IT I ",-% 161" -- C mr.1 Ulu= TO NTIA -PiENINSUL4A. OE "T"Iff-M Are, 7-.771 I if 11 I II!l it I I if if Imn 4w ~S9921 ' >51-tv4~o% PROCEEDINGS AND DEBATES OF THE CNSTITUTIONAL CONVENTION OF THE STATE OF NEW YORK, HELjD IN 1867 AND 1868, IN THE CITY OF ALBANY. REPORTED BY EDWARD F. UNDERHILL, OFFICIAL STENOGRAPHER. VOLUME I. FROM PAGE 1 TO 800, WITH INDEX. ALBANY: WEED, PARSONS AND COMPANY, PRINTERS TO THE CONVENTION. 1868. C^ IN CONVENTION, Feb. 27, 1868. Resolted, That-there be printed, in addition to the number already printed, a sufficient number of copies of the debates, documents and journals, to furnish each of the members with three copies; and also one copy each to the Mayor and the members of the Common Council of the city of Albany, and one copy each to the State Law Libraries at Rochester and Syracuse, the law libraries of the several judicial districts, the Law Institute, the Astor Library, and the New York Historical Society in the city of New York, and the Young Men's Associations of the cities of Albany and Troy. LUTHER CALDWELL, Secretary. R"o1 t Y t 4 I PROCEEDINGS AND DEBATES. ALBANY, Tuesday, June 4, 1867. Pursuant to chapter 194, of the Laws of 1867, being an Act to provide for a Convention to revise and amend the Constitution, passed March 29, 1867, the Delegates duly elected thereto assembled at the Capitol in the city of Albany. At eleven o'clock, A. M., the Convention was called to order by Hon. FRANCIS C. BARLOW, Secretary of State. R ev. W. B. SPRAGUE, D.D., of Albany, addressed the throne of Grace in prayer, in words as follows: Almighty and all gracious Father, we bow before Thee as the God of all the Nations of the earth. Thou liftest up one and puttest down another, and all are alike under Thy control. We recognize Thy gracious providence in the ordering of our lot, ever since our existence as a Nation commenced. We thank Thee that here, while yet this was savage ground, a seed was sown which has sprung up and expanded into a mighty tree, that has sent forth its boughs to the ends of the earth, and whose leaves we believe will be for the healing of the Nations. We thank Thee, that though Thou hast in retribution for our aggravated sins, sometimes inflicted upon us grievous National calamities, yet Thou hast in Thine own best time delivered us out of them, so we are now in the full enjoyment of our liberties and our institutions. We thank Thee specially for the favor with which Thou hast regarded this State in which our lot is cast; and we thank Thee for all " the means of intellectual, moral and Christian 8 culture, which we have here enjoyed. We thank X Thee for all the intelligence, order and social elevation, which here prevail. We thank Thee for the good influence this State has exerted, not merely upon the sister States of the Union, but ) upon other Nations of the globe. We thank Thee for the wisdom of our fathers in which originated the Constitution under which we live, and for the wisdom of their successors by which it has been, from time to time, improved; and for B.K the wisdom of the present generation, which aspires still to amend and, if it may be, to perfect the work of those who have gone before them. And now, we desire gratefully to acknowledge Thine hand in all the propitious circumstances which attend this occasion. We invoke Thy blessing upon this large deliberative assembly, who are assembled for one of the most important purposes which can occupy mortals. We ask, first of all, that Thou would impress them deeply with a sense of the importance of the object which has convened them together, and grant that they may rightly understand their duty and have grace and strength given them faithfully to discharge it; and that they may discharge their duty successfully, wilt Thou grant to them to-day a fresh baptism of the spirit of christian patriotism and good will toward each other; let them realize their responsibility, not only to those whose interests they are immediately charged with, but toward that God who has placed them in this important position. Grant, most merciful Father, that every discussion may be conducted with candor and courtesy and unity, that every measure may be adopted with wisdom, and that the result of all those deliberations may be to add to the stability of our institutions, and also to intensify our influence as a State, and to bring us into more intimate relations with the great Ruler of the world. Now grant that all the members of this Convention may be under Thy gracious care, during their residence in the midst of us, and wilt Thou watch over and preserve their families during the period of their separation from them; and when they shall have accomplished the object of their meeting, may they be returned safely to their homes, rejoicing in Thy goodness-rejoicing in the approval 18 of a good conscience-rejoicing in the approbation of their contemporaries-rejoicing in the assurance that their memories shall be embalmed by a grateful posterity. All these blessings, together with the forgiveness of our sins, we ask in the name of Jesus, our Redeemer — Amen. Hon. ERASTUS CLA.RK, Deputy Secretary of State, then proceeded to call the roll of the Convention. All the delegates responded except the following: Delegates at large.-Homer A. Nelson, Francis Keruan, John Magee. District Delegates.-6th. Abraham D. Russell; 8th. John E. Develin; 10th. Stephen A. Fullerton; 13th. Amasa J. Parker. The Secretary of State then proceeded to administer the constitutional oath to the following delegates: DELEGATES AT LARGE. Waldo Hutchins, William M. Evarts, George Opdyke, Augustine J. H. Duganne, George William Curtis, Horace Greeley, Joshua M. Van Cott, Ira Harris, Erastus Cooke, Martin I. Townsend, William A. Wheeler, Charles Andrews, Tracy Beadle, Charles J. Folger, Erastus S. Proseer, Augustus Frank, Augustus Schell, George Law, Henry C. Murphy, David L. Seymour, Jacob Hardenburgh, Smith M. Weed, Alonzo C. Paige, George F. Comstock, Henry D. Barto, Sanford E. Church, Henry O. Chesebro, Joseph G. Masten, Marshal B. Champlain. ~SENATORIAL DISTRICT DELEGATES. First District.-Selah B. Strong, Solomon Townsend, William Wickham, Erastus Brooks. Second District.-John P. Rolfe, Daniel P. Barnard, Charles Lowrey, Walter L. Livingston. Third District.-Teunis G. Bergen, William D. Veeder, John G. Schumaker, Stephen I. Collahan. Fourth District.-Charles P. Daly, Samuel B. Garvin, Abraham R. Lawrence, Jr., John E. Burrill. Fifth District.-Nathaniel Jarvis, Jr., Elbridge T. Gerry, Henry Rogers, Norman Stratton. Sixth District.-Frederick W. Loew, Gideon J. Tucker, Magnus Gross. Seventh District.-Samuel J. Tilden, Edwards Pierrepont, James Brooks, Anthony L. Robertson. Eighth District.-Richard L. Larremore, Claudius L. Monell, William Hitchman. Ninth District.-Abraham B. Conger, Abraham B. Tappan, Robert Cochran, William H. Morris. Tenth District.-William H. Houston, Clinton V. R. Ludington, Gideon Wales. Eleventh District.-B. Platt Carpenter, John Stanton Gould, Wilson B. Sheldon, Francis Silvester. Twelfth District.-John M. Francis, Jonathan P. Armstrong, Cornelius L. Allen, Adolphus F. HitchcocR. Thirteenth District.-Erastus Corning, William Cassidy, James Roy. Fourteenth District.-Marius Schoonmaker, Solomon G. Young, Manly B. Mattice, Ezekiel P. More. Fifteenth District.-Alembert Pond, Hezekiah Baker, Judson S. Landon, Horace E. Smith. Sixteenth District.-George M. Beckwith, Matthew Hale, Nathan G. Axtell, Andrew J. Cheritree. Seventeenth District.-William C. Brown, Edwin A. Merritt, Leslie W. Russell, Joel J. Seaver. Eighteenth District.-Edward A. Brown, Marcus Bickford, James A. Bell, Milton H. Merwin. Nineteenth District.-Richard U. Sherman, Theodore W. Dwight, Benjamin N. Huntington, George Williams. Twentieth District.-Elijah E. Ferry, John Eddy, Ezra Graves, Oliver B. Beals. Twenty-First District.-Elias Root, Lester M. Case, M. Lindley Lee, Loring Fowler. Twenty-Second District.-Thomas G. Alvord, L. Harris Hiscock, Patrick Corbett, Horatio Ballard. Twenty-Third District.-Elizur H. Prindle, John Grant, Hobart Krum, Samuel F. Miller. Twenty-Fourth. District. —Stephen D. Hand, Charles E. Parker, Oliver H. P. Kinney, Milo Goodrich. Twenty-Fifth District.-George Rathbun, Chas. C. Dwight, Leander S. Ketcham, Ornon Archer. Twenty-Sixth District.-Elbridge G. Lapham, Angus McDonald, Sterling G. Hadley, Melatiah H. Lawrence. Twenty-Seventh District. —Elijah P. Brooks, David Rumsey, Abraham Lawrence, George T. Spencer. Twenty-Eighth District.-Jerome Fuller, Lorenzo D. Ely, William A. Reynolds, Freeman Clark. Twenty-Ninth District.-Seth Wakeman, Levi F. Bowen, Thomas T. Flagler, Ben Field. Thirtieth District.-Edward J. Farnum, Isaac L. Endress, John M. Hammond, William H. Merrill. Thirty-First District.-Israel T. Hatch, Isaac A. Verplanck, Allen Potter, George W. Clinton. Thirty-Second District.-George Barker, Augustus F. Allen, Norman M. Allen, George Van Campen. Mr. FOLGER moved that the Convention do now proceed to elect a president of the Convention, and that two tellers be appointed by the chair to count the votes. Mr. STRONG-I would prefer, as there is but one candidate, that he should be elected by acclamation. The CHAIR-The statute requires that the president shall be elected by ballot. Mr. STRONG-I withdraw my motion. Mr. J. BROOKS-Before we proceed to an election by ballq& for the President of this Convention, I am requested by some of my fellowmembers to say a few words. The minority of the members of this body assembled this morning for consultation, and acting upon the wise precedent which the Legislature of this State established at its last session, deemed it wise to present no particular candidate to this body. This Convention has assembled for an important objectnamely-to revise the organic law of this State. Looking to the proceedings of the Legislature, we have seen with great approbation that that body enacted a law which secured the election of sixteen Republican and sixteen Democratic members throughout the State at large, and thereby gave an admonition, if they did not establish a precedent, which seemed to justify us, or at least to suggest to us that this Constitutional Conveution, about to assemble for the formation of our great organic law, should not be organized for 19 party purposes or for party organization; and though there were precedents to the contrary in the history of the State, yet that action of a Legislature opposed to us in political feeling, was deemed so wise that we have acquiesced in it, and have presented no particular candidate to be voted for by the minority, leaving each member to vote for whomsoever he may please. We have deeply regretted that others have deemed it wise to take a contrary course; and though it is very natural and proper, and no matter of complaint by us that the majority of this body should select its own men for officers, yet, it is matter of regret to us that in a Constitutional Convention, which has met to form the organic law that shall govern this State, the presiding officer should go into the chair so bound down by party ties and party obligations as not to feel himself absolved from the party that created him, and respect the views of the minority represented on the floor of this house. And we have apprehended with fear, and we certainly have a perfect right to fear, from what we have read in this morning's papers of the action of a body that met elsewhere, that the action of this Convention in selecting a presiding officer will be that of a mere party organization, and deprive us in the minority of those equitable and just rights which the minority ought always to have, not only in a legislative body, but more especially in a body like this, whose action will establish for future time the great organic law of this State. And we have the more regretted it, not only that they have elected all the other officers, but particularly one officer in the same manner, who is to be-I will not say the recording angel of this body-but who is to take down every word we utter for the future consideration of those who may come after us, and who wish to consult the Constitution we may frame. We have thought the stenographer of this body, if not the recording angel, should in the spirit of equity and justice make a record which will be free to all and just to all. And though we have no doubt that the officer they have selected will do his duty in justice to all, from his high professional reputation, yet we have deeply regretted that his selection by a party should seem to place him under any party obligations whatsoever, that would make his record more favorable to one side than it would be to the other, in a minority ir. this body. I have deemed it proper to make these few brief remarks prior to the ballots that the minority in this body will give, not at all in censure or condemnation of the majority, but in explanation of the course that we have taken, and as a justification of that course to our people throughout this State. The motion of Mr. Folger was then put to the vote of the Convention, and was declared carried. The Chair appointed as tellers, Mr. Curtis of Richmond, and Mr. Cassidy of Albany. The Convention proceeded to vote for President and the Chair announced the result as follows: The whole number of votes cast was 149, of which William A. Wheeler, received,.......... 100 Henry C. Murphy.................... 9 Amasa J. Parker,..................... 6 Erastus Corning,.................... 4 Sanford E. Church,.............. 4 George F. Comstock,...3.............. 3 S. B. Garvin,......................... 3 Selah B. Strong...................... 2 A. C. Paige..........2.......... 2 G. W. Clinton,..............2...... 2 I. A. Verplanck,................. 2 Samuel J. Tilden,............ 2 I. B. Masteri,......................... 1 G. W. Curtis,......................... 1 I. T. Hatch,............................ 1 C. P. Daly,............................ 1 George Law,.......................... 1 Gideon J. Tucker,...................... 1 Edwards Pierrepont,................... I Marshall B. Champlain,................. 1 Allen Potter,.......................... 1 William A. Wheeler having received a majority of the votes of the Convention, the Chair announced that he was duly elected President of the Convention, and appointed Messrs. Harris and Murphy a committee to conduct the President elect to the chair. On taking his seat the President said: GENTLEMEN OF THE CONVENTION:-With a grateful appreciation of your kind partiality, I enter with unfeigned diffidence upon the discharge of the duties to which, by your ballots, you have assigned me, encouraged, nevertheless, by the conviction that honest efforts faithfully and impartially to administer the trust, will secure to me a just degree of forbearance and support. We are, in the history of our State, the fifth body convened at the command of its sovereign people for the especial consideration of its fundamental law. We are to review, and seek better to adapt to the demands of our time, the work of our predecessors, embracing as well men who carried the direct inspiration of the Revolution into their labors, as many others of a later period whose names gild our historic page, and to all of whose combined patriotism and wisdom we are indebted for the imperial and priceless heritage we enjoy. To remold the organic law of the first Commonwealth of the world, Empire in name and Empire in fact, in which law are to rest the guarantees and safeguards of the rights, the interests and the welfare of our present and future millions of people, is a task challenging our best efforts and our highest wisdom. Of the work confided to us, I will not detain you to speak in specific detail. Prominent however is the devising of means to secure the full benefits of that system of public works so closely interwoven with our growth and prosperity, which has stimulated as well our own as the agriculture of the great West, which has created cities and villages, and made vast contributions to our internal and foreign commerce-the regulation and government of our State institutions and multiform corporations, municipal and other -a wise, just and economic adjustment of State finance-the conferring of such legislative powers as shall insure honest and general legislation, and an improved system of Judiciary which shall supply efficient remedy and prompt redress for every violation of the rights of person or property. But. gentlemen, let us not forget that it is 20 hot in these things alone, that the true life of a State consists. It consists rather, as has been aptly said elsewhere, in that public spirit which is the soul of Commonwealths, without which empire has no glory, and the wealth of nations is a source of corruption and decay. I mean that public spirit best illustrated in our recent great conflict, by the sublime national enthusiasm, the matchless- patience, the heroic strength, and the unstinted sacrifice of blood and treasure, by all of which we rescuec from the toils and grasp of treason our imperiled nationality. A State will be great, prosperous and stable in the degree in which it possesses this spirit. Its germ is free, equal, conscious, intelligent and enfranchised manhood. To develop and foster such manhood is the highest civil duty which can engage the patriotic statesman. We owe it to the inspiration of the age in which we live -we owe it to the cause of universal civil liberty -we owe it to the struggling liberalism of the old world-we owe it to the memories of the myriads of our martyred dead who sleep their last sleep upon countless battle-fields, to make proclamation, by the sovereign majesty of this great State, that every man within the limits of its broad domain, of whatever race or color, or however poor, helpless or lowly he may be, in virtue of his MANHOOD, is entitled to the full enjoyment of every right appertaining to the most exalted citizenship. This done, we have only to secure the means of free, universal education-thus keeping power and intelligence hand in hand-to realize the highest ideals of popular Government. Such, gentlemen, is the mission to which we are called. We ought, rising above the low grounds of partisanship, to inspirit our work with an earnest, whole-souled patriotism, enlivened, regenerated and sanctified by all the trials of the fiery crucible through which we have just passed. It is our exalted privilege to initiate the movement of bringing our State up to the full standard of the theqries of a true Republican Government. In the progress of the march to that destiny to which the God of Nations is unmistakably leading us, we have reached a higher plane of our national life. The duty is laid upon us of reaping from the great struggle through which we have made this advance, such fruits, such influence and such power as shall carry us to the highest attainable points of enlightened and Christian civilization. In this beneficent work, New York should maintain her supremacy among her sister commonwealths, leading in the march of human liberty and human progress, as she led in marshaling the armies which won them for all nations, kindreds, tongues and peoples who take shelter under the folds of the banner of the Republic. Let us,.whose action is so vitally to affect the future of our State, trusting to that Superior Power so signally manifested-in our National behalf in the battling years from which we have just emerged, and with confirmed faith in a Government "of the people, by the people, and for the people," be.true to our trust, true to ourselves, and true to truth. So shall we faithfully meet and wisely discharge the obligations of our day and generation, and advance the growing grandeur of the towering State, whose citizenship is our highest, proud est boast. Again thanking you gentlemen, for your kind consideration, I await your further dleasure. Mr. HARRIS offered the following resolution: Resolved, That Luther Caldwell be and he is hereby appointed Secretary of the Convention. Which was adopted. Mr. CALDWELL thereupon took the Constitutional oath of office which was administered by the President. Mr. FOLGER offered the following resolution; Resolved, That Edward F. Underhill be and he is hereby appointed Stenographer to the Constitutional Convention. Which was adopted. Mr. ELY offered the following resolution: Resolved, That Samuel C. Pierce be and he is hereby appointed Sergeant-at-Arms of this Convention. Which was adopted. Mr. ARCHER offered the following resolution: Resolved, That John H. Kemper be and he is hereby appointed Assistant Sergeant-at-Arms of this Convention. Which was adopted. Mr. SHERMAN offered the following resolution: Resolved, That until the adoption of permanent rules for the regulation of the proceedings of the Convention, the rules of the Assembly of this State be followed as far as they may be applicable; and that a select committee of five be appointed by the President to report a code of rules suited to the wants of the Convention. Which was adopted. MR. BELL offered the following resolution:, Resolved, That tho Secretary be requested to confer with the regular clergy of this city, and request them to make such arrangements, that the daily sessions of this Convention may be opened by prayer. Which was adopted. Mr. HARRIS offered the following resolution: Resolved, That a committee of two members from each judicial district be appointed by. the President, whose duty it shall be to consider and report the best practical mode of proceeding to revise the constitution, which was adopted. MR. SILVESTER-The Legislature in the act which it passed to provide for this Convention to revise and amend the Constitution, provided for the election of certain officers by the Convention, and of the appointment of certain other officers by the President and Secretary. There seems in the act which was passed by the Legislature to be no provision for the appointment of a postmaster for the Convention. Every person familiar with the proceedings of any deliberative body is aware that they have found it necessary for the correct transaction of business to have a postmaster. It will be necessary for us very often to have conference with our constituents, to receive communications from them and send communications to them, and for that purpose a postmaster of this body would be very essential. Undoubtedly the Legislature omitted to provide for the election and appointment of a postmaster through inadvertence. The PRESIDENT-The Chair would imind the gentleman that there is no question: efore the convention. 21 MR. SILVESTER-I propose to introduce the resolution and to preface it with a few remarks showing the pertinency of the resolution. The PRESIDENT-If the gentleman will first offer his resolution and base his remarks upon it, it will be a little more in order. Mr. SILVESTER then offered the following resolution: * Resolved, That Peter J. Hotailing, of Columbia, be and hereby is, appointed Postmaster for this Convention. Mr. GREELEY-I trust this resolution will not be adopted. The PRESIDENT-The gentleman from Columbia has the floor. Mr. SILVESTER-I ask that the body of the memorial that I sent up to the Clerk's desk may be read. The Secretary read the memorial as follows:"The undersigned, members of the Legislature of 1867, hereby testify to the efficiency and strict attention to the duties of his office of Assistant Postmaster to the Assembly, of Mr. Peter J. Hotailing, and we sincerely recommend him to the Constitutional Convention as a suitable person to perform the duties of Postmaster to that body." Mr. SILVESTER -The recommendation of the Legislature bears date subsequently to the act passed to provide for the Convention, showing that the Legislature intended that this Convention should have the benefit of these labors of a Postmaster, although in the act itself they had omitted to provide for the election and appointment of such an officer. Mr. Hotailing seems to have performed these duties to the satisfaction of the Legislature, and is eminently competent to perform the duties of' this body, he having had the experience of a postmaster. Mr. FOLGER —I merely rise to notice a remark made by the gentleman from Columbia [Mr. Silvester] that the omission to provide for a postmaster was through the inadvertence of the Legislature. That subject, sir, was considered in the Committee on Judiciary and in the Committee of Conference upon the bill which has called this body into existence, and it was considered when we provided for a sergeant-at-arms, assistant sergeant-at-arms and eight door-keepers, that we provided for a sufficient force to protect this body from invasion from abroad, and ample force to conduct into and out of it, all the mail matter we might reasonably send to or receive from our constituents. Theoretically, in the Senate of this State, there is no postmaster; but practically, the deputy sergeant-at arms always officiates in that capacity, and supplies every want for an office of that description. Just so in preparing this bill, there was no inadvertence; we thought the deputy sergeant-at-arms might very well, without taking a great deal of time from duties which would necessarily call him elsewhere, conduct the postal department of this Convention as has been done in the Senate. Because, we can readily perceive, that there is quite a difference in the matter of detail of the proceedings of this Convention and the proceedings of the Legislature. Here we deal with generalities for the whole State, and not for special localities, and there will not be so much need of correspondence between us and those we may leave at home, as there wOdt be if we sat here passing one thousand bills, as was done last year. For that reason the committee, and I think the Legislature, thought, that the officers in the bill were amply sufficient to carry out all the duties of this Convention, and the deputy sergeant-at-arms might very well act as postmaster to this body. Then, in addition to that, there is another consideration, and that is, that the Comptroller will not pay this officer, if he should be elected. I knor that he will not pay any money, if it is not provided for in any law, and the law provides forno such office. When the postmaster, if he should be elected, applies to him for payment, he will say: "Where is the act that will allow me to draw my warrant for this upon the Treasurer?" and it will not be found. Mr. SILVESTER-In respect to the observation that the Comptroller will; not pay the postmaster if elected, I Would- merely answer in reply, that the Convention Of 1846, I believe, elected several officers who had not been provided for in the act, and a subsequent LegislMilre provided for the payment of those officers. ''I suppose the same rule could be adopted in thi4soas; and this gentleman, if he be elected, or: any" gentleman elected or appointed Postmaster; twotld. run the risk of being paid by the Legislaturi. I did not suppose it was necessary to protectrus from invasion from abroad. I do not want any further legislation with that view, but it -.was rather to further invasion by the people and'to'get suggestions of their views. Mr. GREELEY- I trust that this Convention will not commence its labors by violating the laws of the State, in regard to the officers provided for. Certainly eight door-keepers must be four too many, and two sergeants-at-arms at least one too many, and we could spare one of these officers who could act as postmaster. I trust that this resolution will not pass. Mr. STRATTON offdred the following amendment to the resolution offered by Mr. Silvester: Resolved, That the Deputy Sergeant-at-Arms be and he is hereby instructed to discharge the duties of Postmaster of Convention. Which was adopted. Mr. SHERMAN offered the following amendment to the amendment offered by Mr. Stratton: "And that the Sergeant-at-arms detail from among the messengers a sufficient number to act as assistants and messengers to the Postmaster." Which was adopted. The question was taken on the resolution offered by Mr. Silvester, as amended, and it was declared adopted. Mr. FOLGER offered the following resolution: Resolved, That when the Convention adjourns this day, it adjourn until 4 o'clock P. M., and that there be a session beginning at that hour for the purpose of drawing for seats in such manner as shall be determined. Which was adopted. Mr. FULLER offered the following resolution: Resolved, That until otherwise determinedthis Convention will meet in this Assembly Chamber daily at 11 o'clock, A. M. Which was adopted. 22 The Constitutional oath of office was then ad- informed, when I state that, under the law by ministered by the President to Samuel C. Pierce, which we are organized, a manual will be laid Sergeant at Arms, John H. Kemper, assistant upon our desks which will contain in substance, Sergeant at Arms, and Edward F. Underhill, and I believe in form, an entire answer to the Stenographer to the Convention. resolution of the gentleman from Westchester. Mr. GREELEY-I desire to offer the following (Mr. Greeley). Each and every requisite of that resolution of inquiry, which if it is held to be too resolution is answered in that manual, which soon, I will withdraw it. I will read the resolu- will be laid upon our table in a very few days. I tion and then make a few remarks. trust the gentleman will consent that his resoluResolved, That the Comptroller be requested to tion shall lie on the table. It strikes me that the prepare and communicate to this Convention a passage of this resolution, under these circumtabular statement showing: stances, must necessarily increase the expense to 1. The original cost of the several canals of the State, and for that reason also I trust the this State, including that of any enlargement or gentleman will consent that his resolution lie on extension thereof. the table. I wish to say a few words more. I 2. The aggregate cost of each canal as afore- do not think with the gentleman from Westchessaid, including the superintendence, repairs and ter, (MR. GREELEY) that the Democratic party legal interest on the cost of construction up to acting either here, through their representatives the close of the last fiscal year. upon this floor, or as part and parcel of the peo3. The aggregate receipts or income of each ple of the State of New York, will be inclined canal computed in like manner. under any and every circumstance to go against 4. The net cost (or profit) of each canal up to the adoption of a Constitution which shall be the close of the last fiscal year. made by this body. I believe, if we go in the 5. The annual receipts or income of the State right spirit to work, and frame a Constitution to from each canal, with the annual cost of superin- subserve the great interests of the people of the tendence and repair, respectively of such canals State of New York, that the Democratic party up to the close of the last fiscal year. represented here will vote in favor of that ConThe gentleman from New York, (Mr. Brooks) stitution, and that the Party at the polls will who has addressed this Convention I think rather respond to the action of their representatives. I out of season, made some remarks as to party move, sir, that for the present, the resolution of aspects of organization, which I wish to say a the gentleman from New York do lie on the table. word about in speaking to this resolution. I Mr. TILDEN-Will the gentleman withdraw offered. this in endeavoring to get the clearest his motion for a moment, in order that I may and fullest statement possible with regard to make a single observation? our canals, being determined to act here with Mr. ALVORD-AswI do not wish to stifle debate, the most entire independence of party upon this I will withdraw it. as upon every other question, with a single view Mr. TILDEN-Mr. President: The observations to the best interests of the whole people of the which my friend, the delegate from Westchester, State. I was among the gentlemen who met here (Mr. Greeley), has deemed it proper to make to last evening to consult and consider the proper this Convention, seem to require that, in behalf of mode of organization of this Convention. I did so those like myself-(and I speak for myself, and as I could not have done otherwise, simply because for a few others whose opinions on this subject I I believed from observing the facts all around me know) we should be allowed to say, as we do say, throughout the last two or three years, that the that we have met here upon this occasion under Democratic party of this State did not consider it the sworn duty which we have assumed, to diswise, —or perhaps I should say timely-now to charge that duty in good faith, and to the best of enter upon the work of revising the Constitution our ability. And, sir, I do not hesitate to say that of our State. They had a perfect right so to it would not be good faith for men to come here believe. I met them at the polls acting in this determined before hand to vote against whatever spirit, and I found them in the press acting in the wisdom and deliberation of this Convention this spirit, and, in my judgment, if there had been might finally determine to adopt. If I were disa Democratic majority in the Legislature last win- posed, as I am not at this period of the discuster, no Convention would now be assembled, or sion, to retort, I might be inclined to say, that this year held. I regard as imposed on the if thp gentleman knows there is to be put into Republican majority of this Convention the duty this Constitution what we ought not to or cannot of revising the Constitution. I apprehend when support, then we would be warranted in coming we meet at the polls, no matter what the Consti- to the conclusion he has stated. Not othertution shall be, it will be boldly confronted by the wise, sir. Whether it be wise or otherwise that general opposition of the party which is not in the this body should assemble-whether it is the majority in this Convention. I think with refer- most opportune and auspicious occasion in which ence to that fact, that the action of this Conven- the people of the State of New York should assemtion-the Constitution as we shall frame it-will ble in their original sovereignty to form a new fundabe met with a political party opposition, no matter mental law-upon that question undoubtedly there what it shall contain. I deem it necessary and have been very grave doubts entertained. Very proper that the political majority in this Conven- wide differences of opinion, if this be the most fittion shall take upon themselves the labor and re- ting and auspicious occasion to undertake this sponsibility of organization, and, if I may say so, work, have been entertained. But it is enough of directing its action. that it is undertaken, and it is our duty here, Mr. ALVORD-I believe, sir, I am correctly acting in a spirit of the largest good faith, to 23 endeavor to make that work as perfect as it is possible for this body to make it. If, then, it fails to be such as we can give our support to, we shall undoubtedly express our opposition to the conclusions and the labors of this Convention, in a way that is not only our right, but our duty to do. Mr. President, I see around me a large number of men, not of my own political associations, in whose integrity, in whose honor, and in whose sense of public duty, I have the greatest confidence. I do not think that we ought, any of us to act-I do not think that those gentlemen ought to act-I do not think that those even who have been most despairing of good results in reference to the proceedings of this Convention ought to act upon any presumption beforehand that this Convention is to be a failure. If we think so let us adjourn tomorrow and go home. If, on the other hand, we are to make a fair trial-if we are to make an experiment in good faith, to improve the organic law of the State-let us not begin with any mutual misconception of each others motives. Let us not assume that the majority of this Convention have determined before hand to put anything into it that will secure our opposition, and let them not suppose that we are determined to make this opposition whatever they may put in. Sir, I think it extremely probable that there are many questions here upon which party lines as they now exist in this State will not be distinctly drawn. I think there will be many questions upon which gentlemen will act with independence, with candor, and with wisdom, and I simply make these observations for the purpose that there should be no misunderstanding and no misconception of the position which I, for one, occupy, and I know of many others who think with me on these questions. The PRESIDENT-The resolution giving rise to debate will lie on the table under the rules. Mr. E A. BROWN —I rise to say that the gentleman who has charge of the manual states that one volume is printed, and is ready to be laid on tle table of members. The PRESIDENT.-The Chair would inform the gentleman from Lewis, (Mr. E. A. Brown), that there is no question before the Convention. Mr. GOULD offered the following resolution: Resolved, That a Committee be appointed to prepare in bill-form a copy of the present State Constitution, to be printed with open spaces for interlineation and memoranda and with such comparative notes and references as may be found practicable. Mr. GOULD-My object in introducing the resolution I will now state. On going to the office of the Secretary of State I saw and examined the manual as prepared. I found Dr. Hough, the Secretary of the commission appointed under the law, had for his own private information prepared a document such as is called for by the resolution. On looking it over, it seemed to me most admirably calculated to facilitate the business of this Convention. It has under the sections of our present Constitution all the corresponding provisions of all other Constitutions of the States. Such examinations and comparisons will frequently have to be made, and it struck me that it would facilitate the labors of the Convention to have such a document. I am informed that under the law this cannot be printed in the Manual unless it have the special sanction by resolution of this body, and I have, therefore, offered the resolution with that view. The question was taken on Mr. Gould's resolution and it was declared adopted. Mr. FOLGER-I wish to offer an amendment to the resolution of the gentleman from Westchester, (Mr. Greeley) which may lie over with the original, under the rule. Mr. GREELEY-I wish it understood that I will accept all amendments. The CLERK read the amendment offered by Mr. Folger, as follows: Add thereto the following: " And a table which will show with how much each so-called lateral canal should be credited for its contributions to the revenues of this State, which, in the yearly official tables and reports, are credited to the Erie canal. Mr. HATCH offered the following amendment to the resolution offered by Mr. Greeley: Add " and also the amount of outstanding canal debt and when due, and when the same would be paid, taking as a basis of calculation the future average of our toll receipts for the last seven years." The amendment laid over under the rule. Mr. LARREMORE offered the following resolution: Resolved, That the privileges of the floor of this Convention be and the same are hereby extended to the members of the former State Conventions who may be temporarily in this city. Which was adopted. On motion of Mr. WEED, the Convention took a recess till four o'clock P. M. AFTERNOON SESSION. The Convention reassembled at four o'clock. The CLERK read the resolution under which the Convention had taken a recess. Mr. SHERMAN offered the following resolution: Resolved, That the drawing for seats, assigned as the business of the present session, be adopted according to the mode usually practiced in the Assembly, viz.: 1. Folded ballots to be prepared, each containing the name of a member. 2. These ballots to be examined and compared with the official list by a Committee of two, to be appointed for that purpose by the President. 3. The ballots to be placed in a box, and thoroughly shaken in presence of the Convention. 4. The members then to retire outside the bar. 5. A person other than a member or officer to be designated by the President to draw the ballots. 6. Each ballot as drawn to be handed to the President, and to be opened by him; then handed to the Clerk who shall announce the name drawn. 7. The person whose name shall be drawn, to select his seat and to occupy it till the completion of the drawing, under penalty of forfeiture if vacated. 8. The drawing to continue in this manner till concluded. Mr. CONGER-It may not be expedient at this time to suggest any modification of the resolution, 24 which has doubtless been prepared in accordance with the wishes of the majority of this Convention, but it seems to me, and I desire to draw the attention of the gentlemen present to the fact, that we are not constituted as the Assembly, that we are not here to-day representing Assembly districts, but in obedience to the high behests of the Legislature of the State we are here as the representatives of the various Senatorial districts. It seems to me, therefore, proper, that some regard should be had, in the drawing of seats, to the manner in which this body is constituted, and that instead of drawing the seats as individual rights, we should draw seats to represent the Senatorial districts here represented. And this would add vastly to the convenience of the gentlemen representing one district. Had the old rule prevailed in the construction of this body, then every gentleman here present would be representing an Assembly district, and as such would have a paramount right to his seat as an individual representative of an individual district. But if I understand the meaning and purpose of the law by which we come together here, we represent, four, five, six or eight of us, as the case may be, one single Senatorial district. 1 would, therefore, respectfully suggest, and move as an amendment, in order to try the temper and sense of the Convention on this subject, in reference to the manner in which we are constituted as a body, that the seats be drawn so as to represent Senatorial Districts, and that the gentlemen who are entitled to, and do represent, Senatorial Districts, take the number of seats which belong to them as of right. I don't know how this proposition may strike other gentlemen, but for myself I would be pleased to be associated with all the gentlemen representing my Senatorial District. I have no predilections as to their political opinions whatever. The gentleman who this morning spoke for Westchester, (Mr. Greeley) is my associate in the representation of that District-the Ninth Senatorial District. The Delegates at large have been so distributed, that in New York many gentlemen represent the Senatorial Districts there. In the case of the Ninth Senatorial District, besides those selected by the people-four in number-there are gentlemen here as Delegates at Large, representing that district, and I should like for purposes of conference and for the convenience of the discussion of local interests, to have these gentlemen brought together in such a way that it would be more convenient for them to consult together. With entire respect to the gentleman who offers this resolution, and I trust, with due delicacy, as representing those who have been described here this morning, as in the minority, I still feel with great confidence that this Convention will remember its constitution and the manner in which it is constituted, and that those gentlemen do not stand here in their individual rights as representing mere localities, but unitedly, Senatorial Districts. I submit my proposition in the shape of an amendment. The CLERK read the amendment as follows: That the drawing of seats be for each Senatorial District represented in this Convention, and that the members of such district select their seats according to their discretion. Mr. SHERMAN-The plan I have offered seems to me as fair as any that could be adopted, and it is one that is equally practicable, while the one which the gentleman from Rockland [Mr. Conger] has suggested seems to me not to be practicable. And the one I have offered is as fair to the minority as it is to the majority. If the gentleman. however, can offer one which is at the same time to be fair and practicable, I shall be very glad to hear and to adopt it in the place of my own. Mr. GREELEY-It seems to me the proposition would be just as fair to allow the Senatorial districts to draw in the same manner, and then allow the gentlemen here present each of them to take their seats upon that drawing. It would shorten the balloting very much, as we should have but thirty-two ballots to be drawn. I think the proposition of the gentleman from Rockland [Mr. Conger] is certainly fair and practicable, and we should get through much sooner, and in that way we could allow gentlemen to take their seats together or separate as they may choose. Mr. WEED-May I ask the gentleman from Westchester (Mr. Greeley) what district he represents? Mr. GREELEY-I say that I would take my chance with the gentleman from the Ninth Senatorial district. Mr. WEED-There are no representatives from the Senatorial districts, except the four especially elected. Because I happen to live in a Senatorial district, or because a gentleman happens to live in a Senatorial district, and is elected upon the ticket at large, he is not the Delegate of that Senatorial district, nor has the special charge of that Senatorial district upon his hands. It seems to me that the amendment of the gentleman from Rockland [Mr. Conger] is perfectly impracticable. Under the plan suggested in the original resolution, each member here when his name is drawn will be authorized to choose his seat in that part of the house that suits him best. The room is not so large but that, during the deliberations, the members from any Senatorial District can consult with each other. Mr. M. L TOWNSEND-I hope the original resolution may prevail I know it would be agreeable in a social point of view, that gentlemen who come from the same locality and who are acquaintances, should be seated together, but I doubt whether the influence of such coteries and associations would be beneficial upon the deliberations of this body. We have seen this morning that in the minds of some, there is a disposition to make party decisions, while other minds seem to be measurably free from it. I believe we shall be more likely to keep ourselves aloof from such considerations if we commingle with each other freely without reference to our previous politics or previous locations. I think it is the case in every Senatorial district that the gentlemen from that Senatorial district are all of the same politics-I mean those elected from the Senatorial districts-with one exception through, out the entire State. We find there is one gentleman from the city of New York who seems to have been elected, of different politics than that of the other three members, from that district. In other cases you will put the four men agree 25 ing inpolitics side by side. And these men have Mr. FRANK announced that himself and colnone of the results produced upon their minds league had compared the ballots with the list of which would be produced if men of different poli- delegates, and had found the same to be correct. tics were thrown side by side, hap-hazard. I do Delegates then withdrew without the bar of the not believe in coming into this Convention with Convention, when the drawing of seats was proa feeling that it is undesirable that we mingle ceeded with to its completion. together, men who have been Democrats, or On motion of Mr. AXTELL, the Convention adwho have been Republicans, to exchange ideas journed. with each other. I trust that if there is any mode by which this clanishness can be prevented in this Convention, that mode may be adopted. I WEDNESDAY, June 5, 1867. am as pleasantly situated in my associations ast p nt to a nmn any man can be or would like to be, certainly as The onveon pursuant to adjournment. much so as any man coming from any other part Praer was offered b Rev. T. F. MORROW of the State, but I don't believe it is best for me The Journal of the previous day was read. or my friends that we should isolate ourselves in andapproved. this Convention, and sit together as a clan, instead Mr. A. D. RUSSELL, a delegate, appeared in of bein separatethe Convention and took the constitutional oath Mr. TILDEN-The re seems to be some misap-of office, which was administered by the Presiprehension on the part of the delegates in refer- Mr. FRANCIS offered the following resolution: ence to the original proposition of the gentleman Resolved, That the Secretary be directed to from Oneida [Mr. Sherman]; it is not that seats cause the removal of the temporary partitions on be assigned according to drawing, but by the he south side of the Assembly Chamber, conchoice of the individual drawn. I confess it esth of the seml am r n seems to me that the original proposition is thnecting with the room of the sergeant-at-arms and seems to me that the original proposition is the cloak room, in order to furnish additional light best. It will give me great pleasure to have and air to that portion of the chamber seat among the delegates that come from my own Mr. C. C. DWIGHT offered the following amendlocality, but I think it is very well that we should mentbe all shaken up together, and "commingled," as And to extend the railing constituting the bar my friend says. I think we are not any of us here of the house, to the pillar next the chimney. to represent geographical districts in any peculiar Which was adopted. and exclusive sense. I don't think there is any- The question then recurred on the resolution of thing in the circumstance that we are some of us Mr. Francis, as amended, and it was declared to elected from certain Senatorial districts instead of be adopted. Assembly districts to determine us to depart from Mr. FRANCIS offered the following resolution: the method adopted in the Convention of 1846, and Resolved, That a committee of three be appointin the Assembly since. On the whole, I cannoted by the President t inquire upon what terms say I have any special preference for, or objection full, verbatim, reports of the debates and proto, the proposition of the gentleman from Rock- ceedings of this Convention may be published in land [Mr. Conger], but I think the other system is two or more daily papers of this city. preferable, besides having the force of usage and Which was adopted. prescription in its favor. But this proposition is Mr. TAPPAN offered the following resolunot complete, as it does not include the cases of tion: Delegates at large, and will not be unless it be Resolved, That the Secretary of the Convention amended so that Delegates at Large can be as- be and lie is hereby directed to supply each mem sumed to be representatives of the particular Sen- ber of the Convention with a copy of the proceedatorial districts in which they happen to reside. ings of theConstitutionalConventionof 1846, and With that amendment it would be adequate to the to apply to the Comptroller for the payment of purpose. There would then, perhaps, be some con- the expense thereof. fusion in regard to four or five delegates from the Mr. CORBITT - I would like to ascertain, Mr. Senatorial districts in assigning them their seats. President, if it is possible, how many members of The other is the simpler and most direct mode the Convention have already copies of the proor the one most usual, and in my judgment on the ceedings of the Convention of 1846. I am i-. whole matter, better adapted to the purpose. formed by my colleagues that most of us have The question was taken on the amendment of copies. Mr. Conger and was declared to be lost. Mr. FOLGER moved to lay the resolution on The question then recurred on the original the table. resolution of Mr. Sherman, and it was declared to Which was carried. be carried. Mr. POND offered the following resolution: Mr. WEED moved that delegates residing in a Resolved, That a Committee of five be appointed Senatorial district be authorized to draw seats for by the chair to inquire and report upon the expeany delegate from that district who might be diency of adjourning this Convention to Saratoga. absent at the drawing, which was carried. Mr. BICKFORD moved to lay the resolution on The Chair appointed, under the resolution of the table. Mr. Sherman, Mr. Frank and Mr. Weed to Mr. POND —Mr. President-.. compare the ballots prepared with the list of The PRESIDENT-The resolution giving rise delegates. to debate, it will lie over under the rule. Mr. S. W. FULLERTON, a delegate to the Con- MR. ANDREWS-Mr. PRSItNT: It devolves vention, appeared and took the Constitutional oath. upon me to make formal announcement to this 4 26 Convention, of the decease, last evening, of one of the members of this body, by a sudden and wholly unexpected event, And thus it is, that death already, within our limited circle, has asserted its dominion over the race; and, sir, I am so oppressed with the suddenness and appalling character of the event to which I have referred, that I am utterly unable properly to express to this Convention the feelings which it suggests. I make this announcement, sir, as one of the colleagues of the deceased, with whom I have always been on intimate personal, and intimate professional relations, and whom I accompanied to this city, well knowing that he deeply felt the responsibility resting upon him, in common with the other members of this Convention in respect to the important work which has been confided to it. In the very vigor of his life, and in the prime of his manhood, this delegate has been stricken down in death, and his presence -no longer will be seen or felt among us. He was a native of the county of Onondaga, which sent him accredited to this Convention. He had lived there during his whole life up to this time, and has ever been trusted and honored by the citizens of his native county, not only in respect to the local positions which he has held, but in respect to wider fields of public trust, to which he has been assigned. He was first elected as Surrogate of the county of Onondaga, and with diligence and fidelity discharged the duties of that position. He was afterwards, two years ago, assigned to a wider sphere of public action, having been sent to represent his own Assembly District in the Legislature of the State. He came here without experience, but a knowledge of his professional character gave him a position upon one of the most important Committees of the House,-that of the Judiciary,-and by circumstances which prevented the personal attention during a great share of the session of the chief of that Committee, upon him was devolved during the first term of his legislative experience to a considerable extent the molding and shaping of the legislation of the State. He was returned again the last winter as a representative of his district to the Assembly of this State, and the rare intelligence and the industry which he had previously brought to the positions which had been assigned him the first year, properly led to his designation as the chairman of the Committee upon the Judiciary. And, sir, there are many gentlemen here present who can testify to his wisdom, to his industry, and to his intelligence as the chief and leading member of that committee during the last year. I do not propose, sir, to enter at length into any statements in refereqce to the character of the deceased. I can say that, while he was not distinguished for brilliant qualities, he had those substantial traits of character which ever gave him influence and position in the community where he was known, and those will be the sincerest mourners at his grave who have known him longest and best, and who have been enabled by their knowledge thus derived of him, to place upon his character that just estimate to which it was entitled. But that career which had opened so auspiciously for him, h s been suddenly terminated, and, it seems to me that this event may not be without its proper lesson upon those of this body who remain. Our work is left, although he shall take no share in its responsibilities, and we may perhaps be led to greater soberness and earnestness, in the performance of the important work which has been assigned to this body. And moreover we may be all led to cherish still more sacredly than we ever have before the principle that our liberties, our lives, and our property are due and owing to the constant recognition, under all circumstances, of the supremacy of the law. I forbear to continue these remarks. I have said what I have been able to say in justice to a friend, in justice to a public spirited and high-minded citizen, and I leave it to other members of this Convention to indicate such course of action as shall be deemed appropriate by it under these circumstances. Mr. ALVORD-1 have, sir, for a long time been in the habit of occasionally coming from my native county as its representative, upon the floor of the Legislature of this State, at this city, but never, sir, through the whole history of my life, have I been called upon until now, to speak upon an occasion like this, and I deeply feel the great weight that rests upon me; because, more than a colleague, more than with me, a native of my native county, I have lost an honored and a dear personal friend. In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, without any consciousness of the effort that was made to destroy his life, he sank at once, without an exclamation, into the arms of death. Sir, we are about to bear his remains from here back to the county that gave him birth; we are about to bear them to the arms of that family, who have surrounded him in the past, and who have looked up to him with confidence and with hope and with love; and it is necessary also for me to say to this Convention that we bear him not only to those who are attached to him by blood, but we bear him to a family of mourners of almost the entire population of the city of his residence and of the county of his birth. Deservedly high, sir, he stood in the estimation of the people of that county; deservedly high he stood in the estimation of all who ever approached him, and I trust in the God that rules over us, that the warning which has been given by his sudden departure from amongst us, will teach us that " in the midst of life we are in death," and will so impress upon our minds the necessity of doing what shall remain for us to do in this world, that we shall do it diligently and well. Mr. Hiscock, sir, was born in the town of Pompey, in the county of Onondaga, in the year 1824. The son of a farmer, commencing in early life, under the necessities that crowded around the family, as a laborer in the field, but soon emerging from that position, anxious and desirous to permit his intellect to grow and expand, he stood outside of the family circle, and with his own hands, and with the work of his own brain, brought himself to the position which he occupied but yesterday. Sir, upon him had leaned those brothers of his, younger than him in years, and he had brought them up alongside with him, also to the position of eminence and honor in our midst. He has been 27 eminently sir, from tho beginning, to the end of his career, a self made man, working out with his own intellect and with his own arm, all positions which have been given him. I cannot add upon this occasion anything more than what has been said by my colleague in reference to Mr. Hiscock, and I leave with him also, to the body of this Convention, such course as they shall deem proper to take upon this occasion. Mr. WEED -To receive the tidings of the death of a friend, stricken down under any circumstances, is sad and appalling; but to have that friend stricken down, as it were. by your side, in health, in the full vigor of manhood, is terrible. Last evening the deceased was for a few moments before his death, in intimate, friendly conversation with myself, in the full vigor of his manhood, and in full health and strength, when in a moment the ball of the assassin laid him low. As has been well said by his associates, and those who have known him intimately from his boyhood, the effect upon a friend is such that words will not come at his bidding; but, as a friend, and, as one who, though living in a distant part ofthe State, has been for the last two years intimately connected with him, I deem it my duty at this time to bear my tribute-my poor tribute-to his memory. He, for the two past years, has been a member of that body of the Legislature of this State that has held its sessions in this Hall, and I too have had the honor of a seat here during those two years. Differing widely upon many questions that came before that body, still, from the first until the last, our relations have been intimate and of the most friendly and kindly character, and I here, at this time, bear tribute to his ability, his honorable deportment, his noble heart and his kind and gentlemanly ways. I deeply regret that this sudden act should have taken from this body one who would have been a valuable member in it. As the substantial head for the past two years of the law Committee of the Assembly of the State of New York, his duties there were arduous and responsible, but by his untiring industry and his ability he performed them satisfactorily to that body, and I believe satisfactorily to himself and his friends. As I have already said, not only my legislative relations with the deceased have been of the most friendly character, but my personal relations have also been equally friendly, and I fully concur in the sympathy expressed by those who have been fortunate enough to have lived in the same community with him for all, or nearly all, his life. I, Mr. President, one with the passions and frailties that mankind is heir to, do not at this time feel to judge harshly of him, who, in violation of the laws of God and man, has seen fit to strike from existence our friend. The laws of man say, that man shall not be the judge of his own real or supposed wrongs; the laws of God say, "Vengeance is mine." He who last night shot down our friend violated both. We do not and can not ever know the thoughts and secrets of the heart of our friend; his life is closed, his heart is still, his manly form will soon be placed beneath the sod forever. We do not know the passion, the frenzy of him who struck the fatal blow, but we do know, and I feel it my duty here to say, that I believe that I know, that none but a coward heart would have planned, and none but a murderous hand would have inflieted, upon an unwarned victim, the blow such as was struck upon this our friend. I, with the colleagues of him who has departed, leave it for this body to take such action upon this matter, as they may see fit. Mr. FOLGER offered the following resolutions: Resolved, That this Convention assembling this day in sorrow for the sudden and violent death of one of its members, the Hon. L. Harris Hiscock, wil4 as a mark of respect for the dead, when it adjourn, adjourn until Tuesday, the 11th inst., at 11 o'clock A. M. Resolved, That a committee of eight be appointed by the Chair, to accompany his remains to the place of his late residence, and to represent this body at the place of sepulchre. Resolved, That the officers and members of this body do wear the usual badge of mourning for thirty days, and that the flag upon the capitol be held at half-mast until after the burial. Mr. GREELEY-The long adjournment which is provided for in the resolution is the only part to which I object. The rest I wish to have passed unanimously. I simply desire to have that part proposing a long adjournment stricken out, which will leave the remainder to be passed by a unanimous vote. I trust we will have our committees appointed before we make such adjournment. The PRESIDENT -Will the gentleman from Westchester [Mr. Greeley] reduce his amendment to V`V'riting? Mr. GREELEY-I simply ask for a division of the question-to leave out the part providing for a long adjournment, and take a vote upon the rest. Mr. E. BROOKS - I hope, Mr. President, there will be no division upon the question. I think that the appalling tragedy which has just taken place must so impress itself on the minds of every member of thLQ Convention that the interval of time which is suggested by the resolution that has been submitted will produce no delay in the proper deliberations of this body, and will result, individually, to the good of each of. its members. I think there will be no unnecessary delay, because the President of this body is already charged with the appointment. of the respective Committees of this Convention, and during the interval of time between now and Tuesday next, those committees can be as well prepared, or will be properly prepared and considered by the President of this bod 'y. Sir, there is a great deal to be done, I know, in this convention. I hope it will be - done with that deliberation, consideration, and care, which become the objects which have convened us together. I believe in a proper diligence in business. I believe in doing what w& do, wisely and welL I do not think that either the necessities of our constituents, or the public interests at large, will suffer by the adoption of the resolution as, it has, been submitted by the gentleman from Ontario. [Mr. Folger.] Mr. GREELEY.-The fact is exactly opposite from what the gentleman frora Richmond [Mr. B. duty here to say, that I believe that I know, that none but a coward heart would have planned, and none but a murderous hand would have inflicted, upon an unwarned victim, the blow such as was struck upon this our friend. I, with the colleagues of him who has departed, leave it for this body to take such action upon this matter, as they may see fit. Mr. FOLGER offered the following resolutions: Resolved, That this Convention assembling this day in sorrow for the sudden and violent death of one of its members, the Hon. L. Harris Hiscock, will, as a mark of respect for the dead, when it adjourn, adjourn until Tuesday, the 11th inst., at 11 o'clock A. M. Resolved, That a committee of eight be appointed by the Chair, to accompany his remains to the place of his late residence, and to represent this body at the place of sepulchre. Resolved, That the officers and members of this body do wear the usual badge of mourning for thirty days, and that the flag upon the capitol be held at half-mast until after the burial. Mr. GREELEY-The long adjournment which is provided for in the resolution is the only part to which I object. The rest I wish to have passed unanimously. I simply desire to have that part proposing a long adjournment stricken out, which will leave the remainder to be passed by a unanimous vote. I trust we will have our committees appointed before we make such adjournment. The PRESIDENT — Will the gentleman from Westchester [Mr. Greeley] reduce his amendment to writing? Mr. GREELEY-I simply ask for a division of the question-to leave out the part providing for a long adjournment, and take a vote upon the rest. Mr. E. BROOKS- I hope, Mr. President, there will be no division upon the question. I think that the appalling tragedy which has just taken place must so impress itself on the minds of every member of this Convention that the interval of time which is suggested by the resolution that has been submitted will produce no delay in the proper deliberations of this body, and will result, individually, to the good of each of its members. I think there will be no unnecessary delay, because the President of this body is already charged with the appointment of the respective Committees of this Convention, and during the interval of time between now and Tuesday next, those committees can be as well prepared, or will be properly prepared and considered by the President of this body. Sir, there is a great deal to be done, I know, in this convention. I hope it will be done with that deliberation, consideration, and care, which become the objects which have convened us together. I believe in a proper diligence in business. I believe in doing what we do, wisely and welL I do not think that either the necessities of our constituents, or the public interests at large, will suffer by the adoption of the resolution as it has been submitted by the gentleman from Ontario. [Mr. Folger.] Mr. GREELEY.-The fact is exactly opposite from what the gentleman from Richmond [Mr. E, t 28 Brooks] supposes. The President of this Convention is not authorized to appoint committees; we do not know what committees we are to have; we have simply provided for a general committee to divide the labors of the Convention. That Committee is to be appointed to lay out the work for the Convention before the President will be in a position to consider what Committees are to be appointed. I therefore say that we are not ready to make this long adjournment now. If we had the labors of the Convention divided and the number ands character of the Committees settled now, so that the President could take upon himself to appoint the Committees, I should feel that the proposed adjournment would not be a public calamity, but to adjourn at this stage of the proceedings, I think, would be. I have therefore asked for a division of the question, and that the question be taken first upon the resolution of the gentleman from Ontario [Mr. Folger], except this portion which provides for an adjournment of nearly a week. I think I have a right to the division. The PRESIDENT-The chair recognises the right of the gentleman from Westchester [Mr. GreeleyJ to call for a division. Mr. M. I TOWNSEND offered the following amendment to the resolutions: "Insert after the word 'Hiscock' the words, 'stricken down by the hands of an assassin.'" Mr. RATHBUN - Mr. President, whatever our individual opinion may be upon this subject, is one thing. What we, as individuals, think upon this subject, we have the right to think, but I do believe, sir, that it is politic or proper for this Convention to decide upon a question which belongs to the courts of law, and not to the Convention. We forget that when this Convention, by the amendment, attempts to determine whether this was an assassination, that to do so would be transcending the duties which belong to it. We should recollect that this very act is an admonition to us to leave the law to determine the question Mr. WEED-I regret exceedingly that any amendment has been offered to the resolutions. I regret that any supposed necessities for hurrying business should have caused this discussion at this time. I trust the gentleman from Rensselaer [Mr. M. I. Townsend] will withdraw his amendment, so as to relieve the Convention upon that matter. As the gentleman from Westchester [Mr. Greeley] has spoken with reference to the business of the Convention as a reason why an earlier day should be fixed for the reassembling of the Convention after the proposed adjournment, I trust the Convention will pardon me for making a brief answer to the statement. As I understand the doings of this Convention, the Committee to be appointed by the President, (which was voted for yesterday) will report to this Conyention what Committees it shall have. That Committee has not yet been appointed for want of time, and it is a very important part of the du'ty of the Convention. If this adjournment is made till TuesdSy, it will be none too long for that Committee to digest and determine its plans, and when they report to the Convention, it will save the time of delegates by the care which the Committee have given, in determining upon the plans they are to report. I, therefore, trust the division will be voted down and the resolutions as they were offered by the gentleman from Ontario, will be passed unanimously. Mr. M. I. TOWNSEND-Mr. President, I offered the amendment presented by myself, partly in justice to my own feelings and partly from a remark which fell from one of the gentlemen, the precise tenor of which I am unable now to remember; but with a view of having it understood that this Convention was willing to call the assassination of one of its members by the real name that it ought to bear, I am one of those that believe in the enforcement of the laws, and for myself, no mawkish sensibility will prevent me, or ever has prevented me, from desiring to see those who commit the largest crimes meet with the punishment which is their just due. Since this horrid tragedy has come to my ears this morning, I have fancied to myself the gradual fading out of the horror of crime in the public mind, and that perhaps this man, if convicted, may, through the philosophers and philanthropists of the world, be placed in a situation where, instead of being considered an assassin, be esteemed a hero. But gentlemen whose wishes and feelings I am not at liberty to disregard, have solicited me to withdraw my amendment, and in deference to the feelings of others, and in no deference to my own judgment as to what this Convention owes to itself, I withdraw the amendment. Mr. FOLGER-If the committee will grant permission to withdraw my resolutions I will do so, and so amend the first that it shall provide that the Convention do now adjourn, which will obviate any objection to their immediate adoption. My reason for providing for an adjournment to a day so late, was this: I had supposed that the President of the Convention would be ready this morning to announce the Committee of Sixteen, and the Committee on Rules; I had supposed that those. Committees would sit during the interval, and that they would apprise the President to what conclusion they had come, so that he would know about how many committees the Convention would probably have on the coming in of their report, and that he, in the interval of our session, would be able to arrange in his mind the places of the several members of this body upon those committees. I knew that it had always been the custom of Legislative bodies to have an adjournment for a day or more, and sometimes for three days, to allow an opportunity for the presiding officer to make up the committees, and I had supposed that my resolution would chime in with that custom, and could do no more in its adoption than what would be done otherwise if the occasion for this resolution had not arisen. But, I was under a misapprehension, as I learn that the President is not ready to announce those Committees. I, therefore, vary the phraseology, either by my own hand or by that of the Secretary, in the particulars I have stated. The Secretary read the resolution as modified in words as follows: Resolved, That this Convention assembling this day in sorrow for the sudden and violent death of 29 one of its members, the Hon. L. Harris Hiscock, as a mark of respect for the dead do now adjourn. Resolved, That a committee of eight be appointed by the Chair to accompany his remains to the place of his last residence so as to represent this body at the sepulture thereof. Resolved, That the officers and members of this body do wear the usual badge of mourning for thirty days, and that the flag upon the Capitol be held at half-mast until after the burial. The question was then taken on the resolutions as modified, and they were declared to be adopted. The PRESIDENT announced the following as the committee of eight provided for by the resolution: Messrs. Folger, Opdyke, Tucker, Tappen, Merrill, Weeder, Hatch and Bell. Mr. BALLARD-Asked leave of absence for Mr. GOODRICH, of Tompkins, for ten days, which was granted. In pursuance of the resolution adopted, the Convention adjourned. THURSDAY, June 6, 1867. The Convention met pursuant to adjournment. Prayer was offered by Rev. A. A. FARR. The journal of yesterday was read and approved. The PRESIDENT announced the following appointments: Librarian-Ferdinand De Wigne. Doorkeepers-James Armstrong, James Tanner, C. V. Schram, David L. Shields, Herman Ruleson, Eugene L. Demers, John Pewit, William McManus. Messengers-William Gordon, Eugene D. Wood, John Phillips. John McDonald, Matthew Patterson, George B. Shelden, Harvey Bell, Charles H. Walters, William Richardson, Frank Agan, Nathaniel Hallenbeck, Charles L. Keyes, Thomas Fausey, Christopher Van Valkenburgh, Edgar Caypless. The SECRETARY announced the following appointments: Cornelius S. Underwood, Journal Secretary; Henry A. Gledden, Assistant Secretary; Edward W. Simmons, Financial Secretary. The PRESIDENT announced the appointment of the following Committees: Under the resolution of Mr. Sherman for a committee to report a code of rules: Mr. Sherman, Mr. M. I. Townsend, Mr. Archer, Mr. Weed and Mr. E. Brooks. Under the resolution of Mr. Gould for a Committee to prepare in bill form, a copy of the present State Constitution, &c.: Mr. Gould, Mr. Beckwith, Mr. Bell, Mr. Tucker, and Mr. Schoonmaker. Under the resolution of Mr. Francis for a committee to inquire upon what terms full verbatim reports of the debates of the Convention may be published in two or more daily papers of this city: Mr. Francis, Mr. Duganne and Mr. Develin. Under the resolution of Mr. Harris for a committee of two members from each judicial district to consider and report the best practicable mode of proceeding to revise the Constitution. Mr. Harris, Mr. Seymour, Mr. Hutchins, Mr. Tilden, Mr. Van Cott, Mr. Murphy, Mr. W. C. Brown, Mr. Paige, Mr. Ballard, Mr. Comstock, Mr. Beadle, Mr. Magee, Mr. Lapham, Mr. Chesebro, Mr. Bowen, Mr. Church. Mr. CURTIS-I have a communication from the President of the Young Men's Association of this city, which I am requested to lay before the Convention. The communication was read in words as follows: RooMs YOUNG MEN'S ASSOCIATION} ALBANY, June 6, 1867. HON. WM. A. WHEELER, President of the Constitutional Convention. SIR-The Executive Committee of the Young Men's Association, of Albany, has instructed me to extend the freedom of their rooms to the members of the Constitutional Convention during their residence in the city. The principal newspapers of the country will always be found on the files. Such books of reference as may be required, may be obtained upon application to the Librarian. Hoping the gentlemen of the Convention will avail themselves of such courtesies as we may be able to extend, I remain, with sentiments of much respect, Your obedient servant, EDWARD DE FOREST, President. Mr. CURTIS moved that the invitation be accepted. Which was carried. Mr. FRANCIS offered the following resolution: Resolved, That when this Convention adjourns it adjourn to meet on Tuesday next, June 11th inst., at 11 o'clock A. fr. Mr. GRREELY-I pray that this Convention may not adjourn until we have received the report from the very important Committee which has just been announced from the chair. I think I am assured by the Chairman of that Committee that it need not be a very long work, although a very important one. Now, Mr. President, if this Convention should adjourn over to-day until to-morrow morning, that Committee might then be able to report. We may wish to revise their action. I have great confidence in that Committee, but still it is quite probable that this Convention may choose to exert a supervisory discretion or power over the action of that most importart Committee. The moment we shall have received and acted upon that report I am perfectly willing to adjourn for as many days as the Chair shall deem necessary to enable him to make up the committees of the Convention; but until we have provided for those committees,-until we have clothed the Chair with the power to make certain committees, under the direction, not Of a committee, but of this Convention,-it is entirely improper for this Convention to adjourn. I move therefore, that this proposition do for the present lie upon the table. The question being taken on the motion of Mr. Greeley to lay the resolution of Mr. Francis on the table, it was declared carried, by the following vote: Ayes.-Messrs. A. F. Allen Axtell, Baxter, Barker Beadle, Bickford, E. P. Brooks, E. A. Brown, W. 0. Brown, Conger Dazanne, 0.. Dwight, Eddy, Ely, Endress, Field, HFowler, ak Frank l, Fu ld, Graves, 30 Greeley, Gross, Hale, Hammond, Hitchcock, Hutchins, Kinney, Landon, Lapham, Law, A. Lawrence, M. H. Lawrence, Lee, Ludmgton, Mattice, Merritt, Merwin, Miller, More, Murphy, Paige, Parker, Prindle, Pond, Prosser, Root, Schell, Schoonmaker, Seaver, Seymour, Smith, Spencer, Stratton, Strong, M. I. Townsend, S. Townsend, Van Campen, Verplanck, Wakeman, Wales, Wickham and Williams.-63. Nays-Messrs. N. M. Alien, Archer, Armstrong, Ballard, Barnard, Beals, BeckWith, Bergen, E. Brooks, Carpenter, Case, Cassidy, Cheritree, Chesebro, Clark, Clinton, Callahan, Comstock, Cooke, Curtis, Daly, T. W. Dwight, Ferry, Flagler, Francis, Gerry, Grant, Hadley, Hand, Hardenburgh, Harris, Hatch, Hitchman, Houston, Huntington, Ketcham, Krum, Larremore, Livingston, Loew, Lowrey, Masten, McDonald, orris, Opdyke, Potter, Reynolds, Robertson, Rolfe, Roy, Rnmsey, A. D. Russell, L. W. Russell, Silvester, Sherman, Tilden, Van Cott and Young.-58. Mr. W. C. BROWN offered the following resolution: Resolved, That the privileges of the House be extended to the judges of the Court of Appeals. Which was adopted. Mr. S. TOWNSEND offered the following resolution: Resolved, That the President of this Convention appoint a committee of one from each judicial district for the purpose of examining and reporting to this Convention whether, in their opinion, under the provisions of the 2d section of the 13th article of the existing Constitution, this body is constitutionally called. Mr. GREELEY moved that the resolution do lie upon the table. Which was carried. Mr. BICKFORD offered the following resolution: Resolved, That the Secretary of State be requested to furnish a copy in pamphlet form of the law of the Legislature under which the delegates to this Convention were elected, to such members as shall desire the same; provided that a sufficient number of copies of the edition already printed are already on hand. The question was then put on the resolution of Mr. Bickford, and it was declared adopted. Mr. E. P. BROOKS offered the following resolution: Resolved, That the State Engineer and Surveyor be requested to make an estimate of the cost and expenses of enlarging the locks on the Chemung canal, and on the Chemung Canal feeder to the size of the locks on the Erie canal, and to submit such estimate to this Convention at as early a day as practicable. Mr. BROOKS-I merely wish to explain to the Convention, with regard to this resolution, that the information called for can be obtained without any expense to the State at all, as it is already in the department, and can be furnished without any extra expense. Mr. HATCH-Will the gentleman add to his resolution this amendment; and also furnish a table of the cost of construction, maintenance and repair of said canal? The amendment was accepted and the question being taken on the resolution as amended, it was declared to be adopted. Mr. LAPHAM offered the following resolution: Resolved, That this Convention take up the existing Constitution of the State, in Committee of the Whole, and consider the same by sections, with the view of determining the sense of the Convention, as to which of its provisions shall remain unaltered, and which need revision or amendment; and that those sections only which give rise to debate shall be regarded as subjects of reference to committees. Mr. LOEW moved that the resolution lie upon the table until the Committee of Sixteen have made their report to the Convention. Which was carried. Mr. SPENCER offered the following resolution: Resolved, That a committee to consist of six members, elected by Senatorial Districts, and three members at large, to be appointed by the President, prepare and report to the Convention such proposed revision and amendment of the present Constitution, or any part thereof, as the same may seem to require, and that any revision or amendment proposed by any member prior to the final report of the committee be referred to such committee to report from time to time as they may deem expedient. Mr. SPENCER-I would suggest the reference of that resolution to the committee of sixteen. Which reference was ordered. Mr. SHERMAN offered the following resolution: Resolved, That the select Committee on Rules be authorized to have printed such report as they may agree to, so that the same may be laid upon the tables of members at to-morrow's session, if practicable. The question was then put on the resolution and it was declared adopted. Mr. KETCHAM offered the following resolution: Resolved, That when this Convention adjourn this day, it adjourn to meet on Monday, June 10, at 11 o'clock. Mr. GREELEY moved that the resolution lie upon the table. Which was carried. Mr. SHERMAN offered the following resolution: Resolved, That the whole subject of a revision of the Constitution be referred to a select committee of sixteen, viz.: two from each Judicial District of the State, who shall report for the consideration of the Convention, such amendments or such proposed new Constitution as they shall be able to agree upon; the report, when made, to be referred to a Committee of the whole Convention for consideration in detail. Mr. SHERMAN moved that the resolution be referred to the select committee of sixteen. Which was carried. Mr. M. I. TOWNSEND-Mr. President: My name was announced as a member of the committee to present rules for the government of the deliberations of the Convention, and I see that it is desirable that that committee should meet almost immediately. I have an engagement today at four o'clock, that involves the convenience of a great many other persons in such a way as to render it very difficult for me to attend to the immediate duties of that committee, and I therefore ask to be excused from serving on that committee and that some other gentleman be appointed in my place. 31 No objection being made, Mr. Townsend was the cost of its construction and maintenance, and excused. we want to know, too,whether the surplus revenues Mr. GREELEY-I desire now to call up of the canals of the State would justify their immy resolution asking for certain information provement, or their enlargement. I am in favor for the benefit of this Convention with regard to of the improvement and enlargement of any canal our canals; and I desire to say, that if any part of which shows a surplus revenue. I think, sir, that information is contained in any report about under these circumstances we had better defer any to be made, it will of course cost nothing. I wish action on this resolution for two or three days. to know the facts called for in that resolution, and The PRESIDENT-Will the gentleman name I cannot act intelligently with regard to canals, a different period? until I can see clearly from a statement before me, Mr. HATCH-I move to lay it on the table what each of our canals has cost, and what it is until Tuesday next. costing to-day. That is the purpose of my resolu- The question was then put on the motion of Mr. tion. What has each canal cost the people of this Hatch and it was declared carried. State, and how much is it costing for its continu- Mr. E. BROOKS moved that the Convention do ance to-day, and what is it paying? On the other now adjourn. hand I gave notice that I would accept all amend- The motion, on request of Mr. Conger, was ments looking to the same great end,-that is, to withdrawn. make us acquainted with the facts concerning these Mr. CONGER - I will move a reconsideration canals. I ask the Convention to take up and pass of the vote by which the house refused to adjourn, that resolution, with all the amendments which under the resolution, until Tuesday next. have been or may be proposed, looking to the same The PRESIDENT -Did the gentleman vote purpose; and if there be any part of the informa- with the majority? tion I wish, which is already afforded, it will cost MR. CONGER-Yes sir. I understand now it but a trifle to transfer it from the documents in is quite impossible, as might be expected perhaps, which it is contained. that the Committee of Sixteen, several of whom Mr. E. BROOKS-I submit to the mover of are absent from the city, should meet in such a this resolution [Mr. Greeley] that it should be sub- way as to present any order of business upon mitted to the Auditor of the Canal Department which we could act. The consequence will be, if to furnish the information called for, instead of we meet here to-morrow, the session will be quite the State Comptroller. It is very doubtful whether futile in any valuable result. It is for that reason, the information can be furnished from his office, be- sir, and under information which I deem to be causeitis nopartof his official duty. I understand, very reliable, that the Committee are not able Mr. President, from the Auditor of the Canal De- either to state or to report so as to give satisfacpartment, that the information called for in the tory results to the Convention. I, therefore, move resolution of the gentleman from Westchester [Mr. a reconsideration of that vote. Greeley] is prepared and will be laid upon Mr. GREELEY-I ask this House to consider the table within a few days' time. I well this proposition before adopting it. If the therefore propose, as a proviso, at the end committee is not full, it will be more likely to of the several suggestions to the resolutions agree sooner. If there are but ten members presubmitted by the gentleman, " and provided such sent, they would sooner give a report than if there information is not already prepared by the Canal were sixteen. If the Chairman would ask this department for the Convention." And, if the Convention to adjourn over for two or three days, gentleman will accept this suggestion to obtain the I would agree to it. Unless the Chairman of the information from the Auditor of the Canal Depart- Committee asks for time, I shall believe, as I have ment, instead of the State Comptroller, and make been well assured, that we may expect a report it a part of the original resolution, it will not be from that Committee to-morrow morning; therenecessary to offer the amendment suggested. fore, I trust this resolution will not pass. Mr. GREELEY - The Comptroller is the finan- Mr. HARRIS-It is true, Mr. President, that I cial officer of the State. I would rather have could make a report myself to-morrow morning; information from him than from any one else, and but, on conferring hastily with several members I, for one, prefer to have it upon the responsibility of the Committee, I am persuaded that we shall of the Comptroller. be unable to submit a report that will be satisfacMR. E. BROOKS-Then I move to amend the tory to ourselves, as early as to-morrow' morning. resolution by striking out the words " State Comp- From the experience I have had in reference to troller," and inserting the words: "The Auditor such matters, I am persuaded it will take more of the Canal Department." time, and require more deliberation, than we can Mr. HATCH-It seems to me, Mr. Chairman, devote to it between this and to-morrow morning. that it would be better to defer any action on I think, therefore, thatthe Convention can hardly this resolution for the present, and see whether expect a report from this committee to-morrow this manual which is talked about furnishes the morning. requisite information. Now, if the manual Mr. FERRY-The committee with almost endoes not give us the information which we tire unanimity are agreed in regard to this matter. require, myself and other members of this If we, by staying here, can facilitate business Convention, would desire to further amend by which this report can be made, I, for one, these resolutions in order to secure what would be in favor of staying. If the report canfurther information is important. We want the not be made, I suppose we stay here substantially information not on any part of the subject, but for no purpose, and I prefer an adjournment in information in respect to every canal in the State, that event. From the statement of the Chairman 32 of the Convention I suppose that is the position of the committee. Mr. FRANCIS-It was after consultation with members, including the member from Albany [Mr. Harris] that I offered the resolution upon the suggestion of those whom I supposed understood the business that is necessary to be done, before it would be possible for us to make any progress here. Mr. STRONG - The opposition I have to make to this amendment is, that it is very unequal to the different delegates. Some of them are unable to go home, and of necessity will have to remain here. As I understand it, when the Legislature passed the bill in reference to the Convention, it did not contemplate that we should adjourn for more than three days, therefore it would deprive us of our compensation if we adjourn over, beyond that time. It would be very unfair to those who cannot reach their homes within the time mentioned in this resolution. It is for that reason, if for no other, that I oppose it. But we can have considerable business to transact if we wait from day to day, independent of the business that will come from this committee. And I think, therefore, that we had better remain where we are, since it would be justice at any rate to those who can not go to their homes. Mr. HAND-I suggest that there will be only three working days, which is all that is called for. Mr. HALE-In answer to the suggestion of the gentleman from Suffolk [Mr. Strong], I propose to offer an amendment to the resolution of the gentleman from Rensselaer [Mr. Francis], providing that the adjournment be until Monday. That, I think, will meet the objection made by the gentleman from Suffolk, [Mr. Strong]. The PRESIDENT-The question is upon the motion of the gentleman from Rockland [Mr. Conger) to reconsider the vote by which the resolution of the gentleman from Rensselaer [Mr. Francis] was lost. Mr. BICKFORD-I move to lay the motion to reconsider on the table. Mr. CONGER-I should presume that that is hardly practicable. The PRESIDENT-In the opinion of the Chair the motion is not practicable. The question was then put on the motion to reconsider, and it was declared carried. Mr. HALE-I move to amend by substituting Monday at 4 P. M., in place of Tuesday next, June 11th, at 11 o'clock A. M. Mr. FRANCIS-I accept the amendment. Mr. VERPLANCK- -I move to amend the resolution by inserting after the word "adjourn," the word "to-morrow." It would be impossible for many of us to arrive here in time to attend the session on Monday. Mr. HAtND-Can we have the information from the President? There seems to be some misappresion whether an adjournment until Tuesday will be more than three days. Mr. VERPLANCK- I further move to amend that we shall meet on Tuesday next at 11 A. M., instead of Monday at 4 P. M. The question was then put on the motion of Mr. Verplanck to amend and it was declared lost. Mr. iOBkETSON-Is an amendment in order nott? The PRESIDENT-Yes, sir. Mr. ROBERTSON- Then I move to amend by making the time to which we adjourn Monday at 6 o'clock instead of at 4 o'clock. My reason for offering the amendment is, that the train arriving at quarter past five o'clock will not reach here in time for delegates residing along the river to be in attendance upon the session. To attend at 4 P. M. would involve the necessity of a very early departure from the city or other places on the river. The question was put on the amendment of Mr. Robertson, and it was declared adopted. The question then recurred on the resolution of Mr. Francis, as amended, and it was declared adopted. Mr. BICKFORD-Offered the following resolution: Resolved, That the committee of sixteen appointed in pursuance of the resolution introduced on the 4th inst., by Mr. Harris, whose duty it is to consider and report the best practicable mode of proceeding to revise the Constitution, be instructed also to inquire and report as to the expediency (with a view to a short session) of confining the labors of the Convention to a few of the most urgent reforms needed in the Constitution, and of submitting each proposed amendment separately; and, if they shall be of opinion that it is expedient to undertake a general revision of the Constitution that they set forth in their report the reasons for such opinions. Mr. VERPLANCK moved that the resolution lie on the table. Which was carried. On motion of Mr. LOEW the Convention adjourned. MONDAY, JUNE 10, 1867. The Convention met pursuant to adjournment, Prayer was offered by Rev. A. A. FARR. The journal of the last session was read by the Secretary. Mr. S. TOWNSEND-When I had the honor, on Thursday, of submitting a resolution to the Convention, the Chair omitted to state what I intended it should hear, that the resolution, being one which would undoubtedly give rise to debate, I consented that it lie over under the rules. But the gentleman from Westchester (Mr. Greeley), making the motion as he did, that the resolution lie on the table, there was not time for the suggestion. I would now like to have the journal amended, so that it will appear that the resolution was laid on the table with the consent of the mover. The Convention will remember, in confirmation of my statement, that there was not a dissenting vote to the motion of the gentleman from Westchester. There being no objection, the correction stated was ordered. Mr. LAPHAM-The resolution offered by myself on Thursday, was laid upon the table until the committee of sixteen should make a report. It was a special direction and I see that the Journal does not contain it. There being no objection, the correction stated was ordered. Mr. Amasa J. Parker, a delegate, appeared in the Convention, and was administered the Consti 33 tutional oath of office by the President, and took his seat. On motion of Mr. SHERMAN, the Convention adjourned. TUESDAY, JUNE 11, 1867. The Convention met pursuant to adjournment. Prayer was offered by Rev. J. T. PECK, D. D. The Journal of yesterday was read by the Secretary, and was approved. Messrs. Francis Kernan and John E. Develin, Delegates duly elected, appeared in the Convention, were administered the Constitutional Oath of office, and took their seats. Cornelius S. Underwood, Henry A. Gledden and Edward W. Simmons, Assistant Secretaries, Ferdinand DeWigne, Librarian, and James Armstrong, James Tanner, C. V. Schram, David L. Shields, Herman Ruleson, Eugene L. Demers, John Pewit, and William McManus, Door keepers, were administered the Constitutional oath of office, by the President. The PRESIDENT announced the appointment of Mr. Baker as a member of the Committee on rules in place of Mr. M. I. Townsend who had been excused from serving at his own request. Mr. SHERMAN from the select Committee on Rules, submitted the report of the Committee. Mr. SHERMAN-Before the report is read, I desire to state that the rules as agreed upon, are with a single exception, the unanimous report of the Committee, the one exception is that of the previous question. The rules are mainly those of the Assembly, with only such changes as are necessary to adapt them to the different class of business to be performed here. The rules of the Assembly, as far as my observation extends, are the best calculated for the fair transaction of business, of any rules in this country. I propose that the rules should be read at length, and then if it be the pleasure of the Convention, it proceed at once to consider them by sections. I would state further that a copy of the rules, as they were originally drafted, will be found upon the files of each member. Some changes have been made by the Committee which will be apparent to members, on reading. The SECRETARY then read the report in words as follows: CHAPTER I. OJ the Powers and Duties of the President. Rule 1. The President shall take the Chair each day at the hour appointed for the meeting of the session. Rule 2. He shall possess the powers and perform the duties herein prescribed, viz.: 1. He shall preserve order and decorum. 2. He shall decide all questions of order subject to appeal to the Convention. On every appeal he shall have the right, in his place, to assign his reasons for his decision. 3. He shall appoint all Committees, except where the Convention shall otherwise order. 4. He may substitute any member to perform the duties of the Chair for a period not exceeding two consecutive legislative days. 6. When the Convention shall be ready to go 5 into Committee of the Whole, he shall name a Chairman to preside therein. 6. He shall designate the reporters for the public press, not exceeding fifteen in number, and shall assign to them their respective seats. CHAPTER II. Of the Daily Order of Business. Rule 3. The first business of each day's session shall be the reading of the Journal of the preced ing day and the correction of any errors that may be found to exist therein. After which, except on days and at times set apart for the consideration of special orders, the order of business, which shall not be departed from except by unanimous consent, shall be as follows, viz: 1. The presentation of memorials. Under which head shall be included petitions, remonstrances and communications from individuals and from public bodies. 2. Messages from the Governor. 3. Communications from State officers. Under which head shall be embraced also, communications from public officers and from corporations, in response to calls for information. 4. Notices. 5. Reports of standing committees. 6. Reports of select committees. 7. Resolutions. 8. Unfinished business of the general orders. 9. Special orders. 10. General orders. CHAPTER III. Of the Rights and Duties of Members. Rule 4. The President, or any member, when he shall be recognized in his place, may present, under the proper order of business, any paper of a respectful character, addressed to the Convention, and the same, unless the Convention shall otherwise order shall be referred to the appropriate committee. Rule 5. Every member presenting a paper shall endorse the same; if a petition, memorial, remonstrance, or communication in answer to a call for information, with a concise statement of its subject, adding his name; if a notice or resolution, with his name; if the report of a committee, with a statement of its qSbject, the name of the committee and of the member making the report; if a proposition of any other kind for the consideration of the Convention, with a statement of its subject, the proposer's name, and the reference, if any, desired. Rule 6. Every member who shall be within the bar of the Convention when a question shall be stated from the chair, shall vote thereon unless he be excused or be personally interested in the question. No member shall be obliged to vote on any question unless within the bar when the question shall be put, but in the case of a division by yeas and nays, may vote, if present before the last name shall be called. The bar of the Convention shall be deemed to include only the floor of the Assembly Chamber and the open spaces adjacent thereto within the doors. Rule 7. Any member desiring to be excused from voting, must make his request before the 34 roll call shall be commenced. He may then state concisely, without argument, his reasons for asking to be excused, and the question of excusing shall be taken without debate. CHAPTER IV. Of Order and Decorum. Rule 8. No member rising to debate, to give a notice, make a motion or present a paper of any kind, shall proceed until he shall have addressed the President, and been recognized by him as entitled to the floor. Rule 9. Where a member shall have the floor for any purpose, no member shall entertain any private discourse or pass between him and the Chair. Rule 10. While the President shall be putting a question, or a division by counting shall be had, no member shall leave his place, or speak, unless to make a privileged motion or state a question of privilege demanding immediate attention. Rule 11. When a motion to adjourn, or for a recess, shall be affirmatively determined, no member or officer shall leave his place till the adjournment or recess shall be declared by the President. CHAPTER V. Of Order in debate. Rule 12. No member shall speak more than once to the same question, without leave of the Convention, until every member desiring to speak on the question pending shall have spoken. Rule 13. No remarks reflecting personally upon the character or action of any member shall be in order in debate. Rule 14. If any member, in speaking, shall transgress the rules of the Convention, the President shall, or any member may call to order, in which case the member so called to order, shall not rise, unless to explain or speak in order. CHAPTER VI. Of Committees and their duties. Rule 15. Standing Committees shall be appointed by the President to consider and report severally upon the following subjects, and such others as may be referred to them, viz.: * * * * * * * * To consist of five members eac1: Privileges and elections. Printing. Contingent expenses. Engrossment and enrollment. Rule 16. All reports of Committees embracing propositions for Constitutional alteration shall be referred as of course to the Committee of the Whole for consideration therein before final action by the Convention. CHAPTER VII. Of General and Special Orders. Rule 17. The matters referred to the Committee of the Whole shall constitute the General Orders, and shall be recorded by their titles or isbjects in a calendar to be kept for that purpose by the Secretary, in the order in which they shall be referred respectively. Rule 18.. Any particular report or other matter on the General Orders may be made a Special Order for any particular day or from day to day, with the assent of two-thirds of the members voting, and no Special Order shall be postponed or rescinded except by a similar vote. CHAPTER VIII. Of the Committee of the Whole. Rule 19. The same rules shall be observed in Committee of the Whole as in the Convention, as far as applicable, except that the previous question shall not apply nor shall the yeas and nays be taken on a division. Rule 20. A motion to rise and report progress shall be in order at any stage, and shall be decided without debate. Rule 21. Subjects shall be taken up in Committee of the Whole in the order in which they shall stand on the General Orders, unless the Committee, by a two-thirds vote, shall, in any case, otherwise direct. The paper under consideration shall be first read at length, unless the Committee shall otherwise order, and shall then be read and considered by sections. All amendments made in Committee of the Whole shall be reported to the Convention for action. Rule 22. If at anytime, in the Committee of the Whole, it shall appear that no quorum be present, the Committee shall immediately rise, and the Chairman shall report the fact to the Convention. CHAPTER IX. On Motions and their Precedence. Rule 23.-When a question shall be under consideration, no motion shall be received except as herein specified, and motions shall have precedence in the order stated, viz -- 1. For an adjournment. 2 For a recess. 3. A call of the Convention. 4. For the previous question. 5. To lay on the table. 6. To postpone indefinitely. 7. To postpone to a day certain. 8. To commit to a Committee of the Whole. 9. To commit to a Standing Committee. 10. To commit to a Select Committee. 11. To amend. Rule 24. The motion to adjourn for the day, for a recess, for the previous question and to lay on the table, shall be decided without amendment or debate. The respective motions to postpone. or commit shall preclude debate on the main question. Rule 25. Every motion or resolution shall, after presentation, be first stated by the President, or on his order read by the Clerk, before debate, and again, if desired by any member, immediately before putting the question. And every resolution and amendment shall be reduced to writing if the President or any member desire it. Rule 26. After a proposition shall have been stated by the President, it shall be deemed to be in the possession of the Convention, but may be withdrawn at any time before it shall be decided or amended. Rule 27. The motions to adjourn or take a recess shall be always in order when made by a member entitled to the floor. Rule 28. No motion for a reconsideration of any 35 vote shall be in order unless made on the same day or the next following legislative day on which the question proposed to be reconsidered shall have taken place; nor unless moved by one who shall have voted in the majority. After a motion for a reconsideration shall have been put and lost, it shall not be renewed without the unanimous consent of the Convention. Rule 29. The previous question shall be, "Shall the main question be now put;" and if determined in the affirmative, no further debate or amendment shall be in order, and the main question shall be on the passage of the resolution or other matter under consideration; but when amendments shall be pending, the question shall be first taken on the amendments in their order; and when amendments shall have been recommended by the Committee of the Whole, and not acted on by the Convention, the question shall be taken upon such amendments in like order. CHAPTER X. Of Resolutions. Rule 30.-The following classes of resolutions shall lie over one day for consideration, after which they may be called up as of course, under their appropriate order of business: 1. Resolutions containing calls for information from any of the Executive Departments, from State, county or municipal officers, or from any incorporate bodies. 2. Resolutions giving rise to debate, except such as shall relate to the disposition of business immediately before the Convention, to the business of the day on which they may be offered, or to adjournments or re cesses. Rule 31. All resolutions for the printing of an extra number of documents, shall be referred, as of course, to the Standing Committee on Printing, for their report thereon before final action by the Convention. Rule 32. All resolutions authorizing or contemplating expenditures for the purposes of the Convention, shall be referred to the Standing Committee on Contingent Expenses, for their report thereon before final action by the Convention. CHAPTER XI. Miscellaneous Provisions. Rule 33. The privileges of admission to the floor of the Convention shall be confined to the following descriptions of persons, viz.: 1. The Governor and Lieutenant-Governor. 2. The Heads of the State Executive Departments, and their Deputies. 3. Ex-Governors of the State. 4. Members of the United States Congress. 5. Officers of the Convention. 6. Reporters of the press, duly assigned as such by the President of the Convention. 7. Officers or ex-officers of the United States army or navy who have received the thanks of Congress. Rule 34. In cases of the absence of a quorum at any session of the Convention, the members present may take such measures as they may deem necessary to secure the presence of a quorum, and may inflict such censure as they may deem just, on those who on being called on for that purpose shall render no sufficient excuse for their absence. Rule 35. If any question contain severaldistinct propositions, it shall be divided by the President, at the request of any member, provided each subdivision if left to itself, shall form a substantive proposition; but the motion to strike out and insert shall be indivisible. Rule 36. The yeas and nays shall be taken and recorded in the journal on any question when demanded by one-fifth of the members present, except in cases where such a division shall have been already ordered on a pending question. Rule. 37. The journal of each day's proceedings shall be printed so that it shall be laid on the desks of members within two days after its approval. Rule. 38. Files of all documents ordered to be printed, shall be prepared and kept by the sergeant-at-arms, and one copy shall be placed upon the desk of each member of the Convention; one copy shall be supplied also to the secretary, one to each of his assistants, one to the stenographer, one to the librarian and one to each reporter of the press. Rule 39. A similar allowance for stationery, as is provided for the use of the members, shall be made to each officer of the Convention, except messengers, and a similar allowance shall also be made to each reporter. Rule 40. No standing rule of the Convention shall be suspended, amended or rescinded, unless one day's notice of the motion therefor shall have been given; nor shall any amendment or repeal be then made, except by the vote of a majority of all the members elected to the Convention. But such notice shall not be required on the last day's session. The notice and motion for a suspension, shall each state specifically the number of the rule and the object of the proposed suspension, and every suspension on such notice and motion, shall be held to apply only to the particular object or objects specified therein. Rule 41. All questions relating to the priority of business, that is, the priority of one subject matter over another under the same order of business, the postponement of any special order, or the suspension of any rule, shall be decided without debate. Rule 42. There shall be printed, as of course, and without any special order, 800 copies of all reports of committees on the subject of Constitutional revision, and of all reports and cominunications made in pursuance of the order or request of the Convention; and 800 copies of the journal; which numbers shall be denominated the usual number. Rule 43. The Governor and each head of the State Executive departments, shall be furnished by the printer with a copy of the official documents of the Convention out of the usual number printed. Rule 44. The sergeant-at-arms shall receive from the printer all matter printed for the use of the Convention, and shall keep a tecord of the time of the reception of each document, and the number of copies received, and shall cause a copy of each to be placed on the desks of the members, 36 officers and reporters entitled to receive them, number, apportionment, election, tenure of office, immediately after their reception by him. and compensation of its members. Rule 45. There shall be bound, out of the usual 3. On the powers and duties of the Legislature number printed, three hundred copies of the jour- except as to matters otherwise referred. nal and three hundred copies of the reports and 4. On the right of suffrage and the qualificadocuments of the Convention, to be distributed as tions to hold office. follows, viz.: To each member of the Convention, 5. On the Governor and Lieutenant Governor, one copy; State Library, five copies; the library their election, tenure of office, compensation, of the Senate, sixteen' copies; the library of the powers and duties, except as otherwise referred. Assembly, fifty copies; the Counties and Public 6. On the Secretary of State, Comptroller, offices, sixty copies. Treasurer, Attorney-General, and State Engineer Rule 46. The Assistant Sergeant-at-Arms shall and Surveyor, their election or appointment, tenure perform the duties of Postmaster of the Conven- of office, compensation, powers and duties. tion, and as such shall receive, distribute and 7. On town and county officers other than judidispatch such mail matter as shall be deposited in cial, their election or appointment, tenure of his office, addressed to or by members of the office, compensation, powers and duties. Convention; and the Sergeant-at-Arms shall 8. On the Judiciary. assign to the service of the Acting Postmaster 9. On the finances of the State, the Canals, such number of the messengers as he may need except their care and management, the public to aid him in the performance of his duties. debt, revenues, expenditures and taxation, and Mr. SHERMAN-I now move that the rules restrictions on the powers of the Legislature in be read separately, and except where a separate respect thereto. vote shall be demanded, or they be amended, that 10. On the Superintendence and Management of they be considered as adopted without a formal the Canals, and the proper officers to be charged vote. therewith, and the mode of their election or apMr. VERPLANCK-I think we can hardly pass pointment. upon these rules by a casual reading of them. I 11. On cities, their organization, government understood the gentleman from Oneida [Mr. Sher- and powers. man] to say, they were substantially the rules of 12. On counties, towns and villages; their orthe Assembly,but in hastily running them over I ganization, government and powers. find several very important variations of those 13. On currency, banking and insurance. rules. I suggest, therefore, that they can hardly 14. On corporations other than municipal, bankbe considered now. ing and insurance. The PRESIDENT -Does the gentleman make 15. On State Prisons. any motion? 16. On the pardoning power. Mr. DEVELIN-I move that the consideration 17. On the militia and military officers. of the report be postponed until to-morrow. 18. On education and the funds relating thereto. Mr. SHERMAN-I have no objection what- 19. On future amendments and revisions of the ever to the postponement if the Convention Constitution. desire it. The Committee also recommend that the ComThe question being put upon the motion of mittee No. 9 on the " Finances of the State" conMr. Develin, it was declared to be carried. sist of sixteen members; that Committee No. 8, Mr. HARRIS, from the Committee of Sixteen, "on the Judiciary" and Committee No. 11 "on appointed to consider and report upon the best Cities," consist of fifteen members each, and that practical mode of proceeding to the revision of the the other Committees consist of seven members Constitution, made the following REPORT: each. The Committee appointed to consider and re- The Committee further recommend that the port to the Convention the best practicable mode committees, in making their reports, be allowed, of proceeding with the revision of the Constitu- at their option, to state briefly in writing the tion, respectfully report reasons in support of their conclusions. That, while, in their opinion there are some, per- All of which is respectfully submitted. haps many parts of the Constitution which need IRA HARRIS, Chairman. no alteration, yet, as the whole fabric of the fun Mr. FULLER moved that the report be referdamental law of the State has been committed to red to the Committee of the Whole. this Convention with instructions to examine it Which was lost. and propose for the consideration of the people Mr. ALVORD moved that the report lie upon such amendments as it may be thought to require, the table and be ordered to be printed. the Committee have deemed it their duty to re- Which was carried commend the examination of all the provisions of Mr. DUGANNE offered the following resoluthe Constitution by appropriate committees. tion: They therefore recommend the adoption of the Resolved, That to the permanent committees following resolution: appointed by this Convention shall be added a Resolved, That committees be appointed to standing committee, to be known as the Commitconsider and report on each of the following sub- tee on Industrial Interests, to which shall be rejects, and that the several parts of the Constitu- ferred all matters pertaining to the rights and tion which relate to those subjects respectively be claims of labor. referred to such committees. Mr. FIELD moved that the resolution be refer1. On the Preamble and the Bill of Rights. red to the same committee of the whole having 2. On the Legislature, its organization and the charge of the report. * 37 The PRESIDENT-That has not been referred. of the nature of the. appeals; what proportion Mr. FIELD-Then I move that it lie on the were criminal, what proportion were from corpotable and be printed. rations, and what in reference to other subjects. The question being taken on the motion of Mr. HARRIS-I would say in reply to the Mr Field, it was declared carried. gentleman that I apprehend that it will be imposMr. C. C. DWIGHT offered the following reso- sible for the Clerk of the Court of Appeals to lution: make that discrimination. Resolved, That the Sergeant-at-Arms be directed M. BICKFORD-I would also ask, that the to cause the street bounding this Chamber on the resolution be so modified that information be fursouth to be strewn with tan bark or other suita- nished to the Convention, not only of the causes ble substance, and that it be kept there during within the knowledge of the Clerk of the Court the session of this Convention. of Appeals, but also of all causes that are pending Mr. C. C. DWIGHT-It is impossible for gen- in that Court. I understand there are a great tiemen in this part of the House to hear what is many causes pending in the Court not upon the going on in the Convention, on account of the noise calendar, of which the clerk may know nothing. from that street. Mr. FIELD-I rise to a question of order, that Mr. AXTELL-I understand that the Secre- by the rules under which we are acting, this resotary of the Convention has had some communica- lution giving rise to debate must lie over one day. tion with the Mayor of the City with regard to Mr. HARRIS-I think it will give rise to no this matter. I have been informed that this will further debate. be done without the action of this Convention, or Mr. BICKFORD-I am informed that the Clerk without any request from it. has got all the information that I asked for. Mr. TAPPEN-I propose to amend the resolu- Mr. ROBERTSON offered the following amendtion by making it a resolution of inquiry instead ment to the resolution of Mr. Harris: of a resolution of action. And also the amount involved in each case The PRESIDENT-Will the gentleman reduce where the matter in dispute is a sum of money. his resolution to writing so it can be read by the Mr. STRONG-I think we had better lay this Secretary? upon the table until to-morrow, in order to give Mr. TAPPEN offered the following amendment: us time to ascertain what facts we really need to " That the Secretary be instructed to confer with have reported by the clerk. There are some facts the city authorities for the purpose of covering the in addition to those already mentioned, and I sugpavement in front of the capitol." gest that the matter lie over until to-morrow. Mr. HARRIS-I would uggest to my friend The PRESIDENT-Will the gentleman put that he had better let this lie upon the table for that in the form of a motion? the present. I am persuaded that the Mayor of Mr. STRONG-I make that motion. the city, the moment his attention is called to the The question being put on the motion of Mr. subject, will provide a remedy against the evil Strong, it was declared to be lost. spoken of. Mr. STRONG-I propose to debate this resoluThe resolution of Mr. C. C. Dwight and the sub- tion, and I suppose under the rule it will have to stitute of Mr. Tappen were laid on the table with lie over. I wish to make some remarks upon the the consent of the movers. subject. Mr. POND-I move to amend the amendment The resolution was accordingly laid over. and the resolution by striking out all after the Mr. M. H. LAWRENCE offered the following word resolved, and inserting the following in lieu resolution: thereof:- Resolved, That the Chair appoint a Committee The PRESIDENT-The Chair would inform of seven whose duty it shall be to examine into the gentleman from Saratoga [Mr. Pond] that the and report to this Convention, what offices if any subject is not now before the Convention, the reso- may be abolished without detriment to the publution by consent having been laid on the table. lie service, and expressly all those created by law Mr. POND-Then I shall offer the resolution as since the revision of the Constitution in 1846. a distinct proposition. Mr. ALVORD, moved that the resolution lie Mr. HARRIS offered the following resolution: upon the table and be printed. Resolved, That the Clerk of the Court of Ap- Which was carried. peals be requested to furnish this Convention with Mr. COLAHAN offered the following resolua statement of the number of appeals now pend- tion: ing in the Court, distinguishing the years in which Resolved, That a further Committee of eight be such appeals were brought. Also, the number appointed to take into consideration the educaof cases which were determined by the Court tional interests of the State. of Appeals during the years 1862, 1863, 1864, Mr. SEYMOUR moved that the resolution lie 1865, and 1866, respectively. on the table and be printed. Mr. KERNAN-I trust that the gentleman will Which was carried. allow that to be amended so as to state the dis- Mr. HITCHCOCK offered the following resolu. tricts from which the cases came, which can easily tion: be furnished by the Clerk. Resolved, That the Secretary of this ConvenMr. HARRIS-I accept the amendment. tion ke requested to procure twenty diagrams of Mr. S. TOWNSEND-I would like to ask the this Chamber for each member, officer and regentleman from Albany [Mr. Harris], who offered porter of this Convention, provided they be obthe resolution, whether it will be possible to tained at a cost not exceeding the cost of those classify that return so that we can form an idea furnished the Assembly last winter. 38 Mr. LARREMORE moved that that resolution be amendments of Mr. E. Brooks, to strike out the referred to the appropriate standing Committee, word " comptroller" and insert in lieu therewhen appointed, of the words "Auditor of the Canal DepartWhich was carried. ment," and "provided said information is not Mr. GRAVES offered the following resolution: already prepared by the Canal Department Resolved, That a committee of five be appointed for the Convention." by the Chair to report to the Convention at as early a day as practicable, whether in their opinion Mr. GREELEY-I object, with great respect to a provision should be incorporated in the Consti- the mover of the amendment offered, on these tution authorizing the women of this State to grounds: The comptroller is an officer elected by exercise the elective franchise, when they should the people of the State, known to the Constitution ask that right by a majority of all the votes given and laws of the State as its chief financial officer. by citizen females over the age of twenty-one The Canal Auditor, I believe, is not an officer years, at an election called for this purpose, at known to the Constitution, at any rate is not chosen which the women alone shall have the right to by the people, and he holds a subordinate position. vote. I desire this very important information on the resMr. LOEW moved that the resolution lie on ponsibility of the highest financial officer of the the table and be printed. State. I should not wish, with very great respect Which was carried. to the Canal Auditor, that he should be required to Mr. FIELD offered the following resolution: furnish us this information. The Comptroller, Resolved, That there be a committee of seven if he wishes,.may apply to the Canal Auditor on claims against the State and their adjudica- or any other source for information, but let us tion. have this information given to us on the responMr. FIELD moved that the resolution lie on sibility of the chief financial officer of the State. the table and be printed. I trust, therefore, that the amendment of the Which was carried. gentleman from Richmond [Mr. E. Brooks] will Mr. VAN CAMPEN offered the following reso- not be adopted. I gave notice that I would aclution: cept all amendments proposing to enlarge the Resolved, That a standing committee of seven scope of inquiry. If any gentleman wishes furbe appointed on the subject of the relations of thur information in regard to the Canals, I say I the State to Indian tribes remaining in the same. accept his amendment, but I will accept none Mr. VAN CAMPEN moved that the resolution which seems to limit the scope nor to lower, lie on the table and be printed, if I may so speak, the plane of the inquiry. If Which was carried. then, there is information provided or providing Mr. S. TOWNSEND offered the following reso- for us by some officer which will furnish a part lution: of what I want, I do not see that that is any Resolved, That it be referred to an appropriate reason for refusing this inquiry or rejecting it. If Committee, to report to this Convention the policy the Comptroller has this information at his elbow of making Constitutional provision for the collec- prepared in some other form in answer to some tion of all tolls, dues and taxes, authorized by the other inquiry, it would be very easy for him to laws of this State, after the 1st of January, 1868, transcribe it and to present it in answer to this inin specie or its equivalent, and that thereafter the quiry. I am confident all I call for may be given us payments made by this State, and the counties on two pages of a Convention document. I wish and towns thereof, shall be in like currency, Pro- the information presented in such condensed vided, That thereafter no salary of any office exist- form that we may see the cost, current expenses ing on the 1st of January, 1861, shall be greater and current income of the Canals at one view on than the one existing at that date, until otherwise one page, and then we may see what canals we changed by the Legislature. are to credit with profit to the State, and By consent of the mover, the resolution was laid what canals are chargeable with loss, on the table. When we have this information it will be perMr. T. W. DWIGHT offered the following fectly easy for me, and I doubt not for others, to resolution: act upon the subject of the canals intelligently and Resolved, That one of the subjects upon which with clear regard to the financial as well as the a standing committee shall be appointed shall be more important interests of our constituents. the creation, superintendence and visitation of Mr. President, I am exceedinglydesirous that this Charities, both public and private, especially those Convention, its deliberations, and the results of which receive pecuniary aid from the State. those deliberations, shall commend themselves to Mr. DWIGHT moved that the resolution lie on the favor-the emphatic decided favor-of the the table and be printed. people of the State. I believe the Constitution Which was carried. under which we now live and for which I very Mr. GREELEY-I desire to call up the resolu. earnestly electioneered and voted on its adoption, tion which I offered in the Convention on the first is imperfect in many respects, and that abuses day of its session, and which was by the Conven- especially with regard to the canals have been tion ordered to be considered this day, its pur- developed under its action. I am desirous that the pse being to secure information relative to the Convention shall so act, with such openness, with canals. such energy, and with such industry as shall comThe SECRETARY read the resolution re- mend its doings to the favor of our constituents, ferred to, calling upon the Comptroller for the and enable its results to be sustained by the emrequired information; also, the pending phatic vote of the people of the State. I trust, 39 therefore, that this inquiry will not any longer be denied. Mr. CHURCH-It seems to me, sir, that neither the Comptroller nor the Auditor of the Canal department is the proper person to direct this resolution to, but that it should be directed to the Commissioners of the Canal fund, who have charge of the finances relating to the canals. At the head of that Commission is the Comptroller, and the Auditor of the Canal department is the Secretary of the Board. By directing it to the Commissioners of the Canal Fund, we shall have the benefit of the experience and the knowledge of the Comptroller and also of the Auditor. I would suggest to the gentleman from Weschester [Mr. Greeley] if that is not the proper direction for such a resolution as this. Mr. E. BROOKS-My reason for offering the amendment, to which the gentleman from Westchester objects, was that it was, in my judgment, in conformity to law, and that the Legislature of this State had so acted in definingthe duties of the Canal Auditor and in so separating his bureau from that of the State Comptroller as to make it imperative upon him to furnish such information as is called for by the pending resolution. Now, sir, let me read from the law: " All the powers and duties of the Chief Clerk of the canal department, and all the powers and duties of the Comptroller in relation to the canals, except his powers and duties as Commissioner of the canal fund, are hereby transferred to, and vested in the said auditor; and the said auditor shall also be secretary of the Commissioners of the Canal fund." Now, Mr. President, here tle law is complete as to the duties of the Canal Auditor furnishing such information as is called for by the resolution of the gentleman from Westchester [Mr. Greeley], and the various pending amendments. Every body knows from the practice of the office under its present regime, that any information sought for in regard to the administration of the canals of this State is sought for from the Canal Auditor; and, I believe, the State Comptroller is as well convinced as I am that this is not a proper inquiry to make of him; and if this resolution should be adopted by this body, he would either return it to the body making it, with a statement that it was no part of his duty to furnish such information or else hand it over immediately to the Canal Auditor, who is the proper officer to furnish it. The Canal Auditor is as much a state officer, though not elected by the people, as the State Comptroller himself, and he is the proper person to make the inquiry of. Now in regard to the other amendment I submit. I have proposed that this information shall be furnished, provided it is not already prepared by the State officers for the use of the Convention, and if the gentleman from Westchester [Mr. Greeley] will take the trouble to read and analyse the financial report of the Auditor of the Canal Department, of the State of New York, of January 1st, 1867, and subumitted to the Legislature, he will find in detail the information which he requires by his resolution. Now, Mr. President, upon another subject. If we commence by making these various inquiries from the State officers to furnish informa tion which is already at our hands, we shall so multiply the labors of the respective heads of the departments and bureaus as to withdraw them from their necessary daily duties. We can get a great deal of the information called for by a little labor and a little inquiry on our own part. And, there is, let me say, from some observation, no greater abuse in legislative bodies or in conventions, than in the constant making of inquiries in regard to information which can be furnished with very little labor on the part of legislators or members of the convention themselves It was for this reason that I moved the second amendment, "provided that the information is not already prepared for the use of the Convention." Mr. ALVORD-I agree with the gentleman from Orleans, [Mr. Church] in regard to the facts as to the custody of the finances of the canal department. They are under the law, and they are in fact in the hands of the Auditor. They make no part or parcel of the business of the Oomptroller or his office. The finances of the State will be found in the Comptroller's office. If the resolution shall pass as proposed by the gentleman from Westchester, [Mr. Greeley, ] as has well been said by the gentleman from Richmond, [Mr. E. Brooks,] the Comptroller would have to return the resolution back to this body stating that the information called for was not in his bureau. Any information he might give he would have to take second hand from the Auditor in the end. It strikes me it is very proper that the resolution should be directed to the financial officer of the Canal Department, who is the Auditor, and by whom the accounts are kept. In regard to the remarks made by the gentleman from Richmond [Mr. E. Brooks], I wish to say that I believe that all the information, even to the minutest detail called for by the resolution of the gentleman from Westchester, and by the amendment of the gentleman from Ontario, [Mr. Lapham] and all further amendments offered by the gentleman of the Convention, is already prepared, and will make a part of the manual which is to be laid upon the desks of the members of this Convention. I can speak advisedly so far as this, that a large portion of that information in detail, I have seen myself in manuscript form. I am aware of the fact that most of it, if not the entire of it, is to be laid on our desks in that manual. It is quite as well to get the information there as to go to the past reports of the Auditor. It strikes me also that it is eminently proper that this resolution, in the first place, should be directed to the proper officer and that we should then add a proviso that the information is to be furnished if it is not already contained in the forthcoming manual. Mr. CLINTON-It seems to be, Sir, that there is one rule we are in danger of losing sight of. If that rule is to be observed, I am ignorant at the present time as to whether I ought or ought not to vote for this amendment. I understood the gentlemen from Orleans [Mr. Church,] to state that the information which this resolution asks for lies in the possession of the Auditor in three different capacities, first, as Auditor of the Canal dpartment, second, as Secretary of the Commis missioners of the Canal Fund, and third, as a Secretary of some other canal board. Now, then, 40 I believe it is not exactly conformable to the act calling this Convention for the furnishing of dignity of this State Convention ever to call a manual to the Convention. One part of that upon a subordinate for information. The inquiry manual has been already laid on out tables; the ought to be directed to the head of the department, second part has also been laid upon omu and this information is so distributed that I do not tables, and this second part embraces very see how properly the Canal Auditor can answer it, many statistics-" statistics," as stated on the until he has referred to his head-the Commission- volume itself, " of the Executive Department, the ers or board of which he is acting as Secretary. Secretary of the State and Comptroller's De Suppose, for instance, our Secretary should be partments." It says in addition, that "the recalled upon by a resolution of some outside board mainder of the volume will be furnished as soon or body for information. Would he give it? as possible, and when completed will be bound." Would he not be required by his duty first to in- The remaining volume will undoubtedly contain puire of this body whether it was information he all the information which is asked for by the recould properly give? Would he not first have to solution of the gentleman from Westchester [Mr. procure our permission? I think if this infor- Greeley], and amended by several other gentlemation is to be derived in this way, we ought not men, and until that volume is furnished, and until to apply to the Secretary of the board but to the we are able to see what the contents of that board itself. volume will be, and how far it will embrace these Mr. E. BROOKS-I read one of the provisions subjects it seems to me we are occuypying the of the law in making my previous remarks, and I time and attention of the Convention and multiwill in a moment read another. In the first place plying the labors of the state officers unneceslet me say that the Canal Auditor is as much a sarily, I would move therefore, if in order, that state officer as the State Comptroller. He is ap- the consideration of this resolution be further pointed by the Governor of the State, or is nomi- postponed until Tuesday next. nated by the Governor and is confirmed by the Mr. OPDYKE-I hope that the motion that has Senate, and one of his powers and duties to which just been made will not prevail. I hope also that I did not refer is as follows: the amendment which is pending will not pre"The accounts of receipts and payments on ac- vail. In common with the gentleman from Westcount of the canals and the canal fund and debt, chester [Mr. Greeley], I think the chief financial heretofore kept by the Commissioner of the Canal officer of the State, is the person to whom the Fund, shall on, and after the first day of October Convention should look for information upon matnext be kept by said Auditor." ters affecting the financial interests of the State. This information is in his precise custody and it It seems that that was the course pursued by the is in the custody of no other member of the State Convention of 1846, which met to revise the ConGovernment stitution of our State, and to my mind it is proper Mr. GREELEY-The Canal Auditor, either is that we should go to the same source. The law, or is not a subordinate of the chief financial officer portions of which have been read by the gentleman of this State-the Comptroller-as I understand it. from Richmond [Mr. E. Brooks], shows that the I am not decided whether he is or is not, but I Legislature in their wisdom saw fit to go to other know who is the chief financial officer, and I wish sources. It does not follow that we should adopt the inquiry to be directed to him. I regard the the same course. We are seeking information, Canal Auditor law, all the way through, as one of and I entirely agree with the gentleman from exceedingly doubtful propriety. But no matter Westchester [Mr. Greeley,] that we should get it about that. I prefer to keep out of that contro- from the financial head of the State. Now, a versy; but I will say I have no doubt that the single word in support of the original resolution Comptroller will furnish the information, and I of the gentleman from Westchester [Mr. Greeley.] hold him to be the proper officer to furnish it. I It has been said that we may expect this informado not believe the Constitution ever intended that tionthe most important part of the duties of the chief The PRESIDENT-The Chair will inform the financial officer of the State should be taken away gentleman from New York [Mr. Opdyke], that from him, by law, and conferred upon a subordi- the question now pending is to postpone the connate. At all events, I shall insist on the adoption sideration of the question until Tuesday; that of the original resolution. motion does not involve the merits. Mr. SPENCER-I observe that by the pro- The question was then put on the motion of Mr. ceedings of the Constitutional Convention of 1846, Silvester to postpone the consideration of the resa similar resolution of inquiry was directed to the olution of Mr. Greeley, and it was declared lost. Comptroller, and I presume that the information Mr. OPDYKE-The original resolution, M;r. can be obtained from that officer now. President, was evidently drawn with great care, Mr. SILVESTER —Mr. President, I am as judgment and skill. I hold it to be of the highest much in favor as any gentleman in the Convention, importance. It calls for information which is and as desirous of obtaining all the information very extensive and very comprehensive, and possible with respect to the State canals-the ex- which is necessary for us if we desire to act wisely penses of operating them, and the expenses con- upon the subject of the canals. If the resolution nected with improving them. There seems, how- shall be adopted, and presented to the Compever, to be some difference of opinion as to which troller, and lie is prepared to furnish us with the officer of the State is the proper person to whom information in the precise form called for, he has enquiries shall be iddressed. In addition, as has only to say so, and we shall receive it. If he is been suggested by the gentleman from Onondaga not, then we desire that he should prepare it in [Mr. Alvord], the Legislature provided in the I that form and send it here, that we may have it 41 printed for the use of members. I think there should be no serious objection to the resolution. The President announced the question before the House to be on the amendment of Mr. Brooks, "provided that said information is not already prepared by the Canal Department for the Convention " Mr. VERPLANCK-How is that to be settled? I should like to know who is to judge whether the book contains the information or not. Mr. HATCH-I suppose the Convention will undoubtedly decide when the information comes in. I desire to say that a good deal of importance has been attached to the fact that the Convention of 1846 called on the Comptroller for information instead of the Auditor. If my recollection is correct, there was no Auditor then in existence. There was no such department until 1848. Therefore, I deem it very important that the resolution should go to the Auditor who is really the financial officer of the department, and the only officer who can give the requisite information. The question was then put on the amendment of Mr. Brooks, "providing that such information is not already prepared by the Canal Department for the information of the Convention," and it was declared adopted by the following vote, the ayes and nays being called for. Ayes-Messrs. Alvord, Andrews, Archer, Axtell, Baker, Barker, Barto, Beadle, Beals, Beckwith, Bell, Bergen, Bickford, Bowen, E. Brooks, E. P. Brooks, W. C. Brown, Burrill, Case, Cassidy, Champlain, Cheritree, Chesebro, Clark, Clinton, Colahan, Comstock, Conger, Cooke, Daly, Develin, Eddy, Ely, Endress, Ferry, Field, Flagler, Fowler, Fuller, Garvin. Gerry, Graves, Hadley, Hale, Hammond, Hitchman, Houston, Jarvis, Kernan, Krum, Larremore, A. Lawrence, A. R. Lawrence, Livingston, Loew, Lowrey, Luddington, Mattice, McDonald, Merrill, Merwin, Monell, More, Murphy, Nelson, Paige, A. J. Parker, C. E. Parker, Potter, President, Rathbun, Robertson, Rolfe, Roy, A. D. Russell, Schell, Schoonmaker, Schumaker, Seaver, Seymour, Silvester, Sheldon, Smith Strong, Tappen, M. I. Towneend, S. Townsend, Tucker, Van Cott, Veeder, Wakeman, Wickham-92. Nays-Messrs. A. F. Allen, C. L. Allen, Church, Corbett, Curtis, Duganne, C. 0. Dwight, T. W. Dwight, Francis, Greeley, Gross, Hardenburgh, Hatch, Hitchcock, Hutchins, Ketcham, Kinney, Lapham, M. H. Lawrence, Merritt, Miller, Morris, Opdyke, Pond, Prindle, Prosser, Reynolds, Root, Rumsey, L. W. Russell, Spencer, Stratton, Tilden, Van Campen, Verplanck, Wales —36. Mr. CHURCH-I move to amend the amendment by striking out the word "Auditor " and inserting in lieu thereof, " the Commissioners of the Canal Fund." Practically it would make no particular difference whether this resolution is directed to the Auditor, the Comptroller, or the Commissioners of the Canal Fund, as the Convention would doubtless, get the required information from either one of them. But since the question has been raised, I submit to the Convention that the only proper and legitimate source for this information, is the Commissioners of the Canal Fund. The Constitution recognizes the Board of Commissioners, consisting of Lieutenant Governor, the Comptroller, the Secretary of State, the Attorney General and the Treasurer, as the Commissioners of the Canal Fund, and they are charged, by law, with the superintendence and management of the canal fund, and it is made their duty to manage to the best advantage, all E 6 things belonging to that fund and to recom. mend from time to time to the Legislature, the adoption of such measures as they may think proper for the improvement of the fund, and to report to the Legislature at the opening of every session thereof, the state of the fund. The Canal fund is under the control and management of the Commissioners of that fund,'and the accounts are now kept in the office of the Auditor of the Canal Department. Those accounts were formerly kept in the office of the Comptroller, but the control and management, as I said before, are in the hands of the Commissioners and they are the responsible officers to call upon, as it seems to me, for any information in relation to the fund; and therefore I hope the amendment will be adopted. Mr. GREELEY-I am perfectly willing to accept the amendment of the gentleman from Orleans [Mr. Church.] Mr. HATCH-We are not inquiring about the canal fund, but we are inquiring about certain details and statistics about canals, their condition, debts, &c. That is the object of this inquiry, and it is a subject which is not in the hands of the Commissioners of the Canal Fund, and does not belong to any other department except that of the Canal Auditor. Mr. TILDEN-I understood that the gentleman from Westchester [Mr. Greeley] has accepted the amendment. The PRESIDENT-He was not the mover of the original amendment as the chair understands it. The question being put on the amendment of Mr. Church to the amendment of Mr. Brooks, to insert the words " Commissioners of the Canal Funds " in lieu of the word "Auditor," it was declared adopted. Mr. GREELEY-I now accept the amendment of the gentleman from Orleans [Mr. Church] to insert the Commissioners of the Canal Fund in place of the Comptroller. The question was then put on the resolution of Mr. Greeley as amended, and it was declared adopted. Mr. CLARK offlared the following resolution: Re8olved, That the preamble of the Constitution be so amended as to read as follows -. We, the people of the State of New York, grateful to Almighty God for our freedom, and humbly acknowledging Him as the ultimate sourco of all authority and power in civil government, and that states and nations, no less than individuals, are responsible to Him, and subject to His moral laws, in order to secure the blessings of liberty, justice, and good government, to ourselves and our posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution. Which was laid on the table and orderdd to be printed. Mr. McDONALD offered the following reso. lution Rmolved, That the Sergeant-at-Arms, of this Convention, be authorized to place on the files of each member, a printed copy or pamphlet form of the verbatim Report of the debates of this Convention withintwo days after such debate or porioa of debate shall-, have been had, and that the 3ergeant-at-Arms be also authorized, Within the things belonging to that fund and to recommend from time to time to the Legislature, the adoption of such measures as they may think proper for the improvement of the fund, and to report to the Legislature at the opening of every session thereof, the state of the fund. The Canal fund is under the control and management of the Commissioners of that fund, and the accounts are now kept in the office of the Auditor of the Canal Department. Those accounts were formerly kept in the office of the Comptroller, but the control and management, as I said before, are in the hands of the Commissioners and they are the responsible officers to call upon, as it seems to me, for any information in relation to the fund; and therefore I hope the amendment will be adopted. Mr. GREELEY-I am perfectly willing to accept the amendment of the gentleman from Orleans [Mr. Church.] Mr. HATCH-We are not inquiring about the canal fund, but we are inquiring about certain details and statistics about canals, their condition, debts, &c. That is the object of this inquiry, and it is a subject which is not in the hands of the Commissioners of the Canal Fund, and does not belong to any other department except that of the Canal Auditor. Mr. TILDEN-I understood that the gentleman from Westchester [Mr. Greeley] has accepted the amendment. The PRESIDENT-He was not the mover of the original amendment as the chair understands it. The question being put on the amendment of Mr. Church to the amendment of Mr. Brooks, to insert the words "Commissioners of the Canal Funds " in lieu of the word "Auditor," it was declared adopted. Mr. GREELEY-I now accept the amendment of the gentleman from Orleans [Mr. Church] to insert the Commissioners of the Canal Fund in place of the Comptroller. The question was then put on the resolution of Mr. Greeley as amended, and it was declared adopted. Mr. CLARK offered the following resolution: Resolved, That the preamble of the Constitution be so amended as to read as follows: We, the people of the State of New York, grateful to Almighty God for our freedom, and humbly acknowledging Him as the ultimate source of all authority and power in civil government, and that states and nations, no less than individuals, are responsible to Him, and subject to His moral laws, in order to secure the blessings of liberty, justice, and good government, to ourselves and our posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution. Which was laid on the table and orderdd to be printed. Mr. McDONALD offered the following resolution Resolved, That the Sergeant-at-Arms, of this Convention, be authorized to place on the files of each member, a printed copy or pamphlet form of the verbatim Report of the debates of this Convention within two days after such debate or portion of debate shall have been had, and that the Sergeant-at-Arms be also authorized, within the 42 same time, to furnish and forward one such copy of debates, to each Editor (or if there be more than one Editor) then to the Editor-in-chief of every newspaper regularly issued and published within this State to subscribers in intervals of one week, or less. But in case the same person or persons shall be the Editor or Editors of more than one such newspaper, then only one copy of such debate shall be furnished such editor or editors. Mr. E. BROOKS-moved that the resolution be laid on the table and printed. Which was carried. Mr. SHERMAN offered the following resolution: Resolved, That the rules proposed by the Select Committee on that subject be printed, as reported to-day. Mr. E. BROOKS-I move, with the consent of the mover of this resolution, that there be inserted in the proper place,-chap. 6,-the report which has been submitted from the committee of sixteen, which will undoubtedly become a part of the rules of this body, or else let the printing be postponed until the report of this Committee is acted upon. Perhaps it is better to postpone it until the report can be acted upon. I move it be postponed. Mr. GREELEY-I hope not, Mr. Chairman; let us have something to act upon to-morrow. The question being then put upon the motion to postpone, it was declared to be lost. Mr. GREELEY-I now move that the resolution be printed, with the plan of the Committee of sixteen, inserted in the proper place, in the report of the Committee upon rules. Mr. SHERMAN —I accept that amendment. Mr. DEVELIN-I make the motion that the consideration of the report of the Committee on rules should be postponed until to-morrow. The PRESIDEN- -The Chair will inform the gentleman from New York [Mr. Develin], that this is simply a question of printing. Mr. DEVELIN-It will be impossible for gentlemen to know what these rules are, unless they see them upon their tables or somewhere else. As they are set down for consideration for to-morrow, I wish to have them upon our tables to-morrow, so that we can know what they are. The rules as reported to-day are different from the printed copies as laid upon the tables of members of this Convention. Mr. SHERMAN-I wll inform the gentleman that the very object of my motion, is that the rules may be printed and laid upon our tables to-morrow morning. The question then recurred upon the resolution of Mr. Sherman as amended, and it was declared adopted. Mr. MILLER-Iwish to ask leave of absence, for my colleague, Mr. Grant, for six days,. as he is detained by important business. Mr. BICKFORD-I would like to raise the question, whether this motion is necessary. The PRESIDENT-The Chair will leave that for the Convention to establish-to establish its own rules. The Chair does not deem itself possessed of power to grant leave of absence. The question being put, leave of absence was granted. On motion of Mr. LOEW, the Convention adjourned. WEDNESDAY, June 12, 1867. The Convention met pursuant to adjournment. Prayer was offered by Rev. AMBROSE O'NEIL. The SECRETARY read the journal of yesterday, which was approved. The appointment of William Gordon as one of the messengers of the Convention was revoked by the President, on the ground that he is entirely supernumerary. Mr. NELSON-I would like to have it appear somewhere upon the journal that the oath of office was administered to me yesterday. It might, perhaps, be of importance in drawing my pay,' if not otherwise. There being no objection, the journal was corrected accordingly. Mr. GREELEY-The journal does not show how the Convention adopted the amendment of the gentleman from Orleans [Mr. Church]. That amendment prevailed by striking out the amendment of the gentleman from Richmond [Mr. E. Brooks]. Then I accepted that amendment, and it became a part of the original resolution. There was no vote taken by the Convention, and the journal does not show how it became a part of the original resolution. The PRESIDENT-Does the gentleman make any motion? Mr. GREELEY-I move that the Journal be corrected so as to show how the amendment of the gentleman from Orleans [Mr. Church] was adopted by the Convention. That amendment as amended was accepted by the mover of the resolution, and there was no second vote taken on it. Mr. E. BROOKS-The motion of the gentleman from Orleans [Mr. Church] was to amend my amendment. That prevailed, and it was out of the power of the gentleman having introduced the original proposition to accept the proposition moved in the third degree by the gentleman from Orleans, [Mr. Church]. The PRESIDENT —The Chair understands from the Secretary that the fact is as stated by the gentleman from Richmond [Mr. E. Brooks]. Mr. GREELEY-The simple fact is, this Convention decided that the amendment of the gentleman from Richmond should be amended in a particular way. It did not adopt the amendment thus amended. It had still to be adopted by this Convention in some form. It was simply a substitute for his amendment. It was not then a part of the resolution; it was not accepted by the Convention; it was simply a part of the gentleman's amendment,- and no vote was taken by the Convention upon adopting it. I stated I would accept that amendment as amended by the amendment of the gentleman from Orleans [Mr. Church]. The PRESIDENT-The Journal will be corrected if there be no objection. Mr. SHERMAN moved that the Convention now proceed to the consideration of the report of the Committee On rules. Which was carried. Mr. E. BROOKS-I wish to say as a member of the Committee on rnles and orders that the Committee were unanimous in their report with the exception of a single rule-that is, the rule relating to the previous question, from which I 43 as one of the minority dissented. My colleague, also, in the minority, was absent, and therefore gave no opinion upon the subject. I will state, sir, very briefly, my reasons for dissenting from the report in this particular. I do not think it becoming in a State Convention to adopt the previous question, the effect of which is to cut off all debate and to stop deliberation and determination in a becoming manner upon various propositions which may be before this body. The previous question is unknown to bodies which are peculiarly of a deliberative character, like the Convention which is now assembled in this State. It is unknown in the State Senate; it is unknown to the United States Senate, and according to my best judgment, although adopted in a modified degree in the Convention of 1846, it has been very rarely adopted in Conventions of so great importance as the one now assembled. If it be necessary by-and-by to adopt the previous question, I shall have no objection. The moment there is, on the part of the minority in this body, any undue disposition to abuse the freedom of speech, or the freedom of debate, by indulgence in discussion in order to consume time, I shall be, as one of the committee, and as one of the members of this body very ready to adopt the most stringent rules to prevent such abuse. At a later period of this session it may be becoming to adopt such a rule. But there are other rules of great importance trenching upon debate, and which control it. In the first place, we may adopt the half hour or the quarter hour rule, or even limit the discussion to the space of five or ten minutes by-and-by. In the next place it will be discovered, as these rules are read, that they are of the most rigid and stringent character, and as they will be administered by the presiding officer of this body, it will be almost impossible to depart from those strict technicalities, which belong to the immediate subjects which are under consideration. Therefore, I hope at the present stage of this proceeding there will be an indisposition on the part of the majority to adopt this rigid rule. All parliamentary experience has shown this fact, that, whenever there is a disposition to abuse the freedom of speech, it is in the power of the presiding officer, or of any member of the body, to call the member to order, and to confine him strictly and technically to the subject under consideration. Now, sir, as I have said already, in the higher tribunals and deliberative bodies, no such question is known. Whenever in the Senate of the United States, whenever in the British Parliament, or whenever in the State Senate, there is a disposition to crowd the question under discussion, by discussing irrelevant matters, the majority of the body, either through the presiding officer, or any member, can call the member to order, and adopt a rule like this, for instance:to take the question upon a certain hour of a certain day, or to limit the discussion to fifteen or twenty minutes, as the case may be. Sir, the great idea of a body of this kind, is the freedom of speech-freedom of deliberation; and, in order that we may arrive at wise conclusions upon subjects that may be discussed in this body, it seems at least, in this early period of the session, it is better not to engraft upon our rules the order for the previous question. Mr. SMITH-I offer the following resolution,The PRESIDENT-The Chair will announce that there is a pending question already with regard to this matter. It is the resolution of Mr. Sherman, which was offered yesterday. Mr. E. BROOKS-I move as an amendment to strike out from the report all which refers to the previous question. Mr. SMITH-That was the amendment I was about to offer. The PRESIDENT-The Chair submits whether this amendment is hardly germane 'to the resolution from the gentleman from Oneida [Mr. Sherman]. Mr. E. BROOKS-I should desire then to present it in the form of a minority report to the resolution. Mr. SHERMAN-I would suggest that we should first proceed with a consideration of the rules in the manner I suggested yesterday, and the gentleman from Richmond [Mr. E. Brooks,] can move his amendment when the rule is reached which relates to the previous question, and at the same time, the amendment of the gentleman from Fulton [Mr. Smith,] can be properly moved. Mr. SMITH-There would be no objection is that, if it were not that the previous question to incorporated into several of these rules which would make it necessary to offer three or four, or half a dozen different amendments, whereas one amendment would cover the whole ground, and if satisfactory to the Convention, it would eliminate the previous question from the whole report. Mr. GRAVES-Since the adjournment of the Convention yesterday, I have examined with some attention the rules adopted by the Convene tion of 1821. They are concise in their language, and practical in their operation, and I see no good reason why they could not be with propriety adopted for the control of the deliberations of this Convention. For that purpose I offer the following resolution, accompanying it with the proceedings of the Convention of 1821, from which the rules may be read if desired by this Convention. The PRESIDENT-The Chair considers that the pending question is that of the gentleman from Oneida [Mr. Sherman] and he can only receive an amendment to that resolution. Mr. RATHBUN-Is not the question whether the Convention will now proceed to consider the report of the Committee on rules? The PRESIDENT-Yes, and the manner in which they are to be taken up. Mr. RATHBUN-Then I suppose the only amendment is as to whether we will take up these rules and consider them. The PRESIDENT-Does the gentleman from Richmond, [Mr. E. Brooks] offer any amendment, or does he offer a minority report? Mr. E. BROOKS-Yes, sir; I offer it as a minority report, and therefore I move to strike out all in the report that refers to the previous question. The PRESIDENT-The entry will be made upon the journal, that the gentleman from Richmond [Mr. E. Brooks] makes a minority report; 44 and the question now is upon adopting the majority report. Mr. WEED-May I ask what that motion is? The PRESIDENT-It is that the Convention now proceed to act upon this report by separate rules. Mr. WEED- If this is not a divisible question, I think it should be. I ask that we may take the vote separately, first, upon taking up the rules, and then we may decide in what manner we shall consider them. The PRESIDENT-The rules have already been read. Mr. WEED-Are they properly then before this body? The PRESIDENT-They are, and the simple question is, whether they shall be considered by seperate rules, or as a whole. Mr. ROGERS demanded the ayes and noes. Not a sufficient number seconding the call the ayes and noes were not ordered. The question was then put upon the resolution of the gentleman from Oneida, [Mr. Sherman,] as follows: Resolved, That the rules be read separately, and that, except when a separate vote is demanded, or amendments made, they be considered adopted without a formal vote. Which was adopted. Mr. GREELEY-I would suggest that the Secretary read until he come to a rule to which somebody objects. The Secretary then proceeded to read the first rule reported by the Committee and no objection being made thereto, it was declared adopted. The Secretary then proceeded to read the second rule. Mr. C. C. DWIGHT-I suggest that in the 4th subdivision of the second rule, the word "legislative " is inappropriate. I suppose our days are not " legislative " days. The PRESIDENT-What amendment does the gentleman from Cayuga [Mr. C. C. Dwight] propose? Mr. C. C. DWIGHT-I propose to strike out the word "legislative." The question was then put on the amendment of Mr. C. C. Dwight, and it was declared lost. The Secretary then proceeded to the Third Rule. Mr. T. W. DWIGHT-I think there is an apparent conflict between the first sub-division and the third; one refers to the " communications from individuals and from public bodies," and the other to "communications from State officers." I would add to the first sub-division after "bodies" the words "other than those mentioned in the third sub-division of this rule." Mr. SHERMAN-There is no objection to the adoption of the amendment that I can see, although it strikes me as surplusage. Mr. T. W. DWIGHT-It seems to me, sir, that the words " State officers" includes individuals. The first sub-division says, "and communications from individuals;" the third sub-division says, "communications from State officers." There can be no doubt about it. The question was then put on the amendment of Mr. T. W. Dwight, and it was declared lost. Mr. ROBERTSON-I have two amendments to propose. The first sentence of rule 3 is "The correction of any error that may be found to exist therein." I propose to strike out the words "that may be found to exist," and after "therein" insert "and insertion of omissions therefrom." As it reads now it seems as if it was only to correct misstatements in the journal, and not include anything that was omitted. The second amendment I offer is to strike out the words " messages from the Governor." With all due respect to himself and his office, I think,this might be included under communications from State officers, as it would imply that there was some direct relation between us and the Governor, and it would be better not to insert " messages from the Governor" m these rules. MR. SHERMAN-I do not see how an omission can be regarded as anything but an error; therefore, the first amendment seems to me entirely unnecessary. In regard to the order of business-" messages from the Governor," I will state such a case as this might occur: Communications from Conventions of other States might be addressed to the Governor, and he, would be the proper organ of communication with this body. I have no doubt in the sessions of the Convention many such cases will occur, and for that reason, I think, this order of business should be retained. The question was then put on the amendments of Mr. Robertson, and they were declared to be lost. Mr. OPDYKE -Mr. President, I move to amend the second subdivision of this section by substituting the word " communications" for " messages." It seems to me that the word " messages" implies an official relation between the governor and this body, which does not exist. I think the word " communications" more appropriate. The question was then put on the amendment of Mr. Opdyke, and it was declared to be adopted. The question was then put on the adoption of rule 3 as amended, and it was declared adopted. The Secretary then proceeded to read rule 4. There being no objection thereto, it was declared adopted. The Secretary then proceeded to read rule 5, and it was declared by the President to be adopted. The Secretary then read rule 6. Mr. SHERMAN-" Or the" in the last line but one is a misprint. It should be "and." The Secretary then proceeded to read rule 7. Mr. BAKER offered the following amendment to the seventh rule: "And such request shall not be withdrawn without the unanimous consent of the Convention." The question was then put on the amendment of Mr. Baker, and it was declared lost. Mr. FOLGER-I desire to ask the Chairman of the Committee on Rules, for what reason there is a change made in the time of members being privileged to ask for their excuse. Ordinarily, it is when the roll is being called, when their name is reached. Mr. SHERMAN-The reason is, that if the request is made before the roll call is commenced it is likely to take much less time than if it were 45 made during the call of the roll. There will be, probably, fewer requests if made before the roll call. At that time many members might ask to be excused, while their names were being called, who would not do it previous to that time. This rule is in accordance with the practice which has prevailed for a number of years in the Assembly of this State, and that is the only recommendation for its adoption. My own personal choice would be to see it stricken out altogether. Mr. ALVORD-I am not aware that the statement last made by the gentleman is correct. It is not so far as regards my own experience as presiding officer of the Assembly and as a member of it goes. I never had any other rule before me for my action, except that a person was entitled, on the call to give reasons for the excuse, if he should ask for it when his name was reached upon the roll call. For instance, if a person should be out when the roll call was commenced, and should stay but a moment, when he returns he would find himself under the rule announced, bound to vote. He would have no time to make his excuse: or his attention may be called to another direction upon the announcement of the roll call. It seems to me it will take no more time when the roll is being called, when the person's name is reached, to make the excuse than it would at any other time. I, therefore, move as an amendment to restore the rule as it is in the Assembly, by striking out the word "before." Mr. DEVELIN-I would ask the Chairman of the Committee on Rules whether the time which a person might occupy to give an excuse was not limited by the Assembly rule. Under this rule a person might speak all day giving an excuse. Five minutes was the rule at the last session. Mr. SHERMAN-There was in the Assembly rule a limit of five minutes, and we have provided for the same thing in a somewhat different way. This rule provides that he shall state concisely, without argument, his excuse. I do not see how any member can occupy a whole day in stating concisely, and without argument, his request to be excused from voting. Mr. WEED-By rule 7 of the Assembly of last year, from which this is copied, a person could, when his name was called, ask to be excused and then state his reasons. I imagine that the committee upon rules omitted to state-perhaps they may have done so-the words that allowed him to make the explanation at the time his name was called, and with the permission of the Convention I will read the fore part of the rule, showing what words are out: "Any member requesting to be excused from voting, may make, when his name is called, or immediately after the roll shall have been called, and before the result shall be announced, a brief statement of the reasons for making such request, not exceeding five minutes." It seems to me that this rule should be limited to briefly stating the facts-stating the reasons. As long as he states facts and not arguments under this rule he may talk half of the day, if they are reasons why he asks to be excused It seems to me the position taken by the gentleman from Onondaga [Mr. Alvord] is proper that a person may ask to be excused when his name is called. In bodies of this size members may be careless, and before the roll call is commenced many members will not know what the question is and before their name is called they will have ascertained and may have reasons why they desire to be excused; and it is when their names are called in the roll that they should have the right, it seems to me, to briefly state their reasons for asking to be excused. I hope, therefore, the motion of the gentleman from Onondaga [Mr. Alvord] that the rule may be amended so as to be substantially the same as the 7th rule of Assembly of last year will prevail. The Secretary then read the amendment of Mr. Alvord as follows: " Strike out the words ' before the roll call shall be commenced,' and insert in lieu thereof the words ' when his name is called on the roll.'" The question was then put on the amendment of Mr. Alvord, and it was declared to be adopted. Mr. ALVORD offered the further additional amendment: add at the end thereof the following: "But he shall not use for such purpose more than five minntes of time." Which was adopted. Mr. SHERMAN-I think this rule may be still further improved by striking it out altogether. I make that motion. Mr. GOULD-What will be the effect of that rule?-I should like to understand it? It is plain to me that a member cannot be excused from voting if this rule is stricken out. If this is so I hope it will not be stricken out. Mr. ARCHER-The effect of striking out that rule will be to leave the rules as they were under the old parliamentary practice, by which every member was obliged to vote who was within the bar of the house when the question was stated by the Chair, unless he was personally interested in the result of the action. That has always been the rule so far as my acquaintance extends, until within a few years last past, and I have seen no good resulting from the adoption of this rule. On the contrary, I have seen much valuable time wasted in calling the roll and hearing excuses under this rule. Mr. WEEDER-I would call the attention of the gentleman from Oneida [Mr. Sherman], who offers this motion to strike out the 7th rule, that that would be inconsistent with the provisions of the 6th rule, which provides, that a member shall vote unless he be excused or be personally interested in the question. If there be power in the Convention to excuse a member from voting, there certainly should be some provision when he can make his excuse, and how much time he may be allowed to occupy in presenting that excuse. Mr. SHERMAN-If my motion should be adopted it would be necessary to go back to the sixth rule and strike out the word "excuse" there. Mr. LAPHAM1-I offer the following amendment. Mr. VEEDER-I understand the motion to be to strike out the rule. I do not think it is in order to make a motion to amend it. The PRESIDENT-In the opinion of the Chair it takes precedence.. 46 The Secretary then read the amendment of Mr. Lapham as follows: " Any member requesting to be excused from voting, may make, when his name is called, or immediately after the roll shall have been called, and before the result shall have been announced, a brief statement of the reasons for making such request, not exceeding five minutes in time, and the question shall then be taken without debate, and such request shall not be withdrawn without the unanimous consent of the Convention." Mr. TILDEN-It seems to me quite clear that the Assembly rule is much better than any of the amendments that have been proposed. It is simple, distinct, well-expressed and in conformity to all the recent practice of legislative bodies. I hope this amendment will be adopted. The question was then put on the amendment of Mr. Lapham and it was declared carried. Mr. GREELEY-I move this as a substitute, in accordance with the remarks of the gentleman from Wayne, [Mr. Archer] which impressed me as exceedingly forcible. "No member present in the Convention when the yeas and nays are ordered on any question shall leave the house till he shall have voted, and no member so present shall be excused from voting, unless he be personally interested in the decision. I think that is the right rule, that every member shall vote who is here; that he shall not run out and shall not be excused. It will save time and give us a full vote. I ask this to be substituted for the rule as it now stands. Mr. E. A. BROWN-I ask for the experience of parliamentarians, if it be true as a principle of parliamentary law as stated by the gentleman from Wayne [Mr. Archer], that a legislative body has not the power, if a member asks to be excused from voting to exercise that power, and grant such excuse? It seems to me that it must be inherent in such a body as this, and any legislative body, to excuse for any cause any of its members from voting upon any question. And the object of such rule must be to limit debates that may arise during the call of the roll and the taking of the vote, and prevent debates upon that question of excuse by confining persons asking to be excused to a simple statement of the reasons upon which the request is based. So that if we have not that rule, if I am correct in my supposition, whenever a member asks to be excused, the debate is open to every member, and without limit any more than it is upon any other question; and the purpose of the rule must be, and the benefits growing out of it must be expected to limit such debate, and to restrict such discussion. I am in favor of substituting the Assembly rules. Mr. CLINTON-Beyond the excuse of interest in the question pending before the Convention, I can imagine one case in which it would be contrary to my conscience to vote. I wish that liberty preserved. I wish that every vote which I, or any other member may give, shall be conscientiously given, and with a knowledge of what he is doing. Now, the substitute of the gentleman from Westchester, [Mr. Greeley] as I regard it, puts a man in this position: I have not heard a debate. The question is new to me. I come in at the close of the debate. Then, under this substitute if it is adopted, I am asked to say under which King Benzonian-speak or dielI am unwilling that any vote of mine-or vote of any gentleman here, should be dictated by mere leadership, or by any party considerations. I wish my vote to be intelligent; and if I have not heard an argument and do not understand the subject I will not vote, and the consequence must be, under the rule, that the sergeant-at-arms, I suppose, will'take me into custody. Mr. LOEW-I observe that a great portion of the substitute offered by the gentleman from Westchester [Mr. Greeley], is already incorporated in the sixth rule, " Every member who shall be within the bar of the Convention when a question shall be stated from the Chair, shall vote thereon unless he be excused or be personally interested in the question." Mr. VAN CAMPEN offered the following amendment to the amendment offered by Mr. Greeley. Insert after the word "voted" the following: " And that the doors and windows of the Chamber be closed by the Sergeant-at-Arms, and the members of the Convention be kept in close custody whenever the yeas and nays are ordered, and until the call of the roll be completed." [Laughter]. The question being put on the resolution of Mr. Van Campen, it was declared to be lost. Mr. GREELEY-With very great respect for the gentleman from Erie [Mr. Clinton,] who has made the objection to this rule, it seems to me that he has proposed to make the neglect of one duty the justification for the neglect of another duty. We are here to listen to debates. This is a part of our duty. The gentleman says: "I have not heard the debate, and therefore, having refused or neglected to perform one duty, I ask that I may be allowed to neglect another." I think it is the duty of gentlemen to be hero and to hear debates on the question. It is the old parliamentary rule, that gentlemen ought to vote, and I think that we ought to abide by it. Mr. CLINTON-That may be true, yet there are a great variety of duties which are incumbent upon ns. We are not merely here as members of the Convention; we have divers other relations. There are duties even superior to my duty to be present here to listen to whatever may fall from the gentleman from Westchester [Mr. Greeley], or any other gentleman who has the ability to enlighten me. I may hate a friend who is sick; an accident may happen to my wife, or something may require me to be absent during the debate, and yet permit me to come in at the close of it. It does not follow that I contemplate any neglect of my duty. Mr. HALE —I hope the amendment of the gentleman from Westchester [Mr. Greeley] will not prevail. I submit that it is in violation of that amendment of the Constitution of the United States, the existence of which the gentleman from Westchester is undoubtedly aware, which provides that neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime, shall be permitted in this country. I do not propose 47 that any rule shall be adopted by which members of this Convention shall be held in. involuntary servitude during the time the roll is being called. Mr. FULLER-I rise to a question of order. The 6th rule has already been adopted in the Convention. The amendment of the gentleman from Westchester [Mr. Greeley] virtually repeals that rule, and that cannot be done except by reconsideration of the vote by which that rule was adopted. The PRESIDENT-The point of order is well taken. Mr. ROGERS-I ask if the previous question is in order on this last amendment? The PRESIDENT-The previous question may be moved. Mr. ROGERS-Then I move the previous question. The PRESIDENT-On further consideration the chair is of the opinion that the motion of the gentleman from New York [Mr. Rogers,] is hardly pertinent, in view of the present state of the question. The question was put on the amendment of Mr. Greeley, and it was declared to be lost. Mr. HITCHMAN moved to strike out the word "unanimous" in the 7th rule of the Assembly as adopted by the Convention. Which was carried. Mr. SHERMAN-I withdraw my motion to strike out so that the question may be taken on the adoption of the rule direct. The Secretary then read the rule as amended in words as follows: "Any member requesting to be excused from voting, may make, when his name is called, or immediately after the roll shall have been called, and before the result shall be announced, a brief statement of the reasons for making such request, not exceeding five minutes in time, and the question shall then be takeh without debate, and such request shall not be withdrawn without the consent of the Convention." The question was then put on the adoption of the rule as amended, and it was declared adopted. Mr. BERGEN-I move to insert the following as Rule 8, after Rule 7, in Chapter 3: "Rule 8. Every member shall be entitled at all times to enter within the bar of the Convention, except when otherwise provided by these rules." Is the proposed amendment in order? The. PRESIDENT-It is. Mr. BERGEN-The object of this amendment is to have the doors open in the morning while the Chaplain is making his prayer. I have seen members, and I myself have been stopped and not allowed to enter the Chamber because the Chaplain was engaged at prayers. I do not know that this body is any more pious than the Congress of the United States. Members of Congress are allowed to enter the hall while the Chaplain is engaged at prayer. I don't know that we are any more pious than people are in our churches, and I believe that all churches are allowed to remain open during prayers by the chaplain or parsonat any rate, I have never in my travels found a church door closed while prayers were going on. But. here, I say, I have found the doors closed, and by whose authority I do not know. I have 'found nothing in the rules authorizing it, and my object in offering this rule to be incorporated, is to prevent this practice of closing the doors against members. I may be in error, but I wish to put this matter to the test of the vote of the Convention. The PRESIDENT-Does the gentleman propose to make this a distinct rule-the Chair so understands. Mr. BERGEN-Yes sir. Mr. LAPHAM-I rise to a question of order. The amendment proposed by the member from Kings [Mr. Bergen], does not relate to the conduct of persons or the government of this body. It refers to the duties of the Sergeant-at-Arms. Mr. BERGEN-It refers to the privileges of members, and it is held to be one of the privileges of members to enter this hall unless excluded by the rules. The doors may be closed upon a call of the House, as it may be done here. But I hold it to be the privilege of a member to come in at any time unless excluded by the rules. The PRESIDENT-The Chair is of the opinion that the point of order is not well taken. Mr. SHERMAN-It strikes me that the rule as proposed by the gentleman from Kings [Mr. Bergen], is entirely unnecessary. Members have the right to enter the hall except during the call of the House, and no officer has a right to exclude them. Mr. BERGEN-By what right then have I been excluded? The PRESIDENT-The Chair can only say that it is not by its direction, and the Chair is informed that what has been done has been done according to custom by direction of the Clerk. Mr. RATHBUN-I move that the amendment lie on the table. The PRESIDENT-It is the opinion of the Chair that that would carry the whole subject with it. Mr. RATHBUN - This proposes an independent rule, as the previous rules have been adopted, I submit that it is not in the power of the Convention to lay them on the table. The PRESIDENT-The Chair will entertain the motion. Mr. BERGEN-As I am informed that the doors are to. be open during the hour of prayer that is all I desire, and if that is understood I am willing to withdraw the motion for the additional rule. The Secretary then proceeded to read the 8th, 9th, 10th, 11th, 12th, 13th and 14th rules, and no objection being made thereto, their were declared adopted. The Secretary then read the 15th rule. Mr. SHERMAN-This is no part of the report of the Committee, and is not to be considered now, I think. Mr. HARRIS-I hope the Convention will proceed to consider this now, as it has been inserted here as a portion of the rules, and not improperly, I think. Why not proceed to consider this portion of the rules now? The PRESIDENT-The chair understands that it constitutes no part of the report of the committee, and it can only be considered by way of amendment. 48 Mr. SHERMAN-If it is the wish of the Con- king out all after the word " except," and to substi vention to proceed and consider this matter now, tute therefore the following:-" That the yeas and I seeno objection to it. I simply mentioned that nays shall not be taken on a division." The obit was no part of the report of the Committee, ject of that amendment is to get rid entirely of and not to be considered as such now. the "previous question" whenever it may be inMr. TILDEN-It occurs to me there is a prac- corporated, or any allusion made to it in any one tical difficulty in considering this question at the of the rules, and if the proposition be favorably present time The report made by my friend received by the Convention, it will be only one from Albany.[Mr. Harris] contains not merely the of a series of motions to strike out, wherever the constitution of these several committees, but an "previous question" occurs. I offer this amendorder of reference to these committees. That is ment for the purpose of testing the sense of the not contained in these rules, and could not well Convention in regard to the necessity and probe, because it would not be appropriate, as my priety of the adoption by this body of the prehonorable friend will see if he will observe the vious question, and from a conviction that it is first clause: " Standing Committees shall be not only unnecessary, but that it is unworthy the appointed by the President to consider and report character and beneath the dignity of this body severally upon the following subjects, and such to adopt it. It is well known to members that others as may be referred to them." The report that question has been entirely perverted from which was made yesterday, provides that the its original design and use, and has become several parts of the Constitution relating to these simply an instrument for the suppression of debate. subjects shall be referred to these Committees, It was instituted originally by the British Parliaand I think it will be needful to amend this ment for the purpose of suppressing questions rule in order to effect that object. I suggest, of a delicate character, which related to persontherefore, that we better omit the consideration ages of high standing, and questions, the discusof this report at this time, and proceed with the sion of which might result in mischievous or rules. unfortunate consequences, and when that question The PRESIDENT-It will be omitted as a mat- was put, a vote in the negative was always sought, ter of course. It forms no part of the report, and when that was obtained it suppressed the and only can come in by way of an amendment. question, but to this day, in the British Parliament, Mr. SILVESTER-In the report of the cornm- it is not used for the purpose of suppressing mittee on rules yesterday, there were several debate. There are some instances in which that committees that were named in that report. may be serviceable; it may be serviceable in cases The PRESIDENT-The Chair will inform the where there are cliques or rings, who have certain gentleman that there is no question before the schemes or measures which they want to press Convention. through a body, without ventilation or discussion. Mr. SILVESTER-I wish simply to inquire of But Sir, there is no necessity for the rule in this the Chair, whether the committees that were re- body for that purpose, for it is to be presumed ported by the Committee on Rules, and which that no such cliques or rings exist here; and if were contained in their report, are now to be there were such, they should neither receive aid considered by the Convention or not. They from the rules, nor comfort from the body. It reported four committees which are not in the is sometimes perhaps necessary in legislative report this morning-the Committee on Privileges bodies, where there may be a factious minority, and Elections, the Committee on Printing, the who seek to throw impediments in the way Committee on Contingent Expenses, and the Corn- of legislation, but it is not necessary I appremittee on Engrossment and Enrollment. hend in this body to provide for such a Mr. SHERMAN-There were reported by the case as that; there is no such factious minority Committee on Rules four business committees, here. Some things have been said in regard to which have been accidentally omitted in thd print- majorities, or to the majority and the minority and ing. They will be found in document No. 2 which to parties. I confess, sir, that such language has was laid before the Convention. They are-the fallen unpleasantly upon my ear; they have Committee on privileges and elections; printing; seemed like words of ill omen. For the purpose contingent expenses, and engrossment and enrol- of revising the organic law of the State, there is ment. These are the only committees reported in this body no majority and no minority; by the committee on rules. there are no parties here; we are all repubThe Secretary then proceeded to read the 16th licans, we are all democrats. We came here rule. not for the purpose of framing an organic law Mr. DEVELIN-May I inquire whether that for any party, or any sect, or any clasS, or refers to the report made by my friend from Al- any interest; but for the people of the State bany (Mx. Harris), as it says all reports of cornm- of New York in all their interests, vast and mittees? varied as they are, material and moral. I preThe PRESIDENT-The Chair hardly thinks it sume that none have come here with the view of does. influencing this body to do any such thing for a No objection being made to rule 16th, it was partizan purpose, and if they came with that declared adopted. view it would be the most consummate folly to The Secretary then proceeded to read the 17th attempt it, for in a country like ours, young, and 18th rules, and no objection being made growing rapidly, and developing, where party thereto, they were declared adopted. issues and questions are changing and OhiftThe Secretary then read the 19th rule. ing like the sands of the shore, if Mr. SMITH-I move to amend rule 19th by stri- any should attempt to frame a constitution 49 for partizan purposes, they might find, in a few revolutions of the political wheel, that they had constructed or an instrument that might serve to crush them. It may be thought by some, that without the use of this question, debates may become tedious and prolix; I do not apprehend that; there are other rules, as has already been suggested by the gentleman froqi Richmond [Mr. E. Brooks], which will meet that difficulty. I, sir, came here for the purpose of discussion, and I do not wish to suppress it; I desire to hear all that may be said upon all the grave and important questions that will come before us; and for one, I desire to hear especially from those who may differ from me upon any question which may arise, I desire to have a full amd free discussion, and to gather all the information and all the ideas I am able to, from all persons, not only from those within this body but from without; and I have been thankful to those gentlemen outside, who have taken so much interest in this Convention, as to present us with their views upon the questions that may here arise. I do not believe that any previous question will be necessary, and I believe it will be more compatible with the dignity and character of this body to entirely eliminate it from the rules of the Convention. Mr. SPENCER-I move to postpone the further consideration of this rule until after the Convention shall have acted upon rule 29. Mr. WEED-I suggest to the gentleman who made this motion, that the question may be taken as well here, whether there is to be a previous question incorporated in the rules, as at any other time. If the gentleman will cast his eye along the report he will see there are other rules thatiwill have to be passed upon or postponed, until the 29th rule is discussed. If this body shall see fit to retain the previous question in this rule, then these others may be passed without ally motion being made upon them. If they shall see fit to strike it out, then the other rules may be amended, as a matter of course, as we come to them. Mr. HALE-It strikes me that the motion of the gentleman from Steuben [Mr. Spencer] should prevail, although the gentleman from Clinton [Mr. Weed] suggests that the question may as well be taken now, as to whether we shall have the previous question or not, still, as the previous question may be retained, if not in its present form, yet in a modified form, I think it would be the simpler way for us first to decide upon this important proposition, when we consider the rule which directly provides for the previous question. It strikes me that will be the simpler formof getting at iL. Mr. VEEDER-I think the consideration of this previous question should be postponed. The Convention will observe, if we should strike out this provision here, in regard to the previous question, and should still retain subsequently the right to move the previous question, then under that rule it would be the privilege of any member of the Convention to move the previous question in Committee of the Whole. If we strike it out here, still it may be retained as a part of the provision of the rule to move tho previous question, 7 and then that rule will allow the previous question to. be moved in Committee of the Whole, a provision which never has existed before. I therefore submit, we had better postpone the consideration of this rule now, because if it is retained we shall have to move to restore this provision. Mr. SHERMAN-It strikes me the best mode of proccedieg would be to pass over this rule informally, or to postpone it, and take it up when we come to the previous question in the 4th subdivision of rule 23. Mr. SPENCER-I have no objection to tha4 and accept the suggestion of my friend. No further amendments being made thereto rule 19 was declared to be adopted. The Secretary then read rule 20, 21 and 22, and there being no objection made thereto, they were declared to be adopted. Mr. SMITH offered the following amendment to strike out in the 4th sub-division the words "For the previous question." Mr. AXTELL-I hope the provision will be retained. As to the remarks of the gentleman from Richmond [Mr. E. Brooks,] as to what is becoming this body to do, the body itself must decide. If this body shall retain the previous question, it will be becoming, and it will be dignified also. The argument against retaining the previous question, as I understand it, is, that it is not in the rules of the Senate of this State and not in the rules of the Senate of the United States. I call the attention of the Convention to the fact that these are smaller bodies; but in bodies of this size the previous question will be fbund very convenient, and will contribute to the despatch of business. I know that the British House of Commons and Parliament has been cited as a body in which the previous question is not used for the suppression of debate, but the British House of Commons is not a model so far as the mode of conducting its debates is concerned; not having the previous question, it has altogether a more summary method of suppressing debate, by turning the House of Commons into a bear garden, or menagerie, or something of that kind. I submit that the previous question will contribute to the dignity of this body and will facilitate the despatch of business. Mr. ARCHER-The majority of the Committee, on Rules inserted the provision under consideration believing it was necessary, or that it might become necessary for the despatcl of the business for which we are called together. In the Conven-, tion of 1846, when I first came here, I entertained the same opinion that has been expressed. by, some gentleman upon the floor, that the previous question was entirely- unnecessary to any such body and would be improper; but the then majority inserted it and it was practiced before the Convention closed. I was obliged to yield and to admit to the friends who told me in the outset that I was wrong, that 1 was in error with regard to it, and I found that the practical working of the rule were salutarv. We can readi1v conceive that in a body as large as this, 'it may b'ecom'O absolutely necessary for us to limit debate. There is such a thin as exhausting a subject. and, after all has been said that may be pertinently said upon A -subject, it is due to our con and then that rule will allow the previous question to be moved in Committee of the Whole, a provision which never has existed before. I therefore submit, we had better postpone the consideration of this rule now, because if it is retained we shall have to move to restore this provision. Mr. SHERMAN-It strikes me the best mode of proceedieg would be to pass over this rule informally, or to postpone it, and take it up when we come to the previous question in the 4th subdivision of rule 23. Mr. SPENCER-I have no objection to that, and accept the suggestion of my friend. No further amendments being made thereto rule 19 was declared to be adopted. The Secretary then read rule 20, 21 and 22, and there being no objection made thereto, they were declared to be adopted. Mr. SMITH offered the following amendment to strike out in the 4th sub-division the words "For the previous question." Mr. AXTELL-I hope the provision will be retained. As to the remarks of the gentleman from Richmond [Mr. E. Brooks,] as to what is becoming this body to do, the body itself must decide. If this body shall retain the previous question, it will be becoming, and it will be dignified also. The argument against retaining the previous question, as I understand it, is, that it is not in the rules of the Senate of this State and not in the rules of the Senate of the United States. I call the attention of the Convention to the fact that these are smaller bodies; but in bodies of this size the previous question will be found very convenient, and will contribute to the despatch of business. I know that the British House of Commons and Parliament has been cited as a body in which the previous question is not used for the suppression of debate, but the British House of Commons is not a model so far as the mode of conducting its debates is concerned; not having the previous question, it has altogether a more summary method of suppressing debate, by turning the House of Commons into a bear garden, or menagerie, or something of that kind. I submit that the previous question will contribute to the dignity of this body and will facilitate the despatch of business. Mr. ARCHER-The majority of the Committee on Rules inserted the provision under consideration believing it was necessary, or that it might become necessary for the despatch of the business for which we are called together. In the Convention of 1846, when I first came here, I entertained the same opinion that has been expressed by some gentleman upon the floor, that the previous question was entirely unnecessary to any such body and would be improper; but the then majority inserted it and it was practiced before the Convention closed. I was obliged to yield and to admit to the friends who told me in the outset that I was wrong, that I was in error with regard to it, and I found that the practical workings of the rule were salutary. We can readily conceive that in a body as large as this, it may become absolutely necessary for us to limit debate. There is such a thing as exhausting a subject, and after all has been said that may be pertinently said upon a subject, it is due to our con 50 stituents and to the people of the State that we shut down debate and come to a decision of the subject matter before us. It may be, sir, that without some such stringent rule as provided for in the report of the Committee, that a large number of gentlemen may wish to make speeches to go forth to the State after it is evident to the members of the Convention that not one word more can be said that will influence a vote. And it is for the reason that we thought it might be necessary that a majority, -I am not now speaking of political majorities, or of the majority of one party or the other-but I say, a majority of the members of this Convention having the appropriate business of this body directly in mind, should always have under its control the action of this body, and, therefore, I hope the amendment will not prevail Mr. LARREMORE-I have listened with a great deal of pleasure to the remarks of the gentleman from Wayne, [Mr. Archer,] and I certainly think there is a great distinction between limiting a debate and shutting it off altogether. If w-e come here to represent our constituents in a State Convention, it is certainly proper, and within the privileges of this house, that each individual member of it should have the right to give free expression to his opinion upon any question that may come before it. I hope therefore, the motion of the gentleman from Fulton [Mr. Smith] will prevail. This House has control of its own action, and if the privilege is at all abused we can at any time limit the time of the debate so that no member shall abuse his privileges. The gentleman has referred to political majorities. I am sorry he did so, because I have seen nothing in the action of this Convention to awaken any suspicions of that kind. And I think this will be the first act, if we adopt this question and incorporate the previous question into our rules,-It will be the first thing in my judgment looking towards partizanship in the deliberation of this body. Mr. ARCHER —I beg leave to correct the gentleman from New York, [Mr. Larremore]. I distinctly stated that I had no reference to a political party or a political majority, but I had reference to the majority of the men, irrespective of party, on this floor who had distinctly in mind and first in heart the proper business which has called us together. Mr. LARREMORE-I misunderstood the gentleman on that subject then. Mr. S. TOWNSEND-I agree with my colleague [Mr. Archer] entirely upon his recollections upon this subject. I can very well remember when we were in the Convention of 1846, when it was adopted in the first instance, but little used and when finally we passed the fifteen minutes limitation rule I said that in all my previous legislative experience I had never seen the necessity of voting for the previous question, at any rate I had never seen the necessity existing to such a degree, as to require my vote. But in those bodies with which I have had the honor of being previously associated I found there was a certain and almost fixed ratio or number of floor members, I think in a body of 128 members, it was about 25 gentlemen who would have occasion at various times, lengthily or otherwise, to occupy the attention of the House, and I know from the experience I had in that Convention, that constitutional conventions are in some respects peculiar bodies. I remember on one occasion in the Convention, that I predicted there was no member present of our body but was perfectly competent, and who would not prove himself so, to rise and address the chair at length or briefly, and at last toward the close of the Convention the joke went around as a gentleman would arise for the first time, "there is another one of your men," And I believe one very important question, of striking out a provision we had made, that we thought would be unanimously adopted, which was the constitutional provision, that no person should exercise a franchise who could not read the English language, was done in this way: It was stricken out at a very late period of the session by a gentleman who only spoke upon that occasion, but who spoke so effectively that it was negatived unanimously. And thus, from my experience in that Convention, I was induced for the first time in my public career to vote for the limitation of debate. I should prefer that for the present we should omit this matter of the previous question until we get along a little further, and then if we find it necessary at any time to restrict the debate, we can do so, and if necessary adopt the previous question. Mr. E. BROOKS - I have a word or two to say, in addition to what I have already said upon this subject. I regret exceedingly in the formation of this Committee, that a division of the Committee became necessary, in the way it did (although it was perfectly fair and just on the part of the Chairman), yet the division became necessary, and there were three who were in favor of this proposition, and two who were in the minority, were opposed to it. I do not believe, as I have already said, that, at this stage of the session of this Convention, such a harsh measure as this, is necessary. I do not believe that, on the part of the minority of this body, it is necessary to make any such distinctions, or that there is any purpose or desire to abuse the privileges of debate, or to trespass upon the time of this body, or to do anything unbecoming the members of this Convention; nor do I believe there is any purpose on the part of the so-called majority, so to control or regulate, or to infringe upon the rights of debate, as to oppress the minority. But I can conceive, as every gentleman of legislative experience must conceive, of a certain state of proceedings, where the previous question will operate very greatly to the public disadvantage. The effect of it is not merely to cut off debate, but to cut off amendments and propositions of the most important character, which any gentleman may be ready to submit, and which it will be impossible to submit under a previous question. It is not, therefore, merely in its effect to curtail debate, but to prevent it, and to cut off all such deliberate and enlightened propositions as may be in the possession of the members of the Convention themselves. Therefore I hope, Mr. President, that, at this stage of the proceedings,4t will not be deemed necessary to adopt this harsh and stringent rule. It is very true, as has been said, there is no pre 51 vious question in the British Parliament, and the British House of Commons has been characterized by one gentleman on the other side of the House as a sort of bear garden; but, sir, with all respect to the deliberations of the Senate of the United States of America, and with all proper disrespect to the debates upon the other side of the Atlantic, let me say that a subject in the British House of' Commons is as thoroughly and intelligibly dis. cussed as in any deliberative body in the world. It is not a question of mere forensic eloquence not a question where speeches are made for home consumption and for Buncombe, but where members address themselves, as they ought to address themselves in a body like this, directly to the subject under consideration. The previous question had its origin in Great Britain over 250 years ago. It never was intended to abridge debate. But after it had been in operation for over 150 years, then it was that it was improved and used, as has been expressed by Mr. Jefferson and others, in order to prevent injurious and personal discussion. Let me very briefly read what Mr. Jefferson says upon this subject: "A proper occasion for the previous question, is when a subject is brought forward of a delicate nature, as to high personages, &c., the discussion of which may call for observations which may lead to injurious consequences." This was the original previous question, but the previous question in our day and time, in public bodies like the Assembly and like the House of Representatives in Washington, is to cut off important debate, and, as I have said already, here there are various substitutes for that; such as to put the question upon a certain day named, and upon an hour named in that day; or such as postponirg the question, if need be, and where the presiding officer will limit the discussion to the precise and technical object which is under consideration; or such as laying it upon the table, which cuts off all debate. Now, sir, when the presiding officer of this body holds a member to his strict performance of what properly is under discussion, there can be no great abuse of the question. Certainly, in a body like this, before we have been ten days in session, and where the rules of the body are always under the control of the body itself, it is not, in my judgment, necessary to adopt this measure. As I have said, Sir, if at a later period of the session, it becomes necessary to introduce this measure, growing out of any abuse in debate, I will not oppose it, and I do not believe that any large number of the Convention will. Mr. CURTIS-The previous question, Mr. President, has been retained in some form in almost every deliberative assembly, but there seems unquestionably to be some feeling upon this subject, in our revising these rules, on the part of the Convention. The gentleman who preceded me has most truly remarked, that it is a matter in which we are to be instructed by experience, and it seems to me that at the present stage of the discussion it must be evident to the Convention that it will be wiser, for the present, not to insist upon the previous question, for the reason that when the dog days set in and we shall wax more eloquent and more lengthy in our speeches, we may then find, as the gentleman from Richmond [Mr. E. Brooks] has suggested, that it may be necessary to impose the previous question in the interests of the people of the State. I hope, therefore, since my friend from Fulton [Mr, Smith] has described this body as one peculiarly fit to exercise this power, and as a body not of designing men, and not being of any political complexion, but as a body rather of sense than otherwise, in whose hands the power may fairly belong, I trust that the previous question will now at least be passed over until a later period. Mr. HARRIS-The gentleman from Richmond who has just taken his seat has said, and said it much better than I could have done, what it was my purpose to say. I have never been very friendly to the previous question, and yet it has come to be almost a common law in large bodies like this. I think it was fit and commendable in the committee on rules to present that rule for the consideration of this body, and I concur m the views which have been suggested by the gentleman from Fulton [Mr. Smith], and by the gentleman from Richmond [Mr. E. Brooks], that it would be unwise now, to adopt the previous question in this body. I believe we shall get along very well and comfortably without it. A body constituted as this, I am persuaded, will not encroach at any time upon the liberty of debate, and if we should find hereafter, that it is necessary to cut short debate, we can adopt this rule, or what will be better, we can occasionally fix a limit to the debate, or to the time when the question shall be taken by the Convention, I hope, therefore, we shall not now adopt the previous question as a part of our rules. Mr. DALY-There is a reason, Mr. President, which applies in the adoption of the previous question in legislative bodies, which does not apply in a body like this. A legislature has a large amount of business before it - a great number of bills to pass in the course of the session, and there are a great many conflicting interests in reference to the measures to be passed upon. And the previous question, as a power in the hands of such bodies, becomes a necessity for the despatch of public business. The business we have to do is comparatively small, and it will not, after it is finished, embrace much more than an ordinary act of the legislature. It requires great deliberation; it requires much discussion, and, I think, it is the experience of every person wno has examined the debates of public bodies in this country, although there may be much irrelevant and much discursive matter, yet they have the quality which distinguishes them above the debates of the British Parliament and of nearly every other public body, that every possible view of the question is examined. We are here to make a fundamental law of the State; the provisions are comparatively few. They will be carefully considered in committee before they will be submitted to us, and it is proper that the greatest latitude of debate should be allowed before they are passed upon. I sympathize most sincerely with the remarks of the gentleman on the other side of the House, with regard to the motives that actuate this body. I have hitherto been a silent spectator of it, and I have witnessed with great gratification the sincere 52 and earnest disposition evinced upon the part of what may be called a majority of this House, to do justice to the minority. It was marked in the first important measure of the President himself; it has been marked by the character of the debate throughout. It is perhaps very unfortunate that our proceedings were opened with a reference to political partialities, prejudices and powers, and it is happy that it has not been followed up. There certainly was no ground for complaint, in my judgment, involved in the complaint made originally, and I might add, perhaps, that there was as little cause for the defense offered to that complaint. I am quite satisfied that I but echo the sentiments of a large number of gentlemen who act with me, in what is called the minority, when I say I am quite satisfied with the fairness and impartiality and disinterestedness that has distinguished this Convention, and which I am satisfied will mark its deliberations throughout. I has been very justly said, Mr. Chairman, if it should ever be necessary for the despatch of public business to apply the previous question, it will be in our power to do so. I therefore, most earnestly hope it will not be made use of at this period. There is not that occasion for imprudent legislation, for haste, or for any of those consequences which are arrested by a resort to the previous question, in a body of this nature, that would be required in a legislative body. Mr. STRONG-If I was under the impression that the action of this Convention would be a partizan one, I should be very much in favor of striking out this provision, but I have better hopes; and from what has taken place in this Convention, I believe myself that each member will vote for any proposition according to the best of his understanding and without any reference to previous party considerations. I came here at any rate, with a view to support any measure, let it come from what source it may, which I believe to be a proper one and one which if adopted would be for the best interests of this people, and I intend to pursue that course. Bnt if there is any proper way in which it can be done, I am very much in favor of having some power in the Convention to stop debate; if not, it may be interminable. I do not believe, however, there will be any attempt made to stop debate upon party consideration; and if so, that could be prevented if we adopt an amendment providing that the previous question shall not be sustained except upon a vote of twothirds of the delegates present. If that is done, it would, undoubtedly, effectually prevent any party action. I beg leave to make one or two remarks, with regard to the action of the Democratic party in calling this Convention, and what I suppose will be its action hereafter. It is true, undoubtedly, that there was a considerable portion of the Democratic party who opposed the calling of this Convention, and it may be that the gentleman from Westchester [Mr. Greeley] is right, that if there had been a majority of democrats in the Assembly and Senate, the law would not have passed. But it was not because the Democratic party, or any considerable portion of it, was opposed to amending the Constitution; they have always bee in favor of that, or at least a very large portion of them, and I have no doubt if they could have been relieved from some apprehensions they had at the time, they would have been as zealous to have this convention called, as perhaps any of the opposite party. The great apprehension of the Democratic party was, that if the convention was called it would go too far; that it would take extreme measures. And they had another apprehension, too, I acknowledge, and that was, that party considerations might have an influence upon the views of' members in this convention; but when I came here, I came with the expectation that in that they were mistaken. It is true the Republican party have had a caucus and have selected the officers of the convention. That was to be expected, sir, and I do not blame them for that. It is the rule, I believe, in every body constituted as this is, and in every legislative body, that the majority should control in the selection of the officers. Against that I had no complaint, and I was very well satisfied with the selection they made and. very cheerfully voted for the officers which were selected by that caucus. But there was a resolution adopted, after they had made the nomination of officers, which looked a little toward party action, and to that I was opposed-there was a resolution calling for other caucuses of the Republican party. There could be no object to be accomplished by that, except it was to act upon public measures, because they had already made the selection of officers and there was nothing further to do with regard to that. If caucuses are to be called again, it must necessarily be with a view of controlling the party in voting for some particular measures. I trust, however, that the very honorable gentleman who was Chairman of that meeting and one of the Committee of that caucus, will not find it necessary to call a caucus with a view of considering any such measures. But if he is prevailed upon by pressure from others, or thinks proper to call them, and the idea becomes general that the caucus dictation is to control the action of this Convention, it will seriously jeopardize anything we may do. If there is an impression among the people that the gentlemen of this Convention are acting for the benefit of a particular party rather than for the public benefit of the people of the State, then my impression is that anything that may be adopted here will'be rejected. I am rather inclined to move that if the previous question is to control in any case, it shall be by a two-thirds vote; and I would make that motion. Mr. M. I. TOWNSEND-As I am the person who had the honor in the Republican caucus to move that the officers of the meeting be authorized to call future Conventions, perhaps a word is due from myself in answer to the gentleman from Suffolk [Mr. Strong]; and let me say that I made that motion with no reference to' the idea that it was possible for the Republican caucus, or any other caucus, to control my vote upon a measure to be adopted by this Convention. I don't so construe the duty of a member of this Convention. I believe it is the duty of every member in voting upon measures here to act according to the dictates of his own conscience, and it was with that reason I desired that Delegates representing Senatorial districts should not sit together. I de 53 sire that every man should act upon his individual judgment. So much in answer to the suggestion made by the gentleman from Suffolk [Mr. Strong]. I am myself, to some degree, inexperienced in official public bodies although somewhat conversant with the action of bodies unofficial; but to my appreciation, there is nothing that this Convention more needs than discussion-than debate. We are living under one of the best Constitutions that God ever gave to man for his government. We have come together to see what changes shall be made in that Constitution. We have come together when the people of this State have, to no very great degree, marked out the form of any changes that shall be made in the Constitution. They have sent us here rather to find out what changes should be made, and in what order, and in what form those changes should be put, and for the purpose of making such changes, we need the views of every man elected to this body, and I would not stifle the expression of any man's views who has the honor of a seat upon this floor It is to be presumed that every man who has been sent here has come here with the confidence of a portion of the people of this State, and if be desires to express the opinion that he entertains, for anything that I now know, I would give the fullest freedom to the expression of his sentiments. I believe that every gentleman who has come here has been a member of either one or the other of the great political parties of this State, and so far as we are members of these parties, my belief is that no great differences of opinion will prevail in respect to the instructive nature of the statements made. I expect as much benefit from the expression of views of gentlemen who have acted with the Democratic party heretofore, as from gentlemen who have acted with the Republican party. It is not the Democratic party that I fear in this Convention-what is to be feared is hasty action —action not sufficiently considerate, whether it come from one party or the other, and if there is any way to avoid hasty and inconsiderate action I hope it may be adopted. The PRESIDENT then stated that the pending question was on the amendment of Mr. Strong, which provided that the previous question should not be ordered, except on a two-thirds vote. Mr. HITCHMAN - I wish to say a word which I think will relieve this whole matter of any embarrassment. The gentleman from Kings holds an amendment which will cover the difficulty. THE PRESIDENT -The amendment suggested by the gentleman, not having been offered, the Chair cannot take cognizance of it. Mr. STRONG —The purpose of my amendment is, that a motion for the previous question cannot be sustained except upon a vote of two-thirds of those present and voting. Mr. ROGERS-On that I call for the ayes and noes. Mr. SHERMAN-I would suggest to the gentleman from Suffolk [Mr. Strong] that the proper place for his amendment would be under Rule 29. It comes in rather awkwardly at this point. Mr. ROGERS-On that, Mr. President, I call for the ayes and noes. Not a sufficient number of members seconding the call, the ayes and noes were not ordered. Mr. FERRY-I am compelled, Mr. President, to ask what is the pending question? The PRESIDENT-The question pending before the Convention is the amendment of the gentleman from Suffolk [Mr. Strong] to so amend the rule that it shall provide that the previous question shall not be sustained except upon a vote of two-thirds of the delegates present and voting. Mr. HARRIS-I hope that the amendment will not be adopted. I hope, if we are to have the previous question, we shall have it in the ordinary way, and it may be adopted by the majority; but I am against the previous question, and hope that we shall not have it at all. It will be as much of a tyranny for two-thirds to shut off the right of discussion to one-third, as if one-half should shut it off from the other half. I hope the amendment will not prevail. Mr. DEVELIN- Mr. President: I think, upon the reading of the first part of the proposed rule, the amendment proposed by the gentleman from Suffolk will be found to be entirely incongruous. The PRESIDENT - The Chair does not understand that there is any incongruity. Mr. DEVELIN -That rule provides for the order of motions. Mr. SHERMAN-Before the vote is taken, I wish to make a remark having some practical bearing on this subject. It has been stated in this debate that a sufficient substitute for the previous question might be found in bringing the debate to a close at a certain hour. The difficulty is, that a motion of that kind is not a privileged question, and could not be sustained, except by a unanimous vote. Mr. E. BROOKS-The answer to that is that we are about to adopt a rule by which we can change any rule upon one day's notice. Mr. SHERMAN-Yes, by the consent of a majority of all the members. Mr. DEVELIN-Will the President instruct the Secretary to read the entire rule as printed with the heading? The Secretary proceeded to read the rule as requested. The PRESIDENT-Will the gentleman from Suffolk send his amendment up in writing? Mr. ROBERTSON - It is very evident that this amendment, if adopted at all, should be inserted in rule 29, as rule 23 is a mere sketching of the order of proceedings of the convention. I therefore propose, if in order, that we postpone the consideration of rule 23 until after the consideration of rule 29. Mr. POND-I would suggest that the amendment would properly come in as an amendment to rule 24, and more properly than to rule 29. Rule 24 is this: " Every motion or resolution to adjourn for the day, for the previous question, and to lay on the table, shall be decided without amendment or debate. After that it may be inserted that the previous question shall not be adopted without a vote of two-thirds of those present and voting. Tho PRESIDENT —The question will be taken on the motion of the gentleman from New York [Mr. Robertsonl, as amended by the gentleman rom Saratoga [Mr. Pond]. Mr. VEEDER-I do not understand that a motion to postpone is amendable. 54 The PRESIDENT-A motion to postpone to a definite period-say until after the consideration of Rule 29-is amendable in the opinion of the Chair. Mr. TILDEN-The only proper place in which to consider any motion to regulate the previous question is under Rule 29. That is substantively the provision in respect to this matter, and whether it be decided by the Convention to strike out the Rule, or to retain it in some modified form, or in some regular form, that is the proper place for the consideration of the question. The 24th Rule, as well as the 23d, is a mere regulation of the order of priority in which certain business shall be done, and it does not touch the substance of the question now under discussion. I, therefore, have thought my friend from New York, [Mr. Robertson.] quite right in moving to postpone the consideration of Rule 23, and then when we reach Rule 24 that that should be postponed until the whole matter may come up regularly in the consideration of Rule 29. When we come to consider that, my venerable and excellent friend from Sufffolk [Mr. Strong], may propose his amendment regularly as to the mode in which the previous question can be seconded. It will then be for the. Convention to decide between the propositions now being debated before it-the one whether the previous question shall be retained, requiring a larger vote than a majority to order it, or the other, whether we shall defer the previous question altogether until experience shall have developed some necessity for its existence. For myself, I do not feel much solicitude as to which course shall be taken. I have no recollection that, in the Convention of 1846, although we had the previous question, we had occasion to resort to it, and certainly, if at all, very rarely. But, inasmuch as there is a facility to amend these rules, almost extreme in its character, I am almost inclined to agree with the gentleman from Albany [Mr. Harris] and with the gentleman from Queens [Mr. S. Townsend] in thinking that we might as well leave the question whether or not we shall have the previous question, to be determined by future experience. If it were the proposition to commit ourselves finally and absolutely to the conclusion that we would not vote in any instance to have the previous question, I should be inclined to a different opinion. Mr. MERRI1T -For the purpose of saving time I think we had better consider Rule 29, and I ask unanimous consent that we now proceed to its consideration. Mr. ROGERS-I would like to know, Mr. President, what Rule 29 is? The Secretary proceeded to read Rule 29 as reported by the Committee. Mr. ROGERS-I object. The PRESIDENT-Objection being made the qttestion will recur on the motion of the gentleman from Saratoga [Mr. Pond] to amend the motion of the gentleman from New York [Mr. Robertson] that the consideration of Rule 23 be postponed until after the consideration of Rule 24. The question was put on the motion of Mr. Pond, and it was declared carried. Rule 24, as reported by the Committee was then read by the Secretary. Mr. SMITH moved to amend by striking out the words " or the previous question." Mr. SPENCER moved to postpone the consideration of Rule 24 until after the Convention should have considered Rule 29, which was carried. Rules 25 and 26 as reported were read by the Secretary, and there being no objection thereto, they were declared adopted. Rule 28 was then read by the Secretary. Mr. STRONG-I move that the following words be stricken out of the rule as read. " Nor unless moved by one who shall have voted in the majority." I am aware that a rule of this kind has existed in Congress for a number of years, and has also existed in the House of Assembly. I have felt by experience the inconvenience of that rule in Congress during two sessions of that body. I have found that persons who were opposed to the action of the majority have nevertheless voted with the majority against their conscientious convictions, for the purpose of being able to move a reconsideration. It seems to me that a motion for a reconsideration should be made by any delegate in the Convention, and that it is the privilege belonging to each delegate which should be exercised by one in the minority as well as one in the majority. I have never discovered any instance in any body to which I have belonged where a member could not be prevailed upon to vote against his opinion, and pretty generally there has been an ability to persuade some one in the majority to vote to move for a reconsideration. I think we had better reserve the privilege to each delegate to the Convention than to have the same thing accomplished by indirect action. The questiop was put ou the amendment of Mr. Strong, and it was declared carried by a vote of - 63 ayes to 56 noes. Mr. WEED-I move to further amend by inserting after the word "day," in the third line, the words "on which a session of this Convention shall be held." As the section now reads, under the construction given in this State to a legisla tive day, a motion made on Saturday can not be reconsidered on Monday. When the word was originally incorporated in the rule it was intended to cover a day upon which the Legislature had a session. But some few years ago the AttorneyGeneral of this State decided that the Sabbath day was a legislative day, because the Legislature in, session had a right to sit upon that day, and as will be readily seen, the use of the word originally in the rule, has been so changed that a motion or action of this House on Saturday cannot be reconsidered on Monday if this rule were strictly enforced, because the motion to reconsider was not made on the next preceding legislative day, which was Sunday. I desire to call the attention of every member of this Convention to the object of the rule, it being that at the next session of this Convention, a motion may be made to reconsider any error or inaccuracy in the action of the Convention. Mr. TILDEN-This rule is doubtless well adapted to the House of Assembly, where there are a great many questions of very great impor tance to be acted upon. But in a great body of this kind, where there are comparatively few questions, and where it is expedient to allow the widest latitude for discussion and consideration, where there is not sitting another body to be a check upon its proceedings, and where there does exist no veto power on the part of the executive, it is worthy of consideration whether a more liberal rule with regard to the question of reconsideration of our action, should not prevail. In my judgment, the chief danger to be apprehended here will be that we may pass upon questions of grave importance to our constituents, too hastily, too rapidly, with too little consideration. In the Convention of 1846, the rule that prevailed was as follows: '"A motion for reconsideration shall be in order at any time, and may be moved by any member of the Convention, but the question shall not be taken on the motion to reconsider, on the same day on which the decision proposed to be reconsidered shall take place, unless by unanimous consent; and a motion to reconsider being once put and lost, shall not be renewed, nor shall any subject be a second time reconsidered without the consent of the Convention. If the motion to reconsider shall not be made on the same day or the day after that on which the decision proposed to be reconsidered was made, three days' notice of the intention to make the motion shall be given." You will perceive sir, and the Convention will perceive that this rule is in favor of reconsideration by a single body exercising far greater powers, and acting on fewer subjects than is common with legislative bodies. This subject has attracted my attention so hastily that I have not had much opportunity to consider it, but I am inclined to a more liberal rule on this subject, and for the purpose of bringing it before the attention of the Convention, I will move it as a substitute for the rule I have read for rule 28 now under consideration. Mr. WEED -For the purpose of bringing the substitute squarely before this body, I withdraw my amendment. The question was then put on the motion for the substitute of Mr. Tilden, and it was declared carried. The question then recurred on the 28th rule as amended by the substitution of the rule offered by Mr. Tilden, and it was declared adopted. The SECRETARY then read the 29th rule. Mr. GERRY offered the following substitute: " The Convention may at any time, by a vote of a majority of all its members present and voting, limit the time which its members shall respectively occupy in the discussion of any motion or resolution, and the resolution to limit the time of debate, shall be deemed a privileged motion, and shall be decided without amendment or debate." The question was put on the amendment of Mr. Gerry, and it was declared lost. Mr. BICKFORD moved to strike out Rule 29 entirely. Mr. FLAGLER-I would ask the ayes and noes on the question, as I desire' to be on the record against it. I think this debate demonstrates the necessity of having the previous question in this body. A sufficient numberseconding the call for the ayes and noes, they were ordered. Mr. MERRITT-I do not desire to detain gentlemen with any extended remarks; but it seems to have been conceded by the opponents of the previous question that a contingency may arise where it may be necessary. It has also been admitted by a member of the convention of 1846, the eminent gentleman before me [Mr. Tilden] that in that convention its exercise was not necessary. With the spirit prevailing in this convention, I think there is no danger growing out of its incorporation in the rules. Whenever the time for its exercise shall come, it is proper that we should have the power to exercise it. When I say " we" I mean the majority upon any question which comes up; and I do not speak of it in any party sense at all, I am therefore in favor of the adoption of this rule as it now stands, and I may be allowed to express the hope that there will never be any occasion for its exercise. Mr. STRONG-I believe that the previous vote was, that the amendment which I offered to the 4th sub-division of the rule should be laid over until this time. I move that there be now inserted, immediately after the word "affirmative," on the 2d line of rule 29, the words "by the vote of two-thirds of the members present and voting." Mr. BICKFORD-I will merely say that my object in moving to strike out the 29th rule is twofold. First, That we may, if we desire, insert some other rule in its place, this being cleared away; and, in the second place, that we may for the present attempt to get along without the previous question, having power at any time we wish, to adopt it, if we find it necessary for the dispatch of business. I suppose the whole of this rule may be spared. The question was then taken on the motion of Mr. Bickford to strike out the 29th rule, and the motion was declared carried by the following vote: Ayes-Messrs. Barto, Beadle, Beals, Beckwith. Bell, Bickford, Brooks. A. E. Brown, Burrill, Case, Cassidy, Champlain, Cheritree, Chesebro, Church, Clinton, Collahan, Comstock, Conger, Cooke, Cor. bett, Corning, Curtis, Daly, Develin, C. C. Dwight, Eddy, Ely, Endress, Ferry, Fowler, Garvin, Gould, Graves, Gross, Hale, Hardenburgh, Harris, Hatch, Hitchman, Hutchins, Kernan, Kinney, Larremore, Law, A. R. Lawrence, Livingston, Loew, Lowrey, Masten, Mattice, Merwin, Miller, Monell, More, Morris, Murphy, Nelson, Opdyke, Paige, A. J. Parker, C. E. Parker, President, Prosser, Reynolds, Robertson, Roy, Rogers, L. W. Russell, Schell, Schoonmaker, Seymour, Silvester, Smith Spencer, Tappen, Tilden, M. I Townsend, S. Town. send, Veeder, Wakeman, Wales, Weed, Wickham, Young-85. Noes - Messrs. A. F. Allen, C. L. Allen, Alvord, Andrews, Archer, Armstrong, Axtell, Baker, Ballard, Barker, Bergen, E. P. Brooks, Carpenter, Duganne, T. W. Dwight, Farnum, Field, Flagler, Folger, Frank, Fuller, Gerry, Greeley, Hadley, Hammond, Hitchcock, Houston, Huntington, Jarvis, Krum, Landon, Lapham, A. Lawrence, M. H. Lawrence, Ludingtonr, McDonaid, Merrill, Merritt, Pond, Prindle, Rathbun, Rolfe, Root, Rumsey, Seaver, Sheldon, Sherman, Stratton, Strong, Tucker, Van Cott, Williams. —53. Mr. SHEIRMAN moved the following as a substitute for rule 19. 56 Rule 19. The same rule shall be observed in Committee of the Whole, as in the Convention, as far as applicable, except that the yeas and nays shall not be taken on a division. The question was put on the motion of Mr. Sherman and it was declared carried. The question then recurred on the motion of Mr. Smith, to strike out sub-division 4 of Rule 23; which was carried. Mr. COOKE moved to strike out the words "or the previous question." Mr. SMITH-There is a motion pending to that effect. I offered such a motion myself. Mr. COOKE-Then I withdraw the motion. The question was then put on the motion of Mr. Smith to strike out the words "for the previous question," in rule 24, and it was declared carried. The SECRETARY then proceeded to read rule 30. Mr. WEED-I would suggest that rules 19, 23 and 24, having been amended, should be adopted by the Convention. The PRESIDENT-If there is no objection they will be considered as adopted. Mr. FIELD-I move the following amendment to rule 24. The PRESIDENT-Rule 24 having been adopted, it is hardly in order to move to adopt it. Mr. FIELD-The motion was not put. The PRESIDENT-The Chair hearing no objection to the adoption of the rules, they were considered to be adopted. Mr. FIELD moved a reconsideration of the decision adopting Rule 24. Which was lost. the Secretary then read Rules 30, 31 and 32, and there being no objections thereto they were declared adopted. The SECRETARY then proceeded to read Rule 33. Mr. SILVESTER offered the following amendment. Add as the 8th sub-division the following: ' Such person or persons as any member of the Convention may invite, but such privilege shall cease whenever the sofas upon the floor are filled.' Mr. FIELD offered the following amendment to the amendment offered by Mr Silvester: "The President may daily issue cards of admission to not more than twenty persons, who shall be entitled to admission within the bar during that day." Which was lost. Mr. POND-The Convention adopted a motion the other day extending the privileges of the floor to the Judges of the Court of Appeals. I propose to add to subdivision 8. "the Judges of the Court of Appeals.". Mr. T. W.DWIGHT-I would move to amend the amendment by adding the ex-Judges of the Court of Appeals. Mr. POND-I accept the amendment. The question was put on the amendment offered by Mr. Pond, and it was declared adopted. Mr. LARREMORE-A motion was adopted on the first day's session, extending the privileges of the floor to the members of the two former Constitutional Conventions of this State. I would move that they be included in the subdivision of the rule. The question was put on the motion of Mr. Larremore, and it was declared carried. Mr. RUMSEY offered the following amendment: Insert at the end of subdivision 7 of rule 33, the words: "By name on a special vote." Mr. RUMSEY-My object in offering the amendment is this. Congress has returned thanks, by a general vote, to the officers of the army, and without that amendment, all officers of the army would be entitled to the privileges of the floor. The question was put on the amendment of Mr. Rumsey, and it was declared carried. The question was then put on the amendment offered by Mr. Silvester as subdivision 8, relative to persons entitled to the privileges of the floor, and it was declared lost. The question then recurred on the rule as amended by adding subdivision 8, providing for the admission of Judges and ex-Judges of the Court of Appeals, and members of the two former Constitutional Conventions of this State, to the privileges of this floor, and it was declared adopted. The question then recurred on the adoption of the rule as amended on motion of Mr. Rumsey, by adding at the end of subdivision 7 the words, "by name on a special vote," and it was declared to be adopted. Mr. SILVESTER offered the following amendment, add as subdivision 9 of Rule 33, the following: "Ladies; but the privilege of ladies to such admission to cease whenever the sofas upon the floor are filled." The question was put, on the amendment of Mr. Silvester, and it was declared to be lost. The question was then put on the adoption of rule 33, as amended, and it was declared adopted. The President announced the reception of the following communication from the Comptroller: STATE OF NEW YORK, COMPTROLLER'S OFFICE, Albany, June 12, 1867. Hon. WILLIAM A. WHEELER, President of the Constitutional Convention. SIR: I have the honor to acknowledge the receipt of a Resolution of the Convention, adopted on the 11th inst., addressed to the Commissioners of the Canal Fund, and to state in reply, that it will be submitted for their consideration at the earliest day on which the Board can be convened. Very respectfully yours, THOMAS HILLHOUSE, Comptroller. Which was ordered to lie on the table and be printed. Mr. WEED-I ask for an indefinite leave of absence for Mr. Pierrepont. At his request I state as as a reason that he was engaged as counsel in the Surratt trial in Washington prior to his nomination to this Convention. He supposed that the trial would take place prior to the holding of the Convention, but it was adjourned until now. No objection being offered the leave of absence was granted. 57 Mr. M. I. TOWNSEND moved that the Convention do now adjourn. Which was lost. Mr. BERGEN moved that the Convention take a recess until four o'clock, which was lost. Mr. POND-It seems to me that by unanimous consent the balance of this report may be adopted. The committee were unanimous on every part of it except that which refers to the previous question. Mr. FOLGER-I object. The SECRETARY then proceeded to read rules 34 and 35, and there being no objection thereto they were adopted. The SECRETARY then proceeded to read rule 36. Mr. MORRIS offered the following amendment: Substitute for the words "one-fifth" the word "thirty." Mr. FIELD moved to amend the amendment by substituting in place of the word "thirty" the word "fifteen." Which was carried. The question then recurred on the adoption of Rule 36 as amended and it was declared adopted. The SECRETARY then proceeded to read rule 37. Mr. FIELD moved to amend by striking out the words " within two days," and inserting in lieu thereof the words "next day." Mr. WEED-I have no objection to the amendment offered by the gentleman from Orleans, [Mr. Field], as I should like to have the journal put on our files on the second day, but if we get them on in six days under this rule it will be more promptly than I have ever known it to be done. The question was then put on the amendment of Mr. Field, and it was declared to be adopted. The question then recurred on the adoption of Rule 37 as amended, and it was declared adopted. The SECRETARY then proceeded to read rule 38, and there being no objection it was declared adopted. The SECRETARY then proceeded to read rule 39. Mr. CONGER-I would like to ask the chairman of the Committee on Rules whether he has examined the question, how far, under the law constituting this convention, we are authorized to pass any such resolution as this, or adopt any such rule. Mr. SHERMAN-The language of the law as I remember it, is that the Comptroller shall furnish to the convention such file-boards, stationery and other like articles as are furnished for the use of the legislature. Among other articles furnished for the use of the legislature are stationery for the use of officers. The statute of 1853 provides that each officer shall have stationery furnished him. Mr. CONGER-I apprehend that the chairman of the committee is mistaken in the meaning of the law, which discriminates between stationery that may be allowed to the members to the extent of thirty dollars, and the furnishing of such other matter as is customary for the use of the House of Assembly and its officers. The rule would admit of the confusion of the two allowances, and for the purpose, of testing the sense of the Convention, I move that it be stricken out. 8 Mr. MERRITT It strikes me that it would be a very proper subject for a resolution. The power can be exercised but once, and the Secretary who issues the order for stationery would find himself embarrassed except by the positive instructions of the Convention. I think, therefore, it should be a matter of resolution instead of being incorporated in the rules. Mr. ALVORD — I call the attention of the gentleman from Oneida [Mr. Sherman] and the Convention to the third section of the law which authorizes our assembling. They will find it is confined to members thereof, and it is very doubtful in my mind whether, either on the passage of the resolution, or by a rule adopted here, the Comptroller would feel himself bound to give sta. tionery to any other persons than members. Mr. SHERMAN -As the matter will be referred to the Comptroller for him to decide, it is perhaps a subject which can be as well acted upon by resolution as by this rule. I have no objection to strike out the Rule 39, if it is desired. The question was then put, on the motion to strike out Rule 39, and it was declared carried. Mr. T. W. DWIGHT-I move to fill the blank occasioned by the striking out of Rule 39 with the words " when a blank is to be filled and different sums or times shall be proposed, the question shall first be taken on the highest sum or longest time," which is Rule 39 of the Assembly, and is of course necessary in disputed cases to get at the exact will of the body. Mr. FOLGER-That is already parliamentary law, and it raises a point which has occurred to me, whether these rules are to be our sole rules of order or whether we may refer back to what may be called the common law of parliamentary bodies. The rule proposed by the gentleman is already a part of the common law which governs every parliamentary body without written rules and therefore it is unnecessary unless some such rule is to prevail as this that these rules now written are to be the sole rules for our government. I might say that a good part of these rules is the common law of parliamentary bodies, such as "the Speaker shall arise and address the Chair before he shall be allowed to address the Convention." Unless we are to be tied strictly to the rules and not allowed to go abroad in any emergency to consult the common law of parliamentary bodies, there is no necessity for the amendment offered by the gentleman [Mr. T. W. Dwight.] Mr. T. W. DWIGHT -I am aware that a number of our rules are already a part of parliamentary law; but there is an advantage in having those rules directly before us in the printed manual, so that they can be easily referred to. This rule has already been failed to be acted upon during our proceedings to-day, which shows that the existence of the rule had escaped the attention of members, when the shortest time was put to vote rather than the longest. The question was put on the motion of Mr. Dwight, to insert the rule offered by him as Rule 39, and it was declared adopted. The Secretary, then proceeded to read Rule 40. Mr. M. H. LAWRENCE-Offered the following amendment: Strike out the words "elected to the Conven 58 tion" and insert in lieu thereof "present and voting". The question was put and the amendment was declared to be lost. Mr. LAPHAM-Offered the following amendment to Rule 40: After the word "rescinded" in the second line, insert the words " or additional rule, or rules added " so that the rule will read "no standing rule of the Convention shall be suspended, amended or rescinded, or additional rule or rules added." Mr. LAPHAM- I offer this Mr. Chairman, for a double purpose. In the first place there is an implication, as has been suggested, in the adoption of these rules that they are to be the sole rules for the government of this body. If so it is important that power to add to the rules should be expressly reserved. We have already stricken out the rules regulating the previous question and it will be impossible to adopt that rule in any emergency, upon our construction of this rule, unless we have this right expressly reserved. The question was then put upon the amendment and it was declared adopted. Mr. YEEDER-I offer the following amendment: After the word "any," in the third line, insert the words " such suspension, addition," so that as it will require a majority of the members of the house to amend or repeal a rule; it shall also require a majority of the members of the house to enact a new rule. The question was then put upon the amendment, and it was declared to be adopted. Mr. FIELD offered the following amendment to rule 40: After the words "vote of," in the fourth line, insert the words "two-thirds of the metnbers present or that of.".Mr. FIELD-The object of that is this, in case of a slim house, it will be almost impossible to get a vote of one-half of the whole Convention. The question being put upon the amendment, it was declared adopted. Mr. LIVINGSTON offered the following amendment to rule 40: after the word " repeal," in line 3, insert the words, "or addition." Which was lost. Mr. ROGERS moved that the Convention adjourn. Which was lost. Mr. COGER-It seems to me, that one day's notice is too short a space of time to throw the Convention back into a reconsideration of the rules and I would move that " one day " be stricken out and " three days" be inserted, in the second line. The question being put upon the amendment, it was declared lost. "No further objection being made, Rule 40 as amended, was declared adopted. The SECRETARY then proceeded to read rule 41. No objection being made thereto, it was declared adopted. The SECRETARY then proceeded to read rule 42. Mr. SILVESTER offered the following amendment: A4dd at the end of rile 42 the words, "And to / four copies of each of which each member shall be entitled." Mr. SILVESTER-This rule provides for the printing of 800 copies of reports, &c., and rule 44 provides for furnishing the members with only one copy of each. The amendment I propose, is that each member shall have four copies. The question was put upon the amendment and it was declared to be lost. No further objection being made to rule 42, it was declared adopted. The SECRETARY then proceeded to read rules 43,44 and 45, and no objections being made thereto, they were declared to be adopted. The SECRETARY then proceeded to read rule 46. Mr. McDONALD offered the following amendment: After the word " Convention " in the fourth line, insert the words "without any compensation for such services, or claim for the same, other than that provided for by chap. 194 of the Laws of 1867." Mr. McDONALD-I offer that simply to express the opinion of this Convention as to any future claim that might be made for services here, or for anything that might be voted by a future Legislature. Not that I have any idea that the present assistant would make any such claim, but I simply intend to express the feeling of this Convention, and to show that this Convention intends to conduct its proceedings strictly under the law by which it was constituted. Mr. ROGERS moved that the Convention adjourn. Which was lost. The question being then put upon the amendment of Mr. McDonald, it was declared to be adopted. Mr. FIELD-I move to amend Rule 46, by striking out the words "assistant sergeant-at. arms " and insert the word "Librarian." I make this motion from the fact that the post office having been moved into the library, the librarian can discharge these duties with little inconvenience. The question being put on the amendment, it was declared to be lost. There being no further objection to Rule 46, it was declared adopted. Mr. SHERMAN —One portion of the report of the Committee on Rules has been passed over without action; it is from the 19th to the 22nd subdivision of the 15th Rule, providing for the appointment of four standing Committees. It was accidentally omitted in the printing but it will be found in document No. 2. The SECRETARY proceeded to read the 19th, 20th, 21st and 22nd subdivision of Rule 15. Mr. HALE moved to postpone the consideration of this portion of the report, until the Convention shall have acted upon the report of the Committee of sixteen, Which was carried. Mr. HOMER A. NELSON, a delegate, appeared in the Convention, was administered the Constitutional oath of office by the President, and took his seat. On motion of Mr. VAN CAMPEN the Convention adjourned. 59 THURSDAY, June 13, 1867. The Convention met pursuant to adjournment. Prayer was offered by Rev. W. H. ALDEN. The Journal of yesterday was read by the Secretary. Mr. MORRIS-I may not have heard correctly, but it seems to me that the secretary, in reading the correction of Rule 36, mentioned that the words "one-fifth" should be expunged and the number "fifteen" inserted instead. My understanding of the amendment was, that the word "fifty" should appear instead of " one-fifth." The PRESIDENT-The Clerk has it as stated. Mr. A. LAWRENCE-In the journal as just read one or two amendments appear as having been offered by Mr. A. Lawrence. They were offered by Mr. M. H. Lawrence. There was a similar error yesterday-the amendment appeared as having been offered by Mr. A. Lawrence instead of Mr. M. H. Lawrence. I merely call the attention of the Secretary to it. Mr. PRESIDENT-It was an error of the Secretary in regard to the names. The journal will be corrected in that respect, there being no objection. Mr. AXTELL-I rise to a question of privilege. I find in the report of the debate of yesterday, published in the Argus and Journal of this city, the following statement-reporting the remarks I made upon the debate of the previous question. The PRESIDENT-The question now pending is one of the correction of the Journal. Mr. BICKFORD-As I understood the reading of the journal it is not stated that Rule 45 had been adoptedThe PRESIDENT-The Chair is informed it is so stated. There being no further correction of the journal, it was declared approved. Mr. AXTELL-I am made to say in the debate of yesterday, in the report of the Argus, "I know that the British House of Commons and Parliament have been cited as a body in which the previous question is used for the suppression of debate, but the British House of Commons is not a model so far as the mode of conducting its debates is concerned." What I did say was this, "I know that the House of Commons of the British Parliament has been cited as a body in which the previous question is not used for the suppression of debate, but the British House of Commons is not a model so far as the mode of suppressing debate is concerned." The PRESIDENT-The chair does not regard the question raised, to be a question of privilege. Mr. ALVORD-I beg leave to rise to a question of privilege. I sir, believe, so far as regards mere questions of privilege, they should be very seldom, if ever used, but in this case it is a question I desire to right myself upon, where I committed unintentionally a wrong. Yesterdayinthe course of debate, without any very great choice of language, I used the words, in reference to my friend from Oneida [Mr. Shermsn], "I am not aware that the statement last made by the gentleman is true," I should have used the words "'is correct." I so intended to be understood: I did not intend to impute to the gentleman from Oneida any departure from the truth in the ordinary acceptation of the term. I hope the gentleman will receive this apology. Mr. SHERMAN-I did not suppose the gentleman from Onondaga meant anything of the kind; and, therefore, I took no notice of it at the time. I am much obliged to him for his correction. Mr. HARRIS-I move that the Convention take from the table the report of the committee of sixteen. Mr. SHERMAN-There is a little item in the report of the Committee on Rules which has not yet been acted upon. I trust that will be disposed of first. It is really the proper business in order, being the unfinished business of the Committee on Rules of yesterday. The PRESIDENT-The Chair understood the motion was to postpone until the report of the committee of sixteen should be acted upon. The question was then put upon the motion of Mr. Harris to take up the report of the committee of sixteen, and it was declared to be carried. The SECRETARY then proceeded to read the report (as already printed.) Mr. FIELD-I rise to a question of privilege. I wish to inquire whether rule 33 is enforced. I think there are several persons here, not privileged to the floor under this rule. The PRESIDENT-The Chair enjoins on the proper officer to enforce the rule. The SECRETARY then proceeded to read paragraph 1. No amendment being offered, the Secretary proceeded to read paragraph 2. Mr. RATHBUN-I offer the following amendment: The object is to consolidate Nos. 2 and 3, and refer the whole to one Committee. The SECRETARY then proceeded to read the amendment as follows: "strike out subdivision 3, and insert at the end of subdivision 2 the words "and on the powers and duties thereof, except as to matters otherwise referred." Mr. HARRIS-I hope that amendment will not be adopted. It was the unanimous opinion of the committee of sixteen, that these two propositions contained matters enough for the labors of two committees, one on the constitution of the Legislature and the other on its powers and duties. Mr. RATHBUN-I find, sir, in the 7th section an additional provision for committees embracing a portion of the powers of the Legislature, and which affords very large scope for a committee upon that branch of the case. This subject is embraced in these two subdivisions. One is simply upon the Legislature, embracing its organization and the number, apportionment, election, tenure of office and the compensation of its members. This subdivision would require but very little consideration, I apprehend. And then another subdivision is upon the powers and duties of the Legislature, except as otherwise referred, and that is to be directed to other commlittees. Now, sir, it looks tome very much as if there were hardly subjects enough or supposed to be hardly enough within the Constitution that is to be reviewed and revised, to apportion it in such a manner as toafford places for all the gentlemen of the Convention upon Committees. I believe in making these gentlemen who are on 60 these Committees work, I believe in giving to all of these Committees who are appointed something to do-and in revising a subject referred to it, it will be readily perceived that the entire subject should be passed upon by one committee, so as to make it consistent with itself; and when it comes before this body it comes as a-system in itself, so far as that committee is concerned. The committee under the 7th sub-division will be a committee that has very much to do with the powers and duties of the Legislature, and very much beyond what is called for to be done under these two sub-divisions here. I, therefore, ask that that amendment be considered, and I ask the gentlemen of the Convention to see whether there is anything here that requires a division of such a subject and the reference of it to two independent committees Now, sir, I hope there is no gentleman here that is desirous of being upon a committee unless he finds it is necessary to be placed there with a view to render service that will be of value to this Convention. I have no desire myself to occupy a place upon a committee of any kind and I should be very glad to have this work so condensed as to give to gentlemen who are ambitious for places of that kind, all the work they want to do, provided they will do it expeditiously, and do it as it ought to be done. Mr. HALE -I wish simply to say that I think the gentleman from Cayuga [Mr. Rathbun] is very much mistaken in his idea that there is nothing for Committee No. 2 to do. Some very important questions will come before that committee as proposed to be constituted by the committee of sixteen-some questions I think quite as weighty, and which will require quite as much attention and care as any that will come before any committee. The question is of the organization, the number, apportionment, election, tenure of office, and compensation of its members. If the gentleman from Cayuga is desirous of being put upon a committee where there will be nothing to do, I will recommend him to select some other committee than No. 2 on this list. The question was then put upon the amendment, and it was declared to be lost. The SECRETARY then proceeded to read the 3d paragraph. There being no amendment offered the SECRETARY proceeded to read the 4th paragraph. Mr. TAPPEN-I have the honor to offer the following as a substitute for paragraph 4: strike out the fourth sub-division of the report, and insert in lieu thereof the words: '; On the elective franchise and the qualifications to vote and hold office." With some regard to the land-marks of the past, and guided as I am by the proceedings of the Convention of 1846 on a subject of this kind, I find by referring to their former proceeding that they used that exact language. It seems to me it is the proper phraseology to be embodied in a report, of this character, fixing the powers and the mode of business of this house. The words "right of suffrage" have no limitation and no definite or fixed meaning, because the right of suffrage is without restriction. It is an inalienable and inborn right, to be possessed by all, without regard to race, age, sex or color, while the elective franchise is a qualification recognized by the people in their sovereign capacity, and conferred by their bodies in convention. I think this ig the proper language to be used in connection with this subject at this time. The question being put upon the amendment, it was declared to be lost. The SECRETARY proceeded to read the 5th paragraph. No amendment being offered, the Secretary proceeded to read the 6th paragraph. Mr. TUCKER offered the following amendment, "strike out the words Secretary of State, Comptroller, Treasurer, Attorney.General and State Engineer and Surveyor," and insert in lieu thereof the words " State officers and the heads of State departments." Mr. FOLGER —I would suggest to the honorable gentleman from Now York that his amendment in including the words "State officers" comprehends too much, as it would interfere, it seems to me, with the duties of the committee on judiciary, which will consider the Court of Appeals, who are State officers, and the Committee on State Prisons, which will consider the duties of the Inspectors of State Prisons, who are also State officers, and also the Canal Commissioners, who are State officers, so that this one committee would pretty nearly engross all the committees proposed by this report. Mr. TUCKER-With the permission of the Convention then, I would change my amendment so as to read "State officers and heads of State executive departments." Mr. WEED-I would suggest to the gentleman that he add at the end, "except as otherwise herein referred," which will except these special references suggested by the gentleman from Ontario [Mr. Folger.] The SECRETARY then proceeded to read the amendment as follows:" On the State officers and heads of State executive departments, except as otherwise herein referred." Mr. POND-I would inquire what difference it will make in this subdivision from what it now reads. If it is merely a question to strike out specifications and introduce generalities, I should prefer to leave it as it is now. Mr. TUCKER-I will state that there are other State departments, most of which have been erected since the present Constitution came into effect in 1847-such as the Board of Public Instruction and Banking. I suppose it would be proper that this committee should have the consideration of these special departments. Mr. HARRIS-A little more attention on the part of gentleman from New York, would have shown him that all these departments are provided for in this Committee. The Committee now under consideration provides for the five officers generally known as the State officers. Then the committee on the management and superintendence of the canals will cover the case of the Canal Commissioners. The Committee on State Prisons will cover the State Prison Inspectors. The Committee on Banking and Insurance will cover the Commissioners of those departments, and the Committee on Education will cover the Superintendent of Public Instruction, and so all the 61 officers that are recognized as State officers, whether they have been created since the Constitution of 1846 was adopted, or after, are provided for in these committees, but they are distributed among the several committees according to their subjects. Mr. TUCKER-After the explanation of the Chairman of the Committee, [Mr. Harris], and with the understanding that the Committee No. 13 will include in its labors the consideration of the appointment or election of the heads of the banking and insurance department, I will withdraw my amendment. The SECRETARY proceeded to read paragraphs 7 and 8. No amendment being offered, the Secretary proceeded to read paragraph 9. Mr. HATCH-I offer the following amendment: to insert after the word "management," in the second line, the word "improvement." My object in doing that, is to refer the duties of the improvement of the canals to Committee No. 10. It seems to me that is the proper place for it, and when that committee No. 10 is under consideration I shall move then an amendment so that it will read "on the superintendence and management, and improvement of the canals." Mr. BELL-In examining this subdivision, I find it includes a very large amount of labor for a single committee. I think the progress of this Convention will be very much facilitated, and the work we have in hand will be sooner completed, if we should divide the labor as far as it can be done, so as to preserve distinct and independent subjects, and with that view I propose to divide the subdivision No. 9 as follows: " No. 9-On the finances of the State so far as the same relate to the Canals, the Public Debt and the Trust Fund." My observation and experience are that the subject of canals is a very large one6 and that the finances of the canals, the expenditures and revenues will occupy the attention and the time of the best minds in our Convention, and they ought not, therefore, to be coupled with expenditures and other revenues, including taxation. Then I would provide for another committee which may be called No. 10, if you please, "on taxation, the revenues and expenditures of the State other than canals, and salt springs, and the restrictions on the powers of the Legislature in respect thereto." The PRESIDENT —The Chair would suggest to the gentleman whether that had not better be offered as a separate proposition. The Chair thinks it is hardly germain to the proposition of the gentleman from Erie [Mr. Hatch]. Mr. BELL-I will then, if the Chair is of that opinion, withdraw it now until the other proposition is disposed of. Mr. HITCHMAN-I move to amend by striking out a portion of the sixth subdivision, so it will read: "On canals, their care and management." Mr. HATCH-Mr. President, is that amendment germain to my amendment? The PRESIDENT-The Chair thinks it is. Mr. BELL-It occurs to me that the last amendment is provided for in the next subdivision, No. 10, and I would call the attention of the gentleman from New York [Mr. Hitchmal], to that subdivision. Mr. HITCHMAN-It seems, Mr. Chairman, that I have overlooked the matter contained in the 10th sub-division, and therefore, with the permission of the Convention, I will ask to withdraw my amendment. Mr. FOLGER offered the following amendment: " Strike out all of sub-division 9 relating to the canals, and strike out No. 10, and insert in place of No. 10, as follows: '10. On canals."' Mr. FOLGER-It seems to me, from reading this report, there should be but a single committee upon the subject of canals of the State, which committee should have charge, not only of the question of superintendence, management and improvement of the canals, but also the question of the finances as growing out of that subject; which, of course, would include the expenditures upon it, and the means of raising money for that expenditure, and which would include the revenue from them, and the proper method of distributing or disposing of that revenue for the general bene: fit of this State, if the revenue was in excess of the expenditure. Such, it seems to me, has been the uniform course, not only of our Constitution, but of our legislation, that the canals include everything in relation to them, not only their management, but the care of them, the superintendence and improvement, and everything that may grow out of the idea of construction, and also all which may grow out of the idea of finances relating to them, either by revenue or expenditure upon them. The general subject of the finances of the State is, it seems to me, a' subject in itself, What should be the basis of taxation? what should be the object of taxation? and in what manner, and to what ends should the general revenue derived by the State be directed? how it should be disposed of, and where it should be paid. It appears to me that the subject of the canals, as important a subject as the citizens of this State can contemplate or be concerned in, should stand simple and alone, not only in their management, but in everything which may naturally grow out of them, and the subject of finances, in which is included in my mind the taxation, the amount of it, the proper object of taxation, and the proper subject of taxation, should be referred to one committee to deal with that question alone, to be denominated "a Committee on the finances of the State," as would be the balance of section 9, if these phrases in relation to the canals had been stricken out, and that the other should be a Committee upon canals, and everything which may naturally ramify from the general subject of canals. Mr. BELL-So far as I have been able to understand the gentleman from Ontario [Mr. Folger], his views will be expressed with tolerable clearness by the amendments I had the honor to offer, with this exception: He seems to contemplate that the whole subject of canals, their revenues and expenditures, should be referred to the same committee. It had occurred to me that a more proper distribution of the labors included therein would be a division of that subject, and referring it to two distinct committees, one on the management, care and superintendence of the canals, which is a very great subject in itself-the other, upon the revenues arising from the canals, embracing everything that relates to them-the 62 tolls and the expenditures. It has been wisely Resolved, That the privileges of the floor be exthought that the management and the revenues tended to the Hon. Beman Brockway, Canal Aparising from the canals should be separate, and praiser, for this day. should be considered distinctly by separated corn- The question was put on the resolution of Mr. mittees. They are independent and distinct Field and it was declared adopted. propositions. I would call for the reading of my Mr. SHERMAN-I rise to a point of order amendments that the gentleman may see their in reference to the resolution. The point is, that meaning. the rule provides how different persons may be The PRESIDENT-The Chair is of the opihion admitted to the privileges of the floor and that that the amendment should be germain to that they cannot be admitted otherwise, without a offered by the gentleman from Erie [Mr. Hatch,] suspension or alteration of the rules. They canand the motion to amend overrides that of the not, therefore, be admitted by special resolution. motion to strike out, and the Convention, by dis- The PRESIDENT - The point of order is well posing of the amendment of the gentleman from taken. Erie, would put itself in a proper position to re- The President then announced the pending ceive the motion from the gentleman from Onta- question to be the amendment offered by Mr, rio [Mr. Folger]. The Chair would further sug- Hatch to the 9th paragraph of the report of the gest that it hardly thinks the substitute of the Committee of Sixteen. gentleman from Ontario germain to the amend- Mr. BELL-Allow me to suggest to the gentlement of the gentleman from Erie. man from Erie [Mr. Hatch], that his amendment Mr. HATCH-It seems to me, sir, that the care, is not properly to be considered with the sub-dimanagement and improvement of these canals are vision under consideration. Is it not germain to subjects that are necessarily connected. The ques- sub-division No. 10? tion of the enlargement of the Erie canal is to be Mr. HATCH-I propose, when we come to suba great question before this Convention, and division 10, to move to insert the word "improveanother question is whether there is moral ability ment." enough in the administration of this State to take Mr. BELL-And also in sub-division 9? care of the canals. Every one knows that the Mr. HATCH-In subdivision 9, to make it Western commerce sustains the Erie canal-that complete, and in subdivision 10. the local traffic of this State, and the local traffic Mr. BELL-I misunderstood the gentleman of the Erie canal and the lateral canals, are not from Erie [Mr. Hatch]. sufficient even to sustain and make the repairs Mr. HATCH-I will read the two paragraphs upon all these canals. The question is to come as they will read as amended: "On the finances before this Convention-how this western com- of the State, the canals, except their care, manmerce is to be preserved. We cannot retain that agement and improvement, the public debt, revecommerce except we have larger and cheaper nues, expenditures and taxation, and restrictions facilities. And then again, sir, if we do not adopt on the powers of the Legislature in respect some measure to save our canal system from the thereto." That is number 9. Then number 10 extravagance and corruption which has been in it, will read thus: " On the superintendence, maninstead of taking one-third of the revenues of the agement and improvement of the canals, and the Erie Canal to sustain itself and the lateral canals, proper officers to be charged therewith, and the in the end they will take the whole rev- mode of their election or appointment." enues of the Erie Canal. I will only add that Mr. BELL- I would ask the gentleman from our whole canal system is threatened from with- Erie [Mr. Hatch], if he will not withdraw his out by new and rival routes and improved railway amendment until the amendment I offered is distransportation. It is threatened from within by posed of. In case my amendment meets with the extravagance and corruption in its management. approbation of the Convention his would be enTherefore, -sir, the question of the management tirely unnecessary. and the care of the canals is necessarily con- Mr. HATCH-In the view which I take of it, nected with the improvement of the canals, and it is important that my amendment should be conthese two subjects belong to one committee. I sidered, as it simplifies the whole question. hope the Convention will adopt my motion to Mr. HARRIS-I hope that the amendment of insert "improvement" for the purposes that I the gentleman from Erie [Mr. Hatch], will not have mentioned. prevail. This subject was a matter of very conMr. FIELD —Mr. President, I rise to a question siderable deliberation on the part of the Commitof privilege, and under that I desire to offer a tee of Sixteen. It was the most difficult question resolution. that the committee had to consider-the question The PRESIDENT-The gentleman will state as to where the subject of the enlargement of the his question of privilege. canals should go. It was finally determined by Mr. FIELD-It is in reference to the enforcing that committee, and I think I may say unaniof rule 33, and the admission of privileged per- mously, that this question of the enlargement of sons to the floor. I offer the resolution to admit a the canal was rather a question of finance, and that gentleman to the floor of to Convention this day. the whole question as to the finances of the State, The PRESIDENT-The Chair hopes that the including the revenues from the canals, and thl gentleman from Orleans [Mr. Fieldl. will not be provision that might be made for the enlargemecnt too strenuous in referenc6 to the rule until the rules of the canal, should go to a single committee. have been printed. That was the deliberate conviction of the CornThe Secretary read the resolution of Mr. Field, mittee of Sixteen, and I hope that their report as follows: may be sustained. 63 Mr. LEE-I have always been accustomed to State? It is well known that the canal interest defer very greatly to the opinion of the eminent is a very large interest, and the question before the chairman of the Committee of Sixteen, and espe- Convention of the improvement and enlargement cially would I defer, sustained as he is by all his of the canals is an important financial question. colleagues; yet, sir, it is not strange, viewing How could the Committee on Finance give this subject from different standpoints of view, proper and comprehensive recommendations in that we should differ in opinion as to the propriety regard to the expenditures and taxation of the of the amendment of the gentleman from Erie State, without they had in their purview the [Mr. Hatch]. I cannot see, myself, in what way whole financial interests of the State? It seems to the amendment, if adopted, is to prejudice this me, therefore, that the division made by the question, and it does seem to me, sir, however committee could not be improved. I shall be it may be considered by the committee having in compelled to vote against this amendment, and all charge the question of finances, it would be an others that are made to this section. entirely proper inquiry, and appropriate and very Mr. DUGANNE-As I regard this in the light desirable that the amendment of the gentleman somewhat of a test question, and one which will from Erie [Mr. Hatch], should be sustained by probably foreshadow the action of this Convention this Convention. upon very important interests of the State, I call Mr. FULLER-I would like to enquire if the for the ayes and noes upon the amendment of the amendment of the gentleman from Erie [Mr. gentleman from Erie [Mr. Hatch.] Hatch], is adopted, it would preclude the adoption A sufficient number seconding the call for the of the amendment offered by the gentleman from ayes and noes they were ordered. Ontario [Mr. Folger.] Mr. TILDlN-It was the judgment of the The PRESIDENT - A further amendment may Committee that whoever should be charged with be offered. the duty of considering what should be done Mr. FULLER - That amendment would strike with respect to the improvement of the Erie canal, out the amendment now proposed to be inserted. would find all consideration of that subject futile, The PRESIDENT-The Chair rules that the unless there could be considered also where the paragraph may be perfected as the Convention ways and means were to be obtained with which chooses, and then stricken out entirely, the effort that enlargement was to be made. Equally futile being first to perfect it. would it be to attempt to regulate by Constitutional Mr. FULLER-I hope that the amendmentof the provision the finances of the State, if that subject gentleman from Erie [Mr. Hatch,] wiil prevail. that includes the chief part of its revenues, and With all due deference to the chairman of the the chief part of its expenditures, is to be excluded Committee of Sixteen, it seems to me'that the pro- from the consideration of that Committee. There position in their report is to send the question of is a unity on this subject, wholly incapable of disthe enlargement of the canals away from home. severance, without confusion and chaos in all your It is not merely a question of finance. It is the action upon the entire question. Sir, I apprehend enlargement and improvement of the canals, al- that the effort to make any division of this subthough the subject of finance is involved in the ject may arise from failing to consider how question. But there are other great interests of different is our situation and method of action on the State involved in it also. It is the most im- the subject from that of the Legislature. The portant subject I apprehend to come up before Legislature attempts to determine with some this body. It is one that entitles it to a separate degree of detail what particular improvements committee who may consider it in all its bearings, shall be made in respect to the public works. in all its aspects, in its financial aspects among It, therefore, has an organization adapted to that others, and not in that aspect exclusively. I shall purpose. This Convention in framing the fundatherefore vote for the amendment of the gentle- mental law of the State, undertakes to do nothing man from Erie [Mr. Hatch], and if that amend- of that kind. It will simply make a provision in ment is adopted, I then hope and trust that the Constitution whereby these objects can be the proposition of the gentleman from Ontario carried out. It will make financial provisions ap[Mr. Folger], will be brought forward and that it plicable to this subject matter. The difference in will be adopted and supersede the whole. I think its duty prescribes a difference in the mode of the subject of the enlargement ot the canals is reference and consideration. Why, sir, how is it one which is entitled to a separate committee by possible to separate income and expenditure-to itself. separate the subject of the revenues of the State Mr. OPDYKE-I hope the amendment will not and its means of applying them to this purpose? prevail. I think the arrangement made by the I confess it seems to me that the Convention will inCommittee of Sixteen in this division in regard to volve itself in inextricable and endless confusion, the canals is altogether proper and judicious. unless the entire subject of the ways and means, The Committee on Finance will be expected to and the subjects to which those ways and means present to this Convention recommendations for are to be applied, are united in the consideration the action of the Convention in respect to the of one committee, and treated as one entire and in finances of the State, with regard to the debt of divisible subject. If, sir, I we're to look back the State, its expenditures, and, in fact, in refer- through the constitutional action and legislative ence to every aspect of the question. I would action of the last twenty years at our municilike to enquire how the Committee could be ex- palities, and inquire what it is that has made pected to make a reccommendation which would them, as is the case in the city of New York, inm be of value, unless they had within their purview stead of being a government, simply an organized all the subjects referring to the finances of the chaos, if I may use such an expression, I should 64 say it is because often in our Legislature we have attempted to dissever the disbursing power from the power which provides the ways and means. It is fundamental in all human powers, that with the power which provides the ways and means should exist the power which makes the expenditures. Sir, you cannot organize the family on any other basis. You cannot organize any of these great corporate bodies that act so important a part in our public affairs on any other basis; and the attempt to organize a government on that basis, to make those officers independent powers in the State will result in what the people of this State now experience-a confusion of expenditure, and a confusion and redundance of taxation. Sir, there must be unity, and there must be supremacy on the part of those who provide the ways and means, and those who expend them. This subject is intrinsically and necessarily financial. I do not think, therefore, that it is possible to make any such disseverance without the greatest possible mischief in the deliberations of this Convention. Mr. FOLGER-With deference to the honorable gentleman from New York [Mr. Tilden] who has just taken his seat, I conceive that his argument is based upon three fallacies. In the first place, one would suppose, from his remarks, that this was a body which was dealing with details instead of general principles. What we have to do is to lay foundations, and not to build superstructures. We deal with general principles. What shall be, for instance, the general method in which the taxation of this State shall be managed? To what general objects shall it be applied and from what general sources shall it be derived? That is a general principle upon which the Committee on Finance are to use their powers, deliberate and report their results. So with the Committee on Canals. They are to inquire into the whole vast subject of the canal system of this State. They are to discover and report its revenues, disclose its expenditures, and show the necessities, not only the necessities of this State, but the necessities of the far West, which is dependent, to some extent, upon this State for commercial facilities. These two committees are to present to this body the results of these general inquiries, and it is for this body to make an adjustment and arrangement of the whole subject, so that the report of one committee may be made to concur with the report of the other committee. If the Convention shall decide upon a system of enlargement and improvement, they may look to the report of the Finance Committee to get light upon the question of where the means are coming from to make the enlargement, if means are needed outside of the canal revenues, which I think will be found to be doubtful. So that we are the arbiters and judges between the two committees. We are to be called upon to settle between con. flicting reports, if they are to be conflicting, in reference to the question of finance and the taxation of the State, and the need of increased canal facilities. Thus, I say, that upon the subject of the canal system and the revenues to be derived from the canals and the expenditures to be made for it, the argument of the gentleman includes two fallacies. One is, that the Convention is to settle details of finance and the other is, that the Convention is to adopt whatever the committees may report, without attempting to adjust differences in the reports. Another fallacy is, that the report of the Committee of Sixteen already provides for what the gentleman says, cannot be done-that is, separating a general subject. What is the subject of the care and management of the canals, but an inquiry of the cost and management - an inquiry as to what means are at the disposition of the Legislature, or to be derived by taxation for their care and management. It is an inquiry which involves the ascertaining of what are those means, what the canals yield, what are the necessities for their improvement, how much justice and good faith, to the people of this State and to the people of other States, require that we should raise by direct taxation, if you choose to use that word. And another inquiry after that, is to ascertain how great shall be the body of officers -how numerous the subordinate officials who shall be scattered along the canal to manage it. Further than that, is the enquiry in reference to the comparative costs of different systems of management-whether it shall be done by the contract system or whether it shall be done under the superintendent system, or whether we shall have at the Capital one supreme head over the canals who shall be responsible for the conduct of every subordinate upon it and accountable for all detail. If the idea of the gentleman be correct that any question involving the raising of money and its expenditure, even upon the canals, cannot be separated from the idea of finances and taxation, then the report of the Committee is faulty in that respect. Subdivision No. 10 should come out entirely, for every body knows, who is at all familiar with the legislation of this State upon the subject of the canals, that the care and management of them is emphatically a question of the expenditure of money; a question of finance; a question of taxation; a question of revenue. When you have referred to one Committee, No. 10; the question of the superintendance and management of the canals, you have immediately put in their charge a subject which will require them to report to this Convention not only what shall be the system of management and who shall have the care and management of the canals, but to consider and report in connection therewith from whence shall come the means for that care and management; whether from the revenues of the canal itself or from the general fund of the State. So that I say, the argument of the gentleman, and I say it with great respect, is built upon three fallacies, as I have already stated, and not the least is that the subject of the canals can be considered without also considering the questions of finance and taxation. The first inquiry is, what do they yield? Do they yield a surplus? If so, what shall be done with that surplus? If they no not yield a surplus, then is the necessity for their maintenance or enlargement so paramount and preponderating as to call upon this State to direct that its Legislature shall provide means for the enlargement, by taxation or otherwise? How shall that debt be created? How shall that money be raised? When shall the debt created be paid, &c., &c? All these details grow immediately out of the first step toward a consid I 65 eration of this subject of the canals; and any committee which is charged with the consideration of the question of their care and management (without the "improvement," as suggested by the gentleman from Erie [Mr. Hatch]-striking out even the word improvement), as I have endeavored to show, and I think I have shown will be required to make financial consideration, and investigation into the finances of this State and its resources. Mr. MURPHY-The gentleman from Ontario [Mr. Folger] in stating that the gentleman from New York [Mr. Tilden] has fallen into fallacies, appears to me has fallen into one great error himself. He argues his case upon the idea that the question of the enlargement of the canals can be considered by the committee now under consideration. Now, sir, I suppose it to be perfectly competent for the committee that shall be appointed under this resolution to consider that question in all its bearings upon the interests of the people of this State, otherwise than as a financial question. I hope if this paragraph shall be adopted, the committee will be so constituted that the great interests which have been referred to by him and by other gentlemen, will be considered by this committee as well as the financialquestion involved. Now, I differ from the honWable gentleman materially, in regard to the province of the second committee proposed here and which we must consider. The province of that committee is to consider the management and care of the canals. It has reference particularly to the administration of the canals-whether, as he himself has said, we shall continue the contract system, or some other system-whether it shall be managed by elected officers or appointed officers, or how otherwise. These are the questions which are now agitating the public mind, and which are the subject of legislative consideration, and they demand from this body special attention independent of the question of enlargement, or the question of the finances of the canals. True it is, that there can be no administration of the canals without an expenditure of money. The keeping of them in repair will necessarily require the expenditure of money; but that is only incidental-natural. We all understand that the canals cannot be carried on without appropriations -without means, and that these appropriations and means are for the most part ascertainable from year to year almost with mathematical precision, and that the Committee on Finance can consider the great question committed to them without being affected by this question as to what the care and management of the canals may cost. Now, if we pursue the course proposed in the substitute offered by the gentleman from Ontario [Mr. Folger], we may have two committees reportng, one for a large expenditure for the canals, nd another for restricted provisions in regard to the means for the expenditures. I hope this Convention will see the necessity of leaving this Oommittee on Finance and the revenues and expenditures of the State, possessed of the elements that are necessary for them to give a full and satisfactory report, and that we will confine the other committee simply to a consideration of the administration and care of the canals. Mr. CONGER-This question presents itself to 9 the Convention at this time, under the guise of a mere parliamentary question, and as such it would hardly be worth the time that it consumed in its discussion, were it not that in point of fact it revives an old subject. We are called upon, Mr. President, principally, to attend to the matter of therevision of the Constitution, and in that purview only as far as the subject of the canals is specifically alluded to in the Constitution. I would desire to draw your attention to this consideration, that in the Constitution, as amended at the ssssion of the Legislature-in which I had the honor of holding a seat in the upper House (following up the first constitutional plan for the enlargement of the canals, since the adoption of, the Constitution of 1846, which I had the honor to present), the question of the enlargement, is a simple finality. But it does not come within the scope and meaning of those who seek now to make some other and further enlargement of the canals. If, sir, the proposition related, not only to the same subject-matter, but to the same result,' I would say it would be unwise at this time, and would object to a new distribution of the committees unless the Committee of Sixteen, who have recommended such committees, should fail to satisfy us of the wisdom of their plan. But, Mr. President, you perceive the parliamentary difficulty as well as other gentlemen of this body. You know perfectly well that if the recommendation of the Committee of Sixteen is departed from, it is a virtual instruction to you that in constituting the other commmittee, which is thus to have special charge of the subject of enlargement, you are to give to that committee a preponderance of the friends of the measure over those who oppose it. You would be commissioned and called upon to do that work now in advance of all inquiries upon the subject, and you could not, it seems to me, pursue the same liberal and enlightened course with which you started when you regarded all these subjects as fresh subjects for development, and constituted your Committee of Sixteen as though there were no other members of this Convention than those who represented the State at large, and all its interests at large. I cannot think that the gentleman from New York [Mr. Tilden] was guilty of any fallacy in stating that the subject of the enlargement of the canals, or to use the milder phrase given to it by the gentleman from Erie [Mr. Hatch], their " improvement" cannot at all be dissevered from the finances of the State, because that improvement or that enlargement can only be effected by a large and continuous expenditure of money for several years to come, so that if you must look now f:at the merits of this question which I would prefer to have postponed to a future day, you cannot fail to take the question of fresh expendture up in connection with our existing debt, an embarrassment which prevails not only over the State, but in every town and aunty, and with every individu in the State. are told that the debt of the State is limited by a sum of perhaps fifty millions of dollaW. We know that the aggregate of the debts of towns and counties would be quoted at about four times that sum. We know that our tar- of e national 66 debt, if distributed over the State of New York, under the Constitution, in proportion to the population, would amount to several hundred milllions of dollars, and if you come to consider the relation which the City of New York bears, as the financial centre of the Union to this subject, you cannot fail to believe that a much larger proportion of the National indebtedness would fall on our citizens as it must fall upon the capital represented in that city. Now, the simple fact is this, that in departing from the wise rule we have proposed to be established of appointing committees of inquiry, we are called upon to initiate a system, by which, before the exact sum of that indebtedness which belongs to the State and its people is counted up by your Finance Committee, you are disregarding all your own convictions and personal impressions to move forward in the matter of contracting a fresh debt as a measure specifically meeting at this time your approbation. If, when the report of the Finance Committee should come in, it should seem practicable to give some relief to the measure, then I would say we could act intelligently and well upon it. But before we know anything of the subject, to seem to favor an enterprise of such high magnitude as this, is a departure from the wisdom, and the moderation of our counsels which has heretofore prevailed. But practically, Mr. President, supposing this measure passes. Suppose it is adopted by the Convention,-are we relieved from any further parliamentary difficulties? Instead of having a report from one committee on this comprehensive subject, which might be a majority and minority report, we would be embarassed by reports of two committees, each perchance containing majority and minority views, and instead of any unity of purpose to be obtained by such a course, we are to be met at the threshold of this discussion by divided counsels. I trust the time has not yet come that any such unpleasant task would be forced upon the President of this Convention by the adoption of a measure which, however it may be discussed, has no other practical parliamentary meaning than this: That this body will instruct the President to give a committee to this special subject, for the enlargement of the canal, more favorable to it than to those opposed to the measure. That is the great point upon which the question now before this body rests, that it is under a great pressure and an anticipation in point of time, in point of advice and a full examination of the subject, under pretence of revising an article of the Constitution, (which, so far as the enlargement is concerned, is declared on the face of it to be a finality,) the inauguration of a new movement by which that enlargement shall be further prosecuted, and a fresh expense entailed upon the people. Mr. HATCH-I only desire to say in reply to gentlemen that they have taken a very erroneous view of the amendment that I have proposed. It really has not the importance they have attached to it. If gentlemen are disposed to force this on at this time as a test question in relation to the matter of the canals, it is no fault of mine. The amendment that I proposed is merely as to the care, management and improvement of the canals. It is a very simple proposition. 0 Mr. HUTCHINS-I believe, in the discussion of this question so far, it has been admitted by all that the arrangement made by the Committee of Sixteen is the best, under the circumstances, that could be presented to the Convention for its adoption. Now, the question here is not whether the Committee provided for by paragraph number 10 may not be so amended as to include the subject matter of the canals as well as their care and management, but the question which this Convention is to decide is, to which it should be referred as the most appropriate committee. Sir, I should as soon think of calling upon a man to construct for me an expensive house, or make other improvements without knowing whether I had the money in my pocket or not to pay him, as to separate the question of the finances of this State from the canals and their improvement or enlargement. Now, if gentlemen wish to shorten the session of this Convention, if they wish to proceed to business, at once, and to accomplish something, refer this subject to the committee as reported by the Committee of Sixteen, and obtain from them an intelligent report upon the whole subject, and act upon it. If we we to have two committees on this subject, if tey are to come in here, it may be with conflicting reports, and we are to sit here during the dog days and discuss that, that is one thing. If not, refer it to a single committee, unprejudiced, unbiased, uncommitted on this subject, and let us have a report from that committee on all these details, and we can act intelligently. I would call the attention of the Convention to a provision of the rules which is meant to cover this very subject. They will fnd that the committee recommend a committee of sixteen on the subject of finance; while the committee provided for by paragraph No. 10, is to consist of seven members. The object was to have the committee represent all interests, and be large enough to examine the whole subject in gross and in detail, and give to this Convention an intelligent and proper report of their conclusions. I hope the Convention will adopt the recommendation of the committee of sixteen. The question was then put on the amendment of Mr. Hatch, and it was lost by the following vote: Ayes.-Messrs. Alvord, Andrews, Archer, Axtell, Baker, E. Brooks, E. P. Brooks, Case, Cheritree, Clinton, Corbett, Curtiss, C. C. Dwight, Ely, Farnum, Field, Folger, Fowler, Frank, Fuller,, Gould, Hadley, Hand, Hatch, Huntington, Lee, Masten, McDonald, Merrill, C. E. Parker, Potter, Prossor, Reynolds, Rogers, Root, Silvester, Sherman, M. I. Townsend, Van Campen, Verplanck, Weed, Young.-42. Noes-Messrs. A. F. Allen, C. L. Allen, Ballard, Barker, Barto, Beadle, Beals, Beckwith, Bell, Bergen, Bickford, E. A. Brown, W. C. Brown, Cassidy, Champlain, Chesebro, Church, Colahan, Comstock, Conger, Cooke, Daly, Develin, Duganne, T. W. Dwight, Eddy, Endress, Ferry, Flagler, Francis, Garvin, Gerry, Graves, Greeley, Gross, Hale, Hammond, Hardenburgh, Harris, Hitchcock, Hitchman, Houston, Hutchins, Jarvis, Kernan, Kinney, Krum, Lapham, Larremore, Law, A. Lawrence, A. R. Lawrence, M. H. Lawrence, Livings 67 ton, Loew, Lowrey, Ludington, Mattice, Merritt, The SECRETARY then proceeded to read the Merwin, Monell, More, Morris, Murphy, Nelson, second amendment offered by Mr. Bell: Opdyke, Paige, A. J. Parker, Pond, President, "No. 10. On taxation, the revenues and expenPrindle, Rathbun, Robertson, Roy, A. D. Russell, ditures of the State, other than canals and salt Schell, Schumaker, Seaver, Seymour, Sheldon, springs, and restrictions on the power of the Smith, Spencer, Stratton, Strong, Tappen, Tilden, Legislature in respect thereto." S. Townsend, Tucker, Van Cott, Veeder, Wake- The question being put upon the amendment, man, Wales, Wickham, Williams-92. it was declared to be lost. The SECRETARY then proceeded to read the Mr. ROBERTSON offered the following amendamendment of Mr. Bell, as follows: ment to the 9th sub-division: To insert in the first line after the word No. 9. On the finances of the State, so far as " finances' the words "and e afterthy word the same shall relate to canals, the public debt and the word "State" to i ns erty," and after the trust fund. the word "State '' to insert " included.' The question being put upon the amendment, Mr. BELL-My object was, not to bring on the it was declared to be lost. discussion which has taken place upon this sub- Mr. FOLGER-Is my amendment now in ject, but it was simply to divide and arrange for order? the purpose of facilitating the purposes of this The PRESIDENT —No further amendment Convention. On looking at subdivision No. 9, I being offered, the amendment offered by the gentlefind it contains several distinct propositions, and man from Ontario [Mr. Folger], is now in order. however they may fail to harmonize in the end, The SECRETARY proceeded to read the amendthey are subjects of distinct reports, and I think ment, as follows: pertinent to be acted upon by this Convention, "To strike out subdivision 9, relating to the and by Committees of this Convention. It is canals, and also to strike out subdivision 10, and the province of the Convention to harmonize insert in lieu thereof the following: '10. On and consider these reports, should they be canals.'" discordant, which they may not be* necessarily. The PRESIDENT-The Chair does not underThe great evil, I think in our State govern- stand that No. 10 has yet been reached. ment, has been that we have looked at things too Mr. FOLGER-Of course not sir, but in order much in confusion; for instance, extreme Canal to make my amendment intelligible, it was men have looked at the revenues of the canal and necessary to connect both of these sections; but a endeavored so to arrange legislation as to appro- division can be had upon the question and I call priate the entire amount to the enlargement, su- for a division that the question may be taken first perintendence, care, or to the damages of the on striking out No. 9. canal. The object I have in view, is to ascertain Mr. WEED ---I wish to say a word upon this the capabilities of these canals and their necessary question. I deem it different from the one just care and superintendence, and of course any sug- passed upon by the Convention by the ayes and gestion which may be made upon their improve- noes. This, in the shape it is offered by ment and enlargement, and to separate that en- the gentleman from Ontario [Mr. Folger,] cantirely from the question of the finances of the State; not be construed to embarrass in any way and when the report of that Committee shall have the President of this Convention in the appointcome in and have been considered, we can, it ment of the committee upon this subject. It seems to me, compare it with the finances to see makes Committees No. 9 and No. 10 conform to the whether we will have sufficient revenue, after sup- spirit of the other committees, as laid down by porting the government, after answering the the Committee of Sixteen. If the Convention will proper objects of the State, to undertake that work. notice, every other financial subject and every The other subdivision I propose, is to divorce it other subject of State expenditure is referred entirely from the management of the canal and to to a separate and independent committee. The ascertain the revenues of the canal and to see if State prisons of this State, result in the expendiwe can in some way carry on these great public ture of money. They are a cost to the State, works without a resort to so large an amount of and we have to resort to taxation and ways and taxation. It will be seen by the statistics we have means have to be provided for the support of these before us. notwithstanding we have derived large State prisons; but the mode of providing the ways amounts from the canals for the general fund, yet and means is not included in subdivision 9, as we have been obliged to levy very large amounts reported by the Committee. The common schools by taxation to sustain these canals; and I think, are of the same character, and the educational if I remember right, within the last twenty years, interests. Therefore I say, it seems to me that the nearly $14,000,000, have been expended upon the amendment of the gentleman from Ontario [Mr. canals from direct taxation. I hope this division Folger] harmonizes with the whole spirit of these will be made, not because I would here indicate committees, and leaves it, as it seems lo me, the my purpose to enlarge the canals or not to enlarge subject should be left before this Convention. As the canals, but these amendments are simply with I look upon the duties of the gentlemenwho shall reference to the proper division of the labors of be appointed to serve upon Comittee No. 9, this Convention. My design is to add another without the canals, they have the great financial subdivision called No. 10, and still retain the pre- interests of this State in their charge. It is a sent No. 10, as No. 11, as reported from the Con- great question, how far the Constitution shall mittee of Sixteen. limit the power of the Legislature over the finanThe question being put upon the amendment ces of the State. That power, with the question of Mr. Bell, it was declared to be lost. of taxation and the general questions of finance are as much as any committee, in my view, o this body, can properly attend to. The nex question is the question of canals, and ever, gentleman upon this floor must admit that is i great question. That involves great interests o the people of this State, and one that will occupj a great deal of the time of this Convention. I seems to me the position taken by the gentlemar from New York [Mr. Tilden] is not the true posi tion. He seems to think that the question of th( enlargement, repairs and management should b( under the charge of one committee, and that thai committee should digest, if possible, a perfect system, and submit it to this Convention, that this body then can control it, and provide the means; and if this body itself, as a Convention, do not see their way clear upon this question of ways and means (which is too often the case), after they shall have digested a plan for the enlargement, if they should digest such a plan, it can then be referred to a Committee of Ways and Means to see if means can be provided for the enlargement. But, as it seems to me, the whole system, should be under the charge of one Committee; and if, as suggested by one gentleman, that Committee, as provided for in these rules, is not large enough, with seven, it is easy to have it, and I deem it proper, that the Committee upon the canals of the State, being so important, should be increased to fifteen. It seems to me, therefore, Mr. President that to be in harmony with all the rest of these Committees, reported on by the Committee of Sixteen, the amendment of the gentleman from Ontario, [Mr. Folger,] should be adopted. Mr. FERRY-I have listened very attentively to the remarks which have been made upon this subject, with a view to see where the real duty was between these various propositions. I fail to see that there will be any restriction upon the power granted to that committee, No. 9, if it should be left in this simple shape; it is simply to be a Committee upon the finances of the State. If I understood the chairman of the committee, who made this report, the claim, I believe, was, that the question of finances necessarily embraced the consideration of all the finances relating to the canals, that being, perhaps, the most important in the State. It seems to me that necessarily would be so, and it strikes me it would be inconsistent and incongruous if the Committee on the finances of the State should have, also, special reference to the canals, and ignore the fact that there are other important subjects from which revenue is derived, and of which no mention is made, when there is a negative inference, at least, to be drawn, that they were to be included. I am in favor of giving to this Committee on Finance, full scope to consider every source from which revenue is derived and every question relating to finance, and I think by this amendment they have it. I would not limit them in any respect. As Committee No. 10 is proposed here in this report, there would seem to be a restriction, to some extent, which is necessarily inconsistent, as upon y reasonable argument it must appear that the care and management of the canals necessarily as some reference to the cost and expenditures, nd it cannot be treate intelligently any other 68 f way. This amendment, as proposed, would be to t have a committee substantially upon finances, and y another one upon canals, and I would let each a committee have full scope, and let each one draw f from every source in their power any argument y they can to justify any position they may take t about it, and if they both should travel over the same ground to some extent, it would do this Convention - no harm; and even if there should be conflicting e reports I don't see how it could do any harm to this Convention. I am here to hear the various views, and the different propositions and results they may give; that is what we are here for, in order to consult and decide these questions understandingly and properly. My view of the, proposition is, and that is why I am in favor of the amendment of the gentleman from Ontario [Mr. Folger], to give to both Committees full scope without restriction upon either, and it seems to me all ought to be satisfied with it. Mr. CHURCH-I have been unwilling to occupy the time of this Convention with any remarks upon the subject of this reference. I was in hopes that the report of this committee would be adopted. I think the adoption of this report would facilitate very much, the business of this Convention, and I do not believe, although the report may be criticized in some particulars, that a better arrangement can be made, than was reported by the committee. In reference to the immediate proposition before the Convention, it is simply the same proposition as that made by the gentleman from Erie [Mr. Hatch], which has been voted down by the Convention, it involves precisely the same principles, and it is this:-An attempt to separate the project of the enlargement of the Erie canal, from the financial question involved in it. Now, sir, with all due respect, it seems to me it is utterly impossible to separate these two questions. The financial question is the principal, if not the only difficult question connected with that subject. If we had a surplus of money, if there was uo difficulty in relation to the ways and means for enlarging the canal, there would probably be on the part of the members of this Convention no objection to it; but, if this enlargement is to be entered upon, it must be done in one of three ways. In the first place, by the appropriation of the surplus revenues of the canal and the postponement of the present debt of the State. 2d. By direct taxation. 3d. By incurring a debt. Mr. HATCH-Will the gentleman allow me a moment. It seems to me the first question is not the amount of surplus money the State has on hand; but the question is, the care and management of these canals in the administration of the State, so as to protect the revenues of the canals from extravagance and corruption, and if this cannot be secured, it is a matter of no consequence what the surplus monies shall be derived from for they will all be squandered. Mr. CHURCH-I beg to say to my friend from Erie, and to all other gentlemen who are understood to be in favor of the enlargement of the canals, that the report of this committee and the arrangement made by this committee involves in no respect the merits of that proposition; it only determines the manner in which this Convention 69 will proceed to act upon the subject. In one aspect of the case there is a double proposition in this paragraph No. 9;-the propriety and the necessity of enlarging the canals and the ways and means by which that enlargement is to be effected. And this is necessarily so; it cannot be otherwise, and because it could not be otherwise, this Committee determined to have a large committee of sixteen for the purpose of considering and reporting upon this subject; or, in other words, to have two committees in one, upon the whole of this question, who would consider it in all its aspects. It seems to me that the finances of the State, and the question connected with the finances of the State cannot be separated. I should regard it as exceedingly unfortunate for the business of this Convention to have two committees make conflicting reports upon the same question; it would lead to confusion, and would not in my judgment be satisfactory to any member of this Convention. It is all important, and it is constituted one of the great labors of this committee, that the business of this Convention should be so parcelled out, that each committee should have entire and exclusive charge of one given subject. It is important that we should have one harmonious system of finance for the State in all its departments, and that system can only be devised by the constitution of one committee. In the Convention of 1846, this very committee had in charge, not only all the subjects which this proposition would give it by this report, but it also had in charge what is contained in the sub-division No. 10, the superintendence and management of canals. But it was thought by this committee that this question of the superintendence and management of the canals, was an independent proposition, and it might well be separated from the great question of finance, and I don't agree with my esteemed friend from Ontario [Mr. Folger] when he says that this question of the superintendence and management of the canals is a financial question. It is in no proper sense a financial question.; and in relation to the management of the canals, if it is any way connected with the finances, it must be left to the Legislature,-I mean as to the amount expended upon the canals for ordinary repairs from year to year; it cannot be determined by this Convention or by any public body. It may be in one year $600,000, or it may necessarily be $,200,000; but the expense of keeping the canals in repair must first be taken out of the revenues of the canals, whether they be great or small; it cannot be regulated or fixed by any provision of the Constitutional Convention, except so far as they may fix it and regulate it, by the manner in which the canals are kept in repair, and by the officers that are provided. But this provision does not constitute a financial question any more than the Committee of Judiciary constitutes a financial question. Of course, they provide for the election of judges of the State. It takes money to pay them, but it is not a financial question in any proper sense of that term, because these expenses are paid out of a fund to be provided by the Legislature, from year to year, but it cannot be regulated any other way. So with the Committee on State Prisons, that might be called, in some sense, a financial ques tion, but it is not, in the sense in which this paragraph is intended to appoint, the committee, because the expenses of certain persons are provided to be paid out of a general fund, to be appropriated by the Legislature, from year to year. But, sir, the revenues of the State, and the expenditures of the State, whether from the enlargement of the canals, or for any other project or scheme that may be proposed in this Convention, must, in my judgment, be under the charge of one single committee, to make a report for the consideration of this Convention. It cannot be done otherwise. The proposition which is now pending before the Convention might involve precisely this state of things. The Committee on Finance, which includes, as I understand the proposition, all the finances in relation to the canals, might make a disposition with reference to all the revenues of the canals, and the committee might provide for the application of those revenues upon the debt in a certain way, and it might place certain restrictions, and perhaps, certain prohibitions upon the action of the Legislature, with reference to finance and the appropriations of public money; then the Committee on Canals, which is proposed by this amendment, might come in with a report, which would entirely upset and destroy the report of the Committee on Finance, and which would necessarily produce the greatest possible confusion in the action of this Convention. I do not intend to express or intimate any views upon the various projects which may be presented for the consideration of this Convention, I only say, and insist, that this great question of finance, and this great question of the revenues of this State, and the expenditures, for any purpose whatever, must necessarily be, as it seems to me, under the charge of one single committee, and I hope and trust, sir, that this amendment will not prevail, but that the report of the committee will be adopted, because I believe it will greatly facilitate the action of this Con. vention. Mr. ALVORD-It seems to me, Mr. President, that we have our work laid out here in the manner in which we have got to proceed with it. Judging from the remarks of the distinguished gentleman from Orleans [Mr. Church], we are to make these committees and they are to take the several matters which we shall intrust to their charge, and upon the incoming of their report, it is to be the embodiment of our ideas, and go down to the people as their Constitution. There is no other legitimate conclusion to be deduced from the remarks the gentleman has made. I can see no difference myself, between two committees having different names and with diffrent powers, coming into this Convention without harmonious action, and a single committee with one-half or a majority submitting a report not harmonizing with the views of the other half, or the minority. And that is all there is of this last psition taken by the gentleman from Orleans [Mr. Church]. We have a right, r, f we are upon committees to speak on our own notions and our own views in regard to matters placed before us, and a Committee may wel -be divided, not only twice, but three, four, five or six 70 times. As a matter of necessity they must be. The result of their deliberations is to bring inharmonious action before the Convention, and it is because Committees view matters under different lights. Now, sir another thing. I deem that it is wrong upon the part of any member of this Cdnvention, at this stage of its proceedings, to undertake to bring before the body of this Convention the idea that there is an array of a portion of members in favor of any one provision as against another. We came here for the purpose of general enlightenment-to look over all these questions in their broad view as questions affecting the entire interest of the people of this State, to enlighten each other, so far as our knowledge will go, and for that purpose to assimilate and harmonize our different views in our final action. Now, sir, the question of the enlargement of the canal should not enter, in my opinion, into this discussion. But it strikes me, sir, that this very Committee of Sixteen, in framing their report for a division of subjects which they have placed before us, have themselves dragged this matter into the Convention. They have proposed to give the subject of the Judiciary to a separate and distinct Committee, and yet the question of the Judiciary involves the consideration of the expense of maintaining it, and requires that the moneys expended for it be raised out of the pockets of the people. They go on again and give us a Committee on States Prisons. They do not say "for the care and management of State Prisons," but for the " State Prisons." I ask you, sir, and I ask every member of this Convention whether that does not involve a question of finance-whether if we have State prisons, we. have not to maintain them if they will not maintain themselves, or if they will, to take care of the revenues derived from them. And so I might mention other committees in reference to this matter. All that we propose here is that which we grant to the committee, that they shall be a Committee on Finance, upon the revenues and expenditures of this State, with entire power over the vast field of finance, revenue and expenditure, yet so far as the canals are concerned, they shall not be considered in one aspect by one committee and in another aspect by another committee. That is all we ask in regard to this matter. I, for one, hope and desire that the very best efforts and the very best intellect of this Convention will give that due -attention to the finances of the State that their immense importance demands, and that it shall speak on this subject undisguisedly and fearlessly in such direction as members please. I care not if there come up from every one of the committees, their views in financial operations connected with their departments. I desire it. I take it that it is not to be left to the Committee of Sixteen what shall be the action of this Convention as a finality, but that it depends upon what shall be the united and concerted wisdom of the Convention, what shall be the result of its labors, and which we hope the people will approve by sustaining the acts we have performed. With the view I take, with the lights I have to guide my action, I hope that we may take the middle course, and not here determine by a vote of the Convention, either impliedly or directly, either in favor of or against the question of the enlargement of the canals, but leave it where we leave other questions-the judiciary, our State prisons, education and others-to be taken care of in the future, when the reports of the committees shall come in, by the Convention. Mr. PRINDLE-I am unwilling to sit here in silence and allow the idea to go forth that this is to be a test question whether we are in favor of an enlargement of the canals or not. For myself, I wish it distinctly understood that whatever vote I may give upon this question, I vote neither in favor of an enlargement of the canals nor against it. I do not wish to decide that question at the present time. I do not wish to give a vote upon that question now. I have not examined it. Are we to vote for it, or are we to be understood as voting in favor of or against the enlargement of the canals before a committee has reported upon the question, before we have examined it, and before we have had any statistics to enlighten us? I trust not, sir. Now, the question of the canals and the question of the finances of this State are interwoven, one with the other, and they cannot, by any possibility, be separated, and yet they present too vast a field of inquiry, perhaps, for any one committee to examine. We may separate them here. We may send one part to one committee and the other to the other. But, sir, after the committees have brought in their reports the subjects must be discussed together, and in connection in this Convention in Committee of the Whole. We shall be called upon in the end to consider them together. Now, it seems to me that the best way in which we can get out of this dilemma is to adopt the proposition of the gentleman from Otsego [Mr. Ferry] that we simply have one Committee on Finances and another on Canals, leaving to their discretion to consider if they please the whole subject. What difference does it make if the Committee on Canals consider the question of finance, and the Committee on Finance consider the question of canals, so far as necessary to make intelligent reports upon the particular subjects confided to them respectively? When the report of the two committees are before us, we can consider the matter in Committee of the Whole, and we shall be compelled to consider the two questions together. It seems to me that that is the simplest and most intelligent mode of dealing with the subject. Mr. M. I. TOWNSEND-The location of the question of the enlargement of the Erie Canal, if that question shall arise before any of the committees, as they are proposed to be constituted by the Committee of Sixteen, seems to take it for granted that there is no interest connected with the canals of this State, except the interest of finance, because there is in neither committee the right to consider any such interest. Committee No. 10 is restricted to the simple consideration of the care and management of the canals. Now, sir, I think that De Witt Clinton, if he could look into this Chamber to-day, would be somewhat surprised to see so nMany gentlemen impressed with the idea that the State has nc interest in the canals except that of receipts and disbursements. I do not understand, sir, that these 71 canals were undertaken as a speculation on the part of the State. I do not understand now that the question of receipts and disbursements on account of the canals of this State, form any considerable proportion of the interest connected with these great enterprises. I look upon our canal system as the arterial life of the State of New York. The gentleman from Rockland [Mr. Conger] has stated to us in reference to the debt that is resting upon us and the burdens under which the people of the State are now suffering. I would ask that gentleman, through the Chair, how the people of Rockland get their bread except through our canals? The very corn that is fod to his cattle and horses, and to a very great degree, the very bread that is eaten by the people of Rockland, must be obtained by them through our canals. Sir, my constituents-and though I represent the people of the State of New York, I mean by the term, my immediate constituentsin the county of Rensselear, are dependent upon the canals for the very bread that they eat. And the commercial metropolis, some of whose representatives feel disposed to shut off all inquiry in regard to the canals except as the financial interests of the State are affected, is as much dependent upon the canals for its prosperity as upon any other source whatever. The merchant in New York, dealing in heavy goods depends upon the canals for their transportation. Sir, who can estimate the amount of business tending to create and promote prosperity arising from the receipts of produce brought from the far West through our canals? The mercantile interests of this State are affected by the canals to a degree that it is not easy to compute in figures. Yet, sir, if the report of the Committee of Sixteen is adopted every such consideration is shut out from the deliberation of any committee-at least, I do not find where it would be considered. I would be thankful to any gentleman who will tell me where and by what committee it is proper to consider the fact of the increasing value of the property in that part of the State over which the canal runs, if you take the report of the committee as it now stands. I understand that the operation of our canals has made land in the county of Orleans as valuable for agricultural purposes as the land in the county of Columbia or the county of Rensselaer. Mr. CHURCH-The subject which the gentleman mentions is included in this proposition to refer it to Committee No. 9. Mr. M. I. TOWNSEND-Does the gentleman from Orleans [Mr. Church], consider the effect of the canal in increasing the prosperity of the State, is to be considered in that committee? Mr. CHURCH-Their value to the finances of the State is expressly referred to this committee. Mr. M. I. TOWNSEND-The subject certainly is a large one, and will engross the entire attention of some committee. The real objection to this division of committees is that Committee No. 9 has too much to do. Committee No. 10 has nothing to do, substantially, whatever. Now, sir, I feel the burden of taxation pressing upon my mind as strongly as any one, and I think if this Committee No. 9 would devote a little more time to the question of taxation, they would have the opportunity to do as much to relieve the people of the State from their burdens, as in watching over the canals. There is one important question that that committee ought toconsider, a question, that by the Constitution of 1846, was left in the discretion of the Legislature. The Legislature, as I conceive, has not done its duty in regard to that great subject; I refer to the question of the taxation of personal property. This Convention, in my opinion, should make it compulsory upon the Legislature of this State to make personal property bear its equal share in the burden of the taxation of this State; but it is a notorious fact that almost one-half of the property of this State entirely escapes taxation; and if the gentleman from Rockland [Mr. Conger], and the gentleman from New York [Mr. Tilden] will join heart and hand here and so apportion that burden as to bring personal property that now escapes taxation under the purview of the Legislature and make it bear its share of taxation, the burden that now rests upon the people of the State will be greatly lightened. Those immense interests that are connected with the railroads out of this State building at the West, the personal property that lies in the shape of merchandize in the commercial cities and localities of this State, if they are made to bear their due share of the public burden, the taxation will lie less heavily on the people of the State than it does at the present time. I say I concur with the gentleman from Rockland [Mr. Conger], that taxation at the present time is a real evil although, I believe, the gentleman has in his imagination magnified the liabilities of this State some four times. Whatever be the amount, taxation rests heavily upon us, and it is our duty to do every thing in our power to lighten, that burden. And if Committee No. 9 will devote themselves to that subject, as I have no doubt they will, they will have plenty to do. And at the same time, permit me to say, that however heavy be the burden of taxation I have no doubt the patriotism of the people is sufficient to carry us through. It was for that great and glorious object, the preservation of our country and the preservation of its principles, that this debt was contracted, and I know that our patriotism will be sufficient to sustain us through every difficulty. However severe the burden may rest upon us, it is none the less the fact that that burden is resting upon us, and I hope the proper committee will discharge its duties by bringing every portion of the property of this State within the purview of the Legislature, and make it compulsory upon the Legislature of the State of New York to impose this burden equally upon all. But at the same time let there be no mistake on the subject. I would not undertake to do what, under the Constitution of the United States, I have no power to do. I would not undertake to tax property we have no right to tax, but I would tax that property that is not now taxed at all in any shape, and which it is clearly our right to tax, and thus relieve the people of the State of New York from their burden. It is because I conceive that Committee No. 9, as proposed by the report of the Committee of Sixteen, has too much to do, and that Committee 72 No. 10 has substantially nothing to do, that I would commit the great subject of the canals to Committee No. 10. Mr. COMSTOCK-It seemed to me, in the committee, that these two subjects were so connected that they ought to be examined together, the subject of a large expenditure of money for improvements, and the subject of ways, means and plans; I, therefore, concurred in the report of the committee and am content on the whole to abide by it now, although I do not think the question is fundamental, because I do not believe that the merits of the canals, or the merits of any particular scheme for improvements are involved in this question of reference. I wish to say now, and it is all I desire to say, that, in sustaining the action of the committee, I am not to be understood, for one, as at all committed against the early enlargement and completion of the canals. On the contrary, upon a view of the whole subject, when it shall be presented by the committee in a financial view as well, I hope to be able to stand among the foremost of the friends for the earliest possible perfection of our system of internal improvement, but I do not consider the subject involved in this resolution. Mr. MERRITT-The Committee of Sixteen was constituted with great care and good judgment and with a liberality which has been most heartily commended. They have considered all the questions which would probably come before this body. They have made a unanimous report;that report meets my most hearty approval. It perhaps may have been a little unfortunate that this discussion on the canal question should have been introduced; that the gentleman from Erie, [Mr. Hatch] in proposing his amendment introduced the subject, and, therefore, made it, to a certain extent, a test question, whether the subject of the canals should be taken up and considered by a committee constructed With special reference to that interest. Those who pretend to have it in their charge were wrong to have it presented at this time, to seeure if possible an expression from this body favorable to that interest, and in some degree at least influence the formation of committees. Mr. HATOH-I made no proposition before the Convention in relation to the enlargement of the Erie Canal I merely suggested as an amendment the word "improvement" be inserted in resolution No. 10. Mr. MERRITT-If I recollect the gentleman's remarks correctly, he said that this subject would be one of great importance to be considered by this Convention-I mean the subject of the improvement of the canals. For that reason he desired it to go to this Committee to be reported upon. And now, in regard to the question of the diffusion of finances, which has been alluded to. The people do not understand fully the various appropriations which have been made, but they do to understand in the aggregate what they have got pay. It is very proper, therefore, that the whole subject should be considered by one committee. They know what seven mills tax on the dollar means, in the aggregate. They do not go into particulars and fraction of mills, to be raised for specific purposes. In the construction of this Committee No. 9, to be composed of sixteen members, all parts of the State can be fairly and properly represented. The Committee seem to have taken this into consideration. It is proper that the proposed Committee should, in the first instance, take up this whole subject, and if they find their labors too arduous, they can ask this Convention to relieve them of a portion of their duties, and they can, at any time, report upon any particular subject which they may have fairly considered, or report in part and not in full; they can make sub-committees, and it is very proper that this whole subject should be left to them. As to what course I shall take upon any of these questions, I do not propose at this time to commit myself; there is no question of general interest within the bounds of the State, in which I have not an equal interest with every other citizen. Every citizen should have an interest in internal improvements, education, judiciary, and every question that may come up properly before this Convention, and I hope that in the construction of the committees every interest will be considered and represented; that the proper persons will be put upon them, without reference to their predilections for or against any proposition, either of the present Constitution or any proposition which may be submitted for the consideration of this body. I hope, therefore, we shall adhere strictly to the report of this Committee, and then we can proceed with the legitimate duties for which we have been convened. Mr. RATHBUN-Mr. President, the object, as I understand, of the motion made, is purely in reference to the division of labor without attempting to interfere with the direction of the business or to interfere with anything that is necessary in order to give to any committee control of the entire subject. But the question is one which affects the interest of this Convention in reference to the time which will be necessary to be consumed by the committee in the investigation of the subject matter to be referred to them. Now, sir, I propose to look for one moment at this section No. 9, and call the attention of the gentlemen to it to show that it embraces a great variety of topics, and an immense amount of labor. As it embraces the finances of the State, and takes in that whole subject, I omit the canals, in the reading, because I propose to show, and call the attention of the Convention to the fact, that it has got an immense amount of labor without reference to that question. First, finances; second, the public debt; third, the revenues, including all revenues derived from the canals and all other sources. Every branch of revenue is to be left to that committee. Fourth, expenditures of every character and kind; fifth, the taxation of the people for all purposes and the amount. All these subjects are committed to that committee. And in addition to that, there is also the subject of the restrictions upon the power of the Legislature in regard to expenditures. I ask, gentlemen, in looking at these subjects which I have read whether it would not be asking top much of that committee to take the whole amount of that labor upon their hands and ask this Convention of one hundred and sixty members to sit here and wait day 73 after day and month after month in order to obtain reports upon which they can act. Now the claim is, that superadded to this shall be the canals; then the revenues and all matters connected with it. They are not content with that but desire the canals. For what? What does the Committee on Finance want with the canals when they have the consideration of the revenues to be derived from them? They have entire charge and control of that subject. What business I ask, have they with the canals themselves in addition to that? Upon the question of improvement and enlargement, I am very much disposed to wait until we get something to make improvements or an enlargement with, before we lay any more taxes apon the people. I am not much in favor of that until some one can show me how we are going to pay for it. Therefore, in my vote I want it to be distinctly understood that I am not voting in favor of enlargement at all, but I propose to divide this question as a matter of economy of time, and as an equitable division of labor among the members of this Convention. I am not disposed to wait all summer until the election comes, for a committee to work out the whole labor of this Convention, while there are plenty of gentlemen here who are willing to take part of the labor. The question is clearly divisible. The amendment proposes simply to take the question of finance and give it to one committee, and take the question of the canals and give it to another one. If they do not agree, there are a good many gentlemen here who know how to amend and improve and make things harmonious. If not, we had better refer the matter to sixteen gentlemen, and let them dispose of the case, and the rest of us may then be profitably employed at home. I am in favor of the ameldment, because I am in favor of dividing the labor. It will facilitate our labor, and allow us to go home without waiting here until after election. Mr. MASTEN-It is with great diffidence that I differ from the report of this committee, for I have no doubt that they have bestowed great care, intelligence and integrity in the distribution of our labors. I somewhat, sir, regret the line of argument that has been adopted on this occasion; I regret that the merits of the subject referred to have been considered. I do not propose, sir, on this occasion to say one word as to whether the canal should be enlarged or not. But I find, sir, that two of the greatest subjects upon which we are possibly to act are combined together and referred to one committee. The subject of finance is a subject which must engage our attention; it is a subject which will give abundance of labor to any committee that may have it in charge. But, sir, we have in our midst public improvements vast and great, that attract the attention not only of our country, but attract the attention of the world, and I have been surprised, sir, that this committee have not deemed so important a subject as this entitled to a separate committee. It is upon this ground that I shall vote for the amendment. I think, Sir, without reference to what is to be done in respect to our public improvements, that the subject is so great that it should have a committee of its own, and, I think, that not only our own people, but those who live beyond in the far west will be surprised that this 10 Convention have not given to that subject a separate committee. It is true that these Committees will, to a certain extent, have to consider the same questions; but, nevertheless, the two subjects are so distinct and important in other patticulars that it seems to me a separate Co ittee should be appointed in respect to the canals. Mr. CUNTON-Mr. President I perhaps my, vote on the proposition of the gentleman from Erie [Mr. Hatch], and my vote on the proposition,now pending are guided more by feeling than bv anything else. I am satisfied. Mr. President, thit however our conimmittees may be constituted and whatever the division of labor may be, they wilf be filled by gentlemen who will deliberate fully upon the subjects committed tothem; and I am satisfied that whatever a committee may do,;or may omit to do in the performance of its duty,: this Convention will not separate until it has fairly and fully discussed every proposition for a Consti. tutional amendment of the least importance to the people of this State. Now, Mr. President, it does seem very strange to me, and I speak it as a matter of feeling, for this Convention to hesitate, for a single moment to give the canals a committee of their own. There is more than a financial question involved in the subject of the enlargement of our canals. Why, air, I am unwilling for one to say that a proposition, involving such momentous considerations, should be sent to, what will be known by the world, as a Committee on Finance. I am unwilliniz that a committee so called and which is expcted only to work out pecuniary results of this, that, and the other matter, should have the sole and entire dealing with the canals of this State. Sir, the canals are the glory. of this State I They have been the very foundation of that prosperity which makes. us proudly eminent among our sister States. When you are passing upon the question of the enlargement of the canals, you are passing upon the question as to whether this glorious State shall fulfil to the very terms the promises which she held out to the government, to the unbroken West, and to those who flee from oppression abroad and come here where they can enjoy freedom; and whether this State will to the utmost of its strength, go far as is consistent with its own good, to enlarge and keep open this great highway, which has made the Northwest a sisterhood of States, and which has given to our country that strength, without which, the base rebellion of the South would have been successful I say to you, Mr. President, in my humble opinion, the prosperity of this State the great question whether the citiesand villazes which have sprung up along the banks of our Canals, shall wither away, like Jonah's gourd, or whether they shall gain strength and double and quadruple their population, and whether the value of our land shall continue to rise and enhance - that these-'. Are A the issues which are involved in the question of the enlargement of the Erie Cana4 and I am not willing to send that question to a committee which I am compelled to call a Committee on Financ No, air I Do as all oAr legislative bodies do; give the canals a committee of their own. There 'is some. thin air, far more precious than money-honor 9 and glory-the great question 'whether this State Convention have not given to that subject a separate committee. It is true that these committees will, to a certain extent, have to consider the same questions; but, nevertheless, the two subjects are so distinct and important in other particulars that it seems to me a separate Committee should be appointed in respect to the canals. Mr. CLINTON-Mr. President, perhaps my vote on the proposition of the gentleman from Erie [Mr. Hatch], and my vote on the proposition now pending are guided more by feeling than by anything else. I am satisfied. Mr. President, that however our commmittees may be constituted and whatever the division of labor may be, they will be filled by gentlemen who will deliberate fully upon the subjects committed to them; and I am satisfied that whatever a committee may do, or may omit to do in the performance of its duty, this Convention will not separate until it has fairly and fully discussed every proposition for a Constitutional amendment of the least importance to the people of this State. Now, Mr. President, it does seem very strange to me, and I speak it as a matter of feeling, for this Convention to hesitate for a single moment to give the canals a committee of their own. There is more than a financial question involved in the subject of the enlargement of our canals. Why, sir, I am unwilling for one to say that a proposition, involving such momentous considerations, should be sent to, what will be known by the world, as a Committee on Finance. I am unwilling that a committee so called and which is expected only to work out pecuniary results of this, that, and the other matter, should have the sole and entire dealing with the canals of this State. Sir, the canals are the glory of this State! They have been the very foundation of that prosperity which makes us proudly eminent among our sister States. When you are passing upon the question of the enlargement of the canals, you are passing upon the question as to whether this glorious State shall fulfil to the very terms the promises which she held out to the government, to the unbroken West, and to those who flee from oppression abroad and come here where they can enjoy freedom; and whether this State will to the utmost of its strength, so far as is consistent with its own good, to enlarge and keep open this great highway, which has made the Northwest a sisterhood of States, and which has given to our country that strength, without which, the base rebellion of the South would have been successful. I say to you, Mr. President, in my humble opinion, the prosperity of this State, the great question whether the cities and villages which have sprung up along the banks of our canals, shall wither away like Jonah's gourd, or whether they shall gain strength and double and quadruple their population, and whether the value of our land shall continue to rise and enhance —that these are the issues which are involved in the question of the enlargement of the Erie Canal, and am not willing to send that question to a committee which I am compelled to call a (ommittee on Finance. No, sir I Do as all oarlegislative bodies do; give the canals a committee of their own. There is something sir, far more precious than money —honor and glory-the great question whether this State 74 shall vindicate her motto and go higher like the rising sun. All these are involved in the question of enlargement, and I therefore pray you, if it be consistent, and I think it clearly is, with the due investigation, not onlybf our finances, but of everything else, for the honor of the Convention itself, to give our canals a separate and independent committee 1 Mr. PAIGE-It has been quite impossible for me to conceive how the merits of the question of the improvements of the canals can be involved in the simple question of reference. The whole State is in favor of the canals. The people are in favor of their preservation, and in favor of their improvement. The simple question is a question of reference. It seems to me that the gentleman is mistaken in reference to the multifariousness of the duties imposed upon the Committee on Finance. The term finance is generic. It is a comprehensive term; it embraces the public debt, expenditures, taxation and revenue. They are all one subject only-the subject of finance. The revenues embrace the revenues of the State; not only the revenues from the property, other than the canals, but anything created by the property of the State, forms a part of the revenue of the State. Our difficulty has been in separating the canals from the revenue of the canals. Certainly the revenues from the canals are embraced within the legitimate duty of the Committee on Finance. The question of the canals involves not only the question of revenues, but the question of expenditures. It is difficult to make the separation. The Committee of Sixteen devolved upon the Committee on Finances the consideration of the canals in so far as the subject involved expenditure. It does seem to me that the debate has been extended beyond the merits of the question. The merit of the further enlargement of the canal is not involved here, and I, therefore, hope the report of the committee will be adopted. Mr. LAPHAM -It is due to this question that I should state that this is the only question which was regarded of sufficient importance in the action of this committtee, to put to the decision of a test question. It was carried by the vote of a majority. The minority, of which I was one, did not deem it necessary to present a report, for the reason that we intended to refer the matter to the judgment and intelligence of the Convention. I was myself in favor, in the committee, of leaving the subject, as proposed by my colleague from Ontario [Mr. Folger], because I believe that the subject of the canals should go to the Committee on Canals; and a controlling reason with me is this: That the question of enlargement is necessarily bound up and involved in the question of canal management. There can be no enlargement of the canals without involving the question of their use in the mean time. And that full subject properly and legitimately belongs to a single committee. I shall, therefore, vote for the amendment. Mr. DUGANNNE - I suggested that this might bear somewhat of the character of a test question. I did so because, in my.mind, it seemed to me that we were to pass upon the question of whether it were best to take from the Committee on Finance all purview over the question of canals, and leave the canals to a special committee, or to a committee devoted entirely to canals, or whether we should allow the Committee on Finance to work upon this subject of canals in conjunction with the great financial interests of the State. The canals are or are not a source of revenue to the State; they should be, or should not be in the future, a source of great revenue to the State. Taking this view of the question, it seemed to me eminently proper for the Committee on Finance to consider the subject of the canals in its financial character, in conjunction with the subject of the other institutions and interests of the State, financially. I see no reason why there should be any conflict between the Committee on Canals, if you please, with the powers which have been given to the Committee on Finance. The Committee on Canals will consider the subject and probably report sooner than the Committee on Finance will-I mean the general subject-and we shall have such information and such suggestions as they choose to give us, to guide us in our consideration of the subject of canals. Then, afterward, when the Committee on Finance, in its broader view of the vast interests connected with the financial department of the State, shall bring in its report, we shall be competent to have determined by our previous investigation, what we shall do with regard to the report of the Committee on Finance, upon the subject of canals. I see no conflict at all in the afpportionment of the powers and duties. Mr. SEYMOUR-I should not trouble the Convention with a single word, after the very full debate that has been had, but for the fact that some gentlemen who have spoken have seemed to look upon this question as a test question, and it has been intimated that gentlemen who are to be considered in favor of our system of canals, and their improvement and extension, will be supposed to vote for a special committee on the subject. I have always been a friend to our system of internal improvements. I hope to be able in this Convention, before it shall close, to show myself to be a consistent friend hitherto, and to satisfy all that I shall equally friendly to them in the future. I do not see that the question is involved at all in the decision which the Convention is now called upon to make. I ageee with my friend that the question of finance seems to cover the whole ground, for it is perfectly plain that all that is contemplated by the most conservative and most extreme friend of the canals must, after all, come back to the financial question; and although a member of the Committee of Sixteen which submitted this report, I was, in the committee, disposed to go with my friend from Ontario [Mr. Lapham]; yet upon a full review of the question, and seeing its bearing upon the question of finance, I am disposed to adhere to the report of the committee, not committing myself thereby to anything that may be deemed hostile to our noble system of canals. I shall therefore support the report of the committee. Mr. BICKFORD-Mr. President, I wish to say but a single word. It is not only the question of the improvement and enlargement of the canals that is involved in this matter, but there is, from what I have heard and seen since I came to this Convention, a proposition to come before it to sell or lease the lateral canals, if not the Erie canal 75 also. I wish to say that although I voted against the proposition of the gentleman from Erie [Mr. Hatch], to include the subject of improvement of the canals in stating the duties of the committees, yet I am unwilling that the subject of leasing or selling the canals-either the lateral canals or the Erie canal-shall be considered merely as a question of finance, or merely in a financial point of view. I shall therefore sustain the substitute of the gentleman from Ontario [Mr, Folger]. The PRESIDENT then announced that the question was on the substitute of Mr. Folger. The ayes and nays were called for, and a sufficient number seconding the call, they were ordered. Mr. HAND-I shall vote for the amendment offered by the gentleman from Ontario [Mr. Folger]. I do not suppose thereby that I am voting on a test question. I cannot see how the subject of the enlargement of the canals is legitimately before us. It is simply a question of expediency to facilitate business and carry it rapidly forward. The question seems to me like a very simple one indeed, looking to the appointment of a committee on finance to consider the subject of finances in all its bearings everywhere-the financial question connected with our system of education, connected with our State Prisons, connected with everything with which finance is associated, and then a Committee on Canals to give us everything that they can ascertain with reference to the interests of the canals in all their bearings, and make that a legitimate subject of inquiry, disassociated from everything else. If they choose to recommend the enlargement of the canals let them give us the reasons why. Let some friend of the enlargement be on each committee who may state to us the reasons for the conclusion. Both committees necessarily will have to consider some of these financial questions. These questions will cross and interlace together. They are not to be decided by piecemeal. The reports of all the committees will be before us, and when they are spread out before us, with the liabilities of the State, to which gentlemen have alluded, then the question will be whether, necessary as an enlargement or improvement of the canals may be, we shall incur the expense for it-or whether we shall do wisely to recommend it. If each committee has distinctly had the subject before it it will have a fuller investigation than it otherwise would have if you connect the interests of the Canal with the financial interests of the State, in the considerations of a single committee. Why not put in the subject of State Prisons, and of general education, which have financial aspects in which they maybe considered, in charge of the Committee on Finance? The absurdity of the thing is apparent to my mind in mixing up matters which should be considered separately, however much they may be associated with financial considerations. I think that all these interests ought to be considered in their bearings upon one another. I will not pursue these remarks, but it seems to me that we should facilitate business and simplify the whole matter and make it clearer to the minds of every member by separating these subjects which do not necessarily belong together. Mr. FLAGLER-Mr. President: If this question now pending, is as important as this long debate now implies, a little reflection, perhaps a little slumber, will be of service. With the view of testing the sense of the Convention, I move that we now adjourn. The question was put on the motion of Mr. Flagler, and it was declared lost. Mr. VERPLANCK —I do not rise to make more than a single suggestion; to appeal to the justness and fairness of this Convention. The question of the canals is one of the most important questions that will come before this body, and in forming the committee upon it with reference to the work of this body, the committee should be formed, of course, with a majority of the friends of the canals. It has been said by the gentleman from Schenectady [Mr. Paige], that every body is friendly to the canals. That is a mistake; because I know that there is a considerable body of men in this State who advocate the selling of the canals. I suggest, therefore, that it is fair in forming these committees for the purpose of apportioning the work, that there should not be put upon the Committee on Canals, men who have some peculiar views in regard to the expenditures of the State and the restrictions of the Legislature in reference to those expenditures. It is a little thing for this great interest, to ask that the Convention shall give them a committee on this subject, the majority of whom shall be friends of the canals. I ask this from the fairness and justice of this Convention. Mr. SILVESTER-I do not consider that by the adoption of the amendment of the gentleman from Ontario [Mr. Folger], the Committee on the Finances of this State will be at all precluded from considering the subject of the canals, in connection with that of finances. After that committee have given their best care and attention to many other questions that are involved in that subject-the public debt, its payment, providing means of payment, the revenues of the State, the expenditures of the State, the great question of taxation-after these have been considered, if there is any time for that commiitee to devote to the question of the canals and to the financial questions connected therewith, they can consider them and make a report. They will not be precluded by the amendment of the gentleman from Ontario from pursuing this course. But, sir, it seems to me, with all due respect to the Committee of Sixteen, and the time they have undoubtedly given to the report they have submitted, that it has given a very small place to such a great interest as the canals of this State, when they are placed in only two small sections-in Committee No. 9, in connection with the financial question of this State, and in another section confined entirely to the superintendence and management of the canals and the officers who shall have charge of them. Why, sir, there is no interest in the State, perhaps, greater than that of the canals. There is no other interest in the State which, perhaps, has so much added to our greatness in times past, and which holds out so great a prospect of greatness for the time to come; and yet almost every other class of interests in this State has, a separate com ~: 76 mittse. Cities have their committee; currency and banking have a committee; counties; towns and villages have a committee; State prisons have a committee; the pardoning power has a committee; the militia and military officqrs have a committee; education and the funds relating thereto have a committee, while none has been accorded to the canals. Now it is said that the question of finances is interwoven with this question of the canals, and therefore it is proper it should be considered by the Committee on Finance. Why sir, is not the financial question also interlaced and interwoven with the question of the judiciary, with the question of corporations, with the question of State prisons, with the question of militia and military officers, and with the question of education? It is qbnnected with all these separate interests, yet updn each of them, a separate committee is to be appointed by the President of this Convention; while upon this great interest of the canals, there is to be no'separate committee. I submit sir, that it is injustice to this great interest, that it is injustice to the people of this State, that it is injustice to the past history of the canals, that it is injustice to the associations that are connected with those interests, that they should not have at the hands of the Convention assembled to deliberate upon the interests of the State, and form a Constitution which may last for years to come, and under which it may increase in greatness and glorya committee which shall consider the whole subject of the canals. This Committee on Finance will be so much involved in questions connected with taxation, the basis of taxation, and the manner of regulating taxation, and providing for our State debt, that they will not be able to investigate many subjects which cluster around the subject of the canals. Sir, the canals are a great interest-an interest upon which the fortunes and welfare and prosperity of the State depend almost as much as any interest, which will be brought before us for our consideration, and I hope and trust, therefore, that the amendment of the gentleman from Ontario [Mr. Folgerj, will prevail. Mr. CONGER-I shall not trespass upon the time of the Convention, having spoken on the question on the previous motion, but I wish to draw the attention of gentlemen present to this consideration, as there seems to be some expectation that upon the vote now to be called there will be a change which will make the former action of the Convention null and void. I wish to say that it would be infinitely better to reconsider the vote on the amendment of the gentleman from Erie [Mr. Hatch], as it seems to me, than to adopt the pending substitute. In adopting this substitute we do this thing: We propose a committee on the finances of this State, and we sequester from the consideration of that committee the chief property ofthe State canals, and leave the Finance Committee to look to all the other property, consisting of the alt works and things of that kind. I say that i d be infinitely preferable to move a reconsideration of the vote on the amendment offered by, the gentleman from Erie, than to undertake at this day, to perform the play of Hamlet with the Prince of Denmark left out. The question was then put on the substitute of Mr. Folger, and it was declared lost by the following vote: Ayes-Messrs. Alvord, Andrews,Archer, Axtell, Baker, Beckwith, Bickford, E. Brooks, E. P. Brooks, Case, Cheritree, Clinton, Corbett, Curtis, Duganne, C. C. Dwight, T. W. Dwight, Eddy, Ely, Farnum, *Ferry, Field, Folger, Fowler, Francis, Frank, Fuller, Gould, Gross, Hadley, Hand, Hatch, Hitchcock, Hitchman, Huntington, Krum, Lapham, A. Lawrence, Lee, LoeW, Masten, McDonald, Merrill, Merwin, More, C. E. Parker, Pond, Potter, Prindle, Prosser, Rathbun, Reynolds, Rogers, Root, Rumsey, Silvester, Sherman, Smith, Spencer, Stratton, M. I. Townsend, S. Townsend, Tucker, Van Campen, Verplanck, Wakeman, Weed.-67. Noes-Messrs. A. F. Allen, C. L. Allen, Ballard, Barker, Barto, Beadle, Beals, Bell, Bergen, E. A. Brown, W. C. Brown, Cassidy, Champlain, Chesebro, Church, Collahan, Comstock, Conger, Cooke, Daly, Develin, Endress, Flagler, Garvin, Gerry, Graves, Greeley, Hale, Hammond,. Hardenburg, Harris, Houston, Hutclins, Jarvis, Kernan, Kinney, Larremore, Law, A. R. Lawrence, M. H. Lawrence, Livingston, Lowrey, Ludington, Mattice, Merritt, Morris, Murphy, Nelson, Opdyke, Paige, Parker, President, Robertson, Roy, Russell, Schell, Seaver, Seymour, Sheldon, Strong, Tappan, Tilden, Van Cott, Wales, Wickham, Williams, Young.-67. Mr. FOLGER moved a reconsideration of the vote; and that the motion lie on the table. Mr. MERRITT demanded the ayes and noes. Mr. DEVELIN-If I understand the rules adopted yesterday, the motion to reconsider must lie upon the table until to-morrow. The PRESIDENT-The gentleman from Ontario [Mr. Folger] has himself moved that it lie upon the table. Mr. DEVELIN-But by the rules, as I understand it, that motion must lie upon the table. The PRESIDENT-The Chair has not the rules before it. Mr. DEVELIN-I rise to that point of order, sir. Mr. E. BROOKS-I also rise to a point of order. The PRESIDENT-The Chair has not the rules before it, but it thinks that the rule as adopted was different from that as reported by the Committee. Mr. DEVELIN —The rule adopted yesterday, as I understand, was the rule existing in the Senate, moved by my friend from New York [Mr. Tilden]. The PRESIDENT-The Secretary will read the rule, so we can all understand it. The Secretary proceeded to read the rule. The PRESIDENT-The motion will lie upon the table. On motion of Mr. SMITH the Convention adjourned. 77 FRIAY June 14. 1867. The Convention met at 11 A. M. Prayer was offered by Rev. W. H. ALDEN. The journal of yesterday was read by the Secretary and approved. Mr. E. BROOKS-I am charged with a memorial of The Universal Peace Society of the United States, so called, to present to this Convention. I suppose, appreciating the amiable character of its members, and the peaceable disposition of the Convention, they respectfully pray as follows: THE UNIVERSAL PEACE SOCIETY T7 the Convention assembled to amend the Constitution of the State of New York: At the meeting of the Universal Peace Society held in the city of New York during the 8th and 9th of May, 1867, it was Resolved, That through the New York members we petition for such amendments as will remove the causes of war so far as under governmental control; and, at the same time, to abolish all provisions for war itself, by not legalizing that which is inhuman, unjust and unchristian. Resolved, That Isaac Winslow, Esq., of New York City is hereby appointed to represent the New York members and report the above resolution. On behalf of the Society, ALFRED H. LOVE, President. Philadelphia, May 22, 1867. As there is no proper committee to refer a memorial like this, I move to lay it upon the table. There being no objection the memorial was laid upon the table. Mr. SILVESTER-I desire to give notice that on Wednesday next (June 19,) I will move to amend Rule 33 by adding: " Ninth. Such ladies as may be invited by any members of the Convention-but such right of invitation to cease whenever the sofas are filled." Mr. FOLGER - I call from the table the motion made by me yesterday to reconsider the vote by which the substitute offered by me to sub-divisions 9 and 10 of the report of the Committee of Sixteen was lost. The PRESIDENT-The Chair will inform the gentleman that under the rules no motion is required. The pending question is upon the substitute offered by the gentleman from Ontario [Mr. Folger,] yesterday, which was an amendment to paragraph 9 of the report of the Select Committee of sixteen. Mr. HALE-I voted yesterday, Mr. President, against the substitute which was offered by the gentleman from Ontario, [Mr. Folger,]. I voted in that way although it struck me that as an original question I should prefer the arrangement as proposed by him to that suggested by the committee, for the reason that I felt disinclined to aid in any way, or do anything to aid in disturbing or disarranging the plans suggested by it. I felt then, as I do now, that the action of that committee embodying as it does some of the ripest wisdom and legislative experience of this Convention, was entitled to the greatest respect. Upon further reflection, however, I am constrained to come to the conclusion that the change uggested by the gentleman from Ontario, [Mr. Folger], ought to be made. As I understand the effect of that change, if made, it will not be to deprive the Finance Committee of the consideration of any financial question with reference to the canals. Subdivision 9, as amended, will then give to the Finance Committee, and make it their duty, to consider "the finances of the State, the public debt, revenues, expenditures and taxation, and restrictions on the powers of the Legislature in respect thereto." In case, therefore, any question arises in relation to the canals, which is essentially a financial question, and which involves, as a leading subject, a question of finance, if I understand the effect of the motion of the gentleman from Ontario [Mr. Folger] it will still be properly referred to that committee, and will be a proper subject of investigation by it. Then the proposition is, after striking out those words to make Committee No. 10 a committee uponicanals solely. I need not say, Mr. President, that my course upon this question has no reference whatever to the merits of any proposal whatever that may be made in relation to the canals. I do not consider this question as in any way involving or affecting the merits of any such proposal. But if such proposals are to be made, after they are made upon this floor and are discussed, and after I have had an opportunity to investigate and reflect upon the subject, it will be time enough for me to form a judgment in relation to such proposal, and I certainly do not wish now to express or intimate any opinion until such investigation shall be had. Neither do I agree with the remaks of the gentleman from Rockland [Mr. Conger], that the passage of a vote of this kind will be a virtual instruction or intimation to the President of a wish on the part of this Convention that a majority of the friends of any particular line of policy should be put upon the Canal Committee. I do not understand it to be the province of this Convention to make any such intimation or suggestion to the President in regard to the duties which are confided to him. I shall, therefore, for the reason stated, vote for the reconsideration, and for the substitute proposed by the gentleman from Ontario [Mr. Folger], reserving all opinions upon any question that may arise in relation to the canals until such question comes before us properly and legitimately for discussion and action in Convention or in Committee of the Whole. Mr. GROSS-I cast my vote yesterday with a view of having a division of the Committee on Finance and Canals on the ground of expediency. I thought that altogether too much laborhad been cast upon that one committee. Since, however, the question of canal enlargement has been drawn into that discussion, I feel constrained to change my vote, not by reason of any opposition to the enlargement, but because I deem this ubstan tially, nay, pre-eminently a question of finance. In these debt accumulating and ta-ridden days we all understand and appreciate te great and valuable services rendered by our cOais, but since they are not capable of doing all the buiness or carrying all the freight of the trading community, I think we had better look at both sides of the question of enlargement. Mr. Presi 78 dent, I shall therefore change my vote to-day with upon its merits. It seems to me, sir, there are a view of having the committee composed sub- two grounds for that; one, because it is a question stantially as reported by the Committee of Six- for the State, of empire, substantially-and the teen. other because, for the whole country it is a Mr. T. W. DWIGHT-I intended, sir, to have question of nationality. Now, in regard to our made some remarks on this question yesterday; own State; I have read with great interest the but as the Convention were quite weary with dis- report of the gentleman from Erie (Mr. Hatch), cussion I refrained. I desire to say this morning and I would like to see that report answered, a word or two, in regard to the reasons which because if his statements are true, it seems to me induced me to vote for the substitute of the gen- it is of the greatest importance that the State of tleman from Ontario [Mr. Folger], although I New York should not lose this vast trade, which voted against the amendment of the gentleman from the nations, so to speak of the West (for these Erie [Mr. Hatch]. It seems to me, sir, that it is Western States are substantially nations) are not a question of finance. The gentleman from pouring into our lap., I learn from that report New York [Mr. Tilden] made a very strong im- that there is a prospect of this great trade going pression upon this Convention by putting it in in part through other States, and perthat form, and the illustration which he gave was haps going out through the St. Lawrence. in substance that, when a man commenced to I want to hear this question discussed here and build a house or do other work of that kind, his examined upon its merits, not subordinate to first point was to count the cost. I admit, sir, the question of finance, but upon the great that in cases of that kind where a person is pre- question of the empire, strength and extent of paring for himself a matter of convenience, he the State of New York. Moreover, sir, I want to seeks to count the cost; but when a man is prepar- see this question also examined as a matter of ing for himself that which is to promote his honor or nationality. We are placed by Providence directto advance the honor of his family, or to do some ly in the path of those Western States to the sea. other thing in which he feels a most deep and We hold the key of the gate of commerce; they abiding interest, then the first question will be cannot get out except they pass over the territory whether he will do the thing, and the second will of the State of New York. I think, therefore, be whether he can find the money to do it. In as a great national question, it is of importance other words, the question of convenience must to us, situated as we are and holding this posigive way, and the only question is one of possi- tion in reference to those other States, that we bility whether he can raise the funds. And so should furnish them the facilities for going to the when nations have great works to do, when they sea; they cannot furnish it by themselves; they are contending for rights, for the continuance of cannot pass over the State of New York; they their empire, or when they are defending them- say " we would like to open this great pathway selves, the question is not whether they can raise for ourselves, if we had the opportunity, but it the money conveniently, but whether they can cannot be afforded us; that would be trenching raise it at all. They make the question of finance upon the sovereignty of the State of New York." a subordinate question to the question of empire, Sir, shall we sit supinely and say that these men or to the great question of defense. Now, I am shall be driven to go out by the avenues of the of opinion that this is one of those questions which St. Lawrence and be exposed to the dangers of we have before us, and by-and-bye I shall attempt the Bay of Fundy, and that we will furnish them to show why I think it is. But before I get no means by which they shall have a free and open to that, I wish to say a word in regard to this pathway to the sea? I, sir, from an early point, I do not think that the question of finance is period of my reading was led to look harshly involved in this subject in any form. If at all, it is upon those nations who, situated upon the purely a secondary matter. What do the canals mouth of a river would not permit those of New York do for us now? As I understand who were upon the upper part of the streams they pay into the general fund $350,000 as a sink- to go out freely through that mouth to the sea. ing fund, and $200,000 for the necessary expenses I think we are in a measure situated in the of the government. Half a million of dollars, same way. These States want to pass over our sir, would be a sufficient fund out of which to in- land. They want to carry their produce in such crease and promote the enlargement of this canal a way as to reduce the expenses of transportation -the Erie canal-the estimate not exceeding and to improve the value of their lands. I think eightmillions. I, therefore, feel no difficulty on that they are entitled to it. While I do not intend to point. If it were an important thing for us to have prejudge this question at all, for I simply say the canals enlarged, the means of enlarging them these things because I want to hear a discussion could easily be obtained and conveniently obtained. on the merits, my belief is that if we should put Even, sir, if it were necessary to have a tax this question properly on its merits before this to accomplish the purpose, it would take but one- Convention, stripping it of all arbitrary rules third of a mill to pay the interest. The Comp- which are found in the present Constitution, and troller informs us in his report that the assessed let the canals be self supporting as they undoubtvalue of the property in this State is $1,500,000,- edly will be, let a sinking fund be provided to pay 000, and if we take half a million as a tax, I think the debt and the interest, and then after these are you will find it but the third ofa mill. What is that paid, let the residue of the money go into the to the State of New York, if the questiou is one general fund, I think we shall see that it is for which ought on its merits, to be carried? And the interest and pride of the State to have that now, sir, having reached that part of the subject, course adopted, and that our policy will be to reI will state why I think this question ought to go duce the tolls so as to enable the Western States / 79 to develop themselves as fully as is consistent with our prosperity, and return to us the money that we have expended. Mr. HARRIS-It was not my purpose to say anything further upon this proposition, but after the extraordinary speech which has just been made by the gentleman from Oneida [Mr. T. W. Dwight], I do not feel at liberty to let the question be taken without saying a word. He has presented the question as though this Convention were to determine whether or not the canals shall be enlarged. Sir, is that a question for us to discuss in the determination of what provisions the fundamental law of this State shall contain? Mr. T. W. DWIGHT-Will the gentleman excuse me for a moment? I intended simply to argue, as I did, for the sake of showing the importance of hearing the question upon its merits. I do not, myself, say that I shall necessarily vote for the enlargement, but I presented these points simply for the purpose of showing the importance of hearing the question in a direct and distinct form. Mr. HARRIS-It seems to me, Mr. President, in the discussion which occurred yesterday, and in the remarks of the gentleman from Oneida, [Mr. T. Dwight] that we have lost sight to some extent of the business before us as a Convention. What has the enlargement of the canals to do with the alterations to be made in the Constitution? What questions can properly come before this Convention relating to that subject? In myjudgment there are but two, and one is as to the means of carrying on this work in case the Legislature shall determine that it is expedient. It is proper enough to consider the financial article of the Constitution in regard to that subject. Now, the trouble with us is that, by the financial article of the Constitution the funds of the State are so tied up and so devoted to other purposes that the Legislature cannot control them for the purpose of carrying on the work of enlargement. Then again, the powers of the Legislature are so restricted that they cannot borrow money for the purpose of carrying on the enlargement. What is needed for that purpose is to open the financial article of the Constitution in such a way as to enable the Legislature to provide means for carrying on this work of enlargement. In my judgment that is all that this Convention can do. I am in favor of such a change in the constitution in that respect. But sir, it is a question that belongs exclusively to the Finance Committee of this Convention; it is, how shall the financial article of the Constitution be changed so as to allow the Legislature, if they shall think it expedient, to go on with this work of enlargement? Sir, it is a mistake of the gentleman to suppose that because we desire to refer this to the Committee on Finance, we are, therefore, necessarily hostile to the work of enlargement. For one, I deny that there is any such inference to be drawn from that position. The only question which this Convention has a right to consider and which is legitimate to the purposes of this Convention is, how shall the financial article of the Constitution be changed so as to allow the Legislature to secure the ways and means of providing for the enlargement? This is all that should be done in the modification of the Constitution in this respect. There is one other subject which ought to be considered by the Legislature, (and which is provided for by the 10th committee), and that is a new subject and entirely different from this. It relates to the administration of our canals. There are those who think, and I think I may say I am of that number, that the canals might be administered in such a way as to secure a larger revenue with less expense; that question may be considered by a committee, and a proposition of some modification of the Cceistitution, in that respect, may be demanded in reference to that. We have another provision in the Constitution-a very slight one-which provides for the appointment of three canal commissioners. These are elected by the people as State officers, but the Constitution contains no provision in relation to their powers and duties. It has been supposed, and I am inclined to think myself, that a change in that respect might be desirable. And with a view to that-the administration of the canals and the officers to be charged with their administration, and the powers and duties of the Legislature in reference to that subject-it has been thought fit to raise a committee. Now, sir, what more is there for this Convention to do than to consider this financial question, and then to consider this question as to the administration of the canals? And it is in reference to that that this division of the labor among these committees has been recommended. Mr. E. BROOKS -This question has assumed so much importance that I feel called upon in view of what has been said in this Chamber and out of it, at least, to give a reason for the faith which is in me, so far as relates to my vote. Sir, this subject of the canals is properly upon its merits before this Convention. I hold a document in my hand which by the last Legislature on a a full vote in the Lower House, was referred to this Convention. It relates to one of the greatest subjects which can possibly come before this body, and that is, the canals of the State. I represent, in part here, a constituency who have little interest in the canals; perhaps, less interest in them than in any other section of the State. And I remember, sir, in this connection, that though the section I represent has little material interest in the results of the canals, yet including the county of Westchester and the Southern part of the State below the county of Westchester, some four counties of the State of New York, pay one-half of the immense taxes of the State. It is proper,sir, it seems to me, afterthe discussion which has been had, to enter briefly into the merits of the question before us. I want one Cinal Committee properly and simply to discuss thoroughly every question which relates to the canals of the State, and when they bring in their report, I want to know to what extent my constituents are to be taxed for this improvement. Sir, when there was to be au extension of one of our canals, as was recently made of some 37 miles, an estimate was made that it would cost some $800,000, and the result proves that it will cost some $2,500,000; and the four counties to which I allude are to pay $1,200,000 of the tax without receiving one dollar's benefit from it. I want to know something 80 in reference to this committee; and, although I have great confidence in the Chair, I desire that this question shall be so ventilated preliminary to the appointment of these committees, that there may be some development of opinion in reference to the question itself. I think, sir, with all respect to those who may differ with me, that the Finance Committee, so-called, will have abundance of labor without interfering directly or indirectly with the canal question itself. Sir, in the Congress of the United States as the gentleman who is Chairman of the select committee [Mr. Harris], very well knows, and in the lower house it is an established rule that, there shall be a Committee on Finance, to wit, a Committee of Ways and Means, and that there shall be a Committee on Appropriations. Both committees are appointed with reference to the expenditures of public money, but they do not necessarily conflict with each other. Neither need the Canal Committee and the committee charged with the finances of the State necessarily conflict with each other. Sir, I want to know, too, just at this stage of this Convention, so far as it is proper to give any development of opinion by discussion, what may be done and what can'be done. If this enlargement of the Erie canal, which has been alluded to here, is to cost $12,000,000 as has been reported, or $10,000,000, or even $8,000,000, I should like the fact to be known, and if, upon consideration, the Canal Committee, can demonstrate by a report to this body, that the surplus revenues of September, 1866, amounting to some $4,824,000, will, as estimated, amount to $6,000,000 in 186, and amount to $7,019,000 in 1868, I want it known; and if the committee can demonstrate any such fact as that, and this canal can be enlarged without taxing the people directly or indirectly, beyond their present burdens of taxation, why then, so far as is proper at this stage of the proceedings, I am not unwilling to commit myself to the result, albeit, as I have said, the constituency which I represent have very little comparative interest in this question. Sir, I was a little surprised yesterday at the vote upon amendment moved by my friend upon my left [Mr. Hatch]. I saw no reason in the world why that should not be adopted; here was a report proposing to raise a committee in regard to the care and management of the canals and my friend moved to insert the word "improvement." I saw no sinister purpose in that amendment, and I perceive none now. I do not believe there is any. But whether there be any or not, in an intelligent body like this, I am sure we cannot suffer from the abud ance of information which may be received fro either of the two committees. The poet tells us that " Through all the dark and troubled night, The player of Ajax was for light." And we want light-light upon these intricate questions connected with the canals of this State, and, as I have said already, the Committee on inance l will have abundance of labor to perform upon these great questions relating to the property of this tate, and to the enormous taxation of this State if they can to show how this State an pay off their debt of $51,000,000, which to-day rests upon it as a State, and pay off that,e:a $85,000,000 of other debt, which rests upon the towns and counties of this State. Sir, one reason more and I will take my seat. I hold that, as a parliamentary action, the friends of any great measure have a right to be represented in the majority upon that committee which is to consider it; and after the admission of the gentleman from Ontario [Mr. Lapham] yesterday, that the select committee were not united in their action, but as I understand were very materially divided upon this precise question, it has seemed to me as an act of parliamentary justice, they have a right to have a committee representing the canals of the State. Mr. STRONG-My impression is, by the zeal which has been shown in the discussion of this question, that the object of the mover of this amendment is to give some encouragement to the idea, that we favor the enlargement, or a very considerable improvement of the canals. I am not one of those who are in favor of that project, and I will state very briefly the reasons why I cannot favor it, and as it is possible that I have not heard very distinctly, I may in the few remarks I have to make repeat some observation which has been made by those who have preceded me. I admit, sir, at the outset the project of the canal was a glorious one, and I admit furthermore that it has conferred immortal honor upon one of its principal projectors, the father of an honorable delegate in this Convention [Mr. Clinton]. At the time when the project was first brought forward, the people of that part of the country which I represent were not in favor of it. They supposed the benefits would be local, and there would be no benefit conferred upon them, and the only reason why they were led in the end to acquiesce in it, was the promise made at the time that the canal would eventually pay for itself; would pay not only the entire expense, but would also be a source of revenue after it had been paid for. There was some reason to suppose, sir, that that they was correct; but it was very soon discovered that they were laboring under a mistake. In the first place, the construction of the canal was not economically managed at the outset, and perhaps there may have been some frauds in the contracts which were made then, and undoubtedly there have been many in the contracts which have been made since; but when it was discovered that the canal, as originally constructed, would not pay the debt which was incurred in its construction, then their projeut was for an improvement of the canals, which would exhaust not only the fund which the canal had raised, but would also run the State in debt to a Tery *considerable extent. They went on, sir, until there was a law passed by the Legislature for an increased debt for the improvement and enlargement of the canal by raising some nine millions, of dollars, and which I think eventually amounted to some twelve millions. The law came before the general term of the Supreme Court in the Second district at which I was then sitting, and it was there pronounced br us unanimously, to be unconstitutional. The proposition was then changed by the Legislature and submitted to the people for their approval. The promise was made then, or at least that was the 81 very general acceptation of it, that when that matter upon any selfish consideration; I oppose improvement was made, no further improvement it upon general principles. There is no question would be called for until the canal had paid for at all but that many of the projects which have itself, and probably very many of those who found favor in the Legislature of our State have not voted in favor of it, voted upon that supposi- been of the slightest benefit to the people of tion. It seems however, that the friends of the Long Island; and whenever any proposition is canals are not satisfied with the extent to which made for the benefit of the people of Long Island this improvement is carried, but they wish to have we have always been met by the charge that it still further improvement, and we cannot tell how was local, and therefore not a proper subject for far they intend to go. There has been a general taxation. Perhaps it may be true, but proposition that the locks in the canal should that also applies to other projects which may be be very considerably improved at a very heavy carried on by the State. The canal is, in some expense, and there has also been a proposition degree itself, a local object, and there are others that the canal should be deepened in such a which have met the approbation of the Legislamanner as to enable it to transport goods much ture which are purely local. I think the case of cheaper than they can now, that is, by using the Susquehanna Railroad is one; the approprialarger vessels, and if this proposition should tion to that object is to be a subject of taxation and be carried there is still another one behind which we have got to pay our proportion of the burden. I think will be urged with equal zeal, and that is, What benefit is the Susquehanna Railroad to the that there should be a ship canal-a canal which people of Long Island? None, of course. Then, can be navigated by steam, and by ships, too, the extension of the Chenango Canal was and by vessels o'f war to the lake. I think we another project of no kind of benefit to the people should; as far as in our power, put a stop to of Suffolk County, or Long Island, or the people these propositions of improvement,. until the of the City of New York. There are other procanal has paid for itself. I am one of those jects which have been brought forward, which who are very much opposed to extending the debt were certainly of a local character, for which we of the State. At present, it is very heavy, and I have to pay. I think, therefore, with regard to do not wish it to be extended by any project any project of the kind now under consideration which may or may not be successful. The war we ought to pause; we ought not to give any has imposed a very heavy expenditure upon the encouragement to the Legislature to go on making State,-that expenditure has undoubtedly had a extravagant appropriations for the Erie Canal. We very beneficial effect, but the debt of the State is are willing the canals should be kept in order; we very large, and the taxation very heavy, and it are willing to pay our proportion of the expense bears very heavily upon the people. The propo- which is necessary in the way of taxes to keep them sition was mentioned yesterday, I think, by a in order; but we are not willing to go on and gentleman, [Mr. M. I. Townsend] that there should extend these canals, and extend them perhaps be a new system of taxation in order that without any limitation whatever. The Legislature the tax upon real estate should not be as have generally acted upon the principle that might burdensome as it is now. A proposition.was makes right, with regard to these appropriations; also made before the Legislature that personal whereas, they should have acted upon the principroperty should be estimated upon its whole ple, directly the reverse of that, that right and value, on the oath of the proprietor. To that right alone, gives might. For these reasons, I am also opposed. I do not believe it would sir, I feel inclined to oppose this reconsidhave a beneficial effect. I beeieve it would eration. I am not one of those who feel impose a great weight of taxation upon the inclined to oppose this canal system entirely, I honest portion of the community, and that am willing that all appropriations should be those who would give a fair estimate, would made, that may be necessary without incurring a have to bear an undue proportion&pf the very serious and onerous debt, and without tax. There are many people who would probably very heavy taxation upon those people who are give a false account, as we know that has been not interested. As I have remarked, the people the case with regard to the internal revenue of of Long Island have no very general interest in the United States, where many have given ac- this question, nor have the people in the southern counts, that could not be relied upon and they thus tier of counties. If the taxes are to be made heavier have thrown the taxation upon the honest portion by it, we ought to hesitate before we give any of the community. I should therefore be opposed to encouragement to the idea. anything of that kind, or any proposition of that Mr. PROSSER-I hope the motion for the rekind, if it should be brought before the Conven- consideration may prevail, and among the reasons tion. We are told that the benefits of the canal why I think it ought to, is, first, the fact that the have been very general; perhaps they have been, Finance Committee will still have under its charge but they have not been universal, and I doubt very a sufficiently large amount of work. The duty much whether the county which my friend from of considering whether or not the legislative powRockland [Mr. Conger] represents has ever been ers shall be restricted in relation to taxation, can benefited by it; and I doubt very much whether hardly fail, if the subject is wisely considered, to it has ever benefited the people of the county of consume some very considerable time of that cornSuffolk, in which I reside. I am under the mittee; and, secondly, I think this motion Aught to impression, it has created rivals in the principal prevail, because the subject-matter of the canals in landholders in the interior of the State, and has their entirety is quite sufficient to consume also a had a tendency to reduce the price of the produc- large portion of the time of any sevenor nine, or fiftions of their farms. Still, I would not oppose this teen gentlemen of this body for some weeks, 11 82 without having anything else under their charge. For these reasons, sir, I hope, without going into detail upon them, that this motion may prevail, and the substitute of the gentleman from Ontario [Mr. Folger], may also prevail. It seems to me that the gentleman from Albany [Mr. Harris], who has addressed the Convention, has undertaken somewhat to limit the powers of this Convention, so far as the fundamental law is concerned, in what they may do, and do wisely, with reference to our canals, without trenching upon or interfering with the province of the Legislature. For in the existing Constitution it is provided they shall have the disposition of the revenues entirely, and say what shall be done with them. I do not perceive, why this Convention may not come to the conclusion to legislate somewhat in the same direction for the future. I think they wisely may without going at all beyond their province. The subject matter of what may be reported from some other committee on this subject is not now properly up. When any committee shall report, if they do, that some improvement ought to be made, or some further disbursement should be made on some of our canals, or several of them, it will be time to consider the subject when that committee shall have shown the necessity for it, and that the means are forthcoming, without taxing the people of this State.. Unless both of these things can be shown, and very clearly shown, they certainly cannot have my vote for any further improvement of the canal. There has been so much said upon the subject, that I will not trespass upon the Convention any further, except to reiterate that I trust this motion may prevail and that the substitute may also be adopted. Mr. ANDREWS-Mr. President: I do not propose at this late stage of the discussion to obtrude upon this Convention any extended remarks upon the subject under consideration. But, sir, I desire to refer in the first place, to the suggestion which has been made by the honorable Chairman of the Committee [Mr. Harris]; who made this report, to the effect that it was not the proper duty or province of a convention like this, to pass upon and definitely determine as to the policy or propriety of the improvement of our canals, but that that matter, after this Convention should provide the ways and means, should be left to the discretion and control of the Legislature. Such, sir, has not been the view of the duties of Constitutional Conventions in this State in the past; because the Convention of 1846, which adopted the Constitution under which we are now living, definitely fixed and determined the policy of the enlargement of the canals, leaving it simply to the Legislature to direct as to the manner and as to the application of the moneys which may be received from the surplus revenues of the canals; and the amendment passed in 1853 extended by peremptory statement, the obligation further to enlarge not only the original canal mentioned in the Constitution, but other lateral canals, which were embraced in the provisions of that amendment. But, sir, it seems to me, aside from the precedent which the Convention of 1846 sets before this Convention, it is eminently proper that a Constitutional Conventidn like this, in rearranging and reconstructing the structure of our government, should itself determine the policy and the propriety of the extension and the improvement of our public works, upon which the glory and the prosperity of our State, in a great degree, in the past has depended. And, sir, the discussion of the merits of the question of enlargement, here, is, to my mind, entirely proper and appropriate, as a means of suggesting to this Convention the large and weighty considerations bearing upon the consideration of the subject, which is by this amendment withdrawn from the consideration of this Committee upon Finance. I, for one, have no definite and fixed views as to the policy of the State in respect to the enlargement of the Erie canal. I come here for the purpose of listening to gentlemen more intelligent than myself, upon that subject, then acting as I may, under the obligation of the oath, with such views and such light as I may have, in accordance with what seems to me to be calculated to promote the interests and the honor of our people. Now, sir, this subject, in my judgment, is weighty enough to call for its consideration by a separate and distinct committee, while if this subject shall be withdrawn from the consideration of Committee No. 9, it will leave that Committee also a vast field of labor and reflection, because it will continue to be possessed of some of the most important subjects which will come before this Convention for consideration. The subject of finance, and the related subjects of assessment and taxation, are alone of themselves sufficient to engross the attention of an able and numerous committee during a good share of the session of this body. I am for meeting this question of the enlargement of the canals fairly and squarely by this Convention, when it shall be possessed, through its proper committees, of all the light and of all the knowledge which can be furnished bearing upon the consideration of this question, and to that end it seems to me eminently proper and appropriate that a separate and distinct committee should be raised for this purpose. If my reading serves me, the question of finance was not the one upon which the determination of the question of the original construction of the canals turned. In my judgment, it is not the only question, though an imIptant one, upon which that subject should be determined here. Mr. HUTCHINS-I did not intend to say another word upon this subject. I should not have risen again had not the honorable gentleman from Onondaga [Mr. Andrews] fallen into what I think is a very grave error, and into which I fear the majority of the Convention will fall if the amendment proposed is passed. The error is this: in supposing that the Constitution of 1846 provided for the enlargement of the canals, or that the great question discussed there was the question of enlargement. Mr. President, the gentleman from Albany [Mr, Harris], the Chairman of the Committee of Sixteen, has stated the position rightly. The Constitutional Convention of 1846 found a large d6bt existing which had been cast upon the State by reason of and in consequence of the canals. The whole question that came up there was as to the mode and means for the payment of that debt. Hence the provision contained in Article 7, of the Constitution, which provided 83 that the revenues of the caVal should be applied in the future to meet that debt. It is for that reason, and that reason alone, that you cannot separate the discussion of this question from the question of finance any more than the gentleman from Oneida [Mr. T. W. Dwight] could do. He could not speak at all without considering the matter in its financial aspect. No gentleman has uttered three sentences without discussing the question in a financial point of view. No two committees can be appointed, as proposed, without their soon running in the same rut, and discussing the financial question. I think the great question which the Convention has to consider is the care and the management of the property which the State has got, as well as the enlargement of it in the future. I do not believe any gentleman will rise on the floor of this Convention, and say on his responsibility as a member of the Convention, that he is opposed to the enlargement of the canals. We are all in favor of'it. We are all agreed in the sentiments that have been uttered with so much eloquence in reference to the greatness, and the glory, and renown, and lustre that has been shed upon the State by our canal system. No one holds in more honored remembrance than myself the memory of that noble man, the father of the honorable gentleman from Erie [Mr. Clinton], to whom we are indebted for this great work of internal improvement. But, sir, unless there is proper care and management of the canals-unless the revenues that come into the coffers of the State are properly applied, the work of enlargement will not progress as gentlemen suppose it will in the future. Therefore, it is, that I desire there shall be a Committee on the Care and Management of the Canals, a committee which, if it does its duty, will have all that it can do during the session of the Convention to prepare and report, a plan by which the revenues of the State shall be honestly, fairly, and equitably distributed. It is because I believe that committee will have all it can do, if it is appointed as recommended by the Committee of Sixteen, that I sustain the report, and hope it will be adopted. And I venture the prediction that if the other course is pursued, gentlemen who vote in that way now will have occasion to regret it in the future. Mr. CURTIS-Mr. President: There can be no doubt, as the gentleman who has preceded me [Mr. Huchins] has remarked, that the question of the canals and the question of finance are intimately related. Whether the canals shall be sold, whether. they shall be enlarged or whether they shall be retained in their present dimensions, are equally questions of finance. It seems to me that he, in common with several gentlemen who have spoken, has forgotten this very important point, that the principle which has governed the report of the Committee is a principle which fully justifies voting in affirmation on the proposition offered by the gentleman from Ontario, [Mr. Folger]. Entertaining as I do, in common, I presume, with every other gentleman in the Convention, a great respect for the eminent ability of the Committee of Sixteen, I was disposed, as confidently as upon the other matters recommended by them, to support this part of their report, The Chairman of that Committee, if I am not mistaken, informed the Con vention that the report was substantially'unanimous. That of itself was of very great weight with an inexperinced member of the Convention, likeonyself. But when the gentleman from Ontario [Mr. Folger,] brought forward a proposition so radical in its character, and which in its nature was consistent with the principle of the report, I waited with curiosity to hear the defence of the report by the Chairman of the Committee [Mr. Harris] in so far as it differed from the proposition of the gentleman from Ontario, [Mr. Folger]. But I have failed throughout the whole discussion yesterday to understand the reason which persuaded the Committee of Sixteen to make the report they have submitted. I have also failed this morning to understand the conclusive character of their reasons from the observations that have fallen from the Chairman of that Committee [Mr. Harris]. The question before us is not a question of the enlargement of the canals. It is not a question of the finanoes of the State. It is simply a question of the distribution of business; a question of the convenience of the Convention, and how this Convention will most conveniently address itself to the great subject laid before it. When that is determined, we shall be prepared to take up the various subject matters before us. Now in referring to the report of the Committee of Sixteen, I find that very great and substantial interests of this State are by it referred to separate committees. No gentleman will assert that there is any greater interest which the State has than the interest of the canals; but as yet, I confess, I fail to understand why a distinction is made between the canals and the other great interests of the State that will be involved in our deliberations. That they involve matters of finance is true, but every other interest which also involves matters of finance is referred to a separate committee. That being true, and the canal being so great an interest, why should it not have a committee also? I do not in the least, in supporting the substitute of the gentleman from Ontario [Mr. Folger], commit myself to the policy of the enlargement of the canals, and no gentleman who votes intelligently on the subject would vote except with a view to the convenience of the Convention. When I am told that this is a test vote, I decline to accept the interpretation. I presume many gentlemen in the Convention, like myself, are aot yet informedc of the propriety and' justice of the various canal policies discussed in this State, and will await the report of the Committee on Canals to know whether it is proper for the canals to be enlarged, or retained, or sold. And in saying so, I presume I speak the sentiments of many gentlemen in the Convention. I shall, therefore, vote for the proposition of the gentleman from Ontario [Mr. Folger], without in the least committing myself to the question of canal enlargement. Mr. S. TOWNSEND - Mr. President: The prevailing view of this Convention will undoubtedly be based upon a desire to give to the friends of every great measure which shall come up before it, a preponderating vote in the committee to which it shall be referred. But I consider that no vote upon this question will control any gentleman's action when the Convention shall take up and act upon the subject of the enlargement of the 84 canals: At the proper time, if nobody else the United States, that the present amount of our makes the suggestion, I shall move that there be public obligations, State and National, with the also appointed a committee on the subject of amount due from towns and counties, wrings from railroads to consider the general interests of the the productive energies of the State of New York State as affected by them. The railroad interest nearly $100,000,000 per annum. Allowing the of our State amounts to over a hundred millions amount of the revenues from our canals to be of dollars, and they, to a degree, affect the revon- $4,000,000 in specie, they are a mere bagatelle ues of the canals. In the Convention of 1846, contrasted with the amount of' our annual taxation, as I know from personal observation, the con- they being as one to twenty-five of the whole sideration of these questions finally came down amount that the labor of this State has to conto a question of dollars and cents. At that time, tribute yearly. I shall cheerfully vote for the I learned from personal investigation that a barrel reconsideration, and also for the substitute offered of flour could be transported from Buffalo to by the gentleman from Ontario [Mr. Folger], as I Albany, either direct or via Oswego, for nineteen consider the question distinct from the proposition cents, exclusive of canal tolls. And it was then that was offered by the gentleman from Erie [Mr. a financial question as to how far the tolls went Hatch]. to make the freight amount to fifty cents a barrel Mr. SMITH-Mr. President: I rise, not for which was then charged. In the earlier days of the purpose of extending this discussion, but the Legislature of 1840 and 1841, as I recollect, mainly to protest against the idea- that the vote this question of the ability of railroads to carry which I gave on this question yesterday and which freight in competition with canals was discussed I may give on the question of reconsideration, shall' at length, and it was claimed then, by the railroad be considered as any pledge on my part, or any interest, that the period would arrive when prop- intimation as to the manner in which I am to erty would be transported cheaper by rail than by vote when the question shall be finally put to this any other mode. When in Europe in 1845, by Convention on the subject of canal enlargement. intercourse with a member of the British Govern- I feel in regard to it, as has been well expressed ment who was specially charged with the care of by the gentleman from Onondaga [Mr. Andrews], the railroads- that. we came here for the purpose.of discussion, Mr. VAN COTT-I rise to a question of order. to get light upon the merits of the question; and The question of railroads is in no way before this when the subject shall have been presented in the Convention. reports of the proper committees and fully disThe PRESIDENT-The point of order is well cussed, then to vote as I may feel bound to, under X taken; though I believe the gentleman did con- the solemnity of the oath that I have taken. But nect his remarks with the finances of the State. I do not, with all due respect to the experience Mr. S. TOWNSEND-The gentleman from and ability of those gentlemen who have intimated Erie [Mr. Hatch] who first introduced this ques- that the committee to be appointed here must be has produced a pamphlet, the authorship of which favorable to any particular measure, perceive that is attributed to him, in which he admits that the such an idea is applicable here. It seems to me, present capacity of the Erie Canal is much more that in this Convention we have no measures in than adequate for the business that has been pre- the sense in which that term is used in the Legissented to it. If I have not correctly quoted his lature. Permit me to call the attention of the Constatement in this regard, the gentleman will correct vention for one moment to the language used by the me. Therefore, any action of this body looking Committee at the commencement of their report. toward to the enlargement of the Erie canal, should They say that, "while in their opinion, there are refer to a distant future. If we should go on with some, perhaps many, parts of the Constitution this consideration (without any regard to the reso- which need no alteration, yet, as the whole fabric lution which I introduced as to whether this Con- of the fundamental law of the State has been vention has been constitutionally called or not. committed to this Convention, with instructions to and it appears to be the sentiment of the Conven- examine it and propose for the consideration of tion that it has been), I shall, at some future the people such amendments as it may be thought day, propose that the restriction in the present to require, the Committee have deemed it their Constitution upon sale of the canals, shall be duty to recommend the examination of all the modified or removed. If this whole subject shall provisions of the Constitution by appropriate combe referred to a canal committee, I trust they mittees." This does assume that there may be no will institute a correspondence with officials in the investigation needed in regard to many matters, State of Pennsylvania, which State has sold its I undbrstand the object of appointing committees canals for fifteen millions of dollars, to ascertain to be merely to arrange business for the conwhat is. the solid judgment of the community venience of the action of this body. Whether there with reference to that transaction. The they will recommend action in any particular sale of our canals certainly has got one feature direction or not we cannot now anticipate. Therewhich commends itself, and that is, it would fore, it seems to me, it should not be assumed by relieve the 'State of the responsibility of pat- our vote on this question, that we vote in favor or ronage, which is always an injurious element against any particular policy; nor does it seem to in the exercise of a legitimate State Government. me that the committees here to be appointed are I agree with all that has been said by the gentle- to be appointed with reference to the views of its man from Rockland [Mr. Conger], as to the immen- members upon any particular questions of policy sity of our State debt and its gigantic proportions. that may come before this Convention, for I think I agree with the gentleman, that allowing $500,- we are not to know, and cannot know at this stage 000,000 as our proportion of the indebtedness of of our proceedings, what questions may be pre 85 sented, or in what form they may be presented, or No. 10. Then, there is a provision in the Constituhow we may be inclined to act upon them when tion relating to the finances of the State, as conthey come before this Convention. nected with the canals. And here we have in subMr. VAN COTT-I quite agree with the gen- division 9, a committee which is to consider the tleman from Richmond [Mr. Curtis], that the finances of the State. Now, what is the differquestion involved in this report and in the pro- ence between members of the Convention on posed substitute, is a question of the convenience the.subject of the canals? The discussion has of the Convention and the distribution of its proceeded upon the assumption that there is business. If the gentlemen who support the sub- some party in the State opposed to the enlargestitute had been contented to confine the discussion ment of the canals. Sir, if there is any such here to that question, I should have been quite party in this State, I have never heard of it. satisfied with it, and would have been very If there is any such party in this Convention, willing to be convinced that a different distribu- I have yet to see the evidence of it. tion from that recommended by the committee Some one, it is said, in Plutarch, if I remember was required by the convenience of the Conven- rightly, once indulged in a long and tedious tion. But the debate which has taken place for panegyric of Aristides. The person who was its a large part of two days has gone largely beyond recipient, naturally asked the question, " What the question propounded by the gentleman from have I said against Aristides that I should be Richmond [Mr. Curtis]. I would have been very made to listen to a long discourse in his praise?" glad if the gentleman himself, after having so Sir, what has the Committee of Sixteen and what lucidly stated what the real question was, had has any one in this Convention said against the undertaken with the same lucidity of expression general proposition of a canal enlargement?- WAh t to have shown how the convenience of the New Yorker, native born or adopted, would lay Convention inl the distribution of its business his hand upon the great canal interest of this could be facilitated by the proposed substitute. State to mar it? What citizen of New York, naThe burden of proof certainly is upon him, and tive or adopted would arrest the progress of that upon others who agree with him in support of the great improvement? Sir, I believe there is no substitute, to show that the committee, which has man in this Convention who will have brass had this subject under consideration, and which enough in his face to stand up on this floor and has considered the question of distribution among express his disapproval of an enlargement of the the committees with reference to this question of canals. There is no such party, and I believe convenience, have misconceived on that subject, there is no such member of this Convention. and to show that the change is required by the What, sir, is the question before the peoconvenience of the Convention. Sir, all that we ple of this State, and what will be the have had on this subject in the dropping fire of question before this Convention? Purely debate for many hours, has been the incidental re- a financial question-purely a question of the marks that the subjects committed by sub-division ability to enlarge the canals-purely a question 9 to a committee of sixteen members would be of time and mode. When shall we be able? How quite beyond the powers of such a committee to shall we-be able? Through what financial resourconsider and properly dispose of; that although it is ces or effort or expedient shall we be able to double in force to the average number of mem- enlarge our canals? Now, sir, it seems to me bers of the other committees, yet they quite trans- that very serious injustice has been done to the cend.the capacity of any such committee, and Committee of Sixteen, upon this subject, in the therefore the subject should be divided and referred course of the debate on this and the previous day, to two committees. That is all that has been said not so much from what has been said, as from on the subject of convenience. On that subject, what is to be implied from the course of debate. let me say that, the question is whether the sub- An attempt has been made to array the friends of jects in sub-division 9 are related to each other so the canals against the report of the committee, that they are properly considered together, or are upon the assumption that the Committee of they so distinct that they may be more con- Sixteen are opposed to the canals, and have veniently considered separate from each other? therefore made a provision in the recommendNow what are the subjects? They are the ation for standing committees somehow or other, revenues of the State; the debt of the State; the to suppress the subject of the canals- and finances of the State and the canals are specifically that the friends of the canals and the canal internamed, because they are supposed to have a very ests would be indicated in this vote, ranging close relation to this general subject of finance for themselves in opposition to the recommendawhich this committee is to be raised. Now what tions of the committee. Sir, that assumption is relation has the canals to the finances-of the State? utterly without foundation. I happened to be What are the real questions in difference between a member of that committee, and I made it my those who support the report of the Committee of business, as I thought it my duty, before going Sixteen, and those who support the substitute into the committee,. to make a very careful analysis proposed. I conceive, Sir, that the two subjects of the Constitution, to see the subjects there to be constitute but one question before this Convention. dealt with by the Convention, and to prepare, as The same principle which underlies this report we did most of the members of the committee, a profind in the Constitution itself. There is one pro- gramme of committees to be recommended to vision in the Constitution relating to the State this body; and. it was a part of my programme, officers who have the care and management of the as it was a part of the programme of other gentlecanals, and here the management of the canals is mento constitute a distinct committee on the subject referred to a distinct committee under subdivision of the canals. But I was convinced, by my col 86 leagues in the committee, that such a distinct committee, except for the management of the canals, was not proper; that the only question in reference to the canals, outside of their care and management, was the question of enlargement, and that their enlargement was a topic of finance, and it was therefore thought proper to bring the subject of the canals, except as to their care and management, and the subject of finance together; and that was the ground-the intimate relations of the two subjects-which induced the recommendation that they go to a single committee. I say that, looking upon this subject as a matter of convenience, and a proper distribution of the business, it is purely a question of finance. If gentlemen will discriminate-if they will attend to what has been carefully said upon the floorthey will see that members have not been able to approach the subject of enlarging the canals without discussing the financial question. My friend the professor, [Mr. T. W. Divight] in referring to the subject, at once launched out upon the question of finance and the ability of the State to go on with that work. He suggested that $300,000 of the surplus revenues that went to the general fund, and $250,000 that went to the support of the State government, could be taken for the enlargement. He says if you take this surplus revenue devoted to those objects, and appropriate it to the enlargement of the canals, you may complete the enlargement in a little while. But does not the gentleman see that when he has taken $300,000 from the general fund and $250,000 from the support of the government, a new source of revenue must be opened to supply the $300,000 to the general fund and $250,000 for the support of the State government? Does not the gentleman see that the moment he touches the subject he gets upon financial ground, and that he creates a necessity for other sources of revenue, the moment he undertakes to divert the surplus revenues of the canals? Does he'not see that if he diverts those sums from those objects, he is obliged to suggest new sources whence to supply the deficiency? Therefore, it is, that that the ways and means for enlarging the canals, are part and parcel of the general question of the financial resources of the State. The State debt, its revenues, its financial ability in the way of credit, the ability of the State to raise revenues by way of taxation-all these are a part of the subject of finance. The whole subject is complicated. We shall never deal with the subject of enlargement without treating the whole subject of finance as a unity. Therefore, Mr. President, it was that the committee brought these two subjects together. And now, I would ask my friends on the other side, how they propose to deal with this subject of canals? There are two ways of dealing with it. There may be two classes of opinion on the subject. I think there are from what I have seen. One is to enlarge the canals as soon as we can-as soon as we are able to do it, and the other is a thick and thin unconditional enlargement of the canals. And if the gentlemen who support this amendment will avow themselves so that we can understand what they mean by taking away this subject of the enlargement from the subject of finance, so that it may be considered abstractly as a thing very desirable, as fruit of which we may eat and grow wise -if they will present the subject in that way, very well; we will understand them. But if they mean what we mean, that we are to enlarge the canal as soon as we are able to enlarge it, and will consider with us what is our ability to enlarge it, then we are united on the subject of the canal enlargement. I would like to know their convictions. I submit that we cannot separate the question of enlargement from the question bf ways and means. It is like the question of the enlargement of the family. I think that when you come to the question of the enlargement of the family, the husband and wife must consider it together. [Laughter.] I think that the physiologist and doctor would tell us that it would be very convenient in attending to the distribution of the subject. [Laughter]. Finances are the forces of the State by which it builds its works, and they cannot be separated from it. The only question is whether we shall take up the subject in a fragmentary manner and get it into muddle* and confusion, or whether a committee, double in force, consisting of sixteen members, shall deal with it as a unity, and report their conclusions to the Convention for its judgment. Mr. M. I. TOWNSEND-The gentleman from Kings [Mr. Van Cott], who has just sat down, has succeeded in finding a grievance. It is a grievance that the members of this Convention should differ with a committee of the Convention wh6 have made a report. Mr. VAN COTT-I beg to assure the gentleman that he is utterly mistaken so far as I am concerned. Mr. M. I. TOWNSEND-I do not thus understand my duty in this Convention. With all deference to this committee or any other committee, that shall make a report to this body, I suppose it is my duty to go according to my own convictions, the report of the committee notwithstanding. Now, sir, I see that gentlemen upon this floor are anxious to close this debate. I sympathize with them in feeling that the debate has been very considerably protracted. But, sir, I cannot sit still and hear the gentleman from Kings [Mr. Van Cott] charge substantially upon me and those who vote with me, a determination to vote through thick and thin for the enlargement of the canals without reference to the financial position of the State. It seems to me to be forgotten by the gentleman that the Con, stitution is designed to stand more days than the days of the year, and that the Constitution which we shall frame, if it shall be adopted by the people of the State, will last for at least twenty years in all probability, and that the instrument which we form should be so formed as to meet the exigencies that are likely to arise during that period. Now the gentleman has told us substantially that this is a mere financial question. I protest that it is not a mere financial question. Were it a mere financial question we might rest upon the figures called for by the motion of the gentleman from Westchester [Mr. Greeley], and which will show every penny of the receipts, and every penny of the disbursements, not only 87 for the Erie canal, but for the lateral canals to talk to me on that subject. I want it in black when they shall be presented to this body. But, and white in the report of some committee. I sir, we need something more. I trust we shall know that there has been but just postponed now, have something in this body from some com- by the National Congress, a proposition to make a mittee. The gentleman says that every man in canal around the Falls of Niagara, —a ship canal. the city of New York is in favor of the enlarge- I want to know what effect such a measure as that ment of the Erie canal. I am happy to hear it would have upon the prosperity of this State-not stated, because from remarks that have been upon the receipts and disbursements of this State, made in debate here, I began. to fear, at least, but upon its wealth and prosperity and upon the that there was a feeling of modified favor felt wealth and prosperity of its commercial capital. towards the canals in the minds of some gen- I want to know if that project fails, what chance tiemen representing that part of the State. Now, there is that the commerce of the great West will sir, I protest here that no vote cast upon this sub- be sent down through the St. Lawrence to the ject shall commit me, at this stage of our deliber- ocean; and if the commerce of the West is neither ations, either in favor of an enlargement of the to seek the St. Lawrence nor seek the lower lakes canal, or in favor of any particular mode of en- by way of a ship canal around the Falls of Nilargement. Sir, if we are to have an enlargement agara, I want to know whether that energetic of the canal, we ought to know the reason why. people will not put their shoulders to the wheel, My mind has not reached the advanced stage of the and again push theii way to the Gulf of Mexico mind of the gentleman from Albany [Mr. Harris]. as in the Providence of God we have seen them He tells us that the object of this report was for the do once, side by side with the sons of New York, purpose of specially providing means for the en- over the necks of a rebellious people. I want to largement of the canal, and that this measure know something on this subject. But, forsooth, ought to go to the Committee on Finance. I want to this body is asked to treat it as a matter of dollars know what reasons there are for the enlargement and cents,-as a question of finance alone. Of of the canals. I want to know what reasons course it will be a financial question in the end. there are why the canal should not be enlarged: The question will come up whether we have the I want to know the influence of the canals upon ability to do it-but the question first to be convarious portions of this State, and to that end I sidered is whether the canal should be enlarged want a 'report from some committee. If it be at all. Is it worth making the effort? Is it of true, as has been intimated, that the great corm- sufficient importance to incur the expense, to vote mercial metropolis has no such interest in this for the necessary taxation or incur the liability question, and that the taxes drawn from that needful to do it. The question of the immetropolis and vicinity are a mere burden upon portance of these canals is a question of their that part of the State, I want to know it. I influence. It has been said to me this morning want to know from somebody whether these float- in speaking of the influence of the canals that in ing cities, which I see upon the Hudson river, the Fall of 1866, the amount realized for the moving down with so much momentum toward apples raised in the county of Orleans was the commercial capital, are carrying pesti- more than the entire value of the fee simple lence to New York, or are carrying a blight upon of the land in that county, when the Erie its prosperity, or whether they do favorably affect canal was constructed through it. I want to its interests. If it. be true that the mercantile inter- know some of these facts. When the gentleman ests of the city of New York have been stimu- from Suffolk [Mr. Strong,] said that he did not lated by our canal system, then, sir, I want to consider the Southern tier of counties interested know whether the building up of that city has in the canals, he failed to remember that we have caused an increase in the wealth of the county of something more than the Erie canal. The gentleRichmond, from which the gentleman [Mr. E. man forgot that we have lateral canals which Brooks] comes who has spoken here upon this extend from the Erie canal and ramify to the Sousubject, and whether any of its growth and pros- them tier, and add value to the lands there and perity has crawled out upon the shores of the increase its commercial prosperity. If the gentlecounty of Suffolk, and whether with the taxation man will go and see the business that is done on upon property in the county of Suffolk there has those lateral canals, he will come to the conclusion been no increase in its prosperity by reason of that the Southern tier of counties is interested. the creation of the Erie canal. I want some Sir, we have to-day between eight and nine hundreport upon that subject. And, sir, there is red miles of canals. But forsooth, eight or nine another subject on which I want a report. I hundred miles of canals, better than any country understand sir, that in the North west there is on the habitable globe possesses, seem not to.a select people who have gone forth from our be of sufficient importance to justify the raising loins, aye,. very select in intelligence and enter- of a committee for the consideration of that valuable prise, who are represented in our National Con- interest to the State. Sir, I do not so understand gress side by side with the people of the State of the statemanship that should control this State. New York. The twelve millions of people now It was not the feeling of our fathers, and it there, in the next census, will hold a preponderat- should not, in my opinion, be the feeling to-day. ing power as against us that will be overwhelming. It is an interest vital to the continued prosperity I want to know what will be the effect upon the of our State. At any rate, we should like to have interests of the State of New York, if we should a committee on this subject. I differ with the feel ourselves constrained to stand still and leave gen tlemanfrom Erie [Mr. Verplanck], as to the those men to find by the best means in their duty of the Chair to appoint a committee in favor power a highway to the ocean. I want some one of any particular project. I hope if such a com 88 mittee is ordered it will be a committee of good, substantial, intelligent and thinking men, who shall give us a right judgment from every portion of the State on our canals. Then I shall hold myself at liberty to vote or not, for any project which may be suggested. Upon the coming in of such a report in connection with the statistics to be furnished upon the motion of the gentleman from Westchester [Mr. Greeley], I shall then be prepared to take such action as I think the interests of the State demand. Mr. TILDEN — Without' intending. to enter further into this debate, I wish simply to say, through the Chair, to the gentleman from Rensselaer [Mr. M. L Townsend], that we of the city of New York. who derive our food, and those immense shipments which we make to Europe through the Erie canal, suppose that we have as much interest in any question relating to the sources of its prosperity, as the people of Rensselaer county, who see it pass by their residences as it goes down on the way. And further, that we have as much interest as do the people of Buffalo, who charge about two cents per bushel for the transhipment of wheat at that city. [Laughter.] And, sir, we do not think that we are entirely unacquainted with the great Northwest, of which the gentleman from Rensselaer [Mr. M. I. Townsend], speaks so parthetically, who are our largest customers, and with whom we hold the most intimate relations. I will simply add the suggestion that, the idea which has raised the indignation of my friend from Rensselaer, that New York and vicinity has no interest in the canal proceeds, not from the city of New York, but rather from the county of Richmond, and the gentleman who presented it [Mr. E. Brooks], gave it as a reason I suppose, logically considered, for coming to the same conclusion with the gentleman from Rensselaer. [Cries of question]. Mr. HATCH-Mr. President, I only want to say a word in reply to the gentleman from New York [Mr. Tilden], it is ill becoming in him to make this fling at Buffalo, when it is notorious that the railroads in Illinois in which he is largely interested as stockholder and director, charge more for carrying grain a few hundred miles to Chicago for shipment, than is charged for carrying the same grain from Chicago to New York through the lakes and New York canals, 1500 miles, including transhipment at Buffalo. [Laughter.] The question was then put on the motion of Mr. Folger to reconsider the vote by which the substitute offered by him was declared lost, and the motion prevailed by the following vote: Ayes. —Messrs. Alvord, Andrews, Armstrong, Axtell, Beckwith, Bickford, E. Brooks, E. P. Brooks, Case, Cheritree, Clinton, Corbett, Curtis, Duganne, C. C. Dwight, T. W. Dwight, Eddy, Ely, Farnum, Ferry, Field, Folger, Fowler, Francis, Frank, Fuller, Hadley, Hale, Hammond, Hand, Hatch, Hitchcock, Huntington, Ketcham, Krum, Lapham, A. Lawrence, M. H. Lawrence, Lee, Masten, McDonald, Merrill, More, Pond, Potter, Prindle, Prosser, Rathbun, Reynolds, Root, Rumsey, Silvester, Sherman, Smith, Spencer, M. I. Townsend, S. Townsend, Van Campen, Verplanck, Wakeman, Weed, Williams-62. Noes.-Messrs. A. F. Allen, C. L. Allen, Barker, Beadle, Beals, Bell, Bergen, E. A. Brown, W. C. Brown, Cassidy, Champlain, Chesebro, Church, Clark, Cochran, Colahan, Comstock, Conger, Cooke, Corning, Daly, Flagler, Garvin, Gerry, Graves, Greeley, Gross, Hardenburgh, Harris, Houston, Hutchins, Kernan, Kinney, Larremore, Law, Livingston, Lowrey, Ludington, Mattice; Merritt, Miller, Morris, Nelson, Opdyke, Paige, A. J. Parker, President, Robertson, Roy, A. D. Russell, L. W. Russell, Schell, Schumaker, Seaver, SeyL mour, Strong, Tilden, Van Cott, Wales, Wickham, Young —61. The President then announced the question to be on the substitute offered by Mr. Folger to subdivision 9 of the report. The question was put on the substitute, and.it was declared to be adopted. The SECRETARY then proceeded to read subdivision No. 10. Mr. S. TOWNSEND moved to insert after the word " canals" the word "railroads." The PRESIDENT -The Chair was perhaps in error in stating the question. The motion of the gentleman from Ontario, was to substitute the proposition he offered for both subdivisions 9 and 10. Mr. FOLGER- The Chair is right. The subtitute was intended for both subdivisions 9 and 10. The question was then put on the substitute offered by Mr. Folger for subdivisions 9-and 10, and it was declared adopted. The question then recurred on subdivisions 9 and 10 as amended, and they were declared adopted. The SECRETARY then proceeded to read subdivisions 11, 12 and 13 of the report, and there being no amendments offered thereto, they were declared adopted. The SECRETARY then proceeded to read subdivision 14. Mr. STRATTON offered the following amendment: After the word " than " insert the word *' railroads," so that it will read, "on corporations other than railroads, municipal, banking, and insurances." I propose to follow this up by a new sub-division providing for a committee on railroad corporations by themselves. They are'now put in here with all other corporations; whereas they should form a distinct and separate subject of consideration by themselves. I think any committee of this Convention will find all they want to do, and work for their best powers in defining the powers and duties of the Legislature in relation to railroad corporations. Mr. HARRIS-I hope that amendment will not prevail. It will be seen there is already excepted from the duties of this committee, municipal corporations, banking corporations and insurance corporations. Now, it seems to me that the committee will have no more than their proper share of work if they are allowed to consider the subject of railroad corporations with the other corporations that may be the subject of consideration. I hope, therefore, this amendment will not prevail; that we will not have a separate committee on railroad corporations. Mr. STRATTON —I cannot agree with the honorable gentleman from Albany [Mr. Harris], 89 that this committee, the omnium gatherum committee upon all the balance of corporations, are to have very little to do. Why, sir, the Legislature of this State have about one-quarter of the time of their whole session consumed on this question of railroad corporations, and nine-tenths of all the hard things that are said against our Legislature are said in relation to questions growing out of the applications here for railroad corporations, doubtless unadvisedly said against our legislators, but at the same time they are said; and if there is corruption in the Legislature of this State; if there is money used for any purpose here to affect legislation, that money is raised in the interest of railroad corporations. It is the duty of this Convention to provide some way by which the Legislature of this State shall not be tempted, even upon the subject of applications for railroad corporations. The question was then put on the amendment offered by Mr. Stratton, and it was declared lost. There being no further amendments, paragraph 14 was declared adopted. The SECRETARY then proceeded to read paragraph 15. Mr. GOULD —The subject of State prisons is certainly one which is very interesting to the people of the State, and it is obvious that it is only a part of a whole series of provisions intended for the security of life and property. I intend to propose an amendment to this paragraph which shall cover all collateral subjects and bring them before the view of the committee. It is obvious, sir, that we have also a system of penitentiaries in this State, and in those penitentiaries there are as many persons incarcerated as there are in the State prisons-between two and three thousand persons in all. Then there are our common jails. There are between seventy or eighty thousand persons passing through our jails every year. Then again, sir, I believe it is very possible so to organize the social forces of the State, that we may be able to prevent a great mass of crime, if the frame work and foundation for such legislation shall be laid in the fundamental law of the State, and, therefore, with the view of bringing in this whole important subject which, as is in no other part of this distribution met at all, I offer the following amendment: Amend subdivision 15 by striking out the words "on State Prisons," and inserting in lieu thereof the words " on the prevention and punishment of crime." Mr. VAN CAMPEN moved to amend the proposed substitute so as to read, " on S'Ate prisons and the prevention and punishment of crime." Mr. GOULD-I accept the amendment. The question was then put on the amendment of Mr. Gould as modified, and it was declared adopted. There being no further amendments, paragraph 15 was declared adopted. The SECRETARY then proceeded to read paragraphs Nos. 16, 17 and 18, and there being no objection thereto. they were declared adopted. The SECRETARY then proceeded to read pargraph 19. Mr. E. BROOKS-I move to insert as subdivision 19 a new Committee on charitable bequests. 12 Sir, I think the Convention, if they will reflect a moment upon the very large amount of money appropriated in this State for charities will see the propriety of a committee like this. I think the Chairman of the Committee of Sixteen if he will recall for a moment the large amount of money we expend from year to year for the deaf and dumb, blind, insane and idiotic, and for the new charitable institutions which are instituted at Ovid and at Poughkeepsie on the Hudson, and various other charities, he will see the propriety of having a separate' committee on this subject. Let me read from the book before me the amount of money that has been expended in the State for the last ten years. For the Deaf and Dumb Institution,...... $1,000,000 00 For the Blind, New York,............... 514,063 31 Blind, chapter 587, Laws of 1865,.... — 31,637 59 Society for the Reformation of Juvenile Delinquents, New York,................ 689,691 69 House of Refuge, Western New York,.... 570,550 31 Lunatic Asylum,......................... 523,108 38 Idiot Asylum, -...................... 344,904 56 Willard Asylum for the Insane,........... 65,262 31 Hospitals and other Charitable Institutions................................... 960,862 88 Orphan Asylums........................... 532, 418 55 Dispensaries and Infirmaries,........ 128,775 00 Support of Foreign Poor in New York and other counties,......................... 56,000 00 Now, sir, it seems to me there is not a more important subject. for the consideration of the Convention, among the many subjects that will come up for consideration, than the subject of charitable bequests, and I hope that the suggestion for such a committee will meet with the approval of the Chairman of the Committee of Sixteen, [Mr. Harris]. The PRESIDENT-What is the amendment of the gentleman from Richmond, [Mr. E. Brooks]. Mr. E. BROOKS-It is to amend subdivision 19, so that it will provide for a Committee on Charitable bequests, and let the present subdivision 19 be subdivision 20. Mr. HARRIS-I concur with the gentleman from Richmond [Mr. E. Brooks] in the importance of the subject to which he has referred. It cannot be exceeded in importance by any other thing, perhaps, connected with human welfare. But I am at a loss to conceive how the Constitutional Convention has anything to do with it. What constitutional provision can we make in reference to these great charities? It seems to me it is a subject we have nothing to do with in framing a constitution, and that is the objection I have to it. It is not within the province of our duty. Mr. E. BROOKS-One word in reply to the gentleman from Albany [Mr. Harris]. It certainly is in our power to- provide a State Board, to take control of these institutions. We impose upon the Legislature the performance of certain duties in reference to these great charities; we certainly are not trenching upon the Legislature in doing service like this. As I have said already, and as the 'Chairman of the Committee concedes, it is a subject of vast importance. You have got a Committee on State prisons and the prevention of crime. It seems to me as much a duty of this Convention to have a committee on the great charities of this State as to have a committee on State prisons-at least that is my judgment. 90 Mr. BELL-I simply rise to say that I entirely approve of the object of this amendment. My experience has convinced me that it is a subject which should be taken into consideration and thoroughly reviewed by a proper committee of this Convention. The amounts that we have appropriated yearly to these charitable and eleemosynary institutions are very considerable and they are increasing rapidly from year to year. It is a very nice question to know exactly how far the State should go in support of public charities, and what should be reqdired of the particular friends of these institutions and of the counties in which they are located. I had it in my mind to offer a proposition providing for a committee of that kind, but inasmuch as it has been offered by the gentleman from Richmond [Mr. E. Brooks], I shall heartily support it. Mr. T.'W. DWIGHT-In one of the early days of our session, I offered a resolution upon this subject, that there should be a standing committee appointed to take into consideration the superintendence and visitation of our charitable institutions. What led me to offer that resolution were circumstances like these: It is well known that these charitable bequests are regarded in the law as public uses, and are the only property which are now to be held in perpetuity. They, therefore, are eminently fit for the consideration of a body which has a regard to public interests. Now, sir, this subject has excited vast interest in other countries as well as in our own. In England it became necessary in the year 1820 to take into consideration the whole subject of charitable institutions. The reports at that time on the subject which were made by the commissioners appointed, embraced nearly forty large folio volumes. And the commissioners found it necessary to go to each point in the country where charitable institutions existed, and to examine into their condition and history, and report upon them. The investigation was made, and the results excited so much interest that a permanent Board of Commissioners was appointed. Sir, in the course of time, this same class ot questions has arisen in this country, and I believe that we shall soon find the same difficulties here. These institutions being perpetual, there will, naturally, be committed breaches of trust. There should be.suth a care and control over trust funds that the funds shall be sacredly applied to the objects for which they were Jbestowed. There is another consideration which belongs here. Gentlemen of the legal profession know that the whole doctrine of charities in the State of New York is now involved in uncertainty. It is not now clear whether a person can give by will, for example, to trustees, any property to be held for charitable uses. It is even doubtful whether Mr. Peabody could, in the State of New York, have made a gift to trustees, or whether the Sanitary Commission or Christian Commission could have held funds under the laws of this State for the praiseworthy purposes for which they were bestowed; or whether if one of them had died his interest in the property would not have gone to his own personal representatives. Now, it seems to me, that this subject should be put under regulation and control, and that the State should say whether they will permit these charitable gifts to be made or not. Here is another consideration, sir, which is appropriate here. There was a bill presented last winter in the Legislature providing that any person who chose to make a gift for a charitable purpose, and it should be considered lawful by a Judge of the Supreme Court, should be assured that it was secured from loss by a payment of it into the State Treasury, so that the State could take the funds and pay over the interest from time to time for the support of the charitable object. Whether that is a proper course to pursue or not, I do not know. But, sir, it certainly is a question worthy of consideration. This point, in my opinion, ought to be brought before this Convention, whether it is not necessary that the State should take control of these institutions. Another point which is exciting a great deal of interest is the bestowal of charitable funds upon corporations, and the limitation of 'that right, and the proper visitation or care of the funds after such bestowal has been made. It seems to me that there are abundant reasons upon these various grounds why there should be such an investigation as is called for by the proposition of the gentleman from Richmond [Mr. E. Brooks]. A friend of mine in this Convention, Judge Comstock, collated, several years ago, with great fullness, a list of the corporations in this State. of a charitable nature. I am sure it would utterly astonish the members of this Convention if that document should be read before them to see the number of charitable institutions we have in operation and the importance of their objects, and the amount of funds there is under their control. Yet they are under no supervision, under no care. They are left to manage the funds as they please, and there were complaints last winter in a New York paper that the funds of a certain charitable institution were perverted. I do not say anything in reference to the correctness of the statement; but it was published as a fact, that the funds of an institution ostensibly for the support and care of the orphans of soldiers, were really used for the private purposes of the party who had charge of the institution. That ought to be looked into, and the time has come in this State for the organization of some authority which shall take charge of the charitable institutions, and see that they carry out the provisions for which they were designed. Mr. E. BROOKS-I would like to change the phraseology of my amendment. I would suggest that the subdivision I propose should read "on Public Charities." Mr. HALE-I wish merely to inquire of the gentleman from Richmond [Mr. E. Brooks] whether the subject suggested by him does not fall within the province of Committee No. 3, as provided for by the Committee of Sixteen " on the powers and duties of the Legislature except as to matters otherwise referred." I do not know that there is any objection to having a distinct committee on the subject. I suppose that probably the idea of the Committee of Sixteen was that this subject would fall within the purview of this committee. Mr. STRONG-I wish to make a remark on the subject of this motion.' The resolution of the gentleman is not broad enough, if it is passed, to meet 91 the exigencies of the occasion. It should be a committee on charitable relations, which would include bequests of personal property and devises of real estate. I suppose the case of Williams against Williams which was instituted by myself when at the bar, was the first that went before the Court of Appeals, and in that case it was decided that the statute did not apply to charitable bequests, and it was intimated that the statute of uses and trusts did not apply to devises of real estate, and that the statute to prevent perpetuity did not apply. But since that time, there have been two decisions of the Court of Appeals overruling the doctrine in the case of Williams against Williams, and the law is now settled, and does not require any constitutional provision. Mr. MASTEN-I understand the law to be well settled now that the only way in which a public charity can be created in perpetuity, is by the creation of a corporation under authority of some legislative act. I therefore would prefer the language suggested in the resolution offered by the gentleman from Oneida [Mr. T. W. Dwight,] which would include the creation and visitation of public and private charities. Mr. E. BROOKS-I think the modification covers the whole subject, so far as it is necessary for the consideration of a committee. I have no objection to any amendment which will accomplish the object in view. It seems to me that the words, "'public charities" do not accomplish that object. I accept "charities" instead of public charities, That seems to cover everything that I have in view. Mr. BELL-It occurs to me, after all, that it would be better to amend by having it "charities and charitable institutions." Would not that accomplish the object? I would ask the mover to amend by substituting those words. Mr. BROOKS-I assent to the modification. The question was then put on the amendment, and it was declared carried. Mr. DUGANNE-irs espectfully call from the table the resolution which I introduced yesterday. The PRESIDENT-The motion of the gentleman is not now in order. Mr. DUGANNE-Then I offer it as an additional committee to take the place of Committee No. 19-an additional committee in industrial interests, to which shall be referred all memorials, petitions, and other matters appertaining to the rights and claims of labor. The PRESIDENT-This is hardly germane to the substitute offered by the gentleman from Richmond, [Mr. E. Brooks.] It is new matter. Mr. DUGANNE-I beg leave to ask if it cannot be introduced as an amendment to the rule? The PRESIDENT-The Chair holds that it can. Mr. E. BROOKS-I hope that the gentleman will not mix up his proposition with that which refers to public charities. The question was then put on the amendment of Mr. Duganne, and it was declared lost. The question then recurred on the adoption of the 19th rule as amended, and it was declared adopted. Mr. DUGANNE-I now move that a new committee be authorized on industrial interests to which shall be referred all memorials, petitions and other matters appertaining to the rights and claims of labor. Mr. HARRIS-I hope that the proposition will not be adopted. There is no occasion, in my judgment, for such a committee. If my friend from New York [Mr. Duganne] has any particular views on the subject, any proposition he has to present may be referred to the Committee on the Bill of Rights. That committee will need something to do. If he has any particular views on the subject of the rights of labor, let them go to that committee. I hope tfat course will be taken. Mr. DUGANNE-I have no particular views, nor do I intend on my own volition to advance any particular views on the rights or claims of labor. But I do respectfully submit that the industrial interests of this State are to be considered as of as much importance in a Convention of the people as any private corporation or banking institution, or any other association or interest than that which is strictly popular. I have considered that it was best to wait Until the last to offer this amendment, although in my estimation it is one of the first interests. The industrial interests of the State cover very wide grounds. I think they cover a great many movements which gentlemen are well aware of now in progress. We shall, probably, before we get through with our sessions, be in receipt of many communications with regard to the subject of labor, and its rights, and it is no more than respectful to the interests which I intended to be represented by that committee that such a committee should be appointed, to which shall be referred all respectful communications on the subject of labor, and its claims and rights. I certainly hope the subject will not be ignored, and that the sense of the Convention will be in favor of it. Mr. CONGER-I would suggest to the mover of the resolution [Mr. Duganne], that it is unnecessary for him to add the latter clause of his proposition "to which shall be referred all matters," &c., because they will go as a matter of course to that committee. If he is willing to leave the proposition to raise a committee to take into consideration the question of industrial interests of the State, other than those referred to the committees provided in the previous paragraphs, he will embrace considerations that grow out of the interests of the agricultural community, and the mechanic arts also. And I agree with him in saying that thoses interests should receive consideration and attention from this Convention, without deviating from the proper objects for which we are convened. If he will accept that modification of his resolution I will support it, in order that we may have a committee which shall be known as a Committee on Industrial Interests, except those embraced in the previous subdivisions. Mr. DUGANNE-I accept the modification. Mr. BELL-I wish to inquire through the Chair if the committee took into consideration in its decision, the matter of the Salt Springs. The PRESIDENT-The Chair is not able to give the gentleman any information. Mr.'BELL-The State has a very large interest in the salines and salt springs of the State. There is a property therein, variously estimated at from 92 four to ten millions of dollars, with a large revenue, and it should receive a proper consideration. If' it is provided for by the committee in one of these subdivisions, I am content; otherwise I propose to offer an amendment moving for a distinct committee upon that subject. Mr. SEYMOUR-I call for the reading of the ninth subdivision; I think that will cover this question. It was intended to cover all the property of the State, and if not, then it ought to be there somewhere. Mr. BELL-I do not exactly understand the gentleman, and therefore I offer the following amendment: Resolved, Thata committee of seven be appointed by the President, whose duty it shall be to consider and report on the disposition, management, revenues and expenditures of the salt springs of the State. Mr. CONGER-I would suggest to the mover of this resolution, that it would be more consistent with the plan upon which these committees are enumerated, and he would simplify it by making it No. 21 or 22 as the case may be, and have it read "No. 21. On the salt works of the State." If that meets the approbation of the gentleman, as I suppose it will, I will state very briefly, that as the Convention has by its last vote, separated from the consideration of the Finance Committee all the property of the State, except the salt works, and given a separate and independent committee to the canals, and to the State prisons and other public property of the State, it ought now, in consistency and in justice to itself, to give a committee to the only other remaining property of the State which has not been specified. Mr. BELL-I am not particular what form this resolution shall take, neither am I strenuous that it shall be referred to a special or select committee, I only wish that the interests of the State may be protected, and that this large interest may be properly considered. If the gentleman prefers to put it in that form, I will accept it. It seems to me, that this reservation of the salt works is of sufficient importance, to be referred to a committee; and in saying that I have no desire to be a member of that committee, I simply desire that this interest may be examined and reported upon. In the present constitution, gentlemen will observe there is a constitutional provision with regard to the salt springs and the salt spring reservation, so,that however the committees were arranged in the Convention of 1846, there was a report on that subject, and that subject was particularly and definitely set forth in the constitution. I will accept the suggestion of the gentleman from Rockland. ]Mr. Conger.] The SECRETARY read the amendment as follows: "No. 21. On the salt springs of the State." The question being put on the amendment, it was declared adopted. Mr. VAN CAMPEN-I would like now to call up my resolution in reference to the Indians of the State. The PRESIDENT-The Chair would inform the gentleman that it is not now in order. Mr. TUCKER offered the following amendments: t Amend resolution 11 by inserting after the word "cities," the words "and incorporated villages;" and amend subdivision 12 by striking out the words "and villages." The PRESIDENT-This being two separate propositions, the question will be taken separately. Mr. TUCKER-I have only to say that I see no reason why the committee should have seen fit to divorce two classes of municipalities. I see no reason why the same committee should not consider cities and incorporated villages. The question being then put upon the amendment as to paragraph 11, it was declared to be lost. The question was then put upon the amendment as to paragraph 12, and it was declared to be lost. Mr. VAN CAMPEN offered the following amendment: "No. 22. On the relations of the State to the Indians residing therein." Which was'adopted. The SECRETARY then proceeded to read paragraph 19. Mr. ROBERTSON offered the following amendment: By adding at the end thereof " and laws." Which was lost. The SECRETARY then proceeded to read the unnumbered paragraphs. Mr. HARRIS,- The committee of Sixteen, in making this recommendation as to the number of the Committee, had some regard to the number of members of the Coinvention, and it was their purpose to provide that every member should have a place on some committee, and that no member should have a place on two committees, but now two committees have been added to the number, so that arrangement cannot be carried into effect. Again, sir, the Committee on Finance has virtually been divided, and there are now two committees on finance; the Committee on finance proper, and the Committee on canals, which will be also a Committee on finance; that Committee is as important a committee as the other, beside having in charge the glory and honor of the State (Laughter), therefore that Committee should certainly be as large as the Committee on finance. To make two committees of, sixteen each, would be to delegate to this subject one-fifth of this Convention, quite too much, I think, to be alloted to it, I am therefore inclined to think we had better make both committees of an equal number, and to make them less-I would therefore prefer a smaller number, and for the purpose of getting the sense of the Convention I would move, that the Committee on canals and finance consist of sixteen members each. Mr. FOLGER-I would move that it be fifteen instead of sixteen, as I have always found that an uneven number on a committee facilitated business. Mr. HARRIS-I will accept that modification. The question was then put upon the motion as modified, and it was declared to be carried. Mr. HUTCHINS -I would also move that Committee No. 9 and Committee No. 10 should also consist of fifteen' members each.. The question was then put upon the motion, and it was declared carried. i' 93 The SECRETARY then proceeded to read the other unnumbered paragraphs, and no objection being made thereto, they were declared adopted. Mr. CONGER moved that the report of the Committee of sixteen, as amended, be adopted. Which was carried. Mr. SHERMAN-I move the adoption of a small portion of the report of the -Committee on Rules, not yet adopted, for the appointment of four business committees, committee on privileges and elections, on printing, on contingent expenses, and on engrossment and enrollment. The question was then put upon the motion, and it was declared carried. Mr. FULLER moved that the report of the Committee of sixteen as amended be transferred to its proper place, in the report of the Committee on Rules, and that the rules be printed. Which was carried. Mr. HARRIS —We have now gone through With the preliminary work of ordering the Committees, and in order to enable the President to have time to consider the proper committees, and make the appointments, and as there is no other business, I apprehend, which can usefully occupy the time of this Convention, before the committees are appointed, I would move that when the Convention adjourns it adjourn to meet on Tuesday next at six o'clock P. l. Mr. ALVORD-I move to strike out six o'clock, P. M., and insert eleven o'clock, A. M. Mr. MERRITT-I think it had better be'at six o'clock. Those of us who desire to go home and have to go a long distance, cannot arrive here in time, if it is put at eleven; and I feel quite confident from the number of committees ordered by the Convention, it will require all that time for the President to prepare these committees, and I am persuaded that it will be better to adjourn until six o'clock, Tuesday, than at an.earlier hour. Mr. ALVORD —After getting the opinion of those directly around me, that six o'clock is a better hour, though I am of the opinion that to make it six o'clock is virtually to dissipate Tuesday, yet I will withdraw my amendment 'The question was then put upon the motion of Mr. Harris, and it was declared carried. Mr. WEED moved to adjourn. Mr. GREELEY-I hope not, until we make those select committees that have been asked for. Mr. MERRITT offered the following resolution: Resolved, That the privileges of the floor are hereby extended to the Hon. Geo. II. Thacher, Mayor of the city of Albany. The PRESIDENT-The Chair would inform the gentleman that under the rules that cannot now be considered. Mr. MERRITT-Then I ask for unanimous consent. No objection being made, the question was then put upon the resolution and it was declared to be adopted. Mr. G.REELEY-I beg the gentleman from Clinton [Mr. Weed] to withdraw his motion until we can get through with the appointment of the committees. Mr. WEED-At the request of the gentleman, I willwithdraw it. Mr. GREELEY-I ask the Chairman to take up the resolutions for select committees. There is one offered by Judge Graves for female suffrage. I hope they may be taken up and disposed of. The PRESIDENT-The Chair will announce the proper order of business. Resolutions are first in order. Mr. GRAVES offered the following resolution: Whereas, The use of adulterated intoxicating liquors has become an alarming evil, increasing domestic sorrow, creating pauperism and crime, thereby adding to the burdens of taxation, therefore, Resolved, That a committee of one from each judicial district be appointed to report, 1. Whether in their opinion, under our republican form of government, any authority should be granted to sell, or any prohibition enacted against the sale of intoxicating liquors, either by a legislative or organic law of the State. 2. Whether in their opinion, the sale of intoxicating liquors should be denied to all except such as shall receive a certificate under the hand and official seal of a person properly qualified and duly appointed showing that the liquor offered for sale had been carefully analyzed and was unadulterated, pure and contained no poisonous drug. 3. Whether in their opinion any law authorizing or prohibiting the sale should not be organic instead of legislative-thereby enacting a rule controlling and regulating public opinion and relieving each successive Legislature from the pressing importunities of those in favor of, or opposed to the sale of intoxicating drinks. The resolution was laid upon the table and ordered to be printed. Mr. GREELEY-I now move that the resolution for a select committee on female suffrage be taken up and acted upon. Mr. HARRIS -I hope the gentleman from Westchester [Mr. Greeley] will withdraw that, for this reason: these resolutions will all be properly referable, to some of the committees which are ordered;.when they are appointed, then these subjects can be taken from the table, and if no one else does, I myself will call them up and move to refer them to the proper committee. Mr. GREELEY-I will withdraw the motion. On motion of Mr. WEED the Convention adjourned. TUESDAY, June 18, 1867. The Convention met at 6 o'clock P. M., pursuant to adjournment. Prayer was offered by Rev. THOMAS DORAN. The Journal of Friday was read by the Secretary, and was approved. The PRESIDENT announced the reception of a communication, which was read by the Secretary in words as follows: MICHIGAN STATE LIBRARY, LANSING, June 15, 1867. To the President of the Constitutional Convention of New York: Sir-The following is a copy of a resolution adopted by the Constitutional Convention of Michigan, on yesterday: 94 Resolved, That the State Librarian be directed to make arrangements to exchange ten copies of the journal, debates and proceedings of this Convention with the Constitutional Convention of New York, for like documents, to be forwarded daily. It will afford me much pleasure to forward daily to your address, for the use of the Constitutional Convention of New York, ten copies of the documents, &c., referred to in the foregoing resolution, asking respectfully therefor, that ten copies of the journal, debates and documents of the Constitutional Convention of New York be forwarded daily to my address, for the use of the Constitutional Convention of this State. I have the honor to be, very respectfully,'your obedient servant, J. EUGENE TENNEY, State Librarian of Michigan. Ordered to be referred to the Standing Committee on Printing, when appointed. * Mr. FOLGER offered the following resolution: Resolved, That the Secretary of the Convention request by circular addressed to the Clerk of the Court of Appeals; the Clerk of each county in the State; the Clerk of the Court of Common Pleas in the city and county of New York; the Clerk of the Superior Court in the city and county of New York; the Clerk of the Superior Court in the city of'Buffalo; the Clerk of any Recorder's Court; the Clerk of any Mayor's Court; the Clerk of the Court of General Sessions in the city and county of New York, that such clerks respectively report to this Convention, as speedily as practicable, how many causes were on the last calendar of the Court or Courts of which he is the Clerk, at the terms thereof for the year ending January 1st, 1867; and what was the oldest and what was the youngest date of issue thereof (including therein the calendar of the general term, the special term, and the circuit or trial term, if any such term there be); and at such term how many causes were argued, how many were submitted, and (in courts where there are trials and references) how many were tried and how many were referred; and in the case of the clerk of a criminal court, how many indictments were pending at the last term thereof, and how many tried, or otherwise, and in what. manner disposed of; and that those of said clerks who keep a docket of judgments, report how many judgments were docketed within the year ending Jan. 1, 1867, and the amount of each, and the court in which the same originated, and the court in which, or whether by referee, the final judgment or decision was rendered or made, and that in reporting the amount of such payments, the amount of recovery and the amount of costs be separately stated. Which was laid over under the rule. Mr. COOKE offered the following resolution: Resolved, That the several county clerks in the State be required to furnish to this Convention a statement showing: 1. The aggregate number of days' session of the Circuit Court and Courts of Oyer and Terminer in their respective counties during the year 1866. 2. The aggregate number of days' session of the General Term of the Supreme Court in their respective counties during the same year. 3. The whole number of civil actions for libel, slander, assault and battery and malicious prosecution, tried in such counties respectively during the same year, and the aggregate amount of the recoveries therein. 4. The number of causes originating in Justices' Courts, in which the amount in controversy did not exceed fifty dollars, carried to the Supreme Court by appeal during the same year. Which was laid over under the rule. Mr. LAPHAM offered the following resolution: Resolved, That the Governor of the State be requested to communicate to the Convention, as soon as practicable, a list containing the number of the applications made to the Executive for pardons during the years 1864, 1865 and 1866; the number of such applications granted, with the nature of the offenses in classes. Which was laid over under the rule. Mr. CASE offered the following resolution: Resolved, That the Committee on Powers and Duties of the Legislature be requested to report at an early day for the consideration of the Convention an amendment to the Constitution prohibiting the Legislature making any appropriations or donations of money to any private or local, charitable or religious institutions or corporations, and whenever any appropriations are made by the Legislature other than for purposes of Government and State Institutions, such appropriations shall be made to each and every county of the State ratably according to population as shown by the last preceding census.. The question was then put on the resolution of Mr. Case, and it was declared adopted. Mr. FOWLER offered the following resolution: Resolved, That it be referred to the appropriate committee, to take into consideration the propriety of reporting an amendment to the Constitution, prohibiting the Legislature from passing any law granting, or authorizing the granting of any license for the sale of spirituous liquors. Mr. HARRIS-I prefer that should lie upon the table, until the committees are announced, so it may be referred to some committee by name. I move that it lie upon the table. The question being put upon the motion of Mr. Harris, it was declared to be carried. Mr. BICKFORD offered the following resolution: Resolved, That the Secretary of State be requested to furnish to this Convention a tabular statement in relation to the population of each county, town and ward of the cities of this State, according to the census of the year 1865; showing in one column the total population; in another the number of aliens; in another the number of persons of color not taxed; in another the whole number of persons of color; in another the population excluding aliens and persons of color not taxed; in another the population excluding aliens only; in another the population excluding persons of color not taxed only; and in another the population excluding only all persons of color; Which was laid over under the rule. Mr. HARRIS-It seems to me, that we have acted rather hastily, in the adoption of the resolution instructing the Committee on the Powers and Duties of the Legislature in relation to their I 95 report, and with a view to its further consideration, I move a reconsideration of the vote by which it was adopted. The PRESIDENT announced the question'on the motion to reconsider. Mr. RATHBUN-Mr. President: Ought not the motion to lie over until to-morrow, under the rule? I think that the rules provide that a motion to reconsider shall not be taken up the same day. The PRESIDENT-The point of order is well taken, and the motion will lie upon the table. On motion of Mr. ARCHER the Convention adjourned. WEDNESDAY, June 19, 1867. The Convention met at 11 o'clock. Prayer was offered by Rev. CHAS. GRAVES. The Journal of yesterday was read by the SECRETARY, and was approved. The PRESIDENT then announced the following standing committees: ON THE PREAMBLE AND TEE BILL OF RIGHTS. Messrs. Evarts, of New York. Frank, of Wyoming. A. R. Lawrence, of New York. Bowen, of Niagara. Paige, of Schenectady. Spencer, of Steuben. Hardenburgh, of Ulster. ON THE LEGISLATURE-ITS ORGANIZATION AND THE NUMBER, APPORTIONMENT, ELECTION, TENURE OP OFFICE, AND COMPENSATION OF ITS MEMBERS. Messrs. Merritt, of St. Lawrence. Cooke, of Ulster. Sherman, of Oneida. Monell, of New York. Barker, of Chautauqua. J. Brooks, of New York. Merwin, of Jefferson. ON THE POWERS AND DUTIES OF THE LEGISLATURE, EXCEPT AS TO MATTERS OTHERWISE REFERRED. Messrs. Rathbun, of Cayuga. Rumsey, of Steuben. Robertson, of New York. E. A. Brown, of Lewis. Field, of Orleans. M. H. Lawrence, of Yates. Burrill, of New York. ON THE RIGHT OF SUFFRAGE AND THE QUALIFICATIONS TO HOLD OFFICE. Messrs. Greeley, of Westchester. Endress, of Livingston. L. W. Russell, of St. Lawrence. Cassidy, of Albany. Merrill, of Wyoming. Williams, of Oneida. Schumaker, of Kings. ON THE GOVEROR AND LIEUTENANT-GOVERNOR, THEIR ELECTION, TENURE OP OFFICE, COMPENSATION, POWERS AND DUTIES, EXCEPT AS OTHERWISE REFERRED. Messrs. C. L. Allen, of Washington. E. P. Brooks, Steuben. A. J. Parker, of Albany. Flagler, of Niagara. Wakeman, of Gcnesee. Miller, of Delaware. Garvin, of.New York. ON THE SECRETARY OF STATE, COMPTROLLER, TREASURER, ATTORNEY-GENERAL, AND STATE ENGINEER AND SURVEYOR, THEIR ELECTION OR APPOINTMENT, TENURE OF OFFICE, COMPENSATION, POWERS AND DUTIES. Messrs. Tucker, of New York. Baker, of Montgomery.. Duganne, of New York. Fuller, of Monroe. Hand, of Broome, Ketchum, of Wayne. A. R. Lawrence, of New York. )W TOWN AND COUNTY OTFICERS, OTHER THAN JUDICIAL, THEIR ELECTION OR APPOINTMENT, TENURE OF OFFICE, COMPENSATION, rowFRs AND DUTIES. Messrs. Smith, of Fulton. Bickford, of Jefferson. Rolfe, of Kings. A. Lawrence, of Schuyler. Kinney, of Tioga. Sheldon, of Dutchess. Roy, of Albany. ON THE JUDICIARY. Messrs. Folger, of Ontario. Evarts, of New York, Comstock, of Onondaga. Van Cott, of Kings. Daly, of New York. Barker, ot Chautauqua. Kernan, of Oneida., HntMinfi, of NewYork. Masten, of Erie. T. W. Dwight, of Oneida. A. J. Parker, Albany. Andrews, of Onondaga. Hale, of Essex. Goodrich, of Tompkins. Pierrepont, of New York. ON THE FIXANCES OF THE STATE, THE PUBLIC DEBT, REVENUES, EXPENDITURES1 AND TAXATION, AND RESTRICTIONS ON TILE POWERS OF THE LEGIBL4,TURE IN RESPECT TEtERETO. Messrs. Church, of Orleans. Frank, of Wyoming, Corning, of Albany. k. Van Cott, of K gs. Schell, o New York. W. C. Brown, of St. Lawrence. Nelson, of Dutchess. A. F. Allen, of Chautauqua. Hatch, of Erie. Carpenter, of Datchess. Barto, of Tompkins. Hardenburgh, of Ulster. ON CANALS. Messrs. Lapham, of Ontario.,Alvord, of Onondaga. Clinton, of Erie. Prosser, of Erie. Seymour, of Rensselaer. Beckwith, of Clinton. Schoonmaker, of Ulster. Hutehius,,of New York. Champlain, of Allegany. Root, of Oswego. Bell, of Jefferson. Magee 'of Schuyler. Prindle, of Chenango. Bergen, of Kings. Tappen, of Westchester. ON CITIES, THEIR ORGANIZATION, GOvRRXX9NT A" POWERS. Messrs. Harris, Albany.. 0 d ke of New York. Vuryh ' of KingsFrancis,-of Rensselaer. Paige, of Schenectady. Alvord, of Onondaga. Verplanck, of'Erle. Bowen, of Niagrara. Law, of New York. Fullerton, of Orange. E. Brooks, of Richmond. Graves, of Herkimer. Weed, of Clinton. Hand. of Broome. Chesebro, of Ontario. )N TOWN AND COUNTY OFFICERS, OTHER THAN JUDICIAL, THEIR ELECTION OR APPOINTMENT, TENURE OF OFFICE, COMPENSATION, POWERS AND DUTIES. Messrs. Smith, of Fulton. Bickford, of Jefferson. Rolfe, of Kings. A. Lawrence, of Schuyler. Kinney, of Tioga. Sheldon, of Dutchess. Roy, of Albany. ON THE JUDICIARY. Messrs. Folger, of Ontario. Evarts, of New York, Comstock, of Onondaga. Van Cott, of Kings. Daly, of New York. Barker, of Chautauqua. Kernan, of Oneida. Hutchins, of NewYork. Masten, of Erie. T. W. Dwight, of Oneida. A. J. Parker, Albany. Andrews, of Onondaga. Hale, of Essex. Goodrich, of Tompkins. Pierrepont, of New York. ON THE FINANCES OF THE STATE, THE PUBLIC DEBT, REVENUES, EXPENDITURES, AND TAXATION, AND RESTRICTIONS ON THE POWERS OF THE LEGISL4TURE IN RESPECT THERETO. Messrs. Church, of Orleans. Frank, of Wyoming, Corning, of Albany. Opdyke, of New York. Tilden, of New York. Clark, of Monroe. Van Cott, of Kings. Schell, of New York. W. C. Brown, of St. Lawrence. Nelson, of Dutchess. A. F. Allen, of Chautauqua. Hatch, of Erie. Carpenter, of Dutchess. Barto, of Tompkins. Hardenburgh, of Ulster. ON CANALS. Messrs. Lapham, of Ontario.,Alvord, of Onondaga. Clinton, of Erie. Prosser, of Erie. Seymour, of Rensselaer. Beckwith, of Clinton. Schoonmaker, of Ulster. Hutchins, of New York. Champlain, of Allegany. Root, of Oswego. Bell, of Jefferson. Magee, of Schuyler. Prindle, of Chenango. Bergen, of Kings. Tappen, of Westchester. ON CITIES, THEIR ORGANIZATION, GOVERNMENT AND POWERS. Messrs. Harris, Albany. Opdyke, of New York. Murphy, of Kings. Francis,'of Rensselaer. Paige, of Schenectady. Alvord, of Onondaga. Verplanck, of Erie. Bowen, of Niagara. Law, of New York. Fullerton, of Orange. E. Brooks, of Richmond. Graves, of Herkimer. Weed, of Clinton. Hand. of Broome. Chesebro, of Ontario. 96 ON COUNTIES, TOWNS AND VILLAGES, THEIR ORGANIZATION, GOVERNMENT:AND POWERS. Messrs. Hadley, of Seneca. N. M. Allen, of Cattaraugus. Lowrey, of Kings. Ferry, of Otsego. Fowler, of Madison. Corbett, of Onondaga. Wickham, of Suffolk. ON CURRENCY, BANKING AND INSURANCE. Messrs. Beadle. of Chemung, Huntington, of Oneida. Veeder, of Kings. Eddy, of Otsego. Armstrong, of Rensselaer. Ludington, of Sullivan. Hitchman, of New York. ON CORPORATIONS OTHER THAN MUNICIPAL, BANKING AND INSURANCE. Messrs. Ballard, of Cortland. Stratton, of New York. S. Townsend, of Queens. Krum, of Schoharie. L. W. Russell, of St. Lawrence. Hitchcock, of Washington. Barnard, of Kings. ON STATE PRISONS AND THE PREVENTION AND PUNISHMENT OF CRIME. Messrs. Gould, of Columbia. C. C. Dwight, of Cayuga. A. D. Russell, of New York. Cochran, of Westchester. Lee, of Oswego. Axtell, of Clinton. Conger, Rockland. ON THE PARDONING POWER. Messrs. M. I. Townsend, of Rensselaer. Pond, of Saratoga. Develin, of New York. Landon, of Schenectady, Prindle, of Chenango. Lee, of Oswego. Gerry, of New York. ON THE MILITIA AND MILITARY OFFICERS. Messrs. Morris, cf Putnam, Seaver, of Franklin. Barto, of Tompkins. C. C. Dwight, of Cayuga Cheritree, of Warren. Stratton, of New York. Hammond, of Allegany. ON EDUCATION AND FUNDS RELATING THERETO. Messrs. Curtis, of Kings. Archer, of Wayne. Conger, of Rockland. Gould, of Columbia. Beals, of Hierkimer. Clinton, of Erie. Larremore, of New York. ON CHARITIES AND CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. Messrs. E. Brooks, of Richmond. T. W. Dwight, of Oneida. Strong, of Suffolk. Spencer, of Steuben. Ludington, of Sullivan. Silvester, of Columbia. Livingston, of Kings. ON INDUSTRIAL INTERESTS, EXCEPT THOSE ALREADY REFERRED. Messrs. Duganne, of New York, Gross, of New York. Farnham, of Allegany. Armstrong, of Rensselaer. Wales, of Sullivan. Case, of Madison. More, of Greene. ON THE SALT SPRINGS OF THE STATE. Messrs. Bell, of Jefferson. Comstock, of Onondaga. C. E. Parker, of Tioga. McDonald, of Ontario. Rolfe, of Kings. Houston, of Orange. Young, of Ulster. ON THE RELATIONS OF THE STATE TO THE 'INDIANS RESIDING THEREIN. Messrs. Van Campen, of Cattaraugus. Silvester, of Columbia. Bergen, of Kings. Axtell, of Clinton. S. Townsend, of Queens. McDonald, Ontario. Colahan, of Kings. ON FUTURE AMENDMENTS AND REVISIONS OF THE CONSTITUTION. Messrs. E. A. Brown, of Lewis. Greeley, of Westchester. Robertson, of New York, Flagler, of Niagara. Murphy, of Kings. Grant, of Delaware. J. Brooks, of New York. ON PRIVILEGES AND ELECTIONS. Messrs. Landon, of Schenectady. Endress, of Livingston. Loew, of New York. Lowrey, of Kings. Mattice, of Ulster. ON PRINTING. Messrs. Seaver, of Franklin. Francis, of Rensselaer. Potter, of Erie. Merrill, of Wyoming. Jarvis, of New York. ON CONTINGENT EXPENSES. Messrs. Ferry, of Otsego. Williams, of Oneida. Cochran, of Westchester. Reynolds, of Monroe. Rodgers, of New York. ON ENGROSSMENT AND ENROLLMENT. Messrs. Sherman, of Oneida, Archer, of Wayne. Cassidy, of Albany. Cheritree, of Warren. Mattice, of Ulster. Mr. CURTIS presented a petition from the Friends of Progress, assembled at Waterloo, N. Y., June 1st, 1867, in favor of female suffrage. Which was referred to the Committee on the Right of Suffrage. Mr. M. I. TOWNSEND presented a petition from Wm. H. Johnson, Chairman of the State Central Committee of colored citizens, praying for the establishment of equal manhood suffrage. Which was referred to the Committee on the Right of Suffrage. Mr. CLINTON presented a communication from A. G. Stephens, Esq., relative to the Bill of Rights. Which was received and referred to the Committee on the Bill of Rights. Mr. MASTEN-I desire to present a communication from Mr. Wm. H. Greene, a gentleman of scholarly attainments, a lawyer of eminence, learning and large experience. The subject of his communication is upon the code of procedure and the forms of actions, both legal and equitable, and upon pleadings. The communication was -received and referred to the Committee on the Judiciary. The PRESIDENT presented a communication from the Commissioners of the Canal Department. 97 in reply to a resolution of the Convention request- reason that they did not care to undertake the ing them to furnish a statement of the cost, work. The Journal and Argus publishers respecrevenues, &c., of the canals of this State. tively are willing to print the stenographic Which was laid on the table and ordered to be reports of the debates and proceedings, from day printed. to day, in the regular editions of their papers, Mr. FRANCIS, from the Select Committee on and at prices which your Committee consider Printing verbatim reports of the proceedings of liberal to the State, being considerably less than the Convention, submitted the following report and half the legal rates for publishing, to wit: Six resolution: dollars and a half per column for such publicaYour committee, to whom was referred a reso- tion in each paper, and to include the daily lution of inquiry as to the terms upon which ver- delivery of two copies of all the issues of their batim reports of the proceedings of this Conven- papers containing the proceedings and debates to tion can be published in two or more newspapers each member of the Convention without further of this city, have had the subject under consid- charge. eration, and respectfully report: In this connection, your committee have given It first became necessary to ascertain whether attention to a proposition germane to the subjectthe power to contract for the performance of such matter referred to them-that the proceedings and work as was contemplated by the resolution was debates be published in pamphlet form under the conferred by the terms of the law which created contract with the convention printers, and disthe Convention. Under the eighth section of the tributed by the Convention. This method, while law referred to, the Comptroller and Secretary of involving a larger cost, if estimated upon the basis State are " authorized and required to receive pro- of an equal circulation to be obtained by the posals and make contract for all the printing newspaper publication as proposed, would also be necessary for the said Convention." attended with much additional labor, and fail to Under this provision, a contract was made with accomplish the ends desired, A pamphlet does Weed, Parsons & Co., of the date of May 16, not go into general circulation. It lacks the fresh1867, for the printing of Documents at a compen- ness, and does not secure the interest that attaches sation of $11 for each 800 copies of 8 pages, to to the newspaper. It would be read by cominclude all charges, and for each additional 100 paratively few persons. copies of 8 pages, 66 cents; for Journals, each A newspaper, on the other hand, is received 800 copies of 8 pages, to include all charges, everywhere, and comes under the observation of $12.75, and for each additional 100 copies of 8 all classes. Circulate as many of the pamphlets pages, 40 cents; for Debates, each 800 copies of as you may, still you will fail to reach the people 8 pages, each page to contain hot less than 3,000 and instruct them in the work of this Convention, ems of brevier and nonpareil type, to include all as may be done by the newspaper publication of charges, $5.88, and for each additional 100 copies the full stenographic reports of its daily proceedof 8 pages, $1. The following paragraph appears ings and debates. in the advertisement for proposals issued by the The Evening Journal and the Argus are in a Secretary of State and Comptroller, and, in the sense representative organs of the two great opinion of the latter officer, becomes a part of political parties, and the Convention debates pubthe contract with the Convention printers by virtue lished in their columns from day to day would be of the official acceptance of their proposals: brought to the attention of a very large number Miscellaneous printing not coming under above of people, of a class interested in public questions, heads, will be paid for at the rates current in the and would also be placed sooner than otherwise city of Albany at the time of the execution could be done, in the hands of newspaper editors thereof." throughout the State, who would be certain to These are all the provisions of the contract with make such excerpts from or comments upon the Convention Printers, bearing upon the subject them, as would attract the attention of the people of printing, its proceedings and debates. The law to questions which they will be called upon is silent with reference to newspaper publication of to decide. this matter, and under its express authority, such The inquiry is pertinent here, whether the adpublication could only be secured by an arrange- vantages derivable from the publication as proment with the Convention Printers. posed would be sufficient to justify the expense But this would involve a compensation at " the to be incurred. Your committee assume that the rates current at Albany," in this case regulated sessions of the Convention will continue many by the charges for transient advertising-an ex- weeks. Perhaps, when it adjourns, but a short pense much larger than is necessary to be in- time will elapge, as was the case in 1846, before curred for the service. This plan being consid- the period when its work is to be submitted to the ered impracticable, the next question that arose people for approval or rejection. In that brief inwas whether parties proposing for the work tervening time, there will be little opportunity for would be willing to go forward and perform it stating and discussing the questions which have under direction of the Convention, without any arisen and received attention here. fund from which their remuneration could be But if the proceedings and debates are pubdrawn-relying upon future action by the Legis- lished in extenso, as they transpire, and in a lature to secure payment for their service. manner to secure their largest reading and study, Propositions have been made to the Committee discussions will begin with them at the outset, by the publishers of the Albany Evening Journal and when we adjourn, the public will have a full and of the Albany Argus, the proprietors of other and accurate understanding of what we have acnewspapers here declining to offer terms, for the complished. Certainly it is of the first importance 13 98 in connection with the great work committed to in the counties of Albany and Rensselaer, but in this Convention, that the people should be fully the western, northern and southern parts of the informed of its doings and the reasons in detail State it would disseminate very little intelligence. for all action taken here. In my own village which has a population of But an object, perhaps quite as important, willbe seven thousand, and a town population of'nine accomplished by the proposed newspaper publica- thousand, there are, of those two journals, but six tion, in placing upon the tables of members daily copies taken besides the exchanges with the the verbatim reports of the discussions which papers. And outside the two counties of Albany occur. An opportunity will thus be furnished to and Rensselaer, and the adjoining counties, this members to deliberately review the arguments would not accomplish the object that is desired. advanced in the Convention while subjects are While I grant that with regard to these two still under discussion, and while the measures counties the people should be as well informed as proposed are still within their control. Relying any others, I, at the same time, claim that if this upon the pamphlet publication of the debates, Convention makes any appropriation for the purexperience shows that there would be a much pose of disseminating knowledge of the proceedgreater delay, thus in a measure depriving the ings therein among the people of the State as the Convention of the important advantages named. entire people of the State have to pay for that Your Committee, therefore, are of opinion that appropriation, therefore the entire people of each the publication referred to is both feasible and and every part of the State should have the same proper, and in their opinion, the advantages that advantages that can be obtained in this way, and would result therefrom, fully justify the expendi- that the debates should be distributed in such ture necessary for the purpose. They recommend manner and way as that the entire people of each the adoption of the following resolution: and every part of the State shall have such equal Resolved, That the Albany Evening Journal advantage, which, as I have shown, cannot be done and the Albany Argus be authorized to publish in the manner in favor of which the committee rethe daily reports of the proceedings and debates port. My third objection is, that the same object of this Convention, as furnished by the Steno- can be obtained in a much cheaper way under the grapher, and furnish two copies to each member contract already made, and in a legal form, and in of the Convention, for a compensation of six dollars a form that will not bind this Convention in its and fifty cents per column of solid brevier and future action, when it may come to consider it in nonpareil type for such publication in each paper a more deliberate manner, and that will not bind named. Said reports to be printed in the regular this Convention prematurely to a course of action editions of said papers; and that the next Legis- which it might otherwise wish not to have taken. lature be requested to make the requisite appro- According to the contract which is already priation for payment of the service. made, and under which we are acting-and J. M. FRANCIS, Chairman. which as I have said before, will be legal,-we can furnish a copy of these debates in a pamphMr. McDONALD-Mr. President: I am opposed let form, provided they contain no more than one to agreeing with the report of the committee for thousand pages, for $1.25. This calculation of the following reasons: In the first place, it is ad- 1000 pages is on the basis of one hundred days' mitted on the face of the report itself, that this session, and of ten pages for each session, and Convention has no authority whatever to make on the basis of the debates of the Convention of this contract, or to enter into any agreement or 1846, which set for one hundred and nine con- j any understanding with regard to it. It therefore secutive days, and which from its begining to its involves this important question, which this Con- ending was about one hundred and thirty days in vention may be called on in a more direct and session. The proceedings of that Convention solemn form to pass upon. It involves the ques- made 1131 pages, and I claim that a fair calcution whether the Legislature of this State shall be lation for the proceedings of this is 1000 empowered or directed to pass upon claims arising pages. For 1000 pages, as I have said, we can in other bodies, or rather to pass judicially upon furnish a copy of the pamphlet for $1.25, which claims. I, for one, am opposed to the Legislature is the price according to the contract. The Cornhaving anything to do with claims whatever; and mittee have neglected to state one thing, that the I understand that there are other members of contract does not provide that the debates shall this Convention who are in favor of that same be published at all. It provides that if this Conproposition. I therefore object that this resolu- vention shall order any debates, then they shall tion shall be thus passed upon, and that this be published in this manner, and at the price, as question shall thereby be foreclosed, as it were; stated in the report, of $735 for first 800 copies because if we pass this resolution we virtually of 1000 pages, and $125 for each additional 100 call upon the next Legislature to make an appro- copies. I understand from Mr. Parsons that within priation in order to pay for this printing, and we three days, at the farthest, after these debates are thereby establish a precedent which after due de- had and the proceedings are approved in this body, liberation we may think ought not to be established. they can be laid upon our tables, and usually within The second objection I make is this, that it will one or two days, so that, as far as we are connot accomplish the object for which it is intended. cerned, we shall have the debates in a form which, It is claimed by the report of the committee that as I have already said, is according to law. the entire object of this resolution is to dissemi- We have our covers arranged for them and we nate among the people of the State a knowledge can have them in a form which any one will see of the proceedings of this Convention. It would, is entirely preferable to the newspaper form. I admit, disseminate a pretty general knowledge For who will keep a file of the newspaper 99 copy of the debates? But in the pamphlet form they can be furnished to us easily, so that we can refer to them at any time if we shall desire. In regard to the dissemination of the proceedings throughout the State at the rate they have been published, of twelve columns a day, as you will find by the publication of the Evening Journal, the cost to this Convention every day it meets will amount to $144. Twelve columns, at $12, is $144, and $144 a day for one hundred days, will amount to $14,400. For that price we can disseminate throughout this State at least nine thousand copies of the pamphlet edition issued in two or three days after the debates, and pay the postage thereon. I submit, therefore, if it is desirable, (and I agree with the committee that it is,) to disseminate these proceedings among the people, that this Convention can disseminate far more information among the people of the State, and especially among the sections not immediately adjoining this city, if the nine thousand pamphlet copies of these debates were properly distributed. Let each member take twenty copies and send to the editor of each newspaper, and to each reading room, and to public citizens in his district, and let that citizen not have it in the form of a paper, but have it in such a form that he can refer to it at any time. I submit, in that way the people of the State will become far more conversant with regard to the proceedings of this Convention. I, therefore, am opposed to the adoption of this resolution; in the first place, because it is illegal. And I do not propose for one to start off, in the first days of this Convention, by committing it to the practice which, above all things, our Legislature ought to be prohibited from-passing upon and providing payment for illegal and unauthorized proceedings on the part of another body. I oppose it, in the second place, because it does not accomplish the object designed. I oppose it, in the third place, because with a far less legal expenditure of money, we can attain the object in a far greater degree, than by the illegal and unauthorized expenditure recommended by the report of the committee, and I therefore hope the resolution recommended by the Committee will not pass. Mr. M. I. TOWNSEND-This subject, sir, is comparatively new to me at least, and it is impossible to understand it without being able to read the report, and for that reason I move that the report be laid upon the table and printed. The question being put upon the motion of Mr. Townsend it was declared to be carried. Mr. SMITH offered the following resolution: Resolved, That the Committee "on the Right of Suffrage and Qualifications to Hold Office." be instructed to inquire into the expediency of reporting a Constitutional provision, permanently excluding from the right to the elective franchise, all persons who may be convicted by a court of record of having received money or other valuable thing to influence or reward their vote, and to make the offense, with or without such conviction, a cause of challenge and disfranchisement at the polls. Mr. SEAVE R-I move to amend the resolution by inserting after the word " received" the words, " or to have paid or offered to pay." Mr. KETCLAMI moved that the resolution be laid on the table and printed. Which was carried. Mr. L. W. RUSSELL offered the following resolution: "Resolved, That Committee No. 9 be instructed to inquire into the expediency of reporting an amendment to the Constitution prohibiting the allowing or giving extra compensation to any public officer, agent or contractor, after the work shall be completed, or the contract entered into. The question was put on the resolution of MrL. W. Russell, and it was declared adopted. Mr. GOULD offered the following resolution: Resolved, That the Secretary of this Convention be directed to procure from the several County Clerks in this State, as soon as practicable, a statement embracing the following particulars from the years 1857 to 1866, both inclusive: 1st. The number of indictments found in each year in all the criminal courts of the county. 2d. The number of persons admitted to bail in each county in each year by said courts. 3d. The aggregate amount of bail taken in each year in the courts of record. 4th. The aggregate amount of bail ordered to be estreated in each year. Resolved, That the Secretary be directed to procure from the several County Treasurers of this State, the amount of money paid to them on account of forfeited bail, in each of the years from 1857 to 1866, inclusive. Which was laid over under the rule. Mr. HADLEY offered the following resolution: Resolved, That the Clerk of the Court of Appeals report to this Convention, with all convenient speed, the total amount of all funds and securities now held by him in trust, under any order, judgment or decree of any court, including the late Court of Chancery. And that he specify the total amount of such funds and securities, which has remained with said Clerk or his predecessors for more than twenty years, if any. Second-The total amount of such funds and securities that has so remained for fifteen years and less than twenty years. Third-Tlhe total amount of such funds and securities that has so remained for ten years: and less than fifteen years. Fourth,-The total amount of such funds and securities that has so remained for five years, and less than ten years. Fifth.-In what manner such funds are invested and secured, and at what rate of interest. Which was laid over under the rule. Mr. COLAHAN offered the following resolution: Resolved, That this Convention take into consideration the necessity of amending the present Constitution of this State so that the cities of New York and Brooklyn, and all cities and municipalities of this State, be secured and protected in the administration of their respective local governments from infringement on their rights and powers, and from partisan and partial legislation on the part of the Legislature of this State. And that this Convention consider the system of special legislation and existing commissions as enacted for and made more particularly applicable to the cities of New York and Brooklyn, by recent State legislation. Which was referred to the Committee ou Cities. 100 Mr. FULLER offered the following resolution: Resolved, That the first section of the second article of the Constitution of the State of New York be amended by striking out therefrom the following words: "But no man of color, unless he shall have been for three years a citizen of this State, and for one year next preceding any election, shall have been seized and possessed of a freehold estate of the value of two hundred and fifty dollars, over and above all debts and incumbrances charged thereon, and shall have been actually rated, and paid a tax thereon, shall be entitled to vote at such election. And no person of color shall be subject to direct taxation unless he shall be seized and possessed of such real estate as aforesaid." And that the said Constitution be further amended by striking out therefrom the words "persons of color not taxed," wherever they occur in other articles thereof. Which was referred to the Committee on the Right of Suffrage. Mr. HALE offered the following resolution: Resolved, That the Committee on the Organization of the Legislature, be instructed to inquire into the expediency of providing some system by which a more equal and just representation of all the electors, minorities as well as majorities, may be secured; and that, with this view. they be respectfully requested to investigate the system originated by Mr. Thomas Hare, and recently proposed in the English Parliament by John Stuart Mill. Mr. HALE moved that the resolution be referred to the Committee on the Organization of the Legislature, &c. Which was ordered. Mr. C. L. ALLEN offered the following resolution: Resolved, That the Committee on the Judiciary be instructed to inquire into the expediency of enlarging the powers and duties of County Courts, and extending their original jurisdiction, with power to hear, try and determine all actions the causes for which shall arise in their respective counties, and where the amount in controversy shall not exceed the sum of $500, excepting actions for the recovery of the possession of real property. Mr. EDDY moved to amend by making the sum one thousand dollars in lieu of five hundred. Mr. C. L. ALLEN accepted the amendment. The question was then put upon the resolution as amended, and it was declared adopted. Mr. HARRIS offered the following resolution: Resolved, That the Tax Commissioners of the City of New York be requested to furnish to this Convention a statement of the number of taxpayers in the city of New York, as the same appears from the records and documents in their office; distinguishing, as far as practicable, between those assessed for real estate and those assessed for personal property, Which was laid over under the rule. Mr. BICKFORD offered the following resolution: Resolved, That the Committee on the Preamble and the Bill of Rights, be instructed to inquire and report as to the expediency of so modifying section 5 of the Bill of Rights, as to provide that, no witness shall be detained who shall tender his own recognizance to appear and testify, and shall prove by his own oath or otherwise, to the satisfaction of the Court, or a judge on habeas corpus; that he or she is unable to give a recognizance with sufficient sureties. Also, as to the expediency of striking out of section 7 all that relates to Private Roads. Also, as to tha expediency of striking out section 9, and inserting in its stead the following. "The Legislature shall pass no bill appropriating the public moneys or property for local or private purposes." Also, as to the propriety of adding, at the end of section 2, the words, "But the Legislature may by law provide that a jury may consist of any number of jurors not less than six or more than twelve." Also, as to the propriety of striking out section 14 of the Bill of Rights, and also of so amending it as to strike out the word " twelve," and insert the word "twenty." Also, as to the expediency of inserting in section 10, after the words "judicial proceedings," the words "and for causes rendering the marriage contract void from the beginning, and for crime or adultery.4' The question was then put on the resolution of Mr. Bickford, and it was declared adopted. Mr. AXTELL offered the following resolution: Resolved, That the Committee on the Judiciary be directed to inquire as to the expediency of abolishing the jurisdiction of Justices of the Peace in civil causes, and establishing minor courts in the several towns to be held by the County Judges for the trial of such civil causes as are now triable by Justices of the Peace, and report to this Convention. The question was then put on the resolution of Mr. Axtell and it was declared lost. Mr. BAKER offered the following resolution: Resolved, That the Comptroller of this State be requested, at as early a day as practicable, to report to this Convention the whole amount of moneys appropriated by the Legislature of this State, and paid by the Comptroller to the several local private institutions called charitable institutions, not chartered by the Legislature from 1857 to 1867, both inclusive, giving the name and location of each institution so receiving such appropriation, and the amount received in each year during the time aforesaid. Which was laid over under the rule. Mr. S. TOWNSEND offered the following resolution, and moved that it lie upon the table: Resolved, That Committee No. 2 (on the Legislature, its organization, etc.), be requested to take under consideration, and report to this body upon the policy of providing that the House of Assem bly consist of 100 members, to be elected yearly from single districts; that the Senate consist of eight members, one elected from each judicial disdistrict, for the term of eight years, one each year on general ticket. That the sole power of initiating and enacting laws, be vested in the Assembly; that the legislative power of the Senate shall consist of considering and revising such acts as may be passed by the Assembly. That the salary of E 101 Senators be $5.000 and pf Assemblymen $1,000 provide by law a test-oath for the exclusion of such per annum. Which was laid upon the table. persons from the elective franchise. rSEC. 3. All persons born or naturalized in this State, Mr. TAPPEN offered the following resolution and resident therein, and all citizens of the United and asked that it be referred to the appropriate States, resident in this State, are citizens of this State. committee. Which was referred to the Committedbon the Resolved, That the following amendments be in- Right of Suffrage. corporated in the Constitution. Mr. HARRIS-I ask for the consideration of 1st. That the Legislature hold one annual ses- the motion made by me yesterday, to reconsider sion, commencing on the first Tuesday in December the vote on the resolution offered by the gentlein each year. man from Madison [Mr. Case]. 2d. That the Senate be increased to forty mem- The SECRETARY then proceeded to read the bers, of whom thirty-two shall be elected by resolution of Mr. Case, as follows: Districts, and eight shall be elected by the State Resolved, That the Committte on the Powers at large. and Duties of the Legislature be requested to 3d. That the compensation to Members of the report at an early day, for the consideration of Legislature be one thousand dollars forthe session this Convention, an amendment to the Constituin full of all pay, mileage and stationery. tion, prohibiting the Legislature making any Which was referred to the Committee on the appropriations or donations of money to any priLegislature, its Organization, &c. vate or local, charitable or religious institutions Mr. GREELEY-The resolution as read seems or corporations, and whenever any appropriations to be a resolution of instruction to the Committee. are made by the Legislature other than for purThe form of the resolution should be a resolution poses of Government and State Institutions, such of inquiry. If it is a resolution of instruction I appropriations shall be made to each and every shall object to it County of the State, ratably, according to popuThe PRESIDENT-The Chair rules no instruc- lation, as shown by the last preceding census. tion has yet been made to the Committee; that Mr. HARRIS-I have no objection to the that must be done by the Convention. It is enquiry, but this is a resolution of the Convention simply referred for their consideration. requesting the.Committee to report an amendment Mr. ICKFORD, offered the following resolu- to the Constitution which may be regarded as in the tion: nature of an instruction. If the proposition shall Resolved, That Committee No. 4, on the Right be altered so as to request the committee to of Suffrage, be instructed to inquire into and report inquire into the expediency of reporting such an on the expediency and propriety of extending the admendment, I have no objection to its passing elective franchise to native born male citizens of if the mover of the resolution will modify it in this State, between the ages of 18 and 21. that form. Mr.TILDEN moved that the resolution be Mr. CASE-I accept the modification. referred to the Committee on the Right of Suff- The PRESIDENT-That can only be done by rage. unanimous consent. The PRESIDENT-If it is a resolution of There being no objection the question was then instructions the chair holds that the instructions put on the resolution of Mr. Case, as modified, by should come from the Convention. consent of the mover, and it was declared adopted Mr. TILDEN-I would suggest for the con- Mr. POND offered the following resolution: venience of the Convention that a different form Resolved, 1st. That the Committee on the Judicibe adopted in drawing up resolutions intended ary be instructed to inquire into the expediency of to be referred. so modifying the Constitution as to permit juries in The PRESIDENT-The resolution giving rise civil causes to render verdicts, upon the agreeto debate it will lie over under the rule. ment of a number less than the whole. Mr. AXTELL offered the following resolution, 2d. Also to inquire into the propriety of so and moved that it be referred to the Committee on amending the Constitution as to prohibit the the Right of Suffrage. receipt by all judicial officers, including Justices Resolved, That the following article be inserted of the Peace, of any fee or perquisites of office as in the Constitution: a compensation for their services, or otherwise. The question was then put on the resolution of SECTION 1. Every male citizen of the age of 21 years, Mr. Pond, and it was declared adopted. who shall have been a citizen for ten days, and an in- Mrond and it declared adopted. habitant of this State six months next preceding an Mr. VERPLANCK offered the following resoelection, and for the last three months a resident of the lution: county where he may offer his vote, shall be entitled to esolved, That the National Gird of this 8fAt16 vote at such election, in the election district of which soed, at the National uar s t he shall at the lime be a resident, and not elsewhere, (to be composed of volunteers), shall, in time of for all officers that now are or may be elected by the peace, consist of not exceeding twenty-five thoipeople, but such citizen shall have been for thirty days sand, officers and men, to be uniformed armAd next preceding the election, a resident of thadistrict ocers men,to e uni, ar from which the officeris to bechosen forwhom he offers and equipped at the expense of the State; the to vote. organization and discipline to conform to that o SEc. 2. All persons who have been or may be con- the army of the United States. victed of bribery, or of giving or receiving a bribe for Which was referred to the Committee on Mlitla their votes, of larceny, or of any infamous crime, all deserters, or persons whose names appear upon the and Public Defense. military records of this or of any of the States, as Mr. HARRIS offered the following resolution: deserters from the military service of the United States, Resolved, That the Committee on the Judiciary and all persons who have been voluntarily engaged n d C e a rebellion against the United States, shall be excluded Finance, Cities, eah be auo to from the right of suffrage; and the Legislaturei shall employ a clerk for their respective committees; / 102 Mr. BICKFORD-I would inquire of the ge: tleman from Albany [Mr. Harris], through tl Chair, whether he is aware of any provision law for the payment of the clerks proposed by h resolution. Mr. HARRIS-I am not aware of any speci provision in the law under which this Conventic was called, but I suppose that their pay would con out of the contingent fund, or perhaps not unt the Legislature shall provide for it. But it is ce: tain that each of these committees, consisting c fifteen members, will require a clerk, and there fore I offer the resolution. The question was put on the resolution of M: Harris and it was declared adopted-ayes 7! noes 26. Mr. ROBERTSON offered the following resoh tion: Resolved, That the Committee on the Right c Suffrage inquire into and report on the expedienc of extending the right of suffrage to all mal white citizens of the age of eighteen years. The question was put on the resolution, and i was declared lost. Mr. BICKFORD offered the following resolution Resolved, That it be referred to Committee Nc 9 on the Finances of the State, &c., to inquire as t, the expediency and propriety of a Constitutiona provision that no property, real or personal, in thi State, shall be exempt from taxation for State county or municipal purposes, except so far as i is made exempt by the laws of the United State or as it is now exempt by laws of this State, hav ing the force or being in the nature of contracts and except as to property owned by the State, o by any county, town, city, or school district in it corporate capacity, and except as to places se apart and used as places of public worship, or ex clusively for charitable purposes. Which was referred to the Committee o0 Finance. Mr. LIVINGSTON offered the following resolu tion: Resolved, That all laws relating to the electivi franchise, shall be uniform throughout the State. Which was referred to the Committee on the Right of Suffrage. Mr. AXTELL moved a reconsideration of the vote by which the resolution offered by him ii reference to county judges, &c., was declared lost Which motion was ordered to lay over unde the rule. Mr. OPDYKE offered the following resolution Resolved, That the Committee on Educatiox be instructed to enquire into the expediency o inserting a provision in the Constitution makinE education compulsory. The question was put on the resolution of Mr Opdyke and it was declared adopted. Mr. ALVORD-Mr. President: Having ver3 serious doubts whether members generally un derstood the resolution of the gentleman fron Albany, [Mr. Harris] which provided for clerks for certain committees, I move a reconsideratior of the vote by which the resolution was adopted Which motion was ordered to lay over undei the rule. Mr. BICKFORD offered the following resolu tion: n- Resolved, That it be referred to Committee No. 2, ie on the Legislature, its organization, &c., to inquire of as to the expediency and propriety of providing is for the election of 180 members of the Assembly and of 45 members of the Senate; 144 of the al members of Assembly to be elected in districts in entitled to elect not less than three nor more than ie six members, and the other 36 to be elected for il the State at large, as personal representatives, r- each elector throughout the State to be entitled to if vote for one personal representative in the Asseme- bly, and the 36 receiving the highest number of votes, to be elected; also, each elector throughout r. the State to be entitled to vote for one personal 2, representative in the Senate, and the 9 persons receiving the largest number of votes, to be elected; i- and the other 36 Senators to be elected in districts entitled to elect one Senator only. )f Which was referred to the Committee on the y Legislature, its Organization, &c. e Mr. SILVESTER pursuant to previous notice offered the following resolution: it Resolved, That Rule 32 be amended by adding as subdivision 9 the following:: " Such ladies as may be invited by any mem). bers, but such right of invitation to cease wheno ever the sofas are filled." i Mr. SILVESTER — Mr. President, I desire s simply to say that while the rules were under I, consideration, I offered an amendment similar to it the one suggested, but which was not adopted by s the Convention. I hope- The PRESIDENT-The motion is not debata-; ble. The question is on the adoption of the resor lution. s Mr. ALVORD-I believe, Mr. President, act cording to our rules, although they have not yet been laid on our desks, that in order to change a rule, the vote of a majority of the members of the a Convention is required. Mr. PRESIDENT —It requires two-thirds of - those present or a majority of all the members. Mr. ALVORD-Then the sense of the Convene tion cannot be taken except by ayes and noes. Mr. A. J. PARKER moved to lay the resolution e on the table. Which was carried. e Mr. M. H. LAWRENCE-Two days since I i offered a resolution proposing that a committee of;. seven be appointed, whose duties should be to r investigate into the existence of superfluous offices. A complaint is frequently made that the: people of this State are paying taxes for needless offices. It was with a view of entering upon an f inquiry into that subject that I offered this resolution for the appointment of such a committee. I think that in the report of the Committee of Six-.teen, they have not provided for any appropriate committee for that purpose. Now, I have the r honor to represent an agricultural district, and it is quite a common complaint that we have a host a of needless offices, the existence of which imposes s additional taxation upon the State. My constitu1 ents are able and willing to pay all necessary ex-.penses for their governmentr The PRESIDENT-There is no question before the Convention. Will the gentleman make a motion in reference to his resolution. Mr. M. H. LAWRENCE-My motion is to take I I I i 81 if a 1 S a i.: 103 the resolution from the table. The President of the Convention of 1846 stated that one of the great works which had been accomplished by that Convention was the abolition of a host of useless offices. I suppose it would be an appropriate field of inquiry in this Convention to ascertain whether any superfluous offices now exist. It was with a view of such an investigation that I offered the resolution proposing this inquiry. I do it because there is no proper committee to pursue an inquiry into the subject. The SECRETARY proceeded to read the resolution of Mr. Lawrence, as follows: Resolved, That the Chair appoint a committee of seven, whose duty it shall be to examine into and report to this Convention what offices, if any, may be abolished without detriment to the public service, and especially of those created by law since the revision of the Constitution of 1846. Mr. HARRIS-I hope that such a committee will not be appointed. It is a very important and appropriate inquiry suggested by the gentleman, but which may very well be referred to the Committee on Towns, Counties and Villages, their Organization, Government and Powers. If there be any useless offices as the gentleman has suggested, the matter can be referred to that committee. I move, therefore, that the subject be referred to the Committee on Towns and Counties. Mr. GREELEY-Mr. President I trust not. There is a body called the Board of Regents of the University, and I wish an inquiry instituted as to the utility of that body. That subject could not be properly referred to the Committee on Towns and Counties, and I hope that the Convention will order an inquiry made to see what offices can be dispensed with, and which could not be properly inquired into by the Committee on Towns and Counties. Mr. HARRIS —Really my friend from Westchester, [Mr. Greeley,] has industriously found out that there is a set of State officers that are not provided for by the committees at present appointed. I suppose that all these State officers have been provided for by these committees, but the Regents of the University. If the gentleman chooses to raise a committee with reference to the Board of Regents, I shall have no objection; but it seems to me that that is the only case which is not provided for. I hope that the inquiry asked for by the resolution of the gentleman from Yates, [Mr. M. H. Lawrence,] will go to the Committee on Towns and Counties, and their government. Mr. M. H. LAWRENCE-With all due respect to the gentleman from Albany [Mr. Harris], I had in my mind an entirely different class of officers. As I said before, the President of the Convention of 1846, stated the fact that they had secured the safety of the school fund. I have my doubts, Mr. President, whether that fund is secure, for that money raised from the several counties is in the hands of one hundred and twenty different officers, and rumor has it, the fund is not altogether safe. It was with a view to the entrance upon this inquiry that I offered the resolution, which I think is proper, and I think the people of this State will recognize this as a proper body to investigate these abuses, if they do exist. And with all due respect to the gentleman from Albany [Mr. Harris], I think the matter does not pertain to the Committee on Towns and Counties, for the officers I had in view do not belong to towns and counties, they are State officers, and are appointed by the executive or otherwise. Mr. CLINTON-Mr. President; I am a little surprised, unless perhaps I misunderstood the gentleman from Albany [Mr. Harris]. I have no doubt but the Board of Regents of the University of the State are, in one sense, an antiquated body, but they certainly have proved to be a useful body, and a body which, from its very commencement down to this day, has been composed of honorable gentlemen who have served the State and the cause of education without compensation. I would ask the gentleman from Albany, [Mr. Harris] whether the inquiry as to that body, and as to its utility, and whether it is desirable to continue or do away with it, is not referable to, or properly inquirable into, by the Committee on Education and the funds relating thereto. They have the charge of a portion at least of the funds relating to education, and they have much to do with the management, direction and incorporation of the academies and colleges of this State. Whatever I may think of the body itself, their functions are high and honorable and I am surprised to find the gentleman from Albany [Mr. Harris] characterizing it as antiquated, and treating it as though he considered it a worthless body. Mr. HARRIS-Mr. President, I certainly have no intention to cast any dishonor upon that antiquated body called the Regents of the University. It is an antiquated body, but it is composed of excellent, venerable and useful men. I have as high respect for them as the gentleman from Erie [Mr. Clinton]. I intended no disrespect to them whatever. I have long thought, however, that the organization might be greatly improved; I think so now, but I doubt whether it is a matter coming properly within the province of this body. I think it is a matter rather for the Legislature to consider than for this Convention; but I agree with the gentleman from Erie [Mr. Clinton], if there is anything to be done in respect to it, it properly belongs to the Committee to which he has alluded,-the Committee on Education. As to all the other State officers, the subject is properly referred to other committees, and I think the gentleman from Yates [Mr. M. H. Lawrence] will find his object accomplished through the Committee on Towns and Counties, and their government. I cannot imagine that there is any case which is not already provided for by our committees, and 1 hope my motion will prevail. Mr. MERRITT-I move to amend by substituting another committee. The PRESIDENT-A motion to amend is not now in order; the question is upon the motion of the gentleman from Albany [Mr. Harris.] Mr. CHURCH-I think there is no subject properly brought before the Convention, which is not already within the jurisdiction of some committee appointed by this body. I am opposed to the multiplication of other committees, it will lead to inextricable confusion in the business of this Convention, and I move therefore to lay this motion upon the. table. 104 The question was then put on the motion of women of the city of Utica, asking for equal rights Mr. Church and it was declared carried. for men and women. Mr. MERRITT moved that the Convention The memorial was referred to the Committee adjourn, on the Right of Suffrage. Mr. PRESIDENT-The Chair desires respect- The Chair presented the following communicafully to call the attention of the gentlemen of the tion: Convention to Rule 11, which the Secretary will ALBANY, June 18th, 1867. read. Hon. W. A WHEELER. The SECRETARY proceeded to read the rule as Dear Sir:-The undersigned in behalf of the followrs:Dear Sir:-The ndersigned in behalf of the "Rule 11. When a motion to adjourn, or for a Common Council, would most respectfully ask of recess, shall be affirmatively determined, no mem- your honorable body, the use of the Assembly ber or officer shall leave his place till the adjourn- Chamber, for the celebration of the approaching ment or recess shall be declared by the President." anniversary of American Independence. The question was then put on the motion of OScAR L. HAscy, Chairman Common Council Committee. Mr. Merritt, and it was declared carried. Cmon Council Committee. Mr. E. BROOKS moved that the request be granted. Which was carried. THURSDAT June 20, 167. Mr. FRANCIS -I move that the Convention The Convention met at eleven o'clock A. M. take up the report of the Select Committee, in Prayer was offered by the Rev. CHARLES reference to the publication of the debates and GRAVES. proceedings of the Convention, in two of the The Journal of yesterday was read by the Albany newspapers. Secretary. The question was then put on the motion of Mr. SMITH-To the resolution I had the honor Mr. Francis, and it was declared to be carried. of introducing yesterday there was an amendment Mr. FRANCIS-Mr. President, the gentleman offered, and the Journal makes me to have accept- from Ontario [Mr. McDonald] opposes the publied it. That is a mistake; I did not accept it, cation of the report of the proceedings and debates because the resolution as amended did not express of this Convention, in the Albany Journal and the my views. Argus on the terms proposed, on the ground that The Journal was ordered to be corrected in that there is no authority in law for such an arrangerespect. ment. It is true, sir, that the law is silent on the There being no further objection, the Journal subject of newspaper publication of this matter. was declared approved. We assume so much as this, and simply recommend The PRESIDENT-The Chair desires to make an appropriation by the next Legislature to meet the following explanation: what is deemed a proper, if not necessary expense. In the final completion of the list of standing This Convention, I suppose, possesses certain committees announced yesterday, the name of Mr. inherent powers not specifically defined by legisEly, of Monroe, who had been assigned a position, lative enactment-powers requisite to the convewas inadvertently omitted. The Chair deeply nient arrangement and dispatch of its business. regrets the error, and by the consent of the Con- The people have delegated to the Convention a vention, and of Mr. Hand, of Broome, places Mr. higher authority than the Legislature possesses; Ely upon the Committee "on the Secretary of and to say that it cannot, in the exercise of that" State, Comptroller, &c.," in place of the former authority, proceed a step beyond the powers which gentleman. This explanation and order will be legislation has conferred, is to assume that the entered on the Journal at large. Legislature is superior to the people-that the Mr. CORBETT offered a memorial from the citi- agent is greater than the principal. Bear in mind, zens of Syracuse, asking for the adoption of a con- this Convention was called by the people, not by stitutional provision, securing the right of suffrage the Legislature; the Legislature only undertook to to both men and women. carry into effect the popular will by its subsequent Which was referred to the Committee on the action. Wherein it may have failed to make proper Right of Suffrage. provisions for the carrying on our work, the Mr. FULLER-I desire to present the outlines Convention itself may, I take it, supply the of a plan for the reorganization of the judiciary, deficiency- and, as in this case, recommend an drawn up by an able jurist, late a judge of the Court appropriation by a future Legislature to defray the of Appeals, who was promoted to the bench of necessary expense. But we are told that the pubthat court from the Supreme Court, and who is lication in the newspapers as proposed, will infully acquainted with the facts and workings of volve a needless and very large expense, and the our judicial system in all its branches, and which gentleman from Ontario [Mr. McDonald,] states the plan also has been approved by another ex-judge cost at $14,000, if the proceedings and debates of the Court of Appeals, an eminent jurist. I de- shall comprise matter to the extent of a volume sire that it may be received and referred to the of 1,000 pages of the usual document size. I Committee on the Judiciary. I have it in my power, sir, to correct the genThe memorial was referred to the Committee tleman's statement. By actual measurement the on the Judiciary. 1,000 pages referred to are equal to 572 columns Mr. GRAVES-I desire to present a memorial of the "Albany Journal." For publication in two from Mrs. P. D. Fish and one hundred and eighty papers of the 572 columns at $6.50 each per other citizens, worthy and nut ligent e. 4 1um, we I;rave $i7,e $ as thQ cost, This is 105 little more than one half the estimate of the gentleman, and serves to show that he has based his argument upon erroneous premises. It is insisted that the pamphlet publication by the Convention Printers will serve us better and at much lower rates, and we are assured that the printers will in no event be more than three days behind in placing the debates upon our files. Now I beg leave to differ with this opinion. Even in the publication of the Assembly journals during the sessions of the Legislature, with much less matter than our debates will comprise, the printer has usually been behind from three days to one week, and in some instances a still longer period. Now, bear in mind this matter, equal to eight or ten columns per day, must be put in type, proof read and corrected, then stereotyped and made up and worked in separate book forms. I undertake to say, sir, that, judging from experience, we shall be extremely fortunate if, with the pamphlet publication, we are enabled to keep up our files within four or five days of date. Then again, sir, if we undertake to circulate these pamphlet issues there will probably be a day's delay in mailing, there will be the postage of two cents upon each copy sent, and the matter itself will become stale before it reaches those to whom it may be addressed. Is this the proper method to reach the public mind and inform the people of our doings here? Is it the_ proper course to pursue for our own enlightenment in the great work we have to do? But there is this further consideration that is worthy of attention. Members of this Convention will not all be here during our discussions. Some will be absent not unfrequently for days at a time. Published in the newspapers, the full debates will promptly reach them, and while the subjects discussed are still fresh. The absentees will thus be enabled to instruct themselves in our work, and be better prepared to act and vote intelligently here. We have evidence already as to the promptitude with which publication of the debates is made by the newspapers. With four papers containing the debates delivered to each member of the Convention, all will be abundantly and promptly supplied for present use and future reference. The circulation of the two papers named is not principally nor mainly confined to this locality as has been stated. It reaches every section of the State, and includes every newspaper of this State as exchanges. But the fact still remains that pamphlets are little read, and newspapers are generally read. The pamphlets with the debates, days behind date, would fail to answer our purpose and that of the public, as a means of instruction in the important business of this Convention The newspaper publicity would meet this object, enabling us the better to discharge our duties intelligently, at the same time spreading before the people information of the highest importance, as bearing upon the question of the approval or rejection of the amended Constitution at the ensuing general election. Mr. E. BROOKS-I propose to introduce a proviso to the majority report, to go in at the close of the resolution, to read as follows: Provided, That the expense of printing the tebatea in the two journals named shall not ex14 ceed the sum of $10,000, or $5,000 to the Journal, and $5,000 to the Argus, and provided further that the business and debates shall be published at the latest, within twenty-four hours after each session of the Convention. Mr. FRANCIS —If the gentleman will make the sum $12,000, I will be happy to accept the amendment. Mr. E. BROOKS-Mr.' President; the cost of these debates must depend entirely upon the length of the Convention-the sessions of the Convention. If we are to sit here one hundred and twenty days as has been intimated, or if we are to hold prolonged sessions of the Convention even for one hundred days, probably the sum named would be requisite to pay the expenses of this publication; but I have heard, perhaps incorrectly, that the amendment which I proposed would be satisfactory, and it was with that view that I limited the amount to $10,000. I certainly should be extremely unwilling to put that limitation in the amendment unless I believed it would be a fair compensation for the work to be done. The gentleman from Rensselaer [Mr. Francis], who is a publisher and a printer, and who has given very considerable time and attention to this subject necessarily knows more of the subject than I do, and, therefore, at his suggestion, believing it not to be an unfair one, I will accept the modification. Mr. GREELEY-I have listened with great attention to the report and also to the remarks of the Chairman of the Committee, for some light upon one question of considerable importance, and that is, supposing these debates to be as we hope they may be, such as the people of the State of New York will wish to read, what reason is there for paying at all for their publication? That question I do not find answered, either in the report, or the speech of my excellent friend from Rensselaer [Mr. Francis]. In my judgment if the matter to be printed is such as the people want to read, they will pay for printing it. If either of the journals in Albany had one month ago advertised that it would publish full and accurate debates of the proceedings of this Convention for a certain price-the usual price of that journal-say for three months, I am very confident that the additional subscriptions would be abundantly sufficient to defray this cost. For, Mr. President, I understand this to be the state of facts, that we of the Convention, as we have been virtually instructed through the Legislature, have elected a Stenographer, competent, prompt and able, who reports at our expense, and not that of the journals of Albany, the debates of this body. It is our report, paid for by the people of the State of New York, that these journals will publish, if they publish any; they simply take the report-(as is very proper and entirely rightand I hope it will be always open to every journal) - for which the people pay, which we have employed competent persons to make, and they print it in their journals, it having cost them nothing up to the time it is prepared for the preas It seems to me if we are to furnish this matter ready for the press, and the people of the State of New York, want to read it, and these two Journals arecirculatedAmost excluaively withinthe borders 106 of this State, and taken I may say almost entirely by people who would be likely to take an interest in these proceedings, I cannot comprehend the necessity or the justice of any payment whatever. If it were published, say in a New York City journal, the publisher might say " My circulation is mainly or largely in other States than New York, and your proceedings will not interest my subscribers or readers,"-and I think there might be a color of right in this statement. But I think there should be no claim to compensation for printing matter of interest to the great body of their readers; but for these two journals I say, and I trust with sufficient humility, that I believe the proceedings of this Convention will be as interesting to their readers as almost any other matter with which they can fill their columns, and, therefore, I conclude if we furnish the matter ready for the press and they print it, the bargain will be a fair one on our part and favorable to them, in case we give them no money and ask them for none. In that conviction, Mr. President, and believing that we should be very careful in expending money which is not provided for by the act calling us together; believing that only a very urgent necessity should constrain us to expend so much as $12,000 for the purpose of enlightening a very moderate portion of the people of the State in regard to our doings, I object to the resolution, and I ask the ayes and noes on its passage. Mr. FULLER-This subject of the publication of the debates of this Convention, is one of considerable importance, and one upon which I, being ignorant of these matters, desire more light. I do not understand that this Convention have, as yet, made any order upon this subject, or have contracted for the publication in any form. I understand that the report of the committee contemplates their publication only in these two daily papers. If that is the only publication there is to be made of the debates of this Convention, I am free to say that while I should desire to read them, from day to day, yet it will be a very unsatisfactory way in the end, and I desire that the debates of this Convention, which will be, in importance, second only to its journal, shall be in some more permanent and some more accessible form, to which we may have recourse hereafter for the construction of the Constitution which we may adopt, as well as, from day to day, during the sitting of this Convention. It seems to me this is the more important publication of the two, and it is very desirable that the debates of this convention, which will be important not only to us, but to those who are to come after us, and to courts and Legislatures, should be published in a permanent form, as were the debates of the last Convention, and also in a convenient form. Mr. DUGANNE-I would answer the gentleman who spoke last, [Mr. FullerJ by informing him that a contract has been made by the Comptroller for the publication of the debates of the Convention in a pamphlet form, and that this press publication in the daily papers, is added to the original contract, or is a supplementary contract to be made by them. Mr. FULLER-Then I would like to make this further inquiry, whether this cannot be done without all this additional expense, Iby a simple transfer of the type of the papers into the pamphlet form. Mr. ALVORD-I understand the fact to be mainly as stated by the gentleman from New York [Mr. Duganne,] but still it wants this explanation -that the contract is to be made by the Comptroller of this State, in case the Convention require it; that we have got to act affirmatively in regard to the matter before these debates can be printed at all. The question seems to me to resolve itself simply into the question, whether or not we shall go outside of the liberty and the power which has been given to us by the Legislature with regard to this matter, and undertake to make a debt for a future Legislature to pay. It strikes me that the gentleman from Westchester [Mr. Greeley] is emminently right, that if these papers in Albany do not publish these debates they will be the losers, and that they can well afford to take from the hands of our Stenographer each and every day this matter, without any expense to them in its preparation, and put it in their daily journals as a means of their support among those who are the patrons of the papers, and it would be invidious on our part to select the two papers of this locality, because they happen to be here, and pay them six thousand dollars a piece, for publishing these debates, when as a matter of necessity they are so curtailed in their circulation, that there are many papers in the interior of the State that absolutely go to more people than the papers of this city which are here spoken of. But, above all else, I am opposed, except when driven by absolute and sheer necessity, to violating, in any regard, the financial programme laid down by the Legislature. The people of this State have complained over and over and over again, in regard to the Legislature itself, that either by implication or by direct violation of law, they have gone on and made expenditures of large sums of money, under the name of the contingent expenses of the two houses in their annual sessions, to such an extent that it is necessary, if we do our duty here, for us, by absolute constitutional prohibition, to put an end to it. We shall, with a very bad grace, come forward and undertake thus to tie up subsequent legislation in that direction, if we commence here at the very outset to violate the principle ourselves. I, therefore, am decidedly in favor, so far as this matter is concerned, that we should live within the limits of the law, which has, to a certain extent-not created us here, I agree-but limited the power of our expenditure, and that we should go on and order, as we necessarily must, under the contract made by the Comptroller, that there shall be a certain amount published of ourdebates in a certain form, and laid upon our tables from day to day, and leave to these local papers of the city of Albany the option to print, as a part of the matter for the general benefit of their patrons, each and every day these proceedings, which we thus give to them without charge. Mr. MURPHY -This question is presented tc the Convention in two lights; first, as to the power of the Convention; and second, as to the expediency of printing in the form proposed. I am decidedly in favor of the report of the 107 committee, for reasons which I will state, in view of these two considerations. Undoubtedly, the Comptroller will not pay for the expenses now proposed, because his warrant for the payment of moneys is the law under which we are acting, and he will pay only so much money as is authorized by this law to be paid by him, as directed by this Convention; but it must be obvious to this Convention, that we are not to be restricted in the performance of our duties, in carrying out these matters which have been entrusted to us by the people under this law. Whether the Comptroller will pay is one question; and whether this Convention may, or should contract beyond, is another question. We have ordered these partitions to be taken down, and have directed the Secretary to have them taken away. It certainly has been attended with some expense which is a proper charge, which must be paid, and which undoubtedly will be paid. We ordered yesterday that clerks should be appointed to certain committees. That expense is not contemplated by the act, and yet, if this Convention deem it necessary and proper that these Committees should have clerks, no one can doubt the propriety of their being paid, or that the Legislature will make provision for their payment. The point is this; where the people have ordered this Convention to assemble to do their duty, they have, also resolved that its members shall have all the power necessary for the proper performance of its duty. We, therefore, come back to the consideration of the second point-Is this necessary? Is this proper? Is it required for the convenience of this Convention, and for the performance of its duties? The point has not been presented in my view upon the ground upon which it has struck my mind. It is not whether these debates will, t)y means of these local newspapers, go to the people at large, or not. For I suppose that, by any newspaper publication and distribution, these debates will not reach the people in time to react in any manner upon the action of this Convention. It is not, therefore, for that purpose that I support this resolution, and deem this necessary for our own convenience. It is impossible, from the way we are seated in this Convention, as well as for other reasons, to know exactly all that may be said in the course of debate; some of our discussions here will be continued for days, and on important questions, perhaps for weeks, and it is proper for the true consideration of the questions that we should know all that is said, and that all points should be met, we should have before us the words as they may fall from the members. I wish to know and to be able to read for myself when I shall not have heard the remarks of the member or delegate, what he has said, and by means of this simultaneous publication in the newspapers I shall know what I should not be able to find out otherwise. The publication of these debates in this form, I regard also as important in another point of view. I think if we have the full debates published at the time, members will be more careful in what they say, and, it will have a wholesome influence upon the tone and character of our debates. If they are not published in this form, and we merely have a summary in the news papers of what members may say, we shall leave it, in the first place, for correspondents to caricature what may be said; and in the second place, we shall often have the precise point of the speaker, and perhaps, his statements, misrepresented. But it is said that the Comptroller has provided that these debates shall be published in pamphlet form, which will obviate the necessity of the proposed publication. I apprehend this publication in pamphlet form will not be on our desks as promptly as the newspapers, because with the newspapers it is a very necessity, to appear by a certain hour; so that they will be in every member's hands at the breakfast table, and he will know what has been said the day before, in consequence of the rule which prevails with regard to the publication of newspapers. Not so with these documents, which may come to us one, two, three, four or five days after the debate has taken place. Another point of view is, with regard to the expense. If it will be less expensive to print it in pamphlet form, I think we may obviate the objection which arises from the consideration that we should have this in pamphlet form, as well as in this newspaper form, by making some arrangement with the printers to have the matter in their columns transferred to pamphlet form at a much less rate than has been contracted for by the Comptroller. This is not an unusual thing; the Congress of the United States publishes its debates at its own expense in the Congressional Globe and I do not know why we may not do the same. In all the views of this question, therefore, I shall sustain this report. Mr. BARKER-I move to amend the resolution by striking out all after "resolved," and inserting the following: "That the Comptroller and Secretary of State be requested to contract with two daily papers published in the city of Albany, to publish daily reports of the proceedings and debates of this Convention, as furnished by the stenographer, providing the same can be contracted for at just and reasonable rates, and not exceeding in the entire amount twelve thousand dollars." The objection to adopting the resolution, as reported by the committee, seems to be based upon the idea that this Convention has not the power to make this recommendation, or incur this debt. I concur somewhat in that sentiment, but it seems to me that, by the provision of the 8th section of the act, the power is conferred upon the Comptroller and Secretary of State, and that they are vested with the discretion to decide what printing is necessary for the use of this body, and, with that view, I have offered this amendment. I will read the 8th section, as my argument seems to be suggested by that. " Sec. 8. The Comptroller and Secretary of State are hereby authorized and required to receive proposals and make contract, for all the printing necessary for the said Convention, under the provisions of this act, and all such printing shall be done under that contract. Such proposals shall be called for on public notice by advertisement as they shall determine.' It seems to me it was the intention of the Legislature that these two State officers should decide what printing is necessary, and if this body requests them to make a contract of this character, they.wil concur in the suggaetion, and we shall 108 thereby relieve ourselves of the delicate question of them take it merely because of their desire to which some gentlemen have raised, ascertain the state of the market in this locality, Mr. A. J. PARKER-Mr. President, I should and without any regard to what may be otherprefer the resolution as reported by the com- wise contained in the paper,-that to those men mittee, to the substitute offered by the gentleman is confined the entire knowledge of this from Chautauqua [Mr. Barker], though I should whole matter, or else our local papers, taking be most willing to vote for it in that form, if the these papers in exchange, are compelled, at their other cannot be adopted. I concur entirely in own expense, to go on and set up the type, taking what has been said by the gentleman from Kings the debates from these papers, and put them into [Mr. Murphy], in regard to the power of this their localjournals,which are distributed broad-cast Convention to incur such expense as is necessary all over the country, in order that they may reach for the performance of our duties. Certain it is the entire mass of the people. Why should we we cannot be trammelled by any legislative go on and pass a resolution that the papers here action. Of course we must all agree with shall be paid six thousand dollars apiece for what he has said in regard to the convenience, and publishing these reports from the hand of the that these reports will be of use in understanding stenographer? Why not also say to each and from day to day the course of debate, and from every one of the local papers of the counties, " if the light it will give us as to the votes we are to you will go on in addition thereto and publish east. And I beg leave to add another considera- them in your papers you shall be paid five or tion, which strikes me as important, and which I six thousand dollars apiece I" If it is for the purthink should induce us to vote for this resolution, pose of giving information to the people, it seems and that is this: This Constitution is to be sub- to me this is more appropriate and more proper mitted to the people at the November election. than the original resolution. Then Sir, there is They are then to pass upon it, and they should another thing; the gentleman from Chautauqua have, before that time, not only the proposed Con- [Mr. Barker,] has offered an amendment here. I Stitution itself, but they should be informed think lie misunderstands the purport and intent, with regard to the whole course of de- and the absolute meaning of this eighth section. bate that has taken place in the dis- It is this-that the Comptroller ard Secretary of cussions of the Convention; and I know of no State are not the proper persons to judge of what form in which this information will be so likely is the necessary printing of the Convention, but to be given to the people as in the mode pre- the Convention having determined that matter, scribed, if these debates are published verbatim, they have advertised for proposals and entered as proposed, in the two leading papers of this into a contract with parties for the performance city, each representing one of the great political of that duty for the Convention. It also strikes parties of the State, and which if thus spread me, and in fact I think I have been so informed, throughout the entire State will be brought within that the Comptroller and Secretary of State have the reach of every intelligent voter, who may already made the contract authorized and required wish to be informed of the reasons that have by the eighth section of the law giving form and influenced delegates in the votes they have given. complexion to this Convention, and I will leave it I believe it is tile best mode of informing the pub- to the lawyers to determine this simple proposilie mind and qualifying it to judge of the wisdom tion which I make to them. If they have made of the conclusions to which we may arrive. The this contract, which says in terms that they shall expense has been spoken of, but it seems to me, do all the printing necessary for the Convention, that is trifling, compared with the importance of will it not be that these contractors, on their having this whole matter understood by the peo- part, have got a vested right; and if you unple, and of enabling them to judge of the pro- dertake to take this printing out of their power, priety of these clauses of the Constitution, with under that contract, and put it into these papers, all the light we have had in considering will they not have an equitable right, at least, them and m voting upon them. I shall, there- if not a legal one-because they cannot sue a fore, Mr. President, very cheerfully support this sovereign State-to demand that all the profits proposition as it now stands, without regard to arising out of this printing should result to the substitute of the gentleman from Chautauqua them, and should be paid to them, under the [Mr. Barker] because, by that amendment, some contract they have made with the Comptroller little time will elapse in order to advertise for and Secretary of State. Therefore, I am of the proposals, and it is high time that these debates opinion, that we should not proceed further in this should be laid on our tables daily. direction, until we shall have had before us, from Mr. ALVORD —I wish the gentlemenwho urge the Comptroller and Secretary of State, a copy the adoption of the resolution reported by the of that contract or agreement, which they have Committee, to answer me this one simple ques- made with the printers, to do the necessary tion: The Albany Argus and the Albany Journal printing for this Convention, to see whether it are taken in the county of Onondaga to the extent, does not, in the broad terms of the section itself, probably, of seventy-five copies of both-I possibly compel those contractors to hold themselves in may have put it too higl, but I have not probably readiness to perform all the printing we shall got it very much too low. Now, what is the order. If it does sir, it strikes me that there can result in my county? This proposed publication be no question whatever, but what these printers is for the purpose of giving information to the peo- will have an equitable.lien upon all the profits pie from day to day in regard to the debates of this which may arise to these papers that have this Convention. The result is simply this, with re- outside printing. gard to ta seventy-iveo who take it —anld many Mr. BARKER-I desire to ask the gentleman 109 from Onondaga [Mr. Alvord] a question. Suppose this Convention directs the printing of a report, then I suppose the Comptroller and Secretary of State are to provide for that printing; is that your understanding of it? Mr. ALVORD-My understanding is, that the Comptroller and Secretary of State have made a contract of this kind-a contract with A. B. that he will hold himself in readiness to do and perform all the necessary printing. The contract requires the printing of atl matters that shall be ordered by the Convention, without any reference to reports, or anything else; and they shall have the privilege of doing the work. Mr. BARKER —That, I apprehend, does not take from them the power to make a further contract for printing, in the mode and manner which this Convention will suggest, and I think it is the duty of these public officers to follow the suggestions of this Convention in that direction. It can be easily arrived at by the provisions of the same section, by advertising for proposals, which can be done in a few days' notice, and the next section has provided for the fund out of which it may be paid. Mr. CORBETT- I think that section 8 contemplates an entire contract, how the work of printing shall be done, and I think gentlemen are mistaken when they assume that the committee propose to contract with the two papers named in the report. A recommendation is not a contract. These two papers come here and state that they will publish the, debates of this Convention for the sum named, and that they will take the risk of getting their pay from the Legislature. There is no contract whatever; they simply enter into an arrangement, we, on our part, agreeing to recommend to the Legislature to pay this sum. That is all there is of it. I do not see that there is any violation of the eighth section in the recommendation of the committee. Yesterday the gentleman from Ontario [Mr. McDonald] said that the papers named in the resolution had not a very extensive circulation in his locality, but I trust in the matter of circulation of newspapers, and perhaps in the matter of reading them, the village which the gentleman has the honor to represent will not be taken as an index to other portions of the State. My colleague from Onondaga [Mr. Alvord] states that seventy-five copies of the Journal are taken in Syracuse, and probably as many of the Argus. Mr. ALVORD-I said of both. Mr. CORBETT-I think the gentleman is mistaken. I think that at least fifty copies of each paper are taken at Syracuse, and a copy of each is in all our public libraries, and each paper has a large number of subscribers in Syracuse, beside all the newspapers published in Syracuse receive the Argus and Journal in exchange, and in that way the entire county receives the benefit of the news. With regard to pamphlets-they are mainly for the use of the Convention. We have eight hundred copies ordered for our own use, and supposing we mail six hundred to our constituents, there is an expense of $12 a day for postage, to say nothing of the manual labor of preparing these documents for mailing. If the character of the discussions here is at all proportionate to the interest and the importance of the subjects diicussed, the people ought to know something about them. It is barely possible that the interest in the doings of the Convention will not be permanent, and if so, I wish the people to have these debates while the interest is at its height. Beside, sir, we shall pay the Stenographer a large sum of money for his services here, and we do not want this large pile of manuscript lying useless for one hundred days, or as long as the Convention may remain in session. We want the public to know something of what is going on here, and we cannot give the requisite information by the small number of eight hundred pamphlets. I am therefore decidedly in favor of the report of the Committee. Mr. GOULD —With a view of enabling members of the Convention to ascertain precisely the terms of the contract, which has been made by the Comptroller and the Secretary of State, I move that this subject be laid upon the table. The question was put on the motion of Mr. Gould it was declared to be lost. Mr. FERRY-Since this Committee was authorized to make this report, the Convention have appointed a Committee on Contingent Expenses, and it seems to me that this is a subject which is eminently appropriate to be referred to that.Committee, and I make a motion that this whole matter be referred to the Committee on Contingent Expenses. Mr. E. BROOKS-I hope, Mr. President, that motion will not prevailThe PRESIDENT-The Chair would inform the gentleman that a motion to refer is not debatable. Mr. E. BROOKS-May not a reason be given for not adopting the motion, without trespassing on the rules of the Convention? The PRESIDENT-It may, if it does not involve the merits of the question. Mr. E. BROOKS-I will not go into the merits of the question at all; I simply wish to say to the Convention, we must meet this question now, or hereafter. We have had a long debate upon it; we understand it now, and we had better dispose of it at once. The question was then put on the motion of Mr. Ferrv, and it was declared to be lost. Mr. NELSON-It has been suggested, that the Convention must meet this question as it presents itself. It occurred to my mind, not as an editor or professional man, that it would be well to determine first, before voting upon this question, whether this publication shall be made. It is suggested by some gentleman, that it ought to be made for the convenience of the members of the Convention. It is also suggested, that it is well for the publication to be made for the benefit and advantage of the people who may read it. Looking at it in this two-fold view, so to speak, which will then be most convenient for members of the Convention? It must be apparent I think that the most convenient manner or mode of its being placed in the hands of the meimbers of the Convention, is in the public newspaper, which reaches us, as has been suggested, every morning at the breakfast table; at all events it will reach every member, before he comes into this Convention and he will be enabled to review everthing wbhih has 110 been said on the previous dayin the Convention. But to my mind the most important aspect of this question is that which affects the public, We know, in looking back over the votes which have been cast in reference to this Convention, that the public have taken really but very little interest in it. The question whether a body of men should be elected to alter, or fo propose alterations in the fundamental law of the State, called out, in some of the districts, not a single vote of one of the parties. In the counties of Orange and Sullivan. I am told that but one ticket vas voted for. So throughout the great body of the State, the vote, which was perhaps as important as any which has been cast within the last twenty years, was so small that it has even suggested the inquiry whether this Convention is legally and properly here. Although that question has not been passed upon,. yet, adopting the old rule, which is pretty well established, that bodies never lose any of their jurisdiction by their own consent, I will assume that the Convention is properly here. And I think we may assume another thing; that it is the desire and opinion of the gentlemen composing this Convention, that their action will do some good, and be of some advantage to the future prosects and history of the State; and that it will be important in the future to the people of the State who adopt the action of this Convention. Knowing, as we do, the little interest the public have taken in this question, would it not be well, when you send to the people who live in the rural districts and the cities, the result of' that action, that you send also the words, reasons and arguments which have induced the action you may take, and led to the results at which you may arrive. There is one other question-that is the question of expense. I take it for granted if it is well to publish these debates, those having charge of such publication will so order and direct the matter that it will be in the cheapest form, and at the same time so as to satisfy the wants of the people. It is not alleged or claimed, if I correctly understood the report of the Committee, that there is any power in the Convention to create a legal obligation for the payment, but it is proposed by the gentlemen at the head of these papers, that they take upon themselves the risk of publishing these reports, and submit it to a future Legislature to pass upon, or to ratify the action of the Convention and pay the bill. It is suggested that but few of the people of the different counties will receive the Albany papers, and it is stated that in the county of Onondaga there are but seventy-five subscribers to these papers. If that is so, and these seventy-five get them, then I would like to ask the gentleman from Onondaga [Mr. Alvord] if he thinks that by any means the pamphlets would reach any more than the same number of persons? The people who feel an interest in this Convention, editors, publishers, and the public newspapers, will know, or have a right to think, that the local papers where the Convention meets, will give accurately the occurrences and debates of this Convention. If that is so, and seventy-five copies go to the county of Onondaga, reaching all the newspaper offices of the county; and five, six, or ten go the county of Dutchess, and so on throughout the State, what ever is of interest or importance, the local papers will publish and send forth, so that every single voter in the State will understand exactly what the Convention has done and the reasons and arguments by which the Convention was induced to do it. Mr. CLINTON-I have listened to this argument with great interest. I am opposed to the passage of this resolution in any form; but if it is to be passed in substance in any form, I prefer that the course pointed out by the gentleman from Chautauqua [Mr. Barker] be pursued. It strikes me that is the legal and proper form. As to the merits of the question, I am not convinced that the publication of these debates in these two newspapers will increase the amount of information, and result to the benefit of the people of the State, and will voluntarily and of necessity and with a view to their own circulation and respectability, be diffused by the papers throughout the State. Mr. President, there is another objection, to this matter in my mind; as I understand the report of the Committee, the Secretary of State and the Comptroller in the determination of what is necessary in the way of printing, as provided by the law under which we have assembled, have made a contract, and they have provided in that contract for the printing of the debates. The Committee state that under this provision, a contract was made with Weed. Parsons & Co., dated, May 16th, 1867, for the printing of documents, for such a compensation and at such a rate, for the printing of the journal at such a rate and for the printing of the debates at such a rate and in such a form. If we are to have these debates printed and laid upon our tables in this pamphlet form, it strikes me, with all deference to the gentlemen who take the opposite view,that for our use and our purposes, it will be the most convenient form. Then the resolution submitted by the committee requires a thing which under no circumstances could I vote for; but not being in favor of the resolution itself I shall not propose any amendment. I wish to avoid all appearance of evil! I do not wish any imputation, such as we have heard with reference to legislative bodies, to be thrown upon this Convention. We all take our own newspapers; we all take these newspapers every morning and every evening; there are probably very few gentlemen here who do not purchase them. The law also provides that we shall have these debates in this form. This resolution provides, that each of these papers thus singled out, is to receive $6,000 apiece for printing in full these debates;' and shall furnish to each of us, without compensation, two copies of their respective papers. That I cannot vote for. Mr. M. I. TOWNSEND-The consideration which will control my action on this subject, refers especially to the question of my own instruction. The people of the State have sent us here for the purpose cC taking such action as in the light which we should become possessed of, we shall believe will be for the well-being of the State. And I conceive it my duty to obtain here the best information under the circumstances I am able to possess as to the mode in which I shall discharge my duties. I believe that the debates of the Conu 111 vention are among the best modes of instruction ceedings of each day, a legible manuscript report that the minds of the members can resort to for the of such debates and proceedings, if said papers guidance of themselves in the votes which they should desire to publish the same." shall give. Now there is nothing to be done with- Mr. FOWLER-I offer the following amendout some expense. Members sit here and listen to mentdebate, and every minute of debate costs the The PRESIDENT-A further amendment is State money, and yet no gentleman will be- not now in order, there being two amendments lieve that we are doing a wrong to the State in already pending. putting the State to the expense of the Convention Mr. McDONALD-I do not rise to argue this listening to a reasonable and well intended dis- question, but simply to explain and state some cussion of matters that come before it. If then it facts. Since the resolution offered by the gentleman be right to put the State to the expense of from Columbia [Mr. Gould], to lay the resolution listening, and have the members listen to pro- on the table in order to procure copies of the tracted discussions which must necessairly ensue contracts, has been voted down, it would be here, I take it, it is not more wrong to have these proper to state what the contract contains, for I discussions put in a shape by which the people have seen it. The contract as set forth by the and members will be instructed as to what has report of the committee provides for three kinds been put forward in this body. It is because I of specified printing. Then there is a provision believe that these debates are necessary to our for miscellaneous printing which the contract instruction, that I shall vote for the adoption of provides shall be paid for at the rates current the report. at the date of the contract in the city of Albany. Mr. SPENCER-With due deference to the Then the contract provides in these words in opinions which has been expressed here as to reference to the debates (and I read from a literal who is to determine upon the necessity of any transcript from the contract): " For debates, each printing that may be required, I desire to sub- 800 copies of eight pages, each page to contain not mit whether these gentlemen who have expressed less than 3,000 ems of brevier and nonpareil type, the opinion that it is to be determined by the to include all charges, $5.88, and for each addiComptroller and the Secretary of State are not tional one hundred copies, of eight pages, one dolmistaken. The language of the act relating to lar." Then there is a provision for documents this subject is this: "The Comptroller and the and then another provision for the Journal. I Secretary of State are hereby authorized and re- hold in my hand a calculation, made by Mr. Parquired to receive propositions and make contracts sons, one of the contractors, in regard to the defor all the printing necessary for the State Conven- bates, which is as follows: 800 copies, of 1,000 tion." This act does not provide that they shall pages, regular order, $735 each; additional 1,000 determine upon the necessity, nor does it leave that copies, of 1,000 pages, $125. That is what the inference. If I correctly understand the language contract contains. I now wish to explain a little of that act, the inference is left that the Conven- in regard to what I read in the Argus of this tion itself shall determine upon what printing is morning. It alleges that I offered a proposition necessary for its purposes. And in accordance to have printed a large number of copies of the with that understanding, the Comptroller and the debates. I offered a resolution which appears on Secretary of State, as I understand, have made a the files and which does not provide for exceedcontract in which they have provided not only ing 600 copies of the debates. The article alleges for a certain class of printing, but for every that the pamphlets are to contain sixteen pages class of printing that could be possibly required each. There is no such provision in the resoluby the Convention - and under one of the clauses tion. The resolution provides only for so many of that contract, as I understand it, the Con- copies under the contract, and the contract fixes vention is authorized to require the printing of a price for eight pages and not sixteen pages. As these debates, and not only the printing of these de- 1 see a representative of the Argus present, [Mr. bates, but printing in the form which is suggested Cassidy,] I will state what I understand the facts under the resolution reported by the committee. to be, and if I am not right he can correct me. I make these remarks merely by way of sug- I understand the facts to be that that contract gestion. in order that gentlemen who have not for printing the debates was let at the low prices carefully considered this subject, may determine at which it was let, because they were intended for themselves by whom this necessity is to be to be published in the newspaper any way, and determined, and without indicating upon my part being published there, the type' could be transwhether I will favor this resolution in either form ferred for publication in the pamphlet, and in proposed or not. that way the contractors could get their pay: Mr. CARPENTER-I do not wish to add one Mr. CASSIDY-There was no such underword to the discussion that has been had upon standing as the gentleman has stated. this question, but I rise simply to offer an amend- Mr. McDONALD-That was the reason stated mont. by the Journal to the Comptroller, not the Argus. The SECRETARY proceeded to read the Mr. FRANCIS - I will say in reference to the amendment as follows: Evening Journal, that the proprietors of that Strike out al after the word "Resolved." and paper have stated distinctly, that under no circuminsert the following: stances will they publish these debates, unless "That the Stenographer of this Convention be, they receive pay for the same, as is now proposed, and he is hereby directed to furnish to the Albany and they were quite anxious, that there should be. Evening Journal and Albany Arg s, within twenty- an early report, so as to settle that question.' four hours, if possible, after the debates and pro- Mr. McDONALD- I only state what I: 112 understood from the Comptroller, that such was stated to him, that the reason of their taking the contract at so low a rate, was that they intended to set the debates up for the paper and they * could then transfer the type, to publish them in pamphlet form. I will further state that the parties who made the award, were a day in determining which was the lowest contract. In getting at the award they had to calculate upon what the Convention might order. If this Convention ordered a certain number of the debates, it would be the lowest contract. If it did not, it would not be, and so they had to calculate upon the probabilities. I understand this as another fact; that each day's proceedings set up in this way are being stereotyped just as they appear in the paper, without amendment or change, to be printed in the pamphlet. I see before me a statement in the Argus that the proceedings and debates of the Constitutional Convention of 1846, were published by both papers. I would ask for information, as I understand the fact to be, that at that time both papers not only published the debates without cost, but furnished their own reporters and paid the entire expense throughout, neither getting one cent from the Convention, nor asking for it. And, although these two papers do not intend to publish the entire debates, they do intend to publish the greater portion of them-at least, so I understand. Now with regard to another matter. There is a clause which gentlemen have forgotten to read. After providing that they shall contract all printing necessary, the law says, "that all such printing shall be done under such contract." If this printing is not necessary it ought not to be done. If it is necessary it should be done under the contract. The contract is let. It is signed by the officers of the State, and I cannot see why the contracting parties on the other side are not at liberty to claim that they are freed from the contract if they see fit to do so. f may say further that I have inquired of several editors and they tell me that they would much prefer the pamphlet edition. I refer to editors in the country. They say that if they have the pamphlet edition they can extract what they desire to publish and then lay the pamphlet on the shelf and if any opposing editor should criticise them they have the pamphlet by them for further reference. The debates are laid out before them and they are ready at any time to be used in the discussion of the subjects involved. But in the case of a daily paper, the. debates would be looked overwhatever was found immediately requisite would be cut out and thenthe paper would be thrown away. These are the considerations which weigh with the men with whom I have advised. But I have no doubt if the two newspapers mentioned choose to publish the debates in their daily issues the people will subscribe for the papers as they did in 1846, and the publishers will be fully recompensedl as they were when they published the debates of th Convention of 1846. The gentleman from Kings [Mr. Murphy] considers that this Conventi a has the power to order this printing to be don Has this Convention any power whatever? Does the gentleman propose to insert in the ontittttion a clause providing that the Albany Argus and the Albany Evening Journal shall be paid for this printing, and that the question whether they shall be paid shall be submitted to the people? Is not every act of this Convention utterly void unless passed upon by the people? All it amounts to is this, that we, a body called to form a new Constitution and nothing else, take it into our own heads to issue an unauthorized certificate of indebtedness to the next Legislature to pay, and before we get through we may put a clause into the Constitution forbidding them to honor it or directing them to dishonor it. I do not propose to be put in that position at all. We have met simply to propose rules to restrain other bodies-would it not be well to set a good example and be restrained ourselves?At the proper time I wish to offer a substitute. Mr. MURPHY-I did not propose, I may say in reply to the gentleman from Ontario [Mr. McDonald] to put into the Constitution a provision that this expense should be paid under authority of an article of the Constitution, or that a proposition in regard to it shall be submitted to the people. The proposition which I presented to the Convention is simply this: that it is not in the power of the Legislature to limit the powers of this body in respect to the performance of its duty. What the Legislature has done has been to pass an enabling act by which the expenses of the Convention can be paid. When they gave to this body the power to form a Constitution or to amend it, they gave to it all the powers necessary for the performance of that duty. And although a legal claim might not be raised against the State, yet certainly an equitable claim would be raised in this case which the Legislature would sanction and pay. It is ridiculous to suppose that the Legislature would say that this Convention must travel in just such a route. Does anybody suppose that they meant that we should not have all the facilities which may be necessary for the purpose of correctly doing our work? Not at all. We who are entrusted with such great power as the forming of a constitution, certainly may be entrusted with the minor power to determine what is convenient and necessary for the performance of our duty. That is the principle which I meant to assert, and which, I think, is incontrovertible. I put this simply upon the ground of its being for the convenience of the Convention. I will state to the gentleman a simple fact called forth by his remark. He states that the debates were published in 1846 by two of the newspapers in this city. They were. There was the Atlas report and the Argus report-reports by two papers on the Democratic side of the House, if I may be permitted to allude to a political designation here. There was a rivalry existing between those papers premonitory to the split which broke up the party two years afterwards. They were anxious to get the start, and I believe that both of them were made nearly bankrupt by the operation. And here is another fact that I desire to call the attention of the gentleman to, that these reports did not contain a faithful account of what transpired in that body. Look into those debates, and you will not find a single syllable in regard to the question of the 113 calling of future conventions, and yet that subject opposed to, because I am opposed to making a was discussed in that body. There was a debate payment in any form for the publication of the upon the subject. I recollect it, and other gentle- debates I do not want to advertise to the people men who are here, and who were members of of this State that our debates are to be so poor that Convention, remember it also. There was and worthless that the journals of Albany quite a discussion as to the language of the pro- cannot afford to print th3m. If they are vision of the Constitution providing for the to be of that character that the printer must calling of future conventions. If we had had be paid to print them, the people will naturthat reported, there would have been some light ally conclude that they cannot afford to read upon and some signification as to what was in- them unless they are paid also. [Laughter.] tended by that provision. You find nothing there. If they are too poor to be printed in journals Then too, those reports are full of errors- which circulate among the people, unless the if I may be allowed such a paradox-full of printing of them is paid for, the legitimate inferomissions. Probably if the debates had been ence will be that the readers should also be paid for fully reported, they would have extended to double being informed of what we have done. The gentlethe size in which they appear in the published man has spoken about the circulation of those jourvolume. I want to have these debates fully re- nals. I live in a county more populous than the ported if possible, and laid upon our desk the day county of Onondaga, which the gentleman [Mr. after they shall have taken place, in order to Alvord] represents. We have there 120,000 inhave any error corrected which may have crept habitants, and yet there is probably not fifty into the report of the Stenographer, and also copies of the Albany Argus and Journal taken in that I may know what may have been said by the county. It seems to me that people among gentlemen who entertain different views from whom I live should not be taxed as largely as myself, and whom I may desire to answer or to they will be if the report of this Committee is acquiesce with if I deem their views just and right adopted, to enlighten people in other parts I say it is impossible that every member snould of the State, and that a more fair and equal know what has taken place in some of the debates. distribution should be made. If twenty copies We are doing this for our own convenience and of the debates are given to each delegate, enlightenment, and instruction, and in that view, I would try to have mine sent to people I repreit is for the benefit of the State at large to give sent to the best advantage forgiving a fair underus full and prompt reports of the debates. For standing of what we are doing. But if the circuwhat is the benefit of having discussion if our ears lation is to be made through the Albany journals, are not open to hear them, and we cannot know and they are to depend upon them to enlighten what is said. I certainly hope the Convention the people, I do not believe that 500 copies will will adopt the report. find their way below the Highlands, although Mr. GREELEY-I shall support the amend- below that point is more than one-third of the ment last proposed by the gentleman from Dutch- population of the State. 1 think that we should ess [Mr. Carpenter] on this floor. I think that deal generously with the publishers of these the proposition is liberal towards the newspapers papers, and in my view, we do so, if we give and is fair towards the people of the State. It them the debates which we have had taken at has been admitted by the gentleman from Kings the expense of the people without cost. For that [Mr. Murphy], who was a member of the former reason I shall support the amendment of the genConvention, that no paper was paid by that Con- tleman from Dutchess [Mr. Carpenter]. vention for the printing of its debates. And I Mr. FRANCIS-As a practical matter, it may may say that no former Convention has paid be well to state the fact that unless this publicamoney either for the reporting of its debates or the tion is provided for as proposed, there will be no printing of them, or its proceedings, in any news- newspaper publication of these verbatim reports paper. We meet here and have provided for of the proceedings that are supplied by the Stenoskillful, able and full reports of our debates grapher. That point is settled. Then with referWe have provided for that at the expense of ence to the question raised by the gentleman the people of the State of New York. Now, are from Westchester [Mr. Greeley], that we are these debates worth printing? They will be very generous to offer a verbatim report of these printed in our documents. at any rate. and the final proceedings, free of cost, to the newspapers for report of our debates will be published for record publication, and that if what we say is worthy of and for reference. Shall they also be published being printed at all, the newspaper publishers will for the present information of the Convention? be glad to receive and publish the reports. When I think they ought to be; and I think that unless the Constitutional Convention of 1846 was held, we are to be exceedingly dull and trivial this the Atlas and the Argus, each as a matter of insummer, if we provide that the debates shall be dividual enterprise, did publish the reports of the skillfully and accurately reported, the leading Convention in extenso, as has been stated, but journals of Albany can very well afford to take their publication involved a loss of many thousand the reports which have been provided at a very dollars, and under the pressure of that experience considerable expense by the people of the State it is not very probable that private enof New York, and publish the debates in their sue- terprise will undertake the publication of ceeding issues without further cost to the people. our proceedings now. Now, as suggested by Hitherto they have done it at their own cost, Gentlemen, if we want these proceedings publish. and now the entire cost of reporting is saved to ed in the newspapers, then we must provide for them. The other amendment offered by the gen- the payment for doing the work, and the terms tleman from Chautauqua [Mr. Barker], I a proposed I considered exceedingly liberal iadeed, 15 114 they being one-half the legal rates of publication. It is for this Convention to decide whether they prefer a publication in pamphlet form, or whether the report shall go into two leading newspapers of this city which go over the entire State, and are received by newspaper editors in every county, and through which the people may be apprised of what we are doing, as our work progresses. This is the practical question for us to decide. Mr. TILDEN-I do not desire to take up any considerable time of the Convention in respect to to this subject matter, but I confess it seems to me desirable that we should attain a somewhat clearer view on one or two questions which have been discussed. Now, in the first place, I think it is quite apparent that the contract entered into by the public officers, although I have not had the opportunity to read that contract, relates merely to what is known as job printing; whereas, the object contemplated by the resolution now pending relates rather more to the publication than to the printing of the proceedings of this Convention. Sir, there are two objects to be attained by the publication proposed. The one, and the most important and primary object is the convenience of the members of this body. Now, it will hap. pen in the course of our proceedings, when the Committees get into full operation, that members will desire, in their attendance upon these committees, to withdraw temporarily from the House, without its formal assent. It will very often happen, also, that we shall be obliged to ask permission of the House, for Committees to sit during the sessions. How is it going to be possible for us to keep up with the current of debate, unless we can have, daily presented to us, a complete, exact and authentic record of the debates and proceedings? I do not see any other mode in which this can be accomplished, and I think that is an object of very grave importance to the proceedings of this body. Sir, it might shorten debate very much if gentlemen could know precisely the position occupied by those who differ in opinion from them; and how far the subject has been discussed when they have not had the opportunity to be present. I would not give much for these reports, if they are to be delayed two, or three or four days. as is usually the case where the attempt is made to submit them in book form. I do not think they would be of much value. I do not know as I would vote for any of the resolutions pending unless there was attached to them the condition which I understand is attached, that we should have daily the reports proposed to be given. I think, that if in the Evening Journal, so far as practicable, and in the Argus of the next day certainly, the entire report of the proceedings of the day can be had, it would greatly facilitate the proceedings of this body. I am in favor, therefore, of that system, and I am in favor of it, without any sort of consideration of generosity to either of these journals in the city of Albany. It is not a case where I should feel at liberty to exercise any generosity. But this is necessary, in my best judgment for the convenience and purposes of, this body. And, sir, it is not very costly. The cost is perhaps, not more than five per cent of the amount authorized to be appropriated for the purposes of this Convention, and I shall not hesitate to apply that amount to an object which I deem among the most beneficial to which we can appropriate any of the funds placed at our command. Sir, a second and subordinate object of the proposed publication is, to inform the people of our proceedings and discussions preparatory to their vote upon the Constitution which we shall frame, in the fall, In respect to that I will simply say that there is a convenience in taking the existing established journals for circulation. If I want to go to Buffalo, I will not wait to build a new railroad to get there, but I will take one that already exists. These journals are established concerns. They have their affiliations everywhere; and though their circulation is not very large among my own constituents compared to our own journals, either in the State or in the country at large, still through this channel we reach all the other journals of the State and country. If I do not prefer to publish these debates in the New York city papers, it is simply because the New York city papers are not printed here,.and because we do not sit in the city of New York. We must take the Albany journals because the Convention sits in Albany, and because the journals are printed in Albany. There is a convenience and fitness in doing it in this mode-in taking the existing methods to meet our wants. Now, sir, if we should have laid on our desks twenty or thirty copies of our debates published in pamphlet form, these have all to be addressed and put in the post office in order to reach our constituents. Even then they would not be found at the libraries, or found by the other journals, or found at those places where people congregate. They would not, in my judgment, pass through the other journals into general circulation throughout the State, and I should fear that our pamphlet copies, as all my experience in similar cases has shown, would be several days behind the proceedings of this Convention, and thus become practically of little value for the members for whose convenience the publication is intended. And it is, sir, because of my belief that we shall find this money one of the most useful appropriations that we can make of the funds at our disposal, that I shall vote in favor of the original resolution as reported by the Committee. Mr. COOKE-Mr. President: It seems to me, sir, that there is one principle involved in this discussion that is worthy of being settled now. When the gentleman from Chautauqua [Mr. Barker] sent up his amendment to the resolution reported by the Committee, the argument was started by the gentleman from Onondaga [Mr. Alvord] that this Convention was barred from taking any action in determining what printing should be done for its purposes. I could not understand until the argument had progressed to a considerable extent how it was that the Secretary of State and the Comptroller had entered into a contract with Weed, Parsons & Co., or any other firm. before the assembling of the Convention, for doing certain printing, and that that was to foreclose all action on the part of the Convention in regard to any printing that it might deem necessary and proper. I have always understood that it was the business of a body like; 1.15 this to determine what record it should make of its own proceedings, and how it should be published. I never supposed that such a body was to be interfered with or controlled by officers who were not connected with it, and particularly under a statute such as we have here. This section 8 provides that the Comptroller and Secretary of State are authorized and required to receive proposals and make a contract for all the printing necessary for the State Convention under tie provisions of this statute. Now, the simple question is. how shall it determine what printing shall be the necessary printing for this Convention? I do not apprehend that the Legislature ever intended to invest this power in these two officers; but it evidently means that whatever this Convention deems necessary and proper printing for its purposes, they shall upon the requisition of the Convention enter into a contract for. It is said that the Comptroller and Secretary of State have contracted for all the printing to be done for this Convention. And it is claimed that the contractors under that contract will be entitled to all the profits of any printing which we may hereafter require, and allot to other publishers. It is enough for us to know that we have a right here to determine these questions for ourselves, and we are not to be directed or controlled by the Comptroller and Secretary of State in that particular. It seems to me, sir, that tle amendment of the gentleman from Chautauqua [Mr. Barker], presents this question in its true light and takes the true position. This Convention has no right to contract a debt against the State for this printing. This Convention can create no liability. It has no power to give the proprietors of these two journals, a demand that they can enforce against the State, and that the Legislature will be required to respect when the claim is presented to them. The Comptroller and Secretary of State have that power. The Legislature intended to place that power to enter into a valid and binding contract, somewhere, and they have done it by this provision ( requiring the Comptroller and the Secretary of t State, upon the requisition of the Convention, to f enter into a contract to do any printing that the t Convention may deem necessary. It may be! said that there is an appropriation made of only $250,000 to cover all the expenses of this Con- ( vention. Is it proper, if that was the Legisla- s lative intent, that the $250,000 should be suffi- t cient for all purposes, including the printing, for t this Convention to go on and pass a resolution, 1: requesting the next Legislature to allow this I claim to newspaper proprietors? Is it not better n to create a sort of moral, honorable debt against c the State for that purpose, than, provided g the expenses of this Convention shall extend ii beyond the $250,000, to leave that deficiency e to be made up in some manner at the dis- h cretion of some future Legislature? All this d Convention can do toward securing the payments of the Evening Journal and Argus for that printing [ will be by its moral influence upon the Legislature. c If we adopt the amendment of the gentleman li from Chautauqua, [Mr. Barker]. whenever the t1 Comptroller and Secretary of State enter into t1 that contract it is binding upon the State, and the T Legislature will have to audit the account. Perhaps this is not the best possible medium of communicating with or reaching the public mind in refard to the proceedings of this Convention. Perhaps these two newspapers will not be capable of sufficiently disseminating the important debates of this Convention. My friend from Dutclless [Mr. Nelson] seems to have fallen into the error of supposing it to be the duty of this Convention to force this information upon the people. I do not exactly like the general tone of the gentleman's remarks. I certainly do not like the logic by which lie came to the conclusion that the original resolution must be supported. He says there was so little interest in the election of delegates to this Convention, that, in some localities, the citizens hardly came out to vote, and that in many instances, only one ticket was run in a district. If that is so-if they were so indifferent to the fact of the Convention, it is reasonable to suppose that they will be somewhat indifferent to itsproceedings. He ought certainly to devise some way by which he can make these indifferent men read the proceedings of this Convention, so as to be able to take final action upon our proceedings by adopting or rejecting the Constitution we shall frame. I feel, sir, that it is necessary to inform the public in some way or manner of the proceedings of this Convention. The time, according to the predictions of many gentlemen upon this floor, which the people will have to deliberate upon the action of the Convention, will be quite short. There will hardly be time enough for a full and elaborate discussion of all the measures proposed by this Convention. It would be well. in my judgment, if the people could be put in possession of the requisite information upon which finally to determine this question. With a view that this information may be afforded, and promptly afforded, I slall support the amendment of the gentleman from Chautauqua [Mr. Barker.] Mr. HALE -I rise merely for the purpose of )btaining information in regard to the contract that has been already made. If I understand the facts aright, a contract has already been made by,he Comptroller and Secretary of State, with Weed, Parsons & Co., for the printing of these lebates for the Convention. The gentleman from )ntario, who spoke yesterday [Mr. McDonald], stated that he had understood from Mr. Parsons hat within three days, at the farthest, after hese debates are had, the printed report can be aid on our desks, and that usually they can be within one or two days. If the contract was nade, as I understand it to have been, before the )rganization of this Convention, I wish to ask the gentleman from Ontario [Mr. McDonald,] why t is that we now, after seventeen days have lapsed since the organization of the Convention, lave not on our files the report of a single days [ebate. Mr. McDONALD-If the gentleman from Essex' Mr. Hale] will allow me, I will state that that ontract does not provide absolutely for the pubication of the debates. It provides the price, if his Convention shall order the publication of he debates, at which they shall be published. 'his Convention has not made any order on the 116 subject; and, therefore, the journals of debates has not been placed upon our desks. In regard to the statement of Mr. Parsons, I will state just what I understood from him. I went there to frame a resolution, at his dictation. He said that within three days after the approval of the debates they could get them out and have them placed upon our desks, no matter how long the debates might be. Mr. HALE-The answer of the gentleman [Mr. McDonald], does explain the question I asked, but I would suggest that it is important that we have a daily report of our proceedings before us, and that a delay of three days, if it can be avoided, ought not to be made-that on the following day, at least, we should have before us the report of what transpired on any given day. The question was then put on the amendment offered by Mr. Carpenter, and it was declared lost -ayes 42, noes 76. Mr. FIELD offered the following amendment: Strike out the words "and that the next Legislature be requested to make the requisite appropriations for payment of the service," and insert as follows: " and that the cost of such publication be paid pro rata by the members of this Convention, to be deducted by the Comptroller from their compensation." Mr. FIELD - I offer the amendment, Mr. President, for the reason that I believe it to be highly important that the members of this Convention should, for their own convenience, have the debates before them as soon as possible, and because I believe there is no authority under the act by which this Convention has assembled, to publish the debates in the manner proposed by the resolution to refer the question of payment to the next Legislature. Mr. WEED-Mr. President: I would like to ask the gentleman from Orleans [Mr. Field] if he thinks that it would be proper and right to deduct from his pay and the pay of the gentlemen sitting along on the outer lines of the seats on the south side of this Chamber, the amount of the cost of taking down the partitions and finishing up the parts thus defaced, and which was done to suit their convenience? Mr. FIELD-Mr. President: In regard to that I will state that I have understood from the Cdmptroller that lie has authority of law to make these alterations; but I do not understand that he considers lie has the authority of law to pay for the cost of making the newspaper publication of our debates which is here proposed. Mr. DUGANNE-I think this question of authority ought to be settled here. I believe that the supreme authority is generally supposed to reside in the people; and the people, not the Legislature, have constituted this Convention. The people have ordered us to do certain work in the way in which we shall determine shall be best and have authorized us to contract such debts or incur such expense as we shall consider necessary in the performance of our duties. I think, Mr. President, that we are going far wide of the mark in assuming that the Legislature has power to restrict this Convention in this regard.This is a Convention formed by the primary wnwer of the people, and the Legislature has merely provided certain ways and means to meet the necessary expense of doing the work. It has appropriated $250,000 to meet that expense. I believe, the amount will be amply sufficient and think we have authority to determine that the increased expense for printing shall be paid out of that sum. And, if we should recommend to the Legislature that the payment of it be provided for, by law, then we should merely be recommending a specific appropriation to cover this additional expense not specified in the enabling act. That we have ample authority so to do, there is, I think, no question. The question was then put on the amendment offered by Mr. Field. and it was declared lost. Mr. BARKER-As I am convinced that the Convention desires to come to a direct vote upon the report of the Committee, I withdraw the amendment that I offered. Mr. McDONALD offered the following substitute for the resolution of the Committee: Resolved, That this Convention hereby orders nine hundred copies of the debates to be printed under the contract, and deliver the same to the Sergeant-at-arms. That the Sergeant-at-arms furnish five copies to each member of this Convention. and forward ten copies to the Constitutional Convention of Michigan, and furnish ten copies each to the Governor, Lieutenant-Governor, Comptroller Treasurer and State Librarian-and that the balance be given to the President. Mr. CORBETT-I would inquire if a substitute is in order. The PRESIDENT-A substitute is in order if offered by way of amendment. Mr. CORBETT-I would like to inquire what would be the effect of a motion to lay the substitute on the table-whether it would lay the whole subject on the table. Tlie PRESIDENT-It would lay the whole subject on the table. Mr. FOWLER offered the following amendment: Resolved, That the Comptroller and Secretary of State be, and they are hereby authorized to contract for the publication of the daily debates of this Convention. in pamphlet form, and that there be laid upon the desk of each member of the Convention. from day to day, one copy thereof. Mr. GOULD -- It seems to me that this is much the most preferable form in which this subject has come before us. I wish to meet the line of argument tllht was made by the gentleman from Ulster [Mr. Cooke]. I did not understand the argument of the gentleman from Onondaga [Mr. Alvord], to contend that the Comptroller and Secretary of State had a right to dictate as to what shall be printed by this Convention. I understood him to contend that whatever printing was authorized by this Convention, had already been settled upon as to terms by an absolute contract made by those gentlemen, who were authorized to contract by the law, and that they had made a contract with Weed, Parsons & Co., so that whatever is printed, no matter what it is, by authority of this Convention, is to be printed by them, and no one else, in the very language of the law. Now, sir, if that is so-if the printing that is to be done, under authority of this Con 117 vention, is to be done by them, it seems to me that it is illegal, in every degree, that we should order the printing to be done by any one else. It is evidently beyond the power of this Convention. Whilst I am on my feet, I wish to protest against the argument of the gentleman from New York [Mr. Duganne], that there is any inherent sovereignty vested in this Convention. This body is as much a creature of law as any other. Sir. what would be the result if this Convention were a sovereign body? Would they have the riglt to authorize the transfer of funds in the custody of the Comptroller? Would they have a right to set aside a statute already existing? Would they have a right to change any existing law whatever? Sir, the very statement is sufficient to confute it. Now, sir, I hope that the Convention will adopt the last resolution which was offered. If I understood the reasons which actuated the people of this State in calling this Convention, (and I am sure I understand the reasons of my own constituents,) they were that this Convention might devise ways and means for preventing the unauthorized expenditure of the public moneys by the Legislature. They have been grieved and distressed at the lavish, and I may say, brutal and wasteful squandering of the public funds of which some Legislatures have been guilty. Their object in instituting this Convention was, that we might provide means to prevent this reckless expenditure in the future. Now, sir, if this Convention enters upon an unauthorized and illegal course, it would be like the cat which sat around to catch rats and turned into breeding rats instead of catching them I hope nothing of this kind will be done, because the law is direct and explicit, and requires the persons who shall contract with the Comptroller to do all the printing of every kind. Then, again, with regard to the absolute necessity which is supposed to exist for the publication of the debates of this Convention in these papers. If, as the gentleman argues, they will refuse to publish our debates as they have done heretofore, I am very certain that the Troy papers will take up the publication. I am sure that journalistic enterprise is not so utterly dead in the cities of Troy and Albany that no one paper will be willing to furnish so important a branch of intelligence to its readers. But, sir, if such is the case, I know that in one city, at least, near by, there are two enterprising papers, The Hudson Daily Register, and The Hudson Daily Star, which will accommodate this Convention and will publish regularly the reports of the debates of this Convention. Gentlemen, need not be at all alarmed but what the people will know what is going on in this body. There are gentlemen, I know, who speak so low that it is difficult to understand them; but if these gentlemen make statements which are germane to the subjects, enterprise will diffuse information of their utterances; but if their utterances are not germane, then, certainly it is not of the slightest consequence whether they are heard or not. I think there is no doubt that the pamphlet form is absolutely sufficient, and we have no right whatever, under the law, to go any further. Mr. MURPHY-I wish to make one statement in reference to the proposition that this printing shall be done by contract. In my view there is no power under this act, in the mode suggested, to make a contract as the State officers have' embracing the contract for printing the debates of this Convention. As I understand this act, which was passed by the Legislature, it was simply for the purpose of enabling the proper printing to be done, to enable us to proceed with our deliberations. The printing of the debates of this Convention is not the printing contemplated by this act. What was meant by printing for the Convention was merely the printing of the reports and other matters which are usually embraced in documents of bodies like tlis. Printing the debates of the Convention is not "printing for the Convention." Therefore, when the Comptroller undertook to make a contract for printing the debates of the Convention he himself stepped outside of the law in my opinion. We do not get within the law, if that be the object of the amendment, if we should adopt it, and have a contract made with these newspapers. We propose to have these debates printed for our own personal convenience. We can have this convenience subserved in no other way than by having the debates published in the newpapers. To print them in the form proposed and distribute nine hundred copies among members, what does tlat amount to? According to the statement of one gentleman [Mr.- Greeley], there are five hundred copies of the newspapers distributed below on the river. According to the statement of the gentleman from Onondaga [Mr. Alvord], there are seventyfive copies circulated in Onondaga county. Make a computation upon that basis and you will see that there are several thousand copies of these journals which go through the State. They supply the reading demand, if I may so express myself, three or four or five times more than it would be supplied in the form of the pamphlet that is proposed. Now, sir, I regard the whole of this matter as outside of the act You cannot get it within the act by adopting the amendment last proposed. You do not get within the act, if my views of the construction of the eighth section be correct, that is, that it merely contemplates all printing for the Convention, not including the debates, which are extrinsic and outside. Mr. DUGANNE-I rise to a question of personal explanation. I was misrepresented by the gentleman from Columbia [Mr. Gould]. I did not say that this Convention was a sovereign body in the unlimited construction of that term. I said that, as emanating from the people, who are the primary source of authority, and sent here for the purlpose of doing a specific work, the Convention was sovereign over the methods which it conceived best to accomplish that work, and over the expenses necessary for its performance. Mr. ALVORD-I rise, not for the purpose of protracting this debate, but to thank my friend from Columbia [Mr. Gould] for his correction of the gentleman from Ulster [Mr. Cooke]. I was absent from the body of the Convention when the gentleman from Ulster made his remarks. The position which I took in that regard was I suppose in hostility to the position taken by the gentleman from Chautauqua [Mr. Barker] who introduced his amendment. My position was that this Convention had the power to order whatever 41 118 printing they might see fit, but that the Comptroller Mr. COOKIE-I wish to say to the gentleman and Secretary of State were to contract with the from Onondaga [Mr. Alvord] that I did not obprinter to do such printing as we shall choose to serve that he was absent at the time I alluded to order. I wish to answer for a single mo:nent the his remarks. I think he has been misinformed in position taken last by my friend from Kings [Mr. regard to the purport of what I said. I under. Murphy]. He says his examination of the law stood the gentleman to argue that because the.shows to him conclusively that the Comptroller Comptroller and Secretary of State had contracted has stepped outside of his province by under- for all the printing of this Convention, therefore taking to contract with these gentlemen, the we should not order this printing. I understood printers, for printing the debates. I take it, sir, the gentleman to give that as one reason why we that as a good lawyer, he will take up the whole should not order this printing. The gentleman of that act and look it over from the beginning to disclaims the argument which, as I understood the end before he makes judgment in regard to him at the time, was that as a contract was made any particular feature in it. That authorizes us before the organization of the Convention, it was. to appoint a Stenographer. Now, it must neces- practically, though perhaps not legally, a bar to sarily follow if we appoint a Stenographer to take our making a contract now, for the publication of daily debates from the mouths of the speakers, the debates. that we must have some way or other to preserve The question was then put on the amendment the results of his labor, and it follows as a matter of Mr. Fowler and it was declared lost. of necessity, therefore, that the printing of the Mr. CONGER-I will not detain the Convendebates of this Convention is part of the printing tion with any extended remarks, but I shall -which is necessary for this body. I think this keep within the letter and the spirit of this explanation clearly and indisputably shows in law. That we have a right to publish debates, regard to that fact, that the Comptroller has not I suppose is incident to the right and the duty of stepped beyond his province; that if the Conven- appointing a Stenographer under the act, and that tion conclude these debates should be published, the Comptroller and Secrerary of State were justithe printer will be bound to publish them under fled in the purview of that provision of this act, the arrangement made by the contract. in making proposals for the printing of the Mr. WEED-I wish to say one word in refer. debates, I suppose cannot be disputed. And ence to the last amendment. It has been admitted these proposals having been once made, and the by every gentleman who has spoken on this contract entered into by the parties to the propo-.question (and the question has been fully dis- sal for the printing, I take it that the parties who cussed by both sides), that it was important that have got the contract have a right to print the the members of this Convention should have these debates of the Convention, and that no other perdebates, that they should be able to have them son can exercise that right without their consent. and read them, so that they may more fully If we look at the contract itself, we find that if understand what is going on in this Convention,. we order only 800 copies of the debates under the Now the amendment proposed is, that the State rule,the parties accepting that contract will receive printer may publish them and place them upon -providing the debates when published will our files in pamphlet form. I simply wish to say amount to 1,600 pages-the beggarly sum of this, that you may resolve what you please about $1,176,-less than $1,200 for printing, under the State printer; you may pass resolutions that the rules, 800 copies of a work of 1,600 pages; he place them upon our files within twelve hours and I take it we are forced in advance, upon the or within twenty-four hours, and you will not get very consideration of the contract, or at some them; you will not get them for a week; it will future day, if not now, to order more than 800 begin as you resolve, but in just about three days copies of the debates. These parties having the that matter will be disposed of, and they will pub- contract, their rights can only be modified with lish them when they get around to them, and you their consent, and I suppose they would give that, will read them when they publish them, or, in consent on a reasonable proffer by this Convenother words, you will never read them at all, tion, that they should have the right to publish because no man will read debates a week or two more than the usual number of copies. As the old. If you want those debates, and if it is neces- matter stands, both the Convention and the State sary for the members of this Convention to have officers and the printers are in a snarl. If we them so that they can fully inform themselves, it insist upon the contract, and adhere to the regu-. seems to me there can be no question but that the lar number under the rule, we can force the only way you can get them is by having them printers to a very great loss under the contract. published in some daily paper. They publish Moreover, one object of printing the debates will their paper daily, and, in their daily issue, you be defeated by the limited number of copies which will get this report, otherwise you will not. Some will be issued, for eight hundred is barely suffi. gentlemen may say, as some have already said, cient for the use of the members of the Conventhat we may resolve that they shall not be paid, tion, and the number amounts to nothing in view unless they are printed according to instructions, of the rights of the public, or of those who wish They do not care anything about such a resolu- to know what we may say or do. I take it theretion. I have seen it tried time and time again; fore for granted, whether we do it now or at some they know that that will all blow over before future day, we must increase the number of copies the time comes for payment, and they will publish that we will order of the debates. I suppose, if:them when they can conveniently, and you will it were practical, we could induce the State offinever get them on your files in time for the ser- cers and printers so to modify the existing convice of the Convention. tract, not as to terms, so as to violate tho law 119 but as to the number of copies that would be The question then recurred on the resolution printed, and we could effect that result without reported by the committee as amended, and it either violating the law or doing any injustice to was adopted by the following vote: any party. It may be too late to submit any Ayes - Messrs. Archer, Armstrong, Axtell, proposition, but for the purpose of enabling me to Baker, Barker, Barnard, Barto, Beadle, Bergen. vote on this question intelligently and in accord- E. Brooks, E. P. Brooks, E. A. Brown, Burrill, ance with my construction of that law, I offer the Cheritree, Chesebro, Cochran, Colahan, Comstock, following amendment, leaving it to the Conven- Cooke, Corbett, Corning, Curtis, Duganne, C. 0, tion to designate how many more than the usual Dwight, T. W. Dwight, Ely, Endress, Francis, number of copies they will order. Garvin, Gerry, Grant, Gross, Hale, Hammond, The SECRETARY read the amendment as fol- Hardenburgh, Harris, Hatch, Hitchman, Huntlows: ington, Jarvis, Kernan, Ketcham. Kinney, LanResolved, That the Comptroller and Secretary of don, Law, Livingston, Loew, Masten, Mattice, State be requested to receive proposals and make Merrill, Miller, Monell, More, Morris, Murphy, contracts for the printing and publication from day Nelson, Opdyke, Paige, A. J. Parker, President, to day, in the Albany Evening Journal and Argus. Prindle, Reynolds, Robertson, Roy, Rumsey, L. of the debates of the Convention, in such wise W. Russell, Schell, Schoonmaker, Schumaker, that the type used in such Journals may be used Seaver, Seymour, Smith Spencer, Tilden, M. I. in book form, so as to furnish to the Convention Townsend, S. Townsend, Van Campen, Vertwice the usual number under the rules. Provi- planck, Wakeman, Weed-80. ded, however, that such contract shall not inter- rNoes-Messrs. Alvord, Andrews, Beales, Beckfere with any previous arrangement made by such with, Bell, Bickford, Carpenter, Case, Clark, State officers, which the contractors are not will- Clinton, Conger, Eddy, Ferry. Field, Flagler, ing to modify on the above condition of furnish- Folger, Fowler, Frank, Fuller, Goodrich, Gould, ing double the usual number. Graves, Greeley, Hadley, Hand, Hitchcock, HutMr. CONGER-I would like to have it under- chins, Lapham, A. Lawrence, A. R. Lawrence, stood that I do not insist upon double the number M H. Lawrence, Lee, Ludington, McDonald, of copies; the Convention may wish to have ten Merritt. Merwin, Pond, Prosser, Rathbun, Root, times the number; and I do not insist upon the A. D. Russell, Silvester, Stratton, Wales, Wickmanner in which the type is to be set up. -per- lham, Young-47. haps that better be stricken out - I only want to Mr. MEIRITT offered the following as a subget before the Convention this idea, that without stittute for the article in the existing Constitution interfering with any contract or violating any law, 'on the militia:' we can have this printing done by these papers, SECrroN 1. A militia force shall be maintained on the understanding that they will order ten or in order to repel invasion, insure protection and twelve times the usual number of copies. security to life and property; to preserve doThe question was then put upon the amend- mestic tranqulillity, and to aid, when necessary, ment of Mr. Conger, and it was declared to be lost. in the elforcement of the laws; and such force Mr. BELL-If I understand the resolution shall at all times be armed, equipped and disright, there seems to be some discrepancy ciplined. and to that end it shall be maintained at between the amendment offered by the gentleman the public expense. from Richmond [Mr. E. Brooks] and the original 2. It shall be the duty of the Legislature, at resolution. If I understand the gentleman from its first session after the adoption of this ConRichmond [Mr.' E. Brooks] the papers shall stitution, to fix by law, the number of the organreceive $6,000. ized militia force of the State. Mr. E. BROOKS - That is not necessarily so, ~ 3. All able-bodied male citizens, between the but the amendment provides that the compensa- ages of eighteen and forty-five years, shall be tion shall not exceed $6,000. kept constantly enrolled under such regulations Mr. BELL -I so understand it; then would it as shall be established by law,,and the Legislature not be well to amend it by saying, that each paper shall provide for the expense of enrollment and shall receive the sum of $6.50 per column, which the support of the organized forces. in the aggregate shall not exceed the sum of ~ 4. All persons who have been hororably dis. $6,000. charged from the army or navy of the United SEVERAL MEMBERS — That is what it says. States, shall, in time of peace, be exempt from Mr. BELL -I do not understand the resolution service in the militia; and all such inhabitants of to be in those words. this State, of any religious denomination whatMr. E. BROOKS -If the gentleman will allow ever, as, from scruples of conscience, may be me. The aggregate sum is limited to $12.000, exempted therefrom, upon such provisions as may that being for the entire publication of the debates be provided by law. of this Convention, and then, that it may be equi- ~ 5. The Governor, or the person exercising table, this sum of $6,000 is apportioned to each of the functions of Governor, shall be Commanderthe two journals named. in-Chief of all the military forces of the State; he Mr. BELL-Then the idea is, as I understand shall appoint and commission the chiefs of the it, should the Convention not continue its ses- several staff departments, aids-de-camp and milisions sufficiently long, so that the sum of $6.50 tary secretary, who shall hold office during his a column should not amount to $6,000 a piece, pleasure; their commissions to expire with the they will only receive $6.50 a column for the term for which the Governor shall have been amount published. If the resolution clearly ex- elected. presses that, it is all I desire. ~ 6. The Governor shall nominate, and.with 120 the consent of the Senate appoint all majorgenerals and all brigadier-generals of militia, and they shall be commissioned for the term of ten years from the date of their appointment. ~ 7. Division, brigade and regimental commanders may appoint their staff-officers, but such appointments shall require the approval of the Governor. ~ 8. The Legislature shall by law provide for the election or appointment of all militia officers not herein enumerated. ~ 9. The commissioned officers of the militia shall be commissioned by the Governor; and no commissioned officer shall be removed from office unless by the Senate on the recommendation of the Governor, stating the grounds on which such removal is recommended; or by the decision of a court-martial, or as shall otherwise be provided by law. The present officers of the militia shall hold their commissions subject to removal as before provided. ~ 10. All the enrolled militia, not embraced in the organized force, and who are not exempt from service, in lieu of service, shall pay such annual tax, not exceeding one dollar, as the Legislature, at its first session, after the adoption of this Constitution may prescribe-which sum shall be placed to the credit of the militia fund of the State, to be used for the maintenance of the organized militia. Which was referred to the Committee on Militia. Mr. HARRIS moved to take up the resolution, offered by him yesterday, calling for information from the Tax Commissioners of the city of New York. There being no objectionThe SECRETARY proceeded to read the resolution as follows: Resolved, That the Tax Commissioners of the city of New York be requested to furnish this Convention a statement of the number of tax payers in the city of New York, as the same appears from the reports and documents in their office, distinguishing, as far as practicable, between those assessed for real estate and those assessed for personal property. Mr. E. BROOKS — would like to make an inquiry of the mover of this resolution-whether he wishes to get this information in the aggregate or in detail, because if it is to be referred to the Convention in detail, it will be a matter of very great labor and consume a great deal of time, but if it is only results which the mover wishes to procure, I presume it may be sent here with very little inconvenience. Mr. HARRIS-I supposed I had framed that resolution in-such a way as to furnish an answer to the inquiries presented by the gentleman. I have asked that the tax commissioners firnish a statement of the number of tax payers, which is the aggregate number, and specifying how many, as far as practicable, pay taxes on real estate, and how many pay taxes on personal property. Mr. E. BROOKS-I am satisfied with the answer, but I supposed it was capable of a double construction and I wished to say, it would take a long time if the information was to be given in detail. The question was then put upon the resolution of Mr. Harris, and it was declared to be adopted Mr. LOEW offered the following resolution: Resolved, That it be referred to the Committee on the Legislature, etc.. to consider and report on the expediency of electing members of the Assembly from counties instead of Assembly districts, and for a period of two years instead of one, as heretofore; every elector to vote upon one ticket for as many persons as the county in which the elector resides is entitled to have to represent it in the Assembly; but no person shall be elected who shall not be a citizen of the United States, for two years an inhabitant of the State, and a resident of the county for one year next preceding the day of election. The question was put on the resolution, and it was declared to be adopted. Mr. LOEW also offered the following resolution: IResolved, That it be referred to the Committee on the Preamble and the Bill of Rights, to consider and report on the expediency of a constitutional provision, by which a married woman shall, in respect to all matters and things necessarily arising or growing out of the marriage relation, have the same authority, rights, privileges and powers that she now has by law, but in respect to all other matters and things whatsoever, not necessarily arising or growing out of the marriage relation, she shall have the same authority, rights, privileges and powers, and be subject to the same liabilities in all respects, as if she were sole and unmarried. Also, on the expediency of giving to persons accused of criminal offenses, the right to testify and be examined as witnesses in their own behalf, the same as parties to civil actions and special proceedings now have. The question was put on the resolution, and declared to be adopted. Mr. SPENCER offered the following resolution: Resolved,. That the Secretary of State be requested to communicate to the Convention a statement containing1. The number and names of the Indian tribes residing or holding lands in this State. 2. The number of Indians belonging to each tribe. 3. The location and quantity of lands held by each tribe, distinguishing, so far as practicable, and as appears by the records of his office, lands held in common, and lands held in severalty. 4. Such agricultural and other industrial statistics as may be'conveniently and concisely stated. Such statement to be prepared from the latest census, and other records pertaining to the subjects referred to. Which was laid over under the rule. Mr. GERRY offered the following resolution: Resolved, That it be referred to the Committee on the powers and duties of the Legislature to consider tne propriety of an amendment to the Constitution prohibiting the Legislature from passing local or special laws in the following cases: 1. Granting to private individuals or corporations franchises and the right to their use and enjoyment within the corporate limits of cities. 2. Creating or declaring any new divisions of 121 the State with reference to the local government of any part thereof. 3. Creating any local commissions, boards, corporations or officers for tile government or regulation of any part of the Slate, or of any of the cities thereof. 4. Providing for the regulation of the exercise of the elective franchise in any part of the State. 5. Regulating the internal police and the administration of justice within the corporate limits of cities; except for the creation of local tribunals of civil jurisdiction therein. 6. Providing for the imposition or collection of annual or other taxes. Mr. WEED-May I ask what committee that is to be referred to? Mr. GERRY-I propose to have it sent to the Committee on the Powers and Duties of the Legislature other than as specially referred. Mr. TILDEN-I desire to move the reference of this resolution to the committee mentioned by the gentleman who offers it. I do it for the purpose of suggesting that a more appropriate disposition of these resolutions would be, that the mover of them should move a reference to the appropriate committee, rather than the adoption of them by the Convention. There is a tendency to some extent, perhaps, to make an expression of opinion on the part of the Convention, if it adopts the various resolutions submitted. I do not apply this criticism to the particular case, but present it in reference to this case for the purpose of enabling the Convention to settle its policy hereafter. I think, in all such cases, the more orderly and parliamentary mode, would be for the mover to move the reference of his resolution to the proper committee. The PRESIDENT-The Chair would inform the gentleman from New York [Mr. Tilden] that has been done in most of the cases; sometimes they put it in the form of a resolution which necessitates an adoption by the Convention. The question was then put on the resolution of Mr. Gerry, and it was declared adopted. Mr KINNEY offered the following resolution: Resolved, That the Committee on Education be requested to inquire into the propriety of excluding from our public schools all children under the age of seven years. Which was referred to the Committee on Education. Mr. FRANCIS offered the following resolution: Resolved, That the Committee on Counties, Towns and Villages, their Organization, Government and Powers be instructed to inquire into the propriety of prohibiting the Legislature from granting power to towns to bond themselves for the purpose of constructing railroads; and to devise some uniform and just system of appropriating money for local improvements. Which was referred to the Committee on Towns, Counties. etc. Mr. GOULD -I move that the Convention take lip for consideration the resolution, offered by me yesterday, calling for information from the County Clerks, etc. It is necessary for the action of the Convention, it should be considered. The SECRETARY then proceeded to read the resolution of Mr. Gould as follows: 16 Resolved, That the Secretary of this Convention be directed to procure from the several county clerks in this State, as soon as practicable, a statement embracing the following particulars from the years 1857 to 1866, both inclusive. 1. The number of indictments found in each year in all the criminal courts of the county. 2. The number of persons admitted to bail in each county in each year by said courts. 3. The aggregate amount of bail taken in each year in the courts of record. 4. The aggregate amount of bail ordered to be estreated in each year. Resolved, That the Secretary be directed to procure from the several County Treasurers of this State, the amount of money paid to them on account of forfeited bail, in each of the years from 1857 to 1866, inclusive. Mr. GOULD-I ask that an amendment be made to the last part of the resolution by adding the words " criminal cases." There being no objection the resolution was so amended. Mr. McDONALD-I wish to make an amendment requiring the amount of bail collected to be returned. Mr. GOULD-That is embraced in it. Mr. MASTEN-The resolution is defective in another particular. There are quite a large number of courts in the cities having extensive criminal jurisdiction which would not be embraced within this inquiry, in respect to which the county clerks would have no information. Mr. GOULD-I only expected the information which was on the records of the county clerks. Mr. BARNARD-I will state to the gentleman from Columbia County [Mr. Gould] that his information will be very imperfect. I know in the case of the county of Kings, all the bail bonds and bail pieces are filed in the office of the District Attorney, and if he will direct his inquiry in that direction, then it will embrace all the criminal courts in that county; but if he applies to the County Clerk he will get no information at all. Mr. GOULD-I see there is some mistake or misunderstanding in regard to this resolution, and therefore, I will ask that it be laid over until tomorrow. Mr. HADLEY moved to call up the resolution offered by him yesterday in reference to the Court of Appeals. The Secretary then proceeded to read the resolution, as follows: Resolved, That the Clerk of the Court of Appeals report to this Convention with all convenient speed: 1. The total amount of all funds and securities now held by him in trust, under any order, judgment or decree of any Court, including the late Court of Chancery, and that he specify the total amount of such funds and securities which has remained with said Clerk or his predecessors for more that twenty years, if any. 2. The total amount of such funds and securities that has so remained for fifteen years, and less than twenty years. 3. The total amount of such funds and securi ties that has so remained for ten years, and less than fifteen years. 122 4. The total amount of such funds and securities that has so remained for five years, and, less.than ten years. 5. In what manner such funds are invested and secured, and at what rate of interest. The question was then put on the resolution of Mr. Hadley. and it was declared adopted. Mr. FOLGER-I move to call up the resolution offered by me on the 18th, calling for information from the County Clerks. It is suggested by the gentleman on my right that the proper disposition of that resolution would be a reference to the Judiciary Committee; therefore I make that motion. There being no objection the resolution was referred to the Committee on the Judiciary. On motion of Mr. WEED the Convention adjourned. FRIDAY, JUNE 21 1867. The Convention met at 11 o'clock, A. M. Prayer was offered by Rev. E. HALLEY. The Journal of yesterday was read by the SECRETARY. Mr. FULLER-In the Journal it is stated that I presented a memorial of Hon. Henry R. Selden, late Judge of the Court of Appeals. The Journal in that respect is incorrect. Judge Selden is now in Europe, and has been for a year past. I merely said I presented a memorial from a late Judge of the Court of Appeals. The PRESIDENT-The Journal Clerk informs the Chair that the memorial was endorsed Henry R. Selden. Mr. FULLER-It was not so endorsed by me, sir. The Journal was corrected. There being no further objection, the Journal was declared approved. Mr. MERWIN-I desire to present a plan for the reorganization of the Judiciary, prepared by a Justice of the Supreme Court, and I move its reference to the Committee on the Judiciary. Which reference was ordered. Mr. GROSS-I present a petition from several progressive Societies and individual Citizens of the State of New York, praying for such changes in the Constitution of the State, as may secure a more equal share of religious liberty to all of its citizens. I ask that the petition be referred to the Committee on the Preamble and Bill of Rights. Which reference was ordered. Mr. FOLGER-From the Committee on Judiciary offered the following resolution: Resolved, That the Committee on the Judiciary, or any one or more of their number whom they may designate, have power to take the testimony, or in their discretion, the written verified statement of such persons as they may see fit, who have heretofore been appointed or designated under rule of court, to examine into the condition of funds held under order of court by or in the name of any or all of the County Treasurers or other officers of the respective counties, such statement or testimony shall concern, First. The general condition and amount of such funds. ISecond. The security or insecurity of their investment. Third. The losses or depreciation which may have been sustained. Fourth. Any other matter bearing on their custody and control. Fifth. The opinions of the persons in question as to the necessity and nature of any further checks, safeguards or other provisions for the care and protection of such funds. The question was then put upon the resolution, and it was declared adopted. Mr. FOLGER, from the Committee on the Judiciary, submitted the following report: To THE CONVENTION: The Committee on Judiciary, to whom was referred the resolution of Mr. Pond of Saratoga, instructing it "to inquire into the expediency of so modifying the Constitution, as to permit juries in civil causes to render verdicts upon the agreement of a number less than the whole; and into the propriety of so amending the Constitution, as to prohibit the receipt by judicial officers including Justices of the Peace, of any fees or perquisites of office as a compensation for their services, or otherwise." Do respectfully report that, as to the first branch of the resolution, they do not perceive that it is necessarily a matter for the consideration of a body charged with the revision and amendment of the organic lawv but is rather a matter of detail for the action of the Legislature of the State, unless the question is affected by the second section of article first of the Constitution, which is in the words following: "~ 2. The trial by jury in all cases in which it has been heretofore used, shall remain inviolate forever; but a jury trial may be waived by the parties in all civil cases, in the manner to be prescribed by law," or by the following passage in section sixth of the same article: "No person shall be deprived of life, liberty or property without due process of law." This article is found in what is commonly called "the Bill of Rights," and as the Preamble and Bill of Rights have been made by the Convention the subject for, and have been committed to a separate standing committee of the body, the Committee on the Judiciary have conceived that so much of the resolution as is above specifically indicated does not come properly within their jurisdiction, but that it should be committed to standing Committee No. 1, on " the Preamble and Bill of Rights." The Committee on the Judiciary therefore submit the following: Resolved, That the Committee on the Judiciary be discharged from the further consideration of so much of the resolution of Mr. Pond, of Saratoga, as relates to the subject of juries and their verdicts; and that the same be committed to the standing Committee on the Preamble and Bill of Rights. CHAS. J. FOLGER, Chairman. Dated June 21, 1867. Mr. POND-I am not particular to which committee this subject is referred, but it strikes me, sir, that if it is proper in any point of view to refer this subject to the Committee upon the Bill of Rights, it is equally a subject proper to be referred to the Judiciary Committee, and perhaps 123 it ought to be considered before being finally acted both of these extra copies which have been upon by the Convention to ascertain which corn- moved. mittee it is most appropriately to be referred to. Mr. WEED-I understand that this report is in It certainly comes within the section of the reference to a resolution in answer to a commuConstitution referred to by the committee, but it nication from the Convention of the State of Michcertainly has reference to subjects which pertain igan. I submit to the gentleman from Kings Mr. to the Judiciary Committee, of which they shall Murphy], that his amendment is not strictly in take cognizance, and it might be equally well if order; that it should be an independent resolution referred to the committee indicated by the report of this Convention, proposing to exchange with the of the Judiciary Committee; but, if sent to the Convention of the State of Maryland. They have Committee upon the Bill of Rights, it strikes me not made any proposition to us, but the Convento be equally proper for them to say that it per- tion of the State of Michigan has, and this is an tains to subjects coming properly within the cog- acceptance of that proposition and provision for nizance of the Judiciary Committee, and they re- the exchange. I would gladly go with him in asking port it should be referred to them. For the pur- the Convention ot' Maryland to exchange with us. pose of examining the subject, I move to lay that Mr. MURPHY-In all matters of this kind, I report upon the table for the present. am for the substance-the form is immaterial. I The question was then put on the motion of would like myself, to have the benefit of the deMr. Pond and it was declared carried, bates and propositions presented to the Maryland Mr. SEAVER from the Committee on Printing, Convention. As I said before, I have read some submitted the following report in relation to a corn- of them with a great deal of interest, especially munication from the State Librarian of Michigan. their reports upon the Executive Department of The Committee on Printing to whom was that State. I do not see any incongruity in referred the communication of the State Librarian amending this report by appending a further resof the State of Michigan, embodying a resolution olution to the effect I have mentioned, coupled of the Constitutional Convention of that State, with a request that the Maryland Convention will proposing an exchange of journal, debates and reciprocate and exchange. However, if it is the proceedings, with this Convention, beg leave to sense of the Convention that we should have a offer the following resolution: separate proposition I am willing to withdraw the Resolved, That the proposition of the Corstitu- motion. tional Convention of the State of Michigan, now in Mr. ALVORD-I renew the proposition of the session to exchange ten copies of the Journal and gentleman from Kings [Mr. Murphy] with this Debates and Proceedings of that Convention, for a addition that it be coupled with request that they like number of the Journal and Debates and Pro- send us a like number. It seems to me entirely gerceeding of this Convention, be and the same is mane to the matter. It might as well come in hereby accepted; and that the Secretary of this here instead of having a distinct, separate propoConvention be instructed to cause the said num- sition; and under the advice of the gentleman ber of copies to be regularly transmitted to the from Richmond [Mr. E. Brooks] the usual numState Librarian of the State of Michigan, and that ber printed will be sufficient. a sufficient number of copies in addition to the Mr. WEED-I, like the gentleman from Kings usual number are hereby ordered to be printed to [Mr. Murphy]. desire to have the substance, but conduct such exchange. at the same time I think there is a proper way of J. J. SEAVER, Chairman. doing it. We have here a communication sent us from the Constitutional Convention qf the State of Mr. SEAVER-It is not deemed by the corn- Michigan. We are now to pass a resolution acmittee necessary, perhaps, to print any extra cepting that; it is to be returned to that Convennumber, so that the usual number of 800 copies tion through the proper channels, and then there will supply the demand required by the exchange. will be an exchange between this Convention and But if 800 copies are found not sufficient, then the Convention of Michigan. I cannot see why an additional number can be printed. we should engraft upon this resolution of acceptMr. MURPHY —I do not know that the gen- ance a proposition to exchange with the Maryland tleman is aware of the fact that there is another Convention and have that sent to Michigan. It State Convention now in session, some of whose seems to me that the only proper way to get debates I have seen and read with great pleasure, at it is to pass a resolution asking the Maryand I hope, therefore, that this resolution may be land Convention to exchange with us. It is a amended so far as to extend the same courtesy to matter of no great moment: at the same time I that Convention. I refer to the Convention of the can see no propriety in adding this to the acceptState of Maryland. I move therefore an amend- ance of the simple and direct proposition tenment that a like number of copies of our proceed- dered to us by the Convention of Michigan. ings, be transmitted to the Convention of the Mr. McDONALD-As I understand the fact to State of Marylaud now in session. be this Convention has not yet ordered any debates, The PRESIDENT-The Chair would inquire at all, and the contract only provides that we whether the usual number of copies would allow may order them if we see fit. I, therefore, move that to be done? to amend the resolution by adding, that this ConMr. E. BROOKS-The Chairman of the Corn- vention order the usual number, of 800 copies of mittee, on Rules [Mr. Sherman] is not now in the debates, to be printed so that we can have his seat. But I think I can say that the number them to send. Perhaps, however, I had better authorized by the Committee on Rules to be withdraw my amendment, and offer it as a sepaprinted under the regular order, would supply rate proposition. 124 The question was then put upon the amend- islature shall, at its first session after the adoption ment offered by Mr. Alvord and it was declared of this Constitution, pass a general act of incoradopted. poration, prescribing a form of government for The question then recurred on the resolution every city in this State having a population of reported by the Committee on Printing as amend- ten thousand souls. All authority conferred by ed and it was declared adopted. said act is hereby vested in the qualified voters of Mr. FIELD-I move a reconsideration of the the cities respectively, who shall be authorized to tote of yesterday on the resolution reported by govern themselves, through a Mayor and one or the Select Committee of which the gentleman more legislative bodies, to be elected once in every from Rensselaer [Mr. Francis] is Chairman, in year. Future cities shall be authorized to come favor of publishing in two daily papers in this under the government of said act, which shall city, the debates of this Convention. If it is continue in force during the existence of this proper, at this time, I desire simply to state that Constitution. the object of this motion is not to defeat the Which was referred to the Committee on Cities. publication of these debates, but to have them Mr. HAND offered the following resolution for published in what is thought by many to be the reference: only legal and proper way; that is in the way Resolved, That the Committee on the Rights of proposed by the resolution of the gentleman Suffrage, &c., be directed to inquire whether perfrom Chautauqua [Mr. Barker] unless it can be sons addicted to habitual drunkenness to such done in some better way. extent as to unfit them for ordinary business (re. Mr. MURPHY-I move to lay that motion on quiring care and skill) should be excluded from the table. the right of suffrage. Mr. FIELD-I rise to a point of order, thata 2d. Whether in cities persons repeatedly conmotion to reconsider lies on the table under the victed of crime or misdemeanor below the grade rule. commonly deemed "infamous crime" should not Mr. BROOKS-As the House is very thin, and be deprived of the right of suffrage in the election the question is an important one, I hope the gen- of all municipal officers made elective by this tleman who made the motion, [Mr. Field] will Constitution. allow it to be postponed until Tuesday next. Which was referred to the Committee on the Mr. FIELD-As I have said, it does lie on the Righlof Suffrage. table, under the rule. Mr. ARCHER offered the following resolution The PRESIDENT-The point of order is well for reference: taken. The resolution will lie on the tabe under Resolved, That there be printed 500 copies of the rule. the rules and standing committees together, in Mr. GERRY offered the following resolution for pamphlet form, for the use of the Convention. eference: Which was referred to the Committee on Resolved, That the Board of Commissioners of Printing. the Metropolitan Police be requested to furnish Mr. S. TOWNSEND offered the following resothe Secretary of this Convention with fourteen lution for reference: printed copies of the last annual report of such Resolved, That the Committeee No. 9 on FinanBoard to the Legislature of this State; such copies ces, be requested to consider and report to this to be distributed among the members of the Com- body, upon the policy of providing that so much mittee on the Pardoning Power and the Committee of the expenditures of this State, as are required on State Prispns, and the prevention and punish- to be raised by taxation, for General or State purment of crime. poses, be allotted to the several counties, solely Mr. GERRY -I would like to ask the Conven- upon the Basis of Population-the proper equivation to suspend the rules; and for the reason, that lent of Representation. we shall probably adjourn to-day until Monday Which was referred to the Committee on Fior Tuesday of next week, and in the judgment of nances of the State. many of my colleagues on the Committee on the Mr. MONELL offered the following resolution Pardoning Power, it is necessary to have this for reference: document, and the intervening time may be em- Resolved, That the Committee on the powers ployed in the procurement of it, as I do not sup- and duties of the Legislature, be requested to inpose there will be any difficulty in obtaining it. quire into the expediency of prohibiting, by a Mr. FIELD-I rise to a point of order, that the constitutional provision, the Legislature from passrules cannot be suspended except upon one day's ing any bill within five days of its adjournment; notice. and also into the expediency of so amending the Mr. GERRY-It can be done by unanimous Constitution, as to require that every bill, after,consent. its passage before it shall become a law, shall be The PRESIDENT-The chair holds that it signed by tile Governor, during the session of the may be done by unanimous consent. Legislature, at which the same may be passed. There being no objection, the question was put Which was referred to the Committee on the on the resolution, and it was declared to be Powers and Duties of the Legislature. adopted. Mr. SMITH offered the following resolution for Mr. E. BROOKS offered the following resolk- reference: tion for reference: Resolved, That the Committee on the Powers Resolved, That it be referred to the Committee and Duties of the Legislature be requested to on Cities, to inquire into the expediency of consider the expediency of reporting a constituamending the Constitution as follows: The Leg- tional provision giving the Legislature power to 125 authorize individuals and corporations to appro- for the consideration of the propriety of inserting priate lands and unimproved water privileges for a clause in the Constitution similar to that which manufacturing purposes, on making compensation is found in the Constitution of several States, that to owners and persons injured thereby. the natural effect of a law shall not be suspended. Which was referred to the Committee on the The amendment was accepted. Powers and Duties of the Legislature. The question was then put upon the resolution, Mr. GOULD-I desire the Convention to take as amended, and it was declared adopted. up the resolutiou offered by me, calling for Mr. A. J. PARKER offered the following resoinformation from the county clerks etc., and I lution for reference: ask leave to withdraw that resolution; as it has Resolved That the Committee on Cities, their been suggested to me by several gentlemen, that organization and powers, be requested to inquire there are some courts whose decisions would not into the expediency of so amending the Constitube reached by the resolution as I have drawn it. tion as to provide for the government of all the I have accordingly prepared another resolution cities of the State, and for the organization and under the advice of these gentlemen, which will government of all the cities hereafter to be organembrace all the information I seek to obtain. ized in this State, under general laws, and that all There being no objection the resolution was special legislation in regard to the organization and taken up and withdrawn. government of cities be prohibited. Mr. GOULD offered the following resolution for Which was referred to the Committee on Cities. reference. Mr. LAPHAM —At the request of the ChairResolved, That the Secretary of this Conven- man of the Committee on the Pardoning Power, I tion be requested to procure as speedily as pos- desire to call up a resolution offered by me on sible, from the Clerks of the several Criminal Tuesday last. Courts of this State, including County Clerks; The SECRETARY proceeded to read the resothe Clerk of the Court of General Sessions of lution as follows: the city and county of New York; of the Supe- Resolved, That the Governor of the State be rior Court of Buffalo; of the Mayor's and requested to communicate to this Convention, as Recorder's Courts of cities having criminal soon as practicable, a list containing the number jurisdiction, as well as District Attorneys in the of the applications made to the Executive for parrespective counties, information upon the fol- dons, during the years 1864, 1865 and 1866; the lowing points for each year between 1857 and number of such applications granted, with the 186:;, both inclusive: nature of the offenses in classes. 1. The number of indictments that have been Mr. HARRIS-I hope that the mover of that found in each county. resolution will consent that it lie over for a day, 2. The number of accused persons admitted to as I want to examine the Manual which has been hail. placed upon our tables, to see what information 3. The aggregate amount of bail estreated in we have already upon the subject. each year. Mr. E. BROOKS-Mr. President, I would state And that he also be requested to procure from that a great part of the information called for, is each of the County Treasurers and the Comp- found in the first pamphlet of the Manual. On trollers of cities, the amount of money received page 5 of the first pamphlet, will be found nearly by them in each year on account of estreated bail. the precise information called for by the resolution Mr. T. W. DWIGHT-I desire to submit an except as to its details. I can state in a word, amendment to that resolution, by adding "also that since the commencement in the organization the number of cases in which sentence has of this State and the existance of the pardoning been suspended, and the number of cases in which, power, some eleven thousand pardons have been after such suspension, sentence has been actually granted, and during two years of the administrarendered. " I wish to say a word with regard to tion of Governor Fenton, he reports that 299 parthe object proposed by this amendment. It is well dons have been granted. If gentlemen will take known to gentlemen who are conversant with crim- the pains to examine this Manual in detail, they inal jurisprudence that there has sprung up in will find a great deal of the information which is England and in this country, a practice-not sane- being called for. tioned regularly by legislation, but grown up by Mr. HARRIS-I hope that the mover will usage-of suspending sentence in criminal cases. consent that this resolution lie over. I had prePersons who have given attention to this subject pared a similar resolution myself, but at the regard it as a direct violation of the great princi- suggestion of some one that this information was ples laid down by Beccaria and other standard coming in the Manual, I witheld it writers on criminal jurisprudence, that sentence Mr. LAPHAM-I have no objection if the ought to follow upon the conviction of the pris- Chairman of the Committee is satisfied. oner, in such a way that it will be associated in Mr. M. I. TOWNSEND-I suppose that the. the minds of the criminal classes like cause and reportof the Committee on Pardoning Power need effect, coming as it were in the regular sequence not be among the earliest which is submitted to of effects, from the operation of causes in nature. this body; necessarily it would be later, and thereAnd moreover, that the assumption of this power fore, I presume no time will be lost in suffering to suspend sentence is in effect an assumption of the resolution to be laid over. the pardoning power by the individual officer who Mr. BELL offered the following resolution: exercises it; and for these reasons I have thought Resolved, That the Commissioners of the Land it best to present this amendment in order that Office be respectfully requested to report to this the facts can be produced before the Convention Convention, as soon as practicable, the following 126 particulars in regard to the "Salt Reservations" of the State: 1. The quantity of land originally set apart by the State for the purpose of manufacturing salt. 2. The quantity of land now owned by the State and devoted to that object. 3. The towns and counties in which said lands are located, and the number of acres in each locality. 4. The present value of such lands, if the same can be readily ascertained; or the nearest possible approximate value thereof. 5. Cost and present value of the salt wells, structures and improvements thereto, made and owned by the State. 6. The probable value of the Salines connected therewith. 7. The yearly expense to the State for the care and management of the same, including new structures, repairs, superintendence, etc. 8. The yearly revenues received therefrom. Which were laid over under the rule. Mr. MILLER offered the following resolution for reference. The SECRETARY proceeded to read the resotions as follows: Resolved, That the Committee on the Powers and Duties of the Legislature, be instructed to inquire into the expediency of reporting a constitutional provision, prohibiting the Legislature taking cognizance or having jurisdiction of any claim against this State, that has not accrued within the preceding six years. Which was referred to the Committee on the Powers and Duties of the Legislature. Mr. MERWIN offered the following resolution for reference: Resolved, That the Constitution be so amended (1) that senators shall hold their office for four years, and one-fourth of their number be elected each year; (2) that assemblymen be elected for one year, and every 25,000 of population be entitled to one member, and that they be elected by single districts. Which was referred to the Committee on the organization of the Legislature. Mr. DUGANNE offered the following resolution for reference: Resolved, That it be referred to the proper committee to inquire whether the agricultural or other industrial interests of any portion of the people of this State are injuriously affected by feudal tenures or other anti-republican conditions or restrictions. Which was referred to the Comrlittee on Industrial Interests. Mr. A. R. LAWRENCE offered the following resolution: Resolved, That it be referred to Committee No. 3, "on the Powers and Duties of the Legislature," to inquire as to the propriety and expediency of amending section 13 of article 3 of the Constitution, so as to read as follows: "All bills for the imposition of taxes, or for the raising of revenue, shall originate in the Assembly, but the Senate may propose or concur with amendments, as on other bills." Which was referred to the Committee on the Powers and Duties of the Legislature. Mr. McDONALD called up a resolution offered by him in relation to printing of documents, and offered the following as a substitute: Resolved, That this Convention hereby order eight hundred copies of the debates to be printed, and that it be referred to the Committee on Printing to report as to the proper disposition of the same. The PRESIDENT-The Chair would inform the gentleman from Ontario that rule 41 already provides for that. and they will be printed, of course, without any special order. Mr. WEED-I would suggest that rule 41 does not provide for the printing of the debates, it provides for the printing of documents that may be ordered, but as I understand it, the debates have not yet been ordered to be placed on our files. The resolution was then referred to the Committee on Printing. Mr. LANDON offered the following resolution for reference. Resolved, That the Committee on the Preamble and Bill of Rights be requested to inquire into the expediency of so amending section 5, of article 1, of the Constitution, as, 1. To prohibit capital punishment. 2. To require the Legislature to provide by law for the immediate taking, in criminal cases, of the testimony of witnesses who cannot give bail for their appearance at the trial, and thereupon discharging such witnesses. Which was referred to the Committee on the Preamble and Bill of Rights. Mr. GRAVES-I move to take up the resolution offered by myself, and which is to be found on page 45 of the Journal. The SECRETARY proceeded to read the resolution as follows: Resolved, That a committee of five be appointed by the Chair to report to the Convention at as early a day as practicable, whether, in their opinion, a provision should be incorporated in the Constitution, authorizing the women in this State to exercise the elective franchise, when they shall ask that right by a majority of all the votes given by citizen females over the age of twenty-one years, at an election called for that purpose, at which the women alone shall have the right to vote. The question was then put on the motion to take the resolution from the table, and it was declared carried. The PRESIDENT announced the pending question to be on the resolution as read. Mr. GRAVES-Mr. President: I do not desire at this time to discuss the merits of the resolution; but allow me to suggest that there are four persons who are interested in the questions involved in it. The first class is what is opprobriously known as the strong-minded women, who claim the right to vote upon the ground that they are interested and identified with ourselves in the stability and permanency of our institutions, and that their property is made liable for the maintenance of our government while they have no right to choose the law-makers, or to select the persons who are to assess the value of their property liable to taxation. They claim that they are not untaught in the science of government to which. 127 the right of administration is denied to them. The second class includes both males and females who sympathize with the first class and who claim that there is no disparity in the intellect of men and women, when an equal opportunity is afforded by education, for progress and advancement. They also claim that our country is diminishing all the time in moral integrity and virtue, and ask that a new element be introduced into our governmental affairs by which crime shall be lessened and the estimate of moral virtue be made higher. The third class is a class which urges that there should be no distinction between males and females in the exercise of the elective franchise, and they claim that it is anti-democratic that there should be a minority in this country to rule its destinies. There is a fourth class who believe that the right to exercise the elective franchise is not inherent, but permissive, and that the people are the government, and that this power of the elective franchise is under their immediate control, and they claim the right to become part and parcel of the government which they help to support and maintain. Now, these four classes, differing in opinion upon this great question, constitute a very large body of very worthy and high-minded and intelligent men and women of this State who have long sought to enlarge the elective franchise, and they claim the deliberate consideration of this body upon the ground of equality. Now this resolution gives to women themselves, the power of discussion and comparing of minds, etc., to settle the question whether they will avail themselves of the desired right to exercise this power of voting. And as it differs from all other questions wlicll have originated here with reference to this right of women to vote, I submit it is a proper resolution to be referred to a select committee to be appointed for that purpose. Mr. BICKFORD offered the following amendment to the resolution: Strike out the words "votes given by." Mr. BICKFORD-The object of this amendment is this: That the women of this State shall not be forced to vote even on this question. There are a great many ladies of the State who will not vote on any question, and the object of the amendment is that their voices may be counted against the proposition, even if they do not vote; so that they shall not be compelled to go to the polls even for the purpose of saying that they do not want the privilege of voting. Mr. WEED-Without discussing the merits of this question at all, it seems to me that as Committee No. 4 has this question especially in charge, and as this resolution was introduced prior to the appointment of that, and before any committee was authorized on this subject, it is proper and right before this question takes up the time of this Convention, it should go before the ordinary committee, and come before us upon their report. I therefore move that this resolution be referred to Committee No. 4 on the Right of Suffrage and the qualification of voters. Mr. VEEDER-I would inquire whether that motion precludes any further amendment before it is referred? I submit that we should have a fair opportunity of amending the resolution, and then The PRESIDENT-Under rule 23, the motion'. to commit takes precedence of the motion to amend.,,Mr. VEEDER-Then I hope the gentleman from Clinton [Mr. Weed] will withdraw his rno601), that I may offer an amendment, and then let: the whole subject go to the committee. Mr, WEED-Any amendment that the gentleman from Kings [Mr. Veeder] may see fit to offer,, can be offered as an independent resolution, which could be referred to the committee. If my motion is withdrawn it will open discussion upon the question. Mr. VEEDER-If the gentleman will withdraw his motion, I will offer my amendment, and then renew his motion. Mr. S. TOWNSEND-Are amendments now in order to th6 proposition to go with the resolution to the Committee? Mr. CONGER-I would suggest a point of order; that a resolution specially directing a reference to a special committee cannot be referred to a standing committee. The subject-matter only of the resolution can be referred. The PRESIDENT-The subject-matter of the resolution of the gentleman from Herkimer [Mr. Graves], it is moved by the gentleman from Clinton [Mr. Weed], shall be referred to the Committee on Lhe Right of Suffrage. The question was then put on the motion of Mr. Weed to refer the subject embraced it) the resolution of Mr. Graves to the Committee on the Right of Suffrage, and it was declared carried. Mr. CARPENTER offered the following reso. lution: Resolved, That it be referred to the standing cominittee on the Preamble and Bill of Rights, to consider the propriety of erasing from section 8 of article I of the present Constitution, the last clause of said section, to wit: "and the jury shall have the right to determine the law and the fact." Which was referred to the Committee ou the Preamble and Bill of Rights. Mr. G RkVES-I desire to call from the table the resolution to be found on page 74 of the JourDal. The SECRErARY proceeded to read the preamble arid resolution, as follows: Whereas, Tlie use of adulterated, intoxicating liquors lias become an alarming evil, increasing domestic sorrow, creating pauperism and crime, thereby adding to the burdens of taxation; therefore, Resolved. That a committee of one from each judicial district be appointed to report: Ist. Whether, in their opinion, under -our republican form of government, any authority should be granted to sell, or any prohibition enacted against the sale of intoxicating liquors, either by a legislative or organic law of the State. 2d. Whether, in their opinion, the sale of in. toxicating liquors should be denied to all except such as shall receive a certificate under the hand and official seal of a person properly qualified and duty appointed, showing that the liquor offered for, sale had been carefully analyzed, and was Un. adulterated, pure, and contained no poisonous, drug. 3d-,. Whether. in their opinion. anv law author. The PRESIDENT-Under rule 23, the motion to commit takes precedence of the motion to amend. Mr. VEEDER-Then I hope the gentleman from Clinton [Mr. Weed] will withdraw his moo tion, that I may offer an amendment, and then let the whole subject go to the committee. Mr. WEED-Any amendment that the gentleman from Kings [Mr. Veeder] may see fit to offer, can be offered as an independent resolution, which could be referred to the committee. If my motion is withdrawn it will open discussion upon the question. Mr. VEEDER-If the gentleman will withdraw his motion, I will offer my amendment, and then renew his motion. Mr. S. TOWNSEND-Are amendments now in order to the proposition to go with the resolution to the Committee? Mr. CONGER-I would suggest a point of order; that a resolution specially directing a reference to a special committee cannot be referred to a standing committee. The subject-matter only of the resolution can be referred. The PRESIDENT-The subject-matter of the resolution of the gentleman from Herkimer [Mr. Graves], it is moved by the gentleman from Clinton [Mr. Weed], shall be referred to the Committee on the Right of Suffrage. The question was then put on the motion of Mr. Weed to refer the subject embraced in the resolution of Mr. Graves to the Committee on the Right of Suffrage, and it was declared carried. Mr. CARPENTER offered the following resolution: Resolved, That it be referred to the standing committee on the Preamble and Bill of Rights, to consider the propriety of erasing from section 8 of article 1 of the present Constitution, the last clause of said section, to wit: "and the jury shall have the right to determine the law and the fact." Which was referred to the Committee on the Preamble and Bill of Rights. Mr. GRAVES-I desire to call from the table the resolution to be found on page 74 of the Journal. The SECRETARY proceeded to read the preamble and resolution, as follows: Whereas, The use of adulterated, intoxicating liquors has become an alarming evil, increasing domestic sorrow, creating pauperism and crime, thereby adding to the burdens of taxation; therefore, Resolved, That a committee of one from each judicial district be appointed to report: 1st. Whether, in their opinion, under our republican form of government, any authority should be granted to sell, or any prohibition enacted against the sale of intoxicating liquors, either by a legislative or organic law of the State. 2d. Whether, in their opinion, the sale of intoxicating liquors should be denied to all except such as shall receive a certificate under the hand and official seal of a person properly qualified and duly appointed, showing that the liquor offered for, sale had been carefully analyzed, and was unadulterated, pure, and contained no poisonous, drug. 3d. Whether, in their opinion, any law author-. 128 izing or prohibiting the sale should not be organic instead of legislative, thereby creating a rule controlling and regulating public opinion, and relieving each successive Legislature from the pressing importunities of those in favor of or opposed to the sale of intoxicating drinks. The question was then put on the motion of Mr. Graves to take the preamble and resolution from the table,.-and it was declared carried. The question then recurred on the preamble and resolution, and they were declared adopted. Mr. BALLARD offered the following resolution: Resolved, That when the Convention adjourns this day! it adjourns to meet on Monday next at 7j o'clock, P. M. Mr. GREELEY-I move to amend by making it 11 o'clock A. M. Mr. BALLARD-I made the time 7} o'clock, instead of 6 in the afternoon, as by putting the meeting at that hour it enables us to hold an evening session; whereas, if we made it at 6 o'clock, it being the usual hour for tea, members would not be able to be present. Mr. GREELEY-I move to amend by making the hour 11 o'clock, A. M., instead of 7 P. M. Mr. MONELL-I move to further amend by striking out the word "Monday " and inserting Tuesday. The question was put on the motion of Mr. Monell, and it was declared lost. The PRESIDENT then announced the question to be on the amendment proposed by Mr. Greeley, to make the hour of meeting 11 o'clock on Monday, instead of 7 o'clock. Mr. MILLER —I would suggest that if it is intended that we should go home during the recess, it would be impossible for us to reach here by 11 o'clock, without traveling on the Sabbath. We can have just as long a session if we begin business at half past seven o'clock, as if we had a session at 11 o'clock in the day-time. I understand that 71 o'clock is the time fixed by the original motion of the gentleman from Cortland [Mr. Ballard]. Mr. SEAVER —I trust that this motion will not prevail. If there is any business for this Convention to do, let us be about it and do it. It is very convenient for those who live within a few miles of the Capital, to adjourn until Monday or Tuesday, and leave those who reside at a greater distance here in idleness. An adjournment or recess of this Convention destroys the power of committees to do anything by taking away those who live in the immediate neighborhood, and there is nothing for those who remain here to do because they cannot get a quorum. If there is no committee going i to transact any business, it is trifling with the time and the patience of the people of this State. We I are here in the service of the people, and I hold I that we ought to serve them certainly more than half of the time. If there is nothing for thisr Convention to do, let us adjourn for a week, or c two weeks, until something arises for us to do. I and then we can come back and attend to it, get E through with our business, and go home. r Mr. BICKFORD-It is utterly impossible, Mr. President, to keep committees together and make t them do any work, unless this Convention holds daily sessions; and it is important that we should proceed to consider the various subjects that are to be discussed in this body. As has been said by the gentleman from Franklin [Mr. Seaver], the delegates willise disperse during the recess, and it will be impossible to do any business in committee. I, therefore, hope that both the resolution and the amendment to adjourn to any hour on Monday will be voted down, for many of us cannot go home. The question was then put on the amendment of Mr. Greeley, and it was declared lost. The PRESIDENT then announced the question to be on the original motion of Mr. Ballard. Mr. LEE-I move to amend the resolution so that it shall read that when this Convention adjourns it will adjourn to meet on Saturday at 11 o'clock. Mr. HAND-Such an adjournment would follow as a matter of course if the motion of the gentleman from Cortland [Mr. Ballardl is lost. It does not require an amendment. Mr. M. H. LAWRENCE-I trust that the last amendment will prevail. I am sorry to see the Convention adjourn for such long recesses to accommodate gentlemen who live on the river, in the city of New York, and on the lines of the railroads. There are many gentlemen in this Convention who find it impossible to get home and return in time for business, and those who are compelled to remain here have nothing to do as soon as the adjournment occurs. The PRESIDENT-The Chair regards the motion of the gentleman from Oswego [Mr. Lee], and the voting down of the motion of the gentleman from Cortland [Mr. Ballard], as being equivalent questions. Mr. LEE-I understand that, but I wish to call attention more prominently to the fact by making the motion. When I was a boy and went to school, if we had every other Saturday for a playday, we thought we were doing pretty well. I think that, having now reached the age of manhood, and having assumed the responsibility of discharging certain important duties intrusted to us by the people, we should now expect, except for due cause, to remain here and discharge our duty, rather than leave our work to go home. As has been already said, I think it entirely unjust to those members of the Convention who, from the very nature of the case, are unable to return home, and are therefore compelled to remain here with their hands tied, and await the convenience of other gentlemen to enable them to resume work. We have already had adjournments for two or three days each week since we have been in session, and at this rate we shall not be prepared to submit the work of committees to the Convention for it to decide for a long time to come. I hope;hat gentlemen will seriously consider this matter, and continue sessions without an adjournment of more than a single day. In a few days the 4th )f July will be upon us, and that being a national loliday, we shall adjourn of course. At the rate it which we have been going on, we will spend nore than half of our time in idleness. Mr. BALLARD-It is well known that after;hese committees were formed and organized, the 129 suggestion was made and adopted by most of them that each member prepare and submit his ideas to his committee, for future consultation in reference to the matters referred to it, to enable its members to properly mature a report. Whether the Convention adjourns or not this afternoon, there will be certain members of the committees who will remain here, and they will devote their time to the subject-matters which are to come before their respective committees. If we continue in session, they will be interrupted in their labors in this regard by the sessions of the Convention, and as has been suggested, there will manifestly be scarcely a quorum of members here to-morrow. Again, it is well known that our courts are now being held in many parts of the State, and many members of the Convention have business at those courts which must be attended to. In a few days that pressure will be over. I think that instead of our business being interrupted by the proposed adjournment, it will-be promoted by its taking a recess until Monday at 71 o'clock. With the view of not interrupting, but promoting the labors of the Convention, I made the motion. Mr. BICKFORD called for the ayes and noes. A sufficient number seconding the call. the ayes and noes were ordered. Mr. McDONALD-I move, as an amendment, that when we adjourn to-morrow, we adjourn to meet on Monday evening, at 7T o'clock. The question was put on the amendment of Mr. McDonald, and it was declared to be lost. The question then recurred on the resolution of Mr. Ballard, and it was adopted by the following vote: Ayes-Messrs. C. L. Allen, Armstrong, Andrews, Archer, Ballard, Barto, Beadle, Bergen, W. C. Brown, Burrill, Carpenter, Cassidy, Chesebro, Clinton, Cooke, Comstock, Corning, Curtis, Daly, C. C. Dwight, T. W. Dwight, Endress, Farnum, Ferry, Flagler, Folger, Fowler, Francis, Garvin, Gerry, Goodrich, Grant, Gross, Hadley, Hale, Hand, Harris, Hitchman, Huntington, Jarvis, Krum, Lapham, Law, A. Lawrence, Jr., Livingston, Masten, Mattice, McDonald, Miller, Monell, More, Morris, Nelson, A. J. Parker, Pond, Prindle, Robertson, Roy, Rumsey, A. D. Russell, Schoonmaker, Sheldon, Silvester, Smith, Stratton, Tilden, S. Townsend, Veeder, Weed,Wickham, Young-71 Nays-Messrs. A. F. Allen, Alvord, Axtell, Baker, Barker, Beals, Beckwith, Bell, Bickford, Bowen, E. P. Brooks, E. A. Brown, Case. Clark, Cochran, Conger, Duganne, Eddy, Ely, Field, Fuller, Gould, Graves, Greeley, Hammond., itchcock, Ketcham, Kinney, Landon, A. Lawrence, M. H. Lawrence, Lee, Ludington, Merrill, Merritt, Merwin, Paige, President, Reynolds, Root, L. W. Russell, Seaver, Van Campen, Wrles, Wakeman, Williams-46. Mr. GREELEY-I offer the following resolution-that this Convention now take up and consider the communication from the Commissioners of the Canal Fund in answer to a resolution of this body. The PRESIDENT-There is no need of a resolution. The communication can be taken up on the call of the gentleman. Mr. GREELEY-Then I call up the communication for consideration. 17 The PRESIDENT-The Secretary will proceed to read. the communication referred to. Mr. GREELEY-I think it is hardly necessary, Mr. President, to have it read again, it has been read once and is on our files. The PRESIDENT-Unless the reading is de-. sired, it will be dispensed with. Mr. GREELEY —Mr. President, I offered the original resolution, to which the communication of the Commissioners of the Canal Fund on our files is intended as a response, because I desired more compact and condensed information in regard to the canals. I wished gentlemen in this Convention to seeMr. ALVORD - I rise to a question of order., I am not aware that the gentleman from Westchester [Mr. Greeley] can address the Chair or this Convention except there is some distinct motion before the body. Mr. GREELEY- I did make a distinct motion, but the Chair decided that my call for the consideration of the communication was all that was necessary. Mr. ALVORD - That does not bring the matter of the communication substantively before the Convention. To do that requires some motion. Mr. GREELEY -Then I move its reference to the Committee on Canals. Will that. do? I offered the original proposition. Mr. PresidentThe PRESIDENT - The Chair will inform the gentleman from Westchester [Mr. Greeley] that in discussing a question of reference the merits of the subject cannot be discussed under the rules. Mr. WEED-I rise to a point of order. A motion to refer is not debatable. The PRESIDENT-The Chair has informed the gentleman that on a motion to refer, the subject-matter involved is not debatable. Mr. GREELEY-May I ask the Chair upon what motion I would be allowed to address the Chair with reference to this paper? [Laughter.] The PRESIDENT-The Chair will leave the gentleman from Westchester [Mr. Greeley] to take his own course, not deeming it to be its province to instruct the gentleman. The Chair simply calls attention of the gentleman to the rule providing that on a mdtion to refer, debate on the principal question is not permissible. Mr. GREELEY-Then I move that the report be returned to the Commissioners of the Canal Fund. Will that be in order? The PRESIDENT-It will. Mr. GREELEY-Mr. PPesident, I will state myMr. ALVORD-I rise to a point of order. The gentleman [Mr. Greeley] has not withdrawn his original motion to refer it to the Committee on Canals. Mr. GREELEY-I do withdraw it, Mr. Pres dent, and I now make the motion that this paper be returned to the Commissioners of the Canat Fund. Mr. President, this is a very remarkable paper. T will read the first statement in it: "The Commissioners understand that the net cost or profit of the several canals is to be established by a comparison of the aggregate expenditures, including interest, with the aggrega receipts, and they assume that it was the intentioa to state an interest account on receipts as well as 130 payments, although the language of the resolution I desire to have, and to have it from an official fails to express it." source. I find it here in a volunteer document. Sir, what I desired to arrive at was the actual I would like to have it from a State officer. I do net cost of the canals to the people of the State not find any such information from State officials. of New York. as they stand to-day, by such I find here, in this manual, statistics in reference methods as should seem most in accordance with to the canals, but nothing like that which the spirit of that resolution. I am very, sorry is called for by the resolution I introduced. (though the Commissioners say that they compre- Let us know what each canal has cost the people hend very well what the resolution meant) that of the State, and what amount has been returned the words did not express the intent. In the next from each canal. I find in the statistics sent us place they tell us this: by the Canal Auditor, what each canal has cost to " On this construction of the scope and purpose run it, I may say, for twenty years back. I am of the resolution, the Commissioners conclude that very thankful for that, if it is all we can get. But the exigency under which, in accordance with the I wish to know from State officers what each proviso, they are required to report, has not canal has cost us, as clearly as may be, and how arisen "-(I feared that, Mr. President, when that much it has returned to us. This volunteer proviso was put in),-" as the information called document of Mr. Barnes says that the Erie canal for will be given substantially in the detailed has cost $83,000,000, and that it has returned statements of tihe Auditor of the Canal Depart- $73,000,000; that the Champlain canal cost ment, included in the manual prepared for the use $7,500,000, and that it has returned $4,750,000; of the Convention. Such of the statements as that the Oswego canal has cost $6,250,000, and have not already been published will be included that it has returned over $9,000,000; that the in following pages of the volume devoted to sta- Genesee Valley canal has cost $11,000,000, and tistics, and laid on the tables of members in a has returned less than $1,300,000. few days." Mr. ALVORD-I would suggest to the gentleMr. President, the third week of this Conven- man from Westchester [Mr. Greeley]. that as he tion has nearly closed and we have voted to close has read the facts, the statements are directly the it to-day. On the first day of our session, I think reverse of what is true. He must have read the it was. I offered the resolution of inquiry, and I returns for the outgoes. was then told to wait a few days and the informa- Mr. GREELEY-I am reading it exactly as it is tiou would be furnished. We are now told that here, except that I am giving the sums in round by-and-bye this information will come in certain numbers. To be accurate, it says that the estidetailed statements. A very intelligent member mated cost of the Genesee Valley canal is of this Convention informed me that he had de- $11,160,306.27, that the total revenues from that voted six hours to the study of the documents canal are $1,295,850.09. emanating from the Canal Auditor, and that he Mr. ALVORD-Will the gentleman read the thinks he understands about how this matter figures in reference to the Oswego canal again? stands. Now what I wished, was to have the Mr. GREELEY —Estimated cost $6,273,641.01; means afforded this Convention of understanding total revenues $9,177,171.35. how the State account stands with the canals, Mr. ALVORD-Then that volunteer statement without wandering through many documents, and is not correct. devoting six hours to their study, as my friend has Mr. GREELEY-It may not be correct. I am done. They say that in certain detailed state- not reading it as a correct statement, but only as ments that have been or will be given us, we will the kind of concise statement of the facts which find the leading material facts called for. What I I desire to be laid on our tables under the auwish, is a single statement, whereby we may see, thority of a State officer. I am reading it to show as at a glance, how the State stands in its account what I want this Convention informed of on with the canals. I have no doubt, if members authority. I have not quoted it as true. but I am of this Convention were able to give two or three showing how simple a matter it would be for a weeks to the study of canal documents, run- State officer to make a statement that we may ning back through a number of years, they might see, as on the fingers of one hand, what each obtain a very fair understanding of this subject. canal has cost the people of this State, and what But certainly, that cannot be necessary. It must each canal has returned to us. I now take up be within the power of the State officers to give some of the statistics furnished us by the Canal these facts within a small compass. I have before Auditor. He gives statistics for the last twenty me a document-a volunteer document-which years. It was estimated that when the canals were has been laid on our desks, entitled " The Canals, enlarged, the revenues would increase at the rate by James Barnes." I see in this account stated, of three per cent per annum, and on that basis it such as I wish to have; and all within a space was estimated that there would be $75,000,000 of two inches in width by four inches in length. of revenue in twenty years; or rather that the It states what is the original cost of each of the estimated aggregate receipts for the last twenty canals of this State, and how much has been years would be $75,000,000, the estimated outreturned to us from each of the canals. Accord- soes $12,500,000, and the estimated net income ing to this statement, the canals of this State have $62,750,000. I give the sums in round numbers. cost us $125,000.000, and they have returned us The actual receipts have been $62;500,000, instead $98,000,000,.so that to-day, tie State has paid out of $75,000,000; the actual outgoes have been fir canals, more than it has received from $20,000,000 instead of $12,500,000, making the thi canals, about $27,000,000. That is a very actual net income $48,500,000, which is $14,000,itelligent statement, and just such a one as 000 less than the estimated net income. In 131 another part of these statistics I read that there have been claimed during the last twenty years $9,250,000 for canal damages, and that $3,250,000 have been awarded on such claims. The rest, I suppose, will come in here from year to year, until the claimants weary future Legislatures into paying them. Here is another fact which appears in the documents which we have. The estimates on which the enlargement of 1846, or thereabouts, was made, assumed that tile canals would cost for repairs and superintendence per annum, $600,000 The actual expenses of superintendence, collection and repairs in 1846 was $641,000. From that time they varied from $700,000 to less than $1,100,000, down to the year 1865, when they jumped up to $1.927,000, and last year the amount was $1,435,000. So that during 18(5 and 1866, when it was estimated that the cost of superintendence, collection and repairs would be $1,200,000, the actual expense was over $3,250,000-almost treble the amount of the estimate. Now I would like to look a little at the profits of some of the canals for the last twenty years. The aggregate amount of tolls received from the Genesee Valley canal for the last twenty years is $533,000. But it is also stated that by reason of the existence of the Genesee Valley canal, there has been an augmentation of the revenues of the Erie canal to the amount of $576,000. I do not see the justice of that mode of computation. I insist that the revenues of the Erie canal, from the region penetrated by the Genesee Valley canal would be very nearly as great if that canal had not been built. People would have to send their produce to market, and it would reach market through the Erie canal. However, that mode of estimate, as proposed, received the high sanction of the gentleman from Ontario [Mr. Folger], who moved the amendment to my original resolution; and I will say no more on that, except this: that, estimating what the State has received in tolls from the Genesee Valley canal for the last twenty years, and estimating all that the Erie canal has received from tolls on freight that has come from the Genesee Valley canal, the total revenues of the State from those two sources have only been $1,109,000, while the cost of running the canal has been $1,346,000, making a net loss to the State, during the last twenty years, of $236,000. But that, by no means, is the worst aspect of the case; for while the expenses have been enormously increasing on the Genesee Valley canal, the revenues have diminished. During the last three years the tolls collected on the Genesee Valley canal have amounted to only $64,000, during which time it has added to the receipts of the Erie canal $42,000, making a total, according to this mode of computation, of $106,000 receipts to the State, from this canal, within three years. But during that time, the expense of keeping up this canal has been $522,000, so that beyond all the money received from this canal, and from the Erie canal. on account of the Genesee Valley canal, there has been an actual dead loss to the people, in three years, of $415,000, besides interest. In other words, we collect one dollar of tolls from the Genesee Valley canal and pay out five dollars. Apart from the total cost of making that canal, I submit, Mr. President, that it is right we should have these documents in such a form that we can determine whether the people ought to continue this ruinous and losing business forever, ior whether there shall not come some time, when the Genesee Valley canal shall cease to call upon the people of this State for more than $100,000 per annum, for the mere cost of keeping it up, apart from tile very large sum stated in this outside document of $11.000,000 which the canal has actually cost them, up to this time. I wish this document to take that form, so that we can h;ave the debt and credit of each canal, and know precisely what they have cost. The Commissioners seem to understand very well what it is thlat we want, although they think I do not know how to state the matter. I wish a statement like tils. We will say, for instance, that the State pays out $20,000,000 from 1842 to 1862, on the canals, and in that time it gets back $20,000,000; but in the mean time the State llas lost tie interest on this outlay, admitting that the whole sum paid out has been paid back. But instead of that, the Commissioners, in their communication, favor us with this statement: ' As an additional reason for this conclusion, it may be stated that the records from which the information sought for must be derived, are not in the possession of the Commissioners, or under Lheir control. By the act, chapter 162, Laws of 1848, creating the office of Auditor, that officer was invested with some of the most important powers that had previously been exercised by the Commissioners of the Canal Fund, from the organization of the Board in 1817." Mr. President, the distinguished gentleman from Orleans [Mr. Church], who has been both Comptroller and Lieutenant Governor of this State, and in both capacities a member of the Canal Board, if not one of the Commissioners of the Canal Fund, suggested that this resolution should be addressed to the Commissioners of the Canal Fund, as a body which includes all the persons from whom the information might be obtained. The Comptroller of the State is one of tile Commissioners, and the Auditor of the Canal Department is the Secretary of the Commissioners, and as their Secretary, would of course be ready to bring up any book or paper on the order of his superiors, the Commissioners. The Commissioners meet in the State Hall, where the Comptroller occupies a room, adjoining which is the room of the Canal Auditor, or at any rate, their rooms are on the same floor, and near together. The Commissioners of the Canal Fund, and the Auditor of the Canal Board, both have their records there, and they could answer our inquiries without difficulty. When we say that we want this information to act upon, in reference to the canals, all they would have to do, would be be to say, " Mr. Secretary, will you go to your department and furnish what is required?" I have no doubt that such orders must be given every day to their Secretary when the Commissioners meet, to have such documents produced. as will enable them to intelligently determine upon grave questions arising before them. But they: report to us that they cannot answer this inquiry,, because these documents are not in their posses, 132 sion, although they are in the possession of their Secretary. They cannot give this condensed, compact and intelligent information which I require, because their Secretary has it. Mr. President, if this answer does not combine evasion and effrontery in a very superior measure, then I totally fail to comprehend its tenor; and in that view I move that this response be returned to the Commissioners of the Canal Fund. Mr. ALVORD-Mr. President, I leave to the gentleman from Westchester [Mr. Greeley] the whole meed of good taste upon this occasion, of drawing into this discussion an extended oration upon the subject of canals. He has taken this opportunity, and I leave him this opportunity: but I shall endeavor to speak directly to tile question which is at issue. Sir, I took the liberty when upon the floor, on this question, the other day, to say to the gentleman from Westchester - as I had the right to say to him, in regard to the affairs of the State as connected with the canals -that his inquiry was in the wrong direction. I also took the liberty to say, as I had the right to say, from the information I had received, that every particle of the inquiry which he had made would be answered in the course of due time, under the requisition of the Legislature preceding us here. Now, sir, so far as regards this question, permit me again to say that it is true that the gentleman from Orleans [Mr. Church] stood up in his place here on this floor, and said it would be better to change the original direction of the enquiry of the gentleman from Westchester [Mr. Greeley] from the Comptroller to the Commissioners of the Canal Fund. I am sorry that gentleman is not now in his place, but I have authority to say that he himself has since stated that he was mistaken in what he said, and under the circumstances he took the advice of members of this Convention, whether he should not move a reconsideration of that reference in order to direct the inquiry as it should have been, to the Auditor of the Canal Department. So much, sir, as regards the position assumed by the gentleman from Westchester [Mr. Greeley] in reference to the gentleman from Orleans [Mr. Church]. Now, sir, another thing. The statute in regard to this matter is peremptory. All of the books, papers and documents relating to the financial matters connected with the canals, are transferred, by the law of 1848. to the Auditor and he has the entire control and custody of them, and only by courtesy can the Comproller, or the Commissioners of the Canal Fund enter his department for the purpose of getting this information. He, sir, it is true, occupies also, the position of Secretary to the Commissioners of the Canal Fund, but he does not occupy that simply as Auditor, for as Auditor, under the law, he has specific duties to perform, outside of and beyond their jurisdiction. He is also, by virtue of his office, Clerk of the Canal Board, but he is none the less Auditor and is compelled by the law to do and perform the duties which the law gives into his hands. Another thing, sir: the gentleman from Westchester [Mr. Greeley], undertakes to say that we have been three weeks in session, and that he, upon the very first day of the session, asked for this information, and has been tram and again told that it was to be laid upon the table of members. Why, sir, I know the fact, and the gentleman from Westchester [Mr. Greeley], if he would believe his fellow men, can find out the fact by just crossing the distance from here to the State House, that the entire force of the State Department, and an additional force thereto also, have been employed diligently, earnestly and laboriously from the time the Legislature passed that portion of the act requiring a manual to be laid upon our tables here, in the furtherance of the performance of that duty. They have, sir, worked diligently and well, as I have said. They have looked at all these questions in the various lights and phases in which they could look at them, and they are about to put upon our tables-and were originally intending so to do, and are working in that direction-each and every item of information which is asked for by the gentleman from Westchester [Mr. Greeley], in his original proposition, and by the amendments connected herewith; and they would have done so without any regard whatever to the resolutions. I am at liberty to say and to state distinctly here, so far as the matter is concerned, they are working with the utmost rapidity to that end. And if the gentleman from Westchester [Mr. Greeley] had even been right when he called for this information, and he was entitled to it from the source from which he had called for it, the labor necessary to respond to the inquiry, would have compelled them to work beyond the present time in which we are now speaking, and then they would have been unable to have done it accurately and correctly as required by the resolution. Now sir, the Comptroller of this State, the Secretary of State of this State, the Attorney-General of this State, and the Treasurer of this State, are-together with the Lieutenant-Governor of this State - Commissioners of the Canal Fund. They have received this resolution respectfully; they have treated it respectfully; they have respectfully said to this Convention, that they would gladly give them this information; and when the proviso says, if the information is in the Manual, they may forego the giving it into the hands of the Convention as a separate and distinct matter, they answer you in terms, that the Manual is to contain this information; and they say what is entirely proper, not by way of insult, not standing upon their dignity, because of attempting to take them out of the province in which they move; but by the way of information to the Convention, for its future action, that if they desire any future and other information with regard to this matter, they can get it more readily, more speedily, more easily and more satisfactorily by going to the head of the department, in whose custody the information is, and asking him the question, rather than by sending to a body who has it not, honestly and under the law, in its control, and asking them to deal it out second-handed to this Convention, they getting it from the source from which this Convention can receive the information. In regard to the question, of the results of the canals to revenue and finances of the State, I take it, that the proper time will 'come, to speak with regard to that; but that itime, in my judgment, has not arrived. It is 133 better to wait, as we are waiting in these unless so countersigned. [1 R. S., 170 ~ 1, subd. various cases, for the reports of committees. 9, ~ 4.] When they shall have examined these things "In giving a construction to these provisions we' critically and carefully, from one end to the other, are not embarrassed by consideration of the offiand when shall they bring them up in the body cial rank of the parties whose views "may chance of this house, and we take them up in parlia- to differ in respect to their respective rights and mentary order, in Committee of the Whole, I shall obligations. The Comptroller is, in official station be very happy to cross lances with the gentleman at least, the equal of a Canal Commissioner." from Westchester, [Mr. Greeley], if we shall ciis- The opinion then goes on at some length to: agree, or to march arm in arm with him (I hope show the authority of the Auditor in such cases,. not either of us weeping) on to the result of the and then says: Convention's labors. "The same duty is imposed upon the Auditor Mr. SCHOONMAKER-I desire to say a word by the law of 1848, not only m general terms, with regard.to the propriety of the original but the language of the Revised Statutes, above reference to the Commissioners of the Canal quoted, is copied into the eleventh and twelfth Fund and the propriety of returning this com- sections of the act. [Laws of 1848, supra.] He munication to them. I do not desire to enter is Secretary, ex officio, of the two Canal Boards; into the general discussion. The gentleman in all other respects, his power in refrom Westchester [Mr. Greeley] moved to return spect to the canals are the same as those forthis report to the Commissioners of the Canal merly vested in the Comptroller. He is the custo-, Fund, because they have referred the Convention dian of all papers pertaining to the duties of the to the Auditor. That question of the status of boards above mentioned. The Canal Commission-. the Auditor has been a matter of discussion and ers and their subordinates account to him, the decision in the Court of Appeals. Some years ago superintendents are to be removed when he is' the Auditor refused to pay a draft drawn upon him diastisfied with their accounts, and the payments by tl* Canal Commissioners, on the ground that from the collectors enforced by his warrant, and, there was no authority of law for drawing the all moneys from the Canal Fund must be drawn, draft on him. The Auditor refused to pay the on his warrant, and, as the head of the canal; draft, and the Supreme Court granted a mandamus department he reports directly to the Legisla-, to compel him to pay. It was first granted at ture. That an officer, clothed with powers thus the Special Term, and an appeal was taken to the extensive and compli-cated, should differ in opin-. General Term, and the order for mandamus was ion with a Canal Com-missioner, as to the exist-, affirmed. The Auditor then took the appeal to ence or construction of a law, may be unfortunate, the Court of Appeals, and the question of the but can hardly be deemed presumptuous." status of the Auditor and the authority of the There, sir, we have a case decided, showing Auditor came directly in question before that clearly that the Auditor is virtually the head of court. I quote the language of the court in the the canal department. case as reported in 13 N. Y. Reports, p. 241. Mr. CONGER-Without undertaking to ques"GARDINER, Ch. J. The demurrer was sustained tion what the effect and purport of the decision and a peremptory mandamus awarded upon the of the Court of Appeals was in that case; it is grounds insisted upon by the relator, first: That still very clear that the question there was not the powers of the Auditor are strictly ministerial; one between the Auditor and the Commissioners: that the draft being in the proper form, he had no of the Canal Fund, but was between the Auditor, discretion in the premises, but was bound to issue and the Comptroller, who is the financial officer his warrant for its payment without the right to of the State, vested with certain powers under, inquire as to the authority of the commissioner, the law of 1848, to take charge of the. or to act upon his own knowledge, that that offi- canals, draw * drafts and the like. It is well cer, in making the draft, had transcended his understood, that while the Constitution intended powers. And secondly, upon the ground that the that the custody of the Canal Funds, as facts alleged in the return were insufficient to such, should be devolved upon the body establish a want of jurisdiction in the commis- designated in the Constitution as the Commissionsioner. ers of the Canal Fund; yet there was a modificaIn 1848 the Legislature provided for the ap- tion of the Constitution which gave to the. pointment of an Auditor of the Canal Department, Legislature the power to prescribe the duty of all and transferred to him the powers, and imposed these several officers, and it is well known that upon him the duties in relation to the canals origi- in 1848, on a strenuous effort being made, the nally exercised and devolved upon the Comp- whole fiscal power with regard to the canals, was troller, with a single exception. [Laws of 1848, transferred from the Comptroller to the Auditor, 271, ~ 1, 2.] It was the duty of the Comptroller, who had heretofore been the clerk. I beg leave prior to the passage of this law, to superintend to draw the attention of the gentleman from; the fiscal concerns of the State; to draw warrants Ulster [Mr. Schoonmaker], to that provision of law on the Treasurer for the payment of all moneys which has not been repealed, and which does not directed by law to be paid out of the treasury; gainsay or come within the purview of that decision. but no warrant could be drawn unless authorized he has just read. That section of the law is as folby law, and every warrant must refer to the law lows: under which it was drawn. He was to counter- ~ 27. "As soon as possible after the close of each - sign and enter all checks drawn by the Treasurer, fiscal year, the said Auditor shall submit to the and all receipts for money paid to the Treasurer; Commissioners of the Canal Fund, a statement o. and no such receipts were evidence of payment the receipts and payments on account of the 134 canals and the canal debt, and the balances of the peculiar functionary who is to give us this inforfunds on hand, the depositories of the same, and mation. The Constitution says the Commissioners the conditions thereof, which statement shall of the Canal Fund; the law says the Commissionaccompany the annual report of the said Commis- ers of the Canal Fund. Tllis is not, as I said before, sioners to the Legislature." a conflict between the Auditor and the ComptrolIt is very clear, sir, whatever tie duties of the ler, or a conflict to be settled by the law of 1848, Auditor were with regard to preparing any of the but it is a conflict now, here on this floor, whether business, they were to be submitted as a part of we shall supersede tle functions recognized by the report of the Commissioners of the Canal the Constitution and the law, as inherent in the Fund to the Legislature, and therefore I think Commissioners of' the Canal Fund, and set them that my associate from Westchester [Mr. Greeley] aside and ask this information from the Auditor. was right in seeking to get the information he I certainly hope, whatever may be done as to the wanted from the Commissioners of the Canal obtaining of the information sought for at an early Fund, and I think that the gentleman from Orleans date, we will not, in the face of all tlhese facts and [Mr. Church], who is now absent, was right when the authority I: have quoted (and which I think he moved to amend the original resolution, settles the question beyond a peradventure or a so that the information should come from doubt), undertake to say we will recognize the the proper custodians of that information. Auditor as the only person who can give us It is true, the Auditor might furnish the proper information, as to the whole history it to them; but as they are responsible by law to of the debt, resources and expenditures of the the Legislature, for the transmission of that canal fund. information; so I contend, under the Constitution The PRESIDENT-Does the Chair understand which is now operative, we are to regard the gentleman from Rockland [Mr. Conger], to the Commissioners of the Canal Fund as the propose an amendment? sole depositaries of that information, and we Mr. CONGER-I will, with the permission of have a right to call upon them; and I do not the gentleman from Westchester [Mr. Greeley], think it is very fair, that they should undertake and if he will accept the modification, I move to to put off the information and ask us to wait amend as follows: "That the report be returned until the Auditor reports. I think it is riglht to the Commissioners of the Canal Fund, with the and proper that that Board should have request that at an early a day as possible, they obtained tile information called for by the furnish directly to this Convention, all the statisresolution of the gentleman from Westchester tics called for." [Mr. Greeley], or to have referred it to us. I am Mr. GREELEY-I will accept that amendment. not prepared to go as far as the gentleman from Mr. SCHOONMAKER-I think the gentleman Westchester [Mr. Greeley] does, in saying that from Rockland [Mr. Conger] will find, by referthe Commissioners of the Canal Fund are guilty ring to the law of 1861, that the financial reports.of evasion and effrontery to this Convention in wnich were formerly made by the Auditor to the not responding, because there is an admitted dif- Commissioner of the Ca:nal Fund, are now ficulty, owing to the conflict of powers, generated directed to be made directly to the Legislaby the law of 1848. I am willing, if the gentle- ture, and, I think he will further find, by man from Westchester [Mr. Greeley] will consent the law of 1848 (I have not that law at hand), to modify his proposition in this way, that the that that self-same law makes the Auditor the report be referred back to the Commissioners of custodian of all the papers belonging to tlhe the Canal Fund. with the request that at an early Commissioners of the Canal Fund; and it declares day as practicable they will furnish directly to that after the 31st of October, subsequent to the this Convention all the statistics required in the passage of that law, all accounts formerly kept by resolution, to go for it. the Commissioners of the Canal Fund shall be Mr. ALVORD-Will the gentleman allow me kept by the Auditor when those documents and to interrupt him for a single moment? papers are in his possession, and those accounts Mr. CONGER-Certainly. are to be kept by him, not as Secretary of the Mr. ALVORD-My best recollection about this Commissioners of the Canal Fund, but as Auditor. matter, an'd I think I am not mistaken, is that He is simply, ex officio, Secretary of the Commissince that date, this very law which the gentle- sioners of the Canal Fund. man last quoted here, has been altered, in requir- Mr. GREELEY -I move that this subject be ing that duty to be performed by the Auditor, and laid over until next Tuesday. that the Commissioners do not now report to the Tle question was then put, on the motion of Legislature. Mr. Greeley, to postpone, and it was declared carMr. CONGER-I still think the gentleman is ried. in error. Why, in the last edition of the Revised Mr. VEEDER-I offer the following resoluBStAtutes, should that provision stand as unre- tion for reference., pealed, unless the repeal has taken place within a The SECRETARY proceeded to read the resovery few years, or within the last year. On the lution, as follows: contrary, I think the honorable gentleman from Resolved, That tile Committee on the Right of Onondaga [Mr. Alvord] will admit, that every re-. Suffrage are respectfully requested to consider the port submitted to the Legislature for the last few propriety of incorporating in the Constitution a years, as presented by the Commissioners of the provision authorizing the women in this State who.Canal Fund, has contained this very information- now are or hereafter may become citizens therecompiled, it may be, by the Auditor. Now, Mr. of, to exercise the elective franchise when they President, I am not disposed to stickle about the shall have attained the age of twenty-one years, 135 and generally to enjoy all the rights and privileges of male citizens thereof. Which was referred to the Committee on the Right of Suffrage. Mr. COOKE, moved to take up a resolution offered by him on Tuesday last. The SECRETARY proceeded to read the resolution as follows: Resolved, That the several county clerks in this State be required to furnish to this Convention a statement showing: 1. The aggregate number of days' session of the Circuit Courts and Courts of' Oyer and Terminer, in their respective counties during the year 1866. 2. The aggregate number of days' session of the General Term of the Supreme Court in their respective counties in the same year. 3. The whole number of civil actions for libel, slander, assault and battery, and malicious prosecution, tried in such counties respectively. during the same year, and the aggregate amount of the recoveries therein. 4. The number of causes, originating in Justices' Courts, in which the amount in controversy did not exceed fifty dollars, carried to the Supreme Court by appeal during the same year. Mr. ANDREWS-Mr. President, a resolution embracing inquiries of a similar character to the one which has just been read, was yesterday referred by the Convention to the Committee on the Judiciary, and I suggest that but one inquiry should be made of the various county clerks, embracing all the information required on the several subjects stated and that such a resolution should be prepared by the Judiciary Committee; to that end I would suggest the reference also of this resolution to that committee. Mr. COOKE-I hope that reference will not be made. The gentlemen from Onondaga [Mr. Andrews] is mistaken with regard to the purport of the resolution offered and referred to the Committee on the Judiciary yesterday. It was for an entirely different purpose from this one. This one calls for certain information which ought to be spread before this Convention; it is information that ought to be in the possession of every member who will be called upon to act upon the question of the re-organization of the judiciary of the State. I have no doubt of the ability of the Committee on the Judiciary to perfect an excellent plan for re-organizing the courts of the State, but yet it is hardly possible that any report they may make will embrace the views of the hundred lawyers of this Convention; and it is probable that whatever repoi-t they submit to this Convention will undergo a severe scrutiny and extensive discussion. Th-i information, called for by this resolution, is designed to aid the Convention in determining whether or not the report of the Committee on Judiciary shall be finally adopted, or what plan shall be devised for re-organizing the judiciary. It is true the information obtained will be referred to the Committee on Judiciary, but I claim that the information received should not be confined to the Committee on the Judiciary, but should be laid before the Convention. The question was then put upon the resolution and it was declared adopted. Mr. BURRILL-A resolution was offered by the gentleman from Rensselaer [Mr. Francis], which was referred to the Committee on Cities, in reference to providinga constitutional provision to prevent towns from bonding themselves to build railroads, and I desire to make a motion to reconsider the vote by which that reference was ordered. and to have the resolution referred to the Committee on the Powers and Duties of the Legislature. I ask a unanimous consent, at the present time, to have that motion considered now. Mr. ALVORD-I think that the parliamentary way to reach what the gentleman [Mr. Burrill] desires, would be to move to discharge the Con-, mittee on Cities from the further consideration of the resolution, and that it be referred to the Committee on the Powers and Duties of the Legislature. Mr. WEED-I understand that the resolution referred to was not referred to the Committee on Cities, but to tie Committee on Towns and Counties. Mr. FRANCIS-The resolution was referred to the Committee on Towns, Counties and Villages, and I assent to the motion of the gentleman from New York [Mr. Burrill], that it be referred as he proposed, and I hope the motion will prevail. The question was then put on the motion of Mr. Burrill to discharge the Committee on Towns and Counties from the further consideration of resolution referred to, and to refer it to the Committee on the Powers and Duties of the Legislature, and it was declared carried. Mr. ROBERTSON offered the following resolution: Resolved, That the Committee on the Preamble and Bill of Rights be requested to inquire into and report upon the expediency of amending article six, section one of the Constitution, by excepting from the exemption of an accused person from testifying, against himself-cases in which he shall be offered as a witness on his own behalf. Which was referred to the Committee on the Preamble and Bill of Rights. Mr. SMITH-I desire to call up the resolution offered by myself on Wednesday in relation to the disfranchisement of persons who sell their votes. The PRESIDENT-The Chair is informed that the resolution referred to by the gentleman was lost, and the motion should be rather to reconsider the vote by which it was lost. The resolution was then read, as follows: Resolved, That the Committee on the Right of Suffrage and qualifications to hold office, be instructed to inquire into the expediency of reporting a constitutional provision permanently ex, eluding from the rights of the elective franchise all persons who may be convicted by a court of record of having received money or other valuable thing, to influence or reward their vote,' and to make the offense, with or without such conviction, a cause of challenge and disfranchisement at the polls. Also the pending amendment of Mr. Seaver, to insert after the words "having received," the words " or who have paid or offered to pay." The PRESIDENT announced the question to be on the motion to reconsider. 136 Mr. FIELD -I rise to a point of order, that a motion to reconsider cannot be considered without one day's notice. The PRESIDENT-The Chair is informed that the motion was made some days since. Mr. SMITH-I do not desire to dicuss the question involved in this resolution to-day. I desire simply to state, my object in offering it is to get it before the proper committee so that their attention shall be called to the evil aimed at by that resolution, and the committee have it for their consideration, and to have them report upon it. I believe there is no question that will come before this body for its consideration more important than the question of the purity of the elective franchise, and providing some remedy for the grave evil that now exists. Therefore, it is, that I desire that the committees shall have this question before them for consideration, and at a proper time to submit a report, to enable the subject to be discussed before this body. The question was then put on the motion to reconsider, and it was declared carried. The question then recurred on the adoption of the resolution. The PRESIDENT-Did the Chair understand the gentleman from Fulton [Mr. Smith] to have accepted the amendment proposed by the gentleman from Franklin [Mr. Seaver]. Mr. SMITH-I did not. The resolution as printed is not as it was written and read. The PRESIDENT-Then the question will recur on the amendment of the gentleman from Franklin [Mr. Seaver]. Mr. VERPLANCK-I desire to further amend by striking out the words "with or without such conviction." Mr. MERRITT-I move that the resolution with the amendments be referred to the Committee on the Right of Suffrage without further action of this body. Mr. SMITH-I hope that the amendment of the gentleman from Erie [Mr. Verplanck], will not prevail. The resolution proposes this inquiry for the consideration of the committeewhether upon conviction in a court of record, a, person who sells his vote shall not be permanently disfranchised. The last clause of the resolution proposes this inquiry - whether it shall not be made a cause of challenge at the polls whether a person offering his vote has in fact trafficked in the elective franchise, and if it shall be determined on that occasion by the proper officers and inspectors of the election that he has sold his vote or received a reward for it whether he shall be disfranchised on that occasion, whether he has or has not been convicted. The object is to have an inquiry and examination on the part of an able committee of this body into this subject, and I hope they may have the whole matter before them without being restricted by any vote at present. The PRESIDENT-Will the gentleman from St. Lawrence [Mr. Merritt] state his motion. Mr. MERRITT-I move that the original resolution, with the pending amendments, be referred to the Committee on the Right of Suffrage. ' The question was put on the motion of Mr. Merritt, and it was declared carried. Mr. BECKFORD-I wish to call up a resolution offered by me and laid on the table, and which will be found on page ninety-four of the journal, allowing native born male citizens of this State, between the ages of eighteen and twentyone years to vote. The SECRETARY read the resolution in words as follows: Resolved, That Committee No. 4 on the Right of Suffrage, be instructed to inquire and report as to the expediency and propriety of extending the elective franchise to native-born male citizens of this State between the ages of 18 and 21 years. Mr. BICKFORD-I move to strike out the words " and report. " There being no objection, the resolution was amended as requested by the mover. Mr. L. W. RUSSELL-The Committee on the Right of Suffrage, have such a resolution before them now. The question was then put on the resolution of Mr. Bickford, and it was declared adopted. Mr. FIELD offered the following resolution: Resolved, that it be referred to the Committee on the Organization, etc., of the Legislature, to consider the advisability of providing for the apportionment and election of merbers of the Legislature, substantially, in the following manner. 1. To divide the State into eight legislative districts; the city and county of New York to constitnte one district, the other seven districts to consist of the remaining portion of the State, and to contain, as nearly as practicable, without dividing any county, an equal number of representative inhabitants. 2. Each legislative district, except the district comprising the city and county of New York, to have four senators, to be elected by the electors of the whole district; the first four to be elected at the next senatorial election, and to continue in office respectively, one, two, three and four years, and thereafter, one senator to be elected each year for the term of four years. The district comprised of the city and county of New York, to have such number of senators as its representative population shall entitle it to on the basis or average ratio of representation in the other seven districts; these senators to be elected in a similar manner as those of the other districts; but the full senatorial term in this district to consist of the same number of years as the district has of senators. 3. The members of assembly to be elected for one year. Each legislative district except the first named, to have sixteen members of assembly, and the first named district, a proportionate number, reckoning as in the case of senators. 4. The members of assembly in each legislative district. to be elected by the electors of the whole district, and the election to be conducted in such manner as to enable each party or combination of votes to elect such share of the members elected in the district as it has of the whole vote of the district. Which was referred to the Committee on the Organization of the Legislature. Mr. VAN CAMPEN offered the following resolution: 137 Resolved, That the Committee on the Right of Suffrage be requested to inquire into the expediency of extending the right of suffrage to all male Indians of the age of twenty-one years, residing in this State, who are able to read and write in the English language. Which was referred to the Committee on the Right of Suffrage. Mr. REYNOLDS offered the following resoluiton: Resolved, That the Committee on the Powers and Duties of the Legislature, not otherwise referred be requested to inquire into the expediency of so amending the Constitution, as to prohibit the legislature from passing any law, conferring power upon the constituted authorities of any of the counties, towns, cities, or villages of this State, to borrow money by the issue of bonds, or otherwise, or to contract debts in their corporate capacity, without first having obtained the requisite power therefor, from the popular vote of the communities to be affected thereby. Which was referred to the Committee on the Powers and the Duties of the Legislature not otherwise referred. Mr. HARRIS-Some ten days ago I offered a resolution calling for information in regard to the business of the Court of Appeals. It went over at the request of some gentlemen, and I now ask for its consideration. The SECRETARY proceeded to read the resolution as follows: Resolved, That the Clerk of the Court of Appeals be requested to furnish this Convention with a statement of the number of appeals now pending in that court, distinguishing the years in which, and the districts from which, such appeals were brought. Also the number of cases which were determined by the Court of Appeals during the years 1862, 1863, 1864, 1865 and 1866, respectively. Also the amendment by Mr. Robertson, by adding the following: "And also the amount involved in each case where the matter in dispute be a sum of money." Mr. ROBERTSON-I would state that the Clerk of the Court of Appeals has informed me that the examination suggested by my amendment would require so much time and labor that it would be hardly worth while to delay the inquiry to pursue it in the direction suggested by my amendment although germane to the subject of the resolution. I therefore withdraw my amendment. Mr. BARKER offered the following amendment: After the word "brought," the words "and from what court the appeal was taken. " Mr. HARRIS-I accept the amendment. Mr. PAIGE-Mr. Kernan proposed an amendment to the same resolution, if I recollect right. Mr. HARRIS-Mr. Kernan's amendment was accepted, and is incorporated in the resolution. Mr. RUMSEY offered the following amendment: "And that he includes therein the number of cases decidel by said court in each of the said years, which were entitled to a preference under the existing laws." 18 Which was carried. The question then recurred on the resolution as amended, and it was declared adopted. Mr. PAIGE offered the following resolution: Resolved, That Committee No. 4, on the Right of Suffrage and the Qualification to hold Office, be instructed to inquire into the expediency of amending the Constitution by providing that every person elected to fill an elective office, shall, before he takes the oath of office, or enters upon the discharge of its duties, tate an oath that he has not directly or indirectly paid or advanced any money or property to promote his election to such office, or agreed to do so; and that on his refusal or omission to take such oath, his election to such office shall be void; and that in case such candidate shall be convicted of, directly or indirectly advancing or paying after he shall have entered upon the discharge of the duties of such office, or after he shall have taken the oath last above mentioned to any person or persons, any money or property, as a payment to such person or persons, or indemnification for advancing money or property to promote his election to such office, such candidate shall forfeit such office, or the right to hold the same. Which was referred to the Committee on the Right of Suffrage. Mr. MERRITT moved that the Convention do now adjourn. Mr. SEAVER-I hope that the gentleman will withdraw the motion to allow me to offer a resolution of importance at this time. Mr. MERRITT withdrew the motion. Mr. SEAVER submitted the following report: The Committee on Printing to which was referred the following resolution, viz.: On motion of Mr. McDonald. Resolved, That this Convention hereby order eight hundred copies of the debates to be printed,, and that it be referred to the Committee on Printing to report as to the proper disposition of the same. Respectfully recommend the adoption of the said resolution, and submits the following: Resolved, That one copy of the debates be placed upon the files by the Sergeant-at-Arms. The committee ask permission to make a further report as to the disposition of the remaining copies of the debates at some future day. J. J. SEAVER, Chairman. There being no objection made the Chair announced that the resolution would be considered now. Mr. CONGER moved that the resolution lie on the table until the Convention take up the resolution on the same subject moved by Mr. Field. Which was lost. The question recurred on the resolution reported by the Committee on Printing, and it was declared adopted. Mr. AXTELL-I offer the following resolution and ask its reference to the Committee on the Right of Suffrage. Before the resolution was read, on motion of. Mr. Merritt, the Conventionadjourned to Monday evening, at half-past seven o'clock. 138 MONDAY, JUNE 24., The Convention met at 7j o'clock P. M., pursuant to adjournment. Prayer was offered by Rev. E. P. WADHAMS. The SECRETARY read the Journal of Friday, and there being no objection thereto, it was declared approved. Mr. S. TOWNSEND offered the following resolution: Resolved, That to Committees Nov. 13 and 14 jointly, be referred the question of the policy of interdicting by constitutional provision, the establishment of any corporation, association or other organization, having the leading features of corporations, within this State-without permission of the Legislature. Which was referred to the Committee on Banking and Insurance, and to the Committee on Corporations other than municipal etc. Mr. BELL offered the following resolution: Resolved, That it be referred to the Committee on the Finances of the State, Taxation, etc., and the Powers and Duties of the Legislature in respect thereto, to examine and report upon the propriety of requiring the Legislature to provide a more uniform and equitable system of assessment and taxation; whereby all property, whether real or personal. liable to taxation, shall be assessed at the just and true value thereof, as estimated in ordinary business transactions. Also, whether the law, which allows deductions and abatements, on account of indebtedness, to be made from the valuation of personal property, and withholds such dedLutions from the valuation of real estate, is not unjust in principle, and subject to much abuse in practice. Which was referred to the Committee on the Finances of tho State. Mr SPENCER -I desire to call up the resolution offered by me the other day, requesting the Secretary of State to furnish certain information in regard to the Indian tribes of this State. The SECRETARY proceeded to read the resolution as follows: Resolved, That the Secretary of State be requested to communicate to the Convention a statement containing 1. The number and names of the Indian tribes.residing or holding lands within this State. 2. The number of Indians belonging to each tribe. 3. The location and quantity of lands held by each tribe, distinguishing, so far as practicable, and as appears by the records of his office, lands held in common, and lands held in severalty. 4. Such agricultural and other industrial statistics as may be conveniently and concisely stated. Such statement to be prepared from the latest census and other records pertaining to the subject referred to. The question was then put on the resolution and it was declared adopted. Mr. OPDYKE offered the following resolution: Resolved, That the Committee on the Right of Suffrage be instructed to consider the propriety of restricting the exercise of that right, after the year 1871, to those who can read and write. Which was referred to the Committee on the Right of Suffrage. Mr. A. F. ALLEN offered the following resolution: Resolved, That the Comptroller be requested to report to this Convention the amount of accrued interest remaining unpaid, belonging to the Common School Fund, arising from money loaned, also upon bonds, for lands sold; and the cause why annual interest is not paid. Also, if, in his judgment, any of the bonds for money loaned, or bonds for land sold, are insecurely Invested. If so, what amount, and that the amount of each be reported separately. Which was laid over under the rule. Mr. BOWEN offered the following resolution: Whereas, A resolution has been adopted, instructing the Committee on Education to inquire into the expediency of inserting a provision into the Constitution, making education compulsory; and. Whereas, The perpetuity of our government may depend upon the general diffusion of education and intelligence; yet it is deemed more compatible with our free institutions that the acquisition of education be voluntary on the part of the citizens rather than compulsory; and therejore, as forming a forming a powerful incentive to the voluntary acquisition thereof, be it Resolved, That the Committee on the Right of Suffrage and the Qualification to Hold Office, be respectfully requested to inquire into the expediency of recommending a provision of the Constitution. forbidding any person, who, on January 1st, 1870, is not entitled to the right of suffrage, from thereafter exercising such right unless he be able to read and write the English language, and that the Legislature prescribe what evidence of such ability every such elector shall furnish when he offers to vote. Which was referred to the Committee on the Right of Suffrage. Mr. BALLARD offered the following resolution: Resolved, That the Committee on the Preamble and Bill of Rigllts inquire into the expediency of abolishing presentments by grand juries, and of inserting into the Constitution other modes of presentment for the punishment of offenses. Which was referred to the Committee on the Preamble and the Bill of Rights. Mr. E. P. BROOKS offered the following resolution: Resolved, That it be referred to the Committee on the Judiciary to inquire and report as to the expediency of providing, by constitutional enactment, a limitation for claims against the State; or providing a general law defining the kind and character of claims, other than which the State shall not be liable; limiting the time in which the same shall be prosecuted; and creating a tribunal to be designated "' the Court of Claims," to hear and determine the same. Which was referred to the Committee on the Judiciary. Mr. CARPENTER offered the following resolution: Resolved, That it be referred to the Committee on the Right of Suffrage, to consider the propriety of incorporating in the Constitution the proposed iamendment to section two of article two, as 139 recommended by the Legislature of 1853, and ~. If two classes differ at the same time published at page 1,262 of the Session Laws for upon the same question, their decisions shall be that year. conclusive upon the respective cases, unless the Which was referred to the Committee on the Legislature otherwise provide; but the general Right of Suffrage. term shall by resolution expound the law as it Mr. GRElILEY offered the following resolution s shall govern the court in future like cases. Resolved. That the State Engineer and Surveyor. By a vote of two successive Legislatures, be requested to report to this Convention the three additional judges may be added and an addinames of all contractors now constructing new tional class formed. work on any of the canals of the State, or on the ~. Whenever the calendar shall be so reduced extension or improvement of any such canals; as that in the opinion of the court they can perthe number of the sections held by each under his form the whole duty sitting as one body, they contract; the approximate cost of the work in slall hold only general terms. Thereafter, no each section, if completed in accordance with the vacancy that occurs shall be filled except that the original terms of the contract; what changes, if number shall be kept up to five. But the Legis. any, have been made in any contract; by whom lature may again provide for an increase of the such chalnges, if any, were recommended, and by number, and a division into classes as before, if what authority the same were finally made; and required by an increase of business. the approximate cost of each of such sections ~. The chief judge slall preside upon all when completed in accordance with the plans and trials of impeachments before the Senate, except specifications as amended. that when a judge of the court is impeached the Which was laid over under the rules. president of the Senate shall preside. Mr. W. C. BROWN offered the following reso- ~. The Court of Appeals shall appoint their lution: own reporter, clerk, stenographers and such other Resolved, That the Constitution should contain officers and assistants as the laws may provide to a provision, in these words, relating to the Court aid them in the discharge of their duties; and all of Appeals: so appointed shall hold at their pleasure. SECTION The Court of Appeals shall continue, ~. Each judge shall receive a compensation and, after the first day of next, shall be to be provided by law and not diminished during composed of the judges then in office elected to his continuance in tile office. that courtand five or more in addition, so that ~. In case of the temporary absence of the the whole number shall be nine. Each shall hold chief judge, the court may appoint a chief judge office for life or until arriving at the age of sixty- for the time of the absence; but the court shall five years, or until resignation or removal. In possess no appointing power except as herein procase a vacancy occurs during the recess of the vided. Senate, the Governor may fill the vacancy by an. The judges shall not hold any other office appointment which shall terminate at the end of of public trust; and all votes given for either of their next session. The Governor cannot create them for any other office by the people or the a vacancy by removal nor re-appoint one whom Legislature shall be void. the Senate shall have omitted to confirm. ~. The Court of Appeals shall have only an ~ One of the said judges shall be appointed appellate jurisdiction from the judgments, decrees by the Governor with the consent of the Senate and orders of the Supreme Court, and such other as chief judge to hold by tie above tenure. courts, and in such cases, as the Legislature may ~ A General Term of the Court of Appeals prescribe. But all laws relative to that court reshall be held as soon as practicable after the main in force until the Legislature shall otherwise adoption of this Constitution, upon tile call of the order. chief judge or of a majority of the judges. After- Which was referred to the Committee on the ward, general terms shall be held as the court Judiciary. may prescribe. but not less than four each year. Mr. OPDYDE offered the following resolution: A majority of those in office shall constitute a Resolved, That a select committee of five be quorum appointed to consider the practicability of sup~. The judges shall divide into two or more pressing official corruption, by means of constituclasses, each of which shall be a co-ordinate tional provisions, with instruction to report to the court, and shall hold sessions at such tune and Convention. places as the general term shall appoint; and the Mr. OPDYKE -- Mr. President, as some objecchief judge shall divide the calendar equally and tions have been raised in the Convention against in regular succession. appointing special committees, I desire, if in ~. The decision of either class shall be the order, briefly to state my reasons for asking for judgment of the court, and decisive as authority; this committee. I believe that no one doubts except that, if any judge of any class dissents that an immense deal of corruption exists in this from his associates, lie may certify the case to State, and no one can deny that it is a most serious the general term, where it shall be reviewed with evil. In my judgment it is the most malignant or without further hearing of the partis, as the and dangerous malady, that has ever seized upon general term may, by rules or special order the body politic; it pervades all departments of direct; and the dissenting judge, with the con- government and is rapidly obtaining the mastery currence of the chief judge, may suspend the over the incumbents of office. Whenever it execution of the judgmentin such cases and on gains that supremacy it converts the governsuch terms as may be proper, until a final decision meut into, not an instrument of good, but can be made. an engine of evil. Nor is this all dishonest 140 ats on the part of those occupying high official by the State of all children between the ages position and places of honor and trust of seven and twenty-one years. necessarily exercise a most pernicious influence Which was referred to the Committee on upon the community and are rapidly demoralizing Education. the masses of the people. Unless something can Mr. KRUM offered the following resolution: be done to arrest this tendency, there is serious Resolved, That the Committee on the Right of danger that it will ultimately get the mastery over Suffrage and Qualifications to hold Office be inour whole system of government, or at least make structed to inquire into the expediency of reportit a by-word and a reproach among the nations. ing a constitutional provision or provisions emUnless this Convention can do something to arrest bodying in substance the following: this tendency, I, for one, feel that our labors here 1. Forever disfranchising any and all persons will be of little value to the State. No matter who shall be convicted by a court of competent how wisely or how skilfully we may construct jurisdiction of having either directly or indirectly our political institutions, unless we can secure received or offered to receive any money or other honesty and fidelity in their administration, we valuable thing to influence or reward their vote cannot hope they will produce good government. or votes. Mr. President it is in the hope and I 2. Forever disfranchising any and all persons may add, in the confident belief that we may who shall be convicted by a like court of paying do something to mitigate this evil, that I ask or offering to pay either directly or indirectly to for this committee. I think no member of the any person or persons, any money or other valuaConvention can object, at least to have the ble thing for the purpose of influencing or rewardeffort made. Some one has objected to the ing any particular vote or votes. increase of special committees, in general, 3. Making all such persons competent and comon the ground, that we have standing com- pellable witnesses against each other, with a promittees whose duty it is, to consider every viso that the evidence of neither shall be used proposition that may come before this Conven- against himself. tion, but I think the objection will not lie in this 4. Making such offense, either with or without case. Standing committees have been appointed conviction, a good cause of challenge at the polls. to consider specific articles or provisions of the Which was referred to the Committee on the Constitution, but the subject-matter of this in- Right of Suffrage. quiry pervades every department of government; Mr. SPENCER offered the followingresolution: it is as broad as the Constitution itself, and there- Resolved, That the Committee on the Judiciary fore not a fit subject to be referred to any one of be instructed to inquire into the expediency of the standing committees. In a word, its nature substituting for article 6 of the present Constiand its high importance, alike bespeak for it a tution the following: special reference, and I trust the Convention will ARTICE VI not hesitate to accord it. Mr. HARRIS-I prefer, Mr. President, that SECTION 1. The assembly shall have the power this resolution should lie over until there are more of impeaching all civil officers of this State, for members of the Convention present. mal and corrupt conduct in office, and for high The PRESIDENT-The resolution giving rise crimes and misdemeanors: but a majority of all to debate, it will lie over under the rule. the members elected shall concur in an impeachMr. M. I. TOWNSEND offered the following ment. resolution: ~ 2. The tribunal for the trial of impeachments Resolved, That it be referred to the Committee shall be composed of the president of the Senate, on the Preamble and Bill of Rights to inquire into the senators, or the major part of them, and the the propriety of amending the sixth section of judges of the Supreme Court, or the major part article first of the Constitution by inserting in of them. On the trial of an impeachment against said section, after the words " nor shall be -com- the Governor, the Lieutenant-Governor shall not pelled in any criminal case to be a witness against act as a member of the tribunal. No judicial himself," the words "except in case of accusa- officer shall exercise his office after he shall have tions of bribery or attempt to bribe electors or been impeached, until he shall have been acquitofficial persons." ted, and no person shall be convicted without the Which was referred to the Committee on the concurrence of two-thirds of the members prePreamble and Bill of Rights. sent. Judgment in cases of impeachment shall Mr. KINNEY offered the following resolu- not extend further than to removal from office, tion: and disqualification to hold and enjoy any office Whereas, There is now a law upon our statute under the State; but the party impeached shall books providing for the free education, in our be liable to indictment and punishment according common schools, of all the -children of the State, to law. but which law is liable to be repealed by any ARTICLE VII. future Legislature, thus leaving the great cause of universal education, the basis of all free SECTIQN 1. The judicial power shall be vested government, at the mercy of the ever-changing in a Supreme Court, Superior Courts, courts of Legislatures, therefore, oyer and terminer. county courts, courts of sesResolved, That the Committee on Education be sions, surrogates, justices of the peace, and in respectfully requested to consider the propriety such other courts and offices, and with such powof a constitutional provision requiring the Legis- ers and jurisdictions, as the legislature may, from lature to provide by law for the free education time to time, establish and determine. 141: ~ 2. The Supreme Court shall be composed of a chief justice and his associate justices. ~ 3. In case there shall at any time be, such an accumulation of business in the Supreme Court, that the same cannot be disposed of speedily and promptly, and the fact of such accumulation shall be duly certified by the court to the Governor, he shall, prior to the final adjournment of the Legislature, after being so certified, by and with the advice and consent of the Senate, appoint six commissioners with power to hear and determine such cases pending in said court, as shall by said court be assigned for the purpose. Such commissioners to hold their office for not less than one year, and until they shall have disposed of the business so assigned, and have the same compensation as justices of the Supreme Court. ~ 4. There shall be twenty-four judges of the Superior Courts, which number maybe increased from time to time, as the Legislature may by law determine. ~ 5. The chief justices, and justices of the Supreme Court, and judges of the Superior Court shall be appointed by the Governor, by and with the advice and consent of the Senate, shall hold their office during good behavii,r, and receive at stated times, a compensation for their services, to be determined by law, and which shall not be diminished during their continuance in office. They shall not hold any other office or public trust, nor exercise any power of appointment to public office. ~ 6. Judges of the county courts, and courts of sessions and surrogates, shall be chosen by the electors of their respective counties and shall respectively hold their office for five years. They shall respectively receive for their services, such compensation as shall be determined by the boards of supervisors of their respective counties; to be paid out of the county treasury. The board of supervisors of any county, may by resolution, a copy whereof shall be filed in the office of the Secretary of State, determine that the county judge shall perform the duties of surrogate, and in such case no surrogate shall be elected for such county. ~ 6. Justices of the peace shall be chosen by the electors of their respective towns, as may be provided by law. ~ 7. The chief justice, and justices of the Supreme Court and judges of the Superior Courts, may be removed by the concurrent resolution of both houses of the legislature, if two-thirds of the members of assembly elected, and a majority of the senators elected, concur therein. All judicial officers except those mentioned in this section, and except justices of the peace, and justices and judges of inferior courts, not of record, may be removed by the Senate, on the recommendation of the Governor, but no removal shall be made by virtue of this section, unless the cause thereof shall be entered on the journal, nor unless the party complained of shall have had an opportunity to be heard in his defense. On the question of removal the ayes and noes shall be entered on the journal. ~8. All judges and judicial officers whose terms shall not have expired when this article takes effect, shall hold their office during the terms for which they were respectively elected, but their duties may be transferred to the courts established by this article. ~ 9. All judges and judicial officers whose election or appointment is not herein provided for, shall be elected or appointed in a manner to be provided by law. Which was referred to the Committee on the Judiciary. Mr. EDDY-I move that the resolution offered by the gentleman from Onondaga [Mr. Alvord] to reconsider the resolution offered by the gentleman from Albany [Mr. Harris], to authorize four different committees to employ clerks, be now taken from the table. The question was then put on the motion of Mr. Eddy, and it was declared lost. Mr. BALLARD offered the following resolution: Resolved, That the Committee on the Judiciary inquire into the expediency of requiring the Legislature, at its first session after the adoption of the new Constitution, to provide for the appointment of a reporter of the decisions of the Court of Appeals; and, also, a reporter of the decisions of the Supreme Court, and to be denominated " State reporter," with such tenure of office, duties and compensation as the Legislature may prescribe. Which was referred to the Committee on the Judiciary. Mr. FOWLER - I move to take from the table the resolution offered by me some days since, in reference to incorporating a provisionin the Constitution in reference to prohibiting the Legislature from granting licences to sell spirituous liquors. The SECRETARY proceeded to read the resolution as follows: Resolved, That it be referred to the appropriate committee to take into consideration the propriety of reporting an amendment to the Constitution prohibiting the Legislature from passing any law granting, or authorizing the granting, of any license for the sale of spirituous liquors. The question was put on the motion of Mr. Fowler, and was declared carried. The resolution was then referred to the Committee on the Powers and Duties of the Legislature. Mr. KETCHAM offered the following resolution for reference. Resolved, That it be referred to the Committee on the Judiciary to inquire into the propriety of providing by constitutional enactment for the ltosecution of claims and demands against the State by any citizen thereof in the established courts of the State. Which was referred to the Committee on the Judiciary. Mr. AXTELL offered the following resolution: Resolved, That the Committee on the Judiciary be directed to inquire as to the expediency of establishing a court distinct from the Senate, for the trial of impeachments, and report to this Convention. Which was referred to the Committee on the Judiciary. Mr. PRiNDLE offered the following resolution: Resolved, That it be referred to Committee O 3 142 oh the Powers and Duties of the Legislature etc., to inquire into the expediency of inserting the following provision in the Constitution: " The Legislature shall pass no law extending the time for the collection of taxes in particular counties and towns, but laws may be passed, authorizing the Comptroller to grant extension within such limitation as may be prescribed by the Legislature. Which was referred to the Committee on the Powers and Duties of the Legislature. Mr. AXTELL offered the following resolution: Resolved, That the following article become a part of the Constitution: SECTION 1. There shall be one superintendent of State prisons, who shall be appointed by the Governor, by and with the advice and consent of the Senate. He shall hold his office during good behavior, shall have the general supervision of the State prisons, and shall receive an annual salary, to be ascertained by law. ~ 2. The wardens and agents (or chief executive officers) of the several State prisons, shall be appointed by the Governor, by and with the advice and consent of the Senate; and they shall appoint all their subordinate officers, except chaplains, who shall be appointed in the same manner as the wardens. ~ 3. The Legislature may provide for the appointment for the several state prisons, of local boards of visitors, with powers and duties to be defined by law. Which was referred to the Committee on State Prisons. Mr. BELL offered the following resolution: Resolved, That the Senate Committee charged with the duty of "Inquiring into the management of the canals of this State, the departments thereof" etc., be respectfully requested to furnish this Convention with a copy of the testimony thus far taken on that subject for the information of the committee on canals. Which laid over under the rules. On motion of Mr. M. I. TOWNSEND the Convention adjourned. TUESDAY, JUNE 25. The Convention met at 11 o'clock A.M. Prayer was offered by Rev. E. P. WADHAMS. The Journal of yesterday was read by the Secretary. Mtr. FOWLER-The resolution offered by me yesterday was referred to the Committee on Powers and Duties of the Legislature; it is not so stated in the journal. The journal was corrected as stated. There being no further objection the journal was approved. The PRESIDENT announced the following special committee, called for in the resolution of Mr. Graves, in reference to adulterated liquors, etc.: Messrs. Graves, Livingston, Ely, Cochran, Landon, Roy, Hand, Verplanck. The PRESIDENT presented a communication from the Tax Commissioners of the city of New York, in reply to a resolution of the Convention calling for certain information. The SECRETARY proceeded to read the comr munication as follows: OFFICE OF THE COMMISSIONERS OF ) TAXES AND ASSESSMENTS, NEW YORK, June 22, 1867. To the Constitutional Convention of the State of New York: GENTLEMEN; In accordance with the resolution received by us, requestinga statement to be furnished your honorable body "of the number of tax payers in the city of New York, as the same appears from the records and documents in that office, distinguishing, as far as practicable, between those assessed for real estate and those assessed for personal property," we have caused an examination to be made of the records of the department, and respectfully submit the following statement therefrom: Number of persons assessed for real estate, 44,153. Number of persons assessed for personal estate, 11,653. Number of persons assessed as shareholders of banks, 25,388. Making an aggregate of 81,194. J. W. ALLEN, IRA O. MILLER, Commissioners of Taxes and Assessments. On motion of Mr. HARRIS, the communication was referred to the Committee on Cities, etc., and ordered to be printed. Mr. GERRY offered the following resolution: Resolved, That the clerk of the Assembly be requested to furnish this Convention with a list of all the titles of bills introduced at the last session of the Assembly, relating to or affecting the city of New York. Which was laid over under the rule. Mr. GROSS offered the following resolution: WHEREAS, The use of fermented liquors and wines as a beverage is nearly as old as mankind; and WHEREAS, history has shown that the lse of these gifts of nature and products of human industry cannot be successfully interdicted by the enactment of laws; that the cause of public morals and true temperance cannot be promoted by the passage of sumptuary laws; and that the operation of the civil and criminal laws in this respect should be confined to the regulation of the traffic in these commodities, and to the punishment of drunkenness, disorderly conduct, and offenses against decency, and WHEREAS, it is utterly incompatible with a republican form of government, and with the existence of free institutions, to provide for the regulation of the morals of the people by legislative enactments, or by the organic law of the State, and WHEREAS, The policy of prohibition and temperance by law, whenever attempted, has proved but an unbearable and short-lived despotism, and produced hypocrites and sly sinners, rather than moral and temperate men, and had a tendency to create disrespect for all laws, and WHEREAS, the clamor so often advanced to the effect that all fermented liquors and wines are poison, per se, and injurious to body and mind, is 143 neither borne out by experience nor by the teachings of science, but on close and thorough investigation is reduced to the fact that every article of solid or liquid food or drink used by mankind, may injuriously affect the human system if taken to excess, and, WHEREAS, The character of any crime or offence should never be made to depend on the demarcation of town and county lines, therefore Resolved, That the Committee on Cities be instructed to inquire into the policy, expediency and propriety of providing by the organic law, that regulation and not prohibition of the traffic il fermented liquors and wines, shall be the rule, and that all such general regulations shall be uniform throughout the State, and that the enforcement of the general regulations and the enactment of all special regulations and police regulations, necessary in addition thereto, for the promotion and maintenance of public order, decency. sobriety and morality, shall be reserved to the municipal authorities of the cities and towns of this State. Which was referred to the Committee on Cities, etc. Mr. BARNARD offered the following resolution: Resolved, That document No. 12, as now printed, be taken from the file, and destroyed, together with all copies thereof; and that a new edition be printed with the following corrections: County. P. 0. Address. Barnard, Daniel P., Kings, Brooklyn. Livingston, Walter L., do do Lowrey, Charles, do do Rolfe, John P., do do The question was put on the resolution and it was declared adopted. Mr. DUGANNE offered the following resolution for reference: Resolved, That all claims against the State except canal claims, shall be heard and adjudicated by a board of commissioners of audit, to be appointed by the executive, with the consent of the Senate, with authority to make decisions and awards, for which the State shall issue its bonds, payable in twenty years, with interest not to exceed five per cent, such bonds to be issued by the Comptroller of the State, as for other State liabilities. Which was referred to the Committee on Finances of the State. Mr. COLAHAN offered the following resolution': WHEREAS, numerous accidents have occurred of late years upon the railroads and steamboats 01 this State, resulting invariably in great loss of life, and WHEREAS, such accidents have, in most instances, occurred through the negligence or ignorance of the corporations or companies controlling said railroads and steamboats —and for the reason of the proven inability of the public to receive redress or security from the Legislature of this State and of their ineffectiveness in enforcing the civil remedy now given by statute, against such monetarily powerful and politically influential corporations, ResJlvld, That a committee of five be appointed to consider and devise some action to be had by this body, which will hold said corporations or companies to a more strict accountability for their acts, and make them directly amenable for all losses of life and limb sustained by individuals through their neglect or ignorance, action, that will make them mindfnl of their responsibilities and the obligations they are under to the public at large. Also, that this committee be empowered and directed to ascertain from the proper sources of information, the number of accidents that have occurred, and the number of losses to life and limb for the ten years last past-and report the same to this Convention. Which giving rise to debate, was laid over under the rule. Mr. GREELEY, from the Committee on the Right of Suffrage, offered the following resolution: Resolved, That the use of this hall on Thursday evening of this week, be granted to the Standing Committee on the Right of Suffrage, that they may accord a public hearing to the advocates of female suffrage. The question was put on the resolution, and it was declared adopted. Mr. A. J. PARKER offered the following resolution for reference: Resolved, That it be referred to the Committee on the Powers and Duties of the Legislature to inquire into the expediency of so amending the Constitution as to deprive the Legislature of the power to create corporations, except under general laws. Which was referred to the Committee on the Powers aid Duties of the Legislature. Mr. MERWIN offered the following resolution: Resolved, That in reconstructing the judiciary the following principles should be observed: 1. The Court of Appeals should not be composed of judges of any other court. The judges proper, of the present court, or a like number, should be continued in otfice. not exceeding six years, until the present calendar is disposed of, and a new Court of Appeals should be constituted of sufficient force to dispose of new business as it may arise. 2. No justice of the Supreme Court should sit in review of any case which shall have been tried before him at circuit or special term, but a distinct class of judges should hold general terms, sufficiett in number to dispose of the business, and another class hold circuit and special terms, and the State should be divided into districts sufficient in number and location for the convenient transaction of business. 3. County courts should have a more extended jurisdiction, and in that way relieve as far as may be the Supreme Court. 4. Provision should be made for reforming justices' courts, so that all issues in those courts in civil cases, should be tried by a district justice to be elected in each assembly district. Which was referred to the Committee on the' Judiciary. Mr. L. W. RUSSELL offered the following resolution: Resolved, That Committee 'o. 7, on Town altd County Officers, be instructed to inquire into the expediency of having town meetings for eection 144 of town officers held on the same day throughout the State, and of reporting an amendment to the Constitution therefor. Which was referred to the Committee on Towns and Counties. Mr. ROOT offered the following resolution: Resolvet, That the Committee on Canals have power to investigate their management, and to send for persons and papers. The question was put on the resolution, and it was declared adopted. Mr. A. LAWRENCE offered the following resolution for reference: Resolved, That it be referred to the Committee on the Right of Suffrage, and the qualification to hold office, to inquire into the expediency of so amending the Constitution, as to require a term of citizenship of at least sixty days, as one of the qualifications of a voter, instead of ten days, as is now required. Which was referred to the Committee on the Right of Suffrage. Mr. LANDON offered the following resolution for reference: Resolved, That it be referred to the Committee on the Judiciary to inquire into the expediency of so amending the Constitution as 1. To confer upon the Supreme Court jurisdiction of the various claims against the State commonly known as claims for canal damages. 2. To require the Legislature to define by general laws the liability of the State in respect to such claims, and the manner in which the State may be sued and defended, and judgment enforced in such cases. 3. To prohibit special legislation in such cases. Which was referred to the Committee on the Judiciary. Mr. VAN CAMPEN offered the following resolution: Resolved, That the State Engineer and Surveyor be requested to furnish, at his earliest convenience, in a tabular form, from the reports of the railroad companies of the State, from the 30th day of September, 1850, to the 30th day of September, 1866, made in pursuance of section 31 of chap. 140 of the Laws of 1850, for the use of this House of Delegates, the total amount of freight in tons of 2000 lbs. carried over each road; the number of tons carried one mile, with the amount of each kind of freight classified. Which was laid over under the rule. Mr. SEAVER offered the following resolution: Resolved, That it be referred to committee No. 2 to inquire and report upon the expediency of providing that no officer of either house of the Legislature shall be paid, or allowed in any form, as compensation for services, any other or greater sum than such as shall be prescribed by law for such service before the election or appointment of such officer. Which was referred to the Committee on the Organization of the Legislature. Mr. BICKFORD offered the following resolution: Resolved, That the fee, salary, perquisites and Emoluments of any office held under this State, or any county or city thereof shall not exceed six tousan d9llars per annum over and above neces sary expenses in discharging its duties, and over and above taxation on incomes; the surplus over that sum should be paid into the Treasury of the State; and a Constitutional provision to that effect should be made. Which was referred to the Committee on the Finances of the State. Mr. FIELD offered the following resolution, and moved that it be laid on the table: Resolved, That it be referred to the Committee on Corporations, other than municipal, banking and insurance, to consider the expediency of providing in the Constitution that all corporations composed of shareholders be required to so conduct their elections of directors as to enable such number of shares to elect a director, as bears to the whole number of shares represented at the election the same ratio as unity bears to the number of directors to be chosen. Which was laid on the table. Mr. FIELD moved that the Committee on the Organization of the Legislature be discharged from the further consideration of the resolution offered by himself, in regard to the apportionment and election of members of the Legislature, and that the resolution lie on the table. Which was carried. Mr. DUGANNE offered the following resolution. Resolved, That the committee on canals be instructed to inquire into the nature and character of the dock facilities of the harbor of New York, within the jurisdiction of this State, and the ownership thereof, and to consider the expediency of placing them under like management and control as the canals of the State. Which was laid on the table. Mr. BECKWITH offered the following resolution: Resolved, That the Auditor of the Canal Department be and he is hereby requested to furnish to this Convention the following information: 1. The original cost of the Champlain canal. 2. The cost of any and all enlargements, repairs and improvements thereof. 3. The tolls received in each fiscal year from 1864 to 1866 inclusive. 4. The cost'of collection, superintendence and repairs thereof for each year during the time aforesaid. 5. The tons shipped on the Champlain canal, each year during that time. Stating the same separately from those of the Erie Canal, so far as practicable. Which was laid over under the rule. Mr. BELL offered the following resolution: Resolved, That the superintendent of the Onondaga salt springs be respectfully requested to furnish, for the use of this Convention, the following information in regard to the salt springs and the manufacture of salt: 1. The whole number of salt wells on the "reservation." 2. The number owned and now in use by the State. 3. The quantity of salt, in bushels of 56 pounds each, said wells are capable of producing annually. 4. The least, greatest and average quantity of salt of the different kinds produced therefrom. 145 5. The annual ratio of increase and diminution of production. 6. The principal causes which operate to produce an increase or diminution in the yearly production of salt. 7. The facilities, such as wells, pumps, reservoirs, aqueducts, machinery, labor, or otherwise, which the State furnishes in the manufacture of salt, showing the share of the cost per barrel, borne by the State, in proportion to the whole expense thereof. 8. The minimum, maximum and average price at which salt has been sold at "the works" during the last twenty years. 9. The present price of salt. 10. The whole number of fine salt manufactories or blocks; and the capacity and value thereof; now on the reservation, and by whom owned. 11. The number of coarse or solar salt vats or covers, by whom owned, and the value thereof. 12. The quantity of salt lands leased, to whom, at what rent, and for what term of time. Which was laid over under the rule. Mr. BECKWITH offered the following resolution: Resolved, That it be referred to the Committee No. 9, on Finances, etc., also to the Committee No. 3, on the Powers and Duties of the Legislature to consider upon the necessity and propriety of amending section 9, of article 7, of the present Constitution, so that it shall read " The credit of "the State shall not, in any manner, be given "or loaned to, or in aid of, any individual "association or corporation, nor shall any money "or property of the State be in any manner, given, 'loaned, or appropriated to, or in aid of, any indi"dividual association or corporation, or in aid of "any religious or sectarian institution, society, as"sociation or corporation, that is, or shall be solely "and exclusively under the control or manage"ment of any religious or sectarian church society, 4 association or corporation. Which was referred to the Committees on Finance and on the Powers and Duties of the Legislature. Mr. W. C. BROWS offered the following resolution: Resolved, There-should be a constitutional provision to the following effect: 'The credit of the State shall not in any manner be given or loaned to or in aid of any individual association or corporation, nor shall any money belonging to the State, raised or to be raised by taxation, be loaned or given to any individual association or corporation, except that State contributions to public charities, asylums, schools, academies and colleges may be continued annually, but not exceeding the amount appropriated in any year for such purposes prior to 1866." Which was referred to the Committee on Finance. Mr. MATTICE offered the following. resolution: Resolved, That it be referred to the Committee on Militia and Military Officers, to inquire into the expediency of the following amendments: 1. That provisions be introduced in the Constitution requiring the " active militia," or " national 19 guard," to be at all times armed and equipped and disciplined in such manner as to make them most efficient for active service. 2. That in time of peace, the Governor shall be authorized to order the National Guard to encamp by brigade or divison, for ten days in each year, for military instruction; and that the officers, non-commissioned officers, musicians and privates shall be entitled to such pay and emoluments for each day's service in camp, as the legislature may provide; and regiments shall be furnished transportation by the State, from their head-quarters to camp and return. 3. That whenever the good of the military service may require it, the Governor shall convene boards of the National Guard officers of high rank, to be taken from the action or retired lists, or both, to examine and select for the use of the National Guard the best arms and equipments, camp equipage, means of transportation, ordnance and ordnance stores and other materials of war, and books of instruction; and the same shall be furnished by the State. 4. Officers assigned to duty according to brevet rank shall have the pay and allowance of the full rank. 5. Any National Guard officer who has served continuously in the same grade for ten years may take position upon the retired list, and be exempt from further military duty except when ordered upon detailed duty by the Governor. Officers on the retired list when detailed as members of a board, or otherwise placed temporarily on any important military service by the Governor, shall be entitled, while on such duty, to the same pay and allowances as officers of the same grade in the United States army. Which was referred to the Committee on Militia and Public Defense. Mr. VAN CAMPEN offered the following resolution: Resolved, That when this House of Delegates adjourn on Friday next, they adjourn to meet on Tuesday, July 9th, at 11 o'clock A. M. Mr. BICKFORD-I object to the consideration of the resolution: The resolution giving rise to debate, it was laid over, under the rule. Mr. FIELD offered the following resolution: Resolved, That it be referred to the Committee on Printing to consider and report on the subject of the compensation of the stenographer to the Convention. Which was referred to the Committee on Printing. Mr. ALVORD — I call up the motion offered by me to reconsider the vote by which the resolution offered bythe gentleman from Albany [Mr.Harris], in reference to appointment of clerks to certain committees. The PRESIDENT announced the question on the motion to reconsider. Mr. ALVORD -In looking over the proceedings of the Convention of 1846, a Convention which assembled together here for the first time since 1821, for the purpose of re-organizing the Constitution of this State - a Convention which took up the time of some of the then most able men of this State - a Convention which lasted 146 from its commencement (beginning at the same time of the year that ours begun) until the 8th of the then succeeding October, I find that they had no such thing as a clerk to any of their committees. They were, so far as regarded their officers, limited in the number of them, vastly below that which we have under our organization to-day. I also, sir, from- my past experience, even reaching beyond that Constitutional Convention, and very late in the history of this State, find that the Legislature have not, until but a few years previous to the present time, ever employed clerks to their committees. I have had the honor of presiding, as late as the year 1858, as speaker of the House of the Assembly, collected together in this chamber, and there was not at that time such a thing known as a clerk of a committee. There were, under the rules of the House in times gone by, larger duties placed upon committees than have been subsequently, when almost every committee of the House has had a clerk. Reports had to be reduced to writing, and instead of being delivered orally and with slips printed as has been the custom in more modern times, they were laboriously drawn up, giving the facts in each case, brought by the committee to the consideration of the Legislature, and concluded with the reasons for the report of the committee. This was all the labor of the individual members or of the presiding officer of a committee and no reason was found until modern times, why this duty should devolve upon an outside person, to be called a clerk. It seemed to me at the time it was first inaugurated, that it was simply for the purpose of creating offices to be filled by hangers-on around the Legislature. My experience has been, sir, in the few past years in which this practice has obtained, that these men have been the most efficient engines in the employ of the lobby for the purpose of clogging the legislation of the State. But, sir, I trust that in this Constitutional Convention there is by no possibility any necessity whatever for clerks. What do we do, sir? We meet together for the purpose of consultation as committee men; if there are distinct and separate propositions made by any individual member of a committee, they come there in his handwriting; they are drawn up; they are only parts and parcels of our business, and require not to be re-engrossed in any proceedings which we may take, and all that there would be for a clerk ordinarily to do, would be to see that our papers were kept together, and to see that they would be kept in some little order, so far as regarded their precedence, when they are brought before the committee, and when they are being acted upon by the committee, and to keep, and take care of the room in which we as a committee may meet. Now, Sir, I think we have eight door-keepers, men who are employed here during the period of the session, some two or three hours each day; they like us, are under the necessity of being present at these sessions of the Convention; but unlike us, sir (if we do not employ them some other way), they are at liberty the moment the session is dissolved, while we have to go into our respective committee rooms and work laboriously a large portion of the day, outside of our duties here. Now, it would seem to me, eminently proper, that some three or four, or more, of these doorkeepers should be selected by the presiding officer of this Convention and given to these four great committees to act as custodians of their papers and to see to the regulation and management of their committee room; and to do all that by any possibility is necessary for a clerk to do in the capacity in which we should employ and use a clerk in our committees. I trust, therefore, while we have got together here for the purpose of endeavoring to produce economy in the future administration of the governmental affairs of this State, we shall not inaugurate this system, small though it may appear to be, in favor of a greater diffusion of expenditure and increase in the number of officers. I trust, therefore, the motion to reconsider in this case will prevail. Mr. EDDY - I have been a silent, though not an uninterested listener to the debates of this Convention thus far, and confess that I am surprised at the course taken in what I consider an unwarranted and unjustifiable expenditure of public money. It is expected, by my constituents at least, that this Convention will set an example in that particular, worthy to be followed by future Legislatures. That the Empire State occupies a prominent position as well as an influential one among her sister States is everywhere admitted; that an odium has been cast upon our legislative body, whether deservedly so or not, for corrupt legislation, is nevertheless true. I. sir, do not envy the position of those delegates, although largely in the majority, who voted in favor of the resolution for the unnecessary and extravagant expenditure for public printing. The measure, sir, as probably the delegates have found, if they have mingled with their constituents, is decidedly unpopular with the people, and now, sir, shall we allow the vote to stand authorizing four additional clerks for this Convention. It is contended that the business of those committees, which these clerks are to serve, is much larger than that of the other committees. If I understand the matter the committees are increased in number in proportion to the business, and there will be sub-committees appointed and the work divided up, so that the work a clerk would do can be arranged and distributed so as not to press heavily on any single member of the committee. Further, if I understand the honorable gentleman, the Chairman of the Judiciary Committee [Mr. Folger] whose duties are probably more laborious than any other; he himself is opposed to the measure. I hope the motion to reconsider will prevail, and when the vote is taken, the yeas and nays will be called. Mr. AXTELL -I rise to a question of privilege The gentleman who has just sat down said, " I do not envy the action of the majority of those men who the other day voted for an unwarranted and unnecessary expenditure of the public money." I should say this is a breach of privilege of this house. The PRESIDENT —What remedy does the gentleman propose? Mr. AXTELL — I propose no remedy. The PRESIDENT - The Chair suggests none. N 147 Mr. SEYMOUR -I call for the reading of the resolution in regard to which it is proposed to reconsider the vote on its adoption. The SECRETARY, then proceeded to read the resolution as follows: Resolved, That the Committee on the Judiciary, Finance, Canals and Cities, each be authorized to employ a clerk for their respective committees. Mr. L. W. RUSSELL-I find rule 32 says: "All resolutions authorizing or contemplating expenditures for the purposes of the Convention, shall be referred to the standing Committee on Contingent Expenses, for their report thereon, before final action by the Convention." I think this is a matter that ought to go to that committee. The PRESIDENT -The Chair is of opinion that this resolution was originally introduced before the rules were adopted, and if so, this rule would hardly attach. Mr. L. W. RUSSELL-I shall vote for the motion to reconsider in that case. Mr. HARRIS - I have no very great anxiety that the resolution which has been adopted, and the vote on which is now moved to be reconsidered, should be made a permanent order of this body. I had supposed when I offered the resolution that it was a thing that would commend itself to the judgment of this Convention. There are four large committees, consisting of fifteen members each; they are charged with very important and responsible duties. Now, every gentleman who is at all experienced in such proceedings knows that there is a great deal of mechanical labor-what may be called drudgery, that somebody must perform. Now, sir, I have been accustomed to labor all my life; I have had the honor of being assigned to the head of one of these important committees; I can do as much work as any other man on that committee or any other committee; and if the Convention feel and are of the opinion that I ought to perform this drudgery, this mechanical labor, which I had proposed to asisgn to the clerk, I shall submit to it, and submit to it cheerfully. It seems to me it will be an economy of time -an economy of labor to allow this kind of mechanical work, which we all know must be performed in these large committees, to be performed by a clerk. I should be glad to have a clerk to the committee to which I belong, but if the Convention judges otherwise, I will try to get along as well as other gentlemen here. Mr. ALVORD called for the ayes and noes. and a sufficient number seconding the call, they were ordered. Mr. PRINDLE -It seems to me, Mr. President, this resolution is entirely proper, and one which ought to have been adopted by this body, notwithstanding all we have heard said against it, and notwithstanding all that has been thrown out in regard to members of this Convention who voted for it and who also voted for the printing of the debates. So far as the power of the Convention is concerned to pass such a resolution, I think there can be no question about it. It seems to me that the Legislature, even if they intended so to do, had no authority whatever to restrict this body in regard to its necessary expenses. We are not here by virtue of the act of the Legislature alone, but we are here by the authority of the Constitution of the State of New York, and by the authority of a vote of the people of the State of New York. The Constitution prescribes this, and prescribes that the Legislature shall provide by a law, for the election of delegates to such Convention. It was the business of the Legislature simply to pass an enabling act, and it had no power to restrict this Convention. Suppose, sir, they had made no appropriation to pay the expenses of this Convention at all, would we have no right to act here? Would we have no right to employ printers to do our printing, or employ persons to do anything else necessary to be done for this Convention? It seems to me clear that we have that right, and just as clear that we have the right to employ these clerks, and that in doing so we do not go beyond what is necessary and proper. It is true, we might do without these clerks, although, perhaps, rather inconveniently. But I concur entirely in the remarks of the gentleman from Albany [Mr. Harrls], as to the fact that these clerks are necessary and proper. There is this amount of work to be done by somebody; some member of the committee has to do this " drudgery," as it has been termed. In the first place, I think, for the convenience of the different members of the committee, a book ought to be kept, in which should be recorded the transactions of the committee. I think that every motion, every resolution, and every amendment ought to be recorded in that book, and the whole proceedings of the committee, also, in order that members who may be absent at the different sittings of the committee may have the opportunity to learn what has been done in their absence. Some member of the committee has got to take it upon himself to do this work unless the committee have a clerk to do it; they must go to this body and that body, and to this officer and that officer for information, and must prepare the reports, must see to the room; and if anyone member of the committee is bound to do all this work, then he cannot participate in the deliberations of the committee, and he will have no time to spare to attend to the objects for which he was sent to this Convention. I say it is entirely proper that a clerk should be employed for the Judiciary Committee; but if the chairman of that committee does not want a clerk for it, or chooses to perform these duties himself, then there is no necessity for it to employ a clerk under this resolution. But certainly for the other large committees I think these clerks are necessary, and I shall vote against the motion to reconsider. The question was then put on the motion of Mr. Alvord to reconsider, and it was carried by the following vote: Ayes — Messrs. A. F. Allen, 0. L. Allen, Alvord, Andrews, Ballard,.Barker, Beadle, Beckwith, Bell, Bergen, Bickford, E. Brooks, E. P. Brooks, J. Brooks, Carpenter, Case, Cheritree, Church, Cochran, Collahan, Conger, Cooke, Curtis, C. C. Dwight, EIddy, Ely, Ferry, Field, Folger, Fowler, Gerry, Gould, Grant, Graves, Greeley, Hadley, Hand, Hitchcock, Houston, Ketcham, Kinney, Landon, Lapham, Larremore, A. Lawrence, M. H. Lawrence, Lee, Livingston, Ludington, McDonald, Merritt, Merwin, Miller, C. E. Parker, Pond, Pot 148 ter, Prosser, Rathbun, Reynolds, A. D. Russell, L. W. Russell, Schoonmaker, Seaver, Strong, S. Townsend, Williams, Young — 67. Noes- Messrs. N. M. Allen, Archer, Armstrong, Axtell, Barnard, Barto, Bowen, E. A. Brown, W. C. Brown, Burrill, Cassidy, Champlain, Chesebro, Clark, Corbett, Corning, Duganne, T. W. Dwight, Endress, Francis, Frank, Fuller, Fullerton, Garvin, Goodrich, Gross, Hammond, Hardenburgh, Harris, Hatch, Krum, Lowrey, Mattice, Merrill, More, Morris, Nelson, Opdyke, Paige, A. J. Parker, President, Prindle, Robertson, Root, Roy, Schell, Schumaker, Seymour, Smith, Spencer, Tappen, M. I. Townsend, Van Campen, Van Cott, Veeder, Verplanck, Wales —57. The PRESIDENT then announced the question to be on the original resolution of Mr. Harris. Mr. BARKER moved to lay the resolution on the table. Which was lost-ayes 52, noes 54. Mr. BICKFORD moved that the consideration of the resolution be postponed indefinitely. Mr. VAN CAMPEN moved to amend the motion by referring the resolution to the Committee on Contingent Expenses. The PRESIDENT - The motion to postpone indefinitely is not amendable. The question was then put on the motion of Mr. Bickford to postpone the consideration of the resolution indefinitely, and it was declared lost. Mr. VAN CAMPEN moved that the resolution be referred to the Committee on Contingent Expenses. Mr. BALLARD - I desire, Mr. President, that the question shall be disposed of now, and I hope that the Convention will take action at once. The question was then put on the motion of Mr. Van Campen to refer the resolution to the Committee on Contingent Expenses, and it was declared lost. A count being called for, the Secretary announced 49 ayes, when the noes were called for and members rose in response. Mr. M. I. TOWNSEND -Mr. President, is this resolution, now before this body, not properly referable under our rules to a committee? The PRESIDENT-The Chair has decided that, inasmuch as the resolution was introduced before the rules were adopted, as the Chair has been informed, it was proper to be considered by the Convention without a reference. Mr. L. W. RUSSELL- The rules were adopted on the 13th day of June, and the motion of the gentleman from Albany [Mr. Harris], was adopted on the 19th day of June, so that the motion was adopted when the rules were already in force and therefore it was properly referable under rule 32. The PRESIDENT —If there be a mistake, it would be proper to have the resolution referred to the committee. Mr. FOLGER- This resolution does not contemplate an expenditure. We cannot pay the clerks. There is no power on the part of this Convention to pay a clerk one cent. We can appoint them, but we cannot appropriate one cent for their compensation. Mr. SMITH -If that be so, what is the use of the debate that we have had upon the question of expenditure? Mr. ALVORD —I suggest another point of order. It is unquestionably true that if this position had been taken in the first place, it would have been right to have sent the resolution to the.Committee on Contingent Expenses. But the Convention having taken action on the subject without objection on the part of any member, and the resolution having been considered in the Convention without going through the operation of sending it to the committee, the Convention cannot, at this stage of the proceedings, insist upon the reference to the committee without its affirmative vote. The PRESIDENT - The Chair is of the opinion that the point of order is well taken. Mr. CONGER -Mr. President, I desire to say briefly this-that I think this matter properly comes within the subject of contingent expenses. If any of these committees desire to have a clerk, it is right and proper that they should have one. Mr. BALLARD —I rise to a point of order, that as a vote was being taken when the question was raised, and the result had not been declared and the debate on the matter was begun while members were still standing, therefore the debate is out of order. The PRESIDENT-The Chair was under the impression that the vote had been announced on the motion of Mr. Van Campen, but it has been informed by the Secretary that such was not the fact. The question is on the motion of the gentleman from Cattaraugus [Mr. Van Campen], to refer the subject to the Committee on Contingent Expenses. Mr. CONGER -I have no desire to detain the Convention, but I hopeMr. LEE -I rise to a point of order, that we were in the midst of deciding the question by a vote when the debate commenced. The ayes had been taken and declared, and the noes had been called for, and we were in the act of rising when - The PRESIDENT - The question will be taken again. Points of order were taken which the Chair felt bound to recognize. The question now is upon the reference of the resolution to the Committee on Contingent Expenses. Is the Convention ready for the question? Mr. CONGER- Am I in order, Mr. President in taking the floor? The PRESIDENT -You are. Mr. CONGER- Then, Mr. PresidentMr. BICKFORD -I rise to a point of order. My point is, that the gentleman is not in order in rising when the question is being put. The PRESIDENT - The gentleman is in order, and he will confine his remarks to the question of reference. Mr. HAND- Is it in order, when the question is being taken and members are voting, to open debate upon it? The PRESIDENT-It is in order to raise such points of order as were raised. Mr. CONGER-Mr. President: the proposed reference I believe to be proper. The question is within the general subject of the contingent expenses of this body. The last Legislature made an appropriation of $250,000 to cover certain expenses of this body, therein specifying all other expenses which would be con 149 sidered and treated as necessary expenses, or within the class of contingent expenses of this body. Having made such an appropriation, sufficient in amount to cover the contingent expenses, if it is necessary for the convenience and comfort of any of these committees to have a clerk, that clerk can be so appointed, and so provided for that his pay will come out of the contingent expenses of the Convention. As we have framed our rules in constituting this body, we have no longer power to appoint a clerk; but we have appointed a Secretary to this body and given him power to employ the necessary clerks to assist him. I think it is the proper and the best way, that this Convention should detail one or more of these clerks from time to time as they may be needed by these committees, or allow the Secretary to appoint such other assistants as may be necessary to perform the service. The whole question comes within what is ordinarily known as the contingent expenses of this body. We are not obliged to do what we otherwise would have to do, having appointed clerks, to call upon the next Legislature by a special provision to appropriate a sum of money as a just compensation for their services. I am one of those, Mr. President, who desire to keep within the law. I do not deny that the Convention has powers, in some respects, higher than the Legislature; but, as we are convened for the purpose of repressing unnecessary expenses, among other objects, it seems to me exceedingly injudicious when there is an ample provision of $250,000, already made by appropriation to cover the contingent expenses of this body, that we should shiftlessly adopt a method which would oblige us in sheer necessity before we adjourn, to ask the Legislature to make an appropriation for some one object, because we have not exercised the skill to appoint those persons in some such way as to bring their compensation within our contingent and necessary expenses. Therefore, I think this proposed reference is right. and I hope the Committee on Contingent Expenses will so consider the subject that they can recommend the detailing of some person here already appointed, or who may hereafter be appointed, to do this work. Mr. M. I. TOWNSEND -I desire to call the attention of the gentleman from Rockland [Mr. Conger], and the Convention, to a provision of the third section of the act which limits the powers of the Secretary to the appointment of three assistants. Mr. SEYMOUR-I wish to say but a single word in reference to this subject. I hope that the motion which has been made by the gentleman from Cattaraugus [Mr. Van Campen], to refer the question to the Committee on Contingent Expenses, will not prevail. I should prefer to have the action of this Convention upon the matter. In reference to the appointment of clerks to the several committees, there may be a diversity of opinion as to their necessity to assist the labors of one committee or another. I can say in regard to the committee upon which I have the honor to be placed-the Committee on Canals-that if' the resolution which has been adopted by this Convention this morning, which is a resolution of inquiry into the management of canals, and authorizing the committee to send for persons and papers, is to be acted upon by that committee, there cannot be the least doubt of the necessity of such a clerk. Any body who knows the extensive nature of that subject, and knows also, that if the committee shall go into its investigation and make a thorough report upon it to this Convention, must know that a clerk is indispensable. I don't know what may be the views of the Committee on the Judiciary in regard to the business before them. I do not know what mode they intend to adopt to reach their conclusions which they will report to this body; but whenever the chairman of that committee, or the chairman of any other committee of this Convention, shall rise in his place and state the necessity of the committee to have a clerk, and give his reasons therefor, I shall be disposed, for one, to grant that committee the facilities necessary for the purpose of accomplishing their work, that the subjects submitted to them may be properly brought before the consideration of this Convention. Now, sir, if this motion of the gentleman from Cattaraugus [Mr. Van Campen] should not prevail, and the Convention should be brought to a direct vote upon the resolution of the gentleman from Albany, if it is practicable in the view of the Chair, I should like the question to be divided so that it may be taken upon each of these committees, and we can then decide, each member of the Convention in his own view, in reference to the necessities of these several committees for having a clerk, and vote in reference to each one separately. I, therefore, hope that the motion of the gentleman from Cattaraugus [Mr. Van Campen], will not prevail, and that we may come to a vote, and have tlis question disposed of in reference to the wants of each committee. I do not know with regard to the committee of which the gentleman from Albany [Mr. Harris], is chairman. I am willing to take his word, as he is at the head of that influential committee, to which important resolutions have been referred, and who are now seeking information, statistical and otherwise, as to their necessity for a clerk. I do not know but it will be necessary for that committee to employ a clerk in order to embody the results of their inquiries addressed to different parts of the State; and certainly I am willing to take the gentleman's word that he needs a clerk for the purpose of embodying that information, so that he may lay it before this Convention I know certainly that it will be necessary for the Committee on Canals, if they go into the investiga. tion which has been indicated by the resolution of the Convention this morning that they should have a clerk. As to the Committee on Finance, and other committees, they can speak for themselves. I hope therefore, that the motion of the gentleman from Cattaraugus [Mr. Van Campen], will not prevail, and that the Convention will come to a direct vote (for it is time that we had settled these questions), with reference to each committee separately. M1r. HARRIS-I move to amend the motion Iby referring the resolution to the four committees 7i 150 named in the resolution, that they may each report upon the subject to the Convention whether or not they need or desire clerks. Mr. VAN CAMPEN - I accept the amendment. Mr. HARRIS —We certainly do not want to force a clerk upon a committee that does not desire to have one. With respect to the committee of which I am chairman, I certainly should be glad to have the services of a clerk. But I am not anxious. But there is a good deal of work to be done; but I can do it. I can be clerk as well as chairman; I can serve the notices to call the committee together; I can take care of the room; and if necessary, I can sweep the room: I can keep the records and perhaps keep them better than a clerk,. and make a better clerk than I would a chairman. But I am not very anxious that we should have a clerk. I feel, however, that much of my time could be saved for the performance of my duties as a member of the committee by having a clerk, and I hope that the committees will be allowed themselves to decide this matter. Mr. VAN CAMPEN - I accept the amendment of the gentleman from Albany [Mr. Harris]. Mr. DUGANNE —I voted for the resolution to reconsider because I thought the proper method of doing business in this Convention is to refer all matters which come up for discussion to their proper channels, that they may go there to be examined and reported to this Convention. I shall, therefore, be in favor of giving this whole subject to the Committee on Contingent Expenses; and I shall, also, be in favor of a reconsideration of all other matters including that in reference to the debates. The PRESIDENT-TThe Chair will inform the gentleman from New York [Mr. Duganne] that that proposition is not now before the Convention. Mr. tUGANNE —I am aware that it is not. I merely alluded to the fact. I hope that this resolution will go to the Committee on Contingent Expenses, that they will report upon it, and we shall then be ready to decide upon the question. That committee can ascertain the facts as well as if we should refer it to the four committees named, as the one committee can ascertain which of the four committees desire clerks, and can report the fact to this house. Then the matter will come before us presented in the shape of a report stating whether or not the appointment and payment of clerks is a necessary and contingent expense of the Convention. Mr. FOLGER-Lest there be some misunderstanding as to the views of the Judiciary Ccmmittee, I will state, that so far as I am entitled to speak for that committee, they would be very glad to have a clerk. They can foresee and anticipate much labor in the performance of their duties, which has been aptly termed by the gentleman from Albany [Mr. Harris] " drudgery." But have they a right to have a clerk? That is the question with the committee. I may be traveling over a dusty road, on a warm day on foot, and some person passes me in a comfortable carriage with fleet horses, I may desire to avail myself of that equipage, but I have no right to. I must trudge on, on foot, because that is where fortune and necessity has put me. So it is in this matter. It has been said by the gentleman who sat behind me [Mr. Prindle], that this Convention is above the Legislature, because it is called in pursuance of the Constitution, and does not owe its life to a legislative act. I differ with the gentleman in that view, although I do not intend to go into any discussion of the question. I think that it has its whole life from the Legislative act and from nowhere else. In my view we are tied to the provisions of the legislative act and cannot step outside of the provisions of that act to incur any expenditure. That act does not contemplate or provide for the appointment of clerks of committees. It was drawn with reference to the public clamor, not unfounded, in reference to the unnecessary expenses of the legislature. This Convention was to be concerned in questions of economy; before its close it would ring with denunciations for the want of economy on the part of the Legislature, and would be very much concerned in measures providing for the economy of future Legislatures, and the act was drawn with reference to all that. It was designed to keep the expenses of this Convention as limited as possible. I hold that we cannot go outside of the provisions of the act and incur any expenditure. Is there a provision in the act for a clerk of a committee? Is there any provision for his payment? There is, to be sure, the physical power to appoint clerks of committees; but when the clerk thus appointed takes his certificate from the chairman of the number of days he has served, and goes to the Comptroller of the State, how does the Comptroller fix the amount of his compensation? Does he ask a per diem? Where is the law which fixes the per diem? Does he ask for his pay by the folio? Where is the law which fixes his pay by the folio? Does he ask a gross sum? Where is the law which fixes that gross sum? The necessity exists right at the threshold of referring the amount of compensation and the manner in which it shall be paid to some future body, which shall be occupied with details of legislation and not with general principles. We cannot pay a clerk, for the reason that we have not the right to appropriate money out of the State treasury; and the Constitution which we have sworn to support when we took our seats, expressly prohibits the payment of money out of the treasury, except it be under the authority of law, and an act appropriating it. We are not lawmakers for the purpose of making appropriations of money, and for this reason we have no right to appoint clerks, for there is no authority existing for their payment. As much as I would desire to have a clerk to the committee of which I am a member, and as much as other committees may desire to have clerks, they cannot be legally appointed, and it was for that reason that I voted in favor of the motion to reconsider the resolution offered by the gentleman from Albany [Mr. Harris]. 4 151 Mr. HARRIS - I agree, Mr. President, with the gentleman from Ontario [Mr.Folger],that this body has no right to make an appropriation to pay the clerks of committees, but I do not agree with him that therefore, we are to go without the necessary clerks. There are expenses which this body have already incurred, and which they will continue necessarily to incur, and which will have to be provided for by law. In the course of our proceedings, we passed a resolution inviting the clergy of this city to open our sessions with prayer. Now, sir, we cannot pay these clergymen; we do not expect to pay them, nor will the Comptroller now audit any account for their compensation. Yet, the next Legislature will provide for their payment, for it is the ordinary usage followed on such occasions. We have already, by a very emphatic vote, provided for the publication of the debates of this Convention, and we have agreed that those who publish them shall receive for their publication a large amount of money. We have no power to provide for the payment of' that account. It will be necessary for the next Legislature to provide for it; so, I suppose in relation to various other incidental contingent expenses which will arise in the progress of our sessions. We shall have occasion to incur expenses, and these expenses will have to be provided for by the Legislature, not having been provided for in the act under which this Convention is organized. I do not suppose that there is any impropriety in it. It is a simple question of whether we need the services of clerks, or can do without them, and the payment of those clerks if we determine to have ther, will be a matter in the discretion of the next legislature. Mr. VAN CAMPEN- On this question to refer the resolution to the committees I desire to notice two or three points. I hold that in the law authorizing the meeting of this Convention, by its terms, to some extent, those things which are necessary, which grow out of the very necessities of this Convention, are entirely proper for us to provide for by our action, that though they are not specified in particulars, they are implied generally. Three or four committees I understand, ask for clerks. I think that almost every gentleman in this body will concede that the work of these committees is such that they will require clerks. While there is no specific provision for clerks in the law which authorizes the meeting of this Convention, I think that by the principles of good sense, sound discretion and judgment which we must exercise in our ordinary affairs in life, there is an implied authority for their employment. The question of economy has been suggested. Every day that this Convention is in session it is attended with an expense of fifteen hundred dollars. The employment of two or three or four clerks would amount perhaps to a cost to the State of one thousand dollars, and, yet, a day is occupied in discussing this question involving a greater loss to the State than would be sustained if the clerks were employed. Where is the economy in thus protracting this debate? These are proper questions for consideration to go before the community. When gentlemen undertake to bring the question of economy up in reference to this matter there are two sides to it. I have no doubtthat the employment of these clerks would save the time of this Convention, from three to four days or a week, and it is with that view, that it will be a saving of tle time and add to the convenience of the Convention, and be an advantage to its labors, if the committees referred to think they need clerks, that I favor the resolution. Mr. SMITH' —I hope that the motion of the gentleman from Albany [Mr. Harris], will prevail. I believe that the chairmen of these various committees. and all the gentlemen who have voted for providing clerks to those committees are in favor of a wise and judicious economy in the proceedings of this Convention, as well as in the administration of the affairs of the State. But, sir, there is such a thing as a spurious and buncombe economy, and there is some danger, I fear, that we may run into that. Now these committees are charged with very important duties - duties which affect the interest and the welfare of the people of this great State, and which probably will affect those interests for the next twenty years. We desire, and the people desire that in the discharge of those duties, we shall have all the time, all the ability and all the experience of the members of these committees upon the great subjects which are given into their charge; and that they shall not spend their time and devote their attention to these little matters - matters of routine and of drudgery which can just as well be performed by men who have not their experience nor their ability. Now it seems to me, it would be bad economy-it would be unwise to take up the time and the ability of these men from the consideration of these grave questions with which they are charged, by compelling them to do the work of a clerk. A simple clerk without their experience and ability might just as well perform those duties. It is said that we have not the power. I have always understood that it is a well-settled principle, and one of very general application, that wherever a duty is imposed, and wherever a power is given or enjoined, all the necessary incidental powers for the purpose of discharging that duty, and executing that power are given with it. If we are to be tied up to the provisions which were made by the Legislature when they passed this enabling act, and cannot step an inch beyond the boundary they have prescribed, or the limitations they have made, we are very much restricted and cramped in the performance of our duties. It seems to me that in the discharge of these duties, we are called upon here, whenever the necessity arises for incurring an expense, to step beyond the limitations which they have prescribed; and we may do so, provided we do not violate any of the rules and principles that ought to govern such a body in the discharge of its duties. I can see no danger in providing for these clerks and leaving it, as has been suggested, to the next Legislature to pay them such compensation as they may be entitled to. [t seems to me, Mr. President, that we treat with disrespect the chairmen of these committees who come before us and say that they require the 152 services of a clerk to enable them to perorm their duties, when we turn around and say " you do not need a clerk, and are not entitled to one." For myself, I have entire confidence in the chairmen of these committees when they state to us the existence of that necessity. I believe what they say. I give them credit for truth and honesty of purpose when they ask for this assistance. It strikes me it would be petty - it would be foolish in this body, to say that they shall not have ample means, that they shall not bring to their aid the necessary help in performing the duties that are assigned to them in this Convention. I hope, sir, while we adhere to the strict rule of wise economy, we shall not attempt to manufacture a cheap reputation for economy to go before the people for the purpose of making or marring political reputations. I believe, sir, that whatever we may do for the purpose of properly performing our duties here, the people will sanction. I have no fear of submitting my conduct in this Convention to my constituents in reference to the votes which I shall give in favor of the expenditures suggested, notwithstanding the strictures made in reference to the record to be submitted to the people. Mr. FOLGER - At the risk of eliminating from the speech of the gentleman from Fulton [Mr. Smith], the most effective part of it, I must say that he has misconceived, if, in what he says of buncombe economy and cheap reputation he alludes to any portion of what I said. I did not urge that clerks should not be appointed on the score of the economy of this Convention. I did not urge any such idea for the sake of making a cheap reputation among my constituents. I urged it upon this principle, that we were here setting an example if we vote these clerks and other like things, for a future Legislature to pay for, of incurring a responsibility without right, and with no law to justify it. There is not a session of the Legislature passes, but what this State is mulcted in a hundred thousand dollars and upward, by just such resolutions as this. Some member rises in this chamber and offers a resolution that fifty red books be given to each member, officer and reporter. Where is the law that authorizes an Assembly or a Legislature to go into the publication of red books? No such law exists. The member knows it; the Assembly knows it, and the printer himself who furnishes the books, knows it. He knows that the resolution is of itself mere waste paper, and that when he builds his action upon it in the printing of the books, he is building upon the sand; that nobody has a legitimate claim, founded upon any such resolution. But what is the result? Time runs along, and the next thing we have, is what is called the Supply Bill, and in that Supply Bill, there is a little sentence like this - " To Weed, Parsons, & Co., for Manuals for the year 1866, $5,000, $10,000, or $50,000," whatever it may be. And that is the first right they get to their money. Until that law is passed, the Comptroller ignores their claim, and they draw nothing from the State. It is for these reasons, that I here set my face against such action, as I have set it every where, whether it be " cheap reputation " or not. I have voted against those resolutions, because not founded upon any law; not but what it is convenient to, have red books to answer the demands of my constituents, to be paid for out of the treasury of the State. instead of out of my own pocket, but because there is no antecedent law to lustify any such expense. The Constitution says that no money shall be spent, except it be appropriated by law. Yet that is what we are initiating here, witlout anything to authorize us. In passing this resolution we are on the edge of a revolving vortex which may draw in every imaginable expenditure. Mr. HITCHCOCK-Every committee may ask a clerk. Mr. FOLGER-As the gentleman from Washington [Mr. Hitchcock], properly says, every committee might ask a clerk, and the gentleman from Fulton [Mr. Smith,] says, if any chairman shall state that his committee needs a clerk, he would vote that committee one. I say that we are here to establish some principle, some restriction by which the reckless extravagance of legislation may be prevented. The very action which is proposed here, will create the extravagance in the Legislature, by the example which is set. A resolution is introduced on the moment, and is passed without any authority of law; but bye and bye, with kindly feelings toward the printer, or whatever person it is who furnishes the means to carry out the resolution, a clause is put in the Supply Bill, to retrospectively legalize the expenditure and pay the money. Sir, it is against that principle that I speak and vote. Mr. CASSIDY-As the precedent of the Convention of 1846 has oeen referred to by the gentleman from Ontario [Mr. Folger], I would like to call his attention to the factMr. FOLGER-I will state to the gentleman that I have made no allusion to the Convention of 1846 in the remarks I have made. Mr. CASSIDY-Then the reference was made by some other gentleman. Chapter 267 of the Laws of 1847, is "An act for the payment of certain expenses of the State Convention to revise the Constitution." It provides for the payment of certain expenses which had not been provided for by the law of 1845, by which the Convention was called. In that there is a provision for the payment of the sum of $393 to the clergymen who officiated as chaplains; to Herman R. Howlett, for additional compensation as door-keeper, $253; and various other appropriations to doorkeepers and messengers. Mr. M. I. TOWNSEND - I did not mean to participate in this discussion, but I cannot sit still and have the vote which I may feel compelled to give upon this floor, on the question upon which my judgment has no doubt as to the propriety of my conduct,compared with corrupt legislation, charged to have occurred heretofore, and supposed possible to occur hereafter. It is charged that we cannot refer this resolution to these committees, because there is no warrant in law. Now sir, if that be an expenditure and if that expenditure shall be authorized by law, I cannot conceive what it matters to the Constitution of this State, or to the people of this State, whether the payment be made in pursuance.of a law enacted hereafter, or a law enacted heretofore. 153 We do not propose to pay any money. We do not ence in the matter of expenditure. It seems to propose to incur a liability that could be en- me, sir, that giving a clerk to one of these corn forced against this State if the State were mittees, and relieving the chairman of the oneran individual. Some members of this Convention ous duties devolving upon him, is not an unwise believe that the expenditure on this account is economy. I have supported this resolution to necessary to carry on its business. In my appre- afford such relief to the chairmen of these commitciation, if this money be not paid until it shall be tees, because otherwise, much of their time will paid according to law, it makes no difference be occupied by the mere clerical and mechanical whether it be paid under the law, by authority of work of the committee. The people of this State which this Convention is now assembled, or require from us the use of our brains, and not the by a law to be passed hereafter, if the pay- use of our hands. Sir, there, may be some nice ment be made in accordance with the forms metaphysical distinction, in reference to the of law. I would not vote for any motion power of passing this resolution. There is no which I deemed would set an example which inhibition against this Convention authorizing ought not to be followed. I believe it is neces- either of these committees appointing a clerk, but sary for the business of this Convention, that the want of power is in the appropriation of the some of the committees should have a clerk for money to pay the clerk, which this resolution does the proper discharge of their duties. The Com- not pretend to.provide for. Now, sir, we can mittee on Finance is a committee of detail that authorize the appointment of a clerk. We are not will have an immense business before it, and I prohibited from doing that. We have the discredo not believe that the business of that commit- tion and power to do it. The question of approtee will be properly done, however desirous the priation to pay the clerk is another question, gentlemen of that committee may be to discharge which we leave to the Legislature of the State. their duty, without the aid of a clerk. The Sir. this is a simple question of economy, of secugentleman from Ontario [Mr. Folger] says that ring for the investigations and work of the comother committees will follow the example. Cer- mittee the exclusive use of the intellect of its chairtainly no excuse could be offered for the man. I wish to relieve the Chairman from the committee upon which I have the honor to onerous burden of performing the clerical labor, be placed, for asking for a clerk. So, I think and I hope that the motion to refer the resolution it will be with nearly every committee ex- to the several committees interested, will prevail. cept those which have asked for clerks; but Mr. McDONALD-I have but a single suggeswhether that is so or not, I should like a tion to make. Two of the committees which are report from these committees as to the reasons proposed to be furnished with clerks, have why they should have clerical aid. I shall not been heard before the Convention through fear that I am doing a wrong to my constituents or their chairmen, and we are now, in my opinion, a wrong to the State if we employ clerks and quite as well prepared to decide this question as leave to the discretion of a future Legislature to we shall be at any future time. If we refer the decide whether the employment was proper and subject to three or four committees, then three necessary for the work of this Convention, and or four reports will be submitted for discussion, whether the person so employed should be paid and another day will be lost in debate. It has or not. I should feel that I had been just as con- been suggested that each day's debate is an exscientious in the discharge of my duty, and feel pense to the State. By taking the vote now we shall that I had acted with as high minded a view with save our time and save expense to the State. I, reference to the interests of this State if I had therefore, hope that the resolution will not be revoted to authorize this employment, to pay the ferred, that a direct vote will now be taken, and expense of which was a matter to be provided for the question finally decided. by a future Legislature, as if it had been provided Mr. GOULD —The gentleman from Onondaga for by the past; and, indeed, for certain reasons, I [Mr. Alvord], has stated a fact which it seems to think we may hope that the sanction of a future me ought to engage the serious attention of this Legislature will confer full as much honor upon Convention, and that is, of the three chairmen of the doings of this body as the sanction of the these committees who have spoken, only one has Legislature which has just dispersed. spoken in favor of the resolution. I want to Mr. ALVORD - At the risk of bringing to call the attention of the Convention to one fact their feet the chairmen of committees which that, the distinguished gentleman from Albany have been designated by the original resolution. [Mr. Harris], has expressly declared that he cares as needing clerks, I wish to say here, that so very little about this matter; so that the only far as my hearing teaches me, there is but one of authority upon which this expenditure is called those chairmen who has appeared upon this floor for is indifferent in reference to it. The chairin favor of having a clerk appointed, while there man of another of the committees has told us that is another who has spoken in opposition to it. there is no necessity whatever for such an apAnd if I recollect aright, in hearing the announce- pointment, so that we are not only going on to ment of the last vote, the chairmen of the other make these expenditures without any authority two committees named, voted in favor of a recon- whatever, but also without the existence of any sideration of the resolution, so that so far as the necessity for it. Gentlemen have spoken of the larecords speak, there are three chairmen opposed bors of the chairman of one of these committees as to the resolution, appointing clerks to committees, exceedingly onerous; but there is no evidence of and one chairman in favor of it. that fact before us. It seems to me that if we vote Mr. PAIG1 - There is a wise economy, and for the employment of these clerks we are voting an unwise economy; and there is the same differ- against evidence and against sound economy. 20 154 Now sir, before I take my seat I wish to express object to the reference. Let this go to the commy regret at a remark of the gentleman from Imittees; let them report upon it, and all will then Fulton [Mr. Smith]. I have no doubt of the be satisfied. purity of the motives of that gentleman. I have Mr. BELL —Mr. President, as I introduced the no doubt that he believes that what he said was resolution, providing that the daily sessions of this the truth; but what strikes me as dangerous, is Convention be opened by the services of clergymen, that he used the very words - the very language and as the subject has been frequently referred to of those men who have been spoiliators upon the this morning, I feel called upon to state, that at public treasury from generation to generation. the time I introduced that resolution, I was not There has not an attempt been made at any time aware of the provisions of the act for the assemto pass such a resolution through the Legislature bling of this body, il that regard; but I did it, (and gentlemen who have been in the Legislature believing it to be fit and proper that the sessions will bear me out in the assertion), but what of this body should be opened by prayer. The those who have opposed the expenditures act does not in terms provide for the payment, have been met with the statement that it but it is presumed that there will be an appropriwas a very small matter for the Empire State, ation to compensate these gentlemen who officiato too little a matter for them to interfere with for us daily. Thus much, I think I am called That is the uniform way in which these matters upon to say in that regard. I fully agree with have been spoken of, and gentlemen of not a the gentleman from Columbia [Mr. Gould]. in great deal of back bone, have been driven from regard to the strict construction of the law assemtheir opposition. They do not wish to be thought bling us in this capacity. I do not believe we of as poor or as mean - they do not wish to be should overstep those bounds, but that we should thought of as those who are putting themselves be governed, as near as possible, by the provisions forward and trying to reap a popularity, as of that act and I fully believe, as he has said, that favoring a mean economy, and hence they fail one of the leading motives of the people in voting to raise their voices in opposition. I always for this Convention, was that we might in some regret to hear remarks of that kind made, because way provide against the unlawful and uncalled I know what it leads to. The experience of the for expenditures of money by the Legislature. Legislature for the last twenty years, has shown The people are aware that from these small precisely what that line of argument leads to, and beginnings- these, what are called, small and it seems to me that it is high time that it stopped. insignificant appropriations, the State and the peoAs I had occasion to remark the other day, I know ple thereof, have become demoralized. The practhat the people voted in large numbers, or at least tice of the Legislature, in providing for attendvoted for the present Convention, in order that ants upon its sessions, does more to demoralize this looseness of legislation might be stopped. I that body than probably any other cause whatwish to call attention to a remark which was made ever, and it has become so common in the Legisby the gentleman from Albany [Mr. Harris], who lature assembling here, that they provide, really, commenced his speech, when last up, by referring more employees than they have members. These to certain expenditures which we have already employees frequently, if they are not already promade. We have been referred to the employ- fessed lobbyists, become so before the close of the ment of chaplains, for which there is no authority session. They not only lobby for increased comof law; and we have also been referred to the pensation and extra compensation for themselves, removal of these partitions for which there is no but in many cases they are engaged in all the authority of law; and I trust the Convention will outside lobby movements in the State. Thus it take warning by those precedents which have been is, that instead of having a Legislature assemestablished, not to establish any other precedent, bled to be conducted as provided by the Constituwhich shall furnish an avenue to a greater and | tion, we have a Legislature which has grown up more corrupt expenditure, because, sir, on the in evil practices to be a perfectly unmanageable next irregular expenditure that shall be demanded body, with more officers than members. I am of here, gentlemen will quote this very employ- the opinion, sir, that this whole matter can ment of clerks as a reason for it. There is no be disposed of in accordance with the law hope sir, of introducing a principle of economy into under which we are assembled, and also to the Convention, and no hope of setting an exam- promote the convenience of the different ple to the Legislature of an economical expendi- committees. I agree with the honorable gentle. ture of the public money, unless the foot is placed man from Onondaga [Mr. Alvord], that there is a down squarely and not taken up. It is an old surplus of door-keepers and employees who could principle, sir, sanctioned by the Scriptures, that be properly detailed to discharge the duties wicked men and seducers wax worse and worse; required by these various committees-so far, at that is the most terrible thing in being a wicked least, as keeping the rooms in order is concerned, man and seducer, because by the absolute opera- and taking care of their papers and other duties tion of Divine Providence they must wax worse of that kind, and I hope they may be employed and worse. The very fact of taking a wrong step for that purpose, instead of introducing other per. leads on by an irrepressible tendency to take sons in the form of clerks for these several cornother and deeper wrong steps. I trust, in view mittees. Let us keep within the bounds of the of all these things, the Convention will be cau. law, that we may answer the great expectations tious in taking any wrong steps in this direction. of the people in calling us here to revise and Mr. CORBETT-If the gentlemen who are amend the Constitution. opposing this resolution anticipate such a favora-. Mr. RATHBUN-I rise for the purpose of ble result from the committee, why do they making a single suggestion to the Convention. Aa 155 I understand it, the Convention have appointed a committee charged mainly with the duties of restricting tlh power of the Legislature; and, as I understand, that committee have already had under consideration, among the topics to which they propose to apply restriction in reference to the power of the Legislature to dispose of the public money, the very proposition which is now before the Convention-or they have considered a subject which would embrace this subject now under consideration For instance, they have already taken into consideration the propriety of introducing an amendment to the Constitution of this State, which will prohibit the Legislature from granting any money upon any individual claim which may be made to them for that purpose; so as to divest it entirely of all the power which it has heretofore exercised with regard to this great question of claims. Mr. W. C. BROWN-Mr. President, I rise to a question of order- that the gentleman is not speaking to the question which is under discussion. The PRESIDENT-The Chair has often called the attention of gentlemen to the necessity of remembering the rule in that respect. Mr. RATHBUN-If I am out of order, Mr. President, I hope to be pardoned. I was simply endeavoring to state the objections which it seems to me lie exactly in our way. We shall be called upon by and bye to vote on this very question, which will apply to this very vote we are now about to take. If we vote to expend this money, or in other words, to incur this debt, how can we, before we get through, apply a prohibitory clause upon the power of the Legislature to pay this precise debt? I ask gentlemen where they will stand then? Because they will be called upon to meet the question squarely. It seems to me, we should come to that question with clean hands, without any mistakes which will stand in the way of our voting as we feel we ought to vote, because we have made a blunder now. That is all I desire to say. In taking the step now proposed, we put a check and control upon our own action, when we come to vote upon the questions which will be submitted to the Convention by and bye, as to any restrictions upon the power of the Legislature, which will embrace this proposition. Mr. MERRITT -I oppose this reference, because it is unusual. If it is proper to be referred at all, it strikes me it should be referred to the Committee on Contingent Expenses. I, therefore, am in favor of that reference, and I wish also to protest against the imputation, of the introduction of clergymen here, being used as a precedent. It is well known to us all, I presume, that there is an association in this city, whose voluntary duty it is to provide the services of clergymen to any considerable number of people who really need the benefit of clergy. This law did not provide for that, but in the discharge of their duty, upon the invitation of this body, they very properly invited the clergy of the city to consider the subject. I presume, in the first instance, they considered whether we needed their services, and deciding that we did, they concluded to rotate and divide this duty among themselves, and it is not to be presumed that they come here and render their services with any expectation of compensation. The question was then put upon the motion of Mr. Van Campen as amended, and it was declared carried. Mr. GREELEY offered the following resolution: Resolved, That the Committee on Rules be instructed to consider the propriety of adopting the following additional rules, with such modifications as they may deem advisable: RULE 46. On and after the 8th day of July the Convention shall meet at 10 A. 31., unless it shall otherwise order, and no leave of absence, hereafter granted, shall extend beyond that day and hour. RULE 47. Unless the Convention shall otherwise direct, the first hour of each day's sitting shall be devoted to morning business, and at 11 A. M. the Convention shall proceed to the order of the day. RULE 48. Unless otherwise ordered by a vote of two-thirds of the members present, there shall be devoted to the consideration of the reports of the several committees, as follows:-Judiciary Committee, five days; Finance, Canals and Cities, each, five days; Right of Suffrage and Powers and Duties of the Legislature, each three days; other Standing Committees, consisting of seven members, each two days. RULE 49. When half the time allotted as above to the report of any committee, shall have been expended, debate on said report, in Committee of the Whole, shall cease, and the committee shall proceed to vote on every amendment to said report which shall have been or may then be proposed. RULE 50. When the Convention shall have voted upon all the amendments to any report which shall have been adopted in Committee of the Whole, any amendment which shall have been negatived in said committee, may be renewed. and a vote of the Convention demanded thereon. Which was referred to the Committee on Rules. Mr. KETCRAM offered the following resolution: Resolved, That the Committee on the Judiciary inquire into the propriety of limiting the jurisdiction of justices of the peace to $50, and increasing that of the county courts to $2,500, and prohibiting appeals to the Court of Appeals of any action originating in a justice's court, or in the county court, wherein the amount does not exceed $500. Authorizing county judges to hold courts in counties other than those in and for which they are elected, and requiring the adoption of uniform rules of practice in the county courts throughout the State, and prohibiting county judges from practicing in any of the courts of the State, during the continuance of their office. Which was referred to the Committee on the Judiciary. Mr. E. A. BROWN offered the following resolution: Resolved, That the Committee on the Judiciary be respectfully requested to inquire into the expe 156 diency of organizing the several courts of this CONV State substantially as follows: June 21 186TIO First. The court for the trial of impeachment tone be composed of the Lieutenant-Governor, the On motion of Mr. ARCHER, Senators, and the Judges of the Court of Appeals, Resolved, That there be printed 500 copies of substantially as provided in the existing Constitu- the Rules and Standing Committees together in tion.. pamphlet form for the use of the Convention. Second. A Court of Appeals to be composed Would respectfully recommend the printing of of nine judges, who shall be elected by the people five hundred copies of the Rules and of the of the whole State; the judges of the Court of Standing Committees, as provided in the foregoing Appeals in office, or who shall have been elected resolution, in addition to the usual number. when this Constitution shall go into operation, to And your committee would also recommend serve out the several terms for which they shall that an additional eight hundred copies of the list have been elected. The five additional judges to of committees, revised and corrected, be printed, be elected for such terms that the time of one and substituted on the files of this Convention for judge shall expire every two years, and the full Document No. 9, now on tile files. term of office of a judge of the Court of Appeals J. J. SEAVER, Chairman. shall be hereafter eighteen years. Which was agreed to. That snch Court of Appeals shall be divided into Mr. M. I TOWNSEND -I wish to know if in two or three subdivisions or sections, which shall the order of unfinished business, the consideration hold courts separately, with power to hear and of the question brought before the Convention by determine such causes as shall be allotted to each the gentleman from Westchester [Mr. Greeley] section of said court, in a manner to be provided may now be taken up. by law or by the rules of said Court. The PRESIDENT -It will come up properly, That the concurrence of at least three judges the Chair rules, under the head of resolutions. shall be necessary to make an authoritive decision. Mr. W. C. BROWN offered the following resoIn case of a difference of opinion in any case lution: between the judges of any such section of said Resolved. That the Constitution should contain court, then such cause may be re-argued before a provision in these words relating to the Supreme the full bench of all the judges. Provision may Court. also be made for the hearing of causes of great ~ 1. The Supreme Court is continued with genimportance or difficulty before the whole court, eral jurisdiction in law and equity. in a manner to be prescribed by law, or by rules ~ 2. The division of the State into eight judiof said court. cial districts shall remain as at present until Third. The Supreme Court shall be constituted changed pursuant hereto. substantially as at present, with power in the. 3. There shall continue to be four justices of Legislature to increase the number of judicial the Supreme Court for each judicial district, and districts, and an additional number of justices of as many more for districts containing the cities of such court, as may be required by the business of New York, Brooklyn or Buffalo, or a population the State. of over six hundred thousand, as are, or may be Fourth. County Courts substantially as now authorized by law. organized, with jurisdiction in civil actions, to an ~ 4. The justices shall be elected or appointed amount not exceeding $500 in amount. as hereinafter provided, and shall hold office for Fifth. Surrogates' courts to be constituted sub- life, or until they arrive at the age of sixty-five stantially as at present. But in all cases the years, or until resignation or removal. The justisurrogate shall be a separate officer from the ces in office at the time this Constitution takes efcounty judge, and be also authorized to discharge feet, shall hold by the above tenure. the duties usually performed by the justices of ~ 5. The Legislature may re-organize the judicial the Supreme Court at chambers. districts only at the first session after the adopWhich was referred to the Committee on the tion of this Constitution, and at the first session Judiciary. after the return of every enumeration under this Mr. T. W. DWIGHT offered the following reso- Constitution, or under the laws of the United lution: States. The districts shall be compact and bounReeolved, That so much of the twenty-second ded by county lines. They may at any such sesannual report of the New York Prison Associa- sion increase or diminish the number of districts, tion as contains the testimony of prison officers only one district in each session. No diminution and ex-prison officers, taken by a commission of of districts shall have the effect to remove a justhat association under a joint resolution of the tice from office. On the formation of an addition.Legislature, passed in the year 1866, together al district there shall be four additional justices. with the summary of such testimony prepared by ~ 6. Provision may be made by law for desigthe commission contained on pages 318 to 500, in- nating, from time to time, one of the justices in elusive, of such report, be referred to the Comn- each district to be the presiding justice, or chief mittee on State Prisons, etc. justice of the district. Any three or more may Which was referred to the Committee on State hold general terms; any one or more may hold Prisons. special terms and circuit courts, and preside in E Mr. SEAVER. from the Committee on Printing, courts of oyer and terminer. and perform such made the following report: other duties in the administration of justice as Your committee, to whom was referred the fol- the Legislature may prescribe. lowing resolution, to wit: ~ 7. The justices of the Supreme Court shall 157 severally receive at stated times, for their ser- of Erie, representing that for the last ten years, a vices, a compensation to be established by law, practice has prevailed in the Legislature, and in which shall not be diminished during their con- municipal corporations and many of the Boards of tinuance in office. They may be continued in Supervisors, of granting public funds to various office after arriving at the age of sixty-five years churches, colleges and institutions of a sectarian by special order of the Governor, and the concur- character; and they ask that provisions may be rence of three-fifths of all the Senators elected. inserted in the Constitution, prohibiting the Legis~ 8. They shall not hold any other office of lature from making any such grants of funds or public trust. All votes for either of them for property and also prohibiting municipal corporaany elective office, except one strictly judicial, tions and counties or towns from doing the same. given by the people or the Legislature, shall be I move that the petition be received and referred void. to the Committee on the Powers and Duties of the ~ 9. Any male citizen of the age of twenty-one Legislature. years, of good moral character, and who possesses The petition was referred to the Committee on the requisite qualifications of learning and ability, the Powers'and Duties of the Legislature. shall be entitled to admission to practice in all the Mr. RATHBUN presented a petition for unicourts of the State. The Legislature shall pro- versal suffrage as well for women as for men. vide for ascertaining such qualifications. Which was referred to the Committee on the ~ 10. Testimony in equity cases shall be taken Right of Suffrage. in like manner as in cases at law. Mr. C. E. PARKER presented a petition of ~ 11. Judges of the Court of Appeals and citizens of Tioga county, asking for female justices of the Supreme Court may be removed suffrage. by concurrent resolution of both houses of the Which was referred to the Committee on the Legislature, if two-thirds of each house concur Right of Suffrage. therein. All judicial officers except those men- Mr. CURTIS presented a petition signed by tioned in this section, and except justices and Mrs. Daniel Cady and 206 others, asking to have judges of inferior courts, not of record, may the word "male " stricken from the Constitution. be removed by the Senate, on the recommen- Which was referred to the Committee on the dation of the Governor; but no removal shall Right of Suffrage. be made by virtue of this section, unless Mr. LAPHAM presented a petition asking for the cause thereof be entered on the journals, female suffrage. nor unless the party complained of shall have Which was referred to the Committee on the been served with a copy of the complaint against Right of Suffrage. him, and shall have had an opportunity of being Mr. GRAVES-I present thirty-seven petitions: heard in his defense. On the question of removal, one from Brooklyn, three from Mount Morris, one the ayes and noes shall be entered on the journal. from Washingtonville, one from Troy, one from ~ 12. No judge or justice shall take part in the Lima, eight from New York city, three from decision of any appeal from a judgment, order or Buffalo, two from Skaneateles, one from Lockport, decree entered by his direction, or by direction of one from Mount Morris, one from Poughkeepsie, a court of which he was a member. one from Dutchess county, nine from Utica, ~ 13. The Supreme Court shall not, nor shall Oneida county, one from Fairfield, Herkimer any justice thereof, exercise any power of appoint- county, in all containing the signatures of two ment to public office, except that they may be thousand and forty persons, asking for equal authorized by law to appoint reporters. suffrage. Which was referred to the Committee on the The petitions were referred to the Committee Judiciary. on the Right of Suffrage. Mr. GOULD -In calling the order of business, Mr. STRATTON presented a communication the Chair, undoubtedly inadvertently, omitted to from H. B. Wilson on the alleged corruptions of call for the reports of Select Committees. the Legislature, and suggesting remedies thereThe PRESIDENT-The Chair did call for for. them in their proper order. Mr. STRATTON - Mr. President, from the Mr. GOULD-I did not hear the call of the peculiar and startling facts contained in the comChair, and I would like now to make a report. munication, I ask that it may be read. The PRESIDENT- If there is no objection, The SECRETARY then proceeded to read the the report of the Select Committee will be communication. During the reading, received. Mr. HARRIS moved that the further reading Objection being made, the report was not re- be dispensed with. ceived. Which was lost, and the reading of the comOn motion of Mr. ARCHER, the Convention munication was proceeded with to its conclusion. adjourned. Mr. STRATTON - I understand there is a proWEDNESD Jposition for a select committee to which this Y, UNE 26 1867. properly would be referred, which now lays upon The Convention met at 11 o'clock A. M. the table, and I ask, therefore, that this commuPrayer was offered by Rev. H. N. POHLMAN. nication be laid on the table until the formation The journal of yesterday was read by the of such committee. SECRETARY, no objection being made thereto, it Mr. BICKFORD -In relation to the extraordiwas declared approved. nary speech which has just been made by an indiMr. HARRIS - I present the petition of sundry vidual outside of this Convention, and not concitizens of the town of Williamsville, in the county nected with it in any way, I move that it be not 158 included in the stenographic report and published of the Constitution, with notes and references, be at the expense of the State. printed for the use of the Convention. The PRESIDENT - The communication for the Which was referred to the Committee on present, lies upon the table, and can only be acted Printing. upon by being first taken from the table. Mr. GERRY called up the resolution offered The PRESIDENT presented a communication by him yesterday, which the Secretary proceeded from the department of the Metropolitan Police, to read as follows: of the city of New York, in reply to a resolution Resolved, That the clerk of the Assembly be of the Convention. requested to furnish this Convention with a list The SECRETARY proceeded to read the com- of all the titles of bills introduced at the last munication as follows: session of the Assembly, relating to, or affecting CENTRAL DEPARTMENT OF THE METRO- the city of New York. POLITAN POLICE, 300 MULBERRY STREET Mr. McDONALD-I move that the resolution NE YORK, June 24, 186, be amended by inserting "passed" instead of To the Constitutional Convention: Mr. GERRY-My object in offering that resoGENTLEMEN: I am instructed by the Board of lution was not simply for the purpose of ascertainMetropolitan Police to inform you that the re- ing the number of bills affecting the city of New quired number of copies of the last report of the York, which have been passed, but more particuboard, has been transmitted to Luther Caldwell, larly for the information of this Convention, Esq., Secretary of the Convention, in compliance showing the number of applications which have with the resolution adopted the 21st of June, in- been made during the last year to the Legislature, stant. proposing either amendments to local laws affecting By order of the Board of Metropolitan Police. the city of New York, or for the furtherance of THOS. C. ACTON, President. private interests of individuals residing within The PRESIDENT presented a communication the city of New York. I have no objection to an from the Secretary of State in reply to a resolu- amendment which shall also require a statement tiou of the Convention, requesting information in of such bills as have been passed, but I desire for reference to the Indian tribes in this State. the information of this Convention, to know what The SECRETARY proceeded to read the cornm- bills have been presented, and which as I am munication. instructed, the clerk of the Assembly, by referMr. E. BROOKS moved that the further reading ence to his minutes, can readily procure and of the communication be dispensed with, and that furnish us. it be laid upon the table and printed. The question being put upon the amendment Mr. SPENCER -A portion of the information offered by Mr. McDonald, it was declared to be contained in that report, I suppose is contained in lost. the Manual, but there is another portion which I Mr. KRUM-I move to amend the resolution suppose is not. by adding thereto " and the title of bills relating Mr. E. BROOKS-I understand that this is a to corporations." full answer to the resolution adopted by the Con- Mr. GERRY - I accept that amendment. vention, and therefore, to save time, I made the The question was then put on the resolution motion. as amended, and it was declared adopted. The communication was ordered to be printed Mr. OPDYKE- I move to take from the table and referred to the Committee on Indian affairs. the resolution offered by me on Monday last, in Mr. GOULD from the select committee ap- reference to the appointment of a select compointed to prepare a copy of the Constitution, mittee. with comparative notes, etc., made the following The SECRETARY then proceeded to read the report: resolution, as follows: The select committee appointed to prepare a Resolved, That a select committee of five be copy of the Constitution of the State, with cornm- appointed to consider the practicability of suppresparative notes and references now sing official corruption by means of constitutional Report, That they have performed the duty provisions, with instructions to report to the Conassigned to them. A portion of the printing has, vention. been done, and the whole work will be laid upon The question was then put upon the resolution the tables of members as soon as the remainder of Mr. Opdyke, and it was declared adopted. can be printed. Mr. HAND offered the following resolution: Many gentlemen who have seen the printed Resolved, That the Committee on the Powers sheets, have expressed a desire that extra copies and Duties of the Legislature consider the expe. of it should be printed, in order that those gen- diency of adding the following section to article tlemen of learning and leisure, in various parts of fourth of the Constitution: the State, who are preparing to aid the Conven- 1. Every bill which shall have passed the tion with their advice and assistance, might be Senate and Assembly, and have been approved furnished with a copy thereof. Your committee by the Governor, as provided in the preceding concur with them in the opinion that the interests section, shall be referred to the Court of Appeals, of the State would be promoted by the printing or a quorum thereof, and by them be carefully of extra copies, and therefore offer the following reviewed. If, after such review, the court, or a resolution for the consideration of the Conven- majority of their whole number, shall find the tion. enactment in all its parts in accordance with the Resolved, That twice the usual number of copies provisions of this Constitution, it shall be indorsed 159 "Constitutional," and signed by the President of the court, and the constitutionality of said act shall never be called in question by any tribunal in the State. 2. For the performance of the duties indicated in these sections, the Court of Appeals shall hold a special session, commencing within two months after the opening of each regular session of the Legislature, and continue until the close of the legislative term, and as much longer as may be necessary for the careful performance of the duties herein indicated. If any bill committed to them for review shall be deemed by them unconstitutional, they shall vithin ten days return the same to the House where it originated, for reconsideration, carefully pointing out the portions of the act which they regard as in violation of the Constitution. If the Legislature choose to modify the same and, the Governor approve as before provided, it shall be once more submitted to the Court of Appeals for review. Should the Legislature adjourn, before the court shall have completed its reviews, any bill they may examine after said adjournment, and find in conflict with the provisions of the Constitution, it shall be placed in the hands of the Governor, and by him submitted to the Legislature for their consideration (on the first day of their session), to be disposed of as before provided. Which was referred to the Committee on the Powers and Duties of the Legislature. Mr. T. W. DWIGHT offered the following resolution: Resolved, That Committee No. 5, on the Governor, etc., be instructed to inquire into the expediency of making the following provision respecting the powers of the Governor. The Governor may approve any appropriation and disapprove any other appropriation in the same bill. In such case, he shall, in signing the bill, designate the appropriations disapproved, and shall return a copy of such appropriations, with his objections, to the House in which the bill shall have originated, and the same proceedings shall then be had as in the case of other bills disapproved by the Governor. Which was referred to the Committee on the Governor, etc. Mr. BECKWITH-I move to take up the resolution offered by me yesterday, which was laid upon the table. The SECRETARY than proceeded to read the resolution, as follows: Resolved, That the Auditor of the Canal Department be and he is hereby requested to furnish to this Convention the following information: 1. The original cost of the Champlain canal. 2. The cost of any and all enlargements, repairs and improvements thereof. 3. The tolls received in each fiscal year from 1846 to 1866, inclusive. 4. The cost of collection, superintendence and repairs thereof for each year during the time aforesaid. 5. The tons shipped on the Champlain canal each year during that time, stating the same separately from those of the Erie canal, so far as practicable. Mr. BECKWITHI-I move to amend the reso lution by striking out from "1846 to 1866 inclusive." The PRESIDENT-The amendment suggested will be made, no action having been had upon the resolution. Mr. BECKWITH-I move this resolution for the reason that I find in the Manual, which has been laid upon our tables, that the cost, expenses and to.ls of the Champlain canal, are stated in conjunction with those of the Erie canal. I would like to have them stated separately. Mr. MILLER - I shall very cheerfully vote for the resolution offered by the gentleman from Clinton [Mr. Beckwith]. I would like to have had it broader, so as to refer to all of the canals of the State; but I will not embarrass the resolution nor raise a discussion by offering an amendment at present. I believe, sir, that there will be no more important question come betore this Convention than the question relating to the reform in the management of our canals, and the reform in the organization of the Canal Department of the State. I think, sir, that there is no question to-day commanding so much of the attention and interest of the people of the State. I believe, that the resolution which was offered by the gentleman from Westchester [Mr. Greeley], a few days since, brought out some very important information which this Convention will do well to consider; some information that will be valuable when we come to discuss the proper organization of the Canal Department of the State. It is true, sir, that we learn nothing from the response to that resolution about the canals; we do not get the information that we desire; but we do, sir, obtain much information in relation to the Canal Department. We found that, as at present organized, it was a mysterious and complicated institution, that the most intelligent men of this Convention little understood; we found further, sir, that it was an institution that as at present organized consists of a number of co-ordinate equal officers, or equal bureaus without any responsible head. Now, sir, I suggest that this organization however much it may favor the discharge of the routine business in the department, is perfectly fatal to any just responsibility and accountability in the discharge and control of their great interests. Mr. M. I. TOWNSEND-I rise to a question of order, that the discussion of the gentleman occupying the floor is not pertinent to the consideration o: the question before the Convention. The PRESIDENT-The Chair hardly thinks the point of order well taken; the question is debatable. The gentleman will confine himself to the motion. Mr. MILLER- Mr. President, I understand that this motion is to call for information in reference to the canals of our State, and it is in that light that I am discussing it. But sir, in order to obtain this information we must go to the Canal Department of the State. Now, I notice that this resolution is directed to the Auditor of the Canal Department. I do not know but that this is the most proper direction; at all events I am in favor of piercing this Canal Department in every direction, in every board and bureau until we have obtained the information that we 160 need and desire here. I would say, Mr. Presi- said committee, as affording the basis of a constident, that the general ignorance, if I may tutional provision to be adopted by this Convenso speak, in relation to the organization of that tion. department, is not confined to this Convention; Which was referred to the Committee on the practical business men on the line of your Right of Suffrage. canals, and who are its patrons, are as much in Mr. A. F. ALLEN-I call for the consideration doubt as we are in reference to where the respon- of the resolution introduced by me on Monday, sibility lies. I noticed only a few days ago a calling for information. report of the proceedings of a meeting held at Troy, The SECRETARY then proceeded to read the in this State, to protest against the mismanagement resolution, as follows: of this Champlain canal, and all the speakers Resolved, That the Comptroller be requested to were agreed that there was gross and outrageous report to this Convention the amount of accrued mismanagement, but not one of them, at the interest, remaining unpaid belonging to the comtime, could tell where the responsibility and mon school fund. arising from money loaned, also, blame lay. They said that the superintend- upon bonds for land sold, and the cause why ent claimed it was not his fault, and the Canal annual interest is not paid; also, if in his judgCommissioner said it was not his. Some of them ment any of the bonds for money loaned, or bonds had visited the department in this city and for land sold, are insecurely invested, it so, what could find nobody that could take the responsi- amount, and that the amounts of each be reported bility here. I have understood that since separately. that meeting there has been another held, The question was then put on the resolution at which they had censured a number of of Mr. A. F. Allen and it was declared adopted. State officers. But, Mr. President, when you Mr. LARREMORE offered the following resodivide the responsibility-when you censure men lution: in gross-you have no responsibility left. You Resolved, That it be referred to the Committee must have an official head, and then he is respon- on Corporations, other than Municipal, to inquire sible not only for his own acts, but for the acts of into the expediency and necessity of inserting a his - subordinates. You must have somebody to clause in the Constitution, requiring the Legislawhom the people can look when there is ture to pass a general act, in pursuance of which, mismanagement and say " you are the man." gas companies may be incorporated. Now, sir, we have nobody of this class. It is Which was referred to the Committee on Corsome satisfaction when people are misgoverned porations other than Municipal. and abused to have somebody to blame, but in Mr. KINNEY offered the following resolution: this case, with the grossest mismanagement Resolved, That the Committee on Judiciary be acknowledged, it is nobody's fault. We have requested to inquire into the propriety of confera swarm of vultures feeding upon the vitals ing upon justices of the peace, concurrent jurisdicof the State and nobody to blame. I wish tion with coroners over the subject of inquests. to suggest to the able Committee on the Canals Which was referred to the Committee on the that the first question for them to examine is as Judiciary. to providing a remedy for the gross mismanagement Mr. SEYMOUR offered the following resolution of the canals of this State, and until that remedy and asked that it be referred to the Committee on is found, and the remedy is made certain and per- the Organization of the Legislature. manent, all other questions in relation to the canals Resolved, That the Committee on the Legislamust be postponed. Now, I suggest, Mr. Presi- ture be requested to inquire into the expediency dent, that this idea of having a responsible head of an organization of the Legislature by the Conto the Canal Department of this State is worthy stitution, so that there shall shall be a Senate of of consideration -. thirty-two members, to be elected-four from each The PRESIDENT-The Chair will respectfully of eight senatorial districts, into which this State inform the gentleman from Delaware [Mr. Miller], shall be divided-to hold their offices for four that he is taking a pretty wide range of debate. years, and after the first election, one Senator to Mr. MILLER-I am much obliged for the lib- be elected annually from each senatorial district eral interpretation the Chair has given. I have and that there shall be a House of Assembly, to said all that I wished to say. [Laughter.] be elected annually, to consist of 128 members, Mr. BECKWITH - I find upon looking into to be apportioned among, and elected from the the Manual which has been laid upon our table, several counties of the State, according to their that the matters for which I have inquired, are population, each county being entitled to at least separately stated as to all the canals except the one member, and that the compensation of the Erie and Champlain canals-as to those two members of the Legislature, be paid by annual Canals they are stated together, and not sepa- salary to be fixed by the Constitution. rately as in the case of the others. Which was referred to the Committee on the The question was then put upon the resolution Organization of the Legislature. of Mr. Beckwith, and it was declared adopted. Mr. GRAVES - As our national holiday is fast Mr. FRANCIS offered the following resolution: approaching, I have no doubt the members of Resolved, That the Committee on the Right of this Convention desire to remember it in some Suffrage, etc., consider the propriety of requiring form, and as the duties of the members increase the payment of a tax by every elector, as a condi- each day, to prevent any embarrassment in the tion of the exercise of the right of suffrage, and faithful discharge of their duty, I offer the followthat article three, section one of the Constitution ing resolution: of Pennsylvania, on this subject be referred to Resolved, That this Convention keep an open 161 session from Friday of this week until July 8th, to enable the several committees to pursue their labors, and that during said time the Convention will not meet daily at the Capitol, but the members of the several committees will meet and compare views, or examine separately the subjectmatter, submitted to them, and report to the Convention in Committee of the Whole at its session on Monday evening, July 8, 7i P. M., or as soon thereafter as consistent with their duty. Mr. GREELEY- The only objection I have to the adoption of that resolution is that the committees will not remain in session without the sessions of this body continue. They will simply adjourn. The PRESIDENT —The question giving rise to debate it will lie over under the rule. Mr. POND -I wish to call up the resolution offered by me in regard to the appointment of a committee to inquire into and report on the expediency of adjourning this Convention to Saratoga. The SECRETARY then proceeded to read the resolution as follows: Resolved, That a committee of five be apppointed by the Chair to inquire into and report upon the expediency of adjourning this Convention to Saratoga. Mr. PRESIDENT —The resolution having been tabled by a vote, the question is on taking it from the table. The question was then put on taking the resolution from the table, and it was declared carried. Mr. POND-This resolution, as I understood it, went over because it gave rise to debate, and was not laid on the table by a vote. But the subject being now properly before the Convention, I will proceed. This resolution was introduced by me with a view to the contingency contemplated by the framers of the act under which this Convention is assembled. There have been various questions presented to this Convention, in reference to which discussion has been had, to the effect that the Convention had no power over those subjects. But in regard to this, sir, the framers of this act under which we have assembled, clearly contem plated a contingency arising when it might be proper for the sessions of this Convention to be held at Saratoga, or elsewhere than in Albany. Now, sir, the hot season is close upon us, and there is, in my mind, not much doubt but that the contingency contemplated will arise; and, inasmuch as we are approaching the heated term, I think it would be proper that the subject should be examined by the committee, so that when the the contingency does arise, the facts may have been ascertained, and presented in an authoritative manner, to this Convention as to where is the proper place for holding its sessions outside of this city. I do not propose to go into the merits of the question on this resolution to appoint a committee. The appropriate time to discuss its merits will be if the committee is appointed, when the committee shall have examined the question and reported upon it. I think, however, it may be proper to say that, in my judgment, the convenience and health of the members will be promoted by a change, and by holding a session of the 21 Convention elsewhere than in Albany. For the purpose of information, without going into detail myself, I will merely refer delegates to the speeches of the members of the Legislature from Albany as to the condition of the building where the sessions of the Legislature are held: and if, as they claim, this chamber is not a fit place for the Assembly in the winter, it certainly cannot be a proper place for the sessions of a larger body during the heated term of the summer. Without, therefore, going into the merits of the question, I hope the committee will be appointed, that they may examine into the question and see whether it will not be proper to hold the sessions of this Convention at a place that will secure the safety of the constitutions of its members while they are getting up up a political Constitution for the State. Mr. STRATTON offered the following amendment: Strike out the word "five," and insert in place thereof "one from each judicial district." Mr. POND- I accept that amendment. Mr. GREELEY moved to lay the resolution upon the table. Which was lost. Mr. SILVESTER offered the following amendment: Add, "And after the Convention has been in session at Saratoga two weeks, of adjourning to Niagara Falls, and after the Convention has been in session at Niagara Falls for two weeks, of adjourning to Lebanon Springs." Mr. NELSON-I rise to a point of order, that the amendment offered by the gentleman from Columbia [Mr. Silvester] is not germane to the resolution, the resolution being for the appointment of a committee to consider the propriety of adjourning; the amendment proposes action for the Convention after they shall have reached Saratoga. The PRESIDENT- The point of order is well taken. Mr. SILVESTER-The Chair as I understand it decides my amendment to be out of order. It merely proposes an inquiry as to the expediency, as does the original resolution. The PRESIDENT —The original resolution is simply for the creation of a committee. Mr. SILVESTER —This is a proposition to amend by providing for an inquiry into the expediency of doing these things afterward. The PRESIDENT —It is a different subject matter altogether in the opinion of the Chair. Mr. GREELEY called for the yeas and nays upon the resolution. A sufficient number seconding the call, they were ordered. Mr. BICKFORD -It seems to me the proposition for the adjournment of this body to Saratoga is one which this Convention should not entertain for a moment. In my view it is wholly preposterous for the resolution to be en tertained at all. If the resolution has any definite object, it is not perfectly expressed in its present shape. It should specify, not merely the village of Saratoga, but should specify some place in Saratoga, some building, some hall or room where the sessions of this Convention could be held. It is not enough to provide for adjourning to Sara 162 toga without we name some place there. It is well known that the place which has been proposed for the sittings of this Convention is an antiquated opera houseMr. SEAVER —I rise to a point of order, that the question before the Convention is upon appointing a committee, and does not involve the merits of an adjournment at all. The PRESIDENT- The point of order is well taken; the gentleman from Jefferson [Mr. Bickford] will confine himself to the question of the expediency of raising a committee. Mr. BICKFORD -Well sir, I deem it to be in order, with all respect to the President, to state that there is no convenient place at Saratoga, as we all know, or a proper place for holding the meetings of this body. We have here every facility for doing the business of this Convention. Provisions have been made for the accommodation of the members of the Legislature, and the same accomodations are afforded to us. It is here a cool fand shady place-everything to our hand and ready for use, and if we go to Saratoga, it is preposterous to think that we shall find either the accommodations or the facilities for doing business that we have here. The people do not expect that we have come here for our own. pleasure, or for our own convenience-but it is to attend to the business of this Convention, -to attend to public business, and it is perfectly obvious that we can do better here tlan in any other place. Mr. KETCHAM-I rise to a point of order, that the gentleman's remarks are not germane to the subject. He is talking about what would be a very appropriate subject if the inquiry were before the Convention. The PRESIDENT-The Chair has already informed the gentleman from Jefferson [Mr. Bickford], that he must confine his remarks to the expediency of raising this committee. Mr. BICKFORD - If it would ever be proper to raise this committee, I think it is not proper to raise it now. It is a time of general health in Albany; there is no plague here [laughter] and no epidemic whatever, or anything of that kind. It might be very proper in case any disease were prevalent here that we should adjourn to some other place, but at the present time I think this is the proper place to stay; and, therefore, I hope the proposition will not be entertained at all. Mr. DEVELIN offered the following amendment: Insert after the word " Saratoga" the words " or the city of New York." Which was adopted. Mr. C. L. ALLEN - I move to postpone the further consideration of this resolution until the 9th day of July next. We shall then be in a better situation to consider the propriety of adopting this resolution than we are now. Mr. POND-It strikes me, sir, if this committee is to be appointed at all, it should be appointed nowThe PRESIDENT-This motion is not debatable upon the main question, this being a motion to fix the time. Mr. POND-I suppose that I am speaking to that point. I say that if the committee is appointed at all, it should be now, and not at the future time suggested. In reply to the honorable gentleman from Jefferson [Mr. Bickford] - Mr. MERRITT-I rise to a point of order that it is not in order to debate a motion to post pone. The PRESIDENT - A motion to postpone, the Chair holds, is debatable, and this is a motion to postpone to a day certain; the motion to postpone is debatable. if the debate does not involve tho main question. Mr. POND-Upon that question the gentleman from Jefferson [Mr. Bickford] has suggested, that there is no epidemic here, and we ought to wait until that comes. I think myself, sir, that wisdom requires that the committee should be appointed, and should ascertain where, if anywhere, out of this city, a session of' this Convention may be held, before the exigency is upon us; because, in all probability, if this Convention holds a session elsewhere than here, they will want to adjourn by the time named by the gentleman from Washington [Mr C. L. Allen], to which he would have this question postponed. If this committee is appointed, they may be able to report a place to which the Convention may wish to adjourn by that time; and if there is any necessity for adjourning at all, that necessity will be apparent by the 9th day of July. Indeed, it seems to me, it would be proper for this committee to be appointed, and they might make a report before the adjournment over for the 4th of July, and then, if there is to be a session held elsewhere, there will be sufficient time in the interim between this time and the 8th or 9th of July, for the removal of everything that is necessary from this place to the place to which this Convention may see fit to adjourn. Therefore, it seems to me, to be the proper time to appoint the committee asked for in the original resolution; to which I supposed the amendment of my friend from New York [Mr. Develin], was not germane, according to the decision of the Chair upon a former amendment. But no matter for that. I don't tliink it will hurt this Convention to receive a report from the committee in reference to New York city as well as Saratoga Springs, and let the Convention say which one of the two places, if either, they will adjourn to. Mr. ME RRITT - It seems to me that the whole subject is pretty well understood; and in order to test the sense of the Convention, I move that it be indefinitely postponed, and on that I call the ayes and noes. A sufficient number seconding the call, the ayes and noes were ordered. The question was then put on the motion of Mr. Merritt, and it was carried by the following vote: Ayes- Messrs. A. F. Allen, C. L. Allen, N. M. Allen, Andrews, Armstrong, Barker, Barnard, Barto, Beals, Bell, Bergen, Bickford. Carpenter, Case, Cassidy, Church, Conger, Cooke, Curtls C. C. Dwight, T. W. Dwight, Ferry, Fowler, Fuller, Garvin, Goodrich, Gould, Grant, Greeley, Gross, Hadley, Hammond, Hand. Hardenburgh, Harris, Hitchcock, HIouston, Hutchins, Kinney, Krum, Lapham. Lee, Ludington, McDonald, Merrill, Merritt, Merwin, Miller, Murphy, Paige, A. J. Parker, C. E. Parker, President, Prin 163 die, Rathbun, Reynolds, Root, Roy, L. W. Russell, shall lose less of the valuable time which ought Schoonmaker, Schumaker, Seaver, Silvester, Spen- to be employed here, than in any other method cer, Stratton, Strong, Van Campen, Van Cott, proposed. We have, it is true, but very little to Wales, Wickham-70. do in our daily meetings here; but we have a Nays —Messrs. Alvord, Archer, Axtell. Beadle, vast work to do in the committees; and atBeckwith, Bowen, E. Brooks, E. P. Brooks, J. tempting to get around in any way the idea of an Brooks, Burrill, Champlain, Cheritree, Chesebro, adjournment of the Convention, and keeping Clark, Clinton, Cochran, Colallan, Corbett, Daly, together the committees will be a failure. The Develin, Duganne, Ely, Endress, Field, Flagler, committees will disperse the moment the ConvenFolger, Francis, Frank, Fullerton. Gerry, Graves, tion adjourns, either in terms or substantially. as Hatch, Hitchman, Huntington, Ketcham, Landon, contemplated by the amendment of my friend Larremore, A. [H. Lawrence, M. H. Lawrence, from Herkimer [Mr. Graves]. I hope this propoLivingston, Loew, Lowrey, Mattice, Monell, Mor- sition, either of the amendment or of the original ris, Nelson, Opdyke. Pond, Prosser, Robertson, resolution, will not prevail. A. D. Russell, Seymour, Sheldon, Tappen, M. Mr. MURPHY-I am opposed to this amendI. Townsend, S. Townsend, Tucker, Veeder, ment for the reason that I would not do indirectly Verplanck, Williams, Young-61. that which I would not do directly. I do not exactMr. GREELEY moved that the Convention ly understand,sir, what is meant by the term "open do now adjourn. session " in this resolution, unless it means that Which was lost. there are to be no regular sessions of this body Mr. VAN CAMPEN called up the resolution during the interval proposed. As I understand offered by him yesterday in relation to an adjourn- the resolution itself, this body is not to meet, and ment. there is to be no session of this Convention, though The SECRETARY proceeded to read the reso- the resolution says there shall be an open session lution as follows: in which the committees shall meet. If it be inResolved, That when this House of Delegates tended to get around the act which says that this adjourn on Friday next, they adjourn to meet on body shall not take a recess for longer than three Tuesday, July 9th, at 11 o'clock A. M. days, let us do it in an open and manly way. Let Mr. GRAVES-I wish to call up the resolution us adjourn over from Friday until Monday, as offered by me this morning, which I now offer proposed by the original resolution. Certainly we as an amendment. are not in session when the committees are merely The SECRETARY proceeded to read the reso- meeting; and there is no such thing as an open lution as offered by Mr. Graves as follows: session. An open session of this Convention, I Resolved, That this Convention keep an open take it, is an open meeting of this Convention session from Friday of this week until July 8th, to daily, as we are meeting now. I shall vote enable the committees to pursue their labors, and against this amendment for these reasons, reservthat during said time the Convention will not ing to myself the right to vote upon the original assemble daily at the Capital, but the members of resolutionts I shall deem proper whenever it may the respective Committees will meet and compare come up. views, or examine separately the subject-matter Mr. AXTELL offered the following amendment: submitted to them, and report to this Convention That when this House of Delegates adjourns on in Committee of the Whole, at its session on Mon- Wednesday, the 3d of July, it shall adjourn to day evening, July 8th, at 71 o'clock, P. M., or as meet at the usual hour on Friday, the 5th of July. soon thereafter as consistent with their duties. Which was lost. Mr. ALVORD-Mr. President: my experience Mr. ALVORD offered the following amendin the past has been, that an adjournment, either ment: in terms, or so understood to be in fact,. results in That this Convention adjourn at 11l A. M. on a breaking up of the entire business of a legisla- Wednesday next until Monday evening, the 8th tive body. If we come to the conclusion to adopt day of July next, at half-past 7 o'clock P. M. the original resolution, it will adjourn the entire Mr. VAN CAMPEN - The members from the business of this Convention from Friday evening extreme part of the State cannot get here by until the succeeding 9th of July. If we merely Mondayevening at half past 7 o'clock. If I start adopt the anmendment offered here by the gentle- on Monday, it requires from my place more than man from Herkimer [Mr. Graves], it results in twenty-four hours to get here, and I cannot, by the same thing. Unless we come here together any possibility, get here at the hour named in the and meet in our daily sessions, and go through resolution. the ordinary forms, we shall, in fact and in Mr. ALVO#D.-I have no particular objection truth, keep outside of doing anything during the to saying Tuesday at 11 o'clock A. M. entire of this interregnum. It suggests itself to Mr. RATHBUN.-I think that is no reason me, as the best thing to do under the circum- why we should not adjourn until Monday evening. stances, that we should hold our usual sessions The members who cannot get here by Monday during this whole week and meet again on Mon- afternoon will be able to reach here by the morning day and Tuesday, then adjourn on Wednesday, at of the next day. I understand the objection as early an hour as gentlemen please, over until to this amendment is that members cannot the next Monday. We shall lose no time in this reach here, some of them by half-past seven in the way, and we shall be doing efficient work, labor- evening. It is perfectly understood, I suppose, ing in the direction we ought to do, between the that when this Convention meets on Monday evenpresent time and the day of adjourning, just ing after the members return, that it meets in previous to the 4th of July, and in that way point of fact, merely to adjourn over until the 164 usual hour on the next day. And in the mean cheerfulness withdraw my amendment, because I time those delegates who cannot reach here in the have not offered it with any desire to evade the evening can easily be here tie next morning, if provision of the enactment under which we act. they desire. It seems to me that that is no good If it is the intention of members to go home, and reason for extending it beyond Monday even- not to continue in the discharge of their duties as ing. members of these committees, I shall certainly Mr. M. I. TOWNSEND-I understand from withdraw my amendment. several gentlemen upon the floor, that there are a The PRESIDENT- The Chair does not quite portion of the members of the Convention who understand the gentleman from Herkimer [Mr. have been unable during the adjournments taken Graves]. Does the gentleman withdraw his by the Convention to return to their homes, from amendment? the fact that their residences are so situated that Mr. GRAVES -Yes, sir; I withdraw it. it was impossible to reach them and return dur- Mr. ALVORD - I would like to ask a question ing the time for which we have adjourned Iam of the Chair. The gentleman from Herkimer so situated myself that the adjournments are a having withdrawn his amendment to the original matter of no importance; but if gentlemen are sit- resolution, does the Chair decide that that takes uated as I have described, and really desire an ad- my amendment also with it? journment of this House, I am prepared to meet it The PRESIDENT —No, sir; the Chair makes for one, and vote in favor of an adjournment so as to no such decision. enable them to return to their homes fairly, and Mr. OPDYKE-I understand that the amendfairly come back to their duties in the Convention. ment of the gentleman from Onondaga [Mr. A1 -I am unwilling to adopt the course which vord], is the one now before the Convention, as an the amendment before the House suggests. I amendment to the original resolution. would not do by any indirection, what I would The PRESIDENT-The Chair rules that the be perfectly willing to do directly. I would not amendment of the gentleman from Onondaga is be willing to place myself upon the records of the pending question. this House as voting for a proposition such as the Mr. OPDYKE-I wish to state very briefly my amendment to the resolution now contemplates. reasons for voting against this amendment and 1 am entirely willing, and I think I owe it to in favor of the original proposition. The original my associates in this Convention to vote for a res- resolution proposes an adjournment of more olution, which, if it be fairly adopted, shall carry the than three days, consequently, it stops the pay adjournment beyond the three days. We all know of the members, and it would cost the State that the effect will be to deprive us of our per di- nothing. The time of the members will be devotem during that time, but I am willing to vote for ed at home to qualifying themselves for the the resolution, because an adjournment for three better performance of their duties here, and I days is not sufficient to enable a portion of the have no doubt their time will be usefully members of this house to return to their homes, employed to the State. In the second place, visit, and come back to the discharge of their du- its effect will be-after the vote which has just ties. been taken, deciding that we shall remain in this Mr. GREELEY-The amendment which is place-to relieve us for some eight or ten days of proposed by the gentleman from Onondaga [Mr. the heated term in this city, and to throw us Alvord], will give members more than four days over further into the Autumn, when the weather if they leave here, say, at noon on Wednesday, will be more pleasant, and we shall be more capaand do not return until the next Tuesday morn- ble of performing our duty. I think for these ing. There will be really more than six days, reasons we should adopt the longer vacation, therefore, taken out of the time of this Conven- as proposed by the original resolution. tion, and I pray members to consider whether we The PRESIDENT announced the question to be can lose as much time as that. There cannot be on the amendment offered by Mr. Alvord. more than six members who will require more Mr. ALVORD- I desire the Convention to than twenty-four hours to go to their homes, and understand that my original proposition is the one this will give them at least four days at home; I wish to have acted upon, that is, that the Conand I entreat members who desire that this Con- vention adjourn from Wednesday at 11 A. M. vention will do some work, to stand by this until the succeeding Monday at 7l P. M. amendment of the gentleman from Onondaga [Mr. Mr. LUDINGTON -Mr. President, I have Alvord], which will give to members six days, steadily voted against all the long adjournments lacking about a half an hour, and surely that will we have had since our meeting, but I think it is be sufficient time. 5 highly proper that we should adjourn over our Mr. GRAVES-I offered the amendment to national holiday, and I cannot vote for the amendthe resolution, on the suggestion of some of the ment of the honorable gentlemen from Onondaga members of this body, that there were committee- [Mr. Alvord], for the reason that if it prevails it men, who desired, some of them, to remain here, will compel myself and some other members of and some who desired to go home, and there work the Convention, who do not wish to stay here, to in the discharge of their duties; as a member of travel on the 4th, in order to reach our homes. one of the committees, I intended to take that I am not particular with regard to the time, but I course myself. But if the members of this Con- cannot vote for an amendment which will necessivention desire to leave here, and to abandon tate me to devote the whole of the national holientirely their duties while absent, celebrating the day in traveling, in order to reach my home. 4th of July, from this time, until the meeting Mr. SEAVER offered the following amendment: hour shall arrive, then, certainly, I will with great That this Convention adjourn at 11 o'clock, 165 A. M., on Friday, next, until Tuesday. July 9th, at brate the 4th of July, when very few members 11 o'clock, A. i. of this Convention can get to their homes in time Mr. SEAVER-I offer this amendment for to celebrate the event. I hope, therefore, that the purpose of allowing members who reside in the Convention will reconsider the last vote, and remote sections of the State to go to their homes. will adjourn in a manly, straightforward manner, There are men here who cannot by any possible return to their homes, celebrate the anniversary, mode of conveyance reach their homes and return and then return to do the work that is intrusted within the time prescribed by the amendment of to them. the gentleman from Olondaga [Mr. Alvord]. I Mr. RATIHBUN-I do not understand that think this will commend itself to all members of that adjournment saves the per diem to members. the Convention. [ understand tlhat an adjournment from WednesThe question was put on the amendment of day to Monday embraces four full days, and that Mr. Seaver. and it was declared to be lost. the per diem, as a matter of course, will be lost Mr. HAND offered the following amendment: to members. It seems to me that the gentleman That the Convention adjourn on Tuesday next. [Mr. Conger] has made a mistake. the 2d day of July, at 11i o'clock A. M., until Mr. CONGER-The 4th of July is a dies Mondsy, July 8th, at 7. P.. non, and of course is not to be counted in the The question was put on the proposed amend- adjournment. If we adjourn on Wednesday, we ment. and it was declared lost will then have Friday, Saturday and Monday, Mr. BICKFORD-I do hope that we have which will be but three days' adjournment to be passed thle day of these long adjournments. counted. This proposition is that the Convention shall Mr. RATHBUN-I doubt very much whether adjourn from the day before the 4th of July tile gentleman is right in reference to that proviuntil the following Monday. I do not think it is sion. By the law, delegates are entitled to a per necessary we should adjourn for any longer time diem compensation for every day; but if the adthan until the Friday following. I do desire journment exceeds three days-it does not say legthat this Convention should get at their work, islative days-they receive no compensation for the and that the committees perfect their labors qnd time. Sunday is equally dies non as well as the 4th bring their reports before this body at as early a of July, and yet we are paid for Sunday and if we day as possible. It is utterly impossible to get remain here, we will be paid for the 4th of July, the committees to act unless tile Convention though we may not be in session. By anadjournshall continue in session. I, therefore, hope we ment from Wednesday until Monday we go over shall not adjourn from Wednesday until Monday. tile three days, and of course it would exclude Tlhe question was then put on the amendment payment. offered by Mr. Alvord, and it was declared adopted. Mr. McDONALD-I offer an amendment, simply The question was then announced on the reso- with the view of allowing every person to get lution of Mr. Van Campen, as amended on the home to be present at the celebration of the 4th motion of Mr. Alvord. of July, and to return in time to attend the sesMr. CONGER- I hope that this resolution sions of the Convention. will not prevail. I think the Convention owes The SECRETARY proceeded to read the something to its own sense of dignity and pro- amendment, as follows: priety. We have had three recesses under Resolved, That this Convention, when it adjourns the law which has saved the per diem allow- on Tuesday, July 2d, it adjourns to Tuesday, July ance of every member of the Convention, 9th, at 11 o'clock. and of the clerks and officers. The object of The question was then put on the amendment the law was two-fold: to insure the Con- of Mr. McDonald, and it was declared lost. vention attending to its business so as to pre- The question then recurred on the original sent a Constitution to the people at an early day resolution of Mr. Van Campen as amended, on the for its approval, by providing that in case of a motion of Mr. Alvord, and it was declared adopted. recess of more than three days. the per diem Mr. C. C. DWIGHT offered the following resoshould be forfeited, and to give the members of lution: the Convention an opportunity to adjourn when Resolved, That the Standing Committee on the there was a necessity, and, at the same time, Right of Suffrage be instructed to inquire as to save the amount of that per diem to the general the expediency of providing by constitutional fund appropriated. Now, it seems to me, that amendment, as follows, viz.: if, with a view of adjourning to celebrate the That the Legislature, at its first session after national anniversary, we virtually say to the peo- the adoption of this Constitution, shall provide by ple that we will adjourn so as to save our per law. diem for three days, we will bring upon ourselves a 1. For an accurate enumeration to be made of great deal of reprobation-I will not say contempt. all citizen females in this State above the age of 21 The recesses that we have already taken under years. the act has cost the State some $10,000, which 2. For an election to be held as soon as practihas had to come out of this appropriation. Each cable after the completion of such enumeration, day's session costs, the State $960 for the mem- at which election only citizen females above the bers and probably from $75 to $100 in addition age of 21 years shall be entitled to vote, upon the for the officers of the Convention. Now we cannot, question "shall the right of suffrage be extended with any sort of consistency, it seems to me, say to females " Yes or no. And that if the numa that we will adjourn from Wednesday morning at her of votes in the affirmative, cast at such elechalf-past eleven o'clock, and go home and cele- tion, shall be a majority of the whole number of 166 citizen females shown by the enumeration afore- called for by the original resolution offered said, then, and from that time forth, the right of by the gentleman from Westchester [Mr. suffrage shall be secure to all citizen females Greeley], and in the form asked for by that of this State, above the age of 21 years. gentleman. There can be no difficulty in directing Which was referred to the Committee on the this inquiry to the Auditor of the Canal DepartRight of Suffrage. ment, for however much we might have been in Mr. M. I. TOWNSEND-I call up for con- doubt at the commencement of this discussion sideration the resolution offered by the gentleman upon this subject as to what officer or officers were from Westchester [Mr. Greeley], to return the possessed of the informatinn which we desire, the communication of the Commissioners of the Canal debate that has been had has brought out the fact Fund to that committee. that, as the law now stands, the Auditor of the The SECRETARY proceeded to read the reso- Canal Department is in possession of all the lution as follows: information which we seek. Resolved, That the report of the Commissioners Mr. GREELEY-In order to save time and of the Canal Fund, made to the Convention, on debate, I accept the substitute proposed by the the 19th inst., be respectfully returned to them, gentleman [Mr. M. I. Townsend]. with the request that the information sought in Mr. M. I. TOWNSEND-I am obliged to the the resolution of 11th inst. be communicated to gentleman from Westchester [Mr. Greeley], for the Convention at as early a day as possible. his suggestion, but I desire to pursue the remarks Mr. M. I. TOWNSEND-I now offer the follow- I was making, not for the interest of that gentleing substitute for the motion of the gentleman man merely, but because there are other gentlefrom Westchester [Mr. Greeley]. men upon this floor who may be called upon to The SECRETARY proceeded to read the vote upon this subject, and for that reason I will substitute, as follows: continue, I trust, without making myself burdenResolved, That the Auditor of the Canal De- some to the Convention. By the statutes which partment be requested to prepare and communi- have been referred to, the Auditor of the Canal cate to this Convention a tabular statement, show- Department has been given control over the ing: records in his possession. He can furnish us with 1. The original cost of the several canals of this the information. I desire to pass this resolution State, including that of any enlargement or ex- without the amendment offered by the gentleman tension thereof. from Richmond [Mr. E. Brooks], and adopted by 2. The aggregate cost of each canal as afore- the Convention, for this reason: certain members said, including superintendence, repairs and legal upon this floor, and I include myself among the interest on the cost of construction, up to the number, would like to see this matter in a tabular close of the last fiscal year. statement, where it is all together and all digested. 3. The aggregate receipts or income from each If the information is already communicated canal, computed in like manner, to this body, if it is already in print, or if it is 4. The net cost or profit of each canal up to already executed and ready to send here, it canthe close of the last fiscal year. not impose any considerable labor upon the 5. The annual receipts or income of the State Auditor of the Canal Department to write it from each canal, with the annual cost of super- again and let us have it here in a shape that there intendence and repairs, respectively, of such can be no cavil about. I am particularly desicanals up to the close of the last fiscal year. rous because there has been much said about the 6. Also a table which will show with how much subject of the canals, and I am unable to tell, in each so called lateral canal should be credited for the present state of my information, whether it is its contributions to the revenues which in the correctly said or not. I think if we get this inyearly official tables and reports are credited to formation we shall not be laboring under the diffithe Erie canal. culty which one gentleman seemed to labor under Mr. M. I. TOWNSEND -The resolution which this morning, who said that it was a real grievhas just been read I offer as a substitute for the ance to the people of this State that the members pending resolution of the gentleman from West- of this body did not understand canal matchester [Mr. Greeley], as amended upon the sug-. ters; and really we ought to understand them, gestion of the gentleman from Rockland [Mr. Con- and relieve the people of this State from the ger], that the communication of the Commission- grievance. era of the Canal Fund be returned to them with a Mr. HATCH-I offer an additional amendment. request that they furnish the information called Mr. FULLER -I rise to a point of order. for at as early a day as possible. The proposed The gentlemen from Westchester [Mr. Greeley], substitute is the original resolution offered by the accepted the substitute of the gentleman from gentleman from Westchester [Mr. Greeley], with Rensselaer [Mr. M. I. Townsend]. the addition of the amendment offered by the Mr. GREELEY- I accepted it to save the time gentleman from Ontario [Mr. Folger], and accept- of the Convention. ed by the mover; so that the proposition now The SECRETARY proceeded to read the stands as it was originally before the Convention, amendment offered by Mr. Hatch as follows: before it was amended upon the suggestion of the Resolved, That the Auditor qf the Canal Departgentleman from Richmond [Mr. E. Brooks], which ment be requested to communicate to this Conamendment provided in substance that the infor-. vention, the amount of revenues of the Erie canal mation called for should be furnished unless it which has been appropriated for construction and had been otherwise communicated. Sir, I desire maintenance of lateral canals, and also the amount to be possessed of precisely the information of decrease in the revenues of the Erie canal, an 167 nually and in the aggregate, caused by the diversion of its business by either of tie lateral canals with the interest thereon, to the close of the fiscal year. Mr. GREELEY-I accept the amendment. Mr. E. BROOKS-I am very glad that the resolution originally introduced by the gentleman from Westchester [Mr. Greeley] has assumed the form it has. It was by my motion that the resolution was addressed to the Auditor of tile Canal Department. The original mover of tie resolution [Mr. Greeley] insisted that it should be addressed to the Comptroller. On the motion of tile gentleman from Orleans [Mr. Church], my amendm-nt was amended so as to call for the information upon tile Commissioners of the Canal Fund, Now, sir, in vindication of my original motion. which has been the subject of incidental debate for some five days, I wish to say a few words, and especially in reply to the gentleman from Ronkland [Mr. Conger]. Sir, I maintained this, and I re-affirm it now, that, by law, the Auditor of tile Canal Department is the only proper person to call upon for information in regard to the administration of the canals; that by law of the State he is the secretary of the Canal Board and of the Commissioners of' the Canal Fund; that by law, lie is placed in custody of the entire official and unofficial papers of the two Canal Boards; that by law, all the powers oriinlally residing in the Comptroller of the State, so far as respects the canals, are vested in lim; and that by law, also, the Commissionersof the Canal Ftnd and the Canal Board are obliged to report to the Auditor of the Canal Department; and further. that by law, tihe Auditor of tile Canal Department is obliged to rep rt to the Legislature as a State officer, and to make up and prepare and give the only itnformation which can possibly or properly be presented in regard to the canals to tie Legislature of this State. I desire, in vindication of that which ias been criticised on this floor to read a brief section from the law itself; which my friend fiom Rockland [Mr. Conger] says has not been repealed. It says: " The accounts of receipts and payment on account of the canals, and of tile canal fund and debt, heretofore kept by the Commissioners of th Canal Fund, shall, on and after the first day of October next, be kept by the Auditor." It also says: "On and after the first day of January next, the Auditor of the Canal Department, in addition to his present powers and duties, shall be a member of the Contracting Board, created by chapter three hundred and twenty-nine of the Laws of eighteen hundred and fifty-four, in the place and stead of the Comptroller, and be invested with all the powers, and perform all the duties, and be subject to all the responsibilities now conferred by law upon the Comptroller as a member of such Contracting Board, and from thenceforward such Contracting Board shall consist of the Canal Commissioners, the Auditor of the Canal Department and the State Engineer and Surveyor." And, finally, to meet the second proposition which was made by the gentleman fromi Rockland [Mr. Conger] in reply to the gentleman from Ulster [Mr. Schoonmaker], it says: " The annual report and statement required by the fourteenth section of the act, chapter one hundred and sixty-two, of the Laws of eighteen hundred and forty-eight, to be made by the Auditor to the Commissioners of the Canal Fund, -hall hereafter be made to the Legislature, and shall embrace all the particulars heretofore required in the annual report of the Commissioners of the Canal Fund." Sir, enough in vindication of the original motion I made to the Convention. Now. let me say in regard to time resolution which has been moved by the gentleman from Rensselaer [Mr M. I. Townsend], that if he will examine the second pamphlet which has been laid before us, he will, with very little labor-hardly five minutes-find the information given in the general and in the detail in regard to every canal in this State, its cost, the original expense of conducting it from its original working and establishment, until the present time. And, as I have said upon more than one occasion, we are imposing an herculean task upon the officers of this Convention, and upon the State officers, in compelling them to look up information winch lies upon our table, if we will only take the trouble to read it. Mr. PROSSER offered the following amendment: Resolved, That in making up the accounts ofthe separate canals, the interest upon the cost, and ppon the receipts and expenses, up to the close of tlie last fiscal year, shall be computed at the rate of five per cent compounded annually. Mr. GREETLE'Y-I accept the amendment. Mr. HATCH —It seems to me that the Secretary has omitted to read a resolution, which I introduced the other day, of inquiry, which was added to the resolution of tile gentleman from Westchester [Mr. Greeley]. I will offer it now as a new amendment. Tile SECIRETARY proceeded to read the proposed amendment of Mr. Hatch, as follows: 7. And also the amount of outstanding canal debt, arid when due, and when the same would be paid, assuming, as a basis of calculation for lihe future revenues of the toll receipts, the revenue from the same source for the last seven years. Mr. GREELEY - I accept the amendment, but [ trust that the Auditor will not be detained by these complicated calculations so long as to fail to give us the information we desire. Mr. CONGER —I regret extremely sir, that the remarks I made the other day in regard to the proper functions of the Commissioners of the Canal Fund should have been so construed as to make it appear that the Auditor had no finctions whatever under the existing laws. It is useless at this time to refer to that series of changes in the laws passed by the Legislature, which, originating in the dethronement of the Commissioners of the Canal Fund, forced anI enlargement policy on the State, and eventuated in the passage of the nine million law of 1851. It is a matter of historic record, wnich is not necessary to be introduced here at this time, more than for this allusion, that the dethronement at that time, undertaken under the law of 1848, by which the chief clerk of a department was made to supersede in functions the 168.members of that department, carried with it all the necessary consequences of an attempt, if not to violate the Constitution, at least, to change its fair purport and meaning. Now, I showed, I think conclusively, the other day, that the law under which the Commissioners of the Canal Fund were to report to the Legislature, was not changed, and the only pretense that that law has been repealed is in the section that was added to the law of 1861, that the Auditor was to present the report to the Legislatlire directly, instead of presenting it to the Commissioners of the Canal Fund. There is this difference between the report of the Commissioners of the Canal Fund and the report of the Auditor, commonly known as the financial report: the Commissioners of the Canal Fund have the general charge and oversight of the whole subject; not merely that subdivision, which is known as the financial report of the Auditor but also the custody, control, management and recommendations in regard to the disposition of the canal funds. Now lest gentlemen may seem to think that I was led astray by a reminiscence of a quasi political revolution, I refer them to this, that when we first convened here, there were laid on our tables copies of a report of the Commissioners of the Canal Fund, in answer to a resolution of the Senate, relative to the enlargement of the locks on the Erie and Oswego canals. There was a resolution of the Senate requiring them " to report to what extent the cost of enlarging the locks of the Erie and Oswego canals, on the plan and estimate submitted by the State Engineer and Surveyor, can be made a charge on the future revenues from the said canals, without interfering with the prior claims on the said revenues created by the Constitution." Therefore it will be seen that, although it is conceded that the Auditor, now no longer chief clerk, but the financial officer, is empowered by law to present statistical information to the Legislature, known as the financial report, the Senate of 1867, on the very question that is to engage the attention of this body, referred that subject to the Commissioners of the Canal Fund directly, irrespective of the functions of the Auditor of the Canal Department which had by successive laws been gradually increased until, I concede, it was doubtful whether the Auditor had charge of the canal funds, or the Commissioners themselves. I am not willing to seem to take the position of splitting hairs on this or any other question. I am perfectly willing that every reference made by this Convention for statistical information on single or individual subjects, connected with the canals, should go to the Auditor. But When there is any subject presented which directly or indirectly has reference to the subject of the proposed enlargement, then I wish the information to be obtained from the Commissioners of the Canal Fund, and I quote for the gentlemen who opposed me on this ground, the precedent of the Senate, which passed the resolution in reference to this measure. Mr. E. BROOKS -Let me say that by the law, the Canal Commissioners are obliged to report to the Auditor all the information in their pos session, in regard to the administration of the canals. Mr. CONGER —I would like to have the gentleman show me the section of the law. Mr. E. BROOKS -It was cited by the gentletleman from Ulster [Mr. Schoonmaker], in his remarks the other day, in reading the judgment of the Court of Appeals, and I will read an extract from that decision again; but before [ do so, allow me to say to the gentleman, that not only are the Canal Commissioners to report to the Auditor, but the Auditor has the power of removing every superintendent on the canal for cause, and that the Auditor of the Canal Department, alone, has the power to draw warrants. Mr. CONGER-I am only speaking in reference to the Commissioners of the Canal Fund, and not of the canals. Mr. E. BROOKS.-The Canal Commissioners are obliged to report to the Auditor. Mr. CONGER-Does the gentleman from Richmond [MIr. E. Brooks] mean to say that the Auditor has the power of removing the Commissioners of the Canal Fund? Mr. E. BROOKS-No, but he has the power of removing canal superintendents. Mr. CONGER-I shall probably fail to convince the gentleman of the valid distinction on this subject recognized by law and by the practice of the Legislature. That the Auditor has certain powers conferred upon him I do not deny. Will the gentleman maintain that these powers have been so accumulated in the Auditor's department that the Commissioners of the Canal Fund have no longer any constitutional power? Because, if they have no power to do anything under the Constitution, they virtually have been removed from office. But I contend that they have powers. What is the power vested in them as distinguished from the power vested in the Auditor of the Canal Department? I do not deny that the Auditor has certain powers under the law to make reports to the Legislature; but when we come to the Convention which is to revise the Constitution, we are acting under the Constitution, and are in a measure superior to all the laws passed by the Legislature on this subject. We have a right to recognize the original appointees under the Constitution of 1846, who are charged with the information we desire. But, as I have said before, I am willing to take this distinction, and ask the Auditor to give us the specific information on any one particular branch of the canal service. But when it comes to a series of propositions, which by their scope and meaning include a review of the whole subject of the canal funds and the management of the canals, I insist upon it, that by law and by practice, we should refer those questions to the Commissioners of the Canal Fund. I have before me a statement of the whole progress of the law on this subject. I will not detain the Conlvention by reading it, but will allow it to be incorporated in the printed report of my remarks. If any one will take the trouble to examine the legislation from the Revised Statutes, down through the Laws of 1831, and the Laws of 1841. to the present time, I think he will not fail to 169 arrive at the conclusion that there still exists between the functions of the Auditor and the Commissioners of the Canal Fund, a valid and essential distinction and difference. The gentleman from Richmond [Mr. E. Brooks], supposes that we are concluded by the decision of the Court of Appeals. I endeavored to show very briefly, when speaking on this subject, that that decision was only in a case between the Auditor and the Comptroller, as to which was the financial officer of the canals, and had nothing to do with tiis subject. But I dislike very much to tire the Convention. I do not desire to vindicate my own position or opinion, but when it was so promptly and almost universally affirmed that I had mistaken the law and overlooked the amendment of 1861, I felt that I was bound, and tlat it was my duty to bring to the notice of the Con7ention the act of the Senate of 1867. by which they referred this question of enlargement which has to come before this Convention, to the Commissioners of the Canal Fund. If my position is now understood. I hope it will not be questioned again for I am willing to refer each specific informaticn sought for from each canal to the Auditor. I did not object tb the motion of the gentleman from Clinton [Mr. Beckwitl], this morning when he wished to get information in regard to the Champlain canal. I am willing that every information asked for in reference to each one of these canals shall be got from the Auditor; but when it comes to a complicated series of propositions which has no other reference than to the matter which was referred to this Convention by the last Legislature, to wit, the subject of the enlargement of the canals, I think the information ought to come from the Commissioners of the Canal Fund. The following is the statement alluded to by Mr. Conger in his remarks: The whole administration of the canal fund was, by the Revised Statutes, and earlier, vested in the Commissioners of the Canal Fund, who were also directed to recommend to the Legislature all measures which they might deem proper for the improvement of the fund; and also to report to the Legislature at the opening of each session, the condition of the fund. 1 N. Y. Statutes at Large (Edmonds' ed.), 193; section 5 and others. Under this provision of law the Commissioners were accustomed to make an annual report, which was known as their Finanqial Report. Under section 27 of chapter 320 of the Laws of 1831, they were also accustomed to make another annual report, which was known as their Statistical Report. By section 12 of chapter 288 of Laws of 1840, the Commissioners were authorized to appoint a chief clerk; which office was substituted for that of Second Deputy Comptroller; and this officer Was also made chief clerk of the Canal Board. By chapter 162 of the Laws of 1848, the office of Auditor was made, and that of chief clerk of the Canal Department abolished, and the Auditor was vested with all the powers and duties of the chief clerk of the Canal Department, and of the Comptroller in relation to the canals, except as a Commissioner of the Sinking Fund; and the Auditor 22 was made Secretary to the Commissioners of the Canal Fund, and also the Canal Board. By section 7 the form of the statistics on tolls and tonnage report was regulated, and it was required to be made direct to the Legislature. By section 14 the Auditor was required to make a statement to the Commissioners, which was substantially their financial report; and this statement was required to accompany the annual report of the commissioners to the Legislature. By chapter 177, of the Laws of 1861, the said statement of the Auditor was required to be made to the Legislature. The books and papers pertaining to the duties of the Auditor, or to the duties of the commissioners, were required to be deposited in the Canal Department: and to be securely and safely kept by the Auditor; and the appointment of the clerks was transferred from the commissioners to the Auditor. But there is no change in the laws originally prescribing the general powers and duties of the commissioners; nor is even the clause requiring an annual report of their doings repealed. The subsequent provisions requiring that report from their secretary may be construed to satisfy that requirement, on the theory that the Auditor in making it, acts in his capacity as their secretary. The books pertaining to their duties, though in his custody, are their books; and not only have they access to them and control of them for the purpose of discharging their dities, but their secretary must be deemed subject to their call for any information contained in those books which they may deem necessary for the performance of their duties. The information called for by the Convention, on the motion of Mr. Greeley, is wholly distinct,from the two annual reports, the duty of preparing which is by law specially imposed on the Auditor. It relates to the exact duties of the commissioners, in the fiscal administration of the Canal Funds; and calls for a statement of the fiscal results of these works from the beginning of the system, when the fund was placed under the management of the commissioners. Mr. S. TOWNSEND - Mr. President, I fully agree with the gentleman who has just taken his seat [Mr. Conger], as to the complicated nature of the amendments that we are piling upon the original resolution offered by the gentleman from Westchester [Mr. Greeley] who has, with the greatest readiness accepted everything which has been proposed. I would ask the gentleman from Erie [Mr. Hatch] if his amendment goes to the extent of asking the Auditor to compute the probable loss to the Erie canal, from competing lateral routes? Mr. HATCH - The inquiry was made as to the amount of revenues or tolls, which the lateral canals had contributed to the Erie canal. I wanted both sides of the account, and to show how much money the Erie canal had contributed to the maintenance and cost of the'se lateral canals, and also the decrease in revenues by the diversion of business through these lateral canals. Mr. S. TOWNSEND-Then Mr. President, it is evident, that in the midst of such a labyrinth of inquiries the Auditor could not complete and 170 furnish his answers before the first of September, The question was then put on the substitute oy which time, whatever we may have to propose, offered by Mr. Townsend, and accepted by Mr. should be placed before the people for their con- Greeley as amended, and it was declared adopted. sideration, if we expect them to act with delibera- The SECRETARY then proceeded to read the tion upon the questions presented for their review. amendment of Mr. Hatch as follows: Again, running through a long series of years, as 7. And also the amount of outstanding canal these queries do, how is tie Convention to act debt, and when due, and when the same would understandingly in regard to the answers that be paid, assuming, as a basis of calculation for may be returned, unless the figures shall be the future revenues of the toll receipts, the revereduced to the actual value of the currency dollar, nue from the same source for the last seven years. from time to time, ranging as it has done from Mr. HITCHMAN-I think that the subordi100 cents to 35 or 70 cents, -its present rate. nate propositions, Mr. President, might be put to To do this — if the Auditor does not anticipate vote together, and not separately. the dilemma in advance-the members of the Con- Mr. M. I. TOWNSEND-I very much desire vention will have to take pen and paper, or slate that this proposition may go unincumbered to the and pencil and "cipher it out." I have already Auditor. I am entirely willing to vote for the alluded to this fact, when speaking a few days propositions and amendments offered by gentle. ago, of the apparent net canal revenues, which, men to this, but I would consider it a very great as compared to those of twenty years since (some favor if they would put their propositions in the four millions in specie) were now, at the same form of separate resolutions, as I think we will amount in currency, in reality some $1,500,000, get an earlier answer to the inquiry contained in less, although many millions, have in the interim, the original resolution than if the request was been expended on the enlargement and im- coupled with the other requests named. provement of most all of the canals. The gen- The question was then put on the amendment tieman from Richmond [Mr. E. Brooks] has stated of Mr. Hatch. and it was declared adopted. more than once, that all the information sought The SECRETARY then proceeded to read the for in these resolutions, which have consumed so remaining amendment proposed by Mr. Hatch as much of our time, is already before the Conven- follows: tion in one form or another I think that but Resolved, That the Auditor of the Canal Departlittle good can come from all these inquiries, and ment be requested to communicate to this Conthough I should hesitate to move to lay any gen- vention, the amount of revenues of the Erie canal, tlemnan's resolution of inquiry on the table, yet I which has been appropriated for construction and would suggest to the gentleman from Westchester maintenance of lateral canals, and also, the amount [Mr. Greeley], who has already in several of decrease in the revenues of thie Erie canal instances consented to a delay, that he should annually, and in thle aggregate, caused by the allow this resolution to be postponed for a time, division of its business by either of the lateral or for another day at least. canals, with the interest thereon, to the close of Mr. GREELEY-No; I want the information the fiscal year. in any way, and as soon as I can get it. Also the amendment proposed by Mr. Prosser, Mr. HITCHIIAN-This question seems to me as follows: is so loaded down with propositions that I am Resolved, That in making up the accounts of the fearful that the whole matter will go over to so separate canals, the interest upon the cost, and late a date that it will be impossible to receive upon the receipts and expenses, up to the close of the information in time to act intelligently upon the last fiscal year, shall be computed at the rate it. I would therefore move that a division of the of five per cent compounded annually. vote be had, upon the questions, and that we first Tlie question was then put on the two amendtake the question upon the resolution presented menrts. a.l4 they were declared lost. by the gentleman from Rensselaer [Mr. M. 1. Mr. KINNEiY offered the following amendment Townsend]. to be added to the last proposition: Mr. E. BROOKS-Believing that all the im- "And that the Auditor be requested to report portant information in regard to the matter, is upon the several propositions of inquiry in their contained in the pamphlet upon our tables, I order, and as soon as each answer be completed. move that the whole subject be laid upon the The question was put on the amendment of Mr. table. Kinney, and it was declared adopted. The question was put on the motion of Mr. E. The question then recurred on the adoption of Brooks, and was declared lost. the substitute of Mr. Townsend, as amended by The PRESIDENT announced the question to be Mr. Greeley's resolution, and it was declared on the substitute offered by Mr. M. I. Townsend, adopted. and accepted by Mr. Greeley. Mr. VAN CAMPEN - I desire to call from the Mr. SCHOONMAKER- I would like to call table a resolution offered by me yesterday, asking the attention of the gentleman from Rensselaer information from the State Engineer and Sur[Mr. M. I. Townsend], to this fact-that interest veyor. is called for only on one side of the account, by The SECRETARY proceeded to read the resohis resolution. It calls for interest upon the cost lution as follows. of construction and not for interest upon receipts. Resolved, That the State Engineer and Surveyor I move to amend the third subdivision, by adding be requested, at his earliest convenience, to furnish thereto the words "and legal interest thereon up in a tabular form, from the reports of the railroad to the close of the last fiscal year." companies of the State, from the 30th day of SepMr. GREELEY - I accept the amendment. tember, 1850, to the 30th day of September, 1866, 171 kinds in pursuance of section 31, of chapter 140 of the Laws of 1850, for the use of this House of Delegates, the total amount of freight in tons of 2,000 lbs. carried over each road, the number of tons carried one mile, with the amount of each kind of frieght classified. The question was then put on the resolution of Mr. Van Campen, and it was declared adopted. On motion of Mr. BERGEN, the Convention adjourned. THURSDAY JUNE 27, 1867. The Convention met at 11 o'clock A. M. Prayer was offered by Rev. H. N. Pohlman. The Journal of yesterday was read by the Secretary. Mr. HATCH - There were two resolutions presented by me yesterday, and as I understand it, they were both adopted. I do not understand from the reading of the journal that the second one was adopted. The PRESIDENT-The Secretary will read the journal as it stands. The SECRETARY proceeded to read the portion specified, showing the second resolution to have been lost. There being no further objection to the journal it was dec:ared approved. The PRESIDENT announced the assignment of the following reporters, to seats on the floor of the Convention. REPORTERS.- G. W. Demers, J. Wesley Smith, J. F. Mines, Nathan Comstock, J. C. Fitzpatrick, Hiram Calkins, H. J. Hastings, Chas. E. Smith, Geo. W. Bull, A. Wilder, M. H. Northrup, A. G. Johnson, C. B. Martin. Mr. SMITH-I have the honor to present for the consideration of the Convention, a memorial of the surviving veterans of 1812, through their representative and commandant Gen. Van Rensselaer of this city. It prays for a constitutional provision, making it obligatory upon the Legislature to provide for the payment of certain claims for clothing and contingent expenses, incurred by them while in the service of tie country during the war. It appears from the paper and the accompanying documents that in the month of April, 1812, Congress passed a law authorizng the President to call out the militia of this State and order them into service for six ronths, at a compensation of eight dollars a month, without any bounty or any allowance for clothing. A large proportion of those called out in this manner, were poor men, wholly dependent Upon their daily labor for the support of themselves and families, and this pittance allowed by Congress was found wholly inadeluate to their necessities; but serve they must, and serve they did, cheerfully and faithfully. eking out the means of sub8Sstence for themselves and families, and providing for clothing and contingent expenses as best they Could. Since the close of the war, the State through the Legislature has on several occasions recognized the existence and justice of these claims, and has adopted measures looking to their payment; but for causes which it is not necessary here to mention, these measures have failed to secure the objects proposed by them. The PRESIDENT —Will the gentleman suspend a moment. Is the gentleman from Fulton, [Mr. Smith] stating the substance of the memorial? Mr. SMITH-I am. The PRESIDENT —The gentleman will proceed then. Mr. SMITH - I will detain the Convention but a moment. In 1859, a law was passed appointing a commission, composed of the adjutant-general and inspector-general of the State, to audit these claims. That commission proceeded in the discharge of its duties, audited about 17,000 claims, and issued, in pursuance of the provisions of the act, certificates of indebtedness, which these claimants and their representatives now hold against the State. It is claimed by the memorialists that if the State could be sued in a court, the whole of these claims might be enforced, and it is thought that a sovereign State ought to do voluntarily and cheerfully, what an individual under similar obligations, could be compelled to do by process of law. These men, in the hour of our peril, bravely defended our soil and our property, and upheld the honor of our flag; we are to-day reaping the fruit of their toil and their sacrifices, and we cannot afford to do them injustice. Our opportunity, sir, will soon be lost. Of 63,000 only about 1500 remain, and the youngest of those has already filled up the measure of the allotted period of man's existence. Whether this is the proper body to afford the relief, is for the Convention to decide, but it seems to me under the circumstances it cannot do less than respectfully receive and consider their memorial. I move therefore its reference to the Committee on Finance. The memorial was referred to the Committee on the Finances of the State. Mr. TUCKER-I wish to present two petitions of citizens of the State of New York, praying for an equal right of suffrage to both men and women. The petitions were referred to the Committee on the Right of Suffrage. Mr. ANDREWS —I have a memorial of Mrs. C. B. Sedgwick, and seventy-two other petitioners, principally ladies, residents of Syracuse, praying that the Constitution of this State may be so amended, as to secure the right of suffrage to women as well as men, on equal terms. I ask that it may be received and referred to the Committee on the Right of Suffrage. The petition was referred to the Committee on the Right of Suffrage. Mr. BU RRILL-I have a communication, sir, from one of the justices of the Supreme Court, making suggestions in regard to the proposed amendments for the re-organization of the judiciary. I move it be received and referred to the Committee on Judiciary. The communication was referred to the Committee an Judiciary. The PRESIDENT presented the following memorial. The SECRETARY proceeded to read the memorial as follows 172 NEW YORK, JUNE 25, 1867. eral provisions of the same, as contained in the Hon. WM. A. WHEELER, President of the Con- present Constitution, respectfully report: stitutional Convention: That, in the opinion ot the Committee, section Der Sir-At a meeting of the 18th Assembly 9 of article 1, reading as follows: "The assent of District Union Republican Association, of the city othirds of the Legislature, shall be requisite to every branch of New York, held on Monday evening June 24, of tin the Legislature, shall be requisite to evpropery foill the following preamble and resolution was.i'ant- appropriating the public moneys or property for the following preamble and resolution was unani- local or private purposes;" and all that part of mously adopted, and ordered to be sent to you for section 10 o said article reading as follows: "nor presentation to the Convreading as follows: "nor presentation to the Convention shall any divorce be granted otherwise than by Yours, respectfully, due judicial proceedings, nor shall any lottery. C. PULLMANA Presitent. hereafter be authorized, or any sale of lottery. COAC AN, Secretar. tickets allowed within this State," do not properly WHEREAS. One of the fundamental principles of belong to the subject which has been referred to our system of government is the right of men as them. india iduals, to worship God in any form, or not at They therefore ask to be discharged from the all, as they think proper, and. further consideration of those provisions, and that WHEREAS, Such a principle means that the peo- the same, together with so much of the resolution pie should not be taxed for the support of any of Mr. Bickford, adopted June 19, 1867, as relates religion or creed, and to section 9, be referred to Committee No. 3, "on WHEREAS, In violation of this principle, the the Powers and Duties of the Legislature, except Legislature and the common council of this city, as otherwise referred." have from time to time donated money from the And, inasmuch as a standing committee has public treasury for the benefit of particular sects been provided [No. 22], " on the relations of the and religions, therefore * State to the Indians residing therein," and the Resolved, That this association respectfully report of the Secretary of State, in answer to a request the Constitutional Convention now in ses- resolution of inquiry in regard to their numbers, sion at Albany, to have a provision inserted in the lands, etc., has been referred to that committee, it Constitution, prohibiting the Legislature or any is also the opinion of this committee, that section public body from donating any of the public prop- 16 of said article more appropriately belongs to, erty for the benefit, directly or indirectly, of any and may be considered by that committee. creed or religious sect. Thils committee therefore respectfully ask that The PRESIDENT- If there is no objection this they may be discharged from the further conwill be referred to the Committee on Charities and sideration of said section 6, and that the same Charitable Institutions. may be referred to the Committee No. 22, "on Mr. DEVELIN -Mr. President:-Is that a pro- the relation of the State to the Indians residing er reference for the memorial? Ought it not go to therein." the Committee on the Powers and Duties of the By order of the Committee. Legislature. GEO. T. SPENCER. The PRESIDENT-The Chair will entertain The PRESIDENT-The Chair would inform any motion for the reference of the memorial. the gentleman from Steuben [Mr. Spencer]. that Mr. DEVELIN-I make that motion, that it be under rule 16, a portion of this report will necesreferred to the Committee on the Powers and sarily go to the Committee of the Whole, and Duties of the Legislature. that the question will have to be divided, being The question was put on the motion of Mr first taken on the first part of the report. Develin, and it was declared to be carried. Mr. SPENCER-I have no objection to that, sir. Mr. PAIGE-I have in my hand a communi- The PRESIDENT -The first part of the recaticn, requesting a reference to the appropriate port will be referred to the Committee of the committee, with regard to the expediency of Whole, and the question is upon agreeing to the amending the Constitution so as to require the remainder of the report of the committee. general and local officers elected, or appointed to Mr. VERPLANCK-I hope, sir. it will all go any office in the State, to take an oath, a copy of to the Committee of the Whole. This section in which accompanies the communication. This is reference to the Indians has always been incorproperly referable to several Committees, but I porated in the Bill of Rights. move its reference to the Committee on the Right Mr. SPENCER —The object of this report is of Suffrage, and the Qualification to hold Office. to have various subjects which are before the Mr. M. I. TOWNSEND called for the reading Conventionr so classified and so considered by of the memorial. each appropriate committee, that no one committee, Mr. PAIGE-It is not exactly in the nature of will be under the necessity of reporting something a memorial, but is a communication addressed to which has been considered and reported upon by me, containing the form of an oath. another committee. The SECRETARY proceeded to read the cor- Mr. CONGER - May I ask the President what munication, which was referred to the Committee rule this is? on the Right of Suffrage. The PRESIDENT -Rule 16 provides that all Mr. SPENCER, from the Committee on the Pre- reports embracing proposals for constitutional amble and Bill of Rights, made the following alterations, shall be referred to the Committee of report: the Whole. The Committee on the Preamble and Bill of Mr. CONGER -I would respectfully suggest Rights, having had under consideration the sev- that this is a resolution to refer a subject, not on its 173 merits, but simply to refer it to another commit- The SECRETARY proceeded to read the resotee. lution, as follows: Mr. SPENCER-The report asks that this Resolved, That the Commissioners of the Land committee be discharged from the further consid- Office be respectfully requested to report to this eration of these provisions named, and that they Convention, as soon as practicable, the following be referred to the appropriate committees. particulars in regard to the " Salt Reservations" The PRESIDENT - The Chair misunderstood of the State. it, by simply hearing a portion. 1. The quantity of land originally set apart by The question was then put upon agreeing to the the State for the purpose of manufacturing salt. report of the committee, and it was declared 2. The quantity of land now owned by the adopted. State and devoted to that object. Mr. FOWLER offered the following resolu- 3. The towns and counties in which said lands tion: are located, and the number of acres in each Resolved, That it be referred to the appropriate locality. committee to report upon the expediency of an 4. The present value of such lands, if the same amendment to the Constitution providing that all can be readily ascertained, or the nearest possible local legislation of counties be vested in their approximate value thereof. respective boards of supervisors —that each town 5. The cost and present value of the salt wells, be entitled to one member of such board, and to structures and improvements thereto, made and an additional member for each and every 2,500 of owned by the State. population of such town over and above 2,000. 6. The probable value of the salines connected That such committee further report upon the therewith. propriety of prohibiting counties, towns and vil- 7. The yearly expense to the State for the care lages from incurring pecuniary obligations, raising and management of the same; including new of moneys and making donations for charitable or structures, repairs, superintendence, etc. religious objects, or for any other purpose, other 8. The yearly revenues received therefrom. than those which legitimately pertain to their Mr. BELL -The committee on that subject are economical government. of the opinion that further information should be Mr. BICKFORD-The gentleman who has just required; I therefore ask that the resolution be offered the resolution, did not specify what com- amended as I now propose. mittee it should be referred to. I move its refer- The SECRETARY proceeded to read the amendence to the Committee on Towns and Counties. ment proposed, as follows: The resolution was referred to the Committee Add thereto: 9th. The cost of draining lands, on Towns and Counties. by lowering the outlet of Onondaga Lake. The Mr. GRANT offered the following resolution: whole quantity of land thus reclaimed, showing Resolved, That it be referred to Committee No. the number of acres which inured to the State 4 to consider the expediency of withholding, by also to individuals by name. constitutional provisions, the right of suffrage 10. The quantity of lands exchanged for marsh from deserters of the army and navy, including or reclaimed lands, and the value thereof. deserters from conscription as well as from actual 11. The amount of money paid, and to whom service. paid by the State to owners of solar salt works, Which was referred to the Committee on the on lands thus exchanged, for damages to such Right of Suffrage. works, and for removing the same. Mr. S. TOWNSEND offered the following reso- 12. The names of parties now holding grants lution: and leases from the State for the use of lands for Resolved, That the Committee [No. 20] on In- the manufacturers of solar salt. The report to dustrial Interests, etc., are instructed to examine state in detail the lands bought, sold and exchanged and report to this body upon the propriety of on the reservations since 1846; the amount of providing by constitutional provision that the money received and paid therefor, and for dammeasure of capacity or quantity be based upon ages or otherwise thereon. weight wherever practicable, and that the expan- The PRESIDENT —No action having been sions and subdivisions of such units of weight taken on the resolution it will be ahmended as reshall be in the ratio of decimals. quested. Which was referred to the Committee on Indus- The question was then put on the resolution of trial Interests. Mr. Bell as amended, and it was declared adopted. Mr. ROBERTSON offered the following resolu- Mr. L. W. RUSSELL offered the following resotion: ution for reference Resolved, That the Committee on the Judiciary Resolved, That the legislative power be vested be discharged from the consideration of so much in a Senate and an Assembly. Senators shall of the matter referred to them by a resolution hold office four years, members of Assembly one Passed on the 24th instant as relates to the limita- year. tion and regulation of claims against the State, Each county shall elect two members of Asand that such matter be referred to Committee sembly, and one additional member for each 7,500 o-. 3, upon the Powers and Duties of the Legis- of its electors; provided, that the Assembly shall lature. not contain more than 225 members. Which was adopted. The Senate shall be composed of forty SenaMr. BELL —I call for the consideration of a tors, ten of whom shall be elected each year by resolution offered by me on Friday, calling on the the electors of the whole State,one from each of the Commissioners of the Land Office for information ten Senatorial districts into which the State shall 174 be divided. The salary of Senators and members of the Assembly shall be $1,000 per annum, in lieu of all fees and perquisites. Which was referred to the Committee on the Organization of the Legislature. Mr. COLAHAN — I move to call up the resolution which I offered on the 25th in relation to accidents on railroads. The SECRETARY proceeded to read the resolution, as follows: WHEREAS, Numerous accidents have occurred of late years upon the railroads and steamboats of this State, resulting invariably in great loss of life, and WHEREAS, Such accidents have in most instances occurred through the negligence or ignorance of the corporations or companies controlling said railroads and steamboats, and for the reason of the proven inability of the public to receive redress or security from the Legislature of this State, and of their ineffectiveness of enforcing the civil remedy, now given by statute against such monetarily powerful and politically influential corporations. Resolved, That a committee of five be appointed to consider and devise some action to be had by this body which will hold said corporation or companies to a more strict accountability for their acts, and make them directly amenable for all losses of life and limb sustained by individuals through their neglect or ignorance-action that will make them mindful of their responsibilities and the obligations they are under to the public at large. Also, that this committee be empowered and directed to ascertain from the proper sources of information, the number of accidents that have occurred, and the number of losses to life and limb for the ten years last past, and report the same to this Convention. Mr. COLAHAN —Mr. President: The vital importance of the subject of this resolution must be felt by every member of this Convention. Thus far we have had under consideration a variety of propositions for the protection of property, for the full enjoyment of natural rights, for the extension of political privileges, for the greater development of our republican form oI government and for the means of better securing the blessings of this government to the people at large. Now sir, I propose in this resolution a subject of still greater importance, one of prior value to that of property and possessions-the better security of life itself. The experience of every observer of daily occurrences for years past, must have made him familiar with the horrible record of railroad and steamboat casualties. The Large headings of newspapers, announcing the fact of "another boiler explosion," " another collision of steam cars turning a curve," or "running off time," an upsetting of the train over an embankment, or of dropping through a bridge; inseparably accompanied with the further announcement of - "Serious loss of life " - have perceptibly grown small, not because of the less appreciation of life, but because of the fact of the constant recurrence of such scenes and accidents, and of its familiarizing effect upon the public itself. These institutions are in the control of the opulent and influential, managed by those who have much to say in the management of the political destinies of this State, those who sing loudest for the public prosperity, and who for these reasons are almost omnipotent in confronting any legislative action that might subject such corporations or companies to a more strict accountability for their action or reduce to any extent the per centum of their dividends. To-day, while boards of directors are calculating their net profits, humanity is being jerked out of existence and into eternity. While dividends are being raised to advance the sale of stocks, or lowered for the purpose of purchasing in, human beings are being blown into open space or sunk in a watery grave. True, a civil remedy is provided, but what is its effect? No individual can successfully carry on litigation with one of these corporations, or if he does, he often finds himself sick, disgusted and penniless long before the determination of such litigation. Even when successful,the damages are limited to the sum of $5,000, so that these corporations and companies may maim and kill ad infinitum, for the cheap cost of $5,000 per head. There may be some cases of inevitable accident, but I think the facts will bear me out when I say that four-fifths of these accidents can be traced to the want of skill or carelessness in management, and often to a complete disregard for the security of life itself. Now, sir, I trust that this Convention will not overlook this subject, and answer that it is a matter of legislative business, for the Legislature has repeatedly refused to give a just and secure remedy. It is a subject that commends itself to the earnest consideration of every member present, and one upon which the public will criticise our action probably as closely as upon that of any other subject before this body. Mr. SILVESTER- I move that that resolution be referred to Committee No. 14, on Corporations other than Municipal, Banking and Insurance. Mr. COLAHAN-I accept the proposed reference. The question was then put on the motion of Mr. Silvester, and it was declared adopted. Mr. POND -I wish to move a reconsideration of the vote yesterday, by which the resolution introduced by me yesterday, in reference to holding the sessions of this Convention at Saratoga, was indefinitely postponed. The PRESIDENT -The motion will lie on the table under the rule. Mr. BURRILL offered the following resolution, and asked that it be referred to the Committee on the Bill of Rights. Resolved, That it be referred to the Committee on the Bill of Rights, to inquire into the expediency of so amending the Constitution. as to provide that on trials by courts martial the accused shall be entitled to testify on his own behalf, and shall also be entitled to appear and defend by counsel. Which was referred to the Committee on the Preamble and Bill of Rights. Mr. JARVIS offered the following resolution: Resolved, That it be referred to the Judiciary 175 Committee to consider the propriety of organizing the Court of Appeals upon the following basis: The election of ten judges, five of whom shall constitute the court for the hearing of all appeals, and who shall sit alternately during the months of the year; so as to give the five judges holding the court one month, the opportunity during the ensu iug month to examine and dispose of the cases previously submitted, and to secure a court of final resort, constantly in session. Which was referred to the Committee on the Judiciary. Mr. STRONG-I offer a resolution to provide for the changing of one of our rules. The PRESIDENT-The Chair will inform the gentleman it cannot be received except on one day's notice under the rule. Mr. DEVELIN offered the following resolution: Resolved, That it be referred to Committee No. 5, to consider the propriety and expediency of limiting the veto power to questions of constitutionality, exclusively. Which was referred to the Committee on the Governor, Lieutenant-Governor, etc. Mr. SILVESTER offered the following resolution: Resolved, That it be referred to Committee No. 3, on the Powers and Duties of the Legislature, to inquire into the expediency of providing in the Constitution that no bill shall be sent from one branch of the Legislature to the other, within ten days prior to the final adjournment. Which was laid over under the rule. Mr. GROSS offered the following resolutionWHEREAS, At the last annual session of the General Court of Massachusetts, before a joint committee, the question of license and prohibition has undergone a thorough examination, and the advocates on either side have endeavored to place the most ample material on the subject before the Legislature of their State; therefore Resolved, That the Secretary of the Convention be instructed to apply to the State Librarian, or to the Clerk of the General Court of Massachusetts, for several copies of the printed debates on the above named subject for the use of each, the Committee on Legislative Powers and Duties, the Committee on Cities. and the Special Committee on Adulterated Liquors. Which was laid over under the rule. Mr. FULLER offered the following resolution: Resolved, That it be referred to the Committee on Canals to inquire into the propriety and expediency of providing for the imposition and collection of tolls on railroads running parallel to the Erie canal in the State, during the season of navigation in each year, in aid of the canal revenues, and as a measure of justice to the people of the State. Which was referred to the Committee on Canals. Mr. TUCKER offered the following resolution and moved its reference to the Committee on Contingent Expenses: Resolved, That the same amount of stationery given to the members of the Convention, be allowed to those reporters of the Convention appointed by the President under the rules governing this body. Which was referred to the Committee on Contingent Expenses. Mr. E. BROOKS offered the following resolution, and asked that it be referred to the Committee on Canals. Resolved, That the Committee on Canals be directed to examine into and report upon the expediency of providing an amendment to the Constitution for the leasing for a term of years the Champlain canal, provided that leases can be so made as to secure increased revenue for the State, a reduction of tolls, and a speedier as well as cheaper transit of goods. Which was referred to the Committee on Canals. Mr. BELL - I call for the consideration of the resolution offered by me on Tuesday, calling for information in relation to the manufacture of salt. Tlie SECRETARY proceeded to read the resolution, as follows: Resolved, That the Superintendent of the Onondaga Salt Springs be respectfully requested to furnish, for the use of this Convention, the following information in regard to the salt springs and tle manufacture of salt: 1. The whole number of salt wells on the " reservation." 2. The number owned and now in use by the State. 3. The quantity of salt, in bushels of 56 lbs. each, said wells are capable of producing annually. 4. The least, greatest and average quantity of salt of the different kinds produced therefrom. 5. The annual ratio of increase and diminution of production. 6. The principal causes which operate to produce an increase or diminution in the yearly production of salt. 7. The facilities, such as wells, pumps, reservoirs, aqueducts, machinery, labor or otherwise, which the State furnishes in the manufacture of salt, showing the share of the cost per barrel borne by the State in proportion to the whole expense thereof. 8. The minimum, maximum and average price at which salt has been sold at the " works " during the last twenty years. 9. The present price of salt. 10. The whole number of fine salt manufactories or blocks, and the capacity and value thereof, now on the reservation, and by whom owned. 11. The number of coarse or solar salt vats or covers, by whom owned, and the value thereof. 12. The quantity of salt lands leased, to whom, at what rent, and for what term of time. Mr. BELL-I wish to add an amendment to the resolution. The SECRETARY proceeded to read the amendment as follows: Amend resolution by adding thereto as follows: 13. The amount of money received for duties on coarse or solar salt since 1845. 14. The cost to the State, or its pro rata share tlereof, for expenses incurred in the manufacture of coarse or solar salt during the same period. There being no objection, it was amended as requested. The question was then put on the resolution 176 of Mr. Bell as amended, and it was declared adopted. Mr. LAPHAM-At the request of the chairman of the Committee on Pardons. I ask to take from the table the resolution offered by me on the 18th. The SECRETARY proceeded to read the resolution, as follows: Resolved, That the Governor of the State be requested to communicate to this Convention as soon as practicable, a list containing the number of the applications made to the Executive for pardon during the years 1864, 1865 and 1866- the number of such applications granted, with the nature of the offenses, in classes. Mr. LAPHAM- At the suggestion of the gentleman from Albany [Mr. Harris], made the other day, I find that in part 2 of the Manual, which has been laid upon my table since the resolution was offered, part of the information sought in that resolution is already given. I ask, therefore, to substitute the following: The SECRETARY read the proposed substitute as follows: Resolved, That the Governor of the State be requested to communicate to this body, as soon as practicable, a list containing the number of applications for pardons from 1847 to 1866, inclusive, stating the nature of the offenses in classes. The question was then put ou the original resolution of Mr. Lapham, as amended, and it was declared adopted. Mr. LAPHAM offered the following resolution: Resolved, That the Committee on Pardons be requested to inquire into the expediency of so amending the Constitution as to provide that all applications for pardons shall be made to the officer or board having charge of State prisons, whose decision, if adverse to the granting of a pardon, shall dispose of the same; but in case a pardon shall be recommended, the decision shall be referred to the Governor for final action, who may grant or refuse the same. Which was referred to the Committee on the Pardoning Power. Mr. T. W. DWIGHT offered the following over as a matter of course. If it is desired by the friends of an adjournment to consider it, it is very proper that we should consider it now under Rule 28. The PRESIDENT —The Chair understood the gentleman from Saratoga [Mr. Pond], to ask that it lie upon the table. Mr. POND - That it lie upon the table. Mr. MERRITT - I object. The PRESIDENT- The Chair holds the objection should have been made at the time. On motion of Mr. LARREMORE, the Convention adjourned. FRIDAY, JUNE 28, 1867. The Convention met at 11 o'clock, A. M. Prayer was offered by Rev. DEXTER E. CLAPP. The journal of yesterday was read by the Secretary. Mr. BICKFORD- The resolution which was offered by the gentleman from Madison [Mr. Fowler], yesterday, was referred on my motion, according to the journal to the Committee on Towns and Counties; it should be, sir, the Committee on Town and County Officers. Mr. FOWLER-The resolution was properly referred to the Committee on Towns, Counties and Villages. The object of the resolution was in reference to the powers and duties of Boards of Supervisors and the Committee on Towns, Counties, and Villages have jurisdiction over the organization and powers of Boards of Supervisors. I think the resolution was properly referred. The PRESIDENT -The motion of the gentleman from Jefferson [Mr. Bickford] to refer, prevailed. Does the gentleman accept the reference suggested by the gentleman from Madison [Mr. Fowler]? Mr. BICKFORD- I am not very particular to which committee it should go, but I thought it was properly referable to Committee No. 7. The PRESIDENT - The motion to refer having prevailed, cannot be changed except by unanimous consent. resolution: Mr. CONGER - I was going to suggest that on Resolved, That the Committee on the Powers a motion to correct the journal, we could not and Duties of the Legislature [No. 3] be in- change a reference of a resolution to any certain structed to inquire as to the expediency of committee. restricting the Legislature in the enactment of The journal was corrected, and there being no laws, as follows: further objection thereto it was declared approved. No law shall relate to more than one subject, Mr. CURTIS-I was not in my place yesterday and that shall be expressed in its title; but if when the journal was read, but I observed by the any subject embraced in an act, be not expressed paper published in the evening, which is to be in its title, such act shall be void only as to so the final record of the proceedings of this Conmuch thereof as is not so expressed. This clause vention, that the name which headed the petition shall not be construed to apply to appropriation I had the honor to present, was incorrectly bills. printed, and as I wish the cause for which that No law shall be revised or amended by any lady has labored should have the benefit of her reference to its title, but the act revised, or the distinguished name, I ask that the Secretary will section amended, shall be re-enacted and pub- change the name to Mrs. Daniel Cady, of Johnslished at length. town, in this State. Which was referred to the Committee on the The PRESIDENT announced the following as Powers and Duties of the Legislature. the Select Committee on Suppressing Official CorMr. MERRITT-I would like to ask for ruption by means of constitutional provisions: information as to the condition of the motion made Messrs. Opdyke, Flagler, Tilden, M. I. Townsend by the gentleman from Saratoga [Mr. Pond]. If and Loew. I understand the rule, the motion does not go Mr. C. C. DWIGHT presented the petition of 177 Mrs. Eliza Osborn and twenty-two others, men and women, of Auburn, asking for suffrage for women. Which was referred to the Committee on the Right of Suffrage. Mr. COOKE presented the petition of Mrs. Lina Vandenburgh and 350 others, on the same subject. Which took the same reference. Mr. ARCHER presented the petition of sundry citizens on the same subject. Which took the same reference. Mr. WEED presented the petition of Mrs. E. A. Kingsbury and twenty others on the same subject. Which took the same reference. Mr. SCHOONMAKER presented the petition of Mrs. M. I. Ingraham and others on the same subject. Which took the same reference. Mr. HOUSTON presented the petition of Lucia Sutton and others, on the same subject. Which took the same reference. Mr. RATHBUN presented the petition of Mrs. A. H. Sabin and twenty others, on the same subject. Which took the same reference. Mr. J. BROOKS presented the petition of Emma Suydam and fifteen others, on the same subject. Which took the same reference. The PRESIDENT presented a memorial from McDonough Bucklin, citizen, on the subject of the finances of the State. Which was referred to the Committee on the Finances of the State. Mr. GRAVES- I have the pleasure of presenting two memorials, one from Schoharie county, containing the names of 204 men and women, asking that a provision be incorporated in the Constitution prohibiting the sale of intoxicating liquors. The second is the petition of Lucia Humphrey and thirty others, asking for an amendment to provide for equal suffrage. The first petition was referred to the Select Committee on the subject of adulterated liquors, and the second, to the Committee on the Right of Suffrage. Mr. STRONG - I give the following notice: That on to-morrow or some subsequent day, I will propose an amendment to the rules as follows: That no amendment to the Constitution shall be adopted except upon the affirmative vote of a majority of all the delegates elected to this Convention. Mr. GREELEY from the Committee on the Right of Suffrage and the Qualifications to hold Office submitted the following report: Your committee, having given careful attention to the subject referred to them, have prepared as a substitute for Article II. of the present Constitution the following: ARTICLE -. SEc. 1. Every man of the age of twenty-one Years who shall have been an inhabitant of this State for one year next preceding an election, and for the last thirty days a citizen of the United States, and a resident of the election district where he may offer his vote, shall be entitled to vote at such election, in said district, and not elsewhere, for all officers elected by the people; 23 Provided, That idiots, lunatics, persons under guardianship, felons and persons convicted of bribery, unless pardoned or otherwise restored to civil rights, shall not be entitled to vote. No person who shall at any time within thirty days next preceding, have been a public pauper, shall vote at any election. No person who shall receive, expect to receive, pay, or offer to pay, any money or other valuable thing to influenee or reward a vote to be given at an election, shall vote at such election; and, upon challenge for such cause, the person so challenged shall, before the inspectors receive his vote, swear or affirm before such inspectors that he has not received, does not expect to receive, has not paid nor offered to pay, any money or other valuable thing to influence or reward a vote to be given at such election. Laws may be passed excluding from voting at an election every person, who shall have made, or who shall be interested in, a bet or wager depending upon the result thereof. ~ 2. For the purpose of voting, no person shall be deemed to have gained or lost a residence by reason of his presence or absence while employed in the service of the United States, nor while engaged in the navigation of the waters of this State, of the United States, or of the high seas, nor while kept in any almshouse or other asylum, at the public expense, nor while confined in any public prison. And the Legislature shall prescribe the manner in which electors absent from their homes in time of war, in the actual military or naval service of this State, or of the United States, may vote, and shall provide for the canvass and return of their votes. ~ 3. Laws shall be made for ascertaining by proper proofs the citizens who shall be entitled to the right of suffrage hereby established. And the Legislature shall provide that a register of all citizens entitled to the right of suffrage, in each election district shall be made and completed at least six days before any election; and no person shall vote at such election who shall not have been registered according to law; but such laws shall be uniform in their requirements throughout the State. ~ 4. All elections by the citizens shall be by ballot, except for such town officers as may by law be directed to be otherwise chosen. ~ 5. No person who is not, at the time of taking the oath of office, an elector, shall hold any office under this Constitution. All officers shall, before they enter on the duties of their respective offices, take and subscribe the following oath or affirmation: "I do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will "support the Constitution of the United States "and the Constitution of the State of New York; "and that I will faithfully discharge the duties "of (the office be is to hold) according to the "best of my ability." EXPLANATIONS. It will be seen that the existing article has been retained by us in substance, and that the qualifications of a legal voter proposed by us be: 1. Adult rational manhood. 2. Citizenship of the United States of not less than thirty days' standing. 178 3. Residence in the State for the year preceding. 4. Residence in the election district for the last thirty days. 5. Freedom from crime. 6. Exemption from dependence on others through pauperism or guardianship. The material changes we recommend are these, 1st. Strike out all discriminations based on color. Slavery, the vital source and only plausible ground of such invidious discrimination, being dead, not only in this State, but throughout the Union, as it is soon to be, we trust, throughout this hemisphere, we can imagine no tolerable excuse for perpetuating the existing proscription. Whites and blacks are required to render like obedience to our laws, and are punished in like measure for their violation. Whites and blacks were indiscriminately drafted and held to service to fill our State's quotas in the war whereby the Republic was saved from disruption. We trust that we are henceforth to deal with men according to their conduct, without regard to their color. If so, the fact should be embodied in the Constitution. We ask you to abolish the present requirement of four months' residence in a county as a prerequisite to voting. This exaction bears hardly on such residents of cities as spend their summer mainly in the country, and cannot afford to maintain a double residence. Thousands of intelligent and patriotic young mechanics, employed as carpenters, bricklayers, painters, plumbers, gasfitters, etc., by masters located in our great cities, are sent out to work in neighboring counties for periods over which they have no control, and in November find their right to vote anywhere questionable, if not invalid. Hundreds of Methodist and other clergymen who are assigned to new charges in summer, find themselves disfranchised -when our State election comes around. Under circumstances which impel doubt as to the right of a citizen to vote, the conscientious refrain, while the unscrupulous insist. We hold it wise to abolish a requirement which debars thousands of capable and worthy citizens, while it is a constant incitement to distortion or suppression of truth, to dissimulation and perjury. At present, a resident in any county for four months is allowed to vote at the poll of any district wherein he actually resides on the day of election, though he may be a total stranger in that district, and does not pretend to have resided in it two days, only he must vote to fill an office he could not have voted to fill before his change of residence. But how are inspectors to know the contents of his folded ballot? And how are frauds to be prevented in districts where the preponderance of one party is overwhelming? It seems advisable to your committee to require an absolute residence by the voter of thirty days in the district where he tenders his ballot. This will give time for proper scrutiny, and will, when accompanied by an efficient registry, afford a substantial barrier against fraud. And the cases must be few indeed where the requirement of a thirty days' residence before voting will work individual hardship or affect the result of an important election. Our present Constitution requires that naturalization shall precede voting by at least ten days; a memorial referred to us asks that this interval be extended to sixty days. We have fixed on thirty days as the proper time. We would stop the hunting out and dragging up before courts of indifferent and often reluctant immigrants in order to crowd them into citizenship, in order to affect by their votes the result of a pending election. This is the object of the present requirement of ten days' interval; and it will be far more completely accomplished by extending the prescribed term to thirty days. It is well, moreover, that the terms of citizenship and residence inthe election district should be identical, so as to avoid complexity and possible misapprehension. Should we extend the interval between naturalization and voting to sixty days, the change would be inveighed against as impelled by a spirit of hostility to adopted citizens, or by a desire to impede naturalization. We trust the Convention will assent to our proposition. As to disfranchisement of criminals and lawbreakers, what we propose is very nearly identical with what is now prescribed, partly by the Constitution, partly by statute. It has seemed to us advisable to make the qualifications of voters as specific and unambiguous as possible, and to fix them, so far as may be, in the Constitution. We propose that public paupers shall not be voters. We hold that to allow the inmates of almshouses, subsisting upon the charity of the public, to vote, is to accord an excessive influence and power over the results of our elections to the keepers of those establishments, whose retention in office is often at stake, each of whom can appeal with effect to his boarders not to vote him out of house and home. The end is now awkwardly contemplated in the provision that no pauper shall gain or lose a residence by reason of his stay in an almshouse; but it is evaded by sending the paupers, under watchful keepers, just prior to an important election, to the towns or wards whence they came, there to be registered and vote, when they are welcomed back to their old haunts as patriots who have been absent in their country's and their keeper's service. Specific disfranchisement will add to the wholesome horror of pauperism now cherished by most Americans, and there seems to be no good reason for allowing paupers to govern by their votes the policy of our country and State, and at the same time enabling them to supersede a keeper who may have been so cruel as to require the able-bodied among them to work. At all events, let this matter be dealt with frankly. Having thus briefly set forth the considerations which seem to us decisive in favor of the few and moderate changes proposed above, we proceed to indicate our controlling reasons for declining to recommend other and, in some respects, more important innovations. Your committee does not recommend an extension of the elective franchise to women. However defensible in theory, we are satisfied that public sentiment does not demand, and would not sustain, an innovation so revolutionary and sweeping, so openly at war with a distribution of duties and functions between the sexes as venerable and 179 pervading as government itself, and involving transformations so radical in social and domestic life. Should we prove to be in error on this hlead, the Convention may overrule us by changing a few words in the first section of our proposed article. Nor have we seen fit to propose the enfranchisement of boys above the age of eighteen years. The current of ideas and usages in our day, but especially in this country, seems already to set quite too strongly in favor of the relaxation, if not total overthrow of parental authority, especially over half-grown boys. With the sincerest good will for the class in question, we submit that they may spend the hours which they can spare from their labors and their lessons more usefully and profitably in mastering the wisdom of the sages and philosophers who have elucidated the science of government, than in attendance on midnight caucuses or in wrangling around the polls. The proposition that a tax should be assessed on and collected from voters, is commended, like some others by plausible analogies. The rightful and intimate connection between taxation and Representation was a potent watchword of our Revolutionary fathers; yet we cannot ignore the fact that the Constitution of 1821 having like its predecessors, embodied this principle, an amendment striking out this qualification and thus establishing manhood suffrage, was adopted by the Legislature of 1825, and ratified by an overwhelming popular vote in 1826; yeas, 127,077; nays, 3,215. We do not feel called upon to appeal from their judgment. Nor have we chosen to adopt any of the schemes of disfranchising illiterate persons which have been referred to us. We freely admit that ignorance is a public evil and peril, as well as a personal misfortune, and we are ready to march abreast with the foremost in limiting its baleful influence. But men's relative capacity is not absolutely measured by their literary acquirements; and the State requires the illiterate, equally with others, to be taxed for her support, and to shed their blood in her defense. We prefer that she shall persist in her noble efforts to instruct and enlighten all her sons by means less invidious and more genial than disfranchisement. Were there no other consideration impelling to this decision, we should rest on and defer to the forcible truths, that ability to read and write is not absolute, but comparative; that inspectors of election are fallible and swtayed by like passions with other men-and that they might be tempted, in an exciting and closely contested election, to regard with a partial fondness, almost parental, the literary acquirements of those claimants of the franchise who were notoriously desirous of voting the ticket of those inspectors' own party, while applying a far sterner and more critical rule to those who should proffer the opposite ballots. Our present Constitution authorizes the Legislature to pass laws designed to ascertain, by proper proofs, the persons entitled to exercise the right of suffrage. We recommend that those laws shall provide for a registration of all the legal voters, to be completed at least six days before each State election, and that none other than registered electors shall vote. Your committee are confident that the experience of our State and of the civilized world, fully justifies these requirements. Unless the ballot-box is to be regarded and treated as a spittoon, no person should be allowed to vote whose right to do so is not fully ascertained and unquestionable. In arural neighborhood, where every one who approaches the ballot-box is known to dozens of either party, the frauds of unregistered voting may be mainly confined to those districts where the ascendency of one party is practically unchecked; but in any densely peopled districts where hundreds offer to vote who are known only to their few cronies, the case is totally different. Not to register the names of the voters, so as to give time for deliberate and general scrutiny, not merely by the few who may chance to be present when a particular vote is tendered, is to stimulate knavery and offer a premium on fraud. It is to proclaim the right of suffrage worthless and proffer to each vagrant or felon half a dozen votes at every election which he may condescend to patronize. To uphold a registration of deeds, yet oppose a registration of voters, is virtually to assert a higher value, a more precious importance in our lands than in our liberties. Doubtless some frauds will be committed where suffrage is so nearly universal, no matter what safeguards may be thrown around the elective franchise; but to maintain that registration, while it does afford protection to the titles whereby we hold our lands. will give none to our right of suffrage is to defy reason and insult our common sense. Your committee would urge that this precious right, so fundamental to all others, be carefully shielded from corruption, and that the main safeguards against its abuse should not be left to unstable and fluctuating statutes, but should be firmly imbedded in the Constitution. Your committee, having thus fulfilled the duty imposed on them, ask to be discharged from the further consideration of the memorials referred to them, and that these, with this report, be committed to a Committee of the Whole. ALBANY. June 28th, 1867. HORACE GREELEY, Chairman, LESLIE W. RUSSELL. WM. H. MERRILL, GEO. WILLIAMS. Mr. J. BROOKS -Before the question is put upon the printing of this report, I would like to ask one or two questions. The PRESIDENT -The Chair would inform the gentleman from New York [Mr. Brooks], that the report will be printed under the rules. Mr. CASSIDY, from the same committee, submitted a minority report, as follows: The undersigned, while cordially concurring in many of the objects sought to be accomplished by the majority of the committee of which they are members, differ as to several of the conclusions reached by them. The undersigned would prefer to preserve, as far as possible, the language of the existing Constitution, on the subject of the elective franchise, to which usage and the decisions of the courts have given definite interpretations. They would prefer, also, i,, I,, | *, 180 to retain most of the provisions of the present be respected by all when it is equal in its require. article in regard to the pre-requisites of residence, ments in regard to all. etc., and especially that which exacts of a nat- As respects the extension of suffrage to colored uralized citizen that he shall have perfected his the same as to white citizens of the State, the citizenship ten days before election, instead of re- undersigned submit that if the regeneration quiring, as the article proposed by the committee of political society is to be sought in the indoes, a term of thirty days. corporation of this element into the constituThe inevitable effect of the change is to deprivo ency, it must be done by the direct and explicit of their votes, in the elections of 1868 and 1869, all vote of the electors. We are foreclosed from that numerous class, who on the faith of existing any other course by the repeated action of the regulations, may have declared their purpose to State. In 1846 this question was submitted become citizens, on or about the tenth day, ante- in a separate article to be voted on, at the cedent to the elections of 1866 and 1867, and who same time with the Constitution itself; and was expected to perfect their citizenship in the pre- negatived by a vote of 223,884 to 85,306. It scribed two years from that date. If the change was again submitted in 1850, and was again shall thus operate to the disfranchisement of defeated by a vote of 337,984 to 197,503. A many thousand citizens, in two important similar submission was provided by a concurrent elections, one of which involves a contest for the resolution of the Legislature of 1859, which, by Presidency of these United States, that injustice the neglect of the State officers to provide for its will more than counterbalance any supposed good publication, was defeated; but its fate may to be attained by the change. The ten days fairly be regarded as further evidence of the interposed by the Constitution of 1846 give ample indifference of the public toward a change. time for the inspection of the registry, and of the The undersigned are of opinion that the Conrolls of the courts; and afford all the opportunity vention will depart from its representative charthat either party may need to take measures acter if, after these repeated manifestations of the against the parties to a fraud. Let us not corn- popular will, it should enact this extention of the mence the work of reforming our Constitution by suffrage without such a separate submission. practically disfranchising so large a class of our It would be unfair to the people to declare: most useful citizens. that, whereas, they have again and again The provision which makes the giving or the refused to accept this change, therefore we taking of a bribe a ground of challenge and a dis- will incorporate it into the Constitution and qualification to vote, though it may exclude many compel them either to reject that instrument, from the suffrage, is liable to no such objection. or to accept this measure. If the reform is It aims at a great and growing evil and it strikes an organic one, and if other changes in our only at the criminal. Corruption is the leprosy political system involve this also; and if, of political society, and the taint is infectious. The under new influences, popular opinion has been venality of the elector is the source of the corruption modified, let us meet the question and decide it of the official. The representative who secures his upon its simple merits. To make it dependent seat by the expenditure of money only reimburses upon the fate of financial articles or of changes himself for his outlay, when he sells his vote or in the judicial structure, or of innovations of doubtbarters his legislative influence. No penal enact- ful popularity, would be unjust to the class who ment has yet sufficed to check this evil; but in solicit this extension of privileges. To force making it a ground of challenge at the polls, we its acceptance against the convictions of the call the vigilance of parties to our aid; diminish main body of the constituency, by relaxing their temptation to corrupt practices; and find in severe but just restrictions upon delegated power, their mutural rivalries the machinery of a self- or by concessions to local or monied interests, executing law. would be an obvious wrong of which this body While the undersigned believe that all registry could not be consciously guilty. laws are expensive, vexatious and onerous, more The submission of the question by itself is so often depriving the honest voter of a right than direct and honest, as to tend to disarm the jealousy closing the opportunity of fraud against a dis- with which this question has been regarded by honest one, and while the history of political the people. It is without embarresment or difficontests, shows that they have served, as the culty in practice, and whether the mode.of sepaagency for many of the great conspiracies rate submission be extended to other articles or against the elective franchise; yet they regard not, the popular will may be consulted in regard the provision of the Committee "that all such this without trouble or expense. laws shall be uniform in their requirements in For the sake, therefore, of disembarrassing every part of the State," as a compensation for the Convention from the further consideration of many of the evils of the system, and a most val- this subject, and of relieving the wise and uable safeguard against abuse. It will effectually salutary reforms to be secured by the Revised prevent the Legislature from imposing restrictions Constitution, from an unnecessary complication, upon one community and awarding license to an- the undersigned beg leave to offer the following other; and we shall no longer have to endure the resolution, as an amendment to the report of the existence of three or four separate systems of majority. election imposed on different parts of the State Resolved, That a proposition further to extend by the caprice or jealousy of sectional majorities. the elective franchise to colored men be submitIf a registration of voters is necessary before ted, to be voted on separately from the rest of election; let every citizen be made to conform to the Constitution. its requirements. The law will be more likely to As to the extension of suffrage to women, the 181 undersigned reserve, for the present, any expression of opinion. All of which is respecfully submitted. WILLIAM CASSIDY, JOHN G. SCHUMAKER. Mr. GREELEY -I was instructed by the Committee to move that the majority report be made a special order for Tuesday. I suppose this being the only report of the kind, it would naturally come up on that day, but I move that it be made the special order for Tuesday, July 9th, at 12 o'clock, M. Mr. WEED-My only objection to making this subject a special order for July 9th is this, that as I have learned, many of the members of this body wish to adjourn over and not hold sessions to-morrow or Monday, and then there would be no opportunity, on the part of the members of this body, to instruct themselves from the report made by the committee. They would have no opportunity to see it printed or have it placed upon our files. For that reason, it seems to me, it should not be made a special order on Tuesday. As the gentleman from Westchester [Mr. Greeley] has said, this being the only report of the kind, as a general order, it would come up on Tuesday, if printed, and the Convention vote to take it up; but if two-thirds of this body vote to make it a special order, it will require a two-thirds vote, at that time, to postpone it, whether a majority of the Convention wish to take it up or not. Mr. MERRITT -This Convention has already ordered the printing of the proceedings and debates in the daily newspaper to be laid upon our desks, and the objection of the gentleman from Clinton [Mr. Weed], is entirely obviated, as we shall have both the report of the majority and minority before us. Mr. GREELEY - The committee had no particular choice about this matter. I supposed the Convention might have some choice as to the day, but if the Convention choose to fix another time we shall agree to it. Mr. ALVORD - I am opposed to making this a special order, and it seems to me there is great force in the remarks made by the gentleman from Clinton [Mr. Weed]. In our, regular order of business to-morrow, if this report shall be laid upon our table, it comes up. Mr. MERRITT —I believe, sir, I have not yielded the floor. The PRESIDENT —The gentleman frotn St. Lawrence [Mr. Merritt] says he has not yielded the floor. The Chair supposed he had yielded and recognized the gentleman from Onondaga [Mr. Alvord]. Mr. MERRITT-This being the first report made from any standing Committee, and one of the most important which is to come before this body, it is very proper that we should all understand on what day it will be taken up for consideration. Resolutions, memorials and other business which is likely to corme before the Convention, can be presented at any time It is understood by this adjournment, which is to take place over the 4th of July, that the Convention will not come together until Monday or Tuesday of the next week. We may meet on Monday evening, but it is not probable we shall have a quorum. It is very important that we should understand this proposition. At whatever time this shall come up, I have no doubt that every member will desire to be present, if not to take part in the discussion, at least to hear the discussion, and be present to record his vote for or against the report. I hope, therefore, we shall make it a special order. Mr. ALVORD -I desire to continue my remarks but a very few moments longer. It is an impossibility in the position we now occupy-the probability being there will be hardly a quorum present in this Convention to-morrow, and we shall adjourn over unquestionably until Monday if not still farther-that we shall have this document in a printed form laid upon our tables so we can look over and examine it, between now and the 9th day of July. We should have it upon our tables to be enabled, if necessary to carry it home with us during the recess, so that we can look at and examine this question in reference to both these reports, and decide as to the manner in which this Convention should act. Under the rules, as they now exist, this being the only report of the kind from a standing committee it will come up as a matter of course in the general orders, and it will be then at the disposition of a majority of this Convention. Let it be so disposed of, and when we shall come together again on the 8th or 9th of July, I will go with any member of the Convention to set it down at the earliest practicable moment as a special order, in order that full notice can be given to members of the time when it will come up. Mr. LIVINGSTON moved to amend the motion by inserting "Wednesday, at 11 o'clock," instead of " Tuesday, at 12." Mr. GREELEY-I hope not, Mr. President. If the gentleman from Onondaga [Mr. Alvord] will move for an earlier day, I have no objection. I should not like to postpone the consideration of this report upon the idea that the Convention will be thin on Tuesday, as I think we have agreed to meet on Monday evening. If we set this down for Tuesday, we shall have a full session, if we put it off until Wednesday, it will be simply throwing away another day. I cannot accept the amendment of the gentleman from Kings [Mr. Livingston]. The question was then put upon the amendment of Mr. Livingston, and it was declared to be lost. The question then recurred upon the motion of Mr. Greeley. Which was lost by the following vote: Ayes-Messrs. A. F. Allen, N. M. Allen, Andrews, Archer, Axtell, Ballard. Barker, Bell, Bickford, E. A. Brown, Carpenter, Cassidy, Clinton, Cooke, Corbett, Curtis, C. C. Dwight, T. W. Dwight, Eddy, Ely, Endress, Farnum. Field, Flagler, Folger, Fowler, Francis, Frank, Fuller, Garvin, Goodrich, Gould, Grant, Graves, Greeley, Hadley, Hale, Hammond, Hand,, Hitchcock, Houston, Huntington, Ketcham, Kinney, Landon, Lapham, A. Lawrence, M. H. Lawrence, Lee, Livingston, Ludington, Merrill, Merritt, Merwin, Miller, Monell, Murphy, C. E. Parker, President, Prindle, Presser, Rathbun, Reynolds, Root, Roy, L. W. Russell, Schumaker, Seaver, Silvester, 182 Sheldon, Smith, Stratton, M. I. Townsend, Van Campen, Van Cott, Wakeman, Wales, Williams78. Noes-Messrs. C. L. Allen, Alvord, Baker, Beckwith, Bergen, J. Brooks, Champlain, Chesebro, Church, Cochran, Colahan, Conger, Daly, Ferry, Gerry, Hardenburgh, Hitchman, Jarvis, Kernan, Larremore, Law, A. R. Lawrence, Mattice, More, Morris, Nelson, Paige, A. J. Parker, Potter, Robertson, Rumsey, Schell, Schoonmaker, Seymour, Spencer, Strong, Tappen, Tilden, S. Townsend, Tucker, Veeder, Weed, Wickham-43. Mr. FOLGER, from the Committee on the Judiciary, submitted the following report: The standing Committee on the Judiciary reports that it has had under consideration the resolution referred to it in relation to certain information from clerks of courts, and have amended the same so as to read as follows: Resolved, That the Secretary of the Convention request, by circular addressed to the clerk of each county in the State; the clerk of the Court of Common Pleas, in the city and county of New York; the clerk of the Superior Court, in the city and county of New York; the clerk of the Superior Court, in the city of Buffalo; the clerk of the City Court of the city of Brooklyn, and of any other city; the clerk of any recorder's court; the clerk of any mayor's court; the clerk of the court of General Sesssions in the city and county of New York; the clerk of the court of Oyer and Terminer of the city and county of New York; the clerk of the Marine court of the city and county of New York; that such clerks respectively report to this Convention, as speedily as practicable, how many causes were on the calendar of the court or courts of which he is the clerk, at the terms thereof for the year ending January 1st, 1867, and what was the oldest and what was the youngest date of issue thereof, (including therein the calendar of the general term, the special term, and the circuit or trial term, if such term there be); and at such terms how many causes were argued; how many were submitted, and in courts where there are trials and references, how many were tried and how many were referred, and in the case of the clerk of a criminal court, how many indictments were pending at the last term thereof, and how many were tried or otherwise and in what manner disposed of. And as amended the committee recommend the adoption of the resolution. The question was then put on the resolution as reported by the committee, and it was declared adopted. Mr. SEAVER, from the Committee on Printing, submitted the following report: ALBANY, JUNE 28, 1867. Your Committee to whom was referred the following resolution, to wit: "Resolved, That twice the usual number of copies of the Constitution, with notes and references, be printed for the use of the Convention "Respectfully recommend that the said resolution be agreed to, and that copies thereof, as fast as printed, be placed upon the files of this Convention. J. J. SEAVER, Chairman. Mr. GREELEY-I would inquire of the chairman of the committee [Mr. Seaver], how many the resolution calls for? Mr. SEAVER — Sixteen hundred. The question was then put on the resolution reported by the committee, and it was declared adopted. Mr. SEAVER, from the Committee on Printing, submitted the following further report. ALBANY, JUNE 28, 1867. The Committee on Printing, to whom was referred the subject of the compensation of the Stenographer to the Convention, respectfully report. That after due consideration of the subject, your committee are of opinion that the fairest and most equitable plan of compensation is to pay the Stenographer a stipulated sum for a given amount of work, and your committee would, therefore, recommend the adoption of the following resolution: Resolved, That the compensation of the stenographer to this Convention be fixed at five dollars per page of the printed proceedings and debates of this Convention, as the same are now printed and placed upon the files of members; such compensation to include and cover all the expenses of assistant stenographers and clerks that may be employed by the said stenographer in the performance of any and all of his duties as stenographer to this Convention. J. J. SEAVER, Chairman. Mr. KERNAN - I would like to inquire of the chairman of the committee, about what per diem, that will give each man employed. Mr. SEAVER —I think Mr. President, that will give the Stenographer a per diem of about twenty dollars per day, though reckoning our labors to proceed as they have lor the last three or four weeks it will afford him but little or no compensation; it will give his principal assistant whom he has employed, one hundred dollars per week; another sixty dollars; another twenty-five dollars; another eighteen dollars; another, twelve dollars per week. I have consulted with persons who are familiar with the employment of stenographers and who may perhaps be called experts in judging what would be a fair compensation for persons engaged in that business, and I am informed that the compensation proposed by the committee is no-more than just and fair for the service required. There is one thing further, Mr. President; this Convention has been in the habit of adjourning from Friday until Monday or Tuesday, and we may presume, judging from the temper of the Convention heretofore manifested, that it will hereafter adjourn, very likely from Friday till Monday, for most of the session; that seems to be the feeling, though we may be driven to a greater amount of effort, and greater labor during the remainder of the session, after the recess to be taken to celebrate the 4th of July, and thus avoid such long adjournments. But it must be borne in mind that, while the Convention is thus adjourning, the stenographer. has to remain here, and also keep his force of assistants under pay, so as to command their services whenever the Convention returns to its duties. -I, * 4. 't * J. I I r,r,. -i 183 They have to be paid constantly for their time, of time and money in the trial of these trivial else they will go where they will obtain steady cases, greatly tend to prevent parties aggrieved employment. from any attempt to redress their wrongs, and Mr. KERNAN —I have not sufficient know- preserve the peace and good order of society, by ledge on this subject to form a very valuable the punishment of this large class of offenders, judgment, even for myself. But it occurred to me thus giving to them immunity in the commission that the price per page suggested, when this Con- of crime, encouraging them in their evil practices veution may be engaged in debate, would make a and rendering them and their associates more very large compensation. I wish that these gentle. daring and dangerous; and men should be compensated fairly and fully in ac- WHEREAS, The number of these offenses is so cordance with what they would earn in their voca- great as to make it impossible for courts of record tion anywhere. I should judge, myself, that if they to try them, even if the complaining parties had were paid a fair compensation by the day, in- the means, practice and perseverance to make the eluding days when they were here, whether we necessary efforts; and were debating or not, it would probably be far WHEREAS, Prompt and certain punishment is more economical, while it would be just to their the only sure way to prevent crime and protect interests and to the State. the citizen in his rights, therefore, The question was then put on the resolution Resolved, That the Judiciary Committee inquire reported by the committee, and it was declared into the propriety of embodying in the Constituadopted. tion a provision authorizing and empowering Mr. ALVORD-In the regular order of busi- Courts of Special Sessions throughout the State, ness, I rise for the purpose of offering a resolu- to try all persons charged with misdemeanors, tion relating to the government and order of the whether such persons elect to be so tried or not. Convention. Gentlemen of the Convention are Which was referred to the Committee on the aware that, under the terms of the law which Judiciary. authorizes our assembling here, the President of Mr. HALE offered the following resolution and the Convention has no authority or power to ap- moved its reference to the Committee on the point temporarily, for more than two days, a pre- Organization of the Legislature: siding officer of the Convention to occupy the Resolved, That the Committee on the Organizachair during his absence. They are also aware tion, etc., of the Legislature be requested to inquire that our presiding officer resides in a remote whether the advantages which in theory are portion of the State, and the two days named believed to result from a division of the Legislawould be more than exhausted in his going ture into two houses, would not be secured with to his residence and returning; so that, under more certainty by the adoption of a system, the the strict construction of the act, he would outlines of which should be substantially as folbe compelled to forego the privilege which lows, viz.: many of us have, of going to his home, and 1. Divide the electors of this State into two spending a portion of the time which might be classes; one called senatorial electors, and the necessary. Therefore, for the purpose of avoid- other assembly electors. The senatorial electors ing this trouble so far as he is concerned, and to be those who for the ten next preceding years to permit him to return to his home when it shall have been entitled to vote in the county may Decome necessary, I beg leave to offer the where they may offer their vote at any election. following resolution: The assembly electors to be all others entitled Resolved, That the Hon. Charles J. Folger be to vote. and he is hereby appointed President pro tern. of 2. Senators to be elected by the votes of this Convention, to preside over its deliberations senatorial electors only; members of assembly and perform all other duties of the President in his by the votes of assembly electors only; both necessary absence, and that the Secretary notify classes of electors, without distinction, to be the Comptroller of this appointment. entitled to vote for all other elective offices. The question was then put on the resolution of 3. Make it the duty of the Legislature to Mr. Alvord, and it was declared adopted. provide for ascertaining, by proper proofs, to Mr. FRANCIS offered the following preamble which of the above classes electors belong; and resolution, and moved its reference to the and also, at its first session after such enumeraCommittee on the Judiciary. tion (which shall be made once in ten years), to VWEREAS, All laws conferring powers on so adjust the number of years, mentioned in the Courts of Special Sessions, to try persons charged first subdivision above, that the number of with petty offenses, whether such persons elect to senatorial and assembly electors, shall be equal, be so tried or not, have been declared unconstitu- as nearly as may be. tional, by the highest courts of the State, and Which was referred to the Committee on the WHEIREAS, The necessity of first procuring an Organization of the Legislature. indictment in this class of offenses, and then pro- Mr. T. W. DWIGHT - I ask the unanimous ceeding to attend in a court of record, operates consent of the Convention to recur to the order of Oppressively on parties injured, and greatly to the memorials. prejudice of the public, in vexatious but unavoid- The PRESIDENT -There being no objection able delays, in the expenditure of money, in the memorial will be received. travel and other expenses while attending courts, Mr. T. W. DWIGHT —I would like to say a in the consumption of the time of parties, wit- word in reference to the memorial. It is a memonesses, courts and juries; and rial of the prison association of New York, prayWHEREAS, These delays and this consumption ing for an amendment to the Constitution relating 184 to the penal institutions in this State. The subject jurisdiction of any subject whenever jurisdiction has been before the committee of the association of the same has been given by law to the Boards specially charged with that subject for one or two of Supervisors or to the courts. years, and it has been the subject of correspond- Which was referred to the Committee on the ence with prison officers and authorities in other Powers and Duties of the Legislature. States, and is the result of a matured plan of the Mr. SILVESTER offered the following resolu. association. I ask, therefore, that the memorial tion: be read. Resolved, That it be referred to the appropriate The SECRETARY proceeded to read the memo- committee to inquire into the expediency of prorial. viding in the Constitution that any member of the During the reading Mr. SEYMOUR moved that Legislature who shall receive or accept of any the reading be dispensed with, and that it be money or valuable thing for his vote upon referred to the Committee on State Prisons. any measure, or who shall propose to enter into Which was lost. an agreement with any other member, that either The SECRETARY proceeded with the reading shall vote in a particular manner upon any measof the memorial to its conclusion. ure, if the other will vote in a particular manner The memorial was referred to the Committee on upon another measure, if such proposition shall State Prisons. be carried into effect, shall be punished by depriMr. BELL called for the consideration of the vation of the right to vote and hold office, but the resolution offered by him, requesting the Senate person who has offered or paid or delivered such committee appointed to investigate the manage- money or valuable thing, or who has assented to ment of the canals to furnish the Convention with such proposition for such exchange of votes, if a copy of the testimony taken before them. such proposition has been carried into effect, shall The SECRETARY proceeded to read the reso- not be liable to any penalty or punishment and lution as follows: shall be a competent and compellable witness, Resolved, That the Senate committee charged unless upon the trial of the member who has with the duty of inquiring into the management accepted such money or valuable thing, or who has of the canals of this State, the departments made such proposition. thereof, etc., be respectfully requested to furnish Mr. SILVESTER —I ask that the resolution this Convention with a copy of the testimony be referred to the Select Committee of Five on thus far taken on that subject, for the informa- the subject of Official.Corruption. tion of the Committee on Canals. Which reference was ordered, there being no The question was then put on the resolution, objection thereto. and it was declared adopted. Mr. BELL - When I called up the resolution Mr. VEEDER offered the following resolution: requesting the Senate committee to investigate Resolved, That the Committee on the Preamble the management of the canals, to furnish a and the Bill of Rights be respectfully requested copy of the testimony taken before them, I to consider the propriety of reporting an amend- neglected to include in my motion to adopt ment to the second section of article one of the the resolution, a further proposition that the Constitution, so that the same shall read as fol- testimony, when furnished, be referred to the lows: Committee on Canals. I now ask unanimous SEC. 2. The trial by jury in all cases shall consent to make a motion that that reference be remain inviolate forever; but a jury trial may be made. waived by the consent of all the parties in all There being no objection the reference was civil cases, in the manner to be prescribed by ordered. law; but no trial shall be had without a jury iu Mr. GOULD-Since we passed the order of any criminal case whatever, except by the volun- communications I have received a communication tary and express consent of the prisoner, from Dr. Francis Lieber, of New York, on the Which was referred to the Committee on the subject of requiring unanimity among jurors. It Preamble and the Bill of Rights. contains so many references to history that are not Mr. VAN CAMPEN-I hold in my hand a res- generally accessible. and which it is desirable olution to provide for the establishment of a should be preserved, I desire that the whole Bureau of Statistics, and especially for the regis- document be spread upon our journal and be tration of births, marriages and deaths. printed, and that the communication be referred The SECRETARY proceeded to read the reso- to the Committee on the Judiciary. lution as follows: Mr. RUMSEY moved that the communication Resolved, That the Committee on Secretary of be referred to the Committee on Printing. State, Comptroller, etc., be requested to inquire Which was carried. into the expediency of establishing a Bureau of Mr. BICKFORD offered the following resoluStatistics, under the charge of the Secretary of tion: State, especially providing for an efficient system Resolved, That it be referred to the Committee of registration of births, marriages and deaths. on the Pardoning Power, to inquire as to the Which was referred to the Committee on the expediency and propriety of conferring a portion Secretary of State, Comptroller, etc. of the pardoning power, in cases of offenses below Mr. MILLER offered the following resolution: the grade of felony, on some county officer or Resolved, That the Committee on the Powers officers. and Duties of the Legislature be instructed to Also, that the said committee inquire what inquire into the expediency of reporting a Consti- constitutional provision can, with propriety, be tutional provision, taking from the Legislature, made, to prevent the practical exercise of the par 185 doning power by indirection, by officers and persons not vested therewith-as for instance, by the Legislature, under pretense of a general enactment, as was done in the case of Mary Hartung, who escaped the punishment of death and all other punishment, for the murder of her husband, through an act of the Legislature, after the most persistent, yet unsuccessful applications to the Governor for pardon, or for the commutation of her sentence-by members of the Legislature, who knowing of corrupt practices by other members, or by lobby agents, neglect to expose the guilty, and bring them to punishment, through a mistaken notion of being merciful, or from notions still worse-by Grand Juries who refuse to indict criminals clearly proved to be such, for the improper plea that they are saving the county from expense of a trial, or because they have an unfavorable opinion of the law which has been violatedby the courts charged with the trial of criminals, and by judges of the courts in discharging offenders on their own recognizances, admitting to bail on easy terms, putting over trials until the testimony of witnesses necessary to convict cannot be obtained, suspending sentence indefinitely, and otherwise —by district attorneys in entering a nolle prosequi, and otherwise neglecting to do their utmost to punish criminals according to law —by magistrates having jurisdiction to issue warrants for the arrest, examination and commitment of offenders, in declining or seeming unwilling to entertain complaints, letting offenders to bail for trifling sums, and otherwise —by constables, police officers, sheriffs and others in permittting criminals to escape; and by individuals in compromising and settling with offenders, sometimes with, and sometimes without, the connivance of magistrates and other officers charged with the duty of bringing criminals to justice, a prominent instance of which has been recently brought to public attention in the case of the Lord bond robbery and the recovery of the stolen bonds at a cost of $120,000 paid to thieves and detectives, accompanied, as is believed, with an understanding that there was too be no prosecution for the robbery. Which was referred to the Committee on the Pardoning Power. Mr. SC[HOONMAKER - Not to be entirely out of the fashion, I offer the following resolution: The SECRETARY proceeded to read the resolution, as follows: Resolved, That it be referred to the Standing Committee on the Powers and Duties of the Legislature, to inquire into the expediency of introducing into the Constitution a provision substantially as follows: "The Legislature shall not grant or authorize extra compensation to any contractor after the services shall have been rendered, or the contracts entered into." Which was referred to the Committee on the Powers and Duties of the Legislature. Mr. WEED offered the following resolution: Resolved, That it be referred to the Committee on the Judiciary to consider and report upon the proprietv of providing, by constitutional provisions, that no fee or charge shall be imposed upon suitors in the surrogates' courts of this State. 24 Which was referred to the Committee on the Judiciary. Mr. S. TO WNSEND offered the following resolution: Resolztd, That as a provision proper for insertion in the Constitution, be referred to the Committee on the Preamble and Bill of Rights the following proposition: Remedies existing at the period when a contract is made, shall not be disturbed or impaired by subsequent legislation. Which was referred to the Committee on the Preamble and Bill of Rights. Mr. BAKER-I call up for consideration a resolution offered by me the 19th inst., asking for information. The SECRETARY proceeded to read the resolution as follows: Resolved, That the Comptroller of this State be requested, at as early a day as practicable, to report to this Convention the whole amount of moneys appropriated by the Legislature of this State, and paid by the Comptroller, to the several local private institutions, called charitable institutions, not chartered by the Legislature, from 1857 to 1867, both inclusive, giving the name and location of each institution so receiving such appropriation, and the amount received in each year during the time aforesaid. Mr. BAKER-At the suggestion of several members, I desire, if in order, to offer a substitute for the original resolution: The SECRETARY proceeded to read the substitute as follows: Resolved, That the Comptroller of this State be requested, at as early a day as practicable, to report to this Convention, the whole amount of moneys appropriated by the Legislature, and paid by the Comptroller to the several public and private, religious, -educational and charitable institutions of this State-specifying as far as practicable, those chartered by special act of the Legislature-those incorporated under the general act enabling such incorporation, and those not chartered. Stating the place where each of such institutions is located, with the amount of moneys so paid to each of said institutions, in each year from 1847 to 1867, inclusive. The question was then put on the substitute to the original resolution, and it was declared carried. The question then recurred on the original resotion as amended by the substitute, and it was declared adopted. Mr. STRATTON-Day before yesterday, I presented a communication from Mr. H. B. Wilson, which was, upon my motion, laid on the table. I now move to take the communication from the table, and that it be referred to the Select Committee on the subject of suppressing official corruption. The PRESIDENT- The communication not having been laid on the table by a vote, it is not necessary that a vote be taken to call it up. There being no objection the reference suggested was ordered. Mr. BICKFORD offered the fillowing preamble and resolution: WHEREAS, The functions of juries, especially 186 of grand juries and juries in courts of record, are most important, and it is essential to the due administration of justice that juries be composed of intelligent and honest men; and, WHEREAS, 'Many complaints are made of the manner in which the making up of jury lists has been of late practiced: Resolved, That it be referred to the Committee on the Judiciary to inquire whether any, and if any, what provision should be placed in the Constitution in regard to the making up of the list of persons from which juries are to be drawn; and that they consider the following plan, among others: Let the board of supervisors of the county annually prescribe the number of jurymen to be placed on the lists, and apportion the number among the towns and wards of cities in proportion to population. Then let each elector in the town or ward, at the annual election in November, vote for such a number of the jurymen apportioned to the town or ward, as shall be the smallest number which is more than one-half of the number to be elected; and let the person havthe greatest number of votes, to the extent of the number apportioned to the town or ward, be declared elected, and the person so elected to form the list of jurymen for the year. Which was referred to the Committee on the Judiciary. Mr. J. BROOKS-I rise, Mr. President, to ask for a leave of absence, the duration of which I am not able to state, because I am called to another sphere of duty. I do not know whether I shall be there occupied for two weeks or the remaining portion of two years. I ask also to be excused from serving upon two committees, to which you have done me the honor to appoint me, in order that the places thus vacated may be filled by the appointment of others in my stead. I will also state, while I am up, that I should resign my seat here but for two reasons; one is the uncertainty as to the time I shall be absent, and the other is that a resignation would subject the city of New York to a very large expense, to hold another election, which might be unnecessary, as I may be able to return to my duties here in a short time. The question was put on the motion to grant leave of absence to Mr. J. Brooks and it was declared carried. The question was then put on the motion to discharge Mr. J. Brooks from serving on the committee of which he was a member and it was declared carried. On motion of Mr. SCHOONMAKER, the Convention adjourned. SATURDAY, JUNE 29, 1867. The Convention met at 11 o'clock A. M. The President pro tem.. Mr. Folger in the Chair. Prayer was offered by Rev. DEXTER E. CLAPP. The Journal of yesterday was read by the SECRETARY; no objection being made thereto it was declared approved. Mr. WEED moved for a leave of absence for Mr. George M. Beckwith until Wednesday next. There being no objection the leave of absence was granted. Mr. RUMSE Y-I move that when this Con. vention adjourns, it adjourn to meet on Wednesday next. Mr. COOKE - I move to amend the resolution by striking out " Wednesday " and inserting Monday evening at half-past seven o'clock. Mr. C. L. ALLEN -I move to amend it sq it will read, that when this Convention adjourns it adjourn to meet on Tuesday the 9th of July. Mr. RUMSEY- Is it in order to make a motion of that kind, there being a resolution passed that when this Convention adjourns on Wednesday next, it adjourn to meet oa the 8th of July. My motion was made with reference to the order which was previously made by the Convention. Mr. C. L. ALLEN -I wish to avoid all unnecessary implications and reflections upon this Convention. We are charged with evading the law by adjourning from day to day, for the purpose of drawing our per diem allowance. I presume that no such idea exists in the mind of any member of this Convention. It is perfectly clear that we shall not have a quorum to do business until after the recess, and we may as well adjourn first as last, and I think we can override this motion, or at least virtually reconsider it, by adopting the amendment which I have submitted to the consideration of the Convention, as we will only meet from day to day without a quorum Mr. RUMSEY -I accept the amendment of the gentleman from Washington [Mr. C. L. Allen] if it is in order. The PRESIDENT pro ten.- The Chair is of opinion that it is in order, as the greater includes the less. Mr. AXTELL — I rise to a point of order. I believe there is not a quorum of the members present this morning. The PRESIDENT pro ten — The Chair is not informed of that fact officially. Mr. WEED -I trust the gentleman from Clinton [Mr. Axtell], will not insist on ascertaining that question, because certainly there should be no desire on his part to prevent the few members who remain here, from leaving after all the rest are gone. Mr. RATHBUN - I hope the gentleman from Washington [Mr. C. L. Allen], will modify his motion so as to make it Monday, July 8th, at halfpast seven p. A. I think it would be much more likely to be satisfactory to those who are gone as well as those who are here. I am in favor of his proposition with that modification. Mr. C. L. ALLEN-I have no particular objection to say Monday evening, at 71 o'clock P. M., except that every gentleman will take it for granted that means Tuesday morning, and we may as well say Tuesday at once, then all will be able to attend. That is the reason I suggested Tuesday, at 7J o'clock, instead of Monday. Mr. BICKFORD -I think there is no quorum present this morning. When the resolution was taken the other day to adjourn over from Wednesday until the next Monday, there was a very full attendance. Although the persons who may be present this morning, may see fit to adopt a longer adjournment, [ submit it is not exactly 187 fair to those gentlemen who are not here this morning, that we do now in their absence take a longer adjournment, further than was contemplated by the Convention when there was a full attendance. I, therefore, think it would be best to insist upon the point of order, and as there is no quorum present, that we should adjourn from day to day. I cannot vote for an adjournment until Wednesday next. I think it better tot ascertain the fact that there is no quorum present. Mr. C. L. ALLEN - I understood the President to decide that the point of order was not well taken. The PRESIDENT pro tern. - The Chair is not informed officially that there is no quorum present. Mr. HALE - I do not agree with my friend from Jefferson [Mr. Bickford], in saying it is unfair to those who are absent, if there is an adjournment for a week. I think, on the other hand, if there is any unfairness, it is on the part of those members of this Convention who, having voted that the Convention should remain in session until Wednesday, and then adjourn until Monday, have thought it proper to run away and leave us. The number of those present, as is obvious, is quite small. It is pretty obvious, too, to all of us that nothing will be done in this Convention next week. I submit that it is altogether more proper for us now to adjourn for a week, knowing, as we do, that nothing will be done within a week, than it is to adjourn until next Wednesday, and from that time until Monday. I hope, therefore, the resolution as amended by the gentleman from Washington [Mr. C. L. Allen] will prevail, and that we shall adjourn now either until Monday evening or Tuesday. I do not know that I have any choice in regard to that, though I think most of us will not be able to get here until Tuesday. Mr. WEED- I fully concur in what the gentleman from Essex [Mr. Hale] has said, with reference to our duty toward those who voted not to adjourn over the 4th of July, until next Wednesday. It seems to me that it is our duty-believing as I do that there will not be a quorum present in this Convention before the 8th or 9th of July-to adjourn over until the 8th of July, and instead of it being a duty and an obligation toward those who voted not to adjourn, that we are in common justice bound to adjourn over, so as to deprive them of their pay from now until next Wednesday, they having voted not to adjourn and then having gone home and left us without a quorum. I suggest to the gentleman from Jefferson [Mr. Bickford], that if he will look over the list of those who voted not to adjourn, he will find that more than one-half of them have left, and the great bulk of them left with the intention of not returning until the 9th. Mr. BJICKFORD-It is perfectly obvious to the gentleman from Clinton, [Mr. Weed], as well as to Other gentlemen, that there is no quorum present here to-day, and inasmuch as we have been charged withl doing things by indirection, let us not do any business that we do not want to have seen Plaily before the world. It seems to me, with all respect to those who favor this proposition to adjourn over, that we cannot adopt any motion to do away with the action of the Convention when it was full. I submit that we should not, if it is obvious there is no quorum present, take any action which we could not take if the absence of a quorum was officially shown. Mr. WEED-We can take the action if there is no call of the house. Mr. BICKFORD-As long as there is no quorum present, all we can do is to adjourn from day to day; and I shall deem it my duty to move for a call of the house if this motion is insisted on. Mr. COOKE —I am one of those members, whose name appears on the list among those who voted not to adjourn over until next week, and I rise simply to say, that I was not influenced by the motives which have been imputed, by indirection, to those who voted with me, namely, that we might save our per diem pay. I voted in that way simply to keep this Convention here in working order. I felt as though we had no time to waste, and that we ought to make use of all the time that was possible, and I have made this amendment for the purpose of continuing business. I can understand there are many things that may be done by the members of the Convention, much of the committee business may be continued, many of the members of important committees are here, and can continue their work. I have no doubt there will be a quorum here on Monday or Tuesday at any rate, and the object of my amendment is to save two days' labor of this Convention. Mr. ALVORD-I do not desire to enter into this debate,except for a single purpose-to explain, if necessary, the position which I occupy, in reference to my action on the original proposition, and to my amendment not to adjourn till Wednesday. I have heard it intimated, upon the part of members of this Convention, that the motive of some, was to avoid the loss of their per diem. I voted for the proposition, as amended in the manner I suggested, with the perfect knowledge, that we must of necessity lose the per diem under the amendment. I know that the Comptroller of the State, rules, and rules correctly, that although the 4th of July is a legal holiday under the laws, yet so is Sunday a legal holiday, and as we are paid for Sundays, although we do not sit in convention on Sunday, therefore he counts the 4th of July as well as Sunday, in the calculation of the three days. So that the adjournment from Wednesday over until the succeeding Monday, carries with it, under the law as it exists, the loss of the per diem, for the four days for which we would have adjourned according to my amendment of the original proposition. I offered the amendment for the purpose of endeavoring to get this Convention to keep together during so much of the time that we have between now and the election next Fall, as possible, in order to complete our labors. We have of necessity a very large amount of work to do and perform, which we cannot avoid, even if at the end of our work we shall have come to the conclusion to make very little alteration in the Constitution as it now stands. It requires time-it requires a vast amount of time and labor; and if we do not go to work and apply more of that time and labor between now and then, than we have for the four 188 weeks we have been here together, we cannot, by any possibility, get through and perform any portion of our business. But I see the position in which we are situated to-day. I see many of the gentlemen of the Convention who voted for my amendment are absent. I leave it to them to make their own excuse for their absence. They have compelled us under the circumstances to submit to what they, perhaps, did not think of, when they voted for my amendment. Mr. C. L. ALLEN- I rise for the purpose of making an explanation in reference to some remarks which fell from my friend from Ulster [Mr. Cooke]. I hope he did not imagine that I intended to throw out any intimation upon the members of this ConventionMr. COOKE - Certainly not. Mr. C. L. ALLEN-I hope he did not think, when I spoke of intimations which had been thrown out, that when we voted not to adjourn, it was done by some with a view of evading the law and of saving our per diem allowance, that I intended to include or to allude to any member of this Convention. Mr. COOKE-If the gentleman from Washington [Mr. C. L. Allen] will allow me. I did not intend to allude to anything which was said by him. I alluded more particularly to what was thrown out the other day in the discussion on the motion of the gentleman from Onondaga [Mr. Alvord]. Mr. C. L. ALLEN-In reference to the remarks of my friend from Onondaga [Mr. Alvord], I understood him to say, he has no doubt but we shall lose our per diem allowance (notwithstanding the Comptroller might give a diferent construction to the law), after we adjourn next Wednesday. But suppose we adjourn, as is proposed. from now till Wednesday, which is three days, then the per diem allowance will be claimed, and will be allowed, and then when we come to adjourn on Wednesday, the per diem would probably be disallowed from that day. I propose that we adjourn now, until the 8th or 9th of July, I am not very particular which (onlyfor the reasons I have suggested, that some members will not be able to get here on the 8th), in order that no question can ever arise hereafter, or any ground for any imputation of this kind against members, one and all, as well those who are assembled here to day, as those who are absent. As we must be perfectly satisfied, all of us, that no business will be done here until after the recess, it would be idle for us to come here from day to day, sinply for the purpose of adjourning again. One word with regard to the remark made by the gentleman from Ulster [Mr. Cooke], that the committees might continue their business. We are all of us perfectly aware that a majority of the members of this body are already absent, and many of them I know, from their intentions as expressed to me last evening, do not intend to return until after the close of this recess, so that though there may be a minority of several committees here, yet what business can be transacted unless there is a quorum of each committee present? I undertake to affirm, as it is my sincere belief, that not a quorum of any committee of this body will remain here, between now and Wednesday, to transact any business, and in view of that, can it be the duty of the few members who are here, to remain from day to day without even the privilege of going before the committees to which they belong? I know, and perhaps other gentlemen may know, that several of the committees had a meeting yesterday or the day before, and they adjourned the further sessions of their committees to a day beyond the approaching recess so that of course these committees cannot assemble, and will not assemble, and gentlemen who are members of these committees have gone home, with a view of not returning here until after the recess. It was in view of these facts, I offered this amendment, and I hope it will be adopted. I will adopt the suggestion of my friend from Cayuga [Mr. Rathbun], and substitute Monday instead of Tuesday, if he thinks it will secure a more favorable consideration. Mr. BELL - I do not rise to explain my vote or to excuse any gentleman who has voted with me or differently from me, on the vote I have given with regard to an adjournment. But it will occur to every member of the Convention who will look at the number of the members present, that there must be, at least, less than one-third here, and the probability is, those absent will not return here until the 8th or 9th of July, andk although I am very desirous that the business which has called us together here, should be proceeded with, at least that the committees might meet and prepare business to present to the Convention on its re-assembling here, yet, practically, it will be of no use for us to adjourn from day to day until Wednesday, and from then until the time fixed, but we may as well, I think, adjourn from now until that day. I am therefore in favor of the motion now pending of the gentleman from Washington [Mr. C. L. Allen], to adjourn until 7 o'clock P. M., on the 8th of July. Mr. RUMSEY - I accepted the amendment of the gentleman from Washington [Mr. C. L. Allen], that the adjournment be until Monday the 8th, at 71 o'clock P. M. The PRESIDENT pro tem. - The Chair is of the opinion that there is another amendment intervening, so that it is not in the power of the gentleman to accept it. Mr. HADLEY -If it be in order, I move that this Convention now adjourn until the 8th of July. The PRESIDENT pro tem.-That is the motion already pending. Mr. HADLEY-My motion is that the Convention adjourn now. The motion of my friend is, when the Convention adjourns, it adjourn to meet on the 8th. The PRESIDENT pro temn. -The Chair is of opinion it is not in order, there being a motion to adjourn to a specified day, already pending. Mr. SEYMOUR —After the vote taken the other day, I think it is pretty clear that the members of the Convention who are now present, are here in the line of their duty. We have come here expecting to transact the proper business of the Convention, and I am in favor of the motion of the gentleman from Washington [Mr. C. L. Allen] as modified, 189 by adjourning until Monday evening next, which will be according to our custom, and which will also be in the line of our duty. I do not know that it is proper for us to conclude, without proof, that there will not be a quorum of the members of this Convention here at that time, and that we may not proceed on Tuesday or Wednesday with the transaction of business as usual. Hoping that it may be so, and I think we are bound to construe in the absence of proof that it is so, and knowing that it is in the line of the duty of this Convention so to do, I hope the motion may prevail. Mr. C. L. ALLEN — My motion is to adjourn until Monday evening, the 8th of July. Mr. SEYMOUR —I supposed it was next Monday. As it seems I was mistaken, I move as an amendment that we adjourn until Monday evening next, at 7- P. M., according to the usage of this Convention. Mr. WAKEMAN —I think that the gentleman from Rensselaer [Mr. Seymour], has misunderstood the amendment of the gentleman from Washington [Mr. C. L. Allen]. His amendment was to adjourn until Monday, the 8th of July, instead of next Monday. I am opposed to the amendment of the gentleman from Washington [Mr. C. L. Allen]. I steadily voted against all these long adjournments. It is true, sir, that gentlemen have left, and they probably will not be back, many of them, till after the recess; but I think, there will be a quorum here, at least, on Tuesday or Wednesday, and if there should not be, it will not be the fault of those gentlemen who have remained here to perform their duty. Mr. WEED -The gentleman [Mr. Wakeman], certainly understands that we are to have no session on Wednesday, for the resolution as passed by the Convention, provides that at 11~ o'clock, A. A., on Wednesday, we shall adjourn till the 9th of July. We may meet here on Wednesday, but we can do no more than read the Journal, before 11- o'clock, and then we shall be obliged to adjourn at once, so there can be no business done on that day. And if we adjourn till Monday, at 7~ o'clock, as there never has been a quorum yet on Monday evening, we shall only come together on Tuesday to do the business of the Convention, and very likely not have a quorum on that day. Mr. WAKEMAN -I understand sir, but yet I apprehend if the people of this State see that we have adjourned for an entire week, and more than that, for the purpose of celebrating one day, the anniversary of our National Independence, in addition to our former adjournments, they will think we are neglecting our duty. Heretofore, every Friday evening every man who lived within a short distance, where they could return home, has taken the liberty of going home, while members of the Convention living in a distant part of the State have been compelled to stay here, some of them even until now; therefore, I am opposed to long adjournments now as I have been heretofore, and as I trust I shall be in the future. Mr. CLINTON-I rise to a point of order, or rather, to make an inquiry, as I am not skilled in Parliamentary law. As I understand it, this Conventlon a day or two ago, resolved that it would hold a session on Wednesday nextand they would then adjourn over until Monday following. If that be so, I wish to inquire if any motion which provides for an adjournment now for a period beyond Wednesday, is in order until we have reconsidered the vote by which we determined to adjourn on Wednesday next. With reference to the matter of adjournment, I feel indifferent. I have no desire to signalize my zeal for labor. All I wish to sayis, I supposed it was the understanding of the Convention, when they adopted the resolution to which I refer, that we should be here to-day and on Monday and Tuesday at our post at work, and I think we should be here down to the hour fixed- for the adjournment, and unless there be a change, I shall live up, practically, to what I supposed was the understanding. The PRESIDENT pro tem.-Does the gentleman from Erie [Mr. Clinton] insist upon his point of order. Mr. CLINTON-I would like to get the opinion of the Chair. The PRESIDENT pro tem.-The information of the Chair is, i hat on Thursday the Convention resolved that it would, on Wednesday next, adjourn until Monday of the then subsequent week. The motion now is to adjourn from this day until Tuesday, the 9th day of July next. The Chair is of opinion that this motion is in order, for it does not seek to reverse the former action of the Convention, but really includes that action, in an adjournment of a- greater extent. This precise motion has not yet, so far as the Chair is informed, been negatived by the Convention. It is true that the Convention did refuse to adjourn from Friday of this week until Monday the 8th July, but it did not refuse to adjourn from this day to any future day. And as the termini of the adjournment proposed by this motion includes those of the motion once adopted by the Convention, and stated by the gentleman from Erie [Mr. Clinton], the Chair will hold that the point of order suggested by that gentleman is not well taken. Mr. HADLEY- I wish to ask if amendments are in order now? The PRESIDENT pro tern. - An amendment would not be in order now as there are two amendments pending. Mr. HADLEY- I understood that one amendment was accepted by the gentleman from Steuben [Mr. Rumsey]. The PRESIDENT pro tem. —The Chair held that the gentleman was not at liberty to accept it then. Mr. HADLEY - Then I move that this Convention adjourn until Monday evening at six o'clock. The PRESIDENT pro ter - The motion of the gentleman can hardly be entertained now, as there is already a motion to adjourn to a fixed day. A motion to adjourn is in order. Mr. HADLEY —Then I move that this Convention do now adjourn. The question was put on the motion of Mr. Hadley, and it was declared lost. Mr. MILLER-I am in favor of the motion of the gentleman from Ulster [Mr. Cooke], that when this Convention adjourns it adjourns to meet 190 on Monday, at half-past seven o'clock. I have noticed in the open meetings of this Convention that a large part of the business that has been transacted has been the offering of resolutions, containing suggestions to the various Committees of the Convention. I noticed that at our last meeting there was no dearth of resolutions and I suppose they have not all been offered yet. I would suggest that this business can be as well done without a quorum of the members being present; and as most of the committees have adjourned to have their final meetings when the Convention shall meet after the recess, these resolutions ought to be introduced in season to be referred to the committees before the 4th of July. I would suggest, therefore, that Monday, Tuesday and Wednesday can be very well employed for this purpose. As to the gentlemen who are absent, that, of course, is their business; they have undoubtedly good and reasonable excuses for their absence. Our business is to be here and to attend to our duty to-day, and the days of next week as well. Mr. AXTELL - I have steadily voted against long adjournments. I would have preferred that we had simply adjourned over the 4th of July, being under the impression that the 4th of July would survive, if the members of this honorable body were not present in their respective localities, to take part in the exercises on that day. I know it did survive when several hundred thousand men who are now scattered over the country were absent; there were no adjournments for the 4th of July when we were engaged in the business of putting down rebellion. As we are now serving the country, my impression has been all the way through, that we should proceed with our business, and I voted with the honorable gentleman from Onondaga [Mr. Alvord], on the understanding that we had little time enough to do the business which has been assigned to us, so the people may act intelligently upon it. It is by no means certain that we may not have a quorum present on Monday and Tuesday, and the usual business may be done. For these reasons I am in favor of the amendment proposed by the gentleman from Ulster [Mr. Cooke]. Mr. KRUM-I am in favor of the amendment of the gentleman from Ulster [Mr. Cooke], first, for the reason suggested by the gentleman from Delaware [Mr. Miller], and also for the further reason that a resolution was adopted one day this week providing that when this Convention adjourns on Wednesday it adjourns' at half-past eleven o'clock until the following Monday. When that resolution was adopted, it was adopted in full Convention. A large number of delegates elected to this Convention were then present, and the resolution was adopted understandingly. the major part, or a good many of the delegates are now away under the assumption, I have a right to assert, I think, that that resolution would remain the resolution of this body, and went away with the idea that they would return to this Convention on Monday next, at 71 o'clock. I do not know who, are authorized to say that there will not be a quorum of members present at 7~ o'clock on Monday. The gentlemen who are not here, left with the understanding that this Convention would stand adjourned until that time, and it is fair for us to infer that gentlemen intend to stand by the resolution adopted and be here at that time. For these reasons, and believing it is unfair to those that are away, and for the reason suggested by my friend from Delaware [Mr. Miller], I believe that this Convention when it adjourns this day, should adjourn in accordance with the terms of the resolution, until Monday evening at 7~ o'clock. Mr. WEED- In answer to the position taken by the gentleman from Delaware [Mr. Miller] and the gentleman from Schoharie [Mr. Krum] that Monday, Tuesday and Wednesday should be devoted to resolutions, I would suggest that from the fact that no resolutions have been introduced thus far, this morning, the resolution-ary members have gone, and they will not be back until after the 4th of July. Mr. MILLER -I think that there has been no opportunity to introduce resolutions, thus far, the question of adjournment having taken up the whole time. Mr. RATIBUN —I voted with the majority on the motion to adjourn on Wednesday next until the Monday following. I voted understandingly on my own part, and supposed it was so understood by the Convention, that no members would get any pay during the continuance of that adjournment. I voted for the adjournment with the expectation that this body would remain here and attend to the business of the Convention until Wednesday next. It is of no use for us to disguise the fact that we are here in a condition not very promising for the performance of hard labor. I have the greatest respect for the gentlemen who have gone away - and I do not desire to call them back until the time fixed by them to return, which was, when they left, the 8th or 9th of next month. I know a large number of them went away yesterday, beginning in the morning, and ending in the evening, and not one of all of them intimated any idea of returning until the 8th of July, and a good many of them were doubtful whether they would be able to get back then. It would be very pleasant if I were away, to have gentlemen stay here, hanging around the Capitol, meeting in the morning, and adjourning until the next day, so as to give me my six dollars a day while I am gone; whether I should feel that it was honestly obtained or not, is another ques. tion. But it is certain that it would be six dollars a day in my pocket, with no benefit to the State or to the people, and certainly not very creditable to the body who would continue their sessions without adjournment, and with out hoping to do business. We have been accused of fixing the time of our adjournments with the view to save our per diem compensation; but there are a good many gentlemen here, who voted for the adjourment, not believing that it would save them that compensation. I think if we vote in favor of the amendment offered by the gentleman from Washington, [Mr. C. L. Allen], we will relieve ourselves from any imputations that our former vote, to fix the adjournment from Wednesday next until Mon 191 day, was influenced by the motives that are attrib- by means of which it is ascertained that there is uted; that we did not intend to adjourn long enough no quorum present, is either to adjourn from day to lose the six dollars a day,and at the same time to day, until the time fixed by the Convention get rid of work. I am in favor of adjourning until shall come, on Wednesday next (when we shall Monday, the 8th at 7~ o'clock, and I will state adjourn as a matter of course, under the order of why. It may not be popular to say it, but I the Convention, until the succeeding Monday), expect to be all day on Monday the 8th, or sit here and have a call of the Convention, and riding through the dust and and sun paying my on that motion have the sergeant-at-arms get whole expenses to Albany, to attend the Con- enough members together so as to adjourn beyond vention. I expect to arrive here and appear on Wednesday, at 11 o'clock. With this explanation the floor of the Convention at T7i o'clock, and I withdraw the motion for a call of the Convenanswer to my name. And I expect pay for that tion. day, being engaged in the public business, travel- Mr. LAPHAM - There are two modes, as I ing two hundred miles to get to my place of busi- understand it, in which the fact that a quorum is ness, and answer to the roll call. I do not believe not present, can be ascertained; one is a call of that I am called upon to do that at my own ex- the roll, and the other is by taking the ayes and pense. I am compelled to go home and then I noes. Taking a vote by count, is no test whatever. am compelled to return to attend to my duties. Mr. C. C. DWIGHT - I rise to a'point of order. When I travel all day, and pay out as much for that there is no question before the Convention. travel as I receive, and attend a session, I do not The PRESIDENT pro tern - The point of order believe it is dishonest to ask that for that is well taken. expense, I shall be remunerated. If gentlemen Mr. WEED -I would like a leave of absence do not like it, they will vote down the proposition for myself until Wednesday. to meet on Monday, the 8th, at 71 o'clock, and I The PRESIDENT pro tern. - There is no quowill coincide with them in the vote; but I believe rum present to grant a leave of absence. it is just that we should adjourn until that time. Mr. ALVORD -I rise to a question of order I believe there will be a quorum on that day, and and privilege. I give notice that on Monday then the resolutions will be ready-the ponds next, immediately after the reading of the Journal, will be full, and they can be emptied again-and I shall move a call of the Convention. on Tuesday morning we can go to work. Mr. AXTELL-I move that this Convention The PRESIDENT pro ter. then announced do now adjourn. the question to be on the amendment of Mr. C. L. Mr. E. A. BROWN-I call for the ayes and Allen. and noes on the motion of the gentleman from Mr. SCHOONMAKER-I move that the Con- Clinton [Mr. Axtell]. vention do now adjourn. A sufficient number seconding the call, the ayes The question was then put on the motion of and noes were ordered. Mr. Schoonmaker, and it was declared lost. A Mr. McDONALD - I would like to know if this count being called for, it was taken, and the Convention can now adjourn, except from day to result declared: ayes, 14; noes, 25. day. The PRESIDENT pro tem.- The motion to ad- The PRESIDENT pro tem. - It cannot. journ is lost; there is no quorum present. The question was then put on the motion of Mr. HADLEY-I move that the Convention do Mr. Axtell to adjourn, and it was carried by the now adjourn. following vote: The question was put on the motion of Mr. Ayes - Messrs. Alvord, Andrews, Axtell, BickHadley, and it was declared lost. ford, E. A. Brown, Chesebro,Clinton, Cooke, Curtis, Mr. BICKFORD- How do we ascertain that C. C. Dwight, T. W. Dwight, Eddy, Field, Fowler, there is no quorum present?. Fuller, Goodrich, Gould, Kernan, Krum, Lapham, The PRESIDENT pro tern. - It was appar- Lee, Miller, More, Paige, C. E. Parker, Prindle, ent from the vote taken, that there was no Prosser, Rathbun, Rumsey, Schoonmaker, Seyquorum. mour, Wakeman-32 Mr. WEED-It was not ascertained that there Noes- Messrs. C. L. Allen, N. M. Allen, Baker, was no quorum present, but that there was no Bell, Cochran, Corning, Folger, Hadley. Hale, quorum voting. Huntington, McDonald, Root, Roy, Smith, Wales, The PRESIDENT, pro tem. —The Chair stated Weed -16. at the time, that there was no quorum present, So the Convention stood adjourned. which statement must be regarded, unless it was challenged at the time. Mr. FULLER -I rise to a point of order, that MoNDAY, JULY 1. it is necessary that there should be a quorum in The Convention met at 11 o'clock A. M., the order to adjourn. PRESIDENT pro tern., Mr. FOLGER, in the The PRESIDENT pro tern.-The motion to Chair. adjourn was lost. The Journal of Saturday was read by the SecMr. ALVORD - For the purpose of making an retary, and there being no objection thereto, it explanation to the members of the Convention, I was declared approved. Will make a motion for a call of the House, with the Mr. ALVORD -I gave notice on Saturday, on intention of withdrawing it, when I shall have con- a question of privilege, that, immediately after the cluded my remarks. The only way that we can reading of the Journal this day, I should move a get out of the dilemma in which we are call of this House, and I now, in pursuance of the o~w placed, by having a call or division, notice move a call of this Convention. I 192 understand, however, from gentlemen present here, that the probabilities are the call will not be seconded by the Convention, and under the circumstances attending our meeting, I beg leave to withdraw the motion. Mr. E. A. BROWN presented the petition of A. M. Freedenburg and seventy-four other citizens of Martinsburgh, for a provision in the Constitution prohibiting the sale of intoxicating liquors as a beverage. Which was referred to the Select Committee on that subject. Mr. FOWLER presented the petition of C. A. McNeal and others, for a provision in the Constitution, prohibiting the Legislature or municipal corporations from appropriating public funds to churches, schools, etc., of a sectarian character. Which was referred to the Committee on the Powers and Duties of the Legislature. Also the petition of Miss Laura Bosworth and others, of Peterboro, for equal suffrage for men and women. Which was referred to the Committee of the Whole, having the subject in charge. Mr. SCHELL presented the memorial of members of the bar of the city of New York, for a provision that the code of laws known as the Revised Statutes, shall hereafter be known as the " General Statutes," and that it shall also prescribe the manner in which laws altering or amending the same, shall be enacted. Which was referred to the Committee on the Powers and Duties of the Legislature. Mr. WAKEMAN offered the following resolution: Resolved, That it be referred to the Committee on the Bill of Rights, to inquire into the expediency of amending the Constitution so as to allow the party accused of crime to have the last appeal to the jury in reply to the counsel for the prosecution. Which was referred to the Committee on the Preamble and Bill of Rights. Mr. FULLER offered the following resolution: Resolved, That the Committee on the Judiciary be requested to examine and report upon the propriety and expediency of striking out the last paragraph of the 8th section of the 6th article of the Constitution of this State. Which was referred to the Committee on the Judiciary. Mr. T. W. DWIGHT —In the memorial of the Prison Association which I submitted to the Convention on Friday last, the name of one of the members of that committee was not attached, as he was not then in town. A telegram from him has been received authorizing his name to be attached, with the modification which I will read as follows: "NEW YORK, JUNE 28TH. I approve the proposed clause relating to prisons, striking out compensation. Provision should also be made for removal as in case of other officers for cause. JOHN T. HOFFMAN." I now move,sir,that this communication be added to the memorial, and that the memorial, with such addition, be printed in the Journal of Debates. Mr. M. I. TOWNSEND — I do not remember the length of the memorial; but my memory is that it is of considerable length. Mr. T. W. DWIGHT - The gentleman is mis. taken; it is not lengthy. Mr. M. I. TOWNSEND -If that is so, I have no objection. Mr. ALVORD -I would suggest to the gentleman from Oneida [Mr. T. W. Dwight], that the ordinary rule is not to print the memorial in the debates; it comes in as a separate document. Mr. T. W. DWIGHT-It ought to go on the Journal of Debates. It is a subject that has received great attention from the committee of the association, and it is one of great importance, and ought to be printed. The question was then put on the motion of Mr. T. W. Dwight. aqd it was declared carried. The following is the memorial referred to: GENTLEMEN OF THE CONVENTION: The memorial of the undersigned, a Committee of the Prison Association of New York on Prison Reform, respectfully report: That it is now more than two years since we were appointed by the Executive Committee of the Prison Association a committee to consider the present organization of our prisons, and to report a plan for their re-organization. During this period we have had the matter under consideration, and have been collecting facts and studying principles with a view to the satisfactory performance of the duty assigned us. In the prosecution of our labors, two of our number were commissioned in 1865 to visit other States and examine their prisons and prison systems. These gentlemen pursued the inquiries with which they were charged, in eighteen States, and to some extent in Canada also. They have embodied the results in an extended report, which is now going through the press, and will, as soon as issued, be laid upon the tables of the members. For further prosecution of the work required at our hands a commission was last year appointed, clothed with special power by. the Legislature to call former, as well as present prison officers before them, and receive their statements under oath touching the condition and management of our prisons. Some twenty or more witnesses were examined, most of them gentlemen of great experience. A paper givingthe results of the examination, together with the evidence itself as taken down from the witnesses, is printed in the twenty-second annual report of the Association, just printed, which report will also be laid upon the tables of the members. The undersigned do not propose to weary your honorable body with the details of the two investigations referred to. These will be found fully set forth in the reports, either placed, or to be placed, in your hands. We will content ourselves with a few brief references: In Pennsylvania party politics are not felt as a disturbing element in the management of the prisons. The Inspectors are appointed by the Supreme Court of the State, and they in turn choose the wardens; and these officers are retained in their positions without the slightest regard to their political opinions, as are also the subordinate officers appointed by them. As regards politics, it is much the same in Massachusetts. The appointment of the warden is made by the Governor and Council, and he holds 193 his office as long as he is found faithful and is consent of the Senate, and shall hold office for ten willing to serve. He also virtually appoints his years, except that the persons first appointed subordinates, in doing which he never takes shall, in such manner as the Legislature may account of their party connections, and never direct, be so classified that the term of one of the removes an officer on that ground. In most of persons so appointed shall expire at the end of the other States, as well as our own, political each two years during the first ten years. Any influence exercises much power in the govern- vacancies in office afterward occurring shall be ment and administration of the prisons, although filled in the same manner. They shall receive in none of them, we believe, does this influence such compensation as shall be established by law. make itself felt to the same extent or operate so The Legislature may confer such powers and disastrously as in New York. Here it is the impose such duties upon said Board of Governors dominating power. The prisons constitute a part in respect to the county jails, local or district of the political machinery of the State, and in penitentiaries, and other penal institutions within their management the interests both of the convict the State as shall be deemed expedient." and the community are often sacrificed to that of We respectfully submit the foregoing paper to the politician. This is the basis of the system. your consideration, in the hope that it may so It lies at the root of most of all the evils connected approve itself to your judgment that by your with it; and, in particular, it is the cause of official action it may be incorporated into the fundainstability in the tenure of office, and in that mental law of the State. And your petitioners want of permanence in the executive administra- will ever pray, etc. tion which render improvement difficult and all FRANCIS LIEBER, approach toward perfection quite out of the JOHN H. GRISCOM, question. We freely acknowledge the utility and E. C. WINES, importance of party politics. Within its appro- THEODORE W. DWIGHT, priate sphere it has generous and noble functions. N. F. ALLEN, Without its restraining force, the ruling power, G. B. HUBBELL. intoxicated with its prerogative, unaided by the vigilance of opponents and released from all feeling Mr. WAKEMAN offered the following resoluof responsibility, would degenerate into despotism, tion: and tyranny would hold a perpetual carnival. But Resolved, That it be referred to the Committee there are some things which it touches only to on the Judiciary to inquire into the expediency of mar. There are precious interests in reference to abolishing the Grand Jury and substituting inwhich the warning must be sounded: " Touch not, stead a number of persons, not exceeding five, to handle not." Religion is one of these. Education be selected by the Board of Supervisors of the is another, and surely the penal institutions of the several counties of this State. State constitute a third, since they combine, in a Which was referred to the Committee on the high degree, the characteristics of both the others, Judiciary. being at once, if they are what they ought to be, Mr. BAKER offered the following resolution: religious and educational. One of the main Resolved, That the Committee on the Powers and objects we have had in view in prosecuting the Duties of the Legislature be requested to inquire work confided to us has been to devise some into the expediency and justice of so amending the means of divorcing, as far as practicable, our Constitution as to prohibit the Legislature from prisons from politics, and also of freeing them granting donations from the treasury of the State to from this baneful and blighting influence. This any benevolent, charitable or religious institution divorce can be effected only by a change of con- or association, or to any sectarian college, school stitutional provisions, and for such change our or association, except to the State Lunatic Asyresource must be to your honorable body. We lums, the Idiot Asylums, and the institutions for have prepared the draft of. the article to be the Deaf and Dumb. inserted, if it meet your approbation, in the Which was referred to the Committee on the amended Constitution which you were chosen to Powers and Duties of the Legislature. frame. This draft has been submitted to the General Orders having been reached in the order Executive Committee o' the Prison Association, of business, and has been unanimously approved by them. It The SECRETARY announced the report of the is in the words following, to wit: Committee on the Right of Suffrage and the Quali"There shall be a Board of Governors of fications to Hold Office. Prisons, who shall have the charge and superin- Mr. M. I. TOWNSEND -I move to postpone tendence of the State prisons, and power to the consideration of the report until the 9th day appoint the wardens or principal keepers, the of July. chaplains, clerks and physicians thereof, and the The PRESIDENT pro tem. -The motion of the power of removing the officers above named, and gentleman from Rensselaer [Mr. M. I. Townsend], the other officers in the same; but such removal is hardly necessary, as there is no person present shall be for cause, and the accused shall, in all to move the consideration of the report. cases, be entitled to be informed of the charges Mr. M. I. TOWNSEND - It may be moved at against ihim, and to be heard in his own defense. some subsequent session, and my object is that it Said board shall also have the superintendence, be postponed to a day positive. With power of visitation, of all institutions for the The PRESIDENT pro tern.-Tho Chair did reformation of juvenile delinquents and thle pre- not understand that the motion of the gentleman vention of crime. It shall consist of five persons, was for a day certain. to be appointed by the Governor, by and with the Mr. 'BICKFORD- Would it not be well to- o 25 194 into a Committee of the Whole on the report now, deserted, we are left without one. How they can and give an opportunity to put in amendments for reconcile their conduct to their conscience, I am future consideration? unable to say; I will leave that to them. InasThe PRESIDENT pro tern. —The motion of much as we are left without a quorum, there can the gentleman from Rensselaer [Mr. M. I. Town- be no object in adjourning over from day to day send], has precedence, being a motion to postpone until Wednesday, except to save our per diem, wo a day certain. and, for one, I prefer to adjourn to-day until next Mr. ALVORD -I hope my friend from Rens- Monday, at half-past seven o'clock. selaer [Mr. M. I. Townsend] will withdraw his Mr. CASSIDY-I withdraw the amendment motion. It strikes me that we cannot postpone~ offered by me. I had no such motive in offering the consideration of the report until Tuesday the it as the one stated by the gentleman from Monroe 9th instant, without its being made a special order, [Mr. Fuller]. I only wanted to conform the action and that would require a two-thirds vote. of the Convention to the order of business already Mr. M. I. TOWNSEND - No, the motion does taken. I quite agree with the gentleman in his not contemplate that. statement of how little commendable it is for Mr. ALVORD- I ask the decision of the Chair members to avoid their per diem duties while geton that point. ting their per diem pay. The PRESIDENT pro ter. —The Chair is of Mr. WAKEMAN-Did I understand the Chair the opinion that the motion of the gentleman from to say that it would be necessary for the officers Rensselaer [Mr. M. I. Townsend] does not require of the Convention to be here on Wednesday next? a two-thirds vote, inasmuch as it does not create a The PRESIDENT pro ten.-That it would be special order for the day named by him, the mo- aunder the amendment of the gentleman from tion being only to postpone an order of business Albany [Mr. Cassidy]. and not to set down for that day any particular The question was then put on the motion of subject for consideration. Mr. Fuller, and it was declared carried. The question was then put on the resolution of So the Convention stood adjourned to Monday Mr. M. I. Townsend and it was declared carried. evening, July 8th, at half-past seven o'clock. Mr. FULLER-I move that this Convention do now adjourn to Monday evening at half-past seven o'clock. MONDAY, JULY 8, 1867. Mr. CASSIDY-I move to amend by making The Convention met pursuant to adjournment. the hour to which we shall adjourn, Wednesday at 71 o'clock P. M. at half-past eleven o'clock. There has already a Prayer was offered by Rev. AMBROSE vote been taken that when we adjourn on Wednes- O'NEILL. day, we adjourn at that hour until the following The Journal of Monday, July 1st, was read by Monday. If we adjourn now until Wednesday, the Secretary and was declared approved. we will complete the order. The PRESIDENT announced the following The PRESIDENT pro tem.- The Chair will communication: state that if the amendment of the gentleman from Albany [Mr. Cassidy] prevails, it will be neces- CONSTITUTIONAL CONVENTION, MARYLAND, sary for the Convention to meet again on Wednes- ANNAPOLIS, June 27, 1867. day. By the Convention: Mr. CASSIDY-But if we adjourn to half-past ORDERED, That this Convention cordially reeleven on that day, the order of the Convention spends to the proposal made by the Constitutional is that we adjourn at that hour. Convention of the State of New York for an The PRESIDENT pro tem. - The amend- exchange of Journal, debates and proceedings, and ment of the gentleman would require the officers that the Secretary be instructed to send regularly of the Convention to be here to adjourn the Con- to that Convention ten copies of the journal of vention on that day. proceedings of this body, and also to communiMr. FULLER-The Chair decided on Satur- cate the fact that this Convention has not proday that it would be in order, notwithstanding vided for the publication of its debates, and the resolution adopted, to adjourn on Wednes therefore cannot comply with the proposed exday next, to move to adjourn over until a change in that particular. week from Monday evening. That being so, sir, By order, MILTON Y. KIDD, Secretary. the only object there could be in adjourning over until Wednesday would be to save Mr. FERRY presented the petition of A. P. our er diem. I for one, am not anxious for that Chamberlain and two hundred and forty-four othkfnd of distinction. I was one of those who ers, in favor of prohibiting the sale of intoxicating voted tocontinue the business of this Convention liquors as a beverage. during three days of this week. I did it in good Which was referred to the select committee faith, for the purpose of forwarding the business having the subject in charge. in order that we might get througli in time to Mr. FOWLER presented the petition of Gerrit submit our labors to the people at the next Smith and one hundred and eighty others, in favor general election, which we shall not be able to do, of female suffrage. unless we make progress faster than we have so Which was referred to the Committee of the far. If those who voted with me to continue the Whole. business of the session during this week had Mr. COCHRAN offered the following resolustayed in their places, we should have had a tion:' quoru;, but a majority of them' having Resolved That it be referred to the Committee 195 on Militia and Military Officers to consider the Resolved, That it be referred to the Committee availability of the following amendment: on Education, etc., to inquire into the propriety of 1. In the organization of the National Guard abolishing the officb of Superintendent of Public of this State, a list of reserve officers shall be Instruction, and to return to and devolve upon included, to be composed of officers of the National the Secretary of State the powers and duties of Guard, who have served three years in some such officer-or in the event of the continuance grade, and of United States volunteer officers of the office, to make the same elective by the who have been honorably mustered out of people for a term of three years. the United States service, and who are now, or Which was referred to the Committee on Edumay become citizens of this State. catiop. 2. Officers entitled to positions in the National Mr. GOULD asked for a leave of absence for Guard reserve list, shall be commissioned as three days to attend the State Agricultural Society officers of the National Guard reserves by the at Buffalo. Governor, on their application to him, and shall Which was granted. have rank equal to the highest held previously by On motion of Mr. HARRIS, the Convention them, by brevet or otherwise, in the National adjourned. Guard, State of New York, or in the volunteer service of the United States, and, in time of peace, shall be at liberty to resign from the same at their pleasure.Y, JY 9. 3. National Guard reserve officers shall be The Convention met at 11 o'clock A. Mt. exempt from all military duty, except such as they Prayer was offered by Rev. EDWARD BAYmay be placed upon, by the direct orders of the ARD. Governor. The Journal of yesterday was read by the Sec4. National Guard reserve officers when placed retary and was declared approved. temporarily on any important military duty, shall Mr. SILVESTER-I desire to ask leave to cor. receive the pay and allowances of United States rect the Journal of Friday, June 28. I was not army officers of the same grades, while actually in my seat when the Journal of that day was read, engaged upon such military service. and this is the first opportunity I have had to 5. National Guard reserve officers shall be en- make the application. titled to wear a badge of honor upon the breast, The PRESIDENT-The Journal of that day to be prescribed by the Governor. has been approved. 6. In fixing the number of the National Guard, Mr. SILVESTER-I was not in my seat at that the Legislature shall specify that the same shall time and, I believe, that once before this practice be exclusive of the National Guard reserve has been adopted by the Convention. officers. The PRESIDENT-If there is no objection the Which was referred to the Committee on the Journal will be corrected. Militia and Military Officers. Mr. SILVESTER-The amendment I wish to Mr. LEE offered the following resolution: make is thus: thb word "unless," should not be Resolved, That the Committee on Canals be in the resolution. The object of the resolution was instructed to consider and report to this Con- to make a person a competent witness upon a vention, its opinion as to the expediency of insert- trial. I would like to have it appear on the ing a provision in the Constitution prohibiting the minutes of to-day what the whole of the resoluLegislature from granting extra compensation to tion was, Which was referred to that committee. any and all parties contracting to do work for the The resolution corrected as desired by Mr. SilState, or to pass any law authorizing any other vester is as follows: body or board to award extra compensation for Resolved, That it be referred to the appropriate the same. committee, to inquire into the expediency of proWhich was referred to the Committee on viding in the Constitution that any member of the Canals. Legislature who shall receive or accept of, any Mr. LEE, also, offered the following resolution: money or valuable thing for his vote upon any Resolved, That the Auditor of the Canal measure, or who shall propose to enter into an Department be resFectfully requested to report agreement with any other member that either will to this Convention. at his earliest convenience, vote in a particular manner upon any measure, if the number and amounts of awards paid by him the other Will vote in -a particular manner upon. or his predecessors in office, from 1846 to 1866 another measure, if such proposition shall be carinclusive, as extra compensation to contractors ried into effect, shall be punishable by deprivation for labor and materials furnished to the State, by of the right to vote and hold office; but the perwhat authority said awards were made -to son who has offered, or paid, or delivered suchWhom, and when they were paid. money or valuable thing, or who has assented to Which was laid on the table under the rule. such proposition for such exchange of votes, if Mr. GOULD offered the following resolution: such proposition has been carried into effect, shall Resolved, That the Committee on the Bill of not be liable to any penalty or punishment, and Rights be requested to inquire into the expediency shall be a competent and compellable witness 0f incorporating the "right to testify" among the upon the trial of the member who has accepted natural rights of mankind, such money or valuable thing, or who has made Which was referred to the Committee on the such proposition. Preamble and Bill of Rights. Mr. JOHN MAGEE, a delegate, appeared in Mr. BARTO offered the following resolution: the Convention and was administered the consti 196 tutional oath of office by the President, and took his seat. Mr. KINNEY presented the petition of 112 citizens of Waverly, Tioga county, praying for some provision in the Constitution that shall prohibit the donation of public moneys to charitable institutions of a sectarian character. Which was referred to the Committee on Charitable Institutions. Mr. ENDRESS presented the petition of Emma C. Lawrence and twenty others, citizens of Westchester, asking the right of suffrage for women. Which was referred to the Committee of the Whole. Mr. MURPHY presented the petition of Thomas U. Cashow and eighteen others, citizens of Kings county, asking suffrage for women. Which was referred to the Committee of the Whole. Mr. FULLERTON presented the petition of Mary J. Quackenbush and fifteen others, citizens of Newburgh, asking suffrage for women. Which was referred to the Committee of the Whole. Mr. VAN CAMPEN presented the petition of Mary E. Mead and thirty others, citizens of Westchester county, asking for the right of suffrage for women. Which was referred to the Committee of the Whole. Mr. BEADLE presented the petitition of Mrs. W. S. Shute, Mary C. Bristol, and one hundred and twenty others, citizens of Horse Heads, asking for equal suffrage for women. Which was referred to the Committee of the Whole. Mr. T. W. DWIGHT presented the memorial of the committee of the New York Prison Association on Pardons, by Dr. Francis Lieber, chairman. Which was referred to the Committee on the Pardoning Power. Mr. HAMMOND presented the petition of Mrs. J. C. Holmes and fifteen others, citizens of Westchester county, asking for equal suffrage. Which was referred to the Committee of the Whole. Mr. WALES presented two memorials relating to the re-organization of the Court of Appeals, etc. Which were referred to the Committee on the Judiciary. Mr. T. W. DWIGHT presented the memorial of a citizen of Utica, respecting the investment of the funds of educational institutions in registered bonds of the State. Which was referred to the Committee on Education. Mr. GRAVES presented two petitions, one from Jane E. Turner, Rev. C. H. Bebee, and fifty-six others of Bridgewater, Oneida county, and one from Julia M. Sherwood and twenty-two other citizens of Westchester county, asking for the right of suffrage for women. Which were referred to the Committee of the Whole. Mr. CHAMPLAIN -I hold in my hand a memorial from the citizens of the county of Allegany, earetly remonstrating against the abandonment or discontinuance of the Genesee Valley canal. I will briefly state its contents. This petition alleges that the original cost of that canal was very largely enhanced by the Stop law of 1842, in consequence of which many of its structures were deteriorated and went to decay. The petition further says there has been subsequently great improvidence, want of economy in the expenditures on it and. in its superintendence and management. The petition further states that the section of'country through which this canal passes, particularly the counties of Livingston, Wyoming, Allegany and Cattaraugus, have been subject of late years to sudden and violent floods, unprecedented in the history of the country, and that the structures upon this canal were defective and not capacitated to discharge the rapidly accumulated waters, in consequence of which they were torn out and the canal in many instances partially destroyed; that this accounts to a great extent for the decrease of tolls upon this canal in the last few years; that in consequence of the uncertainty of navigation, articles of freight have sought other channels in the market. The petition further states, that down the Allegany river to Pittsburg, lumber has been run in large quantities; that when the canal is saved this superfluous expense, which'the petition charges should not be made a ground of odium against the canal, it will present a favorable exhibit and commend itself to the favorable consideration of the people of the State. The petition further states that it has developed to a large extent that section of the country, adding largely to the value of the property; that its abandonment would reduce the assessed valuation of the property in several counties very materially; that if economy can obtain in the management of this canal it will be a paying canal, and will add largely to the revenues of the State; that there are forests of pine and hemlock timber which will seek this canal as tributary to the Erie canal in the market, and that extensive coal beds have been opened in Pennsylvania which will furnish permanent and endu'ring freight. I ask the reference of this petition to the proper committee. The memorial was referred to the Committee on Canals. Mr. CHAMPLAIN-I have a memorial in my hand from numerous citizens of Northern Pennsylvania, bearing upon the question of the prospective trade of the Genesee Valley and Erie canals. In view of the source from which this memorial emanates and the important fact it suggqsts in reference to our canal system, I ask that the memorial be read. The SECRETARY proceeded to read the memorial. During the reading Mr. BERGEN moved that the further reading of the memorial be dispensed with. Which was carried. Mr. ENDRESS —As this is a subject of the last degree of importance, and one which is going to have an important bearing upon the vote upon the Constitution which may be proposed, equal to any other question, I move that this memorial be printed. I come, sir, from a part of the State which takes a deep interest in the Genesee Valley 197 canal, that is, the county of Livingston. Th( memorial contains an argument which will b( sought for and gladly read by the people of Mon roe, Livingston, Allegany and Cat-taraugus coun ties, alid I propose, by having it published, to pui it into the hands of those citizens. There being no objection the memorial was or dered to be printed, and referred to the Committee on Canals. The memorial is in the words the following: To the Honorable the Constitutional Convention fo? the State of New York, assembled at Albany: The memorial of the undersigned, citizens of the county of McKean and Commonwealth of Pennsylvania, respectfully represent. We have learned with sorrow and surprise thal a proposition is now pending before your honorable body for a discontinuance or abandonment of the Genesee Valley canal. We. feel confident such a proposition would not for a moment be entertained if the people of your State and the members of your Convention were fully advised of its certain prospective financial value, its importance as a feeder to the Erie canal, and as affording the means of supply to your mechanical and manufacturing interests. You cannot correctly judge of it by what it has done, or to this time has failed to do. Its incomplete condition and small capacity for transportation has deterred parties who would desire to employ it from making the considerable outlays for placing freight on it, which would otherwise have been done, and which would at once be done if they could be assured it would be made a reliable means of transportation. We beg leave, respectfully, to call your attention to a few facts: The G. V. canal terminates at the Allegany river, with which it is united by a lock at Millgrove, one mile from the south line of your State. It practically terminates in Pennsylvania, ten miles south of the line of your State, as the river is navigable for boats for that distance, and has been constantly used for their transportation since the canal has been built. A steam tug is now making daily trips from the southern terminus of the canal ten miles up the Allegany river. The county of McKean, in Pennsylvania, which lies immediately adjoining Cattaraugus and Allegany in your own State, contains extensive deposits of bituminous coal of superior quality for the forge, for gas, fuel and generating steam. Its quantity and quality have been fully demonstrated, and though some parties who have made investments in coal lands in McKean county have been disappointed and deceived in the Character of the lands they purchased, all who are at all conversant with this region admit the large extent and good quality of the coal. With the reasonable Price afforded by water transportation, the demand for it in western New York and southern Canada will be only measured by the supply. It will be reached in ample quantities at the distance of fourteen to twenty-two miles from the G. V. canal. A charter was procured from the Legislature of Pennsylvania at its last session, authorizing the iprovement of the. Allegany river from the termi nus of the Genesee Valley canal and the construction of a canal or railroad thence to the coal mines. - It is confidently expected work will soon com- mence on this improvement, particularly if the I capitalists who have it in contemplation can be assured the Genesee Valley canal will be held and maintained in a'condition to render it a reliable means of transportation for the heavy freight which will thus be thrown upon it. It will be safe to say this improvement will give the Genesee Valley canal, in coal alone, one thousand tons per day, during the season of canal navigation, from the Bunker Hill mines, near Bishop's Summit. Immediately south of this lies the extensive coal fields of Elk and Cateron counties. There are now in full working operation not less than ten companies who are shipping by the Pennsylvania and Erie railroad, all of whom are earnestly desirous of sending their coal North to market, and would do so via the Genesee Valley canal, -if it could be relied on. From these and the anthracite and bituminous coal regions further south, vast quantities 'will also be thrown upon this canal by the Buffalo and Washington Railroad which is to be immediately constructed. This railroad is now under contract and work will commence on it in this State as soon as the proper surveys can be made, engineers now being engaged in completing its location. It will connect with the P. & E. R. R. at Emporium, in Cameron county, and run north, crossing the Genesee Valley canal at Portville or Olean. In addition to this freight, there will be afforded millions upon millions of lumber annually, this whole region being heavily covered with valuable timber. The country also abounds in iron ore which at no distant day will be extensively worked and will look to your State for a market. There is now constructed and fully equipped, a first-class nninfm t ri railroad, running from the Erie railway, at Carrolton, to the Lafayette coal mines in this county, a distance of twenty-five miles. By this road, and using the Erie railway for the distance of eleven miles, the Genesee Valley canal is reached at Olean. There are now organized at Lafayette six coal companies, "to wit:" The McKean company (bituminous), with a present capacity for producing and delivering by their lateral railroad one hundred tons per day, and they have prepared a place at Cuba for the transhipment of their coal from the cars to the boats of the Genesee Valley canal. The Lafayette coal company are now shipping one hundred and fifty tons per day, via Dunkirk to Buffalo and Rochester. This company shipped last year by the Genesee Valley canal one thousand five hundred tons, and would have shipped one hundred tons per day if the canal had beea in good order, and would now ship three hundred tons per day if they had the means of cheap water communication. They also have a chute at Dunkirk. for transhipment to boats on the lake. The Bond Vein coal company are shipping fifty tons per day. The Kinua coal company are prepared to ship seventy-five tons per 4ay. The Longwood Coal Company are shipping fifty tons per day. The Tunungwunt coal company have their 198 mines opened and are prepared to ship seventy- Your committee therefore recommend the reso. five tons per day. lution be not adopted. It has been estimated by persons competent to (Signed) E. 'E. FERRY, judge, that from the Lafayette coal field alone Chairman, there could be delivered next season two thousand W. A. REYNOLDS, tons per day, and much the greater part would ROBT. COCHRAN, seek a market by this canal if it could be relied on. GEO. WILLIAMS. Connected with this memorial we send a map, Which was adopted showing very accurately the true position of this Mr. BICKFORD offered the following resolu. mineral region to your State and its public im- tion: provements, with distances, elevations, etc., to a Resolved, That there should be a provision in careful examination of which we respectfully beg the Constitution substantially as follows: your attention..- It is hereby declared to be a right of the people SMITHPORT, July 5, 1867. of this State, at all times, and by all efficient (Signed) SETH A. BACKUS, means, to catch and take fish in any of the salt and thirty-nine others. waters in or bordering upon this State, and in all arms of the sea, and rivers where the tide ebbs Mr. C. E. PARKER presented the petition of and flows, and in the waters of the lakes Erie and citizens of Tioga county, on the subject of legis- Ontario, and the rivers Niagara and St. Lawrence, lative donations to sectarian institutions. and to sell and dispose of the fish so taken; and Which was referred to the Committee on the such right not to be restricted, except so far as Powers and Duties of the Legislature. may be necessary to prevent trespass and practiMr. BAKER presented the petition of D. C. ces detrimental to this, and other industrial inter. Cox, and others, citizens of Montgomery county on ests of the people. the same subject. Mr. BICKFORD-There are several committees Which took the same reference. to which this resolution might be referred; but I The PRESIDENT presented a petition of citi- suggest that it be referred to the Committee on zens of New York, asking that a separate clause Industrial Interests. be submitted as a part of the Constitution, to pro- The resolution was referred to the Committee hibit the sale of intoxicating liquors as a bever- on Industrial Interests. age. Mr. STRATTON offered the following resoluWhich was referred, to the select committee tion: having charge of that subject. Resolved, That the Comptroller of the city of Mr. DUGANNE presented the petition of citi- New York be requested to prepare, and commuzens of Kings county in reference to bribery and nicate to this Convention, as early as practicable, corruption. the amounts paid for the year 1866, for salaries Whtch was referred to the Committee on of justices, judges, clerks, stenographers, officers, the Suppression of Official Corruption. interpreters and attendants, and the amounts paid The PRESIDENT presented a communication for stationery and contingent expenses, of the from the Clerk of the Court of.Appeals in answer following named courts in the city of New York, to a resolution of the Convention adopted June stating the number of justices, judges, clerks and 31st. other attendants, of each court separately, and all Which was referred to the Committee on the other expenses of each court separately, as far as Judiciary. he is able to do so; and als6 whether said amounts Mr. M. I. TOWNSEND moved that the com- are to be increased or diminished the present munication be printed. year, and how much, viz.: Supreme Court, SupeWhich was carried. rior Court, Court of Common Pleas, Marine Court, Mr. FERRY, from the Committee on Contingent District Courts, Police Courts, and the Courts of Expenses, submitted the following report: General and Special Sessions; and that he also Your committee, to whom was referred the report the amount of fees received from each of resolution of Mr. Hitchcock, requiring the Secre- said courts during said year. tary of this Convention to procure twenty dia- Mr: ROGERS -I move that the resolution lie grams of this Chamber for each member, officer on the table. and reporter, respectfully report: The resolution laid over under the rule. That upon the proper inquiry they have ascer- Mr. FULLER offered the following resolution: tained that the cost of each copy would be thirty Resolved, That it be referred to the special comr cents, making the aggregate expense $1,140, mittee on that subject, to inquire and report (eleven hundred and forty dollars). whether legislative corruption in this State is not These diagrams are regarded byyour committee largely, if not mainly due to the moneyed iufluenas more ornamental than useful, and they are ces of overgrown corporations, particularly railunwilling, for obvious reasons, to advise the incur- road corporations; and if so, what remedy can be ring of any expenditure,of money which is not devised for so great a mischief. manifestly necessary. In the absence of such Which was referred to the Committee on the necessity, we need not discuss the question as to the suppression of Official Corruption. the power and right of this Convention to incur Mr. LEE called up the resolution offered by an expense of this character, further than to himself yesterday, as follows: remark that it evidently was not contemplated by Resolved, That the Auditor of the Canal Departthe Legislature when the act was framed under ment be respectfully requested to report to this which we are now assembled. Convention, at his earliest convenience, the num 199 her and amounts of awards paid by him or his predecessors in office, from 1846 to 1866, inclusive, as extra compensation to contractors for labor and materials furilished the State; by what authority said awards were made; to whom and when they were paid. The question was then put on the resolution of Mr. Lee, and it was declared adopted. Mr. T. W. DWIGHT offered the following resolution: Resolved, That the Committee on Education be instructed to inquire into the expediency of permitting donors of funds devoted permanently to the endowment of educational institutions, to pay them into the State Treasury, to be invested in registered bonds of the State. Such bonds to be held by an officer of the treasury, who shall pay the interest or income of any such fund to the institution for whose endowment it is bestowed. The same committee shall also inquire into the expediency of permitting trustees of colleges, academies, etc., to invest their permanent funds in like manner, and of requiring a regular account of the amount.and investment of the principal, and payment of the income of all such funds, to be published annually as an appendix to the Session Laws. Which was referred to the Committee on Education. Mr. GREELEY offered the following resolution: Resolved, That (he Convention now resolve itself into Comlmittee of the Whole and proceed to consider the report of the Standing Committee on the Right of Suffrage. The PRESIDENT —Will the gentleman from Westchester [Mr. Greeley] withdraw his resolution for a moment, to present a communication? Mr. GREELEY-Certainly. The PRESIDENT presented a communication from the State Engineer and Surveyor in answer to a resolution of the Convention, adopted June 26, 1867. Which was laid on the table. Mr FOLGER offered the following resolution: Resolved, That the use of this chamber be granted to the American Equal Rights Association, for a meeting on the evening of Wednesday 'the 10th inst. Mr. GREELEY-I object to the consideration of that resolution now, as I wish to ask the Convention to conclude its debates on that subject by that evening. Mr. FOLGEG —I will not 'ask for it if the chamber is occupied by the Convention. Mr. ROGERS-I would ask if this does not require a two-thirds vote of this House. The PRESIDENT-The Chair is not aware of any such rule. Mr. ALVORD-I trust that the gentleman from Westchester [Mr. Greeley] will allow his resolution to lie over, because the fact is that, when we get through resolutions which are now the order of business, then this report will come up, as a matter of course, under the rule, without the necessity of any resolution upon his part; but now it will require a two-thirds vote to take up the report Mr. GREELEY - I must persist in my resolutioa; I waited until I thought there was no more business before the Convention, and I trust the resolution will now be adopted. The PRESIDENT-The Chair. would inform the gentleman from Westchester [Mr. Greeley], that Rule 3 provides for the regular order of business, and that, except on days and at times set apart for the consideration of special orders, the order of business shall not be departed from except by unanimous consent. The PRESIDENT proceeded to call the regular orders, and there being no further business, The CONVENTION resolved itself into a Committee of the Whole on the report of the Committee on the Right of Suffrage, Mr. ALVORD, of Onondaga, in the Chair. The CHAIRMAN-Under the rule, unless otherwise required. by the committee, the report of the committee, as far as regards the article proposed, will be read by the Secretary. Mr. GREELEY-I move that the reading be dispensed with. Mr. E. BROOKS — I hope not. I call for the reading of the report, and hope it will be read. The SECRETARY then proceeded to read the article proposed by the committee. Mr. ROGERS - On that I call for the ayes and noes. The CHAIRMAN-The Chair will inform the gentleman from New York [Mr. Rogers] that there is no question before the committee. Mr. FOLGER — Are amendments now in order, or must the article be read by sections? The CHAIRMAN-It must be read by sections. The SECRETARY proceeded to read the first section as follows: " ~ 1. Every man of the age of twenty-one years who shall have been an inhabitant of this State for one year next preceding an election, and for the last thirty days a citizen of the United States, and a resident of the election district where he may offer his vote, shall be entitled to vote at such election, in said district, and not elsewhere, for all officers elected by the people. " Provided, That idiots, lunatics, persons under guardianship, felons and persons convicted of bribery, unless pardoned or otherwise restored to civil rights, shall not be entitled to vote. No person who shall at any time within thirty days next preceding, have been a public pauper, shall voto at any election. No person who shall receive, expect to receive, pay, or offer to pay, any money or other valuable thing to influence or reward a vote to be given at an election, shall vote at such election; 'and, upon challenge for such cause, the person so challenged shall, before the inspectors receive his vote,. swear or affirm before such inspectors that he has not received, does not expect to receive, has not paid nor offered to pay, any money or other valuable thing to influence or reward a vote to be given at such election. Laws may be passed excluding from voting at an election every person, who shall have made, or who shall be interested in, a bet or wager depending upon the result thereof." Mr. FOLGEI —I move the following amend. ment. The SECRETARY proceeded to read the amendment as follows: On page 2. Strike out lines 11 and 12 down 200 to and including the word "election" in the 12th line. Mr. CARPENTER —I wish to offer the following amendment. The SECRETARY proceeded to read the amendment as follows; Amend by adding to section 1 the following words: Provided, further, That any person not a qualified voter at the time when this proviso shall take effect shall not thereafter vote at any election, unless able to read the Constitution in the English language, and write his name; and inability so to read or write shall be cause for challenge at the podls; but this proviso shall not apply to any person prevented by physical disability from reading or writing,as aforesaid. The CHAIRMAN — The Chair will inform the gentleman from Dutchess [Mr. Carpenter], that his proposition is not germane to the proposition offered by the gentleman from Ontario [Mr. Folger]. Mr. CARPENTER -I wish to offer that as a substitute for the proposition of the gentleman from Ontario [Mr. Folger], and while proposing to amend section 1 of article 2. as reported by the committee, by adding thereto the words of this proviso, I desire to state that if the proposition shall be approved by the Convention, it seems proper that it should be submitted separately to the judgment of th' people, so that, standing entirely upon its merits, it may receive their indorsement, or fail by the expression of their disapproval. The article reported by the committee as a substitute for article 2 of the existing Constitution, provides that "every man of the age of twenty-one years who shall have been an inhabitant of this State for one year next preceding an election, and for the last thirty days a citizen of the United States, and a resident of the election district where he may offer his vote, shall be entitled to vote at such elction, in said district, and not elsewhere, for all officers elected by the people." To which general provision an exception is made of certain classes notoriously incompetent, of persons convicted of henious crimes, and of persons under restraint or a contingent undue influence. The minority of the committee have offered as an amendment to the report of the majority the following resolution: " esolved, That a proposition further to extend the elective franchise to colored men be submitted to be voted on separately from the rest of the Constitution." Since, in the proposed 'article, complexion is not made a disqualification, and therefore the elective franchise could not be further extended to colored persons than by the terms therein expressed, I think I am correct in construing the minority report to be substantially a proposition to retain article 11 of the existing Constitution, and to submit separately for adoption or rejection by the people, a provision conferring upon colored men further elective privileges than are now allowed to them. From a careful reading of the two reports e anatig from the Suffrage Committee, I have been unable to discover any discordance of views pn w question of principle that may not be effectually harmonized by the adoption of this amendment, while concurring mainly in the major. ity report, and believing that the great principle of manhood suffrage should be distinctly enunciated as the rule, a course dictated not only by sound logic, but by the precedent established by the Convention of 1846, still, if any modification of the general rule not based upon crime or what is generally deemed absolute incompetency is to be recommended for adoption, I regard it not improper, that such modification should be submitted separately for the independent consideration of the electors of the State. For the pur. pose, therefore, of enabling this Convention to unite upon a proposition, modifying the general rule of suffrage —a proposition founded upon principle, and which can be sustained alike by sound reason and State policy, I have offered this amendment, and shall state briefly the reasons that have convinced me that its adoption would be not only proper but exceeding desirable. The justice or injustice of any restriction upon suffrage depends upon the fact whether the exercise of the elective function be an inherent right or a privilege. If it be a right, absolute and inalienable, then every proscription of its exercise, founded upon age, or class, or sex, or conduct, is not only arbitrary but tyrannical. Under our system of government, which allows the widest latitude of rights and privileges, there is no right, not even to life itself, that. is perfectly absolute. The very term and every page of the world's history prove the elective franchise to be a privilege and not a right. The power to prescribe qualifications in an officer has never been disputed, then why with equal propriety may they not be prescribed for an elector? The rule is, that every person may engage in honorable labor, and control his earnings, but the Constitution provides that the lawyer must exhibit a certain degree of learning and intelligence before being admitted to practice in the courts, and this limitation has never been termed oppressive. There is hardly a right upon which either as a punishment or a protection, expediency and state policy have not put a limit. In all matters not of inherent God-given right, the authority of the State to exercise such discrimination as will inure to its own protection, cannot be seriously disputed, and certainly noth-' ing is of more vital importance to the State, or more desirable for it to secure by wholesome regulation than an intelligent and spotless exercise of the elective privilege. Granted, then, that the people may justly restrict suffrage, it does not follow that the restriction could be vindicated except upon an equable basis and for the public welfare. I read from the minority report for the purpose of correcting an erroneous impression therein contained, and of demonstrating that the people have sought merely intelligent suffrage, although by a different test than the one now proposed. In that report is the following statement: " As respects the extension of suffrage to colored the same as to white citizens of the State, the undersigned submit that if the regeneration of political society is to be sought in the incorporation of this element into the constituency, it must be done by the direct and explicit vote of the electors. We are foreclosed from any 201 other course by the repeated action of the State. of Jove, and that a larceny of goods is necessarily In 1846 this question was submitted in a sepa- a taking of reason. The only true test of intellirate article to be voted on, at the same time gence is that which can be applied directly to with the Constitution itself; and was nega- mind itself, and be answered from the brain. tived by a vote of 223,884 to 85,306. It Of every ten opponents of equal suffrage, at was again submitted in 1850, and was again least nine, and perhaps the ten, will declare that defeated by a vote of 337,984 to 197,503. A they oppose it because they know'some colored similar submission was provided by a concurrent men whom they regard as incapable of voting resolution of the legislature of 1859, which, by intelligently. Hardly in one case out of a hunthe neglect of the State officer to provide for its dred will either color or poverty be mentioned as publication, was defeated; but its fate may a disqualification. Therefore, every other reasonfairly be regarded as further evidence of the able hypothesis being excluded, an alleged want of indifference of the public toward a change. intelligence in a portion of the colored population The undersigned are of opinion that the Con- appears to be the sole reason why the elective franvention will depart from its representative char- chise has been denied to many as well qualified for acter if, after these repeated manifestations of the it as the Caucasian race. If, then, ignorance in a popular will, it should enact this extension of the colored citizen renders it unsafe for him to deposit suffrage without such a separate submission." the ballot, is not ignorance in any other citizen The fact that equal suffrage to colored persons equally dangerous to the welfare of the State? Conwas defeated by a large majority of the votes cast sequently, if there is to be any modification of the upon that question in 1846, and also upon a sub- elective franchise, let it be based upon a groundsequent submission in 1860, does not prove that work of principle, looking only to intelligence and the people of this State regard color as a dis- intrinsic worth, and.making no invidious distincqualification for the elective franchise; because tion between those equally capable of its exercise. the Constitution adopted in 1846 allowed to This proposition has commended itself to my colored citizens who had paid tax upon freeholds judgment: worth $250 the privilege of voting. If color 1. Because under our system of elections, by had been the objection, suffrage would not secret ballot, it is absolutely impossible for a have been conferred upon any of that class. Nor citizen to vote intelligently unless he can write, does it follow from the result just stated, that the or at least read the words contained in his ballot. people desire a property qualification; because, if Our elective system is founded upon the theory in favor of such a qualification, they would have that every elector will indicate at the polls his applied it to all classes and complexions; but in preference for officers or principles, in such a 1826 the electors of the State Aecided almost unan- manner as not to be subjected to an undue infiuimously against suffrage by chattels instead of by ence, and so that his action shall not be elsewhere men. There has never been an election held in this called in question. The person who is unable to State but that colored men have been allowed to prepare his own ballot makes his exercise of the vote, and by the adoption of three seperate Constitu- elective privilege a mere chance in a lottery. He tions, the people have thrice proclaimed the fact might with equal propriety draw from a wheel that color should.not be made the test of voting the folded ballot that he is about to deposit; capacity, and that the Declaration of Independence though intending to vote for John Doe, he can was not a brazen falsehood. At three separate never testify, nor feel absolutely certain, that he elections, in 1826 and in 1845 and '46, they did not vote for Richard Roe. The purity of sought to declare that men and not money should the ballot-box has been aptly termed the palcontrol the government, and few will now be ladium of our liberties, and in a Republic the found to deny that the most lowly citizen is government is simply an assertion of power by a entitled to equal protection and equal privileges majority of electors. But what evidence have with the most opulent, and that the powers we that the result of any election is an expresof government are needed principally for the sion of opinion by the majority, so long as, in protection of the weak against' the strong. the very nature of things, a portion of the electors The vote against equal suffrage to colored per- cannot know what opinion they have expressed? sons proved only that some of that class were not Perhaps next to the actual and corrupt purchase regarded as sufficiently intelligent to properly dis- of votes, nothing has contributed more to electioi charge the duties of an elector, and the possession frauds than the struggle for that class who must of property, that most unreliable of all indices of necessarily vote at the dictation of others. mental vigor or culture,was retained as a condition, Through ignorance, the door is opened wide for a norfor the purpose of representing property in pref- deception more henious than statutory crimes. erence to humanity,but in deference to the antiqua- The trusted guardian of another's principles is ted political heresy, originating at a period when given a double voice and a double power to be learning was confined to the monasteries, that the used either for a good or an evil purpose-and number of an individual's ideas could be determined where is the difference in effect whether a person by counting his coin, and that wealth and wisdom casts five votes in his own name, or one for himself were synonymous terms. But in this age, marked and four for his political wards. It is evident, by the general diffusion of letters, by enterprise therefore, that for the safety and welfare of the and monetary fluctuations, an argument for prop- State, the elective system should be so regulated erty as a test of knowledge would be an argument as to require from any person merely the expresto prove that the child of opulent parentage is a sion of his own opinion, and not to render 8age from birth, like Minerva, the personified sym necessary the delegation of that privilege to bol of wisdom springing full-armed from the brain another. 26 202 2. A very great advantage to be derived from pared to indorse them, and they must be post. the operation of this amendment would be the poned until a more propitious hour. The home. stimulus given to education, not that education ly apothegm "Half a loaf is better than no under our democratic system should be made bread," is as true in the political as in the domescompulsory, but the State, for its own protection tic world. And that is not a wise statesmanship and prosperity, should give to it a proper encour- that rejects a beneficent measure because it falls agement. The State has already provided oppor- short of what is desirable, but at the time unattunities for a common school education to all her tailable, nor is he a true friend of progress who children, and further than this it seems proper seeks to accomplish in a day the work properly that the public purse should not be opened. The allotted to years. Now it is desirable that every State has done this for two reasons, both in effect citizen should be an intelligent elector, but he the same: cannot be made such by being simply so declared; 1st. Because it would be better defended and but by patiently waiting under the operation of protected by an intelligent people. the proposed test; but few years will elapse 2d. Because that knowledge which would before intelligent suffrage, at least, by male enable a person better to advance his own inter- citizens of lawful age, will become universal. ests would make him at the same time a more And if it be true that the extension of suffrage useful public citizen. is resisted on the ground of incompetency, This provision is not in the nature of a penalty, the people of the State will have, through the because no person is required to attend school or separate submission of this question, an opporto learn, but it is in effect saying to the young tunity to render a distinct verdict thereon, and men, every opportunity is offered, and you have whatever the verdict may be, the matter of the plenty of time to acquire an education; but, if elective franchise will be decided and settled for with these opportunities you neglect to advance years at least. If the objection be to incompeyour own interests by preparing yourselves for tency, the failure to submit a limiting clause based the' ordinary business of life, you are not upon sound principles of general application, may proper persons to be trusted with the gov-endanger the adoption of any desirable reforms ernment of the State. And surely the liberties submitted in the Constitution itself. The objecof the people cannot be intrusted to the tions that may be urged to this amendment care. of any person who, now arriving at are referred to in the report of the majority of manhood, has not learned to read the English lan- the committee, and are substantially these: guage, or to write his name. Under the opera- 1. Literary acquirements are not a criterion of tion of this proposed provision there is hardly a voting capacity. young man in the State but that in less than two 2. Some who pat taxes would not be allowed years would be able to read and write. The to vote. effect, therefore, would be to prepare a certain 3. Corrupt inspectors of election would violate class to become better citizens, or by limitation of the law for partisan purposes. suffrage, to render them less powerful for harm. What force there may be in these objections, it The operation of this measure would not be is proper briefly to consider. As to the first, it harsh; no penalty is exacted, and the number to be may be admitted that some men of the higheffected is comparatively small. It is not retrospec- est literary attainments are perfectly unreliable tive, as it deprives no citizen of a privilege which in matters of business, and evince no practical he has hitherto enjoyed, and even in its future ap- knowledge of the affairs of government, and plication it looks with charity upon those whom that some of the best minds of the State have misfortune has deprived of the means of acquiring not received even the rudiments of an education, or of displaying the required proficiency. It will but these admissions prove nothing. With the go into effect at a time, and its provisions are present opportunities for education, it will hardly such that those who have contributed, either by be disputed that the number of teachable young their means or personal services, to carry the Re- men approaching the age of twenty-one, who canpublic safely through its struggle for integrity, not read and Write, is very limited, and the mental will still continue, to the same extent, to direct its capacity of those who have not mastered the alphadestinies. The infant in his cradle, twenty-one years bet is doubtless little superior to their proficency. ago, when the last Convention was held, has be- I do not mean to say that all who can read and come the full grown man and the elector of to-day. write are for that reason intelligent electors; but During this long intervening period the arts and I do say that it is among the impossibilities for a sciences have progressed and society has become person to vote both intelligently and independently enlightened to such an extent, that the people by ballot unless he can himself prepare the ticket. must be prepared for greater enlightenment in the This proposition will not admit of argument-it is government - not that principles and rules of a postulate. Under a viva voce system of elecright are fluctuating, but because prejudice and tions the same rule would not apply. Now, what bigotry gradually vanish as the light of reason milder test of intelligence can be devised, so as to grows brighter, and a fuller measure of justice include every one possibly competent, than to can be safely meted out to a people that have ascertain the voter's ability to read the Constitubecome better educated in truth. Probably, how- tion and write his name. Perhaps it may be ever, in this body, there are delegates who will in thought a more serious objection that certain some instances refrain from advocating proposi- tax payers would not be allowed to vote. Untions that seem more equitable than certain exist- doubtedly the amount of tax paid by this class ing provisions of our organic law, for the simple would be exceedingly small, but if a single farthing reason that the mass of the people are unpre- were unjustly taken, the crime would be as great 203 as though it were a million. Still it is difficult the court, by an erroneous opinion, may have subto discover greater iniquity in taxing a person.jected a suitor to costs and delayed or thwarted incapable through prescribed forms of expressing the due course of justice, but these are not suffian opinion, than in taxing him who has voted cient reasons for abolishing both court and jury. against an expenditure which he conscientiously Bribery and corruption may in some instances regarded as unlawful and unjust. But in either have crept into legislative halls, and written upon case the individual, if he expects to continue a the statute book a pernicious enactment, but it member of society, must submit to what is deemed does not therefore follow that all legislation should for the greatest good of the greatest number. be prohibited, and society permitted to relapse The cry of " no taxation without representa- into a state of anarchy. It will not answer for tion " was a watchword in the revolution; and it the builder to reject from the temple a fitting stone has descended to us sanctified by the hallowed lest it should be marred by Gentiles. A word history and tradition of that period. Converted upon the practical operation of this amendment, into amaxim, it should be retained and perpetu- and I will not further delay the Convention. ated, for although like all generalities, not strictly The test can be applied at the polls, and if the true, it embodies a principle that should not be officer should be guilty of occasional fraud the ignored in government. States and communities, citizen certainly could not be. If, through colluhowever, never have, and probably never will act sion with the inspectors, it is feared that an illegal strictly upon the rule there asserted. There is voter would be permitted to repeat from memory not a single class deprived of. suffrage by the words that he could not read, authority could be article proposed by the committee (except paupers, given the challenging party to amplify the text and they sometimes ought to be taxed) but that by the selection of another clause. But this matare liable to taxation. Women, including mature ter is placed under the control of the Legislature maidens and widows, are non-voters, but never- by the provision authorizing that body to make theless tax payers. Minors are subject to taxa- laws for ascertaining by proper proofs, the citition, and so are aliens holding real estate, and this zens entitled to suffrage, and it is to be presumred list could be extended to a formidable catalogue that that body can so provide, that honesty will be of special cases. By act of Congress all incomes the rule, and fraud the exception, in the execution derived in the United States, whether by citizens or of this portion of the organic law. The only aliens, whether by residents or non-residents, are other objection that could possibly be urged, is subject to taxation. We are often misled by high the abuse of the challenging power, causing delay sounding terms. The just and unconditional rule and vexation at the polls.' This could be done is not "there shall be no taxation without to a slight extent, but, it is not for the interest representation," but it is this "there shall be of any political party to attempt such abuses, no taxation without adequate protection," and and under existing laws, it is not impossible for taxation of non-voting classes has been fully similar annoyances to be practiced, nor can there be justified on the ground that the taxes assessed devised, any system however carefully guarded, upon them are but a just compensation and that the machinations of the vicious may not equivalent for the protection afforded them by abuse. Here, then, is.proposed a regulation of sufthe government. And if in this case any com- frage that recognizes no superior race or privileged plaint should arise at bearing the burdens class in the human family. Striking at an imposed by others, such complaint can properly undoubted source of corruption, it will tend to come only from the delinquent himself, in whose elevate and purify the ballot box. By it the power it lies to give a speedy application of the State gives a gentle and effectual encouragement remedy. This question of taxation and representa- to the education of all her sous. A rule of action tion, like all other questions, is subject to regula- is suggested against which can be urged fewer tiou, the State having reference to its own safety objections than against almost any other part of perpetuity Now, there is the third objection, to our elective system. A principle is embodied, wit: the bias and improper conduct of inspectors, which regards the intrinsic merits of the citizen and this, of course, has reference to the practical and not his pecuniary accidents. While property working of the law; and so long as has, in some instances, been practically valued men are human, and not angelic, we must higher than manhood, I think in the light of toexpect frauds and misdemeanors. There are, day we need not hesitate to pronounce, not money, doubtless, frauds in registrations, frauds in do- but intelligence, the superior foundation stone of positing ballots, frauds in the canvassing of votes, government. Every consideration, whether of but there is only one practical rule of constitu- right or of expediency, and every assurance, tutional legislation, and that is based upon the excepting only that guaranteed by local experipresumption that every sworn officer will do his ence, favors this proposition, and is not the prinduty. Whenever we overlook this rule, and ciple worthy of a trial. And if, through the launch out into the field of supposition and operation of causes which human foresight cannot speculation as to what officers may do,.we are divine, this measure upon trial should failof pracbrought to an abrupt pause. It is of course, wise tical benefit, we shall, by its submission, have an to act on the side of safety, and guard, if possible, opportunity to learn one lesson of great value for every avenue to fraud, but the wheels of govern- the future, for the people will decide whether or ment would soon cease to revolve if legislators not the ballot-box shall be used for obtaining a Were to hesitate in the introduction of a salutary correct expression of opinion, and whether they measure lest some depositary of a trust should desire the government to be conducted by chance prove faithless. Bias and fraud may have invaded or by system, by money or by intelligence. tile jury-box, and deprived a citizen of his rights- Mr. HAIND-I would ask the gentleman from 204 Dutchess [Mr. Carpenter] to withdraw his pro- known of two or three instances where Constitu. posed substitute and introduce it as an independ- tions submitted in this manner have been voted eut proposition. I desire to vote upon both down, and it will almost always be so, where Conpropositions, and I hope a vote will be had upon stitutions are submitted in patches. If you choose tach of them separately: but because the propo- to have a separate submission next year, and let sition of the gentleman [Mr. Carpenter] is in no the people then decide on the proposition, very sense a substitute for the amendment offered by well. Our committee was very decided on this the gentleman from Ontario [Mr. Folger], and has point. We wished to submit the Constitution that no relation to it, but relates to a different subject should be framed, to the people of the State, with I hope the amendment will be withdrawn. this question, "gIs this Constitution preferable to Mr. GREELEY-I trust the committee will the one you now live under? If so, vote 'yes,' allow me now to say a few words generally of the if not, vote it down." If we send out a Constitu. course I intend to pursue in regard to the report tion with strings of separate submissions hanging before us, and then to make a very few remarks around it here and there, that Constitution will in reply to the able speech of the gentleman from not be accepted. The people will say there is Dutchess [Mr. Carpenter]. In the first place, it too much complexity and convolution of one thing has been indicated to me by the majority of the with another. They will say, "If the Convention committee that they expect of me the general is capable of making a Constitution let them present defense of our report I propose, if the Con- one, and we are capable of deciding whether we vention will allow me, to do that, in remarks like it or not." But here is a proposition for a sepawhich I shall make at the close of the debate, in rate submission of this proposed section, and very Convention, and not in Committee of the Whole. likely of others, for adoption or rejection by the I do not propose to meet every objection point by people;. so that a man cannot tell what he is point, nor to make a speech in reply to every voting for. He votes for a proposition and 'it is attack on the report, because that would require carried; but another proposition, which he votes me to occupy such a portion of the time as no against, is also carried; and thus the Constitution member, not even the chairman of a committee, becomes something which he does not want, and has a right to claim. I shall, therefore, reserve which he would rather have had rejected. I say my general defense of the views embodied in the that these separate submissions have always been report of the committee for the close of the de- regarded with disfavor by the people, as they bate, if the Convention will allow me to close it, were at the time of the ratification of our present after all the amendments shall have been consid- Constitution. I trust we will have none of them. ered in committee, and when the subject is finally I thought that the report of the committee was before the Convention. I give notice now that I not fairly treated by the gentleman [Mr. Carpenshall ask the committee to sit out the debate on ter] in his remarks. I will, therefore, read from this report to-morrow night-I mean the debate the report, to allow members to judge whether we, which shall precede the discussion in the Con- in effect, charged that inspectors of election would vention. For whatever may be decided in the be guilty of fraud. The committee say: Committee of the Whole will not be 'conclusive, "Nor have we chosen to adopt any of the but will be reviewed in the Convention. schemes of disfranchising illiterate persons which Mr. VEEDER-I desire to rise to a point of have been referred to us. We freely admit that order. I do not understand that the remarks ignorance is a public evil and peril, as well as a of the gentleman from Westchester [Mr. Greeley] personal misfortune, and we are ready to march apply to the subject now under consideration in abreast with the foremost in limiting its baleful Committee of the Whole. influence. But men's relative capacity is not The CHAIRMAN - The gentleman from West- absolutely measured by their literary acquirechester [Mr. Greeley] is not strictly in order. ments; and the State requires the illiterate, Mr. GREELEY- I think, sir, it was my right equally with others, to be taxed for her support, to open the debate, and to that end I tried to get and to shed their blood in her defense. We the floor when the Convention went into Con- prefer that she shall persist in her noble efforts mittee of the Whole. I simply desire to give to instruct and enlighten all her sons by means notice that I shall ask the committee to sit out less invidious and more genial than disfranchise. the debate on this report to-morrow. And now, ment. Were there no other consideration impelling with regard to the proposition offered by the gen- to this decision, we should rest on and defer to the tleman from Dutches [Mr. Carpenter]. He pro- forcible truths, that ability to read and write is poses that the amendment offered by him shall be not absolute, but comparative; that inspectors submitted to a vote of the people as a separate of election are fallible and swayed by like proposition. The committee have had this matter passions with other men —and that they might very fully under consideration, and they decided be tempted, in an exciting and closely contested that they would propose no separate submissions of election, to regard with a partial fondness, almost questions to be determined by the people. Gentlemen parental, the literary acquirements of those must be aware that such submissions tend to con- claimants of the franchise who were notoriously fuse, and not only confuse, but alienate the people. desirous of voting the ticket of those inspectors If we should go to the people with a Constitution own party, while applying a far sterner and more submitted in pieces, it would almost certainly be critical rule to those who should proffer the oppovted down. I am opposed to all proposals for site ballots." separate submissions, because, if the plan is There are times when the coantest is so close in adopted, the people will vote down the Constitu- this State that less than one per cent. of the tio which we shall submit to them. I have entire vote will elect a Governor, or an electoral 205 ollege. Men are challenged in a given district to vote. I trust the Convention will be careful is to their ability to read and write. The board about interpolating this dangerous provision into snow perfectly well how many of the challenged the Constitution. roters are intending to vote the ticket of the Mr. GRAVES - I desire to ask the chairman najority of that board, and how many of them of the Committee on the Rightof Suffrage whethem will vote the opposite ticket. I ask, if you do he intends to make an additional report on the aot put your inspectors in a most invidious and. resolution that was submitted, and which will be lisagreeable position? A man comes up and says, found on page 45 of the Journal. "That is the ticket, sir; I am voting for your The CHAIRMAN - The Chair will inform the party; here it is." " Stop I you are challenged." gentleman from Herkimer [Mr. Graves] that that He undertakes to read and write; and the board question is not now before the Committee of the decides that he does not read well enough (and it Whole; therefore his inquiry cannot be made must be a matter of comparison of degree whether unless by permission of the Committee. he does or not) to be a voter, and they reject the Mr. GREELEY - I will answer that question vote, although it is a vote offered for their own in the proper time, when the proposition is made party. In a moment, another man comes up.; he to amend. is known to vote the opposite ticket; he. is Mr. SPENCER - I desire to submit to the genchallenged, and he undertakes to read and tlemen of the committee who are discussing this write, and accomplishes something which he question, whether it is not premature to now calls reading and writing. Do you not put discuss a separate submission of the negro the board in a most invidious position, and suffrage question. Toward the close of the is it not human nature, that they will look a proceedings of the Convention of 1846, after little more kindly, a little more encouragingly, the framing of the Constitution was pretty much upon the literary efforts of a man who is going to perfected, a committee was appointed for the pur. vote the " right" ticket than if he were going to pose of proposing a plan of submission to the vote the opposite ticket? Let us look at this people. It is proper that that mode should be matter of challenging. The committee desires adopted now. Therefore, I suggest whether this that there may be the fewest possible grounds for whole question of separate submission had not vote-challenging at the polls. Settle beforehand better be deferred until it properly comes up in who are entitled to vote and who are not. Let that shape. It will save a good deal of the time all be done coolly, calmly, and dispassionately, of the committee, and leave time to properly frame away from the crowd and heat and ndise of an the article under consideration. election. Let the board, deliberately sitting as Mr. FOLGER- I desire to' ask what would be registering officers, quietly decide who are and the effect on the amendment I proposed if this who are not voters. I would not have any man substitute should be adopted. challenged except specifically. My way would The CHAIRMAN - The Chair is of the opinion be to have no man challenged except on the oath that under the rule which has governed in all of an elector. You and I have seen at the cases of this kind, both propositions are before polls, many times, challenges which were willful, the committee, and the last one being voted upon, wanton, mischievous, annoying and exasperating. whether it is carried or lost would not necessarily Suppose you and I go to vote. There is carry with it or have any effect upon the pr6posia crowd at the polls. Your party or tion of the gentleman from Ontario [Mr. Folger], my party have two hundred majority in which is separate and distinct. that district. The challengers of the minority Mr. FOLGER-And it can be renewed at any are instructed to delay voting as much as possible. time. At the last Presidential election, there were thou- The CHAIRMAN-It is before the committee, sands who were ready and anxious to vote at the and in the event of the one proposition being polls in New York city, but who could not vote, carried or lost, the Chair would still consider it its and were turned away. An eminent delegate in duty to put the proposition of the gentleman from this Convention [Mr. Opdyke] was thus deprived Ontario [Mr. Folger] before the committee. of his right of suffrage. Suppose the challenger Mr. BICKFORD-Is it in order to offer another were instructed to challenge everybody as not amendment? knowing how to read and write, and by that The CHAIRMAN-The Chair is of the opinion means he should keep out three hundred votes, that, there being two amendments pending before lie would probably at least reduce a hundred the the committee, it is not in order now to offer anmajority of the opposite party. I dread these nu- otlhr. merous challenges. They will create mischief at Mr. BICKFORD-I would inquire of the genthe polls. You may be challenged, I may be (and tieman from Dutchess [Mr. Carpenter], through I am sometimes said to write illegibly, by men of the Chair, whether he intends that persons shall bad taste). [Laughter.] Who does not see that write their names in the English language? It is this is a very dangerous and mischievous power well known that there are a great many persons to put into the hands of challengers to object to of foreign birth (for instance, Germans), who writ9 your vote and mine on the ground that we do not their names in such a manner that no Yankee-can know how to read or write; for boards of inspect- read them. No inspector of election, unless he ors are men, like you and me-partisan, if you were a Dutchman or German, would be able to please-and the majority will have their prefer. read them and say that they were not the hand. ences, and they will be accused of favoring their writing of their names. It seems to me, thereParty if they decide that a challenged voter of the fore, for that reason, if for no other, the plrposition OPposite party foes not read and write well enough of the gentleman should hardly be entertained by 206 the Convention. It certainly ought to specify white men had rights. The struggle that the what language is intended to be written. people has been engaged in was to see whether Mr. CARPENTER -The English language, black men had rights; and the great Republican if you choose. I do not think it is a very prac- party in which I was educated, the great Repub-,tical question, any way. lican party that drew its life blood from Thomas Mr. BICKFORD -There are many men well Jefferson, the author of that sentiment I have educated in foreign languages who are incompe- read here to-day, has found itself in the latter days tent to write their names in the English language, of these thirty-three years with its champion and yet, are intelligent men, capable of writing standing in this hall, and its champion standing their names and reading in their own language. in yonder hall laying down the doctrine, in Mr. M. I. TOWNSEND -I am opposed to the so many words, that men have no natural proposition of the gentleman from Dutchess [Mr. right to participate in the administration of Carpenter], for the reason that I believe his doc- the government under which they live. And, trine is a great political heresy. The doctrine I why? It was the necessity of the position. refer to is the doctrine on which the gentleman God had made of one blood all the nations of the in his remarks seems to base the proposition earth. Their consciences told them that the black which he has presented. I differ entirely from the man was of common origin and of common desgentleman in the idea that he presents, that tiny with themselves. It was necessary to disvoting-theexercise of tjie elective franchise, is not franchise the black man, and how could it be a matter of right. While I have no right to criticise done? By disfranchising the white and black the opinions of gentleman upon this floor, my friend together. Sir, I believe in no such doctrine, I from Dutchess [Mr. Carpenter] will allow me to say believe, sir, that doctrine (pointing to a volume that I am sorry it should first be announced upon containing the Declaration of Independence), and this floor, by a gentleman professing the same I believe in the doctrine laid down in another political faith with myself, that men have not the book a little more sacred, to which we all on this right to participate in the administration of the floor yield credence; and from these two sentigovernment under which we live. This, sir, was ments, first, that governments derive their just not the doctrine of our fathers. When this gov- powers from the consent of the governed, and from ernment was formed-when our fathers found it that other sentiment, " whatsoever ye would that necessary to revolt from the British government- men should do unto you, do ye even so to by common consent, they laid down a very differ- them," you may establish a government that ent doctrine. And that doctrine was enunciated shall be worthy of men; you may establish a. from the pen of the father of republicanism-the government that shall become the race; you same republicanism which I profess to-day,; the may establish a government that shall be honor — republicanism in which I was educated, and, by able to the race itself, and to the Creator of the blessing of God, the republicanism in which I that race that presides above it, and upon no hope to die. And it was this: " We hold these other principle. And it is because of the violation truths to be self-evident, that all men are created of this principle that I am opposed to disfranchisequal; that they are endowed by their Creator ing any man, and denying him the right to give with certain inalienable rights, and among these his consent to the powers of the government are life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness, that under which he lives, even if that man should not to secure these rights governments are instituted, be able to read and write. I wish, sir, that every deriving their just powers from the consent of the man in the community was educated. I wish that governed." Then, sir, the government, if it has every man had the advantage of education in his any just powers, must derive those powers from early youth. But we have notable examples of whom? From men who can read and write? From men in the community, not only of giant intellect, men who have had the benefits of education? but of noble patriotism and large views, who never From those who are governed, whoever they are, learned to read and write until their dying days. whether those men be born on these shores or I have in my mind the example of a man who, upon foreign shores; whether those men have during the war, in his section exercised as one complexion or another complexion; whether much influence as any man almost in the country, those men be Protestant or Catholic; whether they for good. I refer to Funk, of Illinois, a man of be Jew qr Gentile, if they be governed, the gov- immense wealth, a man of giant intellect, a man ernment, to be just; must derive its powers from of as noble patriotism as any man in this counthe consent of the governed. These, sir, were the try, and yet his early advantages had left him doctrines in which I was educated. We call these without the power of reading or writing. republican. I believe if the republican party has The men who know what was done by that any doctrine to-day, tiat is the doctrine of the man during the war for the preservation of republican party; and I say, sir, that republicans our Union, in his nation's struggles and efforts, cannot afford to swerve from the ground that gov- would put his right to vote in Illinois far higher, ernments only derive their jusq powers from the and the importance of his voting far higher, than consent of the governed. It was the universal they would place that of an intelligent and wickeddoctrine of the people of the United States until hearted rebel who happened to be located in the 1834. In 1834 great and agitating questions State of Illinois, and who durst not, from his arose. The slavery question then got a hold position, take open ground against the government. upon the feelings of a portion of the people of Mr. FRANCIS —I would like to inquire of this country, and that agitation has now prevailed the Chair whether a motion to lay the proposition for 33 years, and during that agitation we have of the gentleman from Dutchess [Mr. Carpenter] almost forgotten that it was a conceded fact that on the table would be in order at this time. 207 The CHAIRMAN - The Chair would inform the proposition of the gentleman from Dutchess the gentleman that no such proposition can be [Mr. Carpenter]. made while in Committee of the Whole. The Mr. CARPENTER —With the permission of question before the committee is on the proposi- the Convention, I will withdraw my amendment. tion of the gentleman from Dutchess [Mr. Car- Mr. CURTIS - I have an amendment which I penter]. offer to the first section. Mr. FfLLER - I am opposed to the proposition Mr. HAND - Is the amendment of the gentleof the gentleman from Dutchess [Mr. Carpenter], man from Ontario [Mr. Folger] before the combut at the same time I think that the gentleman mittee? from Rensselaer [Mr. M. I. Townsend], perhaps, The CHAIRMAN- It is. has laid down the proposition upon which he pro- The SECRETARY proceeded to read the poses to base his vote a little too broadly. There amendment of Mr. Curtis, as follows: are no great political axioms which can be received In the first line of section 1 for " man" read without some qualification. The qualification for the "person." elective franchise, undoubtedly, as a general propo- In the fifth line of same section, after the word sition, is manhood; and even it is necessary to take "he" insert "or she," and instead of "his," read that proposition with some qualification. What "to." they should be I do not now propose to take the time In the seventeenth line of same section after ofthe committee to discuss. Ihave not risen for the the word " his" insert " or her." purpose of discussing any abstract theory, but In the eighteenth line after the word "he" simply the question whether it would be right, in insert " or she." the abstract, that the voter should have intelli- Mr. BARNARD - should like to ask whether gence or none. I propose to put my vote upon this is in order. How can we ever get to the this question upon a different basis. Sir, we have proposition of the gentleman from Ontario [Mr. not been sent here to make a new Constitution. Folger] if amendments are to be offered which We have a Constitution already, under which we have no reference whatever to his amendment. have lived for the last twenty years, and experi- The CHAIRMA'N - The Chair is of the opinion ence has proved it to be a very good Constitution. that two amendments can be submitted at the Experience has also demonstrated that in it there same time in Committee of the Whole, separate are some defects, and it is to amend those defects and distinct in their character, but that the fact that we have been sent here, and not to recast it that two amendments are pending precludes the and make it new. I think that, in our action, we offering of amendments to either. should confine ourselves to the remedying, sub- Mr. CURTIS-I don't wish to preclude amendstantially, of those defects which experience has ments to the proposition of the gentleman from pointed out, and, having remedied them, to go Ontario [Mr. Folger]. My preference would be home and submit the result of our labors to the that the vote be first taken on his proposition. people. Now, the want of some such qualifica- Mr. LAPHAM-I desire to inquire whether the tion to vote as that proposed by the gentleman proposition to still further amend the amendment from Dutchess [Mr. Carpenter] is not one of the of the gentleman from Ontario [Mr. Folger] is in defects which calls for amendment, and is not order. one of the defects which has called us together. The CHAIR-The Chair is of the opinion that The people do not, or at least my constituents two amendments being now pending, no further do not, ask for any such qualification for the ex- proposition in the way of amendment can be at ercise of the elective franchise to be inserted in present entertained. the Constitution. They have not sent us here for Mr. CONGER-I regret very much to differ the purpose of inserting any such qualification, from the ruling of the Chair. I hope, without and for that reason I propose to vote against it. taking formal exception to the ruling that the It may look very well in the abstract. Like a gentleman who made the last amendment will great many other propositions, it may sound very have the goodness to withdraw it for the prewell in theory. A very good argument may be sent, in order that further amendments germane made on either side of the question, but the to the amendment of the gentleman from Ontario answer to it all is that the people, our constituents, [Mr. Folger] may be acted upon by the comdo not ask for it. We are in great danger of mlttee. I do not think that we are likely to doing too much. There is a very great deal more proceed here with any credit or satisfaction to danger of this Convention doing too much than ourselves if this rule of proposing amendments, there is of its doing too little. There is but little by way of substitution, having no relation whatWork to be done. There are but few amendments ever that is germane to the original proposition, wanted to be made, not more than half a dozen sub- be proceeded with. stantial ones, and if we confine ourselves to themwe Mr. CURTIS - I shall be most happy to withcall do up our work in five or six weeks and go home, draw my amendment, in order that amendments and submit it for acceptance or rejection by the having strict relation to the amendment of the people. If we undertake to introduce all these gentleman from Ontario [Mr. Folger] be substiine spun theories into the Constitution, if we tuted, with the understanding that when that is spend all our time in discussing that, we shall disposed of, my own amendment will be in order. get up some work which the people will not Mr. LAPHAM —I offer the following amend. ratify. It is, therefore, because the people do ment to the amendment of my colleague [Mr. not desire it, because they do not wish any such Folger]. atenudment to be made, whether it is right or The SECRETARY proceded to read the amend. wrong in the abstract, that I shall vote against ment of Mr. Lapham, as follows: 208 Strike out the word thirty" in line three, section ohe, and insert ten. Strike out lines eight to twelve, inclusive, of the same section, except the word no" in the twelfth line, and:insert: Provided, That persons convicted of felony or bribery, unless pardoned or otherwise restored to civil rights, and persons judicially declared to be of unsound mind or incapable of managing their affairs, shall not be entitled to vote. Mr. VEEDER —I would inquire whether the last preposed amendment to the motion of the gentleman from Ontario [Mr. Folger] is divisible, so that we can take a vote on so much of it as proposes to amend line three before considering that part striking out the proviso of the section, and substituting another in its place. The CHAIRMAN -The Chair is of opinion 'that it is divisible. Mr. FOLGER-I ask that the Secretary may read the amendment proposed by my colleague [Mr. Lapham] again. The SECRETARY proceeded to read the amendment. Mr. FOLGER, — I accept the amendment of the gentleman [Mr. Lapham]. Mr. BICKFORD —I now offer as an amend merit to the proposition, as it now stands, the following: The SECRETARY proceeded to read the amendment of Mr. Bickford, as follows: Amend section 1 by substituting the following for lines 8, 9 and 10: Provided, That persons judicially declared to be idiots, lunatics and habitual drunkards, and as such placed or being under guardianship, and persons convicted of felony or bribery, unless pardoned or otherwise restored to civil rights, shall not be entitled to vote. Mr. GREELEY —I beg the committee to consider well, and to remember that these propositions have been thoughtfully regarded in committee, and to look at the effect of an amendment like this. Under the amendment as it now stands, the inspectors of election are sitting in a board, and endeavoring to determine who are entitled to vote. Here comes up a raving lunatic-notoriously so. Everybody knows he is crazy. He comes and offers his vote, and the inspectors cannot refuse his vote unless he has been judicially declared to be of unsound mind. We very well know that there are lunatics everywhere in the State, in reference to whose lunacy there has never been a judicial determination. If I understand the proposition all these other classes would be entitled,to vote, because they have not been officially declared as belonging to those classes. I must believe the gentleman has not considered the effect of this thing sufficiently. Now, as to pauperism, let us look at these facts. I personally participated in an election where a member of Congress was chosen directly by votes brought out of the almshouse in New York for for that purpose,the intent being, as the effect was, to elect a member of Congress by the votes brought from that institution. When the subject came before Congress, Congress decided that that was not an election, and sent it back to the people, and another choice took place. And, yet, if wo make this amendment we shall see that it is perfectly appropriate and proper for men managing almshouses practically to control that matter. There are in the New York almshouse, five hundred persons who are paupers. Do not we know that the men who control that almshouse will contrive to let out such men to vote? I suppose that cannot be questioned. I know that last year the almshouse was largely depopulated to send away into the several wards, men to vote in that election, on the ground that they had not lost their residence by being in the almshouse two years. They could be sent back to the original wards, where they could vote. You know very well that the political party which has not control of the almshouse will not get any of those votes. They will be compelled, nay, they will be told "If you go out to vote except as we say you cannot come back; we will shut you out, or put you on bread and water." If that were not so, they would say, "If you do not give us roast turkey to-morrow, we will vote against you at the next election." They understand that. I beg the committee to look 'at the effect If it was giving five hundred or five thousand men the right of independent voting in this State, that would be one thing. But if you give forty or fifty men, who control the almshouses of the State, the control of two or three thousand votes, I do not believe that is in accordance with the republicanism even, which has been so eloquently expounded by the gentleman from Rensselaer [Mr. M. I. Townsend]. I believe there has been great corruption in the doling out of votes from the almshouses in support of the political party which has control of them; and I trust this committee is not disposed to make any 'such change in this proposition reported by the Committee on the Right of Suffrage. Mr. LAPHAM - I have considered well the subject involved in the main portion of this amendment. I believe I comprehend fully the difficulties in the way of the portions of the report of the committee which I ask to have stricken out. A word, in the first place, upon the first branch of it, which is to strike out "thirty days," and insert " ten days." Ten days' citizenship and ten days' residence in the district is prescribed as a qualification of an elector. This makes the rule uniform, and allows every person who has been long enough a resident in a district to become a registered voter- to exercise the elective franchise, for that is put at six days. There is no occasion for excluding all the other classes of persons who come into an election district between the thirty days and. the last day of the registration, which is six days before the election, from the exercise of the right. -It seems to me too obvious that that period is too long. If the registry were required to be made thirty days before the election, that might be then proper, as there would be the necessity of requiring residence and citizenship for the same length of time. But to the main point involved in this matter. The proposition of the committee is that idiots, lunatics and persons under guardianship shall not vote. Who are embraced within that phraseology? Who do the committee intend to shut out from the right of the elective franchise by these expressions? What test would the board of inspectors have by 209 which to determine who comes within the de- rent, and, as I concede to the gentleman from scriptioni of persons under ~guardianship, unless it Rensselaer [Mr. M. I. Townsend], inalienable and be done in the way provided in the amendment I natural right-for I believe it is such I We must had the hornr to offer. Then we come to the elev- give to manhood the exercise of this right, except enth and twelfth lines, " No person who shall, at in the cases of personal disqualification, such as are any time within thirty days next preceding, have mentioned in the amendment which I have probeen a public pauper, shall vote at any election." posed; conviction for crime, or an adjudication in Twenty-nine days before an election, a person may some mode which determines the incapacity of have the misfortune to be an inmate of an alms- the individual to govern himself and manage his house, but on that very day he might inherit a affairs. Now Mr. Chairman, one single word fortune of a half a million of dollars; he walks upon the other branch of this proposition. The for twenty-nine days among the wealthy men of learned chairman of the committee [Mr. Greeley] the republic, and yet he is shut out at the polls, says: "Suppose a raving maniac were to come to and excluded from exercising the elective fran- the polls, should he be allowed to vote?" I answer chise. " No person who shall, at any time within the question, as I am entitled to in the exercise thirty days next preceding, have been a public of my birthright, by propounding another. Suppauper, shall have the right to vote." It does pose a person comes to the polls, who is not a not require that he shall be a pauper at the raving maniac, but who is challenged on the very moment of offering his vote, but he is ground that he is insane and a lunatic? How disqualified from the fact, that at any time within are the inspectors to determine that question? that period of thirty days, he has occupied that Are they to sit and try the case, and hear what unfortunate position I I have no doubt, but the witnesses may have to say, in order to deterthat the evil to which the learned chairman mine the state of mind of the person who offers of that committee [Mr. Greeley] refers is in his to vote? While the case of the raving maniac is locality, a great evil. I have no doubt at all, but an exception and rarely occurs at an election, the that the control which is exercised over this cases in which the question I have suggested may unfortunate class of persons amounts to an evil arise would be numerous at every election. as great as he estimates it, but, sir, this is not Therefore the simple test proposed by my amendthe only class of evils which is attendent upon the ment - that those persons and only such, who exercise of the elective franchise. Poverty is not have been adjudged by law to be of that descripa crime, and poverty should not be a disqualifica- tion, should be excluded, is, I submit to the tion. Dependency by one person upon another committee, the true test by which we should be is not a crime and should not be a disqualifica- governed in cases of this character. tion. If you are to shut out the inmates of alms- Mr. BARKER - I hope that the proposed houses from the exercise of the elective franchise amendment will be adopted by the committee, and by reason of this supposed condition of depend- particularly that part of it which proposes to eMe upon others, then you strike, if you carry out amend the provision, the effect of which is, as the principle, at a much larger class of persons;- reported by the committee, to make the inspectors at the tenants of the country who are under per- of election a tribunal, before which is to be tried, sonal obligations to their wealthy and influential on election day, the question whether the elector landlords-at all the recipients of private charity, is an idiot, or a lunatic, or a person under guarwho are much more under obligations to the do- dianship. It is well known in the experience of nors, than are the inmates of almshouses to their rmost of the members of this Convention, if not keepers, because they know that they are not all, that this involves the most delicate question indebted to their keepers for support and are that has ever been submitted to jurors or jurists. under no personal obligations to them; so if It has elicited great debate in our superior tributhe principles involved in this amendment nals, and there have been different opinions by were.to be carried out, a very large class many of the learned men of the land as to what of persons would be shut out from the constitutes an idiot or a lunatic. If a man has exercise of the elective franchise. I am opposed any reason, and has a right to hold and control Mr. Chairman, to adopting any test whatever for his property, then he has that other and more the elective franchise which is based on the sacred right - to vote I think it is impractipoverty of the citizen I It is unsound in theory cable. It will turn the election day into an occaand unsafe in principle and in practice; no sion for the calling of witnesses and trying this ulch principle ever has been recognized, or ever great question, when if they are, as proposed by the can be, consistently with the theory of our govern. amendment, adjudicated to be idiots or lunatics, or nent; and whenever men sit down to contemplate persons who do not have the control of their per. the relative position in which wealth and poverty sons or property, the record can be produced and places men, they should remember the warning the question disposed of by an examination of the Which has been written by one of the best of record. Upon the second proposition, that no Poets. person shall vote who has been a public pauper "Ill fares the land to hastening ills a prey within the thirty days preceding, I hope that this When wealth accumulates- and men decay; Convention will also exclude that from the section. Princes may fall, may flourish or may fade, It is an odious distinction against aged, infirm bealtanmakethem as a breath hath made; and unfortunate persons; and I apprehend that Bat a bold peasantry, their country's pride Whe oncedestroyed can never be supplied." the learned committee, and particularly the chairman [Mr. Greeley], could hardly have compreWe must give to manhood, whatever may be its hended how many persons will come within the condition, sir, the exercise of this great and inhe- contemplated proscription. In this State liberal 27 210 provisions have been made to distribute alms, and I apprehend the man is as much a public pauper who receives alms from the public treasury at his own home, in his own family, and surrounded by his own neighbors, as if he is taken to the hospital or the almshouse. He is a public pauper if he receives his support and maintenance for the time being from the public; it is a charge upon the public treasury, and his neighbors know the fact that le is a public pauper; lie falls within the definition thereafter, and by legislative action, he is a public pauper, though it may be a person who has the slightest infirmity, and for the slightest period of time. I hope the committee will exclude these two propositions. Mr. ANDREWS -Mr. Chairman, I am in favor of that portion of the amendment proposed to this committee, relating to the language of the proviso, which it is proposed to substitute in place of the language of the report of the committee. I am in favor of that language in respect to idiots, lunatics and persons under guardianship, because in my judgment it furnishes a safe aLd accurate means of ascertaining those persons who are disabled from voting by reason of the condition in which they may be, and I think it is better and safer that the standard should be settled by judicial determination, and not be left to the judgment or caprice of boards of inspectors, to try that question at every recurring election. I shall also vote in favor of that part of the amendment, which in substance provides for allowing paupers to vote, not that I think it would be in any fair sense a violation of the principle of representative republican government, to exclude from the right of suffrage, men who by their condition are dependent directly upon governmental aid for support, but simply for the reason that J would not incumber the text of the Constitution by qualifications which have no practical importance; as in my judgment the difficulty which has been referred to by the honorable chairman of the committee [Mr. Greeley], if it exists in the city of New York, has not been noticed or felt elsewhere throughout the State. But, Mr. Chairman, I am opposed to that part of the amendment which provides for the striking out of this section the term of thirty days as a limitation in respect to citizenship and as a condition in order to entitle a citizen to vote. I am in favor of that limitation for the reasons which have been suggested by the committee. Those reasons, as I understood them, have reference to the purity of elections and the free and intelligent exercise by citizens of the right of suffrage. And, sir, although this proposition is assailed by the minority of the committee in their report submitted to the Convention, it is by no means, as I understand it, a novel proposition in this State. Because, sir, the very able and intelligent committee upon the right of suffrage in the Convention of 1846, of which the late Governor Bouck was chairman, unanimously reported to that Convention a limitation of sixty days citizenship, instead of the limitation of thirty days provided by the report of this committee, and in my judgment the simple question to be determinedby this Convention, is this: Is this limitation right in itself, and will it tend to accomnplish.th objeqt for whic it was inserted by the committee? It has been the tendency in our State and elsewhere throughout the country, to enlarge the electoral body and admit to it all persons who could be safely intrusted with the suffrage, notwithstanding or irrespective of the accidents of births and fortunes. This has been the history of this State on this question; and it is in accordance with the suggestion made by the gentleman from Rensselaer [Mr. M. I. Town. send] that governments derive their justpowers from the consent of the governed, and that men, as such, have a right to take part in the operations and control of the government which exacts their obedience. It is true, that by the Constitution of 1777, property was the test of suffrage. By the Constitution of 1821, citizenship was made the test of suffrage, abrogating the property qualification except as to men of color, as to whom a new qualification was exacted and prescribed, resting upon special and peculiar reasons, which if they ever had any force, now have none by the changed condition of that class of people in the country. I, therefore, believe in widening and extending the right of suffrage just so far and to that limit, as is consistent with the safety of the State. The minority report states in very forcible language what no one can deny, that corruption in the electors, and among officials is the leprosy of the body politic. I do not understand the force of the suggestion made in that report, in assigning the reasons for the disagreement of the minority with the majority of the committee upon this question; because if it is true as stated in that report, that in the years 1856 and 1857 several thousand persons, under the exciting elections of those years, within ten days before the occurrence of those elections. made their application and took their first step in the road of citizenship, I think the inference is quite clear that it was by reason of some unhealthy and improper stimulus applied to men, which should lead them at such a juncture, in the heat of a partisan election, to make their application and declare their intention to become citizens of the United States, although full citizenship could not be reached until two years thereafter. While, therefore, Mr. Chairman, I am in favor of a part of the proposition contained in this amendment, I am opposed to striking out the limitation of thirty days reported by the committee. I should have preferred, with Governor Bouck and his democratic associates on the committee of 1846, that that term should have been extended rather to sixty days. I am in favor of this provision, because I am opposed to the disgraceful crowding of our courts, upon the very eve of a partisan election, with applicants seeking admission to citizenship, urged on and prompted by partisans who, while endeavoring to initiate them into citizenship, at the same time seek to control and direct their votes. I am in favor of it because I am in favor of any system which shall make the obtaining of citizenship rest upon the free and intelligent choice of men who desire to be citizens. I believe that the successive steps to naturalization and citizenship should be taken by men acting upon their own judgment, and seeking citizenship simply because they desire it, understanding the dignity of an American citizeni. 211 very measure, therefore, which in my judgment iall tend to dignify American citizership; rery measure which shall lead men properly, esteem and. appreciate the value of that oon which we allow to all men, and hereafter hope to all races of men; any prooositlon,hich tends to this result, I am disposed to favor.;ecause it is undeniably true that the great and ital danger to republican institutions is the daner of corruption among electors. Let us guard, sfar as we can, against this tendency, and it eems to me that this particular proposition conained in the report of the committee, is a safe, List and equitable one, and it should be adopted iy this Convention. Mr. GREELEY - I move for a division of the luestion as indicated by the gentleman who has just addressed the Chair, and that the vote be;aken separately on the propositions, as they are nearly distinct propositions. The. CHAIRMAN - The Chair would inform the gentleman fronm Westchester [Mr. Greeley]. that the amendment of the gentleman from Jefferson [Mr. Bickford] is not divisible, but after that shall have been passed upon, if it shall be determined in the negative, the proposition to divide the amendment of the gentleman from Ontario [Mr. Lapham], will be entertained by the Chair. Mr. ANDREWS - Suppos3 it is determined in the affirmative, what is the effect then? The CHAIRMAN -The Chair is of the opinion that it becomes then an original proposition, and will not be divisible. Mr. GREELEY - I desire only to say one word in addition to the remarks of the gentleman who has so eloquently addressed us, in reference to this change from thirty days to ten days. All I can say is, it cannot have been very fully considered by the gentleman opposing it; because, having stricken out the four months' residence, you will, by changing this from thirty to ten days, bring about a perpetual shuffling of voters from one side of the line to the other, in ordem' to carry a doubtful Congressional or Assembly district. You will have thousands of men moving across from this side of the street to the other, or from one boarding-house to another, in order to effect a particular purpose in a doubtful or closely contested district. It would lead to universal corruption and perversion of the elective franchise) by sending men from where they belong to where they do not belong. I know 0f many instances, even in New England, Where sen vote in the town where they actually reside, and where thousands have been hired, as it is said, to go and live in other townships where the eiection is doubtful, and after the election is over they quarrel with the men who hired them and go back to their own town. perhaps not having been absent three days. In this case they would have to live there but ten days. I am quite sure that could not have been intended, unless they g~ back to their county residence or district residence for a number of days. At present We have the thirty-day rule, and you have to 'ear that you have lived in that district for thirty ys, or you cannot vote for any officer for Whom you could not have voted in the district acre you formerly resided. I do entreat the com mittee, at any rate, to take care that this change from thirty to ten days is not made unlessyou mean to have elections made a mere matter of gambling, as will be done by parties contriving to draw as many votes as possible from districts where there can be no serious contest, and plant them in districts which are supposed to be very evenly divided. Mr. M. I. TOWNSEND-At the proper time, I shall feel it my duty to offer a proposition to meet the difficulty suggested by the author of the minority report, in reference to the effect that might be produced in 1868 by changing the length of citizenship from ten days to thirty days. I shall propose that during the year 1868, ten days' citizenship shall suffice, but after 1868 thirty days shall be the measure. I deem the change proposed by the majority of the committee to be a wholesome one, and for the reasons suggested by the gentleman from Onondaga [Mr. Andrews] who recently addressed the Chair. But I wish to say a word upon the other branch of the question, now immediately before the committee, and that is, I do not consider that it is any infringement of the rights of the citizen t exclude a public pauper from the right of participation in the election. I wish to make myself as consistent as possible upon this subject, whether there may be any real consistency or not; at least I think my views upon one branch of this subject are entirely consistent with the general views wiich I have expressed. A man who stands an independent citizen, earning his own living, owing allegiance to none but to his own government, exercising his independent functions in the community, that man is entitled to all the rights of the citizen. But a time comes when it becomes his choice, as well as his necessity, to live on the public taxes of the State, and to be supported as a burden to the community. He chooses to give away a portion of his rights for the purpose of obtaining a personal and private end, and when he chooses to thus surrender those rights, it is doing no wrong to him to say. " If you receive this personal benefit, you shall yield up for the time being your personal rights, or a portion of them". And what' is the effect of the opposite course? The gentleman from Onondaga [Mr. Andrews] says he has only heard this complaint from the city of New York. The gentleman will find, if it be not true of the city in which he resides, that it is true of other cities in this State, that when the election comes on, the public almshouses, sustained by the taxes upon the people of that locality, are thrown open, not literally setting the paupers at large, but sending out the paupers under the direction of the men in charge of the almshouses to give one hundred, two hundred or three hundred votes in the county in which the elections are going on. I confess that for myself it seems a little inconsistent to say that a man shall forfeit every right he possesses, and shall be considered a felon, and consigned to a prison if he pays one dollar to influence the vote of an elector, and yet the power shall be put in the hands of the keeper of an almshouse to positively control the votes of one hundred, two hundred, three hundred, or five hundred men at an election. Because the control is absolute in one way, not one word may be said to the pauper who is thus sent out, but the pauper / 212 understands perfectly that his living, his food, his two classes of cases. It does not mean ordi. accommodation. for all future time perhaps in that nary guardianship, that is, guardianship of institution, will be modified by the feeling of the property, but guardianship of the person. It keeper towatrdhim. These men are sent out into cannot mean anything else. These are habthe community to vote, and it is giving power to itual drankards and persons, who after an exam. one man, and giving control, that it seems to me, ination, de lunatico inquirendo, are declared in the working of a republican system of govern- to be incapable of managing their affairs, and their ment, should be possessed by no man. For these persons are put under the charge of a committee. reasons, I feel I do no wrong to the man who The committee has charge of such a person. It is voluntarily accepts of charity arising out of the so declared by the decisions of our courts. I can. public taxes, to deprive him of his vote. I feel not now refer to the decision, but some gentlemen that I am doing but right to the rest of the com- who are here present will undoubtedly remember munity, to say that the man who is thus situated, it. There is one other class, and that is paushall not, under the control of his keeper, go out pers in the almshouses. They are under guarand influence an election. dianship and are so declared to be by our Mr. ENDRESS —As regards this question of statutes. The statute says that the superin. residence, I desire to call the attention of the tendent of the poor shall "govern " them (using members of the Convention to the fact, that there that very word), and can appoint agents, is no limitation of residence as to counties, except that is, inferior agents to govern them; and from this of thirty days. It was taken by the corn the government of these subordinates, they have mittee as a good period to apply to counties and a right to appeal to the superintendent, and to election districts, in fixing the question of residence him only. They are absolutely under guardian. or citizenship. On that point, I have nothing fur- ship, and their persons are and these two classes ther to say. As wspects the question of pauper- of persons ought not to vote. Would it not be ism, I agree with the amendment proposed by the rattler a farce upon the elective franchise, for a gentleman from Ontario [Mr. Lapham], because I person, without reason, to be allowed to pass think the term, "public pauper," too indefinite and judgment upon public affairs by voting, and yet uncertain to be brought within the Constitution. I have seen it done, a great many times, in I had the honor to advocate that view before the the case of idiots -not persons of unsound committee, but *as overruled, and I shall vote mind, merely, but idiots. I have never seen a now in accordance with the views I expressed lunatic vote, but I have seen persons under guarthen. It is here made an absolute disqualifi- dianship, out of the poor-house, brought to the cation, and yet I hardly think there are polls by their keepers. The other class of cases three gentlemen in this Convention who can is persons convicted of bribery, unless pardoned agree upon what the term "public pauper" or otherwise restored to civil rights. Thdre is, I means. Now as to the other matters contained in, think, a little inaccuracy in that phraseology. the amendment of the gentleman from Ontario Bribery, I think, is both a felony and a misde[Mr. Lapham] which names " idiots, lunatics, and meanor. In some cases it is a misdemeanor. It persons under guardianship." The word idiot includes a large class of cases, and I doubt very has a definite and clear signification. There can much whether, in all cases, it should be an absobe no misunderstanding about it An idiot is not lute disqualification, and take away from the party a person of unsound mind merely. The word the right of suffrage. So far as bribery is a felony, does not refer to the degree of intellect,, but it that is included in the word felony. I believe means a person who has an absolute lack of all that what I have stated includes all I desire to intellect. A person who thus comes in the form of say at present. a man, but without reason, before the inspectors of Mr. WAKEMAN- As I understand it, Mr. election, to be registered, who shows himself to be Chairman, the class of persons referred to by the an idiot, and the inspectors cannot be mistaken in gentleman from Livingston [Mr. Eudress], as perreference to him. But if we assume that he sons who should not vote because under guardimust be judicially declared an idiot, we do not anship must be minors, as the word "guardianreach one case out of ten. There is hardly one ship" implies that. It is true that a class of case in ten in which idiots have been judicially persons defined by the law, habitual drunkpronounced to be so. They never are judicially ards, lunatics and persons of unsound mind declared idiots unless they happen to be possessed may be placed under the care of a commitof property. And so likewise in the case of tee, but not under guardianship. It seems to lunatics. I had the honor, when the subject was me that guardianship is not the proper word to under consideration in the committee, to move be used here in reference to the class of persons that the section should include "lunatics during referred to. Guardianship has a distinct, definite, the period of their lunacy," because there can be legal meaning. In that particular, I think the no mistake about a person's unsoundness wltn the phraseology slould be changed. On the question lunacy is upon him. If he is raving mad when of thirty days' citizenship, I propose, for onebefore the registers they will not register him. at least such are my present impressions-to I think there can scarcely be a mistake about a vote for a proposition like this-to give that class of persons. We are two-thirds of us to those persons who have 'already declared lawyers, and lawyers of good standing in this their intention to.become voters, in good faith, State, and I appeal to lawyers whether there can the right for two years to come to vote at an elecbe any mistake about this phraseology. And tion, if they shall have taken out their final panow, as to persons under guardianship. This was pers at least ten days before the election, but intended, sir, by the committee, to include only hereafter, to make the time thirty days, so that 213 there can be no question on the point raised in the report of the minority of the committee, and which will guarantee the right of men who have declared their intentions in good faith, to vote in 1868. But, sir, the next proposition, I tliink, requires some little examination. It provides that no person who shall, at ang time within thirty days next preceding, have teen a public pauper, shall vote at any election. Now, sir, I understand that a person who is a pauper is a public pauper. In the county of Genesee and town of Batavia, where I reside, I understand if a person applies for relief, or if any one else applies in his behalf for relief, he is a public pauper. But few of the paupers of the county of Genesee are supported in the public poor-house; therefore I say that if it is understood that every person who is a public pauper is likely to be excluded from the right of voting, we must look to it and see that we do not do them injustice. Men become paupers by reason of a want of propertyby misfortune, not of their own seeking. Should we disfranchise them because they are poor and needy? It strikes me not, sir. It strikes me that we should be careful lest we exclude many worthy citizens, as worthy as any gentleman upon this floor, to enjoy the right to vote. I know men who fought in the war of 1812, who, by being neglected by the general government, have become paupers without any fault of their own. Would it be right to exclude such men from the privilege of voting? Then again, I am opposed to a property qualification, from beginning to end -from first to last. I propose to vote in favor of giving colored men tht full rights of citizenship independent of property qualification. I am not therefore prepared to apply as a rule to a white man, that lie must possess a property qualification to entitle him to vote; for, as I said before, a man becomes a pauper by reason of a want of property. If he had property, he would not become a pubhl pauper. Shall we apply that test to one class of citizens, when we propose to remove it in respect to another? I think my venerable friend from Rensselaer [Mr.. I. Townsend], when he comes to look at the subject in that light, will say that the position cannot be defended upon principle at all. For one, I am disposed to base the right to vote upon manhood, without reference to color, and I would Submit to the gentleman from Westchester [Mr. Greeley], whether or not the principle of excluding paupers can be defended consistently with the remainder of his report. Mr. GREELEY-I would ask the gentleman Irom Genesee [Mr. Wakeman], whether this report proposes to apply any rule to white men that t does not apply to colored men. Mr. WAKEMAN-None whatever, but taking the report altogether, it does propose this. It Proposes to give every male citizen the right to Vote, excluding afterward, paupers, and paupers Tae made so for the want of a property qualificata. Under our present Constitution, the evil may be remedied in this wav. I can see there is diffculty, and perhaps one that cannot Properly be remedied by the Constitution, ad'that is the case of men who are under the e control of a public officer in the almshouse. We might insert some provision by which le should not have control of a pauper, or in other words, that a keeper of the almshouse shall not control the votes of men who are inmates of the almshouse. There would be some propriety in this. But to apply the rule to every public pauper, would exclude a large class of persons who are absolutely dependent for some little aid, but who are worthy citizens of the State. Therefore, to be consistent in voting on this question, as well as on the question in reference tdcolored voters, I must vote for the amendment of the gentleman from Ontario [Mr. Lapham], doing away with all property qualitications, for the white as well as for the colored man, and put each on his manhood — upon his absolute, inalienable right, as has been stated by the gentleman from Rensselaer [Mr. M. I. Townsend]. He has either the right to vote or he has not. It is provided here by the draft reported by the committee, that persons shall be excluded who have -committed crime, and for such we have a right to disfranchise them. A man who is convicted of a felony, or who receives a bribe or does any other act by which we have a right to say he shall be disfranchised, should be. But, sir, if by misfortune or poverty, persons are compelled to receive public alms, it does seem to me that we cannot consistently vote for their disfranchisement, and especially when we have voted to remove the property qualification in the case of colored citizens Therefore, I trust that the amendment of the gentleman from Ontario [Mr. Lapham] will be adopted. Mr. HAND-This question has been pretty fully discussed, and I do not propose to go over the whole ground of discussion, but I do feel called upon to review some of the sentiments that have been brought forward here-very absurd sentiments, which may be used in the discussion of other subjects. I was very glad that the gentleman from Rensselaer [Mr. M. I. Townsend], whom I highly respect, answered his own argument, and rendered the position that he previously took, absurd' to the view of the whole Convention. He told us that manhood suffrage was an inalienable right, and afterward he stated that poverty should exclude a large class of our citizens. Sir, there is no such thing as an inalienable right. There is no such thing as a manhood right of any kind or name whatever, but that man may be called upon to yield in society. Our right to life is limited, and so is our right to the pursuit of happiness. We meet with legal restrictions at every step. Every law in the statute book is a restraint. It forbids or enjoins something. In so far as it does, it is a restraint upon my freedom of action. If manhood suffrage were right, we should need no Constitutional clause for it, but every person would walk up to the polls, and demand the right to deposit a ballot. We have four millions of people in this State, but what number of persons have we under this proposed Constitution, who will deposit their ballots. Less than one-sixth of our population. By what right do you exclude five out of six? Is it not because you have a right to prescribe the right of suffrage, and tell what its conditions shall be? You say a man S14 shall be 21 years of age before he shall asking the Committee on the Right of Suffrage to be allowed to vote. If you have the power inquire whether habitual drunkenness, that totally why not exercise it and say he shall be forty unfitted a man for the ordinary business of life, *years of age? Who gives you the right to should not exclude persons guilty of it from the say that the age of twenty-one years is the pre- right of the elective franchise. The committee cise period of a man's life when he shall attain turned a cold shoulder to the proposition. the privilege of the elective franchise? The fact Mr. M. I. LOWNSEND- Will the gentleman shows that the right belongs to society, in its allow me to uiquire if "persons under guardian. organized capacity, coming together here in this ship" does not mean habitual drunkards, who Constitutional Convention. The whole subject is have conducted themselves so loosely that guard. open to their action, and is to be decided by their ians have had to be put over them? I suppose discretion. And now, a word as to the subject that such were intended to be included in that of pauper suffrage. I am sorry that the cor- description by the committee. mittee saw fit to introduce this into their report. Mr. HAND - There are enough drunkards in We have been told here that if men choose this State to turn every election, who have never to accept public charity, they should thereby lose been put under any guardianship whatever. We their right to citizenship. I would ask if they 'o have vast numbers of instances where families it as a matter of choice? If stern necessity and and wives hesitate to put this last disgrace upon misfortune, to which we are all liable, and from one so nearly connected with them. With these which none may be exempt, do not force men to remarks, as this discussion has been somewhat accept of public charity? I wouldl ask if men of protracted. I will leave the subject. tried worth, with high aspirations of patriotism Mr. BARNARD moved that the committee and love of country, have not received aid do now rise, report progress, and ask leave to sit from the public purse? And let me ask you, again. as an offset to the case cited by the gentle- Which was carried. man from Rensselaer [Mr. M. I. Townsend], of Whereupon the committee rose, and the Presi. thle man in Illinois who could neither write dent resumed the chair in Convention. nor read, but who performed such wonderful Mr. ALVORD. from the Committee of the things for his country, if there are not thousands Whole, reportel that the committee had had unof as good patriots as he, who have risked their der consideration the report of the Committee on lives on the battle-field, and who, to-day, by rea- the Right of Suffrage and the Qualifications to son of wrongs perpetrated upon them in Southern Hold Office, had made some progress therein, but prison-houses, and injuries received upon the bat- not having gone through therewith, had instructed tie-field when fighting in defense of their country, their chairman to report that fact to the Convenwill not necessarily become public paupers, and tion and ask leave to sit again. receive aid from the government under which The question was then put on granting leave, they live, being disabled in the service of their and it was declared carried. country. Would you exclude this large class Mr. ENDRESS -I move that the Convention of persons from the privileges of citizenship? do now adjonrn. If an evil exists in the city of New York, as Mr. GREELEY — Can we not move to take a the gentleman from Westchester [Mr. Greeley] recess until four o'clock? has stated, by which hundreds of men are under The PRESIDENT -The motion to adjourn is the control of a single man, the remedy for that is first in order. the enactment of some provision by the Legisla- The question was then put on the motion of Mr. ture by which that power shall. be taken away Endress to adjourn, and it was declared carried. from the keeper of those persons under his So the Convention stood adjourned. charge. Do not say that honest poverty shallexclude a man from the right of suffrace. Take WEDNESDAY, JULY, 10, 1867. away the power of the keeper. When a man desires The Convention met at 11 o'clock A. M. the benefitof the ballots of these paupers in the sev- Prayer was offered by Rev. WM. WYATT. eral localities, let him have access to them, and let Tie Journal of yesterday was read by the Seethem be conveyed by such persons to those several retary and approved. localitie, without the supervision of their keeper, The PRESIDENT made the following announceguarded by proper legislation against the exercise ment: of any such power, to the place where their bal- Mr. Jarvis, of New York is appointed a memlots are to be deposited, there to exercise the ber of the Committee on the Legislature, its right of freemen. Let us not, at this day, make Organization, etc.; to fill the vacancy occasioned such a test as this. If we exclude any person by the voluntary retirement of Mr. J. Brooks. from the rights of citizenship, let it be a man Mr. VAN COTT presented the petition of citiwho, by his own act, has unfitted himself for the zens of Brooklyn against the appropriation of performance of its duties. A beautiful state of public moneys to the support of sectarian, charitlings it would be, if drunken vagabonds, unfitted table and other institutions. for the performance of the duties of citizens, would Which was referred to the Committee on the stagger up to the polls, and crowd out of the Powers and Duties of the Legislature. way some patriot who had shed his blood in Mr. TUCKER presented the petition of men the nation's defense, and who, by reason of and women of New York, for the extension this, had been compelled to accept, at the hands of the right of suffrage to women. of the public, a small pittance, to enable him to Which was referred to the Committee of the eke out a subsistence. I introduced a resolution Whole. 215 Mr. E. A. BROWN presented the petition of in that Constitution, no bill should become a law William King and six otlers, electors of Martins- utless it received tle affirmative vote of a majority burgh, Lewis county, for a collstitutional pro- of all who were elected to the Assembly and all who vision prohibiting the Legislature of the State were elected to the Senate. There is another proand Boards of Supervisors of counties and vision, that is, whenever there is an amendment municipal corporations, donating or appropriating proposed to the Constitution, thatit should receive public money or property to churches, colleges, the affirmative vote of a majority of the members of hospitals, etc., of a stctarian character. both houses before it should be considered by Which was referred to the Committee on the the people; afterward, that it should be pubPowers and Duties of the Legislature. lished, and at the second session should again Mr. GRAVES presented.the petition of forty- receive the affirmative vote of the majority of all seven males and tifty-five females from the town who were elected to the Assembly and the Senate of Marcellus, Onondaga county, asking for a before it should be submitted to the people by way provision to be incorporated in the Constitution. of amendment to the Constitution. I think the which shall be separately submitted to the peo- provision is a good one, and I hope and trust it ple, prohibiting the sale of intoxicating liquors as will be adopted by this Convention. I do not think a beverage, it is showing a proper respect to the people to subWhich was referred to the Committee on Adul- mit any amendment for theirconsideration until that terated Liquors. amendment has received the affirmative vote of Mr. GRAVES also presented the petition of the majority of those the people have sent here fifty-four ladies and gentlemen of the city of New to represent them. I do not offer. this for the York, asking for equal suffrage for women. purpose of raising any opposition to any particular Which was referred to the Committee of the amendment which may be, or which has Whole. been offered, but as a general rule. It may The PRESIDENT presented a communication be that it will apply to and defeat some amendfrom the superintendent of the Onondaga salt ments whlich I may have the honor of submitsprings, in reply to a resolution of the Convention ting to the Convention during its session. for information in reference to salt springs. I do not know of any objection which Which was referred to the Committee on Salt can be urged to this proposition. If it shall Springs, and ordered to be printed. amount to a restriction upon the action of this Mr. E. BROOKS -The Committee on Charities Convention, I believe it would be all the better for and Charitable Institutions to whom was referred that reason. I think from the number of propoa memorial from one hundred and twelve citizens sitions that have been submitted here, there is an of Waverly, Tioga county, praying for some impression among many that we are going to provision in the Constitution to prevent dona- adopt a new Constitution. That is not my idea. tions of money for sectarian charities, beg leave My idea is, that tile people have sent us here to to report this memorial back to the Conven- amend the old Constitution where they have found tion, and ask that they be discharged from con- that was objectionable from the experience of sideration of the same, and that it be referred twenty years, since thle Constitution of 1846 was to the Committee on the Powers and Duties adopted. I tlink if we should submit all the of the Legislature. Let me say, that the com- proposed amendments to the popular voice, and I mittee make this request, solely in reference am perfectly confident that tile popular voice has to the manifestation made by the Convention in never declared that we should make a new Conthe motions which have been made here, that stitution. another committee should take the subject under Mr. ALVORD -I am entirely willing that the consideration, and not from any disposition to proposition of the gentleman should pass, if it be shirk the labor or responsibility incident to an amended in the right direction; but, as it is now, examination of the subject, and to making a report it seems to me to be entirely inconsistent with the upon it. rule which lie undertakes to bring up for his The question was put on the motion of Mr. E. guidance in the matter. We are here for the Brooks, and it was declared carried. purpose of forming a new Constitution; Mr. STRONG - I some days since gave notice separate and distinct propositions from that I would offer an amendment to the rules for time to time are brought forward to make, the consideration of the Convention. I would ask together, when the whole is connected, a Constituwhether it does not come up properly at this tion which we shall submit to the people; theretime; if so I would like.to have it taken up. fore it assimilates itself to tile process of the The SECRETARY proceeded to read the Legislature in passing upon different sections of amendment of Mr. Strong, as follows: a bill. There it does not require a majority of all RULE 46.-That no amendment to the Constitu* those elected to the Legislature to pass upon tion shall be adopted, except upon the affirmative those sections. When we come down to our vote of a majority of all the delegates elected to finishing work and put the enacting clause this Convention. and the jurat at the end, then it requires Mr. STRONG-I am perfectly willing that the a majority of all those elected. I have no Vote should be taken on this amendment without sort of objection whatever to the resolution any remarks made by myself, except to stdte tile reading tlht when we shall have finally got reasons why I propose it. I have adopted tie lan- through our work, and come to tile question of an guage from the provisions in the Constitution of entire Constitution which we are to sign and give 1846; tmy impression is tlat is a very strong reason forth th te people, that it shall then require a foradopting the same rule here. By the provision majority of all the members elected to the 216 Convention. But I am opposed, sir, in all other cases where an appeal shall be allowed the preliminary work of passing upon by one of its judges. these different sections, that each and every One judge of that court to sit at chambers at one of the distinct propositions submitted shall stated times, to allow such appeals on notice to require the affirmative vote of a majority of the the adverse party. Convention. Why, sir, it is a mere bid for men to GENERAL TERMS OF SUPREME COURT. stay away frm here, because a vote, if away Ninejudges to be appointed, or elected by the from here is just exactly as good as a negative e at le hol office for nine years The vote if here upon the floor, and it would State at large, and hold officthree for n ine years. The embarrass us from the beginning to the end Sta te to b e divid e d into three grannuallyd d istricts and of our proceedings. When we shall have four general terms, to be held annually in each got through passing upon all these prop- district, by any three of the judges, to be as. tions, by a majority such as shall be found in a signed in such manner as the Legislature shall quorum, then let us all come together and take direc t. the completed work and pass upon it, and if a majority be found in favor of it, then it shall be The State to remain in eight circuits, and two. considered as our work, and go to the people, judges elected or appointed for each, to hold eight not otherwise. Therefore, I am opposed to years, having general jurisdiction in law and this amendment in its present form. equity. Mr. MERRITT-I most emphatically dissent COUNTY COURTS. from the proposition as offered by the mover, To have concurrent jurisdiction in all cases not and also the proposition as intimated by the gen- exceeding $1,000, and act as referees. tleman from Onondaga [Mr. Alvord]. We are not The Surrogate's Court to be abolished and its here passing laws; our action is to be reviewed and duties performed by the County Court. passed upon by the people. Itis expected of course, The county judge to be appointed and hold six that the members of this Convention will attend years, and paid a full salary, but not allowed to its sessions; but circumstances may arise that practice law, or receive any fees. The county will absolutely prevent delegates from being pre- judge authorized to hold courts in other counties sent, when they might even favor a proposition, in such cases as the law may provide. which we might thus adopt by a majority of a In large counties an associate judge might be quorum, and yet we would be prevented from appointed. submitting that to the people of the State. It is not necessary, even at this stage, to pass this CITY COURTS. resolution. I am opposed to it and if the vote is In large cities courts may be established by a to be taken I shall ask for the ayes and noes upon two-third vote of the Legislature. it. It can accomplish nothing, in my judgment, By the above system no judge would review but mischief, and as the gentleman from Onondaga his own decision, and many cases would stop at very truthfully said, it is a bid for those who de- the general term for that reason. sire to stay away to do so, and not be put on the In most cases of $1,000, the decision of the record in regard to propositions for amendments general term will be final, but important questions or. separate articles to the Constitution, which would go up by allowance. may be presented. I do not say, that any dele- The Court of Appeals could easily dispose of gate will be thus situated, but we can hardly tell all business which would come before it. at this stage of the proceedings what will be done The great delay and expense of references before the close of the session of this Conven- would be avoided to a great extent, by trying tion. It is proper that we should leave the whole them before a judicial officer without fees, which subject in the hands of the majority of those who would take away all inducement to delay the may be present. If all the members are present the trial, as at present. rule will not be necessary, as it will require an Which was referred to the Committee on the absolute majority if the Convention is full What- Judiciary. ever reasons those may have who are absent, they Mr. LIVINGSTON offered the following resoluwill not rest upon those who are present, and it is tion: very proper that those present shall go on and Resolved, That no distinction shall ever be made complete their action on the different sections that by law between resident aliens and citizens in may be passed upon, and also upon the Constitu- reference to the right to take by gift, grant, devise, tion as a whole, descent or otherwise, and to grant, devise or Mr. SHERMAN moved that the resolution be otherwise dispose of real estate, and that all exreferred to the Committee on Rules. isting laws making any such distinction shall be Which was carried. iepealed. Mr. FRANCIS offered the following resolution: Which was referred to the Committee on Powers Resolved That the propositions in regard to and Duties of the Legislature. re-organizing the courts, herewith presented, be Mr. BECKWITH offered the following resoreferred to the Judiciary Committee. lution: Resolved That the Auditor of the Canal DepartCOURT OP APPEALS. ment be, and he is hereby requested to furnish to this Convention a copy or copies of contracts This court to consist of seven judges, holding now in force for repairs and improvements of the office for fourteen years, To, have appellate Champlain canal —and also any and all assignjursditioa in all cases exceeding $1,000 and in ments of such contracts, or any of them, by the 217 contractors, and any and all powers of attorney vention what offices, if any, have become unnecesgiven by such contractors, or any of them, to sary, and may be abolished without detriment other persons, to perform on their part, such to the public service; and, especially, whether the contracts, cr any of them. duties devolving on the State Assessors, Canal Which was laid over under the rule. Appraisers, Loan Commissioners, might not safely Mr. BECKWITH also offered the following be transferred to other appropriate officials, thus resolution: simplifying and improving the financial condition Resolved, That the Senate Committee on the of the State. Investigation of Canals, be and they are hereby Which was referred to the Committee on the requested to furnish to this Convention. the evi- Finances of the State. deuce, so far as the same has been taken by them, Mr. BICKFORD offered the following resoluand especially the evidence in respect to the tion: Champlain canal. Resolved, That hereafter, until otherwise Which was laid over under the rule. ordered, the daily session of this' Convention shall Mr. BARTO offered the following resolution: begin at ten o'clock in the forenoon. Resolved, That the Superintendent of Public Mr. E. BROOKS-I hope that resolution will Instruction be requested to prepare, as soon as not be adopted. Most of the committees of this possible, and communicate to this Convention a body are engaged an hour or two in the morning, tabular statement showing: The resolution giving rise to debate, was laid 1. The whole number of children in each over. county in the State entitled to attend common Mr. GROSS called up the resolution offered by schools each year since 1840. him on the 27th of June. 2. The number of children attending such The SECRETARY proceeded to read the rcsoschools in the several counties each year since lution, as follows: 1840, and the number not attending. WHEREAS, At t last laS n amll session of tlhe 3. The amount of taxation imposed upon the general court of Massachslls,;tt, before a joint people in the several counties of the State, for committee, tile question of license and prolhibititi, school purposes, in each year since 1840, State, has undergone a thorolugh examination,:11' tho county, town and municipal tax, each stated sep- advocates on either side have endeavored to ph'i,. arately, and the percentage each, of State, county, the most ample material on the subject before the town, and municipal tax upon the amount of tax- Legislature of their State; therefore, able property. Resolved, That the Secretary of the Convention 4. The ratio of taxation to the whole number be instructed to apply to the State Librmaian or to of children entitled to attend common schools in the Clerk of the General Court of Massachusetts each year since 1840. for several copies of the printed debates on the 5. The ratio of taxation to the number the above named subjects for the use of the Cornactually in attendance in each year since 1840. mittee on the Powers and Duties of the Legisla6 The ratio of increase or decrease in the ture, except as to matters otherwise referrcd. the attendance upon schools in each county, as taxa- Committee on Cities, their organization, governtion has been increased. ment and powers, and the special Committee on 7. The number of such schools which have Adulterated Liquors, etc. * become free, and the year in which they became Mr. GROSS - My object in offering this resolufree.. tion was to place before these committees of this 8. The ratio of increase or decrease in attend- body all the testimony possible in regard to this ance upon such schools in municipal corporations 'much perverted question of license and prohibias have been made free, to the whole number of tion and such as has never before been made acceschildren entitled to attend such schools. sible to any legislative body, or Convention charged And further, that the Superintendent be with the revision of the organic law of the State. requested to report to the Convention how soon In my opinion, any one of unprejudiced mind, on he can piobably make the above statement. reading this testimony, coming as it does from Which'was laid over under the Rule. the highest authorities on matters of State, and Mr. CHURCH offered the following resolution: church, and scierice and society, must be satisResolved, That the Comptroller and the Auditor tied that prohibitory legislation cannot be and of the Canal Department be requested to report to should not be the object sought for by any honest tlis Convention a statement of all sums advanced and judicious temperance man and promoter of or paid foi canal purposes, or on the canal debt, public morals. I send a copy of the report in from other sources than canal revenues, and all question to the desk of the Secretary, and I ask Sums advanced or paid from the canal revenues for the adoption of the resolution. for other than canal purposes, or on canal debt Mr. GREELEY -I wish to know whether it (specifying such purposes), in each year, from 1817 is testimony the resolution proposes to furnish to the present timle, and also the interest upon or debates. I don't think we need any debates. each item, from the time it was paid or advanced Mr. GROSS - Testimony. to the present time, stating the items of interest The PRESIDENT-The Chair would inform;' separately. from the items of principal. the gentleman that the resolution calls for the Which was laid over under the rule. printed debates on this question. Mr. M. H. LAWRENCE offered the following The question was then put on the rosohition resolution: and it was declared to be adopted. Resohed, That the Committee on Finance be Mr. AXTELL offered the following preamble requested to inquire into and report to this Con- and resolution; 28 218 WHraEAS, The evils of intemperance are wide. spread and increasing in this State; and WHEREAS, a vast proportion of the crime and pauperism, with the taxation resulting therefrom, are the direct result of intemperance; and WHEREAS, Intemperance is stimulated and increased by the open sale of alcoholic beverages, and diminished where the sale of these beverages is by law prohibited; and WHEREAS, The right to regulate the sale of alcoholic beverages is unquestioned in all civilized communities, involving, as it does, the right of prohibition, therefore, Resolved. That it be referred to the select Committee on Prohibition, to consider the expediency of placing in the Constitution the following provision: The Legislature may provide by law for the prohibition of the sale of' alcoholic beverages. Which was referred to the Committee on Adulterated Liquors, etc. Mr. E. BROOKS offered the following resolution: Resolved, That the Committee on Cities take into consideration the propriety of so amending the Constitution as to require municipal corporations to sell all public property not absolutely necessary for the government and accommodation of those holding office in such cities. Which was referred to the Committee on Cities, etc. Mr. FULLER offered the following resolution: Resolved, That it be referred to the Committee on the Judiciary to inquire into the propriety of inserting a provision in the Constitution, substantially as follows: Courts of special sessions in the several counties of this State shall have exclusive jurisdiction to hear, try and determine all cases of assault and battery not charged to have been committed riotously, or upon any public officer; all cases of petit larceny not charged as a second offense, and all cases of intoxication; provided, however, that the accused in such cases shall have the right to demand a trial by jury in such courts. Which was referred to the Committee on the Judiciary. Mr. STRATTON-I ask to have taken from the table a resolution asking for certain information from the comptroller of the city of New York, and I move for its adaption. The SECRETARY proceeded to read the resolution as follows: Resolved, That the comptroller of the city of New York be requested to prepare and communicate to this Convention, as early as practicable, the amount paid for the year 1866, for salaries of justices, judges, clerks, stenographers, officers, inspectors and attendants, and the amounts paid for stationery and contingent expenses of the following named courts in the city of New York, stating the number of justices, judges, clerks and other attendants of each court separately, and all other expenses of each court separately, as far as he is able to do so, and also whether said amounts are to be increased or diminished the present year, and how much, viz.: supreme court, superior court, court of common pleas, marine court. The question was then put on the resolution and it was declared adopted. Mr. GRAVES —I offer the resolution to be found on p*ge 45 of the Journal, which was sub. mitted to the Committee on the Right of Suffrage, and which has not been reported upon. On consultation with some persons who are opposed to the principles involved in the resolutionThe CHAIRMAN - The Chair does not understand the motion of the gentleman from Herkimer [Mr. Graves]. Mr. GRAVES-I will state it in a moment. Some of the persons who are opposed to the principles contained in the resolution, as well as those who are favorable to them, lave said that some time should be designated in the resolution when the Convention should be held, allowing the women to determine whether they would exercise this privilege, to afford them a proper time for discussion, so as to enable them to say advisedly whether it is proper for them to exercise the elective franchise or not. I have now incorpo. rated in the resolution the time, fixing the date for June. 1868. The SECRETARY preceeded to read the resolution, as follows: Resolved, That a committee of five be appointed by the Chair to report to this Convention, at as early a day as practical, whether, in their opinion, a provision should be incorporated in the Constitution authorizing the women in this State to exercise the elective franchise, when they shall ask that right by a majority of all the votes given by citizen females over the age of twenty-one years, at an election called for that purpose, in June, 1868, at which the women alone shall have the right to vote. Mr. C. C DWIGHT-I move the reference of this resolution to the Committee of the Whole, having in charge the question of female suffrage. The question was then put on the motion of Mr. C. C. Dwight, and it was declared carried. i Mr. S. TOWNSEND-I offer the following resolution: Resolved, That section nine of article four, of the existing Constitution, be amended by inserting the word "elected" in place of the word "present," in the seventh line thereof, relating to the veto power. The CHAIRMAN-What reference does the gentleman [Mr. S. Townsend] ask for the resolution. * Mr. S. TOWNSEND-I suppose to the Committee on the Powers and Duties of the Legislature. I beg leave to say a word or two in connection with offering the amendment. Among the very few oversights and omissions, if there is more than this, in the Constitution of 1846, which has been pronounced by my friend from Rensselaer [Mr. M. I. Townsend] almost immaculate, was this, that while they prescribed that no statute should be enacted without the vote of sixty-five members of the Assembly, and seventeen members of the Senate, yet that Convention left the veto power in such a position that in any instance a vote of forty-four in the Assembly aid fourteen in the Senate, might overcome the opposition of the Governor. Such an absurdity must only have occurred through oversight, and it is 219 about the only one which, after twenty years experience, which suggests itself to my mind. The resolution was referred to the Committee on the Powers and Duties of the Legislature. Mr. VERPLANCK offered the following resolution: Resolved, That the Auditor of the Canal Department report to this Convention the number of breaks in the Erie canal within the last ten years, the expense of repairing the same, and the length of time that each breach interfered with the navigation of the said canal. Which was laid over under the rule. Mr. DUGANNE offered the following resolution: Resolved, That the following proposition be referred to the Committee on Finance: The legal rates of interest chargeable for the use or hire of money shall not exceed ten per cent. upon the amount loaned, and the legal rates of interest collectible, as rents, for the use and hire of real estate, shall not exceed twelve per cent. upon the value of the real estate leased or rented, as returned to the assessors of taxes; and all interest for the use and hire of money or real estate exceeding the above specified rates, shall be deemed usurious and illegal, and shall not be recoverable by process of law. Which was referred to the Committee on Finance. The Convention then resolved itself into a Committee of the Whole, on the report of the Committee on the Right of Suffrage and Qualifications to Hold Office, Mr. ALVORD, of Onondaga, in the Chair. The CHAIRMAN announced that the question before the committee was on the pending amendment of the gentleman from Jefferson [Mr. Bickford], to the amendment of the gentleman from Ontario [Mr. Lapham]. The SECRETARY then proceeded to read the two amendments. Mr. BICKFORD-I htave become satisfied that the amendment I offered is substantially embraced in the amendment offered by the gentleman from Ontario [Mr. Lapham], and I will, therefore, withdraw that amendment. The CHAIRMAN-No action having been taken on the amendment of the gentleman from Jefferson [Mr. Bickford], he will be allowed to withdraw it. Mr. DUGANNE -I offer the following amendment: Tile SECRETARY proceeded to read the amendment as follows: Insert after line twenty-three"And the Legislature shall have power to regulate the elective franchise and preserve the purity of elections, by withholding the right of suffrage from persons registered by the police as notorious and professional violators of law, or as engaged in and sharing the proceeds of illegal and criminal practices and pursuits." The CHAIRMAN- The Chair will state to the committee that yesterday, in consonance with the rule which prevailed in both houses of the Legislature of this State, ruled that two separate and distinct amendments, although not germane each to the other, can be entertained to the exclu sion of all amendments to either amendment then pending before the Committee. Aware of the fact that this rule has only prevailed in this State, and has not prevailed in the Congress of the United States, or- in the Parliament of Great Britain, or in any of the other States of this Union, and aware of the inconvenience of it, with the consent of the committee, it will rule for the future that an amendment having been offered no other amendment can be presented except it be germane to the original amendment proposed, and under that idea the ruling of the chair is that the amendment of the gentleman from New York [Mr. Duganne] is not now in order. Mr. KRUM -I offer the following amendment to the amendment of the gentleman from Ontario [Mr. Lapham]. The SECRETARY proceeded to read the amendment of Mr. Krum. as follows: Strike out all after the words "civil rights," in the amendment proposed by Mr. Lapham and insert in place thereof the following: " and idiots, lunatics, and persons of unsound mind, incapable of managing their own affairs, whose persons are under the charge of a committee, shall not be entitled to vote." Mr. KRUM - I am induced to offer this amendment to the amendment proposed by the gentleman from Ontario [Mr. Lapham], for the following reasons: In the amendment proposed by that gentleman, the portion which I move to strike out, after the words " civil rights " read as follows: "Persons judicially declared to be of unsound mind, or incapable of managing their affairs, shall not be entitled to vote." The objection that I have to that amendment, is that the persons referred to in the amendment, who may be judicially declared to be of unsound mind, or incapable'of managing their own affairs, may, at some time or other, be relieved from that judicial determination, and whenever such relief is granted, such persons should be entitled to the right of suffrage. For instance, our statute provides for the appointment of a committeed for both the person and estate of idiots, lunatics and persons of unsound mind, incapable of managing their own affairs. Our statute also provides, that' whenever, upon application to the court, the court shall determine that the committee no longer should remain over such person and estate, such committee shall be discharged; and whenever such committee is discharged, then, I believe that the persons who have been under the charge of such committee, should be entitled to vote, and that the disability with regard to voting, should be removed. I also believe that these classes of persons, to wit: idiots, lunatics, and persons of unsound mind, and incapable of man. aging their own affairs, should be stated by name" in the Constitution. I have a great deal of doubt whether the clause which I move to strike out, would embrace in it idiots and lunatics, that is whether idiots and lunatics would be embraced under the designation of persons of unsound mind, or incapable of managing their own affairs. Our statute provides, as. I have before remarked, that idiots may have a committee appointed for their person and estate. 220 Lunatics may have a committee appointed for their person and estate. Unless the jury go further than that persons are merely of unsohnd mind, and find that they are also incapable of managing their own affairs, no committee car, be appointed; so that the amendment of the gentleman from Ontario [Mr. Lapham], which refers to persons judicially declared to be of unsound mind, or incapable of managing their own affairs, I am fearful will not reach the class of persons known as idiots and lunatics. For these reasons I offer the amendment. The CHAIRMAN announced the question to be on the amendment of Mr. Krum to the amendment of Mr. Lapham. Mr. LAPHAM -Mr. Chairman, the term "unsound mind" embraces. every description of mental infirmity. It is a broader term and more comprehensive than any other which could be employed, and 'includes every description of persons who may become the subject of an inquisition, with the view of inquiring into the state of their minds, to ascertain whether they are capable of attending their affairs, and is in my judgment a better term than that contained in the amendment of the gentleman from Schoharie [Mr. Krum]. The amendment excludes certain cases which are contained in my proposition and which are equally, it seems to me, while under the disability, improper persons to exercise the elective franchise. I assent to the suggestion of the gentleman to this extent: my amendment ought to have provided that this deprivation of the right to exercise the elective franchise should apply only while the persons are under the disability. I concur in the propriety of the amendment suggested, and am willing to have a modification of the original proposition to that extent, for that was my design. Mr. KRUM-I know, sir, that the term "unsound mind" is very comprehensive, but I hardly think that the gentleman will say that it is more comprehensive than the words "idiots and lunatics," added to the term " and persons of unsound mind." $Iy proposition not only includes persons of unsound mind, but also idiots and lunatics, by name. The question was then put on the amendment of Mr. Krum, and it was declared lost. Mr. KER-NA — I offer the following amendment to the amendment. The SECRETARY proceeded to read the amendment, as follows: Strike out lines eight and nine to and including the word "bribery" and in lieu thereof insert, " provided that persons convicted of felony or bribery." Mr. KERNAN -The section as amended will then read: "Provided that persons convicted of felony or bribery, unless pardoned or otherwise restored to civil rights, shall not be entitled to vote." My object is to substitute this so that if the original section and the amendment of the gentleman from Ontario [Mr. Lapham), be adopted there will be nothing in the Constitution excluding idiots, lunatics, or persons under the control of a committee, from voting. Now, sir, while probably no one will argue that it s ft or proper, that idot or lunatic should vote, yet there is a good deal of difficulty, practically, where the question as to the capacity of the party to be established by judicial record or otherwise, being decided by a board of inspectors -of election, I do not think that in the previous history of the State, there has been any difficulty felt by the people in reference to this class of persons voting. None of our Constitutions, I believe, have prohibited them from voting, nor have I ever learned that there was ever any complaint that this class of persons have voted. I suppose no one would be in avor of allowing the inspectors of election to decide who is an idiot, or who is a lunatic. There is a great difference of opinion on that subject, you will find, among men. If, as I understand the amendment, they are to be excluded when they have been judicially decreed to be idiots or lunatics, that would happen to very few of the idiots or lunatics in the State. It is quite. rare that the case of a person who is an idiot or lunatic, confessedly so, is brought before a court, and the fact judicially established. The proposed amendment, therefore, will reach but few of the class of persons generally conceded to be of those named, and there would be difficulty and trouble, and questions arising as to the competency of the proof, when it is attempted to establish that the party has been thus adjudicated. And, therefore, I have thought that we would be wise in allowing the Constitution to be in refrence to this class of persons, precisely what it has been hitherto. I think no man confessedly an idiot or lunatic will be likely to come himself to vote, and the man or partisan who should endeavor to have him vote, I think we may leave him to be shamed down by men of all parties, at that election As I understand the amendment of the gentleman from Ontario [Mr. Lapham], it excludes persons over whom the court have appointed a committee, on account of their intemperate habits. I am opposed to that. If all men, intemperate or temperate, over whom any committee has been appointed, are allowed to vote, I don't think it wise in the few cases where the courts have taken charge of a man's person and estate, by a committee, and where the law and the order of the court are stringent that he should be kept sober, to say that that man should be excluded from voting, although sober, when all others, whether intoxicated or not, are allowed to vote. It is rare that a committee is appointed over an intemperate person, except when he has an estate to squander, and then there is generally care taken of his estate, and there are provisions of the law, that he shall be prevented from indulging in the habit detrimental to him. For these reasons, it seems to me, that the original provision in the proposed clause, is unnecessary and unwise, and that instead of adopting the amendment of the gentleman from Ontario [Mr. Lapham], it would seem wiser for us simply to strike out all that part of the report, and confine its exclusion to persons convicted of felony or of bribery. The CHAIRMAN- Does the gentleman from Oneida [Mr. Kernan] also include in his amendment the clause referring to the duration of time? 221 Mr. KERNAN -No, I'did not. It was simply a motion to amend in the respect named. Mr. GREELEY —The gentleman [Mr. Kernan] has stated that no practical evil has been experienced at the polls. Where I voted last fall, a person who was a resident of the county, only by virtue of being placed by the court in charge of a committee or guardian, appeared at the polls and offered his vote. His vote was challenged, but he swore it in under the direction and guidance of the people who had charge of him, by order of the court, and we could not help it. Mr. KERNAN -For what reason had he been placed under the charge of a committee? Mr. GREELEY -For incompetency of mind. Mr. KERNAN - What was the specific cause? Mr. GREELEY-I'do not know what was the cause. I stated simply the fact, that at our poll in the town of New Castle, in Westchester county, last fall, appeared a person wJho was utterly unknown to us, and whom we found to be a New York man, who had been brought from New York to our town under the charge of a committee or guardian, who had brought him into the county of Westchester and boarded him with his father; and that father and his son brought this person up to the polls, and he swore in his vote in spite of us and all we could do. He was only in the county by virtue of having been placed in charge of a committee. Now the gentleman says there is nq need of this clause-that these officers-the inspectors of election-are not the proper persons to determine who are or who are not lunatics. How then is the case to be determined? Here comes up an undoubted idiot. We know him to be such. How is he to be excluded? Or suppose him to be insane, and known to be such. How is he to be excluded? Ie comes up and, if he is not excluded, he votes. Those who have control of the idiot or lunatic, may put him on the register, and make him vote in spite of you. What is wanted is a rational decision by the people of this State. I do not believe that the right of suffrage belongs to persons of any class, whose vote will not contribute to the intelligence and capacity which go to make up the popular verdict. It is no benefit to these poor creatures, to make them voters. It is a cause of discord and contention at the polls, for in times of high party excitement, persons who we know ought not to vote, will be brought up, and if they have not the proper mental capacity to vote, they will be crowded through. Men will say, as they have done. "They, on the other side, will get all the votes thei can, and we must do the same, " I trust. therefore, that this Convention, if they mean that idiots shall not vote, will say so. It certainly is very dangerous to leave to inspectors of election, the power to exclude idiots from voting, when the Constitutibn does not provide that they shall be excluded. If you mean that idiots and insane persons shall not vote, let the Constitution of the State. say 8o. I wish to say a word in regard to striking out the word " pauper." The article as presented, requires simply that a man who is to vote shall not be the recipient of public alms during the thirty days preceding election. Those thirty days OCcur in the bright month of October, when the earth is teeming with plenty, and at a time when, if a man has ever earned anything, he has earned it during the preceding summer: and we say that if he wants to Vote he mut keep clear of the reception of public alms during those thirty days.. I do think that this is an exceedingly mild proposition. It is, in effect, a proposition to deprive some fifty or sixty managers of poor-houses, and dispensers of public alms, of the privilege of casting eight or ten thousand votes in this State. That is just what it amounts to. If these recipients of public charity receive aid from public officers, will they not be under the control of those officers, men who give them perhaps two dollars, or three dollars, or whatever amount they think best. Do you suppose they will vote against the wishes of a man who holds the purse strings, who decides how they shall live, whether they shall live well or ill? I do hope that so much of the report of the committee as recommends that a man shall not be allowed to vote who has received alms within thirty days, will be left to stand. Mr. DALY-If the fact be so, as the gentleman from Westchester [Mr. Greeleyl states, that he knew of ap individual case in which a person was improperly allowed to vote, that is no reason ia itself why we should make an important change in the fundamental law; and even if it were a fact that it has been the custom in the city of New York for all the inmates in the public almshouse to vote at the suggestion and according to the will of those who are intrusted with the management of that establishment, that particular instance of local abuse would be no reason in itself for a change in the fundamental law, by which all persons who are in the unfortunate situation of being supported at the public expense, shall be deprived of the privilege of the elective franchise. The gentleman from Westchester [Mr. Greeley], has stated as a reason for this change, and as evidence of the fact which he states, that at a certain Congressional election in the city of New York, all the inmates of the public almshouse were taken to the polls by the. superintendent or managers of that institution, and that 'they voted for a particular candidate. That event occurred twenty-four years ago. Mr. GREELEY- It was in 1846. Mr. DALY-I make the assertion, after due consideration, that the event occurred in 1842. I am a native and resident of the city of New York, and take cognizance of facts that occur there, as all persons with the same means of intelligence; and I add to it the statement that from that time to the present, I have never heard nor read, nor has the gentleman from Westchester [Mr. Greeley] stated a single instance in which that abuse has been followed or has occurred again. I think it most unlikely it should occur, from a fact which I will state. The management of the public charities of the city of New York is intrusted to a body consisting of four gentlemen who are equally divided, and have been from the organization of the board, between the two great political parties of the State. And the gentleman from Westchester [Mr. Greeley] will not dispute that the gentlemen who have filled this important trust have uniformly been men of * d 222 high character and unsullied reputation. I therefore suppose it to be very improbable, with the entire control which they have over that institution in the city of New York, that they would ever permit an abuse of that character. I will say In addition, having had some experience in the inspection of such institutions, both in this country and in Europe, that in my judgment, there is no institution of a similar nature, managed with more ability, with greater humanity or with more economy, in respect to its particular administration than that institution. And I will add the further suggestion, that having had many occasions to visit it for purposes connected with benevolence, I can bear my testimony to the fact that the unfortunate persons who are the recipients of the public bounty may, in point of intelligence, be classed generally with their fellow citizens. They are generally persons who are advanced in age, and many of whom are suffering from incurable physical infirmities; but so far as my experience extends, the general grade of their intelligence and their ability to exercise this important political privilege, is quite equal to that of a large portion of their fellow citizens. I have only one additional remark to make, and that is in support of the amendment proposed by the gentleman from Ontario [Mr. Lapham]. I speak of it entirely with reference to its effect in the city of New York. How it may affect other portions of the State, I am unable to judge. It is in that poetical period of the year which the gentleman from Westchester [Mr. Greeley] refers to, (and during which he requires that the public paupers should discharge themselves from the public institutions, and support themselves at their own expense, as a prerequisite to the exercise of the privilege of voting), in the latter part of the month of October, that nearly all persons who exercise the elective franchise as the result of naturalization, take out their final papers; and it is at that same period that the great bulk of those who design becoming citizens declare their intentions. The factthat an election is approaching attracts the attention of all persons who desire to avail themselves of that privilege. And the singular fact occurs, of which I have knowledge, from an intimate acquaintance with the operations of the courts, that the number of persons who declare their intentions, and who take out their final papers, at that same period of the year which the gentleman alludes to, are about equal. I have, perhaps, discharged the official duty of naturalizing citizens, during a long continuance on the bench, to as great an extent as any other person, and therefore when I make this statement, I do it upon knowledge. The practical effect of the clause proposed by the gentleman from Westchester [Mr. Greeley] to be incorporated into the Constitution (and which would be obviated, in my judgment, by the amendment offered by the gentleman from Ontario) [Mr. Lapham], would be to cut off all persons who have declared their intention in a particular year, at any time within thirty days previous to an election, from the privilege of voting in that year in which they would otherwise be entitled to vote by their naturalization. The courts in the city of New York inter pret the Constitution in'a liberal spirit. They refuse to naturalize within ten days previous to aa election, although there is no positive prohibi. tion in the Constitution. But inasmuch as it prohibits a person from voting who has not been a citizen ten days, the court of which I am a member, and so far as I know, the other courts, have never naturalized within that period, And as naturalization is suspended ten days before the date of an election, the greater portion of the naturalization takes place during the twenty days preceding, that suspension. The practical effect, therefore, of the adoption of the clause, reported by the committee, would be to preclude from voting, those persons whose five years expire within thirty days preceding the election. For that reason, and because of the injustice of depriving so large a class of the exercise of this privilege, who are, according to the. laws of the United States and the laws of the State, otherwise qualified to exercise the privilege of a citizen in voting, I object to the extension of the period beyond the ten days. At the same time, Mr. Chairman, I bear evidence to the wisdom of the provision of the Constitution of 1846, which requires some such period. as ten days to elapse prior to an election, during which parties coming into the court for the purpose of being naturalized shall not be entitled to vote. It was a most unseemly spectacle in our elections formerly, in the city of New York, when persons who were qualified as voters only on the day of the election, or immediately preceding it, intermingled with the elections. It led to very great abuses, and therefore the courts of New York, carrying out the spirit of the Constitution, have refused even to naturalize, as I have suggested, within ten days preceding the time of an election. Mr. GERRY —I would like to ask the gentleman from Westchester [Mr. Greeley], whether the practical effect of the adoption of the clause reported by the committee would not be to disfranchise unfortunate men who have received wounds in the service of their country, and have thus become disabled, and been compelled by reason of accidental poverty to resort for a temporary period to the almshouse? Mr. BARNARD - We have here three subjects for our consideration. One is, as has been suggested by the gentleman from New York, [Mr. Daly] whether we shall cut off in the city of New York, from the privilege of voting, some ten or fifteen thousand individuals, who have within the last few years declared their intentions, within a month before the election, to become citizens, and I may say, in reference to the county of Kings, whether you will cut off from the voters of that county about five thousand who have been similarly situated. Now, sir, you will bear in mind, or if not those who live in those counties well know, that immediately preceding the election, within the last twenty days in which persons can be naturalized, the courts are more accommodating than at other times; they give up their other civil business; instead of sitting from 10 o'clock until 3 o'clock, and instead of the county clerk's office being open from 9 o'clock until 4 o'clock, for about a month before the time that naturalization closes, the courts will be in session from 9 o'clock in the morning 223 till 10 o'clock at night, and the county clerk's Mr. FOLGER-I would ask the gentleman to office will be open for as lona a time. Hence. continue his reading. He has left out the importit is, that those persons who are compelled ant part. to earn their living by their daily toil, and cannot Mr. BARNARD -I am coming to that part be spared for one day to go up to the county directly. I did not forget it. It is because of clerk's office, as they must go between the hours that class that are referred to afterward that I of nine and four, are unable, without losing a day, intend to pursue the course I am pursuing to-day. to go up to the clerk's office to declare their inten- These persons that go into the country, and have tions before nine o'clock at night, during the period country residences, I have never known to be so I have mentioned. Now, that class bf persons are conscientious as has been suggested. As they have to be cut off by this amendment, and it has been an intention to return to the city at the end of suggested by the chairman of the committee their summer vacation, they always claim the that unless you allow this article to remain. rightto vote. I have found very few that had these persons may go from one county to another conscientious scruples that are referred to in this within tenr days and have the right to vote. report. Now, it is said here afterward that Who has asked of this Convention to change thousands of intelligent and patriotic young methe Constitution in reference to county resi- clanics, employed as carpenters, bricklayers, paintdence? Has there been a single petition pre- era, plumbers, gas-fitters, etc., go into the country sented here for any such purpose? Why is it to work in the summer time. That is very true, then, tliat this subject of county residence is not and when they come back to vote, they vote insisted upon? Why is it unreasonable that a because, they say truly, that their absence is but man should be a resident of the county three or temporary; that they had the intention of returnfour months 'before he votes? I submit, the ing, and they do come back for the purpose of committee has given no good reason in their voting. And of all the report of the committee report for the change, and, if you will look at it is only that part of it in which they provide the spirit of their report and look at the articles that the registry law shall be universal throughwhich they have proposed, you will see that they out the State, which I can approve of. That is are making a very wide distinction among the what these bricklayers, house-carpenters and different classes of our voters. They have painters have complained of heretofore, and did reported all in favor of the rich, and seek last year; that instead of having the same privby every means to cut the poor off from ilege of registering which their fellow citizens in the privilege of voting. They spy one reason is the country had, by having the register to put their that gentlemen in the qity of New York wish to names down if they knew them to be voters, or by reside in the country during the summer months, having a friend to go forward and have their and possibly they may be so conscientious by rea- names inscribed on the register, some enemies of son of their residing there that when they return these hard-working men had inserted into your in the fall they may not go forward to vote. I laws a provision requiring them to go down, durwould say, Mr. Chairman, that in my experience ing the time that the register was open, and appear of some thirty years on the subject of voting in in person before the registers and have their our large cities, I have found very few of those names inscribed, or they would be excluded from conscientious individuals. the privilege of voting. These men ask no such Mr. GREELEY-I ask the Chair to request the benefit as this given them here. They know gentleman [Mr. Barnard], when he professes to their rights; they know that if they go into the controvert the position of. the report, to quote the country for the purpose of working they are leavreport. His statements are not in accordance ing their homes in the city; that on election day with the report itself. they can return to the city and vote. But what The CHAIRMAN-The Chair will inform the they have complained of heretofore is this: that gentleman [Mr. Greeley], that the only way he they have been compelled to go twice to the city, cal address the Chair when another gentleman is once to register, and again afterward to vote, and on the floor, is to request the gentleman who is each time at a considerable expense. We are here addressing the Chair to give way for that purpose for the purpose of submitting a Constitution to the Mr. BARNARD - If I have misunderstood people that we believe they want, and one that we the report, I will try to correct myself. I think believe they will approve of; and if we dare to it states here in this report, on page 4: send down a Constitution which we may reason"At present, a resident in any county for four ably believe, from past experience, the people will months is allowed to vote at the poll of any reject, we are guilty, I believe, of a great act of district wherein he actually xesides on the day of folly, and are wasting our time here. Owing to the election, though he may be a total stranger in peculiar division of our people in this State, it canthat district. We ask you to abolish the present not be expected that any mere party Constitution requirement of four maonths' residence in a county can prevail. You will always find people enough as a pre-requisite to voting. This exaction bears of both parties; people who are satisfied with hardly on such residents of cities as spend their things as they are; who live by the present summer mainly in the country, and cannot afford system, and who profit by it; who will vote to maintain a double residence." no" to any change which-this Convention may Then at the close of the report, in some other propose. 'We are, therefore, bound here to part, it speaks of those who are kept away under endeavor to send such a Constitution to the Such circumstance that they cannot vote on people as they will, by a majority, approve of. account of their conscientious scruples. Now, We must take care, therefore, to lay aside all this rir, these rich persons because they are the rich- war which'has heretofore prevailed in this State 224 for the few years past against the people of our cities, Seeking to deprive them in one way or another of the right of suffrage. And this deprivation you are about to continue by this proposed thirty day clause, or, if you please, the four months' residence provision. I see no difficulty in the way. I am satisfied that but few persons who go into the country, to reside for the /summer, have not the right to vote when they return; and the laborers that are mentioned in this report will also have the right to vote. And then as to the other class referred to, the Methodist ministers. It is not a matter of doctrine when the Methodist ministers shall be changed in their location, and if they find it burdensome to change within four months, they may ask of the presiding elders of their conference that it shall meet earlier and make the changes so that they can exercise the right of suffrage in common with their fellow citizens. That is an easier thing to do than the other alternative proposed here, which -is to open the door so that within the space of one short month, a system which we all deprecate, a system of colonization which can take place from one county to another as well as from one ward to another. I, therefore, hope that before we adopt this first section, we will consider this matter, and ascertain whether we will, with the knowledge that by the adoption of this section as reported, be likely to disfranchise, at the Presidential election, some fifteen or twenty thousand citizens, who will then be citizens, and who, relying on the Constitution continuing as it is, and relying upon the practice in our cities, have, within a month prior to the election of 1866, declared their intentions, and expect within a month prior to the election of 1868, to take the oath and become citizens of the United States. And if we find so great a body of men likely to be disfranchised by this article, may it not have a tendency to induce many hundreds and thousands of those who might otherwise vote for the Constitution, that we shall submit to the people, but for this great disfranchising clause, which might seem to have been inserted for a mere party purpose, to vote against it. The gentleman from Onondaga [Mr. Andrews], in his remarks yesterday, seemed to think that it would be better that.a person should be a long time naturalized - as long a time as thirty days before the election- on account of his keeping clear from the corruptions of politics, if I understood his remarks rightly, or something to that effect. I will say to the gentleman I do not understand that remark. I.do not understand that politics are necessarily corrupt. I do not believe that politicians are necessarily corrupt. I hold it to be the true function of politics to make all our citizens acquainted with public affairs, that they may understand their rights and their duties as citizens and exercise them. One of the greatest evils that has been complained of by the press, and by parties generally, has been indifference on the part of the people to the exercise of thle highest right of a Citizn- the right to the elective franchise. Now, it is true as we approach an election there is more interest felt in the election. I do not understand that interest is excitement. During the lstw l letio in o: n of our large cities -in the city of Brooklyn, where I reside - Isuppose there was as much public interest felt in the election as has ever been felt in that city; the number of voters on the day of the election seemed to prove that. I suppose for more than one month before that time I attended a political meeting every night excepting Sundays, and the only political meetings that were held on Sundays were held by a party that I did not affiliate with. [Laughter.] Now, when we had our meetings, we had large numbers of persons who came to attend those meetings. We had able men from all parts of our State and all parts of the 'country, addressing our citizens in reference to political affairs. I saw no corruption, no excitement even, that was any way unhealthy. True, it is, that the sons of toil came up in their working dress. "unwashed " as they are sometimes called in the pamphlets that have been placed upon our tables; but they came up with clear heads, with sound minds, with well behaved deportment, and they heard all that was said. They deliberated; they went to their respective homes; they came up on the day of election and cast their votes, and in that county cast a vote that astonished a great many. Yet there was no corruption, no excitement there, and of that number were these thousands I have mentioned, who, for the first time within a month prior to that election, were made American citizens by naturalization. It' is not, therefore, necessary that we should stigmatize all political excitement as corrupt; when the people are aroused to their duty, when they feel an interest in public affairs, when they come forward on the day of election in large numbers, and in their might, we may look for a healthy state of affairs and a fair expression of the opinions of the people. Therefore I hope the amendment which is before us, of the gentleman from Ontario [Mr. Lapham] to fix this time at ten days, will remain as it is, and that the present Constitution may remain as it is. Mr. HUTCHINS-Will the gentleman [Mr. Barnard], allow me to ask him a question. I understand the gentleman to say he is in favor of the ten day clause, the same as it is in the Constitution of 1846. I would ask the gentleman why he is in favor of having even a ten day clause in the Constitution. Mr. BARNARD -Why, because, Mr. Chairman, it is in the present Constitution I [laughter] and for the present, I want to see no change, unless it is called for by the public sentiment, and unless we have seen some public wrong and some public evil to spring out of it. That is the reason why I want it to remain for ten days. I am a little conservative in my notions, I -want to go into no change unless I am satisfied it will be for the better, or unless it will remove some existing evil. Mr. HUTCHINS-Will the gentleman allow me to ask him a further question. I will ask, when this clause was put in the Constitution of 1846, why the members of that Convention did not see fit to prefer the Constitution of 1821, which had no such clause? ~Mr. BARNARD-It is enough for me to say, it was put into the Constitution of 1846, it wa~ submitted to the people and received a majority of the votes of the people That is enough for me. Now, then, let us come to the second branc 225 of the subject we have before us. The committee have reported a provision to exclude idiots, lunatics, etc., from the right of voting. The gentleman from Ontario [Mr. Lapham] proposes we should insert a clause, confining it to those who are judicially determined to be such, and the chairman of the committee has objected to the insertion of such a clause. What will be the effect on the Constitution, supposing it to be adopted, with the provision as reported by the committee? You would have the inspectors of election exercising judicial powers, and I want to see as little of that as possible. While they are investigating whether a man is an idiot, or a person of unsound mind, they may be excluding two hundred legal voters from the privilege of the elective franchise. Mr. GREELEY-I desire to ask the gentleman, if he will allow me, if that is not precisely the case to-day. Suppose an idiot or a notorious lunatic does come up to the polls and offer his vote, I ask whether they do not judge of his qualifications and decide either to exclude or admit his vote? Mr. BARNARD -That is more than I can tell. If they do. then we do not want to insert the provision in the Constitution; it is sufficient for the purpose if it is done. What I object to, is investing these inspectors of election with any judicial power whatever. If I were to say what was necessary by the law, it would be simply this. " Your duty shall be, to take the vote of every duly registered citizen, deposit it in the ballot box and canvass it afterward; and should an oath be required, put the oath, and so pass on." Why sir, in the election district in which I now reside, at the election in 1866, so great was the crowd of persons seeking to vote, that every person who came into the line after 10 o'clock in the morning, lost his chance to vote. And nothing was done on that occasion but to examine the register and ascertain if the names were on there and to put the oath in case of a challenge, yet more than five hundred persons in that district were excluded from the right of suffrage. But allow the board of inspectors on election day, to investigate whether a man is of unsound mind or not-and what a field of investigation there would be I This very thing was referred to here, in the discussion of yesterday. Those of us who are familiar with our law reports know what has been the action of our courts in this respect. I need only refer to two cases, that have become a part of our judicial history. The Alice Lispenard case, and the Parrish will case, as it was called, which occupied the attention of our courts from day to day, and month to month, in ascertaining what constituted a person of unsound mind. Seven large volumes of testimony were taken in the Parrish will case, to ascertain whether a man was of sound mind when he made that part of his will which was contested. He made a will when he was in good health, and afterward when he was prostrated with disease, he made a codicil and the Court finally determined that in regard to all he did after such prostration, that he was not of sound mind enough to make a will. The question of who is an idiot or a person of unsound mind is a question of great difficulty. I 29 have seen within the last month or two, in some of our leading public journals, that a gentleman who put his name to a certain bail-bond, was an idiot and a madman. [Laughter]. Let us suppose that gentlemen were to walk up to the polls in his election district in Westchester county, to cast his vote, and a voter were to step up and say, "I object to tle casting of that vote; I object to it because that man is an idiot and a madman." [Laughter.] Who is to judge of that? Suppose the inspectors of election were the editors of those newspapers I have referred to (one of them an anti-slavery paper), and they should say, "Sir, you cannot vote; you are an idiot and a madman." [Renewed laughter.] The appearance of the man, his highly intellectual countenance, his well known benevolent disposition, his mode of speaking, the musical tones we know the man can utter when he chooses, will all be of no effect with these inspectors. [Laughter.] They will say: "Mr. A., or Mr. G., prove that you did not sign that bail-bond because if you signed that bail-bond, in our opinion, you are an idiot and a lunatic who ought not to be permitted to vote." [Great laughter, which was promptly suppressed by the Chair.] Now let us come to another class. If I understand the meaning of the word idiot, it is one who is otherwise called a blockhead, and a blockhead, we all know, is a man whose head is made of a block, with no brains in it, and no room to put brains. Then we will suppose a person who issues more proclamations in one month than the President of the United States and the Governor of the State of New York put together, in the city of New York-the head of the city police, were to walk up to one of the polls to vote, and a voter steps forth and says, " I object to that man voting I" "Why?" "Because he is a blockhead I" [Laughter.] And I have seen in one of the leading journals of the city of New York, over the signature of a very distinguished man, and a good judge of human nature, that every man who signed a call for a meeting of a particular club to expel a certain individual for signing a bail-bond, was a blockhead l [Renewed laughter.] Why, sir, the chief of police of the city of New York would be excluded upon any such rule as that! We must not give any opportunity for inspectors of elections to waste the time of the people while they are investigating the question, whether any man is of unsound mind, whether he is a lunatic, a blockhead, or an idiot. Let that fact first be found by some judicial determination, and afterward exclude the person from the privilege of voting, if you will. Then we come to the third proposition before us here, which is in reference to paupers. I have seen (and probably it has been put into the hands of all of us this morning), in the columns of a newspaper in the city of New York, a proposed amendment to the section now under consideration, which is a little more definite as to the parties to be excluded. It definitely excludes the inmates of prisons and almshouses from the right of suffrage. Why did not the committee propose that, and go no further in their attacks upon the poor man? Mr. GREELEY - If the gentleman will allow me, I will answer his question now. It was 226 simply because we find that the keepers of prisons another Convention shall meet to revise the Con. and almshouses are in the habit of turning those stitution and make it obligatory upon them to people out a day or two before the election, so close their session more than thirty days before they may get their votes, and then taking them the election in order that they should receive back again after they have voted. no portion of the public money. We have Mr. BARNARD-Well, if that is so, it is a men among us who are almost public paupers, very easy matter for the Legislature to make who hold public office. They render no equivalent a law to prevent any abuse of that kind. But the for all they receive, and yet they are receiving provision here goes further. It says: "No public money raised by taxation. The only misperson who at any time within thirty days fortune of that class of men is, they are not poor, next preceding, have been a public pauper, shall and therefore they do not come within the class vote at any election." We have had the defiui- of public paupers described here. They do not tion of what is a public pauper made by our receive money from the superintendents of the courts, and as early as 13 Johnson's Reports, a poor or the overseers of the poor. Under that man who had been sick and had one load of wood same rule, as laid down by the gentleman from donated to him by the superintendent of the Rensselaer [Mr. M. I. Townsend], every man poor, was held to be a public pauper and his who sends his children to our public schools, that children taken away from him and bound out are supported by public taxation, will be called a against his will and consent. And every man, public pauper and would be excluded from the although he may never have received but one right to vote. I trust when we come to look at dollar's worth of wood from the superintendent this question in this light, we shall see there is of the poor, yet if he receives that one great danger in sending a Constitution to the within thirty days of an election, he is to be people containing any material change in regard to excluded from the right to vote, no matter how the right of suffrage, that may seem to be an inunfortunate he may have been in his sickness. vasion upon rights already exercised. No man It is my fortune to be connected with many can tell at the present time, what may be his institutions in the city of Brooklyn, for the relief Situation hereafter; lie may be reduced by misforof the distressed and sick, and every Saturday tune or by poverty so it will be absolutely night I take my place as treasurer of one of necessary for the preservation of himself and those committees, disbursing not less than $150 his family that he should receive some relief every Saturday night, and from that up to $350 from our public charities or from the overseers to those who by misfortune or sickness during the of the poor, and to undertake to cut off that past week have been thrown upon us for aid. To class by the language used here in this provision, be sure they are not public paupers, but suppose no in my opinion will endanger the success of the such institution existed, and persons similarly sit- whole Constitution we may send to the people. uated, belonged to no such institution where they I, therefore, hope that the liberal amendment could get this kind of aid? Take for instance the which has been offered by the gentleman from month of October, and we sometimes have hard Ontario [Mr. Lapham] will be adopted, and that frosts during that month, coming as it does after we will not, by this thirty day clause, cut off the summer months, when the usual summer com- those who have declared their intention, and who plaints and fevers are so prevalent, and suppose without this exclusion would have the right to during that time a man is prostrated by sickness vote in 1868; and that we will not give to and his wife finds she has not a particle of coal inspectors of election any judicial power whatto do her usual and necessary cooking with, and ever to determine who is an idiot, or a lunatic, she upon inquiring finds that the superintend- or a person of unsound mind; and that we will ents of the poor, would send her half a ton not say that those who by misfortune and poverty of coal if she were to ask for it, as a portion of are compelled, within thirty days of an election, their outdoor relief, then she sends up and asks to receive relief from the moneys raised for the for it, gets it, and he is cut off from the right to support of the poor shall be excluded from the vote l No matter how intelligent he may be. right to vote. no matter how long or how arduously he Mr. SPENCER -I rise for the purpose of askhas struggled in behalf of his country in her ing the gentleman from Oneida [Mr. Kernan], to conflict with her enemies; he is poor, he is modify the language of his amendment, so as without means, a small particle, half a ton or a to make it conform to the existing Constitution. quarter of a ton of coal given to his family during The provision of the existing Constitution which the month previous to election makes him a pub. is intended to be covered by the amendment of the lic pauper and he is cut off! The gentleman from gentleman from Oneida [Mr. Kernan], reads as Rensselaer [Mr. M. I. Townsend] yesterday under- follows: took to justify this provision, and undertook to "Laws may be passed excluding from the right say, that any man who will so far accept of the of suffrage all persons who have been or may be money raised from the people by taxation, ought convicted of bribery, larceny or of any infamous to consent to give up his right of voting. Why crime." ought he? Is it because he is poor? Or because The report of the committee intending to cover he receives the public money? If I should be substantially that provision, has changed its inclined to cut off from voting every man who language, so far as I can see, without intending to receives the public money raised by taxation, provide for the remedy for any existing mischief I should begin with the Governor and go down in the present Constitution. The language of this through all the classes of public officers, even provision is, "Felons and persons convicted of though it might be twenty years hence, when bribery.'" The language reported by the commit 227 tee does not provide that a person shall have been exclusion of persons who have received public convicted of felony, only that he shall be a felon, aid. leaving it to the inspectors of election to determine Mr. GREELEY-It strikes me that the abuse that fact. I can myself see nr mischief in the complained of by the gentleman who last sat down language of the existing Constitution in that [Mr. Kernan], will be committed by this Convention respect, which requires any remedy, and therefore if we fail to clothe the guardians of the public right I suggest a modification of the language of the and interest in this matter with power to do so. amendment, to conform in that respect. Let us suppose a case. An idiot is brought up by Mr. KERNAN - I accept the amendment, and one party who wants to carry an election - an will make it substantially to conform by inserting utterly senseless idiot. How is his vote to be after the word "felony" the word " larceny," kept out? If we say an idiot cannot vote, then and after the word "bribery" the words " or any he will be kept out; but without it there is no infamous crime." I believe that meets the sug- power to prevent that vote being polled in violagestion. tion of all right and justice. Mr. SPENCER- Omitting the word "felon?" Mr. C. C. DWIGHT-Will the gentleman from Mr. KERNAN - I have not used the word Westchester [Mr. Greeley] give way to allow me "felon." As I propose it, it will read " convicted of to answer his suggestion? felony." Insert after that "larceny," and after the Mr. GREELEY-Certainly. word" bribery " insert "or of any infamous crime." Mr. C. C. DWIGHT —I think it is within the I think the language of the present Constitution observation of every member of this Convention, preferable. I wish to state that I did not desire, in who has been in the habit of attending the polls, the amendment offered, to interfere with the amend- that the vote of such a person as the gentlemen ment of the gentleman from Ontario [Mr. Lap- has alluded to would be kept out by the simple ham], further than to amend the text in the eighth interposition of the challenge, which would require and ninth lines, as stated in the amendment. The the "utterly senseless idiot," whom the gentleother portion of his amendment I concur in fully. man alludes to, to answer certain questions which If I may be allowed to make a single suggestion in it would be impossible for him to answer, and that favor of amending the text, it is not my desire his vote would thereby be effectually excluded. that idiots or lunatics should vote. but it was for Mr. GREELEY-The gentlemen proposes by the reason that the proposition of the committee an indirect way to accomplish a result-to disis impracticable in my view. As has been well franchise a qualified elector - that is, one whom stated by others, the board of inspectors is not the Convention proposes to allow to vote, and yet the tribunal to decide who are idiots or who are lu- by indirection deprive him of his right of suffrage. natics; and inasmuch as I have never heard of any I think it is better to be honest and straightforabuse to call for redress by such an amendment, ward and say he has no right to vote. Another I trust we shall adhere, in this respect, to the gentleman. from New York [Mr, Gerry] asked Constitution as it has hitherto existed, and not What will you do with the poor soldier who has attempt to have the inspectors of election passing fought for his country, and who is wounded and on who are idiots or lunatics. The Court of Errors disabled and needs aid?" I say that man is not in this State, in a case coming from the city of a pauper. It is our duty to see that, by a pension, New York, held that a person far more incapable he is in some measure compensated for his privathan those alluded to by the gentleman [Mr. tion and suffering for his country. If we don't Greeley], and who, I think, could never be taught provide for him in that way, we are grossly to read or say the Lord's prayer, and who con- wrong. I would give him a pension sufficient to stantly required an attendant, in a very learned enable him not to come with his hat in his hand opinion by a-distinguished Senator from the city of begging for charity from the overseers of the poor. New York, held that that person was competent Let us now look a moment at the objection raised to make a will. If a party had the capacity to by the gentleman from Kings [Mr. Barnard], who make a will I suppose he would have the capacity gravely argues that this report proposes to to vote. I only allude to this as it was a noted shut out the poor and admit the rich in this matcase-the case of Lispenard-to show how diffi- ter of the thirty days' residence. Why, you are cult the question of deciding who are idiots is quite aware, and every man is aware, that the regarded in law. That was the allegation in that citizen who is able to have two residences, nay, case, and I say that I don't think any such judicial who is able to own and to hold, or rent his house power or duty should be devolved upon the in town, and who goes into the country and inspectors of election. There might be, as the spends two or three months in summer, retaining gentleman says, and as there doubtless has been, his home in the city, does not lose his right to from his statement of the facts, now and then a vote. He can come home the day before theelecCase where there is abuse; but I think the abuse tion and swear in his vote from the house where has been very trifling, and the evil of having he resided, and which all the time has been inspectors of election decide who have sufficient his home. That is not the class. They do not intellect, and who not, would lead to very great need any relief. But there is a very much larger abuse and embarrassment: and therefore I believe class of citizens whose business, whose industry, it would be wise for us to amend the text in that whose duty, calls them in the pursuit of a liveliparticular, by leaving out the words referred to hood to leave the city and go into the country to and by substituting those proposed; and then I work in the summer and fall. They are not able would be in favor of the amendment of the gentle- to keep a home in the city, or have a residence Inan from Ontario [Mr. Lapham], in reference to there. They close their residence and go into the the thirty days' residence, and in reference to the country temporarily, taking all they have with 228 them, very likely their wives and children, when they can take them there. Now they come back thirty days before election to the city again, and these persons are not entitled to vote by the Constitution as it stands. These industrious mechanics, if they do vote, they vote by an evasion of the provision of the Constitution. The rich man has no difficulty. He comes back to his home. That is what the poor man cannot do, because he is not able to keep two homes. That was the precise reason laid down in the report for the provision, and yet the gentleman gravely argues here that we propose to give the rich man double chances, and exclude the poor man. Now, as to the statement I made with reference to paupers voting in the city of New York. The gentleman from New York [Mr. Daly], says that that occurred near twenty-four years ago, in 1842. I do not know but it did occur then; but the instance to which I allude occurred in 1846, and that I very well know, because of the contest being made in that House of Representatives, and the member returned being unseated, I was elected to fill the vacancy in November, 1848. I say I do not contradict his statement that such an occurrence took place in 1842, but I know very well that this took place in 1846, when David S. Jackson was chosen a member of Congress over James Monroe, and, it was so decided, by votes polled out of the almshouse. He says this does not now take place. I believe that last fall every voter that could be taken out of the almshouse, that had a vote anywhere, and could be taken out, was taken out, and that such votes very largely swelled the majority for John T. Hoffman in that city. He says, that our almshouse officers there are divided in politics, and that they do not control those votes. I do not understand it to be so. I do not understand that, last fall, James Bowen and Owen Brennan were opposed to John T. Hoffman and in favor of Governor Fenton, and I do not believe they were, although they were nominally republicans-of the Weed stripe. [Laughter]. What I ask is that we have a clear and definite provision on this subject which shall prevent the controllers of almshouses having this tremendous power. I do not say how many times it has been abused; I say we are guilty of abuse if we leave the power in their hands; that our duty here is to make this so plain that they cannot be tempted to control the votes of this class as they will, whether they be outdoor poor or indoor poor, if, during the month previous to election, they are dependent upon public functionaries who dole out charity for their subsistence. The ground taken by the report is that one proper qualification for suffrage is exemption from dependence through pauperism or guardianship. We desire they should be independent voters. Now, a man who is not worth the clothes he stands in may be an independent voter so long as he lives on the means he earns, no matter how poorly; no matter how closely his wants tread upon his earnings, if he earns a dollar a day and lives on that dollar a day no one has any right to say "you must vote as I want you, or as I would have you;" but the moment he sinks into a state of pauperism, from that moment the officer who has control of his subsistence has virtually con trol of his vote, and such votes, so taken, the committee desire to shut out, and I ask this committee to concur in that determination. Mr. CHAMPLAIN - I have been a silent listener to the debate, and I have failed to discover any ground for the exclusion of paupers from the right of suffrage, or any justification for the restriction which this report places upon the naturalized citizen. The learned chairman of the committee [Mr. Greeley] seems to rest the disfranchisement of paupers upon their relation of dependence to the officers charged with their care and support. Mr. C. C. DWIGHT-I rise to a question of order. The question now before the committee upon the amendment offered by the gentleman from Oneida [Mr. Kernan], which relates simply to the three lines upon page two of the report of the committee and does not include the question of the exclusion of the pauper from the right of suffrage. The CHAIRMAN-The Chair is of opinion that the point of order is not well taken. Mr. CHAMPLAIN -I deny that there is any such relation of dependence existing in that case as should call for the application of our organic law. What is this question of dependence? We have heard of employees —of public officers of the nation, and of departments of the government, being sent home just before an exciting election to control, by their votes, such election. We know that in the manufacturing establishments of one section of our country it has been long a cause of complaint that the operatives in these establishments, between whom and their employers there is a dependent condition said to exist, were turned out in droves to vote and control elections. We know that in all the business relations of life there is to some extent this relation of dependence; and if you are to exclude men upon that ground in the one case, why not exclude them in all? It is a fact well known to the members of this Convention that many of these poor laborers are entirely dependent upon their wages for their support. When they are turned off, and their wages are withheld, they pass, by transition, from the condition of what the learned chairman of the committee has spoken of as that of an independent voter to the condition of a pauper, because they are so entirely dependent upon their earnings for their support. As to those persons who are in the custody of keepers of almshouses, I am opposed to the whole system of restrictions upon them. They are intelligent enough to know that it is not the hand of the keeper that feeds them, and that he is the mere executor of a trust. and that it is the public bounty which supports them-that they are supported by law-by authority of the State, and they know enough to know that he cannot withhold this bounty. Again, they know that he is under the vigilance of superior public officers, and this restraint of public duty is operating upon him, while it does not exist in the other cases of a mere private relation of dependence to which I have alluded. I confess I was pained upon the reading of this report, because of the spirit of irony, to use no harsher term, in which this unfortunate class of people were alluded to. I can only account for it by supposing that paupers in the city of New 229 York are made up of transient, dissolute persons, without occupation it may be, perhaps debauchees and immoral persons, who are congregated there. That is not the class of paupers that we have in the country. As a general thing, in the rural districts many of that unfortunate class of persons are the pioneers of the section of the country where they have come to want. They are the men who have struggled with the early forests, have reared families, and have maintained honorable positions; but when the hand of adversity has been laid upon them they have been reduced to the necessity of accepting public alms. In many of the counties where the distinction between the town and county poor is abolished, you will find these paupers living with some relative who is not entirely able to support them, but who with a little assistance from the public bounty, is enabled to take care of them, and make their condition comfortable. You find them with some old friend or neighbor who has known them in better days, and it is out of a feeling of kindness that they, with only partial compensation from the county, take upon themselves the burden of their support. They are men of intelligence, who are guilty of no crime. They are not malefactors. They are not of that class who can be dragged about in the manner that has been indicated here by some of the gentlemen who have addressed the committee. Sir, in looking into the statistics of the poor which have been laid upon our desks, and considering them in connection with this proposition, I was startled to find that of the number who, in the year 1866, received aid from the public bounty, there were 265,000, and in the year previous 278.000. I will not detain the committee by going through the statistics, and taking out the minors and the females; but a simple mathematiAl calculation will satisfy any one of the sweeping character of the provision that is contemplated. Is this the boasted philanthrophy and spirit of progress of this age that has assembled this Convention for the revision of the Constitution? Is this the rising tide of that philanthrophy and reform that is advocated by the learned chairman of the committee [Mr. Greeley], and with which he is imbued, that would bear on its advancing wave five or six thousand poor illiterate colored men into a higher manhood, and invest them with greater rights,and place them upon an equality? Is that Wave to submerge and destroy the political rights of 25,000 poor white citizens of the State of New York? The gentleman himself [Mr. Greeley] states the number at from eight to ten thousand. But I plead, sir, for twenty or thirty thousand ten who are guilty of no crime, who have been loyal to their country, and upon whom misfortune has fallen, and say that if we are to elevate another class to those rights let us not do it atthe expense of striking down the cherished rights of fifteen, twenty, or thirty thousand white citizens of this State. Their name is associated in this report with criminals. When you say that an idiot or a lunatic is to be deprived of the right of voting, the antidote goes with the poison, and the very cause of the exclusion stands as an exoneration of the person. But when you say that the malefactor, the felon, and the pauper, shall be excluded, then you indissolubly associate him with crime to the last day of his life. He must stand associated in your organic law with crime, from which association he has no power to disconnect himself, and for no other reason than his misfortune. Now, sir, in regard to the next question, and that is the restriction of the right of naturalized citizens to vote. I am opposed to it entirely. At the proper time I shall move an amendment to strike it out. I have listened attentively to what has been said upon this subject, and I can see no reason for that invidious and, as I contend, unjust discrimination against a large and respectable class of our fellow-citizens. The gentleman from New York [Mr. Daly], who ably and eloquently addressed the committee, spoke of the exhibitions in getting out these voters, and of the excitement that culminated on a certain day when these persons were admitted to the right of citizenship. I can see no difference in the character of this exhibition or the evil, whether this excitement shall culminate on the day before election, or ten days before the election, or thirty days before the election. You must have a concentration of effort inevitably, from the very fact that you extend the right of suffrage to this class of persons which will culminate at the same time, whether it be on election day, or ten or thirty days before. I can see no reason why it is a ground for discrimination. It will not be contended that a citizenship of ten days renders the possessor of it any more competent to exercise the right of suffrage, or that it will confer any greater capacity to vote understandingly than a citizenship of one day. He has been among his fellow citizens; he has contemplated citizenship; he has participated in the excitement of the election; and he is as well qualified to vote if he has been naturalized just prior to the election as if he had been naturalized from ten to thirty days before. The courts are not open on election day, and no interference with the election can occur from these proceedings. But, sir, I beg the attention of the Convention to the question whether the exercise of this power is not open to very grave constitutional doubts. It is a subject upon which I have thought some,and it might seem presumptuous, in view of the reports that have been alluded to, that were submitted to the Convention of 1846, to raise any such question here. But, sir, events have transpired within the last twenty years that have attracted the public attention, and fixed it upon the relation of the States to the Federal Union as to the powers of the Federal Government and as to the reserved rights of the States. The powers of States have been lifted to shatter the fair fabric of your national government to atoms. Now is the auspicious time to proceed carefully in the assertion of State rights over any class of citizens, and especially if there is a seeming repugnance, in the exercise of those rights, to the Constitution of the United States and laws of Congress passed in pursuance thereof, which are declared to be the supreme law of the land. The Constitution of the United States vests in Congress the power to establish a uniform rule of naturalization. This power the authors tell us is regarded as exclusive in the general Government and cannot be exercised in any man 230 ner by the States. Another provision of the Constitution, article 4, section 2, declares that the citizens of each State shall be entitled to all the privileges and immunities of citizens in the several States. The naturalized citizen, when he is invested with citizenship which he derives directly from the Constitution, which is the supreme law of the land, is invested with certain rights, by virtue of such citizenship, derived, as I have before stated, from a power exclusive in the general government, and over which the States have no control. Now, we are told, by commentators upon the Constitution, that this right of citizenship carries with it certain great fundamental rights, among which are the right to exercise the privilege of suffrage upon terms of perfect equality with the other citizens of the several States; and I invite the attention of the Convention, knowing that I am surrounded by eminent lawyers and jurists, while I review authorities upon that question, with which, I doubt not, they are all familiar, but simply for the reason that the principle is better expressed than in any language that I can use. I read from 3 Story's Commentaries, 674: "The provision in the Constitution (art. 4, sec. 2), avoids all this ambiguity. It is plain and simple in its.language, and its object is not easily to be mistaken. Connected with the exclusive power of naturalization in the national government, it put at rest many of the difficulties which affected the construction of the article of the confederation. It is obvious that, if the citizens of each State were to be deemed aliens to each other, they could not take or hold real estate or other privileges, except as other aliens. The intention of this clause was to confer on them, if one may so say, a general citizenship, and to communicate all the privileges and immunities which the citizens of the same State would be entitled to under the like circumstances." Chief Justice Kent, in his Commentaries, uses the same language, though he elaborates to some extent in defining what the fundamental rights of citizenship imports. "The privileges and immunities conceded by the Constitution of the United States to citizens in the several States were to be confined to those which were, in their nature, fundamental, and belonged of right to the citizens of all free governments. Such are the rights of protection of life and liberty, and to acquire and enjoy property, and to pay no higher impositions than other citizens, and to pass through or reside in the State at pleasure, and to enjoy the elective franchise according to the regulations of the law of the State." (2 Kent Com., 36.) The Federalist, which is acknowledged authority, I believe, upon the subject of the Constitution in speaking of the judiciary of the United States as established by the Constitution uses this language: "It may be esteemed the basis of the Union that 'the citizens of each State shall be entitled to all the privileges and immunities of citizens of the several States.' And if it be a just principle that every government ought to possess the means of eaecuting ts own provisions by its own authority, it will follow, that in order to the inviolable main tenance of that equality of privileges and immu. nities to which the citizens of the Union will be entitled, the national judiciary ought to preside in all cases in which one State or its citizens are opposed to another State or its citizens." (Federalist, vol. 2, p. 306.) And finally, Sir, the only adjudication upon this subject, that has fallen under my observation, is a decision in the Circuit Court of the United States in the District of Pennsylvania and New Jersey, in which Judge Washington, in consider. ing this very provision, uses this language: "The inquiry is, what are the privileges and immunities of citizens in the several States? We feel no hesitation in confining these expressions to those privileges and immunities which are in their nature fundamental; which belong of right to the citizens of all free governments; and which have at all times been enjoyed by the citizens of the several States which compose this Union, from the time of their becoming free, independent and sovereign. What these fundamental principles are, it would perhaps be more tedious than difficult to enumerate. They may, however, be all comprehended under the following general heads: Protection by the government; the enjoyment of life and liberty, with the right to acquire and possess property of every kind, and to pursue and obtain happiness and safety, subject nevertheless to such restraints as the government may justly prescribe for the general good of the whole. The right of a citizen of one State to pass through or to reside in any other State, for purposes of trade, agriculture, professional pursuits or otherwise; to claim the benefit of the writ of habeas corpus; to institute and maintain actions of any kind in the courts of the State; to take, hold and dispose of property, either real or personal; airl an exemption from higher taxes or impositions than are paid by the other citizens of the State; may be mentioned as some of the particular privileges and immunities of citizens, which are clearly embraced by the general description of privileges deemed to be fundamental; to which may be added, the elective franchise, as regulated and established'by the laws or Constitution of the State in which it is to be exercised." (4, Washington's Rep., p. 380.) Mr HUTCHINS-Will the gentleman give way for one moment? In the State of Massachusetts a colored man can vote on the same terms and conditions as the white man? Now, upon the principle contended for by the honorable gentleman from Allegany [Mr. Champlain], why could not such black man, a citizen of Massachusetts, if he removes into this State, vote, although he may not be seized of property of the value provided for in the Constitution of 1846? Mr. CHAMPLAIN -The question which the gentleman suggests, I do not know that it has ever arisen, but when it shall arise, if there is any thing in the agument, I shall not deny but that the colored citizen of Massachusetts, when he comes into this State, is entitled - if he is a citizen of the United States, and entitled to the immunities and privileges of such-to the terms of perfeet equality with the citizens of the State of New York. 231 Mr. HUTCHINS-Will the gentleman give way for a moment for another suggestion? Is not a citizen of the United States a citizen - Mr. CHAMPLAIN-I cannot give way. I object to being interrupted in this way. Mr. HUTCHINS-I am not interrupting the gentleman. Mr. CHAMPLAIN — When a person by virtue of the Constitution of the United States, which is paramount to State authority, is made a citizen of the United States, it is said he is invested with these fundamental rights, the right to hold property, the right to exercise the elective franchise upon terms of equality with the other citizens of the State, and if the gentleman will understand my argument the point of it is this, that you shall not discriminate against the citizens, or any class of citizens, to deprive them of equal rights with the rest if they can trace their right of citizenship to this supreme law of the land. You may exclude the adopted citizen and white citizen alike; you may require a one year or two years' residence; you may require that persons shall be naturalized citizens for thirty days or three years, but you shall treat all alike on terms of perfect equality where they come into your State clothed with the panoply of citizenship, under the Constitution of the United States. Will the honored Chairman [Mr. Greeley] contend that your Committee on the Bill of Rights may report here, that a naturalized citizen residing in the State of New York may hold property provided he has been such for three years or thirty days? May they say that he shall be entitled to the writ of the habeas corpus, provided that he has been a citizen of the United States for thirty days or three years? May they say that the home of the native citizen shall be his castle, secure from invasion, and that his property shall not be taken without due process of law? But may they discriminate and take away the rights of the naturalized citizen, naturalized under the Constitution in that respect? I would ask the learned chairman sir, what is this right of citizenship worth, if these great and fundamental privileges, which it is asserted, it carries with it. may be stricken down one by one, by invidious discriminations against classes of citizens, until they are entirely destroyed? Now, Mr. Chairman, for the purpose of illustrating the position taken by the committee in the report, let us suppose a case. I know there are amendments to the Federal Constitution pending which are intended to elevate to citizenship that large and unfortunate class of persons existing in the Southern States, who have lately been made freemen by the abolition of slavery-withOut undertaking to say what those constitutional amendments are, or to examine them, or to speak of their policy or the propriety of pressing them in the present condition of the country, it is enough for the purpose of my illustration for me to say: Suppose the gentlemen from Westchester [Mr. Greeley] and his friends should be enabled to carry those constitutional amendments, and that it was clearly and indisputably the power of Congress to lift up that degraded race to the enjoyment of all the rights of citizenship, as intended by the constitutional provisions in question. And suppose that Congress, instead of providing courts in which they should receive their certificates, should by law, directly in accordance with the Constitution, declare that from this time henceforth they should be citizens of the United States, and invested with all the privileges and immunities as such, will the gentleman contend for one moment, that some southern State where a Convention then shall assemble, clothed with the powers of the State government that concededly have the right to exercise the powers of sovereignty, that they may strike down those rights, acting upon the prejudice of color, and may by enactment, repugnant to the Constitution of the United States, making the very disqualification that it was its purpose to remove, the ground, and say that the immunities and privileges granted by the Constitution, shall not apply to any citizen unless he shall have been a freeman for thirty years, or a citizen of the United States for thirty years or thirty days. I warn gentlemen that this power they have asserted, if recognized in the great Empire State of New York, will stand as an overshadowing precedent to control events which all can see throng the unexplored pathway of the future, and it may return in future time to trouble the inventor, and be used to strike down every thus acquired right of the colored man. Let the gentlemen consider well before they use this power here and now against the adopted citizen. What is this sacred right of citizenship imported under the power of this Constitution? Is it a right that can be hawked at and torn away by State authority? Sir, in the better days of the republic, there was a man who was a political exile from his own country where he had followed the flag of liberty until it went down in the night of despotism. He made this country his asylum. He afterward wandered abroad and at the port of Smyrna he was seized, by the tyrannical hand of Austria for his political offense. He had then done nothing but declare his intention to become a citizen of the United States. But what was the action of our government? In tones as clear as the notes of a silver trumpet which thrilled and electrified the nation, the right of his nationality was asserted. His cry, though feeble and far off, fell upon the quick ear of a great people and the arm of this mighty republic was stretched forth to succor him and at the mouth of the cannon he was surrrendered from the prison ship in which he was confined. The principle of this nationality with which the citizen is invested, is that as long as lie can dis. cern every star in its place upon the ensign, he cannot wander so far from his country and his home in any legitimate pursuit, but that he carries with him and is protected by his panoply of nationality and the ruthless hand of tyranny and oppression cannot be laid upon him with impunity. It is kindred to that other great national principle, that the deck of an American vessel is as sacred as the soil of the Union, and the colors that float at the mast-head are the credentials of our seamen I trust that in this Convention, and in this age of the world, nothing will be done to strike down this great right or impair it, in any respect. The language of this report is 232 " Whites and blacks are required to render like "obedience to our laws, and are punished in "like measure for their violation. Whites and "blacks were indiscriminately drafted and held to "service to fill our State's quotas in the war, "whereby the republic was saved from disrup"tion. We trust that we are henceforth to deal "with men according to their conduct, without "regard to their color. If so the fact should be "embodied in the Constitution." A very slight extension of the spirit of philanthropy, that prompted this paragraph in this report, would have added to it, "or their birthplace," so that it would read: " We trust that we are henceforth to deal with men according to their conduct, without regard to their color or their birthplace. If so, the fact should be embodied in the Constitution." What reason is there, sir, waiving the Constitutional one, to which I have invited the attention of the committee, for excluding this class, and including the native citizen irrespective of color? Are they not loyal, are they not patriotic? Have they not carried your eagles over a hundred battlefields? Have they not aided to preserve the nationality of this country and of this government? Have they not the right to sit down now and enjoy this restored and preserved nationality with the native citizen upon terms of perfect equality? At any rate, sir, it seems to me it is more in accordance with the spirit of the age, and the patriotic principles with which it is imbued to wait until the grass has grown green upon their thousand graves, and until their wounds, received in honorable warfare, have healed, before we proceed to inflict another stab, by increasing and enlarging an invidious discrimination against them. Mr. ENDRESS-In regard to this amendment Mr. Chairman, I wish to call the attention of the eminent gentleman from Oneida [Mr. Kernan], to the fact that the terms which he has inserted in his amendment very greatly enlarge the prohibition or exclusion of voters. He has taken the language from the second section of the Constitution of 1846, which says "that laws may be passed excluding from the right of suffrage, all persons who may be convicted of bribery, larceny or any infamous crime." Now, sir, these words are to be put into our Constitution where it amounts to an actual prohibition, an utter and entire prohibition, and I think the gentleman did not intend that, for these words are of such large comprehension that the Legislature has never acted upon them. Observe, sir, the language includes "larceny"petit larceny, for instance-and "infamous crime," a word of no signification in the law. I think if the gentleman will reflect upon his resolution, he will either withdraw it or amend it. As it is now, I think the Convention would hardly undertake to put it into the provision we are considering. The provision we are now considering, is a definition of the word elector — that he shall be a citizen of the United States, that he shall have resided a certain length of time within a district, that he shall be a man not tainted with crime, etc. But this prohibition will very largely and indefinitely extend this exclusion. Mr. Chairman, I move that this committee do now rise, report progress and ask leave to sit again. The question was then put on the motion of Mr. Endress, and it was declared carried. Whereupon the committee rose and the President resumed the chair in the Convention. Mr. ALVORD, from the Committee of the Whole, reported that the committee had had under consideration the report of the Committee on the Right of Suffrage and the Qualifications to Hold Office; that they had made some progress therein, but not having gone through therewith, had instructed their chairman to report the fact to the Convention and ask leave to sit again. The question was then put on granting leave, and it was declared carried. Mr. GREELEY-I now move that this Convention take a recess until four o'clock P. M. Mr. BARNARD-I move that this Convention do now adjourn. The PRESIDENT - The motion of the gentleman from Westchester [Mr. Greeley] is not amendable. The question was put upon the motion of Mr. Greeley. Mr. E. BROOKS —I rise to a point of order. Before the vote is announced, I insist upon my point of order, which is that a motion to adjourn takes precedence of a motion for a recess. The PRESIDENT - The point of order is well taken. The question is upon the motion to adjourn. The question was then put on the motion of Mr. Barnard, and it was declared carried. So the Convention stood adjourned. THURSDAY, JULY 11, 1867. The Convention met at 11 o'clock. Prayer was offered by Rev. WILLIAM WYATT. The Journal of yesterday was read by the SECRETARY and approved. Mr. CORBETT presented the credentials of Mr. Frank Hiscock, a delegate elected from the 22d senatorial district, at a special election held on the 25th of June, 1867, to fill the vacancy occasioned by the death of Mr. L. Harris Hiscock. Mr. FRANK HISCOCK appeared in the Convention, was administered the constitutional oath of office by the President, and took his seat. Mr. CURTIS presented the petition of Charles J. Seymour and five hundred and one others, citizens of the county of Broome, asking for equal suffrage for men and women. Which was referred to the Committee of the Whole. Mr. CURTIS also presented a memorial from J. R. Barbour, suggesting plans for the prevention of frauds on the government. Which was referred to the Select Committee on Official Corruption. Mr. GRANT presented the petition of George M. Mead, S. Manderville, and thirty-four other citizens of Masonville, Delaware county, praying that a separate provision, preventing the sale of intoxicating liquors as a beverage, be submitted ito the people for their approval. 233 Which was referred to the Committee on Adulterated Liquors. Mr. KRUM presented the petition of John H. Ryder and ninety others, men and women, of the town of Richmondville, in the county of Schoharie, praying for the submission of a " separate clause" prohibiting the sale of intoxicating liquors as a beverage. Which was referred to the Committee on Adulterated Liquors. The PRESIDENT presented the petition of E. Briggs and others, in favor of prohibiting the sale of intoxicating liquors as a beverage. Which Was referred to the Committee on Adulterated Liquors. Mr. HATCH presented the petition of Rev. J C. Lord and others, praying that a clause be inserted in the Constitution prohibiting the donations of public money to sectarian institutions. Which was referred to the Committee on the Powers and Duties of the Legislature. The PRESIDENT presented a communication from the clerk of the court of appeals, in answer to a resolution of the Convention relative to the funds in the hands of the clerk of the court of appeals. Which was referred to the Committee on the Finances of the State, and ordered to be printed. Mr. FOLGER gave the following notice: That he will at some early day, move to amend Rule 41, so as to provide that a greater number of copies of each document, printed, be furnished to each member of the Convention. Mr. SEAVER, from the committee on Printing. made the following report: ALBANY, JULY 11th, 1867. Your Committee on Printing, to whom was referred the communication from Francis Lieber, on the unanimity of jurors, respectfully beg leave to report back to the Convention the said communication and ask to be discharged from the further consideration of the same, and that it be referred to the Committee on the Judiciary. Mr. FOLGER- The Committee on the Judiciary have already been discharged from the consideration of that subject, inasmuch as it more properly belonged to Committee No. 1 on the Preamble and Bill of Rights. I move to amend the report of the committee so that the resolution may be referred to Committee No. 1. The amendment was accepted. The question was then put upon agreeing with the report of the committee as amended, and it was declared adopted. Mr. MERRITT offered the following resolution: Resolved, That the question of admitting females to the right of suffrage, be submitted to the electors of the State as a separate proposition, either n the year 1868 or 1869. Which was referred to the Committee of the Whole. 'Mr. CORBETT offered the following resolution: Resolved, That the Committee on Counties, T'owns and Villages, their organization, government, and powers, be requested to inquire into the expediency of conferring upon the boards of SUpervisors of the several counties full and exusive jurisdiction over all matters of a purely 30 local character (as to which under the present Constitution the State Legislature exercises full jurisdiction), within the respective limits of such counties; and especially embracing the following subjects, viz.: 1. The laying out and construction of roads and bridges in the incorporated villages and in towns, and the raising of the necessary funds for such purposes. 2. The raising of money, by loan or tax, for town, village, or county purposes, and the authorizing educational, charitable or religious corporations to purchase, hold, or sell real estate. 3. The confirmation of the proceedings of towns and incorporated villages, their officers, and also of the executive officers of counties. 4. The purchase of real estate for the use and benefit of the county, and the sale of the same: 5. The conferring of charters for the construction of horse railroads extending beyond city limits; and also for lines of ferries outside of city limits. 6. The incorporation of villages and the defining and settling of their boundaries. 7. Changing the names of towns, villages, individuals and corporations within the limits of said counties. 8. The widening, deepening, straightening and cleaning of the channels of streams, and declaring them public highways. 9. The drainage of swamps. 10. The correction of erroneous and illegal assessments. Which was referred to the Committee on Counties, Towns and Villages, etc. Mr. LANDON offered the following resolution: WHEREAS, Justice should be administered without delay; and WHEREAS, Four-fifths of the judgments from which appeals are taken to the court of appeals are affirmed, thus showing the folly of the appeal, and the remaining one-fifth which are reversed are usually reversed by a divided court, thus creating a doubt as to the correctness of the final judgment, and WHEREAS, The Legislature can harmonize the law in case of conflicting decisions of the general term m the several districts, therefore Resolved, That the Judiciary Committee be requested to inquire into the expediency of abolishing the court of appeals. Which was referred to the Committee on the Judiciary. Mr. FULLER offered the following resolution: Resolved, That it be referred to the Committee on Education to inquire into the propriety of inserting in the Constitution a provision for the appointment of a superintendent of public instruction to take charge of the educational interests of the State. Which was referred to the Committee on Education. Mr. JARVIS offered the following resolution: Resolved, That it be referred to the Committee on the' Powers and Duties of the Legislature, to inquire into the expediency of so amending the Constitution as to prevent the Legislature of this State passing any law imposing fines or penalties in money, as a punishment for crime or misdemeanor. 234 Which was referred to the Committee on the Powers and Duties of the Legislature. Mr. BICKFORD called up for consideration the resolution offered by Jlim yesterday. The SECRETARY proceeded to read the resolution as follows: Resolved, That hereafter, until otherwise ordered, the daily sessions of this Convention shall begin at ten o'clock in the forenoon. Mr. BICKFORD - I move to amend that resolutiorn in accordance with the suggestion of some friends yesterday, by striking out the word " hereafter" and inserting the words:' after this week." The,PRESIDENT —There having been no action taken on the resolution, it will be amended as requested by the mover. Mr. ALVORD- I move, for the present, that this resolution lie upon the table. The question was put on the motion of Mr. Alvord and it was declared carried. Mr. BECKWITH called up for consideration the resolution offered by him yesterday. The SECRETARY proceeded to read the resolution, as follows: Resolved, That the Senate Committee on the investigation of canals, be and they are hereby requested to furnish to this Convention, the evidence so far as the same has been taken by them, and especially the evidence in respect to the Champlain canal. Mr. C. L. ALLEN -Before the consideration of that resolution, I beg leave to state that I saw one of the members of that committee yesterday, and had a conversation with him upon that subject. He informed me that the committee had received the resolution passed by the Convention some few days since, and had directed the stenographer to have a copy of the testimony made as soon as possible and transmit it to the Convention, that the testimony is very voluminous, and it would take some time to have a copy made, but as soon as it was copied it would be transmitted. Mr. BECKWITH-If the Senate Committee have received a request of the Convention, I am willing that this resolution should be passed over. The resolution was ordered to lie on the table. Mr. BECKWITH called up for consideration the resolution offered by him yesterday. The SECRETARY proceeded to read the resolution, as follows: Resolved, That the Auditor of the Canal Department be and he is hereby requested to furnish to the Convention a copy or copies of contracts now in force for repairs and improvements, of the Champlain canal; and also, any and all assignments of such contracts, or any of them, by the contractors, and any and all powers of attorney given by such contractors, or any of them, to other persons to perform on their part such contracts, or any of them. Mr. PROSSER - I move to amend the resolution, so as to include all the canals of the State as well as the Champlain canal. Mr. BECKWITH -I accept that amendment. The question was then put on the resolution as amended, and it was declared adopted. Mr. CHURCH called up for consideration a resolution offered by him yesterday. The SECRETARY proceeded to read the reso. lution as follows: Resolved, That the Comptroller and the Auditor of the Canal Department be requested to report to this Convention a statement of all sums advanced or paid for canal purposes or on canal debts, from other sources than canal revenues, and all sums advanced or paid from the canal revenues for other than canal purposes or on canal debts (specifying such purposes), in each year from 1817 to the present time; and also the interest upon each item from the time it was paid or advanced, to the present time, stating the items of interest separately from the items of principal. The question was then put on the resolution, and it was declared adopted. Mr. RATHBUN offered the following resolution: Resolved, That the Committee on Canals be requested to inquire into and report to this Convention, as to the propriety of requiring the several railroads in this State to establish annually, on or before the first day of May, a tariff of charges on freight to be transported on said roads, for the year thence ensuing: and also as to the propriety of restricting said roads from increasing said charges during said year, beyond such percentage as will compensate said roads for the increased expenses during the suspension of navigation upon the canals of this State. Which was referred to the Committee on Canals. Mr. VERPLANCK called up for consideration the resolution offered by him yesterday. The SECRETARY proceeded to read the resolution as follows: Resolved, That the Auditor of the Canal Department report to this Convention, the number of breaks in the Erie canal within the last ten years, the expense of repairing the same, and the length of time that each break interfered with the navigation of the said canaL The question was then put on the resolution, and it was declared adopted, Mr. BARTO called up for consideration the resolution offered by him yesterday. The SECRETARY proceeded to read from the resolution as follows: Resolved, That the Superintendent of Public Instruction be requested to prepare, as soon as possible and communicate to this Convention, a tabular statement, showing: 1. The whole number of children in each county in the State entitled to attend common schools each year since 1840. 2. The number of children attending such schools in the several counties each year since 1840, and the number not attending. 3. The amount of taxation imposed upon the people in the several counties of the State for school purposes, in each year since 1840, State, county, town, and municipal tax, each stated separately, and the percentage each of State, county, town, and municipal tax, upon the amount of taxable property. 4. The ratio of taxation to the whole number of children entitled to attend common schools in each year since 1840. 235 5. The ratio of taxation to the number actually in attendance in each year since 1840. 6. The ratio of increase in the attendance upon schools in each county, as taxation has been increased. 7. The number of such schools which have become free, and the year in which they became free. 8. The ratio of increase or decrease in attendance upon such schools in municipal corporations, as have been made free, to the whole number of children entitled to attend such schools. And further, that the Superintendent be requested to report to the Convention, how soon he can make the above statement. Mr. RATHBUN - I know but very little of the subject-matter of this resolution, but I have had some conversation with the Superintendent of Public Instruction and he stated that it would take all his clerks for six months to answer the inquiries contained in the resolution; that as to a large portion of the matter called for, there are no records in the office which would give it. The resolution goes back to a period when no records were kept and there are no means accessible for obtaining the information. I would suggest to the mover of the resolution that it would perhaps be better to consult with that officer and learn from him how much of the information he can furnish and in what time. It would be of very little use to the Convention to have a report made here six months hence, because, I suppose, it is very likely we shall have got through before that time with our labors. It seems to me we are rolling up these inquiries, requiring an amount of labor beyond the capacity of the department to furnish, when we ought, if we can, to restrict it so as to make it as available as possible. Mr. BARTO - I don't wish to require impossibilities from the Superintendent of Public Instruction, but I think it would be better to let the resolution go to him and let him report what information he can give and state the difficulties of giving the residue. If it is information he cannot give, I do not wish to trouble him with it. Mr. W. C. BROWN-I wish to say, it seems to me, it is entirely unnecessary for us to put the State to the expense of obtaining all this mass of information called for. I think the resolution ought to lie on the table and be printed, in order that we may see precisely and definitely what is called for, and inform ourselves what would be the probable expense and outlay of procuring the information. I move that the resolution do lie upon the table. The question was put upon the motion of Mr. W. C. Brown and it was declared carried. The Convention then resolved itself into a Committee of the Whole on the report of the Committee on the Right of Suffrage and the Qualifications to hold office, Mr. ALVORD, of Onondaga, in the Chair. Mr. C. C. DWIGHT-I do not rise, Mr. Chairman, to prolong the very interesting debate which toW, for two days, has occupied the attention of the Committee of the Whole, further than to say that it seems to me that the discussion, so far as it has proceeded, has disclosed the fact that the propositions reported by the Committee on the Right of Suffrage, and the Qualifications to hold Office, so far as they have been under consideration in this committee do not, either, in substance or in form meet the views of this Convention, nor are likely to be as acceptable to the people as the Constitution as it stands to-day, approved by the experience of twenty years with the advantage of judicial construction upon very many, if not all, of its provisions. I propose, therefore, sir, if it be in order, to offer as a substitute for the whole of the first section of the report of the committee, the following sections, and I will state in substance what they are. The first section is in the precise language of the first section of article two of the Constitution of 1846, except that it strikes out that provision, deemed invidious and unjust by very many, not only in this Convention, but of the people of this State, which imposes a property qualification upon a certain class of the citizens of this State. The second section proposed in this substitute is in the language of the second section of the present constitution, except that it embodies at its close one provision which is contained in this report of the committee, to wit.: After providing that the Legislature may pass laws depriving of the right to vote at any election, those persons who are interested in any bet or wager, it goes on to provide further that they may thus provide for depriving of such vote any person who shall receive or expect to receive pay, or offer to pay any money or valuable thing to influence or reward a vote to be given at any election. Such, sir, is the substitute which I propose to offer now, if it be m order. The CHAIRMAN-The Chair will inform the gentleman from Cayuga [Mr. C. C. Dwight] that an amendment to an amendment being already pending, his proposition is not now in order. Mr. KERNAN-If I withdraw the amendment which I have offered to the amendment of the gentleman from Ontario [Mr. Lapham], will it then make the proposition of the gentleman from Cayuga [Mr. C. C. Dwight] in order. The CHAIRMAN-If the proposition of the gentleman from Oneida [Mr. Kernan] is withdrawn, the amendment of the gentleman from Cayuga [Mr. C. C. Dwight] will be in order. Mr. KERNAN-Then I withdraw my amendment for that purpose. The CHAIRMAN-The gentleman from Oneida [Mr. Kernan] having withdrawn his amendment, the amendment of the gentleman from Cayuga [Mr. C. C. Dwight] is now in order. Mr. C. C. DWIGHT-I ask that the substitute be read. The SECRETARY proceeded to read the amendment as follows: Substitute for the whole of Section 1, the following: ~ 1. Every male citizen of the age of 21 years, who shall have been for ten days a citizen of the United States, and an inhabitant of this State one year next preceding an election, and for the last four months a resident of the county where he may offer his vote, shall be entitled to a vote at such election in the election district of which he shall be at the time a resident, and not 236 elsewhere, for all officers that now are or hereafter may be elective by the people; but such citizen shall have been for thirty days next preceding the election a resident of the district from which the officer is to be chosen for whom he offers his vote; Provided, That, in time of war, no elector in the actual military service of the United States. in the army or navy thereof, shall be deprived of his vote by reason of his absence from the State; and the Legislature shall have power to provide the manner in which, and the time and place at which such absent elector may vote, and for the canvass and return of their votes in the election districts in which they respectively reside, or otherwise. ~ 2. Laws may be passed excluding from the right of suffrage, all persons who may have been, or may be convicted of bribery, larceny, or of any other infamous crime;' and for depriving every person who should make or become directly or indirectly interested in any bet or wager dependent upon the result of any election, or who shall receive, expect to receive, pay or offer to pay any money or valuable thing, to influence or reward a vote to be given at any election, of the right to vote at such election. Mr. FOLGER-I wish to ask whether the amendment of the gentleman from Jefferson [Mr Bickford] has been withdrawn? The CHAIRMAN-The Chair understands that the amendment of the gentleman from Jefferson [Mr. Bickford], was withdrawn by the mover. Mr. FOLGER- Then it leaves pending only the amendment offered by myself? The CHAIRMAN - It leaves pending only the amendment offered by the gentleman from Ontario [Mr. Folger], as modified by the acceptance of the amendment offered by the gentleman from Ontario [Mr. Lapham]. Mr. FOLGER-Then is it in order for me to accept the amendment of the gentleman from Cayntga [Mr. C. C. Dwight]. The CHAIRMAN- It is in order. Mr. FOLGER -Then I accept the amendment. Mr. MURPHY -I offer the following amendment. The SECRETARY proceeded to read the amendment, as follows: Amend section 1 of article 1 by adding thereto, as follows: No man of color, unless he shall have been for three years a citizen of this State, and for one year next preceding any election shall have been seized and possessed of a freehold estate of the value of two hundred and fifty dollars, over and above all debts and incumbrances charged thereon, and shall have been actually rated and paid a tax thereon, shall be entitled to vote at such election; and no person of color shall be subject to direct taxation unless he be seized of such freehold estate" Provided, however, that if the qualified electors of the State shall, at the general election, to be held in November, 1867, on a proposition to be sepa'ately sub. mitted in relation to suffrage of men of color, shall determine in favor of suffrage to such men of color, then all persons of color shall be entitled to vote at any election, anything in the existing Constitution to the contrary notwithstanding. Mr. M. I. TOWNSEND-Early in this debateMr. MURPHY-I believe Mr. Chairman, I have the floor. The CHAIRMAN-The Chair is of the opinion that the gentleman from Kings [Mr. Murphy], is entitled to the floor in his proposition. Mr. M. I. TOWNSEND-If the gentleman desires it, certainly. The CHAIRMAN announced the pending ques. tion to be on the amendment offered by Mr. Murphy to the amendment offered by Mr. C. C. Dwight, to the amendment of Mr. Folger, and which had been accepted by Mr. Folger. Mr. MURPHY-The object of this amendment, perhaps, is sufficiently obvious, without any further explanation. Still, it may be necessary to give a brief statement of its purpose, the reasons of it, for the present, and possibly for the future understanding of it. It will be observed, sir, that it adopts the provision in the existing Constitution of the State, word for word, in regard to persons of color. It makes no change in that respect, except the contingency which it contemplates, to which I will presently refer. In presenting this amendment I have followed what I have believed to be the public sentiment of the State, as repeatedly and distinctly affirmed upon this subject. That sentiment has been adverse to extending the elective franchise indiscriminately to persons of color, because it seems inexpedient for political reasons, and because it was deemed by many morally and socially wrong. I, for one, concur in this view. I do not believe that the extension of the elective franchise to this class of persons will add any strength to our government; that it will tend to good government; but, on the contrary, that it will confound the races, and tend to destroy the fair fabric of democratic institutions, which has been erected by the capacity of the white race. I am aware, sir, of course, that this provision as it is in the existing Constitution, which is proposed by my amendment to be re-affirmed in the Constitution we are constructing, is inconsistent with the general principle which I have laid down, and that in permitting men of color to vote, with a property qualification, it will seem to admit their capacity, which is denied by the general proposition. If, sir, this were an open question, if it were a question to be considered for the first time, I would not introduce even the property qualification; but as the majority of the electors of this State by a very decided vote, have deemed it expedient to give the elective franchise to this portion of the class of persons to which it refers, I submit and do not deem it proper for me at this time to attempt to make any change. The only question with me is one simply of expediency and of good government. I deny in otot the principle which the gentleman from Rensselaer [Mr. M. I. Townsend] announced yesterday, and, I presume, will announce to-day when he takes the floor for that same purpose, that there is a natural right in man to participate in government. The honorable gentleman founded his argument yesterday upon the Declaration of Independence and upon the doctrines therein recited. The principle was laid down that " all men are created free and equal," 237 and "that government derives its just power from the consent of the governed. Now sir, in my judgment those doctrines laid down in the Declaration of Independence have no reference whatever to this question and cannot be introduced in support of the views of those who maintain the natural right to govern. If so, how strangely the men of the Revolution and the men who framed that instrument acted, and how inconsistent. Look at the Constitutions of the different States which were adopted after the Declaration of Independence; examine their provisions, and you will not find a single one in which a property qualification is not required of the elector, except perhaps in a single State, and that a southern State, and there only to a partial extent- I mean the State of Georgia, which did allow mechanics to vote for officers without a property qualification. Now could those men who sent forth that celebrated document which contains the principles to which the gentleman from Rensselaer [Mr. M. I. Townsend], referred, have intended in that enunciation to consider the right to vote-the right to govern, as it were-an inalienable, natural right? They could not have been guilty of the gross inconsistency which followed from their conduct in adopting the' State Constitution immediately afterward. What is a natural right -an inalienable right of man? It is a right which pertains to every human being, and pertains to him in all the relations of society; pertains to all conditions; pertains, of course, to the man of color as well as to the white man; pertains to the woman as well as to the man; and pertains to the child as well as to the grown person. It is the right, as specified in the Declaration of Independence itself, the right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness; the right to remove from one place to another. Perhaps there are others, but they may all be Summed up in that phrase of the Declaration of Independence itself, the right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. This pretended natural right of man to govern is a perfect absurdity. Where do you and I get the right to govern any one man? Whence comes this right of a majority to govern a minority? There is no natural right in that. It is merely a form of government which society has adopted as the best form of government; the right to vote is merely a right, as stated by the gentleman from Broomne [Mr. Hand], yesterday, conferred by society-a franchise to be exercised for the purPose of good government. Such are my views Of this question, and with such convictions have I presented this amendment. I will not go further. It is not necessary for me to say anything more in regard to the black man, than that I believe it is inexpedient, nay, it is wrong to place him upon a political equality which will lead to a 'ocial equality with the white race, tending as I said before, to confound the races, and bring us to a Condition not much superior, if they were in num. ers sufficient, to the people of Mexico. Of course do not apprehend any difficulty here from the Small number of blacks that may be introduced o this right of elective suffrage, but I stand Upon the principle. It is the great political ques tion that agitates the country, and the example of the State of New York would be used perhaps to introduce the elective franchise to blacks in communities where perhaps they may equal, if not outnumber my own race. Now, sir, without going any farther into this argument I will state further what is proposed by my resolution -I propose that this question of the extension of the right of suffrage shall be submitted to the people by a separate proposition. I think it is fairly to be presumed that the people of this State are opposed to negro suffrage (if not I may be allowed to use an expression without intending to convey by it anything offensive to the race); their repeated acts in that respect show it, and we should not endanger this Constitution by placing in its body, by incorporating in the instrument itself, a provision which is obnoxious to that majority, and which, of course, would cause them to reject the Constitution, however good you may make it in other respects. And in the amendment I propose, nothing is lost to those who believe that this right should be exercised by the negroes. If there is a majority of the people in this State who are disposed to confer on them the right of suffrage, it can be done under a separate provision and if they do so, no one will acquiesce in it sooner than I will. But I ask at the hands of this Convention. that the question may be submitted to those who form the constituent body of our government. I propose further in this proposition, that whatever may be the fate of the Constitution which we shall submit, whether it shall be adopted or not, if the majority of the people of this State shall determine that negro suffrage shall be the rule, it shall be incorporated in the present existing Constitution. Mr. M. I. TOWNSEND- In rising to discuss this question I must pause for a moment to congratulate my friend from Broome [Mr. Hand] upon his ally and upon the excellent use which he finds so soon made of that most statesmanlike doctrine which that gentleman laid down the other day. fIor some reason, which I am unable to explain, I seem to have given offense either to the intellectual or the sensitive man from Broome [Mr. Hand], and it resulted, certainly, in a very severe excoriation, under which I suffer somewhat at the present time. My friend from Broome [Mr. Hand] in the first place held me up here as the utterer of a monstrous doctrine, when I asserted that man had a natural right to participate in the administration of the government under which he lives. So much was the gentleman from Broome [Mr. Hand] excited, that he himself misunderstood Mr. FOLGER - Did the gentleman [Mr. M. I. Townsend] say the natural right to participate in the government, or the natural right to vote? Mr. M. I. TOWNSEND -The natural right to participate in the administration of the government under which he lives was the doctrine which I laid down. Mr. FOLGER-The gentleman [Mr. M. P Townsend] was misunderstood, for I think I distinctly heard him say the natural right to vote. 238 Mr. HAND - I certainly so understood. Mr. M. I. TOWNSEND-My friend [Mr. Hand] did not report me so in his speech. My friend from Ontario [Mr. Folger] must have mistaken the conversation we had in the library for a conversation we had in this Convention. Mr. FOLGER-Perhaps the change of phraseology was the result of that conversation. [Laughter.] Mr. M. I. TOWNSEND-If it was, I should not shrink even from the doctrine I laid down in the library to my friend from Ontario [Mr. Folger]; and I say to my friends who come here, instructed by their constituents to extend the right of suffrage to the colored race, that if they come upon this floor, and give up the argument at the outset, their colored friends will accomplish very little from their advocacy. But I will go on, if the gentleman. will allow me. I say that my friend from Broome [Mr. Hand] was so excited from some cause, I know not why, that he put into my mouth a word I certainly did not utter, and a word which the printed report of my remarks will show I did not utter, and that is the word ' inalienable," because I held then, as I hold now, that a man may alienate every right under the government under which he lives. I say my friend from Broome [Mr. Hand] held me up as a monster for having laid down the doctrine that a man had a natural right to participate in the administration of the government under which he lived, and after giving me an excoriation for laying down that dqctrineMr. HAND-I call the gentleman to order. Mr. M. I. TOWNSEND-I hope the gentleman will not interrupt me. Mr. HAND-I rise to a point of order. I deny having spoken of the gentleman as a monster, or using any languageThe CHAIRMAN-The Chair is of the opinion that under strict parliamentary rules the remarks of the gentleman from Rensselaer [Mr. M. I. Townsend] are not in order, although not for the reason assigned by the gentleman from Broome [Mr. Hand]. Mr. M. I. TOWNSEND-My remarks are directed to the printed report of the speech of that gentleman. Mr. HAND -The report does not show any snch language. I begThe CHAIRMAN -The Chair will inform the gentleman that order must be preserved in the committee. Mr. M. I. TOWNSEND -My remarks were directed to the printed speech of that gentleman, which I understandThe CHAIRMAN - The Chair will inform the gentleman from Rensselaer [Mr. M. I. Townsend] that his attention has been called to the fact by motion in the committee, and it must, therefore, hold that the gentleman [Mr. M. I. Townsend] cannot, under the guise of a debate, upon the proposition of the gentleman from Kings [Mr. Murphy], settle a controversy with the gentleman from Broome [Mr. Hand]. Mr. M. I. TOWNSEND -I would ask the Chairman if it would not be in order to discuss an argument which was presented against myself? Is not that pertinent to the debate? The CHAIRMAN- The Chair leaves the gen. tleman to proceed in his own way, and if he is out of order the Chair will call him to order. Mr. M. I. TOWNSEND-The question under discussion is the question, as I understand it, of the propriety of extending the right of suffrage to colored men, as well as to men that are not colored. And I hold on this question the same doctrine which I have had occasion to urge and reiterate before this committee, that men have a natural right to participate in the administration of the government under which they live; and as I was charged by the gentleman from Broome [Mr. Hand], before this committee, with an inconsistency in my views, and with holding doctrines which were (to adopt the phrase which that gentleman used literally) "absurd, I deem it proper, not wishing to trespass upon the rules laid down by the Chair, and if not deemed by the Chair out of order, to proceed to show that the argument urged against my position by the gentleman from Broome [Mr. Hand], was inconsistent with itself, in this; that whereas the gentleman from Broome [Mr. Hand] charged that this doctrine was absurd, that men had this natural right, he immediately went on to argue that I was guilty of a great moral wrong,-or that my argument wasin proposing to deny to men who were paupers, supported by the public taxes, the right of suffrage. Now, sir, if a man has not a right, I would ask how can the denial of what he claims as a right be wrong? If a man has no right to vote, how is it wrong to deny to men the privilege of voting? Can there be a wrong if there be no correlative right? If the colored man has no right to vote, how can it be wrong to deny him the right-to deny him the privilege of the elective franchise? If there be no right and wrong in regard to this matter, what guide have you but the uncertain guide of expediency? If there be no right to vote, what wrong can there be in a local Protestant majority denying the Catholic the right to vote, as was done by a majority of the citizens of this State, substantially, in the election of 1855? If there be no right, how can it be wrong for a local Catholic majority to deny the same to Protestants? If there be no right in the matter, certainly it cannot be wrong for the immense white majority of the State of New York to deny to the colored population of the State of New York the privilege of voting; and to bring the question a little nearer home, if there be no right in the question, would it be wrong for the colored population of the State of South Carolina, that outnumbers the white as two to one, to deny to the whites of the State the right and the privilege of voting? If there be no right as I have said, there can be no correlative wrong. Perhaps I am wrong in referring to any principle. Some gentlemen on this floor seem to think it was wrong to refer to the Declaration of Independence. Some gentlemen, perhaps, may think it wrong to refer to the christian scriptures; some gentlemen may think it wrong to refer to this matter here, but this question is coming home to the people of this country i a way that it has never come before. But, sir, we have got to come down upon the hard pan of 239 principle or we shall be afloat upon a boundless sent of those that occupied the land where the govsea, without chart or rudder. The gentleman from ernment was to operate - every one of them, and Broome [Mr. Hand], says that it is absurd to say it is too late now to talk about either the divine that a man has any naturial rights, but he locates right of kings, the divine right of" the powers that this right in society. Somebody has this right. be," the divine right of anything, except the right Here is a power to be exercised. It is a power of man to govern himself as he shall judge best that is sought to be exercised of right. Where for his interest and for the interests of his counlies the right of government? In whom is it try. When the hardy pioneer goes out beyond the vested? In whom is the right of suffrage settlements, he goes out alone; he has neither vested? Why, sir, from the day when Nimrod wife nor child.. He plants his cabin-he is alone. rode down the world rough-shod, as the mighty Does society govern him there? He has selected hunter in Asia, down to now, this doctrine has been a choice spot. By and by a neighbor comes, then discussed, and until the landing of the pilgrims another and another, until they have five hunupon our shores the doctrine was, that the right dred; they consult together and say it is time we of government rested in royalty, and that came had some government here, framed by common from God. That is the picture that the human race consent; we will organize ourselves. An organihas been set to look upon for nearly six thou- zation is formed, and just at that time comes along sand years, a picture that has been held up for uni- the gentleman from Broome [Mr. Hand], and he versal gaze and admiration, that this right rested says, " How are the people governed here?" The in royalty, that the right to govern was of first settler says, "I have something to say about divine appointment, and that the individual had this thing; there are five hundred of us; I am no right to participate in government. Shall we do, one of them, and we govern ourselves. We are sir, as a distinguished individual in our country did, laying the foundation for one of those States; in regard to the picture of Sir Robert Peel? It is perhaps I am going to become a Senator in said that a distinguished individual in the United Congress by and by, as the pioneers of most States took a finely engraved picture of Sir Robert of the States have done. I have something Peel, with all its parts perfect, to an engraver, and to say about this thing; I have some right had the head taken out and his own inserted. Shall here." But the gentleman from Broome says, we take this picture of oppression that has been "You have no rights, your rights rest in society." held up to the world for six thousand years, and That hardy pioneer will reply to the gentleman cut out the head of Sir Robert Peel? No; cut out from Broome. " I was here before society was. the head of royalty and put in the head of society, I have seen the day when I was the only man in and still hold this picture up as a terror to our chil- this broad domain; I had rights then; I have dren, or to the admiration of our children. Our agreed to let my neighbors have just the same government did not originate in that way.. It was rights that I have, but I was here before society no bastard Norman tyrant that originated our was here." The pilgrim fathers were in New government. I do not know the origin of the England before society was. That is the Amerigentleman from Broome [Mr. Hand], but my opinion can principle of government. We have not done is, that if the gentleman will reflect back, he will what the man did in regard to the portrait of Sir reach the day when his blood, some portion of it Robert Peel; we have not taken the old picture at least, was sitting down in the cabin of a of tyranny-and oppression and cut out the name of little ship off the shores of New England, sovereign, cut out the name of prince, cut out the where there was no society except our Indian doctrine of divine right of kings, and put in the brethren, who are now pretty nearly extinct, in the divine right of society. Sir, there is a moral right, far West, and consulting there as to what should and a moral wrong; whether it be right to say it be the government of that people when they landed or not; whether it be reasonable or not: whether upon the shores of this country, and resolving it be republican or not. What if all the writers that, as far as possible, they would be governed talk about sovereignty - talk about society. by the rules laid down in the Word of God, until In the discussion between the plain man and they had time for further discussion. Suppose the philosopher, the philosopher wound up the the gentleman from Broome [Mr. Hand] had been plain man in the argument, and showed there; suppose that in that little cabin his fine conclusively there was no such thing as presence had been found, and lie had frowned motion. What did the plain man do? He just upon them and told them that their very talk was rose up and walked. And while theorists are preabsurd; that society had the right to regulate that tending and contending here that men have no government; that they had none. "You, rights, we form twenty-four governments, and John Robinson; you, Miles Standish; you, John if that will not be enough, and the land alden it is nothing to you; you have no rights. will hold out, we will form twenty-four t ls society that is to govern Massachusetts and more, by common consent, where each man [he olony of Plymouth. Society must do it. You has an equal right in the formation of that hAe no right." Let me suppose another case. government. There is no divine society; the people of tlhis country ought not to be mis- man was before society. God made man; man aken on this subject. We are a government made society; men have made governments, and aaking people. We started, at the close of the all these divine governments that oppressed the eolution in this country, upon this experiment world in ancient times and modern times, were f government with but thirteen sovereign States; the mere work of man's hand-the work of We have now thirty-seven. Every one of them violence. Our government does not rest upon asbeen formed-how? By society? Every one violence. It rests upon the common consent. It of the twenty.four has been formed by the con- is too late in the day to hold up any man as 240 advocating an absurd doctrine, who contends that politics, I have looked on him not only as an there is such a thing as human rights; who con- honest statesman but as a most excellent gentletends that any government has no right to oppress man in public and private life. Had he been its citizens and deprive them of the exercise of alone the representative of that great party, I their natural rights which God has given them, should take every word he utters as gospel; but, unless those natural rights have been forfeited. sir, he was but one man in all that body of men, Now. sir. in regard to the colored man in particular, and we must judge from what we saw and what because this was the necessary foundation of we heard; and if I misrepresent, I do it from the discussion of that question; the gentleman impressions which I gained at that day, and from Kings [Mr. Murphy] says that the people of which certainly will never be effaced from my the State are evidently opposed to allowing the memory; and I confess now when I have seen at right of suffrage to colored men. Does that any time since 1855 gentlemen either in public make any odds with our action? I do not concede assemblies or out of them, maintaining the Cath. the fact. We have lived a great while since 1846, olic faith, and struggling to exclude the colored and although a few who held up the doctrine of cx- race from the right of suffrage, I have felt a tending suffrage to colored men in 1848, have degree of wonder that they, of all men, should gone back, the people with whom they live have not be touched with a feeling for the disability not. The people of this State have been march- that rests upon the black man. Now sir, I ing forward since 1846 up to a higher standard, will continue my argument, and ask, if the a purer faith upon that subject. But, sir, let me vote of 1855 had been cast in 1866, would we suppose a case. Should we for a moment tolerate be justified in sending down a Constitution to the the idea that if the vote in 1855 had been cast last people, which proposed the disfranchisement of fall, it would be right for us to say that men pro- all the men holding to the Catholic faith in the fessing the Catholic faith should not be permitted to State of New York? If my doctrine be heretical vote. Such was the verdict, as I read it, as the vote it gives me an immense advantage. I have a showed in 1855. No, sir, the men that held the much larger brotherhood than my friends who doctrine that men had rights in 1855, and the men have different views on this subject. I look upon who hold now the doctrine that men have rights, a man who happens to be situated a little differno sooner put their hands- ently from myself as my brother, as I have to, Mr. E. BROOKS-Will the gentleman allow me recognizing this principle, as a man possessing the to interrupt him for a moment? I wish to say, as same rights that I possess. I know he has the having some knowledge of the vote of 1855 and same destiny, I know that he has the same origin. of the popular sentiment of that day, that the Although a Protestant myself of the straightest gentleman [Mr. M. I. Townsend] is not warranted sect, I can recognize a man of Catholic faith as my in drawing any such conclusion from that vote, brother, entitled to all the rights I possess. and that there was never any party in this State Although it has happened in the providence of to the best of my knowledge and belief, that ever God, that I have inherited from some stock of my proposed the disfranchisement of any men on ancestors, a light complexion, I can take into account of their religious faith. brotherhood all my brethren whether they claim Mr. M. I. TOWNSEND-I know that that has to be of the Caucasian race, or not, and who have been freqently asserted, but as far as that doctrine a complexion a little darker than myself. They is concerned, I am putting myself in an atti- are all my brethren. They have the same rights tude of that plain man I referred to some time ago, that I have A respected friend of mine, who was who after being convinced or convicted by a phil- a democrat with me in 1846, and who holds to the osopher that there was no such thing as motion, democratic faith now-and who I see before me, set himself to walking. I participated in the said on that occasion, when he and I were brother struggles that day. I listened to the discussions democrats together and both voted to extend sufof public speakers, and I saw what was done as frage to the colored man; "I will not stand up far as it could be done in the State of New York. before my God, and deny to any man a right I occasionally took a look into the newspapers pub- which I claim for myself." My friendship has been lished in the city of' New York, and I think in a great for that man, and if I see a spot for paper called the New York Express, I read articles the moment on his fair escutcheon I shall against the Catholic population of this State. If always remember what there is lying below I understand the tendencies of the party holding it a substratum of principle pure and broththese sentiments here in the State of Now York, erly. it was as I have described-certainly in the State Mr. GERRY-Will the gentleman allow me of Massachusetts they went forward- to ask him a question? I would like to ask the Mr. E. BROOKS - I wish to say to the gentle- gentleman, whether in regard to his African man [Mr. M. I. Townsend] that he is mistaken brother, he is disposed to favor the intermarriage when he refers to the journal which he has of the races, and social equality? named, or when he refers to what was the object Mr. M. I. TOWNSEND-I have some trouble of the powerful political party in the State he on that subject [laughter], and for this reason: refers to, and that he misrepresents, unintention- the posterity of such unions are placed in a most ally, I believe, was the doctrine of that party at uncomfortable position -a most uncomfortable that time. position. [Laughter]. I came from a State, that Mr. M.I. TOWNSEND-I have the utmost defer- was proud to call its great democrat, who first held ence for the gentleman [Mr. E. Brooks] who has a prominent position, by the name of my friend just sat down. I had at that day occasion to know who has just interrupted me [Mr. Gerry], and that gentleman, and, although we differed in in that State, neither then nor now, have we 241. ever had any jealousy of the negro [laughter]; and neither his ancestors nor mine have ever felt any fear that, in a fair contest, the negro would get the advantage in the race of life! [Great laughter.] I wish to say another word to my friend [Mr. Gerry]. I said I was opposed to the mingling of the races, particularly in regard to its effect on posterity in case of the intermarriage of the races. I will say to my friend [Mr. Gerry] another tling: I am opposed to that illicit concubinage, practiced at the South by that party, to which my friend belongs,and which has scattered a black and white posterity over the Southern States, until any field of the so-called African population, looks like a race of what are called skunk-blackbirds. [Laughter.] Sir, there is no danger of the intermingling of the race by a man who respects his own blood. There are those who hold that the colored race are inferior to the white race; there are those who hold the colored race to be a sort of higher order of animals, and they are the men who mingle their blood with this same inferior race, leaving the posterity to make their way in the world as best they can since emancipation, and who before that day sold not only their own children, but the mothers who bore them. I hope the gentleman [Mr. Gerry] considers himself answered. Now, sir, I am opposed to the proposition of the gentleman from Kings [Mr. Murphy] for another reason, you cannot permanently do injustice to any people without degrading the majority which works that injustice. And as my friend [Mr. Wakeman] spoke of me the other day as the "venerable gentleman from Rensselaer," I will say 1 have seen something of the political action of this State, and I think I do no injustice to the campaign of 1855, when I say, I consider that campaign, and the raid upon the Catholic population of this State connected with it, as the most demoralizing political storm that has ever swept over the State of New York. It was most ltterly demoralizing; and it was so because it proposed to do a wrong to the Catholic people. And how did they justify it? By charging everything that was wrong, whether true or false, upon the Catholics of this country or other countries throughout the world. It was the staple of discussion in the political mind, that those people were immoral, that they were dishonest, that they were ridden by their priests, and that under the direction of their priests they violated every obligation, social, moral, and political, until, sir, the feeling thus engendered, ripened, in Louisville, into a mob which proposed to exterminate the Catholic population, and under which the streets or St. Louis ran with blood. And, sir, I Would submit it to the older Democrats of this Convention, if they believe that the moral tbe of the Democrat party of the State of New York has been in any way improved by the ceaseless tirade of abuse upon the helpless negroes, that have prevailed in their political discussions since theyear 1848? Has the moral tone, or the moral status of the Democratic party, been improved by it? No, sir. if we do a man a wrong, we have got to charge evil upon that man to justify us in doing it. It is an old adage, and one that should not be forgotten, that, altlough a man may forgive 31 wrongs done him, he never forgives the wrongs he does to others. So far as this matter is concerned, there is no man upon this floor, nor in this State, of white origin, who does not feel that the black man came from the hand of the same God that he did. There is not a man in society but knows the black man has not only the same origin, but the same destiny, and that it is worldly circumstances which has made their destinies to differ. If a man has looked at all into the history of the world, he knows that the light-haired Tenton, as light as himself, is the full brother of the Brahmin, with red hair, white complexion and light eyes, in the Himalaya mountains, and is the full brother of tile Bralmin of South Hindostan, as black as the ace of spades. The gentleman knows that the Brahmin of South India is talking the same language as we of boasted Saxon blood are talking today, the Sanscrit being the mother of both tongues; or if he does not know it, he had better read up. I know that men get up theories to the contrary of this idea of human brotherhood. It is to save the necessity of these theories, that I would have this principle established. It is said that we are not of the same race-not of the same blood. Why? Because, they say, the union of the black and the white produces a diseased animal, and they soon expire. This doctrine has been a favorite doctrine. It is said they do not multiply beyond the first multiplication, and that they are short lived. That would be proclaimed in a lecture-room in New Orleans, and published in the newspapers and preached in the pulpit, and the men assenting to it walked out to the auction-block and paid two hundred dollars more for a negro half white and half black, of the age of forty for a field hand than he would for a full black and simply because he was a "diseased animal" and could not perpetuate the race. That negroes were to be of a different race, the people were convinced in that lecture room And you would find the same man, with convictions thus strong, having a family raised by a Caucasian in a house in one street, and another family by a quadroon in another street. The doctrine now is a sort of literary doctrine at times. And yet Alexander Dumas pere is not more celebrated than Alexander Dumas fils, the father an octoroon, and the son a still further substitution of colors. I believe that Fred. Douglass has not an unhealthy family. Sir, nobody believes this doctrine. It is mere pretense. I propose to talk rather freely on this subject. I want to dispel some of these illusions. A man says "I have seen a great many colored people having white blood in them who are scrofulous." Ahl you have. "and," he asks, "how could that be unless the race is unhealthy?" I will tell you how that came about. It came from the physical character and condition of the father who mixed his blood with the black woman; for until a man had run his blood and his system and moral sympathies down, he would not risk the raising of posterity by the mixing of black blood and white, and thus the mulatto has the accumulated diseases of the father. But now all things are charged, forsooth, to the colored race. What exterminated the Indians? Not the bullet; not the tomahawk; for even the settlera 242 used the tomahawk as well as the Indians; but some of these vile diseases that are scattered through the Indian tribes by the miserable whites who have mixed their blood with theirs. But again, sir, we are told that the physical formation of the black race is such that they cannot be identical with the white. People who advocate the restriction of the rights of the blacks feel they must give a reason for it. They feel the truth of the doctrine that I have laid down. Every man feels and knows that every other man has a natural right. They tell us there are physiologists who have discovered that there are certain physiological differences-that in the human system there is a bony substance in a particular part of the white man, where there is a cartilage in the same part of the colored man. It is not long since, to satisfy the behests of slavery that Agassiz went to Charleston to work out the doctrine which was so satisfactory to a people who had so long flourished and prospered upon the wrong they had done the black race. And yet it is found that the great naturalist made a fatal mistake that will stick to him as long as he lives. I have been betrayed into an incidental discussion on this subject more general than I intended, but do not intend to apologize for it to the committee. I feel as though it was due to the subject and due to myself. I now desire for a few moments, to call the attention of the majority of this Convention to another subject under consideration. I said in the course of my remarks, when once before on the floor, since we have been in Committee of the Whole, that I saw no moral wrong in denying the right of suffrage to the pauper who lived upon the public taxes of the State. I put it upon this ground, that the pauper who is supported by public taxation was in the tutelage and under the control of the dispenser of the taxes devoted to his support. He placed himself in an attitude where he was not a free man. Now, sir, I have no right to complain if the majority of this Convention shall differ with me on that subject, because, under my rule, we not only have in this Convention, but out of it, a most perfect right of private judgment and action. But I wish for a moment to call the attention of my friend from Broome [Mr. Hand], and the committee, to this one consideration in relation to the dispensers of relief to the out-door poor, to say nothing about those in the almshouse, as it has been stated on this floor, that in the city of New York, those" persons have the power of aiding and refusing aid to not less than 15,000 at a time. I will estimate, for I have no estimate from others, that there are 6,000 in the city of Brooklyn. I will estimate, for there is no estimate by others, that there are from five to eight hundred in the city of Albany. I will estimate, upon my own knowledge, that they will amount to from three to five hundred in the city of Troy. Nlow sir, when the election comes I have no doubt that my friend from Broome [Mr. Hand], like a good citizen,goes out into the towns of his county, and discusses political questions, and so far as I know he has always made the people of that county or a majority of them think with him. He can give from eight hundred to a thousand or fif teen hundred majority in the direction in which he votes. When he gets through with the people in this county, who have voted upon their understanding and their convictions, and upon their free will, he is met by fifteen thousand votes in the city of New York which are completely under the control of the possessors of power; by five thousand in the city of Brooklyn; by from five to eight hundred in the city of Albany, and by three hundred in the city of Troy, to go no fur. ther west. I think at that time the gentleman [Mr. Hand] and his constituents would begin to come to the conclusion that it would be better to consider for a moment the strange doctrines preached by that strange man from Rensselaer, and see if there were not something in it. I wish to call the attention of the majority of this Convention to a remark which dropped from the gentleman from Kings [Mr. Barnard]. I thank him for it, and it is a text that perhaps we need not preach from; but it is a text upon which we should reflect. That gentleman, in his frankness, told us that those who were aided by the present state of things would of course resist any change in the Constitution. Did not you think so, Mr. Chairman, when the gentleman had concluded his speech yesterday? It will not be the men that control the five thousand votes, it will not be the men that control the fifteen thousand votes who are prepared to give up the powers they possess and place themselves upon a footing of equality with the rest of the State. I have used the term "majority " in this Convention. Am I right in doing so? One, perhaps, says " no." I yesterday read in a paper called the Albany Argus (which a delegate in this body has certainly something to do with, whom I see on the other side of the house), an article in which this doctrine was held, that the Democratic party were not responsible for the frauds and corruptions of the last Legislature, because the Republicans had a majority in either body. le did not stop to discuss the question whether his political friends were responsible, whether some of them had been sharing, but he very properly carried the argument out to the people, that the majority of that House were responsible for its action. When the work of this Convention shall have been done, we may run off on this hobby, or on that hobby or the other, but tlhe people of this State will hold the majority of this Convention responsible for its action. We are not even tied up as the gentleman from Suffolk proposed to tie us up yesterday. He proposed to deprive us of certain appendages, that a certain fox was deprived of, to render the majority powerless here by a rule of the Convention, which would prevent our taking action. The responsibility of whatever is done in this assembly, rests upon the majority of this house, and if we go out to our constituents denying, halfway, to the colored man, those rights that every member of the Republican party acknowledges he possesses, and to which every member of the minority here possesses, the people of this State will hold us responsible. If we go out from here with a Constitution so framed, that the city of New York, the city of Brooklyn, the city of Albany and the city of Troy can overwhelm the independent voters of this 243 State by the pauper taxes of those cities, it is we who not only have got to suffer, but we are responsible. Let me call the attention of the majority of this Convention to another consideration in this connection. What is the power of the city of New York? If I read rightly in the public press, it has the power of raising twenty-two millions of dollars per annum in taxes. How are the rest of the State to stand up against it if the men who dispense these taxes use them to corrupt the voters of the State? I do not say that they would do so any sooner than they would in the western part of the State. I would not trust, in the county of St. Lawrence, that power in the hands of an overseer of the poor any more than I would in the city of New York. I don't speak of the city of New York invidiously, I speak of the city of New York because there is an aggregate of population, and an aggregate of power and of wealth in the city of New York, to which nothing else in this State can compare. I would just as soon check this power in St. Lawrence, or in Chautauqua, as I would in that city, I ask no rule to be applied to the republican portion of the State that would not apply to the city of New York. Mr. SMITH-I trust that the amendment of the gentleman from Kings [Mr. Murphy] will not prevail. While I agree with him fully in his premises, I am compelled to dissent in toto from the conclusion; and on the other hand, while I am compelled to differ from my friend from Rensselaer [Mr. M. I. Townsend] in his premises, I agree with him in his conclusion. It is desirable that we place this question of the right of suffrage upon the proper basis. The question discussed here is, whether the elective franchise is a natural right, or whether it is a political right? My reading and reflection have led me to the conclusion that it is a political right and not a natural right. What is a natural right? Why, as has been said, truly, it is a right which inheres in humanity, a right which God gave man when he created him, a right which pertains tohim under all circumstances and conditions. It belongs to the man, it belongs to the woman, it belongs to the child. And if we were to adopt this doctrine that it is a natural right that every man has to participate in the administration of the government, why then I see no reason why we should not bestow it upon the woman, upon the minor, upon the foreigner and upon the pauper. Perhaps we could better understand it by asking the question. What is civil government? As I iudcerstand it, sir, the very idea of civil governmlent pre-supposes the existence of society. Society is a divine institution. Man was made by God to live in society, and civil government is the mere aIgent of society. It may be defined properly, I think, to be the power or instrument, by which society regulates the civil conduct of its members, atd secures their rights and liberty. It is a nere instrument which they wield. It is not an end, but only a means. If this be so, then the riglt to participate in the administration of government, while it belongs to society, as a whole, belongs to no particular individual of that society. Soeiety may bestow it, or withhold it, as to societY shall seem proper and right. Of course it must be exercised according to the rules of jus tice and equality. But when we come to the question of natural right, I contend, sir, that no man in society has the natural right to participate in the administration of government. And I venture to affirm that you can find no respectable writer upon the science of civil government, who adopts the theory, that voting, or the right to participate in the government, is a natural right. Then, sir, the question arises, upon what ground shall we exclude any portion of society from participating in the administration of government? There are certain rules which we may adopt safely, although it is often difficult to determine when we ought to grant, or withhold that privilege. For instance, if any portion of society be hostile to the interests of society, then society may forbid their participating in the administration of government. If there be a class of society utterly incompetent to understand the true ends and best interests of society, then, undoubtedly, society may exclude that class from this political right. There are other grounds of exclusion which it is not necessary now to mention. But says my friend from Rensselaer [Mr. M. I. Townsend], the Declaration of Independence affirms that all men are endowed by their Creator with certain inalienable rights. I do not derive the political right of the colored man to participate in government from that clause of the declaration, but from another, which seems to have been overlooked in this discussion. There are two great truths enunciated in that instrument which, though intimately related, are distinct in their character. The first is that "all men are created equal." The second is that they are "endowed by their Creator with certain inalienable rights," "among which are life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness." Now, sir, I do not place the political right of the colored man to vote, upon this declaration of inalienable rights, or upon a natural right; but upon the broad declaration of the equality of all men, and upon that basis it will stand, and stand firm. "All men," says the declaration " are created equal." Equal in what I Why, not equal in intellect, of course, because as described by Pollock, while there are some who "know all knowledge and all science known," there are others who " never had a dozen thoughts in all their life." Not equal in physical structure or in moral qualities, for in these particulars there are the widest differences among mankind. Not equal in social condition, for there is, in that respect, a marked difference among men. But, sir, they are equal in natural and political rights. Equal before the law. In that sense all men are equal, and for that reason I would not refuse to the colored man the right to participate in the administration of government. Why make this distinction in regard to them? Do gentlemen believe the Declaration of Independence, which declares that all men are created equal? If we believe it, and accept it, then there is no excuse and no good reason for excluding the colored man because he is a colored man, for that is the only reason that can be assigned for his exclusion. I know, sir, that a few years ago, when this question was submitted to the peeple, another reason may have operated upon the minds of some men. There was an 244 institution then existing at the South which had society inhered the political power of government. its influence upon the question. It was It had the right to say who should participate in deemed expedient for political parties to the administration of government. Society should secure the, favor of the ruling class at not, for improper causes, exclude persons; it the South, and in order to do so, should not make invidious distinctions-should it was thought necessary, in accordance not deny the equality of all men, which is with the spirit and practice of that institution, to announced in our Declaration of Independ. degrade and oppress the colored man. But that ence. My friend from Rensselaer [Mr. M. I. institution has passed away. There is another Townsend] also remarks that until our governstate of things now. Slavery is wiped out, and ment was formed, the idea always prevailed, of the reasons which then existed for denying the the divine right of kings. I think if he will ex. right of suffrage to the colored man exist no amine the early history of the world, especially longer. But, says my friend from Kings [Mr. as recorded in the Bible, he will find that he is Murphy], the political equality of men will mistaken. During the sixteen or seventeen cenlead to social equality; and by an inquiry turies that followed the creation of man there put by another gentleman, it seems that existed the Patriarchal government. The father men have before their eyes the apprehension of a family was the civil ruler as well as the priest. that there will be social equality in the State. Following that was the Hebrew cornBut, sir, it seems to me that the idea of equality monwealth, and there the principal of free before the law, equality in political rights, and government was established by God himself. On social equality, have no connection with each Mount Sinai the Israelites entered into a covenant other. I would inquire of the gentleman from with God, that they would accept him as their Kings [Mr. Murphy], does he now invite into his civil ruler. They voluntarily chose God, and He parlor the lower and degraded classes of men remained, during the entire continuance of the who vote at every election, and others whom he Hebrew commonwealth, the civil ruler of that seeks to enfranchise? Does he mingle on terms people. Following that was the line of kings, of social equality with them, and if not. why but they were given in judgment. They demanded would he be under any necessity of mingling a king and God sent them a king in judgment for on terms of social equality with the colored their rebellion against him as their civil ruler. man if he were enfranchised? The laws of social Afterward followed other despotic governments, equality are regulated by principles applicable but under the circumstances of their introduction to them alone, and not by principles applicable to aud existence, they afford no countenance to the political equality. The gentleman also says that he doctrine of the divine right of kings. The right fears, if they are permitted to vote, it will destroy of self government does not necessarily confer the fair fabric of Democratic government. Is our upon every member of society the right to particigovernment based upon a foundation so frail, that pate in its administration. That right, I repeat, allowing a few colored men to vote-one in seven- belongs to society as a whole, but not to every ty-seven of the voters of the State of New York, member of it. If we place the doctrine upon (for that is the proportion of the colored men) - this ground, it will be upon a firm and a sound would destroy the fabric of our freedom? basis; but if we place it upon the ground If so, we had better lay anew the foundations that it is a natural right, we are meeting with of the government. It is, sir, in brief, difficulty at every step of our progress. We shall for these reasons, that I am opposed to the find other questions here to encounter before we amendment of the gentleman from Kings [Mr. get through. Female suffrage will be demanded Murphy]. I did not rise with the view of making on the ground of natural right. If I believed extended remarks at this time, upon this question, suffrage to be a natural right, I should vote or going at length into its discussion; but it to-day to grant it to women, but believing it to be seemed to me that the right which we claim for a political right merely- one which societv may the colored man, was placed upon an improper withhold or give as it deems just and proper, basis, and we shall gain nothing by placing it I shall vote upon that matter as I find it upon a wrong basis. It will stand firmly upon expedient to do when the question comes up. its, true basis; and that basis is, in my judg- Mr. HAND -I feel very unwilling to intrude ment, not a natural right, but a political any matters relating to personal feelings upol this right. It is a right growing out of the equality Convention, or to waste the time of these gentleof all men before the law, that equality with men, in correcting a matter which, I think no mem which God endowed them. My friend from ber of this Convention could have misunderstood, Rensselaer [Mr. M. I. Townsend] remarks that in relation to what I said the day before yesterday. there is no such thing as a divine right in society. but for the sake of the gentleman from Rensselaer He says that the little band of pilgrims in the [Mr. M. I. Townsend], I wish to correct one ns Mayflower, formed their Constitution before apprehension. He says I called him a "monster" society existed. Why, sir, what constitutes Well, now, this speech of his will go Qcu to the society? When Adam was first formed, and extremity of the State where I am known, and they placed in the Garden of Eden, there was no will think perhaps ho is a " monster," if I said so, society; there was one man; but when Eve and to correct this, I take it upon myself to was made, to become his companion and help- give my opinion about the gentleman. I think meet, then there was society. And when the gentleman from Rensselaer [Mr. M. I. Townthe little band in the Mayflower joined together send] is not a monster. He is not a monster and formed the first free Constitution of this physically, but a well-proportioned, fine-looking country, they acted as a society, and in that man, whose appearance here any of us would like 245 to have. Morally he is not a monster, I have no I supported that, but he did not touch them. It doubt he is conscientious. He shows it in all he would have pleased me more. It would have says, in the spirit that actuates him when he is not shown more cool, calm thought, and close reasonover excited. Intellectually he is not a monster, ing; it would have shown more conclusively I don't think he reasons very closely, but I think to this Convention if he had really dihe reasons very conscientiously. I think he fails gested that subject, and was ready to grapnaturally to understand abstract principles, and to pie with its mighty problem. He asked go down to the foundation of the superstructure if a pauper had no right to vote, how of our government. I think the gentlemen of it could be wrong to withhold that privilege? I the Convention will agree with me, but I esteem did not claim the right of a pauper to vote as an him very highly. His history is the history of inalienable or natural right. I claimed it was the politics of this State. It comes out in bold wrong to exclude him from the right of suffrage, relief; he has been a faithful advocate of sound for the reasons that the gentleman gave - his doctrine. He has exercised a wholesome influ- poverty, his misfortune, incurred, as I insist, in, ence over the politics of his region, and I am thousands of cases, in the service of his country, happy to compliment him upon the high position in our great struggle for our national existence. that he has attained. He complains that I mis- Why did not the gentleman reply to this? I represented 'him, by saying that he used the word based it specially upon that ground, and not upon "inalienable." I did not misrepresent him. any natural right. Now, this subject has been He quoted the Declaration of Independence, the pretty well discussed. The gentleman in my rear words of Jefferson, and in quoting those words, [Mr. Smith], spoke very well upon the subject, and he made them his own. He says Jefferson's doc- I accord fully with his views; but I will, if it is not trine was, that men were endowed by their Cre- out of order, go back to the foundation of society ator with certain " inalienable " rights. He made and see where rights originate, and what is their nathat word his own. ture. If I live in a forest or on a mountain top alone, Mr. M. I. TOWNSEND-Will the gentleman no man would have a right to question what I from Broome [Mr. Hand] allow me to call his should do. I might blaspheme the Almighty; I attention to the fact that the word "inalienable" might commit any outrage whatever, for no man as used in the Declaration of Independance, does and no neighbor could be affected by what I not relate to that clause which says that govern- should do. But let another man come near me, ments derive their just powers from the consent and claim the right to reside on the same ground of the governed. It is the other clause in it, the where I reside, and he assumes immediately the right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. right to question what I do, because what Mr. HAND-This "life, liberty and the pursuit I do will affect him and his interests. That of happiness," includes the whole government. is the beginning of society. On that is based The right would be nonsense if it did not include his right to inquire, and his right to control that. If we have not the right to enter into a me in my action. Another man comes there, combination, and to make laws for our own secu- and another and another, and relations become rity, then what is the natural right to life, liberty complicated, and laws more complicated are necesand happiness? What does it amount to? In sary. At length a man comes there, and brings using the words of Jefferson he made them his his wife and daughter. He claims that that wife own, therefore I was right in saying he based his and that daughter shall have the same rights in whole argument in favor of the natural right to the community which the rest of us have. We vote on this doctrine of Jefferson. He repeated it consult together, and judge whether the public in language very eloquent, very bold, very frank. interests, the interests of us all, would be best It seemed to me better fitted for the stump than subserved by a plan of that kind, and we decide for a deliberative assembly like this Convention. against it. We immediately look to the interThere was much of the spread eagle about it; ests of the whole. That, sir, is the origin of those things are well in their place. society. The moment we enter into society The CHAIRMAN- The Chair has permitted our natural rights are held in abeyance, and this debate to have a wide range, and does not their extent depends entirely upon the interests desire, therefore, to curtail the remarks of any of society, as I showed in my remarks the other gentleman in the committee that it now speaks; but day. I do not claim that the colored man shall if any gentleman of the committee shall rise to a vote on the ground of natural right; but I hold point of order the Chair will endeavor to enforce that the reason for which he is excluded is the the strict rules of parliamentary debate. The worst of all reasons in the world. The same docgentleman from Broome [Mr. Hand], will proceed. trine that gives me a right to vote gives him a right Mr. HAND - Have I transgressed the rules in to vote. I have yet to hear (with due deference to ny remarks? what the gentleman from Kings [Mr. Murphy] has The CHAIRMAN -The Chai- leaves that to said, the first semblance of an argument that is tle committee, worthy of the intellect of a boy ten years.Mr. HAND -I simply said that certain prin- of age against the right of the colored man ciples brought forward in this Convention, were to vote. If I vote, why not let my colored brother absurb, and among them, that the right to vote vote? They resort to a vile prejudice-to what was a natural right. I refuted that doctrine laid somebody taught twenty years ago. I hope that down by the gentleman from Rensselaer [Mr. M. we have outgrown that darkness in this State, *. Townsend], and would be better pleased and that we have made some strides in progress With the very eloquent speech that he has just during the lapse of twenty years, and that we are ade if he had answered the arguments by which not to be bound to and tied to the thoughts and 246 doings of olden times. I hold to the right of the when they are on an equality with the stronger, negro to vote, because he holds the same rela- I do not propose to go into the general discussion, tion to the government that I do. The color I should not have spoken of it at all, had it not of his skin is the merest accident in his or- been for the purpose of setting my friend from ganism, and is of no consequence; and the Rensselaer [Mr. M. I. Townsend], right. Now, physiologist who, for political purposes, to perhaps I have transgressed the rules again. I build up a miserable doctrine, pretends there is was not very much excited. For if I had carried any essential anatomical difference between the that feeling which the gentleman exhibited fortwo white man and the black man is a quack, I do not days I should have had an attack of sickness. I care who he is. The same book of anatomy could not have come here under the state of feel. which describes the colored man describes the ings that did exist with my friend possibly. I white man. Look over any work which you made such a speech as I thought the whole subject choose, and you will see that the anatomy of the demanded, and I thought that an erroneous white man describes the anatomy of the black doctrine had been brought forward that would man, and that the little variations existing are no be used in the discussion of other subjects. greater than you will find in inhabitants of When we come to discuss the sale of intoxicating the same race. You will find less varia- liquors you will hear it said that a man has tions between the two races than you a right to drink what he pleases. It is not the will between the two individuals of the same right of man to do anything except the interests race-taking extreme cases. I contend that the of society will permit it. I have no right to do colored man should have the right of suffrage, anything that will demoralize the family of my because slavery lhas been abolished. It was the neighbor, or anything that will operate disastrousdegradation which slavery brought upon the race ly to the interests of society. You can see the which has hitherto prevented his enjoyment of uses that will be made of this doctrine of natural the right of suffrage. But that is blotted out of rights. It meets us at every turn. I wish to existence. It is wicked-it has no existence in dispose of it upon the threshold, which I think I common sense-the doctrine that we should con- did pretty effectually, so effectually that the tinue to exclude him. The wrongs of his race gentleman from Rensselaer [Mr. M. I. Townsend] have caused that bloody war which has covered felt it. the land with graves, and sent sorrow into every Mr. AXTELL-I do not propose to discuss this household, because we persisted in this wrong. subject metaphysically, anatomically or pathologiIn righting this wrong, we have been obliged cally; but I wish to say a few words in regard to to send our sons and fathers to the battle-field, a point that seems to have been lost sight of in this and the land has been filled with mourning. debate, and that is that it is purely a question as to Now, let us go on and finish this work in the whether the property qualification shall be retained light of justice. As to the social equality grow- in order to entitle the black man to vote. It is iug out of political equality, I am sorry to hear not a new question. We propose no new privilege any man of good sense bring that forward. If to be given to the black man, but we propose any man thinks his party is in danger, especially simply to enlarge a privilege which the by any such calamity, perhaps he had better look black man already has. The gentlemen of well to it. I think that the party with which I this Convention will remember that by the Conact is in no danger. I think we should look well stitution that was adopted in 1821, there was a to our social interests. Don't these gentlemen property qualification required of all electors. know that social equality is not a subject of legis. The negroes might vote having a certain property lation, and never can be. It is a mere matter qualification. That property qualification was of taste, governed by every man in his social stricken out by the Convention of 1846, so far relations, subject to the supervision of no man out- as it related to white men, and retained side of his own household. The addressing of so far as related to colored men. Now twenty such arguments to gentlemen of the character years have elapsed; great events have taken of those who compose this Convention, it seems to place in the history of this nation, and events me, is a pretty small business. At the south affecting this very question, and the question towhere the gentleman's party has had predomi- day is. whether we shall retain that restriction nance for a great many years, they are not so which was retained by the Convention of 1846. afraid of amalgamation. It is practiced there; and I for one, sir, feel that it would be an insult to the if we are to have amalgamation at all, let us have civilization of this age for us to retain it, and I it legal, and not illegal in its character. The race cannot understand any sentiment or feeling that ]as been whitened so gradually and so persist- demands its retention, that is not connected with ently and to such an extent that Henry Clay, that spirit of contamination and debauchery of the in a speech made at Indianapolis, came very public conscience that was upon this nation prior near telling the truth when he said that to the war, as the result of the violation of for two hundred years negro slavery had the very first postulate of the Declaration of existed, and two hundred years hence will Independence. It seems to me, sir, that find it still in existence; and if causes continued the whole question here is this-slavery to operate that were now operating, slavery would is dead. We propose to bury it decently. not be distinguished at all by the color of the There are thousands in the nation, and thousands people, for the color would all fade out. What in the State who are determined to keep the bewas the cause? It was amalgamation forced loved corpse above ground. That is about all upon the weaker race by the stronger, to which there is of it. And as to submitting this question the weak never consents, which they never desire to the people of the State — who are the peo 247 pie of the State whose opinions are to be respected? Are they not the people of intelligence and of virtue? The people who have moral instincts coinciding with the Declaration of Independence, and the spirit that has animated our nation during the last few years? I grant, sir, that if you were to submit this question as a distinct proposition to the people of this State it might possibly be defeated. And why? Because, sir, unfortunately, in connection with the principle of manhood suffrage which is imbedded in the public Rmind, and which will continue to be imbedded there, we cannot rule out certain criminal classes who will vote against extending the right of suffrage to the negro. That is all sir. The gamblers of the State will vote against it. All that class of persons who are notorious criminals, and who are always found at the polls, will vote against it, and I am satisfied that if the leading men of this Convention-the great leaders of the party that are here in the opposition, would but come up to this question in the spirit of generosity which has characterized the action of this Convention hitherto, the mass of them would vote for the adoption of the Constitution we shall frame, with a clause in it permitting the negro to vote on the same terms with the white man. I know many men who are to-day connected with that party and who have been connected with it in years past, who on both occasions, when the question was submitted as a separate and distinct proposition to the people, who voted for it, and who are ready to vote for it again, whether it shall be placed in the body of the Constitution or whether it shall not be placed in it-it will be placed there, however, and the people will adopt it, I believe. But, sir, as I have said, there is a class of persons who have still a prejudice, and who deny to colored men rights that they would have themselves-among this class are the men who murdered and burned negroes in the riots in New York in 1863. These are the men, who, whether trammeled or untramelled by party and party influences, would vote against the extension of the right of suffrage to the colored man. I am in favor, sir, as a matter of justice, as a matter of expediency, of permitting them to vote, because I believe they are a virtuous people as compared with thousands of the others who vote. Mr. E. A. BROWN-A few words, Mr Chairman, in relation to one or two questions which are now before the committee. The proposition of the gentleman from Kings [Mr. Murphy] to retain the property qualification as to colored men, it seems to me ought not to be adopted. Allusion was made by the honorable gentleman to the Constitlltious that were framed by the several States immediately after the Declaration of Independence. The gentleman says, and, I suppose, says truly, that in most of those Constitutions the property qualification was included. That was the case in this State. But, sir, that property qualification applied to white men as well as to colored men, and the citizens of this State lived for forty-three years under the Constitution of 1777. that allowed all men, 80 far as color was concerned, equally the right to vote. The qualification that applied to the colored man applied to the white man. It took fortythree years for the politicians of this State to discover the necessity of excluding from the right to vote, that portion of our citizens. Sir, why was that change made? Before answering that question, let me correct the honorable gentleman from Clinton [Mr. Axtell] en one point, historically. This property qualification was very much complicated in the article on that subject contained in the Constitution of 1821, and was entirely abolished by an amendment in 1826; and from 1826 to 1846, there was no property qualification applicable to the white man, though the qualification as to the colored man was retained. I ask why was this change made. Has any good reason been assigned by the gentleman [Mr. Murphy] who moves this amendment? Can any man give the reasons why a man whose color is different from ours should not have an equal right to vote with us? There must be a reason or the distinction should not be made. Sir, as to the capacity of the colored man. Is it said, and if said, is it demonstrated as true, that this class of citizens is not equally intelligent with thousands upon thousands who vote at every election? Is it not true sir, that as to their intelligence and their patriotism; they are as fit to walk up to the ballot-box as the fifteen thousand men who, it is said, must be naturalized within less than thirty days of the next election in order that they may exercise this inestimable privilege of citizenship-the elective franchise? Is it said, and if said, is it true, that that class of our people is not equally intelligent, equally moral, equally industrious, equally worthy of all the rights of citizenship with the fifteen thousand I have named, and the fifteen thousand more who are to be naturalized more than ten and less than thirty days prior to the election of 1868? The question answers itself. Is it said, and if said, is it true, that the class of colored persons who would be enfranchised by the proposed amendment of this committee, leaving out the word " white " as it was left out in 1777, and as it stood out for forty-three years, has not an average intelligence, honesty and patriotism equal to the average honesty, intelligence and patriotism of the whole of that portion of the population of this State that come up to the polls to vote in November? I say, sir, if it is so said, it is said recklessly, without due consideration, and without proof. When the nation was in peril who offered to go to the battle field? Among the traitors in this country do you find this class represented? Has the first black man yet been named who failed to pilot the poor fleeing refugees from the clutch of traitors I Did they fail to guide the armies of the Union in the path they sought to follow? Has the first black man or woman been named among the millions in this nation, during the four years of war, who has failed to be humane, failed to be patriotic or has proven to be a traitor? Sir, if they be degraded, if they have been degraded, out of respect, out of duty to the race to which they belong, I ask if this boon should not be given to them, if this right should not be restored? In other words, should not they be placed upon an equality of rights with every other class of men equally deserving? I am opposed to the proposition of 248 the gentleman from Kings [Mr. Murphy], to submit the question separately. Is it proposed to submit it separately, that negro suffrage may be adopted? If submitted with other propositions no more righteous, no more just, no more deserving the approbation of the people of the State, no better suited to the interests, the duties, the character, the reputation -of the people of the State, it would be adopted with them. But if submitted separately, bitter prejudice, if nothing else, may be excited among a sufficient number of persons, who will be induced either to withhold their votes entirely or vote against the proposition, and they defeat negro suffrage without injury to any other question. And the object of the proposition, Mr. Chairman, to submit this question separately to the people is that it may be defeated. Why not act like full-grown men on this subject? Why not stand up and say boldly " We wish to exclude these men from the elective franchise." We do not wish to dodge the question by submitting it separately to the people, and allow the old prejudice against slavery and against the colored race to be used to defeat it. Let us settle the question herelike men. This subject is as old as the government of the State. We understand it as we understand every other subject, and as well. Why not say, and say distinctly, here, that the proposition is unworthy to be submitted to the people, and we will withhold it; that the colored man is unworthy of a vote, and therefore we will withhold it? The proposition of the gentleman does not say that. He admits that if a negro or mulatto has by fair means or by foul, gained two hundred and fifty dollars of property, in real estate, he may vote. If he. has robbed hen-roosts, stolen chickens, defrauded his neighbor or in any other way accumulated so much money or property he may vote; then his color does not hurt him or disqualify him. This property qualification had its merits in its day no doubt, and so far as I know it may have merits now. If it has any merits, all the people should have the benefit of it. If. it be a burden, to be borne by any, all people should equally be subject to it as a burden. It comes back to the original question. It is a question of color simply-of an unfounded and unworthy prejudice. A few words upon another branch of the subject now before this Convention. The proposition of the Committee on the Right of Suffrage is to abolish that provision of the Constitution which requires a residence of four months in a county before a man may vote therein. That struck me as a change not called for by any particular reason, when I first heard it announced, but coupled with another proposition of the committee, I think it is a good one and should be adopted. That other proposition is to extend the time from ten days to thirty days, that a man shall be a citizen before be can exercise the right to vote. Now, sir, there was reason existing longer ago than 1846, why some course should be adopted to prevent fraudulent voting, and to prevent the bringing to the polls of illegal voters-or to state it in distinct English-to prevent illegal naturalization on the eve of an election. Ten days before an election, all the candidates are in the field. They and their friends are intensely interested in their success, aside from party issues and the success of general tickets in each locality; and in all these localities where this class of per. sons congregate most, I do not saythat there is an unhealthy excitement-I do not say that in all cases, there is a degree of attention given to the election that its merits do not deserve, but I do say that there are some persons, in those localities and in all localities, who feel a great interest in the success of a particular candidate and a particular party on the eve of an election, that that feeling and that interest grows in intensity up to the very day of election. The gentleman from New York [Mr. Daly], who speaks from experience on that subject, and speaks wisely, says in substance that there was complaint made, and properly made, when this naturalization was carried on up to the day of the election. He says that since then the practice has obtained of ceasing to naturalize ten days before the election. I suppose the reason for thatMr. VAN CAMPEN-I submit with due deference to the gentlman from Lewis [Mr. E. A. Brown] that he is not discussing the question pending before the committee. The CHAIRMAN -In the opinion of the Chair, the gentleman from Lewis is proceeding strictly in order, as the motion is on the substitute offered by the gentleman from Cayuga [Mr. C. C. Dwight] accepted by the gentleman from Ontario [Mr. Folger] to the clause reported by the Committee on the Right of Suffrage. Mr. E. A. BROWN-The proposition of the gentleman from Cayuga [Mr. C. C. Dwight] is to amend the recommendation of the committee by reducing the time from thirty days to ten days, as the period to elapse before a person shall be entitled to vote after becoming a naturalized citizen; and I was endeavoring to state, in as few words as I could, why some time should intervene between the date of naturalization and of voting. The purpose is simply not to exclude any man who may be legally and honestly naturalized, the day before election from voting, but it is to prevent abuses which have sprung up, that the ten days was inserted in the Constitution as it now exists. If that period is a sufficient remedy for the evil, it is all I ask. But, sir, in the county in which I live, some of the towns have more naturalized than they have native born voters; and two or three cases have been litigated where fraudulent naturalization papers have turned up some years after they were given; in some cases, certificates of naturalization came through the clerk's office, which papers were on their face perfectly legal, and yet there was no more authority for naturalizing those persons than there was for naturalizing the Czar of Russia. In other cases, certificates of the declaration of intention had been filed in Oneida county one year before the application was made for the final papers, and they were changed so as to show two years, or the month was changed, and thus people, by no fault of their own, but through the schemes of outsiders, were enabled to cast illegal votes. I say that this was without any fault of the persons who were naturalized. It was the fault of schemers, political men outside, who had got hold of these papers, changed them, and de 249 frauded, not only the men themselves, but defrauded the public. And this practice, sir, has prevailed, so far as I know, on the eve of elections, and has never been thought of or attempted thirty days 1 before election, in any one case. The object of interposing a period of time between naturalization and voting is simply and solely to prevent these ' frauds and to save the naturalized citizens them- I selves, as well as the public generally, from the effects of those frauds. If ten days is a sufficient ] time, I am satisfied. From all the experience I have had, and from the fact that some of the 1 judges of the Superior Court of New York, as is ( well known, had their names forged to papers t last fall, I think ten days is hardly a sufficient time; for, if I recollect right, the case that I speak I of, the forgery of the names of those judges, did not occur forty days, or sixty days before the election, but on the eve of the expiration of the time i during which naturalization papers might properly a be taken out. and the naturalized nerson secure a right to vote at the ensuing election. But, sir, I t do not wish longer to take up the time of the Convention, but as I am at present advised. I should prefer to retain thirty days as the period, I for the reason I have assigned, willing, however, i to let it remain ten days, if that shall be the sense t of the Convention. r Mr. MURPHY - In regard to the proposition I c had the honor to submit, there have been speeches 1 indulged in by members of the Convention, to c which I will refer very briefly, though perhaps not as justly as I could wish, at this hour. Mr. BARNARD —Will the gentleman please I to give way for a moment. I move that the committee do now rise, report progress, and ask leave t to sit again. c The question was put upon the motion of Mr. Barnard, and it was declared carried. Whereupon the Convention rose and the President resumed the chair in Convention. c Mr. ALVORD from the Committee on the t Whole, reported that the committee had had i under consideration the report of the Committee on the Right of Suffrage and the Qualifications to I Hold Office, had made some progress therein,,but not having gone through therewith, had instructed i] their chairman to report that fact to the Conven- r tion, and ask leave to sit again. The question was then put on granting leave, I and it was declared carried. o Mr. BELL -I move that this Convention take s a recess until seven and a half o'clock this evening. I Mr. SEYMOUR- I move that the Convention li do now adjourn. The question was put on the motion of Mr. t, Seymour and it was declared carried. So the Convention stood adjourned. r C 0 FRIDAY, July 12, 1867. il The Convention met at 11 o'clock A. M. Prayer was offered by Rev. W. S. SMART. I The Journal of yesterday was read by the SECRETARY and approved. k The PRESIDENT anncunced the appointment ti of Hiram T. French as door-keeper. ti Mr. HAND presented the memorial of sixty inhabitants of the county of Broome, asking for E 32 the submission of a separate clause. for the prohibition of the sale of alcoholic liquors as a beverage. Which was referred to the Committee on Adulterated Liquors. Mr. C. E. PARKER presented the petition of Lyman Bradley and eighty-five others, citizens of rioga county on the subject of legislative donations to charitable institutions of a sectarian character. Which was referred to the Committee on the Powers and Duties of the Legislature. Mr. T. W. DWIGHT presented a communication from Dr. Francis Lieber, covering suggestions )f Ex-Governor Boutwell, of Massachusetts, on;he pardoning power, Which was referred to the Committee on the Pardoning Power. Mr. T. W. DWIGHT also presented the petition )f Rev. B. G. Paddock, of Rome, N. Y., respectng the prohibition of the sale of alcoholic drinks is a beverage. Which was referred to the Committee on Adul-;erated Liquors. Mr. STRATTON presented the petition of J. B. Thomas, pastor, and 36 others, members of the Pierrepont street Baptist church, Brooklyn, prayng that the Legislature and municipal, county and own authorities be prohibited from donating any noneys or other property, to any church, school, college, hospital, asylum, or institution of any rind whatsoever, that shall or may be under the control, either directly or indirectly, of any sect or lenomination of religionists. Which was referred to the Committee on the Powers and Duties of the Legislature. Mr. STRATTON also presented a communicaion from J. Percy, of Williamsburgh, Kings county, in relation to official corruption. Which was referred to the Committee on Official Corruption. Mr. GROSS presented a petition from citizens if New York, remonstrating against the prohibiion by constitutional provisions of the sale of ntoxicating liquors. The SECRETARY proceeded to read the )etition. On motion of Mr. AXTELL the further readng was dispensed with, and the petition was eferred to the Committee on Adulterated Liquors. Mr. GREELEY presented the memorial of John. B. Corwin and one hundred and thirty-two )thers, citizens of New York, praying for the eparate submission of an article authorizing the Legislature to prohibit the traffic in intoxicating iquors. Which was referred to the Committee on Adulerated Liquors. Mr. GREELEY also presented the memoial of Rev. Goo. H. Corey and one hundred others, itizens of Coxsackie, praying for the prohibition f the donation of public moneys to sectarian astitutions. Which was referred to the Committee on the 'owers and Duties of the Legislature. Hiram T. French, who was appointed door. *eeper in place of James Armstrong, appeared in he Convention, and was administered the constiutional oath of office by the President. Mr. CORBETT presented a petition signed by lenry Ward Beecher, E. A. Studwell, and others, 250 citizens of Kings County, asking for suffrage for machinery, and their employment in that women. capacity, to be rewarded in the manner Which was referred to the Committee of the proposed, was not contemplated, as is evi. Whole. dent from the fact that the granting of station. Mr. HISCOCK presented a petition from Rev. ery is expressly limited by the act to members of Samuel G. May, and others, citizens of Syracuse, the Convention. When the Convention assembled, asking for the prohibition of donations to institu- it, in various ways, well understood, made ample tions of a sectarian character. provision for giving publicity to its proceedings, Which was referred to the Committee on the and in doing so incurred an expense, which in the Powers and Duties of the Legislature. opinion of a considerable minority was inexpediThe President presented a communication from ent, if not wholly unauthorized, yet the fact is ad. the Auditor of the Canal Department, in answer verted to here simply to show that there existed no to a resolution of the Convention, passed June necessity in fact for the employment of reporters. 26th. In the meantime, the press throughout the State Which was referred to the committee on Canals, had sent agents or reporters here for their own and ordered to be printed. accommodation, and in order to afford them ample Mr. FERRY, from the Committee on Contin- facilities for prosecuting their business, and also gent Expeuses, submitted the following report: to settle conflicting claims to the favor solicited, Your committee to whom was referred the reso- it became necessary to award them seats upon the lution of Mr. Tucker, asking that thirty dollars' floor of the House, and to determine who should worth of stationery be furnished to each of the be the occupants thereof-hence the rule for reporters, etc., respectfully report that having appointing and the consequent appointment of carefully considered the subject, they have arrived these fifteen reporters. These facts already at the conclusions following, to wit: That demonstrate that this Convention, for its before advising an appropriation of money for the own use or convenience, did not employ purpose asked, it is well to inquire why it should and is not legally or equitably indebted to be done, and what right, if any, this Convention these reporters for services rendered as such. has to make it, and whether it is intended as a If; therefore, we owe these honorable gentlemen donation, or as money paid in discharge of an nothing, the bestowment of this money would be obligation which this body has incurred or as- a gratuity, and it only remains to be considered sumed. These certainly must be pertinent whether this Convention can make a donation of inquiries, and intelligent answers thereto will de- this character. We will assume that no argument termiue what the action of this body should be in is required upon so simple a point, for it wil hardly the premises. All will agree that this Conven- be claimed by any one that we have the power tion should pay its honest debts, legally or the right to give away the public money. Nor or equitably incurred, and if there be is it desirable in any point of view that we any such obligation in this case, we should at should do so in this case. These gentlemen, the least be ready to acknowledge it and provide for contemplated recipients of the proposed favor, are its payment. The proper determination of this honorable men-too honorable to solicit, at our question leads into an inquiry into the relation hands, charity, and we respect them too highly to which these reporters sustain to this Convention, offer it. Still if any ambitious member ot this by whose permission they occupy their seats upon body shall desire to signalize himself by performthe floor of the House. Are they its employees, ing an act of great generosity, we respectfully or performing labor in its service? If your com- suggest that such individual will more successmittee are correctly informed, said reporters fully vindicate his claim to the coveted eminence have never been employed by, nor are they at by making the donation from his own pocket work for this Convention. On the contrary, they instead of the public treasury. For the aforesaid are the agents of the press. doing service for their reasons, your committee recommend that the resoprincipals, and their only title to the seats they lution be not adopted. occupy is the license which the courtesy of this E.E. FERRY, Chairman. Convention has extended to them. We understand, however, that this favor has been most Mr. COCHRAN from the minority of the same freely and willingly accorded because of the inti- committee, submitted the following report: mate relations existing between the press as intel- The undersigned, one of the Committee on Conligent organs of public opinion and the labors of tingent Expenses is unable to coincide with the this body, and also of the high character of these majority of that committee, in regard to the progentlemen-the agents of these organs-and their priety of allowing the reporters of the Convention, manifest influence in disseminating information named by the President, the same stationery among the people of the State, of the doings of this as is allowed to members. He has no doubt of Convention. the power of the Convention to incur that trifling Some have erroneously supposed that the rela- expense, and to supply its own designated reportion of employer and employee had been created ters with the usual and necessary conveniences from the fact that the President of the Conven- for the performance of their duties in connection tion, has, under the rules appointed these report- with this Convention. Neither does he doubt the ers. But the mistake will be apparent when the justice and propriety of such action. He, therereasons leading to such appointment are known fore, recommends the adoptionby the Convention and understood. The act of the Legislature un- of the resolution presented by Mr. Tucker, of New der which this body assembled, made noprovision York, and referred to the said committee, that the whatever for reporters as a part of its working reporters of the Convention be allowed the same 251 amount of stationery as the members thereof receive. Respectfully submitted, ROBERT COCHRAN. July 9th, 1867. Mr. TUCKER -If it is in order I move to disagree with the report of the committee, and to adopt the original resolution. Upon that question I call for the ayes and noes. A sufficient number seconding the call, the ayes and noes were ordered. Mr. MERRITT- I ask for information whether the motion is upon the adoption of the report, or upon the motion to disagree. The PRESIDENT - The question as stated by the Chair was on agreeing with the report of the committee. The SECRETARY commenced calling the roll. Mr. CONGER - This subject, as presented by this resolution, must necessarily placeThe PRESIDENT-The Chair would inform the gentleman that the Secretary has already commenced to call the roll; therefore, remarks are not now in order. Mr. COCHRAN- Those who vote aye vote in favor of the majority report, and against the resolution. The SECRETARY proceeded with the call of the roll, and on Mr. Corbett's name being calledMr. CORBETT -The committee instead of reporting on this question which was referred to them, have incorporated a stump speech into their report, besides having reflected on the action of the Convention in ordering the publication of the debates, which I think, is entirely uncalled for. With that explanation I desire to say that I vote against agreeing with the report of the committee. The SECRETARY proceeded with the call and on Mr. Ketcham's name being calledMr. KETCHAM-For the same reasons stated by the gentleman from Onondaga [Mr. Corbett], I vote no. The SECRETARY proceeded with the call, and the report was declared agreed to by the following vote: Ayes.-Messrs. A. F. Allen, C. L. Allen, N. M. Allen, Alvord, Armstrong, Andrews, Axtell, Barker, Barto, Beadle, Beals, Beckwith, Bell, Bergen, Bickford, Bowen, E. P. Brooks, E. A. Brown, W. C. Brown, Carpenter, Case, Chesebro, Cooke, Conger, Comstock, Curtis, C.C. Dwight, Eddy, Ely, Endress, Farnum, Ferry, Field, Flagler, Fowler, Fuller, Goodrich, Gould, Grant, Graves, Greeley, Hadley, Hammond, Hand, Harris, Houston, Hutchins, Kernan, Kinney, Krum, Landon, Lapham, Law, A. Lawrence, M. H. Lawrence, Lee, Ludington, Magee, Masten, Mattice, McDonald, Merritt, Merwin, Miller, A. J. Parker, Pond, Potter, President, Prindle, Prosser, Rathbun, Rogers, Rolfe, Root, Rumsey, L W. Russell, Seaver, Sheldon, Spencer, i. I. Townsend, S. Townsend, Van Campen, VanCott, Wakeman, Wickham, Williams-86. Noes —Messrs. Archer, Barnard, E. Brooks, Burrill, Cassidy, Champlain, Clinton, Cochran, Collahan, Corbett, Corning, Daly, Folger, Francis, Fullerton, Garvin, Gross, Hatch, Hardenburgh, Hiscock, Iitehman, Huntington, Ketcham, Larremore, A. R. Lawrence, Jr., Livingston, Loew, Lowrey, Merrill, Monell, Morris, Murphy, Nelson, Opdyke, Paige, C. E. Parker, Robertson, Roy, A. D. Russell, Seymour, Schell, Schumaker, Silvester, Sherman, Stratton, Strong, Tucker, Veeder, Verplanck, Weed, Young-51. Mr. DALY-I beg leave to say, Mr. President, that the Chief Justice of the United States being temporarily in this city, and as the rules that we have adopted make no provision for extending the courtesies of the Convention to the judges of the courts of the United States, I ask the unanimous consent of the Convention for a suspension of the rule, and offer the following resolution. Resolved, That the privileges of the floor be extended to the Hon. Salmon P. Chase, Chief Justice of the United States. The question was put upon the resolution of Mr. Daly, and it was declared adopted. Mr. HUTCHINS - As the Hon. John T. Hoffman, Mayor of the city of New York, is temporarily in this city, for the same reasons given by the gentleman from New York [Mr. Daly], I ask the unanimous consent of the Convention to offer the following resolution: Resolved, That the privileges of the floor be extended to Hon. John T. Hoffman, Mayor of the city of New York. The question was put on the resolution of Mr. Hutchins, and it was declared adopted. Mr. LOEW -I hold in my hand and propose to offer a resolution to inquire into the expediency of abolishing the office of the Superintendent of the Insurance Department and restoring and devolving the powers of that office on the Comptroller, or that the duties of the Superintendent of the Banking Department and the Insurance Department be united in one. I wish to say I have no special information in regard to this matter myself, but I understand from authority which any member of this body would approve, that the measure is necessary in order to secure the best interests of the people of this State. I propose that the Committee on Banking and Insurance shall inquire into the expediency of this, and if they see fit it will come before the Convention at a future time. The SECRETARY proceeded to read the resollution as follows: Resolved, That it be referred to the Committee on Currency, Banking and Insurance, to inquire as to the expediency of the abolition of the office of the Superintendent of the Insurance Department, and of restoring to and devolving upon the Comptroller the duties of such superintendent-or that the duties of the Superintendent of the Banking Department and Superintendent of the Insurance Department, be united in one department. Which was referred to the Committee on Currency, Banking and Insurance. Mr. SHERMAN offered the following resolution: Resolved, That the' Standing Committee on Printing be directed to inquire into the cause of the non-reception by the Convention of the num. ber of printed documents to which it is entitled by the rules, and to take such measures as may be necessary to correct the delinquency The question was put on the resolution of Mr. Sherman, and it was declared adopted. 252 Mr. GRAVES offered the following resolution: laid on the table upon my suggestion. I now WIHEREAS, The use of money has become an move that it be taken from the table, and that the instrument in the hands of the venal and ambi- resolution be passed upon. tious to procure places of trust and responsibility, Mr. MERRITT —I notice that the Chief Justice without a due regard to the qualifications and of the Supreme Court of the United States, Hon. fitness of the candidate for the position; and that Salmon P. Chase, is upon the floor, and I therefore its almost frequent use at our annual and other move that the Convention take a recess for ten elections, corrupting to the giver and receiver, minutes, in order that we may pay our respects to demand from this Convention some action by him. which the evil shall be arrested; therefore, The question was put on the motion of Mr. Resolved, That in the.opinion of the Convention, Merritt, and it was declared to be carried, and the the following provision should be made a part Convention took a recess for ten minutes. of the Constitution: After the recess, Any person who shall pay or cause to be paid The PRESIDENT announced the question to any money or other valuable thing directly or be on the motion of Mr. Pond, to take from the indirectly to any voter to obtain his vote for any table the resolution referred to. office for which he is a candidate, on conviction The question being put on the motion of Mr. shall forfeit the office to which he is elected and Pond, it was declared to be carried. be disqualified and deemed unworthy to hold any The SECRETARY proceeded to read the resooffice for ten years. lution as follows: And laws may be passed excluding from the Resolved, That the Committee on Judiciary be right of suffrage all persons who shall receive any discharged from the further consideration of so money or other valuable thing as a reward for much of the resolution of Mr. Pond, of Saratoga, voting for any candidate for office, and also for as relates to the subject of juries and their verpunishing, by fine or imprisonment, or both, the diet, and that the same be committed to the standvoter who accepts or receives such money or ing Committee on the Preamble and Bill of Rights. valuable thing. The question was then put on the adoption of Which was referred to the Committee of the the resolution, and it was declared adopted. Whole. Mr. MORRIS-I observe, sir, that the Hon. Mr. BECKWITH offered the following resolu- John T. Hoffman, Mayor of the city of New York, tion: is upon the floor, and I move that the Convention Resolved, That the resolution requesting the take a recess for ten minutes for the purpose of Auditor of the Canal Department to furnish copies paying our respects to him. of contracts now in force for repairs and improve- The question being put on the motion, it was ments of the canals, etc., be modified so as to re- declared carried, and the Convention took a recess quire, where there are a number of contracts for ten minutes. similar in their terms and provisions, one copy After the recess, only of such similar contracts, and then the re- Mr. E. BROOKS offered the following resoluspective names of such contractors, the respective tion. dates, times of expiration, the amount of each Resolved. That in the judgment of this Convencontract, and the particular section of the canals tion, the Legislature of this State should not pass embraced in each contract, and whether the prices laws local or special in their character, for any of agreed to be paid therefor by the existing con- the following objects, viz.: tracts, exceed former prices paid, and the amount "Regulating the jurisdiction and duties of jusor percentage of such excess, if any. tices of the peace and constables; for the punishWhich was adopted. ment of crimes and misdemeanors; regulating The PRESIDENT presented a communication the practice in courts of justice; providing for from the Comptroller in answer to a resolution of changing the venue in civil and criminal cases; the Convention adopted June 26th in respect to granting divorces; changing the names of persons. the accrued interest, belonging to the school fund. For laying out, opening and working on highWhich was referred to the Committee on the ways, and for the election or appointment of Finances of' the State and ordered to be printed. supervisors. Mr. CONGER offered the following resolution: Vacating roads, town plots, streets, alleys and Resolved, That the Secretary of this Con- public squares. vention be directed to furnish to the reporters Summoning and impaneling grand and petit who have been admitted to the courtesies of this juries, and providing for their compensation. floor, the stationery necessary for them in the Regulating county and township business. discharge of their functions as reporters, and Regulating the election of county and township that he report the amount and value of such officers and their compensation. stationery as severally distributed by him before For the assessment and collection of taxes for the close of the sittings of this Convention. State, county, township or road purposes. Which was referred to the Committee on Con- Providing for supporting common schools and tingent Expenses. for the preservation of school funds. Mr. POND- On page 109 of the Journal, there In relation to fees or salaries. is a report of the Committee on Judiciary, con- In relation to interest of money. eluding with a resolution, that a resolution pre- Providing for opening and conducting elections viously introduced by myself and sent to that of State, county or township officers, and desigcommittee, should be sent to the Committee on nating the places of voting. the Preamble and Bill of Rights-that report was Providing for the sale of real estate belonging 253 to minors or other persons laboring under legal have referred,that the amendment of itself contemdisabilities by executors, administrators, guardi- plated a property qualitication for the colored ans or trustees. race. That, sir, is not the case; but quite In all the cases enumerated in the preceding the contrary. The object of that amendment sections, and in all other cases where a general law was to submit to the people the question whether can be made applicable, all laws shall be general all restrictions should be removed from the colored and of uniform operation throughout the State." race in regard to suffrage, and whether they Mr. E. BROOKS-I beg leave to make a single might all vote, irrespective of any particular qualiremark in reference to that resolution- fication different from the other race. Our Mr. FOLGER-I call the gentleman to order- province here, sir, is to amend the Constitution. as I understand it the resolution lies over. The amendment proposed by the gentleman from Mr E. BROOKS-I ask leave of the Convention Cayuga [Mr. C. C. Dwight] it is true, would, of to make but a single remark; but if the gentleman itself, effect the same object as that which my objects Iwill take my seat. The resolution is a amendment has in view. But to my mind it is very important one, I do not propose action upon it liable to two very serious objections. It does not at the present time, but I wish to call the atten- distinctly bring before the electors the amendment tion of the Convention to the provisions of the res- proposed, viz., that of extending the right of olution. The Governor of the State has signed suffrage beyond the point to which it is now nearly one thousand bills passed by the Legisla- given to the black race. It does not put forward tureof 1867, only two hundred and thirty of which affirmatively and distinctly the proposition that were of a public nature, and many even of those the right of suffrage is, with their consent, to be are trivial in their character. I ask that the res- extended to this disqualified race. Another objecolution which I have submitted be laid upon the tion in my mind was that it did not provide for a table and be printed, and at the proper time I separate submission of the question to the people. I will call it up for consideration. sought to present that question to this Convention The resolution was laid on the table and ordered in connection with this article, and could not do to be printed. so unless I recited in the amendment the existing Mr. OPDYKE offered the following resolution: provision of the Constitution, to the effect that no Resolved, That it be referred to the appropriate negro could vote, unless he possessed a property standing committee to inquire into the expediency qualification of two hundred and fifty dollars. of inserting in the Constitution a provision in sub- It was, therefore, no proposition of mine, nor is it stance as follows: any proposition of mine that the property qualifi" That a whole life policy of insurance with cation should exist in regard to the negro race. equal annual premiums, during life, for a sum not I do not believe in a property qualification anyexceeding ten thousand dollars, payable at death where, for any race. If a citizen is entitled to to the wife and children of the insured, or any or vote by the other qualifications, I am opposed to either of them, may, if so originally declared in restricting his right to vote by a property qualifithe policy, become and shall be exempt from the cation, be he black or white. But, sir, I find this claims of the husband's creditors. provision in the existing Constitution, and my Which was referred to the Committee on the object is to present distinctly to the electors of Powers and Duties of the Legislature. this State the question whether the elective franThe Convention then resolved itself into the chise shall be extended beyond that point, so that Committee of the Whole, on the report of the all persons of color maybe entitled to vote. Now, Committee on the Right of Suffrage and the Qual- so far as the impression has been sought to be con ilocations to Hold Office; Mr. ALVORD, of veyed, whether intentionally or not, that the object Onondaga, in the chair. of this amendment is to impose a property qualificaMr. GREELEY- I ask the unanimous consent tion upon negroes, I hope it is now removed ofthe Convention to correct a word in the clause and the question set at rest. The great reported by the committee. The Convention is object and purpose of my amendment are about to pass upon the adoption or rejection of to have a separate submission of this question to this proposed amendment, and the correction the electoral body which I conceive to be proper, cannot be made if the amendment goes to the for various considerations. I consider it to be Convention. I ask toinsert after the word "vote," proper in the first place, because the only iU line twenty, the words " given or," so that it certain way of ascertaining the will of the people Will read "any money or other valuable thing in that regard is by presenting to them disto influence or reward a vote given, or to be given tinctly and by itself that question. If you incorat such election." What I ask is simply the cor- porate it in the Constitution itself and submit it in rection of an error that occurred by oversight, to connection with all the other propositions in that whliel my attention has been called by a distin- instrument to one vote, you do not get a fairiand guished gentlemen. honest vote upon the proposition. Men who are There being no objection, the correction was opposed to the Constitution for other reasons vote raade as suggested by Mr. Greeley. against this project. There may be a majority in Mr. MUURPHY-When the committee rose yes- favor of that proposition by itself, and yet not trday I was about to make some remarks in willing to concede other objectionable matters in eply to observations which had fallen from gen- the Constitution, who will vote against the tlene who had spoken on the amendment which whole instrument, and thus the extension Ihad the honor to propose. My particular pur- may be lost. The amendment as proposed, Pose was, sir, to correct an impression which by me, is the one favorable to the views of seemed to be conveyed by the remarks to which I those who maintain that public sentiment is i 254 favor of extending this right of suffrage to this race; while in my judgment, I repeat, the proposition of the gentleman from Cayuga [Mr. C. C. Dwight] including it in the Constitution, and not presenting it as a separate amendment, it may be defeated when the will of the electoral body may really be in favor of it. Let me not be misunderstood. I am opposed personally to negroes voting, but I am now arguing the point whether this question should be separately submitted. But more than this, sir, it is peculiarly a question which should be submitted to the electoral body, because it concerns the electoral body particularly. It is whether their number should be increased and enlarged, whether the principle of the elective franchise should be changed, and this privilege extended. I may say it is the people's question of privilege, and takes precedence of all other matters in the Constitution. They should determine the material questiod in the Constitution, in whom the power of the government shall be vested? Society has already intrusted them with it, and they are to say whether they will enlarge it or contract it. They should have the opportunity of voting fairly upon it in order that they may vindicate, if I may so speak, their own personality. I proposed it, sir, for another reason. It follows the safe line of precedent. It is the course which was adopted in 1846, and although then a large majority of the people of the State adopted the Constitution, yet upon a separate vote they rejected this proposition. If they are of that mind yet, let them have an opportunity of saying so. If they have changed their mind, let them have an opportunity of so declaring. A contrary course from that which I have proposed, that course which incorporates the proposition in the Constitution itself, shows a want of confidence in the people - a distrust in their intelligence to vote upon this question, and looks to me very much like a fraud upon the electors in regard to the question. If, as is contended, the people of the State are in favor of extending the franchise in this way, why not let them have an opportunity of fairly and squarely saying so? I have failed to hear a single objection to this-course that was satisfactory to my mind. I will not say, as the gentleman from Broome [Mr. Hand], yesterday said in regard to some arguments that were made, that there is nothing in them. They may be satisfactory to the parties who propose them, but they are not satisfactory to my mind. The honorable gentleman from Westchester [Mr' Greeley] in some remarks which he submitted yesterday on this question, or the day before, I do not recollect distinctly which, put his opposition to a separate submission upon the ground that it was confusing to the electors, that they could not discriminate between the different propositions that might be presented. Well now, sir, there is nothing in that, because we have, as I said before, the best evidence in the experience of 1846. The people, I tell the gentleman from Westchester [Mr. Greeley], are capable of determining more than one proposition at a time, and as a mass are quite as capable of voting on this matter and are as discriminating as the gentleman himself. There was another reason advanced by the honorable gentleman from Clinton [Mr. Axtell] in the remarks which he made, and a very singular one to my mind it was, if I may be permitted to say so. " It may be lost," he said, " by a separate proposition; it may be lost by the votes of gamblers and men of that ilk." and I believe'he had something to say about July rioters. I do not know what was the object of the gentleman in making these particular references-whether he wished to give the question a party direction, or make a party distinction or not; but it is quite evident, if the extension is to be voted down on a separate proposition, it must be done by at least a portion of the party to which the honorable gentleman belongs, since they hold the majority in the elections of this State. It may be possible that there are gamblers and rioters who belong to that party who may unite with others in voting it down, but I hardly think so, sir. That there are gamblers and other improper men who exercise the elective franchise is quite true, but I rather think they can be found everywhere, and in all parties, and in all societies. Not only, sir, in the remarks of the honorable gentleman from Clinton [Mr. Axtell], but in those of others who spoke yesterday, I think I see a disposition to make a party question of this. The honorable gentleman from Rensselaer [Mr. M. I. Townsend] spoke of the duty of the majority to take hold of this question, drawing the distinction between the members of this body politically, the majority and the minority. Sir, most honestly and sincerely do I deprecate any attempt to draw this question into the vortex of party politics. A political question it is, but it never has been and I trust never will be made a mere party question. These gentlemen in the same breath tell us, indeed, they taunt democrats upon this floor, and democrats not here, with having voted in 1846, and again in 1860, for the proposition to enfranchise the negro. And they tell us that those men, some of them are of the same opinion still and.yet they would make this a party question. On the other hand the views of men acting in the Republican party against extending the elective franchise to negroes are quite as distinct as those views of any Democrats. It is a question which rises above party. It is a question which concerns good government, and therefore, concerns us all, one which if there be any that comes under our consideration demanding impartial examination and decision should be met honestly and fairly. and without reference to the shackles of partisanship. Over the seat on which you sit, above yon canopy, are inscribed the words of one whom the majority of this Convention delighted to honor, and whose fame and good name has become a part of the history of this Union. Did he not see in this question the objection which I alluded to yesterday, and to which the honorable gentleman from Rensselaer [Mr. M. I. Townsend] took exceptions? Let me read what Abraham Lincoln said. This was in his famous debate with Mr. Douglas, in September, 1858. He says: " While I was at the hotel to-day, an elderly gentleman called upon me to know whether I really was in favor of producing a perfect equality between the negroes and white people. While I had not proposed to myself on this occasion to say much on that sub 255 ject, yet as the question was asked me, I thought I would occupy perhaps five minutes in saying something in regard to it. I will say then that I am not, nor ever have been, in favor of bringing about in any way the social and political equality of the white and black races - that I am not, nor ever have been, in favor of making voters or jurors of negroes, nor of qualifying them to hold office, nor to intermarry with white people, and I will say in addition to this that there is a physical difference between the white and black races which I believe will forever forbid the two races living together on terms of social and political equality. And inasmuch as they cannot so live, while they do remain together there must be the position of superior and inferior, and I, as much as any other man, am in favor of having the superior position assigned to the white race." Such opinions as these are entertained by large bodies of our people, by large bodies of the electors of this State without regard to party, and I cite it merely for the purpose of showing that they are entertained equally by all classes of political men. Mr CURTIS-I should like to ask the gentleman from Kings [Mr. Murphy], if he is not aware that the sentiments which he has just read of the late President Lincoln were expressed by him in 1858, and that before his death he had changed his opinion upon that subject? Mr. MURPHY -I am perfectly aware that in the course of events, since this rebellion was upon us, and the condition of affairs has changed in the South, it has become a political necessity with the dominant party that they should enfranchise the black race in order to retain political power, and quite likely the President of the United States, as the political chief of the party after. ward changed the view stated. Now, sir, the honorable gentleman from Broome [Mr. Hand] yesterday spoke (I was going to say very dogmatically, but perhaps that is not the proper word)he said very positively, and with a great deal of self-complacency, that no man of any importance had maintained that there was diflerence between the white and black races physically. He found in the black race every thing that was in the white race. There was no relation of superiority and inferiority between them. He was quite indignant that the idea should be entertained by anybody, and my friend from Rensselaer [Mr. M. I. Townsend] spoke very much to the same effect, he who makes Thomas Jefferson, I believe, if I may judge from what he has said, second only to the Saviour of our race. On Mr. Jefferson he depends; to his he allies his ~pinions on this subject. Now the gentleman is quite wrong; and I am about to quote from Mr. Jefferson what he said on that subject, what I suppose may be considered his latest as well as his earlier views on the differences of the two races. Mr. Jefferson wrote a book which had certainly no partisan obiect. He had no political purpose to subserve by it, no personal or private interest to advance. t was a book written for the information of Iuropeans and of his countrymen. It is called iB "Notes on Virginia." I quote from the edition W"ich is said to be the last edition prepared by the author, "and containing notes and plates, never before published," and which was printed in 1853. Mr. Jefferson says: " It will probably be asked, why not retain and incorporate the blacks into the State, and thus save the expense of supplying, by importation of white settlers, the vacancies they will leave? Deep-rooted prejudices entertained by the whites; ten thousand recollections by the blacks of the injuries they have sustained; new provocations; the real distinctions which nature has made; and many other circumstances, will divide us into parties, and produce convulsions, which will probably never end but in the extermination of one or the other race." He goes on to discuss the differences physically, but that does not belong immediately to this question and then proceeds: " Comparing them by their faculties of memory reason and imagination, it appears to me that in memory they are equal to the whites; in reason much inferior, as I think one could scarcely be found capable of tracing and comprehending the investigations of Euclid; and that in imagination they are dull, tasteless and anomalous. It would be unfair to follow them to Africa for this investigation. We will consider them here on the same stage with the whites, and where the facts are not apocryphal on which a judgment is to be formed. It will be right to make great allowances for tie difference of condition, of education, of conversation, of the sphere in which they move." * * " Some have been liberally educated, and all have lived in countries where the arts and sciences are cultivated to a considerable degree, and have had before their eyes, samples of the best works from abroad." * * " They astonish you with strokes of the most sublime oratory; such as prove their reason and sentiment strong, their imagination glowing and elevated. But never yet could I find that a black had uttered a thought above the level of plain narration; never seen an elementary trait, of painting or sculpture." * * "The improvement of the blacks in body and mind, in the first instance of their mixture with the whites, has been observed by every one, and proves that their infirmity is not the effect merely of their condition in life." So much for the patriarch of the Democracy, whom my friend from Rensselaer [Mr. M. L Townsend] follows. Mr. Jefferson, the founder of Republicanism, according to my friend, sees between the races a distinction which many assert is a ground why the elective franchise should not be extended, and a difference not merely physical, but an inferiority mentally, which will not allow them to advance, as he states; beyond the power of mere narration or imitation. And, sir, we have had laid on our desks a pamphlet which has been put forward by a distinguished body of the republican party, which, however, I believe, is not in sym'pathy with my friend from Westchester [Mr. Greeleyl, called the Union League of New York [Laughter], prepared by a very distinguished philosopher, Professor Lieber, intended, no doubt, to enlighten and guide us in our discussions here. I looked curiously into that pamphlet, to see what the learned professor has to say upon the subject of 256 extending the elective franchise to negroes. I found nothing there except the idea which has already been suggested by several gentlemen in debate, and with which I fully accord, that it was unjust to restrict negroes from voting merely by a property qualification - taking the ground that a property qualification, if insisted upon, was wrong, or in other words, showing the inconsistency to which I alluded yesterday of imposing a property qualification upon that race, under which any of them with property were entitled to vote, and then upon no ground of reason or right as regards their mental condition or capacity, insisting that those not so qualified were not entitled to vote. He merely makes what lawyers call a special plea. But what his real views upon the main question are, I find in his book entitled, " Political Ethics." I quote from the latest edition of the work, which I obtain in the library here. Let us see what he says about the physiological distinction between the two races. "Yet though the distinction between man and brute has thus been distinctly drawn, comparative anatomy and physiology are establishing daily more clearly the fact, that all those beings comhended under the vast term of human species are not only morally or individually distinguished from each other, but in a very marked way, physiologically, and as to their capacities by whole races, forming a gradual scale of superiority. The most peculiar skulls of the so-called Pre-Inca race, found in South America, are so entirely different from ours, that they alone show an essential difference of that race from ours. The Caffres, the Boushmannes (Bushmen), the Hottentots, and the poor Papous, for instance, differ so materially in their anatomy and physiologic organization, from the races which comparative anatomy as well as the history of civilization teach us by conclusive facts, to consider as superior, that we should abandon all truth, were we to deny the difference. There is probably no reflective man. who was not painfully startled when he became first acquainted with these nevertheless imperative truths. We love to treat in our theories and meditations, all men as absolutely equal, but truth is truth, however it may militate with beloved, nay, generous theories: and God is the God of truth." Here, sir, is a writer of distinction, who is indorsed politically, who maintains very distinctly the inferiority of the negro race in capacity, the ground upon which many who oppose negro suffrage base their opposition. I have referred, sir, to these authorities not for the purpose of indorsing them before this Convention, for that is not the question before us, but for the purpose of showing that this is not a partisan question and should not be decided upon partisan grounds; that there are fixed moral convictions in the minds of many people against the extension of the elective franchise in that direction. Mr. Chairman, I have already spoken more than I had intended to, and yet I may be permitted to make a few further observations before I close. It must be borne in mind that there is a great difference between emancipating the slave, freeing him from the unjust restraint by which he was held-giving him those natural rights to which he was entitled by God. and conferring upon him, the high privi. lege of participating in the government of the country. There is a difference between abolish. ing slavery and enfranchising the slave. Giving him his liberty undoubtedly will have a tendency to improve his condition, but it does not confer upon him capacity. He remains in that respect a member of his race still. He does not, by that act, become qualified mentally with the powers necessary to exercise this province of government. The men who have contended against this slavery of the body, those who have fought and have successfully fought for his freedom, will not, must not, and cannot confound that with his right to vote. It is true, sir, history tells us that when the Helots of Sparta were emancipated, they were admitted to the rights of citizenship; but the Helots of Sparta were white men, having a capacity by nature, equal to their former masters. They were not a distinct and different race, and we can draw no argument by analogy, from that historical circumstance. But the gentleman from Fulton [Mr. Smith], based the right of these men to vote upon the ground that they were our equals. He argues that these people are not entitled to this right by nature, that they are entitled to this privilege because God has made them equal with us. How does mere naked equality, in the sense in which it is used in the Declaration of Independence, t6 which he referred, confer any right or any duty upon us to enfranchise them? Are not females our equals? Are not all the other disfranchised classes our equals in the sense of that instrument? How does he escape from the dilemma in which he places himself when he denies that there is a natural right, by saying that they are entitled to it because they are our equals? The gentleman from Broome [Mr. Hand] does not exactly like that definition or that doctrine. He does not put it upon the ground of natural right, which he most satisfactorily demonstrated did not exist, nor will he accept the proposition of the gentleman from Fulton [Mr. Smith]. It is not, he says, on the ground of their equality, but it is because he [Mr. Hand] has a right to vote. Now, the gentleman [Mr. Hand] has a right to sit in this Convention, but. how has he a right to sit in it? By the determination of the electoral body. But no other man is entitled to that seat. How is it that by the gentleman's having a right to vote the negro gets a right to vote, any more than a women gets a right to vote? He does not change the position of things. He uses new words. He goes back to the doctrine which he repudiated himself when he puts it upon that ground, and makes it to be a natural right. He does not advance, it appears to me, one step in the argument. The reason that many persons are opposed to extending the elective franchise to the blacks is that it tends to social equality. The gentleman [Mr. Hand] hoots at the idea. When you make a political equality you produce, necessarily, a social equality, where there is anything like an equality in number, and every where in the proportion that the race bears to another in politi cal equality orolitical power. If the extension of the elective franchise to blacks does not bring into this body or into our own legislative bodies and 257 executive chair black men, it will do so in other States where the races are more equally divided or where the blacks predominate-and with such power, all history proves, and which is especially marked in the case of the Republics of South America, social equality follow. From this co-mixture of races will follow the degradation of our manhood, that condition which is spoken of with so much feeling by gentlemen. This proposed extension of the right is opposed by others on the ground of inferiority of the race, and of their incapacity to comprehend the principles and axioms of the government, or to rise to a proper discrimination in the exercise of the elective franchise. I know it was said yesterday that there were hundreds and thousands who exercised the elective franchise who ought not. Allusion was made to those ignorant persons ot the white race, who are allowed to vote. That comes in as a matter of necessity, under the general principle which we have adopted. Whatever may be the condition of that class, ignorant as they may be in regard to matters of the world, uneducated as they may be in schools and colleges, they still have the power, as far as my experience has gone, to make observation and distinguish between those who are in favor of popular liberty and those who are not But your black man, it is said, has not the capacity. He advances to a certain stage and there stops. He is not capable of doing anything more than imitating. Now, Mr. Chairman, I refer to these points merely to show the propriety of referring this question to the electoral body, that the people may, in their original capacity. have the opportunity distinctly to vote upon this question, whether they will open this right and privilege to a class to which it is sought to be extended. I stated yesterday that if such be the sovereign will of the people of this State, I will acquiesce in that judgment most cheerfully. But let us have an intelligent decision upon the question. If such be the result, certainly, as an American citizen, I shall submit, although I may not myself agree with them, and will feel bound by their decision, for it will be the law. Mr. CORBETT - Yesterday this question was discussed in a sort of skirmishing manner. We talked of paupers, lunatics, and idiots. The question was surrounded with a great deal of extraneous matter. The substitute offered by the gentleman from Cayuga [Mr. C. C. Dwight], however, has somewhat cleared the atmosphere, and we are now permitted to discuss the plain proposition of manhood suffrage. The gentleman who has just taken his seat [Mr. Murphy] says that this is not a party question, that it is a question above party. Sir, it is not above my party - and if it is, I am in the wrong company. The striking Out of the word "white," marks distinctly the dividing line between the two political organizations in the State of New York to-day, and perhaps, in the United States; between the men who derive their ideas and their rule of action from the past, and those who see in the future 80mething to hope for; between the men who think that all wisdom died with the generation which precede d us, and the men who believe there 33 is yet wisdom with the generation of to-day. It marks the distinction between the classes of society who are regressive and those which are progressive; between the men who are clinging to the prejudices of the past, and those who would use the results of advancing civilization; between those who still get their nourishment from the dying traditions of slavery, and those who have associated their sympathies with the growing aspirations of liberty. So far as this distinction holds good, this is indeed a party question. The gentleman from Kings [Mr. Murphy] has cited to us eminent authorities to prove the negro's incompetency to exercise the elective franchise, and from one author especially, who claims that the negro intellect could never be so far developed as to enable to solve a problem in Euclid. Why, sir, if the ability to solve a problem in Euclid were to be a test of one's capacity to exercise the elective franchise judiciously, the gentleman's party would be exceedingly select. [Laughter]. Besides, the negro m America is a vast improvement on the negro in Africa. Owing to the kindness, and, I might add, the social laxity of Southern morals, he is favored with a generous infusion of Caucasian blood, and it is the representative of that element that we have in the Northern States. The gentleman has quoted from a speech delivered by Abraham Lincoln in 1858, to prove that that great and good man did not believe in the negro's capacity to vote. Why, sir, a vast gulf divides the years 1858 and 1867. Since that time the thought of the nation has made gigantic strides, and we witness on every side of us the results of a new and a better faith. Civilization has made, since that period, grand conquests, and we stand in the shadow of another and a better revelation; and before the hand of an assassin had robbed the nation of her wisest ruler he had accepted the new interpretation. Yesterday the gentleman from Kings [Mr. Murphy] expressed his regret that the State of New York should take such a position as the majority here seem disposed to sanction, for then her example would be held up to other States to influence their action. Sir, it is for that reason that I am in earnest. We desire to show to the people of the United States that the experience of the past six years has not been lost upon the men of the Empire State. We desire to show to those who are struggling for liberty in Europe, and to the victims of oppression in every land, that the heart of the great State of New York, first in power, first in glory, first in history, beats in unison with their pulsations. There is another reason for my position. I cherish a creed, and have sprung from a nationality that have felt oppression and have been the victims of prejudice. I remember the time when a great party in this State had for its watchword, "None but Americans on guard." We felt what persecution was then; and in that bitter school learning its force, my sympathies ever shall be with, and my voice shall ever plead for those who suffer from injustice and wrong. When the Native American organization dissolved, the fragments naturally aggregated with the pro-slavery. ism of the country, for there the proscriptive spirit found congenial society. From abuse of the '258 foreigner to abuse of the negro the transition was easy and rapid. We are also told that our doctrines will lead to social equality; but of that I am not afraid. Social standing is determined by merit. and all the legislation in the world will fail to make a man a gentleman unless he possesses the qualities of a gentleman within himself, and then no amount of legislation can prevent his recognition. What is the political power which the gentleman so much dreads? the grim specter which' stands before his heated imagination? Is it to come from the enfranchisement of eleven thousand negroes in the State of New York-eleven thousand amongst almost a million of white voters? I regret that the gentleman has seen fit to resort to such profitless considerations. I had hoped, sir, that in this nineteenth century there were other and better reasons for the exclusion of our colored citizens from the exercise of the elective franchise. And yet it was to be expected. Hatred for the negro for the last thirty years has been the political capital of the party of which the gentleman from Kings [Mr. Murphy] is an honored member, and it is not to be wondered at that he still desires to be consistent with the record of the past. The gentleman charges that hope of retaining political ascendancy in the nation is the motive which actuates us in seeking the enfranchisement of the negro in the south. Sir. we ask the ballot for the negro in the south, first because he is entitled to it as a freeman, and secondly, as a proper reward for his fidelity to the government in its hour of peril — for his devotion to the Republic in the day of sorest need, for springing to the help of the nation when traitors of a paler hue conspired against its very existence, and when perhaps gentlemen who now talk of his inferiority were not so faithful. He then knew enough to fight, was intelligent enough to be loyal, and after such a record I cannot question his capacity to vote. The gentleman says that suffrage does not necessarily follow citizenship. Well, sir, citizenship is incomplete without it. Suffrage is the complement of citizenship. The separation might be likened to the arch without the keystone, the temple without the capstone. Their combination is necessary to complete the unity. I am opposed to the separate submission of this question. There is no reason why the question of suffrage should be submitted separately more than any other proposed change in the organic law of the State. Besides, in my opinion, it would be an exhibition of cowardice and a compromise with the timidity of those who profess to be the friends of freedom. Some men are ever looking back to the past, and every change they regard an innovation. I have all reverence for the past, but, at the same time, a degree of respect for the present and confidence in the future. Since 1846 we have made rapid advances toward the bright star of our destiny. I had hoped that the younger and more vigorous element of the democratic party had observed the results and counseled with the ideas that triumphed in the recent glorious struggle for freedom and nationality. But it seems we must march without them. I turn to those, then, of whom better things can be said, and of them I ask unity of purpose and firmness of faith, and that they falter not at the threshold of victory. As for me, the work of this Convention shall stand or fall with manhood suffrage. Mr. LANDON-I am in favor of so much of the amendment of the gentleman from Kings [Mr. Murphy] as proposes a separate submission of the question of negro suffrage to the people, and I deem it, sir, proper that this statement should be made thus early in this debate, since it can only happen that the further extension of the right of suffrage to the negro can be granted by the votes of the electors of this State, and since all parties are agreed that it is best that the question should be submitted to the people in some way or other, it seems to me that the only question that is pertinent here is, how shall it be submitted? The gentleman who has just taken his seat [Mr. Cor. bett] says that the plan for separate submissionis cowardice. I affirm, sir, that the plan of separate submission is bold, direct, and manly, and that the plan of joint submission is a plan that savors timidity and indirection. I, for one, am as much in favor of extending the ballot to the negro as any gentleman upon this floor. I am not afraid of the negro, I am not afraid of his power, of his superiority, or of his influence. I am willing to accord to him the same rights that I claim myself. No law can ennoble me by degrading him. When [ have to turn to the statute-book to prove myself his superior, or to find in it a restraint upon my desire for his companionship the statute will deserve contempt, and myself no less. No, sir, let him advance as best he may in the pursuit of prosperity and happiness, protected in his liberty by the shield and the weapon which the ballot will afford him; but I am, sir, in favor of meeting this question plainly, squarely and directly. I do not wish to dodge it in any particular, but it seems to me that this plan of separate submission is just to all and prejudicial no none. Those who shall favor the Constitution which we shall submit and also negro suffrage can vote both ballots. Those opposed to both can vote both ballots. And that other, and perhaps numerous class, who shall favor the one and oppose the other, can also vote both ballots. None will be in anywise restricted in the liberty of choice; but by embracing the two in the one instrument, it will happen that the liberty of choice of a large portion of our citizens will be restricted. If I like my landlord's beef but do not like his onions, I will thank him not to mix them. All of us are well enough advised with regard to the public sentiment of this State, and in regard to this question of the further extenston of negro suffrage to the people, to know that there is a wide difference of opinion in regard to it. We need not stop to inquire how that difference originated, or why it exists. Perhaps it ought not to exist. But we know the fact that it does exist among the people whom we represent, that they desire to express their opinions in regard to it; and I say that we, sir as their representatives owe it to them, and owe it to our own manliness and directness, to give them the opportunity. And I know no good reason why the desire of the people to express themselves upon this question plainly and directly should be in any wise 259 restricted or suppressed. Every citizen in this State, is entitled to the same right as every other oitizen, to vote upon this question as he pleases. Again, sir, by the separate submission of this question, we shall confine the party question to one issue, and shall lift the main instrument out of the domain of party politics. By this course the people of this State will be permitted to examine it, without prejudice and without restraint-" a consummation devoutly to be wished." Passing through such an examination, if it shall then happen that it meets with the approval of the people of the State, we may well hope that we have labored wisely in our efforts to revise and amend this organic law. But, whatever may be their verdict, I can conceive of no occupation more dignified or ennobling than that of the hundreds of thousands of electors of this State engaged in the examination of its proposed organic law, free from bigotry and restraint, free from party trammels and influence, with the sole object to approve of it, if it be found right, and to reject it if it be found wrong. Under such circumstances the right to vote is worth more than a kingly crown, and the citizens may well be sovereign. But I greatly fear that by this joint submission, the influence of parties, rather than the dictates of sound judgment, will be found to control the result of the vote of the people. I lay no stress, sir, upon the precedents which have been cited in the report of the minority of the committee, or by the gentleman from Kings [Mr. Murphy]. If I based my action upon these precedents, I should accuse myself of seeking a pretext to do a pre-determined thing, rather than for a reason to guide me toward the right. Precedents, sir, are the forms in which things are clothed, not the things themselves. However useful they may be to shape our action after we have determined it, they do not hit the main question; they do not aid us in determining whether we ought or not to do it. I doubt, sir, whether these precedents convince anybody. I am conscious that in the course I am now indicating for myself, I am acting at variance with the wishes of many trusted and more experienced menbers of this Convention, with whom it would be a pleasure for me to co-operate in this as in other matters of public policy. But, sir, if this question is to be made IU any wise a party measure, then I have to say that I shall allow no considerations of party to influence my vote upon these questions of detail which are submitted to us. We cannot afford, we pOght not, as a matter of duty, looking forward into that future in which it may be that our labors will long survive all our parties, and all of us, to limit our action by any mere consideration of party. No, sir, our object should rather be to frame as wise a Constitution as our best judgment cap devise, and then to lift the parties up to a generous rival-?r how best to perpetuate and promote the principles of which, after all, the best Constitution can only afford a meagre outline. Again, sir, I hope that we shall submit a Constitutiofi worthy the adoption of the people of this State, a Constitution better adapted than the present one to its ever expanding, and multiplying and competing industry and interests, a Constitution better adapted to its financial, judicial, and educational requirements, a Constitution, sir, which shall better promote, than the present one, the prosperity and happiness of the people of our State, and be more in consonance with the civilization of the age in which we live. I confess sir, that I am unwilling to hazard the whole upon this single question ef extending the ballot to the negro; and I am the more unwilling because, in my judgment, the hazard is altogether unnecessary and of questionable right. I know sir, that it is supposed that those who are principally instrumental in asking the separate submission of this question, desire to frame upon it an issue which shall go down to the next election. This, sir, I can readily believe, but I do not know of any. means by which we can prevent it, unless it shall be abandoned altogether, and that I for one will not consent to it. It seems to me, sir, and I believe it to be true, that if we will not allow them to make their party issue upon this separate question of suffrage, they will make it upon the joint submission of the whole instrument, and this will place them upon a higher vantage ground. The gentlemen of the majority with whom I am accustomed to act, will then have to champion not only the question of negro suffrage, but the educational, the judicial, the financial, and all other questions that our proposed Constitution may embrace, and if it shall happen, as I think it is likely to happen, that the interests of the whole party will be found to hinge upon successful fault-findings, the party may not be found to have virtue enough within itself to refrain from fault-finding. It is the easiest thing in the world to find fault; partisan interest can readily coin charges of folly, extravagance and corruption - "a breath may make them as a breath has made;" and though easily made, they may prove hard to be defended. So it may happen that the political contest which you hope to avert by smothering this fertile generator of strife-this question of negro suffrage, between the financial and judicial blankets, will thereby become intensifled and aggravated instead of quieted and subdued. A little leaven sometimes leaveneth the whole lump. Let us meet this question plainly, separately and directly, and not in confusion, or mixed in any indirect way with other questions. Let us go before the whole people upon the single issue, with the same confidence in our power as in our virtue. In this age of ever recurring elections, no success which is founded upon the advantage derived from the present possession of power can be anything but short lived. If we go into the contest upon the separate question and succeed we shall gain an honorable victory, and if we fail we shall not be humiliated by the consciousness that we have deserved defeat by our timidity and indirection. Mr. NELSON-Although the Convention has spent considerable time on this question, and although it may be impossible for me to add anything that would change a single vote that is to determine the important issues we are to settle, still it may not be a loss of time for me to review the questions as they are now presented to this Convention, and make those suggestions 260 which occur to my mind. We have here two people of the State than is here given. What plans, or two systems, so to speak. On the one reasons may be suggested? We look over these hand we have a plan or system reported by the classes excluded from voting, and what do we find? gentleman from Westchester [Mr. Greeley], as the We find young men between the ages of eighteen chairman of the Committee on the Right of Suf- and twenty-one, excluded; and we find the women frage, and on that report arises the question about of our State, also, excluded from the exercise of which we disagree. In that report the chairman the elective franchise. Why have these two proposes to confer suffrage upon the colored people classes been excluded? In support of extending of the State. Perhaps I should not thus state it, suffrage to the negro, the chairman of the com. but rather say that in the plan he proposes he mittee suggests that whites and blacks are required desires to embody in the instrument itself a provi- to render like obedience to our laws, and are sion which, if the instrument is adopted, will, by punished in like measure for their violation; such adoption, confer suffrage upon the colored men. but I would suggest to the honorable gentleman Now, without stating how any of us, or desiring to [Mr. Greeley] that young men between the ages of know how any of us feel, it has occurred to me eighteen and twenty-one are also bound to render that the fairest and most just treatment of the obedience to the law, and are alike punished for its people at large, is to let them pass upon violation. So, also, Mr. Chairman, are the women that question independently and separately, as of our State bound to render obedience to the law, they may. We look back upon the action of the and are punished for its violation. It is also sugConvention of 1846, that framed the Constitution gested that whites and blacks were indiscriminunder which we are now living, and find they ately drafted. That is true. But, sir, were not made a form of government that was satisfactory our young men between the ages of eighteen and to a very large majority of the people of the twenty-one also drafted? You go to the rolls of State. That Constitution was adopted by a that army which fought so bravely for the pur. very large majority. The same Convention that pose of handing down to posterity free institutions, framed that instrument submitted to a separate and on those rolls you will find long lines of honvote of the people, the question of the exten- orable names of young men between the ages of sion of suffrage to the colored people of the eighteen and twenty-one. Then go to your naState, and the result on that question was tional cemeteries, and read the inscriptions upon some 140,000 majority against the proposition. your monuments, and there you will find the I submit it to the sense of this Convention if it names of thousands and thousands of heroes whose would have been right or just to the people of the ages were between eighteen and twenty-one. One State of New York-in view of the history of the other fact, Mr. Chairman, in following out the idea. past, in view of the action of the people upon the In reading the history of the war from which we Constitution submitted in 1846, when the instru- have just emerged, you will find following in ment itself was adopted by a large majority, and march of that army for which so many millions the question of conferring suffrage defeated by of hearts beat with a lively interest, woman with a large majority-to have embodied a clause in the kindness, tenderness and sympathy to bestow Constitution to extend suffrage to negroes, to be upon the sick and wounded. And yet, women passed upon with all the other provisions in the and young men between eighteen and twenty-one instrument? It has been suggested here by the are excluded from voting. Mr. Chairman, as chairman of the Committee on Suffrage [Mr. Gree- citizens, young men, women and children owe ley],that this Convention should have the boldness obedience to lawto embody this principle in the instrument as an en- Mr. AXTELL-Will the gentleman [Mr. Neltirety. Sir, it is ever bold to do right; it is ever bold son] give way for a moment. I should like to to deal fairly with men and with communities, and ask the gentleman by what principle should the when you present to the people of the State a clear people be governed in conferring the privilege of abstract proposition, they, in their intelligence will elective franchise? Should they be governed by decide it one way or the other. But the chairman, whim or prejudice, or by some great general prinof the committee tells us, in undertaking to give ciple. a reason why the property qualification should be Mr. NELSON-I propose to reach that question abolished, that slavery, the vital source and only by and by. If I do not answer it sufficiently to the possible ground of what he terms an invidious satisfaction of my friend, before I have concluded distinction, has been abolished. Sir, it is not for my remarks, I will give way for him to renew his me to define the distinction. In my judgment, interrogatory if he should desire it. I have menlooking back to the action of the people of the State tioned these matters, Mr. Chairman, not because in of New York, when they said, by the large vote my judgment, the right of suffrage should be conthey gave that they would not confer the right to ferred upon all of these classes. I hold it to be vote upon colored men, it was in the exercise of immaterial what may be the individual opinion of their right of sovereignty that they so decided, members of this Convention upon this subject. and none of us should question it. But, is it Those opinions are immaterial, because whatever true that slavery was the cause of this decision? we do must be submitted to the action of our Slavery had long before been abolished in the sovereigns, and our sovereigns are now the State of New York. It was not slavery, nor the people of the State of New York. We used recollection of slavery, that made the people give to profess, in all public documents, to derive that decision; and it becomes us, succeeding those all legal authority and power by virtue of men who formed the instrument under which we "our sovereign lord the king," and so the old have lived so long and so prosperously, that we records of the State show on one page; and hould give better reason for the action of the yet, turn over to the next page, and it 261 recites that the sovereign power is in the people of the State of New York. In the records of the State, but a single side of a leaf separates records with those two recitals. An individual opinion is only important so far as it carries with it power to influence electors at the polls. When my eloquent friend from Onondaga [Mr. Corbett] (if this question comes to be submitted to the people) addresses the electors of his community, he will give the reasons which he thinks should lead them to adopt it, and others will be heard in opposition to it. But to return. I was answering the question suggested by the report. It is not slavery, in my judgment, or the reasons that are named in the report of the committee on this section which caused the people in 1846 not to extend suffrage to the classes I have named. We must look for a different reason as actuating the people who cast that vote. The reason may have been, that in their judgment young men should not be allowed to vote because they had not reached that time of life to have the experience necessary to intelligently exercise the elective franchise. We all know young men between the ages of eighteen and twenty-one, numbers of them, who would cast as intelligent a vote as perhaps any of us could cast, and yet they are excluded. And in excluding women from the right to vote, it may be that the people of the State of New York-looking at her power and influence - looking at her presiding in a higher, nobler and holier sphere than party politics-the charmed circle of home said, " there let her be," as the good women of this State, in my humble judgment desire to remain. "; to rule with a power by which she has ever ruled, and keeping clear of the party strifes, squabbles and contests of political life." Undoubtedly, women would exercise the elective franchise with intelligence; but they are excluded. Then, sir, in the light of the past, what is the reason for the various exclusions? Is it not this, that in defining the right of franchise, it is necessary to have a rule of limitation somewhere fixed. If that is so, in a written constitution, that fixed and settled line will work harshly or arbitrarily in some cases. It undoubtedly excludes some very competent and intelligent young men below the age now recognized for voting and it undoubtedly excludes some ladies who are so anxious for the elective franchise, and who astonish their sisters by telling them how terribly oppressed they are in the free State of New York. But, sir, though tlhat is an arbitrary line, it must go somewhere. If remember aright what is spoken of as the Consti tution of England, of which the Englishman i so0 proud, is a Constitution that no living man has ever read. It is a Constitution not existing in writing, it is a Constitution existing in theory and made to bend to the circumstances of particuhr cases. But in a republic all Constitutions are written, and whenever you write a rule, in some ases, it will be arbitrary. It is now suggested, Mr. Chairman, that although in 1856, there ias a lar vote against extending the ele. tie fanehs to colored men, that that qwstio should again go to the people. How lould it go? Should it not go to their intelli gence to be carried by their vote unmncumbered and unembarrassed by any other question? If they are opposed to it, as the people in 1846 were opposed to it, should they not, in the same manner, have the right to pass upon it and defeat it? Including it in the body of the instrument, you carry with it, perhaps, a financial policy to be adopted here that some men are opposed to, and you say to them who are in favor of negro suffrage, "you must take with it a financial policy to which you are opposed." You may have a judiciary system to which many men may be opposed-a system that may fasten upon the people of the State men for life, who will have to stay there with all their own and wives' relatives in office, and with no way existing to reach the abuse, and you say to a man in favor of negro sufrage, you must take that system though you are opposed to it, for the purpose of obtaining negro suffrage. I suggest to you, Mr. Chairman, that fairness, candor, honor and courage require a separate submission to the people, for them to determine this question separately and alone from the other questions embodied in the instrument that we shall frame. I do not know but what the rule applies in Committee of the Whole that has been spoken of, but there are some suggestions in this report that I desire to call attention to. It is proposed by the chairman of the Committee on the Right of Suffrage to strike out all requirements as to residence in the county. I would ask if there has been any complaint made with reference to the present requirement in that respect? Has a single request made to alter it been sent to this Convention? All that is suggested by the chairman of the committee is, that that should be changed, for the reason that certain classes of mechanics, which he has named, leave the city during the summer, and thereby lose their right to vote. The answer to that is this: residence depends upon intent. If a man leaves a place with the intention of returning under the Constitution as it now stands, he is entitled to the elective franchise without doubt or quibble. The majority of this committee also propose to require a residence of thirty days, though a man only moves from one side of the street to the other, if he thereby moves to a different election district. Is there any reason for that? One reason suggested, is, that that length of time is necessary to look into the right of persons to vote. Fix your districts so that they shall be so small that you will be able to learn the qualifications of men to vote; because the worst of all provisions in an instrument, and which will be the most offensive, will be any provision which deprives a citizen well known in his neighborhood from enjoying the right of casting his ballot, by some machinery of law. It was suggested by the chairman of the committee [Mr. Greeley], that this thirty-day requirement was necessary to do away with the anomaly of allowing persons in case of a removal, to vote a part of a ticket at an election when they would not be allowed to vote the remainder of the ticket. For instance, under our present Constitution, a man may vote the county ticket, and not be able to vote for Member of Assembly 262 But why should a man who has lived his whole lifetime in any particular county, as thousands have in the county where I reside, if he should move to the next farm or next town, lose his right to vote as county elector or elector of the State, as he would be if the proposition were adopted? Can any reason be suggested? But the greatest and best answer is, that the experience of the past in the State shows that no complaint is made to the present provision of the Constitution. There is one thing further. The committee, by their chairman, propose to strike out a provision that prohibits or prevents those attending colleges or schools from casting a vote at an election. Now, I can appreciate, living where I do, the effect of that provision. Have you heard, Mr. Chairman, any complaint by reason of it? Have those representing the educational interests come here to ask you to change it? The city where I live has an institution of learning, in which, sometimes, there are eighteen hundred, and sometimes as high as two thousand students. They come from all over the State, and from other States. Is there any right, justice or reason in the students of that college, or any institution of learning, stepping in and controlling our city elections,? Should they be allowed to say how much money we shall raise to build a bridge, or to do this thing or that? Have they any interest in it? Not one bit. They have not asked for it. Adopt the provision, and the result will be, in places like Poughkeepsie, Albany, and others I could mention, that you would have persons who were really non-residents casting votes at elections. In conclusion, Mr. Chairman, I would suggest one thing, that perhaps the wisest course to take is to let well enough alone. Wherever you find difficulty, there step in and endeavor to amend it; but where there is no complaint let it alone. There is corruption, and there has been for years corruption of voters at the polls, and if the wisdom of this Convention can devise a plan to stop it, the people of this State will be grateful to it for having done it. The amendment proposed by one of the gentlemen, to my mind will reach that. Then is it not best to adopt the Constitution as it is with an amendment to prevent the corruption of votes, and submit, as a separate question to the opinion of the people of the State, the subject of extending suffrage to the negro for them to determine. Mr. GOULD- I do not rise for the purpose of making a speech upon the general subject. I only wish to offer a few remarks in reply to those submitted this morning by the gentleman from Kings [Mr. Murphy], while they are fresh in my memory. In the first place, the gentleman from Kings alleged that those who are opposed to a separate submission of the question of negro suffrage to the people are opposed to it from a spirit of cowardice, because they fear the people, and have no confidence in their intelligence. I wish to deny that conclusion altogether. He stated that he had never heard a single argument from those who desired to prevent a separate submission. Sir, I will give one on this occasion, and but one. The argument is, that it is an insult to the people to give a separate submission of the subject Sir, the question whether a negro should vote or not was settled years ago. For almost fifty years the people of this State have decided, and that decision has been acqui. esced in, that the negro was qualified to vote, and the only question is whether that ancient relic of feudalism, the property qualification, shall be annexed to that right. The whole issue is as to that one point and there is none other whatever. On that issue it is an absurdity to submit the question to the people. There are but two great parties in this State-one the Republican party and the other the Democratic party. Where will you ever find among the authentic utterances of the Republican party that they were in favor of the odious property qualification? Have they not rejected the idea in every form in which they could give it expression? Sir, I ask what have been the staple declarations of the Democratic party of this State for years? Have they not themselves declaimed against this odious property qualification? Well, sir, when the parties are one in this matter, there is nobody but what rejects a property qualification. The gentleman himself declared that it was odious to him; that he did not like it. Why, sir, insult the people by sending to them so obvious a proposition? Mr. WEED-May I ask the gentleman from Columbia [Mr. Gould] a question. Suppose negro suffrage with all other questions are submitted in one instrument, and in that instrument is something I cannot Vote for conscientiously, though I favor negro suffrage, how can I cast my vote in favor of negro suffrage, and, as the gentleman says, in unison with the universal sentiment of this State. Mr. GOULD —I take it that the gentleman from Clinton [Mr. Weed] will cast his vote against the property qualification. He is a democrat, and as a democrat he is bound to vote against it. Mr. WEED-The gentleman has entirely avoided the question. I certainly, as a democrat, too, shall vote for negro suffrage, if I can get a separate submission of that question, or even if put in the body of the Constitution, if the other amendments submitted meet my approval. I am and have been during my whole life in favor of negro suffrage in this State, and have so cast my vote at all times. I desire an answer to my question. Mr. GOULD —Sir, I come to another point which I wish to speak of, and that is the matter of precedents, which the gentleman from Kings [Mr. Murphy] read to us. The people of the Southern States, who have studied the utterances of Mr. Jefferson more carefully and persistently than the people in any other section of the country, are in the habit of alleging that it is of no use to quote Mr. Jeffersonl on any subject whatever, for whatever you quote from him on one side is met with an antagonistic utterance by himself on the other side. And, sir, the quotation which was made by the gentleman from Kings to-day is but another illustration of that settled opinion of the southern people in regard to Mr. Jefferson. He read a statement from Jefferson's Notes on Virginia in which he said that the negro had no reasoning power whatever. Now, sir, if there is any one of undoubted negr.o blood who has manifested distinct rea soning power, if he has exhibited grei intellectual acumen, that sir, settles th question forever, and shows that a want o intellect does notlie in the race. Now, sir, fc twenty years Benjamin Banneker, a negro with nose as flat as any negro was ever seen witl with lips as thick as any negro that ever walked th streets of Albany, calculated in Chester countJ Pennsylvania, an almanac. He was one o those who was employed by the publishers i making the Poor Richard almanac. There wa not his superior, except Dr. Rittenhouse, as mathematician, in the United States at that tim( Now, what I would ask is, whether the gentlema from Kings himself [Mr. Murphy] can compute a almanac? Can he lay on your tables to-morrow a page of an almanac calculated for the year 1967 And yet that thick-lipped, flat-nosed negro di that thing for twenty years. Sir, does that nc require intellect? I would like to ask how man, gentlemen in this room are competent to do whs Benjamin Banneker did, and did most accurately How many are as sufficiently conversant in th mechanical laws that are involved in the scienc of astronomy to do it? If the negro has a suff cient amount of intellect to do that, I think h may be intrusted with the right to vote on th question as to who shall be path-master or wh, shall be the constable of his village. We ar told by the extracts which the gentleman fron Kings [Mr. Murphy] read, that no negro had eve been known to approximate to anything lik assthetic power- that no negro had ever bee: able to distinguish himself in the arts. Well, sil in the year 1847, I myself, with rly own eyes, sa; a negro in the State Prison at Sing Sing, who wa earning for his contractor twenty dollars a day b; the exercise of one of the fine arts. He wa accustomed to paint window shades, which readil sold for fifty dollars a pair. They were admire; by every one who saw them. There Was gracefulness in the outline, a delicacy ii the blending of colors, which attracted th highest admiration of every one, and whicl was attested by the price at which the window shades were sold. If you have one man who ha exhibited this kind of intellect, it is sufficient t overthrow the negative testimony which the gen tlenan from Kings [Mr. Murphy] quoted thi morning. Now with regard to the character of th race itself. It is alleged that because the negro i Of a different race and different anatomical con struction from the Caucasian race, therefore he i unfit to be trusted with suffrage. But, sii I allege beyond all fear of successful contradic tion, that there is no such extraordinary differenc in the anatomical or physiological condition of th negro, as has been alleged here this morning. I Is true sir that certain well marked and wel developed instances may be found where the shil bone of the negro is different from the shin bon, of the white man. But, sir, does the negr4 reason with his shin bone, or does he vote witl his shin bone? Is that any element what eer to determine a question of this character We are told, it is true, that their brains are dif erent-that their skulls are flatter. Sir, yoi have only to go to the Geological rooms in Statb treet i this city, and you will find a skull of on, 263 it of the ancient Caucasian race-the root from le which every Caucasian race has sprung-which is f flatter than the skull of any negro whatever. )r Go, sir, to those island mounds in the Swiss a lakes which are now attracting so much i, attention from physiologists and you will le find in those mounds characterized as the Y, mounds of stonehenge, skulls flatter and f smaller than the most advanced monkeys of this n day. The truth is, that as you cultivate the mind s of the individual, you enlarge the brain-case. As a the race rises or progresses in intelligence, just so ). does the covering of the skull rise, and the argun ment that because the rise is not distinguished in n one race, does not prove by any means that there w may not be this progress. Again, sir, I assert,? beyond all fear of contradiction, of the lines by d which the African and Caucasian races blend into )t each other so regularly and gradually that no y physiologist in the world is able to point out the It exact difference between them. You may take the? projecting jaw of a certain class of the negro race; e you may take the retreating foreheads; you may e take the low skull; you may take the crooked shini- bone, but in a contiguous district, you may find a e negro just as much a negro, as he is, where there e is a progressive improvement in these charactero istics. And as you pass onward through the extent e of Africa, you will find the lines are so graded into a each other before you get into the limits of r the Caucasian race, that no man can point e out the difference. Last evening I came along n the banks of the Mohawk on the railroad, r, and gradually as the sun sank down behind the v western hills, and the light was progressively s diminishing, I sat there reading my paper, and y finally looked around at the landscape, and saw s the moon rising up; but I could not tell the period y when it ceased to be light, or when it became d dark. The gradation was so very slight that it a was utterly impossible for me to' tell, and just so it n is with regard tothe race. This argument based e upon their shin bones and skulls is 'not h worth a straw when it is examined practir-cally and carefully. If you go to Mount Caus casus, and it may be examplified by a series o of portraits, you find most admirable physical l- specimens of humanity, through which, if you s draw a line from the exterior angle of one eye to e the exterior angle of the other, the line will s strike the interior angle of each eye. Mathei- matically parallel to that line is the line adjoining s the two corners of the lips. The line of the nose, is exactly perpendicular to these lines, and every - element of symmetry you find in that Caucasian e race is the utmost perfection. Just precisely e as you recede from the foot of Mount Caut casus, just precisely do you recede in the race.1 from that perfect symmetry' of form. We may n take an individual example in the extreme e and reason upon that, but it will always be found o to be an exceedingly unsafe guide. I want to h tell a story, and then I shall have done. My elo- quent friend from Onondaga [Mr. Corbett] said that? no amount of legislation could make a man a gentle- man unless he had the elements of the character i of a gentleman within him. And so, in the same a way, no amonnt of legislation can keep down a e gentleman who has the. elements of that 264 character within him. In 1818 I saw at my Legislature, Boards of Supervisors, and other own father's table, a negro as black as municipal corporations, be prohibited from appro. the ace of spades. He was entertained there as priating money to schools, colleges, churches, an honored guest He was the Ambassador from hospitals, etc., of a purely sectarian character. the Emperor of Hayti to the Court of Great Which was referred to the Committee on the Britain. I never saw a man of more elegant man- Powers and Duties of the Legislature. ners than there was manifested by that same Mr. SHERMAN presented a communication gentleman. There was a grace and elegance in from George Curtis, of Utica, in relation to defects his deportment that were wonderful, and there in the present assessment laws. was a range of information displayed in his oon- Which was referred to the Committee on Finan. versation such as is rarely heard at any table. It ces of the State. may be, sir, that at a dinner table, my friend from Mr. GROSS presented four memorials signed by Kings [Mr. Murphy], might surpass him, but if he several hundred citizens of the city of New York, could surpass him in all that belongs to the charac- asking for a provision in the Constitution regulat. of a gentleman at a dinner table, I believe he is ing the traffic in fermented liquors and wines, and the only man in the Convention who could do so. the passage of general and uniform laws for the After that gentleman went on his mission, my maintenance of public order, decency and moral. father received a letter from him, and in that letter ity throughout the State, as the sole objects lying he stated that he had called upon. the Hon. Richard within the province and jurisdiction of the LegisRush, at that time our minister at the court of St. lature of a free and enlightened commonwealth James. He said that Mr. Rush treated him with capable of self-government. the most distinguished consideration, that he had Which were referred to the Committee on Adul. spoken to him in the kindest manner, and that as terated Liquors. he was about to leave him, Mr. Rush said to Tile PRESIDENT presented several memorials him, "Sir, I would be very happy to invite signed by citizens of the State of New York, you to my dinner-table to-day, but I have a num- asking for the submission of a separate clause ber of my distinguished countrymen who will dine prohibiting the sale of intoxicating liquors as a with me on the occasion, and you, who know so beverage. well the prejudices of race, will perhaps excuse Which were referred to the Committee on Adultme from giving you an invitation." " Certainly," erated Liquors. said Mr. Sanders, "I will, for I have already been Mr. SEAVER from the Committee on Printing, honored with an invitation to dine with the Prince submitted the following report: Regent, with a number of distinguished ambas- Your standing Committee on Printing would sadors, and therefore I should be unable to accept respectfully report that they have made inquiry the invitation." So much, sir, for this. into the cause of the non-reception by the ConMr. T. W. DWIGHT- I move that the con- vention of the number of printed documents to mittee do now rise, report progress, and ask leave which it is entitled by the Rules, and find that the to sit again, same have been printed, and after supplying the reThe question was then put on the motion of quisite number thereof for the files of this ConvenMr. Dwight and it was declared carried. tion, and for the Governor, and several heads of the Whereupon the committee rose, and the PRES- State Executive Departments, and after retaining IDENT resumed the Chair in Convention. the necessary number for binding under the rules, Mr. ALVORD, from the Committee of the and for the exchanges ordered by this Convention, Whole, reported that the committee had had there have remained for the use of the Convention under consideration the report of the Committee two hundred and fifty-six copies of the usual on the Right of Suffrage and the qualifications to number of each document, report, and of the hold office, had made some progress therein, but Journal, which have been retained by the printer, not having gone through therewith, had requested awaiting the order of this Convention as to their their chairman to report that fact to the Conven- disposal. tion, and asked leave to sit again. These documents, reports and Journals will this The question was then put on granting leave day be delivered to the Sergeant-at-Arms. and it was declared carried. J. J. SEAVER, Chairman. Mr. BELL- I move that the Convention do Which report was laid on the table now take a recess until i o'clock. Mr. SCHOONMAKER offered the following Mr. SILVESTER-I move that the Convention resolution; and asked unanimous consent for its do now adjourn, immediate consideration. The question was put on the motion of Mr. Resolved, That the Canal Appraisers be requested Silvester, and it was declared carried. to report to this Convention a list of the claims So the Conventionestood adjourned, against the State still undecided, and pending _ before them for adjudication, specifying the general nature of the claim, and the amount as deSATURDAY, JUl 13, 1867. manded by the claimant, and particularly desig The Convention met at 11 o'clock A. M. nating such as are pending by virtue of a specia Prayer was offered by Rev; W. S. SMART, statute and giving a reference to the statute. The Journal of yesterday was read by the SEC- There being no objection, the question was put RETARY and approved, on the resolution of Mr. Schoonmaker, and it was Mr. BECKWITH presented the petition of declared adopted. Willis Mould, N.. Boynton, and eighty-six others, Mr. GOULD- On the 28th of June last, I pre. citizens of eeille and vicinity, asking that the seated a paper to this Convention, on the unanimity 265 of jurors, from Prof. Lieber, and I then moved that but in old times it happened that a verdict was it be printed. The motion to print does not taken from eleven jurors, if they agreed, and appear upon the Journal, and when it was refer- " the refractory juror " was committed to prison i red to the Committee on Printing they supposed (Guide to English Juries, 1682. I take the quota. it was sent to them by mistake. It is now in the tion from Forsyth, History of Trial by Jury, hands of the Committee on the Preamble and Bill 1852.) of Rights. There are many references sir, in that Under Henry II it was established that twelve paper too out of the way, and rather uncommon jurors should agree in order to determine a quessources of information, and it seems to me it tion, but the " afforcement" of the jury meant is very desirable that it should be spread upon that as long as twelve jurors did not agree, our printed Journal. I therefore move that that others were added to the panel until twelve out paper be printed. of this number, no matter how large, should The question was put on the motion of Mr. agree one way or the other. This even changed Gould, and it was declared carried. occasionally. Under Edward III it was "decidThe communication is in words the following: ed" that the verdict of less than twelve was a eW oR. nullity. At present a verdict from less than twelve NEW YORK, 26th JUNE, 1867. is sometimes taken by consent of both parties. DEAR SIR: Observing in the papers that you At first the jurors were the judges themselves, have proposed in the Convention to abolish the but in the course of time, the jury, as judges of unanimity of jurors as a requisite for a verdict in the fact, separated from the bench as judge of the civil cases, I beg leave to address to you a few law, in the gradual developement of an accusaremarks on a subject which has occupied my tional trial as contradistinguished to the inquisimind for many years, and which I consider of tional trial. The. English trial by jury is one of vital importance to our whole administration of jus- the great acquisitions in the developement of our tice. Long ago I gave (in my CIVIL LIBERTY and race, but everything belonging to it as it exists at SELF GOVERNMENT) some of the reasons which in- present, is not perfect; nor does the trial by jury duced me to disagree with those jurists and states- form the only exception of the rule that all instimen who consider unanimity a necessary and even tutions needs must change or be modified in the a sacred element of our honored jury trial. Farther course of time, if they are intended to last and observation and study have not only confirmed me outlive centuries. in my opinion, but have greatly strengthened my The French rule, and I believe the Italian also, is, conviction that the unanimity principle ought to in penal as well as civil cases, that if seven jurors be given up, if the jury trial is to remain in har- are against five, the judge or judges retire, and mony with the altered circumstances which result if the bench decides with the five, against the from the progress and general change of things. seven, the verdict is on the side of the five. If The present Constitution of our State permits eight jurors agree against four it is a verdict, in litigants to waive the jury. in civil cases, if they capital as well as in criminal cases. There is no freely agree to do so. This would indicate that civil jury in France. This seems to me artificial, the adoption of verdicts by a majority of the jurors, and not in harmony with our conception of the in civil cases, would not meet with insuperable judge, who stands between the parties, especially difficulty; but it seems to me even more important, so when the State, the crown or the people is one and more consonant with some reasoning to aban- of the two parties; nor in harmony with the don the unanimity principle in penal cases. important idea (although we Americans have given At the beginning of my "reflections," a copy it up in many cases) that the judges of the fact of which has been laid before each member of the and those of the law must be distinctly separated. Convention, I stated the different causes of On the other hand, what is unanimity worth, the failure of justice, in the present time. I when it is enforced; or when the jury is "out" ougit to have added the non-agreement of jurors. any length of time; which proves that the formal It would be a useful piece of information, and an unanimity, the outward agreement is a merely important addition to the statistics of the times, accommodative unanimity, if I may make a word. if tle Convention would ascertain, through our Such a verdict is not an intrinsically truthful one; able State statistician, the percentage of failures the unanimity is a real "afforcement" or artificial. of trials resulting from the non-agreement of Again, the unaninlity principle puts it in the power jurors, in civil, in criminal, and especially in capi- of any refractory juror, possibly sympathizing tal cases. This failure of agreement has begun more with crime than with society and right, to to show itself in England likewise, since the defeat the ends of justice by "holding out." coarse means of forcing the jury to agree, by hun- Every one remembers cases of the plainest, and of, ger, cold and darkness has been given up. well-proved atrocity going unpunished, because In Scotland no unanimity of the jury is of one or two jurors resisting the others, either required in penal trials; nor in France, Italy, from positively wicked motives, or some mawkish ermany, nor in any country whatever, except reasons, which ought to have prevented them from in England and the United States; and in the going into the jury box altogether. nglish law, it has come to be gradually estab- I ask them, why not adopt this rule: Each jury lsed in the course of legal changes, and by shall consist of twelve jurors-tle agreementof two. o hmeaus according to a principle, clearly estab- thirds of whom shall be sufficient for a verdict, in pie from the beginning. The unanimity princi- all cases, both civil and penal, except in capital cases, e has led to strange results. Not only were when three-fourths must agree to make a verdict fogrerly jurors forced by physical means to valid. But the foreman, in rendering the verdict, agree, in a moral and intellectual Joint of view, shall state how many jurors haveagreed. 34 266 I have never heard or seen in print any objection to tho passage above alluded to, in which I have suggested the abandoning of unanimity, than this, that people, the criminal included, would not be satisfied with a verdict, if they knew that some jurors did not agree. As to the criminal, let us leave him alone. I can assure all persons who have investigated this subject less than I have, that there are very few convicts statisfied with their verdict. The worst ones will acknowledge that they have committed crimes indeed, but never the one for which they are sentenced, or will insist upon the falsehood of a great deal of the testimony on which they are convicted. The objection to the non-unanimity is not founded upon any psychologic ground. How much stronger is not the fact that all of us have to abide by the decision of the majority in the most delicate cases, when supreme courts decide constitutional questions, and we do not only know that there has been no unanimity in the court, but we actually recieve the opinions of the minority, and their whole arguments, which always seem the better ones to many, sometimes to a large majority of the people, Ought we to abolish, then, the publication of the fact that a majority of the judges only, and not the totality of them, agreed with the decision? By no means. Daniel Webster once said in my presence that the study of the "Protests" in the house of Lords (having been published in a separate volume) was to him the most instructive reading on constitutional law and history. May we not say something similar concerning many opinions of the minority of our supreme bench? In legislation, in politics in general, except, indeed, in diplomacy, the unanimity principle savors of barbarism, or indicates, at least, a want of development. The United States of the Netherlands would pass no law of importance, except by the unanimous consent of the States General. A single voice in the Ancient Polish Diet could veto a measure. Does not, perhaps, something of this sort apply to our jury unanimity. Whether it be so or not, I, for one, am convinced that we ought to adopt the other rule in order to give to our verdicts the character of perfect truthfulness, and to prevent the frequent failures of finding a verdict at all. I am, with great regard, dear sir, Your obedient servant, FRANCIS LIEBER. Mr. SHERMAN offered the following resolution: Resolved, That when the Convention adjourn to-day, it adjourn to meet on Monday next at 7 o'clock P. m. The question was put on the resolution of Mr. Sherman, and it was declared adopted. Mr. FULLER offered the following resolution: Resolved, That it be referred to the committee on Corporations other than Municipal, Banking and Insurance, to inquire into the propriety of inserting a provision in the Constitution, requiring the adoption by the railroads of this State, of a pro rata tariff for carrying freights thereon, subject to regulation by the Legislature or Canal Board. Which was referred to the Committee on Corporations other than Municipal. Mr. BELL offered the following resolution: Resolved, That pending the discussion of the report of the Committee on Suffrage, etc., in the Committee of the Whole, the Convention will hold evening sessions, commencing at I7 o'clock. Mr.* ALVORD - I trust that the resolution of the gentleman from Jefferson [Mr. Bell] will not prevail. The resolution giving rise to debate, was laid on the table. The Convention then resolved itself into Committee of the Whole, in the report of the Committee on the Right of Suffrage and the Qualifications to hold Office, Mr. ALVORD, of Onondaga, in the chair. The CHAIRMAN announced the question to be upon the substitute offered by Mr. Murphy, for the substitute offered by Mr. C. C. Dwight, for the amendment of Mr. Folger, which had, by Mr. Folger, been accepted. Mr. T.W. DWIGHT-I did not intend to address the committee at this stage of the discussion, and would not were it not been that during the course of the debate yesterday, some remarks were made in regard to the opinions of my friend and colleague Dr. Lieber. Having, however, determined to say something in regard to those remarks, I have concluded that it would be a proper time for me to take up the whole subject under discussion and to give my views upon the present pending amendment, as well as upon the other amendments which have been offered to the original proposition of the committee on the right of suffrage. Now, sir, in order that we may come to a clear understanding of this vexed question of the right of suffrage, it seems to me it would be well to establish, if possible, certain general principles, and in the establishment of those principles to deduce, if we can, the conclusions which ought to be applied to the particular cases that we have before us. And in order to reach those general conclusions, it will be necessary, it seems to me, to go to some of those points which gentlemen have already handled during the course of this discussion, and to speak of the origin of government and society, and of the right which society has, if it has such a right, to impose limitations on the right of suffiage. Now, sir, I am one of those who believe that man is of necessity a social being, that ie cannot live and develop himself-live in any proper way-outside of society, or, in other words, that society is established by the will of God. I do not feel in this way at all the pressure of some of those instances which have been cited, in which men have met together and framed a social compact, such as our pilgrim fathers, or the instance which has been cited of the few men going out into the interior of the country and associating together; because in all those cases, those individuals were in society. The pilgrim fathers were still members of the great English society which they had left, and it was one of their earliest provisions to claim the rights of English freemen. And so, sir, if men go out into this western region of which we are told, are they not there under the aegis of the great society of the United States, and if they are attacked by Indians 267 or other persons who are outlaws to those laws of ent discussion. Who are the persons who from the United States, do they not at once claim pro- incapacity ought to be excluded from the exercise of tection? They are members of society still, sir, the right of suffrage? As far as I can ascertain, they and therefore I do not feel the pressure of those may be classified into five classes. That is, in other cases at all. And sir, I hold that men out- words, men ought to have five requisites or qualifiside of society, though they may have rights, if you cations to enable them to participate in the elective please to call them so, have no remedy, and franchise. What are they? First, intelligencewhat is a right without a remedy? What would sufficient intelligence to comprehend the structure be all our absolute rights as we call them, outside of of the government and properly to vote. Second, society? Take the right of personal security. independence. Third, integrity. Fourth, interest. How does a man urotect himself outside of society? Fifth, incorporation into the mass of society. Sir, What would be the right of reputation, that most I will elucidate those particular cases, and I think priceless right, outside of society? How could a that I can show that those are proper pre-requiman defend himself when attacked? So, sir, I be- sites. First, in respect to intelligence, we lieve that for the necessary development of have a class here that we exclude for that man, society is essential, and therefore it is an es- reason. Infants, persons not able to comsential institution, and consequently when once prehend the government, idiots, if you established, it has a right to perpetuate its ex- please, lunatics and persons of such a low degree istence; to perpetuate and develop itself; to of intelligence that they cannot properly exercise establish for the purpose of development, large the right of franchise. Second, dependence. libraries, educational institutions, and other Whom can we exclude on that ground? Persons means for carrying men forward in the progress who are so dependent on others that they cannot of civilization. This same right which society exercise this right properly. Such persons, if you has to perpetuate itself, to my mind limits please, as paupers, although I will say nothand controls the right which we have before ing in regard to them at this stage of us in discussion at this time. Here we are, living the discussion. but merely suppose they belong to under a representative government, one of the that class. Third, integrity. Whom do we exclude last and best devices of human thought to govern on that ground? Men who have committed men. Still, it is a device of man and not a gift of crimes, and who have been convicted of them. nature. With this government we seek to per- Fourth, interest. Whom do we exclude on that petuate and carry on society, and we find in look- ground? Men for example, who have a wager on ing around society, a mass of persons who are to the result of election, and who therefore may be be governed, and who also seek to partici- supposed to be more interested in the wager than pate in the government. Now, sir, I desire they are in the result of the election. Fifth, to ascertain a principle by which we shall incorporation into the mass of society. Whom do discover who of those persons shall partici- we exclude on that ground? Men who have pate in the government, and who shall be not yet been long enough with us to become one excluded from it. What is that principle? The with us. They are in the society but not of it. same one which I have already indicated, that, if Such persons as aliens and others-citizens of the participation of these men will tend to per- others States, if you please, but not yet long petuate and uphold and carry forward society, enough in the government to participate properly then they ought to participate in it; but, on the in the franchise. Sir, if there are any other other hand, if their participation will tend to sub- classes than these, I would like to know it. vert, and destroy, and overthrow society, then If any man can give a principle for excluding they ought not to participate in it, and on the ground of individual incapacity, for any I cannot find any other principle on other reason except want of intelligence, want of which to rest the right of suffrage. independence, want of integrity, want of interest, Everything else is arbitrary, and everything else and the failure to be incorporated in the mass is without rule. This is with rule, and can pro- of society, I would like to know it. Sir, it perly be applied. If we proceed still further. seems to me that we may divide all the inhabIn the elucidation of this subject, we will find itants of the country or of the State into two there are two classes of persons who, on this great classes-active and passive. The active theory, can be excluded. The first class is those inhabitants are those who have these qualifications, wAo have personal incapacities, and the second who have the suffrage, and who hold offices. class those who, having no personal incapacities, The passive are those who have them not. Would by their action in a particular case So that the elective franchise must of necessity tend to arrest the progress of the gov- be exercised by a portion of the population. eminent, or perhaps to subvert it. In regard There never was a case ii which the suffrage was to that second class, I do not intend to speak. 'I universal, and there never can be because the Will simply allude to them. They are such men application of these rules will exclude a certain ts the Jacobites of England, for example, to class of persons from the exercise of the frannom it was proper to submit the oath of chise. If we attempt to act on any other allegiance in order to determine whether they principle, if we attempt to exclude men Would or would not subvert the government. because they are not of the same height There was no allegation of incapacity in such with ourselves, because they are not dressed ases, but simply that having the capacity they as we are, because they do not have the Would not properly use it, so I shall dismiss same origin, or because they do not have the these for the present from my consideration. I now same color-then, sir, instead of settling this doeCome to the other class, which bears upon our pres. trine of franchise on principle, we settle it on a 268 mere arbitrary rule; and society never will permit chise. And why is it not? Because it in the long run, any such question, to be settled does not come within one of these five principles, on an arbitrary rule. It will insist that we shall which have been stated. It is no test of intelli. come around to a principle in time, if we are not gence or independence, or integrity, or interest already there, and that, sir, explains the con- and therefore is an arbitrary thing entirely, coming vulsions and excitements in society on such within no general principle. questions, because instead of seeking to settle Mr. HALE - If the gentleman will allow me, I them upon principle, we seek to settle them by would like to ask, under which of the five princi. an arbitrary rule. Now sir, having laid down in plea of exclusion would the gentleman be justified a brief way these general principles which seem in excluding women from the right to vote. to me to be impregnable, but which might be much Mr. T. W. DWIGHT - I would say with regard more fully developed than I have attempted to to that, I have already made a general division into do, we may apply them to the particular case, two great classes, one of which includes persons who and distinct question which we have now before may be excluded for personal incapacity, and the us, that of the right of the colored man to vote. other is where the admission of the persons to vote Let us apply these five rules to his case. Let us would tend to subvert the constitution of society or take them up in the reverse order of that in which arrest its progress. If this exclusion the gentle I have given them. Can we say that the colored man from Essex [Mr. Hale] refers to, is to man is not incorporated in the mass of society? be placed anywhere, it is to be placed under Evidently not, for he is born on the soil. He has that class, and not under one of these five prinbeen here as we have been. He has all the ele- ciples. Admitting the capacity, it is to be ments of citizenship, for by the common law, placed upon the ground, that if they were per. birth gives a man his citizenship; he is mitted to vote the tendency of it might be therefore incorporated into the mass of our to prevent the developement of society. Now, society. Is there any want of interest on his sir, recurring to the thread of my argument, in part so that we may say, as a class, these men respect to the qualification of property, I wish to say feel no interest in the elective franchise? Plainly still further that, even supposing we ought to make not. That cannot be urged. Is there any want property a test in any case of the elective franchise, of integrity as a class? Clearly not. They have the particular form in which it exists in the not been convicted as a class of any crime. Is New York Constitution is the worst possible form there any want of independence? Clearly not. in which it could be presented, because it requires They are not in the almshouse. They support the possession of a free-hold estate of land. So that themselves. What then is the only ground in this a negro may own fifty thousand dollars' worth of analysis, if my analysis be a correct one, on which personal property and have no right to vote; but if we can exclude them? On none other but the he has $250 worth of land then he has the right. want of intelligence. Now. sir, let us meet this And more than that, sir, it not only requires an question, if we are to meet it at all, on that broad ownership of land, but a freehold interest in the ground; and I will say that I much prefer the land. So that, ifa negro hada lease for ninety-nine last part of the speech of the gentleman from years, he could not vote. He might have the Kings [Mr. Murphy], where he attempts to attack most valuable piece of land in the city of New the ability of the negro to vote because he is York under a lease for ninety-nine years, yet he of an interior order of beings, rather than the first cannot vote unless he has a life interest in it. part where he wishes that we would present to Thus wecan see what an arbitrarydistinction this is, the people of this State the question whether they which in effect says that a man has all the virtues would not exclude him on the ground of not having who owns a tenement house for life, but who has two hundred and fifty dollars' worth of real estate. none of them, if he holds a lease of it for ninety-nine In respect to intelligence, he says he believes years. The principle of the amendment is simply himself, that is no ground of exclusion, though he this, that it includes the freehold of the estate, and wants us to ask the people to say whether it is or every lawyer who hears me will recognize that that not such a ground. On that point it seems to means not only the fee of the land, but a life me, that when the people sent us here to estab- estate, and excludes every lease holding interest, lish a constitution for them, they did not wish us no matter how long it may be. If we are to into submit it on a ground that we ourselves think suit the intelligence of the people of New York is radically bad. The gentleman from Kings [Mr. by submitting to them this proposition, then I say, Murphy], says this ground is radically bad and yet let us make it a little more perfect than the one we he wants us to submit it to the people. Shall we have now before us. When I was in the law school submit everything that we think is radically bad of Yale College, it was the practice and a part of the to the people, simply because the people have law of the State of Connecticut to require, in ceronce passed upon it in a given direction? If so, tain contingencies, that a man should have a freethen instead of being representatives here, we are hold estate of land to the value of seven dollars a mere servants, mere slaves, without exercising year in order to vote. The students who came to our own judgment in any respect. Our own judg- that college from various parts of the country had ment dictates one thing, as he admits, and yet no land there, of course. What practice was he wants to have another thing, contrary to our adopted in order to enable them to vote? A welljudgment, submitted. Now, sir, I wish to say a known politician, as I have heard, though I do single word in respect to the property clause in not vouch for its exact truth, had a large building the Constitution of this State. Iu the first in the city containing a number of rooms, and it place, property, as we all concede, is no was his practice on the morning of election day groumd of exclusion from the elective fran- to convey to those students, who sympathized 269 with him politically, one by one, a room in this building. After the election, and when the night came, these rooms were deeded back, and so on in succession the rooms went round to the various generations of students. When the morning of election came, and the deed was given, then all the civic virtues passed to the student; he was a man of integrity and of honor, and had all the qualities necessary for the exercise of the franchise; but in the afternoon, when the deed was given back, all these virtues went away. I suppose, sir, it passed under that clause of the deed which conveys "all the rights and hereditaments thereunto belonging." That is my view, sir, of this question of the right of property. Now sir, I have come to the last part of my argument, in which I wish to pay my respects to the gentleman from Kings [Mr. Murphy]. I refer to what he said in respect to my friend and colleague, Dr. Lieber, on the broad ground that the negro is a man utterly unfit to vote because he is of an inferior organization, and in order to do him no injustice, I will read his remarks as I find them reported in the morning paper. After quoting what he did from Dr. Lieber's book, he goes on to say: "' There, sir, is a writer of distinction, and who is indorsed politically, who maintains very distinctly the inferiority of the negro race in capacity, the ground upon which many who oppose negro suffrage base their opposition to granting to the negro the right to vote." There, sir, is tle distinct assertion of the gentleman from Kings [Mr. Murphy], that Dr. Lieber, in these pages from which he quotes, had asserted the inferiority of the negro to such an extent that he ought not to have the elective franchise. I have, sir, in my hand the book from which he quoted at the time, and I find that he read about eight, ten or twelve lines on the first part of the page, but did not read the last part of the paragraph which bears distinctly upon the subject; and in order to make Dr. Lieber's opinion perfectly clear, I shall be obliged to read the whole of the passage. I will say before reading it, that what Dr. Lieber said was this, that there were certain races, such as the Pre-lnca races in South America, and the Hottentots, and Bushmen, that were inferior races, but he did not say that of the negro, but distinctly said the opposite, which the gentleman did not mention. I will now proceed to read the whole passage. " Yet though the distinction between man and brute has thus been distinctly drawn, comparative anatomy and physiology are establishing daily more clearly the fact, that all those beings Comprehended under the vast term of human species, are not only morally or individually distinguished from each other, but in a very marked way physiologically, and as to their capacities by Whole races, forming a gradual scale of superirity. The most peculiar skulls of the go-called PreIuca race, found in South America, are so entirely different from ours, that they alone llow an essential difference of that race from ours. The Caffres, the Boushomanras, (Bushmen), t Hottentots, and the poor Papous, for instance, differ so materially in their anatomy and physiologic organization, from the races which com parative anatomy as well as the history of civilization teaches us, by conclusive facts, to consider as superior, that we should abandon all truth, were we to deny the difference. There is probably no reflecting man, who was not painfully startled when he became first acquainted with these nevertheless imperative truths. We love to treat, in our theories and meditations, all men as absolutely equal; but truth is truth, however it may militate with beloved, nay, generous theories; and God is the God of truth." That is where the gentleman closed his quotation. I will proceed to read you the rest of the passage. " He'must have had his all wise ends in creating these different races, as he must have had his ends in creating those many tribes and races, who without light, without expression of thought, or cultivation, have increased and vanished, or who continue to people so many parts of the globe, yet do no more than people them; tribes which live without history, tha, is, without progressive change, interesting to the naturalist, but of no account in the history of mankind. Nor is it for us here to speculate how far these tribes, now so low and brutish, may be susceptible of organic improvement, which, it cannot be denied, has taken place with some races. The negro of Virginia is superior, as to the formation of his head, to the negro of the more southern states, because he descends from earlier imported generations. The negro of the most southern of the United States again, has much more expression of intelligence than the newly imported negro in the West Indies. So has civilization improved the formation of the head in the Celtic race." There sir, you will perceive distinctly what Dr. Lieber says, that such races as the Pre-Incas, the Caffres, the Bushmen, the Poor Papous, never improve, but the negro does improve, and he puts him upon the same plane with the Celtic race. Why the gentleman from Kings [Mr. Murphy] read the first part of this page, and did not read the last, I cannot say. I presume him to be an honorable gentleman, as I have heard that he is, and therefore, I suppose that he had some good reason for it-that he overlooked it. I blame him for his precipitancy, though I do not charge him with unfairness. Philosophers, sir, at the present day, take no such position as that taken by the gentleman from Kings. Have we not seen within a day or two in the newspapers a denial from Prof. Agassiz of the statement that he advanced such a doctrine-and that it was a villianous calumny? And my friend, Judge Daly, a member of this Convention, has informed me that at an interview he had with Humboldt, than whom no authority stands higher, he said to him there was no distinction either anatomically or physiologically between the negro race and our own. Mr. M. I. TOWNSEND- Will the gentleman allow me to ask him a question. Does he understand that Prof. Agassiz denies having said at Charleston that the races were not equal. Mr. T. W. DWIGHT-I understand so, sir, though it was a mere newspaper report; therefore I will not pledge myself for its truth. Mr. M. I. TOWNSEND —I am very glad to hear he has got to denying it now; it is much 270 more creditable to him to deny it than to be making such remarks. Mr. T. W. DWIGHT-As I believe I have fully vindicated Dr. Lieber from this charge, I would not go a single step further were it not that he has been brought before this Convention, and has submitted certain papers to us for our examination; so in addition I will say that that gentleman [Dr. Lieber] has been known for years as a most ardent and persistent anti-slavery man; and that he lost the presidency of the college of South Carolina, where he was shortly before the rebellion, because he was not supposed to be sound upon that question. He was a professor there and had every reason, as far as the surroundings were concerned, to be quiet, if nothing more, but in his books he had laid down some principles which led people to suppose he was not sound. That I have, sir, from reliable authority. During the whole progress of this rebellion there has been no man who has stood more firm on the side of those who believe that the negro is ultimately to be elevated. Having disposed of this charge, and having, as far as I can, disposed of the anatomical and physiological argument, by citations, from the authority of such men as Humboldt and the like, I have only to say one word further in respect to the general question of the intelligence of the negro. I, too, sir, in past times have had my prejudices on this subject. When this subject was last submitted to the people of this State, I voted that the negro should not vote. I, sir, in those days, was busy looking at the negro's heels to see if he had brains [laughter]. But, sir, a certain incident occurred in the course of my life which gave my thoughts another turn. I stood, two or three years ago, on the corner of Fourteenth street, by Union Square, in the city of New York, having walked up the street simply for a stroll. I came into a crowd and wondered what the assembling of the crowd could mean. Instinctively drawing back, as I do from crowds, I looked about me and I saw, a few rods further on, a body of men coming from the other side of the square, and marching down the street; as I looked alittle closer, I saw a half-dozen men whom I well knew-such men as John Jay, Charles P. Kirkland and others of that stamp. Before them was a platoon of men to clear a way for the procession to march forward. I wondered what that could mean. I saw that the gentlemen named stood erect with a manly port and bearing, as though they were filled with some great thought. As I looked a little further on, I saw, coming behind them, men clad in the United States uniform, standing erect with a manly port also, and also looking as though they had some great thought to inspire them. I looked a little downwards, and as I raised my eyes and looked upwards, I saw that they were soldiers with black faces-the first of this class I had ever seen, and the first of the class, I believe, who marched down the streets of New York to go to the war. Then I cast my eyes around me, and looked further, and I saw standing on the sidewalk, the wives and children of these men, and I saw that they had the same feelings that the wives and children of other soldiers had when their husbands and fathers went to the war, of whom I had seen many; and I saw that while the wives and children of those colored soldiers felt the deepest sympathy, yet they thought the time had come when their race should show that they were men, and thus should be enfranchised. And from that hour, sir. I have felt that the negro was a man. The hammer of conviction fell on the hard rock of prejudice, and there gushed forth from my heart a stream of sympathy, and even of affection. I am not ashamed to say that from that hour, I had an affection for the man who, when everything else was dark and gloomy, would go forth to protect me and my wife and children, and my friends and society, and above all, his country, knowing or feeling, as he did, that if there was suffering to be endured, he must endure it, that if any cruelty was to be practiced it was to be practiced upon him, for that then the cry of "no quarter" for the negro soldier was re-echoing through the South. And men who have done that for me I believe, sir, to be men. I have no doubt about it. I have no doubt of the men that I saw with such a port and bearing as those men had. There was no stolid look about them. And now I am convinced that the negro has intelligence, and that he has cultivable power within him. And if he has not intelligence enough now, we can educate him, and make him what he ought to be; hence I think that he complies with my requisition as to the qualities a man should have of intelligence, independence, patriotism and an appreciation of the duties he owes to the State and to society. There are particular instances among them where they are unfit to vote, and so there are among other classes. We cannot establish a class without having some such cases. We may establish a class above the age of twenty-one, and yet there are some who could vote intelligently under the age of twenty-one. But we must have a general rule, though it may bear hard in particular cases. Therefore, in this case, it is no argument to say that some of these men are unfit to vote, when we find that as a class they have the qualities to fit them to be enfranchised. I shall therefore dismiss that branch of the subject without further remark. I wish now to say a few words in regard to the amendment reported by the committee. I regret that I must ask for so much time, in order to fully bring out my views, but I do not expect again to trespass upon the attention of the Convention upon this point. The clause reported by the committee provides that idiots, lunatics, persons under guardianship and paupers, shall not be permitted to exercise the elective franchise. I have thought that all these persons come within the rule I have laid down. Idiots and lunatics plainly do. In fact I have heard no one say that an idiot or lunatic ought to vote, but only that it was very difficult to ascertain at the polls, whether a man was an idiot or a lunatic, or not. I think there has been some little confusion in regard to the three classes of persons which are characterized in our Revised Statutes, who are called idiots, lunatics and persons of unsound mind. The third class -persons of unsound mind- are not known to the common law. There are only two classes, so far as I know - idiots and lunatics- there referred to. NOw, in order to determine who is an idiot, the rule 271 is very simple. A man who cannot tell his age, and do other simple acts of that kind, is known as an idiot at common law. A lunatic is a person who has departed from the natural course, and shows natural evidence of it - outward evidence —in what is called frenzy. Here we have ocular evidence as to who a lunatic is. Then there is a large class of persons who have lost their faculties by age-whose memory is impaired and who have become unfit for the management of their affairs, who would come under the other class-persons of unsound mind; so that there is practically no difficulty in telling who a lunatic or who an idiot is, because we have the outward signs. Whatever difficulty there is, applies equally in determining who is a minor or who is a male. We cannot establish any system of voting without allowing the inspectors to exercise some judgment. There is a famous case found in the law books, of a person who appeared in the habiliments of a man, but who was supposed to be a woman -- the Ohevalier D'Eon - and many wagers were laid in regard to his sex, in England, so much so, that it led ultimately, among other things, to the abolition of the whole law of wagers. In the case of young men it is often impossible to tell whether they are twenty-one or not, so that the inspectors must exercise a judgment. Therefore, there is no objection where the case is determined by ocular inspection, to introduce these classes into the law. If the gentleman will consult one of the early writers, Blackstone, he will find there has been from an early period of the law, a kind of trial called the trial by inspection. Though we had trial by juries, judges were to determine by ocular inspection whether a person was or was not what was alleged. This idea is only an extension of the principle of trial, by inspection, to a case of this kind. A few words in reference to persons under guardianship. I am of the opinion that it is a proper mode of characterizing persons who have been declared to be of unsound mind-that guardianship is a fit and proper word for that purpose. Mr. Willard, in his Equity Jurisprudence (and he is understood to have been skillful in this subject of lunacy), uses this word "guardianship" a number of times, in reference to persons who had a committee appointed over them. He speaks of a lunatic as a person under guardianship. The same word is used in several States of the Union, and I, therefore, believe that itis correctly used here. In regard to the class of paupers I should not go as far as the commite in excluding them. I think no pauper should be excluded unless he has been in the public almshouse, for the reason that the law holds distinctly, that persons who are supported tlus-who receive even temporary relief, are included under that name. While I think the Committee is strictly accurate, I have my doubts Whether in these special cases of indigence, not familiar to the people, and about which there any be some discussion, and in respect to whlch some odium may be cast by the report of the committee if it should be adopted there Should be any exclusion. Cousequently, while I Judge the committee to be right, I would rather wis8 the would waive that branch of their report, so that we may have a simple, plain question, whether any male person, of the proper age and other usual qualifications, may be allowed to vote. Mr. FRANCIS - Mr. Chairman, the question before us, if I rightly understand it, is simply this: Shall a separate proposition be submitted to the people for their decision at the ensuing election as to whether a property qualification of $250 shall be imposed upon the colored citizens of this State as a condition of their exercise of the right of suffrage? Stripped of all verbiage and extraneous accompaniments, this is the sum and substance of the amendment offered by the gentleman from Kings [Mr. Murphy]. Yet he tells us that he is opposed to a property qualification for either white or black voters, still arguing, however, in favor of submitting a proposition that embraces the principle. Why? Because, he tells us, it is sanctioned by precedent. Almost any wrong, all wrongs in fact, connected with human government, may be sustained if precedent affords a good reason for their perpetuation. Slavery itself, with the claim of divine right to justify it, might to this day have reposed in security, and been strengthened to an overpowering institution, even in the great Empire State, if precedent had been the guide of State action with reference to it. The property qualification for white voters would, on the same ground, have been upheld. Adhere to precedent, and progress is impossible. Every forward movement in government, in civilization, in all that elevates mankind and improves the world, is a divergence from precedent -a breaking away from the wrongs and abuses of the past, and the assertion of a higher power of manhood. So that, in putting forth the proposition to the people for the retention or rejection of the property qualification, on the assumption that this course is justified, if not sanctified by precedent, the gentleman pays deference to a repudiated principle of the past —a heresy which can never more obtain ascendancy among a free people —rather than recognizing the freedom of the present, or the higher hopes of the future. I say, let no precedent stand in the way of our doing right, as God gives us light to see the right. Then, again, consider for a moment the question of a separate submission as proposed: My friend from Onondaga [Mr. Corbett], in language apt as it was strong, yesterday, pronounced the policy "cowardly." And when my friend from Schenectady [Mr. Landon], in a spirit of earnestness that indicated the strength of his convictions, expressed the fear that, unless separate submission was adopted, our whole work here might possibly be rejected by the people, I felt that the policy was not too harshly characterized by the declaration that it was "cowardly." Why should there be separate submission of this question any more than others that are to be presented to the people in the amended Constitution? There will bo wide differences of opinion, no doubt, upon proposed changes in our judioial system, our muuicipal organizatlons, our canal policy, our financial plan, our recommendations as to the powers and duties of the Legislature, and upon other subjects deeply affecting the interests of the State. 272 Why not have these each submitted separately to no issue raised on the subject. The black men aro the people? Why single out the one question of our fellow-citizens, possessed of the qualities of man. suffrage, or rather property qualification for suf- hood, susceptible of improvement, capable of pro. frage as affecting colored citizens, and say this gress, marked by all the attributes that characterize alone shall stand by itself- all other questions human beings, subject to the same laws of God and shall be embodied as a unit? But I am answered, man, and advancing with us to the same inevitable " Ah, but upon this subject of suffrage there is to destiny of mortality. In so far as they have oppor. be a party contest - the passions of partizanship tunities we know that they advance in knowledge, are to be drawn out, and that cannot be said of and as they are schooled in virtue or vice, so they the other questions." And is this true? Why, rise or fall in the scale of manhood. Pursued by only yesterday the distinguished gentleman from cruel prejudice, with the elements of manhood Clinton [Mr. Weed], with certainly as good a demo- crushed out of them almost in infancy by the ineratic record as they make them now-a-days -a tolerant spirit of caste, it is surprising that they representative Democrat, young, fresh, vigorous should have, in spite of all, so much of intelligence and influential - avowed here in his place, openly and virtue as they manifest-so much of the and boldly that he was now, and always had been, good sense that distinguishes our civilizationin favor of extending the elective franchise to the so much of the sterling patriotism that has colored man upon the same terms that it is enjoyed stamped them with the honors of loyalty, so by white people, and his vote in the legislature, at many representative men, eminent for their its late session, shows that he means what he intellectual greatness and oratorical powers, says. Other gentlemen of the same party. not of whom Garnet and Douglass are illust-ri here, perhaps, but elsewhere, I know avow them- ous examples. Shall we continue the policy of selves in favor of manhood suffrage. Why, the cruel injustice to this people by denying them Democratic mayor of my city-the city of Troy- equality of political rights, and for no better reaa gentleman who has a keen appreciation of justice sons than those of precedent, and the opinions of and the obligations of gratitude, it is understood, some statesmen of a past, and, I may add, a less received a large proportion of the votes of colored enlightened age? No, sir, the barbarism of electors at our charter election last spring, and I the past must give way before the advancing feel confident that the Constitution will all the more power of liberty and civilization, The logic of strongly be. commended to his support if it embodies the war, the claims of manhood, the decree the principle of suffrage equality. Then, it may of the Almighty, who has written our destiny in be asked, why not submit it by itself, and let the very light of heaven, which is alike free to democrats and republicans vote upon it as they all his children-all proclaim the brotherhood of choose? The question may be answered by ask- man, and assert the doctrine of impartial freedom. ing another. Why not submit the other questions God directs; we must obey I by themselves as well? We want no piecemeal Mr. OPDYKE -While I do not propose to policy in the matter; we are to have a Constitu- enter into a discussion of the report of the committion, not in separate patches, but as a whole, and tee generally, I wish to say a few words on the as a whole it should stand or fall, precedents of subject of conferring the rieht to vote upon the colthe dead past to the contrary notwithstanding. ored man. I think much misapprehension exists Besides, sir, I am quite clear in my convictions, as to the question at issue. It is not a question that there will be less of party feeling, far more whether we shall confer the right of suffrage on harmony of public sentiment in connection with colored men. That question, sir, has already been our work here, if we present for popular accept- decided. They now exercise that right. The ance the form of a Constitution complete and as Constitution of the State has guaranteed it to one question, rather than by the proposed division. them. The only question before us, is whether And this, for the reason that the people will judge the property qualification which the present Conit one and complete upon its merits, and free stitution requires shall be continued. That is the from the antagonisms and political strife and pre- whole question, and it does seem to me, that in a judice which would inevitably attend a separate body of intelligent men, that question should resubmission. In so far as the suffrage question, ceive but one answer, and that in the negative. separately submitted, would receive special atten- The opinion that property confers on man a tion from the people-and that it would in that form higher capacity to exercise the elective franchise provoke an active, and in some quarters, a bitter exists in Great Britain still; but the fallacy contest, I have no doubt-to that degree would has long since been exploded here. We have the public mind be diverted from the considera- found that there is no necessary connection tion of the other important questions embodied as between the possession of property and politione in the proposed Constitution. " One thing at cal knowledge. Very often, sir, it is found that a time" is good doctrine in all the affairs of life, they do not co-exist in the same individual and we shall, in my opinion, best discharge That qualification became odious; we expunged it our duty. and best serve our constituents, by from the Constitution so far as relates to the white presenting to them the results of our labors here man. Why not do it now as relates to the black in one form and that of a complete Constitution, man? I would like to ask what characteristics without any fragmentary work about it. I do the black man possesses that justifies the require not intend, Mr. Chairman, to discuss here at ment from him of this qualification, when it is not any considerable length the merits of the ques- required from the white man? Is there, sir, some tion of the extension of suffrage to colored citi- hidden virtue in property when in the hands of the zens. It does seem to me that, in this noon-day black man that it does not possess when in the of the ninetenth'century, there should really be hands of the white man? If so, has that virtue te 273 power of going up from itself into the moral and mental nature of the black man? It would be absurd to suppose that these questions could, either of them be answered in the affirmative; and yet, unless they can both be thus answered, the requirement is as ungrounded in reason as it is invidious in character. I cannot conceive, sir, how a great party can go before the people and advocate its continuance. I cannot even conceive how an individual elector, in view'of the odium which now attaches to that requirement, can give it his vote. Sir, if I were more strongly opposed to negro suffrage than the gentleman from Kings [Mr. Murphy] it would not have the slightest influence on my action on this question; and I believe that the people of this State, when they come to understand this question in its naked simplicity, as they assuredly will, before they are called upon to vote for the Constitution that we shall present, will, with a degree of emphasis and unanimity that will greatly surprise us, declare that this partial and invidious distinction shall be expunged from the Constitution of the State. It is, after all, simply a question between the voting negro with property, and the non-voting negro without property. That is all there is about it. But, Mr. Chairman, there is another important aspect to this question upon which I desire to say a single word. It is known that the people of the United States, through their representatives in Congress, have decreed that the colored men of the South shall have equality of suffrage. A large majority of the representatives from this State concurred in that decree, and the people of the State have indorsed their action subsequently at the polls. I cannot see, therefore, how the people of this State can, mn fairness, refuse to prescribe for themselves a rule which they enjoined and enforced upon others. The rule, sir, with regard to ourselves is unobjectionable and free from danger. But with regard to those on whom we have enforced it, it is most obnoxious, and of very doubtful expediency, on account of the greater ignorance of the masses of the colored race in that section. At the South the colored population nearly equals in number that of the white, and they have but just emerged from that benighted ignorance engendered by slavery, while here they are few in numbers and comparatively enlightened. It does seem to me that the people of this State will not put themselves in the unenviable position of refusing to take a homceopathic dose of the Political medicine which they have administered in such allopathic doses to others. Sir, I believe that if they knew its qualities were noxious they would feel in honor bound to present the poisoned chalice to their own lips. In regard to the question of separate submission I will say at this time but a single word. I cannot for the life of me, see the propriety of submitting to the people separately, a questioh in regard to which there are no just grounds for difference of opinion, nor RWuld theye be now, or hereafter, were it not that the black man has hitherto been an xciting element in our political contests., Mr. COMSTOOK - I very much regret that this nveution has embarked in a debate which it emas to me is unnecessary. I desire to submit a 85 few observations for the purpose of stating the question as clearly as 1 am able. In my judgment we have been debating a question in regard to which there is not, and cannot be, a negative voice in this Convention; and that is whether the law of suffrage shall be sent down to the people for them to decide upon the freehold qualification in regard to colored men. For it will be found when we have examined the suject, that every proposition before this committee involves that very question, and the only point remaining will be, whether it shall be sent in one form or in another form. Now, sir, it will be remembered that the Constitution of 1846 provides, in its principal enacting part, that the male inhabitants of the State who are citizens, shall be clothed with the elective franchise. It is supposed that that would confer the right of suffrage equally upon men of every color. It certainly would, if colored men as well as white men were citizens. But that enacting part of the Constitution of 1846 is followed by a proviso which prescribes a freehold qualification for colored, suffrage, and taking the whole of the Constitution together, the elective franchise is vested in the white male citizens of the State, and in the colored citizens of the State, who, by thrift and prudence, have acquired a small freehold estate. So much for'the Constitution of 1846. I now call the attention of this committee to the report of the Committee on the Right of Suffrage. That report, like the Constitution which it proposes to revise,vests the elective franchise in the citizen inhabitants of the State. But, unlike the Constitution of 1846, it omits the proviso which imposes the freehold qualification upon colored suffrage. Sir, suppose this Convention adopts the plan of suffrage submitted by the committee on that subject, what will be the question before the people? Not only that feature of the Constitution, but every other feature. All that we do in this Convention is but a mere proposition to the people, and, therefore, the plan of suffrage adopted by the Convention in that form, will merely ask the people to say whether they will or will not retain the freehold qualificatioft for colored suffrage. That is the only essential difference between the plan of the Committee on the Right of Suffrage and the Constitution of 1846. There are other differences of detail to be sure, but in regard to the great right of suffrage, that is the fundamental and essential difference; and, therefore, the plan of the committee proposes precisely to submit to the Ultimate verdict of the people the question whether that freehold qualification shall continue or shall got. I come next to the substitute offered by the gentleman from Cayuga [Mr. C. C. Dwight], and we shall find that that has exactly the same characteristics. It differs only from the report of the Committee on the Right of Suffrage in regard to the thirty or ten days' citizenship in the State, andin regard to paupers, lunatics and some other matters of mere detail; but, like the report of the Commit tee on the Right of Suffrage, it limits the proviso imposing the freehold qualification upon the suffrage of the negro. Suppoeinstsead of the plan of the committee, that this Covei adopts the substitute of the gentlemanr f 'i Oayga 274 [Mr. C. C. Dwight], what then is the question? It is still the question whether the people will or will not approve of that freehold qualification; because, like the plan of the' committee, that will go to the people as a proposition of this Convention, as everything must go. That brings me to the much misrepresented amendment of the gentleman from Kings [Mr. Murphy] which has been extensively spoken of in this debate as if it brought forward, for the first time, a fresh and independent proposition for a freehold qualification upon the right of suffrage. That is a misrepresentation of that amendment; such is not its character at all. The only difference betweenthat amendment and the plan of the committee, or the substituted plan of the gentleman from Cayuga [Mr. C. C. Dwight], is verbal merely; for while the amendment of the gentleman from Kings [Mr. Murphy], in express words refers to this freehold qualification, the other plans necessarily imply it, and each and every of these three plans is merely a proposition to the people. What, then, is the real difference between the amendment offered by the gentleman from Kings [Mr. Murphy] and the substitute or plan to which it is offered? It respects the mode of submission merely, for while the plan of the committee and the substitute offered by the gentleman from Cayuga [Mr. C.C. DwightJ propose to submit that freehold qualification mixed up with other alien considerations-mixed up with other parts and perhaps with this whole Constitution which we are about to frame-the amendment of the gentleman from Kings [Mr. Murphy] proposes to submit that question pure and unmixed, to be decided by the people on ts own intrinsic merits; and that is the only differ ence between the different plans before this Convention. What, then, is the question before this committee? Is it a question whether the African is inferior to, equal to, or superior to the Caucasian race? -whether the descendants of Ham are equal to or inferior to the Sons of Japheth? There is no such question raised by the amendment of the gentleman from Kings [Mr. Murphy], because if those questions are involved at all, they are involved in every proposition before -the Convention. Is it a question whether a freehold qualification shall be imposed upon suffrage? That is not the question before this committee, because every proposition before it implies that that very question shall be sent to the people. That is a necessity of every proposition, because the freehold qualification is in the existing Constitution, and every proposal which looks to dispense with that qualification neoesarily implies tha that very point is to be determined by the people. Sir, when a question is stated in its true and exact relations, you are always very near its solution. What is the duty of this Convention upon the question thus stated, for I believe that is thte trustatement of the issue now before the committee. ir, I am for a separate submission. I have piions of my own upon this subje9t of negro suf e. I do not care to trouble this committee with them, for they are irrelevant to y puWrpse, anud irrelevant to this debat I not hesitate to declare my opinions when this question is before the people, in what. ever form it shall be sent to them. ' If there is any part of the Constitution which can be separated 'from its other parts without confusion, it is this very question of colored suffrage. It is distinct in the public mind. Every voter in the State can and will separate that question from every other, and in the very nature of things it precedes all other questions of constitutional arrangement. It is the great question, who are the' sovereign people of the State; and that does precede the question of the mere arrangement of the machinery of government. Suffrage is the motive power which sets in motion that machinery,; and, therefore, I say that a decision now, that this question shall not be submitted separately, is a decision that no part of this Constitution shall be submitted to the people for their separate vote. Is the Convention now prepared to say that? Is there any body here prepared to say that no part of this Constitution shall go to the people as a separate proposition? I trust not. In my judgment, not only this question, but other questions ought to be sent to the people separately. It is the plainest duty of the Convention, in my opinion, to separate the Constitution into great distinct propositions so far as you can without too much confusing the public mind; and it will be a question of judgment and discretion where you will stop in that process: but that you can carry that process to some extent I have no manner of doubt. Let me point the attention of the Convention to a recent example set in the State of Massachusetts in the year 1853. They attempted to revise their Constitution. A Convention was called and a complete Constitution was formed and submitted to the people under nine different heads, and in nine different and distinct parts separately,and that Constitution was passed upon by an intelligent vote of the people upon each one of those propositions, and it so happened that each one of them, by itself, was rejected. Turn to the Manual which is before the Convention and you will find that history. Now, sir, it may be safely taken for granted that the people to whom all our work is to be submitted are either for or against colored suffrage without the qualification which has heretofore existed. Their convictions are one way or the other. If they are for it; if the spirit of the age as it is called, is ready for it, then the friends of this measure may be assured of its acceptance by the people. They have an undoubted assurance - an assurance the more undoubted if they do not mix up this question with other constitutional reforms which the people may not favor. If, cn the other hand, the people are not prepared to respond favorably to that proposition, then it is attempting to cheat and defraud them of their will, by mixing it up with other and alien considerations. There is a fair and manly way to do it, and there is an unfair and unmanly way to do it. It is the fair and manly way, to meet the question boldly on its merits. It is said to be, in some degree a party question. It is not strictly a party question, for there are men of all parties who Will vote in different ways upon it. Suppose it is a party -question, and in some way, I think it is, is that any reason why parties should not firlny and honestly measure their strength upon it atthe 275 polls and before the people, and take the popular verdict and be content with it? Upon every consideration, sir, which occurs to my mind, this question ought to be submitted separately. Mr. AXTELL - I move that the committee do now rise, report progress, and ask leave to sit again. The question was put on the motion of Mr. Axtell and it was declared lost. Mr. SEYMOUR-I do not propose, Mr. Chairman, to detain the committee long, but before this question which we have before us shall pass from the consideration of the committee, I very much desire to make some remarks, particularly upon the real matter at issue, which is as to the manner in which the question that has been discussed shall be submitted to the people. I am pleased that the gentleman from Cayuga [Mr. C. C. Dwight]. has presented the question, by his amendment, in the way in which he has. It presents it for the consideration of this Convention far better, in my opinion, than it is presented by the proposition as it came from the majority of the committee. It submits this single question, by striking out the word " white" from the proposition regulating suffrage, whether the white citizens and the black citizens of this State shall stand upon an equality at the ballot box. That is a simple, plain question, to be presented to the people, when they shall be called upon to pass upon the result of our labors. And I think in that form, coupled with the amendment proposed by the gentleman from Kings [Mr. Murphy] it submits the whole question upon which the people of this State will be called upon to act in reference to this subject. Now, sir, if you recur to the clause as it was reported by the committee, it will be found to contain various other considerations tending very much to embarrass the minds of members. We have noticed that in the discussion. I will merely allude to, but not dwell upon them, forthey have been fully considered already by the committee. There is the important question with regard to the minimum period which shall elapse between the time when the citizen shall be naturalized and the time when he shall be allowed to vote, whether it shall be thirty days or ten days. There is also the question with regard to the disfranchisement of paupers-a question very embarrassing, as it is presented in the report of the committee. And there is the other question wlieh the committee have coupled with it, in regard to lunatics and idiots. But all these matters are found in a much clearer and plainer manner, if you take the substitute offered by the gentleman from Cayuga [Mr. C. C. Dwight], Coupling it with the amendment of the gentleman from Kings [Mr. Murphy]. For one, I could ever give my adhesion to a Constitution that hould disfranchise from twenty to thirty thoua8"d men of foreign birth who, acting upon the good faith of the previous rule on that subject, have declared their intentions to become citizens - have passed in part the ordeal that is required to beeome a constituent part of our government, With the expectation that, at a certain time, hey will be permitted to participate as citizens, te right to vote. Whatever else might be found in the Constitution which we shall frame, that is worthy of consideration and worthy to be adopted for the benefit of the people of this State, I never would give my consent, and I believe there are thousands in this State, who would withhold their assent from a Constitution which should contain such a provision. It would be a wrong to many thousand of worthy men who would make good citizens. They come from a class of people upon whom we have relied for years past in doing the great work that has built up our State andk made it what it is to.day, the Empire State of this Union. Mr. BARKER -Will the gentleman give way to allow me to ask him a question? I understood the gentleman to state that twenty or thirty thousand persons would be disfranchised if the thirty day clause were embodied in thd Constitution? Mr. SEYMOUR - Yes, sir. Mr. BARKER-I would ask him if, in his inquiry, by which he ascertained this number, he found any fact disclosing why there were more persons applied for naturalization between that period last year and the two or three years previous? Mr. SEYMOUR-I looked at no other time than in reference to the period when, in 1868, these persons coming forward to be naturalized will expect to be naturalized according to the rule that has been previously established. I do not consider itMr. BARKER-1 ask him if he has ascertained it as a fact that more applied for naturalization during the year 1866 than there did the three previous years together. Mr. SEYMOUR-I do not know. I looked only at the year 1866, and I know this fact generally, with regard to these applications, that when the person applying is looking forward to the opportunity to give his vote for the Chief Magistrate of this country, which will be given in 1868, as we hope, it has been always found that, in regard to that election, larger numbers are coming forward to be naturalized than at any other election; and the number which I have stated here has not been obtained by a count or a record,but by a general estimate of the number of votes that may be expected from this quarter at that time. But, sir, with regard to the principle of this thing; this exclusion which is made by substituting thirty days instead of ten, is just as wrong if it were to apply to but five or six thousand as if it applied to the twenty or thirty thousand, the number which has been stated upon this floor. In neither case, there being in my opinion no necessity for a change of the rule, would I accept of a Constitution that would do such a gross and palpable wrong to a citizen, or tba person who desires to be made a citizen, and to exercise the elective franchise. But, sir, I do not propose to dwell upon that feature, As to the other feature of the report to which I have alluded, that of excluding the pauper, I thnk there will be equal injustice if you adopt the Ilse presented by the committee. We have been repeaedly told in this debate that we are liing in t ninteenth century, that we are in a progressiv age and the ground upon which the discusi has pro ceeded in favor of relieving the eotd raefrom the property qualification is this idea of progress, of minds in regard to the origin of society, whether amoreliberal feeling tobe exercised by all on the this right of suffrage is, or is not, inalien. subject of admitting persons to the elective fran- able. The gentleman from Oneida [Mr. T. fhise. Yet, at the same time, while it is sought to W. Dwight], in a speech this morning, full dmit te or twelvethousand of the colored race in of learning on this subject, has, I think this State to an equal franchise with the white race, given as good an exposition of the origin and the it i sought in this arbitrary manner, and contrary condition of society, after it is organized, as we so all former preeedents, to exclude many thou- could find even if we were to consult the learned tands of white men from the privilege of voting, authors. It is true, that upon this subject of the simply upon the ground that they are poor. An original: organization of society, the learned writers inconsistency so glaring as this cannot fail to attract on natural law differ, and for two hundred years the attention of the people of this State, and the world has been debating the question, and if retained in the proposed Constitution will induce trying to discover what rights were originally tens of thousands of intelligent, liberal-minded men man's, and what were really due to the organizato refusetheir assent to the whole instrument,what. tion of society. As I said before, I think ever of good to the State may be contained in it. this is a. question which had better be' left Yor myyself, I freely declare here, that before I to those who are pleased to discuss it for would give my assent to an organic law which their own amusement, rather than for any practi would deprive the poor man of his vote, simply be- cal purpose. I take the question as it stands cause heis poor, I would withhold my sanction from before the people of this country. It comes up as the whole instrument, and be content to live a practical question, and it is to be decided as twenty, nay, one hundred years longer, under the every practical question is to be decided, as the present Constitution with all its defects. There public may judge of its expediency-expediency in is another subject which has been, to some extent, the broadest sense of the term; as they may judge discussed, in relation to idiots and persons of un- of its policy-a policy co-extensive with all the sound mind. Now, sir, I prefer the manner in interests of this State. Now, sir, they have always which 4his is treated in the present Constitution, decided these questions of suffrage, whether they to that presented by the report of the commit- have related to the African race or to the white race tee. This is retained in the substitute offered as questions of national policy. They have decided by the. gentleman from Cayuga [Mr. C. C. them as questions of political expediency, and they Dwight]. It embraces the provisions of the always will decide them so, and whatever may be present Constitution, with only the erasure of the opinions of gentlemen upon the subject of the word' "white." By those provisions the "natural right," or however much they may feel Legislature of this State is empowered to pass the right of a class of persons is to be trodden such laws as are required for the purpose of down if they are not permitted to exeroise this excluding idiots, lunatics and persons of unsound right of suffrage, the people at large, the mass of mind, from the elective franchise. We have seen the voters, those who will speak on this subject in the debate on this subject, how much a provis. at the ballot box, those who have sent us here ion to exclude idiots and lunatics necessarily runs to deliberate upon this business of the re-organinto it. It is unfit to be made a constitutional ization of this great State, as to all its interests, provision. You cannot regulate that deli- they will look at it as a practical question; they cate subject without entering into special will look at it in the light of a public policy. provisions in detail, which would be un- Now, if this were the only question before us, seemly, improper, and cumbersome to the Con- there would be no need of considering the manstitution. It should be left in the language in ner in which it was to be submitted. I presume which the present Constitution leaves it for the that the gentlemen who are in favor of embodying direetionof the Legislature, that they may apply, in unrestricted suffrage of the African race in the the proper way, the test to discover and determine Constitution, would not refuse to submit that who ar l unatics or idiots, and therefore question as a separate proposition. I doubt not unfit to: eoxercise the elective franchise, and that the majority of this Convention would be willnot equire it to be decided at the ballot box. ing to present it by itself, because it would then be Now, MIr.Chairman, leaving that proposition, with one distinct and separate proposition-the Constimany others the report of the committee, which tution of 1846 and this amendment to it. Sir, I I think oght obV t to be embraced in the organic view the question of the manner of submitting law of the Stateo we come to the simple proposi. the question as highly important; more important tion presente.bythe amendment offered by the than those questions so much elaborated by gengenteman m aga[Mr. C. C. Dwight] strik- tlemen as to the natural and abstract rights ing out the word "white" and to the substitute of men in society, or as to the right of the proposed by th gettleman from Kings [r. Mur- colored race to participate in the elective phy].:Atertevtry interesting discussion that we franchise. After a period of twenty years have.hd Oe t sbjectof the black race, in all its we have been sent here to endeavor to beringef phyii'logy4, anatomy and every other improve, if we can, the Constitution under which poifnt wy:le~ane applied as a matter of test to this great State is to be governed for a long period the:aptcty e; ithe lored rape, I shall not enter to come. There have been great evils complainea imto a *y 4 discusonon those pointt& It has been of. The public never wpuld have called this Coni wan i g dioscsion but I think entirely un- vention for the single purpose of determining pr Wtel ingno hearingwhatever upon the the question whether ten or eleven thousand rquesoLus. NorU; it sehall I dive into colored people, who do not now participaten the the.~M14~.. whiph)a~s exeroised some elective franchise, should be permitted to do so; Ve h lt 277 but they were moved by the pressure of evils arising from imperfection in the present Constitution, rather than by any interest on this subject. They felt that the judiciary system was not adequate to the wants of the State; that for the period of the last ten years it had amounted almost to a denial of justice to the whole of the people of this State, and that question, more than any other, prompted the feeling through the whole State which has called this Convention together. But, sir, there were other questions which have agitated the State for years past, and they are now pressing upon us. We saw some indications in reference to those questions, on the first assembling of this Convention, when the question of the order and regulations of business were brought before us. Sir, this State, its capital, itsindustry, its progress in material wealth and greatness, has not stood still for the last twenty years. It has advanced. And there are many who believe ithas advanced so far and is.advancing so rapidly beyond the rules add regulations of the past, that new and more enlarged provisions are demanded in its organic law for guiding and facilitating its further progress. Sir, there is a deep feeling throughout this State, and I think, without disparagement,to those feelings which refer to what have been called the rights of "manhood" far deeper and stronger than they are. This strong and unmistakable public sentiment pertains to our internal commerce and trade. It has called forth conventions in various parts of the country, to express the views of the American people and of others with whom we are connected by the indissoluble ties of business and of trade, and to express opinions in reference to what shall be done in the future. The question is what shall be done that the State of New York may maintain in wealth and commerce, its proud position. If gentlemen suppose that public sentiment and public expectation is all aggregated and concentrated on this one question of extending the right of suffrage to ten or eleven thousand colored men, they are mistaken. The commercial and business men of the State, to whom I have alluded, embrace those who, by their capital and their enterprise, reach every quarter 0f this State. They reach the masses of the people, nor are they confined to this State. They are the people of the great North-west, and our neighbors in the British Provinces at the North. Ideclare to you, Mr. Chairman, and to the other members of this committee, that they expect omething to be done in reference to the acilities for our internal trade and commerce, a subject dependent for its just arrangement upon a proper system of finance. The great and all absorbing question of finance stands first and foremost in order. Upon that will depend the future prosperity of this great State. Have gentlemea thought how far that reaches-how far future of our commerce and trade and the nor of this State are dependant upon the finanal sytem to be settled by this Convention? lihe ata peculiar era of the country's history. te lave just emerged from a great struggle for e xistence of our nation, and as a ctizen of this Q * Io proud to point to the record of i t, to tthe thousands and hundreds of thouWomeRi who have gone forth from our borders to preserve the Constitution and the government. It is their triumph which has enabled us to assemble to-day as one of the independent States of this Union. But let me remind gentlemen that this has not been accomplished without a lavish expenditure of money. I need not count the millions of dollars. New York stands pledged for, to the nation, about one-fifth of the whole national debt of nearly three thousand millions. This State alway has paid-she will ever continue to hon. orablydischarge all herobligations. Itis one ofthe objects of this Convention so to arrange our financial system, that the honor of New York as a debt paying State, as a State from the very beginning the champion of internal improvements for the development and advancement of trade and commerce-shall never be tarnished. Besides the large portion of the national debt which is resting upon us, and nowr pressing upon the tax payers, we have a large debt of our own- a debt of the State proper —amounting to nearly fifty millions of dollars. Besides that, sir, our counties, towns and cities are incumbered by debts amounting to about as much more, making an.aggregate, without considering the national debt, of more than one hundred millions of dollars. Mr. RATHBUN -It seems to me, Mr. Chairman, that this debate is extending itself to a new field-that the gentleman is discussing questions which ought to be raised at another time. The CHAIRMAN -The Chair is of the opinion that the gentleman from Rensselaer [Mr. Seymour], is applying his argument to the question now pending before the committee. Mr. SEYMOUR-I certainly intend to, Mr. Chairman, and if I supposed there were any who failed to appreciate the fact I would sit down now. It is because I am thoroughly convinced that they do appreciate it; and that before the sessions of this Convention shall be closed they will more fully appreciate it, that I have desired to be heard on this question, and on others to which I have alluded. Now, sir, after stating thus much in regard to the great questions to be settled by us, I come to the distinct point, whether the extension of the right of suffrage to ten or twelve thousand of the black race (I do not use the term disparagingly), is to be linked with and to be made an inseparable condition of the performance of those other and higher duties to which we are called. Sir, I ask the gentlemen on the other' sidei those who feel so sensitive on this question of the rights of the black race, whether they do not believe there are thousands of their constituents who will feel equally interested in these great questions to which I have alluded? And whether, if th i Constitutio which we are to make shall not, i:pot the financial question and-the canal question, ad 'the judiciary question-the three grat prominent subjects of our consideration meet the Wishe and expectations of the people of the State -they ex pect to carry a OonsittiOntsimply up the extension of suffrage to ten or twee th4osand of black men? So, let tits otd deeeire urelve& This question of the status of the: eloed race has been the most exiting of all q ons.' maye so when it shall be presented to the leo plo in a the Constitution we aro about to propos 278 The tendency is to excite feelings which are dissimilar to those that ought to operate upon the public mind when it comes to settle down upon the great basis of government, and the very existence of this State at this period. I have. said it was an extraordinary period, and fraught with great dangers; Itis so. With all this debt resting upon us we have nothing to represent values as a circulating medium-nothing but a paper currency, the most uncertain and the most fluctuating. By this uncertainty and great expansiveness it is exposing us in all our business relations to panics and reverses in finances greater than we have ever before been exposed to. No business man reflects on this subject without regarding these dangers. We must settle these questions and determine upon a public policy at this time in reference to these subjects, and they will demand a business-like, calm consideration of the people of this State. Mr. Chairman, politics die out, parties die out, and the issues that have divided parties pass away. This question of the status of the black race, which has divided the parties in this State, and throughout the Union during the last ten or twenty years, will pass away. But sir, the question of internal trade, the question of the proper adjudication and preservation of your rights in our civil tribuuals, and the higher and more important questions of the finances and the honor of this State will not pass away. They will outlive all parties, or else our proud State will sink into decay and ruin. Now, sir, I do not wish for one to mix up this question of the suffrage of ten or twelve thousand people white or black, with these grave considerations. Sir, do not gentlemen see that they are attempting to decide this question of suffrage at a time when the public mind is very sensitive upon the subject of the status of the black man and his rights. It has agitated this as well as our sister States for the last ten or twenty years. It has shaken our Union to its center. It has drawn us into a war. It has severed the Union, and were it not for the strength and patriotism of the people of the North, that Union to-day would have left us a divided people ever to remain divided. Evennow, afterthe glorious triumph of the cause of the Union; even now, after the war is over, men are studying, and considenng, and debating,as they never did. before, the great problem, what shall become of the black race? Do you not believe that the people, when they shall be called to vote upon the Constitution to be presented for their approval or rejection; when they shall have heard in tle canvass both parties on this subject, will be excited by this subject of freo suffrage to the colored race? Is there not danger that this subject, temporary in its nature and soon to pass away, may absorb the attention of the people to the neglect of more important questions which will remain with us and our posterity forever? Can this question be dicussed in the political canvass without exciting prejudices which ought not to come into the consideration of re important and vital questions? Can the peopleof his State be called to the ballot box in;ovteber next without seeing for them-:ives.r having foroed upon their consideration, thathis estion of' sfrage, is but an initiatory V* io 9f Ovt step toequality-to political equality and social equality, of the white and black races? Do I state this too strong? Look at the South now-you will behold there those old States, covered with the honor of their revolutionary sires-the States once governed by the Marions, the Rutledges, the Randolphs, and the Macons which may soon, under the operation of this system of suffrage there, be governed by the. black and not by the white race; which may soon send to our Congress black men for representatives and black men for senators, and in the end, may fill the office of Chief Magistrate of the country with one of their own race. Do you believe the people will be blind to the progress and probability of things then? Do you think they will ignore the fact also, which more than once has been illustrated in this State, that a party need not be in the majority, but may be in a very small minority and yet hold the balance of power between the great conthiding parties, and that the tery same thing that is now being enacted in the Southern States may yet exist in the the State of New York I And will gentlemen on the other side of the house deliberately propose to go into an exciting contest upon questions of this kind,when the public mind'is thus disturbed by consideration of this exciting character, and by all those feelings that ever have, and ever will, intensify a contest of different races. Do they deliberately propose to carry into a canvass that is to settle the financial policy of this State-its judicial system and internal commerce for twenty, thirty, or fifty years, the absorbing elements of bitter partisan strife? Now, sir, let the party which claims this to be such a transcendent right, which boasts of this as the grand idea of the nineteenth century, which claims that the young men of the rising generation have been baptized into this idea of the political and social equality of the white and black races-let them boldly present their proposition and let them stand up and vindicate it upon its merits and not seek to make its fate dependent upon other and more important questions. If it is what they claim it to be, as the gentleman from New York [Mr. Opdyke] has expressed it, a " homoeopathic dose," it need not be sugared over with a financial system which shall suit everybody. That homoeopathic dose need not be made sweet and palatable by a canal system that shall suit those who otherwise would not take it. No, the best interests of the State forbid that it should be thus presented to the people. If gentlemen claim this question tobe a sacred question of right, then let them maintain it as a right. After being twice defeated before the people on this distinct question, I hope you will now consent to meet your opponents at the polls upon the merits of this question, independent of extrinsic and foreign aid. If the people shall give a verdict for you, we shall bow in humble deference to that verdict. But we look for other and more permanent results from the labors of this Convention, measures affecting the welfare of our great State in all its material and social prosperity, for years to come. We hope by the adoption of the amendment of the gentleman from Kings [Mr.Murphy], to be able t o go the people of this State and to say: "We have met 279 and we have performed our duty; we have acted upon all these great questions, and in order that we might enable you to preserve and perpetuate those great interests for yourselves and your posterity down to the latest generation, we have presented them by themselves, and we have presented this other exciting question by itself." That is the way, in which, looking at all these interests, I desire these questions to go to the people. If, after we shall have made a good financial system, a good canal system, and a good judicial system, these shall be lost in political excitement, engulfed in the never-ending question as to the status of the colored man-ff the anticipated benefits to be secured by a new Constitution, shall thus be lost to my constituents, I shall not without blushing be compelled to confess to them. "These were all lost to you, because I voted, that you should not have them unless you were willing also to take with them the granting of free suffrage to the colored man; that important as these great measures were to your prosperity, I have chosen so to place them before you that unless you are willing to swallow this 'homceopathic dose,' as it has been called by the gentleman from New York [Mr. Opdyke], you shall not have the benefit of any remedies of existing evils, nor any of those important amendments we had proposed to insure the prosperity of our State in the future." Mr. RATHBUN-I move that the committee do now rise, report progress and ask leave to sit again. The question was then put in the motion of Mr. Rathbun and it was declared carried. Whereupon the committee rose and -the President resumed the Chair in Convention. Mr. ALVORD from the Committee of the Whole reported that the Committee had had under consideration the report of the Committee on the Right of Suffrage and the Qualifications to Hold Offie, had made some progress therein, but not having gone through therewith'had instructed their chairman to report that fact to the Convention and ask leave to sit again. The question was then put on granting leave, and it was declared carried. On motion of Mr. MORRIS the Convention adjourned. MONDAY, JULY 15, 1867. The Convention met at seven o clock, pursuant to adjournment. Prayer was offered by Rev. J. P. MAGEE. The Journal of Saturday was read by the SECRETARY and was approved. Mr. GRANT moved that the Convention do now adjourn, which was lost. Mr. MERRITT offered the following resolution, and asked that it be laid on the table. Resolved, That the consideration of all propositions having in view the mode or manner of subaitting the Constitution as revised, or any article or any part thereof, to the people, be postponed mttl the Constitution or proposed amendments shll have been definitely acted upon by the Convention and prepared for submission. Which was laid on the table. Mr. WALES offered the following preamble and resolutions which he requested be laid on the table and printed: WHEREAS, The President and Vice-President of the United States are elected by a board of electors, the members of which are apportioned among the respective States; and WHEREAS, The part of said board of electors apportioned to each State respectively, is elected or appointed by each State in accordance with its own rule.or law; and WHEREAS, The Senators of the United States are appointed by the Legislature of the respective States; and WHEREAS, The Members of the House of Representatives of the United States are elected by the voters of single districts, into which the respective States are divided; and, WHEREAS, The Congress of the United States acts reciprocally upon and for the several States respectively, and upon them all collectively; and, WHEREAS, The Executive and Legislature of each State are, for certain purposes, agents of the United States, especially in time of war, in raising clothing, forwarding and paying troops; now, therefore, Resolved, That in the election of the Board of Electors, and of the Members of the House of Representatives, and in'the election of the Governor and Lieutenant-Governor, and the Legislature of the respective States, a uniform system of suffrage ought to prevail; and be it further Resolved, That the standing Committee on the Right of Suffrage be instructed to inquire into the expediency of authorizing, by Constitutional provision, the Legislature of the State to accept such uniform system of suffrage, when such system shall have been legally perfected and promulgated by the general government; and be it further Resolved, That the Secretary of this Convention be requested to send or cause to be sent a copy of this preamble and of these resolutions respectively to the President of the Senate and to the Speaker of the House of Representatives of the United States, and to the Executive of each of the respective States of the Union. Which were laid on the table and ordered to be printed. The Convention then resolved itself into a Committee of the Whole on the report of the Committee on the Right of Suffrage and the Qualifications to hold Office, Mr. ALVORD of Onondaga, in the Chair. The CHAIRMAN announced the pending question to be on the substitute offered by Mr. Murphy to the substitute offered by Mr. C C. Dwight. Mr. MERRILL-I ask the indulgence of the committee for a few moments only, to state some of the reasons why I Cannot favor the proposed substitute. The proposition is to retain the first section of the article on suffrage, virtually as it now stands. Sir, I object to that section, because it is uncertain in its terms, loose in structure, containing much that is useless and omitting much that is essential-a hopeless tangle of "one year," "four months," "thirty" and "ten" days. I am a conservative to the extent of onserving all that is most excellent in the existing Constitution, but a very decided radical where there is room for 280 manifest improvement. Because a thing has existed for twenty years is no certain sign that it cannot well be bettered. 'We have indeed wasted our opportunities and rejected the teachings of experience, if we are not able to improve, in some respects, the work of our fathers. And it seems to me, sir, that the assertion made by the gentleman from Cayuga [Mr. C. C. Dwight], before a vote had here been taken, that nothing but the old article would prove acceptable to the Convention or to the people, was scarcely warranted. If that be true, the various articles should mostly have been referred to the engrossing clerks, "with power to report complete." I deny that the section in question has given satisfaction to the people of this State. I insist that the fundamental law, declaring what citizens shall be entitled to vote, should be specific, clear, and Calculated to promote a pure,intelligent, independent expression of the popular will. Under the present complicated article, not one citizen in five has been able to state the precise definition of'a lawful elector; and a man changing his residence must needs consult a lawyer, or, as was predicted by an emipent member in the Convention that framed it, "an inspector of a dozen years' experience," to ascertain his status and his rights I It has been easily evaded in some of its provisions, and has kept open "a macadamized road" to frauds. The clause allowing men to vote for certain officers only, on a thirty days' residence in the district, is ambiguous and undigested, and has called for more "judicial construction" than a whole article should demand. The four months' residence in a county is useless, and each year disfranchises far more citizens of the State than would be excluded under any new restriction the committee proposes. I object further to the proposed substitute that it does not make the buying and selling of votes a ground of challenge, and thus secure what the minority report aptly terms "a self-executing law." Without this feature, any attempted barrier against corruption would be futile. If the object of the requirement for ten days' citizenship is to prevent fraudulent naturalization, as suggested by the inquiry of the gentleman from New York, [Mr. Hutchins] which was shrewdly dodged by the gentleman from Kings [Mr. Barnard] the end would be much more fully accomplished by the thirty days' term propsed and being equally specific and well known,: as well as uniform with the election district residence, it would be equally just. For myself I shal not object to postponing tle commencement of its operations until after 1868 not desiring to work injustice to any, though having no special sympathyfor the ige class who postponed naturalization to avoid the duties of citizenship during the wa. The genteman from Onondaga fMr. Andre'L d well in g lattention to the report oW Gov. Bouck on this subject in 1846. Te a ittee f wbich he was chairman reported unwiously in favor of a sixty days' citi. zenshipad axt y' residence in the election district, ad t rept was sustained by many of the:besl ien and strongest Democrats in that Coveu o,-.Stow arguing tat it is better to eprive t vo.ter. f v his righi, than have twenty or thirty others. deprived of theirs by illegal votes," and Mr. Ruggles declaring that it would put an end to notorious frauds. In regard to the article reported by the committee of which I am a member, I deePn it proper to offer a few words of explanation and defense. The majority were not agreed on every detail. Some of the criticisms and amendments here offered are such as myself and others presented in the committee. But the principles embodied in the article, beyond the few exceptions mentioned in the minority report, were generally agreed to. In listening to the debates, I confess to a surprise that learned legal gentlemen should treat the propositions as novel and impracticable. I can only account for this, with the greatest deference, on the supposition that the gentlemen's thoughts have been so much devoted to their special duties that they have not fully examined the questions involved; as was evidenced by one eminent gentleman on Saturday, who spoke frequently of the word "white " as being in the old article, and erroneously asserted that lunatics and idiots can be excluded by law under the present Constitution. The language employed by the committee was not selected without full consideration, research and comparison of views, and it was fully indorsed on Saturday by very eminent authority [Mr. T. W. Dwight]. That which gentlemen have declared to be unsound in theory, harsh in its operations, and impracticable, stands almost word for word in thirteen existing State Constitutions of this country. I will read very brief extracts from various Constitutions, showing the classes excluded from voting. California- "No idiot or insane person, or person convicted of infamous crime," Kansas - "No person under guardianship, non fcompos mentis, or insane." Louisiana-"No pauper, no person under interdiction, nor under conviction of any crime punishable with hard labor." Maryland- '*No lunatic, or person non compos mentis." Massachusetts-" Excepting paupers and persons under guardianship." Minnesota-"No person under guardianship, or who may be non compos mentis, or insane." Nevada- "No idiot or insane person." New Hampshire — "Excepting paupers and persons excused from paying taxes at their own request." New Jersey-" No pauper, idiot, insane person." Rhode Island-" No pauper, lunatic, person non compos mentis, or person under guardianship. South Carolina-" No pauper." West Virginia-" No person of unsound mind, or a pauper." Wisconsin-" No person under guardianship, non compos mentis or insane." Now I ask gentlemen what there can be novel or impracticable in provisions like these, that have worked satisfactorily in so many States. The policy of the exclusions and extension may fairly be debated; but let us meet the principles fairly on their merits, and treat them frankly, as becomes men framing organic law. The committee undertook to, and I think did, define the classes of citizens who shall be entitled to vote. It bed 281 suffrage on adult, rational, independent manhood. nity and worth of the ballot-box by excluding It excluded idiots, lunatics, paupers, and persons paupers, leaving their legal residence at the place under guardianship (a phrase I do not like, but whence they came whenever they should again which has respectable precedents for its use), in be independent citizens. But, like many other addition to felons and those convicted of bribery. sections of this old Constitution that failed to exThen the fourth section says, as now: "Laws press the intended meaning or fully secure the end may be passed for ascertaining by proper proofs sought, this object has been thwarted; and by empthe citizens who shall be entitled to the right of tying the poor-houses just on the eve of an election suffrage hereby established." Under this section, the inmates have been " voted" at their old homes which seems to have been strangely lost sight by the partisans who happened 'to control the of in the discussion, the Legislature would, of institutions. In my own county, and other rural course, prescribe and provide for ascertaining, communities having a small percentage of pauwho shall be included in these non-voting classes. pers, and those far removed from a legal restIt seems to me, sir, that the evil results so dence, the evil has been less marked than in the elaborately set forth as likely to attend a fixed great centers of population, and the intended conand definite elective franchise, evidence a more stitutional exclusion of this class has been more lively imagination than sound judgment. The perfectly accomplished. And yet this exclusion fertile fancy of the facetious gentleman from has awakened no heroic strains over "a crusade Kings [Mr. Barnard] has depicted the ridiculous against the unfortunate poor men;" and the poor results of suppositious challenging at the polls laboring men-the bone and sinew of the Stateof a certain bail-bond signer, and certain persons have not felt it to be a hardship whenever their posted as "blockheads," if inspectors are "made votes were not neutralized by governed dependjudges of lunacy or idiocy." Now, sir, supposi- ents, dragged out of almshouses for that purpose. ton has no limits. Suppose the bottom falls out Has the State, then, been " to hastening ills a of Lake Erie-suppose the sea-serpent swallows prey," or has this annual exodus of "the bold the Atlantic cable-suppose, for a climax, that the peasantry" in some quarters of the State, democratic party should cease to be led by Bour- "under watchful keepers," preserved us? And boas [laughter], "who learn nothing and forget yet, sir, in full view of this plainly intended nothing." We must suppose a little good sense, exclusion of paupers by the existing Constitution, and a due regard for party interests and the public certain portions of the press have raised a hue good, to rest in the people. The law which and cry over the committee's action in remedying provides a simple method of ascertaining by what is merely a defect; and an honorable gentleproper proofs the rights of persons challenged for man has declared on this floor that he would vote felony, bribery or infamous crimes now, could against the proposed Constitution if this palpable easily be extended so as to afnply suffice for all loop-hole in the old one is corked up by substituthe committee proposes. It would be a very ting explicitness for indirection I The exclusion simple matter to present the requisite proofs to does not involve a property qualification, as has the boards of registry, and thus prevent wrangling been often charged. A man may be so poor that at the polls; or in cases not thus reached, to pre- by comparison Lazarus was a petroleum prince, scribe a few sufficient proofs for the inspectors, as he may beg from door to door, and still vote. But if suggested by the learned gentleman from Oneida to "honest poverty and a' that" (which having [Mr. T. W. Dwight]. In respect to the classes long experienced I should be the last to proscribe) excluded, a few words may be proper. It seems he adds pauperism, and withdraws to the almsto me that sentiment has run into sentimentality house, becoming too often the mere creature of his over the class called public paupers. If these governing keeper's will, I hold that his vote undependent people arb indeed the " bold peasantry" necessarily degrades the franchise. Of course which the eloquent gentleman from Ontario [Mr. there are exceptional cases where the exclusion Laphiam], drew on the poet to describe as would be unnecessary and harsh. But it is so - "their country's pride," with all restrictions, and cannot overbalance the "Which, once destroyed, can never be supplied," great abuse and injustice it prevents. The I; g [Laughter.] registry deprives many worthy citizens give up the case in advance But if they are, in of their right to vote every year; but, while sad truth, nine-tenths of them graduates of grog-guarding the purity of the ballot-box, shall gerines, wrecks from the rum shop, victims of their it for this reason be given up? As for the disaOwn vices, who for three hundred and sixty-four bled soldiers whom it is urged this exclusion days in the year have no interest in society or might effect, the chairman jf the committee has government but to be fed and clothed by its truly answered the objection. They are not, and bounty, I submit that the case is entirely differ- never should be, paupers. Whatever is needed at Why, sir, has it altogether escaped the for the comfort and support of those who cannot ttention of the acute gentlemen who speak on support themselves, is vastly less than the nation this floor with their eloquent tongues wagging owes to them. It is all "for value received," and towards the almshouses, that the existing Constitu- the receipt can never, alas! be in full I But the contemplates 'ta exclusion of this very class? It laws framed under the article could easily conProvide8 that inmates of almshouses shall not gain fine the exclusion solely to inmates of almshouses, a residence while subsisting on public charity, which would more exactly meet my views, excepttle framers of that instrument naturally taking it ing the soldiers in terms. And yet, any culpable cagranted that these people would remain in the community that permits its mutilated heroes to of their goverors until finally discharged. languish in the poor-house, should be shamefaced, s evidently was to preserve the dig. rather than sensitive, over the fact that it could 282 not put to some use its dishonored defenders, by removed from any influence of their keeper while seekipg them out on onq little day in all the weary exercising that right. I could give the history year, to vote "the right ticket l" [Laughter.] of many different individuals, who have, through So far as the lunatics and idiots are the force of unavoidable circumstances, become concerned, the sentiment has been general the recipients of public charities in these instithat they should not vote.' Some gentle- tutions, and whose previous history, show that men have urged that the terms are not sufficiently they have been an honor to their country explicit; but their use in the Constitutions as and a blessing to the world. I will detain before quoted, and the fact to which I have the committee by reciting only one instance urged the attention of the committee-that the as there has already been sufficient time proposed article does not deal in details, but fixing spent in debate on this subject, and that the classes, empowers the Legislature to prescribe the historyof the late Hon. Archibald Dixon, and provide for ascertaining who are embraced who at one time had the honor of representing therein, do not seem to warrant the objec- the county of Otsego in our Legislature, and while tion. There is not a single Constitution in this institution was under my charge was an existence where these well understood words inmate of the same, and in the mean time, early are not used simply by themselves, without any in the history of the late rebellion, held corressuch qualification as "judicially determined," or pondence with Major-General John A. Dix on the "adjudged." If it is conceded that they should not state of the country, and some of the letters then vote, let us say so. Honesty and explicitness are received were published in the county papers. better than indirection and ambiguity in defining Shall we exclude this unfortunate but frequently the electors in the organic law, and attempting to worthy class of citizens from what, with many, is dignify and render independent "the freeman's their highest ambition, and apparently their greatweapon."* The proposition to establish impartial est enjoyment-the right of the elective franchise? suffrage, and secure equal rights for equal citi- I trust not. zens, has been so fully and so ably discussed Mr. MORRIS —The debates upon negro sufthat I will not consume the time of the Con- frage have already consumed several days, and it mittee by examining it. But I could not help seems probable that some time yet will be given thinking, during the labored effort of the gentle- to its discussion, before we come to a vote upon man from Kings [Mr. Murphy] to prove the the motion before the committee. We have had inferiority of the negro race, that, according to learned dissertations upon the anatomy of the negro our democratic Constitution and the proposed and many quotations from distinguished authors, amendment submitted by the gentleman, only "a ancient and modern, to prove the inferiority of narrow neck of land," worth $250, separates the the black man to the white man, on one side, and black man from political equality with the man of on the other, to show that there is no material the most regular shin bones and approved difference except in the color of the skin. These Caucasian heels. In view of what is man- earnest and prolonged discussions show that negro * ifest destiny, those who claim that capacity for suffrage is the great exciting political question " solving problems in Euclid," and growing straight of the day; and it is for this reason that it seems hair, carries with it the custody of black men's to me eminently proper and judicious to submit rights, should end their lugubrious apprehensions the question to the people separately from of equality by singing the familiar hymn, so soon the new Constitution we are now forming. to be expurgated forever; The high character of the gentlemen constituting this Convention, and the liberal and i^white supe-ri-or-teea elevated sentiments expressed on the various Haugs whe subjects of public interest claiming their at[Laughter.] tention, indicate that the new Constitution For the people of this State will tolerate no longer will be, as a whole, so much more suited to the continuance of a wretched oligarchy of the present wants of the State than the one of 1846, skin; and will hold us unfaithful to our high that if this negro suffrage extension be omitted, trusts if we fail to brand with our disapproval all and which effects only some 11,000 blacks, there senseless and undemocratic tests of race, or color, will probably be not one of this Convention who or property. will not conscienciously and earnestly recommend Mr. EDDY- I am opposed to the exclusion of his friends to vote for its adoption. We must not public paupers from the right of the election fran- be so carried away by this question as to lose chise. Upon this branch of the subject only I sight of the important reforms in State governdesire to make a single remark. Having been ment which the new Constitution is designed charged with the superintendency of the poor in to effect, and which virtually concern the my own county for a series of years, am some- prosperity of this community. Probably the what prepared to judge as to the class of voters work of this Convention will occupy more than a that are the inmates of these charitable institu- hundred days, and the expense to the State may tions, in the rural counties of this State. exceed the appropriation already made. It is It s the case in my own, as well as unwise to run th risk of losing the results of so anyy other counties, that the different towns much labor and of expending so much money in support their own poor in the county poor-houses, vain, by incorporating in what we know to be and the paupers do not lose their residence in unobjectionable a condition for its acceptance, the towns while inmates of the poor-house, and which we well know to be highly repugnant to consequetly the only place they can vote is in many of the lectors. If the, people desire the therespecve towns, d they are, therefore, extension of the franchise to the blacks, they wi 283 vote for it, and if they do not, it is but right that they should have the opportunity of voting against it. It is not our prerogative to dictate to the people, but to represent them. No one can read the many newspapers published within and beyond the limits of this State, and fail to be convinced that the people wish and expect and demand a separate submission of the extension of negro suffrage. Mr. AXTELL - I move that the committee do now rise, report progress and ask leave to sit again. The question was put on the motion of Mr. Axtell and it was declared lost. A division being called for, it was had and the result declared, thirty in the affirmative and thirtysix in the negative. Mr. WEED-There was no quorum voting. The CHAIRMAN-The chair will request the President to resume his seat. Whereupon the President resumed the chair in Convention. Mr. ALVORD, from the Committee of the Whole, reported that upon a division in the committee having in charge the report of the Committee on the Right of Suffrage and the Qualifications to hold Office, it was found that there was no quorum present. The PRESIDENT announced the fact as reported. Mr. GREELEY-I ask a call of the roll. Mr. WEED-I move that the Convention do now adjourn. The question was then put on the motion of Mr. Weed, and it was declared carried. So the Convention stood adjourned. TUESDAY, July 16, 1867. The Convention met at 11 o'clock A. M. Prayer was-offered by Rev. J. P. MAGEE. The Journal of yesterday was read by the SECRETARY, and approved. Mr. GERRY presented a proposed plan for the government of cities, by a member of the New York bar. Which was referred to the Committee On Cities, their Organization, etc. Mr. GOULD presented a petition from seventytwo citizens of Claverack, in the county of Columbia, for a provision restraining the Legislature from granting aid to sectarian institutions. Which was referred to the Committee on the Powers and Duties of the Legislature. Mr. HARRIS presented a petition from the Long Island Baptist Association, asking for the "corporation of a clause in the Constitution, prohibiting the donation of public money to sectarian associations. Which was referred to the Committee on the Powers and Duties of the Legislature. Mr. HARRIS also presented two petitions from the inhabitants of the county of Albany asking for the incorporation of a clause in the Constitulta prohibiting the donation of public money to setarian associations. "Which was referred to the Committee on the Pwers and Duties of the Legislature. Mr. GROSS presented twenty-six petitions from the citizens of New York protesting against prohibitory legislation and in favor of general laws regulating traffic in fermented liquors and wines. Which was referred to the Committee on Adulterated Liquors. Mr. CURTIS presented a petition from Mrs. Horace Greeley and other citizens of Westchester county, asking for equal suffrage for men and women. Which was referred to the Committee of the Whole. Mr. FOLGER presented a memorial from Emily P. Collins, of Rochester, asking that women have the privilege of voting; that the question be submitted in 1869, and that the privilege of voting to males and females be to those who can read and write. Which was referred to the Committee of the Whole. Mr. BALLARD presented the petition of one hundred and seventy citizens of Cortland county, asking for a constitutional prohibition' against the sale of intoxicating liquors as a beverage. Which was referred to the Committee on Adulterated Liquors. The PRESIDENT presented a communication from the Auditor of the Canal Department in answer to a resolution of the Convention adopted July 9th in reference to the amounts paid contractors, etc. Which was referred to the Committee on Canals, and ordered to be printed. The PRESIDENT also presented a communication from the Commissioners of the Land Office, in answer to a resolution of the Convention adopted June 18th, in reference to the salt reservations. Which was referred to the Committee on the Salt Springs of the State, and ordered to be printed. Mr. MERRITT called up the resolution offered by him yesterday. The SECRETARY proceeded to read the resolution as follows: Resolved, That the consideration of all propositions having in view the mode or manner of submitting the Constitution as revised, or any article or any part thereof, to the people, be postponed until the Constitution or proposed amendments shall have been definitely acted upon by the Convention, and prepared for submission. Mr. MERRITT-My object in offering this resolution is to eliminate from the discussions any. thing that is a mere matter of expediency. I know very well that there is at the present time pending before the Committee of the Whole a question pertinent to the mode and manner of submttting propositions to the people. I presume that perhaps the Convention may not have fully considered this question. I therefore propose to call up this resolution for consideration to-morrow, and until that time I ask that it be laid on the table. The resolution was laid on the table. Mr. S. TOWNSEND called up the resolntion offered by him on the 19th of June. The SECRETARY proceeded to read the resalution as follows: 284 eolvw That Committee No. 2 on the Legis -;. The number of such schools which have be. lature, its Organization, etc., be requested to take come free, and the year in which they became under consideration and report to this body, upon free. the policy of providing that the House of As- 8. The ratio of increase or decrease, in attend. sembly consist of one hundred members, to be ance upon such schools in municipal corporations, elected yearly from singld districts- that the as have been made free, to the whole number of Senate consists of eight members, one elected children entitled to attend such schools. frpm each Judicial District, for the term of eight And further, that the Superintendent be reyears, one each year on the general ticket; that quested to report to the Convention, how soon lie the sole power of initiating and enacting laws be can probably make the above statement. vested in the Assembly —that the legislative Mr. ALVORD -For the purpose of having power of the Senate shall consist of considering the business of this Convention proceed correctly, and revising such acts as may be passed by the I would ask whether it is not necessary to make Assembly. That the salary of Senators be $5,000 a motion to take this resolution from the table. and of Assemblymen $1,000 per annum. The PRESIDENT - The Chair does not underMr. S. TOWNSEND- I wish merely to say, stand it was tabled by a vote. Mr. President, that I allowed this resolution to lie Mr. W. C. BROWN -It was tabled on my on the table for the length of time it has, in hope motion. that some other propositions, equally or more The question was then put on the motion of definite, would be presented to the Constitution, Mr. Barto, to take up the resolution, and it was which would meet my approval more than the declared carried. one I hastily threw out at the time; but as Mr. McDONALD-I move that the resolution be -there has been none that I remember, I now referred to the Committee on Education and the move that the resolution be referred to the Com- funds relating thereto. In regard to that I have mittee on the Organization of the Legislature. I this to say: Yesterday I met the Superintendent also take the liberty to state and I believe the of Public Instruction, and he stated to me that majority of the members on this floor will agree to get the information required by the resolution with me that this question is one of the most would take at least six months; that it required important that will come before the Convention a reference to every school-district and every for consideration. We have already been engaged town clerk's office; that it was not in his office at for some time in a discussion of a question called all, and he could not furnish it. I therefore the suffrage question, which only concerns about move the reference to the Committee on Educaone per cent of the population of the State, but tion, in order that we may see whether the this question concerns every individual, man, statement be correct. They can go to the woman and child in the State. The appeal comes superintendent and see what they can get to us from the people to endeavor to do some- from him, and whatever information the thing to raise the character of legislation in this gentleman from Tompkins [Mr. Barto] can get, *State; and I hope therefore this resolution may I am very desirous and willing he should have, be referred, and that at least some effort will be but I object to these continual resolutions for inmade to accomplish so desirable an object. formation about which we know nothing. You Mr. BARTO moved to take up the resolution will find by a reference to the clerk's desk that a offered by him on Wednesday last. great many accounts are returned to this ConvenThe SECRETARY proceeded to read the reso- tion for the information we have got. How lution as follows: much it amounts to I do not know. How Resolved, That the Superintendent of Public many county clerks have sent in bills I do not Instruction be requested to prepare, as soon as know. It ray be a question whether possible, and communicate to this Convention, a the information is worth the cost. If this resotabular statement showing: lution gods out it compels the Superintendent of 1. The whole number of children in each county Public Instruction to send to the various towns in the State entitled to attend common schools and school-districts, and by the time he gets the each year since 1.840. information it maybe that we will have adjourned, 2. The number of children attending such and then the information will do us no good. I schools in the several counties each year since am not opposed to any information that can be 1840, and the number not attending. obtained where the cost is not greater than the 3. The amount of taxation imposed upon the benefit that may accrue, and for the purpose of people in the several counties of the State for finding out whether we can get this information school purposes in each year since 1840, State, at all in time to do any good, and second, what county, town, and municipal tax, each stated sep- it will cost, I move the reference that I do. arately, and the percentae each of State, county, Mr. CURTIS-I hope this reference will not be town and municipal tax upon the amount of taxa- made by the Convention. The information sought ble property. by the gentleman from Tompkins [Mr. Barto] will 4. The ratio of taxation to the whole number undoubtedly employ the Superintendent of the Deof childre entited to attend common schools partment of Instruction for more than a year achyear since 840. There is no doubt whatever, but what the gentle5. The ratio of taxation to the number actually man from Ontario [Mr. McDonald] states, is the in attendance in each yearsince 1840. case, I therefore, hope sir, that the resolution 6. The ratio of increae or decrease in the at- will be referred to the department which is alone teracdue upon shools in eah county, as taxation in possession of the information, and that that dehas been increased. partment will report directly to the Convention, 285 and I trust the question will not be referred to the Committee on Education. Mr: BARTO- If the Superintendent of Public Instruction reports to this Convention that he is unable to furnish the information required I am content, but I certainly think the resolution ought to go to him. that he may send us a report if he possibly can; if not let him state the reasons why he cannot give the information. Mr. FERRY - If pertinent to this inquiry I will state what is perhaps unknown to many members of this Convention, that bills are accumulating every day, to be provided for by this Convention, from various clerks and other officers throughout the State, who have performed labor in response to inquiries similar to the one in question. I merely make the suggestion without deciding in this case whether the information is proper or not, but I think it would be well that the Convention should know what consequence will follow this action, and I would submit it generally to the consideration of the member himself who moved this resolution, whether the information sought for would be worth the expense incurred. Mr. WEED-I had supposed, Mr. President, that the educational interests of this State were of some importance-so important that an anticipated cost of a few dollars for information, would not deter this Convention from getting it for their own information in judging upon this question. It seems to me that the members of this Convention would not and cannot take into consideration such a thought. Every member upon this floor should understand and be informed of many of the facts asked for by this resolution. The opposition made by the gentleman from Ontario [Mr. McDonald] does not seem to me to be sound, for the reason that the last resolution of this series asks the superintendent to report how long it would take him to furnish what information he has at his own office. It seems to me when we get that report it will be time enough to give the few dollars called for If the facts desired, will take so much time in collecting them that they will not be here to answer the purpose desired, then, it will be time enough for us to say we do not wish them. It seems to me that the information asked for here should be given by the Superintendent of Public Instruction, and I do not believe that that officer is desirous of hiding from the members of this Convention the statistics or the facts connected with his office. If he is (and I say again I do not believe he is), it would be only a greater reason for our calling for them and insist"ng upon them. Mr. W. C. BROWN-The resolution which we have under consideration does not limit the Superl"tendent of Public Instruction for giving us simply the amount of information which he can find in his own office, but it requires him to get that antfrmation in the best way he can without any limit of expense, and from all sources in the State, Bnd the Legislature will, of course, be called upon Ir ian appropriation to pay the expenses. Now, b.do not desire to prevent any information being niamed for the use of this Convention, which any member of the: Oouvention deems important, but I would like to limit it to some extent, and I would offer, therefore, this amendment to be added at the end of the resolution, "or so much of said information as can be obtained by ah examination of the records in his office, in the Comptroller's office, and in the other public offices of the city of Albany." If the gentleman wants the resolution passed with that addition, I am willing to go so far: I think we ought not to go further than this without further consideration. Mr. McDONALD- If the. gentleman from Tompkins [Mr. Barto] will accept the amendment I will withdraw my motion. Mr. BARTO -I cannot accept the amendment. Mr. McDONALD - I then insist on my motion. Mr. KINNEY - I cannot see any propriety in referring this resolution to the Committee on Education. It seems to me such a reference will do no gobd. The Committee on Education can give us no information; then, why refer it to that committee? If the inquiry is an improper one then let us vote down the resolution but not evade it. in this way by referring it to a committee which has not in its possession any of the subject-matters we are inquiring for. I do not propose to discuss the propriety of the inquiry at all, but simply the propriety of its reference to the Committee on Education, which seems to me to be very improper indeed. Mr. CLINTON-As some allusion has been made to the action of the Superintendent of Public Instruction in reference to this resolution, I think it proper for me to remark tiat the superintendent is a frank, plain spoken, korough going man, that he is, in my judgment, a good officer, and I have no doubt that he will take pleasure in furnishing this Convention with any and every information which it is within his power to afford. I think -sir, that with reference to this very resolution, he remarked to me the other day, that its call for information extended over a period of time so great that there was no record in his office from which he could draw the material for an answer, and he expressed also his desire (I think that is not too strong a word), to furnish to the Convention the information asked for by this resolution, which it was within his power to furnish. It is also said that it will take six months or a year for him.to collect, from sources scattered all over the State, the substance of this information. It may be so, and I take the liberty of suggesting that it would perhaps be proper for us in the Convention, to request him to furnish all the information called for by the resolution which he can furnish authentically, within some limited time, be it a month or be it two months. That is my impression with reference to this matter, and I am also satisfied, from conversation with my friend the Chairman of the Committee on Education that it is of no use whatever, and will result id no good to refer it to that committee. My impression is, that, if we adopt this resolution at all, we had better adopt it with the amendment which I have suggested, and refer it diretly to the superintendent. Mr. MoDONALD -In making this motion I have simply done what 1 think ought to have been done in a great many other cases. It ia 286 easy enough for an individual, who is ignorant in the office of the Superintendent of Public of any fact, to get up and ask this Con- Instruction, and another, and larger portion vention to authorize investigation and order can be obtained from the Comptroller's office, certain infoAnation, that he may wish to have. and from the office of the superintendent of That information may be nearly or very easily schools in the city of Albaiy. A very small part within his reach, and yet the order for this same of the information called for can be obtained in information may cost this State a great many the public offices of the city of Albany. thousand dollars. I understand from clerks in Mr. BA*RTO -I am very much surprised that counties were such orders have been made, that any gentleman in the Convention should oppose in my own county it would cost $300 and in the my resolution, asking information of the Superin. county of Erie i; would cost $1.900 (I am now tendent of Public Instruction. I am satisfied speaking only from information), and in other that there is nothing asked for in the resolu. counties to about the same amount. As the Chair- tion that he cannot answer in a short time; and man on the Committee on Contingent Expenses I am informed by those better acquainted [Mr. Ferry] has told you, these bills have already with the departments than I, that an active begun to arrive. We are getting the first install- clerk can collect all the information'in some ten ment, and here only two or three days ago or twenty days. As to the importance of the inwe refused to give to the reporters who are as formation, I need only say tnat the department is much entitled to it as anybody can be, a certain one upon which the Legislature has conferred amount of stationery, to the amount of thirty dol- more power than any other State office. And lars each, because we had not the power. Shall we that the Legislature is aggregating to this depart. go into the principle of stopping at the spigot, and mnent more and more power until it is about to obletting out at the bung-hole? Is that the principle tain control over the entire educational interests the gentleman wants to pursue? I am not.in favor of the State. Is it right to have all this despotic of that principle. I am in favor of every kind of in. power conferred upon a single State officer, a mere formation that can be obtained, which is worth the creature of the legislature,without any inquiry that cost, and I shall suppose that any information is will show to us its working and efficiency. Proworth the cost untilitisprovento the contrary. I positions are made here to discontinue the have made this motion simply from the conviction office and return the duties of the office to that thisaction has already been too long delayed. the Secretary of State from whom it was The gentleman from Richmond [Mr. Curtis] says taken. Is it right that the millions raised every the Convention can go to the Superintendent of year by taxation should go through this departPublic Instruction and inquire for themselves. I ment and no inquiry made as to whether it is think his room would be quite full when we all doing the good it is claimed. How are we to base got there. I propose that we go there in the our action without information? How can we form and person of a committee, and to find out know what to do without questions are answered whether he can furnish us this information showing what has been and what has not been in time to do us any good; and I am in favor accomplished. I hope the Convention will send of.all the information he.will be able to give the resolution to the Superintendent of Pubus. The amendment of the gentleman from lie Instruction. If he is enable to answer it in St. Lawrence [Mr. W. C. Brown] will effect time to do us any good let him say so-let him the same object by its limitation, as by it the state what he can give us and what he cannot. Superintendent of Public Instruction is only to But let the resolution just as it is drawn go to furnish what can be found in the various public him, and after his answer the Convention can offices, in the various departments we have in the modify the inquiry if it deems best. city of Albany, but the gentleman from Tomp- Mr. CONGER-I wish to give the reasons kins [Mr. Barto] is unwilling to accept it, and that very briefly, why I favor the amendment of the is the only reason I have for being unwilling to gentleman from St. Lawrence [Mr. W. C. Brown]. yield;;but as a vote on the amendment offered by If the gentleman who offered this resolution, or the gentleman from St. Lawrence, will effect the any other gentleman in this Convention, would same object and will allow the Convention to pass refer to the records of the State and show that upon the question which I intend to raise and will there had ever been prepared any series of tables only require the superintendent to furnish such starting with the year 1840, giving the average, information as can be obtained in the city of which is asked here, in two important particuAlbany, and in order to bring this thing to a test; lars, first, the ratio of taxation to the whole I will withdraw my motion and let the Convention number of children entitled to attend the common come directly to the question on the.amendment schools in each year since 1840, next the ratio of the gentleman from St. Lawrence [Mr. W. C. of taxation to the number actually in attendance Brown]. each year since 1840,-I say, if it could be Mr. W. C. BROWN —I have not the resolution shown that any such calculation had ever before me, and I don't know precisely how it ends. been prepared, or if any such tabulation I will offer my amendment so it will read in this had been made and printed for the benefit of way: "'Or so much of said information as can be the State, then I concede to the gentleman obtained by an examination of the records in the who introduced this resolution that it would offioe of the Superintendent, of Public Instruc. be very easy for the Superintendent of Public tion, in the Comptroller's office, and in other Education to complete that calculation, and to give publi toffices in the city of Albany." I under- the average during the years in which he nay snd that a very small portion of the information have had charge of the department. Idonot equired by the resolution can be obtained know whether. any such tables have ever been 287 prepared, or ever have been printed, but I think it would have been wise if it had been shown to this Convention, in advance of asking from the Superintendent of Public Instruction, such an onerous work as this, that there had been some attempt, by some of his predecessors, in the Secretary of State's office, to commence the work which he might be properly called upon to finish. When you ask the Auditor of the Canal Department to furnish you statistics, going back to the year 1820, it is a very easy matter for him to send to this Convention a copy of the work which has already been prepared and probably one hundred times printed for the information of the people of this State. But in this call it is entirely new and I think it is rather ungenerous for the Convention to press upon the Superintendent of Public Instruction, an inquiry of this magnitude. To be sure, he may send m his reply, and say that he has no records in his office by which he can go back to 1840, and he will be able to tell you, as no doubt the truth is, that for many years there was no such thing as any distinction between the children entitled to attend school, and the number of children actually in school and there is no possibility of giving you the ratio of the average taxation as to those numbers, in the year 1840. In saying so much I hope the gentleman who introduced this resolution will not imagine for a moment that I am opposed to the inquiry, but after the information from the Superintendent of Public Instruction, that it would be impossible within anything like a month, to furnish to the Convention such a mass of information as this, it seems to me to be reasonable aud right in this Convention, at least to make some modification of a resolution of such vast scope and sweep, and I think this amendment is very proper as a matter of public duty and public interest, and it we are to get any information at all, we should get it within a reasonable time, so that it may come before the Committee on Education in time to be properly digested, and when the opinion is expressed by my honorable friend who introduced this resolution [Mr. Barto] that the Superintendent of Public Instruction is clothed with so much power by a recent legislature, that we therefore should weight his shoulders with the onerous duty of obtaining information from all these offices, I think it is rather adding unnecessary labors to his already multiplied duties. I therefore desire briefly to explain why I think the Convention should exercise a reasonable courtesy to a State officer situated as this officer is, and not leave the matter in the form of an imperative demand for so much impossible and impracticable nformation, but leave him to give us all he has in 1s power to give from the documents within his command. idr. LARREMORE - One of the objections urged against the adoption of this resolution, iefs to be, that it will involve the expenditure iraoey toget the required information. I dee to call the attention of the gentleman from tho g [Mr. Ferry] to a provision in the act au-.pu ting this Convention to assemble: "and all nalch ocers, boards and commissiaos shall ush such Convention with all such informa tion, papers, statements, books or other public documents in their possession, as the said Convention shall order or require for its use, from time to time, while in session:" I desire this information, as a member of the Committee on Education, so far as the Superintendent of Public Instruction can furnish it. We ought to know how much our public education costs us, and if the Convention does require an impossibility from the officer spoken of, in calling for any information he has not in his possession, he can reply he cannot get it, and he can state his reasons, and that, I understand, is the purport of the resolution. Mr. FERRY-I understand that the clause which the gentleman has read refers tnore particularly to those officers who have salaried offices. I suppose that this clause is drawn with reference to the public officers throughout the State, and especially those who are paid by a salary. I confess, I did not apprehend there was to be any charges following inquiries made throughout the State, especially from the several county clerks, etc.. but I find that the charges are sought to be upheld in this way. Where an inquiry was made from any public officer in the State, where the office is one that is paid by a salary, for them to furnish information in their office, they would not attempt to make any charge. But it is said they are obliged to send abroad to others to procure the information, and various searches have to be made, and the clerks claim compensation for making these searches; bills are already sent in here for payment, and we shall have to pass upon this matter. I do not wish to decide, I am not prepared to decide whether this information is necessary or not. I simply state this information for the benefit of all the members of the Convention that they may judge what is better to do under the circumstances. Mr. LARRE[ORE-I desire to ask the gentleman from Otsego, [Mr. Ferry] whether the Superintendent of Public Instruction is not a public officer, and whether his salary is not paid from the public treasury so as to bring him within the purview of this section. Mr. FERRY-I supposed I had distinctly stated that so far as the Superintendent of Public Instruction had it in his power to furnish information himself, no charge would be made, but if he has to send throughout the State to various other officers or individuals, then those persons will bring their claims against the Convention. Mr. ALVORD -I think sir, there is a very easy way in which'this whole question can be settled without objection from any member of the Convention. I move to amend the original resolution by inserting after the word " Superintendent 't last occurring, the words "before he proceeds to discharge the duty required by this resolution." Mr. BARTO-I accept that amendment. The CHAIR announced that the question was upon the pending amendment offered by Mr. W. C. Brown. Mr. W. C. BROWN-I will accept the amendment offered by the gentleman from Onondaga [Mr. Alvord]. The CHAIR announced the question to bee pon the resolution as amended 288 Mr. McDONALD - I move to amend the reso-:btion further by adding at the end of the resoluton the words, "and what portion of the information aked for can be obtained from the public officers of the State in this city, and what portion e will be compelled to obtain by inquiry from other oicer and how much will be the probable cost of obtaining such information from such other publ officers not in this city. Mr. BARTO -* I accept that amendment also. The question-was then put upon the resolution as amended, and it was declared adopted. Mr. DEVELIN offered the following resolution: Resolved, That the comptroller of the city of New York be requested to furnish this Convention with atetatment of the amounts paid by him r his predecessors in office, to charitable institutios including juvenile asylums, and houses of refuge since the year 1847, with the names of the institutions respectively, to which such amounts have been paid and the sum paid to each. Which was laid over under the rule. Mr. STRATTON offered the following resolution. -Resolved, That the comptroller of the city of New York, be, and he is hereby instructed, to make full report to this Convention of the net sums annually received from the several sou'rces herein enumerated, and applied through the sinking fund for the redemption of the city debt. during the years from 1847 to 1866, inclusive; and a statement showing the expenses incurred in each of said years in granting such licenses, collecting such fees, and in legal efforts to enforce payment or collect penalties for noncompliance to law or ordinance in each of such cases; whether such expenses were allowed by the mayor and common council of the city, or by the board of supervisors of the county, namely: 1. For licenses to pawnbrokers, and to dealers in secondhand furniture, metals and clothes. 2. For licenses for hackney coaches and drivers. 3. For fees of market privileges and market rents. 4. For mayoralty fees. 5. For fines and penalties. -6. For fees and fines collected by clerks of 1 For tavern and excise licenses. Which was laid over under the rule. Mr. BELL offered the following resolution. ieslvd } That the Committee on State Prisons, etc., be authorized to send for persons and papers o enal the to understand more fully the operatins and abuses of the prison system, that suitable remees maybe pvided by this Convention. Which was adopted.:Mr D AE offered the following resolution: *Rsoe_, That al laws relatingto the excise on ntoxicating drinks, and upon the regulation or observane of holidays: of the week, month or yar, halBg e genal in their provisions, and * eqa rative throughout the State. Which was referrod to the Committee on the wes6and XSties of cthe Legislature. d:MrAfltei a& lle^d up t resolution offered by himself, as follows: t pilg 'tl* thoe diaulssion of the efpor f Othe e tte onutffvag%,ete in the Committee of the Whole, the Convention will hold evening sessions, commencing.at 74 o'clock. Mr. ALVORD —I move that, for the present, that resolution do lie on the table. Mr. BELL - On that I call for the ayes and noes. A sufficient number seconding the call, the ayes and noes were ordered. The question was then put on the motion of Mr. Alvord, to lay the resolution on the table, and it was lost by the following vote: Ayes-Messrs. C. L. Allen, N. M. Allen,'Alvord, Armstrong, Axtell, Baker, Barnard, Barto, Bowen, Cassidy, Champlain, Clark, Clinton, Cochran, Colahan, Comstock, Corning, Curtis, Daly, Develin, 'T. W. Dwight, Endress, Evarts, Ferry, Fowler, Francis, Goodrich, Hatch, Harris, Hardenburgl, Hitchman, Kernan, Ketcham, Krum, Larremore, Law, Magee, Mattice, McDqnald, Monell, More, Morris, Murphy, Opdyke, Paige, Pond, Robertson, Roy, A. D. Russell, Seymour, Schell, Schoonmaker, Schumaker, Silvester, Strong, Tappan, M. I. Townsend, S. Townsend, Van Campen, Verplanck, Weed-61. Noes-Messrs. A. F. Allen, Andrews, Archer, Ballard, Barker, Beadle, Beckwith, Bell, Bickford, E. P. Brooks, E. A. Brown, W. C. Brown, Carpenter, Case, Cheritree, Chesebro,. Church, Cooke, Duganne, C. C. Dwight, Eddy, Ely, Flagler, Folger, Frank, Gerry, Grant, Graves, Greeley, Gross, Hadley, Hale, Hammond, Hand, Hitchcock, Houston, Huntington, Hutchins, Jarvis, Kinney, Landon, Lapham, A. Lawrence, M. H. Lawrence, Lee, Lowroy, Ludington, Merrill, Merritt, Merwin, Miller, C. E. Parker, Potter, President, Prosser, Rathbun, Reynolds, Rolfe, Root, Rumsey, L. W. Russell, Seaver, Sheldon, Sherman, Smith, Stratton, Tucker, Van Cott, Wakeman, Wales, Williams71. Mr. SHERMAN offered the following amendment to the resolution. Add thereto the following: "Such sessions to be for debate only in Committee of the Whole, on the subject now pending before it." Mr. BELL -I do not see that the amendment changes the terms of the resolution, which were to confine the proposed evening session to the discussion of the report of the Committee on the Right of Suffrage, and under which, should we reach the termination of this debate this afternoon, the resolution would be inoperative; but as the amendment does not alter the terms of the resolution, I will accept it. Mr. ALVORD -The reason of my moving that the resolution be laid on the table was for the purpose of avoiding any debate in regard to the question. It seems to me if gentlemen will reflect for a moment on the position we / occupy in reference to our business here, they will not now vote for this resolution. Whenever any of the committees of this Convention, which are charged with certain duties, shall sumit areport to this Convention, or shall be ready to submit a report, it wi be well enough then to get t the discus sion of this question as soon aspossible. t in the an th e, we are employg urelit in the evenint in dargit g our dutie s in 289 committees, and are thus better engaged than we could be listening to debate on this question. It seems to me eminently proper that until the time shall arrive when there will be further business prepared for us by committees of the Convention, we should not thus hurry in regard to this matter. For this reason and this reason only, I am against evening sessions. There are quite a number of committees and sub-committees who are compelled to hold their sessions outside the sessions of this Convention and those meetings take a large amount of time. In the case of the committees, of which I am a member, my labors are very unerous, so much so that I am compelled to be employed from four o'clock in the afternoon until twelve o'clock at night, and if I am not authorized so to do, I feel that I shall have to do work of that kind in the small hours of the morning, which are, at least, required for sleep. I, therefore, hope, while I shall be perfectly willing that evening sessions may be had for proceedings in Committee of the Whole, or that our sessions shall be lengthened out when the necessity exists, that we shall not now so tie ourselves up in reference to the business we must do in committee as to nass this resolution. Mr. KERNAN - I concur fully with what the gentleman from Onondaga [Mr. Alvord], has said. The important thing for the successful progress of this Convention, it seems to me is, that the committees shall have an opportunity to deliberate upon, and perfect the propositions which they shall report; and until they do so, we have not a great deal to do, probably, in the Convention. The committee to which I belong is holding meetings in the morning and again in the evening and they desire to continue to do so. It is a large committee and whenever any committee is ready to report, this Convention has it in its power to shorten this debate upon the subject now before it. I think that for the present, one session a day to debate the report of the Committee on the Right of Suffrage is as much as can be profitably spent. We had better allow gentlemen of the committee to meet and consult and perfect their work in the evening, as I believe they are very generally doing it. Mr. REYNOLDS -I voted against the motion to lay the resolution of the gentleman from Jefferson [Mr. Bell] on the table, for the reason that I supposed the holding of evening sessions would tend to shorten the labors of this Convention, by hastening the conclusion of this debate. But if it is true that the evenings are required by committees, who have a large amount of labor to perform, then I shall vote against the resolution. Having myself no committee work to perform, it is entirely immaterial to me individually, but I Should feel bound to vote so as to accommodate those gentlemen who hold the laboring oar in this Convention. Mr. BELL-I do not wish, of course, to embarrass the action of committees; neither do I Wish to protract our sessions beyond a necessary oegth. I offered this resolution for the purpose rofacilitating and shortening the session of this tC vention. It is stated by several committees tlat they will be ready to report as soon as s question shall be disposed of by the 37 Convention; but during the long discussions that this question is likely to elicit, they of course, see no particular object for hastening their reports. It will occur to every one, from what we have seen during the discussion on this subject, that many gentlemen are still prepared to give their views on it, and that they have, as far as can be ascertained without hearing from them, prepared themselves to speak. It was for the purpose of enabling them to express their views, and of saying here what they desire, that I proposed evening sessions. In regard to the work of the committees, sir, this resolution does not interfere with their afternoon work. It is known that most of committee work is done in the afternoon-that committees meet mainly in the morning or afternoon, and with the exception of a few sub-committees, I do not know of any that hold evening sessions. In fact, it can be so arranged that committees may do all their word in the afternoon. It must be apparent that this Convention will not hasten its labors as it might do without holding evening sessions. I hope, therefore, that the resolution may prevail and that gentlemen may have an opportunity of fully expressing themselves on this subject. The terms of the resolution only require that evening sessions should be held during the pendency of the debate on this particular question in Committee of the Whole. Whenever this debate terminates, of course, the operation of the resolution will be terminated by its own provisions. Let us try it during the further debate on this question, and then, if it does not work well, of course, we can abandon it. Mr. GREELEY - I desire to hear the resolution read as it now stands. The SECRETARY proceeded to read the resolution. Mr. GREELEY-I object to the resolution, because I am satisfied from the experience we had here last night, that it will accomplish no good end. Let this body advertise that no votes will be taken, and you will not have one-half of the members present, and gentlemen will decline to speak, as a gentleman last night did, because there was a want of a quorum, and your meetings will amount to nothing. It seems to me that most of our committees might well have reported before this time. I believe many of them are ready to report, and are about to do so, and therefore I move to amend the resolution by striking out, all after the word " Resolved, " and inserting in place thereof, " That from and after Monday next, this Convention will meetdaily at 9 o'clock A. M." I think it would be far better to have our debates in the morning, so that they may be reported and printed in the papers of the next morning, and that would give us time in the evening for committees. I trust most of the committees will report by next Monday,except one or two of the most important; and by meeting then at nine o'clock we can accomplish a good day's work, and not merely in talking but voting. Mr. TAPPEN - I am at present opposed to any action at this Convention looking toward the holding of any extra sessions during the day or evening. I have found that my most profitable hours have been spent in the performance of com 290 mittee work. It is there that we are obliged to m population, not dividing counties, in each of learn the details of the business for which we are which three members of assembly having the assembled. There we are to become familiar with largest number of votes shall be declared elected, the features of the institutions of this State upon but no elector shall vote for more than two mem. which this Convention is to pass, and judging bers; the Legislature to provide by law for the from the fate that seems to have met the report of case of a tie between the two highest among the the Committee on the Right of Suffrage, it seems minority. to me that other standing committees had better Which was referred to the Committee on the take some time in studying the subjects intrusted Legislature, its Organization, etc. to them. I judge from the debate which has been The Convention then resolved itself into a Corn had in this Convention on the report of that cor- mittee of the Whole on the report of the Commit. mittee, that the committee hurried through with tee on the Right of Suffrage and the Qualifications the business instead of properly considering it. to Hold Office; Mr. ALVORD, of Onondaga, in Therefore, I hope this Convention will take the chair. abundant time for the performance of its duties The CHAIRMAN announced the pending ques. in committees, and for that reason, I am opposed tion to be on the substitute offered by Mr. Murphy for the present to any meeting of the Convention to the substitute offered by Mr. C. C. Dwight, earlier than 11 o'clock. which had been accepted by Mr. Folger in lieu of Mr. BARTO - I move to amend the amendment the amendment offered by him. of the gentleman from Westchester [Mr. Greeley], Mr. GERRY-Mr. Chairmanby substituting the hour of ten o'clock instead of The CHAIRMAN-The gentleman from Clin. nine. ton [Mr. Axtell] has the floor. The question was then put on the amendment of Mr. AXTELL -I propose to discuss very Mr. Barto, and it was declared lost. briefly the question which is before this house The question was then put on the substitute on the amendment of the gentleman from Kings offered by Mr. Greeley, and it was declared lost. [Mr. Murphy]. I have thought that this discusMr. SILVESTER-I am very much in favor of sion has been forced upon us prematurely, with expediting the business of this Convention, and all due respect to the gentleman, that it was for that reason I voted to lay the resolution of an untimely amendment-the discussion of the the gentleman from Jefferson [Mr. Bell] on the proposition of submitting something before we table. I understand the fact to be, as was stated had anything to submit. I am, however, by the gentleman from Onondaga [Mr Alvord], against the amendment for this reason; first, that very many committees are occupied very because I wish this question closed. I wish this laboriously in the discharge of their duties, and question in regard to the rights and privileges of that the time which can be most profit- the negro closed. It has been a subject of discusably occupied by them is in the evening. sion for many years. The distinguished gentleman If we intrench upon that time, and force them to who was on the floor of this House by the courtake other hours for the discharge of these duties, tesy of the Convention the other day [Chief Justice it will inevitably result in the postponement of Chase], remarked to me, while the gentleman their reports to a later day than the day that from Kings was advocating his anti.democratic their reports could be presented if they can have proposition that twenty.-two years ago he the evenings to perform their work. I trust, sir, advocated the proposition of admitting negroes to that the resolution will not be adopted, and that the elective franchise on the same terms with the our sessions will remain as they have done white man. Twenty-two years have rolled by until some of the committees are ready to with all their mighty events, and still this question report and then I am willing for one, as a member in one of its forms and aspects is before us. If of the Convention, to commence our sessions in the this Convention shall strike the distinction of color morning at nine o'clock or ten o'clock, and continue from the Constitution, if the members of until three, and to have an evening session as this Convention of all parties, shall say, towell, if necessary. But as long as there is no day, that this proposition shall go down to report from any other committee before the Con- the people in the body of the Constitution, vention, to be considered, it seems to me that the the question is closed. There will be no further plan of holding evening sessions will only be a discussion of the subject of negro rights and negro premium upon additional speech making. privileges in this State. Are gentlemen willing Mr. CASE-I offer the following amendment: to do this? There has been a vast amount of disStrike out "half-past seven o'clock" and insert cussion that I have heard by gentlemen of that "four o'clock." political faith, and a frequent expression of their Mr. TAPPEN-I move to lay the whole sub. wish and desire that this subject should be closed. ject on the table. Now, I ask them to show their sincerity in this Mr. BELL-I rise to a point of order. Is it matter. I assume that they are sincere, and do wish now in order to move to lay on the table after the the question closed. The gentleman must know vote having been taken? that if this proposition is placed in the body of the The PRESIDENT-The Chair understands it Constitution, and the proposition of the gentleman to be a different proposition. from Kings [Mr. Murphy] does not prevail, and if The question was then put on the motion of it does not, prevail by the common consent of all Mr. Tappep, and it was declared carried. parties there will be no further political issue on this Mr. KRUM offered the following resolution: question. I am in favor then of placing this Resolved, That the State be divided into forty- proposition in the body of the Constitution, and three assembly districts, as near as may be, equal against the amendment of the gentlemam from 291 Kings, because I want the question closed. I wish it taken from party issues. I wish that it be not confused by party issues. I wish that it be not confused by a separate submission. Who does not know that this proposition of separately submitting this question tends directly to confuse the whole subject. Gentlemen have stated here that a separate submission would relieve the subject from its embarrassments, and would place it distinctly before the people. But such is not the fact. That may be their theory. Sir, what is this question, this question that is to go to the people, if the proposition of the gentleman from Kings [Mr. Murphy] prevails? What is it? It is a question whether the negro shall be relieved from the odious distinction of the property qualification, and whether he shall be admitted to the exercise of the elective franchise on the same terms as the white man. It is not a question of admitting the negro to the elective franchise. That question is already settled, and has been settled, too, by the vote of the gentleman from Kings [Mr. Murphy] himself, for I have no doubt that he voted for the Constitution of 1846, and that he recognized the right of the negro to participate in the elective franchise. The question was settled long ago, not only by the vote of the gentleman from Kings, but before that day. Negroes have been admitted to the exercise of the elective franchise ever since we have been a State. But though that question is settled, who does not know that another question would be raised, that those gentlemen would go before their constituents with the cry that we were proposing to admit negroes to the exercise of the elective franchise. The gentleman himself has been confused in regard to the subject. He proposed an amendment in regard to this property qualification-an amendment which proposes to separately submit to the people the question of retaining in the Constitution an anti-democratic distinction, and then he goes off into a discussion of the subject of the inferiority of the negro-and the general subject of whether the negro should be admitted to the exercise of the elective franchise. If that gentleman, with all the acuteness of his intellect, and his keenness of perception is confused, what can be expected of those of us who are common people, but that we shall be confused? And so in regard to the gentleman from Rensselaer [Mr. Seymour] who, on this same proposition goes off into a discussion of the terrible effects that are to be brought on society by admitting negroes to the elective franchise in the Southern States, and also in regard to the idea of social equality as did the gentleman from Kings [Mr. Murphy]. These are the issues that will be placed before the people instead of the real issues, and here in a paper that has been laid on our desks to-day by the State Rights Association there is the same stale putting forth of this idea that we are proposing a new doctrine; that we are proPosing to enfranchise the negro for the first time; that we are proposing to bring him into a condition of social equality. We say, then, that we oPPose this amendment because it would confuse the people and tend to perpetuate these party prejudices and party strifes that have been injurious, to some extent, to the interests of the people of this State. Another reason why I am opposed to this amendment or why I am in favor of the converse proposition of this amendment is, that if this question is submitted to the people in the Constitution the proposition will certainly be carried. Is not that a good reason?-it will certainly be carried. It will not place in jeopardy any other interest, but the Constitution will be carried with this in it. The learned gentleman from Onondaga [Mr. Comstock] the other day spoke in favor of this amendment, and the only salient point in his argument was a fact connected with the submission of the Constitution of Massachusetts to the people, in which he showed conclusively that the idea of separate submission is inconsistent ordinarily with the triumph of any proposition; The Constitution of Massachusetts was submitted in nine propositions; but every one of them was defeated. I ask if that is not an argument against separate submission? for there were undoubtedly some good propositions embraced in those nine propositions. Is not that a good argument why we should not make a separate submission of this proposition? We advocate this proposition because we think it ought to be carried, and we mean to give it the best possible chance of success. As I have said we want this question settled; we desire that the people act in the bestowment of the elective franchise, not upon a whim or a prejudice, but upon a great general principle, and that great principle the principle that has been acknowledged, with this exception, by those who act with the gentleman from Kings, as well as by those with whom I act-the principle of manhood suffrage, the principle of equal rights. I proposed a question to the gentleman [Nr Nelson] who was discussing this subject the other day as to whether the people should be governed by a whim or a prejudice or by a great general principle in conferring the right to exercise the elective franchise, and he promised to answer it, but he really did not. However, I suppose that any gentleman will admit that the people should be governed in their political action by great general principles instead of prejudices or whims. But in the argument of the gentleman from Dutchess [Mr. Nelson], and in the arguments of all the gentlemen who have spoken in support of this amendment; in the arguments that have been made against extending the elective franchise, the only principle that has been advanced is the rule, or the whim if you please to call it so, requiring two hundred and fifty dollars to be in the possession of a colored man before he should be permitted to vote. The great general principie is this: Two hundred and fifty dollars in real estate, and the colored man is entitled to vote. This is the great general principle. Now, we propose to settle this question on the great general principle of equal rights, on the right of a man to vote, because he is a man. Now, perhaps, this may be said to be a point of honor - we admit that it is a point of honor with us to place this in the Constitution. But it is a point of honor which is founded upon our belief in a great general principle, and not upon a prejudice. The gentleman from Rensselaer [Mr. Seymour] told us the other day that there were higher 292 questions than this question; far higher and broader in their range, and yet, sir, I do not know of any question higher than the rights of citizens. I do not know of any question higher than the question of the rights of the men who obey the government and maintain the government, and are a part of the body politic. The gentleman at the same time showed his sensitiveness with regard to the rights of another class of citizens. He told us that if the rights of one man of a certain class were placed in jeopardy, or if we were by our action here to take away the rights of one man of a certain class, he would vote against the whole action of the Convention in every proposition of the Constitution. That, I suppose, is a point of honor with him. He believes in the right of the poor man, he tells us, and he believes in the right of a certain class that have not yet acquired full citizenship, and rather than the rights of one of those persons should be sacrificed, he says that he would live one hundred years under the present Constitution, and oppose all the great beneficent reforms that we hope to inaugurate in this Constitutional Convention; still, sir, I think that the rights of one class of citizens are equally to be respected with the rights of those who have not yet become citizens. We do not propose, and have not proposed, to make this a party question. The gentleman from Kings [Mr. Murphy], the other day said, referring to myself and those who act with me, that the gentleman seemed disposed to make this a party question, but we do not propose to make it a party question. As I have already said we desire to take it from partisan associations and send it before the people with a fair chance to succeed, and to send it before them in such a way that no partisan issue can be raised upon it. Therefore, we are opposed to the proposition of the gentleman from Kings [Mr. Murphy]. It seems to me there has been a party question raised. I have thought that when this amendment was first proposed it was simply a graceful retiring from the contest, thatit was sop to Cerebusor a tub to the whale, owing to the fact that these gentlemen in their political associations in other days, have Ween connected with this question, and that a large amount of their political capital has been invested in it. I supposed that simply out of respect to former associations and former prejudices, they had proposed and supported this amendment. But, sir, it seems to me that there is an attempt to make a party issue; to make a party issue on this single proposition of sending this question to the people separately from the main body of the Constitution. With all due deference to the gen. tlemen it strikes me that that is a narrow platform, a narrow plank, a rotten plank if you please to call it. Has it come to this that a great party with its grand historical associations, and its heritage of illustrious names is reduced to stand upon this narrow platform, of the submission of the question of property qualification. of the possession of two hundred and fifty dollars of freehold by a negro in order to entitle him to vote, to the people. That is their platform. Why then they will recite their political creed in this wise, and come before the people with their creed thus recited. I believe that the negro plus two hundred and fifty dollars of real estate is equal to the white man in political algebra; I believe that a negro plus two hundred and fifty dollars in real estate is a positive and not a negative quantity in the political equation. Is that the proposition? That is the proposition substantially. That is substantially the platform which they make. Has it come to this,that this grand old party, connected with the history of this State.and having an honorable record on most questions, is reduced to stand upon so narrow a plank as that? I believe that a negro man plus two hundred and fifty dollars in real estate-it must be in real estate-he may have a million, or as much as the national debt amounts to in his pocket, but if he has it not in real estate he is a negative quantity- I believe that a negro plus two hundred and fifty dollars in real estate is a positive quantity in the political equation. I am opposed to this amendment, it having taken on this party aspect, for the reason that this gentleman, and those who act with him outside of this Convention, are in favor of it, and that in itself is to me a good reason. It is a good maxim in war never to do what your enemies want you to do, and always to do what they do not want you to do, and this is one reason why I am opposed to this amendment. They want this separate submission, and why? Do they desire that the question should be separately submitted, for the purpose of carrying the proposition? Do they desire that it should he separately submitted so that it can be carried by an overwhelming vote? Is that the purpose? How manyof these gentlemen upon this floor will vote for it if it is sepaately submitted, after it shall be sent down to the people, or up to the people as a gentleman said the other day? Certainly not the gentleman from Kings [Mr. Murphy], because he has already told ns that he is opposed to the voting of negroes whether with property or without property, although he undoubtedly voted for our present Constitution with the provision in it permitting negroes to vote having a property qualification. The gentleman from Kings [Mr. Murphy], and most of the gentlemen on this floor who are advocating his amendment, will vote against extending the elective franchise to the colored man equally with the white, when the question goes to the people, if it shall go as a separate proposition, a few of them, however, will probably vote for it. But they will vote for it in any event. Do they advocate a separate submission out of respect to the people? The question is to be submitted to the people in any case. It is to be submitted to the people with the body of the Constitution, so that it does not argue any more respect for the will of the people to ask for a separate submission than it does to submit it in tile body of the Constitution. I take it, then, that these gentlemen favor this amendment because they wish to defeat the purpose we are aiming at in endeavoring to strike the distinction of color from the Constitution. I trust, sir, that this amendment will not prevail; that there will be made a Constitution so good, that there will be a Constitution with provisions so wise that these gentlemen, by their own judgment, will be compelled to forego what I 293 ever prejudices that may have had, and to vote for it as submitted. I trust that the Constitution will be made so wise in its provisions that no gentleman who has any regard for his reputation, or for his record, will be found voting against the Constitution merely because of this old prejudice in regard to color. I have thought, as I have already said, that this amendment was merely a way of gracefully retiring, but by the course of this debate I have been led rather to the conclusion that this is the last spiteful flourish of the mob in the hands of the wrinkled, withered, toothless and powerless old hag of prejudice —the last flourish of the mob in the hands of this old dame, who has been vainly endeavoring to push back the Atlantic ocean. Mr. GERRY —I have no intention to inflict upon this Convention an argument on the subject of the negro, his qualification for suffrage, nor his "equal" rights. I desire simply to offer a few suggestions upon the latter part of the proposed amendment of the gentleman from Kings [Mr. Murphy] in regard to a separate submission of this question to the people of the State of New York. It certainly seems to me that a very large number of the honorable gentlemen, who have exhibited, unquestionably, a great deal of ability in the speeches which they have delivered before this body, have entirely overlooked the fact that its members are not in any sense vested with legislative powers. The people of the State of New York, by selecting them, in a certain sense, as their representative men, have simply directed that they should frame an instrument to be submitted for their consideration and adoption, if they deem it expedient, which shall be unobjectionable in feature, and which clearly should not present any of the objectionable features which formerly existed, even though the objections have now, as it is said, passed away. In fact, the position which is occupied by the gentlemen of this honorable body, and who compose it is very nearly analogous to that of a member of the legal profession who has submitted to him by his client two previous wills for revision and necessary amendment. He finds, after a very careful examination of the memoranda and the instruments, that there is a gift which has been suggested by a previous legal adviser, but which has been objected to by the client, and rejected. He finds after a careful examination of the memoranda that this has been the case, not once but twice, at intervals, and that on each occasion his client has signified his dissent, and has refused, even by a codicil, to alter the original instrument, which did not contain it. The question then comes up, and I leave it to those gentlemen of the Convention who have the honor to belong to the legal profession, whether, without any other specific instructions from the client, they would feel justified or authorized in inserting in the new will, in case they were to draw one, this grant or gift which had been previously objected to, and thereby subject the entire instrument when presented for execution to the disapproval and rejection, or of the client whether it would not be more expedient and proper to present the will in a form which could not be objectionable, and thea to offer in a codicil as a separate amendment to it, the, one objectionable feature. Mr. SMITII - Will the gentleman allow me to ask him a question? In the case supposed, I would wish to enquire of the gentleman whether he would prepare for his client a will and a codicil at the same time and present them to him. Mr. GERRY - If the original will was one of elaboration and certainly was unobjectionable in every other feature, and there could be no question raised about the propriety of th6 articles which from the memoranda were incorporated in it, and it was engrossed ready for execution, I should say it would be right, if the counsel had no other opportunity to communicate with his client, because the client could execute the will and the codicil, or either, as he saw fit and his re - jection of the codicil would not as a matter of form affect the will. Now the people of the State at the time when through the agency of the Legislature they called this honorable body into being, had certainly some such view in mind; because by the act by which they expressly conferred power upon the Convention to assemble, they anticipated that some one or more of the various amendments which might be proposed to the original instrument, would be objectionable to a portion of their number, and therefore by this organic law, so to speak, they directed that the said amendments or the said Constitution shall be voted upon as a whole, or in such separate propo. sitions as the Convention shall deem practicable, and as the Convention shall bv resolution declare. In either case the Convention shall prescribe the form of the ballot, the publication of the amendments or of the Constitution" and the notice to be given of the election. In case the said amendments or parts of the said Constitution shall be voted upon separately, every person entitled to vote thereon may vote for or against any one or more of them. 'Clearly if there had not been some question, which like the present, has been agitating our country for a number of years, and which the people saw must unquestionably in some form come up before this body, and which if incorporated into the Constitution might defeat its adoption by the popular vote, they would not have instructed their Legislature to pass any such provision as this. Either this amendment providing for a separate submission has some significance, or it has none at all. It is either surplusage in the law, or it is an important element in it. By, looking back to the instrument which has called us here together, we find instructions in reference to the subject of a separate submission, and which calls our attention to the fact that questions might arise which would require a separate submission Can it be urged that this one single question of negro suffrage and so called negro rights which, has excited for years and years so much interest in the nation at large, and which is presented in one of its manifold forms, is not Tne of those questions which it was contemplated might and ought to be so submitted. It, has been said by some honorable gentlemen of this Con. vention that if we submit this questiotl separately to the people, the same arguargument would apply to other questions-thatlit might as well apply to an amendment which may be proposed in reference to, the limitation anu Mr. SMITH - Will the gentleman allow me to ask him a question? In the case supposed, I would wish to enquire of the gentleman whether he would prepare for his client a will and a codicil at the same time and present them to him. Mr. GERRY - If the original will was one of elaboration and certainly was unobjectionable in every other feature, and there could be no question raised about the propriety of the articles which from the memoranda were incorporated in it, and it was engrossed ready for execution, I should say it would be right, if the counsel had no other opportunity to communicate with his client, because the client could execute the will and the codicil, or either, as he saw fit and his rejection of the codicil would not as a matter of form affect the will. Now the people of the State at the time when through the agency of the Legislature they called this honorable body into being, had certainly some such view in mind; because by the act by which they expressly conferred power upon the Convention to assemble, they anticipated that some one or more of the various amendments which might be proposed to the original instrument, would be objectionable to a portion of their number, and therefore by this organic law, so to speak, they directed that the said amendments or the said Constitution shall be voted upon as a whole, or in such separate propositions as the Convention shall deem practicable, and as the Convention shall by resolution declare. In either case the Convention shall prescribe the form of the ballot, the publication of the amendments or of the Constitution, and the notice to be given of the election. In case the said amendments or parts of the said Constitution shall be voted upon separately, every person entitled to vote thereon may vote for or against any one or more of them. Clearly if there had not been some question, which like the present, has been agitating our country for a number of years, and which the people saw must unquestionably in some form come up before this body, and which if incorporated into the Constitution might defeat its adoption by the popular vote, they would not have instructed their Legislature to pass any such provision as this. Either this amendment providing for a separate submission has some significance, or it has none at all. It is either surplusage in the law, or it is an important element in it. By looking back to the instrument which has called us here together, we find instructions in reference to the subject of a separate submission, and which calls our attention to the fact that questions might arise which would require a separate submission. Can it be urged that this one single question of negro suffrage and so called negro rights which, has excited for years and years so much interest in the nation at large, and which is Do presented in one of its manifold forms, is not Tne of those questions which it was contemplated might and ought to be so submitted. It has been said by some honorable gentlemen of this Con. vention that if we submit this question separately to the people, the same arguargument would apply to other questions-that it might as well apply to an amendment which may be proposed in reference to the limitation and 294 restriction of the powers of the Legislature or may do as an individual-as one of the peoplechanges which may be made in questions of when the question comes to be voted on, I con. finance. But can any of those gentlemen point sider is entirely different from what I may do to one single instance where any one of these when the question is here before us. There is questions, or can they refer to any other question another consideration which I desire to present in which has such a paramount political importance. favor of this separate submission. The Constitution. or which is of such paramount political interest to when revised by us and reported, undoubtedly will, the State as the one now here presented, that has as shown by indications already in this Convenbeen before the people on two distinct occasions, tion, effect great vital changes in the government and has been each time rejected by them. But it of our cities, in regard to the powers of the Legis. is claimed that there has been a great change lature and other matters, which must and will in public opinion since either of those votes strike a vital blow at the corruption which has were taken, and, therefore, we risk nothing flooded her entire State and people. There is not in incorporating such an amendment in the a man who will be injuriously affected by provis. Constitution, permitting the negro to vote the ions which we may make with this end in view, same as a white citizen. I desire to answer but will be opposed to any Constitution we may that by looking at the question as it stands. frame, but, of course, the incorporation in it of Here is substantially the same question sub- this proposed clause, will be by them used mitted years ago for adoption to the people as a strong argument against its adoption, twice and by them twice rejected, and a certain whereas, if it did not contain this feature number of years has intervened between each no objection to it could be successfully urged by submission. On each occasion it has been rejected such men against the adoption of the instrument in almost precisely the same ratio of votes cast and they would have no object in opposing the against it. If the opinion of the people has un. separate question. The only reason why dergone the change which is claimed by those who kindred propositions, when submitted separ. now ask the incorporation of this article in the ately, have been voted down, is, because the body of the Constitution, then assuredly there people were opposed to them, and the results can be no objection to permitting them to vote on of such ballot show that the number of votes it separately. But where it is already shown which were cast against them would have been that they have twice rejected this very sufficient to have carried them if the people had article, then the very grave question arises been of that mind. There has been another whether the entire labors of this Convention objection urged by gentlemen against a separate would not be' imperiled-nay, absolutely lost submission, and that was the "complexity" and in consequence of the rejection of a proposition " convolution " of those articles, as the gentlemen which the people have already twice rejected. I from Westchester [Mr. Greeley] termed them. submit to the consideration of this honorable body I can tell the gentleman that there have been whether any instrument which we are about to almost yearly elections in this State, in the city frame, and which has cost the people of the State of of New York where there are six or seven New York a very large amount of money, consid- different tickets voted for as many different ering the sums which they have appropriated offices, and yet there is no difficulty in electing for the expenses of the present Convention and men to those offices. And if a Constitution be whether our individual labors in framing this submitted to the people, with the submission at instrument should be imperiled by inserting in the same election on a separate ballot, of the it a provision about which there is a grave and question of the extension of negro suffrage as a serious doubt. I, for one, should be willing to separate question, there will not be many men in vote for any proposition submitting separately any the State who will discard their ballot for want question which the experience of the past has of understanding what they are voting for. It is shown would necessarily or even probably jeopar- an insult to the intelligence of the people. The dize and endanger the instrument which we are gentleman from Rensselaer [Mr. M. I. Townabout to frame, and that is the ground upon which send] spoke about the responsibility of this ConI put my first reason for a separate submission of vention, resting on what he was pleased to call the the question of allowing the negro the right to political party in this Convention which held the vote on an equality with the white man. majority. And I have seen it stated in the newsMr. AXTELL-If the question were submitted papers that there was a political party in this separately to the vote of the people, would you Convention which held the majority, but I have vote in favor of doing away with the property looked in vain in any action which this Convention qualification? has taken to indicate the existence of the members Mr. GERRY - It will depend entirely upon or that political majority. There is not a vote of the way in which the proposition is submitted ayes and nays now on file with the Secretary of when the aqstion comes before the people. I this Convention where, on inspection, it will not shall thenaiake up my mind on the subject. If appear that gentlemen who are marked in italics the negro is mentally and physically competent to are just as numerous on the side of the vote equally with the white man, I see no just ayes as on the side of the noes; and there reason why he should be required to possess a has not been such a vote taken in which the property qualification as a condition precedent to gentlemen whose names are printed in Roman are his right to vote; but if not so competent I really not as often found on the one side of a question do not see how the possession of property would as those printed in italics. Assuming the honorendow him with intellectual ability. We are able gentleman (Mr. Townsend] to be a leader of here, not as a legislative body, and whatever I the political majority to which he refers; and I 295 infer that he is, not being versed in the politics of the party to which he belongs, but assuming it from the positive import of his argument which he made the other day that he was one of its leaders, I do not really see that there is anything to indicate that that political majority as such, is disposed to cast its vote either one way or the other on this question. This Convention is not, in any sense, a political body. I do not know of any exception to the statement I have made. I do not know of a single other question of a political nature that can possibly arise in reference to an amendment of the Constitution. If this Convention is governed by a political body, it certainly is a little singular that the majority of that political body has not, so far as my information goes, held a caucus since the Convention was organized. There has been throughout our sessions the same line of argument pursued by gentlemen belonging to both the Republican and Democratic parties. They have voted harmoniously side by side, for and against the incurring of expenses, in reference to the subject of 'canals, and even for and against the rule of the previous question. They are now in this very Committee of the Whole speaking side by side for or against the adoption of this very amendment that is now pending before the house, and the views of the gentleman from Rensselaer in regard to political responsibility, I fear, strongly resemble his historical reminiscences of the State of Massachusetts, from which he was pleased to say the other day that both his ancestors and mine came. In answer to a question proposed by me, he said: "I came from a State that was proud to call its great democrat, who held prominent position, by — the name of my friend who has just interrupted me [Mr. Gerry], and in that State, neither then nor now, have we ever had any jealousy of the negro; and neither his ancestors nor mine have ever felt any fear that, in a fair contest, the negro would get the advantage in the race of life. Now it is a little singular that in this very State of Massachusetts in the year 1788, on the 25th day of March-after the Declaration of Independence, there was an act passed entitled "An act for suppressing and punishing of rogues, vagabonds, common beggars, and other idle, disorderly and lewdpersons." Thatlaw provided as follows: " No person being an African or negro, other than a subject of the Emperor of Morocco, or a citizen of some one of the United States (to be evidenced by a certificate from the Secretary of the State of which he shall be a citizen), shall tarry within this Commonwealth, for a longer time than two months, and upon complaint made to any justice of the peace, within this Commonwealth, that any such person has been within the same more than two months, the said justice shall order the said person to depart out of this Commonwealth, and in Case that the said African or nerro shall not depart as aforesaid, any justice of the peace within this Commonwealth, upon complaint and proof made that such person has continued within this Commonwealth ten days after notice given him or her to depart as aforesaid, shall commit the said Person to any house of correction within the county, there to be kept to hard labor, agreeable to the rules and orders of the said house, until the Sessions of the Peace, next to be holden within and for the said county." And this act remained upon the statute book, unrepealed, until the year 1834. Mr. GOULD-Will the gentleman inform me what book he is reading from? Mr. GERRY - I am reading from Mr. Moore's History of Slavery in Massachusetts, pages 228 and 231, the author being George H. Moore, who is the present Secretary of the New York State Historical Society. He has given references to the original volume being " the earliest classified edition of the 'perpetual laws of the commonwealth of Massachusetts.'" Even in 1780 the negroes were not allowed to vote, for in that year they presented a petition, in which they use this language: " Your petitioners further show, that we apprehend ourselves to be aggrieved, in that while we are not allowed the privilege of freemen of the State, having no vote or influence in the election of those that tax us, yet many of our color (as is well known), have cheerfully entered the field of battle in the defense of the common cause, and that (as we conceive) against a similar exertion of power (in regard to taxation), too well known to need a recital in this place." But there was another part of the answer of the gentleman from Rensselaer in answer to my question, which seemed to be rather more forcible than it was delicate. He said, "I said I was opposed to the mingling of the races, particularly in regard to its effect on posterity, and my friend puts that upon the ground of intermarriage. I will say to my friend [Mr. Gerry], another thing, I am opposed to that illicit concubinage practiced by that party at the South, to which my friend belongs, which has scattered a black and white posterity over the Southern States, until any field of the so-called African population, looks like a race of what are called skunk blackbirds. Sir, there is no danger of the intermingling of the race by a man who respects his own blood." Unfortunately for the gentleman's argument, the State of Massachusetts by a law passed in 1705, Chap. 6. " for the better preventing of the spurious and mixed issue, punishes negroes and mulattoes for improper intercourse with the whites, by selling them out of the province." It is a somewhat singular fact that the State of Massachusetts as far back as the year 1705, should have set the example of "illicit concubinage " with negroes which the gentleman complains was only practiced in the southern States by the party to which he says I belong. What difficulty can there be in this Convention submitting separately any plain, deliberate, unqualified questions to the people of this State, such as the question whether the people of the State will or will not do away with the distinction of color. There would be one advantage unquestionably gained to those who favorMr. AXTELL-Will the gentleman allow me to ask him one question? Mr. GERRY-Certainly, but I would prefer the gentleman should wait till I finish this line of argument, I will then answer him with pleasure. I do not believe there will be a single ob 296 jection made or a single vote given here against the question of separate submission. The advocates of negro suffrage will have the proposition presented to the people as an unanimous one, if this Convention submits it to them without objection or question, whereas, if they submit it inserted - this Constitution. no matter how vital or radical may be the changes made in the government of the State, it is, as previous history has shown at the risk of having the entire Constitution destroyed by the vote of the people. Indeed, if the principles which are here advocated by members of the republican party, and that party has a majority in the State, I, for one, am at a loss to conceive why their representatives here fear to have the proposition separately submitted to them. If, on the other hand, the body of the people are adverse to it, there is no reason to believe they will be persuaded to vote for an amendment or a Constitution which is objectionable, especially when as I have shown there are many men who will be injuriously affected by other changes, and who will undoubtedly use this powerful argument against the adoption of the Constitution, that contains this obnoxious feature-a clause which is sufficient to ruin it. It seems to me then that there is after all no valid objection to the submission of this question as a single, separate, and distinct proposition, to the people who have sent us here, and that it rests with them and not with us, whether the negro shall.be allowed to vote on the same equality with the white man, and that the responsibility is not on this Convention, but on the people of the State of New York. Mr. HALE - I would ask before I proceed to make any remarks, that the amendment now pending shall be read by the Secretary, that I may understand it. The SECRETARY proceeded to read the amendment of Mr. Murphy. Mr. MURPHY-Will the gentleman from Essex [Mr. Hale] give wayfor a moment and enable me to make a verbal correction in the substitute offered by myself. Mr. HALE - Certainly. Mr. MURPHY-I inadvertently made use of the word persons, instead of the word men, in the latter part of the substitute proposed by myself. I wish to correct it, so that it shall read " then all men of color shall be entitled to vote," and add to the end "subiect to the other qualifications and restrictions which are imposed upon other electors." There being no objection the amendment was allowed. Mr. HALE —Mr. Chairman, I called for the reading of the amendment, because in looking over the debates since it was offered, as I heve been deprived of the pleasure of listening to them, I thought I discovered that gentlemen were taking a pretty wide range of debate, and that the subject which was properly before the ConTention, was not the one which was discussed by many of the gentlemen who have spoken. I make this remark, not with the view of criticising the course of gentlemen of the Convention, but merely to state that I shall pursue a course which in my judgment is the proper one to be taken upon this discussion, and that is to confine myself mainly to the question raised by the amendment proposed by the gentleman from Kings. I am opposed to that amendment, but not for the reasons, however, that have been held by many gentlemen who have spoken here. I am opposed to it, because I dislike the form in which the gentleman proposes to submit this question to the people of this State. I am in favor of a separate submission. I am in favor of it as a friend of this change; and I confess that I cannot comprehend the motives which can influence gentlemen who entertain the same views I do on the main question, it opposing so strenuously as they do a proposition to give to the people of this State an opportunity to say distinctly, and without being compelled to vote upon any other question, at the same time, whether or not they will extend the elective franchise, or rather whether or not they will abolish the remaining property qualification. I say I am opposed to this amendment. The reasons for which I am opposed to it are these: this amendment proposesto embody the submission in the article of the Constitution itself. I think that is an awkward mode, and moreover. I think that is a way in which we are not authorized to submit it under the act of the Legislature by which we are here convened. By turning to the 5th section of that act. I find that it is provided that "The said amendments or Constitution shall be submitted by the Convention to the people, for their adoption or rejection, at the next general election, to be held on the Tuesday next after the first Monday of November next, and every person hereby entitled to vote for delegates may, at that election, vote on such adoption or rejection, in the election district in which he shall then reside, and not elsewhere. The said amendments or the said Constitution shall be voted upon as a whole, or in such separate propositions as the Convention shall deem practicable, and as the Convention shall by resolution declare " now the work of this Convention, as I understand it, is to propose a Constitution for the acceptance of the people of this State. It is not to propose to them simply a way in which they can alter the Constitution, but we are here, and it is our duty to express our opinions, and to embody our views in the Constitution to be submitted to the people, whether they will indorse those views or not. That is one reason why I am opposed to the amendment of the gentleman from Kings [Mr. Murphy]. Another is, as a friend of this measure, I am opposed to that form of this amendment because it would give the weight of the recommendation of this Convention against the proposed change. By it, as I understand it, he proposes that we enact that this old property qualification as respects men of color shall remain, and we give the people an opportunity by their votes to strike it out. My course would be just the reverse of this. I would say that we frame a Constitution which should leave this property qualification out and thus abolish the distinction which is made there between the white race and the black, and leave it to the people, if they choose to do it, to put it in again. I would leave the laboring oar where it belongs, with those who seek to retain in the 297 Constitution a provision which this Convention believes it right should be stricken out, with those who seek to take an exception to the proposition which we make, and say that we will, while indorsing this Constitution as a whole, strike out one of its provisions. And another reason why I am opposed to the adoption of such an amendment now is the one that has been suggested here, that this discussion is somewhat premature. We certainly cannot decide with intelligence how we will submit amendments that we propose until we decide whether we will have anything to submit, or what we shall submit. I should not have participated in this discussion had not this question arisen; but as it has arisen, and gentlemen have expressed their views, and inasmuch as the views I entertain differ very essentially from those of most of those who advocate this change, I deem it proper to express those views. I propose to consider first the reasons why I am in favor of enabling the people to pass distinctly and separately uppn the proposition. In doing this I shall first advert to some objections that have been made to such separate submission, and then give my affirmative reasons for my opinion, and after I have done that. I shall suggest, not for the action of this Convention, but for its consideration, a form by which, I think, all the objections, or most of them, which have been made to the form of this submission, may be obviated. The first gentleman who objected to a separate submission was the distinguished chairman of the Committee on the Right of Suffrage [Mr. Greeley]. As I find, from the newspapers-for I was not present when he made his remarks on the subject-he objected to it for reasons which I will read. He savs: " Gentlemen must be aware that such submissions tend not only to confuse, but to alienate the people. If we should go to the people with a Constitution submitted in pieces, it would almost certainly be voted down. I am opposed to all proposals for separate submissions, because, if the plan is adopted, the people will vote down the Constitution which we shall submit to them." Here we have something which looks very much like a prophecy. The gentleman tells us that if we submit this Constitution separately, or submit a separate proposition, the people will vote it down. Sir. however great are the attainments of the gentleman [Mr. Greeley], and I do not question them, I have yet to learn that he is either a prophet or the son of a Prophet, although I am aware that it is said that in many sections of the country the Journal with which his name is connected is regarded as equivalent to ooth the old and new Testaments; yet I have never been quite able to acquiesce in the correctness of that opinion, and I am inclined to think that the gentleman goes a little beyond the record when he says that this Constitution will fail if it is submitted separately. He states it with much positiveness and distinctess, but yet he states something that he does not now, and I take the liberty of believing that in that oPinion the distinguished gentleman is mistaken. thinC that if this Constitution is submitted as it Ought to be-if it is submitted so as to give the People an opportunity to take what they like and 38 reject what 1y do not like, that they will act in conformity with their opinions and principles. And I have 'confidence in the principles of the people of this State that they will sustain this change which we shall propose to be made in regard to the property qualification of electors. Again, the distinguished gentleman [Mr. Greeley] says that the people will say "If the Convention is capable of making a Constitution, let them present one, and we are capable of deciding whether we like it or not." I would ask the gentleman if he does not think that the people are capable of saying, "We like a part of the Constitution which is proposed, but we do not like the whole of it." I have more faith in the people than the gentleman has. I believe they are capable of distinguishing between the different parts and saying, " Some provisions we like, and some provisions we do not like." It is because of my faith in the people, and because of my belief that if this question is submitted separately, it will be decided affirmatively by the people that I advocate a separate submission. The gentleman also says, that he has known of Constitutions to be submitted in this way and that they have been defeated. Admitting the statement of the gentleman, which I have no doubt is correct, although I have no information in regard to it, I am not aware that it proves anything. It shows that the people, when the questions have been submitted, have disapproved of the proposed changes. If the gentleman would produce here the questions which have been submitted, if he could make us acquainted with all the circumstances attending the submission, and could show that the people rejected Constitutions which they desired and which they should have adopted, that is one thing; but the mere fact that the people have, in cases where there has been a separate submission, sometimes rejected Constitutions, is no indication as to what will be done in this dase. All this prophecy of defeat upon a separate submission, is the merest dictum in the world. It is not argument. It is a mere matter of opinion. If gentlemen believe as they profess to believe, and I think correctly, that the people of this State are in favor of abolishing this property qualification, which Is left in our Constitution as applied to men of color, I cannot see any reason why they should raise this issue, why they should allow our opponents on this measure to place us in the false position of trying to deceive the people, or rather of trying to withhold from the people the power which belongs to them, instead of meeting the question squarely and saying we will make a distinct proposition-we will meet our opponents before the people at the polls, and as we trust, will beat them there. This question, Mr. Chairman, is one that has been considered before, and I propose to read a very brief extract from a work which I presume has been brought to the notice of all the members of this Convention-a work upon Constitutional Conventions which has certainly been prepared with a great deal of care, and which shows in it a great deal of discrimination, research and judgment. I know the author to be a gentleman of sound judgment, great learning, and eminently qualified for a work of this kind; I refer to the 298 work on Constitutional Convents by Judge Jameson, of Chicago. Upon page 469, ~ 515, he says: "A Constitution may be wholly new, or it may be an old one revised by adding to its material provisions. It may, also, in a hundred separate subdivisions, contain but a fourth of that number of distinct topics, or each subdivision may be substantive and independent. It is obvious that the submitting body, weighing accurately the public sense, may determine whether the whole Constitution must stand or fall as a unit, or whether some parts, being adopted, and going into effect without the rest, the new system would be adequate to the exigencies of the State, and may submit it as a whole or in parts accordingly. But it is perfectly clear that every distinct proposition, not vital to the scheme as a whole, or to some other material part, ought to be separately submitted." Then in a note at the bottom of page 470, is a quotation from the veto message of the Council of Revision of this State, in November, 1820, in which they objected to a bill providing for submitting the Constitution, because the proposition was to submit the amendments in a mass and not in separate articles. They object to the proposed bill: "Because the bill contemplates an amended Constitution to be submitted to the people, to be adopted or rejected in toto, without prescribing any mode by which a discrimination may be made between such provisions as shall be deemed salutary, and such as shall be disapproved by the judgment of the people; if the people are competent to pass upon the entire amendments, of which there can be no doubt, they are equally competent to adopt such of them as they approve, and to reject such as they disapprove; and this undoubted right of the people is the more importarit, if the Convention is to be called in the first instance without a previous consultation of the pure and original source of all legitimate authority." There may be cases with regard to the separate submission of a proposition, where it would be injudicious, as in the cases referred to by this author, where the Constitution is so interwoven with various provisions that you cannot separate one from the rest without marring the symmetry of the whole. This, I submit, is the only reason which can be given for not separating every important change or proposition. There are only two objections to such submission in any case: first, the one I have suggested, that it may be a part of a comprehensive whole, which, if one part is taken out and away from the rest, will leave the others imperfect. Second, that it will lead so much into detail as to cause confusion and complexity. As to the first objection, if it ever does exist, I think it is clear it does not apply to this case. A question as to who shall be the electors of the State cannot in the nature of things, be so interwoven in this Con. stitution, that a decision whether the amendment which we may make on that subject shall remain in the Constitution, will affect it as a complete and entire instrument. Certainly the submission of one proposition will not lead to complexity. I am not prepared to say there will not be others, as we have so many propositions for amendments and changes: there may be other provisions which this Conventionwvill deem it best to sub. mit separately to the people within certain limits, and it will be eminently proper, if the changes pro. posed shall be very radical and very great, that the people shall have the opportunity to pass upon them distinctly and separately. Another objection was made by the gentleman from Lewis [Mr. E. Brown] who apprehended there was danger that some might withhold their votes in favor of this change, from apathy. There is some force in this, but I think it can be entirely obviated by a proper mode of submission, and I shall suggest a plan before I get through, which, I think, if adopted will obviate any such objection. Another objection, raised by the gentleman from Onondaga [Mr. Corbett]-if it can be called an objectionto this separate submission was that it savors of cowardice and compromise. I confess, sir, I am astonished that such an objection should be made to such a submission to the people-cowardice, to call upon the people to say directly and plainly whether they will or will not retain this restriction upon the right of suffrage? "Cowardice," because we do not require the people when they say that, to reject or adopt with it the amendment which is proposed to the judiciary system, or the amendment which is proposed for a system of finance, and to vote in the same way on them as on the suffrage amendment? It seems to me, Mr. Chairman, with great respect and deference to the gentleman from Onondaga [Mr. Corbett], that if there is any cowardice, if there is ~any compromise, it is that which undertakes to confuse this matter, and compel the people to swallow the whole of what we give them, or to take none of it. Again, sir, my distinguished friend from Columbia [Mr. Gould] for whom I entertain the very greatest respect, made the remark according the reports in the papers, that it would be an insult to the people to submit this proposition separately. I confess I cannot see how it is an insult to the people, to say to them, "Instead of having merely the opportunity of rejecting or adopting it all, you may, if you choose, select out what you wish and leave the rest." We generally, as individuals, regard it as a privilege if we are allowed to pick out and choose; and it strikes me that the insult is in undertaking to crowd everything we may see fit to put into this Constitution, down the throats of the people, or else to have them reject it all. Suppose we, as very likely we may, adopt some provisions which are distasteful to the people; suppose for instance, that the system of judiciary which may be proposed should be distasteful to the people; are we to say to them: "you must adopt this system just as we have given it to you, or you cannot extend the suffrage?" As was stated by the gentleman from New York [Mr. Gerry] who preceded me, undoubtedly there are a large body of men in this State who will be injuriously affected by some amendments that are proposed to this Constitution; it is within the bounds of possibility that some distinguished gentlemen who now hold lucrative offices, will, by the action of this Convention, providing it is ratified by the people, find themselves without them. Shall we V 299 ay tothose men: You cannot oppose that part gentleman from Kings [Mr. Murphy], trying to of the Constitution which injuriously effects your prove that the colored race were not the proper interests, unless you will at the same time forego recipients of the right of suffrage, were irrelevant, your wish to extend the right of suffrage-if you for the reason that I consider that the people have any such wish? Shall we invite tie hostil- of this State are estopped from denying that ty of these gentlemen who are interested in re- colored men have capacity to vote. Men of taiming their offices-if there are any such-as it is color have always been allowed to vote in most likely, judging by what we see of the opera- this State, and the question is a question of retention of human nature,that they will oppose this part tion, or non-retention of the property qualification, of the Constitution by which their office is to be and it is for that reason I think the remarks in terminated. Shall we say to them, in order to do regard to the natural right to vote, with great that, you have also got to oppose us upon this deference to those distinguished gentlemen who question of the extension of the rights of suffrage. have discussed the question, and upon the disSuch will be the inevitable result if you say this tinction between the black and white races, were Constitution is to be submitted as a whole, and irrelevant. The State of New York has always shallnot be taken up separately and distinctly, admitted this class to vote, within certain limits, Now, having considered these objections, I pro- as I shall proceed to show more fully presently. pose to state very briefly some of the reasons Then, sir, to reply a little more fully to the queswhich induce me to think this is eminently a tion of my friend from Clinton [Mr. Axtell], it proper matter to be submitted separetely to is clearly a surrender of power for us who the people. The first reason is this amend. now wield the power of this State to elect its ment, unlike any other, probably, that we officers, to say that another class who do not shall propose, is one which asks the sovereign wield that power, shall come in and exercise it. rulers of this country, the legal voters therein, to And it is the same in the case of the young man surrender a part of their power. It strikes me coming of age. But that is one of the matters with great deference to those gentlemen here who settled by our present system; we have all have argued so eloquently and learnedly on the agreed to make that surrender to those young natural right of suffrage, that that has nothing men who are following in our footsteps when whatever to do with this question. The fact is they come of age. The Constitution already we are here representing certain legal voters of in existence provides that every male citizen, this State. We are sent here by their votes, and when he reaches the age of twenty-one, shall whatever our action is, it has to be passed upon come forward and take his part in adminisby them, and unless it is approved by them, it tering the government; it also provides that goes for nothing. Here is an amendment by men of color, unless possessed of this property which we ask these men whom we represent here, qualification, shall not have this right. I thereto admit into participation with their power, a fore insist that it is clearly a surrender of power, certain class which has heretofore been excluded. where those of us who now yield this power, to tell I am, as I said before, in favor of such surrender that class which has heretofore been disqualified, and of giving such participation- to come in and wield this power equally with us. Mr. AXTELL-Will the gentleman allow me to Can there be a question more eminently proper ask him a question? Is conferring the franchise to submit to the people than this? We are sent upon persons, who have not hitherto exercised here, and our action is to be revised by those the franchise, a surrender of power? And, when whom the Constitution now makes the legal a young man comes of age and becomes an elec- voters - we are of that class ourselves. We tor, does that imply a surrender of power on the have our views in regard to it. I think a part of the other electors? large majority of this Convention are, and cerMr. HALE - If the learned gentleman would tainly I myself am, strongly in favor of making put but one question at a time I will endeavor to this surrender, and abolishing this qualification, answer him more clearly. I would inquire which which now excludes this class from voting. I question the gentleman wishes me to answer say it is right, and I have yet to see the argument first? upon this question which has, to my mind, any Mr. AXTELL —I think they both involve the basis of force in it, to show it is not right, that same principle. this question which has got to be passed upon by Mr. HALE -I differ with the gentleman in the people, should be passed upon separately as a that respect, distinct proposition. Mr. HAND-I wish to ask the gentleman a Mr. BECKWITH-If the gentleman will allow, question. He has stated that the question of the I will ask him whether the property qualification is qualities of the negro has nothing to do with this a right or wrong principle. subject. Now, we propose to extend the suffrage Mr. HALE-I have already said that I am in to a class who have not hitherto enjoyed it, and favor of abolishing it. We are met by the objection that they have quali- Mr. BECKWITH-Is the gentleman in favor of ies such as make it impracticable and wrong. submitting, what ife regards as wrong, to the ak has that nothing to do with this discussion? people, to say whether it is right or not? Br. o ALE - My answer to the gentleman from Mr. HALE-I will answer the gentleman from lotene [Mry Hand], will be, that in my judgment Clinton [Mr. Beckwith] in this way: We must Ro the remarks which have been made with regard submit this question to the people. It is not ohe race or the capacity of the colored man, on a matter of choice with us; no matter oth sides, have been irrelevant to the main ques. if the Constitution were as wrong as can ti* My view is that the remarks made by the be; no matter if it reouired a violation 300 ~ of every one of the ten commandments; we ing. The question which the gentlemen [Mr have sworn to support that Constitution; we Andrews] first asked me, was whether the sub. are sent here by the persons who under that mission of that Constitution ought not to have Constitution are the legal voters, and what- been made to all those who were qualified voters, ever propositions we may make, no matter if it and he assumed in his question that a certain was to abolish a clause which required of every class of voters were, by the operation of that man a violation of the ten commandments, will Constitution excluded from voting. I answered have to be submitted, and they who sent us here him by stating that it ought to have been, and it are to pass upon them. was, as I understand, submitted to the duly quali. Mr. ANDREWS - Will the gentleman allow fled voters of the State. The gentleman is misme to ask him a question. I understand the gen- taken in saying that by that Constitution any tleman to say, that when the electoral body is person was excluded from voting, although by called upon to surrender a portion of its rights, the the terms of that Constitution a distinction, which body of electors whose rights are to be surren- did not before exist, was made between the two dered, are to decide the question as to that sur- races. render. I ask him, whether upon the application Mr. ANDREWS —The point was that the of the same principle, when the Convention of party called upon to surrender the power should 1820 deprived negro citizens of the right to vote, determine upon that question of surrender. except under a peculiar qualification, whether Mr. HALE - The question now asked by the upon his principle, that class of our citizens whose gentleman is different from my understanding of rights were to be surrendered should not have what he asked me before. I should say in been entitled by their own vote alone to pass upon principle, that the question should not have been that question. submitted to the colored voters only (although, Mr. HALE-I would say to my friend from as I said before, I do not consider the discussion Onondaga [Mr. Andrews] that the Convention of of the duties of that Convention of 1821, as 1821, having sat some years before I was born, I specially pertinent to the question before us), do not deem myself especially responsible for its because, prior to that time, there has been no actions, and what it should, or should not have distinction whatever of races, and the question done, I do not consider a very proper subject for only was whether a certain measure of reliefdiscussion here. I will say further, if I have a certain extension of the right of suffrage read history aright, no man of color who was a which was made in favor of the white man voter before 1821 was deprived of his vote by that should also be extended to the black man. proviso which was inserted in the Constitution It was a question in which all the electors then. Prior to 1821 no man was a competent voter, were equally interested and upon which they for member of Assembly, unless he possessed real all should vote. I hope the gentleman [Mr. estate of the value of fifty pounds; he must Andrews] will not understand me as expressing possess a freehold of that amount, or rent an any approbation of the proviso which was estate of the value of forty shillings yearly, and inserted in the Constitution of 1821. If I in addition pay taxes. That was the provision had been consulted at that time (which by in the Constitution of 1777. And he could not a mere oversight, I suppose was omitted) vote for Senator under that Constitution unless [laughter] I probably should have been ophe was possessed of a freehold worth one posed to the insertion of that proviso there; hundred pounds over and above all debts and at least, such has been my opinion since I have liabilities. Therefore, as I said before, the Con- entertained any on the subject. All of my arguvention of 1821 did not deprive a single man in ment is this; that this whole instrument, having the State of the privilege of voting. The dis- to be submitted to the people, this is the provitinction was not until then made in the Constitu- sion of all others to be considered in deciding tion between black and white men. Still the what portions of it, if any were to be submitted property qualification which existed prior to that separately, because it is one, no matter what was Convention, would exclude from the right of voting done in 1821, by which is now proposed a surrenevery colored man, as well as every white man, der of power on the part of those whc exercise the who did not possess the required qualification. But elective franchise. One remark further in reif it had made a distinction, I would say most gard to the inquiry of the gentleman from Clinton emphatically to the gentleman from Onondaga [Mr. Beckwith]. He asks whether it is right and [Mr. Andrews] that the legal voters under that just that there should be a property qualification. Constitution were the ones to be consulted, and I answer him that I certainly regard the continuit was upon their vote and their vote only, that ance of the property qualification as to the man the change could be made. of color, applying it to the white man, as Mr. ANDREWS - I desire to ask the gentle- eminently unjust, and I am in favor of abolman whether the peculiar discrimination which ishing it. But I have no doubt there will now exists in respect to men of color in this State, be many propositions made by the Convention was not first inserted in the organic law of the which the gentleman from Clinton [Mr. BeckState by the Convention of 1821, and whether, with], himself may regard as not just and rightl for the first time in the history of the State, that or which involve questions of policy and not quesConvention did not make a discrimination between tions of principle - questions upon which he wil white and black electors, and their qualifications concede men may properly differ, and in which as such. they will concede that no great principle is inMr. HALE-I so understand it, but I fail to volved. I will ask him and other gentlemen see how it bears upon the question I am discuss- whether, in case of an amendment proposed to 301 this Constitution of which they approve, if the Constitution should be submitted only as a whole, they will not be obliged to vote for the amendment of which they disapprove, if they vote for that which they regard as eminently right and proper. The fact of this being an amendment which he [Mr. Beckwith] regards as right and proper, does not affect the principle; and that is one reason, according to my mind, why we should be allowed to pass on this proposition distinctly and separately, without being obliged, at the same time, to vote for other measures which we may think are not right and proper. This is all I propose to say in regard to this question of the separate submission. It is a question upon which my own mind is very clear and I cannot forbear again expressing my surprise, that gentlemen for whom I entertain so high a respect and who hold the same opinions that I do, should be disposed to insist upon the submission of the whole Constitution together and object to a separate submission of any part of it. One great reason why I wish a separate submission, is because when I come to vote, as I expect by the blessing of God to do, if my life is spared, in favor of abolishing the remaining property qualification, I do not want to be compelled to vote for every proposition that this Convention in its wisdom may see fit to incorporate in the Constitution; because they may adopt something which in my judgment may be wrong. Mr. KINNEY —I ask the gentleman if, in order to avoid the difficulty he presents of voting for propositions we disapprove, he would be in favor of referring all propositions of this Convention to the people for a separate submission, even though there were twenty of them. Mr HALE - That I will answer when we ascertain what the propositions are, to be submitted. But I will say this however, as there seems to be a disposition to put me through a course of catechism, that I should not be in favor of submitting twenty propositions to the people because I do not believe it would be proper and necessary that we should. My plan would be to take the leading articles of the Constitution as proposed to be amended - there would not be twenty —that would be considered vital propositions. There would not probably be more than three or four, and I would permitthe people voting on this Constitution to accept them or not. And, now Mr. Chairman, I will pass to the conSideration of the mode by which this submission can be made and obviate the objections which are urged to the proposition of the gentleman from gigs [Mr. Murphy], and, at the same time give eer citizen in the State an opportunity to signify his acceptance of the part of the proposed Constitution without approving the whole of it. I will Mafine myself now to the question of the exenson of the right of suffrage. What is the question? It is not, as I have stated before a question whether negroes shall be allowed to Vote or whether they are competent to vote. I hink the State of New York is estopped from tia'sig that question. There has never been a tile in its history when colored men have not had he ight to vote. Under the Constitution of, our first Constitution, there is no distinction whatever between the races. The property qualification was required of all voters. I have already stated what it was, a smaller amount for electors of members of the Assembly and a larger amount for the Senate. That continued up to the Constitution of the State from its adoption in 177T, until the adoption of the Constitution of 1821-a period of forty-four years. The Convention of 1821 abolished the distinction between Assembly and Senate electors, whether wisely or not, I cannot say-people have different opinions in regard to that-and they abolished the property qualification, except that they required that the man of color should have the same qualification now required, and they required all voters to be tax payers or persons exempt from taxation. When the report was made by the Committee on Suffrage in the Convention of 1821. the word "white, " was contained in the proposed Constitution, but Mr. Peter A. Jay of Westchester moved to strike out the word "white, " and after considerable debate it was stricken out; in favor of that motion you will find recorded such names as Kent, Van Vechten, Van Buren and Elisha Williams. The report of the committee was recommitted and they afterward reported a clause containing the proviso which now exists in our present Constitution, and I think precisely in the same words, in substance, that no man of color should have the right to vote unless ho had a freehold estate to the value of $250; and after a very animated debate it was finally adopted. The word "white" was not contained in the Constitution of 1821, and it has never been contained in any Constitution since. I was somewhat surprised that my friend. from Rensselaer [Mr. Seymour], in the remarks he made on Saturday, spoke of the amendment offered by the gentleman from Cayuga [Mr. C. C. Dwight] as an amendment proposing to strike out the word " white " in the Constitution. I was surprised that a gentleman of his great intelligence and historical knowledge should speak as if there was any such word in the Constitution to be stricken out. In fact, it has never been in any Constitution of the State of New York that I have been able to find. As I said before, the Convention of 1821 retaining a partial property qualification, inserted this proviso in regard to men of color. In 1826, the question was submitted to the people as to whether the remaining property qualification as to white men should be stricken out, and the people voted by an overwhelming majority, in favor of the proposition, and since then we have had no property qualification except as to the men of color. We then come down to the Constitution of 1846. That Constitution submitted this question, substantially in the same manner as proposed in the amendment of the gentleman from Kings [Mr. Murphy]. I submit, Mr. Chairman, that this historical statement shows that it is a question which it is eminently proper to submit separately. I know it is said, though I do not attach any weight to the fact -that it has been several times submitted to the people, and they have voted it down. But circumstances have changed, and I think the people of New York entertain different views on this subject from what they did in 1860, 302 when it was last submitted. But, if they would stand. Suppose another class of ballot was are against it, if there is a real appre- "for the amended Constitution except the judiciary hension that if it is submitted separately it article" or any other exception, with the relative will be defeated, what right have we, the repre- number of votes I have stated, then the suffrage sentatives of the people, elected by the legal provision would be carried, because with 300,000 voters and by the act under which we exist, re- votes for the amended Constitution and 200,000 quired to submit our work to them for their ap- for it except the judiciary clause (and with no proval, whatever be our private views, to say to other exception) would give a majority in favor of the people, even if you don't want this amend- abolishing the property qualification, but would ment you shall have it, or have no constitutional defeat the judiciary clause. In conclusion, I subreform on any subject. In favor, as I am, of doing mit that this plan, or one substantially like it, or away with the property qualification,still I say that accomplishing the same result, is to my mind, the it is not consistent with my ideas of duty and right, only one which is fair and just, and will enable to say that we will deprive the people of the right the people to vote freely and intelligently upon to express their views separately on this ques- the amendments which we shall propose. tion and to tell them that if their views on this Mr. COLAHAN - It is with no little diffidence question do not concur with ours, they shall I rise thus late to participate in this discussion. not have the benefit of those other reforms Originally I did not intend to say anything upon and improvements which they propose to sub- the subject, but so many extraneous matters of mit to them. I do not believe that we have a prejudicial effect have been referred to by my right to impose a penalty like this upon the peo- previous speakers, that I feel constrained, upon pie, for differing in their views from the opinions the part of my constituency, to say something in of the members of this Convention. As I said support of my position, and in support of my vote before, I have every confidence that they upon the amendment proposed by the honorable will not do this-that they will agree with the gentleman from Kings [Mr. Murphy]. majority of this Convention, that this property Mr. VAN CAMPEN-I now move that the qualification should be stricken out. I will not Committee rise, report progress, and ask leave to make a formal proposition of a mode of submis- sit again. sion now, because I think the adoption of it now The CHAIRMAN-The Chair is of the opinion would be premature, but I will state what I con- that that motion cannot be made while debate is sider to be a feasible plan, to give every person proceeding, unless the gentleman speaking will the opportunity to have his vote counted as he give way. wishes in relation to the adoption of the Con- Mr. COLAHAN -I will give way. stitution; to have three classes of ballots. The CHAIRMAN- The gentleman from Kings Let one class be simply "for the amended [Mr. Colahan], having given way, the gentleman Constitution." of course, if that ballot receives a from Cattaraugus [Mr. Van Campen], moves that majority of the votes cast upon the question, the the committee rise, report progress, and ask leave Constitution is amended, in all its parts, as we to sit again. propose. Then I would have another ballot The question was put on the motion of Mr. Van "against the amended Constitution." If that Campen, and it was declared carried. ballot gets a majority, our whole work is defeated. Whereupon the committee rose and the PresiThen I would have a third class of ballots "for dent resumed the Chair in Convention. the amended Constitution except as to the aboli- Mr. ALVORD from the Committee of the tion of the property qualification," or " except as Whole, reported that the committee had had to the article on suffrage," or "except as to the under consideration, the report of the Committee judiciary article," or whatever exceptions the on the Right of Suffrage and the Qualifications to Convention in its wisdom should choose to provide Hold Office, and had made some progress therein, for. The result of this plan would be that those but not having gone through therewith had who wish to preserve some parts of the old Con- instructed their Chairman to report that fact to stitution and reject amendments, would have the the Convention, and ask leave to sit again. laboring oar. The apathy which the gentleman The question was then put on granting leave, from Lewis [Mr. E. A. Brown] apprehends, which and it was declared carried. would prevent people voting on this suffrage On motion of Mr. AXTELL the Convention question, would inure to the benefit of those to adjourned. be benefited by the provision which we shall propose. The opponents of it would be obliged WEDNESDAY, JULY 17th, 1867. to.have a majority of the votes-either of The Convention met at 11 o'clock A. M. votes "against the amended Constitution," or of Prayer was offered by Rev. 0. D. W. BRIDGEsuch votes added to those "for the amended MAN. Constitution except the suffrage article," in order The Journal of yesterday was read by 'the to prevent the suffrage amendment from being SECRETARY and was approved. adopted. I submit that that would be a fair and Mr. HUNTINGTON presented the memorial of just proposition. Suppose there should be 800,000 Hon. John P. Jervis, of Rome, in reference to the votes cast in this State on this subject, 300,000 "for management of the canals of the State. the amended Constitution," 300,000 "against the Which was referred to the Committee on Canals. amended Constitution," and 200,000 "for the Mr. GOULD presented the petition of citizens amended Constitution except the suffrage article," of New Lebanan, Columbia county, in favor of then the extension of suffrage would be defeated, restraining the Legislature from making approand the rest of the Constitution which we frame priations for sectarian institutions. 303 Which was referred to the Committee on the powers and Duties ot the Legislature. Mr. GROSS presented the petition of citizens of Williamsburgh in favor of regulation of the traffic in fermented liquors and wines. Which was referred to the Committee on Adulterated Liquors. Mr. EDDY presented the petition of Rev. Charles Gillette, and sixty-two others, in favor of & clause in the Constitution prohibiting the granting of public money to sectarian institutions. Which was referred to the Committee on the Powers and Duties of the Legislature. Mr. BICKFORD presented the petition of Chas. D. Haynes, and thirty-four others, citizens of Henderson, Jefferson county, upon the same subject. Which took the same reference. Mr. STRATTON presented the petition of Rev. Dr. John Dowling, and 124 others, citizens of New York city upon the same subject. Which took the same reference. Mr. MERRITT from the Committee on the Organization of the Legislature, etc., submitted a report. Mr. MERRITT-The committee sir, have decided not to report in writing, but to submit an article. They wish to reserve the right to submit a written report for the future action of the Convention. The SECRETARY proceeded to read the report as follows: The Committee on the Legislature, its organization and the number, apportionment, election, tenure of office, and compensation of its members, have prepared and submit the following article of the Constitution, and ask to be discharged from the further consideration of all propositions which have been referred to them by the Convention: SECTION 1. The legislative power of this State shall be vested in a Senate and Assembly. Any elector of the State shall be eligible to the office of Senator or member of Assembly. ~ 2. The Senate shall consist of thirty-three members. The State shall be divided into eight senatorial districts. There shall be four Senators in each district. The first district shall consist of the city and county of New York and shall be entitled to one additional Senator. The second district shall consist of the counties ofSuffolk, Queens, Kings, Richmond and Westchester. The third district shall consist of the counties of Putnam Rockland, Dutchess, Orange, Ulster, Greene, Columbia and Rensselaer. The fourth district shall consist of the counties f Albany, Schenectady, Fulton, Hamilton, Saratga, Washington, Warren, Essex, Clinton, Frankln and St. Lawrence. The fifth district shall consist of the counties of Jefferson, Lewis, Oneida, Onondaga, Oswego, erkimer and Montgomery. The sixth district shall consist of the counties of Otsego, Schoharie, Delaware, Sullivan, Broome, Chenango, Madison, Cortland, Tioga, Tompkins, hemung and Schuyler. The seventh district shall consist of the counties f Yates, Seneca, Ontario. Cayuga, Wayne, Monroe, Livingston and Steuben. The eighth district shall consist of the counties of Orleans, Niagara, Erie, Genesee, Wyoming, Allegany, Cattaraugus and Chautauqua The whole Senate shall be chosen at the first election held under this Constitution; they shall classify themselves, so that one Senator in each district shall go out of office at the end of each year, and the additional Senator for the first district at the end of the fourth year. After the expiration of their terms inder such classification the terms of their office shall be four years. ~ 3. An enumeration of the inhabitants of the State shall be taken, under the direction of the Legislature, in the year one thousand eight hun. dred and seventy-five, and at the end of every ten years thereafter; and the said districts-except the first district-shall be so altered by the Legis. lature at the first session after the return of every enumeration, that each district shall contain as nearly as may be an equal number of inhabitants who are citizens of the State, and shall remain unaltered until the return of another enumeration, and shall consist of contiguous territory. No county shall be divided in the formation of a senate district. ~ 4. The Assembly shall consist of one hundred and thirty-nine members who shall be chosen by counties, and shall be apportioned among the several counties of the State as nearly as may be according to the number of inhabitants thereof, who are citizens of the State, and shall hold office for one year. Each county shall be entitled to at least one member, except that the counties of Fulton and Hamilton shall elect together until the population of the county of Hamilton shall according to the'ratio entitle it to a member. No new county shall be erected unless its population shall entitle it to a member. The first apportionment of members of Assembly shall be made by the Legislature, at its first session after the adoption of this Constitution,upon the enumeration of the inhabitants of this State, who are citizens thereof, made in the year one thousand eight hundred and sixty-five. A like apportionment shall be made by the Legislature at its first session, after every such enumeration. Every apportionment when made, shall remain unaltered until another enumeration shall be made. ~ 5. The members of the Legislature shall receive for their services an annual salary of one thousand dollars, and ten cents for each mile they shall travel in going to and returning from their place of meeting by the most usual route. The speaker of the Assembly shall receivean additional compensation equal to one-half of his salary as a member. ~ 6. No member of the Legislature shall be appointed to any civil office within this State by the Governor, the Governor and Senate or by the Legislature during the time for which he shall have been elected, and all such appointments and all votes given for any such member therefor shall be void. Nor shall any person being a member of Congress or holding any judicial or military office under the United States, hold a seat in the Legislature. If any person shall, after his election as a member of the Legislature, be elected to Congress or appointed to any office 304 civil or military, under the government of the United States, his acceptance thereof, shall vacate his seat. ~ 7. The elections of Senators and members of Assembly under this Constitution shall be held on the Tuesday succeeding the first Monday of November, unless otherwise directed by law. The first election to be in the year one thousand eight hundred and sixty-eight. The Senators and members of Assembly who may be in office on the first day of January, one thousand eight hundred and sixty-eight, shall hold their offices until and including the thirty-first day of December of that year, and no longer. ~ 8. A majority of each House shall constitute a quorum to do business. Each House shall determine the rules of its own proceedings, and be the judge of the election returns and qualifications of its own members; shall choose its own officers; and the Senate shall choose a temporary president when the Lieutenant-Governor shall not attend as president, or shall act as Governor. ~ 9. Each House shall keep a journal of its proceedings and publish the same, except such parts as may require secrecy. The doors of each House shall be kept open, except when the public welfare shall require secrecy. Neither House shall, without the consent of the other, adjourn for more than two days. EDWIN A. MERRITT, Chairman, ERASTUS COOKE, RICHARD U. SHERMAN, CLAUDIUS L. MONELL, GEORGE BARKER, NATHANIEL JARVIS, JR. I concur with this report except as to the number of members of Assembly and their manner of election. M. H. MERWIN. The report was laid on the table and ordered to be printed. Mr. MERWIN, from the satme committee submitted a minority report as follows: The undersigned, one of the members of the Committee on the Legislature, its Organization. etc., in dissenting from the report of that committee, as to the number of the members of Assembly and their manner of election, presents the following as a substitute for Section 4 in that report. ~ 4. The term of office of members of the Assembly shall be one year, and their number shall be ascertained by dividing the aggregate of the population of the State, according to the last and each successive enumeration, excluding aliens, by twenty thousand, adding one additional mnember in case the fraction over exceeds five thousand; but such number shall never exceed two hundred and fifty. The members of Assembly shall be apportioned among the several counties of the State, by the Legislature, as nearly as may be according to the number of their respective inhabitants excluding aliens, and shall be chosen by single districts. The first apportionment shall be made at the first session of the Legislature after the adoption of this Constitution. The several boards of supervisors in such counties as may be entitled to more than one member, upon such apportionment, shall assemble at such time as may be provided by law and divide their respect. ive counties into assembly districts, equal to the number of members of Assembly to which such counties are entitled by such apportionment, and shall cause to be filed in the office of the Secretary of State, and of the clerks of their respective counties, a description of such assembly districts, specifying the number of each district, and the population thereof, according to the last preceding State enumeration, as near as can be ascertained. Each assembly district shall contain, as nearly as may be, an equal number of inhabitants excluding aliens, and shall consist of convenient and contiguous territory; but no town shall be divided in the formation of such districts. The Legislature, at its first session after the return of every enumeration, shall ascertain the number of members of Assembly and apportion them among the several counties of the State, in the manner aforesaid, and the boards of supervisors in such counties as may be entitled, under such re-apportionment, to more than one member, shall assemble at such time as shall be provided by law, and divide such counties into assembly districts, in the manner herein directed; and the apportionment and districts so to be made shall remain unaltered until another enumeration shall be taken under the provisions of the preceding section. Every county shall be entitled to one member of Assembly, except that the counties of Fulton and Hamilton shall elect together, until the population of the county of Hamilton shall, according to the ratio, entitle it to a member. No new county shall be erected unless its population shall entitle it to a member. My reasons for this are briefly, as follows: The Constitution of 1777 provided that the Assembly should consist of not less than 70 members, and might be increased by a definite ratio to 300, as the population increased. The amendments of 1801 fixed the number at 100. with a provision for their increase by a certain ratio to 150. The Constitution of 1821 fixed the number at 128, which has since been unchanged. The population of the State in 1786 was 238.897; in 1800, 588,603; in 1820, 1,302,812, and is now about 4,000,000. One of the great fundamental ideas of Am erican polity is that the legislature should consist of two bodies, one of which, being more numerous than the other, should primarily represent the people, and the nearer it comes to the people and the more directly it emanates from them, the more in accordance it is with a republican form of government. Such a body stands in the place and stead of the people-it is theoretically and practically a representative body, its members are simply agents. The number of these is, in the first instance arbitrary, but the larger it is the more nearly it represents the people. The number should fairly represent the population and still not be so large as to prevent or interfere with the proper discharge of their legislative duties. As population increased the number should increase up to the limit of availability. If 128 was the right number in 1821, it should be increased now as a matter of right, unless there is some good 305 reason for not doing so. The only objection ter than to our own. His fear of the tyranny of to it that I know of is, that a larger number majorities has not much boundation in fact with will interfere with the proper transaction of us. Still it is our duty to afford every facility business. Is this true in fact? The House of possible for the proper expression in our legislaCommons, in Great Britain, is composed of over tive bodies of the views of all our citizens. The 600 members. The legislative body in France proposition that any one receiving a certain number was composed of 267 members prior to 1863, of votes, wherever in the State they may be cast, and since that time, of 383. The House of is intepded to accomplish this result. But will Deputies, in Prussia, has 350 members; and in it do this? If the people act, spontaneously, Italy, 443. The House of Representatives of the that is without concert or agreement, in the United States has 244 members; the lower house selection of their candidates, their number will in Massachusetts, 240; in Connecticut, 237. In undoubtedly be large, and but a few of the more all these cases, and others that might be cited, known or popular will get the required number there has been no difficulty in transacting busi- of votes. And then, in determining which of ness. It seems to me, therefore, that we can those receiving a less number, shall go to fill up safely provide for an increase of the Assembly, the necessary number of the legislative body, as graduated by the increase of population, and if much injustice may be done to minorities as would we can do it with safety it is our duty to do be in any other system. If, to avoid this, a plan it. The public wants and feelings call for it. of union or co-operation, before casting the votes, Many consider that a larger body will be is determined on, this would lead inevitably to less liable to outside influences, less subject the county or State Convention, which should fix to the temptation of mercenary motives. All or nominate the candidates for the several shades of opinion or interest will stand a better localities. This result would not, I imagine, be chance of being represented in a larger body than satisfactory, its evils would overbalance any good in a small one. My idea is to lay down or estab- that might arise from it. lish a rule or principle which will admit of expan- By the cumulative system, recommended by sion, so that the Constitution in that respect will Mr. Mill, any elector, in case more than one memnot need remodeling every decade. A ratio is ber was to be elected in the district, instead of preferred to a fixed number inasmuch as it will do putting on to his ticket several names, might vote justice to future increase and follows the precedent for one man, so that it would count for him as of the Constitution of the United States as well as many as there were members to be elected, and our earlier Constitutions. thus cumulate the vote of his favorite candidate. The ratio of 1 to 20,000 representative popula- This of course would allow a large minority to tion commends itself by its adaptation to the choose some of the members, and would to that smaller counties, and it will produce a gradual extent be beneficial. Taking into account, howincrease from the present number. This ratio will ever, the habits of our people, it is doubtful give now 172 members, and in 1875 about 200 whether an innovation of this kind would be adbut I think the numbers should never exceed 250. visable, if the end can be approximately reached Members of Assembly should be elected by in any other way. As a matter of fact, minorisingle districts as now, because ties, as a whole, have always been fairly repre1. No change has been called for in that respect sented in the lower House, much more so than in by the people, or is needed by the necessities of the the Senate, resulting entirely from the less size times. Prior to 1846 the people had elected by of the districts. Retain the feature of single discounties as now proposed, ever since 1777, and tricts together with the privilege, to any district, the experience of seventy years had convinced of choosing a citizen living in any portion of the them of the necessity of single districts, in order State, and I think as much will be accomplished to attain a correct and responsible representation. toward representing minorities as would be by The larger the district and the more that are any other plan. elected together, the less and more divided is the 4. Another advantage of single districts is that feeling of responsibility, the less direct is the nominations will not be as much under the conaccountability. trol of central, political regencies. In every large 2. The people are more nearly represented, county, at its political center, there is a party their feelings and views, more exactly expressed. power, that would in a great measure control Whether laws are local or general, each locality nominations, if made at one time and place for the may have its peculiar views, or be peculiarly whole county. This is not right to the mass of affected, and they have a right to have as direct the people, especially in electing the more numerall expression of their views as possible. ous and popular body that peculiarly represents 3. Minorities will be better represented. The them. It is no answer to this to say, even if true question of the representation of minorities is (which I deny) that better men might or an important one, and is attracting universal would be usually chosen. The same principle attention. All will admit its propriety and might leave it to a State convention, or to an justice in a representative form of government. Albany or New York regency to choose all our It is not a partisan question, inasmuch as officers. The question is, how shall it be the party in the majority this year may arranged so that the mass of the people can exbe in the minority next year. But the trouble is press their own views by themselves, and not to fx on some system that will be practical in its through any self-appointed guardians or political Operations. and understood by and acceptable to managers. This is more important in view of the the people. The ingenious theories of Mr. Hare, fact that the Senate, by the plan now proposed, are more adapted to the evils of the British sys- is placed farther from the people, and will be a 39 306 more conservative and independent body. We should not retrogade in this matter. The intelligence of the people can be safely trusted. If improper nominations are made, the remedy of disregarding them can be more effectually applied and better men be more easily chosen. All which is respectfully submitted, M. H. MERWIN. The PRESIDENT - The report of the minority will be referred to the Committee of the Whole and will be printed. There being no objection the Committee will be discharged from the further consideration of all propositions heretofore submitted to it. Mr. DEVELIN called up the resolution offered by him yesterday. The SECRETARY proceeded to read the resolution, as follows: Resolved, That the Comptroller of the city of New York be requested to furnish this Convention with a statement of the amounts paid by him or his predecessors in office, to charitable institutions, including juvenile asylums and houses of refuge since the year 1847, with the names of the institutions respectively, to which such amounts have been paid and the sum paid to each. Mr. DEVELIN-My object in offering that resolution is to obtain information for the Convention in regard to the granting of moneys to charitable and sectarian institutions. I believe resolutions similar in substance, have been passed by this Convention, requesting information from the Comptroller of the State. It is well known that the city of New York has made large contributions to charitable institutions. I think the information called for by this resolution is quite as important as the one requiring information from the Comptroller of the State. Mr. GREELEY- I only wish to know before we make this inquiry whether it involves a considerable expense. I understand from the chairman of the Committee on Contingent Expenses [Mr. Ferry) that we have already incurred an expense amounting in a single county to about $1,900, by moving this sort of inquiry. I certainly should not have voted for such an inquiry or patiently submitted to it if I had st pposed it would involve expense. I should like to know from the mover of this resolution whether the answer to this inquiry would involve any considerable expense or not. Mr. DEVELIN-I cannot answer the gentleman positively, but I can give the Convention and the gentleman who makes the inquiry what the experience and practice of that office has been heretofore. Different Legislatures have called upon the Comptroller and other city officials for information, involving as much labor as will be necessary to give this information, and no charge has ever been made by the city officials for the information thus furnished or the labor that was expended in obtaining it. I presume there will be no expense incurred at all in furnishing this information to the Convention. Mr. FOLGER —I desire to know from the chairman of the Committee on Contingent Expenses, for what these charges are made-the 1,900. The PRESIDENT-The Chair will inform the gentleman that his inquiry is hardly relevant to the pending order of business. Mr. FERRY-Perhaps I ought not to sit here in silence and hear remarks made which are incorrect. The gentleman from Westchester [Mr. Greeley] has received his information, not from me, and I do not know from whom he has obtained it. I have made no statement of that character, but I have no doubt, the gentleman received the information from some source. I have been informed by the clerk that bills of this character, to what amount I am unable to say, have been received by him, and that he has information from various sources that others are to be presented. Mr. OPDYKE - I hope the mover of the resolution [Mr. Develin] will consent to enlarge the scope of his inquiry so as to embrace the value of the lands thus donated. Mr. DEVELIN - I have no objection to that amendment if the gentleman will specify the time. If he desires to ascertain how much property has been granted to institutions of the Catholic Church, the colored orphan asylum, and other institutions in the city of New York, he would have to go back further than my resolution covers. My resolution only goes back to 1847. I think many of those grants were made thirty or forty years ago. Mr. OPDYKE- I had no desire to change the period of inquiry embraced in the gentleman's resolution, but I wish for whatever period it may embrace, that the information should be in full. Mr. DEVELIN -I will accept the amendment. Mr. T. W. DWIGHT-I have drawn a clause which I will submit as an amendment to the resolution, as follows: "He is also requested to state what grants of land or real estate have been made by or under the authority of the city of New York, or executed by any officer therein, within the same period, to charitable or religious corporations or institutions, whether under lease or otherwise, and when under lease, to state the amount of rent reserved." Mr. DEVELIN - I will accept the amenument of the gentleman if he will add to it as follows: "And the conditions or covenants contained in the grant." Mr. T. W. DWIGHT - Certainly. The question was then put on the resolution of Mr. Develin as amended, and it was declared adopted. Mr. CURTIS offered the following resolution: Resolved, That the Commissioners of the Land Office be requested to communicate to the Convention their proceedings, under Chapter 481 of of the Laws of 1866, authorizing the sale of lands donated to this State by the United States. Which was laid over under the rule. Mr. A. D. RUSSELL offered the following preamble and resolution: WHEREAS, The creation of districts which are formed by the Legislature by connecting several counties together for certain purposes and confiding their interests, so far as connected with those purposes, to hands of the State officers is a proceeding of doubtful utility, and calculated to destroy the civil division of the State into counties, and has the effect, which is inconsistent 307 with the genius or spirit of republican institu- Convention, after having prepared the report ii tions of centralizing power in the State Govern- response to a resolution of the Convention sent it ment, which upon every principle of Democracy, down directly to the printer, and I am inform'd should be wileded by localities; and by the Auditor it requires the passage of this WHEREAS, It is invidious for the Legislature to resolution to have the report already printed laid assume that certain parts of the State, in refer- upon our table. ence to mere matters of morality, demand legisla- The PRESIDENT- The Chair will inform the tion, fundamentally different from that which is gentleman that the 41st rule provides: There shall applicable to other portions of the State, and to be printed, as of course, and without any special enact laws adapted to and proceeding from such order, 800 copies of all reports of committees on an assumption on its part; and the subject of constitutional revision, and of all WHEREAS, The odiousness of such legislation reports and communications made in pursuance of has been strikingly exhibited in an act of the the order or request of the Convention; and 800 Legislature of this State, passed April 14, 1866, copies of the Journal; which number shall be entitled "An act to regulate the sale of intoxi- denominated the usual number. eating liquors within the Metropolitan Police Mr. PROSSER-Notwithstanding that rule, District of the State of New York," which dis- sir, the report not having been sent direct to the trict is made to embrace the city and county of Convention, but sent to the printer by the AudiNew York, as though their interests in that par- tor, I think it requires that resolution. ticular could not, with safety or propriety, be The PRESIDENT - The Secretary of the Conmanaged or controlled by officers appointed or vention will now send it to the printer, and it will elected within those localities under laws uniform be printed under the rule. in their character in regard to the other portions Mr. STRATTON called up for consideration the of the State; therefore, resolution offered by him yesterday. Resolved, That a provision ought to be inserted The SECRETARYfproceeded to read the resoluin the Constitution of this State, as amended and tion, as follows: proposed by this Convention, to the effect that Resolved, That the Comptroller of the city of the sale of intoxicating liquors within the different New York be and he is hereby instructed to counties of this State, should be regulated (if at make full report to this Convention of the net all) by legislative enactments, uniform in their sums annually received from the several sources character and applicable to every portion of the herein enumerated and applied through the sinkState, and conferring upon appropriate officers, ing fund for the redemption of the city debt, or to appointed or elected within the respective counties the payment of interest on the city debt during of this State, the powers and duties requisite or the years from 1847 to 1866 inclusive, and a incident to such legislative regulation. statement showing the expenses incurred in each Resolved, Further, that licenses to sell liquors of said years, in granting such licenses, collecting at retail, granted in pursuance of exist- such fees, and in legal efforts to enforce payment ing laws, and for a specific term designated by or collect penalties for non-compliance to law or law, ought to be deemed irrevocable unless for ordinance in each of such cases; whether such cause to be specified in the laws under which expenses were allowed by the mayor and comsuch licenses are issued, and ought to be regarded mon council of the city, or by the board of superas contracts, within the provision of the Constitu- visors of the county, namely: tion of the United States, prohibiting a State 1. For licenses to pawnbrokers, and to dealers from passing a law impairing the obligation of in second-hand furniture, metals or clothes. contracts- and that a provision, embodying this 2. For licenses for hackney coaches and drivers. principle, be inserted in the Constitution of this 3. For fees of market privileges and market State, as amended and proposed by this Conven- rents. tion. 4. For majority fees. Which was referred to the Committee on the 5. For fines and penalties. Powers and Duties of the Legislature. 6. For fees and fines collected by clerks and Mr. SCHOONMAKER offered the following courts. resolution: 7. For tavern and excise licenses. Resolved, That the Secretary of State report to Mr. DEVELIN - I beg leave to ask the gentlethis Convention, the number of leases or grants man the object he has in view in asking for the given by the State or Commissioners of the Land information required by this resolution? Office, which are still outstanding and unexpired, Mr. STRATTON -The resolution itself shows the names of the lessees or grantees, the rental, the reasons pretty plainly why this is called for. and a brief description of such property. I am, aside from what is stated in the resolution as Which was laid over under the rule. to the information itself, enabled to say that some Mr. PROSSER offered the following resolution: of these items which are named are of such a.esolved That the report of the Auditor of the nature that the report will show that the expenCatal Department, in response to a resolution of sea of collecting them are twice and three times tis Convention under date of June 26th, be the amount of moneys received for the licenses, printed. and that instead of furnishing a source of revenue The PRESIDENT —The Chair will inform the for the sinking fund, they are really a source of gentleman that it will be printed as a matter of expense to the city of New York. We want course, under the standing rule of the Convention. this information so that we may, in Mr. PROSSER —This is different from ordinary fixing the different departments of the city reports. The Auditor during the recess of this government, if they are to be fixed by this Con 308 vention, so consolidate, and so arrange these of any such lease, the appraised value of such different departments that there may be derived lands exclusive of any increased value from per. - from these varions sources a revenue to the city, manent improvements hereafter made thereon and that they shall not become a burden to the by such tenant in fencing, buildings, and draining, city. This information will show us what remedy and the Legislature shall determine the manner we need to apply, and without the information, it of the appointment of such appraisers and estab. is impossible for the Convention to determine lish regulations for making such appraisal and what remedies to pursue. payment. Mr. DEVELIN-It seems to me that the in- Mr. VERPLANCK-I move that the resolution formation called for by that resolution is entirely do lie upon the table. unnecessary for the action of this Conven- Mr. NELSON-I hope the Convention will not tion, All these revenues mentioned in the vote to lay the resolution upon the table. The resolution are pledged by law in payment of the city history of the past, and the contest in this Statedebt, and it would be a violation of public faith for The PRESIDENT-The Chair would inform this Convention to take any action by which the the gentleman that the motion is not debatable. amounts derived from those sources shall be di- The question was then put on the motion to lay verted from the object to which they have been the resolution on the table, and it was declared to pledged by legislation for nearly twenty years. be lost. This resolution looks more like the appointment Mr. SEYMOUR — I think the subject alluded of a committee of inquiry and investigation, to in this resolution is a very important one, and which might be proper in the Legislature, but one which certainly concerns the people who live certainly it cannot be neceesary to put it in in the center of the State. I hope it will be the Constitution and make it part of the referred to the proper committee, and I would fundamental law, how many licenses should be designate the Committee on Industrial Interests as granted in the city of New York, and how the the appropriate committee to which it should be money received for those licenses shall be applied, referred. and how the money received from the fees of Mr. WEED -It seems to me that the Commitmarket privileges shall be appropriated, or the tee on the Judiciary is the proper one. to which a money collected by the clerks of courts. All resolution of this kind should be referred. As I these things are inappropriate for the considera- gather from the terms of the resolution, it pro. tion of the Convention; but in order that it poses to dispose of certain interests in this State may take an intelligent direction and that that are known as the anti-rent interest. It we may have a report as to whether these seems to me that this question is certainly ore things are necessary, I move that that reso- which should go to the Judiciary Committee in lution be referred to the Committee on Cities, order to have the light of their judicial knowledge for them to report to this Convention whether upon the subject before a report is made. I they consider the information requested by this make that motion. resolution as important for the Convention and for The PRESIDENT announced the question to their action. be upon the motion to refer to the Committee on The question was put on the motion of Mr. Industrial Interests. Develin, and it was declared carried. Mr. CONGER —I think that the suggestion Mr. NELSON-I desire to offer the following made by my friend on my right [Mr. Weed], is resolution. I wish to say that I am not the one that should unquestionably meet the approba' author of the resolution, but it has been drawn tion of this body. It is not a resolution affecting up by citzens of the county in which I reside, simply the industrial interests of the State at who wish to see if something cannot be done to large, because, in whatever view you may look at relieve them of the burdens under which they the plan which has been submitted, it is a queslabor by reason of the title of their lands being tion of right, and it is a question of right to tied up by perpetual leases. I have left a blank be determined judicially. What is the proposifor the committee to which it is to be referred for tion? Why, that in cases of leases for life, when the very good reason that it did not occur to my a party who has the fee dies, then the question mind which was the appropriate committee. of the reversion is to be treated entirely as if The SECRETARY proceeded to read the reso- it did not exist, and the interest of the tenant lution as follows: is to be treated as if the lease were a deed in fee Resolved, That the Committee on the Judiciary instead of a lease for life. Is not that a judicial be instructed to inquire into and report as to the question? If this resolution had referred to the propriety of inserting in the Constitutbn a provi- question which has agitated this State principally sion in substance as follows: upon the subjects of grants in fee, reserving the " The owner or owners of any lease or leases leaseof any piece or parcel of land in this State, of The PRESIDENT —The Chair will ask the fifty acres or more in extent, used for agricultural gentleman from Rockland [Mr. Conger] to conpurposes, the lease or leases by which the same fine his remarks to the question of reference. is held depending upon a life or lives, Mr. CONGER - It is my desire to do so, and I shall be entitled, upon the death of the wish to show to this Convention without going person or persons upon whom any such lease into the merits of the question, that it is a judicial shall have depended, to become the owner or question, and not a question affecting merely the owners of such lands so leased in fee simple industrial interests of the State. absolute, upon paying to the person or persons to Mr. SEYMOUR-After the remarks of the whom such lands would revert, at the expiration gentleman from Clinton, [Mr. Weed], I will with 309 draw my motion and consent that it be referred prescribed by which certain citizens shall be to the Judiciary Committee. designated from the body of the population of the The PRESIDENT announced the question to be State to sit in court and dispose of such questions. upon the motion to refer to the Judiciary Com- This is a question of abstract right which mittee. should go into the Bill of Rights, and nowhere Mr. FOLGER-Is the motion amendable? else, and should properly go to that committee. The PRESIDENT-The Chair holds that it is Mr. PAIGE-It seems to me that the Commitnot amendable. tee on the Judiciary is the proper one to which to Mr. FOLGER-May we not move to refer to refer this question. As I understand it this is a another committee? proposition to consider how these leases should The PRESIDENT - The Chair holds not. be extinguished. It is therefore a question of Mr. FOLGER - Then sir, I trust this motion individual right, and the question arises how these will not prevail. In the arrangement of the busi- leases are to be disposed of, and how the tenants ness of the Convention which was adopted on the are to be released from their obligations and payreport of the Committee of 16, it will be remem- ment on the lands for an equivalent. It is therebered that a portion of the duties of the Conven- fore a judicial question. If these parties under tion were allotted to the consideration of different these leases on either side have a vested right committees. This proposition of the gentleman under this contract, we have no power as a Confrom Dutchess [Mr. Nelson], refers entirely as I vention to put in the Constitution anything to understand it, to a subject that is alluded to in the deprive them of those rights, for they are proBill of Rights, Section 14. tected by the Constitution of the United States, "No lease or grant of agricultural land, for a and therefore I think the motion to refer to the longer period than twelve years, hereafter made, Committee on Judiciary is a proper motion and in which shall be reserved any rent or service of the proper reference. any kind, shall be valid." Mr. DUGANNE-I desire only to say that this That I think is more cognate to the matter of the entire subject, involving the anti-rent condition of resolution than perhaps any other portion of the affairs in certain counties, has been before the Constitution. Section 15 "All fines, quarter sales, Committee on Industrial Interests, and has been or other like restraints upon alienation reserved examined by them to some extent, and they proin any grant of land, hereaftel to be made, shall pose to submit a clause to go into the Bill of be void," also refers to the same subject. These Rights, which they think will cover that subject. sections in the first article of the Constitution which Propositions with regard to all matters which were adopted, grew out of the same feeling and seem to appertain to that subject, might therefore the same circumstances which have originated properly be referred to the Committee on Industhe resolution of the gentleman from Dutcless trial Interests, which already has charge of the [Mr. Nelson], known commonly to us as the anti- subject. rent feeling, prevailing in this State. The Con- Mr. McDONALD -I shall vote for the refervention of 1846 took hold of the question, and ence to the Committee on the Bill of Rights for pursued it to a certain extent, and their convic- this reason only. It is well known that the Comtions upon the subject are embodied in the article mittee on the Judiciaryof the Constitution which is known as the Bill The PRESIDENT -The Chair would inform of Rights. The proposition of the gentleman from the gentleman that there is no such motion before Dutchess is to follow a little further in that direc- the Convention. tion, and to go still further with the question of Mr. McDONALD -Then, sir, I shall vote the anti-rent matter in this State; in fact, to end against the motion to refer to the Committee on it; so far to end it by the Constitution of the the Judiciary, for the reason that that committee State that it shall no longer trouble the courts and is already burdened, so to speak, with a full share no longer occupy the time of the Legislature. To of the labor allotted to committees of this Conmy mind this is a question appropriate for the vention. I find on the Committee on the Bill of consideration of the Committee upon the Pre- Rights such names as Mr. Evarts, of New York, amble and Bill of Rights, and therefore, I trust and the honorable gentleman from Schenectady the motion to refer to the Judiciary Committee [Mr. Paige] and I am very sure if there is any will not prevail. Taking what seems to be the question about any vested right they will be arrangement of business as adopted by the Con- as able to consider it and to present it to this vention, and following the plan of the Constitu- Convention as anybody on the Judiciary Comtion of 1846, I think that would be the appropriate mittee; and I am also quite sure that their Committee. It is an abstract question referring to labors are not as burdensome or as great as constitutional right and the rights of the citizens, those of the Judiciary Committee. I am thereand taking away what might be called the vested fore opposed to this reference to the Judiciary right which cannot be taken away except by Committee for the reasons I have stated, and I alterations of the Constitution. The Committee on think the resolution ought to be referred to either the Judiciary has not to do with questions of con- the Committee on Industrial Interests, who have stitltional right. It has to do with the arrangement already considered the subject, or to the Committee of some body which shall decide those questions. on the Bill of Rights who are equally able to That is all. The Judiciary Committee does not sit decide upon this question. Upon abstract questions, and propose to enlighten The question was then put on the motion to by their labor and reports this Convention as to refer to the Committee on the Judiciary, and it abstract questions. It has only to determine and was declared to be lost. report to this Convention how a system shall be Mr. C. C. DWIGHT moved that the resolution 310 be referred to the Committee on the Preamble the gift of that suffrage would of necessity injure and the Bill of Rights. my country and affect my race. This question, sir The Convention then resolved itself into a is a question of expediency, a question of taste and Committee of the Whole on the report of the association. and I oppose such an equalization, for Committee on the Right of Suffrage and the the reason, sir, that you avoid obnoxious and Qualifications to Hold Office; Mr. ALVORD, of dangerous company. It is said that we owe the Onondaga, in the chair. suffrage to the negro for his loyalty, and that our The CHAIRMAN announced the question to Union would not have been saved were it not for be upon the amendment offered by Mr. Murphy to the efforts of negroes. This, sir, is an insult to the the amendment offered by Mr. C. C. Dwight. American people, for I believe the white men of Mr. COLAHAN - It is with no little diffidence this country can control and prosper it, and I have I rise thus late, to participate in this discussion. never yet discovered an issue of intelligence, hero. Originally it was not my intention to say anything ism, and loyalty to be born from the union of ignoupon the subject, but so many extraneous matters rance and slavery. I believe true courage, so have been referred to by previous speakers that I necessary to the successful soldier. can only ema. feel, that on behalf of my constituency and my- nate from independence and mental and moral deself I should say something in explanation of my velopement. When in Virginia during the war I position and in support of my vote upon the asked one of these slaves, who had been transamendment proposed by the honorable gentleman formed into a Northern recruit, and dressed in blue from Kings. In the course of this discussion some coat and brass buttons, who George Washington assertions have been made, that in my opinion was; he said he knowed nuffin about him. were in very bad taste and out of place. I Some other person asked him who was Jesus will take occasion to refer to them here- Christ, he scratched his head and laughed and after. It seems to me, sir, that the position replied, that he did'nt care, for he was now goin' of many democratic members on this floor to take care of hisself. No it was not loyalty (and I can speak positively for myself) that made the negro fight in our ranks. He had on the suffrage question is very improperly under- no chance of knowing what loyalty meant; it was stood, and that there is a pitiable effort on the dread of hard labor and danger at home that drove part of some gentlemen on the other side, to him inside of our lines and inability to get other identify those who oppose the extension of negro employment when he reached there. The negro suffrage with those who opposed the abolition of north was induced by novelty and big bounties slavery. For my part, as a matter of principle, and no doubt the negro both north and south was I am opposed generally to property qualifications, generally very much influenced by remembrances for I believe the possession of property has much of the harshness and sufferings of slavery; but tendency in making owners use the worst loyalty never troubled either his heart or brain. influences on government in all countries, because I sir, always detested the institution of slavery and the inducement is held out to them to advance were any measure before this body tending to the their own private interests. I would much destruction of a wrong or supporting the estabrather, sir, have submitted to the people of lshment of a right, no one would feel warmer in this State the question whether they wish advocating the same than myself. I never could the extension of the right of suffrage at all to consent, however, to the destruction of this the negro. Were this question to be submitted republic for the destruction of slavery, and in I don't hesitate in saying that I would most this respect differed with the humanitarians. I certainly vote No l But if the question of suf- never could join their humanitarian choristers in frage to the negro in some manner is already set- singing: tled, I would have that suffrage free and un- "Tear down the flaunting lie, shackled. I believe that there are few gentlemen Half-mast the starry flag; on this floor who support suffrage as a natural Insult no sunny sky right, and that the fact of it being a political priv- With hate's polluted rag." ilege is well understood. In the language of a I wished, sir, while reprobating and regretting the talented and prominent abolitionist, the elective existence of slavery in our country to preserve franchise is not a natural right, because it is po- the republic, and to keep proudly to the breeze litical power, and political power is always a civil our honored flag, perfect and whole in its.starry trust, never a natural right, and the State judges beauty. When the crisis did come the Democratic -for itself to whom it will or will not confide the party did its duty, and when slavery was buried trust. The extension of the ballot is more under the debris and ruins, and the republic safe, or less a leveling of distinctions and classifica- I thanked God. and so did the Democratic party. tions, a secret magnet that tends to bring together Humanitarianism cannot claim the victory in our and unite more closely incongruous and natural recent struggle, the success of its cause was but differences in races. I believe, sir, that the white incidental to the grand victory of the republic race politically, should have some s uperior and itself in sustaining its own s haken s tructure, and distinctive position; and that the black race, but in planting itself on a firmer basis for the benefit yesterday freed from slavery, educated in igno-. and prosperity of mankind. It is well known, rance, meniality and dependence; wallowing in and it is had from the lamented Abraham contented obfuscation, and satisfied oblivion; not Lincoln himself, that he would never have issued asking for, and entirely ignorant of the more than his emancipation proclamation were it not to voluntary efforts of a party in this country to drive enlist the sympathies of Europe in favor of the them to the ballot box-is no race that can corn North in order to save the Union. In England, mand or justly deserve the suffrage from me, when the extension of the suffrage has been a 311 work of gradation, and very much weight is attached to the condition of the classes, as to their fitness for the proper exercise of such a power; and progress being slowly made as time and experience matures the classes for the just use of the ballot. Principle must sometimes give way for expediency, and though some of our republican principles may support the extension of the right of suffrage to negroes, still expediency and national prosperity to-day say no. Give the unrestricted suffrage to the negro in New York, and you form a precedent for dictation to the Southern States, or perhaps more correctly speaking, an aid to the systems of compulsion now being used to force the south in granting negro suffrage. In relation to the negro's qualifications for self-government I cite the following: Jamaica contains 6,400 square miles of the richest soil in the world. Before emancipation, in the year 1809, the value of her exports was $16,000,000. In the year 1853, and after emancipation, only $4,000,000. Assessed valuation of property bpfore emancipation in 1843, $250,000,000. In 1852 it was only $37,000,000. In the same year the number of estates ruined were as follows: Sugar estates abandoned, 199, or 275,000 acres: coffee plantations abandoned, 162, or 493,000 acres. The Cyclopaedia of Commerce says "that the negro is rapidly receding to a savage state." A Mr. Baird, one of the warmest advocates of emancipation said: Let a visitor see with his own eyes, the neglected and abandoned estates, the uncultivated fields, fast hurrying back into a state of nature, with all the speed of tropical luxuriance-the dismantled and silent machinery, the crumbling walls and deserted mansions, which are familiar sights in most of the British West India colonies; let him then transport himself to the Spanish Islands of Porto Rico and Cuba, and witness the life and activity which in these slave colonies prevail. Ex-Gov. Ward, of Ohio, an abolitionist, said, after visiting Jamaica: "Since the blacks have been liberated they have become indolent, insolent, degraded and dishonest. They are a rude and beastly set of vagabonds, lying naked about the streets, as filthy as the Hottentots, and I believe worse." Sewell, another antislavery man said: " There is not a house in decent repair; not a wharf in good order, no pavement, no sidewalk, no drainage and scanty water; no light. There is nothing like work done, all is wreck and ruin, destitution and neglect. The inhabitants taken en masse are steeped to the eye-lids in immorality. The population shows unnatural decrease. Illegitimacy exceeds legitimacy." So luch for the negro's capacity for self-government, and I ask some gentleman to inform me what good could result to-day from the exercise of the ballot by such a race? This is a national question and not confined to the State of New York. Thne people of the State of Connecticut saW fit to vote ugainst unrestricted negro suffrage, but a short time ago, and I believe the people of tia 8tate will vote against it if the question 8i submitted separately and vote against the Other proposed amendments to the Constitution f submitted in connection with. At some future time, sir, when the negro W be learned at least in the objects of our government, then I may be willing to extend to him the ballot, but to-day sir, in the unsettled condition of our national affairs I am of opinion it would be unsafe and unpolitic. I do not consider that the negro should be able to solve a problem in Euclid before voting, but I do think he should be impregnated to some extent with the amor patrice, and that common reason should guide all classes that have control of the political destinies of this republic. These qualities the negro race does not possess at present. If the negro has remembrances of slavery, he also remembers that the scene of his slavery was in this republic, so that as far as the past is concerned he has no cause for affection. He has as yet, hardly tasted of the sweets of liberty, and is perfectly satisfied if let alone and permitted to do as he pleases. The white citizen knows his country's history and loves her for her beneficent government and because of her free and liberal institutions, and the foreigner lifts his eyes to the western sky, while bending under the shackles of European tyranny, and hopes for the time when he can become a proud citizen of the American Republic. The gentleman from Onondaga [Mr. Corbett], spoke eloquently and truly when he spoke of the sufferings of that race whose blood courses in his veins and mine, but he spoke extravagantly when he sought to draw a comparison between the oppression of that race and the almost natural condition of the negro race. The sufferings of the Irish have no reflection in the condition of the negro, and nothing but a forced, sickly sentimentality could make any gentleman, because sympathizing with the efforts of the Irish people for liberty, arrive at the conclusion that having committed himself so far to the Irish race, he must then of necessity make negroes lords of the manor in this country. The Irish race is one plethoric in the finest quality of brain, brim full of poetry and prowess, the blood of which has streaked every battle-field under the sun. Its sufferings were and are the sufferings of liberty's longings, the labors of patriotic fervor to loosen the clutch of despotism. The negro race is a physically discolored and mentally inferior one, dependent, helpless and lazy. With no history of credit, and unknown to fortune fame and story. Complaining of subjection when they suffer bodily or when their selfish propensities are excited and never aspiring for liberty in its true sense, for the black man does not comprehend what liberty is. I was sorry to hear the gentleman from Onondaga [Mr. Corbett] accuse the democratic party of proscription, because he, in my opinion, should be the last man to make such an accusation. If he chooses to-day to labor with the republican majority, if he elect to differ with the party to which the race from which he sprang is closely allied, I had hoped he would have remembered the past-the ready protection his father's countrymen found, when exiled, in the arms of the democratic party from proscription and intolerance. Know-nothingism has also been spoken of by the gentleman from Onondaga and by him connected with the democratic party. I say, sir, on information that there are some prominent republicans on this floor who have not yet forgotten how to signal an O. U. A. 312 When knowonothingism was rampant in full tide in Virginia it was a democrat that stopped its progress. Henry A. Wise in his famous letter in 1854 said among other things-" When we were as weak as 3,000,000 we relied largely on foreigners by birth to defend us and aid us in securing independence. Now that we are 20 millions strong how is it we have become so weak in our fears as to apprehend we are to be deprived of our liberties by foreigners? Verily this seemeth as if know-nothings were reversing the order of things or that there is another and a different feeling from that of the fear arising from the sense of weakness. It comes rather from a proud consciousness of over-weening strength. They wax stronger, rather, and would kick like the proud grown fat. It is an exclusive if not an aristocratic feeling in the true sense, which would say to the friends of freedom born abroad, 'we had need of you, and were glad of your aid when we were weak, but we are now so independent of you that we are not compelled to allow you to enjoy our republican privileges. We desire the exclusive use of human rights, though to deprive you of their common enjoyment will not enrich us the more, and will make you poor indeed.'" This was the language and spirit of the Democratic party on the subject of proscribing foreigners and Catholics. A word more and I have done. The gentleman from Onondaga [Mr. Corbett] has said it would be cowardice to submit this suffrage question by itself to the people. And, while speaking in this connection, I would allude to some remarks that were made by the gentleman from Clinton [Mr. Axtell] yesterday, in which he saw fit to introduce certain algebraical terms and mathematical displays, and I thought then, and do now, that his argument had as much to do with proving the expediency of this subject as the argument of the country minister when he sought to prove that our Saviour was the Son of God, and cited, as his argument, that if Judge Bowen and he were to run a race, and Judge Bowen got to the place before he did, it was not because he ran faster than he did, but because he got there faster, and, therefore, the Saviour must have been the Son of God. I consider the cowardice consists in conjoining this proposition with the other amendments, because it is evidently to obtain votes from the supposed popularity of these amendments. The separate submission was not cowardly in 1846. To submit this question independent of other influences, would be to evidence by this Convention, confidence in the people; a sense of justice to the question itself and to the remaining proposed amendments. It is the only fair means of learning the true wishes of the people, and for this reason, I support and will vote for the amendment offered by the gentleman from Kings [Mr. Murphy]. Mr. MURPHY- I beg the indulgence of the committee for a short timeMr. RATHBUN-I believe, Mr. Chairman, there is a rule which provides that any member who has spoken once on a subject, shall not speak again, until all the rest have spokenThe CHAIRMAN —The same rules that apply in Convention obtain in the committee, and the rule says that no member shall speak twice upon the same question, until all others have spoken who desire to speak. The Chair will enforce the the rule if it is insisted upon. Mr. MURPHY -My friend from Cayuga [Mr. Rathbun] if he hear my request will probably not object-I rose simply to ask the indulgence of the Committee, not to continue this debate, or to speak to the amendment which I proposed, but merely to reply to what I consider some personal reflections, or animadversions made during my absence by the gentleman from Oneida [Mr. T. W. Dwight]. The CHAIRMAN-If there is no objection the gentleman from Kings [Mr. Murphy] will proceed. Mr. MURPHY -I was very much surprised, in taking up the report of the proceedings of this body on Saturday, after I had left foi home, to find that remarks had been made by that honorable gentleman which seemed to reflect upon myself personally. I certainly entertain a very high respect for him and also for Prof. Lieber, from whose works I had made some citations, and 1 regard them both as public men of reputation and distinction; men adorning the institution to which I owe, perhaps, all that I am as a man. And, sir, I felt mortified, therefore, to read in the remarks of the gentleman that I was favored with the presumption on the part of the gentleman, that I was an honorable man. He charges me with having made some charge against Professor Lieber, which he was called upon in his position and from his relation, as a colleague of that gentleman, to rebut-that I had accused Professor Lieber, as I gather from his remarks, as being against the extension of the elective suffrage to the negro race. Now, sir, I made no charge; the language of mine which the honorable gentlemen quotes, contains no charge against Professor Lieber. I merely referred to a fact. I made a statement of fact which was in all respects true, and not tending in the least to animadvert upon Prof: Lieber, with regard to his opinions. I said, sir, as quoted by the gentleman from Oneida [Mr. T. W. Dwight]: "There, sir, is a writer of distinction who is indorsed politically, [by certain parties] who maintains Very distinctly the inferiority of the negro race in capacity." That sir, was my declaration in regard to Prof. Lieber. When I added [this is] the ground upon which many who oppose negro suffrage base their opposition to granting the negro the right to vote, I did not say that Prof. Lieber opposed extending the right of suffrage to the negro, or that he put his opposition upon any such ground. I merely stated, he, as a philosophical writer had asserted the inferiority of the negro race, and that in the opinion of many, such inferiority, was a ground for opposing the extension of suffrage to the negro. The committee will recollect that in this connection I gave no reason, why I myself opposed negro suffrage. I was arguing, as far as my ability would enable me to do, the question whether the extension of the franchise to this class should be submitted to the people as a separate proposition or not. Among other reasons I stated there was a diversity of opinion among the people irrespective of party, and I cited the opinion expressed upon this fi y distinguished gentlemen, that there were m ddemocrats who in 1846 and 1860; 313 and still were in favor of this extension of the right. On the other hand I said there were distinguished men in the party of the majority here and in the country who were opposed to the extension of negro suffrage, and distinguished writers who gave opinions which furnished the grounds of opposition to this extension. I cited the opinion, at one time, of President Lincoln, and of the patriarch of democracy, Thomas Jefferson. I quoted Prof. Lieber to the point that the negro was of an inferior race to the white, and I read from his book, as far as was necessary for this purpose without reading the further extract as the gentleman has done. I did not think it was necessary for the purposes of my argument to detain the Convention with the reading of the whole. And, sir, I can tell the gentleman that did so deliberately, and not as he would indulgently say, through precipitation. I did not do it, on the other hand, for the dishonorable purpose from which the gentleman would patronizingly shield me,of misrepresenting Professor Lieber. I quoted it because it was all that was necessary for the purposes of my argument, to show that the negro was, in the opinion of that distinguished man inferior in capacity to the white man, and I maintain still that the opinion of Professor Lieber as expressed in this volume, and which as far as I understand, is unchanged by any public writing of his, is that the negro is inferior, in point of capacity, to the white man. Let me call the attention of the committee to this passage again: "Yet though the distinction between man and brute has thus been distinctly drawn, comparative anatomy and physiology are establishing daily, more clearly, the fact that all those beings comprehended under the vast term of human species, are not only morally or individually distinguished from each other, but in a very marked way physiologically, and as to their capacities by whole races, forming a gradual scale of superiority." This is the proposition with which Professor Lieber starts, that notwithstanding the alleged unity of the human race (which I believe in, not only as a part of my religious faith, but as the resllt of my reading on the subject, and I presume such it is the belief of Professor Lieber also) there are differences in capacity among the different races of the human family. How those differences have been produced, whether by organization or whether by continued habitations in particular portions of the world, through the influences of climate and other causes of an extraneous character, I know not. It was not necessary for me to go into that inquiry. The fact of difference exists. It is stated distinctly by Professor Lieber, in the passage I have Just read, and having stated the fact that there is a difference of capacity in the human race, he Concedes and confirms the main position that men are not equal in capacity. For some causes, either natural, or temporal, or physical, they do iffer, and do differ materially. He then goes on: " The most peculiar skulls of the so called PreInca race, found in South America, are so essentially different from ours, that they alone show an essential difference of that race from ours. The O ffres, Boushmanuas (Bushmen), the Hottentots, and the poor Papous, for instance, differ so 40 materially in their anatomy and physiologic organization, from the races which comparative anatomy, as well as the history of civilization teach us, by conclusive facts, to consider as superior, that we should abandon all truth, were we to deny the difference." Does not this language specifically assert that the negro is inferior in capacity to the white race? I would ask if the Caffres, the Bushmen, and the Hottentots, are not negroes, and if they do not come under that designation? Professor Lieber distinctly names these particular tribes without naming all the nations or varieties of the negro, which exist in Africa. It is not necessary for me to call the attention of this committee to the meaning of the word negro, either philologically or in the sense in which it is used in this debate. Mr. BICKFORD-I would ask the gentleman from Kings [Mr. Murphy], whether in his amendment he designed to include negroes only-whether lie intends to include in its operation the brown varieties of the Caucasian race, the Hindoos, the Copts, the Moors, the Chinamen, and the Mestizos of New Mexico, California, and Arizona? I wish a distinct enunciation from him as to whether his amendment is intended to include negroes only, or to include all other colored races, for instance, the black Jews-does he intend to include them? Mr. MURPHY-The object of this interruption the gentleman [Mr. Bickford] himself best understands. I think there can be no doubt in any mind that it has no pertinency to the question which I have been and am now presenting to the committee. I shall be happy at the proper time to answer the question. I am now addressing myself to what I consider to be a personal matter between myself and the gentleman from Oneida [Mr. T. W. Dwight]. I therefore proceed and say that the particular races mentioned by Professor Lieber in the section which I have last read, were negroes, and that literally and truly my statement is fully maintained. But the gentleman from Oneida [Mr. T. W. Dwight] says that in what Professor Lieber states in the latter part of the section in regard to negroes as they exist in the Southern States, who are understood, I believe, to have been brought from the more northern parts of Africa-from Bonim and other parts of the coast of Guinea-he contradicts the interpretation which I have given to the facts just read. Does he? In my view he confirms it. The point is the inferiority of the negro race to the white race. That is the position I took. The degree or extent of that inferiority I did not argue, nor did I present it to this committee. Professor Lieber, proceeds to say: " We love to treat, in our theories and meditations, all men as absolutely equal; but truth is truth, however it may militate with beloved, nay, generous theories; and God is a God of truth." There is where my extract ended. Then he continues: "l e must have had his all-wise ends in creating these different races, as he must have had his ends in creating those many tribes and races, who without light, without expansion of thought or cultivation, have increased and vanished, or who continue to people so many parts of the globe, yet do no more than people them, tribes which live 314 without history, that is, without progressive the fact that a man lives in Africa no more proves change, interesting to the naturalist, but of no him to be a negro than the fact that a man lives account in the history of mankind." in New York proves him to be an Indian. Very Is not that the true character of the negro? recent and reliable authorities divide the African Does it not describe the negro perfectly? From people into five classes. whatever nation or whatever part of Africa the 1. Semitic. Such as Abyssinian, including the negro may come he has no history. He makes sub-Semitic, as the Copts or Egyptian tribes. no progress. He is where he was thirty-five hun- 2. Nilotic. The area inhabited by these people dred years ago, as shown by the Egyptian monu- is the land drained by the Upper Nile. This group ments, and as he is fully described by Roman includes the Nubians, Gallas, etc. This is a writers. Professor Lieber proceeds with the sen- transitional class. tence which it is alleged contradicts my position: 3. Kafirs, or Caffres. These in some cases " Nor is it for us here to speculate how far these approach the negro, in others depart from that tribes, now so low and brutish, may be suscepti- type. ble of organic improvement, which, it cannot be 4. The Negro. denied, has taken place with some races. The 5. Hottentot and Bushmen. negro of Virginia is superior, as to the formation All of these are distinct groups, and in order to of his head, to the negro of the more southern show this, I shall quote from some authorities. I States, because he descends from earlier imported have only to deal with the three last classes, the generations. The negro of the most southern of Kafirs, the Negro, and the Hottentots and Bushthe United States, again, has much more expres- men. Now, a high authority (Vol. 2 of the Ency. sion of intelligence than the newly imported clopredia Britannica, p. 222) says: "The Kafirs or negro in the West Indies. So has civilization Caffres, have been very wrongly classed with the improved the formation of the head in the Celtic negroes." Another authority, (Pritchard's Nat. race." Hist. of Man, p. 384) uses this language: "The This comparison I conceive affords a distinct complexion of the Caffres is of a lighter hue and statement, by implication, that the negroes in this much redder than that of the negro. By some, country are of different degrees of capacity of mind, Caffres are reckoned of the red rather than the all inferior to that of the white race. I suppose black races of mankind, and a late American it may be urged in the same line of argument that traveler declares that they resemble the Indians the negro of the State of New York has a better of the American continent. They exemplify a formed head than the negro of Virginia. Profes- type of features strikingly different from that of sor Lieber does not say anything in regard to the the Guinea negro, and this is the prevalent type capacity of this race having been improved-not at among this nation." And then on page 385 this all. He is speaking craniologically and physio- same authority says: "Caffres, in external form and ogically, if I may so express myself, in regard to figure vary exceedingly from the other nations of the form of the head of the negro. He says, the Africa. They are much taller, stronger, and their negro headis improving in form in this country; but limbs much better proportioned; their color is he does not attempt to contradict here the idea that brown; their hair black and woolly; their countenthe negro is inferior in capacity to the white race ances have a character peculiar to themselves, and though he may have so intended. Now, whatever which does not permit their being included in force this extract may be entitled to, I leave to the any of the races of mankind above enumerated. committee. What I have to say is, I did not pre- They have the high forehead and prominent nose sent it as an absolute argument for myself in the of the Europeans, the thick lips of the negroes, consideration of this subject, but I presented it as and the high cheek bones of the Hottentots." I said before, for the purpose of showing that there Now, as to the Hottentots and Bushmen, nothwere people in this country who considered the ing is better settled than that the Hottentots and negro inferior in mental power. Now, Mr. Chair- Bushmen do not belong to the negro race. They man, having said all that I proposed to do, that is, are entirely different from other races in Africa. to reply to so much of the remarks of the gentle- The Hottentot race is entirely different from others man [Mr. T. W. Dwight] as referred to my motives, in Africa. As authority for this I refer to the and having, if I may so express it, put myself rectus Encyclopaedia Britannica, Vol. 2, p. 222. Mr. Brace in curia, I have nothing more to add at present. in his work "on the Races of the Old World page Mr. T. W. DWIGHT - I have no controversy, 300 " uses this language: "A remarkable ethnoMr. Chairman, with the gentleman from Kings logical problem is presented by a single race in the [Mr. Murphy]. What I said was simply this: that southern portion of Africa, entirely different from thought the gentleman was precipitate in his the South African family both in physique and action. I did not charge him with unfairness, as language-a race of copper color and low developI distinctly said. After his explanation this morn- ments, amid dark races of noble physical structure, ing it is evident that the difference between us is and separated from them both by mental peculiarity simply one of ethnology. The gentleman from and by a language presenting features exhibited in Kings [Mr. Murphy], insists that Caffres and no other tongue." The Bushmen are of a dirty yelBushmen and Poor Papous are negroes. I claim, low color and resemble to some extent a Chinaman as a matter of ethnology that they are not, and, in appearance. These persons are of a very low therefore, that he does not understand the subject order of beings. A very recent authority says that as it should be understood, and for that reason he Bushmen and Hottentots have a better claim to be was precipitate. Now the substance of his argu- considered as a separate species of the genus homo meat amounts, it seems to me, to this, that every than any other section of our kind. They are man who lives in Africa is necessarily a negro. But hardly more than four feet high, often live in 315 holes in the ground and feed on vermin, which and duties. There are many respectable colored the desert, where they live, furnishes them. persons with us, and I believe none will consciThough living side by side with other tribes of entiously deny that, when fairly educated, they a higher order they do not change. They scorn stand on quite as high a level of mental developall culture of ground and care of cattle. And now ment as the lowest of the whites, who are neveras to the "Poor Papous." Ethnologists tell us, theless admitted to a full participation in all that the poor Papous, or Papuans of Australia, are political privileges: nor that the question under in many respects the most sunken of human beings. consideration would ever have been started, did For this I refer to Smith's Natural History of Man, the African race not differ from ourselves in color." page 207. It was not strange that Dr. Lieber, With this development and explanation, and this looking on these degraded races should, as many unfolding of Dr. Lieber's meaning, I say there is not Ethnologists have done, regard them as distinct a shadow of ground for believing that he enterspecies of men. In this I do not agree with him. tains the view that the gentleman from Kings [Mr. Doubtless he would modify his views, for since he Murphy] insists he does. I did not blame the wrote, Christianity has elevated, even these low gentleman from Kings or charge him with unfairand sunken people, as I believe it is to elevate all ness, but simply say that he has not studied this people on the face of the earth. But the point is, topic as he ought, and therefore he was precipidoes his language include the negro races, and I tate when he rendered his opinion. I must still, say, unquestionably, that it does not. These without the slightest imputation upon him, say quotations which I have made are from books that he was precipitate, and by precipitate I mean which may be found in the State Library, and that a gentleman should never speak on such a if there is any incorrectness in them it can subject without a study of it; and especially be shown. These men, viz., Pre-Incas, Caffres. when he charges a philosopher-a man who Bushmen, etc., are not in any respect negroes, but devotes himself to this class of studies —he should of a different race of men. That is my first point. study the subject before he charges such a man Now my second point is that, Dr. Lieber did not with inconsistency. intend to include our negro race in his statement. Mr. MURPHY-Does the gentleman not lie supposed that these races were not embraced understand from what he has read that Dr. Lieber among negroes. Shortly before this. he had edited maintains that the negro in Virginia and the the Encyclopnedia Americana. In that work he Southern States is inferior to the white race? distinguishes the Caffre and Hottentot from the Mr. T. W. DWIGHT- -No, sir, all I understand negro. In volume 6, page 447, it is said that the is that lie needs more facts to decide the question Hottentots and Bushmen are two distinct families whether he can reach the same height of intelto whom the Caffres are related. The Bushmen lectual cultivation as the European; but he has, in volume 2, page 344, are described as very in his opinion, sufficient intelligence to vote. low and do not even form societies. His opinion Mr. MURPHY-He is not satisfied that the of the negro is found in the same work. negro has the intellectual capacity of the white "The negro character, if inferior to the European race. in intellectual vigor, is marked by a warmth of Mr. T. W. DWIGHT - Not fully. social affection, and a kindness and tenderness of Mr. MURPHY-That sustains my position. feeling which even the atrocities of foreign op- I did not argue that he should not vote. I argued pression hlave not been able to stifle. All travelers that he was inferior to the white race. concur in describing the negro as mild, amiable, Mr. T. W. DWIGHT- Tile statement of the simple, hospitable, unsuspecting and faithful. The gentleman from Kings [Mr. Murphy] was that opinion formerly maintained that they were of an Dr. Lieber maintained " very distinctly the inferiinferior variety of animals, would not now find an ority of the negro race in capacity, the ground advocate or a convert, even in the ignorance or upon which many who oppose negro suffrage base the worst passions of the whites. Whether they their opposition to granting the negro the right to are capable of reaching to the same heights of vote." Instead of that Dr. Lieber says he has intellectual cultivation as the Europeans is a ques- not fully made up his mind as to whether he can tiou which we need more facts to decide." reach the same height of intellectual cultivation But I will quote from another volume, as the European. or not. Mr. MURPHY-Will the gentleman from Mr. MURPHY —I simply quoted what Dr. Oneida [Mr. T. W. Dwight], inform me from Lieber had said in a published work, in which he what work he quoted? claimed that the negro was inferior to the white Mr. T. W. DWIGHT-From the Encylopaedia race; what he may have written in the EncycloAmericana. Dr. Lieber's' edition. paedia Americana, I do not know. In what I read Mr. MURPHY-He does not there admit the he gave reasons which are satisfactory to many quality in intellect and capacity of the negro with minds why the negro should not vote. the white man. Mr. T. W. DWIGHT - My answer to that is Mr. T. W. DWIGHT-He does not say. But I that he was not talking about negroes but Bushwill read from another work of Dr. Lieber's, his men and Hottentots and Caffres. At the suggesetters to a gentleman in Germany, page 290. tion of a gentleman near me, I will again read te says: the passage. 'hether the African race ever will have "The Caffres, the Boushuannes, (Bushmen), imong them a Shakspeare, a Charlemagne or the Hottentots, and the poor Papous, for instance, Aristotle I know not; nor is it necessary to know differ so materially in their anatomy and physiolthi, in order to settle tie question as to their logic organization, from the races which comparaplitical capacity for participating in all civil rights tive anatomy as well as the history of civilization 316 teach us, by conclusive facts, to consider as supe- slavery clause into the Constitution of the land, rior, that we should abandon all truth, were we to I was satisfied, in my mind, that political rights deny the difference. There is probably no reflect- and full citizenship for the freedmen must ing man, who was not painfully startled when he follow sooner or later. I readily admit that, became first acquainted with these nevertheless in certain States, this claim of new born citizens imperative truths. We love to treat, in our theo- of the United States has, under a certain aspect, ries and meditations, all men as absolutely equal; its alarming features, as it involves a more or less but truth is truth, however it may militate with thorough revolution of the political and social beloved, nay, generous theories; and God is the state of the community, and works greatly to the God of truth. He must have had his all-wise ends disadvantage of the heretofore ruling classes of in creating these different races, as he must have whites. If such unwelcome changes are among had his ends in creating those many tribes and the fruits and consequences of treason and rebel. races, who without light, without expansion of lion, who is to blame for it? Shall miserable pre. thought, or cultivation, have increased and van- judices carry us so far as to deny justice to the ished, or who continue to people so many parts of black man, who has proved true and remained the globe, yet do no more than people them; tribes faithful to the cause of the Union under the most which live without history, that is, without pro- trying circumstances, while those boasting of a gressive change, interesting to the naturalist, but great and patriotic ancestry stand convicted of the of no account in the history of mankind. Nor is crime or fell into the criminal error of applying it for us here to speculate how far these tribes, all their means and powers to destroy the now so low and brutish, may be susceptible of inheritance of their own fathers? It must be organic improvement, which, it cannot be denied, remembered that the institution of human slavery, has taken place with some races." unfortunately existing in this country and at best Mr. MURPHY- Will the gentleman [Mr. T. W. to be tolerated only under a federal compact Dwight] read the next page? till otherwise ordered by the joint consent of the Mr. T. W. DWIGHT- I will: States, their representatives or the people thereof, "The negro of Virginia is superior as to the that this institution of human slavery under the formation of his head, to the negro of the more pressure of alluring material advantages became southern States, because he descends from earlier more and more aggressive every day, till it finally imported generations. The negro of the most south- dared to commit high treason and to appeal to the ern of the United States, again, has much more sword. After a desperate four years' struggle expression of intelligence than the newly slavery found itself routed, put to the sword and imported negro in the West Indies. So has civi- finally abolished. It is most natural that its adlizatdon improved the formation of the head of the vocates and defenders have now to accept the Celtic race." consequences of their crime, folly or error. It Now what I say is this that Dr. Lieber says that will not do for them, nor for us, to try to obliterthe negro can improve like the Celt. Even the ate from man's memory or from the pages of hisgentleman from Kings [Mr. Murphy] will not say tory, the record of the events of the last six or that the Celt is not fit to vote. I need have no seven years, and to fall back upon the record controversy with him on that, because the negro made by their fathers. They have written in is placed on the same plane with the Celt by Dr. blood their own record, and must be content to Lieber. I know that he will not assert anything be judged by it. It is the most unpropitious and against the capacity of the Celt. Although at conceited position a man or party can take, if one time the Celt was low, he has been raised to they endeavor to cover and hide the momentbe able to exercise the elective franchise. All Dr. ous present by an everlasting recurrence Lieber says in that passage is this: civilization to a glorious past. This endeavor does raised the Celt, and so civilization will raise th e not only place them in the wrong in the eyes of negro. The former part of the passage read has the people, who have sacrificed so much for the nothing to do with the negro, but refers to an maintenance of the Union; it does not only cost entirely different class of persons. them the respect of a progressive civilized age in Mr. GROSS - Mr. Chairman - which they live, but it makes them powerless to Mr. LIVINGSTON -Does not Dr. Lieber say alleviate and mitigate, for the defeated and subthat the negro needs more capacity to - dued, the cruel consequences of rebellion and war. The CHAIRMAN - The Chair will inform the However much we may hesitate or resist to gentleman from Kings [Mr. Livingston], that acknowledge the overpowering influence of the the gentleman from New York [Mr. Gross] has events of the last decade on the future laws and the floor. destiny of the republic, it will nevertheless prove Mr. GROSS -After the eloquent and lengthy true that they will date much more from the surremarks which it has been my good fortune to render at Appomattox, than from that at Yorklisten to during a full week's discussion of the town or the battle at New Orleans. The stubpending question, I should have deemed it super- born refusal by some of our leading men to read fluous to add a word of my own, if it were not the signs of the times, to understand the temfor the fact that I find my views on the subject, per of the people, and to assume a position to a certain extent, at variance with those at once to be followed by a return of the conadvanced by gentlemen on either side of the fidence of the people in their counsels is the House. Under such circumstances, it becomes a main cause, that more moderate views and a kind of a duty that I should define my posi- more generous and forgiving policy did not obtain tion. The moment emancipation became a in our national councils. It is painful to Wme to settled fact by the incorporation of the anti- indulge in remarks of this nature, but they 317 have been challenged by the maintaining of posi- of this State have uniformly and unqualifiedly tions, the responsibility for which I cannot share. voted down negro suffrage, that circumstances Mr. Chairman, I am by no means an enthusiastic have greatly changed since that time. Seven, and admirer of the black man. To me, who has had twelve, and twenty years ago when such voting ample opportunity to study the nature, the habits, took place, slavery was a live institution, recogthe virtues and vices of the once enslaved race, it nized and protected by the Constitution of the sounds rather odd to hear the fulsome praise United States; then the compromise measures, now-a-days lavished on the negro in certain quar- the fugitive slave law and similar federal and State ters. It will be long before the black man will, in enactments were in full force, and many conscienreality, come up to the standard prepared for him tious and law abiding men may have hesitated, in in advance by the prolific imagination of those who spite of their anti-slavery sentiments, to vote for a seem to know least of him. I do not deny intellec- proposition so repugnant to nearly one-half of the tual faculties to the negro; my opinion of him in that states of the Union, and so much at variance with respect is not quite so poor a one as that held by inter-State comity. At present the case stands Thomas Jefferson, according to the quotations differently, and the same causes being no longer made by the gentleman from Kings [Mr. Murphy], operative in a balloting on negro suffrage, from Mr. Jefferson's works. Yet, however wide it is not likely that it will be attended with and extensive the intellectual compass of a the same effect as heretofore. But as I stated negro brain may be, it is an undeniable fact, before, it is altogether a mistaken assertion that in him the animal propensities are fearfully that the people of this State have voted to predominant, and that it will require long and keep negro suffrage out of the organic law of careful training to make them subservient to a the State; they have, on the contrary, uniformly well-balanced mind and strong moral sense. As voted negro suffrage into the Constitution, coupled to the latter in particular, the black man is gene- only with a qualification clause upon the merits rally found wofully deficient, and it will go hard and value of which the whole question turns at with him to place him under the same moral the present time. Has a single gentleman on this restraint as white people generally are, if only floor raised his voice in behalf of a retention of tolerably educated. For these and other reasons that qualification clause? I am not aware of it, I should have Dreferred to educate the freedmen and certain it is, that the gentleman from Kings, before placing them on a political equality with [Mr. Murphy], has, with decision and emphasis, white people. Deficient as the education of a expressed himself against it. At a time when considerable proportion of white men may still be the State was greatly in need of stationary and found, it is nevertheless the negro, if compared with permanent settlers, and when it required a very them alone, who needs education most. Far more small amount of money to secure a freehold estate, dangerous and hurtful, however, than the crude citi- there may have been some reason for appending zenship of a comparatively small number of voters such a clause to the section on the right of sufof this State is to the public, will be the continued rage; but at no time should it have applied to agitation of this negro question. As a matter of the colored men alone. In this wonderful age of justice, and for the sake of good policy, I am there- steam and electricity, however, and at a time fore prepared to do away with this question now when man's capacity, wealth, worth and usefulness and forever. As to the particular mode to be applied are no longer measured by the number of acres of toward so desirable an end, I have to say that the land he owns, such a clause is worse than meanproposition of the gentleman from Ontario [Mr. ingless and unjust; it is absurd, and its retention Folger] seems to me the most rational one, al- a stigma on the intelligence of the people of this though I do not admit of the soundness of some State. But if we have to erase it from the Conof the arguments against the proposition of the stitution, what shall we do? Shall we do less gentleman from Kings [Mr. Murphy]. Bring this than we did at a time when negro slavery was in question to a final decision in either way, and I full bloom in nearly one-half of the States of the shall be satisfied. I do not apprehend any danger Union? Shall we still do honor at so late an hour for the new Constitution if the property qualifica- to an obsolete slave-code and reject the negro as tion is incorporated in it, nor do I see any a man and citizen? Who is advocating this course? harm in a separate submission of the question. Let me therefore entreat gentlemen to give the Gentlemen on one side may as well assent as proposition of the gentleman from Kings [Mr. not, without fear of injury or. loss, to a separate Murphy] a fair trial for the sake of impartiality submission, while the gentlemen on the other and time-honored custom first, but if it should side will do well to beware of the false step fail to secure a majority of the votes of this Conof making it the decisive issue. Partyisnm vention, let us then adopt with unanimity the should have nothing to do with the decision of this anmendment of the gentleman from Ontario question. Without indorsing some of his argu- [Mir. Folger], thus recording ourselves in favor of ments I am willing to give the proposition of the unrestricted manhood suffrage in the Empire State, gentleman from Kings [Mr. Murphy] a fair trial Mr. Chairman, before yielding the floor I ask to before this body, and if possible before thl(e people. be indulged in a few remarks on the majority reHad I the least apprehension that the people' of port of the Committee on the Right of Suffrage. the State would so stultify themselves as to vote' In the larger cities, and I believe in villages and for the retention of that Bourbonistic freehold settlements not less, it has become customary clause I would not dare take this course; bult thlt the subljedeof naturalization from year to year ave a better trust in the intelligence of the people. does not excite any particular attention after the Let me tell gentlemen who are hauuted by tihe, meeting of the political parties in State ConvenSomewhat erroneous impression that the people tion and the placing of the respective tickets be. 318 fore the people. The process of naturalization, that is, the taking out of the first as well as of the second paper is therefore principally reserved to the months of September and October of each year. My learned friend from New York [Mr. Daly], who is a judge of the court of common pleas, the gentleman from Kings [Mr. Barnard], and some others have fully explained the customary modus operandi in this process of naturalization, and have likewise pointed out the injurious effect of the proposed extension of time from ten to thirty days. It is therefore safe to say, that if this thirty-day clause of the majority report of the Committee on the Right of Suffrage is retained, more than one-half the number of all those who in 1866 have taken out their first papers and are by completing their naturalization in the fall of 1868 under the law of Congress and the Constitution of the State entitled to vote in November of the last named year, will, under this thirty-day clause be temporarily disfranchised: they cannot vote before theyear of 1869; plighted faith is broken to them. and federal law and State Constitution are ignored in order to satisfy a mere caprice, for the so called evil or abuse complained of is not removed by the proposed remedy, but diluted only, or extended over a longer period of time. This being the fact, I desire to inquire in all candor and friendliness of the gentleman from Westchester [Mr. Greeley], whether in his opinion it is fair and just to ask several hundred thousand of naturalized voters, living in this State, to assist him to extend the right of suffrage to all the colored people in this State and at the same time to visit proscription, and temporarily disfranchise their own kinsmen? Has the gentleman from Westchester [Mr. Gr6eley] any reason to expect that any" naturalized voter, not entirely devoid of self-respect, will sustain his thirty-day clause? If there is no reason to expect such self-pollution on the part of the adopted citizens, will the gentleman from Westchester [Mr. Greeiey] nevertheless insist on his proposition and thereby take the responsibility upon himself of sealing beforehand the fate of the work of this body? Or does he not deem it better to accede to the amendment of the gentleman from Ontario [Mr. Folger] and thereby to do what is but just and right? Mr. WAKEMAN-The immediate subject before this committee I understand to be the question of a submission of the question of doing away with the property qualification for the negro; but of the justice of a property qualification, and connected with the merits of the question, I propose, for a few moments, to examine the property qualification in its application. And just let us examine the property qualification as it stands. I suppose it has been adopted as a basis of intelligence, for it can be defended on no other principle; and as it has been recognized by the government of this State, that the colored man should vote, I take it that it was originally placed there as evidence of the intelligence of the voter when he should have acquired two hundred and fifty dollars worth of property. Originally, in 1777, it was applied to all men. In 1821, tiere were still restrictions on the white as well as the black man, but it was the same provision in 1821 as the amendment of the gentleman from Kings [Mr. Murphy]; I believe it is the same language. In 1826 the entire restrictions were removed from the white man; and left this identical proposition now submitted by the gentleman from Kings [Mr. Murphy] in the Constitution as it stood. Now. let us look at it and see. On that principle a man that has two hundred and fifty dollars worth of real estate, free from all charges thereon, and who has been actually assessed, and paid taxes thereon, is a voter. Let us look at its operation. A class of men may be voters, and when the industrious citizen, under the Constitution of the State of New York, and by misfortune and by sickness he is compelled to meet his obligations like white men, and he mortgages that little homestead to fulfill the obligation he owes as a citizen, and as a man of honor, and when the assessor comes around, it turns out that his little homestead is not worth $250, over and above the incumbrances and charges thereon, here you have it that a citizen, that is a voter under the Constitution, by means of misfortune, has been disfranchised, not by his act, but by the Constitution of the State. More than this, in consequence of the prejudice against him on account of his color, the incendiary may apply the torch to his building, and commit the crime of arson, and also bring him below the standard, and when the colored man comes to the polls, will gentlemen tell me he is not as intelligent and not as capable of exercising the right of suffrage then as he was before? More than this, sir, if the assessor fails to perform his duty, then he will be disfranchised under this amendment of the gentleman from Kings [Mr. Murphy]. Now, I know it is claimed by some that this right should not be extended to him, because he is inferior to the white race. Does it seem fair for us, if we claim that to be so, because he may be a little inferior than we are, to place a burden on him? Rather should,we not lift him up to the standard of humanity, and try to bring him up rather than press him down. The farmers of this country don't treat their dumb beasts this way. If they have one horse weaker than another, they give the weak one the long end of the whiffletree. We will not reverse the order of things in this case. But the minority report and the argument of the honorable gentleman from Kings [Mr. Murphy], does not pretend for a single moment to defend the property qualification, but they say inasmuch as the people of this State have again and again rejected it, therefore- it should be rejected again. If you look back a few years, and but a few years, you will see there has been a revolution going on in this country-a revolution that men and parties cannot stop-a revolution, sir, that has carried State after State, and State after State, against the party then in power and which had been in power almost from the formation of the government. And the party now in power has struggled hard against it, and yet this revolution is going on, and it will go onward until this principle is recognized in placing the colored man, where he should be by enfranchising him with the white man. Now, how was it a few years ago, when the honorable gentleman from New York [Mr. Colahan] referred a few moments ago to the Door, down-trodden slave 319 in Virginia, that could not tell who George Washington was, nor who Jesus Christ was. Why did he reflect for a single moment, that at that very hour it was a crime in Virginia to teach the poor colored boy that his Saviour died that he might live? Did he know then, that by the laws of Virginia, a female would be imprisoned if she should undertake to teach the poor colored boy to read and to write? Why, Mr. Chairman, if the white race had then been in bondage as long, and had been treated as we have treated the slaves in Virginia, would the poor white boy be able to answer all the questions presented by the gentleman from New York [Mr. Colahan]? It seems to me not, I say there is a revolution going on and it will still go on. Sir, it was but a few years ago that the "old man eloquent," John Quincy Adams, used to stand up in Congress and present petition after petition, for what? Not from the colored men, but from the white men and women of this country. For what? For the abolition of slavery in the District of Columbia, the only tribunal that had jurisdiction of the subject, and yet, under the Constitution of the United States, where it states explicitly that Congress shall pass no law, abridging the right of the people to assemble together peaceably, and to petition the government for relief; and yet, sir, these petitions were received, it is true, after a while, but unread and unreferred they were put under the table. The glorious old man lived to see that rule abolished, and when he said "this is the last of earth" he had the satisfaction of knowing that the odious rule which was called the " Atherton gag" had been abolished. Time moves on. In 1850 the celebrated compromises were made, by which there was a finality put to the slavery question, and so thoroughly were the people convinced of this that the two great parties of the country in their nominations of 1852 made it a finality. But this revolution which is going on would not allow it to be a finality, for when slavery had gained that particular point in the controversey, then it was that the compromise of 1820 was attacked, and when that was repealed the party then in power were overthrown by a party based upon this repeal and against the extension of slavery, and from that, along up to the commencement of the war, this question has been going on steadily, but as surely as water finds its level. In 1861, after having elected a President upon this question, the South made war 01 the Government of the United States for the Purpose of destroying this Union. And when we went into that contest, after seventy-five thousand men had been called into action, and three hundred thbusand more, once and again, we undertook to fight it out by entirely ignoring the colored man. We would not, in the first Place, allow him to dig our trenches for us, and at last being hardly pressed by the rebels, we rought we had something that would give us eliet. What was that? It was that we should treat Of as contraband of war. That is, by the rules of War, we have a right to appropriate the propfOy belonging to the enemy for our own use, and fr atime we treated him as contraband of war, | nU alowed him to dig our trenches in place of the white man. But time rolled along, and for more than one year the work progressed on this line, and yet our armies were not victorious. Why, sir? We had failed to recognize the existing fact, that the war was for the purpose of destroying the Union and establishing slavery as its chief corner-stone, and when the proclamation of Abraham Lincoln was proclaimed, it was not alone the Democratic party who were alarmed at it; many true and loyal men of the Republican party faltered on the wayside almost. They were fearful of its consequences upon the people of the North and of the South. Yet, sir, when that proclamation was made, and we commenced action under it, by allowing the colored soldier to take the place of the white man, and placed the musket in his hand, and when we called two hundred thousand of the black men and put United States uniforms upon them, then it was that the tide of battle set in in favor of the victorious North, and the Government. Until then, sir, we had the Bull Run defeats. Until then, the war being fought out on the other line was a failure. From that time, henceforward, we went right along from victory to victory, until the final truimph of the fall of Richmond. This shows to my mind that God still rules the destinies of nations. Now, Mr. Chairman, in the light of these facts, the facts of history, I ask whether public opinion is not prepared to-day to put the final finish upon this question forever. I ask my democratic friends on this floor, whether they are not prepared here and now to say that this question shall be disposed of. You can do more in this Convention in one day, if you will, than Congress, which is now sitting practically with this very question before them-I mean in the reconstruction of the government, for it involves that-for if the strong men of New York will only come up here along with us and say we now acknowledge the situation, and the question of reconstruction would be substantially settled. It would be said to those gentlemen who have acted with the gentlemen in the past that it is no use for us to struggle any longer, and we therefore acknowledge the situation, and they would most assuredly acquiesce in it. Thus by our action on this question we would encourage the loyal men of the south that they must submit to the situation, and seats that are now vacant in Washington would soon be filled. I was exceedingly sorry and felt somewhat pained, because I claim to be a humanitarian myself, to hear the gentleman from Kings [Mr. Colahan] speak on the subject of disfranchisement of the negro. Now let us see for a moment. I suppose that gentleman, coming from the old country, crossed the big waters to make it his home here in the land of his adoption. We have opened our ports; we have broad acres for the people of the oppressed nations of Europe to occupy and possess, and I was sorry to hear him take ground against the oppressed negro men, born on American soil, from enjoying the right of the elective franchise. I always extend to those men a welcome, without a thought of attaching any property qualification whatever. But it seems to me 320 that if I had left my country and sought an asy- dent and called into action of the Convention, lum in another country under another government, thirty-two honorable gentlemen and states. I would be less than a man, if I were to raise my men of both parties in the State, so that we voice in a constitutional Convention against a should have a Constitution presented free native of that country from enjoying the same from faults, and that had some progressive fea. right that was accorded to me without a property tures in it." What is the result? Why, these men qualification of two hundred and fifty dollars. being selected from the parties throughout the I should rather feel like lifting up the oppressed State to aid the district delegates, at last have I should find in the land of my adoption. You brought forward the same identical proposition, and I, Mr. Chairman, are proud of our country and thrown it into this Convention for an action and our home. It is no merit of ours that we ignoring the great past, ignoring all past history, were born here. The man who comes across the and when that proposition is placed here, there is waters to America, comes from choice and adopts not one of them that will defend the bantling at it with all the privileges thereto belonging. It all. The gentleman from Kings [Mr. Murphy] seems to me that if I was placed as those per- says. It is no proposition of mine. "I found sons are, it would be my pleasure to speak in it in the Constitution of 1846" or in other favor of the oppressed I should find in my words, he found the bantling on his steps, and adopted country. But let us look at the opera- it has been there for the last twenty years tion of the law. Suppose a foreign born citizen and he throws it in here and says, I want approaches the polls, and a preliminary challenge to submit it to the people, - don't charge it upon is made. What does he do? The question is me. I want that some one should father it before I asked, "Where were you born?" "Ireland, sir." am willing to submit it to the people as a separate " How long have you been in this country?" " So proposition; for as the gentleman from New York long." And they go on and ask him if he had [Mr. Gross] said he has heard no man defend the been naturalized, and he produces his naturaliza- principle, nor can it be defended. The gentleman tion papers without any property qualification at from Kings [Mr. Murphy] says it cannot be deall, and it appeared that he had been naturalized fended on principle, and yet they ask us to submit just ten days before the day of the election, when it to the people. I cannot for one submit any he had sworn allegiance to our government for such question as that, unless it has some the first time and had renounced his allegiance principle in it, and one that commends itself to my to his mother country. Well, sir, is that man heaart and my vote. I, sir, am in favor of disposing admitted to vote? I say he is. He is, for my of this question now-putting an end to it forever. country gives him the right to vote when he is It is a mere question of time. If we struggle against entitled to citizenship. But let us pursue it, we shall soon be carried off and swept away this a little further. Suppose a colored with it; for I tell you, sir, this revolution is still man should approach the polls and offer going on and will go on until justice shall be done his vote. And suppose, sir, the question to the colored man. I remember a few years ago was put to him: "Are you possessed of $250 in my own district, just above Niagara Falls, a worth of real property, and have you been actu- poor German had been lost overboard and had ally assessed and paid taxes thereon?" "No, sir; caught on a log or something just above the but I was born in the city of Albany; I have been yawning gulf below; he struggled manfully, in the service of the Union Army; I was at the for a long time, knowing his certain fate, for no battles of Coal Harbor and the Wilderness; I was human aid could be rendered to him; finally he with Gen. Wadsworth when he fell pierced with gave way and went over the precipice. Just so rebel bullets. and I wiped the cold death sweat sure, sir, as that water rolls, we have got to enfrom his noble brow while his life's blood was franchise the colored man without any property moistening the sacred soil of Virginia." More qualification, and the men who struggle against it than this-" Sir, I was with that colored regiment will be carried over the falls of public opinion and when they marched into Richmond and I there be dashed to pieces. Suppose in the Constitution bore aloft the stars and stripes of my country; we shall adopt we take manhood suffrage and put true, those stars and stripes had been tattered and into it, saying nothing about white men and nothing torn, and stained with the blood of my country- about black men, but say all men-every man of men, yet I was there and upheld them at the twenty-one years of age, and with certain other hour that the rebel capital fell." "This will not qualifications, shall vote. Does not that look answer, Sir." Very well, then he takes from his manly and bold, to recognize a man-a man is pocket his naturalization papers and presents a man; and if the colored man is not a man, them with the broad seal of the United States he cannot vote under such a Constitution. But marked upon them. It turns out, however, to be a if by reason of any prejudice, this Constitucertificate of pensions, granting him a pension for tion should be voted down with that in wounds received in battle in the service of the Uni- it, the epitaph over it will be "not dead but ted States. By this time the inspector gets a little sleepeth." Because it would be but a short nervous, and he says: " Sir, I must inform you that time before it will come upon us again and the people of New York met in Convention in the again, until it is disposed of. We can then city of Albany in 1867, and they there re-enacted turn our attention to other questions of and adopted the same provisions that had been State. I am opposed to the separate submisadopted in the Constitution of. 1821, a period of sion of this question, because I believe it to be more than forty-six years ago, and that Conven- right to do the thing we are sent here for, and I tiou, in order to get together the assembled believe the colored man has a right to demand at wisdom of the State, went beyond all prece- our hands that we shall abolish this qualification, 321 And I believe, sir, as we placed the musket heretofore in the hands of the colored man in the hour of our country's peril, we should now place also the ballot In his hands. I like myself to be called a humanitarian, I am willing that all men should enjoy every blessing of heaven that I enjoy myself. and there is something beautiful in the idea, if we make a Constitution in all its parts, recognizing manhood wherever we find it. There is something in it that suits my constitution exactly. Look at it. AU men, sir, it is like the commencement of our Lord's prayer. " Our Father," not "my father" —I want to have a oneness and a singleness of purpose by which manhood everywhere can be leveled up and not leveled down. When we have disposed of this exciting question, and we can get the negro out of politics and all the questions eonnected with it, what a country we can plrosent. Reconstruction will be complete. This country must ever remain one. That has been settled, sir, by the prowess of our arms. Look.t it; what a glorious country if we could ge't this question out of it-the North and South, East and West all one country, and all of us recognizing as second only to God, the supremacy of our government, and the Constit utiou of the United States. Not subordinate to the State governments but each State coming in its place, forming a great arch. and carrying out the democratic theory of government. The various portions of our country all together presenting themselves, it would produce a glorious effect. My democratic friends, many measures of your policy have been adopted as the principles on which this government shall be administered, and they will stand forever. We want your counsel and aid, to help carry out this principle of self-government, and I believe if you will take hold with me and the rest of us, you can put the finish to this question now and forever. The men behind us, the voters behind you will do as you say, the strong men are here, the sachems are here. This Convention can give the final touches. Let us do it and finish it right here and then in a very short time we can live in one country and under one Constitution, and hope sir, but for one destiny. Mr. WEED —I desire, sir, to make some remarks upon the subject, but as it is near the ordinary time of our adjournment, I will move that the Committee do now rise, report progress and ask leave to sit atrain. The question was put on the motiun of Mr. Weed, and it was declared carried. Whereupon the committee rose. and the President resumed the Chair in Couvention. Mr. ALVORD, from the Committee of tha Whole, reported that the committee had had under consideration the report of the Committee on the Right of Suffrage and the Qualifications to Hold Office, and had made some progress therein, but not having gone through therewith, had instructed their Chairman to report that fact to the Convention, and ask leave to sit again. The question was put on granting leave, and it was declared carried. Mr. BELL-I move that the Convention take a recess until half-past seven o'clock this evening. 41 Mr. FOLGER-I move to amend that by making it at four o'clock P. x. Mr. ALVORD-I move that the Convention do now adjourn. Mr. M. I. TOWNSEND called for the ayes and noes on the motion to adjourn and a sufficieut number seconding the call, the ayes and noes were ordered. The question was then put on the motion to adjourn, and it was declared lost by the following vote: Ayes.-Messrs. C. L. Allen, N. M. Alien, Alvord, Armstrong, Baker, Barnard, Beckwith, E. Brooks, E. A. Brown, Burrill, Cassidy, Champlain, Cheritree, Cochran, Comstock, Conger, Corning, Curtis, Daly, T. W. Dwight, Endress, Fowler, Goodrich, Gross, Hale, Harris, Hitchman, Jarvis, Kernan, Ketcham, Larremore, Law, Livingston, Magee, Masten, Mattice, Murphy, Nelson, Opdyke, Paige, Pond, Priudle, Presser, Rogers, L. W. Russell, Schell, Scloonmaker, Schumaker, Smith. Tappen, S. Townsend, Van Campen, Veeder, Verplanck, Weed-55. Noes-Messrs. A. F. Allen, Andrews, Archer, Axtell, Ballard, Barker, Barto, Beadle, Bell, Bick. ford, Bowen. E. P. Brooks, W. C. Brown,Carpenter, Case, Chesebro, Colahan Cooke, Corbett, C. 0. Dwight, Eddy, Ely, Farnum, Ferry, Field, Flagler, Folger, Frank, Fullerton, Gould, Grant, Graves, Greeley, Hadley, Hammond, Hand, Hitchcock, Houston, Huntington, Kinney, Krum, Landon, A. Lawrence, M. H. Lawrence, Lee, Lowrey, Lud-, ington, Me Donald, Merrll, Merritt, Merwin, Monell, C. E. Parker, Potter, President, Rathbun, Reynolds, Rolfe, Root, Rumsey, Seaver, Silvester, Sheldon, Sherman, Stratton, M. I. Townsend, Tucker, Van Cott, Wakeman, Wales. Williams-69. Mr. GREELEY offered the following resolution: Resolved, That the debate in the Committee of the Whole, on the report of the Committee on Suffrage and the Qualifications to Hold Office, be closed at one o'clock to-morrow. The PRESIDENT-The resolution will be received at the proper time. The question now is upon the amendment of the gentleman from Ontario [Mr. Folger]. Mr. BARTO moved to amend so as to make it seven o'clock. Which was lost. The question was then put upon the amendment offered by Mr. Folger, and it was carried. The question was then put on the motion of Mr. Bell as amended, and it was declared to be carried. On motion of Mr. AXTELL, the Convention took a recess until four o'clock. AFTERNOON SESSION. The Convention re-assembled at four o'clock. Mr. ALVORD asked that the roll of the Convention be called. The SECRETARY proceeded to call the roll of the Convention, and it appeared that the following, delegates were present. Messrs. A. F. Allen, C. L. Allen, N. M. Allen, Alvord, Andrews, Archer, Armstrong, Axtell Ballard, Barker, Barnard, Barto, Beadle, Beckwith, Bell, Bickford, E. Brooks, E. P. Brooks, E.~ A. 322 Brown, AV. C. Brown, Burrill, Case, Cheritree, Chesebro, Clark. Clinton, Comstock, Conger, Cooke, Corbett, Curtis, Daly, Develin, Duganne, C. C. Dwight, T. W. Dwight, Ely, Endress, Evarts, Farnum, Flagler, Folger. Fowler, Frank, Fuller, Fullerton, Goodrich, Gould, Grant, Graves, Greeley, Hadley, Hale, Hammond, Houston, Huntington, Hutchins, Jarvis, Kernan, Ketcham, Kinney. Krum, Landon. Lapham, Larremore, A. Lawrence, M. H. Lawrence, Lee, Livinoston, Lowrey, Ludington, Masten, Mattice. McDonald, Merrill, Merwin, Monell, Murphy, Paige, Pond, Potter, President, Prindle, Prosser, Rathbun, Reynolds, Rolfe, Root, Rumsey, A. D. Russell, L. W. Russell, Seaver, Seymour, Silvester, Sherman, Smith, Stratton, Tappen, M. I. Townsend, S. Townsend, Tucker, Van Campen, Verplanck, Wakeman, Wales, Weed, Young. Mr. GREELEY-I ask a suspension of the rules, if it be necessary to introduce this resolution: "Resolved thatThe PRESIDENT-The Chair will inform the gentleman that the rules cannot be suspended except upon one day's notice. Mr. GREELEY-Then I will ask the unanimous consent of the Convention to introduce this resolution: " Resolved, that the debate in the Committee of the Whole.SEVERAL DELEGATES-I object. The PRESIDENT-By the rules, the regular call of the Calendar should be proceeded with until the order of unfinished business is reached. But there being no objection, this will be passed and the Convention will resolve itself into a Committee of WholeMr. CONGER-I hope not, Mr. President. The Convention took a recess and not an adjournment. The PRESIDENT - The Chair will state that the question was put to the Convention before the adjournment on granting leave to the Committee of the Whole to sit again and leave was granted. That order of business had been completed. * By the rules of order the next order of business is special orders and then general orders. The PRESIDENT proceeded to call special and general orders in the order of business. Mr. TAPPEN-I move that the Convention resolve itself into a Committee of the Whole on the report of the Committee on the Legislature its Organization, etc. The PRESIDENT-That report having been made to-day, it is now in the hands of the printer. Mr. ALVORD-I was just going to observe that I believed it would not be in order to consider the report of that committee in Committee of the Whole until it was. printed and laid upon the tables of members. The PRESIDENT resumed the call of the order of business. Mr. DUGANNE presented the petition of Hugh Gardiner and 172 others, citizens of New York, in favor of prohibiting the donation of public moneys to sectarian institutions. Which was referred to the Committee on the Powers and Duties of the Legislature. Mr. ALVORD-I move that all other order of business except the unfinished business of general orders be laid on the table. Mr. GREELEY-I object as I want to offer a resolution. Mr. ALVORD-I made a motion, Mr. President, that all order of business be laid on the table except unfinished business of general orders. Mr. DEVELIN-That requires a two-third vote, does it not? The PRESIDENT —The Chair will read the rule governing the order of business. It is as follows: " The first business of each day's session shall be the reading of the Journal of the preceding day and the correction of any errors that may be found to exist therein. After which, except on days and at times set apart for the consideration of special orders, the order of business, which shall not be departed from except by unanimous consent, shall be as follows," etc. Mr. KERNAN- I rise to a question of order. When a recess is taken, are we not, when we assemble again, in the same position as we were when we adjourned? The PRESIDENT-The Chair will hold that the order of business had been concluded when the Convention took a recess. Mr. GREELEY offered the following resolution: Resolved, That the debate in Committee of the Whole on the pending amendments be closed at five o'clock P. r. this day. Mr. DEVELIN-I propose to debate that resolution. The PRESIDENT- The Chair will inform the gentleman from New York [Mr. Develin] that the resolution can be now acted upon by the Convention, inasmuch as it relates to the business before the Convention and the business of the day. Mr. E. BROOKS-If it be in order I move to lay the resolution upon the table. The question was then put on the motion of Mr. Brooks and it was declared carried. A division being called for, the motion was sustained by a vote of 53 to 28. Mr. DUGANNE offered the following resolution. Resolved, That the Committee on Currency, Banking and Insurance, and the Committee oir Corporations other than Municipal, Banking and Insurance, be directed to confer together and report upon the expediency of providing for the creation of a State Department or Bureau of Corporations to have jurisdiction over all proper matters involving the public interest in banks, insurance companies and other joint stock corporations organized under the laws of the State, by special incorporation or charter, and requiring that all such joint stock corporations shall render annual statements of their affairs to be embodied in a report to the Legislature. Which was referred to the committees named in the resolution. Mr. W. C. BROWN-I move that the debate on the pending amendments be closed to-morrow afternoon at 12 o'clock. Which was laid on the table. The Convention then resolved itself into a C,,l 323 mittee of the Whole on the report of the Conm- sion were in earnest. I have no doubt they were mittee on the Right of Suffrage and the Qualifica- so intended, and I deeply regret that we have, tions to Hold Office; Mr. Alvord, of Onondaga, in any of us, departed from those professions. the Chair. Now, Mr. Chairman. as I look upon this question, The CHAIRMAN announced the pending ques- it is very simple - very simple indeed, and I will tion to be on the amendment offered by Mr. attempt briefly to show that it is simple, and I Murphy, to the substitute offered by Mr. C. C. cannot for the life of me see how men sitting here Dwight for the clause reported by the Committee. in their seats, desiring that the people of the State Mr. WEED -The question pending before this should govern and control these questions, Committee has been so fully discussed that no desiring a submission fairly, honestly and member can take the subject up and give it a full squarely, to the people of the State can consideration without repeating much that has come to but one conclusion upon it. The been said; I, therefore, at this time, knowing that individual opinions, Mr. Chairman, of any the Committee are wearied with the debate on member of this body, have nothing to do with the this subject, shall not attempt to fully discuss the questions pending before it, and ought not, I supquestions involved in the majority and minority pose in strict Parliamentary law, in pursuance of reports of the Committee on the Right of Suf- a strict rule, to be forced upon this Convention; rage, and the amendments pending before the and if other gentlemen had not spoken their indiCommittee to the article reported by the majority. vidual sentiments and opinion upon this subject, I I deem, Mr. Chairman, many of the positions should pass from the subject entirely, and I only taken by the different gentlemen who have ad- refer to it now that I may be placed right upon dressed this committee entirely outside of the the record, and that it may give more force pending question. The range of discussion has to the position that I take with reference to been very broad, and many subjects that seemed this question of submission - as I had the pleato me to be more fit for party issues in a party sure to state before this committee some days ago contest before the people have been discussed in reply to an answer, to a question 1 put to the than were pertinent to the question at issue gentleman from Columbia [Mr. Gould]. I am in before us. I regretted, Mr. Chairman, to see favor of abolishing the property qualification that these discussions. I regretted to see political lines prevents negroes in this State from exercising the attempted to be drawn, and political issues unlimited and unrestricted right of suffrage. attempted to be forced upon this Convention. I, in common with many other democrats in I regretted it the more, Mr. Chairman, because for this State believe that the negroes of this the first few weeks of this session we were so State to-day are competent to exercise honeyed towards each other; we were to have no the elective franchise. I desire that the political difference; questions of party politics and property qualification that prevents them from party policies were to be thrown out of this exercising it to its fullest extent may be swept Convention, and we were to meet here as from our Constitution. I desire to see at the men to discuss what was best for the State, polls in November, a submission of that question and after a thorough and candid discussion to the people, and I hope to see it carried by an to submit our deliberations to the people. We overwhelming majority. From this point of view, find, however, that upon the first question that believing, as I do, that the negroes of this State presented itself to this body, certain persons in are entitled to vote by reason of their intelligence, the majority have cried out that all men who have that they are in this State, whatever may be their acted with the democratic party must he in the condition-in other States of the Union, educated up wrong upon this, and if we may judge from to a proper amount of intelligence so that they are inferences, upon every other question that is before entitled to vote and can be safely allowed to parthis Convention, have at once raised party issues. ticipate in the government of the State. BelievIn some of these gentlemen I was not surprised. ing in this position, I approach this subject of The youthful ardor of my friend from Onondaga submission, as the only subject before us, without [Mr. Corbett] would lead his eloquent tongue off bias and only desire that it shall be submitted into such paths. The earnestness of my friend in the best possible manner. How then are we rtom Rensselaer [Mr. M. I. Townsend], and his to submit this question to the people, that they continued discussions on political questions would may take it and determine it? And in discussing lead him in that direction. And my friend and this question, I need but for a moment reiterate colleague from Clinton [Mr. Axtell] by his pro- the statement made by so many, and so fession is naturally thrown into the confused clearly of the position of the question before us. pool of politics, and, naturally, led to indulge in The pending amendment offered by the gentleman Political animosities and criminations; but that from Kings [Mr. Murphy] provides for an indethe humanitarians of this Conventic,n should pendent submission of this question to the people. have taken political ground upon this subject, and It does not, as stated by the gentleman from Genlade stump speeches, for political effect, upon esee [Mr. Wakeman] incorporate any new element this question did surprise me, and has sur- in the new Constitution. It does not pledge the Pnsed many, and it is with regret that I see party that the gentleman from Kings is an honorthose gentlemen avoiding the real question at ed representative of, to a submission of a property ""sle before this committee, and attempting qualification for electors to the people of this State. b sensation discourses to draw our minds from It is his idea of the mode in which this question tle Pending proposition. I trusted that the pro- should be submitted to the people. I am frank visions of these gentlemen-of all gentlemen upon to say, Mr. Chairman, that I cannot support his this floor, made at the commencement of the ses- amendment. I am as I have said, in favor of a 324 separate submission. I desire and believe it is eminently proper, just and right, that a separate submission of this question should be made to the people of this State. But I do not like the form in which the gentleman from Kings [Mr. Murply], puts it. It may be that the form of the proposition is simply a question of taste, supposing it to be submitted as a separate proposition; still I think that the objections to this form, taken by some who have spoken against the proposition of the gentleman from Kings [Mr. Murphy] may be a sound one; that it would tend to give the weight of this Convention against the proposition. I do not wish for one to have it placed in any such position. I wish a square independent amendment submitted upon this question of suffrage. I wish it submitted with the force of thn majority of this Convention in favor of the principle-the majority in numbers I speak of, not political majority. I wish it so framed; and if some other gentlemen do not, when the proper time comes. I myself will offer such an amendment, submitting the question fairly, submitting a section with the property qualification left out, and providing that that should be the Constitution of the State of New York, upon this subject, if it is ratified by the people, and if it is not ratified by the people then, the Constitution upon this subject must stand as it is to-day. This must be the result, in whatever form the submission is made, if it is not ratified by the people. And in this view it seems to me, with this idea of separate submission, no gentleman upon the floor of the House can object. It would bring the subject in a simple form directly before the people. It would give any man, no matter whatever his views may be upon any other question submitted; whether he could or could not sustain the Constitution as a whole, whether he had a special objection to any portion of it, an opportunity to walk up to the polls and cast his vote upon the question intelligently, honestly and fairly. Let us see, Mr. Chairman, what the objections of the political majority of this Convention are to this proposition-to this separate submission. Why do they wax so eloquent against it? Why does one gentleman say that it would be cowardice in this Convention, cowardice in their political party, to malke a separate submission of this question? Why do I see proscription of certain members of that party, who feel as I feel, that it should be submitted separately? Is there something behind this proposition to submit? If gentlemen are so anxious to defeat a separate submission that they will resort to their eloquence, that they will prescribe the members of their party who do not come up to their views, is there not something back of it that they desire? Do they desire to hold up some of their own peculiar plans and projects by this question? Do they desire to go before the people upon this quesion of suffrage, and compel the people upon this question to swallow other matters that may be submitted to them in this Constitution that would otherwise be defeated? Is it for the reason that there are party questions, that the are party policies,that there are local questions ad al policies, that are proposed to be driven / through with this question of negro suffrage? I believe that the great bulk of the political majority of this house believe that the negro suffrage question at the polls will be carried by a majority if separately submitted. 3 think if that question is submitted by itself, it will be carried, and carried by a large majority. And I am forced to the conclusion that the gentle. men in the majority upon the floor of this Convention believing so, with me, are actuated by some other motives, not acknowledged in this debate. I believe with the eloquent gentleman from Onondaga [Mr. Corbett], that the people will extend the right of suffrage to the black man. and I am not afraid to submit the question to the people. I do not fear but that they, as well as the gentleman from Onondaga, will keep time to the music of the Union, as he says, upon this subject. They will go to the polls and decide this question for themselves, and it seems to me, I cannot separate it in my mind, that there is some hidden object, some reason that we do not see upon the surface, some reason that they do not give us openly and fairly, why the majority of this body are bound to submit this question in with the body of the Constitution. Either this is so, or, Mr, Chairman, it may be that the gentlemen composing the majority of this body fear that negro suffrage, submitted as an independent proposition, would be defeated by the people of the State. I am aware that the gentleman from Clinton [Mr. AxtellJ, my colleague, takes that distinct ground, as a respresentative of the majority. Mr. AXTELL - I beg leave to correct the gentleman. I have not taken the ground that it would be defeated, or very likely to be defeated. AMr. WEED -I was prepared for the interruption for from the second or third speech that the gentleman made on this subject, I saw that he was taking in sail gradually, but I supposed lie had not come to the point to deny, and I have before me the remarks of the gentleman which I will read on that subject. He says: "I grant, sir, that if you were to submit this question as a distinct proposition to the people of this State it might possibly be defeated. And why? Because, sir, unfortunately, in connection with the principle of manhood suffrage which is imbedded in the public mind, and which will continue to be imbedded there, we cannot rule out certain criminal classes who will vote against extending the right of suffrage to the negro. That is all sir. Tie gamblers of the State will vote against it. All that class of persons who are notorious criminals, and who are always at the polls will vote against it. * * * But, sir, as I have said, there is a class of persons who have still a prejudice, and who deny to colored men rights that they would have themselves-are the class who murdered and burned negroes in the riots in New York in 1863. These are the men, generally, who, if, the question were untrammeled by party and party influences, who would vote against the extension of the right of suffrage to the colored man." He says then that if it is not put in the body of the Constitution, it may be defeated. Mr. AXTELL-The entleman said, as I :)92 understood him, that I hnd said that it would be likely to he defeated. That, is not what I said, nor has he made that statement good, as I understand him. Mr. WEED-I stated in substance what I have read from his remarks. I said that gentlemen on the other side of the House, and the gentleman from Clinton [Mr. Axtell], has said that they voted for a submission of this question in the body of the Constitution, because it might be defeated if separately submitted, and proceeded to give the reasons why it would be likely to be defeated, and those were substantially the words used by the gentleman. Mr. AXTELL - Will the gentleman allow me to correct him again? I submit to this committee that there is no such statement in my words, and no such inference can fairly be drawn, that I feared it might be defeated. Mr. WEED - The technicality of the gentleman's words is, evidently, not a matter of interest to the committee. If the gentleman can deny that the legitimate conclusion of his words are that the reason he voted for putting the negro suffrage question into the body of the Constitution was that it would be more likely to be carried than if it was a separate proposition, I have no objection. If he will come up and say that he did not so state, and take back the words I have read, I will acquit him. If not, the words show that the reason that actuated him in his vote, was that he feared, whether he used the word or not, that it might be defeated if separately submitted. But I ask the majority of this Convention, for it seems to me that is the only rational reason that can be given (if they are acquitted of a desire to carry through other matters with this proposition), if they are prepared to assume the position of the gentleman from Clinton [Mr. Axtell] as their position upon this question, that they, the representatives of a great party of great principles, as they call themselves, and believing in the people, dare not go before the people with a single proposition of this kind, dare not submit the question of negro suffrage to the electors of this State, without complicating it and twisting it up. and tying it up with other issues. It is in that unfortunate position that I see the political majority of this body. It is in that position that I regret to see them, because, as I have said, it is not a political question. I see them holding out to the world that they need other issues linked with this issue to procure its adoption. I see them holding out to the world the flag of truce, saying that they fear to come before the people of the State of New York upon this one distinct issue. I here see them saying upon this one issue alone we may be defeated, although we have a political majority in this State. Mr. MERRITT —Will the gentleman from Clinton [Mr. Weed] allow me to ask him a question. What proposition is it proposed that the political majority of this Convention desire to Carry through by submitting it in the Constituion? One other. Has it been proclaimed upon this floor? If so, I would like to be informed. I ask simply for information. Mr. WEED —Mr. Chairman, it has been my habit in this world, when I see men going back upon themselves, when I see men refusing to ' take" as I will call it by a very homely phrase, "the bull by the horlns'" when I see them failing to walk up and meet the issue distinctly, and trying to complicate it and mix it up with other issues, to suppose that there is some reason for it. I see the republican majority of this house in that condition. I see them fearing to take this matter squarely tc the people, and I at once look for the reason. I don't know what that reason is, but I say this, it can be but one of the two that I have mentioned. If the gentleman, as I have no doubt he will, will deny that it is from cowardice that he refuses to submit this question separately, then I say here in my place that I cannot see any other reason, except it be to carry through with it some political or local projects, and I say that it is a direct consequence of that state of facts. I do not know what those projects are. I trust there are none. I hope the majority of the house and the minority together will submit this question separately, and by an unanimous vote, to the people. I trust that they will not, as I was about to say, place this question before the people in a way that speaks to the people as follows: we cannot trust you to decide upon this question for yourselves. I believe in the position taken by the honorable gentleman from Oneida, upon the question of the natural rights of suffrage. His argument upon that subject meets my views more fully than any other gentleman's upon the floor of the Convention. I hold that in the people of the State of New York rest to-day the right to say who shall and who shall not vote. I believe and have always believed that that right rested in the people of every State, and I hold that to be the democratic doctrine. Mr. GREELEY —I would like to ask the gentleman who are the people that have a right to decide whether other people shall vote or not. Mr. WEED-I am happy that the gentleman has asked that question. They are the people who under the Constitution of the State of New York have a right to the elective franchise. They are the only people-I do not believe in any higher law, and I do not believe in any political right above the rights that we as the people of the State, as the community, are entitled to. I believe the people of the State who have the right under the present Constitution, are the people, and the only people in a political sense, and every man it seems to me must, unless he cuts himself entirely loose from all Constitutions and from all laws-unless he says that I do not believe in any political or civil organization. It seems to me that there can be no doubt, but that the people who to-day have the right of suffrage in this State under the Constitution of the State, and the Constitution of the United States are politically the people of this State, and it is for them to say who shall vote, whether they will extend or restrict the election franchise, and I, as one of those people, simply express my opinion that that elective franchise can with safety and propriety be extended ia this State to negroes. And I have more faith in the people of the State of New York than other gntlemen who have spoken on the other side. I hawr 326 more faith than the gentleman who last addressed a Convention, and the people of the State, to me [Mr. Greeley]. I believo,as I have said, that the whom we are by law compelled to submit people of the State of New York, if this question our conclusions, are the legally qualified elect. is fairly submitted to them, have made up their ors and qualified voters of this State to-day minds upon it and will decide it in the affirmative. not the negroes or the women, because under the If they do not, I would ask the gentlemen upon Constitution they cannot exercise the elective the other side, what is the remedy? Does the franchise. I return then, Mr. Chairman, to my gentleman from Westchester [Mr. Greeley] pro- proposition and say that there can be but one of pose to appeal from the verdict of the people? these two reasons why the majority refise to sub. And if in case this Constitution is submitted and mit this question separately. Gentlemen ask: voted down by the electors who vote at the next why not submit every other proposition by itself? November election, does he propose that the Now, Mr. Chairman, I think it should be so, and negroes shall vote, whether the people say they believing as I do in the virtue and capacity of shall or shall not have this right? the people, I think that every proposition that Mr. GREELEY-I would like to answer the can be fully and intelligently submitted to the gentlemen now. I propose that the black citizens people, every proposition not so complicated but shall vote this fall by the action of this Conven- that the people may walk ulD to the polls and tion, on the ratification of its action, and that will vote upon it understandingly, should be be according to the precedent of the Constitution submitted to the people of this State for of 1821, which was likewise submitted to be rati- their adoption, separately. But I see a fled by the men whom that Constitution enfran- marked distinction between this question and chised. any other question, that can be or will be sub-. Mr. WEED -I would like to ask the gentle- mitted by this Convention to the people. That man a question. Does he propose to allow them distinction, Mr. Chairman, is this: we may to vote in violation of statute? not be able to disentangle from the ConMr. GREELEY —I suppose that the Constitu- stitution we may frame here, the executive, tion is above the statute. legislative or judicial system; it may be framed Mr. WEED- I suppose the gentleman does by this Convention upon one great scheme, or in not care for the statute and if he was discussing pursuance of one peculiar governmental policy the statute he would not care for the and so interwoven among themselves that it will Constitution. [Laughter.] I am not above the be almost impossible to submit them separatelystatutes of the State, nor am I above the Consti- so interwoven that they will not harmonize if one tution of the State. I believe that the people who, is adopted and the other rejected, and for this under the statute and the Constitution. have the reason it may be that we cannot submit these right to vote, will determine this question and propositions separately. But when you come that they alone have the right, and when they have to this question of franchise, it has nothing determined it, I suspect that the gentleman from to do with the scheme of State government: Westchester [Mr. Greeley] and myself, however it has nothing to do with the formation of a much we may dislike it, will have to submit and Constitution under which we may carry on the abide by the decision of the people. And I tell him government; it is entirely independent of it, and and the other gentlemen acting with him, that if it covers simply the question as to who shall, he does not know now, who the people of the State under that Constitution, exercise the elective are he will find out when they pass upon this franchise, and participate in giving effect to its question and it becomes a part of the organic law of provisions, if the remainder is ratified, or if the the land. Let me say a word or two more in refer- remainder is defeated, then who shall exercise the ence to the question he asks. Who are the people? right, under our present Constitution. In that view Of course, in determining this question if' we of the case, it ought not to be trammeled in any disregard the Constitution and the Statute, and do way by a joint submission with other questions. not refer to enfranchised citizens, then the people It cannot be affected except improperly, by any of the State are the living, moving, breathing other clause in the Constitution. It must rest upon human beings, and if that is what lie means by itself, and be an independent proposition, suggest the people, I wish to ask him the question ing itself to every man's mind, whether or not le whether he proposes that the women shall vote believes that the negroes of this State are suffiupon the question of the adoption of the Constitu- ciently intelligent to exercise the elective frantion we are to frame for submission. chise. If he believes they are, it is the duty, the Mr. GREELEY-Certainly, if we decide to en- right and the privilege of every man in the State franchise them, I shall insist that they be allowed of New York who is a voter in November next to and authorized to vote on the adoption of this Con- deposit his vote in favor of that proposition. If *stitution. he believes that they are not -honestly believes Mr. WEED —The gentleman goes deeper it —it is his right, his privilege and his duty to and deeper every step. Our action here vote against it. whatever may be the effect 'eannot affect the Aght of the people. If upon the political organization that he may; women, then. beqause they are a part of the "peo- vote with. It is a right that he has to vote 'ple" are entitled to vote upon the question of upon this question, yes, or no. Let us..adopting this Constitution, then they will have see if he has that right under a general sub-,.the sele same right to vote upon it if we do not mission of the provisions we may adopt in this enfranchise them. We give them no additional Convention. I asked a question of the gentlerights by submitting to the people of the State a man from Columbia [Mr. Gould] the other day, proposition that may emanate from us as which, it seems to me, is quite conclusive upon 327 that subject. I asked him how lie could, conscientiously, go to the polls and vote upon this question, if there was embodied in that Constitution, something that he could not give his honest assent to-would lie not be put in the position of voting directly for that which he knew to be wrong, or else voting against negro suffrage, which lie believes to be right, and to vote against which, I know from his remarks, would give him great pain. He wisely avoided answering that questionMr. GOULD- Will the gentleman allow me to explain. I was not at all aware of avoiding any question whatever. When I replied to the question, I was arguing that no intelligent democrat would desire to vote against that proposition. That was the reason I assigned why there should be no separate submission and the gentleman himself responded to me at once, that he would not desire to vote against it. I supposed, sir, I had given the most full and ample answer. If the gentleman still desires me to tell him why it is impossible to submit this question without a fraud upon the voters. I will do so now. Mr. WEED-I shall be very happy to have the gentleman do so, unless he is going to repeat what he said the other day and take half an hour. If so I shall have to object. Mr. GOULD-Five minutes will do it. Mr. WEED-I shall be happy to give the gentleman five minutes. Mr. GOULD-Then I say, a separate submission is an absolute fraud upon the voters of this State, and let me take a single illustration, which, [ think, will convince the gentleman himself. Suppose, sir, that the gentleman from Albany [Mr. Harris] should bring a proposition into this Convention, that the Baptist Church, of which he is an honored and distinguished member, shall be made the religion of the State, and suppose this Convention resolves that this question shall be submitted to the people of the State. How am I going to vote intelligently upon that question. I agree ex animo to every single line and letter of the Constitution as it stands and if nothing but this Constitution is to be enacted by the people, I agree to it most heartily and believe it is a very great improvement upon the Constitution we now have. But how am I to vote upon that provision of the Constitution, I do not want any Baptist Church as the State religion, or any other church and if that should be by any contingency be interpolated in the Constitution. it will be like the fly in the ointment of the apothecary, which shall cause every portion of it to stink in my nostrils. And i' I desire to vote upon the Constitution which I fully approve, and believe that tile intelligence of the people of this State will at once vote down this doctrine, yet I may find myself mistaken, and I may find, although I have voted for the Constitution, yet I have absolutely, by the contingency of the separate subUission of that question, been voting to impose upon the people, a thing I utterly abhor. But let us take the very question before the comnittee. We all know who it is that opposes the "nagur vote," we may vote for it in Convention and we may submit the Constitution, we shall provide separately to their judgment, and they may labor under the impression that this negro suffrage question will be voted down, and under that apprehension they may vote for the Constitution as proposed, and it will be a fraud upon our Irish fellow citizens, for they will find themselves saddled with a Constitution which they might possibly have voted down but for that mistake and this error. It is for this reason that if we attempt to have a separate submission it must prove a fraud and a snare, which no honest man ought to desire to impose on the people of this State. That is the answer, sir. Mr. WEED -I am again pleased, sir. If I wanted anything more to convince this Convention that there oirght to be a separate submission, it must be convinced by the statement of the gentleman from Columbia [Mr. Gould]. The case he puts is put with so much more strength and vigor than I could put it, and must be so conclusive to his own mind and every body else's mind that I thank him for it and take the case as he puts it. Suppose we have a Contitution which is every thing a man can want, and if eighty-one members put a proposition into it that the Baptist Church shall be the reigning religion of this State, the gentleman says that it would be a fraud upon the people of the State to submit that question separately. It would be a fraud upon this people to give them a Constitution that would be the best they could live under in the world - it would be a fraud to give them all their hearts could wish as a people and give it to them separate from this question of religion, or should this religious question be submitted as a separate proposition to the people, that they might, as they would, throw it to the winds and take that which was so good, which was formed with such care and power, to themselves as their Constitution, and throw out that which they did not like. It seems to me that no position could be stronger, in favor of a separate submission than this, and I thank the gentleman for his explanation. He certainly made no such answer when I asked him the question the other day; and I thank him for it now. And I thank him for another remark-a remark that shows the feeling and sentiments of the gentleman and those with whom he acts; and it is when he gave the Irish intonation to the word "nagur." It shows that he in his humanitarian spirit, looks above any man with a white skin; It shows that he believes, from the bottom of his heart, the principle that he tried to inculcate in the Convention, that the negro was infinitely superior to the white man. Mr. GOULD -The gentleman must not misquote me. I said no such thing as the gentlemant says. Mr. WEED-He said in answer to the gentleman from Kings [Mr. Murphy], that he knew of a black man who he said might not be the equal of the gentleman from Kings [Mr. Murphy], but that he was the equal of every other man in the Convention. Mr. GOULD-No sir. Mr. WEED-I do not intentionally intend to misquote the gentleman.,Mr, GOULD-I was speaking then solely on 328 the question of politeness, and not upon the ques- graphically portrayed by the gentleman from tion of intellect, when I said that, and on good Genesee [Mr. Wakeman] and follow it out a little manners. That is all, sir. further. He said, if I remember right, that when Mr. WEED-I cannot distinguish the different that negro who was scarred in his country's positions taken by the gentleman. I know some cause, presented his credentials at the polls with of his positions had reference to shin bones and the broad seal of the United States upon them, others to intellect, for I heard him talking about showing that he had done service for his country, negroes making almanacs, and asking if any mem- that he was told by the inspector that the people ber of this Convention could calculate an almanac, of the State, had kept the property qualification in and I had to admit that I could not make'an the Constitution. and that for that reason he could almanac. And I think I heard him talk about not exercise the right of suffrage-that he had politeness, and I think that every one who heard not the two hundred and fifty dollars. I ask him him must beconvinced that that black men referred to go with me to that place where the inspector to by him was in his opinion our equal in intellect would tell the negro, "No, you cannot vote. The and much our superior in politeness. I say I am Convention assembled to reform the Constitution of glad that the gentleman gave the intonation that the State of New York, in which Convention was a he did, for it accords well with the sentiments ex- member from the county in which that lamented pressed by the gentleman from Clinton [Mr. Ax- General lived, the death sweat from whose brow tell], my colleague, when he referred, the other you so kindly wiped, determined for some reason I day, to the democratic party as composed entirely. know not what, for some political or party reason, or substantially of those who were guilty of the that the question as to whether you should be riots in the city of New York. allowed to vote, should not be submitted to the peoMr. AXTELL-I rise to a point of order. Is it pie of this State by itself, and that that Convention in order to make political stump speeches in this hampered the question of your right to vote with session? a distasteful judiciary system, or with a distasteful The CHAIRMAN-The Chair is of the opin- canal system, or with a distasteful finance system, ion that the point of order is not well taken. and it all went down together, and for that reason Mr. WEED-I am sorry, Mr. Chairman, to dis- you cannot vote." I tell him that if he desires, or if turb the gentleman, but when I heard the any other man desires to extend the elective remarks of the gentleman from Clinton [Mr. franchise to the negro in this State, they will Axtell], and heard the eloquent remarks of the submit it as a distinct, naked proposition to gentleman from Onondaga [Mr. Corbett], 1 the people. If they desire to hamper it, thought then, they should have compared notes if they desire to have it depend on this issue, that beforehand. The one threw out the idea before issue and the other issue, if my learned friend this Convention and the people of the State, that from Westchester [Mr. Greeley], desires it to the democratic party consisted of Irishmen. who depend on the question whether the people of the were ready to go into a riot at any time, and the State will sell their canals, then they will submit gentleman from Onondaga [Mr. Corbett], slightly it all together. intimated that we were politically, if not in fact, Mr. GREELEY-I desire to ask the gentleman know-nothings. I think they do not agree. a question. I wish to know if the gentleman from Mr. CORBETT-If the gentleman will allow Clinton [Mr. Weed], did not himself in this Hall, me to make a correction. I did not intimate it as last winter, want to enfranchise the blacks as I broadly as the gentleman suggests, but I said proposed to do it, by a simple act of the Legisthere was a strong sprinkling in that direction. lature. Mr. WEED -There may be a strong sprink- Mr. WEED-When the gentleman was up last ling in some places, but it is not in my direc- I came very near answering that question tion, and never was. I simply refer to it to myself, but it occurred to me that it was my show the arguments which are used, and I private action, and not of interest to the Convenregretted exceedingly that gentlemen should tion, and thought I would not for that reason say utter such things upon a question of this kind, anything about it, although I wanted to. I have that they should so far forget the position been waiting for the gentleman from Westchester they occupy here, as to try, by throwing slurs at [Mr. Greeley] or some other gentleman, to ask me the democratic party and members of that party, this question. I, as a representative upon the to carry through what I cannot believe to be right. floor of the assembly in 1867, was called upon to Those are the arguments and I know they are determine who should cast their votes for the electhe only arguments I have heard, in favor of the tion of members to this Convention. The question separate submission, and I refer to it to show came up then, whether negroes should be allowed that they are not arguments, but appeals to the to vote at that election. I claimed that a member passions of the members of this Convention. As of this Convention was not an officer within the I said before, the ground has been so fully meaning of the present Constitution, and, therecovered, that no man can make a speech fore, there was no prohibition in the Constitution upon this subjeet connectedly without repeat- that would prevent a negro's voting for members of ing many things which have been said, the Convention, if the Legislature by statute gave so that I shall confine myself to answer- them that right, and that, for that reason, the Legising peculiar positions taken by gentlemen on lature had a right to say who should vote at the the other side against separate submission; and election of such members. They had a right to right here in this connection (and I trust it is the say, by statute, who should vote to bring into last time I will refer to anything said by a mem- existence delegates to this Convention, and for.-bW) I wih to take up the election soene so that reason, believing then, as I believe nor, tnat negroes in this State have sufficient capaci- to show when I was fired into that there must be ties and intelligence to vote, I voted that they some good reason for the responsible majority of might vote for the election of members to this this House taking the position that they do, and I Convention. The statute passed by the majority will close my remarks upon that subject by rethat the gentleman represents upon the floor of this peating that it must be one of the two reasons Convention, said that nobody should vote upon the that I have given. It must be fear or it must be adoption of this Constitution, but persons entitled a desire to carry through other measures. I have to vote for members of Assembly, hence I say said in answer to questions that the position of that unless you violate the law, a man cannot the Democratic party was that the people of the vote upon the adoption of the Constitution State alone could govern and control this questhat we submit, unless he be a qualified voter tion of franchise. Many of the statements made of the State, while in my view of the political by gentlemen on this floor have shown that status of a member of this Convention, negroes they have mixed the position that I take, were not disqualified under the present Consti- that the people of the State alone, have the tution from voting for that office, if the Legis- power and have the right to decide, with the lature authorized them so to do; and I may policy that many of them advocate, to wit: that state here that I was sustained, and ably sustained is, that the republican majority in the United by the Attorney-General of the State of New States, have the right to force upon the people of York, a member of the gentleman's own party, the different States just what they please with and by a large number in both houses, in that regard to this question of suffrage. There is position. That is exactly my position. There I where they err. I do not think with them, that claimed it could have been done according to law. the Congress of the United States has the power Here it can be done only as the gentleman from to force negro suffrage upon the people of the Westchester [Mr. Greeley] proposes to do it, in States. I do not think that the slaves of the violation of law. Southern States are to-day qualified to exercise the Mr. AXTELL-I would like to ask the gentle- right of elective franchise. I do not think it would man a question, with his permission. Does he be just, proper or safe for any party to give regard the democratic party responsible for the them unlimited power to-day, politically, and I riot referred to, and if net, with what pertinency, take the two positions, that of the gentleman or with what justice does he charge me with hav- from Genesee [Mr. Wakeman] and that of the ing assumed that they were responsible for the gentleman from New York [Mr. Colahan], to riot? prove my position upon this question. I admit Mr. WEED-Mr. Chairman, the question of the with the gentleman from Genesee [Mr.Wakeman], New York riots is a subject that has been quite that it was an unfortunate state of affairs, I will fully discussed heretofore. The gentleman say, a disgraceful state of affairs in the Southern has been eloquent about it upon the stump, States, that prevented the teaching of a black as others have. I myself do not, and never man to read and write. I admit that, with did hold the democratic party or any other my voice, it never should have existed, but I party responsible for those unfortunate occur- can see what he fails to see, that whatever the rences. I have heard it repeatedly attributed cause, the mind of the great mass of blacks in to the democratic party. The direct deduc- those States is still ignorant, and until that mind tions from his remarks and the only application is instructed, whatever may have been the cause made by the gentleman, was substantially as I of his ignorance, however outrageous it was upon have stated. I have given his words. It was to humanity to keep him in ignorance, until he is edube sure in connection with his idea, that all the cated, he is not competent to perform the duties of gamblers would vote against him when he went a citizen. That I believe to be the true position. to the polls, but nevertheless the direct inference That I believe to be the position of the Democratic from his remarks was that the democratic party party. I have no right to speak for that party. was Opposed to negro suffrage, and was corn- I simply speak for myself. I would say of that Posed of that element. I so understand it, and party, however, a.s it has been attacked by the Other gentlemen who heard him. so understood gentleman from Wyoming [Mr. Merrill], that it him. I am happy to know, as I do to-night, that may be led to-day by Bourbons, it may have been the gentleman does not claim that the democratic led for years by Bourbons, but he must remember party was responsible for that riot. It is the first that it was the red republicans, the Robespierres, time I have ever known a gentleman occupying the bloody rebels of France that overthrew the his Position in public, to admit it. Bourbons, and that they deluged the country in Mr. AXTELL -The gentleman misrepresents blood when they did it, and that they left the. people a worse government than the one they The CHAIRMAN — The Chair will inform the dethroned, yet they cried liberty, and humanity, gentleman from Clinton [Mr. Axtell], that he is and they kept step to the music of progress, as not in order. If the gentleman desires to ask they thought, they lived for the future, they disany question he must do so through the Chair. regarded the past. It is because I cannot follow Mr. WEED - I am willing he should ask me a in the theories of my friend from Onondaga [Mr. question. I don't understand that the gentleman Corbett], and keep step to his idea of " the music of from Clinton [Mr. Axtell], proposes to ask a ques- the union," because I can't throw entirely behind tin, but that he is going to make a speech. me the past, and only look to the future, without any The CHAIRMAN-I must enforce the rules guidance from the experience of the past, that I itod r. am said to belong to a party led by "Bourbons." I 'Ir. WEED- Mr. Chairman, I was attempting am in favor of progress, nbt that progressthat 42 330 uproots a nation; that, disregarding the past entirely, is led by reckless enthusiasts, who, to gratify a favorite idea, would lead our land to ruin; but that progress, that seeks from the errors of the past to guide the bark of State safely in the future, that progress that careful thinking men approve, and that works out its benefits to mankind silently, but surely. I am not in favor of revolutionary progress. I know that some suppose the gentleman from Wyoming [Mr. Merrill], to have referred to another class of Bourbons. [Laughter.] I didn't so understand him. If he did I should have thought that he would have hardly called hie own leader to account for leading the Democracy. I do not see any difference in that view, between Bourbn and Rye [laughter], for they are the same kind of leaders, and equally divided politically. But Mr. Chairman, as I have said before, these questions have nothing to do with the real issue; the question is one of how we shall submit this proposition, whether it is best that it should be submitted as a separate and independent proposition, or as a proposition in with the body of the instrument. I wish to call the attention of this committee to one other thing. Suppose we have but three or four amendments to propose to this Constitution in the end, shall we propose an entire new Constitution, or submit them separately. It would be the proper way, as it seems to me, with all these questions before us; and the only way to submit this question to the people, if we believe in it, is to submit it as an independent proposition. I wish to say one word upon the other amendments for the proposed extension, in regard to the registry law. The gentleman from Westchester [Mr. Greeley], and other gentleman have advocated that strenuously. The CHAIRMAN-The Chair will inform the gentleman from Clinton, [Mr. Weed] that that subject is not now before the attention of the Committee. Mr. WEED-I supposed that the two questions before the Committee were the questions presented by this amendment, of the gentleman from Cayuga [Mr. C. C. Dwight], which is proposed to be amended by the gentleman from Kings [Mr. Murphy]. The CHAIRMAN - The gentleman from Clinton [Mr. Weed] is entirely correct. Mr. WEED -The question of Mr. C. C. Dwight's amendment involves the very question I refer to. It proposes to leave out as I understand it, the thirty-day clause. If I am mistaken about that the Chair will correct me. The CHAIRMAN -The Chair will inform the gentleman from Clinton [Mr. Weed] that he is right; therefore it seems to me that it is properly under consideration. The Chair understood the gentleman from Clinton [Mr. Weed] as referring to the latter part of the report of the committee in regard to the registry law. Mr. WEED-It was probably a mistake of my own. I said registry, when I meant to say "residence." It seems to me there is no necessity for that change, as has been ably argued by others here. I can add nothing to their arguments. We should make no change in the Constitution that has served us so well for twenty years, unless it is necessary, and I know of no complaint upon this subject. I agree fully with those who would strike out that portion of this report disfranchising paupers, for I look upon that as covering, as the gentleman from Broome [Mr. Hand] has said, all those who have received temporary relief under the statute, within thirty days from an election; and we know that many old and enfeebled persons have to be relieved in that way under our existing statute. It is one of the best features of our State government that we have the power, and that we have officers whose duty it is to relieve the wants of such people, without compelling them to go to public poorhouses, and such people would be denied the right of voters, if the amendment proposed by the report of the committee, is adopted. Can it be that it is progress, to disfranchise the unfortunate - I trust it may never be done. In conclusion, it seems to me that the views of the minority report are right. This matter should be separately submitted. Mr. MASTEN - I do not rise for the purpose of making any extended remarks on the question before the committee-still I desire to submit some observations. I have neither the information nor the resolution to enter upon all the subjects which have been explored by gentlemen during this debate. I shall make no attempt to photograph the colored man in his person,nor give the measurement of his moral, intellectual or social powers. Neither shall I attempt to draw any comparison between the white man with a brain, the result of centuries of culture, and the colored man in his present condition. I doubt not he is capable of culture. Nor shall I attempt on this occasion to discuss the merits of colored suffrage, because. Mr. Chairman, I do not believe that my duty in this body calls upon me to do so. I shall endeavor to confine myself to two points-to express my opposition to the principle embodied in the first branch of the amendment of the gentleman from Kings [Mr. Murphy], and to maintain that this question of colored suffrage slhould be separately submitted to the people for their consideration and determination. I am opposed, sir, to the principle by which the possession of property is made the test to vote. I have always supposed that the party with whom I have acted from my youth upward was opposed upon principle to the property test, and I regretted at the time, and I still regret, sir, that the gentleman's amend. ment sustained the first branch or clause, because, being an amendment to the amendment of the gentleman from Cayuga [Mr. 3. C. Dwight], it is in effect a proposition to make in a certain case the possession of property a test to the right to vote. The gentleman, at the time that he introduced his amendment, stated that he himself was opposed to the property test, and I was at a loss to see how the gentleman was going to vote for that amendment until he subsequently explained. He said that he found the provision in the present Constitution, and he was willing to leave it there. Sir, if there be no other reason why the colored man should not be clothed with the elective franchise than that he has not a certain amount of property, then he should be clothed with it. If the only reason in favor of confer 331 ring upon the colored man the right to vote, is, that he has that amount of property, then he should not be invested with this manly privilege. I suppose, sir, that possibly another consideration may have operated upon the mind of the gentleman [Mr. Murphy], which he has not stated to us here. If the question was submitted to the people, whether or not the colored man should vote, and the result should be, perchance, against him, that he should not vote, then certain persons who now have the right to vote would be disfranchised, and it is possible that that may have influenced the gentleman in introducing this amendment. I would prefer that some other provision should be made than the property test in that case. I should prefer that some provisions should be made in the event of the vote being adverse to colored suffrage, that the colored men who now have the right to vote, should continue to have the right to vote during their natural lives,whether they continue to be possessed of property on not, I am sir, in favor of a separate submission of the question of colored suffrage. So much has already been said on that subject, and ably said by gentlemen, that I shall content myself with simply stating certain propositions without much argument or demonstration, indeed without any. I am in favor of submitting every distinct subject in respect to which there is any doubt as to the will of the people, and which if adopted or rejected would not render the instrument we shall prepare incongruous or detective. I am in favor of submitting this question separately, because we are acting here in a representative capacity, and it is our duty as I understand it, to express the will of the people, and not only that, but so to prepare and present our work, that those whose agents we are may adopt what they approve and reject what they disapprove. This question must be submitted to the people. I don't know that there is any desire not to give them a full opportunity to pass upon it. The people must pass upon it, and the question is, or should be, Mr. Chairman, how can it be submitted to the people so as to give them the best opportunity to examine it and to pronounce upon it an intelligent and sober judgment. Is there not doubt as to what the will or judgment of the people is on this subject to-day? How can the will of the people be so well ascertained as by a separate submission? What other way is so direct, so simple, so honest and so fair to the people? This question has been submitted to the people upon former occasions and passed upon by them, and if the expressions they then gave are any criterion by which to form our judgment now, it would be that the people are adverse to free colored suffrage, and that any Constitution which should contain a provision in favor of it would be rejected. But, sir, I am of the opinion that those expressions are not a certain criterion by which to judge of their present opinion or their present judgment upon the question. Great changes have taken place since these votes. The status of the colored man has changed, and the condition of things affecting this question also has changed. At that time there were millions of colored men in slavery, and but few free. The relations and obligations of the States to each other under the Constitution were such that the policy of making colored men part of the governing classes in this State was of exceedingly doubtful policy. Some changes have taken place. The gentleman from Oneida [Mr. T. W. Dwight], told us that he voted against free suffrage on the former occasions, and has been converted. He told us of his conversion. I hope other changes have taken place. I certainly hope so, and I wish I could gather more encouragement than I am able to from the change of the gentleman from Oneida [Mr. T. W. Dwight]. If he had told me that he had solved the matter out upon statesman-like principles, and had arrived in that way at the conclusions he has come to, then I should have hoped for more from it. For that is the way in which the people will examine this question; they are going to reason about it and determine upon statesman-like principles. But from the manner in which the gentleman was converted, knowing as I do that he is a gentleman of a logical mind and of fine acquirements, I cannot but regard his conversion as miraculous. There is another reason, sir, why I am in favor of submitting this proposition separately, and that is the importance of this question. The right to vote, although conventional, is a precious one. It is one of the highest rights possessed by the citizen. To be an elector is to be a member of the governing class, a component part of the sovereignty. I desire that my constituents, the people of this State, should have the opportunity of examining that question by itself. I do not desire, and, sir, I am not willing in order that my individual wish may prevail, to boost up this question, by connecting it with others, to the embarrassment of the people; nor am I willing that it should be voted down by being connected with questions which may prejudice it. I am unwilling to compel the people, in order to get what they want, to take what they do not want. I am unwilling to compel them to reject what they want, because it is mixed up with things which they find too unpalatable to take, or which they believe to be detrimental to their interests. There is still another reason why I think this question should be separately submitted. We are here at no little inconvenience to ourselves, and at some expense to the State. We shall doubtless present some very desirable changes in the organic law-changes desired on all hands by the people, as well as the members of this Convention-and I am unwilling that they should be rejected and our labor should go for naught, by being connected with any question in respect to which the will of the people is doubtful Sir, there are several other reasons which I might' state here in this connection, but which have been alluded to, and I shall not therefore detain the committee, because I see the committee is impatient to rise. At least one gentleman who has spoken some four or five times on this question, desires to cut off debate to those who have not spoken or had an opportunity to. It is quite natural now to ask why not submit this distinct proposition separately? No proposition can be placed so distinct from eery. 332 thing else. Its adoption or rejection will not hundred and fifty dollars as the condition of exaffect or disturb any of the other parts of the tending the right of suffrage to a portion of the instrument we will prepare. Why not submit it? mFn of color, is by no means an essential-part of.The gentleman from Westchester [Mr. Greeley] this amendment. That simply, as I understand says it will produce confusion. I am certain, it, is embraced for the benefit of the men of color whatever confusion it may produce in his mind or having property to the value of two hundred and in his action, the people will have no trouble of fifty dollars. For one, sir, I am perfectly content to that description about it. I believe the people strike the property qualification out and present have greater capabilities than he seems to think the question fairly to the people, whether they they possess. Another gentleman said it would will extend unqualified suffrage to men of color be cowardice to submit it separately. That has or not. In the Convention of 1846, Mr. Charles -been so fully and conclusively answered by the P. Kirkland, who was in favor of negro suffrage, gentleman from Essex [Mr. Hale], that I will introduced as an amendment this identical clause say nothing on the subject. There was another now contained in the Constitution of 1846, copied gentleman,; the gentleman from Clinton [Mr. from the Constitution of 1822. He found, sir, from Axtell], who said this question should not be sub- the opinion of the Convention, that they mitted separately, because (I do not exactly were in favor of retaining that clause, and that remember his language) it might possibly be nothing more could be obtained. So, sir, he indefeated because gamblers and other evil- troduced it; and the amendment upon the disposed persons would vote against it. Now, division called was adopted by the Conventhat same gentleman during the debate to- tion by a vote of some 63 to 32. In addiday has spoken of stump speeches. Whether tion to the authority of Mr. Kirkland, no man this was a stump speech or not, I do not having a higher reputation than he, his proposiknow. But let us look at this reason and tion was sustained by one of the ablest memfollow it out. I am opposed to submitting this bers of that Convention, Mr. Nicholas. He also, proposition to the people separately, because it sir, was in favor of extending unqualified may possibly be defeated. The gamblers suffrage to the negro race. He was also in favor and evil-disposed persons will vote against it. of submitting the question as a separate proposiNow, what is the plain English of that, Mr. tion to the people, and he sustained this property Chairman? Is it not that the people are not to qualification in the interest of the men of color. be trusted, or else they are not competent to For he said, if the vote of the people is adverse to pass upon this question. I hardly think the gen- the extension of unqualified suffrage to men of tieman would be willing to say that, or that that color, and this property qualification is not rewas what he meant, but still is not that the argu- tained, they will get nothing. But if the vote ment when reduced to plain English? Something is adverse to the men of color on the has been said also in respect to party. Now, sir, question of unqualified suffrage, this will when I came to this Convention I hoped that we be left to them. He also explains, sir, how would not hear the subject of party mentioned this property qualification came to be inserted in in it. I hoped that we would come here and dis- the Constitution of 1822. He stated that he charge our duties to the people and not to party believed that the members of the Convention only, and prepare a Constitution for submission to who adopted that Constitution had come to the the people embodying the true principles of gov- conclusion that the man of color had not sufficient emrnment. But it is said this is a party question. intelligence to exercise the right of suffrage; and If by a party question it is meant that the demo- that therefore, they proposed this qualification not crats in a body are going to vote against colored as an element essential in and of itself, or as a consuffrage, and that the republicans in a body are dition of the right of suffrage, but as the evidence going to vote for it, both parties will find of sufficient intelligence of men of color to themselves egregiously mistaken. It will be entitle them to exercise this right. He further found that many democrats will vote in remarks, that if that was all they could get, it favor of it, and I fear sir, it will be found would operate as an incentive and they that a great many Republicans will vote would be stimulated to acquire a freehold, and against it. One word more. I would like to have thus become both men of property and voters. this question submitted to the people in this form: Now, sir, that provision in this amendment is shall the colored man vote under such circum- entirely unessential to the presentation to the ~stances as the white can, or shall 'he not vote? people for adoption or rejection of the unqualiThat presents a broad question upon principle. fied right of suffrage, and if any gentleman To guard against disfranchising those colored prefers to strike it out and will submit by men who can now vote under the property test, itself the simple proposition of unqualified in case the people should vote against colored suffrage or not to the people I am content. Now, suffrage, I would insert a provision that those who sir, a few words, in relation to this question of now possess it, should continue to possess it during suffrage to the colored race. I shall not go into their natural lives and I would not even as to the question whether the colored race are inferior them require the property qualification. t have or equal to the white race. I shall not go into the an amendment which I shall offer on the first question whether they are sufficiently intelligent opportunity, or not to exercise the right of suffrage. But Mr. PAIGE-I rise sir, to explain my views on what I contend for is substantially the proposition the subject involved in this amendment. One of the gentleman from Essex [Mr. Hale], that the iword in respect to this property qualification. ruling and governing power of this State isvested r po.erty qualification of a freehold of two and deposited in the hands of the qualified v6ters 338; of this State, and that before that power, the exclusive right of suffrage, can be curtailed by admitting to its exercise other participators, the question must be submitted to such qualified voters. It is essential upon principles and essential upon the principles of our government that the qualified voters shall be consulted whether they will consent to surrender a portion of their political power by extending suffrage to men of color. Now, sir, in that respect it becomes quite important to ascertain upon what principles the right of suffrage is claimed for men of color. Some gentlemen have urged that the right is a natural right, a natural right to participate in the administration of the government. Some have contended that the man of color was created equal with the white man; and some have contended that because slavery is now abolished, the free colored men should be admitted to the right of suffrage. The gentleman from Oneida [Mr. T. W. Dwight] presented another theory, that there were five pre-requisites to entitle a man to exercise the right to vote-intelligence, integrity, independence, interest and incorporation. In examining these different grounds upon which the right of the colored man to vote is to depend, another question presents itself. If it is a natural right, a right inherent in man by birth, then all persons belonging to the human family, both male and female, have this inherent right by their birth, the gift of the Deity, the right to vote. The gentleman from Fulton [Mr. Smith] I believe did not rely upon this natural right. But he relied upon that clause in the Declaration of Independence which declares that all men are created equal; and he argued if the colored man is equal to the white man, and the white man is entitled to the right of elective franchise, so also is the colored man. Now, sir, the phrase, that all men are created equal, embraces the whole human family. It is not confined to males but it also includes females. When the word men or mankind is used as a generic term, it embraces all mankind. men and women. Under the doctrine of natural right to vote, and under the doctrine that all men are created equal, if the colored man has a right to vote, so has the woman. Under the theory of the gentleman from Oneida [Mr. T. W. Dwight] woman is also comprehended, for woman certainly is as intelligent, and as honest, and as independent, as the man of color, and she also has the two other prerequisites of the gentleman; and if men of color under these five pre-requisites are entitled to vote so is woman. But the learned gentleman from Oneida [Mr. T. W. Dwight] on the question put to him said he excluded woman because she would or might arrest the progress of society, prevent its development and subvert it. The proposition, Mr. Chairman, strikes me, with due deference to the gentleman from Oneida, as preposterous. To say that woman, the humanizer of man; woman, that gives man all the polish and refinement that he possesses; that she would arrest the progress of society! Why, I must be permitted to use the term, it is preposterous. Now, sir, upon every one of these theories, natural right; that all men are created equal; and the five pre-requisites of the gentleman ftro Oneida, woman is embraced as well as maa. If we stand upon either of these three bases, if we give the right of suffrage to the colored man, then we must give it to the woman. But, sir, my theory is a different one. There is a manifest distinction, upon the principles of the science of government, between natural rights, civil rights, and political rights. Natural rights are inherent in the man or woman by their birth. They are the gift of the Deity. Civil rights are the natural rights of a man when he enters into a political organized society, so far restricted as shall promote the general welfare of the public. They are natural rights transmuted into civil rights. To these you may add the other civil rights included in the Bill of Rights, passed by Congress —a right to sue, a right to be parties and the right to make contracts and to purchase and hold property. These are in addition to the rights given by nature, which are life, liberty and a right to hold private property and the pursuit of happiness. And what are political rights? In other terms, political libertypolitical liberty is the security which the Constitution of the civil government gives to the citizen for the protection of his civil rights. Political liberty, therefore, is the constitutional security that the citizen has to protect him in the enjoyment of his civil rights. You may say that qualified voters have political rights, as a right acquired under the Constitution to exercise the right of the elective franchise. But what else, sir? In addition to political rights, there are political privileges, political franchises; the right of suffrage is a political franchise. When the question arises, shall the right of suffrage be extended to another class of persons, or to any other particular persons than the existing voters, it is a question of the gift of a political franchise. A franchise, sir, now exclusively in the hands of the present qualified voters, the ruling and governing power. Now, sir, how do these voters get this political power? I will refer you to the model Constitution of Massachusetts, adopted in 1780. It was prepared by John Adams. He had prepared it as a model Constitution for all the Colonies. It was adopted by the Colony of Massachusetts. When the citizens of Massachusetts seceded from Great Britain and adopted -a Constitution of their own, they were in a state of transitu. And when they agreed to adopt that Constitution, that Constitution was a social compact; and a social compact, political writers declare, is the foundation of all governments. In some instances it is an express contract; in some it is implied. Now, sir, in that Constitution, the qualification of electors was defined and prescribed; and in that Constitution all the people of the Massachusetts Colony acquiesced. If it was not by a direct acquiescence in the choice of delegatee, it was by a silent acquiescence. Therefore, that Constitution conferred upon the first voters the ruling and governing power, and there it has remained ever since. How was it here in 1777? The people of the Colony of New York voted for delegates to a Convention, authorizing them to ordain and establish a Constitution. They did so, and in that Constitution they declared who should 334 be the electors of the State of New York, and prescribed their qualifications, and when that Constitution was completed and accepted, such electors became the holders and possessors of the political power of the State, and there it has continued ever since. When the Constitution of 1822 was adopted, it also prescribed who should be the electors. So in the Constitution of 1846; and therefore, the political power and the ruling power of the State is now in the qualified voters of the State. Now sir, these qualified voters have a right, having in their hands this franchise, the right of suffrage, to give it to other classes. If they choose to give it to men of color, they have a right to do so. It is a surrender in part of their exclusive governing power. If they choose to diminish the aggregate of that power by taking in other persons as participators, they have a right to do so, and if they think proper also to include and embrace women, or any part of them, they have the right to do that. Then, sir, we see the importance, we see the necessity, we see the absolute necessity, that the question of extension of unqualified suffrage to men of color, now before this Convention, should go down to the depositaries of political power for their action thereon. We are simply appointed and authorized to prepare a Constitution and present it to the qualified voters for their adoption or for their rejection. Its submission to them is essential. It is indispensable that it should go to the voters, as a separate and distinct propo.ltioL, as it involves the surrender of a portion of their political power. It strikes me, sir, from this cursory review from the beginning of natural rights, civil rights, and political rights and of the various theories of the right of suffrage, that the theory I have presented is the only true one that the principles of government and the science of government and sound sense and sound reasoning will justify. Gentlemen here have said it is an insult to the people to submit this question to them. Is it an insult to submit a question to the qualified voters whether they will surrender in part their political power by taking in associates, thereby diminishing the individual power of each one? Besides, sir, there is no other possible way to have the revised Constitution become an operative one, or to make the extension of the elective franchise, if granted, available to the men of color, except by sending the Constitution to the qualified voters for their ratification. Why should it not be sent down? It is believed that many of the individual electors are opposed to extending the right of suffrage. If the extension of this right to men of color is submitted to the voters in connection with the other provisions of the Constitution, they must either vote against provisions which they approve in order to defeat the obnoxious provision they disapprove, or they must vote for the obnoxious provision in order to carry the provisions which they approve. The very proposition seems to me, presents upon its face a conclusive argument why this should go to the electors in a separate form. We see at once that we impose upon the elector moral coercion; we compel him to vote against a proposition which he approves, or compel him to accept a proposition which he disapproves. Now, sir, I will refer the Convention to the Bill of Rights contained in the Revised Statutes which provides that all elections ought to be free. It also prohibits all devices by way of hindering or interrupting or interfering with the free exercise of the right of suffrage. Under the conjoint proposition. the election upon the subject of the extension of the right of suffrage to men of color will not be free. Physical coercion is no worse than moral coercion. Why, sir, in a court of law, the court is frequently called upon to set aside a moneyed security on the ground that it is obtained under duress. A man in imprisonment gives a bond for the purpose of acquiring his liberty; the moment he is free he goes into a court of justice and the bond is set aside, because obtained under duress. You deprive an elector opposed to any provision of the Constitution and in favor of another, by putting them together, of the freedom of election. You impose upon him moral coercion; it is no longer a free election: it is a tyrannous exercise of political power which the free institutions of our country will not tolerate, and it will be offensive to the friends of regulated liberty. Now, it seems to me that we ought not to have any difference of opinion on the subject of a separate submission. We ought to wish to have a free and unbiased vote from the qualified voters upon the propositions of this Constitution. In all probability all the other material provisions of the Constitution containing the frame of the government; the executive department, the legislative department and the judiciary, will give rise to so little difference of opinion between the delegates here that it can be reconciled. And there will be so little difference of opinion among the people. that you may submit the frame of the government so called in one proposition, and then you can can leave this other proposition to be submitted separately. As to this proposition we know there is a difference of opinion; we know it has been controverted for years; it has been voted down twice. Some gentlemen say they presume now that the qualified voters have changed their opinion on this subject. They have no right to take that for granted. We should submit this question to them and let them speak for themselves. We have no right to speak for the people of this State, and say that they are not opposed to negro suffrage, they having so recently voted against it. Besides we would be unfaithful to our duty here as representatives of our constituents, sent here to prepare a Constitution if we do not submit it to them in a form to enable them to express an opinion upon this controverted question. We cannot ordain a Constitution. We must prepare it and submit it to them, and we must submit it to them in a form upon which they can exercise the freedom of election. What do we do if we do not submit the question of negro suffrage to the voters as a separate proposition? Why, sir, we violate the most solemn obligation imposed upon us as their representatives by compelling them to vote against propositions which they approve and mi favor of propositions which they disapprove. I refer this committee to the section of the Bill of Rights which prohibits every person, by menace or otherwise, from hindering the free exercise of the right of suffrage. A conjoint submission will be a hindering of the exercise 335 of the Jree right of suffrage. It will violate litis provision of the Bill of Rights, in its spirit iL not its letter. What furcher do we do? \Vhy, sir, we assume the moral responsibility o, defeating this Constitution. In all probability this proposition of negro suffrage may ue carried. But in case it shall not be carried in the form of a conjoint proposition, and the whole instrument shall be thereby defeated, in consequence of this joint submission, what a fearful moral responsibility will this Convention have assumed! Why, slr, it is a responsibility that I lor one am not willing to assume; and we have no right to say that the Constitution will not be defeated. We, in the first place, are not only hound to submit this proposition separately in order to give our principals the right of free choice, but we are bound also to avoid that possible calamity of a defeat of the whole, by putting the propositions into one instrument. It seems to me, therefore, sir, that this is the only way in which our duty can be discharged to our constituents, and have this subject settled, as it ought to be, satisfactorily to us and them. Now, sir, if we adopt this course, there will be no material differences of opinion here, at least none which cannot be reconciled, and we shall go on with all tie other provisions of this contemplated Constitution, and complete them. A question has arisen here-suggested by the gentleman from Westchester [Mr. Greeley] that in case we include in this Constitution men of color or women, or both, they will have the right to vote upon the question of the ratification of the Constitution; Not only that suggestion is against the express terms of the Convention act, but it is against all the principles of the theory of our government which I have endeavored to present to this Convention. The idea is ot itself preposterous and cannot be entertained for a moment. Mr. COOKEI -It has been suggested, sir, by gentlemen on both sides of the house, that this question of negro suffrage has divided the political parties of the country, and although it is to be regretted that any political or party division should prevail in this body, perhaps it is wisdom to ac. cept the situation as we find it, and see whether the question derives any new aspect from that fact. The gentleman who proposed the amendment calling for a property qualification for the colored voter, justifies it on the ground, that he is opposed absolutely to negro suffrage under any circumstances, while the gentleman from Clinton [M2r. Weed] defends the resolution, or something equivalent to it, on the ground that he favors negro suffrage unrestricted. I do not allude to this circumstance for the purpose of indulging any doubt as to the sincerity of either profession, but as showing simply how intelligent men will differ in the adaptation of means to ends. Mr. HALE —I would like to ask the gentlemlan a question, inasmuch as the gentleman from Clinton [Mr. Weed] is absent. I would ask the gentleman whether he does not understand that the gentleman from Clinton [Mr. Weed] distinctly said that he was opposed to the amendment of lie gentleman from Kings [Mr. Murphy]..\ r. COOKE - I understand the gentleman from Clinton to say to-day, that he is opposed to this particular proposition, and he expressed the disposition, whenever it was in order, to submit. substitute for it, but on this subject of negro suffrage I understand him to contend for the principle of the separate submission of this question to the people, differing only in form from the pending amendment, claiming and urging to-day as he -did the other day, that he was decidedly in favor of negro suffrage without any property qualification. For the purpose of reaching the point at which I am aiming, I shall assume that the gentleman from Kings [Mr. Murphy], who proposed this amendment, represents more nearly the attitude heretofore held by the party calling itself the minority of this Convention, than the gentleman from Clinton, and the doctrines of that party as represented by the gentleman from Kings, as he has substantially stated it before the committee. is that the right to participate in the administration of government, is a franchise or privilege, and is conferred solely with reference to expediency and good government, and that the class of persons in question have no such qualifications as to render their participation desirable on the ground of expediency. The other party being in the majority in the Convention held, down to the time of assembling of this Convention, that to participate in the administration of the government, was an inherent right of citizenship, and could not be denied to any citizen, which is placing the right of suffrage on higher ground than mere expediency, and as we believe, beyond the reach of the argument of our opponents. If we degrade this right of suffrage into a mere privilege depending on expediency, we have presented for our consideration a question vastly different from that where we assert this to be an inherent right of citizenship, and that citizenship per se gives the right of the ballot. If we are only to determine whether our laws will be improved and our government made essentially better by calling to our assistance the class of persons affected by this amendment, who on this floor will undertake to demonstrate the justness of that proposition? If that be the question, in determining whether the elective franchise, as it is called, shall be extended or restricted, I tell you, sir, a proposition for depriving and excluding many of the class of citizens who now enjoy this franchise, will find many an advocate here and elsewhere throughout the country. Such was the position of parties in reference to this question until in an evil hour the gentleman from Richmond [Mr. Curtis] unmasked his battery and threatened the Convention with the nameless horrors of female suffrage, whereupon gentlemen, earnest advocates of manhood suffrage, stampeded from the ground on which alone the position was clearly defensible, and took refuge in the camp of the gentleman from Kings. The gentleman from Dutchess [Mr. Carpenter] declared that it was a fallacy to speak of the franchise as being a right, that it was a mere privilege. The gentleman from Fulton [Mr. Smith] declared that he fully agreed with the gentleman from Kings in his premises, but differed from him in his conclusions, claiming that it was perfectly expedient, as he thought, for the negroes to vote * and tle gentleman from Broome [Mr. Hand] 336 said that the gentleman from Fulton had spoken desire to call the attention of the committee to well on that subject and he fully accorded with the language of Chief Justice Taney in the celehis views, thus leaving my venerable friend brated Dred Scott case, to show what is meant from Rensselaer [Mr. M. I. Townsend]-as I by the term "people?" Who are the people believe he consents to this designation-alone in whom sovereignty resides. in his glory. I propose now, Mr. Chairman, "The words people," he says, "and citizens are without taking any precautions at this stage synonymous terms,and mean the same thing. They of the question, against the danger that gen- both describe the political body, who, accordtlemen see lowering over yonder portion of in to our Republican institutions, form the soverthis chamber, to predicate the action I shall take eignty, and who hold the power and conduct the upon this question, upon the ground that suffrage government through their representatives. They is an- inherent right of the citizen, and to put in a are what we familiarly call the sovereign people, plea of misnomer to this whole matter of elective and every citizen is one of this people, and a conf'ranchise as applied to a citizen of this common- stituent member of this sovereignty." wealth. I presume it will be pretty generally The gentleman from Fulton [Mr. Smith] conceded that our government is based upon the supposes that there is another organized idea that all sovereignty is inherent in the people. existence called "society," that somehow It is so declaredin terms in every Constitution in interposes between the citizen and the govthe Union except three or four, and in those it is eminent, and in which body sovereignty resides, clearly implied. In Alabama, Florida and Ken- and between his argument and that of the gentucky, it is stated in this language: "That ail tleman's from Broome [Mr. Hand], I believe it political power is inherent in the people, and all is made out that this society uses government free governments are founded upon their authority, for the purpose of divesting or destroying t.h and instituted for their benefit, and that, there- natural rights of the people, uses it as a sort of fore, they have at all times an inalienable and in- weapon with which to maul the people out of their defeasible right to alter, reform or abolish their rights. Society organized, withl the goverrufin:;t form of government in such manner as they may in its hands, the object of which is to (lestrov the deem expedient." In Arkansas it is stated as natural rights of a citizenfollows: "That all power is inherent in the Mr. SMITH -Will the gentlemanl allow Im to people," and, otherwise, it proceeds in the same put him a question? I should like to know language. In Kentucky it is stated as follows: whether he is now professing to state my position, "That all power is inherent in the people, and all or whether he is merely giving his own inference free governments are founded upon their authority, from the result of my argument. and instituted for their peace, safety, happiness, Mr. COOKE - I was endeavoring to gat at the security and the protection of property. For system that the gentleman was laying down, and the advancement of these ends, they have at all explaining before the committee. times an inalienable and indefeasible right to Mr. SMITH -If he is stating his inference, as alter, reform, or abolish their government, in such the result of my argument, I have nothing to say manner as they may think proper." about it; but if he is attempting to represent my I will not stop here to inquire how the people position I must beg leave to correct the gentleare to exercise the indefeasible, inalienable right man, for he misrepresents it. to alter or reform their government, unless they Mr. COOKE - The gentleman from Fulton [Mr. have the indefeasible and inalienable right to Smith] will understand I am not pretending to bring themselves in contact with the government, give his language but I am grouping his argument and to participate in some way in its adminis- with that of the gentleman from Broome [Mr. tration. Hand], trying to state the result as I understand Mr. FOLGER - Will the gentleman from Ulster it of the two arguments combined. I believe the [Mr. Cooke] allow me to ask him one question? gentleman from Fulton [Mr. Smith] was very exI would like to ask him if the people are all of plicit in stating that society made use of governone sex? ment, or that government was the agent of society, Mr. COOKE —I understand it not to be so. and the gentleman from Broome [Mr. Hand] folPerhaps my friend has different views from myself lowed on with this old notion about government on that subject. gathering from the people, or the people when Mr. FOLGER -Then, if it is an inherent right entering into the political compact surrendering in the people to take part in the government, how their rights, and I believe in the little skirmish do we shut out the female sex? they had with the gentleman from Rensselaer Mr. COOKE —I take great pleasure in stating [Mr. M. I. Townsend] they pretty much agreed to my friend that if I succeed in expressing my among themselves that the people could divest views in regard to this question, he will find his themselves of any right. question fully answered. The gentleman from Mr. SMITI-I-f the gentleman will allow me Schenectady [Mr. Paige] seems to think that this for a single moment, I am very sorry to interrupt power, particularly this political power that gentlemen in their arguments, but as the gentlethese provisions in the several Constitutions man seems to have misunderstood the position say should inhere in the people, reside in I took, I beg to state it in a single word. My that portion of the people only who find them- theory and position is this, that society is an instiselves qualified voters under the law, and that tution of God, a divine institution; that governtheir power, I suppose, is sovereign; there is ment is a necessity of it, and pre-supposes the nothing beyond or behind it, but that all power existence of society, and that society uses governis derived from them. In this connection, i ment, as a power o, instrument by which to regu 337 late the civil conduct of its members, and secure i vested. Ultimate sovereignty remains in the people their rights and their liberty; that government The Constitution of Massachusetts adopted in 1780, is an agent of society, not for the purpose of Article 5, has this provision. destroying the rights of man, but for protecting "All power residing originally in the people, and those rights, and securing the highest interests being derived from them, the several magistrates of man in his capacity as a social being, and a and officers of government, vested with authority, subject of God's moral government. whether legislative, executive or judicial, are the Mr. COOKE - And yet, somehow or other, substitutes and agents and are at all times accountthrough the instrumeltality of government or the able to them." society of which the citizen becomes a member, I think it follows that notwithstanding I certainly understood the gentleman to conclude! authority is conferred on the agents of governthat he became divested of certain rights, that ment over many of the rights of citizens, in many naturally and independent of government, apper- cases to their entire suspension, yet ultimate tained to him. But the language I have read from sovereignty remains inalienably in the citizens. these Constitutions is that citizens or members ofI |Franchise is defined to be a privilege granted the State are the sovereign people, and I submit: to a person or a number of persons by the sovif language can be made to mean anything, the ereign. My objections to calling the right of sufConstitutions from which I have read excluded frage or the right of a citizen to participate in the idea of interposing any power between the the administration of government are, First, that citizen and the people or the government. Gov- the recipients of this privilege are the sovereigns. ernminent, practically and theoretically, is noth- Sovereignty is in the citizens. It is in the ing more nor less than society organized, people, which Judge Taney says means the citizens. and when, in the organization of society into gov- Not that class of citizens who, by some statute, crnment, it is provided that sovereignty shall in- are allowed the right of suffrage, but all the here in the people, it will not do to say that the citizens who would have the right in case effect of the instrument is to take it from the of a dissolution of the government to form a people aud deposit it elsewhere. What ground new one. Second, the government agencies is there for saying that by entering into the civil who, as is said, confer this privilege, are compact the people divest themselves of their nat- not the sovereign power. Any concession by ural rights? I instance the right to the pursuit society or by the government, in regard to any of happiness which includes the right to regulate right over which it has any delegated power, is a one's own conduct, in other words, the right of mere surrender of the business of its trust or self-government. I maintain that the object of agency to the principal, and is no more a grant government is to protect and regulate these rights of privileges or powers than is the cancellation and not to destroy or divest them. And if there of a power of attorney between man and man. is any government that tends in the direction of Tlhe ballot is the form prescribed by government the destruction of these rights, rather than their for the exercise of sovereign power, which inheres protectionand regulation, and to secure the people in the citizen-the power or right the people in the enjoyment of them, that government is not already have, and the grant is of the form and not the government that is bargained for by these of the substance. True, this particular manner in Constitutions. The Declaration of Independence which the sovereign power shall be expressed. is has it, that to secure these rights, governments regulated by government, and so far as respects are instituted among men, deriving their the form, it is political, but it is not just powers from tile consent of the governed. accurate to say, it is a mere political right. SufBlackstone, from whom a great deal of the doctrine frage, or such equivalent as shall be provided by of the gentleman from Fulton [Mr. Smith], as well law, is designed to protect, and affects no less a as tile gentleman from Sclhenectady [Mr. Paige], right in the people than life, liberty and the puris drawn, expresses it in this way: 1 Blackstone suit of happiness, which are both natural and 124]. "The principle aim of society is to protect inalienable rights. I therefore claim that the individuals in the enjoyment of those absolute gentleman from Rensselaer [Mr. M. I. Townsend] rights which were vested in them by the immuta- was not so wide of the mark, in speaking of the ble laws of nature. It follows that the first and right of suffrage as a natural and inalienable right, primary end of human laws is to maintain and as those gentlemen by whom he was so roughly regulate those absolute rights of individuals." criticised were in pronouncing it a mere political The government, by consent of the governed, in right. These natural rights that inhere in the carrying out its object of protecting and regulating people, when they are committed to the hands of the natural rights of man, makes provision for a government to be regulated, protected and secured, substitution or delegation of certain powers of the are not surrendered or abandoned; and when citizen, and suppose government, for convenience the right of man to regulate his own conduct, tho or other prudential reasons, should recall from one right of citizens to govern themselves, is acknowlportion of the citizens and delegate to another, by edged to be, natural riglit, and, when they tle consent of tle governed, the right, practically come to enter into society, a government is called and for the time being, to participate in the admin- upon to regulate the exercise of those rights, istration of the government. This right, by that when they say that the manner in which act, is merely substituted, anrd the body, or those rights shall be exercised is through the the class of persons who are allowed to exercise ballot, they are not granting the right to parthe right for the purposes of government, hold ticipate ii, government. They are only affording their power only by substitution and delegation a means by which they can exercise a right that from all the citizens in whom sovereign power is resided in them before. What ground is there for 43 338 saying that this proposition must necessarily be fubmitted to the people separately? The Constitution under which we are now living allows two modes of amending and revising the Constitution. It provides in the first place that the Legislature may.pass an act submitting any proposed amendment to the people, and on its passing two successive Legislatures, if approved by the people, on a submission to them, the amendment shall be adopted, and form part of the Constitution. This contemplates a case where there is some distinct amendment that can properly be adopted and form a part of the Constitution as it had existed. There is another case where the question is to be submitted to the people at the end of every twenty years, whether a Convention shall be called to revise theConstitution,not to propose specific amendments but to cast over the whole ground and see whether the whole instrument wants revision. I think, sir, that this provision contemplates that the Convention shall be called only in a case where the whole instrument wants looking over,or a considerable portion of it,and which cannot be improved or amended in the manner provided by the first section through the Legislature, and a submission to the people. And when a Convention is voted by the people to perform this duty, it is in contemplation that the Convention shall devise and perfect an instrument as an entirety, a whole, a thing that will do for the organic law of the State. If all that was required had been the amendment of that particular section, the proposition whether or not this property qualification clause should be stricken out, it would have been far cheaper, and not only that, it would have been more direct for the Legislature to submit that question directly to the people and let them pass upon it, whether or not that clause should be stricken out of the present Constitution. It is hardly to be believed that the people, in voting this Convention intended to send delegates here to do precisely what might have been done without the aid of this Convention. Here we are met on the very first proposition that is presented with this cry of a separate submission. A submission of what? We do not know yet whether we will have anything to submit, and it begins to look as if we would never reach a vote on this question. It is not so clear to my apprehension that we are going to have this proposition to submit either conjointly or separately. But, so it is, that in reference to the first subject that is started in this Convention, day after day is spent in a discussion as to whether or not, it shall be submitted by itself. I have nothing to add to what has been said by way of argument to prove that this separate submission is not called for, but I will remind the committee of one thing that the question that was agitated more before the people, and was put more directly to the people by both political parties during the canvass which was to decide whether or not this Convention should be called at all, was this question of negro suffrage, and on striking out the section relating to color from the Constitution. I can very well conceive that perhaps the people did not understand it fully then, but I recollect it very well. I have heard it argued to them against the clling of this Convention, that the object would be to incorporate this principle of negro suffrage and to strike out the property qualification for negroes. I apprehend that of the large number who voted against the calling of this Convention, a very large majority would give as a reason for voting against it to-day,that they thought the only object of calling the Convention was to reform the Constitution with reference to this very feature. They had it before tlemn once, and if this question was not understood then, I do not know as it will, be understood when it is submitted to them hereafter. I understand very well that they may have been in some confusion as to the terms of the Constitution as it was or as it ought to be. For we find my friend from Rensselaer [1Mr. Seymour], making a slight mistake by saying that the proposition of the gentleman from Cayuga [Mr. C. C. Dwight], was to strike the word "white" out of the Constitution, for that is the language he used in his speech as it is reported. It is the fact that it is the very reverse, for the proposition of the gentleman from Cayuga is to strike the word black orrather "color from the Constitution, and that is also the proposition presented in the report of the majority of the committee. The Constitution as it is proposed to be amended either by the committee, of the gentleman from Cayuga [Mr. C. C. Dwight], has neither the word white nor black in it, and that is why we say that it is better than it was before, because it effectally ignores the whole subject, and a stranger reading the Constitution as it is proposed to be amended either by the report of the committee or by the substitute would never learn that there was a colored man in the State of New York. Now I think that although this Convention have the power, and although they may, if they choose, submit any proposition separately, yet presumptively the action of this Convention is not to be submitted separately. We are called here to present an entire Constitution, and it never could have entered into the contemplation of those who established this mode of effecting an amendment or revision of the Constitution, that in the case of a mere simple proposition standing distinct and independent, such as was contemplated in the first section, allowing amendments through the action of the Legislature, and submitting the proposition to the people, a Convention should be required. Separate amendments are proposed without a Convention, and the main object of this mode is to have a revision of the Constitution. This is a deliberative body. This Convention is not simply to write -out a proposed amendment to the Constitution and submit it to the people. We have other functions. We have got to go through the instrument and examine its various provisions, and see that there is a proper correspondence and adaptation between them, and see if when altogether it will make a proper instrument to be adopted as the organic law; and after that is all done it goes to the people. Now, suppose we start right here and declare that this question of suffrage, which it is hoped is to be the first question passed upon in this Convention, and provide that it shall be submitted separarately to the people. Then a committee reports a basis of representation. How will we know, unless we get an arranged system and put it together, how to fix a basis of represen 339 tation. It is generally supposed, I believe, that the; Mr. COOKE - I do not know that I underbasis of representation ought to be the classes to stand the gentleman exactly. It is very difficult which the qualified voters or electors of the State to understand upon what part of my argument belong. We may go on and prepare a system, and the gentleman from Broome [Mr. Hand] pre" may put together the several parts and make what dicates his question. He is naturally cautious we call a very good Constitution; bult whether it is [ himself, and sometimes, I think, his questions are good or whether it is a perfect absurdity will depend slightly obscure. upon the final question that the people have got to Mr. HAND- There is no difficulty in any decide whether they adopt the proposition that is member of the Converition understanding me. recommended in this amendment or not. And so Mr. T. W. DWIGHT -I will only occupy a with other portions of the Constitution. I was in moment in explaining a misapprehension of the hopes that my friend from St. Lawrence [Mr. gentleman from Schenectady [Mr. Paige], who Merritt] would call up his resolution to-day and spoke in regard to my general position on the get a vote upon it, which would determine right of suffrage. I will simply restate my thewhether we should not defer the whole question ory so as to make it clear, if possible, in a very as to what parts of the Constitution should be brief space. My idea in a few words is, that submitted separately until we should find there are two general grounds upon which perwhat kind of an instrument we had adopted sons may be excluded from the exercise of the and how many parts it should consist of, and then elective franchise: the first ground is that of see how we could change or modify the several personal incapacity, and the other admits their parts to answer the emergency of the people personal capacity, but denies their admission to refusing to ratify some part submitted to them. the elective franchise lest it might in some way Mr. MERRITT-If the gentleman will give tend to subvert society or to retard its progress. way one moment I will say that while' I fully In treating severally of incapacities, I divided believe that the resolution which the gentleman them into five classes, to which the gentleman from has referred to was a very proper one, and that it Schenectady [Mr. Paige] correctly referred. When represents the opinion and judgment of the major- the question was asked me by the gentleman from ity of this Convention. it ought to have been Essex [Mr. Hale] in what class I would place the adopted at an earlier stage of the session. I right of females to vote, I said that if they were thought perhaps, that it might to a certain extent to be excluded on any ground (and whether they stop this storm of words that we have had. The should be excluded I did not say) it would be gentleman seemed to have been very much exer- because their admission to the elective franchise cised on the question of the submitting of this might tend either to subvert society or retard its particular proposition pending, and has coupled progress. Not that they would willfully or it with the merits of the question to such an ex- deliberately exercise the elective franchise in such tent that it might be regarded as trenching in some a way as to retard the progress of society, but manner upon the rights of the minority as they that there might flow out of the fact that they couple it with the merits of the question pending. were admitted to the elective franchise, some such This is the reason why I thought best not to call influence upon the progress of society as would it up. On that account I propose to delay action be injurious to it, as for example it might tend to on it, at least until the suffrage question is dis- subvert the family. If we should regard the posed of. family as being at the basis of society, then the Mr. COOKE - I have already detained the admission of women to the elective franchise, if it Convention longer than I intended, and with these would subvert the family, might tend to retard or remarks I will close. submit society. That is what I meant. Mr. CASE- Mr. Chairman- Mr. BARNARD- I move that the committee Mr. HAND -I want to ask the gentleman a do now rise, report progress, and ask leave to sit question - again. Mr. T. W. DWIGHT -The gentleman from The question was put on the motion of Mr. Madison [Mr. Case] has given way for a moment. Barnard and it was declared lost. The CHAIRMAN-If the gentleman from Mr. McDONALD-I regard the vote which Madison [Mr. Case] gives way, the gentleman has been now taken by this committee is an from Broome [Mr. Hand] has the floor. intimation (and I know that is desired) that Mr. HAND -If the right to vote is a natural I should be as brief as I can in stating what my right I would ask in what sense the women of views on this subject are, and I will try and defer this country exercise their natural right. Is the to that intimation. In order to get at a right mode voting done for themta by the consent of the gov- of deciding these various questions as to what erned? If so, how express it? classes of persons should or should not vote, I Mr. COOKEI-If it is a natural right? I be- think a different rule ought to be followed from lieve the gentleman from Broome [Mr. Hand] has any stated, and I will presently state what that not yet come to vote by a natural right. My idea rule is. It seems to me that as to the various rules is that it is not altogether a political one; that that have been established here, the difvoting is the means of participating in the admin- erence between them arises rather from the istiation of the government, thus exercising the difference of definition of words used than from natural right of self-government, but that the man- any difference in fact. If the gentlemen who are ner of 'exercise of that right is altogether political. using the words "rights" and "privileges" Mr. HAND -And that when some one exer- will look into, the Dictionary, they will find by the cises it for me without my consent still it is my Dictionary one definition of "privilege" is "the right. exercise of a right," and the whole trouble, as I 340 conceive, arises from this difference. As regards voting, I think the same rule should be applied to regulate it as if applied to any other exercise of right of participation in political or governmental affairs, viz., that everybody or every class of persons have the right so to speak, to vote, or in any other way participate in governmental affairs, whenever and only when the exercise of that right will not be an injury to the cormmunity, considered collectively and as individuals. And that is the theory that I would go on. That is the theory by which I would test everything. Let us apply that test to the question now before us. The question immediately before us is, would it be an injury to the community to allow persons of color who have not two hundred and fifty dollars of real estate to vote? A large majority of the gentlemen of this Convention, I guaranty, would say not! Then why are we discussing it, when, as appears, by what has been said in these debates, that a large majority of this Conveltion fully and honestly believe that this restriction ought not to be in the Constitution? I repeat, why are we discussing this question of a separate submission of such question? Suppose the canal policy comes up here for discussion? Will gentlemen ask the committee, or will anything be heard here except on the question as to what is the right canal policy for the State? Will gentleman say that people have differences on that question which require a separate submission as to what shall be the canal policy of this State, and ask to have a separate vote at the polls upof it. Now, why not submit that separately as well as this? If the question of the judiciary comes up here, will we hear so much about what the people may think about this, or the people may think about that plan? Will any discussion be heard here except as to what will be the best judiciary plan for this State? Will any one ask that it be submitted and voted upon separately from the other articles which may be contained in the Constitution we shall frame? Now it seems to me that if gentlemen will remember what we are sent here for, and what our duties are, that we can decide this question as we ought to decide it. As the gentleman has stated, the Constitution can be only amended in two ways. It can be amended by the Legislature first passing on it, then another Legislature passing upon it, and then it must be approved by a vote of the people at the polls. If all three adopt it, it is a part of the organic law, but if either of these fail to adopt it, it is not a part of the organic law. After the people, by the first Legislature, and again by the second Legislature, have approved it, if the people at the polls say no, it is the end of it and it is not organic law, and so it is not if either of the Legislatures reject it. Why? Because the people as individuals at the polls or as represented by either Legislature have rejected it. But how is it as to ordinary law. Ordinary law is only ratified once, and then by the people in a representative capacity, and the minute it is thus ratified in that representative capacity it becomes law. It is the voice of the people of the State of New York through their representatives; but when you come to organic law, which is made, among other things, to restrict this power of pass ing ordinary law, it is regarded of so much more importance that it must be submitted to the people at least twice, and if it be by legislative action, three times, and unless the people each and every time ratify it, it is not organic law. Now, to those gentlemen who talk so much about being in favor of separate submission, I say I am in favor of separate submission here, and now. Here is the place provided for, and where the people have everything separately submitted. Why pass upon the Constitution by separate submission twice? Every proposition is separately submitted once. The gentleman from Clinton [Mr. Weed] has a chance here to vote as he pleases, and when he votes he votes or can vote, not only for himself, but for the entire constituency he represents, on each and every clause and proposition separately submitted. He or any other member, of this Convention, after this opportunity, should be the last to ask for a separate submission at the polls. But again, if it be true that in order to make organic law the people must pass upon it at least twice, why then do we not act up to that position? Why stand here arguing whether we should submit to the people a thing that the people through us do not believe in-that we, as the representatives of the people, cannot indorse? That the people through us cannot approve, and hence which cannot be approved twice by the people. Gentlemen talk about precedent. I tell them there is no such precedent, and I hope never will be. The gentleman from Schenectady [Mr. Paige] has already told you that the Convention of 1846 was in favor of retaining that proposition. The people, in 1846, through them, es delegates, were in favor of that, and they thereby ratified it in that form. It was submitted to the people at the polls and they ratified it. It was thus ratified twice by the people, and it thereby became a part of the organic law of the land. If a delegated Convention had not ratified it, it never would have become law, it never could have become law; and I have that confidence in the Convention of 1846, and I hope to have it in this Convention, that they never would pass upon and approve a proposition that they did not honestly believe in. I ask the gentleman from Clinton [Mr. Weed] if to-morrow there was an extra session of the Legislature called, and this proposition was submitted to him as a legislator to pass upon, would he pass upon it as a legislator and send the people anything he did not believe in himself? He might as well, acting as a Legislator, pass any law in that way. As I understand, an honest legislator has only one excuse for not acting according to his honest conviction, and that is that his constituents are by a large majority of a contrary opinion, and he wants to represent them, that is the only excuse I ever heard for a legislator doing a thing that he did not himself believe in, and that excuse is removed in this case, for the reason that our work has to be finally submitted to the people themselves, to be ratified or rejected by them. This, I claim, is the great reason why we cannot submit this question separately, simply because we do not believe in it and cannot approve it ourselves. And I cannot see how this Convention, no more than if it were 341 a Legislature, any more than if it were any other legislative body, can send down to the people aliy thing which they condemn and say themselves, ought not to become law. Again the gentlemen who favor separate submission state various reasons why this ought to be submitted separately. It has been called to their attention that if we submit this proposition separately, why not submit anything else separately? Why not submit the Canal question? Why not submit the Judiciary? Why not submit the Legislative? Why not submit all these and every other question separately t The last gentleman that spoke, claims that this ought to be done Now it seems to me that if that is done, if you get half a dozen or more different propositions and submit them separately, you make a vote which practically cannot be carried out and get the true expression of the people. It is easy for men to talk here, but we must transfer ourselves down to the polls and if any man will go to the polls and have there half a dozen propositions to be submitted to the people, he will find that it is not practicable, that the people are not so well versed and are not so fully concerned with regard to what is being voted upon separately, that they will pay the attention that is necessary, and any man can go to any other friend and can get him to vote in this way or that way as he may ask, as a favor, on one or two of the propositions. I therefore claim that to submit all questions to the people, is not practicable, and that I do not think is claimed by any great number here at all. But those who advocate a separate submission in this case, go on and try to give reasons why this should be submitted separately, rather than other questions. The first reason they give is that it relates to who are to be the electors, who are to compose the future body politic of the State, and therefore it should be submitted rather than other questions. Let us test it by this reason: How many propositions are there here of the same kind? We have a proposition to exclude paupers. Why not submit that? That relates to a great many more voters than this does. We have a proposition here, that after two years we shall not admit foreigners to vote within thirty days after naturalization. That relates to the right of a great many more persons to vote. Why not submit that? We have a proposition here to apply the thirty days plan immediately. They tell you that they will exclude a great many thousand voters. Why not submit that? We have a proposition here in regard to the right of suffrage of the women of this State. Why not submit that? We have a proposition here in regard to the Registry Act. Why not submit that? We have a dozen propositions relating to the elective franchise. Why not submit each and every one of them? They all relate to the same subject-matter-to who shall compose the future body politic. If, then, you submit one, why not submit all? It is easy enough to talk about submitting this alone, and if this be the only reason, that it relates to the question of elective franchise, who are to be the voters? There is no distinction; none can be shown. All these other questions are like this and should be submitted with it. But there are certain reasons why I claim this question ought not to be submitted separately, and tley relate to this question alone. Now. let gentlemen be honest and let us see whlnt is the real reason wjiy a separate admission of this question is asked. Who wants this question separately submitted to the people? Who is it? Is there any gentleman here who will pretend that the great feeling among the people is founded entirely or mostly on treason? Is there any gentleman here who does not know that the feeling among the people, so far as it is expressed, is founded rather anl: mostly upon the prejudice that we all have. and that we cannot help having, and that is the feeling as against color? Is not that the real foundation for it? I submit it to the gentleman's knowledge of the people as he finds them at home. In regard to this proposition, 1 find those who are opposed to the colored man voting, in one party as well as in another. I find them on both sides; although I find on one side an entire class, I refer to the foreign Irish voters, who almost to a man oppose it. We cannot help it. That is their opinion, but the reason for it, I think, can be got at. They have that feeling. They have a fear, somehow, of the colored man, and they think they retain some advantage over him when they deprive him of the right of voting. This is a fact, we cannot help it. What do they want? They want this simple question taken by itself where they can get a chance to express their opinion about it, where they can get a chance to exercise and carry out their feelings without any danger of interfering with anything else. This is what they want. They want, in common parlance, as most of them would say, to kick the nigger without hurting or having a chance to hurt anything else. That is what they want. All I have to say in regard to that, is this, if I am to give a chance to any person or class of persons, to express their separate opinions on any subject, I prefer to give this extra privilege to those men whose opinion, thus expressed, will be founded on judgment and on reason. If we refuse to the people of the State of New York the right to state their opinions separately upon the question of judiciary and upon the question of canals, upon which they will act with reason and sense-if we refuse to give them that privilege (and they are more entitled to have it than they are this) I cannot then consent and give these men, who follow their prejudice, this extra privilege to exercise it separately. No, sir. If we are to make any choice, or have anything to do with it, we should so decide it and determine that we shall give the extra privilege of separate submission to those who will exercise it honestly and upon sound judgment rather than give it to those who will exercise it in accordance with and actuated by their prejudice. For this reason I am not in favor of taking this question, and giving it an extra preference and submitting it by itself. There is another reason. The form that this resolution takes, I claim, is a cheat upon the people, and it is fully illustrated by what hap. pened upon this floor. The honorable gentleman from Brooklyn [Mr. Murphy] states that as a - delegate and as a man, he does not.believe that the property qualification ought to be applied, and yet as a delegate, he wants to send down to him 342 self with others as a citizen that question and he 1expectation of success, and so I take it in regard will vote for it. That is the indication. Now that to the property qualification. I take it that even is rather strange. He does not send down the if we should submit either of the two questions question that he votes upon at all. He votes there would be a large majority in favor of abolbecause he believes that the colored men as a class ishing the restrictions, but as I said before, let us ought not to vote, and because he cannot exclude be honest to ourselves. Let us, if we send down the whole class, he will exclude as many as he any question, send it down fair and square, so that can. Thus to accomplish this partial purpose lie it will be a fair test, and will not combine those votes for a principle he admits on this floor to be elements that are opposite to one another for the wrong. Let us look at it when we get it down to purpose of depriving this race of its rights, and as the people. Let us see who will vote for it and it is clear that we will not thus present the queswlho will vote against it. In the first tion in a fair form. let us not send the question in place you will have those who vote against the unfair and unjust form now proposed. But it on account of prejudice. Second, those who the great question which I wish answered, and vote against it because they honestly believe which I have not heard answered, is, as I stated the colored race ought not to vote, and in the third in the first place, that this Convention if it place you will have those men voting against it act honestly to itself, has no right to send down that honestly believe in the property qualification. to the people anything that it does not itself Such a man says " I believe the property qualifi- justify. It was never done yet. The Convencation ought to be applied as well to white and tion of 1846 did not do it. Every single Legisblack." And as I cannot vote to apply it to all believ- lature that has passed upon a question passed ing in the principle, I must apply it as I can, and upon it because they believed it to be right, and hence he will apply it to the black man. Let it be re- let us do the same. Let us not show ourselves membered that such a man claims that this Con- guilty of sending to the people what we ourselves vention should send down separately the broad do not approve, as representatives of the people. question of property qualification as applied to Mr. HAND-I move that the committee now all, and let the people pass upon it. It is an rise, report progress and ask leave to sit again. extra privilege, and you deny it to him. But The question was then put on the motion of you send down the property qualification as to Mr. Hand. and it was lost. blacks, and he says "if I cannot get this privilege Mr. SILVESTER-I had not originally intendas regards the proposition (which I believe in ed to take up the time of this committee at all applying to both the white and black), I will with respect to this subject. But as the disapply it as far as I can." And lie, therefore, cussion has taken so wide a range, I feel it my votes to exclude the black man simply on the duty to submit a few remarks to the committee, ground that he believes in property qualification. and will endeavor not to trespass on their attenIf there is any extra privilege to be shown, tion any longer than is necessary. I shall not, should it be shown to such persons for the pur- sir, undertake to discuss the question whether pose of allowing them the better opportunity of the elective franchise be a right or a privilege. depriving a weaker race of the right of the r adopt in the widest sense the doctrine of the ballot, and who have, as I claim, a natural right, Declaration of Independence, that every man is prima facie, and in fact to the ballot. Shall we entitled to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness, send down this question in such a form that it and that government rests upon the consent combines against this race these three classes of of the governed. But I also hold that to a certain men, all acting from directly opposite reasons? I extent, society possesses the power to regulate am not in favor of so presenting a question. I the manner in which that life shall be enjoyed, the believe when an issue is to be framed for any pur- extent to which that liberty shall be exercised, the pose, it should be framed fairly, so that at least the method iii which that pursuit shall be conducted weaker class shall not have combined against it a by its own members. Every individual upon his great many of the stronger class, just by the mode entrance into society, relinquishes a certain share of forming the issue, and for that reason I am not of inherent, indisputable right in order that he willing that this question should be sent down. It may preserve the residue. This is essential for has been suggested by the gentleman from New the permanent protection of rights in society; and York [Mr. Colahan]. if there is any question to go hence an eminent jurist has characterized political down, let it be a fair, open, direct question; let it liberty as no other than natural liberty, so far rebe the broad question " shall the colored man strained by human laws as is necessary for the ' vote?" Let that go down. If any question is to general advantage of the community; and hence be submitted it would be much more just, but in my opinion, it results that as the elective franwill any gentleman here send it down? chise is to be exercised in society and by the in. Will any gentleman here pretend that the people dividual as a member of society, it can be reguof the State of New York are going back, are lated by society. And this view, is substangoing to deny to this class a right which has been tiated by an opinion which was delivered in granted it from the foundation of the State. Do the Supreme Court of the United States in a they propose to send that down? We might just case which was cited by the gentleman from Alleas well send down the question whether we ghany [Mr. Champlain] a few days since with refshould return to monarchy. I take it upon the erence to a different question in which Judge question of the exclusion of the colored race, as Washington enumerates among the privileges of a race; the will of the people has been so long the citizens of the United States, the right to expressed that although we have a prejudice exercise the elective franchise as regulated by the against them no person would propose it with any laws or Constitution of the State in which it is to 343 be exercised. Thus clearly sustaining the position to be decided by them at the ballot-box. When a that whether the elective franchise be a right or a difficulty recently occurred between France and privilege as it is to be exercised in society, it can Prussia as to certain territory on the confines of be regulated by the laws and Constitution of the France, it was proposed, at one time, to submit State in which it is to be exercised. Now sir, the question to the citizens of that territory, to entertaining this view, the only practical question be decided by them in the exercise of the elective as it seems to me to be considered by the commit- franchise. The Prussian House of Lords has just tee, is this. How far is it expedient for this Con- accepted the Constitution of the North German vention, composed of delegates chosen by the Confederation, notwithstanding its provision for electors of the State of New York to universal suffrage. In Great Britain, under the remodel the organic law, to restrict or influence of reform and constant popular agitation, regulate or extend the privilege or the right the elective franchise has been constantly extended of suffrage, and what is the proper basis upon until public opinion is now rapidly advancing to which this restriction or regulation or extension that point when not only household suffrage, but shall be founded? And in my view, the proper manhood suffrage and the ballot will be demanded basis is that which was stated so lucidly by the and accorded. In the light of all this gentleman from Oneida [Mr. T. W. Dwight] on progress which is taking place in Europe, in Saturday last, and which I shall not, therefore, governments monarchial in form, and in many occupy the time of this committee with discuss- instances despotic in the extreme in practiceing. I am, therefore, decidedly opposed to the are wo here in the Empire State of New York to amendment which has been introduced by the gen- insist on retaining in the Constitution as an essentleman from Kings [Mr. Murphy]. I am opposed tial of the exercise of the greatest right of citizento it, as seeking to apply a test to one class of our ship, a qualification which is a relic and a child of citizens which it does not seek to apply to any Federalism? I am not now discussing the proother class. I am opposed to it, as seeking to priety of a qualification of any kind being under impose a property qualification upon one class of any circumstances and under any contingencies the citizens of this State, while not seeking to required of an elector. But I am opposed impose any such qualification upon any other entirely to the qualification which the genclass; and whatever qualification may be required tleman from Kings [Mr. Murphy] would seek for the exercise of the elective franchise should to impose. Of all qualifications, a pecuniary be impartial and equal in its operation upon every qualification is in many respects the most class of citizens. Our fathers laid broad and deep unreliable and unsatisfactory, and the qualifithe foundations of the government upon the cation which he proposes to place in the Congreat eternal idea of the nobility of man as man, stitution is the most unsatisfactory, as has been and it is our duty in this day to act in accordance shown by the gentleman from Oneida [Mr. T. W. with their ideas and to reduce to practice the Dwight] of any pecuniary qualification, which doctrines which they then enunciated. The day could be inserted in that instrument. It for any class legislation has passed. The time is judging an individ-l by his means and for exclusive privilege has departed. The ques- not by his mind, by wh.l he has, not by what tion as has been stated by my colleague is not he is, by his possessions and not by himwhether in this State the black man shall be per- self. I am aware that the gentleman from Kings mitted to vote. That, as has been already stated [Mr. Murphy], disclaimed the idea that he was by several other gentlemen, has been accorded to seeking to impose a property qualification, and him ever since the organization of the State. asserted that he was himself opposed to such quaiBut it is simply whether the property qualification fication. But his proposition results in nothing less is to be retained, and whether we are willing to than inserting a property qualification in the docuplace ourselves on record in this age as advocating ment which lie proposes to submit to the people for the opinion that the man who to-day is not fit to their ratification. It places it in the body of vote, whose exercise of the elective franchise in the the Constitution, and it goes forth to the people as language of the gentleman from Kings [Mr. Mur- our opinion of what is the proper qualification to phy] is morally and socially wrong and tends to be required of a certain class of electors, and then destroy the fair fabric of our democratic institu- it permits the people, if they choose to do so, to tions, to-morrow becomes possessed of all the expunge this proposition, and to amend the Concivic virtues; because through the caprice of for- stitution which we have formed and submitted to tune, or by the gift of some politician desirous of them. But, sir, I congratulate the gentleman securing his vote, he has acquired a freehold of fiom Kings [Mr. Murphy] upon the advance the value of two hundred and fifty dollars. That which lie has made since 1846, for he was a memis the single and simple question that is pre ber of that Convention, and I cannot find, in any sented. It is not a question as to his right to of the proceedings during the whole of the discusvote, but a question whether an odious property sions of that body,that his voice was ever raiedor qualification, the relic of a past age, shall be his vote ever recorded in opposition to placing in retained in the Constitution framed by the delegates that Constitution a property qualification,which has of the electors of the State of New York in 1867. always been opposed by the friends of liberal proIn Europe, a short time since, when it was pro- gress throughout the world. But he alleges that posed to unite various States of Italy under one his object is that the proposition may be submitgovernment, previous to Victor Emanuel's ascend- ted separately, and that the people of the State ing the throne of Italy, the question whether very may thus have an opportunity to decide fairly and many of those provinces would submit to his fully what their opinion is with respect to this control was sent to the citizens of those provinces, question. I do not propose at this time to enter 344 upon any discussion of the propriety of a separ-enter, and as she was giving her directions, ate submission of this or any other clause of the she was constantly met with the annoying Constitution. It has seemed to me from the very first response, "I played this character with Mrs. Butthat the whole discussion was premature, that we ler; she gave me different directions." "I played have yet nothing to submit. When this Consti- this role with Mrs. Kean, and her directions were tution has been framed in all its parts, when the entirely opposite to yours:" "I had the honor of various committees have presented their reports, appearing in this play with Miss Faucit, and she when these reports have been discussed in the directed me to enter and depart from the stage in Committee of the Whole, and when this frame- a manner different from that in which you are now work of the Constitution has been fitted together, directing me to do so." At last, irritated and then, I presume, this Convention will act in accord- galled by these resistances to her will, she at length Mace witl tlhe course adopted by the Conventions announced " her declaration of indepenof 1821 and 1846, and that a Committee of Revis- dence " as she herself terms it, and said ion will be constituted which will review all the to those actors and actresses who were refusing to the subjects which have been discussed, all the dif- obey her directions. ' When I make up my mind fere:rit amendments which have been proposed, to be simply the imitator of Mrs. Butler or Mrs. will arrange and classify them, and then the Con- Kean, or Miss Faucit, I will come to you for my vention will deliberate upon the question as to the instructions, but until then I will not." So I proper mode for the submission of that Constitu- think we may say to gentlemen, who on this floor tion. I contend, therefore, that the question of argue that we are to act in a certain manner and separate submission cannot now be properly to frame a Constitution after a certain pattern, considered, and that this whole discussion hlas simply because the Convention of 1846 did so. been premature. The question now is what "When we make up our minds to be simply the Constitution shall we frame. what clauses imitators of the Convention of 1846, then we will shall it contain. Hereafter will be the time go to that Convention for our instructions." for us to discuss how that Constitution is to The gentleman from Kings [Mr. Murphy] has be submitted, whether together or in separate also said that we should follow precedent in that parts. But, sir. what are the reasons which have matter-that we should follow precedent because it been urged for a separate submission? and what is a safe course of action so to do. I have llas been the reason urged by the gentleman from great respect for precedent; but if the gentleman Kings [Mr Murphy] for placing in the Constitu- should go further back in the history of precedent tion a property qTulification? The only reason that than the year 1846, to the records of the Conhe alleoed was that this was the course pursued vention of 1821, I think he would find that the by the Convention of 1846; and because it was pur-question of the adoption of the Constitution sued by that Convention in a Constitution which then framed was then submitted altogether and they framed in 1846, and because they submitted not separately. If I am not entirely misille proposition separately, he alleges that we, in taken, that was the course pursued in 1821. the year 1867, should be guided by their action.I yield to no one in reverence for antiquity. I I am of the opinion that we were not sent here reverence its learning, its wisdom, its works of merely to copy the example of the Convention of art, its literature, its poetry, its noble examples. 1846. However distinguished may have been But I recognize the fact that there is also a living, that Convention, however illustrious the gentle- breathing, vital present and that it is in respect men who comnposed it, however patriotic, and how- to the demands and necessities of that present ever admirably fitted their work may have proved that we are called to act. We have made great itself for the government and guidance of the advances since 1846. It was then considered State then and as it was then organized, we as a great mark of progress that there was are not to follow the course which they adopted a daily steamboat from Albany to New York unless it is adapted and fitted for the present time by which intelligence of the deliberations at The very fact that we are lhere in this hall shows the capital could be carried to the commercial that the people desire changes to be made in that metropolis. Now the proceedings of this ConvenConstitution, and are of the opinion that an instru- tion are each day transmitted by telegraph to ment suited to the wants of the age should now every part of the State as soon as its session has be framed, and that we should not follow in every been brought to a close. We have advanced marespect the Constitution of 1846. When Anna terially; we have advanced physically; we Cora Mowatt was in England, and was commenc- have advanced philanthropically. Are we to be ing her career as an actress in that country, met with the assertion that the only thing in which which resulted in such a grand success, before we have not advanced is in respect to the science she had achieved distinction in that kingdom, of government? It is hardly in accordance with she appeared one evening in the Princess' Theatre American ideas and sentiments to be guided so in London. Previous to her appearance in the exclusively by the past. Those individuals who evening, it was necessary that there should be a are so constantly referring to the past as the only rehearsal in the morning by the different members reason for a particular course of action, remind of the dramatic corps. During the rehearsal she me of an anecdote which, with the permission of attempted to exercise her right as a star actress the Convention, I will relate. An old lady had a and to direct the manner in which the rehearsal china teapot for which she had a great affection. should be conducted. She designated to the dif- It had belonged to her mother, her grandmother ferent persons who were occupying the stage, the and her great-grandmother, and she had never proper positions which they should assume, at been willing to use any other. One day the hanwhich wing they should depart andd at which die was broken off, but she still continued itsuse 345 and declared that out of no other teapot would she ever drink tea. Then what she called the " snozzle " was broken, and though her attention was called to this defect, she insisted upon continuing its use. Finally the bottom fell out, and then the question was asked of her out of what teapot she would now drink tea, and she replied: "It was my mother's teapot, my grandmother's teapot, my great grandmother's teapot, and though the handle is broken, the snozzle is gone, and the bottom has fallen out, out of no other teapot will I ever drink tea." Now, sir, to pass to another subject. The gentleman from Rensselaer [Mr. Seymour] who addressed us on Saturday last, undertook to diminish the importance of this subject, and to place the question of finance and internal commerce in this State above the question of human rights. He said that the question of the financial policy of this State, the debt of this State, the canals of this State and the internal commerce of this State, were questions vastly superior to the question of the elective franchise and of the rights of the citizen. I sir, do not so understand political economy. I consider human rights higher than questions of finance, higher than questions of policy, higher than questions of internal commerce; and that in framing a Constitution under which the State for many years is to be regulated, and under which it is to be governed,one of the greatest questions which can occupy the attention of a Convention, is the question, which is fundamental, who are to exercise the great sovereign rights of citizens, and what are the regulations and rules upon which those rights and privileges are to be exercised? There are some other remarks, sir, which were made by the gentleman from Kings [Mr. Murphy] which I would like to consider, but I will now not detain the committee to do so. But while disapproving entirely of the amendment of the gentleman from Kings [Mr. Murphy], there are several clauses in the amendment proposed by the report of the committee, which I cannot support. And first, sir, I cannot support that clause which proposes to disfranchise what it terms the paupers of the State. I agree with what is said by the committee with respect to the necessity of preserving the purity of the ballot box. I admit that the regulation of the elective franchise and the endeavoring to preserve it in its purity, is one of the great safeguards of republican institutions; and I admit the force of the arguments which have been urged by gentleman here, that it was entirely wrong that where electors in the western part of the State had conscientiously and intelligently deposited their votes in the ballot box; those intelligent and conscientious votes should be overwhelmed entirely by the votes of individuals who had not bestowed any attention upon the subject under discussion. I would, at one time, have been willing to sustain the proposition of the committee, if it might have been restricted to persoms who at the time of the election, or immediately preceding the election, were inmates of any public almshouse, but I am convinced that even that restriction could not be made to operate justly and equitably. It may fall to thle lot of the best citizen in the land, through reverses, to be placed in that unfortunate condition, Thie gentleman who addressed this 44 body a day or two since instanced an example of a citizen in his county who once occupied an honorable position in the Legislature of this State, who was well versed in the economy ot both political and social life. Yet he had been reduced by misfortune to the necessity of accepting an asylum in the almshouse. Would you disfranchise such an individual? But, sir, if you attempt to disfranchise those who are at the time actually iu the almshouse, and those who are actually public paupers in the strictest sense of the term; the restriction can easily be avoided, any prominent politician can furnish the means, or his party can furnish the means, to transport for the time being those so called paupers out of the almshouse, and thus give them the elective franchise in order that they may vote at the ensuing election. I am, therefore, decidedly opposed to that clause of the report of the committee which would seek to disfranchise what it terms the paupers, and I am also opposed to the clause which would seek to change the Constitution as it tow stands by requiring citizenship for thirty days instead of ten days as a condition for exercising the elective franchise. As an original question I might support the requirement of thirty days' citizenship previous to depositing a ballot, but as it will operate injuriously to many of those who have already declared their intention to become citizens, I, sir, cannot give that clause my support. If it is altered so as to be prospective in its character and applicable only to those who shall hereafter declare their intentions, and thus not operate injuriously upon the large class of our fellow citizens of foreign birth who have already taken the preliminary steps to become electors, then I will not oppose it; as it now stands, and as it will oparate injuriously upon foreigners who have declared their intentions to become citizens, I shall be obliged to oppose it. The proposition of the gentleman from Cayuga [Mr. C. C. Dwight], it seems to me meets many of the objections which have been urged and is entirely preferable to the amendments introduced by the committee. That substitute has the advantage of being in the present Constitution; but not simply because it is in that Constitution would I support it, but because first there is no necessity for any change in the phraseology of that section of the present Constitution, otherwise than with respect to the property qualification. And again, sir, the words of that section have received,as far as possible, judicial construction, and where we can retain any part of the instrument which has been judicially construed, and thus not open a new question for discussion, I think it advisable to do so. I would desire that there should be annexed to the substitute a more stringent qulalifclation with respect to illegal voting. I would even go so far as perhaps to follow the suggestion made in one of the daily papers this morning, that where illegal and fraudulent votes had been polled, and that fact had been made manifest, such election should be rendered null and void. Before closing my remarks, I desire for a moment to refer to an allusion made by the gentleman from Allegany [Mr. Champlain] a few day since in respect to what he termed "the better days of the republic." He described tho-" 346' as the better days in which an inhabitant of this land, of foreign descent in the prison of a foreign government had been protected by the flag of the United States, and his rights had been defended by a man-of-war belonging to the United States. I admit, that that one act of that administration, was proper and right; it was truly an American act, and one of which every American is proud. Wherever the flag of the United States floats, whether on the land or on the sea, it should protect every citizen. But I cannot agree with that gentleman that those times as a whole were the better days of the republic. If my memory serves me right those were the days when our citizens, over the length and breadth of this land, were not all equally protected; when four millions of human beings were kept in bondage; when in the halls of the Congress of the United States the doctrines of secession and disunion were openly preached; when the administration then in power, and that which succeeded it, did not make any attempt to repress those doctrines, either by force or by argument. Those were the times when a Senator of the United States was attacked in his place in the capitol, because he had dared to speak disrespectfully of the " peculiar institution," and when journals at the north could apologize for the act. I differ, sir, with the gentleman as to those being the better days of the republic. I consider these are the better days, these, in which over the length and breadth of our land the flag of the United States floats over a nation of freemen; these, when the doctrine of secession and rebellion has been defeated on the field of battle; these, when not only on foreign soil and foreign seas, the flag of the United States protects its citizens, but when it protects the citizen of the United States in South Carolina equally as well as in Massachusetts, in the city of Charleston as in the city of Boston. These I consider to be the better days of the republic, when, after a contest more terrible than any which the world has ever witnessed, the stars and bars of the rebel confederacy finally went down before the stars and stripes of the great republic. These are the better days in which, alter having passed through the terrible ordeal of the late contest, peace once more is ours, not by any disgraceful compromise with treason, not by any concession to traitors, but by the complete overthrow of the armies of the rebellion and their unconditional surrender to the authority of the United States. These, in my judgment, are the better and more glorious days of the republic. Mr. VEEDER-I move that the committee do now rise,report progress, and ask leave to sit again. The question was put on the motion of Mr. Veeder, and it was declared to be lost. The CHAIRMAN announced the question to be on the amendment of the gentleman from Kings [Mr. Murphy] to the amendment of the gentleman from Cayuga [Mr. C. C. Dwight]. The question was put on the amendment of Mr. Murphy, and the affirmative vote taken. Mr. FOLGER-I call for a division of the question. Mr. VERBLANCK — It seems to me, sir, it is dalyr fairfot the majority, we having already been here from 11 o'clock until 2. and then from 4 until 8. to press a vote on this question at the present time. Several members are sick, and many have left the Convention, and I submit whether it is a proper time to take the question. Mr. FOLGER -I rise to a point of order. T wish to know on what question the gentleman from Erie [Mr. Verplanck] is speaking. Mr. VERPLANCK-I am speaking to the magnaminity of this body if there be any such thing, and against pressing this question to vote now. I move that this Convention do now adjourn. The CHAIRMAN-The Chair would inform the gentleman, that is not a motion which can be made in Committee. Mr. VERPLANCK-Would it be improper to make the motion that the Committee rise? The CHAIRMAN-The Chair thinks it is entirely proper to make that motion. Mr. VERPLANCK-Then sir, I move that the Committee do now rise, report progress and ask leave to sit again. Mr. BICKFORD-I rise to a point of orderthe Chairman had put the question on the proposition of the gentleman from Kings [Mr. Murphy], and the affirmative was already taken. The CHAIRMAN-The Chair would inform the gentleman from Jefferson [Mr. Bickford] that the gentleman from Ontario [Mr. Folger] called for a division of the question, and since that time business has intervened, and therefore the motion of the gentleman from Erie [Mr. Verplanck] is entirely tenable. Mr. S. TOWNSEND- It has been so long since this amendment was read, and so much has been said, to which perhaps I have not been a very attentive listener, that I have not a very clear idea of the two propositions; I ask that the amendment be read. The CHAIRMAN- That is not the question now before the committee, the question now is on the motion that the committee rise. Mr. CHESEBRO —I ask the gentleman from Erie [Mr. Verplanck] to withdraw his motion for a moment. Mr. VERPLANCK-I will do so. Mr. CHESEBRO-I move, sir, that the Chairman of the Committee on the Right of Suffrage make the speech which he desires to make in closing the debate, and that upon closing his speech the gentleman of Westchester have the right to demand that the debate shall be closed. The CHAIRMAN-The Chair is of opinion that such a motion cannot be entertained in the committee. Mr. VERPLANCK —I renew the motion that the committee do now rise, report progress, and ask leave to sit again. The question was put upon the motion of Mr. Verplanck, and it was declared lost. Mr. GREELEY-I desire only to state to the gentlemen who are in favor of the amendment of the gentleman from Kings [Mr. Murphy], that they will have a full and fair opportunity for a vote, when we come to take the question upon agreeing with the report of the committee in the Convention; so that it will make no difference as to what is decided on in the committee. Mr. VERPLANCK-I had supposed that in the 347 absence of the gentleman from Kings [Mr. Murphy] who moved this amendment, and when so many others are absent, the majority would not press a vote on this question. Mr. HUTCHINS-1 rise to a point of order, I would like to know what motion is pending now? The CHAIRMAN - The Chair is of the opinion that the motion on the amendment of the gentleman from Kings [Mr. Murphy], is pending. Mr. VERPLANCK -I did not intend to discuss the question, but in the absence of the gentleman from Kings [Mr. Murphy] I desire to say a few words. The amendment proposed by that gentleman has not been fairly stated before this Committee. In what position did the gentleman from Kings find the colored population of this State when he made the amendment. He found that there was a class of colored citizens entitled to vote, and he supposed that the members of this Convention who claim to be the peculiar friends of the negro race would not consent to let the colored men who now have the privilege of voting be disfranchised. What is his amendment? His amendment is simply that it should be separately submitted to the electors whether the rest of the colored citizens should be authorized to vote. He does not ask this Convention to disfranchise those who are now entitled to vote. But the gentleman from Columbia [Mr. Silvester], and other gentlemen who have discussed this question, have claimed that the gentleman from Kings [Mr. Murphy] and the democratic party proposed to keep up the property test for colored men. No such thing is proposed. Now I do not intend to discuss the origin of society, nor how society or civil government originated. It is enough for me to know that in this State we have a civil government. It is that civil government which always determines the right of suffrage, and no other power can determine it. The civil government of this State confers the right of suffrage upon all male citizens of the age of twenty-one; it withholds it from citizens who are under twenty-one; from women and from certain colored citizens. The colored citizen is represented, and all his rights are respected and cared for, the same as the rights of minors and the rights of women; but for prudential reasons the civil government denies the right of suffrage to minors and women, and a certain class of colored men. Another class of colored rpen have this right under certain qualifications, and the question is, shall the rest of the colored men have the right to vote. I think it can hardly be supposed that the friends of the colored race in this Convention desire that they should vote unless the majority of the qualified voters shall so decide, and it occurs to me that the proper way to ascertain whether the majority of the electors of the State desire that these men should vote is, to present that question as an independent amendment not embarrassed by any other consideration. That is the fair way to settle the question, I do not intend to discuss this question, sir, but I propose simply to read what was said by distinguished men in the State of Massachusetts in 1853 upon this subject of separate submission. And before doing so, I desire to state that' in the Massachu setts Convention of 1820 each amendment proposed by that Convention was separately submitted to the people, and a majority of the provisions were adopted and became parts of the Constitution of that State. Some of the provisions were rejected; but the vote on the several amendments shows that the people were not confused as the gentleman from Westchester [Mr. Greeley] said they would be in this State if any proposition was separately submitted. They voted intelligently, because some propositions were approved and some defeated by a few hundred votes, and others by thousands of votes. In the Massachusetts Convention of 1853, Mr. Choate, then Attorney-General of the State, and one of the most eminent men in New England, upon the subject of separate submission, after stating that he had offered an amendment proposing that certain sections should be submitted separately to the people, said: "As I understood the learned Chairman [Mr. Boutwell], this morning, to suggest that he should himself favor the separate submission of everything to the individual voter, which it can be shown, may be practicably and properly done. I anticipate his support. I have paid some little attention to the details of this motion, and I count upon his co-operation." And further on he says: "It simply, fairly, and in good faith, without modifying in the least degree the substantial action of this Convention, enables every voter in Massachusetts to express his own opinion, directly upon so substantial, so distinct and important a proposition as to change the judicial tenure, uncoerced by its connection with any other subjectto the intent that every voter shall exercise his own reason and free will upon a subject distinct from every other branch of the entire subject committed to him-a proposition so reasonable, that unless it is attended with the technical difficulty indicated this morning, by the honorable Chairman of the committee, would meet with universal approbation. It should be borne in mind and it strikes me that it is a principle which should govern us that we had to perform a distinct branch of duty. We were to express, and procure to be adoptedif we could -by this Convention, our own opinions concerning amendments to the Constitution. That duty we have been engaged in arduously for ninety days, and we have done. We have conferred upon it, we have voted upon it, we have accomplished it, and we have completely and in good faith, finished that branch of our duties, the expression of our own opinions touching amendments to the Constitution. The other piece of work submitted to us, and to which we have now arrived, is exactly to enable the people to do their part of the great concurrent work, in amending the Constitution in the best practicable manner on~ their part. And I apprehend that nobody can feel any desire whatever, to give it such a direction before the people, as shall lay them under coercion. to adopt our views whether they like them or not. We should all feel, and should all co-operate to bring the matter before them in such a shape that they will express their own views exactly, without coercion from any of its connections." I desire to read a word or two further from 348 these debates. Governor Morton, one of the most retained, unless the peculiar friends of these distinguished men of that State, upon this subject men desire it. If they do not, the gentleman of separate submission said: from Kings [Mr. Murphy], and his political "By presenting these questions altogether you friends on this floor, are entirely willing to coerce the people on the one hand, or offer a bribe strike it out of the Constitution. I may say, to them on the other hand. You say to them, in political friends because the "happy family." effect: 'If you will take this bitter thing, you that occupied this hall for the first two or three shall have also the sweet thing;' or it may oper- weeks of this Convention has been broken up. ate upon them in the, way of constraint, inasmuch My friend from Rensselaer [Mr. IM. I. Townsend] as you say: 'If you do not accept this which brought that about when he claimed some days you dislike, you shall not have that which you do ago that the republican party were the disciples like.' This, I contend, is an infringement of the of Thomas Jefferson, and that the democratic rights of the people." party had strayed from his precepts. The "happy Now, I have read these extracts, because they family " was then broken up, and political parties were not manufactured for this occasion, and appeared in this Convention. I hope, Mr. Chairbecause they are the views of two distinguished man, that this committee will not take the question gentlemen of different political parties in that Con- in the absence of the gentleman from Kings. [Mr. vention, and I trust that their opinion will have Murphy.] proper weight with this Convention. The gen- Mr. VEEDER -I really do not.understand, sir, tleman from Westchester [Mr. Greeley], on the from what source has sprung the great haste first day of the assembling of this Convention, which is exhibited here to-night - this desire to proclaimed that the democratic party had deter- force this question to a vote. I recollect in my mined to vote against the Constitution we should experience when a member of the Legislature, of form, and by refusing to submit the proposition of several occasions, when transactions of a similar colored suffrage separately, he may array the Dem- character occurred and where the question inocratic party against the Constitution adopted volved was simply a political one. But, sir, I am by this Convention. Why not give the colored surprisedrace, at least a fair chance? They come to this Mr. FOLGER -I rise to a question of order. Convention and say " gentlemen give us the right The gentleman from Kings [Mr. Veeder] is not of suffrage." Will this Convention say, "we speaking to the pending question. will see about it; we will put it with other sub- The CHAIRMAN - The Chair is of the opinion jects in which the people are interested, that the point of order is well taken. and which will be presented by the Comn- Mr. VEEDER-I will endeavor to proceed in mnittee, and let the people in that form pass order. I beg the indulgence of the committee to upon the question of your suffrage? " Sir, that is be allowed to say, that I know there are other unfair to the colored people. What the colored gentlemen who desire to present their views upon people desire is to vote, and they will not be sat- this question. When the courtesy has been exisfed unless they can have the merits of their tended unanimously by the Convention to various cause presented to the people unembarrassed by gentlemen who have been heard, I cannot see any other considerations. good reason why other gentlemen should not be Mr. GREELEY -- I would like to ask the gen- allowed that privilege. Therefore, with that idea, tleman [Mr. Verplanck] a question. Would he be I move that this committee do now rise, report willing to submit the question to the judgment of progress and ask leave to sit again. the colored people of this State, and let them de- The question was then put on the motion of Mr. termine whether they would have this question Veeder, and it was declared lost. A division submitted alone or as a part of the Constitution. being called for, it was again declared lost, by a Mr. VERPLANCK- Mr. Chairman, this is not vote of 46 to 55. an age in which Constitutions are particulary rev- Mr. PAIGE - I would ask, as a matter of erenced. It is claimed that they obstruct the parliamentary law, whether an amendment can be progress of the age In answer to the gentleman moved in Convention which is not offered in from Westchester [Mr. Greeley] I say that I know Committee of the Whole? of no way in which the judgment of the colored The CHAIRMAN —The opinion of the Chair men could be ascertained as to how they would is that an amendment not offered in Committee of prefer to have their right to vote submitted to the the Whole cannot be moved in Convention. people. I know of no way of submitting any Mr. PAIGE- I am satisfied that this amendproposition which this Convention may recommend meudment, proposed by the gentleman from except the way provided by the Legislature, and Kings [Mr. Murphy] is susceptible of amendment, that is to submit the Constitution we shall form and if an amendment was desired to be proposed to those who now hold the civil government, the to it, I think it would be exceedingly unkind and qualified electors of this State. This Convention can unwise to force a vote upon it to-night. ascertain the will of the people in no other manner. Mr. FOLGER — In reply to the suggestion of I trust that this question will not be urged to a the gentleman from Schenoctady [Mr. Paige] I will vote to-night, because I am satisfied that if the say, that so far as I know, the wish of the majority gentleman from Kings [Mr. Murphy] was in his is only to take a vote on the amendment of the place, he would consent to modify his amendment gentleman from Kings [Mr. Murphy] for the puritl the manner suggested in the debate by the pose of disposing of that this night, and at a future friends of his proposition. I know from con- time to allow other amendments to be proposed. versation with that gentleman that he has Mr. GREELEY — I desire to say that from day a.wh ht tht the property qualification should be to day we ara abused by the democratic papers 349 for doing nothing, and for taking up all our time in talking - lir. WEEDER -I, rise to a point of order. The gentleman himself [Mr. Greeley] has made two-thirds of the speeches that have been made. The CHAIRMAN -The Chair, wishes to say to members that it has heretofore permitted gentlemen to suggest questions of order without itself so doing; but as a question of order has just been raised and decided in regard to one member of the committee who interrupted a gentleman without addressing the Chair, if other gentlemen undertake to violate the rules of order, the Chair will be compelled to enforce the rules of order without motion on the part of members. Mr. CONGER-It was my purpose to have addressed the committee on the general questions embraced in the original proposition and to the amendments that are pending; and I would take the floor to-night, were it not with me a question of exhaustion. If it is the purpose only, of the gentlemen who press this vote, now to get a vote upon the proposition of the gentleman from Kings [Mr. Murphy], and then as suggested by the gentleman from Ontario [Mr. Folger], to rise and report progress, I would with the assent of the majority of the committee waive for the present the duty I owe to the committee in expressing such views as I wish to express to-night until sometime to-morrow. I do not wish, sir, in the views which I shall present to this committee, to seem to take tle slightest advantage in any preliminary opposition on the question that may be taken; therefore, if it is the desire of the committee that their vote should now be taken upon the pending amendment, I will, with the consent of the committee, take the floor prior to its adjournnent, that I may state my views on the main question. I do not ask any specialindulgence. I do not know that I have a right to ask it, but as I said before, I would take the floor to-night if it were not to me a question of physical exhaustion. Mr. CHIESEBRO —I did not understand the gentleman from Rockland [Mr. Conger], to make any specific motion, but I did understand him to say that he intended to make some remarks to the committee on this question. He suggested that his physical condition incapacitated him to make any remarks to-night, and on account of that, I move that the committee do now rise, report progress and ask leave to sit again. Mr. RATHBUN —I wish to inquire of the gentleman from Rockland [Mr. Conger] if he wished to be understood, if he could have the foor to-morrow morning on the question, he would have no objection to a vote being taken tonight. Mr. CONGER - None at all, if the committee will not charge me with having failed to do my duty on the main question in advance of the present vote. The question was put on the motion of Mr. Chesebro, and it was declared lost. A division being called for, the motion was declared lost by a vote of 41 to 61. Mr. LARREMORE -I desire that the amendment may be read. The SECRETARY proceeded to read the amendment of Mr. Murphy. Mr. VEEDER-I did desire to say a few words in reference to this subject. I did also desire to say them, before the vote was taken in the Committee of the Whole. I have endeavored, thus far in the Convention, to extend every courtesy to gentlemen, and I do not ask for it personally, but I know there are other gentlemen who desire to be heard in Committee of the Whole, and because of that, I now move that the committee rise, report progress, and ask leave to sit again. Mr. RATHBUN-I rise to a point of order that the question has just been taken on the same motion made by the gentleman from Ontario [Mr. Chesebro], and there has no business intervened since, The CHAIRMAN - The point of order is well taken. Mr. VEEDER-I respectfully call the attention of the Chair to the point that since the motion was made by the gentleman from Ontario [Mr. Chesebro], the Secretary has been called upon to read the amendment of the gentleman from Kings [Mr. Murphy], and that business having intervened, in my judgment my motion is now admissible. The CHAIRMAN - The Chair is of the opinion that the point of order was well taken by the gentleman from Cayuga [Mr. Rathbun], and that it was the right of the gentleman to have the amendment read so that he could vote understandingly on the subject. The question was then put on the amendment of Mr. Murphy and it was declared lost. A division being called for it was again declared lost by a vote of 29 to 78. Mr. FOLGER-I move that the committee do now rise, report progress and ask leave to sit again. The question was put on the motion of Mr. Folger, and it was declared to be carried. Whereupon the Committee rose, and the President resumed the Chair in Convention. Mr. ALVORD, from Committee of the Whole, reported that the Committee had had under consideration the report of the Committee on the Right of Suffrage and the Qualifications to Hold Office, had made some progress therein, but not having gone through therewith, had instructed their Chairman to report that fact to the House and ask leave to sit again. The question was taken upon granting leave, and it was declared carried On motion of Mr. AXTELL, the Convention adjourned. THURSDAY, JULY 18, 1867. The Convention met pursuant to adjournment. Prayer was offered by Rev. C. D. W. BRIDGEMAN. The Journal of yesterday was read by the SECRETARY, and there being no objection thereto, it was declared approved. Mr. FRANK presented a memorial from the Genesee Baptist Association asking the incorporation into the organic law of the State a provision against allowing the State or municipal governments to appropriate funds for sectarian institutions. 350 Which was referred to the Standing Committee on the Powers and Duties of the Legislature. Mr. FOWLER presented the petition of J. K. Brownson and 38 others of Woodstock, Madison county, on the same subject. Which took a like reference. Mr. CURTIS presented the petition of E. Francis and 14 others on the same subject. Which took a like referrence. Mr. GROSS presented a petition signed' by eight hundred citizens of Rondout and twentytwo petitions from the citizens of the city of New York against a prohibitory legislation. Which was referred to the Committe on Adulterated Liquors. Mr. McDONALD -I rise to a question of privilege. I find that in certain remarks that I made on Tuesday, I am reported as saying that we had refused to make an allowance to the reporters of thirty dollars' worth of stationery, "which the Convention had a right to do." Now, Mr. President, I will not say that these words did not escape my lips. I can only say that if they did, they were without thought and were not intended. On the contrary, my opinion as a matter of fact has been that we have no power to give to the reporters that amount of stationery, and for that very reason, and no other, I stand recorded against that proposition. I further understand that that proposition is again to come before this Convention, and I shall again be compelled to vote against it for that very reason, that we have no power. If it had not been that I was thus recorded in the vote of this Convention, and may again be so recorded, I should not have arisen to trouble the Convention by making this statement. I ask, therefore, that before the debates are finally printed the report of my remarks may be amended so that it shall state that we have not the power instead of saying that we have the power. The PRESIDENT- The Chair is informed by the Stenographer that the correction has already been made. Mr. ALVORD presented the petition of Charles W. Tomlinson and twenty-nine other citizens of Syracuse, against donations of public money by the State to sectarian institutions. Which was referred to the Committee of the Powers and Duties of the Legislature. Mr. GREELEY —I am informed that by a decision of the court of appeals, an act of the Legislatute, by which in the making of drains, they could, where necessary, be extended through the adjoining lands of.other parties, has been decided to be unconstitutional. I hold in my hand the memorial of Henry C. Spaulding in favor of adopting a constitutional provision, empowering the Legislature to pass laws providing for that important-increasingly important-subject; and I ask its reference to the Committee on Industrial Interests. The memorial was referred as requested. Mr. GREELEY also presented the petition of Rev.J. H. Austin and others for a separate submission of a clause of the Constitution authorizing the Legislature to suppress the sale of intoxicating liquors. Which was referred to the Committee on Adulterated liquors. Mr. GREELEY also presented the petition of Mrs Louisa Howland and eleven other citizens of Mount Vernon, Westchester County asking suffrage for women. Which was referred to the Committee of the Whole. The PRESIDENT also presented the memorial of the Union Republican Association of the Fifteenth Assembly District of the city of New York against the donation of public moneys to sectarian institutions. Which was referred to the Committee on the Powers and Duties of the Legislature. The PRESIDENT presented a communication from the Senate Committee appointed to investigate into the management of the canals of this State. and transmitting a copy of the testimony taken by said committee. Which was referred to the Committee on Canals and the testimony ordered to be printed. Mr. SMITH gave the following notice, that he would move to amend rule 46 by adding thereto the following: "It shall be the duty of the officers of the Convention to prevent smoking upon the floor of the Assembly chamber and open spaces adjacent thereto, during the sessions of the Convention." Which was laid on the table under the rule. Mr. LAPHAM gave notice of motion to reconsider the vote by which the following rule was rejected: "The previous question shall be, 'Shall the main question be now put?' It shall be decided without debate, and if determined in the affirmative, no further debate or amendment shall be in order, and the main question shall be on the adoption of the resolution or other matter under consideration. When amendments shall be pending, the question shall be first taken on the amendments in their order. whether such amendments shall have been offered in Convention or recommended by the Committee of the Whole." Which was laid on the table, under the rule. Mr. MERRITT- By an inadvertence in engrossing one of the sections of the article submitted by the Committee on the Organization of the Legislature, the following sentence was omitted. I ask that it be added to the section: " The legislative term shall begin on the first day of January, and the Legislature shall every year assemble on the first Tuesday in January, unless a different day be appointed by law." The PRESIDENT-There being no objection, the omission in the report will be supplied as stated by the gentleman from St. Lawrence [Mr. Merritt]. Mr. MERRITT-It may be proper for me to say in view of the fact that the gentleman from Jefferson [Mr. Merwin], who as a minority of the Committee saw fit to submit an elaborate report in support of his views so far as those views differ from the report of the majority of the Committee, that that submission took the Committee by surprise. I only refer to it for the purpose of saying that the various propositions which were referred to the committee having in view the organization of the Legislature were carefully con 351 sidered, and it was thought that if the report should be made in writing, it would be too elaborate and injustice might be done to some of the propositions. We also thought we could present our views in the Committee of the Whole, and there would be no embarrassment or expression of adverse opinions affecting the different propositions that were submitted to the committee, so that the movers of these propositions could present them without any such embarrassment as might grow out of a written argument in support of the views of the committee. It was no want of respect to the gentleman who offered the various propositions, or to the propositions themselves, that they were not considered in a written report. Mr. GREELEY-I offer the following resolution to close debate on the pending subject, saying, however, that I do not wish the Convention to adopt the particular time I have named, but I only wish that the question of the time shall be settled so that members will be here to vote: Resolved, That debate in Committee of the Whole on the report of the Standing Committee on the Right of Suffrage, be closed in Committee of the Whole with this day's sitting, and in Convention at one P. M.. on Monday. Mr. DEVELIN-I yesterday, rose to propose to discuss the resolution which was offered by the gentleman from Westchester [Mr. Greeley], and the Chair ruled that the resolution need not lay over one day, inasmuch as it had reference to pending business before the Convention. The business at that time was resolutions, and had no regard to the Committee of the Whole or to the discussion of the suffrage question. In my judgment, the Chair was in error in its ruling for the reason that the suffrage question was not then pending any more than any other subject before the Convention, but the Convention was proceeding with business under the order of resolutions. I rise again and propose to debate the resolution which is now offered by the gentleman from Westchester [Mr. Greeley]. The PRESIDENT-The Chair rules in the same way, and gives as his authority the second subdivision of the 29th rule: " Resolutions giving rise to debate, except such as shall relate to the disposition of business immediately before the Convention, to the business of the day on which they may be offered, or to adjournments or recesses." These are excepted fiom the rule requiring resolutions to lie over one day for consideration. The business of this day is the report of the Committee on the Right of Suffrage. Mr. DEVELIN - There is no evidence that the report of the Committee on the Right of Suffrage is to be considered to-day. The PRESIDENT-Does the gentleman [Mr. Develn] appeal from the decision of the Chair? Mr. DEVELIN-No, I will not take any appeal. Mr. MURPHY —I do not understand entirely what is the scope of the resolution of the gentleman from Westchester [Mr. Greeley]. I have no objection to the resolution if I understand that all amendments to be proposed or offered may be offered without discussion. Mr. GREELEY -Certainly, that is the proposition. Mr. TAPPEN - I move to amend, by inserting the word "Tuesday," instead of "Monday." Mr. GREELEY - I will accept the amendment, or anything that is agreeable to the Convention, only we must close the debate. Mr. VERPLANCK- I think we would hardly be able to finish this discussion in one day's session of the Committee of the Whole. I understand that gentlemen have amendments to offer in reference to the question of suffrage, upon which they would like to occupy the floor in Committee of the Whole, which they could not do in Convention. No amendment can be offered, under the rules in Convention which had not been offered in the Committee of the Whole, and it must be obvious that if we are to have debate on any particular amendment offered, the resolution should not be adopted. Mr. GREELEY-I understand that any amendment may be offered after the close of debate, and that amendments offered in Committee of the Whole may be offered again; that the closing of debate will not foreclose the offering of any amendments or the voting, or any number that gentlemen may choose to offer. The PRESIDENT-The Chair will state, as there seems to be some misapprehension, that an amendment which shall be offered in Committee of the Whole under the rules of the Assembly can be offered in Convention; but, no amendment can be offered which has not been decided in Committee of the Whole. The contrary rule prevails in the House of Representatives. The Chair would be glad if the House should decide this matter, but in the absence of any instructions, it will adopt the Assembly practice. Mr. GREELEY-There is now on the table a resolution which I offered and which was referred to the committee to correct the rules on that subject. The Chair knows, as I know, that in the House of Representatives every amendment offered in Committee of the Whole, whether it has been adopted or rejected, may be offered again, and a vote demanded thereon in the House. That is a correct rule and a just rule, but I am afraid that it is not our rule, and hence it was that I offered the resolution weeks ago, which was referred to the Committee on Rules. The PRESIDENT - The Chair understands the rule in the House of Representatives to have a wider scope than as stated by the gentleman. Mr. SHERMAN-The rule of this Convention, as I understand it, does permit the offering of any amendment in Convention, that shall be germane to the subject, and which has been rejected in Committee of the Whole. It differs in this respect from the practice of the Assembly, and includes in substance the amendment which was proposed by the gentleman from Westchester [Mr. Greeley]. The reason that the Committee on Rules have not reported on the proposition of that gentleman, is because they believe it to be unnecessary, and that what he desires is accomplished by the rule as it now stands. Mr. CONGER -Will the Chairman of 'he Committee on Rules [Mr. Sherman] be kind enough to indicate the rule? Mr. SHERMAN - It is Chapter 9, Rule 23, as follows: 352 "When a question shall be under consideration, no motion shall be received except as herein specified and motions shall have precedence in the order stated." And then subdivision 10 is "to amend." There is no distinction in any of the rules between amendments offered in Committee of thleWhole and those not so offered; consequently the latter has no privilege over the former. The PRESIDENT- The Chair will settle the question by proposing the question to the Convention; shall the practice of the House of Representatives in relation to amendments prevail? Those who are in favor of that practice will - Mr. MURPHY-I would like the President to repeat what the rule of the House of Representatives is. The PRESIDENT-The Chair understands the practice in the House of Representatives to be to admit of the offering of amendments without regard to the fact whether the amendments have been offered in Committee of the Whole or not. Shall this practice be adopted for the government of this Convention. The question was then put on the question proposed by the Chair and it was declared carried. Mr. NELSON-I move to amend the resolution, so that it will provide that in the debate on Tuesday next, no delegate shall speak on any question more than five minutes. This will give gentlemen introducing amendments an opportunity to briefly state the object they have in view in offering the amendment. Mr. GREELEY-I accept the amendment. Mr. MERRITT-Do I understand that by the resolution, the consideration of this question in Convention is postponed until Tuesday next? The PRESIDENT -The Chair does not so understand it. The Secretary will read the resolution as amended. The SECRETARY proceeded to read the resolution as amended. Mr. CONGER-I move to lay the resolution on the table. The question was then put on the motion of Mr. Conger, and it was declared lost. Mr. ALVORD - I move to further amend the resolution by striking out all after the word "resolved" and inserting in lieu thereof the following, "that the consideration of the report of the Committee on the Right of Suffrage and the qualifications to Hold Office in Committee of j the Whole shall terminate on Tuesday next at 12 o'clock M., and that the question on the report of the Committee of the Whole shall be taken without debate." Mr. E. BROOKS - I suppose that this question, which is now under consideration, will elicit more debate than any other proposition which will be submitted to this Convention. It is more general in its character and more important in its results, and I, therefore, suggest to the mover of the resolution [Mr. Greeley] and to the Convention that some little time, beyond the day named, be given to us for the proper consideration of this subject. Many gentlemen have participated in this discussion over and over again. Some of them have made three, four and even five speeches each, while others of us, either from inability to obtain the floor or from indisposition to trespass too much upon the time of the Convention, have not spoken at all. I, therefore, suggest that some longer time be granted by the Convention for the discussion of the subject now under consideration. We have already had intimations that the previous question is to be introduced to govern our deliberations, the effort of which would be, not only to cut off all debate, but, if properly construed, as in the HIouse of Representatives, would cut off the opportunity for offering amendments. If it is in order, therefore, or if the amendment of the gentleman from Onondaga [Mr. Alvord] be voted down, I shall ask that debate, on and after to-day, be limited to speeches of from fifteen to twenty minutes each, and that, on Wednesday next, we take the question on a final vote. Mr. HUTCHINS - I am in favor of giving full latitude in this debate. And if it would accommodate the gentleman who has just taken his seat [Mr. E. Brooks], I would be willing to sit \lutil tomorrow morninig. Yesterday evening I think there'was a disposition on the part of the Convention to remain in session and listen to the remarks of any gentleman who should wish to occupy the time of the Convention. The gentleman from Richmond [Mr. E. Brooks], had he been present, and in his place, I have no doubt would have been listened to with pleasure for as long a time as lie desired. There is no disposition to stifle debate. I do not think the people feel any such disposition; and I am certainly satisfied that members of this Convention do not. But we must have some time fixed when this vote is to be taken that every gentleman may be here to record his vote. It is for that purpose that the gentleman from Onondaga [Mr. Alvord], made his motion and for thai purpose alone. I am in favor of afternoon sessions and evening sessions until every gentleman who desires to be heard on this question shall have full opportunity. By the time fixed in the motion the reports of other committees will have been submitted. The report of the Committee on the Riglt of Suffrage in the Convention of 1846 was some three weeks under consideration before it was adopted. If that is to be a guide for our action, as we have something like twenty-five reports to act upon, we certainly should have something disposed of as we go along. I think no gentleman can justly complain if a vote be taken on Tuesday next. Mr. M. I. TOWNSEND -I concur entirely with the gentleman who has just taken his seat [Mr. Hutchins] in regard to fixing the time for taking the vote for Tuesday next; but I cannot concur with the gentleman from Westchester [Mr. Greeley] in the idea that all debate on this subject should cease with this day's session. I do not believe that the exigencies of the Conventionl or the public business requires it. I believe that this is one of the most important questions that can come before this body. This clause of the Constitution is one that should be perfected after profound deliberation, and for that reason I move to strike out from the resolution of the gentleman from Westclester [Mr. Greeley] so much as limits the debate upon this question in Committee of the Whole, to this day. 353 The PRESIDENT- The Chair woul4 inf or Convenio the poor privilege of even the gentleman from Rensselaer [idr. M. I. Town- amendmrnt in Convention. send] that the motion to strike out is not in orderi The PRESIDENT - The Chair would.te as long as amendments are proposed. The that as it understands the resolUtion the gentiZian proposition must first be perfected. [Mr. Verplauck] is mistaken. Mr. RATHBUN-I apprehend that there Mr. VERPLANCK- Let me see if I am msis some misapprehension about the amend- taken. The Committee has to report, and the vote ment offered by the gentleman from Onon- of the Convention on that report is immediatly daga [Mr. Alvord]. As I understand that amend- to be taken. I ask the Secretary to read he ment, it proposes that debate may continue on amendment. this subject until twelve o'clock next Tuesday. The SECRETARY proceeded to read the I should like to hear it read. amendment. The SECRETARY proceeded to read the reso- Mr. VERPLANCK-Now, of what avail is it lution and the pending amendment of Mr. Alvord. to a member to offer an amendment, if he cannot Mr. GREELEY — I will accept that amend- debate it-cannot state the object and purposes of ment of the gentleman [Mr. Alvord]. the amendment, and if other members cannot disMr. CASSIDY —I hope the resolution will cuss the question. This rule deprives us of the not pass. I hope no resolution will pass limiting power of offering amendments in the Convention, debate on this question, except some rule which and I trust the Convention will not do so. will allow to each member of this Convention a Mr. DEVELIN-As I understand the resoluright to be heard for a limited time, and not to tion read by the Secretary, the vote is to be taken repeat his speech. Gentlemen have spoken here at twelve o'clock next Tuesday, on the report of upon this subject, presenting their views upon the Committee. The Committee will not report one single and very narrow question, and any amendments which have been offered have presented it in a very narrow, and I and rejected in the Committee of the Whole, may say party point of view, who, having and the consequence is that those who desire to expressed themselves, are now willing to close the do so cannot be put on the record on those amenddebate. I think it unjust and unfair to that large ments, because the vote is to be had on the report body who have not yet spoken on that subject, of the committee, and not on an amendment that and who have manifested no desire to express may be offered in the Convention. No amendtheir opinions and justify them before this cor- ments are possible under that resolution. I unmittee. If, therefore, we allow to every member derstand that the President and the Convention fifteen minutes for discussion on this question, and have decided that amendments may be offered in forbid him, as the rule does do, to speak again, Convention but if this resolution be passed, then we accomplish all that we desire. We will the previous decision of the Convention is overreach this question within a moderate time; ruled, and the consequenA is that no amendment we have to-day, we have to-morrow, we can be offered in the Convention. Will the Sechave Saturday if we remain here, and if each retary be kind enough to read the latter part of member is limited in the time taken by him to that resolution again? express his ideas, there will be an opportunity for The SECRETARY proceeded to read the resoall to be heard. But some members Wfho have lution as requested. been fully heard ask to cut off debate upon mat- Mr. DEVELIN -"And the question on the ters of the utmost importance connected with this report shall be taken without debate." Now, report. Here is this question of the right of practically, this Convention goes into the Commitwomen to vote I It has been refused a hearing tee of the Whole. The committee decides on a in the committee, substantially, and has never report. The Chairman of the committee reports had a hearing in this Convention. It has a right to the President of the Convention, that the Conto demand a hearing in this Convention, and when mittee of the Whole has decided upon the report, it is to be heard, to have its cause advocated and he presents it to the Convention, and then 'through representive men. The eloquent member the vote will be taken, under this resolution, On from Richmond [Mr. Curtis], is prepared for such that report, and no amendment is possible. an advocacy, and I should be sorry to cut him off Mr. ALVORD-I am inclined to believe tat from the expression of his sentiments, or to cut the gentleman from New York [Mr. Deelin] is off other delegates who desire to speak in regard mistaken. The practice has been uniform hereto to any other matter. The question of bribery in fore, and I take it that the presiding officer of this elections, of the rights of naturalized citizens, of a Convention will so rule now, that when we shih uniform registry law, are far more important than come down to twelve o'clock on Tuesday nex the question we have already discussed. the report of the committee being befre the They do not require elaborate words to be accord- Convention is amendable in every direction. ed to them, but they do require frank discussion The report may not be agreed to, or ti. and a fair hearing. committee may not be discharged, and eve:jr Mr. GREELEY -I accept the amendment of proposition can come up before the Conven the gentleman from Onondaga [Mr. Alvord]. as, under the rules of the House of Repesnt Mr. VERPLANCK — We ware told last night, tives, every amendment desired to be male iy and have been told repeatedly, that we should individual members of the Conventiton Wiit have an opportunity to discuss this proposition entertained on the com in of h report, u r in Convention. The proposition of the gentleman the present form and expression of the r from Onondaga [MAr. Alvord] now proposes to cat It is not the intention. and it never has tihe off all debate, and refuses to the members of the practice, eitherin the Houses oft:e: 45 * 354 this State, or as I understand it, in the House of Representatives, that when a time certain is fixed to take a vote, if any of the incidents surrounding that action have not been entertained in Committee of the Whole, not to entertain those propositions in the body. I trust, therefore, that, with this understanding (and if I am not mistaken, such will be the ruling of the Chair in this case, and must of necessity form a precedent), that the views of the gentleman from New York [Mr. Develin] will not be sustained. Mr. NELSON-Would we not obviate all questions that might arise by striking out the word "vote" and inserting in the place thereof, " action?" Mr. GREELEY-I understand the Convention to have just decided that every amendment before the committee, and every other amendment, may be offered, and a vote taken or demanded thereon on the coming in of the report. That, I understand to be a fixed rule of this Convention, on a decision of its President, and ratified by the Convention. I do not see that any new action is necessary. When we say we will proceed to vote thereon, I understand we will vote on every amendment that may have been offered in the Committee of the Whole or may be offered. The only point is, to close debate at that time and proceed to vote; and voting on the report of the committee is voting on every incident of that report. I do not think any change is necessary. Mr. E. BROOKS -I suppose that the resolution of my friend from Onondaga [Mr. Alvord] means just what it says, and it says that we shall come to a vote upon the report of the committee on Tuesday next at twelve o'clock, and without debate. This is another way f putting the previous question. It refuses the privilege of any amendment by any member of this Convention, and brings us directly to a vote upon the report of the committee, whatever that report may be. Now, Mr. President, to illustrate this, if any gentleman in this Convention desires to introduce an amendment pertinent to the subject under consideration, by the resolution, if it is adopted, he is denied this privilege in the Convention, and the Convention instead of being governed by the general parliamentary law, and the practice in the House of Representatives will necessarily be governed by this resolution because it is the subsequent action of the body. Sir, let me say a word more. The author of this resolution [Mr. Alvord], and my friend from Rensselaer [Mr. M. I. Townsend], who has seconded it with so much earnestness, have occupied a larger time of this body than any other members of this Convention, in the discussion of this very subject; and although, as was said by the gentleman from New York [Mr. Hutchins], I had an opportunity if I had been here last evening, to make any remarks which I might wish to make to this Convention, I wish that gentleman to remember that it is not always convenient to be sitting here seven or eight hours a day; nor is it always agreeable to members of the Convention to listen to discussion extended to that time. I think we have been making pretty rapid progress in the consideration of our business. A ge portion of my time s occupied, as gentlemen * wilth whom I am associated in the con sideration of important business in the committees of this body. The committees meet at ten o'clock in the morning and at four o'clock in the afternoon and they meet again in the evening. A large portion of time is necessarily occupied in the consideration of business much more important than the debates in which we are engaged. There will be at an early day a period in this Convention when all reports will be submitted and then I shall be willing to sit here as long as any member of the Convention, to act in the consideration of any subject that is presented. But we are engaged in considering the great question which is to come before this Convention whether the right of suffrage shall be extended to the women of this State; whether it shall be extended to the colored people of this State; how far the organic law shall affect the question of bribery; whether the paupers shall be allowed to vote or not; or whether the class of citizens who have filed their application for naturalization previous to thirty days before election in 1865 or 1866, shall enjoy the privilege of the elective franchise or not. All these are important questions which require careful consideration, and in which the people of this State are largely interested; and I submit we are not occupying too much time when we are engaged, as we have been, during only eight days, in the consideration of this question, which is the main one before this body. Mr. NELSON - I propose the following amendment, strike out the word "vote," and insert in place thereof "action," and at the end add, 'and debate by any member be limited to fifteen minutes." As I understand the resolution as it now stands, the effect of my amendment, if adopted, will be, when a report is made to the Convention by Committee of the Whole, the Convention must immediately act upon that report. Then, by the amendment I proposed, the " action" will be niy action that is within the rules of this Convention. It may be by amendment, it may be by substitute or by anything else; then debate will be limited, on any amendment or on any substitute, or in reference to any other action, to fifteen minutes to each member. Then will step in the standing rule of the Convention, that a member can speak but once, and the result will be that no member can speak but fifteen minutes, and that will cause but very little delay. Mr. DEVELIN-I offer as an amendment to the amendment of the gentleman from Dutchess [Mr. Nelson], that after the word " vote" in the report, be inserted "any amendment that may be offered thereto in the Convention." Mr. NELSON-The word "vote" is not in the resolution. It is the word "action." That covers what the gentleman [Mr. Develin] wishes. Mr. DEVELIN-I understand the gentleman to say that as he has amended the resolution it covers what I wish. The SECRETARY proceeded to read the resolution as amended. Mr. DEVELIN - That covers my idea. Mr. RATHBUi -I now move that the amendment which I have sent to the Secretary as a'substitute for the one offered by the gentleman from Dutchess [Mr. Nelson] be adopted. Mr. HATOH-I desire to make a sug. 855 gestion to the gentleman from Westchester [Mr. discussion of these sections in the Conventiou. Greeley]. As I understand the practice of the I have no objection to five or ten minutes. I cerHouse of Representatives on any question that tainly think on Tuesday next it should be limited has occupied the Committee of the Whole for to five minutes, and it would seem to me if a number of days the usual practice is when the Convention are determined to end this disthe Committee reports to the House, to limit cussion now, that the proper resolution should be the debate to five minutes; and I suggest that that the discussion in the Committee of the Whole amendment to the gentleman from Westchester. should end to-day or to-morrow, and that the The SECRETARY-Proceeded to read the vote be taken on Tuesday next, at one o'clock amendment of Mr. Rathbun, as follows: or at twelve o'clock upon the report, and proposi"Insert after the words "Committee of the tions under it, and that on Tuesday the repnarks Whole," last occurring, the words " and amend- upon any amendment should be limited to five ments proposed thereto." minutes. This would bring the whole matter up, Mr. SILVESTER-I recognize the fact that and give us an opportunity to examine some of the this is one of the most important questions that other sections, propose amendments to them, and will come before this body, and not wishing that briefly state the reason of those amendments. any gentleman should be deprived of the right to Mr. HUTCHINS-When that occasion arises, express his views, I offer the following amend- when the contingency has happened, the Convenment and I offer it as a substitute. tion can take care of it. The majority vote fixes The PRESIDENT-As two amendments are the time for taking the vote; the majority can already pending, the Chair will inform the gentle- allow us to listen to the eloquence of the gentleman from Columbia [Mr. Silvester] that another man from Clinton [Mr. Weed], if he has not tnendment is not admissible. been able to offer his amendment to some Mr. WEED-I have, personally, no serious one of the proposed sections, and I shall objection to lte first proposition of the gentleman most willingly vote for it. It now requires from Westchester [Mr. Greeley], as it was a majority vote to fix the time, and if any gentleamended prior to his accepting the amendment man wishes at the time so fixed to be heard, offered by the gentleman from Onondaga [Mr. Al- and the -Convention deems it important, he vord]; but it seems to me if the Convention will shall be heard; or if the question requires disthink of it a moment that to adopt the resolution cussion, a majority vote, I have no doubt, will be of the gentleman from Onondaga [Mr. Alvord] given to allow it. The gentleman from Richmond will be an error for these reasons. In [Mr. E. Brooks] says this proposition is, in effect, the natural course of events, in the Com- the previous question. When we had before the mittee of the Whole the discussion will prob- Convention, the question whether the rule proably be almost entirely, if not entirely, taken up viding for the previous question, as reported by upon amendments to the first section of the arti- the committee, should be struck out or not, I cle proposed by the Committee upon Suffrage. I voted for retaining it. The gentleman fiom doubt if we get a direct vote upon that subject Richmond [Mr. E. Brooks] voted against it. while in Committee of the Whole. What then I am inclined to think that he was right, will be the result? No discussion of any kind and that I was wrong. But it was stated at upon the other six sections of the report can be that time, that the way we could reach, in had in Committee of the Whole, because those substance, the previous question was by fixsections are not under discussion in the Committee, ing a definite time when the vote could be and amendments to them are not pertinent, taken upon the propositions before the Convenand discussion upon them not pertinent. Then tion. We propose to do that now. If the time the report is made to the house on Tuesday limited is not long enough, then, next Tuesday, next in pursuance of this resolution. That report when the vote is to be taken, we can by vote is that they have made progress and ask leave to extend it; but I desire to see the time fixed now, sit again. Upon that a motion is made to disa- and if the contingency arises, for any reason gree and a vote is taken upon the original proposi- whatever, that at the time fixed to take the vote tion. Perhaps the amendment of the gentleman it shall not be deemed proper to do so, I would from Cayuga [Mr. C. C. Dwight] and other gentle- most heartily vote for further postponement. men to the first section can be taken understand- Mr. DEVELIN-A s I understand parliamentary ingly, at that time: hut any other amendment to law, if we pass this resolution it stands upon our any other of the six sections of this article cannot records that the vote is to be taken at two o'clock be made under the rule as proposed, and no dis- on Tuesday, and no majority can change that resocussion can be had upon them though the lution. In order to change it, a motion must be other five sections are important. It seems made to reconsider, and that motion must lie to me, therefore, that if this debate is to over for a day, and thus of course the attempt to be stopped in this way, the first proposition extend debate is defeated. of the gentleman from Westchester [Mr. Gree- Mr. TAPPEN offered the following resolution': ley] was the proper one, that debate. in the Com- Resolved, That debate in Committee of the mittee of the Whole be ended to-day, or on some- Whole on the report of the Committee on the tithe to be fixed; that then we should have time Right of Suffrage, be closed on Tuesday next, and to propose amendments to the other sections of that the Convention will take action thereon and the report, when the whole report would be under upon any amendments on Wednesday, after th consideration in Convention; and any amendment reading of the journal.- Debate to be limited to to any portion of them would be in order, and ten minutes on Tuesday and Wednesday upon the that some limited time should be given, for the subject then pending. 386 i-:-.. The PRESIDENT -The Chair is of opinion Ia the 'resolution iitnot now in order there being already two amendments pending. Mr. TAPPEN —There are conflicting views of members in respect to the time and the day upon *hioh to close the debate on this subject: but it ebems to be the sentiment of the majority of the Convention that some specific time ought to be named, and judging from the sentiments expressed upon this subject I gather that early in the ensuing week is the time the majority would like the best, and I propose by this resolution to adopt the features Of the various propositions offered and to close this debate on Tuesday next, and on Wednesday, witllout fixing any hour upon either day at which the Convention shall adjourn, that we take the final vote on all the propositions in that report. I think this resolution will commend itself to the judgment of all the members of the Convention. Mr. CREELEY —I will accept that amendment, thlough I think it is totally unnecessary. The PRESIDENT announced the question to be upon the amendment offered by Mr. Nelson. Mr. NELSON - I propose to change the time mentioned in that amendment from fifteen minutes t ten minutes. No objection being made the amendment was so modified. Mr. HATCH-I offer, sir, an amendtnent to the amendment to change the time to five minutes; which is the usual time in the House of Representatives. Mr. SMITH-This Convention, as I understand it, have already decided that any amendment may be offered in Convention, whether it has been previously offered in the Committee of the Whole or not. But as I understand this amendment it proposes to cut off debate in the Convention. Virtually it destroys and nullifies the right which the Convention have voted to retain, because it is well known that the change of a single word, may entirely change the whole scope and effect of a provision, and when It is read by the Secretary in the hurry of buiness,,it is impossible for gentlemen to tell the effect of an amendment thus offered. Therefore, if there be no privilege left to make any explanation at the time, we virtually vote to cut off ~al debate and permit ourselves only to vote on the original proposition. Mr. GREELEY- I understand the gentleman Irota Dutchess [Mr. Nelson] is willing to accept the amendment of the gentleman from Erie [Mr. [atch] to limit the debate to five minutes, and I am willing to accept the amendment as thus atended. Mr. McDONALD offered the following amendment. Add at end of resolution, "Provided further that on and after Friday next no member shall occupy more than fifteen minutes on any one questin, unless by a vote of two-thirds. of the members present, such member be allowed further time." Mr. ALVORD-I rise to a question of order, that this proposition of the gentleman from Ontrio [Mr. McDonald], is nol germane to this subiet, l does not come under the rule we have f e inregar to tle order of business. The PRESTDEXT-The Chair is of opinion that the point of order 11 taken. Mr. TAPPEN - I had the honor a few moineluts ago to offer a resolution which seemed to me to meet with some favor from. the Conven. vention; but at the time the Chair decided that I it was not in order, because several amendments were pending. I understand that since then these amendments have been disposed of, and I would ask if my resolution is now in order. The PRESIDENT - The amendment is now in order. Mr. McDONALD - Although it may be not strictly in order, I would like to ask a question"if it is in order to make a motion with regard to the debate on Tuesday next, why is it not in order to make a -motion with regard to debate on Friday next. The PRESIDENT - The Chair does not consider it his province to inform the gentleman [Mr. 3,kDonald] on points which are not distinctly before the Convention. Af r. TILDEN-I have no desire to protract the discussion upon the question of suffrage beyond a reasonable limit,. and much beyond the limit to which gentleman have already gone; and the best testimony I can give on that subject is, that I have taken none of tile time of the committee in that discussion. It has been somewhat prolonged on a single question and one question only-the question of the suffrage of colored persons. I understand there are gentlemen here, and one of them a man of distinguished eloquence, who proposes to discuss the question of' the extension of suffrage to females. I do not myself intend to take any part in that discussion, certainly not beyond a mere expression ofopinion that may govern my vote. But, sir, in framing the fundamental law of the greatest State in the Union, of a state larger numerically than were the whole UDited States when the Conven. tion o f 1787 sat, in regard to what is fundamental in government. that is if anything be fundamental the question of suffrage, and who shall constitute the electoral body; I am desirous that there shall be every reasonable opportunity to make practical amendments in committee that the case requires. I desire myself, sir, to propose several amendments in the Convention when the ayes and noes can be taken, and when, doubtless, there will be a fuller attendance of members. I think it entirely impracticable to state the reasons for an amendment within five or ten minutes, or always within firteen. It may be very well to draw these discussions in;'the Committee of the Whole to a close, or it ma)r be very well to limit, if gentlemen desire it, the length of speeches made upon the general subject, but I certainly think it would be improvident and unwise to say that no man shall occupy over five minutes Ior ten minutes'in explaining amendments which are to be voted upon by this Convention. Sir, the analogy of the House of Representatives does not hold good here, Those are mere amendments, of detail and form. In several respects, I think this report needs amending-and in matr al respects. I think, on the whole, without having been intended to be such, it is a disfranchising report, and T fhin'Ir fhat -if thww,MA CMA iQ A041,11TACId fl,,M The PRESIDENT-The Chair is of opinion that the point of order is well taken. Mr. TAPPEN - I had the honor a few moments ago to offer a resolution which seemed to me to meet with some favor from' the Conven. vention; but at the time the Chair decided that it was not in order, because several amendments were pending. I understand that since then these amendments have been disposed of, and I would ask if my resolution is now in order. The PRESIDENT - The amendment is now in order. Mr. McDONALD -Although it may be not strictly in order, I would like to ask a question-if it is in order to make a motion with regard to the debate on Tuesday next, why is it not in order to make a.motion with regard to debate on Friday next. The PRESIDENT - The Chair does not consider it his province to inform the gentleman [Mr. fMcDonald] on points which are not distinctly before the Convention. Mr. TILDEN-I have no desire to protract the discussion upon the question of suffrage beyond a reasonable limit, and much beyond the limit to which gentleman have already gone; and the best testimony I can give on that subject is, that I have taken none of the time of the committee in that discussion. It has been somewhat prolonged on a single question and one question only-the question of the suffrage of colored persons. I understand there are gentlemen here, and one of them a man of distinguished eloquence, who proposes to discuss the question of the extension of suffrage to females. I do not myself intend to take any part in that discussion, certainly not beyond a mere expression of opinion that may govern my vote. But, sir, in framing the fundamental law of the greatest State in the Union, of a state larger numerically than were the whole United States when the Convention of 1787 sat, in regard to what is fundamental in government, that is if anything be fundamental, the question of suffrage, and who shall constitute the electoral body; I am desirous that there shall be every reasonable opportunity to make practical amendments in committee that the case requires. I desire myself, sir, to propose several amendments in the Convention when the ayes and noes can be taken, and when, doubtless, there will be a fuller attendance of members. I think it entirely impracticable to state the reasons for an amendment within five or ten minutes, or always within fifteen. It may be very well to draw these discussions in the Committee of the Whole to a close, or it may be very well to limit, if gentlemen desire it, the length of speeches made upon the general subject, but I certainly think it would be improvident and unwise to say that no man shall occupy over five minutes or ten minutes in explaining amendments which are to be voted upon by this Convention. Sir, the analogy of the House of Representatives does not hold good here. Those are mere amendments, of detail and form. In several respects, I think this report needs amending-and in material respects. I think, on the whole, without having been intended to be such, it is a disfranchising report, and I think that if the whole time is occupied in Com 357 mittee of the Whole in the discussion of the question now pending and we are forced upon the final action, we ought to have, certainly, longer 'than five or ten minutes in which to propose amendments that are to take effect and that are to be approved, and which are to constitute the real business we are to do in this body. I think, perhaps, from having allowed too large a latitude, there is danger of our rushing into the other extreme, and tying this body up in such a way that we cannot wisely and discreetly do the actual business part of the duty we are undertaking. I therefore shall vote against these limitations in the Convention, although, perhaps, a larger limitation I would agree to! Mr. HUTCHINS —One word in reply to the gentleman who has just spoken [Mr' Tilden]. The only argument, as I understand, that he uses in favor of extending the time is this. That he desires in Convention to offer amendments. Now I ask the gentleman why he will not offer these amendments in Committee of the Whole, when he can talk as long as he chooses, and then he will not be precluded when we go into Convention from offering amendments. Mr. TILDEN- I will answer my friend and colleague. I stated the nature of the limitation on both to show that there might be no power to do precisely what the gentleman proposes. Mr. HUTCHINS - I understood the gentleman to say that he had his amendments already prepared. Mr. TILDEN-Not at all. I said nothing of the kind. Mr. KERNAN-We have sat in Committee of the Whole for nearly twb weeks, and it has not for one moment been in order to offer amendments, though it may be so at the end of the session. Mr. TILDEN-Yes sir, it has been out of order all the time. I intend to offer my amendments in the committee, but I may not have an opportunity under these rules. Mr. HUTCHINS-Then I would be in favor of a session, even if we have a continuous one of forty-eight hours, long enough to give the gentleman an opportunity. If we do not do something of this kind we shall never be able to accomplish this business. Look at the unreasonableness of the gentlemen who ask for a further extension of time. If I understand the argument of those who oppose this proposition, gentlemen say that they consider this right of suffrage as a sort of secondary thing to be submitted separately to the people, and of very litle consequence. My friend from Rensselaer [Mr. Seymour] on Saturday made a most able speech here, showing how much more important many other questions were, that will come before this Convention than the one we are now discussing; but now, they think it is the great question of all others that ought to be discussed. I agree with the gentleman that it is, and I am in favor of giving them full time and fill latitude, and of giving every gentleman on this floor full opportunity to speak. But I think if we give them until next Tuesday or Wednesday, and have afternoon sessions if necessary, and evening sessions of sufficient length until all the gentlemen can beheard, it will be sufficioet, and although i; is the greaet queftion and the most momentous one before the Convention, still there are other questions of importance which ought to be fully discussed and heard, and it is for that reason I am in favor of the resolution. Mr. CONGER - I suppose in the first instanc, whatever the action of the Convention may be on any proposition now submitted, that when the vote is taken and the action determined, that the Convention binds itself by a special rule, which it cannot revoke in any contingency unless the majority who enacted the rule shall see fit to grant a reconsideration; so that for all practical purposes, the vote which is to be taken now, is just as final as if Tuesday next had arrived. If then, the majority who are presentwish to have this debate closed, I have no objection provided there is ample opportunity afforded to every gentleman whq wishes either to propose amendments or to support amendments, to give suitable expression to his views.. The gentlemen who have proposed these amendments should be sufficiently explicit in giving us to understand what sort of sessions they propose. Because it is very clear, if a vote is taken on this proposition affirmatively, and if to-morrow we should adjourn over until Monday evening at seven o'clock, it would shut out all further consideration of the questiot in Committee of the Whole. I do not suppose that any gentleman here, who is ready to limit the debate to a day certain, would wish to take so ungenerous an advantage. But it is due to justice and fairness, by every member of this Convention to himself, that in fixing such a rule it should be so clearly and distinctly stated that there can be no possible advantage taken in any event. In order that there may be no mistake about it I offer the following amendment. Resolved, That the consideration of the report of the Committee on the Right of Suffrage, and the Qualifications to Hold Office in the Committee of the Whole, be continued in regular session, and at recesses to be held every day, without adjournment of the Convention beyond one day, except from Saturday to Monday next, the debate to be closed in Committee of the Whole on Tuesday next at 12 x., and that action then be had upon the report of the committee and upon all amendments proposed, and to be proposed thereto. Mr. CHAMPLAIN-I rise with the view simply of making an inquiry. It has been stated here by the gentleman from New York [Mr. Hutchins], and also by the gentleman from Rockland [Mr. Conger], that this order of business as established by the resolutions can be changed by a majorit vote. Rule 18 reads as follows: "Any particular report or other matter on the general orders may be made a special order from any particular day or from day to day, with the assent of two-thirds of the members voting; and no special order shall be postponed or rescinded except by a similar vote." I have always understood, although i am not very familiar with parliamentary law, that when an hour or day was fixed for taking a vote on a pending proposition it superseded all other business and was a special order. If so, un:r this rule it would require a two-thirds vote eter to establish or rescind it. - Mr. A. J. PARK E3R -I do not believe we j at this time to decie wen these debati a h t 35s held; I believe we shall gain time and get along I spend a week or two, or a month or two at Sarabetter with the business of the Convention by toga if I had nothing else to do and plenty of letting this lie over to another day; I therefore money to pay expenses, but I do not believe move that this resolution lie upon the table. that it is either proper or right for me to The question was then put upon the motion of convert a public office and a public duty Mr. A. J. Parker. and declared to be carried. into a matter of pleasure and enjoyment, as Mr. DEVELIN moved to take up the motion to though I had been elected for that instead of labor. reconsider the vote by which the resolution Now, sir, if gentlemen were aware of the opinion appointing a committee to consider the expedi- of the people of the country in regard to this propency of adjourning to Saratoga or New York was osition, and if they knew of the result to be proindefinitely postponed. duced, the effect upon any Constitution which The SECRETARY proceeded to read the reso- they might adopt, they would hardly make the lution, as follows: proposition to go there, and I am satisfied that no Resolved, That a committee of one from each proposition of that kind can be carried in this judicial district be appointed by the Chair to Convention. Why, sir, it would condemn and inquire and report upon the expediency of defeat any Constitution that could be made in this adjourning this Convention to Saratoga or the Convention. The very fact that we deserted the city of New York. Capitol and ran away upon a visiting and summbr Mr. OPDYKE- It seems to me that the reso- excursion, would be in the public judgment of the tion is a very proper one. It is known that the people in the country-I can't say what it would framers of the law under which we assemble, be in the cities-but in the country it would be with a proper consideration for the health and that we had ceased to be a delegated Convention for comfort of the members of this Convention, gave the purpose of making.a Constitution and had them the option after their first organization, to been converted into an entirely different body. select the place of holding their sessions. It is Now, sir, I did not rise to debate the question or known I presume, to every member of the Con- say a word about it. I rose for the purpose of vention that the proprietors of the Union Hotel at making a motion, and that motion is to lay this Saratoga tendered us the free use of a building whole subject upon the table, and upon that I suitable for our purposes and properly fitted up demand the ayes and noes. for our accommodation. It seems to me that it is A sufficient number seconding the call, the ayes due to the liberality of that offer that this commit- and noes were ordered. tee be at least appointed to make inquiry and re- The question was then put upon the motion of port to this Convention, and if there are found to Mr. Rathbun, and the Secretary proceeded with be no objections to making the change I am free the call, and upon Mr. Reynolds' name being to say that I for one will be in favor of making calledit. There is no doubt that Saratoga is Mr. REYNOLDS-Is it in order for me to excooler and more healthful than this city, plain my vote? or any other at which we could meet: The PRESIDENT-The Chair is of the opinion they are supplied there with excellent that the gentleman can only ask to be excused water for general use, and their mineral springs and can give his reasons for it. Does the gentleare fountains of health of which we may all par- man ask to be excused? take. I believe that the physical and mental Mr. REYNOLDS-I ask to be-excused from stamina of the members of this Convention would voting. When this question was up before, I be so far increased by the change that we should voted in favor of laying the resolution on the be able to hold two sessions with less exhaustion table. It was, as I understood it, for the appointthan we can here hold one. But the question of ment of a committee to visit Saratoga to inquire making the change is not now before the Con- into the expediency of adjourning the Convention vention; it is a preliminary question of inquiry, to that place; the resolution was then postponed, and a vote in favor of the committee will not be and it subsequently came to my knowledge that a vote on the subject to which it refers. I trust the gentleman who moved the resolution had some from the considerations which I have presented feeling upon the refusal of the Convention to and from courtesy to the liberality of the offer appoint a committee. After some conversation that has been made, that the committee will at with him, I felt that perhaps he might be right, least be appointed and permitted to make the and I ought to have voted in favor of granting inquiry. him a committee, though I am opposed to the Mr. RATHBUTN- I hope this vote will not be proposition for going to Saratoga, and I told him reconsidered. It seems to me that we could if thevotewas reconsidered, I would vote in favor hardly be guilty of a greater impropriety than to of giving him the committee, so that I vote "no" take up and consider it and finally to be led away upon the motion now, though I should vote on this excursion up to Saratoga. We were not against the proposition to go to Saratoga if it elected, if I remember right, to visit summer resorts should come up. or places of amusement or pleasure; we were The PRESIDENT-The Chair is of the opinion elected for the purpose of performing a duty, and that the gentleman cannot now vote, without the the ordinary and the regular place for the perfornm consent of the Convention. If there is no objecance of that duty is where the conveniences re- tion the gentleman can vote. sulting from the library, the departments, the Objection being made the Secretary proceeded pubricprinting, and the center of travel calls the with the call. onvention and the legislative bodies of the Mr. HATCH —I do not undertsand that the. I hould like very much, individually, to gentleian from Monroe [Mr. Reynolds) has been 359 excused, if not, he is entitled to vote now unless the Convention shall excuse him. The PRESIDENT-The Chair holds that the gentleman cannot withdraw his request, without the consent of the Convention. Mr. HATCH - The Convention has not passed upon the question of excusing him, perhaps the Convention are opposed to excusing him. The PRESIDENT - The Chair is of the opinion, that the gentleman cannot vote without the consent of the Convention. Mr. DEVELIN —As I understand it sir, the gentleman from Monroe [Mr. Reynolds], requested that he should be excused from voting, but the Convention has not passed upon that request at all; and ho is entitled to vote or else the Convention must refuse him the privilege of voting. The PRESIDENT —The Chair will put the question upon excusing the gentleman, to the Convention. the question was then put on excusing Mr. Reynolds and it was declared to be not granted. The SECRETARY proceed to finish the call, and the, motion to lay on the table was declared to be lost by the following vote: Ayes-Messrs. A. F. Allen, C. L. Allen, N. M. Allen, Andrews, Axtell, Barker, Barnard, Bell, Bickford, E. A. Brown, Carpenter, Case, Cassidy, Church, Cooke, Corbett, Corning, Curtis, Duganne, C. C. Dwight, T. W. Dwight, Ferry, Fowler, Francis, Fuller, Gould, Greeley, Gross, Hadley, Hale, Hammond, Hand, Harris, Hitchcock, Houston, Hutchins, Kernan, Kinney, Krum, Lapham, Law, Ludington, Merrill, Merritt, Merwm, Morris, Murphy, Paige, A. J. Parker, C. E. Parker, President, Rathbun, Root, Roy, Rumsey, L. W. Russell, Schell, Schoonmaker, Seaver, Silvester, Smith, Strong, Tilden, M. I. Townsend, Van Campen, Wales, Wickham-67. Noes -Messrs. Alvord, Baker, Ballard, Barto, Beadle, Beckwith, E. Brooks, E. P. Brooks, W. C. Brown, Burrill, Champlain, Cheritree, Chesebro, Clinton, Cochran, Daly, Develin, Eddy, Endress, Field, Flagler, Folger, Frank, Fullerton, Goodrich, Grant, Graves, Hardenburgh, Hatch, Hitchman, Huntington, Jarvis, Ketcham, Landon, Larremore, A. Lawrence, M. H. Lawrence, Livingston, Lowrey, Magee, Masten, Mattice, McDonald, Monell, More, Nelson, Opdyke, Pond, Prindle, Prosser, Reynolds, Robertson, Rogers, Rolfe, A. D. Russell, Seymour, Sheldon, Sherman, Stratton, Tappen, S. Townsend, Tucker, Van Cott, Veeder, Verplanck, Wakeman, Weed, Williams, Young -69. The PRESIDENT announced the question to be on the motion to reconsider the vote by which the original resolution was postponed. Mr. MERRITT -I do not desire to make any extended remarks, but as I had the honor of making the motion for indefinite postponement, I desire to state, that it was not with any purpose of showing any discourtesy to the gentleman who moved the resolution. It is very clear to me that this Convention, may as well understand now, and determine whether they wish to change the seat of this Convention from Albany to Saratoga. We do not need a committee to inform us of the facilities at Saratoga for holding sessions, or of the convenience which we shall experience if we change th'elocation of the Convention to Saratoga, for by the newspapers, and by circulars we lavi been informed of the facilities that exist at that place. Why then appoidt this committee? Mr. DEVELIN-I rise to a point of order, that on a. motion to reconsider, the gentleman canlWt discuss the merits of the res(?lution. The PRESIDENT - The gentleman wifl proceed in order. Mr. MERRITT -I say I am riot willing, in the case of people who maybe interested in this change, in a pecuniary way or otherwise, that they should have the advantage of d report from a committee of this bodyMr. DEVELIN - I rise to a point of order. The gentleman is pursuing the same course. The PRESIDENT-The Chair understands the gentleman to be in order. Mr. MERRITT -1 think that in-voting to raise this committee, we are voting practically upon the resolution itself, and there can be no courtesyor discourtesy about it. This has been considered and discussed somewhat in the early part of the session, and we were told that we were going to suffer great inconvenience by staying here, that our health would be endangered, but that prophecy has not been fulfilled yet, and we have suffered no inconvenience whatever from the temperature. It has undoubtedly been observed by those who have taken-an interest in the degrees of temperature during the heated term, that there is no material difference between Albanyj Saratoga, Ogdensburgh and Montreal, so that in that respect it will make but very little difference. It is possible thero may be some surroundings about Saratoga which may make it more pleasant and agreeable for gentleman of the Convention, but1 am clearly of the opinion, if we change from Albany -to Saratoga, that the inconvenience of getting there, attending sessions and procuring the proper printing, and the difficulty of getting information we may seek from the departments at Albany, and the State library, will overbalance any, benefit which may be derived from the change. I have heard no complaint from anygentlemen on this ffoor, so far, of any inconvenience; we are au well located here, and I think it is hardly worth while to go to Saratoga. I do not suppose that any considerable number would even think of, going tothe city of New York, for, as I understand, it. even a majority of the delegates, from New York city are desirou's to go to Saratoga and not to New York city, and I do not suppose the amendment was seriously entertained, as I judge from the remarks of the gentleman who offered it. [Mr. Develin], he himself is in favor of going to. Saratoga, and it is, natural that the residents of New York should desire to go to these wa. placesMr. BARKER - Can the gentleman inform the Convention when the races will begin at Saratop? Mr. MERRITT -I shall leave. that -to those' who desire to go there. I repeat again, there can be only one or two purposes im this resolution. One. is to raise a committee for, the k-, pose of reporting, 'on the condition of things, tkt Saratoga. Of course that, would be a good, Ad"r. tisemen, posed to making that adlre4jse m.a.nt_an^FAP;a1documentof thu('06,nventian. for by the newspapers, and by circulars we have been informed of the facilities that exist at that place. Why then appoldt this committee? Mr. DEVELIN-I rise to a point of order, that on a motion to reconsider, the gentleman cannot discuss the merits of the resolution. The PRESIDENT- The gentleman will proceed in order. Mr. MERRITT-I say I am not willing, in the case of people who may be interested in this change, in a pecuniary way or otherwise, that they should have the advantage of a report from a committee of this bodyMr. DEVELIN —I rise to a point of order. The gentleman is pursuing the same course. The PRESIDENT-The Chair understands the gentleman to be in order. Mr. MERRITT -I think that inavoting to raise this committee, we are voting practically upon the resolution itself, and there can be no courtesy or discourtesy about it. This has been considered and discussed somewhat in the early part of the session, and we were told that we were going to suffer great inconvenience by staying here, that our health would be endangered, but that prophecy has not been fulfilled yet, and we have suffered no inconvenience whatever from the temperature. It has undoubtedly been observed by those who have taken an interest in the degrees of temperature during the heated term, that there is no material difference between Albany, Saratoga, Ogdendburgh and Montreal, so that in that respect it will make but very little difference. It is possible there may be some surroundings about Saratoga which may make it more pleasant and agreeable for gentlemen of the Convention, but I am clearly of the opinion, if we change from Albany to Saratoga, that the inconvenience of getting there, attending sessions and procuring the proper printing, and the difficulty of getting information we may seek from the departments at Albany, and the State library, will overbalance any benefit which may be derived from the change. I have heard no complaint from any gentlemen on this floor, so far, of any inconvenience; we are all well located here, and I think it is hardly worth while to go to Saratoga. I do not suppose that any considerable number would even think of going to the city of New York, for, as I understand it. even a majority of the delegates from New York city are desirous to go to Saratoga and not to New York city, and I do not suppose the amendment was seriously entertained, as I judge from the remarks of the gentleman who offered it [Mr. Develin], he himself is in favor of going to Saratoga, and it is natural that the residents of New York should desire to go to these waterin placesMr. BARKER - Can the gentleman inform the Convention when the races will begin at Saratoga? Mr. MERRITT -I shall leave that to those who desire to go there. I repeat again, there can be only one or two purposes in this resolution. One is to raise a committee for the purpose of reporting on the condition of things at Saratoga. 0Of course that would be a good AdWer tisement, but I am opposed to making that advertise ment an ofcialdocument of this Onvention. It 360. supposed that a majority of this Conention seri- to take place at Saratoga. We have been disously entertained the idea of going to Saratoga. and cussing the question of races for several days, really desired to get information, as to whether we and I think if we have an adjournment to Saracould sit there more profitably, and shorten the toga it may involve a second consideration of session of this Convention, I should treat it in a races, and this may indefinitely prolong the different light, but I believe a majority of the Con- sessions of the Convention. And again, I think vention are opposed to going away from Albany it is inexpedient, because time will inevitably be and from our duty. One-half of what we call the wasted in preparing suitably for the sessions of heated term is already gone, and in a few weeks this Convention at any building in Saratoga which more we shall come to September, and then, we may be large enough for our reception. I admit shall suffer no inconvenience. I hope the vote all that has been said by the gentleman from New will be taken on the merits of the question, and York [Mr. Develin] with respect to the public we shall allow no question of courtesy or discour- spirit of persons in Saratoga, who have offered tesy to come in. the use of the Opera House there for the sessions Mr. TAPPEN-There are reasons why this of the Convention. But I believe, with all due motion should be reconsidered, and the chief rea- deference to their public spiritedness, that the son is that the Convention may come to a direct building would not be equally adapted to the vote on the qaestion. There are also other rea- sessions of this Convention and for the transacsons, why it should be reconsidered. If I remem- tion of its business as the Capitol. We ber right the history of Saratoga, it is classic have here all the facilities for conducting ground, it is the site of great revolutionary strug. our business, and there it would take gles. More than that, it is the seat of learning, some time to arrange the building so that business and it is the resort for the 'intellect, the wealth could be properly carried on. Again, sir, I think and the society of the State during this present it is inexpedient that this Convention should season. It is a place where this Convention, would become a migratory body. I think the question have an admiring and appreciative audience at all should be settled whether we are to be a traveling times; it is a place where we shall meet organization, or whether we are to be considered the men of this State, who, because of their a body occupied in discussing constitutional quesreuown and intellect, are the gentlemen with tions, and framing a Constitution for the State. whom the members of this Convention may What will become of our reputation among the desire to consult upon the subject of their people of the State who have chosen us to trausdeliberations. By voting to raise this committee, act this important business, if we authorize a we do not decide, that we will go to Saratoga, committee to consider the propriety of adjourning but we merely give the gentlemen who contend, to Saratoga. They will consider that we are that this removal is most advantageous, an op- more devoted to our own comfort, and to considerportunity of reporting on that subject. One of the ing questions of pleasure excursions throughout most eminent members of this Convention, says the State, than for the transaction of the importhat New York would be the proper place to close tant business with which they have intrusted us. the labors of this Convention, late in the season [ hope this Convention will not render itself liable and perhaps he is right. I am not going to say to the imputation of becoming a migratory that Albany is not the proper place to commence body. But, sir, if this resolution is to be ourlabors, where we can get all our documents adopted, and this Convention is to be carad papers, and Saratoga is the place to study ried about for the observation and for the satisthem. I think, sir, we might do twice as much faction of the people of the State, to be exhibited labor in one day in that place as we have done to them, I am not willing that it should be conyet in our daily sessions in the city of Albany. fined to Saratoga and New York. I wish the eside, sir, I am informed that Gen. Grant inhabitants of the western part of the State-of is to be there, and as he is to be the next Niagara Falls-should have the opportunity of President of the United States, it is eminently fit seeing this Convention. I wish the inhabitants and proper for this Convention to go there. I can of the sea coast to have the opportunity, and the conceive of no stronger argument for the political inhabitants of my own county, and I propose that mjority, that I am aware of at the present time. we also go to Lebanon Springs. If this body is to The atmosphere and the conveniences of that become a traveling organization I think it should place are particularly favorable to studying and be exhibited to the people of every part of the to the performance of the peculiar duties this State of New York. And I wish that my own Convention has met to perform. I trust that the. constituents of the county of Columbia shou4l advocates of this removal will be allowed a fair also have an opportunity of observing the deliberchance by their committee to have this subject ations of so distinguished a body as the Constitufavorably reported on. In regard to the proposed tional Convention of the State of New York. louse up there, I can say to the Convention from Mr. KETCHAM-I was a little surprised, sir, actual observation for the period of a few hours, the other day, at the motion to postpone this I am inclined to think it will ansWer. resolution. It seemed to me that common courtesy Mr. SILVESTER- Without intending to be to the gentlemen from Saratoga, who have so disorteous at all to the gentleman who intro- liberally offered the Convention the use of a ded this resolution, think that the considers- building there, demanded we should appoint a t a o n of i will be inepedient, andthe committee. No man who views the proposed x ien that sl gestsint ithef tUoe merid, fail tsee can fal t at it is better t t wh askd X by siteau rrom adapted to the business of this Conventio,:t f ke, astowheit r ft than th is room. And there aro other 361 sons and considerations besides the one of courtesy, which it seems to me should have prompted this Convention to appoint the committee. Those of us who were in the habit of seeing and hearing persons who have been in former legislatures, recollect their almost daily complaint of the internal inconvenience of this room. That there were no Committee rooms and they could not make any, that it was incomplete, dark and unhealthy; and later members of the Assembly' assert it to be indispensable that some better accommodations should be provided for one hundred apd twenty-eight men, as sitting in this room during the cool and bracing air of mid winter subjected members to disease and danger consequent upon their daily meetings here. It seems to me, sir, for' that reason we should gladly avail ourselves of an opportunity of appointing a committee to ascertain whether the conveniences of meeting at Saratoga are not greater and better than here. From personal observation I am satisfied they are. From personal observation I know we may have a room there much more eligible than this one for the use of the Convention, we can have surrounding committee rooms, and the proprietor of the Opera House offers to prepare it for our daily sessions at any time, on two days' notice, with desks and all. With regard to the idea, that we shall bring ourselves into disrepute, and endanger the adoption of any Constitution we may make, by the people. I have too much faith in the good sense of my constituents to believe they would reject a Constitution because of the particular place where it was adopted. I think they have too much good common sense to reject any Constitution that I helped to frame while I was enjoying good health. If I thought they would reject a Constitution because I did not sacrifice my health in framing it, I would go home and stay there. I have no fears, sir, that the Constitution will be rejected, because it shall happen to be adopted in Saratoga instead of the city of Albany. Mr. POND- It seems to me that the gentlemen who oppose this motion to reconsider, in some respects answer each other. The gentleman from St. Lawrence [Mr. Merritt], suggests that there is no necessity for the appointment of a committee such as is contemplated by the resolution, the reconsideration of which has been moved. He says that the Convention must know all the circumstances bearing upon the question, because the newspapers have contained the information. Well, sir, I know that whatever a man finds inthe newspapers must be true; and in that respect I agree with the gentleman from St. Lawrence [Mr. Merritt]. But there are a great many members of this Convention who think that sometimes statements get into the newspapers that are not entirely true. They probably labor under error, and the gentleman from St. Lawrence is entirely correct, that whatever is published in newspapers is correct and safe, so that the Convention may rely upon it and base its action thereupon. But there are several gentlemea ot so intelligent as the gentleman from St. Lawrence [Mr. Merritt) who have not relied upon what fod ithe niewspapers, and do n^ think i &4r. reiable.. Mr. MERRITT- I intended by my remarks to intimate that whatever has been said in the paprs is very favorable to Saratoga. It was put forth in their interests, and the proprietor of one of the hotels forwarded a circular to many members of this Convention, setting forth the reasons why we should go to Saratoga. Mr. POND -I did not misunderstand the gentleman. I know very well the newspapers have represented this proposition, and have represented it favorably, but I was not aware until it was announced by the gentleman from St. Lawrence [Mr. Merritt] that that was a sufficient basis upon which this Convention should act, On the contrary, I supposed that they would be acting a little more like a menagerie if they should adopt the suggestion of the gentleman from St. Lawrence [Mr. Merritt], and base official action upon what they saw in the newspapers, and on a private communication from one of the hotel owners in Saratoga, sent to several members of this Convention. Although, sir, I may happen to know that the reasons given in the newspapers are true; although I may happen to know that the statement of the proprietor of the hotel is correct; I sir, for one, think it would be entirely improper for the members of this Convention, or the Convention itself to act upon that suggestion and go to Saratoga. The gentleman from Columbia [Mr. Silvester] answered the gentleman from St. Lawrence [Mr. Merritt]; he says, notwithstanding the truthful statement of newspapers in this regard, and notwithstanding what this private. circular may have stated to the members of this Convention, there is no place in Saratoga fit for the meeting of this Convention. Very well. It may be true as the gentleman from Columbia asserts; or it may be true as the newspapers have asserted; but what is the proper mode of ascertaining these facts by a Convention of gentlemen such as are assembled here? Why, the legitimate mode and proper mode is by the appointment of a committee; and I would not ask the gentlemen of this Convention to act upon any statement of mine in regard to. the facilities which Saratoga has for facilitating the business of this Convention. I have not the assurance to do it. Mr. MERRITT -I would like to ask the gentleman [Mr. Pond] whether he has suffered any inconvenience here, except coming to this placeor whether the public business up to the present time has suffered in any way in consequence of holding our sessions in this Capitol. Mr. POND- No, sir; I can answer the gentle man [Mr. Merritt] by saying that I have not beMe incommoded because I have adjourned to Saratoga every night since the sessions of this Convernti have commenced, and therefore, I have had a partial advantage of gentlemen who have remained here. I have been informed that tee water in Albany is bad; I can assure the gn"tIman that the water in Saratoga is very good, an: they will find there every variety to satisfy t temperament and constitution of gentlemen:t on both and all sides of the question of r [Laughter.] I assume, therfore, that this suject it is proper, before final d ationo i 4 committee should be appointed; that Utf t l tia,.the ordinary parti ta,0. 362 nQtwittanding the weighty suggestion of my dotting of "i's" and the crossing of "t's." It is friend from St. Lawrence [Mr. Merritt] who says manifest to every one who reads the law that it that because the newspapers have said so and so, was placed there to allow the Convention to we may as well go to Saratoga without waiting for adjourn to another point elsewhere, and it is a committee to ascertain the facts. I suppose not common sense upon any other hypothesis or that the merits of the question upon this motion construction. It being there originally, and to reconsider, are not fairly before the Convention. contemplating that a contingency might arise It is enough, in order to have this committee when it was proper for this Convention to go appointed, to know there are many gentlemen in to Saratoga, and it being evidently the opinion this Convention who are favorable to this proposi- of a large number of the members of this tion, without any considerations of "respect Convention that our sessions might be held for the gentleman from Saratoga," requiring there profitably to the health of the members the appointment of this Committee. If it of the Convention, and profitably to the Conbe ascertained, as I am informed it has been stitution which it is proposed to frame here, and ascertained, by the votes taken on the original thinking also that the sessions there will facilitate proposition and by the votes taken on the motion the business of this Conventionto lay upon the table, that there are a large number Mr. MERRITT - I think the gentleman misof the members of this Convention who are represents the intent of the Legislature, for the favorable to this proposition, I say then it is reason that they provided for fitting up this proper, without ridicule, without converting the chamber for the use of the Convention. Secondly, members of this Convention into a "traveling they provided that Congress Hall should not be menagerie," to appoint a committee in order removed until after the sessions of this Convento inquire into this question and make a re- tion. They expected its sessions would be held port, and when the report has come in, our final here; but it was thought at the time that peraction may be based upon it. Some gentleman haps Tweddle Hall or some other room in this has suggested that if we appoint this committee city would be more convenient to the members, to inquire into the expediency of our going to Sar- and I know with that view some of the State offiatoga-if we receive a favorable report from that cers took into consideration the propriety of rentcommittee, and it is adopted, there will be danger ing Tweddle Hall for the sittings of this Conventhat the people will mistake this body for tion, and after an examination they thought that a "traveling menagerie. " So far as the sugges- this Chamber would answer all the conditions tion of the gentleman is concerned, perhaps it is required. Whatever construction may be put on not right to say that the people have not a right the law we should hold our sessions in this city to give this body what character they choose; but and not out of it. I am not afraid, for one, that any member of this Mr. POND-I understand that the gentleman Convention will be taken for an animal belong- [Mr. Merritt], holds a public office here, and it ing to a menagerie, unless the evidence of the will be convenient for him to remain here. When sense of sight forces gentlemen to come to that the Convention goes up to Saratoga we will let conclusion; and for one, I do not apprehend him come back and stay in Albany if he desires it. that any member will be in danger of any Mr. President, I will draw my remarks to a close such conclusion being drawn. I do not think, after a while if I am permitted to. I say that it Mr. President, that the manner in which being manifest that the law was intended to allow this proposition has been treated is a fair one. the sessions of the Convention to be held at Saratoga The Legislature when they passed this law, evi- or elsewhere,and it being deemed expedient by the 4ently had in view this very proposition. They Convention or by a large number of its members to did not deem it desirable to the Convention nor hold a session there, it is but right and proper, withto the people. of the State which they represent, out raising any question of courtesy, that the sugto put into the law a section or clause authorizing gestions of those gentlemen be answered, by the this specific thing. They did no; anticipate the appointment of a committee to examine into what manner in which this proposition would be way these very questions that have been sugattempted to be defeated. They did not think gested by gentlemen whether Saratoga Springs of putting a clause into the law giving this furnishes a good place for the sittings of this Convention power to go to Saratoga. There Convention, where the business may be facilitated, *have been a great many questions before the and where the health of the members may be conConvention as I have already said- suited better than here, axd also where the buMlMr. VAN CAMPEN -Will the gentleman [Mr. ness of this Convention may be better performebd Pond] give way for a moment, while I correct than at this place. him. Mr. DUGANNE-I yield to no man upon the Mr. POND - Certainly. floor of this Convention in desiring to extend propMr. VAN CAMPEN - The law provides as er courtesy on proper occasions to every delegate distinctly as possible against our going away from here; but I apprehend that courtesy and respect here. It says that "after the said Convention has are also due to the people of this State, who sent met and organized, it shall have power to ad- us here to perform our business as business men, joura to and hold its meetings at any other and not to be diverted from our duty by any ace thann he Assembly Chamber at the Capitol." temptations which are unworthy of business men. *:Mr. P - PN-I understand some learned gentle- If ]; did not look upon this whole matter of the eooked over that statute,, and that they movement to' adjourn to Saratoga, in a more Aid4 it prohbits the very thing it manifestly au- serious light than some of the gentlemen appear to e.: not pay much attention to the do, I should stigmatize it as a farce, and beneath 363 the dignity of delegates to this Convention; but, Mr. DUGANNE offered the following resoluunfortunately, without impugning the motives of tion: any of the gentlemen here, I am constrained to Resolved, That it is the sense of this Convention look upon it as a Trojan horse, introduced into that persons of African descent residing in the the Convention for the purpose of destroying State of New York, are entitled to the same it. It looks as if there was an inclination rights and immunities claimed by persons of to belittle this Convention by belittling European descent. its action. I trust that tho whole sub- Which was laid on the table. ject will now be deferred indefinitely, or until such Mr. HITCHMAN offered the following resolutime when we shall dispose of the true business tion: of this Convention. We have wasted already Resolved, That the Tax Commissioners of the thrs morning as we have wasted many mornings city of New York be instructed to report to this before, in unproductive discussion. Therefore, I Convention, the value, in their judgment, of the now move that this entire subject be postponed real estate, in use in that city, by the various until the 1st of September. religious denominations, for the purpose of public Mr. HALE-The first day of September is Sun- worship together with the assessed valuation of day. Will the gentleman [Mr. Duganne] change the same as returned to them, or the officers prethe date. ceding them, charged with the duties they now Mr. DUGANNE-Yes, sir, I will make it Mon- perform, from the year 1847 up to the year when day the 2nd of September. such property or real estate was exempted from The question was then put on the motion of taxation by Legislative enactment. Mr. Duganne, and it was declared carried by the Which was laid over under the rule. following vote: Mr. CURTIS called up for consideration the Ayes-Messrs. A. F. Allen, C. L. Allen, N. M. resolution offered by him yesterday. Allen, Andrews, Axtell, Barker, Barnard, Bell, The SECRETARY proceeded to read the resoBickford, E. A. Brown, Carpenter, Case, Cassidy, lution, as follows: Church, Cooke, Corbett, Corning, Curtis, Duganne, Resolved, That the Commissioners of the Land C. C. Dwight, T.W. Dwight, Ferry, Fowler, Francis, Office be requested to communicate to this ConFuller, Gould, Greeley, Gross, Hadley, Hale, vention their proceedings under chapter 481 of Hammond, Hand, Harris, Hitchcock, Houston, the Laws of 1866, authorizing the sale of lands Hutchins, Kernan. Kinney, Krum, Lapham, Law, donated to this State by the United States. Ludington, McDonald, Merrill, Merritt, Merwin, The question was put on the resolution of Morris, Murphy, Paige, A. J. Parker, C. E. Par- Mr. Curtis, and it was declared adopted. ker, President, Rathbun, Root, Roy, Rumsey, Mr. TAPPEN offered the following resolution: L. W. Russell, Schell, Schoonmaker, Seaver, Resolved, That the people of this State are entiSilvester, Smith, Strong, M. I. Townsend, Van tled to vote upon the question, "Shall the elective Campen, Wales, Wickham-67. franchise be extended to men of color without a _Noes-Messrs. Alvord, Baker, Ballard, Barto, property qualification?" as a separate proposition; Beadle, Beckwith, E. Brooks, E. P. Brooks, W. 0. and that this Convention, with a proper regard for Brown, Burrill, Champlami, Cheritree, Chesebro, the rights and interests of the people, will submit Clinton, Cochran, Daly, Develin, Eddy, Endress, such question to them, independent of the other Field, Folver, Frank, Fullerton, Grant, Graves, provisions amendatory of the Constitution. Hardenburgh, Hatch, Hitchman, Huntington, Mr. RATHBUN- Mr. ChairmanJarvis, Ketcham, Landon, Larremore, A. Law- The PRESIDENT —The question giving rise rence, M. H. Lawrence, Livingston, Lowrey, to debate, it will lie over under the rule. Magee, Masten, Mattice, Monell, More, Nelson, Mr. TAPPEN —I rise to a question of orderOpdyke, Pond, Prosser, Reynolds, Robertson, Mr. RATHBUN- I believe I have the floor. I Rogers, Rolfe, A. D. Russell, Schumaker, Shel- move to lay the resolution on the table. don, Sherman, Stratton, Tappen, S. Townsend, Mr. VEEDER - I call for the ayes and noes. Tucker, Van Cott, Veeder, Verplanck, Wakeman, Mr. ALVORID —I rise to a point of order. The Weed, Williams, Young-65. simple rising of a gentleman to propose a disposiMr. BARNARD offered tile follbwing resolution: tion of a resolution, carries it over as a matter Resolved. That this Convention this day will of course, under the rule. take a recess from 2 o'clock, P. M., to 4 o'clock, The PRESIDENT-The Chair so ruled. P. M. Mr. TAPPE - -I propose to raise a question The question was put on the resolution of Mr. of order upon that very decision. At this -late Barnard, and it was declared adopted. hour when we are about to adjourn there is very Mr. HALE offered the following resolution, and little time to debate. There is enough time, howasked that it be laid upon the table: ever, to state the question of order. During this Resolved. That a committee of seven be appoint- morning when a resolution similar in effect was ed by the Chair to consider and report upon the offered, bearing upon a question then pending, to mode of submission to the people, of the amend- wit: the report of the Committee on the Right o ments to ttie constitution that may be proposed Suffrage, I understood the President to hold, tha by the Convention, to report after the reports of although it was a debatable resolution it did ot all the standing committees shall have been re- go over to to-morrow morning, under the second ceived and. acted on. And that all resolutions and subdivision of Rule 29, it being germane to motions upon the subject of submission be referred subject then before the Convention, or about to such committee. before it. Which was laid on the table.The PRBSDe - The Chair wil......,..-;...,.. '.: ** '- ^ *: 1 1 ^ ' - > * 364 gteman from Westchester [Mr. Tappen] that it put its decision on the ground that the resolution flUtedt t the business of the day. The Chair dobs not so understand this resolution of the gentleman. r.I TAPPEN- The business which I understood the Chair to intimate, was the business of the day, was the report of the Committee on the Ithit of Suffrage, which was to be considered in Committee of the Whole. The PRESIDENT - Does the gentleman from Westchester [Mr. Tappen] appeal from the opinofthe Chair. Mr. TAPPEN —I do not sir. Mr. GRAVES-A few days since I presented to the Convention a resolution on the subject of Women's rights. That resolution was referred to the Committee of the Whole. Is it in order to eai up that resolution for discussion? The PRESIDENT -The Chair holds it is not. The PRESIDENT presented a communication from the Auditor of the Canal Department transmitting a report of the number of breaks in the Erie Canal in response to a resolution adopted by the Convention on the 11th inst. Which was referred to the Committee on Canals and ordered to be printed. Mr. SCHUMAKER called up for consideration the resolution offered by him yesterday. The SECRETARY proceeded to read the resolution as follows: esolved, That the Secretary of State report to this Convention the member of leases or grants given by the State or Commissioners of the Land Ofce, Which are still outstanding and unexpired, th names of the lessees or grantees, the rental, And a brief description of such property. The question was, put on the resolution of Mr. Sehumaker, and it was declared adopted. Mr. FOLGER offered the following resolution: JResolved, That after this day, debate in Committee f the Whole and in Convention, upon the report of the Committee upon the Rights of Suffrage, etc., be so confined as that a member may peak but once to any amendment, and but twenty miuites at a time. The question was then put on the resolution of Mr. Folger, and it was declared adopted. On motion of Mr. VEEDER -the Convention to0o a recess till 4 o'clock p. M. ArTERNOON SESSION. The Convention re-assembled at four o'clock. e Cfonvention resolved itself into the Committee Of the Whole on the report of the Committee on the ight of Suffrage, and the Qualifications to Hi' Office; Mr. ALV'ORD of Onondaga in the Te Chairman announced the question to be on the faendient offered by the gentleman from ( r. C, C. Dwight.]; iS offCed the owing amendment: Inhe rst ection strike out the word 'male,' rever in tha* ieotion the word 'he' iadd 'o. fishe,1 td erever t the wrd 'his' euts a' or er:'.'1 ' 1 *.mjh|i so new - W ttieb t (o11r^m us with the spirit and principles of our government, it is only just that I should attempt to show that it is neither repugnant to reason nor hurtful to the State. Yet I confess some embarrassment, for while the essential reason of my proposition seems to me to be clearly defined, the objection to it is vague and shadowy. From the formal opening of the general discussion of the question in this country, by the Convention at Seneca Falls, in 1848, down to the present moment, the opposition to the suggestion, so far as I am acquainted with it, has been only the repetition of a traditional prejudice, or the protest of mere sentimentality, and to cope with these is like wrestling with a malaria or arguing with the east wind. ' do not know why the committee have changed the phrase male inhabitant or citizen, which is uniformly used in a constitutional clause limiting the elective franchise. Under the circumstances, the word "man" is obscure and undoubtedly includes women as much as the word "mankind." But the intention of the clause is evident and the report of the committee makes it indisputable. Had the committee been willing to say directly what they say indirectly, the eighth line and what follows, would read: "Provided that idiots, lunatics, persons under guardianship, felons, women, and persons convicted of bribery, etc., shall not be entitled to vote." In their report, the committee omit to tell us why they politically class the women of New York with idiots and criminals. They assert merely, that the general enfranchisement of women would be a novelty, which is true of every step of political progress and is therefore a presumption in its favor, and they speak of it in a phrase which is intended to stigmatize it as unwomanly, which is simply an assumption and a prejudice. I wish to know, sir, and I ask in the name of the political justice and consistency of this State, why it is that half of the adult population, as vitally interested in good government as the other half, who own property, manage estates and pay taxes, who discharge all the duties of good citizens and are perfectly intelligent and capable, are absolutely deprived of political power, and classed with lunatics and felons. The boy will become a man and a voter; the lunatic may emerge from the cloud and resume his rights; the idiot, plastic under the tender hand of modern science, may be moulded into the full citizen; the criminal whose hand still drips with the blood of his country and of liberty, may be pardoned and restored. But no age, no wisdom, no peculiar fitness, no public service, no effort, no desire can remove from women this enormous and extraordinary disability. Upon what reasonable grounds does it rest? Upon none whatever. It is contrary to natural justice, to the acknowledged and traditional principles of the American government, and to the most enlightened political philosophy. The absolute ex. clusion of women from political power in this State is simply usurpation. "In every age and country" says the historian Gibbon, nearly a hundred years ago "the wiser or at least the stronger of the two sexes, has usurped the powers of the State and confined the other to the cares and peasures of domstic life." The historical fact is that the usurping class, as 365 Gibbon calls them, have always regulated the It is in vain for the Conmittee to say;toi k position of women by their own theories and con- for an enlargement of the franchise and must therevenience. The barbaric Persian, for instance, fore show the reason. Sir, I show the reason punished an insult to the woman with death, not upon which this franchise itself rests, and which, because of her but of himself. She was part of in its very nature, forbids arbitrary exclusion; him. And the civilized English Blackstone only and I urge the enfranchisement of women on tho repeats the barbaric Persian when he says that ground that whatever political rights men have, the wife and husband form but one person -that women have equally. I have no wish to refine is the husband. Sir, it would be extremely amus- curiously upon the origin of government. If any ing, if it were not tragical, to trace the conse- one insists with the honorable gentleman from quences of this theory on human society and the Broome that there are no such things as natural unhappy effect upon the progress of civilization of political rights and that no man is born a voter, Iwill this morbid estimate of the importance of men. not now stop to argue with him, but as I believe Gibbon gives a curious instance of it. and an in- the honorable gentleman from Broome is by professtance which recalls the spirit of the modern sion a physician and surgeon, I wil suggest to him English laws of divorce. There was a temple that if no man is born a voter, so no man is born in Rome to the Goddess who presided over a man-for every man is born a baby. But he is the peace of marriages. "But." says the his- born with the right of becoming a man without toriau, "Her very name Viriplaca - the ap- hindrance; and I ask the honorable gentleman, as peaser of husbands, shows that repentance an American citizen and political philospher, and submission were always expected from the whether, if every man is not born a voter, he is wife,"- as if the offense usually came from her. not born with the right of becoming a voter upon In the "Lawe's resolution of Women's Rights" equal terms with other men? What else is the published in the year 1632, a book which I have meaning of the phrase which I find in the New York not seen, but of which there are copies in the Tribune of Monday, and have so often found there. country, the anonymous and quaint author says "The radical basis of government is equal rights for and with a sly satire: " It is true that man and wo- all citizens." There are, as I think, we shall all adman are one person, but understand in what man- mit, some kind of natural rights. This summer air ner. When a small brooke or little river incor- that breathes benignant around our national anniporateth with Rhodanus, Humber or the Thames, versary, is vocal with the traditional eloquence with the poor rivulet looseth her name: it is carried which those rights were asserted by our fathers. and recarried with the new associate: it bear- From all the burning words of the time I quote eth no sway-it possesseth nothing during those of Alexander Hamilton, of New York, coverture. A woman as soon as she is married. in reply, as my honorable friend the chairman is calledcovert: in Latinenupta-that is, veiled; as of the committee will remember, to the tory it were overclouded and shadowed; she hath lost farmer of Westchester: "The sacred rights her streame. I may more truly farre away, say to a of mankind are not to 'be rummaged for married woman, her new self is her superior; her among old parchments or dusty records. They companion her master. * * Seeliere the reason of are written as with a sunbeam in the whole that which I touched before-that women have volume of human nature by the hand of no voice in Parliament; they make no laws; they the Divinity itself, and can never be erasedior consent to none; they abrogate none. All of them obscured by mortal power." In the next year, are understood either married or to be married, Thomas Jefferson, of Virginia, summed up the and their desires are to their husbands." political faith of our fathers in the great declaraFrom this theory of ancient society that tion. Its words vibrate through the history of woman is absorbed in man, that she is a those days. As the lyre of Amphion raised the social inferior and a subordinate part of man, walls of the city, so they are the music which springs the system of laws in regard to woman sing course after course of the ascending struwhich in every civilized country is now in course ture of American civilization into its place. of such rapid modification, and it is this theory Our fathers stood indeed upon technical and legal which so tenaciously lingers as a traditional grounds when the contest with Great Britain beprejudice in our political customs. But a gan, but as tyranny encroached they rose naturally State which like New York recognizes the equal into the sphere of fundamental truths as into a individual 'rights of all its members, declaring purer air. Driven by storms beyond sight ofland that none of them shall be disfranchised the sailor steers by the stars. Our fathers deunless by the law of the land or the judgment of rived their government from what they called Aelf his peers, and which acknowledges women as evident truths. Despite the brilliant and vehement property holders and taxable, responsible citizens, eloquence of Mr. Choate, they did not deal in glit has wholly renounced the old Feudal and Pagan tering generalities, and the Declaration of nldetheory, and has no right to continue the evil con- pendence was not the passionate manifeto of a dition which springs from it. The honorable revolutionary war, but a calm and sgmplestastemnt and eloquent gentleman from Onondaga said of a new political philosophy and praetiee., The that he favored every enlargement of the rights which they declared to be unaliele are Win franchise consistent with the safety of the State. deed what are usuallycalled natural, as distingushSir, I heartily agree with him, and it was the duty ed from political rights, but they are Aot!iimitd of the committee in proposing to continue the by sex. A woman as the same rigWtoher lf, exclusion of women, to show that it is neces- liberty and property, that a ma ha, and he as sary to the welfare and safety of the State ronsequently the sr tto u y that the whole sex shall be disfranchised. tetb t:atltba ndI is whatis meant by the phrase, the right of -suffrage. If I have a natural right to that hand, I have an equal natural right to everything that secures to me its use, provided it does not harm the equal right of another; and if I Have a natural right to my life and liberty, I have the same right to everything that protects that life and liberty which any other man enjovs. I should like my honorable friend, the chairman of this committee, to show me any right which God gave him which he also gave to me, for which God gave him a claim to any defense which he has not given to me. And I ask the same question for every woman in this State. Have they less natural right to life, liberty and property, than my honorable friend the chairman of the committee-and is it not, to quote the words of his report, an extremely " defensible theory," that he cannot justly deprive the least of those women of any protection of thoso rights which he claims for himself? No, sir, the natural, or what we call civil right and its political defense, go together. This was the impregnable logic of the revolution. Lord Gower sneered in Parliament at the Colonists a century ago as Mr. Robert Lowe sneers at the reformers to-day. " Let the Americans talk about their natural and divine rights." "I am for enforcing these measures." Dr. Johnson bellowed across the Atlantic "Taxation, no Tyranny," James Otis spoke for America for common sense, and for the eternal justice, in saying: " no good reason however can be given in any country, why every man of a sound mind should not have his vote in the election of a representative. If a man has had but little' property to protect and defend, yet his life and liberty are things of some importance." And long before James Otis, Lord Somers said to a Committee of the House of Commons, that the possession of the vote is the only true security which an Englishman has for the possession of his life and property. Every person, then, is born with an equal claim to every kind of protection of his natural rights which any other person enjoys. The practical question therefore is how shall this protection be best attained; and this is the question of government which, according to the Declaration, is established for the security of these rights. The British theory was that they could better be secured by an intelligent few than by the ignorant and passionate multitude. Goldsmith expressed it on singing: " For just experience shows in every soil, That those who think must govern those who toil." Nobody denies that the government of the best is the best government, the practical question is how to find the best, and common sense replied: " The god, tie true, are heaven's peculiar care, Dutwo but heaven shall show us who they are.' And our fathers answered the question of the best and surest protection of natural right by their famous phrase, "the consent of the governed" That is to say, since every man is born wU equal natural rights, he is entitled to an eq protectin of them with all other men; and: sine government is that protection, right reaon and experience alike demand that v f av avoice in the government upon perfectly equal and practicable terms-that is upon terms which are not necessarily and absblutely insurmountable by any part of the people. These terms cannot rightfully be arbitrary. But the argument of the honorable gentleman from Schenectady, whose lucid and dignified discourse needs no praise of mine, and the arguments of others who have derived government from society, seemed to assume that the political people may exclude and include at their pleasure; that they may establish purely arbitrary tests, such as height, or weight, or color, or sex. This was substaritially the squatter sovereignty of Mr. Douglas, who held that the male white majority of the settlers in a territory might deprive a colored minority of all their rights whatever; and he declared that they had the right to do it. The same right that this Convention has to hang me at this moment to that chandelier, but no other right. Brute force, sir, may do anything; but we are speaking of rights, and of rights under this government, and I deny that the people of the State of New York can rightfully, that is, according to right reason and the principles of this government derived from it, permanently exclude any class of persons or any person whatever from a voice in the government, unless it can be clearly established that their participation in political power would be dangerous to the State; and therefore, the honorable gentleman from Kings was logically correct in opposing the enfranchisement of the colored man, upon the ground that they were an inferior race, of limited intelligence, a kind of Chimpanzee at best. I think, sir, the honorable and scholarly gentleman-even he —will admit. that at Fort Pillow, at Milliken's Bend, at Fort Wagner, the Chimpanzees did uncommonly well; yes, sir, as gloriously and immortally as our own fathers at Bunker Hill and Saratoga. "There ought to be no Pariahs," says John Stuart Mill, "in a full grown and civilized nation; no persons disqualified except through their own default. * * Every one is degraded, whether aware of it or not, when other people, without consulting him, take upon themselves unlimited power to regulate his destiny." "No arrangement of the suffrage, therefore, can be permanently satisfactory in which any person or class is peremptorily excluded; in which the electorial privilege is not open to all persons of full age who desire it." (Rep. G., p. 167.) And Thomas Hare, one of the acutest of living political thinkers, says that in all cases where a womnan fulfills the qualification which is imposed upon a man, ' there is no sound reason for excluding her from the Parliamentary franchise. The exclusion is probably a remnant of the feudal law, and is not in harmony with the other civil institutions of the country. There would be great propriety in celebrating a reign which has been productive of so much moral benefit by the abolition of an anomaly which is so entirely without any justifiable foundation." (Hare, p. 280.) The Chairman of * the committee asked Miss? Anthony the otherevening whether, if suffrage were a natural right, it could be denied to children? Her answer seemed to me perfectly satisfactory. She said simply "all that we ask is an equal and not an arbitrary regulation. If you have the 367 right, we have it." The honorable Chairman would hardly deny that to regulate the exercise ot a right according to obvious reason and experience is one thing, to deny it absolutely and forever is another. The safe practical rule of our Government, as James Madson expressed it, is that " it be derived from the great body of the people, not from an inconsiderable portion or favored class of it." When Mr. Gladstone, in his famous speech that startled England, said, in effect, that no one could be justly excluded from the franchise, except upon grounds of personal unfitness or publicdanger, he merely echoed the sentiment of Joseph Warren, which is gradually seen to be the wisest and most practical political philosophy: "I would have such a government as should give every man the greatest liberty to do what he chooses, consistent with restraining him from doing any injury to another." Is not that the kind of government, sir, which we wish to propose for this State? And if every person in New York has a natural right to life, liberty and property, and a coexistent right to a share in the government which defends them, regulated only by perfectly equitable conditions, what are the practical grounds upon which it is proposed to continue the absolute and hopeless disfranchisement of half the adult population? It is alleged that they are already represented by men. Where are they so represented, and when was the choice made? If I am told that they are virtually represented, I reply with James Otis that "no such phrase as virtual representation is known in law or Constitution. It is altogether a subtlety and illusion, wholly unfounded and absurd."' I. repeat, if they are represented, when was the choice made? Nobody pretends that they have ever been consulted. It is a mere assumption to the effect that the interest and affection of men in women will lead them to just and wise legislation for women as well as for themselves. This is merely the old appeal for the political power of a class. It is just what the British Parliament said to the colonies a hundred years ago. " We are all under the same government," they said, "our interests are identical; we are all Britons; Britannia rules the wave; God save the King, and down with sedition and Sons of Liberty." The colonies chafed and indignantly protested, because the assumption that therefore fair laws were made was not true; because they were discovering for themselves what every nation has discovered-the truth that shakes England to-day, and brings Disraeli and the tory party to their knees, and has already brought this country to blood, that there is no class of citizens, and no single citizen who can safely be intrusted with the permanent and exclusive possession of political power. " There is no instance on record," says Buckle, in his history of civilization in England, " of any class possessing power without abusing it." It is as true of men as a class as it is of an hereditary nobility, or of a class of property holders. Men are not wise enough, nor generous enough, nor pure enough to legislate fairly for women. The laws of the most civilized nations depress and degrade women. The legislation is in favor of the legislating class. In the celebrated debate upon the marriage amendment act in England, Mr. Gladstone said that 11 when the gospel came into the, vrorld woman was elevated to an oqualitk with her stronger companion." Yet at the very time, he was speaking, the English law of divorce, made by men to regulate their domestic relations with women, was denounced by the law lords themselves, as 11 disgusting and demoralizing" in its operation. " barbarous" " indecent," 11 a disgrace to the country," and " shocking to the sense of rlght.11 Now, if the equality of.which Mr. Gladstone spoke had been political as well as senVimental, does he or any statesnan suppose that the law of divorce would have been what it then was, or that' the law of England to-day would give all the earnings of a married woman to her husband; or that of France forbid a woman to receive any gift without her husband's permission? We ask women to confide in us, as having the same interests with them. Did any despot ever say any thing else? And if it be sfa or proper for any intelligent part of the people to relinquish exclusive political power to any class, I ask the committee who propose that women should be compelled to do this, to what class, however rich oe intelligent, or honest, they would themselves surrender their power? and what they would do if any class attempted to usurp that power? They know as we all Dow, as our own experience has taught us, that the only security of natural right is the ballot. They know, and the instinct of the whole loyal land knows, that when we had abolished slavery, the emancipation could be completed and secured only by the ballot, in the hands of the emancipated class. Civil rights were a mere mocking name 'until political power gave them substance. A year ago Governor Orr, of South Carolina told us that the rights of the freedmen were safest in the hands of their old masters. "Will you walk into my parlor, said the spider to the fly." New Orleans, Memphis and countless and constant crimeFi showed what that safety was. Then, hesitating no longer, the nation handed the ballot to the freedmen. and said 11 protect yourselves I" And now Governbr Orr says that the part of wisdom for South - Carolina is to cut loose from all parties and make a cordial alliance wi.h the colored citizens. Governor Orr knows that a man with civil rights merely is a blank cartridge. Give him the ballot, and you add a bullet, and make him effective. In that section of the country, seething with old hatreds and wounded pride and a social system upheaved from the foundation, no other measure could have done for real pacification in a century what the mere promise of the ballot has done in a vear. The. one formidable Peril in the whole subject of reconstruction has been the chance that Congress would continue in the Southern States the political power in the hands of a, class, as the re rt of the committee that we shall do in New, York. I forget the progressive legislation of New York in regard to the rights of women. The property, bill of 1860 and its Supplement, aocord. ing to the New York Tribune, roiO41 five thousand women from pauperism in.a put women in the Barney', as far As properq'rihU I ibbidoi than &dia, that "when the gospel came into the world woman was elevated to an equality with her stronger companion." Yet at the very time he was speaking, the English law of divorce, made by men to regulate their domestic relations with women, was denounced by the law lords themselves, as "disgusting and demoralizing" in its operation; "barbarous," " indecent," "a disgrace to the country," and " shocking to the sense of right." Now, if the equality of which Mr. Gladstone spoke had been political as well as sentimental, does he or any statesman suppose that the law of divorce would have been what it then was, or that the law of England to-day would give all the earnings of a married woman to her husband; or that of France forbid a woman to receive any gift without her husband's permission? We ask women to confide in us, as having the same interests with them. Did any despot ever say any thing else? And if it be safe or proper for any intelligent part of the people to relinquish exclusive political power to any class, I ask the committee who propose that women should be compelled to do this, to what class, however rich or intelligent, or honest, they would themselves surrender their power? and what they would do if any class attempted to usurp that power? They know as we all now, as our own experience has taught us. that the only security of natural right is the ballot. They know, and the instinct of the whole loyal land knows, that when we had abolished slavery, the emancipation could be completed and secured only by the ballot, in the hands of the emancipated class. Civil rights were a mere mocking name until political power gave them substance. A year ago Governor Orr, of South Carolina told us that the rights of the freedmen were safest in the hands of thei old masters. "Will you walk into my parlor, said the spider to the fly." New Orleans, Memphis and countless and constant crimes showed what that safety was. Then, hesitating no longer, the nation handed the ballot to the freedmen, and said "protect yourselves 1" And now Governbr Orr says that the part of wisdom for South Carolina is to cut loose from all parties and make a cordial alliance wi.h the colored citizens. Governor Orr knows that a man with civil rights merely is a blank cartridge. Give him the ballot, and you add a bullet, and make him effective. In that section of the country, seething with old hatreds and wounded pride and a social system upheaved from the foundation, no other measure could have done for real pacification in a century what the mere promise of the ballot has done in a year. The one formidable peril in the whole subject of reconstruction has been the chance that Congress would continue in the Southern States the political power in the hands of a class, as the report of the committee proposes that we shall do in New York. do not forget the progressive legislation of New York in regard to the rights of women. The property bill of 1860 and its supplement, according to the New York Tribune, redeemed five thousand women from pauperism. In the next year Illinois put women in the same position with men as far as propery rights a remed are conoerned. I ntion thei f:cts with pleasure, a I read that Iouis Japoleon i-l under certain conditions, permit the Freneh people to. say what they think. But if such reforms are desirable they would have been sooner effected could woman have been a positive political power. Upon this point one honorable gentleman asked Miss Anthony whether the laws both for men and women were not constantly improving,and whether, therefore, it was not unfair to attribute the character of the laws about women to the fact that men made. them. The reply is.very evident. If women alone made the laws, legislation for both men and women would undoubtedly be progressive. Does the honorable gentleman think, therefore, that woman only should make the laws? It is not true, Mr. Chairman, that in the ordinary and honorable sense of the words women are represented. Laws are made for them by another class and upon the theories which that class, without the fear of political opposition, may choose to entertain, and in direct violation of the principles upon which, in their own case, they tenaciously insist. I live, air, in the county of Richmond. It has a population of some 27,000 persons. They own property and manage it. They are taxed and pay their taxes, and they fulfill the duties of citizens with average fidelity. But if the committee had introduced a clause into the sectioi they propose to this effect: "Provided that idiots, lunatics, ~persons under guardianship, felons, inhabitants of the county of Richmond and persons convicted of bribery, shall not be entitled to vote"-they would not have proposed a more monstrous injustice nor a grosser inconsistency with every fundamental right and American principle than in the clause they recommend, and in that case, sir, what da you suppose would have been my reception had I returned to my friends and neighbors, and had said to them, "the Convention thinks that you are virtually represented by the voters of Westchester and Chautauqua." Mr. Chairman, I have no superstition about the ballot. I do not suppose it would immediately right all the wrongs of women, any more than it has righted all those of men. But what external agency has righted so many? Here are thousands of miserable men all around us; but they have every path opened to them; they have their advocates; they have their votes; they make the laws, and at last and at worst they have their strong right hands. And here are thousands of miserable women pricking back death and dishonor with a little needle, and now the sly hand of science stealing that little needle away. The ballot does not make those men happy, nor respectable, nor rich, nor noble. But they uard it for themselves with sleepless jealk oesy, because they know it is the golden gate to every opportunity; and precisely the kind of ad-, vantge it gives to one sex, it would give to,the other. It would arm it with the most powerful weapon knw to political society; it would main tain the natural balnce of the sexes in human tirs, nd secure to eah fair play within its sphe. But, sir, the. commwitee tll us that the e of wmen would be a ltionaryinnovait wftd rflSt. ti enero trads. gnie4 as shool teachers in Massachusetts. At that time the New England "schoolmarm" and I use the word with affectionate respect, was a revolutionary innovation. She has been abroad ever since, and has been by no means the least efficient, but always the most modest and unnoticed otthe great civilizing influences in this country. Innovation,-why, sir, when Sir Samuel Romilly proposed to abolish the death penalty for stealing a handkerchief, the law officers of the Crown said it would endanger the whole criminal law of England. When the bill abolishing the slave trade passed the House of Lords, Lord St. Vincent rose and stalked out, declaring that he washed his hands of thetruin of the British Empire. When the Greenwich pensioners saw the first steamer upon the Thames, they protested that they did not like the steamer, for it was contrary to nature. When, at the close of the reign of Charles II, London had half a million of people, there was a fierce opposition to street lamps. Such is the hostility of venerable traditions to an increase of light. When Mr. Jefferson learned that New York had explored the route of a canal, he benignly regarded it, in the spirit of our committee, as doubtless " defensible in theory," for he said that it was " a very fineproject, and might be executed a century hence." And fifty-six years ago, Chancellor Livingston wrote from this city that the proposition of a railroad, shod with iron, to move heavy weights four miles an hour, was ingenious, perhaps "theoretically defensible," bitt upon the whole the road would not be so cheap or convenient as a canal. In this country, sir, the venerable traditions are used to being disturbed. America was clearly designed to be a disturber of traditions, and to leave nobler precedents than she found. So, a few months ago, what the committee call a revolutionary innovation was proposed by giving the ballot to the freedmen in the District -of Columbia. The awful results of such a revolution were duly set forth in one of the myriad veto messages of the President of the United States. But they have voted. If anybody proposed to disturb the election, it was certainly not the new voters. The election was perfectly peaceful, and not one of the Presidential pangs has been iustified. So with this reform. It is new, in the extent proposed. It is as new as the harvest after the sowing, and it is as natural. The resumption of rights, long denied or withheld, never made a social convulsion. That is produced by refusing them. The West Indian slaves received their liberty, praying, upon their knees; and the influence of the enfranchisement of women will glide into society as noiselessly as the davwn increases into day., Or shall I be told that women, if not numerically counted at the polls, do yet exert an immense influence upon politics, and do not really need the ballot. If this argument were seriously urged, I should suffer my eyes to rove through this chamber and they would show me smany honorable gentlemen of reputed political iufluenpe. May they, therefore, be properly and justly disfranchised? I ask the honorable chairman of the committee, whether he thinks that a citizen should have no vote because he has influence? What gives influence? Ability, intelligen, honesty.,A'e these to be excluded from the olls s it onlystupidity, ignorance and ras 869 eality which ought to possess political power? Or political rights of women, there arises in many will it be said that women do not want the ballot minds a dreadful vision of a mighty exodus of the and ought to be asked? And upon what princi- whole female world, in bloomers and spectacles, pie ought tley to be asked? When natural rights from the nursery and kitchen, to the polls. It or their means of defense have been immemori- seems to be tloughft that if women practically ally denied to a large class, does humanity, or took part ill politics, the home would instantly be justice, or good sense require that they should left a howling wilderness of cradles and a chaos be registered and called to vote upon their own of undarned stockings and buttonless shirts. But restoration? Why, Mr. Chairman. it might as how is it with men? Do they desert their workwell be said that Jack the Giant Killer ought to shops, their plows and offices, to pass their time have gravely asked the captives in the at the polls? Is it a credit to a man to be called ogre's dungeon whether they wished to a professional politician? The pursuits of men in be released. It must be assumed that men the world, to which they are directed by the and women wish to enjoy their natural natural aptitude of sex and to which they must rights, as that the eves wish light or the lungs an devote tleir lives, are as foreign from political atmosphere. Did we wait for emancipation until functions as those of women. To take an extreme the slaves petitioned to be free? No, sir, all our case. There is nothing more incompatible with lives had been passed il ingenious and igliomini- political duties in cooking and taking care of chilous efforts to sophisticate and stultify ourselves dren than there is in digging ditches or making for keeping them chained; and when war gave shoes, or in any other necessary employment, us a legal riglit to snap their bonds, we did not while in every superior interest of society growask them whether they preferred to remain ing out of the family, the stake of women is not slaves. We knew that they were men, and that less than men. and their knowledge is greater. In men by nature walk upright, and if we find them England, a womanl who owns slhares in the East bent and crawling, we know that the posture is India Company may vote. In this country she unnatural whether they may think so or may vote, as a stockholder, Upon a railroad fiom not. In the case of women we acknowl- one end of the country to another. Bllt if she edge that they have the same natural sells her stock and buys a house with the money, rilhts as ourselves-we see that they hold she has no voice in the layint out of the road property and pay taxes, and we must of necessity before her door, which ler house is taxed to keep suppose that they wish to enjoy every security of and pay for. And why, in the name of good sense tlose rights that we possess. So when in this if a responsible human being mar vote upon State, every year, thouslands of boys come of age, specific industrial projects may she not vote upon we do not solemnly require them to tell us wletler the industrial regulation of the State? Tliere is they wish to vote. We assume. as of course. no more reason that men should assume to decide that they do, and we say to themr, " go, and upon participation in politics to be unwomanly than that the same terms with the rest of us, vote as you women should decide for men that it is unchoose." But gentlemen say that they know a manly. It is not our prerogative to keep great many women who do not wish to vote, who women feminine. I think, sir, they mr.y be think it is not lady-like or whatever the proper trusted to defend the delicacy of their own sex. term may be. Well, sir, I have known many Our success in managing ours has not been so men who habitually abstained from politics be- conspicuo'.- that we should urgently desire more cause they were so " ungentlemanly ' and who labor of the same kind. Nature is quite as wise thought that no man could touch pitch as we. Whatever their sex iticapacitates women without defilement. Now, what would the from doing they will not do. Whatever duty is conhonorable gentlemlen who know women who do not sistent with their sex and their relation to society, wisll to vote, have thought of a proposition that I they will properly demand to do until they are should not vote, because my neighbors did not permitted. When the committee declare that wish to? There may have been slaves who pre- voting is at war with the distribution of functions ferred to remain slaves-was that an argument between the sexes, what do they mean? Are not against freedom? Suppose there are a majority of women as much interested in good government as the women of this State who do not wish to vote, men? Has the mother less at stake in equal laws -is that a reason for depriving one woman who honestly administered than the father? There is is taxed, of her equal representation? or one inno- fraud ill the Legislature; there is corruption in cent person of the equll protection of his life the courts: there are hospitals, and tenement and liberty? Tlhe anledmelnt proposes no com- houses, and prisons; there'are gambling-houses, pulsion like the old New E'ngland law, wlicl and billiard-rooms, and brothels; there are grog. fined every voter who did not vote. If' there shops at every corner, and I know not what are citizens of the State who think it unlady- enormous proportion of crime in the State prolike or ungentlemanlike to take their part in ceeds from them; there are forty thousand the government, let them stay at home. But. drunkards in the State, and their hundreds do not, I pray you, give them authority to de- of thousands of children-all these things tain wiser and better citizens from their duty. are subjects of legislation, and under the But I shall be told, in the language of the report exclusive legislation of men the crime assoof the committee, that the proposition is openly at ciated with all these things becomes vast and war with the distribution of functions and duties complicated,-have the wives and mothers and between the sexes. Translated into English, Mr. sisters of New York less vital interest in them, Chairman, this means that it is unwomanly to vote. less practical knowledge of them and their pioper Well, sir, I know that at the very mention of the treatment, than the husbands and fathers? No 47 S70 man is so insane as to pretend it. Is there then any natural incapacity in women to understand politics? It is not asserted. Are they lacking in thle necessary intelligence? But the moment that you erect a standard of intelligence wliich is sufficient to exclude women as a sex, that moment most of their amiable fellow citizens in trowsers would be disfranchised. Is it that they ought not to go to public political meetings? But we earnestly invite them. Or that they should not go to the polls? Some polls. I allow, in the larger cities, are dirty and dangerous places, and those itis the duty of the police to reform. But no decent man wislhes to vote in a grog-shop, iior to have his head broken while he is doing it, while the mere act of dropping a ballot in a box is about the simplest, shortest and cleanest that can be done. Last winter Senator Freliuglhuysen, repeating, I am sure thoughtlessly, the common rhetoric of the question spoke of the high and hlly mission of women. But if people, with a high and holy mission, may innocently sit bare-necked in hot theaters to be studied through pocket telescopes until midnight by aly one who chooses, how can their high and holy mission be harmed by tleir quietly dropping a ballot in a box But if women vote, they must sit on juries. Why not? Nothing is plainer than that thousands of women who are tried every year as criminals are not tried by their peers. And if a woman is bad enough to commita heinous crime, must we absurdly assume that women are too good to know that there is such a crime? If they may not sit on juries, certainly they ougllt not to be witnesses. A note in Howell's State Trials to which my attention was drawn by one of my distinguished colleagues in tho Convention, quotes an ancient work, "Probation by witnesses," by Sir George Mackenzie, in which he says, "The reason why women are excluded from witnessing must be either that they are subject to too much compassion and so ought not to be more received in criminal cases than in civil cases; or else the law was unwilling to trouble them and thought it might learn them too much confidence and make them subject to too much familarity with men and strangers, if they were necessitated to vague up and down at all courts upon all occasions." Hume says this rule was held as late as the beginning of the eighteenth century. But if too much familiarity with men be so pernicious, are men so pure that they alone should make laws for women, and so honorable that they alone should try women for breaking them? It is within a very few years at the Liverpool Assizes in a case involving peculiar evidence that Mr. Russell said: "The evidence of women is, in some respects, superior to that of men. Their power of judging of minute details is better, and when there are more than two facts and something be wanting, their intuitions supply the deficiency." " And precisely the qualities which fit them to give evidence," says Mrs. )all to whom we owe this fact "fit them to sift and test it." But the objectors continue, would you have women hold office? If they are capable and desirous, why not? They hold office now rqost acceptably. In my immediate neighborhood a postmistress has been so faithfiul an officer for seven years, that when there was a rumor of her removal, it was a matter of public concern. This is a familiar instance in this country. Scott's "Antiquary" shows that a similar service was not unknown in Scotland. In Notes and Queries ten years ago (vol. II, sec. 2, 1856, pp. 83, 204), Alexander Andrews says: "It was by no means unusual tfr females to serve the office of overseer in small rural parishes," and a communication on the same publication (1st series vol. II, p. 383), speaks of a curious entry in the Harleian Miscellany (MS. 980, fol. 153.) The Countess of Richmond, mother to [Henry VII, was a Justice of the Peace. Mr. Atturney said if it was so, it ought to have been by commission, for which he had made many an hower's search for the record, but could never find it, but he had seen many arbitriments that were made by her. Justice Joanes affirmed that lie had often heard fiom his motler of the Lady Bartlett, mother to the Lord Barllett, that she was a Justice of the Peace, and did set usually upon the bench witl th6 other Justices in Gloucestershire; that she was made so by Queen Mary, upon her complaint to her of the injuries she sustained by some of that county, and desiring for redress thereof; that as sloe, herself, was ChiefJustice of all England, so this lady might be in her own county, which accordingly the Queen granted. Another example was alleged of one - Rowse, in Suffolk, who usually at the assizes and sessions there held, set upon the bench among the Justices gladio cincta." The Countess of Pembroke, was hereditary sheriff of Westmoreland, and exercised her office. Henry the Eighth granted a Commission of inquiry. under the great seal, to Lady Ann Berkeley, who opened it at Gloucester and passed sentence under it. Henry Eighth's daughter, Elizabeth Tudor, was Queen of England, in name and in fact, during the most illustrious epoch of English history. Was Elizabeth incompetent? Did Elizabeth unsex herself? Or do you say she was an exceptional woman? So she was, but no more an exceptional woman than Alfred, Marcus Aureliuis or Napoleon were exceptional men. It was held by some of the ol1 English writers that a woman might serve in almost any of the great offices of the Kingdom. And indeed if Victoria may deliberate in council with her ministers, why may not any intelligent English woman deliberate in Parliament or any such American woman in Congress? Tlhe whole history of the voting, and office holding of women slhows that whenever men's theories of the relation of property to the political franclise-or of the lineal succession of the governiment, requires that women shall vote or hold office, the objection of impropriety and incapacity wholly disappears. If it be unwomanly for a wo. man to vote, or to hold office, it is unwomanly for Victoria to be Queen of England. Surely if our neighbors had thought they would be better represented in this Convention by certain women, there is no good reason why thty should have been compelled to send us. Why should I or any person be forbidden to select the agent whom we think most competent and truly representative of our will? There is no talent or training required in the making of laws 871 which is peculiar to tile male sex. What is need- politics have been wholly managed by men? How ed is intelligence, and experience. Tile rest is can we purify them? Is there no radical method, routine. Tile capacity tor making laws is neces- no force yet untried, a power not only of skillful sarily assumed when women are permitted to hold checks which I do not undervalue,but of controlling and manage property and to submit to taxation. character. Mr. Chairman, if we sat in this chamHow often the woman, widowed or married or sin- ber with closed windows until the air became gle, is the guiding genius of the family-educat- thick and fetid, should we not be fools if we ing the children, directing the estate, originiatillg, brought in deodorizers-if we sprinkled chloride counseling, deciding. Is there anything essentially of lime and burned asafetida, while we disdained different in such duties and the powers necessary the great purifier? If we would cleanse the foul to perform them from the functions of legislation? clamlber, let us throw the windows wide open and In New Jersey the Constitution of 1776 admitted the sweet summer air would sweep all impurity to vote all inhabitants of a certain age, resi- away and fill our lungs with fresher life. If we' dence and property. In 1797, in an act would purge politics let us turn upon them the great to regulate elections, the ninth section provides: stream of the purest human influence we know. " Every voter shall openly and in full view, deliver But I hear some one say, if they vote they must his or her ballot, which shall be a single written do military duty. Undoubtedly, when a nation ticket, containing the names of the persons for goes to war, it may riglhtfully claim the service whom lie or she votes." An old citizen of New of all its citizens, men and women. But the Jersey says that "the right was recognized and question of fighting is not the blow merely, but very little said or thought about it in any way." its quality and persistence. The important point But in 1807 the suffrage was restricted to white is, to rhake the blow effective. Did any brave male adult citizens of a certain age, residence and Englishlman who rode into the jaws of death at property, and in 1844 the property qualification Balaklava, serve England on the field more truly was abolished. At the hearing before the com- than Florence Nightingale? That which sustains mittee, the other evening, a gentleman asked and serves and repairs the physical force, is just whether the clhango of the qualification excluding as essential as the force itself. Thus the law, in women did not show tlat their volinig was view of the moral service they are supposed to found to be inc nvenient or undesirable. Not render, excuses clergymen fiomn tihe field, and in at all. It merely showed that the male prop- the field it details ten per cent of the army to erty holders outvoted the female. It certaiInly serve the rest, and they do not carry muskets showed nothing as to the right or expediency nor fight. Women, as citizens, have always of the voting of women. Mr. Douglas as I said, done and always will do that work in tihe had a theory that the white male adult squat- public defense for which their sex peculiarly ters in a territory might decide whether the fits them, and men do no more. Tile care colored people in the territory should be enslaved. of the young warriors, the nameless and innuThey rright, indeed, so decide, and with adequate merable duties of the hospital and home, are power. they might enforce their decision. But it just as essential to tle national safety as fighting proved very little as to the right, the expediency in the field. A nation of men alone could not or the constitutionality of slavery in a territory. carry on a contest any longe" than a nation of The truth is that men deal with the practical women. Each would be obliged to divide its question of female suffrage to suit their own pur- forces and delegate half to the duties of the other poses. About twenty-five years ago the sex. But while the physical services of war are Canadian government by statute rigorously equally divided, between the sexes, the moral and in terms forbade women to vote. But forces are stronger with women. It was the in 1850, to subserve a sectarian purpose women of the south, we are constantly and doubtthey were permitted to vote for school trustees. less very truly told, who sustained the rebellion, I am ashamed to argue a point so plain. What and certainly without the women of the north tlih public affairs need in this State is "conscience," government had not been saved. From the first mOand woman is the conscience of the race. If we ment to the last. in all the roaring cities, in the rein this Convention shall make a wise Constitution, mote valleys, in thb deep woods, on the country hill if tile Legislatures that follow us in this chamber sides, on the open prairie, wherever there were shall purify the laws and see that they are hon- wives, mothers, sisters, lovers, there were the busy estly executed, it will be just in the degree that fingers which, by day and night, for four lonk we shall have accustomed ourselves to the refined, years, like the great forces of spring time and moral and mental atmosphere in wlich women harvest, never failed. The mother paused only habitually converse. But would you, seriously, I am to bless her sons, eager for the battle; the wife asked, would you drag women down into the mire to kiss her children's father, as he went; the sisof politics? No, sir, I would have them lift us out ter smiled upon the brother, and prayed for the of it. The duty of this Convention is to devise means lover who marched away. Out of how many for the purification of tile government of this hundreds of thousands of homes and hearts they State Now tile science of government is not an went who never returned; but these homes were ignoble science, and the practice of politics is not both the inspiration and the consolation of the necessarily mean and degrading. If thle field. They nerved the arm that struck for making and administering of law has become so them. When the son, and the husband, fell corrupt as to justify calling politics filthy, and a in the wild storm of battle, the brave womafi thing witl which no clean hands can meddle heart broke in silence, but the busy fingers without danger, may we may not wisely remem- did not falter. When the comely brother ber aa we begin our work of purification, that and lover were tortured into idiocy and despar 372 that woman heart of love kept the man's faith only forty votes against the policy of Pitt. The steady, and her unceasing toil repaired his wasted dawn in England will soon be day here. Before frame. It was not love of the soldier only, the American principle of equal rights, barrier great as that was, it was knowledge of the cause. after barrier in the path of huml,, progress falls. It was that supreme moral force operating If we are still far from its full comprelension and through innumerable channels, like the sunshille further from perfect conformity to its law, it is in in nature, without which successful war would that only like the spirit Christianity to whose full have been impossible. There are thousands and gloryeven Christendon but slowly approaches. thousands of these women who ask for a voice in From the heat and tumult of our politics we can still the government they have so defended. Shall we lift our eyes to the eternal light of that prillciple; refuse them? I appeal again to my honorable can see that the usurpation of sex is the last form friend the chairman of the committee. He has of caste that lingers in our society; thatin Amermade the land ring with his cry of universal suf- ica the most humane thinker is the most practical frage and universal amnesty. Suffrage and am- man, and the organizer of justice the most saga-:nesty to whom? To those who sought to smother cious statesman. the government in the blood of its noblest citi- Mr. GOULD -Mr. Chairmanzeus, to those wllo ruined the happy homes and Mr. RATH BUN —I rise to a point of order. broke the faithful hearts of which I spoke. Sir, I believe tlat our rules provide that members I am not condemning his cry. I am shall not speak more than once on any question not opposing his policy, I have no so long as any otler member may desire the floor. more thirst for vengeance than he and quite The CHAIRMAN - In the opinion of the Clair as anxiously as my honorable friend, do I wish to the point of order is not well taken, as the rule see the harvests of peace waving over the battle applies to each amendment, and the gentleman fields. But, sir, here is a New York mother who from Columbia [Mr. Gould] has not spoken on the trained her son in fidelity to God and to his pending amedmrent. country. When that country called, they an- Mr. GOULD-The pleasure with which I have swered. Mother and son gave, each after his listened to the remarks of the gentleman from kind, their whole service to defend her. By the Richmond, [Mr. Curtis] has been shared by a masad fate of war the boy is thrown into the ghastly jority of the members of the Convention. The den at Andersonville. Mad witl thirst he crawls argument of the gentleman has been polislied in the pitiless sun toward a muddy pool. He from the foundation stone to the topmost dome; reaches the dead-line, and is slot by the guard - it has glowed, sir, like a crystal pllace, with the murdered for fidelity to his country. - " I demand most gorgeous prismatic liles, but like a crystal amnesty for that guard, I demand that he slall palace, it will be found to be as frangible as the vote," cries the honorable chairman of the con- crystal. He stated, sir, in tile commencement xittee. I do not say that it is an unwise demand. that lie did not care to inquiire into the musty orBut I ask him, I ask you, sir, I ask every igin of human rights. I, for my part, desire to anhonorable and patriotic men in this State, chor my opinions upon tile sure aiid solid foutdaupon what conceivable grounds of justice, expe- tion of all rights and of all privileges whatever. diency or common sense shall we give the ballot I assume, sir, that the origin of all rights is God, to the New York boy's murderer and refuse it to lwho created man. IIe, at the very moment of his mother? I have thus stated wlat I conceive creation established certain laws which should to be tile essential reasonableness of the amend- govern tlem. wllich sholld establsh all tleir ment which I have offered. It is not good for rights, and all tleir relations. There is sir, a lex man to be alone, united with woman in the crea- scripta and a lex non scripta, and eacll is of as tion of human society; their riglhts and interests binding obligation as tlle other. How do we find, in its government are identical, nor can the sir, this unwritten law? We find it. sir, because the highest,and truest development of society be law of God is perfect, and if we find that there is reasonably conceived, so long as one sex assumes any certain set of rules governing tlle relations of to prescribe limits to the scope and functions of men with each other, which, through all time the other. Tile test of civilization is the position and on all occasions work advantageously, we of women. Where they are wholly slaves, man is may know with absolute certainty, tlat wholly barbarous; and the measure of progress those rules are consistent with the laws from barbarism to civilization is the recognition of of God. I may stand here, sir, among tlle their equal riglt with man to an unconstrained Gentlemen with wlom I am associated in this development. Therefore when Mr. Mill unrolls his Convention, and if I observe with the most perpetition in Parliament to secure the political equal- fect fidelity those rules wlich God has created, to ityof women, it bears the names of those Engllshl regulate my intercourse with my fellow men, I men and women whose thoughts foretell tle shall find a place in every lieart here, and the course of civilization. The measure whlich the longer we remain together, the more dear I will report of tire committee declares to be radically become to every heart; but, sir, if I transgress revolutionary, and perilous to the very func- those laws which God hlas thus establislled, I, tions of sex, is described by the most sagaci- should soon be an offense in the nostrils of every ous of living political philosophers as member. Now, sir, when man comes into the world reaonable, conservative, necessary and inevi- and stands alone, Iis right undoubtedly is to do table; and he obtains for it 73 votes in the as le pleases in everyrespect; but, sir, as soonas same House in which out of about the same ire enters into society, those riuhits wlic were wliule number of voters Charles James Fox, the perfect before, become imperfect rights; they -dol of the British Whigs, used to be able to rally become modified at once by his relations with. t 373 society. God is as much the author of society which while he was thus boasting, was silently as he is the author of the individual; the laws undermining the foundations of his throne, and which he has given for the regulation of society that tllat destroying power culminated in tlre death are absolutely as binding as tlhe laws which he of Louis XVI? Did you not then find that the has given to individuals; the rights of society are sovereignty existed in the people of France? So precisely as sacred as tlhe riglits of individuals. it is with Russia, sir; there is a power superior Sir, when man comes into society it is obvious even to the sovereign of Russia; it expresses that tlhat lie cannot do as lie pleases, because if lie power through public opinion, masked as it may pleases to do tllat wliich is contrary to what be, and still oftener does it express its power by anotler man pleases to do, at once tlere arises a the poniard or by tile poison. Try as you will, conflict of those rights, and one or the other must sir, tllere is no sort of sovereignty to be found give way, or some superior power must decide but in the people, and tliere sir, the analysis wliichl shall give way. Sir. when this question fails. You may apply these, and similar tests arises, when this conflict of riglits is observed, and it is always found that there is no power there must be evidently some common superior to beyond them-no power above or beneath them. decide which shall give way, and that common We have then got the sovereignty, we have got superior is tie sovereign What is sovereignty, sir? the power which determines in contests between By what mark is sovereignty ascertained? Sir, individuals. But, sir, when we have found the whatever power in a given independent comnmu- sovereign power, we find it is comprised in the nity is habitually obeyed by the great mass of tlie wlhole mass of thle community; of the men, of the people, but whicl in its turn, obeys no otlier women, of the lunatics, of the idiots, of tle infants, power wliatever, is the sovereign power; and -every class of society go to nake up the mass wherever we shall find it, there it is. Let us test of sovereignty. But, this sovereignty cannot this tliing, sir. Suppose it is asserted tlat tle express itself; it has no power to give exsovereign power in tlhe State of New York is il pression to its feelings, or its beliests-there the Governor and the Legislature, a very trifling are certain classes of it whicl are physically analysis will show us tlat we are mistaken incapable of expressing that sovereignty. The in thus locating the sovereign power of the infants are incapable of expressing the sovereign State of New York. If you go to the Governor will; we must here cut tlem off from this exof this State, and ask for an office, or if you asked pression; we must distinguish between a vote and it in the days of the old "Albany Regency," the;n influence-between an influence in tlhe soverGovernor might promise yon, as the Governors ill eignty and a vote in the exercise of the sovereignty. those days did promise repeatedly, tlat you should Sir, tile infant does exercise power. Ifyou attempt have the office you desired; but, sir, when to interfere with the rights of infants you will Edwin Croswell came in and told the Governor soon find from above, and from beneath that he had another person for that office, tlat and from all around, a secret and silent, but a it would be unwise for the Governor to make powerful influence constraining you. The the appointment lie had promised, did you cry of the infant is a power in tile State, not find the old democratic Governors give and although the infant may not vote, it exerway, and tlat the nominee of Edwin Croswell cises its power. mark that; the women of was appointed? Ili republican times, before the State do not vote, but do they not exercise tle breaking out of the war, lwhen a republican air influence, and a powerful influence? Suppose Governor lhas promised an office to a man, and tlhat any measure sllall be attempted to be passed Mr. Weed has told hlim it would never answer, by tlhe Legislature of this State, or by the Parliahave you not found the Governor give way,and that ment of Enlgland, which conflicts with tlie views Mr. Weed's nominee lias been appointed? Yet and feelings of tile women of New York neither of tlese men were sovereigns. When they or the women of England; do you not fell from their original faith. they were, like Samp- sulppose that they would find means of makson, sllorn of tleir strength, and tliere were none so ilg tlat powerful influence felt without a pooras todo tliem reverence. Well, sir, you go to vote. Sir, all history is replete with tlat iufluthe Legislature; you go from mall to man, and they ence-tle sovereignty of tihe woman exercised promise you tlleir vote, but tlhe leading politician without any vote. Do you not find it, sir, in the goes about among them and tells tllem they must history of France, that at times the mistresses of not vote in the manner they have promised. that lier kings have been tlhe real rulers of that nation? there will be destruction arising to the party from Have you not found that thle writings of women their voting in that direction, and they give way. here have strongly influenced tlhe expression of You find that tile powers which you suppose tlie sovereignty, so that without the vote they are tlhe sovereign powers of the State, are not have moulded public opinion? Certainly you not sovereign, because they themselves are gov- lave, sir. But then, with regard to the erned by some higher power, and, tllerefore. they votes, we must segregate from the mass are excluded from tlhe sovereiguity by tile detiui- of sovereignty a certain select mass to give tlon whicl I have given. So, sir, when you go the expression of that sovereignty. I conacross the Atlantic, and find the sovereigns, kings cur wholly with the gentleman from Oneida [Mr. and princes ruling there; when you go to the great T. W. Dwight]. I believe we must exclude preLouis XLV, who had the presumption to cisely those classes from the expression Of the declare l'Etat, cest moi-tlhat he was the sovereignty, if we would have the State safely State, that ho was the center and fountain governed. I would only add another class to those of all sovereignty and power, do you not which ho has enumerated; I would say that it find that thre vwas a power above him, there is any class in the community which would 374.be trulyinjured in their own persons, or property, called the civil law, the other the common law; or character by the exercise of the franchise, both of them have the advantage of having grown that class ought to be excluded. I would exclude out of the exigencies of humanity; both of them those who had an adverse interest to the interest are coherent systems; both of them rest upon of the people; I would exclude those who lack fundamental ideas. I say, sir, that those two intelligence, and by excluding that class I would systems, with regard to domestic relations, are perexclude the lunatic; I would exclude the idiot, and fectly coherent in themselves; but each of them in addition to those I would exclude any class proceeds upon very different fundamental ideas. which would be injured by the exercise of that Tle idea of the civil law, the law which had its franchise, and that sir, is the reason why I would origin in heathen times, and grows out of heathen exclude women from voting, because they would ideas, has for a central idea in connection with the be deeply injured in their characters, injured in domestic relations, the idea of partnership. The their feelings, injured in that which is most pre- marriage relation, according to that law, is simply cious to them, which they value as a pearl above all a partnersllip, just as Mr. Reynolds and Mr. Harprice. I would exclude women, sir, because ris are partners in law in the city of Albany, and they themselves desire the exclusion. And how do just as iMr. Corning and Mr. Winslow are partners I know that they desire that exclusion, sir? Well, in the iron trade in the city of Albany. The reisir, I stand here as a witness. My wife and my lation of husband and wife under the civil law is daughters, sir, who I know best, are wholly op- precisely that of Messrs. Corning and Winslow or posed to women voting. They say to me that they Messrs. Reynolds and Harris, under the common would lose by voting that which is most precious law, no higher and no deeper. The partnership to them, they would lose their delicacy, would in the one case has for its interest the care and lose all that is most feminine within them, they rearing of children; in the other case it has the would lose all that which enables them to exercise manufacture of iron; but their relations are prethe transcendent influence which I have shown cisely the same. Under the civil law the husllas been exercised by women in all time. and band frequently sues the wife. and the wife the which has been so exceedingly beneficent in its in- husband; the wife is in one business and the husfluence. Sir, I presume that I am acquainted with band in the other, and suits at law are not nncomas large a number of examples of intelligent mon; and wlen they are brought before the womanhood of New York, as most gentlemen in courts the husband may testify in regard to the this chamber, and I can say, sir, as a witness be- business of the wife, and the wife may testify in fore this Convention, that in the whole circle of regard to the business of the husband. Accordmy female acquaintance, I can remember but a ingly, under that law, secrets wlich the husband single individual who desires the vote for females. has reposed in the bosom of his wife may be And sir, she does not desire it; she is willing to drawn out by process of law. Husband and wife assume it as a burden. In conversation with her may have separate property, they may have sepshe said that she abhorred the idea of entering arate interests of every kind. Sir, it is impossible into the political field; but if it was her duty as a that such a system of law should not react woman to exercise the right of suffrage, she would upon the character of woman; that it should b2 willing to assume it. She did not desireit, sir; not react upon the character of children; and she was only willing to suffer it. I have con- that it should not react upon the character of the yersed with many gentlemen who are members of whole population. The character of the whole this Convention, and they have assured me that population must have a certain definite relation to their experienceis precisely parallelwith my own; the fundamental idea under which the law was and I ask every gentleman here to answer that established. But the fundamental idea of the question, whether, within the extent of his female common law wlhicl grew up tinder Christian ausacquaintance, embracing the purest womanhood [ices, is radically different. That idea has been bf New York, he does not find that they are almost expressed by the gentleman from Richmond [Mr. unanimous in rejecting the proffered franchise. If Curtis] as the idea of coverture; the wife loses this, sir, is so, if the genuine womanhood of New her separate identity, and they two togetler beYork, are opposed to assuming the burden of the come one compound being, which is expressed by elective franchise, if those whom we most love the name of husband; she is supposed to be conand most revere, our mothers, cur wives, our sis- cealed from thle world; the husband is seen and ters, and our daughters, are opposed to it, I say not herself. In perfect accordance with this fintlat we have no right to urge this thing upon damental theory, are all the provisions of the them. Sir, the very last lady who drank tea common law. The common law prohibits the at my house before I came here, was the wife judge from drawing out by legal process, the seof a judge of the supreme court of New York. crets wlich have been reposed in the bosom of and as she pressed my hland in takingleave ot me. the wife by the husband; slhe cannot testify she said "sir, I beseech you, whatever you may against her husband; she therefore has no do in tlie Convention about to assemble, that you separate interests apart from ler hulsband, her will not impose the elective franchise upon us." property is his property, and his property is Sir, that has been the expression of nearly every ler propelty. The property is owned by the woman with whom I have come ill contact. Let compound being which lIas been estahlislled under us inquire loe a moment whthler these ladies en- the operation of the common law. If the nustertain this view erroneously. or whether they band and wife go into a store and the wife steals entertain it on grounds which can be based on in the presence of her husband, the law charges reason and on justice. There are two systems of the theft upon the lhusband and not upon the wife; law known in the civilized world;. the one is the law looks upon the husband as guilty and. 375 not tlhe wife. Everything in the law is harmoniously arrlanged to mike the interests of the parties identtial. Sir, which would you suppose would operate most beneficially; the idea of coverture, or the idea of partnership, the idea of an absolute identity of interest, or the idea of an absolute dilfercnce of interest, and from what you kuo-w of the law wllich regulates humanity, wo:ld you not suppose that a common interest woulld lead to more harmony than different interests would? Certainly, sir, this is the case. and it lias been fouind, on a comparison of tle statistics of nations governed by the common law, and those governed by the civil law, that there is infinitely more happiness, more peace. more virtue growing out of the operations of the common law than is found under those of the civil law. The civil law obtains in France, and you know what Parisian women are; you know what the results of Parisian society are; you know how children grow up there degraded and miserable. It is true that where the civil law exists the Catholic religion obtains and divorces a vinculo et matrimonii are rare; but divorces a mensa et thoro are very common, and infinitely more numerous than in countries governed by th.l common law. Sir, what does the gentleman from Riclmond [Mr. Curtis] propose? He proposes to engraft the principles of the civil law upon the common law in this State. The other day wlen Mrs. Stanton addressed us she told us that twenty years ago, men began for the first time to do justice to women. What did man do twenty years ago? What did the Legislature of this State and of other States do twenty years ago? They began to adopt the principles of the civil law and engraft them on the common law; they began to make a difference between the interests of hutsband and wife; tney began to invest her witl the right of testifying; with the right of holding separate property; and with the right of making wills against her husband's consent. All these things were commnenced at that time, and they have been gradually increasing Jown to the present day. The gentleman fiom Richmond [Mr. Curtis] wants us to go a long step in advance, and still further to make a disruption in our social institutions. That lady when the question was asked her. said that from the very commencement of this clange the claracter of the woman had been gradually improving. Sir, I want to relate a fact which is within my own personal knowledge. Twenty years ago the proportion of female criminals to male criminals in the State of New York, was as twelve to one; there were twelve men in our common jails at that time where there was one woman: and in the Tombs of the city of New York. there were six men to one woman. Sir, during all that time in which thle claracter of woman has been "progressing" what has been the result? Tn 1865 I visited every jail in the State of New York, and what was the proportion of women to men in our jails at that time? Taking the whle State togetller, the ratio was as four to one. It had been reduced from twelve to one to four to one; and in the Tombs in the City of New York that year, there had been upwards of sixteen hundred more women committed than tlere had been men. The women were absolutely it eicess' — Mr. KINNEY-I would like to make an inquiry of the gentleman [Mr. Gould]. I would like to know, when lie states there were twelve males to one female in the State prisons, if lie has reference to the State prisons or tle county jails? Mr. GOULD-1 am speaking of the common jails; a much better illustration of the general action of society than the State prisons would be. Precisely the same thing was found in Raymond street jail in Brooklyn. where there had been upwards of nine hundred more women committed to the jail than there had been men. That, sir, is an illustration of Mrs. Stanton's improvement. That, sir, is the result of this engrafting the principles of the civil law, on to the principles of the common law Let me ask this Convention to pause before they extend the engrafting of these principles further. I think that the facts, which I have stated conclusively, vindicate the opinions of the ladies of whom I have been speaking. They show that the introduction of new causes of discord between men and women are calculated to destroy the sweetest sources of domestic felicity and domestic joy; that they poison the very well-springs of education, and make the tamily instead of being tlie best, one of the worst institutions for the education of the race. What sort of children will raise up when they see the father and mother, one being a republican and the other a democrat, constantly quarreling with each other with regard to political affairs, when they see the husband going about among his acquaintances, urging some and bribing others to vote his ticket, and the wife going around among her acquaintances, urging some and bribing others to vote her ticket. Can we contemplate such a scene as that without the most painful feelings of distress and horror? Can we expect that our republic will prosper when such a conflict is raging around the domestic hearth? Sir, I deprecate the idea. I object to the course of the gentleman from Richmond [Mr. Curtis] for another reason. A very large portion-larger than gentlemen generally suppose, of those who are now invested with the exercise of the franchise habitually abstain from its exercise at the polls. I look upon this as a great evil. I think tle duty of voting ought always to be annexed to the right to vote. Sir, for the last twenty yeirs the average number of those who have actually exercised the right of franchise at the polls has been only seventy-three per cent of the whole number who have the right to that privilege. Tlhe greatest propnsit:on that we have ever seen to vote in the State of New York, was in the year 1860, when niety-one per cent of those who were entitled to vote, absolutely exercised the franchise. In 1847 we had the smallest numher, when only fifty-three per cent exercised that right. Sir, in those terrible years, which many gentlemen recollect here, the years of the Jackson and Adams controversy, when party spirit ran so very high. and when good men were fearing that the result of that conflict would absolutely destroy the republic, the proportion of voters which exercised tle franchise was only fifty-seven per cent of the whole; notwithstanding the great amount of conflict which existed. What was the rea 376 son of that? It was during that time that the wise it will retain the long established Constituterm "unterrified democracy" and many other tion of our forefathers in this respect, which on of these cant terms were applied. The democrats the whole has worked so well, and they will not then were a "fighting democracy." The quiet, introduce any of these new fangled notions which tranquil people at the polls were frightened from are suggested by the gentleman from Richmond going' there, in consequence of the ferocity of the [Mr. Curtis], and by his coadjutors. conflicts that occurred there; and if my old friend, Mr. LARREMORlE-I did not suppose that this Thurlow Weed, never did another good thing in his question would find so earnest an advocate in this life he did it when here, in the Fourth Ward in Al- Convention. It was the general impression of bany, he went at the head of his own men, with his many of the members that the unanimous report hickory cudgel in his hand, and opened these polls of the very intelligent committee, to whom the that men might go there and vote; I say that is question of female suffrage had been referred, had the crowning jewel in his diadem. I think it is definitely settled the matter for the next twenty very clear that the great reason why a larger vote years at least. This conclusion, however, seems was not polled, and why there was so great a to have been premature. There is a buoyancy, conflict, so great a feeling of hostility between the an elasticity about this subject, so to speak, that respectable parties there, was that the minority will cause it to float and bound in our very midst felt that they were not honestly in the minority. until some decisive action is had by this body. It is They felt they did have a reserve force who would apparent now that we must vote upon it. If this vote with them, but who refused to go to the could be done in the ordinary way, no doubt we polls, simply because they were afraid to go there. should save much valuable time, but if, as has They did not wish to go through the conflict been intimated to me, the ayes and noes are to be and peril which was incident to voting at called on this question when final action is taken that period. Tile objection I have to the female in the Convention, it then becomes important that vote is precisely this, that the proportion of those we have an honest and intelligent record. Shall who would exercise the elective franchise in we answer the many respectfhl and forcible proportion to the whole number of votes would appeals to which we have listened, by a simple be greatly diminished. I know if you grant that but emphatic "No," without the courage or right, the great mass of the thoughtful and deli- the courtesy to give a reason why? Fcr one, cate women of New York will absolutely refuse [ am unwilling that my vote should be recordto exercise it. Instead of having seventy per ed, unless it be preceded by the motives that cent vote as now, you will not have over forty or prompt it. He is a brave man, indeed, who shall fifty per cent; it will be a great vote which will here record his unexplained denial of female sufbring out fifty per cent of tlie total mass of frage, and then venture within the charmed prevoters. The ladies in our kitchens will vote, but cincts of the opposite sex during the remaining the women in our parlors will never be found period of his natural life. This question comes there. I think conflicts will be generated before us invested with peculiar interest and imwhen men feel that they have not had a real portance. Withl interest, because it emanates from majority against them; when they feel that those with whom our most cherished sympathies those who have the right to exercise the elective are associated, and with importance, because it franchise have not expressed it there with them, involves the future welfare of society. It contemand who are not with the majority. I cannot plates such a radical change in the social world, conceive of anything which would have a greater as would shake it from center to circumference. tendency to introduce quarrels and conflict It has been said by an eminent jurist of tis State, into this government; of anything which that the most perfect human laws can claim no would have a greater tendency to destroy higher merit than that they have tollowed nature. it than precisely such a course as this. I Sir, we have heard a great deal about tile divine tlink the gentleman from Herkimer [Mr. Graves] origin of government, and let us take this proposed that the question should be determined as a starting point, and look for a moment at the by the women themselves. But, sir, an expres- divine economy oftliatgovernment from which man sion taken in that way would not be, by any has vainly attempted to model his own. Is tilere means, a true expression, therefore I am opposed not a peculiar distinctiveness and adaptation in all to his proposition for that very reason. Who tle laws that govern the natural world whether it would vote at a poll of that kind? Every pros- be'in tihe planetary system or in the world around titute in the city of New York would vote us. Every thing in nature animate or inanimate, there I Madam Restell, in her splendid and has each a separate and peculiar sphere. And gorgeous carriage coming from the slaughter of thie has not society inaugurated a system of rules that innocents would vote there; all the " pretty waiter follows out this analogy? Do we not here find girls" would be there. But could you get tle gradations. distinctions and characteristics that real women of New York to vote? No. sir, you have drawn plain land ineffaceable lines of separacould not drag them there witli log chains; you tion and exclusiveness. If this be true of individ. could not drive them there with a whip of scor. uals as a clss, is it not more than true as applied plans. So tile answer to a vote of that character to the sexes? Let us see. From tile creation of would be spurious and illegitimate; it would be the world to the present day, the divinely an ignis fataus; it would only lead it to constituted head and the divinely bestowed bewilder, to dazzle, to blind. For these helpmeet have pursued their earthly pilgrimn reasons I am opposed to female suffiage. age together in unity, yet in variety. From age I believe it is fraught with incalculable evils to to age, from one generation to another, they have the whole community; and if this Convention is come down to us one in reciprocal sympathy and 377 affection, yet separate and distinct in the pursuits series of indignities followed, which culminated in and activities of life. I need not enlarge upon th's the presentation, by his wife, of a meerschaum and subject, or strengthen it by comparisons to suggest paper of tobacco, accompanied with the suggestion the proposition at which I am arriving. I desire that while the government tax remained so high, merely, Mr. Chairman, to state my objections to he must not indulge in the luxury of smoking the amendment as proposed, In order that I may cigars. Was there a perfect equality of rights stand honestly and fairly upon the record when the there? One of the great objections to the exercise vote comes to be taken in the Convention. of this right by woman is oie that I think has been My first objection is that female suffrage is con- almost left untouched in the consideration of this trary to the instincts of our nature, and prejudicial subject by those who have addressed the comto all existing relations. I think it needs no argu- mittee, and that is that it is incompatible with the meat to prove that the respect and the sympathy domestic and social duties and relations. No one we entertain for woman is inherent and not de- will pretend to deny that woman has a work to per, pending on adventitious circumstances. It is form which is peculiar to herself, and of which we something that proceeds from within and does not can know but little except from actual results. come to us from without. It is not dependent But we do know that for its faithful accomplishupon position or worldly surroundings. It is a ment her undivided care and attention are needed part and parcel of our very existence. My next and required. The home circle, with its ever obiection is that it is unnecessary. The gentleman varying cares and responsibilities; the social from Richmond [Mr. Curtis], in the very gathering, with its many demands and exactions; eloquent address to which we all had the plea- the claims of humanity and benevolence; and sure of listening, made the assertion somewhat above all, the higher and holier duties of religion unqualifiedly, I think, that men were not wise -are work enough and to spare for her, whose life enouiigh or fit enough to legislate for women. Mr. has been consecrated and devoted to the service. Chairman, I refer you to our statute books, and But. sir, we are called upon to impose an additional you will see on them how liberally the people of burden upon her already over-tasked energy, to this State have legislated for women. I refer to bridge over the claims of woman's domestic and the married woman's act, so called, of 1848. and social life with the broad avenue of the political the act of 1862. I do not think lie can find a world, in which it is claimed she will find other solitary instance in which the rights of women and more enlarged opportunities of usefulness. have been prejudiced or jeopardized. How is it She, whose empire has ever been the household, when she appeals to the courts? How difficult who has been the magnet of its attraction, the is it to obtain a jury that will agree, in a source of its purity, is to be subjected to the concase where her rights are involved, and where laminating influences of the political arena. Let no they must pass upon them adversely. I think it one imagine that she can exercise this prerogaas susceptible of proof that man is quite as capable tive and yet preserve intact that delicacy of feelof passing laws for her protection as she would be, ing which is her peculiar charm. The right to vote and that the largest liberality has been evinced in implies, in her case, at least, a sufficient knowledge that respect. I am reminded in this connection, for its intelligent exercise. This is to be obtained of a little incident that came under my personal by associations with and communications from the observation, growing out of a passage of the law outer world, to which she is now comparatively a of 1848. to which I will refer, to show that woman stranger. She will then have received another invested with authority is not always so kind and incentive to action, and it is fair to presume from just as has been claimed for her by the gentleman past experience, that no effort on her part will from Richmond [Mr. Curtis] when she has the be wanting in the accomplishment of tne given opportunity to exercise it. I am happy to say object. Can this be done without sacrificing that the case is an exceptional one. A gentle- existing responsibilities? Are the excitements man who, by industry and economy. had amassed and agitations of the forum compatible with a sum of money, invested it in the purchase the wonted serenity of the fireside? Shall of lands and the erection of buildings thereon. the hours at home, heretofore sacred to the recifrom which h e might derive a permanent revenue procities of affection, be disturbed by the discussion for the support of his family. He was about to for instance, of the rival claims of the gentleman engage in some mercantile enterprise, and at the from Herkimer [Mr. Graves] or the gentleman suggestion of his wife the property was conveyed from Jefferson [MIr. Bickford]. Can we bar out to her in order that it might be saved to his party spirit from our houses When it has once family and himself in the event of any misfor- effected a lodgment in the hearts of their inmates? tune in business. The business terminated; lie Now we turn from the disturbing elements of politretired from it; he closed up his affairs and ical strife and find a sure repose beside the family was ready to spend his life in peace and hearth. But once channel this intervening comfortable independence. He then sought a space between home and the world, and reconveyance of the property, This was refused allow the restless tide of life's ocean to under the advice of the relatives of his wife. enter this hallowed retreat. its calm secuSome few years after, a child, the only issue of rity will have gone forever, and the refreshing marriage between them, died, and immediately and ennobling influences that once gave it beauty following that a brother of the wife was installed and attractiveness will be ours in memory only. as a sort of steward over the house to collect the It is said by those who support this theory that rents and disburse them. The husband was to refuse woman the ballot is to degrade her, obliged to go to his wife for the verv pocket money because it deprives her of an inalienable right. It he needed to meet his daily expenses. A long inalienable, then a natural right Buut whhen 48 378 did this right orginate? Is it coeval becomes, as it were, a part of the very atmoswith her existence, or was it derived from phere we breathe and ere we are aware, it lias laid legislative action? This question has been the foundation of our manhood. Yet, all this, so ably and so thoroughly discussed by eminent we are told is as nothing; that woman's ambition gentlemen on this floor, that I need only refer to is still unsatisfied; that she aspires to vote, and it and pass it over. I wish to state, however, that then, as a necessary consequence, to be voted for; the earnest advocate of female suffrage in En- to represent as well as to be represented. This gland, John Stuart Mill, in a speech, a copy of will be the inevitable result if the present rewhich has been laid on our table, is reported to striction upon suffrage be removed. He who have said, as follows: chooses to make woman an elector must be pre" I do not mean that the suffrage, or any other pared to welcome her among the elected. Does political function, is an abstract right, or that to not every instinct of our nature revolt at withhold it from any one, on sufficient grounds this? Let us be true to ourselves and to of expediency, is a personal wrong; it is an utter those we are here to represent in expressing our misunderstanding of the principle I maintain to unqualified disapprobation of the proposed confound this with it; my whole argument is one change. To use the language of the report: of expediency." The honorable gentleman from "An innovation so revolutionary and sweeping, Richmond has by his amendment taken a broader so openly at war with a distribution of duties and ground even than the great English liber- functions between the sexes." In doing this, we alist. But in what aspect of the case can shall have the fullest assurances that we have not the denial of this right to woman tend to trammeled or circumscribed woman's influence, degrade her? Does not the degradation rather but on the contrary have kept it from being consist in its exercise in a coming down by diverted from its legitimate source. We also Lave her from a superior height to the broad level of the satisfaction of knowing that those who have masculine equality? The honorable gentleman petitioned for this right constitute a very inconfrom Richmond refers to European history, and also siderable portion of the class to wl ich they belong. to the English government, under which woman They are not a tithe of the female population of may hold office, and where she may be Queen. the State, and as such can hardly be said to repYes, it is true, England may boast her solitary resent the wishes of the majority. Let us cultiQueen, but America reckons them by millions. vate and evince, if that be possible, a higher resIs it not a serious matter that woman should be pect for woman as she is, and the noble work in willing to surrender her present pre-eminent po- which she is engaged. Let our appreciation be of sition for to her, such an insignificant bauble as that discriminating character that shall readily the ballot? She may do it, acting under the delu- apply the test of true womanhood to its counter. sion that the act will not compromise her female feit. We shall thus lend our co-operation and delicacy or propriety. But she will find in the best enable her to fulfill her glorious destiny. The end a regret as well deserved as it is unavailing. claims of society will be fully satisfied and the Let her for once forsake her true sphere, and leave record of her life well spent, unmarred by spot or the orbit which the Great Artificer has designed blemish from the political world. for her, you will see her blaze and dazzle for a Mr. CONGER- It was my expectation, Mr. moment in the political horizon and then fall like a Chairman, to have presented to this committee at dead weight upon the body politic. We cannot an earlier day, some leading thoughts on the great violate the well-established usages of popular sen- subject which occupies its attention. I had hoped timent without incurring the penalty. It has that I might be able to show that this subject been said that woman is not represented in the could be raised above the range of partisanship, government. If this be so, then history is a fic- that it might be placed beyond the vortex of tion and our national character one of sponta- prejudice or passion, and that it might be neous growth. But who that is familiar with the viewed calmly and intelligently by the reprehistory of our government would for a moment as- sentatives of the sovereigns of the State of sent to such a proposition? Woman not represented New York. But I find, I seem to linger in the government I You will find the impress of upon the scene, coming so near the close of her influence in almost every department of it. this debate, and almost regret that I have ventured Need I refer to the period of the revolution and of to detain the committee at so late an hour, and the late rebellion, to see how she cherished and especially after I have listened, as no doubt all nurtured our patriotic zeal, and quickened the have listened,with such fixed attention to the scholspirit of freedom both in camp and council. arly effort of the gentleman from Richmond [Mr. The eloquent utterances, the soul-stirring ap- Curtis]. Itseems to me as if a voice intruding on peals, the sage advice, the self-denial, the the scene would tend to break the charmed circle sacrifice, the valor, all had their first germ of those winged words with which he urged his in some mothers' heart ere they were engrafted plea for the women of the land. Far be it from in the hearts of her sons. Woman not represented my purpose if I had the power to dispel the rapt in the government? She has daguerreotyped her and glorious charm which invested his effort. As a image and wishes in the heart of every rep- wreath rising in the early spring day ascends with resentative. She moulds the character of man ata quiet majesty until it reaches the upper air, so a time when it is most impressible and the fault is may the record of his brilliant words rise as it her own, if she does not fashion it to her purpose. were on the potent spell of his eloquence, until it Who can estimate the value of that influence that hears another laurel to his early and deserved fame. hovers over us with the dawn of intellect, giving Mr. Chairman, it is my purpose to view this subject ton and character to every thought and act, that as it is historically presented in the various 379 departments of political, moral and social residence, should divest the very right that rights. I may, perhaps, trench upon the domain was sought to be protected?-how could he of science or call in requisition what has been so divest by legal construction of this clause said in modern times to teach us what our duty to say nothing of his refusing the concurrent as humanitalians justly is. If the disquisition testimony and practice in this State from the shall be dry; if I shall summon to my aid some adoption of the Constitution to the present time? statistics drawn a few days since from the musty How could he has e ventured to tell to this Concensus of the State, I pray that the committee vention that it was the primary object of that will bear with me, and yield not only the courtesy section in the Constitution of 1846, to deprive with which I have been uniformily treated, but those very persons of the right to vote? If his the patience which will enable me and it to go logic was good for anything, where was the solthrough what otherwise might seem a labyrinthine dier, whose residence was not to be lost by his task. I view this question, sir, asa simple ques- voing forth in the defense of his country? tion of the denission of sovereignty, not its dilu- Where was the boy or the youth who had gone tion, as is sometimes said, to individuals of the to an academy or public school who, like same class nor as has been proposed the transpos- the public pauper was protected under this ing or confusion of the social sovereignty of this very article for the purpose, as it was clearly fair State with its political sovereignty, but I look expressed, of giving him his vote. Now, Mr. upon it as it must be viewed by the people, and Chairmanwill be presented on the final vote passed by Mr. CHESEBRO -With the permission of the this Convention, as a simple untrammeled at- gentleman from Rockland [Mr. CongerJ I would tempt to divest the sovereigns of the State of move that tle Convention take a recess until halfNew York of' the high and majestic function past seven o'clock. which they now possess. However others may The CIAIRMAN - The Ciair is of the opinion look upon the right of voting, I have never been that such a motion cannot be entertained in Cornable to view it in any other light than as the exer- mittee of the Whole. cise of the highest sovereignty known to human- Mr. E. BROOKS-I move that the comity, and I was somewhat surprised when I looked mittee do now rise, for the purpose of moving upon the report of the committee and examined in Convention for a recess until half-past seven the views presented by the majority as well as the o'clock. minority, to see with what sedlllous skill the effort M\r. CONGER —I will say in regard to the was made by the majority to add to the sovereignty motion, that I hold myself entirely at the disposiof a class of another blood, while a no less insidious tion of the gentlemen who are here present, but skill was displayed to take from,the sovereignty of that unless they desire a recess for their contllose who are flesh of their flesh and bone of their venience (as I ought to say in all frankness that I bone. I must say that I did not like altogether the shall take some time in my remarks) I will go on jesuitical effort of substituting one figure for ano- or will yield as shall be desired. ther (30 for 10) by which a large number ofcitizens Mr. E. BROOKS -Those gentlemen who who had trusted in the public faith of these United are present certainly would like to hear States for five years, were to find their trust, the argument of the gentleman, but would and their hope, like apples of Sodom, in like to avail themselves of a short recess when their mouths. I do not wish to criticise with members now absent will have returned. I will unkindness the effort as presented by the chair- make the motion that the committee do now rise.. man of that committee to accomplish what may The question was then put on the motion of seem, to some, to be a mere political result; but. Mr. E. Brooks, and it was declared carried. after all, there was this simple fact: the baton of Whereupon the committee rose and the Presihis skill was reversed when the sovereignty was dent resumed tile chair in Convention. to be given to the black man. But the same baton Mr. ALVORD from the Committee of the was presented as the arm of justice against Whole reported that the committee had had under those ufortlunate beings who, sharing with him- consideration the report of the Committee on the self' a few years back the riglt of sovereignty. Right of Suffrage and the Qualifications to Hold of tils State, were to be deprived of it, forsooth. Office, had made some progress therein, but not because by some infelicitous act of their own, some having gone through therewith had instructed peculiar unfortunate combination, they were no their Chairman to report that fact to the Convention louner able to provide for their own support during and ask leave to sit again. the few years that must elapse before they go to The question was then put on granting leave, their graves. Moreover, I beg leave to say,f could and it was declared carried. hardly understand how a gentleman of that com- On motion of Mr. E. BROOKS the Convention mittee who rose a few days since in support of took a recess until half-past seven o'clock. tile report of the majority, could have persuaded himself that this same result was essayed in EVENING SESSION. the Constitution of 1846. If you will remember, The Convention re-assembled at half past seven ius I thilk lie slid it was the purpose of that Con- o'clock. stitution to effect the exclusion of this very class. Mr. SILVESTER moved that the Convention Tile gentleman must have forgotten, it seems to adjourn. me. that that section from which he quoted, com- The question was put upon the motion of Mr. menced with these emphatic words, " for the pur- Silvester and it was declared to be lost. A division poses of voting." How then could he have pre- being called for it appeared that no quorum was tended that what followed, as regulating the present. 380 Mr. SHERMAN moved that the roll be called. The SECRETARY proceeded to call the roll, which also showed that there was no quorum present. Mr. ALVORD -I move that the officers of this Convention be directed; to proceed to the various hotels and desire members to appear in Convention. The PRESIDENT- The Chair would inform the gentleman that officers have already been sent in search of members. Mr. E. BROOKS-I move that the Convention now resolve itself into a Committee of the Whole on the report of the Committee on the Right of Suffrage. The PRESIDENT -It appearing that there is no quorum present, the Chair is of the opinion that the motion of the gentleman cannot be entertained. Mr. GOULD- I move that the Convention do now adjourn. The question was put on the motion of Mr. Gould, and it was declared lost. Mr. ALVORD -I now renew my motion in reference to directing officers to go in quest of delegates. Mr. E. BROOKS -I have no doubt, Mr. Chairman, that there will soon be a quorum present, and I think the Convention might as well resolve itself into a Committee of the Whole on the pending question. The PRESIDENT -The opinion of the Chair is that it cannot be done when it has been shown that there is no quorum present. Mr. E. BROOKS —I suppose if there is no objection the motion might be entertained. The PRESIDENT —The Chair hardly thinks that a unanimous consent would constitute a quorum. Later the following members were found to be present: Messrs. A. F. Allen, C. L. Allen, N. M. Allen. Alvord, Andrews, Archer, Armstrong, Axtell, Ballard, Barker, Barnard, Barto, Beadle, Beckwith, Bell, Bickford, E. Brooks, E. P. Brooks, E. A. Brown, W. C. Brown, Burrill, Case, Cheritree, Chesebro, Clark, Clinton, Cooke, Conger, Comstock, Corbett, Curtis, Daly, Develin, Duganne, C. C. Dwight, T. W. Dwight, Ely, Endress. Farnum, Flagler, Folger, Fowler, Frank, Fuller, Fulerton, Goodrich, Gould, Grant, Graves, Greeley, Hadley, Hale, Hammond Harris. Houston, Huntington, Hutchins, Jarvis, Kernan, Ketcham, Kinney, Krum, Landou, Lapham, Larremore, A. Lawrence, M. H. Lawrence, Lee, Livingston, Lowrey, Ludmugton, Masten, Mattice, McDonald, Merrill, Merwin, Monell, Murphy, Paige, Pond, Potter, President, Prindle, Prosser, Rathbun, Reynolds, Rolfe, Root, Rumsey, A. D. Russell, L: W. Russell, Seaver, Seymour, Sherman, Silvester, Smith, Stratton, Tappan, M. I. Townsend, S. Townsend, Tucker, Van Campen, Verplanck, Wales, Wakeman, Weed, Young. A quorum being present, the Convention resolved itself into the Committee of the Whole on the report of a Committee on the Right of Suffrage and the Qualifications to Hold Office; Mr. ALVORD of Onondag, in the Chair. The Chairman announced the question to be on the amendment of the gentleman from Richmond [Mr. Curtis] to the amendnent of the gentleman from Cavusa rMr. C. C. Dwight]. Mr. CONGER —Mr. Chairman, it the report of the majority of this committee to the Convention should receive its approbation, the application of the test of property as a qualitication, in one case, to enfranchise a very small portion of the inhabitants of this State, and its application in another direction, for the purpose of disfranchising a very large portion of those who have been associated with us in the majesty of this franchise; if this report I say, should receive the sanction of this Convention, it would be useless hereafter to advert to the cruelties resulting from tile antagonism of races; for such cruelty as this, would be felt and acknowledged by all the civilized world as the remorseless blade of the political guillotine falls, to be without a parallel in the history of a race that makes liberty and enfranchisement its boast and its protection. I turn, however, with great pleasure to the report of the minority of the committee, not for the purpose of examining all the recommendations it contains; but because it affords to the Convention a note of warning against the ruthless assault to be prosecuted upon the liberties of the people. That report speaks to you of the vote tlat was taken in 1846 and again in 1860, and it very quietly yet emphatically gives you the statement of that vote and the majority by which the sovereign people of this State expressed themselves as unwilling to change their ancient institutions. I have thought it was desirable in order to justify the action of this State at that time, that I should pass in calm review, what that action was, and for this purpose I first propose to you to-night, to ascertain the true numerical value of the vote which was then taken. You do not get the expression of the will of the people from a mere statement of the vote had, because it appears by the 'comparison of that vote, with other votes, that all the electors did not see fit to exercise their right to the franchise, upon that question. According to the report the vote in 1846 upon the question of negro suffrage, stands: in favor of it 85,306; against it 223,834; making a total vote of 309,140; the majority against negro suffrage being 138,528. At the same time the whole Constitution as proposed by the Convention of 1846, was presented to the people. The vote in favor of it was 221,528; against it 92,446; making a total of 313,974, nearly five thousand more than the total vote on the question of extending the suffrage, while the majority by which the Constitution was adopted was 129,082. At the same time the people of this State exercised their franchise on a question which is more generally supposed to express the popular will, and on the gubernatorial vote you find tlat Governor Silas Wright received 187,306, while his then competitors, Young, Bradley and O, den Edwards, received a total vote against him of 218,027. The total vote on the gubernatorial question was 405,333. Suppose we concede that the whole of that vote, which was cast il favor of negro suffrage, was a vote to be taken out of that column which supported Young, Bradley and Edwards, repre 381 senting what was known as the Whig and Anti- the measure proposed. I have no deshe at Slavery party; then if we take that whole all in stating thus much and in this wise, vote and subtract from it the entire vote in to take by surprise, or cajole by figures the favor of negro suffrage, you have left 132,721, votes and opinions of the gentlemen of the cornexpressing the Wlig vote of the State at mittee; but it appears to me that a candid review of that time, non-concurring in the right of negro these figures must teach them a lesson of prudence, suffrage. If you take the whole vote which which I think is a wise and necessary part of was given on the question of this suffrage from statesmanship. I remember how, in the years the whole vote which was given on the guber- gone by, on a question exciting the public mind natorial question, and suppose that the balance from one end of this country to the other, a expresses the indifference. or the non-concur- distinguished chief, then President of the United,rence, as a vote of non-liquet. you may say States.urged upon his friends in Congress the settletlat one-half of that ditlerence might be added ment of that question.not for the purpose of preventto tile Whig vote of non-concurrence, in order ing any expression, but to avoid the necessity of to give a good test of the actual Whig vote resort to any expression on the part of the people that refused to concur on the questiou of negro of tie country, as either against it or in favor of suffrage. But it, on the other hand. you prefer it; I remember, too, that policy was fatal to his to obtain tile whole vote non-concurring, take the own party, resulting in the reaction of the people whole Whig vote as against negro suffrage and of tile country as against the question of add that to tile entire vote given on the democratic policy, which they had theretofore approved, printicket, which supposes, by the bye that not a cipally on this ground-that they had not been single democrat cast a vote in favor of extending Ionsulted, that their views had been anticipated that sovereignty, you have a total of 320,027, in a way which did not suit them. When I go which represents tie number of those who further back in tile history of this country, I were positively against or non-concurring in remember one whom we all regarded as the the extension of tile elective franchise. You wisest man of his day, one of the sagest chiefs will perceive, Mr. Chairman, some one might of any party, who on a similar question, instead of urge tile same objection as to ascertaining urging his friends in Congress, who were in the what was the true preponderating vote of the majority. to support his impeachment of the course people of tile State upon tile subject of the Con- of the United States Bank, quietly told them to go stitution itself. Even if that were so, we have home and take the voice of the people in regard light upon tils question from tile vote taken in to it. I see tile superior sagacity of Andrew 1860. That vote is far more intelligent and a far Jackson, and I am disposed to regard it as more definite and comnmaiding expression of the a fundamental principle in the policy of this will of the people. I will proceed to give you country, that it is never wise on a question that vote. For negro suffrage the vote in of grave importance to undertake to antici1860 was 197,503; against it 337,984, mak. pate the decision of the people. I never was ing a total vote of 535,487. At the same more surprised in my life, when in conversing time the vote was taken by which Governor Morgan with one of the old and tried champions of the reached the gubernatorial chair, with a majority of' democratic party, a man who had attained a high over seventy thousand; the vote in his favor was celebrity in this State and held the highest post as 388,272; the vote for his opponents was 314,653, a jurist in this land, he confessed that he making a total vote for tile gubernatorial ticket felt such indignation in view of the attempt of 702.925. If you take from the total Republi- to forestall the expression of the people of can vote given for Governor Morgan of 388,272. this country, on a question of so great pith the vote that was given for negro suffrage of and moment, that he lad thrown off the old 197,503. you have 190.769 as expressing the sen- ties, that bound him to the party of his youth, timent of the Republican voters of the State, and went against it, in the expression of the now concurring in the measure. If you add indignation be felt at such a policy. I am disto that, the total vote of the Democratic posed. sir, for one, to take this as the lesson of party (for it is conceded in this computation, experience and prudence. Whether it affects or that the whole vote which was given for negro d3termines the action of any other gentleman in suffrage was a republican vote, and the total this committee, it must determine mine. I am vote against it was democratic); I say if you add not willing to go to the people of this State after to this difference the vote given by the opponents I have computed what was the sum total of their of Gov. Morgan, you have 505,422, as expressive vote, of indifference or opposition to this measure, of the vote of the people of the State of New as sone 560,000; I am not willing to assume a York, as positively against, or non-concurring in. responsibility as their representative to say to the question of negro suffrage. Now, sir, the them: "This is a question we will not submit to census of the State tells us that at that election, you, in your independent sovereignty, as a sepaonly a fraction over ninety-one per cent of the rate question. You must take it as we make it, whole vote of the State was given on the guber- you must take the whole matter as we send it natorial ticket; so that you may add by way of cor- down to you, or you must do without anything." rection of this estimate, something like nine per Sir, I have but one opinion —that the indepencent on the total vote, which amounts to 63,263, dent yeomanry, the sovereign electors of the State and you have a stlm total of 568,685, expressive of New York will rise in indignant majesty of the vote of the people of the State of New and turn upon the men who undertake to trifle tYork in 1860, against this question of negro suf- with their sovereignty, and say to us: "You frage, or the vote of the people non-concurring in have exceeded your trust, and we turn upon 382 you as men'who have be6en faithleis" to it." we have fallen in these later times upon the best Therefore, Mr. Chairman, I think I am wise, or if and most glorious days of' the republic. Accepting not wise, I am at least prudent, in taking the the position as if it were true, pray, I ask you, teachings and admonitions of the past, which if it did he or any one else, tell us the particulars in establishes any one rule as a great cardinal rule in which those days were better.or why they indicated administration, it is this rule above all others- any change of the opinion of the soverthat in a country where the people are sovereigns, eign electors of this State? 1 do not speak now it is not wise for their agents or representatives as one who goes beyond his ground, I am not to assume sovereignty. I tell you sir, the people speaking about tile opinions of the people of this State, much as they may be cajoled from of the United States. This is a question local to time to time, much as they may be mis- us. What we want to know is, what is the opinrepresented, much as they may be trifled ion of the sovereign electors of the State of New with, still appreciate above all things those York? Why, sir, if we listened attentively to great functions with which they nave never what has been said on this floor from time to time, parted, of the sovereignty of this land. If I we would believe that the people of this State, have succeeded in impressing the mind of any releasing themselves from all tile old traditions gentleman with the numerical value of the voice which have come down. not only from the period of.the people of this State, so lately expressed, I of the revolution, but from the days of tlhe first think I have but very little more to urge in defense settlement of this colony; that the people had of the course I shall adopt; when I say that the gone back and become advocates and disciples of more recent expression of the opinions of the the doctrines of natural riglits and the theory of people-the sovereign people of this State-is of tle " consent of the governed." When and much more value and much more suggestive to us where, Mr. Chairman. in the history of the State acting here as their representatives, than any of New York, did you ever hear, before this vote taken in the times that are past. They voted Convention (except, perhaps, in tlhe Convention upon the Constitution and the appendant query of 1821), a persistent and united advocacy of the presented to them in 1846; and fourteen years later doctrine of natural right? Did our forefathers, the second time, when the question of extending when they came to tins country come as the the suffrage to the negroes of the State was pre- exponents of and believers in, or the advocates sented to them, they voted against it. They stood of natural right? Tley came as humble citizens up like the barons of old in the presence of King of his majesty; they came as colonists, under his Johbn, "N Nolumus nos leges Angliiae mutari." The Iris protection; they came as citizens of the old institutions of New York are not to be changed I kingdoms, and they never aspired until tile And 1 think that is their candid and enduring days of the revolution to be anything else. They opinion at this time. Mr. Chairman. if I were came under the protection of settled laws, they able or worthy in my place to undertake to justify never talked about natural rights; and it was the action of the people of the State only when they were forced into revolution, that of New York-if it should fall upon me, they threw out the doctrine of natural right. who have had of late so little participation in they did not mean the natural right to go the councils of the people, and who can only hack and form society over again. No, sir, know what they say and what they mean, as one they meant merely the natural right, that when living far away and distant, and taking note more men were down trodden, they would rise in as one who observes from year to year, than from revolution. The doctrine of natural right is day to day, of the counsels of the people: if ii simply, as the gentleman from Broome [Mr. Hand] should fall to me this night to undertake to state said here, the doctrine of revolution. It is not to you the reasons which support and justify that the doctrine which marks either the progress, or action, I hope you will give ile a very candid and the hope of society. It is a doctrine which speaks a very impartial hearing, for I do not like-I tell of destruction to existing institutions I Away you the truth in all honesty-I do not like to be then, sir, with any such theory as the doctrine of forced into this position at so late an hour, to un- natural right I The people of this State never dertake to justify the traditional sentiments of the entertained that doctrine. It is only of late years, people of this State. I think that work ought to the doctrine has been proclaimed on our soil, by have fallen upon gentlemen representing tile ma- some teachers of false doctrines from Massachusetts jority of the people of this State; they ought to and the like, who have been floating around within be able to say what the traditional voice of New our sovereign bounds, who have told us that govYork is. If it has changed they ought to have ernmentis based upon natural right. So, too, some been able to have told us why, and how it has gentlemen will tell you that all government is changed; if they had any reasonable, any firm, based upon the consent of the governed. What a any sufficieut data upon which to base monstrous fallacy; what an abominable heresy any such opinions, they should have presented this is, in this age of the world. Why, Mr. Chairthem to this committee. But nothing of this man, when that lamented chief of your party, kind has been urged on this floor. I have failed- who registered that oath in Heaven, of which and I have listened with great patience-to catch you have a copy registered and on file here in this the first intimation of what is the ground of high court of the people (referring to the language change in the sentiment of the electors of this of President Lincoln, inscribed on a scroll on the State. My honorable and eloquent friend from walls of the Assembly Chamber) " I have the Columbia [Mr. Silvester] thinks those were not most solemn oath registered in Heaven, to the better days that were referred to by the gentle- preserve, protect, and defend the government." man from Rensselaer [Mr. Seymour], but he thinks When he went to take charge of tho government 383 which he wes commissioned to assume; when he holy trust thatwe have received from onr ancestors went to the city of Washington with one million This trust we must maintain in its purity: this of tle popular vote against him. had he tle consent trust we propose to exalt in its majesty:.we of the governed, in the way gentlemen talk to us cannot demit it." I am one of thosc. Mr. Chairof the consent of the governed, as a numerical man, who do not hesitate to say that government vote? Wllen the people of the South rose up in is ordained of God; that it is not an invention of rebellion, taking advantage of this nonsensical man, although a necessity for it exists, yet it doctrine, and said they would not submit to the has a higher and superior source for its authority. government wlile lie was at the head of And when I say that. I say it intelligently, for I it; what was the answer, what was the re- know that it is coupled with a sacred trust, spouse of the sovereign electors of the State and that those who received from a spiritual of New York? They said the consent power this trust of government, are boun.d to of tlhe people had been constitutionally ex- execute itin accordance with the terms of their pressed. They knew enough of law, plain law, trust. to know tlat a consent may be expressed or may Mr. M. I. TOWNSEND-I would like to ask be implied; that no man could stand up as a friend the gentleman [Mr. Conger] a question. Does the of order and of society, and say in that day, that gentleman consider it wrong to govern one's polithis government rests simply upon the consent of tical condilt by the word of God? thle governed represented by a numerical vote Mr. CONGER-If I thought that question was Why, what use is tile Constitution of this State if wortliy of a categorical answer, I would give these doctrines are to govern? We shall hiave a it; but I do not see Mr. Chairman, that that democracy fast verging on mobocracy. There is question is anything more than a delusion no such possibility of doctrine under a constitu- and a snare to the gentleman who puts it, tional government. Then we have another doc- for, if he has followed me in the argument trine. Another doctrine has been quoted on this I have given, I think I ought to have convinced floor, and I confess to you, believing in that doc- him by this time that lhe could not apply that trine and its right application, as I do. and accept- doctrine in the matter of any trust. Suppose he ing it as the rule of my life, I was pained to have has the trust of a few infants, and some one the doctrine enunciated by the Redeemer of man- comes along to him and says: " I plead this dockind, brought on to this floor as a cover of political trine of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, and I fallacies in government. We were told by a ask you to share that trust with me, because I am distinguished jurist on this floor, that we should a man and a brother." What is the answer the do unto others as we would that others gentleman gives? "This trust is mine, committed should do nnto us, and, therefore. that is the to me solemnly and I cannot demit it." I wish great reason why the people of the great State to place this trust which God has reposed in the of New York should demit their sovereignty sovereigns of the State of New York, where it is, to those who make application for it. Sir, on high and lofty ground, and I wish the soveris there any greater absurdity in this world eign electors of this State to act and execute that than to undertake to use the cardinal principle, trust in accordance with every doctrine which huthe plain and unvarnished doctrine of Christian manity, political morality, and sound policy ethics, and to make it play such a part as this, to demand. If I was standing on this floor to-night, work the destruction of society on questions sir. simply to advocate the doctrine of a party; within the political arena. Suppose the distin- if I was here as a nolitical doctrinaire to enunciate guished gentleman who broached that doctrine on some new thing, then I think I might be questhis floor should go with it to the other side of tioned; then I think it might be proper that you the Atlantic, and present himself before Her should sound the depths of my faith or the wisMajesty; suppose he should take that doctrine dom of that I announce. But I am here simply and set it like " apples of gold in pictures of to say to you to-night, what I believe the soversilver," or if lie wish to ornament it let him make eigns of New York believe, the doctrine they, each letter a burning gem till it glisten with a hold. If you question the grounds of their faith brilliancy beyond that of the Koh-i-noor, and pre- go to them. I am not responsible for the faith sent it to Her Majesty as an expression of his that is in them. I only propose to-night to give opinion as a political doctrinaire, and ask Her you just that which I accept and believe to be Majesty to share the sovereignty she holds from historically true; that the people have very high the people of Great Britain with him, on the basis and glorious conceptions of this function of sovof that doctrine, and by virtue of the force of ereignty. You can go to a man on the other that command, would he escape a straight —? side of the Atlantic, and he can talk to you But I hope Her Majesty would give him about the privilege of voting. but does that a very quiet and very candid answer-"This privilege of voting make him a sovereign? [trust which I hold I have received from When you come to this glmrious State of New my people, and I never can demit or share it." York, the man who puts his ballot in the box Then. sir, when the christian electors of the State knows lie is a sovereign by the grace of God, free of New York are brought in council here and it and independent. It is the sovereignty, sir, that is urged upon them on the fundamental doctrine is in him tlat I am here to interpret and vindicate, of Him whom they make their guide in religious and, I trust shall be able to do it. Now. then, matters, that they should slare their sovereignty Mr. Chairman, the people of the State of New in this matter with those who do not participate York are historically possessed of certain informain it, what is the proper and sufficient answer tion. They know certain things about these that these electors make? " This is a sacred and questions; they may not, all of them have their 384 knowledge from books; they may not, like the honorable gentleman [Mr. Curtis]. be read in Lord Coke, Blackstone, and with all the wisdomn of Story to back them; but the knowledge they have is traditional, they have got it from the fathers of the revolution; from the sages, the political guides of the people of this country in times that are past. They know what equality before the law means; they know that a man is equal before the law when he is entitled to the protection of the law; they know that the child is equal before the law; that the woman is equal before the law, and that now, the freedman is equal before the law. Equal in what way sir? Equal in his claim for the protection of his life, liberty and property; equally amenable on the other hand to the laws of his country, so that if he violates any of them, he has nothing to say, he is equal before the law. But there is nota gentleman in my audience that does not know that that equality before the law does not make him an equal participator with me in the sovereignty I enjoy. The people of the State of,Iew York also know that which their ancestors knew. that a man may come to a country and have a right of sojournment in it; that as a sojourner and guest of the country, he is entitled to certain respect and to the enjoyment of certain rights. Mr. Chairman. when we remember that this is a christian people; when we understand tlat these people know something of the Mosaic institutions; they know what it is to be a sojourner in a strange land; they know a man there may remain a sojourner from his birth to his death, and not acquire any rights in the country, except those conceded to himn by the laws of the land. The mere effect of sojournment in a strange land is not to make a man a citizen of that country. They also understand that the children and the wives the engrafted stock and the branches of their family have certain rights —rights in common with them as citizens of this fair land. They also know this doctrine, that there are two kinds of citizenship in this country; that two kinds of citizenship have always been known to men of the Anglo Saxon and Hibernian blood and lineage. There is a citizenship of him who is born free and entitled under the law only to certain privileges. and there is a citizenship of him who rbeng also born free, is yet one of the sovereigns of this land. Years ago, sir, in the early history of Great Britain there was but one sovereign; years ago there was no voice heard that Parliament was sovereign, and even now, altloughl you announce the doctrine of the sovereignty of Parliament, you know there is a power in that country that will check it. Much as England may boast of its institutions, all that can be said of it is. that it is a government of blended sovereignty; it is not an absolute monarchy, nor is it a pure republic like ours. There the sovereignty is divided; there is a partial sovereignty in the people, and a higher sovereignty in her who sits upon the throne. In this country we have no such doctrine. The free born electors of the State of New York are its sovereigns. They are sovereigns by the same right and title that her majesty claims to be the sovereign of Great Britain; their sovereignty comes to them by in. leritance and under law; but there is no one to share that sovereignty except tlose that they permit to share it with them. Tleir children may grow up to be heirs of this same glorious covenart with them, and those who may be invited to this land; and who go through certain requisites, may also share this sovereignty with them. But that you must remember is always on invitation of those who have it originally, extended to those who come here and embrace certain conditions. It does not come to the naturalized man as of right. it comes to him by covenant. The people of this State, therefore understand that there is a citizenship which means magistracy, judicial, executive, representative, and supreme magistracy. They know there is another kind of citizenship which merely means a right to an inheritance of that sovereignty when the time may come, according to the institutions of the country, a riglt to enjoy certain privileges of tlie land, and the people of the State of New York understand that by the organic law of this land. Need I say to you that this is recognized in the Constitution of the United States, the difference between the citizenship of the land and the political sovereignty in it. Why, sir, if they liad been one and the same wlen Congress passed the original provision that citizens of one State should be entitled to the privileges and immunities of another State, why did not they undertake to say who should vote and who should not, as the test of political sovereignty. You know perfectly well they did not dare to trench on the rights of the people of the States in regard to this question, but they simply adopted a rule that those who were entitled to vote for members of the lower House of a State, should have the same privilege to vote for members of the House of Representatives in Congress assembled. There is no conflict-no conflict was attempted. But the distinction is clearly maintained in the Constitution, and has been maintained unto this day. Does any gentleman ask me to detain him at this time to refer him to Blackstone for authority on this question? Must I go back to Aristotle, to show that in his day the clear distinction was recognized by him, that citizenship was divided; that there are two kinds of citizenship. Let us see what the Stagirite says very briefly, remembering that he, of all other men, that have written on this subject has given the highest definition of a republic-a deftnition which I wish in this day we could say we really enjoy: " A government administered by the people at large, but administered with justice; not oppressive to any class of citizens, but impartially consulting the good of all." Mr. M. I. TOWNSEND-Will the gentleman from Rockland [Mr. Conger], allow me to ask him a question? Mr. CONGER-Yes sir. Mr. M. I. TO WNSEND-I would ask the gentleman whether he believes it more becoming to quote Aristotle in this Convention, than to quote the sacred Scriptures? Mr. CONGER —I will leave the gentleman 385 from Rensselaer [Mr. M. I. Town~endj to answer is to be conceded to him superior advantage, his own question. I read from Aristotle as fol- both in the talent he possesses by nature, and lows: "There is nothing that more characterizes the mariner in which he applies it, yet. we a complete citizen than having a share in the may not receive his advocacy of any system to judicial and executive part of the government." destroy or tarnish a cardinal doctrine of society. Now, sir, there is an organic idea running down The doctrine of that slool is in direct antagonism fiom the earliest period of republican gox ernments. to the doctrine which the people have received, given to you by a manr that lived 350 years before and which they have been taught. And if the the Clristian era, and it has come down through all gentleman from Rensselaer [Mr. M. I. Townsend] time, permeating every country and every land will pardon me now for quotirn the doctrines wliere republican institutions have been es- they received from the Bible-there is nothing tablished and acknowledged. It is no new idea, it more clearly tamlht by that Bible, and there is is not an idea til;t tie people of this country crigi- nothing more clearly to be accepted by every reanated; it is an idea that they received as a conm- sorable man than this simple enun(ciation. that mon inheritance of llhumanity. and il. is an idea which society is not made lip of man. but is made ul of I trust will last ultil the list syllable of recorded families. Tlre family is the unit. tile monad of time. Now, Mr. Chairman, if I lhave made clear. society; and not mai. If there are any who what views the people of the State of New would question the divine authority of such a YorlZ entertainl on thie general question of sever- doctrine. or of the book in which the doclrine eignty and citizenship as connected witlh sover- may be traced. I ask him if he can conceive for a eignty. and tlle distinction that exists between that momert. societv as existing anywhere except in kind of citizenship and olier kinds of citizenship. connection with tile family. Was there ever I am prenared to draw your attention. very briefly. in tlhe pre-lhistoric periods. a supposable case to the question presented this afternoon. by tile where society existed made lip of man as gentleman from Richmond [Mlr. Curti.]. iri Iis a unit-ma, as a monad? No. sir, there is not a eloquent address. No man c;n appreciate more sentiment wiric we lave on the subject; there is highly than I do the beauty and tlre power of so not an intuition which we may derive from tile eloquent an argument. But, looking at it as a doctriles of revelation, or of tile law of necessity, work of art, I find it is subjected to some of those tlat does not concur in teachingr us these plain sim. conditions which always pertain to those works ple propositions-society is made up of families; which we class above others flor tile elegance in society tile family is the unit. Now, sir, if and power of their artistic expression. For it not that be true, is there any difficulty in receiving rarely happens in examinini a work of art tlie other doctrine that tile man is tile divinely you find that no little labor has been bestowed constituted head and representative of tilefamily? in some special direction, and in looking still fur- I know it is customary now-a-days to sneer at ther you find tlhat tile principal aim of tlre artist these doctrines, and I regret extremely to have has been to hide and cover up some defect, either a doctrine of such universal respect and authority original or newly discovered. I will not trouble with the people of this State, spoken of so lightly you with other instances, but you are aware that at some meetings which were informally held in not tunfreqiuently, when a jewel of great valiue is this hall some weeks ago: but I am convinced given to an artist, his great work, his chief aim of one thing. that the sovereign chrisis, in case there is some natural defect in it. tian people of this State regard that doctrine as far as possible by the beauty and skill as one of the corner stones of all modern of' his workmanship to lhide it. I would not society. So that on that questiou, if you concede venture, sir, in the presence of this committee, my premises, there is no difficulty in coming to my to undertake to break up or analyze, or, on the conclusion; if you concede the gentleman's preother, put together again so clever a work as mises, I think yor are bound to fo.low him to his tha!t of my honorable friend. All I ask is conclusion. If it be true that God made man and the privilege of casting a side light upon it, and woman and decreed that they twain sllolld be perhaps I can discover the flaw, altllourgh it has one flesh; if it be true as a philosophical proposibeen most artistically hid. Now. in regard to tle tion that man is not a perfect animal without argumrnent presented by the gentleman fiom Rich- woman, and that the one is the complement of the mond [,Mr. Curtis], there is this very plainly other, in order to represent the generic idea of to be said: If you admit that society is man in society; what is the use of recurring to based upon man as an individual; if the doctrine of natural rights in order to show you concur with the learned gentleman and the that woman has a natural existence in society disciples of his school, then you must concede independent of and anterior to this law. But all that follows fiom their premises. If you adopt some will say that the woman as an individthe philosophy of Condorcet, and his school, if you ual should be protected. Certainly. Is she take the French theory of man and society, I think not protected? They pretend to say that you must follow legitimately the deductions based under the common law some of her rights thereon, even to the verge of French libertinism. were very sedulously withheld from her, and I When the gentleman quoted to you this after- was astonished to perceive that no allusion had noon, the authority of tlhe distinguished Mill, been made in the whole discussion upon this sub* I should have been pleased if it was possible ject, as far as I could hear. to the authority that for him to say Mr. Mill was not a disciple of that had always been claimed for the court of chancery school. Why, sir, the authority of Mill's name in Great Britain and for the court of chancery in is no greater or higher authority than that this State. Where will you find a more perfet of the Westminster Review. Although there protection bf woman as married, in all her rights, 49 386 in every single particular, than you find in the court of chancery of this State? When you come to the law which was passed in 1848, and modified as I understand in 1860, can you say reasonably and with wise regard to the legal proposition, that woman is better protected now in her rights, and in her property, than she was under the decrees of the old court of chancery? Why sir, it has been said on this floor that it has come to this; that when a wife owns property, it is a sort of prima facie evidence that her husband is utterly worthless if not worse. And if that be so, then simply tlh wife under this modern legislation has been reduced to the sad and deplorable level of being a protection to her husband in his wrongs upon society. But admitting that some modern statute or some application of the civil law,' may have made some progress on the common law, which proposition I will not dispute; if it were a question presented to any father in this land, how he would protect his daughter in case she was likely to make an unfortunate marriage-would he be willing to throw her upon the rights secured by this modern statute, or would he not feel it to be an indisputable duty to protect her by the old fashioned form of a trust. Whether this be so or not-and I am not prepared to offer any authoritative opinion on this subject-has woman really gained anything Py the agitation of this question? And that leads me to this other question: Is she likely to gain anything in her real interest by the agitation of this other question? Has it ever been so in the history of society? Go back to those periods when the Roman matron made a positive effort to establish a right in the State as antagonistic to the right of the husband. Go back to the Augustine age, if you please, when the law, which I think was named Iex Pappia-Poppoea was established, which called upon certain men of the nobility of Rome and obliged them to marry women at an early age, in order that they might hold certain offices in the State. Was there any benefit gained either to the community, to the Empire or to the Roman matron? She was degraded by such a law as that —almost as low as the reluctant Senator who was frequently driven into marrying a child of four or five years of age. But not to detain you, sir, in other matters, the historian records that this was the commencement of the decline of good manners in that Empire, and that by slow and insensible but sure degrees, the Roman matron sank from her high estate, and although at that time a hen-pecked Senator had to go to propitiate the Goddess ViriPlaca, yet after all her fate was sealed by the very antagonism presented in the law of the land, as between herself and the marital race. I cannot hope for any good to result to the matrons of this land from a similar policy in legislation. To me, it is a revolting and I presume an abhorrent idea to most of the members of this Convention. If I were to talk seriously to any of those who have advocated this doctrine, not so much on this floor as elsewhlere, 1 would like to ask them this single question-whether, to their minds, the dignity of her who is known as the mother of Washington, would have been ad vanced at all, in their estimation or in their judgment, had she. in her day, been classed with the political body, and had the power of voting? We form all our judgment on such questions, not so much from the logical statements made in regard to them, as from our intuitions. The feeling a man has to his wife is the reflex of that sentiment which, as a son, he had to his mother, and the attempt to destroy the relation between the husband and the wife, or to take her from the position which she properly occupies, is partly an attempt to destroy the estimate which the son has of his mother; and I am convinced that in that light no candid mind is willing to try the experiment proposed. But I suppose it is due to the committee that I should pass more rapidly to some other propositions before it, and devolve this subject, farther than I have essayed to open it, to those who can best investigate the yearnings of human instinct in the breast of man to carry the woman whom he has made the partner of his life, to, and secure for ler, sovereignty in the social scale as her true realm and noblest diguity. I must pass, Mr. Chairman, now to the consideration of other questions before this Committee, and I will introduce what I have to say by a direct reference to the proposition advanced by the gentleman from Ooeida [Mr. T. W. Dwight], who is better known to me, and probably to most of this Convention, as a professor of law of high repute in the city of New York. That learned gentleman undertook to lay down to this Convention the other day certain qualilications, five in number, as a test for some rule lwhich lie thought was sufficient to meet all the exigencies of the case. I would not like, at so late an hour, or in any ungenerous spirit to say that such a division as he has laid down, would hardly serve the purposes of a calm and elaborate exposition of the matter in a text-book because the classification was bad, some of its heads being those of inclusion while some others were heads of exclusion. But it is sufficient for my purpose to draw the attention of the committee to that ivhich lie seemed to make the principal guide of his own views and the test of propriety of action in the matter of extending negro suffrage and that was simply this-the incorporation into the mass of society of that' class' of inhabitants. I wonder that the learned gentleman had failed to perceive that in the very statement of this as a test, he had virtually begged the whole question. He had not presented it except under a learned title in any other phase than that, in which it had always been presented to the intelligent jurists of this land. Why, sir, if he had incorporated at any time into the mass of the contents of his stomach some indigestible matter, he would have paid the penalty demanded by the laws of nature, and he would not have received the commendation of his physician. The incorporation into a mass in order to mean anything applicable to this case, implies an assimilable element; and had the forefathers of this nation seen a possibility of incorporating the negro into the mass of society, as an assimilable element, do you suppose they would ever have retained him in slavery? I am not here, to-night, to justify that institution, for I never did; but the test of the honorable gentleman is not presented in any sufficiently logical form in 387 order to assist us in our investigation. The actual see how they came along that isothermal line at condition is one of hotch-potch, and not a true 50~, and landed in the State of New York or a incorporation ilto the mass of society. If little northward into the State of Massachusetts. I were disposed to treat that proposition at all You can see how the citizens of the lower section pleasantly, I would say that sucl an incorporation 'f!Europe traveling along the line marked 60~, as tlat slhould receive an especial charter; lor tle find their natural home in the southern part of reason whicli the present Constitution assigns tils Union. Buit not to dwell upon tils matter, that its obiect could not be attained under it is sufficient to show you where the lines that a general law. [Lauhllter.] Because, if there is riu from tile Continent of Africa express themanyl general law by which we can incorporate this selves on this side of the Atlantic, and it is very rac e into our society, and make it an assimilable surprising that science should have developed the element. I would be obliged to tlle gentleman if thct tliat there is no portion of this State of New he wourld stow the way. Mr. Chairman, I York wlicli can ever be a true home for any ti.sh to stare wlat I suppose to be the original citizen of Africa. vi(ews of tlte Chlristian people o' this commonwealth Mr. AXTELL -Will the gentleman allow me pl;inly, intelligenltly alid tiirly. I believe tliat it to ask him a questio? is tlie desire and tile purpose of tlhe clristian peo- Mr. CONTGEK - Yes, sir. ple of this State, who I suppose represent the Mr. AXTELL- In what manner has science majority, to regard tile negro just as lie is to be developed t'he fact? regarded under tlhe autlority anld sanction of that Mr. CO.NGER. —These lines are traced from book which they receive as tle zgide of tleir life. Continent to Continent, by careful observations It is no new thling in the history of tlis State made by the mtost scientific minds otn either side that its christian people receive the black man as of the Atlantic, in determining thle question of a fellow-christian, and it is too late, and it is un- lieat, and they are mostly expressions of tlie necessary to go to the people witil any idea mledium temperature of tlte countries in wlich based upon the ordinary views of his exterior, and the observations are taken, and tlese lines extell tlem tlht psyclologically he is not a man. press tlhe mean actual temperature from year to No one receives tliat doctrine I suppose. Bu3t I year. I do not mean to say tliat with reference to have not heard that doctrine ainnouniced oni this these lines it would not be safe for a citizen of floor. Tlhat as a man lie is capable of being chris- Great Britain to go down below tlhe 70th isothertiantized and educated, no one, I believe, in this mal parallel to make it his liome. But we very State really doubts. But after all, tlat is not the well know that if he goes as a laboring man. lihe question. I tlink, sir, we should view tllis in can neither enjor health or secure to himself a the light in which humanity presents it, that if we strong constitutiua. And just tle same law, the believe the negro is nlot capable of a true same necessity forbids us going two or physical as well as moral improvement in more lines above, if they were traced on tlat map this State of New York, we should be candid and taking our homne in the arctic regions. If enough to tell lhim so. When we invite foreigners you trace the lines which mark the continent of to come to this land, it is because we hope that Africa from 700 to 70~, you see that they they will be so incorporated into the mass of are expressed on this side from the north line society, as to prove useful citizens and members of the north of Mexico, down to a point in South of the social state. But how can any person America just below the Brazils. And the meaning regard the future status as it is really presented, of all this is simply that the American as a practical question, supposing the negro can home of tile African lies between these lines. be incorporated into the mass of our society He may go ten degrees above it, but if he goes in this State? Now, sir, I have taken the twenty degrees lie goes at a considerable risk of trouble to procure that map [referring to a all tile effects that must necessarily follow in map of the world, showing thle isothermal lines the change of his constitutional vigor. But. when aucross tie two continents], which is thle only you propose to tlhe negro that h: should come protest tlle scientific mind of this country can from his native climate, or coming from the South. give:against certainl attempted practices to be ten degiees above his natural range, should come eufotrce;.d pon' tile people of this State, in regard here and make it his permanent home, I say you to the futture status of tile negro. This map is pre- make a proposition to him which is against the pared by tile Department at Washington, for the laws of God, clearly traced and expressed on purpose of showing, by certain lines drawn across tlese two continents. I have no proposition to from tile old to thle new Continent, the lines by make in regard to what portion of the United whicl the citizens of the old world can safely States might possibly be a home for the African, emigrate to this country, and thle belt of land where he could develop himself, and increase his within this country, which can make a home as costitutional vigor. My friend from Columbia safe to them in point of heallth and develop- [Mr. Gould] talked the other day about "brain ment as tlie home that they left. Ordinarily we culture," and, while I have ftt the time to pass supposed that all those in either hemisphere who any criticisms on that subject, you perceive that dwell on the same parallels of latitude, are capa- even if you admit his theory it is perfectly imble of passing from one country to another. But practicable, if you put a man where he cannot those lines teach a far different and a wiser lesson. develop his body and maintain a good constitution, You can see how tile inabitants who left Great or secure an average duration of human lift. But Britain and the northern sections of the Continent, some gentleman will say, in response to all this, and came to this country, deviated very little ' the negro does live in the State of New York." from the line which science has taught. You can The practical question that really comes bebfre 388 the people of this State is, how does he live? that would make the natural increase of the black What are the statistics which your own census race in the State of New York, from 1840 down give you on this subject? Do they show that the to the present time, 30,000; so that the last cenl negro is capable of increase here? Has he sus instead of giving us a population less than increased, and if so, why and how? I will not 45,000, should have given us a population of detain you with all these particulars; but I have 80,000. Supposing that there was a mistake in taken the trouble to look at the United States the late census, as suggested by my associate from census from 1790. Your will find that the popu- Westchester [Mr. Tappen]-suppose the populalation, free, colored, and slave, increased from tion of the black man shared the same misfortune 25,978 in 1790 until it reached its culminating which the population of the city of New York and point in 1840 to 50,000. Now, take that popula- the county of Kings shared, by which under that tion sir, in 1840 at 50,000. If it had increased estimate instead of gaining anything either by a according to the laws which marked the white foreign increase or by a natural rate of inpopulation of the State of New York at that time crease, they made a positive loss - suppose it would have increased at the rate of two that the true colored population of the State forty-one one hundredths per cent each year, and of New York in 1865 was 50,000, you have that would have given you 80,000 negroes. What got to account for 30,000 according to the law of is the fact? Instead of the negro population of increase which determined the white population the State of New York being 80,000 you find your of the State of New York. I shall not ask the census in 1865 puts it below 45,000. How will gentlemen of this Convention to draw upon their you account for this difference between what own private knowledge in regard to the unfortuwould have been his natural increase and the nate fate which has everywhere attended the setpositive status of the population? - tlement of the negro within our State, about which I Mr. M. I. TOWNSEND-Will the gentleman have been told from time to time by gentlemen repeat his last statement? who are in and out of this Convention, that there Mr. CONGER- Had he increased according to is no question whatever, in order to show the annual rate of population, the lowest in the that the negro race cannot maintain good State of New York for the white population during health or a vigorous constitution, or live to a period -old age, in this climate of the State of New Mlr. HAND - I would ask the gentleman if he York, and under the institutions of the State. cannot perceive that that difference consists in the Now.I put this simple question to yolu,whether you acquisition of foreigners to the white population? can as a christian people, in obedience to the Mr. CONGER - I am not giving the gentleman laws of humanity, propose to the negro that he the per centage of the black population to the shall make the State of New York his permanent white. I am giving him the absolute numbers. home in such a way that if he comes and settles Mr. M. I. TOWNSEND —What was the last here he should become a citizen? When you amount of the population - 50,000? invite foreigners to come to this country, it is Mr. CONGER -The colored population of the because you believe that if they come and settle State of New York in 1840 was 50,031. The with you, they will promote not only your own population in 1865 was 44,708. material prosperity, but enhance their own. But, Mr. LUDINGTON —May I ask the gentleman In the case of a negro, the census returns cola question, whether he does not know that by lected by your own State, as well as the United reason of the Fugitive Slave law in 1850, some States, show that no such result is possible for nino thousand of them fled from the State of New Iim. I think, therefore, sir. we are justified in York into Canada, as he will see by the census saying that humanity requires at the hands of ef that year? the intelligent white race in the State of New Mr. TAPPEN -I think I can afford an explan- York, that they should say in all frankness and ation by asking my colleague [Mr. Conger] a in all kindness to the black population, "You can question. I would ask him whether the present never be permanently and advantageously located census of 1865, was not taken by a, gentleman in the State of New York; you are destined, by who then was Secretary of State, Mr. Chauncey M. the laws of nature, over which we have no Depew? [Laughter.] control, to be sojourners in this State." If that Mr. CONGE -- The census of Canada shows in be so, sir, it is no violation of the great 1850 a colored population of about 2,000, and in principles of Anglo-Saxon law which recognizes 1860 less than 9,000 more. But perhaps it would be a distinction always between denizens and citizens. more satisfactory to thecommittee that I should run But suppose you entice the negro and ask him to over all these figures. In 1790, the sum total of come here now, by the voice of this Convention, to the black population was 25.978; in 1800, 30.717; be a permanent citizen of the State; you offer in 1810, 40,350; in 1814, 38,094; in 1820, 40,068; him a home, sir, and what do you give him? in 1830, 44,945; in 1840, 50,031; in 1850, You give him agrave. You furnish no trueand 49,069; in 1860, 49,005; including 3,318 blacks just facility for his increase, or the increase and and 382 mulattoes that were of foreign birth. So development of his family. You offer him liberty that in 1860 there were only 45,000 that were and political rights, but after all, practically,if these born in the United States, and residents of census returns are true, the liberty you offer is the the State of New York. Now, sir, if you will liberty to die. I had designed to illustrate and contake the trouble to look over the percentage firm this view by other matters and facts that I had which marked the increase of the white popula- collated from the census, and by considerations tion of this State, you will discover that thle owest!drawn from his physical type by which the negro rat we had for many years was 2 41-100, and can never be amalgamated with the superior race 389 without moral degradation to both and physical de- define the nature of the citizenship you want gradation to the latter. But the time and patience to give. of the Convention are exhausted, and I feel some Mr. FOLGER - I would like to ask the gentleevidence of that in the fact that I am not man [Mr. Conger] a question. Is there anything strong enough to go tlrough in a mere outline to prevent a negro being a juror now, if ho has the of presentation the thoughts that I desired to property qualificatioll? present to this committee. Now, Mr. Chair- Mr. CONGER-That depends altogether on tlae man, what is to be the c, nclusion of this matter? practice of localities. If you say that you will adopt the theory of Mr. FOLGER-Is there anything in the law natural rights, why then you cannot be consistent which prevents him from boing a juror if he has unless you admit the woman as well as the negro the property qualification? to the franchise. I think tho ladies who Mr. CONGER- I presume there is no absolute presented their views here the other night, had law against it. the best part of the argument, when they lectured Mr. LUD[NGTON-I ask the gentleman their republican friends for giving such high whether a Democratic sheriff in the county of privileges to the negro man and denying them to Seneca, has not recently placed the name of a their own equals in citizenship. I thought there colored man among the list of jurors, and was some propriety in the criticism when they whether that man was not drawn and did not sit said that their iope had been in the Constitution on the jury in that county quite recently. of the United States, by which they were recog- Mr. CONGER- As to the fact which is quoted nized as citizens, but the amendment to the Con- I know nothing, but I am prepared to take very stitution had effectually cut them off from that decided and high grounds on this question on the hope. If you propose, sir, to send this question ground of public policy. We have reached, Mr. down to the people, in my judgment you ought to Chairman, a new stage in the history and relations submit it as it really stands. If you propose to of the State of New York to the general governask the people to give up some share of their ment. It was never pretended until the present sovereignty, you should be able to show to the day, that any authority at Washington should say people a reason why they should demit that to the sovereign electors of this State in what sovereignty. You should show some great neces- manner that sovereignty should be exercised or sity, based either upon public law, upon human- shared; but yet, you remember that the gentleman ity or the principles of christian faith and practice, from New York [Mr. Opdyke] said two or why you should ask the negro to come here and three days ago that a decree had gone forth, the make thtis his home. In the State of New York inevitable result of which was that the negro you did not treat the alien that way, in the year should become a citizen of the State. I undertake 1825. In 1825 a law was passed giving limited to say, sir, that if you give a true and a fair conrights of citizenship by which aliens were enabled struction to the amendment proposed in Article to hold real estate, become liable for taxes, duties, 14 to the Constitution of the United States, that and assessments, and for the performance of mili- that same doctrine of limited citizenship still tary duty, in the same manner as citizens miglt, on shows itself. If the United States governfiling their declaration, but they were not capable of ment had the power and authority to say voting or lolding office or serving on juries, except that a negro resident of the State of New when the jury de medietate linguce was summoned. York should be a citizen, in the highest sense in Now, there is a clear distinction, a distinction of which I use the term. why did not the same citizenship, a distinction which you made in 1825 amendment declare that lie should vote? If he to the white population coming to this State, not was to be a citizen of the highest grade, "an cornmerely coming as sojourners, but coming and de- plete citizen," as Aristotle says; if he was to have claring their intentions of citizenship. You told all the functions of magistracy, and if he was capathem that on declaring their intentions they might ble of holding office, why, I ask, did not the same hold limited citizenship, that they should render amendment declare that he should vote? Conmilitary service, and that they should pay their gress never pretended to assume any jurisdiction taxes, but that they should not be capable of vot- over this question and it has not yet. All that ing or holding office, or serving as jurors. Now the second amendment says, is, that whenever the I take it that in the statute of 1825, this great right to vote is denied, then the State that will distinction was properly maintained, a distinction deny that vote shall lose a certain share of its by which incomplete citizenship is recognized representation. with all its privileges and its duties clearly Mr. E. BROOKS — Will the gentleman [Mr. defined. But if you proceed as is now pro- Conger] allow me to state that Congress has gone posed, the question is presented to my mind, so far recently as to declare that a State Convention and I shall feel it my duty to present it to in session as we are here to-day, unless they rethis committee, in order to get an expression from cognize the right of suffrage for the negro, shall it on the question, whether it is really your inten- not bo recognized in their relations with the tion that the sovereign electors of the State of Federal Government. That is substantially the New York shall admit negroes to the highest proposition of Mr. Kelly of Pennsylvania. grade of political citizenship? Do you mean them Mr. CONGER —Does the gentleman [Mr. E. to serve as jurors? Do you mean them to hold Brooks] mean to inform the committee that any positions in your courts? Do you mean them to such declaration has absolutely been enacted be capable of holding the executive function of into law? magistracy? Because if you do not, then Mr. E. BROOKS-I do not mean to say that; but I think that you ought very clearly to I mean to say this, that innovations of the Con 390 gross of the United States upon the established rights and usages of States have gone so far as to admit of that proposition; and that within the last forty-eight hours a bill has been pressed in the United States Senate, compelling equal recognition of tle rights of suffrage for the negro in all the States of the Union. Mr. CONGER - Whatever the exact status of:the negro as presented by the national Congress is, I think the sovereign electors of the State of New York are prepared to meet the issue. Not that I, for one, propose to make the issue, nor that I shall propose any measure which would be in derogation of any just right of the national Congress; not that I propose to bring tile sovereign citizens of the State of New York in conflict with Congress, or any of those who seek to extend such unlawful influence over the votes and the actions of the sovereign people of the State of New York; but, sir, I think that this is tile political question that we should send down to the people: "Will you deny this vote, because if you do, you lose a certain representation in Congress?" Small thougrl it is now, it may be large one of these days. I want the people to look at that matter very calmly and to decide it very carefully. I do not suppose it is necessary to present the question of a property qualification, in order that the people shall vote on this thing intelligently. I had intended to show the reasons why we could consistently set aside the property qualification ill tllis age of' the world, but the time and the temper of this committee forbid that I should go into any other branch of the question. But as it stands now. with this amendment, [ say as a matter of law that although Congress might have designed to compass something else. it has only made the black man a citizen in the second deCree; he is not, by the proposed amendments (which are not law yet, for they have not passed, but on tlhe suppositi n that they will pass one of these days) a citizen possessed of the highest t uctions of citizenship; lie is not of necessity, a voter of tlhe State of New York, it lie is a resident therein, and the people have their choice wlether they will accept the conditions imposed by way ot penalty ii this amendment, or wlether they will not. I propose, Mr. Cliairnau, wllen opportunity offers to present this question to tlls committee, and, tlroughl tis comnittee, to the Convention. I think that is the practical questiJn to present. I also want to m ke a distinctiou betweeni the two kinds of citizenship. 1 am wil;iuK to adnit for the tima beiug thlat the negro shall be a citizen of tile second grade, but 1 am not willing to admtll[ hiim witllout thie eJlisent of the sovereigni. of tihe Stalte of New York. by a vote taken by tLelilm separately on tLhaI questioll; I ain not williiu to recogilizue hiia as t citizent with the hiihrhest finluotiSo or uitizensliip, ail tlierefore I shall ask the coiinittee to say, andll I wishi tile people to decide tiis qyalstioa, if an opporttlimity sh.-ll be p,'esemted tlo tili, wnllether tlhet mend to permir tile uerio il tile Stlal of' rNew York to be a canlidate tfr ally o.lice in the gift of tll people, ertlie' executive, judicial or represeutacitve. [t striKes til tlat tills is the fair, plain antd direc;t ouirse which tiis quuesiou oalillt Lu;ake. Mr. RATHBUN —Will the gentleman [Mr. Conger] allow me to inquire if he knows the fact that the colored man to-day, who possesses two hundred and fifty dollars worth of real estate free from debt, may be a candidate, legally, for any office in the State? Mr. CONGER —Then I propose in a proposition to be submitted either to this Convention or to tlhe people, to have that thing forever settled. that the possibility shall no longer exist. Mr. RATHBUN — I ask the gentleman if lie does not know that such is the case now to-day? Mr. CONGER-It exists by bare possibility because of the very inefficient way in which all these questions have been regulated by former enactments. and by constitutional provisions. But it is time, Mr. Chairman, that I should close. I regret extremely that for tle last half hour or so I have felt so utterly inadequate to pursue the discussion after a plan that I had so imperfectly sketched; but, as I said before, I do not wish this question to be now set aside in any way in wlich the true merits of the case cannot be presented to the people. So far as the present negro vote is concerned, it is quite insignificant. Numerically it is not worth any agitation, but on great principles and witli regard to the future, it is a matter, in my judgment, of the highest practical moment. You do not know, sir, and no nian can tell in the years that are to come, what an inlflux we may have from the Southern States, of this same population. The state,f tlIings ias chanced so materially since tile adoption of the Constitution, since 1846, that I tlink it is now hlihll time that the sovereign people of the State of New York, should speak out in clear and unmistakable language on this subject. I do not thliik that opportunity should be oresented, in any contingency, of a reaction in the! Southern States Mr. DUGANNE - I would like to ask the gentleman merely if he supposes that it any future time we will have such a great ijflux of southern blacks as can overcome the isotlermal lines. [Laughlter.] Mr. CONGIER -Yes; inl obedience to the lawq by which tliese lines have bnen violated ever since tle negro lhad a home in the State of New York. Bult tliat is not tile question-tllat is not tlhe issue. [f a hiiundred thousand of tlese people were to come here, colonized for any special purpose, and brougrlt here as paupers. urn:bie to support themstlves, arid a charge upon the public ciarities, or the revenues of tle State, wlio could slllt tlem out? What would debar them, if you give t hem citizenslhip arind sovereignty, from coming here ard mlilltaiinin tlheir liome, and exercising tie elective franchise? I do not mean to say that it is witlin the hidghest possibility t.liht stlch a course as that wouil be adopted by any political party inl this State. in order to secure a vote on some exci.iing election, but I do think tile question,o future migration of tile colored popilarti)mn to the State ofr New York is one of very irreat practical moment. We do not know lnow lonr tile present statull of thimnrs may exist il lile S)uth. I tlink tlhe people of tle State of New YorkMr. FOLGER-Is thle gentleman from Rock 391 land [Mr. Conger] opposed to the negro voting Eliza Benton, and thirteen others, citizens of New when he acquires a property qualification? York; also petition of Caroline E. Hubbard, and Mr. CONGER - Yes, sir. twenty others, citizens of Westchester county, Mr. FOLGER-Then you are opposed to the asking for equal suffrage for men and women. traditions of the people? Which was referred to the Committee of the Mr. CONGER-I am not opposed to any one Whole. exercising the elective franchise who has received Mr. CURTIS also presented the petition of C. C. that privilege under any existing law. I do not Pinckney, C. W. Godard, A. M. Powell, Sinclair propose, as the majority of this committee do, to Tousey, Isaac H. Bailey, and fifty others, citizens disfranchise any one on account of color; but I of the county of New York, asking for equal propose hereafter to lay down a new rule, I shall rights for colored citizens, and against a separate propose in the amendment that I shall submit, that submission. every man who is now entitled to vote, shall have Which was referred to the Committee of the the liberty of voting, but in reference to those Whole. who are to enjoy the franchise in the future, that Mr. ANDREWS presented a petition from the that question shall be submitted to tle people. town of Lebanon, Madison county, in relation to If they approve of that action, I, of course, con- charitable devises and bequests. sent. But I am not willing that this question Which was referred to the Committee on the should be passed over at this time in such Preamble and Bill of Rights. a way that we will have no clearer understand. The PRESIDENT presented a communcation ing in the future, whether a negro is a from the State Engineer and Surveyor in answer citizen of the highest grade. I regret, sir, to a resolution of the Convention adopted June that I have detained the committee so lonag 6th, calling for an estimate of the cost of enlarge but I hope, that however imperfectly I may have ing the locks of the Chemung canal. presented some leading thoughts and views in this Which was referred to the Committee of the matter. that there is a kindness and an apprecia- Whole and ordered to be printed. tion sufficient in this committee to give the views The PRESIDENT also presented a communica. I have sought to present, a candid and a fair tion from the clerk of the Superior Court of the interpretation. I county of New York, in answer to a resolution Mr. T. W DWIGHT-I move that the com- adopted by the Convention in reference to the mittee do now rise, report progress and ask leave number of causes on the calender. to sit again. Which was referred to the Committee of the The question was put on the motion of Mr. Judiciary and ordered to to be printed. Dwight, and it was declared carried. Mr. SHERMAN gave the following notice: Whereupon the committee rose and the Presi- That he will, after the expiration of three days, dent resumed the chair in Convention. move to reconsider the following votes, respecMr. ALVORD, from the Committee of the tively: Whole, reported that the committee had had 1st. That by which a substitute was adopted under consideration the Report of the Committee for rule 19. on the Right of Suffrage, and the Quialifications to 2d. That by which the words "4. For the pre. Hold Office, had made some progress therein, but vious question " was stricken out of rule 23. not having gone through therewith had instructed 3d. That by which the words " for the previous their Chairman to report that fact to the Conven- question " was stricken out of rule 24. tion and ask leave to sit again. 4th. That by which a substitute was adopted The question was then put on granting leave for rule 28. and it was declared carried. Which was laid on the table. On motion of Mr. MURPHY the Convention Mr. MERRITT, from the Committee on the Legadjourned. islature, its Organization, etc., submitted the following report: The Committee on the Legislature, its OrganizaFRIDAY, July 19, 1867. tion, etc., unanimously report the following amend. The Convention met at 11 o'clock, A. M. menlt to their report as heretofore submitted. Prayer was offered by Rev. WM. BAILEY. 1st. Strike out of the second section the first The Journal of yesterday was read by the sentence, to wit: "The Senate shall consist of SECRETARY and approved. thirty three members." Mr. E. BROOKS presented two petitions from 2d. After the word "territory" in the third the citizens of Long Island, praying against the section, insert the following words: "And the donation of public money to sectarian institutions. first district shall be entitled to such additional Which was referred to tile Committee on the Senators as its citizen population shall in proporPowers and Duties of tie Legislature. tion to that of the entire State entitle it. Mr. LARREMORIE presented tle petition of Which was laid on the table and ordered to be Wm. H. Ten Evck, and twenty-seven others, printed. citizens of New York, upon the same subject. Mr. DUGANNE called up for consideration Which took the same reference. the resolution offered by him yesterday. Mr. GRERLEY presented the petition of John The SECRETARY proceeded to read the resolu. M. Waudell and one hundred and eighty others, tion as follows: citizens of New York, upon the same subject. Resolved, That it is the sense of this Convention Which took the same reference. that persons of African descent, residing in the Mr. C URTIS presented the petition of Mrs. State of New York, are entitled to the same rights 392 and immunities claimed by persons of European descent. Mr. LIVINGSTON - It may be that I do not exactly comprehend the meaning of this resolution. but it seems to me that in its present shape it is so vague that the members of this Convention, who may vote for it without having had an opportunity to fully consider the proposition, might be found to have voted for a measure which they would not have done. In order, therefore, to limit the meaning oT this resolution, and to avoid any misconstruction which might otherwise be placed upon a vote, by which it may be adopted or rejected, I beg leave to offer the following amendment thereto, and to call for the ayes and noes thereon: " Provided, however, that in the opinion of this Convention, the amalgamation of the two races is to be deprecated, and should be prohibited by the fundamental law in this State." Mr. GREELEY-I move that the whole subject be laid on the table. Mr. DUGANNE called for the ayes and noes. A sufficient number not seconding the call, the ayes and noes were refused. The question was then put on the motion of Mr. Greeley and it was declared carried. Mr. MERRITT called up for consideration the resolution offered by him a few days ago. The SECRETARY proceeded to read the resolution as follows: Kesolved, That the consideration of all propositions having in view the mode or manner of submittiug the Constitution as revised or any article orany part thereof to the people, be postponed until the Constitution or proposed amendments shall have been definitely acted upon by the Convention, and prepared for submission. Mr. HUTCHINS moved to am'eud the same by substituting therefor the following: Resolved, That a Committee of fifteen be appointed, whose duty it shall be to examine into and report upon the following subjects: 1st. The arrangement of the several articles and sections of the Constitution, as amended and adopted. 2d. The manner and form in which the Constitution as amended and adapted shall be submitted to tile people for their adoption or rejection. 3d. The publication of the amendments, or of the Constitution ia asmended, 4th. Tile form of the notice of election. 5tll. The form of the ballot. Mr. M ERRITT — I will accept the amendment. Mr. CONGIR — I would like to inquire of tle mover of this resolution, whether lie intends by the scope of tle first part of tlte reso(htion,. to prevent by special o'der any determination, or to forestall anv action of this Couventio in regard to any proposed amendr ent, or any proposed method of stinmitting any question to the people. so ttitt if the Ci,)lventloni at clis time, adopt this resolution, it will be considered as a special order reterriniy co some flutire day every vote whicl tile Convention may take on any matter which is either now or will be inl tle Committee of the Whole. Mr. HUTCIIINS- Certainly not. tr. ALVORD-When tile resolution, to which this is a substitute, was offered a few days ago by my friend from St. Lawrence [Mr. Merritt], I was opposed to its passage at that time, because of the fact, that we had before us in the Committee of the Whole, a question which had already been advocated, and which that resolution must necessarily, or by implication, have cut off for the then time. I, sir, shall vote for this substitute for the reason that now that question has been virtually disposed of, at least for the present, by tile action of the Committee of the Whole. I thought, at the time. the ques'ion then being agitated for a separate submission of any portion of the Constitution, was, to say the least of it, premature, but we have got over that difficulty. We have already disposed of that question so far as that action was concerned, and it seehts to me now eminently proper that we should delay this question of a separate submission of any proposition made before ius, until we have finally concluded our labors, and we can devise what portion, in our judgment, shall be submitted separately, or what portion shall be submitted as a wlole. I do not mnyself, as far as regards the agitation of the particular subject which is in the minds of every member of this Convention, think tiere should be any debate stifled, or any change of opinion yrowiug out of any political arrangement whatever; but I do desire, in these the intervening stages of our action here as a Convention, we Shall have no such disorganizing element brought into our midst for the purpose of taking our minds away from questions which should be legitimately in consideration before us. It is for this reason, sir, and for the reason that this is an (pportune time for the movement, that I am in favor of the substiitute offered by the gentleman from New York [Mr. Hutchins]. Mr. HARRfS-I approve of this resolution. its form and provisions are very carefully prepared; but yet, sir, I think, it is premature to act ulpon this subject now. What will there be for,lis committee of fifteen to do? We lave not igreed yet upon a single proposition to be submitLed to the people-upon a single amendment, and.inless we make much more rapid progress than we lave yet made, it will be very long before this ommtittee will have anythitng to do. Undoubtedly,his is the proper mode of preparing for tile subnission of our work to the people. In every Jonvention, towards the close of it, when tlle leliberations of the Conventioni were nearly over, when there was sometling to be submitted to the people, tlen a committee of revisioi lhas been Iraised to arrange tile order proposed for sulbmission, aid to arrange the mode of submission, vliether in separate articles or together; tand iLnil we have somethliig to submit, tmntil we have made some further progress in reference to this matter, it seems to me tlat we ire acting very pirematurely. We have not a single thing to submit. and non constat we never hiall have. Why sallll we begin at the wrong -rnd and prepare the maclhiinery for submitting the natter to the people, before we have adopted anything to sttt)tl:it. Mr. HUTCHINS-The law under which we are acting, section 6, provides: 393 "The said amendments or Constitution shall be submitted by the Convention to the people, for their adoption or rejection, at the next general election, to be held on the Tuesday next after the first Monday of November next, and every person hereby entitled to vote for delegates may, at that election, vote on such adoption or rejection, in the election district in which he shall then reside, and not elsewhere. The said amendments or the said Constitution shall be voted upon as a whole, or in such separate provisions as the Convention shall deem practicable, and as the Convention shall by resolution declare. In either case the Convention shall prescribe the form of the ballot the publication of the amendments or of the Constitution, and the notice to be given of the election." That duty devolves upon us by the terms of the law under which we act. The gentleman said, the resolution is carefully worded. It is but the transcribing of the language of the statute into the form of a resolution. The only question is, whether this resolution is now premature. Under other circumstances I should have certainly said that it was; but the Convention will perceive how long a time has been taken upon this very question of separate submission, which is provided for in the law under which we are convened. On the very threshold o' our debates another question comes up, and whether that shall be seperately submitted or not may consume weeks in discussion, and so on with the twenty other subjects that may come up. It is for the purpose of preventing this. that 1 propose this resolution. If we adopt no amendments, then no Constitution is adopted, and there will be no work for this committee; if there are amendments, then this committee will be prepared to act; and it is for the purpose of saving this long discussion that we have been listening to for a week past, that I have offered the resolution as a substitute to that of the gentleman from St Lawrence [Mr. Merritt]. Mr. KER.NAN - I differ with my friend from New York [Mr. Hutchins] as to his premises. While on a certain subject the only question before this Convention was whether a proposition, which all concede must be submitted to the people in one form or another, should be submitted separately or as a part of the proposed Constitution, yet no long time has bpen spent in this Convention discussing that proposition. Indeed, no time at all, scarcely, has been devoted to its discussion. The truth is the time has been spent in discussing questions wlich must go before the people, and which cannot be determined by this Convention; therefore, sir, there is nlo need of this resolution to save time. so far as our past experience is concerned in discussing the question of separate submission iere. It seems to me, therefore,tihat tliere is great force in tie remarks made by the gentleman from Albany [Mr. Harris], tllat it is not wise at this time to raise a committee and thus take from this body the opportunity of discussing whether one proposition or anotler is to be submitted separately, or submitted as a part of the others. We are not prepared to say, it seems to me at this time, and we should not raise a committee to consider and report at this time, in reference to the mode and manner of submitting propositions which shall be 50 matured here. If the gentleman from Now York [Nir. Hutchins] desires to save time by stopping discussions here on questions which should be discussed before the people, and which must be passed upon. by them, why he can do it by calling gentlemen to the point involved in debate, and determination here. Now, sir, there has been scarcely anything said in reference to a separate submission of any proposition in this body, and I do not concur with the gentleman from Onondaga [Mr. Alvord], and I -,sliould be sorry to believe that the vote taken the other evening, on a Single proposition, at the close of the session, when but fbw were here and none expected it, was to stand as a, determination by this body that either that question should not be solved by a separate submission, or that other questions were not to be discussed and determined here, whether they would be separately submitted or conjointly with others. Now, sir, trust and believe that it is wise for all here, whatever their views maybe, to postpone flor the present, the raising of the committee to arrange, determine and report, as to the submitting of our work, especially as we have not adopted a single proposition in this body, and have not gone over a single section of the report that has been made. 1, therefore, appeal to members that we should not, at this stage, be cut off from expressing our views in reference to a separate submission of one question or another; that we shall not have all that referred to a committee, and all discussion upon it cut off until the close or our labors, when there will be no time for discussion at all. Mr. HALE -I am in favor of the adoption of, this resolution. not entirely for the reason stated by the gentleman from New York [Mr. Hutchins], who proposed it, although it might have some weight with me. I had the honor of introducing a resolution yesterday which was laid oil the table. substantially to the effect of this, except that it differed in regard to the size of the committee, and also that the present resolution proposes to give more subjects to this committee than were mentioned in my resolution. I am in favor of this resolution, not for the purpose of preventinc, or forestalling debate upon this question, but for the purpose of having a convenient committee to whom all resolutions and questions that may' arise relating to the fcrm of submission, of any amendments that vVe may propose, may be referred. I think it is eminently wise there should be such a committee appointed; it will not provent discussion by gentlemen whenever any question is raised on the subject of separate submission, but it will probablyprevent determined action by this Convention upon that subject until arter we have acted on the different propositions that are made to umend this Constitution. It seems to me that we shall all be better prepared to deter. mine definitely on this question, after the reports of the standing committees are made and acted upon, and after we know what they have passed upon. IL does not seem to me, howeve that this fact is an objection to the appointment of a committee; we shall undoubtedly do somethiag - I do not ~uppose there is a gentleman in this Con. vention who doubts that some amendments. will be proposed to the present Constitution. I see jag harm. therefore, in appointing a com. mittee., uovr4 a matured here. If the gentleman from New York [Mr. Hutchins] desires to save time by stopping discussions here on questions which should be discussed before the people, and which must be passed upon by them, why he can do it by calling gentlemen to the point involved in debate, and determination here. Now, sir, there has been scarcely anything said in reference to a separate submission of any proposition in this body, and I do not concur with the gentleman from Onondaga [Mr. Alvord], and I should be sorry to believe that the vote taken the other evening, on a single proposition, at the close of the session, when but few were here and none expected it, was to stand as a determination by this body that either that question should not be solved by a separate submission, or that other questions were not to be discussed and determined here, whether they would be separately submitted or conjointly with others. Now, sir, I trust and believe that it is wise for all here, whatever their views maybe, to postpone for the present, the raising of the committee to arrange, determine and report, as to the submitting of our work, especially as we have not adopted a single proposition in this body, and have not gone over a single section of the report that has been made. I, therefore, appeal to members that we should not, at this stage, be cut off from expressing our views in reference to a separate submission of one question or another; that we shall not have all that referred to a committee, and all discussion upon it cut off until the close of our labors, when there will he no time for discussion at all. Mr. HALE -I am in favor of the adoption of this resolution, not entirely for the reason stated by the gentleman from New York [Mr. Hutchins], who proposed it, although it might have some weight with me. I had the honor of introducing a resolution yesterday which was laid on the table, substantially to the effect of this, except that it differed in regard to the size of the committee, and also that the present resolution proposes to give more subjects to this committee than were mentioned in my resolution. I am in favor of this resolution, not for the purpose of preventing or forestalling debate upon this question, but for the purpose of having a convenient committee to whom all resolutions and questions that may arise relating to the fcrm of submission, of any amendments that we may propose, may be referred. I think it is eminently wise there should be such a committee appointed; it will not prevent discussion by gentlemen whenever any question is raised on the subject of separate submission, but it will probably prevent determined action by this Convention upon that subject until after we have acted on the different propositions that are made to amend this Constitution. It seems to me that we shall all be better prepared to determine definitely on this question, after the reports of the standing committees are made and acted upon, and after we know what they have passed upon. It does not seem to me, lowever, that this fact is an objection to the appointment of a committee; we shall undoubtedly do something; I do not suppose there is a gentleman in this Convention who doubts that some amendments will be proposed to the present Constitution. I see no harm, therefore, in appointing a.committee.ow, 394 committee which will not be obliged to act, and But when, Mr. President, the gentleman from Ononwhich will not act until after the reports of the daga [Mr. Alvord] rose to give his view of the other standing committees are in; a committee to operation of this resolution, he said distinctly, that which matters can be referred that relate to this it would operate. to prevent a submission of any subject of submission. I must say, Mr. President, single proposition for a separate submission, either that I do not agree with my friend from New in Committee of the Whole or in the Convention. York [Mr. Hutchins] as I understood him, that He avowed the object to be not only to cut off the question as to whether the people shall debate upon 1tis proposition, but to cut off a vote. be allowed to vote separately upon the Now you will perceive, and I think the inference report of the Suffrage Committee has been de- is irresistible, that in referring to a committee, a termined by this Convention. All that the Con- certain classification of the work in this Convenmittee of the Whole have determined upon that tion, with power, you are really establishing a matter is to vote down the proposition of the gen- special order for the control and management of tieman from Kings [Mr. Murphy]. It is known your business. Suppose sir, in Committee of the to this body that many who voted against that Whole, I present a proposition that a certain amendment and were opposed to it, did not by clause in the Constitution is to be separately subthat vote intend to express themselves against a mitted to the people, and the gentleman from separate submission, or what is equivalent, against Onondaga [Mr. Alvord], immediately rises and allowing the people to vote separately against this moves to refer the proposition of the gentleor any portion of the Constitution. But I think man from Rockland, to a committee of fifteen we shall be better prepared to vote upon that having charge of that subject; I am shut out question of submission when it comes before the from my privilege of either presenting the propConvention, after the standing committees have osition, or asking a vote upon it, because by a reported, and the most convenient manner of post- special order you have referred the whole subjectponing the action of the Convention will be the matter to this committee of fifteen. Is not that it? appointing of this committee, which will not act Mr. ALVORD- Certainly. until the reports of the standing committees are, Mr. CONGER —Exactly. That is a frank in. I propose as an amendment to the resolu- avowal. You pass this resolution, and every tion offered by the gentleman from New York [Mr. gentleman, no matter what his views may be on Hutchins] the addition of these words: " That any subject, is precluded by that action from even said committee is not to report until after the re- making a motion in Committee of the Whole or in ports of the standing committees have been re- the Convention that a certain proposition be subceived and acted upon." mitted to the people for separate vote. Now, Mr. HUTCHINS -I will accept the amendd- Mr. President, if the object of this was simply to ment of the gentleman from Essex [Mr. Hale]. postpone the action upon these propositions to a The PRESIDENT -The Chair will inform the convenient time, I would have no objection. But gentleman that the amendment is offered to the do you not see that the immediate and direct resolution of the gentleman from St. Lawrence effect of it is to preclude every gentleman, no [Mr. Merritt]. matter what his views may be, no matter what his Mr. MERRITT -I will accept the amendment. I position may be iu this Convention, on one side Mr. MURPHY-I do not discover from the or the other. with the political majority or minorreading of that resolution that any member of this ity, from presenting any proposition in Committee Convention will be prevented, when a subject of the Whole or in Convention from calling the shall be under consideration, either in the Con- ayes and noes on that question? It is referred to mittee of the Whole, or in Convention, from pro- the committee of fifteen, and how will you posing an amendment to such article providing ever get a vote, even when the report of the for a separate submission to the people. As I un- committee of fifteen comes in, can you raise a derstand the reading of the resolution, it is that vote on the original proposition? I would like to the subject of separate submission may be exam- ask the gentleman from Onondaga [Mr. Alvord] ined into and reported upon by the committee if I am not correct in saying that this is the proposed to be raised by it; leaving it to the Con- parliamentary effect of the resolution, that we vention in its superior capacity to determine in are about to establish as a special order. any case whether it will or will not submit any Mr. ALVORD-I think the gentleman from articles separately, to be voted upon by the people. Rockland [Mr. Conger], is entirely mistaken in With that understanding, I have no particular regard to the operation of it, and that on the objection to the resolution. incoming of the report of the committee it can be Mr. MERRITT-That is my understanding of amended in any particular or regard, and upon the proposition, and with that view I accepted the such amendment the ayes and noes can be called substitute of the gentleman from New York [Mr. in the Convention, and discussed as long as they Hutchins]. please, under the rule. Mr. CONGER — I am frank to say that that is Mr. KERNAN -Did I not understand the not my view of either the meaning of this resolu- gentleman to say, the object of this was to save tion, or what I now undertand to have been the time in this body, by preventing discussion or object in offering it. When I first put the ques- argument as to whether there should be really a tion to the gentleman from New York [Mr. Hutch- submission of separate clauses, or not, and referins], who offered this proposition, he said, if I ring that to a committee, who were to submit a understood him correctly, that he did not mean report? that this should operate as a special order to con- Mr. ALVORD - I will answer the gentleman til certain nd or purposes to which I alluded. from Oueida [Mr. Kernan], and will answer the 395 gentleman from Rockland [Mr. Conger], also. that that lie on the table, we are to be compelled Sir, I say to the gentleman from Oneida that my to come up here and have a discussion on that, ouridea in regard to this matter is, and that upon side of the Committee of the Whole, and outside which my action proceeds, that this question of of the action of the Convention on that report, separate submission is prematurely brought into and it is for the purpose of getting rid this Convention. It belongs to another and a dif- of this difficulty, and bringing this down to ferent stage of our proceedings, and should go the time when all men can speak with the down to that stage in the regular order of our entirb length and breadth of their opinions business. It only complexes and involves us in and desires, and speak about it nnderstandingly, difficulties, in reference to these separate and dis- and take it as a separate and distinct proposition, tinct propositions, each and every of them, as one from the other, that I desire this resolution to they may come up, can as well be, and better, as receive the assent of the majority of this Confar as the time and energy o' this Convention is vention, and I trust, therefore, in this view, and concerned, taken care of; examined, discussed, in this light of the subject there will be no quesand determined, at the close of our labors, than tion in regard to the passage of the resolution. now. 1, sir, with the consent of the gentle- Mr. C. L. ALLEN-I am in favor of the resoluman from Rockland [Mr. Couger], if he will per- tion as proposed by the amendment of the gentlemit me still to continue, desire to offer an amend- man from Onondaga [Mr. Alvord.] We shall act, ment, so as to carry out distinctly and clearly my if we pass this resolution, in conformity with the views: 'that all resolutions referring to the sub-j Convention of 1821, and the Convention of 1846. ject embraced in this resolution shall be re- The question of the separate submission of any ferred to that committee as of course, with- article that was agreed upon in those Conout debate." I desire to say, in answer to my ventions, was never agitated until the close friend from Oneida [Mr. Kernan], in a remark of the proceedings of each of them, and one I understood him to make when he was of the reasons offered, and a very forcible one, up the first time, that lie misunderstood me. I not only in the Convention of 1821, by some of did not say, I do not wish to be so understood, that the most able men in that Convention, but also the determination of the vote upon the proposi- in the Convention of 1846, by some of the most tion of the gentleman from Kings [Mr. Murphy], able men there, was, that the Constitution could determines the sense of this Convention upon the not be prepared, article by article, to pass upon quiestion of separate submission. I do not think each subject before the Convention as to their I did. 1 am aware of the fact that that vote was separate submission, and because the adoption of taken under peculiar circumstances, that there some articles, in connection with the adoption of wero manv who were in favor of separate submis- other articles, if some were passed upon by the Soni o., this floor who did not like the form of the people, and others rejected, the symmetry and proposition of the gentleman from Kings [Mr. harmony of the whole instrument would be deMnrphy], and who, therefore, are recorded as ap- stroyed. We cannot tell, therefore, how much parentLly aaratist the idea of separate submission. the adoption of one articel is to be connected with But what I did say was this: that in my estima- the adoption of another article, or if one should be tion, the discussion of the question of separate rejected and the other passed upon. the harmony submission was at that time premature. but that I of the whole is destroyed It is for that reason, avoided pressing, either by my vote or by my and to use the words now, of one of the most emivoice, the motioii of the gentleman from St. Law- nent members of the Convention of 1821: "It is rence [Mr. Merritt], because that question had impossible for us to determine as to the practicabeen opened up in the Committee of the Whole. bility of submitting several articles to the people and I tlhought it a little unigrenerous to say the,until the determination of the whole, because the least. in that manner to cut eff the debate which difficulty would be increased by the reflection, had so far proceeded; but when that debate had that the adoption of some articles, and the rejecbeen stopped by the action of the Committee rion of others, may greatly impair the symmetry of the Whole, I thought it entirely proper of the whole instrument." Therefore, it is proper that the proposition of the gentleman from St. we should wait until we have passed upon all the Lawrence [Mr. Merritt] should come before the articles submitted for our consideration, until we house and have its final action in regard to what determine ns to which shall be submitted sepslhould be the disposition of this matter from now.,rately. For that reason, I am in favor of the till the end of our labors. T wish to speak plainly adoption of that resolution. on this subject. We are to have thrown into our Mr. WEID- I do not know that I understand faces every hour and milnute of the day at which the gentleman from Onondaga [Mr. Alvord] fully, we sihall comne to tile different orders of business, as to his opinion upon this question. As I underthis question of separate submission, and the -tand the resolution and amendment offered by changes are to be rung on it from time to time him, any resolutions that are offered bringing up throughout the whole of our labors. I ask, gen- the question of separate submission would be tlemen, if they do not know tlhat there lies upon referred to this committee, and debate upon them the table of this Convention to-day, to be -called stopped; now I do not understand that we, by up at any moment, when the mover requires, a raising a committee to whom these questions separate and distinct proposition in regard to negro shall be referred, will prevent, for instance, the suffrage; resolving tlat it is the sense of this Con,- entleman from Kings [Mr. Murphy] renewing ventiotI that it ought to be submitted separately? his amendment to the report upon the question Now, sir, uiless the majority ( speak not. of a of suffrage in the Convention, and discussing the political majority) of this house shall see At to move amendment before- the: Convention under 'the 396 rules. I ask the gentleman from Onondaga [Mr. that may come up for consideration here. These Alvord] if. in his opinion, after the adoption propositions are various; they relate to different of this resolution, the gentleman from Kings [Mr. subjects, some of which may appropriately be reMurphy] could not in Convention offer the same ferred to the people separately. Others do not amendment to the report of the Committee on require any such distinct submission. I think it Suffrage that he did in Committee of the Whole, is in contravention of the law and would be unfair, and to have it discussed and passed upon. in advance, to bind this Convention to say that Mr. ALVORD - In answer to that question none of these propositions shall be considered in I will say that the gentleman from Kings [Mr. connection with the different articles which may Murphy] has a vested right that we, by resolu- come up with the report for consideration. But tion, cannot take away from him, to bring it up sir, I am particularly opposed to this resolution, before this Convention and ask for a division of because it seems as if it were aimed at limiting the question, and discuss it also. the action of this Convention in regard to the Mr. WEED — I think, under the decision we amendment which I had the honor to propose a have made in this Convention, the gentleman from. few days ago, in Committee of the Whole, which Kings [Mr. Murphy], has no more vested right has been the subject of consideration. The genupon that question of amendment, than any other tieman from Onondaga [Mr. Alvord] speaking ex member, because we decided that amendments cathedra on this subject says, I have a vested right are in order in the Convention. It seems that to have the proposition voted upon in the Convcndistinction must be made here, that we cannot by tion. I will merely say to him that he is not the resolution prevent a member of this Convention presiding officer of this Convention. He from so amending a proposition, that, from its has no authority to say what will be very terms, it would have to be submitted sepa- the determination of tlat otficer,on those question.i rately, and that when such an amendment is pro- which shall be submitted to the Conivetion upon posed, it being an amendment, to a proposition the rising of the committee, and if this resolution and germane to it, it must be considered and be adopted it will cut off all offer of that amend. cannot be taken out of the Committee of merit on my part, notwithstanding I may have the Whole and referred to a committee, offered it in Committee of the Whole. I think it but can be taken out of the Convention and re- is highly unjust to cut off the minority in this ferred to a committee, and in that view I do not Convention from having that question considered see any objection to the resolution. If I thought now, which has been so fully discussed in Comnit would prevent stcb amendments in the Commit- mittee of the Whole. I am opposed to it for mittee of the Whole, and tend to change the pro- another reason. I wish to follow up that amendposition so as to compel it to be referred to the ment with another one, and that is the propriety people separately I should oppose the resolution. of a separate submission, of the admissibility of Mr. MERRITT -I certainly understood the the negroes to suffrage without the restriction of resolution to allow any proposition to be submit- the property qualification. I want to have the ted either in the Convention or Committee of the determination of this committee and of this ConWhole, having in view the manner of submitting vention upon the two projects: first, the submispropositions to the people; but I did suppose that sion to the people of the extension of the right of the disposition of such resolution or proposition suffrage beyond what it is now, and also subwould be referred to this committee, and this corn- mitting to the people the question whether persons mittee I understand is to be raised for the pur- shall vote or not without the property qualificapose of considering all such propositions, and, tion. like any other standing committee, any subject of MAr. M. I. TOWNSEND -I desire to make a which they should have charge, would be referred suggestion to the gentleman from Kings [Mr. to them; but since this discussion, and for the Murphy], that I have examined the proposition purpose of coming directly to the question, and of the gentleman from Onondaga [Mr. Alvord], considering the proposition of the gentleman from and it only provides that resolutions should be Onondaga [Mr. Alvord] to be more nearly like the referred to that committee, but does not provide one I originally offered, I shall accept his amend- that propositions, amendments, etc., should be rement, and allow, as far as I am concerned, a di- ferred to that committee, as I supposed it imposvision of the question when the vote shall be sible to do. A proposition offered in Committee taken. I therefore accept the motion of the gen- of the Whole cannot be referred to any committee tleman from Onondaga [Mr. Alvord]. outside. This does not propose to do that. It Mr. MURPHY —The position in which I un- only proposes to refer resolutions which may be derstood this resolution to stand when I spoke a offered. few moments ago has now been changed by the Mr. MURPHY - That may possibly be the amendment which has been offered by the gentle- proper construction of this resolution. I think it maa from Onondaga [Mr. Alvord] and accepted by well however, that there should be no doubt upon the original mover of the resolution. In that form the subject; and I therefore propose to offer an I am constrained to oppose it. I cannot consent amendment to come in at the end of the resoluin advance, to limit and restrict the action of this tion, as follows: Convention upon the different propositions which "But nothing herein contained shall limit the all be submitted to them in regard to the amend- power of the Convention, in the Committee of the ment of the Constitution. We are, by the law Whole, in the consideration of any subject, to so uadr which we are assembled here, authorized amend the article under consideration, as to subtl submit to the people, either as a whole mit the same to the people separately." | ii a t pArodp ions, the diffrent matters I do not:cnow that I have anything more to add 897 upon this subject. But I wish to have the deter- vote for suffrage to the colored men. Many other rination of the Convention with regard to the gentlemen have spoken on the subject. A vote in proposition which I had the honor to submit, and form has been taken upon the question. We now the other proposition which I have already inti- find that all that action practically goes for mated that I intended to propose in such event. nothing. It is claimed here that thus far As regards other matters, it will be time enough we have not advanced a single step upon when they come up for consideration in the Con- the question as to whether this proposition, vertirn. for us to adopt this resolution. or any other, shall be submitted separately for the Mr. SPENCER-When the question of a sepa- consideration of the people. We find, on lookrate submission was first introduced in Con- ing at the law which authorized the calling of the mittee of the Whole by the gentleman from Convention, that this question of separate submisDutchess [Mr. Carpenter], on the proposition to sion by the framers of the act, is placed in juxtasubmit an amendment in relation to a qualifica- position, with the other propositions upon which tion requiring the ability to road and write, I we are to act-which relate to matters of form took occasion to deprecate tlie introduction of' the merely-to the mode of publishing the Constitudiscusion of any question for a separate submis tion which we may adopt, or the amendments, sion in the discussions of the Committee of the wlich we may recommend, to the form of the Wlole, apprellending as I did. and as the expe- ballot, and to the notice to be given to the rience of almost the past two weeks has proved. electors. It is found among those matters, that it would occupy the time of the committee and it properly belongs there. Now. Mr. to the exclusion of the discussion of the proper President, I have another reason for favoring subject before the committee. And I here wisl the resolution of the gentleman from St. Lawrence to submit to the Convention, whether the law [NMr. Merritt] as amended by the proposition of under which we are assembled authorizes the dis- the gentleman from Onondaga [Mr. Alvord] and cussion of that question in that form. I now it is this. In the reports of the committee on the read from the fifth section of the law authorizinJ) subject of suffrage, which are before us, I find an the meeting of this Convention. The clause elaborate report by the minority of that committee, which reads as follows: devoted to the question as to whether the propo"~ 5. Tle said amendments or Constitution sition to extend suffrae to colored men, shall be shall be submitted by the Convention to the peo- submitted as a separate proposition to the people. pie. for their adoption or rejection, at the next jThe report closes with a resolution recommending general election, to be held on tle Tuesday next! that that form of submission shall be the one after the first Monday of November next, and adopted by the Convention. The report of the mievery person hereby entitled to vote for delegates nerity is entirely silent as to the right of the colored may, at that election, vote on such adoption or re- man to vote. Not one word is contained in it jection, in the election district in which lie shall against his right to vote. The report, like many then reside, and not elsewhere. The said amend- of the gentlemen who have spoken in favor of sepaments or the said Constitution sliall be voted upon rate msbmission, impliedly recognizes the right of as a whole, or in such separate propositions as the colored man to vote. The fact is, this questhe Convention shall deem practicable, and as the tion as to whether the right of the colored man Convention shall by resolution declare." to vote, shall be submitted separately, rests in the I suppose it to be impracticable that the Con-I mere caprice of the members of this Convention. vention, in Committee of the Whole, shall by a and for that reason I am in favor of postponing it resolution prescribe tle manner of submitting any until we take up questions which are matters of question before it to the people; but that, when form merely. I am not indifferent, in this aspect that question comes up to be determined, it must of the) case, to what has been said by gentlemen be by a resolution of the Convention. in the Committee of the Whole. I am aware Mr. LAPHASI-I am opposed to the amend- that the gentleman from Kings [Mr. Murphy] ment last offered by the gentleman from Kings and the gentleman from Rockland [Mr. Conger] and [Mr. Murphy], for tile reason that it is in direct, the gentleman fr9m New York [Mr. Larremore], contraven.tion of the amendment offered by tle three of those who have spoken, have spoken gentleman from Onondaga [Mr. Alvord]. Under against the right of the colored man to vote, but his amendment all resolutions on this subject but they are three exceptions. In all the other are to be referred to this committee without elaborate speeches which have been made here, debate in the body of the Convention. I beg not one word has been uttered against the right leave, sir, to differ respectfully from tlhe statement of the colored man to vbte. The question, I of the gentleman from Oneida [Mr. Kernan], that repeat it, is one partaking more of caprice than this question of separate submission has not thus anything else, and for that reason it should be, far occupied any considerable portion of the postponed, as tlis resolution will postpone it, attention of the Convention. I have not been an until we have adopted the fundamental articles inattentive listener to the proceedings of this or the amendments which we are to recommend, body, either in the Convention or in Committee of and the question shall come up as to the manner the Whole, and I call the attention of the gentle- in which they are to be submitted to the people. man from Oneida [,Mr. Kernan] to the fact that Mr. E. BROOKS-I move that the considerathree at least of the most elaborate speeches tion of this resolution be postponed until the secwhich have been made in the Committee of the ond Wednesday in August. Whole, have been made exclusively upon this Mr. MERRITT-We do not know how long the question of separate submission, and made by sessions of this Convention will last. It is con. gentlemen who have avowed their intention to ceded it is very proper such a committee should 398 be raised. There has been no reason submitted, T not be willing to put it in-the Constitution without in my judgment, why that committee should not knowing whether it was to be submitted ns a part be raised now. I am, therefore, opposed to the of the Constitution. or as a separate proposition. postponement of the consideration of this resolu- So as to other propositions; arid, if I understand tion, and I hope that we will now decide definitely right, it is claimed that unless this amendment whether we shall act upon it, and for that purpose of the gentleman from Kinrs [Mr. Murphy] is I shall cail the ayes and noes, on the motion to adopted, then that the resolution will prevent the postpone. determination by the Convention at the time of Mr. KERNAN - I desire to make a suggestion. action upon a particular article, whether it slall If the resolution was a simple one to raise a corn- be submitted as a part of the Constitution, or as mittee, to report as to the arrangement and sub- a separate proposition. It seems to me, thereftre, mission of the Constitution, or parts of it not that we are making, in advance, with that conotherwise determined by the Convention, I could struction, a committee which really ties up many see no objection. But my otbjctiou is that, under gentlemen as to their votes, and ties up the entire the name of appointing a committee to devise as Convention from discussing whetler they will or to the manner and mode of submission, gentlemen will not submit a proposition separately. I trust, avow that they propose to prevent any discussion tlerefore, that with tlat construction of the resoor consideration in the Convention or committee, lutiou, it will not be adopted without amendment. if they can, of the separate submission, of Mr. VAN CAMPIN — I am opposed to the any particular provision of the Constitution. amendment of the gentleman from Kings [MIr. Now, it places gentlemen in an awkward position. Murphy], for tile very reasor that at this stage of There may be, and I presume there are, many tile proceedings I am opposed to being foreclosed in gentlemen here who are entirely willing to pro- my action in regard to questions of that character. pose for submission to the people of an article to I am not able to say now wlether I want to subthe Constitution in regard to the question tinder mit the question separately or not, and phall not consideration of the Committee of the Whole. be able Iutil r see tle work of this ConvenThe PrESIDENT-The Chair must ask the tion. As to the question of submission separgentleman to confine himself to the question of the ately or joint, whether the colored man should postponement. vote or not, it has been assumed in the ConvenMr. KERNAN-In regard tothat, I do not de- tion tlat the party with which I act have desire to make any remarks. cided that they will not submit tile question of A sufficient number seconding the call, the ayes colored suffrage separately. I voted against and noes were ordered. tlie amendment of the gentleman from Kings The question was then put on the motion of [MNr. Murphy], proposing to submit that separMr. Brooks, and it was declared lost by the fol- ately. I do not wish to be understood, and lowing vote: it must not be understood that by that vote I Ayes-Messrs Barto, E. Brooks. Burrill, Cas- committed myself one way or the other upon sidy, Champlain, Chesebro, Comstock, Conger, tho question. I must lave that well underCorbett, Corning, Curtis. Develin, Gross, Hitchmar, stood. It is the part of wisdom, in this ConKernan, Larremore, Livingston, Lowrey, Magee, vention, to postpone all questions with regard Masten, Mattice, Morris, Murphy, Paige, A. J. to submission as a whole or in separate parts unParker, Robertson, Rolfe, Roy, Schlell, Schoon- til the action of this Convention lias advanced to maker, Schumaker, Seymour, Strong, Tappen, such a stage that we may wisely judge of the proS. Townsend, Tucker, Weed, Wickham, Young- priety of submitting it as a whole or in parts. 89. Mr. CLINTON-I understand the effect of Noes-Messrs. A. F. Allen, C. L. Allen, N. M. this resolution perhaps differently from other genAllen, Alvord, Andrews, Baker, Ballard, Barker. tlemen, and I wish, it I am wron(, to be corrected Barnard, Beckwith, Bell, Bickford, E. A. Brown. about it, because my vote depends on its meaning, W. C. Brown, Carpenter, Case, Clinton,Cooke, Daly, or the way in whichl I understand its meaning. Duganne, C. C. Dwight,.T W. Dwight, Ely, End- Now, I understand that this resolution, and the ress, Evarts, Ferry, Field, Folger, Fowler, Francis. amendments to it, as proposed, look only to, and Frank, Fuller, Goodrich, Gould, Grant, Graves, include only the perfected work of the Convention Greeley, Hadley, Hale, Hammond, Hand, Harden- -that it refers to and includes only such amendburgh, Hitchcock, Houston, Huntington, Hutclins. ments of the Constitution as have been acKinney, Krum, Laudon, Lapham, A. LawreUce, tually passed upon and adopted by the Conven. M. H. Lawrence, Ludington, McDonald, Merritt. tion, and goes no step further. That it has Merwin, Miller, C. E. Parker, Pond, Potter, Presi- no tendency whatever to prevent the Convent sident, Prindle, Rathbun, Reynolds, Root. Rurnsey. tion from acting in two directions upon any L. W. Russell, Seaver, Silvester, Sheldon, Sler- proposition, and that it still remains compeman, Smith, Spencer, Stratton, Van Campen, Van tent for any member of the Convention to ask it Cott, Wakeman, Wales, Williams-78. to act upon the proposition, first in one and tuen Mr. KERNAN -If it is not postponed, I hope in the other of these directions. Now, to make the amendment of the gentleman from Kings [Mr. myself clear, by an example. I apprehend that Murphy] will be adopted, otherwise gentlemen this question of the extension of the right of sufwill be placed in this position. Gentlemen who frage to females equally with males, which has may be willing to submit, as a separate proposi- been presented to this Convention-I suppose that tion, the proposition as to female suffrage and who that proposition is lost. Then this committee will are entirely willing to mature such an article and to have nothing to do with it; but this resolution subm i it to the people separately, very likely would under consideration prevents those who favor 399 female suffrage from introducing to the Convention another proposition, and that is, that it shall ble submitted to the people directly, irrespective of tile Convention and its determination whether or not they will incorporate such an amendment in their Constitution. Mr. MASTIEN- I would ask the gentleman from Erie [Mr. Clinton] whether the question whether or not a certain thi.lg shall be done, which is to be submitted to the people, does not involve separate submission? Mr. CLINTOuN-I suppose not, and if the question be answered the other way it answers my question. I suppose this, Mr. President, although I may be wrong, that the Convention may possibly be in doubt upon a question, and choose even where they are opposed to introducing it directly into the Constitution, to refer the question to the people. Mr. ALVORD-I merely wish to say, in so many words, that with the usual adroitness and skill of iny friend from Kings [Mr. Murphy] he has introduced a proposition wlich, upon its face may appear entirely fair, bult when gentlemen find they have voted for it to be incorporated in this resolution they will find they have not voted for the original resolution. Mr. A. J. PARKI:R-I am entirely satisfied with this resolution as it stood on the substitute offered by thegentleman from New York [Mr. Hutclliis], but since the amendment has been adopted, offered by the gentleman from Onondaga [Mr. Alvord]. which would have tle effect of precluding all discussion, I think, upon the question of submitting different propositions to the people, by referring them at once to this committee, it seems to me important that the amendment of the gentleman from Kings [Mr. Murphy] should also be adopted. It will not do to preclude discussion upon this subject. The mere appointment of the committee at this time cannot be objectionable. I see no reason why this committee might not have been appointed when the other committees were appointed, as a standing committee, and resolutions might be referred to it, not of course and not precluding debate, but upon the order of the Convention, as resolutions are referred to the other committees. The committee should be organized, in my judgment, and it should receive such questions as are sent to it by the Convention; but I think the Convention at the same time should reserve the right to discuss fully and fairly any proposition that may be brou ght there, and the question whether the proposition shall be submitted separately to the people; for there are propositions, undoubtedly, which we will agree to adopt upon a separate submission, but which we will not consent to adopt by incorporating them into the body of the Constitution. Those of us, who sincerely desire to make the best possible Constitution, one which shall receive the approbation of the people, cannot consent to incorporate into it a proposition of doubtful character, which may lead to the rejection of the entire Constitution. I hope, therefore, this Convention will not tie its own hands, will not deprive itself of the right of considering such questions as shall be presented with regard to the propriety of a separate submission; but either that the mover of this resolution will adhere to the substitute as offered by the gentleman from New York [Mr. Hutchins], or that the amendment ffered by the delegate from Kings [Mr. Murphy] will be adopted in the resolution. If; in any form, a separate proposition can be presented for the raising of a committee to which these matters can be referred. I should prefer it, but I shall vote against any resolution which precludes discussion upon any of these separate propositions. Mr. CONGER-When this resolution was first offered by the gentleman from New York [Mr. Hutchins] I submitted to him the question whether it was designed to cut off the action of this Convention, as in Convention or in Committee of the Whole upon the existing question in Committee of the Whole. Subsequently, the gentleman from Onondaga [Mr. Alvord], avowed that it would have that effect But lie has since said that inasmuch as a proposition was submitted by the gentleman from Kings [Mr. Murphy] for a separate submission of his proposition, or of some proposition, that the gentleman from Kings [Mr. Murply] had a vested right to present that question to the Convention when the Committee of the Whole should rise and report on the whole subject. Now, I would like to ask the gentleman from Ollondaga [Mr. Alvord] whether, when that proposition comes into the Convention, it can be amended, so that some other proposition could be submitted to the people? Mr. ALVORD- I trust not. Mr. CONGE - Very well. Now, then, clearly the whole object of this resolution, at this time, is to prevent the submission in Committee of the Whole, or in the Convention, of any modification of the original proposition of the gentleman from Kings [Mr. Murphy]. That proposition was that there should be submitted to the people the question of negro suffrage, based upon property qualifications. I was a little surprised that my friend from Ontario [Mr. Lapham] should have supposed from any remarks I made last night, that I was opposed entirely to negro suffrage. I thought I distinctly said that I did not propose to disfranchise a single person who already exercised that right, but that I designed to submit some other proposition, as an amendment to the proposition of the gentleman from Kings [Mr. Murply], or a substitute for it, that in my judgment would place the proper question before the people as a proposition separately to be submitted. Now, Mr. President, I consider that it is right and proper that at some time this Convention should agree to refer certain propositions on which it is acting to the committee of fifteen. I do not rise here now to oppose, directly or indirectly, the propriety of a reference of every proposition that has been matured in Committee of the Whole to this committee of fifteen for final revision, and I agree with the gentleman who spoke here that it would be unfair to infer, from any vote which is or might be taken, that any gentleman is concluded; from changing his vote towards the close of the session on any proposition for a separate submission. But I think I can show clearly that the only effect of this proposition at this time is simply to take 400 this single question, as to the manner in which the suffrage is to be determined, out of the power of the Committee of the Whole, to entertain any proposition in regard to it, and that the whole effect of the resolution is to send every matter involving the question of a separate submission directly to this committee of fifteen, without any vote upon it. I consider that this is unfair. I think that if, before the Convention had gone into the question of suffrage, it had been distinctly announced that they would cut off every proposition for a separate submission, and send every such proposition to a committee on final revision, that would have been a fair notice. But, now, when only one form and proposition for separate submission has been presented and voted upon in the committee, to conclude all other forms and to send them to this committee of fifteen, the "tomb of the Capulets" for all such propositions, I think it is unfair, I will also say I think it is ungenerous. I do not know what may b3 the pleasure of the Convention iu regard to the proposition of the gentleman from Kings [Mr. Murphy], but it was my purpose to submit an amendment, and if that is voted down, I now desire to submit the following addition to the resolution, by way of amendment: " Provided, however, that this resolution shall When the report of the committee is made, and the subject shall come up before the Conven. tion, or be taken up in Committee of the Whole, the learned gentleman from Schenectady [Mr. Paige], and every other member of the Convention, will have full opportunity to present every topic which they wish to have discussed. Unless this is done we shall debate these propositions over and over again in Committee of the Whole, when we are considering these subjects on tleir merits and then renew and reiterate debate wvien we come to the final proposition of the committee. It is sinmply a question of the order of business. Mr. SEYMOUR-I tlink the gentleman from Ontario. [Mr. Lapham] must be mistaken with reference to shortening tlhe time of the Convention by the adoption of the resolution wliich lie has advocated. This question of separate submission of articles of the Constitution may occur with regard not only to one or two, but with regard to any article that may be proposed to be inserted in it. A case was stated the other day by a gentleman on this floor where the State of MIlssachusetts, in amending its Constitution had proposed nine distinct amendments, and that each one sliould be presented separately to the people. Now. there may be and I tlhink there will be by the time we shall not be construed as a special order to prevent. get through ald establish what these articles are either in Committee of tlie Whole or in Couven- to be, a prevailing opinion that more thl n one tion, the presentation or consideration of any article that is proposed to go into tlis Constitution proposition for a separate submission to the people should be separately submitted. I will assume of this State, or the calling for a vote thereon." tiat it may be so, and that discussion will be had Mr. PAIGE - I understand, sir, from the gentle-I pon all questions, and I would ask my friend from man from Onondaga [Mr. Alvord] that lie expresses Ontaro [Mr. Lapham] whether it would not be the opinion that no delegate in the Committee better, whether it would not he shortening time, of the Whole on the qulestion of the right of and ficilitating the business of tiis Coinvention. if suffrage should be permitted to offer any propo- the discussion should come up when the subjectsition presenting in a different form the amend- matter of tile amendment is before the Convenment of the gentleman from Kings [Mr. Murplly] tion. If it is deferred until tlese questions shall which was offered in Committee of the Whole. be presumed to have been settled by the voice of If that, sir, is to be thle effect of this resolution, the Convention, and then the report of the comit is presenting this principle, that the Convention mtttee which is proposed to be raised shall has in its power, when any amendment of the be brought in, I cannot see why we would Constitution is reported or presented, to deny to not be subjected upon tile various motions every delegate the right to present any proposition that may be made to amend that report, and to amendatory of it, to cut off all propositions to amend submit one, and another, and another of these and perfect the article so presented. If this, sir,.Amendments and separately to another discussion, is the effect of the resolution I cannot conceive just like that which has detained this Convention a proposition presented to this Convention that is for tlh e past two weeks. I think the qulestion of -s) radically objectionable. I cannot conceive any the separate submission of an article will be better proposition of so arbitrary and so despotic a char- discussed, and will be discussed in a shorter time, acter. It interferes essentially with the rights if that shall be taken in Committee of the Whole and the privileges and powers of delegates as when we have that article before us, and are dis. representing their constituency. If a delegate is cussing it. What are the arguments in favor of to be precluded, in Committee of the Whole or in tle submission of any article, and from what Convention, from offering an amendment to any source are they drawn? They are drawn from proposition presented for the amendment of the the character of tie amendments. they are drawn Constitution, it is the denial of the highest privi- from the supposed favor or disfavor with which lege that we possess. If this is to be the con- that amendment, if adopted, will be received by struction of this proposition, I trust, and I should the people. They are drawn, in fact, from the hope that the majority of this Convention would general nature of the subject itself, and I, for one, reject it. without any reference whatever to the particular Mr. LAPHAM-I desire to say, in answer to the question of suffrage that has occupied the attonsuggestion of the honorable gentleman from Sche- tion of this committee nnd the Convention so long, neetady [Mr. Palge], that thlero is in the resolution would prefer to discuss such a question, ard I no denittl of any right whatever to a delegate to could discuss it more intelligently and in a shorter ofer his proposition. It is simply a question relat- space of time if I were to discuss it in coning the order of our business, and nothing else, nection with the merits of the proposition itself. 401 I look upon this as a saving of time, and the facili- servation; I am apprehensive of their fate; and tating of the business of this Convention. When it is for that reason alone that I am anxious that the report of tile proposed committee shall come tlie majority of this Convention shall not peril the in, you may move to amend it, to be sure; but in work we are about to do, by making it a order to do that, you have got to go over the same condition with tile electors of this State to accept ground that has beet gotne over again and again. tile new Constitution with this provision in in the discussion upon this proposition in comllit. respect to negro suffrage in it or no new tee, and I prefer, fbr one, that we should consider Constitution at all. If thle idea of incortlhese questions as we pass on, and complete the porating the provision in the body of the instruconsideration of them, 1and not be compelled to ment is suggested to gentlemen as a natter of politirecur to thoen again from time to time. cal policy, in my humble judgment tley will find it Mr. GREIELI;Y-It is a mistake of the gentle- to be a very great mistake; and there is no better man [Mr. Seymour]-a vital mistake-that we proof of that tlan tlle fate in tlis State, of the party shall have as many proposals for separate sub- tllat insisted from political reasolls upon inserting mission to discuss if we pass as if we reject this certain provisions in tile Constitntion of 1846, in resolution. We are disculssing from day to day such a form. that we are now called upon to restore the propriety of sulmitting to tile people amend- it to its past condition. The consequenlce followments to the Constitution which may never be ing that w(ork in this State, was the removal made. In case this resolution is adopted, we from powerof the party that fiamedit: and nothing shall consider and debate only tie question of will be gained iln this body nor ir a: other body, separately suibmitting tliose propositions which by frambig the fundamental law of ttie State with this Convention shall have adopted in tl1is Con- reference to the exigencies of any party, whether stitution. We shall probably lnot have more than it happens to be in the majority or in the minority two separate submissions to discuss instead of of tlis Convention; and any movement, having its having a discussion on the separate submission o! foundation in such a cause, wlietler it proceeds each provision liere before its adoption it) Com- from the party to which I belong or whether it mittee of the Whole, and before i.s adoption in proceeds from those who compose thle majority of Convention. this Convention, will have uo sympathy from Mr. DALY-I beg leave to differ with the mte. I r-nst sincerely feel that this is gentlemen fiom Westchester [AMr. Greeley.] The a very (.ve and important question, and I proposition under discussion is whether tlie pro- do earnestly hlope that gentlemen wlho conposed provision in the Constitution we are about trol the action of the Convention, will not preclude to frame, shall be incorporated into the body the possibility of discussing that question at some of tile instrument to be submitted to the people future stage of our proceedings. Tlhe gentleman for tleir ratification, or whether it shall be from Ontario [Mr. Lapham] says it is simply a submitted as a separate matter to be decided question of the order of business. ITe is right in by a vote of the electors, a;nd with their approval a certain sense, but it will become the last order of to become a part of tlre Constitution. As one utsiness wlen everythliig else is finished. But having little feeling or sympathy with the existinog this is so important a question, with reference to provision, so far as it imnposes a property qualifi- its relaticns to the Constitution itself, that I feel, cation or makes it depend upon a distinction of with the gentleman from Rensselaer [Mr. Seycolor, I have abstained from any active participa- mour], that tlre true mode of disposing of that tion in the debate, though, at the same time, I have teatlre is to dispose of it in connection with the felt the deepest interest on the question of the subject-matter. and not leave it until tle last stage submission of this provision to the people. I have of business of the Convention. then to revive all felt that interest, not from anytlling arising from thle discussions that have taken place. Thle matthe question itself, but from a conviction in my ter is now fresh in our minds, and many be dismind, tllat tlhe faiir work of this Convention wili posed of, one way or the other. go for notling if tllat provision is unconditionally Mr. COMSTOCK-I suppose it will be in incorporated in it. I do rot mean to say thal order for me to ask tile President of tile Convenmy judgment in this matter is infallible; I.ion what will be the construction of the resolumerely mrean to say that it is fairly and honestly rion without the amendment of the gentleman exercised, and that I have no sympathy with tlh t'rom Kings [Mr. Murphy]. Will or will it not causes which lead to that jrldgment. It is my take from the Convention or the Committee of tlhe impression tlat a large portion of the people of Whlole the power to consider the question of a this State have views upon tlhat suhject, very separate submission in connection with any pardifferent from mine, and that we shiall array lictllar propositiot for constitutional amendments? against thle Constitution, \ea shall frame ai Tlhe PRE.SIDENT - Te Chair will respectfully amount of organized resistance that will inform the gentleman from Onondaga [Mr. Comrender its adootnon exceedingly doubtful. ] stock] that lie can give no obiter decision. believe, Mr. President, from wlhat I have When a case arises calling for the decision of the seen here, tlat we are about to adopt a good Con- Cllair, it will endeavor to give it. stitlltion. I thirk we Iiave never had suca]l n op- Mr. COMSTOCK — I should he in favor of the portunity in the hIistory of the State to make a resolution with a proper understanding of it. Constitution which will tend to the perpetuation But I am opposed to it if by its adoption this and preservation of our republican institutions. Convention abdicates its own power. When There are very many important provisions in- [ vote for a constitutional amendment to be incorvolved, necessary reforms to be incorporated in porated into tlhe body of the Constitution to be subthat Constitution, and I am jealous of their pre- mitted collectively, it is because I favor that 51 402 amendment. It is necessarily implied that I approve that amendment and am willing to put it into the body of the Constitution. But, sir, I am willing to vote for another proposition which I do not necessarily approve, for the purpose of sending it to the people to be voted upon separately. The question of female suffrage, when that arises in the Convention and I am called upon to vote for it, if I do not know that it is to be separated from the body of the Constitution, as at present advised, I am not prepared to vote for the proposition. But, if I know at the time, when the question is before the Convention that the Convention will send it to the people as a distinct and separate proposition, I think I may vote for such a submission without committing myself upon the merits of the subject one way or the other. The same illustration may be made with reference to various propositions which may well come before this Convention. I think, therefore, that the adoption of the resolution, without something like the amendment offered by the gentleman from Kings [Mr. Murphy], will tend very much to embarrass the deliberations of this Convention. Mr. ALVORD-On the question of determining whether we shall or shall not separate and divide the propositions which we shall complete in this Convention, I wish to stand in a different position from the gentleman from Onondaga [Mr. Comstock], who has just addressed this Convention. Sir, I hold it to be my duty, absolutely, not to send to the people of this State any proposition which does not meet my hearty approbation and which I am not free to support and sustain. That is the position I occupy, and I occupy none other. Whatever may be the action of other gentlemen in this Convention, I will not vote for a submission to the people of New York of any question that I do not myself believe from my inmost heart to be the duty of the people of the State of New York, as well as my own to sustain and support. And now, sir, a little farther in reference to this proposition of the gentleman from Kings [Mr. Murphy]. That proposition results in an entire abrogation-in an evis* ceration of the resolution to which it is proposed to be attached. It takes away from it all power to accomplish what is intended by it. It might as well read that no resolution shall be passed on this subject. Its result is this: that gentlemen will have passed a resolution for a particular purpose and then have stultified themselves-backed down from their position by adopting the amendment of the gentleman from Kings [Mr. Murphy]. Mr. MURPHY - The motives which the gentleman attributes to me are such as I never intended. I do not think my amendment "eviscerates" the resolution so as to render it a nullity. My amendment restores the resolution to what it was as it was offered by the gentleman from St. Lawrence [Mr. Merritt]. In my judgment it is a proper amendment to be passed by this Convention, with this resolution. As proposed by the gentleman from Onondaga [Mr. Alvord] in his amendment, this question of a separate submission is to be left until the close of the proceedings of this Convention. The question of a separate submission is not to be considered by the committee of fifteen until the Convention shall have nearly completed its labors, because the resolution provides that all the articles and propositions which are to be determined upon by this Convention shall be referred to that committee to be examined and reported upon. We shall have gone through the whole order of business in this Convention, considered all the topics that are to be embraced in the Constitution before this committee will be called upon to act; and then in the last stage of our proceedings they are to consider and to report upon the subject of a separate submission. How much time they may have, and how much dilligence they will use, we cannot say; we know in the last stages of the life of any deliberative body like this, there is always haste to close the deliberations, and the proper consideration of a subject at that time is not bestowed. There will not be time enough for them to consider the propositions which will be submitted; and I ask whether it is proper and statesmanlike to leave the consideration of this important matter to the short period, which will be necessarily left after this Convention shall have concluded their chief labors. Mr. McDONALD-Will the gentleman [Mr. Murphy] allow me to ask him a question? Which does the gentleman consider the most important, what shall be submitted, or whether it shall be submitted separately? Mr. MURPHY-In regard to the alternative which the gentleman [Mr. McDonald] has presented, I suppose that which is submitted is the most important. Mr. McDONALD-Then will the gentleman [Mr. Murphy] inform me why we should not first consider that subject? Mr. MURPHY - The gentleman asked me which I consider the most important. I consider submission also important, though I think the suggestion has no relation to the matter that I am now discussing. Mr. McDONALD —What I wish to know is whether the less important subject should not be last considered? Mr. MURPHY -I do not choose to answer every impertinent inquiry. I do not mean impertinent in an offensive sense, but impertinent to the subject I am discussing. I was about to remark that the proper object of a resolution of this kind, it seems to me, is to submit to such a committee the different articles as they are passed upon in this Convention in order that they may arrange them both in matter of form and matter of language; this they can do as each article is passed upon and perfected substantially by the Convention. That is the proper object of a resolution of this kind, and such I supposed was its object as proposed by its mover [Mr. Merritt]. Now, it seems to me, Mr. President, that the purpose of the resolution as amended is to shirk the record. We have had here under consideration for a week or ten days this very important proposition-the one of all others which we deem, or at least those who think with me, deem proper to be submitted to the people, and yet we have had no vote upon it. The gentleman from Onondaga [Mr. Alvord] is wrong when he says that there io already a record on 403 that question. We have had no record. We have considered the question merely in Committee of the Whole, and we have taken a vote not by yeas and nays, but by a division of the Committee. How gentlemen stand upon this question we do not know, and we cannot tell until the report of the committee shall be made to the Convention, and this amendment shall be renewed, and the yeas and nays taken under the rules of the Convention. Adopt this resolution and the purpose at all events will be effected of having no record made upon this question now. I remark again that I consider this the most important question to come before us. I introduced it early in the discussions of the Convention; but whatever is to be its determination upon this question, I can see no objection to its consideration in connection with the discussion of the report. The reasons which are given are that there will be discussion upon submitting all the different propositions and articles which may come up, and thus the time of the Convention will be consumed by the repetition of the argument already made to the question now under consideration in Committee of the Whole. I am anxious and desirous that a vote should be taken on that proposition, and my amendment proposes that that shall be saved for this resolution, and of course, upon the general principles which I have advanced it would also be saved in regard to all other articles which may be considered separately. The gentleman from Ontario [Mr Lapham] says that this is a mere question of the order of business. It is not, sir, a matter of the order of business. It is a matter, in my judgment, which affects the right of every delegate in this COnvention, and the honorable gentleman might as well propose in so many words that every amendment coming from the minority of this body should be submitted to that committee of fifteen to be reported upon at their pleasure. I am in favor of a free and full discussion of all topics. I am willing to meet the majority upon every question, but I wish gentlemen who are opposed to me may be put on the record also, in order that the people may understand where each and every member stood on the various propositions which shall have come beforb the Convention. Mr. RATHBUN -I do not intend to occupy the time of the Convention but for a moment. It seems to me that the course of argument adopted by gentlemen on the other side, ignores the fact which stares every member of the Convention in the face, and which meets every man who looks at the business of this Convention directly, and presents to him the two sides of this question as debated. On the part of those who object to the resolution, some say they want to debate the question; and that this is a " great question;" and they want a "record made upon the great question;" they want gentlemen of the Convention to come up here and record themselves and show that they are not afraid. Governor Seward once said, out in Minnesota, when speaking about the war in the South, "who's afeared?" After he got back to Washington, among Southern senators, it turned out that he was himself ' afeared to speak." I say that if gentlemen want to record themselves -if they want to make a record, they should have that privilege. I was sent here for that very thing and I believe other gentlemen also. There need be no apprehension about the record-we will make a record-and a clean record in the progress of this business. The idea of being charged with endeavoring to " stifle debate " or to " shirk responsibility " is not decorous for any body. I would not say that of any gentleman of this Convention, although I would not find very much fault with any gentleman who should say it of me, for I think he will find out before we get through with the business of the Convention, that he is mistaken. On the one hand we see (I mean those who believe in having order in the proceedings of the Convention), a gentleman who wants to debate this question; another gentleman over yonder thinks that it is orderly and profitable to discuss the proposition in regard to each provision as we go along and determine whether we would submit that separately. That Is the proposition which is now before the Convention. The gentleman from Rensselaer [Mr. Seymour] thinks it is a waste of time to cut off these debates in connection with the topic which shall be discussed and argued in regard to each and every proposition as to whether it shall go into the body or shall be a part of the tail of the Constitution; that is, section by section and article by article, we are to discuss as we go along the two questions, always in connection. One is, is the thing proper to go into the Constitution at all, and the other is, shall it go into the body of it, or shall it go on the outside of the body? How long will it take to discuss those various propositions in this manner? We have spent ten days here in discussing a single proposition, and mainly upon the point whether it shall be submitted separately. Now, we are to take this as a sample, and each proposition is to be discussed by itself and to be marked as an inside passenger or an outside passenger as we go along. Then we are to have a committee appointed to report to us in regard to the arrangement of the Constitution by articles and by sections, and then when it is all arranged by articles and sections we can look at it as a whole. Then we will see that we have wasted a great deal of time in discussing the question whether this article, or that, should go into the body of the Constitution or go outside. And after we have wasted all that time, perchance, we shall not agree upon anything-then what? What an enormous amount of apprehension and fear and trembling has been wasted upon this floor. Now, I can say to gentlemen of the Convention, that I believe that those who intend to vote for a change in the suffrage, intend to permit the fullest discussion of the question as to how that question shall be submitted, and that they intend that every gentleman in this Convention shall speak until his wind is broken if he chooses [laughter]; and then we will decide, those who agree on one side voting in one way, and those on the other side voting, the other, and the majority will rule. I have not determined how 1 shall vote upon that question, but I apprehend that I shall make up my mind by the time the discussion takes place. On the other hand, it is claimed that each section should be taken up, one by one, and examined, and one by one settled, and when they are settled 404 and ready,to put them into the fabric we are to erect for the purpose of making a complete work; and having thus proceeded in order, we complete our work and lay it before the Convention, ready to be disposed of. How shall it be done? We say that it is not now for us to look at and examine and see what part of it shall go in the body of the instrument. I submit that at the proper time no one wants to prevent debate and cut off discussion on that point; but I desire to cut off argument and declamation as to which of these articles shall go into the Constitution, and statements that tlie people will not agree to this or to that. But you have got to go to the people. Everybody knows tllat all this must be submitted to the people. It amounts to nothing until it is submitted and passed upon by them. It is for the Convention to determine at the proper time whether we have anything to submit, and say then how shall it be determined, and then take out such Darts as are necessary to be sulbmitted separately. I submit, Mr. President, that there is but one way to proceed in regard to this business in an orderly manner so as to reach the ultimate object at which we aim, and that is to proceed to discuss the provisions of the Constitution as we go along, until we get the whole thing( ready for the hands of the committee to put it in proper form and shape. and then the question will arise, how shall this be submitted? On that, the most free, the most liberal and the most independent discussion is the right of the members of the Convention, and I apprehend that members will not be deprived of that enjoyment. [Laughter.] Mr. TILDEN-I am one of those who have taken no part in this discussion (of the negro siuffrage), and I have at no time designed to say anything on the sutlject, until what is properly the preliminary question-tlle mode in which the proposed amendment in regard to suffrage is to be submitted-should be disposed of by the action of this Convention. But it seems to me that in respect to that there is a fallacy lurking in thle argument of my friend [ Mr. Hutcllins], who introduced this resolution, and it surprises me that it is not apparent to so astute and keen an intellect as he possesses. It isthis, sir. If we vote on this qtestion without determining whether we are to submit the change separately or not.it incorporates the provision into the Constitution that is to be submitted, and rn tfurther action of this body on it is necessary at all to dispose of that question; it disposes of tile whole matter finally. I take it, sir. that every section presented here and voted upon finally and adopted, becomes a part of one entire Constitution to be submitted to the people, unless there be action to the contrary by this Convention. I suppose tlat results as a matterof course. I suppose that rentlemen who are willing to vote to submit a proposition to the people which they are not inl favor of incorporating inl the Constitution. and submitting as an entire body, have no way to express their opinion except to vote against the adoption of that clause. Sir, 1 do not think mny old and valued friend from Cayuga [Mr. Bathbull] is right in supposingthat there is alny danger that we sh;ll discuss all the various propositions here made in regard to their mode of sulbmision. I do not understand that anybody proposes to make a submission in more than three or four parts. My individual judgment when I came here was that in regard to the suffrage question, it had so connected itself with old controversies and with controversies now existing in another part of the country, that if we wished to elevate the action of this committee out of the influence of tho.e controversies we could do so. I trusted we should oe able to do so by a unanimous vote in submitting the clause calculated to promote that sort of discussion, in a separate amendment. In regard to the amendment of the judiciary so far as the court of appeals is concerned, certainly, and perhaps the entire amendment, it is my individual and personal judgment, although I iave no knowledge or ground to form an opinion as to the result this body would arrive at, that it would be expedient to submit that also as a separate matter for the reason that if it should so happen that we should fail ill respect to other parts of this Constitution to suit public expectations, we could yet meet the general arid almost universal demand there is to relieve the court of appeals of the great burden which it now feels itself unable to satisfactorily discharge. Furrther than that I do not see any occasion for a separate submission, although it is quite possible that somebody might propose another subdivision to which I might feel willing to assent. I, sir, have no possible motive except to extricate this Convention from the danger it woldd be in of drawing this Constitution within the irritating and exciting controversy tliat prevails in other parts of the country and which have prevailed in this. Assembling as we do here to reform the Constitution of the greatest State in the Union, a State wlich, as I observed the other day, comprises a population larger than the entire population of the United States when the Convention of 17.77 was in session, comprising a vastly larger variety of interests, and having a dirty to perform of tile higlest magnitude which man can undertake, it seems to me eminently desirable that if we should extricate this work from anything upon which we were pretty sure to differ, and should sit here like wise men, and candid men, and statesmen, and endeavor to revise the other parts of the Constitiution, and make it what it ought to be for this great State-wlhat it uniht to be also becau e it vill be an example in other States Sir, there recurs to me a singular incident illustrating the extent to which our constitutional regulations have tbeen copied in other States. It happened to me in the Convention of 1846 that an article oni corporations had been baffled to and fro without coming to a result satisfactory to anybody; and it was sent to a select committee of which I was chairman. That committee decided on the adoption of one provision tliat I was not able at that time to understand and never have been able to understand since I reported it as they ordered it and it became i part of the fundamnetal law. A short time after that I was passing through Albany and I heard a very curious discussion in the Senate as to the meaning of that provision. On my returning to New York I met the author of it. and I fobud him as nmuch puzzled as the Senate had been or as I had been. But, sir, that article, clause for clause, 405 word for word, and letter for letter. stands in the cisely as they did then if the gentleman is satisConlstltutionll of seven different States of this tied withlit. We will let the clause now in the Unlion. It illustrates to 'wh.at extent our example Constitution stand until tile close of tile C Invenis likely to be followed in other States. I corsid- tion, and then we will submit the proposition to er, therefore, that we have a most august and im- enllarge tle suffrage. We will follow tile preceportant duty to perform, and for my part, unmoved dent. Sir, I have no personal feling about tlis by any colsiderrltion except my desire to fulfill question, except a desire that this Convention that trust to the utmost of my ability, rising, should get along in the most harmonious, usetul, as I think it does, above all other considerations and satisfactory manner witli its butsiness. I regret that could affect the action of men in this body and to be compelled, to enter into any discussion on remembering that I shall scarcely live under tile general question. But if we are to vote another Constitution of this State, and that all finally on tile adoption of a clause in the Constitutlose associations and that honorable pride that tion, it may be necessary that I say something in relhave clustered around my native State from spect to tile grounds upon which I put my vote. my childlhood are concerned in tile result of our Mr. ROBERTSON-I think that this is a fit work, I certainly desire to do everythinir in my occasion for us to look at tire chart by wlhich we power to accomplish tlat result in tlie most are to be guided in the government of our action satisfactory mimrner. I am not hlere to question there. If I nidlerstand arighlt tile proposition of any man's motives, or to arraign any man's the gentleman from Onondaga [Mr. Alvord], judgment, but I regret profoundly that this it is to have tile question of tlre separate Convention has not found itself able, by a little submission of the various amenidments to conference among tile leading gentlemen who rep- be proposed by this Convention, postponed until resent tle two great parties here, to have come to after we have all tlre propositions as adopted a result that would lhave witlidrawn tiis topic frori assembled in array before us, just as they have otur deliberations I thiik it could have been done. been carried by the Convention, and then we are to I think it is unfortunate thlat we have not been determine wlhetler they shall be separately submitable to do it. I am content. I certainly would be ted to tile people for their votes, or whether they quite content to have a reasonable postponement sihall be submitted in mass as a new Constitution. It of this question, provided that postponement did appears to me tlat this question has been disnot involve a decision beforeland of tile question cussed by all parties who lIave undertaken to po4tponed. But. sir, to be called upon to put this reason upon tlhe subject, as if we were collected clause in controversy into tire Constitution, to m;lke here to make a new Constitution, under authority it a part of an entire instrument, to vote on its of tile Legislature. for thie first time, infiuenced by adoption, so tliat if there be no other a(tion of tile present Constitution, as an existing institution, this body, and no other action is necessary, the simply as to its effect upon our votes, and by tle question is wlholly anid completely decided, does opinlions of tile people of this State in regard to their not seem to me to be tlhe best way to reserve the already established fundamental law. Tlre Constiquestion of separate submission. If we are finally tutionn of 1846 was formed under the authority of to aet upon the wlhole matter. I shall desire here- tlhe Legislature, which spontaneoursly ordered an after to submit the reasons which govern my vote election of delegates for the purpose of making an on tile main question. entirely new Cirostitution. There was no restric-.Mr. M. I. TOWNSEND-Will the gentleman tion in the act under which they assembled by from New York [Mr. Tilden]. allow me to ask which they were enjoined or advised to submit to him a question? Did not tile Convention of 1846, the people of tlis State any separate proposition of wiich tile gentleman, was a member, perfect wliich they might think proper to introduce by tile article upon suffrage according to tlie opinions way of amendment or as part of an entirely new of tile majority of that Convention, and leave tile Constitution. It would. therefore, have been novel discussion of the question of separate submission to submit, as an amendment to a prior Conuntil the coming in of the report of the committee. stitution. a separate proposition of a Convention to whom was referred tlhe question of tile mode collected together by authlority of the people of of submitting the Constitution? this State, for the purpose of forming an entirely Mr. TILDEN-I will answer my friend from new Constitution. We are not collected liere Rensselaer [Mr. M. I. Townsend]. Tlie question under any such revolutionary statute. We are of suffrage, and tlhe question of stubmission. in tle assembled in pursuance of that very Constitution Convention of 1846, were questions of very little of 1846, which has prescribed tlat after its trtal comparative consideration or importance. for twenty years tle Legislature should call Mr. M. I. TOWNSCND —I ask the fact, together, upon the summons of tlne people, delewhether they did not so perfect it? gates, not to reframe the entire Constitution, Mr. TILDEN —I have not quite done. The but, for the purpose of revising thlat Constituaction on that subject was deferred-tlhat is to tion as it stood, so that if. upon inspectiol say, action enlarging thle suffrage. The Constitu- and consideration, tlie united wisdom of tion was adopted in respect to negro suffrage as tlle delegates collected sllould so determine, it then stood. Does the gentleman [Mr M. I. amendments should be made to the Constitution Townsend] mean to propose that we sllall follow to be submited to the people. Before that prothat example now, and take the Constitution as vision we had been withllot any one of this kind. it is? We hladbeen obliged to fall back upon the origiMr. M. TOWNSEND-T propose nothing. I rial power of tlie people to change the government was asking how his friends did in 1846. as they thought proper through its most direct Mr. TILDEN'-Well, sir, we will do now pre- and effective representative, tho Legislature of 406 the State. We have now, as authority for our mission to the people of this State. It says meeting, the support given by the Constitution of that1846, which calls us together for a particular "In either case the Convention shall prescribe purpose. It was not the intention of the del- the form of the ballot, the publication of the egates who met at the Convention that formed amendments or of the Constitution, and the notice that Constitution or that of the people who finally to be given of the election. In case the said adopted it for their government, that there ever amendments or parts of the said Constitution shall should be vital changes made in that Constitution be voted upon separately, every person entitled to but that whenever, by the light of the experience vote thereupon may vote for or against any one of twenty years, sufficient changes should appear or more of them. At the election mentioned in necessary to be made in that Constitution this section, the inspectors in every election disa Convention should be called together for trict shall provide a suitable box or boxes, to rethe purpose of making them. We have now ceive the ballots given upon the said amendments met under that authority and for that purpose and which ballots shall have the word ' CONSTITUTION,' no other. We are bound in all our actions here written or printed, or partly written or partly printto see that we do nothing more than to amend ed upon them, so that when they are folded that and repair an old time-honored building, not en- word will appear upon the outside of the ballot deavor to build a new one of entirely new ma- * * * And when it shall be ascertained by the terials according to the fashion of the times — board of State canvassers, under the foregoing of unseasoned materials, not half as able provisions, that any proposition submitted as aforeto bear a strain as the old, and a building said has received more votes in its favor than have not half as commodious as that old fortress been cast against the same, then that proposition of the people's rights, not having half its shall be declared to be adopted, either as the Conprecautions and defenses for the protection -of the stitution, a part of the Constitution, or an amendrights of every member of the community. I ment to the present Constitution, as the case may maintain that such was the object for which we be; and said board of State canvassers shall dewere called together and I find the Legislature of termine and declare, by their certificate in writing, this State has strictly followed such interpretation to be filed and recorded in the office of the Secreof that provision in the old Constitution. Sectiun tary of State, the Constitution as adopted, revised 1 of the act by which we are assembled, provides or amended, * * and each of the said amendthat " an election shall be held on the fourth ments which shall not receive a majority of all the Tuesday of April next, of delegates to meet in votes given upon it at the said election, shall be convention to revise the Constitution of this State void and of no effect." and to amend the same." Looking at this statute in connection with and Then section five provides that: as carrying out the provisions of the old Constitu" The said amendments or Constitution shall be tion,I would ask gentlemen before they undertake to submitted by the Convention to the people for pass and submit any amendment,whether as apart their adoption or rejection, at the next general of the duty enjoined upon them of making amendelection, to be held on the Tuesday next after the ments, it was not intended that this Convention first Monday of November next, and every person should provide that each separate proposition as it hereby entitled to vote for delegates may, at that come up, if it were an amendment of a part of the election, vote on such adoption or rejection, in the old Constitution should take the place of such part, election district in which he shall then reside, and or if entirely new, and to form a part of the new not elsewhere. The said amendments or the said Constitution should be separately submitted to the Constitution shall be voted upon as a whole, or in people, and whether that question of separate subsuch separate propositions as the Convention shall mission ought not to come up in and be submitted deem practicable, and as the Convention shall by with each separate proposition as it may be passed resolution declare." upon by the Convention, and not postponed to a Here, m the 6th section, is the first suggestion late hour of the session to determine what should made or hint given that a "Constitution" is to be and what should not be so separately submitted. framed and submitted to the people. In the Because, as been well said, the propositions which views I am presenting, I do not desire to deny in we are to submit may be of great magnitude. The any respect the power of this body to change the changes may be of a violent kind and repulsive to whole fabric of our present Constitution by way the people of this State, it becomes therefore very of amendment, or to amend each section of important to determine whether those violent the Constitution and submit the fabric so changed changes, repulsive and revolting, be welded to to the vote of the people of the State But I other provisions, and then left to the mercy of a contend that the whole purport of the act of the majority, who, at the end of this discussion, may Legislature, following up the spirit and letter of determine that all the propositions which are subthe old Constitution was to provide for mitted in the Convention shall be submitted in amendments to that Constitution, and that they mass, the good and the evil, the pleasing and rather looked to this Convention when it met to revolting, the safe and the dangerous, thus preprepare and submit such propositions by way venting each proposition from being left to stand of amendment as, in the language of the 5th section, or fall by its own merits, and thereafter submit"the Convention should deem practicable" and ting them in the same way to the people-who necessary. Such section proceeds to provide spe- are thus precluded from passing upon their sepacially, and it takes particular care therein, after rate merits. The question of a separate submisproviding for separate amendments and changes sion should be passed upon while the subject is to be made in the old Constitution for their sub- before us and under discussion, or. else we shall 407 be wanting in our duty to our constituents. We shall entirely deviate from the primary authority under which we are collected together9 and usurp powers which the Legislature has not given us. if we undertake to act upon all the parts of the Constitution in mass, and leave to a mere committee privately to select at their discretion the parts which should be separately submitted, so that when their report is brought into this Convention, the mass may be carried as a whole, when every part could not be. I trust we shall not prove so recreant to our duties and our oaths. Mr. DUGANNE - It would seem to me, that in the opinion of many gentlemen in the Convention. the Constitution which we are about to frame is a mere paper kite, and that the business we have come upon to manufacture wind enough to support that kite-its skeleton covered with printed speeches-while we shall attach a series of bobs to it in the shape of what are called separate submissions. Mr. President, I have not come up here to engage in any kite flying or to amuse myself with any paper bobs. I have come here to take part with my fellows, instructed by my constituents-the people of the State of New York, to form a symmetric instrument —a Constitution which. in some amended form, is to take the place of the Constitution which was adopted in 1846. Mr. MERRITT-Will the gentleman [Mr. Duganne], give way for a moment. In the discussions which take place, I hope gentlemen will confine their remarks to the question pending. I hope it is the purpose of those who are in favor of raising this committee, to reach a conclusion on that subject at this session; and if a point of order should be raised when a speaker is wandering from the question, I hope it will not be taken as a personal affront. Mr. DUGANNE —I gave way to the gentleman [Mr. Merrritt] supposing that a question was to be asked; instead of which, he has favored me with a lecture upon the way in which I should address the Convention. I have merely to say that I alluded to this, because I believe that in constructing this instrument-in doing the work we are sent here to do, we should do it methodically, and in such a manner that, at the conclusion of our labors, the whole work will be before us; and, when that is done, we should take upon us the duty of so arranging and so deciding upon the different provisions and amendments as to present them in a methodical and symmetrical form to the people. Therefore, I am in favor of postponing the consideration of any separate amendment, or its mode of submission to the people, until we have the whole Constitution before us, and can look upon it intelligently and ascertain whether the house which we are sent here to build is symmetrical in all its proportions, hasits pillars, its bases, its foundation and its superstructure all in proper regard to what is required. When we have decided upon that, it is time for us afterward to conclude whether our instructions go so far as to permit us to submit also other portions —extraneous matters which do not belong to the perfect fabric which we are sent here to construct. Mr. GRAVES-In the present condition of the business of this Convention, I cannot see the importance of the passage of this resolution; I therefore move to lay the whole subject on the table. The question was put on the motion of Mr. Graves and it was declared lost on a division by a vote of 51 to 59. Mr. WEED —I am forced, Mr. President, to rise to a question of order, by reason of the position taken by the gentleman from Onondaga [Mr. Alvord], who proposed this amendment. As I understand the gentleman, he claims that his amendment will cut off the right to offer amendments which have been offered in Committee of the Whole in Convention. If so, it violates rule 39 of this Convention, and for that reason, as the amendment accepted by the gentleman from St. Lawrence [Mr. Merritt], proposes to suspend or modify a rule of the Convention it cannot be considered without one day's notice. The PRESIDENT-The Chair rules that the point of order is not well taken. Mr. WEED-I would ask the Chair if it so rules because in its opinion the amendment does not modify or change the rule? The PRESIDENT -The Chair is not aware that it changes the rule. If it should have that effect, it holds it to be the province of the Convention to adopt such regulations as it chooses. When a case arises the Chair will decide it. Does the gentleman [Mr. Weed] appeal from the decision of the Chair? Mr. WEED-No, the statement of the Chair is satisfactory. The PRESIDENT-The Chair understands that that is the only way by which a rule can be contravened. If a course of action shall be adopted by the Convention, which shall in any way contravene a rule, the Chair, when the case arises, will decide whether the rule has been regularly contravened or not. Mr. McDONALD-If anything has been demonstrated here, it is this, that postponing the consideration of how we shall submit this Constitution until a later period in the proceedings of the Convention, time will be saved. The simple statement made by the gentleman from Westchester [Mr. Greeley] shows this must be so, because we shall consider more questions than we shall approve. But gentlemen say that there are only one or two questions to be thus considered. We have already a half dozen propositions for separate submission. We have one in regard to the educational qualification; we have one in regard to female sufrage; we have one in regard to negro suffrage; and the gentleman from New York, [Mr. Tilden] proposes one in regard to the judiciary; others may want one in regard to the Legislature, and so on through the whole list. But supposing there is no saving of time whatever, ought this proposition, for a postponement to prevail? In answer to a question I put to the gentleman from Kings [Mr. Murphy] he answered that he regarded the question of what we were to submit as more important than the question as to how we were to submit it. Then when I asked him why we should not postpone the consideration of the least important subject until we should have first determined the most important, he replied that my question was "impertinent," and declined to 408 answer it. If my question was impertinent, I Mr. Mf. I. TOWNSEND-At the opening of the was impertinent for asking it. If it was pertinent, debate upon this question this morning, I was of then as a member of the Convention I simply sub- tile opiniop that time was lost by the introduction mit that the gentleman from Kings should have of the question. I supposed that the gentlemen answered it. Now, was it pertinent? If it is admit- who are in favor of separate submission had disted that one subject is more important than the cussed the question so fully, tliat probably it other, is it not the direct result of that admission? would be much shorter to allow the debate to be It we have less time to consider the one than the finished upon that subject, than it would be to other, we should consider the least important discuss the question of the mode in which this question last? Should we place the less important discussion should be conducted. But we have subject where we have the less time or the greater used up the regular session of tile day and I time? It seems to me tllhat the admission of the have become satisfied that business will be faciligentleman [Mr. Murphy] that one was more im- tated by adopting the resolution that shall defer portant than the other, earned witl it the idea the discussion of the question of the mode of that tlhe less important subject should be consid- submission until a later day in the session. ered when there was less time to consider it, and For this reason, I ehall vote in favor of this propofor this reason, in addition to tie other, tlat time sition. I think, however, that proposition, even will thus be saved. I submit tllen that this order by rejecting botlh of these amendments is of business ought to be adopted so that the less not sufficient to accomplish tlhe purpose proposed: important subject, should be placed at the time tlat tlhe proposition should be still further when (if there be any such time) we shall have the amended; and that, instead of the amendment of least time t4consider it. tile gentleman from Onondaga [Mr. Alvord] being Mr. B,wRKILL-It is so near the usual hour confined to mere "resolutions," it should be propof adjournment tlat I shall not add anything more ositions. So tlat I do not express myself fully in than a single suggestion to what has already favor of the resolution, even rejecting tills amendbeen said il reference to postponing the subject ment. I feel that no injustice will be done by under consideration. I merely wish to suggest a taking that course, for in bodies such as this, as in practical difficulty which will arise from a post- the courts, some reference must be had to proponement of the question of a separate submis- cedents. Those gentlemen who are in favor of a sion until after the entire Constitution sliall lhave separate submission, as tfr as I know, claim to be been perfected by tie action of this Convention. the representatives of the party who, ill 1846, If the amendments to the Constitution had lmad a majority in the Constitutional Co.vention been proposed in form. as amendments to of that day. And it that case the majority of the the existiug instrument, it would be very easy. Constitutional Convention perfected a section such after the action of this Convention lnd beenl as they believed ought to be adopted, and then completed, to provide a method for submitting any passed fromn it to other work of tlie Convention, separate amendment to the people so that they and it was not, until tile report of the committee might take a separate vote upon every independ- as to the mode of submission of tile article was eut proposition. The amendments which have made, that a further proposition was formed and already been made to the first section of this re- prepared for a separate submission. We may port of the Committee on tile Right of Suffrage, adopt that course in this Convention very well, if must have convinced the Convention that the only the najority of tlle' Convention shall be in favor mode of providinlg for the separate submission of of it, but in tlie discharge of the duty wlich the any proposition, connected witl or embraced in people have devolved upon us, I esteem it our that report, must be by adding a proviso to a duty to first see what we believe ougllt to be the section or by altering the language of tile section. constitutional provision, and in do'ng thatIt seems to me, therefore, that tle only manner in Mr. GRAVES-I would ask the gentleman which the question of a separate submission can from Rensselaer [Mr. M. r. Townsend]. to offer be secured, will be either to restrict the Conven- the resolution he speaks of; to see if we cannot tion to the adoption of separate amendments to dispose of this question. the existing Constitution, so that they can be sub- Mr. M. I. TOWNSEND -My fiend from Hermitted separately, or by allowing tlie alteration of kimer [Mr. Graves], will find that he is foreclosed, the language of the section previousl- passed, so because there are two amendments now pendilg. as to bring up tle precise question uill it may The PRESIDENT pro tern - A further amendbe desired shall be separately presented. It ment is not now in order, there being two amendseems to me, therefore, that a practical difficulty ments pending. will arise from the postponement of this subject MIr. M. I. TOWNSEND-I feel that is tile true until after the enitire Constitution slhall have been way to proceed, and wlile I should have been completed, and tlat the way to secure the separate willing, had it not been for tile time we submission of any particular subject will be to have been already occupied in the discusframe the language of each section so as to separate sion of the mode of procedure, to have the proposition to be submitted from the residue assented to tile discussion of this question of tlle secti rn, and thus to avoid confusion and wlen thle article itself was underconsideration. I mutilation. If tlis be so, tlen it must be evident feel it is due to the Convention and due to the that the question of separate submission of each people of tlle State, to halve a vote on some propproposition desired to be submitted must be settled ositiont that at this stage of the proceedings shall as we proceed, anid cannot be deferred until after put an end to this debate. I have one thing furthe form of the entire instrument shall have been thler to say and but one, and that is in reply to a completed. remark made by my respectedfriend from New 409 York [Mr. Daly]. I understood him to say that the party in power in 1846 werp thrust from power in consequence of adopting the Constitution of 846. I may be allowed to dissent entirely from that remark. The party that adopted the Constitution of 1846 was the democratic party. Mr. MERRITT - With great respect I call the gentleman [Mr. M. I. Townsend] to order. The matter of debate is not pertinent to the question before the committee. Tile PRESIDENT pro tern-The gentleman from Rensselaer [Hr. M. I. Townsend], will proceed in order; though the Chair is not aware that the gentleman has yet deviated from the rule. Mr. M. I. TOWNSEND- My remarks were in answer to the gentleman from New York [Mr. Daly], and I have but a word to say. I hope my friend [Mr. Merritt], will be patient with me, as both he and I believe in equal rights, and he has occupied a good deal of tile time of the Convention. The party which adopted tlhe Constitution of 1846, called itself the democratic party; and it lost its power, because in 1848 it proposed to surrender the whole of the territories of this Union to slavery. Sir, the feeling upon that subject was so strong, if my memory does notMr. VAN COTT-I call the gentleman[Mr. M. I. Townsend] to order. It is not relevant to the subject under discussion before tile Convention. whether the democratic party in 1848 proposed to surrender the territories of the United States to slavery or not. The PRIASIDENT pro tem.-The Chair is of the opinion tlat the gentleman from Renuselaer [Mir. M. I. Townsend] is taking a rather wide range in his remarks. Mr. Mh. I. TOWNSIEND-I hope the Convention will al'ow me to conclude the sentence I was uttering, after which I will not say another word. If my memory serves me, the feeling on the subject of slavery in 1848 was so strong as to cause thie gentleman from Rockland [Mr. Conger] to break over tie isothermal line of the democratic party and vote for Martin Van Buren [Laughter]. Mr. TAPPEN moved that the Convention take a recess until four o'clock. Which was lost. Mr. CONGER-I would like to say very brieflyMr. VAN COTT-I call the gentleman, [Mr. Conger] to order. He has already spoken twice on this question. The PRESIDIENT pro tern-The point of order is not well taken unless some other gentleman desires to speak. Mr. CONGER-I wish to state now to the Convention what is to be the practical result of the operation of this resolution if it is adopted. I will present the point briefly and clearly, and I ask a patient audience if I have trespassed too much on tie timi of the Convention. When, in the Committee of the Whole on tile question ol suffrage, every proposition to submit any question to tho people is taken out of the committee and referred to the special commnittee, then thle final result of tle Committee of the Whole will be this: that all male persons aged twenty-one years will have tie right to vote. When that report comes to the Convention the question will be taken upon 52 that proposition, and if any gentleman wishes to have it amended so as to insert a provision that any woman of this State may vote, if he has voted he will be voted down on that proposition; and the question will come up to him whether lie will say that the Constitution shall pass in that form that all male citizens aged twenty-one shall vote. If a nian is conscientious about his Fosition, and lie votes to protect his real position as to the right of the women, lie will have to vote "no" on that proposition. and be so recorded on the Journal, and so in regard to a gentleman who wishes to submit tile question of negro suffrage to the people. He will be precluded from his vote and lie must vote squarely on the proposition that every nmale of the age of twenty-one years shall vote, and in order to justify his position or to protect himself in his notions of what is right, he has got to vote " no on that proposition, and be so recorded on tlhe Journal. I submit to tile Convention, that this is a sort of parliamentary dodge which is not worthy of this body. I do not tlink it is right to say that any gentleman who wishes to present, conscientiously, any proposition, and if he is voted down on that proposition he must so far abandon his whole position as to take the proposition submitted by the majority and vote " aye " or "no upon it and be so recorded. The question was then put on the amendment offered by Mr. Conger, and it was declared to be lost. The question then recurred on the amendment offered by Mr. Murphy. Mr. E. BROOKS called for the ayes and noes. A sufficient number seconding the call, the ayes and noes were ordered. Tile question was then put on the amendment offered by Mr. Murphy, and it was declared lost by the following vote: Ayes-Messrs. Barto, E. Brooks, E. A. Brown, Burrill, Carpenter, Cassidy, Champlain, Chesebro, Comstock, Conger, Corning, Daly, Develin, Hardenburgh,Hatch, Kernan, Livingston. Lowrey, Magbe, IMasten, Mattice, Merwin, Morris, Murphy, Nelson, Paige, A. J. Parker, Potter, Robertson, Rolfe, Roy, Schell, Schoonmaker, Schumaker, Seymour, rappen, Tilden, S. Townsend, Tucker, Weed, Wicklam-40. Noes-Messrs. A. L. Allen, C. L. Allen, N. M. Allen, Alvord, Andrews, Axtell, Ballard, Beckwith, Bell, Bickford, W. C. Brown, Case, Corbett, Curtis, DuLanne, T. W. Dwight, Ely, Endress, lEvarts, Field, Folger, Fowler, Francis, Goodrich, Gould, Grant, Graves, Greeley, Hale, Hammond, FIand, Harris, Hitchcock, Houston, Huntington, Hutchins, Kinney, Krum, Lapham, A. Lawrence, M. HI. Lawrence, Ludington, McDonald, Merritt, M.iller, C. E. Parker, Pond, President, Prindle, Prosser, Ratltbun. Rumsey, Server, Silvester, Sheldon, Spencer, Stratton, M. I. Townsend, Van Campen, Van Cott, Wales, Williams-62. Mr. MURPHY offered the tollowing amendment to be added to the resolution: "But nothing herein contained shall limit the power of the Convention In the Committee of the Whole, to consider the propriety of submitting tle provision of the Constitution now under con. sideration, separately to the people, without reference to such committee." 410 Mr. MERRITT-I would like to ask if this is not substantially the amendment of the gentleman from Rockland [Mr. Conger] upon which we have just taken a vote? Mr. ALVORD offered the following amendment to the amendment: "But nothing herein contained shall prohibit the consideration of any amendment already passed upon in Committee of the Whole, by the Convention upon the incoming of the report of said committee, but such amendment shall not in the Convention beMr. MURPHY-I accept that. Mr. I4APHAM-I hope this amendment will not pass. No one will fail to see, that it excepts out of the operation of this resolution, the question and the only question which will give rise to protracted debate upon the question of suffragewe waste the resolution if we put this amendment to it. Do let us preserve the object of the mover of this resolution to postpone, as legitimately should be done. until after we have considered the various propositions upon their merits, the collateral question as to the mode in which they shall be submitted to the people. Mr. E. BROOKS- I wish to make a single remark. If this resolution prevails, I think its effect will be to disallow members in this Convention to vote upon propositions to submit questions to the people, as it places it in the power of the Convention, when the report shall be made from this committee upon the question of submission, to prevent all debate in the Convention, as by this resolution they prevent debate in Committee of the Whole. Let me illustrate. Gentlemen present their report upon this subject of revision to the Convention and it is in the power of the the majority of this body to move the previous question and cut off all debate upon the subject. SEVERAL MEMBERS —We have no previous question. Mr. E. BROOKS-Gentlemen say we have no previous question; but, sir, we have intimations from two different quarters, one yesterday and one to-day, that there is to be a previous question. That will be the precise effect of the resolution if we adopt it. Mr. LAPHAM —I move that the Convention now take a recess until seven and a half o'clock. The question was put on the motion of Mr. Lapham, and it was declared lost. Mr. GRAVES- Is it in order now to offer an amendment. The PRESIDENT pro ter.- The Chair is of the opinion it is. Mr. GRAVES offered the following resolution: Resolved, That all questions as to the separate submission of any part of the Constitution framed by this Convention be deferred until the whole Constitution is framed by this Convention. Mr. WEED-May I ask whether this is a substitute for the original resolution, or an amendment. Mr. GRAVES-I offered it as a substitute for the original. Mr. MERRITT-I rise to a point of order. That this is a new proposition, and not germane and cannot be offered as an amendment to this resolution. The PRESIDENT pro tem.-The Chair is of the opinion it is proper to offer it as an amendment. Mr. TAPPEN-I renew the motion, that this Convention take a recess until half-past seven. The question was put on the motion of Mr. Tappen and it was declared to be lost. Mr. BELL-I would like to know whether the gentleman from Herkimer [Mr. Graves] proposes that amendment should be added to the other resolution, or whether it is a substitute. The PRESIDENT pro tem.-The Chair understands it is proposed as an amendment, but if it is adopted it takes the place of all that has gone before it. The question was then put on the amendment offered by Mr. Graves, and it was declared adopted-yeas 43, nays 27. Mr. WEED-I call for another vote on the amendment of the gentleman from Herkimer [Mr. Graves], as it is evident there is no quorum voting. The question was again put on the amendment of Mr. Graves, and it was declared adopted, on a division, by a vote of 55 to 31. The question then recurred on the original resolution as amended, and the Secretary proceeded to call the roll. Mr. MURPHY-I understand the amendment which has just been adopted, is a substitute for the original resolution? The PRESIDENT pro tem. - The gentleman from Herkimer [Mr. Graves] offered the resolution as an amendment, the Chair decided it was in order as an amendment, but having been adopted it takes the place of all that has previously been considered. Mr. MERRITT-I would like to ask, whether this leaves everything just as it was before we commenced this morning? The PRESIDENTpro tem.-The Chair is of opinion it is not now in order to ask questions, the call being commenced. The SECRETARY proceeded with the call, and the resolution as amended was declared adopted by the following vote. Ayes-Messrs. A. F. Allen, C. L. Allen, Alvord, Andrews, Ballard, Beckwith, Bell, Bickford, W. C. Brown, Case,Corbett, Curtis, Duganne, T. W. Dwight, Ely, Endress, Evarts, Field, Fowler, Francis, Fuller, Goodrich, Gould, Grant, Graves, Hammond, Hand, Harris, Hatch, Hitchcock, Houston, Huntington Hutchins, Krum, Lapham, A. Lawrence, M. H. Lawrence, Ludington, McDonald, Merritt, Merwin, Miller, C. E. Parker, Pond, Prosser, Rathbun, Rumsey, Seaver, Silvester, Sherman, Spencer, Stratton, M. I. Townsend, Van Campen, Van Cott, Wakeman, Wales, Williams-58. Noes-Messrs. N. M. Allen, Barnard, Barto, E. Brooks, Burrill, Carpenter, Cassidy, Champlain, Chesebro, Comstock, Conger, Corning, Daly, Deve. lin, Folger, Hardenburgh, Kernan, Kinney, Livingston, Lowrey, Magee, Masten, Morris, Murphy, Nelson, Paige, A. J. Parker, Potter, Robertson, Rolfe, Roy, Schell, Schoonmaker, Schumaker, Seymour, Strong, Tappen, Tilden, S. Townsend, Weed, Wickham-41. Mr. CONGER-I rise to a point of order, that the vote taken, not being a two-thirds vote on the passage of this resolution, therefore the resolution 411 is lost, the rules requiring it should be passed by a two-thirds vote. I refer to Rule 39: "No standing rule of the Convention shall be suspended, amended or rescinded, or additional rule or rules added, unless one day's notice of the motion therefor shall have been given; nor shall any such suspension, addition, amendment or repeal be then made, except by the vote of twothirds of all the members present, or that of a majority of all the members elected to the Convention. But such notice shall not be required on the last day's session. The notice and motion for a suspension shall each state specifically the number of the rule and the object of the proposed suspension, and every suspension on such notice and motion, shall be held to apply only to the particular object or objects specified therein." The PRESIDENT pro tern.-The Chair will inform the gentleman from Rockland [Mr. Conger] that this point of order has already been raised and passed upon in the negative. Mr. DEVELIN —I rise to a point of order, and I refer the President to Rule 40. I understand this resolution which has been passed changes the order of business. Before this resolution passed we had discussed this question, and this prohibits the discussion, and Rule 40 declares that the rules of the Convention shail not be altered unless by a vote of two-thirds. The 'PRESIDENT pro tem.- The Chair does not find in Rule 40 any such provision. Mr. DEVELIN —I have not a copy of the rules before me. I think, then, it is Rule 39. The PRESIDENT pro tern - The Chair would inform the gentleman the point of order on that rule has already been decided. Mr. HUTCHINS offered the following resolution: Resolved, That a committee of fifteen be appointed, whose duty it shall be to examine into and report upon the following subjects: 1. The arrangement of the several articles and sections of the Constitution, as amended and adopted. 2. The manner and form in which the Constitution, as amended and adopted, shall be submitted to the people for their adoption or rejection. 3. The publication of the amendments, or of the Constitution as amended. 4. The form of the notice of election. 5. The form of the ballot. Mr. HUTCHINS-I move that for the present that resolution do lie on the table. The question was put on the motion of Mr. Hutchins, and it was declared carried. Mr. BELL-I move that the Convention now take a recess until half-past seven o'clock. Mr. E. BROOKS-I move to amend by making it half-past four. Mr. ALVORD-Is this a debatable question? The PRESIDENT pro tern.- The Chair is of opinion it is. Mr. ALVORD-I will say, as far as regards the recess, I am in favor of a recess until halfpast seven. Owing to the position which I have occupied, in common with others in this body, for the past three or four days, one of the important Committees of this Convention has not been able to meet owing to these recesses till four o'clock. The PRESIDENT pro tem.-Will the gentleman from Onondaga [Mr. Alvord] yield? The Chair is of the opinion he was in error in saying this question was debatable. The Chair thinks it is not debatable. Mr. ALVORD-I supposed the Chair was in error. On motion of Mr. PROSSER, the Convention adjourned. SATURDAY, July 20, 1867. The Convention met at 11 o'clock A. M., the President pro tern. [Mr. Folger], in the chair. Prayer was offered by Rev. WM. BAILEY. The Journal of yesterday was read by the SECRETARY and approved. The PRESIDENT pro ter. presented a plan by E. D. Smith, for the organization of the Judiciary. Which was referred to the Committee on the Judiciary. The PRESIDENT pro ter. also presented a memorial from J. C. T. Luddington, asking for a submission to the people of a separate clause for the prohibition of the sale of intoxicating liquors. Which was referred to the Committee on Adulterated Liquors. Mr. HUTCHINS presented the petition of Thomas Marsh and others, citizens of New York, praying that the Constitution may be so amended as to secure the right of suffrage upon equal terms for men and women. Which was referred to the Committee of the Whole. The PRESIDENT pro ter. presented a communication from the Auditor of the Canal Department in answer to a resolution of the Convention passed June 26th, relating to the cost, etc., of the Champlain canal. Which was referred to the Committee on Canals and ordered to be printed. Mr. McDONALD gave notice of the following amendment of rules: "This Convention will go each day into Committee of the Whole on any general or special order pending, one hour after it convenes, unless the order of business is reached before that time." Mr. S. TOWNSEND offered the following resolution: Resolved, that the following substitute for section 2, of article 1 of the present Constitution, be referred to the Committee upon the Preamble and the Bill of Rightsas a proper subject for their consideration, viz.: Trial by jury in all cases in which it has been heretofore used, shall remain inviolate, but jury trial may be waived in all civil cases, in the manner prescribed by law. Adequate uniform compensation shall be made to all jurors. Mr. S. TOWNSEND-The dropping of the term "forever," a presumptuous one either in the statute or in the organic law, after the word inviolate in the existing section, was at the suggestion of one of our most eminent statesmen. Theprovision as to uniform adequate compensation for jurors is highly necessary from the fact of the diversity of the present compensation, varying in the several counties from 12+ cents in a case tried, to two dollars or more per diem. We have re 412 cently seen the State courts in the county of New York greatly embarrassed for the want of a sufficient jury panel present. Mr. MOORE offered the following resolution: Resolved, That when this Convention adjourns to-day,' it adjourn to meet on Tuesday next at eleven o'clock A. M. Mr. CHESEBRO-I move to amend that, by inserting, Monday evening at half-past seven o'clock. Mr. ALVORD-I move that the resolution do lie on the table. The question was put on the motion of Mr. Alvord and it was declared carried. Mr. GRAVES offered the following preamble and resolution. It appearing that many menbers of this Convention are in the habit of absenting themselves from daily attendance upon its proceedings, Resolved, That after Monday the 22d day of July instant, the roll be called every day at its organization. Mr. BECKWITH - I hope that resolution will not be adopted. The resolution giving rise to debate, was laid over. Mr. A. J. PARKER offered the following resolution: Resolved, That it be submitted to Committee number 3, on the Powers and Duties of the Legislature, to inquire into the expediency of so amending the Constitution of this State, as to provide that the Legislature of this State, to which an amendment of the Federal Constitution shall be submitted for ratification, shall be one of which the popular branch shall have been elected after tho passage by Congress of the amendment proposed. Which was referred to the Committee on the Powers and Duties of the Legislature. Mr. T. W. DWIGHT offered the following resolution: Resolved, That the adjournment of this Convention at the close of the week shall hereafter be regulated as follows: on Saturday next the Convention shall adjourn at 2 o'clock, P. M., to the succeeding Monday at 11 o'clock, A. M.; on the succeeding Friday the Convention shall adjourn at 2 o'clock, P. M., to the following Monday at 7j o'clock, P. M. and that this order shall be pursued week by week in regular alternation. Mr. ALVORD-I rise to a point of order, that this resolution is an amendment to the rules, and therefore requires one day's notice. The PRESIDENT pro ternm.-The Chair is of the opinion that the point ot order is well taken. Mr. T. W. DWIGHT —Then, sir, I give notice that I shall offer this as an amendment to the rules. Mr. T. W. DWIGHT offered the following resolution: Resolved, That at a regular meeting of the Convention a majority of the members present may move a call of the Convention, with the same powers and effect as in the like case in the house of Assembly. Whilch as adopted. Mr. gEKWITH odfered the following resolu'la.: Resolved, That from and after Tuesday next, immediately after reading the Journal, tile roll shall be called and the names of all absentees be entered as absent on the Journal of the Convention. Mr. SILVESTER -I hope, sir, that resolution will not be adopted. The resolution giving rise to debate was laid over. Mr. SILVESTER offered the following resolution: Resolved, That when this Convention adjourns to-day it will adjourn to meet on Monday evening, July 22, 1867, at 71 P. M. Mr. ALVORD-I rise to a point of order. That we have just passed upon a matter of the same kind, and laid it upon the table by a vote of the Convention. The PRESIDENT pro tem -The Chair is of opinion that the point of order is well taken. Mr. SILV ESTER-Then I propose, sir, to alter the resolution to make the hour at 7 o'clock. The PRESIDENT pro ten. — The Chair is of opinion that with that alteration the resolution is in order. Mr. ALVORD - Then I move to lay the resolution on the table. The question was put on the motion of Mr. Alvord, and it was declared to be lost, no quorum voting. Mr. SILVESTER - I call attention of the Clair to the fact that tlere is-no quorum present. The PRESIDENT pro tem.-Thlere being no quorum, what is the pleasure of the Convention? Mr. ALVORD moved a call of the Convention. Which was lost. Mr. BICKFORD moved that the roll of the Convention be called. Which was carried. The SECRETARY proceeded to call the roll, when the following members answered to their names: Messrs. A. F. Allen, C. L. Allen, N. M. Allen, Alvord, Andrews, Axtell, Beckwith, Bell, Bickford, E. A. Brown, Case, Cassidy, Champlain, Chesebro, Cochran, Comstock, Cooke, Corbett, Corning, Curtis, T. W. Dwight, Ely, Endress, Field, Folger, Fuller, Gould, Graves, Hale, Hammond, Hand, Harris. Hatch, Hitchcock, Houston, Huntington, Hutchins, Kinney, Landon, Lapham, A. Lawrence, M. H. Lawrence, Ludlngton, Magee, McDonald, Merritt, Merwin, Miller, More, Paige, A. J. Parker, C. E. Parker, Prindle, Prosser, Rathbun, Rolfe, Roy, Rumsey, L. W. Russell, Schell, Silvester, Smith, Spencer, M. I. Townsend, S. Townsend, Van Campen, Van Cott, Wakeman, Wales, Williams-70. Mr. ALVORD - I move, sir, for a call of this Convention, and on that question I call for the ayes and noes. A sufficient number seconding the call, the ayes and noes were ordered. The question was then put on the motion of Mr. Alvord, and it was declared carried by the following vote: Ayes-Messrs. N. M. Allen, Alvord, Andrews, Baker, Beckwith, Bell, Bickford, E. A. Brown, Case, Cooke, Curtis, T. W. Dwiglt. Endress, Field, Folger, Fuller, Gould, Hale, Hammond, Hand, Hatch, Hitchcock, Hutchins, Kinney, Landon, Lawrence, Lee, Livingston, Loew, 'owrey, Lapham, A. Lawrence, M. II. Lawrence, Lud- Masten, Mattice, Merrill, Monell, Morris, Murphy, ingtol), Merritt, Miller, C. E. Parker. Rathbun, Nelson, Opdyke, Pond, Potter, President, ReylRumsey, L. W. Russell, Van Co t, Wales-37. nolds, Rohertson, Rogers, Root. A. D. Russell, Noes —Messrs. A. F. Alien, Cassidy, Champ- Schoonmaker, Schumaker, Seaver, Seymour, laiu, Chesehro, Cochran, Comstock, Corbett, Corn- Sheldon, Sherman, Stratton, Strong, Tappen, ing, Ely, Graves, Harris, Houston, Huntingtonon Tilden, Tucker, Veeder, Verplanek, Weed, WickMagee, McIDonald, Merwin, More, Paige, Parker, ham, Young-90. Prindie, Prosser, Rolfe, Roy, Schell, Silvester, Mr. ALVORD-I move a suspension of the call. Smith, Spencer, M. I. Townsend, S. Townsend, and I desire to give my reasons therefor. When I Wakemnaii, Williams-31. was interrupted before by a point of order, which The SECRETIARY proceeded with the call. was declared to be well taken. I was about to say Mr. CHES1IEBRO-I move that tile further call tlat there seems to have been a chronic disease be suspended and that the Convention do now upon this subject of the business of tile Couvenadjourn. tion on the part of certain gentlemen during our 'Tie question was put on tile motion of Mr. entire sittings here, and it has resulted, not iijuriClhesebro, and it was declared lost. ously possibly in the first stages of the Convention, Mr. MORE —I ask leave of absence for my but entirely so subsequently, and has virtually colleague, Mr. Mattice. confined the sittings of this Convention to four The PR ESID.ENT pro tem.- The Chairis of the days in the week, and the fourth of those four opinion that no business car be transacted except days has been absolutely used up by the anxiety that befire the Convention. of parties within the limits of this Convention to Mr. ALVORD -As I understand this matter, get through the business and go away, even on those who have moved for a call of the Conven- tle fourth day, if possible. I recollect, sir, tion llp to this poillt, have done so for tile purpose another thiing. A distinguished gentleman, a of putting upon the record unmistakably tlhe delegate to this Convention, who resides in one of members of this Convention whio are persistently the counties conltiguous to New York, Westchester, absent from their duties, commencing Friday and or some other-I do not recollect which-has perup to tile next succeeding Monlday or Tuesday. sistently, again and again, called the attention of I, for one, believe it is the duty of tlie members of this Convention to its neglect of its duties by their this Convention, luless an absolute and uudispen- constant adjournments I recollect also with regard sable necessity requires otherwise- to that distinguished individual. that at least for the Mr. CHE1SEBRO-r rise to a point of order last two, and I think three, Fridays and SaturThlat tlere is ino question before the Conventiou. days and subsequent Mondays in each week, he The PR1ESIDENT pro Itmn. -The point of order has been absent from his place in this Convention. is well taken. I recollect another thing. But a few days ago Mr. ALVORD-I move to suspend the further there was a division on the call of the ayes and call, and desire to give my reasons therefor. noes upon the question as to whether we should Mr. KINNEY-i rise to a point of order. adjourn or take a recess, and upon that division the That that question has just been decided by a vote. vote stood fifty-five for tlie adjournment and sevenThe P1RESIDENT pro tern. - The point of order ty-one against it; and the result of that vote was, we is well taken. were compelled to take a recess, and held a session Mr. SILVESTER-I desire to ask leave of which lasted very lawe in the evening. I, sir, took absence for Mr. Carpenter, of Dutchess, who is the precaution to have the matter determined in refnecessarily absent. erence to those who were within the body of this Tlhe PRESIDENT pro tem.-The Chair is of Convention after that recess; and I found that the opinion that it is not now in order. sixteen of the seventy-one who voted against the Mir. MI4ERRITT-If I understand the call, it adjournment were absent from this Convention only lacks ten of a quorum. Would it be in order during the entire of that time. If they had voted to direct the Sergeant-at-Arms to proceed to the as they acted the result would have been an addifferent Ilotels and see if it is possible to find a journment, carried by seventy-one votes in favor quorumn in tile city. of it to fifty-five against it. So that those of us, Tlie PRESIDENT pro ter-It does not require the fifty-five who voted for that adjournment, were such a motion. compelled by the action of sixteen men, who Mr. ALVORD moved that the absentees be paid no attention to their own action, so far as called. regards an adjournment, to come here and fritter Tlie SECRETARY proceeded to call the ab- away a large portion of the evening. I hold this sentees, when the fullowing members were found to be the duty of tlhe members of this Convention. to be absent. I do not speak in laudation of myself, but I speak Messrs. Archer, Armstrong. Baker, Ballard, of what I deem my duty as a public servant, in Barker, Barnard. Barto, Beadle, Beals, Bergen. this position-that no man should absent himBowen, E. Brooks, E. P. Brooks. J. Brooks, W. C. self from his duties in this chamber unless Brown, Burrill, Carpenter, Cheritree, Church, he could give a good and sufficient reason, Clark, Clinton. Colahal, Conger, Daly, Develin, and that good and sufficient reason should be Duganne. C C. Dwight, Eddy, Evarts, Farnum, given beforehand, and he should ask permission Ferry, Flagler, Fowler, Francis, Frank, Fullerton, of this Convention thus to absent himself. But Garvin, Gerry, Goodrich. Grant. Greeley, Gross, no possible excuse can be given by gentlemen who Iladley, Hardenburgh, Hiscock, Hitchman, Jarvis, thus inconvenience the members who have come Keruani Ketcham, Krumu Larremore, Law, A. R. here to do the duties which the people called upo 414 them to perform; and there will be no remedy for this unless this course is pursued. We are satisfied of the fact that there is business coming in upon us here each and every day so that hardly any of us can see the end of it, or when we shall get through the work we are called upon to perform. If it is impossible, after all our deliberations, after all our thought and our best intellect shall be given to this subject, that we should conclude our labors in time to be given to the people for their decision, we should certainly take away from those who could blame us in regard to the matter the argument that we were called upon within certain days to do and perform this work, and to point us to the record to show that one-half of that time had been frivolously and uselessly wasted by this Convention. Again, sir, men who upon the pretense of having committee work to do, or having an abundance of work to do, say, therefore, it is no matter if the body of the Convention go away, yet the committee work can be done, ought to know. if they do not know, that the moment the voice goes out that the Convention has adjourned that moment it is an utter impossibility to convene any committee within the body of this Convention. They go away with the adjournment, and your committees have to go over not only until Monday night, if we adjourn until Monday, but until Tuesday afternoon, and sometimes until Wednesday; so that the result is, through this inconvenience many important committees of this Convention do not have over two or at the most three sessions a week. If we pursue this course in the future we shall of necessity either be compelled to bring up in the latter days of this Convention our work illy done and put it together hastily, in order to put it before the people, or else go back to the people not having done our duty. And, sir, I wish, in addition to what I have said in this regard (meaning in good faith this motion to suspend the call) to say, that if it is in the power of the body of this Convention, and if the members of this Convention who remain here in Albany to do and perform their duty will stand by me, I will upon any subsequent occasion like this move a call of the house, and shall persist with their aid to carry it to its full extent and meaning. Mr. M. H. LAWRENCE-I entirely concur with the sentiments expressed by the gentleman from Onondaga [Mr. Alvord]. Many delegates come here from remote parts of the State, and when they sit here from day to day and see gentlemen come here seemingly only for the purpose of making speeches to gain some political advantage, and then seek the first opportunity to run away home, when it is convenient for them to get there, it is certainly unpleasant when we are compelled to stay here, those of us who cannot get home conveniently. I believe if gentlemen looked into the matter they would see that those gentlemen who wish to adjourn the most, are those who live convenient to the Capitol so they can easily rush down to the steamboat or cars and leave for home. It is not so, I am happy to say, with this entire Convention. The people have sent us here to make the organic law of the State, and I believe that those gentleman who have come here simply for the purpose of political advantage will find themselves mistaken in this matter. The people are not indifferent to this Constitutional Convention. I can assure gentlemen they have it at heart. They have sent us here for the purpose of revising and amending the organic law of the State, and they will hold gentlemen accountable for their action here. The people are not desirious of obtaining immense speeches, long winded speeches, which are but a mere rehash with nothing new in them. They cost too much to the people of the State. I wish to say to some gentlemen who perhaps are rich in non-taxpaying bonds, that they had better look to it to see that this Convention shall do something to relieve the people of this State from their onerous taxation. I tell gentlemen if they put any more increased burdens upon the people of this State by taxation, that they had better look out for their non-tax paying securities. I think for myself, though I may be unsophisticated in this matter-but I think the people really believe that the Constitution needs amendment and altering; I believe we can do it, so as to be a blessing to the people of the State. When I first came here to this Convention I felt gratified and pleased to see the harmony that seemed to prevail, gentlemen were so cordial, and seemed to be so happy in each other's society; there was to be no politics in this hall; it was to be all done harmoniously. I said to my friends, when I went home (for I went home at one of the adjournments), "we are going to work harmoniously; we all agree; we are acting with a sincere desire to improve the Constitution of the State." But in writing home since, I had to tell them 1 was afraid a different state of things was rising up in this Convention, and I have thought in the past week, when I have seen men rise up here and discuss this question, seemingly for the purpose o' trying to gain some political advantage, that soime only came here for that purpose. I represent, sir, men of radical political views; they have sent nme here not for a political purpose, but for the purpose of trying to improve the Constitution of this State. I have been glad to see the action which has been taken to-day, and I trust it will have a salutary effect upon members of this Convention. Mr. GOULD -I entirely concur in what has fallen from the gentleman from Onondaga [Mr. Alvord], but I wish to inquire whether the absentees are not now in contempt. The PRESIDENT pro tem.-The Chair will decide that question when it comes up. Mr. GOULD - Then I shall presume they are in contemptMr. LAPHAM —Will the gentleman from Columbia allow me to call his attention to Rule 33, which is as follows: Rule 33. In cases of the absence of a quorum at any session of the Convention, the members present may take such measures as they may deem necessary to secure the presence of a quorum, and may inflict such censure as they may deem just on those who on being called on for that purpose shall render no sufficient excuse for their absence. Mr. GOULD-That is a very good and sound rule and one that comes to the very point. I happen to know that Mr. Mattice, of Greene county, is 415 necessarily absent on account of the sickness of his wife. It seems to me, under that rule, it is perfectly competent for the minority who are now present to excuse him, and thus purge him of any contempt. I think that is due to him under the circumstances, and from motives of common humanity; and therefore I move that Mr. Mattice be excused, with the permission of the Chair. The PRESIDENT pro tern.-The Chair has no power to put the motion; and there being no quorum present, no business can be done. Mr. GOULD - Does not the rule expressly provide that a minority may pass censure? The PRESIDENT pro ter.-That is only when the party is called up before the Convention, and then they can only be purged of contempt by giving a satisfactory excuse. Mr. GOULD - The rule does not say so. The PRESIDENT pro tern.- That has always been the practice under the rules. The absentees are brought in by the Sergeant-at-Arms, and as they come before the Convention they give their excuses, and it is for the Convention to excuse them or not. Mr. BICKFORD -I would wish for one that the gentleman from Onondaga [Mr. Alvord] would not abandon his call. I, for one, would like to see the doors shut, and some at least of the absentees brought in, that the Convention may show that they are in earnest in this matter. I, for one, have attended promptly at all times; I believe on every occasion on which the roll has been called, my name has been answered to. I am not disposed to treat the absence of gentlemen, whose business it is to attend here, as a trifling matter. I wish therefore that the call should be persisted in, that the doors should be closed, and the Sergeant-at-Arms sent to bring in members, that we may show we are determined now to proceed to enforce the authority of this Convention. We must begin some time. The Convention, when it was full, yesterday, ordered that a session be held at eleven o'clock, and we are here and met in pursuance of that order, and those who are absent should be made to face the music, and brought in, and if they have any good excuse we will then hear it; if not, we will censure them as we think they deserve. Mr. ALVORD-I would ask of the Chair or Secretary, whether there are any of the gentlemen whose names have been called as absentees,* that have been excused by any action of the Convention. Mr. Brooks has for one, certainly. That should appear on the record. The PRESIDENT pro ter. - The secretary informs the chair that Mr. J. Brooks and Mr. Pierrepont have been excused. Mr. WAKEMAN —I would like to inquire, if we adopt the resolution offered by the gentleman from Onondaga [Mr. Alvord] for a suspension of the call, whether those who are absent will be in contempt then? The PRESIDENT pro tern. - The Chair is of opinion they will not. Mr. WAKEMAN — Then I am in favor of the last motion of the gentleman from Onondaga [Mr. Alvord], but in future I am willing to go with him or any other gentleman in favor of compelling members to stay here and discharge their duties. I think, however, our action heretofore has been such as rather to give license to members to go away; but if we take this action and give this public notice that hereafter the rule will be enforced it will have a salutary effect. I therefore shall vote for the suspension of the call. Mr. CHESEBRO -After the remarks which have been made by the gentleman from Onondaga [Mr. Alvord], I think it is time the order of business now before this Convention be suspended. It is well known that it has been the habit of members of the Convention on Friday evenings to leave on the theory that no business would be done on Saturdays, and there has not been on the part of the Convention any action which has been a notification to any of them that such a course would be pursued. Mr. ALVORD - Will the gentleman permit me to ask him a question? Mr. CHESEBRO -Certainly.,Mr. ALVORD -I ask him if this Convention did not through me take similar action within the last two weeks? Mr. CHESEBRO - They may have done so, but not while I was present. Mr. ALVORD -The gentleman was one of the absentees. Mr. CHESEBRO-Quite probably I was in the same category with those who are now absent. I know quite a number of gentlemen have left this Convention, and some of them are now holding court in the cities of New York and Buffalo. They went away upon the theory that they would not be called to account, but as they will now receive from this action of the Convention an admonition with regard to the future; and believing that will be sufficient I move this Convention do now adjourn. The question was put on the motion to adjourn, and it was declared lost. Mr. T. W. DWIGHT —I hope the call will be suspended. The resolution which I introduced this morning, I think, will meet the difficulties in this case - that every alternative week we should adjourn from Friday till Monday, and on the intermediate weeks from Saturday till Monday, and gentlemen can then arrange their business accordingly. If that resolution shall be adopted I think it would be proper to hold gentlemen to a strict attendance, but I think we have accomplished now all that it is proper to accomplish at this stage. Mr. COMSTOCK- I move that the Convention do now adjourn until Monday evening at seven and a half o'clock. The PRESIDENT pro tem. —There is no quorum present, and it is not in order. The question was then put upon the motion of Mr. Alvord to suspend the call, and it was declared to be carried. Mr. N. M. ALLEN-I move that the Convention do now adjourn. Mr. COMSTOCK -I ask to be excused on Monday - The PRESIDENT pro ter.- The Chair has no power to excuse the gentleman; and there being no quorum present, it is not now in order. Mr. M. I. TOWNSEND - I desire to ask a question of the power of the Convention, because I am uninstructed 416 Mr. ALVORD? I call the gentleman to order. The question was then put upon the motion of Mr. Allen to adjourn, and it was declared carried. So the Convention stood adjourned. MONDAY, JULY 22, 1867. The Convention met at 11 o'clock A. M. Tile Journal of Saturday was read by the SECRT ARY. Mr. S. TOWNSEND-As I understood the reading of the Journal, it is not stated that the resolution which I had the honor of offering on Saturday was referred on my motion to the Committee on the Bill of Rights. The Jourual was ordered to be corrected in that respect; and there being no further objection thereto, it was declared approved. Mr. 0. L. ALLEN presented a petition from citizens of the county of Columbia. praying for a clause in the Constitution to prohibit donations to sectarian institutions. Which was referred to the Committee on the Powers and Duties of the Legislature. Mr. CASE presented a petition of Rev. W. P. Canfield and ninety-six others, citizens of the town of Cazenovia, on the same subject. Which took the same reference. Mr. LAPtIHAM offered the following resolution: Resolved. That it be referred to the Committee on Banking and Insurance to inquire and report as to the necessity and propriety of requiring tile Legislature to provide by law the form of a policy of insurance, and rendering all provisions ill such contracts void except those prescribed in such form. Which was referred to the Committee on Bank. ing and Insurance, etc. Mr. WALES offered the following resolution: Resolved, That the following amendment be made to the fifth section of the article reported by the Committee on the Organization, etc., of the Legislature, viz.: "The salary of one thousand dollars shall be for a full attendance upon all the sessions of the Legislature for the year, or upon actual duty with some of its committees; and the amount paid to each member shall bear the same proportion to one thousand dollars as his actual daily attendance shall bear to the whole number of days the Legislature shall have been in session; and the Legislature. at its first session after the adoption of this Constitution, shall prescribe the manner oi ascertaining the actual attendance of the members respectively upon each session, and the time and manner of payment of their respective salaries. Which was referred to the Committee of the Whole. Mr. A. J. PARKER offered the following resolution: Resolved, That it be referred to Committee No. 3, on the Powers and Duties of the Legislature. to inquire into the expediency of prohibiting the authorizing by the Legislature of any consolidation of Railroad corporation, where the aggregate capital of the companies consolidated shall exceed fifteen million of dollars, and prohibiting a consolidation in any case without the written consent of three-fourths of all the stockholders. Which was referred to the Committee on the Powers and Duties of the Legislature. Mr. GR BEELEY offered the following resolution: Resolved, That the Convention will proceed on Wednesday, at 1 P. M., to act upon the article reported by the Committee on the Rights o' Suffrage as it sliall have been reported from the Cominittee of the Whtole Every amendment that shall have been or which may be proposed, shall be separately presented, and five minutes allowed the mover to explain and commend it, with a like opportunity for one reply, wlhen the vote shall be taken thereon. All amendments having thus been disposed of, the vote shall be taken by yeas and nays on the article itself. Mr. PAIGE loved to substitute "Thursday" instead of " Wednesday." Mr. GREELEY-I changed the time expressly to suit the convenience of the gentleman from Schenectady, [Mr. PaigeJ as he said he would not be ready by Tuesday. I leave it to the Convention to decide the time. Mr. CHAMPLAIN-I think that this resolution ought to be laid over. Tile resolution giving rise to debate, it was laid on the table. Mr. E. A. BROWN offered the following resolution: Resolved, That the Committee on Cities, etc., be respectfully requested to inquire and report as to the propriety of a constitutional provision prohibiting the enlargement of the boundaries of' cities by amendments of their charters under acts of the Legislature or otherwise, without tlhe previous assent of a majority in niumber of the tax pCyers representing more than oiie-half of the assessed value of tile property iu the district proposed to be annexed to such city, and also prohibiting taxation of such annexed district for the pre-existing indebtedness of such city. Which was referred to the Committee on Cities, etc. Mr. LUDINGTON offered the following preamble and resolution: WIIEREAS, The present Capitol of the State, with the improvements recently made in the Assembly Chamber therein, will, for many years to come, meet all just and reasonable requirements of the people of the State, and VWHEREAS, Heavy pecuniary burdens, both of zeneral and local character, chiefly consequent upon the great civil war through wlich we as a nation have just passed, and bearing heavily upon the resources of tile people; and WHEREAS, Recent legislation has been had, and further legislation is in contemplation, having in view the expenditure of many millions of dollars for the purpose of building a new State Capitol; therefore Resolved, That the Committee on Finance be requested to inquire into the expediency of so amending the Constitution as to prohibit any furthler appropriation of money for the purpose indicated in the foregoing preamble, for the period of ive years, or such other period of time as will better enable the people to make such expenditure. Mr. A. J. PARKER-I shall have occasion to liscuss that resolution; therefore I propose that it lie over. 417 The resolution giving rise to debate, it was laid on the table. The Convention then resolved itself into a Committee of the Whole on the Right of Suffrage and the Qualifications to Hold Office; Mr. ALVORD, of Onondag:, in the Chair. The CHAIRMAN announced the pending question to be uponMr. CASSIDY-If I am in order, I propose to offer an amendment. The CHAIRMAN-It is not in order, there being an amendment now pending before the Committee. Mr. CASSIDY -I propose to offer an amendment on behalf of my colleague [Mr. Conger]. I shall, therefore, reserve it until another time. Mr. CASSIDY -Mr. Chairman, as one of the Committee on Suffrage, opposed to the article under consideration, I desire to be heard in vindication of the minority report. And first, let me correct an error copied from the Convention Manual into that report. It was in 1860 that the last submission of negro suffrage to the popular vote was made, resulting in 337,984 votes against to 197,503 in favor thereof. It was in 1857 that the amendment to that effect was forgotten in the pigeon holes of the Executive office. In discussing this subject, I shall not attempt to keep track of the discursive arguments with which gentlemen have illustrated their views, nor seek its solution in the results of comparative anatomy or in the problems of metaphysical politics. There is to me a mocking irony in the citation of the Declaration that "all men are born equal," and that "government derives its just powers from the consent of the governed," if I suppose that the representatives of thirteen slaveholding and slavetrading colonies applied it to the Negro and the Indian. There is a grim sarcasm in the citation of the spectacle in the cabin of the Mayflower, of a body of men framing a form of government for a land they had never seen, and proclaiming their dominion over the people in possession of it, and whom they were destined to exterminate. Yet these and the scenes upon our western border, where the rifle of the white settler clears the path of civilization through the hunting-grounds of the red man, have been c(ited to prove not the equality of men in their respective communities, but the equality of races I 1 leave such illustrations to refute the arguments in behalf of which they are advanced. Nor shall I attemptto analyze the delusion under which gentlemen have sacrificed to a favorite theory not only logic and history and philosophy, but the sympathies of kindred and of race. We have heard eloquent gentlemen here in their eulogies of the negro "smoothing the raven down of darkness till it smiled"; yet when the pleading voice of women was addressed them closing their earsturn from the suppliants "and that fair mountain leave to batten on this Moor." " I will not ask Jean Jacques Rousseau," nor any other political philosopher under what clause of the social compact we derive our power to act here. It is enough for me that for the fourth time in the history of the State a Convention is called to revise the organic law. We, its members, are delegated by the existing constituency 53 to revise an existing Constitution, and to submit our conclusions to the power that made us, for its approval or rejection. That is the grant and the limit of our authority. As I understood the repeated votes of last week, it is the purpose of the majority not to submit this clause of the Constitution to a separate vote. The plebiscitum of 1846, granted again in 1860, is to be withheld. Instead of trusting the people with the decision of the subject, by itself, it is to be carried by a " log-rolling" process-a device familiar to these halls; but which we were sent here to purge our legislation of, and not to countenance and perpetuate by our example. In parliamentary law, when a proposition is divisible it must be put separately; and shall we adopt another rule in the great popular deliberation to which our work is to be subjected? It is a denial of justice to the people I In the article reported by the majority of the committee we have salutary provisions for clecking bribery at the polls, and for securing uniformity in the laws concerning registration. Are we to forfeit these unless we accept unqualified colored suffrage? We have unfortunately in the same article clauses which will deprive of their votes in the next presidential contest, and in the succeeding year, some twenty thousand naturalized citizens. Are those who object to this feature, and yet approve of colored suffrage, to vote against the latter in voting against the former? Already we have intimations of schemes of a strongly centralized State government. Are we to accept them for the sake of the negro? Are we to forfeit them, if we deem them wise and beneficent. because we encounter the prejudices against him? We have sacrificed in his cause already millions of treasure and lives, the Constitutions often States, and what is most precious in our federal system. Are we to lay the reforms we here propose at his feet, and make them the sport of his fortune? I tell gentlemen they cannot thus cheat the people. This question must come before them. It must come before them in the very shape in which the gentleman from Kings [Mr. Murphy] placed it, by his amendment -upon the property qualification. The issue to be passed upon by the people in the election this fall will be the alternative between the Constitution of 1846 and that of 1867. You cannot escape this. If the clause we mature is rejected, with the rest of the instrument we propose, then section One of article Two of the present Constitution will stand. All that has been asked here is that, as this is the inevitable issue, you take it out from the text of the Constitution and present it to be passed upon by itself. And let me say here, not in order to defend the existing requirement, but in defense of the revolutionary patriots who proposed it, and of the good and wise men of the Conventions of 1821 and of 1846 who permitted it to stand, that it can hardly be regarded as a property test. In a country of superabundant land this requirement-equivalent to less than a ~4 rent-comes down below the standard for which John Bright and his associates were, a year ago, contending in England. It was intended by us to define fixity of residence, and to distinguish the freedmen of this State from the refugees of sister commu 418 nities. It was a boon to the class to which it was I and Asiatic from the white and from each other extended; and it was retained in this form in 1846, has its source far back in the womb of time and lest if presented as a naked question of colored cajnnot be obliterated for centuries of centuries. suffrage it should be taken away altogcthcr. But It is fortunate for the cause of humanity that we are told that the patriots of the Revolution, the progress of the world has not been intrusted the statesmen of 1821, the constitutional reform- to such a partnership of races. What would have ers of ]846 were behind the present time. The been its civilization if Europe in the past had age has received an enlightenment unknown to been tied to Asia and to Africa? What would them I And there is some truth in this doubtless: have been our own progress if the governing class though much false boast beside. But when they add of this Republic had been of this motley texture? that it is in contravention to the spirit of the age to We have the answer in the career of the mongrel recognize the difference of races among men, they republics below us, where the European element belie the present as much as they have misrepre- ceasingto predominate,religion runs into fetichism; sented the past. The spirit of the age! There politics into anarchy, and the dreams of humanitais not in the world a nation worthy of a name, rianism end in tragedies of blood. "Betterfiftyyears there is not a State possessing institutions deser- of Europe than whole cycles of Cathay." Better ving respect, that does not recognize the difference one year of American liberty under the institutions -the organic distinction-of race. England gov- of Washington, than centuries of such civilization erns possessions in Asia, Africa, and in Australia, as these anarchies present. Those who invite us tenfold greater than her own in territory and pop- to emulate them, point backward. They would ulation. She is, according to definition of Dis- make us retrace the path of improvement, and in raeli, more an Asiatic than a European power. the name of progress march us back into chaos. France colonizes Algeria, and seeks to subdue I do not say this in antipathy to the colored race. Farther India and Cochin China. Denmark and Without trenching upon the theological question, Holland own islands in the East and West or accepting any particular ethnological theory, I Indies, and they rule them absolutely, refusing may say that I regard them as a younger raceto the native races any participation in gov- susceptible of improvement, but as yet only fit ernment. The proud boast of an English states- for a state of pupilage and protection. I think man, so nobly paraphrased by an American that I may cite, in support of this view, the leadSenator, speaking of England, that " her morning ing minds of Europe. Michelet thus speaks of drum beat following the sun, and keeping com- them; Darwin, Huxley and that school assign pany with the hours, circles the earth with one them that inferior place; Herbert Spencer recogcontinuous and unbroken strain of the martial nizes the education of races by the reiteration of airs of England," was uttered in the pride of impressions made hereditary by thei: action domination of a ruling race. It is the tap of the upon successive generations; Agassiz, denies the drum, the bugle call to arms, the reveille to the common origin of Indian, African and white; Draper garrisoned troops, that proclaim the supremacy of speaks of the tropic races as children in characthe English over distant continents and alien ter. Unfortunately for these children they attain races. It is the mouth of the cannon that asks the age of passion before the age of reason. Like the consent of the Sepoy. It is the point of the all young people and young races they have great bayonet that wins it from the Sikhs. England imitative powers, and when mixed in with a tolerates no partnership with inferiors in the largely preponderating mass of whites, conform great trust of government. She would no more outwardly to the higher standard. Where they preadmit her Hindoos, her Caffres, her Australians, vail in numbers, as in some sections of the Union to vote than she would invite to a European con- and in the adjacent islands, they speedily fall back gress the king of Abyssinia or of Dahomey, or into barbarism. They have been developed, northe cannibal chiefs of New Zealand. She would mally as a race, no higher than the tribal condition, no more consult these inferior subjects than we and their tendency is always to recede unto it. have the Esquimaux, whom we have purchased If we regard this question in its broader viewwholsesale, without their knowledge or consent, looking beyond the five thousand men for whom and whom we propose to govern wholly according it is here asked -and estimate it as a national to our views and with entire indifference to theirs. question, affecting every State, north and south, It is a justification of our trust in the people that and still more vitally in the future, the States of time has shown that what were once called the the Pacific - we shall realize its true proporprejudices of ihe multitude are the inspiration of tions. We have seen what a population Ireland a people, and are sustained by the conclusions of and a few provinces of Germany have been able science. The question of race is the overruling to pour upon our shores. But imagine the Asiatic one in the estimation of political philosophy. tribes set swarming and lighting upon our Pacific Already is Europe endeavoring to reconstruct its slope. Imagine them claiming and receiving an map, and constitute nationality upon the basis of award of citizenship, framing laws and constitucommunity of language and of origin -to unite tions, determining the course of government, and under one autonomy the German family, in the character of public opinion, bestowing offices another the Sclaves, in another the Scandanavian. and honors, holding courts and commanding We have seen the fruits of the theory in the armies! Imagine the prevalence of Oriental vices, restoration of Italy as one nation, in the partial the obscene idolatry of the masses, the polygamous unification of Germany. And yet the differ- family, the violence and cruelty of the great, the ence between Celt and Saxon, Latin and Sclave abjectness and servility of the commonalty. What are but those of a common family and are recon- a future of American citizenship does not that cilable. The divergence of the African, Indian present I And yet every argument for the equality of the African is a plea for the more advanced Asiatic. Already our brethren in that section feel the alarm at the approaching invasion; and the Republican State Convention has declared for the exclusion of the people, not only from citizenship, but from residence. As an example to the States, I would repel here, the African, the Indian and the Asiatic from any partnership in the great trust of government. I would preserve it to the race which alone may be said to have made the history of the world; and which alone has framed institutions for the preservation of individual and communal liberty. To trust it to the barbarous and untrained hands of fresh emancipated slaves would be to put back the clock of the world for centuries. If the effect of the revolution, through which the country is now passing, shall be to give up the Gulf States to a hybrid African population, and to surrender the Pacific region to the Asiatic hordes, then the great accomplishments of our statesmanship and of our arms, the acquisition of Louisiana and Florida, of Texas and California, are thrown away. We won these fertile and golden fields for what? To take them from France and Spain and Mexico, and bestow them upon the negro and the Asiatic? Nor is the effect of our fatuity limited to these regions. We submit our own State to the rule of these hordes. The black and yellow Senators in the Federal Congress will help legislate for New York, dictate the foreign diplomacy of all the States, regulate commerce, and administer internal laws. Who does not see that with such an element in our councils we shall go backward in legislation, reviving the cruel penal statutes, the restrictions, the bigotries, the trivial pomp and costly ceremonial of the dark ages, and in our best mood, reenacting the patriarchic and protective system adapted only to immature communities. This is not progress I It is retrogression in government. The refusal to consult the people in regard to it, is but another step in that evil policy which has, in recent years and under evil counsels and the pretenses which our war has afforded substituted force and fraud for the rule of opinion. We must look for progress, through order, in the direction in which our fathers entered it, not in the excess of government, but in the relegation of the State to its fewest functions, and its simplest forms. The individual man, the family, and the voluntary associations which these form, have advanced thus far, the progress of society over the hindrances of States and governments, and their machinery of force; and to then we must look for future progress. If we are to accept of any new partnership, let it be the fair hand of woman, rather than the dusky palm held out to us though bearing gifts-profferring to some, exemption from taxes, to others offices, to localities schemes of improvement, to the speculating class increased debt. But rather let us pursue it alone, for her sake and for the inferior races, who share all the benefits of our progress and invention-for whom as well as for us the press speaks with multitudinous voice, the telegraph sends its lightning message, and steam performs its gigantic labors in mill, on rail, on river and ocean, and in the mines within the earth. Let us commit to 19 this race and to the agencies it has created, the destiny of the future; and History will unfold upon this hemisphere chapters more brilliant and beneficent than any she has yet recorded. The giant form of this republic already stretches across the continent, spanning the hours. When the sunrise gilds its brow, its feet are yet slrouded iu midnight. Let us not taint its blood by this poisonous infusion I Do not seek to tie down its immensity with the lilliputian devices of faction. Do not try to interrupt its destiny, as the African, i, the eclipse, endeavors to arrest the movement of the planets, by charms and incantations, by the noise of drums and the din and clamor of bewildered crowds. Mr. M. I. TOWNSEND -Several gentlemen on this floor have intimated that I was mistaken in charging that Professor Agassiz, at the city of Charleston, when the behest of slavery seemed to require the announcement, laid down the doctrine that the colored race were distinct in their origin from the white race. I am able now, fortunately, to strengthen my position by quoting the very words of that distinguished naturalist from his own hand. They are as follows: " The only ground I may have given to question the soundness of my views concerning the different races of men, is the opinion which I have always maintained, and which I still hold now, that the different types of the human family have an independent origin one from the other, and are not descended from common ancestors; but this idea I do not apply to the negroes only, but to the Indians, the Chinese, the Hindoos, the Australians, etc., as well. In fact, I believe that men were created in nations, not in individuals: but not in nations in the present sense of the word; on the contrary, in such crowds as exhibited slight, if any, diversity among themselves except those of sex." I do not propose here to quarrel with the opinion of Mr. Agassiz, but to state it. The gentleman from Oneida [Mr. T. W. Dwight] who is not now in his seat, has endeavored to vindicate the soundness of the opinion heretofore put forth by Professor Lieber. I think my friend, with all his labor, has not succeded in showing that distinguished scholar to be consistent with the ideas of the present age, if consistent with himself. I understand Professor Lieber to hold there are three races that are not susceptible of improvementthe Bushmen, the Hottentots and the Papous. I entirely differ with him. I know but one race - but one variety of the human race that is not susceptible of improvement, and that variety is called the "Bourbons." It is the only race I have ever seen in which individuals could not be found who had made considerable advance from the position in which their associates and themselves were born; but when you find a genuine Bourbon, he " learns nothing and forgets nothing." The gentleman from Albany [Mr. Cassidy], who has just taken his seat, and several other gentlemen upon this floor, esteem the African race so low in position that we need not look frc them to assume a position equal with ourselves in the world of intelligence. The gentleman from Albany [Mr. Cassidy], has not told us what hi8 views were in regard to the origin of the 420 human race, whether we are of a common origin, or whether our origins were diverse. But the gentleman from Kings [Mr. Murphy], and the gentleman from Rockland[Mr. Conger] came down to the substantial stand point of the christian religion, and I have no doubt if my friend from Albany had gone in extenso to give his views he would be compelled to come down to the substantial doctrine of revealed religion. Now, sir, if we adopt the christian revelation, if we adopt the sacred history as the friends of slavery; and the eminies of the black race in this country have always done, we shall be compelled to trace the origin of the negro back to Ham, the son of Noah. I accept that as his origin. It is the origin as shown by history and by christianity. Now, I wish, as the gentleman from Albany [Mr. Cassidy] is the only one of those gentlemen here present in this hall this morning, to call his attention to the fact that the sons of Ham constituting the population of ancient Egypt, built upon the banks of the river Nile, more than three thousand years ago, structures of a magnificence and proportion, such as have ever been and are even to the present day a wonder. For more than six hundred miles these edifices are now standing along the river Nile, and it seems they shall stand as the wonder of the world while time itself shall last. But, yet, as I have said, the people of Egypt were the sons of Ham, not the same variety of the race to which the colored population of this country belong. True, they had not been subjected to the climatic and local influences that have produced the form, feature and color of the African race as they exist among us; but they were of the race to which this African family belong-of the sons of Ham. The gentleman from Kings [Mr. Murphy] read from Jefferson the idea that the sons of Ham were unable to make mathematical calculations. I would like to see any scholar of the present day undertake to tell us what amount of mathematical power and capacity must have been possessed by the men who built the pyramids? What amount of learning and intelligence must be possessed by the men who built the temples of Thebes and constructed the Catacombs? What amount of progress in art was necessary to make those applications of color that stand in the Catacombs to-day, as perfect as when they were spread upon their walls. Aye more; the very letters by which this slander was uttered.npon the sons of Ham, were invented by a son of Ham, by a Phcenecianby Cadmus. And where were the ancestors of the gentleman from Kings [Mr. Murphy], and the gentleman from Rockland [Mr. Conger], and the gentleman from Albany [Mr Cassidy], and my own ancestors of that day? They were living in a darkness so dense that not a single ray of light has come down from them to the age in which we live. Not that the sons of Ham were superior to our ancestors in essential characteristics, but the sons of Ham at that day had enjoyed some of the advantages that we in this day enjoy a thousand fold increased. It is circumstances that has made us to differ, and until the spread of the christian religion among the Teutons from whom I derived my origin, and among the Celts from whom some other of these gentlemen derived their origin, there was but very little that our ancestors could boast over the negroes of Africa of the present day. Men should not forget the pit from which they were digged. Men sometimes do. My friend from Albany [Mr. Cassidy] to-day has put himself substantially in that position by quoting for our imitation the conduct of Great Britain toward subject races. If, as he has argued, it be right for England to pursue the course she has done toward her subject races, how can he avoid the argument that England, because she has the power, is justified in what she has done toward the Celtic race. He may satisfy his own mind, for there are minds formed in that way, but he has not satisfied mine. I do not believe the negro to be any better than the white man, nor more elevated than the white man, nor more learned than the white man; but I believe it is decided by history, and so it has always been true in this land, that the colored man is like the rest of the race. I will not speak of the rest of the State, but I will speak for the cohlnty of Albany, and I will speak for the county of Rensselaer-that the colored population of these counties are equal in point of morality, in point of intelligence, in point of quiet living, in point of industry and frugality, to any laboring population that we have. And there are specimens among them in my own city serving as clerks with eminent success, and one a clergyman. Certainly the rest of the clergy in my city, of any faith, Catholic or Protestant, will not hold him to be their inferior in any characteristics which marks the gentleman. We have also a surgeon, raised in our midst, who has held the rank of surgeon in the United States Army, who is now a successful surgeon in the city of Charleston. I say this not as putting this subject above every other subject, but as putting those people in a situation which shows that they ought to enjoy the rights and privileges of citizenship, and all the advantages secured in this country, to those willing to pursue those courses which lead to prosperity. But I have one word to say to the gentleman from Rockland [Mr. Conger]. The gentleman from Rockland [Mr. Conger] has endeavored to frighten us from doing justice to the colored race by assuming two or three positions which certainly cannot be maintianed. The gentleman took occasion to sneer at the suggestion made by several gentlemen upon this floor, that government, when rightfully organized, was the result of the social compact. I said in some earlier remarks which I made here, that some gentleman had taken the picture of the divine right of kings and cut out the divine right of kings and put in the divine right of society in its place, but the gentleman from Rockland [Mr. Conger] has not taken the trouble to cut out the head. He says "the sovereign electors in the State of New York hold their power by the same right that Queen Victoria holds her power in England." Queen Victoria holds her power as the heir of the conqueror of England at the battle of Hastings. I can show you how the people of this State hold their power. It will be found they hold their power by the social compact. In the preamble to the Constitution of 1777, I find the following, and I wish gentlemen to note and to see how the fathers held 421 this doctrine. The gentleman from Rockland the opposite direction. But the gentleman told [Mr. Conger] said that we came here claiming that us that philosophers had now substantially estabour government was descended from the British lished the fact that unless emigration was in government. I will show by reading this pream- isothermal lines, the emigrant might expect exterble, that this government was established even mination; and he says that he himself brought during the revolution, in defiance of the British that map, which hangs upon our walls with its government, and without any connection one suggestive lines upon it, all the way from Washwith the other. ington in order to show us that fact. This is not the " Whereas, the present government of this first time that we have heard of isothermal lines. colony, by Congress and committees, was insti- When it was proposed to extend slavery intoKansas, tuted, while the former government under the into a State whose climate is substantiallylike our crown of' Great Britain, existed in full force; and own, Robert J. Walker was dispatched all the way was established for the sole purpose of opposing from the city of Washington to Kansas to try and the usurpation of the British Parliament, and was convince the people that although they did not intended to expire on a reconciliation with Great want slavery, although they were determined they Britain, which it was then apprehended would would not have it, they must have it in consesoon take place, but is now considered remote and quence of certain mysterious isothermallines, and uncertain." yet by and bye Robert J. Walker returned, noton It will be seen that this assemblage based an isothermal, but on a bee line to the city of their action upon the ground that the govern- Washington, and the last we have heard of his ment of the State under which they then lived isothermal characteristics was in the Supreme rested in committees and congresses having no Court of the United States with toothless old authorization except the consent of the people Judge Sharkey arguing for an injunction against of the country. The gentleman from Albany the people of this Union in their attempt to [Mr. Cassidy] says the organization formed in put down the rebellion in the Southern the Mayflower proposed to govern the Indians. States, and the gentleman from Rockland [Mr. If the gentleman will look at the instrument there Conger], will have as much trouble in resistformed he will find that the framers of that instru- ing the will of the people of the State of New ment only propose to govern themselves. York as Robert J. Walker had in attempting to Mr. CASSIDY-It proposed to govern them- force slavery upon Kansas, although he brings selves and the country. to his aid the same isothermal lines. But, Mr. M. I. TOWNSEND-There is not a word says the gentleman, emigration is not successful in it except the proposition to govern themselves. unless on isothermal lines. Just look at Brazil. So that in so far as regards New England and Brazil furnishes the only example, almost, of a New York, so far as regards our national govern- successful and prosperous people who have emiment, we live under organizations formed ex- grated from Europe to this side of the water, if pressly under the social compact. One word more you throw out the emigration of the Anglo-Saxon in answer to the gentleman from Rockland [Mr. race, and their friends, the Celts and the Teutons Conger], and I am done. In one part of his argu- that came along with them. Look at Brazil. ment, in that part where he proposed to exter- Brazil is located down on the line of eighty deminate the colored race by the severity of the cli- grees of heat. The people of Portugal, who mate (for he had two parts to it, one in which he settled Brazil, came from above seventy, and proposed to have the colored race increased so nearly up to sixty, and yet is there any complaint fast as to outnumber us, and the second, in which but what the people of Brazil are healthy? any he proposed the extermination of the colored race complaint but what the people of Brazil are prosby climate). Now, in regard to so much as proposed perous? But there is another striking example to exterminate the colored race by reason of our furnished by history. I have found, and perhaps climate, I wish to quote this single fact, that in it was a reason why I ceased to insist upon being 1790 the whole colored population of the State of called a democrat, that democracy, so-called, had to New York amounted to 25,978, and that in 1860 ignore history, had to ignore facts, had to ignore the it amounted to 49,905, showing an increase almost providence of God. I find, sir, that according to histwice greater than has occurred in the Empire of tory a people started from Mecca, which is on the France, and an increase greater than the average isothermal line of eighty, passed up into northern increase of any country in Europe since that time. Africa and over into Spain, advanced up to the Mr. S. TOWNSEND- What was the popula- line of sixty, advanced above sixty up to the midtion in 1865? dle of France almost up to fifty, and were there Mr. M. I. TOWNSEND -I will answer the met not by an isothermal line, but by Charles gentleman. The population in 1865 is conceded Martel, with the powers of France on the battleby common consent to have not been properly field of Poictiers, and were only driven back by shown by the census returns. We do not know superior military force. I have learned.from what -it was, because it was improperly taken. history that that people, who for seven Sir, the gentleman from Rockland [Mr. Conger] hundred years dwelt in Spain, were not ought to have remembered that within the last only the most beautiful, physically, but the twenty years the increase of the colored popula- most intellectual people then in the world; and tion in Virginia and Maryland was so great that it yet, although they crossed isothermal lines, was estimated that those two States sold to the they were so skilled in architecture and so far southern States, of their own children, not less than ahead of the rest of the world in that department, thirty thousand in a single year. This looks very that even the Christian church has borrowed little like extermination, but it looks essentially in much of the principles of their finest architecture 422 from them. This people surpassed all the rest marks, that T would submit to the people of this of the world in mathematics, they were the very State the question whether they would extend to discoverers of algebra, they were second in the women of the State the right of suffrage. literature to no people then in the world, and such That is all that I propose. was the standing of their institutions of learning Mr. BELL-I understood him to say he was in that Christaiu scholars, or those who meant to be favor of it. scholars from the North of Europe, went to Mr. CASSIDY - As a choice between the two, learn in Moorish Spain what they could not whether we should take an alien race or not, or be taught in Christendom, notwithstanding the take that part of our own race who are only seDSaracens had crossed over isothermal lines from arated from us by sexes, I should prefer the latter. eighty degrees up to sixty, and even above that Mr. BELL - Then I understand the gentleman line. Sir, isothermal lines are lines of fallacy- is in favor of incorporating into the Constitution lines of nonsense. They are lines of individuals the privilege of allowing them to vote. got up for the same philosophical purposes that Mr. CASSIDY —I am in favor of submitting Agassiz made his great announcement at Charles- such a question to the people. ton; and for the same reason that Dr. Lieber, Mr. BELL-I think the gentleman does not when he published his philosophy, placed the fully and directly answer me. My inquiry was negro in so low a social and intellectual position to know if he was in favor of allowing the women as he did. But sir, God placed our common an- in this State to vote. cestors in a country whose climate was substan- Mr. CASSIDY- When that question comes up, tially like our own, in Mesopotamia, up between I will meet it at the polls, as I will all other questhe Tigris and Euphrates, and some have gone tions, voting on it by ballot. to the north and some to the south and although Mr. BELL - But at the present time the gentlea little acclimation was occasionally necessary, man is disposed to evade the question? yet no case can be found where a people continued Mr. CASSIDY - At present I propose to to flourish for two hundred years where the cli- answer the question in that way. I think the mate and the country prevented their success and measure of the acceptability of a particular eletheir prosperity. But I have another illustration ment to a constituency is the measure of that I think will be very pat to my old whilom its fitness therefor. If the black race in Van Buren, free soil friend of 1848, from Rock- this country have so won upon the good opinion land [Mr. Conger]. In 1862 certain men from of the governing race here that they would the State of Massachusetts, with Ben Butler at incorporate them into the constituency itself, their head, found it desirable to cross the [ am willing that should be done. I consider that isothermal lines from North to South, to go into the test for their fitness, and I consider that the a hotter latitude-to the city of New Orleans. proper tribunal to pass upon it. I can see nothThere were men in this country who not only ing more fit, nothing more proper, than that those told us about isothermal lines, but who rejoiced who now carry on the business of the State, and publicly in the belief that nothing but death and who for a century almost have carried it on, certain destruction awaited these men even if they should have this question in their own hands subpassed the enemies' batteries and locked them- stantially, and that if the whole of the colored selves in the city of New Orleans. Yet they population are fitted to vote without any further went there, and instead of being troubled with requirements, or any further limitation, that they the isothermal lines they put the common sense of should so pronounce it; and when they so prothose people who organized the government of nounce it I will accept it, and accept it cheerfully, Massachusetts under the social compact, the com- with all its consequences. I maintain the same mon sense of those travelers and wandering ground as to women. If the present existing emissaries from Massachusetts, spoken of by the constituency think the difficulties which apparently gentleman from Rockland [Mr. Conger] - they stand in the way of women voting are surmountaput that common sense in practice in the city ble, then I would say admit them also. It is a quesof New Orleans, and while the men from the tion of high expediency; it is a question of great icy north-east, who had been accustomed to seriousness, and I acknowledge it is a revolution, the north-east wind from the banks of New- a great social revolution, and it is to be approached foundland, were in the city of New Orleans, with a great deal of thought, and a great deal of yellow fever never entered it. I should think the deliberation, and slowly and by degrees, and theregentleman and his friends would begin to feel fore I would decide it by submission to the people. that nothing was impossible, that even isothermal I hardly believe that the admission of women lines raised no barrier unsurmountable by men of into the constituency would be carried if submitted intelligence, who have a belief in God and intend now. I do not know but what it might be carried to keep their powder dry. at some future day, and I am willing that the Mr. BELL- When the gentleman from Albany advocates of such a measure should have a chance [Mr. Cassidy] took his seat, I meant to ask to make the test of its strength before the people, him a question, and with his permission I will and to make the approach to its final consummaask him now. He referred several times in his tion by an appeal to test. remarks to the rights of the women of this State. Mr. BELL- Should the proposition be sibmitI would ask him respectfully whether he is in ted to the people, how will the gentleman from favor of engrafting in the present Constitution a Albany [Mr. Cassidy] vote on it? provision to allow them to vote. Mr. CASSIDY-When the timecomes I shall Mr. CASSIPY-In answer to the gentleman I decide how to vote then, and I shall vote by balwould say what I stated at the close of my re- lot, as I told the gentlemnn. 423 Mr. M. I. TOWNSEND-I wish to ask the soon after men turned pale everywhere when they gentleman from Albany [Mr. Cassidy], one saw the scepter of rule over woman and her question, respectfully. property departing from them. Now but few can Mr. RATHBUN-I think we have a rule be found in the State who will own that they ever which prevents a gentleman from making more hesitated to grant her those rights, and not more than one speech upon a pending amendment. than two or three in this Convention have the Mr. CASSIDY - It will hardly prevent gentle- ungallantry to cast doubt upon the propriety of men from asking questions, and I believe I have those eminently just and humane measures. Now the floor. that she asks the right of self-government upon Mr. RATHBUN-I call the gentleman to order, terms of equality with man, so long and so unand I think I have a right to do it under the rule. justly withheld, gentlemen hold up their hands in The CHAIRMAN —The Chair decides that if utter amazement at the demand. Probably her the gentleman from Cayuga [Mr. Rathbun] insists request will receive in this Convention, about the upon his point of order, if there are any other same support her plea for the right of property did gentlemen on the floor who desire to speak, the in the Legislature twenty years ago; but I pregentleman from Albany [M\r. Cassidy] and the diet that twenty years hence few men will be gentleman from Rensselaer [Mr. M. I. Townsend] found to acknowledge they even so much as quesmust give way. tioned the propriety of doing this act of simple jusMr. KINNEY-I do not suppose this question tice. The gentleman from Rockland [Mr Conger] of negro suffrage is now legitimately before the protested against any relinquishment of power on committee. I do not desire to discuss that the part of those who now enjoy a monopoly of question, but as I understand it the question it. He said the sovereign power of the State is is up6n the amendment offered by the gen- vested in the present voting population, and he tleman from Richmond [Mr. Curtis], and upon denounced the proposition for a surrender of any that I desire very briefly to say a few words, percentage of it to those who do not now enjoy namely, upon the right of women to vote. it. This has been the plea of crowned heads and In my anxiety to have the work of this Convention privileged classes in all ages of the world. It is progress and culminate in a perfected Constitution the argument of the aristocracy of England to-day within such reasonable period of time as will not against a surrender of a percentage of their power bring odium and contempt upon it and upon its to the seven or eight millions of disfranchised men labors, I have foreborne thus far to offer any in that kingdom. His speech would have been extended remarks upon any question that has extremely pertinent, though not perhaps proporbeen before it. The question of removing the tionately powerful, as a speech in the English parrestrictions that have heretofore been placed on liament againt the franchise bill. The money woman, and of allowing her the free exercise changers of this State gave up the blessed priviof her self-governing powers in common with lege of sending their debtors to jail, only after a man, seems to require something more than long and arduous struggle. The ballot was given has yet been offered upon that subject. The the poor man under protests not unlike those world has long been accustomed to regard heard in this Convention, by the parties who woman as the mere appendage, instead of the believed the power of the State should be wielded counterpart and co-equal of man. Constitutions by the property holders of the State. That branch and laws have been framed upon the hypothesis of the democratic party which had ruled this that she is inferior in capacity, and designed by country so long and with such an iron hand, the Creator to occupy a subordinate, if not a when they saw the scepter of political power slavish condition in life. And it was not until the departing from them, sought to retain it American Revolution developed the idea that all by thrusting their country into the most men are created with equal rights that the other terrible civil war the world ever saw, idea was suggested that possibly woman might and they gave up the right to enslave be included in that formula. Hitherto her person their fellow man only at the cannon's mouth. In and her property had been so completely and ab- keeping with this death-like grasp on political solutely sunk upon entering the marriage relation power, is the refusal of gentlemen to-day to part that the law scarcely knew of the existence of with any percentage of it by permitting other such being. She had few rights which the laws, classes to exercise those natural rights of selfor the men who made the laws, were bound to government on equal terms with themselves. Sir. respect. But under the civilization of the age, we are parting with a percentage of our political and its wonderful discoveries in all the depart- power every day. Foreigners who land upon our ments of science and philosophy, she has been shores are continually demanding political power discovered and brought to light, since which and it is granted. The young men, as they arrive period she has been gradually emerging and aris- at the age of manhood, demand a voice in the ing to the stand point of perfect equality with her work of self-government and they have it; former lord and master. But her natural rights but if the argument of the gentlemen from have never been, to any great extent, restored to Rockland [Mr. Conger] is worth anything it her without a desperate struggle on the part of would shut from out the pale of State those who had usurped them. Some twenty sovereignty, the boys that are waiting upon us in years ago, when it was proposed in this State to this house when they too shall arrive at manhood; recognize her personal existence while a feme for the sovereignty of the State, when it is concovert, and also her rights of property, there ferred upon them, will be withdrawn from us to were not more than a half dozen senators who that extent. But, sir, I dissent from the whole the. dared vote to relinquish to her those rights; and ory that society confers rights upon anybody. The 424 right of self government, upon which our whole No one has yet shouldered the inevitable task of superstructure is based, is in the man. It has showing her destitute of any of the essential been written by the finger of God himself upon elements of government which inhere in man. the mental constitution of everyhumanbeing, and Any attempt of the kind would be met by in such unmistakable characters that it is impos- the fact so familiar to every mind that she is sible for us to misunderstand, misinterpret or already intrusted with the most complicated nistranslate them. We need not go back to Aris- and arduous tasks of government, such as totle or other heathen authorities upon this the government of the family and the school; subject. We have but to read man himself and it it needless for me to say that she performs and there we find the law strong as Holy Writ. those difficult governing duties with a degree of If I were disposed to quote authority, I would success which has never yet characterized the give that of the ablest legal commentator that has opposite sex. Why should she not vote? Genyet written upon the subject, who says that tlemen say it is not her legitimate sphere. Any " political or civil liberty, which is that of a mem- sphere is her legitimate sphere which she can fill ber of society, is no other than natural liberty so with credit to herself, and without detriment to far restrained by human laws (and no farther) as society. A few years since owning and managing is necessary and expedient for the general advan- property was not her sphere; school teaching tage of the public." In addition to which I would was not her sphere; the store, and the counting say that, civil or political rights are man's natural room, and the post-office, and the printing office, rights so far restrained (and no farther) as shall and the apothecary shop, and the medical office, be necessary for the good of the whole. If this and the lecture room, etc. etc., were not her sphere. be not true then our immortal Declaration of Inde- All these, and many other like situations which pendence is a myth, and our political fabric built have heretofore been filled by men exclusively, upon the sand, and we had better, therefore, hasten she has filled with so much propriety and back to the divine right of kings to rule the ability that the question as to her sphere in people instead of depending upon that subterfuge these directions has become almost obsolete. -the divine right of the people to rule themselves. Other gentlemen fear the disrupture of the I repeat, sir, the right of self-government exists family. The most intense and violent feuds which in the man, and all that society can do in its cor- have ever disturbed society have grown up from porate capacity is to regulate the exercise of that religious and sectarian differences. Would genright; or, for certain prudential reasons to restrict tlemen, therefore, say that none but the men shall it altogether. Society cannot confer the right; have anything to say or do with matters of relibut it may regulate it, and for its own safety it gion? One gentleman has held up before our may in certain cases refuse its exercise. This frightened visions the horrible idea of allowing right of self-government does not inhere in the vile women of our large cities to vote. Would the child, for the laws of its very being that gentleman point to them as representative clearly demonstrates that it is dependent for women of the State of New York; as a proper support and government upon the natural index of his wife and my wife; of his daughters parent, and has not yet attained to the con- and my daughters? What would the gentlemen dition of self-support, self-dependence and self- of this Convention say it I should, as a reason government., But when it is developed to that why men should not vote, present before condition, then I insist that all the rights of self- them those vile masculine wretches who pollute government which pertain to any other member certain portions of the city of New York? And of society attach to him; and if society refuses how would my democratic friends regard me him the exercise of them, except for certain pru- should I hold up to view the voting population of dential reasons, then it is an usurper, and violator Mackerelville and Five Points as representative of God's immutable law. Foreigners may proper- democratic voters of the State? If these women ly be refused the ballot until they shall have were not introduced as representative characters, become so familiar with our system of free gov- then why were they introduced at all? Sir, I ernment, and become so purged of their prejudices believe the women of those localities are better in favor of their own, that they can vote intelli- than the men-I never saw a locality in which gently and with safety to our form of society. they were not better than the men. And notwithIt is refused to idiots, the insane and felons for standing all the efforts of the gentleman to dis. those prudential reasons which readily suggest parage them as a voting element of society, by themselves to every mind. I now desire to showing that they had become so demoralized as apply these principles to the question before to be nearly one-fourth as bad as the men, I us, the right of women to vote. It is readily find by the prison statistics before me that seen tkat the foundation is laid for woman the native-born women are but one-twentieth suffrage. Woman is but the counterpart of man as bad as the men; that is, there were twenty -the two constitute the genius of the race. men in the prisons of the State in 1866 to one Man possesses no faculty or power of mind woman, and of foreign birth there were ten men whatever which woman does not also possess, and to one woman, In examining the pauper statistics in a mental point of view they are in truth the I find the male paupers largely in excess of the counterpart of each other. If mind votes and females. With such ratio of criminality and paurules and governs, and not wealth or physical perism in favor of the woman, I think we need structure, then the right of woman to vote, rule not fear that our elections will be brought into and govern is no less than that of man, and there- disgrace by allowing this better element of society fore the onus lies on those who refuse her that to vote. Those who have attended political meetright to show the sufficient reason for the refusal. ings where the women were present know that 425 they are conducted with decency and propriety, and are free from the obscenity, profanity and drunkenness which too frequently characterize those composed exclusively of men. Their presence at the polls would have the same humanizing and refining effect. Our elections would be held in more comfortable and respectable places, and much of the vulgarity, rowdyism and blasphemy which now pollute their atmosphere would be banished. Instead of dragging woman down it would bring the men up to a better political standard. Those who visited California in the early history of that State can call to mind the condition of a purely masculine society. Violence, terror and crime ruled with a high hand, but woman has civilized that beautiful land and made it, socially, a civilized State. Those who complain so bitterly and no doubt reasonably of the corrupt condition of our politics, should not be at loss for one of the best remedies which the elements of society afford; it is woman voting. A State under purely masculine rule must be characterized by those cold, stern, severe elements of government which characterize masculine society. The State and all her institutions necessarily partake of the nature of her voting population, and we never can infuse into it those purer, warmer, more generous and more humane elements until those elements of society are felt at the ballpt box. This State will never become our idea of a perfect State until it is made to impersonate all the elements of a perfect society and a perfect humanity. Mr. BECKWITH-Mr. Chairman, I did not intend to address to this Convention any remarks on this subject, nor do I now rise for the mere purpose of inflicting a speech upon the committee. I do, however, desire to submit a few remarks for its consideration. When this debate opened on the report of the committee, my mind was not settled a's to any rule that should govern in determining who should be or were, on principle, entitled to the elective franchise. While listening to the debate I have endeavored to discover some rule, to be founded on principle and of general application, that would solve all the difficulties that surround the subject. Some such rule, that would place the right to the elective franchise on a solid basis, resting on those principles of justice, truth and right, that would bear the severest scrutiny and criticism. I am opposed to arbitrary rules to define and govern so great a right as that of the elective franchise. The people of this State are a thinking people, and they will never be satisfied with arbitrary rules in a matter of so great importance. But give them a rule founded on the true principles of right, and they will be satisfied and adopt it. The subject, who is entitled to that right, seems to be occupying the public mind in this State and nation, and seems to be struggling for the development of some such rule as will determine and settle on sound principles, to whom the right should be given as a matter of right-a rule that shall rest on a firm basis. It may, it seems to me, be justly termed a great thought agitating and struggling inthe public mind to assume form and develop itself into the embodiment of some rule that shall securely establish the right to all who should of right 54 enjoy it. Such has been the case in all ages of the world, in relation to great ideas. All who are familiar with history, know that great thoughts have struggled often for ages in the human mind for the full and clear development and expression of great principles of morals and especially of government, and they have gradually assumed form and in the process of time received a name or such a brief expression of them so clearly defining them, that they have become common truths, and the common property of mankind, and great land-marks for the guidance of all. Such was the case in respect to the great principles enunciated in the immortal Declaration of Independence; and yet some of those truths are still struggling for a more distinct and definite form of expression. Such, it seems to me, is the glorious idea suggested by the expression, that all governments derive their just powers from the consent of the governed. That great thought is now struggling in the public mind, not only of this State but of this nation, for a more definite form of expression, so that the exact truth shall be exhibited to the mind of all. This, some say, is manhood suffrage -others that it is manhood and womanhood suffrage. I think the time is not far distant before some rule for the guidance of all will find an expression, founded on the principles of eternal justice, truth and right, in such form as to make it clear to all minds, and make it the common property of all men, like that other great truth of the Declaration of Independence, " that all men are created free and equal, and are endowed by their Creator with certain inalienable rights; that among these are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness." Who doubts that this expression of the great principles of human rights has not so deeply burned itself, if I may be allowed to use the expression, into the hearts, thoughts and conscience of this nation, as to have been the principal cause that has led to the abolition of slavery in this nation and to the aspirations of people in many other lands for freedom. I have "been an attentive listener to the debates on this floor, to see if I could discover the true rule, to be founded on principle and of general application, which should be adopted in regard to the elective franchise, so clear and distinct as to carry with it, in its form and expression, a conviction of its truth, and so far I have not heard any gentleman lay down, or attempt to lay down any definite rule, except the gentleman from Oneida [Mr. T. W. Dwight], and I am very much oblhged to him for what he has said on that subject. It does not satisfy my mind to say that manhood suffrage, or manhood and womanhood suffrage should be the rule. They are too uncertain to be the expression of principle. They do not define the matter so as to be a clear and distinct rule of action, and they do not suggest to my mind any definite rule. I wish to avoid all arbitrary rules. The gentleman from Schenectady [Mr. P1aige] stated to us very clearly the legal rights of the different members of society-such as their civil and political rights-and in respect to his statements of them till he came to the one called the elective franchise, I discovered no ground of dissent, nor do I dissent from his definition of 426 that franchise-nor do I intend to express any dissent to his statement, if I understand him correctly, that the governmental power of this State is, in fact, vested in those, and those only, who under the Constitution and laws of this State are authorized to exercise the elective franchise. But when he says that they, and they only, possess the right, if he means anything more than the legal right, then I am forced to dissent. It is only the old exploded doctrine that might gives right. If he had said they, and they only, possess the power, then he would have spoken correctly. Nor do I agree with him that they only, who under the Constitution and laws of this State are authorized to vote, are the only persons who are entitled as a matter of right to the privilege of voting, and that all other persons are only entitled to that privilege as a right, when the authorized voters shall grant it to them. I do not believe the extension of the elective franchise to persons not now authorized by the laws of this State to vote, is a mere matter of favor or grace, on the contrary I insist that if they are qualified by their intelligence, virtue and love of country, and the exercise of that right by them in no way impairs or impedes the rightful progress of society, and the just and more full development of its moral, intellectual and material improvement, they have, as members of society, the right to insist upon the elective franchise-not simply the right to ask it as a matter of favor or of grace, from those who enjoy the privilege, but as an inalienable right, if you please. For I believe the Supreme author of all things, created man, that is, all men, social beings, and endowed them with a mental constitution or powers of mind that may be greatly developed, and which fit them for society, and which find their greatest and best enlargement and their highest good in society, in meeting all the relations that grow out of organized society, and in discharging the duties that spring from those relations. The Sovereign of the universe has so constituted man that he cannot, or at least will not, rise to that high elevation which his maker intended, outside of society. Hence I insist that every human being who shall possess the before mentioned qualifications, and none of the disqualifications which I have barely hinted at, has the right to demand as a right, and not as a favor or matter of grace, the elective franchise, with perhaps one solitary exception, and that exception is limited in its operation. I refer to minors. There need be and should be in my judgement no arbitrary rules not founded on principle, to exclude any person, not otherwise qualified, from voting. Infants are excluded on the principle of incompetency for their own good and the good of society, and the rule excluding them is not arbitrary. There is nothing in it of that character except fixing the time of exercising it at twenty-one years of age. The proper government of society requires fixed and certain rules, and the one that fixes the timo when minors shall arrive at twenty-one has been ascertained by experience to be the best. It fixes it at that age for his good and the good of society, and protects him from all his imovidet agreements made while under that age. Te only doubt that has arisen in my mind grows out of the fact that he is compelled at the age of eighteen to take up arms in defense of his country in case she needs his aid at that are. It may be said that many young men at eighteen are better qualified in every respect to exercise the right than many voters. True, but the good of society requires certain and fixed rules, so that the one mentioned is not entirely an arbitrary rule. I am constrained to dissent from the position taken by the very learned and able gentleman from Schenectady [Mr. Paige], that the elective franchise of right belongs to those only who now enjoy it under the Constitution and laws of the State, and that its extension to others is matter of favor or grace and not one of right. If the principle which he stated, that the legal voters of a country alone have the right to extend or withhold, as a matter of right, the elective franchise from any class of society possessing in other respects the proper qualifications, should prevail, then, as they have the power, they can gradually lessen the classes who vote, and thus in the end establish, instead of a democracy, an aristocracy, or even a monarchy-and his position, it seems to me, would be the strongest safeguard of a monarchy or of an absolute sovereign. An absolute monarch can say to his subjects, the right of suffrage is not vested in any of my subjects, it can rightfully be exercised by none of them unless I grant it as a favor; if I grant it as a favor.to some few of my most wealthy and intelligent subjects, it is a matter of grace. Such it seems to me to be the tendency of his argument upon this point, and such is the rule, I think, that now prevails in many governments in Europe. It is contrary, it seems to me, to sound principle and at war with the spirit of our institutions. For one I believe the right of suffrage does not come merely as a favor from the governing power, the present legal voters. The right springs from his constitution as a man designed by his maker for society and so constituted by his creator that in it he can adorn and develop his intellectual and moral powers, and in it, and not out of it, find his highest good, improvement and happiness. Now, sir, what I have desired is, that we might by a full discussion of this subject bring out some rule or proposition that should place the right on principle and be so clear as to carry home conviction to the minds of all. I shall not attempt to lay down any rule. The propositions of the gentleman from Oneida [Mr. T. W. Dwight] strike my mind with force, and I have tried to discover, whether there is anything wrong in them as explained by him, or whether they were defective, or whether from the suggestions which they raise, a brief and better rule might not be established. He says, in substance, there are two classes that should be excluded from suffrage: "The first class is those who have personal incapacities, and the second class those who, having no personal incapacities, would, by their action in a particular case, tend to arrest the progress of the government, or perhaps to subvert it." Now that gentleman has shown to my satisfaction that the colored race cannot be justly denied the right of suffrage on the ground of incapacity. But he has riot attempted to show that the exercise of the franchise by that race may not m some way retard or injure society in some of its departments 427 or interests. But this has been done by other gentlemen on this floor, and I will not go over the different arguments, They are satisfactory to my mind, and establish satisfactorily to my mind that none of the interests of society would be injured or impaired by granting that privilege to the colored man. The only plausible injury suggested by the opponents to such grant is that it may injure the social relations of society. To that I answer: 1st. That you cannot by law regulate the social relations of society. 2d. The danger of increasing the commingling of the blood of the two races. Sir, do you or I, or any reflecting man believe that if the colored race had not been subjected to that abominable and wicked rule, enunciated by the late Chief Justice of the United States Court, that a colored man has no rights which a white man is bound to respect, one-tenth part of that great and truly alarming evil would have existed. Why, sir, that rule was lived up to at the' South. The colored woman had no right to protect or be the keeper of her own chastity, nor could her father or husband or brother, even attempt to protect her against the demands of any brute in the form of a white man, only on peril of his life. Sir, if the civil and political rights had been enjoyed by the colored people of the South, nine-tenths of that evil, in my opinion, would not have happened. It is necessary, to protect the community from that evil, that political rights should be added to the civil rights of the colored people, and then, in my opinion, the community is better protected from that great evil. But I have said enough on that subject. It may be asked, how can you deny the elective franchise to women. To answer that, I will briefly say that, if you grant to women the same right to vote that men enjoy, I am apprehensive that you will, to be consistent, have to give to them the right to hold offices, and I am, at least, apprehensive that it will weaken the true foundations of society. The Good Book says, " evil communications corrupt good manners." Woman's perceptions of right and wrong are far more clear than man's; she is sensible to the approach of vice, and that is her great safeguard. But open, visible and sensible familiarity with vice will corrupt. It first blunts that nice perception and destroys that delicate sensibility. If destroyed or weakened in woman, as they are in men, one of the safeguards of society and of woman is equally impaired. It is a prayer which we all need to make, "Lead us not into temptation." Now, is there not danger in thus throwing open to woman the privilege of voting, of holding offices, and entering into the presence of all the busy scenes of vice and immorality, that voters and office-holders of necessity have to witness, that woman will be lowered from what now constitutes her glory and her power, to the level of man; and by thus impairing her moral power, you weaken the foundations of good society and good government. She now occupies a higher position than man. On the women of the land depends much and the best of the interests of this country. I have listened with great interest and attention to the able, eloquent and thrilling argument of the gentleman from Richmond [Mr. Cur tis], but my judgment has not been convinced that evil and even danger would not result from extending the elective franchise to woman-that you would not be doing her as well as society a wrong. Mr. SMITH-I shall feel compelled to vote against the extension of suffrage to women. and as I have among my immediate constituents persons whom I highly esteem, and for whose judgment I have great respect, it seems to be but just to them, as well as to myself, that I should accompany that vote with the reasons which induce me to give it. I will not undertake in the limited time allowed us here, to discuss elaborately the question, but only state in outline some of the reasons and arguments that induce me to vote against it. We are met, in limine, in this discussion with the question: Is the elective franchise a natural right? Because, if it be a natural right, I do not understand how we can deny it to women, to minors, or to foreigners; and if I believed it to be a natural right, I should at once, in order to be consistent with myself and with principle, vote for its extension to women. But as I understand it, and as I think it has been shown by various gentlemen who have addressed the committee, it is not a natural right. What is a natural right? It is a right that is inherent in humanity; a right given by God; a right that pertains to humanity unddr all circumstances, to the old and to the young, the black and the white, to minors as well as adults, and to women as well as men. As I suggested the other day, under the Patriarchal government which existed for sixteen or seventeen centuries, and under the Theocracy where God himself was the civil ruler, this right was not given to woman. Why not, if it be a natural right, a right bestowed by the Creator? Is it to be supposed that during the Theocracy God denied to his creatures the exercise of those rights which He had given, and which they had not forfeited? No respectable writer upon the science of civil government can be found who holds that this is a natural right. Even John Stuart Mill, whose argument upon this subject has been laid on our tables, does not pretend that it is a natural right, or an absolute right, but distinctly affirms the contrary, and puts his argument on the ground of expediency. Civil government, as I understand it, is simply the instrument or power by whicn society governs and regulates the conduct of its members. The right to take part in government is, according to the most approved authorities, a political right. In the very able argument presented by the gentleman from Schenectady [Mr. Paige], he regards it not as a political right, but as a franchise, or privilege. It is not, in my judgment, a matter of much importance, whether it be classed as a right or a privilege; but I find some of the most approved writers upon the science of government who denominate it a political right. They mean a right, or privilege if you please, which society, in the formation of its organic law, leaves with, orgrants to, certain portions of its citizens. There is a certain end which society has to secure to wit: the highest good of the individual a a member of society, and in doing that it may adopt such rules as are necessary and proper. Tfe gentleman from Schenectady [Mr. Paige] pasEd 428 some criticisms upon the unstudied remarks which I had the honor to submit a few days ago. He said that if I derived the right of the colored man to participate in the administration of government from the statement in the Declaration of Independence that " all men are created free and equal" I must apply it equally to the women, because women are included in the generic term, "all men." I concede that women are included in that generic term, but cannot admit the gentleman's inference. This enunciation in our Declaration, implies the same natural rights, and equality before the law. It requires that no unjust or invidious distinction be made in government. It demands the same right and privileges for the colored man that belong to the white man, other things being equal. But, sir, it does not ignore natural distinctions, nor does it involve, necessarily, an identity of sphere or sameness of functions. There may be, and there are reasons why man should participate in government, and woman should not, which do not imply inequality in the sense of the Declaration of Independence. We demand suffrage for colored men because they are men, and exclude women because they are women, and this is not incompatible with equality before the law as enunciated in the Declaration of Independence. Now, if this be a correct position, then it follows that society may exclude persons and classes from participation in the administration of government for good cause, and the question arises, what is good cause? What rule shall we lay down to guide us on this subject? It is difficult, sometimes, to ascertain the correct rule of action in this matter. The best analysis of this question that I have found, is contained in the chapter upon civil government in the Moral Science of President Hopkins, one of the ablest minds in the nation. He lays down, in substance, these rules: First, we may exclude classes and persons from participation in the administration of government, who are hostile to the welfare of society. This would exclude criminals, factions, and races known to be hostile to society. Mr. RATHBUN-And rebels. Mr. SMITH-And rebels, as the gentleman suggests. I will accept the amendment. Mr. SMITH-The second ground of exclusion is incompetency to understand and promote the ends of society. Under this rule we exclude minors and foreigners. It is true that there are some minors at the age of eighteen, and perhaps younger, who understand as much of our government as many who have the privilege of voting. But where the right is not absolute, society must fix the best average limit it can. Like all general rules, it is possible that this may, in some cases, operate arbitrarily and unjustly. The third rule laid down is this: Where there are such relations established by God that one portion of the community cannot take part in the administration of government without injury to the ends of society, then that portion may be excluded. It is under this rule that we exclude women. And, it il be perceived, that it is not upon the ground of hsi: lity to government, nor upon the ground of iompetecy to understand the interests of society tate Is exluded. It isnt upon the ground of inferiority, or inequality before the law, but upon the ground that God, in the creation of man, has made certain fundamental distinctions,whereby if one portion of the community is permitted to participate in government, it would not tend to promote the best interests of society, but on the contrary, would necessarily tend to its injury. Sir, that it is proper to exclude women under this rule, appears to me obvious from several considerations. First, it appears from a universal sentiment of humanity. It is universally felt to be improper for women to participate in government. It may be said that this is a mere prejudice, which has come down to us from former generations; but it seems to me, sir, that the sentiment is so general, so common to all ages and all countries, that we must conclude that it is implanted by God; and it is never safe to violate a true instinct of humanity. It appears, secondly, from the constitution of woman, physically, mentally and morallyMr. KINNEY- May I be permitted to ask a question? I would like to inquire if there is not a more distinctive and clearly marked preiudice in the public mind against allowing negroes to take part in the government than there is against women? Mr. SMITH —Not at all. You go to England and the prejudice which exists against color in this country is not found there; it is confined to our country entirely, and grows out of the degradation of that class caused by the wrongs to which it has been subjected here. It is a wicked, unworthy and mean prejudice, which does not prevail in England. Fred. Douglass, whom you would exclude from voting in this State, if in England, would be treated with as much respect as any gentleman who might visit that country. Mr. KINNEY -I ask if it is not also a contemptible and mean prejudice which we have against women's voting, and equally to be condemned? Mr. SMITH - I will answer that. I claim that I have as high a respect for woman as any man, and think I have given some evidence of it in my time. It is because I respect her character, because I would keep her where she is in her sphere of power and influence, that I do not wish to give her the privilege of voting, and thus drag her down from her high position. I was about to say, when interrupted, or had said, that another reason for excluding woman is on account of the difference, physical, mental and moral, between man and woman, indicating clearly that they were designed for different spheres. My third reason is found in Revelation, which teaches the headship of man, both in relation to woman and to the family. I know that some of these moder women's-rights men, as they are called, and women's-rights women, have but very little respect, apparently, for the Bible. They talk about it flippantly, and cast aside, as matters of very little consequence, the rules and principles which are clearly enunciated in the sacred oracles. But I trust it will be a long time before we shall cease to regard that book as the foundation of our free government, and the only safe rule of our faith and practice. If man is the divinely appointed head in the family, which is woman's special sphere, why not in the State, for whose broad 429 and rugged duties woman is unfitted? Here, as a mother's tender care; and if that home were always, nature and Revelation agree. While destroyed what could compensate for the loss? woman is physiologically and psychologically un- There is another matter bearing upon this quesfitted for these duties, she is adapted to the tion, to which I will simply allude in this connecsphere for which God designed her, and which. tion. There is a great and growing evil in though different, is not inferior to that of man. American society which has awakened the serious It is never wise or safe to disturb the divinely consideration of many amongst us, and atarranged machinery of society. The Bible also tracted the attention of distinguished foreigners clearly indicates the unity of the family; and I who have visited our country. I allude to the believe in the doctrine of the gentleman, who growing disinclination on the part of maraddressed the committee the other night, from ried women to the holy office of materRockland [Mr. Conger], that in society and in the nity. It is true, our population is increasing,but the administration of its affairs, the family is a unit, increase is mainly through the influx of foreigners. the father and husband being the head and If women were permitted to participate in governrepresentative. I believe that to be the doc- ment, and should devote themselves to the duties trine of the Bible, the doctrine of common and functions hitherto exercised by men, it would sense, and the only safe rule of action. inevitably result in an aggravation of this serious Again, I infer the propriety of her exclusion, from evil. I insist, sir, that it does not follow because the consequences that would result from disturb- woman's sphere is different from man's, that ing the divine arrangement. In my judgment, not- therefore it is lower. It is a false assumpwithstanding all that has been said to the contrary, tion that woman is degraded by an exclusion the result would be the destruction of the family I from the elective franchise. It is not a The family - the nursery of civilization, of patri- degradation unless she is entitled to the right, and otism and of piety; that little sanctuary of do- excluded upon grounds derogatory to her characmestic bliss where the mother is the presiding ter. You must first show that she is entitled to angel; the thought of which sweetens the toil of the right, before you can predicate degradation the laborer, sustains the business man in his round upon a deprivation of it. I insist upon it, that in of toil, enables the statesman to bear the load her present high sphere, she has a power and of cares that press upon him, comforts the heart influence that she would not and could not of the sailor upon the ocean wave, cheers the have if transferred to another sphere for which soldier on the tented field, and nerves his arm to she has no adaptation. It is a mistake to supdeeds of valor in the deadly strife. Who can es- pose that the most noisy and demonstrative timate the power of a mother's love as it operates agency is the most powerful. The thunderon the man in after life, when he goes out among bolt that goes crashing through the sky, folthe temptations, the strifes and cares of lowed by deafening peals, is powerful, but no the world? That mother's love-its memory more so than the silent forces of nature that echoes through all the chambers of the soul like unlock the fetters of winter, liberate the juices of angel voices; its divine influence is an enduring the plants and send them through every vein, talisman; its sweet fragrance is a holy charm. vivifying the whole, and causing leaf, and bud, We have experienced it, we know it, and feel it- and blossom to come forth, and clothe the earth with beauty, the fields with verdure, and fill the I"M mothern' voice, how oft doth creep husbandman's barn with plenty. But it is said Its cadence o'er my lonely hours, Like healing scent on wings of sleep, that woman is taxed and therefore she should Or dew to the unconscious flowers. have representation, that taxation and representaI can't forget her meltin prayer, ion cannot be rightfully dissevered. This position E'en when my pulses madly fly, is specious, but not sound. To every general rule As in the till roken air, is specious, but not sound. To every general rule Her gentle tones come stealing by; adopted by society for its government, there will And years, and sin, and manhood flee, always be some exceptions, and the few widows And leve me at my mothers knee.and unmarried ladies who are taxed are excepNot the brawling, brazen politician, but the gen- tional cases. If the rule admits of no limitations tle, loving, tender, faithful mother, who watched or exceptions, then we must apply it to foreigners over our childhood in the sanctuary of home. and minors. Their property is taxed, and Change her, transfer her to another sphere, and they have no direct representation, but they you have no such mother, you have robbed her of have the protection of government for which her influence, bereft her of her power, and blotted their tax may be regarded as an equivalent. out that home forever I It is said by gentlemen that But, sir, if the rule is inflexible, admitting of no merely allowing women to vote would not produce departure from it, then I would say give up the such a result, but the advocates of this measure taxation. If it is not right to tax women when claim that they shall have not only the right to they have not the privilege of voting, then vote, but the right to hold office; that they shall refrain from taxing them. Better by far lose the be equal with men and participate in all the affairs little revenue derived from that source, than to of government; that they shall enter the learned turn society into chaos. I object also to this meaprofessions, go to the field of battle, sit upon sure, and the mode in which its claims are urged, juries, and in short, that they shall enjoy all the because it assumes that there is an antagonism privileges, and perform all the functions of between the sexes. Mrs. Stanton, who addressed men in the administration of government. the Convention the other evening, said that if George Washington, and many of the best men women had had the exclusive right of legislation that the world has ever seen, have attributed as long as men, they would have legislated man their success in. life to the influence of home and into a nut shell before this time. Antago 430 between the sexes? What! Man opposed to the gentleman if he does not think the ballot the right of woman! Who are the women? would equalize the rates of wages between males They are, sir, our mothers, our sisters, our wives and females; if conferring the ballot upon females and our daughters. The idea is preposterous that would not tend to equalize the wages of the two there is any antagonism between their interests classes. and ours, or that we could wish to deny them any Mr. SMITH-Mr. Chairman, I do not see how; rights to which they are entitled. This is a mis- if there is an inequality,go to the Legislature; show chievous assumption, because it tends to produce that inequality, and if it is in the power of the the very state of affairs which is falsely assumed Legislature they will grant relief. They never to exist, and greatly to be deprecated. Again, have refused relief when it was demanded. sir, there seems to be a disposition on the part of Mr. M. H. LAWRENCE-I ask do they have the advocates of this measure, and also of those the same amount for their labor as males. who are opposed to colored suffrage, to link the Mr. SMITH- Whether they do, sir, or do not, two things together. This I hold to be illogical, I cannot see how it affects this question; but it is disingenuous. and injurious to the colored race. suggested by some gentlemen around me, and it It is illogical because the questions have no con- may be true, that they get as much for their sernection with each other; the distinction depends vices in proportion to the value as men. I do not upon sex and not upon color. We claim the pretend to say how that may be,but I do say that if right of suffrage for colored men because they are there is any injustice in this respect, that it may men, the same measure of political rights for be remedied under the present order of things. black as for white, under the principles of our There will be no disposition on the part of the government and the Declaration of Independence; husbands, and brothers, and sons, to deny to the but we object to women, both white and black, women their rights m this regard. participating in government because they are Mr. BICKFORD -Does the gentleman deem it women. The assumption is disingenuous on the right to remedy by act of the Legislature the part of its advocates, because they consciously wages for labor? He would seem to be underplace the claim on a false basis, and selfishly stood as saying that he deems it right for the make use of the prejudices against color to Legislature to pass an act fixing the wages of advance their own interests; and besides, it labor. It cannot be regulated in any such way, it invites partisanship into this field from which seems to me. it should be entirely excluded. It is un- Mr. SMITH - Mr. Chairman, I made that sugjust to the colored race because it embarrasses gestion in answer to the argument which is made the question of their enfranchisement with an- by the friends of this measure. They complain other foreign to it, and prejudicial to its success. that there is an inequality in wages, and say the It is said that there are many evils existing in ballot in the hands of woman would afford a society that would be corrected by giving woman remedy. Now I say, if the ballot is a remedy, it the ballot. It is claimed that woman at present must operate through legislation. It was upon does not enjoy the rights and privileges to which that assumption I made the suggestion to which she is entitled -that she has not the same privi- the gentleman takes exception. I do not underleges in schools, that she does not receive proper take to say whether or not the Legislature has compensation for her labor, and that in many power to regulate wages. If they have not, in other respects she is subject to disabilities and what way are you going to remedy that difficulty invidiuous distinctions. Now, sir, it may by the use of the ballot? be true that all these evils exist, but it is Mr. BICKFORD - The only way is for women simply a bald assumption that the ballot in to take hold and do a man's work. the hands of woman would cure them. It is The CHAIRMAN - The gentleman is out of a convenient mode of argument, to state the order. evils, and then quietly assume that female Mr. MILLER - I do not wish to raise the point suffrage is a remedy, but not very satisfac- of order here, but I think we are acting upon a tory or conclusive. I take issue upon this assump- resolution that limits the speeches to twenty tion, and deny that the proposed remedy would minutes. cure, or even mitigate the evils complained of. The CHAIRMAN - The Chair is of the opinOn the contrary, it would rather aggravate them, ion that no such resolution has passed. and introduce others of a more serious character. SEVERAL MEMBERS-Yes, there has. The change would tend to degrade woman rather The CHAIRMAN-Does the gentleman from than to elevate her. Now, the fact that we have Delaware [Mr. Miller], raise the point of order? given woman the right to hold property, that we Mr. MILLER-I do not, against the gentleman have changed our laws for her benefit; that she now speaking, but I object to his being interrupted, has had everything which she has demanded, and thus prolonging his speech. shows conclusively that there is no desire Mr. SMITH-I am about through, but I gave on the part of man to deprive woman of her time to allow questions to be asked, and suppose rights. Said an intelligent lady of this city not that is not to be taken out of my time. I long since, "I do not wish to possess this privi- was about to say, that these degraded women lege; because, if it is given to women I shall be of New York, and other cities, would compelled to go to the polls to vote, in order to invariably go to the polls, every one of them; and protect myself and society from the influence and could the refined and virtuous women of our vote of that abandoned class of women who infest cities be induced to mingle with them? If not, our cities." then the vicious and degraded element would be Mr. M. H. LAWRENCE-I would like to ask introduced into our politics, with no counteracting: f: 431 influence to control it. Now, sir, I deny that woman is not represented, and insist that she has more influence now upon the formation of our laws, than she would have if permitted a vote. It is a mistake to suppose that voting, or rather participating in government, consists merely in taking a piece of paper in your fingers and dropping it into the ballot-box. The person who influences the vote, who gives tone and character to society, does more toward controlling our elections, and fixing the character of our laws, than does the person who simply drops his ballot into the ballot-box. Mr. FOLGER —Does the gentleman contend that clergymen and teachers, who are also engaged in influencing minds and fixing the character of our laws, should for that reason not have a vote? Mr. SMITH -Certainly they form character, but their right to vote rests on another ground. The reason I would not deny clergymen and teachers that right, is because they are men. The other distinction does not come in there. Mr. FOLGER - You have put it on the distinction that women were forming character. Mr. SMITH- The gentleman misunderstood me. Mr. WALES -Does the gentleman propose to go backThe CHAIRMAN-The gentleman from Sullivan [Mr. Wales] is out of order. Mr. SMITH -The gentleman from Ontario [Mr. Folger], misunderstood me. I was answering the argument that they are not represented. Women claim that they are excluded from all participation in the government. I answer that they do, by the influence they exercise upon the voter, upon the youth committed to their care, their influence upon their brothers, fathers. husbands, and generally, by the influence they exercise upon society, exert a greater influence than they would if dragged down to the lower sphere of direct participation in politics, and permitted to drop their ballot into the box. The gentleman [Mr. Folger] suggests that we might upon the same principle deny the franchise to clergyman and teachers. I say not, because they belong to the other class, they are men. Mr. FOLGER-Does it not all come back to the distinction that one is a man and the other is a Woman? Is not that the sole distinction you make? Mr. SMITH - That is the distinction; and it is a distinction that is very difficult to get over. [Laughter]. Mr. FOLGER - It is not a distinction that I wish to get over. [Laughter.] Mr. SMITH - Until the gentleman can obliterate that distinction, and reverse the laws which God has made and impressed upon humanity, he never can get over that distinction. Women are.adapted to one sphere and man to another. Mr. KINNEY -May I ask if the distinction between the sexes creates any difference in their natural rights? Mr. SMITH - Not in natural rights. Mr. KINNEY —I ask if the right of selfgovernment is not a natural right? Mr. SMITH —I will answer the gentleman by saying that the right of voting is not a natural right. If it were, I would be in favor of giving it to women. I understand it to be a political right. You must draw a line somewhere. Would the gentleman allow every one to vote? I have attempted to show, briefly, where the line should be drawn. As I said in the outset, I did not intend to make an elaborate ar gument, but simply to present a few points. If there were time. I should be glad to elaborate them, and perhaps I might be able to elucidate the matter more clearly than I have been able to do in this hurried and desultory discussion. With these remarks I yield the floor. Mr. HAND - I expect to vote against the pending amendment. As the gentleman from Fulton [Mr. Smith] has said, I desire within my twenty minutes to give some of my reasons. But first, my reason is not because woman has not the natural capacity to judge of the fitness of the form of government under which she lives, and to which she is subjected; my objection is not that she has not all the natural rights that man has-the right of protection-that she has not every interest in society that man has. I do not regard her as an inferior. The question has very often come up in society, and has been discussed very learnedly among men, as to whether she is inferior to man. I think she is; and I think also that man is inferior to woman. Each sex has the qualities pertaining to that sex, and in the qualities pertaining to woman, she is vastly the superior of man, while in those qualities pertaining to man, -he is vastly her superior. Nature in creation, among the lower animals as well as with man has pointed out the governing power in man; and no created female except woman has ever attempted to assume that power. The male sex exercises that power throughout creation. What is the ballot? There is a great deal of sophistry connected with that question. It is asked ("will the mother neglect the solemn duties belonging to her just by going to the poll and dropping in the ballot?" Now any gentleman of sense who uses that argument knows it is sophistry. Mr. FOLGER-I would call the attention of the gentleman [Mr. Hand], to the queen bee as forming an exception to the rule he states, and ask him if he supposes that the male bee rules the hive? Mr. HAND-I do not know any thing about that- it is down so low in the scale of creation. I have never looked into their polity and cannot say what office the queen bee has. It is a matter of conjecture. But where the animals are large enough for us to watch them and understand their relations, there is no doubt. Even in the case of the domestic fowl, where there is, perhaps, twenty or thirty of one sex to one of the other, the females flee to the male for protection when danger comes around, and they then when under his protection never talk about being oppressed or assuming the rights that belong to the male. If the simple dropping of a ballot were all that is claimed for woman, that would be a very simple thing. A woman could perform that duty without neglecting her domestic duties, and without neglecting her children or husband. But when we object to her assuming political power be: cause it is incompatible with domestic duties, we 432 are met with a sneer, never with an argument. the democrats nurse and cherish for the purThey say "does not a mother's love force her to pose of excluding him from the franchise. It care for those to whom she is bound by such ties?" is nothing but a foolish and personal prejudice. Do you suppose she has, by simply becoming a But there is no such reason for the exclusion of voter, lost her womanhood? Has she ceased to be women. I wish to exclude woman by law from a mother? Now this is all sophistical. Merely exercising political power, and from exercising dropping the piece of paper in the box is not all all those duties and responsibilities belonging that is implied in voting; that is simply the ex- to the bustle of political life; because I esteem pression of power, but the ultimatum of power is her so highly; because my remembrances of her the sword-it is the shedding of blood, and there- are so tender; because all my relations with her in fore 1 very properly asked the question in my life leave in my memory the recollections of her seat, as an outsider was discussing this question, as one who is dear to me; because of the rememwhether women would assume that duty, whether brances of my mother, a mother, not as a political she would submit to the draft, whether she would power, but a mother who knew her place in the go to the tented field and risk her life in the time family circle, a mother who trained her children of her country's peril. The speaker saw the logic so carefully, who so patiently watched all their of the suggestion, and said she would. earliest expressions of unfolding character, who so carefully prepared the bed every night, ATs asnow flakes fallupown t a still warmly protecting us from the inclemency of As snow flakes fall upon the sod, Yet executes a freeman's will the season, who saw that we were fitted for As lightning does the will of God; the school-house and were found in our And from its power no bars nor locks places there, and watched us so tenderlyCan shield us-'Tis the ballot-box." who can forget such a mother; not sitting in the There is a mighty power in the ballot, and the ulti- judicial seat, not in the army fighting, with the matum of that power is in the sword, and all the arms of men; a mother not coarsely exercising intermediate steps are so many steps to power. The those duties that belong only to man, in his coarse woman, in dropping the ballot, assumes to exer- nature and organization, attending around the cise all the conditions belonging to government, polls as an electioneerer and canvasser for votes. to fill all the places of power. She has no right Not it; but a mother in the family circle, in the to drop that ballot, which is the expression of the place where we claim she belongs, where alone freeman's power, and gives her the right to vote she has the power and where she exerts such an except on the ground that these other relations influence over every one. Another memory of belong to her, that she has the right to sit on the that mother, although a quarter of a century has judgment-seat and on juries, and the right to hid her from my sight, comes back to me in my assume all the responsibilities and action belonging dreams, and she presses her hand once more upon to men. my head. Mr. KINNEY - I would like to ask the gentle- Mr. KINNEY - I would like to ask the genman a question. If he thinks the performance of tleman a question: if she would have been any military duties should necessarily go with the the less a mother to him if she had had the right right to vote? to vote? Mr. HAND - Yes. Mr. HAND - Yes, sir. Mr. KINNEY - Then why do you compel per- Mr. KINNEY - Show wherein. sons under the age of twenty-one to go to the Mr. HAND -I will in due time. I want tented field, and do not give them the right to to be understood, that is not the only thing vote; and yet you allow gentlemen to vote who that is included in this theory of womans' are over forty-five years of age, but do not compel rights. I say it is incompatible with the them to go to the field. nature of her sex to perform these duties. Mr. HAND - We have to fix the time of hold- I am going to treat this subject thoroughly-it ing political office and exercising political rights, may seem indelicate; it has been dragged in by some authority, and at some period of time, here and I cannot help it. Would it not be and we simply sometimes begin a little delightful suppose that Mrs. Such-a-one was a sooner by putting responsibility upon the judge, and the time has come for the court young men, and this, like all other arrange- to open; the witnesses are all present, the crier is ments of government, depends upon the great anxiously waiting to give the proper and usual interests of society. But some gentlemen want notice, lawyers are assembled from far and to know if there is not a foolish prejudice near with their cases, from perhaps twenty, against women? A prejudice against women! fifty or an hundred miles around, but no iudge Only think of it, when you can hardly keep the appears. What is the matter? Mrs. Judge is two sexes apart after they get to be fifteen years not quite well, and the doctor says she must old. Talk about a prejudice against women! be kept very quiet for the next three monthsl That is most delightfull I would like to find the [Laughter.] She is a pretty judge! She has man who ever felt prejudice against women, or who assumed to sit upon the bench. She is also to sit was ever actuated by it for one single hour of his upon juries-I suppose between these men-a life. But the reason why the negro is denied the lady, then a gentleman and then a lady: It is right of suffrage, is because of a foolish and mean possible they might forget the duties they were prejudice; we say he is as mean and disagreeable called upon to perform, in those essential sympaaid personally disgusting as a skunk and there- thies that a great many men feel (unless they for we do not want him in our midst. That is are prejudiced against women) when they oome feeg against him; that is the feeling that into too close contiguity. But there they sit 433 trying a case. In the midst of a case that has old as history, although most of the persons been going on perhaps a week or ten days who advocate woman suffrage, sneer at the Bible. consecutively -suddenly one of the jurors is We had sneers at it here the other night, from absent; Mrs. Such-a-one is not there. Cer- the place now occupied by the honorable Chairtain causes which occur to her sex occasionally man. It was said that the rule "obey the King," have brought on a fit of hysteria, and she is and "servants obey you masters," was outlawed not able to leave her bed. I do not wish to to-day and outgrown, and in tine we should outpursue this subject further, but I will leave your grow the law U wives obey your husbands." The imaginations to follow it out through all the law, "obey the King," is just as binding as it cases that may occur. I claim that these duties ever was. St. Paul elaborates that, and makes it and responsibilities that belong to political govern- plainer; it varies the terms, whether Kings or ment, are fit for and belong to man only, and governors-it is obedience to the powers that be. woman's sexual peculiarities unfit her to per- ' Servants obey your masters." while there were form them? I make that point. It is a substan- masters, was perfectly legitimate. If slavery tive point, and one which no argument can get existed to-day I would say to a discontented negro, over. " while you are a slave, and with this condition Mr. KINNEY - I would like- of bondage upon you, you should yield obedience Mr. HALE- I rise to a point of order. We to your master, it is better for you and for your have passed a rule to limit gentlemen in debate to master." This doctrine of " wives obey your twenty minutes, and I protest against this coutin- husbands" is not and never will be outued interruption; its operation is to entirely de- lawed. It is according to the institution of marfeat the operation of the rule, and the Chair can- riage as it was first established on the threshold not tell when a gentlemen has occupied his twenty of creation. God found it was not good for man minutes. to be alone, and he said I will make a help-meet The CHAIRMAN-The point of order is per. for him. As long as woman holds that relation as fectly proper as a matter of taste. The Chair a help-meet for man, all the blessings of married life, will endeavor to make the time of the interruption to herself, to her husband, and to her children, will by the clock, so the gentleman who has the floor flow out from that relation. It is only in a vicious will have his proper time. state of society that we have all these evils, or at Mr. MERRITT-I think it would be well to least nine-tenths of all the evils of which women insist, that when a gentleman permits himself to complain. They come from that state of society be interrupted in this way, it should be taken out which places women above labor, above care, of his time. above looking for anything except to be dressed Mr. HAND - I don't wish to be discourteous up like a doll for every man to look at, and every to gentlemen who wish to propose questions, and woman, too, who may happen to come into her if it is not to be counted in my time I am per- parlor, or associate with her at the fashionable fectly willing to reply to questions. My principal party. It is that vicious state of society which objection to their assuming this responsibility takes away from women who do not act in their and going to the ballot-box and giving expression legitimate sphere all the blessings of married life. to authority, is, it is the commencement of power, Mr. MILLER-I must insist, Mr. Chairman, the ultimatum of which is the tented field and the upon the enforcement of the rule, without any sword. There is where the law and there is disrespect to the gentleman who is speaking. where the government claims the fulfillment of The CHAIRMAN -The Chair would inform the behest; there is where she authoritatively the gentleman from Delaware [Mr. Miller] that, finishes up the work of government. excluding interruptions, the gentleman from Mr. KINNEY -Will the gentleman allow me Broome [Mr. Hand] has not yet spoken his full to ask him another question? What becomes of time. the court in case the judge himself becomes sick? Mr. MILLER-I think it is a mistake, that the Mr. HAND - Those cases do not occur with interruptions are not to be taken out of the gentlemen one time where they do a thousand times man's timewith the other sex. Mr. HAND -That is delightful for gentlemen Mr. KINNEY- I have known judges to be to make speeches here and have it taken out of sick for months at a time. my timeMr. HAND —I never knew such a case as I Mr. BARTO —I move, sir, that the gentleman supposed to occur with a man. [Laughter.] The from Broome [Mr. Hand] be allowed to proceed. great interests involved in this case demand, The question was put on the motion of Mr. although it may seem indelicate, that I should Barto, and it was declared to be carried. search this thing thoroughly, and I intend to do it. Mr. HAND - In the beginning God saw it was I respect the ladies very highly. I love them. I not good for man to be alone and God said he love to look upon the sweet face of a virtuous would make a help-meet for him, and then the woman. I love to see her standing at her place Bible goes on to tell how He made her. And Adam in the family circle, with a new, clean gingham when he saw this woman felt very much as I do dress on, baking warm biscuits for tea. [Laughter.] when I see a beautiful woman. He looked at her It is the most delightful sight I ever looked upon and said, " she is bone of my bone and flesh of in my life. [Renewed laughter.] Again, sir, the na- my flesh." Let us look at the conditions of marture of the marriage relation, and the sacred obli- ried life. Whenever these conditions are carried out gations of that relati, are such, in my in their purity, it has resulted only in blessings. opinion, as to preclude women from the right of The desire of the woman shall be to her husband. suffrage. Sir, the laws of thliaL rl:latiotr are that is she shall look up'to him as the 55 434 great source, of her happiness, and he shall me in a matter of taste. I may not rule over her. There is the condition of marriage, dress as I choose. I am saying this to illustrate as it was organized as a sacred institution. I how the rule operates upon us. On the Sabbath, know I shall be met with sneers from some gen- the law provides that any unusual noise shall be tlemen and some ladies who sneer at the Scrip- restrained, and my business must be closed if it be tures, and say it is all old-fogyism. But the mar- noisy, so that men may go to the sanctuary and riage relation was instituted in this way, and with worship God in quiet. We do not chafe at this, these conditions it has come down to us. It was and we do not complain of it. Why not? Because so adopted by our New England fathers; and the Albany gives us back more than she takes from us. object of theze conditions is to preserve the purity, I am safe in my person and in my property, and I honor and independence of the sex, and to work have the liberty to worship God according to the diceffectively the machinery by which men can be tates of my conscience quietly, and I am protected. raised and educated for citizenship and fitted for the So with the wife, the husband rules over her, and duties of manhood. Our New England fathers prob- with this rule she receives the protection that beably lived up to this strict rule of the marriage re- longs to the marriage relation, and all those interlation, as it was originally instituted, as closely as ests dear to her; the protection of the honor of any people have ever done in the world. And if lher children and her security while rearing them. a better race has ever come up from any She could not have it but for manhood-womantraining than has come from those New England hood is protected, and she gets back more than fathers, I have yet to read its history. All the she yields, in yielding to this rule of the buselements of character that ennoble our race, all band. The city of Albany has no special tenderthe strength of character, all its purity and every ness towards us, it is simply an inflexible rule quality that is desirable in man, we find in which is over us all alike; but the hustlie descendants of that race. and yet they band and wife are bound together by a tie have sometimes been ridiculed because they so so tender, and this rule sits so lightly on the closely followed the letter of the scripture. In women, it is no burden and the women do not the marriage relation they followed it particularly feel it so, at least they never did feel it so until closely. The husband may be a tyrant, but, if these perambulating women went about the properly carried out, the institution will be a country telling them how much they were abused. blessing to the woman. Any institution is sub- Mr. BARTO-I understood the gentleman to ject to abuses whenever you allow one person to state, in the opening of his speech, that he was rule over another or over humanity. You will superior to any women that ever lived. readily perceive that every institution must be Mr. HAND-Oh no, no, you misunderstood me subject to rules, and there is no other way in and if I am put down so I wish to have it changed. which to govern humanity. We all have to sub- Mr. KtNNEY-I think the gentleman stated mit to order. They rule us here in the city of substantially that-I so understood him. Albany. When we walk the streets we SEVERAL MEMBERS- Oh, no. are subject to the police regulations. We Mr. HAND-Oh, no; the gentleman is mismeet a man with a star on his breast, and in a taken. I am so much interrupted that I am manner lie is ruler over us. There is no such thrown off the course of my argument. I was thing as having a civil organization without having going on to say, sir, that the peculiar characterrules. We are not even allowed to deliberate in istics of woman fit her for her place. The one this chamber without having a chairman who, for who made woman made also the marriage relathe time being, rules over us. And do we think tion, and He knew what He was constructing. It these features are severe upon us? Do we mur- is exactly the place for her; she is gentle, mur because a chairman rules over us? You kind, affectionate, patient and sympathizing. cannot collect a dozen persons at a neighbor- she understands children, she loves them with hood meeting without electing a chairman. It is a love of which no father ean have any concepnecessary for the order and arrangement of the tion. Oh I how often has the mother of every one of meeting. This rule is limited, to be sure, accord- us shielded us when the sternness of the father has ing to the necessities of the case. Three or four seemed to eventuate in tyranny towards us; how hundred years ago, had I lived,I could pass through often has the unbidden tear dropped for us; althe county of Albany and shoot game at my pleas- though she did not interfere by words, yet she ure, and could take fish in her streams without would show where her heart was, and what was hindrance. But now, sir, on this ground we find the nature of her sympathy. That is the office of a magnificent city. I am met everywhere woman-kindly, considerately, patiently and laboby the law. I am told that I cannot shoot riously to carry out the sweet influences of home, a bird out of season, even on my own and to produce an influence on her children, farm, and in my own woods I cannot shoot a as long as those children live; an influence that woodcock to-day, because the laws forbid it, on never dies, though everything else may pass away. the ground that the public interest requires it A man may be exposed to temptation, and may should not be done. Is this rule oppression? If fall into sin, but whatever his condition in I walk through the streets of Albany, or ride in life, the memory of that mother, watching over my carriage, the law says I must turn to the his childhood slumbers comes back to him, with its right, and I must obey this rule. If I should influence and power, long after the man presume to put on my wife's dress and take a hlas entered into the relations of citizenship. walk through the city, I should be arrested Not only is the influen of the mother upon the by a policemen, because I am disobeying child to be affected, by thus unsexing woman, tlhe. rule. The *law presumes to control and taking her out of the family circle and making 435 her mingle in the coarser affairs of life, sitting in the jury box, upon the bench, and going into the battle-field, but it also interferes with the influence she exerts upon her husband himself. We were told by the gentleman who delivered that beautiful poem [Mr. Curtis], the melody of which still rings in my ears-that poem so rich in its cadences-that the power of women in our late national struggle was at least equal to that of man, which remark I will consider in due time. I had noticed for a number of days that in the corner around that gentleman's seat, there was a great fluttering of silks, laces and feathers, and it rather surprised me that they should all be found around there, to the cruel neglect of the more substantial personages in and about the regions of "Sleepy Hollow." But at length the whole thing was revealed, when that poem was delivered here. I have no doubt but that delightful poem will be bound in green and gold, and will be found on the center-tables of all his fair clients and will be regarded by this age. and by coming ages, as one of the most magnificent works of fiction of the day. There is another quality about the organization of the marriage relation: "Therefore the twain shall be one flesh." The great beauty and power and usefulness of the marriage relation consists in its oneness; it is a circle where there is but one interest. We go out into the world and meet with competition; hard-hearted men have designs upon us; there are competitors to us everywhere. There is nobody we can trust, we are fearfully suspicious of everybody in this hurly-burly of life; but there is a circle in which there is but one interest; established by the marriage relation. In that family circle, the husband with all his cares and expectations can come and pour into the willing ear of his partner everything that concerns him. If he have political aspirations he can confide them to her; if he hope to make successful operations in a pecuniary point of view, he can come there and confide them to her and she sympathizes with him. He does not find there a competitor, one who has her money and who keeps her property by itself, who demands from him pay for her labor, and if she sews a button on his coat, charges him three cents for it. [Laughter.] He does not come there and find a person who has property, and he has property, and they have separate interests, and make entries every night one against the other, and who can sue and be sued, one by the other. But where there is the pure marriage relation then the wife has the same interest with the husband; there is the beauty of it and its power over the husband and the children. There is no contention there, it is a place of peace. It is the only part of Paradise that has survived the fall. If lie has political aspirations, if he is a candidate for office, ho can give all the details of his preparations i,,, his wife, she sympathizes with him, and she goes about among her neighbors and finds out what the public opinion may be in a manner that he could not do; for it is one of their peculiarities that they know what is going on, and keep an account of the doings outside, although they do live in the house. She is a great help to him, in the matter of ascertaining public opinion -she is not a competitor, mind you! She is not a candidate for the same office herself; she does not belong to another party from him, and every word that he whispers to her go and convey it to the leaders of her own party. Do you not see how these two interests would break up the unity of that family relation, and break up all those sympathizing feelings and all that kindliness and everything pertaining to that relation, and which now gives it its power? If gentlemen cannot see that, I see it very clearly. The great power of this family relation consists in its unity, and the relations existing between its members; in its evenness of purpose and oneness of interest, making it an impossibility for two interests to exist. But the moment this idea of separate interests comes to the domestic hearth, its influences are destroyed. I know it is claimed that a great deal has been dcne for woman within the last twenty years. I think not. I think that woman has been deteriorating ever since this question of their rights has been agitated. The statistics brought forward by my 'friend from Columbia [Mr. Gould], show that the number of female criminals has very much increased; that the numbers in all our jails have been largely increased-within the last twenty years, since this thing has been agitated. I pledge myself, that if you pursue this investigation, you will find that the applications for divorces have increased ten-fold within the last twenty years. You have loosened the bonds of matrimonial life and thrown all this family influence away; you have broken up the family and made it to consist of two interests; and when you get them sufficiently divided, it will be like any other partnership, to be entered into and dissolved at pleasure; andthen what will become of all our family relations? Who will then bring up the children, under all those precious influences of home, until they come up to manhood? You will have thrown two interests into the family, the man one and the woman the other, with all their interests divided one from the other, they will not have a single bond of unity, not a single thing in common, not a single matter upon which they can sympathize. I dwell upon these things, to show you that the whole marriage relation is destroyed and sacrificed and the marriage tie will be destroyed forever. It will be simply a partnership. The man and woman will live together as long as it will suit their convenience; and then when the woman charges a little more for her labor than he likes, he says: I can go down street and get another woman who will work cheaper; and so he will go and take in the other woman. That is precisely the practical working of the thing. Mr. M. I. TOWNSEND -Will the gentleman give way for one moment. Mr. HAND -Certainly, if I do not lose my right to the floor. Mr. V. I. TOWNSEND -- I move that the committee do now rise, report progress and ask leave to sit again. The question was put on the motion of Mr. M. I. Townsend, and it was declared carried. Whereupon the committee rose, and the President pro tern. resumed the chair in Convention. Mr. ALVORD, from the Committee of the 436 Whole, reported that the committee had had under consideration the report of the Committee on the Right of Suffrage and the Qualifications to Hold Office, had made some progress therein, but not having gone through therewith, had instructed their chairman to report that fact to the Convention, and to ask leave to sit again. The question was put upon granting leave to sit again, and it was declared carried. Mr. BELL moved that the Convention do now adjourn. Which was lost. Mr. VAN CAMPEN -I move that the Convention take a recess until half-past seven o'clock this evening. The question was put on tile motion of Mr. Van Campen, and it was declared carried. So the Convention took a recess until half-past seven. - EVENING SESSION. The Convention re-assembled at half-past seven o'clock. Mr. KINNEY asked leave of absence for himself for two days. There being no objection thereto, leave was granted. Mr. GOULD asked leave of absence for Mr. Huntington until Thursday next. There being no objection thereto, leave was granted. Mr. IMERRITT asked leave of absence for Mr. L. W. Russell, until Saturday evening, on account of sickness in his family. There being no objection, leave of absence was granted. Mr. GOULD asked leave of absence for Mr. Cochran, until Wednesday morning. Mr. BICKFORD - I shall object, Mr. President, to the granting of leave of absence, unless some reasons are given. Mr. GOULD -The reason why I ask for leave of absence for Mr. Cochran is that he has not been absent from the Convention a day since our session commenced, and it is absolutely necessary for the transaction of some private business that he should be absent until Wednesday morning. The objection being withdrawn, leave of absence was granted. The Convention resolved itself into Committee of the Whole on the report of the Committee on the Right of Suffrage and Qualifications to Hold Office; Mr. ALVORD, of Onondaga. in the chair. The CHAIR announced the pending question to be on the amendment of Mr. Curtis to the amendment offered by Mr. C. C. Dwight to the report of the Committee. The CHAIRMAN-The gentleman from Broome [Mr. Hand] is entitled to the floor, but as he is not present, what is the further pleasure of the commit tee? Mr. BICKFORD - The question of suffrage for the women of the State is regarded by soie in a ludicrous ligllt, it seeming to them too absurd to be seriously entertained. I look upon it as a serious question. It is seriously proposed, and has been gravely and ably advocated in this Convention. It is advocated elsewhere with great persistence, to say the least. It must be met in some way; and, in my opinion, it should be met, not by ridicule, but by fair and legitimate argument. And as I am opposed to female suffrage, both on principle and for reasons of expediency, I would hope that the arguments against it might be of such force, and so convincing, as to set the question at rest. not only now but for all the future. And I purpose, according to my limited ability, to meet the question in the manner I have suggested. For one, Mr. Chairman, I believe in the christian religion. I believe that the Bible contains the word of God. I hope this avowal will not be considered out of place in a dignified Convention of the people of this State. In that apostolic doctrine which is pre-eminently the standard of the christian faith. and which furnishes the principles by which the christian should order his life, I find duties enjoined for persons in all circumstances and relations. I find that the marriage relation, as instituted by the Creator himself in the garden of Eden, is recognized and enforced by the Redeemer of mankind and by his apostles. That a man should leave father and mother and cleave to his wife (by which I understand that he should himself become the head of a family) and that the twain should be one flesh, having united and identical intersets, is a part of the christian religion, though in force from the beginning of the race. While children are enjoined to obey their parents,the husband is expressly declared to be the "head of the wife " and the wife is expressly required to obey and reverence her husband. To every reflecting mind it is apparent that there must be subordination in the family, and that one or the other of the parents must be at its head. There are cases where the wife rules the husband, but every man who is thus ruled is an object of just contempt, and the wife who thus rules is justly regarded as an odious anomaly. The teachings of nature and of revelation are in harmony on this point. Adam was first formed, then Eve as a suitable help. While Adam took the lead in their joint affairs, the law of God was kept, and the pair maintained their primeval innocence and happiness. But when Eve took the lead, then came disobedience sin, death and ruin. "Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression." It has pained me to hear this cause of female suffrage advocated on principles hostile to the word of God. A talented lady, speaking in behalf of the cause sle has so much at heart, saw fit to say in this hall, not long since, in substance, that as we, in this day, had got the better of "servants obey your masters," so she hoped we might soon get the better of "wives obey your husbands." When we do get the better of that salutary commandment, we shall probably, also, get the better of another commandment, which says, "-husbands, love your wives." The abrogation of the last will quite likely follow the disregard of the first. It is as much the duty of servants to obey their masters now as it ever was. There is no living in civilized society, unless servants are taught to obey their masters, and feel it their duty to do so. But that a servant is necessarily a slave I deny. So I deny that it makes a wife a slave to obey her husband. 437 When the husband loves his wife, as he is likely to do if she behaves herself amiably in the spirit, in which Sarall obeyed her lord, her obedience is not servitude. It becomes a cheerful and ready compliance with what is for the mutual honor and benefit of both husband and wife. At present it may be convenient to ignore the commands, servants obey your masters," and "wives obey your husbands." How soon it may be convenient to do away '"children obey your parents" and "husbands love your wives," I do not know. But I feel warranted in saying that the cause which cannot be advocated without putting aside the word of God is a cause which should not commend itself to christian men and women. I sincerely believe that to confer the elective franchise on all the women of the State, will sap the very foundations of civil society, and cause more evil than even our republican institutions have caused good, much as I value them. We might admit a few, for instance, such unmarried women and widows as are taxed to any considerable extent. But where there is no property qualification and the suffrage is nearly universal, except as to those deemed too young, the evils that would ensue are palpable and appalling. The unerring instinct of both sexes is against it, reason is against it. and the experience of mankind is against it. The advocates of female suffrage rely much upon the statement in the Declaration of Independence. that "governments derive all their just powers from the consent of the governed." But this really affords them no aid. The fathers, in adopting the declaration, had no reference to the question of suffrage whatever. "The governed," according to their intent and meaning, were governed States, nationalities, countries, colonies or provinces, not individuals. Their point was, that the king of Great Britain had no longer a right to rule iu these colonies, because the colonies no longer consented to be governed by him. They were justifying their action in changing their form of government and forsaking their former allegiance to the British crown. Hence they recounted the tyrannous acts of their former king, and formally withdrew the assent of the colonies they represented to be any longer under his government. But they said not a word in the declaration about the proper distribution of political power among the people - not a word as to the proper persons to be intrusted with the elective franchise. But they and their contemporaries did act on the question of the franchise, and how? They were very far, indead, from making it universal. In general they confided it only to adult, property-holding male citizens. In general it was denied to females, to minors, to colored men, to men destitute of property, and to aliens. If a State contained say 400,000 inhabitants, and if of these twenty thousand enjoyed the elective franclise, and eleven of the twenty thousand united in the choice of rulers, or in the form of the government, they considered their condition as to the "consent of the governed" as amply fulfilled. It was the consent of the governed state, given by a maiority of its ruling class, that they were after, and were talking about. It was the publie will, expressed according to the usual forms, and by the persons empowered to express that will, that satisfied all their conditions. The advocates of female suffrage. therefore, derive no real aid fiom the Declaration of Independence. It is a 'alse application of the statement, a total misapprehension of its real import, which makes it give any seeming support to their claim. They also quote the often expressed sentiment of our Revolutionary fathers, that "taxation without representation is tyranny," and their argument is this: The women are not represented because they do not vote; but they are taxed; and, therefore, they say, a government which does not allow them to vote is a tyrannous one. and consequently wrongful. But neither in this matter had the fathers any reference to the question of suffrage. Their point waS, that any province, district, colony or State not represented in the British Parliament could not be rightfully taxed by the Parliament. The colonies, said they, are not thus represented, and, therefore, for the British Parliament to tax them is tyranny. They illustrated their idea by a picture, in which John Bull, looking at his sovereign, King George, and pointing at the same time to a Yankee representing the colonies, says: " I gave you that man's money for my use." And to this the Yankee replies, "I'll not be robbed." They called it robbery for the British Parliament to give to the king, for the use of Englishmen, the money of the colonists who had no voice whatever in Parliament. But they did not consider it tyranny for Parliament to lay a tax on Yorkshire or on the city of London, though none of the women voted in either place, and not a fifth of the adult men. These places, as places. were represented, and so were the people who inhabited them, according to the meaning of the fathers, although the voting portion of the population was very small. Reference is made by the advocates of female suffrage to female rulers, particularly to Queen Victoria and to Queen Elizabeth. There have been four female sovereigns who have ruled England - Mary, Elizabeth, Anne and Victoria. Mary's reign was chiefly distinguished by a cruel religious persecution, which gave her the wellearned title of "Bloody Mary." Elizabeth was a woman of vigorous mind, which enabled her to rule with great success, though she was much aided by the many wise and virtuous statesmen who flourished in her court. Nevertheless she was a most merciless, capricious and unjust tyrant. Witness her conduct towards her cousin, the Queen of Scots. Is Elizabeth's conduct on that occasion calculated to exhibit in a favorable light her sense of justice, her hospitality, or her mercy? Besides being unjust and unmerciful as a sovereign, she was odious as a woman, as incorrigible old maids intrusted with property and power generally are. [Laughter.] Queen Anne's reign was distinguished by brilliant national success. Yet she was a stupid, self-willed and bigoted woman. The great Duke of Marlborough, who ruled the weak-minded queen through his wife, who had a strange control over her, threw a halo of resplendent glory over her reign; for it was he who, combining his efforts with wise states. men on the continent, at length humbled the pride of Louis XIV. Victoria, the present queen, is an amiable and excellent woman. But 438 it has never been claimed that she was a to allow the gentleman [Mr. Bickford] to have woman of superior intellect or capacity. Her the remainder of his speech printed? influence on public affairs is almost nothing. The CHAIRMAN-The Chair is of the opinion Great Britain is really governed, as everybody that no such rule obtains in the Convention. knows, by the talented statesmen who, by their Mr. E. BROOKS-I suppose, Mr. Chairman, combinations, are able to command a majority in that if I have the floor, I can have the privilege the House of Commons. If the Queen were of according a portion of my twenty minutes to totally insane and imbecile, as was her grand- the gentleman from Jefferson [Mr.'Bickford]? father in the latter years of his life, the govern- The CHAIRMAN-Tlhe Chair is of the opinion ment of her kingdom would proceed very much that the gentleman cannot occupy his time except as it does now. There have been other female by his own remarks, and that lie cannot transfer sovereigns, and some of them, as Smiramis and his rights to another. Catherine II, of great administrative talent. But Mr. SPENCER —I desire, for a few moments, these women were a scandal to their sex, and to address the committee on the subject now betyrants of the most odious description. Spain has fore itnow a reigning queen. I believe it is not claimed Mr. HAND - I would like to ask the Chair that her reign reflects any honor upon herself or whether I can make a second speech on this on her country. Certainly it is about as bad as subject. any possible reign for her people. It is contem- The CHAIRMAN - The Chair is of the opinion plated by the advocates of female suffrage, that if that the gentleman [Mr. Hand] cannot, under the women vote, they are to hold office and sit on rule. juries. They will aspire also to the bench of Mr. HAND - Can I not by unanimous consent? justice. And in this view it becomes proper to The CHAIRMAN- If there is unanimous coninquire whether women are likely to be good sent given, and no other gentleman desires to legislators, judges and jurymen. I will not speak speak. The gentleman from Steuben [Mr. Spenof their mingling indiscriminately with men in the cer], has the floor. halls of legislation; nor of six married ladies being Mr. SPENQER-I am not among the number shut up as jurors "in some private and convenient of those, sir, who believe that this subject is by place," with six men who are not their husbands, any means yet exhausted, and I have observed and of the constable's key being turned on then with great pleasure, that during the more recent until they shall be able to agree. [Laughter]. parts of the discussion upon this subject, there At this point in the remarks of Mr. Bickford, has evidently been given to it a much greater the gavel fell, twenty minutes having expired. degree of study, and the opinions of gentlemen Mr. SILVESTER -I hope that unanimous have been expressed with a far greater degree of oonsent will be given for the gentleman [Mr. Bick- care than appeared to have been bestowed durford] to finish his remarks. ing the earlier part of the discussion. I do The CHAIRMAN-The Chair does not see not know, indeed, that I shall be able how it can contravene a rule of the Convention. myself to submit to the committee any Mr. E. BROOKS- I understand that the same new idea upon the subject, but it is perhaps rule prevails in the Committee of the Whole,, possible that I may present my ideas in such a that prevails in the Convention. light as shall enable some members of the comrnThe CHAIRMAN - The Chair so understands mittee to come to a more just conclusion, if these it. ideas shall receive a due consideration. This subMr. E. BROOKS-I suppose that the rule ject, sir, is one of the most important that can might be extended in committee by unanimous con- i come before the Convention, if not the most imsent. portant. The question of suffrage is one which The CHAIRMAN - The Chair is not of that lies at the very foundation of the government, and, opinion. The rule can only be extended by au- as that shall be determined, may depend the perthority of the Convention. mancy and the stability of the government Mr. BICKFORD - May I not proceed with my of this State during a long period of time, if not remarks, by unanimous consent of the committee? during all time, and may depend also the happiness The CHAIRMAN -If there is no other gentle- of those whose fortune it may be to live under it. man that desires to speak, the Chair is of the opin- There have been several theories advanced here ion that the gentleman may proceed by unani- as to the true ground upon which suffrage may be mous consent. exercised. Among these it has been alleged, in Mr. FOLGER-I do not object to the gentle- the first place, that the right of suffrage is a man from Jefferson proceeding, provided it would natural right which belongs inherently to not form a precedent for every gentleman to over- every person under all circumstances. Anstep the limits of the time fixed. other theory is that although it may not Mr. HAND - I suppose that the ruling will not be among the inherent natural rights which interfere with my continuing my remarks. attach to a person as an existent being, it The CHAIRMAN-The gentleman from Broome nevertheless attaches to every person when he [Mr. Hand] having given way for a recess, and becomes a member of civil society, and that, as a not being here on the re-assembling of the Con- member of civil society, he has the right, indevention, and when it again went into the Comn- pendently of any power which may be conferred mittee of the Whole, the Chair holds that the upon him, to vote. There is another theory still: same rule must apply to that gentleman as to that civil society, when organized, has the power others. arbitrarily to confer upon any member of the Mr. KINNEY-Will it be in order to move State, the right to the exercise of suffrage, or to 439 withhold the same at pleasure. Now, sir, among these conflicting views, all of which have been advanced here, which is the true and correct one? And perhaps it may be said that it is neither, but that the true ground and theory upon which the right of suffrage may be exercised lies in some medium between all three of these. And to determine what is the true rule and true principle upon which suffrage should be exercised, or upon which the right of it should be conferred, it is perhaps proper to consider for a moment the nature of the government under which we live. Sir, it is a representative government. It is not a democracy where the people in their original right exercise the power of making the laws and of administering the government. Neither is its character such that the people delegate to mere agents and mere servants the power of making the laws; but the true principle of the government is that the people confer upon certain instruments the power to exercise the functions of government precisely in the same manner as the absolute monarchies of the old world, and these instruments, whenever they are selected, perform the functions of the government with an absolute power, as any other government; but the instruments who are to exercise the supreme power of the State are selected from time to time, and the period of their exercise of power is limited, under our form of government, and, therefore, it is that, from time to time, the electors of the State, those who may be invested with that power. select from among their number those who shall, during specified periods, perform all the functions of government. Now, then, the question is upon what members of the political community is it proper, is it right, is it just to confer this power? And by what rule is it to be conferred? One gentleman, to-day, has undertaken to say that during the whole of this discussion no rule and no principle has been laid down or defined by which it may be determined who ought and who ought not to exercise this power. I listened in vain during the whole of his argument upon that question to see whether lie himself would lay down any rule or any principle to which we could refer in determining upon whom the right of suffrage should be conferred, and who should be deprived of that right. I listened also with great care to another gentleman who spoke on the same subject, and apparently with the same view, but I did not learn from him any such unbending rule, or any rule to which we could refer for the determination of this question. Now, sir, upon whom should tlhii right be conferred? Upon those and those only whose exercise of the power will tend to promote the great end and the great object of government, and that is the security of person and property and the security of every person in the pursuit and enjoyment of happiness. And how shall we determine who these persons are, for that is the real question before the committee. How shall we determine who are fitted and who are not for the exercise of this great privilege? And let me here say that to exercise the functions of government, requires a degree of capacity; that it requires a degree of intelligence; that it requires a degree of experience which is not required in the person who merely exercises the elective franchise. Let me say again, that the exercise of the right of suffrage requires a far less degree of intelligence, a far less degree of experience, a far less degree, if you please, of a knowledge of our political institutions than the exercise of the functions of government; that it requires different qualities; that it requires a less degree of intelligence and a less degree of understanding to enable a person to determine who is the proper person to exercise the functions of government, than.to exercise the function of government itself. Now, sir, looking upon the various classes who are proposed for the exercise of the right of suffrage, how many or how few of them, indeed, have the intelligence and the capacity, if you please, to select from among themselves those who are to exercise the functions of government. It may be said that there are almost none, or if any, they are so few, that they constitute no appreciable number of the members of the State. Now there have been several classes proposed here for disfranchisement, of those who are not supposed to be fitted for the exercise of that duty and of that privilege. Among these, first, are idiots, lunatics and persons of unsound mind, and it will be apparent at the very statement of the question, that these are not fitted for the exercise of suffrage; that they do not possess the necessary qualifications of mind or intelligence. Now, not only should the elector possess intelligence, but lie should be possessed of the will to exercise his right, properly to perform his duty suitably. I find there is another class which it is proposed to exclude from this right, and that class is composed of criminals, persons who are guilty of offenses against the laws, and here again, the safety of the State requires that those who are ill disposed toward it, who do not yield obedience to the laws, should have no part in the framing or making of those laws. Again, it has been proposed to disfranchise another class on account of its color. The question here is, does this class as a class possess the necessary intelligence to exercise suitably the duty of suffrage, and do they possess the will to exercise that privilege properly. No one has had the boldness to assert upon this floor that they did not possess these requisites. Now, it was stated by the gentleman [Mr. Murphy] who moved the amendment to the report of the committee upon this subject that as a matter of opinion he did not think the admission of this class, excluded by the present Constitution, would add any strength to the government ot the State. Why, sir, what constitutes the strength of a State? What is essential to the permanency of the government? What is it that makes it what it is? It is the affection and the love of its constituents; and whence comes this love and affection? It arises from the fact that those who constitute the State have a share, or have a right at some time to have a share in the administration of its government, and in the same degree that any class of the citizens of equal number adds strength to the State, the black citizen of the State may add to its strength, and to its perma 440 nency. Now, sir, these are the principal classes evening. No person is more desirous than I whose case has been under discussion before am that every right shall be accorded to woman this committee, and the exercise of suffrage by all which her position entitles her to claim, and these classes may be referred to this rule that I which it is necessary for her protection that have laid down. In the first place, the right of she should possess. I yield to no individual suffrage should be exercised by those whose exer- in sincerity and determination of purpose to cise of it will contribute to the great ends and extend to her every courtesy and privilege which aims of government; that it is to be exercised by the most refined and even the most extremely those have the intelligence in the first place, and chivalric gallantry can demand. But I have not the will in the second place to perform that been convinced by the arguments which have been duty properly. Now, in regard to most others advanced in the pamphlets which have been cirthan the classes I have mentioned, it is culated among the members of the Convention by impossible to define by any practical rule or upon the friends of female suffrage, that the conferring any practical principle any distinction in the de- of the elective franchise is necessary for her progrees of intelligence which may be required for tection, is required for the enforcement of any of the exercise of suffrage, or any degree of good her rights, or will add to the dignity of the posidisposition towards the government; therefore tion which she now occupies. Neither have the it is that, I say, that all members of the commu- views which I entertain in respect to this subject nty, with the exceptions I have named, may, at been altered by the able, eloquent and elegant some time, become possessed of this right. Per- address of the gentleman from Richmond [Mr. haps it will be said, and I doubt not that it will, Curtis]. Probably there is no member of this the rule which I have laid down will admit to the body who has not, in the past, derived delight right of suffrage women, and indeed, sir, they do from perusing the fascinating, instructive and fincome within the principles that I have mentioned, ished productions of that gentleman, or been except, perhaps, that their exercise of the right charmed with his public addresses in the litof suffrage may not, as I have said in regard to erary lecture-room, or before political assemother classes, necessarily contribute any to the blies. And none of us can have failed to feel strength of the State. But I am opposed to the influence of his polished, elaborate, clasthe amendment which has been introduced in that sic and eloquent remarks upon the subject now regard,and for this reason,that during the whole ex- under discussion. And though, since then, day istonce of the human race, it has never been known has faded into twilight, though the shades of that women have been admitted to this right, and evening have once and again come and departed, it has never been known, and it is not known though dawn has repeatedly brightened into pernow, that they as a class have to any considerable feet day, I still linger entranced by the spell of extent asked to be admitted to this privilege; and his fascinating and bewitching oratory. But yet it has never been known, nor is it known now, I am constrained to differ from him in many of that the other sex, in any considerable numbers, the views which he has expressed, and to oppose have required that they be admitted to this privi- the amendment which he has introduced, and has lege, and, therefore, it seems to me at this time to so ably advocated. It is not my intention howbe inexpedient to extend the right of the elective ever to attempt any formal refutation of the argufranclise to them. And here I may be allowed to ment adduced by him, but simply to state very protest against any inference which is attempted briefly some of the suggestions which have occurto be drawn from the examples of some illustrious red to me in reflecting upon this subject. And in women of the world who have exercised political considering "an innovation which," in the language power wisely and well, and to call the attention of of the report of the committee, is " so revolutionary the committee to examples of another character, as and sweeping, so openly at war with a distribution has been done to some extent by the gentleman of duties and functions between the sexes as venfrom Jefferson [Mr. Bickford], where the political erable and pervading as government itself and power when exercised by women was of the most involving transformations so radical in social and disastrous character- domestic life," I propose to refer to the Bible At this point the gavel fell, the twenty min- as authority and my first objection is founded upon utes having expired. the doctrine therein contained that the wife must Mr. SILVESTER - Mr. Chairman- be in subjection to her husband, ahd that in public Mr. BICKFORD - Mr. Chairman, I was about assemblies females should keep silence and should to make a request of the committee to be allowed be keepers at home. Tile first of these rules must to continue my remarks on the assumption that be violated unless the wife votes precisely as her no one else desired to speak. husband does and in accordance with his comThe CHAIRMAN- The Chair is of the opinion mands and instructions, which would destroy all that the gentleman from Jefferson [Mr. Bickford] independence of action on her part, and for this the is out of order. The gentleman from Columbia advocates of female suffrage certainly will not [Mr. Silvester] has the floor. contend. Mr. SILVESTER- Were it not that as a Mr. LAPHAM - Will the gentleman from Go4achelor, Mr. Chairman, I feel that I have a per- lumbia [Mr. Silvester] allow me to ask him a sonal interest in the question before the committee, question? Does not the same authority require and that it is necessary for me to give a reason that servants should obey their masters? -for the vote which I shall cast in the negative Mr. SILVESTER -That suggestion has been.upon this question, I do not know that I should already answered by the gentleman from Jefferson,occupy the attention of the committee after the [Mr. Bickford] and I do not propose to answer it indulgence that was extended to me the other again at this time. The second injunction, that 441 * woman should keep silence in public assemblies must be violated because she invariably will be led into talking at public gatherings. It is proverbial that women love to speak. It seems to be a natural quality with them. All of us have experienced lthe pleasure which flows therefrom in the charmed circle of domestic and social life. Once introduce them within the range of politics and they will be constantly exercising their peculiar gift, and will be enlightening the electors of the State from every political platform to which they can have access. But again, the third injunction will be violated, which requires that they should be keepers at home. We can see how it is violated now. We have only to refer to the reported proceedings of the meeting of the American Equal Rights Association, held this year, to learn the extent to which they will be kept from home by engaging in politics. This report states that Lucy Stone is already in Kansas, " speaking in all her townsand cities-in churches, school-houses, barns and the open air; traveling night and day, by railroad, stage and ox cart; scaling the rocky divides or fording the swollen rivers; greeted everywhere by crowded audiences of brave men and women." Give to females the right to exercise the elective franchise, and they will be everywhere else but at home; and although in this day of apologies for bonnets, the scripture rule that women should have the head covered, is daily violated. [Laughter.] Voluntary disobedience of one precept is no argument for our permitting her to transgress others. We have already gone almost as far as possible in dividing those who have been joined together in the most solemn manner, by according to the wife nearly the same rights of holding and acquiring property and conducting business on her own account, as if she were a feme sole; and such an advanced stage of progress has already been reached in this respect, that instead of the wife being, as one gentleman has stated, merely an appendage to the husband, the husband in very many instances is now hardly anything more than an ornament to the wife. The very arguments of the advocates of female suffrage contain some of the strongest reasons against it. Samuel J. May, one of the shining lights of the Equal Rights Association makes use of the following language: " The true family is the type of the true State.' And again, " What should the government of a nation be? Ought it not to be as much as possible like the government of a well-ordered family? Can you think of any model so good as the divine model set before us in the family? What would the family be with a father and without a mother?" Now, what is the true structure of a family? In the old Saxon idiom, the husband is the "' huse-band "- he is the center around which the family clusters. He is its head and main dependence and the happiness and prosperity of the whole family, are promoted by obedience to the head, not an enforced and an unwilling obedience but a cheerful and prompt compliance. There are certain peculiar duties pertaining to each member of the family, and no one can discharge those which are within the appropriate province of another without violating the 56 beauty and harmony of the domestic relations. What is beautiful in the boy may not be in the man; what is beautiful in the wife may not be in the Lusband, and the converse of the proposition is equally true. The father of one of the most active advocates of female suffrage recognized the fact that woman was transgressing her appropriate sphere in entering upon public life, by addressing her after she had commenced her career as an orator as " my dear sir" and subscribing himself " I am, dear sir, very respectfully yours." And so, too, the gentleman from Jefferson [Mr. Bickford], when acting as chairman of the meeting in favor of female suffrage in this hall a few evenings since, in introducing the speaker of the evening, instinctively spoke of her as " Mr." Lucy Stone. [Laughter] But, sir, in addition to what I have already submitted, the right to vote is not demanded by the majority of the females themselves or by any considerable number of them. When I make this assertion I judge from my own neighborhood, and I know of hardly any of the ladies of the town in which I have the honor to reside, who desire to exercise the elective franchise, or who would go to the polls if permitted so to do, and I am not willing to admit that any section of the State, has more accomplished, more patriotic, more public-spirited, more high-souled, more active females than the old town of Kinderhook. I feel assured that if the question should be submitted to them, for their decision, it would receive an almost unanimous vote in the negative. I came here uninstructed as to the course I should pursue upon this floor as a delegate except upon this one subject. The ladies of my acquaintance gave me as a parting instruction a direction to vote against female suffrage, and knowing that I am a very modest and diffident man [laughter]. they enjoined upon me, if I should dare to speak at all in this body, to raise my voice and utter my protest against the measure. Page 1 of the pamphlet of the Equal Rights Association which has been laid upon our tables shows that it is only about a half dozen "live women " in the words of Miss Anthony, who are creating this sensation throughout the country, who are canvassing the State of New York and besieging the Legislature and the delegates to the Constitutional Convention with tracts and petitions. One week we see them in Kansas, agitating the question of female suffrage there, and the next week they are in this hall advocating their views or publishing private appeals. But in order to magnify their numbers, they are active in traveling from one quarter of the land to another. They make their forces in this manner appear very numerous and powerful, so as to induce men who always yield in the end to the demand of woman, to believe that it is her desire to claim this privilege. They resort to the artifice of the Dodge Club, when in its journeyings in Italy it was attacked by brigands and captured. One of their number had in his possession a revolver and by ingeniously passing it in the shades of the evening from one to the other, the brigands supposed that all were armed with that terrible weapon. But it is said there is no representation for females, and that as she is taed, she should have the right to vote. Pot 442 eigners and minors hold property and pay and daughters of our land to say that they are detaxes, but cannot exercise the elective fran- graded; it is a slander upon their noble characters chise. I deny, however, that women are unrepre- upon the self-denying patriotism which they have sented. The husband represents the wife; her so often exhibited, upon the many virtues which influence operates powerfully in controlling his they have illustrated, and upon the many works of conduct, even in political matters, and with respect genius which they have produced. Are the thouto the ladies who are yet unmarried, those of us sands of females in the land, who, like the Spartan who are bachelors are only too happy to consider mother as their sons departed from their warm ourselves as representing them and casting a bal-! embrace to join the ranks of the defenders of lot for them at the polls. But with the right to their country, enjoined them to return with their vote will follow the right to hold office, and if fe- shield or upon it, degraded because they are not male suffrage is accorded, we shall soon see posted invested with the right or privilege of suffrage? up in every public place the announcements such as But if woman is degraded, will her admission to "Mrs. Amelia Wilhelmina Squiggs, a candidate for the position of an elector immediately elevate her? Congress, will address the citizens of Booneville on Intrigues figure to a great extent in politics and the exciting and important issues involved in the feminine acuteness of intellect is peculiarly adaptnext election." [Laughter.] And asthey cannot ask ed to the field of intrigue. Introduce the female to have the privileges without sharing the burdens, element into politics and intrigues therein will be they must be liable to jury and militia duty. If they largely increased, and woman, in place of being shall be allowed or required to serve upon juries, it elevated will be lowered, and instead of occupying will be necessary to enlarge the jury-box of every the eminence which she now adorns and graces, court-house to provide for their admission, on ac- might in many instances sink to the level of a petcount of their expansive crinoline. [Laughter.] And ty village politician. But theTe is another objeccould any woman be expected, if sitting on a grand tion, and that is, that the granting of the elective jury, to observe that part of the oath which enjoins franchise to females would tend to obstruct the way that the counsel of the people and their fellows, to the polls. It is now frequently difficult to apthey shall safely keep; it wiould be only another proach the ballot box and at times it is a matinstance that a woman cannot keep a secret. ter of complaint that all the votes cannot be polled; [Laughter.] And, sir, suppose we consider them if, in addition to the other obstacles, the path as enrolled in the militia, what uniform are they to the ballot-box is to be rendered additionally to support? Are they to don the regulation pat- inaccessible by the presence of expanding crinotern of the national guard of the State of New line andflowing waterfalls, we, poorunfortunate masYork, or are they to appear in expansive crinoline, in culine specimens of humanity, would be placed on flowing train, in head-dress and waterfall? [Laugh- those occasions decidedly in the vocative. [Laughter.] Doubtless in the latter. How difficult then, the ter.] And again, sir, the admission of woman to the task of the inspecting officer would be on a field elective franchise would interfere with those beauday. Here is a regiment composed of male and tiful dreams in which we all love to wander, and female; here is a rank, at the right extremity of dissipate all the charm which lingers around the which is located private William Brown, next to ideals of song, romance and poetry. Who could him appears private Mary Smith, next to endure to think of Ellen, the bright and graceful her private John Jones, and next to him Lady of the Lake, leaving her highland home to private Jane Noakes, and so alternately wrangle around the polling booth? or who would to the extreme left. The inspector stations wish to picture Rebecca, the fair Jewess, pressing himself next to private William Brown, her way to the polls to enforce her rights, instead and ranges his eye along the line of warriors to of calling upon her faithful Ivanhoe to redress her test its straightness, but the poor masculine sol- wrongs? The many tears which have been shed diers are completely hidden by the crinoline of the over the sorrowful fate of Lucy, the gentle and feminine warriors, and the inspector, completely unfortunate bride of Lammermoor, would long baffled, is obliged to relinquish his task. And since have ceased to flow had she been sufficiently when this valiant company shall start to march, advanced to be in sympathy with the doctrines of with what marvelous rapidity, regularity, and pre- the strong-minded females of the present age, that cision would their movements be conducted. all herinjuriescould havebeen alleviated or removed [Laughter.] But it is said by the advocates of by the right to exercise the elective franchise. female suffrage that woman is degraded, and will And though Di Vernon, that peculiarly fascinanot be elevated till the ballot has been conferred ting creation of Scott, which even at this distance of upon her. I have not been so taught to regard her. time can hardly fail to elicit a chivalric love, has The gentleman from Richmond [Mr. Curtis], very somewhat of the character of a hoyden, as fearfittingly and pertinently inquired: Did any English- less and free she gallops over moor and heather man who rode into the jaws of death at Balaklava, on her proud black charger, or appears in almost serve England better than Florence Nightingale? inaccessible fastnesses in the north of Scotland; yet And I would beg leave to amend the inquiry I feel warranted in saying that a great part of the by asking: Is Florence Nightingale degraded be- charm of her character would be lost had she cause she is not entitled to vote? Add does not been an advocate for female suffrage. And then, the general verdict of humanity pronounce her not to speak of the influence which the conferring career to have been more truly glorious amid the of the elective franchise upon women would hospitals of Scutari than it could have possibly exercise in the domestic circle I What a dismal been if she had attempted to wield the sword and prospect would be opened up before those of us contend on the field of battle for the cross of St. who are bachelors. Even now it is necessary George. It is a slander upon the wives, mothers if any one of us shall happen to be so fortunate 443 or unfortunate as to become interested in any fair statement, and make a most humble apology to charmer, to neglect all business, to learn poetry, him. to quote poetry, to recite poetry, to sing poetry, Mr. BICKFORD- I will say, certainly, that I to walk through shady groves and by rippling did not intend to. streams, to:make the woods vocal with the Mr. GRAVES -Is it in order to call up a resoname of.tho adored "Dulcinea." But bestow lution offered by me on the 10th of July as an the right to vote. upon the enchantress, and in amendment to the proposition offered by the genaddition it will beo necessary to adopt her political tleman from Richmond [Mr. Curtis]? code, to embrace her political views, to swear by The CHAIRMAN-The Chair is of the opinion her political principles, to support her political that it is not in order, because there are two candidates, or else our most abject suit may be amendments now pending. denied, our most importunate prayer disregarded, Mr. GRAVES-My proposition is to give to our most fervent entreaty unheeded, and we be women the elective franchise, provided they desire compelled to remain in a solitary and deplorable it. I offered it then as an amendment, and I state of bachelordom all the rest of our mortal lives. desire to speak upon that proposition when it is in [Laughter.] For one, I take up this night my order. If it is not in order of course I will not mournful lamentation and boldly declare that our rise to it to-night. condition would then be utterly miserable and The CHAIR-It is not now in order. deplorable. The picture drawn by Solomon cor- Mr. E. A. BROWN-I desire to ask the unanlresponds with my ideal of a model woman, and mous consent of the Convention that the gentleI cannot discover that he enumerates the capacity man from Jefferson [Mr. Bickford] may be allowed rightly to exercise the elective franchise as among to finish his remarks. her desirable or essential qualities. The CHAIRMAN-The gentleman from Jeffer"She seeketh wool and flax, and worketh will- son can proceed with his remarks if there be no ingly with her hands. objection. "She layeth her hands to the spindle and her Mr. BICKFORD-I was saying, Mr. Chairman, hands hold the distaff. when my time had expired that, I would not " She stretcheth out her hand to the poor, yea, attempt to dwell upon the scene which will be she reacheth forth her hands to the needy. exhibited in this hall, when the Speaker recog"She is not afraid of the snow for her house- nizes "the lady from Westchester." [Laughter.] hold, for all her household are clothed with scarlet. Small chance then will gentlemen have to "catch " Her husband is known in the gates when he the Speaker's eye," especially if the Speaker be a sitteth among the elders of the land. ladies' man, as he will be if any man at all. "She maketh herself coverings of tapestry; her [Laughter.] But the inquiry I make, and it must clothing is silk and purple. be made, is as to the average sense of justice "Strength and honor are her clothing, and she and the quality of mercy in the female mind. shall rejoice in time to come. I feel constrained to say, because the truth " She openeth her mouth with wisdom; and in demands it, that the female mind is by no means her tongue is the law of kindness. as just or as merciful as the average male "She looketh well to the ways of her household, mind. Especially towards women, women are and eateth not the bread of idleness." notoriously unjust and unmerciful. It will be I have always considered a perfect woman, hard for women when they are tried by womennobly discharging every duty of her station, as a "by their peers," as has been demanded. May spirit pure and bright, warninr, comforting and the Lord have mercy on their souls, for the judge commanding with something of an angel voice, and jury will not. [Laughter.] I am not slanderand moving in an ethereal region elevated above ing the sex. God did not design them to be this earthly sphere. I am unwilling to have this judges, nor jurymen, and therefore He has not charm dissipated; to have woman dethroned from given them the necessary qualities to fill those her truly exalted position; to have her sublime stations properly. He has designed woman for a mission degraded; and am, therefore, opposed to most important and honorable class of duties; the amendment of the gentleman from Richmond. and for those He has admirably fitted her. But He Mr. BICKFORD-I rise to a question of has not bestowed on her the judicial mind, for He privilege. The gentleman from Columbia [Mr. never designed her to be a judge. We may well Silvester], who has just taken his seat, has stated pity the women, when women make and administhat at the woman's rights meeting in this chamber, the laws. Nor will it be much better with men. at which I was unexpectedly called upon to preside, The laws, as made by men and administered by and which I did very reluctantly, I introduced the them, have ever been tender of the rights of speaker, on that occasion as "Mr. Lucy Stone." women, and especially merciful and forbearing. [Laughter]. I wish to explain in relation to that I was once in my life on a grand jury. A matter. I did not intend to make such anannounce- woman complained of a man for striking her. ment, and I do not wish the statement to go forth An indictment was found at once, and unani. i the reports of our proceedings that I did make mously. SOon after a man complained of another such a remark without some explanation. man for striking him. The case was full as agAnd I take occasion to say here that I grevated as the case where the woman was struck. did not so introduce the lady; or, if I did, I did I voted to find a bill, but I voted alone. If a not intend to, for I do not think I am capable of complaint had been made by a man against a wosuch an intentional insult. man for striking him, I do not believe even I Mr. SILVESTER - If the gentleman states that would have voted for the- bill. [Laughter.] My he did not so introduce the lady I will correct my observation is that crimes are committed by 444 women full as frequently as by men. But women, The SECRETARY proceeded to read the resobecause of the mercy of man towards the oppo- lution adopted Thursday, July 18th, by which site sex, are rarely punished criminally. But if, after that date speakers on the pending question instead of occupying their present position as the were limited to twenty minutes. friends and companions of men, who labor and Mr. MILL ER-I called for the reading of the toil for their support, they are to become the rule that I might learn whether it applied to the rivals of men in all the rough and public discussion of the whole report of the oornwalks of life, they must expect to be mittee or only to the amendment of the gentleman treated with no more consideration than their from Richmond [Mr. Curtis]. If it only applied merits deserve. Nothing will be conceded to to that amendment, I would not object, but it them more than to men. They must enjoy no seems to me that we must enforce the rule or we more than they earn, and they must stand or fall will never have a decision on the report of the according to their own conduct. Men who want committee. office must be allowed to jostle the women out if Mr. HAND - I would like to state the reason — they can. Women who become politicians must The CHAIRMAN - The gentleman from Delaexpect to be treated like other politicians. Their ware [Mr. Miller] having objected, the gent'eman conduct will be arraigned, questioned, tried, cen- from Broome [Mr. Hand] cannot be allowed the sured, condemned. Newspapers will speak dis- floor. paragingly of them. Stump speeches will be made Mr. GREELEY-If we could take a vote on the expressly to discredit them. They will be sland. pending amendment, the gentleman from Herkiered, vilified, abused. All their short-comings mer [Mr. Graves] could then introduce his amendand peccadillos will be brought to light, and ment which would give the gentleman from frightful additions made. Let it not be said that Broome [Mr. Hand] a further opportunity to admen will be too polite and just to act in this dress the committee. manner towards the ladies. Men may be, for Mr. HAND - I gave way for the recess on the very shame. But men will not be the only politi- express condition that I should be allowed to finish cians. The women will be in the field. And my argument. then I sad will it be for women candidates. They The question was then put on the amendment will be slandered without mercy and without stint, of Mr. Curtis, and it was declared lost, on a Men slander women? No sir; it will not be neces- division, by a vote of 19 to 43. sary. The women will most gladly save them the Mr. CASSIDY - I call the attention of the trouble. And many a lady, who at present is an Convention to the fact that there is no quorum ornament to society, and the glory of her sex, it present and voting. may be feared will become a brawling, slandering, Mr. RATHBUN -A large number of gentleunscrupulous, political virago. It will be a sad men present did not rise and vote. time indeed for women who aspire to office when The CHAIRMAN —The Chair will again anwomen become voters. Nor less sad will it be nounce the question. for society when women shall have forsaken their The question was again put on the amendment proper sphere, and when their energies shall be of Mr. Curtis, and it was declared lost on a divicalled forth to publicly slander and traduce those sion, by a vote of 20 to 51. of their own sex. In conclusion, I thank the Mr. RATHBUN - I ask that the roll be called. committee for the courtesy extended to me in The CHAIRMAN - The Chair will inform the allowing me to conclude my remarks. gentleman from Cayuga [Mr. Rathbun], that the Mr. HAND -Can I have the opportunity of roll cannot be called in Committee of the Whole. concluding my remarks if there be no objection? The Chair, however, is of the opinion from the Mr. HARDENBURGH - I move, Mr. Chair- numbeis exhibited in taking the vote, that there is man, that we now adjourn, or rather that- not a quorum present, and it will, therefore, ask The CHAIRMAN -The Chair will inform the the President to resume his seat. gentleman from Ulster [Mr. Hardenburgh] that a The PRESIDENT resumed the chair in Conmotion to adjourn cannot be entertained in Conm- vention. mittee of the Whole. Mr. ALVORD, from the Committee of the Mr. HARDENBURGH - I correct myself by Whole, reported that the committee had had under moving that the committee do now rise and report consideration the report of the Committee on the progress. Right of Suffrage and the Qualifications to Hold The question was then put on the motion of Office, and that on a division being had in commitMr. Hardenburgh, and it was declared lost. tee, it was ascertained there was no quorum Mr. HAND —I would like the unanimous con- present. sent of the committee to conclude what I have to Mr. GREELEY -I move a call of the roll. say on the question pending. Mr. FOLGER -I move that the Convention do Mr. MILLER - I would like to have the rule now adjourn. read under which we are acting, and by which The question was put on the motion of speeches are limited to twenty minutes. Mr. Folger, and it was declared lost, on a division, Mr. HAND —We admit the existence of the by a vote of 26 to 41. rule. It is only by courtesy and unanimous con- The SECRETARY proceeded to call the roll sent that I ask to be permitted to continue. of the Convention, and the following delegates Mr. BARTO -I hope the gentleman from were found to be present: Broome [Mr. Hand], will be allowed to proceed. Messrs. A. F. Allen, C. L. Allen, N. M. Allen, I would like to have my district well represented Alvord, Baker, Barto, Beals, Beckwith, Bell, Bickin the debates. ford, E. Brooks, E. A. Brown, Carpenter, Case, Cas 445 sidy, Champlain, Corbett, Corning, Curtis, Eddy, Ely, Endress, Farnum, Field, Folger, Fowler, Fuller, Garvin, Gould, Grant, Graves, Greeley, Gross, Hadley, Hale, Hammond, Hand, Hardenburgli, Hiscock, Hitchcock, Houston, Kinney, Krum, Lapham, A. Lawrence, M. H. Lawrence, Lee, Ludington, Mattice, McDonald, Merritt, Merwin, Miller, Opdyke, A. J. Parker, President, Prindle, Prosser, Rathbun, Rogers, Root, Rumsey, Silvester, Smith, Spencer, S. Townsend, Van Campen, Van Cott, Wakeman, Wales, Williams-71. On motion of Mr. ALVORD the Convention adjourned. TUESDAY, July 23, 1867. The Convention met at 11 o'clock A. M. The Journal of yesterday was read by the SECRETARY and approved. Mr. BICKFORD - If it is in order I would now ask leave of absence for Mr. Clinton, of Erie, for to-day and to-morrow. He is under the necessity of being absent to attend a meeting of the State Teachers' Association at Auburn for the purpose of delivering an address before the association. There being no objection, leave was granted. Mr. E. BROOKS -I present a petition of the first Directress of the Nursery and Child's Hospital, asking that in regulating the charities of the State, the claims of a foundling hospital may be considered. As this petition presents some information of rather uncommon importance, both to the Convention and State, I ask the consent of the Convention that it be referred to the Committee on Charities and Charitable Institutions, and be printed. There being no objection, the petition was referred to the Committee on Charitable Institutions. and ordered to be printed. Mr. REYNOLDS asked a leave of absence for Mr. Clark, until Thursday, on account of sickness. Which was granted. Mr. LEE presented a petition of forty-eight citizens of Oswego county, asking that a separate clause to the Constitution, prohibiting the sale of intoxicating liquors, be submitted for the decision of the electors of the State. Which was referred to the Committee on Adulterated Liquors. Mr. ALVORD presented the memorial of William E. Pabor and twenty-nine others, citizens of New York, in favor of submitting to the people a constitutional provision to prohibit the sale and use of intoxicating liquors as a beverage. Which was referred to the Committee on Adulterated Liquors. Mr. GROSS presented fourteen petitions signed by several thousand citizens of New York, asking for a provision to be inserted in the Constitution regulating the sale of liquors, and against prohibitory legislation. Which was referred to the Committee on Adulterated Liquors. Mr. OPDYKE presented a petition from the sons of temperance signed by eighty citizens of the State asking for a constitutional provision to be separately submitted to the people prohibiting the sale of intoxicating liquors as a beverage. Which was referred to the Committee on Adulterated Liquors. Mr. STRATTON presented the memorial of Geo. W. Dilks and forty others, citizens of tbcity of New York, asking that the Legislature and municipal and local authorities be prohibited from donating or appropriating any money or moneys or property to any sectarian denomination. Which was referred to the Committee on the Powers and Duties of the Legislature. Mr. STRATTON also presented eighteen petitions in favor of regulating and against prohibiting the sale of intoxicating liquors Which was referred to the Committee on Adulterated Liquors. Mr. RATHBUN presented the petition of E. B. Marvin and twenty-five others, citizens of Owasco, Cayuga county, praying against the donations of public money to sectarian institutions. Which was referred to the Committee on the Powers and Duties of the Legislature. Mr. CURTIS presented a petition signed by Elizabeth Cady Stanton, Margaret Livingston Murray, and twenty-six others. citizens of New York; also a petition of Elwood Valentine, and thirty-five others, citizens of Queens county; also petition of Elizabeth B. Voorhies, and twenty-two others, citizens of Flushing, asking for equal suffrage for men and women. Which were referred to the Committee of the Whole. Mr. FOWLER presented the petition of Sarah H. Laird, and one hundred and twenty-six others, citizens of the village of Canastota, Madison county, praying for equal suffrage for females. Which was referred to the Committee of the Whole. Mr. FOWLER also presented the petition of C. D. Turner and seventy-nine others, citizens of Hartford asking that the Legislature be prohibited from making donations to charitable and sectarian purposes. Which was referred to the Committee on the Powers and Duties of the Legislature. Mr. CASSIDY presented a petition from the New York State Workingmen's Assembly in relation to the eight hour limitation and the homestead exemption act, and asked that it be printed. Which was referred to the Committee on Industrial Interests. Mr. FOLGER moved that the memorial of Mr. Cassidy be referred to the Committee on Printing. The question was put on*the motion of Mr Folger, and it was declared to be carried. Mr. T. W. DWIGHT presented the petition of M. H. Robinson and thirty-seven others,-asking for the prohibition of donating public money to sectarian institutions. Which was referred to the Committee on the Powers and Duties of the Legislature. Mr. T. W. DWIGHT also presented the petition of John H. McLaughlin and others, asking that a separate clause be submitted to the people prohibiting the sale of intoxicating liquors. Which was referred to the Committee on Adulterated Liquors. Mr. T. W. DWIGHT also presented a petition from the town of Lebanon, in relation to charitable devises and bequests. Which was referred to the Committee on Charities and Charitable Institutions. 446 Mr. FIELD presented the memorial of S. L Terpening, and fifty others, in favor of a constitu tional prohibition of the sale of intoxicating drinks as a beverage. Which was referred to the Committee on Adulterated Liquors. Mr. GOODRICH presented the petition of Herman Camp, of Trumansburgh, and two hundred and twenty-five others, citizens of Tompkins, Schuyler and Seneca counties, praying for a constitutional prohibition against the donations of money for sectarian purposes. Which was referred to the Committee on the 'Powers and Duties of the Legislature. Mr. HISCOCK presented the memorial of members of the Reformed Presbyterian Church, of the town of Onondaga, asking for a more complete recognition of God as the source of power, and of the divinity of Christ and inspiration of the Holy Scriptures in the Constitution. Which was referred to the Committee on the Preamble and Bill of Rights. Mr. MORRIS presented the petition of S. W. Mills and one hundred and twenty-three others, in favor of prohibiting donations of public money to sectarian institutions. Which were referred to the Committee on the the Powers and Duties of the Legislature. Mr. DUGANNE presented a petition of Charles J. Grant and one hundred and forty-five others, citizens of New York; also the petition of lia O. Miller, Edward J. Tichenor, John J. Hoffman, and two hundred and three others, citizens of New York; also petition of Rev. Thomas H. Skinner and one hundred and fourteen others; also petition of Isaac J. Oliver and tw3nty-five others; also petition of J. H. Handburch and one hundred and fifty-nine others; also petition of William Thompson, L. H. Kirby and others; also petition of William O. C. Kimball and one hundred and twenty-five others; also petition of Rev. Peter Stryker and one hundred and eleven others; also petition of A. W. Walker and one hundred and two others, asking for a provision in the Constitution prohibiting the donation of public money to sectarian institutions. Which were referred to the Committee on the Powers and Duties of the Legislature. Mr. E. BROOKS offered the following resolution: Resolved, That the Committee on Corporations, other than Municipal, Banking and Insurance, be directed to inquire into the expediency of making the following amendment to the Constitution: " All corporations in this State shall be governed by directors to be elected once in each year by the stockholders thereof; and no stockholder shall vote at any election who has not been such for ninety days continuously, next preceding the election." The question was put on the resolution of Mr. Brooks, and it was declared to be adopted. Mr. SHERMAN offered the following resolution: Resolved, That the following article be adopted as a part of a proposed Constitution, to be submitted to the people, pursuant to chapter 194 of the Laws of 1867. ARTICLE - SECTION 1. Exclusive authority is given to boards of supervisors to legislate in their respective counties on the following specified subjects. 1. The location, erection, purclase, and reparation of bridges, except over navigable streams. 2. The location and purchase of town and county buildings and lands, and the construction, care and preservation of such buildings. 3. The creation of separate road districts on public highways. 4. The discontinuance, with the consent of the corporators, or by lawful abandonment of park, turnpike and macadamised roads, and the use and working of them as public highways. 5. The fencing, working and improvement of public highways, laid out in pursuance of the general laws of the State, in cases where the general laws of the State are insufficient to accomplish the object. 6. The laying out, opening, extension, improvement and alteration of lines of streets in cities and incorporated villages in cases where provision may not be made in their charters, or by the general laws of the State for that purpose. 7. The consolidation of school-districts, the change of boundaries of such districts, the raising and application of the funds consequent thereon, and of funds for the location, erection and reparation of school-houses, where exceeding the amount authorized by the general laws of the State, subject otherwise, however, to such general laws; but no action under this subdivision shall be operative until a certificate of approval shall be made by the Superintendent of Public Instruction, and filed in the office of the Secretary of State. 8. The legalization of the acts of town meetings in reference to the raising of moneys authorized by law, and the legalization of the irregular acts of town officers in cases where the county court shall recommend such legalization. 9. The fixing of the salaries of county officers, and of the number, grades and pay of clerks and subordinate employees in county offices, whose compensation may be a county charge. 10. The draining of swamp lands lying exclusively within the county. 11. The borrowing of money for town and county purposes, in anticipation of taxation authorized by law. The Legislature shall provide for the publication in such form as they shall deem necessary, of all laws passed by boards of supervisors pursuant to the provisions of this article. ~ 2. The concurrent action of the boards of supervisors shall be necessary to authorize the location, purchase, erection or reparation of bridges between such counties. Which was referred to the Committee on Counties, Towns and Villages. Mr. SHERMAN, also offered the following resolution: Resolved, That the following article be adopted as a part of a proposed Constitution to be submitted to the people, pursuant to chapter 194 of the Laws of 1867. SECTION 1. The Legislature shall provide by general laws for the following specified objects, and they shall not be made in any case the subjects of special legislation. 447 1. The creation of corporations except for municipal purposes. 2. The adjustment of all pecuniary claims against the State. 3. The laying out and opening of public and private roads except in cities and incorporated villages. 4. The regulation of the fees of State, county and town officers in cases where the payment of fees for official services may be deemed proper. Which was referred to the Committee on the Powers and Duties of the Legislature. Mr. GREELEY called up for consideration the resolution offered by him yesterday. The SECRETARY proceeded to read the resolution, ag, follows: Resolved, That the Convention will proceed on Wednesday, at one P. m., to act upon the article reported by the Committee on the right of SufI frage, as it shall have been reported from the Committee of the Whole; every amendment that i shall have been or which may be proposed shall be separately presented, and five minutes allowed the mover to explain and commend it, with a like opportunity for one reply, when the vote shall be taken thereon. All amendments having thus been disposed of, the vote shall be taken by yeas and nays on the article itself. Mr. AXTELL - I move to lay the resolution on the table. Mr ALVORD - I rise to a point of order. The resolution was laid on the table by a vote yesterday; therefore it requires a vote of the Convention to bring it up. Mr. GREELEY-It was simply laid on the table because it gave rise to debate. The PRESIDENT -The Chair will inform the gentleman from Onondaga [Mr. Alvord] that the Secretary informs it that the gentleman is mistaken. The PRESIDENT announced the question to be upon the motion of Mr. Axtell to lay the resolution upon the table. Mr. GREELEY called for the ayes and noes. A sufficient number seconding the call the ayes and noes were ordered. Mr. VERPLkNCK-I want to ask the gentleman from Westchester [Mr. Greeley] a question. Does he intend by his resolution to prevent amendments in the Convention not offered in the Committee of the Whole. Mr. GREELEY-It expressly says not. The words are clear. The question was then put upon the motion of Mr. Axtell, and it was declared to be lost, by the following vote: Ayes-Messrs. Axtell, Baker, Barnard, Cassidy, Chesebro. Comstock, Corbett, Corning, Curtis, Daly, C. C. Dwight, Gerry, Hale, Hitchcock, Lapham, Lowrey, McDonald, Roy, Wickham and Young -20. Noes-Messrs. A. F. Allen, C. L. Allen, N. M. Allen, Alvord, Andrews, Archer, Barker, Barto, Beadle, Beals, Beckwith, Bell, Bickford, Bowen, E. Brooks, E. P. Brooks, E. A. Brown, Burrill, Carpenter, Case, Champlain, Cheritree, Church, Cochran, Duganue, T. W. Dwight, Eddy, Ely, Endress, Evarts, Farnum, Field, Flagler, Folger, Fowler, Francis, Frank, Fuller, Garvin, Goodrich, Gould, Grant, Graves, Greeley, Gross, Hadley, Hammond, Hand, Hardenburgh, Hatch, Hiscock, Hitchman, Houston, Hutchins, Krum, Landon, Larremore, Law, A. Lawrence, A. R. Lawrence, M. H. Lawrence, Lee, Livingston, Loew, Ludington, Magee, Masten, Merrill, Merritt, Merwin, Miller, Morris, Murphy, Nelson, Opdyke, A. J. Parker, Pond, Potter, President, Prindle, Prosser, Rathbun, Reynolds, Rogers, Root, Rumsey, A. D. Russell, Schumaker, Seaver, Seymour, Silvester, Sheldon, Sherman, Spencer, Stratton, S. Townsend, Van Cott, Verplanck, Wakeman, Wales, Weed, and Williams-101. Mr. MURPHY-I think the resolution is defective in form. It does not provide for this report being made by the Committee of the Whole to the Convention. I think it would be advisable to amend this resolution, to provide that a report be made at one o'clock. The object of my rising was to ask the gentleman from Westchester [Mr. Greeley] to make his resolution for Thursday instead of Wednesday. Nothing will be lost by putting it off a day, or two days. We can take the vote upon any time fixed, and go on with the other business. By adjourning it for one day or two days it will accommodate very much the gentleman from Schenectady [Mr. Paige], who desires to be present on taking the vote in order to present some amendment. I hope the gentleman will consent. The great object of the gentleman, I suppose, is that he may have as full a house as possible. Mr. GREELEY-When I proposed last week to close this discussion, the gentleman from Schenectady [Mr. Paige], appealed to me not to make it Tuesday, because he could not be here Tuesday, and as he then suggested, he thought he might be here Wednesday. I prepared this resolution with express reference to his convenience as stated to me at the time. Now, it seems to me if we should commence now voting upon amendments-there will probably be thirty or forty-it will take us all day Wednesday to get through, so on Thursday, we may get to a vote on the main question. I submit to the Convention, if the Convention desires it put off another day, I propose Wednesday one o'clock as the time. I apprehend the Committee of the Whole will adapt its action in accordance with the vote of the Convention. I have no doubt it will do so. If we desire to have this vote taken at one o'clock. I am quite sure the Committee of the Whole will adapt its action to that fact. I shall submit to the Convention and I desire that the Convention should decide and not me. Mr. MURPHY —The gentleman from Schenectady [Mr. Paige] is one of the Board of Trustees of Union College which holds its exercises to-day and to-morrow. It is very necessary that he should be there, and I suppose when he intimated to the gentleman from Westchester that he would require to be absent on Tuesday and hoped to be here on Wednesday, it did not occur to him that those exercises would occupy two days. I submit that matter, however, to the Convention and move, in order to take its sense, to amend the resolution by striking out the word " Wednesday" and inserting in lieu thereof the word " Thursday." Mr. E. A. BROWN- There are other gentle 448 men, Mr. President, who are absent. Judge Mr. LEE - Is it competent after the action by Harris is one of the trustees of that college and the Convention for the gentleman to accept the is now absent attending the meeting of the trus- amendment? tees, and I understood from Judge Paige that they The PRESIDENT - If no business has interdesired to be present to-morrow. I know there vened and no action taken on the amendment, the are other gentlemen absent who are desirous of gentleman is at liberty to accept it. being present when these votes are taken. I, Mr. FOLGER-I move to strike out Thursday and therefore, hope Thursday will be inserted instead insert Wednesday. The reasons why I offer this of Wednesday. amendment are these: the gentleman from Kings Mr. OPDYKE -I hope the amendment of the [Mr. Murphy] has stated that it would accommnogentleman from Kings [Mr. Murphy] will prevail. date certain gentlemen who are absent from the I understand there are other amendments yet to C'onvention. The gentleman from Schenectady [Mr. be offered to the report of the Committee on Suf- Paige], and the gentleman from Albany [Mir. frage, and it may be they will not be reached under Harris], are absent and expect to be absent until the rules, and they will come before the Conven- Wednesday. If we commence this voting on tion. I think all will agree with me that the Thursday next, the yeas and nays will be called important amendments should have more than five on very many amendments, and it is doubtful minutes allowed to them. I desire that this whether it will be concluded until Friday or amendment should have time to go to the commit- Saturday. I know of several members who will tee and there to be discussed. I think if we post- be called away on business on Friday next, and I pone the time until Thursday it will be better and think their convenience should also be consulted. our work will be better done. I do not think it is the convenience of a few Mr. GREELEY —I willaccept the amendment. gentlemen, but I think it is a question of the Mr. A. J. PARKER- I wish to offer an amend- convenience of the whole Convention which is to ment to the resolution which now provides for a be considered. Therefore I move to strike out discussion of only five minutes on each side to Thursday and insert Wednesday. every amendment that shall be offered to an The question was put on the motion of Mr. amendment. I do not think that is sufficient to Folger, and it was declared carried. enable the Convention to understand properly the Mr. CHURCH - I understood the President to amendment that may be offered. I propose, declare the motion to be carried; as I understood therefore, that other persons may discuss an it, it was the other way. amendment on being restricted to five minutes as The PRESIDENT -The Chair was in error; is the case in regard to persons moving amend- the motion was lost. ments. I propose to amend by inserting after the Mr. FOLGER- I call for the ayes and noes on word " reply " the words, " And any member of that question. the Convention who desires to speak may be heard Mr. CONGER - I rise to a question of orderunder a like limitation of five minutes." that the President of the Convention having deMr. GREELEY-I hope not. That opens an dared the motion to be lost, it is not competent, unlimited field of discussion. We may have one for the gentleman from Ontario [Mr. Folger] to hundred speeches on one amendment. move a call for the ayes and noes. The question was then put on the amendment The PRESIDENT - The Chair is of the opinion of Mr. A. J. Parker, and it was declared to be that it is competent for the gentleman from Ontario adopted. [Mr. Folger] to challenge the correctness of the Mr. CONGER-I would like to inquire of my decision of the Chair. associate from Westchester [Mr. Greeley], who Mr. FOLGER - The reasons given by the genproposed this resolution, whether he means that tleman from Kings [Mr. Murphy] for preferring the amendments that are or may be proposed are Thursday are that two gentlemen cf the Convento be proposed in the Committee of the Whole, or tion are to be absent on Wednesday, and that is whether he means that they may also be proposed the only reason as I understand it. That two in Convention, though not offered in Committee gentlemen, the gentleman from Schenectady [Mr. of the Whole. Paige], and the gentleman from Albany [Mr. HarMr. GREELEY-Certainly. It has been de- ris], are both absent attending at the commencecided by the Convention that amendments may be ment of Union College. There is no doubt but offered in the Convention which have not been all of us would be glad to accommodate ourselves offered in the Committee of the Whole. That is to the personal convenience of those gentlemen; settled by the Convention. but there is also the personal convenience of other Mr. CONGER-I would like to inquire when gentlemen to be considered. I know of three that was so settled. gentlemen who are to be called away by an The PRESIDENT-On Friday last. important reference, which they cannot control. Mr. CONGER-Then it is so definitely settled, one the referee and two others the counsel. They The PRESIDENT-The Chair understands the are obliged to be absent, and to leave here on rule that any amendment may be proposed in the Friday to reach the place of trial on Saturday, so Convention whether proposed in the Committee here is a majority certainly whose convenience of the Whole or not. is to be consulted, not to speak of the rest Mr. LEE-I hope the amendment of the gentle- of tihe Convention who have been staying here man from Kings [Mr. Murphy] will not prevail. listening, not to debates, but to the reading of The PRESIDENT - The amendment has been essays for the last six or ten days; and now we accepted by the gentleman from Westchester [Mr. desire to come to an immediate or very speedy Greeley]. i determination of this question, that we may take 449 up other business upon the table. I do not think the whole Convention is called upon to yield its convenience to the convenience of members, or to suit the convenience of these two who choose to go away at this time; and, as it is suggested to me, they are only an hour's ride from here, and they can come down to attend to any particular vote, or to offer any particular amendment they may wish to offer; and it does seem to me that we should press forward in this matter and take the earliest day, consistent with fairness and with getting before the Convention all the amendments proposed to be offered to this article. Mr. OPDYKE —It seems to me that the honorable gentleman from Ontario [Mr. Folger], overlooks the real objection to inserting the word "Wednesday. " I have already said that we are in Committee of the Whole on the report of the Committee on the right of suffrage; we have been engaged almost a week on a single amendment or two amendments excluding all others that members may desire 'to offer; we may be engaged on those until the time arrives for the committee to report to the Convention, and the offer of an amendment, however important it may be, is confined to five minutes, while a week has been given to probably less important amendments than others that may be offered. It seems to me that it would deprive the Convention of the power of giving that consideration to the amendments that are hereafter to be offered to which they are entitled. If the Convention decides that this debate shall close in committee on Wednesday, and go to the Convention, I shall then move to extend the time from five minutes to twenty minutes for the mover of the amendment, and to give equal time to the replies. Mr. LEE - I suppose it is accepted that the work of this Convention is to be submitted for the action of the electors of this State next November; but at the rate of progress we have made hitherto we shall not be one-half through the work assigned to us. I have sat here in my place, attentively listening to the remarks of gentlemen, interested and I hope instructed. but I confess, sir, that I am not quite as well prepared to vote to-day on many of the propositions which have been discussed here as I was when they were first announced, and I think, sir, unless some limit is made to our action on the preliminary questions that challenge investigation here, we shall not complete our work in time to submit it to the action of the people next Fall. We have already been some fifty days in consultation, in deliberation and debate, and I would inquire what questions have been settled here. I notice, sir, in looking over my fles of papers, that come from different parts of the State, that the people of the State. our constituents, are beginning to inquire whether this Convention has assembled for the purpose of indulging in the exercise simply of debate. My impression is, the idea is gaining ground in the minds of the people tfiat the Convention failsto comprehend the momentous issue to be considered and settled here. If we delay this until Thursday, the probability is it will be riday or Sturday before the preliminary question, inthe firt report made by any committee will be f ly se 'l-: I hope air, this Conveton will not co 57 sent to be a tail to the kite ot the trustees of Union College or any other college. I myselt should be very much pleased to attend the comencement exercises, but I shall deny myself that privilege. I think it is the duty of each member to bring his business in subordination to the busisess of the Convention and I hope the amendmett of the gentleman from Ontario [Mr. Folger] will prevail. Mr. RATHBUN - While I would be willing to accommodate any gentleman as far as can be, without inconvenience, I desire to call the attention of the Convention to a few facts which have occurred lately, and they will be able to judge how far a further time should be given to those who are absent or propose to be absent to-morrow. On Saturday this Convention met and we had about fifty-five or seventy members present. And we were here endeavoring to do our duty and yet incompetent to the performance of any duty because so many of the delegates had left the Convention. We were compelled simply to adjourn and that brought us to a meeting yesterday, on Monday, at one o'clock, and we assembled, and reached the number seventy-one again, and the greater part of another day was lost, for the reason that we had an insufficient number of the members of the Convention present here to perform any duty. Now, sir, here are two days and there are sixty-one or seventy men here voting during the two days, ready and anxious to perform their duty and proceed with the business of this Convention, and they were unable to do it, because it was inconvenient for gentlemen to be present, their business having called them away. Now,.these sixty-one or seventy members are here today and are ready again to proceed with business and anxious to proceed with it. Now, sir, as their convenience was not consulted on Saturday, and they have been here and compelled to remain here, because they felt their duty demanded their presence, they remained. and there was not a man sat here but what desired to go home, and had occasion to go home, but the convenience *and pleasure of going home was held subordinate to the duty which was owing to the people of the State. Sir, shall we forget that these persons who remained and were faithfully in their places, that their comfort, that their desire to progress with the public business, ought to be consulted to some extent, and that it ought not to be postponed, and those held over again another day to.accommodate a couple of gentlemen who desire to be at different places. I submit, sir, that it is not the business of one hundred and twenty-five men, appearing here in public capacity, to postpone the business f: which they are assembled to accommodate any one or two men. I submit that we sho: proceed with this business. We have do: e nothing, virtually nothing; and there wi ie nothing done until we can point our finger to some section of the Constitution which we w ai say has ased, and our labor in regar to it A ended. Sir, I have no desire to tae uP the t of the Convention, but I desire to ask genldeMfe not to forget that while they llng t modate a ew, that the comfort ot li, 'WI 450 and anxious to do business, ought not to be overlooied and delayed, and postponement had at their expense. Mr. VERPLANCK-I do not quite understand the decision of the Chair. The Chair, in the first place, announced that the resolution was lost, and then that the resolution was carried, and then the gentleman called for the ayes and noes. The PRESIDENT - The Chair rules it is competent for any gentleman to challenge the decision of the Chair by calling for the ayes and noes. Mr. VERPLANCK —Then I suppose a motion can always be made after the count is taken. The PRESIDENT- The chair so ruled. Mr. CONGER -If I had understood that to be the ruling of the Chair, I should not have risen to present tlie point of order which I did, but I understood the Chair to say the motion was carried Mr. CORBETT — I rise to a point of order, that it is not proper to discuss this question now, unless an appeal be taken from the decision of the Chair. Mr. CONGER —I do not wish to take an appeal from the decision of the Chair, hut for the purpose of establishing no bad precedent I wish to communicate to the Chair the ground on which I raised the point of order, that he had decided and declared that the motion was lost. That being a decision the subsequent call for the ayes and noes is not a challenge of the count. It is an impeachment of tile decision of the Chair. The PRESIDENT-Tlhe Chair was erroneous in making the decision. The error arose from the fact of the noise in the chamber and at the left of the Chair, so that the Chair could not understand even the Secretary. The Chair understands it is the province of any member of the Convention to challenge the count without, saying directly he challenges the count. He understands that the moving of the ayes and noes is in effect a challenge of the count, no other business having intervened. Mr. CONGER- Unquestionably. Does the Chair rule that after the President says a motion islJost or carried, that then the call for the yeas and nays is a challenge of the count. Mr. BROOKS-If the President will allow me. I suppose any man has a right to call for the yeas and nays before. Mr. AXTELL-No question of order is before the Convention. Mr. BROOKS -Then I appeal from the deci sioniof the Chair, in order that I may speak to my point of order. I suppose the gentlemen of this Convention may call for tile ayes and noes before the Chair announces the result, even after the count has been called, any time up to the announcement of theresult. I suppose a call for the ayes and noes is in order, but I suppose it is agaiit the parliamentary practice, after thle Presidnt ofthe Convention has announced his decision, Ir any gentleman after that time to make a cai for tile aye and noes. Having stated this mch, I withdraw my appeal. IMr FOWSGE -I understand. the President firstannounced the motion carried and then lost and the a mediately called for the ayes and oe iasmuch a t app d there was doubt in te t an it was ncertain and the prar z o iog t a yr ig the names as- they were called. That was why I called for the ayes and noes and which I suppose were in order. It may be that tile gentleman from Richmond [Mr. Brooks] is technically correct in his position that when an announcement is made by the Chair and the time has passed, it is too late to call for the ayes and poes, but there was evidently an uncertainty in the mind of the Chair as to the result. First he decided one way and then another, and then the appeal was made for the ayes and noes. Mr. WEED -It seems to me there was. no uncertainty in the result. The Chair simply misunderstood the SecretaryMr. AXTELL-I rise to a point of order. There is no appeal from the decision of the Chair, and discussing the decision of the Chair is out of order. Mr. WEED - I simply suggest this. If this is to be the ruling, as I understand it, that after a vote has been declared, any one may call for the ayes and noes, I have no objection to it, but it seems to me it comes in the nature of a challenge of the count of the Secretary. The only way to arrive at the question whether the Secretary is right or not, is to call for tellers and appoint them and upon that no one should vote except those voting upon the first vote. The vote was declared by the Secretary, distinctly, 56 noes to 55 ayes. The President misunderstood it. The Secretary announced it right, but the President misunderstood it, and then the President announced the motion was lost, and after that announcement I admit the gentleman from Ontario [Mr. Folger], may challenge the count of the Secretary, but if he does it he must do it in a parliamentary way, and then tellers must be appointed, and none can vote but those who voted before. Mr. CHURCH —I hope the Convention will acquiesce in the call for the ayes and noes in this case, but for the future government of the Convention the proper way is, we should have a correct rule at this time. I understand the parliamentary rule to be that, after the President has declared upon the count, and the question is carried or lost, it is too late then either to challenge the count or call for the ayes and noes. The count that is to be challenged and which is allowed to be challenged, is the count as announced by the Secretary of the Convention. It is too late to challenge that count after the President has adjudged upon it and declared it one way or the other. as I understand the parliamentary rule. But as there was some misapprehension about it, I trust the Convention will acquiesce in it and take tie ayes and noes. The PRESIDENT - The Chair supposes that statement of the rule to be correct. Mr. DUGANNE- Will a motion now be in order? Tile PRESIDENT- The Chair will determine that when he hears it. Mr. DUGAN NE -I move now that, in order to save time, a second count be had. The question was put on the motion of Mr. Duaune, and it was declared lost. Mr. MERRITT-In order to test the sense of. the Convention as to:te time of making this report andm commencigaction upo i, I movo a 451 reconsideration of the last vote, and upon that I day after day to obtain a session of this Convencall the ayes and noes. tion on the evening of each day, that we might The PR ESIDENT- What vote does the gen- have an opportunity to hear the subject fully distieman refer to? cussed, giving gentlemen an opportunity to display ~Mr. MERRITT-Tlhe one proposed by the gen- their oratory here to their fullest extent. But the tleman from Ontario [Mr. Folger]. time has arrived when we must take some action Mr. G-REELLEY-I would inquire whether that on these propositions, and I think we should now would not throw the subject over until to-morrow? take the earliest opportunity possible to do so, and If so, I must object to it. [ am entirely in favor of to-morrow at 12 o'clock Mr. BARKER-I move that the conmittee take as proposed by the gentleman from Chautauqua a vote on the subject to-morrow, and that Wednes- [Mr. Barker]. Should we pass this matter over day at 1 o'clock be inserted in place of 12 o'clock until Tuesday, these gentlemen will leave us withon Thursday. out a quorum in all probability on Friday and SaturMr. MERRITT -Do I understand there was day, and it will go over till next week, and so on objection made to my motion? till the next week, and there is no knowing, unThe PRESIDENT-The Chair understood less we fix sometime now, when a vote maybe there was objection made. had on this proposition. The resolution of the Mr. GR ANT - I hope this amendment will not gentleman from Westchester [Mr. Greeley] is suffiprevail. As I understand, there are proposed a ciently liberal to afford any gentleman who chooses number of amendments to this report here, no one to get up here and talk five minutes on this ques of which has had an opportunity of being heard tion, and certainly the time has arrived when we do in this Convention, and to-morrow at one o'clock not want any more of these two hours or even is too short a time for that purpose. I am content twenty minute speeches. The time for long that gentlemen should consider this report any speaking in my opinion has passed, and the time number of hours on either day. I am content for work has arrived, and I hope the Convention we shall have a morning session, a session are disposed now to take hold of this question and at four o'clock, and another session at half- go at it manfully and fairly, and pass on some past seven o'clock, and that we shall so propositions to submit to the people and finish continue, and I hope that gentleman will not shut their labors as soon as they can conveniently. out the consideration of amendments that I deem Mr. M. I. TOWNSEND - I understand that the more important than any that have yet been con- proposition now before the Convention looks to sidered, and if we adopt to-morrow at twelve hastening the time of our action. It must be pero'clock or one o'clock, we must recollect that we tectly evident to every gentleman in the Convenhave but little more than a single day to consider tion who desires progress, that it is impossible to perhaps four times the number of amendments hasten action in this way. We have no previous that have already been considered during the past question, and this question may be discussed inweek in this Convention. If the time fixed should definitely for at least three weeks: this very be Thursday at one o'clock, then we will have but question before the Convention, just as long as two days, and if we finish the consideration ot gentlemen shall see fit to discuss it, it will last. this report earlier than that, tlere is another re- I concur with the gentleman from Jefferson [Mr. port which may be considered in this Convention. Bell] in the object he desires to accomplish, that it and therefore, to give the movers of all amend is to save time; but we have spent the regular ments a fair opportunity within the short time of session of two entire days, last week, in the distwenty minutes \ to advocate either of these cussion of the way how to do it. It resulted in the amendments. I hope gentlemen of the Conver- ascertainment of the way how not to do it, and this tion will not support this amendment, but allow discussion this morning has nothing in the world in the vote to be taken on Thursday, in accordance its results but the attempt to discover a way how with the original motion of the gentleman from not to do it. In the regular action of our ConWestchester [Mr. Greeley], as amended by the mo- vention. as I wish to explain my action, I hope tion of the gentleman from Riclmond [Mr. Brooks] to-morrow, we shall reach a point at which we Mr. BELL-It is somewhat amusing to those can obtain the previous question, and when a who have been here on either day of the session resolution of this kind comes before us, we can for the last three weeks, to hear gentlemen who act upon it in some way with some limitation, and have absented themselves nearly the whole time, for the purpose of saving to-day for the discussion come up here and say we have not given con- upon the subject that we are discussing in COtnsideration enough to this subject. I was hardly mittee of the Whole, I move to lay this resolutio able to locate the gentleman, not having seen his on the table. face for a long time before he arose; why he co-. Mr. GREELEY called for the ayes and noes.. plains we should give more time to the discussion A sufficient number seconding the call, the aye of this subject. If the gentleman will look back and noes were ordered. at his files, if he has not heard it personally, he Mr. FOLGER-Does that take" the whole will see that this report was introduced the latter question with it? part of June, and it has beer. befbre the Conven. The PRESIDENT- The Chair so decided. tiola constantly ever since, to 'the exclusion of The question was put on the motion of M nearly every other business. Now, sir, it is time M. I. Townsend, to lay on the table, and was we should arrive at something. I have been, as dlared lost by the following vote: an individual, in favor of the largest liberty and Ares- Messrs. Baker, Barnard, Cas0idy, the largest latitude possible in debate, d havestock, Conger, Hale apha, moved r extra sessions, and arose in my ple Smith, M. I. Townsenid S.T end, gn;. r 452 oes — Messrs. A. P. Allen, N. M. Allen, Alvord, Andrews, Archer, Axtell, Barker, Barto, Beadle, eals, Beckwith, Bell, Bergen, Bickford, Bowen, E. Brooks, E. P. Brooks, E. A. Brown, Burrill, Carpenter, Case, Champlain. Cheritree. Chesebro, Church, Cochran, Corbett, Corning, Curtis, Daly, Duganne, C. C. Dwight. T. W. Dwight, Eday, Ely, Endress, Evarts, Farnum. Field, Flagler, Folger, Fowler, Francis, Frank, Fuller, Garvin, Gerry, Goodrich, ' ould, Grant, Graves, Greeley, Gross, Hadley, Hammond, Hand, Iardenburgh, Hatch, Hiscock, Hitchcock, Hitchman, Houston, Hutchins, Krum, Landon, Larrernore, Law, A. Lawrence, A. R. Lawrence, M. H. Lawrence, Lee, Livingston, Loew, Lowrey, Ludington, Magee, Mattice, McDonald, Merrill, Merritt, Merwiu, Miller, Morris, Murphy, Nelson, Opdyke, A. J. Parker, Pond, Potter, President, Prindle, Prosser, Rathbun, Reynolds, Robertson, Rogers, Root, Roy, Rumsey, A. D. Russell, Schunaker, Seaver, Silvester, Sheldon, Sherman, Spencer, Stratton, Van Cott, Verplanck, Wakeman, Wales, Weed, Wickham, Williams- 114. Mr. CHESEBRO-I would like to inquire whether the motion made by the gentleman from Chautauqua [Mr: Barker], is an amendment to the motion of the gentleman from Westchester [Mr. Greeley]. The PRESIDENT-It is. Mr. SEYMOUR-A good deal of time has been occupied to day which would otherwise have been spent profitably in the committee, and there is a disposition to discuss some further proposition upon amendments which may be proposed, and I think that the time limited to twelve o'clock, will not give the time which is desirable. I therefore move three o'clock, for the purpose of giving the whole day to-morrow, that the committee may be in session, to this subject, and then when the committee shall rise and report to the Convention the report with the amendments which will be ready for consideration on Tlursday. Mr. LOEW -I think that it is about time that an end was put to this discussion. For more than two weeks we have listened to lengthy speeches on the suffrage question, and if the debate be continued for two weeks more, I do not think we will be any better able to decide the matter than we are at present. Every member of this Convention has doubtless made up his mind how lie is going to vote, and I do not think that anything that can be said by any one will cause him to change it. Nor do I believe that anry one who yet proposes to speak, has the remotest idea that any speech he may make, however able or eloquent it may be, will in the slighteAt degree affect the final result. Sir, the people are beginning to find fault. They have sent us here to do a great work, that of revising the fundamental law of the State, and, although we h:ve been in session some six or seven weeks, we blave not yet agreed on the first section. If we keep on at this rate, we will not get through during the present year. Sir, I for one am in favor of bringing this discussion to a close as speedily as possible; iut inasmuch as several members desire to oftr some very important amendments, I move aS' an aendment tlat we take final action on the i to-M ^w eving at 1 o'clock. The PRESIDENT-The chair will inform the gentleman from New York [Mr. Loew], that two amendments aie pending. Mr. LOEW-Thlat has been accepted. The PRESIDENT-The Chair does not understand the gentleman to accept the amendment. Mr. BARKER-I do accept the amendment of the gentleman from Rensselaer [Mr. M. I. Townsend]. Mr. LOEW-I move to-morrow evening at halfpast seven, in place of three o'clock. Mr BARKER-I accept that. Mr. WEEiD-Do I understand now that the latter portion of the resolution of the gentleman from Westchester [Mr. Greeley] is still in this resolution? The PRESIDENT-The Chair understands it makes one resolution. The question was put on the amendment offered by Mr. Barker, and was declared carried. Mr. A. J. PARKER-The time is now short during which these questions will be discussed in Committee of the Whole. The objection that was made to my amendment before, was that there might be an indefinite number of members that would avail themselves of the opportunity of speaking five minutes on each amendment. I propose, therefore, to limit it to two, inasmuch as all the amendments cannot now properly be discussed in the Committee of the Whole; there will not be time enough; it will be necessary that there should be some discussion of the questions, on the report being made when these amendments are offered, and I think it too much restriction to say one shall be heard for and one against each amendment, and he bo limited to five minutes. I propose, therefore, to insert after the word "reply:" " And two members may be heard for and against, each amendment, but no member shall be heard more than five minutes in such debate." The question was then put on the motion of Mr. Parker, which was declared carried. The question then recurred upon the original resolution, and it was declared adopted. Mr. McDONALD called for the consideration of thb resolution amending the rules, offered by him on Saturday. The SECRETARY proceeded to read the resolution: Resolved, That this Convention will go each day into Committee of the Whole on any general or special order pending, one hour after it convenes, unless that order of business is reached before that time Mr. McDONALD -The object, I think, is very easily seen, simply to get at the real business of the Convention within an hour after we meet, and not spend more than an hour in discussion with regard to the order of other matters. It is a rule adopted in both Houses of Congress. They have what they call a morning hour, and then they proceed, if there is any special order pending, and immediately go into Committee of the Whole one hour after the hour of meeting. Mr. DUGANNE —I offer a resolution as an amendment to that. The SECRETARY proceeded to read the reso. lution, as follows: Rsolved That onand a after Tuesday, July 30, I 453 the Convention will meet at 10 o'clock, A. M., Curtis], was not acted on and disposed of last and that it shall be its regular order of business, evening. to resoive into Committee of the Whole on any The CHAIRMAN -The Chair will inform the pending subject at 11 o'clock A. M., each day. gentleman from Fulton [Mr. Smith], that it having Mr. VER PLANCK- We have so little time appeared there was no quorum, that vote goes for left for the discussion of the important report of nothing. the Committee on Suffrage, tlat I ask whether it Mr. FRANCIS -The gentleman from Albany is best to takeilp and discuss these matters, which [Mr. Cassidy], in this discussion yesterday, can be heard just as well any other day. We announced himself in favor of submitting to have agreed to come out of committee to-morrow the people as a separate constitutional proposiat half-past seven. Therefore, not knowing the tion, the question of female suffrage, But he decourse I should take on this resolution, without dined to say whether he was in favor of or opposed intending any disrespect to the mover of it, I to the measure-lie would simply submit the quesmove that this whole subject do lie on the table. tion to the people, and no farther did he or would The question was then put on the motion of Mr. he commit himself. But upon the question Verplauck. of abolishing the property qualification upon Which was declared carried, the suffrage of colored citizens, the gentleMr. HALE called for the consideration of the man urges a separate submission, and as I resolution heretofore offered by him providing for understand him, sustains the " Constitution the appointment of a committee of seven to con- as it is" —in other words, he would make sider upon and report upon the mode of submis- the possession of property to the value of sion to the people, of the amendments to the Con- two hundred and fifty dollars, the test of a stitution that may beprepared by the Convention. black man's manhood. Now, I disagree with Mr. VEtRPLANCK-This is a resolution which lmy friend from Albany in. both his posiwill give rise to debate and I hope the Convention tions. I would, sir, put nothing in the Constiwill be allowed to go into Committee of the Whole, lution that I am not willing to support here and I move that this resolution lie on the table. and elsewhere, nor would I submit proposiThe question was put on the motion of Mr. tious to the people separately that I am opposed Verplanck. which was declared carried. to directly. We came here, sir, to make such Mr. CH:AMPLAIN moved to recommit the amendments of the Constitution as, in our report of the Committee on Suffrage, with mstruc- opinion, will improve the fundamental law, protious to amend by striking out section three and mote substantial reform, and advance the best insertitig the following: interests of the State. Why go beyond this line "SE(CTION 3. Laws shall be made for ascertain- ot duty, or, rather, outside of it, and make sepaing, whnll the citizen offers his vote at the elec- rate submission of questions that embody princition, by proper proofs, whether he is entitled to ples we are unwilling to support distinctly and the righlt of suffrage hereby established." unequivocally here? This, sir, it seems to me, The PRESIDEINT- Tle Chair does not deem would be a shirking of duty and responsibility. this motion admissible at this time. We were not sent here to ask the opinion of Mr. GREELEY -I move that this resolution others, but to submit our own-not in fragments do lie on the table. either, but as a symmetrical whole. Why submit Mr. SHERMAN -I rise to a point of order, the female suffrage question to the people sepathat the subject of the report of the Committee rately? "To obtain the popular expression dison Suffrage is not now before the Convention, and tinctly upon it," I am answered. Then why this resolution is not in order at this time. not make a separate submission of other quesThe PRESIDENT- -The Chair decides the tions as well-all other questions of proposed point of order is well taken. constitutional amendment? There is the quesMr. CHAMPLAIN-1 move, sir, that the reso- tion already suggested here of investing with lution lie on the table. the right of suffrage male citizens who have The resolution was laid on the table. attained the age of eighteen years. At that age Mr. HADLEY-I move that all uufinished military duty is exacted of them, and it is claimed orders lie on the table. that they should have the right to vote. Why The PRESIDENT-The Chair holds that mo- not have this question also separately submitted tion is not admissible. to the popular vote? Then, again, numbeis Mr. HADLEY-Then I move to lay the present of citizens-quite as many I think (though they order of business-being resolutions-oti the table. may not be so outspoken) as favor female sufThe question was put on the motion of Mr. frage -believe that the property qualiftHadley, and it was declared carried, cation, such as is now imposed upon The Convention again resolved itself into colored voters, ought to be made general. I do Committee of the Whole on the report of the Com- not, sir, sanction the principle as applied to any: mittee on the Right of Suffrage and the Qualifica- class of voters; yet, as it has its supporters, why tions to Hold Office; Mr. ALVORD, of Ouondaga, not submit the property test to the peo0pl in the chair. for a distinct vote thereon? Why thus subnit The CHAIRMAN announced the question to be female suffrage when opposed to it, or nonu-. on the amendment of the gentleman from Rich- mittal on the question as the gentleman fi:m mond [Mr. CurtisJ to the amendment of the gen- Albany is, and refuse a like submission of proptleman from Cayuga [Mr. C. 0. Dwight]. erty qualification for white voters as well as abla? Mr. SM1ITH - May I ask of the Chair if that The advantage of this latt propositin would amendment of the gentleman from Richmond [Mr. be uniformity and equality. It would be the 454 'consistent carrying out of the rule- What is hood for the one class than for the other. The sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander." just rule which the enlightenment of the age, For myself sir, I do not accept the sauce at all, the logic of events, the spirit ot our regeneranor do I propose to offer it to others, either as a ted republic, and the teachings of the best dish by itself or commingled with the rest as one. minds of the world enforce, is this: Equality That is to say, I cannot for one consent to pre- before the law; equal privileges to all citizens sent constitutional propositions to the people to at the ballot-box-or, as Jefferson expresses it: be voted on by them either separately or other- "Equal and exact justice to all,men of whatwise, that are opposed to my own conscien- ever state or persuasion, religious or political." tious convictions, and which my judgment con- Then the question may be asked, Mr. Chairdems as wrong. No one here would think of man, why withhold the right of suffrage from submitting to the popular vote the question women? I answer, because woman has her whether the Legislature should or should not be duties, her sphere of life-wonderful it is and required to pass laws restoring imprisonment for potent in its influences-and man has his in the debt, establishing the stocks and whipping-post, rougher wrestling with the world and its grosser and requiring the flaying of the person with cat- materialities. Let woman work out her mission o'nine-tails for even small crimes, as in the in the beauty of holiness, at the sacred family "good old days" of which some gentlemen altar and in the refinements of a purified society, speak so reverently, and which are so often re- and she will then most effectually wield the ferred to as furnishing infallible precedents for power that imparts virtue to manhood, integrity our, guide in governmental affairs for ever more. to political action, and justice to the adminisAnd why not submit this question to the people tration of government. As I respect woman, as well as the twin relic of barbarism born of as I appreciate her matchless graces, her African slavery, and a disgrace to Our day and age, loving, confiding, beautiful life, so would I -namely, the property qualification for colored protect her from the hurly-burly, the antagovoters?-a class proscription, a recognition of nisms and angry turmoils of political contests. the doctrine that, not worth in manhood, but We know what these contests are-how much $250 worth of property makes the colored man of bitter passion they develop, how ambition fit to vote, and the want of it the fellow of an moves in ways of trickery, and often downinferior race whom it would be dangerous to in- right fraud; how the freedom of speech is corporate in our body politic, as introducing an abused in the utterance of language we would element of political demoralization in our sys- not have our wives and daughters hear and betem of government, and as menacing society come familiar with. We know, moreover, that with the evils of miscegenation and all the hor. a vast majority of the true and lovable women rors of social equality of blacks with whitest of the State-the refined, the intelligent and When my friend and colleague from Rensselaer the good-do most earnestly reject this whole [Mr. Seymour] suggested this idea of social theory of so-called "women's rights," and their equality as the possible if not probable result of wish to be let alone should most certainly be manhood suffrage, the thought occurred to me respected. Polished in diction, compact and methodwhether the little barrier of two hundred and ical in construction, powerful in logic, beautiful in fifty dollars was all that no v protects the imagery, keen in satire, and wonderful in oraintegrity of our social system, and whether torical effect, the great speech of the gentleman we had not reason to fear and tremble from from Richmond [Mr. Curtis] in favor of extendthe increasing number of black men who are ing the right of suffrage to women, still failed to acquiring the requisite freehold that enables convince me of the desirability or justice of the them to vote, and so advance to social equality measure. The ready intuition and quick percepamongus? Why, sir, a full score or more of tines of the women themselves discover its imthese $250 black men cast their ballots for the propriety, and their private verdict at home, gentleman himself in our city [Troy] to increase where their power is, and where their love reigns his flattering home vote as candidate for delegate supreme, is overwhelming against the proposed at large to this Convention; and in view of the change that would expose them to the buffetings fact, I asked myself, is it possible my friend recog- of tlie roughest partisanship and contact with the nized these colored constituents as his social vilest elements of community. I yield to that equals, or is he concerned lest their presence and verdict as in accordance with the laws of nature vote at the polls may have contaminated society? and the decrees of God, rather than to the powerNo, no, Mr. Chairman, all the fine discourses fiul persuasions and captivating eloquence of my we have listened to here on this subject-all the friend from Richmond..So upon the amendrment historical precedents and existing policies of proposed by him I shall vote No. other nations set forth in language so polished, Mr. T. W. DWIGHT-In speaking on this and with adroitqess so keen, by the gentleman question, sir, I have not the advantages of the from Albany [Mr. Cassidy]. does not change or gentleman from Richmond [Mr. Curtis]. I have modify the practical question before us. We had no time to prepare myself with a written have. black men among us, and we know what argument, and my few and imperfect words must thy are. We know they are just as well qual- compare but feebly with the beautiful oration fed to vote as other classes who enjoy that in- which the gentleman delivered before us. But, estimble privilege; we know that $250 worth sir, I hope, subject as I am to this very great disi, propert0y adds to their qualifications no advantage, that the remarks I may make may not re tan fit ads to the qualifications of white holly be without truth, that I may be able to t- sms; th^i t isno more a certifieate of man- say somethg on this subject which may con 455 mend itself to the minds of the gentlemen who may hear me. Now, sir, as I understand the disposition of the majority of the members of this Colvention, they are determined on the one hand to concede to negroes the exercise of the elective franchise, and I believe that on the other hand they are of the opinion that the exercise of that franchise should n9t be conceded to women. They have, therefore, to travel a narrow, but yet, I believe, well-defined path, and it is their ditty to show some reason why on the one hand the elective franchise should be conceded to the one and why it should be denied to the other. Now, sir, before going farther on this question, it seems to me proper to restate what I believe to be the true grounds on which the whole theory of the elective franchise rests. I believe it can be shown, as I stated before in another connection, that it rests first on the nature of society, and that society itself is given to us by the will of God; and that. therefore, we have the right to perpetuate the existence of society. But we must not exercise this power or right arbitrarily. It is the duty of statesmanship to exercise the power given to us in some reasonable manner. Tlere are two reasonable grounds upon which we can refuse the elective franchise, one that of personal incapacity. and the other on the ground that the exercise of it-admitting personal capacity-will tend to the injury of the State. Now, sir, I do not choose to rest the refusal of this right to women on thiground of personal incapacity. I believe there are several requisites which on a former occasion I mentioned, and which are, in my judgment, necessary. intelligence, independence, integrity, interest, and( membership or identification with tlie mass of society. It has been said on this floor that wonlan does not have the interest that she ought to have in this class of questions. But it does not seem to me that is a serious objection. I believe that interest will come if she is permitted to vote. I believe that many women who would repudiate the franchise and desire not to exercise it will, if it is given to them, feel that they must exercise it. If they are driven to that, if it is given to them by society, it must be exercised. Therefore, I do not feel the pressure of that argument, but what I do feel the pressure of is, I believe it would be in. jurious to society. Before I go further, 1 wish to say a word in reference to the position of the honorableetl gentleman fro Richmond [Mr. Curtis]. He said that as each person in society had the right to life, liberty, and the other conceded rights, such person had a natural right to the means of defense of those conceded rights. Therefore, lie argued. that such person should have the elective franchise. But, sir, on that point I cannot agree with him. While I would concede that any person may have the right to exercise those means of defense which nature gives him, I do not concede that lie has the inherent right to exercise those means of defense that society gives him. Society gives hint the elective franchise, but at the same time it gives it to him, it dictates the terms on which it shall be exeroised, dictates them reasonably, I ad. mit, but still dictates them by saying they must be exercised in such a way as not to injure the State. We may, for illustration, state in regard to other departtuets the same thing. We say, for exam. pie, when a man exercises intellectual powersthan which none are more clearly his own-and produces a book, he has no right to publish that book or ask the aid of society in protecting him from infringement upon that publication, except upon the terms which society imposes. These, in our own country, are that after publishing it for a time exclusively lie shall ultimately give up the work to the public. So we might show the same thing by means of other illustrations; but the point which I wish to make is simply this, that man has an inherent right only to the means of defense which nature gives him, but when lie calls forth powers and the rights, which society provides, he must take these on the terms upon which society chooses to furnish them, and regulated, as I said, by reason. I now recur to my original position, that if one claims the elective franchise it must be claimed subject to those two great principles, that the person is not incapacitated personally for its exercise, and that such exercise would not cause any public danger. It seems to me that the great champion of this subject, John Stuart Mill, has thrown much unnecessary discredit on those who oppose the concession of the elective franchise to women, by saying that we class them with idiots and lunatics, and, therefore, that our action is derogatory to women. That argument seems to be fallacious, because I do not class them with idiots and lunatics on the ground of incapacity. I take two positions: on the first I exclude persons from the elective franchise on the,round of incapacity, and on the other I exclude them on the ground that the exercise of the franchise might endanger the State. I would place the exclusion of idiots and lunatics in the first class as being personally incapacitated, while I would place a refusal of the exercise of the elective franchise by women on entirely another ground-that of injury to the State. Therefore it is only confusing the mind to say that we place them in the same category, for I put them on entirely different grounds and reasons. What is this whole question of the elective franchise to women? If it were only the vote, if it were only as the gentleman from Richmond [Mr. Curtisl said, the dropping of a little piece of paper into a box it would be a very harmless thing, but that is not the whole of it. Those who act with the gentlealan from Richmond [Mr. Curtis], claim, sir, as we were told on this floor, by Mrs. Stanton and Miss Anthony, that when the elective franchise is given to women they will have other rights; they wil have the right to hold office, they will have the right to go into all the employments of life. One of the ladies said here the other day, that if woman had the elective franchise she would force her way into a law school that she named, so that young ladies should be entitled to attend that instit tion. That is not altogether a new idea, for in the old law school of Bologna there was a certain female professor, and I believe more than one, who lectured to crowds of males, but she too the precaution before lecturing to place a curtain before he ce r cfr fear the "benefit of her teachings would be impaired by that more subtle doctrine which Shakespare tlls us:i % drawn from woman's eyes. I respect that ancient lady, 456 sir, whose modest figure is somewhat veiled by the dimness of antiquity. Why, sir, if we admit this exercise of the franchise we are substantially told that the ladies shall wrangle at the bar, shout in the auction room, speculate at the Bourse, and be present at tile bickerings of the gold room. It is to such an entertainment as this, sir, that we are invited. There will be no door to office so concealed or so jealously guarded upon which there will not be the gentle but peremptory knock of womatn, and if there is any demur or hesitation in opening its we shall hear the quiet but decisive " why not?" so effectively urged by the gentlemana from Richmond [Mr. COlrtis]. We are asked who, is to judge in regard to this, who is to say that woman is to be excluded from the franchise? It is this Convention which is to determine. We are here acting under the delegated power of the people of the State of New York who have the elective franchise. They have conceded the power to us to decide this question. and we are now authorized to pass upon it, not arbitrarily, as I have said, but in the exercise of reason. Now, sir, I come to the true objections to the exercise of the elective franchise by women. I make only two of them: the first one is. that I fear its exercise will cause deterioration of the individual woman; and the second one is, that I fear tlat it will cause injury to the family. On these points I hesitate, and to hesitate is to refuse. In regard to tle deterioration of individual women I have this to say: I am one of those who believe that the Creator has made a distinction, a clear and marked distinction, between the duties of man and woman, and has assigned public duties to the man, anld private duties to tile woman. I believe in the distinction between the sexes, because I see it in nature, because I have studied it in the child. Tle distinction between the sexes are more marked as the child advances in years, until full manhood and womanhood are reached, when I seek to study such differences in their perfection. No person has marked this more clearly than the German poet Schiller, and I wish I had the literary ability of the gentleman from Richmond. so that I could turn the verses of Scliller into the melodies of English verse. He describes the distinctions in question by alternate verses. Thesdiffer in construction. When he is speaking of woman tile verse is all melody; when he is speaking of mall the stanzas change, and become rough and harsh, and thus he alternates from one verse to the other. He says, in the translation of another, which but inadequately expresses the vigor and beauty of the original: Ronored be woman. to her it is given To twie with our life the bright roses of heaven; 'Tti her's to be weaviln affection's sweet bond; Beneath the chaste veil she loves to retire, And nourish in sile.nce the holy fire That burns in a bosom faithful and fond. Far beyond truth's simple dwelling Man s wild spirit loves to sweep; And his heart is ever swelling, Tossed oiu passion's st,rmy deep. To thie distint good aspiring,::T re is still no rface for him; Through the very mtars, uintiring, t.' '.: p liufit dazhzling dream. But woman's mild glance, like a charm, overtakes hil, And from his visions of wandering wakes him, Warning him back to the present. to flee. In the mother's still cot her enjoyment Finds she in modest a d quiet employment; Faithful daughter of nature is she. Fierce is man's unending strife;He, beneath ambitions goad, Madly rushes on through life Without rest or fixed abode. Now creating-now undoingNo repose his wishes know; Like the Iydra's heads renewing, Still they wither, still they grow. But woman, contented, enjoys every hour; She plucks from each moment that passes, the flower, And fondly guards it with tender care; Her bounden duties are all her pleasures; Richer than man in memory's treasures, Roves she through Poesy's endless sphere. Under mans despotic sway, "'Might makes right." is still the word; Persia's monarch must obey, Silenced by th." Scythian sword. Self conflicting passion wages In his breast a hateful w;ar; While hoarse discord rules and rages, Modesty is seen no more. But woman, with soft, persuasive power, When in her turn, she rules the hour, Quenches the fires that burn to.,destroy; Teaches the powers, forever c(ntending, In peace and harmony now to be blendng — Old foes to be mingling in love and joy; Thus he marks in his verse tho inherent and peculiar distinction between man and the woman, as no one could have done but a poet, with tho true insight of Schiller. What I fear is, that if the elective franchise is conceded to woman, as well as the ability to hold office and fill all the employments )f life. this natural and clear distinction of duties will, in a measure, be overborne. In time, woman might deteriorate, be less perfect, and the progress of civilization be il a measure arrested. I do not exclude woman from the franchise for any reason except my earnest and deep regard for her, and my strong desire to do nothing which will tend to her injury. The fears which I have expressed may not be justified; it is impossible to decide in advance. The experiment may prove successful in some state of society different from our own. The State of New York is, in my opinion, not the place to make the trial of so dangerous an experiinent. Rather let it be tried, if it must be, in some remote State of the Union, where there is more simplicity of manner, less luxury, and where a failure would not prove so completely disastrous. Whenever I shall clearly see that the exercise of the franchise does not injuriously affect female character, I shall no longer oppose it on this ground. But at present my better judgment is adverse to the concession. I would like to dwell upon this question more at length, but I am admonished that my time is rapidly passing, and I must proceed to the next point, injury to the family.' I wish to say a. word in regard to the original institution of the family, and in its relation to society. That subject has been very thorolughly studied aud examined by a recent writer, Dr. Maine, who has written a well-knowu work which has placed him high among the philosophers and students of ancient law. le has sfhown us in that masterly work 457 the origin of society. He has treated the subject historically, and shows that the origin of society depends upon the aggregations of families; that the family was the unit in ancient society, as the individual is the unit in society to-day, that from families the aggregation finally came to tribes and from tribes to nations. That each one of those families was a corporation in itself. So that the intercourse between ancient families was like the intercourse between corporations and little sovereignties. As society was in that condition the father had absolute power over the children, the husband had absolute power over the wife, for the reason that tile wife was considered, under the ancient law, as a daughter of the family and therefore the father [paterfamilias] had control not only over the children but over the wife. But by a fiction of the Roman law it came to be established that the wife was not to be regarded truly as a wife, she was simply "deposited" by or as we say there was a bailment by the relatives of the wife to the husband, the consequence of which was that the husband lost his control over the wife and it remained with her relatives, who practically did not exercise it. Under the later Roman laws she thus became absolutely independent While affairs were in that condition and the wite had thus became emancipated from the husband by a fiction of the Roman law, christianity came. 'What did christianity seek to do? Paying no attention to the mere physical control which the husband anciently had over the wife, it sought to reinstate the moral control of the marriage relation. We find therefore the teachings of christianity in direct opposition to the independence which the wife gained by the Roman law prevailing at the time in which christianity came into the earth. and therefore it would be, this author tells us, in direct opposition to this spirit of christianity that we should give the woman absolute personal freedom. Let me read a passage from this author, and I have but to say that no writer stands higher as authority on tllis subject than he, for no man has studied ancient law more thoroughly and more in the spirit of philosophy. "No society which preserves any tincture of Christian institution is likely to restore to married women the personal liberty conferred on them by the middle Roman law." After Christianity had thus laid down its priuciples, the canon law came. In the course of the progress of the church, canon law took up this subject of the rights of married women. What did it do? It established the disabilities of married women to hold property. That is derived from the church law, from the canon law. The advocates of the rights of married women endeavor to confuse these two points and say that because you gave married women proprietary rights, therefore you must necessarily make them absolutely free. But there is a clear difference between the two cases. This author goes on to say: "But the proprietary disabilities of married females stand on quite a different basis from their personal incapacities, and it is by the tendency of their dctrines to keep alive and consolidate tile former. that the expositors of the canon law have deeply inired civilization." 58 We may remove these proprietary disabilities, as has been done in New York and elsewhere; we may heal the wound which civilization has sustained by reason of the denial to married women of the'rights to hold their property separate and apart from that of their husbands, and yet inflexibly maintain the public official incapacities of woman. It is the family as organized by christianity which I seek to uphold. I have no low idea of the inferiority of woman to man. I assert her equality, and, in some respects her superiority. I must insist, however, that she is inherently and essentially different. Her part in the family is allotted to her by reason of an irreversible law. The old society has gone with its artificial arrangements, its family sovereignties, its corporate fictions. but in the moder family lies hidden, as truly as in the ancient, the germ of the State. By it are trained the citizens who sustain soeiety; without its reproductive power social life would be feeble, if not extinct. The part which woman sustains in it is vital; the functions which she fulfils cannot be carried on by man. I have no time to argue this point; scarcely a moment in which to state it. I fear that the suffrage and its accompaniments would take away woman from her noble and necessary duties in the family; if it would not do that, that her interest would be divided or lessened, her power as the great educator in the famity would be diminished if not gone. Such a result would be deprecated not only by the philanthropists, but by the statesmen. It may be that this result would not follow; to a certain extent the effect of suffrage is a matter of conjecture. The consequences which I have depicted are, however, possible and natural; they would be expected in the ordinary course of events. It would be of no advantage to open to woman the avenues to office and general employments unless she sought to use them; and in that case experience teaches us that her refinement, delicacy and modesty would suffer, and an undivided attention to family affairs could not be maintained. I am aware that many women of intellect murmur at the monotony of life in the family. Its sameness begets weariness and perhaps inspires disgust. They, as well as we, long for the excitements of the rostrum and for a place in the public councils. They regard their life as worthless, because it is unpretending and quiet; they cannot bear to sustain "the sacred primal sorrow of their sex." To such as these [ commend the beautiful fable of Jean Paul, who tells us that the leaves once boasted over the blossoms, because while the latter fell in the early spring time, they remained growing thicker and stronger, till at the end of the summer they were swept away by the storm. But the answer of the blossoms was we remained till our work was done; without us there had been no fruits, which it was only your functions to shade and support. As the leaves have no cause to boast over the blossoms, so man has no cause to boaSt over the woman; each has a distinct and glorious work to do, and in the name of society and christianity let them do itit with gladness and singleness of heart. I have spoken in this connection only of married women. The argument (458 however, includes unmarried, as iti w.ould be imt (qulestion still recurs, is there any good reason for possible in practice to draw a distinction between 'the exclusion from the suffrage, and the question them, as nearly allare destined at some time to of property has nothing to do with the exercise have control or influence in the tamily. It may be of the franchise. If it depended upon that, life said that after all, woman, though she has the would be subordinate "to meat, and the body to suffrage, may not hold office and fill general em- raiment." No person who claims the suffrage ployments, and thatall these fears are unfounded. need ever rest his claims on the ground of the The answer is that they probably will, and that payment of taxes. Such payment may tend to the tenency of the suffrage is in that directioni show that he has one or more of the qualifications There would be no call for it except. on that of a voter, such as interest in society, or identifiground, and all its advocates in this country, as cation with it. but nothing more. He may be far as I know, connect with. the demand for suf- taxed, and still be properly excluded, if the other frage the claim to hold office and the like. The grounds of suffrage are absent. This notion of friends of female suffrage claim it on these the connection between taxation and representagrounds: that the denial of it is degrading; that tion is a bequest of the middle ages, and does not its possession would educate women in political belong to the American system, which puts the duties and thus make them more worthy corn- 'suffrage upon permanent grounds or reason, and panions of intelligent men; that the ballot would not on those which are fluctuating and arbitrary. protect woman in her person and property; that Finally, woman wants the ballot to give her occutaxation and representation should go together, pation and remunerative wages. I mourn that and that she would thus be secured better wages, her avenues to employment are so few, and the as well as opportunities for employment. They wages are so unremunerative. But can this evil also insist that her presence at theelections would be remedied by legislation? Will not wages and be of use to the State in the improvement of the employment follow the great law of supoly and laws. In regard to the first of these claims, I demand? The true friends of woman are those have already made some remarks. There is no who invite her to a larger and broader style of degradation because the objects for which the education; who ask her to submit to the exclusion is made is protection to woman and the training and self-sacrifice necessary to fit her for State. aIn respect to the second, I admit that it high employment. The way to eminence is a has force. It were well that women were ac- thorny road, alike for men and women, and although quainted with political affairs. In this way she it is unrjust and illiberal to exclude her from many could exercise a most effective influence without employments which she might worthily fill. yet it is the ballot. It may, perhaps, be doubted whether true that remunerative occupations are quite abundthe mere gift of the suffrage has much effect ant for those who possess a high degree of skill. in that direction. Political education depends The great difficulty at the present moment is the on other causes. But, giving its fullest force superabundance of unskilled labor, wich ofnecesto the argument, I would not sacrifice other sity commands a low price. This price does not and more positive advantages to gain this depend on the fact that the employee is a woman, single good. I would not produce an evil effect but rather on the ground that the labor market is upon society in order to educate women in political overstocked by persons of a low degree of skill. affairs. To the claim that the ballot would pro- Women who are eminent in song or tragedy, or tect woman in her person and property, I reply literary composition, are most liberally paid. that it is not needed here for that purpose. I Women who are untrained and unskilled, cannot marvel when I read John Stuart Mill's argument evade the inexorable law, that in the long run a in the House of Commons to perceive that he commodity will sell for no more than it is worth. advocates the ballots to protect women from the If they are permitted to compete with men in all personal abuse of brutal husbands. I unhesi- the employments of life, the laws of trade and tatingly assert that it cannot be asked for here on' commerce would demand that they must submit any such ground. I know not how, if woman to the same training as men, and attain the same made all the laws, she could protect herself any mechanical excellence to command the same wages. more fully than she is guarded at present. The Why not submit to that training now? It Legislature are swift to grant her proprietary rights may be said that many cannot do that? in the most full and ample manner. Not a year But would the ballot change the matter. passes Without some advance in that direction. I believe not. We are beginning to expect I shrewdly suspect that if the women had the too much of the suffrage and of legislation, and power, they would relieve us from some of the in time we shall be undeceived. If the'disiosition "disabilities" under which we now labor. But could be generally aroused in the female hifind to the women want a guaranty that these privileges submit to the necessary labor, trade itself would shall coutinue. They can have no better guaranty demand that her skill should not remain unloemthan the advancing civilization of- the day, which l 'yed. I. however; hope that public opinion will makes a.rerogade step impossible. Without this, firce men to abandon some occupations for whlich witfha society returning toward baarrismt the they are unfitted, and to which women are specially ballot in woman's hands would be no protection. adapted. Finally, the suffrage is claimed on the But it is said that taxation and representation. general ground that the participation of women in shoul g together, and if a woman is taxed she public afairs would, be advantageous to the State. oughtito vote. This i8 but a futile argument. It; This again is urely matter of conjecture I should is:instatly irefted,by asking, Why? All the think such a resulti quite doubtful. It would ap a pa ociety may own property, butl eartome that with her more impulsive nature thac doesa.tgive them th- to t The there would be less steadiness of movement in 459 thn government, and frequent and violent changes of policy. Politics, I apprehend, would tend to the impracticable, and as it is eminently a practical science, and often depends upon a balancing of probabilities, I fear that it would retrograde rather than advance. All this might happen with the -utmost good intention on the part of the female voters. It is possible that there would be more purity of administration, but that is not clear; for, in many instances, the artful, scherning and unprincipled would hold the reins of power. It is said that queens often rule well, but this remark is not quite satisfactory, as in some, if not all, of the instances named, other influences have had a controlling effect on the admninistration of the government. On the whole, I do not see sufficient reasons why tle existing order of thiigs should be disturbed, and wom* admitted to the elective franchise. I only regret that the brief period allowed to me prevents a more extended discussion of the subject. Mr. DALY-Mr. Chairman, [ have a few observations to make upon this particular branch of the subject, and my remarks will be chiefly confined to the argument of the eloquent gentleman from Richmond [Mr. Curtis], for the reason that I was not present yesterday or yesterday evening during the continuance of the debate. Tile gentleman front Richmond [Mr. Curtis], as I understood lim, did not claim that suffrage was a natural right. But. assuming it to be a political privilege, he insists that women are entitled to the free exercise of it, because upon them are imposed the duties of government. "I deny," he said, "that those who have the suffrage have the right to exclude woman from that power and influence which she would exercise by the use of it for her own protection. "When," he asks, "was it established or ordained that man was to be the representative of woman in government? When was that choice made?" I answer, it was made by her Creator when He established the natural distinction which exists between the two sexes It was made when that act took place which is recorded in these words in the sacred volumne: "And the rib which the Lord God had taken from man, made he a woman and brought her unto the man;" and if the gentleman should not, likes ome of the advocates of this doctrine, attach much weight to this passage in Genesis, then I answer it has been ordained, with a few rude exceptions, by the practice hitherto of all mankind, of all nations great or small, of all religions, christian or pagan, of all societies, savage or civilized, which is the highest evidence of an ordained and universa law that can be addressed to the human reason. The gentleman says that because a thing has existed hitherto, that is no reason why it should continue to exist. This may be very true Mr. Chairman, with regard to the peculiar laws. Usages, or customs of any one particular people, but when he asks us to Change a universal law that has prevailed in all quarters of the globe, and so far as we know, from the beginning of society, the reasons must be irresistible which warrant such a change, and I propose breifly to consider those which he has presented. His first and general reason is that government is maintained over woman without her known or expressed consent, as she has no participation in it; and he refers to the fallacious maxim in the Declaration of Independence. that " all governments derive their just powers from the consent of the governed." I have one answer to this objection. The gentleman and myself were among those who agreed in the heginning- that the government of the United States was justified in putting down the rebellion, and we lent our best efforts to the accomplishment of that work. If this fallacious maxim of the Declaration of Independence is true, in what position does he and I stand? Did not the Southern States, by the exercise of the franchise and through representative conventions, every one of them, vote themselves out of the Union? Relying on tljis doctrine, that the just powers of government are derived from the consent of the governed, did they not deliberately repudiate the government of the United States and establish a government for themselves and with a unanimity unexampled in the history of civil war did they not wage a bloody struggle for four years to maintain it. What was our answer to their doctrine? That government when once established is an integral thing, to part of which can be severed unless by successtul revolution, and that if they had the right to attempt that, we had an equal right to prevent it. I cite this, the most memorable instance of modern times, to show that government may be rightfully and justly maintained without the consent of those who are governed. The gentleman says that suffrage is necessary for woman's security and protection. I answer that she has a security and protection in the tenderness which the father feels for the daughter, in the affection which the husband bears toward the woman he has selected tor his companion in life, and in that deep-seated teeling which every man,.who is a man, feels for the mother who bore him. She has in this a security higher than all human laws. Her interests, be she daughter, wife or mother, are so inseparably interwoven with that of man's, that in guarding her interests he but guards his own. The gentleman tells us that it is a mere assumption,. that the interest and affection of men in women will lead them to legislate wisely and justly for women. It is, he says, the old appeal in favor of power, this dependence upon the affections of man toward woman. It is old, sir, very old, as old as human nature, and will continue in all future time, unless human nature is changed. The gentleman is a poet, and I will take the liberty of quoting the utterance of the greatest of living poets, Tennyson, on that subject: "The woman's cause is man's, they rise or sink Together, dwarfed or god-like, bond or free, 3Not like to like, but like in difference. Yet in the long years liker must they grow; He gains in sweetness and in moral height, She mental breadth, nor fail in childward care, Nor lose the child-like in the larger mind, Till at the last she sat herself to man, Like perfect music unto noble words." The gentleman tells us, Mr. Chairman, that men ar not pure enough to govern women. and that they are not governed rightfully. Of what do they complain? Have they not, tat lea in this Statle, a respets proprty, all that men have?* Are tey not man's soial equal? If to the man is allotted, as 460 more appropriate to his nature, the important duties that are connected with the management of the State, and the defense of it when in peril, to woman is oonfided the no less important duties that are oonuected with the development of.the family. God has made them co-equal, Mr. Chairman, but he has made them differeut; different physically and intellectually. I say intellectually, for women have not been prominent in the higher achievements of the human intellect. No great discovery in the natural sciences ever has been made by woman; there have been no female Galileos, Keplers or Newtons. They have reached some distinction in the imitative arts and as musicians, but no woman has been a great musical composer, or a dlstinguished mathematician, and I am informed by a gentleman of the Convention that no woman's name is found to be recorded in the patent office as an inventor. This does not argue that sihe is inferior, but that she is different, for in other intellectual qualities and in her high moral purity she is superior to man. She is more -acute. Her power lies not in deliberation, but in instantaneous perception. God has given her for her defense an intuitive knowledge of character, and she has a natural talent for intrigue. She is man's master in the knowledge of all the arts by which power and influence are exercised over him, while she is herself, at the same time, the slave of her affections. She differs from man physically because there are many avocations to which man is adapted from his coarser and stronger nature and for which women are unfitted by reason of their more delicate organization. The gentleman speaks of this doctrine of the exclusion of woman as a remnant of the middle ages. It is, sir. And allow me to say that it is to the feudal ages that we are especially indebted for the causes that led to the elevation of woman. To the home feeling engendered in the feudal castle, to the romantic institutions of chivalry, to the sentiments that prevailed in respect to woman's purity and chastity, and to the spiritualizing influence of christianity, we owe it that women were t aised in the middle ages to a rank they had never occupied among the most advanced nations of antiquity. If we want to know what the condition of woman was in antiquity, we have only to look at the customs of the refined Athenians, of loaning their wives for short periods to their friends, as an act of friendship, and if, under the Roman Empire, we desire to know the position of woman, we may read it in the prurinet pages of Juvenal,which invokes our astonishmnent that human society could have existed in such a stato of festering corruption. The Saxons, a rude and coarse people, admitted women to a full participation in political privileges. and they sat with men in the general national council or wittenagemote. The more refined, and cultivated Normans restored woman to her true position-the real sphere of her influence-which she has since continuled to occupy,as the co-worker and companion of man, in the advancement and civilization of the race. The gentleman says: "Should not a refined and cultivated woman be enttled to vote as well as the low pohitical lassettliat now exercise the suffrage?' I ask, Mr. Caimiwan, are there no low classes of women? To adit women to vote would widen the area of the suffrage; but it would Dot change very materially the moral elements of which it is composed. As my time is short, I will hurry to a last observation, which to my mind is conclusive on thia subject, and that is that the women of this State do not want this change, and I submit this proof of it. Miss Anthony, iu an official report, made recently to a convention assembled at Brooklyn, laments that so little interest was taken in the subject that she could not get "more than six live women and men "-I use her own language - to interest themselves in the movement to influence this Convention. If that is the result of her labors, with her talents and those of her associates, we may infer that tile women of this State have too much good sense and too thorough an appreciation of their true position and present influ. ence to dsire to plunge into politics with its publicity, passions and corrupting influences. I claim the attention of the committee for one rminute longer -upon another subject; simply to correct some matters of fact in respect to the pauper vote of New York. It will be remeru, bered that the gentleman from Rensselaer [Mr. M. I. Townsend] computed the pauper vote of the city of New York to be fifteen thousand annually, Including those who are inmates of the almshouse and those who receive out-door relief. These, Mr. Chairman, are the facts. I take them from the last year's report of the Commissioners of Charities and Corrections, I select from the report the monthly statement ending on Oct. 6, 1866, that being the' nearest month to the election in that vear. There were on that day in the almshouse of the city of New York 554 men, 501 women, 67 girls and 75 boys, making in all 1187, and out-door relief was administered during that mouth to 811 families. With regard to this out-door relief, which consists of the small pittance of fifty cents a week, it is rarely, if ever, given to mnn, but almost exclusively to poor widows with small children; and with regard to the 554 men in the almshouse, they are not all citizens and the bulk of them are so infirm and decrepid, that in my judgment, if that be a fair estimate of them in ordinary periods, and it seems to be so for a period or seven years, not more than 100 would be able to leave the almshouse for the purpose of voting. I beg leave to state also, Mr. Clairman, that tile gentleman from Westchester [Mr. Greeley] was right and I was wrong, il regard to the particular date of the occasion to which he referred, in which paupers were used in a Congressional election-it was in 1846, not in 1842. That, however, was twenty years ago. 0 Notlhilg of the kind has occurred since, and as evidence of it I beg leave to send up to the Secretary, and to request him to read a communication on this subject from the commissioners of chtarities and corrections in the city of New York, showing that no pauper has voted in that city for many years. I have only one more statement to make, and that is in answer to a question of the gentleman from Chautauqua [Mr. Barker] in regard to the increase of naturalization in New York at the last election. I do not know that tlie increase was as great as he states-equal to the three preceding years —but it was very large, and the 461 reason was this: under the law passed by the eg- of man. If society met thle highest ideal of per. islature. all naturalized citizens were required fection, no laws or rules would be necessary. o produce their rapers, and minors who But we are not living in that age of harmony under the act of Congress of 1902 were natural- when the lion and lamb shall lie down together Ized by the naturalization of their parents, were and the lion eat straw like an ox, with a little child required to produce their father's certificates. In to lead them, but we, as all our ancestors, are a large nuber of cases this was impossible, and controlled by sterner necessities. The prime or the parties had to be naturalized over again. In first necessities of government are exceedingly addition to this, by an act of Congress, all men simple: 1. Laws or rules. 2. An executive or who had served one year in the war were entitled power lodged somewhere for their enforcement. to naturalization; and it may be gratifying to this 3. Judges or persons to determine as to tle Convention to know, that the number of alien true iftent and meaning, as well as the, soldiers who were naturalized during that period application of the laws. This brings us in my court were very great. I should think the to the point who shall determine as to alien soldiers and minors who were thus natural- who shall make the laws, or what they may ized were very nearly equal to one half of all who or shall be, by whom and in what manner enforced. presented themselves. These two causes were the Shall or can the laws be made by the whole chief ones in making the naturalization so much body politic-men, women and children? It larger than in any of the years preceding. is impossible. Therefore. it becomes necessary to The SECRETARY then proceeded to read the choose or select out from among the people document referred to by Mr. Daly, in words as persons to represent or to be in their place and follows: stead, to make, to adjudge, to execute. The ques. tion is, who shall have and exercise that right of DEPARTMENTT OP PUBLIC CHARITIES AND CORRECTION, choie? By common and oft repeated consent, No. 1 Bond street, near Broadway, B common and oft repeated consent, NEW YORK, July 15,1867. express and implied, the adult men of the State IITn. Charles P. Daly: have exercised this privilege. I ask if there is Sir - The undersigned. on behalf and by any reason why this rule should be changed? instruction of the commissioners of public char- Does the experience of the past prove that this ities, respectfully deny the allegations understood privilege has been unwisely exercised. I affirm to have been made, that the inmates of the alms- as a whole, the privilege has been wisely used. houses of the city of New York, by their author- The laws have been equal and equitable, the ity, have been permitted to vote at public elec- adjudication has been wise and just, the execution tions. moderate and salutary. No man, woman cr child In no instance have paupers voted to the knowl- can stand before us and successfully controvert edge of the board, nor has it consented to the this affirmation. If such is the fact, is it wise or discharge of paupers from the almshouse for such expedient to make any change in these provisions purpose by them, collectively or individually; but, i regard to woman? The reason and good onthe contrary, they have forbidden the warden sense of this Convention answers no. And to dismiss or grant permits for leave on the eve this decision will have the force and power of election. that all decisions have which are founded in reason, Very respectfully, your obedient servant, common sense and the highest expediency, which JAS B. NICHOLSON President. alone gives security, sanction and rest. The demonstrations of experience, the wisdom that Mr. VAN CAMPEN- Mr. Chairman, I had grows out of experience, the history of the past - designed to make some remarks on the amend- these are our land marks-these are theconsiderament of the gentleman from Richmond [Mr. Curtis] tions which should influence us. It may be and therefore made some preparations in reference expedient to notice some of the incidental questhereto, but under the twenty minute rule of the tions growing out of this question, though not Convention I have been obliged to change the pertinent to the amendment of the gentleman order in which I desired to present that question. from Richmond [Mr. Curtis]. I refer to I shall therefore, content myself with merely stat- some of the social evils under which ing some questions to this Convention. It is women are laboring, and to the evils very well known that many questions are answered they propose to remove and remedy. I by merely having a clear statement of the case, cannot pass without referring to them, and especithat many questions, simple enough of solution. ally in regard to the inmates of these terrible dens are found difficult by many to solve by reason in all the cities. They say that by virtue of the of the manner in which the questions are stated. law, by virtue of unfair discriminations by I, therefore, with the indulgence of the committee, the male population of the State, these women will submit a few ideas in regard to this question. are forced into these dens. The Rev. Mr. In the first place, the science of government is the May says is it literally impossible for those highest of all sciences, because it secures the women to make a living without submitting to benefit of all other sciences. Its necessity is prostitution. Mr. Chairman, in the name of the found in the inherent natural qualities and women I protest against such a libel. It is a false. essential characteristics of man. Growing out hood. Sir, the voice that is raised here must * of these it becomes an indispensable and imper- resound upon all the hills and valleys of the State. ative necessity to establish governments, will venture to say that this difficulty is to:i employing such agencies, with such adequate and overcome in another way. The people of the necessary powers, as will provide for the free State ought to recognize this state of sociy, ecure and peaceful enjoyment of all the rights that if the women were properly edaOate4, 462 if they were taught to be useful and were amendments in the Constitution itself. Sir, it taught to remember that the place of woman has been said by two gentlemen of this body, is at home, that the domestic relations, the one from Onondaga, and I believe the gentle. family relations which God has so wisely ordained man from Rensselaer [Mr. M. I. Townsend], for her sphere in which she must walk, if they that this Convention will embody the negro suf. were taught the duties that grow out of these frage provision in the body of the Constitution it. relations, to be useful, and not to soar too high, self. Sir, the word "will" is but another word but gently to walk in the paths of usefulness, if for "SHALL;" and in a deliberative body like this they were taught lessons in the kitchen, from the although the power is supreme on the part of tie cellar to the garret, if they were taught and majority to do what they will, I hope, sir, upsc impressed with the neeessity of being useful, then more mature judgment, they will deem it unwise,the difficulty would be reached and removed.' But, to carry out that purpose. Sir, I live in one of instead of that, they are taught to neglect and the smallest counties in the State. My business il overlook these things, and to seek to be appre- in the great commercial emporium of the State. I ciated, to be petted and fondled, and not to lead see, as every gentleman in that great city sees, enor. useful lives. In the name of the women of this mous evils growing out of the administration of the State, I protest against such an assumption, and I government. I see abuses which have been fixed refer the gentleman back to them if the statement I there by the Legislature; I see there, indeed, the make in regard to the evil and remedy is not true. Legislature itself, in the exercise of excessive Therefore we must speak out here, so that the legislative power for the city of New York, and I women of the State may not be deceived, that they desire that such amendments may be submitted to may not be misled by not understanding this the Constitution as will enable the people there, question, so that the influences of this debate shall and everywhere, to act in reference to these not be lost upon our constituency, and upon the abuses. I desire to secure their reformation, homes which we represent, and the families whose without bringing in any questions connected with interests are committed to our care. colored suffrage. I know that there are thouMr. E. BROOKS-Under the rigid rule which has sands-I do not know it of my own knowledge, been laid down by the Convention limiting the but it is a subject of observation from what I discussion to twenty minutes, it is impossible have read, and from what I hear-in the dominant either to deliberate with propriety upon the amend- party of this State, who do not mean to vote for ment which has been introduced by my-colleague colored suffrage, and if you insist upon attaching from Richmond [Mr. Curtis], or upon the main and this provision to the Constitution, you endanger material question which is before this Convention not only it, but all the material improvements and in regard to colored suffrage. Sir, we were met amendments which may be incorporated into the here, some six or eight weeks ago, with the inti- body of the Constitution itself. mation from the author of this report, and from Mr. McDONALD — I rise to a point of order other gentlemen (a most unjust intimation I re- that the question of separate submission is out of gard it) that there was a disposition on the part order, not being before the Convention, having of the minority of this Convention to forego all been passed upon, and on account of the adoption action upon the Constitution itself, or, in other of the resolution proposed by Mr. Graves. words, they were opposed to any material amend- The CHAIRMAN-The Chair is of the opioion ments to the Constitution. Sir, I was one of those that the gentleman from Richmond [Mr. E. Brooks] who were opposed to calling a Convention for the is proceeding in order. amendment of the Constitution. I regarded Mr. E. BROOKS-Sir, I hope whenthe gentleman the time as unsuited, and I believed the pub- has had a little more experience than he now has lie mind to be in that disturbed state, that in regard to legislative bodies, he will know that disqualified it to enter into the consideration of there is something of permission and something the great questions growing out of a new Constitu- of acquiesence in the discussion of questions tion, or to consider such amendments to the exist- in Committee of the Whole, which are not ing Constitution as would enable us to deliber- common when the question is before the Conate with becoming judgment upon so important a vention. Otherwise, no opportunity would be afsubject. But the Convention having been called, forded to gentlemen to deliberate upon any of these I wish to say here for myself, and I believe for questions in a proper and becoming manner. every member of the minority, that there was, and Mr. HUTCHINS-Will the gentleman allow there is, a disposition so to amend the existing me to ask him a question? Constitution, as will make it acceptable to the Mr. E. BROOKS-If it is not tobe taken out of great body of the people-so to amend it as the my time, certainly; if it is, no. I will answer all result will be a great improvement upon the Con- questions if the time lost in answering them is stituion as it exists. Sir, this is my purpose. not taken out of my time. And It is for this more perhaps than for any- The CHAIRMAN - The Chair is of the opinion thing else, that I have regretted to see on the that it will have to come out of the gentleman's part f the majority of this body a purpose so to time. attah a gret provision-the provision, perhaps, Mr. E. BROOKS-Now, Mr. Chairman, the ques for which the CUnvention was convened-tq, the tion the gentleman wanted to put to me, is whethe boy of the Constitution-I mean, of course, I speak for the democratic party. No, sir, tht which rela to c red suffrage, a pur. speak for myself, and no one else. I am not so:0^ eso o delibeate, and so to detid e upon alsuming asto speak for that party, or any large thoef aetiit aa will probably prevent the peo. number conected with it. I say I desire to ha pl;fri votiag ef upn ther and greatthis O outitution improved and adopted, and in 463 stead of being cowardly, as has been suggested I do not wish to see a proposition, like this of by various gentlemen on this floor, I urge that this colored suffrage, harnessed like Mazeppa, to his question be presented upon its own merits; it horse, for, while you overthrow the horse, you seems to me that if there is any cowardice in it, it will at the same time do the greatest injury, and is on the part of those gentlemen who refuse to inflict terrible suffering upon the rider himself. unfold their banner to the breeze, who in the State The question of suffrage is one of great pr.ctical are in the majority, who can act independently in importance, I admit. It may be idle here to disthis case; who have made it the shibboleth of their cuss it. Gentlemen may have made uptheir minds faith and who should be ready to stand or fall (as the gentleman who interrupted me did) that by it. Let it be presented in that aspect to the the time has come when it is not proper to discuss people and let them vote yea or nay upon it. this question of separate submission. But, sir, That is my judgment as to what is best to be done in virtue of its importance, and the greater interest: to secure colored suffrage in this State to the of other questions which remain behind, I have negro. Now, sir, we hope to have improve- presented it for your consideration. I do not pro. meuts in the administration of the canals, and we pose to discuss the negro question at all, philosoph. hope for improvements in the administration of ically, physiologically, embryologically, nor in any the finances of the State, and when we speak of other way. I have my mind made up upon that the administration of the finances of the State question. It differs entirely from the views of the of New York, we speak for a great body of the gentleman from Rensselaer [Mr. M. I. Townsend], people of the United States, for about one fifth-of and perhaps from that of the great body of the the entire taxes of this Government are imposed members of this Convention. My mind is this, in upon the people of the State of New York. Sir, brief, that as you cannot make one hair white or when the Federal government collects in one one hair black by any legislative decree, or by any year five hundred and eighty millions of Fed- legislation, so you cannot change the relations eral revenue from the people of the United which exist between the white race and the States-a tax one hundred millions beyond all black. You cannot change them; you. may do that is imposed by the government of Great something for their education, and you may n a Britain upon the people of Great Britain, and measure make them better members of society,and when it imposes a tax of one hundred and so far as this canbe done, I not only bid you' ninety millions more than all the taxes imposed " God speed " in the effort, but am willing to coupon the people of France by the government of operate with any gentleman in the Convention or France; and when you, Mr. Chairman, will re- out of it in attaining that most desirable end. So member that the property capable of taxation by long as the Almighty has made this great difference the government of Great Britain is equal to forty between the races, so long as he has made the thousand millions of dollars, and in France equal hand of the black man one twelfth of to thirty-six thousand millions of tollars, and that an inch longer, and one tenth broader, in tile United States these means are reduced to and his foot one-tenth longer and onethe small amount of sixteen thousand millions of ninth broader, so long as he has made his forearm dollars, for all real and personal property, you will shorter, and every muscle and limb different, from behold in this extraordinary lact, the oppressive the knee to the ankle, so long as he has made that system of taxation imposed upon the people of broad difference between the head of the white and the United States. With this small comparative black man, as ninety-seven cubic inches to sixtyproperty we endure, jas I have said, a tax equal six cubic inches -so long will these differences in its federal demands to five hundred and eighty remain a fixed law of nature. They are not to millions of dollars, with no corresponding amount be changed by legislation; they are not to be. in the governments I'have named. Sixteen thou- changed in this Convention, and, according to my sand articles are taxed by the federal government, idea, however great an error it may be, it is, with which every man feels in all he eats, and drinks, me at least, an honest conviction, that all such and wears, and consumes, which is a part of legislation on behalf of the black race, so far as it himself, and with but eighty-two articles taxed relates to the question of suffrage, tends rather to in Great Britain. And this, sir, is one injure than to improve them. Sir, every fair man of the questions which addresses itself to every sees that the franchise must be followed member of the Convention as well as to those by other great privileges. It must be followed who have charge of our great question of internal by the right to hold office. Black men must improvements. I wish to see the finances of this fill your jury-boxes; they must become your State improved; I wish to see the city govern- school teachers; they must be your governors* ments improved, and especially that the canals and legislators, if you are honest with them and should be wisely regulated, so that there may be if you mean in good faith that they are your, a great deal less of stealth, so that there shall be equals. If you do not mean to do this, and ifyoix, a greater performance of public duty for a smaller do mean to carry out a sort of freedman' slavery amount of money. And it is for these reasons, by getting their votes, and at the same time deny-: among a great many others which I have not the ing them all the privileges of office, yo time to enumerate, that I desire to see the mind deceiving them. You must take this question of and temper of this Convention concentrated upon frauchise to al its natural resuls and say twhat i these great maerial questions connected witi, lhe these men are equal as citizens, theyare as mat t happinss and prosperity of the p the o f oourse entitled to allthose privileges of Eqal State. This question of.franchise to some seven.,hih belong the whto race itsel, lv?: e or ten thousand colored persons should not be colore d man feels thi dey hinttei t tem nor made tsupersede them aide to ofice Whle raniting hime the pri 464 of the franchise, is to hold out to him a hope shattered as it is, and I have great respect also which he, as a sensible man, feels that he for the fathers who framed it. I believe that never can realize, and hence it is that a great no people will ever pay a proper respect to poabody of the sensible negroes at the North terity who do not render a proper respect to their and at the South, have gone to those governments ancestors. I am, if you please, one of that class abroad which they established, and it is an ex- we sometimes in derision stigmatize as "old ample to us, and for us that where they have fogies." I believe in the fathers; I believe in the established a government of their own, they have government which they established; I do not east off the white race. Why, sir, look at the believe in your modern innovations. I believe in government of Liberia to-day. It Is agovern- the words of Edmund Burke, that it cannot ment of black men, by black men, for black men, be too often repeated line upon line, and precept and no white man is permitted to hold any office upon precept, until it passes into the currency of of honor or trust in that government. Look to a proverb, that "to innovate is not to reform," the government of Hayti. It is the same thing and it is your constant daily innovations upon the there. By a decree, they exclude all white men Constitution of the United States, which has from holding office there. Now, Mr. Chairman, endangered and is endangering the governin these late days, it may not be a proper thing to ment itself. Step by step we have made say, but it is nevertheless true that this govern- these advances. My colleague [Mr. Curtis], ment of ours was established by white:nen for called it progress. I call it innovation. I white men. They so created it, and all your call it departing from the great landmarks of our quotations from the Declaration of Independence fathers, and I warn gentlemen that the same about the equality of races are in truth, what Mr. fate which has befallen other governments, will Choate once called them, so many "glittering gener- befall ours, unless we pay more respect than we eraities," having some truth in them, I grant, have to the teachings of the fathers. The great but when you analyze that truth, you are entirely ocean is made up of drops of water, and we feel unwilling to make the application claimed for it. from time to time. that as these innovations conWhy, gentlemen, is this a government created, tinue to flow on and swell the tide of despotic established or maintained by the consent of the power, that our public liberties and our public governed? What is the example which has been safety are endangered. Step by step we make cited here within the last few minutes? What those advances upon our dearest rights and priviare the facts? Twelve States of this Union, if leges-we are by our own hands consigning our they could have had their own way, would have government to its grave, and may ere long say secured their separate independence. By the with Byron, of his friend Henry Kirk White: strong arm of the government they were compelled to remain a part of the Union o? the States "So the struck eagle stretched along the plain, and to live under the Constitution of the United Views his ownah rligr ocloud to soa again, Views his own feathcr on the fatal dart States..Where was the consent of the governed And winged the shaft that quivered in his heart. in that case? Sir,. it rested where it ought to Keen were his pangs, but keener far to feel, rest, in the general government to maintain its Ie nursed the pinion that impelled the steel And the same plumage which had warmed his nest, own unity. It was by the power of the general Drank the last life drops from his bleeding breast." government that the rebellion was put down. It was most truly said the other evening by my Mr. FULLER - I do not rise to trouble the friend from Rockland [Mr. Conger], that there Convention with any extended remarks. The was one million majority against the late chief Convention will bear witness that I have occumagistrate of this nation, Abraham Lincoln, whose pied but little of its time. But sir, I too, with the words and oath are inscribed above your head. gentleman from Richmond [Mr. Brooks] have A.million of people in the majority, and this some respect for the fathers of the Republic; and majority never consented to be thus governed by I cannot sit silent and hear their doctrine so often Mr. Lincoln; but yet in due obedience to the law, and so foully impugned. Sir, next to my Bible I and to that law which I hold in my hands, which lave been taught by my fathers, in whose veins isthe supreme law of the land, I mean the.Con- the blood of the Revolution flowed, to reverence stitution of the United States, the majority yielded the doctrines of the Declaration of Independence. and the rebellion raised by or through this elec- When the representatives of the people of the tion was very properly put down, and the union colonies assembled in Independence Hall, and put of the States maintained. Albeit, Mr. Chairman. forth those doctrines, they pledged to their support we have witnessed so many innovations from time their lives, their fortunes, and their sacred: honor; to time, as to make it almost out of order tospeak and upon the battle-fields of the Revolutica, they with reverence and respect of the Constitution sealed their devotion to them with their blood. of the United States, for, as was said by the But sir, we are told here to-day and we have been great leader of the party, in the House of Repre- told before more than once, that this same charsentatives, the other day, "Some fragments of ter of our liberties is a fallacy. We have been the old shattered Constitution had stuck perhaps told here that it is not true that governments deinthe kidneys of some Senators and troubled them rive their just powers from the consent of the gov. at nightl" Aye, Mr. Chairman, this is the esti- erned. Sir, I maintain that they do, and I say ate of the American Constitution in this year of that unless they do, then the Declaration was put ooe -LorI 1887. "Some fragmets of the Consti- forth and the blood of theRevolution was shed iu titit of the United States sticks in the kidnays of vain. Gentlmen say itis afallay, because we were naors and trouble them at night Si, I confessunder theneessity of putting down a rebellionin ia ~ Igrea l r othtat tdonstiti o od and, the st as ainst the government: It 465 is no fallacy, and the example cited does not prove far distant when it will end in the destruction of it to be a fallacy. It is still true that all govern- our institutions and our form of government. ments derive their just powers from the consent There is a change, as has been said, which is not of the governed; and also true that there must be progress. It is a.change which precedes dissolusome way devised by the social compact in which tion, and I believe that if this innovation is made, that consent shall be expressed. When the Con- it will end in the dissolution of society and in the stitution of the United States was adopted, the disorganization of our form of government. people of the Southern States as a part, as an inte- Mr. HITCHCOCK-I move that the committee gral portion of the people of the United States, gave do now rise, report progress, and ask leave to Fit their consent to it, and after having given their again. consent to it in that solemn manner, they had no The question was put on the motion of Mr. right to withdraw that consent; and that was the Hitchcock and it was declared carried. question which was submitted to the arbitrament Whereupon the committee rose, and the PRESof the sword. Though they had given their IDENT resumed the chair in Convention. consent in that solemn form, they contended that Mr. ALVORD, from the Committee of the they had a right to withdraw it under the reserved Whole, reported that the committee had had rights of the States; and we contended they had under consideration the report of the Committee not; that having given their consent to the great on the Right of Suffrage and the Qualifications to charter of our government, they had no right to Hold Office, and had made some progress therein; withdraw it, and that was the question which was but not having gone through therewith, had determined in our favor by the war. And now, directed their Chairman to report that fact to the sir, I protest, standing here, in behalf of my con- Convention, and ask leave to sit again. stituents, against this idea that the doctrine con- The question was then put on granting leave tained in the Declaration of Independence is a fal- and it was declared carried. lacy. And now, sir, I come to the question pend- Mr. BARNARD -I move that the Convention ing. I am opposed to the amendment offered by take a recess until four o'clock.,the gentleman from Richmond [Mr. Curtis], and Mr. LEE —I move to amend by making the in saying this, I do not think that the position I take hour half-past seven o'clock. conflicts with the one I have previously assumed. The PRESIDENT —In the opinion of the I contend that the females of the State of New Chair, the motion is not amendable. York have given their consent to the government The question was then put on the motion of Mr. under which they live, and that they have given Barnard, and it was declared carried, on a it in the proper form; and that is really the ques- division, by a vote of 58 to 26. tion before the Convention, ho v that consent So the Convention took a recess until four should be given-whether it shall be given in per- o'clock. son by their votes, which they shall deposit in the ballot-box, or whether it shall be given through their husbands, in the way God designed it should SS be given. Sir, my constituents are not in favor of this innovation, and least of all are my lady The Convention re-assembled at four o'clock constituents in favor of it. I believe that and again resolved itself into a Committee of the there has but one single petition come from Whole on the report of the Committee on the Right the county of Monroe in favor of female suf- of Suffrage and the Qualifications to Hold Office; frage, and that one is from a single individ- Mr. ALVORD, of Onondaga, in the Chair. ual. It is to the credit of the county I repre- The CHAIRMAN announced the pending quessent that none others have come. They have tion to be on the amendment proposed by Mr. not been sent, because the ladies of that county Curtis to the amendment of Mr. C. C. Dwight to are opposed to this innovation. They are opposed the clause as reported by the committee. to that small minority of strong-minded women Mr. MERRITT —I regard the admission of whom the gentleman from Richmond [Mr. Curtis], females to the right of suffrage as a question of so ably represents, and they object to having the practical expediency. The right is to be granted elective franchise forced upon them by that small or withheld as a majority of the electoral body minority against their will. The ladies of Monroe shall at the proper time decide. The change concounty, whom I have the honor to represent, are templated in the fundamental law is a great one. It not inferior in education, refinement, in culti- is in contravention of the established customs and vation, and in all that goes to make up the true practices of all organized governments up to the woman, to the ladies in any other part of the present time, but that fact does not necessarily State; but they have not asked, and do not ask, prove that to confer the right would either degrade to have this privilege conferred upon them. And, woman or endanger the State, as suggested by the aiir, I protest against it in their name. I am gentleman from Onieda rMr. T. W. Dwight, opposed to it for another reason also. I believe that if the privilege of holding office should n the granting of the elective franchise to woman pany and follow its bestowal, women Would neees would unsex, would corrupt ad4 degrade her. sarily be chosen by the great body of the peple S, there is such a'thing as running the elective to fill offices for which they are not itted, either franchise into the ground; and this proposition to on account of physical or intellectual ineapacity. extend it to woman looks very much like it. Sir,It is payinaltogether too great a comip~mazst Ina no eprophet nor the son of a prophet, but I to them ti assume in diScussion tt b will ventour to predict that if this innovation superiority as pra^till buess pesof'- tS'ihey' eluldvr be made, the time will not then be would u"mand and seure isul..... 59 466 as candidates and thereby secure their election. It was admitted by the gentleman from New York [Mr. Daly] that, so far as the effect of extending the right as contemplated to women, on political parties, results would not be materially changed. If so, no danger to the State could well be apprehended, especially so long as the party now in power shall continue to hold the reins of government. But, it is said that women may aspire to the highest offices, and their ambition be thereby stimulated so as to in some way result in injury to them. I would respectfully ask whether women are now prohibited from holding any office within the gift of the people? [ am willing to admit that the commonly accepted idea is, that under our present Constitution males should hold the offices, but it is not so provided in that instrument. The word used is "person," and it applies to all officers, not only to executive aad judicial but those more subordinate. There is but one exception, and that is in the case of admission to practice in the courts of justice, this privilege being confined to males who have reached the age of twenty-one years. I would ask gentlemen whether women are not now eligible to legislative offices? And whether, if Mrs. Elizabeth Cady Stanton had been elected to this body by receiving the largest number of votes, and having received proper credentials, there is anything in our Constitution, or in any existing law, by which she could be excluded. If there is, I am not aware of the fact. I am free to admit that none should be permitted to hold office who are not citizen erectors In order to thus provide, the comimittee, of which I have the honor to be a member, have, in the article which has been submitted, explicitly declared that Senators and members of Assembly shall be electors of the State. That provision does not, however, exist in the present Constitution. I hold it to be entirely within the province of the people, in their sovereign capacity as electors (those who are so at the present or at any future time) to say whether they will extend the suffrage or not. Having always exercised the right, it is proper that they should, until it is extended by them to the class who now seek it. I do not believe that a majority of the electoral body are prepared at the present time to grant this right to women, and indeed, I very much doubt whether if it should be immediately submitted to women exclusively they would by a majority claim the right or acccept it. That does not, however, change the condition of things. This right of oting is nevertheless claimed by a coiderable number of the females of the State, and the right and propriety of such extension of the elective franchise is conceded by a large portion of our male population. It is therefore a proper subject for the consideration of the people and it is proper that the electors of the Stat should pass upon the question. I would not, howevr, combine it With other important prpsda mendments to the Constitution. I had lthe hoor to introduce a resoluti to submit this questio to the people to be voted on by them in the year 18 V. I am. in fvor ofthu sabitting it, ed to submitting It the boy of -the sitiiK^aol^r eewt The d laypro ped aot unranale andif proper efort shall be made by those specially interested, it can, by that time, be properly brought before the electors for their consideration and action. There has been a good deal said about the incapacity of women; the differences between the sexes in regard to mental constitution and moral characteristics as well as differences of duties in the social relation; but what, I ask, has that got to do with individual rights? I regard the question of female suffrage as a practical one, to be considered in the light of anticipated results. If we are satisfied that its practical effect would be favorable to law and order and good government, then we should favor it without being governed by tradition and past usages. Some stress has been laid on the statement that the extension of the suffrage would necessarily carry with it the duty of office-holding. That does not necessarily follow. I have already shown that females are eligible to office, or at least they are not prohibited by the Constitution. it provides that " no person except a citizen of the United States shall be eligible to the office of Governor," and shall have been a resident of the State a certain length of time. I would ask gentlemen whether in case a woman should be elected to that office, being a citizen of the United States and a resident as provided, could she not, if elected to that position, take possession of the office and hold it? It has been asked in regard to men of color, "Do you intend to make them eligible to the jury-box and to hold office?" They have always had that right. It does not, however, appear that because they have been eligible that they have to any great extent been chosen to such offices. Colored men possessing real estate to the amount of two hundred and fifty dollars have always been eligible to hold any office within the gift of the people of this State, and no man can deprive him of the right of filling the office of Governor if the majority of the people choose to elect him As there is no prohibition in the existing Constitution against women and colored persons holding offices, the only question which is properly before us is whether we will extend to them the right of suffrage. Mr. BARNARD-It appears to me that the advocates of female suffrage, not only the eloquent gentleman from Richmond [Mr. Curtis], but those who preceded him in the informal meetings that were had in this room, have forgotten one great fact, and that is that there is a religious view of this question that, to my mind at least, is conclusive against the affirmative side of the question. We must concede, whatever may be the theory as to whether voting is a natural right or a right given by society, that the voters in this country are the rulers in this country, and that whoever has the right of voting has the ight of ruling. We have a Scripture warrant, at any rate, for sllowing that at a very early age of the world the right of ruling was taken away from woman by a judgment, which up to this tine has remained unreversed. I hold in my hands a book that has sometimes been referred to- the Holy Scriptures. I will refer to the judgment that warendered uponthese individuals, and a _0 va aan: ir stf Is:: must admir tnat trom the iane oil Il renBition. 1o the' - - I - t-e at ha remI d nreered I wa Aedrds h aewe h lilt 46T7 called man to judgment for a violation of His first looking to the happiness of her partner as the great commandment. I will read: great object of her life. He feels then that "And the man said, 'The woman whom Thou there is his home; that without any comavest to be with me, she gave me of the tree mand except the mere law of love - that and I did eat.' law which was implanted in her heart from "And the Lord God said unto the woman,' What her earliest infancy, and in the origin almost of is this that thou hast done?' And the woman the race-she will remain to guide and cheer lim said 'The serpent beguiled me and I did eat.'" on his way through his earthly career. He And here comes the judgment, and first to the encounters the storms of the world; she soothes serpent: him in his sorrows. " Because thou hast done this thou art accursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the To soothe our riefs, our woes allay, field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt To heal the heart by misery riven, thou eat all the days of thy life. And I will put Change earth into an embryo heaven. And drive life's fiercest cares away.` enmity between thee and the woman, and between An ve fes ercest cares away." thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, That is her appointed duty. In behalf of the and thou shalt bruise his heel." young men of our age, I would say that that duty Whatever may be said as to the natural fact will remain; let us not interfere with it. Let us not of the serpent moving upon his belly and invest woman with the right of voting and the eating of the dust, the other part, the bruising correlative right of ruling. Imagine what would of his head, we all know to be true, and that it be the condition of the young men of Brooklyn, has continued up to the present time. There is where I reside - the "city of churches" - in the not one of us in this room that can remember when event of such a provision as is here proposed we were so young that we would not put our foot being engrafted into our Constitution. I will upon the head of a serpent and kill him if he imagine the case of a young man, who, as we all went by our path. And while you may get up have done at one time in our lives, starting out to societies for the prevention of cruelty to animals, seek his future mate in society. He calls at the I have never heard of a society for the prevention house of the one he admires, and is told by the of cruelty to serpents, and if such a society were servant that she is out. He inquires where, to be incorporated, I venture to say that if a law and the reply is that she has gone down to' wereto bepassed against such cruelty to serpents, attend a primary meeting in the ward, conit would be violated by all, and disregarded by vened to nominate an aldermanl "Well," the one-half of the justices of the peace in this State- young man says, "I will call to-morrow." " No, certainly by all the God-fearing ones, and that they you cannot call to-morrow; she has been elected would regard this law [pointing to the Bible] as a a delegate to the county convention, which she higher law than that passed by our Legislature. must then attend, to nominate a sheriff. coroner In regard to that, the judgment has remained up and superintendent of the poor." "Well, if I to the present time, and is likely to continue for can't see her to-morrow or on week days I will all future time. Now let us look at the judg- call on Sunday night." "No, you cannot call mont against the woman: next Sunday, because she is going to Plymouth "Unto the woman, He said, I will greatly mul- Church to hear a sermon on politics by the Rbv. tiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow Henry Ward Beecher." [Laughter.] What is thou shall bring forth children, and thy desire the poor fellow to do? The order of society is shall be to'thy husband, and he shall rule over thee." reversed. I do not know but what we will bring That law has continued from that time to the about the confusion of society which has been present. No sooner does woman pass from girl- referred to by the gentlgman from Oneida [Mr. T. hood than " the desire " springs up in her breast, W. Dwightl. It breaks up the established order and although she may not then discover the of things; and, for one, I think the subject had object of that Heaven-made match which better be let alone. There is, as he stated, a very is afterward to follow, that desire may wide distinction between the sexes. He has reexist for days, weeks, months, or even years ferred to the German poet to show how that dis. before the promised object is presented. At last tinction exists. But, sir, we have in our own land* she sees the loved one, she hears his voice, she a poet who shows the distinctions between the beholds the glance of his eye, and she realizes sexes, in very powerful language, where he says: that " There are l6oks and tones which dart "Man is the proud and lofty pine An instant tunsltine thrmogh the heart, That frowns on many a wave-beat shore;: As if the soul that moment caught Woman's the young and tender vine, Some treasure it through life had sought." Whose curling tendrils round it twine, Her desire is to him. In process of time she And deck its rough bark sweetly or becomes his wife, and he becomes her husband Man's the rock, whose towering crest and rules over her. He takes her to his house. Nods o'er the mountain's barren aid; He may issue no command; he may make no Woman's the soft and mossy vest, order; he leaves her to her appointed sphere, and Thit es to cls its aterle reast;, eAnd-wreath It- brow witbllverdaat prIdiie.:; ha enters out into the world to encounter its contets,y to meet with its rivalries, and its jealousies, M an'te elona ot:comin storm,. and its variots disappointments. IHe may pro- Dark as the t 'iave' m aeed back to ttie house with a sorrowful hear, t but h the fids a ias sunshine; that his wife i;:i tiyio:lth:gt ~:.~ ~{h~yM~~ukheatei*$~, 468 Now, sir, that is the distinction which exists between the sexes. And I would see that distinction continued. I would look upon woman as she has always been looked upon —not as the strong-minded woman, going from State to State and from political meeting to political meeting, delivering political speeches-but as that other woman that may be referred to as the mother of Washington, and to that mother to whose funeral the attention of some of us has been recently called. I saw it at a lecture or a sermon by a minister that he recently attended the funeral of a woman. The coffin was borne by four of her sons. One was a justice of the supreme court of the United States; one was a distinguished lawyer of the city of New York, one was a distinguished clergyman, and one was president of the senate of his native State. They marched along bearing the coffin carefully, being unwilling that any other man should assist them in that last solemn duty. The minister might have gone on and said that another one was another distinguished son of America, whose efforts have tended to bring Europe and America closer together by the telegraphic cable. I venture to say that that woman could not have performed the distinguished part she did in life, and could not have raised those sons up to be what they are, if she had been traveling from State to State delivering political lectures. I venture to say that she would never have possessed that bright galaxy of jewels which she has pre-.sented to the world. When the Roman mother was called upon to show her jewels she pointed to her children and said, "These are my jewels." So that true American woman in life could point to her children and say, " These are my jewels," and a brighter galaxy no American woman need boast of. This is the true function of woman, and to remain at home, to promote the blessings of home, rear up her children to be useful, aud!if you please, distinguished members of society. Let us only know her by her love. " For woman's love's a holy light That brighter, brighter burns for aye; Years cannot dim its radiance bright, Nor even falsehood. quench its ray. ]But like the Star of Bethlehem Of old, to Israel's shepherds given, It marshals with its steady flame The erring soul of man to heaven." Mr. M. H. R AWRENCE -I had not intended, Mr. Chairman, to say a word bqfore this commit. tee until the gentleman who has just taken his seat [Mr, Barnard] had proceeded with his remarks. But it seemed to me, when that gentleman was upon this floor addressing us, with that book In hand, that he supposed he was in some ancient assemblage of men such as that ecclesiastical court whic tried the distinguished astronomer, Galileo, with book in hand, pronouncing judgment and anathema because head the temerity to de. lare thai the earth revolved around the sun; and like that ecclesiastical powr, he gentleman seemed to readir that book, and form eonelusions that women have no right to vote. It is the same argument that [ha bperi/usedby powerd and 'y 'power and prfivllgf oa'r ln:e, the world bega to keep the O odb ep the g8ses of the: wr i n tpo*rty Afnd bondage. t'It:I ithi nitt that if I do have the temerity to vote for the amendment of the gentleman from Richmond [Mr. Curtis] I do.not do it expecting that it will drive woman into the political arena. I do not do it for the purpose of producing domestic strife, but for the purpose of making more secure domestic happiness and more sacred our house, hold gods. I wish to utter a few words here repelling the idea that we design to make politicians of women. It is no such thing. I vote for the amendment because I think, with the ballot in the hands of every class, we can secure to every class their just rights, and that is the only way by which they can be secured. I believe that with every class possessed of the ballot there would be a more equal distribution of the proceeds of labor throughout the State. I claim that there is no protection for any class without the ballot, and in my opinion it is a God-given right which we have no power to confer. When we allow people to vote we only allow what belongs to the people to do. It is their inherent right to vote. Gentlemen talk as if the body politic was going to be destroyed if the ballot was conferred upon womenl I think the county of Columbia seems to be greatly disturbed lest all the ladies in the land shall turn politicians l Certainly that county must be disturbed, if we are to judge from the language of its distinguished representatives [Messrs. Gould and Silvester]. They have made it known to this Convention that the ladies of that county have no sympathy with this idea of woman's voting. The eloquent gentleman from that county who addressed us last evening [Mr. Silvester] stated that just before he left his home the women came swarming around him and said, " Oh, Mr. Silvester, we know you are a modest man [laughter], but when you get to Albany, at the great State Convention, do beseech the Convention not to confer this power upon us. We are afraid we shall go into crooked paths, and become demagogues and go upon the hustings, if the right to vote is given us." [Laughter.] The gentleman even took the opportunity of advertising himself to the great State of New York as a bachelor [laughter], and that his love extended to all womankind, and he turned his hand out in this direction [pointing to the sofa in the rear of the room where ladies were sitting.] [Laughter.] I wish to suggest to my friend from Columbia that such a wide-spread and extended love for all woman-kind may not be acceptable to the ladies of Columbia county. [Laughter.] The ladies out in the western part of the State where I reside, like something a little more definite. [Laughter.] When a gentleman there expresses such a widespread love it is looked upon with some degree of suspicion. [Laughter.] But in all seriousness I believe the ballot to be the great educator and I care but little what effect my vote has upon my constituents. [ know they believe that I will cast an honest vote.- I know it would be idle for me, after this Convention has listened to the able, statesmanlike and eloquent address of the gentleman from tichmond [Mr Curtis], to attempt to add anyhing of interest to what haa been said. But, sir, when I vote to extend the right Of suffrage to woman, I vote to give to woman an equal chance ilhmant In thie race oflire. I vott totake away 489 all obstacles in her pathway, that the two sexes may have an equal opportunity for success. I believe, as I said, that the ballot is a great educator of the people. Ibelieve that it will be given to woman, and I believe that when she is possessed of it, we will have a political millenium in comparison with the present order of things. And I believe that we will never have an improved state of civil society until woman does possess the ballot. Why should we disfranchise one-half the adult population of this State? Our mothers, who have been widows from our earliest infancy, have paid taxes, have assisted to build school-houses, and performed all the duties of a male citizens, and yet have had no voice in matters of local government. I know districts where the greater portion of the taxes are paid by women. Why do you deny to women. under such circumstances, the right to be heard and to participate in government, and yet compel them to pay taxes? It is a true doctrine that there should be no taxation without representation. The gentleman from Kings [Mr. Barnard], who addressed us, Bible in hand, said she was weaker,that God Almighty ordained her present condition. The gentleman pretends that woman has been doomed by the Almighty to all this misery upon her sex for the last six thousand years, and that it has been with the approbation of the Almighty. I believe in no such doctrine. Does the gentleman mean to tell me that the Almighty ever made a king to rule over a nation? I deny that He ever did except because of their sins. Put weights upon the limbs of a people so that they cannot move hand or foot, cannot help themselves, and then charge them with inferiority I That is the history of woman and of the female mind. But, sir, by permission of the Convention, certain ladies who have been stigmatized as strong-minded women, addressed many rembers of the Cnvention in this chamber. I had the pleasure,in common with other gentlemen, to hear them. I do not know that the gentleman from Kings [Mr. Barnard] did: but I wish to say this, that I believe the time will come when the people of this State will decide whether those ladies are stronger minded than the gentlemen of this Convention who have addressed us. It does seem to me if there was any evidence of strongmindedness, it was quite as manifest as that which has been exhibited in this Convention. Mr. CURTIS- I have no wish to delay the question, and certainly not to prolong the debate in which my own shareMr. HAND - I rise to a question of order. I submit that the gentleman has spoken once — The CHAIRMAN - The Chair is of the opinion that the gentleman from Richmond [Mr. Curtis] has not spoken since the rule went into operation. Mr. CURTIS- I have listened with the utmost interest to the melodious debate which has raged upon this floor. I have heard, sir, the rattling vollies of compliments which have been fired over the graves of the equal rights of woman, and it is the same old, hollow and familiar sound. I have felt, sir, during all the flattery and gallantry of this discussion, that the essential reason of the question has been undisturbed. It is not a jest. Itis not a point which is to be dismissed with a sneer. It is not to be disposed of by a pleasing couplet of verse, nor is it to be settled by the light theories of gentlemen upon this floor, nor by the thoughtless theories of gentlemen anywhere in the world, of the capacity and function of women. The grounds, sir, upon which this movement rests are twofold. In the first place, as a participator in the natural right of humanity,and as an heir of all the protection which experience has shown to be essential for the defense of those rights, every woman has precisely the claim to that defense which every other person in society has, subject only to the equitable conditions which are reasonably imposed. I havenot heard that position really assailed in this Convention. It seems to me to be absolutely impregnable. And the second position upon which the thoughtful advocates of this reform plant themselves is this: that the function of the sex, upon which gentlemen have been so eloquent and amusing, san never be determined until there is the same absolute liberty of development allowed to women that there is to man. I have heard incessantly from the lips of my friend from Broome [Mr. Hand], and from other gentlemen who have addressed the Convention upon the opposite side, what they call the order of nature and the divine intention in regard to women. Sir, I have heard very much more of the intentions of God and the reasons of divine Providence upon this floor than I myself can presume to know. It is enough for me that in this world we cannot apprehend the divine intentions in humanity except by securing the most absolute liberty for the development of every function with which God has endowed us that is compatible with the equal liberty of every other man. And, sir, speaking as a human being, I claim in behalf of every individual of the other sex, that I cannot know, and you cannot know, and no gentleman in this Convention or in the world can know, what is her true prerogative, what is her true function, or the sphere of her sex, until she enjoys precisely the same liberty of development that we claim for ourselves. And if any gentleman will tell me that he will willingly renounce his share of the government of the country in which he lives, being sure that he and every other man in the same condition will still have that ample, equal liberty of development, then, sir, and not till then, will I concede that he justly requires a similar surrender of women. But I protest with all my humanity, and with all the energy of my mind, against calling our theories, the theories of men who have constantly excluded women from the government and the politics of this world, the divine order in regard to women. Sir, I put that objection under my heel with precisely the same contempt that I disregard the claim of any king or emperor that he rules by the grace of God. The grace of God in humanity is absolute liberty. Th re gra of God, so far as we can see it in the human order, is pef feet freedom of development. That is whhat I claim, sir-absolute equality of development and unlimited freedom of choice. I claim that riot for woman as woman, but I claim it for her as"a human being. I claim it for every woman,d I claim it for every human beig. Sir, my friend and colleague from Richmond [Mr. E. Broo], 470 in closing his remarks this morning-to which pay or offer to pay, contribute or offer to conwe listened with the same kind of silent deference, tribute to another to be paid, any money or other with which we regard a funeral train enter a valuable thing to influence or reward a vote given cemetery, by raising our hats in respect-my or to be given at an election, or to reward an eleceloquent colleague declared that for his part he tor for attending the polls at such election to vote, thought it wise to hold by the wisdom of our shall vote at such election; and upon challenge ancestors, and to make no change without the for such cause, the person so challenged shall, amplest reason, and he fortified his position by a before the inspectors receive his vote, swear or remark of Burke. I remind him, sir, of another affirm before such inspectors that he has not remark of Burke, which I do not doubt he will received, does not expect to receive, has not paid remember, and it is well for this Convention and or offered to pay, contributed or offered to confor every body of men who are making funda- tribute to another to be paid, any money or other mental laws, and who wish to entrench them. valuable thing to influence or reward a vote given selves upon the conservatism of Edmund Burke, or to be given at such election, or to reward an to remember it also. He said in one of his legal elector for attending the polls at such election to arguments or speeches: "I am not of the opinion vote. Tle Legislatureshall provide bylaw for the of those gentlemen who are against disturbing the trial of persons charged with bribery, or of havpublic repose. I like a clamor whenever there irg received money or other valuable thing to isan abuse. The fire-bell at midnight disturbs influence or reward their votes given at an election your sleep, but it keeps you from being burnt in since the adoption of this Constitution, and upon your bed. The hue and cry alarms the country, such trial the accused person may be a witness but preserves all the property of the province." in his own behalf; and no other person shall be Sir, in regard to the amendment which I have exempt from testifying on such trial on the proposed to this Convention, it may be now that ground that his testimony may tend to criminate its voice from the lips of those who advocate it is or degrade him; but such testimony shall never but the silver tinkle of a distant bell. I invite my be used against him in any criminal proceeding; colleague and I invite every thoughtful man to and provided also, that the penalty upon conviclisten well, to observe that the sound increases, tion of having received money or other valuable that it swells, and before some of us are dead it thing to influence or reward a vote since the will culminate in a peal that will "ring out the adoption of this Constitution, shall extend only old, end ring in the new." I claim that the to disfranchisement and disability to hold civil essential argument has been untouched. I de- office. Laws may be passed excluding from voting mand absolute equality of development for every at an election every person who shall have made human being, and unlimited freedom of choice. or shall be interested in a bet or wager dependI ask, Mr. Chairman, that this question may be ing upon the result thereof. taken by a count. Mr. SMITH- Mr. Chairman Mr. E. BROOKS-Mr. Chairman- Mr. SPENCER-I desire to ask the gentleThe CHAIRMAN-The Chair will inform the man [Mr. Smith] whether the language of the gentleman from Richmond [Mr. E. Brooks] that amendment proposed by him is not liable he is out of order. to the construction that only those would be Mr. E. BROOKS-I do not wish to trespass entitled to vote who at the present time, or at the upon the time, but I would like to say a word time of the adoption of the Constitution, are upon the question. citizens? I would suggest to the mover that he The question was then put upon the amendment so modify that language as to read as follows: of Mr. Curtis, and it was declared lost on a divi- "Every man of the age of twenty-one years, who sion, by a vote of 24 to 63. for one year next preceding the election shall Mr. SMITH offered the following amendment: have been an inhabitant of this State, and for Substitute the following for section one, to-wit: thirty days a citizen of the United States, etc." "SEa. I. Every man of the age of twenty-one Mr. SMITH-I propose to make an explanayears, who shall have been an inhabitant of this tion of the amendment, and if the gentleman will.State for one year next preceding an election, and look at the amendment, and it be found liable to for the last ten days a citizen of the United the criticism which he suggests, it can be altered. States and a resident of the election district where My principal object in offering this amendment is to he may offer his vote, shall be entitled to vote at secure, if possible, a more stringent clause intended such election in said district, and not elsewhere, to purify the elective franchise. I have followed, for all officers elective by the people. Provided in drawing that amendment, the original as introthat after the year 1868 no person shall be duced by the committee, making slight alterations entitled to vote at an election unless for the last which will be apparent by comparing the two. It thirty days prior thereto he shall have been a makes the thirty-day clause prospective. It omits Citizen of the United States; and provided also, the clause in regard to paupers. I should have no that idiots, lunatics, persons under guardian- difficultyin voting for that, myself, on principle, but ship, felons persons convicted of bribery or there seems to be very much objection to it in the:of any infamous crime, and persons convicted committee and on the part of the members of the of having received money or other valuable Convention, and therefore I have omitted it from thing to influence or reward their, votes, given the substitute The clause in relation to idiots, lunaat an election after the adoption of this Consti- tics, and persons under guardianship, is retained. tuition, unless pardoned or otherwise restored I suppose that no member of the Convention would;t 1vil right, shall not be entitled to vote. No claim that an diot, lunatic, or person under r o hoI: p^re^vexpect to receive, guardianshipought to te. The only objection. o* ~f|;;: 71I made to that clause has been, that there might stated, my purpose in proposing this substitute is be some difficulty in determining this class of to make the provision for purifying elections more persons at the polls, and that difficulty is obviated stringent and effective. The provision reported by section three, which provides that laws shall be by the committee which permits a challenge made bor ascertaining them by proper proofs. The at the polls, is retained in the substitute. Legislature, under this clause, may regulate this Both the buyer and seller may be challenged and matter. It may provide for fixing the status put upon their oath, and if they cannot purge of these classes by judicial proceedings, themselves they are not permitted to tote at the or leave it to be determined under proper regula- pending election. It seems to me we ought to go tions at the polls. That seems to meet the objec- further-that we ought to permanently disfrantion which has been made to that section oni ac- clise the man who sells his vote until he be count of the difficulty suggested. The substitute restored to the rights of citizenship by the paradds to the list of disfranchised persons those who doning power. Now, it may be asked why do shall have sold their votes, and provides that the you not include the buyer and have him disLegislature shall make laws for the trial and con- franchised permanently? My answer is that the viction of such persons. Now, I beg that the men who use their money to promote elections Convention will take into serious consideration the are not so culpable as the man who sells his vote. necessity of such a provision. Whatever we may Why? Because the moral quality of an action do, or neglect to do, if we fail to secure in the in- must be determined by the motive. The man strument we are about to frame a provision that who sells his vote has no motive but the lowest shall be effective in purifying the elective fran- and basest one. It is pure selfishness and chise, we shall fail to perform the most important venality. He cares not for his country, and duty devolving upon the Convention. It is he cares not how he exercises that sacred most imperiously demanded by the public of all trust. If he can get five dollars for his vote, that parties. I have been appealed to on this point is all he cares for. But it often happens that the by men of all parties, and earnestly enjoined to do man who uses money feels a deep interest in the all in my power to secure some provision in the pending election, independent of all selfish connew Constitution which shall prevent corruption siderations. He believes, it may be, that the at the polls. It has become a very serious evil, welfare and safety of the country and society and and one which is dangerous to the stability of our the stability of the government depend upon the government Thousands and thousands of per- success of his party in the pending election. He sons -every year sell their votes, and tens of feels the necessity of using money, because thousands of dollars are expended in every he knows that there are voters in the market, important election in corrupting the fountains of and if he does not secure them in the only power, in buying votes, and controlling elections. way they can be secured, their votes will be Men to whom the privilege of voting is granted lost to the cause of truth. Hence it is, for the protection of their own rights, and as a that upright and moral citizens use their money in sacred trust to be exercised for the good of society, promoting elections, and yet they regret the prostitute it to their own base and selfish pur- necessity, and are anxious that some provision poses. It is a fraud upon the Constitution; for should be made to prevent it. But, Mr. Chairthe man who buys votes, instead of casting but man, even if the buyers were equally guilty, I one vote as he is entitled to do by the Constitu- should not think it expedient to include them. tion, may have fifty or one hundred, according to It would be regarded by them as an unjust reflecthe amount of money he is able or willing to tion. tend to provoke their hostility to the prospend in purchasing them. It degrades the vision and increase the difficulty of enforcing it. privilege. It results in the election of corrupt A certain object is to be accomplished, to-wit: and incompetent men to official positions. In to prevent the traffic in votes. If there were no making nominations the question is asked, not votes to be sold there would be none to be who is the fit man, or who is the best man for the bought. If we cap accomplish the object by disoffice, but, to use cant phrases, "Wlho will bleed franchising the seller, no matter if the buyer be most freely?"- " Who has the largest pile?" equally guilty, the question is, how can we best It often happens, though not always, that men accomplish the object which we have in totally unfit for the position, and destitute of moral view. I would retain the original provision character, who have money to spend, are allowing the challenge of both buyer and seller at elected to responsible offices. The Legislature of the poll, to be followed by disfranchisement at our State for several years past afford an instruc- that election if they refuse to take the oath, or tive illustration. It is generally true that if a fail to purge themselves of guilt. In addition to man buys his way into the Legislature, he will this, the seller should be permanently disfransell his way through it. He will sell his vote and chised. He should be sent into society with the influence. The evil does not stop here; the ex- mark of infamy upon him, as a man who had ample and influence is felt in all other departments betrayed his trust, and shown himself unworthy of government. By an inevitable law, evil propa- the high privilege of exercising the elective frangates itself. If the fountain is impure the stream chise. It would be a proclamation to the:om; must be impure; and the stream of corruption munity in which he should dwell that this in-es sent forth from this poisoned fountain gathers timable privilege of an American citizen must not force and breadth as it rolls on, and spreads deso- be converted into an article of merchandise One lation throughout our land. In my judgment, such example in each community would, in miy there is no one thing that so urgently demands our judgment, forever cure the evil I might extend serious attention as this question As I have y remarks upon this matter, but y r m p. [~e *' 472 is merely to indicate the object and char. acter of the proposed amendment. I have endeavored to draw it so as to meet objections which have been raised to the original section by gentlemen who have addressed the committee, and hope that this, or something similar to it, will meet with general favor, and that we shall agree upon a provision that will forever purify our elections. In no way could we be instrumental in doing a higher service to our State; and if our labors thus result we shall ever look back upon them with the highest satisfaction. Mr. CONGER-I only wish to raise for the information of the committee and for our own guidance a question of order, whether the gentleman in submitting a series of propositions as amendments to the amendment has not submitted a series of propositions which will amend the whole article now before the Committee, and whether he is not limited at present to the first proposition. I do not seek to interfere with the right in committee to consider the whole proposition in the due and regular order of its parts, but to inquire whether the gentleman from Fulton [Mr. Smith] is not now limited to the first proposition which is an amendment to the amendment of the gentleman from Cayuga [Mr. C. C. Dwight]. The CHAIRMIAN- The Chair regards the amendment offered by the gentleman from Fulton as in order. Mr. FOLGER-I wish to ask the gentleman from Fulton [Mr. Smith] Whether he cannot separate his amendment so as to propound to the committee the exact point which he wishes to present. I do not understand him as desiring to change the whole amendment, proposed by the gentleman from Cayuga [Mr. C. C. Dwight], but only to have engrafted upon it so much of the phraseology which he has adopted as will convey in the Constitution to be adopted the idea which he has presented of punishing those who sells their votes or purchase them. I desire him to separate, as I think he can, so much of his amendment as will present the spirit and feature of it to the committee alone. I do not see the necessity of altering the phraseology of the gentleman from Cayuga [Mr. C. C. Dwight] merely to present this other idea, which is not in that amendment, of punishing the sale of a vote. Will it not present to the committee more definitely and more pointedly the idea he wishes to engraft upon the Constitution, that of rendering it infamous and a crime to sell a vote. I think it will be better to bring the committee to a vote upon that point, without frittering away their attention and exhausting it, and spreading it over the whole article, which he does by proposing the whole article as a substitute. Mr. SMITH-If I may be permitted to answer the gentleman, I would say, that I like the original section as drawn by the committee, with very few exceptions; therefore my object was to retain the original as far as possible, and to incorporate int oit these additonal amendments. I prefer the original with these proposed amendments to the su'stitute offered bythe: gentleman from Cayuga. The propoed changes are so interwoven with the orgiial, that it would be very difficult to separate tm withot cosiderble examatio and care. Mr. BARNARD -I ask that the question be divided, and that we take up each portion- of the amendment separately, The CHAIRMAN announced the question to be upon the first portion of the amendment offered by the gentleman from Fulton [Mr. Smithll. Mr. RATHBUN -The amenament proposed by my colleague [Mr. C. C. Dwight] has an advantage which it is well worth our while to consider. It has been the fundamental law of this State since 1846. All the provisions of residence contained in that amendment and the proviso are taken verbatim from the Constitution now existing, with which the people are entirely familiar and to which they have conformed for the last twenty years. Now, sir, the language is clear, definite, well understood practically by that long experience, and the departure from it or any of its provisions would require a good deal of examination and a good deal of investigation, much more than could be given to it by the mere hearing of a proposition read, in which we can recognize distinct omissions, to wit: no residence in the county is called for by the amendment of the gentleman from Fulton [Mr. Smith], if I recollect right, and consequently no residence in the election district fixed upon. Here are omissions which I apprehend the Convention will not be willing to part with; they are not new; nobody is to be deceived, nobody is to be defrauded, but they will have the old rule with which everybody is familiar, and yet I have never heard within the course of that twenty years any person find fault with the provisions of that section in the Constitution in regard to the matter presented by thai amendment of my colleague [Mr. C. C. Dwight]. No, sir; I apprehend our safety is in holding fast to all parts of the Constitution, whatever they may be, where by experience of twenty years no serious objection has been raised to them; and the only ground upon which, as I understand it, a proposition to amend can well arise is in regard to the question of bribery, which belongs in another portion of the article as reported by the Committee. With this single one, and that is the change of the right of suffrage from a portion of the colored men of the country to the whole body as a class, removing the property qualification, which has been retained as to them but abrogated as to white men. Now, sir, aside from that, it seems to me there is nothing which we should part with in the old or interpolate in the new; and I am in favor of the amendment of my colleague [Mr. C. C. Dwight], because I know what that is, and everybody in this house knows it as I do. Mr. ANDREWS-I understand from' the amendment that has been submitted by tho gentleman from Fulton [Mr. Smith] that he ifitends to retain that feature in the report of the committee, which provides that there shall be a citi. zenship of thirty days before a person shall be entitled to vote; but for the purpose of obviating the objection that has been made by some gentle. men in the house, to the effect that such a position would deprive certain individuals, acting upon the faith of the present Constitution, who declared their intentions in 1866, of the privilege of voting in 1868, he provides in substance that after the first day of Jauary, 1869, that a citizenship of 473 thirty days shall precede an election. What I in that case, it was declared that colored men, desire to. state is, that in my judgment th the descendants of slaves, were not entitled amendment would be improved by inserting to the rights or privileges of citizens of the nited the permament qualification, to wit: thirty States. The same decision was made in 1833, in days' citizenship prior to the time of an the State of Connecticut, in an opinion pronounced election in the affirmative and substantive part of by Chief Justice Daggett of that State, and you the article, and then by the proviso limit the will also remember that as late as 1856, Mr. application of that provision to such persons and Marcy, the Secretary of State of the United to such elections as should occur after the first States, refused a passport to a colored manday of January, 1869, so that when the time had a free man-on the ground that by adjudibeen reached when a uniform citizenship of thirty cations he was not a citizen. of the United days should be required, the body of the Consti- States, and hence was not entitled under the law tution in its affirmative part would show the to a passport trom that department. I know, Mr. permanent qualifications of electors. And I would Chairman, that the civil rights act of 1866 suggest to the gentleman from Fulton [Mr. declared that all persons born within the country *Smith] whether it would not be better that the were citizens of the United States and also amendment in the first place should provide, citizens of the State in which they were born; as in the report of the committee, that and I do not doubt myself that the law is, that every man of the age of twenty-one years, birth upon the soil entitles one to the rights as well who shall have been an inhabitant of this as imposes upon him the duties of citizenship, and State for one year next preceding the election, I doubt not that the present supreme court, if and for the last thirty days a citizen, etc., shall that question should again come before it for be entitled to vote, and then make a second pro- adjudication, would thus hold the law to be; viso, following the first one reported by the but the ground upon which Congress made this committee, in some such language as one which declaration has been questioned by high authority, I have drawn: "Provided also that until the and the same case to which I have already referred first day of January, 1869, a citizen who shall clearly shows by the statement of the judges that, have been a citizen for ten days, and is otherwise in their opinion, there was doubt as to the right of qualified, shall be entitled to vote." I think this the United States to declare, by act of Congress, certainly would improve the language of the sec- who were citizens of the United States, and, tion. I agree with the gentleman who last as I understand, the pending amendment to addressed the committee [Mr. Rathbun] that it. the Constitution of the United States, which is best to retain,, unless there is to be some change has been adopted by the Legislature of in the substance, the language of the existing this State, was made to cover this precise Constitution. Now, sir, the Constitution of difficulty. Section first declares that all persons 1846 declares that every male citizen possessing born or naturalized in the United States, and subcertain qualifications shall be entitled to vote. ject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the The report of the committee declares that every United States and of the State wherein they man of the age of twenty-one years who shall reside. If that amendment shall become a part for the last thirty days have been a citizen of the Constitution of the United States, then of of the United States shall be eutitled to vote, course the language of the committee would be adding to the qualification of citizenship, in entirely appropriate, and even if there is no great the present Constitution, the words "of the doubt as to the scope and effect of the legislation United States," thus determining, if this amend- of Congress in the civil rights bill, it seems to ment shall be adopted, that only a person who is me that at all events it is unwise to change the a citizen of the United States shall be entitled to language of the present Constitution, which will vote. Now, I suggest, Mr. Chairman, that there give occasion at least to cavil as to the real meanis a doubt, and possibly that there may be a diffi- ing of the clause which may be adopted if the culty arising from this change of language, because language of the committee shall be followed. I while it is the undoubted right of every State to therefore hope, sir, that the language of the Con-. declare who shall be citizens of that State and stitution of 1846 in this respect will be followed, who shall be entitled to vote, there has been at and that citizens shall be declared to have the least a question made, and so far as judicial right to vote without attempting to define a limit adjudication can have determined the matter, it to citizenship by the words to which I have has been determined that colored men are not referred. citizens of the United States. They are citizens Mr. KRUM-It is not my intention now, si of this State for the purpose of suffrage, they are as I have not done heretofore, to occupy much so defined and declared to be in the existing the time of this committee in discussion; and in Constitution. By several of the statutes of the discussing the amendment of the gentleman from State, negroes are called citizens of the State. Fulton [Mr. Smith], with the mere hearing of it But it will not have escaped the recollec- as read by the Secretary, it is difficult indeed t tion of the committee that this precise question, determine fully what that amendment is. There to wit: whether free negroes of African descent are some things, however, that I gather from the are, under the Constitution of the United States, amendment, and others that f gather from the citizens of the United States, was determined statement of the gentleman from Fulton [Mr in the case of Scott v. Sanford, which is Smith] himself, to which I am decidedly opp reported in 19 Howard's U. S.! Reports, by and for one I desire to enter my protest against the dicta, at least of Judge Taney and the I am in favor of everything that has a tendien judges who assented to the prevailing opinion to purif the elective francise. I am itnfavr 'r 60 .AI4 deal thing hing tt has a tendencyto destroy that purity its deathblow; and ifits death-blow cannot be struck I would deal it such a one as that under it it should at first stagger and afterward fall I am in favor substantially of the report of the Committee on Suffrage with regard to this question-that portion of the report which makes it a ground of challenge at the polls, applying equally to the person who buys as to the person who receives or sells. But I am opposed to that portion of the amendment of the gentleman from Fulton [Mr. Smith] which seeks to convict the person of bribery who sells his vote, and at the same time permits to go "scot-free" the individual who buys the vcte. And I do not agree with him, sir, that the individual who purchases is less guilty than the individual who sells. The individual who sells his vote, or the individuals who sell their votes, are usually individuals of limited means, limited intellect, aud who use the selling of their votes as a means of relief somewhat from temporary necessity. I would not make them criminals and permit at the same time the man with his pockets filled with money, the man with the intellect more fully developed, with the mind more fully expanded, to introduce not only the argument of a superior intellect, but the argument also of his money. I would make the ipan who buys the vote equally guilty with the individual who sells the vote; I would not offer a premium to the man who has the funds to make the purchase while they inflict a crime upon the individual who sold. I, sir, would make them both equally guilty, and I would make the selling of the one or the buying by the other equally the crime of bribery, and I would equally disfranchise both. This, sir, in my opinion, is the only way to reach the difficulty complained of. If the individual who, as a man, is permitted, without the fear of the law, to ply his vocation and make his temptations and induce the poor man to sell, who is there here to complain, who is there even to enforce the law? Is it the poor- man who has received the money? Certainly not, for he knows that the moment he opens his mouth he convicts himself, while he permits the individual who has bought his vote to go free. I believe these men, sir, generally, who use money, are men of intelligence. Those men know, if you put the enactment in the Constttitution making them both equally guilty, that the very moment they offer the temptation, the very moment they seek to purchase, the very moment they make the proposition, the very momeut they try to corrupt, that moment they lay themselves open to conviction for bribery, and disfranchisement forever. The fear of the law, the terror of the punishment, will induce them not to make the proposition, and by that means you let - the poor man, the man who usually sells, escape the temptation which otherwise is to be thrust upon hi:m And while I believe that bribery should be punished by disfranchisement, I believe that it should be punished in such a way as that, by the terror of the Constitution itself the:ver proposition which we submit to the peoe,; and which will pass triumphantly, should be efectuai s possible to remedy the evil. I *: O i ia position without the amendments be fore me, to make such amendments (if they were in order)as I would like to make but generally I have stated my views. I would permit both persons to be witnesses; nay, more, I would compel them to be witnesses, and while I state that I would compel them to be witnesses I am aware of the provision in the Constitution of the United States which prohibits any person from convicting himself. But there is nothingin the Constitution, either in the State of New York as it now stands, or in the Constitution of the United States as it now stands, which prohibits or renders incompetent from being a witness, an associate in crime. If an indictment should be preferred against the individual who bought, under our law, as it now stands, the individual who sold might be a witness. The objection that he was an incompetent witness would be of no avail, and he would be sworn; but the moment that you sought to prove by him that he had sold his vote to the individual who was indicted, that moment he would claim his privilege on the ground that it would tend to criminate and disgrace him. I would so frame the fundamental law (and I think the amendment of the gentleman substantially does that, as far as it goes), that the objection by the witness himself, or by his counsel, that the answer to the question would tend to criminate or disgrace him, should not be enterta-ined. Mr. SMITH - Will the gentleman allow me to interrupt him? Those very provisions are in the amendment. if the gentleman will read it. It provides that both parties may be witnesses, and that their evidence may be used in any'criminal prosecution against them. Mr. KRUM —I thank the gentleman for the suggestion. My statement already made, with reference to it, grew out of the fact that from the hasty reading from the desk of the Secretary, I did not understand it; some such amendment should be made, and if you make the application of disfranchisement equally to the person who buys as to the person who sells, I think we will remedy the evil, and the terror of the law will prevent its violation. The gentleman from Fulton [Mr. Smith] offered some amendments to that portion of the report of the committee relating to challenge at the polls for bribery, etc. Without the language of that amendment before me (and I desire to call the attention respectfully of the gentleman from Fulton [Mr. Smith] to it), I am fearful that the language in it goes so far as to prevent the necessary expenditure of money to excite the people to the performance of their duty to vote, to attend the polls. If it does not, then I would leave the amendment in that regard ms he has it; but I would be cautious with reference to the amendment in that particular, that,nothing may be incorporated in the Constitution that will prevent the necessary and proper awakening of the people, the use of the necessary funds for political meetings, and the use of the necessary funds to procure teams and bring out voters. I do not know that the amendment offered by him goes so far as to deprive them of that right, but as I gather from its hasty reading I fear it does. I would guard.lgainst that. - Mr. FULLEPI-I think sir, there should be very great re taken in adopting the amendment 4 S proposed by the gentleman from Fulton [Mr. the Constitution in reference to corruption at the Smith]. A fundamental law is a very solemn and polls? important instrument. We shall have no opportu-. Mr. FULLER-Yes, sir. nity to amend it again for perhaps twenty years to Mr. KRUM-And in reference to disfranchisecome. It is important, therefore, that not only ment for bribery? every phrase but every line and every word of Mr. FULLER-Yes, sir; and the amendment any amendment which we shall adopt should be of the gentleman from dayuga [Mr. C. 0. Dwight] carefully weighed and considered. There is no contemplates that; and if that part of the opportunity and there will be no opportunity amendment offered by him is not sufficient afforded us to give the amendment offered by the I am prepared to go further than that in that gentleman from Fulton [Mr. Smith] that careful respect, but in other respects this article calls for consideration which the importance of the subject no amendment, and experience has not demondeserves and demands. I have listened to it strated it needs any except by striking out the with all the attention that I was able to give it, property qualification for colored voters, and I am and I have as yet, sir, a very imperfect under- most decidedly in favor of striking that out, but I standing of it; and for that reason, if for no other, will not detain the Convention in giving any reaI shall be compelled to vote against it. sons for it now, as it has been already so fully I have before me the report of the Corn- discussed. mittee on Suffrage, and I can understand Mr. BICKFORD - I would inquire of the Chair that. I can offer amendments to it if I whether if this amendment proposed by the gendesire. I have also the amendment of the tlernan be adopted, it will take the place of the gentleman from Cayuga [Mr. C. C. Dwight] amendment offered by the gentleman from Caybefore me in print. I can understand that. I uga. have given to it a careful consideration. and I be- The CHAIRMAN- The Chair is of opinion it lieve it is better than the original proposition of would. the Committ-e on the Right of Suffrage, and I Mr. BICKFORD -With that understanding I shall vote for it accordingly. But so far as I do wish to call the attention of the committee to a understand the amendment of the gentleman from matter which is of considerable importance in reFulton [Mr. Smith] I~am opposed to some of its lation to the ease of conducting elections in which provisions. In the first place I am opposed to this amendment and also the report of the comthat provision in relation to idiots and lunatics, not mittee is in a great degree preferable to the because I am in favor of their voting, but because amendment of the gentleman from Cayuga I believe that a provision of that kind would be of [Mr. C. C. Dwight]. Under the report of no practical value if inserted in the Constitution, the committee and under the amendment of the because I believe there is no practical evil in that gentleman from Fulton [Mr. Smith] there will be regard which we are called upon to remedy. In but one box needed, as only one ballot will need the next place I am opposed to any new restric- to be given; because if a man is a voter at all tions on the right of suffrage, and accordingly lie is a voter for every officer to be elected. I am opposed to any new restriction upon the Under the Constitution as it now is, as copied right of adopted citizens to vote. I am opposed by the gentleman from Cayuga [Mr. C. C. Dwight] in that regard not only to the provision sought to in his amendment, it will be necessary to have a be insertei by the Committeo on the Right of multiplicity of boxes and a multiplicity of ballots, Suffrage, but also to the modified form of that and the electors cannot vote near as fast, and there provision, which- the amendment of the gentleman will be a great inconvenience attending it; and for from Fulton [Mr. Smith] contemplates. I do not that reason it is highly desirable that the main believe there is any necessity for any change in features of the report made by the committee the Constitution in this respect. I am in favor should be adhered to rather than the present Conof the four months' provision, but I am stitution, which makes a multiplicity of boxes and unwilling to put any new restrictions on the right ballots necessary. I merely call attention to that of adopted citizens to vote. I belong to what is fact, as nobody else has mentioned it, and it seems called the majority of this Convention, and I know to me to be a matter of considerable importance. that adopted citizens, as a general rule, vote in a Mr. OPDYKE -I desire to say a single word body, almost in solid column, against the party to in reference to the last clause of the amendment which I belong; yet in the consideration of this offered by the gentleman from Fulton [Mr. Smith], subject I trust I am able to rise above considera- that clause which is designed to suppress corruptions of partisanship. I am opposed to putting tion at the polls. If I have correctly apprehended new restrictions upon them. I shall therefore vote it, it is this: that he proposes to punish the party against not only the report of the committee selling his vote and proposes to exculpate the requiring a thirty days' citizenship, but I shall party purchasing it. He also proposes to bring vote against the amendment of the gentleman them both upon the witness stand, but not to from Fulton [Mr. Smith], and I shall vote for the hold them liable to punishment for any amendment offered by the gentleman from Cayuga facts that may be developed in their [Mr. C. C. Dwight], and accepted by the gentle. testimony. Now, sir, I think there is no man-from Ontario [Mr. Folger]. I believe that we more important duty that this Convention hat to had better adhere to the Constitution as it is, perform than to make an honest, earnest effortto except so far as experience has clearly demon- purify the ballot. It is the very foundation of our strated it needs amendment. political power, and if that be corrupted the le Mr. KRUM-I would like to ask the gentleman superstructure will be corrupted. For myself, a question. Would you not put some clause in think I would prefer to hold them bothliable, a& 476 ntth both parties, and also to bring them both Fulton [Mr. Smith] from that of the gentleman upon the witness stand and to render them respon- from Cayuga [Mr. C. C. Dwight]. The proposition Bible and liable to punishment for the facts which of the gentleman from Cayuga [Mr. C. C. Dwight], they themselves may state. The gentleman in which is the present Constitution, requires a f'ont of me [Mr. Krum] has said that the Consti- residence for some period in the county where the tutitn of the United States stands in our way. I election is to be had, and where the voter seeks beg to remind the gentleman that he is mistaken to give his ballot; there are a large number of on that point. Doubtless most of the members officers elected by counties, and it is very proper of this Convention know that that prohibition and very important, in my view, to have a resia simply relates to the power of the government dence in the county, as has always been required, of the United States. We have a perfect still continued to be required. 1 hope we right to put in our own Constitution a shall therefore adhere to this proposition. provision compelling offenders against the law to This, I understood the Chair, is to be put by itself. take the witness stand and bear the consequences It is a part of the proposition presented by the of the testimony they there may be compelled to gentleman from Cayuga [Mr. C. (. Dwight]. give. Therefore in regard to offenses of this na- Mr. GRAVES-I understand the proposition ture,.the selling and the purchasing of votes, I now before the Convention is the amendment would hold them both liable to punishment-the offered by the gentleman from Cayuga [Mr. C. C. party selling his vote I would disfranchise forever; Dwight), which in language or in effect, if not the party purchasing, such punishment as the in precise language, is like the old Constitution, Convention or State through its Legislature in its and the amendment offered by the gentleman wisdom may decide. But I would punish'both. I from Fulton [Mr. Smith], differs in some material hope therefore that an amendment similar to the points from that. I have not been able to learn, latter clause of that of the gentleman from Ful- sitting here, what that precise difference is. I do ton [Mr. Smith] will meet the favor of the Con- not see the wisdom, Mr. Chairman, of changing vention. the original Constitution so far as regards the Mr. SEYMOUR - I would inquire whether the qualification of citizenship. I have heard no question is not upon the first proposition of the complaint of that in the rural districts. amendment offered by the gentleman from Fulton The question seems to be well settled. We know [Mr. Smith]. precisely how to understand that part of the ConThe CHAIRMAN-The Chair understands the stitution. Is it wise or proper for this Convention gentleman from Kings [Mr. Barnard] called for a to make a new provision in that particular, when division, and therefore the question will be upon this one is so well understood? The necessities the propositions separately. of the people do not require it; some misconstrucMr. SEYMOUR - The first part of the proposi- tion may be given to it, and we shall not be as tion of the amendment of the gentleman from well off in that change of the Constitution as we Fulton [Mr. Smith], as I understand it, relates to are under the old; therefore, let us abide by the the citizenship in general terms, and the residence old until time and experience satisfies us it is of the person who is to vote. I think it would necessary to make a change. be very unsafe for this committee, without having Mr. CONGER-I would like to inquire of the had the opportunity of critically examining the lan- gentleman from Fulton [Mr. Smith], if in preguage in lwhich this proposition is presented, to paring his amendment he has considered the adopt it. I have looked at it and compared it question whether the limitation of the right of with the proposition proposed by the gentleman citizens for ten days does not come within the from Cayuga [Mr. C. C. Dwight], which is known purview of the new amendments now pending, to the committee to be the present Constitution supposed to be about passing. Article 14 of on this subject. And as was remarked by his amendments to the Constitution, if I understand colleague the gentleman from Cayuga [Mr. it in its plain significance, forbids any abridgtathbun] just now, it is highly important ment of the right of a citizen of the United States that we should retain as far as possible to vote at any election. The phraseology is this: the language of the present Constitution on "But when the right to vote at any election every subject. We have that language before for the choice of electors for President and Viceus; it has stood the test for twenty years; it has President of the United States, representatives been examined and re-examined by the ablest in Congress, the executive and judicial officers minds in the State, judicial and otherwise, some- of a State, or the members of the Legislature times receiving judicial construction from our thereof, is denied to any of the male inabitants highest tribunals, and I do not desire in any par- of such State, being twenty-one years of age and titular to depart from that instrument un- citizens of the United States, or in any 'wise ssit be necessary to make an amend- abridged, except for participation in rebellion or ent~ to cure some existing evil. Now I other crime, the basis of representation therein understand that in this, proposition no pro- shall be reduced in the proportion which the numsion is made with regard to preserving the ber of such male citizens shall.bear to the whole Prity of elections; Such a provision can be number of male citizens twenty-one years of age dded as a separate proposition to the amendment in such State." f the gentleman from Cayuga [Mr. C,C. Dwight], Noow, I wish for information, supposing that the and then we shall have it in a distinct and definite gentleman has given this question a quasi-judicial fI which weo: can understand. There are, it inestigation. I wish to know whether the limitt tIke:,:somes important dfferences in the ation that he proposes of ten days for the present,: i tte: proposiion of the gentleman from and thirty days in the years to come, of the right of a naturalized citizen, or of a citizen who be- ment to the Federal Constitution already referred comes twenty-one years of age but one day prior to, all persons born or naturalized in the United to the day of election, does not abridge that right States are declared to be citizens of the United by the rule which he lays down? I suppose it is States. It is true also that in that amendment the intention of the majority of this Convention there is held out the idea that a citizen of the to adhere not only to the spirit but to the true United States has the right as such to vote for offimeaning and interpretation of the article, and not cers in the State of New York. As I have already to.undertake to evade it or abridge the right said, in my judgment every person who votes for simply on the ground that they are willing to an office within the gift of the people in this Stat abide by the penalty imposed by Congress in the votes not as a citizen of the United States article. I think the question is one of grave im- but as a citizen of the State of New York, and in port, and as I have not examined it carefully, I my opinion the people of this State have the right would like to have an advisory opinion upon it. to deny to citizens of the United States as well as Mr. SMITH- I would say, for the information to all other persons the right to vote in this State of the gentleman, that I have made no special in- except under such restriction and qualification as vestigation of that question. My object, as I they may choose to impose and require. If the stated before, was mainly to provide for purifying intimation thrown out by the gentleman the elective franchise; and, looking at the report from Rockland [Mr. Conger] that all perof the committee and comparing it with the amend- sons, male citizens of the United States ment offered by the gentleman from Cayuga [Mr. as such, and by virtue of such citizenship will be C. C. Dwight], I preferred the provisions of the entitled, under the amendment referred to, to vote original report, and took that as a basis. 1 have in this State, the labors of this Convention will be given no special examination to the other clauses entiely useless. On such principle our work of the section, and did not intend to change it ma- will be of no avail, because we are here for the terially, but simply to add such provisions as very purpose, armong others, of prescribing the would effect the purpose I had in view. Perhaps conditions upon which individuals shall vote in this will be a sufficient explanation. this State, and the report of the Committee on Mr. BURRILL -The remark which has been Suffrage as originally reported, and the same remade by the gentleman from Rockland [Mr. port as it is proposed to be amended by the Conger], and the interrogatory put by him to the amendments of the gentleman from Caynga [Mr. gentleman from Fulton [Mr. Smith], present a C. 0. Dwight], and also by the amendments proquestion which this Convention must at some posed by the gentleman from Fulton [Mr. Smith],' stage pass upon, and I had supposed that full con- prescribe that citizens of the United States shall be sideration had already been given to that subject by restricted, and limited in regard to their right to those members of this Convention who are pre- vote, and that they shall not vote except under the pared to vote in' favor of the report of the com- restrictions and qualifications in such report conmittee as amended by the gentleman from Cayuga tained. There is no force whatever in the point sug[Mr. C. C. Dwight]. The question put by the gested by the gentleman from Rockland [Mr. Congentleman from Rockland to the gentleman from ger]. I claim and insist that we have the right to Fulton was whether or not he had considered the prescribe for ourselves what persons shall be adeffect of the proposed fourteenth amendment to mitted to membership in the society or community the Federal Constitution, dated June, 1866, and in which we live; in other words, who shall be adwhich it is claimed has been adopted by some of mitted to be citizens of this State, and also to prethe States. The amendment referred to pre- scribe the terms and conditions upon which such scribes a penalty for restricting the right of a persons shall be so admitted. I submit, that the citizen of the United States to vote in a State at any action of this Convention in thus acting upon the election for the choice of electors, representatives question of suffrage is perfectly proper. and that in Congress, executive and judicial officers of such we are in the right line of our duty. We and we State, and for members of the Legislature thereof, alone have the right to prescribe upon what terms and declares that any restriction or abridgment persons whether they be in name or in fact, citiof the right of suffrage which may be imposed by zens of the United States, shall exercise the right any State shall be followed by an abridgment of of voting in the State of New York; and I hope the right of such State to representation in the that no one in his action in this Convention will Federal Congress and by the reduction of that be influenced by the consideration that we are right of representation in the same proportion trenching upon a right which is or will be accorde Which the number of male persons so deprived of by the proposed fourteenth amendment of the the right to vote shall bear to the whole number of Federal Constitution to persons thereby claiming male citizens twenty-one years of age in such to be citizens of the United States. We sioul State. I suppose that every man who votes in declare and act upon the principle that thepeople, this State for any office within the gift of the of this State and we as their representativea ha people of the State votes not by virtue of any the right to prescribe and impose ationsri, ' citiznahip of the United States, but votes by vir- qualifications and conditions to the right to v:t,' tue of his citizenship and as a citizen of the State and that all who desire to exer.tse it rht of New York, and that this Convention, as repre- within the limits of this State mustL. a S i senting the people has the right to restrict and citizens of this State and not as: citiz the limit such right to vote in such manner as t it may l Ui ted States. deem wise or expedient, and that the right of this Mr. CONGER- With regard te h i;,Stat inp that regard cannot beinterfered with. It tation as given at tui tme I o no d i0=g tisrue, ir, tiht under the troposed 14th amend admittedtat I WIhad iot '' Ibisl toi g i s 478 question a thorough examination, undertake at this time to say what I think should be ex catltdra the interpretation to be given to it. But I fear that no gentleman will be able to dispose of this question so readily, for, in the first place, all these persons who are declared to be citizens of the United States are also declared to be citizens of the State in which they reside, and there is no opportunity for any discrimination between a person as a citizen of the United States and a citizen of the State in which he resides. The fact of his being a citizen of the United States under the Constitution, and as by that article of the proposed amendment, and coupled with the fact that he is residing in the State, makes him a citizen of that State if I understand the force and meaning of that term. Now, when you come to the second article, it is clearly the intention of the supreme law of the land to set down a rule by which persons may vote, although it is stated as an alternative between obedience to the law and paying a penalty for disobedience, yet I apprehend if the question comes before the highest tribunals, the courts would be obliged to say That the United States, in prescribing the qualifications of its citizens for the purpose of exercising the electoral vote, should in good faith maintain the rule in accordance with the rule laid down, otherwise they would be obliged, it seems to me, to hold that the setting forth of the rule was merely a setting forth of the penalty, and that the insertion of the penalty was nothing more than an appendage to a rule that could be violated. No fair interpretation of the Constitution, it seems to me, can ever be given by a tribunal discussing or deciding upon this question dispassionately. I have a difficulty in my own mind with regard to the amendment I propose to submit at some future stage in the discussion of the committee, and I wish very conscientiously and carefully to avoid anything like an infraction of the rule laid down; still I think sooner or later this question must be discussed by some of the abler minds accustomed to deal with constitutional questions in this Convention. I apprehend they must tell us clearly and unequivocally that it was the intention m the article to lay down a clear and uniform rule by which citizens should be entitled to vote as citizens of the United States primarily, and citizens of the State in which they reside, secondarily; but to vote by a uniform rule, and that rule to be preserved. Now, I state so much because I wish light and a true interpretation, and because if the light come in time it may very materially vary some of the propositions I desire to submit. But I cannot think the honorable gentleman from New York [Mr. Burrill] has not yet set forth the question with that care which would enable him to say that it was the intention of the framers of that amendment to allow a State to discriminate as to the qualifications of its own citizens in the rigt of elections, as against citizens of the United Sate unMer the Constitution, for if the States av got hat power under that article I would liketo kow what it is worth. MrUPROSSI-l propose to strike out ten, and insert thity A A- Ci inform the gentleman 4at t7wo proposktions are now pending.. Mr. BARKER-Suppose the proposition is voted' down, and the committee adopt the resolution of the gentleman from Cayuga [Mr. C. C. Dwight], will it be in order to move to amend that part of the section by inserting thirty days in place of ten? The CHAIRMAN- The Chair is of opinion that the committee have it in their power until tomorrow night at half-past seven o'clock to amend the proposition as many times as they please. Mr. ROBERTSON -I would like to move an amendment if it is in order. The CHAIRMAN-The Chair has informed the gentleman on the opposite side of the house [Mr. Prosser], and will now inform the gentleman [Mr. Robertson] that no amendment is now in order. Mr. GOULD-I should just like to inquire one thing; whether this amendment of the gentleman from Fulton [Mr. Smith] takes place before the 1st of January. 1869. The CHAIRMAN-It is after the year 1868. Mr. GOULD-Then it cannot be before the 1st of January, 1869. Tho question was then put upon the first part of the proposition of the gentleman from Fulton [Mr. Smith] which was declared lost, on a division, by a vote of 20 to 85. Mr. BICKFORD-Is the whole amendment lost? The CHAIRMAN-The Chair will inform the gentleman that a division having been called for only one-half of the amendment is lost. The CHAIRMAN announced the question to be on the second portion of the proposition of the gentleman from Fulton [Mr. Smith]. Mr. RATHBUN-1 wish to inquilre whether that section now read is offered by way of amendment to the section offered by the gentleman from Cayuga [Mr. C. C. Dwight], or whether it relates to a subsequent section in the report of the committee? The CHAIRMAN - The Chair is of the opinion that it is an amendment to the proposition of the gentleman from Cayuga [Mr. C. C. Dwight], and cannot be intended in any other way. The question was then put on the second part of the proposition of the gentleman from Fulton [Mr. Smith], which was declared lost. The question was then put on the third part of the proposition of the gentleman from Fulton [Mr. Smith], which was declared lost. Mr. DUGANNE -I offer the following amendment: The SECRETARY proceeded to read the amendment as follows: Insert at close of first section: And the Legislature may provide that, ii the registration of voters, no person shall be registered who has been twice convicted of felonious offenses in any court of the State, and who there. after, at the time of registration, shall be notoriously, professionally and persistently engaged in the violation of criminal laws and in sharing the profits of felonious practices and pursuits. Mr. DUGANE - Before any action is taken upon that resolution I wish to say a few words. It may not be known, but it certainly ought to bea known, by gentlemen who represent the city of New Yorthat there: isa large cla, a very 479 large class, a class large enough to sway the elections of New York, who are professionally engaged in violating the laws of the State. There are on the books of the police in the city of New York men who are known and registered as professional law-breakers, thieves, and other notorious criminals, men who are engaged from one year's end to another il violating and defying the laws. Every vote of one of these is a threat to a corrupt legislator, or a bribe to an unjust judge. It is well known, and I need only refer to the police records, I need only refer to the commissioners of the police m the city of New York, that there are at least twenty-five hundred men known as violators of law, who at every election, vote on the average four times each, and who, therefore, have the power of swaying ten thousand votes against the civilized and virtuous portion of the community. Now, Mr. Chairman, it may be very proper to exclude the pure and virtuous woman from a share in the administration of our political affairs; it may be very magnanimous to prevent the man, whose only misfortune is his poverty, from sharing in the ballot, and in the administration of public business; it may be proper to make other restrictions-but, gentlemen, I ask you whether it is not more necessary, more vital to the existence and permanence of a virtuous commonwealth, that these criminal classes who are known, who are convicted, who are professionally reputed and believed to be violators of raw, and to be always engaged in a raid and a war against society, should be deprived of the power to outweigh, by their votes, the good and virtuous men in society? I appeal to the good sense, I appeal to the morality of every gentleman on this floor, if we are not in danger of corruption, if we are not suffering from corruption every day and every year of our lives in those great cities where the ballot box as has been said by one of the gentlemen, the chairman [Mr. Greeley] of the Suffrage Committee, is in danger of becoming a "spittoon," but where, in my opinion, the ballot box is in danger of becoming a source of poison to the whole community. I do not wish this question slighted. I will not have it slighted on this floor. It is a more vital question than many on which we have expended torrents of eloquence; it is a question which goes home to every moral man, to every christian. There are men in the city of New York, who are engaged in demoralizing the whole community, keepers of notorious establishments, which are fountains of corruption for the youth of our land; there are men who are engaged and are sharing in the ill-gotten gains of gambling, men who hold out their lures and rivet their temptations on the young men not only of the city but of all the State- I say these men should have some check upon their powers in the State. If we cannot wholly deprive themn of those powers, why, at least we should refuse them a registry at such time as they are known, positively and notoriously known, to be engaged in breaking laws. I ask, Mr. Chairman, that this question be not passed over in silence, or by the mere action of a rising or a ta v 0e vote. I wish gentlemen to diase it. If there are gentlemen whofear theaWi men's voes I want to know it. If they hte hlijpoirs '*this floor I w:tt 8i tsee t r In I The question was then put on the proposition of the gentleman from New York [Mr. Duganne], which was declared lost. Mr. ANDREWS -I offer the following amendment to the proposition of the gentleman from Cayuga [Mr. C. C. Dwight]. The SECRETARY proceeded to read the amendment as follows: Strike out "ten" in the second line and insert "thirty." Also, "of the United States," in line three. Also, add at the end of the first section as follows: "Provided also, That until the first day of January, 1869, a citizen who shall have been a citizen for ten days, and is otherwise qualified, shall be entitled to voto." So that the first section shall read as follows: Every male citizen of the age of twenty-one years, who shall have been for thirty days a citizen and an inhabitant of this State one year next preceding an election, and for the last four months a resident of the county where he may offer his vote shall be entitled to vote at such election in the election district of which he shall be at the time a resident, and not elsewhere, for all officers that now are or hereafter may be elective by the people; but such citizen shall have been for thirty days next preceding the election a resident of the district from which the officer is to be chosen for whom he offers his vote. Provided, That in time of war no elector in the actual military service of the United States, in the army or navy thereof, shall be deprived of his vote by reason of his absense from the State; and the Legislature shall have power to provide the manner in which, and the time and place at which such absent elector may vote, and for the canvass and return of their votes in the election districts in which they respectively reside, or otherwise. Provided also, That until the first day of January, 1869, a citizen, who shallhave been a citizen for ten days, and is otherwise qualified, shall be entitled to vote. Mr. FOLGER - Is it in my power to accept that amendment? The CHAIRMAN-It is the opinion of the Chair that it is in the power of the gentleman from Ontario [Mr. Folger] to accept it. Mr. FOLGER -I wish to accept the amendment, not that I coincide with every phrase in it, and will vote for some amendment that will alter some portion of it, but for the sake of hastening the proceedings; and inasmuch as this amendment meets the difficulty set forth by the gertleman from Onondaga [Mr. Andrews] in his former amendment, I accept it. Mr. McDONALD -I offer the followinram - ment. The SECRETARY proceeded to read the i'ndment. as follows: Strike out all of the remainder of first sentenae after the words "district from whech," eto, insert instead, " the election district fit 'whl) e offers his vote." Mr. McDONALD- The: oinly chaita t makes is to strike out the atise with, r vin here lr as always beni ste.r/on r. fhtllows, to wit:" Antd sue- b cien whto t ei 480 have been for thirty days next preceding the election a resident of the district in which the officer is to be chosen for whom he offers his vote." It will be, altered so as to read as follows: "But such citizen shall have been for thirty days preceding an election a resident of the election district in which he offers his vote." It changes the clause as it now is, which requires that he shall be a resident of that district in which the offier is to be chosen, to a clause which simply requires that he shall be a resident of the election district in which he offers his vote. The only object I have is to present the ques. tion which is presented by the report of the committee, tq wit: that any person who votes shall have been for thirty days a citizen resident of the election district in which he offers his vote. That is the object of the amendment. Mr. FOLGER - Why do you want it?.Mr. MDONALD -I am asked why I want it. The reason I want it is this: in order to protect and determine who are voters. If we require, as we propose to, that a person shall be a citizen for thirty days, we should also require that the person shall be a resident of thle district for thirty days. We have heretofore determined who are voters by registry and otherwise. In this way we can determine by the registry whether a person is a voter or not. I am aware that it sometimes deprives a person if he moves from one election district to another. But, let me add, the same objection also is made to the requirement of four months' residence ini a county; and, as far as I know, that rule deprives more men of voting than a residence of thirty days in an election district would. I want it for the same reason that the former Constitution requires a residence of four months in the county and one year in the State. Simply, so that there may be time and opportunity to regulate and determine who are voters. Mr. C.. DWIGHT- The amendment offered by the gentleman from Ontario [Mr. McDonald] would be entirely inconsistent with another part of the article he seeks to amend, to which his attention cannot have been called, which provides, in the language ofthe present Constitution, that every such person as is described in the first part of the section shall be entitled to vote at such election in the election district of which he shall at the time be a resident and not elsewhere. It requires no preeent residence in the election district, but authorizes a man to vote where he is an actual resident. It simply requires a thirty days' residece in the official district, if I may so express myself-that is, in the district in which and for which the officer tfor whom he offers his vote is to be elected. That is, if a man lives in an election district in the first assembly district of iCapug county, andb he moves into another electin district n the same assembly district, he can vt. s.till for m roember f ly But:if he ra one: asembtly district to another aie district, he is deprived of his right to vote or member of assembly, becau the Coastit 0nire tres a thirty days residence in the dis'tit, w wiet, the oifer r is to be chosen for whom owaof a i a&rsas it a is. 71 e, from a district in which a party may be strong into a district where it is weak. Mr. COMSTOCK -I regard the amendment offered by the gentleman from Ontario [Mr. McDonald] as very immaterial, and I do not think it ought to prevail. It requires, if I understand it, that a voter shall for thirty days be a resident in the election district where he offers his vote. Now, with the other provision to be incorporated into the article on the elective franchise, there seems to be no reason for that requirement. A man the day before the election mnoves across the street. That is no reason why he should not vote for alderman so long as lie is in the same aldermanic district. This is not colonizing a voter. He is still in the same official district. So a man may move across the highway the day.before a town meeting, and thus find himself in another election district; but he is still in his town. Is that any reason why he should not vote for supervisor or for justice of the peace of his town? I apprehend not. He may move a short distance, but not out of his assembly district, just before the last day of registration. That, I think, is no reason why he should not be registered in his new election district and vote for Senator or for Governor or for Lieutenant-Governor. Such is the meaning of the Constitution as it now is, and such is also the meaning of. the substitute offered by the gentlemen from Cayuga [Mr. C. C. Dwight] and I think it ought to remain so, and that the amendment proposed to the substitute should not prevail. Mr. GREELEY — The reason of requiring a thirty days' residence is because in one case the voter is in a district where he is known, and in the other case he is in a district where his right to vote is totally unknown. It seems to me that an elector may delay by one day his moving in order to save to himself the right of suffrage and not move on the morning of election or within three or four days of election. We cannot in the great city of New York tell who is entitled to vote. If a man may say "I will just move into this district this morning and have my name put on the registry," you will have gigantic frauds so long as you have men who move into a district where you do not allow time to have their claim to vote properly scrutinized. If you do not have that time, you simply allow a man to go into a district immediately before election, by some means get his name on the registry, and thus defraud the legal voters out of their rights. It is notorious that there are at election times what are known as " repeaters,"men who make it a business to go around a4d vote in different election districts and are paid foo doing so, and this provision reported by the commtitee is intended to cut them off., The question was then put on the amendment of Mr. McDonald, and it was declared lost. Mr. CONGER' l-s it in order to offer another amendment. The CIHAIRM-AN-An amendment to the amendment is now in order, Mr. CO ER-I offer the following series of poposit hihI wish thave onsidered an 'oted un atel ts ru sera I th S~lltfAB^^oo~eed ~ mdtha rof 481 ositions offered by Mr. Conger, in words as follows: " 1. Every male citizen who shall have been an inhabitant of this State for one year next preceding an election, and a resident of the election district where he may offer his vote, including every white citizen of the age of twenty-one years, and every person of color who has heretofore been admitted to the elective franchise, shall be entitled to vote at such election in said district, and not elsewhere, for all officers elective by the people. " 2. But no person of color shall ever be admitted to participate in or enjoy the functions of sovereignty in this State, so as to hold any executive, judicial or representative office designated in this Constitution. " 3. Nor shall any person of color, excepting such as have heretofore been admitted to the elective franchise, be entitled to vote upon any Constitution of this State, or any amendment to the same now or hereafter to be adopted. " The Legislature may if this right be approved by a separate vote of the sovereign electors of this State. admit all persons of color to the exercise of the elective franchise except as above provided." The CHAIRMAN-The Chair must rule that' under the resolution which has been adopted by the Couvelition the last proposition just read by the Secretary, cannot now be received. Mr CONGER-I merely say in regard to that, that the clause was framed before the committee or the Convention had adopted any rule, and secondly, that it proposes to place the matter in the body of the Constitution, and does not provide for any separate submission. The CHAIRMAN - Does the Chair understand the gentleman [Mr. Conger] to appeal from its decision? Mr. CONGER-No, sir, I only wish to explainThe CHAIRMAN-Under the rule adopted, the proposition cannot be considered in Committee of the Whole. The question was then put on the first proposition offered by Mr. Conger, and it was declared lost. The question was then put on the second proposition of Mr. Conger, and it was declared lost. The question was then put on the third proposition of Mr. Conger, and it was declared lost. Mr. COMSTOCK offered the following amendment: Strike out in section one the words "for all officers that now are or hereafter may be elected by the people." Mr. COMSTOCK -The reason of offering the amendment is this: the report of the Committee on the Right of Suffrage defines the elective franchise to be the right to vote for all officers elected by the people. The substitute offered by the gentleman from Cayuga [Mr. C. C. Dwight, now under consideration, uses the same language in that respect and both follow the language of the Constitution of 1846. Nevertheless I think there is a certain looseness and redundancy of expression which may be very inconvenient in rryring on the government, and may be even m b ousi ad fatal. 0Those delegates ho wer 61 members of the Legislature at its last session (ari I believe there are several on this floor) will appreciate the necessity of this amendment. The question was raised during the session of thie last Legislature, as to who could vote for delegates to the Constitutional Convention. The right of suffrage by the Constitution is conferred upon those who could vote for officers of the Statethe elective officers of the State. It was said in the discussions of the Legislature that a delegate to the Convention was not an officer of the State, and the question arose with the Legislature whether those persons only who were entitled to vote under the Constitution could vote in the election of delegates, or whether the Constitution was not at all the rule of suffrage in such a case, and whether the Legislature had not the power to say who should and who should not be entitled to vote. I believe I am correct in saying that one house entertained the opinion that the Constitution afforded a rule of suffrage for that occasion. The other branch of the Legislature seemed to be of a different opinion, and the result was a compromise resting upon no principle whatever. The Legislature did not incorporate into the body of the electors any new class, but by the adoption of a test oath it subtracted from the body of the electors another class who Were entitled to vote under our present Constitution and laws. As I have said, the right of suffrage was defined in our Constitution as the right to vote for the elective officers of the State. How will the question be when one, two or three years from now an important fundamental amendment to the Constitution of the State shall be submitted to the popular vote. I apprehend that most people, certainly very many people, will suppose that the Constitution will have nothing to do with such elective officers, because the term is "officers elected by the people of this State.' Suppose again, that question shall be raised, and it probably will be raised in our day, on our voting for delegates to another Constitutional Convention, what is the rule of suffrage?-what will it be on this most important, fundamental occasion? Will it be controlled by the Constitution, or will it be in the power of the Legislature to say that such men may vote and other men may not vote; will it be in the power of the Legislature to submit the important, fundamental questions which may lie at the very foundation of civil liberty with reference to the suffrage of a class? I suppose it is quite plain that there ought to be an uniform rule of suffrage for all occasions and all times when the popular will is to be consulted, and if my amendment receives the favor of the committee the Constitution will then simply provide that all male inhabitants of this State, having certaii qualifications, shall be entitled to vote, not t vote for elective officers merely, but upon li occasions when the will of the people is to consulted. Mr. FOLGER - If the gentleman fr:oem. r; daga [Mr. Comstock], has clearly stated thepolt f hia amendment, and I think he ha, it doesec4 touch the ground upon which the: at tt;:o at^bA the: alling f this Convention was suht: T ei: ture ^ true.thatit. was sewh 482 r hiNted at in discusson, that a delegat to this xonvention was not an ' fficer" within the purview of the Constitution as it now exists, and that therefore the Legislature had a right to give the choice of, or give the privilege of voting for, delegates to others than those empowered by the Constitution to vote for officers. But the main ground-I believe the true ground, and the revailing ground upon which the right of the Legislature to enlarge the body of electors for delegates to this Convention was placed in the Senate of this State, was this: that when we came to the formation of a new Constitution, it was a semi - revolutionary matter; and it was the people, the whole people, who once more undertook the work of reorganizing their fundamentallaw, and that the ruling class that is talked of in this Convention, to my mind so erroneously, was not the only class to be consulted on such an occasion; for it was not in the ruling class, in whom rested the right to rearrange the frame of government, but in the whole people resided the sovereignty and from whom came tlhe right of government, and they were to be consulted as to this new form of the organic law, and it was for them to determine who were to be called together to frame it. It was held that there is not of right a class who alone can rule; that to rule is a privilege conferred. And if a privilege, then it can be recalled by the power that gave it. That power is the whole people, and when a new Constitution is to be formed in which is to be laid down again, to whom shall be given the privilege of ruling, the whole people should be consulted. It was upon this ground, and not upon the narrow ground stated by the gentleman from Onondaga [Mr. Comstock], that a delegate was not an officer.: Constitution is the work of the whole people, and the whole people are to be consulted, men and women, white and black. That was the ground upon which it was put, and that was the ground which prevailed in the Senate of this State, bt which did not prevail in the Assembly There was, therefore, a conference committee btween the two houses, and a proposition ot the Senate was yielded to secure, as it was tought, other iiportant provisions in the bill. The aendment of the gentleman from Onondaga fir Comstock] does not reach that position; for, RitL its true, that in going back to form a new Constitution, e go back to the people as the people,:they have the right to say, when they tear up the foundation work of the organization of sciety, who shall be the workmen. They have the right to be consulted and to take hold and asist in laying the new ground-work. Then thing fin this Constitution, however stringent ra be its provisions, will protect and guard iflt that. Nor is this State lacking in precedetf*o ithe action of the Senate last winter. The a:t the Legislature under which the Constitutio Convention of 1821 was conveed. elarged th: ^ iranchtse r he election of delegates t:^t Conventio, and whereas it was given:U na ':-iti:^cofi class befre, that act.; e to gi. ar atiou in the> format 0hl U: iVtutfoV anolther andare tion, and not a class, which are falsely called the "'ruling class." There is no ruling class. The men who vote, the ' electors' as they are called in the Constitution. are but delegates, depositaries, of the sovereignty of the people, and as such they may be called upon to surrender and give up that right to those who gave it temporarily to them. A natural right to vote has been talked about here-a natural right to participate in the government, for both are synonymous, as the only way in which one can ordinarily participate in the government is by a vote. Does the natural right exist in any man from the foundation of the world to rule my action by vote? By no means. There is a natural duty devolving upon every man to rule his own action, but no natural right in any manner to rule the action of his neighbor. It is only by concession and by yielding and convention that any man has the right to vote, and so to control the actions of another man. It was upon this principle that the Senate proceeded, and the amendment of the gentleman from Onondaga [Mr. Comstock] does not reach that principle. Mr. HALE - I wish to offer a very few observations in support of the amendment offered by the gentleman from Onondaga [Mr. Comstock]. [ think it proper for two or three reasons not mentioned by the gentleman who offered it. In the first place, it strikes me that this first section is practically ignored by us in the election of certain officers in the State. The provision of the Constitution is that every elector shall be entitled to vote for all officers that now are or hereafter may be elected by the people. It is known that in this Convention thirty-two members of it who are sitting here were elected not by the votes of the people, for all the people were not permitted to vote for the thirty-two delegates at large, but the vote was confined to sixteen for each of the parties. It may be said that in this case these delegates were not officers, but I don't agree with that. I think, they are in fact officers under the meaning of this section, and the same rule prevails in regard to inspectors of election; three of them are chosen, but each elector votes for only two. And so also with regard to those justices of the peace who are designated to sit as justices of the sessions. Although two are to be elected, the people are not practically permitted to vote for both those offices, but only one. And so with the supervisors of the city 9f New York the same rule prevails. Therefore, [ submit this is a provision that is now practically ignored in our elections in this State. Another reason I would suggest why it should be stricken out is one that perhaps may not commend itself to the majority of the members of this Coiivention, but which I feel bound to state. I had t]e honor of introducing a resolution some time sitce, proposing a division of the electors of this State for the purpose of the election of Senators and members of Assembly, prescribing a different qualifcation as to length of residence in the eletion district, for voters to the Senate from that whi prevails with regard to voters for memer of Assembl Of course, if such a provisin should adopted it would be itconsistent With this present section. But I would j iu t respectfully th t prxactially chaige the rights of any sitizen, aud 483 the effect will be simply that this section will state that every male citizen possessing these qualifications is a voter entitled to vote without showing for what offices he shall be entitled to vote. And if it is stricken out it will not be obligatory upon the Convention to make any distinction such as I mentioned, nor will the motion to make such a distinction render the Constitution inconsistent with itself. Another reason is that oftentimes propositions are submitted to the people not involving the election of any officer-such as the proposition to amend the Constitution, and a vote upon the submission to the people of that amendment. So, frequently other propositions may be submitted to the people which require a voto, and if we construct the section so it will read simply that every male citizen possessing these requisites will be entitled to vote, it will give him the right under the Constitution to vote not only for officers to be elected but upon all propositions of any kind whatever which may be submitted to the people. Mr. BARKER —I hope this amendment will not prevail. By inserting this provision in the Constitution we take away from the Legislature all power to make the qualifications of voters, and declare that the Legislature shall not say what class of citizens may vote for officers which are to be chosen. It is a guard against party action in the future after the Constitution is adopted. If this amendment prevails, then the Legislature can at any time say what class of citizens may vote at an election. And we shall have the road open for the exhibition tlat has once been made in this State, that officers may be chosen to discharge high functions without the citizens having the right to vote for or against them. I claim it is in opposition to the elective principle for two men to come before the people, and they not have the power to vote for one and against the other. Mr. SPENCER - I move that the committee do now rise, report progress, and ask leave to sit again. The question was put upon the motion of Mr. Spencer and it was declared to be lost, on a division, by a vote of 48 to 48. Mr. RATHBUN -I rise to call the attention of the committee to the fact that the proposition to strike out in the provision referred to by the gentleman from Onondaga [Mr. Andrews] is a provision which has been in the Constitution for the last twenty years, and we never have had any trouble with it, and I hope we will not try to get rid of it. The question was put upon the amendment of the gentleman from Onondaga [Mr. Andrews], which was declared to be lost. Mr. LANDON offered the following amendment: Strike out all of section 2 of Mr. 0.0. Dwight's amendment after the words "dependent upon the result of any election, of the right to vote at such election," an insert the following::"No person who shall receive, expect to reOcee pay or Cofer t pay,p contribute or offer to otribute toan r to be paid or used, any oney or other valuable thing to influence or rewaiA vote o 'be given a an election, shll vet at ueh * on; and upon challenge fr such cause the person so challened shal, before t inspectors receive his vote, swear or affirm before such inspectors that he has not received, does not expect to receive, has not paid nor offered to pay, contributed nor offered to contribute to others to be paid or used, any money or other valuable thing to influence or reward a vote to be given at such election." Mr. LANDON —I simply desire to say that the amendment of the gentleman from Cayuga [Mr. 0. C. Dwight] requires the Legislature, or at least devolves the right upon the Legislature, to pass laws excluding trom the right of suffrage certain persons who may use money corruptly. I propose to put that in the body of the instrument itself, and the amendment I have submitted is a portion of the report of a majority of the committee with the addition of the words "contributed or offered to contribute to others to be paid or used." It is the identical language of the reportof the majority of the committee with that addition. I desire by that addition to strike at those men who contribute money in order to control elections. In close contests it frequently happens that large sums of money are raised by men who have means, and I desire to prevent the system of levying contributions upon persons who sympathize with particular parties, and by that means raising money. Now, if I can charge the contributor and say to him, "You contributed money." I will strike at tho evil; I will make that man afraid to give any money, and will therefore prevent any money being raised at the election, and if it cannot be raised it cannot be used. Mr. POND-There is one little aperture through this amendment, and through the report of the committee, and through the amendment of the gengentleman from Cayuga [Mr. C. C. Dwight], it seems to me. They provide against offering money and paying money, but they do not in either of these provisions provide an} remedy against a man promising it. Now I think unless they do, the evil will not be entirely obviated. An offer of money and a man's note for it are different things entirely; the cash down or the offer of cash for a vote and a promise to pay it at a future time are different and distinct things; and if it be left so a man can be prohibited from offering money to purchase a vote on the day of an election, yet he may obtain it by a promise to pay at some future time. Mr. LANDON —The gentleman will find that the amendment contains the words "valuable thing." A promise may be a valuable thing. Mr. POND-A promise may not be vauable It would be contrary to law to make one of that kind and legally speaking it would be invalid and worthless, but it may be sufficient to secure vote, and so also in the report of the SUt Committee. If the voter is challenged hae mst swear or affirm before inspectors that he haa no: recieved, does not expect to receive, has not h1: nor offered to pay, any money or oe vatia thing to influence or reward a ve: Now6: I s0umilt that candidate or othier per(son mfay h profised a man to reward him brhis Vote a: not be obnoiioua to- the~ pi4ehibitons of A th I r. O Y -QI desire tA Xearlfe at f It V 484 of the gentleman from Schenectady [Mr. Landon] have honesty in the executive officer, how can we to the fact that there are, I think, provisions in expect that we shall have honesty in the judicial the report of the committee in regard to that sub- officer, how can we expect that we shall ject, and I do so because it is before us printed have honesty in the legislative officer, when and so explicit that everybody can understand it. the very persons who elect those officers -who If the language is not precisely what he desires create them -are notoriously corrupt? It is, I it can be altered by the Convention, but I think believe, sir, a notorious fact which no gentleman this is the best basis upon which to form the can deny, that offices are bought and sold like amendment. Some considerable care was bestowed chattels in the market. It is a fact, sir, that in upon it. It reads, "No person who shall receive, many localities in almost every town and election expect to receive, pay, or offer to pay any money district, votes are purchased for money, and puror other valuable thing to influence or reward a chased, too, almost openly and unblushingly, by vote to be given at an election shall vote at such men who claim to be respectable; and, sir, I have election;" and it has since been amended by the heard more said in regard to this very proposition, mover so as to read "given or to be given." and in regard to an amendment to the ConstituMr. LANDON - Mr. Chairman- tion concerning this evil, than upon any other one The CHAIRMAN —The Chair will inform the subject. Now, sir, why leave it to the Legislagentleman from Schenectady [Mr. Landon] that ture to make this amendment? Why defer it under the strict rule he cannot a second time when we have the power in our hands, and it address the committee. takes only five or six lines of the Constitution, to Mr. C. C. DWIGHT-I have no objection on remedy the defect. I, for one, cannot see, I canmy part to insert the words " or promise" after the not understand the motive for placing this duty word "offer" in the amendment aas offered by upon the Legislature, when it can be just as well myself, and I would consent to the insertion of done by this Convention, and by the people who 'the words " contribute to others to pay," as sug- shall ratify the Constitution which shall be made gested by the gentleman from Schenectady [Mr. here. I am in favor, sir, of putting this in the Landon], but the point upon which I am strenu- Constitution, so that we shall be sure of it. If,ous and upon which I think the majority of this we say the Legislature may do this we do not committee are inclined to be strenuous is that in know whether the Legislature will do it or regard to this matter, as in regard to many others, whether they will not. the duty of legislating upon this subject shall be Mr. POND - Say they shallimposed upon the Legislature and not assumed by Mr. PRINDLE- That is not the proposition. this Convention. Make the power of the Legisla- I do not know why we should say "they shall," -ture broad enough to cover this whole ground, as when we can just as well do it ourselves. We,I am entirely willing and very desirous it should are not dependent upon any Legislature, or be made, and tit seems to me we have amended dependent upon any lobby of any Legislature,the Constitution as it should be done. Now, sir, which may hereafter assemble. It is for us to he framers of the Constitution-of 1846 were satis- place this provision in the Constitution, and I fied, were content to authorize the Legislature to trust sir, it will be placed in the Constitution. I 'pass an act depriving of the right to vote at believe if it is placed there, when a man of pre-.any election any person who should make tended respectability comes to the polls and offers,or be,interested in any bet or wager, and ever his vote, and we have a right to challenge him and since the adoption of that Constitution we have ask him whether lie has contributed money, Iqad upon our-statute-books a law of the L.egisla- directly or indirectly, for the purpose of influenctore which has covered that ground,- has made ing votes or not, we shall have the power in our 'the fact of a man being interested in a bet or hands of remedying this defect. Men will not wager a ground of challenge at the polls. Sir, I dare to engage in this business when they know have no doubt if we should authorize the Legisla. that they are liable to have their votes challenged ture to -deprive any person of a vote at election on that ground. Men will not assemble on the who should pay, offer or promise to pay, or re- niglit before town meetings, or the night before ceive or promise to receive any bribe for his vote, elections, to contribute their five dollars or ten we should yhave at -the next session of the Legis- dollars for the purpose of carrying on an election tare, a law; passed covering that. It seems to me corruptly, as is now done and as is conceded to that all these matters of detail should be left to be done by both parties, with such a provision as the Legislature, under provisions of the Constitu- this in the Constitution. I believe, sir, it is the len broad enough to provide for them. duty of every man in this Convention, who loves Mr. PRINI)LE-I cannot concur with the re- good order in society, who loves purity intall offibarks of the gentleman from Cayuga [Mr. C. C. cial places, to vote to place this amendment in the Dwight], and I sincerely hope this provision will Constitution. prevail. I think if there is any one provision Mr. BARNARD-I am very glad to hear these demanded by the people of the State of New confessions that have been made by a gentleYork it is this one. Of all the evils to be remedied man from a rural district [Mr. Prindle]. I have by this Convention I regard this as the most been astonished since I have taken a seat in this important. Sir, this evil lies at the very founda. Convention to find out how much corruption and ioe oftour government When the voters-those bribery there is in the country. We see nothing *ho elect the officers-become corrupt, the foun. of that kind in the city at all Here we have o, ad cait xpectedthat a gentlemew getting up all around us to try to put; tre am shall flow from a corrupt fountain? down bribery. It seems that in the country, in the:wa we expet Mr. Ohsirma, tat we shall pure rural districts at youtr town-meetings you meet 485 on the night before election and you raise money to pay voters for their votes. I never heard of such a thing before. We do not have anything of that kind in the city [laughter], and I hope gentlemen if they wish to put down this bribery will offer such an amendment as will effect the.object, and not do more. I tell you, sir, if you pass that amendment as it is upon your table, you tie the people of the State of New York hand and foot, and place them at the mercy of those who are beyond your limits. Why, you cannot even raise money to circulate twenty or thirty thousand extra Tribunes throughout the State to enlighten the people in regard to any subject about which they are to vote. It says you shall not contribute money directly or indirectly to influence a single voter and you must swear to that before you are permitted to put your vote in the ballot-box. Certainly we do not intend anything of this kind. If we do I hope the people of New York will never submit to it. We hear of congressional committees raising money to influence elections. We hear of manufacturers in the eastern States raising money to send into the State of New York to influence them in regard to the election of members of Congress who will vote for a high prohibitory tariff; and the people of New York tied hand and footso they cannot resist this. Theyare not permitted to raise money to send a speaker into any part of the State to speak for them. They are not permitted to raise money to circulate documents or pamphlets of any kind in regard to any political subject, because the very object of such contributions is to influence the voters as to how they shall vote at the coming election. It destroys our whole system of electioneering. It destroys free speech and the free press. We cannot hold a ward meeting in our cities. I do not know how it is in the rural districts, where bribery prevails so extensively, but in the pure, uncorrupted, and incorruptible cities you cannot hold a ward meeting without paying for the hire of the room, and the very object of holding a ward meeting has in its view the influencing of voters at an election to nominate candidates, to raise means and ways to bring voters to the polls who are sick and infirm and unable to walk, to send pamphlets, documents and newspapers among the people. and to hire places where speakers can come and address the people, allof which involves expense, and the object of that expense is to influence the voters as to how they shall vote. Is it legitimate or is it illegitimate? I do not know but that you may carry it so far as to say that every man who makes a speech for the purpose of influencing the votes of others contributes a valuable thing for the purpose of influencing voting, and he will be prevented from casting his vote at the election. We want nothing more-when there are congressional committees and meetings of other States held, raising money and sending it here to influence our elections-than this amendment, to prevent free action, and we can do nothing but repel it. If we dare do it we are prohibited from voting. Now, if the gentlemen who are in favor of prohibiting bribery choose to insert into the Con.;tltutite a proposition to effect that object I would most cheerfully give my vote, if it is found that the Legislature is deficient in its duty in regard to this subject; but in regard to so swtping an amendment as is offered by the gentleman from Schenectady [Mr. Landon], after you come to read it and ponder upon each word, you will find that every man who contributes a sixpence to carrying an election, or towards paying any of the expense of an election, will be prevented from voting. Mr. COCHRAN-I move that the Committee do now rise, report progress and ask leave to sit again. The question was put on the motion of Mr. Cochran and it was declared carried. Whereupon the Committee rose and the President resumed the Chair in Convention. Mr. ALVORD, from the Committee of the Whole, reported that the Committee had had under consideration the report of the Committee on the Right of Suffrage and the Qualifications to Hold Office, had made some progress therein, but not having gone through therewith had directed their Chairman to report that fact to the Convention and ask leave to sit again. The PRESIDENT announced the question to be on the motion to grant leave to the Committee to sit again. Mr. CHAMPLAIN moved to recommit the report of the committee, with instructions to amend by striking out " section 3," and inserting in lieu thereof, the following: "SEC. 3. Laws shall be made for ascertaining when the citizen offers his vote at the election, by proper proofs, whether lie is entitled to the right of suffrage hereby established." Mr. ALVO RD -I rise to a point of order, that no such motion can be entertained in this order of business. The PRESIDENT -The Chair does not understand the gentleman from Allegany [Mr. Champlain] to move to discharge the committee from further consideration. Mr. CHAMPLAIN-I do move that the Committee of the Whole be discharged from further consideration of the report, and that it be recommitted. The PRESIDENT announced the question to be on the motion of the gentleman from Allegany [Mr. Champlain]. Mr. BARKER-I move that the Convention do now adjourn. Mr. ALVORD-I rise to a point of order, that we cannot adjourn and leave the committee in this condition. The PRESIDENT-The Chair holds that a motion to adjourn is always in order. The question was then put on the motion of Mr. Barker. and it was declared carried. So the Convention stood adjourned. WEDNESDAY, July 24. 18'I:. The Convention met at 11 o'clock A. M.. Prayer was offered by the Rev. W. C. DOA Tne Journal of yesterday was read by SECRETARY and approved.:i' Mr. BELL presented the petition of aW fardy and thirty-four others, ctiens of R Jefferson county, asking for an amendimenut: tO 486 o1sttuti prohibiting the appropriations of Mr. FULLERTON presented the:etition of public money to sectarian institutions. Myron D. Stewart and others, in favor of the proWhich was referred to the Committee on the hibition of the sale of intoxicating liquors.:owers and Duties of the Legislature. Which was referred to the Committee on Mr. STRATTON presented twenty-four several Adulterated Liquors. petitions from citizens of New York, praying that Mr. FULLERTON also presented the petition theLegislature be prohibited from passing other of Rev. John H. Lane and one hundred and sixtythan general laws on the subjects of the traffic in five others, in favor of prohibiting the donation of fermented liquors and wines, and for the main- public money to sectarian instiutions. tenance of public order and morality. Which was referred to the Committee on the:The petitions were referred to the Committee Powers and Duties of the Legislature. en Adulterated Liquors. The PRESIDENT presented the petition of the Mr. STRATTON also presented the petition of Sons of Temperance, praying for the prohibition two hundred and five citizens of Richmond county of the sale of intoxicating liquors. on the same subject, Which was referred to the Committee on Which took the same reference. Adulterated Liquors. Mr. MERWIN presented the petition of W. M. Tile PRESIDENT also presented a communicaIashat and thirty-three others, praying against the tion from the Comptroller of the State, in answer appropriation of public money to sectarian insti- to a resolution adopted by the Convention July ttions. 17 th. Which was referred to the Committee on the Which was referred to the Committee on EduPowers and Duties of the Legislature. cation. Mr, E. BROOKS presented a petition from the The PRESIDENT also presented a communicacitizens of Long Island on the same subject. tion from the canal appraisers, in answer to a Which took the same reference. resolution passed July 13th. Mr. OPDYKE presented the petition of Herbert Which was referred to the Committee on Canals Reed and twenty-four others on the same subject. and ordered to be printed. Which took the same reference. Mr. CONGER - I would like to have the comMr. GRE ELEY presented the petition of J. D. C. munication from the Comptroller, which was reRedington and several hundred citizens of Onon- ferred to the Committee on Education, also dafga on the same subject. printed. Which took the same reference. The CHAIRMAN - The rule requires all these Mr. BARNARD presented tile petition of H. J. communications to be printed. Miller and sixty-two others, citizens of Blooming- Mr. BEALS offered the following resolution: grove, on the same subject. Resolved, That the Commissioners of the Land Which took the same reference. Office be requested to report to this Convention: Mr. TUCKER presented the petition of Roswell The number of acres of land belonging to the G. Horton and others, on behalf of the "State common school fund in 1822, the report to Rights Society of New York," against negro suf- specify the county in which the land was situated, frage. the name of the tract and the several lots, with Which was referred to the Committee of the the number of acres in each. Also what lots have "Whole. been sold, with the price of each, and what remain Mr. HARRIS presented a petition of the town unsold. Also how much money has been received of Lebanon, in relation to charitable devises and into the Treasury from such sales, and how much is bequests still due upon bonds for lands. Also whether Which was referred to the Committee on.Chari- any sales for land under water have been made; ties and Charitable Institutions, whether land under the waters of the Hudson Mr. SHERlMAN presented the memorial of Rev. river, or under the waters of the East river, or iG C. Judson and fifty-nine others, citizens of under the waters of the shores of Long Island or Delaware county, praying against the appropria- Staten Island, or under the waters of the inland tion of public money to sectarian institutions. lakes; and if so, what sums of money have been Which was referred to the Committee on the received for such lands, specifying the sum reower and Duties of the Legislature. ceived for each part, and whether the money:.Mr. VERPLANCK presented a communication received for lauds under water has been added to from A. Brisbane in relation to cruelty to animals. the capital of the common school fund, and if Which was referred to the Committee on Indus- uot, the reasons for crediting it to any other fund. trial Interests. Also what lands belonging to the State, whether Mr. BURRIILL presented the petition of Wm. acquired by escheat or otherwise (except those. Harris and forty-nine others, praying that a bid in by the Commissioners for loaning the separate clause be submitted to the people pro- moneys belonging to the U. S. Deposit Fund), hibiting the sale of intoxicating liquors, have been given away by act of the Legislature Whiel, wars reefrred to the Committee on whether granted to individuals, or to railroads, or Adulrated ltiquora. charitable institutions, or for public use in any way. Mr. MOBR presented te pettion of Horace Which was laid over under the rule. ord and t y-five others, citizens of Hobart, Mr. ROBERTSON offered the following resolu* aware nty, praying against the apppriation tion: 4u0 lie money to secta rian instiwtiotns. Resolved, T th tasurers of every cout e olved That tle treasurers of every county l are rd e Committee on the and the flaneial offrs of every city, town and w ar ad th Levillage in is State, respectfully requested tX 87 1oako a return to this Convention of the amount of funded indebtedness of such county, city, town and village, whereupon interest is payable, and if it consists of several debts incurred at several times and for different purposes, for which bonds or other written obligations have been issued, then of their amounts and the times when and purposes for which they were issued. Which was laid over under the rule. Mr SHERMAN-I ask that the resolution which I introduced yesterday may be printed. There being no objection it was ordered to be printed. Mr. SHERMAN offered the following resolution: Resolved, That document No. 30 be reprinted with the amendments of the committee thereto, and that the lines be numbered as in the case of bills reported in the Legislature. Which was referred to the Committee on Printing. Mr. BARKER-I move that this order of business be suspended for the day. Mr. SCHUMAKER -I would ask the gentleman to withdraw that motion for the present. Mr. BARKER-I would prefer not to do it. The question was put on the motion of Mr. Barker, and it was declared to be carried. The Chair announced the pending question to be upon the resolution of Mr. Champlain to discharge the committee from further consideration of the report, and to recommit it to the Committee on the Right of Suffrage. Mr. CHAMPL'AIN-The object of the introduction of this resolution was not that I might get an opportunity very briefly to address the Convention in opposition to the report of the committee, but from an apprehension that under the order of business as we were proceeding, I would be deprived of that privilege, and being satisfied now, sir, that the third section of this article must be. considered in Committee of the Whole before it is reported to the Convention, and being anxious to facilitate the action of the Convention, I will withdraw my motion. The question then recurred upon granting leave to the Committee of the Whole to sit again. Which was granted. The Convention then resolved itself into Committee of the Whole, on the report of the Committee on the Right of Suffrage and the Qualifications to Hold Office, Mr. ALVORD, of Onondaga, in the chair. The Chair announced the question to be upon the amendment offered by the gentleman from Schenectady [Mr. Landonj to the amendment of the gentleman from Ontario [Mr. McDonald]. Mr. LANDON —I desire to offer an amendment to the amendment offered by me yesterday, so that the word "influence " shall be striken out and the word " compensation ", inserted, so that the clause will read, "as a compensation or reward for the vote.. The CHAIRMIAN- There having been no affir. mative action taken upon the amendment it will b amende d as requested, if there be no oection. Mr. KRUM —I would like, if inorder, to make a~ suggetion..,., *. The CHAIRMAN - The Chair would ask the gentleman whether he has not addressed thelhair before on that subject? Mr. KRUM -I do not rise to address the Chair, but to make a suggestion to the gentleman who offered the amendment. Mr. KRUM-I would suggest to the gentleman who offered the amendment that after the word "expected" he should insert the words " to offer" so that'it will read "every person who shall receive or expect to receive, or offer to receive." My object is to make the person who offers to sell equally liable to challenge with the person who offers to buy. As the amendment now stands there is nothing that makes a ground of challenge for the seller or the person who offers to sell. Mr. LANDON-Mr. Chairman, I will vote for that amendment when it is offered, but I prefer not to accept it. Mr. BOWEN-Is it in order now to offer an amendment? The CHAIRMAN-The Chair is of opinion it is not now in order. Mr. BERGEN -I have listened to this debate for several days on the question now pending, and had not intended to say one word on the subject; but yesterday an insinuation was thrown out, if I mistake not, by a member from the western part of this State [Mr. Landon], that there was a great deal of corruption in the rural districts of this State bribery prevailed to a great extent, votes were bought and sold the same as sheep in the shambles. Now sir, as a resident of a rural district of the county of Kings, mainly inhabited by the decendants of the Hollanders and Netherlanders, I must say that this corruption does not exist in that locality. I have been familiar with the politics of that locality for years, and I have never known a single instance, where a vote of an individual has ever been bought or sold-I never heard of an instance. Now, if the western part of this State, settled by descendants of the Puritans, are so corrupt as is represented, the amendment now pending may be necessary, but I can assure this Convention it is unnecessary in that part of the State settled by the Hollanders and Huguenots. It is entirely unnecessary to be applied to that portion of the State, but if it is necessary to make pure elections in the western part of the State, I will consent to it. Mr. PRINDLE —Will the gentleman allow me to ask him a question? Does the gentleman believe that no votes are bought or sold in his county? Mr. BERGEN- I have been familiar with the politics of that county for more than thirty years, and never within my knowledge has a vote been bought or sold; such things may have been done but I have never known of such an instance. I Mr. PRINDLE -The gentleman dodges my question. Mr. BERG E- I doubt very much, Mr. hair man, whether an instance of that kind has ever occurred in the county of [ Kings [laughter], with a populationof nerly 40,000, more than double that of some of te western counties: theefore, on beatf e tion of the county, of King I re t, destioe th purge that locality of thee putat l 488 whi-ki may belong to the western part of the of twenty-seven years has at all changed these Btate, but which do not pertain to that part of relations. the State that I have referred to. Mr. GOULD -These statements, sir, form the Mr. HADLEY-I am glad to hear the gentle- oasis in the desert. I am delighted beyond pleasman from Kings state that there is no bribery or ure to hear them, and I only desire to have them corruption in the county of Kings. I represent in fully confirmed. I would, therefore, propose to part a district and a county largely settled by em- call upon Mr. Schumaker of Kings, or, Mr. Murtgrants from Long Island, the descendants of the phy, of Kings, to state whether they ever knew, same class of men that the gentleman from Kings in the course of their lives, any money paid for [(Mr. Bergen] says he represents. I have been en- votes in the county of Kings. gaged somewhat in the politics of the county of Mr. SCHUMAKER -I take great pleasure in Seneca for the last thirty years, and can say this: answering the question propounded by my old that among the descendants of the same class the friend from Columbia [Mr. Gbuld], whom I gentlemain represents on Long Island, I have have known from my earliest infancy, and I found men who buy and sell votes at every elec- know the reason why he asks it; it is, that there tion and have done so, and I can only account for is so much corruption in the county of Columit by the fact, that when they get up into the rural bia. When I was a little boy and living districts beyond the influence of the great cities of in the neighborhood of the gentleman, both New York and Brooklyn they become corrupt parties used to stand around the polls with flaughter], but as long as they remain within the their pocketbooks out to buy votes. I left the magic circle, they are entirely pure and virtuous. county of Columbia twenty years ago: but once If it is true that in the rural districts in the coun- in a while I go up there about election time, and ty of Kings, there is no corruption, certainly this I see the same old practice. In the county of amendment will not hurt anything there, but if Kings a dollar does not appear as large to the we are so corrupt, in the rural districts of the State citizens there as it does in the county of Columit may be of some benefit to us; therefore, I hope bia or elsewhere in this State, or in the county of thle gentleman from Kings [Mr. Bergen] will vote Seneca, for instance. with us or this question. The sons of the Puri- Mr. 1IARRIS-It takes more to buy a vote tans are slandered everywhere, to-day almost; then? and when the gentleman from Long Island [Mr. Mr. SCHUMAKER-They do not buy votes Bergen] shall come in contact with the sons of the for dollars in the county of Kings; I have seen EPuritans of the western part of this State, hewill fifty cents buy a vote in the rural districts, find that they possess as much intelligence, as not in the county of Kings. No votes are mluch fidelity and as much virtue as do the de- for sale there. I never yet have known a scendants of any other people, whether they live regular sale of a voter in the county of In the county of Kings or elsewhere. Kings in my life; they are generally men Mr. S. TOWNSEND-I rise merely to confirm who are engaged in politics, and have target 'all that my old colleague [Mr. Bergen] has just and steamboat excursions, and all that kind.said as to his immediate rural locality, and the of clap-trap to approach persons running for.comparative purity of the mode in which its office, and they are generally persons who are elections are conducted, when reviewed in con- of the order of which there has been so much nection with the exercise of the right of suffrage spoken on this floor-the "' Know-Notlling fi other portions of the State. In the Order." They were not Irishmen, not Germans, sequestered county of Queens, and the still not descendants of the Hollanders, but they more secluded one of Suffolk, I' know of were descendants of the persons who came no such practices as have been properly held over in that good old ship called the "Mayup for public censure, as being general elsewhere. flower." The most notorious strikers, the most The small vote (one-third of the legal one) at notorious corruptionists that we ever had in our the:recent election in the district that I have the midst, and I speak a little from experience, are honor in part to represent on this floor, shows descendants of the Puritans and persons wvlho that in that instance, at least, no effort was made emigrated into our county from Massachusetts. to bring Out a ftill vote of the entire district, how- Mr. FOL'ER ---Was Swartwout a descendant ever strenuous exertions may have been made of the Puritans? personally by a candidate (justly a defeated one), Mr. SCHUMAKER-Swartwout was a very "td his friends to substitute deceptively his own small thief of the democratic stripe, but we have hame for my own upon the democratic ballots. had in the last four years thieves of the Puri'-an It is pertinent to this view of the question to stripe, that Swartwout, although a largo man, Sy that when in 1840 the registry law was first would be considered dwarfish in comparison to forced upon the city of New York singly, except- them. I know Swartwout and Price commlitted lug from its provisions the other twelve cities - its a sort of petit larceny, but the immense larcenies delegates upon this floor (with whom I had the and robberies which have been committed throughhonor of being asociated), contended that thle out the country since the republican party have eletoralt vote which was in iproportion then as had the ascendency in the United States, dwarf only one o nine of its population, whilst in the the action of Swartwout and William Price twenty ruldistrictsthetiowasaone to six-mindi- years ago. a ted s f far as the purity of the exercise of the Mr. LUDINGTON-Were the Willett's Point eirachse wa onrned, a decided swindlers descendants of the Puritans?;datatga in fror Bof thait much traduced city. M-. SCHUMAKERR I would refer the gentlepiawX h ea:ontokeoIpworbetliev th lapse man: to Mr. Townsend, of Queens county, as we 489 do not know anything about those men in our county, and in reply I would ask him whether some of the great canal swindlers were descendants of the Mayflower people whom we have heard so much of? Mr. M. I. TOWNSENI5 -I would rise to a point of order, that this discussion is not pertinent. The CHAIRMAN- The Chair is of opinion it has gone far enough in that direction. Mr. SCHUMAKER-I was about to say wehad some persons with us who are very fond of money, but that they never received it openly at the polls as it is in the habit of being done in the country, where it is quite a common practice. But I never have recollected an instance where a person has been indicted - and I have had a little experience in the criminal courts of our county - for openly receiving money at the polls for his vote. It is quite common, I know, in the country, from personal observation, but I do not believe any of the gentlemen from Kings (and I see around me a great many of them of the legal profession) ever recollect of a single instance of a person being indicted or convicted for selling his vote at the polls. There have been a few indictments in relation to spending money, posting bills, hiring wagons, etc., which was called by the grand jury a subterfuge for influencing voters, but no out-and-out sale of a vote at the polls has ever occurred in our midst. There have been frauds at elections, and as I was asked by the gentleman from Columbia [Mr. Gould], I would say that I have never seen anything like such frauds in the city, although I have no doubt that announcement may astonish a great many persons in this Convention; they either do it secretly or else they do not do it at all. Mr. GOULD-I know the rock from whence that gentleman was hewn and the hole from whence he was digged If it is really true that that gentleman of his own personal knowledge has never known anything about the purchasing of votes, I have only to say that the age of miracles has not ceased, and that you cannot give me any miracle that I will not swallow after this. Mr. CONGER-I would like to inquire of the gentleman who proposed this amendment, and the gentlemen who favor a wise constitutional provision in regard to this matter of preventing bribery and disfranchising those who participate in it, whether they cannot find in the English language some more suitable phrase to use in this clause than "expect to receive." We have the word " receive " as opposite and complementary to the term "pay." And then we have "expect to receive" as opposite to the term "offer to pay." But gentlemen must see that an offer to pay does not have its full opposite in so general a phrase as this "expect to receive," because the expectation of a man may not be upon an offer to pay him, it may*be founded upon something else. I throw out these suggestions because I think that to challenge a man at the polls on a charge of a general expectation to receive, without proving any offer to pay, would be nothing but an impediment to the exercise of the franchise. The question was then put on the amendment of Mr. Landou, and it was declared adopted. 62 Mr. VEEDER-I would inquire whether it i in order to move an amendment to any other se-. tion? The CHAIRMAN-The Chair is of the opinion it is not now in order. Mr. BICKFORD moved the following amendment: Amend by adding at the end of section one, the words: t Provided further, that every man of the age of eighteen years, who is a native citizen of this State, and who shall always have resided therein, and who shall possess the other qualifications above provided, shall be entitled to vote for all officers elective by the people." Mr. BICKFORD - In offering this amendment it will be perhaps expected that I should say a few words in its favor. It will be noticed that the amendment substantially proposes to confer upon the native citizens of this State-those born in the State and who have always resided in the State, and who have attained the age of eighteen,-the privilege of voting. It, indeed, proposes a considerable change in the right of suffrage as it has heretofore existed in this State; but it seems to me, sir, that it is a change which ought to be made, and which may be made with great propriety and with entire safety. The question as to who shall exercise the elective franchise is after all a question for the Convention and the people to determine. It is truly a conventional right. There is no limit fixed in nature, and no reason, other than an arbitrary rule, why a man should vote who has attained the age of twenty-one, when another who has attained the age of twenty years and six months, or twenty years simply, or eighteen years, should not vote. It is a question to be fixed by those who are to determine the matter, for there is no arbitrary line fixed in nature. I would say briefly that the class of men who are included in this amendment, as a class, are eminently patriotic; they have always lived in this State and are familiar with its interests; they have every means of acquiring an education, although I do not favor a mere educational test, yet I mention this to show the safety of this deposit of the elective franchise. If we wish to please the mothers about whom we have heard so much, you cannot better please them than by admitting their sons, who are their pride and delight, three years earlier to the exercise of the elective franchise. Now, sir, if we go back in the history of our race, we shall find that the period at which men have attained their majority has gradually diminished. Before the flood, when men lived to the age of nearly a thousand years, a child of a hundred years was still a child, the pride and hope of its mother. Afterward we find that Isaac emancipated his sons Esau and Jacob at the age of forty. Under the Jewish economy the age of majority was fixed at thirty years. Under the Roman Empire the age of majority was fixed at twenty-five. During the middle ages, in the Western parts of Euro it was fixed at twenty-one, and we have adopted the same period heretofore in this country. nI sir, in the age in which we live-in, ts ast age-men arrive to maturity both in lodyand mind at a groat deal earlier period than tor t90 o8 ts;~o every fal erwrho,ha t: boy of ^eghteen jar o,? *.age1n orditary hlithl calcu!ate le is able to do a man's day's work? I was brought up a farmer myef,an d ad I was competentto do a man's day's work at sixteen, and I:did it, too. We hold men at, eighteen liable to the draft, and require them to peril their lives in the battle-field, and requir.of them. a full man's military duty,.d at sixteen even we admit them. to make the most important contract of their whole lives, namely, the marriage contract. We treat.them in many important respet as men, and it is time that we shoutld acknowledge them to be men in the full acceptation of the term. The chairman of the committee, in his report, speaks of them as 'l"half-. grown, boys." They are men and they should be recogized as mern by this Convention and the eople. He also says: - " or have we seen fit to propose the enfranchisement of boys above the age of eighteen years. The current of ideas and usages in our day. but especially in this country, seems already to set quite to strongly in favor of the relaxation, if not total overthrow of parental authority, especially over half-grown boys. With the sincerest good-will for the class in question, we submit that they may spend the hours which they can spare from their labors and their lessons more usefully and profitably i mastering the wisdom of the sages and philosophers who have elucidated the science of government, than in attendance on midnight caucuses or in wrangling around the polls." Is it possible that tte acute gentleman who penned this, supposes that there can possibly be nyt!hing in it. How do we derive a political education in this day and generation? Is it by "r astering the wisdom of sages and, plilosoplers who have written on that subject?" Not at all. It is from the newspapers that we derive our political education, and the gentleman is aware that the sheet he issues every day, or what is issued under his supervision, is calculated and expressly designed to secure the political education of the peopl, and it is thus we derived our views and our impressions on the questions of the y,, aud, the duty that devolves. upon us as citizens in relatorn to the matters involved in a peding-election. The boys of eighteen (if you haooe to call them bos, I call them men) are wel posted and abundantly fitted to exercise the ilective franchise. If intelligence is to be a test of this privilege, the boys at eighteen are much more intelligenton the average than many of tile ciasses who we admit to the right of suffrage and hoare rightfully admitted for I would deprive Ao man of the rigtlt of suffrage who now enjoys it. rtainlymen at eighteen are as iutel4igent on th verage as men ove s nt-ertainly over sventy-fivye. The, class of young men embraced n th is amendment are certaily as competent to to as are the average of person born, iq E urope ad natiuralized in this country. I would not jye anyof those or:chansge, te law.on t bat3j0Et' bt 'tere are ho A wlitholnk there arfrom the;iflu: o forn vters, natur aBi in this.country... do not anticipate any t0te " e bu t if 6there is any such, danger ain t,dirctiOn:te,9proper remedy is to admit lasa a.ni: f here..ic..no.danger..to the execise.of this right, and if any gentleman supposes there is danger from admitting the negroes to a. share in the elective franchise, let me say,that danger- is, to be met by admitting another class, against whom no good objeqtion can be made,. J, therefore, hcpe, sir, that this amendmelnt will prevail,.and if it, is not to presail:in this shape, if there are objections in the mind of some, that it only admits those who are born, and who have always resided in the State, if it is objected to on that ground, I will propose another amendment simply to strike out thl3 words 'twenty-one" from the report, and insert the word "eighteen," so that it will admit all men of that age to vote on equal terms with the rest.. M:r.. ROBERThON —I introduced a resolution of a similar kind with that now before us at the commencement of our meeting here, whlich was very summarily disposed of. I am. glad to find there are gentlemen in other parts of this State who have. thought over this matter, and have had occasion to think deeply on this subject of the rights of the younger inhabitants of tilis State to exercise the privilege of suffrage. I wish, therefore, to submit a very few remarks in support of the proposition of the gentleman from Jefferson [Mr. Bickford]. There appears to be two ultimate principles which are. presented in regard to the determination of what qualifications should confer the right of suffrage —universal and manhood sufr frage. Under the universal suffrage flag. rank those gentlemen who favor the right of females to vote at our elections. Under the manhood suffrage flag are enlisted all those? who think that every one who bears the port and outward sem, blance of manhood, and have the fully.rdeveloped mental powers of man in regard to his capacity to participate in government, should have a right to vote at our elections. All writers on this sub* ject in regard to manhood suffrage, all who have exercised their thoughts and feelings on the other side of the Atlantic on this subject, have always conceded that manhood suffrage is.the true limit and test of what should constitute the.extent of suffrage in representative government, Manhood must everywhere be a comparative term. It is a term which derives its legitimate test and standard from the climate, the race, and surrouudijpgs of the inhabitants of every country. Manhood, in some climates, so far as the physical con? dilion of man is concerned, reaches maturity mUho earliar than in others. I apprehend that manhood reaches its limit and powers at a much earlier period in the southern than it does in. the northern part of the Continent of Europe, land. natu ral intellectual vigor seems to follow the alame rule. I agree with the gentleman from Jeffrson [Mr. Bickitrd] that at eighteen years of a{ e the capacity of learning and the power of coMnmuni cating instruction. 'to others,; the ability to tlink.well and deeply in all subjects.in, volving the intrests of the community, is- as strong as it is. s at twenty-one. Ift the right f suffrage.be natural, as has been contended by some gentlemen here, I would ask by what authority thle egislature of: is State or.by what authority we sitting here to regulate the right of surage. attempt to impos thisn additional three years pqrobation before we allow man to exercise 491 that right which he attains on arriving at manhood. Parties at eighteen years of age, in this country, not only are engaged in physical labor and the acquisition of knowledge, but they are also engaged in imparting it to others, and in teaching and directing others, and in superintending mechanical and other operations. There are masters of ves. sels at eighteen years of age, upon whose judgment and knowledge of navigation may depend the preservation of the lives of their passengers and the safety of their vessels and cargo. Men of eighteen have so fought in battles, as would not have done discredit to far older and more experienced generals, during our recent struggle for national existence. Men of eighteen have shed their blood by thousands freely on the field of battle in support of the independance of their country in the first struggle we bad with the parent country. Men of like age have freely shed their blood and offered up their lives over the whole extent of this land for the purpose of sustaining the second war for the existence of the country. I find in the report which comes from the Committee on Suffrage that the colored men are recommended to our votes because they were "lindiscriminately drafted and held to service to fill our State quotas in the war, with the whites, and henceforth we are to deal with men according to their conduct without regard to their color." So I say; we are to try men in accordance with their convict and not in accordance with their age. At eighteen years ol age, men are fathers of families, they bring up and rear the offspring who are to fill hereafter their respective parts in the nation and government of the country, who are inl fact to compose that future nation. Marriage in this country, where the means of livelihood are more easily obtained, takes place at a much earlier age than it does in any other country. We therefore intrust to the care of a father of eighteen years of age the instruction and guidance of the infant mind, who are hereafter to become the constituent element of this republic, which is by them to be conducted to greatness or to misfortune, and yet we are not willing to intrust to him-the man who thus infuses into the mind of his children the means of knowledge which he has himself acquired, the learning of which he is possessed and the fruits of his experience of life-we forbid that man to step to the polls and vote for an officer however inferior m y be his office, and however minute may be the reach of his influence and functions. I ask whether gentlemen are not willing to confide in the pure and uncorrupted mind of the "half grown boy," as he is called in this report. I ask the Convention whether they are not willing to trust the privilege of voting to them, with a fair field of life before them, with untainted principles, and with a love of honesty, honor and principle, that they have been recently taught by their parents, when they would spurn a bribe with indignation, rather than the man of party, who has learned co tamper with his honor and to yield to the temptations others may present to him: whether, if this whole country were governed by the votes of men of eighteen, we should not have pmoren elections than we now have? I would more especially appeal to those gentlemen who ar anxious to introduce men of color to vote at our ele tions, without any disctions of property, whether they are not as willing to trust the white "bo of eighteen, as they now exist, as they 'ould a colored man of twenty-one, to vote for those who are to manage the affairs of this State. I appear in behalf of those who have hitherto been ostracised and excluded from the right to govern the country. I ask gentlemen to consider whether they will unhesitatingly and without reflection exclude all those men of this country, those half grown boys" between eighteen and twenty-one and at the same time say that they do it on the strength of the argument contained in the report of the Committee on Suffrage. These- men of eighteen are therein recommended to dispose of their time as follows: "With the sincerest good-will for the class in question, we submit that they may spend the hours, which they can spare from their labors and their lessons more usefully and profitably in masterilg the wisdom of the sages and philosophers wvho have elucidated the science of government, than in attendance on midnight caucuses or i4 wrangling around the polls." That recommendation might, with much more effect and justice, be followed by hackneyed and veteran politicians who have so long directed the iffairs of the State, and been steeped in the turbid waters of its politics. The question was then put on the amendment proposed by Mr. Bickford, which was declared lost, on a division, by a vote of 33 to 82. Mr. OPDYKE —I offer the following amendment: Insert at the end of the tenth line of the first section of the article reported by the committee: "Provided, That any person not a qualified voter b-fore the first day of January, 1870, shall not be deemed qualified to vote until able to read the Constitution in the English language, and write his name; but this provision shall not apply to any person prevented by physical disability from reading or writing as aforesaid." Mr. ROGERS -Is it in order to lay that on the table? The CHAIRMAN -The Chair will inform the gentleman that no such motion can be entertained in Committee ofthe Whole. Mr. OPDYKE - It will be seen that this is the amendment slightly modified, introduced by the gentleman from Dutchess [Mr. Carpenter], sotme time since, and which he subsequently withdrew at the request of some of the friends of this proposie tlon. The proposition looks to the future elevati of the elective franchise by a method which ever one should regard as unobjectionable, since it wi deprive no existing elector of his right to vte, It seems to me to have sufficient merit to om:,: mend itself to the favorable consideration of h Convention, and to the approval of the p iP The discussion it elicited on its first introduoto like other discussions which have followe it, a wide range. Gentlemen have vry pr otl' entered into an examination of the elen te^ principles which underlie the questi of sf with the view of defining the proper limitof tha trust or privi'ege. This htitud of discuio is 492 due to the nature and importance of the subject. The object of the discussion should be to ascertain, with all possible precision, the boundaries of the elective franchise, best calculated to secure the public god. Until we have done this, we cannot safely determine who should be admitted and who excluded. We have had many able speeches on that subject, but as no gentleman who has shared in these elementary discussions has presented the precise views I entertain on the subject, I will ask the indulgence of the committee while I briefly present them.. Some gentlemen, taking the spirit of the Declaration of Independence as their guide, maintain that all have a natural right to share in the administrstion of the government This position, although in strict accordance with the original theory on which our government was founded, is evidently too broad. Literally enforced, it would destroy any govcrement. Those who believe in its practical enforcement must overlook, as it seems to me, the great end for which governments are or should be instituted among men-namely, the promotion of the /welfare and happiness of society. Whatever form of' government will best secure that end is the best form. No American, doubts that popular government, which aims through equal laws and equal civil rights to secure " the greater good of the greatest number," is the type best calculated to secure the highest good of the whole collectively. This is the professed aim of our own government. Our statesmen have reduced the expression of that aim to the maxim just quoted, a maxim which, in my judgment,expresses the true theory of gov ernment. Now,sir, if we admit, as l think we must, that the true design of government is to promote the happiness or well-being of society, it follows that it should be so constructed as will best secure that end. Every constitutional provision should be tested by that principle. Those that embody the best known rules for securing the welfare and advancement of society should stand; those that fall short of that standard should be rejected, or 0s changed'as to conform to it. This, it seems to me, is the touchstone we should apply to every proposition that comes before this Convention. Let us then apply this test to the elective franchise, and thus ascertain its proper boundaries. The first point to be determined is the nature of that trust and the extent of the political power it onfers on its recipients. In all popular governments, those in whose hands it is placed constitute the governing class. They hl ld the supreme politicalpower. They shape the policy of the government and dictate its laws. It is by their mandate that we are here to-day. They are taking note of our words and acts, and they stand ready to exercise their sovereignty in the acceptance or rejection of the Constitution we shall present to them, according as they may deem it conducive to their good or to their inj ury. True, sir, the body f electors, in the exercise of their sovereignty, hoose to perform the immediate functions of government through the agency of represntatives chosen by themselves rather than by their own i:ret effrts. Thenir numbers render this expeen ttnavoida:ble.;:ut these representatives, wiih rare exceptions, fitullyj execut e t wil tese Awb ho elected tbheM. Nor is1 this all. When taken collectively, the representatives reflect, with great accuracy, not merely the political opinions of their constituents, but their average moral and intellectual qualities as well. In a word, the representative body is in all essential characteristics a miniature reproduction of the electoral body. This fact mav appear strange, but observation proves it to be true; and a moment's consideration will show that we have no right to expect a different result. The chords of human sympathy are strongest between those of like character and like condition. Therefore, 'the ignorant and depraved elector will be more likely to vote for a representative of his own type than for a wise and virtuous one, and vice versa. In short, the general truth, that like produces like, receives another versification in the product of the ballot, in the marked similarity in all essential qualities of the electoral body and its political offspring, the representative body. We are virtually governed, therefore, by those who exercise the right of baffrage. They are our rulers. They direct and control the whole machinery of government, from its lowest to its highest functions. Such, sir, is the nature and extent of the power that accompanies this franchise. It is as unlimited as imperial ruler ever wielded. How important, then, that those on whom it is conferred should have the requisite qualifications for exercising it in the advancement of the public good. Now, sir, whatre those qualifications? By common consent, the first and highest prerequisites for admission into the ranks of the governing class are intelligence and integrity. These qualities, in some degree, are deemed indispensable for admission to that class by all governments, as is proved by the universal exclusion of idiots, lunatics and persons convicted of crime. In fact, it is a received axiom in political science, that intelligence and virtue are the only foundations on which popular government can be sustained. Any oAe who will for a moment reflect that the science and art of government constitute one of the largest and most intricate departments of human knowledge, cannot fail to appreciate the importance of having an intelligent body of electors. Nor can we, in view of the recent effort of highly intelligent men to destroy the best government in the world, overestimate the value of a patriotic integrity of character capable of resisting the promptings of selfish ambition and other evil desires. The learned gentleman from Oneida [Mr. T. W. Dwight], in his able speech on this suffrage question, some days since and again to-day, named three other prerequisites for admission to the elective franchise-namely, incorporation, independence and interest. With record to the first, if he means by it only that thbse not "native here and to the manor born," should undergo a probation long enough to understand our institutions, and for the growth of an attachment to our country, I agree with him fully; but I cannot agree with him in relation to either of the other two. There is no such thing as independence or entire freedom from dependence in society. The whole body of society is bound together by a chain of inter-dependence from which no one of its members can escape, except by a total severance from the society. This is as true of the 493 body politic as it is known to be of the body cor- even to him they are not elevating in their tendens poral. This condition of dependence is recipro- cies. The effect on woman would be more cal. The public official is dependent on the gov- deleterious still, and, for one, I am disposed t ernment for his place and his salary, and the protect her from it, both for her own sake and government is dependent on the official for his for ours. So in regard to minors of our own sex, services; the employed is dependent on the em- between the ages of eighteen and twenty-one. ployer for his wages, and the employer on the With few exceptions they have the intelligence employed for his services; the representative is and integrity requisite for good electors; and they dependent on his constituents for the trust he have an additional claim to the right of suffrage, holds, and the constituents on the representative grounded on our requirement that they shall aid for the faithful performance of that trust, and so in fighting our battles. But I would continue to on until you reach the public pauper. There the exclude them from its exercise, for the same reciprocal dependence ceases. The public pauper reason that I would exclude womat; that is, for is wholly dependent on the State for the means their own good. That period of incipient manof prolonging his existence. From his misfortune hood, instead of being spent in the exciting field or fault he has lost the capacity of sustaining him- of politics, should be devoted to preparation for self, and can contribute no strength, physical, men- some useful calling by which they may fight the tal or material, to aid in sustaining the State. battle of adult life successfully. Mr. Chairman, it Those who do this, rightfully constitute the State. will be seen from what I have said, that I would Therefore the dependence existing between the exclude from the electoral class all but adult men State and the pauper is not reciprocal, but all on possessing the requisite degree of knowledge and one side. The pauper is indebted to the State for integrity. This I believe to be the proper limit of everything, including life; the State is indebted the elective franchise if we would have good govto the pauper for nothing. Rightly considered, ernment. It differs from the boundaries estabhe is no longer a member of the State, but one of lisled by our present Constitution only in this: a helpless class who live through its bounty. Sir, it rejects the property qualification now let us be careful, lest sentiments of kindness or required of colored men, and it requires a party interests mislead our judgments on this ques- higher standard of intelligence, and also, if it be tion. The proposition that those who contribute feasible, of integrity. I would abandon the trace no strength to the State, and are themselves wholly of property qualification remaining in our Constisupported by its bounty, have a right to share tution for two reasons; first, because it is invidin its government, is so palpably insound, that I ious in being applied only to colored men; and am persuaded gentlemen who support it now secondly, because experience has shown that its will hereafter have occasion to regret it. The possession does not confer political knowledge. It other prerequisite insisted on by the learned gen- may, perhaps, be best to retain this requirement tieman from Oneida [Mr. T. W. Dwight], in some degree in the government of cities, which appears to me to be wholly unnecessary. are not properly of a political nature, but relate If interest in the State entitles a per- mainly to the care and regulation of property. son to the right of suffrage, all persons are But in relation to the State government, I would entitled to it, for every man, woman and child, adandon it altogether. Men of wealth are usualincluding public paupers, have an interest in it. ly so absorbed in the acquisition and care of propAll are indebted to it for the protection of their erty that they have little leisure or inclination to relative rights, and for their security against force, take an interest in public affairs. When violence and fraud. In fact, other portions of the bad government is brought home to them in the animal kingdom have an interest in the govern- form of riotous disorder or onerous taxation they meit, as witness our laws for the prevention of are both loud and indiscriminate in their denuncruelty to animals.. Nay, more, the vegetable ciations of public men, and occasionally make a kingdom is not without such interest, as witness spasmodic effort at reform. But being, from their our laws for the protection of useful plants from habitual inattention to public affairs, "most the domination of the hardier, noxious varieties, ignorant of what they're most assured," they are such as the Canada thistle. For these reasons i apt to make a sad failure of it, and not unfre. think the gentleman should eliminate "interest" quently make matters worse instead of better. from his list of prerequisites. It embraces too As regards intelligence, I think the people of this much. Sir, even the great prerequisites, intelli State, and of the United States, have not sufgence and integrity, essential as they are to the ficiently heeded the importance of that quality itt attainment of good government, should not, in my the governing class. Overlooking the importt opinion, induce the State to confer the right of fact that the electors reproduce their own aversuffrage on all who possess them. I would with- age of intelligence in the representative body, hold it, as we now withhold it, from woman and they have placed the standard of knowledge ~tl from minors. Woman, I think, has quite as much low. The present tendency seems to bei fa intelligence as our own sex, and she has more ther depression, which I regard as most impolitie purity. She would, therefore, make an unexcep- if not dangerous. What the public good cl tionable elector or representative. But I would demands is a higher* standard of intelligenceft withhold from her the right to exercise either fune- voters; and for one I am preepared to tae a it tion, for her own sake. The delicacy of her na- step in that direction, such as the aend e^ tore and ie fineness of her sensibiies forbid e offered propoes Its adoption, as I ba tat;she should enter the arena of politcs8,toshare ala.dy;said, wo: d not exclude froml te its fierce and demoralizing contests. Such duties any who hale now he right to vote:t* Iwe l are better suited to the rougher nature of man, butmerely a to ut clamat f tyou wis you 494 name enrolled n the governing class, you must session of that body, an amendment to the ConAfrst learn to read and write. This require- stitution of the United States similar to the one I ulent is as reasonable as it is proper. If the have offered. I welcome his movement as a ppliant has too little of intellect or of self- bow of promise for the future of our common restect to thus qualify himself, he would be prop- country; but I hope we shall not permit Congress erly excluded. A kindred proposition will be to anticipate us in this salutary reform. I am unpresented for the consideration of the Conven- willing that the Empire State should lag a step tion, making the education of all children in behind the foremost on any of the paththe State compulsory; The adoption of the ways that lead to a -higher civilization. two provisions would do much to suppress igno- If she would excel in intellectual development, rance in the community, and in an equal degree she must stimulate the demand for education by to elevate the character of our State. Sir, I am strengthening the motives for its acquisition. The aware that ftis proposition to curtail the ex- well-known principle of commerce, that supply is isting boundaries of the elective franchise, measured by the demand, is equally true in although intended only to apply to those who politics and morals. Increase the motives have never yet been entitled to vote, will strike for education by making it a prerequisite for soe gentlemen as an impolitic departure from our voting, and you may be sure of soon hitherto uniform practice of enlargement. The finding every adult male in possession of it. gentleman from Rensselaer, with his liberal views The objection urged by the Committee on Suffrage, of suffrage, will doubtless regard it as a downright that it would be difficult to apply this restriction wrong. That gentleman cannot value more highly impartially, appears to me ungrounded. The than I do the truths contained in the Declaration capacity to read) the Constitution would be suffiof Independence; nor can he place a higher qsti- ciently demonstrated by the applicant for registramate on the political wisdom of its author. But I tion, by his reading any one of its sections that beg to remind him that neither the author himself, the registrars might designate, and his capacity to nor any of his contemporaries or successors, ever write by recording his own name in the registry attempted, in practice, the literal enforcement of of voters. I can see no danger of partiality or unthe principle of universal suffrage. Why, sir, in fairness in matters as simple and direct as these. the broadest extension of the franchise that has Let us not fear that the people are unprepared ever obtained in any one of the United States, or to take this step forward, provided it be proper in any State with whose history I am acquainted, and salutary. They are ripe for every proper not one-fifth of the entire population have been reform, and they are quite as capable of determinentitledto vote. Under our present Constitution ing that point as we are, and they are more likely we exclude all of one sex and all minors to act up to their convictions, because they have no of the other. We also exclude nearly all whose constituency standing behind them, to affect their skins are not white; all of foreign birth of less action or weaken their moral courage. I trust the than five years residence or who have not been amendment will receive the favorable consideranaturalized; all native born citizens of the United tion of the committee and the Convention. States who havenot been residents of the State for Mr. CONGER -If I understand the honorable twelve months; all convicted criminals, and per- gentleman from New York [Mr. Opdyke] correctsons ofunsound mind. Why have we not lived ly, he has presented the mercantile view of the up to our original theory of unlimited suffrage? foundation of government and the structure of The answer is obvious. It has not been deemed society. He has laid down the broad and univeroompatible with the public good. This is the sal postulate that all we hold in society of human true test of suffrage, asit is of every other pre- right, or under government of human liberty and rogative of government. And,sir, it is solely on that sovereignty, is simply in the nature of a commercial ground that I would prospectively exclude those quid pro quo. He says we make a bargain with a who cannot read and write. Reading and writing, man for his services for a specified time, whether as I admt, are not unerring indices of the intelligence a laborer, an associate in business, or a representarequiite for the proper performance of govern- tive of the people; or society agrees with a citizen mental functions; but I think the absence of that for the protection of his life, liberty and sovereignknoledge may,as a general rule,be regarded as evi- ty, and opens its political ledger with him for the dineeof unfitness. At all events, its requirement especial security of the latter, solely on the conwill be a step in the right direction, and it will dition of self-support. It is all one and the selfserve as a basis for a higher step hereafter. The same thing. The gentleman has laid down the'Pro essential elements of good popular government custean bed on whi sh all must lie. When the bar0ae intelligent electors and faithful representatives, gain is concluded by the occurrence of peciniouas exludding the lowest: grade of Ignorance we dependence there is an end of all reciprocitdis of all er a higher average of intelligence in the kindness and humanity. Is it come to this, Mr. Chairs et If hope weshall be able, also, to devise man,in this enlightened age of the world,tiata iti 0Its fokr elevating the standard ofofficial fidelity. zen must be told, because through misfortune in It'-esowplsh both, I am 9onfident the effect on business and the infirmities of age -has ceased to hs eater of ourtate government cannot fail support himself, that society owes him nothing o salutary At least twoa ofa our sis- htIobligation with societybeing that during hisrelaX tt.-MssacBusetts and aionnecticut.-.4"v tion with an existence In it he must support himdo i f sufag prpsed by this selff That this is the bargain which societyt nt d, I informed, have found its makes with every individual; as the ground of hi il amot soaft y i Aley, etwando ate and hisight f C r fro hio, pro 4*a tecet politia steae, that he must never be weak 495 even in misery or old age? The honorable gent upon, Mr. Chairman, to say what I have int el tieman [Mr. Opdyke], unfortunately for' the natdn of threason why I itdued thre uniformity of his theory, alluded to a class tion that I did, and wh I nowvote against the of his associates, who, according to his own proposition of the gentleman from New YorkMr. showing, have ceased to perform the political Opdyke]. functions they owe, and being men high in repute, Mr. BARNARD-When a proposition is sub. with wealth and ability, throw over to others the mitted to the consideration of the Convention, th duties that they ought to sustain towards political first thing that strikes my mind is. society, and refuse to vote or participate in thehow will it operate practically? This prop care and defense of political rights. If the bar- osition is that no person shall vote after gain of society with the voter was that he could certain time, unless he can read the ConstitUi only exercise the privilege by a continued and a tion of the State in the English language. Thi continuous exercise of his functions of independ- way to test that is to compel a man when he comes ence, personal or political, as a voter, why then, up to vote to read the Constitution-to put it int in a commercial aspect, and on the showing of the his hands. Now, I inquire, what would be the gentleman, when once by indifference a citizen had condition of affairs if a voter were to step up to suffered political bankruptcy, he also should be vote in our district, where we have not time to deprived of the elective franchise. But I do not take them as fast as they can get their names desire to detain the committee further than this, found in the register, and to put this Constithat it is not possible now to narrow the founda- tution, consisting of twenty-five printed pages tions of government, or to place the organic laws in their hands and say, " My friend you cannot of society on any other foundation than that on vote unless you read this Constitution. Now, which our fathers have placed them; a sure foun- read that Constitution." It would take from an dation of right as recognized in society, well hour to an hour and a half for a man to read it, defined, and not to be deponed except for crime. and when it was read, every word of it, he has If one gentleman wishes to apply a mercantile not read it in the English language. I find by law, why may not some other gentleman apply looking here, that there are English words, that some other professional law and establish some there are Latin words here, that there are native other test? But the gentleman gives us another test. Irish words in this Constitution, and that there and that is that a man, in order to exercise his are native American words here, and surely, unpolitical function, must read and write the Eng- less we can explain all these words, and translat lish language; however intelligent he may be, them into the English language, we are not however useful as a citizen of a foreign State, if permitted to vote. Take the case of " Ontario." he comes here with all the learning and intelli- I believe that is a native American word. Take gence of a Lieber or an Agassiz, he is not to be the words "Schenectady," "Tioga," and "Ospermited to exercise the elective franchise unless wego," and fifty other words I see before me at he consents to this ordeal, to be tested at the this time, any one of them is any other word but polls, that he can write his name, or read the an English word. Now when you find that this Constitution ir the English language. I think test will not apply, when you find that reading we have only to show that such a test as this is does not entirely consist in spelling words, but not an addition to the securities of civil liberty, sometime we may have inspectors of election who nor, I am bold to say any furtherance of the are professors of elocution, and if you mispronounce educational hopes of this Commonwealth. a word, they will say, "You don't read that cr Mr. BOWEN-No one appreciates more than I rectly in the English language; you cannot vote." do the importance of an intelligent and virtuous I hope we will be able at some other day to come constituency, and if a practical test of a proper to the proposition that has been alluded to by the degree of intelligence be ascertained, I am in gentleman to-day [Mr. BrowerJ, and then we ill favor of adopting it, but the difficulty in my do all we can to promote the education of th mind is the question whether the ability to read people, by compulsory measures, if you please, bu and write in the English language or in any other let alone the privilege of voting. language bed such a test. It appears to me that Mr. LEE-I simply rise to expres myself a there are many.people who have sufficient decidedly in favor of the principle of the amenpdintelligence and sufficient virtue to exercise ment offered by the gentleman from New Yor properly the 'elective franchise, yet are unable to [Mr. Opdyke]. The people of the State of Ne read and write. It is true that I had the honor of York, here in their wisdom, at very gr introducing a resolution before the Convention, at expense, provided free schools all over the o A: an early day, similar to the proposition now intro- built school-houses, fniiished teachers, and b AI dued by the gentleman from New York tMr. thrown the doors wide open, inviting all s thee Opdyke], but it will be borne in mind that that zens of the State, old and young, that cHl was accompanied by a preamble setting'for th theenter free. I presume that this movement:iit fact that a resolution had been introduced onthe part of the people of the State has been:in t subjeet of compulsory education, and the object oflf the value they attach to tte that resolution, introduced by me, was, asa substi Well sir, if that:be so andf tit:b truj t t tat and as I thought the proper substitute for orn opular goernen are founded pulse ory edationand ifthatpropositionrshall bn- gene and vi-tue, and if the tpera e ltrded intot the OonIentiortanaIshali Itrodcp 'latr' nit itlt rnm the 'po:tlon for the abilityto read a rid t inue aonlyso lona'inteliene * eluiitettht^oinit of X-th*teln#.@ew an seethe 'mimptancei of fe t iaordti oi Ieled0 tert ot o b 496 the nature and the genius of our institutions, so I am precluded from submitting any amendment, tatthe would act wisely in this regard, and I coupled with a proposition for separate submissimply wish to bear testimoy in favor of the prin- sion, I am willing to have the amendment ciple of this proposition, and to say that I do not which I have drawn passed upon independent of believe, or, in other words, I am not in favor of any proviso for a separate submission, and if an any coercive measure, although I desire very opportunity be hereafter afforded me, to offer it in greatly that all children and the adults of the connection with such proviso- and if by the future State may be so far intelligent as to be able to action of this Convention, any mode can be read and write Yet I would furnish all the adopted by which tie question of negro suffrage inducements within Qur power to instruct can be submitted separately, I should be disposed the citizens of the State to qualify them- to go even farther than I have in the amendment elves to act intelligently as electors, and which I offer. But whether the project of therefore as well for the benefit of the individual, separate submission be carried or not, I am willing as for the safety of the State, should require to go to the extent to which my amendment soiething equivalent to the amendment offered will carry me. The object which I have had by the gentleman from New York [Mr. Opdyke]. in view in drawing this amendment has been to I think the safety and permanency and the vast remove some of the objections urged by gentleinterests of the institutions of the country depend men upon this floor-objections upon the one side upon that. to a separate submission, and objections upon the The question was then put on the amendment other side to extending negro suffrage in any of the gentleman from New York [Mr. Opdyke], direction, or conferring the elective franchise upon and on a division it was declared lost by a vote any new class of people. I shall not stop to conof 38 to 63. sider the question whether or not this right of Mr. BURRILL-I offer the following amend- franchise is or is not a natural right. That ment: question has been considered and discussed The SECRETARY proceeded to read the amend- by almost every gentleman on the floor of ment, as follows: this Convention, and every gentleman must Add to the first section the following: by this time have become familiar with all the Provided, That no man of color other than those arguments which may be advanced pro or con who are elected under the existing Constitution, upon that proposition. It will be sufficient to and those who may be born in this State, shall be refer to the action of the framers of our several entitled to vote under the provisions hereof. Constitutions as furnishing a clear indication of If the qualified electors of the State, at the an intention on their partto exercise a right which general election to be held in November, 1867, on they supposed they possessed. Their action may a proposition to be separately submitted in rela- well be regarded as a clear assertion of a distinct tion to suffrage of men of color, shall determine right on their part to make a discriinnation that all men of color shall be entitled to vote, sub- between the different classes of our own citizens, ject to the same qualifications and restrictions as and to prescribe what qualifications and restricare imposed upon the electors of the State, then tions shall be placed upon the right to vote. and ii that case the above proviso shall not take Objection has been made by many to the extension effect. of the right of suffrage to the black race, for the The CHAIRMAN-The Chair is of the opinion reason that as a class and a race they have not that the latter part of the proposition offered by sufficient intelligence to exercise such right with the gentleman from New York [Mr. Burrill] is credit to themselves or benefit to the State. Other not in order under the resolution of the Conven- gentlemen are in favor of extending the right to tion. that race; some- on the ground that in their Mr. BURRILL-Then I beg leave to offer the opinion all persons have a natural right to vote, amendment with the last clause stricken out. At others-on the ground that the black race as a the time the amendment was drawn, Mr. Chair- race have sufficient intelligence to exercise that man, I was in hope we might be able to pass right, and may safely be intrusted with it. I upon the question of submitting to the people propose, by the amendment which I have introseparately the proposition of extending the elec- duced, to disfranchise no man, but to leave tie ranchise to colored persons, before the frame the law exactly as it now sands. I prothe ConstitutionI should be adopted by the pose to leave to every man who is entitled onvention. I have heretofore stated that to my to vote under the existing Constitution, the exermind there existed a practical difficulty in cise of that privilege, and to extend the right of Securing the separate submission of any question franchise to such persons of color as may be born hater the instrument has been completed, unless in this State, so as to make it reasonably b rtain w aaopted tle suggestion made by one gentle- that this class shall, before exercising the right, mt Upon this floor, that amendments to the become possessed of the necessary intelligence g Constitution should be proposed in the and eduction to enable tem to exers-mlf amendments. I should have been dis- vise such right with credit to themselves ose~4 hid te question been ipassed upon and and benefit to the State. I agree thai l:ii s Convention that the right f the it is our duty to do what we can to elevate o sufitlfae should be subritted to the pe o ple and to give them the means of ate r sitio ' have su itted obtaining education andh opportuty t de. eo y prositon in regard to that velop suc te-igelce as they may= possess..piet wh~i'''^ th ie embers'of' this 0on- Lot themha h s4a e, our schools-gie th1.l^^ljll^^^gi^~lo hiatlol (*<~~i|^ 4:97 opportunity to improve themselves-and if it shall be found hereafter that they have been so far improved and acquired so much knowledge and information as to enable them to exercise the right of franchise properly and beneficially, then the people of this State may confer that right upon them. The principle of my amendment is that this franchise shall not be enjoyed until those upon whom it is sought to confer it, shall have the opportunity of acquiring the necessary intelligence and information to enable them to exercise it properly. I do not propose, sir, as I have already said, to disfranchise any, but to leave the matter as it now stands — to allow those who now have the right under the existing Constitution to retain it, and to confer that right upon all those who may hereafter be born in this State, so that we may insure the possession by this people, as a class or race, of the necessary qualifications to enable them to exercise the right properly. I am free to say that were we here to legislate for individuals-if I myself had the right to select individuals from one race or the other who should have the right to vote, there are some who now have the right from whom I would be very willing to take it, and I would confer it upon others who though competent by reason of their intelligence and education to exercise do not now enjoy it. But, sir, we are not legislating for any particular individuals, but for an entire race. If I could be satisfied in my mind that the objections I here urged against this class or race are not sound, and that, as a class or race. they possess the necessary qualifications of intelgence and information, I might be willing to open the door to all. But, sir, that is a responsibility I do not feel called upon to take. It is a matter which the people of this State must pass upon themselves. I disagree, sir, entirely with those gentlemen upon this floor who say that they are unwilling to submit to the people of this State for their consideration, as a separate proposition, any measure which does not meet their own hearty approval. On the contrary sir, if any respectable minority of this House shall propose any measure which it desires to have submitted to the people separately, so that their views might be taken upon that question independently of all other questions, I shall be perfectly willing to submit it whether I approve it or not. I am willing to submit as a separate proposition the question of female suffrage, or that of negro suffrage, or any other proposition involving important principles which any respectable portion of this body may desire to submit in that way. Mr. Chairman, I have had another object in drawing the amendment in the language in which I have. I desire, if possible, to embody in the Constitution of this State the assertion of a principle, the correctness of which I believe, and for which I shall contend, and that is the principle which 1 enunciated yesterday, viz.: the unlualified and exclusive right of the people of this State, in their sovereign capacity, to determine who shall and w shall not exercise the elective franchise within its liitts. I have drawn this amendment foripurofeig the exclusive right o 63 this State to do that, and for the purpose also of denying any claim which might be made, or any inference which might be drawn that we recognize the right of the Federal government or any branch of the Federal Congress, to interfere with us in that regard. I wish to draw the attention of the Convention to the language of a proposed amendment of the Federal Constitution and also to the language of the bill which has been proposed in Congress on this subject. As said yesterday, I believe in that doctrine. I believe that the people of this State have the right to prescribe who shall be entitled to the right of franchise, within its territorial limits, and further I believe that it is an exclusive right, and one in respect to which we cannot submit to be interfered with. The right to vote exists by virtue of citizenship of the State and pot by virtue of any citizenship of the United States, if any such thing there be. Congress has no right to interfere in regard to this matter. It has no power to determine who are, and who are not, citizens of the United States. It has no power to legislate in regard thereto, except such as is conferred by the Constitution, and such power is limited to the passage of uniform laws, in regard to the naturalization of aliens. That power is conferred by the Constitution and is derived from the States themselves, and it would be strange if the States could confer a power which they did not themselves possess, and which they could not exercise or control. It seems to me very plain and clear, from the fact that the only power that Congress has is derived from the Constitution-that such power is restricted to the passage of uniform laws in regard to naturalization. and that such power is conferred by the States themselves, that the States must possess full and complete power to regulate and control the franchise so far as it is to be exercised within the respective States. I called the attention of the committee yesterday, very briefly, to the language of the proposed fourteenth amendment to the Constitution of June 16, 1866. The first section of that amendment is as follows: " All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty or property without due process of law, nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction te equal protection of the law." Now, if the argument of gentlemen upon thi< floor be correct, that this right of franchise isa privilege or immunity, or is a natural right^ or one of those privileges mentioned in the sectnd section of the fourth article of the originaFl eoral Constitution, and which follows the persnotiH the citizen in every State to which he imay it would necessarily follow firom the langa t this proposed amendment to the Fedrai tution, just read, that after its ad option ould pass or enforce any law giving t citizens, or t hose whom it miglt hoii omak Iete ci s, the righto vote, or Wishl 4I pseiet' aadr was onts 1ffiml 498 (Including citizens of other States) from exercisaih such right. I am opposed to any such construction, and I deny that Congress has any power in the premises. The second section of the same amendment,, to which I desire to call the attention of the committee, is this: ' "epresentatives shall be apportioned among the several States according to their respective numbers, counting the whole number of persons In each State, excluding Indians not taxed. But when the right to vote at any election for the choice of electors for President and Vice-President of the United States, representatives in Congress, the executive and judicial officers of a State, or the members of the Legislature thereof, is denied to any of the male inhabitants of such State, being twenty-one years of age, and citizens of the United States, or in any way abridged, except for participation 'in the rebellion or other crime, the basis of representation therein shall be reduced in the proportion which the number of such male citizens shall bear to the whole number of male citizens twenty-one years of age in such This section, therefore, in substance, provides that if we undertake here to deny to any male citizen of the United States, who is an inhabitant of this State, this right to vote, then our basis of representation shall be lessened. If the first section be regarded as valid and in force, then every person born in the United States, or naturalized citizen, without regard to race or color, is a citizen of the United States, and under the second section of the proposed amendment, is entitled to vote without any restriction whatever, on the part of the State. The substance of the amendment referred to is simply this: that any native born or naturalized citizen of the United States, who becomes an inhabitant of this State shall be admitted to vote on the same terms as any other inhabitant of this State shall be entitled to vote, and that if we attempt to abridge this right in this State, we shall be punished by a reduction of our representation in the proportion which the number of the riale inhabitants so injuriously discriminated against may bear to the whole number of male ctzes of the age of twenty-one years in this state. I desire, therefore, to present this question directly to this committee and to the Convention, and to ascertain whether or not the doctrine is to be established by this Convention, that t; people of this State shall not regulate and control this right of franchise, or whether such right shall be enjoyed by all persons who may be declared by Congress to be citizens of the UnitA States, without any restriction, and without y rigt on our part to impose restrictions, save under the penalty above provided. But, sir, that pot ll. For the purpose of showing that the a dent eferred to is susceptible of the cont% etion which I have suggested, and that there me wo are isposed to give it such con0i046siI.n. 1 invite the attention of the committee ttitebillwhchasbeu introduced into Congress cetsi~n Thebill provides as O.pli^i Ai ZaN^ ^^1^V slave, or by reason of race -or, color I deprived of equal rightsi shall, in every State and Territory,, have tl)e right, if DOtotherwise disqualified to be registered and to vote at allelections for members, of Congress, for presidential electors, for representatives and senators to State or Territorial legialatures, for all State, county, city, town, and other officers of every kind, upon thesame terms and conditions, and Do other, as white citizens are, and may be allowed to be registered and to vote-, and every State and Territorial Constitution, statute., and ordinance which is Dow or hereafter may be enacted, and every custom and %principle of law heretofore recognized in any State or Territory, contrary to the foregoing provisions, are 1ereby declared null and void." That brings up the question directly and squarely whether or not this right of franchise is to be enjoyed within the territorial limits of this State, under the conditions and subject to such restric-,tiODS and modifications as we ma impose, or whether it is to be enjoyed under some permission:to be accorded by the Federal Congress, entirely irrespectiveof the control of the people of this State and those who may represent it. I have, therefore, drawn my amendment for the pur-pose of briDging the Constitution which we may frame directly within the reach of the first see. tion of the proposed amendment to the fourteenth article of the Federal Constitutfop, and also directly within the reach of this proposed bill in Congress, so that it may be seen whether or not we are to take a stand in regard to the right of the State to restrict those who may be here and to control the right of the elective franchise, or whether it is to be entirely taken from us and to be disposed of as Congress may see fit to grant. If Congress has that power then our time has been wasted, and we may as well go home, so far as any good we may do here.. Mr. RATHBUN -Will the gentleman [Mr. Burrill] allow me to ask him a question? I would like to know whether whtAt lie has read is a law or only a bill? Mr. BURRILL - It is, a bill introduced. I have said All I desire to say in reference to this subject, and I shall have accomplished my object if I have directed the attention of this Convention to the consideration of the important prin 6iples involved in the discussions before this committee. As I have already said, my amendinept does not seek the disfraDchisement of any class which now has the right; on the contrary, it, opens the vay to secure this right to Persons born hereafter. It also brings forward prominently the question which =ist at some tij*e be determined, whether the State shall wntrO the question of franchise, or whether it shall be detorJoined by the Federal Legislature. Mr. HUTCIfINS - I would like to know from he gentleman [Mr. Burrill] whether I correc0y,,::, Onderstood him to say that the Constitutioxi of the United States nowhere reco 'Zes a person All a q1tizen of the United, States t Mr.:BU]14TIAt No, air;.1, e a id pot SAY. so f a Mr. 14 Opposed to the fiOnd Oom New York, Avor of Ahe,- report ot tbo` slave, or by reason of race or coor or deprived of equal rights, shall, in every State and Territory, have the right, if not otherwise disqualified to be registered and to vote at all elections for members of Congress, for presidental electors, for representatives and senators to State or Territorial legislstures, for all State, county, city, town, and other officers of every kind, upon the same terms and conditions, and no other, as white citizens are, and may be allowed to be registered and to vote; and every State and Territorial Constitution, statute, and ordinance which is now or hereafter may be enacted, and every custom and principle of law heretofore recognized in any State or Territory, contrary to the foregoing provisions, are hereby declared null and void." That brings up the question directly and squarely whether or not this right of franchise is to be enjoyed within the territorial limits of this State, under the conditions and subject to such restrictions and modifications as we may impose, or whether it is to be enjoyed under some permission to be accorded by the Federal Congress, entirely irrespective of the control of the people of this State and those who may represent it. I have, therefore, drawn my amendment for the purpose of bringing the Constitution which we may frame directly within the reach of the first section of the proposed amendment to the fourteenth article of the Federal Constitution, and also directly within the reach of this proposed bill in Congress, so that it may be seen whether or not we are to take a stand in regard to the right of the State to restrict those who may be here and to control the right of the elective franchise, or whether it is to be entirely taken from us and to be disposed of as Congress may see fit to grant. If Congress has that power then our time has been wasted, and we may as well go home, so far as any good we may do here. Mr. RATHBUN-Will the gentleman [Mr. Burrill] allow me to ask him a question? I would like to know whether what he has read is a law or only a bill? Mr. BURRILL —It is a bill introduced. I have said all I desire to say in reference to this subject, and I shall have accomplished my object if I have directed the attention of this Convention to the consideration of the important principles involved in the discussions before this committee. As I have already said, my amendment does not seek the disfranchisement of any class which now has the right; on the contrary, it opens the way to secure this right to persons born hereafter. It also brings forward prominently the question which must at some time be determined, whether the State shall contro the question of franchise, or whether it hall be determined by the Federal Legislature. Mr. HUTCgfINS-I would like to know from the gentleman [Mr. Burrill] whether I correctly understood him to say that the Constitution of the United States nowhere recognizes a person as a (tizen of the United States? Mr. BUR AILLd- No, sir; I did not say so Mr. AXTEL- I am opposed to the amenH mend offeredby my friend from ew York [Mr. urril1], and I am it faWs of ithe report of the i1ajoity of the mittee o te ight of f 499 frage, and also in favor of the amenement to that the better and more respectable clases of th report offered by the gentleman from Cayuga opposition, equally with the party with which I [Mr. C. C. Dwight], in so far as they both relate have the honor to be associated, would, if th to the colored question. The purpose of the subject could be disentangled from party and pai report is evidently to remove one of the vexed tisan animosities, vote for removing this claa' questions ot political dissensions, and I sustain distinction, as proposed by the report of the mathe report for the same purpose, not because I am jority of the committee. There are, to be sure, prone, from my profession. to indulge in political some respectable men of that party, whose ariaanimosities as my colleague, the gentleman tocratic and monarchial tendencies would cause from Clinton [Mr. Weed] the other day intimated them to vote against any extension of suffrage-and at this point I may be allowed to say some of the political associates and neighbors of that neither the profession to which I my colleague the gentleman from Clinton (Mr. have the honor to belong, nor any member of it, Weed]-who think and proclaim that republican need apprehend any partictlar damage, either government is a failure, and that monarchy is the from the flings or commendations of that gentle- only form of government fit for a gentleman to man. The report of the majority of the commit- live under-men who publicly thanked God dutee, and the amendment of the gentleman from ring the war for the asylum for the oppressed Cayuga [Mr. C. C. Dwight] alike propose to re- found in Canada; but the loyal and liberalmove this question from party discussions. I have minded men of that party, if the question shall been accused upon this floor of attempting to be untrammeled, will vote for equal rights and make a party issue on this question, whereas it equal privileges. The sending of this queshas been my constant aim and desire to remove tion to the people, as the report of the cornit entirely from the field of party politics. I am rnittee proposes, without any proviso in the tired of this discussion of the negro. Though Constitution for a separate submission, without never to any extent mixed up with the discussion anywhere in that instrument recognizing or admitof it by words, 1 have heard and seen the subject ting the rightfulness of a class distinction - does discussed with other arguments. I have heard in itself disentangle the subject from party polland seen something of a discussion with other tics. It places before the people an instrument arguments -cannon shot and shell and rifle balls symmetrical and complete, embodying the views of -in which the main proposition under discussion the m6st of the gentlemen of this Convention was the principle of the gentleman from New upon the propositions which are the subject of it. York [Mr. Burrill] in regard to the supremacy of Now sir, is not this mode presented by the State citizenship, and the question of the color- majority report the fair and manly mode of preed man as an incident. The discussion of senting this subject? Is it not manly and honest, that main proposition ended with the surren- as contrasted with the attempt to defeat the der of Mr. Lee at Appomattox Court-House; reform by the political strategy of separate submisand when that mode of discussing the subject sion. The gentleman from Clinton [Mr. Weed] was ended, I did hope that the whole subject stated some time since that I gave as a reason was closed, so far at least as it relates to for opposing' separate submission and sustaining' the policy of this State, but I have been disap- the report of the committee, that I feared if sepa — pointed; the question has been re-opened by the rately submitted, it might be. defeated. But in gentlemen of the opposition, and for what purpose that he misrepresented me, though without doubt they best understand, but these gentlemen well unintentionally. I did say that there was a possiknow, that, but for the attitude they have assumed bility that it might be defeated, but is this by any in this Convention, the question in this State, was fair interpretation to be twisted into a confession practically closed. I have been also accused on that we are afraid of defeat? To take the proper this floor of charging the democratic party with means to prevent defeat does not in any wise the riots of 1863, and that the party is largely imply a fear of defeat? We are not afraid of composed of criminals. No language of mine justi- defeat, because we intend to use the proper and fies any such accusation. I remarked'that the wise precautions which will prevent defeat. Let criminal classes would vote against the full enfran- me show the absurdity of the position of the genchisement of the colored man if the question were tleman from Clinton and others by referring to an; submitted separately, and thus made a party issue. incident. On one occasion, during the late war, I have no doubt that there are criminals in the we found ourselves, after some hard and sueces, republican party as well as in the opposition. I ful fighting in the morning, with two loyal divi. instanced certain classes of criminals, among sion in front of a formidable position of the enemy, them those who burned negroes. thinking, of with orders to attack at a certain time. The:ti course, that those who had no scruples that pre- were three strong bastidned forts. Between our vented them from burning negroes in 1863 might division and the center fort which we were to ig - possibly be so tinged with prejudice as to vote tack, was a distance of about 1400yards, eoy ve against giving them equal rights in 1867, but in with a tangled mass of fallen timber; thrg referring to this I utterly disclaim any intention these obtrn ins we were to move under the j(d of charging the democratic party with the riots fortyor fifty pieesof artillery. Now ir;,; of 1,863. Those rioters may have been the pot- the nobl man who commandedur diV al fieds the gentleman frm lint rom tcrrible day, had said to s s siperii0'r, his sensitiveness I conelude they were, but tht a e to suggest that.over re. th' alI was no ar of mine, nor firly inferab fro i oot d unbstructed by asythisaid by me. And in connection with lom apaoihl.e cni frmk i that remark I distinctly declared my opinion tha in at rave and get much ne 500 receiving their fire; if we are put in there we shall be far more certain to succeed if we are compelled to move through all these obstructions there is a possibility of failure. Stop, says the superior; you are admitting that you fear defeat; that is cowardice; it will be cowardly to do as you propose. But, general, cannot you see that there is a combination of circumstances which makes our success almost an absolute certainty if you put my division in, in the manner I have indicated? No matter, sir, no matter; to move your division over the smoother ground would be to confess a fear of defeat. Now, sir, we are to-day in front of this last stronghold of class prejudice in this State. We propose to storm this stronghold and level it to the ground. To advance to the attack by the way of separate submission, is to move through a tangled mass of prejudices and partisan passions, and party discipline, and under a fierce cannonade of party misrepresentationsThe CHAIRMAN-The Chair must call the gentleman [Mr. Axtell] to order. Under the resolution adopted, the question of a separate submission cannot be now discussed. Mr. AXTELL- Can I proceed in order? Mr. WEED-I trust the gentleman [Mr. Axtell] may he allowed to go on. Mr. AXTELL —To advance by the way of combined submission, as indicated in the majority report, is to remove at the outset the obstructions of party passions and prejudices, to silence the guns of the enemy, and secure the success of the attack. Which mode shall we choose? Which is wise? We have the power of choosing our mode of attack, and our point d'appui. Shall we allow our enemy to choose them for us? Mr. NELSON-I move that the committee do now rise, report progress, and ask leave to sit again. I make this motion to enable me to move in Convention that all speeches in Committee of the Whole be hereafter confined to five minutes. The question was put on the motion of Mr. Nelson and'it was declared lost. The question then recurred on the amendment of Mr. Burrill.and it was declared lost. Mr. GRAVES-I offer the following amendment: *. The SECRETARY proceeded to read the amendment as follows: Add to the first section: And all women of lawful age of like citizenhip, may vote for the same officers at the same elections-ift at an election to be held on the rst Tuesday iin June, 1868 (at which women alone over the age of twenty-one years, shall 'ote), a majority of all the votes given shall be in avor of exercising the elective franchise. r. OGRAVES -- Mr. Chairman-;. FOLQER -I would ask the Chair if the atetient proposed by the gentleman from Herlrr. Graes, does ndt include the idea of sparate s0ubmission. T:e Ci AIRMN — The Chair is of the opini tt rit: do The amendment, is not.pidr ttth first part.; RAVE-I:do not ask a separate sublotf tht Aendm0t. I oaty ask, under e tin that an electi; to e held in *- 'k June, 1868, if a majority of the women shall decide that they desire to vote, they shall be entitled to vote. The CHAIRMAN-The gentleman from Herkimer [Mr. Graves] has the floor. Mr. FOLGER-Do I understand from the Chairman that the point of order is abandoned? The CHAIRMAN-The Chair understands the proposition to be not for a separate submission of the proposition to the people, but a proposition to accord to woman the right to vote dependent upon their determination of the question. Mr. FOLGER - It is, then, not only a separate submission of a clause of the Constitution, but it provides for a submission of the question to a separate class. It has two elements of separation, and it is, therefore, doubly objectionable, and comes within the scope of the resolution offered by the gentleman [Mr. Graves] himself. The CH A I.RMAN - The Chair concurs entirely with the gentleman from Ontario [Mr. Folger], but it has endeavored to give the gentleman from Herkimer [Mr. Graves] an opportunity to be heard. The attention of the Chair having been again called to the subject, it must rule that the proposition of the gentleman [Mr. Graves] is out of order. The gentleman can take an appeal from the decision of the Chair if he desires. Mr. GRAVES —If it is so understood under the rule I will acquiesce. The CHAIRMAN-It is so understood underthe terms of the gentleman's own resolution by which the subject of separate consideration was deferred to a future period. Does the Chair understand the gentleman as appealing from its decision. Mr. GRAVES - If an appeal will give me the opportunity of discussing the merits of the question, I appeal. The CHAIRMAN —The Chair cannot put any bounds upon the gentleman's ideas in regard to the matter; but if the gentleman [Mr. Graves] departs from the matter of the appeal to debate the ground of his amendment, the Chair will feel compelled to call the gentleman to order. The gentleman from Herkimer appeals from the decision of the Chair. The question is shall the decision of the Chair stand as the judgment of the committee. Mr. GRAVES-I was about to state, Mr. Chairman,.that the rule adopted by the Convention limiting debate to twenty minutes (which is very properly enforced by the Chair), has compelled me to abridge the remarks which I intended to make and which are due to the question, and to present briefly, as I must, although in an undesired form, some of the reasons for seeking by this awendment to make conditional that which now appears to be unrestricted suffrage. i The CHAIRMAN-The Chair must call the gentleman from HIerkimer [Mr. Graves] to order. He has no right to discuss the merits of the question on an appeal. The question pending is shall the decision of the Chair stand as the judgment of this Committee? Mr. CURTIS- s that a debatable question? The CHAIRMAN - It is within certain limit. Mr. GRATES -I withdraw the appeal. I r. CASSDY-I ffr amendment, which in SIX E:0 age: \: t < < >:0 ~~~~~rJ,, e;: >t0:*: SSI'S;A;c fr M01 The SECRETARY proceeded to read the amendment as foilows: Add to the section: This section shall not apply to any man of color who shall not be an actual resident of this State at the time when this Constitution shall go into operation, unless such man of color shall have been for the five years immediately preceding, an actual resident of this State. Mr. CASSIDY-The object of this amendment is to place colored men, recently emancipated, upon the same basis as foreigners coming from Europe, who are compelled to reside five years in the country before they attain the full rights of citizenship. Mr. HUTCHINS - I would ask the gentleman from Albany [Mr. Cassidy] if that amendment includes white men who came from the South and voted in New York last fall? Mr. CASSIDY —No, sir, it only applies to negroes. The question was then put on the amendment of Mr. Cassidy, and it was lost, on a division, by a vote of 37 to 77. Mr. MAST EN -I have an amendment which I desire to offer, and which is designed to be a substitute for the second section. The SECRETARY proceeded to read the amendment, as follows: "SEc. 2. Laws may be passed excluding from the right of suffrage all persons who may have been or may be convicted of bribery or of any infamous crime; laws may also be passed for permitting and for depriving of the right of suffrage persons who shall pay or contribute, or agree to pay or contribute, or who shall receive or agree to receive any money, property or valuable thing to promote the election of any particular candidate or ticket, or who shall make or be interested in any bet or wager dependent upon the result of any election." Mr. MASTEN —I am as anxious as any gentleman in this Convention, that the purity of the election shall be preserved, and that all measures within the power, either of this Convention or of the Legislature, shall be resorted to, to accomplish that end. Now, I propose this amendment, for the purpose of giving to the Legislature the entire control of this matter. It is impossible that we should put in this Constitution a code of laws against bribery, and the only way to secure a competent and perfect code is by conferring ample powers upon the Legislature, so that the Legislature, from time to time, may perfect a code of laws in respect to that subject. Now, for.the purpose of showing concisely the fallacy of thus undertaking to place in the Constitution itself a code against btibery, or a code of laws on any subject, let us turn for a moment to the first branch of the report; the word "felons" is used there. I suppose it was not the intention of the honorable chairman [Mr. Greeley], who made that report, that persons who had been sen-.tenced to be confined in the State prison, should immedirtely on their coming out, be allowed to.vote; still they would be permitted under the seo-.tion reported by the committee, The word "felon " Jaas a well known signification at the common faw; and there are offenses now punishable by imprisonment in the State prison, which are "tn felonies; they were a misdemeanor at conimot law and the aggravating of the punishlment dod not make a misdemeanor a felony, nor does it change the character of a crime simply by reduc ing its punishment. Now the object doubtless is to protect and secure the purity of elections; that is the object on all hands. It will be found, sir, upon an examination, that the laws now in force upon our statute book are much more stringent and go much farther for the protection of the purity and freedom of elections than does anything that is contained in the report of this committee or in any of the amendments which have been proposed. That shows us, sir, the importance of leaving the whole of this matter to the Legislature, and giving them ample power to pass all the laws that from time to time may be found necessary to secure-meet devices and to secure the highly desirable end of making our elections pure and free. This provision, as it now stands may possibly raise another question, whether the inserting a provision in the Constitution in respect to particular cases may not take away from the Legislature the power of going beyond that which is contained in the Constitution itself, upon the doctrine that the expression of one thing excludes the other - expressio unus, exclusio ulterius; and for these reasons I think it is wise to give to the Legislature the most ample powers, and to leave it entirely to them instead of undertaking to insert a code against bribery, or against the purity of elections, in the Constitution itself. Mr. MILLER-I am strongly inclined to favor the proposition just offered by the gentleman from Erie [Mr. Masten]. I have not been able fully to catch every sentence in that amendment; but, sir, I am of the opinion that we shall do wisely if we shall leave the formation of the law-its minutis and machinery by which to prevent bribery and corruption at the polls-to the Legislature to enact instead of trying to put the provision in the Constitution itself. I think that a majority of this Convention are of one opinion in regard to the object sought to be attained. I think that we are all agreed that the improper use of money at the polls is a great and growing evil, and the only difference of opinion is as to the proper remedy. I, sir, am of the opinion that if we undertake to put the provision into the Constitution without any legislation we shall find that the schemes of designing men will get around or through the provisions that we shall frame. And, Mr. Chairman, I think that legislative enactment has this one great advantge over any provision of the Constitution, that it is liable to be, and can be changed as experience aid trial shall show the necessity for it. We all knw what we want to reach, and what the evil is tht we want to remedy, but if we fail in providing th exact remedy, the failure must stand for twenty' years, if the remedy is only a constitutional vision: but if we indicate strongly to the L ture our object and intention, and make it their duty to pass the law, if they fail fat the firistW sion, their failure can be remedied thenext and as trial and experience shall how dfeo can have other remedies applied, N:wthi ii mt0 will F e a crime if we ae it so- thim rB 502 8 of.the use of money at elections, is one that it Wuld be vry dificult to prevent at the first! ia l. 'Sir, if we make it a crime, it is a ime,in which two persons are only necessarily engaged; they are both equally guilty; neither of them has any motive for exposure, and it will be almost impossible to reach it except by the most carefully drawn provision of law, or provision of the Constitution. I like the plan proposed by the committee that it shall be made a ground of challenge, and that the person so challenged shall not vote until he shall purge himself by express denial under oath; but we can so instruct the Legislature to frame a law with that provision in it, and if we leave it with the provision in the Constitution, without any legislative enactment in aid of it, I am afraid that our law will be found defective. If it is too narrow it will be evaded and dodged. If it is drawn losely there will be some loop-hole that men will get through; and if it is drawn too broadly as I thought the proposition of the gentleman fiom Schenectady [Mr. Landon] was, if it reaches objects that public opinion will not say are corrupt, if it goes so far as to shut out the legitimate use of money which public opinion approves, it. will fall into disuse, disrespect and neglect. I think the only safe way is to leave the matter, with proper instructions and authority, to the Legislature to enact a law. Mr. CASSIDY -The difficulty which the Committee on the Right of Suffrage had in regard to that, desirous as they were of leaving this to the Legislature, was that the Legislature could enact no law requiring in addition to the qualification of age, residence, citizenship, etc.f any further requirement. No law which the Legislature has been able to pass within the past twenty years, has given a person the right to challenge a voter on the charge of bribery. It cannot be done under the existing Constitution, or under any other propition here made. In order to make it a ground of challenge, it must be specifically included in the Constitutional definition. It is not sufficient to say that the Legislature may pass laws to. prevent and punish bribery. They have always had and have exercised that power, but unavailingly. What is wanted is to make it a ground of challenge. Mr. MASTEN - My amendment is to deprive him of the right to vote. hR. CASSIDY-The amendment deprives him of the right to vote in further elections upon trial andconviction-that is the extent to which the amendment of the gentleman from Erie [Mr. aten], reaches. This provision is a self-executing onie!t applies only to the election at which the person presents himself. It allows him topurge himself of the accusation upon his own oath, and it invokes to its execution the vigilance s4 even the animosities of the contending parties. f afterelections we trust to parties and ndivkiuals to secure the punishment of those whohave bee guilty of bribery or who have violad otmelaw in regard to the elections we look resources whic are perfectly unavailing, as exiperien of twenty years has shown. We IiBni -i makef it:nst, therefore, in: some form or other make it h:: reund: oifehalte-o i in some effectual and sim-: pemner. I thik that is accomplished by. the provision as reported by the committee and amended by the gentleman from Schenectady [Mr. Landon]. Mr. HALE —I wish to inquire if the amendment is proposed to the amendment offered by the gentleman from Ontario [Mr. olger]? The CHAIRMAN- It strikes out the second portion of the amendment of the gentleman from Ontario [Mr. Folger], and inserts this in lieu tnereof. Mr. HALE -I would further inquire whether the amendment porposed by the gentleman from Schenectady [Mr. Landon] was adopted? The CHAIRMAN - It was adopted and became a part of the amendment of the gentleman from Ontario [Mr. Folger]. Mr. HALE - I would suggest, therefore, that the amendment, as proposed by the gentleman from Erie [Mr. Masten], would be incongruous with the amendment already adopted by the committee. The CHAIRMAN-The Chair would inform the gentleman from Essex [Mr. Hale] that the gentleman from Erie [Mr. Masten] offers his amendment as a substitute, and, therefore, it takes the place of the second section. Mr. LANDON - If this matter shall be referred to the Legislature to pass the laws necessary to prevent bribery and corruption at the election, it may be, from weakness of the Ltgislature or their indifference to that subject, that such laws may not be passed; or, if passed and referred to the courts to carry out their provisions, if we do not retain in our own hands the means by which we can enforce these provisions upon the day of election, I am fearful, sir, that we shall fail in preventing the corruption and bribery which all men deplore; but if we leave this matter so that we, the electors of the State, upon the day of the election, when we are eager and in earnest in regard to this matter, can apply the remedy, can then and there, by challenge and immediate proof, ascertain and exclude the corruptionists, we shall be able to stem the tide of corruption which now influences the elections. If we put this matter in the Constitution itself, we shall thereby be able to satisfy the people of the State that we do intend to put an end to bribery and corruption. If we refer the'matter to the Legislature, we shall subject ourselves to the suspicion that we are not in earnest in regard to it, and the people will doubt whether we do not really desire to leave this matter so that. the Legislature may pass a law through which fraud can drive a coach and four rather than pass one which shall effectually repress bribery and corruption. If it is feared fhat there may be some defect in this constitutional provision which Shall not fully carry out the purposes we have in view, then I would suggest that there be added to the provision as it now stands the further provision that the Legislature may, by appropriate legisla. tion, fully carry into effect the objects and purposes of this provision Then we shall have not only the constitutional enactment, but we shall place it within the power of the Legislature itself to add to that, so ihat if the constimt tioual enactment fails, then the Legislature can s tep;:rd* ifhonest and earnest im it t03 purposes, can supply the defect, and in thai way bribery and corruption can be suppressed. Mr. A. J. PARKER-I think the objection which is made by my colleague [Mr. Cassidy], tc the amendment of the gentleman from Erie [Mr. Masten], can be obviated by inserting two or three words. After the word "suffrage" there should be added the words "and exclude on challenge." This would give the Legislature power to enact a law to exclude on challenge. The CHAIRMAN —There being two amendments pending, the amendment is not now in order. Mr. A. J. PARKER-Then I suggest it be accepted by the gentleman from Erie [Mr. Masten]. Mr. MASTEN -If I have the power, I will accept it. Mr. A. J. PARKER -And that he also substitute the word "shall" in the first line, for the word "may" so as to make it imperative upon the Legislature to pass such laws. Mr. MASTEN - I will accept the suggestion. Mr. PAIGE-I have come to the conclusion, sir, that there are but two remedies for bribery and corruption at the elections that can be effective. One is to provide in the Constitution that the sale of and trafficking in votes be a ground of challenge at the election, and the other is, that the successful candidate, after election, take and subscribe an oath that he has not used money for the purchase of votes, or for any other purpose of promoting his election. The gentleman behind me referred to a resolution offered by me and referred to the Committee on Suffrage, as being too sweeping in its character. I have prepared an amendment that I intend to offer before this article is disposed of, excepting from the oath such expenses as are now authorized by law for defraying the expenses of printing tickets, etc., but requiring the candidate to specity the several sums of money so expended, the purposes for which it was expended, and the names of the persons to whom paid. Now, sir, if we incorporate these two provisions in the Constitution I think we shall remedy, or at least diminish, the cry. ing evil of corruption at our elections. This amendment by the gentleman from Erie [Mr. Masten], as I understand it, is not incompatible with either of the provisions to which I have referred. lHe aims at authorizing the Legislature to enact laws excluding from the right of suffrage those who have been convicted of bribery. This section authorizing the Legislature to pass laws, refers to a disfranchisement, to an exclusion from the right to vote at all elections, until this punishment is remitted, whereas the provision' in the section reported by the committee, making the purchase and sale of votes a ground of challenge, only applies to the pending election; therefore, sir, the proposition of the gentleman from Erie [Mr. Masten], is not, in my judgment, inconsistent with the provision in this article reported, making it the ground of a challenge. The CICAIRMAN - The Chair would inform the gentleman from Schenectady [Mr. Paige], that the proposition of the gentleman from Erie [Mr. Masten]. strikes out the proposition f the gentl. man frum Ontari ) [Mr. Lapham]. Mr. ANDREWS- I agree with the gentleman from De: L are [r. r that the better cours t o pursue with respect to the subject-matter under consideration, is to give sufficient authority to the Legislature to legislate on the subject; than it is to attempt to define in the Constitution itself, the causes and the circumstances which shall exclude a voter from the right to vote, and I, therefore, prefer substantially the second section as contained in the amendment of the gentleman from Cayuga [Mr. C. C. Dwight], to the one contained in the report of the Committee on Suffrage. I take it, sir, that there is no division of opinion in this committee as to the propriety of providing in some way, if possible to protect the purity of elections. And, sir, I think that it will be better attained by prescribing the boundaries of the power of the Legislature in the Constitution itself over this subject, leaving it to the Legislature from time to time to adjust legislation according to the necessities or exigencies which may arise, than in any other way. But, sir, it occurs to me that the amendment now pending, proposed by the gentleman from Erie [Mr. Masten], if I properly understand it, is too broad in its scope and application, because, as I understand it, it excludes from the right of voting all persons who have contributed in any way to secure the success of a particular candidate or a particular party. I think, sir, that that amendment would at least create doubt, whether a great many contributions for the general purpose of affecting the result of an election, and which are proper in themselves, would not be prohibited. It strikes me, sir, that the original resolution substantially covers what will be required in the case, and while I would not prohibit contributions having a tendency to disseminate in a proper way information among the electors, and thereby indirectly promote the success of a particular party, I would point legislation to the particular evil to be reached, to wit: The effort, by the use of money, to reach and control the individual voter at the time of giving his vote; and it seems to me, therefore, that while in favor, Ps I am, of the general principle on which the amendment of the gentleman from Erie [Mr. Masten] is placed, that it is better to reject that, in the form in which it is presented, for the purpose of recurring to and reaching the provision already pending before the committee upon the amendment of the gentleman from Cayuga [Mr. C. C. Dwight]. Mr. KERNAN -I desire, before this question is passed upon, to express my very strong conviction that it will not be best nor wisest to remit this matter entirely to the Legislature. I think that, at least, we should have in the Constitution a provision that it shall be a cause of challenge of the elector that he has paid or promised to pa received or expects to receive money, or othr valuable consideration to influence votes,: aa if that challenge is not withdrawn he shall bet required before he votes to purge himself by.: h from the charge. I would have the provision substantially as in the amendment, or in the:report of the committee, that he may be challen for that cause, and required to take his oath bt he votes, and if he do take the oatlhdenyig cause of challenge that then le be allowed l vt. Se ar as punisghim otherwise than bi preet 504 ing him from voting at that election, this may be very ell left to the Legislature; but to the extent of making this a ground of challenge, I think our experience is in favor of doing so. It is very easy to make the challenge; it is very easy, if the elector be honest, that he shall purge himself and vote; and I think we will find that such a provision in the Constitution will be very efficacious in preventing the evil complailed of. When the elector can be challenged and required to take an oath at the polls, it will have a great deal more effect in preventing the corruption of which all complain than any penal system of laws which the Legislature may enact to punish him afterward. I therefore hope that the Convention will retain in some form that test of the purity of the elector, and then anything else that is desired in reference to punishing him otherwise, when he is convicted, may be very well left to the Legislature. I think with that provision, and with the other provision which I know several gentlemen design to introduce at the proper time, by which the person elected to office shall be required to take an oath to the effect that he has not used money improperly, will effect more reform than any system of legislation for punishing otherwise, however stringent it may be. And moreover, sir, I fear if we do not put this test in the Constitution, there will be a good deal of difficulty in getting laws enacted which shall effect the purpose which this will effect. Mr. GRAVES-I move the committee do now rise, report progress and ask leave to sit again. The question was put on the motion of Mr. Graves, and was declared carried. Thereupon the Committee rose and the President resumed the Chair in Convention. Mr. ALVORD, from the Committee of the Whole, reported that the Committee had had under consideration the report of the Committee on the Right of Suffrage and the Qualifications to Hold Office, had made some progress therein, but not having gone through therewith, had directed their Chairman to report that fact to the Convention, and ask leave to sit again. The question was then put upon granting leave and it was declared carried. Mr. BELL-I move that we take a recess until four o'clock, ITe question was then put upon the motion of Mr. Bell and it was declared carried. So the Convention took a recess until four o'clock. AFTERNOON SESSION. The Convention re-assembled at four o'clock, and again resolved itself into a Committee of the Whole, on the report of the Committee on the Right of Suffrage and the Qualifications to Hold OQtce, Mr. ALVORD, of Onondaga, in the chair. The Chairman announced the pending question to - on the amendment proposed by Mr. Masten to the amendment offred by Mr. C. C. Dwight.:Mr CONGER- - I deem it due to the committee to that the subjet now before it of putti a uleient check upon bribery at elections, isone which has heretofore occupied the atten. that of 0 and action in ddelte form by the representatives of the people. It has long heretofore been admitted that the provisions of the Constitution of 1846 were not sufficient to cover the desired result. So, Mr. Chairman, when in the Legislature of 1853, in which I had the honor to have a seat, this subject was presented in view of the gross corruptions which had been practiced prior to that time, although they were not as great or as numerous as those which have since shocked the public sentiment, the Legislature, with great unanimity, passed a series of provisions amending the Constitution, to which you will permit me to draw your attention. Now, in view of what has been said, (and I wish to speak with no unnecessary reference to party distinctions) it ought to be remembered that the Legislature of 1853 had the reputation of being entirely a democratic body; and I advert to the fact for this purpose, to show why it was, and in what way the propositions matured in 1853 were lost, for as you are aware the Constitution required that they should be submitted to the Legislature at the next ensuing election of Sena. tors. In pursuance of that requirement of the Constitution the amendments proposed by the Legislature of 1853 were sent down to the Legislature of 1854 of which it may be said that it was not only largely republican, but that they entirely ignored the attempt made by the democratic Legislature of 1853 to check the evil. Seeing what has occurred since, I deem it right and proper that the majority of this body should undertake to reform an evil which has grown to such great magnitude under their auspices. There is a great disposition here, Mr. Chairman, to allude to corruption in the body of the people. I think, with greater propriety, we might refer to the corruption which now exists in high positions This morning, when this subject was under discussion, some allusion might have been made to the fact that a republican member from this State, of the House of Representatives had been ejected by Congress in view of the bribery practiced by him as a representative of the people. I do not wish to draw too strongly upon your historical recollections to ask if it was not notorious that no little part of the Washington schemes which culminated in his Congressional eviction were connected with the Albany scheme by which large sums of money or a large patronage was to be secured for his associates by canal contracts under the fraudulent lettings of 1851. But when we come to the facts as they are at the present day, and amid other like announcements find the Secretary of the Treasury complains that his officials, all loyal men, are so corrupt that it is impossible for him properly to collect the revenue, I submit we should not undertake here in our place to stigmatize the body of the people. If we make any inquisition, let us find out at whose door the fault lies. Who are the men that are guilty of these great crimes of perverting the franchise and attempting to corrupt the people. We had an admission here this morning by my honorable friend on my right, which would lead us to suppose that all these high crimes were confined to a certain classoutside of that known as the Puritan. I 505 donot desire to speak of that class of citizens in this men to vote in a particular way, but you must country with disrespect; but I will say this, that also make it a crime to deter a man from voting the Puritan character is a many-sided crystal, or induce him to withhold his vote. Now, then, and on some sides shows a deeply discolored face. further on, the Legislature of 1853 proposed that I need not dwell upon the earlier history of this laws should be passed for determiniginn a sumcountry when the Puritan shook hands with Geor- mary manner at the polls, all questions affecting gia and secured for us the slave trade, nor the the right of any person to vote thereat, so that period when the Puritan engaged in the manufac- section two as amended is very much in the spirit ture of New England rum to debauch the country. of the amendment proposed by the honorable It is right that repentance should begin at home. It gentleman from Erie [Mr. Masten]. But it is far is right that the Puritan should undertake an anti- more comprehensive, and it carries throughout slavery crusade in his own State, and a Maine Law this idea, that you have not only to provide against movement there. I do not object to that. But I a positive corrupt voting, but from deterring, do hope that you will remember, that the institu- or hindering, or preventing men from going to tions of the State of New York were founded or inducing them to stay away from the and moulded by men of Holland birth, by men polls. And there is another class of cases which not ashamed in that day to be known either as Irish- they thought a matter of some consequence, the men or of Scotch or Cavalier descent. It is unfair in reasons for which I need not enlarge upon, as this tribunal of the people to speak of the Puritan probably some gentleman upon this floor will sugancestry as if that was the only source from which gest more fully the grounds of such propriety, all purity could descend. It is very much like that was preventing corruptionists from holding the pious nonchalance of Holy Willie, in Burns' any office voted for at such election.. I think, Mr. prayer, when it is claimed that the Puritan in the Chairman, that when we have got fairly into a State of New York is position where this amendment might be offered, "A burning and a shining light the reasonable and the right-minded men of this In a' this place." Convention will 9ot refuse their approbation. Now, as I said before, I do not object to any gentle- But as I did not get an affirmative answer to the man in this Convention of the people undertaking question I proposed this morning, I desire now to to mature a wise system for the correction of these discuss a part of the proposition of the gentleman or other public mischiefs. If I have studied any from Schenectady [Mr. Landon]. Now, see what of the facts in the history of this State since 1851 he desires. He wishes to deprive a man of the correctly, the evil of bribery in the planning right of suffrage who not only receives but exand prosecution of political campaigns has grown pects to receive some consideration. Very well; up under the auspices of the dominant party, and but, if you remember, he couples with that the I believe the credit and the duty falls to them of right of challenge at the polls, so that it would undertaking to perfect a proper and suitable be competent for the dominant party in the exersystem for correcting the evil which they them- cise of this power to require of every person selves inaugurated. But I protest against abus- who presented himself after the hour when all ing the body of the people in this hall of their their party had cast their votes to submit to the representatives, as if all the people were corrupt, test of this oath, and to swear that he had not or as if the methods of corruption were to be sin- only not received but that he did not expect to gled or parceled out by localities. In the name receive anything of whatever kind as the result of the people of the county which I represent, I of his action. I wish to know what is the effect of enter my entire, candid and serious remon- asking a man at the polls to swear that he does strance. But to go back to what I have mostly not expect to receive any possible returnf in conin hand. Sir, if gentlemen are disposed to be- sequence of a vote he gives. For. if I do not lieve that the Legislature of 1853 had considered mistake the purport of this strict test-oath which well their remedial propositions, if they are wil- you are now seeking to carry into effect, is to ling to imagine that there were matured after a long negative all possible expectation of receiving any and protracted discussion, in which the minds of possibly valuable consideration by reason of his the most prominent jurists in that body were en- vote. gaged, they may possibly derive some benefit Mr. M. I. TOWNSEND — Will the gentleman from a brief statement of the result of their la- from Rockland [Mr. Conger] allow me to sugbors. In the first place, in the amendments as gest what I suppose is the meaning of it? perfected by them, they desired to interpose in Mr. CONGER-I will. the second section of article 2, immediately after Mr. TOWNSEND-This, I understand, is often the word " election "these words: " or who shall done at elections; indeed I have seen it done. A pay, give or receive, or promise to pay or give man says " Here is five dollars; you go and vote any money or other property or valuable consid- this ticket and you shall have this money." eration, with intent to influence any elector in Mr. CONGER-The remedy as provided by we giving his vote, or to deter any elector from Legislature of 1853 is amply sufficient if you chalvoting." We considered that the evil then lenge the vote of a man who agrees directly or was not simply the offer of money to. induce indirectly to receive. To require of a ma ho a man to vote in a certain direction, but that is about to vote to swear that he does not expet there was a great influence exerted to deter menin any way to receive any benefit covers t from the polls, or to induce them to withhold much ground. If you limit it to his expecting to their votes, and when the time comes, I shall ask receive money at any. time after the el n you to insert that clause in this article, so thatshal not interpose any objection. But when you ou will not only make it a crime to influence couple wih it not only money mebut valuable o 64 506 uir s, w I wa. tol know hat gentlnian in *ti.CoQnvintiQ who mightbe.a candidate for 'acold:take the,oa; because every one kiow fhlat as the result of an Oelection may- be.4etermn'ed in:is locality,.he is more likely to reeive a sufficient yote,for some office for ich he mayi be aniexpeetant or: candidate. You mtake this thingtoo stringent on the general ground of an expectation, and tle only, practical effect, I think, is that you will put it in the power of individual challengers at a poll to obstruct an eletion, and wihen sundown is announced there may be thousands outside who have not had permission to vote, That occurred last winter in the city of New ork; it is likely to occur there time and again. It might occur in any rural district where the majority, who sought to compass a majority vote, were resolute and persistent in this exercise of the right of challenge; for it is not merely the right of challenge but it is the right to require a man. to take an oath, and that oath, according to.your law, must be reduced to writing. According to any. estimate that can. be made, I think these oaths would, take, at; the least calculation, three minutes apiece. I ask you, gentlemen, to look at this thing calmly and:carefully. It is sufficient in my judgment if you make a man swear that he has not agreed directly or indirectly to receive, but if you want to prevent the possibility of his receiving anything you can easily cover a promise to him to be available at a future day. You slhould devise some form of speech which will correspond with that form by which ou attempt to shut off the man who offers to pay. The man who pays and promises to pay is more culpable than the man who receives, and when you go to him in all the forms that you have prescribed, either paying or offering to pay, promising to pay or giving money, and follow it all through the verbiage which you have got in this amendment which I need not now spec. ify you merely make that man swear that he has nt paid or offered to pay, and you make the other man swear that he has not received nor has any expectation in general of receiving. I submit to th gentleman that the expectation of receiving is ot a correlative of the offer to pay,it is of far more geeral force, and it has a more surprising effect.,:;. LANDON- Will the gentleman from ockla4 [Mrt. Conger] allow me to ask him a question? Mr CONG. R-R Certainly. Mr, LANDON- If that was struck out how would you meet the case where a man. votes today and expects to receive that money tomorrow I whih he promises to pay. 0Mr.Q:O Q -I admit ihe case ought to be provide for. But when you go on further and i make man swear that hedoes not; expect to receive any aoney o ther. valuable.consideration, do you not iclude.those' who.are expect- I antlof ltfice in e the geneal eepi phrase of I a ivaluab1leconsideration?".Iides'i3re the gentle.- i en t perfect ther scheme.- I do noQt interpose E with:avi:ew emrras th efforts Hav < ig r the proposition of, 185 it is too 1 la re, if I wished, at'thisday to retract, and p. ^rf tly willi.g to; take the amend-, i 0-i t,rop ctlyd itn NW pQr a i p it in:the new. Constitution. -Iam perfectly willing to. go still furthers and make a provision more stringent. 'But I do ask gentlemen to look very carefully at swhat they are about, lest in any manner they go too far in the exaction of an oath upon a phrase which is very comprehensive, and carries with it more, in; the connection in which it is placed, than I; think gentlemen dream of. Mr. BICKFORD - Will the gentleman allow me to ask him a question? Is not the provision you are considering necessary to 'prevent a state of things like these? The twenty minutes having expired the gavel fell.. Mnr HATCH - Mr. Chairman, when this House generally goes into the Committee of the Whole, for the last two weeks, and the negro is up, as usual, I generally pass out; but I came in after the Committee of the Whole had been occupied sometime, to-day, and very much to my surprise, I have found another subject under consideration in the Committee of the Whole -bribery and corruption. I certainly congratulate the Convention on the change. I might say, sir, that for one I have had all the acquaintance I desire with the negro in politics. I don't want to be any further enlightened as to his capacity or incapacity, physically or intellectually. He has generally kept democrats out of public life for the last ten years [laughter], and I never could find any political capital in the negro, and I do not believe the democratic party will ever find any capital in the negro. And I am surprised, sir, too, when I find some of my democratic friends here still determined to try and see whether something could not be made out of the colored gentleman. Like a certain class of very desperate people, constantly engaged in a losing game, they still are determined to have another fight with that black tiger. [Laughter.] Sir, if I understand the amendment of the gentleman from Erie [Mr. Masten] the practical effect of the adoption of that amendment would be to exclude from the Constitution any provision against bribery and corruption. If I am mistaken about it, I hope I will be corrected. Now, sir, if this Convention proposes to do anything'that is useful to the people, I believe any measure which they should inaugurate should be adopted in the Constitution. If the people had anything in view in calling this Convention, it was to take power out of the Legislature of the State of New York. I will not go into the reasons fully now why this should be done. *Any man, if. he does not know them, I ask him to go back to the journals of the Legislature of last year, and read from the journals the acts of the Legislature which they adopted, and abov'e al to read those acts proposed which were beneieial to the people which they did not adopt. Those they iid not adopt, on examination, would be found to belong. to that class of measures, to use the comnon parlance of the lobby, which had no money in them.,I ask them to read those; I could give ome reital of them, for I had occasionto examine ne to-day which, I should be very glad to bring before the. Convention In confirmation -of: my news, and I shall, before the Convention closes tsliabora, Sirr thiS proposition to exclude fr'm eo COnstitution any provision against $ briberyt *f.5O7 and corruption, and leaving it to the Legislature, it is preposterous in my estimation, and I am surprised that gentlemen will urge any such proposition asthis, to leave to the Legislature the question of bribery and corruption. What have you heard here during these debates? Why, sir, it has been heard, and it is believed, and if it is not believed by the members of this Convention, it is believed by all the people, that, I will not say the majority of the Legislature is elected through bribery and corruption, but a large portion of its members are elected through this means. What do you propose to do? To leave to this very nice body so elected, and to be repaid through legislative corruption to pass laws against bribery and corruption-that is the proposition. That is the practical effect of it as I understand it. Why, sir, to leave to the Legislature the power to pass laws against bribery and corruption what is it? I do not mean any disrespect to many honorable members of the Legislature, but it would be setting a thief to catch a thief. Worse than that, sir, it would be empowering a thief to sit in judgment, and say how much punishment should be administered to a thief. That is the practical operation of* that proposition as I understand it. Now, sir, the gentleman from Schenectady [Mr. Paige] presented a proposition here the other day; one of the most practical remedies against a particular kind of bribery and corruption. It is not entirely fresh in my recollection, but his proposition as I remember it, was that it should be part of the oath of a public officer, a member of Assembly, or a member of any public body,to swear that when he was elected he did not pay and useoany money for his selection. That is the proposition, as I understand it in that of the gentleman. If I am wrong, I ask the gentleman from Schenectady [Mr. Paige] to correct me. Sir, there is something, there is good sense in that, there is the good sense of the jurist and patriot in that, in my humble opinion. Why, sir, if we have degenerated to this; if we have become so totally depraved that there is a person that will walk that aisle, and place his hand upon the Bible there and take the oath of office as a member of the Legislature and swear that he has paid no,money when he has paid money; why, sir, I repeat, if we have become so totally depraved as that, there is no use of any more Constitutions or laws. The only punishment that can be inflicted upon such a person is a punishment beyond this world. If I should believe all the charges members of this Convention have made against the last Legislature-I must confess that I had lived long enough to change mr mind upon the doctrine of total depravity. I should be glad to see some such provision as proposed by the gentleman from Schenectady adopted into the Constitution, and not leave the purification of the elective franchise to the easy virtue of modem Legislatures. Mr. BECKWITH —I wish to inquire whether, if the proposition of the gentleman from Erie [Mr. Masten] prevails, it takes the place of the roposition of the gentleman from Schenectady [ir. Paige],: Te he CHAIRMA -The Chair understands hat it is offered as a substitute. Mr. BECKWITH -I am in favor virtually df both propositions. I believe it wise, on our part, to introduce into this Constitution a provision for the punishment of bribery, distinct and emphatic; one that wo'ld be clear to the understanding of every individual; and, while I do that, I am also in favor of making it the duty of the Legislature to provide by law to carry out that object and to make such provision as would render the full accomplishment of the object to be desired. The evil of which we complain is not to be reached by that single provision which the gentleman from Schenectady would have introduced, for, if I am correctly informed, the evil lies beyond it. One of the greatest evils is this.You and I very well know, Mr. Chairman, that in many localities in this State the democratic party is largely in the majority, and in other localities the republican party is also largely in the majority. We know very well that certain individuals in these localities control these caucuses. They are your noisy, boisterous, bar-room politicians that control the nominations made at these caucuses; and we know that in some of these localities a nomination is an election, and if I am correctly informed, there are in certain localities in this State persons who take it upon themselves to say to the friends of certain candidates, "if your friend wants to be nominated -the nomination being an election-give us one thousand dollars, give us two thousand dollars, give us three thousand dollars, or some other sum, and we will secure his nomination." And to the friends of other candidates for nomination they will say the same, and they will finally get up a strife and a bid, and I have been informed (I won't say I have been correctly informed) that even the office of a judge has been tendered to men if they or their friends would secure to those men who control these nominations four thousand dollars, and that the friends of others have stepped in and said "We will give you five thousand dollars," and they have thereby secured their nomination and their election. The reason why I am in favor of both propositions is this, that by the proposition of the gentleman from Schenectady [Mr. Landon] we cannot reach this evil, but if we make it the imperative duty of the Legislature also to provide those laws which shall carry out this object and all necessary laws to prevent bribery and corruption, we may possibly reach this evil and the others. I am, therefore, in favor of both propositions, but if I can have but one, I am rather inclined to prefer the proposition of the gentleman from Erie [Mr: Masten], for, if we obtain this provision only, it will not be sufficiently stringent, and will not meet all these evils. Mr. SPE1NCER-I wish to suggest whether the great desire to impose penalties for the offense of bribery may not be sufficiently effectual to produce legislative action, from the:fact that the business of bribery in high -placeasor as compensation for perversion of official duty: i high places, may be more profitable if those who seek places.in the Legislature of the State e escape th eee expense which grows of teprae tioe at elections. It has resulted i the ecesit of buying votes, and they ceat get the same prie 08 iSor heir votes, when they come into the Legisla-.ture, or for the performance of their official duty when they fill any other office; if that be so, the business of filling such offices will become so much the more profitable. Mr. M. I. TOWNSEND-I ask for a division of the question between striking out and inserting. Mr. FOLGER-I rise to a point of order, that.by the rules adopted by this body, it is not permissible. Mr. MASTEN —I do not rise for debate, for I know that it is out of order, although I have very little parliamentary knowledge, but I suppose that it is still. in my power to modify my amendment. The CHAIRMAN —The Chair is of the opinion that it is. Mr. MASTEN —I desire to do so, so as to make it as agreeable as possible to the committee. I, therefore, instead of striking out the whole of this section, will move to strike out all of the section excepting that portion which was inserted by the amendment of the gentleman from Schenectady [Mr. Landon], and then to add mine at the end of the section. Mr. HATCH- I want to inquire of the gentleman [Mr. Masten] how that will then read? The SECRETARY proceeded to read the clause as proposed to be amended, as follows: No person who shall receive, expect to receive, pay, or offer or promise to pay, contribute, or offer or promise to contribute to another to be paid or used, any money, or other valuable thing, as a compensation or reward for a vote to be given at an election, shall vote at such election; and upon challenge for such cause, the person so challenged shall, before the inspectors receive his vote, swear or affirm, before such inspectors, that he has not received, does not expect to receive, has not paid, nor offered or promised to pay, contributed, nor offered or promised to conribute to others, to be paid or used, any money or other valuable thing, as a compensation or reward for a vote, to be given at such election. Laws may be passed excluding from the right of suffrage all persons who have been or may be convicted of bribery, or of any infamous crime; laws may also be passed for punishing and depriving of the right of suffrage persons who shall pay or contribute, or agree to pay or contribute, or who shall receive or agree to receive any money, property or valuable thing to promote the election of any particular candidate or ticket, or who shall make or be interested in any bet or wager dependent upon the result of any election. Mr. LAPHAM- Will the gentleman from Erie [Mr. Masten] allow me to make a further modifcation to the proposition? I desire to all the attention of the gentleman and of the committee to the language of the provision of the Revised Statutes, and the exceptions contained in the sweeping lana of the statute which is analogous to the amendmeit of the gentleman from Erie [Mr. Masten]. excepts from the operation of the he defraying of the eAxpenses of printing a: thei ation of hadbills and other papers lto any suh eleootlon,:and of conveying sick and poor or infirm electors to polls. The proposition of the gentleman from Erie [Mr. Masten] is broad enough to include all that class of cases, and for that reason I must vote against it unless it is modified. Mr. HATCH-I understand it would be in the power of the Legislature under this authority conferred upon them, to make these modifications and such others as they saw fit. Mr. LAPHAM-Not so, for the reason that the language of this provision is a constitutional direction, and 'is broad and comprehensive as I have suggested. Mr. CHESEBRO -If this is to be passed, I would like to have it corrected somewhat in its phraseology. I would therefore move to strike out from the amendment proposed by the gentleman from Erie the words "' or ticket. "' The CHAIRMAN -The Chair would inform the gentleman [Mr. Chesebro] that his motion is not in order. Mr. VERPLANCK-I should like to ask the gentleman from Erie [Mr. Masten], if the substitution of the words "or any renumeration" in place of " valuable things, " would not cover his views in connection with it? Mr. BELL -I am of the opinion that there is sufficient in these two propositions to cover the entire ground in the Committee of the Whole. The Committee of the Whole is not a very convenient place to weigh every word that should be incorporated in the fundamental law, but if it is ascertained that a proposed clause expresses the sense of the committee -that we have put in some simple, plain language, a provision that shall prevent fraud, leaving to the Legislature to pass laws sufficiently complete in detail to carry out the provision based upon it-an article can be drawn to become a part of the organic law. My advice would be to pass upon this, crude as it is now, and let it be then referred to some committee to put in shape, or some individual can take it up and put it in its proper shape before it is finally passed. I think the better way to dispose of this would be to adopt it in the Committee of the Whole, and afterward make such correction in the verbiage as may be necessary. The question was put on the amendment of Mr. Masten, and it was declared carried, on a division, by a vote of 68 to 40. Mr. CHAMPLAIN —I offer the following amendment: *Strike out section three, and insert instead thereof"SEc. 3. Laws shall be made for ascertaining at the time the citizen offers his vote at the election, the citizen who shall be entitled to the right of suffrage hereby established." Mr. FOLGER - I rise to a point of order. Have we reached section 3 yet? The CHAIRMAN -The Chair is of the opinion that we have not yet reached section 3. The Chair is of the opinion that all amendments are in order, and that this is an amendment to an amendment proposed. Mr. CHAMPLAIN - If the section to which this amendment is applied is referred to, it will be found that it.proposed to strike out thatI part of the section which authorizes the Legislature 509 to pans the registry law and amend the remaining portion of the section by confining the power of the Legislature to make all requisite proof at the time the elector offers his vote on the day of the election. Mr. FOLGER-I rise to a point of order. It was decided in the beginning that this article should be read through in gross, and that then we should take up each section of it. Section I of the report of the committee is under consideration. The amendment of the gentleman from Cayuga [Mr. C. C. Dwight], accepted by me, substitutes two sections for section 1, being sections 1 and 2. I understand the amendment of the gentleman from Allegany [Mr. Champlain], to refer to section 3 or section 2 of the original article reported by the standing committee, so that I do not think it is now in order till we have completed section 1 of the report of the standing committee. Mr. CHAMPLAIN- Mr. ChairmanMr. VEEDER - I rise to a point of order. Not that I wish to throw any embarrassment at all in the way of the gentleman from Allegany [Mr. Champlain],but this morning I inquired of the Chair whether an amendment to section 3 was then in order, and the Chair declared it was not in order as we were then considering section 1, and that no amendment to section 3 would be entertained until section 3 was reached in its order; the same state of facts exists now in the Committee of the Whole, as existed then. As I understand the business before the committee, I think after the motion made by the gentleman from Ontario IMr. Folger] that we should proceed to consider the report of the committee by sections, that the only way in which this can now be reached is by reconsidering that resolution of the committee and moving to consider the report as a whole. Then amendments generally would be in order; but as it stands now, I submit, and as the Chair has stated, those amendments only are in order which simply pertain to the order of business before the committee, to wit, the first section of the report of the Committee on the Right of Suffrage. Mr. KERNAN-I rise to a point of order. The point of order is this, that the Chair has ruled that the amendment of the gentleman from Allegany [Mr. Champlain] is in order, and there has been no appeal The CHAIRMAN - The Chair will state in a few brief words the situation of this matter. The gentleman from Allegany [Mr. Champlain] upon the incoming of the report of the committee last evening, as he had a right to do, moved that the report of the committee be sent back to the original committee with instructions to make the amendment now proposed by him in his place. For the purpose of facilitating the business of the committee, and at the suggestion of gentlemen of high position in the Convention, he reluctantly agreedto withdraw that proposition in order to enabe him to speak for twenty minutes, And it was understood that he should have an opportunity to speak before half-past 7 o'clock this eveng, and uder these circumstances the Chair permitS the gontleian 'from Allegany:[Mr C~a~ lap._',,; - Mr. FOLGER-If that was the understanding, I withdraw my point of order. As a matter of courtesy I have no objection. Mr. CHAMPLAIN-I would have this provision of the Constitution declare the right of suffrage, so plain, simple and perspicuous, that, the citizen when he reads it can see embodied there all the qualifications of an elector; I would leave no power beyond the mere regulation of the elec-: tions on election day in the Legislature; I would not authorize that body to impose any conditions or restrictions upon the exercise of this right, after it is prescribed in the organic law. It is a right that ought not to rest in part in the Constitution, and in part in laws to be passed by legislative authority; I would not send the citizen to grope through session laws and their amendments to find out the steps necessary to the enjoyment of the elective franchise, but I would have him take in his hand the Constitution prescribing his qualifications and armed with that, find the avenues that lead to the ballot box, free and unobstructed, and not blocked up by legislative enactments. This report uoon this subject declares: "Your committee would urge that this precious right, so fundamental to all others, be carefully shielded from corruption, and that the main safeguards against its abuse should not be left to unstable and fluctuating statutes, but should be firmly imbedded in the Constitution." It is surprising that after using such language the committee, in the same report, should not only permit the Legislature to exercise this extraordinary power over "this precious right," but that they should make their command imperative that it should be so exercised. It is more surprising still that this language should be used to justify the very thing that the spirit of the language so strongly deprecates. We have a right to consider the propriety of this section in view of the registry law we now have, modified only to uniformity, although the kind of law is not specified. We know what partisan legislation has done, and in obedience to this command it may do much worse. It is fair to assume it will not be better, and in view of existing enactments we know substantially what is intended. One very obnoxious feature is firmly imbedded in this section-that every elector not registered six days before election loses absolutely his vote. We have a right to assume that the Legislature, quickened by this imperative command, can construct just such provisions as partisan excitement and prejudice may dictate, and as are usually contained in "unstable and fluctuating statutes." It was twelve years after the existing Constitution rook effect before the registry law was passed. It has been twice or three times amended, It was; passed under a provision of the Constitutio which declared that "laws shall be made fr ascertaining by proper proof the citizewns 0, shall be entitled to the right of suffrage here y established." This provision is contaipQed 4in th section reported, and my amendment, as befor stated, confies itseffect tothe time when h,: elector offers his vote on election day. The, e: tion, as inrporated in the existing Coastiuti many Of the ablest men in te ~a ste have. say, peoe4 "ozly cpn~e plated lawsa r guting *:l 510 election on election day, and as not authorizing any previous steps, as required by the registry law. This view is strengthened by the fact that the legistature of 1847, at the extra session, called to make the laws necessary to put the new onatitution into full operation, confined their action on the subject to the enacting of laws for regulating-the election on election day, thereby assuming that only such legislation was authorized. There is a strong belief pervading the public mind that when this power was asserted and used. it was so used for partisan purposes: that this registry law was a mere contrivance intended to strike down the conservative majorities in the cities. I would not leave a power in the legislature whose use would be open to such imputation or- engender such prejudices. I would place the right of suffrage where the storms of party passion and party prejudice, if they beat upon it, would beat upon it in vain. They could not subvert it, for it would be firmly "imbedded in the Constitution." I believe a registry law to impose a useless and onerous burden upon the voters. The present law is oppressive upon the laboring and industrial classes, and is unpopular and odious with the people. The main reason for it, in the report, is that it prevents fraud. If it did it would be unjust to impose such a burden upon all to prevent fraud in a few. It is believed to promote fraud under the lull m the public mind and the feeling of security it engenders, it is believed the door is opened wide for the most glaring frauds upon the elective franchise. The minority report well says: The "pipe laying" conspiracies against the purity of elections in our large cities were perpetrated under registry laws. 1 have looked through the documents laid upon our desks to ascertain the expense of an annual election. I have not been able to obtain the information, but certain it is that it must double or treble that expense, for with the published instructions and blanks issued, and the services of the same board of officers who preside at elections, the same length of time, the expense to be paid by the tax payers, must be doubled if the board set one day, and trebled if they serve three. The existing law gives, in all respects, the ame compensation as at elections, and authorizes three rfour days services, besides blanks, books and instructions, 'thereby trebling at least the expense of the annual election. This is visited upon the ta payers generally. Again, it imposes an onerus and unnecessary condition and burden upon the elector; a burden, sir, that falls with a heavy hand upon the poor laborer and mechanic, to whom the loss o one or two days' wages is a loss they heavily feel. The man of wealth and lemiure can take his gold headed cane and walk to tle place of registry or roll in his cushioned carridge on one or more days, if necessary, and not feel it as a burden Indeed, his very prominence asa citizen places him on. But go the field of the lhuba dm orn to t ort t wrkshop of the mewhose very obscurity keeps him oft; and rdeiaud that he shall lose one or two days of his valuable time, and you take by't me' of this exaetin e bread iut of the uths f hhil n ThI s burden falls With a rhig wigt u the Wab rig poor, with whom the loss of a day's labor deranges their calculations, and pinches them with actual want. Sir, a law that should impose a tax of two dollars upon each elector, as a condition of his right to vote, would be met with the:corn of the public. How does this differ in effect from such an imposition? You punish men for operating upon the mind and perverting the honest will of the voter by bribr, or menace. By the restrictions and burdens of such a law, as is contemplated, you operate ili many cases upon the mind of the poor voter and' keep him from the polls. The government will do what it denounces as criminal in others. It will throw a counter motive into the mind of the elector which will induce him to withhold his vote rather than to be to the trouble to obtain it. The great and inestimable right of suffrage is so lumbered up with restrictions that it is not worth having. Under the best devised registry laws many must lose their votes by accidental inability to comply with its provisions. Here is an unalterable constitutional requirement disfranchising all who by any accident are prevented from registering six days before the election. The report of the learned chairman, [Mr. Greeley] justifies this provision upon the same grounds that recording of deeds is provided for. He says, " To maintain that registration while it does afford protection to the titles whereby we hold our lands will give none to our right of suffrage is to defy reason and insult our common sense." Sir, I fail to see the slightest analogy between the two provisions. The recording acts are founded on principles highly beneficial and remedial to the owners of titles. They are not imposed as burdens. They are intended to protect the individual from fraud and to place the deed in a safe depository for his benefit, and place the evidence of title upon an imperishable record. They are not compulsory; but the citizen may avail himself of them or not as he elects. Suppose you had a provision of your Constitution reported here that as a condition to the right to hold property the citizen should be compelled to go annually to the county clerk's office and register his name. Would not such a law be regarded as an unjust and odious restriction upon the great fundamental right to hold property? And here lies the distinction. That a registry law for an election must impose the great burden of personal attendance upon the elector, and the taking of all the oaths, if challenged, which may be required on election day. The elector must first attend and offer his name, and the same process is required to get that entered as is necessary to get in his vote. He must attend until he is able to accomplish it, if it take one, two or threei days, and when he offers his vote the same oaths are necessary. If you have a registry law at all, for I presume no one would contend it would be saf to intrust this power entirely to the officers, it operates as a restriction upon a right, and involves a loss of valuable time. Is it wise to impose it upon all because you fear a fraud in a few? It is useless, because upon challenge when the vote is offered all the oaths must be taken, n, ~. I insit t or notwithstandiig the registry I insist that for the ere purpose of preventing imaged ron in on, the hand of indiscriminate engea 51 should not lump together all the innocent and te when one Augustus Csor was Emperor of Bomri guilty by such an imposition. Our census laws, at a period: wlen she:had attained? to imperla State and national assessment laws, State and na- power, when the flags of many nations:were tioeal laws for the registry of births, deaths and waving upon her walls,ihe h ad amnexedthe land marriages, are all framed unon the principle I am of Judea to his dominions, and that near thecdlose advocating, and in opposition to the spirit of the of Herod's reign as governor of those provinces, provision under consideration. The wisdom of he gave cause of ofiense to his imperial master. the law makers has placed the decade of the cen- That in order to'humble Herod and his peopl sus ten years apart, and have so carefully and the more completely to subject them to hiS arranged it that it involves no burden upon dominion, he issued a decree commanding all tir the people; officers go about and take the people of Judea to repair to the chief city of their census, involving the loss of only a few mo- tribe and "register." History further tells tha;w ments time to the citizen to answer it was in obedielco to this harsh and hulmiliatquestions and so of your assessment laws, State ing decree that Joseph with Mary journeyed''tO and national, officers go about and carefully collect Bethlehem, the city of his tribe. That because" the information. A law that should require every of the crowd of people who had congregated, person once a year, to go somewhere and register there in obodience to the same oppressive decree. his name for the pu e purpose of taxation, would not I the Ius were crowded and lie was obliged toi be sustained by the people. It would be an!seek loigings il a stable; and 'there, while shep~ onerous tax in and of itself imposed in advance Iterds watchlld their flocks by night upon the: of the general tax on property, contemplated. I plains oof Judea, that cveut occurred that changed perceive by the notes accompanying the copy of tihe etermnl destiny of lost nan, and raised in they the Constitution prepared under the supervision sky a bow of promise f'ar the redemption of a' of a committee of this body, that out of the thirty- ruined world. An anmblssador was sent to Augus-i seven States of this Union, but four or five are tus by Herod to plead for hiisi people, at d thi stated to have an election registry law, and that execution of the unjust decree was suspended.among them are Maryland, Virginia, Louisiana Iistory tells us that ten years later, under the and South Carolina, States whose systems of reign of Cyrenus, his successor, the odious decreeK civil government heretofore I had supposed would was enforced, and the people broke out in' open not meet with so ardent an admiration from the rebellion against it. And under the lead of tone learned chairman [Mr. Greeley], as his report in Judas of Galilee, the people were organized in this respect evinces-having adopted them in this forcible resistance to Romish authority. Might respect, as models. The report states: triumphed over right at first, but the war WaS' "Your committee. are confident that the expe- waged with varied success for many years, until: rience of our State, and of the civilized world ful- finally Jerusalem was demolished-razed from the: ly justifies these requirements. According to my face Of the earth as a measure of imperial vengeance' limited reading of history I cannot concur with upon the insurgents. Long before this, tyrannic this statement unless, indeed, the learned chair- rulers in Israel had ordered a numbertnog Of man referred to the southern States I have named, the people, and history tells us that a long peras that part of the civilized world, whose experi- secuted class of Christians and unhappy people ence fully justifies these requirements." were driven out among idolators and strangers,* In this country we once had a registry law di- and hung their harps upon the willows and sat rected against foreigners, requiring them upon down by the river of Babylon and mourned over landing to repair to the nearest. court of record, the lost Jerusalem, and wept; and vowed that' and register their name and age. It was found the gentle notes of their harps should never oppressive and burdensome in its operation and mingle again with the voice of the despoiler. str, tended to discourage emigration, and it being the this coerced registration has been imposed in tihe' spirit of our institutious to promote emigration, history of the civilized world by the mild frms of; this law was, in 1816 I believe, repealed. civilauthority and the harsher forms of military In the early history of England there was an act power-by the conqueror upon the conquered. It of parliament enacted for a similar purpose. It las:generally been imposed as a burden, ofln as was the spirit of the government of that country a restriction upon the exercise of some right, andj to prevent emigration, and while under the law of sometimes as a measure of deep humiliation, and nations it did not absolutely exclude, yet'it applied it has always been odious. Sir, I would not have' a stringent law to the border lines over which a " registry" system in the Constitution. A re* there was a facility for emigration, and its effect istratibn is going on now in one-third of the States was to obstruct and prevent it. Sir, these regis- of this Union, enforced in the rigorous and anti-i tration laws have figured in the history' of the American form of arbitrary and despotic' militar civilized world; upon the darkest pages of the power, under a law which, at one fell isaoophas history of religious persecution Christians have swept away the liberties of twelve mtlliboh f been cmpelled to "regiter and take out pass people. It is expelling large numbers of p is port, at a high and extraordinary tax, for the from the exercise. of the right of suffrage wio mere privilege of passing from one town to have heretofore enjoyed it under laws of thiirr A another. Th leaarned chairman [Mr. Greeley] framing, and is -ociig large numbers of orai when he penned this repor, must have forgotten add degraded persons into the Ibdy ptli a regretratio t law that, with the consequences tray t ti traditional customs: nd4 habitsif t assoated wah its enactmenti and execitioh people;,repugnant Wt tir ity, nieaiei; mairks th& br dtestd-ne of the darkest epochs. prejutr: Ieie. day:wilt o e Wh^ehalf'!tw ias gl i t Uells i Gus tth;is.will be changed, when the*Ad o ibd i512 Oongresa so repugnant to the Constitution, by which the courts, the laws, and all the safeguards of personal liberty and private right of the people iteen States of this Union are destroyed, will awaken the deepest indignation of the American people. Time is dispelling the passions that fratricidal war has engindered; a day will come as fast as its lightning flight can bring it, when public affairs will be viewed by a purer philosophy, and controled by a nobler and more exalted statesmanship; when that day shall come; when the country shall emerge from the political gloom in which it is now enshrouded, when the bleeding, dissevered and estranged fragments shall be gathered together under a restored Union and re-established Constitution -a Union restored in that spirit of public concord and brotherhood which animated our fathers from the first gun of the revolution and which sent a united and prosperous country along the pathway of national advancement. I believe that all these measures will become offensive and hateful to the American people. I believe that day is coming, because it was the great inspiration of the people in carrying on this war. It was the proclamation of the national government. The faith of the nation was plighted that the Union should be restored in that spirit. It was sounded in every bugle charge. It was thundered from the mouths of your cannon, and it was a part of that registered oath which is inscribed above your head (pointing to the words inscribed upon the wall above the president's head, " I have the most solemn oath registered in heaven, to preserve, protect and defend the government."-Lincoln,) and while the soul that took upon itself that oath, was under its solemn sanction, other words were uttered and were registered also with that oath, to which I will invite the attention of the committee, in the inaugural address of Mr. -Lincoln: "'We are not enemies but friends. We must not be enemies. Though passion may have strained, it must not break our bonds of affection. The mystic cords of memory, stretching from every battle-feld and patriot grave to every living heart and hearthstone all over this broad land, will yet swell th chorus of the Union, when again touched; as surely they will be, by the better angels of our nature." That chorus is already rising Its voice has been heard in Connecticut; it has been loudly echoed from that State beneath whose soil repose the ashes of Henry Clay. Its murmerings are heard on the distant shores of the Pacific. It will leap the Rocky Mountains and will sweep the prairies of the West; it will gather momentum und power in the Central States, and only break upon e granite hills of New England, as "rom eak to peak the rattling crap among Le aps thi live thunder, Not from one lone cloud, It eery menurtatn now hath found a tongue, And Jaa aswers through hti misty shroud, ck to the oyous Alps that call to her aloud'" W h that day shall come, tae resuent wave of publ sentime, rig to one: overwhelming and igty round swell f:or. Uin d: O Conti-, $0il wsweep:away th*ese eactments, and ad te:0e A ]nam e of.g. l titn hatefl to tl~4marif~ p.,..............d4.fn pESD.....0. Mr. GREELEY-I shall say but very few words as to this provision with regard to a registry of voters. The gentleman from Allegany [Mr. Cham. plain] well said that the times are not propitious for the success of such measures as he judges expedient, especially this one. I postpone, then. to the time when it shall be necessary, the argument that might be made in favor of a registry law. I will only say this on that point: that all the New England States have about the same as registry laws. Every one, so far as I know, has its check-list, which is made up some days before each election, and no man can vote whose name is not on the check-list. Some States, as Massachusetts, require and impose a poll-tax, to be paid some time before election. Pennsylvania also imposes a poll-tax, which amounts to a registry. A good many of the States have some sort of a property qualification, which answers to a registry. There are few States wherein universal suffrage prevails which have no other safeguard against fraudulent voting than the word of the voter, and these grow fewer every year. A. State which accords the right of suffrage to whomsoever shall choose to claim it, I think, never has endured in the whole history of the civilized world. What we ask is, that the right of each man entitled to vote shall be established calmly, deliberately, dispassionately, judicially, at some time apart from the heat and struggle of an election. When the gentleman says that each year the voter must appear before the registers and put his name on the registry, the answer is that the fact is otherwise, except in certain great cities where every man lives within five minutes' walk of the polls. It has never been required that a voter in the rural districts should put his name on the registry, and repeat that process from year to year. the registers, when they make up the list, conie to the name of John Jones: "Does anybody know him?" "Yes; he lives down by Sykes's mill;" and John Jones' name is kept on the list until lie moves away or dies; then it is erased. There is no such thing as calling the husbandman away from his farm to be registered annually, since re-registration has been required. I should be perfectly willing to strike out the words, "And the Legislature shall provide that" as I consider them superfluous; but to assent to the gentleman's proposition is to agree that we shall have no registry at all. Of that enormous mass of population in New York city and Brooklyn, not one voter in ten is known at the polls. I voted in New York nearly or quite twenty years, and I did not pretend to know one man in ten whom I met at the polls of my district, and could not tell whether they did or did not live in that district, nor where they lived. The practical effect was, that almbot any man came up and voted who claimed the right. Mr. Horace F. Clark told me that when he ran for Congress in 1856, as a democratic candidate, he had votes in the Twelfth ward (Harlem), in the upper part of the city, accompanied by tickets for eharter officers in the First ward, and that he was satisfied that he voters had eommeneed at th Battery and voted right alongl p to High Bridge. (Laughter]. It s notorious aong managing; politcians in the mity tt there i o day votig oveand over 513 and over again, by men called " repeaters"-men who are trained to vote at as many polls as they can. It is an established institution, and not entirely abolished by the registry, any more than the forgery of a man's title is always stopped by tile registration of deeds. But it is an enormous check on the facility for voting unlawfully, and I have no doubt that the registry law diminishes illegal voting in the city of New York at least seven-eighths. Mr. HITCHMAN-How does the gentleman provide that persons who have attained their majority within six days before the election, shall vote? They will have no opportunity to register. Mr. GREELEY-Any registering board will put on the list every man who will be entitled to vote on the day of the election at hand. For instance, a man states to the registrars that he has only been naturalized five days; but they know that the date of his naturalization is ten days prior to the pending election, and that he will then have a right to vote; and no inspector would refuse to register; and in case of a young man'who shall appear before the inspectors and swear that he will be twenty-one years of age before the election, no officer that I ever heard of. would refuse to put his name on the list. Mr. BICKFORD-He is obliged to. Mr. GREELEY-Allow me now a few words in regard to other objections to the Committee's report. Two weeks have passed, during which time I have sat silent and heard nearly a hundred speeches against it. Our proposition is the simplest, clearest and most explicit, that was ever submitted as the basis of suffrage in this State. The suffrage article in our present Constitution prescribes four different terms or periods of time: One year in the State; four months in the county; thirty days in the district; and ten days a citizen. We propose to sweep away these four terms and replace them by two: viz.: One year's residence in the State, and thirty days' citizenship and residence in the election district where he offers his vote. These are the only two conditions as to residence, and every one can understand them. Under the present plan, if a man comes to vote, we ask him "How long have you lived here?" "Two days," "You can't vote." "Yes, I can vote for Senator, because I have lived four months in the senate district, and I can vote for Governor, and for Congressman, though not for Assemblyman." How do the inspectors know for what officers he will vote? What right have they to look inside of his ballots to see what candidates are in them? Sir, the plan is all wrong. It is opefiing the way to fraud to have any such condition of' suffrage, and therefore we ought to abolish it. We ought to have a simpler system. The gentleman from New YorkMr. VEEDER -Will the gentleman [Mr. Greeley] allow me to ask him a question? Mr. GREELEY -As I have only twenty minutes, I prefer not to be interrupted. The gentleman from New York on my left [Mr. Gross] says that, if you exact a thirty days' naturalization before voting, all the adopted citizens will vote against our Constitution. I hope not. They did not vote against the Constitution of 1846, which 65 originated a clause requiring a ten days' naturalization, and that involved exactly the same principle; and it cut off some men from the right to vote at the next election who would otherwise have been entitled to vote under the previous Constitution. The Convention of 1846, I think, did right in striking at the enormous abuses which existed under the previous rule in this respect. I have seen a mayor of New York elected by voters manufactured on the third day of an excited threeday's election. I know there were enormous frauds in naturalization. Men swore others through, when they would not have done it, except under the stimulus of an election. Their passions were excited, so that they swore wildly; and we propose to relieve others from their temptation. I desire that the naturalization shall be completed calmly and deliberately, like the registration, thirty days before the election, so that there shall be ample time to learn whether there has been any fraud in such'naturalization. I do hope that adopted citizens will not take offense at this, as it is not intended to be an encroachment on their rights, any more than the ten-day clause in the Constitution of 1846 was intended to be. I am very sure there are not nearly so many frauds in naturalization as there were when naturalization was continued, and voting thereon, up to the day of the election, and on that day. I believe if you make it thirty days, there will be nothing like the frauds committed that now are. I protest against the practice which now prevails of drag-netting the whole community to find out persons who can be pulled into the naturalization office and run through the mill in order to get their votes at the election. I would like to have every person who comes here to live become a citizen of the country; but let it be by his own voluntary act; let it not be, as it is now, by the work of a press-gang, looking into all the cellars and garrets and holes in New York, dragging out all who can be ground through the naturalization mill, and thus swell the vote of the party. It was so last fall; it is so very often; but, if the time is made thirty days, it will enormously diminish abuses in naturalization, while, at the same time, you will preserve unimpaired the right to be naturalized. And now, Mr. Chairman, as to paupers. The gentleman who preceded me [Mr. Champlain] said there were 250,000 paupers in our State, of whom the men would be disfranchised by this bill. But, sir, the records of the city of New York show that, on the 6th of October last, just after the great war, and when there was an enormous drift of population to our cities, there were just five hundred and four men in the poor-house of that city —not citizens, but all sorts - foreigners, Asiatics - people gathered from the highways and byways and from all the seas that wash the earth-five hundred and four men. There were beside eight hundred and eleven families termed out-door poor; but I am assured that most of them were the families of widows, not to say of aliens. I verily believe that there were not five hundred persons in that great city of New York who were male citizens of the age of twentyone years and upwards who. accepted relief from the public during the month of October; and i 514 these are all that are excluded as paupers by our report; and, if there are not more than five hundred there. there cannot be more than five thousand in the State: indeed, I do not believe there are three thousand. We all know how their names are multiplied. A man appears in a town in the dead of winter, and goes to the overseer of the poor, and says that he wants help to get to the next town, where he has friends who will help him "How much do you want?" "I want a dollar." The overseer hands him a dollar, and with it the man goes to the next town, where he tells the same story to the overseer there; and so he goes from town to town, until in a few months that man figures in our returns as a hundred paupers. [Laughter.] I have seen it - you have seen it. These men are kept moving all winter. They go from town to town, and the result is that they figure up from two to three hundred thousand paupers, when there are not more than five thousand in the State-I mean men. What we mean by this provision is to limit the enormous and inordinate power which is given to a few officers who have charge of relieving the poor, to expend public money to serve the ends of this or that party. I am assured that the relief of the poor in the city of Albany is worth two or three hundred votes to.the dominant party; I am assured that in Troy it is worth three hundred votes; and I say that this dispensing of public alms is a source of political corruption. I know that the officers of the almshouse in New York have sent word that they have not allowed persons to go out to vote. I presume that is so; nevertheless, men do leave the almshouse in order to get registered, and they do vote. You cannot stop them without such a provision as we have reported. A pauper comes to his keeper and says, "I have been here long enough, and I want to leave." How can you detain him? He leaves, urged by the promptings of a political committee, who take him, fill him with liquor, get his vote, and then shove him off; and in a week he is again back in the almshouse. If paupers are entitled to vote, they will vote, and there is no power to stop them. Your overseers of the poor, your keepers of almshouses, your relief officers, will be vote-gatherers for their party, and it is but natural that they should be. I would be. I would not do anything wrong; but I would try to keep the paupers well supplied with documents on our side, and I would not be in any great hurry to give them anything on the other side. [Laughter.] The paupers of our State are not independent voters. They do not vote their own views, but those of their keepers. They do not supply a substantial contribution to the public sentiment of the State of New York. The gentleman from Kings [Mr. Barnard] the other day raised an objection to our proposed disfranchisement of idiots. He argued that blockheads are idiots-hence this exclusion will work enormous disfranchisement. [Laughter.] Mr. Chairman, if the gentleman will consult Webster's quarto dictionary, he will find this dictum, quoted from the British Encyclopedia; I believe: "A person, who has understanding enough to measure a yard of cloth, number twenty correctly, and can tell the day of the week, etc., is not an idiot, under the law." I beg that gentleman [Mr. Barnard], therefore, to calm his apprehensions —he will not be disfranchised by this exclusion. [Laughter.] It was said by a gentleman from my own county [Mr. Tappen] that the Committee on the Right of Suffrage had made undue haste in presenting their report. We certainly'did try to present our report so soon as we reasonably could; but we did not make undue haste. At our first meeting, after consultation, we invited each member of the committee who chose to submit his draft of an article; and three members did so-I among the number. My draft was not accepted, and that which most closely followed the present was accepted as a basis, to be improved as we could filid from the other drafts or the suggestions of other members who had not submitted drafts. We scrutinized very carefully, line by line, section by section and clause by clause, and it was gone over' and over and over again; fifty or sixty votes were taken on the different propositions; and no attempt was made to report until every member of the committee had been fully heard, every suggestion noted, and every proposition acted on. We made as fair and clear an article as we could well do; and if we had been six months at it instead of two weeks, I do not believe we could have satisfied ouselves better than we did by the article as reported to the Convention. The gen tieman from Rockland [Mr. Conger] with his chart, which was suspended on the wall, showed us that Blacks are not accustomed to go out of their proper latitude. I accept that statement. I believe that the Black element of our population will necessarily be smaller and smaller every year. They were one-fifth in the boyhood of our fathers, they are but one-eighth now; and the child is now born who will see them less thati one twentieth-not because they cannot live here, but because before the overwhelming tide of foreign immigration which breaks on our shores at the rate of more than a thousand a day-mainly of the young, vigorous, and energetic people of Europe —the Blacks cannot but diminish in proportion to our whole population. But, with these facts before me, I hold just the opposite of the gentleman from Rockland [Mr. Conger]. Since our Black population is so small, and gradually becoming less important, it does seem to me that we are not justified in making any extraordinary, invidious rule in reference to them, as there can be no danger from so powerless an element in the population of this State -that we can afford to be just-nay, generous-because we cannot pretend to be afraid of Blacks. If it be true, as the gentleman showed on his map, that the Blacks never did seek a home in this latitude, but only came here as they were dragged away from Africa by white men, I have no doubt that, under the beneficent rule of freedom, they will gradually gravitate toward the tropics, where they belong. They will go there because it is their nature to go there; and they will become still fewer here in proportion to our whole population. Now, Mr; Chairman 515 At this point in the remarks of the speaker the gavel fell, the twenty minutes having expired. Mr. VEEDER - I ask if it is in order for me to offer an amendment to the amendment proposed by the gentleman from Allegany [Mr. Champlain]. The CHAIRMAN - The Chair does not regard the proposition of the gentleman in order. The question was then put on the amendment of Mr. Chaimplain and it was declared lost. Mr. VEEDER —I do not like to proceed out of order, but I desire to propose an amendment to the third section. The CHAIRMAN -It was under peculiar circumstances wh;ih led the Chair to permit the gentleman from Allegany [Mr. Champlain] to offer the amendment he did. The Chair feels that it cannot again deviate from the rule by admitting the gentleman from Kings [Mr. Weeder] to offer the amendment he suggests. Mr. LAPHAM- I offer the following amendmlent: The SECRETARY proceeded to read the amendment as follows: Add at the end of section 2, the words following: " The payment of the expense of printing and circulating of papers and documents previous to any election, and of conveying sick and infirm electors to the polls is excepted from the operation of this section." Mr. KERNAN —I think, sir, if the proviso, which has just been offered could, in good faith, be strictly enforced, it would probably be proper, but I submit to the Convention, and to the gentleman from Ontario [Mr. Lapham], that it will open the door for a large amount of fraud in the use of the money that is raised for elections. We all know when they come around to get money, that they always claim they desire to raise money to print and circulate documents and to enable them to get the poor, aged and infirm voters to the polls. Hence many men will be led to give money to those who say it is for such a purpose, when in truth it will not be, to any considerable amount, used for any such purpose. Gentlemen will find that the aged and the infirm can be got to the polls without paying for it. We need not fear but what there will be sufficient printing done and documents circulated without raising any money for it. Hence, I trust we will not adopt this proviso, for I fear if we do, it will, to a great extent, nullify the provisions of the proposed article. 'We all feel that one of the great dangers to our system of government, one of the evils undermining and endangering our popular institutions, is the use of money in carrying elections. I trust we will not adopt any proviso which will enable parties to evade the provision which has been agreed upon. Printing can be done and documents circulated, and the aged and infirm electors brought to the polls without raising money as is done in the name of paying for these services, and which is used for corrupt purposes. ' Mr. LAPHAM - I have proposed this amendment, because I have found in the present statutes almost the precise words employed by me, as constituting an exception in the election law, which is an act similar in its purpose to what it is now proposed to engraft in the Constitution. I am unwilling to enact a constitutional provision which will forever prevent any citizen from paying any money for the purpose of defraying the expense of printing or of circulating documents, or of conveying aged and infirm electors to the polls. According to the doctrine of the gentleman from Oneida [Mr. Kernan], every document which is hereafter to be printed, must be printed free of expense, and no money can be contributed to defray such expense, without coming within the inhibition of the section as it now reads; no money can be paid for defraying the expense of circulating intelligence among the people, and the result is that my friend from Oneida [Mr. Kernan] and the benighted men who clamor in the name of democracy and who support his ticket, who do not want any information of any description or kind will be satisfied. I want food for the intelligent peqple of this country, who read that they may understand what they are called upon to vote for, that they may vote intelligently upon all questions which may come before them' hereafter. I do not wish to see any door opened to fraud or imposition. I repeat I have copied this from an act of the Legislature carefully framed, and of which, so far as I am advised, no complaint has been heard from the time of its passage to this day, and no abuses have grown up under it. If a person, under pretense of paying for documents, in truth and in fact pays for a vote, why, then, he is open to punishment under the Constitution as it will read with my amendment, because, if under the pretense of preserving the Constitution, an act inhibited by it is performed, it is just as much an offense as an open violation. And if, as has been suggested here, the thing is so nicely done in certain localities in the State, that it does not bear the name of bribery, it is no less bribery. If in the country, as is claimed, we do the thing so openly are we any more deserving of punishment and reprehension, than those electors, where the thing is sugared over with contrivances, to enable the perpetrators to escape the punishment to which under the law they are amenable. What I desire to secure is an opportunity for every liberal, well-disposed man, and every man who desires the circulation of intelligence among the people, to contribute of his means honestly for that purpose, and this amendment provides for nothing else. Mr. KERNAN - I would like to make a single remark. The CHAIRMAN- The Chair is of opinion leave cannot be granted to the gentleman. Mr. KERNAN -Would it be in order to move to strike out a word. The CHAIRMAN- The Chair is of opinion it cannot be done. Mr. LANDON-The language.of the section as it now stands, is " that no person shall contribute any money or valuable thing as a compensation or reward for a vote." That language is different from the Revised Statutes. I desire to call attention of the committee to the fact, that as I understanrd the 'condition of this amendixent, it re-enacts the same thing. In the second section of the amendment of Mr. C. C. Dwight there is substantially the same provision that has been adopted in the proposition of the gentleman from The question was then put on the amendment Erie [Mr. Masten]. offered by Mr. Lapham and it was declared carMr. WEED-One word in reference to the ried, on a division, by a vote of 55 to 51. amendment of the gentleman fror Ontario [Mr. Mr. CONGER —Do I understand it is now in Lapham]. We are attempting by Constitutional order to move an amendment by way of subprovision to prevent frauds in elections, that gen- stitute? tiemen upon the floor say are now an every day The CHAIRMAN —The Chair is of the opinoccurrence, and yet the gentleman from Ontario ion it is not now in order to offer an amendment [Mr. Lapham] says he has heard no complaint by way of substitute. under that statute, at the same time every word Mr. CONGER -Is it in order by way of amendthat has been uttered here has been a complaint ment? under that statute; a complaint that the statute The CHAIRMAN -By way of amendment it does not reach the trouble, and that there can be offered. needs to be some other remedy. Now he Mr. CONGER - Then I desire to offer the folproposes to amend the proposition before the lowing amendment, which I have referredto when Convention, with the words of the Revised Stat- I last addressed the committee, to wit, the same utes. The first part of his amendment, that part that was proposed in the Legislature of 1853. of which refers to circulating documents and print- The SECRETARY proceeded to read the ing I would gladly vote for, but under the last part, amendment, as follows: every gentleman familiar with elections through- Laws shall be passed excliding from the right out the State knows that three-fourths of the of suffrage all persons who have been or may be money corruptly used at elections in this State is convicted of bribery, or other infamous crime, for.paid. I cannot give my vote to incorporate into depriving every person who shall make or become the Constitution those words. It is a clause directly or indirectly interested in any bet or allowing people to pay money to get aged and wager depending upon the result of any election, infirm voters to the polls. Without any great or who shall pay, give or receive, or promise amount of trouble, every man in the State can directly or indirectly, or agree to pay or give get to the polls, certainly he can in the country, money or other property or valuable consideraby private conveyances; any infirm and poor tion with intent to influence any elector in giving man will get to the polls in that way; but if you his vote, or to deter any elector from voting, from put a clause in the Constitution authorizing the the right to vote at such election, or from holdpayment of money for that purpose, every man ing any office voted for at such election. who wishes to sell his vote, if there are persons The CHAIRMAN-The Chair is of the opinion who wish to purchase, will agree for so much the proposition is a substitute and not an amendmoney to a man to bring his poor neighbors to ment, and can only be received by reconsidering the polls, which is purchasing a vote and nothing the vote by which the former proposition was else. For that reason I am opposed to the latter carried in the committee. part of the amendment, and I wish to ask if Mr. CONGER-Then I move to reconsider that there cannot be a division, so that the first part vote with a view of enabling me to Qffer thismay be adopted and the last rejected. Mr. RATHBUN-That motion cannot be conThe CHAIRMAN —The Chair is of the opin- sidered to-day, I supposeion there cannot be a division. The CHAIRMAN-The Chair is of the opinion Mr. VAN CAMPEN —I think the necessities it can be entertained, as it appertains strictly to which call for that provision for bridging in poor the business before the committee. and infirm voters to the polls is so slight, that I Mr. CONGER-I will state that my object in cannot readily see the way in which that could be offering this is based on the following reasons: In used for the purpose of corrupting the purity of the first place, as I intimated before, I wish to the elective system. I trust the gentleman from include what has been omitted heretofore, the Ontario [Mr. Lapham] will himself consent to the action of the party who seeks by money, or other striking out of that clause. As far as the circu- valuable consideration, to deter or dissuade anylation of documents among the people is concerned body from voting. I suppose there is no objection there can be no question upon that, there is to that proposition. Then, again, we have here, no liability of that being abused, I am sure of under the form of a constitutional provision, realthat, speaking of my own neighborhood. The ly done the work of legislation; for my honorable necessity for bringing out these old and infirm friend from Ontario [Mr. Lapham] has been voters is so very slight, that I see no reason for obliged to resort to the Revised Statutes to get putting this provision in the Constitution and I the foundation for his amendment, but he could therefore beg the gentleman from Ontario [Mr. not well get the whole statute in. It is very unneLapham] to consent to a modification of that cessaryin making these constitutional amendments part of the amendment. by which the Legislature are to pass certain Mr. LAPHAM — I have no objection to strik- laws, to go into all the particulars of the law ing out the last sentence. which they shall enact. It is sufficient if we Mr. COMSTOCK-Is it not now a new propo- point out clearly to them the duty they ought to sition pursue. When you have the phrase "with intent CThe CHAIRMAN -The Chair thinks not. to influence any elector in giving his vote or to deter Mr. E. A. BROWN-I simply rise to, ask the or dissuade any elector from voting," I submit gentleman who proposed that amendment, to you have perfect power to command precisely what pint out what there is in the article which re- the Legislature of 1853 sought heretofore; to say quires any suh exception. whatinflences maybe allowed and what influences 0 517 may be disallowed. The other advantage of the be carried by the same majority. It opens the proposition I submit is this: That it is simpler in door for colonization, unless the report of th6 form, it embraces all the subjects on which the Committee on the Organization of the Legislature Legislature are to act; for you will find as in the shall fix the location of districts by county lines. report of the committee that they are also to pass Unless that prevail, then we have the colonization laws depriving anybody who shall make any bet system complete and perfect, from one district in or wager, of the right of voting. As I have the county to another, and in cities still worse. said I have an unusual advantage in pre- Mr. BARNARD-I would suggest to the gensenting this proposition, because I know when tleman from Ontario [Mr. Folger] that there are it is carefully scrutinized it will meet the other districts beside assembly districts, and alapprobation of the majority of this committee, in though we may have the proposition of the Comnpreference to the other proposition, for where I mittee on the Organization of the Legislature, so use the phrase "promise or agree to give or re- as to have county linesa represent the districts, ceive directly or indirectly," I think it is a much yet when it comes to the cities-the city of Brookbetter form, to cover the whole subject than that lyn for instance-we have an election for city which is in the proposition of the amendment, officers, held on the same day as for State officers; " receive or expect to receive," because it must be we have an election for mayor in the city, who out of an agreement directly or indirectly made may be voted for, unless an amendment is made, that the base transaction grows of buying or by all the citizens of Kings County who may selling votes. It covers both cases equally, of come in within a few days into the city of those who pay or offer to pay, and those who Brooklyn. Then we have aldermen to be elected, receive or offer to receive. This proposi- and we might have this colonization from one tion, made by the Legislature of 1853, was ward to another, unless the provision is left as it canvassed with the greatest care, and there were stood originally. more minds occupied upon it, and that took part Mr. FULLER-I desire to offer an amendment in maturing it, of the legal profession, than might as follows: be supposed, on mere notice of the result of their In section 1, line 2, after the word "citizen1' deliberations. The proposition was introduced by insert the words, "of the United States." the late Mr. Taber of Albany, who used all his As the amendment stands now, accepability in perfecting the language which should ted by the gentleman from Ontario [Mr. cover every possibility of fraud. Afterward it Folger], these words are stricken out. passed the Senate, and received all the votes of the The reason of the amendment, as stated at gentlemen present in the Senate, with the ex- the time, was that a doubt had been raised as to ception of three. That is the reason, I think, whether a colored man was a citizen of the United that this proposition will be found better and States; and, if I understood it, it was in deference more desirable by the gentleman than his own. to this doubt that this amendment was made. The question was then put on the motion of The gentleman stated that it was held in the Dred Mr. Conger, to reconsider, and it was declared lost. Scott decision that a colored man was not a citiMr. FOLGER -I wish to offer an amendment zen of the United States, and also that Governor which may perhaps be premature, but which will Marcy refused to give a passport to a colbe necessary if the report of the Committee on ored man, upon the ground that he was not a the Organization of the Legislature, is adopted. citizen of the United States; and it was in deferIt is to strike out that provision which requires a ence to these decisions, as I understand it, that this residence in the district from whjch the officer is amendment was moved to strike out the words to be elected, and also the provision requiring a "of the United States." I am not in favor of four months' residence in the county. According making any such concession- it is a virto the report of the Committee on the Organiza- tual concession- in deference to those detion of the Legislature, that is the smallest district cisions, that a colored man is not a citizen of from which an officer is to be elected; and single the United States; or in other words, it assumes assembly districts are by that to be abolished. I that there may be a well founded doubt, as to offer this amendment so as to make this article whether a colored man is a citizen of the United correspond with what appears to be the temper States. I am unwilling to admit or conof the Convention in reference to that report. cede, directly or indirectly that there is The SECRETARY proceeded to read the any such doubt. The Dred Scott decision never amendment of Mr. Folger, as follows: was an authority higher than an obiter dictum; such Strike out the words in section one of Mr. as it was it has already gone to the " tomb of the Dwight's amendment: "But such citizen shall Capulets" never to be resuscitated; it is nothing have been for thirty days next preceding the elec- to the credit of Governor Marcy, that he refused tion a resident of the district from which the a passport to a colored man, on the ground that he officer is to be chosen for whom he offers his was not a citizen of the United States; and if vote." alive, he would not do it again. I am, Sir, in favor Mr. RATHBUN - I am opposed to that amend- of extending the elective franchise to the colored ment for one reason, which I will state. If I man, but I am unwilling that while I extend it to understand the amendment, it removes entirely all him with one hand, I should be found taking back necessity of a personal residence in the district with the other a full recognition of his citizenship. for any time. Unless the district system is altered, I plant myself upon the ground that he is a citipersons may colonize a weak district from a strong zen of the United States-there I propose to one in one single day, so as to change a majority stand, and that ground I do not propose to yield. in the smaller district, and still leave the other to IT you strike out these words for the reason " 518 assigned, we shall have it alleged hereafter that is the wisdom of running our heads full against this Convention has decided by its action that a this wall, however weak it may be, for although colored man is not a full citizen of the United the wall may topple over. our scalps may chance States, but only a sort of half citizen, such as to be abraded. I think we give up nothing was described bythe gentleman from Rockland [Mr when we adhere to the language of the ConstiConger] the other evening. There is another rea- tution of 1846, which had no such phrase son why these words should be restored; the words as the gentleman from Monroe [Mr. Fuller] claims " citizen of the United States" are well understood to restore, but which crept into the amendment This word " citizen " is a word of very large im- of the gentleman from Cayuga [Mr. C. C. Dwight] port; it is one which has not been judicially because he perceived it was used so extensively defined in the Constitution of this State, and if in the report of the Standing Committee on the the amendment is left to stand, it may have to be Right of Suffrage. If it be true-I do not say it judicially defined. The amendment of the gen- is or is not-but it may by possibility be true, tieman from Onondaga [Mr. Andrews] accepted that the colored man is not a citizen of the United by the gentleman from Ontario [Mr. Folger] States. And then if we put that phrase into our assumes that.if we use the word "citizen" Constitution and say that because he is a citizen instead of "citizen of the United States," of the United States, he shall be a voter herea colored man may vote, although not a full citi- while we have come together with that subject in zen of the United States. If that is so, then why our minds among others, and with the desire to may not another man vote who is not a full give the colored citizens of this State the right to citizen of the United States. And where will this vote, we are using language which may defeat end? I think, sir, we had better preserve the the exercise of that right. I say, it is the part language as it was in this respect, and I think the of wisdom to eliminate all such doubts from our amendment is not called for. In the'next place, Constitution and plant ourselves on certainties, the amendment of the gentleman from Onondaga which we surely do plant ourselves upon when [Mr. Andrews] is a concession I am unwilling to we adhere to the language which has been make, in deference to the authors of the Dred Scott settled for twenty years. decision or any other decision of that kind. The question was then put upon the amendmient Mr. FOLGER - The gentleman founds his argu- of Mr. Fuller, and it was declared to be lost. ment upon an error. The phrase "citizens of the Mr. VAN CAMPEN —I offer the following United States " is not in the present Constitution, amendment to Mr. C. C. Dwight's amendment: and this statement eliminates all there is in his To strike out the word "four" and insert ih position. Then, it seems to me, down falls his lieu thereof "two," so that it shall read "two argument. If the gentleman will turn to the months' residence in the county" instead of "four Constitution, he will see that the phrase " citi- months' residence in the county." zens of the United States " is not there at all, and The object of moving this amendment is, that I never was, from 1777 down to the Constitution of desire not to throw any unnecessary obstacle in 1821, and the Constitution of 1846, refering to the the way of those who have a clear State resimen of color, expressly speaks of them as "citizens dence of one year. I cannot perceive that by of this State." And also it says: "And no man, retaining four months we gain anything, except a unless he shall have been three years a citizen of certain purpose to hinder what is termed immithis State." So the amendment of the gentleman gration from one district to another. It seems from Onondaga [Mr. Andrews] was not introduc- to me that every facility ought to be afforded ing a new rule, but only restoring the words the to the voters who have a clear State resifathers handed down to us, and by which I pre- dence, and whose interests are clearly identifer to abide, rather tlhan to launch upon the sea fled with the State. Therefore, I think all the of uncertainty and require a judicial construction purposes of preventing those frauds, which are on any new phrase we may use. It is very bold sometimes perpetrated by moving from one secand manly, without doubt, to despise the precedent tion of the State to another, would be clearly of the Dred Scott decision, and the precedent provided for by two months' residence as well as fixed by Governor Marcy and the precedents four. I like generally the article as it reads, but fixed in the history of the country. It is very I think this would be an improvement upon it. bold to say that there are no doubts; that we Mr. KERNAN-I am in favor of that amendcast all doubts to the winds; that we are not ment. As I understand it, it reduces the county to give way in our feeling for the negro and residence from four months to two months. our desire to take care of him. to any such fan- I am in favor of it because I am opposed to ciful, unfounded doubt. But if there is a doubt, anything of that nature. I do not see the function. is it not the part of wise and prudent men which a four mon:ths' residence in the county is to guard against it; and while pursuing the to perform in this constitutional arrangement. object we desire, to. remove from our path The voter must have been in the State for a year, all pitfalls into which we may perchance slide? and it seems to be the settled purpose of the comThat there is a doubt, the gentleman from Mon- mittee who reported this provision, that he must roe [Mr. Fuller] cannot deny. There is an express reside thirty days in the official district from which decision upon the judicial records of the country, the officer is to be chosen for whom he offers his to the effect that the colored man is not a citizen vote. Under this arrangement, I do not see any of the United States. There is an express benefit of any such limitation of four months' decision upon the records of the executive depart- residence in the county, as there must be a resiment of the United States, that the colored man dence in the official district from which the officer is not a citizen.of the United States. Then where is to be chosen. 51-9:Mr FOLGER-The reason there is for this residence of four months, is undoubtedly to prevent colonization, which might be carried on in a residence of sixty days. Take the county of St. Lawrence for instance, with its seven thousand surplus votes, and it might control the election of many assemblymen in an election, upon the result of which election might depend who should be United States Senator. In a time of great excitement, or great desire to carry that election, they might send the surplus population of St. Lawrence (supposing they were men of such principles), over into the counties of Clinton, Warren, and Essex, and down to Fulton and Hamilton, and by a residence of sixty days, they would be enabled to carry so many assembly districts as to decide the result of the Senatorship. Or, that I may not seem invidious as to party, you may take the forty-six thousand surplus of New York city, and send them up along the line of railroads and along the Hudson river, and produce the same result. In the, old Constitution this required residence was six months; the Constitution of 1846 reduced it to four, and to my mind four is as small a limit as expediency would require, and the result of any further restriction will be bad. Mr. C. C. DWIGHT-I do not conceive that a residence of four months is to prevent colonization entirely, but I understand that requirement is in its reason analogous to the requirement of one year's residence in the State, before a man shall be authorized to vote. That is to say, it is to secure an incorporation as it were into the body politic of the county of which he is to become a citizen, that he become acquainted with the people, and with the institutions of the county. There is a great multiplicity of county officers to be chosen, and it is intended there should be such a residence required as will make a man really a citizen of the county, before he shall be entitled to vote therein. I conceive that to be a stronger reason for requiring a four months' residence, than the reason that it will operate against colonization to carry an election. The question was then put on the amendment of Mr. Van Campen, and it was declared lost. Mr. MERRILL- I offer the following amendment: Insert after the word "suffrage," in the second line of the second paragraph, the words, "idiots, lunatics and," so that it will read: "Laws may be passed excluding from the right of suffrage, idiots, lunatics, and all persons who may have been or may be convicted of bribery, larceny," etc. The question was put on the amendment of Mr. Merrill, and it was declared carried, on a division, by a vote of fifty-three to thirty-four. Mr. AXTELL —I offer the following amendment: Insert after the word "crime," the words folfollowing: "All deserters from the military or naval service of the United States, and all persons who have been voluntarily engaged in rebellion against the United States." I do not propose to discuss this subject at any length, but I simply wish to say. that this amendmert,' if adopted, would probabry prevent from voting about thirty thousand persons in this State and perhaps more. There are on the rolls in the Adjutant-General's office, about twenty-four thousand deserters. And as I am informed by gentlemen who know very well about it, there are some ten or fifteen thousand who were engaged in the rebellion against the United States, who voted in this State at the last election. Then there are a large number of persons who left the State foa the purpose of avoiding the conscription. Of all these classes there are probably twenty or thirty thousand still in the State, who are voters. I believe that by idopting this amendment, we shall say that we. believe citizenship is a sacred thing, and then there is a difference between a loyal man and the man who is not loyal, that there is a difference between the man who stood faithful in the battle front and the man who deserted his colors. Mr. BARNARD —I have this suggestion to make to the gentleman from Clinton [Mr. Axtell], to insert in his proposition a provision excluding from the right of voting the men who paid $300 to, be relieved from the conscription. I think that if you want to give this privilege only to those who went to the battle front, those rich men who were able to escape by the payment of $300 ought to be prevented from voting as well as those who were real deserters, or who sought to leave the State. Mr. LANDON-I submit whether that will not contravene the provisions of the Federal Constitution, which provides that no bills of attainder or ex post facto law shall be passed. At the time these men deserted they were entitled to vote and this is a proposition to deprive them of that privilege. Mr. BICKFORD - Mr. Chairman, I am not in favor of excluding any man from suffrage who has hitherto enjoyed it. My idea is to extend the right of suffrage, and I shall therefore oppose the amendment of the gentleman from Clinton [Mr. Axtell.] I do not believe that people who are the objects of government, citizens of the United States and of this State, should be deprived of the right of voting on any such ground as this. It would cause altogether too much confusion and trouble, and is not a proposition which can be well enforced; it will make anger and ill blood, and cause a great many evils. I hope, therefore, that it will be voted down. Mr. GRAVES- I ask, Mr. Chairman, if the question is not divisible? The CIIAIRMAN- The Chair is of the opinion that it is. Mr. GRAVES -I would like to have a division on the first portion of it. Mr. COMSTOCK - The objection I' have to that proposition which must control my vote, is, that it is in direct contravention of the Constitution of the United States, which prohibits any State from passing any bill of attainder or ex post facto lawe. Now, a provision in the State Constitution, as well as an act of the Legislature, may be liable to the objection of being an ex post facto law. That which a State cannot do because it is prohibited by the Constitution of the United States it cannot do in any form, whether in the form of legislation or in the form of the Constitution or organic law.' Now, with regard to this, entire proposition, it proposes to 520 disfranchise a certain class of persons for what? Not for offenses hereafter to be committed, and for which they may be tried and punished, but for past offenses, which have been long ago completed and consummated, If we adopt that proposition, we now prescribe and ordain a new punishment for an old offense, a punishment which could not be inflicted in any form according to any Constitution or law existing when the offense was committed. That is the very definition of an ex post facto law, and that is the objection to the entire proposition which ought to dispose of fhe whole of it. This exact question Was not long ago decided by the supreme court of the United States in a case arising under the Constitution of the State of Missouri, as this would arise under the Constitution of this State if we adopt this amendment. The Constitution of the State of Missouri disfranchised certain persons for the very offenses named by the gentleman from Clinton [Mr. Axtell] in the amendment offered. The question whether that was a lawful disfranchisement went by appeal to the Supreme Court of the United States, and that provision of the Constitution of the State of Missouri was adjudged by that high tribunal to be null and void. Now, I say that this Convention should not run directly in the face of the solemn decision pronounced by the highest authority in the land. Mr. McDONALD - After the statement of the gentleman from Onondaga [Mr. Comstock], as to the decision of the United States Supreme Court, it may seem entirely useless to say anything on the other side; but the reason I am in favor of excluding men of the last two classes named, is not for a punishment, but for the reason that every one of these persons has shown that he is not fitted to exercise the elective franchise. They exhibited it at a time and in a manner that cannot be mistaken. I refer to the two latter classes. I am not in favor of excluding deserters, for this reason simply that a desertion may depend on circumstances. From those who were in the army, I understand that desertion often was to get rid of and to escape from cruel officers, or something of that kind, and for this reason it may not be well that those who did not go to the war to say that they would not have deserted if they had gone. But with regard to the other two classes, they stood like all persons who were at home, on the same foundation on which we all stood during that time of trial, and I say that any man who, during that time of trial, did not go to the war, and who either voluntarily joined the rebellion and took up arms against this government, or who to escape the ordinary burdens of citizenship, ran away to another country; that man showed beyond dispute that he is not fitted to exercise the right of a citizen of America and of the State of New York. That is the reason, and I put it upon that ground, and not as a punishment. Any man who Will not stand by his government in the ordinary exercise of the duties of citizenship, at a time of trial, is not entitled to the highest prerogative that government can give. Mr. HAND- I would ask the gentleman from Onondaga [Mr. Comstock] whether this decision of the supreme court was with reference to a constitutional provision; or a statute. Mr. COMSTOCK - It was a constitutional provision. In the case to which I referred it was a clergyman who was disabled from preaching by his refusal to take the test oath. Mr. HAND -That was a punishment. Now with reference to the constitutional provisions that we may make, I regard the matter as standing precisely in this condition. We proceed to organize the fundamental laws of this State precisely as though we never had a Constitution; all the powers that inure in us as a people are precisely as though no constitutional provision had ever existed in the world and we were beginning de novo. Now, let a people come together and form a government for themselves, they begin to look around (not under the natural law) to see what portion of the citizens may justly enjoy the elective franchise, and we exclude certain persons for certain reasons. We exclude the female for the reason that the best interests of society would not be promoted by allowing her to vote, we exclude idiots because they are disqualified from the exercise of it by their nental condition, we exclude criminals because they have forfeited the right of citizenship by their crimes and are unsafe persons to be intrusted with these important responsibilities, and so we may go on and exclude on various grounds every person we may deem unsafe as a citizen. This is in no sense a punishment for crime, it is in no sense judging judicially of a man's conduct, it is in no sense a penalty, it is in no sense like the case mentioned by the gentleman from Onondaga [Mr. Comstock], but we proceed to examine the condition and character of every person presented before us with reference to his qualification for citizenship to see whether the interests of the State would be safe in his hands, and we pass upon them separately. Now, here is a great class of people who by deserting their country in the hour of their country's peril I deem unfit for citizenship; I think they have shown that disregard for our institutions, for the great principles of liberty intrusted to their care and keeping as to render them unfit to enjoy the privileges of citizenship, unfit recipients of that power, and for that reason we exclude them. It is no ex post facto law, it is no law at all, it is simply judging of the qualification of the citizens as though we were beginning anew, as though the existence of these persons had never been known, and we look at their qualifications to see whether we will intrust them With this power. That is the way I regard it, and I think it is perfectly legitimate. With regard to what the gentleman from Kings Ms. Barnard] said about the rich men who bought off for $300, let me tell him that this $300 was not paid generally by the rich men, but by contribution to relieve the poor man (who had a family he could not leave) from the liability to that draft pursuant to law. Mr. WEED-I would like to ask the gentleman. a question. Did the rich men in your part of the country go in the army? Mr. HAND - Some of them did. We have not many rich men there. 521 Mr. GRANT-By section 21 of the act of Congress, approved March 3, 1865, it is provided as follows: And be it further enacted, That in addition to the other lawful penalties of the crime of desertion, from the military or naval service, all persons who have deserted the naval or military service of the United States, who shall not return to said service, or report themselves to a provost marshal within sixty days after the proclamation hereinafter mentioned, shall be deemed and taken to have voluntarily relinquished and forfeited their rights of citizenship and their rights to become citizens; and such deserters shall be forever incapable of holding any office of trust or profit under the United States, or of exercising any rights of citizens thereof; and all persons who shall hereafter desert the military or naval service, and all persons who, being duly enrolled, shall depart the jurisdiction of the district in which he is enrolled, or go beyond the limits of the United States with intent to avoid any draft into the military or naval service, duly ordered, shall be liable to the penalties of this section. And the President is hereby authorized and required forthwith, on the passage of this act, to issue his proclamation setting forth the provisions of this section, in which proclamation the President is requested to notify all deserters returning within. sixty days as aforesaid that they shall be pardoned on condition of returning to their regiments and companies, or to such other organization as they may be assigned to, until they shall have served for a period of time equal to their original term of enlistment" Sir, no single word has fallen from my lips in the discussion of the suffrage question in Committee of the Whole. Indeed, sir, I did not call my friend from Jefferson [Mr. Bell], to account yesterday when he charged me with being absent for two weeks, for the reason, I suppose, that he had heard nothing from me in this discussion. Sir, in regard to the statement of the gentleman from Onondaga [Judge Comstock] as to the Missouri case, and of the Supreme Court of the United States having pronounced this proposition to disfranchise deserters and rebels as ex post facto and unconstitutional, my first answer to that is, that that case did not arise on the question of suffrage, but on an attempt to deprive a person of the enjoyment of a personal right to practice a certain profession-that of preaching for his support-unless he should first take a certain oath, that he had not at a time previous to the passage of a statute, penal in its nature, been engaged in rebellion. This was held to contravene a personal right to labor and support his family in a justifiable occupation. The doctrine, that a law is unconstitutional by reason of its being ex post facto, is not applicable to the determination of the lodgment of the elective franchise in the formation of the Constitution. In framing the fundamental law we withhold the privilege from those who have heretofore shown themselves unfit to be intrusted with it, as well as from those who shall hereafter show themselves unworthvy of it. We are not making laws to punish crime, but determining the kinds and 66 classes of persons to be intrusted with the priilege of a voice in the government of the State. Now, sir, I am in favor of withholding the elective franchise from deserters and from those who voluntarily engaged in the rebellion. And it is upon these grounds, first, we demand that a person to be entitled to the privileges of a voice in the government shall be a man. of integrity. The deserter is not a man of integrity. If a deserter from the service, he has disregarded and violated a most solemn oath of allegiance taken when he entered the service; and if a deserter from conscription, he has disregarded and violated the honor and obligations of a man, as a member of society, as a citizen, and as a defender of his home, his government and its flag. In both cases he proves himself false to the highest and most sacred duties and obligations of citizenship. He occupies a position far more detestable than an open enemy. He carries within his traitorous heart the evils of misplaced confidence, and in front of the enemy his crime deserves; and his punishment is, death by the military code. In the second place, we should demand of an elector that he shall be loyal to the government and have at heart the interest and welfare of that government. The stern and terrible lessons of the war admonish us to leave no power or responsibility of the government resting with traitors. The safety of the government, its power to protect, preserve and defend itself, depends upon the deep interest and unwavering determination of the governed, who must be both its supporters and defenders. Shall we say that the coward who skulks at the approach of war, the traitor who steals the guise of a friend, and with a heart blacker than a spy conveys vital information to the enemy, the voluntary rebel who stabs at the life of the nation, are to be clothed with citizenship and the elective franchise in this great and patriotic State? The voices of thousands of the loyal and brave answer, no. These deserters are criminals, vagabonds and bounty jumpers, and cowards, who have not the loyalty, integrity, courage or manhood to protect, preserve or defend the government or its flag, and for these reasons should be excluded from the ballot-box, that great fountain of purity and preservation. There are other reasons why they should be excluded. If we allow them to exercise the right of franchise we place them upon an equality with our good and brave men. Sir, when we determine that a deserter (and I care not who he is, for a deserter from the army and from conscription in principle are the same, the man is the same), shall be placed upon the broad level with a true and loyal American citizen, we do injustice to that citizen. The very moment we say to a hundred thousand war-worn veterans who came home from the war bronzed with southern suns, and swarthy with the smoke of battle, that they shall vote side by side with the deserters and rebels whom they have learned by the severe lessons of war to despise, we degrade those defenders of the Union; the very moment that we raise the deserter, the man who deserts his country, his army and his flag in time of war, and the unre. Dentant rebel guilty of treason and murder, to 522 equal rights with all other American citizens, we degrade American citizenship. We should demand,of a man to be a citizen and a voter of this State, that he be loyal to his country, loyal to his flag, and have courage to defend it when attacked by foreign or internal foes. Now, sir, there are many voices coming to us upon this question. We must recollect that in thewar from which we have just emerged, three hundred thousand brave young men have been sacrificed; we must recollect that as we pass up and down the Mississippi, up along the valley of the Cumberland, and across the crimson fields of Virginia, the graves of Union soldiers are as thick as the leaves of autumn; we must recollect that from every one of those graves, from every one of those swampy, murky graves at Belle Isle and Andersonville, comes a voice to us saying that our lines were thinned by desertion, the enemy was informed of our position and strength by deserters; we ask you to exclude them from the rights of citizenship in the land where once we lived. We should recollect that the widow leading her children to-day, by one hand her little daughter, who can never clasp. her arms around the neck of her father again, by the other the little son who inherits the blood of the patriot father, is asking us that that boy's vote, when he arrives at maturity, shall not be canceled by the vote of a deserter. Sir, the appeal of the lame and crippled heroes of the war comes to us in the person and voice of James Tanner, a doorkeeper of this Convention, both of whose legs were shot away in battle, praying us that "his vote shall not be canceled by that of a deserter." Why, sir, the examples that we set to the world should be taken into consideration on this occasion. While the Congress of the United States have enacted that the deserter from the army or navy has relinquished his right to citizenship of the United States, and have declared that he shall hold no office of power or trust under the United States by or under the laws or government of the United States; Sir, are we to be less patriotic, less wise, less vigilant, less careful than the Congress of the United States on this subject? Shall we set a different estimate on the value of integrity and loyalty? Sir, our record must answer this question. And here let me say, that a nice distinction is sought to be drawn in this discussion on this suffrage question, and from that nice distinction we are told that men may be electors and citizens of the State who are not citizens of the United States. I say this distinction, if it really exists, makes it the more -important that we be careful to insert a provision in the Constitution of this State depriving deserters and rebels of citizenship, depriving them of that great power, the elective franchise, by which they may control the destiny of the State of New York, and, sir, it was in view of these provisions in the laws of the United States and in undertaking a manifest duty that we owe to the armies and navy of the United States, to our country, to the citizen soldier who is a resident and inhabitant of the State of New York. I have drawn this provision designing to suggest it, not as a subject of State action, but as an absolute provision in our State Constitution, upon the same subject to which the one under consideration refers. This provision is in these words: " All persons who have deserted or who shall de sert the military or naval service of the United States in time of war, and all persons who being at the time duly enrolled, have departed or shall depart the district in which so enrolled, or have gone, or shall go beyond the limits of the United States with intent to avoid any draft duly ordered, and all persons who shall have been voluntarily engaged in rebellion against the United States, shall be excluded from the right to vote in this State, unless pardoned either by proclamation of the President of the United States, authorized by law of Congress or by the Goveraon of the State, with consent of the Senate by a twothirds vote." Now, sir, in the absence of the provision in our Constitution that an elector must be a citizen of the United States, I am in favor of the pending amendment, suggesting and hoping, however, that the gentleman who offered that amendment will adopt this provision or one in its place which shall make a provision of our Constitution absolute in its terms, rejecting deserters and rebels from citizenship of the State of New York, as the law of Congress is absolute in its terms as to citizenship and the rights of deserters within the United States, so as not to leave it as the subject of future and doubtful legislation. Mr. MERRITT-I would like to ask whether the term "citizen of the United States " as used in the report of the committee would apply to those who were declared not to be citizens by this law of Congress, if not I am in favor of the amendment proposed by the gentleman from Clinton, [Mr. Axtell]. I am not in favor, however, of the second part of the proposition. I believe there is a difference between those who voluntarily take upon themselves a position in the army of the United States and those who ran away from the conscription; the circumstances under which the crime, as we so call it, was committed are different. We all very well know that when this conscription was ordered, and when its actual necessity existed, there were large numbers of persons all over the country who encouraged these people to avoid conscription, men who believed that in the process of putting down the rebellion the loyal forces wouifd be beaten and that any sacrifices we could make would be useless, and they were encouraged also, by large numbers of persons remote from the scene of conflict, and away from those surroundings which would tend to stimulating any man, it seems to me, of loyal heart, to stand in defense of the nation, therefore there is some soft of excuse that they-many of them young-were influenced to go away. I would not put it upon this class; besides, it would be very difficult to determine judicially the class who absented themselves. But not so with those who deserted from the army, their names are a matter of record and can be definitely and clearly settled; and if the language of the Committee on Suffrage does not cover the case, I hope this amendment will be adopted. Mr. PROSSER - I move the committee do now rise, report progress, and ask leave to sit again. .523 The question was put on- the motion of Mr.:been ended some thirty months:. Sir; it sanem o Prosser, and declared lost. me that it is punishment for an offense which 'Mr. HUTCHINS- I am not prepared to say has been committed during a period of inme whether as a matter of expediency or policy I long passed. Sir, if there is -any doubt that would vote to insert this clause, as proposed by the. Stte of New York is a progressive State, the member from Clinton [Mr. Axtell], in the Con- I think it is proved by the amendment now pendstitution to be adopted by the people, but I can- ing, as well as in many others which have been not adhere to the doctrine advocated by the introduced during the session of this Convention. gentleman from Onondaga [Mr. Comstock], that it Sir, when will all these things end? Gentlemen would be in its nature an expostfacto law. Unless time and again have arisen upon this floor he claims, as the gentleman from Rensselaer [Mr. and denied that this was a punishment. Sir, M. I. Townsend], that this right of voting is a is it anything else? When you address natural right, or that it is a divine right, or that it our understandings and our hearts, does is an inalienable right, or some other than a politi- not every man that has a particle of cal right, I don't see how he can sustain his posi- common sense in him know that it is a punishtion. Now as I recollect the case that came up in ment, moved in order that it may be a punishthe United States court from Missouri, the proposi- ment and intended to operate upon thirty thoution there settled was very correctly stated, as I re- sand people in this State. This is the purpose member it by the gentleman from Delaware [Mr. if not the motive of it. This is the precise Grant]. A clergyman refused to take what was effect of it if the amendmment shall be adopted. called the test or iron-clad oath, that he had not I submit to the people of this State in Convenbeen engaged in the rebellion, or afforded aid or tion, that we cannot afford to indulge in this encouragement to traitors; refusing to take that kind of punishment. What, sir, will be oath ho was debarred the privilege of practicing be done if we adopt the report of the Suffrage his profession; he appealed from that decis-Committee which has been introduced here? ion, and the United States court decided, as I un- The original proposition was to disfranchise (let derstand the decision, whatever dicta there us speak the truth plainly) some forty or fifty may have been in the language of the learned thousand white men, one-half of them poor men Justice Field, who delivered the decision, that or paupers and another class of them alien citithat profession was a franchise, it was a zens who have filed their naturalization papersright of property; without it this man could not to disfranchise, I say, some forty or fifty thousand support himself or his family, and when you took white men and to give the suffrage to some seven that away from him you took away a property or ten thousand colored men in this State. franchise that belonged to him, and it was there- It is now proposed to add to these forty or fifty fore an ex post facto law. To carry out the prin- thousand, fifty thousand others. Sir, the people ciple contended for by the gentleman from Onon- of this State are not so blind that they cannot daga [Mr. Comstock], how can you pass a law see through the motive and object and the effect that will prohibit a man from voting who has of an amendment like this. Sir, as a business been convicted of the crime of larceny. You man, I think it is not wise to adopt either this provide for that in the provision to be submitted amendment or any of those that have been proto the people, those who have been or may be posed, and which stand before the committee hereafter convicted of larceny or other infamous in connection with it. To disfranchise sc crime. Suppose the crime has been committed many thousands of deserters and some twenty privious to the adoption of your Constitution and thousand other persons named, is to banish them the man is convicted after you have adopted. it, from the State of New York practically,.with all can he set up expost-facto law as a reason why the their industry, with all their wealth and with all people of the State of New York cannot deprive the advantages of such a population. Sir, I had him of the right of suffrage. No, sir, deserters supposed after the long period that has transcome under the same clause, and the people in pired from the declaration of peace by the surtheir sovereign power have the right to exclude render of General Lee, that there would have from suffrage any class of persons to whom in been a period, and long ere this hour, when their discretion they think granting the privilege we should cease to indulge in that bitterness to, would endanger the right and the privilege that of feeling which will result, practically, in personal is conceded to us. banishment, and which is proposed for purposes Mr. E. BROOKS-I wish to say but a word or of punishment. All this shows the absence of two upon this amendment, not to discuss the every feeling of kindness and of mercy toward a constitutional question, for there is a difference class of men whom we know and feel to be among the members of the bar in reference to its wrong, but who have been most terribly punished import, although it seems to me, as a very hum- for the crime of rebellion. Sir, in the history of ble layman, that the fact that this amendment the civilized world, there never was any rebellion is introduced avowedly to punish a large number like that just passed in this country. Yes, sir, of citizens for an alleged offense against the never were a people so much punished as were State and against the government of the United those in the Southern States who engaged in this, States, and that offense committed during the war rebellion. Within ninety days past, in the 0 recently ended, proves it to be what may be fairly county of Polk, in the State of Georgia, my and properly, although perhaps not legally called attention was called to seventeen hundred an expost facto law. The avowed object of this white men willing to work, unable to find amendment is to punish men-for what? For employment, and literally begging for bread, desertion? When? During the war which has and most thankful to the people of the nor0h, $24 and of the great west for their ontributioni of corn which they made. into bread at the commencement of the week and the only food which they enjoyed from the beginning to the end of that week. Thousands and thousands of thet people literally starved and suffered as a punishment for the errors and crimes which they committed against the government. I submit to the mover of this amendment and to the advocates of this amendment that these people have been severely and terribly punished. Mr. MERRITT —Does the gentleman regard this proposition as partisan in any sense? Mr. BROOKS - Sir, I do regard it as partisan. Mr. MERRITT-For what reason. Mr. BROOKS- Sir, on the very face of it it is partisan. Every man knows it to be partisan. Let me go on. I know what the gentleman will say in answer to my assertion. Perhaps he thinks it may operate a little more upon the democratic party than upon the republican party. Let it be so. Mr. MERRITT-I would say, it has been alleged by the democrats that they sent more men to the war than the republicans, and they think they are a little better off in that respect; but I am in favor of disfranchising them, no matter what their politics. Mr. BROOKS-Whether they are republicans or democrats, I am against disfranchising them. I regard them. as citizens of the United States, who, it may be, have committed the crime of desertion or rebellion, but all these may have repented in dust and ashes for the commission of their wrong. I speak, sir, in behalf of a class of persons in whom I have no more interest than any other gentleman, perhaps less than many others. I bespeak for them through our action here a little of that human kindness which it seems to me, in times like these, so long after the rebellion has ended, is eminently becoming, and which should animate the minds and hearts of all generous people. Forgiveness is a great example taught us by the Almighty himself. It is a sentiment implanted by God in the heart of every true man. The Son of God has said if you forgive not men their trespasses neither will your Heavenly Father forgive you your trespasses, and let me say here in regard to this matter of mercy in the language of the poet that"'fThe quality of mercy is not strain'd It droppeth as the gentle rain from Heaven Upon the place beneath: it is twice bless'dIt blesseth him that gives, and him that takes; 'Tie mightiest in the mightiest; it becomes The thrdned monarch better than his crown: His scepter shows the force of temporal power, The attribute to awe and majesty, Wherein dbth sit the dread and fear of kings But mercy is above this sceptered sway: It is enthroned in the hearts of kings, It is an attribute to God himself, And earthly power doth then show likest God's, When mercy seasons justice." * * * * " We do pray for mercy, And that same prayer doth teach us all to render The deeds of mercy." Then in the name of mercy, and in the name of justice, I protest, against the disposition manifested in these various amendments, the end of which is to punish men for offenses committed so long a period in the past time. Mr. M. I. TOWNSEDIT -I agree with the gentleman from Richmond [Mr. Brooks] that this is a progressive age. I'think that all persons who have progressed from 1855 to 1867, and have heard this most eloquent and touching appeal which the gentleman from Richmond has made in behalf of citizens of foreign birth, must feel at least that one portion of the State of New York has been making rapid progress. I congratulate the gentlemen of foreign birth upon their new advocate. Mr. BROOKS -I said nothing of citizens of foreign birth. There were very many citizens who were not of foreign birth. Mr. M. I. TOWNSEND -My friend is mistaken, as he will see. He spoke in most terrible condemnation of the conmittee who proposed to prevent a large number of persons of foreign birth-aliens, as I think the gentlemen called them, from becoming citizens in 1868 in season to vote. Mr. BROOKS-I did not know they were deserters. Mr. M. I. TOWNSEND-Not deserters. the gentleman was not at the moment speaking of deserters, but of foreigners? It was out of the line of his argument, I know, but his feelings were so glowing in favor of the citizens of foreign birth that he had to turn out of the line of his argument against excluding deserters from the elective franchise and bring them in and defend them. I congratulate them upon their advocate. I wish to say one thing more in regard to it. I think that gentleman will find in this case, as in every other where they undertake to lay down a rule of action based upon no principle, that it is perfectly uncertain where it will lead. I understand that the gentleman from Onondaga [Mr. Comstock] concurs with the majority of this house in the belief that I put forth strange doctrines when I said that man had a natural right to participate in the administration of the government under which he lived. Under that doctrine the gentleman from Onondaga [Mr. Comstock] would find himself fully able, to do what is proposed to be done in this case. But I understand that the gentleman believes that society has a divine right, to exclude people at the polls from exercising the elective franchise. I understand the gentleman from Onondaga finds full authority to exclude a black man, and that he finds full authority to exclude women, and full authority to exclude any one he wants to exclude, but he cannot find any authority to exclude deserters or any other man whom he does not desire to exclude. He cannot find any way to exclude traitors, why? He does not wish to exclude them. But a word with my friend from New York [Mr. Hutchins]. Let me tell him my doctrine oes not create the necessity of allowing a traitor or deserter to vote if we can ascertain who a deserter is. I do not feel myself at liberty to vote for this amendment, not because of any difficulty in regard to my right to have them excluded, but because I consider that it is utterly impracticable to determine now who are guilty deserters and who are not. I should be very unwilling to take the muster rolls in our Adjutant-General's office to determine whether a man was a guilty deserter or not. I do not. believe that those rolls 525 would do justice to the men whose names But if there are those that entertain the consciare marked upon them at deserters. Did I entious belief that such patriotism as this is know of any mode by which it could be ascer- sufficient to make a voter, then, sir, I say tained who did desert their country in the field "0, my soul, enter not into their secrets intentionally and were really guilty as deserters, and into their assemblies mine honor be I should vote for this amendment, but as I hot united." Now, sir, in regard to what do not know of any mode by which it could be has fallen from my friend from Rensselaer done, I shall not vote for it. In placing my [Mr. M. I. Townsend] I see no difficulty whataction on this ground I think I act consist- ever. You have only to incorporate into the ent with the principle which I understand oath, which may be offered to any person when underlies our government, and the question challenged, a declaration that he has never left of whether a man has a natural right to the country to avoid the draft, or deserted from participate in the administration of government, the army, then you have proof that you require is one that has got to be determined in the and as much as is necessary; you do not need to court of morals. It is a moral question, and I am pass any law whatever for this purpose; if he called upon to act under no other rule. This shall falsely so swear, and it shall-be found after idea of its contravening the provision of the Con- inquiry that he has sworn falsely, then, sir, he is stitution of the United States, that you should liable to the pains and penalties of perjury, and pass no ex post facto law, my legal friends will may be proceeded against. I see no sort of diffiallow me to say is simply a legal absurdity. We culty whatever in making this discrimination. are not putting a punishment on these men when We can deal with these deserters with perfect we say they should not participate in the use of accuracy, and they can be sufficiently identified the elective franchise within the meaning of the by the simple test which I have proposed. Constitution of the United States. Mr. HARDENBURGH - It strikes me that Mr. BROOKS - Why do you do it, then? there is great force in the objection made by the Mr. M. I. TOWNSEND -I would not do it in distinguished gentleman' from Rensselaer [Mr. M. this case at all. If I do it at all I would do it on I. Townsend], that it is utterly inpossible to dethe ground that such men had, in my opinion, in termine at the polls who those deserters are, who this moral court,, called by the people, forfeited those individuals are that left their country for the their right, and I have a perfect right to say, sit- purpose of avoiding the draft. It was stated by ting here, forming one of the Convention, Whether my friend from Columbia [Mr. Gould], just as he they shall participate in elections or not. This took his seat, that it could be put in this test oath, court of conscience is the court in which alone and that if they committed perjury they could be this Convention can try deserters, and the United punished. I was about to ask him whether they States Constitution has placed no barrier in the are not now each and every one of them that way of the action of that court. you desire to exclude, liable to the pains and penMr. GOULD-I rise sir, to protest, as I do alties of the statute referred to. protest, against the cool assumption of the Mr. GOULD - I only hope it will be enforced gentleman from Richmond that this is avowedly against them. designed as a punishment. Sir, nobody has Mr. HARDENBURGH-You are only accumuavowed that doctrine upon this floor, not lating the punishment against them. Now, sir, a man with the exception of himself [Mr. as to those who are sought to be excluded in this Brooks]. No person who advocates this measure proscriptive article, that left the country, as has an idea of advocating it in the nature of a charged here, for the purpose of avoiding the punishment at all, and therefore the section from draft, how on earth is any man to tell what they the bill of rights which declares that no ex post went to Canada, or to Europe, or to France, for? facto law shall be passed or no bill of attainder Are the inspectors of' elections to take up that has any application whatever to this matter. challenge and call witnesses and examine it all Why, sir, we are sitting here as a Convention to day long, and until some objection is found, either say to whom shall be delegated the expression of to his heart or head, in respect to all these the sovereignty of the people of the State of New things that are in this constitutional provision York. We have a right to exclude from it those contained. And does not my friend know in whose voice in such an expression would be used respect to those that are marked on the roster or dangerously to society. Sir, let me ask muster rolls, or registered in the office of the any man here whether he supposes a man Adjutant-General, that many and many a friend who deliberately and coolly, in the hour has had to go to that office and have the word of his country's agony, and the hour of "deserter" erased from the book for the purpose her peril, shall deliberately turn his back upon of protecting the tarnished reputation of a her, and go away out of the country with the ex- young soldier who had lost his life in press purpose of avoiding his share in her defense, battle.. It is impossible for you to incorthe defense of her women and children, has a porate this provision in the article now to be right to make laws? I ask, sir, if a man who has passed by this body, not to do injustice. And I deserted his army in the very face of the foe, would ask my friend from Delaware [Mr. Grant] and when that desertion may cause the destruc- a question; I understood him to have asserted tion of the army in which he is engaged, whether here, that no man who was not a man of integrity, he shows a sufficient amount of patriotism and no man who would not obey the call of his country virtue to be intrusted with the expression of that in its hour of peril, ought to vote, then leaping away swvereignty? Sir, there may be men who sup. up into that wild region of fancy, and that great pqe tcat this is a right given to make voters. plain from which he and others have talke ad 526 kept us here for the last three weeks, instead of coming down to solid facts. I desire to ask him if he would include in this provision, and incorporated into the Constitution, the body of his anti-renter? Did they not violate law; did they not organize a rebellion in this State, until they had to be put down by the military power of this State, and was not more than one-half of them the gentleman's constituents. Mr. GRANT-I would say that I had said nothing about law-breakers. My argument was simply based on the men that deserted the army and navy of the United States. I would like to say one other wordMr. HARDENBURGH-No; that answers me exactly. Is not a traitor a law-breaker? Mr. GRANT -A traitor is a law-breaker; but a law-breaker may not be a traitor. Mr. HARDENBURGH —A traitor of that description is a law-breaker, and is a traitor by the very Constitution you are about to make, and by the laws you have passed in'this State, and it comes from the gentleman with more of an ill grace than from any other member of this Convention, that he should have made such a speech and such remarks as he did on this proposition. Mr. ROBERTSON-1I have a word to say in 'addition to the remarks made by my friend who has just sat down, in reference to the anti-renters of this State. It became necessary to declare, in the Congress of the United States, these people in a state of insurrection, in order to bring to bear upon them the laws of the United States, and any insurgents who are in arms against the laws of the United States are traitors. I have also one other matter to which to call the attention of the Convention. Just after the struggle of our revolution, upon the adoption of the first Constitution of the State of New York, when feelings ran as high as they ever have done during the recent contest, and after we had settled down in a condition to make the first Constitution of this State, even with the feelings of those who had been struggling against a powerful enemy —a band, although embittered against those of their fellow countrymen who had adhered to the parent country-they had been ridden to death by some of those who thus became traitors to the new State-no such proposition was inserted in the Constitution of this State. Looking back to that precedent, I think we can find no better or more merciful precedent than to follow that which was set by our ancestors. Mr. WAKEMAN-I have some difficulty in voting on this subject, I have not one word to say in favor of that class of men who deserted their country in her hour of peril, but my difficulty here is how shall we determine that question. If they can be convicted, under an indictment, I should have something definite, and in that case they would stand like other criminals and they could be pardoned. Now, sir, there is no one to determine except the man himself to take his oath. We have a committee on pardons here, and we can, perhaps, give the power to pardon any criminal who may be convicted of any crime in this State. I the case of traitors or men charged to be traitors, having deserted their country, how shall we determine it unless it is determined by the very action of the voter himself? How can we remedy it if we put it in the Constitution? Can we expect executive clemency to reach him? It seems to me we cannot. If we cannot reach him, should we put him beyond a man who takes the life of another. It seems to me not. A word or two more. I am not quite prepared to say we should make this sweeping declaration against that class of men. As I said before, I have no sympathy with them whatever; but we ought to do everything we can consistent with the laws of our common country to restore peace to this land and to this State. Now, these men have transgressed, with a grievous wrong. Let us forgive them if they ask to be forgiven, as we would other criminals. and not put them beyond the reach of a pardon by constitutional provision. On the simple question of excluding men that are traitors, if they are convicted of crime under an indictment, I would place them with other criminals -the man that steals your horse and breaks; into your house, or takes the life of another. I would place them on the same footing, but I would not place them there unless they had a fair trial before a jury of their country, and were convicted of the crime they are charged with. Under. these circumstances I believe I shall be compelled to vote against the amendment. Mr. gATHBUN - I find in looking at the law under which delegates to this Convention are. elected, that the provision contained in the amendment was inserted, and it further provides that deserters shall not be allowed to vote on the adoption of the Constitution. Sir, these persons that deserted were mostly young men, perhaps the large majority of them were young men, and although the crime was a very great crime, and one that is to be deplored by every man in the country, still there is to some extent an apology *for these young men. We cannot anyof us fail. to remember that during that war, and during the trials under which the government was laboring for the purpose of obtaining men to put down the rebellion, that there were a great many men in this country, and all over the country, who were averse to the raising of men. They were -hostile to enlistments and hostile to drafts, -these young men were in the habit of hearing, and had talks with, and were advised by this class of men. Many of the public newspapers in the country spoke wrongly on the subject of enlistment, and wrongly in regard to the object and purpose of the war. They spoke hostilely against the government, they attempted to bring it into ridicule and disgrace. These young men who read these papers, were educated in a measure by them. The voice was strong t ht came through those papers, and the voice from a large portion of the people was equally strong, and these young men were influenced. They were controlled in a great measure, and they have the apology to make that if they committed a great crime, it was done by the advice and under the influence of men that were Older and were wiser as they supposed, and the7 acted upon their advice. Now, sir, I have to say; for them, although I regret exceedingly thatthcey 527 should have failed in that hour-that they have an apology that is very strong, to make to this Convention. They have a right to appear here and to point to you the influence which controlled, and which made them commit that crime. While I would be willing to vote for a disfranchisement of men of mature age, if they could be selected and if they were known, so that they should go down with the mark of Cain forever, I would do it willingly. It cannot be done without including among them these young men, boys eighteen years of age, and from that to twenty-one, and not even entitled to a vote. Under the influence of their fathers, under the advice of influential men in the neighborhood, they ran away. Why, sir, should they be punished for it, for obeying their fathers, for obeying the voice of men in the neighborhood, for obeying the influences and doctrines of the papers they read? Sir, it would be monstrous; it would be cruel and inhuman that such a doctrine should be applied to these young men. Therefore, upon that ground, and upon that ground alone, I shall vote againu't the amendment. The question was then put on the first part of the amendment of Mr. Axtell, and it was declared lost. The question was then put on the second part of the amendment of Mr. Axtell, and it was declared lost. The question was then put on the third part of the amendment of Mr. Axtell, and it was declared carried. The question was then put upon the proposi'tion of the gentleman from Ontario [Mr. lcDonald] as amended, which was declared carried. Mr. POND - I wish to suggest that the amendment which I alluded to last night ought to go in the forepart of that section between the words " offer to" and the words " or terms." I move to amend it. The question was tlhen put on the amendment of Mr. Pond and it was declared carried. Mr. BARKER-I move to amend the clause excluding persons engaged in the rebellion, by adding at the end "until they shall have been pardoned by the President of the United States, or the Governor of the State of New York." The question was put upon the amendment of Mr. Barker and it was declared lost. The question was then put on the first section as amended and it was declared adopted, on a division, by a vote of 70 to 45. Mr. FOLGER-I move that the committee do now rise, report progress, and ask leave to sit again. The CHAIRMAN-The Chair will inform the gentleman from Ontario that the committee will not have time to ask leave to sit again. The committee will be dissolved in a few moments under the rule of the Convention. Mr. BARKER-The hour of half-past seven having arrived, I move that the committee do now rise, report progress, and ask leave to sit again, The CHAIRMAN - The Chair wll inform the gentleman that no motion is needed under the order of business, as directed by the Convention. Tile time having arrived the committee will now rise. 'Whereupon the committee rose and the PRESIDENT resumed the chair in Convention. Mr. ALVORD, from the Committee of the Whole, reported that the committee had had under consideration the report of the Committee on the Right of Suffrage and the Qualifications to Hold Office; that that they had gone through with a portion of the same, 'and made some amendments thereto, and the hour fixed upon by a resolution of the Convention practically discharging the committee from further consideration of the report, they had directed their Chairman to report the fact to the Convention, and to submit their action to the Convention. Mr. FOLGER —I offer the following resolution: The SECRETARY proceeded to read the resolution, as follows: Resolved, That the report of the Standing Committee on the Right of Suffrage, etc., and the report of the Committee of the Whole upon the report of the said Standing Committee, if undetermined at this sitting, shall be the special order for to-morrow morning, immediately after the adoption of the journal, and for every succeeding morning at the same time, until the report of the said Standing Committee is disposed of in the Convention. Mr. CHURCH - I move to amend the resolition that the report shall be printed. Mr. FOLGER- I accept that. The question was then put, on the resolution of Mr. Folger as modified, and it was declared carried. The question was then put on agreeing with the report of the committee. Mr. ALVORD - It strikes me, with due deference to the ruling of the Chair, that we have no report of the committee to agree to. We lay it before the Convention under the order of the Convention, and it is for them to act upon it. The PRESIDENT- The Chair will state that this is an anomalous state of things, and will leave the Convention to adopt their own course of action. Mr. ALVORD- It strikes me that the resolution offered by the gentleman from Ontario' [Mr. Folger] as amended by the gentleman from Orleans [Mr. Church] will cover the whole case. It now is in the power of the Convention to be acted upon as a special order immediately on the incoming of the Convention to-morrow, after the reading of the journal. I move that the Convention do now adjourn. Mr. FIELD- I desire to ask leave of absence for Mr. C. E. Parker, of Tioga. No objection being made, leave of absence was granted. The question was then put on the motion of. Mr. Alvord, and it was declared carried. So the Convention stood adjourned. THURSDAY, July 25, 1867. The Convention met al 11 o'clock A, M. Prayer was offered by REV. E. SELKIRK. The Journal of yesterday was read by the SECRETARY and approved. 528 Mr. N. M. ALLEN asked for a leave of absence until Wednesday next, which was granted. The PRESIDENT announced that the special order of the day was the report of the Committee of the Whole on the report of the Committee on the Right of Suffrage and the Qualifications to Hold Office in words the following: SEC. 1. Every male citizen of the age of twentyone years who shall have been for thirty days a citizen and an inhabitant of this State one year next preceding an election, and for the last fotur months a resident of the county where he may offer his vote shall be entitled to a vote at such election in the election district of which he shall be at the time a resident, and not elsewhere, for all officers that now are or hereafter may be elective by the people; but such citizen shall have been for thirty days next preceding the election, a resident of the district from which the officer is to be chosen for whom he offers his vote; Provided, That, in time of war, no elector in the actual military service of the United States, in the army or navy thereof, shall be deprived of his vote by reason of his absence from the State; and the Legislature shall have power to provide the manner in which, and the time and place at which such absent elector may vote, and for the canvass and return of their votes in the election districts in which they respectively reside or otherwise; "Provided also, That until the first day of January, 1869, a citizen who shall have beeV a citizen tor ten days and is otherwise qualified, shall be entitled to vote." ~ 2. No person who shall receive, expect to receive, pay, or offer or promise to pay, contribute, or offer or promise to contribute to another to be paid or used, any money, or other valuable thing, as a compensation or reward for a vote to be given at an election, shall vote at such election; and upon challenge for such cause, the person so challenged shall, before the inspectors receive his vote, swear or affirm, before such inspectors, that he has not received, does not expect to receive, has not paid, nor offered or promised to pay, contributed, nor offered or promised to contribute to others, to be paid or used, any money or other valuable thing, as a compensation or reward for a vote, to be given at such election. Laws shall be passed excluding from the right of suffrage, idiots, lunatics, and all persons who may have been or may be convicted of bribery, or of any infamous crime, and all persons who have been voluntarily engaged in rebellion against the United States, unless pardoned by the President of the United States or the Governor of the State of New York. Laws shall be passed for punishing and for depriving of the right of suffrage, and excluding on challenge, persons who shall pay or contribute, or agree to pay or contribute, or who shall receive or agree to receive any money, property or valuable thing to promote the election of any particular candidate or ticket, or who shall make or be interested in any bet or wager dependent upon the result of any election. The payment of the expenses of printing, of the circulation of papers and documents previous to any election, are excepted from the operation td this section. ~ 3. For the purpose of voting, no person shall be deemed to have gained or lost a residence by reason of his presence or absence while employed in the service of the United States, nor while engaged in the navigation of the waters of this State, of the United States, or of the high seas, nor while kept in any almshouse or other asylum, at the public expense, nor while confined in any public prison. And the Legislature shall prescribe the manner in which electors absent from their homes in time of war, in the actual military or naval service of this State, or of the United States, may vote, and shall provide for the canvass and return of their votes. ~ 4. Laws shall be made for ascertaining by proper proofs the citizens who shall be entitled to the right of suffrage hereby established. And the Legislature shall provide that a register of all citizens entitled to the right of suffrage in each election district, shall be made and completed at least six days before any election; and no person shall vote at such election who shall not have been registered according to law; but such laws shall be uniform in their requirements throughout the State. g 5. All elections by the citizens shall be by ballot, except for such town officers as may by law be directed to be otherwise chosen. ~ 6. No person who is not, at the time of taking the oath of office, an elector, shall hold any office under this Constitution. All officers shall, before they enter on the duties of their respective offices, take and subscribe the following oath or affirmation:; I do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support the Constitution of the United States, and the Constitution of the State of New York; and that I will faithfully discharge the duties of (the office he is to hold) according to the best of my ability." The PRESIDENT announced the consideration of the first section. Mr. MURPHY -I propose to offer the following amendment to the first section. "Provided, however. That no colored man not hitherto entitled to vote, shall be so entitled unless the qualified electors of the State, shall, at the general election to be held in November, 1867, on a proposition in relation thereto to be separately submitted to such electors, at the same time with the submission of this Constitution, determine in favor of extending the elective franchise to all colored men." Mr. MURPHY-Mr. President, I now offer an amendment, which I offered in Committee of the Whole, which provides substantially for the submission of the question of negro suffrage separately to the people. A resolution was adopted, offered by the gentleman from Herkimer [Mr. Graves], to the effect that all questions of a separate submission of any part of the Constitution shall be deferred until the Constitution shall be framed by this Convention. I do not wish to infringe upon any rule or order of this Convention, nor do I do so in offering this amendment, in my opinion. I suppose that that resolution having been passed,by a majority of the Convention, less than two-thirds of those present, it is in conflict with the rules of this Convention which entitl me to offer this amendment. I will state furthet, 529 that I have somewhat modified the amendment in framing this, but it is substantially the same as it was before. The PRESIDENT- The Chair thinks this amendment inadmissible under the resolution of the gentleman from Herkimer [Mr. Graves]. It knows of no standing rule in relation to a separate submission pertaining to the Constitution, but thinks that proposition, as all other propositions arising in the order of business, is susceptible to the motions prescribed by rule 23. It is the province of this Convention to postpone indefinitely or to a day certain any order of business from day to day. Mr. MURPHY-I submit to the decision of the Chair and, therefore, propose the following further amendment: The PRESIDENT-Does the 'gentleman withdraw his amendment? Mr. MURPHY-I do not withdraw it, but I submit to the decision which I understand rules it out. The SECRETARY proceeded to read the amendment. Mr. MURPHY moved to amend the section as follows: After the word " every" in line 1, insert the word "white," and at the end of line 4, insert the words " and all colored persons qualified to vote by the Constitution of 1846." Mr. MURPHY called for the ayes and noes. A sufficient number seconding the call the ayes and noes were ordered. Mr. VERPLANCK moved further to amend the section by adding thereto the following: Ne property qualification for eligibility to office, or for the right of suffrage shall ever be required in this State; but no colored citizen shall have the right of suffrage unless a majority of the votes cast at the next general election in this State shall, in addition to stating whether the vote is for or against the adoption of the Constitution, state that the vote is in favor of extending the colored citizen the right of suffrage. Mr. RATHBUN-I rise to a point of order. The PRESIDENT —The Chair rules that that involves a question of separate submission and cannot be received. Mr. VERPLANCK-I appeal from the decision of the Chair. I do not desire to submit my proposition against the wishes of this Convention or against the ruling of the President, because I am satisfied that no man has ever presided over a public body who desired more ardently than the President of this Convention to treat all persons who come before him with fairness. In reference to the question of giving the colored man the right to vote, I am entirely willing that they should have that right; if the electors of the State so decide, but the rule that has been imposed upon this Convention is a pretty severe one. Now, occupying the position that I occupy here, willing to submit this question to the people and to acquiesce in any decision they make; as an affirmative proposition I do not desire to put it in the Constitution. I am willing to put it in the Constitution with the proviso that the people shall separately pass upon this question. The amendment which I hqve the honor to offer is not that this question shall be separately submitted to the 61 people, but that when they vote upon the question of adopting or rejecting the Constitution, they shall add to the ballot that they are for or against extending the right of suffrage to all colored men. This amendment rather proscribes the form of the ballot.. Mr. HITCHCOCK - I rise to a point of order, that the gentleman cannot discuss his proposition upon an appeal from the decision of the Chair. The PRESIDENT - The Chair thinks the gentleman from Erie [Mr. Yerplanck] is approaching the question. Mr. VERPLANCK - I am very much obliged to the President for intimating that I am getting near it at all. I only desire to say that the gentlemen who feel as I do, desire that this question should be fairly represented here, and I submit that this amendment will give us a chance to be put properly upon the record, not that I would refuse absolutely, the right of the colored man to vote, but that we would give him this right, if the electors of this State so decide, and according to this amendment when the elector votes for or against the Constitution, he shall add to his bal. lot for or against negro suffrage. I submit that this is not a separate submission of this proposition to the people, and is therefore in order. Now, sir, I withdraw my appeal. Mr. VAN CAMPEN-I ask for a division of the question so that we may vote upon the first part of the proposition of the gentleman Trom Kings [Mr. Murphy], to insert the words " white male." Mr. PAIGE - I vote for this amendment under the expectation that the question of the extension of unqualified suffrage to men of color will be submitted to the people as a separate proposition, and I submit an amendment to the first section which expresses my views onthis subject. I am in favor of a discrimination in the extension of unqualified suffrage to men of color. I would allow any man of color to vote who has borne arms in the service of the United States, and is now in that service, or has been honorably discharged therefrom, or who are of sufficient intelligence to exercise with judgment the right of suffrage; and if the qualified voters of the State determine in favor of unqualified suffrage, I most cheerfully acquiesce in that determination. The SECRETARY proceeded to read the amendment of Mr. Paige, as follows: Insert immediately after first sentence of first section: "Provided, That there shall be submitted to the qualified electors of the State, at the general election to be held in November, 1867, a proposition in relation to suffrage to men of color, and in case such electors on such submission shall determine against suffrage to such men of color, then no men of color except those who possess the qualil flcations to vote, required by the Constitution of 1846, shall be entitled to vote at any election." Mr. A. J. PARKER-I merely wish to say that I shall vote for this amendment with the conldent hope that when the proper time coes, under the resolution adopted by this Convention, further provision will be adopted, submitting th people the question whether colored men shall be entitled to vote. With that viewI shll 530 vote, hoping that the whole matter will be sub- Prindle, Prosser, Rathbun, Reynolds, Root, Rummitted separately. sey, Seaver, Silvester, Sheldon, Sherman, Smith, Mr. S. TOWNSEND-Mr. President- Spencer, M. I. Townsend, Van Campen, Van Cott, Mr. FORGER-I rise to a point of order, that Wakeman, Wales, Weed, Williams-94. the gentleman has spoken before on this ques- Mr. CONGER-As I understand, sir, all tion. amendments that were offered in the Committee Mr. S. TOWNSEND-Is there such a limita- of the Whole to the first section, ought to be tion as that? offered now. I, therefore, move that the Secre..The PRESIDENT - There is. tary present the first of the series of propositions Mr. FOLGER-I insist upon the point of order. I submitted in the committee as an amendment The PRESIDENT- The point of order is well to the first section. taken. The question is on the amendment of the Mr. MURPHY —I would ask the gentleman gentleman from Kings [Mr. Murphy]. from Rockland [Mr. Conger] to withdraw his The SECRETARY proceeded to call the roll. motion for the present. Mr. STRATTON-I ask to be excused from Mr. CONGER -Certainly. voting on this proposition, for the reason that I Mr. MURPHY-I propose now to amend this am paired off with my colleague, Mr. Gerry, who section by inserting the word "white" after the is unavoidably absent from the Convention to-day, word " every" in line 1. but for this reason I would vote no. Mr. S. TOWNSEND-I suppose now that unMr. BARTO - I am paired off with Mr. C. E. der the ruling of the gentleman from Ontario [Mr. Parker, of Tioga county. I ask that I may be Folger] and the President, that I may now be excused from voting, permitted to occupy my limited five minutes (if I Mr. JARVIS -I ask that I may be excused can hold out as long) upon this new amendment. from voting; I am paired off with Mr. L. W. I had supposed myself in order before, as several Russell. of the gentlemen who had then preceded me had Mr. MASTEN - I also ask to be excused from merely risen for temporary inquiries. voting, having agreed to pair off with Judge The PRESIDENT —The gentleman is now Ketcham, who is now absent. entirely in order. Mr. E. A. BROWN - I would suggest that this Mr. S. TOWNSEND- To resume then, sir, system of pairing off on this question will have what I was interrupted in saying. I have listened, no particular effect one way or the other. I would Mr. President, attentively to the prolonged debate suggest that the gentleman from Erie [Mr. Masten] upon the suffrage question in the Convention, and and the gentleman with whom he pairs vote the the Committee of the Whole, without noticing same way..That is a kind of pairing I do not that a very important consideration that will in understand. part influence my vote m favor of the amendment Mr. MASTEN-I would inquire of the gentle- just proposed by my friend from Kings [Mr. Murman how he knows that fact, Judge Ketcham not phy] restraining an indiscriminate colored vote, having been here to discuss the question himself? has been brought before the Convention. WhatThe PRESIDENT-The Chair rules the ques- ever inducements existed with our predecessors in tion is irrelevant in the order of business. 1777, 1801, 1821 and 1846 in recognizing a distincThe SECRETARY proceeded with the call on tion as to this class of electors, have been many the amendment of Mr. Murphy, and it was times manifolded by recent events in a portion of declared lost by the following vote: our country, that have placed in the views of Ayes- Messrs. Barnard, Bergen, E. Brooks, many gentlemen upon this floor, a body of four Burrill, Cassidy, Champlain, Chesebro, Church, millions of mainly illiterate, and in relation to all Cochran, Colahan, Comstock, Conger, Corning, matters that concern the relation of voters in their Garvin, Hardenburgh, Hatch, Hitchman, Kernan, enlightened knowledge of their duties to governLarremore, Law, A. R. Lawrence, Livingston, ment, an ignorant people, on the same platform, Loew, Lowrey, Mattice, Monell, More, Morris, aftera years' residence, with the existing 800,000 Murphy, Nelson, Paige, A. J. Parker, Potter, voters in this State. My knowledge of this class of Robertson, Rogers, Rolfe, A. D. Russell, Schell, our population is drawn from more direct expenSchoonmaker, Schumaker, Seymour, Tappen, S. ence than perhaps any of those whom I am now Townsend, Tucker, Veeder, Verplanck, Wickham, addressing. If gentlemen will refer to that townYoung-48. ship of this State (which represents my post-office Noes - Messrs. A. F. Allen, C. L. Allen, N. M. address) they will obserye that we have among us Allen, Alvord, Andrews, Archer, Armstrong, as large a proportion as ten per cent of this Axtell, Baker, Ballard, Barker, Beadle, Beals, colored element, indeed in my own schoolBeckwith, Bell, Bickford, Bo en, E. P. Brooks, district the proportion is even still greater. E. A. Brown, W. C. Brown, Carpenter, Case, From such an opportunity of observation, Cheritree, Clark, Clinton, Cooke, Corbett, Curtis, although I recognize many of their estimable Duganne, C. C. Dwight, T. W. Dwight, Eddy, characteristics, I think that it is the duty of this Ely, Endress, Evarts, Farnum, Ferry, Field, body to interpose some barrier to the inroad, Flagler, Fo]ger, Fowler, Francis, Frank, Fuller, after a brief residence, of a mass of their still Fullerton, Goodrich, Gould, Grant, Graves, Gree- ruder brethren from the race that now people the ley, Gross, Hadley, Hammond, Hand, Harris, His- disorganized plantations of our southern country, cock Hitchcock, Houston, H untington, Hutchins, who, under some unscrupulous military leader, Kinney, Krum, Landon, Lapham, A. Lawrence, M. or at least his covert influence, shall neutralize. Lawrence, Le, Ludington, McDonald, Merrill, your vote, Mr. President, or mine, and at the next Merritt, Merwin, iller, Opdyke, Pond, President, election for our chief magistrate' may, in our ex 531 tended State, even-where a change of a few ence to the amendment I introduced yesterday to thousand votes would at this time reverse the prevent migration in this State, and giving them the political character of the State-then control the right of the franchise before it shall be determined features of its electoral vote. by actual experience that they can exercise that Mr. MURPHY - With the permission of the right. I ask for the ayes end noes on my amendgentleman I will withdraw the amendment. ment. Mr. ENDRESS-I move to strike out the whole A sufficient number seconding the call, the ayes of the first proviso in reference to electors in the and noes were ordered. actual military service of the United States. Gen- Mr. MASTEN -I desire to be excused from tiemen will see that it is provided for in the third voting for the reason which I assigned before, section, in the last five lines. Upon read- and I desire simply to say one word. I.inadvering, you will see it more carefully expressed tently voted before, forgetting my arrangement in section third than in section one. It is more care with Judge Ketcham. The reason of my voting fully expressed in this respect. Gentlemen will was because I am opposed to this property qualiperceive that it provides for the absence of per- fication, and I shall, sir, here and elsewhere, vote sons in the service of the State and of the United against that proposition, whether it be boldly put States, though not out of the State. During the forth or covertly concealed. year 1864 this occurred in many instances; Mr. STRATTON —I ask to be excused from several hundred voters were at Elmira, pot out voting for the reason assigned before. Had it not of the State, not in the service of the United been for that, I should have voted no. States, and in and about the bay of New York. The question was then put on the amendment There is another reason why it had better be of Mr. Burrill, and it was declared lost by the folin section three; it more properly belongs lowing vote: there as relating to the subject of residence. It Ayes-Messrs. Barnard, Bergen, E. Brooks, will simplify section one very much. I move, Burrill, Cassidy, Champlain, Chesebro, Church, therefore, to strike it out. Cochran, Colahan, Comstock, Conger, Corning, Mr. RUMSEY —I apprehend the gentleman Garvin, Hardenburgh, Hitchman, Kernan, Larrehas not considered the effect of the amend- more, Law, A. R. Lawrence, Livingston, Loew, ment he proposes to make. What he proposes Lowrey, Mattice, Monell, More, Morris, Murphy, to strike out is a constitutional provision for the Nelson, Paige, A. J. Parker, Potter, Robertson, preservation of the right of those whol are absent Rogers, Rolfe, A. D. Russell, Schell, Schoonmaker, from the State to vote. He proposes to simplify Seymour, Tappen, S. Townsend, Tucker, Veeder, the provision which requires the Legislature to Verplanck, Wickham, Young-46. make laws to provide for the right of suffrage for Noes-Messrs. A. F. Allen, C. L. Allen, N. M. the soldiers who have left the State, while he Allen, Alvord, Andrews, Archer, Armstrong, Axstrikes out the only right they have to vote when tell, Baker, Ballard, Barker, Beadle, Beals, Beckaway from home in service, for it will be observed with, Bell, Bickford, Bowen, E. P. Brooks, E. A. that the section will stand, if this proviso is Brown, W. C. Brown, Carpenter, Case, Cheritree, stricken out, with the declaration that voters shall Clark, Clinton, Cooke, Corbett, Curtis, Duganne, vote where they reside and not elsewhere. C. C. Dwight, T. W. Dwight, Eddy, Ely, Endress, Mr. GREELEY —I desire to say a word. The Evarts, Farnum, Ferry, Field, Flagler, Folger, committee has very carefully 'considered this Fowler, Francis, Frank, Fuller, Fullerton, Goodmatter and have fixed section three as this bill rich, Gould, Grant, Graves, Greeley, Gross, Hadstands, so we believe it answers every purpose; ley, Hale, Hammond, Hand, Harris, Hiscock, there may be twenty thousand people called away Hitchcock, Houston, Huntington, Hutchins, Kinfrdm their homes before election and they cannot ney, Krum, Landon, Lapham, A. Lawrence, M. H. vote at all under the proviso of the first section, Lawrence, Lee, Ludington, McDonald, Mferrill, but they can vote under the way we have fixed Merritt, Merwin, Miller, Opdyke, Pond, President, it. The Legislature provides for taking their Prindle, Prosser, Rathbun, Reynolds, Root, Rumvotes when absent from their homes; they may sey, Seaver, Silvester, Sheldon, Sherman, Smith, be defending the coast or may be defending Spencer, M. I. Townsend, Van Campen, Van Cott, the northern frontier. This proviso does not give Wakeman, Wales, Weed, Williams-96. them the right to vote; but this proviso under Mr. KERNAN moved to amend the section by section three does give those citizens who are con- striking out the word "thirty," in line 2 and strained to stay away from their homes, defend- inserting in lieu thereof the word " ten." ing their country, the privilege of voting. Mr. KERNAN -This amendment will leave The question was then put on th6 motion of the proposed Constitution as to this subject preMr. Endress, and it was declared carried. cisely as the Constitution of the State has been Mr. BURRILL-I beg leave to offer the fol- for the past twenty years, and is now. I listened lowing amendment, substantially the same as that to the discussion in the Committee of the Whole which I offered in the Committee of the Whole. on this question, and no good reason to my mind Add at the end of line 10: was given why we should require a man to be a "But no man of color other than those who voter to be a citizen longer than ten days.:It have the qualifications required under the Consti- seems to me that this answers all that is required tution of 1846, and those who may be born in to prevent the alleged struggling for naturalization the State, shall be entitled to vote under the pro- immediately preceding the election. EVery man vision hereof." must be naturalized at least ten days beforete I wish to say, in reply to the remarks: ofthe election. I think this is long enough; naturaia gentleman from Seneca [Mr. Hadley], with refer- tion has been administered under the present Con 532 stitution; all have become accustomed to it; I have neither seen, nor have I heard that the length of time required before the election was not. fpr all practical purposes, long enough. Persons have declared their intention to be naturalized with reference to this provision, and I trust that we will adhere to the present Constitution in this respect. Mr. SCHUMAKER —I hope that the amendment of the gentleman from Oneida [Mr. Kernan] will prevail. As one of the Committee on Suffrage I voted, in connection with my associate, Mr. Cassidy, in favor of retaining this ten day clause. I would say, Mr. President, that there is no necessity even for that. In the Constitution of 1771 and the Constitution of 1821 no such clause appears. It is a blot upon the Constitution of the State of New York, and a direct stab at the adopted citizens of the State. It is suspending the functions of a citizen for ten days after he has acquired the rights of a citizen. You might as well say you will suspend the young man who has arrived at the age of twenty-one years ten days before he shall exercise the privilege of a citizen. And furthermore, no State in these United States has such an obnoxious clause in any of their Constitutions; there is no State but the Empire State among the whole number that has this blot in its Constitution, which suspends the right of a citizen after it has been honestly and fairly acquired by a residence here of five years. Mr. President, there is no reason, placing, as we do, the black man oq an equality with the white man, why we should suspend the functions of this class of adopted citizens for any length of time. The chairman of the Committee on Suffrage in his report says, that it will prevent the raking up of unwilling and ignorant foreigners-reluctant foreigners. If the last day is thirty days previous to election, there will be just. as much raking up as if the last day was ten days before election. We have seen that in our cities, and we will see it if we make it six months before the election. I was very much surprised when I heard my friend from Richmond [Mr. Curtis] extol the black man and the women, that he did not say one word in relation to this element in society-the adopted citizens of this country. Mr. CURTIS — I would ask the gentleman whether the white men and women coming to this country are not already provided for in that respect? Mr. SCHUMAKER-I would answer the gentleman and say that I do not think he apprehends what I meant. I mean to say, when he so eloquently extolled the rights of the women and the bravery of the black man, and said that he should be considered equal with the white man, that he did not say a word in relation to the adopted citizens in this country, whose functions this Convention are attempting to suspend for the term of thirty days. I would ask whether the adopted citizens in this country have not " marched abreast," aa Mr. Greeley terms it, with the native; white man and the native black man, in all the great wars of this country, from the time of the r:: auton down to th war to suppress the rebel lion; whether he did not stand with the black man at Fort Wagner and Milliken's Bend, and whether they were not with the brave Butler [laughter] before Petersburg and Big Bethel [ahem], fighting just as bravely, to say the least of them, as the black man and native white man, and why should this thrust be made at the adopted citizens. I expected to hear some argument from the eloquent gentlemen, in favor of not suspending the right of any particular class of citizens, white or black, in this particular. [ say, Mr. President, that it is not in any Constitution of any State this malignant stab at the adopted citizens and it ought not to be, both on account of their bravery and their industry-for all our great improvements have been made by foreigners. The name of Clinton would never have been immortal if it had been left to the native white and native black men to dig the Erie canal; there would not have been water enough brought from Lake Erie to the Hudson river for a man to swim in. Mr. GREELEY-Mr. President-I call time. The gentleman's time is up. The PRESIDENT —The gentleman's time is not yet up. Mr. SCHUMAKER - I am much obliged to the gentleman from Westchester [Mr. Greeley], who so much amused me in the committee and in the Convention by his frequent discussions on this report, for calling time. But he is not time-keeper in this battle, and, from his liberal, whole-souled nature, I am surprised that he should so quickly call time on me, more especially as I have taken no part in this gasconade up to this time, and when I would not have said one word but for this unfair, illiberal and unenlightened clause against the adopted citizen. Mr. President, this clause is in direct conflict with the naturalization laws of this country. We all know that five years is long enough for a man to understand the Constitution and the laws of this country, if he desires, and if he cannot do it in five years he never can. Underthis clause, if a foreigner arrives in this country within thirty days before an annual election, he has to reside over six years before he can vote, he has to pass over six annual elections and cannot vote until the seventh annual election after his arrival in this country. Here the gavel fell, the five minutes having expired. Mr. GREELEY-No person is disfranchised by this proposition, naturalized or native, nor are those who have given notice that they propose to become citizens. As the clause stands in this article, with the proviso which has just now been retained, every person who has even given notice of his intention to become a citizen is protected. We require a man who comes.here from Virginia, Ohio, Massachusetts, or any other State, to be a citizen of our State one year before he can exercise the franchise. We do not mean this to be invidious; we do not mean to disfranchise them; but we say that a little time is necessary. The principle is covered precisely by the Constitution of 1846, which first made the discrimination. The Convention, of that year wisely considered the matter, and decidedthat it was not best to havo voters naturalized 538 while an election is going forward in order to carry that election; and they placed the time at ten days. Every man must be aware how the excitement of a contested election swells and swells as you approach the day of trial; how men are scrambled after, ran after, sent for, dug up, and hunted out from every quarter. We wish to have immigrants deliberately choose to become citizens- as many as will; but not, as they now are, hunted up by naturalization committees, who have packages of naturalization papers already made out to put the men through with, and who have agents in courts prepared to crowd them through by scores. Let us have time. We want six days on the registry before voting, and I think thirty days' citizenship short time enough. Let them be citizens thirty days before they vote. A learned judge said here that they stopped naturalizing in his court ten days before election. I do not see what right they have to do that. I think persons eligible to citizenship have a right to be naturalized at any time. It seems to imply that the object of naturalization is simply to vote, and I do not wish men naturalized for that express purpose; I would have men naturalized because they choose to become citizens and to assume all the responsibilities and discharge all the duties of citizens, the right of voting included. Mr. CORBETT- There seems to be some doubt about the paternity of this amendment. I supposed that the gentleman from Cayuga [Mr. C. C. Dwight] had control of the original amendment, and yet the gentleman from Ontario [Mr. Folger] has accepted the amendment offered by the gentleman from Onondaga [Mr. Andrews], requiring thirty days' citizenship to precede the exercise of the elective francnise. There is a class of men in this Convention who have assumed during the discussion of this subject, that all the ignorance, and all the wickedness in this country have come from the other side of the Atlantic, and that the whole purport of legislation is to guard against this element and prevent its being mischievous. The chairman of the Committee on Suffrage spoke yesterday about the wholesale manufacture of voters. For my part, sir, I am willing to throw all the dignity possible around the ceremony of making a man a citizen. And yet I have no faith in the subterfuges that are here introduced for the purpose of purifying the franchise in that direction. There are men from Europe landing on our shores every day, who understand our system of government, and are as well informed in regard to the politics of the United States, as men who are living here, and I would as soon trust a man who learned democracy from the O'Donoghue, as I would a man who learned democracy from Jefferson Davis. I am in favor, then, of the amendment offered by the gentleman from Oneida [Mr. Kernan] inserting ten days instead of thirty, and of leaving the clause as it stands in the existing Constitutiorn. Mr. KERNAN called for the ayes and noes. A sufficient number seconding the call, the ayes and noes were ordered. The Clerk proceeded to call the roll, and on Mr.. A. Brown's name being calledMr. B. A. BROWN-I ask to be excused fro voting, and desire to isay that in view of the en. larged and patriotic views expressed ky the hon. orable gentleman from New York [Mr. Gross] on Friday, I came to the conclusion it would be right and proper to retain the Constitution as it is now. I withdraw my request to be excused and vote ayeOn Mr Ludington's name being calledMr. LUDINGTON - I wish to say in giving my vote, that I am not aware of any existing abuse in the present Constitution in that respect, and, therefore, I vote aye. On Mr. Roy's name being calledMr. ROY-I wish to state in explanation of MY not voting, that I have paired off with Mr. Hate. The Clerk proceeded with the call, and the amendment was declared carried by the following vote: Ayw-Messrs. Alvord, Armstrong, Axtell, Baker, Barnard, Barto, Beals, Beckwith, Bergen ' Bickford, Bowen, E. Brooks, E. A. Brown, Burrill, Carpenter, 'Cassidy, Champlain, Cheritree, Chesebro, Church, Clinton, Cochran, Colahan, Comstock, Conger, Cooke, Corbett, Corning, Curtis, C. C. Dwight, Ely, Evarts, Folger, Faller, Fullerton, Garvin, Gross, Hadley, Hardenbargh, Harris, Hitchman, Huntington, Jarvis, Kernan, Kinney, Landon, Larremore, Law, A. R. Lawrence, Livingston, Loew, Lowrey, Ludington, Masten, A-lattice, Monell, More, Morris Murphy, Nelson, Opdyke, Paige, A. J. Parker, Potter, Reynolds, Robertson, Rogers, Rolfe, Roy, A. D. Russell, Schell Schoonmaker, Schumaker, Seymour, Silvester, Sheldon, Spencer, Stratton, Tappen, S. Townsend,. Tucker, Van Campen, Veeder, Verplanck, Weed, Wickham, Young-87. Noes-Messrs. A. F. Allen, C. L. Allen, AL Allen, Andr6ws, Archer, Ballard, Barker, Beadle, Bell, E. P. Brooks, W. C. Brown, Ca-,e, Clark, Duganne, T. W. Dwight, Eddy, Endress, Farnum, Ferry, Field, Flagler, Fowler, Franci3, Frank, Goodrich, Gould, Grant, Graves, Greel,-y, Hammond, Hand, Hiscock, Hitchcock, Houston, Hutchins, Kruin, Lapham, A. Lawrence, M. H. Lawrence, Lee, McDonald, Merrill, Merritt, Merwin, Miller, Pond, President, Prindle, Prosser, Rathbun, Root- Rumsey, Seaver, Sherman, Smithl M. I. Townsend, Van Cott, Wakeman, Wales, Williams-60. Mr. VAN CAMPEN-I move to strike out in the Tourth line the word "four" and insert the word "two, so that it will read 4'tWo montLs" instead of four months." I know of no good. reason why the term of four months in the county should still be required for an elector in this State, and who.has a clear State residence of a year. 1, for myself, would be satisfied with a less time than, two months, but I make that proposi. tion as a compromise between those who desire to reduce it to. thirty days -and those who are in favor of'four months. Upon the discussion of this question last evening tile gentleman from Cayuga [Mr. C. 0. Dwight] said that one of the reasons for retaining the &ur months was that if a gentleman was moving from one part of the State to another it blecam: 6 neces. sary for him to become acquainted4ith the tutious of the county. I ask. if the institute of: the,: coandes are not au the same in tho voting, and desire to say that in view of the enlarged and patriotic views expressed by the honorable gentleman from New York [Mr. Gross] on Friday, I came to the conclusion it would be right and proper to retain the Constitution as it is now. I withdraw my request to be excused and vote aye. On Mr Ludington's namebeing calledMr. LUDINGTON - I wish to say in giving my vote, that I am not aware of any existing abuse in the present Constitution in that respect, and, therefore, I vote aye. On Mr. Roy's name being calledMr. ROY-I wish to state in explanation of my not voting, that I have paired off with Mr. Hale. The Clerk proceeded with the call, and the amendment was declared carried by the following vote: Ayes-Messrs. Alvord, Armstrong, Axtell, Baker, Barnard, Barto, Beals, Beckwith, Bergen, Bickford, Bowen, E. Brooks, E. A. Brown, Burrill, Carpenter, Cassidy, Champlain, Cheritree, Chesebro, Church, Clinton, Cochran, Colahan, Comstock, Conger, Cooke, Corbett, Corning, Curtis, C. C. Dwight, Ely, Evarts, Folger, Faller, Fullerton, Garvin, Gross, Hadley, Hardenburgh, Harris, Hitchman, Huntington, Jarvis, Kernan, Kinney, Landon, Larremore, LaW, A. R. Lawrence, Livingston, Loew, Lowrey, Ludington, Masten, Mattice, Monell, More, Morris Murphy, Nelson, Opdyke, Paige, A. J. Parker, Potter, Reynolds, Robertson, Rogers, Rolfe, Roy, A. D. Russell, Schell Schoonmaker, Schumaker, Seymour, Silvester, Sheldon, Spencer, Stratton, Tappen, S. Townsend,. Tucker, Van Campen, Veeder, Verplanck, Weed, Wickham, Young-87. Noes-Messrs. A. F. Allen, C. L. Allen, N. M. Allen, Andrews, Archer, Ballard, Barker, Beadle, Bell, E. P. Brooks, W. C. Brown, Case, Clark, Duganne, T. W. Dwight, Eddy, Endress, Farnum, Ferry, Field, Flagler, Fowler, Francis, Frank, Goodrich, Gould, Grant, Graves, Greelay, Hammond, Hand, Hiscock, Hitchcock, Houston, Hutchins, Krum, Lapham, A. Lawrence, M. H. Lawrence, Lee, McDonald, Merrill, Merritt, Merwin, Miller, Pond, President, Prindle, Prosser, Rathbun, Root, Rumsey, Seaver, Sherman, Smith, M. I. Townsend, Van Cott, Wakeman, Wales, Williams-60. Mr. VAN CAMPEN-I move to strike out in the fourth line the word "four" and insert the word "two," so that it will read "two months" instead of "four months." I know of no good reason why the term of four months in the county should still be required for an elector in this State, and who has a clear State residence of a year. I, for myself, would be satisfied with a less time than two months, but I make that proposition as a compromise between those who desire to reduce it to thirty days and those who are in favor of four months. Upon the discussion of this question last evening the gentleman from Cayuga [Mr. C. C. Dwight] said that one of the reasons for retaining the four months was that if a gentleman was moving from one part of the State to another it became neces. sary for him to become acquainted with the Instl; tution of the county. I ask if the institutions of the conties are not all the same in the t;t I 534 there is but one system in every county. I know residence along in the month of September, who of but one reason to make it necessary, and that are patriotic men, and will thereby lose their 'is to become acquainted with the candidate, and votes. I think they will be favorably affected by that every gentleman can see is a matter which this amendment. There are large classes of that can be very easily overcome. Any gentleman can description, and I trust the Convention will take become acquainted with the character of the can- their wants into consideration by adopting this didate presented for his suffrage in two months' amendment. time, and so far as the question of settling, as to The question was then put on the amendment his residence in any particular place in the State, of Mr. Van Campen, and was declared lost by in one county or another, two months' time is en- the following vote: tirely sufficient. Ayes-Messrs. Axtell, Barto, Bickford, Bowen, Mr. KINNEY-I move to amend the amend- E. Brooks, E. P. Brooks, E. A. Brown, Burril, ment as follows: Cassidy, Champlain, Chesebro, Church, Colahan, Strike out all after the word " election" in line Comstock, Conger, Cooke, Corning, Eddy, Endress, three, down to and including the word "county" Ferry, Flagler, Frank, Garvin, Goodrich, Greeley, in line four, and inserting in lieu thereof the words Gross, Hadley, Hammond, Hardenburgh, Hitch"and for the last thirty days a resident of the man, Hutchins, Jarvis, Kinney, Krum, Landon, election district." Larremore, Law, A. R. Lawrence, M. H. LawThe question was put on the amendment of Mr. rence, Livingston, Loew, Magee, Masten, Mattice, Kinney, and was declared lost. McDonald, Merrill, Miller, Monell, More, Morris, Mr. MERRILL- There is one simple, sufficient Murphy, Nelson, Opdyke, A. J. Parker, Potter, reason, Mr. President, why I hesitate to favor the Prosser, Robertson, Rogers, Roy, Schell, Schuproposition of the gentleman from Cattaraugus maker, Seymour, Sheldon, Smith, Stratton, Tappen, [Mr. Van Campen], although it seems to me rea- S. Townsend, Tucker, Van Campen, Veeder, sonable enough, per se, and that is a reason which Verplanck, Wakeman, Weed, Young —74. I have heard repeated, during this discussion, Noes-Messrs. A. F. Allen, C. L. Allen, N. M. with what the great dramatist calls "damnable Allen, Alvord, Andrews, Archer, Armstrong, iteration." This reason, sir, is that "our fathers" Baker, Ballard, Barker, Barnard, Beadle, Beals. fixed upon this period of four months, the " Con- Beckwith, Bell, Bergen, W. C. Brown, Carpenter, vention of 1846," which the gentleman from Case, Cheritree, Clark, Clinton, Cochran, Corbett, Columbia [Mr. Silvester] had the hardihood to Curtis, Duganne, C. C. Dwight, T. W. Dwight, Ely, decline to follow. the other day, selected this term Evarts, Farnum, Field, Folger, Fowler, Francis, of county residence. It has stood for twenty Fuller, Fullerton, Gould, Grant, Graves, Hand, years -a full score, and more, Mr. President. It Harris, Hiscock, Hitchcock, Houston, Huntington, has "received judicial construction." Think of Kernan, Lapham, A. Lawrence, Lee, Lowrey, that! The high legal tribunals have so "con- Ludington, Merritt, Merwin, Paige, Pond, Presistrued" the existing section that one could at any- dent, Prindle, Rathbun, Reynolds, Rolfe, Root, time, by merely consulting a lawyer or the Rumsey, A. D. Russell, Schoonmaker, Seaver, reports, learn precisely how long a period of time Silvester, Sherman, Spencer, M. I. Townsend, four months is, and various other items of equally Van Cott, Wales, Wickham, Williams-14. valuable information I [Laughter.] The value Mr. ANDREWS-I move the following amendto the citizen of this " construction" of an article ment: that should be about the simplest and clearest Strike out the word "provided" in line 11 -and provision of the fundamental law, I will not at- all after the word " also" in line 18. tempt to estimate. But in view of all this, sir- Mr. VAN CAMPEN-I move a reconsideration standing in my place with twenty years looking of the vote which has been taken. down upon me, with fragrant memories of the Objections being made, the motion was laid Convention of 1846 constantly wafted under my on the table under the rule. nose-I shrink from disturbing this embalmed Mr. LAPHAM-I offer the following amendfour months' requirement. [Laughter.] With my ment: eyes turned conservatively backward, I ask if all Strike out all after the word " resident" in line the honest industry of delegates and judges and 9, to and including the word "whom" in line 10, counselors, shall now be made of no avail? and inserting in lieu thereof the words "of the Bearing in my breast, sir, such respect for the election in which," so that it will read " a resitraditions and the precedents of the past, I should dent of the election district in which he offers his almost expect that my sacrilegious tongue would vote." cleave to the roof of my mouth, and my vandal Mr. LAPHAM-I offer this amendment for the right hand forget its cunning, if I dared thus to reason that from my own knowledge and expedisturb this ancient instrument, to which we were rience, under the words now embraced, which are sent here, at a thousand dollars per day, to pay the same as the present Constitution, a difficulty homage. [Laughter.] Sir, I trust gentlemen will often arises in determining for what portion of pause, will reflect, will at least view things from the officers to be chosen an elector may vote. I this stand-point, before they perpetrate such an desire by this amendment to accomplish the result, unconscionable innovation. to have the elector vote for every officer to be Mr, M. H. LAWRENCE-I hope the amendment chosen by the people, when his right to vote in of the gentleman from (attaraugus, [Mr. Van the election district exists, and to make the qualhCa; pen] will prevail. There are a large class of fication of thirty days' residence universal in the ministers of the gospel in the western part applicability to the right to vote for all officers. of tf state that have to make a change in their Mr. WAKEMAN-I would like to inquire 535 whthther that has reference to the election district where there are more than two districts in the town-the election district referred to, whether for the particular district in which the voter offers his vote. Mr. LAPHAM -He shall be a resident of the district in which he offers his vote. Mr. WAKEMAN-That will work a hardship in some of the towns of this State. In my own town we have three or four election districts, and often men change their residence from one side of the street to the other within thirty days. It seems to me that would be a hardship to apply to the election district, in case a man moves across the street. In my town one part of the electors vote on one side of the hall, and the other portion on the other side, and they often change their residence from one side of the road to the other within thirty days. Mr. KERNAN - At present, as it stands now, it prevents any attempt of affecting the election by changing the residence, because a man must be thirty days in the district in which the officer for which he votes is to be elected; but he must reside in an election district thirty days to vote at all; but if he must reside in an election district for thirty days to vote at all, all of which is in one assembly district, or any other official district, a man who changes his residence across the street (as a street very often divides an election district), loses the right to vote at all I can see no good in the amendment. I think it will often lead to hardship, and will unnecessarily deprive a man of his vote, and I hope it will not be adopted. Mr. GREELEY - This is a blow at the "repeaters," and I hope it will be struck homethe fellows who vote six, or eight, or ten times at an election. If they are compelled to live thirty days in an election district, the people will be very likely to know who they are. I protest against any facilities being granted to the men who take contracts to give ten or a dozen votes in any election district, and I trust this amendment will prevail. While it prevents one honest voter from voting, it will keep out half-adozen fraudulent votes. Men will calculate and say, "I cannot move across the street, because the election is coming on, and I must stay here." It is perfectly easy for men to keep thirty days in one district, and I trust we will advise them to do so by letting this motion now prevail. Mr. ROBERTSON —I propose to amend the amendment as follows: "Strike out the words "election district," and insert the words "town or ward." The question was put on the amendment of Mr. Robertson, and was declared lost. Mr. PRINDLE-I wish to propose an amendment of ten days instead of thirty. The question was put on the amendment of Mr. Prindle, and was declared lost. Mr. LAPHAM-If the Convention will pardon me, I would like to make a single suggestion. Mr. FOLGER —I rise to a point of order, that the gentleman has already spoken. The PRESIDENT -The point of order is well taken. Mr. McDONALD- I offer the following amendment: Strike out the word "and" in third line, and after the words "of the county" in fourth line, insert "and for the last ten days a resident of the election district." Mr. McDONALD - With regard to that amendment I have but one remark to make, and that is this: you have made several requirements for the voter. You require him to be one year in the State, and you require him to be in the county four months, and you have required him to be a naturalized citizen for ten days. What I ask is, that you give some time in which you can enforce the law. How are we to determine whether men are voters? It is not a pleasant thing to challenge a man at the polls when you do not know anything about'him. You ought to give us some time in which we can determine whether he is a voter or not. Mr. HARDENBURGH-Under your registry law he cannot vote in the election district unless he is registered. Mr. McDONALD-I ask this with regard to the registry law. Suppose a man comes from another part of the county, he is not registered until the last day, and we do not know anything about him, he comes into the election district on the morning of the election, and he is registered the day before and votes as often as he has a mind to. You thus have no chance to tell whether he is a voter or not. If you make the law, give the people a chance to enforce it. Mr. ALVORD- I rise to a point of order, that the Convention has passed upon the same proposition in the amendment of the gentleman from Onondaga [Mr. Andrews]. Mr. McDONALD - I will call the attention of the President to the fact that this amendmneit does not propose to strike out anything; it proposes simply another limitation. The Convention will see it is different from the amendmelt tbit has been offered. Mr. ALVORD-I insist on my point of order. The PRESIDENT-The point of order is well taken. Mi. C. C. DWIGHT-I rise to a point of order, that the proposition of the gentleman from Ontario [Mr. Lapham] was distinctly disposed of by the vote upon the amendment of the gentleman from Chenango [Mr. Prindle]. Mr. GREELEY-The proposition is not the same. It was then to limit to thirty days every. man in the district, but this is to require him to be four months in the county, and. also thirty days in the district. The PRESIDENT-The Chair understands the proposition to be a different one. Mr. W. C. BROWN-If it is in order, I will move to amend the amendment offered by the gentleman from Ontario [Mr. LaphamJ by substituting therefor the following: After the woids "resident of the" in line 8, insert the words "town or ward, and for ten days of the election district in which he offers his vote." Mr. LAPHAM-I accept that amendment. Mr. HARDENBURGH-It is now debatable. The PRESIDENT-The amendment is debatable, within the rule. Mr. HARDENBURGH-I am opposed to this amendmet. First, I am opposed to any amn 586 ment of this kind here, when we are about finally to pass upon this thing, placing in our Constitutio an article of this importance, when it is limited to a five minutes' debate and has been thoroughly discussed in Committee of the Whole, and when I know many of the gentlemen present are not thoroughly acquainted with the effect that such an amendment now incorporated into this section of the article will have. All the guards that are necessary to protect colonization of voters is ih that thirty days that they are to reside in the district in which the officer, for whom they cast their votes resides, or where he resides. That is, he is to be thirty days in the district in which the officer resides, or from which the officer is a representative. Now, in my town, where we have five election districts in a little town, and probably twenty-five election districts in the assembly district, for which we perhaps have to send an officer or an Assemblyman to Albany, and they are divided, as the gentleman from Onondaga [Mr. Kernan] says, by streets. Now, then, a nman moves across the street the day before election, into another election district. If he has not resided thirty days in the district in which he offers his vote, and which was, in the old Constitution, thirty days next preceding the election, a resident of the district from which the officer comes, he cannot vote under that restriction, and I can see no earthly reason for it, and you can scarcely conceive what an amount of injury will result from putting this in. It is no necessary guard, for you have it in the thirty days, and I am entirely opposed to it. If gentlemen will adopt, on a five minutes' discussion, this amendment; when you come, hereafter, to look at your article, you will find something that you will not be pleased with. Mr. YOUNG-I said yesterday in this Convention, in regard to the election of supervisors, the town in which I reside, like most other towns in that part of.the State, is divided into four or more election districts. The election for supervisors, and other town officers, occurs in the Spring, in most of these towns, shortly after moving time. Now, I ask any gentleman here to give me any reason why, if an elector moves from one election district across the street into another, he should be prohibited from voting for a supervisor of that town. I ask if there can be any fraud in permitting an elector from moving from one side of the street to the other, from one election district to the other in the same town, to vote for a supervisor or town officer of that town. Mr. LAPHAM-I would ask whether in a town election the town is not the district in which the person votes. Mr. YOUNG — That is a question which occurred to me. I think the phraseology of the amendment means election districts, and towns aremade up of a number of election districts, and I fail to see any reason why a man that has spent his whole life in one town, is not competent to vote for ay officer in that town; whether he lives in one election distrit or another election district of that town. Mr.VEEDER —As I understand the amend. e now proposed, it requires a residence of thirty days in a town or ward, and a residence of ten days in an election district. I am in favor of this proposition. In reply to the gentlemaa, in regard to the election of town officers at the spring election, I desire to state that the gentleman is very well aware that at those town meetings the whole of the electors of the town vote without regard to their residence in any particular election district. That is the way I regard it. Now, in regard to the proposition requiring a residence in an election district for thirty days to enable an elector to vote for any officer, I submit it is a hardship, for this reason. In our large cities many tenements are occupied, under agreements, from month to month, and it very often occurs that the landlords are enabled to secure an advanced rent, consequently they notify their tenants that their tenancy will expire in thirty days thereafter. This often may occur, and the tenants are obliged to leave the tenancy they occupy and move to some other election district. This change of residence is not of their own selection but is necessitated by the action of their landlord. Thus they would be compelled to lose their vote for every officer that may be upon the ticket. I shall oppose the original proposition. But if it be amended so as to require a residence for not more than ten days in the election district, I shall favor the amendment, yet I feel that ten days is even long enough a residence in the town or ward to entitle an elector to cast his vote for all officers. Mr. LOEW-,I move to amend the amendment as follows: Strike out the words "town or ward," and insert in lieu thereof the words "town, ward or city." Mr. LOEW-I really do not see why a party should not be entitled to vote if he moves out of the ward-why he should not be entitled to vote for supervisor or mayor that runs throughout the whole city. The question was then put on the amendment of Mr. Loew, and it was declared lost. The question was then put upon the amendment of Mr. Lapham as amended, and it was declared carried by the following vote: Ayes- Messrs. A. F. Allen, C. L. Allen, N. M. Allen, Andrews, Archer, Armstrong, Axtell, Barker, Barnard, Beadle, Beals, Beckwith, Bell, Bergen, Bickford, Bowen, E. P. Brooks, E. A. Brown, W. C. Brown, Carpenter, Case, Cheritree, Clark, Clinton, Cooke, Corbett, Curtis, Duganne, T. W. Dwight, Eddy, Ely, Endress, Farnum, Ferry, Field, Flagler, Folger, Francis, Frank, Fuller, Goodrich, Gould, Grant, Graves, Greeley, Gross, Hadley, Hammond, Hand, Harris, Hiscock, Houstqn, Huntington, Hutchins, Kinney, Krum, Landon, Lapham, A. Lawrence, M. H. Lawrence, Lee, Lowrey, Ludington, McDonald, Merrill, MerIitt, Merwin, Miller, Murphy, Opdyke, Pond, President, Prindle, Prosser, Rathbun, Reynolds, Rolfe, Root, Rumsey, Schoonmaker, Schumaker, Silvester, Sheldon, Sherman, Smith, Spencer, Stratton, M. I. Townsend, Van Campen, Van Cott. Veeder, Wakeman, Wales, Williams- 94. Noes- Messrs. Alvord, Ballard, Barto, E. Brooks, Burrill, Cassidy, Champlain, Chesebro, |Church, Cochran, Comstock, Conger, Corning, C. 537 C. Dwight, Evarts, Fowler, Fullerton, Garvin, Hardenburgh, Hatch, Hitchcock, Hitchman, Jarvis, Kernan, Larremore, Law, A. R. Lawrence, Livingston, Loew, Magee, Masten, Mattice, Monell, More, Morris, Nelson, Paige, A. J. Parker, Potter, Robertson, Roy, A. D. Russell, Schell, Seaver, Seymour, Tappen, S. Townsend, Tucker, Verplanck, Weed, Wickham, Young - 52. Mr. CURTIS-I offer the following amendment; In the first line strike out the word "male," and wherever in the section the word "he" occurs, add "or she;" and wherever the word "his " occurs, add the words " or her." Mr. CURTIS - On this, sir, I ask the ayes and noes. Mr. GRAVES -Are amendments in order? The PRESIDENT -Amendments are in order. Mr. GRAVES ' I offer the following amendment: " And all women of lawful age of like citizenship may vote for the same officers, if at an election to be held on the first Tuesday in June, 1868, at which women alone over the age of twentyone years shall vote, a majority of all the votes given shall be in favor of exercising the elective franchise." Mr. HAND-Can that be admitted under the rule? The PRESIDENT-The Chair sees no objection to it. Mr. BICKFORD-I rise to a point of order, that that is a resolution which requires a separate submission. The PRESIDENT-The Chair would inquire of the gentleman from Herkimer [Mr. Graves] whether this is the same proposition which was ruled out yesterday, in Committee of the Whole. Mr. GRAVES-It is. The PRESIDENT-I would say, with all due deference to the opinion of the chairman of the committee, that I understand this to be a proposition to be inserted in the body of the Constitution, and it will be wholly inoperative unless, after the adoption of the Constution, an election shall be had and a vote taken, as provided by this. I think it is in no case a separate submission. Mr. GRAVES-I ask the ayes and noes on that proposition. A sufficient number seconding the call, the ayes and noes were ordered. Mr. GREELEY-I have not been allowed a hearing in this case. I desire to say a word. The Committee on Suffrage considered this whole matter deliberately, and decided to enfranchise black men, and not to enfranchise women, because black men want to be enfranchised and women do not. If any man doubts this, let him ask the next twenty black men he meets and the next twenty women, indifferently, and he will be assured of its truth. I object to this proposition, because it compels women to vote in order to avoid voting I am willing the question of black suffrage should be submitted to black men, and let all that do not vote count in the negative; and so in regard to women. I am in favor of such a submission. Let the women who do not choose to vote abstain from voting, and, by abstaining, affirm their desire not to have the right of suffrage extended to 68 them. I believe in the principle that "tgoverments derive their just powers from the conset of the governed;" and whenever the women of this State shall say that they desire the right to vote, I am in favor of conceding it. I do not believe it will be wise in them so to indicate; I do not believe that one.tenth of our women desire to exercise the right of suffrage; and I think all these propositions inapplicable to the existing state of facts. Whenever the women shall choose to exert a decided influence in politics - at I hope they may-I want them to act as women, not as persons. I wish the women of this State to be heard as women, and not to be mixed up with and commingled with men in caucuses, on nominating committees, and at the polls, but allowed to have their views heard as the women of the State. I would be very willing to commit to them all questions connected with the domestic relations-with marriage, separation, and divorce, and all questions touching the care of families, of inheritance, and of dower; but the proposition does not come before us in such shape as to commend itself to the women of the State; and, when they shall be heard, as I trust they may choose to be heard, let them be heard as women. If they are ever to exercise the elective franchise, let them meet as women, and elect delegates as women, and have Legislatures or Conventions to whichi only women shall be admitted, either as spectators or officers; and let them therein state their wishes in regard to the legislation of the State. I am sure they will be heard. I am very sure they will be heard as women; but this demand for a common right with men is the voice of a very few women; and the claim that they act for women I repu. diate. The gentleman who offered the last proposition, asked how the Committee on Suffrage acted thereon. I have had no opportunity to answer him until now. When he made that proposition, the lady who leads this woman's rights movement, Mrs. Stanton, at once protested against it, and said she would have no appeal to women-would not allow women to vote on the question-but insisted on our adopting her proposition, pure and simple, that women should be treated as all men are treated. When the eloquent gentleman from Richmond [Mr. Curtis] spoke for women, he pointed to Queen Elizabeth as having been a great sovereign. Did Queen Elizabeth select a Cabinet, or did she call a Parliament, of men and women indiscriminately? I appeal to all the female rulers, from Semiramis to Victoria-to the Empress Catharine of Russia, to Maria Theresa of Austria. Not one of these reat women has ever proposed the commingling of men and women in legislation or governments. Mr. GRAVES -I have endeavored to speak at length upon this subject, and in presenting the amendment which I offered to-day, owing to the peculiar condition of this Convention I have not been able to present this amendment, so that it should meet with appropriate consideration. Yesterday, under the rule made by the Chair, I was prevented from discussing the question. Sir, it is the very question to which the gentlemant objected who has just fat down, that I desire to call the attention of this Convention to. It I said 538 by many, that the women do not desire to vote, that it is only a few of what are called strongminded women, that desire to exercise the elective franchise. I desire to submit the question to the women alone, to let them determine whether they do desire to exercise the elective franchise or not, and I desire to do it upon this amendment. I have never regarded the right to exercise the elective franchise as existing in men rather than women; I hold the right of one to vote just as old as the right of the other, and if at the organization of our government, our revolutionary mothers had desired to exercise the right of going to the ballot-box and voting, or of aiding in the enactment of any laws which were instituted for the purpose of re-organizing our government; there was no law, there was no code, civil or divine, which would have prevented the mothers from going to the ballot-box, or of assisting in framing the laws. But that right has been assumed by men, and quietly acquiesced in by the women. Women have permitted the men to make the laws and vote upon all important questions, and now I ask because the women in that peculiar condition of the country when the population was sparse, and when the country was poor and their wants small and easily satisfied, because they consented that men should exercise all the law-making powers and the elective franchise, and because they quietly acquiesced in that, is it any reason, in the present condition of our country, that they do not desire to exercise the elective franchise now. That is the question I desire to submit to them. They know that by the change in the condition of our country they have acquired a power and an influence to be felt, and their improved position in society is of such a character that it has become important for the I perpetuity of our government, that their influence as citizens may be the means of sustaining a government that seems to be fading away under the immoral influences that surround it. It is quite important. Why is it, I ask, that the fathers to-day are educating their daughters, believing it is important to give the daughters just as good an education as the sons, for the ordinary duties of life? Does it disqualify a woman for the exercise of all the domestic relations, for all the kind, sympathetic properties of her nature, because she is educated equally now with the male sex? Does it render her less fit for all the domestic relations and agreeable duties that surround her? Certainly not. And because she is educated in all the substantial sciences so important to her as S woman, does it disqualify her for any of these cocial relations? Let the question be put to them. The gentleman says the women do not want to vote. He is mistaken. This has never been discussed between the women in sober earnestness; they never have examined the question for themselves. Their husbands and those who have desied red to retain power and influence, har-e advised them that they do not desire to exercise this power, but let them examine it themselves, and you will find ninety-e out of every hundred at the ballotbox voting either in favor of exercising the elective franchise or against it, and with that result certinly. we ought to be satisfied. Mr, iGOtLD-I think it must be very obvious to the Convention that this proposition is exceedingly crude. What is a woman? Isa girl of eighteen years of age a woman? We have no law regulating what a woman is. We have no law regulating whether an Indian woman or a foreign woman who happens to be in the country, may vote or not. There is no legal provision here that surrounds this thing, and the amendment is so strong that if only ten women in the State vote upon the resolution that the gentleman has offered, and six of them vote in favor and the others against it, the thing is carried. The gentleman must see how exceedingly absurd would be the result which would follow from the adoption of his resolution. He says the subject has not been discussed among the women. It is a most extraordinary assertion. It has been discussed among them, and discussed for a long time, and the women of the State are opposed to this matter. When we see that the true womanhood of the State will not vote on the question at all, and when only the looser portions of the community will vote upon it, I think gentlemen must see that the whole proposition is fraught with mischief and danger. I hope that no gentleman here will be weak enough to vote upon a question of this kind, unless some very much greater safeguards are thrown around it. The question was then put on the amendment of Mr. Graves, and it was declared lost by the following vote: Ayes-Messrs. Barto, Beals, Eddy, Farnum, Fowler, Graves, Hammond, M. H. Lawrenco, Seaver-9. Noes-Messrs. A. F. Allen, C. L. Allen, N. M. Allen. Alvord, Andrews, Archer, Armstrong, Axtell, Baker, Ballard, Barker, Barnard, Beadle, Beckwith, Bell, Bergen, Bickford, Bowen, E, Brooks, E. P. Brooks, E. A. Brown, W. C. Brown, Burrill, Carpenter, Case, Cassidy, Champlain, Cheritree, Chesebro, Church,. Clark, Clinton, Cochran, Colahan, Comstock, Conger, Cooke, Corbett, Corning, Curtis, C. C. Dwight, T. W. Dwight, Ely, Endress, Evarts, Ferry, Field, Flagler, Folger, Francis, Frank, Fuller, Fullerton Garvin, Goodrich, Gould, Grant, Greeley, Gross Hadley, Hand, Harris, Hiscock, Hitchcock, Hitchman, Houston, Huntington, Hutchins, Jarvis, Kernan, Ketcham, Kinney, Krum, Landon, Lapham, Larremore, Law, A. Lawrence, A. R. Lawrence, Lee, Livingston, Loew, Lowrey, Ludington, Magee, Masten, Mattice, McDonald, Merrill, Merritt, Merwin, Miller, More, Morris, Murphy, Nelson, Opdyke, Paige, A. J. Parker, Pond, President, Prindle, Rathbun, Reynolds, Robertson, Rogers, Rolfe, Root, Roy, Rumsey, A. D. Russell, Schoonmaker, Schumaker, Seymour, Silvester, Sheldon, Sherman, Smith, Spencer, Stratton, Tappen, M. I. Townsend, S. Townsend, Tucker, Van Campen, Van Cott, Veeder, Verplanck, Wakeman, Wales, Weed, Wickham, Williams, Young-133. Mr. MORE-I offer the following amendment, to be added to the amendment of Mr. Curtis. "This proviso shall not apply to women of color." The' question was put' on the amendment of Mr. More, and it was declared to be lost. Mr. MERRITT-A few days since I defined my position upon the question of female suffrage, 539 I then stated, that I now believe it inexpedient to has rung with the eloquence of gentlemen who make the change proposed by the Constitution have celebrated the charms, the delicacy, the which it is proposed to submit. I shall favor any softness, the superiority, the high and holy misproposition having in view a submission of the sion of women, and yet logically they all insist question to the electors, at such time in the future that women will not fulfill their high and holy as will give full time for discussion before the mission; that woman will not remain a woman, people, when the decision shall not be embarrassed but insist upon plunging into what is called the by other and different propositions. With my foul pool of politics, unless we insist*upon conpresent views, I should at such election favor and tinuing this political disability. Gentlemen, one vote for such an extension of the right of suffrage. after the other, have arisen here and made eloBut on the pending motion, to make the change quent appeals in favor of the loveliness of woman, in the article now before the Convention, I shall but have arrived at the most disastrous conclusion. be constrained to vote against it. I think it was Shenstone who described the polite Mr. CURTIS-The'chairman of the committee, debtor who showed his creditors down stairs so the honorable gentleman from Westchester [Mr. gracefully: "He kicked them down stairs with such Greeley] says he has no evidence that the a sweet grace, that you would think he was handwomen of this State desire the franchise: I will ing them out," and so here it has been with gentlepoint the honorable gentleman, and his friends men who oppose this motion. They have pleaded in this Convention, who are so anxious to extend the instincts of man. The instincts of man are pleadthe franchise to a certain class of the population, ed against every amelioration of the laws that have that they have not in this Convention, at least, oppressed woman. Those gentlemen who have presented themselves by petition, whereas I have frothed and foamed at the mouth with complihad the pleasure of presenting the petitions of ments to woman, let me remind those gentlemen, more than one thousand persons of the adult that the literature of England was the most lavish in population of this State, being women, who do its compliments to women at the time that the desire the extension of this franchise. He also laws of England were brutal and disgraceful, by speaks of Queen Elizabeth: well, sir, Queen Eliza- the confession of the law makers. Instinct, sirbeth's will was the government of England; and instinct is the name under which every prejudice at the most crucial moment of her life, when the masks itself. 'Nobody knows better than myhonquestion was whether she should marry the orable friend from Westchester [Mr. Greeley], French Prince, after all her courtiers and that the long time opposition to the right of the black admirers, Essex, Walsingham and all her great men in this country has been what was called an advisers had plead against the match, it was only instinct. Within a day or two, I have seen an by a letter from a gentleman not connected, as illustration of that, almost in the precincts of this we may say, with her government at all, that her hall, which I believe prefigures the action, if not will was changed, and her will was the law of in this Convention, yet very soon in this State. England. The proposition that is pending by I was coming from my residence on the north slope my amendment is not to force a single woman in of the Capitol hill, and was passing what is called this State to do anything she does not wish to. the reservoir around which is a high wall.. It is simply to remove the disability from women Upon that wall were two little Irish to-day. Women to-day go into the auction children playing, and upon the sidewalk at room, women go into the stock exchange, and its foot was a little black child of the same age. she may plead her own cause in court if she The two children upon the wall were elated with chooses, and all that I ask is that the disability their position, and the little "image of God in which now rests upon her may be removed-a ebony" as old Fuller has it, looked up with disability the scope of which was described by his smiling, merry face and said, " lift me up! my friend from Richmond [Mr. Brooks], when he lift me up! " Sir, these young Irishmen had not said that not to grant suffrage is a punishment, been manipulated by the politicians of this country; and to deprive fifty thousand Union deserters of they had not been taught that there was an inthe franchise was practically to banish them from stinct which separates the white from the black, the State; and I ask, not that one single woman, and one of them giving his hand to his fellow, but that all the intelligent women who may wish reached down and took the hand of the little black to exercise the same right shall not be debarred. child, and instantly he was by the side of the other If no woman wishes to do that thing, why then children on 'the wall. The motto of the women will refrain, and the whole force of the State is "Excelsior," and I see in these little chilarguments which have been adduced against the dren, who will one day become citizens, the inspiproposition I had the honor to submit reduce them- ration of the great feeling that underlies that selves to two, namely, that it is inconsistent with motto, and sir, I am disposed to go 0beyond my the female sex, and that it will subvert the family. prophecy of the other day, and say that there are In regard to the functions of the sex, as I said the many of us living who will see the class, who are other afternoon, we deprive ourselves of knowing privileged in this State now, stoop down to raisa what its just limits are, so long as we assume arbi- every other class to the same height. I ask for trarily to coerce it. In regard to the subversion of the ayes and noes on this motion. the family and her disregard of the functions and Mr. E. BROOKS-Sir, I am opposed to the duties of her sex, nothing can be plainer than if amendment of my colleague [Mr. Curtis], and it is a woman is not a woman by the instincts of her because, to use his own illustration, I desire to nature and by the natural laws of her sex, all lift up the women of this State, that I oppose the disabilities that may be heaped upon her by it. I do not believe that by the adoption of man will not keep her a woman. This chamber this amendment you will secure heir mral, their 540 soial, or in any way their soal elevation. There are 750,000 adult women in the State of New York, and it is proposed by one fell swoop or blow to intrust these 150,000 women with the grave privilege of the franchise. Sir, I have said once before during this discussion, that we live in a progressive age, and this is but another evidence of the fact. We live in a sort of transcendental age, when men are disposed to break up, disturb and overthrow all those landmarks of society upon which our government and society have rested since its formation. I am unwilling to make this innovation. I see in measures like these, and other measures which meet with more favor in this Convention, a disposition to disturb those solemn and sacred relations of society which have been our security during the past, and which are our only sure hope in the future. The 750,000 women, and that class of colored people to whom the franchise may soon be given, now number seven-twelfths of the entire population of the State of New York, and it is proposed to extend this franchise to this large class of people; not, sir, to secure any natural right, moral right or social right which now belongs to the female sex, but in order to cultivate, or rather to pander to that feeling of excitement and revolution incident to the age in which we live. Sir, this is a great age of unrest, for I can find no other word to express the idea I wish to convey to this Convention; an age in which society is disturbed and States disturbed, and in my judgment he is the best and truest statesman, and the best friend of mankind, who will do all in his power to restore the whole people to those social, political and solid relations under which this government of ours was formed. The ambition on the part of certain women, and of a very few women, propose this great change in our political and social life. Sir, there are in this Convention one hundred and sixty household gods, so to speak representing our homes and firesides. All these are represented by us in our respective heads of families. How many of these homes, how many of our wives and daughters and sisters desire to be intrusted with this right of franchise. In my judgment if you analyze this Convention not one-twentieth part of its members nor one-twentieth part of these t50,000 adult women in the State of New York, probably not twenty thousand, desire that the franchise shall be thus given; and even if it should be granted it would make such a revolution in the politics of this State, as would lead many who now desire to give the 'franchise to this class of people to repent of the act all the days of their lives. We have been agitating this question and kindred questions year after year, and what is the effect upon society? The gentleman from Columbia [Mr. Gould] stated what the effect was upon certain women of the State when he said there was twenty years ago in our count jails but one women in twelve, whereas within the two years past upon an examination of the same State jails, there were four women ut of evey tweve persons. In the increase of crie sr, if we will see the truth as it is, and speak the truth as it is, every man must admit that e are passing from bad to worse. But wtile-we are t5 i of pmgress here, society wa never so much demoralized as it is during this, the year of our Lord, 1867, and it was never more demoralized in the old world, I am sorry to say, than in the new. Every man sees this in the great increase of crime, in the corruption of our public officesHere the gavel fell, the gentleman's time having expired. The question was then put upon the amendment of Mr. Curtis, and declared lost by the following vote: Ayes —Messrs. Beals, Bell, Corning, Curtis, Duganne, Farnum, Field, Folger, Fowler, Graves, Hadley, Hammond, Kinney, Lapham, M. H. Lawrence, Pond, Tucker, Veeder, Wales — 19. Noes- Messrs. A. F. Allen, C. L. Allen, N. M. Allen, Alvord, Andrews, Archer, Armstrong, Axtell, Ballard, Barker, Barnard, Beadle, Beckwith, Bergen, Bickford, Bowen, E. Brooks, E. P. Brooks, E. A. Brown, W. C. Brown, Burrill, Carpenter, Case, Cassidy, Champlain, Cheritree, Chesebro, Church, Clark, Clinton, Cochran, Colahan, Comstock, Conger, Cooke, Corbett, C. C. Dwight, T. W. Dwight, Eddy, Ely, Endress, Evarts, Ferry, Flagler, Francis, Frank, Fuller, Fullerton, Garvin. Goodrich, Gould, Grant, Greeley, Gross, Hand, Harris, Hatch, Hiscock, Hitchcock, Hitchman, Houston, Huntington, Hutchins, Jarvis, Kernan, Krum, Landon, Larremore, Law, A. Lawrence,A. R. Lawrence, Lee, Livingston, Loew, Lowrey, Ludington, Magee,Masten, Mattice, McDonald, Merrill, Merritt, Merwin, Miller, Monell, More, Morris, Murphy, Nelson, Opdyke, Paige, A. J. Parker, Potter, President, Prindle, Prosser, Rathbur, Reynolds, Robertson, Rogers, Rolfe, Root, Roy, Rumsey, A. D. Russell, Schell, Schoonmaker, Seaver, Seymour, Silvester, Sheldon, Sherman, Smith, Spencer, Stratton, Tappen, M. I. Townsend, S. Townsend, Van Campen, Van Cott, Verplanck, Wakeman, Weed, Wickham, Williams -125. Mr. MORRIS -I move that the Convention take a recess until four o'clock. The question was put on the motion of Mr. Morris, and declared carried. So the Convention took a recess until four o'clock. AFTERNOON SESSION. The Convention re-assembled at four o'clock and resumed the consideration of the report of the Committee on the Right of Suffrage and the Qualifications to Hold Office, as reported from the Committee of the Whole. Mr. BICKFORD - I move to strike out of the first line of section one the words " twenty-one," and insert in lieu thereof the word " eighteen." The object of the amendment is, of course, to grant to all persons of the age of eighteen years the right to vote on the same terms as others; in other words, to alter the age at which men shall become entitled to exercise the elective franchise from twenty-one to eighteen. It differs very materially from the amendment which I offered in Committee of the Whole, which included only those persons born in this State, and who also had always resided in this State, who had attained the.age of eighteen years. I will not repeat the arguments I advanced yesterday in favor of allowing that 541 class of persons to vote; but I would mention at men who have just passed the age of eighteen years this time some other reasons which I did not then -and reached a fresh manhood-who are vigor. allude to, why this amendment should be adopted. ous in all of the physical development of man and Under the Roman republic, the citizens of that who are capable of conducting to a successful republic were admitted to the elective franchise at conclusion all the pursuits of private life in the age of seventeen years. At that age the which men engage. Such men may, therefore, republic acknowledged the manhood of its male be safely intrusted with the duty of contributing, citizens, and it admitted them to a share in the by their votes, to the election of persons who, in government. It was a most wise provision, and a representative capacity, are to exercise the under it the Roman republic speedily became the functions of government. I have before endeavmistress of the world, arising from the fact that ored to contrast colored men of twenty-one she had recognized the manhood of the citizen the years with the Caucasian of eighteen, moment that manhood was developed, I say sho and while I differ from friends of mine became the mistress of the world as she deserved in regard to the disabilities which ought to be. Now contrast, if you please, with that in- to exclude the colored race from an introstance in history others which may be mentioned. duction at present into the management of the In thiscountry —theUnited States —theageatwhich affairs of the country, I would simply state that a person attains to full rights of citizenship is uni- my view in regard to them is, that they are defiformly fixed at twenty-one years in -accordance cient in that which constitutes the main strength with European traditions, with the exception of of a State, and that is the thrift, energy and foreone State, namely, the State of Delaware, where sight of every citizen, and therefore I have enterthe age is fixed at twenty-two years. Now, sir, tained the conviction that they should earn the the State of Delaware is, I believe, popularly distinction of the privilege of voting by acquiring called the "Blue Hen's Chicken." This refusal on tho sum of two hundred and fifty dollars, and, her part to acknowledge the manhood of her citi- having acquired it, should have invested it in zens when it has been developed, is probably one such a way as it should be known to the whole reason among others why Delaware has always community that they had acquired it, and that is remained a chicken. In order to develop and in real estate, so as to establish that they were bring to bear all the resources of a State, it is exceptions to the general carelessness and recknecessary that all the men of the State should be lessness of their race, in regard to provision recognized as men. We expect from a man of for the future. I ask every gentleman preseighteen years that he will perform the functions ent who is willing to vote for the destruction of a man. Such are required to do military duty, of the property qualification for the negro race, to stand the draft and to go to war to defend the whether they would not sooner intrust matters liberties of the country, the same as those who of great moment to young men of the Caucasian are older; they are of the age to make the most race of eighteen years of age of the ordinary inimportant contract of life, namely, that of mar- teligence of our young men of that age, to manriage, and to do many other important things, age, rather than to men of African descent of the and, sir, it is but just and right of us to acknowl- age of twentv-one, of the average caution and inedge the fact that this class of persons are men, telligence of that race? and if they would do so, and we should not only require them- [Here the whether they would not sooner trust to those gavel fell, the five minutes having expired]. Mr. young men of eighteen years the privilege of sufPresident, I ask the ayes and noes on my amend- frage than they would colored men of the age of ment. twenty-one? Mr. Chairman, I call for the ayes Mr. ROBERTSON-I shall not weary the Con- and noes. vention with any repetition or even an allusion to A sufficient number seconding the call, the the arguments which I adduced yesterday in ayes and noes were ordered. favor of the change now proposed. I am satis- The question was then put on the amendment fled, upon mature reflection that the members of of Mr. Bickford and it was lost by the following the Convention must be convinced that those who vote: engage in all the active business of life, with the Ayes-Messrs. Baker, Bickford, E. Brooks, intelligence which men ordinarily show, who Burrill, Chesebro, Church, Duganne, Farnum, undertake the charge of a family, who undertake Field, Hammond, Hardenburgh, Jarvis, Krum, the instruction of youth, who undertake the vari- A. R. Lawrence, Loew, Masten, Monell, More, ous branches of industry and control the direc- Morris, Pond, Robertson, Tappen, Tucker, Veedew tion of the minds and labors of others, are emi- Verplanck, Weed-26. nently qualified for the exercise of the right of Noes-Messrs. A. F. Allen, C. L. Allen, N. M. suffrage. I shall, therefore, make no apology Allen, Alvord, Andrews, Archer, Axtell, Ballard, for urging upon this Convention the adop- Barker, Barnard, Barto, Beadle, Beals, Beckwith, tion of this change. It is very evident, Bergen, Bowen, E. A. Brown, W. C. Brown, Carfrom what has been said in this Convention on penter, Cassidy, Champlain, Cheritree, Clinton, the various questions that have come before it, Cochran, Colahan, Comstock, Conger, Corbett, that it needs the introduction of some pure vital Corning, Curtis, Daly, C. C. Dwight, T. W. Dight, blood into the veins of the political Constitution Eddy, Ely, Endress, Evarts, Ferry, Flgler, Folof this State, for the purpose of redeeming it ger, Fowler, Francis, Frank, Fuller, pulleon, from the universal charge of corruption in high Garvin, Goodrich, Gould, Grant, Graves, Greeley, places which has been reiterated here, and I Gross, Hadley, Harris, Hiscock, Hitchman, Honknow of no better way of introducing that into ton, Huntington, Kernan, Kinney, handi, it tha by admitting to citizenship those young Iaphan, Laremore, A. Lawrece, M... aw; 542 rence, Lee, Livingston, Lowrey, Ludington, W. Dwight, Eddy, Ely, Endress, Evarts, Farnum. Magee, Mattice, McDonald, Merrill, Merritt, Mer- Ferry, Field, Flagler, Folger, Fowler, Francis, win, Miller, Opdyke, Paige, A. J. Parker, Potter, Frank, Fuller, Goodrich, Gould, Grant, Graves, President, Prindle, Prosser, Rathbun, Reynolds, Greeley, Gross, Hadley, Hammond, Harris, HisRolfe, Root, Roy, Rumsey, A. D. Russell, Schell, cock, Hitchcock, Houston, Huntington, Hutchins, Seaver, Seymour, Silvester, Sheldon, Sherman, Kinney, Krum, Landon, Lapham, A. Lawrence, Smith, Spencer, M. I. Townsend, S. Townsend, M. H. Lawrence, Lee, Ludington, McDonald, MerVan Campen. Van Cott, Wakeman, Wales, Wick' rill, Merritt, Merwin, Miller, Opdyke, Paige, Pond, ham, Williams-106. President, Prindle, Prosser, Rathbun, Reynolds, Mr. CASSIDY-I offer the amendment which I Rolfe, Root, Rumsey, Seaver, Seymour, Silvester, offered in the Committee of the Whole. Sheldon, Sherman, Smith, Spencer, M. I. TownThe SECRETARY proceeded to read the amend- send, Van Campen, Van Cott, Wakeman, Wales, inent, as follows: Williams-94. Add to the section the following: Mr. T. W. DWIGHT-I offer this amendment: This section shall not apply to any man of color The SECRETARY proceeded to read the amendwho shall not be an actual resident of this State, ment, as follows: at the time when this Constitution shall go into In the first line insert after the word "citizen," operation, unless such man of color, at the time the words "of the United States," so that it will when he may offer his vote, shall have been for read, " evry male citizen of the United States of five years immediately preceding, an actual resi- the age of twenty-one years, who shall have been dent of the State. for ten days a citizen," etc. Mr. CASSIDY-The object of this amendment Mr. T. W. DWIGHT -The reason why I offer is not to require of any of the present colored this amendment is that I think it is desirable that population of the State of New York, but the fu- we should fix in this Constitution the fact that ture colored population, the same conditions that citizens of the United States are entitled to sufare exacted of foreign born citizens. 1 desire to frage. Now the mode, as I understand it, in say nothing in advocacy of this amendment for which, practically, a person becomes a citizen of a it speaks for itself. Whatever of equity or pro- State is through citizenship of the United States, priety there is in it will be apparent on the mere and that may be either through birth or naturaliface of the statement. I desire to say, however, zation. The only objection I have heard urged to on this occasion, in reference to my vote the insertion of this clause is a dictum in the Dred on the question of suffrage for women, Scott case, in which it has been thought that there that it was controlled by the consideration, was'something said by the court adverse to the colthat under the ruling of the chairman of the Com- ored man having a citizenship of the United States. mittee of the Whole, the question was not in a But, if I remember that decision, the precise point shape to be submitted separately. Whenever decided was that the colored man was not a citithose who have charge of that measure shall place zen of a State, and that was the only point that it in a shape where it may be submitted to the was really decided in the case. Scott brought an popular vote, I shall redeem the pledge I made in action against Sandford, in the United States the early part of the debates on this subject, and Court, in the District of Missouri, for his freedom, vote for such submission. I call for the ayes and on the ground that he could sue in that noes on my amendment. court, being a citizen of one State suing a citizen A sufficient number seconding the call, the of another State, in accordance with the well ayes and noes were ordered. known provision in the United States ConThe question was then put on the amendment stitution. The court decided that he could not of Mr. Cassidy, and the Secretary proceeded with sue on that ground for he was not a citizen of the call a State. There is no decision that the colored The name of Mr. Masten was called. man cannot be a citizen of the United States, nor Mr. MASTEN —Mr. President, as this amend- is there likely to be one, because Chief Justice ment is to affect the colored gentleman, it is within Taney pronounced that decision on the theory that the agreement I made with Judge Ketchum, and the colored man was degraded. But that has been I ask to be excused from voting. changed by the war, and no court will in my opinThe amendment of Mr. Cassidy was lost by the ion ever decide that a colored man is not a citizen following vote: of the United States. If I understand the proviAyes-Messrs. Bergen, E. Brooks, Burrill, Cas- sions of the civil rights bill, it was one of its obsidy, Champlain, Chesebro, Church, Cochran, Col- jects to establish the citizenship of the negro. I ahan, omstock, Corning, Garvin, Hardenburgh, am unwilling that the Convention by striking out itchman, Jarvis, Kernan, Larremore, A. R. the clause reported by the committee shall indorse Lawrence, Livingston, Loew, Lowrey, Magee, the idea that a colored man cannot be a citizen of Mattice, Monell, More, Morris, Murphy Nelson, the United States. More than this, I desire that A. J. Parker, Potter, Robertson, A. D. Russell, this clause be inserted, as we thereby recognize Schell, Tappen, Tucker, Veeder, Verplanck, our paramount allegiance to the United States, and Wicham-38. repudiate the doctrine of State rights. For these Noes-Messrs. A. F. Allen, C. L. Allen, N. M. reasons I am desirous that this amendment should Allen; Alvord, Andrews, Archer, Axtell, Baker, prevail. Ball Barer, Barnard, Beadle, Beals, Beck- Mr. ANDREWS-As I understand the decision ith, Bell, Bickford, Bowen, E. A. Brown, W.. in the Dred Scott case, referred to by the gentlerow, Carpenter, Case, Cheritree, Clark, Clinton, man from Oneida [Mr. T. W. Dwight], it was derbet, Curtis, Daly, Dugann, C C. Dwight, T cided by the court, and in that decisin to some 543 extent Justice Curtis (who dissented from the judgment of the court) concurred that a colored man was not, within the meaning of the Constitution, a citizen of the United States. And, sir, as I understand the law to be, it is entirely Well settled that, although the State surrendered to the general government the power over naturalization so that aliens naturalized;pursuant to the law of Congress become citizens of the United States, that nevertheless, as to all other classes of persons, those were citizens of the United States only who were citizens of any individual State, and that the test by which you are to determine who are citizens of the United States in the present state of judicial authority is to determine who are citizens of a State. Now, as showing that the gentleman upon the other side [Mr. T. W. Dwight] is mistaken when he claimed that it was held by the Supreme Court of the United States that a colored man was not a citizen of a State, but that the court did not decide that such a person could not be a citizen of the United States, I beg leave to refer to a few sentences of the prevailing opinion in that case. Judge Taney says: "The words 'people of the United States' and 'citizens' are synonymous terms, and mean the same thing. They both describe the political body who, according to our republican institutions, form the sovereignty, and who hold the power and conduct the government through their representatives. They are what we familiarly call the ' sovereign people,' and every citizen is one of this people, and a constituent member of this sovereignty. The question before us is, whether the class of persons described in the plea in abatement compose a portion of this people, and are constituent members of this sovereignty. We think they are not, and that they are not included, and were not intended to be included, under the word 'citizens,' in the Constitution, and can therefore claim none of the rights and privileges which that instrument provides for and secures to citizens of the United States." And, sir, in respect to the other point to which I adverted, that doubt had been entertained, as to the power of Congress to declare and determine who should be citizens of the United States, I beg leave to refer for a moment to the dissenting opinion of Mr. Justice Curtis in the same case. He goes on to state that the only power granted to Congress is the power to establish a uniform rule of naturalization, and then he says: "It appears, then, that the only power expressly granted to Congress to legislate concerning citizenship, is confined to the removal of the disabilites of foreign birth." And it was upon the strength of this opinion that tho civil rights bill —which undertook to declare, through an act of Congress, that all persons born upon the soil shall be citizens of the United States - has been questioned, and, as I, stated the other day, one of the objects of the pending amendment to the Constitution is to remove this doubt. Mr. T. W. DWIGHT —Can I say a word in explanation? The PRESIDENT-The Chair cannot permitan infraction of the rule without unanimous consent. Mr. DUGANNE-If there were any one reason more than another which should impel me to vote for this amendment, it would be to set at rest as far as our Constitution can, the "prevailing opinion" which the gentleman from Onondaga [Mr. Andrews] quotes, but which I consider the pestilent heresy, that would put the sovereignty of the State above the sovereignty of the nation. I have nothing to do with the opinions of gentlemen who derive the authority of our Federal Government from any State sovereignty, nor do I believe in the assumption of any State which claims State rights as belonging to it, or any State claiming that right. It was that claim which lay at the bottom of our struggles during the last twenty years. It was that which gave us a war, and it is that which must always be an embroiling subject, unless we can settle it by the acknowledgment, on the part of States, of their dependency, as States, in subordination to the nationality. I, therefore, shall vote for this amendment, because I deem it proper that it should enter into the organic law of our State. Mr. RATHBUN - By looking at the Constitution of 1846 it will be seen that the term "citizen of the United States" is not to be found there and that the term citizen of the State of New York is there. Can any man conceive of any good reason except to take a shot at the Dred Scott decision, or something else, for putting in words that have never been there before? Is it worth while to be voting upon such a question and to impose unnecessary words upon the Constitution, which have not been there for the last twenty years, and I am told by members near me, hdve never been there and which never need be,: and for this reason, that any man in the State of New York may be made an elector as the Constitution and the laws of the State shall determine. It does not depend at all upon the question, whether he is a citizen of the United States or not. That has nothing to do with it. It depends.upon the Constitution of the State alone. Now, if you look at the Western States, it is notorious that they have been in the habit for many years of allowing aliens to vote after a residence of a single year. Why? Because they were citizens, or were regarded so, of the State, and by the Constitution and laws of those States, they were authorized to exercise the elective franchise. If they have a right to make such a provision there, we have a right to. do it here. They have done it and we have done it-that is we have allowed men to vote without at all requiring that they should be citizens of the United States. It is a matter wholly immaterial, therefore, in my judgment, and the proposition should not be inserted in the Constitution. The question was then put on the amendment of Mr. T. W. Dwight, and it was declared lost. Mr. CHAMPLAINT-I offer this amendment: The SECRETARY proceeded to read the amendment. Mr. CHAMPLAIN moved to amend the section by striking out the words, " and a citizen for ten days," and inserting in place thereof the following, ' and shall then be a Citizen.": Mr. CHAMPLAIN -I stated on a previous 544 occasion all that I desired to say in support of this amendment. I only offer it now that a vote may be taken upon it. The question was then put on the amendment of Mr. Champlain, and it was declared lost. Mr. COMSTOCK-I offer the following amendment: The SECRETARY proceeded to read the amendment as follows: Amend the section by prefacing it with the following words: "The people of this State, in? virtue of their constitutional sovereignty, have the undoubted right to establish and regulate for themselves the elective franchise without interference or control by any other authority whatsoever. It is, there fore, declared as follows:" Mr. COMSTOCK-I have endeavored, Mr. President, to clothe that preamble to the article on suffrage in the proper language, and I have done it for the purpose of giving to this Convention a suitable opportunity to declare a conviction which I am persuaded myself must be quite unanimous upon the important subject to which it relates.- I think, sir, that we owe this declaration to our own self-respect and to the dignity and to the constitutional sovereignty of this great and populous commonwealth whose honor and interest are intrusted to our charge. At any former period in the history of this State such a declaration might have had no particular meaning or significance, because at no former period of our history has the exact truth of the proposition ever been in question or in doubt. But in the actual situation I do not see how we can do justice to ourselves or to those whbm we represent here by withholding a decorous yet firm and decided expression of our disapproval of pretensions put forth in certain quarters. It is known to the members of this Convention that while we sit here deliberating upon the Constitution-while we are attempting to fix the organic. law of suffrage-a legislative body has been recently sitting in another place outside of this State which proposes to take this subject into its own hands and to relieve the people of this State of any further attention to this fundamental right. The attention of the Convention in Committee of the Whole was yesterday called to the terms of a bill now pending in the Senate of the United States. That measure lies over in that branch of the national Legislature for another session soon to arrive. I think the danger of its passage is imminent and whoever thinks otherwise I believe is mistaken. If it can be averted, it can only be averted, in my judgment, by a clear and decided expression on the part of this Convention. I think it may be. I think the attention of the Convention ought to be called to a measure more extraordinary still brought forward in the other branch of the National Legislature. It is proposed in that body and has been referred to the Committee on the Judiciary. It provides that in case any Constitutional Convention of a State now sitting which shall devise organic law for that State, shall make any discrimination in reference to color or race, the Constitution which shall be so framed by such Convention, shall not become the organic law of the tate uil submitted to ad approved by Con-:*:: " *' **: gress. Now, sir, beyond all question, that bill was aimed directly at this body and was intended as a threat that in a certain contingency, by no means improbable, the Constitution which we may frame, however excellent in itself, and however approved by the people, shall not be the organic law of this State unless ratified and approved also by Congress. Here the gavel fell, the five minutes having expired. Mr. OPDYKE-I am opposed, Mr. President, to the amendment offered by the gentleman from Onondaga [Mr. Comstock]. T am one of those who believe that the pending amendments to the Constitution of the United States, will, when adopted transfer the prerogative over suffrage which now exists in the separate State governments to the government of the United States. Sir, these amendments have been ratified by this State, and I believe by at least twenty othiers. I know it is the opinion of many jurists that these amendments are already sufficiently ratified to become a part of the supreme law of the land. I have high authority also for saying that there can be no doubt that when they do become a part of the supreme law of the land, whether that time has arrived or not, they will accomplish what I have said, transfer all power from the separate States over the question of suffrage, to the government of the United States. We have shared in that transferment of power and it would seem to be very improper, in view of the fact, to unite in a declaration like the one here proposed. There should at least be a proviso attached to it, that the provision should not be operative if repugnant to the Constitution of the United States. I shall oppose the amendment. Mr. GREELEY-Let us suppose that six, eight or tvwelve families should move into a new Territory, and there establish a Constitution (under which they should be admitted into tlie Union), and which should provide that only the members of those families and their lineal descendants should have the right to vote in that embryo State. By and bye, the State has a half million of population, and the lineal descendants of those families comprise only some fifty or sixty persons who are entitled to vote. According to the doctrines that have been declared on this floor, time and time again, there is no power under heaven that could get that monopoly of the elective franchise abolished. They can keep it forever. I demand the protection of the Federal government against the establishment of these aristocracies. The Federal Constitution contains a provision that guarantees to each State a republican form of government; but that provision amounts to nothing if doctrines asserted here can be maintained. I hope, therefore, that this Convention will not undertake to interfere with that beneficetA provision of the Constitution. Mr. KERNAN and Mr. COMSTOCK —Mr. PresidentMr. KERNAN-I will yield to the gentleman from Onondaga [Mr. Comstock], The PRESIDENT-The Chair is of the opinion that a member cannot yield his rights to another who has already spoken. Mr. COMSTOOK-I respectfully submit that 545 if no other gentleman wishes to speak in favor of preservation of the rights of the people of the the amendment than the gentleman who has State reserved to them by the Federal Constitution, obtained the floor [Mr. Kernan], and he yields to and it is essential to the perpetuity of the union me, I have the right to the floor. of the States as it was formed. I trust we do The PRESIDENT —The Chair does not put not propose to surrender this power [Here the that construction on the rule. gavel fell]. Mr. KERNAN - I do not know, Mr. President, Mr. E. BROOKS-I call for the ayes and noes. what may happen in the future, but I shall greatly Mr. CARPENTER-I move that the amendment regret on account of the welfare of this republic, of the gentleman from Onondaga [Mr. Comstock], founded on the Constitution of the United States, be referred to the Committee on the Preamble, if the time ever comes when the people of the and the Bill of Rights. several States shall deem it wise to surrender to SEVERAL MEMBERS-No! No! the federal government the right to declare who The PRESIDENT-Does the gentleman from shall exercise the right of suffrage in each of those Dutchess [Mr. Carpenter] insist on his motion to States. When that time shall have arrived, I sub- refer? mit that we will have entirely changed the form of Mr. CARPENTER-I withdraw it. our government, and will have progressed very far A sufficient number seconding the call for the toward making a consolidated government rather ayes and noes, they were ordered. than the one which has worked so well. But, The question was then put on the amendment sir, as yet no such thing is claimed to have oc- of Mr. Comstock. curred. It is conceded that to-day, at least, un- The name of Mr. Barker was called. der the Constitution of the United States, as it Mr. BARKER-I desire to be excused from votnow is, the people of this State have this right, ing. I do not regard the preamble or the resoluand that Congress has no authority to declare who tion as necessary to protect our rights or define shall be electors in the State of New York, or them. Nor do I think it necessary for this Convenany other State. That being true as constitu- tion to instruct the Senate of the United States as to tional law, and this body being here as delegates how and wherein they shall amend the Federal Conof the people of this State to frame a Constitution to stitution. But when that proposition comes to this be submitted to them, declaring who shall exercise State to be ratified, I shall be found as I now am, the elective suffrage in this State,it seems to me that advocating the unqualified right of the people of we fail in our duty if, in view of the agitation here this State to define who are its electors. I withand elsewhere, we do not at least affirm that the draw my excuse and vote no. people who sent us here have that right, and that The PRESIDENT -The gentleman cannot we do not propose to abdicate it. I say this withdraw his excuse without the consent of the not only in reference to what is agitated else- Convention. Is there any objection There being where, but in reference to a resolution which, to no objection, the gentleman will be recorded in the my surprise, I find printed and upon our tables, negative. although it has not been called up for considera- The amendment of Mr. Comstock, was declared tion. One of the delegates of the people of this lost by the following vote. State, sitting in this body [Mr. Wales], under a Ayes-Messrs. Barnard, Barto, Bergen, E. Constitution and laws which vest in the people of Brooks, Burrill, Cassidy, Champlain, Chesebro, the State, the trust of regulating the right of suf- Church, Cochran, Colahan, Comstock, Conger, fiage, has put before us a resolution which reads Corning, Daly, Garvin, Gross, Hardenburgh, in this wise, in a portion of its preamble: Hitchman, Jarvis, Kernan, Larremore, Law, A. " WHEREAS, The Executive and the Legislature R. Lawrence, Livingston, Loew, Lowrey, Magee, of each State are, for certain purposes, the agents Masten, Mattice, Monell, More, Morris, Murphy, ot the United States." Nelson, Paige, A. J. Parker, Potter, Robertson, When and how did the Legislature of the State Rolfe, Schell, Schoonmaker, Seymour, Tappen, of New York, intrusted by the people of the Tucker, Veeder, Verplanck, Weed, Wickham, State with the power to make laws, and being Young-50. amenable to them, become an agent of the Federal Noes-Messrs. A. F. Allen, C. L. Allen, N. M. government. If it be an agent of the Federal Allen, Alvord, Andrews, Archer, Axtell, Baker, government, it is bound to do the will of that Ballard, Barker, Beadle, Beals, Beckwith, Bell, government, instead of being the law-making Bickford, Bowen, E. P. Brooks, E. A. Brown, W. power of the people of this State, subject to the C. Brown, Carpenter, Case, Cheritree, Clinton, Constitution of the United States. Under that Cooke, Corbett, Curtis, Duganne, C. C. Dwight, extraordinary preamble, a resolution is proposed T. W. Dwight, Eddy, Ely, Endress, Evarts, Farwhich instructs the Committee on the Right of num, Ferry, Field, Flagler, Folger, Fowler, FranSuffrage of this body to inquire into the expedi- cis, Frank, Fuller, Fullerton, Goodrich, Gould, ency of authorizing, by a constitutional provision, Grant, Graves, Greeley, Hadley, Hammond, Hand, the Legislature of the State to accept a system of Harris, Hiscock, Hitchcock, Houston, Huntingsuffrage which shall be prescribed and promul- ton, Hutchins, Kinney,, Krum, Landon, Lapham, gated by the Federal government. When and A. Lawrence, M. H. Lawrence, Lee, Ludington, how did this Convention derive authority to invite McDonald, Merrill, Merritt, Merwin, Miller, the Federal government to take from the people Opdyke, Pond, President, Prindle, Prosser, of this State their clear and exclusive power to Rathbun, Reynolds, Root, Rumsey, Seaver, Silregulate the exercise of the elective franchise in vester, Sheldon, Sherman, Smith, Spencer, M. I. this State. This power is essential to the good Townsend, Van Campen, Van Cott, Wakeman, government of the State. It is essential to the Wales, Williams-91. 69 546 Mr. GRAVES -I offer the following amend- tants in this State hereafter, with unrestricted ment. citizenship. And, as it cannot be denied, that The SECRETARY proceeded to read the with every class among all nationalities composing amendment, as follows: the population of this State, there is a deep-seated Add to the section the following: prejudice prevailing against colored men, I am But no man shall be allowed to vote at any impelled to believe that an amendment, like the election who is intoxicated to that degree which one I have offered, would, to a certain extent, if repeated from day to day for thirty days would modify the bitter feeling which otherwise may constitute him an habitual drunkard before a court be aroused, by doing all in favor of one certain of inquiry duly organized for that purpose under race, and showing no generosity or liberality the statutes of this State. toward the other. While we are on the eve of' Mr. GRAVES- This Convention has, in my admitting to full citizenship a class of people who opinion, wisely denied the exercise of the elec- have but just been raised from bondage, we still tive franchise to idiots, lunatics, and persons retain on a probation of five years the most intelwhose condition is not to be attributed to any ligent, the most wise, and the most moral man fault of their own, but perhaps to a dispensation who may make this country his future home, after of Providence. I submit, therefore, that leaving the home of his birth on the other side of when a person presents himself at the the ocean. Now, to allay this bitter feeling, which polls and offers his vote, who is in a con- no doubt will be engendered by such one-sided dition which, if continued, would deprive him action on the part of this Convention, I have of the control of his property and his person, and offered this amendment, and on it I ask the ayes require him to be placed in charge of a committee, and noes. he should not be allowed to exercise the elective The question was then put on the amendment franchise. It seems to me that if the idiot and of Mr. Gross, and it was declared lost by the follunatic, without any fault of their own, should be lowing vote: deprived of the privilege of voting, the person Ayes-Messrs. Baker, Barnard. Barto, E. Brooks, who through his own folly dements himself Cassidy, Champlain, Chesebro, Church, Colahan, should be also denied the privilege. Comstock, Conger, Corning, Garvin, Gross, HardenThe question was then put on the amendment burgh, Hitchman, Jarvis, Kernan, Larremore, of Mr. Graves and it was declared lost. Law, A. R. Lawrence, Livingston, Loew. Lowrey, Mr. GRAVES- -Will it be in order to offer a Magee, Masten, Mattice, Monell, More, Morris, resolution as a matter of privilege. Murphy, Nelson, Paige, A. J. Parker, Potter, Mr. FOLGER-I object. Robertson, Rolfe, Roy, Schell, Seymour, Tappen, Mr. GRAVES-I will state what it is. I Tucker, Van Campen, Veeder, Verplanck, Weed, received a letter from three gentlemen at the Wickham, Young-48. West, asking to be heard before the Committee Noes-Messrs. A. F. Allen, C. L. Allen, Alon Adulterated Liquors;- vord, Andrews. Archer, Axtell, Ballard, Barker, The PRESIDENT - The Chair would state Beadle, Beals, Beckwith, Bergen, Bickford, Bowen, that the subject referred to is foreign to the ques- E. P. Brooks, E. A. Brown, W. C. Brown, Burrill, tion now pending before this body. Carpenter, Case, Cheritree, Clinton, Cochran, Mr. GROSS -I offer the following amendment Cooke, Corbett. Curtis, Daly, Duganne, C. C. to the section. Dwight, T. W. Dwight, Eddy, Ely, Evarts, FarMr. GRAVES - And based upon that comrn- num, Ferry, Field, Flagler, Folger, Fowler, Franmunication I offer a resolution. cis, Frank, Fuller, Fullerton, Goodrich, Gould, The PRESIDENT- Objections being raised, Grant, Graves, Greeley, Hadley, Hammond, Hand, the resolution cannot be received. Harris, Hiscock, Hitchcock, Houston, Huntington, Mr. GRAVES - The object of the resolution is Hutchins, Kinney, Krum, Lapham, A. Lawrence, to give the use of this chamber for a-hearing for M. H. Lawrence, Lee, Ludington, McDonald, Mersome certain evening. rill, Merritt, Merwin, Miller, Opdyke, Pond, PresiThe SECRETARY proceeded to read the dent, Prindle, Prosser, Rathbun, Reynolds, Root, amendment offered by Mr. Gross, as follows: Rumsey, Schoonmaker, Seaver, Silvester, Sheldon, Add thereto the following: Sherman, Smith, Spencer, M. I. Townsend, Van Every male inhabitant of this State at the time Cott, Wakeman, Wales, Williams-90. when this Constitution shall go into operation, of Mr. CONGER - I desire to offer anew the foreign birth, who shall, at the time he may same amendment, proposed by the gentleman offer his vote, have declared his intention to be- from New York [Mr. Gross], with this come a citizen in conformity to the laws of the addition, to it, " except for representatives United States regulating naturalization, and who in the House of Assembly." My object shall also then possess in all other respects the in making that proposition, sir, is not to qualifications in this section prescribed, shall be have anything in the Constitution of the State of entitled to vote as hereinbefore provided. New York which shall be opposed to the ConstiMr. GROSS - I have offered this amendment, tution of the United States, and the only excepMr. President, for the purpose of reconciling tion that could be taken, in my judgment, under the conflicting views between different gentlemen the Constitution of the United States to allowing upon this floor. We have so far shown great a citizen who has declared his intention of voting, consideration toward a certain class of inhabitants would be that, if we give him the right to vote in this State, not regarded hitherto as full citi- without any limitation, a complaint would be zens. It seems to be the determination of a ma- made that we had altered the bases of represenjority of this body to clothe that class of inhabi- tation in the lower house of Congress of the 547 United States. Now, you remember, Mr. its development before that time and under cirPresident that when I spoke first on the cumstances which require in the very nature of question of suffrage, I broughtt to the at- things a separation from, a relief from, as many tention of this Convention a law of the cares as it is possible to withdraw from them. State of New York, passed in 1825, and not yet And, sir, it is impossible for scientific men, for repealed, that a person of foreign birth, having naturalists, or for any class of learned people to declared his intentions, was permitted to hold real determine what a terrible effect would be proestate, was held subject to military duty, though duced upon the rising generation of this country, he was not by that act permitted to vote. Such a if we were to add to the burdens, responsibilities, person is now, under the laws of the State of and the distractions of women's life the burden New York, for aught I know to the contrary, still and the distractions, and the responsibilities of liable to military duty, and the great reason has voting. Now, sir, if the amendment removes the been urged for the extension of the elective fran- difference between man and woman, I am deciclise to a certain class of the population is that dedlyin favor of it. [Laughter]. they have been held subject to military duty. Mr. GRAVES-I rise for the purpose of making Therefore I can see no objection whatever on con- an inquiry whether that part of the amendment stitutional reasons to the passage of the amend- offered, was not intended to have the woman's resment offered by the gentleman from New York idence the same length of time as that of a man's, [Air. Gross] with this proviso in it. And as and does it not mean that, when it says " possess I do not desire to detain the Convention save to the other qualifications of the men;" was notthat rectify the ground of the opinion on which I gave the intention of the mover? my vote, I shall not ask for the ayes and noes but Mr. WALES - The intention was to have the will be content with a count. woman's qualification to vote the same as those of The question was put on the amendment of the male citizen, and I did so express myself, Mr. Conger, and was declared lost. notwithstanding the merriment that was made. Mr. WALES-I offer the following amendment I will, however, withdraw the word "other." to the first section and move that it be inserted at The question was put on the amendment of Mr. the end of the tenth line: Wales and was declared lost. " Provided that every woman of the age of The SECRETARY then proceeded to read the twenty-one years who shall possess the other second section as follows: qualifications of male citizens, and whose name "SEC. 2. No person who shall receive, expect shall appear upon the assessment roll, and who to receive, pay, or offer or promise to pay, contrishall have paid a tax on personal property or on bute, or offer or promise to contribute to another real estate, shall have the same right to vote, to be paid or used, any money, or other valuable that male citizens have." [Laughter.] thing, as a compensation or reward for a vote to Mr. WALES -I do not ask, Mr. President, be given at an election, shall vote at such election; that this amendment be adopted, because suffrage and upon challenge for such cause, the person so is or is not a natural right, nor because it is or is challenged shall, before the inspectors receive his not a conventional privilege; but I do ask the vote, swear or affirm, before such inspectors, that members of this Convention to place it in the he has not received, does not expect to receive, Constitution as an act of justice to those for has not paid, nor offered or promised to pay, whose benefit I offer it; and in honor of the contributed, nor offered or promised to fathers who, in the primal days of the republic, contribute to others, to be paid or nay, before the foundations of the government used, any money or other valuable thing, as a were cemented by the blood of its martyrs, made compensation or reward for a vote, to be given at it a fundamental principle of American states- such election. Laws shall be passed excluding manship, that there should be no taxation without from the right of suffrage idiots, lunatics, and all representation. persons who may have been or may be convicted Mr. E. A. BROWN-I must say, Mr. President, of bribery, or of any infamous crime, and all perI have been not a little pressed with these proposi- sons who have been voluntarily engaged in rebeltions to allow women to vote, and to allow the lion against the United States, unless pardoned by nice boys of eighteen years of age also to vote. the President of the United States or the Governor Btt, I feel somewhat relieved by the proposition of the State of New York. Laws shall be passed of the gentleman from Sullivan [Mr. Wales], for for punishing and for depriving of the right of if I understand the amendment, it removes one suffrage, and excluding on challenge, persons who of my main objections to women voting. It pro- shall pay or contribute, or agree to pay or contrivides that when they come to possess all the bute, or who shall receive or agree to receive any "other qualifications of men." [Laughter] money, property or valuable thing to promote the That is to say, when they become men election of any particular candidate or ticket, or they shall vote. When that change comes who shall make or be interested in any bet or about, my objection to their voting will cease. wager dependent upon the result of any election. I desire to say further, that the only objection The payment of the expenses of printing, of the that I have to their voting, is that they are circulation of papers and documents previous to women. I object because they are women and any election, are excepted from the operation of for no other reason. As women, they are intrusted this section. by nature with providing for the renewing of the Mr. GRANT-I offer the following amendment race of men; they are called upon to take charge, to the second section: not only of the tender infant, from the time of Any person convicted of receiving a bribe to its birth, but they are by necessity intrusted with.influence his action, or failure to act, in the dis 548 ciarge of his duties as member of the Legisla- eradicate corruption from the legislative branch ture or of any other public office or trust to which of the government. he has been elected or appointed, shall not be The five minutes having expired the gavel fell. allowed to vote in this State, unless pardoned by The question was put on the amendment of Mr. the Governor, with the consent of the Senate by Grant, and it was declared lost. a two-thirds vote. Mr. FIELD - I offer the following amendment: Mr. VERPLANCK-I rise to a point of order. "After the end of the twelfth line insertMr. GRANT-I offer this amendment at the The PRESIDENT - The Chair will inform the end of the first section. It is designed, mainly, gentleman that that line has been stricken out. as will be discovered from its terms, to reach cases Mr. FIELD -The twelfth line of the third of members of the Legislature who have been section — bribed. Sir, bribery in legislative action is one of The PRESIDENT -We have not yet reached the greatest and growing evils of which men of all the third section. parties constantly complain. That members of Mr. DWIGHT -Before completing the third our Legislature are bribed, not singly, but by section, I move to reconsider the vote by which working majorities, is no longer disputed, and by the the part of the first section was stricken out. provisions of this report as amended so far, the The PRESIDENT - That can only be made by whole subiect of bribery is submitted to the action unanimous consent. of the Legislature. The first point I make is that Objection being made, the motion was laid on it is folly on the part of this Convention to submit the table. the subject of bribery in the Legislature to legis- Mr. CHURCH- I offer the following amendlative action. When the Legislature itself is cor- ment: rupt do we expect it to punish its own corruption? Amend the section by inserting after the word Why, sir, we might as well submit it to the "people," in the seventh and eighth lines, the scholars in a school, who are constantly trans- words "and upon all questions which may be gressing a rule or law of the school to provide submitted to the vote of the people." and inflict punishment for the violation of that law; Mr. CHURCH -This section prescribes the we might as well submit the question of punish- qualifications of voters for all officers that now are ment of misdemeanors to classes of the commu- or hereafter may be elected by the people. It nity who are alleged to be constantly guilty of seems to me proper that the same qualifications those misdemeanors. Again, sir, the amendment should exist upon all questions which may be subI offer proposes to disfranchise the men only mitted to the vote of the people. There are a who receive the bribe. Sir, so long as we great many questions that the Legislature may shall depend upon loose legislative provisions to submit-questions provided in the Constitution, put an end to bribery in the Legislature whereby such as questions of debt, and others. Unless the man who offers the bribe and the man who we insert this provision it will be in the power of receives it are to be considered alike gullty, the Legislature to prescribe qualifications for and neither compellable witnesses to testify electors for that particular election, and they may against his partner in guilt, under the rule by enlarge the elective franchise or restrict it at their which he need not furnish evidence for his own pleasure. It seems to me we should have the conviction, the bribery acts will remain a nullity same rule applied to the election of all officers, on every statute book. So long as our laws pro- and to all other questions on which the people vide that the man who offers the bribe shall be in will vote. the same category with the man who receives it, Mr. FOLGER-It seems to me that the case so long you put an end to the chances for judicial suggested by the gentleman from Orleans [Mr. conviction, you put an end to even a prospect Church] may very well occur; that some Legislathat you may ever reach the man who receives ture, desirous of procuring the indorsement by the the bribe. Self protection locks the mouth of people of, for instance, a debt proposed to be each as to all judicial inquiry against the other. incurred, may provide that the question shall be Sir, I believe 'it to be necessary that we should submitted to the consideration of the people turn loose one of the guilty pair, that we may use differently than the Constitution provides for the him against the other, and I select from the two, election of officers, and in my judgment it is for disfranchisement the one most guilty, I proper to guard against that. But I should wish select the one whose honor and trust, and oath before voting for it to restrict the application of have all been violated. IHe is the member who the amendment of the gentleman from Orleans has taken the office, he is the man in whom we [Mr. Church] to such questions as are provided have reposed a trust. He is the man whose vicious for in the Constitution itself to be submitted, act constitutes the injury, the wrong, and the guilt and therefore I move to amend the amendment as of which we complain. Now, sir, I think that we follows: should carefully consider this amendment and adopt Strike out the word "may" and insert in lieu it as a part of our fundamental law, so that the thereof the words "are required by the provisions members of the Legislature may read from their of this Constitution to." Red Books not that they may pass laws punishing Mr. E. A. BROWN-I wish to remark that any bribery, but that members of the Legislature may article which provides for submitting a question be convicted of bribery by allowing the man who of debt should provide that such questions pays the bribe to testify against them on the should be submitted to the legal voters of the trial without criminating himself, and that if State. The Constitution does not now authorize proved guilty, they shall be forever disfranchised, the Legislature when it authorizes it to submit and we will do more than has yet been done to such questions, to submit to any other than the 549 legal voters of the State. It seems to me the burgh, Hitchman, Jarvis, Kernan, Larremore, amendment is entirely unnecessary. Law, A. R. Lawrence, Livingston, Loew, Lowrey, Mr. COMSTOCK —I wish to ask the gentle- Magee, Masten, Mattice, McDonald, Merritt, Milman from Orleans [Mr. Church] to accept a slight ler, Monell, More, Morris, Murphy, Nelson, Paige, amendment by adding the words " of the State A. J. Parker, Potter, President, Robertson, Rolfe, at large " so as to avoid the question of munici- Roy, A. D. Russell, Schell, Schoonmaker, Seaver, pal charters. Seymour, Smith, Tappen, Tucker, Van Campen, Mr. CHURCH-Certainly; I did not think there Veeder, Verplanck, Wickham, Young-70. was any doubt under my amendment. If there Noes-Messrs. C. L. Allen. Alvord, Andrews, is I accept it. Archer, Ballard, Beadle, Beals, Beckwith, BickMr. SMITH — I do not quite understand the ford, Bowen, E. A. Brown, W. C. Brown, Case, object of the amendment, proposed by the gentle- Cooke, Corbett, Curtis, Duganne, C. C. Dwight, T. man from Ontario [Mr. Folger], and before voting W. Dwight, Eddy, Ely, Endress, Evarts, Farnum, should like to do so. I suppose all questions to be Field, Folger, Fowler, Francis, Goodrich, Gould, submitted to the people relate to the administration Grant, Graves, Greeley, Hadley, Hammond, Hand, of the affairs of the State, and we are now de- Harris, Hitchcock, Houston, Huntington, Hutchtermining a rule as to who shall participate in the ins, Kinney, Krum, Landon, Lapham, A. Lawgovernment of the State. Why should one class rence, M. H. Lawrence, Lee, Ludington, Merrill, vote upon questions submitted by a provision in Merwin, Opdyke, Pond, Prindle, Prosser, Raththe Constitution, and another class vote on ques- bun, Reynolds, Root, Rumsey, Silvester, Sheldon, tions submitted by act of the Legislature? I do Sherman, Spencer, Van Cott, Wakeman, Wales, not quite understand the reason of the distinction. Williams-67. Mr. FOLGER - If I may be allowed to answer, Mr. ALVORD - I move a reconsideration of I will, though perhaps the reason may not be a the vote just had in the passage of the amendgood one. It is just the same reason I stated in ment of the gentleman from Orleans [Mr. reply to the gentleman from Onondaga [Mr. Com- Church]. stock] when he offered his amendment in the Mr. CONGER-I object. Committee of the Whole, to wit: that I consid- The PRESIDENT-The objection being made, ered the Legislature, in passing an enabling act the motion lies over under the rule. for the calling of a Convention to revise the Con- Mr. GRANT-I offer the following amendment. stitution, has a right to include in the electoral The SECRETARY proceeded to read the amendbody persons who are not authorized by the Con- ment as follows: stitution to be amended to vote for delegates. I "No person shall become a voter in this State wish especially to except that power from the after 1872, unless he can read the Constitution of restrictions proposed to be inserted in this Con- the State of New York, except such person be stitution by the amendment of the gentleman from prevented from reading by physical disability Orleans [Mr. Church], although perhaps it is not only; Provided, however, That no person who necessary. shall have the right to vote under the existing Mr. SMITH- I asked the question for infor- Constitution at anytime up to and including 1872, mation, and will say that the reason given for it shall thereafter be deprived of the right to vote by is the reason why I shall vote against it. reason of disability to read. The question was then put on the amendment Mr. GRANT -It will be discovered from the of Mr. Folger and it was declared lost. provisions of this amendment that I do not proThe PRESIDENT announced the question to pose to disfranchise any man who is now a voter be on the amendment of Mr. Church. nor any man who may become a voter up to the The name of Mr. Folger was called. year 1873 a period of more than five years from Mr. FOLGER-I ask to be excused from voting. this time. Sir, with the opportunities for educaWithout the amendment which I proposed as an tion that we now have in this State, with our amendment to the amendment of the gentleman common school system, and with our thousands from Orleans [Mr. Church], I conceive it to be of school-houses that are found on the hill-sides mischievous and dangerous; with this explana- and in the valleys throughout the entire domain tion I ask to withdraw my request to be excused, of our State, open for the education of every perand if allowed to vote I will vote no. son, I cannot believe that after 1872, more than There being no objection, Mr. Folger was re- five years from this time, with this prospective oorded in the negative. provision in the Constitution from which all will Mr. M. I. TOWNSEND-I ask to be excused on hear and know that ability to read is made a necthe ground that I have not heard this question essary qualification before they can vote, there discussed and do not understand its bearings. will be within the State of New York, twenty*The question was put on granting the request five native born citizens who cannot read the Conof Mr. M. I. Townsend and it was declared car- stitution of the State. Again, sir, we are to look ried. at the effect of this amendment upon foreign born The amendment of Mr. Church was declared citizens. Let us take two examples. An ignocarried by the following vote: rant Chinaman, is thrown upon our shores, withAyes-Messrs. A. F. Allen, Axtell, Baker, Bar- out any knowledge of our institutions. Whether in ker, Barnard, Barto, Bergen, E. Brooks, E. P. a republic or monarchy, whether voting for GovBrooks, Burrill, Carpenter, Cassidy, Champlain, ernor of a State or postmaster he does not know. Cheritree, Chesebro,. Church, Clark, Clinton, Coch- He cannot read. He has neither ability nor desire ran, Colahan, Comstock, Conger, Corning, Ferry, to improve. He has no admiration for our govern. Frank, Fuller, Fullerton, Garvin, Gross, Harden- ment, yet we make him a voter. Again, an 550 Englishman, perhaps a man of intelligence and refinement who has read the history of our country and has mastered our laws and made himself familiar with the duties and obligations of citizenship, with our institutions and the workings of our government who has renounced his allegiance to his native country, with an exalted understanding and appreciation of those institutions, comes to our shores and makes the Empire State his adopted home, that he and his posterity may enjoy the beneficent workings of these institutions, and the blessings of free government. But when he arrives he is placed precisely upon the same platform with the Chinaman, who does not know nor realize any of the obligations or duties of citizenship, who knows nothing about our government, whose mind is a blank page in the book of life. Thus, a man of intelligence and learning, comprehending the whole structure of our government, and another man who knows nothing of our institutions or his duties as a citizen are deemed to possess like requisites and passports to citizenship. Now, sir, in view of the difference in the qualifications of these men, in view of the difference in their ability to discharge the duty of citizens of the State, sir, as but justice to our government, as but just to the men who make our State their adopted country, and as a just incentive to education and intelligence, it is our duty to recognize and establish a distinction, and to declare by a provision of the fundamental law, as this amendment provides, that intelligence shall be required as one of the qualifications of citizenship and declare, as it further provides, that after 1872 no man shall become a part of the body politic and be invested with the highest and most sacred prerogative, namely, the exercise of the elective franchise in this State, who is unable to read its Constitution. The privileges of the franchise we now withhold from the college graduate of twenty years of age, who has mastered a learned profession and possesses distinguished ability, upon the ground that he has not yet a mature understanding and judgment of the duties and obligations of citizenship. Shall we not require of the stranger at least ability to read, that he may learn the structure of the government as well as the duties and obligations of its citizens. Here the gavel fell, the five minutes having expired. The question was then put on the amendment of Mr. Grant, and it was declared lost. Mr A. J. PARKER - I move that the Convention do now adjourn. The question was then put on the motion of Mr. Parker, and it was declared lost, on a division, by a vote of 52 to 68. Mr. VAN CAMPEN-I move that the Convention take a recess until half-past seven o'clock. The question was put upon the motion of Mr. VanCampen and it was declared lost. Mr. BARTO-I move that we now adjourn. The question was put upon the motion of Mr. Barto and it was declared lost. Mr. CONGER-I move the following amendment which I presume will meet the approbation of the Convention without discussion. The SECRETARY read the amendment as follows: Insert after the word "given" in line 5, and after the word "given" in the 12th line, the words, "or to be withheld." Mr. CONGER-It is very evident bribery would compass its work by holding out inducements for an elector to stay at home and not vote, just as efficiently as it would by procuring a vote on purchase. The question was put on the amendment of Mr. Conger, and it was declared carried. Mr. ANDREWS-I offer the following amendment: The SECRETARY read the amendment as follows: Insert after the words " valuable thing," in line 4, the words "or make any promise or engagement to influence or." Also, insert after the words "valuable thing," line 11, the words, "nor made any promise to influence or." Mr. ANDREWS-Mr. President, the object of this amendment is to cover a case which I think is not covered by the language of this section as it stands, and I might suggest one of the class of cases to which I refer. A voter is called up and informed that if his vote shall be given in a certain direction, public employment in the control of the man making the proposition shall be subsequently given to him, and as we all understand, this is one of the class of inducements which are offered to control the votes of the electors. As this section stands it is, "No person who shall receive, expect to receive, pay, or offer or promise to pay, contribute, or offer or propose to contribute, to another to be paid, any money or valuable thing." In the case which I have cited there is neither a payment or contribution of any money or valuable thing or any promise to pay money or a valuable thing; and it is for the purpose of providing for cases of this character that I have proposed the amendment. It will read as amended, "no person who shall receive, expect to receive, pay or offer or propose to pay, contribute or offer or propose to contribute to another to be paid any money or other valuable thing, or make any promise or engagement to influence or as a compensation or reward for voting, etc.," and the second part of the amendment will conform the last part of the section to the alteration proposed in the first. Mr. COMSTOCK -I wish merely to say that I think that a very proper amendment and I hope it will prevail. Mr. CONGER - I would like to ask the gentleman who offers this amendment, if he has any objection, or sees any difficulty to making it include the class of cases where the undertaking is to deter a person from voting; not making an offer, as in the case he proposes, to give a person employment, but a threat to turn a person out of his employment if he votes in a certain way. Mr. ANDREWS - That is a promise or engagement to influence a vote. Mr. CONGER-If the gentleman thinks it covers that case I am entirely satisfied. 551 Mr. LIVINGSTON I would like to ask the gentleman if political offices are included in his suggestion? Mr. SEYMOUR —I wish to suggest the propriety of dropping the word " engagement." It is a very general and hardly a legally defined word. Let the whole rest upon the word " promise." It seems to cover the point, and is a very proper amendment, I think. I do not understand what the gentleman means by the word "engagement." Mr. ANDREWS-I think there is no objection to withdrawing that word, and I will consent to do so. Mr. PRINDLE —I would like to inquire of the gentleman from Onondaga [Mr. Andrews] whether his amendment would cover the case of a man running for office, where the candidate makes a promise to act in a particular manner, if the party will vote for him. Mr. ANDREWS-I so understand it. Mr. PRINDLE-It strikes me that it embraces too much, because if a person should be running for office, and a member of his own party should be distrustful of him, the candidate might promise to him that he would act with his party or vote upon any question in a certain manner. I am not positive that this amendment would include that case, but it strikes me there is danger it would. The question was then put on the amendment proposed by Mr. Andrews, and it was declared adopted. Mr. VERPLANCK- I offer the following amendment: After the words "United States " in line 17 of section 2, add, "or in defrauding the government of this State or of the United States during the late rebellion." The question was put on the amendment of Mr. Verplanck and it was declared carried. Mr. KRUM-I offer the following amendment: "After the word "expect," first line, insert the words "or offer." Also after the word "received," 8th line, insert the words, " has not offered." My object in inserting the words "or offer," in the first line, after the word " expect," and the words "has not offered," in the eighth line, after the word "received," are as follows: As the section now stands it reads like this: "No person who shall.receive, expect to receive, pay, or offer or promise to pay, etc." The word "offer" in the second line applies to the person who has paid, and not to the person who has received, and I desire to make the provision apply to the person who has offered to receive as well as to the person who has offered to sell his vote. I desire to make the offer to sell a ground of challenge, equally with the offering to buy. I propose to put both upon the same footing. I propose that the oath a person offering to buy shall take, shall also cover the case of a person offering to sell by the words I propose to insert. The question was put on the amendment of Mr. Krum, and it was declared carried. Mr. HARRIS- I move to strike out from lines, 15, 16, 17, 18, the provision in relation to the disqualificationThe PRESIDENT - The Chair will inform the gentleman that as long as it is desired to perfect the section, the motion to strike out cannot be entertained. Mr. E. BROOKS-I renew the motion to adjourn. The question was put on the motion of Mr. E. Brooks, and it was declared carried. So the Convention stood adjourned. FRIDAY, July 26, 1867. The Convention met at 11 o'clock A. M. Prayer was offered by the Rev. RUFUS W. CLARK. The Journal of yesterday was read by the SECRETARY and approved. Mr. HADLEY-I ask for leave of absence until Tuesday evening next. I make the request on the ground of illness in my family. There being no objection leave was granted. Mr. MERWIN-I ask for leave of absence for three days on account of business engagements of long standing. There being no objection leave was granted. Mr. RATHBUN-It has become necessary that I should be absent. I therefore ask leave of absence until Monday. There being no objection leave was granted. Mr. SILVESTER-I wish to ask for leave of absence until next Wednesday. There being no objection leave was granted. Mr. W. C. BROWN-I will ask for leave of absence until Tuesday morning. There being no objection leave was granted. Mr. ARCHER —I ask for leave of absence for Mr. Larremore for five days on account of sickness in his family. There being no objection leave was granted. Mr. AXTELL-I ask for leave of absence for my colleague Mr. Cheritree, until Tuesday next. There being no objection leave was granted. Mr. SHERMAN I ask for leave of absence until Monday next. There being no objection leave was granted. Mr. E. BROOKS- There are a considerable minority of this Convention asking for leave of absence for several days. * I therefore move that when this Convention adjourns it adjourn to meet again on Monday evening next. Mr. ALVORD - I rise to a point of order, that the motion cannot be entertained under the rule of the Convention. The PRESIDENT - Objection being made the motion cannot be entertained. Mr. E. BROOKS - I submit it is a privileged question. The PRESIDENT - The Chair recognizes the question of an immediate adjournment as privileged. Mr. BALLARD- I ask for leave of absence until Wednesday morning next. There being no objection leave was granted. Mr. SEAVER - I ask for leave of absence until Tuesday morning next. There being no objection leave was granted. Mr. OPDYKE - With a view to enable the gentleman from Richmond [Mr. E. Brooks] to offer his resolution, I move that the order of business be laid on the table temporarily. The PRESIDENT - That would require a twothirds vote. Mr. FOLGER - I would ask leave of absence for myself and colleague, Mr. McDonald, until Monday evening. There being no objection leave was granted. tunity to consult with the chairman of the-ComMr. SMITH -I ask for leave of absence until mittee on the Right of Suffrage, in order to learn Tuesday morning. how I should be permitted to vote, and I will There being no objection leave was granted. briefly explain my reasons for asking to be exMr. LIVINGSTON- I ask for leave of absence cused. After the final vote was taken last night until Tuesday morning. I passed up this aisle quietly, and was accosted There being no objection leave was granted. coarsely and profanely - Mr. ALVORD -I feel compelled, sir, now to Mr. TAPPEN - I rise to a point of order - object to granting any further leave of absence Mr. DUGANNE - I am explaining - unless a vote shall be taken, and gentlemen give The PRESIDENT- The Chair thinks the extheir reasons why they desire these leaves of planation is scarcely parliamentary. absence. I am entirely willing to grant a leave Mr. DUGANNE —Well, then, sir, I was acof absence to gentlemen who stand up here and costed in a gentlemanly manner by an honorable desire it, not for their own personal conveni- member on this floor in these words - ence, but from some absolute necessity, not The PRESIDENT - The Chair will inform the otherwise. gentleman what transpired out of the Convention Mr. MATTICE -I desire a leave of absence can hardly be alluded to in this chamber. until Monday evening next, and I will state that Mr. DIUGANNE- I was merely explaining - I have immediate business to transact to-morrow The PRESIDENT - The gentleman will prowhich will render my attending the Convention ceed in order. an utter impossibility. Mr. DUGANNE - I wish to ask permission to There being no objection leave was granted. withdraw my request, to be excused from voting Mr. KERNAN - I ask for leave of absence for and to vote aye. Mr. Sheldon, of Dutchess, on account of sickness Mr. GREELEY -I object to his voting. in his family, until Monday evening. The PRESIDENT - It is for the Convention to There being no objection leave was granted. say whether the gentleman shall vote or not. Mr. OPDYKE - I rise to a point of order, that The question was put on granting permission I made a motion to suspend the order of business to Mr. Duganne to vote, and it was declared carand to temporarily lay it on the table; that mo- ried. tion ought to be taken up and acted upon. Mr. SEAVER - I ask to be excused from The question was then put on the motion of voting, for the reason that I have already obMr. Opdyke and it was declared carried. tained leave of absence. If I vote I would have Mr. E. BROOKS - That motion having pre- to vote no. vailed, I move that when the Convention ad- The question was put on excusing Mr. Seaver journs it adjourns to meet on Monday evening to vote, and it was declared lost. next. The SECRETARY proceeded with the call of The PRESIDENT -I would say that motion the roll, on the motion of Mr. Brooks, and it was cannot be entertained without the consent of the declared carried by the following vote: Convention. There being no objection the motion Ayes- Messrs. C. L. Allen, Andrews, Archer, of the gentleman from Richmond [Mr. E. Brooks] Armstrong, Axtell, Baker,,Ballard, Barnard, Bell, will be entertained. E. Brooks, E. A. Brown, W. C. Brown, Carpenter, 'Mr. E. BROOKS - Then I move that when Cassidy, Chesebro, Church, Clinton, Cochran, this Convention adjourns this evening it adjourns Colahan, Cooke, Corbett, Corning, Curtis, Daly, to meet on Monday evening at seven and one-half Duganne, C. C. Dwight, Eddy, Evarts, Ferry, o'clock. Field, Francis, Fuller, Garvin, Goodrich, Gross, Mr. MILLER-I move to amend that " when Hadley, Hardenburgh, Harris, Hatch, Hitchman, this Convention adjourns to-morrow it adjourns to Houston, Huntington, Jarvis, Larremore, Law, meet on Monday evening at seven o'clock. " A. R. Lawrence, Livingston, Loew, Lowrey,Magee, The question was put on the motion of Mr. Masten, Mattice, McDonald, Merwin, Monell, Miller and it was declared lost. More, Morris, Murphy, Nelson, Opdyke, Paige, Mr. GREELEY- I move to amend " provid- A. J. Parker, Pond, President, Prindle, Rathbun, ing the article on suffrage shall in the mean- Robertson, Rogers, Rolfe, Roy, A. D. Russell, time be disposed of. " Schell, Schoonmaker, Seymour, Silvester, ShelThe question was put on the motion of Mr. don, Sherman, Smith, Tappen, M. I. Townsend, Greeley, and it was declared to be lost. S. Townsend, Tucker, Van Cott, Veeder, VerMr. GREELEY-I call for a division. planck, Weed, Wickham, Young- 88. Mr. VERPLANCK-I rise to a point of order, Noes- Messrs. A. F. Allen, Alvord, Barker, that the gentleman from Westchester [Mr. Gree- Barto, Beadle, Beals, Beckwith, Bickford, Bowen, ley] did not ask for a division until after the E. P. Brooks, Case, Champlain, Clark, Comstock, Chair had announced the result. Conger, T. W. Dwight, Ely, Endress, Farnum, The PRESIDENT - The point of order is well Flagler, Fowler, Gould, Grant, Graves, Greeley, taken. Hammond, Hand, Hitchcock, Kernan, Kinney, Mr. GREELEY called for the ayes and noes on Krum, Landon, Lapham, A. Lawrence, M. H. the motion of Mr. E. Brooks. Lawrence, Lee, Ludington, Merrill, Merritt, A sufficient number seconding the call the ayes Miller, Potter, Reynolds, Root, Rumsey, Seaver, and noes were ordered. Spencer, Van Campen, Wakeman, Wales, WilMr. DUGANNE- I desire to be excused liams -50. from voting upon this question of adjournment, Mr. ALVORD - Under the order of resolutions on the ground that I have not yet had an.oppor- I desire to offer to the Convention a resolution 553 that seems to me must strike every one as eminently proper at this time, and I trust there can be no objection entertained to it. It will largely facilitate the business of the Convention in the right direction. Resolved, That the President appoint a committee of five, whose duty it shall be, from time to time, to arrange the form and phraseology of each article as the same shall be agreed to by the Convention, and report to the Convention, but in so arranging the form and phraseology of the article they shall not alter the substance or meaning of the same as adopted by the Convention. Mr. CONGER —I would suggest to the honorable gentleman from Onondaga that this is quite unnecessary, as we will have soon a committee of revision on every article in the Constitution. The PRESIDENT-The Chair understands this resolution to call for such a committee. Mr. ALVORD-It calls for a committee of arrangement on each of the different articles, as each article may be proposed from time to time. It does not interfere at all with the other committees. The question was then put on the resolution of Mr. Alvord and it was declared adopted. The PRESIDENT announced the special order, being the report of the Standing Committee on the Right of Suffrage and the Qualifications to Hold Office, as amended in Committee of the Whole. Mr. T. W. DWIGHT-I call up for consideration the resolution offered by me on Saturday last. The PRESIDENT-The Chair will inform the gentleman that it has already announced the special order of business. Mr. VEEDER -Was not the special order laid on the table? The PRESIDENT - It was, for a specific purpose. The Chair understands that purpose to be accomplished. - The question now is upon the pending section of the report. Mr. A. J. PARKER —I offer the following amendment: I propose to strike out these words, "And all persons who have been voluntarily engaged in rebellion against the United States unless pardoned by the President of the United States or the Governor of the State of New York." It proposes to disqualify a class of persons from voting that are not disqualified under the Constitution as it now is. It is in fact, therefore, imposing upon them a punishment enacted after the offense has taken place and is ex post facto in effect. I think it objectionable upon that ground and I also think it impolitic, as it must drive from this State all who have been engaged in this rebellion, no matter how penitent they may be, for the crime they have committed. I believe too, that it would be very impolitic to condemn a great class of persons, and to deprive them of the right of suffrage who have not been convicted of an offense. The previous portion of the section covers the case of all who have been convicted of crime, including of course treason; but if you are to deprive of the right of suffrage those who have been supposed to be guilty but have not been convicted, it would be always an 70 open question at the polls whether the person had been voluntarily engaged or not, and thus you change the inspectors of election into a tribunal to decide upon this most important question, the guilt of a person in regard to an offense punishable with death. It is also objectionable for the reason that appears from the amendment first offered by the gentleman from Tioga [Mr. E. P. Brooks]. They are to be excluded from voting unless pardoned by the President of the United States or Governor of the State of New York. Now the offense alleged is rebellion against the United States. It is certain that the Governor of the State of New York has no power over an offense against the general government. It is not proposed to disqualify those who have been engaged or may be engaged in rebellion against the State of New York; that is a felony of itself, provided for by our statutes and punishable as a capital offense. Of an offense of that kind, this Convention might take cognizance, but certainly not of anything relating to offenses against the general government. For these reasons, believing that it is wrong in principle as well as unpolitic to adopt the proposed new provisions, I move that these words be stricken out. Mr. COOKE - Two days ago the distinguished gentleman from Onondaga [Mr. Comstock] when this question was before the Committee of the Whole informed the committee that the United States supreme court had decided against the right of States to exclude from the elective franchise any citizen for disloyalty, and warned the committee against adopting this provision lest it should be found in conflict with the highest judicial authority in the land. Yesterday the same gentleman proposed to this Convention a preamble which asserted the undoubted right of the people of this State, by virtue of their sovereignty, to establish and regulate for themselves the elective franchise, without interference or control of any other authority whatever. Now, I would like to know on which side the gentleman stands to-day, whether he stands upon the authority of the Supreme Court of the United States or upon his preamble, which denies all authority in the Federal courts or the Federal government in the matter. I, sir, for one, am not in favor of punishing offenses by disfranchising offenders, particularly for light offenses. I think it should be resorted to only in extreme cases. I notice on the part of gentlemen all around me, a good deal of sensitiveness on this subject of the rebels, and the manner in which they should be treated. Gentlemen inquire, is this persecution never to end? And yet these same gentlemen voted in a. body in favor of disfranchising the speculator who had defrauded the government to the amount of a dollar. Mr. A. J. PARKER-I voted against it. Mr. COOKE —The gentleman says he voted against that proposition. That is only an exception which proves the rule. Why is this so? Is it so much worse for a man to have wrongfully pocketed a few paltry dollars that belonged to the government, than to have sought by armed treason to destroy the government? Is the former class of offenders to be utterly disfranchised and 554 held not fit to participate in the administration of the government, while the latter class are received into full fellowship and allowed to come here and participate in measures calculated for the protection and for the good of the government? My friend from Richmond [Mr. E. Brooks] asserted the day before yesterday that this was a party question. All I have to say is, I thank God that I belong to no party that discriminates in favor of traitors. I shall vote against striking out. Mr. HARRIS-Is not that the same amendment that was ruled out of order last night? The PRESIDENT-The Chair is not aware that it is. Mr. HARRIS-It is precisely the same, word for word. The PRESIDENT-The Chair desires to state upon examination and reflection, it is satisfied it was wrong in its ruling last evening, and will endeavor to correct its error. The gentleman moved last night to amend to strike out a particular paragraph. It did not understand at the time it was a paragraph and ruled that it was out of order while amendments were being made to perfect the section. Mr. GOULD -What is it that the gentleman from Albany [Mr. A. J. Parker] requires us to do, and in what position does he propose to place this Convention? The other day, sir, after due deliberation and ample discussion, this Convention decided that treason was odious and that traitors should take the back seats. Now, sir, the gentleman from Albany [Mr. A. J. Parker] deliberately rises and asks us to reverse that decision and decide that treason is not odious; that traitors shall not take the back seats. Now, sir, if the Convention decide in accordance with his wishes, the muse of history will drop a tear upon those words-would to God that those tears might blot them out forever. But, sir, that decision will remain as a standing memorial through all time, and I wish to ask gentleman whether they desire thus to record themselves and place themselves and the Convention in this position. Why, sir, two young men, neighbors of mine, with the most.sincere and patriotic motives, entered into the army of the United States during the late rebellion. They were captured, sir, and placed in the prison-pen at Salisbury. I saw them when they came back, and heard their stories. They came back living skeletons. They had been fed upon a quart of rice water per day for a week together. Their intellects were hardly sufficient to tell their stories, and yet they did tell us. While in that starving pen the rebels would man the walls and fling meat and other provisions, just so in order to reach them, the prisoners had to go over the dead lines, as they were called, and the instant they did so, men stood with leveled muskets and shot them dead. The PRESIDENT -The Chair desires to ask the unanimous permission of the Convention, inasmuch as by its ruling the gentleman from Albany [Mr. Harris] has been deprived from speaking, that he may be heard upon this question. Mr. HARRIS-I am grateful to the Chair,and also to the Convention for its courtesy. I had desired to present this same motion last evening and to make a few remarks upon it. I believe, sir, that this clause ought to be stricken out. I think that we should confine ourselves in the amendments we propose to the Constitution, to such amendments as are called for, and shown to be necessary by experience, and that will have some practical effect. I do not think that it is necessary for this Convention to put into the Constitution a record of its patriotism, or to require the Legislature to institute an inquisition to determine the loyalty or disloyalty of those who may ask to vote. Sir, the effect of this will be one or the other of two things. No man has yet been convicted of treason, and no man expects that any one will be convicted of it, in respect to this rebellion. Therefore, if it means to disfranchise a person who has been convicted, of course it will be a dead letter. Then the only other construction to be given to it is that the officers who are charged with the registry shall inquire into the loyalty or disloyalty of a voter who applies to be registered. That would be a most dangerous thing for the inspectors of election in every election to institute an inquisition as to what course the voter has pursued during the rebellion, and if it is to have any practical effect it is that. It seems to me that would be dangerous, and very objectionable. I hope we shall let the dead bury the dead, and we shall not undertake to perpetuate during the next' twenty years this inquisition in relation to the course citizens may have taken in reference to the rebellion. Mr. BICKFORD - I rise to make an inquiry. It is whether if this amendment prevails, it carries with it the amendment adopted yesterday, on the motion of the gentleman from Erie [Mr. Masten], to disfranchise those who committed frauds against the government. The PRESIDENT- The Chair is unable to answer the question. Mr. CONGER-I wish to suggest to the Chair, having seen the honorable gentleman from New York [Mr. Evarts] rise for the first time to participate in the discussion of this Convention, that inasmuch as he obtained a hearing by special request for the gentleman from Albany [Mr. Harris], that he will not include him in the number who have spoken. The PRESIDENT-Four gentlemen had spoken before the gentleman from Albany. Mr. CONGER-I think not. I think he was the fourth. I will ask the unanimous consent of the Convention that the gentleman from New York be allowed to speak. The question was put on granting permission to Mr. Evarts to speak, and it was granted. Mr. EVARTS-I feel greatly embarrassed in accepting the courtesy thus extended to me, for there certainly seems to be no good reason for it. Yet I feel disposed to say what I would have said when this amendment was before voted upon if I had supposed there was the least chance that the Convention would adopt it. When the learned and gallant member from Clinton [Mr. Axtell] proposed a series of predicaments which should exclude from the right of suffrage in this State, to wit: deserters, fugitives from conscription, and those who had been voluntarily engaged in 55 the rebellion, I supposed that, in his mind and in the mind of the Convention, the fact of desertion would be considered a crime as worthy of pursuit and punishment by our constitutional provisions, as any other offense that he reprobated by his amendment; and when the sense of the Convention, in which I concur, had refused to sanction this first general proscription, and the second clause, having affinity to it, in respect to fugitives from a draft; I assumed that this last clause-which in great part, if operative at all, must be supposed to be operative upon persons who hitherto have not been parts of our population or subject to our laws, and have committed therefore, no crime within our State-would have been rejected; and when, by a small majority, it was annouced by the count as carried I confess I was surprised. Mr. President, if there be in our own population any considerable number of persons who, without the excuses of popular agitation and fervor which obtained in the States that have been carried into actual rebellion, have given voluntary aid to the rebellion they certainly long before this should have been prosecuted, if not for treason, at least under some of the minor offenses punishable by the laws of the United States. I must consider therefore, that in the mind of the Convention and in the mind of the people of this State, if this clause shall be adopted, with the purpose of its having a practical operation, it must be intended, to reach, either for the purpose of repelling from our community or for the purpose of disfranchising, if they should settle among us, emigrants from other States, who there have been engaged in the rebellion. I do not, Mr. President, consider that it is fairly within the province of proscription,-even if proscription should be rightfully indulged in towards classes without prosecution, trial and conviction-thus to proscribe citizens of other States, who while such citizens shall have committed offenses of any complexion whatever. Least of all, Mr. President, am I disposed to place myself on the record as having refused to disfranchise deserters in our own population, and cowardly fugitives from the duty of soldiers in our own population, and having limited my proscription for faults in times passed by, to those who shall become members of this community, by removing from those States where alike the occasion and commission of the proscribed offense occurred. Here the gavel fell, the gentleman's time having expired. Mr. FERRY —I rise to inquire whether it would be in order to make a motion to amend this proposition? The PRESIDENT —The Chair would inform the gentleman that two amendments are already pending. Mr. FIELD -I would inquire whether it is in order to offer on amendment? The PRESIDENT - The Chair would inform the gentleman that two amendments are already pending. The question was then put on the amendment of Mr. A. J. Parker, and it was declared adopted by the following vote. Ayes-Messrs. A. F. Allen, Alvord, Andrews, Archer, Armstrong, Baker, Barker, Barnard, Barto, Beals. Beckwith, Bell, Bergen, Bickford, Bowen, E. Brooks, E. A. Brown, W. C Brown, Carpenter. Cassidy, Champlain. Chesebro, Church, Clinton, Cochran, Colahan, Comstock, Conger, Corning, Curtis, Duganne, C. C. Dwight, T. W. Dwight, Ely, Endress, Evarts, Ferry, Flagler, Folger Francis, Fullerton, Garvin, Graves, Greeley, Gross, Hardenburgh, Harris, Hatch, Hiscock, Hitchman, Houston, Huntington, Hutchins, Jarvis, Kernan, Krum, Landon, Larremore, Law, A. R. Lawrence, M. H. Lawrence, Livingston, Loew, Lowrey, Ludington, Magee, Masten, Mattice, Merritt, Merwin, Monell, More, Morris, Murphy, Nelson, Opdyke, Paige, A. J. Parker, Potter, President, Rathbun, Reynolds, Robertson, Rogers, Rolfe, Roy, A. D. Russell, Schell, Schoonmaker, Seymour, Sheldon, Sherman, Smith, Spencer, Stratton, Tappen, M. I. Townsend, S. Townsend, Tucker, Van Campen, Van Cott, Veeder, Verplanck, Wakeman, Weed, Wickham, Williams, Young-108. Nroes-Messrs. Axtell, Ballard, Beadle, E. P. Brooks, Case, Clark, Cooke, Corbett, Eddy, Far. num, Field, Fowler, Frank, Fuller, Goodrich, Gould, Grant, Hadley, Hammond, Hand, Hitchcock, Kinney, Lapham, A. Lawrence, Lee, McDonald, Merrill, Miller, Pond, Prindle, Prosser, Root, Rumsey, Seaver, Wales.-35. Mr. TAPPEN - I offer the following amendment to the second section: Strike out the words "right of suffrage," wherever they occur, and inserting in lieu thereof the words "elective franchise." Mr. TAPPEN -I shall not detain the Convention by remarks on my particular amendment. There has been abundance of discussion in this Convention as to the right of suffrage as distinguished from the elective franchise. Gentlemen have gone into the question of natural rights and of individual rights, but no word of mine would affect the subject in any manner. I think it is right in substance, and right in spirit, and in accordance with the privilege we are now disposing of. Mr. MERRILL - With the same "regard for the landmarks of the past" which the gentleman who has offered this amendment [Mr. Tappen] manifested when he made substantially the same motion early in this discussion, I cannot favor the proposition. When the titles of the committees were read the gentleman moved to substitute " the elective franchise" for "the right of suffrage," and referred to the action of the Convention of 1846 as sustaining his choice of phraseology. But reference to that "landmark" shows precisely the opposite use of words; and, reverencing "the fathers," I must prefer the term they uniformly employed, namely: "the right of suffrage." The question was put on the amendment of Mr. Tappen, and it was declared lost. Mr. VEEDER -I move to amend the second section as follows: Strike out all after the words "New York" in line eighteen, and insert in lieu thereof the following: "Laws shall be passed for punishing and for depriving of the right of suffrage, persons who shall make or be interested in any bet or Wager dependent upon the result of any election." Mr. VEEDER- The committee will observe the words I prooose to strike out are so broad in 556 their character and in their import, that it will practically exclude any political organization from holding any meeting, or having even a general committee. The committee will observe the words are "and excluding on challenge persons who shall pay or contribute, or agree to pay or contribute, or who shall receive or agree to receive any money or valuable thing to promote the election of any particular candidate or ticket." Thus, any public meeting called, speakers invited, expenses incurred for music, or for any other purpose of getting together a company for the purposes of an election, the objects of which are undoubtedly for the advancement of some particular ticket or candidate, are entirely precluded from any such purpose whatever; and I submit the balance of the section is quite broad enough, that precedes this proposition. I propose to cover all possible cases of corruption at the ballot box, thus leaving in the provision which excludes parties from voting that have made any bet or wager. Mr. NELSON-I desire to amend the section, or offer a substitute for it, so that it will read as follows: " Laws shall be passed for punishing and for depriving of the right of suffrage, or excluding on challenge, persons who shall corruptly pay or contribute or thus agree to pay or contribute, or who shall corruptly receive or thus agree to receive any money, property or valuable thing to promote the election of any candidate or ticket, or who shall make or be interested in any bet or wager dependent upon the result of any election. The payment of the expenses of printing, of the circulation of papers and documents previous to any election, are excepted from the operation of this section." Mr. NELSON-I offer this amendment, and it seems to come in connection with the amendment proposed by the gentleman from Kings [Mr. Veeder], for this reason. In the statute of the State the purity of elections, to secure the provision is as follows: "Whoever shall pay or contribute any money to promote the election of any particular person or ticket." Our statute provision says, ' promote the election of any person or ticket." The provision of this instrument is "to promote the election of any particular candidate or ticket,"so that you will see the only change between our statute and the provision in this instrument is the change of the word " candidate " for " person." Under the provision of the statute, as it existed in the State, the Supreme Court in the case of Jackson v. Waicr, which was a case of allowing a log cabin to fsta.d in a certain place until after election, the agreement was like this "You allow this log cabin to remain until the day after election for the use of the whig party, and if not taken down I will be personally responsible to pay you one thousand dollars." In a suit brought upon that contract, the question arose whether it came within the prohibition of the statute. "Was it a contract," the court asked, " to promote the election of any person or ticket?" Judge Bronson, in delivering the opinion, although the man lost his money, although it was not a corrupt purpose, used this language: "The statute, after forbidding several things, declares that money shall not be contributed ' for any other purpose intended to promote an election of any particular person or ticket.' It requires no argument to prove that this money was to be paid to promote the election of particular persons, to wit, General Harrison and the whig candidates for Congress, etc.; and a particular ticket, to wit, the electoral ticket in favor of General Harrison for President, and the ticket for whig members of Congress, etc. The parties intended to accomplish the very thing which the statute declares to be illegal. No one can wink so. hard as not to see it." * * * " It is said that the statute only forbids the contribution of money for corrupt purposes. But the statute says nothing about corruption. It declares that the thing shall not be done. With two specified exceptions, it provides that money ' intended to promote an election' shall not be contributed. The Legislature evidently thought that the most effectual way ' to preserve the purity of elections,' was to keep them free from the contaminating influence of money." In the court of errors, in 7th Hill, the judgment in this case was affirmed by a tie vote of the court. The question was then put on the amendment of Mr. Nelson, and, on a division, it was declared carried by a vote of sixty-one to thirty. Mr. SPENCER —I offer the following amendment to the substitute, by adding at the end of line twelve the following: "And every person who shall willfully and corruptly swear or affirm falsely on such challenge, shall be deemed guilty of willful and corrupt perjury." I am opposed to including in the Constitution of the State a code of criminal law. But, if it is to be there, I think it. necessary. and essential that it should be so complete that it may be effectual. We have, as this section now stands, provided that the elector who is challenged for certain causes, shall be required to swear; but it is not provided by the same section, or elsewhere in the Constitution, so that any penalty may be affixed to false swearing, nor is there any statute law of the State which would punish false swearing in that particular, the only provision being, upon this subject, that wherever an oath may be required by any officer, judicial, executive, or administrative, a false oath taken before such officer shall be deemed perjury. It is to be doubted, at least, whether this provision of the Constitution can be so construed that it can be said that the officer is authorized to require an oath, but it is only to be taken by the elector as a condition for the allowance of his vote. Mr. C. C. DWIGHT-I quite agree with the views of the gentleman who has just taken his seat,,and I desire to say it is my purpose, when it shall be in order, and I have attempted for sonia time to get the floor for that purpose, to offer the following amendment, which I shall read as a part of my remarks, as an amendment to the amendment of the gentleman from Steuben [Mr. Spencer]. The PRESIDENT-The Chair would inform the gentleman that his amendment is now admissible. Mr. BARKER-I rise to a question of order, that two amendments are now pending. The PRESIDENT-The motion of the gentleman from Kings [Mr.Yeeder] has been disposed of. 557 Mr. VEEDER-The Chair will recollect that is precisely identical with that employed by the my motion is to strike out. gentleman from Schenectady [Mr. Landon], which Mr. BARKER-I am very glad the gentleman forms the first part of this section. That is to introduced this amendment, although I shall vote say, you have first put into the Constitution a law against it, for I think it will tend to bring to the forbidding, and denouncing a penalty for certain attention of this Convention how unnecessary it is offenses against the franchise, and then you have to embrace in the Constitution merely legislative gone on and authorized the Legislature to pass provisions. A Constitution, as I understand it, is laws to precisely the same effect. My amendment, an instrument that creates a government, and that it will be observed, leaves in the section a constigovernment makes, expounds, and executes the tutional provision for challenge at the polls, for law. Now, I apprehend there is no gentle- any act of bribery either in giving or receiving, man in this Convention but believes that the offering to give or offering to receive, etc., and it Legislature, which we authorize, can define then authorizes the Legislature, by appropriate the crime of perjury just as they should legislation, to enforce all these important providefine and make the laws which we are intending sions to secure the purity of the elective franchise, to incorporate in this section. There are a hun- so far as legislation can accomplish it. dred lawyers in this Convention, and yet there Mr. FOLGER - The debate has shown so much are not enough of them to expound and explain as this, that there is a unanimous desire to reach the section of the Constitution which we are at and redress the evils complained of here, and it this hour making. It is confusion worse con- has also shown another thing, that there is a disfounded, and as soon as we begin to vote down trust of the Legislature, which should have the these senseless, unmeaning amendments we will power to enact laws to secure that end. I think be whero we can begin to arrive at an under- that distrust is unfounded. I think if we look standing, and get clear and concise language in back to the requirements of the Constitution of the Constitution which we are making. 1846, and the legislation succeeding it, that we The PRESIDENT.-The Chair took the decision shall find that a Legislature never refused to pass of the Secretary on that matter. laws to secure the purity of elections, going as far Mr. VI'IEDER-I now move to strike out lines as they had constitutional power to do. Now, twenty-six, twenty-seven and twenty-eight, which then, let us compromise on this ground. Let us are connected, but if the other is to prevail, the place some enactments which shall be clear and provision inserted on the motion of the gentleman lucid in the Constitution, and leave it to the coming from Dutchess [Mr. Nelson], perhaps it is better Legislature to enact laws to carry it out; not only to have it in, and I therefore ask leave to withdraw leave it to them, but make it their imperative duty so far as it extends to those three last lines, at the next session after the Constitution to pass Mr. Veeder's motion was accordingly withdrawn. such laws. And I have prepared a section which Mr. SPENCER-For the purpose of allowing I propose to offer at the proper time, and which is an amendment to be offered which will cover as follows: the whole ground in this section, I withdraw the SEC. 2. The Legislature at the session thereof amendment proposed by me. next after the adoption of this Constitution shall Mr. C. C. DWIGHT-If the Secretary will be enact laws excluding from the right of suffrage kind enough to read the amendment which I have idiots, lunatics, and all persons who have been offered, I desire to say one word in regard to it. or may be convicted of bribery or of any infaThe SECRETARY proceeded to read the mous crime; and for depriving every person who amendment, as follows: shall make, or become directly or indirectly interStrike out all after line twelve and insert, " The ested in any bet or wager depending upon the Legislature shall have power by appropriate legis- result of any election, of the right to vote at such lation to enforce the provisions of this section election. It shall also, at the same session, and and to preserve and secure the purity and freedom from time to time, enact laws for preserving the of elections. purity of elections, and for depriving, upon chalMr. C. C. DWIGHT-It will be seen, I think, lenge at the polls, every person who shall violate that this amendment accomplishes the object of such laws of the right to vote at an election. the amendment offered by the gentleman Mr. C. C. DWIGHT - I accept the amendment from Steuben [Mr. Spencer], in authorizing offered by the gentleman from Ontario [Mr. Folthe Legislature, by appropriate legislation, ger], and I will withdraw the amendment offered to enforce the provisions of this article. by me in order to allow the gentleman from OnSuch legislation appropriate to that point tario [Mr. Folger] to offer his. would be the passage of a law making the Mr. FOLGER-I offer the following amendviolation of an oath prescribed by that section, ment as a substitute for the second section: perjury. It also accomplishes very fully the de- SEC. 2. The Legislature, at the session thereof sign of the gentleman from Erie [Mr. Masten] in next after the adoption of this Constitution, shall the amendment offered by him, and which is now enact laws excluding from the right of suffrage incorporated in this section, but which will be idiots, lunatics, and all persons who have been or struck out by this amendment, to wit, to authorize may be convicted of bribery or of any infamous the Legislature, by appropriate legislation, to en- crime; and for depriving every person who shall force the preceding provisions of this section; and make, or become directly or indirectly interested I think that no gentleman has failed to observe, in any bet or wager depending upon the result of who has examined this section as a whole, that any election, of the right to vote at such election. the language employed in the latter part of the It shall also, at the same session, and from time section by the gentleman from Erie [Mr. Masten] to time, enact laws for preserving the purity of 558 elections, and for depriving, upon challenge at the polls, every person who shall violate such laws, of the right to vote at an election. The PRESIDENT - If there is no objection, the amendment will be received as a substitute for the entire second section. Mr. MURPHY - My objection to this amendment is to the latter part of it. I concur in the views which have been expressed by the gentleman from Ontario [Mr. Folger], that we may so far leave to the Legislature the enactment of laws as provided in the first part of his proposition. But the latter part does not restrict the Legislature to pass laws upon such specific points as we have thought worthy of consideration in that respect, or as requiring some enactment, constitutional in its character. He provides generally in the latter part of his amendment, that the Legislature may pass laws for securing the purity of the elective franchise. Where and how far may the Legislature go under such a general provision as that? Is it not our duty to point out in what particulars this franchise shall be protected, and to require the Legislature to pass laws for that purpose, not for the general purpose of securing the purity of the elective franchise? Under that they may disfranchise everybody. Securing the purity of the elective franchise will enable them to pass any kind of law they may deem necessary for that purpose, which may act very harshly and not as intended by this Convention. Let us see specifically in what way they may pass laws for the purpose of securing the elective franchise, and not leave it to them to judge what shall be deemed necessary by them to secure that franchise. I move, therefore, to strike out the last paragraph of the gentleman's amendment. Mr. PAIGE -The objection I propose to this subject is, that it strikes out from this article the right of challenging a voter at the polls. In my judgment, there are but two effective remedies for this crying evil of bribery and corruption at elections. One is the right of challenging a voter for offering to purchase a vote, and putting him upon his oath, and the other is to impose the oath upon the successful candidate, that he has not used money for any corrupt purpose to secure his election. Sir, the result of it is to strike o.t of the Constitution where it should be, that provision in the original report of the Committee on Suffrage of allowing a challenge to the voter upon the ground of having sold or purchased a vote. Mr. SMITH-I trust the amendment will not prevail. This corruption has reached a point where the people absolutely demand that there shall be a remedy provided in the organic law. They are not willing to turn this matter over to the Legislature. They lack confidence in the Legislature. They believe that for years back the Legislature of this State has been corrupt. They are not willing to trust men to enact laws against bribery and corruption, who have themselves secured their places by corrupt practices. I agree fully with the gentleman from Schenectady [Mr. Paige] that this provision, which enables you to challenge a man at the polls, and there put him upon his oath, is one of the most efficient provisions that can be made to meet the exigency. It is self-executing. It is not subject to be defeated by the inefficiency or corruption of courts. It does not fail from a lack of evidence, delay, or want of the necessary machinery to secure the conviction of a party. But the question is decided at once, upon the oath of the challenged party, and before he is permitted to vote. I would not, by any means, lose this provision. On the contrary, I am in favor of adding to it another provision, making it the duty of the Legislature to enact such laws as may become necessary, not only to carry out this provision, but in other respects to purify our elections. I beg that we may not turn this whole matter over to the Legislature; for, by so doing, I greatly fear that we should fail to obtain what is absolutely necessary to secure the purity of our elections, and the stability of our government. Mr. RUMSEY-Is an amendment in order now? The PRESIDENT —An amendment is in order.!Mr. RUMSEY-Then, sir, I propose the following amendment to the amendment offered by Mr. Folger. SEC. 2. No person who shall receive, expect, or offer to receive, pay, or offer or promise to pay, contribute, or offer or promise to contribute to another to be paid or used, any money, or other valuable thing, or make any promise to influence or as a compensation or reward for a vote to be given or to be withheld at an election, shall vote at such election; and upon challenge for such cause, the person so challenged shall, before the inspectors receive his vote, swear or affirm, before such inspectors, that he has not reeeived, has not offered, does not expect to receive, has not paid, nor offered or promised to pay, contributed, nor offered or promised to contribute to others, to be paid or used, any money or other valuable thing, nor made any promise to influence or as a compensation or reward for a vote, to be given or to be withheld at such election. Mr. RUMSEY -I do it for the purpose of having retained in the Constitution, as it shall pass from our hands, this provision, that allows us to challenge for the causes mentioned in the first part of the provision of the gentleman from Schenectady [Mr. Landon]. But I desire to have inserted in that provision, suggested by the gentleman from Schenectady [Mr. Paige], that the officer elected shall swear before he takes his office that he has done nothing to violate the provisions of that section. I will vote for it by way of perfecting the amendment, and leave it to the Legislature to pass such other laws as shall be necessary to guard against other evils which may arise under it, and which we do not now take cognizance of or cannot call to our minds. Mr. GREELEY - I only rise to ask the mover to allow the first twelve lines of this section to stand as they are. The PRESIDENT-The Chair will state what he understands to be the pending proposition. He understands this substitute was received by consent of the Convention for section two. He will receive any amendments. Mr. GREELEY- -It was received, but not adopted. The PRESIDENT - The Chair understands that. The pending amendment is the proposition 559 proposed by the gentleman from Steuben [Mr. Rumsey]. Mr. CHESEBRO - Is another amendment now in order? The PRESIDENT -The Chair will inform the gentleman that another amendment is not in order, as two are now pending. The question was then put on the amendment of Mr. Rumsey, and it was declared carried. Mr. DUGANNE offered the following amendment: Insert at the end of line twelve the words, "or for a nomination of himself or any other candidate at such election." Mr. DUGANNE -I am more impressed every day that I live wtih the necessity of providing that corruption shall be intimidated or repressed in the matter of nominations as well -as in the matter of elections. It is thence, generally, that evil springs. In a county where a nomination is equivalent to an election, the venal and the corrupt man has only to see to it in the caucus that his nomination is successful, and if he can succeed in influencing by any means that nomination, an election is sure. I wish to strike at this generic evil-I do not wish to leave it to a challenge at the polls, of the voters. I wish to strike at the corruption which makes the candidate, which sets him before the people, and which commands the people to vote for him blindfolded - Mr. MILLER - I rise to a point of order; that this amendment just offered, refers to a part of the section which we have just stricken out. The PRESIDENT - The Chair will inform the gentleman he is not in order. Mr. KERNAN - I submit we can hardly recognize in the Constitution, caucuses and nominating conventions. Mr. DUGANNE -I ask the gentleman if we cannot recognize corruption in the Constitution? Mr. WEED -By a statute of the State, any corruption in convention, or nominating caucuses, or anything of that kind is punished now,I think, and made a felony, or pretty near felony. The question was then put on the amendment of Mr. Duganne, and it was declared lost. Mr. CHESEBRO —I had drawn for the purpose of submitting t tthe Convention a proposition substantially like the one offered by my colleague from Ontario [Mr. Folger] embracing essentially his amendment in section two of this report, and I will send it to the Secretary to be read. I move it as a substitute for section two as proposed by the gentleman from Ontario [Mr. Folger]. The PRESIDENT - It cannot be received until the amendment of the gentleman from Kings [Mr. Veeder] is disposed of. Mr. HARRIS —I move the adoption of the following amendment as an amendment to the amendment offered by Mr. Folger: Strike out the words "idiots, lunatics and," in the amendment of the gentleman from Ontario [Mr. Folger]. Mr. MERRILL —I would inquire whether it does not require a motion to reconsider that, it having been acted upon? The PRESIDENT —The Chair understands not. The Chair understands that the substitute of the gentleman from Ontario [Mr. Folger], was received by consent of the Convention, and now stands in all respects as section 2 originally stood. The proposition of the gentleman from Albany [Mr. Harris] is in order. Mr. HARRIS - As I have already said. I desire that this Convention should address itself to such amendments of the Constitution as experience has developed to be necessary or wise. No man has ever known an idiot to vote. The gentleman from Westchester [Mr. Greeley] spoke the, other day about a lunatic having attempted to vote. Mr. GREELEY - "Having voted "Mr. HARRIS - " Having voted," he says: but I apprehend that that is a single case. To my mind this provision is belittling the Constitution in attempting to exclude idiots and lunatics from voting, when no man has any apprehension that they will ever do any damage in that respect. It seems to me to be an idle thing, to require the Legislature to go on and inquire as to the sanity of every individual. Every man who is familiar with legal proceedings knows that it is a pretty difficult thing to determine whether a man is insane or not, and I have sometimes thought there were very few men whose minds were in all respects entirely sound. To determine whether a man is a lunatic or not seems to be very objectionable. I hope those words will be stricken out. They are unnecessary. No man supposes the purity of elections will be secured or promoted by retaining these words in the Constitution. Mr. McDONALD -In regard to the propriety of excluding insane persons, there can be no doubt. The only objection the gentleman from Albany [Mr. Harris] makes is this, that it is impossible to tell who are idiots and who lunatics in some cases. We admit that. In my own town they have a lunatic there, whom one party makes vote one year and another party another year just as they happen to get possession of him, and there is no possibility of ruling him out. I live in a town where the election is pretty close; if it should be turned by one vote, then the lunatic would elect the whole ticket. I do not believe. in that. Let us declare our position plainly; let us not be afraid to say lunatics and idiots should not vote as we believe, and leave it to the Legislature to find out the mode of determination. I might suggest that it be determined in this way-that no person be excluded unless the board of registry unanimously exclude him, and they would not exclude any one about whom there was any doubt. It seems to me this provision should be retained, and although it would not be, yet in some cases it may turn out that lunatics and idiots may elect the whole ticket when it is elected by a small majority, and without this provision there is no mode of prohibiting lunatics or idiots from voting. Mr. ROBERTSON-I would be glad to know where any authority is found for an idiot or lunatic to exercise any civil right or perform any act for the benefit or injury of others recognizable by law; and when the law has been changed by which every inspector of an election in this State has always had the power to reject the vote of any animal destitute of reason, al 560 though he presents himslf before him in the form visions of law, shall be excluded from registration of a man, for the purpose of offering a vote, is as voters." there any inability of the law of this State to ex- Mr. DUGANNE-I do not wish to argue this. clude idiots and lunatics, and will inspectors of I sufficiently stated' my reasons for offering such election be so derelict to their duty as to receive an amendment some days ago, but I wish to know the vote of a human being in that condition the sense of the Convention on what I regard a who would undertake to exercise this right of very important reform, and I respectfully ask the suffrage by doing a mere imitative act, which ayes and noes. might be performed as well by well trained ani- Not a sufficient number seconding the call the mals as by man, in full possession of his facul- ayes and noes were refused. ties. To be a citizen a human being must be pos- Mr. CHESEBRO —I was about to state that I sessed of reason. The mere human form does had drawn an amendment which I believed comnot give citizenship. The right of political citi- prised all that is necessary for section two of zenship is suspended during the temporary this article. I agree with the gentleman from absence of reason; the mere possibility of a Chautauqua [Mr. Barker] in the remarks he has return of reason, joined to the ties of humanity, made in regard to the proceedings of this Convenconstitutes the only ground for including idiots tion for the last few days, that we have been and lunatics in the body politic. It is absurd to engaged here in a system of legislation and have imagine a public officer elected by the votes (so nearly forgotten the duty which is imposed upon called) of the inmates of a mad-house. The very us as members of this Convention. If we are to word " vote" implies a rational selection, and I frame a fundamental law it must be in view of the see no reason for excluding those destitute of fact that the Legislature, is to carry out by laws, reason from voting by a constitutional pro- the Constitution which we shall establish. vision. The SECRETARY proceeded to read the Mr. McDON ALD - I wish to call the attention amendment of Mr. Chesebro, as follows: of the gentleman from New York [Mr. Robertson] SEC. 2. Laws shall be passed, excluding from to the first section; " every male citizen of the age the right of suffrage all persons who have been 01 of twenty-one." I suppose that would include an may be convicted of bribery, larceny or of any idiot. infamous crime, and for depriving every person Mr. CONGER - I will draw the attention of the who shall by any act, directly or indirectly impair Convention very briefly to what is proposed in the or corrupt the purity or freedom of any election, fourth section which follows, which is precisely or become directly or indirectly interested in any what is in the fourth section of the Constitution as bet or wager depending upon the result of any it now stands; "Laws shall be adopted for ascer- election, from the right to vote at such election; taining by proper proofs: the citizens who shall be and every such offense shall be made a ground of entitled to the right of suffrage." The gentleman challenge at such election. who inserted this clause in regard to idiots and The PRESIDENT-The Chair will inform the lunatics merely anticipated what will follow in the gentleman from Ontario, [Mr. Chesebro] that unsubsequent clause. In regard to this whole mat- less there be further propositions to amend the ter permit me to say to the Convention that this substitute of the gentleman from Ontario [Mr. process of legislation has been sufficiently exten- Folger] it will now be considered. The Secretary ded. When the Convention will have the op- informs the Chair that the amendment of the portunity of looking at the amendment proposed, by gentleman from Kings [Mr. Murphy] has not yet my honorable friend from Ontario [Mr. Chesebro], been passed upon. I think they will be satisfied that every constitu- The question was then put on the adoption of tional provision will be compassed by his amend- the amendment of Mr. Murphy, and, on a division, ment, and then we will have substantially the it was declared adopted, by a vote of 52 to 43. second section of the Constitution of 1846, as was The PRESIDENT - The Chair will first state proposed to be amended by the Legislature of the proposition as he understands it. It is to 1853. with all the suitable safeguards enabling substitute the amendment which was now read this Convention to provide for the exclusion of for the substitute of the gentleman from Fulton improper votes by the right of challenge. [Mr. Smith], as amended. The question was put on the adoption of the Mr. A. J. PARKER- If it be in order, I will amendment of Mr. Harris, and, on a division, move to reconsider the last vote taken. it was declared carried, by a vote of 76 to Objection being made, the motion was laid on 29. the table. Mr. DUGANNE-Is an amendment now in Mr. CHESEBRO-Now, on the adoption of order? the amendment of the gentleman from Kings [Mr. The PRESIDENT-Amendments are now in Murphy] to the substitute offered by my colleague order. from Ontario [Mr. Folger], it will be seen that Mr. DUGANNE-I offer the following amend- our propositions are substantially alike, and I canment, to the amendment of Mr. Folger, by adding not from my recollection of the reading of the thereto the following: amendment offered by the gentleman from On"And the Legislature may provide by law that tario [Mr. Folger] see much difference between records shall be kept under proper restrictions, by them except that mine is a little more brief. I am the police authorities of districts or cities, of all opposed to any addition to this proposition I have persons known by them to be engaged in illicit made, for the reason that has been so well suggested pursuits hostile to the community; and persons on this floor this morning, of an opposition to anyso engaged and being so recorded, under due pro- thing like legislation, I think we have had enough 561 discussion now to convince the Convention that first twelve lines of this second section, and I time has been wasted. We are here to frame a trust we shall not abandon it, for I think the fundamental law, but not to enact laws for the whole merit of the section rests on that. I hope punishment of crime; but the proposition of the that this substitute may be voted down, and I gentleman from Steuben [Mr. Rumsey], which has only regret that the amendment of the gentleman received an affirmative vote, as an amendment to from Kings [Mr. Murphy] was adopted, as it the proposition of my colleague from Ontario [Mr. strikes out another important portion. Folger] is, in my judgment, nothing more than Mr. SEYMOUR - It seems to be conceded on legislation. If gentlemen will turn to the statute all hands, that something is necessary to be done book they will see that nearly all the offenses either under the law or the Constitation, to stay which are charged to have been committed against that flood of corruption which every one deplores. the purity of elections, are already provided for in It has been the effort of this Convention to prethe statute book, and that many of the proposi- pare and modify in this second section, provisions tions which we have been discussing for many days that we hope and believe will do it. Now, sir, are now classed as misdemeanors and felonies. I am not prepared to say that these proMy proposition leaves this whole matter of pun- visions are in the exact language that would ishment of offenses against the purity of elections, be best; I am not prepared to say but that thiey to the Legislature -where it legitimately belongs, might be improved, and I am willing to wait and Mr. GREELEY-I wishto inquire if this is an- permit that committee which has been resolved other proposition to strike out the first twelve upon this morning, to examine and if possible imlines. prove them without losing the benefit of their The PRESIDENT-This is a proposition as an efficacy. I believe we need something in the Conentire substitute for the proposition of the gen- stitution, and I am unwilling to trust any longer tleman from Ontario [Mr. Folger]. to the wisdom, at least, of the Legislature to proMr. GREELEY-If it is to strike out the first vide the remedy. We have seen this stream of twelve lines, I hope it will be voted down. corruption rolling through this State at every Mr. MASTEN-I desire to say a few words on general election, for a period of more than ten or this subject. I find myself somewhat responsible twenty years, and we have now confessedly, upon for the confusion in which this second section the statute book, no provision that can in the v seems to be. In the Committee of the Whole I least restrain it. I shall regret if this Convention maintained the doctrine which has been main- shall strike out or shall pass any substitute tained here this morning, that we should not put a for these twelve lines, that embody so much code of laws in the Constitution, but only confer toward preserving the purity of the elections in certain general powers in clear and explicit lan- this State; and I hope, sir, that this repeated guage. I offered a substitute for the whole sec- effort to accomplish that result will fail. tion substantially like the one now offered by the Mr. M. I. TOWNSEND called for the ayes and gentleman from Ontario [Mr. Chesebro]; I dis- noes. covered that it would not be carried in Committee A sufficient number seconding the call, the ayes of the Whole, and I therefore had to add it to the and noes were ordered. amendment proposed by the gentleman from The question was then put upon the substitute Schenectady [Mr. Landon]. If this amendment offered by Mr. Chesebro, and it was declared lost should not be carried, if I can get an opportunity, by the following vote: I will move to strike out from the section this Ayes-Messrs. Chesebro, Church, Conger, Harmatter I myself put in and perfect the section by denburgh, Masten, Mattice, More, Spencer, Veradding a sentence. planck-9. Mr. A. J. PARKER-I hope this substitute of Noes-Messrs. A. F. Allen, C. L. Allen, Alvord, the gentleman from Ontario [Mr. Chesebro] may Archer, Armstrong, Axtell, Baker, Ballard, Barnot be adopted. I do not agree with him at all, in nard, Barto, Beadle, Beals, Beckwith, Bergen, the opinion he expresses, that we therefore waste Bickford, Bowen, E. P. Brooks, E. A. Brown, W. our' time in matters of legislation. On the other C. Brown, Carpenter, Cassidy, Champlain, Clark, hand, I think we are making the best possible Clinton, Cochran, Comstock, Corbett, Coming, use of our time, and that we have made great Curtis, Daly, C. C. Dwight, T. W. Dwight, Eddy, progress yesterday and to-day in framing an Evarts, Farnum, Ferry, Field, Flagler, Fowler article on this subject which perhaps may be Francis, Frank, Fuller, Fullerton, Garvin, Goodacceptable to the people. At all events, we are rich, Gould, Grant, Graves, Greeley, Gross, Hamwasting no time. Now, the effect of adopting mond, Hland, Hitchcock, Hitchman, Houston, this substitute will be that we will lose the first Huntington, Hutchins, Kernan, Kinney, Krum, twelve lines of this section as it now stands. Law, A. Lawrence, A. R. Lawrence, M. H. LawMr. CHESEBRO - Cannot the Legislature as rence, Lee, Livingston, Lowrey, Ludington, Magee, well punish for this crime as for any other? McDonald, Merrill, Merritt, Miller, Morris, Murphy Mr. A. J. PARKER-I will notsaytheyhave not Opdyke, Paige, A. J. Parker, Pond, Potter, Presithe power to punish, but I am doubtful whether dent, Prindle, Prosser, Reynolds, Rogers, Rolfe, they will do so. I am not one of those who are Root, Rov, Schoonmaker, Seaver, Seymour, Swilling to trust to the Legislature. They have vester, Sheldon, Sherman, Smith, Stratton, Tappen, had the power heretofore but failed to use it, and M. I. Townsend, S. Townsend, Van Cott, Veeder, I am not willing to trust them in the future. I Wakeman, Wales, Wickham, Williams, Young am confident thut no provision can be drawn -106. either by the Convention or the Legislature more Mr. AXTELL-I offer the following amei full or more precise or more explicit- than the men. 71 562 The SECRETARY proceeded to read. the under which this Convention is assembled. Some amendment, as follows: gentlemen are greatly alarmed at that terrible The Legislature may pass laws excluding from Latin phrase, ex post facto. That was the phrase the right of suffrage all persons who have desert- that was hurled at us all the way through the ed or may desert from the military or naval ser- rebellion. It was ex post facto to do this and to vice of the United States in time of war, all do that. With some classes it is always ex post persons who have left or may leave this State facto to do right. I suppose the compelling of in time of war for the purpose of avoiding con- Robert E. Lee to surrender was ex post facto, and scription into the military service of the United unconstitutional. It was done, however. States, and all persons who have been volun- Mr. GRANT - When this subject was under tarily engaged in rebellion against the United consideration by an amendment proposed by the States. the gallant Colonel from Clinton [Mr. Axtell] - Mr. AXTELL -I have not offered this amend- Mr. VERPLANCK- I rise to a question of ment in behalf of the bleeding eagle and I trust order-that this is a change in the phraseology that " the quality of mercy " will not be badly simply between the words " may" and " shall." "strained" if it shall be adopted. This whim- Now suppose this amendment shall be voted pering about " mercy" to men who have forfeited down, and I should rise and propose that the every claim to citizenship, is not inspired by the Legislature, upon the application of ten citizens, spirit of true mercy, and its only practical effect might do the same thing, would that be a differis to degrade citizenship. It says that there is ent proposition? And then somebody else might no difference between a manly performance of propose it on some other application; that of the duties of citizenship and a cowardly shrink- some distant State, for instance, and thus it ing away from them. might be brought up interminably. Now, I think Mr. MURPHY —I rise to a point of order. the duty of the gentleman was to have moved to This Convention has by a vote disposed substan- change the word when it was under consideratially of this resolution. tion in the committee, and I think, therefore, it is The PRESIDENT-The Chair thinks the out of order at this time. point of order well taken. The PRESIDENT-The Chair must respect. Mr AXTELL- There is this difference. This fully differ from the gentleman from Erie [Mr. provides that the Legislature may pass laws; Verplanck]. He thinks the amendment is difthe other amendment which was offered in Comn- ferent. One is permissive and the other is impermittee of the Whole required that the Legislature ative. shall passlaws. Mr. BARKER- I rise to a point of order. The PRESIDENT -If there be that difference, This has been once voted down, and the introthe Chair will recognize the distinction. duction of the word " shall" in place of the word Mr. AXTELL -No people can afford thus to " may" does not change the meaning. There is degrade the elective franchise. No people can no power above the Legislature which can comafford to strike such a blow at the pride of citi- pel them to act, consequently there is no difference zenship. The very life of this nation depends in legal effect between the words " shall" and upon cherishing in the minds of the people a "may." sense of the sacredness and dignity of the duties The PRESIDENT -The Chair having received and privileges of citizenship. There must be cul- the amendment will allow it to take the usual tivated that public virtue, that sensibility of prin- course, unless there is an appeal. Does the genciple, that "chastity of honor"- as some one tleman appeal from the decision of the Chair? has called it - which feels a stain like a wound; Mr. BAKER -No, sir. that which is the unbought grace of life, the nurse Mr. GRANT - The gentleman from Ulster [Mr. of manly sentiment and heroic enterprise, the real Hardenburgh], said it came with an ill grace from defense of the nation-that spirit which led out one whose constituents are anti-renters to speak our triumphant heroes to their baptism of blood in favor of this amendment. I was sorry to hear and their death of honor, that which marshaled that fling made at so large a number of voters of our mighty hosts, who were ready to do and to this State; gentlemen who are citizens not only of die that the nation might live. To refuse to in- Delaware but of Schoharie, Albany, Rensselaer corporate this amendment is to strike a blow at and Columbia county, comprising a large portion this spirit of honor. It is in effect to say that of the electors of this State, who are men of integthere is no difference, as to the privileges of citi- rity and as honorable, loyal, patriotic and brave, zenship, between the brave man and the coward as any within its borders. -between the man who keeps his oath and the The PRESIDENT —The Chair must call the man who has perjured his soul. Sir, the military gentleman to order. He must discuss the pending is perhaps the most sacred of oaths. Every sol- question. dier has sworn an oath as solemn as that regis- Mr. GRANT —This amendment proposes, not tered in Heaven by that immortal man, whose that deserters shall be disfranchised,not that rebels words are emblazoned in our sight, an oath to de- shall be disfranchised,but it places the whole power fend the nation. The deserter, with this oath hot to disfranchise them or any class of them, in the upon his lips, deserted his colors, perjured hands of the Legislature, giving the Legislature his soul, and left his comrades to be the power to select, in their discretion, the classes overborne for the lack of that service he of deserters the more guilty and dangerous, for inwas sworn to perform. This amendment stance-men who have received thousand dollar is entirely practicable. Men can be challenged bounties, and jumped them ten times; men who and thus excluded from suffrage, as in the law have taken the oath of allegiance to the govern, 563 ment of the United States in the State of New penalty for crime, exclusion from the suffrage, we York, and then deserted their State and the army have given to the Legislature power to designate of the United States, and joined the rebellion. It and punish as crime desertion of the forces of the provides that the Legislature may disfranchise United States in time of war, evasion of the that class. It allows the Legislature to dis- draft in time of war, and giving voluntary aid to franchise the men, if you please, who starved rebellion in time of war. our prisoners, who added to the crime of The PRESIDENT announced the question to treason that of the murder of prisoners of be on the amendment of Mr. Axtell. war by slow, consuming famine; leaving with Mr. AXTELL called for the ayes and noes. the Legislature the entire power to disfran. A sufficient number not seconding the call, the chise and restore, as justice shall dictate. ayes and noes were not ordered. Can there be a doubt but that we should at least The question was then put upon the amendleave authority with the Legislature to disfranchise ment of Mr. Axtell and it was declared lost. the more guilty classes of these offenders against Mr. MASTEN-I offer the following amendthe government? I go farther, and say, that the ment. man who voluntarily engaged in rebellion, and The PRESIDENT-The Chair would inform stabbed at the life of our nation —the man who the gentleman that section No. 2 is not now beviolated his oath of enlistment, deserted his ranks fore the Convention, having been struck out and and fled to the enemy - should be absolutely ex- the amendment of the gentleman from Ontario pelled from any voice in our governmentand forever [Mr. Folger] substituted in its place. disfranchised. And I ask gentlemen on this floor Mr. SPENCER-I now renew my motion to to recollect that as representatives of the people amend the substitute of the gentleman from Onof a State, the great masses of whom are loyal, tario [Mr. Folger]. brave and true; we are making a record on this The SECRETARY proceeded to read the subject, a record to which the friends and enemies amendment as follows: of our free government are looking with interest Amend by adding at the end of line 12 the foland anxiety, a record from which the supporters lowing: and defenders of the Union, and posterity who " And every person who shall willfully and corfollow, may read the estimate in which we hold ruptly swear or affirm on such challenge, shall be cowardice, desertion and treason, the estimate in deemed guilty of willful and corrupt perjury." which we hold integrity, loyalty and bravery. Mr. PRINDLE-I move to insert the word And to recollect that we are, this day, in recom- "falsely " so that it shall read " falsely swear." mending fundamental law to a people fresh from Mr. SPENCER-I accept the amendment; the stern lessons and realities of war, declaring Mr. ROBERTSON-I would like to amend the to the world our judgment as to whether treason substitute of the gentleman from Ontario [Mr. to republican government and desertion from its Folger] by inserting the following amendment: armies are qualities to be rewarded with citizen- The SECRETARY proceeded to read the ship and privileges of franchise. The question amendment, as follows: comes home to us, shall we clothe the traitor, the After the word " election," in the fifth line, indeserter, and the unrepentant rebel, with the sert the words "or employ any threat or other same political power. as the patriots and defenders means to prevent or influence any one from voting of the Union? I implore gentlemen to reflect at such election;" and after the word "election," upon this subject, for our votes must answer this in line twelve, insert the words " and has not grave question. employed any threat or other means to prevent At this point the gavel fell, the gentleman's or influence any one from voting at such election." time having expired. The question was then put on the amendment Mr. EVARTS - It is entirely competent, Mr. of Mr. Robertson, and it was declared lost. President, for the Legislature under the suffrage The PRESIDENT then announced the quesclause as it at present stands before the Conven- tion to be on the amendment offered by Mr. Spention, to make either of the offenses alluded to by cer. the gallant gentleman from Clinton [Mr. Axtell] Mr. KRUM-I oppose that amendment, Mr. a crime, and to carry as one of the consequences of President, because it is entirely unnecessary. It. that crime the loss of suffrage. If there is any has been decided over and over again in the books principle that this Convention has adopted and that, under the statute quoted by the gentleman, will adhere to, it is this, that there shall be no every oath or affirmation falsely taken in a prodouble opportunities of exclusion from the fran- ceeding, when such oath or affirmation is required chise, one under the head of crimes, the other by law, is perjury; and when the oath or affirnma under the name of mere proscription. I shall op- tion shall be taken as required by this section, or pose all efforts to provide for exclusion from the falsely taken, that oath or affirmation is perjury franchise for any less definite, less determinate without anything further being necessary..blemishes of character or conduct, than such as The question was then put on the amendment shall be designated as crimes, and ascertained of Mr. Spencer, and was declared lost. and punished as such, with the single exception Mr. MASTEN -I offer the following amendof the constitutional ground of challenge at an ment. I propose to offer it as a substitute for tho election for bribery.or corruption in reference to amendment of the gentleman from Ontario [Mr. that election which stands, in the opinion of the Folger]. Convention, and in my own, as a proper subject The SECRETARY proceeded to read tho of constitutional provision. When we have de- amendment as follows: S termined that the Legislature mayr affix as, Strike out all after the end of line 12, and insert 564 the following: Laws shall be passed excluding lation changes not from year to year, there is no from the right of suffrage all persons who may necessity for an annual return of the registration by have been or may be convicted of bribery or any the appearance of the voter at the registry poll, in infamous crime, to prevent illegal voting, and to order to be registered. But in your cities, secure the purity and freedom of elections. All where there is a constant changing of populachallenges shall be determined on the oath of the tion, tiding in one day and tiding out the next, person challenged. there is a necessity for a registry every year, in Mr. MASTE - All I shall attempt to do on order to determine who are entitled to vote, and this occasion is to show to the Convention how for that reason I am opposed to the amendment this section will then read, and if gentle- of the gentleman from Erie [Mr. Masten], as men will run their eyes down to the end amended by the gentleman from Kings [Mr. of line 12, they will then find that what is pro- Livingston], because it contemplates having a posed to be added to this: "Laws shall be strict unbroken law throughout the State, without passed excluding from the right of suffrage all permitting these necessary alterations and modifipersons who may have been convicted of bribery cations according to the surrounding circumstances or of any infamous crime, and to prevent illegal of the population which shall be entitled to vote. voting and to secure the purity and freedom of I trust the amendment as it is now, as amended elections; all challenges shall be determined on by the gentlemen from Kings [Mr. Livingston], the oath of the person challenged;" and that will be voted down by this Convention will constitute, if adopted, the whole of section Mr. MATTICE-Cannot the question be divided? 2, unless further amended. I call for a division of the question. Mr. LIVINGSTON-I desire to offer a further The PRESIDENT-The Chair understands the amendment which I think the gentleman will ac- gentleman to call for a division of the question, Cept. so as to first include the proposition of the gentleThe SECRETARY proceeded to read the amend- man from Erie [Mr. Masten]. If there is no ment as follows: objection, the question will be so divided. "But all such laws shall be general and uni- The question was then put upon the first porform in their requirements throughout the State." tion of the amendment of Mr. Masten and it was Mr. MASTEN-I will accept that. declared lost. Mr. SMITH-I would like to say a single word, Mr. LIVINGSTON-Since the main proposition though, perhaps, it is unnecessary. I heartily has been voted down, the section is left as amended approve of this amendment. As the section by the proposition of the gentleman from Ontario, stands without it, the only provision it and I do not see that it is necessary for me to offer contains is the one allowing a challenge this amendment, so I withdraw it. at the polls. There is no provision whatever left The PRESIDENT-It cannot now be withpermitting the Legislature to pass any laws upon drawn, having been acted upon. that subject, and something of the kind is abso- The question was then put upon the second lutely necessary. It seems to me that the amend- portion of the proposition of Mr. Masten, being the ment offered judiciously supplies that defect. amendment cf Mr. Livingston, and it was declared Mr. ALVORD —I do not know but what I lost. would have been perfectly willing to have gone Mr. EVARTS-I rise to suggest a verbal amendfor the amendment of the gentleman from Erie ment to the clause under consideration as proceed[Mr. Masten], as well as the amendment of the ing from the gentleman from Ontario [Mr. Lapgentleman from Ontario [Mr. Folger], and I do ham]. He provides that the Legislature "shall not conceive that there is any particular difference, at its next session pass laws." I move to amend but it is an entirely different proposition now, as so that it may read: " Shall at its next session, amended by the gentleman from Kings [Mr. and may from time to time thereafter pass laws." Livingston], and I do not believe it is understood The question was put on the amendment of Mr. by the body of this Convention. Now, sir, I Evarts, and it was declared carried. hold that so far as it regards all laws affecting the Mr. McDONALD - I propose to amend by adright to exercise the elective franchise they should ding after the amendment of the gentleman from in the main be uniform, while I hold at the same New York [Mr. Evarts] the following: time there may be details in regard to the measur- The SECRETARY proceeded to read the amending out of the registry law, which would be ment as follows: applicable to incorporated cities and villages, that Amend the substitute by inserting after the would not be applicable to the country, and would words " excluding from the right of suffrage'" the result in great damage and detriment to the words "any person who shall violate any procountry, whereas it would not affect injuri-vision of this section." ously the cities. Why, sir, take for instance Mr. McDONALD — The law as it now is prothe law as it at present exists in the cities vides that the only punishment for a person who of New York and Brooklyn. I am in favop violates this section is this-that he shall be deof extending it to every incorporated city of the prived of his vote at that election. My amendState, but I am not in favor of extending that ment proposes that the Legislature shall enact a uniformly to the rural portions of the State, for then law which shall deprive, him of the right of sufit bemes onerous and burdensome, and it becomes frage, so that any person who violates the first in fact and truth, a stifling of the vote of the twelve lines shall be deprived by the Legislature pople. In a rural portion of this State, where of the right of suffrage, after being convicted of men are known throughout the length aud breadth corrupting an elector. The object of it is this: a ft district, eh to th other, and where popu- person will be unwilling to buy the vote of a venal .scoundrel who may the next day go Before a grand.jury and deprive him of the right of suffrage; and that will do more to prevent this corruption than anything else. The question was put on the amendment of Mr. McDonald, and it was declared lost. Mr. VEEDER - I move the Convention do now adjourn. The PRESIDENT announced the appointment of the following Committee of Revision provided for by the resolution of the Convention adopted on motion of Mr. Alvord: Mr. ALVORD, Mr. EVARTS, Mr. TILDEN, Mr. T. W. DWIGHT, Mr. WEED. Mr. MERRITT -I move the committee take a recess until four o'clock. The question was put upon the motion of Mr. Veeder to adjourn, and it was declared lost. The question then recurred upon the motion of Mr. Merritt, and it was declared carried. So the Convention took a recess until four o'clock. AFTERNOON SESSION. The Convention re-assembled at four o'clock. In the absence of the President, Mr. ALVORD, of Onondaga, occupied the chair as President pro tern. Mr. SEAVER-I ask unanimous consent to submit two reports from the Printing Committee. Mr. CORBETT-I object. Mr. VAN CAMPEN-Before we pass to the consideration of section 3 of the report of the Committee on the Right of Suffrage, I desire to call up the motion made by me to reconsider the vote ofThe PRESIDENT pro tem.-The Chair wishes to explain in reference to the reports of the Committee on Printing. It is a matter of necessity that they be received now, in order that the matter referred to in them may be printed during the recess. Mr. CORBETT-In view of the facts stated by the Chair, I withdraw my objectioL Mr. SEAVER from the Committee on Printing, submitted the following Report: Your Committee, to whom was referred the resoldtion for the reprinting of document No. 30, with the amendments of the committee thereto, and that the lines be numbered as in the case of bills reported in the Legislature, respectfully report in favor of the adoption of said resolution, and would recommend that all future reports of committees, embodying proposed amendments to the Constitution be printed in the same manner and therefore submit the following resolution: Resolved, That document No. 30- be reprinted, with the amendments of the committee thereto, and that the lines be numbered as in the case of bills reported in the Legislature. The question was put on agreeing with the report of the committee and it was declared earcarried. Mr. SEAVER from the Committee on Printing, also' submitted the following report: Your committee, to whom was referred the question of printing the petition of the New Yor State Workingmen's Assembly, praying that 1hil Convention will engraft in the proposed new onstitution, to be prepared by this body, certain amendments set forth in said petition for the better protection of the interests of the workingmen of this State, in view of the importance of the reforms suggested, and of the duty of the State, by all just and feasible measures, either of constitutional provision or legislative enactment, to protect and advance the growing interests of this important and deserving class of its citizens, would respectfully report in favor of printing the usual number of copies of said petition; and while your committee are of the opinion that most of the reforms suggested by this intelligent assembly Will fall more properly within the province of statutory enactment, yet we cannot refrain from expressing the hope that, while this Convention will not fail to make all proper provision for protecting and elevating the workingmen of this State, it will also so shape the Constitution to be prepared by them for submission to the people, that future Legislatures may find authority, under its benefit cent provisions, to extend to this class the most ample protection and encouragement consistent with the best interests of all the people of this State. The question was then put on agreeing with the report of the committee, and it was declared carried. The PRESIDENT pro tern.- The Chair is informed by the Secretary that he desires unanimous consent, as Clerk of the House of Assembly, to make a report in compliance with a resolution of the Convention, dated June 26, calling for the titles of bills introduced in the Assembly relating to the city of New York. No objection being made, the report was received and ordered to be printed. Mr. BROOKS-I move that the document reported be referred to the Committee on Cities. The PRESIDENT pro tern.-It will take that reference if there be no objection. The PRESIDENT pro tern. announced the pending question to be on the amendment proposed by Mr. McDonald, by inserting in the substitute after the words " excluding from the right of suffrage " the words, "any person who shall violate any provision of this section." Mr. WEED-My recollection is that a vote was taken on that subject, and it was lost. The PRESIDENT pro tern. - The Secretary informs the Chair that such is not the case. Mr. W. C. BROWN- I wish to offer an amendment to the amendment by adding at the end these words: " and every person violating the provision shall, on conviction, be deprived of the right of suffrage for such a number of years as the court shall determine." I think that would ery effetually remove and prevent the evil spoken of. Mr. McDONALD-I accept the amendment. Mr. POND-It seems to me that it is objectionable to submit this question to any judge to determine Ihow long an offender shall be deprived of the right of suffrage in consequence f 0h violating this law. It seems to me itwould be a good deal better to permanently disfranise him, d: ave it to the pardoning power, or toine other poWer, to relieve him of that peoty. For 566 one, I think it improper to submit a question to any judge or any court to say whether a man shall be permanently disfranchised or not. It is a question which the judiciary ought not to determine. It is rather a political question, and ought not to be left to the discretion of any judge, who probably, if the elective system continues, will be a politician or political judge, and made by some political party. I shall, therefore, oppose the amendment. Mr.W. C. BROWN-I am not particular whether the penalty is left discretionary with the judge or not. If it would be more satisfactory to the gentleman [Mr. Pond] and the Convention, I would be willing to have a definite number of years of exclusion stated in the clause-say five years. Mr. McDONALD-I accept the amendment. The question was then put on the amendment of Mr. McDonald, as amended, and it was declared lost. Mr. AXTELL-I move that there be inserted in the eleventh line of this section, after the word "Lor" the word "any," and strike out the word " valuable " in the same line so that it shall read "any money or any other thing." I think the word "valuable" affords a loophole for every gentleman who may be a politician and learned in the law, to draw in any amount of corruption. Therefore, it should not be there.,The question was then put on the amendment of Mr. Axtell and it was declared lost. Mr. FERRY - I wish to inquire if it is in order to move a reconsideration of a vote that has been taken to-day. The PRESIDENT pro tem.- The Chair is of opinion that it is in order to move to reconsider, but the vote on the motion cannot be taken today if any one objects. Mr. FERRY- Then I move to reconsider the vote by which the words " idiots, lunatics and" were stricken out of section two. Mr. LANDON —I object. Mr. LAPHAM -I hope that unanimous consent will be given, so that we may take a vote upon that subject to-day. Mr. LANDON - I withdraw my objection. Mr. COCHRAN - I object. The PRESIDENT pro tern. - Objection being made, the motion to reconsider will lie over under the rule. Mr. VAN CAMPEN —I move to reconsider the vote taken yesterday, by which my motion to amend, by substituting two months for four months, was declared lost. The PRESIDENT pro tern.-The Chair will inform the gentleman from Cattaraugus [Mr. Van Campen] that the Convention has passed from the consideration of the first section and is now considering the second section; his motion cannot, therefore, be now entertained. When amendments generally are in order the Chair will recognize the gentleman in making the motion. Mr. LANDON -I move to strike out the word " others" in the tenth line and insert " another." The word others" leaves a loophole for corruption. The question was put on the amendmentof Mr Lano, and i was declared adopted. Mr. BICKFORD —I move to insert in the second line after the word "promise" the words "or expect or intend." It occurs to me that a person may expect or intend to contribute for such a purpose, if he has not expressly offered to do so. Without this amendment, I doubt whether the provision is going to be effectual. It seems to me that there are cases where a man may act as the agent of another and be understood to be his agent, and may say that such a man would be paid, in which case the principal would intend or expect to do what his agent had provided would be done in his behalf, and that too without his having expressly offered or promised to do so. A man may say A. B., a candidate, "will do what is right-he will give you five or ten dollars." This may have been done without any knowledge on the part of the principal, and yet he feels afterward in honor bound to do what his agent had promised, though he himself had made no promise. The PRESIDENTpro tem.- The Chair will insist that the gentleman from Jefferson [Mr. Bickford] must send up his amendment in writing. Mr. CtHESEBRO - I move to amend the substitute by adding at the end thereof the words "all challenges shall be determined upon the oath of the person challenged. " The question was then put on the amendment of Mr. Chesebro, and it was declared adopted. Mr. RUMSEY-I offer the following amendment: add at the end of the proposition of Mr. Folger these words "the offense of bribery as used in this Constituton shall be deemed an infamous crime." The object of this amendment is simply to render a conviction of bribery a reason for not voting at any time thereafter, the same as if it had been a felony. Bribery is simply a misdemeanor, as I understand it, and the person guilty would not, therefore, be excluded under the other provision of the Constitution. But if we give this definition to bribery it would exclude him for all time or until pardoned by the Governor. The question was put on the amendment of Mr. Rumsey, and it was declared lost. Mr. FULLER-I move a reconsideration of the vote by which the amendment offered by the gentleman from Ontario [Mr. Chesebro] was adopted, that all challenges shall be determined upon the oath of the person challenged, and I ask that the motion lie on the table. Mr. HARRIS-I move to strike out in the forepart of the amendment of the gentleman from Ontario [Mr. Folger], after the words "all persons," the words "who have been or may be," simply for the purpose of improving the construction of it, so that it will read " all persons convicted of bribery." Mr. POND —Do I understand this portion to mean that persons who have been convicted now cannot be excluded? Mr. HARRIS-A person who stands convicted of bribery. Mr. POND - If that language is used, will it not be prospective merely? Had it not better say distinctly, "have been or may be?" The question was put on the amendment of Mr. Harris, and it was declared carried. Mr. BICKFORD - I have reduced my amendment to writing. Amend section two by taking in after the word "promise," where it occurs the second time in line two, the words " or expect or intend." Mr. VERPLANCOK-I hope the amendment will not prevail. I suppose that when a person intends to commit an offense, and he concludes not to do it, it is not proper to charge him with doing what he may have intended to do but does not do. The question was then put on the amendment of Mr. Bickford, and it was declared lost. Mr. SPENCER —I offer the following amendment: Strike out in the seventh and eighth lines the word " inspector " and insert " officers authorized for that purpose shall;" and strike out the word " inspectors " where it next occurs and insert " officers." The object of the amendment is to provide for the contingency of the Legislature in reforming the election laws, not adopting the words "inspectors of election" as the persons to receive the vote. It may be competent for them to designate the supervisors, and the purpose of my amendment is to leave it general. Mr. TAPPEN - I think the object of the gentleman [Mr. Spencer], could be accomplished by inserting after the word "inspector," the words "or officer authorized for that purpose." Mr. SPENCER-I accept the amendment. The question was then put upon the amendment of Mr. Spencer, and it was declared carried. Mr. AXTELL - I move a reconsideration of the vote by which the amendment offered by me disfranchising deserters and certain other persons was declared lost, and I ask that the motion lie upon the table. Mr. CONGER —I offer the following amendment to take the place of the first part, of the first sentence, so that it will read as follows: strike out all down to and including the word " contribute," and insert in lieu thereof "no person who shall receive, pay or contribute, or shall agree, or offer directly or indirectly so to receive, pay or contribute, as aforesaid." The object of this amendmentis by the terms "agree, or offer directly or indirectly," to apply as well to one who pays as to the one who receives, and is to get rid of the distinction which I alluded to yesterday, between the offering to pay and the expectation of receiving. I think that with fair consideration it will be found to cover all the ground, and get rid of what may be a nice distinction between the expectation of receiving and the offering to pay, for there must be under any circumstances an agreement or offer, either direct or indirect. The question was put on the amendment of Mr. Conger and it was declared lost. Mr. SEYMOUR —I would like to inquire whether the exception to this provision, to wit, that which referred to the expense of circulating papers and documents has been stricken out? The PRESIDENT pro temn.-The Chair will inform the gentleman that it does not now form a portion of the section. * Mr, SEYMOUR - I move then that it be inserted. I had supposed thatthis provision would remain in the section. My attention has just been called to the fact that it has been stricken out, all. though it was sustained in committee after full dis cussion. I will not take up the time of the Convention by any discussion of the merits of the subject because they must be understood; but I think it would be desirable that it should be retained in the section. It merely excepts from the provision the legitimate expenses incurred by the printing and circulating of documents during the canvass. Mr. GREELEY —The clause now moved by the gentleman [Mr. Seymour], to be re-inserted, has become totally unnecessary by the adoption of the amendment of the gentleman from Ontario. Mr. SEYMOUR —If that is understood then the adoption of the provisionThe PRESIDENT pro tern. - Under the rule, the gentleman [Mr. Seymour], cannot again speak on the subject. Mr. SEYMOUR-All I desire to say is that I withdraw my amendment. Mr. COMSTOCK -I offer the following amendment by adding at the close of the section the following: "But no test oath founded on causes of exclusion from suffrage, other than those in this article mentioned, shall ever be prescribed." I had intended to offer this as an independent section of the article, but on the whole it seems to me that its proper place is at the close of the second section. I certainly entertain the opinion that without this amendment the Legislature never would have the power which the amendment is intended to prohibit forever. I think myself if the Legislature should undertake to disfranchise me on some ground of exclusion, from suffrage, |other than the grounds mentioned in this article, I might appeal for my protection to the bill of rights, and to the Constitution of the United States. Such is my own opinion. I know, however, that others may differ from me upon that proposition. I know that legislative bodies might differ from me in regard to it. Some Legislature, less intelligent possibly than this body, in some hour of partisan passion and excitement, might enact a disfranchising test oath founded upon disqualifications or causes of exclusion other than those which this Convention has deliberately adopted. But my intention is simply to make clear and to fix forever, what I believe to be the undoubted meaning of this Convention in establishing a law of suffrage, which enumerates the causes of exclusion from that right. We certainly intend that no other cause of disfranchisement shall ever exist, and I simply propose to make that clear forever. Mr. LAPHAM-Itrust this amendment wil not prevail. It is obvious enough that causes may hereafter exist which would require the imr position of an oath of that character in order to preserve the interests and rights of the people. It is well known to members of this Convention that an oath someyhat of the nature indicated by this amendment, was embodied in the organic act, by virtue of which the delegates to this Con vention were chosen, and the authority of the legislature to pass and prescribe that oath ha been denied by distinguished gentlemen of the State, and is now, I am informed, a question pending in the courts of the State. If this Convention should adopt a deliberate xpression ofthis character it might look like the trial of that ause 568 and the establishment of a precedent which would clause in the section, it just having been placed in have some influence in the trial of that issue. It the section by action of the Convention. is entirely unnecessary to incorporate in this sec- Mr. C C. DWIGHTT —A motion to reconsider tion of the Constitution any such provision as that has been made already, and it lies on the table. suggestedin this amendment. If the question should The PRESIDENTpro tern.-Upon either ground be discussed at all, I respectfully submit for the the motion of the gentleman is not now admissible. consideration of the Convention, it will arise under The question now is on the adoption of the second the sixth section, which is before us, and where section as amended. the form of the oath which is to be taken by the Mr. LOEW -I believe the first section was elector is prescribed, and for that reason it should not adopted as amended. not be appended as an amendment to this section. The PRESIDENT pro ter. - The Chair is inMr. COMSTOCK - That is the oath of office. formed by the Secretary that the gentleman's I call for the ayes and noes. statement is correct. The Chair will therefore A sufficient number seconding the call the ayes follow the course pursued by his predecessor. The and noes were ordered, and the Secretary corn- next question is upon the third section, which menced the call of the roll. will be read by the Secretary. Mr. CHURCH- Mr. President, I would like to Mr. VAN CAMPEN- I call up my motion to inquire -if I am in order — I think I rose before reconsider. the Clerk commenced the call. I wish to inquire The PRESIDENT pro tem.-The Chair is of the of the gentleman from Ontario [Mr. Lapham], opinion that the Convention must go through with whether he holds that it is competent for the all the sections, and then the motion to reconsider Legislature - can be taken up, and not till then. The PRESIDENT pro ten. -In the opinion of The SECRETARY proceeded to read the third the Chair the gentleman from Orleans [Mr. section, as follows: Church] is out of order, as the Clerk had corn- SE. 3. For the purpose of voting, no person menced the call of the roll before the gentleman shall be deemed to have gained or lost a resiarose. dence by reason of his presence or absence while Mr. CHURCH —I think I addressed the Chair employed in the service of the United States, nor first. while engaged in the navigation of the waters of The PRESIDENT pro tem. —The Chair dis- this State, of the United States, or of the high tinctly heard the call of the Clerk before it recog- seas, nor while kept in any almshouse or other nized the gentleman. asylum, at the public expense, nor while confined Mr. VAN COTT —I hope the gentleman from in any public prison. And the Legislature shall Orleans [Mr. Church] will have unanimous con- prescribe the manner in which electors absent sent- from their homes in time of war, in the actual A DELEGATE —I object. Let us have a military or naval service of this State, or of the vote. United States, may vote, and shall provide for the The call of the roll was proceeded with on the canvass and return of their votes. amendment of Mr. Comstock, and it was declared Mr. CHESEBRO — I desire to offer an amendlost by the following vote: ment, which I find is left out of this section, Ayes —Messrs. Barnard, Barto, E. Brooks, Cassi- which, being contained in the Constitution of dy, Champlain, Chesebro, Church, Clinton, Coch- 1846, I presume was left out through inadvertence ran, Comstock, Conger, Corning, Daly, Gross, by the committee. Hatch, Jarvis, Kernan,, A. R. Lawrence, Liv- The SECRETARY read the amendment, as ingston, Loew, Lowrey, Magee, Masten, Paige, follows: A. J. Parker, Potter, Robertson, Rogers, Rolfe "Insert after the word "seas " in line five, seeRoy, Seymour, Tappen, S. Townsend, Tucker, tion three, the words, "nor while a student of eeder, Verplanck, Weed, Wickham-38. any seminary of learning." Noes- Messrs. A. F. Allen, C. L. Allen, Alvord, Mr. T. W. DWIGHT-I hope that clause will Andrew, Axtell, Baker, Ballard, Barker, Beadle, not be inserted. A similar provision came up beBeckith, Bickford, Bowen, E. A. Brown, W. C. fore the Supreme Court of California, which State rown, Case, Clark, Corbett, C. C. Dwight, T. W. had clauses of this kind in its Constitution, as we Dwight, Ely,, Endress, Farnum, Ferry, Field, have in ours, and it was decided it had no effect Flagler, Fowler, Francis, Fuller, Goodrich, Gould, whatever, that the question of residence was to Grant, Graves, Greeley, Hammond, Houston, Hun- be determined on other grounds than whether a tington, Kinney, Krum, Landon, Lapham, A. Law- person was in college or not. Residence depends rence, M. H. Lawrence, Lee, Ludington, McDon- on the fact and the intention, and should be dealid Merrill, Merritt, Miller, Opdyke, Prindle, cided on general principles. Such a clause only Prosser, Reynolds, Root, Rumsey, Schoonmaker, tends to complicate the decision of questions herman, Smith, Spencer, Stratton, M. I. Towns- arising before inspectors, and at the same time it end, aa Cmpeen, Cott, Wakeman, Wales, is inoperative, as the Supreme Court of California Williams -65. decided. Mr. A. BAROWN-I move to amend by Mr. HARRIS-I hope this clause will be restriking out the clause which provides that all stored. It has been in the Constitution since 1846, hallenges shall be determined upon the oath of and has received a practical construction. If it is the chlenger. left out now, it may be misconceived. I have a, The PRESIDENT pro temr.-The Chair is of little feeling about it. My first vote, after returntie pno that that can oy be reached by a ing home, after being two years absent in college, Qta to reconaider the vote which placed the was challenged on the ground that I had lost my 5I9 residence. I felt reluctant to swear my vote in because I had not been at home, but I did so. I know now-that I did right. To leave out this clause might create some embarrassment, and certainly it can do no harm to leave it in. Mr. GREELEY -The committee very carefully considered this matter, and decided that a man's residence was what we could not here determine. Here is a young man who goes to school, perhaps, his home is where he has lived all his lifetime, and his residence is there. He has a right to go home and vote. Here is another young man who is sent to college, who has no other home than where he is living as a student; he makes that place his home. He may be there four years, having no other home than that; and, if you restore this article, he cannot vote at all. I hope no such proscription ever will be permitted, of those who are trying to get an education. We have decided that ignorance shall not disqualify a man from voting, and I trust we shall not enact a provision which shall disqualify a person because he is seeking an education. I hope this clause therefore, will be allowed to stand. Mr. ANDREWS-I am in favor of the restoration of this clause, and I do not think the suggestion of the gentleman from Westchester [Mr. Greeley] is well founded, because, in the case which he last supposes, if a student had no other residence than where he is attending college, and if the intention was with him to remain in that place although he might be a student, there, he would have a right notwithstanding the insertion of this clause to vote there. Mr. MERRILL - Does the gentleman understand that by the provision of the present Constitution a man may gain a residence by being a student in college? Mr. ANDREWS-Oh, unquestionably. It simply determines that, while a young man is at school, the fact of his being at school shall not affect the question of his residence. That, as I understand it, is the entire scope of the section. Now, striking out this section is not objectionable on the ground taken as I understand it, in the minority report, because if struck out then it would not allow students temporarily away from home at school to vote in the place where they might happen to be; but I agree with the gentleman from Albany [Mr. Harris], that this has furnished heretofore the rule in such cases, and it had better not be abandoned, although I do not suppose it protects any substantial right, whether it is in or out. The question was then put on the amendment of Mr. Chesebro, and it was declared adopted. Mr. RUMSEY-I desire to call the attention of the Convention to the last clause of the section. It provides that the Legislature shall prescribe the manner in which the electors engaged in the military and naval service of the United States shall vote. The first section prescribes that all electors shall vote in the town where they reside at the time of the election, and not elsewhere. We have made a mistake in striking out the proviso that was in that first section, and I propose to remedy that by inserting these words: Add after the word "elsewhere" line 6, section 1, "except as hereinafter provided" and that will give t eet, 72 The PRESIDENT pro' ten. - The Chair il inform the gentleman [Mr, Rumsey] that his amendment will be in order when amendments generally are announced. Mr. VAN CAMPEN -Before we proceed to the next section I want now to move a reconsideration of the vote just taken, by which the language was inserted in reference to students attending the seminaries of learning. Mr. C. C. ALLEN —I hope the gentleman will withdraw his motion, and I move that for the present it lie on the table. The PRESIDENT pro tern.- Objection being made, it must lie on the table under the rule. Mr. McDONALD -In line three 1 ask if the words " or of this State" are not omitted before the words "the United States." In line nine it is provided that "the Legislature shall prescribe the manner in which electors, absent from their homes in time of war in the actual military or naval service of this State or of the United States, may vote," while in the upper clause they only provide for those in the service of the United States. I, therefore, for the purpose of testing that, propose to amend by inserting in line three, before the words "United States," "or of this State," so that it will read as follows, "for the purpose of voting no person shall be deemed to have gained or lost a residence by reason of his presence or absence while employed in the military service of this State or of the United States." The PRESIDENT - The Chair would ask the gentleman whether he has reference to the first section? Mr, McDONALD -This' has reference to the third section, now under consideration. Mr. CHESEBRO —I would like to ask the gentleman where the troops would be in the service of the State of New York outside of the State? Mr. McDONALD -I do not know that they would be outside of the State, but they could vote where they were instead of being compelled to come home to vote. One thing or the other is certain, either those words ought to be inserted in the first clause, or the latter clause ought to be corrected, for that provides for absence from their homes in the actual military or naval service of this State, or of the United States. One or the other ought to be corrected, and I see no reason why a person who is engaged in the military service of this State, when he is in a different part of the State, should not be allowed to vote. Mr. AXTELL - The gentleman evidently misapprehends the meaning. This line does not refer to the military service. It refers to the fact that a man may be absent from the State in the service of the United States other than the military service. The question was then put on the amendment of Mr. McDonald, and, on a division, it was declared carried, by a vote of 45 to 31. Mr. LANDON —I offer the following amendmernt: "Insert in line ten after the words 'LJnit States,' the words, 'or in a seminary of out of the State.'" As students while attending a seminar of learning do not lose their residence, I do not 570 See why they are not entitled to be placed in The SECRETARY proceeded to read the the same position that soldiers and sailors are, amendment as follows: so that they may vote at home in the same manner Strike out section four and insert the following: as the soldiers and sailors do, who are out of the " SEc. 4. Laws shall be made for ascertaining State, I would say that there are a large number when the citizen offers his vote at the election, by of students who graduate at our colleges within proper proof, whether he is entitled to the right the State, and have residences in the State, who of suffrage hereby established." go into other States, into theological or law schools, Mr. CHAMPLAIN — On a previous occasion I or medical schools, and who desire to vote, but are submitted some general remarks to the Convention perhaps toopoor to come home to vote. This will in favor of this amendment. I will detain the accommodate that class of citizens. Convention a few minutes now with some facts in Mr. HARDENBURGH-I take it, Mr. Presi- detail. It is estimated that we have about a dent, that the adoption of this amendment, or a million of voters in this State. We have polled discussion on it, is somewhat of a reflection upon the seven hundred and fifty thousand, and it is calcuseminaries of learning in our own State, and for lated that only seventy per cent of the actual vote that reason I object to it. We have got some very is cast. Now, sir, there are provisions of law by good law schools in Albany and elsewhere in this which election districts are established to contain, State. not to exceed, five hundred voters. A simple cal. Mr. TAPPEN - I will briefly state to the culation will show that if that law is carried out, Convention the reason why I consider the proposi- and this State was divided into election dis. tion unnecessary. A person in the service of the tricts under it, there would be two thousand government is involuntarily absent in that service,of these boards of officers, and if that was while a person in a seminary of learning outside multiplied again there would be four thousand of the State, volunteers that absence, and is not of these boards of officers. Probably, sir, it detained from returning to the State, as is a person would be approximating to the truth to say in the service of the government. three thousand districts which would give about Mr. FULLER -There is another reason why four hundred voters to each election district. this amendment should not pass- There are five of these officers, three inspectors The PRESIDENT pro tem. -Does the Chair and two clerks, in the rural districts, and I do not understand the gentleman from Monroe [Mr. Ful- know how many in the larger towns. At three ler], as speaking against the proposition? dollars a day that is an expense of fifteen thouMr. FULLER- Yes, sir. sand dollars for every day they sit. I am told The PRESIDENT pro tern. - The Chair will that in the larger cities they charge for seventeen inform the gentleman that under the rule he is or eighteen days, but a simple calculation, allow. out of order; two members having already spoken ing that they sit five days, gives forty-five or against it. fifty thousand dollars for each day they act. The question was then put on the amendment Mr. CONGER - Seventy-five thousand dollars. of Mr. Landon, and was declared lost. Mr. CHAMPLAIN - Seventy-five thousand Mr. BARTO -I move to strike out in the dollars I Gentlemen will make these calculations seventh line from and including the word " and" themselves. I am only giving a general view to the close of the section. upon the figures. Now, here is an aggregate of Mr. C. C. DWIGHT- On that I call the ayes two, three or four hundred thousand dollars imand noes. posed on the tax payers of this State for the A sufficient number seconding the call, the expense of these boards of officers. How is it, ayes and noes were ordered. sir, with the voters? The gentleman from Mr. VEEDER - I cannot see the con- Westchester [Mr. Greeley] who made this report sistency of striking out this provision. If says that the inspectors will put the voters upon we are going to allow the provision to these rolls. If gentlemen will turn to his remain in the Constitution that a party report, they will find that he has denied to absent in the United States service, shall neither these inspectors any power over the right to gain or lose a residence, I do not see the con- withhold or pass on a voter, where other reforms gistency of striking out the provision which pro- are proposed, and I refer particularly to theistandvides for taking the vote. ard of intelligence as the test of voting. He says Mr. BARTO- I withdraw my amendment. they are subject to the frailties of other men, and The SECRETARY proceeded to read the fourth will judge of this matter in a partisan character. section as follows: a Is the idea to be tolerated for a moment that a "Laws shall be made for ascertaining by proper board of officers subject to such frailties, are to proofs the citizens who shall be entitled toethe be invested with the entire trust of putting the right of suffrage hereby established. And the electors of this State on the roll in secret? Does Legislature shall provide that a register of all citi- it not necessitate the personal attendance of the zens entitled to the right of suffrage in each elec- voter to see whether he is one or not? When tion district, shall be made and completed at least you take into consideration what the gentleman six days before any election; and no person concedes, that these laws will only apply to shall vote at such election who shall not have transient voters, who are mostly laboring men, been registered according to law; but such laws and mechanics who change their residence fre. shall be uniform in their requirements throughout quently, persons navigating your inland lakes, the State." your canals-a thousand miles of canals-and Mr. CHAMPLAIN - I move the following those he, admits must appear personally. I1supamenament. pose it is one-tenth of the voting population of 571 the State, which would be about one hundred entirely misunderstood what was said by7 the thousand, and if it is one-fifth, you have two hun- member now occupying the chair when on the dred thousand. If they lose two days in attend- floor? le used no such language. ance, at two dollars a day, there would be four hun- Mr. E. BROOKS-I know I understood the dred thousand dollars wrung from the industrial present occupant of the chair [Mr. Alvord] to say interests of the State, and for what? Because, this morning that a registry might be convenient perhaps, some vagabond is enabled in the city of to villages and cities, but that it was not proper New York to run the outposts of the commis- for the rural districts. sioned police, the loyal leagues, the clubs and The PRESIDENT pro tern.-The Chair wishes the vigilance committees, and put in a vote, this to inform the gentleman that he is mistaken, as no visitation is put upon the tax payers and upon such language was used.' the innocent citizens. I warn gentlemen if such Mr. E. BROOKS —Then I am glad I did not a provision as this is incorporated into the or- rightly understand the remarks of the President, ganic law, it will raise a storm of indignation for they grated rather harshly on my ears. But throughout the State and country and the rural it is not the first time that discriminations of this districts where the people are honorable and are kind between the city and country have been atguilty of no crime, that will sweep this Constitu- tempted, and these propositions remind me of tion out of existence. Increase the penalty for that old remark of'the poet who said, " God made the crim6; throw other safeguards around the the country and man made the town." Now, sir, proof that shall be offered on election day, but as between the town and the country, whatever do not visit nor let the indiscriminate hand of may be the opinion of gentlemen from the counvengeance lump together the innocent and the try, taking the population at large, I think there guilty in this enormous infliction. is about as much virtue in the city as in the Mr. ANDREWS -I trust this Convention is country. I remember a resolution like this, said not to be frightened from its propriety by the to have been adopted some years ago, by that threats which have been heard from the gentle- class of jurists which prevailed very extensively manfrom Allegany [Mr. Champlain], because if the in this country, and it read something like this: only storm which the work of this Convention has "Resolved, first, That the earth, and the fullness to withstand, is a storm to be raised by a provision thereof, belongs to the saints. for a fair registration of the voters of this State, then "Resolved, secondly, That we are the saints." I think the work of this Convention can pass that The same discrimination seems to be very often ordeal. And, sir, while I am in favor of all made between gentlemen residing in the city and proper and legitimate economy in carrying on those residing in the country, and I protest against the operations of this State, that economy is most it, and insist that if you are to have registry laws, if expensive which shall refuse to provide the means you are to embarrass the people of the city by these necessary to the ascertainment of the persons who discriminations, they ought to apply just as much are entitled to exercise the elective franchise, the to the rural districts as they do to the citizens of dearest right possessed by citizens of this State, the city. The registry law is a subject of great and at the same time one which should be most inconvenience and great expense; it imposes vigilantly and sacredly guarded. I do not under- heavy burdens upon the tax payers, and heavier stand that the estimates of the gentleman of the burdens upon the laboring classes of people, who expense of these proceedings are at all in accord- have not so much leasure as gentlemen have who ance with the fact. But whether so or not, I reside in the country. There are many more opsubmit that under color of regard for the laboring portunities for gentlemen residing in the rural dispeople of this State, we are not to allow the system tricts to avail themselves of the opportunities of of franchise to be invaded by the frauds of persons registry, than there are in the city, for the reasons who might desire that it should be exercised by I have named. I hope the original provision in those who are destitute of the proper qualifica- the clause reported by the Committee on Suffrage tions I trust, sir, that this present provision will will be insisted upon, and that the law will be be retained. uniform throughout the State. Mr. MERRILL-I submit the following amend- Mr. BALLARD- I understood the President ment to the amendment. pro tern. [Mr. Alvord] in the remarks he made, to The SECRETARY proceeded to read the amend- have reference to the registry laws as they now ment, as follows: exist, in which the personal attendance of electors Substitute for the last clause of section four, in is required in the city and incorporaied villages, hnes seven and eight, the following: "But such in order to get their names upon the registry, laws shall be uniform in their application to all the while in rural districts, inspectors of elections are cities in the State." required to register the names of the voters as Mr. E. BROOKS-I hope, sir, there is to be they find them on the poll lists of the preceding year. none of this discrimination as between city and I understood the gentleman [Mr. Alvord] in his recountry. I heard with a good deal of regret this marks to insist that the lawshould beadaptedto the morning, from the gentleman now occupying the cities and the rural districts as they now are. In chair [Mr. Alvord]-the acting President of this one case, a personal attendance is required to see body-remarks like this: that a registry law was that their names are upon the registry. In the very well for villages and cities, but very improper country the inspectors use the poll lists of the last for the country districts. Sir, I do not know what year, and enter the names there, and where the ideas the gentleman has of the cities of this State. election district runs into an incorporated village, The PRESIDENTpro tem.-Will the gentleman there they must see to it that their names are on [Mr. E. Brooks] permit the Chair to state that he the list before election day, but in otherelection 6-7 districts they may be entered on the oath of the elector on election day. Mr. E. BROOKS -Why should you compel the personal attendance of an elector in the city to have himself placed on the registry, and not impose the same burden on the elector in the country? Mr. BALLARD-That has been very well answered by the gentleman from Westchester [Mr. Greeley], that in crowded cities there is a necessity for personal attendance, because of numbers and want of acquaintance among the persons living contiguous, in order to ascertain that they are legal voters in the district. In the country districts every man knows his neighbor, and so extensive is the acquaintance that the right of every person in a town to vote is known by those at the polls. Mr. TAPPEN - How is an elector in the rural districts to know that the inspectors have placed his name on the registry list without a personal inspection by himself? Mr. BALLARD - He may not know the fact unless he sees it; but an elector's name, if on the poll list, would not be left off by an inspector unless through inadvertency. It is well known that the country election districts sometimes embrace a territory of five or ten miles. They are of different dimensions; and to have a uniform law, requiring every man to go and see if his name is registered six days before election - in the country as well as in the city —would be a most embarrassing and oppressive enactment. In this city of Albany, and in New York and Brooklyn, men live within a stone's throw, or certainly within two or three minutes' walk of the polls of an election district, and they can go without difficulty and see that their names are registered. To require that in the country would involve perhaps a five miles' journey, involving much expense; which consideration has been alluded to by the gentlemen from Allegany [Mr. Champlain], and that journey would have to be repeated over hills and through valleys six days after the registry, on the day of election. I hope that the last line will be stricken out and amended in the manner proposed by the gentleman from Wyoming [Mr. Merrill]. Mr. BARB ARD-I hope that we shall not change the section as it was reported by the Committee on the Right of Suffrage. A fair registry law no one can object to, because it enables the inspectors, before the day of election, to ascertain who are the voters on the day of election, and prevent those delays which otherwise would occur when the votes were being taken. But a registry law should be uniform throughout the State, and ought not require the personal attendace of the voter in the cities any more than in the country. The cities of New York and Brooklyn, you will bear in mind, are commercial cities, and they have in them a great many voters-seafaring men-who are nearly all the time at sea, and if when the registers sit six days before the election these men happen to be at sea, they cannot be ritered to vote because they cannot attend pesoly, a thereby their vots are lost; and the igt of sufrage is denied to them. I hope that we l have uniform law, and have it as it eisted in this State bXire year 1866. Mr. MERRLL -The object of a registry law, as I understand it, is to prevent frauds in the elections, by enabling citizens to ascertain, in the only possible way in an entirely proper manner, who are entitled to vote. The object of my amendment is to require a uniformity throughout the cities of the State, so as to prevent any unjust discrimination against citizens similarly situated, and leave the Legislature to make such laws as it shall deem wise. If it is not manifest to gentlemen on this floor that the same class of requirements are not applicable to the population of the cities which would properly apply to citizens in the rural districts, then nothing I can say, or that anybody else could say, would bring them to that point of view. Laws are uniform when they apply to populations situated in like manner. Mr. E. BROOKS —Under the existing prac. tice, a man who resides in the rural district - The PRESIDENT pro tem. - The Chair is of the opinion that the gentleman is out of order, he having already spoken on the amendment. Mr. E. BROOKS- I wish to ask the gentleman whether there is not this discrimination between voters of the country and the city, that a man residing in the country is permitted to vote on the day of election, while in the city he must be registered before he can vote? Mr. MERRILL - In reply to that I would say that I fail to discover anything in this article, as it would be amended by the proposition I have submitted, which will make any unjust distinctions between the population of cities and country districts. It is entirely a matter of legislation. The Legislature, as I understand, can now make laws which shall be uniform, if that is deemed to be the best manner to secure the object of registration. It would likewise be within the limits of legislation, under this section, to do away with the requirements of personal attendance in cities, or to impose such a requirement upon the country, as the Legislature should deem best to secure the ends of the law. Mr. VAN CAMPEN - Mr. PresidentThe PRESIDENTpro ten. - The Chair would inform the gentleman that two gentlemen on each side have already spoken on the amendment. Mr. VAN CAMPEN- I understood that the rule only applied to the consideration of the first section. The PRESIDENT pro tem. -It applies to the report of the Committee on the Right of Suffrage. Mr. TAPPEN - Does the Chair mean to state that four gentlemen have spoken on the amendment of the gentleman from Wyoming [Mr. Merrill]? The PRESIDENT pro tem-Two have spoken on each side of the amendment. The question was then announced on the amendment of Mr. Merrill. Mr. CHESEBRO-On that I ask the ayes and noes. A sufficient number seconding the call, the ayes and noes were ordered. Mr. KINNSY-I understood the amendment of the gentleman from Allegany [Mr. Champlain] was a lsbstitute for the first proposition of this secdioi, while tIt amendment offered by the gen 573 tleman from Wyoming [Mr. Merrill] is to insert requirements throughout the State. I have a something between the seventh and eighth lines very great objection to making any change in this of the printed amendment reported by the Cor- clause whatever, and under the circumstances I mittee of the Whole. cannot well vote for the change proposed, as it The PRESIDENT pro tem.-The Chair so un- would make the clause unintelligible. I think it derstands it. is a very grave mistake to make any change at al. Mr. KINNEY-It is not an amendment to the Mr. MERRILL - I call the gentleman to order. amendment. He is arguing the question instead of giving the The PRESIDENT pro ter. -The Chair under- reasons 'for being excused from voting. stands that there are two amendments to the The PRESIDENT pro tern. - The Chair is of same section, and as two amendments are pend- the opinion the point of order is well taken. ing they will not admit of a proposition for any Mr. VAN CAMPEN- Then I vote "no." further amendment? Mr. B]ICKFORD -I wish to change my vote, The SECRETARY proceeded with the call of the and vote no. roll. The PRESIDENT pro tem. —The Chair will The name of Mr. Bickford was called, state that under a misapprehension, it permitted Mr. BICKFORD - I ask to be excused from the gentleman from Cayuga [Mr. C. C. Dwight] voting on the ground that my attention has been to be recorded in the negative. The Chair is diverted from the question. informed that the rule which has obtained hereThe question was put on granting the request tofore in this body is that persons can only be of Mr. Bickford to be excused from voting, and it excused from voting by the consent of the Conwas declared lost. vention; and, therefore, it feels it its duty to put Mr. BICKFORD - Then I vote "aye." the question of excusing the gentleman from Mr. C. C. DWIGHT- I ask to be excused from Cayuga [Mr. C. C. Dwight] from voting, to the voting on the pending amendment, and if permit- vote of the Convention. ted will briefly state my reasons for making the Mr. C. C. DWIGHT-I withdrew my request request. I am opposed, sir, to enacting any to be excused. registry law in the Constitution of this State. The PRESIDENT pro tern. -The Chair is The first clause of this article, as reported, is aware of that, but in its opinion under the former precisely the same in this respect as the provis- ruling, the gentleman could not be excused from ion of the present Constitution, which on the sub- voting without the consent of the Convention. ject of registry has worked well. I propose, There being no objection, the question was put when it shall be in order, to move to strike out on excusing Mr. C. C. Dwight from voting, and it all after the first clause of section 4. If I am not was declared lost. excused from voting I shall vote "no" upon the Mr. C. C. DWIGHT- I vote in the negative. proposition. The call of the roll was proceeded with, and The name of Mr. Kinney was called. the amendment of Mr. Merrill was declared lost Mr. KINNEY- I beg leave to be excused from by the following vote: voting. The amendment offered by the gentleman Ayes-Messrs. A. F. Allen, C. L. Allen, Alvord, from Allegany [Mr. Champlain] is a substitute for Andrews, Ballard, Barker, Beadle, Beckwith, the fourth section, while the amendment offered Bowen, E. P. Brooks, W. C. Brown, Case, T. W. by the gentleman from Wyoming [Mr. Merrill] pro- Dwight, Ely, Endress, Farnum, Flagler, Fowler, vides for the insertion of certain words in the seventh Frank, Fuller, Goodrich, Gould, Grant, Hammond, and eighth lines of the section, reported by the Hand, Houston, Krum, Lapham, A. Lawrence, M. Committee of the Whole. I cannot vote intelli- H. Lawrence, Lee, Ludington, McDonald, Merrrill, gently upon the question pending, because if the Merritt, Miller, Prindle, Prosser, Root, Rumsey, amendments were carried the whole matter would Sherman, Spencer, Stratton, Van Cott, Wakebe unintelligible to this Convention. man -45. The question was then put on excusing Mr. Noes-Messrs. Axtell, Barnard, Barto, Bickford, Kinney, and it was declared lost. E. Brooks, Cassidy, Champlain, Chesebro, Clinton, Mr. KINNEY -Then I vote "no." That is Cochran, Comstock, Conger, Corning, Daly, C. C. the safest way I know of. Dwight, Field, Francis, Greeley, Gross, HardenThe name of Mr. M. L Townsend was called. burgh, Harris, Jarvis, Kernan, Kinney, Landon, Mr. M. I. TOWNSEND-I ask to be excused A. R. Lawrence, Loew, Lowrey, Magee, Masten, from voting for this reason. My conviction would Morris, Paige, A. J. Parker, Reynolds, Robertson, lead me to vote "no " upon this subject, but my Rogers, Rolfe, Roy, Schoonmaker, Seymour, Tap. colleague Mr. Armstrong, would be of a different pen, S. Townsend, Van Campen, Veeder, Veropinion, and we agreed that we would pair on this planck, Wales, Weed, Wickham-60. question, and with the consent of the Convention Mr. CORBETT — I move to strike out from line I wish to be excused from voting. seven, commencing at the word " but" to and inThere being no objection Mr. M. I. Townsend eluding the word "State" on the eighth line. was excused. Mr. KINNEY -I would ask the reading of The name of Mr. Van Campen was called. the amendment of the gentlemen from Allegany Mr. VAN CAMPEN-I beg to be excused from [Mr. Champlain], as amended on the motion of voting on this question for the reason, that the the gentleman from Wyoming [Mr. Merrill]. insertion of the clause here would seem to destroy The PRESIDENT pro tern. - The Chair would its force. It provides that the laws shall be uni- inform the gentleman [Mr. Kinney], that the form in respect to cities, and then again it says amendment of the gentleman from Wyoming Mir. wch., registry laws shall be uniform in their Merrill], was lost. 574 Mr. WEED — This question will of necessity Mr. BURRILL - I rise to a question of privibe taken up and reconsidered when the Conven- lege. On Thursday last, in the afternoon, an tion is full. I move, therefore that the Convention amendment was offered by Mr. Gross of New do now adjourn. York, giving the right to vote to persons who The question was then put on the motion of should have declared their intention to become citMr. Weed, and it was declared carried, on a divi- izens prior to the adoption of the proposed Consion, by a vote of 75 to 37. stitution. I had received a telegram calling me to So the Convention stood adjourned, the city, and was not in my seat at the moment the amendment was offered; on my return to the chamber, for the purpose of making some further MONDAY, July 29, 1867. preparations for my departure, the roll was being The Convention met pursuant to adjournment called, and shortly after I entered, my name was at half-past seven o'clock. called as among the absentees, and I inquired of a The President pro tern. [Mr. FOLGER] in the gentleman near me as to the effect of the amendchair. ment, and I voted according to the construction Prayer was offered by the Rev. EDWARD which I received from him. Subsequently, on BAYARD. reading the amendment, I found that I had misThe Journal of Friday was read by the SEC- apprehended its meaning. The amendment was RETRY. lost, and my vote stands recorded in the negative Mr. GREELEY- I understand that the amend- and among the majority. Had I properly comprement moved by my colleague from Westchester hended the amendment I should have voted in [Mr. Tappen] striking out the words " right of favor of it, and should have been recorded among suffrage " wherever it occurs, and inserting in lieu the minority, and I now desire to be so recorded. thereof, "elective franchise," to have been nega- I wish to make this explanation in order that my tived. The Clerk read that it was adopted by the views on this question may be rightly understood, Convention. I only call attention to that fact. It and that I may stand correct upon the record. is not according to my understanding. I may be No objection being made, the Journal was order. mistaken. ed to be corrected in that respect. The PRESIDENT pro tem.-The recollection of Mr. MERRILL -If in order, I wish to ask for the Chair, sitting in another place, is that it was leave of absence for three days for Mr. Field, of negatived. Oleans. There being no objectio objection the Jornal was N objection being made, leave was granted. corrected in that respect. The PRESIDENT pro ten. announced the speThere being no further objections thereto the cial order to be the report of the Committee on Journal as corrected was declared approved, the Right of Suffrage as amended, and the pendMr. GREELEY - I move that the roll of the ing question, the motion of Mr. Champlain to strike Convention be now called. ou section fo Mr. ARCHER I move that the Conention do Mr. KINNEY -I offer the following amendnow adjourn. ment to the section by striking out, after the The question was put on the motion of Mr. word "law" in the seventh line of said section, Archer, and it was declared lost. the words "but such laws shall be uniform in Mr. GREELEY-I now move that the roll of their requirements throughout the State." the Convention be called. Mr. VEEDER -I rise, sir, for the purpose of The SECRETARY proceeded with the call of inquiring whether the amendment of the gentlethe roll, and the following members were found to man from Allegany [Mr. Champlain] will strike be present: out this section and substitute another provision. Messrs. A. F. Allen, C. L. Allen, Alvord, I understand the amendment of the gentleman Archer, Axtell, Baker, Barker, Barto, Beadle, from Tioga [Mr. Kinney] to be to the section as it Beals, Beckwith, Bickford, Carpenter, Cassidy, stands printed, and I desire to inquire whether Champlain, Chesebro, Church, Clark, Clinton, an amendment of that kind is in order, and Cochran, Conger, Cooke, Corning, Daly, Develin, whether the amendment should not properly be Eddy, Endress, Ferry, Flagler, Folger, Fowler, to the substitute as offered by the gentleman from Fuller, Goodrich, Gould, Grant, Graves, Greeley, Allegany [Mr. Champlain]. Hammond. Harris, Houston, Kinney, Krum, Lan- The PRESIDENT pro tem. - The Chair underdon, A. Lawrence, M. H. Lawrence, Lee, Luding- stands that the amendment of the gentleman ton, Mattice, Merritt, Miller, More, Morris, A. J. from Tioga [Mr. Kinney] if adopted would take Parker, C. E. Parker, Prindle, Prosser, Reynolds, the place of the amendment of the gentleman Root, Rumsey, Schoonmaker, Smith, Spencer, from Allegany. S. Townsend, Van Campen, Van Cott, Wakeman, Mr. KINNEY-At our session on Friday, it Wales, Williams-67. was then decided, where a proposition was offered On motion of Mr. MORRIS the Convention ad- to strike out the entire section and to substitute journed. another in its place, it was in order to perfect the original proposition before the question of striking TUESDAY, July 30, 1867. out and inserting could be taken, and under that The Convention met at 11 o'clock A. M., Mr. ruling I offer this proposition, which is to perfect FOLGER, President pro ter. in the chair. the original section as printed. Prayer was offered by Rev. AMBROSE O'NEIL. Mr. LIVINGSTON-Mr. Chairman, I trust dir, The Journal of yesterday was read by the SEC- that this Convention will refuse to strike out that RETARY, and was approved, part of the section now under consideration, 575 which requires that the registry laws shall be equality, and what becomes of that equality if the uniform in their requirements throughout the Legislature is now authorized to enact laws inState. The justice and equity of this provision posing restrictions upon the right to vote of a are so apparent, that it seems to me strange that portion only of the inhabitants of this State, or it should encounter any opposition in a body com- making discriminations concerning the exercise posed of gentlemen who profess to have come of the elective franchise between the residents of together for the purpose of amending the the different parts of this State. In behalf of my fundamental law of the State, in order to secure constituents, therefore, I protest against giving to the people thereof a more perfect system of such power to the Legislature under any pretext government. It must be clear to every one that whatever. without such a provision in the Constitution as Mr. LAPHAM - I am in favor of the amendthe one now under discussion, the Legislature ment that the gentleman from Tioga [Mr. Kinwould have the power to virtually disfranchise the ney] proposed to the amendment offered by the residents of any particular portion of the State, by gentleman from Allegany [Mr. Champlain]. I annexing to their right to vote certain conditions regard the amendment striking out the last clause from which the rest of the people would be ex- of section three as reported by the committee as empt. The existing registry laws are proof of desirable, for the reason that that provision is what I assert. It may not be known to all the entirely unnecessary. The proposition of the members of this Convention that at the present gentleman from Allegany [Mr. Champlain] struck time the residents in the cities and incorporated me with surprise, for I have found that class of villages of this State are deprived of their gentlemen in this body who sympathized in senright to vote unless they shall have been regis- timent with him, extremely solicitous through tered a certain number of days before the elec- the whole of this debate, to incorporate into the tion, while no such restriction is placed upon the provisions of this article every form of expression inhabitants of the country. Again, in the cities which might in any manner describe the offense of New York and Brooklyn, no voter can be of infidelity on the part of the elector, and I took registered unless he appears in person before the courage in believing that gentlemen were earnest board of registers, on the days indicated by law. in their desire to purify the ballot-box, and prevent No matter what knowledge the registers may the possibility of corruption in our elections. I have as to a person's place of residence and right confess my surprise that,when we have now come to vote, no matter how conclusively the facts- en- down to the last and crowning act, which of all titling such person to vote may be proved, he others is best calculated, as experience has must appear before the board at the designated shown, to preserve the purity of the elective time and apply to have himself registered, and he franchise, the gentleman from Allegany promust renew the application every time he desires poses to strike it out altogether. I will not, from to vote; so that in those two cities every one this simple motion on his part, draw the inference who has been unavoidably prevented by sickness that the intelligent gentlemen of this Convention or otherwise from applying in person to have him- who have thus indicated their desire to prevent self registered must lose his vote, and such is not the possibility of corruption at the polls are insinthe case in any other part of the State. Can any cere,or have been insincere in those professions. I one pretend, then, that under existing laws the will wait until we take the vote on the proposiinhabitants of New York, Brooklyn and other tion of the gentleman from Allegany [Mr. Chaincities exercise the right of suffrage on equal plain], and let that determine whether they are terms with the people in the country? Certainly in earnest in having all the safeguards placed not. Since I have come here I have heard a upon the ballot-box which experience has proved great deal about the right of the black man to were so useful and efficacious in preserving the vote on the same terms as the white man, purity of elections. I trust that the amendand I supposed of course that no one would deny ment which has lastbeen offered will not prevail. that the white men of this State had the right for the reason that it is entirely useless as a to vote on equal terms With each other,. without provision in the Constitution, that whole matter reference to their residence; but I find that some being subject to regulation by legislative action. of those gentlemen who have been the most I hope the amendment proposed by the genearnest in their efforts to place the black man on tleman from Allegany [Mr. Champlain] will meet an equality with the white man in respect to suf- with such a response from this Convention as will frage, are now equally warm in advocating that show him, and show the people at large, that the a discrimination should be made on the same sub- desire to put provisions in the Constitution to preject between the white men of the State. I take vent corruption which has been so universally it for granted that a proposition to incorporate in manifested thus far, is a real and earnest desire the Constitution a provision imposing on the voters on the part of every member of this Convention. in cities qualifications different from those required Mr. KERNAN -I desire to say a word in opof voters in the country would meet with very lit- position to the amendment of the gentleman from tle favor in this Convention, and yet it is proposed Tioga [Mr. Kinney] to strike out the clause in this by some gentlemen to confer upon the Legislature section which provides that the registration shall the power to do indirectly what we would not be be uniform; and I will not assume, sir, as the willing to do directly. I beg the members of this gentleman from Ontario [Mr. Lapham] seems inConvention to be at least consistent on this sub- clined on all occasions to assume, that every man ject of suffrage. In a preceding section they have who may differ with me onthissubject is less honest just conferred the elective franchise on every or less desirous of having the purity of the ballot male citien to be exercised upon terms of perfect box preserved than myself, or those with whom I 576 may chance to act. I think.that kind of argument is uniform; and I hold that the honorable gentlehardly worthy of this body. It may do very well on man who brought in this report intended it so the hustings or in mere party discussions, if that be far, and no farther. There may be, of necessity, the taste of the speaker; but it is hardly an argu- circumstances in which the framework of any ment here to put everything on the ground that registry law must be uniform, but the details all who may differ from one party or the other, must be altered by surrounding circumstances. on a question of this kind, do it from dishonest It cannot be in any other way or direction when motives. Sir, I find this provision which it it is other than uniform, and for the purpose of is proposed to strike out reported by the respect- arriving at a correct conclusion in regard to the able committee that had this subject in charge. elimination of all that may be corrupting in its I find this provision that the law of registration influence upon the voting population of the State, shall be uniform in the State reported and it must of necessity be diverse according to the recommended by the distinguished chairman diverse circumstances surrounding it. Why, of this committee, who, I believe, has mani- sir, a registry law, as far as it is concerned, tested as much desire to have integrity in in order to be operative in the right direction, voting in this State as any one, who, I assume, must of necessity be different in the cities desires that we shall have an efficient regis- from what it is in the country. A registry tration law; and yet, sir, we find gentlemen here law which costs nothing to the voter in the anxious that there should be a discrimination in city, and which results in perfect purity, as far the law which it shall not be in the power of as it can through human means, will be onerous the Legislature even to remove; or that we and oppressive in the country. Our present leave it so that the Legislature may change registry law (and I speak here advisedly in regard the registration law as partisan feeling, or any to that matter) is a registry law which no man other motive may influence them. It is evi- should fear, and which no man should hesdent from what we have heard and seen in this itate ix standing by and supporting under State, that there is a feeling among a great mass all and every circumstance. It is only because of the people not of satisfaction with the registry of the fact (and we may as well speak out law, that there were unfair discriminations in that boldly), it is only because the great majority law. I believe, sir, that it is proper that we have of the voters on the side of the opposition are a registry law, and I am in favor of a fair, rea- congregated in cities, where corruption can be sonable registry law in this State, with a view to had with a great deal more facility and ease than preserve the purity of elections, but I am in favor it can be in the rural portioas of the country that of having it uniform, and I would not have they desire to put upon us the burden of a regislaws discriminating between one section and an- try law-which, while it purifies the cities, other. I trust, therefore, that in this respect the will add nothing to the purity of the country, Convention will adhere to the views of the com- but will stand halfway between the ballot-box and mittee, and retain this provision that requires the the homestead, and prevent the man in the counregistry laws to be uniform throughout the State, try from coming up and doing his duty as a freeman that we may have acquiescence in them, and and a voter. I hold it is a clog upon the vote of the leave no opportunity for an unfair discrimination rural districts, which the opposition do not hope between the voters of this State. or expect to retain in the future, as they have Mr. ALVORD-I did not understand my not had it in the past, and it is for that purpose, friend from Ontario [Mr. Lapham], as speaking in and for that purpose alone, that they ask us for any other direction in reference to the position what they term a uniform registry law. It is taken by what we term " the opposition" here, time for us to speak out openly and boldly in this except in reference to the amendment offered by Convention. These men who have pretended the gentleman from Allegany [Mr. Champlain], throughout the length and breadth of this diswhich did away with the idea of a registry law cussion to act in harmony with us, and to desire entirely, under any and all circumstances, if I un- to act in harmony with us, are putting forward derstand it; and, therefore, the remarks made by every one of their political schemes, for the purtthe gentleman from Oneida [Mr. Kernan], as ap- pose of breaking us down in the operation of plicable to the remarks made by the gentleman making this Constitution, and it is time for us to from Ontario [Mr. Lapham], are not entitled, it take this matter in our own hands, and to go for, seems to me, to the consideration and weight ward with it upon the principles which have ac with which he offered them. It seems, there- tuated us in the past, and leave these men to fore, as far as regards this matter of registration, their own bigotries, now and in the future. abstractly considered, both the gentleman from The question was then put upon the arnenice-.t Ontario [Mr. Lapham], and the gentleman from of Mr. Kinney, and it was declared carried by Oneida [Mr. Kernan], agree. What is this amend- the following vote: ment offered by the gentleman from Tioga [Mr. Ayes- Messrs. A. F. Allen, C. L. Allen, Alvord, Kinney]? It does not change this matter at all, Andrews, Archer, Armstrong, Axtell, Baker, except in this regard, that it strikes out, that Barker, Beadle, Beals, Beckwith, Bell, Bickford, which is surplusage. If the Legislature should Bowen, W. C. Brown, Carpenter, Case, Corbett, go to work and make up the framework of T. W. Dwight, Eddy, Ely, Endress, ]arnurn, any registry law, and they see fit to make Ferry, Flagler, Folger, Fowler, Fuller, IFllerton, it in any direction, or in accordance with Goodrich, Gould, Grant, Graves, Hale. Hammond, the striet term uniform throughout the State, Hand, Harris, Hitchcock, Houston, Hutchins, that is their business, and not ours. I hold a Ketcham, Kinney, Krum, Landon, Lapham, A. registry law should be, to a certain extent, Lawrence, M. H. Lawrenoe, Lee, McDonald, Mert 577 rill, Merritt, Miller, Opdyke, C. E. Parker, Pond, his name from the roll, if he sees fit; that requires Prindle, Rathbun, Reynolds, Root, Rumsey, L W. a second attendance, and a third attendance on Russell, Sherman, Smith, Spencer, Stratton, Van the day of election, if gentlemen do not choose Campen, Van Cott,Wakeman,Wales,Williams-71. to enact a provision here that the law shall be Noes-Messrs. Barnard,Barto, Bergen,E. Brooks, uniform. I submit it is a hardship as the present Burrill, Cassidy, Champlain, Chesebro, Clinton, law exists in the cities of New York and Cochran, Conger, Corning, Daly, Develin, Greeley, Brooklyn. Gross, Hatch, Hitchman, Kernan, Law, Livings- Mr. POND -I am opposed to this proposed ton, Loew, Lowrey, Mattice, Monell, More, Morris, amendment to this section. The result will be, Nelson, Paige, A. J. Parker, Potter, Robertson, sir, if it is adopted, to place it in the power of the Schell, Schoonmaker, Schumaker, Seymour, Tap- majority of the Legislature to sweep it out of pen, M. I. Townsend, S. Townsend, Tucker, existence as any gentleman may know from the Veeder, Weed, Wickham-43. interest exhibited here on this question. How Mr. BARKER-I move to amend the section long in case the political majority in the Legislaby striking out the word "any" at the end of line ture is changed would this wise and salutary profive, and inserting in lieu thereof the words vision be found upon our statute books? It would " every general." The object of introducing this be swept away in the twinkling of an eye, and amendment and changing the language is to have when swept away, I do not know when the politithe registry law apply to general elections and cal majority at present in the ascendency would not have it applicable to towns and municipal ever get posession again. The provision requirelections. I suppose that the design of the com- ing a registry is a salutary and necessary law mittee is to have it apply to general elections and -and in regard to the remarks that have been not to mere local elections. made in reference to having it uniform The question was then put on the amendment throughout the State, that it is a very specious of Mr. Barker, and it was declared carried. claim, and one of the gentlemen who have made Mr. VEEDER-I move to amend the section remarks on this subject puts it in this light, by striking out all after the word "established" that it makes a distinction between white in line three. It seems to be the sense of the voters, to wit, those who reside in cities and Convention that no uniform laws shall be estab- villages, and those who reside in other parts of lished, which I regret very much. I submit that the State. I would like to inquire of that it is entirely unnecessary that a provision of this gentleman if those citizens who reside in cities kind should be incorporated in the fundamental do not have different laws, resulting from the law of the State. Every gentleman who is at all very organization and municipal incorporations familiar with the registry law as it now exists is of cities, from those citizens who reside and live quite well aware of the fact that that registry in the country? Why, sir, the very constitution law establishes, as one of its provisions and of a municipal government makes a different law requirements, that electors shall be upon and a different form of government from that the register at least the Friday preceding the which citizens of the country live under, and is it Tuesday of election, which fixes the day, and to be said that all laws are to be made uniform if the Legislature, under the old provision of the throughout the State? If so let us abolish the Constitution, had the right and possessed the city of New York, and take it under the fostering power to fix a day when the registry shall close, care of the rural districts; that will make it a which they do and which has never been ques- little better, I apprehend, than what it now is. The tioned, I submit that it is entirely unnecessary to very fact of their being a municipal government, insert a proposition of this kind in the Constitu- the very fact that a city is very different from the tion. Again, sir, it provides that unless a party country, the very fact that man made the city is duly registered, and his name placed upon the and God made the country, makes it necessary for register, he shall not vote. That is the law of a different law in reference to elections and many to-day, as it applies to the cities of New York other things. You might as well say that there and Brooklyn. A provision of that kind cannot must be a police department in every town in the be incorporated in the law and in the Consti- country in order to make it equal and uniform tution as it now stands, and I submit it is throughout the State. I deny the whole thing. entirely unnecessary. In reply to some remarks The fact that in the city of New York and that have been made in regard to a desire other cities large numbers of people have connot to have uniform laws, I wish simply to gregated, makes it necessary that there shouldbe state that, in my judgement, a greater hardship different laws. In order to make it uniform, the prevails in the cities of New York and Brooklyn for law ought to go further and provide that there an elector than anywhere else in the State. To should not be more voters living in a certain given enable him to cast his vote, he is obliged under space in the city of New York than there are in the present law to lose three days before he can any remote town in the country. When that is accomplish that purpose; one day to attend per- done, and the inhabitants are as sparsely located sonally at the registry and see that his name is in the cities as in the country, then it will be time, upon the roll; so that although any of us may and time enough, to make laws applicable to have voted last fall in the cities of New York and elections alike in the cities and in the country. Brooklyn, before we can vote at the next election Mr. President, the effect of requiring aitizens in we must again attend personally and place our the country to be registered, six days for instance names upon the register. That is one day; then before election, will, in its operation, disfranchise the law empowers the registrar to examine the a large number who would have, in order to be roll, and in the absence of the elector to strike registered, to take a whole day. Now, in a 73 578 great many instances they will not do it, and the evil to be guarded against does not exist in that case. They are all known on election day; every inhabitant and citizen in the town are known in the rural district; they are not known in the city, and this difference in the law is created by that very fact. I am opposed, therefore, to striking it out, and I shall be in favor of another amendment to this section as it now stands in order to carry out the view, as I understand it, of the Convention, as they have indicated their views by striking out the last clause. Mr. A. J. PARKER-I would have been quite willing that this clause moved to be stricken out should have remained in if this Convention had not just now stricken out the following clause, which requires that the registry law should be uniform throughout the State. I regret exceedingly that the Convention has come to the conclusion to strike out that last clause which the Committee had reported. The gentleman from Onondaga [Mr. Alvord], in the remarks he made upon that subject, said that it appeared that the minority of this Convention were determined to get in every possible partisan advantage, and he thought it high time that the majority should mark out their own course, regardless of the minority. This I understand to be the substance of his remarks. I regret exceedingly that this declaration of war should be thus made by the distinguished gentleman from Onondaga [Mr. Alvord]. There is not the slightest foundation for the idea such as he has advanced upon that subject. Pray, what have the minority done that indicates a desire to gain any possible partisan advantage? We have sustained a clause reported by the Committee on the Right of Suffrage, a large majority of which (five to two, I am told), represent the political majority of the Convention, and because we do so we are denounced as attempting to gain a partisan advantage. Mr. SCHUMAKER- The committee were unanimous on that point. Mr. A. J. PARKER -I insist, therefore, that this attack is causeless, unfounded and does not belong to the distinguished position that that gentleman has occupied before the public and in this body. Mr. President, what could we in the minority gain by any attempt to secure a partisan advantage? We are utterly helpless, and the moment the tocsin is sounded we are voted down. We can do nothing, and the gentleman knows it perfectly well. We can gain no partisan advantage. We can seek to make no Constitution, or to place any clause in the Constitution which can give us a partisan advantage hereafter. A minority can never do it. But it is not so with the majority. They have the power, and he says they will exercise it. They can make a Constitution which they think will give them a partisan advantage, and he says they shall do so. Well, sir, we can resist, and that is all. We cannot resist successfully. We shall be overborne if tliis doctrine be carried out to the extent avowed here. Let it come, sir. We will do our duty, strugglingnot to make a partisan Constitution, but honestly, fairly and candidly, seek to make one that shall improve the fundamental law of the State. And if we are overborne, thank God there is a higher tribunal to which we can appeal for redress. Mr. RATHBUN —I hope that the members of the Convention will not take fire at what was said by my friend from Onondaga [Mr. Alvord]; no harm will come from it, I hope. I think there is no reason that any should. He was very earnest, and perhaps went a little further than would be wholly justifiable. My idea about it is, and I presume the gentleman from Albany [Mr. A. J. Parker], will agree with me, that it is the duty of all of us, no matter about party, to endeavor to make a Constitution that will be for the benefit of all, and equal for all. Now, this question presents itself, which has been discussed in regard to uniformity. Now, sir, so far as uniformity is concerned, I agree with the gentleman that all of the people of the State of New York entitled to vote shall be registered-that is uniform-they shall be registered everywhere, in the country and in the city. But, sir, it would be perfect idleness and gross injustice to provide by law for the same means and the same caution and the same care of registering in the country as in cities. The statement of the fact is enough to convince every man that knows the difference between city and country, that I am right when I say that it would be really unjust to require in the country, where people are permanently located, and where there are no comers and goers, where the father is succeeded by his son, and no strangers come there except the hired men, to ask of them to be guided by the same precautions and restrictions as in the cities, where the whole world is afloat, and where thousands upon thousands are transient, that might vote but for the registry law. Now, sir, I submit that there must be a distinction in the legislation on this subject between the cities and the country. You take a city, an election district is composed of a very small territory; every man can go out in the evening after the day's work has been done, and especially with the short hours which are in vogue now, and have plenty of time to stop and register-he goes a quarter of a mile if you please, and thus every man can be registered, he being personally present to direct it. But how is it in the country? A town in the country is sometimes ten miles long, and the farmer-and they are all farmers pretty much, except the blacksmith, the merchant and tavern keeper-they must all go on their horses or on foot, five or six miles to the registry. There is a vast difference between demanding the personal presence of a man in the country, and the traveling five or ten miles to do an act which is wholly unnecessary by a man known to everybody on both sides, a man whose name stands there as his title deed stands in the record of the county, perfectly understood and perfectly known-that he shall run ten miles to be recorded every annual election when the inspectors on both sides, and the registrars on both sides, know every one of these men. But you go to the city, and a man does not know his next door neighbor; he may live there a year, and he does not know who he is or where he is from, or how long he has been there, nor whether he is entitled to vote or not. 579 The precautions are necessary there, sir, because there is a dense population, and there is a concentration of elements which require the administration of law in a different manner-with a degree of watchfulness, a degree of care, and a degree of skill in the prevention of fraud, which is wholly unknown in the country, and wholly unnecessary, too; and, therefore, I say, although I desire that registration should be uniform yet, I desire that the Legislature should be at liberty to make it applicable to the country and city according to the wants and necessities for the purity to the ballot-box. Mr. BICKFORD - I would inquire whether an amendment is now in order to that portion of the section, which the gentleman from Kings [Mr. Veeder] has moved to strike out? The PRESIDENTpro tem. - The Chair understands two amendments are already pending so that no further amendment at present, is in order. Mr. VEEDER called for the ayes and noes. A sufficient number seconding the call, the ayes and noes were ordered. The question was then put on the amendment of Mr. Veeder, and on Mr. Duganne's name being calledMr. DUGANNE - I have paired off with Mr. Larremore. There being no objection, Mr. Duganne was excused from voting. Mr. HATCH —I desire to say that I have paired off with Mr. E. P. Brooks, of Tioga. There being no objection Mr. Hatch was excused from voting. Mr. AXTELL-I desire to change my vote. I voted under the apprehension that no registry would be necessary, inasmuch as rebels, deserters and those who ran away to avoid conscription, shall be allowed to vote. I desire to change my vote to the negative. The question was put on the amendment of Mr. Veeder, and it was declared lost by the following vote: Ayes-Messrs. Barnard, Barto, Bergen, Burrill, Cassidy, Champlain, Chesebro, Cochran, Conger, Corning, Daly, Develin, Gross, Hitchman, Kernan, Law, Livingston, Loew, Lowrey, Magee, Mattice, Monell, More, Morris, Nelson, Paige, A. J. Parker, Robertson, Rogers, Schell, Schoonmaker, Schumaker, Seymour, Tappen, Tucker, Veeder, Wickham-37. Noes-Messrs. A. F. Allen, C. L. Allen, Alvord, Andrews, Archer, Armstrong, Axtell, Baker, Barker, Beadle, Beals, Beckwith, Bell, Bickford, Bowen, E. Brooks, W. C. Brown, Carpenter, Case, Cheritree, Clinton, Corbett, T. W. Dwight, Eddy, Ely, Endress, Farnum, Ferry, Flagler, Folger, Fowler, Fuller, Fullerton, Goodrich, Gould, Grant, iraves, Greeley, Hale, Hammond, Hand, Harris, Hitchcock, Houston, Hutchins, Ketcham, Kinney, Krum, Landon, Lapham, A. Lawrence, M. H. Lawrence, Lee, McDonald, Merrill, Merritt, Miller, Opdyke, C. E. Parker, Pond, Prindle, Prosser, Rathbun, Reynolds, Root, Rumsey, L. W. Russell, Sheldon, Sherman, Smith, Spencer, Stratton, M. I. Townsend, S. Townsend, Van Campen, Van Cott, 'Wakeman, Wales, Williams-79. Mr. M. I. TOWNSEND —I wish to move to reconsider the vote adopting the proposition of the gentleman from Tioga [Mr. Kinney]. The motion was laid on the table. Mr. LOEW - I move to amend the section as follows: After the word "citizens," on the fourth line, insert the words, "who shall be," and after the word "districts," on the fifth line, the words, "on.the ensuing day of election." The object of this is to provide that voters may have their names inserted on the register who may become voters between the day of registration and the day of election. The present registry law provides that, but it is not provided for in the section now before us. Mr. GREELEY - I trust that amendment will be adopted. I do not think it is necessary, but at the same time if it satisfies any one, I hope it will be adopted. Mr. ENDRESS - It is provided for in the section which reads thus: "who shall be entitled to the right of suffrage hereby established." Mr. LOEW —It does not say whether it is on the day of election or at the time the registry is made. The question was then put on the amendment of Mr. Loew. Mr. WEED called for the ayes and noes. Mr. VAN CAMPEN -I call for a division of the question. The PRESIDENT pro tern.- The question will first be taken on the insertion in line four. Mr. ALVORD —I hope the gentleman who called for the ayes and noes on this amendment will withdraw it. It seems to me there can be no objection to this amendment. Mr. WEED Mr. President - The PRESIDENT pro ter. - Discussion is not now in order. Mr. WEED -I do not wish to withdraw my call for the ayes and noes and have it beaten. The Clerk proceeded to call the roll and the amendment of Mr. Loew, was declared adopted by the following vote: Ayes-Messrs. Alvord, Andrews, Barker, Barnard,Beckwith,Bergen, Bickford, Bowen,E. Brooks, W. C. Brown, Burrill, Carpenter, Cassidy, Champlain, Chesebro, Clinton, Cochran, Conger, Corbett, Corning, Daly, Develin, T. W. Dwight, Eddy, Ely, Ferry, Flagler, Folger, Fuller, Fullerton Goodrich, Grant, Greeley, Gross, Hale, Hitchcock, Hitchman, Kernan, Ketcham, Kinney, Krum, Landon, Lapham, Law, A. Lawrence, Lee, Livingston, Loew, Lowrey, Ludington, Magee, Mattice, McDonald, Merritt, Miller, Monell, More, Morris, Nelson, Opdyke, Paige, A. J. Parker, C. E. Parker, Potter, Prindle, Reynolds, Rogers, Schell, Schoonmaker, Schumaker Seymour, Sheldon, Stratton, Tappen, M. I. Townsend, S. Townsend, Tucker, Van Cott, Veeder, Wakeman, Weed, Wickham-81. Noes- Messrs. A. F. Allen, C. L. Allen, Archer, Armstrong, Axtell, Baker, Beadle, Bell, Case, Cheritree, Endress, Farnum. Fowler, Graves, Hammond, Harris, M. H. Lawrence, Merrill, Prosser, Rathbun, L. W. Russell, Sherman, Smith, Spencer, Wales, Williams-26. Mr. WEED -If the first vote is indicative of the sense of the Convention, in order to save time 580 I will withdraw my call for the ayes and noes or the second part of the amendment. The question was put on the second part of th( amendment of Mr. Loew, and it was declarec adopted. Mr. BICKFORD-I move to amend the sectior by adding at the end of section 4 the words " Foi the purpose of town meetings and the election of town officers, the several towns shall be consid. ered as election districts within the meaning of this Constitution; but no registration of votes shall be required for town meetings, unless the Legislature in their discretion shall so provide." Mr. WEED - Am I right in understanding that the word general election was inserted? The PRESIDENT pro tem. - The Chair so understands. Mr. WEED —If so, there is no need to insert this. Mr. BICKFORD- Section 1 provides that an elector may vote in the district where he resides, not elsewhere. Now he cannot vote at town meetings within the strict construction of section 1, unless he votes at the district in which he resides. Therefore it is necessary to provide that the town shall be considered an election district within the meaning of the Constitution. Mr. ALVORD -I wish the gentlemen to explain to me whether a town is not an election district for the purpose of electing town officers. It strikes me so. Mr. BICKFORD - I propose to provide that it shall be considered for that purpose - an election district- that is all. The question was put on the amendment of Mr. Bickford, and it was declared lost. Mr. BARTO - I move to amend the section by inserting, after the word "law" in line seven, the words " and the oath of the applicant for registration as to his citizenship shall be deemed sufficient." Mr. KERNAN —I call for the ayes and noes. The object of this amendment, I suppose, is to prevent a difficulty which was found to be very onerous on inspectors; requiring, under the registry law, a man who had been naturalized to produce the best legal evidence of the fact, to wit, the naturalization papers issued to him or a copy of the record. The practice is found to be very onerous. I suppose that the oath would be suffi cient, the party to be subject to the pains and penalties of perjury if he swears falsely. Mr. RATHBUN - It seems to me it would not be very onerous for a man to carry his naturalization papers with him, or when he went to be registered. I do not exactly see how that can be. It seems to me to be very easy to carry his papers with him at the time. Mr. DEVELIN -I would suggest to the gentleman from Cayuga [Mr. Rathbun] that in many cases it has come within my knowledge in the city of New York that persons who had been naturalized have lost their naturalization papers, or that they had been destroyed by fires at the residence in which.persons resided. The distinction made by the law of 1865, in favor of any native-born citizen, authorizing him by his oath or the oath of his friends to prove his nativity and thus to have his name put upon the register is very unjust. The same law requires the naturalized citizen to produce his naturalization papers, and enacts that I no other evidence than the production of his naturalization papers should entitle him to have his name put upon the register unless he can prove to the satisfaction of the registrars that he has lost his papers, or in some other way that he has become a citizen of the United States; now this satisfaction of the registrars is a matter left to their own judgment. There is no appeal from their decision. There are no means by which a person who has voted for twenty years or more, being a naturalized citizen, can appeal. There is no court for him to appeal to from an unjust decision of these registrars-their judgment is final. We invite by every means in our power, ernigra tion; we ask people from abroad to come here and help our citizens to develop tho resources of our country; we bring then into our families, to assist our wives in the management of the household; we invite them to assist us in building our railroads and our canals and other works for the improvement of the country; and yet in the highest and most vital point-that of voting-we require from them a process which we do not require trom the nativeborn citizens. I think the naturalized citizen should be allowed to prove his right to be regist-red, and to vote in the same manner as any native-born person. If a person claiming to be a native-born citizen be challenged as to his birthplace, he can produce his friend or his parents to prove the place of his nativity; but if a foreignborn person should be challenged he cannot produce those who may hlve been present when he was naturalized, but he must produce his papers, and no evidence except those papers is by law absolutely sufficient and conclusive. Now, this is an injustice, which the people of the State of New York will not, m my judgment, sustain. Mr. DALY - I would add another reasonThe PRESIDENT pro tem.- The Chair will inform the gentleman, that two gentlemen have already spoken in favor of the amendment. Mr. HUTCHINS -I am opposed to this amendment for the reason that it is unnecessary. It savors too much of legislation, as do many other amendments which have been proposed. If the Legislature, in their wisdom, see fit to change the law that exists to-day, they can do it, but I see no reason why we should determine the matter, by a constitutional provision, of the character now proposed. For that reason I am opposed to it. I would leave this matter in the hands of the Legislature, untrammeled, believing that they will do justice to both city and country as the wants and necessities of the city and the country may hereafter be developed in this respect and the purity of elections may require. I believe that the Legislature will do justice to all parties concerned. So far, the registry law has worked well, and all these assertions in relation to its hardship in the city of New York are the merest nonsense and moonshine in the world. Talk about three days' time being required to get registered in the city of New York I Why, Mr. President, I have been registered at each election since the law was passed, and I have 581 never been detained five minutes; it is not a five minutes' walk in any election district in the city of New York from the place of residence of the voter to the place of registration. The place is kept open until nine o'clock in the evening; it is open several days, and no man is shut out; no man is compelled to wait unless he chooses. It is necessary for the purity of elections in the cities of New York and Brooklyn, and in the other large cities of this State, that we should have a registry law. Why, sir, last fall some sixteen thousand more were registered in the city of New York than cast their vote, and why did they not vote? Mr. DEVELIN -Because they did not have time. Mr. HUTCHINS - They did not vote, or many of them did not because they were found on investigation to have been illegally registered. It was known they were illegal voters, and they did not dare to present themselves for that reason. Why, sir, the names of children two years old were registered. In some districts, not finding names enough, they even registered under the name of goats and I don't know but pigs also, and would have undoubtedly voted upon them had not the fraud been discovered. The gentleman knows as well as I do that whole households were registered from the father down to the youngest son not two years old. Now, will you say it is not necessary that we should have a registry law in the city of New York? Why, you repeal that law and throw the gates open and give time enough to vote, and we can give you half a million of votes in New York city. There is no trouble about it. All we ask in the city of New York is, that we should have a good, fair operative registry law; we have it now, and I believe it will be continued in the future. It is for this reason that I object to putting any other restriction in the Constitution than is absolutely necessary, giving the Legislature discretion to do what in their judgment they may think wise and proper. Mr. DEVELIN -I ask permission of the Convention to make an explanation. The PRESIDENT pro ten. - It is not now in order. Mr. BARTO called for the ayes and noes on his amendment. A sufficient number seconding the call, the ayes and noes were ordered. The question was put on the amendment of Mr. Barto, and it was declared lost by the following vote: Ayes-Messrs. Barnard, Barto, Bergen, Burrill, Cassidy, Champlain, Chesebro, Clieton, Cochran, Conger, Daly, Develin, Greeley, Gross, Hardenburgh, Hitchman, Kernan, Law, Livingston, Loew, Lowrey, Mattice, Monell, More, Morris, Nelson, Paige, Potter, Robertson, Schell, Schoonmaker, Seymour, Tappen, S. Townsend, Tucker. Veeder, Weed, Wickham-38. Noes-Messrs. A. F. Allen, C. L. Allen, Alvord, Andrews, Archer, Armstrong, Axtell, Baker, Barker, Beadle, Beals, Beckwith, Bell, Bickford, Bowen, W. C. Brown, Carpenter, Case, Cheritree, Cooke, Corbett, T. W. Dwight, Eddy, Endress, Farnum, Ferry, Flagler. Folger, Fowler, Fuller, Fullerton, Goodrich, Gould, Grant, Graves, Hale, Hammond, Hand, Harris, Hitchcock, Houston, Hutichins. Ketcham, Kinney, Krum, Landon, Lapnam, A. Lawrence, M. H. Lawrence, Lee, Ludiugton, McDonald, Merrill, Merritt, Miller, Opdyke, C. E. Parker, Pond, Prindle, Rathbun, Reynolds, Root, Rumsey, L. W. Russell, Sheldon, Sherman, Smith, Spencer, Stratton, M. I. Townsend, Van Campen, Van Cott, Wakeman, Wales, Williams-75. Mr. DEVELIN —I offer the following amendment to the section: Add at the end thereof the words: "But no distinction shall be made in any such laws between a native born and naturalized citizen, as to the evidence to entitle such citizen to be registered." Mr. DEVELIN - The remarks which I had the honor of submitting a moment ago are applicable to this amendment. I propose, however, to reply to the gentleman from New York [Mr. Hutchins], who said there had been sixteen thousand voters registered before the last election more than had voted. He also remarked that even the pigs and the goats and children of two years of age had been registered. What the surnames of the pigs and cows were I cannot tell; but I know very well this fact, that the reason why many of the sixteen thousand did not vote arose from the fact that there was not time for the voters to deposit their votes in the ballot-box. Some of the election districts in the city of New York are so large that commencing at sunrise and ending at sunset, the voters could not vote amounting, in some places, to ten or fifteen per cent of the registered voters, and the papers of the city of New York, both democratic and republican, after the election was over and this fact had been ascertained, abused the common council for not having increased the number of election districts in the city. I know of no such fact as the gentlemen charged me with the knowledge of, that persons had been illegally registered. I know of no such fact whatever. Mr. ALVORD -Will the gentleman permit me to ask him a question? How many voters were there in each election district? Mr. DEVELIN -I do not now remember, but I recollect the fact that persons who desired to vote and who had been registered, had not an opportunity, for the time was too brief, or the election district too large. The election district cannot be altered between the first of August and the first of January by the common council. That is the principal reason why these sixteen thousand did not vote. It will readily occur to the gentlemen of this Convention that a great many voters may have gone out of the city, or have been sick, or were occupied so as to prevent them from going to the polls. Thus it always happens that a great many registered voters have not an opportunity of voting on the day of election. This is the explanation I wish to give of the remarks of the gentleman from New York [Mr. Hutchins]. The remarks which I hald the honor of submitting to the Convention a few moments ago were not intended in opposition to the registry law. I agree with my friend from Oneida [Mr. Kernan]; I am not opposed to a proper uniform registry 582 law for the purpose of securing purity of elections, but I think the argument used by the gentleman on the other side in regard to sixteen thousand non-voting registered voters, had no application whatever to a registry law, or the amendment which has been offered. Mr. ALVORD -I asked the 'gentleman from New York [Mr. Develin] a question which he did not deem fit to answer, probably because he had not the data before him I understand the fact to be that in the city of New York election districts are very small, and the number of voters in the district is very much less than they are in the country. At the last election we had probably as much excitement in my city as in New York, and ina single election district we were enabled to take the votes of eleven or twelve hundred without any difficulty through the day. If I under. stand it right, the election districts in the city of New York do not exceed the average of six hundred for the entire city; so there is no difficulty in that regard of getting out all the voters and giving them a full and fair opportunity to vote. I do not know how it operates in the city of New York, but the result of this necessity of the production of the naturalization papers, or a certified copy of them from the clerk's office in my city, had this ending at the last election, that over one dozen men in that city, who had voted continuously for years and years, and some of them twenty years, as naturalized voters, when they came to the polls they could not produce any naturalization papers, for they never had any. That is the reason. They never had them. Yet they had been voting, and voting persistently, year after 'year, on the ground that they were naturalized citizens of the.State of New York and of the United States of America. But when you came to put the test oath, where were their naturalization papers? They had to confess and acknowledge that they had to begin- again and be re-naturalized, for they had lost even the recollection bf the fact that they had ever been naturalized. Mr. DALY-I agree with my colleague from New York [Mr. Hutchins] that there is little difficulty in being registered in that city, probably less than in the country, but that is not a reason why there should not be a uniform rule of registration throughout the State. The object of requiring the presence of the elector to be registered is to prevent frauds on the part of the inspectors in putting names upon the registry lists. It is to prevent this that the elector is required to come and present himself that he may be identified and known before being registered. In my opinion this is quite as essential in the country. The gentleman from Saratoga [Mr. Pond], quoting the well known line of Cowper, that" God made the country, man the town," supposes there is a difference in this respect, between the persons who dwell in cities and those who dwell in the country. God made the men who live in the country as well as the men who live in the city. He distributed human character according to the organization of the individuals he created, and it is quite as possible for frauds of the character suggested to be perpetrated in the country, where there is a motive for them, as it is in the city. Perhaps they can be done more extensively in the city than in the country, but that is nit reason why they should not be also prevented in the country. I agree that it is proper that we should have a registry law. I am in favor of such a law; but I wish that if we have one it shall be uniform in its operation. With reference to the feature to which the gentleman from Onondaga [Mr. Alvord] objected it is, as I have said, of as much importance in the country, as far as I have any knowledge, as it would be in the city. I beg leave also to say, in reply to him, that the law recently enacted by the Legislature has operated very harshly in respect to the proof of the right of a naturalized citizen to vote. Under the law of 1802 minors, whose parents are naturalized, are naturalized by the naturalization of the parent, and I will mention one instance to show how severely the rule operates which requires a citizen thus naturalized to produce the naturalization papers of his parents. One of the oldest, one of the wealthiest, and one of the most respectable citizens of the city of New York who came to this country an infant; could not, under this law, produce his father's papers; though he had understood from his infancy that his father had been naturalized, and he had himself voted for fifty years. He came into my court to be naturalized in the usual mode, but, upon an inquiry, directed by myself, it was found that his father had been naturalized in my court in 1798, so that this gentleman's naturalization became unnecessary. A great number of persons come from other States, who, as well as persons long resident in this State, do not know when or where, or in what court their parent was naturalized, and they vote generally upon the statement of their father that he had been naturalized, or upon having seen his papers at some remote period, and it is utterly out of their power to procure the proof of the fact of their father's naturalization. As the time is short, I will add nothing further except to say, Mr President, that these difficulties are so considerable, that in my judgment it would be desirable, although it may be liable to the objection that it is more appropriately a matter of legislative detail than as a part of the fundamental law, that the oath of the applicant, subjects to the responsibilities which attaches to it, should of itself be sufficient proof. I do not urge the point now, but merely suggest it in connection with the proposition made by the gentleman from Rensselaer [Mr. M. I. Townsend] to reconsider this subject. Mr. HUTCHINS-As I understand the remarks of the gentleman from New York [Mr. Develin] he accounts for the fact that the entire registered vote was not cast at the last election upon the ground that the greater portion were prevented from putting their votes in because there was not time, or because the voters were sick or otherwise occupied. Now, the gentleman is a little forgetful of his facts. He will bear me witness, that after the presidential election of 1864 it was claimed that there were many voters in line prepared to vote, in some of the districts at the close of the election of that day, and that in some strong democratic districts they were deprived of many votes for that reason. The election districts were made by the common council, most of whom were members of the democratic party. It was therefore 583 said " it is in your power to make election districts enough, and if you have not now, see that you have a sufficient number the next time," and they went to work last year and divided the city up, making an additional number of election districts, so many that I defy the gentlemen here to.state any one district (and he can take his time) in New York where, when the polls were closed, a person was deprived of his right of voting for the reason that there was not time to get his vote in. I think it is exceedingly improbable, if we are to believe the statements that gentlemen make in regard to the stringency with which the excise law is carried into execution on Sunday (that day being in immediate proximity to Tuesday, the day of election), that many of that class of voters could have been sick and prevented from coming to the polls for that reason. Some of them may have been otherwise occupied or employed, which prevented their appearing at the polls on the day of election. I should not be surprised if that was the case. But the fact exists that there were some sixteen thousand persons registered who did not vote, and the further fact exists that upon an examination some twelve thousand of those names were found to have been fraudulently enrolled, that fact being proclaimed through the press, and these men, undoubtedly feeling guilty, did not present themselves to vote. I do not know what ticket they would have voted; I do not charge it upon any party; we are not here legislating, in making a Constitution for a party; it may be that they would have voted for the party to which I belong, and may be not, but at any rate they did not present themselves, and the examination of the registry list shows that some twelve thousand of that sixteen thousand, as I believe, were most clearly fraudulently enrolled. The question was then put on the amendment of Mr. Develin. The ayes and noes were called for. A sufficient number seconding the call, the ayes and noes were ordered, when the amendment was declared lost by the following vote: Ayes — Messrs. Barnard, Carto, Bergen, E. Brooks, Burrill, Cassidy, Champlain, Chesebro, Clinton, Cochran, Conger, Corning, Daly, Develin, Greeley, Gross, Hardenburgh, Hitchman, Kernan, Law, Livingston, Loew, Lowrey, Magee, Mattice, Monell, Morris, Nelson, Paige, A. J. Parker, Potter, Robertson, Schell, Schumaker, Seymour, Tappen, S. Townsend, Tucker, Veeder, Weed, Wickham, Young-42. Noes —Messrs. A. F. Allen, C. L. Allen, N. M. Allen, Alvord, Andrews, Archer, Armstrong, Axtell, Baker, Barker, Beadle, Beals, Beckwith, Bell, Bickford, Bowen, W. C. Brown, Carpenter, Case, Cheritree, Cooke, Corbett, T. W. Dwight, Eddy, Ely, Endress, Farnum, Ferry, Flagler, Folger, Fowler, Fuller, Fullerton, Goodrich, Gould, Grant, Hale, Hammond, Hand, Harris, Hitchcock, Houston, Hutchins, Ketcham, Kinney, Krum, Landon, Lapham, A. Lawrence, M. H. Lawrence, Lee, Ludington, McDonald, Merrill, Merritt, Miller, Opdyke, C. E. Parker, Pond, Prindle, Prosser, Rathbun, Reynolds, Root, L. W. Russell, Sheldon, Sherman, Smith, Spencer, Stra~tton, M. I. Townsend, Van Campen, Van Cott, Wakeman, Wales, Williams-75. Mr. HARRIS - I offer the following amendment: "Strike out all after the word 'made,' in line five, so as to strike out 'it shall be made six days before the election.'" I am in favor of providing in the Constitution for a registry law, and providing that no person shall be allowed to vote who has not been registered according to law; but all beyond that is a proper subject for legislative debate, and I hope, therefore, that this provision in relation to the registration of voters six days before election will be left to the Legislature; it is a proper subject for legislative consideration. Mr. GREELEY -The object of the committee who framed this article, I submit (whether wise or unwise I leave to the Convention to say), was to leave as little as possible to the discretion of the Legislature. It is not at all a question of the wisdom or the virtue of the Legislature; but with reference to this important fact, I pray the Convention not to disregard that what you put in the Constitution of the State you may fairly presume the people of the State to know; whereas what is scattered throughout fifty or one hundred volumes of statutes you know and I know that very many of our people do not, and will not know. This distinction is exceedingly important. The people of the State are fairly presumed and bound to read and understand the Constitution of their State, and they are obliged to conform to its requirements; but they cannot know everything that is contained in all the volumes of the revised and unrevised statutes. Now, if you let these words stand right here, every man will have notice, he will have sufficient notice-" Sir, get your name on the register, or see that it is there, at least six days before election, otherwise you cannot vote." Whereas, if you strike that out, a man may come up to the polls to vote, and he will be told, "You have no right to vote; you ought to be registered..The Legislature changed the law Last year, and required the registration to be made so many. days before election." How plainly this proposition sets everything afloat, how it makes matters uncertain. I have voted all along against the majority of this Convention on several questions, on the faith of of this, and I am perfectly willing to trust the oath of the elector without requiring him personally to put his name on the registry every year, if you will give me six days to scrutinize and see whether he is entitled to vote or not; but if you will allow him to register the night before, or the day of election, how can you know what names are justly there? This is a reasonable and proper notice given to the voter, to be registered, and to see that lie is properly and not illegally registered. I pray the Convention not to strike out this clause. Mr. M. I. TOWNSEND-I have tried to govern my action in this case without any reference to there being two parties in this State, although I have never forgotten it. I voted against most of those who agree with me generally in politics this morning, and tried to act consistently with my views and with the best interests of the State. But I would like to have all parties remember that there is a great 584 body of men in this State who are opposed to any registration at all, and when our friends propose to strke out this requirement of six days registration, I want them to remember other persons' views. Those who have these motives may sometimes have control of the Legislature, and I want them to fancy what kind of registration will be likely to be left if members of the Legislature should have the power of making the law, and have the power of sweeping the whole thing substantially off the statute book. I hope there will be some sort of hitching left in this provision somewhere so that we can hitch something to, so long as the Constitution stands, that we may have some certainty of finding out whether a man who offers himself to vote is entitled to vote or not. The question was put on the amendment of Mr. Harris, and it was declared lost. Mr. SCHUMAKER- I offer the following amendment: Add after the word "election," in line 6, "and the Legislature shall pass no laws preventing the elector, upon the presentation of proper proofs, from depositing his ballot on the day of such election." I hope my friend from Onondaga [Mr. Alvord] will not spring the party rattle upon me on this amendment. My objection to the registry law in the committee, as the able gentleman from Westchester [Mr. Greeley] will bear me witness, was that the registry law was inoperative, or as made by the Legislature was a law that absolutely disfranchised a great many people in this State. First, if a man is sick on the day of registration, or a few days before registration, they have made no provision by which he can be registered,provided he is sick at home, though all of his family go and say "my father is sick at home, and I want to register his vote." There has been no such wise, judicious provision in the legislative act, saying that that man's name may be registered. On election day he may be well enough to vote, but still he is deprived of voting because the Legislature unwisely and unfairly, have said he must register his own vote himself. Now I believe, with the gentleman from Westchester [Mr. Greeley], that we should put something in this Constitution the Legislature cannot avoid. In some way or shape let us put into the Constitution what shall not disfranchise the citizens of this State. Now as to absence. A man may be in the southern part of the United States, absolutely and necessarily employed there, and unable to arrive here until the morning after the day of registration, he may meet with some accident in the southern part of the country, or may be unable to connect with the trains. Some gentleman says " he might run against the nigger," but democrats do not do that, sir. I have known of a person who arrived here in this way. but who failed to register on Saturday morning, and he could not vote. -He was a tax payer and a good citizen. He was not a pig or a goat, as my friend from New York [Mr. Hutchins] described, but he had not the opportunity of voting on account of this peculiar phraseology in the statute. It is unfair that men who are sick or absent should be so deprived of voting on election day. Now, there is another reason. I have Peen persons, these "repeaters," as the gentleman from Westchester [Mr. Greeley] says, impersonate an Irishman or a German. They are sharp, shrewd Yankees among us. I know of my own knowledge where a German groceryman had by mistake gone to the wrong polling place, and before he could get out, untie his horse and go to the right place, one of these sharp fellows, who saw the mistake, got out and around to the proper polling place, impersonated the German, voted for him, and you could not make the German understand why he was not permitted to vote. But so it was; this sharp fellow had voted and disappeared, and by the board of registry the real party was supposed to be the imposter, and they could not make him understand how he had been defrauded of his vote. They told him it appeared he had voted the whole number of tickets, and any other party by that name could not vote. Mr. MERRILL-I would like to inquire of the gentleman if that was in Kings county? that virtuous community where lie told us the other day they had no frauds. Mr. SCHUMAKER-Will the gentleman give me any reason for asking it, and I will answer it? It seems to be a brainless question. I give this as as an incident, not of their buying votes in Kings county and selling them, but of sharp, shrewd " repeaters;" and I think both parties claim their share of them, who take advantage of ignorant men who have not the English language to express themselves, and do not know where to deposit their vote; and for this reason I hope the amendment will be adopted. Mr. BELL-From my stand-point, the question of registry seems to be a very simple question. Both parties agree that a registry law is necessary. I believe no gentleman has spoken here who would not provide for some sort of registry law in the Constitution. The question simply is, what kind shall we provide? It is evident from what has been said, that the country requires a different registry law from that of the city, because the circumstances are entirely different. The gentleman who last spoke admits that, although there is no corruption in his district, yet there was one man who person ated another and voted. Now a unform registry law, a law that would prevent even "repeaters" in the city, would be entirely unnecessary and burdensome in the country. The voters there are known. I suppose there are not ten voters in many of the towns who are not known to the principal men of those towns, and this practice could not take place. The evidence that a man should produce at the registry, should be in my opinion the very highest and best kind of evidence that can be produced. If a certificate of naturalization is better than a man's oath, let the certificate of naturalization or the record from the registry be produced. This is the highest evidence, and I believe all lawyers will insist it is the proper evidence. A native-born citizen can produce no such evidence, therefore let him produce the highest evidence within his power. This would obviate the necessity of the amendment proposed recently, that the same kind of evidence should be produced by the naturalized citizen as by the native-born citizen. This is-impossible. The gentleman from Kings [Mr. Schumaker], who last spoke, imagined that it might 585 be oppressive to require a man to be registered sands upon thousands of gentlemen livilng in the six days before election. He says a man might city of New York, who have not changed their be sick and unable to attend. It is very oppres- residence for ten or fifteen years past, and you sive also, I might say, to require a man to be have no right to impose a burden upon that class present when he votes. He may be sick on election of citizens which you do not impose upon gentleday, but the law requires him to be there in per- men living in the country. I am in favor of a son. The requirement of the registry law is no uniform law; I. am also in favor of A pure ballot, more oppressive in one case than in the other, and and I know of no way to secure a pure ballot certainly he will have two or three chances to be unless you impose responsibilities and burdens. registered where he has but one to vote. It can- uniform in their character upon the people of all not be oppressive, and why do men start such parts of the State. Sir, I cannot comprehend the unreasonable arguments against the registry law change of opinion in this Convention between the when they admit it is necessary, and also admit vote that was taken to-day and the vote that was that there is a different class of citizens in the taken on Monday last. Then, by a vote of 50 to city than in the country? It does seem to 45, we declared ourselves opposed to discriminatme that we are spending a great deal of ing against the cities of the State. We have had time on this matter-more than is neces- a vote this morning of 71 against 43 in favor of aary, when we all agree substantially that this discrimination. I suppose I must attribute some kind of a registry law is necessary, and why this great change on the part of the members of magnify the difficulties by introducing here entirely the Convention to the special edict issued by the unnecessary amendments? We might agree sub- gentleman from Onondaga [Mr. Alvord], intistantially on some kind of registry law and pass it, mating to this body that they had the power, and and not spend day after day here in talking and that it had become necessary to exercise the debating questions that will leave us in the end power. Let me remind the gentleman that upon no better than when we commenced, questions the a subject like this there may be an appeal even nature of which do not require the amount of time from this Convention to the people, and that if spent on them. It is time we should show some you desire a pure ballot-box, you have no right practical talent, at least in dispatching this work. to enter upon these discriminations. Sir, the If we continue to debate every minor question, such representatives of the minority of this Convenas we have had here this morning, we will have tion may justly make that appeal. It has been no Constitution to submit until after the election. said also by the gentleman from Saratoga [Mr. I had not designed to say a word on this subject; Pond] in regard to the great cities of this State, I merely mention it as it occurs to me. and especially in regard to the city of New York Mr. E. BROOKS-I cannot for the life of me that it may be necessary to put it under the concomprehend why the gentlemen in the majority trol of gentlemen representing the interior of the of this body are continually drawing distinctions State. The rural districts are now in the majority as they do between the city and the country. Sir, in the Legislature of the State. Let me tell that genI have been in favor of a registry law, and am tleman everytime the Legislature of New York has upon the record in favor of such a law for some interfered with the city of New York, that the sixteen years past as a member of the Legislature, practical effect of such interference has been an when there were exciting discussions upon ques- immense increase of the democratic majority in lions of this kind. I was in favor of a registry that city and it will be so just so long as you unlaw then; I am in favor of one to-day. I regard dertake to exercise political power over that city. it just as necessary for the constitutents of my Legislative interference does not decrease the friend from Jefferson [Mr. Bell] as I do for the ballot there, while it has very largely increased people of the city of New York, and all that the taxes, and the misgovernment of the city. has been said on this subject is, on the one You have given us by legislative enactments, some hand,' in the form of a sneer toward the cities nine city commissions. You have given us some of the State, and, on the other hand, a sort of three local legislative bodies. You have multipretension on the part of the gentlemen repre- plied our taxes two-fold and three-fold, and just senting the rural districts that they are, in some so long as you undertake to discriminate between respects, the superiors of the gentlemen living in the city and the country, and to set yourselves up the city. either as better than other men, or as purer than Mr. BELL-Will the gentleman allow me one other men, just so long will you fail to accomplish moment? Wouldthe gentlemanrequire the same any good result thereby. I hope, Mr. President, kind of registry law in the country as in the city? therefore, that upon the sober second thought of Mr. E. BROOKS-I would, and for this reason, this Convention, the motion made by the gentlethat, although it may be in some respects more man from Rensselaer [Mr. Seymour] will prevail, convenient for gentlemen living in the city to and that in the end of our deliberation upon this register their names, nevertheless as the motive subject there may be a uniform law throughout of registry is to secure a pure ballot and an hon- the State in regard to the registry. est vote, I think that every gentleman residing Mr. MILLER-I did not intend when I came in the country can afford to put himself to the lit- here to take any part in this discussion. I tie inconvenience necessary to secure the most wish now to say but a word, and to protest desirable end. against the vote which I shall give against this Mr. BELL-Is it necessary he should appear amendment and against the vote which I have in person every year? already given in favor of striking out the clause Mr. BROOKS-It is no more necessary in requiring uniformity in the registry law being the city than in the country. There are thou- interpreted as any.reflection upon cities or any 74 586 reflection upon the party that is in the minority the cities and the villages that I have offered this here. And I will say to my friend from Albary amendment excluding ii from the country, and [MIr. Parker] that in voting against requiring this not leaving the legislative power to inflict it there. law to be uniform, I am here to-day representing It is ertirely ulnlleeessary in the country, as has the democratic portion of the citizens of Dela- been already remarked by many gentlemen on this ware county as much as I am the republicanl floor. Every voter within a town in the country portion. We do here to-day merely say this, that is known at the polls without the formality, exa registry law to be of any value at all, should be pense or inconvenience of being registered there. more strict for the city than for the country. A Hence I offer this amendment, and while I would certain evil exists and it requires a remedy. not, for any trivial cause, ask the ayes and noes, That evil is not as great in the country as in the I ask them on this question. city. We want to know who are the legal and Mr. CHAMPLAIN —I trust, sir, this amendproper voters both in the city and in the country. ment will be adopted. If I understand it corIn the country where the people are few, and rectly, it strikes out the country entirely from the where the country is sparsely settled, every citi- operation of any registry law, and only empowers zen is known to his neighbor, is known to the the Legislature to apply it to cities. While, sir, I inspector of election. They need not such a strin- have no particular sympathy with those gentlemen gent registry law as in the city where the citizen who have proposed so many amendments to peris not known to his next neighbor. This is the feet the details of this law, yet I have steadily reason. We require a remedy in proportion to voted with them to accomplish such results. It the evil, and where the evil does not exist, we do is well known upon this floor that I have advonot require that remedy. That is the whole of it. cated the entire abrogation of this power, and to Now to say that the same remedy should be applied take from the Legislature all right or authority in the country as in the city, to my mind seems over this matter, confining your laws to election about as sensible as to require that the physicians days. If you will look into the criminal statistics should one day of the year prescribe uniform of the State, you will see that for thirty prescriptions throughout the State, and that no years not that number of persons have man in New York should be required to take been convicted of illegal voting, while thirty jalap unless every man in the country was re- or forty thousand or perhaps fifty thousand quired to take it at the same time. We want a have been convicted for other crimes against remedy to answer to the evil, and if the evil does property and personal security. I undertook to not exist, we do not need the remedy; and I will show that every day this board of officers sat, it tell the gentleman from Richmond [Mr. E. Brooks] cost from $75,000 to $100,000, and every day an that we are in favor of a uniform law that shall attendance was required of one-fifth or one-tenth remedy an uniform evil, but where the evil does of the voters of this State, it was a tax upon the not exist, why put the burden upon the people? productive industry of the country, of from $200,He is not uniform as far as the burden is concern- 000 to $400,000. And this debate has not changed ed. In the city, the burden of registration is but my mind in this matter at all. I commit nobody slight to what it is in the country. If a man has to the principle that I have advocated upon this but to walk a quarter of a mile, it takes but five floor, but the consequences of this position I am minutes to be registered, and in the country he prepared to take with the people. The gentleman must go ten or twelve miles. from Westchester [Mr. Greeley] has told us that Mr. E. BROOKS -I have known people in the he does not want to send the voter to the session city of New York waiting several hours, from six laws. Sir, as long as you give this power to the in the evening till midnight, in order to vote. Legislature, you must send him there. These Mr. MILLER -I have my information from laws will change with the varying and changing gentlemen on this floor from New York, but I of the political complexion of Legislatures, and think the distance is but trifling. They have they will be just as bad as the venality three days for registration. They can take their and partisan prejudices of those Legislatime, and take it out of the hours of work, but in tures may make them. I ask whether a the country they must take a whole day if the registration law is to be a burden on the voter is required to go in person; and I ask the country or the city at such an enormous expense gentleman from Richmond [Mr. E. Brooks] why upon the tax payers and industrial Interests of this he will impose this burden upon the democrats of State. What is it worth? It is shown by the Delaware. declaration of the gentleman from New York [Mr. Mr. PROSSER- I offer the following amend- Hutchins] that sixteen thousand persons obtruded ment: their names upon the list in the city of New Strike out all after the word "established" in York who had no right to vote, and including line three, and insert in lieu thereof the follow- goats, pigs and infants two years old; and he ing: " And the Legislature shall provide that a asks why they did not vote? because they were uniform register of all the citizens entitled to the " spotted." You cannot go to the intelligent peoright of suffrage in such election district within pie of my section of the State and tell them that the incorporated cities and villages of this State, it is right to put such a burden upon them for the and not elsewhere, shall be made and completed purpose of empowering the Legislature to enact at least six days before any election, and no per- such laws as that. I want the announcement made son shall vote at such election who shall not to go to the country that the people may see its have been registered according to law." enormity. It is a broad macadamized road to It is so entirely apparent that the registration fraud through which you can drive a coach and required by the committee should be confined to eight horses. Sixteen thousand illegal voters 587 have passed the ordeal of your commissioners of sustain registry laws. He says there were six. police, by whom, I believe these registry officers teen thousand who passed the ordeal of registraare appointed; and yet it is proposed to put this tion in New York last year. Yes; but they did enormous expense upon the people of the State, not pass the polls. We looked over the list, and and this is the poor return you make to them for we found this man did not live where he is regisit. This debate has only satisfied me that the true tered as living, and there is no house there, and ground to take is to strike down this power of this place is a lumber-yard, and so on; and those registration entirely, confine your laws to regulat- so falsely registered were marked men, and they ing the election, and raise the grade of this crime did not dare come forward and vote. Registrafor illegal voting from mere misdemeanor to felony. tion is required not so much to keep names off the This will tend nmore than any registry law to de- list as to keep out unlawful votes. If non-voters ter men from illegal voting. Throw around a put their names on the list, and you give us six registry law all the safeguards you can, but it days in which to detect them, we will still be useless, as the gentleman has proved must take the chance of their getting in their it to be by an admission of facts more forcible votes. But if you allow every man who may come than any argument I can suggest. It will be an to the polls to swear in his vote if he will, where is enormous expense upon the tax payers of the the securityagainst illegal voting? We ask, "Who State, for a purpose which will prove wholly un- are you?" " John Williams." Well, I challenge availing. I trust it will be stricken out of this you." He swears he is a voter, and he votes; provision. then he goes away, and is never seen there again. Mr. GREELEY-The State of New York has He has committed a felony, you say; but he is out over one thousand miles of boundary contermini- of the State in an hour, or he is in the lower part ous with other States and with foreign countries. of the city, and has voted, and at once taken ship A dense population is located upon its borders in and gone away. The object is not so much to punseveral States, who are often-in Pennsylvania, ish the offender as to prevent men from voting at least-interested and excited about our elec- illegally; and that is done, and can only be done, by tions. The proposition of the gentleman from Al- a registration. legany [Mr. Champlain] is that any man who The, question was then put on Mr. Prosser's chooses may go forward and swear he is a voter amendment, and it was declared lost. and vote. That is the proposition, made here two Mr. CONGER-I offer the following amendor three times. I take that to be a distinct in- ment to the section, by adding at the end thereof vitation to fraud-not an opportunity merely, but the following: an invitation. We have had contested elections "But the Legislature shall not establish any in this Capitol which have proved that Pennsyl- laws for registry, in any city, village or town, of vanians from Pike county and Wayne, have come electors entitled to the right of suffrage in over and voted in Sullivan county in this State. any election district therein, on any succeeding In the election of 1844, it was not merely day of election, unless said laws are severally charged, but known, that a very large uniform in their requirements for all cities, and for vote was thrown for President in this all villages, and for all towns." State by men who came from Canada for I propose this amendment because it provides that purpose. They did not vote in the cities a system of registry for towns separate from that either, but in the rural districts. Let me illus- of villages, and again distinct from that of trate by a case: The township of Clinton, county of cities, and secures a universal registration by Clinton, is almost entirely settled by Irish people appropriate methods for these several kinds -not therefore less worthy than other people- of localities. I have taken the section as but they are intensely partisan, and their vote is far as it has been perfected this morning probably twenty to one on one side. A large and endeavored to make the best use I can of the proportion of them are yet unnaturalized. You propositions that have been inserted, which are say, if here are people who are not voters, they pertinent as constitutional provisions, and have can be challenged, and their voting stopped. added the generic classes of registry. But I Why, sir, the power of challenge is of no use would first ask gentlemen who are so earnest in without the will to challenge. Suppose it is de- the use of the positive word "shall," what sirable to put up the vote of that township from remedy they propose, in case the Legislature dis260 to 400, by means of illegal voters, what is to obeys the mandate of the Constitution and reprevent it? The half-dozen voters in the minor- fuses to provide any, or positively obliterates all ity, if they venture to come to the polls at all, registration laws. Is it designed to indict the slip in their votes and slink away; or, if two or Legislature as a body, or will some one man be three of them remain, they dare not challenge that singled out as the principal conspirator in its violaoverwhelming, excited majority-intent on swell- tion and thus exposed to infamy, or is it designed ing their vote to the utmost. Where is your se- that the Legislature may, or the courts, should decurity against this? There are large numbers dare that any general election held after such re. there who are not naturalized as well as those fusal to pass, or such destruction of laws of regiswho are- all good men, I suppose, but tratiqo by the Legislature, shall be null and void? yet violently partisan. Pretty soon, there comes In all the offers I have made heretofore, or which a time when no one is around the polls who is not seems to me have been appropriately made to perof the majority; and that gives opportunity for feet this section, it is sufficient to inhibit the these men to go up and vote. Sir, the gentleman Legislature from doing certain things. On the from Allegany does not represent Allegany on other hand you undertake to declare what the this question * for she has always sent men here to Legislature shall do, but yet you have no remedy, 588 and you propose no remedy in case they violate one form for the towns at large. I propose this your fundamental law. What is the funda- amendment in the hope that we may be relieved mental law worth, in such an event as that? of any further embarrassment on this question, It I understand what the section ought to and may be enabled to perfect this section and be, it should be composed of certain general bring the Convention to a final vote upon it. declaratory provisions establishing general The question was then put upon the amendment rights, and it should inhibit the Legislature of Mr. Conger, and it was declared lost, on a divifrom doing certain things, and there it sion, by a vote of 44 to 58. should end. That has been the concurrent opin- Mr. ROBERTSON-I offer the following amendion advanced by the gentlemen who have on va- ment. Add at the end of the fourth section the rious parts ofthe amendments to this section, as following words: proposed by the Committee on the Right of Suf- "And in case of any question arising at the frage, expressed views coincident with all author- time of voting, as to a right to vote, the same itative expositions of the just design of a Consti- rules of evidence in regard to evidence offered, tution heretofore received. But we have been shall be observed as are applied by courts of law told this morning that we must pass certain laws to questions of fact." for a specific purpose. Again, the whole artillery Some of the provisions of the registry laws that of gentlemen who have spoken in favor of these have been passed in this State have laid down stringent provisions have been directed against a rules in regard to evidence, that I apprehend encertain class of citizens, and no gentleman has tirely do away with the rules of evidence that been so mealy-mouthed as to refuse to say he apply to other questions of fact. It is necessary, means to discriminate against the alien as in favor at the time of the election, that the inspector of the native-born citizen. If gentlemen will should be governed in regard to the question of take the trouble to look into the census, they will registry, under the law, by the same rules that are find four hundred thousand aliens recorded as liv- applicable in all other cases where there are dising in the State of New York, and but very little puted questions of fact between litigating parties. more than two hundred thousand of those are in Therefore, I offer the amendment to meet that the cities of New York and Brooklyn, against difficulty, and upon this general subject I would which cities the whole effort of the majority here like to make a few remarks in reference to the is directed to force upon them a partial registra- charge which has been made here as to the excess tion law. Gentlemen will remember that we have in the registration of voters beyond the number distributed over the surface of this State nearly of votes deposited. Whether the charge was inas many aliens as exist in the cities; and while tended to apply to one party or the other, and to they are directing their ingenuity against that class whichever party it was intended to apply, that of inhabitants within their bounds, they must excess did not rise from the activity or the remember that these inventions of theirs may energy of the commissioners of police of New return to plague the inventors. My object York in ferreting out the sixteen or eighteen is to secure a registration law that shall be thousand men who were registered, but who did uniform in the whole State, and also with not vote on the day of the election. Any one who reference to certain localities. If we can have a believes that may believe any other suggestion uniform registration law to meet the views of that is incredible in modern times, or any miracle gentlemen who say we need one kind of registra- equal to those miracles recorded in our Scriptures. tion law in the city, and another kind of registra- It arose simply from the fact that the election distion law in the village, and another kind of regis- tricts in the city of New York at the la-t presitration law in the country at large, I cannot see dential election were so few in number that perany reason, as the gentleman from Saratoga [Mr. sons were excluded from voting, as I can say Pond] intimated this morning, why a man shall from my own personal knowledge that from sixty be free in a single county from the duty of reg- to seventy were waiting at the polls, where I had istering his name merely because he has to ride a stood for four hours waiting to vote, were excluded certain distance. Will the gentleman put the by the setting of the sun from voting for the cancouinty of New York against any other county in didates they had selected. After that the election the State? If two hundred thousand men have districts were changed. A subsequent law having to travel half a mile, is there any more harm that provided that it was only necessary to register'at ten thousand men should travel ten miles? Is one election, there was no re-registering, and the not the physical effort in the one case just as list remained the same for both elections. But in great as it is in the other, and why shall men who the new election districts the old lists-the original insist that registration is necessary for the registration lists-were adopted in each of these purpose of protecting us against the vote of the separate districts of the original and parent disalien being unnecessarily cast when they have tricts, if I may so speak, out of which the new distwo hundred thousand electors scattered all tricts were formed, so that there was great difficulty. through the State -why should they claim that great embarrassment to many citizens of New the towns in this State should be exempt from York to determine which district they should vote some form of registry. I submit, sir, that if we in. It is because of that, and not of the fact are to have anything secured by the Constitution, that the gentleman from New York [Mr. Hutchit should be in a form in which the Legislature ins] has suggested, that they were afraid to voto, shall be debarred from any other form than that that the sixteen or eighteen thousand registered which we suppose or propose is right and proper voters did not vote. And thus this bugbear of in itself, that we shall have one form of registra- eighteen thousand men attempting to vote withtion for the cities, one form for the villages, and out the right is exploded and destroyed. The 589 city of New York has lived as secure as it was inspectors are now authorized to proceed in deterbefore, notwithstanding this charge that has been mining cases that may arise before them contrary brought against her by one of her sons. to the law of evidence, instead of in conformity Mr. HUTCHINS —The gentleman who last with it. addressed the Convention [Mr. Robertson] could The question was then put on the amendment not have read the law of 1866. Section two of of Mr. Robertson, and it was declared lost by the that law provided that no person in the city of following vote: New York or Brooklyn should be placed upon Ayes - Messrs. Barnard. Barto, Bergen, E. the registry list unless he appeared in person Brooks, Burrill, Cassidy, Champlain, Chesebro, before the inspectors and proclaimed his right to Cochran, Conger, Corning, Daly, Develin, Gould, be so registered. Under that provision, last year, Gross, Hardenburgh, Hitchman, Law, Livingston, a new list was made out, and every person whose Loew, Lowrey, Magee, Mattice, Monell, Morris, name was there, appeared in person to be regis- Nelson, Paige, A. J. Parker, Potter, Robertson, tered. Rogers, Schell, Schoonmaker, Schumaker, SeyMr. DEVELIN-The gentleman from New mour, Tappen, S. Townsend, Tucker, Veeder, York who has just taken his seat [Mr. Hutchins], Verplanck, Wickham-41. has not observed all of the law of 1866 himself. If Noes- Messrs. A. F. Allen, C. L. Allen, Alvord, he had read the second section, he would find that Andrews, Archer, Armstrong, Axtell, Baker, my friend from New York [Mr. Robertson] was Barker, Beadle, Beals, Beckwith, Bell, Bick.ord, correct in his remarks. The second section of the Bowen, W. C. Brown, Carpenter, Case, Cheritree, act of 1866 declares that the registers shall use the Clinton, Cooke, Corbett, T. W. Dwight, Eddy, Ely, old poll lists; but that if the names of any new Endress, Farnum, Ferry, Flagler, Folger, Fowler, voters are to be put upon the poll list, they must Fuller, Fullerton, Goodrich, Grant, Graves, Greeappear in person. The fact stated by the gentleman ley, Hale, Hammond, Hand, Harris, Hitchcock, from New York [Mr. Robertson] is correct; that Houston, Hutchins, Ketcham, Kinney, Krum, the names ofpersonson the poll list of the preced- Landon, Lapham, A. Lawrence, M. H. Lawrence, ing election, who had changed their residence to Lee, Ludington, McDonald, Merrill, Merritt, Milother elec.tiou districts than the one in which they ler, Opdyke, C. E. Parker, Pond, Prindle, Prosser, had voted, would appear upon the newregistry made Rathbun, Reynolds, Root, Rumsey, L. W. Russell. from the poll list of their former residence, and also Sheldon, Sherman, Smith, Spencer, Stratton, M. 1. upon the new registry of the election district into Townsend, Van Campen, Van Cott, Wakeman, which they had removed, and where they had had Wales, Williams-78. their names registered upon personal application. On motion of Mr. MORRIS the Convention took It is well known that a considerable percentage of a recess until four o'clock. the population of the city of New York frequently changes residence, and that fact alone AFTERNOON SESSION. would account for the omission of one-half of the The Convention re-assembled at four o'clock, the apparent sixteen thousand voters whose names President pro tern., Mr. FOLGER, in the chair. had been registered but did not vote. The gen- Mr. GOULD-I have received a letter to-day tleman challenged me to give an instance in from my colleague, Mr. Silvester, stating that he which a person has been unable to vote because is engaged in court and cannot be present at the of the numbers who had been registered in his sessions of the Convention until Friday next, and district, and of the shortness of the time. My he asks leave of absence until that time. friend from New York [Mr. Robertson] has given There being no objection leave was granted. an instance in his district. In the very ward in Ir. C. C. DWIGHT-I ask indefinite leave of which the gentleman [Mr. Hutchins] lives there absence for Mr. George W. Curtis, who is confined has been no change in the number of the election to his home by reason of illness. districts, although the population has very largely There being no objection, leave was granted. increased since 1864. I have no doubt that in The PRESIDENT announced the pending questhe first district of that ward, with which the tion to be on the amendment offered by Mr. Chamgentleman [Mr. Hutchins] is probably not very plain to the fourth section reported by the conwell acquainted, inasmuch as it is a strong demo- mittee as amended, on motion of Mr. Kinney. cratic district, very many voters were prevented Mr. SPENCER offered the following amendfrom voting, by reason of the facts that I have ment: stated. The SECRETARY proceeded to read the amendMr. HUTCHINS-Mr. President- ment as follows: The PRESIDENT pro tern. —The gentleman Insert after the word "law," in line seven, the from New York [Mr. Hutchins] having spoken words "except electors absent from their homes once, is not permitted to speak again under the in time of war, in the actual military or naval serthe rule. vice of the United States." Mr. AXTELL-I submit that the amendment Mr. SPENCER-The object of the amendment of the gentleman from New York [Mr. Robertson] is to provide for a seeming contradiction between should not prevail. If it should prevail, it would section 3 and the provision to which this amendbe necessary for this Convention to provide means ment is appended. Section 3 provides for the by which the Legislature should enact that the taking of the votes of electors absent from the registers should be furnished with copies of State, and this clause, without the amendment, Greenleaf, Phillipps and Starkey, in order that they prohibits any person from voting who is not regmay understand the laws of evidence. istered. irr. ROBERTSON- I would ask whether the Mr. CHESEBRO- I would suggest to the gen 590 tleman from Steuben [Mr. Spencer] that it would Greeley] read again. I do not think I fully unbe sufficient to say " except as hereinbefore pro- derstood it when I accepted it. vided," to save verbiage. The SECRETARY proceeded to again read the Mr. SPENCER -I have no objection to that, amendment of Mr. Greeley. provided it is deemed sufficiently definite to em- Mr. SPENCER-I withdraw my acceptance of brace the class of persons mentioned. the amendment, after hearing it more distinctly. Mr. ALVORD -In order to make it definite, The question then recurred on the amendment I would suggest that the amendment read " except of Mr. Spencer, and on a division the vote was as provided in the third section of this article." announced to be 44 to 28. Mr. SPENCER-I accept the amendment. A DELEGATE-There was no quorum voting. Mr. WICKHAM-I think there is no reason The question was again put on the amendment why soldiers absent should not be regis- of Mr. Spencer, when the vote was announced to tered as well as any other citizens. There is just be 47 to 30. as much liability to the commission of frauds in The PRESIDENT pro tem.-There is no quotaking the votes of persons who are absent, when rum voting. perhaps, there is no opportunity to interpose by a Mr. RATHBUN-I call for the ayes and noes. 'challenge, as there is among our own neighborsr Mr. VEEDER-I rise to a point of order. Can whom we know, the registry of whom we can we proceed when there is no quorum, to call the correct if it is erroneous. There is no reason why ayes and noes? Can we proceed to act upon the soldiers should not be registered as any other amendment when it is declared that there is no citizens. I understand that was the rule with quorum present? reference to soldiers' votes heretofore, and cer- The PRESIDENT pro tem.-The Chair did not tainly I see no reason why it should not be con- declare that there was no quorum present. tinued. A sufficient number seconding the call, the Mr. E. BROOKS-I desire to add in confirmation ayes and noes were ordered. of what my colleague [Mr. Wickham] has stated in The question was then put on the amendment this regard, that it is very notorious to all those of Mr. Spencer, as amended on the suggestion of who canvassed the votes which were taken in the Mr. Alvord, and it was declared carried by the army of the Potomac during the war, pending following vote: the election between Mr. Lincoln and General Ayes-Messrs. A. F. Allen, C. L. Allen, Alvord, McClellan, that if there was any place where Archer, Axtell, Barker, Beadle, Beals, Beckwith, great frauds were committed, it was in taking Bell, Bickford, E. A. Brown, W. C. Brown, Carvotes in the army at that time. penter, Case, Cheritree, Cooke, Corbett, C. C. Mr. ANDREWS- This amendment seems to Dwight, T. W. Dwight, Ely, Endress, Farnum, be absolutely necessary. I don't see how we can Ferry, Folger, Fowler, Fuller, Fullerton, Goodget along without it; because if these voters- rich, Gould, Grant, Graves, Hammond, Hand,, soldiers-are not here but are absent, they cannot Harris, Hitchcock, Houston, Hutchins, Ketcham, appear to be registered; and it seems to be Kinney, Krum, Landon, Lapham, A. Lawrence, absolutely necessary that we should have the M. H. Lawrence, Lee, Ludington, Mattice, McDonamendment of the gentleman from Steuben [Mr. aid, Merritt, Miller, Pond, Prindle, Prosser, RathSpencer], to enable them to vote. bun, Reynolds, Root, Rumsey, Seymour, Sheldoi, Mr. GREELEY - I wish to ask the gentleman Smith, Spencer, Stratton, Tappan, M. I. Town[Mr. Spencer], to accept an amendment which send, Van Campen, Van Cott, Wakeman, Wales, covers a good deal more ground, and will obviate Williams-70. any objections. I propose in place of his words, Noes-Messrs. Barnard, Barto, Bergen, Bowen, this: " and the Legislature shall provide for the E. Brooks, Burrill, Cassidy, Champlain, Chesebro, registering of such electors as shall be unavoid- Clinton, Cochran, Conger, Daly, Develin, Greeley, ably absent from the places of registry in their Gross, Hardenburgh, Kernan, Livingston, Loew, respective districts at the time appointed for regis- Lowrey, Merrill, More, A. J. Parker, Potter, Robtration." That will also cover the case of a sick ertson, L. W. Russell, Schoonmaker, Strong, S. person who cannot leave to personally apply to Townsend, Tucker, Veeder-32. be registered. Mr. GREELEY - I move a reconsideration of Mr. SPENCER -I would be willing to accept the vote by which the amendment of the gentlethe amendment if- man from Steuben [Mr. Spencer] was adopted, Mr. A. J. PARKER-I wish to suggest wheth- and I ask that my amendment be now er it would not be better still, and acco m- considered. plish what is desired, by leaving out the clause, The PRESIDENT pro tern. - The motion to re"no person shall vote at such election ex- consider must lie on the table under the rule. cept he shall have been registered according to Mr. GREELEY - There are two things to be law.". done. The PRESIDENT pro tem.-There can be no The PRESIDENT pro tem. - The gentleman is proposition entertained except the amendment of out of order, as the motion to reconsider cannot the gentleman from Allegany [Mr. Champlain] now be heard. and the amendment to the amendment offered by Mr. GREELEY - I am speaking to my amendthe gentleman from Steuben [Mr. Spencer]. ment. I move to amend the section by inserting Mr. A. J. PARKER-This is a substitute for after the word "law," in line seven, the followthat amendment. ing: "and the Legislature shall provide for the Mr. SPENCER-I wish to have the emend- registering of such electors as shall be unavoidment of the gentleman from Westchester [_Mr. ably absent from. the places of registry in their 591 respective districts, at the time appointed for have the name and place of- residence put up registration." where it may be seen long enough before the day Mr. M. I. TOWNSEND -Will the gentleman of voting to enable the claims of the person who substitute the word "necessary" instead of asserts his right to vote to be scrutinized. The "unavoidable?" gentleman from New York [Mr. Hutchins] told Mr. GREELEY - I think "unavoidable" is us what occurred last year in the city of New stronger. There are two things to be done. One York, notwithstanding personal attendance at is to allow soldiers who are entitled to vote to vote. the polls was actually required by law. A That is very well. But what has just been done is man had registered himself, his minor sons, to allow them to vote without being registered. In down to two years of age, I think, and had that way, we may have a thousand votes cast in a registered his billygoat as voters. Now, although village where every one knows there are not one personal presence is required, anybody could hundred lawful voters. I am willing a soldier simulate a name that was to be put on the list. shall vote provided it is determined that he has a But when the list is scrutinized, and people are right to vote. Let that be thoroughly established, looking to see that a man does not vote unless he and then let his name and his vote be taken. is entitled to vote, the fact would be found out Give me six days, and I can scrutinize a man's that those sons were minors, and that this creature right to vote. But we are here establishing the registered with them, was not a human being but principle of letting men vote without being an animal. That is the case in my own town. I registered at all. We may have votes coming in speak in regard to the subject with considerable by the corn-basketful, they will inundate any dis- confidence, from the fact that the ward in which I trict in the country. I wish gentlemen would live is as difficult to manage as any place out of consider this. My amendment provides for the the city of New York, or in the State of New York, registry of men who are unavoidably absent. and we know where it is we found our strength. We There are men absent in the north, in the south found we could reduce a vote of eleven hundred and in the west, and they may be too late for down to between seven hundred and eight hunregistry. This amendment covers the case of dred, by simply knowing where it was claimed a soldiers and everybody else. If men are known man lived. If we did not know his face we learned to be voters in my district, I want them to be reg- whether such a man lived at the place where he istered, and then I want them to vote. But I do claimed to live. Frauds at elections are not to be protest against the principle of allowing votes to avoided by stringent laws requiring the personal be polled by men who are not registered - whose attendance of the elector at the place of registra. right to vote is not judicially established. I trust tion. It is a very great hardship under such a the Convention will adopt this amendment-it law, if a mechanic* is a hundred miles from provides for the cases spoken of. Now, here is a home he must travel that distance to man we all know to be absent, Mr. A. A. Low, who register his name, to be able to vote on the day is now in China. He may come home in time to of election. So with clerks in the employ of a vote, but not to register. We know where he lives. merchant, one thousand miles from home; they And so it is with thousands of our best men. must spend the whole intermediate time between Here are men absent constructing the Pacific rail- the day of registration and the day of election, at road, and they may not be home in time to regis- their homes, if they wish to vote. It is a great ter. I do hope the Convention will allow the burden. No important'good can grow out of the registration, at least six days previous to election, mere fact of their personal presence at the regisof men whom we know to be voters, and who are tration. Believing so, I voted as I did once this unavoidably absent. morning when I proposed to make this provision Mr. M. I. TOWNSEND-I shall vote for this uniform throughout the State, and I shall vote for amendment (though, perhaps, it is not couched in the pending proposition. precisely the words I would have chosen), because Mr.RATHBUN- If this amendment prevails, it proposes to carry out an idea which seems to the best thing we can do, I apprehend,is to strike me of very great importance as affecting the sub- out all we have done this forenoon in regard to ject we have been discussing to-day. I do not that section. If this provision was to be carbelieve it is at all necessary to require a personal ried out just as read and applied to the persons presence of the electors at the place of registra- necessarily and unavoidably absent there would tion. One of my votes cast to-day- be a seeming propriety, and a great amount of Mr. McDONALD-Will the gentleman allow liberality in it. But under that clause a thousand me to ask the question whether there is anything men could claim they had been unavoidably kept in the proposed article requiring personal pres- away from home and could not possibly get back: sence? to be registered until after the six days had been,,. Mr. M. I. TOWNSEND -That is in the law as trenched upon and the time for scrutiny had', it stands. It is not in the Constitution. It is the passed. law as to the city of New York at the present Mr. GREELEY-I am sure I have not proposed time, and to a moderate degree it affects the city that any man should vote who is not registered, in which I live. I do not believe that for the pur- six days before the time of election. pose of preserving the purity of the ballot-box Mr. RATHTBUN-I understood that to be the the requirement that the electors should attend meaning of the amendment as it was read. personally at the place of registration is of one Mr. GREELEY-It provides for a registry at a-. farthing's importance. I think it simply imposes proper time. a burden on tho elector. The way to secure the Mr. RATHBUN-The gentleman is talking purity of elections and of the ballot-box, is to about honest men being absent at the period of 592 registering. But he does not see that all the of Mr. Greeley, and it was declared carried by rogues in the country, everywhere, could take ad- the following vote: vantage of that very thing; they could pretend Ayes- Messrs. Archer, Barnard, Barto, Bergen, that they had been from home; they could surround Bickford, E. Brooks, E. A. Brown, W. C. Brown, the place of registry on the day before the elec- Burrill, Cassidy, Champlain, Chesebro, Church, tion, and hundreds upon hundreds would be Clinton, Cochran, Conger, Corning, Daly, Develin, registered, under a provision made to accommodate C. C. Dwight, Ferry, Flagler, Fullerton, Greeley, merchants and clerks traveling about the country. Gross, Hale, Hand, Hardenburgh, Kernan, LanI hope gentlemen are not going to eviscerate the don, M. H. Lawrence, Livingston, Loew, Lowrey, provisions of the section thus far secured. If Magee, Mattice, Merritt, Monell, More, Nelson, they do they had better abandon the whole thing. Opdyke, Paige, A. J. Parker, Potter, Prosser, In regard to personal attendance, it has been Robertson, L. W. Russell, Schell, Schoonmaker, said to be a great hardship in New York. Schumaker, Seymour, Strong, Tappen, M. I. A year ago last fall I made a mistake in getting to Townsend, S. Townsend, Van Campen, Veeder, the polls. I found them closed a little before sun- Verplanck, Wakeman, Wales, Weed, Wickhamdown, as I thought, but I was a little too late, and 62. before I could vote last fall I had to personally Noes - Messrs. A. F. Allen, C. L. Allen, Alattend upon the registrars and ask them to put vord, Axtell, Baker, Barker, Beadle, Beals, Beckmy name on the list of voters. They consented with, Bell, Bowen, Carpenter, Case, Cheritree, to do so, and I voted afterward. That is the way Cooke, T. W. Dwight, Eddy, Endress, Farnum, of it in the little city where I reside, and that is Folger, Fowler. Fuller, Goodrich, Gould, Grant, the hardship that the gentleman from Rensselaer Graves, Hammond, Harris, Hitchcock, Houston, [Mr. M. I. Townsend] talks about, and which the Hutchins, Ketchum, Kinney, Krum, Lapham, people of New York and Brooklyn have to en- A. Lawrence, Lee, Ludington, McDonald, Merrill, counter. I cannot say that I have suffered very Miller, Pond, Prindle, Rathbun, Reynolds, Root, much in traveling thirty or forty rods out of the Rumsey, Sheldon, Sherman, Spencer, Van Cott, way to have a board of registry put my name Williams-52. down. I cannot exactly see how anybody has. Mr. DALY- It seems to me we have occuIn this registry law we must have general rules pied the principal part of the day in the attempt for the government of the great body of the peo: to pass a registry law. That, in my judgment, is pie. Now there will be accidents. Men will be a matter of detail, belonging properly to the kept away from home but not on one side only. Legislature. I therefore oiler the following Meln will he sick, but not sick in one party alone. amendment: There will be sick men on both sides, and The SECRETARY proceeded to read the each side will lose votes. If a man resides amendment as follows: in the State of New York, but is outside of SEC. 4. There shall be, throughout the State, a the State, and moving toward his home, registration of all persons entitled to vote. Laws intending to arrive before the election, the cars for that purpose shall be enacted by the Legislatun off the track and he is too late, it is a great ture, which shall be uniform in their requirements hardship that lie should lose his vote for such a throughout the State. cause. But is it necessary that we shouldprovide The PRESIDENT pro tern. - In the opinion of against these accidents which occur, to prevent a the Chair the amendment of the gentleman [Mr. man's presence at home to register in time, to Daley] is not in order. allow his voting at an election? We must adopt Mr. ALVORD -I move to reconsider the vote general rules. Both sides will suffer equally from just had, by which the amendment offered by the untoward accidents. If we attempt to provide gentleman from Westchester [Mr. Greeley] was for all these details, we wil! fritter away the whole passed. thing, and will finally be as bad off as though we The PRESIDENT pro tern. - The motion lies had no registry law. on the table under the rule. Mr. HAND- I do not know that I understand Mr. SEYMOUR -I offer the following amendthe proposed amendment of the gentleman from ment, to come in at the end of the section: Westchester [Mr. Greeley] or whether I am mis- " Personal attendance of an elector upon registaken. Does the amendment provide that those tration shall not be required." persous who are unavoidably absent from home The object of the Convention seems to me to be shall be registered six days before the election by to provide for the enactment of a registration law, their friends. I so understand it. through the Legislature, which shall preserve the Mr. GREELEY - That is substantially the pro- purity of the elections. During all the discussion vision. upon the various amendments that have been preMr. RATHBUN - That does not improve it a sented I have not been able to conceive why it is particle; it makes it rather worse. necessary that an elector shall be required personMr. DUGANNE-I move to amend by striking ally to appear upon registration day that his name out the word "unavoidable." may be enrolled. There seems to have been a The PRESIDENT pro tem.-The amendment is difficulty in reconciling the feelings of the country out of order, there being two amendments with those of tle cities. Letus consider it in that pending. aspect. Is it necessary in the country that there Mr. CHESEBRO - I call for the ayes and noes. should be a personal attendance? Those who are A sufficient number seconding the call, the familiar with the mode in which registration has yeas and nays were ordered. been had in the country know very well tbat Tho question was then put on the amendient it is the fact in almost all the country districts 593 that the electors are known, and if new names be added to the list, a period of six days suffices to notify the whole town or district in which these people are to vote, that such and such persons have been entered on the list and propose to vote at the election. The list is scanned and it is ascertained then whether these persons are really electors or not, and the public are ready on the day of the election to determine it, and interpose a challenge if necessary. The trouble seems to be in our' cities. You take the city of New York. It is said that the people there do not know the place of residence of the persons whose names are given in the registry. Pray how do they determine upon the day of election who is to be challenged and who is not to be challenged? It is by subsequent inquiry that the duty to challenge is to be ascertained. It is during the six days that the name of the person registered stands upon the list, notifying the whole public in the district where he is to vote, that he intends to vote. That is the way that his right to vote is ascertained. Now, does it depend at all upon accident whether he has been presented for the purpose of having his name registered? Not in the least. Nor does his coming there and presenting his name in any considerable degree identify him. When the day of election shall come, the question whether he is really an elector or not is decided upon information obtained within the six days that his name remained for the inspection of the public. The gentleman from Westchester [Mr. Greeley] has truly said that is the principal point of the efficacy in this law. Then why should we require the laboring nmen in our cities to be at the inconvenience of appearing personally and having their names registered? I understand it has been the practice in some cities, -in the city of New York, for instance, and it is a very great inconvenience. Now, I wish to have inserted in the provisions on this subject a provision like that one which Ihave embodied in this amendment, that no law should impose this burden on a citizen. It is not necessary for the purpose of preserving the purity of election. The right of a voter is ascertained otherwise, as I have shown, and the test comes upon the investigation made in the six days preceding the election, and that test is applied on the day of the election. Mr. SCHUMAKER-I am very sorry to disagree with the gentleman from Rensselaer [Mr. Seymour]; but I really think that the liberal amendment offered by the gentleman from Westchester [Mr. Greeley] covers all the objections he has recited. I know from my own experience that if a man can, the best way for him is to register his own vote. Then there is no mistake about the house he lives in or the number of the street or locality in which he is a resident. Heretofore, there has been a great deal of unnecessary registering; the registry list has been incumbered to a great degree. As I said at the commencement of my remarks, I think the liberal amendment of the gentleman from Westchester covers all the cases of necessary absence, also absence on account of sickness, or of being employed as laboring men in different portions of the country or State from that where the registry is going on, and I hope it will be adopted. 75 Mr. ROBERTSON-I have always understood the registry law to be a mere claim of the title to vote. On the first entering of the names on the record of the parties who register, I do not understand there is any right of investigation on the part of those who have the registry in charge. If they do not know a man they can inquire after the list is made out, as to his home, his personnel. and other matters. Then is the time to investigate whether or not the parties claiming a right to vote shall.be allowed to vote. You thus take away the necessity, on the day of election, when a party presents himself for the first time to vote, of inquiring into such matters at that time. This registry is merely for the purpose of presenting his claim to the right to vote. There is nothing determinate by the registry of a man's claims to the right to vote, he not being entitled to a vote otherwise. It is therefore nothing more than a registry of this kind, to be had before the question is tried whether or not he has the right to vote. Therefore I can not see the necessity of a party appearing in person. Of the myriads who present themselves but very few are known to the authorities who have charge of the registry. Hence, it would be perfectly absurd for them to exclude any one on the ground they do not recollect his face, or include him on the ground they do recollect his face. When he presents his name and his habitation, persons who are interested can investigate whether he has the right to vote at the election. I can see no reason why he should present himself before a tribunal who have no right to exclude him or include him in the electoral list. Mr. VAN CAMPEN-As I understand this section, there is no provision in it that requires the personal attendance of a man in order that he may be registered. As it stands it provides he shall be registered and at least six days before the election, and shall not he allowed to vote without such registration. But there is no provision requiring personal attendance for registering. It is for the reason that I do not wish to have here prescribed what rules as to details shall obtain that I shall vote against the amendment offered by the gentleman from Rensselaer [Mr. Seymour]. It provides for just exactly what every man ought to desire who wants an honest election. It provides for exceptional cases of those who are compelled to be away at the time of registration, and that the registration shall take place six days before the election. It seems to me the case must be all covered as it stands now. I shall therefore vote against any further tinkering of this article. The question was put on the amendment of Mr. Seymour and it was declared lost. Mr. POND -I move to amend tne section by substituting therefor the following: SEr. 4. Laws shall be made for ascertaining by proper proofs the citizens who shall be entitled to the right of suffrage hereby established. And the Legislature shall privide that a register of all citizens of the State who shall be entitled to the right of suffrage in each election district, on the ensuing day of election, shall be made or completed before said election and at least six days before any election, in all the cities and incorporated villages of the State, and in all the other 594 portions of the State,, at such times and manner as shall be provided by law. Mr. ALVORD - It seems to me that this will clear the whole of this matter of any cloud that may be around it, by reason of the divers and sundry propositions suggested from time to time in this Convention to-day. It strikes me that almost the entire of the argument which has been heard here, could with greater propriety have been given before a legislative body, rather than before a body like this Convention, having for its object the making of the organic law of the State. I would be entirely satisfied to stop even short of what the gentleman has stated in this regard, and leave it where it was left originally this morning, leaving out the last portion, " that such laws ahall be uniform in their requirements throughout the State." It seems to me to be satisfactorily demonstrated, and that it ought to be agreed to on the part of all men in this Convention, that there should be uniformity of registration; in other words, that there should be registration of voters throughout the length and breadth of the State, with an equality of the workings of that registration, so far as regards its applicability to localities, and differing as regards cities and the country. Now, we fix the fact beyond controversy by the amendment offered by the gentleman from Saratogo [Mr. Pond], that there should be a registration of the voters of this State completed at least six days before the election in all incorporated cities throughout the State, but, so far as regards the country, leaving that to the Legislature. Now, it strikes me that this is what should obtain. We will get then what we desire, a registration of voters. If we get a registration of voters, we should leave the manner in which that registration shall be completed, so far as regards the country, to the Legislature. So far as regards the aggregation of individuals in cities and incorporated villages, time enough should be given for examining the record that is made before election. In the country there is no particular desire for this, because, as has been said again and again, there is abundant means of knowing who are the electors when they come to the polls. In the absence of general topics of conversation and inquiry, they talk about their neighbors. They know where they live; they know how many hired men their neighbors have and how many sons they have. In cities we know not our next door neighbors. They are constantly passing before us like the waves of the sea -here this moment, away the next. It is for that reason we desire a length of time before the election sufficient to satisfy us that parties professing to reside in our immediate midst have the right, the same as ourselves, to go to the polls and vote. In this view of the case, it strikes me the proposition removes all the difficulties around the various amendments proposed here to-day. In my opinion, the amendment offered by the gentleman from Westchester [Mr. Greeley], had better been offered earlier in the morning. If it had obtained the sanction of the majority of this Convention, it would have saved us all the trouble we have been laboring under from early morning until now. It is merely taking the back track-going away back to the saine position from which we started, and attempting to eliminate from this article this idea of uniform registration. It is a mere rehash of more than half a dozen amendments we have been voting down consistently and continuously during our labors this day. I trust, therefore, excluding everything else, the simple, plain proposition of the gentleman from Saratoga [Mr. Pond] will obtain the approbation of this Convention. Mr. DALY - I agree entirely with the gentleman from Onondaga [Mr. Alvord]. When the amendment offered was ruled out by the Chair, I supposed it was on the ground of a previous proposition which had been passed upon. I propose to express more briefly than the gentleman from Saratoga [Mr. Pond] what I suppose is the proper course on this subject, that is, to leave the whole subject to the Legislature after providing expressly for the general registration of the voters of this State, substituting for section 4 words to this effect: "There shall be a registration of all persons in this State who are entitled to vote, and laws for that purpose shall be passed by the Legislature," leaving it entirely for-the'Legislature to fix the details of those laws. I think we are passing out of the region of fundamental law and occupying time by passing what is known as legislative law in the various amendments which have been proposed during the course of the day. If the action of the Convention upon the amendment offered by the gentleman from Saratoga [Mr. Pond] should be unfavorable to it, I then propose to offer this amendment, which will briefly express that after providing for a general registration all the details on this subject shall be left to the Legislature. Mr. GREELEY - What will be the condition of the voters of this State, if the amendment is adopted? They all know they have to be registered; the Constitution will tell them that. But I want the Constitution to read plainly that they must be registered six days before the election, otherwise a man may next year present himself before a board of registry: "I want to be registered." It is Saturday before election. "You cannot be registered." "Why, it is only three days before election. I registered on Saturday last year." " Yes; but the law has been changed since then." Thus you will have voters trapped all over the State. All voters do not and cannot know every law that is passed by our Legislature from year to year; but they may be fairly required to know what is plainly set forth in the Constitution. I pray that you will not entangle the voters in this net. I ask that there may be not only one law for the country and the city, but that the voters of our State be protected against this peril of losing their votes by annual changes of law. This year, the interval between registering and voting will be extended; next year, it will be shortened. Consequently, you may have fifty thousand voters who will need to know what they have to do in order to establish their right to vote. The Constitution should be plain on this point. We ought to leave as little as possible subject to change by annual legislation. I trust there will be no change of the article in this respect. Let usnot establish the principle that the Legisla 595 ture may change' from day to day the conditions upon which a voter can exercise the right of suffrage. Let us stand fast by the good we have done. Mr. TAPPEN - I believe from the votes which were cast this morning, that it was intended to restrict registration to the general elections. Therefore I propose to amend by inserting after the amendment of the gentleman from Saratoga [Mr. Pond], the word "general." The PRESIDENT- It is not in order. Mr. DEVELIN- I rise to ask whether this amendment of the gentleman from Saratoga [Mr. Pond] proposes there shall be a registration for all elections. The PRESIDENT pro tern. - As far as the Chair is informed, it is not restricted to any election. Mr. DEVELIN- Is it not in conflict with the vote we took this morning, confining it to general elections? The PRESIDENT pro ten. - The Chair is of opinion that it is. Mr. DEVELIN- Then I submit that it is out of order. The PRESIDENT pro ter. - The opinion of the Chair is that it is in order, as it includes much more than that. Mr. TAPPEN -Will it not be in order for me to move to amend that amendment? The PRESIDENT pro tem.-The Chair is of opinion that it will not. Mr. TAPPEN-Will the gentleman accept my amendment? Mr. POND-No, sir; distinctly not. Mr. BURRILL-I would like to ask the mover of this amendment a question, that is whether or not he designs by it to provide a time when the registration shall be completed in cities and villages befbre election, and not to provide any time when it shall be completed in other portions of the State? Mr. POND-That is the amendment I have sent up. In the cities and incorporated villages the time shall be six days; in other portions the manner and time shall be fixed by law. Mr. BARKER- Does the gentleman intend by that that no elector shall vote unless his name is registered? Mr. POND - Yes, sir. Mr. BARKER —He has not said it very plainly. Mr. POND - Not very. [Laughter.] The PRESIDENT pro tern. announced the pending question to be on the amendment of Mr. Pond. Mr. DEVELIN- I called for a division of the question. SEVERAL DELEGATES - No I no! Mr. DEVELIN - There are so many " no-noes" around here that I will withdraw my call [Laughter]. The SECRETARY proceeded to call the ayes and noes on the amendment of Mr. Pond, and it was declared lost by the following vote: Ayes-Messrs. A. F. Allen, Alvord, Archer, Baker, Beadle, Eddy, Endress, Farnum, Fowler, Fuller, Gould, Hand, Hitchcock, Houston, Krum, Landon, Lee, Ludington, McDonald, Merritt, Opdyke, Pond- 22. Noes-Messrs. Andrews, Axtell, Barker, Barnard, Barto, Beals, Beckwith, Bell, Bergen, Bickford, Bowen, E. Brooks, E. A. Brown, W. C. Brown, Burrill, Carpenter, Case, Cassidy, Champlain, Cheritree, Chesebro, Clinton, Cochran, Conger, Cooke, Corbett, Corning, Daly, DeveliD, C. C. Dwight, T. W. Dwight, Flagier, Folger, Fullerton, Goodrich, Grant, Graves, Greeley, Gross, Hadley, Hale, Hammorid, Harris, Hitcbman, Kernan, Ketcham, Kinney, Lapham, Law, A. Lawrence, M. H.'Lawrence, LiViDgStOll, Loew, Lowrey, Magee, Mattice, Merrill, Miller, Monell, More, Morris, Nelson, Paige, A. J. Parker, Potter, Prindle, Prosser, Rathbun, Reynolds. Robertson, Rolfe, Root, Rumsey, L. W. Russell, Schell, Schoonmaker, Schuniaker, Seymour, Sheldon, Smith, Spencer, Strong, Tappen, M. I. Townsend, S. Townsend, Van Campen, Van Cott, Veeder, Verplanck, Wakeman, Wales, Weed, Wickham, Williams-94. Mr. DALY - With the view of bringing this matter to a termination if possible, and to get through with this section I offer the amendment I suggested: The SECRETARY proceeded to read the amendment as follows: Strike out all after the word 11 establish" and insert the following: 11 The Legislature shall provide for a registry of all citizens entit 'led to the right of suffrage in each election district, to be completed at least six days before any general or municipal election. No person shall vote at any unless registered as herein prosuch election, ZD vided." Air. VEEDER -I should think, Mr. President, from the language of the amendment offered by the gentleman from New York [Mr. Daly], that it simply requires the passage of an act for registration by the Legislature six days before the election, and that the time does not refer to the registration of voters, although the gentleman undoubtedly intended that it should. Mr. DALY - I move to, make it six days, which will obviate the difficulty. Air. ROBERTSON -It 'requires at least six days. Air. A. J. PARKER -The same difficulty occurs in reference to this amendment that there is in the original section in this respect. It provides that no person shall vote unless registered as herein required. It makes his right to vote to depend upon the action of the Legislature. True, it requires that the Legislature shall provide registry laws, and so did the original section; but suppose the Legislature fails to do so; is the citizen to be deprived of his right to vote in consequence of that? I suggest this as an objection to the amendment and to the section itself, that it may be provided for, either by striking out the section or providing that such shall be its effect after the Legislature shall have passed la,,ws regulating the registry. The section provides that the Legislature shall provide a law in regard to the registry. If it fails to do soThe PRESIDENT pro tem. - Then there is no law. Mr. A. J. PARKER -And then they are not registered according to law and have no right to vote. If they have no law and are not registered according to it, of course they are precluded from voting. Barto, Beals, Beckwith, Bell, Bergen, Bickford, Bowen, E. Brooks, E. A. Brown, W. C. Brown, Burrill, Carpenter, Case, Cassidy, Champlain, Cheritree, Chesebro, Clinton, Cochran, Conger, Cooke, Corbett, Corning, Daly, Develin, C. C. Dwight, T. W. Dwight, Flagler, Folger, Fullerton, Goodrich, Grant, Graves, Greeley, Gross, Hadley, Hale, Hammond, Harris, Hitchman, Kernan, Ketcham, Kinney, Lapham, Law, A. Lawrence, M. H. Lawrence, Livingston, Loew, Lowrey, Magee, Mattice, Merrill, Miller, Monell, More, Morris, Nelson, Paige, A. J. Parker, Potter, Prindle, Presser, Rathbun, Reynolds, Robertson, Rolfe, Root, Rumsey, L. W. Russell, Schell, Schoonmaker, Schumaker, Seymour, Sheldon, Smith, Spencer, Strong, Tappen, M. I. Townsend, S. Townsend, Van Campen, Van Cott, Veeder, Verplanck, Wakeman, Wales, Weed, Wickham, Williams-94. Mr. DALY - With the view of bringing this matter to a termination if possible, and to get through with this section I offer the amendment I suggested: The SECRETARY proceeded to read the amendment as follows: Strike out all after the word "establish" and insert the following: " The Legislature shall provide for a registry of all citizens entitled to the right of suffrage in each election district, to be completed at least six days before any general or municipal election. No person shall vote at any such election, unless registered as herein provided." Mr. VEEDER —I should think, Mr. President, from the language of the amendment offered by the gentleman from New York [Mr. Daly], that it simply requires the passage of an act for registration by the Legislature six days before the election, and that the time does not refer to the registration of voters, although the gentleman undoubtedly intended that it should. Mr. DALY- I move to make it six days, which will obviate the difficulty. Mr. ROBERTSON-It requires at least six days. Mr. A. J. PARKER -The same difficulty occurs in reference to this amendment that there is in the original section in this respect. It provides that no person shall vote unless registered as herein required. It makes his right to vote to depend upon the action of the Legislature. True, it requires that the Legislature shall provide registry laws, and so did the original section; but suppose the Legislature fails to do so; is the citizen to be deprived of his right to vote in consequence of that? I suggest this as an objection to the amendment and to the section itself, that it may be provided for, either by striking out the section or providing that such shall be its effect after the Legislature shall have passed laws regulating the registry. The section provides that the Legislature shall provide a law in regard to the registry. If it fails to do soThe PRESIDENT pro tem. - Then there is no law. Mr. A. J. PARKER -And then they are not registered according to law and have no right to vote. If they have no law and are not registered according to it, of course they are precluded from voting. 596 Mr. RATHBUN -I wish to inquire in regard to that amendment. As I understand it, it comes in at the end of the third line. I wish to inquire what the effect would be, if this amendment was adopted, upon the previous amendments which have been adopted? The PRESIDENT pro tem.-The Chair understands that it would take the place of all previous amendments. Mr. RATHBUN-Then I am in favor it. The question was then put on the amendment of Mr. Daly, and it was declared carried. The ayes and noes were called for on the amendment, and a sufficient number seconding the call, they were ordered. Mr. VEEDER-I rise to a point of order. My point of order is that this is substantially, indeed, almost word for word, reinstating the printed section that has been before the Convention, and thus, in an indirect manner, reconsidering on the spot the vote that was taken embodying in that section the provision that the Legislature shall provide for the registration of electors who were unavoidably absent. The PRESIDENT pro ter.-The Chair is of the opinion that the amendment of the gentleman [Mr. Daly] is in order as it proposes to substitute the word "municipal," which has not heretofore been used. Mr. DALY-I am willing to substitute any matter which has been heretofore adopted by the Convention as a part of the amendment if it is necessary. Mr. KETCHAM-I desire to suggest that the amendment proposed by the gentleman [Mr. Daly] be made a substitute for the whole section. There seems to be no necessity for the first clause of the section with that amendment. The PRESIDENT pro ten.-The Chair is of the opinion that the amendment offered by the gentleman from Wayne [Mr. Ketcham] is not in order, there being two amendments pending. Mr. T. W. DWIGHT-I would like to read a substitute which perhaps the mover will accept. It is this: " Laws shall be made for ascertaining by proper proofs, which shall be made and completed, at least six days before any general election of the citizens who shall be entitled to the right of suffrage hereby established, and after such registrationMr. ALVORD -That leaves out the word "municipal." Mr. T. W. DWIGHT - I will put that in if it is desired. Mr. DALY - I do not accept the substitute. Mr. DEVELIN -I desire the mover of the amendment to inform me what will be the effect if that amendment is adoptedThe PRESIDENT pro tem. - The discussion is not in order. The gentleman [Mr. Develin] can speak to the amendment of the gentleman from New York [Mr. Daly]. Mr. DEVELIN - It was my desire to speak in regard to that. I desire to ask the mover of the amendment what would be the effect of that amendment, if adopted, if the Legislature did not pass any law on the subject? Would anybody vote? Mr. ROBERTSON-I would suggest to the,mover of the substitute to insert the words "when and" before "as" so that it will read "when and as required by law." That I think will meet the suggestion of the gentleman from Albany [Mr. A. J. Parker], and the gentleman from New York [Mr. Develin]. The PRESIDENT pro tern. - The Chair musi rule that this desultory conversation is out of order. Mr. GREELEY -I still desire to know whether the adopting of this amendment will strike out the one we have just adopted, which provides for the registering of voters who are unavoidably absent. The PRESIDENT pro tem. - The Chair is of the opinion that if this is adopted, it will strike out all after the word " established " in the third line. Mr. GREELEY -Then I must vote against it. Mr. SCHUMAKER-Mr. PresidentMr. RATHBUN —I rise to a point of order. The ayes and noes have been called, and a member had answered to his name. The PRESIDENT pro tern. — he Chair is of the opinion that the gentleman from Kings [Mr. Schumaker] is in order, if he desires to speak on the amendment offered by the gentleman from New York [Mr. Daly]. Mr. SCHUMAKER - I do. In the present Constitution we have a provision in reference to the registering of voters. The Legislature of this State in the face of this provision has provided that no one can register the name of the voter except the voter himself. I was very glad to hear the proposition come from the gentleman from Westchester [Mr. Greeley], that this in some way should be remedied. If the Legislature, in the face of a plain provision to register, says that a voter must register himself, and if he does not, he cannot vote on election day, I think the Convention should put in the Constitution a plain provision preventing them from passing any law disfranchising citizens of this State who are necessarily absent or sick. Mr. LAPHAM —Will the gentleman from Kings [Mr. Schumaker] inform me in what part of the Constitution he will find a provision for registration. Mr. SCHUMAKER -I think there is in the present Constitution such a provision. Will the gentleman from Westchester [Mr. Greeley] come to my assistance and state where it is? What I refer to is section 4 of article 2, which reads thus: " Laws shall be made for ascertaining by proper proofs the citizens who shall be entitled to the right of suffrage hereby established." That is just the same. They have passed the present registration law which we have in existence, and founded its constitutionality upon that very provision. The courts have decided, I think, that the first law of the Legislature in 1858 was constitutional under that provision. Upon that provision of the Constitution they passed the present law for ascertaining the persons who are entitled to vote; and if they give us such bad laws under that provision, there ought to be, I say, some provision in the Constitution preventing Ithem from passing any laws which shall 597 prevent a voter unable to attend and be registered, nolds, Root, Rumsey, L. W. Russell, Sheldon, by reason of sickness or absence, from having his Sherman, Smith, Spencer, Stratton, Van Cott, name registered by others. I think that this Wakeman, Williams-66. Convention should see to it that the provisions of Noes-Messrs. Barnard, Barto, Bell, Bergen, the Constitution are plain upon that point. That Bowen, E. Brooks, E. A. Brown, Burrill, Cassidy, is the only objection I have to the amendment of Champlain, Chesebro, Cochran, Conger, Cooke, the gentleman from New York [Mr. Daly]. I Corning, Develin, Greeley, Hale, Hardenburgh, think that the provision moved by the gentleman Hitchman, Kernan, Krum, Law, Livingston, from Westchester [Mr. Greeley] covers the Loew, Lowrey, Magee, Mattice, Monell, More, ground. Morris, Nelson, Opdyke, Paige, A. J. Parker, Mr. E. A. BROWN - It seems to be assumed Potter, Prindle, Robertson, Rolfe, Schell, Schoonthat the registry law as it now stands requires in maker, Schumaker, Seymour, Strong, Tappen, M. the cities of Now York and Brooklyn that every I. Townsend, S. Townsend, Tucker, Van Campen, voter should appear personally before the board Veeder, Verplanck, Wales, Weed, Wickham-53. of registry. There certainly is no such thing in Mr. VEEDER-I move to reconsider the vote the law and there never has been such a require- by which the amendment of the gentleman from ment in the law as I have read it. It is only on New York [Mr. Daly] has just been adopted. the final completion of the registry, on the last The motion was laid on the table. day when they meet; that names are prohibited Mr. T. W. DWIGHT-I desire to move the from being added without the personal appear- amendment which I offer. ance of the voter. " Laws shall be made for ascertaining by proper Mr. VEEDER - I call the attention of the proofs and by registration, which shall be made gentleman [Mr. E. A. Brown] to the seventh and completed at least six days before any gensection of the statute in reference to the cities eral election, the citizens who shall be entitled to of New York' and Brooklyn, which reads as the right of suffrage hereby established, and after follows: such registration laws have been enacted, no per"In the cities of New York and Brooklyn the son shall vote at such election who shall not have name of no person shall be placed upon the said been registered according to law." register unless he shall appear in person before It will be seen that the object of this amendthe said inspectors and prove to their satisfaction ment is to leave the regulation of this subject to his right to vote at the next election in the elec- the Legislature, with the exception of securing tion district in which he claims the right to so vote." the six days, provided, the right to vote shall not be Mr. E. A. BROWN - It provides that they affected until the registration law shall have been shall make up the registry list from last year's enacted. poll list. That provision which the gentleman [Mr. The question was then put on the amendment Veeder] cites is simply applicable to the last day, of Mr. T. W. Dwight, and it was declared lost. when they finally complete the registry. In Mr. HALE offered the following amendment: making up the registry they take the list of last "All registry laws shall be uniform throughout year, and then, on the last session of the board, the State, except the cities and incorporated this rule applies, that no person can be added villages thereof; and they shall also be uniform except they personally apply. in all the cities and incorporated villages of the Mr. WEEDER -I desire further to correct the State." gentleman. lie is mistaken in his statement in I wish to state very briefly the motives with whi h reference to the statute. I have read the statute I offer this amendment. The report of the Conword for word, as it is enacted. mittee on the Right of Suffrage, and also the reThe PRESIDENT pro tern.-The gentleman port of the Committee of the Whole have adopted from Kings [Mr. Veeder] is out of order, he hav- this language: "But such laws shall be uniform ing already spoken. in their requirements throughout the State." A Mr. E. A. BROWN - I have called attention to majority of the Convention voted in favor striking the law as I understand it, and I have certainly out that portion of the report. I voted with the labored very hard three or four times to under- majority. But the only reason I have heard for stand it, in localities where this provision was sup- objecting to that provision is that there must be posed to apply, and it will take a man a week to injustice in requiring the same strictness in look it through, but I simply desire to call the sparsely populated portions of the State that we attention of the Convention to the subject. do in cities and villages. There are many pro-, The roll was called on the amendment of Mr. visions which would be extremely inconvenient Daly, and it was declared adopted by the follow- for persons who reside in my part of the State ing vote: for instance, which might be complied with Ayes-Messrs. A. F. Allen, Alvord, Andrews, without inconvenience by residents of Archer, Axtell, Baker, Barker, Beadle, Beals, cities and villages. I have heard no other Beckwith, Bickford, W. C. Brown, Carpenter, reason except that, and that is a reason which Case, Cheritree, Clinton, Corbett, Daly, C. C. applies to all cities and incorporated villages, Dwight, T. W. Dwight, Eddy, Endress, Farnum, and an objection which applies equally to all other Flagler, Folger, Fowler, Fuller, Fullerton, Gould, parts of the State. I submit, therefore, that Grant, Graves, Gross, Hadley, Hammond, Hand, this amendment will meet the only objection which Harris, Hitchcock, Huntington, Hutchins, Ketch- has been raised against this provision in the Cornam, Kinney, Landon, Lapham, A. Lawrence, M. mittee of the Whole, and secure positively, uniH. Lawrence, Lee, Ludington, McDonald, Merrill, formity of registration which may be had upon Merritt, Miller, Pond, Prosser, Rathbun, Rey- this plan. 598 Mr. ALVORD-I would suggest to the gentleman from Essex, [Mr. Hale] that in very many incorporated villages, of this State, the election districts run outside of the villages into the country, and take in a large portion of the country. Indeed, I hardly know an exception in the limits of the State. It, therefore, strikes me that if the gentleman desires uniformity, he should accept my suggestion, so that it might read " except those in which the election district is part village and part country," or leave "villages" out entirely, which would be still better. Mr. HALE-I have no objection to accept that. Mr. HARDENBURGH -I would ask the gentleman from Onondaga [Mr. Alvord] if the amendment just adopted did not include municipal corporations also. Mr. ALVORD - If the gentleman will permit me a moment: certainly it did, but it has reference to municipal elections and general elections, where the limits of a district extend beyond the village. The question was put upon Mr. Hale's amendment, and it was delared lost. Mr. LAPHAM-I move to amend the amendment of Mr. Daly by inserting after the word "general" the word "special," so that it will read "general, special and municipal." The amendment as adopted fails to provide for the cases of special elections which may be ordered in many instances, and to which the principle of registration applies equally as well as to general elections; and I think the amendment I have suggested should be adopted. Mr. BARKER -Will the gentleman allow me to ask him a question? If the word general does not apply to elections in which all may participate, and not to any local or municipal election, special elections would apply in that instance, so there would be a new registration. The question was then put on the amendment of Mr. Lapham, and it was declared carried, on a division, by a vote of 54 to 40. Mr. VERPLANCK offered the following amendment: " When a person entitled to the right of suffrage shall be registered in any election district, his name shall be kept on the register of said district so long as he shall remain a resident thereof." Mr. VERPLANCK-Under the amendment which has been adopted requiring registration for municipal and special as well as general elections the electors of the city of New York will be en'gaged a considerable portion of the year in the business of registry. Electors who are registered as voters at general elections, will have to be registwed for municipal and special elections. I deem it therefore proper that this amendment should prevail. An elector who has been registered in his district, should not be obliged to go through the trouble of being registered again so long as he remains a resident of the same district, If an elector registers his name to-day there is no reason why he should be required next Spring or any other time so long as he remains a resident of the district to be again registered. Registry laws interfere with the right, which gentlemen have been pleased to term a natural and an inalienable right, and while electors it seems must submit to a registry law I insist that it shall, be a plain, practical and fair law, and designed to answer the purpose for which it is enacted. The gentleman from Westchester [Mr. Greeley] insists that a registry should be had of all persons who claim they have a right to vote, so as to ascertain whether those persons are entitled to vote in the district in which they are registered. But when you undertake to do anything more than this, you commit violence upon the right of suffrage. Mr. President, I am opposed to leaving to the Legislature the establishment of the registry law. I had in my mind when I prepared this amendment, the action of a former Legislature, but I did not care to have the attention of the Convention particular. ly called to it; but you know, Mr. President, and I know, that some of the Legislatures have attempted, under the guise of a registry law, to interfere with the right of suffrage. A former Legislature provided that no man born out of the country should be registered unless he -produced his naturalization papers. The object and design of it was to prevent registration, and what was the effect? Naturalized citizens who had. lost or mislaid their papers, could not get their names registered. There were boards of registrars who insisted that every man who was born abroad and claimed a right to vote, should produce his naturalization papers. A person under eighteen years of age when his father was naturalized, is by law a voter, when he comes of age and needs no such papers, yet thousands of such persons were refused registration because they could not produce naturalization papers. I know the fact personally that in the city of Buffalo many such persons actuIally took out papers in order to avoid this objection. Such requirements are wrong, and an outrage uponr this right, and this Convention should, as far as possible and practicable, settle the law of registration, and make it as easy as possible for the elector. In the first place provide that six days before election the elector shall be registered, and when thus registered, his name shall remain upon the register so long as he remains a resident of the district. I see no good reason why men in our manufacturing establishments, or in other industrial pursuits, should be required from year to year to lose their time in attending a board of registry when they are well known to everybody in the district as qualified voters. Mr. RATHBUN-I hQpe, sir, we will get through legislating pretty soon, and take up the matters we are sent here to attend to - that is, to form a Constitution. The last amendment contains not only enough, but iln my judgment more than should have been put in. Now we lave an additional proposition from the gentleman frolm Erie [Mr. Verplanck], to legislate and to provilde by law that if a man is upon the registry ole year, he is to stand there as long as voting is maintained in the State, I presume. Mr. VERPLANCK -That is the law now. Mr. RATHBUN - I beg your pardon. Whether a man votes or not, according to the resolution of my friend from Erie [Mr. Yerplanck], whether he 599 is properly registered or not. whether it is a cheat or fraud to put his name on the registry, it is to stand there until somebody can be found to occupy his place and vote for him. It is not to be taken off, but his name will stand there and he will be entitled to vote. The whole thing is perfectly absurd, in my judgment, for a Convention forming a fundamental law of the State to go on inserting provision after provision with regard to the rights and privileges of an elector, and undertake to define all his rights, and prescribe by law for the whole thing in the Constitution itself. Gentlemen are so much afraid of the Legislature that they cannot even be trusted to pass laws to regulate the rights of suffrage, because they may possibly pass laws which are a hardship upon somebody. Hardships upon somebody bear upon both sides, which gentlemen seem to forget, they talk as if the person talking represented only the person wronged. The provisions operate not upon one side but upon all parties, and does the gentleman from Erie believe that anybody here designs to do injustice to the people who are to pass upon this question, and that we are about to create a Constitution whichmust operate prejudicial to one side and beneficial to another. The thing is absurd. Parties, to be sure, are divided nowand divided in a manner which gives, as insinuated by the argument, a larger proportion of the foreign vote to one side than the other. But how long is that to remain. Are we talking about a thing which is to remain stationary and perpetual, or one which is likely to change. I believe I can recollect when there was a different state of things, and I apprehend that gentlemen will live long enough to see a change, and long before the Constitution we are trying to agree upon will terminate. There will be change after change,and that vote will be first upon one side and then upon the other. The same Constitution is to regulate the rights and privileges of those people no matter which side they are on or how they intend to vote. They must be governed by the same general rules and regulations; we cannot provide for hardships as we go along. I submit we ought to be content to form a solid basis upon which the Legislature can build, by legislation, the provisions which are to govern in regard to the right of suffrage. Mr. HITCHMAN -Now, Mr. Chairman, there is certainly a very grave error in adopting such a resolution as that proposed by the gentleman from Erie [Mr. Verplanck]. Is he mindful of the fact that in the city of New York and other cities in the State, the houses are numbered, and that when an individual moves from a house his name must still be continued on the list as voting from that particular number from which he was originally registered? Is he aware that this would lead to interminable confusion, and that there can be no end to it? Nothing will more surely bring about such confusion than the adoption of this amendment; and I wonder that a gentleman could be found upon this floor who would advocate such a thing as a registry law for the people of the State of New York. That matter, to my mind, belongs to the Legislature of this State, and not to this Convention. It is clearly in my view out of all reason to propose any such thing in the fundamental law. Make your laws to punish illegal voters, but let the citizen of the State exercise the right that belongs to him just as freely as he exercises the right of walking the earth, or participating in the affairs of life. I can see no sort of reason why this Convention should for a single moment pass a registry law. It is an odious enactment among a free people, and should be unknown. There should be no such thing found in the fundamental law of any State in this land, nor upon any statute book. Let those who are guilty of fraud and who vote illegally be punished, and for that purpose let statutes be passed, but not for the purpose of interfering with the rights of the citizen in the free discharge of the duties that belong to him. I hope this amendment will be voted down, and that all amendments looking toward the establishment of a registry law in this State will also be stricken out of the instrument which we shall here form. Mr. VERPLANCK-It being, I think, evident that this Convention are to put into the Constitution some provision for a registry, I would ask the gentleman if it is not best to made it as little onerous as possible? Mr. HITCHMAN-Inasmuch as I am opposed to all registry laws, and as I have no evidence that this Convention is determined to put such a thing into the Constitution I shall vote against all propositions looking to that end; and least of all, I say, is the amendment of the gentleman [Mr. Verplanck] practicable. Mr. DEVELIN-It strikes mb that the amendment proposed by the gentleman from Erie [Mr. Verplanck] is eminently proper after the adoption of the amendment of the gentleman from New York [Mr. Daly]. This latter amendment provides that there shall be a registration completed six days before each general or municipal election. The amendment proposed by the gentleman from Erie is, that the name of every voter appearing on the poll list shall remain there so long as he resides in the same election district. In the city of New York we have our municipal election one month after the general election. The general election occurs in November. The municipal election takes place on the first Tuesday of December. More than one hundred thousand voters are registered for the general election previously to the first of November. If the amendment of the gentleman from New York [Mr. Daly] shall be maintained, all these voters registered for the November election who desire to vote at the December election, within thirty days afterward, must be re-registered. This necessarily results in a useless and expensive operation; because the changes between the first Tuesday of November and the first Tuesday of December, in the way of change of residence, are and will be very small indeed. I do not know exactly the time at which the municipal elections are held in the other cities of the State, but I believe they take place in April. Then between November and April I presume there are not in the smaller cities many changes of residence before the municipal election occurs. But voters must be re-registered there also,unless this proposed 600 amendment prevails, if they desire to vote at the the Convention, and that a motion to restore an next municipal election, which in regard to these amendment thus stricken out cannot be entercities also involves an unnecessary and expensive tained without a reconsideration of the vote. operation. The gentleman from Cayuga [Mr. Rath- Mr. SPENCER - I then move to reconsider the bun] intimates that this proposed amendment is vote by which that amendment was stricken out. legislative in its character. He admits that a por- The PRESIDENT pro ter. - The motion will tion of the amendment offered by the gentleman lie on the table under the rule. now on my right [Mr. Daly] and adopted, is also a Mr. ANDREWS-I offer the following amendmatter of legislation. If, therefore, we have a part ment: of the legislation on this subject, let us complete it Add "This section shall not apply to elections in the Constitution, and make it so that we shall for town officers." not have these unnecessary processes. Now in I think I am in favor, myself, of striking out these regard to the operation of registry laws. Every provisions in the section as it stands, making regisregistry law that has been passed has been aimed tration applicable to special and municipal elections; at a certain portion of the electors of this State. but the object of this particular amendment is to They do not operate equally upon each party. call the attention of the Convention to what seems The registry law of 1840 was limited to the city to me to be the position of town electors under of New York, and was intended to reduce the the provisions of this section as it now stands. democratic majority there. The registry law of The right to vote for town officers is derived from 1865 included a provision which I mentioned this the first part of this article. They are officers morning, requiring a naturalized citizen to prove elected by the people, and all the persons qualified his right to be registered by producing his certifi- to vote, by this article are entitled to vote for cate of naturalization. That provision was aimed them and no others. It is true that the meetings at the democratic majority in the city of New at which such elections are held are called " town York, under the idea that the naturalized citizens meetings," but it is none the less true, as I unthere could not produce their certificates of natu- derstand it, that they are elections held ralization, and thus would be kept off the regis- under the Constitution and by force of the try. This law did not operate equally upon each provisions of the statute made thereunder; and party, because, according to the admission of the it will be seen that section 4, following the one gentleman from Cayuga [Mr. Rathbun], there are under consideration, recognizes town meetings, at more naturalized citizens who belong to the dem- which town officers are elected, as elections within ocratic party than to the republican party. No the meaning of the article. How does it stand test is asked of the colored man who has never under the provision now pending before the Convoted. He is not obliged to prove his birth-place vention? Why, that no person shall be entitled to or offer any record evidence of his right to be vote at any general, special, or municipal election, registered; but when you come to the naturalized unless he shall be registered accordingto the terms citizen, he is obliged to produce record evidence of this act. It is quite clear, to my mind, that within that he has a right to vote. All that legislation, and under one of these terms is included the elecI say, has been aimed altogether at the demo- tion of town officers, which certainly is a special cratic party, and every democrat upon this floor election within the meaning of that term. It is has a right, from the experience of the past, to for the purpose of calling the attention of the suspect any legislation that may be had by the Convention to this fact, that I have offered this now dominant party on the subject of a registry amendment. law. Mr. DEVELIN - I rise to a point of order. If Mr. GOULD -I move that we take a recess the views of the gentleman from Onondaga [Mr. until seven o'clock. Andrews], are correct, that the amendment adopted The question was put on the motion of Mr. covers town elections, then. the resolution Gould, and it was declared lost. offered by the gentleman is out of order, because Mr. NELSON -I move that we now adjourn. a reconsideration of the previous vote must be The question was put on the motion of Mr. had. If the amendment adopted does not include Nelson, and it was declared lost. town elections, then his amendment is unnecessary. The question then recurred on the amendment The PRESIDENT pro temn.-The Chair is of of Mr. Verplanck, and it was declared lost. the opinion that the point of order is not well The PRESIDENT then announced the ques- taken-that the amendment offered by the gention to be on the amendment offered by Mr. tleman from New York [Mr. Daly] is susceptible Champlain, as amended on motion of Mr. Kinney, of amendment. and as further amended on the motion of Mr. Daly. Mr. LAPHAM - It seems to me that the secMr. SPENCER - I rise to ask if the amend- tion is not properly subject to the criticism which ment offered by me and adopted, would be in has been suggested by the gentleman from Ononorder to be moved in the section as it now stands, daga [Mr. Andrews]. It has been held under the to except from the operation of the law the class statute of this State which provides that no court of persons named in the third section. shall sit on the day of a general election, that that The PRESIDENT pro tern. - The Chair is of provision does not apply to either charter elections the opinion that the adoption of the amendment in cities or town meetings. The term " general offered by the gentleman from New York [Mr. election," therefore, does not embrace a town Daly] as a substitute for the preceding proposi- meeting. The term "special election," I submit, tions, and which struck out the amendment offered also does not mean a town meeting, because town by the gentleman from Steuben [Mr. Spencer], meetings are held in pursuance of general laws: must be regarded as the determinate opinion of nor is a municipal election regarded as a special 601 election. Still, if it is regarded as important to ask from them that they shall make our municirelieve the section of any doubt, I do not know pal elections held at the same time we hold our that I shall object to its remaining as it is. general elections, I should be inclined to favor it. Mr. GREELEY - I would suggest to the mover Mr. DEVELIN - I desire to make an explanato strike out the words "general, special and tion in regard to the remarks of the gentleman municipal," and insert the words "in all other from Onondaga [Mr. Alvord]. than town elections." It will shorten and sim- The PRESIDENT pro tern.- The gentleman is plify the clause. out of order, he having already spoken on the Mr. ANDREWS-I accept the amendment. amendment. The question was then put on the amendment Mr. VEEDER —I desire simply to say this, offered by Mr. Andrews, and it was declared that I think the amendment is improper. For carried. the last two years, to my own knowledge, memMr. LAPHAM-I desire to know that those bers of the Legislature have been endeavoring to words are not in the section in regard to the per- abolish the distinction in time between the munison who votes. cipal and general elections in the city of New The PRESIDENT pro ter.-The Chair is not York, and the measure has been successfully responsible for that. opposed by the republican party. Mr. ALVORD-1 move to strike out that por- Mr. HUTCHINS -I should willingly vote for tion of the present amendment which says as the proposition of the gentleman if it was herein prescribed " and say " who shall not have necessary. But it is not necessary. The registered according to law." Legislature may provide that the registry The question was put on the amendment of Mr. that has been taken in the November election Alvord, and it was declared carried. preceding the municipal election may be used at Mr. LIVINGSTON-I offer the following the municipal election. That is the law now; amendment. Add thereto, "and no distinction the registry list provided for the November elecshall be made between persons residing in differ- tion is taken for the municipal election held on ent parts of the State as to the evidence required the first of December following, with the addition to establish their right to be registered." of such names as may be added thereto subseThe PRESIDENT pro tem.- The Chair rules quent to that time. that the amendment offered by the gentleman Mr. WALES -I move that the Convention from Kings [Mr. Livingston] is out of order, take a recess until half-past seven o'clock. because the same question has been passed upon The question was put on the motion of Mr. before. Wales, and it was declared lost. Mr. DEVELIN -I move as a further amend- The question was then announced on the ment that this section shall not apply to the muni- amendment of Mr. Champlain, as amended. cipal elections in the city of New York. One Mr. VERPLANCK -I was about to say that reason I have for offering that amendment is that the subject has become so confused by the there is no necessity for a registration, because the numerous amendments that have been made general election is held on the first of November, it would take a little while to understand what it and thirty days afterward the municipal election is is. I do not believe that members can vote with held, and during those thirty days there are very intelligence upon the question now, and I therefew removals, and the six days that are provided fore move that we adjourn. for by the amendment gives to members of either The question was then put on the motion of party the opportunity to ascertain whether any Mr. Verplanck, and it was declared lost. name has been fraudulently put upon the registry. The SECRETARY proceeded to read section To require a re-registration would make an enor- four as amended, as follows: mous expense, and one which would be totally "Laws shall be made for ascertaining, by without any practical service. proper proofs, the citizens who shall be entitled to Mr. ALVORD - I hope that the amendment of the right of suffrage hereby established. The the gentleman from New York [Mr. Develin] will Legislature shall provide for a registry of all citinot prevail, and for this reason: I hope that we zens entitled to the right of suffrage in each have come to that time in the history of this election district, to be completed at least six days State when all our elections will be had before any election other than a town election. on the same day, and save the people No person shall vote at any such election who vast expense in the matter of elections. The shall not have been registered according to law." municipal elections in different parts of the The PRESIDENT pro tem. -The Chair will State are not determined by constitutional proyi- state that if this section, as amended, is adopted, sions, but by statute, and next year the State of it becomes the section of the Constitution, unless New York may have a Legislature that will pro- altered by some subsequent action of the Convenvide that the municipal election shall be held in tion. the middle of the Summer, and again in another Mr. DEVELIN - Are there not one or two portion of the year, so that the circumstances motions to reconsider before the vote is taken? may be widely different from what have been The PRESIDENT pro tern. - There are motions suggested by the gentleman. It will redound to reconsider pending, but they cannot be taken very much to the interest of the people of this up until the time is reached which makes them in State to bring down all municipal elections to the order. same time and place for holding our general elec- Mr. DEVELIN - Can the vote on the pending tions. If this amendment went in that direction, amendment be taken at all after the motions to to compel the people, through the Legislature, to reconsider are considered? 76 602 The PRESIDENT pro ter.- The Chair is of subordinate officer than that performed by an opinion that motions to reconsider can be called inspector of election. Under the provisions of up to-morrow, and that, in the mean time, the vote the Revised Statutes, all inspectors of election on the pending section can be taken. originally were elected, and the statute required Mr. CONGER - I call for the ayes and noes. that the inspector should be a resident and voter A sufficient number seconding the call the ayes of the election district in which he was elected to and noes were ordered. act. This statute remained in force until the pasThe roll was then called on the amendment of sage of the registry law of 1859. By the provisMr. Champlain as amended, and it was declared ions of this statute, passed in 1859, the general carried by the following vote: registry law, a provision was. made for the appointAyes- Messrs. A. F. Allen, C. L. Allen, Alvord, ment of inspectors and canvassers of election iu Andrews, Archer, Axtell, Barker, Beadle; Beals, the city of New York, by the board of superviBeckwith, Bell, Bickford, E. A. Brown, W. C. sors of that city, but the provision of law requiring Brown, Case, Clinton, Cooke, T. W. Dwight, Eddy, that the inspectors of election should be residents Endress, Farnum, Ferry, Flagler, Folger, Fowler, and voters in the election districts in which they Fuller, Fullerton, Goodrich, Grant, Graves, Gross, were appointed to act, remained unchanged. Hadley, Hale, Hammond, Hand, Harris, Houston, Again, in 1860, a subsequent law was passed, in Hutchins, Ketcham, Kinney, Krum, Lapham, A. reference to the appointment and duties of inspecLawrence, Lee, Ludington, McDonald, Merrill, tors of election, in the city of New York, conMerritt, Miller, Pond, Prindle, Rathbun, Reynolds, tinuing the power in the board of supervisors to Root, Rumsey, L. W. Russell, Sheldon, Sherman, appoint the inspectors, and providing that the Smith, Spencer, Stratton, Van Cott, Wakeman, inspector should be a voter in the ward containWales, Williams-65. ing the election district for which he was appointed, Noes- Messrs. Barnard, Bergen, Bowen, E. and also that the inspector should be able to read Brooks, Burrill, Cassidy, Champlain, Chesebro, and write. But in 1865 the Legislature saw fit to Cochran, Conger, Develin, Greeley, Hitchman, Ker- pass an act by which the appointment of inspecnan, Law, M. H. Lawrence, Livingston, Loew, Low- tors of elections in the city of New York was taken rey, Magee, Mattice. Monell, Nelson, Paige, Potter, away entirely from the board of supervisors, and Robertson, Rolfe, Schell, Schumaker, Seymour, was placed in the hands of the police commisTappen, S. Townsend, Van Campen, Veeder, Ver- sioners of the city of Now York. There complanck, Weed, Wickham-38. menced the first infringement upon the rights of Mr. CONGER —I move to reconsider the vote the people; that law abolished the requirement just taken. that the inspectors of election should be residents The PRESIDENT pro ter.-The motion will of the election district, or of the ward in which lie on the table under the rule. the election district was situated at which he was The SECRETARY proceeded to read section 5, to act, and permitted the appointment of inspectors as follows: who were residents of the assembly district, in "All elections by the citizens shall be by ballot, which the election district at which he was to except for such town officers as may by law be act, was situated. The object of the law requirdirected to be otherwise chosen." ing inspectors of election to be residents of Mr. EDDY-I move that the Convention do the election districts in which they were now adjourn. elected or appointed to act, undoubtedly The question was put on the motion of Mr. was to secure inspectors who were familiar with Eddy, and it was declared lost. the residents of the district. The law of 1865 Mr. VEEDER-I offer the following amend- requiring that these inspectors of elections should ment to section 5: be simply residents of the assembly district in "And all laws as to the manner of holding which they were appointed, abolished this time elections, and the election or appointment of honored principle. By an act of the Legislature inspectors and canvassers of elections and their of 1866 the law was again amended, and the qualifications, shall be uniform in their require- police commissioners in the city of New York ments." were authorized to appoint inspectors of elections Mr. LAPHAM - I rise to a point of order. I in that city, regardless of where they resided, so submit that that amendment is precisely what the long as they resided in the city and county of Convention has already voted should not be in the New York. The result is this, that to-day an Constitution. inspector of election may be appointed by the The PRESIDENT pro tem.-The Chair was in police commissioners to act as an inspector of doubt whether it was or not, because language election in the first ward who resides at Harlem, similar was used in an amendment presented to and in a district where he is perhaps totally unthe previous section. acquainted with the voters. This necessarily leads Mr. VEEDER -I desire to make an explana- to confusion. In the city of Brooklyn, however, tion. the inspectors of election are appointed by the The PRESIDENT pro tern. - The Chair rules supervisors, but the law allows them to appoint that the amendment is in order. any qualified voter in that city to act in any elecMr. VEEJDER —My object in offering this tion district. I do not object to the appointment amendment is that I may call the attention of the by the boards of supervisors in the several counConvention to the manner in which persons acting ties. I desire the original provision of law as inspectors of election have been elected or requiring the inspectors appointed to be residents appointed in different localities. In my judgment of the election district and voters in the election no more important duty can be performed by a district in which they serve to be retained. Al 603 though the supervisors yet appoint inspectors of elections in the city of Brooklyn,an inspector can be appointed who resides in Greenpoint (the extreme eastern part of the city) to conduct an election in the southern part of the city, where probably be does not know a single voter. I believe, Mr. President, that this class of special legislation should cease, and that there should be some provision in the Constitution taking away from the Legislature the power from time to time as in their view or by their caprice they may see fit to interfere with this matter. I submit that the manner of appointment should be uniform, and that the inspectors should be residents and voters of the election district in which they are appointed to act, and if that were done it would obviate the necessity of the personal uttendance of electors on the day of registration. This is one reason why, in the country, a personal attendance is not required for registration, because the inspectors are acquainted and familiar with every voter in the district. We are met here with the assertion that the people in the country should be required to attend personally before the board of registry. Why do you pass laws allowing the appointment of incompetent inspectors and persons wholly unacquainted with the voters to act in the city, and then to obviate this defective system, impose upon the people the burden of attending personally before the board of registry and establish their identity to a board with whom they are acquainted, when, if you would confine the appointment of inspectors to persons resident of the election district in which they are to act respectively, you would secure the selection of inspectors who were acquainted with the voters of their districts, and then the personal attendance of the voter could be dispensed with? It is for this reason that I desire uniform laws in reference to the election or appointment of inspectors and canvassers. It will be remembered that when the Metropolitan police board was established, the main argument urged by the advocates, of the measure was the necessity of establishing a police board entirely free from politics and political influences. In fact, to secure perfect freedom from all political influences, a provision was incorporated in the law prohibiting the commissioners of police from holding any other office, and from performing any other duties of any office not directly connected with the administration of their duties as police officers. I have failed to hear or discover any good reason why the board of supervisors in the city of New York should not be permitted to appoint the inspectors of election in that city. In the city of Brooklyn they are appointed by the board of supervisors. In the remaining portions of the State they are elected. Where is the necessity for this special legislation - for this innovation upon the rights of localities. I have presented these instances of special legislation in order to show the necessity of somle provision in the organic law, requiring uniform legislation upon this subject. I cannot understand the neces. sity for this class of special legislation, and whatever may have been the object of the Legislature to pass these obnoxious and unjust laws, I am convinced that the people of the several counties are entitled to protection against the passage of laws which have resulted in no possible good to the communities upon which they have been forced, but have invariably produced great inconvenience, hardship and oppression. Here the gavel fell, the five minutes having expired. Mr. S. TOWNSEND-I have an amendment which I offer to apply to the country districts. I propose as a substitute to section five, now under consideration, or section four, which has just been adopted, the following amendment: Sec. 5. The bounds of all election districts, in districts other than those of incorporated villages and cities, shall be those of the several school districts; and the trustees of said school districts shall constitute the inspectors of registry and election. The bounds of districts and the inspectors of registry and election in incorporated villages and cities, shall be such as the Legislature may direct, provided that no more than two hundred electors, as near as may be, shall reside in any such district. The polls for all other than town elections shall be open on one day from the hour of noon to that of two p. M. Mr. PRINDLE-I move that the Convention do now adjourn. The question was put on the motion of Mr. Prindle, and it was declared lost. Mr. S. TOWNSEND —The adoption of this system would cover some of the difficulties suggested by the gentleman from Kings [Mr. Veeder], who has just taken his seat, arising from the unknown character of the inspectors that are now appointed by the police boards of some of our cities —men ignorant personally of the electors whose voting they supervise and would defeat, from the smallness and neighborhood character of the district, many of the opportunities now afforded for irregular voting, coupled with the limitation of two hours for the voting period, and those the hours of leisure with our rural and laboring population. In almost any of our schooldistricts, a walk of half a mile to the school-house, and the sacrifice of one hour of leisure time, would enable every elector who desired, to record and deposit his vote. The distance in some of the districts of my county [Queens], from the place of voting to the home of the elector, now exceeds five miles, and requires the greater portion of the day in the exercise of that duty which every good citizen desires to perform. The gentleman from Allegany [Mr. Champlain], the other day, moderately estimated the expenses of a general election at some $400,000 or $500,000. My view is that the mere saving of time to the 800,000 electors alone, under this proposition, may be safely and moderately estimated at $1,000,000, annually-amply sufficient to defray any additional expense that the increase of election districts might involve. These inspectors or trustees of schools, being now selected from our most intelligent citizens, would probably render this service at a very moderate compensation, as election districts would not average over 50 voters each. Even though, in some, cases, there may be but one trustee (as some gentlemen now remark), that should present no difficulty, for we would then be assured of a 604 man of that character who would, in the language of the gentleman from Oneida [Mr. Kernan], a iew days since, " shame down " any attempt to force into the ballot-box the vote of any idiot or other improper person. The objection of the gentleman from Broome [Mr. Hand], that it would mix up our school system with politics, is not, in my estimation, a serious one; it would familiarize our youth of both sexes, (and here the gentleman from Richmond [Mr. Curtis], will sympathize with me), with some of the necessary duties that in the lapse of a few years many of them should become familiar with. Indeed, I learn that the services of the gentler sex are now often called into requi-' sition in making up the returns of our present inspectors and registers -to my own knowledge, they often, in our families, assist in preparing the preliminary ballots- and apropos of this view, the very official reports of our debates are not less interesting from the fact that the gentler sex have aided directly in preparing them for the press. The novelty of the provision is not more startling now, than the proposition of the one day's election was 27 years since, when made in the Legislature of this State. Yet the difficulty of most significance is, that all other matters of detail that have occupied so much of our time, partake more of a legislative than an organic nature. Mr. CASE - How would the gentleman provide for registers in the school-districts where they elect but one trustee? Mr. S. TOWNSEND - I would be willing that one trustee should act' as the inspector in a district of not over twenty votes. Mr. NELSON- Why not insert in the amendment, that in the case where there is only one trustee, the school-master or the " school-marm" shall act with the inspector? [Laughter.] Mr. TOWNSEND-That would suit the idea of the gentleman from Richmond [Mr. Curtis]. Mr. HAND-I have got just one single objection to this amendment. There are a great many others. We now elect our trustees on account of their fitness for taking charge of the affairs of education in the respective districts. There should be no politics in the affairs of our schools. I wish to have them disconnected with any political feeling. This amendment would transfer the whole subject of politics into the school-district, and we should elect as trustees, to whom we must commit the great interests of the education of our children, men, who would be thus brought into the political arena. They would be elected without regard to the interests of education, but upon partisan considerations. For this reason, I object to the amendment most decidedly. The question was then put on the amendment of Mr. S. Townsend anad it was declared lost. The President then announced the question to be on the amendment of Mr. Yeeder. Mr. VEEDER -I call for the ayes and noes. Mr. HUTCHINS-I consider the amendmlent offered by the gentleman from Kings [Mr. Veeder] a dangerous one, and one which ought not to be passed. This matter of registry in the city of New York has grown up in consequence of the wants and necessities of that city. The idea that the inspectors and registers of election should be appointed or elected in the same manner in the city as in the country would imply that the elections are carried on as honestly and in the same manner in the city as in the country. The election of inspectors and registers was continued as long as the men elected could read the English language and write their names, and add up a column of figures; but when that ceased to be the case, the law was changed and the appointment was given to the Board of Supervisors of the city and county of New York. That worked very well for a time, but a very great evil crept into the system growing out of this fact, that when the supervisors made the appointments, and the day of the election came, and the canvassing of votes was commenced, the inspector who had been selected, in consequence of his capacity and integrity would decline to act, and the remaining inspectors would put in another man in his place who would be on hand, prepared to act a willing tool to carry out the wishes of certain parties, so that, as is said in New York, a candidate would be elected after the poll closed on the day of election. To remedy this evil, a law was finally passed giving to the Metropolitan police commissioners the power of appointing inspectors and registers of election, and in case of a vacancy to fill that vacancy; but the inspectors were to be taken from the election districts where they were to serve. It was found, however, impossible in some districts to secure the services of men capable of discharging the duties, for we all know that it requires some ability to fairly and correctly conduct an election, and canvass the votes. The consequence was that in most of the districts in certain portions of the city the election returns had to be sent back by the county canvasser for correction. In order to correct that evil, it became necessary to appoint inspectors of election out of the district in order that they might have men capable of discharging the duties of the office. Mr. VEEDER- I wish to call the attention of the gentleman to the law of 1860. The law requires vacancies to be filled up by the Board of Supervisors, and not by the remaining inspectors. His idea of inspectors dropping out and others substituted by the remaining members of the board of inspectors is incorrect. Mr. HUTCHINS —The persons who were appointed canvassers or inspectors to fill vacancies when they occurred were invariably persons named by the remaining inspectors. There was a necessity to have this change made if we were to have honest elections; and the gentleman from Kings [Mr. Veeder], I do not think will claim that we have not had honest elections since the change was made, and that we have not had capable and unpartial inspectors, registers and canvassers at our elections. But go back to the old system the gentleman proposes and we shall soon be compelled to make a change. Mr. E. BROOKS - The gentleman from New York, who has just taken his seat, has not stated all the facts. The board of supervisors is a body created by the Legislature of the State of New York, and it is so constituted that one-half of the members must be of one party, and one-half of the other party. The power was taken from the 605 Board of Supervisors, and given to the police conm- front of the placo where an election is held, and missioners, who happened to be about all of the no determination can be had in that way by party which is in the majority in the State, and which we can arrive definitely at what the electors which is represented by the gentleman from New desire in regard to that matter. Now, when York [Mr. Hutchins]. questions of that character are to be taken, Mr. HUTCHINS — Will the gentleman allow according to the law as it now is, notice should me to ask him a question? Does he claim the be given that a certain amount was to be raised Board of Supervisors are equally divided between for a certain purpose, and it should provide that the two great parties? ballots should be furnished showing what sum of Mr. E. BROOKS - Yes, sir; that is the law and money is desired to be raised so that the electors as I understand it, that is the fact.; both parties can vote for or against it, and in that way we are represented in the Board of Supervisors and could get at a definite expression of the popular the power was taken from them over inspectors of will with regard to such matters. election and given to the police commissioners, Mr. VERPLANCK-I had hoped there were which is a partisan commission some things which would not be mixed up The question was then put on the amendment in politics. We have in the country various offiof Mr. Veeder, and it was declared lost by the cers in road districts which have generally been following vote: held by persons without regards to politics, and Ayes-Messrs. Barnard, Bergen, Bickford, E. the proposition of the gentleman from CattarauBrooks. Burrill, Cassidy, Chesebro, Clinton, Coch- gus [Mr. Van Campen] proposes that all such ran, Conger, Daly, Fowler, Hitchman, Law, Living- officers should be elected by ballot. It would be ston, Loew, Lowrey, Mattice, Monell, Paige, perfectly impossible to have such election on acRobertson, Rolfe, Schell, Seymour, Tappen, S. count of the number of road districts, and it Townsend, Veeder, Verplanck, Wickham-29. would lead to endless confusion. Noes- Messrs. A. F. Allen, C. L. Allen, Alvord, Mr. BERGEN-I hope this amendment will not Andrews, Axtell, Barker, Beadle, Beals, Beckwith, prevail. It has been the custom in that part of the Bell, Boweu, E. A. Brown, W. C. Brown, Case, country in which I reside, at town meetings to Clark, Cooke, T. W. Dwight, Eddy, Endress, Farn- elect road masters and pound masters by a vote, um, Ferry, Flagler, Folger, Goodrich, Gould. Grant, but not by a ballot, and I presume that is the cusGraves, Greeley, Hadley, Hale, Hammond, Hand, tom in other parts of the State. I know it is the Harris, Hitchcock, Houston, Hutchins, Ketcham, rule in the county of Kings, and there never has Kinney, Krum, Lapham, A. Lawrence, M. H. any difficulty occurred in relation to electing that Lawrence, Lee, Ludington, Magee, McDonald, class of officers by that method. These offices are Merrill, Miller, Nelson, Potter, Prosser, Rathbun, not desired, but as a general thing they are taken Reynolds, Root, Rumsey, Schoonmaker, Sheldon, by persons as a matter of convenience to the Sherman, Smith, Spencer, Stratton, M. I. Town- neighbors and for the public benefit, without being send, Van Campen, Van Cott, Wakeman, Wales, desired by individuals. If you adopt this amendWilliams-67. ment you throw these offices into the political Mr. VEEDER-I move a reconsideration of the arena, and we have never placed them on vote which has just been taken. political grounds. Other officers who are The motion was laid over. now elected by ballot are elected on political Mr. VAN CAMPEN-I offer the following grounds. I think it is wise to continue amendment to section five: the practice which has been in vogue so long at "All elections and all officers elected by the least with us. If it is left alone it will operate electors of this State shall be by ballot; and all well; if this amendment is adopted it will have an questions submitted to the electors for their injurious effect. Then there are other questions assent, approval or decision shall be by ballot." which arise at town meetings which it would be My object in moving this amendment is, that in difficult to settle by ballot, for instance, the raising all cases where an expression of the public will is of money, to repair highways. As the law now desired it shall be taken by ballot. There have stands, by the recommendation of the commisbeen a few officers appointed at town meetings sioners of highways a town meeting has the right where this rule has not applied, such as overseers to vote and appropriate a small sum (the sum of of the higliways, and the manner in which that seventy-five dollars in the county of Kings, in has been done is never such as to take the public other counties it may be different) on a motion, sense in regard to the matter at all. I understand without a vote by ballot. The gentleman's amendthere was a law passed a year ago last ment would take away from the town that right, winter giving that appointment to the com- for a ballot could not be prepared in time for that missioner of highways, but that I am told, purpose, no printed notice having been required, has been repealed. I desire that in the though previous notices are required for larger future such elections shall be by ballot. In re- sums. There are also other matters which are gard to the latter clause, providing that on all taken by a viva voce vote at town meetings which questions submitted to the people for their this amendment would interfere with, and for approval, the decision shall always be taken by these reasons I hope the amendment will not preballot-as it is very well known to gentlemen that vail. in towns, where additional sums of money are The question was then put on the amend. required to be raised for certain purposes, that ment of Mr. Van Campen, and it was declared the vote taken is taken in such a way as not to lost. represent with any certainty the popular will. Mr. BARKER - I offer the following amendThe question is generally submitted to a crowd in ment: 606 Amend the section by striking out the words "by the citizens" in line 1. I offer this because it is, I think, a better expression, and more certain in its meaning. Mr. CONGER -I would suggest to the gentleman he might also strike out or leave out the phrase introduced, so that it will read, "all elections shall be by ballot." Mr. VERPLANCK —I hope this amendment will not prevail. These are words which have been in all the Constitutions of this State, and I want to keep, if I can, two or three of the old words. The object of this is to require that all elections shall be by ballot. When persons are elected to office by the Legislature, it is done viva voce, and I think it is a very proper way, and I hope these words will not be stricken out. Mr. ROBERTSON —I move to further amend by striking out mhe word 'citizens," and insert the word "people." The question was put on the amendment of Mr. Robertson, and it was declared lost. The question then recurred upon the amendment of Mr. Barker, and it was declared lost. Mr. HARRIS - I move to strike out the words " by electors," so that it will read "all elections shall be by ballot." -The PRESIDENT pro tem. — That motion is not now in order, having just been voted down. Mr. FERRY - I move to amend the section by inserting after the word " officers" in line 2 the words "or objects." My reason is this: that in the section as it reads, "all elections must be by ballot." In voting for officers we all know that there are many objects for which we vote at town meetings which do not involve elections of town officers. It is said that voting for those objects are not elections, but I understand the amendment provides for all cases at these elections, and we also often vote for objects such as bounties, etc., and similar objects, for which we are in the habit of voting viva voce, or by ballot, as we see fit. Certainly, if this construction shall be put upon the language, it is very desirable that the word "objects" should be inserted, so we shall be at liberty to take that action. The question was put on the amendment of Mr. Ferry, and it was declared lost. Mr. TAPPEN - As the section is now, amendmentsThe PRESIDENT pro tem.-The Chair is not informed that any amendments have been adopted. Mr. TAPPEN - I withdraw my remarks upon that subject then. The question was then put upon section 5, and it was declared adopted. Mr. CASE -I move the Convention do now adjourn. The question was put on the motion of Mr. Case, and it was declared lost. The SECRETARY then proceeded to read the sixth section, as follows: SEo. 6. No person who is not, at the time of taking the oath of office, an elector, shall hold any office under this Constitution. All officers shall, before they enter on the duties of their respective offices, take and subscribe the following oath or affirmation: " I do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will sup port the Constitution of the United States, and the Constitttion of the State of New York; and that I will faithfully discharge the duties of (the office he is to hold) according to the best of my ability." Mr. ALVORD-I do not think there is any real necessity for this sixth section down to the words " all officers " im the third line, but some persons may not agree with me, and in order to make it, as it seems to me it properly should be, it should read that " no person who is not at the time of taking the oath of office, a citizen of the State, and except as to length of residence, an elector. shall hold any office under the Constitution." You can see very well that in very many instances, a gentleman who has had a long residence in the State under this requirement may not be a resident in the county for four months, and therefore, he is not an elector and cannot by this section hold any county office. A man may be a resident of the city or State of New York for a year and may be under the necessity of being absent in one of the neighboring sister States, and remain absent two or three months, absolutely having changed his residence, and if he comes into the State just before election, say two or three or four months, he is, under this provision, ineligible to any office in the gift of the State until he shall become entirely an elector by having lived in the State a year continuously, and within the county four months. It is for this reason, it seems to me, the language of the section is entirely unnecessary. I have no objection to altering the amendment so as to read, " No person who is not at the time of taking the oath of office a citizen of this State shall hold any office." Mr. BARNARD- It appears to me that the subject of qualification for office, and the oath of office does not belong in this section, and I, therefore, move to strike out the whole section. In the Constitution, under which we now live, the oath of office is a separate article, and I believe the committees who have before them the subject of State officers will provide an oath, and I think it does not belong to the suffrage part of the Constitution at all. Mr. MERRILL -I wish to explain that the committee placed this section in the article, supposing it to be their duty from the title which was given to the committeee: "The Committee on the Right of Suffrage and the Qualifications to Hold Office." The question was then put on the motion of Mr. Barnard, and it was declared lost. Mr. HALE -I move to amend by striking out the first and second lines of this section. There never has been any provision of this kind, and I am not aware that we have ever suffered any inconvenience from the absence of electors so far as regards any county office. Mr. ALVORD-I will accept that. Mr. GREELEY-I would beg the Convention to consider this very fully. Here are gentlemen moving into the State and moving out, and I think gentlemen can afford to wait long enough to become voters before they become candidates. I have known uneasy persons to move into a new locality simply to get office. I think this is a reasonable 607 proposition. The committee could not help stating some qualification for office, for the order of the Convention required it; and I think this is a very mild requirement of the qualifications for holding office in this State; and I hope it will be adopted. The question was put on the amendment of Mr. Hale, and it was declared to be lost. Mr. LIVINGSTON-I desire to offer the following amendment, and upon it I wish to call for the ayes and noes. Amend the section by inserting after the word "election" in line two, the words. " and a white man. " Mr. HAND-I would inquire of the gentleman what particular shade of white is required and whether he would appoint the inspectors to ascertain that. Not a sufficient number seconding the call the ayes and noes were not ordered. Mr. WAKEMAN - I am opposed to the proposition of the gentleman from Kings, for as the proposition reads I do not understand that there is any tribunal for determining who is qualified to hold office. I suppose if a man is elected to fill any office his certificate of election would be sufficient to entitle him to hold office and no person can question it. If this amendment prevails, and if a person elected presents himself with his credentials, the incumbent in office can refuse to give up the office or books and papers pertaining to it, taking the ground that the person who claims to be elected is not qualified and there is no tribunal designated to settle that question. Mr. SEYMOUR-I move to strike out the words " an elector" and insert "citizens of this State." The reason for that is, that there are persons who may be citizens of the State but who have a temporary absence. They may not be entitled to vote, and this may be so construed as to prevent such a person who should be a citizen of the State from holding office. I think there should be no objections of that kind. Mr. ALVORD -I do really hope gentlemen of the Convention will understand this, and when they do understand it they will vote accordingly upon this proposition. I have had very serious doubts in my mind whether the Chair understood the original proposition when it was made and voted upon by the Convention. I will again reiterate in a few words exactly what the effect of this section must necessarily be. A person who lives in the county of Rensselaer, for instance, eight months in the year, and happens accidentally to be required to go out of the county for two months, and then comes back just previous to election, he is, under this provision, ineligible to hold any county office or other office in the State. A man may spend his entire lifetime in the State and then go out within one year previous to the election, and when he comes back again he is ineligible to office until he shall have been in the State for a year. I trust that no such motion as that will prevail at the hands of this Convention. Mr. KERNAN- I desire to call the attention of the gentleman to one thing. A man may be qualified to be elected, but if not an elector cannot take the oath of office. Mr. ALVORD I understand that. That is in addition to what I have said. Therefore the amendment of the gentleman from Rensselaer [Mr. Chesebro], which provides that the person shall be a citizen of the United States, and of the State, seems to me all that should be required. Mr. BURRILL-I would merely like to ask the gentleman from Onondaga what is the definition of a citizen of the State. There is nothing in the Constitution which prescribes what constitutes a citizen of the State. Mr. ALVORD-A citizen of the State is a person who is entitled, after he shall have gone through certain pre-requisites to become an elector; and he is a citizen of the State by virtue of our laws the moment he comes within our State, having the same privileges, powers, and duties as all citizens, except the same right of voting. Mr. CLINTON-One objection to this amendment is that if it be adopted, you may under its provisions elect minors. Mr. PRINDLE-I would like to ask the gentleman from Rensselaer [Mr. Seymour] whether he intends to include females? Mr. SEYMOUR —No, sir, I do not intend to include females, and I do not suppose that the amendment as it stands now, will include them. The PRESIDENT pro ter. announced thequestion to be upon the amendment of the gentleman from Rensselaer [Mr. Seymour]. Mr. COCHRAN - I rise to a point of order. Is not the question upon the motion of the gentleman from Kings [Mr. Livingston]? The PRESIDENT pro ter. -Not in the first instance. In the first instance the question is upon the motion of the gentleman from Rensselaer [Mr. Seymour]. Mr. ALVORD - May I ask the gentleman from Rensselaer to hear read the original proposition made by me, to see if he will not accept it as his amendment? It is as follows: "That no person who is not at the time of taking the oath of office a citizen of the State, and except as to length of residence, an elector, shall hold any office under the Constitution." Mr. SEYMOUR- I will accept that. Mr. CHESEBRO-I rise to a point of order, that the proposition as now modified has been already voted down. The PRESIDENT pro tem.-The Chair is not informed that such is the case. The proposition of the gentleman from Essex [Mr. Hale] was voted down. Mr. CHESEBRO-I understood that was accepted by the gentleman from Onondaga [Mr. Alvord] and became his proposition. The PRESIDENT pro tem.-The gentleman from Onondaga [Mr. Alvord] moved as he has just stated in his place, and the gentleman from Essex [Mr. HaleJ made a suggestion which the gentleman from Onondaga adopted, and that amendment was voted down. Then the gentleman from Kings [Mr. Livingston] made an amendment, and next the gentleman from Rensselaer [Mr. Seymour] made an amendment. The gentleman from Onondaga now suggested to the gentleman from Rensselaer [Mr. Seymour] that he should accept as his amendment-the proposition which he first made, and which he subse 608 quently allowed to be displaced on the suggestion conflict with the Constitution of the United of the gentleman from Essex [Mr. Hale], and the States. Chair now understands the gentleman from Rens- The PRESIDENT pro tern.- The Chair is unaBelaer to accept that as his amendment. ble to decide the question on the spur of the moMr. SEYMOUR - I do accept it. ment. The question was put upon the amendment of Mr. BARNARD- I will read the section. ArtiMr. Seymour, and it was declared carried, on a cle 6, of the Constitution of the United States, division, by a vote of 48 to 37. says: Mr. CHESEBRO —I desire to move a recon- "The Senators and Representative and the sideration of the vote by which the amendment members of the several State Legislatures, and all of the gentleman from Rensselaer has been car- executive and judicial officers, both of the United ried. States and of the several States, shall be bound The motion was laid on the table under the rule. by oath or affirmation, to support this ConstituMr. HALE -I move a reconsideration of the tion." vote by which the amendment offered by myself Mr. HAND - Under which head does a school was lost. trustee belong -executive or judicial? The motion was laid on the table under the rule. Mr. BARNARD - Every officer of government The question was then put on the amendment who takes the oath to support the Constitution of of Mr. Livingston, and it was declared lost. the United States, is I suppose, if not judicial, or Mr. BICKFORD offered the following amend- legislative an executive officer, and. is sworn mend: in conformity with that Constitution. " By inserting after the word ' officers' in the Mr. BICKFORD-I would merely say that this third line, the words 'except such town and vil- class of officers, such as path-masters, overseers lage officers as the Legislature shall not require to of the poor and pound-masters are not classed either take the oath of office.' as legislative, judicial or executive officers. They As the section now stands every pathmaster are mere administrative officers. will have to take the oath of office, and every vil- The question was again put ort the amendment lage trustee, and street commissioner, which I of Mr. Bickford, and it was declared carried, on a think is entirely unnecessary and contrary to the division, by a vote of 42 to 32. usual practice, and therefore, I think the amend- Mr. CASSIDY-I move as a substitute to the ment ought to prevail. several articles which have been presented, the Mr. SPENCER-I offer the following substitute section in the existing Constitution. I move to for the amendment of the gentleman from Jeffer- substitute for section 6, as reported by the comson [Mr. Bickford.] In drawing that amendment mittee, article 12 as it now stands in the ConstituI would say, I have copied the language from the tion, which is in these words: Constitution of 1846. Insert after the word 'Members of the legislature and all officers, exe" officers," in line 3, "except such inferior officers cutive and judicial, except such inferior officers as as may by law be exempted." may be by law exempted, shall, before they enter Mr. BICKFORD-T will accept that amendment. on the duties of their respective offices, take and Mr. BERGEN -I hope that amendment will subscribe the following oath or affirmation: be adopted. There are a large number of infe- "I do solemnly swear (or affirm, as the case may rior officers in this State who are not required to be) that I will support the Constitution of the take the constitutional oath of office. and I see no United States, and the Constitution of the State good reason why they should be required. For in- of New York; and that I will faithfully discharge stance, the trustees of schools, and the clerks of the duties of the office of - - according to common schools, and commissioners of highways the best of my ability." and pound-masters. These offices in our locality, " And no other oath, declaration or test shall be at least, have generally gone begging, and persons required as a qualification for any office or public are induced to take them by persuasion for the trust." benefit of the neighborhood. There may be other That article has stood for a great many years, and localities where these offices are sought for, but has been approved always; and I believe there in our portion of the county of Kings these officers was no discussion in reference to it and no intenhave never been required to take the oath. tion on the part of the Committee of Suffrage to That has been the practice for years past, and no alter it. difficulty has occurred in consequence of their not The PRESIDENT lpro tern. - Does the gentletaking this oath. Under the present Constitution man [Mr. Cassidy], move it as a substitute for the they are not required to take the oath. There whole section, or for so much of the section as has been no necessity for it, and no complaint follows line three? that I have ever heard of, and I hope the Mr. CASSIDY -For the whole section. amendment will be adopted. Mr. GREELEY-The Committee on Official CorMr. MERRiLL- I do not see what harm can ruption is expected to act very decidedly and very result from requiring all officers, high and low, to promptly and to propose some stringent oath of take this oath. Instead of being injurious, it office, with reference to corruption. The last section seems to me it would be a healthy operation. of the gentleman's amendment will cut off all such The question was then put on the amendment oaths. I do not wish to forestall that question, and was declared carried. A division was called and, therefore, I wish he would withdraw the last for. clause. If he does not I trust the Convention will Mr. BARNARD - I rise to a question of order. vote it down; for I wish the Convention to be I ask whether this proposed amendment is not in left free, if they shall choose hereafter, to apply 609 some test in regard to corruption in office. For do so, and that on his refusal or omission to take instance, a man has corruptly bought his office- such oath, his election to such office shall be void; has corruptly promised to do this or that thing if and if such person so elected to such office shall he gets the office. That I do not wish to be pre- have paid or advanced any money or property for eluded from dealing with by our action on this defraying the expenses aforesaid, he shall further question; and, therefore, if that is insisted upon, state in such oath, the several sums of money and I shall vote against his proposition to amend. the respective values of the property so paid or Mr. KERNAN - If the section proposed by the advanced, the respective specific objects for which gentleman from Albany [Mr. Cassidy] is substi- such payments or advances were respectively made tuted for the one under consideration, there will and the names of the persons respectively to be no difficulty then, if members of the Conven- whom they were made: and in case such person tion desire it, to amend the oath as suggested by shall be convicted of directly or indirectly adthe gentleman from Westchester [Mr. Greeley], and vancing or paying after he shall have entered thus embrace what he desires in reference to cor- upon the duties of such office, or after he shall ruption. have taken such oath of office, any money or Mr. LAPHAM -I am opposed to this amend- property as a repayment to any person or perment. The Constitution of 1846 embraces the lat- sons, or indemnification for advancing or paying ter clause in the oath, and was adopted at a time money or property for any of the purposes above when the events which have since transpired, were mentioned, except for defraying the expenses of not anticipated by any one. It had not entered printing and circulation of votes, handbills and into the imagination of any man to conceive that other papers previous to such election, or of such a wicked attempt to destroy this government, promising, agreeing or offering to do so; such would have been made as has since actually occured person so elected to such office, and convicted as and I am opposed to re-enacting an oath aforesaid, shall forfeit such office or the right to of office which will forbid us in any form whatever hold the same; and the Legislature shall pass all from adopting the necessary tests to apply the laws necessary to carry the provisions of this present exigencies of the time to all classes of section into effect." officers wherever it shall be deemed necessary. I Mr. PAIGE - Upon reflection I withdraw it am opposed to it for another reason. The gentle- now, and will offer it as an additional section. man from Onondaga [Mr. Comstock], not long Mr. AXTELL -I offer an amendment to the since, during this very debate, in effect proposed section as it now stands. After the word "ability" the same thing, that no test oath of any descrip- in the tenth line, section six, add the following: tion should hereafter be adopted, and it has been "I do further solemnly swear or affirm that I voted down. This is a proposition to re-enact in have not either directly or indirectly paid or consubstance what he proposed to have enacted, and tributed, or promised to pay or contribute, any which the Convention rejected. money or other valuable thing for the purpose of Mr. BERGEN -I would like to have the being used, or which has been used directly or amendment read. indirectly as a reward or compensation to any The PRESIDENT pro tern. - The amendment voter or other person to secure my election, or in is not in possession of either the Chair or the procuring my nomination to this office." Secretary. It is proposed to strike out the whole The question was then put on the amendment section and substitute section 12 of the present of Mr. Axtell, and it was declared lost. Constitution for it. A count was called for. Mr. CONGER- I call for the ayes and noes. Mr. AXTELL- I withdraw the amendment. Mr. PAIGE -I intended to offer an amend- Mr. BELL - I would like to inquire of the genment requiring from the successful candidate tleman from Albany [Mr. Cassidy] whether he elected to any office, an oath, and my design had retains the latter clause, "and no oath, declarabeen to offer it as a separate section - as section tion or test shall be required." number 7, but the proposition of the gentleman Mr. CASSIDY -Yes, sir. from Albany [Mr. Cassdy], would cut it out, and Mr. BELL - Then I shall vote against it. I therefore propose to offer an amendment to sec- Mr. ALVORD -I move to amend by striking tion 6, and the Convention may, at its option, ap- out the words, "and no other oath, declaration or prove of it there, or have it adopted as a separate test shall be required." section. The question was then put on the amendment The SECRETARY proceeded to read the of Mr. Alvord, and it was declared carried. amendment of Mr. Paige, as follows: The question was then put on the amendment " SE. 7. Every person elected at any election to of Mr. Cassidy as amended. fill an elective office, before he takes the oath of A sufficient number having seconded the call office prescribed in the next preceding section for the ayes and noes they were ordered, and the of this article and enters upon the duties of such amendment was declared carried by the following office, shall take and subscribe an oath that he has vote: not directly or indirectly paid or advanced any Ayes-Messrs. A. F. Allen, Alvord, Andrews, money or property to influence or as a compensa- Archer, Baker, Bararnard, Beadle, Beals, Beckwith, tion or reward for a vote given, or the withholding Bell, Bergen, Bickford, Bowen, E. Brooks, E. A. of a vote at such election, or for any other pur- Brown, W. C. Brown, Carpenter, Case, Champlain, pose, to promote his election to such office, except Cheritree, Chesebro, Clark, Clinton, Cochran, Cooke, for defraying the expenses of printing and circu- Daly, T. W. Dwight, Eddy, Endress, Farnum, lation of votes, handbills and other papers previous Ferry, Flagler, Folger, Fuller, Gerry, Goodrich, to such electiouA. or uromised. agreed or offeredto Gonld, Grant, Graves, Greeley, Hadley, Hale, 77 610 Hammond, Hand, Hitchcock, Houston, Hutchins, Which was ordered to be printed. Kerman, Ketcham, Kinney, Krum, Lapham, Law, Also, a oommunication from Richard B. ConA. Lawrence, M. H. Lawrence, Lee, Ludington, nolly, Comptroller of the city of New York, in reMattice, McDonald, Miller, Monell, Nelson, Paige, sponse to a communication of the Convention Potter, Prindle, Reynolds, Rogers, Rolfe, Root, asking for information in reference to contribuRumsey, Schell, Schoonmaker, Seymour, Sheldon, tions made to religious institutions of the city of Sherman, Smith, Spencer, Stratton, Tappen, M. I. New York. Townsend, S. Townsend, Van Campen, Van Cott, Mr. DEVELIN - What will be the 'reference Verplanck, Wakeman, Wales, Wickham, Wil-of that communication? liams-88. The PRESIDENT pro term.-The Chair knows Noes-Conger, Develin, Hitchman, Merrill, Rob- of no other committee except the Committee on ertson, L. W. Russell-6. Cities. Mr. CONGER - I move a reconsideration of Mr. DEVELIN- I move that it be referred to the vote by which the latter clause of the section the Committee on the Powers and Duties of the of the Constitution, as proposed by the gentleman Legislature. from Albany [Mr. Cassidy], was stricken out. The PRESIDENT pro tern. - It will take that The PRESIDENT pro tem.-The motion will reference if there be no objection. lie on the table under the rule. The PRESIDENT pro ter. also announced the The question was then put on the section, as reception of a communication from Hon. Thomas amended, and it was declared adopted. Hillhouse, Comptroller, in response to a resolution Mr. MILLER - I move a reconsideration of of the 28th of June, calling for information in the vote by which the words "or make any respect to donations made by the State to charipromise to influence "' were inserted in the sixth table and religious institutions. line of the second section. Which was ordered to be printed. Mr. BELL-I move that the Convention do now Mr. RUMSEY - I move that the article we adjourn. have adopted, as it now stands, be printed for the Mr. LAPHAM -I wish to move a reconsider- use of the Convention in the morning. ation of the vote by which the present order of The question was put on the motion of Mr. business was made the special order of busi- Rumsey, and it was declared carried. ness after the reading of the Journal. Mr. BICKFORD - I move to amend by includThe motion was ordered to lie on the table ing also the amendment offered by the gentleman under the rule. from Schenectady [Mr. Paige]. The question was then put on the motion of The question was put on the amendment of Mr. Bell to adjourn, and it was declared lost. Mr Bickford, and it was declared lost. Mr. PAIGE - I offer the amendment, which was Mr. VERPLANCK - I move that the Convenread a few minutes since, as section 7 of tion do now adjourn. this article. I wish to make a single remark. The question was put on the motion of Mr. Gentlemen hare expressed a desire to Verplanck, and it was declared carried. provide a remedy against bribery and So the Convention stood adjourned. corruption at elections. In my judgment there ---- are two effective remedies: one is the challenge at WEDNESDAY, July 31, 1867. the polls of the voter, and the other is requiring The Convention met at 11 o'clock A. M. an oath from the successful candidate, and the The PRESIDENT pro tern. [Mr. FOLGER] in amendment I have proposed provides the remedy the Chair. of the oath of the successful candidate. Prayer was offered by the Rev. HENRY Mr. BOWEN- I offer the following as a sub- DARLING. stitute for the amendment proposed by the gen- The Journal of yesterday was read by the tieman from Schenectady [Mr. Paige]: SECRETARY and approved. " And that I have not given or promised to give Mr. GRAVES- I ask leave of the Convention any money or other valuable thing for any vote or to present a resolution. the withholding of any vote at the election at The PRESIDENT pro tern.- That can only be which I was chosen." done by unanimous consent. There being no Mr. E. BROOKS- I renew the motion to ad- objection the resolution will be entertained. journ, but will withdraw it in order that the Presi- The SECRETARY proceeded to read the resodent may lay any motion he wishes before the lution as follows: Convention. Resolved, That the use of this Hall be granted The PRESIDENT pro tern. announced the re- to the Rev. Dr. Fisher, of Utica, and others, on ception of a communication from the Governor, the evening of the 8th of August next, to allow dated July 29th, 1867, in response to a resolution them the opportunity of addressing the Commitof the Convention, dated June 27th, 1867, calling tee on the Adulteration or Sale of Intoxicating for information in respect to the subject of pardons Liquors. granted by the Governor. The question was put on the resolution of Mr. Which was referred to the Committee on the Graves, and it was declared adopted. Pardoning Power, and ordered to be printed. Mr. LAPHAM -I ask the unanimous consent Also, a communication from Luther Caldwell, of the Convention to introduce the following Clerk of the House of Assembly, in response to a resolution: resolution of the Convention, calling for the titles The SECRETARY proceeded to read the resoof bills in regard to corporations, municipal and lution: otherwise. Resolved, That the Committee on Canals be, and 611 they are hereby authorized to send for persons purchasing votes. The proposition that I had the and papers, and to inquire into the cost of build- honor to present, for which this is a substitute ing enlarged loc.is out of the present structures, provides, in the first place, that the candidate with the capacity of the present locks to do the must take an oath that he has not paid or business of the canals, and of the present prism advanced any money for the purpose of influor channel of the canals to do the business with encing, or as a compensation or reward such enlarged locks, for a vote to be given, or the withMr. CONGER-I object. holding of a vote at the election. ol for The PRESIDENT pro tern. - Objection being the purpose of promoting his election, and on the made, the resolution cannot be entertained. omission to take such oath, the result shall be Mr. HAND-Some gentleman introduced yes- that his election shall be void. Then, sir, to terday a motion that we change the order of busi- guard against the evasion, by allowing him to ness and not make the report of the Committee on advance money to pay expenses for printing, and the Right of Suffrage the first business, so that the circulation of tickets, and distributing papers we may call up resolutions and other business. I and hand-bills, it requires that he shall state move, therefore, to call that motion from the specifically the sums of money paid, the objects table. for which they were paid, and the persons to The PRESIDENT pro tem.-The motion yester- whom paid. The latter part of the proposition day was to reconsider the vote by which the re- applies to a case where the candidate after he has port of the standing committee was made the been elected pays money to other persons, who special order. On the 24th day of July the con- have paid or advanced money for the purposes vention adopted the following rule: mentioned in the first part of the section; Resolved, That the report of the standing Com- and in case he should be convicted of so mittee on the Right of Suffrage and the Qualifica- doing, that he should also be disqualified from tions to Hold Office, and the report of the Commit- holding his office. These two provisions of this tee of the Whole upon the report of the said amendment may be divided into two secstanding committee, if undetermined at this sit- tions, and that relating to the oath may ting, shall be the special order for to-morrow stand by itself. Now in many districts in this morning immediately after the approval of the State, candidates are nominated with special Journal, and for every succeeding morning at the reference to their property, and to their willingsame time, until the report of the said standing ness to contribute money to promote their eleccommittee is disposed of in the Convention. tion, and it has occurred to me there are but two Mr. HAND-I call for the consideration of this effective remedies to purify the exercise of motion, because a good many days have elapsed, the elective franchise. One is the principle and much time has been spent in discussion. already adopted to make the sale or the purThe PRESIDENT pro tem.- Yesterday Mr. chase of a vote the ground of challenge Lapham moved to reconsider the vote by which at the election and to put the voter upon that resolution was adopted. his oath, to vindicate himself; the other is to Mr. HUTCHINS -I hope that resolution will put the candidate who is elected to office on not be reconsidered. I notice tLat the gentleman his oath that lie has not used money either to who offered the resolution yesterday has not purchase votes nor to promote his election, moved it. I understand that he did not mean to except for the specific purposes which are press it this morning while we were in this order named in this oath. I find, sir, that there is no of business. I, therefore, move to lay this reso- provision of law declaring that a, candidate is lution on the table. disqualified to lh~ld an office which he The question was put on the motion of Mr. obtains by bribery or corruption. There Hutchins, and it was declared carried. is no law punishing him for being Mr. CONGER -I desire to withdraw the objec- guilty of that offense. The statute in relation tion I introduced to the resolution of Mr. Lapham. to bribery seems to be confined exclusively The question was then put on the resolution of to bribery and corruption committed by the officer Mr. Lapham, and it was declared adopted. after he has taken possession of the office, and, Mr. PAIGE -I would like to inquire if the therefore, if the first section requiring this oath amendment offered by Mr. Bowen was offered as is adopted, it must be followed by another declara substitute for the one offered by me. ing him disqualified to hold an office who commits The PRESIDENT pro tern. - The Chair so un- bribery in obtaining his election. These two propderstands. ositions must go together, and if the first is Mr. PAIGE - That proposition seems to me to adopted the second must follow as a necessary be defective, at least in one respect. It does not result. This simple amendment would be entirely require an oath or statement of the candidate in my judgment ineffective. A candidate may that he has not advanced money or paid money very well and easily contribute large sums of to any person -to promote his election, except for money under the color of legal expenses, and still the purpose of defraying those legal expenses that himself not be a personal participator in its corare allowed by the Revised Statutes. An oath of rupt use in the election. It will, therefore, be a that character would be entirely ineffective to dead letter on the statute book and will not have remedy the evil of corruption or bribery at the the least influence whatever in preventing corrupelection. A candidate may contribute money. tion at the polls, or securing a person's election by under the color of paying legal expenses; that an illegitimate and corrupt use of money. money being deposited in the hands of other per- Mr. BURRILL - There are two propositions sons may be used for the illegitimate purpose of now before the Convention. I have no objection 612 myself to any clause which may embody the prin- frage, or for eligibility to office, shall ever be reciple contended for by the gentleman from Ni- quired. agara [Mr. Bowen], and also the principle embraced No person authorize i to vote under the existing in the proposition of the gentleman from Sche- Constitution, shall be disfranchised, nor shall the nectady [Mr. Paige]. The only objection I have to right of suffrage be abridged or extended. Prothe proposition of either of these gentlemen is vided, however, that laws shall be passed by the the form in which they have been presented. I first Legislature assembled after the adoption of think the proposition of the gentleman from this Constitution, excluding from the right to vote Schenectady [Mr. Paige], is too long to be incor- all persons who may pay or receive money or any porated in the fundamental law of the State. I other thing of value, or promise any consideration, would be very glad to have an opportunity of place or office with the view of securing or preoffering an amendment to carry out the propo- venting the election of any candidate for any fedsitions, both of the gentleman from Niagara [Mr. eral, State or local office, or who may be engaged Bowen], and the gentleman from Schenectady [Mr. in buying or selling votes, or in any way prePaige]. We have already, in the second section venting the purity of the ballot, or the freedom of of this proposed article, provisions covering elections. every case, and conferring upon the Legislature My object, Mr. President, in offering this resoluthe power of enacting laws to punish, by exclud- tion is, as. stated in its terms, to commit this report ing from suffrage, all persons convicted of bribery to the select committee of five gentlemen appointed and other crimes. I think we might gain our on Friday last, in order that it may perfect the object by inserting at the end of the sixth section phraseology of the several provisions which have an amendment, as follows: been considered in regard to the amendments that "And that I have not knowingly or intention- we have made, and in the belief that unless some ally violated the second section of this article, or such provision or amendment is adopted we shall any law passed in pursuance thereof." occupy a great deal more time before we come to And if the gentleman from Schenectady [Mr. any conclusion upon the subject under consideraPaige], also desires to have a disqualifying clause tion. he might add to that "any person who shall Mr. GOULD - I move to strike out the instrucrefuse to take the oath herein prescribed, or who tions to the committee. shall be convicted of having sworn falsely on The PRESIDENT pro ten. - The Chair is of taking such oath, shall forfeit his office." I think opinion that is all that gives it the right to be in that, you embody the principle contended for heard. That amendment is not in order. The here by both of these gentlemen, and in a manner Convention has gone through with the article in much more proper to be inserted in the fundamen- their amendments, and so far perfected it. tal law of the State. Mr. SHERMAN - I move a division of the The question was put on the amendment of question, so far as it is susceptible of a diviMr. Bowen, and it was declared lost. sion. Mr. BURRILL — I now offer my amendment Mr. SMITH- I hope that resolution will not as a substitute to the proposition of the gentleman prevail. This Convention has for the last fortfrom Schenectady [Mr. Paige]. night or three weeks been discussing very diliThe SECRETARY proceeded to read the gently the able report which was made by the amendment as follows: committee on this question. They have agreed Add at the end of section 6, the following: upon all the principles, as I understand, and we "And that I have not knowingly or intention- have reached the last section. Now, it I underally violated the second section of this article, or stand this proposition it is, that the article thus any law passed in pursuance thereof. Any perfected be committed to another committee to person who shall refuse to take the oath herein make another report; and when that report comes prescribed, or shall be convicted of having sworn in, for aught that now appears, we shall have to go falsely on taking such oath, shall forfeit his office." over the same ground again and discuss the question The question was put on the amendment of for the next fortnight or three weeks. It seems Mr. Burrill and it was declared adopted. to me that it had better be committed to that The question then recurred on the amendment committee for revision, with the powers desigof Mr. Paige as amended, and it was declared nated in the resolution appointing it. carried. Mr. E. BROOKS-I wish to say that I have no Mr. E. BROOKS - In the belief, Mr. President, objection to recommitting this report to the Conthat this Convention has occupied as much time mittee on Suffrage. as can be afforded in the general allotment of The PRESIDENT pro tem.-The Chair decides time for the consideration of other questions, I the gentleman to be out of order. move now the following resolution which I ask Mr. ALVORD-I rise to a point of order. We leave to read in my place: are under a special order; that special order is the Resolved, That the report now under considera- offering of amendments general in their tendency tion with all the provisions lying upon the table, to this proposition which is before us, and the relating to the same, be committed to the select gentleman from Richmond [Mr. Brooks] cannot committee appointed on the 27th day of July, offer a resolution under this order of business. with instructions to report to the Convention in He must wait until we come to resolutions before principle and substance, article 2, sec. 1, of the his motion or resolution can be allowable. Constitution of 1846, with the following amend- The PRESIDENT pro tern. - The Chair is of ments: the opinion that the point of order is not well No property qualification for the right of suf- taken, as it is a resolution referring to the pend 613 ing order of business. The resolution is in order as a resolution, to re-recommit. Mr. VAN CAMPEN - I rise to a point of order; the resolution proposes a separate submission which is a question that has been put over to a certain day, and therefore cannot be entertained. The PRESIDENTpro tenm.- If it is, it is not in order. Mr. E. BROOKS - It is only one part of it. If that is out of order I will strike out that part which suggests a separate division. Mr. VAN CAMPEN - Mr. President, I move to lay the resolution on the table, that it may come up in the order of resolutions. Mr. E. BROOKS-I submit it is not a resolution; it is a part of to-day's business and a part of the special order. The PRESIDENT pro tem. -The Chair is of the opinion that if that motion prevails, it will carry the whole report with it upon the table. Mr. LAPHAM-I rise to a question of order. The resolution as now read proposes to refer this entire subject to a committee, a special committee appointed for a particular purpose, which was simply to correct the phraseology of this article of the Constitution when the Convention had adopted it. Now, the resolution further proposes to instruct that committee to report an entire substitute for our action. I respectfully submit to the Chair that it is not proper thus to subvert the entire action of the body by sending to a committee appointed for that special purpose the subject of an entire revision of the article. The PRESIDENT pro ter. - The Chair is of the opinion that it is in the power.of the Convention to refer to a committee wit] instructions upon any subject, or to any commnifie. That may be one way in which the Convention may choose to dispose of this matter as provided in the resolution of July 24. The resolution, with instructions, in the opinion of the Chair, is in order. Mr. MERRILL- I move to amend the motion of the gentleman from Richmond [Mr. Brooks] by substituting therefor the following: The article as amended and adopted by the Convention, shall be referred to the Special Committee of Revision at the end of this day's session, with instructions to report in accordance with the terms of the resolution creating said committee. Mr. FERRY -I rise to inquire if amendments generally are not in order? The PRESIDENT pro tern. -Amendments generally, in the opinion of the Chair, are not known in this Convention. Mr. FERRY - I heard the President pro tern. announce, last evening, that amendments would be in order. The PRESIDENTpro tem.-The Chair was in error last evening, he corrected himself over night Mr. WEED- I understand the first three sections of this article have never been passed upon by the Convention; they were simply passed as sections ordinarily are, in legislative bodies for amendments generally, but not finally passed upon by a vote. The PRESIDENT pro tem. - The.Chair is of the opinion that it is not necessary in the Convention, as the sections are to go to the Committee of Revision, so to call it, and when that report comes in they are passed upon as a whole. Mr. FULLER - I desire to call up the motion to reconsider the amendment adopted to the second section. The PRESIDENTpro tem.-The motion is not now in order. There are two questions pending. Mr. FERRY — Did I understand the Chair to say that when that committee makes a report it will then be in order to offer an amendment. The PRESIDENT pro tem.-The Chair is of opinion that it will not, as amended. Mr. FERRY -I have an amendment I desire to offer. Mr. E. BROOKS —I desire to say in reply to the gentleman from Fulton [Mr. Smith], that it was not from any disrespect to the Committee on Suffrage that I moved this special reference to the committee of five, but because I believed it to be the purpose of the Convention, after a deliberate vote, that this article should take that direction. I desire to say that I make it with a sincere desire to facilitate the business of this body. There lies upon your table, sir, about twenty odd propositions to reconsider portions of amendments which have been adopted by the committee, and if they are to be voted upon by ayes and noes, in all probability it will take this or the following day to reach some conclusion. I believe we could arrive at a direct and early result in the form of the resolution which I have submitted if it should be adopted by the Convention. Mr. LAPHAM -A very easy mode of the disposition of this order of business would be to refer this article, as we have now perfected it with the amendments pending, to that committee. The difficulty with the proposition of the gentleman from Richmond [Mr. E. Brooks] is, that there is coupled with that reference, an instruction that the committee report back to this Convention, as the result of their action, the article of the present Constitution in lieu of the one which we have now perfected and substantially adopted. There is the difficulty in the proposition, and one which makes it extremely obnoxious to gentlemen who have been laboring for a fortnight or more to put this article in proper shape. The proposition is to throw this labor all away, take up the article of the Constitution as it now is, strike out the property qualification, and report that as the Constitution to be adopted by the vote of the Convention. Mr. SHERMAN - I move the following amendment to the resolution of the gentleman from Richmond [Mr. Brooks]. Strike out all after "Resolved " and insert: "The article under consideration, with the motions lying on the table relative thereto, shall be referred to the Committee on Revision, with instructions to report the article to the Convention revised as to language, but with no change of substantial provisions." Mr. FULLER —I wish to call the attention of the Convention to a clause of the second seqtion. As it stands now, if I understand the Chair, this comimittee of five would have no power to strike out, "all challenges shall be determined upon the 614 oath of the person challenged." We have no power may be partially completed in accordance with to strike that out, as I understand it. This propo- the law, and before it is finally completed it may sition was proposed- be destroyed. The PRESIDENT pro tem. - The gentleman Mr. ALVORD-What is the effect when mobs from Monroe [Mr. Fuller] misunderstands the destroy the ballot-boxes? Does that vitiate the Chair. The Chair has asserted no such proposi- election entirely? tion. Mr. CONGER-The action of a mob is not in Mr. FULLER -If I understand the resolution accordance with law, but this act would be in acof the gentleman from Oneida [Mr. Sherman] cor- cordance with the Constitution. rectly, this committee of five would have no Mr. ALVORD-Stealing the register in accorpower to strike out that provision. This is a pro- dance with the Constitution? vision which was voted down as an amendment Mr. CONGER-Under such a provision of law in the fourth section several times, yesterday, as this, unquestionably. and it would cut off the principal benefit of the Mr. A. J. PARKER-There is certainly someregistry law if adopted. I made a motion on thing in this. I hopeFriday to reconsider the vote by which that was The PRESIDENT pro tem.-Is the gentleman adopted which will be cut off, as I understand it, speaking against the amendment? if the resolution of the gentleman from Oneida Mr. A. J. PARKER-I am speaking in favor prevails, and that will remain in the Constitution of modifying the proposition. as one of its provisions. The PRESIDENT pro tem.-Two have already Mr. CONGER-The. effect of the resolution spoken in opposition to it. offered by the gentleman from Oneida [Mr. Sher- Mr. A. J. PARKER-I wish to have it modified. man], will be effectually to prevent this body from Suppose a registrar refused to register, is that to correcting two great inadvertencies in the action deprive all the people of the district of the right of yesterday. The final clause of section four, if to vote? adopted by the committee without anything but The PRESIDENT pro tem.-That is not under verbal alterations, would secure in the future elec- discussion. tions in this State far worse and more mischievous Mr. MERRILL-If it is in my power I would results than have ever adhered to our elections accept the amendment of the gentleman from from any system of ballot stuffing, or any other Oneida [Mr. Sherman]. of the practices which have rendered elections in The PRESIDENT pro ter.-The gentleman is certain districts of the State obnoxious to public at liberty t6 accept the amendment. censure. Now, sir, we have this clause, that no Mr. MERRILL-Then I accept the amendment person shall vote at any such election who shall of the gentleman from Oneida. not have been registered according to law. So Mr. LAPHAM-I hope the amendment of the that it is possible in any district for persons to gentleman from Oneida [Mr. Sherman]. which has concert a particular purpose in the election to been accetol by the gentleman from Wyoming, destroy the register before it is perfected, and will be read. I enter as heartily as any member make it impossible to have a new register com- of this convention can in the purpose expressed pleted within six days, yet the law is imperative by the gentleman from Richmond [Mr. E. Brooks]. that no person shall vote at that election in that He calls this a useless discussion, and places this district. So we promote by this provision a subject, which we have debated so long, in the wholesale system of fraud, violence and oppres- hands of a committee where the sections can be sion to be enacted at any poll where persons are put in proper shape for the final act. I take it willing to concert such practices. Then again in that the proposition, as avowed by the mover, the last clause of section 6, the Convention originated in a sincere motive to accomplish this created a security the same as in the last clause result, and the adoption of this amendment effects of article 12 of the Constitution of 1846 precisely that end. It simply takes out of the proposition the same as that secured to the people of State in of the gentleman from Richmond [Mr. E. Brooks] the Constitution of 1821 against all other oaths, the instructions there contained, to report entirely declarations or tests. This is taken away from the adverse to our action. That instruction, I subpeople of this State. Now, before the Convention mit, is useless and derogatory to the action which are willing to commit two wrongs of this charac- we have thus far taken upon the article under ter I hope gentlemen on the other side will have consideration. For that reason the reference the magnanimity to state whether they really in- which will prevail, if the amendment of the gentend that one such abnormal provision as the tleman from Oneida [Mr. Sherman], is adoptfirst shall be inserted, and such a time-honored ed, will dispose of this subject, and the Consecurity of the liberty of the citizen be omitted vention can take up some other branch of from the Constitution of the State. business, and there will be no further occaMr. C. C. DWIGHT -Would the carrying off sion for a clamor on the part of any public or destruction of the register by a mob destroy journal that the majority of this Convention the fact that a man had been registered. are delaying the discussions upon this subject for Mr. CONGER-But suppose some persons had partisan or other purposes, and that the responsinot been registered? bility for delay lies at the door of the majority of Mr. DWIGHT-They would not be entitled to this body. I desire that all occasions for articles a vote, even though the register was not destroyed. of that description, and clamors of that descrip. Mt. CONGER-The gentleman does not take tion may be taken away-and this reference will the point. He is unable to see the difficulty which put an end to that subject. There are many this section makes possible-that the registry other reasons which might be mentioned, one of 615 which I will mention, is the importance of the remaining business to be disposed of by the Convention. I agree with the gentleman from Richmond that we have already devoted to the consideration of this subject more of the time of the Convention than justly belongs to its importance. As to where the responsibility for that rests I leave that subject to be determined at another time and another place than this. Mr. McDONALD -I would like to ask for information, whether, if this resolution passes, and it goes to this committee, there will be any opportunity hereafter of amending this article of the Constitution. The PRESIDENT pro tem.-The Chair is of opinion that there will.. Mr. McDONALD -On the coming in of the report - The PRESIDENT pro ter. - The Chair cannot instruct the gentleman any further until the report arrives. Mr. POND - It seems to me that this resolution is not right. The PRESIDENT pro tem.-The gentleman has already spoken to that effect. Mr. POND - I have spoken for it. The PRESIDENT pro tern. - Two have already spoken in favor of the resolution. Mir. POND - I move to amend then. The PRESIDENT pro tern. - The gentleman is in order by moving to amend. Mr. POND -I move to strike out the clause sending the amendment to this committee. It was said when this committee was appointed they were a committee of revision, and this report was to be sent to them after it was completed in this Convention; they were merely to revise and put it in proper form. The result of this amendment, if I understand the proposition of the gentleman from Oneida [Mr. Sherman], will, in effect, be sending this whole subject to this committee, which will constitute them a new committee on the right of suffrage and when their report comes in we will be just where we were four weeks ago. I move to strike out that part of the resolution sending the amendments to the committee. The PRESIDENT pro tern. -- The Chair is of opinion that that is tantamount to striking out the resolution. Mr. POND- The resolution then will be as I understood was originally contemplated? The PRESIDENT pro tern.- The gentleman's motion is not in order, inasmuch as it is tantamount to a negative of the resolution. Mr. SEYMOUR-I wish to make an inquiry of the Chair. There are some twenty questions on reconsideration pending. I ask the Chair, if this motion prevails, whether, if these are lost, we will have a chance to reconsider? The PRESIDENT pro ter. - The Chair is of opinion that they would be lost, inasmuch as the Convention will have disposed of the report of the Committee for the present. Mr. RUMSEY-I move to amend the motion of the gentleman from Wyoming [Mr. Merrill] as amended, by prefixing thereto the words, "at two o'clock P. i. this day unless otherwise disposed of." Mr. SHERMAN - I accept that amendment. Mr. ALVORD - I am in favor of this proposition, and for the purpose of calming the minds of gentlemenMr. KERNAN -I rise to a point of orderthat two gentlemen have spoken on that side. The PRESIDENT pro tem.-The gentleman from Onondaga is in order. Mr. ALVORD - I stated I was in favor of this resolution now as amended, provided it passes; and I desire to state to gentlemen here who were a little afraid of its effects upon theirMr. FERRY-I rise to a point of order. The amendment was accepted by the gentleman from Oneida [Mr. Sherman] when the resolution was that of the gentleman from Wyoming [Mr. Merrill]. He had accepted the previous amendment and it would be for him to accept the other amendment. It was not in the power of the gentleman from Oneida [Mr. Sherman] to accept it. The PRESIDENT pro tem.-The Chair did not recognize it as accepted. He recognized it as the amendment made by the gentleman from Steuben [Mr. Rumsey]. Mr. ALVORD-I hope I shall be able to get through with my remarks. If any gentlemen desire to rise on other questions, I will wait until they get through. The PRESIDENT pro ten. —The gentleman from Onondaga [Mr. Alvord] will proceed in order. Mr. ALVORD —I wish to say that on the incoming of the report of the committee, and at almost any stage of the proceedings of this Convention, motions can be made to recommit, with instructions to put in direct matter which the reconsideration now contemplated to put in the article, or take from it. There is no difficulty in reaching this case at any or every time during the proceedings of the Convention under its rules. It can immediately, upon the incoming of the report of the select committee of five, or the Committee on the Right of Suffrage, be sent back again to the same committee with instructions, and as suggested bythe gentleman from Monroe [Mr. Fuller], we can get at the motions to reconsider, made by various gentlemen on this floor. It simply takes it out, for the present, of the body of this Convention, and permits us to go through with some other business. Mr. MERRILL - The idea I had in mind when I offered my amendment in the first instance, was to give this day to enable the Convention to perfect the article as agreed upon and adopted by the Convention. I accepted the amendment of the gentleman from Oneida [Mr. Sherman], which provides for an immediate disposition of the whole matter, because I have become convinced, we should not improve the article by further amendments. If in order, I will accept the amendment fixing the hour at two o'clock. The PRESIDENT pro tern. - It is in order. Mr. GREELEY - If the gentleman from Onondaga [Mr. Alvord], is correct, I must oppose this whole proposition as now amended, and ask that the Convention vote it down. If it is not to be settled on. but to be opened again when the report comes in, then we have adopted nothing and settled nothing. and we had better go on now till we complete it. Mr. ALVORD -Will the gentleman allow me 616 to ask him a question? Have we not now the rule that at any time during the whole of this Convention, a motion to reconsider can be placed on the table, and the question of reconsidering can be brought up after three days with reference to any of our proceedings? How can we avoid it by any possibility, without going to work and reconstructing our rules? Mr. GREELEY- I cannot answer the gentleman's question about rules, but I see plainly this is to end in nothing. I am willing to go on voting to-day till we decide on something, but if you are going to refer this to a committee and have it brought back again-I desire to say I hope you will not refer it to the Suffrage Committee, and I see no good in referring it all. Mr. OPDYKE —I hope the resolution as amended will prevail. I agree with the gentleman from Onondaga [Mr. Alvord] that it is parliamentary and also that it is proper that if we have committed any serious errors, and shall hereafter discover them that we shall have an opportunity of correcting them-not by renewing and prolonging the debate, but by taking the question immediately thereon as we shall be prepared to do, and as we shall be compelled to do. As the session draws to its close,we shall probably have a change of our rules to expedite time. It has became evident to every member of this Convention that something must be done hereafter to divide the time more effectually between the various propositions that come before us, or the result of our labors will be lost -we will be unable to complete them in time to submit them to the people; some of the most important amendments we contemplate considering will have to go without consideration. It seems to me, the resolution now before us is the best, for saving time, of any that has been presented. Mr. E. BROOKS-I offered my resolution with a sincere desire to facilitate the business of this body, but, as it has failed of that purpose, for the present I withdraw it. Mr. MERRITT-I rise to a point of order. The resolution having been amended, I think the mover cannot withdraw it. The PRESIDENT pro tem.-Tho Chair holds it is in order for the gentleman to withdraw it. Mr. FULLER-I desire to call up my motion to reconsider the vote by which the amendment of the gentleman from Ontario [Mr. Lapham] was adopted. The effect of that amendment was substantially to nullify the registry laws as they now stand, and the registry laws as continued with the same force since 1861. As the registry law now stands, before a person who is challenged upon the ground that he is not a citizen before the registry board, he must produce his naturalization papers. This amendment, if carried, would nullify any such provision. It was proposed to add a similar amendment several times yesterday at the end of the fourth section, and it was voted down by this Convention, and on Friday the Convention seemed to overlook the fact that it was adopted as an amendment to the second section. By the Revised Statutes also, or by the election laws of 1842, it is provided, that if any person is challenged on the ground that he has been convicted of an infamous crime, the record of the conviction shall be produced; so if he has been pardoned, the proof is the production of the pardon. But the effect of this amendment is to cut off all other proof and in all cases to make the right of the person challenged to depend on his own oath. I think the amendment should be reconsidered and voted down. Mr. MASTEN- I hope this will not be reconsidered. I think the gentleman from Monroe [Mr. Fuller] labors under a misapprehension as to its effect. It does not apply to the case of registering, but rather applies to the proceedings which are to take place at the election, and before the inspectors of election. Now, sir, I am opposed to constituting the inspectors of election into a judicial tribunal to determine any of the questions which may arise there. I am in favor of the provision that it shall be determined upon the oath of the party who offers his vote. It is the simplest way of doing it, and it puts the whole responsibility upon him. Now, take the case of a man convicted of a crime. A party may have been convicted of an offense which disqualifies him. The record may not be there, and if the rule which the gentleman declares is the rule should prevail, why then the person who offers his vote would not be compelled to speak of the fact whether or not he was disqualified before he could demand the proof and his vote would be cast. If this amendment of the gentleman from Ontario [Mr. Fuller] remains (for I believe it was proposed by him), then the question can be propounded to the person who offers his vote. If he has been pardoned, that question he can also speak to. I hope this will be retained because it applies only to what is to take place at the election, not as to the registry at all, and it avoids the constituting of an irresponsible temporary tribunal, and puts the whole responsibility upon the person, and he can easily be punished if he commits perjury in getting in his vote. Mr. E. A. BROWN -I hope the reconsideration will prevail, and I hope so for the reason that the effect of striking out this provision will be to protect the person who is challenged at the polls. It is in the recollection of every gentleman, I presume, within the sound of my voice, that men have been challenged at the polls and asked questions they were unable fully and definitely to answer; unable to state when and where precisely they were naturalized; unable to state some of the facts from memory; and under this provision as it reads, they could not bring to their aid the Revised Statutes; they could not bring to their aid their certificate of naturalization, nor could they bring to their aid their pardon from the Governor, nor any other thing except their naked memory. These people should have this privilege; should be able to back up their application to vote by such evidence as they may have at hand for that purpose, such as may contribute to strengthen their recollection, otherwise a man might be embarrassed when he is asked the usual questions, and might be unable to recollect distinctly, or to answer the questions * which the board think lie ought to answer correctly, and they may refuse his-vote. For his protection he should be allowed to bring to his 617 aid any fact, papers or documents within his reach Robertson, Rolfe, A. D. Russell, Schell, Schoonto substantiate his right to vote. As this stands, maker, Schumaker, Seymour, Strong, Tappen, S. he could not bring to his aid any special statute Townsend, Veeder, Verplanck, Weed, Wickham, that might be passed for his benefit, nor could he Young-51. bring his discharge from the army which author- Mr. HALE-I shall vote in favor of inserting izes a certain class of men to be naturalized, these words, and I voted against the reconsidthough they had been in the country but for a eration on this ground. It strikes me that the single year; he might prove he was born in Ger- last words in the fourth section render the amendmany, and might have been in the United States for ment of the gentleman from Ontario [Mr. Chesebut one year, and as the law once stood he could bro] eminently proper. No person should vote not be naturalized. He might plead his discharge at any such election that has not been registered from the army to show under the laws of the according to law. If there is any object in the United States he was in a condition to be natural- registry law it is to determine who are the legal ized, otherwise he might be defrauded of his vote voters, and I would confine the duty of the inspecby not being able to bring to his aid such evi- tors of election to hear and determine on the oath dence as I have alluded to. of persons challenged, and not constitute them a Mr. CHESEBRO - I do not understand the judicial tribunal at that time to receive evidence argument of the gentleman from Lewis [Mr. E. in regard to it. The officers who take the registry A. Brown], and I am opposed to striking out this are the ones who should make the judicial examprovision which has been once inserted by the ination and require evidence other than the oath voice of the Convention. As I understand his of the party. argument, it is in aid of the person challenged Mr. FULLER-As the law stands now, the that he desires to have this privilege stricken out. same challenge precisely may be made before the I inquire whether, if the man is challenged at registry board as cn be made at the polls. They the polls, whether any evidence he can pro- are made precisely in the same manner, and the duce there will save him the necessity of taking law provides how they shall be determined, and the oath, provided the challenge continues, as it there is a necessity that challenges shall be made will not aid him that he has a discharge from the and determined by the registry board as well as army of the United States, or a pardon from at the polls, and if challenges are made there, the the Governor, or any other fact which might Legislature should have the power to provide how show that he is a legal voter, provided always those challenges should be determined. But if the challenge stands. That' is why the chal- this amendment remains in force, upon a challenge should depend upon the oath of the person lenge before the registering board on the ground challenged, and that being the only answer the that a person was not a citizen. the Legislature gentleman makes to the argument of the gentle- could not compel him to produce his naturalizaman from Erie [Mr. Masten], it is unnecessary tion papers. The challenge would have to be dethat I should detain the Convention any further. termined on his oath alone, so that if a man was The PRESIDENT pro ter. announced the ques- challenged on the ground that he was convicted tion to be on the motion of Mr. Fuller to reconsider, of a crime, although he was convicted of a crime, Mr. BICKFORD - I call for the ayes and noes. and was unworthy of credit on that account, the A sufficient number seconding the call, the only test of his right to vote would be his own ayes and noes were ordered. oath, and you could not require the production of The question was then put on the motion of the record. Mr. Fuller, and it was declared carried by the Mr. EVARTS - I voted for the reconsideration, following vote: but I do not see my way clear to reject entirely Ayes - Messrs. A. F. Allen, C. L. Allen, Alvord, this protection of the right of suffrage. Our genAndrews, Archer, Armstrong, Axtell, Baker, Bal- eral rule, Mr. President, as we all know, in the lard, Barker, Beadle, Beals, Beckwith, Bell, Bick- administration of law here is to punish the comford, E. A. Brown, W. C. Brown, Carpenter, Case, mission of crime, and not to prevent its comCheritree, Cooke, Corbett, C. C. Dwight, T. W. mission by restrictions aimed at that object. Now Dwight, Eddy, Endress, Evarts, Farnum, Ferry, unquestionably it is incongruous that we should Flagler, Folger, Fowler, Fuller, Gould, Graves, allow the oath of the elector when he is chalGreeley, Hadley, Hammond, Hand, Harris, Hitch- lenged, to displace a record of conviction, and it cock, Houston, Huntington, Ketcham, Kinney, is that incongruity I imagine that has led most of Krum, Landon, Lapham, A. Lawrence, M. H. those who have voted to exclude this clause from Lawrence, Lee, Ludington, McDonald, Merrill, the Constitution. I believe that in general the Merritt, Merwin, Miller, Opdyke, C. E. Parker, adjudication of the right to vote to the exclusion Pond, Prindle, Presser, Rathbun, Reynolds, Root, of the vote, should not be entrusted to any board Rumsey, L. W. Russell, Seaver, Sheldon, Sherman, whatever, but that the right to vote when depenSmith, Spencer, Stratton, M. I. Townsend, Van dent upon the inquisition, then for the first time Campen, Van Cott, Wakeman, Wales, Williams made, and not previouslybefore decided in respect -79. to the cause of challenge, should be determined in Noes - Messrs. Barnard, Barto, Bergen, E. favor of the vote upon the oath of the elector Brooks, Burrill, Cassidy, Champlain, Chesebro, leaving him to be punished for giving a spurious Church, Clinton, Cochran, Collahan, Comstock, vote, not being entitled thereto,.and guarding the Conger, Corning, Develin, Fullerton, Garvin, Gerry, ballot-box by that security. I move, therefore, Hale, Hardenburgh, Hitchman, Kernan, Law, Liv- this amendment to the section - ingstou, Loew, Lowrey, Magee, Masten, Mattice, The PRESIDENT pro tern.- No amendment Is Monell, More, Morris, Paige, A. J. Parker, Potteo, now in order. 78 618 Mr. EVARTS -I would suggest, then, that in lieu of including this rigid requirement that all challenges shall be determined upon the oath of the person challenged, a clause of this kind would meet the principles contended for on both sides, to wit: "All challenges, except for cause of conviction for crime, shall be determined upon the oath of the person challenged." Mr. CHESEBRO-If it is in my power to accept that amendment I would be willing to do so. The PRESIDENT -pro tern. -It is rather an anomalous and awkward position in which the Chair finds itself in the consideration of an amendment which was adopted two or three days ago, and now comes up to be reconsidered, after much else has been discusseed and settled and that is the reason the Chair said it was not in order to amend. The article has almost passed out of the hands of the Convention, but is still under its order, having been substantially adopted by the Convention. Now, we are going back to pick up these motions to reconsider, which have been dropped along through the debate. It seemed to the Chair proper, although it is a new question, that when the motion to reconsider is adopted, the consideration of the amendment should be confined to the identical, strict proposition contained in the amendment which was adopted or lost, therefore the Chair ruled, when the gentleman from New York [Mr. Evarts], was about to offer an amendment, that amendments were not in order. It may be that the Chair is wrong in that, but that is his present opinion, but it is an anomalous position in which we stand in regard to this motion to reconsider, under the peculiar rule we have for reconsideration of votes. The Chair has never known it to be adopted in a parliamentary body before. Mr. DEVELIN-I would respectfully submit to the President and to the Convention, that when this amendment is reconsidered it stands in the same position it did when it was originally offered. I cannot see any difference; and, if that be so, the mover of the amendment can accept any amendment proposed to it, although the amendment was not in order for discussion or consideration by the Convention. The PRESIDENT pro temn.-The Chair will take the sense of the Convention upon the question of the adoption of the amendment. Mr. E. BROOKS-Upon the point of order which has been suggested by the Chair, I suggest and maintain that we are under the operation of parliamentary law, and that we are precisely where we were when this amendment was submitted by the gentleman from Ontario [Mr. Lapham], and having receded to that point, it is as much in order to move an amendment now as it was before the amendment was adopted. Mr. GREELEY-I shall oppose this amendment in any lorm, but I submit to my friend, who also opposed it, that we allow, by the unanimous consent of the Convention, the friends of the amendment to amend it as they choose. Mr. GARVIN -Does the gentleman mean by that to allow all amendments? Mr. GREELEY —No, only this amendment. I shall oppose the amendment on this ground, Mr. President: A man comes up to vote, and we have a hundred names on the poll list, where there are no voters. Here is John Wilcox comes to vote. Well, ten of us know he is not John Wilcox; we know he is not that man that is on the registry, notwithstanding he says he can swear he is. He swears through and votes, and that point is not covered by this amendment, and I shall vote against it. I hope those opposed to it will allow the friends of the amendment to perfect it by the amendment they propose. The PRESIDENT pro ten.-The Chair would prefer that some gentleman take an appeal from his ruling, so as to settle this question. Mr. DEVELIN —In accordance with the suggestion of the Chair, I appeal from the decision of the Chair. The PRESIDENT pro tern.-The Chair so understands the gentleman. Mr. DEVELIN - And I appeal for this reason, that it is an unsettled point, and it is very important that it should be settled by the Convention, because this question will be arising almost every day; but I should suggest, if it is decided that no amendment can be made, it will be a cause of difficulty when amendments are considered and cannot be amended, although the Convention may desire the amendment to be made. The question was then put on sustaining the decision of the Chair, and it was declared carried. Mr. CONGER- I call for the count. Mr. GREELEY —I hope, by unanimous con. sent, this amendment will be allowed. Mr. EVARTS -I think I am mow in order to move an amendment. The PRESIDENT pro ten. -The Chair rules "no." The question put by the Chair was: "Shall the decision of the Chair stand as the decision of the Convention?" and that was sustained. Mr. CONGER - Before the Chair announced that the decision of the Chair was sustained, I called for a count. The question was then put on sustaining the decision of the Chair, and, on a division, it was declared not sustained by a vote 53 to 60. Mr. DEVELIN -I desire to have it inserted on the minutes that I made this appeal under the suggestion of the President. The PRESIDENT pro tern. -It will be so entered. Mr. CHESEBRO -I now desire to say I will accept the amendment of the gentleman from New York [Mr. Evarts]. Mr. EVARTS -I have not yet made the amendment. The PRESIDENT pro ter. - I have not heard any amendment offered. Mr. EVARTS -I now rise to make an amendment, if it is in order. I move to insert after the word " challenges" in the clause proposed to be inserted into the Constitution "all challenges except for conviction for crime, and for omission to register, shall be determined upon the oath of the person.challenged." Mr. M. I. TOWNSEND-I would ask the gentleman from New York [Mr. Evarts] if he would not add to his amendment the words "all challenges at the polls." There is some difficulty felt in the Convention, that this may be made to apply 619 to the challenge of a man's right to register. I Legislature will then determine what is the best only understood the mover to desire to have it evidence at either or both places. apply to challenges at the polls. Mr. HITCHCOCK- Is another amendment Mr. EVARTS-I desire to have my amendment now in order? apply to all objections of voting that are, for the The PRESIDENT pro ten. - It is in order. first time, to be judicially determined. I under- Mr. HITCHCOCK- I offer the following stand the clause of the Constitution as already ac- amendment: cepted to provide for registration, and I propose, Insert after the word " challenges," the words therefore, that that should stand as a criterion of " at the polls." the right to vote in that respect, and not the elec- Mr. EVARTS - I accept this proposition for tor's oath. So, too, for the commission of crime. this reason alone, that I think the whole subject I propose that the record of the crime should of registration may be more safely left to the stand to exclude the vote, notwithstanding the Legislature than these matters that we are now oaths of the electors. But I know of no other disposing of. ground of objection to an elector, which upon The PRESIDENT pro ter. — It is not in the challenge, should not in taking the vote be dis- power of the gentleman from New York [Mr. posed of in his favor, upon his oath, leaving him Evarts] to accept the amendment. It is an to the punishment prescribed by law for giving a amendment to the proposition of the gentleman false or spurious vote. Now, if my friend from from Ontario [Mr. Chesebro]. Rensselaer [Mr. M. I. Townsend] will point out to Mr. CONGER- I will present very briefly to me, and to this Convention, any cases in respect the Convention, the reason why any challenge to registration which may need some further allowed before the board of registry, would opemodification, I perhaps would be ready to give my rate very severely on a certain class of citizens assent to it. who have not been adverted to in this discussion. Mr. M. I. TOWNSEND-The gentleman from The gentleman from Monroe [Mr. Fuller], who first New York [Mr. Evarts] did not understand me I spoke on this question, seemed to think it was a do not desire to have it apply to registration. I matter of great importance, that every naturalized desire to have it apply simply to challenges at the citizen should produce his certificate of naturalizapolls. The word " challenge " in the statute affect- tion, and if he had lost it, or could not recur to the ing registration is used in reference to objection time or the court in which he was naturalized, made at the time of registration, and it was for and could not readily obtain a copy of that certifithe purpose of confining this to challenge at the cate, that would render it a ground of challenge polls that I desired the words added at the close by which he should be refused registry as well as of the amendment of the gentleman from New voting. Now, Mr. President, under the ConstituYork [Mr. Evarts]. tion of the United States, as proposed to be Mr. BARNARD -I wish to suggest that what amended, we have got two classes of citizens, has been stated by the gentleman from Rensselaer native-born citizens and naturalized citizens. If [Mr. M. I. Townsend] is perfectly correct. that at you allow this question to be opened I want to the polls we should not be delayed, by inquiring know when my honorable friend from Monroe into the right of voting, because if we do not [Mr. Fuller] comes to be challenged, and he is take simply the oath of the voter, the person chal- challenged on the ground that he is not a nativelenging may say, "I have got a dozen witnesses born citizen of the State of New York, or of the to prove that the man is not a resident of this United States, whether he is to be called upon to district;" and he will bring forward witness after produce a copy of the baptismal register to show witness who may give testimony on that subject, where he was born and whether he is truly a and the person challenged may find it necessary citizen of the State of New York. The moment not only to put in his own oath, but to call you adopt a rule in the one case you will make others to prove he is a voter in the district, it applicable to the other, and the attempt to and the inspector may be a whole day taking embarrass the naturalized citizen in regard to the proof whether one voter resides in the district, certificate of his naturalization will apply to the and thus all other voters are excluded from native-born citizen in order to oblige him to prove voting. that he is a native born citizen. You perceive Mr. McDONALD - I am opposed to any amend- that if you limit this to the amendment proposed, ment, for the simple reason that we are now ven- if you limit the power of a citizen to determine a turing on legislation again. We are now deter- challenge of this kind on his oath at the polls, you mining what proof we shall have, and seeing subject him to the very greatest inconvenience whether we shall determine to have the proof at when he comes to be registered, and an emthe polls, or at the registry, or at this place or barrassment of this kind at the registry office that. It seems to me we have got to leave a lit- might work as great a detriment as a chaltle something for the Legislature to do, and if we lenge at the polls. I think, therefore, that we leave to them, as we proposed to do, to say what ought to have the general provision by which shall be the evidence used at the registry, we every citizen could purge a challenge on his own might as well leave to them to say what evidence oath. shall be used at the polls, or leave it as it is in the Mr. LAPHAM-I am opposed, Mr. President, Constitution; and the argument of the gentleman to the amendment as well as to the original propfrom Kings [Mr. Barnard], and the argument of osition, upon this ground, that we are again enterthe gentleman from Rensselaer [Mr. M. I. Town- ing upon the field of legislation. This whole subsend], and all the arguments used here, will be ject is properly a matter which should be regulated very proper at that time, and I doubt not, the by legislative action, and it cannot be made with 620 any propriety the subject of a provision in the circumstances wherein it may be that the student Constitution. I respectfully submit to the con- goes to the other town to reside, and sideration of the honorable gentleman from New may be he does not; we ask you York [Mr. Evarts], that it is better to leave this to let the facts govern the case; let the authoriwhole subject to the control and direction of the ties, when they come to register a voter, decide Legislature in reference to the laws which may be whether the voter is a resident of a certain townenacted for the purpose of providing for registra- ship or not, and not arbitrarily say that when a tion of voters, and providing for the conduct of man has gone to Auburn or Geneva or some other electors at the polls. There is no necessity for town to be a student it disqualifies him from being undertaking in the fundamental law to make a pro- a voter for four years by that fact. I ask this vision which cannot be changed as long as the Con- Convention not to decide that question against the stitution lasts, although experience may show that facts, as you must do. Let the student like the changes from to time are not only desirable but day laborer and the mechanic and the professor absolutely necessary to preserve the purity of the and the clergyman, stand on one foundation. If elective franchise. The Legislature can, from he has changed his residence, then he has a right time to time, adapt the laws to the necessity of to vote in the place to which he has removed. If the times by the experience which shall grow up he has not changed his residence, he has not the in the administration of affairs under the Consti- right to vote. I ask you not to make this distution, but if we put into the Constitution this crimination against a class of men who are not less provision it is there to remain, and cannot be worthy, who are at any rate not less intelligent altered, however defective or inapplicable it may than other men, to become citizens. They have be found, and for that reason I hope that nothing the same right as the hod-carrier and as every upon this subject will be put into the Constitu- other man, and you should not, by an arbitrary tion, and that the original proposition of my col- rule, determine that they shall be disfranchised, league from Ontario [Mr. Chesebro] will be it may be, for four or seven years. stricken out, and that the amendment which is Mr. C. C. DWIGHT -I am in favor of a reconnow proposed will be rejected also. sideration of the vote by which this amendment Mr. CHESEBRO -I do not concur with my was adopted, for the reason that I have observed colleague from Ontario [Mr. Lapham] in the views the operation of the provision of the present Conwhich he has just suggested to the Convention. stitution in its application to the students in the I regard the preservation of this right to the theological seminary located at the city where I elector as a fundamental right. reside. There are in that institution some forty or The PRESIDENT pro tem. - Is the gentleman fifty young men, most of whom have before coming speaking in favor of this -amendment or opposed there, pursued a course of liberal education in to it? one or other of the colleges of the country. Mr. CHESEBRO - I am opposed to it. They cut loose from their parental homes, many The PRESIDENT pro ter. - Two have already of them, when they went to college. They are spoken against it. young men who, while yet in college, have been The question was then put upon the amend- supporting themselves by teaching school, and ment of Mr. Hitchcock, and upon a division it was gaining a temporary support, and the means for declared carried by a vote of 56 to 25. the further prosecution of their education. They The question was then put upon the amend- cometoAuburn,and enter the theological seminary ment of Mr. Chesebro as amended, and on a divi- and precisely the same is true in regard to many sion it was declared lost by a vote of 40 to 73. other similar institutions. They come there and Mr. VAN CAMPEN - I desire to move a re- enter the theological seminary, with no other consideration of the vote on the proposition of the home than that at which they are thus pursuing gentleman from Ontario [Mr. Chesebro] inserting their studies. They are of age. They have cut the words, " Nor while a student of any seminary loose, as I said before, from the parental home. of learning." They have made no settlement for life, but while The question was put upon the motion of Mr. they are studying, the place at which they reside Van Campen to reconsider, and on a division it was for the purpose of pursuing their studies is their declared lost by a vote of 44 to 53. home, and I ask, sir, why they should not be Mr. VAN CAMPEN -I call for the ayes and allowed by thus settling in such a place to gain noes. A sufficient number seconding the call, a residence for the purpose of voting? If they the ayes and noes were ordered. have been one year in the State, four months in Mr. GREELEY -I desire to explain simply the county, and otherwise have conformed to the that what the friends of reconsideration ask is not requirements of' the Constitution, give them a any legislation in favor of students. We do not residence there. They have no other residence, wish the Convention to decide that a student gains and if they have no residence there, they are a residence by going into another town or county deprived of the privilege of voting. to vote. Perhaps he does, and perhaps he does Mr. BARKER-I hope the amendment offered not. It depends upon circumstances over which by the gentleman from Ontario [Mr. Chesebro] will this Convention can have no control. I have be retained. I think there is a, misapprehension known of men going to college and becoming on the part of my friend from Cayuga [Mr. C. C. residents of the towns in which they were study- Dwight] as to the extent and interpretation of ing, and I have known other cases in which they the Constitutional provision as it now stands. did not. What we ask is that this Convention do There is no provision against the student gaining not attempt to legislate on a question which this a residence in the place where the college is Convention cannot possiblydecide; a question of located in which he may be a student. It 621 aims at the provision that, when the student is yet connected with the family circle, it shall not be charged to him that he gains or loses a residence while he is in college. But he may gain a residence at the place where the college is located by going to that place and making it his home, and there i:; no interpretation of the provision as it stood in the Constitution of 1846 against the suggestion which I now make, and it is to protect the student that this provision is inserted, and I claim it should be retained. Mr. MERRITT —I would like to ask the gentleman whether he understood the proposition "while there remaining" as equivalent to "by reason of attending." If it is simply that he shall not acquire or lose a residence by reason of attending, his proposition may probably be correct. The PRESIDENT pro tem.- The gentleman is not in order. Mr. CHESEBRO-I am in favor of retaining this proposition and against the reconsideration of the motion for the very reason suggested by the gentleman from Westchester [Mr. Greeley]. I am opposed to any class legislation in regard to electors, therefore I agree with him that no man should gain or lose his residence. If persons go to a seminary of learning for the purpose of taking up their residence there and becoming residents, and if that is their only home then they are residents of that locality, and can vote, and there is no prohibition against it in the Constitution. But what I object to is, they may go to a seminary and vote there, not having lost a residence at their native home. This was a provision of the Constitution of 1846, and I have heard no complaint of it anywhere, and I do not see why it should not be retained in this Constitution. The question was then put on the motion of Mr. Van Campen to reconsider, and it was declared lost by the following vote: Ayes-Messrs. C. L. Allen, Alvord, Andrews, Archer, Armstrong, Axtell, Ballard, Beckwith, Bickford, Bowen, E. A. Brown, W... Brown, Case, Cheritrce, Corbett, C. C. Dwight, T. W. Dwight, Ferry, Flagler, Fowler, Gould, Greeley, Hammond, Hand, Hitchcock, Huntington, Hutchins, Ketcham, Kinney, Lapham, A. Lawrence, M. H. Lawrence, Lee, McDonald, Merrill, Merritt, Opdyke, C. E. Parker, Root, Rumsey, L. W. Russell, Seaver, Sheldon, Sherman, Spencer, Stratton, M. I. Townsend, Van Campen, Van Cott, Wakeman, Williams-51. Noes-Messrs. A. F. Allen, Baker, Barker, Barnard, Barto, Beadle, Beals, Bell, Bergen, E. Brooks, Burril, Carpenter, Cassidy, Champlain, Chese. bro, Church, Clinton, Cochran, Colahan, Comstock, Conger, Cooke, Corning, Eddy, Endress, Evarts, Farnum, Folger, Fullerton, Garvin, Gerry, Graves, Hadley, Hale, Hardenburgh, Harris, Hitchman, Houston, Kernan, Krum, Landon, Law, Livingston, Loew, Lowrey, Ludington, Magee, Maston, Mattice, Merwin, Miller, More, Morris, Paige, A. J. Parker, Pond, Potter, Rathbun, Reynolds, Rogers,Rolfe, Schell, Schoonmaker, Schumaker, Seymour, Strong, Tappen, S. Townsend, Veeder, Verplanck, Wales, Weed, Wickham, Young-74. Mr. VEEDER-I desire to call up a motion made by myself, to reconsider the vote by which the proposition of the gentleman from New York [Mr. Daly] was adopted yesterday. Mr. GREELEY-The object of the reconsideration, as I understand it, is mainly to restore a clause which the Convention yesterday, after careful deliberation, inserted in these words: "and the Legislature shall provide for the registration of any such electors as shall be, unavoidably absent from the place of registration in their respective districts." By a full vote, after a fair discussion, the Convention decided that those words should stand as a part of the Constitution, but by indirection and by inadvertence on the part of the gentleman who moved the amendment [Mr. Daly] these words were not included in the provision, whereby the clause generally was changed. He did not desire to strike that out, and I am sure the Convention did not, and we ask to reconsider simply to be enabled to restore these words which have been thus struck out by mistake. I trust the Convention will allow us to reconsider, and if it shall so decide, to restore this clause. Mr. ALVORD -It was with very great deliberation, and after due consideration and argument; and notwithstanding the work was so well done as supposed by the gentleman from Westchester [Mr. Greeley], this Convention, by a very much more decisive vote, agreed they had been mistaken, and they put in the proposition named by the gentleman from Westchester [Mr. Greeley]. I agree with the gentleman from Westchester in endeavoring to make this matter of registration as perfect as it possibly can be, but it seems to me he departs from the result he aims at the moment he permits any amendment of this kind to be entertained by this Convention or to be inserted in the Constitution, and we might as well throw all registration to the winds as to entertain any such motion as this; it is opening up the whole matter from beginning to end, and will lead to a great deal more corruption than by any possibility could be practiced if we leave this as it is. I hope the motion will not prevail. Mr. BARKER-I desire to say one word before the Convention votes on this question, and I will call attention to the effect of the section as it now stands. It provides that no elector shall vote unless his name is registered. That is one positive provision. Another provision is, it shall take place six days before an election - another positive provision. That the Legislature shall provide by law the details of this registration — another positive provision. That is all there is in the section in regard to it, and in my judgment, it had better be stricken out and be left to the wisdom of succeeding Legislatures. If the provision of the gentleman is introduced, it has this effect, that it puts it beyond the power of the Legislature to require a personal registration. I do not believe there is much wisdom in requiring it, but if experience shall show that it is necessary, let that be a legislative enactment The gentleman is not very wise as I apprehend, in the use of his language when he says, " persons may be excused from making personal registration if they are unavoidably absent." There is no tribunal that can decide that question. It is one of dis 622 cretion and it can only be settled by considering a multiplicity of circumstances. But I am mainly and chiefly opposed to the proposed reconsideration for the reason that the section as it now stands is quite perfect in my judgment and it is dangerous to enter upon the field of adding new provisions, and I hope that the motion to reconsider will not prevail. Mr. VEEDER-I made this motion, sir, and I renew it now to reconsider this vote for the purpose of correcting, what in my judgment was an error, in striking out this provision, providing for registration of voters necessarily absent from their election district at the time the registration is going on. This amendment as proposed, does not provide for the voting of a party who is not registered. There is no such proposition; but it is that when a party is unavoidably or necessarily absent from his election district at the time the registration is going on, that the Legislature shall, by, law, provide a means by which that absent elector's name may be placed upon the registry list. That is the only object of the amendment. In the city of Brooklyn, many cases have come under my own personal observation where electors have been necessarily absent from their residence at the time of registration, but returned in time to vote, but by virtue of the law of 1866, which required a personal attendance before the registration board, they were precluded from voting. I myself came very near being precluded from voting because of that law, although I have voted in that election district for the past ten years and was known to be a voter. I was out of town and detained, but by good fortune I was successful in getting back, just absolutely in time to get my name upon the register. Is this fair? It is unfair when the parties are positively known to all the board of registry, who are absent from the registration. It is unfair that they should not have the means of placing their names upon the register, where they are known beyond all question to be voters, and to be necessarily absent at the time of registration. With us we have several gentlemen who are engaged as pilots-Hell Gate and Sandy Hook pilots-who reside in the city of Brooklyn, and are often out on a cruise to bring in vessels, through the Hell Gate channel or the Sandy Hook channel, and they may be detained there upon the day of registration, and consequently they are precluded from voting, yet everybody knows they are voters. Hundreds of these instances are occurring from time to time; parties are unavoidably called out of town, their families may be away and an accident may happen, and they may be telegraphed for to come immediately, and before they can return the time for registration has expired, and, by virtue of this law, they are excluded from voting. I call for the ayes and noes on this motion. A sufficient number seconding the call, the ayes and noes were ordered. The question was then put on the motion to reconsider, and it was declared lost by the following vote: Ayes-Messrs. Barnard, Barto, Bergen, E. Brooks. E. A. Brown, Burrill, Cassidy, Champlain, Chesebro, Clinton, Colahan, Comstock, Conger, Corning, Daly, Garvin, Gerry, Greeley, Hale, Har-. denburgh, Hitchman, Kernan, Law, M. H. Lawrence, Livingston, Loew, Lowrey, Magee, Masten, Mattice, More, Morris, Paige, A. J. Parker, Potter, Rogers, Rolfe, Schell, Schoonmaker, Schumaker, Seymour, Strong, M. I. Townsend, M. S. Townsend, Van Campen, Veeder, Verplanck, Weed, Wickham, Young-50. Noes-Messrs. A. F. Allen, C. L. Allen, Alvord Andrews, Archer, Armstrong, Axtell, Baker, Ballard, Barker, Beadle, Beals, Beckwith, Bell, Bick ford, Bowen, W. C. Brown, Carpenter, Case, Chern tree, Cooke, Corbett, C. C. Dwight, T. W. Dwight Eddy, Endress, Evarts, Farnum, Ferry, Flagler, Folger, Fewler, Fuller, Fullerton, Gould, Graves, Hadley, Hammond, Hand, Harris, Hitchcock, Houston, Huntington, Hutchins, Ketcham, Kinney, Krum, Landon, Lapham, A. Lawrence, Lee, Ludington, McDonald, Merrill, Merritt, Merwin, Miller, Opdyke, C. E. Parker, Pond. Prosser, Rathbun, Reynolds, Root, Rumsey, T. W. Russell, Seaver, Sheldon, Sherman, Spencer, Stratton, Van Cott, Wakeman, Wales, Williams-75. Mr. SHERMAN offered the following resolution: Resolved, That the article under consideration, with all pending questions relating thereto, be referred to the Committee of Revision, with instructions to report the article revised as to language. and corrected as to inconsistencies, if any exist therein, but without change of substantial provisions. Mr. RUMSEY moved to amend the resolution by adding at the end thereof the following: Resolved, That the committee of five to whom the article on the right of suffrage is referred, be instructed to insert at the end of the first section the following: "Provided, That in time of war, no elector in the actual military service of the United States, in the army or navy thereof, shall be deprived of his vote by reason of his absence from the State." Mr. RUMSEY-The object of that amendment is simply to correct an incongruity in the article as it now stands. There is a provision in the third section, that the Legislature shall provide for the manner in which electors who are absent from home may vote. There is a proviso in the first section which says that no elector shall vote except in the district where he resides, and the resolution I have offered is simply to correct that incongruity, and make a provision that will allow soldiers to vote in time of war. Mr. SE RMAN -The resolution I offered I think provides for that, for it provides that any inconsistencies existing in the article, the committee may correct. I do not say myself there is any inconsistency such as the gentleman speaks of, but if so, the committee can correct it. Mr. WAKEMAN - If the Legislature provides for the absent voter, it provides that he votes in the fistrict where he resides, and under the present Constitution as amended, the absent electors vote in the district where they reside and where they are registered; the Legislature provides that the vote may be deposited in a certain way, and conveyed by some person to be deposited in the district where he resides, so he in that way votes in the district where he belongs. Mr. RUMSEY —If it is understood that is an 623 inconsistency, the committee may or may not [Mr. Conger] is atliberty to speak under the rulilng amend, I withdraw my amendment. of the Chair? Mr. E. BROOKS —I offer the following as an The PRESIDENT pro tern. - Only once. amendment to the resolution of the gentleman Mr. CONGER -After these grave questions from Oneida [Mr. Sherman]: are settled, sir - That the report now under consideration, with Mr. RATHBUN- I believe the gentleman all the provisions lying upon the table relating to from Rockland [Mr. Conger] has occupied the the same, be committed to the select committee floor from the time he first rose, and has occupied appointed on the 27th day of July, with instruc- his full time. tious to report to the Convention in principle and The PRESIDENT pro tern.- - The gentleman substance, article second, section first of the Con- from Rockland was putting his resolution in writstitution of 1846, with the following amendments: ing under the direction of the Chair. The gentleNo property qualification for the right of suffrage man from Rockland will now proceed and occupy or for eligibility to office, shall ever be required. his full time. No person authorized to vote under the existing Mr. CONGER- When I drew the attention of Constitution, shall be disfranchised, nor shall the the Convention this morning to what I believe to right of suffrage be abridged or extended; Pro- be a very great defect and a cardinal vice in this vided, however, That laws shall be passed by last clause of section four, the gentleman from the first Legislature assembled after the adoption Onondaga [Mr. Alvord] almost expressed his of this Constitution, excluding from the right to derision, by a palpable sneer at the view I had vote all persons who may pay or receive money presentedor any other thing of value. or promise any con- Mr. MERRILL -I rise to a point of order, that sideration, place or office, with the view of secur- the last part of the amendment of the gentleman ing or preventing the election of any candidate for from Rockland [Mr. Conger] has been voted down. any Federal, State or local office, or who may be The PRESIDENT pro tern. -The whole propengaged in buying or selling votes, or in any way osition of the gentleman from Rockland is now preventing the purity of the ballot or the freedom taken together. of elections. Mr. CONGER —I wish to be advised if I did Mr. CONGER -I move to amend the resolu- not correctly understand the Chair yesterday to tion of the gentleman from Oneida [Mr. Sherman] say when this question was presented, when the by adding at the end of it, " And with further in- question was asked, not formally but indirectly, structions to amend the last clause of section four, of the Chair by a gentleman on my right, so as to prevent the defeasance of a vote - " whether the effect of the last clause would not, The PRESIDENT pro tem. - The gentleman in the event of the destruction of the registry will please reduce his amendment to writing. list before it was perfected, exclude all persons Mr. FERRY- I am opposed to the adoption from voting whose names were not on the list. of this resolution, unless some good reason can be The PRESIDENT pro tern. - The Chair does shown for it, and unless the other motions to not remember having given any such legal decision. reconsider can be heard. I made one myself and Mr. CONGER-In regard to the latter part of I would like an opportunity to be heard, unless the resolution-that we shall instruct the comsome good reason can be shown why we should mittee-I deem it a matter of the gravest importstop with this imperfect review of this report. ance that the last section of article twelve of the The SECRETARY proceeded to read the Constitution of 1846 should be added, otherwise amendment proposed by Mr. Conger, as follows: it will be in the power of the Legislature, in ad"And with further instructions to amend the dition to the oath which has now been added to last clause of section four, so as to prevent the the ordinary official oath, to impose any form of defeasance of votes on the failure to make a oath, declaration or test that it may see fit to do, proper register, or in the event of its destruction and it is in violation of a constitutional provision before it is finished. And to add to section six the which has existed in the State since 1821, and in last clause of article twelve of the Constitution of violation of the uniform practice of the people of 1846." the State since the adoption of its first ConstituMr. FERRY - Mr. President- tion in 1777. I look upon these as very great misThe PRESIDENT pro tern. - The gentleman chiefs; I may be in very great error, but I submit has already spoken once. in all sincerity it is due by this Convention to the Mr. FERRY - This is only part of my speech - great body of the people to have these questions The PRESIDENT pro tern. — Then the gentle- clearly and definitely stated. man has occupied his full time. Mr. HADLEY-I move that the Convention do Mr. CONGER-In regard to the first of these now take a recess until four o'clock. propositions I wish very briefly to show its mean- The question was put on the motion of Mr. ing- Hadley, and it was declared lost. Mr. CORBETT - I rise to a point of order. The question was then put on the amendment That the gentleman from Rockland [Mr. Conger] of Mr Conger, and it was declared lost. has already made a speech on offering the amend- Mr. KETCHAM offered the following resolument and cannot make another one- tion: The PRESIDENT pro tem.- The Chair is of Resolved, That the Committee of Revision, to opinion it hardly amounted to a speech. [Laugh- which is referred the subject of the elective franter.] chise, be instructed to strike out the word " to," Mr. C. C. DWIGHT -I would like to inquire in line five of section four, and to insert in lieu how many times the gentleman from Rockland thereof the words, " which in cities and incorpo 624 rated villages shall," so that it shall read: "The J. Hildreth, asking that the Convention would Legislature shall provide for a register of all citi- propose plans by which suffering humanity may zens entitled to the right of suffrage in each elec- be everlastingly benefited, by a prohibitory liquor tion district, which in cities and incorporated law. [Laughter]. villages shall be completed at least six days before Which was referred to the Committee on Adulevery election other than town elections. terated Liquors. Mr. GREELEY-I rise to a point of order, that Mr. M. H. LAWRENCE presented the petition that proposition has been voted down two or three of seventy citizens of the village of Dundee and times. vicinity, in Yates county, praying against the apThe PRESIDENT pro tem.-The Chair is of propriation of public moneys by the Legislature, opinion, the resolution is not now in order, it hav- to sectarian institutions. ing been once passed upon by the Convention. Which was referred to the Committee on the The question was then put on the resolution of Powers and Duties of the Legislature. Mr. Sherman, and it was declared adopted. Mr. POTTER presented a petition from F. Mr. COOKE-I move that the Convention take Bucklin, Lydia Baldwin, and ninety others, citia recess until four o'clock. zens of Erie county, asking for equal suffrage for Mr. WEED-I move that the Convention do women. now adjourn. Which was laid on the table. The question was put on the motion of Mr. Mr. FERRY presented the petition of ninetyWeed, and it was declared lost, on a division, by a nine inhabitants of the town of Butternuts vote of 38 to 69. Otsego county, against the appropriation of The question was put on the motion of Mr. public moneys by the Legislature to sectarian COOKE, and it was declared carried. institutions. So the Convention took a recess until four Which was referred to the Committee on the o'clock. Powers and Duties of the Legislature. Mr. FULLER presented the petition of J. R. AFTERNOON SESSION. Sage and nine other citizens of Monroe and LivThe Convention met at 4 o'clock P. M. The ingston counties on the same subject. President pro ter. [Mr. FOLGER] in the Chair. Which took the same reference. Mr. MERRITT presented the petition of J. Mr. BICKFORD presented the petition of G. Fletcher Clymer, pastor of the Methodist Church W. Warren and nineteen others, citizens of Cape in Potsdam, St. Lawrence county, and 41 others, Vincent, Jefferson county, on the same subject. asking for a constitutional provision prohibiting Which took the same reference. the Legislature from donating public moneys to Mr. BOWEN presented a petition from eightysectarian institutions. two citizens of Suspension Bridge, Niagara counWhich was referred to the Committee on the ty, on the same subject. Powers and Duties of the Legislature. Which took the same reference. Mr. HITCIIMAN presented the petition of E. Mr. FOWLER presented a petition from Charles J. Hillman and 69 others, residents of the town L. Kennedy and thirty-seven others, citizens of of Bedford, Westchester county, on the same sub- Madison county, asking that a provision be incorject. porated in the Constitution for the appointment of Which took the same reference. the Superintendent of Public Instruction by the Mr. GERRY presented a memorial of the Regents of the University. Propagation Committee of the Grand Division of Which was referred to the Committee on EduEastern New York on the subject of intoxicating cation. liquors. Mr. FOWLER also presented the petition of Which was referred to the Committee on Adul- G. W. Foster and forty-six others, citizens of Cherterated Liquors. ry Valley, praying against the donation of public Mr. CONGER presented a petition from thirty moneys by the Legislature to sectarian institutions. citizens of Bedford, Westchester county, and one Which was referred to the Committee on the from Westbury, Long Island, against the appro- Powers and Duties of the Legislature. priation by the Legislature of public moneys to sec- Mr. HOUSTON presented the petition of G. A. tarian institutions. Howard and others on the same subject. Which was referred to the Committee on the Which took the same reference. Powers and Duties of the Legislature. Mr. STRATTON presented the petition of Jacob Mr. ARMSTRONG presented the petition of L. Sebring, Joseph Nobles and others, citizens of Newton Reid and twenty-two others, citizens of the city of New York on the same subject. South Amenia, Dutchess county, on the same Which took the same reference. subject. Mr. STRATTON also presented 35 several petiWhich took the same reference. tions of citizens of the city of New York asking Mr. FLAGLER presented a petition from sixty- that the Legislature be prohibited from passing six citizens of Niagara county, on the same sub- any law prohibiting the traffic in fermented liquors ject. and wines, and that all laws for regulating such Which took the same reference. traffic, or for the maintenance of public order and Mr. BARTO (on behalf of Mr. Larremore) pre. morality, shall be general. sented the petition of A. F. Todd and fifty-three Which were referred to the Committee on others, citizens of Piermont, on the same subject. Adulterated Liquors. Which took the same reference. Mr. STRATTON presented the petition of Peter Mr. BARNARD presented the petition of John W. Downing, Henry Highland Garnet and 190 625 others, referred to in the Constitution of this State as "men of color" praying that no discrimination be made in the exercise of the elective franchise, based on any property qualification. Which was laid on the table. Mr. HITCHCOCK presented the petition of J. M. Mott and about sixty others of Fort Edward, Washington county, praying that an article be inserted in the Constitution prohibiting the sale of intoxicating liquors as a beverage. Which was referred to the Committee on Adulterated Liquors. Mr. COCHRAN presented the petition of Rev. Benjamin C. Lippincott and 105 others, citizens of Rockland county, asking that a provision be inserted in the Constitution prohibiting the donations of public moneys to sectarian institutions. Which was referred to the Committee on the Powers and Duties of the Legislature. Mr. L. W. RUSSELL presented the petition of of Rev. L. C. Brown and others, citizens of Canton, on the same subject. Which took the same reference. Mr. L. W. RUSSELL also presented the petition of W. C. McDonald, and other citizens of Winfield, on the same subject. Which took the same reference. Mr. COOKE presented the petition of Isaac Tallman and thirty-eight others, citizens of Rockland county, on the same subject. Which took the same reference. Mr. VAN COTT presented the petition of Richard H. Chittenden and forty others, citizens of Brooklyn, on the same subject. Which took the same reference. Mr. VAN COTT also presented the petition of C. W. Thomas and one hundred and forty-two others, citizens of Westchester, on the same subject. Which took the same reference. Mr. McDONALD presented the petition of thirty-seven citizens of Ontario county, on the same subject. Which took the same reference. Mr. SMITH presented the petition of fifty-nine citizens of Fort Plain, on the same subject. Which took the same reference. Mr. PRINDLE presented the petition of E. L. Smith and thirteen others, of Sherburn, praying for a separate submission to the people of a proposition for prohibiting the sale of intoxicating liquors as a beverage. Which was referred to the Committee on Adulterated Liquors. Mr. HUNTINGTON presented the petition of sundry citizens of Oneida and Oswego counties, asking for a provision in the Constitution prohibiting the Legislature fion. donating public moneys to sectarian institutions. Which was referred to the Committee on the Powers and Duties of the Legislature. Mr. TAPPIEN presented the petition of George J. Means and twenty-seven others on the same subject. Which took the same reference. Mr. LOWREY presented the petition of John Vanderbilt, asking that section 6 of article 1 of the Constitution be amended, making it the duty of the court to see that just compensation is 79 made for private property taken for public uses. Which was referred to the Committee on the Preamble and Bill of Rights. Mr. YOUNG presented the petition of J. Thompson, of New York city, and asked that the same be read. The SECRETARY proceeded to read the petition, as follows: Without stopping to elaborate a petition in due form, to your honorable body, I beg to recommend that the question of interest and the penalties for usury be taken into consideration by the Convention. In the National Currency Act, Congress has empowered the banks in this State (ds our laws now stand) to take seven per cent interest, and has limited the penalty for usury to a forfeiture of the entire interest which the note, bill or other evidence of debt carries with it, or which has been agreed to be paid thereon. (See section 30, act of June 3d, 1864, commonly called the National Currency Act.) This forfeiture is so mild that the banks can take usury with impunity, they being amenable under the acts of Congress, and not under any State act. The laws of our State are so unmercifully severe as regards usury that the borrower of money is often forced into bargains more disastrous than any rate of interest, even of one hundred per cent per annum. Our law forfeits the entire debt and cancels the obligation; no matter how ignorant and innocent the bona fide holder of a tainted obligation may be. (See sections 5 and 14, pages 182-3, second volume Revised Statutes.) And if the law is fully administered, the taking of usury is a misdemeanor, to be punished by fine and imprisonment. (See section 15, page 183, volume 2.) This State law governs in all cases both private and corporate, except at the banks whose powers, privileges and forfeitures are fixed and defined by act of Congress. I ask, first, is it wise to retain in the statutes, acts that no court has ever enforced, to wit, the fine and imprisonment for usury. Second, is it just to place the people and corporations of the State, at such disadvantage with the corporations whose powers are derived from Congress. Very Respectfully, J. THOMPSON. The petition was referred to the Committee on Banking and Insurance. Mr. RUMSEY presented the petition of 109 citizens of Orange, Schuyler county, asking for a provision in the Constitutioh prohibiting the Legislature from donating public moneys to sectarian institutions. Which was referred to the Committee on the Powers and Duties of the Legislature. Mr. SPENCER presented the petition of D. B. Winton and others on the same subject. Which took the same reference. Mr. M. I. TOWNSEND presented the petition of thirty-seven electors, on the same subject. Which took the same reference. The PRESIDENT pro tem. presented the petition of Isaac S. Hand and others, citizens of Brooklyn, on the same subject. Which took the same reference. The PRESIDENT pro tern. also presented the 626 petition of Charles Tracy and others, lawyers, of New York be and he is hereby instructed to make New York city, asking that all judges be appoint- full report to this Convention of the net sums ed by the Governor, and hold office during annually received from the several sources herein good behavior. enumerated and applied through the sinking Which was referred to the Committee on the fund for the redemption of the city debt, or to Judiciary. the payment of interest on the city debt during Mr. HUTCHINS presented the petition of G. years from 1847 to 1866 inclusive, and a stateB. Hoag and fifty others, asking for a provision ment showing the expenses incurred in each of in the Constitution prohibiting the Legislature from said years, in granting such licenses, collecting donating public moneys to sectarian institutions. such fees, and in legal efforts to enforce payment Which was referred to the Committee on the or collect penalties for non-compliance to law or Powers and Duties of the Legislature. ordinance in each of such cases; whether such Mr. HUTCHINS also presented the petition expenses were allowed by the mayor and comof S. Kaufman and several hundred others, citizens mon council of the city, or by the board of superof New York, in relation to the free school system. visors of the county, namely: Which was referred to the Committee on the 1. For licenses to pawnbrokers and to dealers Powers and' Duties of the Legislature. in second-hand furniture, metals or clothes. Mr. HATCH presented the petition of C. C. 2. For licenses for hackney coaches and drivers. Staubro, of Concord, R. F. Yates and others ask- 3. For fees of market privileges and market ing for a provision in the Constitution prohibiting rents. the Legislature from donating money to sectarian 4. For mayoralty fees. institutions. 5. For fines and penalties. Which was referred to the Committee on the 6. For fees and fines collected by clerks and Powers and Duties of the Legislature. courts. Mr. GRAVES presented the petition of the 7. For tavern and excise licenses. Sons of Temperance against the sale of intoxicat- The question was put on the resolution, and it ing liquors.. was declared adopted. Which was referred to the Committee on Adul- Mr. FERRY, from the Committee on Contingent terated Liquors. Expenses, submitted the following report: The PRESIDENT pro tern. presented a com- Your committee to whom was referred the resmunication from the Superintendent of Public In-' olution gf Mr. Conger, directing " the clerk to furstructions in answer to the resolution of inquiry nish to the reporters who have been admitted to introduced by Mr. Barto. the courtesies of the floor, the stationery necesWhich was laid on the table and ordered to be sary for them in the discharge of their functions printed. as reporters, and that he report the amount and Mr. SHERMAN gave the following notice, that value, of such stationery, as severally distributed he would on some future day, move to suspend by him before the close of the sitting of this Conthe third and twenty-first rules, so that it shall be vention," respectfully report: That they are in order for him, at the proper time, to move the opposed to the adoption of the resolution for reaadoption of the following resolution: sons stated in a former report made to this body Rtsolved. That in order to facilitate action on upon a similar resolution introduced by Mr. the article reported by the "Committee on the Tucker, and for the further reason that they Legislature, its Organization, etc.," the Committee regard the questions involved as settled by the of the Whole be directed to consider, before act- deliberate action of this Convention, in adopting ing on the article by sections, the following gen- said report. This ought to be and must be the eral propositions, viz.: effect of such action provided both resolutions are 1. Of what number shall the Senate consist. substantially alike and your committee believe 2. Of what number shall the Assembly consist. that the more orderly, if not the more respectful 3. I-low many senate districts shall there be. course would be, to move a reconsideration of the 4. What shall be the term of Senators. former vote if a change was desired by any mem5. What the term of members of Assembly. ber dissatisfied with it. 6. Shall members of Assembly be elected by The first resolution- that of Mr. Tuckercounties or by single districts, or in what other authorized the granting of like stationery to the manner. reporters, as had already been received by the 7. Shall the apportionment of senate districts members, to wit, $30 each. be made by the Conventian or left to the Legisla- The last resolution directs the clerk to furnish ture. them all necessary stationery, without limiting 8. Shall the apportionment of members of As- the amount thereof, and in this respect only does sembly be made by the Convention or left to the the last resolution essentially differ from the first. Legislature. We regard this difference, however, as a highly Mr. HARRIS-I am instructed by the Commit- objectionable feature in the last resolution. The tee on Cities to report back the resolution lessons of the past have taught us that it is offered by Mr. Stratton, of New York, calling up- much safer and better to limit all appropriations on the Comptroller of the city of New York for of this character where there is nothing to interinformation in relation to moneys received from pose between the avarice of individuals and the various sources, and recommend its passage. public treasury but the discretion of an official, The SECRETARY proceeded to read the resolu- however worthy that official may be, and we tion as follows: regard this as so manifestly true that we Resolved, That the Comptroller of the city of occupy no time in attempting to prove 627 it. Your committee would say in con- A sufficient number seconding the call the ayes elusion that they were at first inclined and noes were ordered. to believe that this last resolution was Mr. VEEDER -I move, if in order, so that offered under a misapprehension of the action of we may all understand precisely what these various this Convention in regard to the former resolution, reports are, and act understandingly upon these but a more careful comparison of the two led to a subjects, that the reports be laid upon the table discovery of the distinction above named, and and printed. which the mover may have honestly considered The question was put on the motion of Mr. a merit sufficient to justify this Convention in Veeder, and it was declared lost. deciding differently than before. Therefore your Mr. WEED - I was going to ask if these reports committee have given the matter a respectful and whatever the action of the Convention upon them candid examination and have arrived at the con- may be, are not to be printed? elusion that so far as the latter resolution differs The PRESIDENT pro tern. - The Chair supfrom the former, it is less meritorious and more poses they will be printed and go upon the objectionable for the reasons above stated. They Journal. therefore recommend that the resolution be not Mr. WEED -Then it seems to me that we adopted. E. E. FERRY, might have them printed upon the Journal before Chairman. we vote upon them. Mr. COCHRAN from the same committee sub- Mr. E. BROOKS -I suppose the Convention mitted a minority report as follows: in refusing to lay the motion of the gentleman The undersigned, one of the Committee on Con- from Kings [Mr. Veeder] on the table, have practingent Expenses, dissents from the conclusion of tically agreed to vote upon the reports that have the majority of that committee against the resolu- emenated from the committee. Now, sir, I hope tion presented by Mr. Conger, on the 12th of the report of the minority will be adopted. I July, and referred to said committee. For many regard the reporters whom the President of the years the two houses of the Legislature have Convention has appointed - designated their reporters, and they have been Mr. VAN CAMPEN -If the gentleman will furnished for their reporters and officers, the same allow me I will move an amendment to the resoamount of stationery as the members of the Leg- lution so as to limit the amount to be furnished islature. The undersigned is of the opinion that to each reporter to thirty dollars. a similar provision was intended to be made for Mr. E. BROOIS-I do not suppose the amount the convenience of this Convention and its the reporters require at this period of the Convenreporters and officers by the terms of the act pro- tion will be equal to the sum named by the gentleviding for the election of delegates. In the third man from Cattaraugus [Mr. Van Campen]. There section of that act, the Comptroller is directed to is a principle involved here which seems to have furnish stationery to the members, as in the case excited the opposition of the Committee on Conof members of the Legislature, ' and to the Con- tingent Expenses. Now, sir, I hold that the vention such stationery and file-boards, and other reporters in this Convention to whom the Presilike things as are furnished to the two houses of dent of the Convention has awarded seats, are in the Legislature." If these two houses are furn- one sense officers of this body; they are responished with stationery for their reporters and officer, sible to it for the manner in which they conduct what further is needed to entitle the Convention themselves during the deliberations of this body, to the same accommodation, but the expression of and inasmuch as seats have been awarded them, its desire therefor. It is most respectfully sug- and they are engaged in the discharge of an imgested that this provision of the law was pos- portant duty-ift not important to us, important to sibly overlooked by many, when the resolution the public-they are entitled to the usual courteof Mr. Tucker providing for the stationery of the sies awarded to the officers of the body. We reporters, was rejected. If the Convention has have appropriated a large amount of money to the power, the undersigned is satisfied that it will have our proceedings officially published in be very ready and willing to firnish its reporters two of thie leading papers of the city of with all the conveniences for the proper discharge Albany, but the extent of this publication is small of their office. While they are not the employees indeed, large as it is, compared with the daily of the Convention, in the strict sense, they are reports which are sent from this Convention to very essential parts of the agency for th e proper the various journals of the State; and but for the accomplishment of its business, and of great representatives of the press in thio Convention benefit in communicating to the people, early an account of the protracted proceedings which information of the transactions of this body. have attended our sessions during the few weeks The undersigned therefore respectfully recommends past, and the dela y in the publication of the that the resolution presented by Mr. Conger, be debates, it would be impossible for the public to adopted by the Convention. know what has transpired from day to day in this ROBERT COCHIRAN. body. In this, therefore, I find a good reason for the adoption of the report of the minority. Sir, Mr. CORBETT - I would like, if in order, to the object of the press is, to show, as has been move that the report of the minority be substitu- said, "the very age and body of the time, its ted for the report of the majority, form and pressure." And gentlemen in public The PRESIDENT pro tern. - The motion is in life very well understand the meaning of the poet order. when he says "It were better to have a bad Mr. CORBETT - Then I make that motion. epitaph when dead than their ill-report while Mr. VEEDER - I call for the ayes and noes. living." But irrespective of any view of this 628 sort, I hold that what is proposed is a proper courtesy and the discharge of a proper duty on the part of the Convention. ' I therefore hope the resolution submitted by the gentleman representing the minority will be adopted. Mr. VEEDER -I desire to make this explanation. I had no desire at all to defeat the adoption of the report of the minority, but I submit that there are some things mentioned in the report of the majority that ought to be answered, and for the purpose of enabling us to examine the report carefully I desire it should be printed before we act upon it. If the Convention are ready now to act upon it I am perfectly willing myself to vote. The question was put on the amendment of Mr. Mr. Van Campen and it was declared adopted. Mr. E. BROOKS - If a motion were now made to reconsider the vote just taken could it be had at once? The PRESIDENT pro tern. -It could not. It must lie on the table. Mr. McDONALD -In regard to this vote, it seems to me, if we propose to pass upon the recommendation of the majority or receive and adopt the recommendations of the minority of the committee, we should do it by a reconsideration. We have already a similar resolution reported by this committee which refused to grant this amount, and as I understand the Convention they have refused to grant it simply on the ground that we have no power to give away any amount for such purpose. I admit, as any one else does, that the reporters deserve this amount if we had it to give, but I contend that we have no more right to give away the money of the State than we have to give away the money belonging to an individual. If the Convention is willing, I should be very glad to join with them in order to give this amount to the reporters. I do not think the gentleman from Richmond [Mr. E. Brooks] will claim that there is any authority in this Convention to give away this money as conferred by the law under which we are acting. I know the gentleman has cited the fact that we have given the papers a certain amount for publishing the debates of this Convention; that resolution or rather that decision may be authority for him, but as I was opposed to that decision it is no authority for me at all. If I remember aright, that resolution was passed by this Convention because a large majority of members thought that the Legislature had overlooked such a provision and regarded it as a matter of necessity'- a matter of absolute necessity, and under that view they passed that resolution. But because we have taken one wrong step in that direction, it is no reason why we should take another. It does seem to me that the gentleman from Richmond [Mr. E. Brooks], in accepting the amendment of the gentleman from Cattaraugus [Mr. Van Campen], shows that he is desirous the appropriation should be limited. The resolution of that gentleman simply makes this the identical resolution which this Convention has already voted down, and which, as I have said before, was voted down simply for want of authority in this Convention. Relying upon this precedent, and believing that we have no more right to give away the money of the people of the State than we have to give away the money of any individual, I am not willing to support this resolution, and hope that the report of the majority will be accepted instead of that of the minority. Mr. CORBETT - Those who are in favor of the report of the minority are simply in favor of what is the usual practice in the State Legislature, and what they believe is fairly contemplated by the law convening this body. We have invited gentlemen here to report our proceedings, and I think it is not asking too much that we should give them the requisite ink and paper with which to perform the service. It is exceedingly fortunate that cheap economy has such a valiant champion as the gentleman from Ontario [Mr. McDonald]; but I look upon it as a very shabby piece of business to deny to the reporters of this Convention the necessary facilities to perform the duties we have imposed upon them. The people of this State are not misers, and they will sanction any expenditure that may be necessary to enable this Convention to successfully complete its labors. I trust, therefore, the Convention will adopt the minority report and thus be generous as well as just. Mr. REYNOLDS - I am a member of the Contingent Expense Committee, and one of the majority of that committee that reported against making the appropriation contemplated by the resolution of the gentleman from New York [Mr. Tucker] which was referred to that committee. The Convention sustained that report. The resolution of the gentleman from Rockland [Mr. Congar] is identical in character with the one against which the committee had already reported. And as their action had been sustained by the Convention, they were justified in believing that their' position in regard to this and all similar appropriations of the public money was in accordance with the sentiment of the Convention. Under these circumstances the Committee felt bound to report against the appropriation contemplated by the resolution of the gentleman from Rockland [Mr. Conger] - fully believing that there was no authority of law for it. Personally, I have nb feeling in the matter, and if the Convention shall reverse its former decision, and now sustain the minority report, as an individu'al member of that committee I shall make no objection, though such action will not change my opinion as to the propriety of the course taken by the committee-and can but regard such action by the Convention as unfortunate as influencing its action in regard to similar appropriations in the future. Mr. TAPPEN - I apprehend that the action of this body was an error upon the former occasion, which it is not proposed to repeat now. I believe to refuse this allowance would not be justice, but would be parsimonious, and would be great injustice to the number of gentlemen who are acting in official relations between this body and the people. We have the example of legislative bodies in awarding this mere pittance to gentlemen representing the public press, and these gentlemen who are here, are the telegraph between this body and the people of the State. I hold it to be an act of justice which this Convention will now perform in adopting the resolution as amended by the gentleman from Cattaraugus [Mr. Van Campen], 629 awarding the thirty dollars worth of stationery for these gentlemen who are faithfully attending this body, and go back upon what is called the former action of the Convention on this subject. Mr. ALVORD - I happen to be one of the unfortunate class who voted against this proposition when it was up before, and it is almost in the same terms now as it was then, but fortunately at that time I was in the majority of the Convention, and I hope will still continue to be thus fortunate in the future.' I hold there is no sort of question about the fact that we have no authority or right which would justify us in taking money from the public treasury for this purpose. It does not obtain, nor has it, as far as I understand, obtained in any legislative body other than the State of New York, within the limits of the United States of America, nor does it obtain in the Congress of the United States. These reporters, who are they? They are the reporters of the public press, who come here, not by our invitation, but who ask us the privilege, in the furtherance of the interests of their employers, to have a place upon this floor in order to report our proceedings and make their papers the more valuable in consequence of it. They are under the necessity of having public information and they are sent here for that purpose by their employers in the first instance, and not invited by us here to seats upon the floor for our convenience. Another thing, sir, I hold that it is neither miserly upon my part, and it is neither inconsistent upon my part to take this position. If it were a necessity, sir, that we should have these reporters here and could not get them here otherwise than by paying them thirty dollars worth of stationery, I would be willing to take the money out of my own pocket and give to these men to the amount of thirty dollars, in my proportion, in order to give them this stationery, but when I have it put directly before me in my face, that under the law which has convened us together, we have no right thus to dispose of the public money, and that the Comptroller of the State, in the performance of his duty, will refuse to pay any such amount out of the funds of the State appropriated for this Conventoin, and that it must of necessity be that if these men are furnished stationery upon the order of.the Clerk, the men who furnish it will have to go to the next Legislature for an enabling act to get the money out of the Treasury to pay them, therefore, I am opposed to the whole matter. I therefore, with due deference to the Convention ask that the Chair shall decide that this question having been once determined in substance, if not in form, by the Convention, that it cannot be gotten up in the present shape of the amendment of the gentleman from Cattaraugus [Mr. Van Campen] by way of consideration. I make that point of order. The PRESIDENT pro tem.-The Chair is not sufficiently familiar with the resolution to decide that the point of order is well taken. This question comes upon the report of the committee, and it has got to be disposed of. Mr. ALVORD-If the Chair does not desire to decide that, I move that the whole matter be laid upon the table, and upon that motion I call for the ayes and noes. A sufficient number seconding the call, the ayes and noes were ordered. The question was then put upon the motion of Mr. Alvord, and it was lost by the followingvote: Ayes- Messrs. A. F. Allen, C. L. Allen, Alvord, Andrews, Armstrong, Baker, Ballard, Beadle, Bell, Bergen, Bickford, Bowen, E. P. Brooks, W. C. Brown, Case, Cheritree, Cooke, Farnum, Flagler, Folger, Gould, Graves, Hadley, Hammond, Hand, Hitchcock, Houston, Hutchins, Kernan, Ketcham, Krum, Landon, Lapham, A. Lawrence, M. H. Lawrence, Lee, Ludington, McDonald, Merritt, Prindle, Presser, Rathbun, Reynolds, Rolfe, Root, Rumsey, L. W. Russell, Seaver, Sheldon, Spencer, M. I. Townsend, Williams-52. Noes-Messrs. Archer, Barker, Barnard, Barto, E. Brooks, Burrill, Carpenter, Cassidy, Champlain, Chesebro, Clark, Clinton, Cochran, Colahan, Comstock, Conger, Corbett, Corning, Daly, C. C. Dwight, T. W. Dwight; Evarts, Fowler, Fuller, Fullerton, Garvin, Gerry, Greeley, Hale, Hardenburgh, Harris, Hatch, Hitchman, Huntington, Kinney, Livingston, Loew, Lowrey, Magee, Mattice, Merrill, Merwin, More, Morris, Opdyke, A. J. Parker, C. E. Parker, Potter, Robertson, A. D. Russell, Schoonmaker, Schumaker, Seymour, Sherman, Smith, Stratton, Strong, Tappen, S. Townsend, Van Campen, Van Cott, Veeder, Verplanck, Wakeman, Wales, Weed, Wickham, Young-69. Mr. CONGER-I suppose in the first place, Mr. President, that I should return my obligations to the majority of the committee, who have so generously accorded to me their verdict of honesty of conviction in regard to the resolution which I offered. I wish I could as honestly reciprocate the compliment as to their careful discrimination between the proposition which I submitted and the one which had been previously voted down by the Convention. I concede, in the first place, that we have no right under the law to grant the reporters of the Convention, for private use, an amount of stationery equal to that which many of us have received under the law, for use other than in the Convention chamber; which is limited to the amount of thirty dollars. But the purport of my resolution was to give the reporters of this Convention permission to receive from the clerk of this body a sufficient amount of stationery for the actual work in which they were engaged, while sitting here and enjoying the courtesy of this body. I suppose there can be no question whatever that every body constituted as this is, has sufficient control over its contingent expenses to regulate the manner in which the stationery which is in the hands of the clerk, may be distributed and used. Now I take it that there is an essential distinction between that view, and the position taken by the gentleman from Onondaga [Mr. Alvord]. If my resolution had been in substance the same as the original resolution, I should think it might be obnoxious to some censure as an attempt to reconsider a previous negative vote of the Coinvention, but if I can make the gentleman from Onondaga appreciate the distinctionMr. ALVORD observed that the amendmentt of the gentleman from Cattaraugus [Mr. Van Campen] made itothe original proposition. 630. Mr. CONGER - I did not so understand the committee once it would be only an offset to one effect of the amendment, because it does not set of the two rebukes they have given us in this aside any portion of the resolution which I offered, Convention. They certainly went out of the way but only limits the amount in value up to which in their first report to rebuke the Convention for a supply may be granted. Now, if this resolution the vote taken in Convention some days before, was designed to give the reporters authority for and they now not only rebuke the Convention, a draft on the Comptroller for thirty dollars, by but most severely rebuke the gentleman who which they could purchase their own stationery. introduced the resolution. I do not look upon our I should say then that the whole proposition action here as a rebuke to the committee at all. came within the law and should be voted down- I look upon it in the light in which the gentleman Mr. VAN CAMPEN-I desire to call the atten- from Monroe [Mr. Reynolds] puts it. He says tion of the gentleman [Mr. Conger], to the fact they felt as though the action of this Convention that the amendment merely limits the amount of should induce them to make the report they did, the allowance for stationery. and they made it because of that action. The Mr. CONGER- I understand that fully, there- Convention here have thought upon it. The other fore I think the proposition as amended by the vote was taken without much thought or gentleman from Cattaraugus [Mr. Van Campen] discussion. If the Convention see fit to does not come fairly within the censure of the change their action it will be no rebuke gentleman from Onondaga [Mr. Alvord]. The to this committee. They have done their duty Secretary is to distribute a certain amount of by having adhered to the action of the Con. stationery, and he is to report that amount at the vention. Now it seems to me that the facts close of the Conventios. set forth in the minority report have been Mr. ALVORD - Then I understand the gentle- entirely overlooked. That report refers to the man makes a distinction whether the Secretary third section of the act under which this Convenputs his hand into the treasury and gets it, or tion is organized, and in that section the follow. whether the reporter does. ing words are used: Mr. CONGER-Not at all. If we have any "And it shall be the duty of the Comptroller rights as a parliamentary body, we have a right to furnish the members thereof" (of the Convento a certain amount of stationery for the use of tion) " with stationery to the amount provided by this Convention and for the clerical force which law for the Legislature while in session, and to we employ, either directly or indirectly. I con- the Convention such stationery and file-boards, sider it no0 evasion of law to authorize the Secre- and other like things as are furnished to the two tary to give reporters the amount of stationery Houses of the Legislature." which they need. How is it in the case of him Now, there is an express provision to furnish who is here the special reporter of this Conven- the members of this Convention with such station? Do we not furnish him his stationery? Is tionery as is provided by law to the Legishe limited to the amount of thirty dollars? Does lature. What can it mean except the employees it not come out of the contingent expenses of this and attaches of this Convention? As the minorConvention, which are amply sufficient to cover ity report justly says, these reporters are a part the stationery that is needed? But I will not of the Convention; they have a place on undertake to argue the question any further. It the floor; they are appointed by the Presiseems to me it is clear and distinct, and hardly dent. We have the express power with these needs elucidation. last words to furnish the stationery if we see fit. Mr. C. L. ALLEN -I hope the Convention on Now, let us walk right up, either one way or this occasion will preserve some consistency. the other; do not put it on the want of power, for We voted a few days ago that we had no power it is in the law. If we think these reporters to make an appropriation of this character, and ought not to have thirty dollars apiece for we sustained the report of this committee, on this stationery, let us vote down this appropriation very point we are now discussing. That commit- of four hundred and fifty dollars and get rid of tee, I have no doubt, felt themselves instructed this matter. bythe previous vote which we had given,to make Mr. McDONALD - Does the gentleman claim the report they did. They would have felt as if that every person allowed the liberty of this they were reporting against the express decision floor is a part of this Convention? of the Convention on the point submitted to them Mr. WEED - As usual, the interrogatory of the previously to this time if they had reported differ- gentleman has no bearing on the question at issue. ently. Now, what do we do? Instead of recon- I claim the reporters stand, in this respect, in the sidering the vote on the former day, which, if it same position that the clerks stand. They are was incorrect would be proper for us to do, we persons amenable to the laws of this Convention; vote now to sustain the report of the minority they can be punished for breaches of faith, on against the report of the majority of this commit- the floor; they can be 'controlled in the Contee, giving the majority a rebuke for obeying vention. us in a previous vote on the same question. I Mr. McDONALD - Are all persons admitted hope we will preserve some consistency, and to the privileges of this floor under the control refuse to adopt the report of the minority. of the Convention? Mr. WEED-A word with reference to the Mr. WEED - In one sense they are, in another power of this Convention to make this order for they are not. stationery, but before I read from the statute I Mr. McDONALD -In what sense are they will simply say in answer to the gentleman who controlled? has just taken his seat, that if we rebuke the Mr. WEED-They are controlled in no sense, 631 except that we can control and shove them out of Rockland does not undertake to limit the the door. It is a simple, plain question, and the amount which the Secretary shall furnish. authority is here demonstrated in the minority The committee came to the conclusion that was report for expending four hundred and fifty dollars an objectionable feature, so far as the two differed, for this purpose. We have spent twice that and they differed in no essential respect except in amount of money in discussing it. that one particular. The committee say they are Mr. FERRY-The committee to whom this of the opinion ihat they formerly held, and for matter was intrusted attempted to treat it fairly. that reason they are unwilling to change their They felt the duty imposed upon them of doing action. They do not feel willing to authorize the what was right. They felt, also, it was more granting of a donation for the reasons they have agreeable to grant favors to applicants whom they already stated. In addition, they considered the regarded favorably than to withhold them. They question decided in the Convention by its action on discussed this question, as they thought, fairly. the former report. Now, that is what they say, In their former report they considered the ques- and for that reason I ask that this resolution of the tion of power and they came to the conclusion, minority be not adopted. The committee will bear for reasons they have spread before this Conven- me out in saying that the position in which the tion, and which they thought demonstrated committee or its members have been placed has been that this Convention had no power to grant a rather unpleasant one. They have provoked it. The act to which the gentleman from hostile articles from one of the newspapers of this Clinton [Mr. Weed] refers, in my judgment city, censuring the members of this committee, excludes all except members and officers by and particularly its chairman, and censuring also its terms. It says members and officers shall members of the Convention. I hope that be furnished with stationery, and then "the this Convention, under the circumstances, Convention" is to be furnished with stationery. will stand by the report of this committee. Unless he claims these reporters or officers I can- If it should not; if there is to be a retracnot understand why he can say by the act that tion entirely, even without a reconsideration, they should be furnished with stationery. This if the Convention retraces its steps and adopt committee considered the question whether they the minority report, I confess I shall have owed a debt to these men, and in what attitude but little heart in attempting to discharge my they were placed in this Convention, and they, I duties as a member of the Committee on Conbelieve. treated the reporters with a good deal of tengent Expenses. I do not wish to receive respect; they had no reason to do otherwise. abuse from outsiders for my conduct simply They came to the conclusion that they owed no for doing what I feel to be my duty. As I said debt to these men, that they were on the floor by before, I know the claims of men who ask favors the courtesy of the Convention, that they were of me, and I am sorry to receive abuse from anyin the service of their employers, the proprietors body for my conduct in the honest discharge of of the various papers throughout the State, per- my duty. forming a very laudable business but which was Mr. MORRIS -I desire to say in this connecnot necessary for the purposes of this Convention. tion that several of the reporters here have made They next considered the question whether they a request to me that I would state to the memhad any power to make a donation, and they came bers of the Convention that they have no desire to the conclusion they had not. These facts were to receive this stationery. It is a source of emspread before the Convention. It is true some barrassment to them that this subject has occuremarks that were considered rather sharp were pied so much of the time of the Convention. To introduced in the report, but there was no use the argument of the distinguished gentleman intention to give offense to any one; and with from Westchester [Mr. Greeley] who said that the a most respectful consideration for every one, committee did not favor the extension of th.e they introduced what they did in their report. franchise to women because they did not want it, I took occasion to go to some of the gentlemen I think the best way to settle the matter is to dewho thought there was an affront in the report cline to give the stationery to these gentlemen and I asked them to carefully read it and see because they have not asked it. whether it could bear any such construction as it Mr. BAKER - If it is in order I will offer an was said they put upon it. I do not yield to any amendment which I suppose will accommodate man in obedience to the claims of friendship. ~ It all parties in this Convention. It is a sort of cornwould have been much more gratifying to me, if 1 promise. After the word "Resolved" insert as had been at liberty, to grant this favor to these follows: "That each reporter be paid the amount reporters, some of whom I have known and es- necessary for stationery out of the per diem alteemed for years. But I have felt constrained by lowance of the members of this Convention." the promptings of duty to take part in such a [Laughter.] report as this committee have given. The reasons The question was put on the amendment of Mr. for that report were given to this Convention. Baker and it was declared carried. [Laughter.] They deliberately acted upon it and sustained it Mr. WEED- I wish to offer an amendment to by a large majority. Immediately upon that vote make it pr'o rata. being announced the gentleman from Rockland Mr. BELL —I protest against this. I do not [Mr. Conger] arose and offered this resolution think the subject should be treated with this cow pending. I first supposed it was offered trifling. I think the reporters have some rights inder a misapprehension of the vote; but in a in this matter. If the amount is to be denied, as comparison of the two there is just this difference, I presume it will be, let it be denied at once; but tiat the resolution of the gentleman from let no subterfuge be resorted to. 632 Mr. CHESEBRO - I desire to explain my vote. On a former occasion when a report was made allowing reporters thirty dollars for stationery, under an inadvertence, I voted against the appropriation. I am in favor of the proposition of the gentleman from Rockland [Mr. Conger] of allowing the reporters such an amount of stationery as is necessary for the purpose of performing their duties. I have no doubt from what I have heard members say, that many of them voted on that occasion under the same misapprehension that I did. Since my attention has been called to the law under which this Convention is organized, I am satisfied we have the right to make the appropriation, and I shall vote for the proposition of the gentleman from Rockland. Mr. HAND - I would ask if we have the right to pass such a resolution-whether the subject is not closed upon us by the statute? The PRESIDENT pro tern. - It is not in the province of the Chair to decide that question. Mr. VAN CAMPEN - If a resolution of that kind passes, all this Convention cannot interfere with my drawing my per diem. I am not in the power of the Convention in that matter. My per diem is provided for by statute; no action of this Convention can cut off that per diem, unless I forfeit my seat in this Convention. Mr. ALVORD - I wish to say to the gentleman [Mr. Van Campen], and four others, if they do not desire to pay their share I will pay it for them. Mr. SHERMAN -I move to reconsider the vote by which the amendment of the gentleman from Montgomery [Mr. Baker] was adopted. The PRESIDENT pro tem.- The motion will lie on the table under the rule. Mr. SHERMAN- Does not that carry the whole subject over? The PRESIDENT pro tem.- The Chair would ordinarily decide that it would, but as the rule on the subject of the reconsideration of a vote, is peculiar, it must be treated peculiarly. The rule provides that any member may move a reconsideration and that the motion shall lie on the table. Ordinarily, the motion going to the table would take with it the whole subject, and that effect could only be prevented by the House refusing to lay upon the table. But here is a peremptory rule that the motion shall go upon the table. But see what would follow, if the motion took with it to the table the whole subject. In the course of the day's deliberation, the whole business of the Convention would be upon the table. For any member dissatisfied with the result of a vote can of right move a reconsideration, which motion goes to the table under the rule, and if it takes with it the subject-matter, the Convention would find itself at the mercy of any member who sincerely or capriciously should continue to move the reconsideration of every vote, as he might do. Hence the Chair holds, that the rule being (as far as he is informed) anomalous, there must be under it an anomalous ruling, in order to keep the House in motion with its business. Mr. SHERMAN - Suppose the minority report is adopted, what would become of the amendment of the gentleman from Montgomery [Mr. Baker]? The PRESIDENT pro ter.-The Chair supposes the amendment of the gentleman from Montgomery [Mr. Baker], which has been adopted, becomes the amendment of the gentleman from Onondaga [Mr. Corbett], which was that the minority report be substituted for the majority report, and hence the motion, if carried, is that the necessary stationery be furnished, to be paid for out of the per diem compensation of the members. Mr. SHERMAN -I ask the unanimous consent of the Convention to reconsider the vote on the amendment of the gentleman from Montgomery [Mr. Baker], now. SEVERAL DELEGATES - " object." Mr. COOKE- It seems to me the question has now got in such a form that we cannot pass the resolution with any kind of justice to the gentleman in whose behalf the application is made, or credit to ourselves. For the purpose, therefore, of affording opportunity to move a reconsideration of the last vote, I move that the subject for the present be laid on the table. Mr. WEED - I withdraw my amendment. Mr. COOKE -The last vote taken was on the amendment of the gentleman from Montgomery [Mr. Baker]. The PRESIDENT pro ter. - It was. Mr. COOKE -Now it stands in such a way that I do not think we can with much propriety pass the resolution. I understand there is a motion made to reconsider that vote. For the purpose of enabling that motion to come up, I move now to lay the subject on the table. The question was put on the motion of Mr. Cooke, and it was declared carried, on a division, by a vote of 73 to 16. Mr. LAPHAM - I call up the resolution offered by myself, and which will be found on page 244 of the Journal, to reconsider the vote by which rule 29, reported by the select Committee on Rules, was rejected. Mr. VEEDER-Are not reports from select committees now in order? The PRESIDENT pro tem.- That is the order of business at the present time. Mr. LAPHAM - It is under that order of business, that I make the motion to reconsider the vote upon the report of a select committee. The PRESIDENT pro tem. - The Chair supposes it would be in order. The Chair will state the question. When the report of the select Committee on Rules came in, they had a rule providing for the enforcement of the previous question. That was stricken out. Mr. Lapham gave notice of a motion to reconsider the vote by which that was stricken out. The question is whether the Convention will reconsider the vote by which the rule referring to the previous question was stricken from the body of the rules reported by the select Committee on Rules. The question was then put on the motion to reconsider, and it was declared carried. The SECRETARY read the rule, as follows: RULE 29. The previous question shall be. " Shall the main question be now put?" and if deter mined in the affirmative, no further debate o' amendment shall be in order, and the main quetion shall be on the passage of the resolution (r other matter under consideration; but whnh 633 amendments shall be pending, the question shall be first taken on the amendments in their order: and when amendments shall have been recommended by the Committee of the Whole, and not acted on by the Convention, the question shall be taken upon such amendments in like order. Mr. GERRY-I offer the following amendment by way of substitute for the rule as originally proposed: RULE 29. The Convention may at any time, by a vote of a majority of all its members present and voting, limit the time which its members shall respectively occupy in the discussion of any motion or resolution, and the resolution to limit the time of debate shall be deemed a privileged motion and shall be decided without amendment or debate My object in offering this substitute is to do away with some difficulty which seems previously to have existed in the minds of many of the members of this Convention in relation to this rule of the previous question. Now, there are few of us who have listened during the past six weeks to the long and elaborate debates of a purely political nature which have occupied the time of this honorable body in reference to the question of negro suffrage, without feeling convinced that it would shortly become necessary, for the proper regulation and government of the proceedings of this Convention, that some rule should be adopted, the practical effect of which would be to prevent an endless discussion on subjects not of material importance, and yet at the same time to secure to every member the right to be heard on matters about which there may be considerable difference of opinion. My object in offering this resolution as a substitute for what is commonly and generally known as the " previous question," is to secure to all gentlemen of this Convention a fair and just opportunity of being heard in relation to any particular proposition on which they may desire to speak, and at the same time to limit the time to be occupied by them in speaking in such manner that the time of this Convention shall not be needlessly and unnecessarily wasted and frittered away in the discussion of questions which cannot be of moment to the Convention or to the people at large. I offer this resolution, therefore, in the hope that it will be adopted instead of the rule of the previous question, because it leaves in the hands of the Convention the right itself to regulate from time to time, as the exigencies of the case may require, the length of time individual members shall occupy in the discussion of the questions before it. Mr. McDONALD - I can see no advantage in the resolution offered by the gentleman from New York [Mr. Gerry] over the rules as they are now in force. During any time the Convention has any subject under consideration, it has the power to consider and pass any resolution with regard to it. Thus the point made by the resolution, that it shall be a privileged question, gives no real advantage for the reason that I have stated. So that if I am right, the resolution offered by the gentleman amounts to nothing. This power already belongs to this Convention, and this proposition does not change it. If it is intended as a substitute for the previous question, 80 it is simply of no advantage whatever. As hIs been seen in this Convention during this long discussion, we have passed resolutions on the motions of different gentlemen authorizing a modification of the rules regulating debate. We first passed the twenty minute rule, and we passed it immediately for this reason, that it was with regard to a question under consideration. Then we passed the five minute rule; and if I remember aright, we passed that immediately because it related to the question under consideration. But for the reason that this rule would add nothing to the power of the Convention in controlling its debates, I am opposed to it. I hope the old and well known method of the previous question will be adopted by this Convention, so that the majority can get a vote when they wish it. Mr. VEEDER-I understand that the object of this motion is that the Convention shall adopt a rule establishing in this body the previous question. Now, I agree with many gentlemen on the floor of this Convention, that much time has been spent unnecessarily and to no purpose. But, sir, I do not fully understand the object at this time of attempting to incorporate in the rules of the Convention a provision of this character. If the question on suffrage would bear ventilation, then I submit that the other questions which probably will come before this Convention also ought to stand investigation and ventilation. I cannot understand this object, unless, perhaps, some question is about to arise, in the Convention which certain gentlemen do not desire to have discussed and fully presented before the people. If that is their object, if they are successful they will accomplish their purpose in stifling debate. But I submit that there is no necessity for the previous question in this body. The Convention, by rule, limited the debate to five minutes, which proved to be a very useful rule. Members presented their propositions and were confined to two speeches on each side. I submit that that rule has not worked very injuriously. But if this previous question is to prevail certain gentlemen may occupy the floor for the desired length of time, and then we will be met with the previous question, and gentlemen who may desire to answer and controvert the propositions that may have been presented will find themselves in a dilemma; for when the previous question is moved upon them they can make no reply whatever. Now, I think this matter ought to be left to the good sense of the members of this Convention. They ought to be allowed, if they desire, to present their views on any particular question submitted to them. If they make a mistake by unnecessarily occupying the time of the Convention that mistake can be brought to their attention. But if now we are to have the previous question, in my judgment it will work harshly upon the minority, and perhaps harshly upon some gentlemen in the majority who may desire to express their views on the particular subjects that may come before the Convention. I submit we should have no rule of this character. Our time is unlimited. If we cannot afford to sit here and fairly and fully discuss the various propositions that may be presented, why we can present our resignations to the President and return to our 634 constituency, and allow them to return here a in our deliberations what a Convention can do new member. I am satisfied, for one, that the when it is disposed to suppress debate. We met people desire a full and elaborate discussion upon here this morning with, I think, some twenty-two all subjects of importance that may be pre- propositions on the table. upon every one of which sented to this Convention. The people do not the gentlemen who iutroduced them could have desire when an important subject is pre- called the ayes and noes. Upon everyone ofthem sented here that its ventilation and discussion speechesof five minutes' length could be made; but should be cut off by the previous question. by a simple resolution suggested by myself, and My experience has been that the most obnoxious modified on the motion of the gentleman from measures, and the most obnoxious provisions that Oneida [Mr. Sherman] the whole business was ever have been enacted by the Legislature of this swept from the table in the space of some two State, were enacted under the operation of the hours, and could have been swept away in a previous question. Propositions were presented much less space of time-and all this in the absence to the Legislature to which there was strong oppo- of the previous question. Now, the main objecsition, but the excuse was given that time was tion to the previous question is this; not that it valuable, the end of the session was approaching, cuts off debate, but that it prevents any gentleand that it was necessary to move the previous men upon either side of this body introducing any question, and the bill would be run through with amendment upon any subject, however important scarce a single' member knowing anything about it may be. I think if we are to have a previous its provisions. question it ought to be modified in that respect so Mr. MERRITT —Will the gentleman allow me as to allow gentlemen to submit propositions, and to ask him whether any bad result would grow let them be voted upon that we may present in out of such legislation, in case the legislation the proper way our views, and be enabled to were to be submitted to the people for their review make any argument upon them. There is a and decision? great deal of exaggeration in what has been Mr. VEEDER - That is very well, so far as the said in regard to the deliberations of this body. final verdict on a proposition is concerned. But, in We have not been here two months. Of all the order to enable the people to vote intelligently on a time we have been here between to-day and the proposition, we should present it to them with the 4th of June, we have been absent a great many discussions which have been had on that subject. days, either for our own comfort and convenience For this purpose, I am opposed to the introduction or for the necessary recreation incident to a sumof a rule incorporating the previous question mer session. The great amount of time we have stifling debate. occupied las been in the committee-rooms. More Mr. GREELEY-The question must always be hours have been occupied there than in this room; considered whether there is time to do what is and the result of the deliberations in the comdemanded on one side or the other. We have mittee-rooms will be very soon introduced in the been two months, nearly, in session, and we have reports to this body. Sir, instead of being six almost passed one article. We have twenty weeks in discussing the question of suffrage, let articles, at least, yet to act upon: and some of me say to my friend on the other side that we them present very grave and profound questions. commenced the consideration of this subject only Now, then, I am willing to stay here so long as is three weeks ago last Tuesday, and that some five consistent with the higher right of the people to or six days of that time have been occupied in the have these questions discussed before them in consideration of other questions. their town halls, their meeting-houses and their Mr. LAPHAMI-Does the gentleman approve or school-houses, as they will desire them discussed disapprove of the article in a daily paper of this before they pass upon this Constitution. There morning in which the majority of this Convention are now, from this time to the election, three was charged with wasting the time of the Conmonths-August, September, October. I am vention thus far in useless discussions? willing to divide the time, and let the Convention Mr. E. BROOKS-My answer to that is I have take half of it and the people have the other not seen any such article, have not read it, and half. I think they will need that much, and am not, therefore, prepared to give any opinion are entitled to it. If we can get through in six upon it. But I am prepared to say in reply to weeks-which is certainly all we ought to take, the gentleman who puts the question to me, that after spending two months of this time-if we if he will take the reports of this Convention day can get through within that time, and let the peo- by day, and man by man, it will be found upon an pie have the rest, very well: I shall be willing to examination that the majority of this body have let debate run on interminably. But, believing occupied very much more time than the minoritythat it is urgently, predominantly necessary that and time altogether out of proportion even to their there shall be ample time to discuss the merits relative majority over the minority. That is quite and demerits of this Constitution before that high apparent I think. But I regret the gentleman has court of appeals, the people, I insist that we shall introduced any such question as that-a quesso shape our rules, and so gauge our time and our tion which I have no desire to enter upon. labors,' as to finish our work here, at the very What I said the other day was in sincerity and farthest, by the middle of September. 1 believe truth. It is the very best possible thing for thA this can only be done under very stringent rules. constituents who sent me here, and for the great After what has been seen and heard here of the body of the people of the State. I desire that disposition to debate, I will support and vote for everything shall be done decently, and in orderthe demand for the previous question. not to abuse discussion on the one side, nor to Mr. E. BROOKS -We have seen this morning abridge it on the other. I hope, therefore, inas 635 much as it is in the power of the majority to do Convention, without distinction of party, will be next week precisely what was done to-day, that in favor of passing the rule that we all confess is, either limit the discussion to five minutes upon should have been passed when the rules were any question or to ten minutes, or a smaller num- originally brought before us for our consideration. ber of minutes, if there is any disposition to Mr. WEED-I do not care to go into discussion abuse the time, they will resort to rules like this about the alteration of the five-minute rule or rather than the previous question, which is now any other rule; but if the members of this Conproposed. vention who desire to arrive at a proper concluMr. ALVORD -I would ask the gentleman sion upon the several matters which we have to who has last addressed us in Convention what is discuss, will but for a moment think and not allow the practical operation, as we have seen it for the themselves to be led off by their passion, one way past few days, of this five-minute rule? Under or the other, or by the abuses that may have been this rule two persons have spoken upon each practiced during the discussion of the last three side five minutes upon each amendment piled weeks, they will see the previous question, in the upon amendment, with hardly a variation in lan- manner moved by the gentleman from Ontario guage and none in the sense of the various [Mr. Lapham], is not what they want or what any amendments. We have been now three days on man upon this floor wants, the majority as well as the one single subject, the question of suffrage, the minority; and that they can afford to have under that five-minute rule. Another thing, sir; it. If the Convention will bear with me the gentleman [Mr. E. Brooks] says it is in the for a moment, I will attempt to show them power of the Convention to control this matter as why. It is admitted on all sides that the we have controlled it to-day. Thanksto the reso- previous question is to cut off improper and lution originally introduced by him, although unreasonable debate and that is all it should be somewhat altered by the consent of the Conven- used for. Now we get a report from the Canal tion by the gentleman from Oneida [Mr. Sherman], Committee or any other committee of twenty we finally have been relieved from this five- sections of vital importance to the State, and the minute rule of endless debate on never ending first section comes up and is discussed for four amendments. We want this previous question days or four weeks, and the chairman of that for what? To avoid the necessity of entering committee without an opportunity to discuss the into an interminable debate when the subject residue of that report in any way, or without an in the report of the Committee on Revision shall opportunity to suggest an amendment; without come again before us, which would be caused by an opportunity for the majority or minority to opening the whole question, and permitting amend- bring it before the Convention-I say that the ments upon amendments to be piled up mountain chairman of that committee, and perhaps the high until the time of the Convention expires. Convention itself, getting disgusted with the manThe practical operation of these subterfuges is to ner in which the debate has progressed on that take out of the power of this Convention the right question, moves the previous question. What to say how far the debate shall go in this mat- does it do? It goes to the whole report, and no ter. Now, where the debate shall open legiti- amendment, no suggestion, no change, no cormately, where it is proper to the subject under rection can be made in the report after consideration, I doubt whether any man would you have ordered the previous question upon take the responsibility, either as one of the major- the first section. I ask if there is a man ity or alone, to press upon the members of this on this floor who wants the previous question Convention the previous question. It is only for under such circumstances; and yet the gentleman the purpose, when the time shall come, in the from Onondaga [Mr. Alvord], knowing as well as estimation of all the members of the Convention, any man in this Convention the working of such that enough has been said on the subject, that the a rule, sees in a moment where it will lead them, previous question will, in my opinion, be used for as all who will think must see it. Mr. President, the purpose of bringing the Convention to its I am willing that a rule for the previous question, bearings and its duty. Another thing, sir; it limited in its application, should be passed; I am has got to have the support of the majority willing a previous question should be passed that of the Convention at each time when the will cut off debate on all these little resolutions, todo call is made for the previous question. away with all the annoyances we have here and Another thing sir; in the way in which we have upon which the great bulk of our time has been been proceeding for the last six weeks or two taken. I am willing the previousquestion should be months in this Convention, we shall have a pre- passed to reach such cases; but when you come vious question from the people ringing in our ears to the discussion of articles to be embodied in the on the first day of next November, if we get Constitution, you do not want a previous question, tlhere. We cannot get by it, and we shall find the and no gentleman on this floor can say it is, necesprevious question cutting us off in the very middle sary after the rules we have adopted and under of the debate; when we shall have left remaining the rulings of the Chair on the several motions at the close of our labors, some nine or ten of the made on the discussion of the suffrage question. twenty articles to be considered by the Conven- Mr. ALVORD - Will the gentleman permit me tion. It is for this reason ([ here state for myself to ask him a question? positively, as far as I am individually concerned Mr. WEED- Certainly. as one of the majority) that there is no desire Mr. ALVORD-I ask him whether he supposes or design to use wrongfully this power which this previous question applies to the Committee ofj should reside in every legislative body. I hope the Whole? and trust that the good sense of the entire of this Mr. WEED- No. sir. 636 Mr. ALVORD- Then there is certainly every opportunity for a full discussion. Mr. WEED —I do not think it applies to the Committee of the Whole. Still it may, for there is now no provision that it shall not, and there is a rule that all rules of the Convention shall apply to the Committee of the Whole. But I understand exactly the trouble in the Committee of the Whole. It is but another step in that direction the gentleman must see. He knows we did not discuss a single section of the report of the Suffrage Committee in the Committee of the Whole, except the first. He knows the whole delay was upon the first section in the Committee of the Whole, and we had to come into Convention on the five minute rule to discuss the rest of it. You may be tired with all the discussion in the Committee of the Whole on the first section, and then report to the Convention, and the discussion upon it comes up, and before the discussion is exhausted you have to apply the rule of the previous question to the first section, and thus you have no opportunity to perfect the other sections. Now I suggest this is an amendment (and it seems to me to be the simplest way to expedite business), that this rule be passed applying it to everything except articles or sections of the Constitution. Then, when an article or section of the Constitution is under discussion, any gentleman upon the floor of this Convention can move to take the vote upon this question in one hour, in two hours or in twenty-four hours from that time without discussion, and he can sweep the five minute rule off entirely, and can move we take the vote without discussion, and fix the time so that all the members of this body will know when a vote is to be taken on the sections of the proposed Constitution which are important, and obviate the whole difficulty. I offer, therefore, this as an amendment: add the following: " But such previous question shall not apply to the discussion of articles or sections of the proposed Constitution." This will leave the previous question to apply to everything except articles and sections proposed for the Constitution, and then, under the rule we now have, whenever the debate has sufficiently progressed on a particular section, some gentleman can move that a vote be taken at a certain hour, and upon all the propositions without debate, and you have a perfect previous question, or what is better, you have something under which you can consider the different propositions under consideration, and, if need be, consider them without debate. Mr. VEEDER-I rise to a point of order. The motion made by the gentleman from Ontario [Mr. Lapham was to reconsider the vote on the rejection of a certain rule. By examining the Journal, it will be seen that the rule he sets forth is not the rule which was rejected by the Convention. I call the attention of the President to page 244 of the document, where Mr. Lapham gave notice of a motion to reconsider the vote, by which the following rule was rejected, and the Journal goes on to state what that rule was. Then I call the attention of the President to page 39 of the Journal and to rule 29, and I submit that no such rule as is referred to by the motion of the honorable gentleman [Mr. Lapham] was ever voted upon by the Convention. The rule there discussed and voted upon was this: " The previous question shall be, 'shall the main question be now put?' and if determined in the affirmative, no further debate or amendment shall be in order, and the main question shall be on the passage of the resolution or other matter under consideration; but when amendments shall be pending, the question shall be first taken on the amendments in their order, and when amendments shall have been recommended by the Committee of the Whole, and not acted on by tho Convention, the question shall be taken upon sucl amendments in like order. " The gentleman refers to a rule of this kind: " The previous question shall be, 'shall the main question be now put?' and it shall be discussed without debate." No such rule was ever proposed by the committee. Nowhere did the Committee on Rules report such a rule, that when the previous question was moved the motion should be decided without debate; but it is a rule simple and plain upon its face. The PRESIDENT pro ter. - The Chair decides the point of order is not well taken, for it holds that no member of the Convention could be deceived by that mere difference in verbiage. Mr. VEEDER- I respectfully submit that it is a very important proposition, the question whether a motion lor a previous question shall be discussed without debate or not. That never was in the rule. The PRESIDENT pro tern. - That is suscepti. ble of amendment. The point of order raised by the gentleman from Kings [Mr. Veeder] was that the motion to reconsider made by the gentleman from Ontario [Mr. Lapham] was a rule differing in phraseology from the one proposed. Mr. VEEDER —It is a different rule from that reported by the committee. The PRESIDENT pro tenm.- The Chair rules there was no deception in that matter, for it was a mere difference in the verbiage. Mr. VEEDER- Will the Chair allow me a moment? Under rule 29, as reported by the Committee on Rules, they made no provision prohibiting debate on a motion for the previous question. The PRESIDENT pro ten. -The Chair rules that rule 29, as reported by the committee is before the Convention now under the motion to reconsider, which motion has been carried. Mr. LAPHAM - Allow me to suggest that a complete answer to the point of order raised by the gentleman from Kings [Mr. Veeder] is to be found in the fact that the Convention have reconsidered the vote by which rule 29 was adopted, and that the subject is now before the Convention. The PRESIDENT pro tem. - The point of order lhas been ruled on. Mr. GERRY-I desire, sir, simply to call the attention of the Convention to the amendment offered by the gentleman from Clinton [Mr. Weed], and to say in reference to that, that if he will modify it in such a way a@ to cause it to redc 637 " such resolutions shall not apply to the Committee as well answered by other more simple parliamenof the Whole," I will accept it. It was an amend- tary forms, and, therefore, it should not be favorment to my amendment as I understand it. ed, but restricted within as narrow limits as posThe SECRETARY proceeded to read the amend- sible." ment of Mr. Weed as follows: Now, sir, if it were possible to " answer the use " But such previous question shall not apply to of it" in the present Convention by more simple articles or sections of the proposed Constitution." parliamentary forms; if a substitute for it would Mr. RUMSEY-I propose to add to the amend- be as effective, but less obnoxious than the rule ment of the gentleman from Clinton [Mr. Weed], as already reported here, I see no reason why "in Committee of the Whole," so- this should not be done; and I desire to call the atThe PRESIDENT pro tem.-The Chair will in- tention of the Convention to one or two facts conform the gentleman, [Mr. Rumsey] that two nected with the effect of the substitute I have amendments are already pending. just offered. In the first place it is practically in The question was then put upon the amendment effect now. It has been already acted upon once of Mr. Weed, and it was declared lost. during the past two weeks in the limitation of Mr. WEED-As the Convention has voted time, in the discussion of the suffrage question down the amendment which I offered, I now pro- and the reason it did not then prevail effectually pose to offer an amendment which I believe to be to stop unnecessary speeches, was because the the next best thing, and I may say in offering form of the resolution then adopted was not suffithis amendment, that I have no desire to protract ciently stringent to enable it to be effectual. In the debate upon any question in this body, and the next place, by the terms of this have just as much desire as the gentleman from amendment there is no deprivation of the Onondaga, [Mr. Alvord], or any other gentle- power of the Convention at any time to limit man to get at the particular matters before specifically the debate on any particular question us and discuss them as quick as they can which may come up before it for discussion, but be decided understandingly. I propose to it may, in its judgment, as it shall see fit, so add at the end of the proposed rule the regulate and so gauge this question that each following, so that when the previous question particular proposition shall have its due time for is ordered it may not take with it the whole ar- discussion before this body. Again, by the proticle under consideration and not give an oppor- viso, that the resolution limiting the time it shall tunity to amend the residue of the article or sec- be deemed a privileged question, and shall be tion under consideration at all: decided without debate, all unnecessary dis"But such previous question shall only carry cussion of the amount of time to be appropriated the vote to the resolution, paragraph or section, to any particular question is entirely done away then pending, or to the amendments then pend- with, and then it remains wholly with the Coning to such paragraph or section." vention to determine what time shall be devoted The question was put on the amendment of to each particular question limited by its imMr. Weed, and, on a division, it was declared lost, portance, and by its practical utility. I submit, by a vote of 51 to 59. therefore, to the gentleman of the Convention, The PRESIDENT pro tern. then announced the that by the amendment which I have sugpending question to be on the amendment offered gested, the benefits of the previous question by Mr. Gerry. will undoubtedly be gained without the disadvanMr. GERRY-My reason for offering this tages which must result, in a certain degree, by amendment as a substitute for the original rule as the adoption of that rule at the present time, and reported by the select Committee on Rules, was without prejudicing the rights of any one. because I supposed, from the almost unanimous Mr. HALE -I move to amend by substituting decision of the Convention just made to reconsider the rule to be found at the bottom of page 54 of the vote by which the rule when first reported the Journal. was discarded, that it was the intention of the The SECRETARY proceeded to read the amendConvention, or at least of a majority of its mem- ment of Mr. Hale, as follows: bers in reccnsidering such rule, to adopt it here- RULE 29. The Convention may at any time, by after for all practical purposes. Allow me to say a vote of a majority of all its members present a few words in support of the amendment which and voting, fix the time at which any vote shall I have offered. This is a substitute for the previ- be taken, and limit the time which its members ous question. Referring to the standard work on shall respectively occupy in the discussion of any parliamentary law, Jefferson's Manual, section 34, motion or resolution; and the resolution to fix the I find the reasons there given for the adoption of time for taking such vote, or to limit the time of the previous question to be as follows: debate, shall be deemed a privileged motion, and "The proper occasion for the previous question shall be decided without amendment or debate. is, when a subject is brought forward of a delicate Mr. HALE - Mr. President, it has become very nature as to high personages, etc., or the discus- evident to members of this Convention that we sion of which may call forth observations, have got to adopt some provision like the previous which might be of injurious consequences. Then question, or substantially equivalent to it, in order the previous question is proposed, and, in the to get through with our business and finish our modern usage, the discussion of the main ques- debates. But as the Convention has once voted tion is suspended, and the debate confined to the by a large majority against the adoption of the previous question. The use of it has been ex- previous question and inasmuch as the pretended abusively to other cases: but in these, it vious question has some features which is an embarrassing procedure; its uses would be are objectionable, and which do not belong 638 to the rule proposed by the gentleman from New weeks of our time, would, if the whole subject had York, amended as I propose, it seems to me it to be gone over again. occupy half of the time of will be more consistent for us to adopt that rule the session of this Convention. There is no other than to reverse our former action by adopting the mode in which the well-disposed members of this previous question in terms. Tile adoption of this Convention- and I assume that we are all well rule will make privileged motions both the motion disposed - can bring to a proper determination to fix the hour for taking the vote on any ques- the result of our labors except by having the pretion and that to limit the length of time that gen- vious question to be used when it is necestiemen shall speak, so that we will have it in our sary to cut off useless and protracted debate power to end discussion at almost any time. and cut off frivolous and unnecessary amendments, Mr. GERRY-I accept the amendment of the and to cut off a repetition of amendments which gentleman from Essex [Mr. Hale]. are precisely the same thing, although changed Mr. LAPHAM —I am opposed to this amend- slightly from the form in which they have been ment or to any amendment which proposes a passed upon. There is no other mode in which departure from the adoption of the usual rule in we can bring our labors to a termination and it is regard to the previous question. The amendment for this reason, and with no desire or design, let of the gentleman from New York [Mr. Gerry] me assure members of this Convention, so far as I adds nothing whatever to the powers belonging am concerned, to use this rule harshly, unjustly, to this body under the rules as they now exist. I or improperly at untimely points of debates, that would call the attention of the members of this I have called up for the consideration of this ConConvention to the repeated efforts of the chair- vention the motion to reconsider the vote by which man of the Committee on the Right of Suffrage the previous question was stricken out of the re[Mr. Greeley] to have a rule adopted fixing the port of the select Committee on Rules. I hope time for taking the vote upon his report, and to that the amendment of the gentleman from New have a rule adopted limiting the time of debate York [Mr. Gerry] will not prevail, and that we upon that report. Day after day, at every session shall adopt the previous question as it is used of the Convention, that gentleman has persist- customarily in parliamentary bodies, without any ently tried to get such a rule adopted, but has design whatever to use it in any other way, except been defeated by lengthy and protracted debates. that which the parliamentary law teaches. Mr. HALE -I would ask the gentleman [Mr. The question was then put on the amendment Lapham] whether the defeat of such propositions of Mr. Gerry and it was declared lost. has not always been owing either to debate or Mr. GERRY-I offer the following further amendment, and whether the provision that such amendment: a vote shall be taken without amendment or Insert in the second line of such rule, after the debate will not insure the success of such an word "affirmative," the words "by a two-thirds effort hereafter. vote of those present and voting." Mr. LAPHAM-Not at all. It in no way modi- My object in offering this further amendment is, fies the difficulty in my judgment, and will not for the purpose of testing the sincerity of the deshorten our action when it becomes necessary to clarations of the gentleman from Ontario [Mr. do so. Where is the danger or hardship of adopt- Lapham], that there is no desire on his part, by ing the previous question? Until the majority of moving to restore this rule of the previous questhis Convention are satisfied that sufficient debate tion, to cut off debate, and that the " well-disposed has been had upon any proposition, or upon any members" of the maj)rity party of this Convensection which may be reported by a committee, tion will not resort to the previous question, exthe previous question cannot be ordered. It cept to cut off frivolous amendments; and also requires a vote of the majority to order it in all that there is no desire on the part of such gencases, and all apprehension which gentlemen tlemen to enforce the rule in reference to the preexpress here is directly an imputation upon the vious question " harshly." By this amendment good faith of the majority, who, it is supposed, will which I now offer the power is given call for the previous question. They will not to two thirds of the members of the Conresort -to it capriciously and injuriously and cut vention present, to regulate and govern off debate and discussion. There is no desire to the exercise of the previous question, and its do anything of that kind. I call the attention of enforcement whenever it may become necessary. this Convention to the liberality which has been As the rule now stands, and as offered by the exercised up to this hour in indulging the debate gentleman from Ontario [Mr Lapham], it is to be upon every proposition that has been submitted enforced at the will of a mere majority vote of for the consideration of this Convention. But, members present. The amendment which I offer air, we have now spent nearly two months of the requires the acquiescence of two-thirds of those time allowed to us for the revision of the Consti- present and voting, and thus protects the rights tution of this State, and we have not yet of the minority against undue or partisan oppresfinished the report of a single committee, sion. we have simply adopted the report of one of the Mr. HUTCHINS - Mr. President - [cries of committees and have handed it over to another "No," "No"] I was merely going to observe that committee for further revision, and when it comes the gentleman who last spoke [Mr Gerry] voted, back here, unless we have the previous question, when the motion was before the Convention origiwe may again spend three weeks more in discuss- nally, to strike out the rule for the previous quesing questions which will arise upon the report of tion, against striking out. It seems that he has that committee, and thus the report of the Suf- changed his mind since that time in that respect. frage Committee, after having occupied three I have also changed my miud. I voted against 639 the previous question, and I propose now to was rejected, and, moreover, the motion was change my vote and vote the other way, and as carried by a vote of eighty-one, whicl is a he voted then. majority of all elected to the Convention, and so Mr. GERRY- And the reason of my changing is in strict compliance with the rules of this my vote now is best explained by the remarks body. that fell from the lips of the gentleman from On- The question was put on motion to reconsider ondaga [Mr. Alvord] on Tuesday last relative to the vote by which rules 19, 23 and 24 were the course about to be pursued by the party in adopted and it was deplared carried. majority in this Convention. Mr. SHERMAN - I now move that rules 19, The question was then put on the amendment 23 and 24, as reported by the select Committee on of Mr. Gerry and it was declared lost. Rules, be adopted. The PRESIDENT pro tern. announced the ques- The question was then put on the motion of tion to be on the adoption of rule 29 as originally Mr. Sherman to adopt rules 19, 23 and' 24 as rereported by the select Committee on Rules. ported by the select Committee on Rules and it Mr. WEED - Believing as I do that this rule -was declared carried. will work injuriously, I feel impelled to call for The rules as adopted are in words as follows: the ayes and noes upon the question of its adop- RULE 19. The same rule shall be observed in tion. committee as in the Convention, as far as appliA sufficient number seconding the call the ayes cable, except that the previous question shall not and noes were ordered. apply, nor shall the yeas and nays be taken on a The question was then put on the adoption of division. rule 29 as reported by the select Committee on RULE 23. When a question shall be under conRules, and it was adopted by the following vote: sideration, no motion shall be received except as Ayes —Messrs. A. F, Allen, C. L. Allen, Alvord, herein specified, and motions shall have preAndrews, Archer, Axtell, Baker, Ballard, Barker, cedence in the order stated, viz: Beadle, Beals, Beck with, Bell, Bergen, Bickford, ]. For an adjournment. Bowen, E. P. Brooks, W. C. Brown, Carpenter, 2. For a recess. Case, Cheritree, Clark, Clinton, Cooke, Corbett, 3. A call of the Convention. C. C. Dwiglit, T. W. Dwight, Endress, Evarts, 4. For the previous question. Farnham, Ferry, Flagler, Folger, Fowler, Fuller, 5. To lay on the table. Fullerton, Gould, Graves, Greeley, Hadley, Hale, 6. To postpone indefinitely. Hammond, Hand, Hitchcock, Houston, Hunting- 7. To postpone to a day certain. ton, Hutchins, Ketcham, Kinney, Krum, Landon, 8. To commit to a Committee of the Whole. Lapham, A. Lawrence, M. H. Lawrence, Lee, 9. To commit to a standing committee. Ludington, McDonald, Merrill, Merritt, Merwin, 10. To commit to a select committee. Miller, Opdyke, C. E. Parker, Prindle, Prosser, 11. To amend. Rathbun, Reynolds, Root, Rumsey, L. W. Russell, RULE 24. The motion to adjourn for the day, Seaver, Sheldon, Sherman, Smith, Spencer, Strat- for a recess, for the previous question, and to lay ton, Van Campen, Van Cott, Wakeman, Wales, on the table shall be decided without amendment Williams - 81. or debate. The respective motions to postpone or Noes - Messrs. Barnard, Barto, E. Brooks, E. commit shall preclude debate on the main quesA. Brown, Burrill, Champlain, Chesebro, Church, tion. Cochran, Colahan, Comstock, Conger, Corning, Mr. WEED-I move that the Convention do Daly, Develin. Garvin, Gerry, Hardenburgh, Hatch, now adjourn. Hitchliman, Kernan, Livingston, Loew, Lowery, The question was put on the motion of Mr. Magee, Masten, Mattice, More, Morris, Robertson, Weed, and it was declared lost. Rogers, Rolfe, A. D. Russell, Sclloonmaker, Mr. HAND-I desire to ask leave of absence Scliumaker, Strong, Tappen, S. Townsend, Veeder, for myself for five days. Verplanck, Weed, Wickham, Young - 43. There being no objection, leave of absence was Mr. SHERMAN-The change which has just granted. been made in the rules renders some other changes Mr. PRINDLE-I desire to ask leave of abnecessary, in order to make the rules consistent sence for Mr. Goodrich, of Tompkins, for one week. with each other. In accordance with previous Mr. BICKFORD-I insist that reasons shall be notice, therefore, I move to reconsider the vote of given for gentlemen who desire leave of absence. June 9th, by which rules 19, 23 and 24 were Mr. PRINDLE-It is to enable him to attend to adopted. One of these changes is to except the imperative business matters at home that Mr. Committee of the Whole from the operation of the Goodrich desires leave of absence, though I am previous question. Another is to put the previous not informed of their nature. question in its proper place in the class of privi- The PRESIDENT pro tern.- The Chair is leged motions, and rule 24 is to provide that the informed that the gentleman from Tompkins [Mr. motion for the previous question, like the motion Goodrich] desires to be present at a reference to lie on the table, shall be decided without amend- that has been postponed from time to time to ment or debate. suit his convenience, but which the opposing Mr. WEED-I rise to a point of order, that the counsel will consent no longer to postpone. If rule voted down did not receive a majority of two- there are no objections, leave of absence for Mr. thirds of the Convention. Goodrich will be granted. The PRESIDENT pro tem.-The Chair does not Mr. DEVELIN - I move that the rules as they regard it as an amendment of the rule. It is a now stand be printed and laid upon the tables of motion to reconsider the vote by which the rule members. 640 The question was put on the motion of Mr. Dev iln and it was declared carried. Mr. TAPPEN- I desire to move to reconsider the motion by which the previous question was adopted. The PRESIDENT pro tem.-The motion will lie on the table under the rule. Mr. ALVORD —I rise to a point of order. We have reconsidered that question and under the rules we cannot again entertain a motion to reconsider the subject. The PRESIDENT pro tern. - The point of order is well taken, but nevertheless, the gentleman can give notice if it is any satisfaction. [Laughter]. Mr. McDONALD- I call for the resolution offered by me in regard to this Convention going into Committee of the Whole each day after the Convention has been in session one hour. Mr. SHERMAN-I think that the resolution was laid on the table by a vote of the Convention. The question was put on taking the resolution of Mr. McDonald from the table, and it was declared lost. Mr. DALY-I offer the following resolution, and ask that it be referred to the Committee on Printing: Resolved, That six copies of the Manual, Debates, Documents, Journal, annotated Constitution, and of all other documents or papers printed for the use of the Convention, be deposited in the State Library. Which was referred to the Committee on Printing. Mr. MERRITT-I offer the following resolution, and ask that it may be considered at this time. Resolved, That the rule now in operation applicable to the report of the Committee on the Right of Suffrage in regard to debates, shall be continued, and apply to the report of the Committee on the Legislature, its Organization, etc. Mr. DEVELIN-I propose to debate that resolution. The PRESIDENT pro tem.-The resolution giving rise to debate will lie over under the rule. Mr. MERRITT - I suggest that under the rule the resolution can be considered now as it pertains to business before the Convention. The next business in order is general orders. The PRESIDENT pro tem.-In the opinion of the Chair the construction put upon the rule by the gentleman from St. Lawrence [Mr. Merritt], is not correct, as the present order of business is resolutions. Mr. HATCH - I offer the following resolution: Resolved, That the Auditor of the Canal Department be, and he is hereby requested to furnish to this Convention the following information: 1. The cost of the original construction of the Champlain canal, and all improvements thereof, with legal interest thereon. 2. The cost of collection, superintendence, and repairs thereof, with interest. 3. The tolls received, with interest thereon. 4. What difference will be made in the result of the operations of the Erie and Champlain canals, as reported to this Convention, by separating them from the operations of the Champlain canal, when determined as above. The PRESIDENT pro tern.- The resolution will lie over under the rule. The Chair is inclined to think that it was in error in its previous ruling on the resolution offered by the gentleman from St. Lawrence [Mr. Merritt]. Under rule 29, resolutions pertaining to the business of the day are excepted from the provision requiring that resolutions giving rise to debate shall lie over. General orders being the next matter before the Convention the report of the Committee on the Organization of the Legislature may be reached. Mr. KERNAN-Does the resolution offered by the gentleman contemplate speeches of twenty minutes or five minutes? Mr. MERRITT - Twenty minutes in Committee of the Whole and five minutes in Convention. The question was then put on the resolution of Mr. Merritt, and it was declared carried. Mr. BARTO -I offer the following preamble and resolution: WHEREAS, The act of the Legislature, passed at the session of 1856, creating the office of school commissioner in the several counties, and school commissioner districts in this State, as amended by acts passed in 1864 and 1867, provide that the annual salaries of such school commissioners be paid by the State from the income of the United States deposit fund, thereby diverting from the school fund the sum of about ninety thousand dollars ($90,000) annually; therefore, Resolved, That it be referred to the Committee on Education and the Funds relating thereto, to inquire into the propriety of such diversion, and whether the salaries of these officers whose duties are almost exclusively local, should not be paid by county tax, instead of from the State treasury. Resolved ferther, That it be referred to the same committee to inquire into the propriety of abolishing the office of school commissioner, and that the former system of town supervision be restored in its place. The question was put on the resolution of Mr. Barto, and it was declared carried. Mr. SCHOONMAKER-I offer the following resolution: Resolved, That the Committee of the Whole be discharged from the consideration of so much of the report of the Committee on the Legislature, its Organization, etc., as relates to the Senate, the number and apportionment of senators, and the organization of senatorial districts, and that that part of the report be referred back to the standing Committee on the Legislature, etc., with instructions to revise the apportionment of Senators and organization of senatorial districts, and to equalize as nearly as may be the ratio of senatorial representation, and also equalize, as near as may be the senatorial districts in regard to population. [ ask that the resolution lie over. The PRESIDENT pro tem. -There being no objection the resolution will lie over as requested. Mr. OPDYKE-I offer the following resolution: The SECRETARY proceeded to read the resolution as follows: Resolved, That the special Committee on Official Corruption be authorized to send for persons and papers and to take testimony. Mr. OPDYKE-I offer that resolution, Mr. President 641 The PRESIDENT pro ter. —The resolution giving rise to debate it lies over. Mr. OPDYKE - I merely wish to explain the object of it. The PRESIDENTpro tern. - For that reason it manifestly gives rise to debate, and consequently will lie over. Mr. KETCHAM- I offer the following resolution: Resolved, That the Committee of Revision, to whom is referred the subject of the right of suffrage, be instructed to report section four with the following amendment, viz: "In line five strike out the word 'to,' and insert as follows, ' which in cities and incorporated villages shall,' so that it will read, 'The Legislature shall provide for a registry of all citizens entitled to the right of suffrage in each election district, which, in cities and incorporated villages, shall be completed at least six days before every election except town elections.'" Mr. WEED -I rise to a point of order. The same resolution was offered this morning and voted down. The PRESIDENT pro ten. - The Chair was of that opinion, but it was claimed by others that it was not. Mr. WEED - Then I rise to debate the resolution. The PRESIDENT pro tem.- The resolution giving rise to debate will lie over under the rule. Mr. VAN CAMPEN —I offer the following resolution, and ask that it be laid on the table: Resolved, That the Comptroller be and is hereby respectfully directed to furnish for the use of this Convention five hundred copies of the diagrams of this room. The PRESIDENT pro tem.-The resolution will lie over at the request of the mover. Mr. KINNEY-I offer the following resolution and ask that it be considered at this time: The SECRETARY proceeded to read the resolution, as follows: Resolved, That the use of this hall be granted to Hon. C. P. Johnson, of Brooklyn, on Tuesday evening, August 6, for the purpose of delivering a free lecture on the subject of the " Philosophy of Politics." Mr. MORRIS-I offer as an amendment by adding "provided the chamber is not required by the Convention." Mr. KINNEY-I accept the amendment. Mr. MERRILL-I move to further amend by referring the resolution to the proprietor of Tweddle Hall. [Laughter]. The PRESIDENT pro tem.-The amendment of the gentleman [Mr. Merrill] is not in order. Mr. ALVORD -I think the Chair is competent to decide as a point of order that we have no power over this room, except to sit in it as members of this Convention. The PRESIDENT pro tern. -The Chair hardly thinks it competent to reverse the decision which the Convention has twice made in that respect. The chamber has been twice allowed to other persons than members of the Convention. The question was put on the resolution of Mr. Kinney, and it was declared loot. 81 Mr. GRAVES-I offer the following resolution: Resolved, That the Committee on the Adulteration and Sale of Intoxicating Liquors, be authorized to send for persons and papers to enable them to fully discharge the duty devolving upon them as such committee. Mr. VEEDER - I move to amend by inserting after the word "persons" the word 'samples." [Laughter.] The question was put on the amendment of Mr. Veeder and it was declared carried. [Laughter.] Mr. SEAVER - I call for the ayes and noes. Mr. BARTO - I move that the Convention do now adjourn. The question was put on the motion of Mr. Barto, and it was declared carried, on a division, by a vote of 52 to 50. So the Convention stood adjourned. THURSDAY, August 1, 1867. The Convention met pursuant to adjournment In the absence of the President, Mr. ALVORD of Onondaga acted as President pro tern. Prayer was offered by Rev. HENRY DARLING, D.D. The Journal of yesterday was read by the SECRETARY. Mr. S. TOWNSEND-By consent of the gentleman from Ulster [Mr. Young], who yesterday presented a memorial which was read to the Convention, on the subject of the usance of money, I move that the memorial be referred to the Committee on the Preamble and Bill of Riglts. Concerning, as it does, the right and privilege of every citizen to give or receive at his own option any agreed price for what he desires to buy or sell, this would appear to be its proper disposition, rather than the original reference to the Committee on Banking and Insurance. Mr. BELL presented the petition of Joseph A. Bownan and twenty others, citizens of New York, for a separate submission of a clause of the Constitution prohibiting the sale of intoxicating liquors as a beverage. Which was referred to the Committee on Adul. terated Liquors. Mr. E. BROOKS presented a memorial of the Sons of Temperance of Eastern New York on the same subject. Which took a like reference. Mr. GOULD presented the petition of one hundred and twenty citizens of Tompkins County, in favor of prohibiting the donation of public moneys to sectarian institutions. Which was referred to the Committee on the Powers and Duties of the Legislature. Mr. C. E. PARKER presented the petition of seventy-seven citizens of Tompkins county on the same subject. Which took a like reference. Mr. VAN CAMPEN presented three petitions of citizens of Cattaraugus county, in favor of the regulation and against the prohibition of the sale of intoxicating liquors as a beverage. Which was referred to the Committee on 4Aulterated Liquors. 642 Mr. STRATTON presented nineteen petitions from citizens of New York on the same subject. Which took a like reference. Mr. STRATTON also presented the petition of ninety citizens of the city of New York in favor of enacting a clause in the Constitution prohibiting the donation of public moneys to sectarian instittions. Which was referred to the Committee on the Powers and Duties of the Legislature. Mr. STRATTON also presented the petition of sundry citizens of the city of New York on the same subject. Which took a like reference. Mr. STRATTON also presented two communications from members of the bar of the city of New York suggesting a plan for the judiciary in the first judicial district. Which was referred to the Committee on the Judiciary. Mr. GROSS presented twelve petitions from citizens of New York, Brooklyn, Lyons, Rochester, Suspension Bridge, Niagara Falls and Rondout against a prohibitory liquor law, and asking that a uniform regulation of the traffic in fermented liquors and wines be prescribed by the Convention. Which was referred to the Committee on Adulterated Liquors. Mr. BECKWITH presented the petition of George Sherman and thirty-nine others against the donation of public moneys to sectarian institutions. Which was referred to the Committee on the Powers and Duties of the Legislature. Mr. DUGANNE presented the petition of S. S. Hickock and one hundred and twenty others on the same subject. Which took a like reference. Mr. WILLIAMS presented two petitions on the same subject. Which took alike reference. Mr. LUDINGTON presented the petition of M. V. Schoonmaker and ninety others on the same subject. Which took a like reference. Mr. ANDREWS presented the petition of Luther Little and others on the same subject. Which took a like reference. Mr. E. P. BROOKS presented the petition of thirty citizens of Stuyvesant Falls in favor of a prohibitory liquor law, Which was referred to the Committee on Adulterated Liquors. Mr. A. J. PARKER-I wish to ask for leave of absence for Mr. Corning for three days, who is obliged to leave town. No objection being made, leave was granted. Mr. FERRY-I call from the table the report of the standing Committee on Contingent Expenses in reference to allowing stationery to reporters. The PRESIDENT pro tem. announced the question to be on the motion of Mr. Corbett to substitute the resolution reported by the minority of the committee as amended on motion of Mr. Baker for the resolution reported by the committee. Mr. BICKFORD-I rise to a question of order. The report was laid on the table by order of the Convention, and it requires a vote to take it up. The question was put on the motion to take from tle table the majority and minority reports of the committee, and it was declared carried. Mr. GREELEY-I call for the ayes and noes on the pending motion. A sufficient number seconding the call, the ayes and noes were ordered, Mr. GREELEY-I move the previous question. The PRESIDENT pro tem. —The pending question is on the motion to substitute the resolution reported by the minority of the committee as amended, upon the motion of the gentleman from Montgomery [Mr. Baker], and upon that Mr. Greeley moves the previous question. Mr. CONGER -I submit that the moving of the previous question is merely compelling the Convention - The PRESIDENT pro tem.- The gentleman from Rockland [Mr. Conger] is out of order, the previous question having been moved. The question was then put on the motion of Mr. Greeley for the previous question and it was declared carried. The SECRETARY proceeded to read the resolution reported by the minority of the committee as amended on motion of Mr. Baker in words the following: "Resolved, That each reporter be paid the amount necessary for stationery out of the per diem allowance of the members of the Convention." Mr. KRUM- Is an amendment now in order. The PRESIDENT pro tem.-The Chair is of opinion that an amendment is not now in order. The roll was then called on the resolution reported by the minority of the committee as amended on the motion of Mr. Baker, and it was declared lost by the following vote: Ayes-Messrs. C. L. Allen, Alvord, Andrews, Baker, Barto, Bergen, Bowen, E. P. Brooks, W. C. Brown, Carpenter, Farnum, Ferry, Fowler, Frank, Fullerton, Gerry, Gould, Hardenburgh, Houston, Kernan, Kinney, Krum, Landon, Lapham, Livingston, Loew, Ludington, Magee, McDonald, Merritt, Potter, Rathbun, Reynolds, Robertson, Rogers, Rolfe, A. D. Russell, L. W. Russell, Seymour, Sheldon, M. I. Townserd, S. Townsend, Van Cott, Veeder, Verplanck, Wales, Weed-47. Noes-Messrs. A. F. Allen, N. M. Allen, Axtell, Ballard, Barnard, Beadle, Beals, Beckwith, Bell, Bickford, E. Brooks, E. A. Brown, Case, Cheritree, Chesebro, Church, Clark, Clinton, Cochran, Conger, Cooke, Corbett, Daly, Duganne, T. W. Dwight, Endress, Evarts, Flagler, Fuller, Garvin, Graves, Greeley, Gross, Hadley, Hale, Hammond, Harris, Hitchcock, Hitchman, Huntington, Ketcham, A. Lawrence, M. H. Lawrence, Lee, Masten, Mattice. Merrill, Merwin, Miller, More, Morris, Nelson, Opdyke, A. J. Parker, C. E. Parker, Pond, Prindle, Pros er, Root, Schoonmaker, Seaver, Sherman, Smith, Stratton, Stronr, Van Campen, Wakeman, Wickham, Williams, Young-70. The PRESIDENT pro tern.- The question will now recur on agreeing with the report of the majority of the Convention. 643 Mr. CONGER -Does the previous question apply to the report of the majority. The PRESIDENT pro tern. - It applies, in the opinion of the Chair, to the whole subject. Mr. FERRY - I call for the ayes and noes. Mr. GERRY- I move to lay the question on the table. The PRESIDENT pro tem.-The Chair is of the opinion that the subject cannot be laid on the table, because tho Convention has determined by a vote that the previous question shall operate. A sufficient number seconding the call, the ayes and noes were ordered. The question was then put on agreeing with the report of the majority of the committee adverse to the firnishing of stationery to the reporters, and it was declared carried by the following vote: Ayes-Messrs. A. F. Allen, C. L. Allen, N. M. Allen, Alvord, Andrews. Ballard, Beadle, Beals, Beckwith, Bell, Bergen, Bickford, Bowcn, E. P. Brooks. W. C. Brown, Carpenter, Case, Cooke, C. C. Dwight, T. W. Dwight, Endress, Evarts, Farnum, Ferry, Flagler, Fuller, Gould, Graves, Greeley, Hadley, Hammond, Harris, Hitchcock, Houston, Kernan, Ketcham, Kinney, Krum, Landon, Lapham, A. Lawrence, M. H. Lawrence, Lee, Ludington, McDonald, Merritt, Miller, Pond, Potter, Prindle, Presser, Rathbun, Reynolds, Rolfe, Root, L. W. Russell, Schoonmaker, Sheldon, M. I. Townsend, Van Cott, Wickham, Williams-62. Noes- Messrs. Axtell, Barnard, E. Brooks, E. A. Brown, Cheritree, Chesebro, Church, Clark, Clinton, Co2lr in, Co'ahan, Couger, Corbett, Daly. Duganne, Fowler, Frank, Fullerton, Garvin, Gerry, Gross, Hale, Hardenburgh, Hatch, Hitchman, Huntington, Livingston, Loew, Magee, Masten, Mattice, Merrill, Merwin, More, Nelson, Opdyke, C. E. Parker, Robertson, Rogers, A. D. Russell, Seymour, Sherman, Smith, Spencer, Strong, S. Townsend, Van Campen, Veeder, Verplanck, Wakeman, Wales, Weed, Young-53. The order of resolutions was announced. The PRESIDENT pro ter. - At the time the Convention adjourned there was a resolution under consideration which will be first in order. It was a resolution offered by the gentleman from Herkimer [Mr. Graves], authorizing the Committee on Adulterated Liquors, to send for persons and papers. The gentleman from Kings [Mr. Veeder], moved an amendment to the resolution, which was adopted by the Convention, after which there was a call for the ayes and noes, which was pending when the Convention adjourned. The question before the Convention is, shall the ayes and noes be had upon the amendment of the gentleman from Kings [Mr. Veeder]? Mr. WEEDER- After consultation with some of the members, I understand that the word "papers" covers the whole ground [laughter], and therefore, with the permission of the Convention I will withdraw my amendment. Mr. GERRY —I ask that the resolution be read. The SECRETARY proceeded to read the resolution of Mr. Graves, ns follows: Resolved, That the Committee on the Adulteration and Sale of Intoxicating Liquors, be authorized to send for persons and papers to enable them to fully discharge the duty devolving upon them as such committee. Mr. GRAVES - Certain facts have been disclosed to the committee which makes it, in their judgment, important that this evidence should be obtained for the interest of the Convention, and the people of the State; with that view I hope that the resolution will pass. The question was then put on the resolution of Mr. Graves, and it was declared adopted. Mr. DALY —I offer the following resolution and ask that it be referred to the Committee on Finance. Resolved, That the fiscal year shall hereafter commence on the first day of January, and end on the thirty-first day of December of each year, and, all official annual reports (unless otherwise specially directed by the Legislature) shall be made for the calendar year. Which was referred to the Committee on Finance. Mr. PRINDLE-I offer the following resolution: Resolved, That the State Engineer and Surveyor be requested to furnish information to the Convention of the state of the work on the extension of the Chenango canal, to the State line of Pennsylvania, the proportion of work already done, and the probable expense in addition to the amount already appropriated of completing said exter sion. Which was laid on the table under the rule. Mr. STRATTON-I offer the following resolution: Resolved, That the Commissioners of Metropolitan police of the city of New York be requested to report to this Convention as soon as practicable,the number of men detailed from the Metropolitan police force, as attendants upon each of the police courts, the courts of general and special sessions, and any other courts in the city of New York during the year 1866, designating the name of each of said courts, and the amounts paid for such attendance upon each of said courts respectively; and also whether the amounts so paid will be increased or diminished for the year 1867, and if so, how much for each of said courts. Which was laid on the table under the rule. Mr. OPDYKE-I desire to call up the resolution offered by me yesterday. The SECRETARY proceeded to read the resolution as follows: Resolved, That the special Committee on Official Corruption be authorized to send for persons and papers, and to take testimony. Mr. OPDYKE -I have offered this resolution by direction of the committee for which the power is asked. It is due to the committee to say that, in asking this power, they have no intention to commence a general crusade against those who are suspected of official impurity. They do not wish, nor do they intend to assail the character of any citizen, or to scandalize the State. They merely desire to get some specific, and reliable facts on which to base the recommendations that they will feel it to be their duty to make to this Convention. Such facts have been voluntarily tendered to the Convention, and also to the public press. They simply desire to send for the parties making the tender, in order to get this testimony in proper form and shape for the 644 use of the committee, and, if necessary, for pre- formity in just that particular in which entation to the Convention. there exists the greatest necessity of a Mr. HARDENBURGIH-It is quite well known difference between the cities and country. But that there has been appointed by the Legislature for preventing frauds in the cities and large vil. acommittee, the members of which are now pur- lages we need no registry; we do not want it in suing their labors in this city and elsewhere, and the country districts embracing btut tlree bun. who are from time to time reporting the result of dred or four hundred voters scattered over a largo their labors to this body, as respects the official area of territory and each known to the other. corruption existing in the State. The resolution We are willing, however, to submit to the inconauthorizing various committees to send for per- venience of it because we deem it needful in other sons and papers will lead, I think, to enormous districts, and because we desire the fewest possiexpenditures; and I cannot at this moment under- ble special and local provisions in the Constitu. stand the necessity of the authority which has tion. But if the provision requiring a completion just been given to another committee of this body. of the registry six days before election is adopted, With this committee of the Legislature performing it not only imposes burdens on these thinly setthe labors they are, in developing official corruption, tied districts which are wholly unnecessary, I do not see the necessity of it, and I, therefore, and which answer no good purpose whatever, but shall oppose the appointment of this or any other almost invariably excludes from voting very many investigating committee upon this subject. of the best citizens of those districts. I trust, Mr. RATHBUN-The gentleman who last spoke therefore, the resolution will be adopted. [Mr. Hardenburgh] labors under a misapprehen- Mr. WEED- I rise to a question of order. sion, I think, in regard to the duty of the committee This identical proposition of the gentleman from appointed by the Legislature. I understand that Wayne [Mr. Ketcham] has been voted down by committee are investigating frauds connected with the Convention. the canals, and not frauds connected with the Leg- The PRESIDENT pro ern. - The Chair is islature. Corruption in the Legislature is not to informed that the then presiding officer did rule be reached by the investigations of that cor- upon some point of order raised in reference to mittee. Therefore, it seems to me that this com- the resolution. mittee ought to be authorized to make some Mr. KETCHAM -The facts are these: I sought investigation, at all events, in reference to charges to procure the adoption of this amendment, when which are so common in reference to the cor- the section was originally introduced by the genruptions of the Legislature. tleman from New York [Mr. Daly] but it was The question was put on the resolution of excluded by the pendency of two amendments. Mr. Opdyke, and it was declared adopted. Again I sought to procure its adoption as an Mr. KETCHAM -I call up for consideration a amendment to the resolution by which the article resolution offered by me yesterday. was sent to the Committee of Revision. It will be The SECRETARY proceeded to read the resol- recollected that it was then ruled out as having ution, as follows: been once rejected by a vote of the Convention. Resolved, That the Committee on Revision, to But upon examination it was found not to have whom is referred the subject of the right of suf- been so rejected, and I was yesterday so fortufrage, be instructed to report section four with the nate as to get it fairly before the Convention. following amendments, viz.: Mr. SHERNIAN-I move that the resolution In line five strike out the word "to," and insert lie on the table. as follows, "which in cities and incorporated vil- The question was put on the motion of Mr. lages shall," so that it will read, "The Legislature Sherman, and it was declared carried. shall provide for a registry of all citizens entitled Mr. GOULD-I am informed, Mr. President, to the right of suffrage in each election district, that the Constitution with the accompanying notes, which in cities and incorporated villages shall be which is one of the documents on our files, is very completed at least six days before every election nearly printed, and that it will not be bound unless except town elections." there is a special order on the part of the ConvenMr. KEFTCHAM - The only object of instruct- tion to that effect. I therefore offer the following ng the Committee of Revision to make the resolution: amendment indicated by this resolution, as will Resolved. That the Constitution, with notes, be be seen, is to do away with the necessity of a bound in the same style as the Manual, and that completion of the registry six days before election two copies thereof be given to each member. which is imperatively required by the section as The PRESIDENT pro tem.-Under the rule the it now stands. Now, Mr. President, we have resolution must be referred to the Committee on persistently and day after day most emphatically Contingent Expenses. rejected almost innumerable propositions for uni- Mr. SHERMAN-I offer the following resoluformity in the system of registration in the cities tion: and in the country. I entered into the business Resolved, That until otherwise ordered, the daily of listening to the discussion of the report of the sessions of the Convention commence at ten very able Committee on the Right of Suffrage o'clock A. M., and that each day, except Saturdays, (for I have taken no part in the talking) and my a recess be taken at two o'clock p. 1. till half-past views were in favor of uniformity; but reasons seven P. M. assigned by other members of the Convention Mr. BARNARD-I move to strike out half-past have convinced me of the impropriety of such seven and insert four o'clock. uniformity; and yet the section as it has been sent Mr. BELL-I hope that the amendment may to th n commitee, it seems to me, requires ui- not be sustained. It is necessary that the eore mittees should have some time for consultation and meetings, and four o'clock is a very proper hour. Let the Convention meet at ten o'clock in the morning and sit until two, which will give a session of four hours. Then let the committees hold meetings in the afternoon and and let the Convention sit again at seven o'clock in the evening until any hour they please. That, to my mind, will be better than to hold afternoon sessions. It is very important that we should have some time to prepare business in committees for this Convention, and there is no better time, in my estimation, than in the afternoon. I hope, therefore, that the original resolution will be adopted. Mr. T. W. DWIGHT-I move as an amendment, the resolution which will be found on page 264 of the Journal of the Convention, providing for adjournments at the close of the week, as fol. lows: "And that the adjournments of this Convention at the close of the week shall, hereafter, be regulated as follows: On Saturday next the Convention shall adjourn at one o'clock P. M., to the succeeding Monday at ten o'clock A. M; on the succeeding Friday the Convention shall adjourn at two o'clock P. M., to the following Monday at half-past seven o'clock P. M.; and this order shall be pursued week by week in regular alternation." The PRESIDENT pro tern.-Does the gentle. man from Oneida [Mr. T. W. Dwight] offer that as an additional amendment. Mr. T. W. DWIGHT-Yes, sir. The question was then put on the amendment of Mr. T. W. Dwight and it was declared adopted. Mr. BARNARD-The only reason that I had for offering the amendment was that it would be inconvenient for us to meet at half-past seven o'clock, as then all the gas lights in the chamber are burning; and during warm weather we would find it excessively hot. We would find ourselves among the 80's and 90s. I therefore suggest that four o'clock would be better because the chamber would be much cooler than in the evening. Mr. ETARTS - hope that the amendment of the gentleman from Kings [Mr. Barnard], will not prevail. It is of the utmost importance that we should be able to devote four hours to the public sessions of the Convention. It is very important that we should have some'period of the day suitable for committee meetings. By prolonging the morning session from three hours to four hours, I think we shall gain in the dispatch of business much more than the additional hour, and by adding an additional session at half-past seven, capable, according to the temper of the Conven. tion, of indefinite extension through the evening, I think we Shall accomplish a great deal more. The question was put on the amendment proposed by Mr. Barnard, and it was declared lost. Mr. T. W. DWIGHT - At the suggestion of some gentlemen interested in adjournment I would suggest an amendment that the adjournment of Friday should be at one o'clock instead Of two 0clook P.:. The PRESIDENT pro ten.- That amendment oan only be made by unanimous consent, the amendment of the gentleman [Mr. T. W. Dwight] having already been adopted by the Convention. Mr. LOEW - Is another amendment in order? The PRESIDENT pro tem.-In the opinion of the Chair it is. Mr. LOEW - I move that the adjournment be every Friday at two o'clock until the following Monday at half-past seven. Mr. RATHBUN - I hope that amendment will not prevail. There are a great many members of this Convention who cannot go home between Saturday and Monday, and some who cannot go home even between Friday and Monday, and who have to remain here. I hope that those who are so far away from home that they cannot take advantage of the recesses that are given, will be indulged in having something to do instead of leaving them to rove about the city without any sort of occupation. The question was put on the amendment of Mr. Loew and it was declared lost. Mr. C. C. DWIGHT-I move to amend the amendment adopted by the Convention by striking out two o'clock on Friday, and inserting one o'clock, in order that the Convention may adjourn in time for delegates to tafre the western train at a quarter past one. The question was put on the amendment of Mr. C. C. Dwight, and it was declared carried. Mr. MATTICE-t move to strike out M]onday at half-past seven o'clock P. M., and insert Tuesday at ten o'clock A. a3 The question was put on the amendment of Mr. Mattice, and it was declared lost. Mr. LIVINGSTON-I move to amend by inserting Monday at seven o'clock P. x. instead of Monday at eleven o'clock A. M., where the word Monday first occurs. The PRESIDENT pro term. —The Chair wi! inform the gentleman from Kings [Mr. Livingstor] that ten o'clock A. M. has been passed upon by the Convention. The PRESIDENT pro tern. then announced the question to be on the amendment of Mr. Sherman as amended on the motion of Mr. T. W. Dwight. Mr. WAKEMAN -I tiink it would be better to leave the question of the hour of holding the extra sessions to the discretion of the Convention each day, and I therefore offer the following amendment: Strike out the words, "and that each day except on Saturdays, a recess be taken at two o'clock P. M. till half-past seven o'clock P. ~M." Mr. BELL —The difficulty of that arrangement is that committees would neverknow what to depend upon, whether they will be able to have a 'comr mittee meeting or not. For the last week or two the work of the committees has been entirely deranged from the uncertainty of being able to hold a committee meeting. The meetings of the cenmittees are as important as the public sessions of this body, and I hope that we will have some definite understanding whether we will have a recess or not, and if we decide to have a reces at what time we will reassemble; whether in tie evening or afternoon. I think it is best to now fia this whole matter, that we may go along mn. 646 ierstandingly, both as regards the sessions and committee meetings. The question was put on the amendment of Mr. Wakeman and it was declared lost. Mr. SHERMAN - The amendment suggested by my colleague [Mr. T. W. Dwight] and which has been adopted by the Convention makes it necessary that the resolution be further amended. I therefore move to amend by adding after the word "Saturdays," the words "and on alternate Fridays." The question was put on the amendment of Mr. Sherman, and it was declared carried. Mr. GRAVES-I move that the words "succeeding Friday" be stricken out, and the words "succeeding Saturday" be inserted, so that this Convention shall adjourn on each Saturday at one o'clock. The question was put on the amendment of Mr. Graves, and it was declared lost. The question then recurred on the resolution of Mr. Sherman as amended, and it was declared carried. Mr. HUTCHINS- I offer the following resolution: Resolved, That the counsel to the corporation of the city of New York be requested to furnish to this Convention the following information, viz.: 1. The number of suits or actions at law now pending against said city. 2. The number of unpaid judgments now standing of record against said city, and the total amount thereof. The PRESIDENT pro tern.- The resolution will lie on the table under the rule. Mr. GERRY-I offer the following resolution: Resolved, That the clerk of the common council of the city of New York be and he is hereby requested to furnish this Convention with copies of the report of a select committee of such common council, heretofore appointed to inquire and report what rights and franchises now belong to said city, and of what rights and franchises said city has been deprived of by legislative interference or otherwise. The PRESIDENT pro ter.- The resolution will lie on the table under the rule. Mr. HITCHMAN —I desire to call from the table a resolution offered by myself a week or ten days ago, and which is to be found on page 250 of the Journal, calling for certain information from the tax commissioners of the city of New York as to the value of real estate. The SECRETARY proceeded to read the resolution as follows: Resolved, That the tax commissioners of the city of New York be instructed to report to this Convention the value, in their judgment, of the real estate in use in that city by the various religious denominations for the purposes of public worship, together with the assessed valuation of the same as returned to them, or the officers preceding them, charged with the duties they now perform, from the year 1847 up to the year when such property or real estate was exempted from taxation, by legislative enactment. Mr. GREELEY-I desire to have the resolution amended by adding after the words " pur pose of public worship," the words " and for other purposes." Mr..HITCHMAN- I accept the amendment. The question was put on the resolution of Mr. Hitchman, and it was declared carried. Mr. HATCH — I desire to call up the resolution which I offered yesterday. The SECRETARY proceeded to read the reso. lution, as follows: Resolved, That the Auditor of the Canal De. partment be and he is hereby requested to furnish this Convention the following information: 1. The cost of the original construction of the Champlain canal, and all improvements thereof, with legal interest thereon. 2. The cost of collection, superintendence and repairs thereof, with interest. 3. The tolls received, with interest thereon. 4. What difference will be made in the result of the operations of the Erie and Champlain canals as reported to this Convention, by separating therefrom the operations of the Champlain canal when determined as above. Mr. HATCH-I only desire to say that the ob. ject of this inquiry is to procure a statement from the Auditor, showing the precise financial condi tion of the Erie and Champlain canals. Th3 statement heretofore furnished by the Auditor to this Convention mixes the two. The object is very obvious to the members of the Convention. The question was put on the resolution of Mr. Hatch, and it was declared adopted. Mr. VERPLANCK-I offer the following resolution: Resolved, That the Canal Commissioners report to this Convention the number of breaks in the Erie canal, within the last ten years, the amount paid to contractors, on account of the same, under their contracts, and the length of time that each break interfered with the navigation of the said canal. The PRESIDENT pro tem.-The resolution will lie on the table under the rule. Mr. MASTEN-I offer a resolution and ask that it be referred to the Committee on the Judiciary. The SECRETARY proceeded to read the resolution as follows: Resolved, That the Legislature shall provide for the appointment of a receiver-general, who shall have the care and custody of all moneys which now are or hereafter shall be under the control of the courts of this State. IWhich was referred to the Committee on the Judiciary. Mr. BEALS- I wish to call up the resolution offered by me on Wednesday last, and to be found on page 283 of the Journal. The SECRETARY proceeded to read the resolution as follows: Resolved, That the Commissioners of the Land Office be requested to report to this Convention the number of acres of land belonging to the common school fund in 1822, the report to specify the county in which the land was situated, the name of the tract, and the several lots with the number of acres in each. Aso, What lots have been sold, with the price of each, and what remain unsold. Also, How much money has been received into 647 the treasury from such sales, and how much is gentleman who moves this resolution [Mr. Sherstill due upon bonds for lands. man] whether it is made in concert with the Also, Whether any sales of lands under water committee who have presented the article which have been made, whether land under the waters we are to consider in Committee of the Whole, of the Hudson river or under the waters of the and whether it is deemed expedient by that comEast river, or under the waters of the shores of mittee, and as designed to facilitate the settleLong Island or Staten Island, or under the waters meut of the propositions in their report; because of the inland lakes; and, if so, what sums of unless the committee ask specially that every money have been received for such lands, specify- proposition should go through this sort of catecheting the sum received for each part, and whether ical investigation, I am entirely opposed to the the money received for lands under water have method. been added to the capital of the common school Mr. SHERMAN —The motion I have made is fund, and if not, the reasons for crediting it to in accordance with the desire of the chairman of any other fund. the committee [Mr. Merritt] and I believe with Also, What lands belonging to the State, whether the assent of the committee. acquired by escheat or otherwise (except bid in Mr. MERRITT - I propose to offer a substitute, by the commissioners for loaning the moneys be- if the motion to suspend the rules shall be carlonging to the United States deposit fund), have ried, which covers the same ground. It will be been given away by act of the Legislature, this: whether granted to individuals, or to railroads, or 1. How many Senators and senatorial districts charitable institutions, or for public use in any shall there be. way. 2. What shall be their term of office. The question was put on the resolution of Mr. 3. How many members ef Assembly shall Beals, and it was declared carried. there be, and how elected, and term of office. Mr. E. BROOKS-Appreciating the action of 4. Shall the Convention make the apportionthe Convention yesterday, that we should deliber- ment or direct the Legislature to make it. ate rapidly, I offer the following resolution and Mr. RATHBUN -I am opposed to the propoask that it be laid on the table: sition altogether. We have a report made by the Resolved, That this Convention will adjourn sine committee in which they have reported upon all die at twelve o'clock, meridian, on Monday, Sep- the topics that are now presented in this special tember 9, 1867. proposition, and are all to be taken up and disThe PRESIDENT pro ten.-The resolution will cussed necessarily in the examination of that lie on the table at the request of the mover. report. Now, as we proceed, the question of Mr. CHESEBRO-I desire to offer the follow- the number of Senators will come up in the ing resolution: report. They have suggested a certain numResolved, That the Committee on the Bill of ber and we shall discuss the proposition Rights be directed to inquire into and report to which they bring here, and we approve or disthis Convention the propriety of providing that approve of propositions according to the judgment married women shall be endowed with a certain of the Convention, and so we go step by step amount of the personal estate of their husbands. over the report on the various topics which are Which was referred to the Committee on the presented in it, and upon each one discuss and Bill of Rights. examine and determine it. If we go through Mr. SHERMAN-In pursuance of notice I gave with the several propositions which are sent here yesterday, I move to suspend the third and as naked propositions, we would then after all twenty-first rules for the purpose of enabling have to take up this same report, and the same me to offer a resolution. discussion and re-examination, and thus our The SECRETARY proceeded to read the reso- business would be continued and repeated. I lution as follows: submit that this Convention is competent in the Resolved, That in order to facilitate action on examination of this report to decide, as they prothe article reported by the Committee on the ceed in the case, how many Senators, and how Legislature, its Organization, etc., the Committee many Representatives there shall be, and what of the Whole be directed to consider, before act- compensation, and how the districts shall be ing upon the article by sections, the following arranged, and the time for which they shall be general propositions, viz: elected, and how many, and for what term. We 1. Of what number shall the Senate consist. need no prior discussions. It seems to me it will 2. Of what number shall the Assembly consist. be a total waste of time. The labor will be 3. How many Senate districts shall there be. doubled. I apprehend that the Convention will 4. What shall bo the term of Senators. see it in the same light. I hope this proposition 5. What shall be the term of members of As- will fail altogether. Let us go to work like pracsembly. tical men; we have something to do. It is here 6. Shall members of Assembly be elected by before us in the shape of a report for examination counties or by single districts, or in what other and discussion. We may agree or disagree with manner, the report, but when we have agreed or disagreed 7. Shall the apportionment of Senators be made with it, our work is done, so far as the report is by the Convention, or be left to the Legislature. concerned. 8. Shall the apportionment of members of the Mr. SHERMAN-I offered the proposition be. Assembly be made by the Convention or by the cause I supposed it would facilitate the business Legislature. of the Convention and save time, but if the Mr. CONGER -I would like to inquire of the Convention think that they can dispose of the 648 subject in a simpler manner, I certainly have no question which might arise during a year. pride in the proposition. With three-fourths constantly in the Senate, the The question was put on the motion to sus- Legislature would not need to be hasty, and havpend the rules and was declared lost. ing passed upon questions at one session, they The Convention then resolved itself into a Com-' would be relieved from importunity unless in the mittee of the Whole upon the report of the judgment of the Senate such action ought to be Committee on the Legislature, its Organization, etc. reconsidered, and they would not, therefore, be Mr. ARCHER, of Wayne, in the Chair. brought up for their attention. We think it will The SECRETARY then proceeded to read the reduce the amount of legislation. The idea enter. first section of the article as reported by the com- tained by the Convention of 1846 was that these mittee. officers (Senators) should be brought nearer to Mr. E. BROOKS-I suppose the usual parlia- the people, and that by electing in single districts mentary way is to read the bill through, and then for a single term of two years, would conduce to take it up by sections. I ask that that be done. that end, but they forget that in thus making this The SECRETARY proceeded with the reading. change they reduce the standard of qualification Mr. NELSON-I move to suspend the reading required for a seat in that body. Thus much of the article and take it up by sections. with regard to the Senate. But the idea has pre. Mr. E. BROOKS-As a point of order, I con- vailed in this committee that the tendency of tend it must be read through before it is taken large districts is in the opposite direction, and it up by sections, under the rules of this body. is for that purpose and no other, that we recomMr. NELSON-I withdraw my motion. mend the large districts. We have followed The SECRETARY then resumed the reading precedent in apportioning the State upon this of the article as reported by the committee and theory, starting off in the first place with the proceeded with it to its conclusion. proposition that the Senate should not be inThe CHAIRMAN -The Secretary will now creased, and, as I say, following precedent, we proceed to read the first section of the article. decided to present an apportionment to the ConThe SECRETARY proceeded to read the first vention, and in doing so, we took for a basissection as follows: what we suppose will be the basis in case this SECTION 1. The legislative power of this State Constitution shall be adopted; and that is, the shall be vested in a Senate and Assembly. Any citizen population of the State, or all inhabitants, elector of this State shall be eligible to the office excluding aliens only. We admit, therefore, to of Senator or member of Assembly. representation under this apportionment, that Mr. MERRITT -I hope I may be permitted class who are excluded on account of not posessto briefly state the reasons for the majority report. ing the required property qualification, and the The committee decided that they would not sub- committee will find on page 403 of the Manual, a fmit a report in writing; but the article submitted table showing the number of inhabitants, includ'embraces the unanimous opinion of that commit- ing those who were heretofore excluded on tee, with the exception noted by the gentleman account ot not possessing the requisite qualificafrom Jefferson [Mr. Merwin], and defended in the tions. When we came to divide the counties into Written report submitted by him. In the first districts, the first points which presented themsection you will notice the addition of this sen- selves were the questions of convenience and reptence, ' any elector of this State shall be eligible resentative population, and we thought it very to the office of Senator or member of Assembly." well to take the existing judicial districts as a ii the existing Constitution no qualification was basis. We found also that it would be well to prescribed. The committee thought it very proper confine as nearly as possible the senatorial districts that the same requirements should be necessary to coincide with those of the judicial districts, for the holding of an office as an elector. and taking up the city of New York, we found They also thought that any district choosing that there was a population which on this basis ht representative should be allowed to select such would entitle them to more than four, and it was dfficer from any portion of the State. This gives thought best to have an additional Senator, and ethem that authority. The condition is that they not divide that city. This met with the hearty hihall be electors, and that they may reside in any concurrence of all the members of the committee. part of the State. Believing that change iS not At the present time, and under the present Conaliways progress, we thought that the change sttution, the city of New York is entitled to five Which took place in 1846 was not to the advantage Senators, and will thus be entitled until after the 6r interest of the people, when they reduced the next apportionment which will take place in the trrh of office of Senators to two years and reduced year 1875. We could very well divide the remaint]hb districts to a single district; making thirty- der of the State into seven districts, and giving iWb instead of eight; we believe that the antici- tour Senators would make twenty-eight. We ptions of that body have not been realized in the therefore decided to allow an increase of the Senretlit. We believe that by retaining large dis ate to that extent, provided also that New York triCts and increasing the length of term and the should during the present ten years be entitled to comrpensation, it will invite into the Legislature the same number of Senators which she now poshi~ ablest minds of the State. We believe it to sesses, and that after the next enumeration she be important to make them responsible to a large should be entitled to such addit'onal number as constituency. The Senate, acting as a conserva- her representative citizen population would live body, and allowing elections to take place entitle her, whatever that number might be. TiiY ~ett for one-quarter of that body, would It is desirable that districts should not be Atb iftibnt to test the public judgment on any changed except there be some good reason for it. 849 We believe the interests of the city of New York are so identical that you cannot run a line through that city and divide or separate important interests without damage; and we thought it would be better, looking to the elevation of the character of the representatives, they should be elected on that basis and by general ticket; this had its influence in making the apport:onments. I Will give the committee the representative population on the basis I have Stated. The first district contains 574,548 inhabitants; the second district, 464,469; the third district, 381,856; the fourth district, 425,633; the fifth district, 408,872; the siXth district, 398,805; the seventh district, 375,751; the eighth district, 398,815. This leaves four judicialdistricts as they exist to-day under that division and enumeration. The ratio for a Senator, counting it at twenty-eight, would be 107,135; the ratio for thirty-three Would be 103,850. I give these figures that the members of the committee shall at once apply them to the senatorial districts. It never has been usual to divide counties, and We therefore provided that counties should not in making senatorial districts be divided, and gentlemen will find it will be very difficult to apply any rule in forming any senatorial district that Will make the representative population exactly alike. It cannot be done. There are other cohsiderations which should also be stated with reference to the formation of such districts, and they are the convenience of the different counties and the facilities for meeting in conventions, etc. The only alterations that we have made, as gentlemen will see, is the alteration in the second, third and sixth districts and the fourth and fifth. We have put into the fifth dist trict Montgomery county, and we have put into the fourth district Albany county, the representative population requiring an addition to the preSent fourth judicial district. In putting Montgomery into the fifth district it really serves their convenience, as you will see by examining the map; it would be much more convenient for them than it Would be to go into! the fourth district. The fourth district is the largest of the eight, covering a large territory that is entirely uninhabited, and there is no way I can see, that we can change it, unless the Convention see fit to put into the fourth district Rensselaer county, instead of the county of Albany. Thus much in regard to senatorial districts. The committee also thought it better to return to the old system of electing members of Assembly by, Counties. The committee was somewhat divided on the question of increasing the Assembly as well as on the question of the manner of election. There seems to me no reason why we should continue the present single assembly district system. There is no local interest pertaining to an assembly district which will not pertain to a County.. The Representative of any single district, is therefore, in fact, the Representative of a county. Its interest affects the county. It is a corpora-l tion, and all parts of it are equally interested. It seemed to us very proper that all parts of the County, and all electors of the county should have a voice in selecting their Representative, and we believed further it would bring into thei 82 Assembly a better class of mei-i-rmen Ikfowa all over the county, and of a higher standard, ihaking the office more honorable, and we thought it might perhaps encourage gentlemen who heretofore have declined (especially in these later days) to take seats in the Assembly or to become candidates for that office. The committee at last, as a comprOmise, agreed to increase the number by eleven, making one hundred and thirty-nine. One reasot contended for in the committee in favor of an increase, was that there were several large unrepresented fractions under the present apportionment which might thus be more nearly represented under a new apportionment. I will read a list of the coutties which will get an additional number tunder this proposition of ours. Allegany would get bne, Chenango one, Clinton one, Kings one, Monroe one, New York two, Orange one, Steuben one, Suffolk one, Westchester one-makingeleven. Ifthe Convention should decide to retain the single district system, of course there would be no necessity for any apportionment, as the apportionment was made last year. On the same census returns as that on which future Legislatures would have to act, we have included in the representative population the class which have heretofore been excluded, and I may add, there being more of that class in the southern part of the State, especially New York city, by reason of the addition of the negro population, they will be entitled to an additional member of Assembly. We believe that in allowing the increase gradually, as the population might increase, especially in the district of New York, that the Senate would not become too large even in the judgment of those who are opposed to enlarging that body. While we do hot provide for a permanent fixed number, we do provide for such an increase as will only be igradual, and which would be a very small increase. The gentleman who submitted the minority report contended that there had been no call for abolishing the single district system for members of Assembly. There has been a call for an improvement in the standing and character of our legislative body, and it is because we believe that it will tend to that result that we do away with that system, not that there has been any special call for it, or that it is among the things that the people have specially asked for. We know very well what they want. They want honest legislation, and men of ability in tle legislative body. Whatever course will tend to that result we should encourage. With regard to the actioti of this body upon thoe apportionimentt of the Senate, if they desire, or this Comnitted shall choose to recommenld that the apportionment should be made by the Legislature, that is it they adopt the four years' tinie and the increaseA number of Senators, we would be very willing to allow it to pass over to the next session of that body; We however have the census, and we eat ourselves make this apportionment. The queStiot of salary was also a question debated considerably. We do not suppose that we can adopt or fix A salary here that would be an inducement for any very prominent, able men living:in our lage ci iS, to come to the Legislature. ioeal interests and position only, would influence such a result; bit the great majority of those presosin the o0tintry 650 who would like to be members, and who are capable and proper persons, would not come here for the small pittance of three dollars a day. If we make it a certain salary for Senators and Assemblymen, competition will grow up among a better class of men who could come here and spend one hundred days, or such time as might be necessary without detriment to their pecuniary interests-and we would have the advantage of their talents and ability if the proper inducements are offered to them to come here, not to pay them fully for their services, but to pay their proper and legitimate expenses-they will come. We therefore agreed to present the sum of one thousand dollars, and we do not propose to limit the sessions, but in order to equalize compensation of members from the different parts of the State, we recommend that ten cents a mile should be allowed for traveling fees in going to and returning from the place of meeting. In the sixth section the only change which we made in the existing Constitution is that we struck out that provision in regard to electing Senators of the United States. The CHAIRMAN —The gentleman's twenty minutes have expired - Mr. CONGER-I do not understand the gentleman [Mr. Merritt] who is chairman of this committee as making a speech; he is only making the oral report of the committee. I hope he will not be debarred from finishing it. The CHAIRMAN-If there is no objection the gentleman can proceed. Mr. MERRITT-I offered the resolution last evening to limit debate, and I ought not to be the first to trespass on the time of the Committee. The CHAIRMAN-There being no objection the gentleman will proceed. Mr. MERRITT-There has been heretofore a difference of opinion as to the authority of the Legislature to prohibit any member of the Legislature from being a candidate for the Senate of the United States, or with regard to the binding effect of our present Constitution, and I will say here that with regard to the action last winter, a minority of the Legislature, democrats, unitedly voted for a member of the Senate, showing they did not regard it as binding or trenching upon the Constitution or laws of the United States in that respect, and I think we should not be the judge in regard to it. I suppose it is a debatable question, but it is very proper to leave it out, and I see no reason why they should not be candidates if they choose to be. The other sections are substantially like those in the existing Constitution. I have given, at least as clearly as I understand them, the reasons that influenced the committee, and I will simply add that the article embodies, with the exception of the gentleman from Jefferson [Mr. Merwin], the unanimous opinion of the committee. The CHAIRMAN —Are there any amendments to the first section? Mr. BICKFORD - I offer the following amendment to the first section. The SECRETARY proceeded to read the amendment, as follows: Amend section 1 by striking out " electors " in the second line, and inserting "citizen" in its place. Also, by inserting after the word "State" the words " who shall have resided in this State for one year next preceding his election." Mr. BICKFORD-The object of this amendment is to make a person elegible to the office of Senator or member of Assembly, who might not be an elector, according to the article on suffrage which we have in effect adopted. It would work an absurdity as it stands now in the case which I will suppose, and which may frequently happen. Under this article, as reported by the committee, a man is eligible to the Legislature although he does not reside in the county for which he is chosen, or from which he is chosen, which is a very proper provision in my judgment, but under this provision he would be ineligible if he did not happen to be a.voter. For instance, take my own case. I reside in Jefferson county. I am an elector, and would be if this Constitution was now in force. The people of Lewis county, where I do not reside, might elect me member of Assembly if they chose although I reside in Jefferson county; but if I should remove into Lewis county two months before election, the people of Lewis county would not be at liberty to elect me if they chose. That is simply absurd. Why should my moving into Lewis county deprive them of the privilege of electing me if they chose? It is their privilege to elect the man they want, and the fact that I move from one county to another two months before election should not deprive them of that privilege. Such a case may frequently happen;.that a man by reason of his not having resided in the county four months is not an elector, and yet he has been a citizen of the State, and it may be the desire of the people to elect him. It may be the desire to elect men who are not citizens of their county and do not reside there; and I think, therefore, this amendment should meet with the approval of the committee. Mr. KINNEY-I inquire of the gentleman from Jefferson [Mr. Bickford] if the term " citizen," which he proposes to insert here, will not include women, and if women will not be eligible for the office of Senator. The question was put on the amendment of Mr. Bickford, and it was declared lost. The CHAIRMAN-Are there any other amendments to be proposed to the first section? If not, the Secretary will read the second section. The SECRETARY proceeded to read the second section, as follows:. 2. The State shall be divided into eight senatorial districts. There shall be four Senators in each district. The first district shall consist of the city and county of New York, and shall be entitled to one additional Senator. The second district shall consist of the counties of Suffolk, Queens, Kings, Richmond and Westchester. The third district shall consist of the counties of Putnamr Rockland, Dutchess, Orange, Ulster, Greene, Columbia and Rensselaer. The fourth district shall consist of the counties of Albany, Schenectady, Fulton, Hamilton, Saratoga, Washington, Warren, Essex, Clinton, Franklin and St. Lawrence 651 The fifth district shall consist of the counties of Jefferson, Lewis, Oneida, Onondaga, Oswego, Herkimer and Montgomery. The sixth district shall consist of the counties of Otsego, Schoharie, Delaware, Sullivan, Broome, Chenango, Madison, Cortland, Tioga, Tompkins, Chemung and Schuyler. The seventh district shall consist of the counties of Yates, Seneca, Ontario, Cayuga, Wayne, Monroe, Livingston and Steuben. The eighth district shall consist of the counties of Orleans, Niagara, Erie, Genesee, Wyoming, Allegany, Cattaraugus and Chautauqua. Tile whole Senate shall be chosen at the first election held under this Constitution; they shall classify themselves, so that one Senator in each district shall go out of office at the end of each year, and the additional Senator for the first district at the end of the fourth year. After the expration of their terms under such classification, the terms of their office shall be four years." Mr. E. BROOKS -I move to strike out the word " Westchester" from the sixth line of the second section. I am opposed to the whole spirit, letter and tenor of so much of this report as is now under consideration. I regard it as extremely unjust and unfair, as trenching upon the rights of the people, as in violation of the spirit of the government, and as altogether wrong. Sir. I wish very briefly to state how the report affects my constituents, and in order to show this properly, I have moved the amendment, which is to strike out the county of "Westchester." Sir, it was not at all necessary, in order to secure a fair apportionment, to make such a report as has been submitted by the Committee on Apportionment, and which is now under consideration. It is made to operate very unjustly upon the constituents which I represent with my three colleagues. It has added a county numbering one hundred and one thousand people, and this excess entirely a sulplusage beyond what might be called a uniform number. Now, sir, let me show its operation, and, I am sorry to say, sir, its political or partisan operation, for it is made to bear very heavily upon the district which I partially represent, and very lightly upon other portions of the State. Sir, tho second district of the State of New York, as proved by this apportionment, has a population of 541,362 inhabtants. That is the return which is in the census before me, while the third district has a population of 411,000, that is the adjoining district, and the difference between the second district and the third district is 130,000. Well, Mr. Chairman, I cannot conceive, according to my ideas of justice, of a more unfair apportionment than this. Mr. MERRITT - Will the gentleman allow me to ask him a question? Mr. E. BROOKS -Yes, sir. Mr. MERRITT-Upon what basis do you make an apportionment under the existing Constitution? Mr. E. BROOKS-I am making my remarks upon the basis of a just apportionment of the people of the State of New York, but whether I make them in that direction, or upon the repre. sentative portion of the people called citizens, the operation of this report is equally unjust upon the.constituents represented by myself and others, and indeed upon the entire portion of the people of the State on the seaboard, and especially in the city of New York. You discriminate if you take the report, one hundred and thirty thousand against the second district and in favor of the third district. You also make a very much larger discrimination against the city of New York. In other words, you require a popula. tion of five hundred and forty-one thousand to make a Senator in the second district and five hundred and forty-five thousand in the first district, while you require a population of only four hundred and eleven thousand to make a Senator in the third district. Now, sir, if the gentleman desires that the voting population should be represented in the senatorial district, the conclusion is equally unfair and unjust. Let me show wherein. In the second district there is a voting population of one hundred and six thousand, and in the third district there is a voting population of only ninety-one thousand, and the discrimination, therefore, tells just as strongly against the second district in this respect as it does in regard to the entire population, or to give the result in figures there is a discrimination of fifteen thousand against the second district, and a discrimination of just so much in favor of the third district. Now, sir, it so happens that the third district, apportioned as it is by this report and by the gentlemen representing the majority in this Convention, was equalto some three thousand at the last election, whereas, if you make an equal division of the people, or of the voting people, as between the second and third districts, the second district would be assured a democratic district, as at present, and the third would be so equally divided that it would become a fair contest between the two parties as to who should he in the ascendancy. But this is not all. The difference, as I have said, between those two districts, is as 130,000, while the average differences in all the other districts of the State, (throwing out entirely the city of New York, and counting the seven districts), operates as a difference against the second senatorial district, equal to 100,000 people. Sir, I do not know by what rule gentlemen undertake, if they mean to represent the people fairly. to discriminate between what are called representative people and the people at large. Sir, the gentlemen who made this report, in advance of the action of the people of this State upon it, have counted in all the negro population of the State as prospective voters, and have counted out the entire alien population because they are not citizens. Mr. MERRITT- Will the gentleman allow me a moment? This action was taken after the action of this Convention upon the question of including that class. Mr. E. BROOKS - I do not know when it was taken, nor where it was taken; but I wish to say, as a matter of fact, the entire colored population of this State are to be counted as if they were voters, before the people have acted upon that proposition, and the alien population excluded and that this also is entirely unusual, unfair and unjust. Sir, we are a representative government and a representative people. The Constitution of our State, in its first words, speaks of THE PEOPLE df the StM6 of New York. The Constitttion of that city ft Single additional senator, and to allow the Tnited States, in its preamble, says: "' We, it no representation in proportion to its population, TbE PsoPLE of the United States. in order to and you have, most unjustly, in my judgment, form a more perfect union, establish justice, pro- added the strong democratic county of Westchesvide for the common defense, etc., do ordain and ter, to the democratic counties of Kings, Queens establish this Constitution." I hold, therefore,and Richmond and, these strong democratic that the people in mass ought to be represented counties are thus added with the knowledge equally and fairly in any apportionment which that the political effect will be to increase may be made by this Convention, your already large republican majority and to Mr. GRBEELEY — I would like to ask the decrease the democratic power in the State. If gentleman whether this is a new rule, or the rule with the vast power which you already hold in that has always prevailed in this State, appor- the western part of the State, and which enables tioning according to the representative population you by your majorities to control the Nationof the State? al and State politics, you are not satisfied, Mr. E. BROOKS - Whether it be a new rule what will satisfy you? You have, also, so formed or an old rule, it is immaterial as to the remarks and constructed the several districts, that if the I have made, and I have shown that the gentle- Convention should adopt the report before us, it man from St. Lawrence [Mr. Merritt] and his would deny to the minorities any fair representacommittee in this report discriminate just as much tion. I have a table befdre me which shows in regard to the voting population as they do what might be an equitable distribution of all against the entire people, as in the second district the districts, without trenching improperly upon which has fifteen thousand more voters than the the rights of the people, or upon the rights of the third, and all this discrimination in favor of the two great parties in the State. I will not occupy republican district adjoining. I wish also to your time in reading it, but I wish to read just so say that there was a political majority of some much of it as relates to the district which I repretwo per cent (taking the last election as an illus- sent. I will take the following four counties: tration of what I wish to say), in favor of the Kings, 311,090; Suffolk, 42,869; Queens, 57,997; party in ascendancy in this State. In November Richmond, 28,209; total, 440,165; which exlast, the republicans had a majority of some eludes Westchester, which would, in an equitable 13,789 in a poll of 718,841, and yet upon division for the second districtthe basis of their report, taking the voting Here the gavel fell, the gentleman's time having population as I have stated it, they expired. have secured or would secure twenty-four of Mr. GREELEY-I propose an amendment to thirty-three Senators, a majority of fifteen, or the 2d, 3d, and 4th sections of this report, which nearly fifty per cent. Now, sir, I have not time I will read. It is radically differeTt from that of to analyze this report in other respects, but in the gentleman from Richmond [Mr. E. Brooks], my judgment, if you carry out this record, or if and therefore should, I think, be considered firstyou analyze the votes in the respective districts of the question being properly whether we shall adthe State, they will prove to be nearly as unjust in hero to the large district system or adhere to reference to the representative or citizen popula- smaller ones. I will read my amendment: tion as they are in regard to the population at "Strike out sections two, three and four, anq large. Sir, if the democrats of this State should insert as follows: by good fortune, at some future election, change '~ 2. The Legislature for 1868, shrll divide'the the State vote to the extent of some 80,000, or if State into fifteen senate districts, thereof each by a complete change in the public mind, in regard shall contain, as nearly as may be, with due reto Federal and State politics, there shall be 80,000 gard to the integrity of counties, an equal number more democratic votes polled in November next, of legal voters, and whereof each district shall be than were polled in November 1866, the effect entitled to elect three Senators." upon the senatorial districts would be that the I think it bestthat there should be an increase entire democratic party, with a majority of 80,000 proportionate to the large increased population of would have but thirteen of tile thirty-three the State. Senators named, While the republicans would "Each voter may, at his discretion, repeat elect twenty Senators, and yet be in a minority of twice or thrice on his ballot for Senator the name 80,000 in the State; the republicans, as I have of a candidate; provided, that all names borne said, could hardly carry the third district at all, if thereon, including repetitions, shall not exceed the second and third districts were properly divi- three; and each ballot shall be counted twomor ded. In other words, the democrats would always three votes, as the case may be, for any candidate secure the former, and would have a fair chance whose name may be thus repeated." of carrying the latter. The object here is to gain the result —o greatly Mr. MERRITT-I would like to ask the gen- desired by political thinkers in our day-of the tieman if he applies his theory to the existing representation of minorities. That is, to allow state of facts? With a majority of only 13,000 all the people to participate in the representation for our party in the State, the republicans have of the State. You and I are perfectly aware that twenty-seven senators to five democrats. there may be a district containing 50 000 voters, Mr. E. BROOKS - Yes, sir, that is very true, who may vote 24,000 on one side and 26,000 on and you now propose so to act in this body, that the other, and the 24,000 are entirely suppressed with the large increasing population in the city in the result. They are not heard in this hall. of New York, amounting to-day upon any fair They have no voice proportioned to their popuiacensus, to at least one million people, to give to tion. They are simply null, so far as represeta 653 tion is concerned; and the consequence is, that, each district a conceded and notorious minority in one part of the State, only one section of the would say, "There are three to be chosen, and we people is represented, and another part in anoth- can surely elect one. We will nominate our best er section. I propose to have all the people rep- man, and print his name three times on each balresented. That is to say: let us suppose one lot, so that man will surely be elected." Thus, district, composed of Chautauqua and Cattaraugus I hold, there would be a better class of counties, in which is an overwhelming republican representatives in both House; for very majority; in that locality, the minority may nomi- often the minority ticket in a county is the nate one man and print his name three times on better ticket. There is no scrambling to theirballots, and thus certainly elect him. In New get on this ticket, or at least not so much. I York city, where the republicans are a decided believe we would have better men to make our minority, they could do the same, with a like laws. Concentrating the vote of a large district result. The minority could, in almost any dis- on a single man, would be pretty certain to give trict, concentrate all its votes on one candidate ua one good man from that district, Men who and certainly elect him, unless the preponderance have been excluded from office for years of the majority was overwhelming-say, five or six in regions where the local minority has long had to one. Thus, all the people in all parts of the ne voice in this hall, under this system would State would be represented. People would go be represented. I propose forty-five assembly to the polls knowing that their votes districts, because a very large number of were not a mere form. In every part of the our counties, under this system, would form — State, the local minority would go to the polls say- very properly-each an assembly district. Oneida, ing, 'We are going to elect our man." They could Monroe, Onondaga, Oswego, St. Lawrence, Rensin each di. trict elect, at least, one man; so that selaer and Westchester counties-a very considerall the people would have a representative of their able number-would form each a district, and you own choice in the Legislature. I believe that the would, of course, divide Kings and New York soundest and the calmest political thinkers of our into districts; and when the people shall, as I time have generally come to the conclusion that, trust they soon may, become convinced that a while it would make no material difference in the larger number of Assemblymen than one hundred general result-that is, the majority of the people and thirty-live, and when we have a sufficiently would choose and be represented by a majority in capacious hall, the people may at any time vote to the Legislature-yet all classes of the people-all increase the number of Assemblymen from one sections and both parties in all sections-would hundred and thirty-five to two hundred and thus obtain a representative. I think this would twenty-five; winch I believe would be a much be more satisfactory than our present system, and fairer representation of the people, and would would secure, on the whole, a better representa- give to the State a much more satisfactory and a tion. I proceed: less corruptible Legislature than the smaller num"The Senators thus chosen shall hold their ber wherewith we have usually legislated. I ask office for ---- years; and any vacancy mean- that this amendment be printed; and ask that it time occurring shall be filled by election as here- be fairly considered by the Convention, before it tofore. On the expiration of the terms of Sena- is voted on-at least, before it is voted down. tors, their places shall be filled as above. The SECRETARY proceeded to read the " 3. There shall be a decennial enumeration amendment of Mr. Greeley, as follows: or census of the people of this State in the year Strike out sections two, three and four, and 1875, and in every tenth year thereafter; and the insert as follows: Legislature in the year following shall re-apportion " 2. The Legislature for 1868 shall divide the the State for the choice of Senators and Assembly- State into fifteen senate districts, whereof each men, according to the provisions of this article. shall contain, as nearly as may be, with due regard No county shall be divided in the formation of a to the integrity of counties, an equal number of Senate district, unless it shall contain more legal legal voters, and whereof each district shall be voters than are required to constitute a senate entitled to elect three Senators. Each voter may, district. at his discretion, repeat twice or thrice on his bal. "~ 4. The Legislature for 1868 shall, in like lot for Senator the name of a candidate, provided, manner divide the State into forty-five assembly that all the names borne thereon, including repeti. districts, whereof each shall be entitled to choose tions, shall not exceed three; and each ballot shal three members of Assembly; but any succeeding be counted two or three votes, as the case may be, Legislature may, provided the people of this State for any candidate whose name may be thus shall, by a direct vote, consent thereto, increase repeated the number to five members from each assembly "The Senators thus chosen shall hold teir district. office for - years; and Dny vacancy -nMan The provisions of section two, with regard to time occurring shall be filled by election as harea repetition of names of candidates on the same tofore. On the expiration of the terms of Saenballot, shall apply likewise to ballots for and the tors, their places shall be filled as above. choice of members of Assembly, except where a 'r ~ 3. There shall be a decennial enueratlon r single member only is to.be chosen to fil a census of the people of this State in the year 18T5, vacancy." and in every tenth year thereafter; and the leg I propose that the same principle of allowing islature of the year following sha$1 re-appoetiva minorities as well as majorities to be represented the State for the choice of Senators and of 4merfrom every part of the State, should be carried blyen, according t to he provisions f thg i ari into the election of Assewtnlymn also; $o that ia Cs~. Np coPunty sW e dvi4d iW tA feavzt i 654 of a senate district, but such as contain more legal voters than are required to constitute a senate district. "~ 4. The Legislature for eighteen hundred and sixty-eight, shall, in like manner, divide the State into forty-five assembly districts, whereof each shall be entitled to choose three members of Assembly; but any succeeding Legislature may, provided the people of this State shall, by a direct vote consent thereto, increase the number to five members from each assembly district, * The provision of section two, with regard to a repetition of names of candidates on the same ballot, shall apply likewise to ballots for and the choice of members of Assembly, except where a single member only is to be chosen to fill a vacancy." Mr. HALE -I am very much gratified by the presentationof the proposition of the gentleman from Westchester [Mr. Greeley,] in which is embodied a principle which I think will commend itself to all those who have given the subject consideration. I would suggest to him, however, whether it would not be well to waive so much of his amendment as applies to the other sections than the second, in order that we may consider separately the propriety of the division suggested by him into senatorial and assembly districts. I suppose, properly, one section should be considered at a time. Mr. GREELEY-The Convention will of course consider one section at a time; but, in order that the proposition may be fairly before the Convention and be considered as a whole, I think it better to have it printed and laid on our tables. Mr. WEED - I move that the committee do now rise, report progress and ask leave to sit again. Whereupon the committee rose, and the President pro ter. [Mr. ALVORD] resumed the Chair in Convention. Mr. ARCHER from the Committee of the Whole, reported that they had had under consideration the report of the Committee on the Legislature, its Organization, etc., had made some progress therein but not having gone through therewith, had instructed their chairman to report that fact to the Convention and ask leave to sit again. The question was then put on the motion to grant leave and was declared carried. Mr. VEEDER - This is a very important proposition, and I think we ought to have time to consider it. I therefore move that this amendment offered by the gentleman from Westchester [Mr. Greeley] be laid on the table until printed. The question was then put on the motion of Mr. Veeder and was declaired carried. The PRESIDENT pro tem.-The Chair wishes to say to gentlemen, in order to facilitate the business of the Convention, and for the purpose of avoiding any other course being pursued, that under the rule there is no necessity for dissolving the Committee of the Whole, because at two o'clock the presiding officer will take the Chair, and that puts the action of the committee in abeyance as any other matter during recess, and at the expiration of the recess the committee proceeds regularly. Under the present direction the Chair will be under the necessity of asking unanimous consent or else going over the entire order of business from beginning to end, in order to arrive at the special order of business. On motion of Mr. SHERMAN the Convention took a recess until half-past seven o'clock. EVENING SESSION. The Convention met at half-past seven o'clock, the President pro tern., Mr. ALVORD, in the Chair. The PRESIDENT pro ter. presented a comr munication from the Auditor of the Canal Department, in answer to a resolution of the Convention, adopted July 12, in reference to the contracts, repairs, improvements, etc., on canals. Which was laid on the table and ordered to be printed. The Convention then resolved itself into the Committee of the Whole on the report of the Committee on the Legislature, its Organization, etc., Mr. ARCHER, of Wayne, in the Chair. The CHAIRMAN The Convention is now in Committee of the Whole, on the report of the Committee on the Organization of the Legislature. The pending question is on the motion of the gentleman from Richmond [Mr. Brooks] to strike out the county of Westchester from the second district. The amendment of the gentleman from Westchester [Mr. Greeley] not being germane to the proposition of the gentleman from Richmond [Mr. E. Brooks] is not at this time in order. Mr. BALLARD — I move to amend by striking out the section as it now stands and inserting as follows: Amend section two as follows: The State shall be divided into thirty-two senatorial Districts, each of which shall choose one Senator. The first district shall consist of the counties of Suffolk, Queens and Richmond. The second district shall consist of the first, second, third, fourth, fifth, seventh, eleventh, thirteenth, fifteenth, nineteenth and twentieth wards of the city of Brooklyn in the county of Kings. The third district shall consist of the sixth, eighth, ninth, tenth, twelfth, fourteenth, sixteenth, seventeenth and eighteenth wards of the city of Brooklyn, and the towns of Flatbush, Flatlands, Gravesend, New Lots and New Utrecht, of the county of Kings. The fourth district shall consist of the first, second, third, fourth, fifth. sixth, seventh, thirteenth and fourteenth wards of the city and county of New York. The fifth district shall consist of the eighth, ninth, fifteenth and sixteenth wards of the city and county of New York. The sixth district shall consist of the tenth, eleventh and seventeenth wards of the city and county of New York. The seventh district shall consist of the eighteenth, twentieth and twenty-first wards of the city and county of New York. The eighth district shall consist of the twelfth, nineteeth and twenty-second wards of the city and county of New York. 655 The ninth district shall consist of the counties ate constituency. This would not prevail to the of Westchester, Putnam and Rockland. extent that it now does in those large districts. The tenth district shall consist of the counties Senators might be in office in a remote county of Orange and Sullivan. and know nothing of the immediate wants of their The eleventh district shall consist of the coun- constituency in another part of the district. That ties of Dutchess and Columbia. would be the tendency of it. We had better keep, The twelfth district shall consist of the counties as it seems to me, in the plan that has been sancof Rensselaer and Washington. tioned by the experience of the past years. The thirteenth district shall consist of the Again, it implies or rather suggests the want of county of Albany. confidence in the people, as though the constituents The fourteenth district shall consist of the in each of these thirty-two senatorial districts as counties of Greene and Ulster. they now stand, were not capable of selecting The fifteenth district shall consist of the coun- the proper candidates for senatorial nominations, ties of Saratoga, Montgomery, Fulton, Hamilton as they would be if they were grouped together and Schenectady. in a territory almost as large, as I said before, as a The sixteenth district shall consist of the coun- State. I do not accede to that proposition. I believe ties of Warren, Essex and Clinton. that the intelligence of the people of the present The seventeenth district shall consist of the day in this State in each of these thirty-two discounties of St. Lawrence and Frdnklin. tricts are equal to all emergencies of a senatorial The eighteenth district shall consist of the nomination or a senatorial election. We had counties of Jefferson and Lewis. better abide by the experience we have had for The nineteenth district shall oonsist of the the past years, in regard to the selection of cancounty of Oneida. didates and the election of Senators. As to the The twentieth district shall consist of the term of office, whether it shall be for two counties of Herkimer and Otsego. or four years, I am not now prepared to express The twenty-first district shall consist of the an opinion. Perhaps it would be better to enlarge counties of Oswego and Madison. the term of office in conjunction with the enlargeThe twenty-second district shall consist of the ment of their compensation. I do insist it would counties of Onondaga and Cortland. be imprudent to make so radical a change in our The twenty-third district shall consist of the senatorial districts as is implied in this report. counties of Chenango, Delaware and Schoharie. My belief is it would never be sanctioned by the The twenty-fourth district shall consist of the people of this State; it is not in accordance with counties of Broome, Tioga and Tompkins. their expectations or their desires. The twenty-fifth district shall consist of the Mr. CONGER —I am opposed to the reprecounties of Cayuga and Wayne. sentation in the Senate as devised by the comThe twenty-sixth district shall consist of the mittee. I differ with them tote ccelo as to the counties of Ontario, Yates and Seneca, basis of representation and the mode of distribuThe twenty-seventh district shall consist of the tion into districts. To show that my objection is counties of Chemung, Schuyler and Steuben. just, I premise a few statistics drawn from the The twenty-eighth district shall consist of the last census of the State. By that census, Mr. county of Monroe. Chairman, the population of the State was nearly The twenty-ninth district shall consist of the four millions, its area nearly forty-four thousand counties of Niagara, Orleans and Genesee. square miles, and its wealth fifteen hundred and The thirtieth district shall consist of the fifty millions of dollars. The population of the counties of Wyoming, Livingston and Allegany. city of New York was nearly one-fifth of the popuThe thirty-first district shall consist of the lation of the State, its area less than one two-thoucounty of Erie. saudth, and its wealth was near two-fifths of the The thirty-second district shall consist of the whole amount of the assessed aggregate equalized counties of Chautauqua and Cattaraugus. valuation of the property of the State. No man Mr. BALLARD - My main purpose in introdu- supposes that at the present time the population Cing that amendment was to retain the present of the city of New York varies materially from senatorial divisions of this State. I am not so the gross amount of one million of souls, and the tenacious of the particular counties embraced in complaints that were made in regard to the last that amendment as they now stand. I would state census, as lowering the population of the State that the districts as mentioned in that amendment as well as the city in 1865, below the amount are as they now exist. I am satisfied, Mr. Chair- fixed by the United States census of 1860, was man, that the creation of these eight senatorial sufficient to have enabled this committee to atdistricts will tend to remove the power further tempt some equation of its errors throughout the from the people. By the advance of our popula- State, in whole or by parts, and not to confound tion, each of these eight districts is equal to a State either the rules or the false methods of the census of itself, and the tendency of it would be to place with the conclusions to be arrived at by a fair interthe control of the nominating conventions in each pretation of it. But, sir, if this be so, as I have of these districts in the hands of a few mon. It premised, if the relative population and wealth of is taking a step backward instead of keeping the city of New York to the State be at the least pace with the progress of the age. Senators as I have stated, you cannot make the number of should be intimately acquainted with the wants districts proposed by the committee, unless you of their constituents; and their constituents should sunder that city in twain. If you propose to leave know each Senator intimately; they should feel that untouched, then you can have no more than continually their responsibility to their immedi- four Senate districts in the State-at best five. gr 656 Gentlemen who are conversant with the figures of the census will readily observe this conclusion to be confirmed on inspection of these maps [pointing to maps suspended on the wall] which have been prepared through the kindness of the chairman of the committee. The map on the left shows the distribution as proposed by the committee for the present senate districts, the xnap on the right, the old distribution made in 1647 of the judicial districts of the State. The present Senate plan of the committee is based upon a recognition of what were then justly made and established as eight judicial districts of the State. But the committee have overlooked the general and relative differences of increment in population during the last twenty years. The population of the State by the census of 1845 was only two million six hundred and four thousand, while that of the city of New York was three hundred and seventy-one thousand, so that it was perfectly just and fair as far as the basis of population was concerned, to make the city of New York, a judicial district by itself, being oneeighth of the population of the whole State. ouw, if the present adaptation by the committee ef the old plan, is not to be gloated over as a partisan device; to take this distribution in the year 1867, based on and very slightly varied from the distribution made by the Legislature in 1847, is to say the least of it, a bald anachronism. You might as well take that plan of judicial division of the State, that political mummy wrapped up in the cerements of the census of 1845, and try to galvanize it into life for the next ten years by the political wand of a bare majority of this Convention, as to undertake to reconcile the people of the State of New York with a fresh distribution of its population and wealth based on that ancient and effete scheme. Sir, I have been at some pains to examine the exact relation which the population, native, alien and colored, bears in the whole State to the several districts, as proposed by the committee. My time will not allow me to go over all these figures; I will put the latter of these charts, as a part of my remarko, in the possession of the Convention, or plaoe both immediately at the service of any gentleman who desires to ascertain that the figures which I have given are arithmetically correct. It will be sufilcient for me, sir, to give you some jof the principal details to show the utter injustice, I the gross injustice, of the plan of this committee. You take three million eight hundred and thirtytwo thousand as the population of the State and divide it by eight, and you have four hundred and seenty-nine thousand of people to be representnd by four Senators, or nearly one hundred and sfweaty thouand people to one Senator. Thus, with referene to the population of the city of oew York, the least that could be done in accrantce with the present census, unjust and unfair as i was, is to give the city of New York six ienators, a4d when you come to the second district the least you can do for that is to give it five enatopre. So that o do justice in the scheme as presepntg by the committee, you must not only *large tWe ntire eount of the Senate by two more, eaking it thirty-iv, but you must give the first Il 99on diatrits leven senatra to represeat them; and this without any correction of the inaccuracies of the census itself. But if gentlemen want to be satisfied that the injustice of this thing will be resented by the tax payers of the State let them look, I pray them, at how the tax. rate stands as compared with rates of representation. You take the sixth and seventh districts of this State as in the plan of this committee, and the sum total of this property is two hundred and twenty-five millions, a trifle more than that of the assessed valuation of the property of the second district. And so it is, sir, with the fourth and fifth. Yet according to this plan, the fourth up to the seventh districts are to have sixteen Senators while the county of Kings with its associates under the plan, paying one-half of the amount of taxes which these four senate districts do is to have but four Senators. You give these western districts a representation in the Senate of sixteen and you give the easternmost district a representation of four. That is to say you make the tax payers in the second district pay double the amount of taxes which those in all these other districts do, while the farmer get only one-half of the representation. The first and second districts are assessed for eight hundred and sixteen millions-more than half of all the property returned by the census of the State. Yet these two districts will have, according the plan of the committee, nine representatives in the Senate, a trifle over one-fourth of the whole, while they pay more than half of the entire taxes that support the government of the State. Again, if you look at the map, you will find that the first district is composed of one county, the second of five, the third of eight, the fourth of eleven, the fifth of seven, the sixth of twelve, the seventh and eighth of eight each, so that there is no possibility of supporting the scheme as presented by the committee, either on any equal rate for the grouping of counties, or a just division of the payment of the taxes. Now, sir, how is it that the committee propose to justify their scheme before your body? Why, they tell you that they have given you the basis of citizen population, and they pretend to say that this ought to be justified as in accordance with the old practice of this State. I cannol but regard it, sir, as a fresh experiment, an experimentum in corpore vili, a party trick upon a despised part of our population, an attempt t( trample out the right to representation of th( alien born inhabitants of the State. And yet w{ have on this foor gentlemen who are accreditec for their eloquence, for their judicial position an( for the colossal fortunes which they have made which indicate the earnestness and the integrit: with which they have pursued their several call ings among the citizens of the State, we hav them here on this floor —the sons of a populatiol so despised that the gentlemen of this committe will not allow them to have any basis in th representative inhabitancy of the State. At th same time the gentlemen say they do not hide th fact that they have intended to and do includ the colored population of the State. Mr. MERRITT- Will the gentleman allow a to ask a question? Mr. QO0.fEiB I liha not the time; bi I anticipate what the gentleman would say, for he made an explanation before the committee, when he attempted to hide this great injustice to the inhabitants of the State on the plea that it was in the Constitution of 1846, and the Constitution of 1821. I do not so read the design of either of these Constitutions. Tho Constitution reserves from the basis aliens, paupers and persons of color not taxed. That is the sheer distinction. It is not a matter of mere alienage of birth, but it is freedom from taxation which practically operates for their exception from the basis. If the gentlemen want any further justification of the ideas I seek to establish, let them turn to the Constitution of the United States. What is the basis of representation there? Under the old Constitution it was a basis of representation according to numbers, with the exception of three-fifths of a certain class of persons and Indians not taxed. But now that the three-fifths representation of slaves in the Constitution is abolished, the Committee come into this body and ask for a basis of representation on nine-tenths of the white population of this State. Turn to the fourteenth article of the proposed amendment to the Constitution and what have you there? You have there a basis of representation on numbers excluding Indians not taxed, and no man can pretend to say that it ever was in the intention of the founders of the Constitution of 1821 to exclude any portion of the population from the basis of representation, except on this justification, that they were not to be taxed. Now, the last census might have disclosed to the committee, had they taken the pains to examine it, that of the colored population (whose numbers I gave the other night as less than 45,000), four-fifths were put down as not taxed; and yet, under the new rule by which they are to be admitted on the basis of a common citizenship, they are brought in here to be included in the main class of inhabitants that form the basis of representation, while those who are of foreign birth are excluded. Now, the great injustice, and the great enormity of the application of this new and invidious rule is, that in taking the census there was no effort made to designate among the alien population of the State those who were taxed on property acquired and those who were not taxed because of no property accumulated. The gentlemen here maintain the position that they may exclude all who are accounted as aliens under that census. Four hundred thousand souls out of the population of the State of New York, when they know that of late many thousands have fulfilled their first declaration of intention to become citizens, and when they know that by the laws of the State a man who once declares his intentions to become a citizen is not only made subject to military duty but is then and for the first time permitted to hold real estate and is thus liable to be taxed for his property. Do the gentlemen of the committee mean to tell this body that four hundred thousand souls of foreign birth in the State of New York are not now practically taxed and ought not to be taxed? I would not so libel the authors of the Constitution of 1821 as to say that they meant to exclude the aliens on the ground of mere alienage, and not on the ground that they had not acquired any property to tax. Moreover I am free to say that I am opposed to any shifting 83 series of representation. You have one set of districts this year, in ten years you have another setol districts. You take small counties and link them on to larger counties, they are mere make weights in the representation. Why should they not have a fixity, an abiding status with their fellow-counties? Why would it not be much better, if you will have large districts in the State, to declare that there shall be a certain number and that that number shall be fixed, and the boundaries fixed. and that the representation from time to time shall be in accordance with the population? It may be, sir, that in the course of this debate some gentleman may see fit to propose, and if he does he will easily at this day justify his argument, making property as a tax paying element in the constituency have some share in the basis of representation. I do not believe it is wiso to have the Senate represent only population, by or on a new combination of the identical people who in more numerous groupings on a smaller scale constitute the lower house who represent nothing but the same people. It is a departure from the wisdom of our forefathers. But I have not time to elaborate that idea. Now as I have only two minutes, I perciove by this clock, I have to say that you are bound by the sense of duty you owe to yourselves to do justice at least to the democratic districts of the State. It never was known in the history of that party when in power that they erer attempted to lay the basis of institutions to last for years, on any principle other than that which was founded on equal justice to all. And to attempt now to take this advantage of the city of New York-a city that is destined in a few years to be the commercial metropolis of the world when the Pacific railroad is built, to be the center of the carrying trade of the world, and which will contain within ten years (the limit you have fixed by this proposition) a population of one million and a half of souls I say it is a shame and a disgrace to attempt to cheat them of their fair representation in the higher council chamber of the State; and I do not think the constituency of New York will give credit to the proposition of my associate from Westchester [Mr. Greeley], who proposes fortyfive Senators in all, and under this very beautiful and delicate clause-" with due regard to the integrity of the counties "-cuts off the city of New York with three Senators, leaving that population which represents one-fifth of the tax-paying contributions to the exchequer of the State to have but one-fifteenth part in the representation of the Senate of the State. Summary of Eight Senate Districts, as prepared by the Committee. i n| POPULATION. e e ||5 ' Total. Alien. Col'd. ^, ~ I _ ____ 1 1 726,386 151,838 9,943 22 $606,784,355 2 5 541,362 76,908 12,602 1,710 209,425,023 3 8 411,424 29, 558 8,844 4,777 142,033,559 4 11 464,747 38,684 2,657 11,647 113,367,289 5 7 437,134 27,902 2,268 6,488 106,616,708 6 12 409,386 10,470 3,315 8,069 94,767,30 7 8 401,217 23,776 2,658 4,979 130,771,118 8 8 440,187 38,330 1,421 6,122 127,563,748 [..8 3_.1.22_ 658 Mr. SHERMAAN-It is hard, Mr. Chairman, to suit gentlemen, who are hard to be suited. This must be apparent to any one who has given attention to the proceedings of this body for the last six weeks. If every man could have his favorite idea worked into the body of the Constitution we are framing, we should have no difficulty in arriv. ing at a harmonious conclusion. But what sort of a work would we have to submit to the people? Do you think sir, that the medley of Constitution, detail law hobby horse, stump speech and nonsense thus evoked would be acceptable? Probably not. And yet to such an end are we likely to drift unless we are prepared to yield more of pride of opinion, more of partisan feeling and more of individual prejudice than we have yet done. Committees have been appointed to whom have been referred subjects of constitutional adjustment. After weeks of patient, even anxious investigation, they have submitted their deliberate judgment to the Convention; but for that judgment it has been quite too common to substitute the crude and hasty ideas of individuals. Let us see that we do not fall into this error in the consideration of the subject before us. I know it is not in human nature for all men to yield to one man, nor for bodies of men to yield to other bodied, especially those numerically weaker. Nor is it human nature to subrmit even to what is fair when it runs counter to interest. Therefore, I am not surprised that the report of the Committee on Organization of the Legislature fails to be received with that universal acclaim to which its merits entitle it. Complaint is made particularly of the apportionment of Senate districts reported by the committee, and it is to this branch of the subject I will confne my remarks. The essence of these complaints s that the committee have failed to make a sufficient number of democratic districts. The committee must plead in justification that they did not, in the adjustment of this question, regard it tl:eir province to consider partisan bearings. Having reached the conclusion that the public good would be promoted by the division of the State into eight large districts for the choice of Senators, they next sought how these should be best framed. They thought that the ruling considerations should be geographical connections, convenient lines of travel, and the general currents of business, and that these should be attained with as little disturbance as possible of existing relations. Tested by these requisites, the plan of the committee will bear close criticism. The general idea has been to make the senate districts conform as nearly as possible to the existing judicial districts. If it had been practical, they would have recommended the adoption of these districts without change. But this was impossible on account of the greater proportionate increase of population in the south-eastern portions of the State, and the consequent gain of Senators to that section. This rendered necessary, to a certain extent, a dislocation of the present second and third districts. The excess of representative population in New York was very fairly provided for by giving to that district an additional Senator. The remaining island counties not having sufficient population to entitle them to four Sen ators, it became necesssary to add another county, and that was, inevitably, Westchester, as that was the only county remaining, of contiguous territory. It is true this gave the district some excess of population, but this excess was not as much as would have been the deficiency had Westchester been omitted. If there was an evil at all in the case, the committee have chosen the least. In regard to the proposed third district, it is safe to say that it is hardly possible to form anywhere in the State a district more convenient in respect to geographical lines and the facility of inter-communication. It is composed wholly of adjacent counties on the Hudson river. The inhabitants are mainly of the same origin, and are closely connected by ties of blood, business and local interest. Two parallel lines of railroad and the chief navigable river of the State traverse it from end to end, and from the most remote part of the district to a common center is but a few hours' journey at the most. Yet it is of this district that chief complaint is made. The fourth district, as proposed by the committee is the present fourth judicial district with the subtraction of Montgomery and the addition of Albany. This arrangement is also complained of. If gentlemen will carefully go over this whole subject by the lights of geography and arithmetic, they will see that it could not well have been different. The increase of population in the first and second districts necessarily forced the third into more northerly connections, and either Albany or Rensselaer must dissolve its relations with the third district, in order to avoid a heavy excess of population in that district or a corresponding deficiency in the fourth. The committee deeming that tile district would be better slhped by embracing Albany than by passing by it to include Rennselaer, decided to attach the former county to this district. No material political relations were believed to be affected by this arrangement. It is true that at the last general election, the counties embraced in the third district gave a republican majority, but this was an exceptional result-an accident, which I am sorry to believe, will not be often repeated. The proposed fifth district is the present fifth judicial district, with the addition of Montgomery; an arrangement so fair and correct that no one, I believe has yet venturled to find fault with it. The assignment of the counties of Schollrie and Sullivan to the sixth district was necessary not only to secure the compactness of the third, but to give to the sixth its requisite quota of population. The communuicatiois of Sullivan with the other counties of the sixth district are more convenient than with the third, and the completion of the Albany and Susquehanna railroad. which will be secured long before this arrangement can go into effect, will make the connections of that county with the body of the district as convenient as could be desired. The New York and Erie railroad traverses the district the whole length, from east to west, and lateral lines of railroad extend from this into every county of the district except Madison, where similar connections are now in progress. Thile proposed seventh and eighth districts are identical with the present judicial districts of 659 those numbers, and as no conceivable amount of gerrymandering could change the political complexion of either of these or of any of the districts adjoining, I presume this arrangement will not be complained of. This is the plan which the gentleman from Richmond [Mr. E. Brooks] and the gentleman from Rockland [Mr. CongerJ so harshly criticise. Would it not be well for gentlemen who complain to propose a scheme which, as a whole, would be better? There is not it is true, entire equality of population in the districts; but there is no such disparity as would work real injustice or even inconvenience. Compactness of territory and convenience of communication have been regarded, and properly so, as of more importance than exact equality of population. The political bearings of the proposed districts have been alluded to. Though this consideration did not enter into the judgment of the committee, it has crept into this discussion, and may, therefore, be referred to in its practical aspect. Of the proposed eight districts there would probably be three democratic and five republican. This would give to the democrats thirteen and to the republicans twenty Senators. Under the present system of single districts, the democrats have five and the republicans twenty-seven senators. This ought to dispose of the complaint that the plan recommended by the committee does injustice to the democratic party. If that party cannot avail itself of its nearly equal aggregate strength in the State with the republicans, to secure a proportionate number of Senators, the difficulty must be other than one of purpose. It lies really in the accident of location. The great democratic preponderance is in one corner of the State, while the republican strength lies broadcast over the whole interior, in such a manner that no division could be made without the grossest and most outrageous injustice that would give republicans less than five districts If the fourth, sixth and fourteenth wards of New York could be attached to the Fourth district, in place of the counties of Washington, Essex and Saratoga, it is true the republican preponderance in St. Lawrence might be overcome, and a democratic district established where there is now a republican one, especially if the plan of "repeaters" referred to the other day by the gentleman from Westchester [Mr. Greeley], and other favorite election appliances peculiar to New York city could be transferred to that district; but unless some earthquake system like this be adopted, no democratic district could be by any possibility established north or west of Albany. I will simply say in conclusion, that if it be the sense of the Convention, that there should be eight senate districts, the plan of the committee is a fair and practical one. Either it or a wholly new scheme must be adopted; for a change in one district involves a change in some other district; and the continuity once broken, a general rebuilding becomes necessary; mero patchwork will not suffice. Mr. BARKER -The question before the committee is, whether the present arrangement of electing Senators by single districts shall be continued, or that of electing by large districts, as recommended in the report, and provided by the Constitution prior to 1846, shall prevail. Upon that proposition I desire to ask the attention of the committee for a few moments. The change that has been recommended by the committee in this respect is not altogether fundamental. It is necessarily based upon observation and experience, and unless it can be demonstrated that some advantage is gained by the change, then I apprehend this Convention will not recommend a return to the system of large districts. All modern representative governments divide the legislative branch into two departments, and for the reason that the people being represented through the Legislature may by their own votes have a check upon the legislative action of their own servants, and hence the two departments are created. It is that each may be independent in its character, each have a check upon the other, and prevent hasty and unwise legislation and the maturing of corrupt schemes. Now, this is better effected by the Ilan as reported by the committee than by adhering to the present system; for to have the full advantage of the plan which I have stated, these two bodies must be elected at different times. If they are elected upon the same day and by the same constituency, there is nothing gained by dividing them into two chambers; they may as well be in one body and deliberate together, as to be separate. Hence, they should be elected by a different constituency, at different times, and have a differ. ent tenure of office. I submit that by the single district system these advantages are practically lost. The constituencies are nearly the same as those of the Assembly, they are often nominated by the influence of the same public men, are controlled by the same political considerations, and are elected at the same election every other year, and in spirit, in policy and effect, the same as if the legislative power was vested in one legislative body. It is suggested by the gentleman from Cortland [Mr. Ballard], who offers this amendment, that the people are not directly represented if we go back to these large districts. I apprehend that is a simple fallacy. It is a common statement to make; it is pleasant to one's own lips; it is sometimes a satisfactory reason to one's own self as an argument, to state so popular a proposition; but is not the legislative department of this State when created under the system proposed by the committee a direct representation of the people? It is in every practical sense and is satisfactory to the people. I submit further that another advantage that is gained by the State is in having experience and intelligence in the members. That is all that a free people need to secure wise legislation, and to raise the legislative department of the government above the often repeated, and as I think, unfounded and unsustained charge of corruption against legislators, and I submit that we have had experience enough to demonstrate that a man must be in public life before he is fully competent to discharge all the duties of a public position. No judge is ripe in his experience and entirely commands the respect of the people, without experience, no lawyer gains reputation without experience, no financier is successful without experience, and in my judgment, the State of 660 New York has suffered somewhat in its character through its legislative department from want of experience in its members. I know that the channels of information are open to every private citizen, but how few of an intelligent community comprehend all the details in the affairs of a great State. Few indeed. And no man can represent a constituency well, until he adds to integrity and sound judgment some experience. This, sir, is all I desire to say in behalf of the system of large senatorial districts. It has pleased some of the gentlemen who have spoken upon the subject of this report to characterize the action of the committee as partisan in the manner in which they have recommended the districts in the State. I thought that I would not reply to it, but it comes from dignified and respectable gentlemen upon this floor, who use this charge of "party trick" with a freedom that indicates that they believe that the gentlemen who compose this committee are not sensitive, when resting under such imputations or not spirit enough to resent it. Such a charge can only be made by a man who comes here to serve a party rather than his State. A party trick? The gentleman could scarcely have made the charge expecting that this committee would be moved by it, but he has perhaps the vanity to suppose that he would receive approbation in his local constituency by making such unjust and unfounded remarks. This committee was divided, as others are, between the two political parties that are represented in this Convention, and the minority of that committee, who represents the minority in this body, signed this report cheerfully after they had heard free discussion in the committee, the fairness of all propositions, and the due consideration of suggestions from all quarters, and concurred in the district system which we have presented. It is attacked by these gentlemen on the ground that we do not represent a certain portion of the population of this State. I Submit that every portion of the population of this State that is entitled to consideration in the formation of a government of a State are duly and justly considered. The idea that a free and intelligent people when deliberating upon their organic law shall consult with any specific degree the rights of an alien, I deny. They are not citizens; they are inhabitants, they are residents in the body politic, that all just and wise laws will protect, and demand of them obedience to such laws as are enacted, and beyond that they are not entitled to any consideration. The idea of considering a portion of the body politic, a class that is not represented by the organic law, seems to me to be unwise. It is said again by the learned delegate from the county of Rockland [Mr. Conger], that by the Constitution of 1846, aliens are only excluded when they are not taxed. I think the honorable gentleman is more of an orator than a lawyer. Now, one word more in regard to the claim that has been presented that the second senatorial district as reported by the committee represents too much population, and had in its objects a motive, as the gentleman from Richmond [Mr. Brooks] said, a political bearing. Now, I submit that the taking of the county of Westchester from the second dis trict as proposed does not change the political bearing of district number two, nor can it affect the political bearing of any district to which it may be added. It would be the grossest gerrymandering; it would excite the odium of every community if this committee or this Convention should adopt any other rule than that of equality of population as near as practicable, and that, I submit, is the character of the report of the committee. Now, take the population of the county of Westchester from the second district and it leaves only 376,000, which is below the full ratio, and makes it the smallest district in the list. This is the only county contiguous to the second district as I look upon the map. I am informed, and I doubt not correctly, because it is common report, that tile inhabitants of the county of Westchester are the business men of the great cities that lie below it, and that they are in political communion with those cities; they are many of them the public men of that district, and they are more appropriately and wisely connected with the lower districts than they would be to be put in districts with the river counties, extending necessarily up as far as this capital. As to the other districts, their formation, the territory embraced, and the population and the community of interest, my colleague upon the committee, from Oneida [Mr. Shermran], has very properly replied to. With these remarks, I am very glad to have the report of the committee discussed by all the members; and if it shall appear that it is open to any of the criticisms that are mentioned, why then we can acknowledge them like men. But I may say here, that it was an unpleasant task for the committee to commence this districting of the State. It was one which I thought had better be handed over to the next Legislature that should meet after the adoption of this Constitution, but the majority thought it was best, and in conformity with precedent that this Convention should do it. If it shall be the wisdom of this Convention to submit it to the legislative body, I will most cheerfully vote for it. Mr. CONGER-I do not desire to interrupt the gentleman. I wish merelyThe CHAIRMAN-The gentleman is not in order, having already spoken. Mr. CONGER-I merely wish to speak to a question of privilege. I wish to say to the gentleman who last spoke that he misunderstood me if he supposed that I charged any party trick upon the committee. The language I used was in the alternative, if I rememberThe CHAIRMAN -The Chair is of the opinion that that is not a question of privilege that the Committee can entertain. Mr. SCHOONMAKER-The gentleman who has just sat down [Mr. Barker] says that he is in favor of having this apportionment made in conformity with the population. He has also said that the ratio of representation under the Constitution of 1846 was not as alleged by the gertleman from Rockland [Mr. Conger]. I have that Constitution before me, and I allege that the gentleman from Rockland [Mr. Conger] is correct in his version of that Constitution. I read from the Constitution of 1846: "An enumeration of the inhabitants of the State shall be taken under :'661 the direction of the Legislature in the year exceeds the population of the sixth district by 1855, and at the end of every ten years there- 65,654; and that of the seventh by 88, 18, and after; and the said districts shall be so altered by that of the eighth district by 65,654. Now, the Legislature at the first session after the return Mr. President, I cannot conceive why this of every enumeration, that each senate district committee should go to the judicial district shall contain, as nearly as may be, an equal num- apportionment for the purpose of apportionber of inhabitants, excluding aliens and persons ing the State in reference to the Sen- ' of color not taxed." It means aliens not taxed, ators. That is a division that was not and there can be no other construction given to made originally in reference to population. that phrase. It was made for a judicial district, and the law Mr. RATHBUN —I wish to inquire of the was not made in reference to population, but it gentleman if he observed the comma which is was rather in reference to the convenience of the there after the word "aliens." He seemed to suitors at court, and the convenience of the judges, read as though there was none there. than in reference to the population. Why, then, Mr. SCHOONMAKER- No, sir, there is no should the committee take that apportionment and comma. In conformity to that basis we find in make such inequality inrepresentation throughout our statistical tables the enumeration made in the State? It appears to me, sir, that if this 1865 taken of the inhabitants excluding persons report is to be adopted at all, and the Convention not taxed only. I have gone through with the ap- is to regulate the senate districts, it should be portionment made by the committee upon the referred back to the committee for re-apportionbasis of the population excluding persons not ment. taxed only, and I call the attention of the com- Mr. GREELEY —I would ask the gentleman mittee to the result of it. Upon that basis New to allow me to make a remark which may shorten York, with five Senators, has a surplus of 142,607; this discussion. I will say, though not at liberty the second district upon that basis of population, to speak for the political majority in Westchester, persons not taxed only, has a surplus of 70,299; that if this apportionment of eight senate districts the third district has a deficiency of 55,570; the stands, I shall on behalf of the republicans of fourth district has a surplus of 2,265; the fifth Westchester county very (and I know I represent district has a deficiency of 24,842. their sentiments) earnestly ask that our county be Mr. COOKE- May I ask the gentleman a placed in the third district instead of the second. question? I want to know what the gentleman's It will be an advantage to us politically, and I ratio is? trust this Convention will not keep us out. Mr. SCHOONMAKER - I take the population, Mr. SCHOONMAKER — I care not where the excluding persons not taxed, at about 115,000, as gentleman intends to locate himself; I am enthe Senate ratio; 575,000 as the ratio for five gaged now in the discussion of the inequality of Senators, and 460,000 for four Senators. The the senatorial districts. We look at these senafifth senate district has a deficiency of 24,842; torial districts throughout every portion of the the sixth district has a deficiency of 52,863; the State, and we find that there is an inequality seventh senate district has a deficiency of 60,257, everywhere. In the western portion of the State and the eighth senate district a deficiency of they are small. Take the eastern portion of the 23,301. The population of the second senate State and they are large. As between the two district exceeds the population of the third senate propostions before the committee, the one is for district by 125,769; it exceeds the population of the old system of thirty-two single senatorial disthe fourth senate district by 68,034; it exceeds tricts, and the other is for eight large senatorial the population of the fifth district by 95,141; it districts. I myself would prefer the division of the exceeds the population of the sixth district by State into eight or ten senatorial districts and have 123,162; it exceeds the population of the seventh four Senators from each, but if this apportionment district by 130,556, and it exceeds the popula- is to stand, as between this propositiou and the tion of the eighth senate district by 93,600. one for thirty-two single senatorial districts, I I ask where is the equality in that apportionment? shall go for that rather than take this improper I had always supposed that representation should and unequal apportionment. be made equal, as near as may be, and here we see Mr. M. I. TOWNSEND -I find myself unable that the second senate district exceeds some of the to concur with the committee who have had this other of the ratio senate districts to an extent question under consideration, and reported their entitling them to an additional Senator. Take the views to the Convention. But although differing population as claimed by the committee, exclud- from the committee, I do not concur in any of the ing aliens only. There we find that the first remarks which have been made disparaging the senate district has an excess of 55,298; the conduct of these gentlemen. I have no doubt second has an excess of 48,669; the third has a they discharged their duty with a high sense of deficiency of 33,944; the fourth has an excess of the obligation that has rested upon them. They 9,833; the fifth has a deficiency of 6,928; the have discussed the subject 1 have no doubt among sixth has a deficiency of 16,925; the seventh has themselves faithfully, and have honestly and a deficiency of 40,049; and the eighth has a defici- honorably reported the result of their deliberations ency of 16,985. The population of the second as resting in their own mind. But the report of senatorial district, upon the basis adopted by the the committee is not conclusive upon the Convencommittee, exceeds the population of the third tion however much the Convention may respect senatorial district by 82,613; it exceeds the popu- the gentlemen who make it. And with that view lation of the fourth district by 38,836; it exceeds I hold myself at liberty to adopt my own conchlthe, population of the fifth district by 55,597; it sions, the report notwithstanding, and they are 662 adverse to this whole system of combining large districts in a single organization, and so apportioning those districts, as to have four or five Senators elected in each district. We have thirty-seven States in this Union, all organized upon a republican basis; and I believe there is not one single one of those thirtyseven States in which this principle of apportionment prevails. If we adopt the recommendation of the committee, according to my recollection we shall stand alone, as every other State has adopted the system of single districts. I believe, sir, that is the most judicious system, and that the feeling which is now unanimous in this country is based upon reason and good sense. I am not one of those who would willingly enter into any scheme for the disfranchisement of the electors and the enfranchisement of politicians, and although the committee have evidently not designed it (and I would be the last person in the world to charge them with the intention to produce such a result), I believe if this report is adopted it must necessarily produce the result to restore in the State of New York, the reign of the politicians. It is a necessity resulting from the establishment of the large districts. I do no complain of the arrangement of Albany and St. Lawrence in the same senatorial district, as it must necessarily result if this is to be adopted, but I ask this Convention what is an elector residing in the county of Albany likely to know of the fitness for the office -of Senator if an individual should be nominated whose residence is in the county of St. Lawrence and vice versa? Take the county of Rensselaer, which is in the third district. We are united with the county of Orange, a very reputable county, a county having as excellent a body of citizens doubtless as are in the State, but what will the people of Rensselaer county know about the people of the county of Orange, I mean from personal knowledge, and vice versa? Sir, I believe we will do very much better to do as we have been doing, to have single districts of contiguous territory, where the people will know something personally of the candidates presented. I do not believe the single district system has been a failure. My observation does not teach me so. I know it is usual now to condemn any man, however honorably he may have discharged his duty, who has happened to be a member of either branch of the Legislature. But sir, I think for the last twenty years there have been as many proper, as many high-minded, as many honorable men in your Senate as we had under any former system, and I believe the Senate of the State of New York contains in it as many honorable, intelligent and high-minded men, as ever sat in that Senate at any one time. I know, sir, there are certainly dishonest men in the State; I believe that there are dishonest men in the Legislature; there are very possibly dishonest men in the Senate, but I speak of that body as a body of men, and not as individuals. I say, sir, without fear of contradictionthat there are men in your Senate selected from single districts, that are the peers of any gentleman in the State, in honesty, intelligence and integrity. Why, sir, the enlargement of the district is not going to give us any different material out of which to make our Senate, from what we get in a small district. Every man who would be elected to the Senate if that system be adopted, lives in what would be a small district if the districts were small. But sir, if the districts are large, the voter is not to select the man. The politicians must of necessity select the man. Individual voters in the county of Albany will not know who to nominate for the county of St. Lawrence, the electors in the county of St. Lawrence will not know who to nominate in the county of Albany, if the selection is to be made in Albany county, and the result is the politicians are to make your nominations, and when the nomination is made, the elector has to go to the politician to learn the qualifications of the candidate. Now, sir, in the single district, the elector is brought into close proximity to the man who is the candidate and is able to scrutinize him from his knowledge of him, and from the knowledge he gets from his neighbors, and the man passes the ordeal a man should pass, in order to his being elected to the position of a legislator for the State. I do not wish to see this Convention undertake to turn back the shadow on the dial. It has never been done but once in the history of the world, and it was then done by Divine power, and if the mortal hand of this Convention shall attempt to turn back the shadow on the dial, they will find they have not in their hands the control of that power which performed the miracle in the olden time. The people of this State, in my opinion, have not called for it, and I do not believe it would be satisfactory to them if the Convention adopted it. We have only to go one step further. Just restore the system of executive appointment and we shall have the old reign of politicians restored to a perfect working in this State, as effectually as it existed in 1846. It was the reign then, sir, of Mohammedanism. In the Mohammedan system of religion when every man prays, he does not turn his face toward heaven, but he turns his face toward Mecca; and in the old system which prevailed in New York before 1846, when men prayed they turned their eyes toward Albany. I prefer the Christian system where a man when he prays looks upward toward his God, and I believe that is' the feeling of the State of New York, and I hope this Convention will not introduce into this State a system which has become so odious that our people called out with one voice to have an end put to it. But some minds are so formed that they are constantly looking backward, and dreaming that the former days were not as these days, that the former days were days of great men, and were days of great things, that there was greater virtue and greater intellects in the former days. It has been the characteristic of the human mind all through the ages to look backward. Why, sir, the ancients were always talking about the golden age when Saturn reigned, and yet, sir, those same ancients used to tell us that Saturn in that same golden age devoured his own children, and if our friends should wish to carry us back to the time previous to 1846, I will appeal to their memories-to such of us as have gray heads, and to such as ought 663 to have gray heads, and if those who are younger I understand it is 103,000, and allowing, upon that will ask their fathers whose heads are like mine, adjustment, five senators from the city of New they will find that in those days Saturn devoured York. there is an excess of near 60,000, which his children even here in New York. There were should entitle the city to an additional senator. corrupt men in the Senate even then. A man But this is not all. Tile population of' the city of from my own county was expelled for his cor- New York increases iu a more rapid proportion ruption, and a man in the neighboring county than that of the other parts of the State. Betfre only saved himself from expulsion by resigning the beginning of this century Albany county sent at the moment before the vote was taken. There a larger representation to the Assembly than the have been corrupt men before, and I do not think city and county of New York, but since that we had better not jump into the sea to save our- period the city of New York has increased with a selves from drowning. There will be corrupt men rapidity unexampled in the history of cities durfound while the world shall stand. But our ing the same period. hllis is due to the commerbest way to prevent the influence of corrupt cial advantages of that city with respect to tile men is by going right forward and trusting State, and I may add to the United States and to the people of the State to select their neighbors the world. The increase will continue in the accordig to what they believe are the qualifica- same or in greater proportion, as the city is tions and fitness of those neighbors for office, destined to become by its position the industrial, rather tllan to go upon any complicated system commercial and financial center of this continent. by which this politician and that politician shall At a proper time, in the course of the debate, I or nominate delegates, and send them across the some gentleman representing that city, will offer breadth of the State to nominate some one who an amendment to the report or a resolution to has first graduated in the board of super- recommit it to the Committee ot Revision, that we visors and then graduated in the Assembly. may have two additional Senators instead of one, For such men alone will be nominated, as and that provision may be made for their future they alone will have that acquaintance increase upon the basis of population. I trust with politicians which will secure a nomination when the question comes before it, that the Confor Senator. If that system goes on, we must vention will give it the consideration which it restore the old system of executive appointments, deserves, in a spirit of fairness and justice. for by the time a man has gone through the pro- Mr. A. J. PARKER-I had hoped that a report cess and has graduated in the board of super- might be made by this committee dividing the visors, and graduated in the Assembly system, State into districts, either eight or ten in number, and then graduated in the Senate, he will be in a that we might return to that mode again of choossituation to need an executive appointment to ing Senators instead of choosing them by tlle diskeep him from falling into the position of those trict system. But I regret to find that the report paupers whom the report of the first committee as presented has made such an apportionment proposed to disfranchise. that I cannot support it. And in making my Mr. DALY-Tlle argument of my friend from objections to this report, I do not intend to Rensselaer [Mr. M. I. Townsend] is in effect that charge any partisan motive upon the committee, when we have once made any change we must but I deem it exceedingly unfortunate in the result, never go back, though it may be the result of our so far as political questions are concerned. I tlhink experience that what we had before was infinite- it unfortunate that the city of New York, and the ly better than that which we substituted in its second district next to it, have been given so very place. This is to ignore the teaching of experi- large a proportion of surplus population, or rather ence. During the past forty years we departed, have not been given their proper number of repor at least a large part of this country, from the resentatives, when it operates unjustly toward fundamental principle upon which our national the party with which I act. It is not necesgovernment was established, in favor of certain sary that I should again take up these districts ideas respecting State sovereignty ideas earnestly and show the discrepancy. That has been done entertained, and steadfastly adhered to, but which most carefully and faithfilly by the delegate from the war has dissipated forever. I am of opinion, Ulster [Mr. Schoonmaker] on my right. Here in Mr. Chairman, for many reasous, that the system the city of New York to which they propose to of senatorial districts reported by the give but five Senators, there is in truth a populacomm ittee is better than the one we tion of between seven and eight hundred thousand adopted in 1846. But I do not propose according to the census, and very likely one or now to argue that question; I rise mainly to two hundred thousand more, and the second disobject to the unequal operation of the section trict with four Senators, like the other districts, what fixes five as the number of Senators for the has a population of 541,000 or 464,900, district which I represent, the city and county of excluding aliens, and a very large surplus New York. I do not blame the committee for therefore over all the other districts north and adjusting the representation upon the basis of the west. It is seen that there are three districts that late State census, although convinced that the may show democratic majorities, two at all events. census is erroneous as respects the city of New I think it exceedingly unfortuate that those disYork, the actual population of which in my judg- tricts are the very ones where a large surplus meut is about equal to one-fourth of the popula- population is thrown away in the apportionment tion of the whole State. But adopting even the of the Senators. I will not say it is unfair or tun basis of the census, the city of New York is enti- fairly intended, but unfortunate in tile result. tied to two instead cf one additional Senator. Again, sir, I regard it as equally unfortunate that The proportion of population to a Senator as this county of Albany should be placed in the 664 fourth district with the county of St. Lawrence. It has been well said by the delegate from Rensselaer [Mr. M. I. Townsend], that those two counties, so fai removed from each other in the extreme opposite portions of the State, and having very little communication cannot be so competent to choose candidates who may be presented on one side or the other. The county of Albany, a democratic county, -is thus placed in the fourth district and overwhelmed by the political majority on the other side, when, by being left in the third district, it would much better equalize the population, and it would at least be left to a fairer chance as far as the result is concerned. I complain, therefore, that Albany county is placed in the fourth district, and ask that it may be restored to the third, where it has been in the past, in the judicial district, and in former times in the senatorial district. Now, if a proper equalization can be made of these districts, I should certainly prefer this district system, upon the general idea of the plan reported. I do not see myself where the difficulty is in taking the map of the State of New York, and the result of the census, and dividing it up into either eight or ten districts, fairly and equally, without any great disparity certainly between the different districts. I believe it could be done, but it can only be done now by referring it back to the committee for that purpose. I do not believe it can be done by amendments offered here. As between these as presented, I shall adhere to the present single district system, unless the plan proposed bythe delegate from Westchester [Mr. Greeley] shall be shown to be practical and feasible, and in that case I shall most certainly support it. If any system can be devised which will give a just and proper representation to the minority, I will support it, and I believe the time is not far distant when a system like that will receive the support of all political parties. I think unless some step is taken to make this system more equal and more just in its results, I will have no other way but to fall back on the single district system. Mr. GERRY —I move the committee do now rise, report progress and ask leave to sit again. SEVERAL DELEGATES- "Oh no!" "Oh no!" The question was put on the motion of Mr. Gerry, and on a division it was declared lost. Mr. FULLERTON -I am opposed to dividing the State into only eight senatorial districts, but do not propose even to attempt to make a speech on the subject. I will content myself with merely stating the grounds of such opposition. By the Constitution of 1846, the State was divided into thirty-two senatorial districts. I believe this division has proved satisfactory to the people. At least I do not understand that any complaint has come from them to this Convention against it, or that any prevails to any considerable extent. While senatorial districts may be too small, it is equally true that they may be too large, and the endeavor should be to fix upon a medium between the two extremes. When a division is made that answers the convenience and meets the approbation of the mass of the electors of the State, that division should be adhered to. Such a division we now have, and until it can be Idemonstrated that it is either complained of by the people, or works to the prejudice of the interests of the State, there should be no radical departure from it. My second objection consists in the fact that by large districts, such as are recommended by the committee, the Senator is too far removed from the knowledge of the constituency which elects him. Representation should always be brought as nearly home to the represented as may be practicable. The people always desire to know something of those who are presented to them for their suffrages. When a candidate for any office comes before them for their support, they desire an acquaintance with his standing as a man, and his qualifications and fitness for the office he seeks. And when a senatorial candidate is presented to them, they ought to be able to judge of his ability to represent them as one of the lawmakers of the State. This can only be so to a very limited extent under the system of division recommended by the committee. Again, I object because it is going back to a plan of division that has once been tried, and most emphatically condemned. A change from eight to thirty-two senatorial districts was made by the Convention of 1846, and, according to my understanding, that change was made because the plan of large senatorial districts had been very universally condemned. It had been tried, found fault with by the people, and many of the delegates to the Convention of 1846 came here under instructions to favor single senatorial districts. And, as I understand it, the change was demanded because the old plan was too inconvenient, and because the candidate and his constituents were too far removed from each other. I submit, therefore, that it would be unwise to adopt the recommendation of the committee and go back to a plan or system that has once been tried and rejected. Mr. ALVORD - I do not propose, at this time, to enter largely into a discussion of the question before the committee. I am decidedly, so far as I myself am concerned, in favor of a small number of districts. I believe it has worked admirably in the past history of this State, and that it has been a departure in the wrong direction since we have adopted the single district system. I had hoped that I would be enabled to offer a proposition which seems to me entirely fair, and when the opportunity shall arrive for so doing, I shall endeavor to bring it before the Convention for its consideration. My idea simply is this, we should make eight senatorial districts in this State, making the city of New York one of these districts, calling it the first. It is entitled by its population and position to a representation in the Senate of six senators, against four each for the other seven districts, and that we should leave it to the Legislature of the State in future to settle the boundaries of the other seven districts. I trust, therefore, with this in view that the committee will think and reflect upon this matter before they come to any decision as antagonistic to the idea of eight rather than thirty-two or more single districts, and it is for this purpose only that I have thrown out this idea at this time, because I think it is entitled to a very considerable consideration, and it will relieve a great many men here of any a; prehension of an undue representation or want of representation on the part of the city of New York, and leave the division of the balance of the State to be determined by the action of the Legislature in future, when they can determine it better than we can at the present time. Mr. E. A. BROWN-I move that the committee do now rise, report progress and ask leave to sit again. The question was put on the motion of Mr. E. A. Brown, and it was declared carried, on a division, by a vote of 51 to 42. Whereupon the committee rose and the PRESIDENT pro ter. Mr. ALVORD resumed the Chair in Convention. Mr. ARCHER, from the Committee of the Whole, reported that the committee had had under consideration the report of the Committee on the Legislature, its Organization etc., had made some progress therein, but not having gone through therewith had directed their Chairman to report that fact to the Convention, and ask leave to sit again. The question was put on granting leave and it was declared carried. Mr. CLINTON-I rise simply to ask leave of absence to-morrow for one day. There being no objection leave was granted. On motion of Mr. WEED, the Convention adjourned. FRIDAY, August 2, 1867. The Convention met at 10 o'clock A. M. The PRESIDENTpro tem. Mr. ALVORD, in the Chair. The Journal of yesterday was read by the SECRETARY and approved. Mr. BARKER-I rise to a question of privilege. I think this is the proper time to call the attention of the Convention to a question of privilege which not only relates to me personally but to most of the members of this Convention. It is remissness on the part of the committees in not making their reports to this Convention. It is well known, or at least the idea is entertained, that the committee will soon dispose of the pending proposition and then we are to take up another which cannot in any event have been reported but a short time to this Convention, and I believe it is a just cause of complaint that many of the committees have not made their report, so that the members of this Convention could know what prop. osition they are to consider, and that their minds might be maturing upon these subjects. When we dispose of the pending proposition, what is to be the next report? What member of the Convention can come to any conclusion upon a proposition upon which he is called upon to vote. I know that three or four committees have reported, but there are yet some twenty-two reports to be made to this Convention, and with all due deference to the members of the respective committees, I submit they are remiss in their duties. This is my question of privilege, and I hope some action will be taken by which the Convention will call upon the members-of the committees to be more prompt in the discharge of their duties. 84 Mr. E. BROOKS-If this is to be regarded as a question of privilegeThe PRESIDENT pro tem.-The Chair is of opinion it is not. Mr. E. BROOKS —I ask permission of the Convention to say a word in reply to the gentleman who has just taken his seat. If this is to be regarded as a question of privilege, I respectfully submit that it is the Convention itself which has been remiss in its duties, rather than the respective standing committees of the Convention. You vote that we shall meet at ten o'clock in the morning, and then again at four o'clock in the afternoon, and you have established a rule that we shall meet here also at half-past seven o'clock in the evening. With the long sessions that have been in this body during the three weeks past, it is physically impossible for the committees to meet and enter upon the proper discharge of the great interests committed to them. The fault, therefore, is with the Convention rather than with the committees. Mr. L. W. RUSSELL presented the petition of A. Phillips, of Morristown, St. Lawrence county, asking for a provision in the Constitution prohibiting the donations of public money to sectarian institutions. Which was referred to the Committee on the Powers and Duties of the Legislature. Mr. L. W. RUSSELL also presented the petition of Rev. 0. Holmes, Marvin Holt, Emery Alexander and other citizens of De Kalb, St. Lawrence county, on the same subject. Which took the same reference. Mr. C. C. DWIGHT presented the petition of Dr. J. D. Button and forty-seven others, citizens of Cayuga county, on the same subject, Which took the same reference. Mr. A. F. ALLEN presented the petition of E. Mills and forty-five others on the same subject. Which took the same reference. Mr. CORBETT presented the petition of citizens of Spafford, Onondaga county on the same subject. Which took the same reference. Mr. HADLEY presented the petition of A. R. Long, and one hundred others, citizens of Penn Yan, Yates county, on the same subject. Which took the same reference. Mr. SCHOONMAKER presented the petition of John G. Mead, and others, of Schenectady, on the same subject. Which took the same reference. Mr. CARPENTER presented the petition of Rev. A. H. Seely, and others, of Dutchess county, on the same subject. Which took the same reference. Mr. CLARK presented the petition of seventyfour inhabitants of Livingston county, on the same subject. Which took the same reference. Mr. BAKER presented the petition of J. W. Elkins, and fifty-eight others, citizens and tax payers of Salem, Washington county, on the sam# subject. Which took the same reference. Mr. GOULD presented the petition of ninety seven citizens of Matteawan, Dutchess county, on the same subject. Which took the same reference. Mr. GREELEY presented the petition of -ex 666 Mayor Hall, and several hundred others, citizens Tuesday morning. My duties as treasurer of a of Brooklyn, on the same subject. society require me to be in New York to-morrow. Which took the same reference. There being no objection, leave was granted. Mr. GREELEY also presented the petition of Mr. BELL presented the petition of Alva Wash. J. N. Stearns, and several hundred others, citizens burn and eighteen others. citizens of Brownville, of Kings county; also petition of E. L. Evans Jefferson county, asking for a provision in the and others. citizens of New York city, praying for Constitution to secure to the people of this State the submission of a separate clause prohibiting "The right to take and catch fish in tih interthe sale of intoxicating liquors as a beverage. national waters bordering on this State, and disThe petitions were referred to the Committee pose of the same." on Adulterated Liquors. Which was referred to the Committee on the Mr. LEE, presented the petition of Zachariah Preamble and Bill of Rights. Allpert, and fifteen others, citizens of Scriba, Os- Mr. MASTEN presented the petition of John wego county; also petition of D. D. Davis, and Percy, upon bribery and official corruption. seventy-nine others, of Hannibal, Oswego county, Which was referred to the Committee on the asking for a provision in the Constitution prohibi- Suppression of Official Corruption. ting the donations of public money to sectarian Mr. E. P. BROOKS presented the petition of institutions. S. Chapman and others, of Steulben county. asking The petitions were referred to the Committee on for a provision in the Constitution prohibiting the the Powers and Duties of the Legislature. donation of public money to sectarian institutions. Mr. DUGANNE presented the petition of ex- Which was referred to the Committee on the Governor King, and one hundred and nineteen Powers and Duties of the Legislature. others, on the same subject. Mr. CLINTON-It is necessary that I should Which took the same reference. be absent to-morrow and Monday; I therefore Mr. STRATTON presented the petition of Chas. ask leave of absence for tlose two days. Johnson, and one hundred and five others, citizens There being no objection, leave was granted. of tile city of New York, asking that the Legis- Mr. BAKER -I ask leave of absence for myself lature be prohibited from passing other than gen- for to-morrow, in consequence of professional eral laws on the subjects of the traffic in fer- business tlat I am obliged to attend. mented wiues and liquors, and for the mainte- There being no objection, leave was granted. nance of public older and morality. Mr. COOKE-I ask leave of absence for toWhic was referred to the Committee on Adul- morrow, on account of unavoidable engagements. terated Liquors. There being no objection, leave was granted. Mr. GROSS presented several petitions from Mr. DUGANNE-I ask leave of absence from the citizens of Poughkeepsie against prohibitory to-night until Monday morning. legislation and in favor of uniform laws, and the Mr. GREELEY-I object. regulation of the trade in fermented liquors and Mr. DUGANNE-I would state the fact that wines. there has been sickness in my family for the last The petitions were referred to the Committee week; I have been endeavoring to get away; I on Adulterated Liquors. wish to be excused on that ground. Mr. DUGANNE presented the petition of The question was put upon granting Mr. DuDaniel P. Jones and one hundred and eighteen ganne leave of absence, and it was declared carothers, asking for a provision in the Constitution ried. prohibiting the donations of public money to sec- Mr. C. L. ALLEN, from the Committee on the tarian institutions. Governor, Lieutenant-Governor, etc., submitted Which was referred to the Committee on the the following report: Powers and Duties of the Legislature. The standing Committee on the Governor and Mr. BECKWITH-I wish to ask leave of Lieutenant-Governor, their election, tenure of absence for ten days in consequence of the sick- office, compensation, powers and duties, except as ness of my eldest son. otherwise referred, respectfully report the followThere being no objection, leave was granted. ing article as the result of their deliberations: Mr. GRANT-I desire to ask leave of absence They have not deemed it necessary or advisable for myself for three days, on account of business to recommend many amendments to article 4 of the engagements. existing Constitution; believing that no very There being no objection, leave was granted. essential change is demanded, except in such parMr. KERNAN-I ask leave of absence for Mr. tlculars as they have designated. Ferry for an indefinite period. I think as county They have accordingly submitted copies of the judge he is required to hold court next week. I first, second, third, sixth and seventh sections of ask leave of absence for him for that reason. that article, and are in favor of their entire adop. There being no objection, leave was granted. tion. They prefer to use language as far as pracMr. KRUM -I ask leave of absence for my ticable, which has been settled and approved by colleague, Mr. Miller, who is afflicted with rheuma. long and well established usage and judicial contism and not able to be here. I ask leave of struction, rather than to adopt a new and unsettled absence for him until Tuesday morning. phraseology which would not be so well calculated There being no objection, leave was granted, to secure the continued existence of provisions Mr. M. H. LAWRENCE-I ask leave of which they have unanimously approved. absence until Monday evening. They have proposed to amend the fourth secThere being no objection, leave was granted, tion, by providing that the compensation of the Mr. B.ARNARD-I ask leave of absence until Governor shall be established by law. While 667 your committee are fully of the opinion that the present compensation is far less than the Chief Magistrate of the Empire State should be entitled to receive, they believe it not wise or expedient to name or determine its amount in the Constitution, but have proposed that it be first fixed by the Legislature, at its first session after the adoption of this Constitution, in order that it may not be subject to the caprices and temptations of Legislative enactment, after the election of the successful candidate, or during his continuance in office. To the section providing for the compensation of the Lieutenant-Governor, your committee have added the clause, that when the Legislature shall have determined its amount by law, he shall not receive or be entitled to receive, any additional compensation, fees or perquisites, for any other duties or services he may be required to perform, by virtue of his office, or in any other capacity. The reasons for inserting this restriction, must be perfectly obvious to every member of the Convention, and it is unnecessary to detail them here. They will be cheerfully stated, if called for in Committee of the Whole, or in the Convention. It is proposed to amend the section relating to the veto power, by requiring a vote of twothirds of the whole number composing each branch of the Legislature, to pass a bill notwithstanding the objections of the Governor. By the existing Constitution, no bill can be passed, unless by the assent of a majority of all the members elected to each house; and yet, if the Governor shall object, each house, on a reconsideration, may approve of such bill by a vote of two-thirds of all the members present, and it will then become a law; thus, in effect, not only greatly weakening and rendering, in a manner, utterly powerless the objections of the Executive, but also virtually annulling that part of the section, requiring in the first instance a vote of a majority of all the members elected. The propriety of the proposed amendment cannot be reasonably doubted, and its necessity under the alarming evils, which have existed for the last ten years, and which there is great reason to fear will continue and increase unless effectually restrained and prevented, will, in the judgment of your committee be manifestly apparent. It will be perceived that your committee have had under consideration the resolution referred to them of Mr. Dwight, of Oneida. They have deemed it expedient, not only to incorporate the provision contemplated by the resolution, but to extend the power of the Governor so that he may approve of any part or parts of a bill, containing separate and distinct provisions, and, disapprove of any other part or parts of the same bill. It has not unfrequently been the case that bills proposing to enact wholesome and salutary laws have also contained provisions of so objectionable a character as to prevent their approval by the Governor, and thus many measures highly con. ducive and almost indispensable to the public welfare have been defeated, or have been preserved only by carrying with them enactments highly odious and offensive. Indeed, it is well known that obnoxious propositions have been artfully inserted in bills, for the purpose of en. forcing their enactment, under the calculation, not often ill-founded, that honest members of the Legislature would be induced to suffer them to pass into laws, rather than to lose the benefit of the inobjectionable features. In other instances, they have been introduced during the last stages of legislation; and amid the hurry, and confusion, and excitement. always prevailing at such a time, they have been precipitated into laws, when if they had been proposed in separate bills, they never could have received the sanction of the Legislature. The substance of the clause suggested in the referred resolution, with the addition recommended by the committee, has therefore been inserted in the eighth section. Your committee have deemed it expedient to determine that the time for signing bills shall cease with the adjournment of the Legislature, instead of leaving the power unlimited as it now is, and enabling the Governor to sign them at any time during the recess. This amendment your committee believe they cannot recommend too strongly to the favorabe consideration of the Convention. It is unnecessary to enter into details of the reasons for its expediency or propriety. They will readily commend themselves to the minds of the Convention. The requirement will not only serve as a more sure protective against all fraud and corruption, which may be attempted on the part of those interested in the passage of bills, but will no doubt greatly relieve the executive from ceaseless and incessant importunities and temptations to which the unscrupulous and designing are ever ready to resort. It will, in short, in the judgment of your committee, serve as a great additional safeguard to the interests of the State. The objection that bills passed during the last few days of the session may thus fail to become laws, can be obviated by the Legislature, and they can easily accommodate themselves in the passage of bills to this restriction. It is scarcely necessary to add that it is in harmony with the Constitution of the United States, in respect to the power of th, President to sign bills passed by Congress which has always proved eminently successful, and has met with the approbation of all since the organization of the general government. With these amendments your committee respectfully submit the whole article, and recommend its adoption by the Convention. C. L. ALLEN, Chairman. E. P. BROOKS, AMASA J. PARKER, T. T. FLAGLER, S. WAKEMAN, S. F. MILLER, S. B. GARVIN. ARTICLE. SECTION 1. The executive power shall be vested in a Governor who shall hold his office for two years; a Lieutenant-Governor shall be chosen at the same time and for the same term. ~ 2. No person except a citizen of the United States shall be eligible to the office of Governor, nor shall any person be eligible to that offico who shall not have attained the age of thirty years, and who shall not have been five years next pre. Senate and Assembly, shall, before it becomes a ceding his election, a resident within this State. law, be presented to the Governor. If he approves ~ 3. The Governor and Lieutenant-Governor of the bill he shall sign it. But if he disapprove shall be elected at the time and places of choosing of it, or of any part or parts of it containing members of the Assembly. The persons respect- separate and distinct provisions, he shall return it ively having the highest number of votes for to that house in which the bill shall have originaGovernor and Lieutenant-Governor shall be ted, with his objections to the whole, or such elected; but in case two or more shall have an part or parts of it, as lie shall disapprove, which equal and the highest number of votes for Gov- shall enter the objections at large on their journal ernor, or for Lieutenant-Governor, the two houses and proceed to reconsider it. If after such reconof the Legislature at. its next annual session shall sideration either of an entire bill or of a part or forthwith by joint ballot choose one of the said parts of said bill objected to, as the case may be; persons so having an equal and 'the highest two-thirds of all the members elected to that number of votes for Governor or Lieutenant-Gov- house, shall agree to pass the whole bill, it shall ernor. be sent together with the objections, to the other ~ 4. The Governor shall be commander-in-chief house, by which it shall be reconsidered, and if of the military and naval forces of the State. lie approved by two-thirds of all the members elected shall have power to convene the Legislature (or to that house it shall become a law, notwithstandthe Senate only) on extraordinary occasions. He ing the objections of the Governor. If either of shall communicate by message to the Legislature the two houses shall not thus approve of the at every session the condition of the State, and part or parts objected to, the bill containing such recommend such measures to them as he shall part or parts as shall be approved by the Governor judge expedient. He shall transact all necessary shall without unnecessary delay, after the vote is business with the officers of the government, civil taken on such reconsideration, be engrossed as a and military. He shall expedite all such measures separate bill, and returned to the Governor for his as may be resolved upon by the Legislature, and signature. But in all such cases the votes of shall take care that the laws are faithfully exe- both house sshall be determined by yeas and nays, cuted. He shall at stated times receive for his and the names of the members voting for and services a compensation to be established by law, against the bill shall be entered on the journal of to be first fixed by the Legislature at its first each house respectively. If any bills shall not be session after the adoption of this Constitution, returned by the Governor within ten days (Sunand which compensation shall neither be increased days excepted) after it shall have been presented or diminished after his election or during his term to him, the same shall be a law in like manner as of office. if he had signed it, unless the Legislature shall by ~ 5. In case of the impeachment of the Governor their adjournment prevent its return, in which or his removal from office, death, inability to dis- case it shall not be a law. The right of the Govcharge the powers and duties of the said office, ernor to sign bills shall cease with the adjournresignation or absence from the State, the powers ment of the Legislature. and duties of the office shall devolve upon the The report was referred to the Committee of the Lieutenant-Governor for the residue of the term, Whole, and ordered to be printed. or until the disability shall cease. But when the Mr. C. L. ALLEN, from the same committee, Governor shall, with the consent of the Legisla- submitted the further following report: ture, be out of the State in time of war, at the The standing Committee on the Governor, Lieuhead of a military force thereof, he shall continue tenant-Governor, etc., to which was referred the commander-in-chief of all the military forces of resolution of Mr. Develin, instructing it to consider the State. the propriety and expediency of limiting the veto ~ 6. The Lieutenant-Governor shall possess the power to questions of constitutionality exclusively, same qualifications of eligibility for office as the respectfully report; that they have had the resoGovernor. He shall be president of the Senate, lution under consideration, and have come to the but shall have only a, casting vote therein. If conclusion that it would not be wise or expedient during a vacancy of the office of Governor, the to limit this power as proposed by the resolution. Lieutenant-Governor shall be impeached, dis- Your committee believe that it has always been placed, resign, die, or become incapable of per- regarded as one of the surest safeguards against forming the duties of his office, or he be absent hasty, improvident and corrupt legislation. They from the State, the President of the Senate shall are decidedly of the opinion that the instances act as Governor until the vacancy be filled or the would be rare, in which measures would be adopdisability shall cease. ted or bills passed, containing provisions clearly ~ 7. The Lieutenant-Governor shall receive for and palpably unconstitutional. But while they his services a compensation to be established by entertain no doubt on this subject, they are law, to be first fixed by the Legislature at its first fully convinced that the veto power should not session after the adoption of this Constitution, be confined to cases of such improbable occurrence and which compensation shall neither be increased and which can always be controlled by or diminished, after his- election or during his the courts. On the contrary it should be term of office, and he shall not receive or be enti- retained and preserved as a check to inconsidtied to any other or further compensation, fees or erate measures, which may be often hurried perquisites for any other duties or services he through the Legislature and become laws highly may be required to perform by virtue of his office detrimental to the public weal. by this Constitution or by law. The wisdom of the framers of the Constitutions ~8. Every bill which shall have passed the of 1821 and 1846, in incorporating this measure 669 into those instruments, is clearly apparent to your committee; and the history of the Legislature of the State for the past ten years, and of the necessary and timely exercise of its salutary influence by the Executive, has served to strengthen their conviction of the correctness of the conclusion to which they have arrived. Your committee, therefore, ask to be discharged from the further consideration of the resolution. C. L. ALLEN, Chairman. Mr. DUGANNE, from the Committee on Industrial Interests, submitted the following report: The SECRETARY proceeded to read the report, as follows: The Committee on Industrial Interests not otherwise referred, to whom was referred the memorial of H. C. Spaulding relative to the drainage of agricultural lands, beg leave to report: That they have duly considered the subject, and have instructed their chairman to recommend the following section to be a part of the amended Constitution, viz.: SECTION —. The Legislature may pass laws authorizing and permitting parties owning or occupying lands, to construct agricultural drains across the lands of other parties, when such drains shall be necessary; and under proper restrictions and under proper remuneration. And they ask to be discharged from the further consideration of the subject. A. J. H. DUGANNE, EDWARD J. FARNUM, LESTER M. CASE, GIDEON WALES, MAGNUS GROSS, E. P. MORE, J. P. ARMSTRONG. Mr. DUGANNE from the same committee submitted the further following report: The SECRETARY proceeded to read the report as follows: The Committee on Industrial Interests having considered the resolution referred to them July 9th, on the right of the people of this State to catch and take fish in certain waters of the State, beg leave respectfully to report: That at the last session of the Legislature, an act was passed ostensibly for the preservation of "moose, wild deer, birds and fresh water fish;" and that said act, becoming a law, has injuriously affected an important industrial interest of the State, more particularly on the river St. Lawrence, whose fisheries afford employment and subsistence to not less than ten thousand persons in the county of Jefferson alone. Your committee do not deem it proper to propose the constitutional assertion of any right which might hereafter conflict with necessary legislation for the preservation of game or regulation of fisheries at certain seasons; but, inasmuch as certain lakes and rivers of the State are so located as to be accessible for fishing purposes to the inhabitants of an alien country, as well as to our own citizens, and, in consequence of this fact, no restrictions upon our citizens can restrain aliens from taking fish in the same waters, but will only operate to give the said aliens an undue advantage over citizens of this State, your com mittee have unanimously directed their ehairman to recommend that the following section be, in its proper place, embodied with the Constitution. SECTION -. "The right to take and catch fish in any of the international waters bordering on this State, and the rivers and bays thereof, and to dispose of such fish, shall not be denied or restrained." A. J. H. DUGANNE, Chairman. MAGNUS GROSS, EDWARD J. FARNUM, GIDEON WALES, LESTER M. CASE, E. P. MORE. Mr. EVARTS-Would it be in order to move that this report and the subject be referred to the Committee on the Preamble and Bill of Rights? ' The PRESIDENT pro tem.-The Chair is of the opinion that motion is now in order. Mr. EVARTS-Then I move it be referred to the Committee on the Preamble and Bill of Rights. The question was put on the motion of Mr. Evarts, and it was declared carried. Mr. EVARTS-A reference was made by the Chair of the report from the Committee on Industrial Interests, on the subject connected with the right of drainage-that is of affinity with the right of private ways; it is a part of the bill of rights, and, if it is in order, I now move that that report shall be referred to the Committee on the Preamble and Bill of Rights. I think it will facilitate the action of the Convention. The PRESIDENT pro tem.-The Chair holds that it is now in order. Mr. DUGANNE - I will state that it was the intention of the committee that those two propositions should be referred to the Committee on the Preamble and Bill of Rights. The question was put on the motion of Mr. Evarts, and it was declared carried. Mr. BEADLE-The Committee on Banking and Insurance, and the standing Committee on Corporations other than Municipal, Banking and Insurance, finding in the discharge of their duties and the consideration of the subjects referred to them, that it was probable from the similarity of subjects that any separate report made by either committee was likely to trench upon or conflict the one with tile other, have united in their meetings and cousultations, and ask leave to make a joint report. Mr. BALLARD, from the two several Committees on Currency, Banking and Insurance, and on Corporations other than Municipal, Banking and Insurance, submitted the following joint report: ARTICLE VIII. SECTION 1. Corporations may be formed under general laws, but shall not be created or amended by special act, except for municipal purposes. All general laws (and special acts) passed pursuant to this section, or which may have been heretofore passed, may be altered from time to time or repealed. ~ 2. Dues from corporations shall be secured by such individual liability of the corporators and other means as may be prescribed by law. 6TO ~ 3. The term corporation. as used in this licity to the proposition, and excite opposition, if article, shall be construed to include all associa- there should be any. tions and joint stock companies having any of the General laws cannot provide for the special privileges and powers of corporations not needs of different classes of corporations. Do possessed by partnerships or individuals. And persons interested desire to build a railroad from all corporations shall have the right to sue and an ore bed and lay a wooden rail covered with shall be subject to be sued in all courts in like iron? Tle general railroad law says the rail must cases as natural persons. weigh fifty-six pounds to the lineal yard. ~ 4. The Legislature shall have no power to Does a ferry company wish the sole privilege pass any law sanctioning in any manner, directly of ferriage for a portion of a river in order to or indirectly the suspension of specie payments by render the enterprise sufficiently profitable to warany person or corporation. rant the undertaking? It would be impossible to ~ 5. The Legislature shall provide by law for make a general rule which would apply with the the registry of all bills or notes issued or put il same beneficial results to a sparsely as to a circulation as money, and shall require ample se- densely settled district giving the same monopoly, curity for the redemption of the same in specie. as to distance, to each. ~ 6. The stockholders in every corporation But it is useless to multiply illustrations. It shall be individually liable to the amount of their would be impossible to foresee the special necesrespective share or shares of stock in any such sities which might arise in different cases. Therecorporation, for all its debts and liabilities, fore intrust it to the Legislature which sits oftener HORATIO BALLARD, than once in twenty years and can thus mould Chairman. legislation to varying needs. I, therefore, respectfully submit, that it is best Which was referred to the Committee of the to retain the section of the existing Constitution Whole and ordered to be printed. on this subject. Mr. L. W. RUSSELL, from the same commit- Neither have I been able to agree with the tee, submitted a minority report. committee in requiring individual liability for the The SECRETARY proceeded to read the re- payment of the debts of all corporations, on the port, as follows: part of stockholders, to an amount equal to the The undersigned cannot agree with the majority amount of their stock. of the Joint Committee on Corporations in so Since the formation of the State the experience changing the present Constitution as to inhibit and wisdom of its Legislatures have directed that the Legislature from creating corporations or the stockholders in some corporations should be amending the charters, if any, by special acts. personally liable, and in others, not. Some are It is urged by those who support this measure formed for purely business and money making that the creation and amendment of special char- purposes-others for scientific-and still others ters are prolific causes for legislation, that they for purely benevolent uses. Some, as many rail beget corruption, and that general laws should and plank-road companies, are anticipated failures alone provide for the different classes. as moneyed speculations, and the incorporators In answering this position, I assume that after subscribe,never expecting to see their money again, safeguards shall have been placed around future but are content with the general good attained by Legislatures, by this Convention, to insure their the performance of the objects of their creation. purity, and provision is made for decent payment It is a well known fact that the pioneers in such of legislators, honest and capable men will be enterprises lose their investments while their sucelected, and should it be otherwise the people cessors reap the profits. Under the present laws will prove to be as bad as their representatives. in incorporated academies and other institutions In that event all the work of this Convention will of learning, the incorporators incur no personal be in vain, for positive law cannot revivify the liability. In manufacturing, mining, mechanical, waning virtae of a State. chemical, railroad and gas-light companies, tlJey Confident in this assumption, I believe our fu- are liable only till the capital stock is paid in, ture legislators will be unassailable by corrup- except as regards laborers and servants of the tion. company. In bridge companies the directors are And though applications to our Legislature for responsible if debts are contracted beyond the special charters, and amendments to charters, are amountt of the capital stock. In insurance comvery numerous, yet that only proves that ours is panies the corporators are liable only till the stock a great State, and the requirements of its corn- is paid in. while the law fixes upon the members merce and business numerous. Smaller States do of telegraph companies a personal responsiblity not have the same needs. equal to 25 per cent more than the amount of And though such matters occupy a great deal their stock. of the time of our legislators, yet that is what Thus the experience of the past has demon. we elect them for. They are sent to hear the strated that distinction should be made between wants of the people, to receive and consider their diverse classes of corporations in charging upon applications, and if proper, to grant tlem. Are the members a personal liability for obligations. we willing to adopt the principle that ourl fiture It seems proper to hleed its teachings. legislative body cannot be trusted with such de- In order to carry out the very object of the tails? creation of banking and other moneyed corporaProvision by law exists for advertising the pro- tions, it is necessary to establish proper conflposed application for a special charter or amend- dence in their ability to meet pecuniary obligament. This ought to be sufficient to give pub- tions. Hence the necessity to insure such ability 671 S w A - b b S ~ by stringent laws. But the same requirements shares of stock in any such corporation or associado not exist with other associations. Therefore I tion for all its debts and liabilities of every kind. " would leave the Legislature to say what laws TRACY BEADLE, upon this subject should apply to each particular BENJ. N. HUNTINGTON, class, and hence prefer to retain the section of the WILLIAM D. VEEDER, present Constitution applicable to this topic. JOHN EDDY, It is further submitted that a clause should be WM. HITCHMAN. incorporated into the Constitution providing that foreign corporations doing business in this State Mr. LANDON gave notice that he would at a should deposit security here for the punctual per- future day ask the adoption of the following resoformaice of their obligations, leaving the Legis lution: lature to prescribe the details. The present laws Resolved, That the previous question may be require this of insurance companies. applied to the particular sections of an article There are a host of mining, mechanical and or other question under consideration, without other corporations, the creatures of other States including the whole article or main question. and countiies, many of them almost myths, with Which was laid on the table under the rule. no pecuniary responsibility, which find it con- Mr. GERRY -I call up for consideration the venient, after doing business and contracting resolution offered by me, in reference to a report obligations here, to retire, "and like the unsub- of the conmmon council of New York. stantial pageant of a dream, leaving no trace The SEICRIETiARY proceeded to read the resolubehind." It seems as thoulgh the corporations of tion, as follows: our State were sufficient for the wants of our Reso!ved, Tlhat the clerk of the common council people, and if others are permitted to enjoy privi- of the city of New York be and he is hereby leges here, let them protect our citizens in their requested to furnish this Convention with copies dealings. of the report of a select commnittee of such common The object of incorporations is to combine the council heretofore appointed to inquire and report associated action of many, as one artificial person what rights and franchises now belong to said city, with exemption from personal responsibility to its and of what rights and franchises said:2ity has members. Such privileges should be granted to been deprived by legislative interference or otherthe creations of other States, whose charters are wise. independent of our control, only when the inter- Mr. HUTCHINS-I move that that resolution ests of the people of our State are fully secured. be referred to the Committee on the Powers and I, therefore, recommend that a clause be inserted in Duties of the Legislature. the Constitution in substance as follows: Mr. GERRY —My object in offering the resolution "The Legislature shall provide that foreign was for the purpose of procuring the informnation, corporations shall secure the performance of ob- as well for the Committee on the Powers and ligatious created in this State." Duties of the Legislature as for the Convention LESLIE W. RUSSELL. at large, from an elaborate report, which I underAlbany, Aug. 2, 1867. stand has been recently made at the instance of the common council of New York city, in referWe concur as to the first and second propositions euce to the rights formerly vested in said city embraced in this report, but without indorsing all and the franchises which belong to her, properly the reasons stated therein. speaking. By a reference of this resolution to HOBART KRUM, the committee indicated by the gentleman from C. V. R. LUDIiNGTON. New York [Mr. Hutclitis], it will practically Mr. LUDINGTON-Not being present this become a nullity; if passed, the clerk of the cornmorning at the meeting of the committee, I had mon council, pursuant to its teires, will be renot the opportunity of signing the minority report, quested to furnish the information. As my object in which I most heartily concur. I desire leave was to procure the intormation, I submit the to sign it now. proper course would be to pass the resolution. The PRESIDENT pro tem.-The Chair is of Then the clerk will make a return, and it will opinion that the gentleman hlas that leave without properly come before the committee indicated by requesting it at the hands of the Convention. the gentleman from New York [Mr. llitchlitis]. [Mr. Ludington then signed the report as above.] Mr. HUTCHINS-If the gentleman will modily Mr. VEEDER-On behalf of the majority o his resolution requesting the clerk of' the common the Committee on Bankiing, Currency and Insur- council to forward to this Conventioi a report ance, I beg leave to submit the following further made by individuals, naming them, I should have report: no objection to vote for it; but that resolution assumes certain facets which may or may not The undersigned, members of the Committee exist. It assumes that certain franchises. rights on Currency, Banking and Insurance, dissent from and privileges, ]have been taken away from the so much of the joint report of said committees as city of New York, and the Convention, by passing relates to section six of said report, and respect- it, may pass upon that question. If tile gentlefully report the following section as section six. man merely wants a report here and offers a resoSECTION 6. "The stockholders in every corpor- tion calling for that report. I shall most cheerfully ation and joint stock association for banking pur- vote for it, but I thiik tlie present resolution conposes, issuing bank notes or any kind of paper templates a little more than calling for information. credits to circulate as money, shall be individually i Mr. 1IlTCHMAN-I- have no objection that the liable to the amount of their respective share or. resolution of my friend should be modified in that 672 way, but to say that this Convention is called upon sylvania, the proportion of work already done, to pass upon certain questions of which we have and the probable expense, in addition to the no knowledge, is to say, what in my judgment, amount already appropriated, of completing said is wrong; that the city of New York has not extension. been deprived of her rights, and has not been de- The question was then put on the resolution of prived of powers and duties and privileges which Mr. Prindle, and it was declared adopted. belong to her people to exercise, is to say what Mr. BARKE R-I offer the following resolution: is untrue. This Convention and the gentleman The SECRETARY proceeded to read the resofrom New York [Mr. Hutchins], knows very lution, as follows: well- Resolved, That the several standing committees The PRESIDENT pro tem.-The Chair is of appointed by this Convention be requested to make opinion the gentleman is out of order. their final reports on or before the 9th inst. Mr. HITCHMAN - I am simply replying to The question was then put on the resolution of the remarks of the gentleman from New York Mr. Barker, and it was declared adopted. [Mr. Hutchins]. Mr. LUDINGTON-I offer the following preThe PRESIDENT pro ten.- The Chair did not amble and resolution: understand the gentleman from New York [Mr. The SECRETARY proceeded to read the resoHutchins] to make any such assertions. lution, as follows: Mr. GERRY-I think the gentleman from WHEREAS, Schemes and devices for selling propNew York [Mr. Hutchins], who has opposed my erty and raising money through the sale of resolution, is in error in relation to its terms. It tickets or chances in what is commonly called certainly was not my object, in framing its lan- " gift enterprises " have become common in our -guage, to commit this Convention to any state- State, and of alarming interest to the people, and ment whatever. I endeavored to make it which, while they lack the odium and legal disaas specific as possible, in order to inform bility attaching to offenses known under the laws the officer to whom, by its terms. it is to be sent, against gaming and lotteries, are nevertheless of the information we require, and I endeavored equally fruitfll of evil and dangerous to public to comply with the language of tihe resolution as morals; and near as I could, which was offered by one of the WHEREAS, Such schemes and devices as conmembers of the common council, pursuant to ducted are ofdoubtfullegislative control; therefore which the committee in question was appointed. Resolved, That the Committee on the Powers That committee was appointed some time since; and Duties of the Legislature be requested to rethey were desired and requested to procure all the port a Constitutional provision by which such -information in their power, and, as I am informeed practices may be prohibited by law. they have collected a mass of material which will The question was then put on the resolution of threw considerable light upon the labors of this Mr. Ludington, and it was declared adopted. Convention when they come to discuss in Corn- Mr. STRATTON- I call for the consideration mittee of the Whole the report of the Committee of the resolution offered by me yesterday. on Cities hereafter to be presented. I think if The SECRETARY proceeded to read the resolu-the resolution be read again, as I ask that it may tion as follows: be for the information of the Convention, it will be Resolved, That the commissioners of metropolifound that there is nothing whatever contained tan police of the city of New York, be requested in its language or terms either committing this to report to this Convention, as soon as practicaConvention to the subject of the information ble, the number of men detailed from the metrorequested, or desiring anything more than specific politan police force as attendants upon each of information on the subject that has been brought the police courts, the courts of general and special up before the common council in question. I sub- sessions, and any other courts in the city of New mit. therefore, with gret confidence that the York, during the year 1866, designating the name resolution is perfectly proper, both in language of each of said courts, and the amounts paid for and tenor, and I ask that it be passed. such attendance upon each of said courts respectMr. HUTCHINS- I move to amend the resolu- ively; and also whether the amounts so paid will tion by inserting after the word "franchises," "if be increased or diminished for the year 1867, and any," and I withdraw the original motion to refer. i' so, how much for each of said courts. Mr. GERRY - I have no objection to accept- The question was then put on the resolution of ing the amendment, although I want it distinctly Mr. Stratton, and it was declared adopted. -understood that I do not regard it as at all neces- Mr. CLINTON - I offer the following resolution sary. It is a somewhat novel principle that the and ask that it be laid on the table: city of New York has not some rights. The SECRETARY proceeded to read the resoluThe question was then put on the resolution as tion as follows: amended, and it was declared adopted. Resolved, That in the opinion of this Convention, Mr. PRINDLE-I desire to call up the resolu- it is the duty of the United States of America to tion offered by me yesterday in regard to the ex- refund the moneys and assume the debts expended -tension of the Chenango canal. and incurred by the loyal States in aiding Congress The SECRETARY proceeded to read the reso- to raise and support for "the common defense" -lution, as follows: during the late rebellion, those armies which, with Resolved, That the State Engineer and Surveyor the blessing of Almighty God, preserved the be requested to furnish information to the Con- " more perfect Union," and secured; the blessings vention of the state of the work on the extension of liberty to ourselves and our posterity." of the Chenango canal to the State line of Penn- Resolved, That a copy of this resolution, suthen 673 ticated by the Secretary, be transmitted to each Senator and Representative of this State in the Congress of the United States. Laid on the table. Mr. GRAVES-I offer the followingresolution: The SECRETARY proceeded to read the resolution, as follows: Resolved, That the Committee on the Judiciary be requested to examine and report to this Convention an amendment to the present mode of making up the calendar and trial of causes at the circuit courts, so that the parties whose names are at or near the foot of the calendar shall not be compelled to remain at the circuit with their witnesses and counsel until all the preceding causes on the calendar are tried or disposed of, to the great injury and expense of the parties whose trial is necessarily delayed by the present system. The question was then put on the resolution, and it was declared lost. Mr. HUTCHINS-I call for the consideration of the resolution offered by me yesterday, calling upon the counsel of the corporation of the city of New York for certain information. The SECRETARY proceeded to read as follows: Resolved, That the counsel to the corporation of the city of New York be requested to furnish to this Convention the following information, viz.: 1. The number of suits or actions at law now pending against said city. 2. The number of unpaid judgments now standing on record against said city, and the total amount thereof. Mr. WEED-I notice, in the wording of the resolution, the gentleman has, by mistake I suppose, omitted to insert the words " if any" in the second separate proposition. I, therefore, move that it be so amended so that it will read ' the number of suits or actions of law, if any." Mr. HUTCIINS-I accept the amendment. The question was then put on the resolution, and it was declared adopted. Mr. ANDREWS- I desire to call up the resolution of the gentleman from Richmoud [Mr. W. Brooks] in reference to the adjournm eat of th1 Convention on the 9th of September. The SECRETARY proceeded to read th resolu. tion, as follows: Resolved, Tlat this Convention will adjourn ons die at 12 o'clock, meridian, on Monday, Septeuaber 9, 1867. Mr. ANDREWS —I desire simply to say that I am in favor of the passage of that resolutions, l is not certain, perhaps, that the deliberataions o this Convention can be closed by that day, #ad that question at all times will be within the watrol of the Convention, and I think the passing of any resolution looking to a definite time for the adjournment of this body would at least tend to the facilitation of the business of the body. Mr. GREELEY-I move the resolution be amended so as to make the day of adjournment, Tuesday, the 10th of September, as we -wrl have nobody here after Saturday if we pass this resolution as it stands. Mr. E. BROOK --- I accept the amenmen t, or I will be willing tp make it the prev.iot satwurdy,.- wi lacccpt the ameApdnent. 85 Mr. W. C. BROWN-I move that it be made the previous Saturday the 7th of September, at 7 o'clock P. M. Mr. LUDINGTON- I move to amend the amendment of the gentleman from St. Lawrenee by inserting "or as soon thereafter as this Cotvention shall have completed its labors." The motion was subsequently withdrawn. The question recurred on the amendment of the gentleman from St. Lawrence [Mr. W. C. Browa] It was put and declared lost. The question then recuired on the original resolution as amended with the consent of the mover. Mr. HAMMOND- I move that the resolution be amended so as to make the day of adjournment the first of October. Mr. L. W. RUSSELL- I move the whole subject be laid on the table. The question was put on the motion to lay the resolution on the table, and was declared lost, on a division, by a vote of 48 to 57. The question was then put on the motion to amend by inserting the "first day of October," and it was declared lost. Mr. VAN CAMPEN -I move to amend so as to make the day of adjournment the 20th of September. The question was put on the motion of Mr. Van Campen and declared lost. Mr. SHERMAN-I move to strike out the "ninth of September," and insert '+ when the Convention shall complete its business." Mr. WEED - It seems to me, Mr. President, that it is impossible for any member on the floor of this Convention to fix any day when this Convention shall adjourn. It is impossible for any member to tell anything about when we may be able to adjourn. We may, and I trust we will, get through with the business that called us here by the first day of September. It is possible we will be here until the tenth. It seems to me to be unwise, at this time, to try to fix an arbitrary day that we know, and every member must know, must succumb ito the business before this Conventiop-,mlust bo changed to agree with the action of this Conqentfum. If we are ready on the ninth we a. adjiourn without this resolution. If we awe not realy the adjournment will be postponed. For that reasmon Mr. President, I move that this subject do lay oni the table until the business of.thbi Convettion is so far advanced that we may with some degree of certainty determine the day on which we will adjourn. The PRESIDENT pro et.. —Does the Chair understand the/gentlemnn as making that molioaa Mr. WEED -I make that motion. Mr.. BROOKS —I ask my friend to wih. draw that motion for a moment. Mr WEED -If the gentleman will renew It. Mr. E. BROOKS -I cannot renew it; anybody else will have the opportunityand they can rene4.the motion. I wish to make one remark. Mr. WEED — For the purpose of allowing thX gentiemna who introduced the resolution tA answer any remark i may ihar made, I with ww the aotioa for the present. Mr.. BROOKS- I introduced this resolution in good faith with referee to 4he r ummaiar 674 action, as I regarded it, of the Convention on the day previous, in limiting discussion on important questions to some twenty minutes or five minutes, and the adoption of the previous question. It was not my intention to call up the resolution to-day, but next week. But as the resolution has been taken from me by the gentleman from Onondaga [Mr. Andrews], I am very willing to vote for it to-day, and will work up to the time named in the resolution. Mr. WEED-I now renew my motion. The question was then put on the motion of Mr. Weed, and on a division it was declared lost, by a vote of 53 to 54. Mr. GREELEY-I move the previous question. The PRESIDENT pro tern.-The question is, shall the main question be now put? The question was then put ou the motion for the previous question, and it was declared carried. The question was then put on the amendment of Mr. Sherman, and it was declared lost, on a division, by a vote of 40 to 49. Mr. COOKE called for the ayes and noes on the original resolution. A sufficient number seconding the call, the ayes and noes were ordered. Mr. BICKFORD - Is it now in order to move that this be postponed? The PRESIDENT pro tem. —The Chair is of the opinion that nothing is now in order but the previous question, as that has been ordered. The.question is on the proposition of the gentleman from Richmond [Mr. Brooks], as amended by the gentleman from Westchester [Mr. Greeley]. Upon that, the ayes and noes have been asked. Mr. SEYMOUR - I inquire of the Chair -whether it is in order to lay this question on the table? The PRESIDENT pro tem. -The Chair is of the opinion that it is not in order, the previous question having been moved and the ayes and noes ordered. The SECRETARY proceeded to call the roll. On Mr. Ketcham's name being calledMr. KETCHAM-I wish to be excused from voting. It is utterly impossible for me to say now whether or not I can get through with my duties by the first of September. If we can get through by that time I am willing to adjourn; but I do not want to adjourn and leave the business half done. The question was then put on excusing Mr. Ketcham, and it was declared lost. He thereupon voted "No." The SECRETARY proceeded with the roll, and the question was declared lost by the following vote: Ayes —Messrs. A. F. Allen, C. L. Allen, N. M. Allen, Andrews, Armstrong, Baker, Barker, Beadle, Bell, Bowen, E. Brooks, E. P. Brooks, W. C. Brown, Carpenter, Champlain, Chosebro, Church, Clark, Cochran, Colahan, Conger, Cooke, C. C. Dwight, T. W. Dwight, Eddy, Endress, Evarts, Flagler, Frank, Fuller, Gould, Grant, Greeley, Hitchcock, Hitchman, Houston, Hutch. ins, Kernan, Kinney, Lapham, Larremore, A. Lawrence, M. H. Lawrence, Lee, Loew, Ludington, McDonald, Merrill, Merritt, Merwin, Nelson, Opdyke, A J. Parker, Prindle, Prosser, Rathbun, Rolfe, Root, Rumsey, Schell, Seavtf, Silveste'ry Sheldon, Stratton, S. Townsend, Van Cott, Veedei, Wickham, Williams-69. Noes-Messrs. Alvord, Archer, Axtell., Ballard, Barnard, Beckwith, Bergen, Bickford, E. A. Brown, Case, Clinton, Comstock, Corbett, Daly, Duganne, Ferry, Fowler,, Fullerton, Garvin, Gerry, Graves, Gross, Hadley, Hale, Hammond, Hardenburgh, Harris, Hatch, Huntington I, Ketcham, Krum, Landon, Livingston, Magee, Masten, Mattice, More, C. E. Parker, Potter, ReyInolds, Rogers, L. W. Russell. Schoonmaker, Seymour, Sherman, Smith Spencer, M. I. Townsend, Van Campen, Wakeman, Wales, Young-5 1. Mr. HALE -I move to reconsider the vote just had. The motion war laid. on the table under the rule. Mr. MCDONALD-At the request of several members I now ask to have taken from the table the resolution offered by me in regard to going into Committee of the Whole one hour after we convene. The question was put on taking the resolution from the table, and was declared carried. The SECRETARY proceeded to read the reso. lution, as follows: This Convention will o each day into Committee of the Whole on any general or speci5l order pending, one hour after it convenes, -unless that order of business is reached before that time.71 Mr. DUGANNE -I wish to withdraw the amendment offered by me to that resolution. Mr. GREELEY -I would suggest it should be amended so as to read, 11 that in cases the business before the House is the action on a question already perfected in Committee of the Whole." It seems to me the resolution is defective. Mr. McDONALD -That is what I understand the resolution provides; it provides for going into Committee of, the Whole one hour after we meet unless the business is sooner reached. Mr. CHESEBRO - That does not cover the ground as I understand it. As I understand the suggestion of the gentleman from Westchesterand I regard it as important -we shall go into Committee of the Whole upon any subject which is then before the committee within one hour. But if there is any special order before the committee at that time that the Convention then have the matter in their own control. Mr. McDONALD - The proposition of the amendment of the gentleman from Westchester as I understand it is that we shall go into Committee of the 'Whole within one hour after we meet unless the Convention is then engaged in considering some article of the Constitution perfected by the committee or Convention. Mr. GREELEY - My proposition is to, proceed to the special or standing order of that hour. Mr. McDONALD -If there is any general or special order before the Convention we do not go into Committee of the Whole. Mr. KETCHAM - I ipove that the matter for the present lay on the table. The question was put on the motion of Mr. Ketcham, and - declared carried. Mr- HADLEY -With th A' ViAW AP. falafln& fbn Rolfe, Root, Rumsey, Schell, Seavtr, Silvester, Sheldon, Stratton, S. Townsend, Van Cott, Veeder, Wickham, Williams-69. Noes-Messrs. Alvord, Archer, Axtell, Ballard, Barnard, Beckwith, Bergen, Bickford, E. A. Brown, Case, Clinton, Comstock, Corbett, Daly, Duganne, Ferry, Fowler,, Fullerton, Garvin, Gerry, Graves, 'Gross, Hadley, Hale, Hammond, Hardenburgh, Harris, Hatch, Huntington, Ketcham, Krum, Landon, Livingston, Magee, Masten, Mattice, More, C. E. Parker, Potter, Reynolds, Rogers, L. W. Russell. Schoonmaker, Seymour, Sherman, Smith, Spencer, M. I. Townsend, Van Campen, Wakeman, Wales, Young-5 1. Mr. HALE -I move to reconsider the vote just had. The motion was laid on the table under the rule. Mr. McDONALD-At the request of several members I now ask to have taken from the table the resolution offered by me in regard to going into Committee of the Whole one hour after we convene. The question was put on taking the resolution from the table, and was declared carried. The SECRETARY proceeded to read the resolution, as follows: "This Convention will go each day into Committee of the Whole on any general or special order pending, one hour after it convenes, unless that order of business is reached before that time." Mr. DUGANNE -I wish to withdraw the amendment offered by me to that resolution. Mr. GREELEY- I would suggest it should be amended so as to read, " that in cases the business before the House is the action on a question already perfected in Committee of the Whole." It seems to me the resolution is defective. Mr. McDONALD -That is what I understand the resolution provides; it provides for going into Committee of the Whole one hour after we meet unless the business is sooner reached. Mr. CHESEBRO -That does not cover the ground as I understand it. As I understand the suggestion of the gentleman from Westchesterand I regard it as important -we shall go into Committee of the Whole upon any subject which is then before the committee within one hour. But if there is any special order before the committee at that time that the Convention then have the matter in their own control. Mr. McDONALD —The proposition of the amendment of the gentleman from Westchester as I understand it is that we shall go into Committee of the Whole within one hour after we meet unless the Convention is then engaged in considering some article of the Constitution perfected by the committee or Convention. Mr. GREELEY - My proposition is to proceed to the special or standing order of that hour. Mr. McDONALD -If there is any general or special order before the Convention we do not go into Committee of the Whole. Mr. KETCHAM — I irove that the matter for the present lay on the table. The question was put on the motion of Mr. Ketcham, and declared carried. Mr. HADLEY —With the view of testing the 675 sense of this Convention as to the propriety of necessary. I am very confident that a great double or single senate districts, I offer the fol- many members of this Convention have not decilowing resolution: ded fully as to the manner this thing shall be The SECRETARY proceeded to read the reso- arranged. I know my first impression would be lution, as follows: in favor of large districts. I know there are Resolved, That the Committee of the Whole be inconveniences and difficulties, but I do not know discharged from the consideration of the report of the extent of those inconveniences or difficulties. the committee ("on the Legislature, etc.," and that I desire that the members of the Convention shall the same be re-committed to said committee, with show us, in the course of the discussion, in what instructiore to so amend said report as to provide particular the large districts are to be considered for thirty-three single senate districts, and that said objectionable. Again, the question of single discommittee report such districts. tricts will necessarily be involved ia this discusMr. SPENCER-I offer the following resolution sion, and so would the "double district," as it as a substitute for the resolution of the gentleman might be called. Now, I desire to hear a full and from Seneca [Mr. Hadley]. fair discussion of this question in connection with The SECRETARY proceeded to read the reso- the report of that committee. I believe it is best, lution as follows: for I do not believe that any member of the ConResolved, That the Committee of the Whole be. vention is now ready to take any one of these discharged for the present from the further con- propositions by itself and determine definitely and sideration of section second of the report properly how it shall be disposed of. I rose with of the Committee on the organization of a view to make a motion that the whole subject the Legislature, and that the same be referred be referred to the Committee of tile Whole, and back to said last-named Committee, with instruc- be considered in Committee of the Whole. It tions to report a section with provisions in sub- seems to me it is tile only place in which auystance that the Senate shall consist of Senators thing can be done properly and the entire thing chosen irom the same number of senatorial dis- be discussed together. Members of the Convention tricts, to be numbered from one to thirty-six in- will see that all these questions are intermixed and elusive, for the term of four years, se that the intermingled in such a manner that they ougl,t terms of one-fourth of said Senators shall expire to be discussed in connection. Youl take the city in each year. The whole number of Senators of New York; the proposition is to give the city shall be chosen at the election first held under this five or six Senators; I believe there is a propositiou Constitution, and shall be divided into four class- to make an addition so as to entitle it to tix es of one-fourth of said Senators in each class, Now, that would seem to dispose of all difficuLtt the terms of whose office shall be respectively in regard to the city of New York. In regard to one, two, three and four years, and which classes Kings county in the second district, the gentle shall be so arranged that Senators of each class man from Westchester [Mr. Greeley] proposes to shall be distributed equally as nearly as may be strike out Westchester; that would remove al. through the State; and also to provide either for the difficulty there by reducing that district. But division of the State into senatorial districts, or for when all difficulties with regard to cities are resuch division by the Legislature as to said Com- moved, then comes the other question in regard mittee shall seem proper. to the districting of the State upon the system of Mr. SPENCER-My object in offering this sub- four or eight districts, and I want to hear that stitute was to test, not only the question of single question discussed before it is abandoned. My senatorial districts, but also the term of office, and recollections of the condition of things from 1821 the question can be taken separately upon these to 1846 were that the Senate was then regarded two propositions. The resolution was drawn as entirely different from what it has been under with the view of being offered in Committee of the single district system. It has lost, in a great the Whole, and contains some words which are measure, its character as a higher and more connot perhaps proper to be offered here. Gentle- servative body than the Assembly, mainly upon men will understand the object of the proposition. the ground that it is brought so completely in Mr. BARKER —I wish the gentleman from contact with the assembly districts that it is diffiSteuben [Mr. Spencer] would withdraw his sub- cult to mark the line of distinction between Senastitute. The gentleman from Seneca [Mr. Hadley], tors and Assemblymen. And in order to as I understand it, has introduced his resolution have it a conservative body to check and for the purpose of testing the sense of this Con- control the hasty and inconsiderate legisvention, whether we will adhere to the single lation on the part of the Assembly, it is, in senate district or not, if it is decided that we shall, my judgment, highly necessary that we should then we shall go into detail. If it shall be decided resort to another rule than that of the single disthat we abandon it then we may arrange the large trict. How far we should go I do not say, but I districts. If we get at the principle on which we desire to hear this discussed. I know there are are to elect, the Senate is established, the balance a large number of members in this Convention is detail. I apprehend it will facilitate our delib- who desire to hear arguments which may be erations very much to have this question settled. offered, pro and con, on these subjects, in order Mr. RATHBUN - I do not believe it is worth to make up their minds. I submit the motion I while to stop in the discussion of the report of arose to make, that this whole subject be referred that committee for the purpose of taking up to the Committee of the Whole. either of these propositions. I submit to the The PRESIDENT pro tern.- The Chair will gentlemen of the Convention that the discussion state that the refusal to entertain these proposiof these very questions, and all of them, is really tions must necessarily have that result; there 676 fore it is not necessary to make such a for to-morrow and Monday on the roumnd that I reference. must hold court on those two days, and I have no Mr. PRINDLE — I rise to suggest that I trust other justice to liold court for me, as I have made this matter will not be taken away at the present no arrangement for those days. time from the Committee of the Whole. I Mr. VAN CAMPEN - If it is in order I desire am aware we have already spent more time t6 ask how many are excused. in Committee of the Whole than we should The PRESIDENT pro tem.-The Chair underhave spent upon the report of the Com- stands from the Secretary, that seventeen have mittee on Suffrage. But it seems to me been excused by the action of this mornfing. there is danger of running to the opposite extreme. Mr. HATCH- I desire to asli to be excused. It seems to me we ought to hav.e the privilege of The PRESIDENT pro tem.-The Chair woumld deliberating upon this que.lion fully and fairly to inform the gentleman that there is still a proposia reasonable extent in Committee of the Whole. tion before the Convention, in the case of Mr I desire. tir one, to say something in Committei Loew, which has not heen acted upon. of tlhe Whole upon this subject. And I believe Mr. KINNEY-Will the Secretary give ut tthe there.are many other gentlemen liere who wish to number who have been excused before, and whose express their views, and give reasons for votes excuses still continue. which may be given, in Committee of the Whole 'The PRESIDENT pro tenm.-The Chair will when the whole subject is under consideration, endeavor to procure the information through the where we shall not be limited to such a narrow Secretary. compass as in the Convention. It certainly can- Mr. CLINTON-It may be proper for me to not do much harm to discuss this subject a little state that having been excused until Monday, I further, a day or two-one day at least, in Con- nevertheless will be here on Saturday. I find it mittee of tlhe Whole, where the speeches are con- is not necessary to be absent. flned to t-wnty minutes. Mr. H..LAWRENCE-If it is in order I Mr. CONMSTOCK-I move that the resolution would like to have the roll called, so as to know for the present lay on the table. how rnany will be present after deducting those Th'e question was put on the motion of Mr. who are excused. Comstock and declared carried. The question was put on the motion to call the Mr. ANDREWS — Before going into Commit- roll and declared lost, on a division; by a vote of tee of the Whole I desire to ask leave of absence 63 to 50. for myself ior to-morrow. I have an engagement The PREESlDENT pro tem.-The Chair will that i catnnot well disregard. 'answer with reference to the iast question asked There being no objection leave was granted. of tlle Secretary, that in addition to the seventeet 3Mr. E. BROROKS -I would like to aslt the I tentlemen who have been excused, three others same (or myself until Monday evening. I have been excused, making twenty in all. There blei:n no objection leave was granted. The questionT was put on excusing Mr. lteW Mir. VEXlI)IIR-L I desire to ask leave of nb- and it was declared carried. sence for. tyself from Saturday until Monday. I Mr. DUGANNE-I desire to ask of the Conam obliged to go to my court on Monday. vention permission to withdraw from tile 6ommitThere beiln no objection leave was granted. tee to which it has been referred, then m&morial Mr. HITcIIMAN- I ask leave of absence for containing the name of John A. King, for the reainyself for to-morrow and Monday. son I have just received a letter communicating Mr. GREELIIY-I object. We are in danger to me the fact that the promise has beeni made to of being left without a quorum. I object to any return that signature to the family bcaluse it was more leaves of absence being granted. the last signatutre which Mr. King made before The question was then put on granting Mr. his death. Hitchman leave of absence, and it was declared The PRESIDENT pro tem.-The Chair is of carried. the opinion at present that under the rule which Mr. FULLERTON - I ask leave of atbsence for has obtained in the legislative bodies in this State, myself. and I believe it is settled by enactment that no Mr. GREELEY- I object. such request can be granted by the Convention. Mr. BARKER -I ask the gentleman to state As at present advised the Chair m-ist rule, therehis reasons for asking leave of abselce. fore, that.the request cannot be granted. The PRESIDENT pro ten.- The Chair cannot Mr. DtTGAi NE —Can I refer the request, and compel the gentleman to give a rbason. upQn a full rleport of tfl comlmitteoe haVe th r6 -Mr. FULLERTON - I have important business port returned? which will occupy my time to-morrow 'and on r. WEED-Tf the PreSideit pro tern. would Monday at home. allowv m'e I would staet that there is n11 tatute The question was then put on granting Mr. Ful- that tan apply to this body on such a qutestion. lerton leave of absence and it was declared car-Our rules do not prevent the return of a paper or ribd..the Withdra8ing Of ppters from the filels of thb M fr. BERRGEN-I ask to be excused until Convention. t'lersday rhorning. My reason iS Bickness in ximy The PRE'SIDET Iro tein.-With the conient family. of tlie gentleman from New York [Mr. DIltantfe], Mr. GREELEY -I object. 'tie Chair will 7old the qiro0tion in abeyance. The question was then put on granting Mr. Ber. MI. HATCH-I desire tO be excusied until next gen leave of absence and it was dclared etarried. Turesday, for ther reaion of sickness in my family. 'r. LOEW- I ask leave of absen fbr: elf r tih" q^tlon *wa then put on granting Mr 677 Hatch leave of absence and was declared tion, giving or rather leaving power with the carried. people, where it belongs. The proposition (,f the The Convention then resolved itself into the Com- committee, as I have before said, is centralizingnlitceo l the Whole upon the report of the Com- this of minority representation is decentralizing mittee on the Legislature, its Organization, etc. political power. It is in harmony with the spirit Mr. ARCHEiR, of Wayne, in the chair. and substance of the Constitution of 1846, that The Chairman announced the pending question the only true depositary of power was in the to be on the amendment of the gentleman from people. I believe in the principle of sel'-governCortland [Mr. Ballard]. ment. I believe in the instinct of tile massesMr. IH.ATCH — ask whether this amendment the common understanding of the people when is a substitute for the section. fairly expressed to be the best governmental The CHAIRMXAN-The Chair understands the action. For these reasons I oppose the report proposition of tlie gentleman from Cortland [Mr. of the committee. aillard] is a subultitute for tile sections in the Mr. E. A. BROWN-It is not my purpose, Mr. report relating to tie districts in the State. Chairman, to make an elaborate arglument on this Mr. H1ATC-I-It is for thirty-two districts as question. As I understand the amendment proI understand it- posed by the honorable gentleman from Cortland Mr. A. B. BROWN -I believe, Mr. Chairman, [Mr. Ballard], it is to retain, by an article in the I liad tlhe floor last night- amended Constitution, the present number of The CHAIRMNIAN-Thle Chair recognized the tlirty-two Senators and the present districts as gentleman from Erie [Mr. Hatch] first, supposing now organized. In relation to tle number of Senthe gentleman wished merely to ask a question, ators, I desire to say, that, so tar as tile State at then it recognized tile gentleman from Lewis [Mr. large is concerned, in my judgmnent the present E. A. Brown], but ascertaining that the gentleman representation of Senators is not too large and is from Erie [Mr. Hatch] desires to address the corn- satisfactory except as to the city of New York and mittee, awards 1im the floor. the immediate vicinity, where the population Mr. HATCHL-I- desire to say, sir, that I increases faster tlhan it does ii other portions of approve of the amendment of the gentleman fiom the State. In order to preserve what I consider Cortlaind [Mr. Ballard]. It is to substitute the a proper representation in thle other parts of the old system of thirty-two districts for eight large State, Iam decidedly in favor of a small increase senatorial districts, as now proposed by thle Com- of Senators to keep up with that inerease of mittee on the Or0ganization of'theL.egislature. I fail population, so that there may not be the comto appreciate any of thle arguments that have been plaint which has been made upon this floor introduced here by the chairman of the Committee on the part of the great city of' New York, on tire Organization of tlie Legislature, in favor of that its great interests, its teeming and growchlangiug our present system. There lhas been no ing population, and its immense wealth, comiJlaint from tile people against tlie present and importance, are not sufficiently cared for, in system. They ask no clhange. I don't believe in the number of representatives In thle Serate trying experiments on making Constitutions. Let accorded to that locality. And, sir, I do not think well encugll alone, is an old proverb. The gentle- the addition of one Senator is enough to meet this man from Rensselaer [Mr. M. I. Townsend] ex- want; two or three at least should l1e provided pressed, in the main. my views so fully, and gave for, in my judgment. in addition to the present reasonrs against tlhe propositios which were number, to meet the just requirements of those before this conmmittepe,,that I will not attempt to great interests-that growinlr population and add to them, as I believe in letting well enough rapidly increasing business. Bllt, sir. thle proposialone, in lettirig a well tried system in the State tiour to change from tle single district system to a alone. I consider the tendency of this new system of eight districts, I decidedly oppose. It representative scheme, tlhe centralization of politi- is said that the larger the constituency the better cal power in parties, and that is as objectionable the representatives. I deny thrat tha:t proposition as a centralization of power in the State or nation. is proved, either by any sound argument or by any It is removing political power from the people. practical experience in this State. It is alleged The democratic theory of government is to keep that there is corruption in the legislative body. it near tlle people. I am opposed to all the propo- That, sir, is a charge very easily made, and if it sitions presented before thllis commtttee, except were true, I deny that the proposed change from the one amendment proposed by the gentleman single districts to large districts affords any sort from Cortland [Mr. Ballard]. I should add, low. of remedy..Now, sir, on the subjtct of purity ever, that tile proposition mnade by tme gentjeman of tie Senate, it has not happened, so far as I from Westchester [Mr. Greeley] can be shown to have heard, within the last twenty years, that be' a practical proppsition, embpdying the any two members or anyone member hns been principles of minority represqntation. I called.upon to resign his seat to avoid exprdsion can, say, sir, that proposition,will receivve,rpycor- for sorrtupt practices in the office of Senator. dial support. A plan that would secure repre. fTwo.shreh instances occurred under the old syssentatives in tlhe Legislature from n'ii itjesaaste.m, agd in two different districts in this Statewell as majorities is democratjc. -It serps to me,,le ayving bgeeln eclared by the Senate guilty ao Bsir, that those wlo believ.e in popular rprpe9ta- morala!d qffilial *miscondlct was not expelled by tion and popular suprelmacys~lipuld.sputain it If t a voe:pf the.enate, but was permitted to resign. is practical. It is antagqiticPto tle Oapgsjtion 9pw,,sir, -what is lit that keeps m en Ionest in of the l;arger dis.trct rerepmQpttr oni.,P.an, 9ial biodies?:When people select a man fbr 'bytte,piamttie. Itisia sspineig thegt *igc- ~ eaar, tey do not aelect a dishonest man 6t8 knowingly. If he is found to be dishonest in ple, and if you cannot rely upon their honesty office, this dishonesty is developed in consequence and integrity, upon their judgment and discernof the circumstances by which he is surrounded, ment, upon whom can you rely to maintain your the position he has held, and the temptation to system of representative government, and to supwhich he has been exposed, and the longer he ply your Senate with proper and competent and holds that position and the longer he is exposed to honest members? That rule, that necessity, apthose temptations the greater is the liability for plies to every nomination, to every office. But, corruption; and the oftener he is called home to sir, take the large district system for one moment; his constituents, to give account of his acts as a take this very district as proposed by your honorSenator, the more likely is he to retain the honesty able committee which includes St. Lawrence and he brought here into the Senate with him, Albany. They will send a few members from and to preserve the good character he has borne the county of Albany to the nominating convenamong his constituents, and by which he was en- tion, and those members can very easily find their abled to secure so honorable and important a posi- way into such a convention through the agency tion. Sir, there is no difficulty, in the hundred of the political machinery that exists here; they thousand and more people who comprise a single go there, a few of them, more likely to be politisenate district in designating sonse one man among cians by trade than those are who come together their number competent and able and honorable for the same purpose in the single districts (in enough to discharge the duties of the office of which a larger proportionate number of delegates Senator. It is not necessary to link the county of generally assemble), and I ask who selects the Albany, with its great interests and its connections candidate for Senator to be located in the county with the corporation of the Central railroad and of Albany? Why, the delegate or delegates that other corporations, with the great agricultural go from the county of Albany, St. Lawcounty, St. Lawrence, in order to find a man cor- rence does not interfere with it. There would petent to represent St. Lawrence in the Senate. not be one case in a thousand where the delegaIt is not necessary for the county of St. Lawrence, tion from one county would seek to interfere with or other agricultural districts of the State, to come the delegation from another, as to the man who to the county of Albany to get advice as to whom should represent that portion of the district, in they shall send to the Senate, nor is it necessary which a candidate was to be located. So that in to go from here to those districts to get advice. fact delegates from a particular county or locality No, sir, there is not a town in that county (St. would nominate their own man, and when thus Lawrence) but that is able to furnish a competent nominated he would be voted for by the electors man to represent that district-whether a single of the whole district, they knowing nothing and district, or a double district, or a quadruple district, caring nothing for him, except that he is a memin the State Senate. Ability, experience, compe- ber of the party, and for that reason must be tency, integrity, are not so scarce in this voted for. While on the other hand, in a small country that you need to link together six, district, under our single district system, the conor eight, or ten or twelve counties to find stituency knows the candidate. I vote for a man four men who are fit and competent to repre- because I know him, and take some interest in sent any locality in the Senate of the State. him, and, sir, it is desirable above all things, that But, sir, if the argument is sound, if the larger the greatest inducements should be held-out to the constituency the better the Senator you get intelligent and honest voters, and all voters, to get, why not say four districts instead of eight, come to the polls at the time of election. Pertwo instead of four, or the whole State in one sonal acquaintance with worthy candidates has district, because, sir, the larger you make the that tendency. I insist that the single district constituency the greater you make the Senator- system has worked well. Now, there is a class that is the argument. Sir, in a single Senate dis- of men in every community, in every county in trict the political conventions or nominating assem- the State. in every locality, in every district, blies are numerous compared with those which whose circumstances and whose business arrangemeet in large districts; they have a delegate, per- ments and employments are inconsistent with haps, from every town, several from every county; their taking a seat in the Senate; therefore large conventions are got together, representing they do not desire to become candidates for every portion of the district, and they consult the Senate; there is another class, perhaps not together and nominate a man for Senator. But it more ambitious, whose circumstances, business, is said that small politicians in a small way can and arrangements and position, are such that they secure nominations in a small district. Sir, that can become candidates and members of the Sent argument proves altogether too much. You are ate, and, sir, in this class, are men of intelligence necessarily compelled to rely upon the people for and practical ability, of good sense, of sound and your candidate for Senator, and if the people in mature judgment, who understand our institutu'particular neighborhoods associate together, a tions, and are fully competent to discharge, the bhundred thousand people and more in one district, duties of that high office; and, sir, the people will by their delegates and their representatives assem- always select the best men who are available for bled in convention, are not honest enough and con- those positions, and they would do so in small petent to furnish you a suitable man as a candidate districts as well as large, when they had the for Senator, I would like to know what has be- opportunity to select from those of whom they had come of our theory of representative government? some knowledge, and they would be more likely What is it good for? Upon whom do you rely? to vote for men who are incompetent, when they Upon whom do you fall back to regenerate your are called upon to vote for men of whom they Senate if it becomes corrupt? Why, it is the peo. know nothing. That is my judgment upon that 679 subject. And, sir, I think that the arguments that have been offered in support of this proposition, to go back to the system of large districts, is not supported by any practical experience, or by any sound reason. But the gentleman from Chautauqua [Mr. Barker] says we must have experience. True, we want experience in the Senate, and how do we get it? Well, the gentleman from Rensselaer [Mr. M. I. Townsend] says there is a class of men, graduates from the board of supervisors. Why, sir, that is not a bad school to teach men how to act as Senators. He says we have a class who graduate from the Assembly. Neither is that a bad school. Some men come into the Senate who have not had any experience, and before they passed through their two years, many of them have demonstrated themselves to be the ablest and best men in the Senate, and if they are found to be competent and faithful, in the discharge of their duties, they are again returned, and thus the next Senate has the benefit of their experience and their industry and their capacity. When is it that the Senator is most diligent in the discharge of his duties — when is it that he gives most attention to his business and seeks most faithfully to discharge those duties at all times? Why, sir, it is the very first session he attends; and if he becomes careless and worthless at any time, it is after he has filled that position for a season, got rid of his industrious habits, and become careless as to the interests of his constituents and of his own reputation; and his experience in that case is of no particular value. I say, if the Senator proves himself able, competent, efficient and trustworthy, he will be returned to the Senate, and the Chair must have in his mind's eye this moment, several in the present Senate, and those who have recently left it, who have been elected and re-elected, and the third time elected from these single districts. And we have those who have graduated from the Senate and been elected Governors of the State-two of themwho were elected to the Senate from single districts, and one of them has been promoted to a still higher sphere, to a seat in the Senate of the United States. Sir, if the people themselves are to be represented in their State Legislature, in their Senate, give them the opportunity, each one hundred thousand of them in their single districts, to designate a man to watch over their interests, and to take care of them, and they will sustain him if he deserves to be sustained-those who know him and feel a personal interest in him will support and encourage and sustain him, if he proves himself worthy of encouragement and support, but if he is found to be incompetent, unfaithful or dishonest, his immediate constituency, in the single district, will ascertain those facts and dispose of him as quietly as possible at the expiration of his term. I am decidedly in favor of retaining the single district system, and making such addition to the number of Senators as will be sufficient to accomplish the purposes specified at the commencement of my remarks. Now, the gentleman [Mr. Schoonmaker] said last evening, in reference to the representative population which was fixed under the Constitution of 1846, that it included aliens who were taxed; the exclusion being, as he represented, "aliens not taxed and persons of color not taxed;" and: that the punctuation of the article in question bore him out in that interpretation. On being asked if he noticed the comma after the words " excluding aliens," and before the words "and persons of color not taxed," he replied that there was no comma there. I do not propose to make an argument as to the interpretation of the Constitution of 1846 (Article 3, section 4) on that subject. It is too clear to be for one moment questioned. But I hold in my hand an official copy of that Constitution, published in 1849, by order of the Legislature, in which the comma does follow the words "excluding aliens," and precedes the words "aLid persons of color not taxed," which clearly proves the understanding of the Convention of 1846, and that no change was made or contemplated by the committee whose report is now under consideration, as to aliens being considered a part of the representative population of the State. Mr. BOWEN-As at present advised, I am strongly inclined to favor the report of the Standing Committee so far as it divides the State into eight Senate districts, and the considerations in favor of such division have been so fully and so ably set forth by the honorable gentleman from Chautauqua that I do not feel at liberty to occupy the time of the committee by adding anything, and shall content myself in attempting to vindicate the report by noticing some of the objections thereto urged upon this floor. It has been urged that a partisan political advantage was intended, and will result from an adoption of such division. The intention of the committee is, in reality, of no consequence, because, if their report, in the respect under consideration, be right, and will, in its operation, tend to advance the moral and material interests of the people, and the whole people of the State, then it should be adopted, whatever may have been the intentions of the individual members of the committee. But the members of that committee disclaim any such intention, and I am bound tobelieve them. Whether the adoption of the division recommended will result in an advantage to either political party I have not inquired, and shall not inquire. It is enough for me that the public interests will be thereby promoted, and if, in consequence thereof, the political party to which I am attached shall sink into a hopeless minority, let it sink. It may not be out of place here to suggest that the Constitution recommended by us, if adopted by the people, may, and probably will, outlive the rise and fall of more than one political party; and is it not a question worthy of consideration, whether, in consideration of the fact that the result of our labors is intended to outlive party issues, we are not lowering the position we occupy by allowing party politics, which are ephemeral and for the day, to enter into our deliberations? But it is objected that where the district is large, the elector, residing remote from the onie voted for, may not know the fitness and qualifications of the candidate -and on the other hafid that the candidate, if elected, may not be acquaintd. with the requirements of his remote constituency. But will not the same objection apply to the'eleetion of our Governors and State officers who hFist 6$0 be chosen by the State at large? And again, vote, and should be represented; and hence since the adoption of our present Constitution, is derived, perjlaps, the strongest arguhas it not been a growing evil that our Legislat- ment against separate.submission, as in case ors have legislated altogether too much in the the colored citizens should enter into the basis of interest of individuals, and for or against parti- representation, and the franchise, on a separate cular localities, and for corporations purely local, submission, should not be extended to them, a in disregard of and frequently at the expense of the' wrong would be perpetrated; while on the other interests of the people at large and will not the hand, if the basis excluded them, and the suffrage recommendation of the committee tend, at least in should be extended, an equal wrong will result. some degree, to mitigate the evil if such evil exists? It can scarcely happen that any provision, if reThe gentleman from Rensselaer has very elo- jected on separate submission, will not mar the quently and forcibly advocated the election of practical operation of the remainder. This, Senators by single districts and if I mistake not, however, is foreign to the question now the most weighty reason he gives therefor, is, under consideration. But with regard to that under the Constitution of 1821, a Senator was the details of the provision proposed, it should expelled for corruption, while under the present be borne in mind that it is but temporary in Constitution nothing of the kind has taken place. its operation; that after the enumeration proXMay not the reason be, that under the former vided for by the report, the Legislature can, and Constitution expulsion was the result of official as we are bound to believe, will correct any and corruption-while under the present Constitution all inequalities that may be then found to exiSt. that practice has, for some cause, fallen into dis- Like inequalities of representation always have use? But it-isobjected that the division of the existed, and to) some extent always must exist, State into districts as reported is unequal-that and we shall have performed our duty if we by the report some localities are favored at the make those inequalities as small as is practicable. expense of others. The members of the commit- But if the Committee of the Whole shall adopt tee, however, inform us that they have made the the single district system, then I shall be in favor -most fair and equitable division they were of giving more permanency to the Senate by reable to makle under the circumstances, and -I am taming the recommendation of the standing combound to believe them. If there are other mem- mittee of extending the term of officeof Senators bers who are able to suggest one -more.fair and to four years. equitable, let us by all-means adopt their sugges- Mr. BERGEN-I desire, sir, to occupy butvery tion. It is said that the division reported is little time in this debate, but I have lived under,based upon the census of 1865, and it is more 'both systems, the large district and the small disthan suggested that this census is unreliable. tridt system, and I have taken an active part in That census was taken by officers of the State nominations under both systems, and been a memcharged with that duty, and the committee her of senatorial conventions in a district in wlich.doubtless concluded that they were not at there was a large majority of the party of which liberty to condemn -it in the absence of:proofI Iwas a member, under both systems, and I have of its unreliability. The gentleman from seen somewhat of the workings and operations of Rilhmond [Mr. E. Brooks], complains that nominations, which generally in such districts lthe report does great injustice to his imme- amount to an election. In my judgment I have diate constituents; that by the report, the district seen nothing gained by resorting to the large disincluding the county of his residence, has not a trict in preference to the small district system..representation equal to other localities, and to Instead of a gain, there will be, in my judgmelt. a:remedy the inequality be proposeswhat? Why, to loss. We have had good men and men of ability:drop from his district the county of Westchester. under the single district system. Under that syswithout attaching it to 'any other district. Will tem, almost every voter has a personal acquaintthe-gentleman pardon me if 'Isuggest that he, as ance and knowledge of the candidates. Under a-member of this Convention, isbound dqually with 'the other system, with a district spread over'a,;the members of that committee to propose ithe large territory. the voters know nothing personally beet plan that can be devised, and that in amending of the candidates, but they are compelled ithe report of the committeehe should not haveleft:to take the judgment of others without exthatceounty without representation. Ifthe commit- ercising their own. There are evils, nlo doibt, -tee ad made their report as the amendment of the' in both, and there will be evils under any systetn,gentleman leaves it, they would have been dere- you can devise. Perfection is not to be expeeted, hot in duty, if not liable to censure. And is not and often in trying to avoid present evils we 'ate the fact that the gentleman's amendment, as he but flying to evils unknown. In 1846, the general must admit, leaves the report more objectionable complaint was against large districts, both for' the -thanefore, -an implied admission that, in the Senate and the Assembly. They lhad then:.espeot complained of, the report is the best that:experienced the evils of the large district System, -eouk -be proposed? The same distinguished gen- and to reform those evils they resorted 'to tlhe tleman fuirther objects that the committee, while single district system. That,was 'twenty'orie -adopting the voting population as the basis of rep- years ago, and many of the present generation snd resentation, haveyet included in that basis the col- many of the members of this body have never -ored-citizens, although as yet they are not, except experienced the evils of the large district system. ina.limited degree, allowedfto vote. Is not this They look back at those 'other days, and think -rSght? -As it now -appears, if the — result of our that by going back to the old system, they can labs iasstahroved, hen,,-at the fifst election un- avoid these present evils, but in 'my judgment -4er theaew Constitution they will be allowed to they are mistaken, aiid instead of -avoiding the Q1 present evils they will increase them. The only alteration from the present system which it seems to me proper to make, will be to extend the term of office of Senators to three or four years, and arrange them by classes so as to elect one class each year. That would avoid the necessity of changing the whole body at one period, and that could be engrafted upon the present system without any great difficulty. In a two years' term it would perhaps be better to elect one-half one year and tile other half the succeeding year. A change of that kind, I believe, would be beneficial. In relation t,, members of Assembly, as proposed by this report, I think it will be equilly inconvenient. Under the present system no clique of partisans can well control or command a county composed of several districts. This is a very ditficult matter. I have in my own experience seen it attempted, but it failed. Take for instance the county in which I reside, part agricultural and part commercial, part rural and part city; in the city it is very common for those who are desirous of office to be more critical and sharp than those in the country, and if you make a district of the whole county, tile rural districts might never get the representative they desired, for the reason that the governing power is in the city, and of course they would exercise that power in favor of their own friends; but under the single district system the rural districts would have a representation such as they wished. Under the other system a clique might nominate every member, and, where there was a strong party majority, would elect them. I' do not desire to put it in the power of any set of men to control the whole destiny of a county and the whole representation. I preler that the power should be divided lup among the people of the county and that the representatives should be brougllt as close to tile people as possible, and that the people should know their representatives and be able personally.to judge of their qualifications. of their honesty and ability, instead of being obliged to take the judgment and opinions of others on the subject. If there is a stream of corruption, Mr. Chairman, as has been said, in this country, it must be corrupt at its source. If the body of the people are corrupt their representatives are corrupt, and you must correct it at its source, and unless it is corrected there it will be impossible to prevent corruption. The source must be pure. It may be, sir, that the people are more corrupt than in.former days. That must be so if all we hear about corruption in our public men and in our legislative bodies be true. But, sir, I think that the adoption of this proposed system of large districts is not tle best remedy for the evil. Mr. SEYMOUR- Mr. Chairman, we have two propositions presented to us upon this very important question. One is that of the committee, recommending large districts for Senators; -and the otller, the amendment offered by the gentleman from Cortland [Mr. Ballard] recommending small districts. For myself I believe in the theory of a large district, and I shall be very happy to sustain the report of the committee, pro. vided those districts shall show, when theycore to be presented for the final action of the con'mittee, a fair and proper distribution of the powet 86 which is here to:be granted F the powesr reprosentation. I believe in the theory that the Jalrge district is the better one. I amnnot of those who think it is necessary to have small districts iin order that the candidate may be known to the constituency; I want a large district so that we may select men at large through an ex.tensive district, who by their experience and their character, after haying been tried by the people in important stations shall give us the assurance that they are the proper men to fill the hliggh position of Senator. We cannot ever expect to raise the character of our Senate to the position which it should he, unless -we have an opportunity of selecWing esull men. It has been said that-men elected from small districts, have gone from the Senate to the gubernatorial chair. That is so. But it should be remembered that when you select a Governor you select from tile whole range of this State, anld it is the pride of the citizens of this State to select a man who has claracter, experience and statesmanslhip, that shall enable lhim to do honor to tile station to which you ele t him. I want something of that high character, sir, to pertain to those men who are to be elected Senators of this State. We propose districts in which there will be an average of population of from four to five hundred thousand, a population as larg. as some of tliesmaller States of this Union, and we shall, I think, thus give a chance in the representatiot of so large a body for the selection of our best men. It is said that they will:not be known to the people, 'that a candidate may be presented in one port of:a large district who will be,an entire strrnger to the citizens of another part.,I donot believe that will be the result. Thetendency of tle proposition presented by thle committe is not o.produce such a result, but to constrain the party 'wlo presents the candidate, to name a man so well knowvn and experienced, so high in lcharacter tlht the people of tllat district -may know ieffl, kuow him as a public xman, know him-as a:man suitable and proper to fill this elevated position. It is claimed too, lthat if tlhe large district system is adopted, the whole mranagement of bringing forward tle candidate, will be.under the control of politicians,.professional:politicians, who have nuothing:to do but to -hold caucuses and select candidates for fthe rest Qf.the people. I have to say in;answer to tlat suggestion that if a political party permits tlat 'to be done they will jeopardlie tlheirlticket. I. believe there is too much goodsense in 'each of tlhe gPat parties in this State to permit such.a thing to be done. If you have a' large district, and a candidate is,selected by -oie party who is not known to the people, a eandi4ate inl whom they do not know that they can repoqe this high trust, it will be the object pf tleropposing party to select one who is known to.the peWople, and a:man who has commended, liiiself to the people by his public chlaracter..Hienee yeu will perceive,:ir. Clairwaan, lthat thore will:he the highest motive:prcsae}ed for both parties: select theirrbest men.,The etie!(as: ome, I thia, to do tlis, and I am very-g!l;tkwltteowrttqt have had the firmrNess lo ke: this atat. We 682 should endeavor to bring into the Senate of this State, this great commercial State, this State wielding such influence as it justly does in the Union, her best men. I do not wish to say anything by way of personal comparison between the Senates we have seen convened in former days under the Constitution of 1821, and those we have seen under the present Constitution. I should do those who have served under the present Constitution great injustice if I condemned them by wholesale. I have known many valuable men in the Senate under the present Constitution; gentlemen of the highest honor and integrity, and who would honor this State in any position to which they may be elected. I believe I speak the general sentiment of the people-I certainly do, so far as I have communed with them in reference to this matter which has been the subject of agitation, and consultation by the people preparatory to the meeting of this Convention-that they look back with pride to those days when the Senate was selected from large districts. That was a time when standing in the Senate chamber you could see men all around you, any one of whom you would be willing to see placed in the executive chair, or to represent this State in the Senate of the nation. I believe that we are better able now, from our increased population, our advancing intelligence and the greater experience of our public men after a lapse of over twenty years, to collect another such body, and to perpetuate it. I believe we can elect a body of whom we, without reference to party but as citizens of this great State, shall be proud. I desire to see the operations of the elective franchise in that direction; and I think if we adopt the large district system and shall so arrange our districts that there be no unfairness in their formation, we shall present on this subject a system to the people of this State which they will hail with joy. I must say, however, in passing, that I do not approve of the distribution of the power in the formation of districts in the manner the committee have presented them. I wish to say a few words upon that subject for the purpose of calling the attention of the gentlemen of the committee who reported this article and of this committee at large, to some faults which are apparent upon the face of this proposition. Sir, however meritorious the theory may be, unless you can present a proposition to the people of this State that shall be just and fair upon its face, I do not believe it will have the least chance of being adopted as a part of the Constitution. There is no subject upon which communities are so jealous as that of political power. There is no subject upon which communities, residing in the same State and having common interests, will more pertinaciously contend than the apparent unjust abstraction of political power from one locality and conferring it on another. I cannot agree with the gentleman from Rockland [Mr. Conger] in the 'oDinion that this distribution of power should conform to the material wealth of any part of the State. I prefer to fall back upon the good old doctrine-democratic and republican,too-the doctrine of representation of the people; and whether the district be large or limited in its resources I would measure its political strength by its population. Now, sir, a word with regard to this view of the case. It will be perceived, if we look at the plan selected by the committee as the basis of representation, that the average population for a district, taking the number of Senators as has been proposed, is 415,000, a goodly number, and one, as I before said, which any gentleman in this State, of the highest position and the greatest attainments might well feel proud to represent. But, sir, how is this power distributed by the proposition of the committee. The city of New York has assigned to it five Senators, and still has a large surplus of 55,000 and some hundreds unrepresented. That is the first district, showing a lack of representation, equal to nearly one-half of the ratio, for each Senator, that being, according to this plan, 103,000. Then we come to the second district; there we find a surplus of 48,669 not represented. Those two districts (and we may as well speak out in language so that all can understand) happen to constitute the democratic part of the State par excellence, and there is a loss of representation to that part of the State in these two districts of more than 103,000 the ratio for an entire Senator. How is it with the rest of the State? The third district has a representative population according to this programme of 381,856, which is over 33,000 Short of the ratio. The third district as it stands in this proposition will undoubtedly be a republican district. I have lived in that district as long as I have lived in the State I profess to know it. I have lived in it, under both the large and the small district system, and knowing as I do, its political character as it is generally shown in elections, I think there will undoubtedly be a republican majority in it. Now, sir, I do not, and would not, stand before this committee and ask that they should frame this proposition for a political purpose for the benefit of either party. But I do insist, in all fairness, that there should not be such a gross inequality between the representation of those districts that are democratic and those that are republican. We come then to the other districts, the fifth, sixth, seventh and eighth. In each of those districts there are large deficiencies in the representative population; in other words, the people m those districts, without having the ratio of 415,Q00 to a district, yet are allotted their full number of Senators, four to each district. If you omit the first and second districts and consider all the other districts proposed, with the exception of the fourth, they are republican, and they lack of population more than the ratio for one Senator. So that you have this most extraordinary state of things on the face of this proposition; that in the two southern districts, the first and second, which are democratic, there is a surplus population of more than 103,000, unrepresented, even allowing New York five Senators; yet in the northern and interior districts which are republican, you find they are fully represented, although they lack more than 103,000 of the ratio, for the full number of Senators apportioned to them; thus making this twofold inequality, working great injustice by refusing representation to a large surplus and by allowing it a large deficiency. Before I can support the system of large districts I desire to see this evident 683 injustice corrected, either by the Convention, or and would influence legislation precisely in proby the committee who have made this report. portion to its numbers and character. It is For this purpose I have an amendment which I equally plain, that a representative Legislature propose to introduce at the proper time, for the approximates the end for which it was designed, purpose of makingthis correction. This amend- just in proportion to the completeness and ment, I think, will be fair to all localities. I exactness with which it represents the whole peostrike out from the third district the county of pie-not the majority only, but all the people. No Orange, and add to the third district the coutny representative quorum can do this perfectly. But of Albany, which may be called, as it were, the the nearer it comes to such perfection, the more mother county of the third district, out of whose truly is it, in fact, a government of and for the territory many of the adjacent counties have been people. Now, under our present system, it is taken-counties which for a long period of years evident that this is done very imperfectly. Our have been associated with it. The amendment people are divided into parties. Men's honestconI intend to propose, reads as follows: victions lead them to prefer the principles of one Amend the second section by striking out party to another. It is found, practically, that in "Orange " from the counties.named in the third some parts of the State, one party is uniformly in.a district and "Albany" from the counties named large majority, and in other portions the other in the fourth district, by inserting "Albany" party. To specify; the city of New York, the among the counties named in the third district counties of Kings, Richmond, Westchester and and " Orange " among the counties named in the Rockland are always democratic. St. Lawrence, sixth district; by striking out "Otsego" from Washington, Jefferson, Chautauqua, and most the counties named in the sixth district and by of the counties in the northern and western inserting it among the counties named in the part of the State, are always republican. Repubfourth district, so that those parts of the second licans in the former counties, and democrats section hereby amended, shall read as follows:in the latter, are practically unrepresented. " The third district shall consist of the counties Republicans in Richmond and democrats in St. of Putnam, Rockland, Dutchess, Ulster, Greene, Lawrence have "no part or lot" in the legislaColumbia, Albany and Rensselaer. tion of this State. Members from their own "Thel sixth district shall consist of Orange, localities do not represent them politically. MemSchoharie, Delaware, Sullivan, Broome, Chenango, bers from other parts of the State, of similar Madison, Cortland, Tioga, Tompkins, Chemung political views, do not represent their local interand Schuyler. ests. They are in fact without representation; "The fourth district shall consist of the counties and the misfortune is not theirs only, but the of Schenectady, Fulton, Hamilton, Saratoga, State's, for she is thus deprived of the Washington, Warren, Essex, Clinton, Franklin, benefit of the presence in her councils of some of St. Lawrence and Otsego. " her best and wisest sons. If this evil could not Mr. HALE-Mr. Chairman, the amendment pro- be remedied, we should have to accept it as one posed by the gentleman from Westchester [Mr. of the unavoidable evils incident to our form of Greeley], and now pending, presents the question government. But if it can be remedied without of the representation of minorities, or more depriving any part of the people of any rights properly speaking, a'question which has recently they now possess, and without impairing the been attracting the attention of statesmen in principles of our government, and if thus a more representative governments throughout the world perfect representation of the views of all the peo-of personal representation. I should be very glad, pie can be brought about, we shall fail in our Mr. Chairman, if the rules of the Convention would duty if we neglect to attempt the cure. This permit a fuller discussion in this committee of this subject las been much discussed, especially in principle than can, by any possibility, be compressed England and on the continent. Mr. Thomas into twenty minutes. It is unfortunate, Ithink that, Hare, an English lawyer of eminence, whose by a rigid rule of this kind, in a body assembled to name is familiar as a reporter and elementary consider proposed changes in the fundamental author, to my professional brethren on this floor, law of the State-proposals, the decision of which has devised a system for a more perfect representaby us may affect the welfare of the State for a tion, which has received the approbation of many whole generation to come-we should have fet- of the wisest, most enlightened and liberal statestered ourselves by such a limitation. But such is men of England. The general features of his plan the rule, and it must be complied with. I will, I will briefly state. lie provides, first, for ascertherefore, endeavor to condense my argument as taining the whole number of votes cast at any much as I can, and in the brief space allotted to election for members of Parliament. This number, me present my views as fully as may be. What when ascertained, is. to be divided by 654- the is the theory of democratic republican govern- whole number of members of the House of Comment? It is that the people are the source of mons —and the quotient thus obtained, rejecting power. In a pure democracy, the people them- the fractional part, is the quota. Every candidate selves make their laws; and a republic is based in the kingdom receiving a number of votes upon a democracy, convenience only requiring equal to such quota is entitled to a seat; and that the people should, in making laws, act if then there is a deficiency, as of course through their agents and representatives, and not in there would be, the number-654-is made up person. It is obvious that in a democracy, from those receiving the greatest tumber of although the voice of the majority would prevail, votes less than the quota. It will be seen that yet the minority would be heard, would have a this system would lead to a waste of votes by,a vote upon the adoption or rejection of every law, popular candidate receiving many more votes than the number of the quota. To provide against less than the whole number to be elected this (and this is the peculiar feature of Mr. Hare's This system, too, originated in the old world. system), electors are permitted to vote by It has been advocated in England by Mr "voting papers," upon which the voter can put as Mill, an extreme liberal, and by,Earl Grey. an many names as he pleases in the order of hispref- extreme conservative. In this country it laes been erence, none of these voting papers to be can- advocated in the Senate of the United States, as celed for more than one name in the list, and that applicable to the election of Representatives in to be the highest uncanceled name on the list; Congress. It equalizes representation less perand when enough votes are appropriated to any one fectly than Mr. Hare'ssysten, but more simply and person to elect him, his name is to be canceled with less machinery and less novelty. I -am in on all the papers not so appropriated. Mr. favor of it in principle, though not even sure but its -Hare's book on this subject (which is soon details may be improved, as a step in the right to be published in this country) presents the direction, in the hope that it may ultimately lead details of his plan, which my time will not permit to the adoption of something better. By it, if the me to give here. But in regard to it, I will quote proposed amendment is adopted, any party able to that most eminent of writers on political economy poll one-third of the votes in any district, is sure and the principles of government, John Stuart of being able to electone Representative. To illhsMill. He speaks of it in his "Considerations in trate: suppose the wlhole number.of voters to be 15,a Representative Government" (page 153), "as a 000, whole number of votes will be 45,000; suppose scheme which has the almost unparalleled theminorityis 5,000 and they cumulateon one man; merit of carrying out a great principle of govern- lie will receive three times 5,000, equal to 15,000 ment, in manner approaching to ideal perfection votes, or one-third the whole number, and must be as regards the special object in view, while it one of the three Representatives. If the number attains incidentally several other ends of scarcely should be five from each district. then of course oneinferior importance." And again he says that fiftll could in the same way be sure of electing one "the more these works are studied, the stronger, I Representative. Now let us consider the objections venture to predict, will be the impression of the per- made to them, or to any system which represents feet feasibility of the scheme and its transcendent minorities. It is said to be a revolution of the advantages. Such and so numerous are these, principle that the majority shall rule. I der)y it. that, in my conviction, they place Mr. Hare's plan The people will rule under tils system, and the among the very greatest improvements yet made majority will prevail as truly as now. It will in the theory and practice of government." It only give localminorities a chance to be heard. It 'is my humble opinion, Mr. Chairman, that these is said thatit willdestroy ocal representation. -My encomiums are deserved —that Mr. Hare's system,in answer is that local representatio will be retained England, in its present form, and in the same form just as far as is desirable. Tle people of tlhe in our country, is feasible in practice. It was respective localities will tak care of tlat. But my intention to introduce an amendment applying the people, and not acres of land and piles of this system, in principle, to the election of the brick and mortar merely, will be represented. Assembly of this State. I have concluded not to But it is said by some that the people do not do so, however, for two reasons: first, I am con- demand any such change. Let us see. The vinced that neither the public mind nor the mem- people demand a. better class of legislators and hers of this Convention, have had sufficient oppor- better legislation. Unless the public ear is tunity to familiarize themselves with the novel fea- scandalously abused, our legislators, as a class, tures of tils system to become reconciled to it; and are neither honest nor wise. The people have secondly, because, with the little time that I have sent us here, among other things, to devise.some been able to bestow upon this subject, I have way of insuring wiser and more honest legislabeen, as yet, unable to find a mode for determining. tors and legislation. Any plan,which is likely to in case of surplus, which of the votes cast for the do this will meet their approval. This plan will successful candidate should be appropriated to do it. It will make the majority more,careful him. and upon which his name should be canceled whom they nominate.,l1ey will fear to and tile votes appropriated to the candidate named nominate rogues or fools for fear.of defeat secondly on the voting paper. This difficulty arises by a bolt from their own party. It is solely from the system of voting by secret ballot- said it will give the State the benefit of the a system the soundness of which I greatly doubt, services of men of talent and integrity,.now kept but which now probably stands too high in popu- out of putblic life by the accidept of their resilar favor to be disturbed. Mr. Hare's plan, how- dence in the district where they are in. a minority. ever, if put into operation, would more effectually And.we have evidence amlong ourselves that the accomplish the great end had in view, and insure people do demand a minority representltion. For the most perfect system of representation that the express purpose of enabling minorities to!o has yet been devised. But passing this as now represented, the Governor of this State, in his out of the question, let us come to the considera- message last winter, recolmmendea tile election of tion of the plan proposed by the gentleman from thirty-two delegates at large, each voter to vota Westchester [Mr. Greeley]. This amendment for only sixteen. And this suggestion lwas.ap embodies what is known as the cumulative proved by the people and adopted by the Legislasystem of voting, by which, each voter may ture. It was an imperfect and objieqtionablo cumulate his votes, giving a number of votes method ofattainingthe result, which a system like equal to the whole number to be elected, but the one now proposed.would have accomplished with the privilege of repeating (or cumulating) in a comparatively perfect and less objectionab)e -his vote upon one.man or any larger nunler apr. Itleft the whole matter vjrtayyin;the 685 hands of a nominating convention. But what Senate, but I am in fatot of th6 llan fqs ti6pos64 for was the result of this plan, imperfect as it was? electing members of Aseiftbly, whihl wilt thus It has given us some of the ablest and most use- be made What it Should be, tni popiilar bratichr of ful men on this floor, who could not otherwise the Legislature, repres6nting the differernt menhave obtained seats here. For several of the ablest bers' opinions more fully au'd ateuraftel9 than is oembers of the Judiciary Committee, on which possible in the Senate. I thinly, Mr. 'lhairman, it is my privilege to serve, we are indebted to 'that in this matter, as in all otllers, we Shlall look this system; and so to this provision, are we in- higher ana further, tlhan to consider tlIe effect of debted for the presence here of the learned chair- an action upon present parties. Parties are temman of the Committee on the Preamble and the Bill porary and their relative position uncertain and of Rights [Mr. Evarts]; the distinguished chair- fluctuating. Principles are eternal and unchangeman of the Committee on the Right of Suffrage, able. We who now consider ourselves as being who moved this amendment [Mr. Greeley]; the in sympathy with the majority of the people of able chairman of the Finance Committee [Mr. this State, may some time find ourselves in a feeble Church]; the honored chairman of the Committee and powerless minority. The Constitution which on Cities [Mr. Harris]; the eloquent and accom- we form, if accepted by the people, may stand fot plished chairman of the Committee on Education generations. Let us all endeavor so to construct [Mr. Curtis], and many others of the ablest it, that it will be just, fair and beneficent to all; members of this body, whom I might that majorities and minorities will have their just iame. Not one of those gentlemen could we powers and rights. Thus, and thus only, shall we have had to aid us in our important work had we be able to look back upon our labors here witl depended on the ordinary mode of electing repre- satisfaction, and to feel thus all our lives that we tentatives. 1 am aware that it is natural for those have tried to render good service to the bf us who live in counties where we are in the State and to the cause of representative governiajority. to think it is unimportant whether our ment. friends, who are not so fortunate, are represented. Mr. MERRITT - This subject wsi under cobThe complacent language of the minority re- sideration for a considerable time in the commitport that the force of the tyranny of majorities tee, and we came to the conclusion that it Was as not, in fact, much foundation with us, " was not a system appropriate to our condition at the a very natural expression of their feeling." present time. The problem propounded is, in And it is especially true, that some of our what manner the individuals constituting the enbrethren along the line of the Erie canal, tire community are to be represented, so that no considering the air in the vicinity of that charm- class or interest shall be ignored? Mr. Hare's ing stream as favorable to wisdom and integrity, theory may be practical and work well in choosand eminently conducive to the development and ing the popular branch of the legislative body in bapacity for leadership, are quite willing to get a monarchical government, but not in ours. It along without the aid of any republicans from proposes to do away with minorities, and if it New York or the other counties where demo- should work as contemplated, there really would crate prevail. But the people thought otherwise, be none. Its adoption, then, amuist be urged on and were determined to enable some people the ground that special industrial or other interbesides those of us believing we were in the ests cannot, under our present system, be fairly majority to aid in amending the Constitution. represented and considered. Is that true? I And is there any reason why men of that same believe the facts will warrant an entirely different class, as representatives of their fellow citizens, conclusion. So far as I have knowledge on the who agree with their politics, should not be subject, all respectful petitions and advocates Dllowed seats in the Legislature as well'as in Con- have been considered and listened to with pavention? Another objection made is, that this plan tience, and whenever the subject proved to be will tend to destroy and break up party organiza- of sufficient importance to interest any contions. I am not one of those, Mr. Chairman, who siderable number of persons in its favor, it consider the existence of parties as an unmixed was sure to have advocates in the Legislaivil. I think we must and should have parties ture, and generally in larger proportion than in a free government, and the plan proposed will it would be likely to receive under the new not break up or destroy parties. It will tend to system, or than it would be entitled to in propordo away with party tyranny. It will liberate the tion to numbers. In this country parties are 'Voter from the dominion of party, and not leave generally formed on great national questions, hiim a mere machine to record the edicts of a cau- whose controlling influence is felt, not only in the eus or convention. And this I consider not as an selection of federal officers but extends to State, *nd to be feared, but "a consummation devoutly county and town officials, and constitutes the rab to be9 wished." We have been spending a good lying cry in every closely contested election. The deal of time in extending the suffrage. This State government elected on national issues by ifmendment will give it some practical value. the majority party of the State, has always been still, Mr. Chairman, this is an experiment. I compelled by public opinion to'bear the responsi. ioubt whether it is wise to try it in both houses bilities, which have thus been sought and assumed, of' tih6 Legislature. I think there should be a of caring for and guarding all tlIe varied and inrdistihctiotl made between Senate and Assenbly. portant interests of the 3tte. While We have i Thire *marks made by the gentleman from Ohit- great diversitity of interests, those of a local char tauqtbu, upon this head met my full corrcurreice. eCter have, a a general rule, beUi Well 1 epir.1 i, tlibe'olre, not "ure that it would be wise to eend in our legislative bdies. I Will ni^ 8 tdopt tte atireudmteut o far as it relate tb 'fthe ti teyihavb beei ja a wll reprtited it 'h 686 might have been; but the fault, if any there be, to take into account and consider the special lies with the people themselves. Our present political majorities. Since the discussion was had system, which is adopted in all of the States of yesterday, I have taken pains to look over the the Union and indeed in all republican govern- election returns, in that regard, and I desire to ments, contemplates minorities; and the larger present to this committee, if they will have pasuch minorities are, the greater will be their tience, some of the results of that investigation. restraining influence on the majorities. It is this It has been claimed here in the discussion of the that holds the ruling power to its accountability. report of the Committee on the Right of Suffrage, where parties are nearly equally divided, the that the true source of government rests in the public good must be the ostensible object sought electoral body; that those who have a right by each. Under such a system as ours, therefore, to cast a vote are to cast such votes for themthe great majority of the people and all the varied selves; that the majority of the political power interests of the State will be represented and pro- shall govern by the expression of that body. moted. Mr. Hare has accepted ours as the true We have not yet claimed that any man basis of popular government in contradistinction has a right to represent any other man but himto governments of the aristocratic or monarchical self; and that nothing should be taken into form, but, opposes our theory of elections on the account as the measure of political power but ground that majorities are capable of greater op- that. I would not say that this rule should be pression to minorities;'than can be apprehended applied to the question of apportionment, but as from the domination of a single superior." Our regards the estimated strength of parties it is present system insures some policy in government. proper to be taken into account. I will premise The one proposed, confusion in the elections and by saying that the election of 1866 was as closely in the legislative body. The very thing he pro- contested as any we have ever had in this State, poses to do away with is essential to us in our and equally so with the election of 1864, although present condition, and will, I have no doubt, be there were not quite as many votes polled as in that required for a long time to come. Mr. Harequotes year. In 1866 there were 718,841 votes in the with approval Mr. Burke's statement, who says, State of New York, and in the city of New York, "that neither England nor France without infinite which we have constituted one district, there detriment to them, as well in the event as in the were polled that year 114,169 votes. Divide that experiment, could be brought into a republican by the number of Senators which we propose, form; but that everything republican which can and which will give as the senatorial representabe introduced with safety into either of them tion quota 21,783 votes, or 87,132 as the quota for must be built upon a monarchy —built upon a senatorial district having four Senators. There a real not a nominal monarchy as its essential were cast last year, in the first district, only an basis. In monarchical governments all institutions, excess over the proportion of five Senators, of either aristocratic or democratic, must originate 5,254 votes. The second district, about which from the Crown and in all their proceedings must there has been so much said relative to excesrefer to it; and it is by that mainspring alone sive population, there was not cast a vote those republican parts must be set in motion, and equal to its proportion. There was a deficiency also from thence derive their whole legal effect (as of 2,962 votes. The third district did not amongst us they actually do) "or the whole will cast its full proportion, for there was a deficiency fall into confusion." It is from this stand-point of 6,032 votes. In the fourth district there was that all reforms in the Old World have thus far an excess of 768 votes. In the fifth district been inaugurated and conducted. Not so, how- there was an excess of 5,422. In the sixth 7,458, ever, in our Republic. Here all power emanates polling at that election 94,588 as against 87,132, from the people, to be prescribed and enforced in which should be her proportion of the electoral accordance with their will, under such reasonable vote. The seventh district had a deficiency of forms and regulations as the common judgment 6,575, and the eighth had a deficiency of 3,599. and experience shall declare to be adapted to the Now, taking into account the actual number of merits and necessities of the whole State. Having electors as returned by the census of 1865, New thus argued against the system as objectionable, York city has 128,975; her proportion on this it is hardly necessary to show the difficulties in census, upon which we are operating, would be the way of its adoption. It might perhaps be 124,760, leaving only a deficiency of 4,215, that applied, with some degree of success, in- small dis- is, if you take into account the actual number of tricts or municipalities; but its complexity would voters as given by the census of 1865. They make it difficult to be understood by the will be, therefore, represented within 4,215, and voter, and then there would necessarily be great what they would be entitled to under the proopportunities for fraud by the returning posed apportionment. The second district has and canvassing officers, especially so when esti- 106,035, the proportion of voters is 99,808, makmating the number of votes given as second or ing an excess of only about 6,227. But these third choice. I wish before taking my seat to call votes are never fully polled, and if you go into the attention of the committee to an argument the number of votes cast at any closely contested raised in reference to the apportionment of the sen- election you will find it is a fair measure of the ate districts. It has been claimed that the com- interest taken by the electors in 'the result. mittee must have taken into account the political It is proper to take this into account when complexion of those districts. I disavow, on the considering the question. The third district part of the committee, so far as I am concerned, has 91,162. The result of this examination any such consideration. It might have been an shows that in all the rural districts they cast omissin on my part, that I should thus neglect more nearly their proportion of the Votes than 687 they did in the city of New York arid in the second district. Now, in regard to the various majorities. They have varied from time to time in these several districts. In some of these districts in 3864 the mnjority went one way, and in 1860 they went the other way; the figures being very close in them. If we were to take the number of electors that have been returned, as a basis, you would find an entirely different result, that of excluding aliens or any other portion of the populatiou. If you take into account all these elements which go to make up the body which should be represented in ile Legislature, I say these figures show that the committee had no political design to make any such predominance of control of the party now in power for the future. I might be allowed to say further that my view of changing the mode of election fioml small to large senatorial districts is based upon the consideration which had led gentlemen, and, I believe, the people, to desire that large districts should be restored. But, I believe, in a strict party sense it would be better for the republican party to retain a siIngle district system if you take into account simnply nlumbers. I believe that the result will show in the future, as it has in the past, that assuming the political parties to be divided as they are at the present time, the party to which I belono would send into the Legisla ture a larger proportion than we would be strictly entitled to; and take into consideration the division of the majorities under the large district system, it is a conceded result as shown, that the first and second districts would elect democrats, with doubt as to the result in the third, and the other five would very likely elect republicans. We, therefore, get in the division of the State into large or small districts a larger number of Senators than we would if we were to take the aggregate vote of the whole State. Therefore, if it is claimed that the object of recommending the large districts was looking to the future, with reference to political considerations, we must have been blind indeed to make the recommendation we did, when, in my judgment, the single districts would do better for our party than the larger districts. But I may be allowed to repeat some remarks I made yesterday, that I believe we can with larger districts, lengthened term, and increased compensation, elect men of prominence and purity, and by that means we would raise the dignity of the Senate so that it would be the pride of our State instead of a reproach. There is really no difference between a position in the Assembly and that in the Senate. A prominent man in St. Lawrence county [Mr. Hulburd] said, not long since, when asked to be a candidate to the Senate, that he would prefer being in the Assembly than in the Senate; that he regarded the dignity of an Assemblyman as equal to that of a Senator. He was, therefore, elected to the former body in 1861. Now, sir, while I am not tenacious about the manner of electing Senators, I am anxious to have the character of that body elevated and improved, and whatever I believe will tend to that result will meet with my hearty approval and support. Mr. DUGANNE-I am at a loss whether to look upon the proposition of the gentleman from Westchester as an exemplification of universal suffrage or of universal amnesty. Certainly it appears to me as one of those extraordinary exhibitions of political magnanimity which are peculiar in theory, and not sensible and not just in practice. I confess, Mr. Chai;man, that I am a believer in the representation of majorities rather than minorities, and I believe it is a democratic doctrine, and a doctrine which is essential to the perpetuity and the strength of the republic, that the majority should rule and that the minority should be represented only as far as they can be. The majority of to-day, in a well constituted republic, may be the minority of to-morrow, and the minority of to-day may be the majority of to-morrow, and it is proper that such a corrective should be accessible to the people at all times; so-if a majbrity of this State shall embody in its partisan rule such principles or such measures as are unjust-that the next year the minority shall have power to correct the wrong by overturning the injurious majority. It is the principle of democratic rule, and I do not believe at all in this representation of minorities, which is, I am aware, an exotic of English growth. Sir, it may be very well in England, where there are distinct file leaders of divided social and political interests-where the aristocracy on one hand and the democratic population on the other hand, are two absolutely antagonistic forces. But, in a representative republic, under a democratic government-a government of the people-we need the corrective power of majority rule. And what would be the effect of this minority representation, so called, in some respects? What would result from carrying out the principle of the gentleman from Westchester [Mr. Greeley], through certain obvious deductions? Sir, I can fancy a case where the minority might become the majority, and might elect two out of the three candidates proposed. Supposing that, in any one locality there are twenty-five thousand republican votes, and that the strength of the democracy in that locality amounts to twenty thousand votes, what prevents the executive committee-the leaders of that democratic minority-from printing ten thousand tickets with one name repeated three times upon each ticket, making thirty thousand votes, and ten thousand other tickets, with another name printed three times on each, amounting to thirty thousand votes more, thereby electing two candidates out of three, while the majority must be content with but one candidate, chosen by its twenty-five thousand votes? I do not think that this could be deemed a representation of minorities, in the sense which the gentleman would have us receive it in. I believe in coming down, in all of our deliberations, to the first principles of democracy, of true republican democracy, which should govern this Convention; and if we have receded from them in any particular in the existing Constitution, or in former Constitutions or laws, it is for us here, in our delegated capacity, to correct all wrongs and restore all rights to the people. Sir, I do not believe in going back to the old Constitution or to any theory or practice in political matters anterior to that Constitution. I do not believe 689 in taking from the people oue iota of that power district gave a republican mnjority of 12,022; and which the people have reserved to themselves or the eighth district gave a republican majority of delegated to individuals. I do not believe in the 15.356. I made this calculation from the vote cast system of large districts, as regards the for State Prison Inspector, believing that the vote popular branch of our Legislature. I am cast for that office more nearly represents the aware that our republican government is a party strength in the several districts than any* system of checks and balances; and, therefore, I other. Thus the Convention will see that the do not care how you constitute your Senate, or first and second districts, with a democratic mahow large your senatorial districts shall be; you jority of 56,510, can only elect nine Senators, may constitute it as you constituted a portion of while the other six districts, with an aggregate this Convention, by the election of delegates at republican majority of 72,883, will elect twentylarge, and thus elect your Senate from the whole four republican Senators, for the reason that the people of the State. But, sir, I contend that we republican majority in those districts is nearly must consult the interests, the strength, and the evenly divided between those districts. Now, rights of the whole people of the State, and we sir, we have inserted a provision in the second must come down as near to the people as it is article of our proposed Constitution, prohibiting possible for us to do, and, at the same time, obtain bribery and corruption at the polls, but we have a proper representation. Twenty years ago, adopted no provision as yet to prevent corruption the people were left by the Constitution to elect and bribery at the nominating conventions. It their representatives from single districts, at a must be obvious to every person present that time when they were but partially educated a nomination in each of these districts will In the knowledge of a republican form of govern- be equivalent to an election, and it is easy tnent. Now, it is a poor compliment to our to imagine the means that will be resorted common-school system, if we cannot intrust the to by the contesting candidates to secure a sole power to the people, after twenty years of nomination. Now, sir, in my humble judgeducation. I do not believe in going back at all. ment the sovereign power in a republican My motto id progress for the people - progress government is vested in the pedple. We the peoeom:uensurate with education; and if we educate pie are the sovereigns, and our representatives in the people to the point where they can understand our State Legislature or in the Congress of the politics, and understand politicians, we need not United States are our legislative servants, selectfear to i:.trust themr with the election of their own ed by us to represent our sovereign will in those representatives L'rom circles as near to their'homes two bodies. Now, sir, if it is bad policy to have as may be possible. Sir, if I desired an agent to the State divided into districts smrall enough to transact busi::ess for me at a distant point, I should enable the Representatives to know and undertake care, if possible, to secure a mani who is stand the wants and interests of their constituents known in the range of my business acquaintance -if it is bad policy to have the people directly as a true man, an honest man. I should not take and fairly represented in these halls -then we some person fiom another city or another por- had better retrace our steps and return to the tion of the country whom Idid not know. I old monarchical system and proclaim to the world think that the people of small districts, in electing that with us a republican form of government has members to the popular branch of the Legislature. proved to be a failure. Why, sir, the people are ought to be governed by the same desire. We more nearly represented in the Congress of the shoiuld take those men whom we know, and I United States than they will be in the Legislabelieve that we can fnd in our circles of acquaint- ture of this State by the plan submitted by this anue, men whom we can trus:, and who are report. The city and county of New York, a city known to us more thoroughly than any man representing almost the entire commercial intercan be whose residence is remote trom us in the ests of this State and containing nearly one-fourth district or county. of its inhabitants, is but one assembly district and Mr. YOUNG —I think the plan submitted by one senatorial district, while it is divided into the committee is objectionable in every light in six congressional districts and each Congresswhich it can be viewed. It is objectionable for the man represents particular wards and districts of reasons assigned by thegentleman from Richmond that great city. The county of Kings, sir, is [Mr. E. Brooks], by the gentleman from Rensselaer divided into two congressional districts, while by [Mr. M. I. Townsend], and the gentlemrn from the plan submitted in this report, it is but one Orange [Mr. FullertonJ; and in addition to the assembly district and a fractional part of a senareasons assigned by them, I think it is objec- torialdistrict. The counties of Erie and Oneida are tionable in its political division of the State each but one assembly district, and each but a into senatorial districts. Taking the vote cast fractional part of a senate district, while each of at last fall's election for a basis, the political those counties are oongressional districts. Besides, majorities in the several senatorial districts sir, the fourth senatorial district is to comprise are as follows: The first district gave a demo- one-third of the whole territory of the State of cratic majority of 46,266; the second district New York, and the electors will know but little a democratic majority of 10.244, making a demo- more of the personal character of the nominee cratic majority in the first and second dis- for honesty and integrity, much less of hil trcts of 66,510. The third district gave a repub- intellectual qualifications, than if he was likan majority of 3,085; the fourth district gave a nominated from the State at large. I repuiblicaa'majorityof 17,475; thefifthdistrictgave believe, sir, that every elector in this State a republican majority of 12,476; thesixth -district desires to know personally, if possible, something gaVt republican mority of 12,&8G; the wvenatl of the oharacter of the man, for common onuesty 689 at least, who is to represent him in the Legislature of this State. I, for one, after hearing the many complaints made against the Legislature for corruption on this floor, want to know from personal observation, or at least from neighborhood report, whether the man for whom I am to cast my vote is an honest man, or one who would be likely to be tempted by a bribe. I should prefer that the State be divided into forty-five senatorial districts, and each district be entitled to one Senator, whose term of office should be three years; that the districts be so arranged that one-third of the districts elect each one Senator every year, and so that each county containing 85,000 inhabitants or more be entitled to be represented by one or more Senators, each Senator would then represent as many inhabitants as a Senator has heretofore represented under the former Constitutions of this State. I therefore hope that the plan recommended in the report of the committee will not be adopted. The hour of two having arrived, the President pro tern. [Mr. Alvord] resumed the chair in Convention, when the Convention took a recess until half-past seven o'clock. EVENING SESSION. The Convention re-assembled at half-past seven o'clock. Mr. MERRITT-I have a resolption I would like to offer, which I think is of a privileged character. It is well known that the President of this body, as also the President pro ter. [Mr. Folger], are absent, and cannot attend the sittings of this Convention, perhaps for several days to come. I think it is very proper, we should have another President pro ter. and I therefore offer the following resolution: The SECRETARY proceeded to read the resolution, as follows: Resolved, That the Hon. Thomas G. Alvord be and he is hereby appointed President pro tern. in the absence of the President, Mr. Wheeler, and the President pro ter. Mr. Folger; and the Secretary is hereby directed to officially notify the Comptroller of this appointment. The PRESIDENT pro tem.-The Chair will inform the Convention before putting the question on this resolution, that under the rules of the Convention the Chair cannot hold its present position any longer; that the two days for which it holds the position, by the request of the President pro tern., will expire this evening, and it may be that the President pro ter. will not arrive here this evening. The question was then put on the resolution of Mr. Merritt, and it was declared adopted. The Convention then resolved itself into the )Committee of the Whole oti the report of the Committee on the Legislature, its Organization, etc., Mr. ARCHER, of Wayne, in the chair. The Chairman announced the question to be on the amendment of the gentleman from Cortland [Mr. Ballard]. Mr. PRINDLE-I have not heretofore occupied much of the time of the Convention, or of the committee, nor do I intend to, but I have a few thoughts upon the propositions before the Committee which I wish very briefly to submit. The 87 gentleman from Rockland [Mr. Conger], in the discussion of this proposition yesterday, seemed to carry the idea that the committee in excluding aliens from the basis of representation had been guilty of a very startling innovation. I think in the course of his remarks he said something about the committee having brought in a project, or a proposition, the effect of which was to crush out the foreign population of this State; and in order to sustain his position, the gentleman quoted from the Constitution of 1846, and placed a construction upon the clause relating to the basis of representation which I never heard placed upon it before, and I do not believe that any gentleman of less ingenuity than the gentleman from Rockland [Mr. Conger] would have ever thought of placing such a construction upon it. The section is as follows: "The members of Assembly shall be apportioned among the several counties of this State by the Legislature, as nearly as may be, according to the number of their respective inhabitants, excluding aliens and persons of color not taxed, and shall be chosen by single districts." And the gentleman claimed that it was the true and proper construction of this language, that aliens who were taxed should be included in the basis of representation. On looking at the Constitution of 1777, I find that the electors of the State are made the basis of representation, and electors alone. On looking at the Constitution. of 1821, I find that "aliens, paupers, and persons of color not taxed" are excluded from the basis of representation, and on looking at the debates of the Convention that framed the Constitution of 1846, I find there is no sort of pretext or excuse for placing such a construction upon this portion of the Constitution. The committee in the Convention of 1846 that had this subject in charge, reported the phraseology precisely as it was in the Constitution of 1821, excluding aliens, paupers, and persons of color not taxed. A motion was made in the Convention of 1846 by Mr. Chatfield, of Otsego, I think, to strike out those words, "aliens, paupers, and persons of color not taxed," and it was subsequently withdrawn except in regard to paupers. That motion was renewed by the Hon. Mr. Bergen, who is also a member of this Convention. On motion of. Mr. Baker (I think it was) the question was divided, and it was taken in that Convention distinctly upon the question of striking out the word "aliens," and, sir, it was lost, only twenty members in the whole Convention voting for striking out the word "aliens." Then, sir, on looking at the debates of the Convention of 1846, I find that no one person even suggested the idea that aliens taxed were to form a portion of the basis of representation. Nobody thought of it in that Convention, and, as I said before, there is not the slightest excuse for placing any such construction upon it. Now, sir, in view of the precedent established in 1717, the precedent established in 1821, and the precedent established in 1846, I ask you, Mr. Chairman, what justice or what fairness there was in accusing the committee of this innovation, and this attempt to crush out the foreign population of the State? The gentleman also alluded to the wealth of the great city 690 of New York, and its surroundings. I do not know for what purpose; I cannot understand for what motive, unless it was because the gentleman is in favor of the principle of property qualification. I trust, sir, that we have got beyond that. But the gentleman must be either in favor of the principle of property qualification, or else his words amounted to nothing, and were entirely meaningless in this discussion, when he alluded to the large amount of property in the city of New York. Why, sir, we of the country might as well allude to the broad acres that we possess, and say that our representation ought to be increased because we have these broad lands, whilst those in the city are pent up within narrow limits. I claim sir, that the true basis of representation, and the philosopical basis of representation is the electors of the State. They have the political authority of the State. I know, sir, that it may be inconvenient, it may be impracticable to allow the census taken to determine who the electors are, and perhaps it may be as well, and will be substantially correct to base the representation upon all the citizens of the State of New York. But, sir, I claim that.there is no foundation for the idea or the claim, that aliens should be counted as a portion of the basis of representation. I believe, sir, that every elector ought to be equal, and have equal political power in the State of New York, whether he lives in the country or whether he lives in the city, whether he lives among aliens or whether * he lives elsewhere. Sir, this is a representative government, and who are the persons that are represented in the Legislature and in the Senate of this State? They are those, sir, who send their representatives to the city of Albany to act in their place and stead. Senators are not sent here, sir, to act in the place of aliens. Why do we send representatives here at all? It is because the body of electors find it inconvenient and entirely impracticable to come here and transact their business, and perform acts of legislation, therefore they select men as their representatives, not as the representatives of aliens to come here and transact their business for them. And I believe, sir, as I said before, that the true basis is the electors themselves. In regard to the large districts which are proposed by the committee, although I would like very much to agree with the report of that committee,I am compelled to say that I have not been convinced of their propriety by the arguments that have been adduced here. I have great respect for the ability and the integrity of that committee, but yet, Mr. Chairman, I feel bound to act upon my own judgment, and to do what I believe the interests of the great State of New York require. And sir, I am opposed to these very large districts that have been proposed by this committee for the same reason that the gentleman from Rensselaer [Mr. M. I. Townsend] expressed himself as opposed to those large districts, because I think I can see that it will take the power out of the hands of the people, and throw it into the hands of the politicians. Now, sir, what will be the political workings of this system? The gentleman seeking a nomination in a large district (embracing twelve counties perhaps, as the district in which I am placed does), will look around in the first place to find his friends to procure him the nomination, and to whom would he go? It would be utterly impossible for him to address himself to the people at large to any particular extent. He must necessarily go to the politicians for his support and for strength to procure him the nomination. And, sir, it does seem to me that there would be what I have heard termed a " regency," established in this State, having naturally its head-quarters at the seat of government, here in Albany, which would reach out its long and meddlesome fingers into every district in this State, and would control the nomination and election of Senators in nearly every district. The gentleman from Rensselaer [Mr. Seymour] says it is necessary that the Senate should be a dignified body, and that Senators elected should be men of reputation. I believe too, sir, that they should be men of reputation, and men of ability, and men of integrity, but, sir, I do not think it is absolutely essential that they should be possessed of that doubtful reputation which is manufactured by the newspapers of this State. I would prefer, sir, a man who has a reputation at home, a man who has a good reputation among his fellow townsmen in his own county, and in the adjoining counties, that he has acquired by his acts and dealings among his fellow citizens day after day, and I believe, sir, that that is a more substantial reputation than a reputation that is often acquired through the newspapers. I think I can see. sir, how, in this large district system, a great man could be made very quick, if it was necessary, in order to put him in nomination for a Senator. It would be only necessary, sir, to publish an article in the newspapers, and send it afloat in other papers interested in the same projects in this State, and a man might spring from a common man to a great man, almost like a mushroom, in a single night, and he would become the only man that could justly and properly represent his district in the State of New York. I claim, sir, that the people in these election districts ought to have the privilege of knowing the men whom they are to send to the Legislature. We act, sir, upon this principle in all our business affairs, in all the ordinary transactions of life. We do not, in a business point of view, trust a man with our dearest and most important interests unless we know him ourselves. We do not take the reputation that is so easily acquired in the newspapers. We do not take the say-so of politicians, but we act upon our own information and upon our own knowledge. I believe that in the Senate districts as they are now organized, and in each of them, there are men of intelligence, and there are men, too, of integrity, sufficient to act as Senators in this State without embracing.too many counties or too much population in these large districts. Sir, the best representation we have in this State is in the board of supervisors, where the people of the town know their men-the very best representation we have. There, sir, in the primary meetings the people get together and nominate the men they want, and the men that they know, and they nominate capable and trusty men who perform the duties of their situation well and faithfully, so far, I believe, at least, as thee county districts are con 691 cerned. Now, sir, in regard to the election of a magnitude and variety, require a patient and long' Governor, in regard to the election of State offi- examination in order to be well understood and cers, in regard to the election of a President of properly criticised and governed. The extent the United States, we do elect men that we know; and bearing of all our varied public interests which we elect men who have been before the public for require legislation, cannot be comprehended in a a long period of time, and we know them by the day or in a month, and therefore it is that a record that they have made. We know them body, intended in our republican theory of govby their acts and by what they have eminent, to be a conservative, restraining and redone before the people of the State of New vising power, should be so constituted as to be York, but it is not necessary that we should take always composed of a majority of men of experimen for Senators who have had a large experi- ence. This is one of the first elements, if not the ence; we must necessarily take some men who first, that should be attained. The plan proposed have had a limited experience perhaps in legisla- by the committee is deemed the most feasible tion, and by that means perhaps often get the very way of accomplishing this all important result. best men. I am in favor, sir, of a conservative I should personally be satisfied if the Stats were Senate. I am in favor of a Senate that will be a divided into sixteen senate districts having two check upon the other branch of the Legislature. Senators each, and electing one every two years, I know that there are times when the people thereby resulting in having always one-half old perhaps may go a little too fast, and when the and experienced members. In 1846 the Committee representatives elected annually by the people, on the Organization,etc,of the Legislature reported coming fresh from the people, may be inclined to that thirty-two Senators should be elected for two be a little rash and to go too fast in a time of high years in single districts, but in order to allow the political excitement. But, sir, I would make the element of experience which they deemed necesSenate conservative by electing them, if you sary, they provided that elections should be had please, for a longer period of time, by allowing in one-half the districts every year. This was themn to be elected for four years, and have them objected to as giving opportunity for colonization arranged in such a manner that one would be and fraud, was called the ride and tie system, elected annually, if you please, so that there may be and was abandoned. I think the arguments a fresh infusion each year from the people into the there used and which are to be found in the body of the Senate. I do not see why that would reports of that body, will convince any man of the not preserve the conservatism of the Senate, and lack of feasibility in a system of elections for make it a sufficiently conservative body. But, sir, State officers only in one portion of the State suppose you elect from large districts in this State, in a year. That Convention lost the opportunity and suppose there should happen to be what is. of having experienced men in the Senate, but sometimes called a "regency" here in the city of gained uniformity in election. I think the expeAlbany, extending throughout the State, having rience and observation of the last twenty years its agents and instruments in every county in this have covinced the people that we need a change State; suppose that regency gets the entire pos- in this respect in order to accomplish the results session, and succeeds in controlling the nomina- aimed at in having a Senate at all, and I, theretion and election of Senators, they must, under fore, shall support the plan of the committee or that arrangement necessarily, to a large extent, any other that will accomplish the same result. control the action of those Senators when they If we look at the Constitutions of the other States come to take their places in the body of the Sen- as to the term of office of Senators, we find that ate. With such a power as this, sir, they would in sixteen States the term of office is four years; almost necessarily elect the Governor; and if im- in twelve States it is two years, and in six States portant officers are appointed by the Governor, - being the New England States -it is one year; and confirmed by the Senate, they would in a but in the majority of all the States it is so arlarge measure control the whole of those officers- ranged that they shall not all be elected at one Here the gavel fell, the gentleman's time hav- time. It may be proper also for me to state here ing expired. that I am opposed to this body making any apporMr. MERWIN-I desire, Mr. Chairman, to tionment of the State into senate districts. I state briefly, the reasons that induced me, as one think that is a part of the duty of the Legislature, of the Committee on the Organization of the Leg- It is a matter of detail that we have no business islature, to concur in the proposition to elect with. It will only incumber the Constitution, Senators by large districts. Under the present and it is unnecessary for us to do it; and there is Constitution, the Senators are all elected at one another and a stronger reason, which is, that the time, and of course, all go out of office at one moment we start to apportion we step into the time. And therein is the defect. I have no fault political arena; we leave our province as Constito find with the present Senate districts, or with tution makers, and place ourselves V~ere motives the number of Senators or their general character of policy or partisanship will almost inevitably be and standing, except this liability to have an charged upon us. We will thus unnecessarily entire new set of men every two years. It is this disturb the harmony of our deliberations, possible, and in practice, usual lack of experience and descend to the level of a mere political Convenin the members of the Senate that in my mind tion. It will be besides an entire waste of timo. condemns its present constitution. As a matter Certainly, that we cannot afford now. We of fact, not one quarter of the Senators are can, very likely, agree upon principles. We can re-elected, and the new members must be engaged lay down general rules for the government and for one-half their term in learning how to do their guidance of the State, but the moment we come duty. The institutions of our State, from their to a matter of detail, like this apportionment, we 692 are all afloat with one hundred and sixty pilots to leaves the Senate as at present constituted, and guide us, all of whom think they are right, and proposes also that this Convention shall arrange that their own localities must be attended to. the Senate districts. I understand, Mr. Chair Reference has been made by the gentleman from man, that there are two amendments now Essex [Mr. Hale] to a remark of mine about the pending, and, of course, another is not admissible tyranny of majorities in a report that was made by at present. I have thought that a medium me. My remark, in that connection, was this: "The proposition between these two extremes might ingenious theories of Mr. Hare, are more adapted be favorably received by the Convention, and I to the evils of the British system than our own. have drawn and will read as a part of my remarks His fear of the tyranny of majorities has not a section which I propose to offer as a substitute much foundation in fact with us." Now, then, for the amendment of the gentleman from Cortwhat was his fear and its basis? It was the fear land. It is as follows: that if the great mass of the people, the democ- "The Senate shall consist of thirty-two members racy as he terms them, had once the reins of and shall be chosen for four years. The Legislapower in their hands, they would oppress and ture at its first session after the adoption of this tyrannize over the other classes of community, the Constitution, shall divide the State into thirty-two more educated, or intelligent, or wealthy; and senate districts, numbered from one to thirty-two in the minorities which he speaks of, he always inclusive, each one of which shall choose one places the more intelligent and virtuous, and pleads Senator. Said districts shall be formed of confor them a constitutional provision for their proper tiguous and convenient territory, and as near as representation. And as illustrations of his theory, may be of an equal number of inhabitants, excludhe refers to the tyranny of the democracies of the ing aliens, and no county shall be divided in the ancient Grecian republics, and to the tendencies formation of a senate district, except such as are of the American republics, as those tendencies are equitably entitled to two or more Senators. The asserted in the works of John C. Calhoun, a Senators first elected in said districts having the favorite authority of the author, and of whose lowest even numbers shallvacate their offices at reliability I need not here speak. In other words, the end of one year; those elected in districts havin a country where there were classes recognized ing the highest even numbers at the end of the by law, the fear of Mr. Hare was that if one class second year; those in districts having the lowest got the power in its hands, it would tyrannize over odd numbers at the end of the third year; and another class, its inferior in numbers, although those in districts having the highest odd number not in intelligence and virtue. It is very evident at the end of the fourth year; and as vacancies that in this country, there is no foundation in fact occur, one-fourth of the whole number of Senafor such a fear, and that is all I said in the report tors in the order of districts above named shall be I made. I admit, sir, and strongly urge, that in elected each year. " our deliberations we should have no reference to It will be observed, Mr. Chairman, that partisan feelings or results. While it is true that a this retains the present number of Senators, majority always will govern, it is also true that and I hold that this is an argument in its the majority of to-day may be the minority of to- favor. It will be wise for this body, not morrow, and in forming or laying down a Consti- only inthe arrangement of the senate districts, tutional principle, it is not safe for any one, but in all other respects, to retain the text of the whether in the majority or minority, to lay down old Constitution so far as experience has proved or support a rule or principle as applicable to that it is acceptable and satisfactory to the peoanother, which he is not willing should apply to pie. There is no complaint, so far as I know, that himself. the number of Senators is either too small or too Mr. FLAGLER -I have long entertained the large. Why then change the number? Why opinion, sir, that in constituting the Senate of this not leave it as it is? This proposition leaves it State it would be wise to return to the old ar- at thirty-two, the present number. In the desire rangement of eight Senate districts. I came to to secure a more permanent and experienced this body with the hope that this arrangement body,the advocates of the enlarged Senate districts would obtain. I looked with favor upon the re- make the term of senators four years, and port of the standing committee on that subject the gentleman who has just spoken [Mr. Merwin] and expected to sustain it, but I will confess to has told you that this conforms to the Constituyou, sir, that the discussions which have been tions of a large number of the States of this had in this body, have unsettled my opinion in Union. This shows that the preponderating tesregard to the adoption of that report and have led timony is in the direction of a term longer than me to doubt also whether, indeed, it would be wise that prescribed for Senators in this State at this to concur in the conclusions of the committee. time. My amendment provides for the election A great and probably the principal object sought of Senators to hold their office for the term of for in the proposed re-organization of the Senate four years, and thus the permanent character of is to make that body more permanent in its that body is secured. This amendment, I think, character, and to secure to its membership in- has merit also in another respect, and that is, that, creasing experience. This, I believe, is in accord- unlike the proposition of my friend from Cortland ance with public sentiment. The development [Mr. Ballard], which proposes that this Convenof hostility to the report of the standing con- tion shall descend to the legislative task of armittee in favor of eight large districts satisfies ranging these districts, it refers to the next Legisme this object cannot be attained in that way. lature, chosen after the adoption of this ConstituThe pending amendment of the gentleman from tion, this appropriate duty of a Legislature. Why Cortland [Mr. Ballard] is objectionable in that it should this body assume the uncalled for and ema barassing task of making this arrangement of sen- in the first, third and fifth, and so on up to the ate districts? If it be made by this body, it will be the fifteenth, and in the fourth year in but in the first instance-at the next enumeration the seventeenth, nineteenth and twenty-first, it will necessarily devolve on the Legislature to and so on up to the thirty-first district, and then make the re-arrangement which will become un- continuing in rotation in this order. I offer this avoidable. Why not have the Legislature do it in proposition, Mr. Chairman, and make these sugthe first instance as well as subsequently? I gestions as a contribution in the direction of helphold that this arrangement of senate districts is a ing us out of the embarrassments which are surlegislative act. The Constitution of twenty-two rounding us, and which I am sure will increase as States of this Union, which I have examined, are this discussion goes on, especially if the attempt free from the absurdity of having senate districts be persevered in by this Convention to form these crammed into them. The province and the only senate districts of this State. As I said in the province of this body is to issue its mandate to outset, sir, the substitution is not in order now, the Legislature, prescribing the manner in which but if favorably received I will offer it as a subthis service shall be performed, and when this is stitute for the amendment moved by the gentleman done, the proper functions of this body cease. I from Cortland [Mr. Ballard] at the proper time. hold it right, therefore, that we should refrain Mr. KERNAN —Although it was not my from the attempt to incorporate the senate districts intention to take any part in this discussion at into the Constitution, and thus save the time it this time, nevertheless as no other gentleman will waste and the annoyance which will ensue. It seems desirous of occupying the attention of the is not only right, Mr. Chairman, but it is politic. committee, I will ask leave to make a few suggesThe discussions which have already been had tions. The object, as I assume, of vesting the must satisfy gentlemen on this floor that legislative power of the State in two bodies, is when we enter upon this discussion of mak- that one may be to some extent a check upon the ing suitable senate districts - when we at- other. The Senate, the smaller body, should be tempt to make them with the most honest so constituted, in my judgment, as that it shall and earnest desire to conform to every right and possess different characteristics from the House. protect every interest, we encounter serious objec- It should be so constituted that it shall have more tions and prejudices: and whatever may be of stability and permanence, and less of local prethe fate of this Constitution at the hands of the judice and local interests; so constituted as to people, I venture this prediction, that if this be influenced less by popular and temporary Convention thrusts into the body of it these sen- excitement than the other branch of the Legislaate districts it will cost thousands of votes on the ture. In a word, the members of the Senate question of its adoption. We must necessarily should represent to a greater degree the interests encounter the prejudices of location and the real of the State and the entire people, than does or fancied inconveniencies which must necessarily the more popular branch of the Legislature. occur. If angels were to form those senate dis- And in organizing the Senate we should tricts they would, in the estimation of some men, endeavor to so organize it that it shall have be imperfect. They would encounter the hostility these characteristics. The scheme of -the comof many portions of our State, which would mani- mittee which has been laid before us, is that the fest itself at the polls. My project, Mr. Chair- State shall be divided into eight large districts, in man, rightfully and appropriately, it seems to me, each of which four Senators shall be elected refers to the Legislature this work of arranging whose term of office shall be four years, these senate districts and defining the time within and so arranged that a quarter of the body shall which that service shall be performed. They go out each year and the people elect others to should be of convenient and contiguous territory, supply their places. The plan proposed by the and they should, as near as may be, of an gentleman from Cortland [Mr. Ballard], as an equal number of inhabitants, excluding aliens, amendment, is that we shall have thirty-two comand in this I adopt the text of the old paratively small districts, and one Senator elected Constitution so far as aliens are con- in each, whose term shall expire at the end of two cerned. Under it, I hold, Mr. Chairman, we years. By this plan as I understand it, all the shall attain every practical result sought for by Senators will come into office at the same time, the advocates of the large senate districts. We and the terms of each expire at the same time. shall have the service of men in that place for In my judgment, sir, the principle which underlies four years, and the only difference is that instead the plan of the committee is preferable with a of electing one Senator in each of eight senate view to make the Senate what it should be. districts in each year, we shall elect them in the There is no object in having substantially two order I have named, or in some other order which Houses of Assembly or two branches of the shall substantially conform. Thus if this section Legislature, each having substantially the characis adopted, and the Constitution be approved also, teristics of the other. It seems to me that at the first election of Senators which would occur, the plan of the gentleman from Cortland [Mr. the whole number would be chosen. At the end Ballard] makes the Senate substantially what the of the first year, Senators would be chosen in the Assembly is. It is true that the term of office is second, fourth, sixth, eighth, tenth. twelfth, four- to be two instead of one year, and the district is teenth and sixteenth senate districts. At the end larger than the assembly district, but the Senator of the second year they would be chosen in the will be in effect a mere local representative, and eighteenth, twentieth, twenty-second, twenty- the bcdy will not have the permanent character fourth, twenty-sixth, twenty-eighth, thirtieth, and which it should have. By electing Senators from thirty-second districts. At the end of the third, large districts for four years, with only one-fourth 694 of the members going out each year, we secure liable to be too much moved by temporary excitestability in the legislation and policy of the State, ment and clamor. Under the plan proposed by and to a considerable extent we secure a body the committee, we have combined the advantages having large experience. Its members will not of large districts and long terms. We constitute be mere local representatives. They will par- the Senate so that its members shall have experitake to a considerable degree of the character ence and the body itself stability, and yet it will of State representatives; they will not, in my each year be subjected to the scrutiny of the elecjudgment, be as liable to be the selection of tors, and be influenced by their voice in the cliques. Men of greater experience will be election of one-fourth of the body. I theresecured in electing by large rather than small fore trust that this Convention will adopt the districts; at least this will be the tendency. principle of making the Senate, through these In a district of six or eight counties and of wide large districts, a different body from what it now territory, each of the rival parties will be likely is, making, as I trust and believe this Convention to select as a candidate a person who has been desires to do, the districts fairly, and thus disarmengaged in public affairs and acquired a reputa- ing opposition and uniting all the friends of the tion for ability and integrity. This will not be so plan of large districts in its support. They should probable when the selection is to be from small be made fairly, in reference to population, and in districts. I know gentlemen have said, that it is reference to geographical lines, and also in refervery desirable that a Senator should be elected ence to the effect upon political parties as they from a small district, to the end that the electors exist. I believe that this is the desire of the may be well acquainted with him. If the dis- members of this Convention. I believe there is a tricts are large, men will be selected as candidates desire among those who are in favor of the large with a view to success who are known over the district plan, to see that they are so formed that entire district, rather than persons who, often- no man, even if he is somewhat jealous in his partimes, by management have secured mere local tisan feelings, can say that they are not fair with favor. Without intending or desiring to institute reference to all. I trust this will be done, comparisons, I submit that the experience under that we shall alter and perfect the report the Constitution prior to 1846 and our experience of the committee in this spirit, and thus since are in favor of large Senate districts. in the Constitution to be proposed we shall The Senate under the Constitution of 1821 return to the system of a Senate elected from was a body, I submit to every gentleman, large districts. I am also in favor of electing the of greater weight in legislation, was composed of members of Assembly by counties, rather than men who seemed to look to the interest of the from smaller districts. Thus they were elected entire State more and to mere locality less, than prior to 1846. My earnest and eloquent friend from gentlemen in the Senate of equal integrity and Rensselaer [Mr. M. I. Townsend] seemed someability since. We secured, under the former Con- what startled at the idea of going back in this stitution, a stability in our policy and legislation, age of progress to what our fathers practiced. I and a freedom from the influence of temporary am in favor of everything I believe to be progress excitemen,t, greater than we have had since. I in the wise and well government of our State, and do not desire to point to particular instances, but in the improving of our Constitution. But it is I appeal to each gentleman's recollection. An- not wise to be alarmed by the mere cry that we other advantage of a large district is that four are retrograding when we only propose to return men are elected from it, and each year the people to that which worked well, and to abandon only a are called upon to elect one of them, and thus can novelty which experience has demonstrated not indicate their views on public questions every to be an improvement. Now, I appeal to year in every district. Nevertheless, there is every gentleman who remembers the elecretained in the body that experience, that tions before 1846. Take, for instance, knowledge of State affairs and State wants, a county like Oneida or Onondaga; each which are acquired by a term of four years, of the parties would make nominations, and each and which is available to the new members. I, would place on its ticket at least one or two prior to the discussion here, supposed there was strong, experienced men. It was found that a little difference of opinion on this question; that man of mere local reputation, who had not become there was a universal feeling among the people of well and favorably known over the county, the State that the able Convention of 1846 made would fail to be elected. Hence, each party a mistake When it divided the State into a large sought to nominate men of known ability and number of small senate and assembly districts. integrity throughout the county, to the end that I believed that it was the general opinion among they might be successful. How is it now? Is it the people of the State that the legislation had not true that an active and intriguing politician not been as wise, our State affairs not as well con- will caucus himself into a nomination and election ducted or administered, since 1846 as previously. in four or five towns, when he would not be able The system then adopted did not tend to give us to obtain either if he had to submit himself,in the Senate a body of experienced, independent to a vote of the electors of the entire county? men, not influenced by local feelings and local I do not say it has always worked so, beprejudices, and not susceptible to every current cause I know that many excellent and able of public opinion-a body of men who looked to men have been and are elected to the Assemthe interest of the entire State, and who were bly under the present system, but is it not true familiar with its affairs, condition and wants, and that small, scheming men have in small districts who were at times a wholesome check upon the managed to get a nomination and election, who more popular branch of the Legislature, which is could not succeed and would not be thought of 695 if the elections were by counties. I think elec- have the gentlemen now found? It is charged tions of members of Assembly are popular enough that this committee in preparing their report were in the sense of having men known to their con- governed by partisan motives and partisan designs; stituents when they are by counties; and in my that we "gerrymandered" the State; that we picked judgment elections by counties will give the State out a county here and a county there, and divided an abler and more independent House of Assem- the State into eight republican districts, except bly than we will have while we continue to elect the little matter of New York, where, I believe, by smaller districts. Now, sir, permit me to make they concede we have been so fair as to give them another suggestion which is not very pertinent to a democratic district. Now, I might say with this question. We are attemptingto frame a Con- perfect truth, if it were worth while, that I religstitution for our State, for a number of years; and. iously believe that the subject of politics, or the we should endeavor to frame it so as to produce political complexion of those districts, did not the best government for our State, for ourselves enter into the consideration of that committee at and for our children. While I have as much all. The two gentlemen on that committee respect as any other gentleman for the peo- from New York, gentlemen of intelligence and pie and for bringing things under scrutiny integrity, and who, I understand, belong to of the people, yet experience teaches us the same political party with our accusers, there aru some things which it is wiser have concurred most heartily in the princi. and for the good of the people to have done ple of this report, and in the details of the through officers appointed rather than through apportionment, and I believe they will supofficers elected; and 1 desire, although it may not port me in saying that the apportionment had be thought popular by some, to say, in answer to no partisan purpose whatever. But what is the comthe remarks of the gentleman from Rensselaer plaint here? Why the first complaint is that where[Mr. M. I. Townsend] that, in my judgment, we can as the republicans have only a majority equal to two wisely go back to where we were before the Con- per cent upon the whole vote in the State, yet by stitution of 1846 in reference to the appointing this apportionment we get twenty-four republican rather than the electing of some of the executive to nine democratic Senators, and thus they charge officers of this State. How is your executive to the committee the consequences of the whole State government under the present Constitution? democratic majority being pent up in the city of No head, no unity, no responsibility anywhere. New York and its environs. We cannot help that; Here the gavel fell, the gentleman's time hav- the committee did not know of any way to diffuse ing expired. and scatter this majority over the State. We did Mr. COOKE-I do not propose to enter into any not feel at liberty to put into the same district discussion of the question which forms the main anything but contiguous territory. If we could feature of the report under consideration, the ad- have brought down St. Lawrence county, and put vantages to spring from returning to a large dis- it into some of the wards in New York, I have no strict system rather than to continue single districts doubt my fiiend from Richmond [Mr. Brooks] as they now are. I had designed that other gen- would have been better satisfied with the result. tlemen, who had given the subject more thought Then again, we did not proceed right; weadopted and were more capable than myself, should pre- an erroneous basis of representation, and the sent the views of the committee on that question. gentleman seemed very indignant that this comNeither do I intend to enter minutely into the mittee had found out a new basis of representafacts to repel the foul and unjust charges made tion, that we had dared, in violation of against the committee by the gentleman from precedent, as was argued, to exclude aliens from Richmond [Mr. E. Brooks], and the gentleman the basis of representation. It has already been from Rockland [Mr. Conger] who addressed the shown how unjust that charge is. It has already committee last evening.. Something less than the been shown, that that has always been the rule in term of two months during which we have been the State. In 1821, "aliens, paupers, and colored in session here was sufficient to develop the persons not taxed," were excluded; and in 1846, fact that there were in this body gentlemen "aliens and colored persons not taxed." There who, if anything could be judged from their acts never has been any other rule in this State, and and speeches, were more intent upon finding indeed I know of no other wise, just or sensible something to carp at in the action of the majority rule. The gentleman from Rockland [Mr. Conger] than upon furthering the legitimate objects of says, 400,000 aliens are excluded from representathe Convention. Why, sir, gentlemen travel: out tion-400,000 subjects of a foreign power to-day, of the way and actually go begging for grievances. are not permitted to enter as an active element into and they are disappointed and chagrined if they our political system, they are not counted in can gather up nothing through the day which making up the representation. So much this they can throw into the face of the majority of offense amounts to. But I will not pursue this this Convention. I did think, when those gentle- fault-finding further. The committee were not only men were handling the committee so roughly last unanimous in regard to the principle of returning night, that perhaps it might be necessary, or to the large district system, but they were unaniproper at least, for some members of that commit- mous in regard to the apportionment details, protee to vindicate themselves and their conduct: vided the apportionment should be made by the yet when I came to reflect how cheaply these Covention at all. From the inquiries made of charges were made, and how common and how different members of this Convention. I supposed little respect or regard they were entitled to, I we represented the views of a decided majority made up my mind to pass them by as I do now. when we made this change. All I have to say What are we charged with, or what grievances on the main question now is, that it seems to me O 696 to be worthy of grave consideration by this Convention, to what extent this higher branch of the Legislature, this conservative branch, the Senate, ought to represent local constituencies. What is the object, as has been argued by the gentleman from Oneida [Mr. Kernan], of two houses, if they are to be organized alike, representing local constituencies alike? I do not think there is anything in the argument that every individual of the constituency should know personally the man who is to represent them in the Senate. I believe that our constituents demand some change, some improvement, something that will elevate the standard, if possible, of the Legislature. I intended to allude to one argument made use of by the gentleman from Rensselaer [Mr. M. I. Townsend] last evening. He says, under the old system to which we propose to return now, there was a man expelled from the Senate for corruption, and he says triumphantly, there has been no expulsion for such a cause under the present system for the last twenty years. I am not sure, sir, that it is entirely creditable to the Senate that for the last twenty years they have not expelled any member for corruption. I think the argument does not amount to anything until the gentleman shows that no Senator has deserved expulsion under the present system. He thinks if we return to this system politicians will get control of the Senate; they will have control of the nominations. How will it be so then more than it is now? Then delegates will be sent from different counties to the senatorial convention, and these delegates whom gentlemen may call politicians or agents of the "Albany Regency," if the Regency is not already dead-call them what you will, these delegates will be sent by the people to nominate Senators. precisely as is done now. They are just as much politicians who nominate Senators now; the same delegates are sent now as would be if the districts were larger. It is said the Senator will be the creature of the caucus. All the difference is, a small caucus makes the Senator now, whereas under the old system to which we propose to return, the caucus is composed of a larger body of men. I would as soon trust a large caucus as a small one. The committee anticipated the difficulty the Convention would find in agreeing upon an apportionment, and I was therefore disposed to report the principle upon which the apportionment was to be made and then send it to the Legislature to make the apportionment. I anticipated precisely the difficulty we find here. My colleague [Mr. Schoonmaker] stands up and says he is in favor of returning to the large district system, but he cannot go for the present apportionment, it does not place his county right. My friend from Albany [Mr. A. J. Parker] was in favor of the principle, but he prefers rather to remain according to the present arrangement than to adopt this apportionment. And why? Because by this apportionment St. Lawrence swallows up Albany, instead of being swallowed up by Albany. He wants his county in the third district, and nowhere else. The gentleman from Richmond [Mr. E. Brooks] wants to send Westchester out of the second district, and the gentleS man from Westchester [Mr. Greeley], on behalf of the republicans of that county, wants to come into the third district, and he apprehends no great difficulty in inducing this Convention to accommodate him. I hope he may get into the third district. But what a district the third will be with all this territory and all these men. I did not know of anything so attractive in the third district, that all these gentlemen should choose it in preference to all others. Why is it, sir? It is utterly impossible to satisfy every one on this floor upon an apportionment, particularly in forming large districts. I have drawn up a new apportionment, simply to show that this matter can be done in another way perhaps, and in such a way as to obviate some of the objections made by the gentlemen who have spoken in opposition to the report. I think I do not care much myself about the political aspect of these districts. I think I feel reasonably indifferent upon that subject, because we know that in the mutations of parties, three years may produce an entire change in the result in all these districts. What is now democratic, I hope and expect will be entirely republican three years hence. I really don't know why it should not be so. If this Constitution is adopted, we have taken the negro out of politics entirely and I do not know what possible capital the democratic party will have to trade upon; particularly as John Surratt's trial will have been ended, and he probably hung long before the adjournment of this Convention. But I do not think there is anything to be gained by one party or the other in an apportionment of this kind. I think the party that undertakes any gerrymandering or unfairness in a business of this kind will suffer for it in the end. Now I propose to return to the former number of thirty-two Senators in eight districts-the ratio being 428,000. I find that the counties of New York, Kings and Richmond, contain sufficient population for two districts. These three counties contain just 856,000, and I propose to leave it to some gentleman from New York, who are acquainted with the ward divisions of the city, to divide New York and carve out of it one district, and to set off the balance to the two counties of Kings and Richmond; these will undoubtedly be democratic districts-no man doubts that. Then for the third district I propose Suffolk, Queens, Westchester, Rockland, Putnam, Dutchess, Orange and Ulster, making 410,600; that falls 18,000 short of the ratio. This is undoubtedly a democratic district, and obviates another objection made by the gentleman from Richmond [Mr. E. Brooks] last night. There is a deficiency in this district. It falls below the ratio rather than being in excess of it. For the fourth district I propose Columbia, Rensselaer, Albany, Greene, Schenectady, Saratoga, Washington, Warren and Essex, a very compact district coming within 13,000 of the ratio, being 415,000. For the fifth district, Clinton, Franklin, St. Lawrence, Jefferson, Lewis, Herkimer, Hamilton, Fulton and Oneida, making 384,000. Here is a greater deficiency, but the territory is large and some portion of the district somewhat inaccessible, so I do not feel authorized to insert another county. I do not know that the special 697 guardians of the democratic party-the two gentlemen who addressed us last evening-have objection to this arrangement on the score of politics. For the sixth district, I propose Sullivan, Delaware, Schoharie, Montgomery, Otsego, Madison, Chenango, Broome, Tioga, Cortland, Tompkins, Chemungand Schuyler, 429,000. The seventh district, Oswego, Onondaga, Cayuga, Wayne, Seneca, Yates, Ontario, Monroe, Livingston. Here is quite an excess, 468,000 - 40,000. excess. The eighth district, Orleans, Niagara, Erie, Genesee, Wyoming, Steuben, Allegany, Cattaraugus and Chautauqua, 462,000. Now, these two districts are somewhat in excess, but the objections made to the apportionment reported are obviated. I only present this to show that the State is susceptible of another apportionment and that it is not necessary for us to give up in despair of ever being able to apportion the State into eight satisfactory senate districts. Mr. CARPENTER-I dislike very much to detain the Convention at this late hhalr. I make no issue with the gentleman from Ulster [Mr. Cooke], or with the committee, as to the apportionment which has been presented for the consideration of the Convention, provided the proposed large district system shall prevail, nor shall I say anything in reference to the duration of the senatorial term, because, under the amendment offered by the gentleman from Cortland [Mr. Ballard], the only question now presented for the decision of this body is whether it will provide for the retention of the senatorial districts as now organized by law, or recommend the formation of the enlarged districts as proposed by the committee. To this question I shall briefly address myself. I am not unaware that it may be regarded as an act of indiscretion, if not of temerity, to dissent from the conclusions of the standing committee-a committee the weight of whose names and the power of whose influence would contribute largely to the adoption of any proposition that they might submit, and I dissent only because I have been unable to discover the first substantial reason for the alteration of the present system. The committee seem to have conceived, and based their report upon, the fallacious theory that the extension of the territorial limits of a district will tend necessarily to the enlargement of the mental and moral stature of the representative. Experience and reason alike prove this theory to be unsound and unsustainable by fact. Under the Constitution adopted in 1821, Assemblymen and Senators were elected in the manner now proposed by the committee. A glance at the Civil List for the twenty-five years prior to the Convention of 1846, will exhibit the fact that, during those years, there was as much ability displayed in the Assembly as in the Senate of the State. And if the average ability of the Senate was at all superior, that superiority was attributable mainly to two reasons; first, because the Senate was numerically a smaller body, and second, because the duties devolving upon the Senate were of far greater importance than those devolving upon the Assembly. For a long period the Senate formed a part of the highest court in the State, arid Senatbrs were frequently nominated and 88 elected with reference to their judicial ability. The laws then conferred upon the Executive greater patronage, subject to confirmation, and Senators were called upon to discharge greater and more important duties in that respect than have devolved upon them in more recent times. And even now, if a change were made in the Legislature, so as to limit the powers of the Senate and increase the functions of the Assembly, from that moment the Assembly would become the more important body, and the position of Assemblyman more honorable than that of Senator. The ability of the representative is not proportioned to the size of the district from which he is chosen, but to the importance of the duties devolving upon him. We are led into a natural error in looking back at the Senate as it existed prior to 1846. It is natural to regard Senators, not as they were then engaged in the performance of their duties in the Senate, but to look upon their images which are treasured in our memories-images representing those men with the subsequent growth resulting from an experience of perhaps twenty-five years in the public service added to their statures. Upon the same rule, if we should change the present system and adopt the large district system, delegates to the Convention which may convene twenty years hence would be met at the very threshold, as they have been at this Convention, by some persons who are accustomed to trace effects to accompanying circumstances, and not to their adequate causes, asserting that the large district system had proved a failure, and that the single district system produced abler and better men, simply because many men now occupying a position in the Legislature will doubtless, during those twenty years, have attained a reputation much higher and more honorable than that derived from the position which they occupy at this time. We must not expect at the present time to see as marked instances of statesmanship in individuals, or men towering so far above their associates as they did fifty years ago. There may appear to be fewer giants now, because there are less pigmies. There may appear fewer of that cyclopean race of statesmen with a single eye to the public interest, because the general average of intelligence has increased and the dwarfs are rapidly vanishing. We must remember that we are not here to establish fundamental law for some Utopia, or modern Republic of Plato, but we are about to recommend a fundamental law for adoption by the people of the State of New York, with full knowledge of the corrupting influences in society, and in political organizations. So long as public sentiment shall be divided on great questions of human rights and municipal rights, of financial policy, and public improvements, so long the people will aggregate themselves into masses and form associations for the purpose of concert of action, and thus originate political parties. For the success of these political parties the caucus and the convention are as necessary as the Legislature and the executive chair for the exercise of the power of the State. It is necessary to look at these parties as they are, and, with reference to their practices. If you should consolidate four sena 698 torial districts as they now exist into one large public. It is as necessary that the Senate should district as proposed, when nominations come to be be acquainted with the wishes and demands of made, you will find, as heretofore, that the claims localities, as that the Assembly should, otherwise it of locality in nine cases out of ten will prevail would be as likely to act against as for the people, over the claims of merit. If your Senators are to and every check might be an act of tyranny be taken from a large district, that district in and every grant an usurpation; and I practice will be virtually parcelled into four sub- am decidedly of opinion that it would be divisions, and every senator will be nominated imprudent to theorize the veto power out of the from a circumscribed locality, and by delegates hands of the Governor. The committee seem to representing such limited portion of the district have had an idea that there is corruption as at present; or if this is not done, and the entire in the Legislature (a supposition which I am not district shall participate in the selection, the nomi- prepared to dispute) and they are disposed to nations will be almost invariably dictated by a suppress that corruption in the future by simply few prominent State politicians, and perhaps for altering the boundaries of the legislative districts. their own personal ends. I aver, therefore, I believe, Mr. Chairman, that if we should return that we will not insure greater ability or integrity to our constituents, and in reply to their inquiries by the adoption of the large district system. as to what we had done to prevent corruption in In the selection by a regency, overriding as the Legislature, we should tell them that we had they would the will of the people if stretched the boundaries of the districts so as to they did not accept the recommendation take the power out of their hands and put it into of the delegates from the particular locality from the hands of a few State politicians, they would which the nominee was to be chosen, they would laugh at us in derision; but if we should tell them probably in frequent instances select not the man that we had removed the objections which honest in whom the people had confidence; not the man men have to occupying seats in the Legislature, whom, through proximity of residence and oppor- by increasing the salary so as to enable them to tunities of association, the people had learned to pay necessary expenses at the capital, and that respect for the uprightness of his character, but we had removed the inducements which lead dissome played-out party hack that twenty years honest men to struggle for those seats, that we before had acquired a little notoriety by accidental had prevented the wholesale granting of special tenure of office, or by a succession of newspaper charters to corporations, which are frequently puffs. It is that class of men that, under the log-rolled through by large expenditures of money, large district system, would frequently represent that we had prohibited the Legislature from the people in the Senate. I believe that we are bestowing the funds of the State upon sectarian or more likely to insure integrity in the Senate of this other institutions, or appropriating the public State by circumscribing the districts in such a way money to any institution or public work that a district comprising a population large which the State does not own and controlenough to elect a Senator, shall have the oppor- if we should tell them that we had headed off tunity of presenting the name of a person honest the tax levy that might come up from New York, and upright, in preference to one who may be with bogus claims attached, involving a moneyed thrust upon it by a few centralizing politicians. pressure, if we should inform them that we had The gentleman from Chautauqua [Mr. Barker] and incorporated provisions that would prevent bribery the gentleman from Oneida [Mr. Kernan] have at the polls and in the Legislature, and even gone both advanced a peculiar idea in regard to the so far as to declare it bribery for a member of veto power. Sir, I do not regard the Senate of the Legislature to take pay for any service perthis State as constituted for the purpose of exer- formed in connection with that body, so that cising such prohibitory authority. Its powers members could not go home and acknowledge that and duties are in most cases co-ordinate with they had accumulated a large sum of money, and those of the Assembly. I admit, and I believe it claim that they had made it legitimately, for is proper, that one branch should be a check upon instance, by drafting a bill for some one person, the other, not to contravene the popular will, but and arguing some legal question or private claim to prevent inconsiderate and hasty legislation; before a committee for another person, and so on but neither branch is constituted for the purpose through the category, but all for large fees -I of exercising the veto power, for that would think, if we shall be able truthfully to make such be an infringement upon the Executive. a statement to the people, they will say that we And if, under the present constitution of the have struck at the root of the evil, and have taken Legislature either branch is pre-eminently the the right step toward preventing corruption, and checking power, aside from vague theory, I am toward securing for them in the future an honest unable to ascertain which it is. So long as bills can and reliable Legislature. Sir, whenever the terribe introduced into either branch, you may as well torial boundaries of a district are so extended as term the Assembly as to term the Senate the to include a population larger than sufficient to conservative and revisory body. The creation of elect one Senator, the district is entirely an the two bodies was for the purpose of preventing arbitrary one. There may be some reason for hasty legislation. Now, I am unable to see how electing Assemblymen by counties, because there the Senate is to be a proper body to prevent are well defined county lines, and because a person hasty and inconsiderate legislation; if, as the who is sufficiently prominent to be a member of gentleman from Chautauqua [Mr. Barker] claims, Assembly, is through county affiliations and it should be a magnificent body, figuratively on associations about as well known to the intellistilts, far above the people, knowing nothing of gent men of the entire county, as to tlsce of his the wants of localities, or of the demands of the own town or ward. There is a reason for the 699 establishment of judicial districts, because the entire litigation of the State cannot be attended to by one court, and a division into judicial districts becomes important also for the convenience of clients and attorneys, and for economy in securing the attendance of witnesses. But if there is any principle or reason on which to base these large senatorial districts, it should be desirable to carry that principle to its logical result, and reap the full benefit therefrom, by the election of all the Senators from the State at large. With the origin of our State government, certain ideas were introduced into our Constitution from the monarchical and aristocratic governments of Europe, and a slight modification of the legislative theory of the British Government was here adopted, and it took until 1846 to establish beyond question the correct theory of republicanism, namely, that the representative should be amenable to the people. Our Constitution framers at first tried four senatorial districts, and afterward eight; but not until 1846 did they recognize in its broad extent the principle upon which those districts are now based, that the Senator should be amenable to the electors of his district, and not responsible only to a certain portion of them. If there is any peculiar charm about the number eight, and any possible reason for such a subdivision, then consistency requires that there should be but eight Senators. The gentleman from Jefferson [Mr. Merwin] stated the correct doctrine in the report which he submitted to the Convention in regard to the representation of minorities in the Assembly, in which he argued substantially that the State should be so districted as to give minorities the amplest opportunity for representation. His argument applies with greater force to senatorial districts. Under our government majorities must govern - that is the great republican idea - but it is a matter of equity which we cannot fail to recognize that minorities should have a hearing and an opportunity for the redress of grievances. By the proposed large district system you draw through this State a geographical line, upon one side of which you will virtually enact that only those representing one particular shade of political opinions can be elected to seats in the Senate, and on the other side is the reverse, only those representing a different shade of political opinion can be allowed a voice in that body. We have had one geographical line drawn through the center of the Republic, and the valor of our soldiers in four years of bloody conflict has hardly effaced it. I dislike to see drawn through this State any line which will separate the agricultural and canal interests of one section from the mercantile and manufacturing interests of the other section, because as soon as we admit representatives of one party only from one side of that line, and only representatives of the opposing party from the other side, we will aid from that moment in creating in the people a greater divergence from a common interest, and assist in making each party to a certain extent sectional. As it is under the present senatorial district system, persons representing either of the great political parties can be elected on either side of the line which separats the territory of their respective majorities. Sir, that is the only ray in my judgment in which minorities in this State can be represented in the Senate. By retaining the present districts we contribute to the perpetuation of comparative harmony; by disarranging the present system and establishing the districts as proposed by the committee, I fear we shall foster a discordant feeling that may war against the best interests of the State. I believe we have been sent here by the people to recommend changes in the present Constitution only where changes are absolutely necessary to conserve the public welfare. They have demanded a more thorough recognition of human rights and municipal rights, and a certain reconstruction of our judicial system, and they demand that corruption in high places shall cease; and further than that I have heard of no complaint on the part of the people of this State, and their general apathy argues that they are oppressed by few abuses that need correction. That seems to me suffiieut reason for leaving well enough alone. And we incur very great risk of securing any reform, when, by any action on our part or by any refined theory as to the elevation of the body constituting the higher branch of the Legislature, we tend directly to take from the people that power which they are more competent to exercise properly than are a few ambitious men with a large State acquaintance. Mr. HrTCHCOCK-I move that the committee do now rise, report progress and ask leave to sit again. The question was put on the motion of Mr. Hitchcock, and it was declared carried. Whereupon the committee rose, and the Presi dent pro tern. Mr. ALVORD resumed the chair in Convention. Mr. ARCHER, from the Committee of the Whole, reported that the committee had had under consideration the report of the Committee on the Legislature, its Organization, etc., had made some progress thereon, but not having gone through therewith had directed their chairman to report that fact to the Convention and ask leave to sit again. The question was put on granting leave, and it was declared carried. On motion of Mr. FULLER, the Convention adjourned. SATURDAY, August 3, 1867. The Convention met at ten o'clock A. M., the President pro tern. [Mr. ALVORD], in the chair. Prayer was offered by Rev. A. A. FARR. The Journal of yesterday was read by the SECRETARY, and approved. Mr. MERWIN presented a petition from W. H. Main and thirty-six others, of the county of Jefferson, praying for a constitutional provision for the protection of fisheries in the international waters of the State. Which was referred to the Committee on the Preamble and Bill of Rights. Mr. FOWLER presented a petition from Jotham Sewall and one hundred and sixty others, citizens of Washington county, against donations to sectarian institutions. 700 Which was referred to the Committee on the but he has been called home by business which Powers and Duties of the Legislature. could not well be deferred. Mr. GRAVES presented a petition from J. B. No objection being made, leave was granted. Washburn, and one hundred and twenty others, of Mr. FOWLER- I ask leave of absence for Mr. Gloversville, Fulton county, asking that the Con- Endress until Tuesday next. He informed me stitution contain a clause prohibiting the Legisla- last evening that he received a telegraphic dispatch ture, municipal corporations, and town and county which rendered it necessary for him to take the officers from donating moneys or appropriating any next train and go home. property to any church, school, college, hospital Mr. GREELEY —I observe that we are not or asylum or other institutions under the control able to grant leaves of absence. We have scarceor influence of any religious denominations. ly a quorum here. The Chair may consider me as Which was referred to the Committee on the objecting to every leave of absence asked. Powers and Duties of the Legislature. The PRESIDENT pro te. - The Chair cannot Mr. BICKFORD presented two petitions, one consider the gentleman as objecting unless he from Francis A. Cross, and fourteen others, citi- objects on every case as it comes up. zens of Cape Vincent, Jefferson county, and one The question was then put upon granting Mr from E. Woodward Brown and George Gilbert, Endress leave of absence, and it was declared of Carthage, Jefferson county, on the same carried. subject. Mr. MATTICE - I ask leave of absence for my Which took the same reference. colleague Mr. More, who is necessarily called Mr. BELL presented the petition of Remos home on important business, until Tuesday Wells, supervisor of the town of Lyme, and fifty next. others, asking that a provision be embodied in Mr. GREELEY-I object. It is disrespectful the Constitution to preserve the right of fishing in to this Convention. Gentlemen go away, and the international waters of this State. then send a colleague here to ask leave of Which was referred to the Committee on the absence, when they have taken it already. We Preamble and Bill of Rights. need not spend our time giving them leave when Mr. WALES -I have here the petition of they have taken it. Henry Sanford, which was presented, I believe, Mr. MATTICE-I will state, in behalf of Mr. by the gentleman from Westchester [Mr. Greeley] More, that he has been here constantly since our 4th and referred to the Committee on Industrial of July adjournment, and perhaps there is no gentleInterests. I suppose it should follow the report man who has been here more constantly during the which this morning was referred to the Commit- session than Mr. More, but it is important, occasiontee on the Preamble and Bill of Rights. ally, that men should return home for the purpose The PRESIDENT pro ter. - It will take that of transacting their necessary business, and I see reference as a matter of course. no reason why this leave of absence should not Mr. REYNOLDS-I desire to ask leave of be granted to my colleague, under the circumabsence for myself for Monday and Tuesday stances. next. The question was then put on granting Mr. No objection being made, leave was granted. More leave of absence, and it was declared Mr. CHESEBRO —I desire to ask leave of carried. absence for Mr. Church until Tuesday morning. Mr. BICKFORD-Sometime ago an indefinite No objection being made, leave was granted. leave of absence was granted to Mr. James Brooks. Mr. VERPLANCK —I ask leave of absence The reason assigned was that he was under the for myself for Monday and Tuesday next. necessity of attending a session of Congress. No objection being made, leave was granted. The session of Congress has terminated. I move Mr. AXTELL -I ask leave of absence for my that that indefinite leave of absence be withdrawn colleague, Mr. Cheritree, for to-day and Monday and that he be required to attend. next. The P]RESIDENT pro tern. - The Chair will Mr. BICKFORD —I had before said that I suggest that, under the rules, that motion for the would object in all cases unless there was some present must remain on the table, because it is a reason given. I like to hear a reason given. reconsideration of a leave of absence. Merely asking leave of absence, without stating a Mr. RATHBUN - I was about to propose to reason, I want to be understood as always object- debate that question. ing to. The PRESIDENT pro tern.- It goes over The PRESIDENT pro tern. —The Chair cannot under the rule, because it is a motion to reconcompel gentlemen to give reasons. The gentle- sider. man from Jefferson [Mr. Bickford] objecting, the Mr. McDONALD -I ask leave of absence for vote of the Convention must be taken. Mr. Prindle. I will say, in his behalf, that he has Mr. KERNAN -Is Mr. Cheritree present? not been absent during the session, but was comMr. AXTELL - Mr. Cheritree desires leave pelled to go home on account of important business of absence on account of sickness in his which he could no longer neglect, and will be family. back here on Tuesday next. I think, on account The question was then put on granting Mr. of his former good conduct, he ought at least be Cheritree leave of absence, and it was declared excused for one day. carried. Mr. GREELEY - I object. Mr. KERNAN - I ask leave of absence for my The question was then put on granting Mr. friend Mr. Barto until Tuesday morning, and the Prindle leave of absence, and it was declared reason is this: he has staid here very diligently, carried. 701 Mr. MERRILL —To bring this to an end I move that all gentlemen absent without leave shall be given leave until Monday evening. Mr. GREELEY- I move a call of the roll first. The question was then put on the motion of Mr. Greeley, and it was declared lost. Mr. VERPLANCK-I hope the gentleman from Wyoming [Mr. Merrill] will withdraw his motion. It seems to me it is hardly dignified in this body to pass a resolution of that description. Gentlemen do not desire and have not asked to be excused, and it is hardly worth while for this Convention to pass upon it in this way. Mr. MERRILL-My idea was to save time by granting leave to those who have taken itwithout asking, in a lump, instead of going through the names of the fifty, or sixty, or perhaps ninety absentees. Mr. LAPHAM-The motion of the gentleman from Wyoming [Mr. Merrill] is open to this objection. I trust it will not receive the sanction of the Convention. We have now adopted a rule for adjournment, which is, that one week, which includes to-day, we shall sit until Saturday at noon and adjourn until Monday morning, and that each alternate week we shall adjourn on Friday until Monday evening. This rule of business, on motion of the gentleman from Oneida [Mr. T. W. Dwight], was adopted expressly with the view of accommodating gentlemen and enabling them to go to their respective homes and spend each alternate Saturday. There is, therefore, no excuse for any member absenting himself without the permission of the Convention. Mr. MERRILL -I withdraw my motion. Mr. COOKE - I ask leave of absence for Mr. E. Brooks, who was called away suddenly yesterday on account of some urgent matter at his home. Mr. GOULD —I was going to ask the Secretary to announce the number of gentlemen who are now absent on leave. The PRESIDENT pro ten. - About thirty, the Secretary informs the Chair. Mr. GREELEY- I object. The question was then put on granting Mr. E. Brooks leave of absence, and it was declared carried. Mr. HARDENBURGIH-I call the attention of the President to the fact that there is no quorum present. The PRESIDENT pro tem. —The Chair has not so found the fact to be. The Chair will inform the gentleman that the motion was evidently carried, and therefore there was no count of the negative. In addition. he would inform the gentleman that the Secretary has counted the number present, and there are more than eighty-one present. Mr. VAN CAMPEN presented the petition of lollis Scott, of Hinsdale, and nineteen others, against the appropriation of the public moneys to sectarian institutions. Which was referred to the Committee on the Powers and Duties of the Legislature. Mr. VAN COTT presented the petition of P. W. Kenyon and twelve others upon the same subject. Which took a like reference. Mr. MASTEN-I desire to present a communication from Francis E. Cornwell, an attorney and counselor-at-law, of Buffalo, in relation to law libraries. I hardly know what reference is proper to make of the communication,-I think, probably, the Judiciary Committee, for the reason that it proposes to tax law suits for the purpose of raising a fund to establish law libraries. The petition was referred to the Judiciary Committee. Mr. VERPLANCK-I call for a consideration of the resolution offered by me a few days since in reference to canals. The SECRETARY proceeded to read the resolution, as follows: " Resolved, That the Canal Commissioners report to this Convention the number of breaks in the Erie canal, within the last ten years, the amount paid to contractors, or amount of the same under their contracts, and the length of time that each break interfered with the navigation of the said canal." Mr. VERPLANCK -Some time since I introduced a similar resolution, addressed to the Canal Auditor. On the 17th of July he made a report to this Convention, in which he states that the. number of breaks had not been reported to the Canal Commissioner by the superintendent of repairs, and he cannot tell anything about the expenditure for the breaks, but can only give us information as to the amount they cost per year over and above the amount paid to contractors under their several contracts. The Convention will see, when we come to ascertain the capacity of the canal, it will be very important to understand and know how much the canal navigation is impeded by breaks, and therefore it is very necessary for the Convention to have this information. I will call the attention of the Convention to another fact. The Auditor has paid for repairs of breaks, over and above the amount each contractor has received under his contract for repairs, within the last ten years over $500,000. In the year 1864 he paid $11,405.77. In 1865 he paid $150,952.10. In 1866 he paid $166,168. Therefore it will be observed in 1864 the amount was only the sum of $11,000, andin 1866 it amounted to the enormous sum of $166,000. I desire to call the attention of the Convention to this fact, to show how these expenses have increased, and also to show the state of the facts about the canals. The question was put on the resolution of fir. Verplanck, and it was declared adopted. Mr. T. W. DWIGHT-I offer the following resolution: "Resolved, That the vote on the amendments now under consideration in the Committee of the Whole, shall be taken on Tuesday next at halfpast one o'clock P. M." The PRESIDENT pro tern. announced the question to be upon the adoption of the resolution of Mr. T. W. Dwight. Mr. VERPLANCK-I wish the gentleman would say Wednesday. Very many of the members of the Convention have leave of absence until Wednesday morning, and it is desirable to have a full house. The PRESIDENT pro tem. - The resolution 702 giving rise to debate, it will lie over under the that is claimed. If my memory serves me now, rule. sir, there were a great many members of the SenMr. MERRITT -I hope I may be permitted to ate under our former system of very ordinary casay that we desire, at least on Tuesday, that the pacity, although they were elected from the large question of large or small districts shall be districts. And if my memory serves me, sir, it is decided when we go into Committee of the Whole. not true that the Senate, under the former sysI shall ask that, when we go into the Committee tem, was so perfectly pure and immaculate as of the Whole, should no person desire to speak to some gentlemen seem to suppose it was. I recolthat particular point. I ask that we pass by that lect very well when the Legislature, in both its informally and take up other portions of the branches, used to come up here year after year, report to-day. grant bank charters, and appoint commissioners Mr. MIERWIN I offer the following resolu- to apportion the stock among the members of tion: the Legislature and poor politicians outside, many " Resolved, That it be referred to the Committee of them not worth a dollar, in order that they on Cities, etc., to consider the propriety of author- might sell it at a premium to the capitalists of the izing the Legislature to adopt the system of State, and thus reap the reward for their services cumulative voting in the election of aldermen in I am not going to dispute that the Senate, under cities." the former system, did contain, as a general rule, Which was referred to the Committee on more ability than under the present system; Cities. but I deny the proposition put forth by the Mr. McDONALD —I offer the following reso- committee that it was due to the fact that they lution- were elected from the larger districts instead of The PRESIDENT pro ten. -The Chair will from the single districts. No, sir, it was due to inform the gentleman that it is out of order. other causes. In the first place, it was due to the Mr. McDONALD-I give notice that I will fact that the Senate was tie highest court in the call up, on Tuesday next, the following proposi- State; to be a Senator then was to occupy a high tion: judicial position, and the place was sought for on Rule-. The Convention will, unless it shall then that account. Eminent lawyers in the State otherwise order, go each day into Committee of sought a place in the Senate in order that they the Whole, on any general or special order pend- might distinguish themselves in that high judicial ing, one hour after it convenes, unless before that position, and did distinguish themselves in that time that order of business may have been office as eminent judges, and they have left the reached. records of their eminence in the reports of the Mr. SHERMAN-I give notice that I shall judicial decisions of the State. It was this which move the following amendment to the resolution gave the principal dignity to the Senate under the of the gentleman from Ontario [Mr. McDonald]: former system; and unless you confer the same Rule -. It shall be in order at the expiration of power on the Senate, you cannot restore it to that one hour after the reading of the Journal, to dignity under any system that you can adopt. Then move that the Convention go into Committee of again, the longer term of office gave them an advanthe Whole on the business committed to it; pro- tage over the Senate under the present system. Exvided the appropriate order of business be not perience is valuable in legislation as well as in anysooner reached. thing else. I had the honor to be a member of Which was ordered to lie on the table under the first Senate which was convened under the the rule. present Constitution, and I recollect very well that The Convention then resolved itself into the a good many bills passed the ordeal, and got Committee of the Whole, on the report of the through at the first session of that Senate which, Committee on the Legislature, its Organization, by no means, could have got through at the etc., Mr. ARCHER, of Wayne, in the chair. second session after the experience of a year, Mr. FULLER-I desire to submit a few consid- especially bills for the payment of claims against erations to the committee upon the pending ques- the State. A good many of that class were tion. I desire to say in advance, that I have the passed which would not have been enterhighest respect for the Committee upon the Organi- tained at all at the second session of the Senate. zation of the Legislature, for the members of that The third house was too sharp for us -if I may committee and their opinions individually and col- be allowed the expression - in our greenness, lectively, and I regret exceedingly that I am corn- when we first came together. I say experience is pelled to differ from their report. I am opposed. valuable in legislation as well as everywhere else, sir, to this change from the single to the larger and that an experience of three or four years in the districts. It is a very great and sweeping change, business of a Senator adds to the qualifications for and it should not be adopted unless the reasons that office. A knowledge of the business is acfor it are very strong and conclusive. It should quired during that time, and of the history of the not be made upon any doubtful grounds. What legislation of the State. Men become as it were are the principal reasons that are urged in its fa- experts by this experience, and it is wrong to vor? Why they say that the Senate under the suppose that men can become legislators withformer Constitution was elected by large districts, out experience all at once, any more than they can and that we had then the advantage of men of become so qualified for any other branch of more eminence and ability in the Senate than we business. What was it, sir, that gave to the have had under the single district system. South its preponderance in the national legis. Sir, I am disposed to grant that to lature before the war? It was the fact that they some extent, but not to the. full extent kept their men in their places until they became 703 educated, until they understood all the details of may ordinarily be expected to give a democraitc legislative duty, until they became skillful and member to the Senate, but if you merge it in tile expert in that kind of business, while we in the eighth judicial district, the local majority there will North were in the habitof often changing our men, be overborne and wiped out by the larger of sending green and new men there, who were majority on the other side in the district, and thus for that reason no match for those who came from they will lose the benefit of representation in the the other quarter. The same is true of the Senate Senate, and the minority in that part of the State of this State. If you want to give to it a conser- will lose the benefit of that representation. I do vative character, and give to it more eminence and not believe it will be possible to so district knowledge of legislation, you must give your the State as to avoid this. You will have to Senators a longer term of office, and in that way wipe out these local majorities on the one side or you will accomplish it, so far as it can be done. the other, and it will be impossible to make any It will add nothing to its ability or to the dignity distribution of districts which willbe satisfactory. of the Senate if you increase the size of the dis- This is a strong objection to this system, and one tricts. That is not the difficulty now, it is not which it is impossible to overcome. I can illusthat our Senators come from small districts. The trate it again in my own county. There we have difficulty is to get men of proper qualifications and a republican majority of some twelve or fifteen sufficient ability and experience to accept the hundred ordinarily, but it is distributed unequally office. The truth is, that men of eminence in the over the county, and frequently we send one professions, or eminent in other pursuits of democratic representative from that county. The life, cannot ordinarily be induced to take a minority therefore is represented. Well, now, if nomination to the Senate of this State. you adopt the system of representation by counThey can reap richer rewards and greater ties, the minority will cease to be represented distinction in other fields of labor. You will. there; and I think that one principal reason why not overcome this difficulty by enlarging your the Convention of 1848 laid aside the large disdistricts. I know not how it is in other districts, trict system, and resorted to the small district sysbut in my own the office of Senator for several ten was, that they might give the local majorities years past has frequently gone a begging among an opportunity correctly to represent the minority that class of men who are best qualified to fill it. in the Senate. My time is limited, Mr. Chairman, They cannot ordinarily be induced to accept a and having called attention to this point, I will not nomination for it, and you will hold out no great- dwell upon it any longer. I am in favor of the er inducement to them by enlarging the districts. principle of the proposition of the gentleman They will not accept the nomination any sooner from Niagara [Mr. Flagler]. I think that we from a large district than they will from a small should provide for giving a larger representation one, and the only way you can overcome this to the city of New York, and perhaps for that difficulty is by adding to the dignity and eminence purpose it would be better to adopt the number of of the office. We cannot substantially increase thirty-six than thirty-two. I think we should not the power of the Senate, and I do not understand trouble ourselves with districting the State for the that there is any proposititon before this Conven- purpose of representation. I think that duty tion to do so. We cannot make it, as it was belongs appropriately to the Legislature. I think before, the highest court of the State; we cannot we should not spend our time here in descending make a seat in it a high judicial position and to these details, but that we should leave it to the desirable on that account. The only additional next Legislature to district the State, after having dignity we can give to it is by giving more perma- provided the number of districts into which it nence to the office and an increase of the term, and should be divided, and I think they will do it beta larger experience, and thus a better qualification ter than we can. I think it should be divided into for the discharge of its duties on the part of mem- single districts for the reasons I have assigned, bers. If we do this, we will secure all we can and I think we shall gain nothing by dividing it gain by a resort to the large district system. into the larger districts. I think we shall gain There is great difficulty in dividing the State nothing in the integrity or in the capacity into large districts. I have no doubt the or character of your Senators. I think you will committee have discharged their duty in all gain what you desire, or at any rate all that you faithfulness, with integrity and to the best of can gain in that direction, by increasing the term their ability; but the difficulty lies here: that of office of the Senators, and by providing that when you come to divide the State into large one-third or one-fourth of the number shall go districts, you must necessarily sink local ma- out of office, and a corresponding number be jorities in the smaller districts in the larger elected to fill their places every year. In this way majorities the other way, in the large districts. you will make it a conservative body; in this Take the city of Albany for instance. It has now way you will make it what you desire to have it, a representative. The democratic party are in the a check upon the hasty and inconsiderate legislaminority in this State, but they have a represen- tion of the other House. The proposition of the tative from the county of Albany in the Senate, gentleman from Cortland [Mr. Ballard] does not to represent that minority; but if you put that in all respects meet my approbation. So far as it county in the larger districts, as is proposed to be is a test of the single district system as done, you sink that majority, and wipe it out, and against the large district system I am in the minority ceases to be represented here; and favor of it; and when the time shall come to vote this difficulty will always meet you in the attempt on it, I hope the gentleman will consent to a divito divide the State into larger districts. Take the sion of his proposition, and let us take the quoscounty of Erie, that is a democratic county and tion upon the first portion of it first. 704 Mr. LEE -I have hitherto contented myself [Mr. Ballard], and also by the amendment proto remain in my seat and to refrain from partici- posed to be offered by the gentleman from Niagara pating in the debates that have occurred in this [Mr. Flagler]. I would agree with the committee body on the various propositions that have been so far as relates to the length of the term of office for submitted to it, satisfying myself to express my Senators. I think that experience goes to show that views upon these various propositions by the the benefit to be derived from a prolonged period of votes which I have given. But, sir, in view of service, in a legislative capacity, eminently fits the the report of the majority of the Committee upon individual for a better performance of his duty, the Organization of the Legislature, for whom, and to that extent I concur in the report of the I may here say, I cherish feelings of respect, both majority of the committee. I believe, sir, that toward the committee as a body and toward it we should establish the principle upon which the individually; yet in relation at least to one branch State should be divided, either determining that it of the report I very decidedly disagree. Now, shall be divided by large or by small districts, Mr. Chairman, it may be well to stop for a mo- and then hand the subject over to the inment and consider the object for which we are coming Legislature to make an apportionment. assembled here. It is not, as I understand it, to We shall not have the time, if we have the abilmake anew Constitution, but to revise and amend ity, requisite to make such a division as will our present Constitution in those particulars in prove satisfactory, and enable us to remedy the which it has been found to be unsatisfactory to real difficulties that should be rectified. As to the great body of the people, and unequal to'per- whether large districts or small districts furnish form its functions as desired. Now, sir, with better members is not material, nor has it been respect to a change of the senatorial dis-shown. It has been assumed but has not been tricts, so far as I know there has been proved, nor can it be proved. It may have hapno complaint coming up from the body pened that the senatorial body from 1821 to 1846 of the people. The press has been substan- possessed a larger measure of talent and integrity tially silent. We have no petitions on file asking than the senatorial body from 1846 to 1867, but this Convention to change the senatorial district it proved nothing if it be true, no more than system, and I may state here, what every member would be proven if it should be true that the of this Convention knows, that if the change con- senatorial body from 1846 to 1867 possessed templated and proposed by the committee should superior talent and superior integrity. But, sir, be adopted, we only return to the exploded system I am in favor of single districts, for the reason that prevailed from 1821 to 1846, concerning that throughout the State, there are varied interwhich there was very grave complaint, so much ests that may be said to be local, that pertain to so that the Convention of 1846, entered upon the certain localities that can be more surely, revision of the Constitution in that respect, and the more faithfully and better, represented in the submitted the system that now prevails, concern- Senate by gentlemen representing separate dising which there has been no complaint, with which tricts than if representing by large districts. Now, the people seem to be satisfied, and I hold, sir, sir, the county of Oswego, which I in part repreit is better in all such matters to let well enough sent, located on the north-western frontier of the alone, and to address ourselves to the remedying State, sets in on the border of Lake Ontario like of those defects in the Constitution that have been a pocket, isolated, embracing the Oswego river found to exist. One of the requisitions of the peo- and harbor. It really possesses no intimate relaple is that manhood suffrage should be recognized tions with any other district in point of interest; by the organic law of the State. The Convention, so that if the system of large districts prevail, a in obedience to public sentiment in that regard, has gentleman located in Montgomery county or in taken action. There have been numerous and Herkimer county, or in Lewis county, has no grave complaints made touching the judiciary more interest in common with the interests of system. Now let us, when it comes in order, go Oswego county than a gentleman who should be to work to remove the obstacles which clog and elected from Chautauqua county or Suffolk county. embarrass the operations of the judicial machinery. I hold that in settling this question we should There are complaints touching the management endeavor to bring the representation in the Legisof the canals of our State. When that question lature to truly represent, so far as possible, the comes up in order, let us address ourselves to various interests of the State. It follows, necesremedying those difficulties. Complaints, too, sarily, that a man selected from the city of Oswehave been made in relation to the management of go, identified in interest, familiar, growing out of our State penitentiaries. When that comes up let a life-long acquaintance with the business interests us take hold, grapple with that question, and all of the city, and the commerce of the port, should other questions that need to be rectified; but as be better qualified and feel more interest in faithtouching this question of senatorial districts, I fully looking after the interests of that locality, regard it as one concerning which we may as- not in conflict or in variance with other interests sume that the people of the State are satisfied, of the State, but in harmony with them; he could both parties, and better satisfied than they will discharge his duty more effectively, and hence to be after we may have spent three weeks that extent he is a better representative than one (the length of time we spent on the selected from remote portions of the State, from suffrage question) in attempting to change it. localities having no identity of interest. And Now, sir, from what has been already said, it may again, sir, I hold that the people and their reprebe inferred that I am in favor of the present sys- sentatives in a legislative capacity should be held tem as it now exists, and substantially as embraced as close together as possible. Representatives in the proposition of the gentleman from Cortland must, in the very nature of the case, be acquainted 705 with the wants and the necessities of the localities opinions on the Convention, but have contented that they represent, in order properly to discharge myself to be governed by the remarks of others, their duty. And who is better qualified, who is and to take their arguments, when they have better prepared, to determine and select than those suited me, as if made by myself, and unless some whose interests are involved? If gentlemen point has not been discussed, which I deem selected thus from the small districts, who are important, I should have contented myself with known to the people, fail to meet the reasonable sitting still and merely giving my vote; but there expectations of their constituents, they are dropped are some points in this question that have not and new men are put in their places, and they have been presented, and which occur to me as importno just cause to complain against any one but them- ant to be presented to this committee, although the selves. But if, on the other hand, they make, as question has been ably argued, and nearly every I doubt not they ordinarily would, wise and judi- view that was possible has been taken of it. I have cious selections, they can return them as long and been very much pleased with the good temper and as often as they please. I think, sir, that this candor with which it has been discussed. I think Convention will act wisely if, when it shall have from the remarks made by the various gentlemen settled the principle upon which this State shall who have spoken on this subject that there is a be districted, it shall hand that work over to be sincere desire on the part of this committee to done by the succeeding Legislature. I will only arrive at the best mode of choosing the Legislaadd, sir, that I am entirely satisfied, and I believe ture of this State. I do not attribute to any who the people in my district will be satisfied, without have spoken any partisan purposes. I think it is making any increase in the number of Senators. the last question out of which gentlemen should I do not think they would seriously object if it propose to make party capital. The districting was deemed necessary to enlarge the number of a State is a very difficult question; and I am moderately, but still I think they would be satis- of the opinion, Mr. Chairman, the duty of definfied with the present number. But I think, sir, ing the boundaries of the several senatorial and that they would decidedly prefer the single district assembly districts, and of apportioning the numsystem for many reasons, among which would be ber of members to each district, should not be found some that I have stated, and which I shall performed by this Convention. This matter may suggest, when it is in order, if it should become in be wisely left to the Legislature. That body is as order, as an amendment either to the proposition fully competent to do that work as this Convention. of the gentleman from Cortland [Mr. Ballard] or Then, again, this duty of districting the State does to the proposition contemplated to be offered by not necessarily devolve on this Convention. Howthe gentleman from Niagara [Mr. Flagler] touching ever wisely we might constitute these districts the manner of the outgoing members, assuming they will of necessity be altered in seven or ten that the single district system shall be adopted, years at most, we cannot by any division make assuming that there shall be thirty-two Senators, districts that will be permanent during the continnumbering from one to thirty-two inclusive, and uance of the Constitution. Therefore it should be that at the end of the first year those out- left to the Legislature to make the first apportiongoing should represent the second, fourth, mentof Senators and Assemblymen under this eighth, twelfth, sixteenth, twentieth, twenty- Constitution, as we must of necessity provide, in fourth and twenty-eighth. The second year this article, that that body shall make a like the third, seventh, eleventh, fifteenth, nine- apportionment after the census of 1875 shall teenth, twenty-third, twenty-seventh, and thirty- have been taken. Leave the subject to the first. The third year the sixth, tenth, Legislature, and we will have relieved the fourteenth, eighteenth, twenty-second, twenty- Convention of one of the most difficult sixth, and thirtieth. The fourth year the fifth, questions that will come before us. Now, sir, if ninth, thirteenth, seventeenth, twenty-first, we look for a few minutes at the duties of the twenty-fifth, and twenty-ninth. The reason for Legislature of the State, we may come to some these changes from the number indicated by the just conclusion in regard to how it should be corngentleman from Niagara [Mr. Flagler] will be posed. In providing for the law-making of the apparent to every member. It is so that there State, this Convention, in my opinion, should conwill be a relative number outgoing and incoming sider well the powers and duties and functions of all over the State each year instead of being con- that branch of the State government. Under all fined to only one-fourth part of the State. civilized governments the legislative body is Mr. MERRITT - As the committee is not very divided into two separate and distinct branches, full, and there does not seem to be a very great each possessing separate and distinct powers, desire to discuss the question at large, I move modes of election, tenure of office, and rules for that we pass over the first section and proceed to conducting their deliberations. Without going consider the second section. into an examination of the composition of the Mr. BELL -I object. Let the discussion go British Parliament or other monarchical governon. It is not quite fair, after the gentleman has ments, showing the great difference which exists spoken two or three times on the subject, to cut in the composition of the House of Lords and the off debate from those who may wish to speak on House of Commons, or of consuming the time of this particular question. this Convention by a reference to the ancient Mr. MERRITT-If any gentleman desires to republics of Greece and Rome, I will call your speak I withdraw my motion. attention to the legislative branch of our own Mr. BELL - I wish to submit a few remarks national government. There we will find amodel on this subject of the election and tenure of office which will be safe for us t follow so far as the same of the Senate. I have not, thus far, intruded my may be applicable to the case. It will be seen 89 706 that each State is entitled to two Senators to be chosen by the respective Legislatures thereof for a term of six years, while the members of the House of Representatives are apportioned among the several States according to population, and elected by the people for a term of two years. I will read from the Constitution of the United States: ARTICLE I. SEc. 1. All legislative powers herein granted shall be vested in a Congress of the United States, which shall consist of a Senate and House of Representatives. ~ 2. The House of Representatives shall be composed of members chosen every second year by the people of the several States, and the electors in each State shall have the qualifications requisite for electors of the most numerous branch of the State Legislature. No person shall be a representative who shall not have attained to the age of twenty-five years, and been seven years a citizen of the United States. The fifth subdivision provides that the House of Representatives shall choose their own speaker and other officers, and shall have the sole power of impeachment. So we see the House of Representatives of the United States is the popular branch of the government. And now, sir, in regard to the composition of the United States Senate, and the tenure of office, and qualifications of the Senators-Section three of the same article provides as follows: " The Senate of the United States shall be composed of two Senators from each State chosen by the Legislature thereof, for six years, and each Senator shall have one vote. Immediately after they shall be assembled in consequence of the first election, they shall be divided as equally as may be into three classes. The seats of the Senators of the first class shall be vacated at the expiration of the second year, of the second class at expiration of the fourth year" - and so on through the section, showing precisely the length of the term of every representative in office. The third subdivision provides: " No person shall be a Senator who shall not have attained the age of thirty-five years." From which it will be seen that it not only requires a different mode of election, but it requires that they shall have attained a different age for members-Representatives twenty-five years and Senators thirty-five years. " The Vice-President of the United States shall be President of the Senate, but shall have no vote, unless they be equally divided." Entirely different in this regard from the House of Representatives. They choose a presiding officer from their own number. The Senate is presided over by the Vice-President of the United States. The Senate shall choose their other officers, and also a president pro tempore, in the absence of the Vice-President, or when he shall exercise the office of President of the United States." So we see that the president pro tern. can in certain events become President of the United States. From these quotations it is plain that the two houses of Congress represent distinct, and in many important respects, different and independent constituencies. The members of the Tower House being elected from small districts by the people, emphatically represent the people. By its composition it is designed to be the popular branch of our government. While on the other hand, from the mode of election, qualifications, and tenure of office, it is equally evident that the Senate is designed to be the conservative branch, and represent the States in their sovereign capacity without regard to the number of their inhabitants, wealth or territorial extension. It will also be observed that each State, however small, is entitled to two Senators in the Senate of the United States, and no State, however large, in territory, wealth or population, shall have more than two Senators. Now, if we approve of this distribution of power and responsibility in the legislative branch of our national government and conclude that there is wisdom in this provision of the Constitution which our fathers ordained and established we will follow their example so far as possible. The analogy will require us to provide for a Senate that shall represent a different constituency from that uf the Assembly. We should not provide for establishing Senate districts that shall represent precisely the same population, no more than they shall represent precisely the same territory or wealth as the gentleman from Rockland [Mr Conger] claimed they should. The Legislature of this State should be so constituted, that the Senate shall, in an important sense, represent the entire State. When you have accomplished this object you have accomplished what is designed in our form of government. Now, let me inquire will the single Senate district system proposed by the amendment of my friend from Cortland answer this purpose? It simply represents one or at most two or three counties. In my opinion it will not. Small districts tend to localize the views and actions of Senators. Let a gentleman be elected to the Senate from Oswego county, as my friend, Mr. Lee, has supposed. He will feel it incumbent upon him to represent the peculiar local interests of Oswego. In some respects he might neglect the interests of other portions of the State. Now, I do not say this from theory, I state it from experience, that where the district is small, members usually conclude that their especial duties are to represent that small constituency. Large districts will, in this regard, tend to enlarge the views of the Senators. This Convention should provide for a Senate, to be composed of members who, from tne nature of their constituency, will be required to take broad and extended views of the entire State; to look upon the different measures brought before that body as measures not confined to their immediate constituency, but how will they affect the entire State. How many instances of this kind have I seen in the Senate of this State, and heard Senators say in regard to measures that are really intended for the entire State, "This measure affects my constituency unfavorably, therefore I cannot go it." The practical result of the small district system has a direct tendency to narrow down the views and scope of action of your Senators to the bounds of the territory they represent. Mr. LEE-I would inquire whether the gentle 707 man would not enlarge the scope of usefulness of cutive terms I think have been but three; the members of the Senate if they should be putting all those together who served more elected all over the State. than one term we have about thirty-two. Mr. BELL-I do not think that would be a very Only thirty-two Senators out of the entire bad provision. I am of the opinion inmany respects number have served more than one term that plan would possess advantages over the during the last twenty years. This examination other system. Fortunately we are not confined shows that good men have not uniformly been to either extreme. But I would ask the gentle- returned, and I assume we have had as good man if he would elect Senators of the United men under this Constitution as we had under the States as the President and Vice-President is others. I have no charge to make in regard to now elected? I only argue that large districts corrupt practices; I do not personally know that have the tendency to enlarge the views of any exist. I have frequently heard of the venality gentlemen and enable Senators to take a broader of public men, of canal frauds, of legislative corand more extensive view of the interests ruption. There are times when the atmosphere of the entire State. Again, in regard to the of Albany is filled with such reports. The genterm of office. I believe, so far as I can gather tieman from New York [Mr. Opdyke] may show from the argument thus far presented, that the some irregularity in regard to members of the majority of this committee, at least, is in favor of Legislature; but I cannot put my finger on any extending the term of office. This I think a very one and say, that man has been paid for his vote. important end to be gained. But the amendment I take it for granted we can get as good men of the gentleman from Cortland [Mr. Ballard] not under one system as under the other. It is a only limits the senatorial districts to small ones, matter of expediency as to which system will but does not, if I understood the amendment as result in the best and highest good to the State. read, provide for extending the term of office. This, I take it, is the object each one of us has in Mr. BALLARD -I refrain in my amendment view. There is probably no position in the from saying anything in regard to the tenure of State where experience is more invaluable to a office. My amendment was directed to districts, proper discharge of duties than that of Senator. and to the territories. That was all. When a man who is unaccustomed to the Mr. BELL-This limited term of office, Mr. rules and usages of the Senate, however well Chairman, is one of the greatest objections, in my he may be informed on other subjects, however mind, that can be presented to the amendment of eminent he may be as a lawyer, or in any other the gentleman from Cortland. The term of profession, comes into the Senate for the office should be extended, and I would prefer first session his talent and his influence are nearly four years or even a longer term, that we worthless, he cannot make himself useful; he might get a uniform, steady, conservative Senate- cannot discharge the duties of a Senator to his a Senate that would understand the true policy own satisfaction, or for the benefit of his constituof the State, and pursue it uniformly and con- ents. When the committees are made up, the list tinuously. Why, sir, the single district system is looked over, and he being a new member with short terms has operated very injuriously in is put at the tail end of some unimportant commany regards to the interests of' this State. I mittee. IHe has no opportunity to benefit the will mention one particular in which short terms State nor distinguish himself. But when he shall and new Senates operate injuriously-in the mat- have had the experience of one or two years he is ter of claims against the State. A complete then prepared to enter upon the duties of subsesystem of swindling has been going on in this busi- quent sessions to his own satisfaction, and to the ness. Suppose that one Senate rejects those protection of the interests of the State. bogus claims. The parties need only wait two Here the gavel fell and the gentleman resumed years before they can present them to an entirely his seat. new Senate, or nearly new. Claim agents have Mr. W. C. BROWN —I am loth to occupy the reduced this to a system. Without doubt they will time of the Convention after so much discussion oppose a continuous Senate wherein three-fourths has been had on this subject, and should not do so of the members hold over. Claims are frequently were it not that there are one or two thoughts revived and brought up in some other shape, by connected with the subject which will influence to an assignment perhaps, brought before a new some extent my vote, which I have not yet heard Senate, and in many instances have been allowed. mentioned on this floor. I think, Mr. Chairman, I know of numerous instances of this kind where that we are not deducing the most wise conclu. if such claims had been passed the State would sions from the experience of the past, and I wish have been swindled out of hundreds of thousands to call the attention of the committee for a few of dollars. Claims of that kind have been pre- moments to the consideration of that thought. sented to the Senate for the second and third time. From the year 1778 to the year 1822 the State of If gentlemen will take the pains to examine the New York was divided into four senatorial disCivil List they will ascertain that within the past tricts. That arrangement proved entirely unsat. twenty years very few Senators have ever been isfactory to the people of the State, and unwisein returned. I think that those who have served the opinion of the Legislature. Accordingly, the two continuous terms have been only about Constitutional Convention of 1821 increased the twenty-six- only about twenty-six Senators number of senatorial districts to eight. That also re-elected for twenty years under the short proved, in the judgment of the people, and in the term system. For the twenty years those who judgment of the statesmen of the State, to be ah served two terms, not consecutive terms number unwise measure. It did not work well; it gave three or four; those who have served three conse- rise, as some gentlemen have said on this floor, to 708 the Albany regency, and the Senators were too far removed from their constituents. A reform was demanded; and the Constitutional Convention of 1846 assembled under a great pressure to have the number of senatorial districts increased. Under that pressure they went to the other extreme, and increased the senatorial districts from eight to thirty-two. And now we are told, and I believe it is true, that the people are dissatisfied with that, and think that the districts are too small and too many. Let me call the attention of the committee to the point that we should profit by this experience, and not go back and renew the fault that was committed by the Convention of 1821, any more than to the evil which existed in the Constitution prior to 1821, which was then found so wrong. I think this experience admonishes us to take a medium course between what was provided for by the Constitution of 1821, and what was provided for by the Constitution of 1846, which would lead me to the conclusion that I should not favor the report of the committee on this subject, neither could I adopt the plan which is now under discussion. The plan of the gentleman from Westchester [Mr. Greeley] would come nearer to what I think experience would teach us to adopt, than either of the others. It is. however, In my judgment, liable to some objections, but which could be easily corrected. I think the plan of repeated voting is subject to two objections. In the first place, it will not readily be understood by the people; in the second place if I rightly understand it, it may produce this effect, that in a district where one party has a good working majority, the minority may possibly elect two Senators and the majority only one. I have not ciphered it out very closely, but it seems to me that result might occur by the majority having for one of their candidates a very popular man for whom many of his party would repeat their vote to an unnecessary extent and so waste their votes. The minority, by concentrating their votes upon two candidates in a wise manner, could elect their two to only one of the majority. But still I think the principle of the representation of minorities is right. If a community is composed of 100,000 voters, and 55,000 are of one stripe and 45,000 of another, the 45,000 should have some voice in the administration of the government. I think the objections which are made to the details of the plan of the honorable gentleman from Westchester [Mr. Greeley] may be obviated, if we adopt his proposal of fifteen districts with three Senators in each district, by not allowing any one to vote for more than two Senators; the majority will then elect two and the minority one. This is a simple plan; it is a plan well known to our people; they are accustomed to it; they apply it in the case of inspectors of elections; in the election of justices of sessions; they apply it in some municipalities in the election of boards of trustees; and wherever it has been applied it has given very general satisfaction. Mr. VERPLANCK - We have been some time In discussing this question, I rise therefore, not to debate the subject but to make a motion. From the remarks of the gentleman who has just spoken it is apparent that many other amend ments will be made, some of them of the very highest importance, and it is due to the members of this committee that they have an opportunity in committee to move these amendments. WA have been some two days discussing the pending amendment and with a view to allow other amendments to be made, I move that the motion be taken upon the amendment of the gentleman from Cortland [Mr. Ballard]. Mr. ALVORD - I rise to a point of order - that no such resolution can be entertained in the Committee of the Whole. The CHAIRMAN —The Chair decides the point of order well taken. Mr. M. H. LAWRENCE- I do not rise for the purpose of debating this question or making a speech; for should I do so I fear it would be only a repetition of what has been already said. But I do feel that I should not be discharging my duties to my constituents properly unless I uttered my protest against the report of the majority of the committee, and expressed the wish and desire to be able to vote for the amendment, as offered by the gentleman from Cortland [Mr. Ballard]. There is no demand on the part of the people of this State for this great change. I believe it is one of the crowning excellencies of the Constitution of 1846 that it did establish the present senatorial district system. If we had any petitions presented to this Convention for this proposed change - if a single petition has been presented in this chamberI have not had the fortune to hear it. If conventions have been held throughout this State, or public meetings of the people expressive of grievance in this matter have been held, I have not heard from them. Why, Mr. Chairman, it does seem to me that the committee have mistaken the spirit of the times when they proposed a project of this kind. And I differ very much from the gentleman on my right, who told us the other day, in speaking of this subject, that the people would return to the old system with rejoicing. Mr. Chairman, the people of this State would spurn a return to that system. I believe the supreme power rests with the people, and it looks to me as if it was an attempt to take that power away from the people. Gentlemen tell us we should have increased ability and more purity in our Senate. Is that so? I deny it in toto. In an argument used in this chamber last winter, when they were discussing how delegates should be elected to this Convention, they resorted to the senatorial plan by way of electing them, as it was in opposition to the plan adopted in 1846, of electing by assembly districts. I am satisfied that the system adopted by the Legislature authorizing this Convention to be elected by senate districts was entirely out of favor with the people. It was decidedly unpopular with the people, and as a proof of that I refer to the fact that in its operation it was simply a nullity. Did you elect the best men in this State on account of having a senatorial system? Did you select on that principle a senatorial representation? My observation leads me to say that the assembly district system was rigidly adhered to in the election of delegates to this Convention. Whenever there was a senatorial election to be had, what 709 was the operation? Here is the determination on adopted, it will tend to destroy all personal interthe part of the people, and a rebuke to the plan of eat in the election of Senators, and work a great having senatorial districts. Why, delegates were evil. And if, sir, the members of this Convention elected from each of the assembly districts. They have inconsiderately made up their minds that met in senatorial convention, and so strongly were these senatorial districts are best, I hope and trust these delegates imbued with the idea that each sir, they will not, from mere pride of opinion district must elect for itself that they said to the adhere to this position, which I realy believe is senatorial convention: "Here, in this county, we not in accordance with the public opinion of the have agreed in the convention for such a man." people of this State. 'Very well; that shall be your man." The other Mr. S. TOWNSEND -I am in favor of the delegates said that they agreed upon such a man, proposition of the gentleman from Cortland [Mr. and acknowledged that the system of electing by Ballard], and still more in favor of the idea of the districts was the true one. And so far as my ob- gentleman from Niagara [Mr. Flagler], because I servation extends that was literally carried out. think it will lead to a better distribution of disThe very creation of this Convention is proof of tricts. But I hope the Convention will decide in its simple operation, and that the senatorial system favor of the proposition of leaving the distribution does not meet the expectations of the people. to the Legislature; we shall have the advantage of Now, I must say that I was greatly amused when a better census than it is admitted on all hands I heard the distinguished and venerable gentleman we now have. The erroneous census of 1865 from Rensselaer [Mr. D. L. Seymour] explain the should weigh well in the consideration of this splendid condition of things prior to the Convention Convention in favor of this idea, that will pass of 1846. He told us in that day they were all like the whole matter of distinctions as to populagrave and dignified Roman Senators. In his tions and districts over to the Legislature. The language, I think he said, each one of them was question, however, whether Senators shall be fit to be the Executive of the State. Well, now, elected by large districts, and to what extent that I do not pretend to be greatly skilled in political body should be constituted in point of numbers, matters, neither are my political recollections is one properly before this Convention. The very vivid; but on looking back to that period single district system is much commended by I have heard of the " Albany regency," so called, the gentlemen on this floor, as adopted by the I have heard of corruption within these halls on Convention of 1846, placing the delegate more account of creating bank charters. Gentlemen immediately under the control of his constituents. may say they who have lived through these That is a very great and perhaps controlling adperiods have enjoyed the glories and reveled in vantage in the minds of many. Tile advantage the spoils that then surrounded the dominant which might be gained to the State by a longer party, if you please; but that glory is departed, probation of any gentleman in the Senate is enit is no more. It is one of the infirmities per- tirely lost by the brevity of their present terms haps of old age to look back to the period of our of office. I would be inclined to favor the extenearly successes as a more glorious era, throwing sion of the term of office for Senators to four more roseate colors around our condition when we years. The advantages of this system were well were more prosperous - at least politically. It illustrated by one of the gentlemen up this is only natural and proper that we should look morning. The able gentleman from Oneida [Mr. back to those days as being better than all other Kernan] in speaking on this subject, I believe, days. Since that period there has been nothing used the word "revisory" in reference to the but the want of progress according to these duties of the Senate-and we heard the intimagentleman. I claim, with the Convention tion from him that he would support a diminuof 1846, that this change was the noblest tion of that body. The Council of Revision part of their work. There are gentlemen in was an excellent provision that existed this Convention to-day who were members of that down to 1821. If we look at the statute Convention of 1846, and they know very well books of 2,000 pages, which we had last year we that there was a universal desire for the change. will find 1,000 laws that were not within reach Why desire a change if you had such excellent of scarcely any individual on this floor, or of any Senators? Why, if the people were satisfied, and individual in the State although six months have the system worked well, was there a clamor for elapsed since they were passed. Certainly such a different system? It is, I claim, an indication a diarrhea of laws was entirely unnecessary. It that such a system did not work well. I claim will be found by consulting the records we have that since 1846 this State has prospered as no before us, that we have gone on increasing the State ever prospered; I claim, sir, and if I had number of laws from time to time. In the days the records I would show it, that each Senate of creditable legislation previous to 1846 one that has been elected since in this State would cor- hundred to two hundred was the average number pare favorably with any previous Senate. No, of acts. After that period, as I understand from sir; I assure this Convention that any attempt on gentlemen who were then in the Legislature, but their part to deprive the people of the election of very few laws were passed for a year or two, but their Senators will be rebuked by them. I again for some cause or other (I few improper influence) tell you that now at this time the people are we have gone on increasing our laws, until last amazed at a project of this character. They look year they culminate to the number named, and upon it as a kind of distrust of their ability for self were passed in most cases without due revision or government. The great trouble in these times is necessity. A board of that character which proa this, that the people are too negligent of their politi- perly should constitute a committee or sectioa of cal 4uties and if this system of large distriets is the Senate, would undoubtedly have a good effect. 710 Again a council of that nature would be a very proper body to assist the Governor in his oppressive duties of examining the numerous applications for pardon. Under our present system I believe the applications amount to three a day. All of us can well understand that it is impossible to properly consider applications for pardon at that rate, and give the requisite attention to other subjects. I throw out the idea that a revising board would help the Executive in this respect. I hope some persons who have charge of prison matters will endeavor to incorporate such a provision in our amendments. I meant to say in the beginning, that I think in our proceedings we are placing the "cart before the horse." We are now deciding as to how we will constitute the Legislature. We all very well know that there is an anxious desire on the part of our constituents that many of the functions that have been exercised by the Legislature during the last twenty years should be devolved upon our boards of supervisors, and boards of town officers. I listened with a great deal of admiration and satisfaction to the eulogium that was justly paid by the gentleman on my right from Chenango [Mr. Prindle] last evening, upon the character of those boards. It was fortunately, or unfortunately, my privilege, although never having the honor to sit in either of these boards, to come into immediate contact with them during a very trying period, when we were filling our quotas in the recent war; and I must say I met gentlemen on these boards who were, in my estimation, fully competent to sit in either branch of the Legislature. I would, therefore, suggest, that until we know what is the intention of the majority of the Convention with reference to those additional powers which it has been suggested should be conferred upon various boards in municipal governments we can form no correct idea of the character of the legislation that must devolve on the higherbodies. We have very properly in the first instance constituted our electoral body, diving deep down in this instance, I might say almost to the carboniferous strata. I listened with interest to the debates on that subject. I wish the gentleman from Oneida [Mr. T. W. Dwight] had given me some ideas illustrating the result of his conclusions as to the investigations of Livingstone the most recent and thorough investigator of African character in its normal state. But this subject is not exactly in'order, and I will not dilate further. To return, I would then carry this idea out a little further; I would go down to the eleven thousand school-districts in this State which often have many hundred thousands, nay millions, of dollars under care of their legislative board for educational purposes. In the case of the board of town officers I believe the Convention of 1846 did order, so far as the word " may " implied-and they were told by the legal gentlemen of the day the word t may" should have the effect of the word " shall"they did order that such legislation should devolve upon the board of supervisors as was deemed appropriate. But so far from deeming it appropriate to confer that additional power they have, on the contrary, in many portions of the State been deprived of their just rights of legislation and administration. I ill not dilate further than to mention what has been very pointedly alluded to by the gentlemen from Richmond and Rockland [Messrs. Brooks and Conger] in the plan of the majority of the committee with reference to its disproportionate ap. portionment of some portions of the State. Without going into the minutiae of different districts, I will mention that in the district now proposed to include this I in part represent on this floor, even under the present erroneous census they have allowed but one Senator for 135,425 inhab. itants, whilst, as I figure out the proper ratio throughout the State for the district, should be but 115,000, showing there was some 20,000 for each Senator, or 80,000 in excess in that district to be thus disfranchised. But this idea was so fully illustrated and so well put by my colleague from Richmond [Mr. E. Brooks] that I need not dilate on that subject. Again, as to the extent or length of legislative districts, suppose you should adopt the plan of the Legislature of selecting by counties, my revered friend from Suffolk [Mr. Strong] will tell you he will concur with me that the possibility might arise under that arrangement of a delegate being removed a hundred miles in his own county from his constituents. I trust the Convention will thoroughly review that portion of the report. Mr. WAKEMAN —Sir, when I came to this Convention, if I had been called upon to give my vote, I should have voted in favor of the large district system; and if I had been on the committee that made this report, I should have joined them most heartily in the report they have made. I have listened with some attention to what has been said here during the debate on this question, and I am satisfied from what I have heard that the majority report will encounter considerable opposition from the people of this State in certain localities. For myself, I believe that we should have a Senate more stable and abler, by reason of the organization being in larger districts. I believe that men of experience who are known throughout the district would be more likely to be put in nomination than men of particular localities who were not known even to their localities. I have believed that the organization of our judiciary at the present time, by which we have districts larger than the senate districts, will apply equally to the Senate. We would not think for one single moment of applying the single districts to the judiciary for the reason the best men in the whole district are needed. Take our own district, the eighth, if you please. I would not be willing to be confined to particular localities for a justice of the supreme court. We want the opportunity for choosing the very best men in the entire district. The same rule, I think, would apply to Senators. But I have discovered this in this debate, while I should be satisfied that a single district system would not encounter any serious opposition at the polls, I am fearful that a large district system would. It could be very properly illustrated in the county of Erie. In ordinary times that county will elect a democratic Senator. It may elect from two to three republicans in the Assembly, but the balance would be on the other side. Now, if Erie county is put in the eighth district, there is no hope for the democrats, they could not elect a Senator, 711 and the result would be the Constitution would ward without reference as to how it shall receive the hostility of many democrats in that operate on the one side or on the other, county. If you carry out the same principle in because my party may be in power to day and reference to members of Assembly, the body of in the minority to-morrow. I hope the time is loyal republicans in that county would be sub- not very far distant when, if the democracy of stantially disfranchised because probably the this State are to continue, that it will be divided whole county would elect five on the other side. among the different portions of the State, and not Then at the polls you would encounter the oppo- confined to the cities of New York and Brooklyn. sition of the democracy in reference to the Senate, I believe the proposition of my colleague from and the republicans in reference to the Assembly. Niagara [Mr. Flagler] is the one most feasible; Now, if the single district system shall prevail in that is, it would suit the people better than any reference to the Senate it should also prevail in other now before this Convention. I shall listen, the Assembly for the same reason. From what as I have heretofore listened, with care to what I have discovered here, I am satisfied we are maybe said by any member. I shall be prepared nearly all disposed to increase the term of office to vote for what I believe to be the very best of a Senator. If we increase his term of office plan for the benefit of this State in raising the and increase his compensation, I believe we shall character and stability of the Senate, and to combe able to get a good Senate. I do not mean to plete our labors here by giving to the people of say we have not a good Senate now. I know this State the very best plan for the organization from short experience, when a man enters into of the Legislature we can get, after we have legislative duties he is more likely to be imposed listened to all that can be said on the subject upon in the first year than he will in the second year, from all sides of this chamber. by the third house. I don't mean to say by Mr. BICKFORD-I feel compelled to dissent reason of being bribed, for I never saw anything from so much of the report of the committee as of it. But what I mean is this: a man who is a relates to the senate districts. Prior to the new member is quite likely to meet men who are meeting of the Convention of 1846 the question outside without knowing their real character, and of single districts attracted great attention. The they may acquire an influence over him that he question was much agitated. If there was any is not aware of perhaps. Therefore he will one question, one item of reform more emphatilisten, not knowing their real object in cally demanded by the people than another, it approaching him. But when he ascertains by was that the large districts be abolished, and experience that Mr. A. and Mr. B. are professional that single districts should be substituted in their lobbyists then he will turn his back upon place. The Convention of 1846 obeyed the popthem. If we can increase the term of office I ular voice, which was outspoken and determined believe we would probably get out of the difficulty oa this point. The system of single districts has that is upon us now. For myself I should be been tried, and has worked well and satisfactoriquite satisfied with a large district system. I ly to the people. I see no evidence that they believe that is the best system that has been pro- either demand or expect a change in this particuposed here. But I am satisfied that system will lar. I feel certain that a return tothe large senanot suit the people as well as the single district torial district system would be received by the system. I have illustrated in the county of Erie, people most unfavorably. Whether the Convenand there are other counties, along the river for tion shall make the districts, or leave them to be instance, where upon a close contest sometimes made by the Legislature, will make no difference. one party would be successful and sometimes the It is impossible to divide the State into eight senother, but each party is willing to take the atorial districts without giving very great dissatchances for Senator, and this plan would encoun- isfaction, and without much of seeming unfairness. ter the same hostility there. And so in the city I believe the committee have intended to act of New York. If we divide the State fairly in their division, but they encountered diffil into large districts the democracy of the culties that were insuperable. The difficulties State would be represented at that end of belong to the system, naturally and inevitably. the State only. Because as you go west It is entirely impossible to arrange these eight the chances of that party become very slim districts in such a manner as shall not seem to be indeed. That we should have a respectable what used to be called a "gerrymander" for minority here in members is a salutary principle obtaining improper political advantage. I bein my humble judgment. Majorities will always lieve, too, that the gentleman from Rensselaer bear watching. That is illustrated in the county [Mr. M. I. Townsend] was correct in saying that of Erie again. There, sometimes, although it is the people would not sanction the proposed a democratic county, we elect a republican Sena- change, and that its adoption by the Convention tor. Sometimes, when it was a republican county, would be likely to defeat the Constitution before we felt the presence of the minority by reason the people, however excellent its other provisions of their assiduousness, and the watchfulness with might be, and I am, therefore, most decidedly in which they watched the republicans. I say the favor of adhering to the single district system of minority in all cases has a salutary effect on the electing Senators, as far as they shall be elected, majority. Without them we should become more by districts. But while the Convention of 1846 corrupt as parties than we are. I am not obeyed the popular will in adopting single senate prepared now to say how I should be willing to districts, they went further and adopted single vote, because the whole of the propositions are assembly districts also-a change which the not before this body. I desire to vote for the people did not demand. There was no call best proposition that shall be brought for- on the part of the people for single assembly 712 districts. The people had before elected mem- that it may meet a favorable consideration; bers of assembly by counties, and they were but if not, I shall favor the election of single sensatisfied with that system, and a trial of ate districts, and the election of Assemblymen by twenty years of the single district system, in counties, as the best thing that is now attainable. electing members of Assembly, has, in my judg- The scheme of the gentleman from Westchester ment, been sufficient to condemn that system. It is l[Mr. Greeley] is only one for giving two members a system emphatically designed and calculated to from a district to the political majority in that bring small men into the Assembly, and I insist district, and one to the minority. It would be that although the character of the Senate has been better, therefore, to provide plainly and distinctly for the last twenty years equal to what it was that each voter may vote for two, and that the before, yet that the character of the Assembly has three highest shall be elected. The scheme not. It has greatly deteriorated. I am, there- amounts to that, so far as results are concerned. fore, hopeful that this system of single As it stands it is only an intricate, inobvious and assembly districts will be abandoned, and involved plan of obtaining a result which can be I am prepared to welcome a return to the obtained very directly and plainly. I object to plan of electing by counties, unless another plan, any scheme which shall enable a minority in a diswhich I prefer, and which I will directly mention, trict to elect one-third of the representatives, beshall meet the favor of the Convention. I would cause it gives an undue advantage to the minority be glad, if possible, to unite with gentlemen in in the State. Under such a plan, if one party some practical scheme for the representation of were to carry ten of the fifteen districts proposed, the minority. I had the honor of introducing a and the other only five, the stronger party would proposition, embracing this proposition in part, have only twenty-five senators, and the mintority early in the Convention. Gentlemen will find it twenty. That is, while carrying two-thirds of the on pages ninety-six and ninety-seven of the Jour- districts they would have only five-ninths of the nal. It is there sketched as follows: senators, a trifle more than half. Such a great Resolved, That it be referred to the Committee advantage to the minority cannot be chliroed on No. 2 on the Legislature, its Organization, etc., to the score of justice, and I fail to see its expediency. inquire as to the expediency and propriety of pro- I The only feasible scheme of the representationr of viding for the election of 180 members of the minorities that should at the same time preserve Assembly, and of 45 members of the Senate; 144 a due preponderance to the party that is in the of the members of the Assembly to be elected in majority in the State would be this - districts entitled to elect not less than three nor Here the gavel fell the gentleman's time having more than six members, and the other 36 to be expired. elected for the State at large as personal repre- Mr. RUMSEY -I am opposed to the report of sentatives, each elector throughout the State to be the majority for one reason, because it does not entitled to vote for one personal representative in make a fair and equal distribution of the reprethe Assembly, and the thirty-six receiving the sentatives for the first district; and although I highest number of votes to be elected; also each have no particular fondness for that district, still elector throughout the State to be entitled to vote I desire to see equal justice meted out to it. I am for one personal representative in the Senate, and opposed to it, sir, for another reason. I am in the nine persons receiving the largest number of favor of single districts. I do not believe for one votes to be elected, and the other 36 Senators to moment that any want of respectability or dignity be elected in districts entitled to elect one State there may have been about the Senate for the last Senator only. twenty years, if any such there has been, arises This plan embraces the single district system from the fact that the Senators are elected by for a part of the Senators, and personal represen- single districts. It arises rather from the fact tatives for the rest. It will do something toward that their short term of office prevents them from the representation of minorities, though perhaps becoming familiar with the duties of their office, and, not all or as much as is desirable. It introduces therefore, the evil lies in that, and not in the manthe plan of the representation of persons, as well ner in which they are elected, because I have no as of places. It will enable men of talent and of doubt that in every district you can make in this great capacity for usefulness to find seats in the State you will find men qualified to fill the office Legislatture, although there is no local majority of Senator and throw around it all the dignity holding their political views. It will enable men that is required for that position, and it has this of ideas, in advance of the age, to give a voice in advantage, that it brings them nearer home, our public councils, and it will not give that undue nearer to the people than they otherwise would advantage to a political minority, which will be be. But if the majority of the Convention shall the inevitable result of the scheme proposed by see fit to make large districts I desire to see them the gentleman from Westchester [Mr. Greeley]. made as perfect as possible, and I have an amendThis plan also embraces the election of four-fifths ment which I propose to offer when it shall be il of the members of Assembly by districts, though order. The only object I have in rising now is not by single districts. It will necessitate the to spread that proposition before the committee division of only two counties, New York and that they may be enabled to judge what distributings, in the formation of these districts. For tion can best be made of the districts in the State one-fifth of the members I propose a personal which shall insure full justice to New York and representation similar to that proposed for Sen- all the other portions of the State. In the city asto While I do not claim that my scheme is of New York, by the arrangement which has been perior to any other that may be devised, made by the committee, they are deprived of reI tin it worthy of consideration, and I hope presentation for 54,000 of its population. This 713 ought not to be. It can be remedied very easily, Mr. MODONALD-I rise to support the propoand I would make large districts if the majority sition which has just been advanced by the genof the Convention desire large districts by tleman from Steuben [Mr. Rumsey], and also to making them eleven in number and requiring argue in favor of that of the gentleman from St. that all the counties of the State should Lawrence [Mr. Brown]. It does seem to me, as remain undivided except the city and county of has been stated by the gentleman from St. LawNew York, and by attaching that to the county rence [Mr. Brown], that if we intend to take any of Queens or some other county, you can make advantage of what experience teaches us, we two districts, and in that way they will get pre- will do as he has indicated; we will avoid cisely what they are entitled to-six Senators the mistakes that the Convention of 1846 from these two districts-which would leave an made, while we will take warning of the evils excess in the representative population of only which they attempted to and did avoid. Now about three thousand. I propose to send this let us see what were the evils that proposition of mine to the Clerk to have it read, the Convention of 1846 intended to abolin order that it may be before the Convention. ish. They unanimously almost, almost to a The SECRETARY proceeded to read thepropo- man, agreed that the old system was an evil. sition of Mr. Rumsey, as follows: Now why was it? It was for the very reason The Senate shall consist of thirty-three mem- that the gentleman from Rensselaer [Mr. M. 1. bers. The Legislature, at its session to be held Townsend] stated. This proposition of the people in the year 1868, shall divide the State into eleven ruling is all right, but if you go too far from the senate districts, to be composed of convenient people, then the between men, commonly called and contiguous territory, each of which shall politicians, will so change the will of the people contain, as near as may be, an equal number of that when they come to be finally represented in inhabitants, excluding aliens. No county shall these large districts, it will not be honestly the be divided in forming such districts, except the will of the people; but instead of the will of the city and county of New York. Each district people, you will have the will of the politishall be entitled to three Senators. The whole cians. That was the real evil that they Senate shall be chosen at the first election to be intended to remedy. Now they, like everybody held under this Constitution, and they shall class- else, for such is human nature, in avoiding one evil ify themselves so that one Senator in each dis- unwittingly run into another. The human mind trict shall go out of office at the end of each year is like the surface of a broad lake. When it is after the first. After the expiration of their terms blown upon by the wind in one direction, its under such classification, the terms of their office waves run up too far on the shore on the other, shall be four years. and then they return back again, until it finally Mr. RUMSEY - New York has a representa- settles at its true level; so the Convention of 1846, tive population of 574,548, Queens county has in attempting to avoid the evils of large districts, 52,400, making a total of 626,949. went too far in the opposite extreme. That is, it Mr. M. I. TOWNSEND -Does the gentleman made the Senate too much like the House, as intend to have thirty-three Senators or forty-four? stated by the gentleman from Chautauqua [Mr. Mr. RUMSEY — I intend to have thirty-three, Barker]. The reason for two bodies is plain. the same number as recommended by the major- One is a check on the other. The Senate should ity report of the committee. be more fixed, to express as it were the public Mr. M. I. TOWNSEND -And you only pro- mind, crystalized and fixed, while the House should vide for an election once in four years. represent the waving public mind just as it is Mr. RUMSEY - I understand that. There is from time to time, and one being a check on the no difficulty at all in electing one Senator right other thus a safe legislation will be had. I care along each year. The first one goes out of office not how you divide the State. Take the propoin two years, the second in three years and the sition of the gentleman from Steuben [Mr. Rumthird in four years. It is not at all necessary sey]. Divide the State into ten districts or that the terms of all should expire at the expira- eleven; divide it into anything, I care not what, tion of three years. This proposition, if New so that the political division will be radically difYork and Queens be taken for two districts. gives ferent from the present or any other political a representative population of 626,944. The ratio division of the State, and thus you will get very for a Senator is 104,017 and by giving six Sena- important advantages. Suppose you divide tors to the two districts thls to be formed 624,000 it into fifteen districts. With regard to the of the population would be represented. leaving western part of the State I have figured an excess of only about 3000-in the two a little, and I find if you divide it into districts. This will do them full jus- fifteen your unit will be 228,537 inhabitants, tice and if we are to have large districts excluding aliens. Commencing with the western they had better be made in that way. part of the State, you take Erie, Chautauqua, The other districts can be formed as may Cattaraugus, and you get 231,561. That is 3,000 be necessary in view of the population of the more than the unit. You take Monroe, Niagara, counties. I am also opposed to the project Orleans, Genesee and Livingston, which are eonof districting the State in this Convention. neted by railroads, and you get 227,127, which I think we had better leave to the Legisla- is only one thousand less. Take Wyoming, ture the formation of the districts, and thus keep Allegany, Steuben, Schuyler and Chemung, and clear of what I fear will otherwise prove a disturb- you get 229,214. You take Wayne, Ontario, ing element both in thia Convention and before Cayuga, Seneca, Tomplins and Cortlnd, and you the people, get 219,377. I do not say this is right. tis 90 714 only an illustration of the plan. The benefit which is to come from it is simply this. Any person living in the western part of the State knows this, that a nomination is worth more than an election at any time, because it is as it were a sure certificate for election. A person who gets the nomination in the western part of the State, in the present state of affairs, unless he is a very bad man, is just as sure of getting elected as a man who has a pass without any liability of injury at all. He does not run any liability. He has a certain thing. So that for the purposes of the people it is fully as important to so arrange under the present state of circumstances that the people are not, as it were, figured out of their wishes. Now, how is it done? It so happens that under the present arrangement that often the congressional district and senatorial district are identical. In such case a man who is a candidate for Corgress in one county is very foolish if he has not a candidate for the Senate in the other. He usually so arranges, and the candidate for Senate in one county and his friends are always in favor of the candidate for Congress in the other. I am in favor of a radical redistricting of the State, in such a manner that this political division of senate districts shall differ from any other political division, and thus prevent what is commonly called " log-rolling" in nominations. This is an important thing, and I think if we accomplish this we have done one good thing. You take and divide this State into thirteen, eleven, or fifteen districts, and the districts will so run across and divide every other political division that Mr. Congressman from one county cannot make an agreement with Mr. Senator in another, for the reason that Mr. Senator will be in a different congressional district, and he cannot be benefited thereby, and men do not make bargains unless it is for the mutual benefit of both. It seems to me, for this reason, that if we redistrict the State we will thereby avoid the great evil that the Convention of 1846 attempted to avoid. Now let us see if we get any benefit. If we take thirteen districts, or you can have it in the way the gentleman from Steuben [Mr. Rumsey] proposes; I care not about the particular way you divide it. Take thirteen districts, three in each district, and we have thirty-nine Senators, but if you elect one every year we have a Senate of thirty-nine. You will have a fixed body, thirteen of them to go out every year, and we have thirteen new ones brought in fresh from the people, and twenty-six remain. In that way we get a fixed body, and we have all the advantages of the Senate before 1846. We get a practical check upon the House in any of its hasty legislation. We avoid in that way the troubles which the plan of the gentleman from Niagara [Mr. Flagler] suggests. In the present state of affairs colonization is all bosh, and will not be attempted for the very reason that it will not pay to colonize. The idea of colonizing the district which I have the honor in part to represent, with its three thousand majority, is preposterous. It cannot be done. The idea of colonizing in New York, a district where they have from nine to ten thousand majority. It cannot be done. We are in an anomalous state of affairs. The political majority in one part of tlie State is heavy in one way, and another part is heavy in another. But we are not always to suppose that this state of things is always to exist. Parties are liable to change. The human mind may change, and it may be that before ten years the different parties may become very nearly balanced. It is under such circumstances colonization takes place. If the Senate gets to be very nearly a tie, and you can elect a Senator in the odd district by spending about ten thousand dollars, I guarantee you will find plenty of men in this State ready to spend ten thousand dollars. Ten thousand dollars will support four or five hundred voters for four months in almost any county in the State, and under that state of affairs it is pretty important to provide protection against colonization. If you take the Senate districts and arrange them irregularly and the Senate happens to get just even, so that the election of the eight that are to come will change the character of that Senate by one; if there is a close district, there is a fair opportunity to colonize that district from the other twenty-four districts, which do not take part in the election. They can spare a good many votes, for they can just as well vote for Governor and State officers in one county as another. In expectation of what may happen, we ought to provide against this colonization. This is what the Convention of 1846 attempted to provide against. That is the only objection I have to the plan of the gentleman from Niagara [Mr. Flagler], that if the time comes when the Senate is politically nearly tied, and it is worth while to colonize, it affords them a very fine opportunity. But in ihe way it is now suggested to divide the State into districts to be entirely and disti:ctly different from any other political division of the State, you get the advantage of the plan which we have followed since 1846, and you also get the advantage of the pl n that we had before 1846. You, as far as you can, avoid all opportunities as it were to "log-roll" a man into a nomination and thereby into an election, and you at the same time get a Senate that has stability and will not change every year. You also get the benefit of experience, they have three years experience. Thus, you get all the advantages of the two plans that have been so well illustrated by so many gentlemen on this floor. Mr. GARVIN-I do not desire at this late time to make any remarks on the report of the committee, but I desire to read the following resolution which I shall by and bye offer for the consideration of the Convention and make such remarks, in reference to it, as I think proper. The SECRETARY proceeded to read the amendment of Mr. Garvin, as follows: Section 2, line 4. Strike out " one" and insert ' two," so that it will read: " The first district shall consist of the city and county of New York, and shall be entitled to two additional Senators." Mr. BALLARD-We are now near the honr of adjournment and as we are not prepared to take a vote, I move that the committee do now risd, report progress, and ask leave to sit again. 715 The question was put on the motion of Mr Ballard and declared carried. Whereupon the committee rose and the PRESIDENT pro tern. resumed the chair in Con. vention. Mr. ARCHER, from the Committee of the Whole, reported that they had had under consideration the report of the Committee on the Legislature, its Organization, etc., had made some progress therein, but not having gone through therewith, had instructed their chairman to report that fact to the Convention, and ask leave to sit again. Mr. T. W. DWIGHT- I move to modify that with instructions to take a vote on the amend. ment now pending on Wednesday morning, as the first business. Mr. MERRITT- I would move to amend that to take it on Tuesday evening. Mr. T. W. DWIGHT- If that is the general desire I accept it. Mr. VERPLANCK - Will the gentleman say Wednesday evening instead of Tuesday evening? Mr. MERRITT - Tuesday evening. Mr. VERPLANCK —If the gentleman insists upon this. I think it better to take Wednesday evening. Very many members have been excused for Monday and Tuesday evening, and they will not be here until Wednesday. If the gentle man insists upon this, I shall insist upon calling the attention of the President to the fact that there is no quorum present. Mr. -IARRIS-I do not think the Convention is in a position to take any order of this kind at this time. I hope this proposition will be allowed to lie over until the Convention shall re-assemble, when we can have a larger number of members present. Mr. GARVIN-I think this motion should lie over for the present; and the question taken at a later day when a full Convention shall be present. I know there are several gentlemen who desire to make some remarks in reference to the report of the committee, and it is desirable that on a question of this importance there should not only be a full and fair discussion and due consideration, but that every member should have an opportunity to be here and vote. I know one of the distinguished members of this Convention who expects to be here on Tuesday. He may not be here until late in the afternoon, and may not be able to present his views on this question until that evening. I think the Convention will desire to hear him, and they will not only hear him with great pleasure, but will be enlightened by his views. This is one of the most important questions that has come before us, and you will find when our labors come to be submitted to the people, and they read the debates which have taken place in regard to this very question, that it is one in which they take the very deepest possible interest. I know in regard to my own constituency in the city of New York, that there is no question that could be presented to this Convention in which they feel a deeper interest than in the one now under consideration. I have lived in the country many years. I recollect very well in regard to this question, when it was up for the consideration of the Convention of 1846, it was not, only embar rassing, but it was a question in which the people felt such an interest that it came very near defeating the Constitution. You recollect the vote was very light. I desire to make a good Constitution. If the Constitution is to be adopted by the people, and I think that is the desire of the delegates, we should not be precipitate in regard to questions of such importance. I therefore hope that this matter will be deferred for the present and acted upon in full Convention. If, Mr. President, when there is a full assemblage, the Convention shall hold that this question be taken without debate, I have certainly no objection. I do not wish to occupy the attention of this body with any extended remarks, but I do desire when questions of this description are acted upon we should not only have a full Convention, but a full and fair opportunity on impor tant questions to express our views. Mr. T. W. DWIGHT-My object in bringing forward this amendment was to make it clear that we should not take any vote on Monday, nor until gentlemen should be present, and not for the purpose of hurrying the vote, but for fixing a period up to which it could not be taken, and as it appears there is a disposition not to have any time fixed, and the understanding seems to be it is not to be taken on Monday, I will withdraw the proposition and now move to adjourn. Mr. LAPHAM-I suggest to the gentleman from Oneida [Mr. T. W. Dwight] to modify his resolution into one of instruction to the Committee of the Whole to take up the other portions of the report in the mean time. The PRESIDENT pro term.-The Chair will inform the gentleman from Ontario [Mr. Lapham] that the gentleman from Oneida [Mr. T. W. Dwight] has withdrawn his resolution. Mr. LAPHAM- Then I make that motion. I move, sir, that in granting the leave to sit again, it be with directions to the Committee of the Whole to take up the other sections of the report before passing on the one now under consideration, if they choose to do so. The PRESIDENT pro tern. - The Chair understands the motion that the committee have leave to sit again is coupled with instructions to pass the particular section under discusssion and take up the other sections of the report. Mr. McDONALD -Under such instructions as that would it be exactly proper for the Committee of the Whole to discuss any section? The PRESIDENT pro ter. - The Chair must leave that to the Committee of the Whole. Mr. McDONALD-I am informed that there are gentlemen not present, and also others who are present, who are desirous of addressing the committee and saying something in regard to the question now pending, and I hope no directions which, while it might not be a prohibition, would be an indication - Mr. M. I. TOWSEND —I desire to ask the gentleman a question. The motion is submitted by the gentleman from Ontario [Mr. Lapham] to authorize the Committee of the Whole to pass this subject if it should see fit to do so, but proposes to leave it under the control of the committee and authorizes them to do so if they desire. Mr. McDONALD- Then it is of no use. If it 716 does so it amounts to nothing; it is either a pro. hibition or an indication. The PRESIDENT pro ter. —The Chair will state for the information of the gentleman from Ontario [Mr. Lapham] that, under the idea the Chair has, if the Committee of the Whole are not permitted so to do they have no right to do so. Mr. BALLARD -I hope we will dispose of this question with regard to the districts of this State. Mr. SCHOONMAKER - As the hour fixed for the adjournment has arrived, I move that we do now adjourn. The PRESIDENT pro tem.-Will the gentleman withdraw his motion for the present, until the question is put upon granting the committee leave to sit again? The question was then put upon granting the committee leave to sit again, and it was declared carried. Mr. MERRITT-I would say, on the part of the committee, that they are desirous of giving reasonable time for discussion, but I wish to say it is their purpose to try and get a vote on this proposition on Tuesday evening. If at that time it is necessary to go over another day, it can. But it will be our purpose to reach the vote at that time, but at the same time to give reasonable time for full discussion. The hour of adjournment having arrived, the Convention stood adjourned till Monday at ten o'clock A. M. MONDAY, August 5, 1867. The Convention met at 10 o'clock A. M. the President pro tem. [Mr. FOLGER] in the chair. Prayer was offered by the Rev. M. GRIFFITH. The Journal of Saturday was read by the SECRETARY and approved. Mr. BELL presented the petition of Henry Spicef, E. S. Tallman, and twelve other citizens of Brownsville, Jefferson county, asking for a pro. vision in the Constitution securing " the right of fishing in the international waters bordering on this State, etc." Which was referred to the Committee on the Preamble and Bill of Rights. Mr. BELL also presented the petition of thirteen citizens of the town of Brownsville, Jefferson county, on the same subject. Which took the same reference. Mr. BICKFORD presented the petition of Charles W. Washburne, and forty-nine others, citizens of Brownsville, Jefferson county, on the same subject. Which took the same reference. Mr. BARKER presented the petition of fiftyone citizens of Dunkirk, Chautauqua county, asking for a provision in the Constitution prohibiting the donation of public moneys to sectarian institutions. Which was referred to the Committee on the Powers and Duties of the Legislature. Mr. DUGANNE presented the petition of Cornelius F. Varrath, John Westervelt, Horace Waters, and one hundred and seventy-six others, on the same subject. Which took the same rtferece. Mr. SMITH —If in order, I would like to ask leave of absence for the day for Mr. Landon. There being no objection, leave was granted. Mr. BARKER -I move a call of the roll of the Convention. The question was put on the motion of Mr Barker, and it was declared carrried. The SECRETARY proceeded to call, and the following gentlemen answered to their names: Messrs. A. F. Allen, N. M. Allen, Alvord, Andrews, Baker, Ballard, Barker, Bell, Bickford, Bowen, E. A. Brown, W. C. Brown, Case, Champlain, Chesebro, Clark, Clinton, Conger, Cooke, Corning, Daly, Duganne, C. C. Dwight, T. W. pwight, Ely, Field, Flagler, Folger, Fuller, Gould, Graves, Greeley, Hadley, Hale, Hammond, Harris, Hitchcock, Ketcham, Kinney, Krum, Lapham, A. Lawrence, M. H. Lawrence, Ludington, Mattice, Merrill, Merritt, Merwin, Opdyke, A. J. Parker, C. E. Parker, Pond, Potter, Prosser, Rathbun, Root, Rumsey, L. W. Russell, Schell, Schumaker, Seaver, Seymour, Silvester, Smith, Spencer, Strong, Tappen, S. Townsend, Van Campen, Van Cott, Wakeman, Wales-72. The question was put on the motion of Mr. Barker, and it was declared carried. Mr. CHESEBRO-I move that we adjourn until half-past seven o'clock this evening. Mr. SEYMOUR-Would it be in order to move for an earlier hour? The PRESIDENT pro ter. - The Chair is of opinion it would not. Mr. SEYMOUR —By four o'clock I think we would have a quorum. The question was put upon the motion of Mr. Chesebro, and it was declared lost. Mr. GOULD -I move that the Convention take a recess until four o'clock this afternoon. Mr. ALVORD —I hope not, Mr. President. Four o'clock is the only time we shall have to do anything in committees, and it is generally understood one or two of the important committees meet at four o'clock. Mr. GOULD-I will withdraw my motion. Mr. BARKER- I move a call of this Convention, and hope that it will be executed. I dislike to make this motion, but I deem it due to those who are kept here over Sunday. Mr. E. A. BROWN - If we take a recess until half-past seven o'clock this evening, the members who are in town will have an opportunity to attend to their duties as committeemen and whatever other duties they may have to discharge; if we come here at four o'clock we may be able to transact some business, but there may not be a quorum present at that hour. Therefore, it will follow that if we pursue this idle ceremony of calling this Convention, we shall waste to-day, and those who are here and who may be able to discharge some duties outside of the Convention, will have their time frittered away, and no gain whatever result from it. I trust, therefore, if in order, we shall take a recess until half-past seven o'clock, so that we may be able to do something in the course of this day outside of this hall, if not within it. Mr. ALVORD- It strikes me, sir, that it is not in order under this motion of the Convention to take the question on the motion from the gen. 717 tleman from Lewis [Mr. E. A. Brown]. Now, sir, it seems to me, that we should proceed with this call; we can suspend it anytime when it shall become necessary for us to go into the committee at four o'clock without any difficulty; but if we proceed with the call we shall have, regularly, according to parliamentary usage, the gentlemen who are absent, in contempt of the orders of this Convention, and can call them to an account when in our opinion we see fit to do so. In addition to that we shall have them upon the record as having violated one of the rules of the Convention. If it goes no further than that, it may be that in the future, under the arrangement which has been made deliberately by the Convention, they will endeavor to comport their views of their duty somewhat to the desires and necessities of this Convention. Sir, we have in the past week, after deliberation and with a desire to accommodate these gentlemen who are in the habit of going away from us, adopted a plan which they agreed was entirely satisfactory, and would result so far as they were concerned in their prompt attendance upon the duties of the Convention in its future sessions. Under the resolution offered by the gentleman from Oneida [Mr. T. W. Dwight] we deliberately agreed that commencing with this week we should meet on Monday at ten o'clock; that we should adjourn promptly on Friday at one o'clock, over until the succeeding Monday at half-past seven o'clock, and then upon that week to adjourn on Saturday at one o'clock over until the next Monday at ten o'clock, giving each alternate week half of Friday, the entire of Saturday and the whole of Monday until half-past seven o'clock to gentlemen to absent themseves away from their duties in this Convention legitimately and according to our rule, Here, upon the very eve of commencing this arrangement which was acceptable to the gentlemen who were in the habit of non-attending at this particular stage of our sessions, we find ourselves this morning without a quorum. I hope, therefore, the gentlemen who are absent will be put upon our roll as absent under the call of the Convention, if we do not proceed to order the sergeant-at-arms to find them out wherever they may happen to be throughout the State. Mr. BALLARD —I rise to inquire whether it would involve the necessity of the members who are present remaining here during the execution of the call. The PRESIDENT pro tem. —The Chair is of opinion it would. Mr. BALLARD —Then I hope this call will not be made; it will deprive the members of the committees of an opportunity to discharge their duties. It seems to me that if the names of the absentees are called and entered upon the roll as absentees, it will answer all necessary purposes as an admonition that those members who are absent must be present in the future. I hope, therefore, this call will not be made. Mr. BELL-I have steadily opposed a call of this Convention thus far, and have been willing to take the view that the gentleman from Cortland [Mr. Ballard] suggests, that by entering the names of the absentees upon the roll it might be a auffi cient admonition, but we have continued that process for two months and the admonition has not proved salutary. We are left here every week, nearly, without a quorum. Now, sir, I am in favor of taking some measures that will secure a quorum, and as has been been properly remarked by the gentleman from Onondaga [Mr. Alvord], this arrangement by which we are to have every alternate Saturday has been entered into by the absentees themselves, and they ought certainly to abide by their own arrangement, but it seems they do not, and if we are to continue this plan as suggested by the gentleman from Cortland [Mr. Ballard] it will only be to continue one-fifth of the time at least, without a quorum. I believe the time has come when we ought to take more effective means to get a quo rum, and compel the members to comply with the arrangements made here last Friday or Saturday. I know it is disagreeable for gentlemen to be brought here under a call; but is there any other means of securing a quorum? We have resolved to adjourn on the 10th day of September. Now, sir, if we continue to go on as we have, we will not have completed our labors nor anything like it. This matter, sir will be under the control of the Convention, and when a majority present think the call has proceeded far enough, they can take the back track; but until we do secure a quorum I think the call had better be proceeded with. Mr. SEYMOUR —I am as desirous as any other member of this Convention of proceeding with our business. If I supposed that a call of the Convention at this time would really result in any good, I should vote for it, but I am opposed to it because I have seen in legislative bodies many calls made and very few executed and carried through. It will result only in a long delay, and prevent members that are here, from attending to business, without producing what we aim at, the attendance of the members of the Convention. It is well understood, I think, by the members here, that nearly all who are absent, are out of the city, and if we dispatch the sergeant-atarms for the purpose of bringing them in, we cannot do it without he himself departs from the city, and we shall not have the absent members in attendance, certainly for this forenoon. Public attention has been called to it, and it will be reported in our proceedings that a number were here ready to proceed with the business of the Convention, and organized, and were unable to do business by reason of the absentees depriving us of a quorum. I think the better way would be to adjourn. I hope, therefore, the Convention will not proceed with the call. Mr. OPDYKE-What we desire is to make all possible progress with the business before us. It is known that Monday morning is the most diffi. cult time for members who visit their homes to be here so as to enable us to have a quorum. I, for one, feel very lenient toward those who are absent on Monday morning; the trains do not get her in time, and many of them avail themselves of the Sabbath and spend it at home, and find it impossible to return as early as ten o'clock; but I notice since the roll was called a large number of members have 718 come in, and I think we have a right to assume that we have a quorum present now. Under that assumption, and with a view of proceeding with our business, I am in favor of laying the present order of business on the table, that we may go into Committee of the Whole and proceed with our business. If in order I make that motion. The PRESIDENT pro ter. - The motion is in order, but the motion for a call of the Convention takes precedence of it. Mr. CONGER - I wish to say that I apprehend a majority of those who are absent did not understand that the rule proposed by the honorable gentleman from Oneida [Mr. T. W. Dwight] was that we should meet here on Monday at ten o'clock. For my own part, I am free to confess that I was entirely oblivious of that fact, and was engaged in my room writing, supposing that we were to meet at one o'clock. There is no possibility of gentlemen getting here from the city of New York - unless we oblige them to travel on the Sabbath - before the hour of one o'clock. There is no train leaving the city by which they can get here until that time; and I hope sincerely there will be no attempt made on the part of this Convention to compel gentlemen from the city of New York to be here at ten o'clock in the morning when we could not ask them to be here, if they went home, without traveling on the Sabbath or part of the Sabbath. The rule ought to be amended, and at the earliest opportunity I shall move to make this adjournment to Monday afternoon at one o'clock. Mr. DALY —The gentleman from Rockland has in part suggested what I was about to say. I alone here to-day represent the large delegation from the city of New York. Two-thirds of that delegation will probably be here in time for a meeting in the evening, if we should adjourn until this evening, and it would probably enable us to have a quorum. What I wish to suggest, however, in consonance with the gentleman from Rockland [Mr. Conger], is, that, as we adjourn on Saturday at one o'clock, affording gentlemen an opportunity for leaving the city, we should meet at such a time on Monday as to enable them to return. I wish, therefore, Mr. President, to offer an amendment, if it be now in order, that we adjourn until seven o'clock this evening. The PRESIDENT pro tem.-It is not in order to adjourn to any fixed time, except to take a recess to the'time fixed by the prior resolution of the Convention. Mr. DALY-Then I move we take a recess until half-past seven o'clock. Mr. ALVORD-Mr7 President, I do not see the reasonThe PRESIDENT pro tem.-The question is now on taking a recess until half-past seven o'clock, which is not debatable. Mr. ALVORD - I wish to ask the Chair why a motion to take a recess can take precedence of a motion for a call of the Convention? The PRESIDENT pro ter. -Rule twenty-three says questions shall be put in the order as follows: 1. For an adjournment. 2. For a recess. 3. A call of the Convention. 4. To lay on the table. 5. To postpone indefinitely. 6. To postpone to a day certain. 7. To commit to a Committee of the Whole. 8. To commit to a standing committee. 9. To commit to a select committee. 10. To amend. The question was then put on the motion of Mr. Daly, and it was declared lost, on a division, by a vote of 25 to 36. Mr. ALVORD - What I was about to say was this: I do not see any reason why gentlemen residing in the city of New York and the county of Kings have a right to control the operations of this Convention by their absence more than gentlemen residing in the interior and the more remote portions of the State of New York. Again, and again, and again, sir, have we adjourned to accomodate gentlemen who are thus situated composing one-fifth of the entire delegation of this Convention who absent themselves persistently each and every week, commencing on Friday evening and go away and keep going away until Saturday and extending over until the next Monday or Tuesday. I and other gentlemen reside no greater distance from this capital than gentlemen residing in the city of New York, and there are other gentlemen here in my immediate neighborhood; but there are no such number of gentlemen who reside within 150 miles of this capital any where in this State, except in that locality, who persistently absent themselves for the last one or two days and the first one or two days of each and every week, and thus we are confined, in substance, to but four days' session in the week. We should show distinctly and clearly and not mistakingly, that so far as we are concerned, we do not believe that is the way to do the duty which the people have put upon us in sending us here to undertake to form the Constitution of the State. Gentlemen from New York should have no more liberties and no more privileges in this regard than any of the rest of us. There is no difficulty whatever in going on with this call, clearing this chamber, and by solemn resolution those of us who are here, putting these men in contempt, and then suspending the call if we desire so to do. Now, there is no difficulty whatever, and until we do take some such measure as this, and clearly and deliberately put upon our record that these men are not present and are in contempt of their duties as members of this Convention, we shall not have done anything in the way of reform in this respect. My experience in this matter as regards gentlemen from that portion of the State, is, that d own to the very end of the sessions of the Legislature they have absented themselves in the same way, and until we can make up our minds that we can have enough gentlemen outside of that locality who will go on and do the duties and the business of the Convention to the interests of the people of this State, we in Convention shall always have this same difficulty. I trust, therefore, under these circumstances, that this call will be proceeded with to the extent of putting by resolution these men in contempt for their non-attendance at this time. Mr. DUGANNE - I should be in favor of this 719 call were it not for certain peculiar circumstances which I am cognizant of in regard to the difficulty of getting from New York to this city on the first of the week. I attended last night at the wharf, expecting that the usual boat would be still pursuing her trips to the city of Albany, but I found she had been taken off and a small boat placed in her stead which could not accommodate the number coming up. I presume a great many gentlemen in the city of New York have been detained on account of this arrangement. I should be in favor of excusing them on that account; therefore, I move to suspend the call until one o'clock. Mr. LAPHAM-When the gentleman from Wyoming [Mr. Merrill] on Saturday moved for a general leave of absence for all the absentees, I opposed the proposition on the ground that the Convention having adopted a rule of business and order of adjournment by which it should sit one week until Saturday noon and adjourn until Monday morning and the next week until Friday noon and adjourn until Monday evening, there is no longer any excuse for members of this Convention being absent without leave. I hold, sir, that in view of the resolution we have adopted that we will adjourn sine die on the 10th day of September next, there is no longer any apology for any member of this Convention to absent himself except upon an excuse which is satisfactory to the members of this body, and in pursuance of which they may grant him leave to be away. I am, therefore, in favor of proceeding with this call, and I hope the delegates here present will view the case in the light of owing it to their self-respect as well as to a sense of duty, to demand that some steps shall be taken that will effectually prevent absences of this character in the future deliberations of this Convention. Unless this can be done the result is, that the whole of Saturday and the whole of Monday are lost in our deliberations. Such has been the case from the organization of the Convention to this time and such will be the case in the future deliberations of the Convention unless we can do something to carry into a practical effect the resolution which we have adopted. Now do let us adopt resolute measures, and earnest measures. Do let us show that this proposition to bring the labors of this Convention to an early termination, as evinced in the resolution adopted last week, is an earnest and sincere one, one which we believe was not resorted to as a piece of clap trap, but is a real intention and desire to bring the labors of this Convention to a close at the earliest possible day. Mr. FLAGLER -I would inquire how many members are now shown to be present. The PRESIDENT piro ten. - The Secretary informs the Chair that there are 69 members now present. Mr. CLINTON - There is a great deal of wisdom in these old sayings, and my impression is that the time has come when it is our manifest duty to "throw stones." We have tried resolutions and persuasive words, and they have been ineffectual; we have tried a call of the roll, and that has been ineffectual. Now let us have a call of the Convention. Mr. VAN COTT - I hope we will throw stones if we pretend to throw stones. There is just one deduction to be made from the observation of my friend from Ontario [Mr. Lapham]. We adopted the resolution as to the order of business late in the week, not giving members sufficient time to make arrangements at their own places of business for the new order of things, and many gentlemen had to go away to make those arrangements, intending when they went to adhere strictly to those arrangements in the future. Then, it is to be borne in mind also, that we gave leave of absence to enough gentlemen to make up a quorum this morning. We ate without a quorum, therefore, by our own action, and that I think ought to be considered. I am in favor of yielding to the pressure of these considerations for one day, and "for one day only," as they say upon the bills. But if we do not take that course, then there is another course due to our self-respect. If this call is to be proceeded with, it ought to be proceeded with to the last extremity. We have had one partial call of the Convention already; we have called names, and pretty hard names, too. We resolved to do some very frightful things, and ended in doing nothing, as might be expected; producing no effect whatever upon the attendance on the Convention. Let us stop here or go forward. If gentlemen who propose this call mean it, so that they will put every man in contempt who is absent without a good excuse, and proceed to the extremity with him-if they will not yield to the course I suggest and go with me, I will yield to the course they suggest and go with them if they go so far, but do not let us go through this idle form of calling names and putting gentlemen on the record as absentees, and make a great flourish of trumpets, with after all no list of killed and wounded, and only a large display of "missing." Let us do the work effectually, or not do it at all. I prefer waiting, but if gentlemen do not wish to wait let us go on and secure for the future a quorum of this Convention to the end of the session. Mr. KETCHAM —I think we had better adjourn to Saratoga and then nobody will want to go home. Mr. GREELEY-I desire to offer this as a substitute. "Resolved-that the roll of the Convention be called at 11 A. M. each day and every member not then responding, shall be held to forfeit his pay for that day." I think you will find that rule will give us a quorum every day. Mr. ALVORD -I will suggest to my friend that, in the absence of a quorum, we cannot pass any such resolution. The PRESIDENT pro ter. - The resolution is in order, but it cannot be entertained at the present time as we have no quorum. Mr. VAN CAMPEN- I most fully agree with the gentleman who last spoke in regard to this matter. Owing to the circumstances that a resolution establishing a new order was adopted late in the week so that gentlemen hardly had notice of it, and had no time to arrange their business, I think on the whole it would be perhaps unwise to enforce a call of the Convention at the present time, but if a majority of the members think it 720 advisable to pursue this call to its final end-so that every member of this Convention is brought in here-I will go in for it and stay here till we see why the members are not here. Mr. FULLER-I agree most fully with gentlemen who have spoken, that there is no excuse for the absentees, other than those who have been excused on asking leave. There is no apology to be made for them. But at the same time the question in my mind is, whether if we lock the doors, shut down the windows, and proceed with a call of this Convention, while the sergeant-atarms goes away to bring back the absent members, we shall not punish ourselves more than we shall them. I am inclined to think we shall. I have had a little experience in this way, and my own opinion is, we should punish ourselves worse than the absent members. I think if we wait an hour or two we shall have a quorum present, and I think we had better do that than proceed with a call at this time, although there is no apology for their absence. But let us, as the gentleman from Kings [Mr. Van Cott] says, if we begin with this call, let us go through with it to the bitter end. Mr. ALVORD —When we shall have got a majority of the Convention here together, as I undertook to state before, and as I think I stated correctly, we can declare those who are absent antil that time in contempt, and then we can dissolve the call; and those parties thus in contempt, as they come in here, will be bound to come before the bar of the Convention and be arraigned, and give their excuse, if they have any. No necessity exists for a continuance of the call anything beyond obtaining a quorum on the part of the Convention. Mr. FULLER -I had said the most that I desired to say. It is very evident we can get no quorum until the train comes in from New York. 1 suggest, under the circumstances, whether we had not better wait until that time to proceed with the call of the Convention. Mr. LUDINGTON- I have been here, sir, every day for the last five weeks, excepting one Sunday, which I think, sir, is an earnest that I, for one, desire a hasty termination of the labors before us. But, sir, I think before we insist upon this call we, as a body, should purge ourselves of all fault. We are in this position; that on Friday we excused a large number of the members of this Convention, which I think was an error on the part of the Convention, and in consequence of that error we find ourselves on this occasion without a quorum. For that reason I think it would be, perhaps, impracticable or unjustifable on our part to insist upon a call of the Convention. I therefore move that the call be suspended until the arrival of tie train, which will doubtless bring a sufficient number to constitute a quorum. Mr. BARKER-I wish to make a statement in connection with this call of the Convention. It will be to-morrow morning, I believe, eight weeks since this Convention assembled, and, I think, I may state that it has not had thirty days sessions in which any considerable business has been done. I may make another statement, that with one or two excptions the committees appointed by this Convention hav not been together to do business to the extent 'of twenty days; these are facts which I apprehend no gentleman will controvert, and I wish to make this statement that it may go upon the record with this call. I speak for myself, as being somewhat disgusted with the delay of this Convention, and I know that business men and intelligent men throughout the State entertain the same idea. The fact is, that this Convention is composed of business men, and they attempt to run their private affairs with their duties as members of this Convention. Gentlemen who live near this capital can carry on both concerns, but those who live in the distant part of the State are obliged to abandon their private business and be away from their families, and are, therefore, anxious for the day to arrive when they can return to their homes and business; and I shall not yield in this call of the Convention, and when it shall be made, if this Cofivention order it, I hope some one will be slaughtered, as my friend from Kings [Mr. Van Cott] alludes to, and that the sorgeant-at-arms will be directed to bring members enough in until we get a quorum, if we sit here till ten o'clock tonight to accomplish it. Mr. S. TOWNSEND —I call for the ayes and noes. Mr. E. A. BROWN —For myself, I desire to say, that since this Convention convened, I have been present every Saturday and every Monday, every Friday and every Tuesday, with the exception of Monday evening and Friday morning of last week. From my place of residence it is impossible to reach Albany without riding the latter half of the night, and two-thirds of the day, so it is impossible to get here Monday evening without starting Sunday night. I made a remark sometime ago that I supposed no practical good, present or perspective, would come from the calling of this Convention; that we would, as we have on several other occasions, in attempting to cut off debate and secure a quorum, use up the time of the members of the Convention to no practical purpose, when we might be busy in committee or elsewhere, and all that can be expected to be accomplished by proceeding in this call at the present time will be to use up the time and gain just as much as we gained when my honorable friend from Onondaga [Mr. Alvord] on a former occasion on Saturday made a motion of this kind, or gave notice that he would make it on the next Monday. I do not think any good has come of it. We have frittered away our time here to no advantage except the pleasure of listening to the discussion on these interminable side issues which has accomplished nothing in the deliberations of this Convention. Mr. GREELEY-I understand the call not only to be to provide for a quorum this morning but in addition, to proceed so far that when we have obtained a quorum we shall then decide on the measures that are to be taken to preserve a quorum in our future attendance. In that view I shall sustain the motion of the gentleman from Chautauqua [Mr. Barker] and vote aye on his proposition. Mr. FLAGLER -I shall vote to sustain tins call, for it involves, in my judgment, this question: shall this Convention hold sessions but 721 four days per week? If a decision should b' excuse can be granted unless there is a quorum against this call, and thus it should be the jud- present. ment of this Convention that those absenting Mr. TAPPEN -I rise to ask if it would be in themselves regularly one-third of the time are order to suspend the call of the Convention. right, I shall in the future conform my own ar- The PRESIDENT pro tern. -The Chair is of rangements to that decision. It is as incon- the opinion that it will. venient to me as it is to those gentlemen who Mr. ALVORD -I ask what, in the opinion of are absent, to remain away from home the whole the Chair, would be the result of it, whether the time; and if this Convention shall defeat this suspension of the call of the Convention under call, and say that this practice is justifiable, and the present circumstances does not result in our indeed commendable, I see no reason why a part being without a quorum again, and consequently of this Convention should be held during the whole from that suspension we would have to forego week, when by the action of the majority of the the call entirely? If the gentleman from Westmembers of this Convention the business of the chester [Mr. Tappen] desires after we have gone Convention is not proceeded with. Especially so far, to go no farther, he is right in moving to when by a motion of the gentleman from Oneida suspend the call. [Mr. T. W. Dwight], it was determined with a The PRESIDENT pro tem.-The Chair is of the view to the convenience of the members that opinion, if the motion for suspension is carried, it this matter should be compromised by an arrange- makes all proceedings under the call nugatory. ment giving every other week to go home; it Mr. TAPPEN- What I desired was to make seems to me extraordinary that we see this array this call at a time when it would be likely of empty seats this morning. I shall, therefore, to have some effect. No call of the Convote for this call, and I will at some inconvenience vention can possibly bring a quorum present unremain to the end of it with a view of testing til the arrival of the morning train, and my the question which I think is really involved on object was to suspeld these proceedings until the the motion now pending, whether this Conven- latter part of the day, when we can get a sufficient tion will hold sessions four days of the week number to make a quorum. The call of the Coninstead of six. vention can only be effectual when, as is the case Mr. MERRILL —I would like to know if it is in Washington or Albany, the sergeant-at-arms in order to move the previous question. can procure enough from the city precincts to form The PRESIDENT pro tern. - The Chair would a quorum, otherwise the call of the House would inform the gentleman that it is in order. produce no permanent results. However, in Mr. MERRILL-Then I move the previous deference to the request of certain gentlemen, I question. will withdraw my motion. The question was put on the motion of Mr. Mr. A. J. PARKER-I think it my duty to Merrill, and it was declared carried. renew the motion. In regard to two of my The question then recurred on the motion of colleagues who are absent, I know they are now Mr. Barker, on which the ayes and noes were ill and have been for several days. If we move called. this call, we cannot get a quorum in the city, and A sufficient number having seconded the call, to send to New York for members would take the ayes and noes were ordered, and the motion more than the entire day. I make this motion was declared carried by the following vote. because I am satisfied we cannot obtain a quorum Ayes-Messrs. A. F. Allen, N. M. Allen, Alvord, by going on with the call. There are no delegates Barker, Bell, Bickford, Bowen. Case. Champlain, in town who can be found to come in and make Clinton, Cooke, C. C. Dwight, T. W. Dwight, Ely, a quorum, and to send to New York or distant Flagler, Folger, Gould, Graves, Greeloy, Hadley, parts of the State would occupy the entire day. Hammond. Hitchcock. Kinney, Lapharn, A. Law- We can gain nothing by doing so, we will lose our rence, M. H. Lawrence, Merrill, Merritt, Ratlbun. whole time and gain nothing. I hope those presRoot, Rumsey, L. W. Russell, Seaver, Smith, Spen- ent will conclude to consent to suspetnd this call cel; Van Campen, Wakeman, Wales-38. and I make this motion. oes —Messrs. Andrews, Baker, Ballard, E. A. Mr. SCIUMAKER -I hope that motion will Brown, W. C. Brown, Cllesebro, Clark, Conger, prevail. My friend from Onondaga [Mr. Alvord], Corning, Daly, Duganne, Field, Fuller, Hale, Harris, contrary to his usual amiability, is pressing this Ketcham, Krur, Ludington, Mattice, Merwin, Op- matter I think a little too far. I think Monday dyke, A. J. Parker, C. E. Parker, Pohd, Presser, morning is a little too early for a call of the House. Schell, Schumaker, Seymour, Silvester, Strong, I think the delegates ought to be permitted to go Tappen, S. Townsend, Van Cott-33. home and spend the Sabbath with their families, Mr. SILVESTElR- Is it in order to ask leave and if this call should be made in the middle of of absence for Mr. Carpenter? the week, it might very well be made and could The PRESIDENT pro tern.-It is not now in be made with a great deal more propriety. But order. we must expect members to go home, in fact they The sergeant-at-arms was directed to clear the will go home and spend the Sabbath. I intend galleries and lobbies and to close the doors, and to go home and spend the Sabbath if it is possible see that no member was allowed to come in or go for me to do so, and I know-the gentleman from out. Onondaga [Mr. Alvord] intends to go home Mr. FLAGLER —I wish to ask leave of ab- and spend the Sabbath; but if members are sence — found absent in the middle of the week, it may The PRESIDENT pro tem. —Tile Chair will be well enough to call the roll, and fine those inform the gentleman tlat no leave of absence or who are not here; but early on Monday morning, 91 722 before the first train can arrive here from,the city of New York, when persons cannot go home and return unless they take the "owl train" to get here, I think it is premature, unwise and unfair, and I think I might say petty. It is very small indeed early on Monday morning to call the roll and insist on members being here early in the morning. It is impossible for some of them to get here; and if Judge Strong, for instance, had gone home to spend the Sabbath it would have been impossible for him to get back here this morning; and so with other members, if they went hore it would be impossible for them to get here. I know of members who have been called home to attend the sick bed of relatives, and one, Mr. Develin, for instance, who has been called to attend the deathbed of the Rev. Dr. Ives; and there are other instances; I myself would not object to being fined if I was away in the middle of the week, but certainly I should object if I was fined on the roll being called early on Monday morning. I just got here this morning by the skin of my teeth, All we want to show is, that there is certainly a desire on the part of the members of this Convention to do some business, if they have a quorum here, but there is no necessity for calling the Convention so early on Monday morning. I do not think any good will arise from it. Mr. ALVORD - The gentleman from Kings [Mr. Schumaker], says the gentleman from Onondaga [Mr. Alvord] would like to go home and spend the Sabbath. I will ask the gentleman to look at the record of this Convention, and see if he can find whether the gentleman from Onondaga [Mr. Alvord], has been absent on one single day, if he has not been here each and every day the Convention has set, and has not answered to the roll call every time. Mr. SCHUMAKER - Where do you attend.church on tie Sabbath? Mr. ALVORD -At home. sometimes. Mr. SCHUMAKER -I am very glad to hear it. Mr. ALVORD - Sometimes I go home on Sunday, and every time I go home I leave here at six o'clock in the evening on Saturday and leave home again at twelve o'clock the evening of Sunday and get here in time to perform my duties as a member of this Convention, and if I was unable to do that I should stay here in the city of Albany to be ready to come here and attend to my duties as a member of the Convention when Monday morning session opened. It virtually.resolves itself into this: that, under the pretense of men living on the Hudson river down below here, it is necessary for them, above all other portions of the people of the State to go home on Sunday, while we from the country are compelled to come here and have only four days' session in the week. I want those gentlemen to do what is fair and right. If they, have got the power and strength, let them come into this Convention, and pass a resolution to resolve that in this Convention there will be four sessions each week, from the beginning to the end of it, and yet pretend to put their hands into the treasury of this State, and take pay for seven days' work instead of four. That is what I am in favor of. There is not a single one of those men who has not persistently absented himself from his duties every Thursday or Friday up to the succeeding Monday or Tuesday morning; but every one of them go to the paymaster and get their pay for the entire amount of the time in which they have pretended thus to exercise their power and use their time in favor of the interests of the State. I am opposed to anything of this kind. Let them say that their duties here as members of the Convention are such that they necessarily can be performed in four days, and let them so put it in the record, and let us act understandingly in regard to the matter in the future. I wish to sav in answer to the gentleman from Albany [Mr. A. J. Parker], who, I understand, says that two of his colleagues are not present on account of illness-there is no difficulty about it whatever when the time shall come for these gentlemen to appear before the bar of this Convention, and having expressed themselves in that direction, that illness hlas kept them away, all idea of contenpt is wiped away from them. Mr. A. J. PI'AlIKTR —I will say they are utterly unable to come here. Mr. ALVORD-I understand that. The sergeant-at-arms will report tlhat to the Conveftion and that will be their excuse. I will answer the gentleman in that regard, that if they are unable to be here, and are detained by illness, that they will be excused in consequence of their absence, and they would not be compelled to be brought here on a litter even. Mr. A. J. PARKER -I was perfectly aware of that before. Mr. ALVORD - Then it is no reason why this call should be suspended, because they are not placed in any danger whatever by the operation of the call. Another thing, the gentleman from Kings [Mr. Schumaker] mentions the case of the honorable gentleman from New York. Mr. Develin. Mr. Develin went away from here early last week, and he could have risen up in his place before this Convention and stated the reason for his absence and been excused. Mr. SCHUMAKER- He asked me to do that for him, but I went away too. Mr. ALVORD - Then all I have to say in regard to that matter is, that if the gentleman from Kings [Mr. Schumaker] absented himself from his duties in this Convention he did wrong to this Convention; and if he failed to do that which his friend desired him to do, then he did wrong to his friend, and he should not get up, having committed a wrong in his own person, and ask us to permit others who have been recreant to their duty, to get away without just punishment for their misdeeds. It strikes me there is no sort of difficulty whatever in carrying this call to its completion, by remaining in session a short time longer, and about twelve o'clock, or a little thereafter, there comes up a train from the city of New York, in which those gentlemen who do not desire to ride in the "owl" train or in the midnight train, which we men in the western part of the State have to do, will be enabled, and will have an opportunity, if they get up early enough, to get here in time to make a quorum of this Convention and when they have done so, we can put on record those who have absented themselves from 723 the duties of this Convention, and we can go on with our ordinary business, dissolving the call. Something has been said about the fact (I believe by my friend from Kings) [Mr. Van Cott] that we went on to excuse some gentlemen on Friday and Saiturday, from their attendance, and he said that if we had not excused them we would have had a quorum. Those gentlemen performed a duty they owed to the Convention, in getting up in their places and giving reasons, and asking to be excused from attendance. They were only about thirty in number, but there are about eighty gentlemen who have absented themselves from their duties in this Convention without any excuse whatever, and without even asking-they have not condescended to do that much-to get up and say for thehi business or pleasure, or the sickness of their friends, or on account of any inability, physical or otherwise, they are unable to perform their duties here which caused them to retire from the Convention, and therefore they ask leave to be excused. Those thirty men who were excused performed their duty, and the balance have not performed their duty. I hold it to be the duty of every member ot this Convention, whllether we shall be left without a quorum or not, if he intends to absent himself from his duties in the Convention, that he should, either througlh his own act or the act of his friends, ask the permission of this Convention t!hus to absent himself. In the neighboring State of Michigan they have a Constitutional Convention now il session. They have adopted a rule which we ought to have adopted in the lirst instance. There the roll is called every day upon the meeting of the Convention, and gentlemen are compelled to answer to their names or to be excused, and if not answering then they are, tinder the rule of the Convention. in contempt of the Convention. If we had had such a wise and salutary rule in the first instance there would be no difficulty whatever, and we would have had a quorum during every day of our proceedings. Another thing, the gentleman from Kings [Mr. Schumaker] says he is in favor of a call in lle middle of the week. It may be the gentleman from Kings [Mr. Schumaker] absents himself in the middle of the week, but it is none the less true that from Tuesday morning until about Friday at one o'clock, there is no necessity for a call of the Convention, unless it is necessary to bring the great genius, and eloquence, and intelligence, of the gentleman fiom Kings [Mr. Schumaker] back into the Convention, in order that we may carry on our business better, and have better articles to place before the people, for there are more than eighty-one of us then here, although we have inot the same transcendental ability of the gentlemen who see fit to absent themselves in the middle of the week, to aid us in our deliberations. There is no necessity whatever for a call in the middle of the week, for we have the power in the Convention to go on with our business. Now let me say another tiling. On Saturday last we had the interesting mattter of the organization of the Legislature up for consideration. Gentlemen bad spoken, and I believe I have the record of the Secretary to bear me out in saying that thirty-nine speeches have been made on this subject, varying from twelve to twenty minutes in duration. The entire speaking talent of the few gentlemen who were left il thle body of the Convention was exhauisted, but in consequence of the absence of a large portion of the Convention, some seventy, I believe at that time, or almost eighty, and by the great hardslip it would be to those gentlemen who have thus absented themselves, that they could not make thirty-nine other speeches, and give thirty-nine other reasons why they should go this way or tiat way, we here, who had thus exhausted all our brains in tle argument of the question, kindly and considerately agreed that we would put that question over in order to give those gentlemen time to come here and re-hash this whole matter before us, and so it will be from week's end to week's end, and here we have been frittering away the time of this Convention down to this moment, with tile most important matters yet to come before us, which should require at our hands a full and large discussion, and we have only a few more weeks remaining between us and the ides of November. If it is the persistent opinion, and if it is the persistent intention, of many men in this Convention that nothing shal be done, that there shall be nothing perfected, or so illy perfected that it will assuredly meet the opposition of the people at the polls, in regard to our work and labor here, they are taking the right course, they are taking just exactly the course to carry out their views and their conclusions to their legitimate end, but if they do really and honestly mean that we shall perfect a reformed Constitution here, such as in our opinion shall commend itself to the eople, and they desire, after that shall have been done, that we shall go up to the peoleo and endeavor to also effect the people in that regard to their better interests in the future, we have got work to do, tile responsibility of which we should no longer shirk, rand the time for the performance of which we should husband, under the circumstances, with almost miserly care, and it is for this reason, among tlhe other reasons which I have given, that I do, for one, desire that this call shall be pushed to its legitimate conclusion. I know, as well as any man knows, that the simple amount of the pecuniary fines that we might impose on these men, the fact that you make them come up before the body of this Convention and give their excuses, might not operate to affect them in the future, in regard to their attendance here; but, sir, the fact that there is a press in this country, the fact that the people, throughout the length and breadtl of the State, are already looking with suspicion upon the acts of men with regard to this Constitution, the fact that the people dernand of us, their servants, that we should work and labor, we having been chosen and appointed for that purpose, and the fact that you will get back from the press, throughout the length and breadth of the State, their disapprobation of the course they have pursued here will indgce those men, as they should, to come up to the point in the future and do their work as they ought to do it. The idea which has been propounded, that at the end of last week men had not made their arrangements to get back here. that they had i 724 gone away with the expectation that there would be no enforcement of the resolution which they themselves deliberately agreed to and passed on Friday last, is all the merest nonsense in the world. These men have again and again and again gone away, and they will do it till the very last end of the sessions of this Convention, unless we determine clearly and unmistakably by our action, that what they have been doing is wrong, and we shall hold them up to the disapprobation of the people of this State. Mr. CORNING —I do not rise, sir, to make a speech, but simply, if it be in order, to move that the call be suspended, and upon that I ask the previous question. The question was then put on ordering the previous question, and, on a division, it was declared carried by a vote of twenty-eight to sixteen. Thle PRESIDENT pro tern. announced the question to be on the motion to suspend the call of the Convention. Mr. LAPIHAM-Is that motion in order? The PRESIDENT pro tem.- The Chair is of the opinion that it is. Mr. LAPHAM-The Convention has just taken a vote on the same subject. The PRESIDENT pro tern.- But some business hastaken place since. Tie galleries have been cleared and the roll has been called. The ayes and noes were called for on tlhe motion to suspend thle call of the Convention. A sufficient number having seconded the call, the ayes and noes were ordered. The question was then put on the motion of Mr. Corning, and it was declared lost. Mr. MERRILL-I move that the call of the absentees be proceeded with, to find out who are absent. I desire to inquire whether it would be within the province of those present to pass a resolution putting absent members in contempt before we obtain a quorum. The PRESIDENT pro tern.- The Chair is of hle opinion that as soon as a quorum is obtained the Convention can make some special direction. Mr. MERRITT-If my memory serves me, a fill Convention gave authority to the minority, in case a call was made, to impose all the penalties that would be imposed by the full Convention, and I would ask whether that could be done? The PRESIDENT pro ternm. -There was such aresolution offered, but the Chair is not aware that it was adopted. Mr. LAPHAM- I call the attention of the Chair to the thirty-fourth rule. The whole subject is regulated by that rule. It gives to the members.present full power. The SECRETARY proceeded with the call of the absentees. Mr. BICKFORD-I would like to know whether tile call of the absentees includes all that are absent, or only those who are absent without leave. The PRESIDENT pro tern. - Only those absent without leave. The SECRETARY proceeded to call the names of the absentees, and the following gentlemen were found to be absent: Messrs. C. L. Allen, Archer, Armstrong, Axtell, -Beadle, Beals, Burrill, Carpenter, Cassidy, Cheri tree, Cochran, Colahan, Comstock, Corbett, Develin, Eddy, Evarts, Farnum, Fowler, Francis, Frank, Fullerton, Garvin, Gerry, Gross, Hardenburgh, Hiscock, Houston, Huntington. Hutchins, Jarvis, Kerla:, Larremoro, Law, A. R Lawrence, Lee, Lowrey, Magee, Maste,, Mc Donald, Monell, Morris, Murphy, Nelson, Paige, President, Robertson, Rogers, Rolfe, Roy, A. D. Russell, Scloonmaker, Sheldon, Shermanl, Stratton, Tilden, M. I. Towisend, Tucker, Weed, Wickham, Williams, Young-62. Mr. ALVORD-I move that the warrant of this Convention, signed by the President, be issued to the sergeant-at-arms, with instructions to proceed within the limits of this city and endeavor to get enough to make a quorum. Mr. KRUM - I move to amend by striking out tlie city of Albany and inserting the city and State of New York. Mr. SEYMIOUR —I wish to inquire whether any excuse can now be received. The PRESIDENT pro tem.-The Chair is of the opinion that an excuse may be received. Mr. SEYMOUR - I hope the President will not order the issuing of the warrant until we shall hear excuses by some members present in regard to some members who are absent. Mr. LAPHAM- I propose an amendment to the resolution, that the members absent on this call without leave forfeit their pay for the day, unless a satisfactory excuse be given. Tile PRESIDENT pro ter. - Tle Chair is of tile opinion that that cannot be entertained, inasmuch as there is no quorum present Tlre Chair construes rule 34 differently from the gentleman from Ontario [Mr. Lapham], to wit: that it only in the first instance empowers the minority to secure a quorum. Mr. LAPHAM- Rule 34 is as follows: "In cases of the absence of a quorum at any session of the Convention, the members present may take such measures as they may deem necessary to secure the presence of a quorum, and may inflict such censure as they may deem just on those who, on being called on for that purpose, shall render no sufficient excuse for their absence." The PRESIDENT pro tem. - Censure can be inflicted only on those wlho, being called on, render no sufficient excuse. They must first be brought in before they can be called on for an excuse. Mr. DALY - I hope this motion will not prevail. The PRESIDENT pro tern. - Tle Chair rules it out of order. Mr. SEYMOUR-I move, as an amendment to the amendment which has just been proposed, the following exceptions: " Except as to members absent for whom excuses satisfactory to the Convention shall be given." Mr. ALVORD - With the consent of the gentleman from Schoharie [Mr. Krum], who has amended my proposition, and for the purpose, as I understand the President to rule, if there. are any who, within the knowledge of members, should be excused, I will withdraw it for the purpose of having such excuses offered for those who shall be excused before the warrant is issued. I understand the President to say that now these gentlemen, being in contempt prima facie, it 725 is competent on the part of the Convention now great deal of sacrifice, has made it a point to visit present here to excuse portions of those gentle- his homr every week during the sessions of this men, if they see tit to. Convention, and I know it must be in consequence The PRESIDENTpro ter. - That is the opinion of her illness that he is not here at this hout, of the Chair. and for that reason I ask that he be excused. Mr. ALVORD-I then ask consent to with- The question was put on excusing Mr.!HouSdraw my motion. ton, and it was declared carried. The resolution was withdrawn. Mr. SILVESTER- I ask that Mr. Carpenter, Mr. ALVORD -I ask that the President of of Dutchess, be excused. He is a United States this Convention - whom we all know went away Assessor of that district, and his official business from here very ill and who lias also written rendered it necessary for him to go home on here that he continues to be quite ill, but is slowly Saturday last. He will undoubtedly be here on recovering and ii possible wilt be with us to-mor- the first train that can reach here. and for that row morning-be excused for his non-attendance reason I ask that he be excused. this morning. Mr. ALVORD - I hope lie will not be excused The question was put on the motion of Mr. if he is a United States Assessor. He has no Alvord, and it was declared carried. business to take his position here as a member of Mr. A. J. PARKER-I ask that Mr. Cassidy the Convention without understanding he was and Mr. Roy be excused, for I know they are to perform certain duties. He cannot serve two both ill and unable to attend. They have been masters. detained for a number of days. I have seen Mr. Mr. SILVESTER - I do not know that he has Cassidy myselfand, I know that he is sick, and I attempted to serve two masters. He has enask, therefore, that he be excused. deavored to do his duty here, and he left here The question was put on excusing Mr. Cassidy, on Saturday, expecting to be here by the first and it was declared carried. train this morning, and will undoubtedly be here; The question was put on excusing Mr. Roy, and and he had no idea probably, like other members it was declared carried, here, that any call of the house would be made Mr. T. W. DWIGHT - I ask an excuse for Mr. at so early an hour in the morning, especially as Livingston, of Kings county. He was called we meet at ten o'clock instead of eleven. away to attend to the distribution of some trust Mr. KETOHAM — I rise to a question of order, funds, which it was necessary to send out by the that we cannot hear anything for the dumping of Saturday's steamer to Europe, and asked me to coal in the cellar, and I hope the dumping of the apply for an excuse for him. coal in the cellar will be suspended. Mr. ALVORD -I hope that will not obtain, Mr. HALE -I would say in behalf of Mr. Carbecause it it was to be sent out by the Saturday's penter, that few members have been more consteamer, that steamer has already gone. stant in their attendance on this body than he The PRESIDENT pro tern. -The Chair will has, and I have no doubt his absence is necesinform the gentleman that Mr. Livingston is absent sary at this time. on leave. The question was put on excusing Mr. CarpenMr. SC HUMAKER - I move that Mr. Develin ter, and it was declared carried, on a division, by a he purged of contempt. I neglected to make Mr. vote of 30 to 24. Develit's excuse in time, but he exhibited, I Mr. GREELEY -I desire to say in behalf of think, to the President, a telegram showing that Mr. Martin I. Townsend that he left this city at the Dr. Ives was sick, and I move that Mr. Develin close of our session on Saturday to visit a relative be purged of contempt. in the town of Great Barrington, and he certainly Mr. BICKFORD -I want to know whether he will be as early as he can be in his place, I supwas a relative of Mr. Develin? pose at one o'clock. I know he intended to Mr. SCHUMAKER - Suppose you telegraph to return as soon as possible, and I think it ought to find out. I was shown a telegram from a gentle- be known why he is absent. man to Mr. Develin, which read this way: "Your Mr. ALVORD- Do I understand the gentlefriend, Dr. Ives, is dying." I suppose if a man man as saying that he is absent on a visit? leaves this Contvenltion to attend the bedside of Mr. GREELEY- He went to see a relative his dying friend, lie can be excused. That is all Mr. SEYMOUR- I wish to say in connection I have to say. Whether he is a full-blooded with the absence of Mr. Townsend, that I know cousin or not, I do not know. he intended to be here on this day as soon as he Mr. DALY-I beg leave to say on that subject can arrive. I know that he went to see a relatlat Mr. Develin, tc my personal knowledge, is a tive, a member of the family who was taken to very intimate personal friend of the gentleman the country on account of ill health. I move that whois lying on his death bed, and I hope this he be excused. Convention will consider that particular case a Mr. C. C. DVIGHT —I wish to make a mosufficient reason why lie should be excused. tion. We have, as I understand, voted to excuse The question was put on excusing Mr. Develin, Mr. Carpenter of Dutchess for, as I conceive, no and it was declared carried. excuse whatever, and no pretense or excuse — Mr. LUDINGTON-I ask that my colleague, simply that he was absent, and it was conjectured Mr. Houston, may bo ptlrged of ite contempt that he might be away on important business; and I lie may be in. It is well knvownv that few dele- think, after that, wo cannot refuse to excuse any gates of this Convention have been more punc. member, and I move, therefore, that all mnembers tual in this Convention than lie. I know he has who under this call would be in contempt, shall a. wife in very ill health, so much so that he, at a be excused. 726 Mr. ALVORDD-I ask the ayes and noes on seven o'clock in the morning. The larger portion that question. of the absentees are from that end of the State. Mr. DALY-There are several gentlemen of If this Convention chooses to give up the Monday the New York delegation who are detained, to my session, very well. If it chooses to make a later knowledge, by important business, but I do not hour of meeting on that day, very well. But to feel justified in asking for their excuse for that abandon this proceeding now is to publish to the reason. I have had some experience in past years State that we do not care whether members are of the effect of a motion of this kind, and my ob- here or not, but that they can take their pay, go jection to it is, that it fails in obtaining the object off and practice law, or sit as judges in court, or aimed at. I entertain quite as earnestly as the act as commissioners or collectors of internal other gentlemen in this Convention the desire revenue, and come back here whenever it is con. that such measures should be taken as will venient, and not (as they think) inconsistent with secure the attendance of members, but the their duties elsewhere. It does seem to me that practical effect of a call of the House can if we abandon this proceeding now we abandon extend no further than the territorial limits of all hope of keeping a quorum here, except when this city. As has been already suggested, to send it shall suit the convenience of members, and I the sergeant-at-arms all over the State would be therefore hope that this Convention will not abanfollowed by no other result, but that of compelling don this call, upon which we have entered, but the members to remain in the position they are will carry it out to some practical result. now in until the officer returns. There is also Mr. TAPPEN -I shall have, sir, to take very this additional consideration. It has never yet high moral grounds in responding to the gentlebeen determined that a body of this character man from Westchester [Mr. Greeley]. Ile says has the power to order an arrest at all. In that gentlemen can leave the city of New York my opinion it has, but the existence of any such on Sunday evening, and arrive here Monday mornpower has been doubted by very good lawyers. ing. Well, sir, the Sabbath does lnot terminate I would add the still further consideration so early in the day. and I do not like to compel that this is at a season of the year my associates who reside in that or any other when most persons are at leisure. Our duties portion of the State to violate their moral feelings during the discussion upon the suffrage and conscientiousness to travel upon the Sabbath question were exceedingly arduous - I speak in order to reach the city on the Monday followof my own personal experience. We at- ing. With regard to some remarks which have tended here for four days in the week, and we been made in this chamber by other gentlemen, went into committee at nine o'clock in the morn- it seems to be desired to fix upon the public mind ing and then attended three sessions of this body the idea that all the absentees come from that part extending to nine o'clock in the evening, an of the State where the county of Kings and the amount of physical labor exceedingly severe, and city of New York are located. In looking around much more than is usual for the discharge of any this chamber, sir, I see vacant seats whose usual ordinary public duty, and it is very natural that occupants are from all parts of the State. I have gentlemen should desire to get away for the short in my mind's eye particularly the case of one recreation, which will be afforded by casual visits gentleman who I think had taken a house in the to their homes during a part of Saturday and the city of Albany, and who had been here every day whole of Sunday. I supposed when the hour was from the 4th of June to this time, even staying fixed at one o'clock for adjournment, it was with a in the city with his family during the recess early view of enabling gentlemen to leave early, and it in July, but from some unforeseen cause he is will be but reasonable to allow sufficient time for absent this morning; and I think it would be a them to return without compelling them to travel piece of injustice in regard to him as well as to upon the Sabbath. In my judgment, a much more others to vote upon them the censure of this effectual and moral means of securing the attend- Convention. I trust this motion will prevail, and ance of members, would be to publish in the news- that all will be excused, but if i:, does not prepapers, on occasions like this, the names of vail I hope that this Convention will excuse my members who are absent upon the call of the colleague from Westchester [Mr. Cochran], whose roll, and this would have some effect. My objec- punctual attendance must have been noticed by tion to this motion is that it is not practicable-that every member of this body. it will not accomplish the purpose which it is Mr. C. C. DWIGHT-I was surprised to hear intended to effect. I therefore, as the result of the gentleman from Westchester [Mr. Greeley] the motion already passed upon has shown oppose the motion which I had the honor to an unwillingness on the part of the Conven- make, when but a few moments before he asked for tion to suspend the call, shall support the an excuse for a very distinguished member of this motion of the gentleman from Cayuga [Mr. C. C. Convention upon no other ground than that he had Dwight], that all persons absent be excused. I left this city suddenly last week for the purpose think when we propose, hereafter, to have a call of making a visit to a relation in tle county of of the Convention, we should fix our meeting on Berkshire in the State of Massachusetts. Monday at such a time as will allow those who Mr. GREELEY - I beg to correct the gentleleave on Saturday a reasonable time to return, man. I did not ask for an excuse, I simply stated Mr. GREELEY - From the city of New York, the fact. there are two modes of reaching this place every The PRESIDENT pro tern. -The gentleman Sunday evening. Yon can start by boat at from Westchester expressly said lie merely stated aix P. M. or by a train-which has good sleeping- the fact. cars attached-at eleven p. Mt, and arrive here by Mr. C. C. DWIGHT — But no reference to the :727 fact could have been made, except by way of an excuse for the gentleman from Rensselaer [Mr. M. I. Townsend], and I should like to know whether any member of this Convention will grant an excuse upon such grounds. Mr. SILVESTER -I hope the motion of the gentleman from Cayuga [Mr. C. C. Dwight] may prevail, and I think, especially under the circumstances this morning, it would be eminently proper that we should grant universal amnesty in this case. Mr. FULLER- I hope the motion of the gentleman from Cayuga [Mr. C. C. Dwight] will not prevail. I was not in favor of continuing this call; I did not think it was best; but having begun it, I think we are bound to go through with it. I would not make boy's play of this business, but having commenced, we should carry it through and make it effectual. Mr. S. TOWNSEND —I understand that the gentleman from Rensselaer [Mr. M. I. Townsend] has gone to visit a relative who was sick, and I understand the gentleman from Cayuga [Mr. C. C. Dwight] to say that was no good reason. I think that is a very good reason, and somewhat analogous to the case of the gentleman from New York [Mr. Develin] who was excused upon that ground. Mr. SEYMOUR-I would state in relation to fr. Townsend, that he went away on Saturday, after the close of our session, to visit a member of his family, a relative who was taken into the country on account of ill health under the advice of a physician, and I know he has gone to visit that person. Mr. ALVORD- I would like to know how far it is to Berkshire county? Looking around me I see a number of others from the gentleman's county who are absent, and I would inquire if he can make excuses for them. Mr. SEYMOUR-I will state to the gentleman from Onondaga [Mr. Alvord], that when the case of my other colleagues comes up, I will be prepared, if they have any good excuse to present it to the Convention; but I desired to state this in reference to Mr. Townsend, as I believe he has a good excuse. Mr. OPDYKE - I hope the motion of the gentleman from Cayuga [Mr. C. C. Dwight] will prevail I voted against entering upon this call in the conviction that it would do no good, and only waste our time; but a majority of the Convention differed from me in judgment, and I have no doubt they considered the subject more wisely than I did; and now, having commenced the call, it seems to me if we stop here it will be trifling, and show an infirmity of purpose and a vascillation on the part of the Convention which would not redound to its credit, and I hope it will be persisted in. Mr. C. C. DWIGHT — I made this motion because I thought I saw in the precedent which had been set by the Convention, a disposition to excuse everybody, with or without an excuse; but I see now a gratifying intention on the part of members to take another course, and I therefore withdraw the motion I made. The questiun was then put on excusing Mr. M. I. Townsend, and it was declared carried, on a division, by a vote of 33 to 22. Mr. HALE-I move that this call be suspended until half-past seven o'clock this evening. Mr. ALVORD - I rise to a point of order, that if the call is suspended until half-past seven o'clock, it is suspended entirely. The PRESIDENT pro t m. - The Chair is of that opinion. Mr. ALVORD -And, therefore, no motion can be entertained except to suspend the call. Mr. HALE - I will withdraw the motion. Mr. ROOT-I ask that Mr. Lee be excused. He received a telegram that a member of his family was very ill and he must return home. The PRESIDENT pro term. -The Chair would state to the Convention that he saw Mr. Lee on his way to the cars, and he informed him he had just received a telegram saying that his brotherin-law was dead. The question was then put upon excusing Mr. Lee, and it was declared carried. Mr. TAPPEN-I move Mr. Cochran be excused. He has been a most attentive member of this Convention, having been present every day from the 4th of June, and not absent a single day, and it would be unjust to him, considering his prompt and faithful attendance, for this Convention to now say that lie is willfully absent. Mr. MERRITT-I would like to ask the gentleman whether his colleague is not now in this city? I am so informed. Mr. TAPPEN —I say that from some:unforeseen cause lie is not in his seat this morninrg. Mr. HARRIS -I did not desire to take any part in this farce, but I will state for the information of the Convention that Mr. Cochran is at the door. lIe arrived just too late to get in and is waiting to be admitted whenever the Convention shall see fit to receive him. Mr. POND - I move that the absentees who have not been excused be excused-in other words, I wish to renew the motion of the gentleman from Cayuga [Mr. C. C. Dwight], and in support of that motion I will say as several gentlemen here have said they opposed the original motion for the call; but since it was carried they have changed their minds and are now in favor of en. forcing a call of the house. I can say that I opposed the original motion for a call and I still am of the opinion that it is better now to suspend it and better to take the back track just as quick as we can and thus extricate ourselves from the difficulty we are now in. I think, sir, it is unwise and improper to make this call of the Convention on Monday morning and at this hour. I do not be; believe it is right exactly to hold members of this Convention to such a rigid rule that they shall stay in the city of Albany over Sunday, when they can by the facilities afforded by the public means of conveyance go home and spend the Sunday at home, and arrive here on Monday at such a time as will not prevent a session on the evening of that day. I think we ought to allow to members of this Convention that privilege, and I disagree entirely with my friend from Onondaga [Mr. Alvord] who wants to hold to such a rigid rule as to make a call of this Convention so early Monday morning and to put every member in contempt who is not here. I think my friend is a little too rigid, because he has heretofore been in 728 tile practice of administering those rules and he authority of the Convention's sake, and for the has therefore got into the habit of enforcing them sake of the very important trusts which are convery stringently. I do not sympathize with him mitted to us. and in the discharge of which we at all in this respect. I see no object in a call of cannot proceed unless we have this control over this Convention on Monday at such an early hour. the presence of the members of this Convention. I say it does not comport with the dignity of this Mr. TAPPEN- I desire to renew my motion Convention, without any notice to members to that Mr. Cochran be excused, and move that he that effect, to tine or hold every man in be now admitted. contempt who is not here at ten o'clock on Mon- Mr. FIELD- I understand that Mr. Cochran day morning. It has been well said by the has been in town all the time, and was here half gentleman from New York [Mr. Daly] that this an hour before the Convention met, and it strikes Convention passed a resolution late in the week me if Mr. Cochran is admitted he can better make for adjourning on Saturday for the very purpose his own excuse than any other person can do it of allowing members the privilege of going home, for him. and I think if we permit them to go home on Mr. OPDYKE - I suppose it would be in Saturday, it is wrong not to permit them to come accordance with the rules if I offer an amendment back here on Monday morning without requiring that Mr. Cochran be now admitted and asked for on their part a breach of the law that forbids his excuse. traveling upon the Sabbath. It is proper that Mr. POND -I will withdraw my motion until they should have an opportunity to reach their that is done. places here in this Convention at a proper time Mr. BICKFORD - I would, if in order, move and as soon as they can on Monday morning, and that the doors be opened and all who are ready to I am opposed to this whole matter of a call at come in be permitted to come in and make this time, and I am not convinced by any of the excuses if they can. reasons which have been put forth that it is Mr. ALVORD-I would ask the gentleman proper. I think it is unfair and unjust to from Jefferson [Mr. Bickford] and the gentleman those members who are absent, and I also from New York [Mr. Opdyke] what they mean hope they will be excused for the further by opening the doors and letting all come in. If reason which have been assigned, that prac-they make the proposition that the sergeant-attically it will be out of our power to get them arms be directed to go outside and find what here by enforcing this call any sooner than they members are in attendance knocking at the will come without it. If you send the sergeant- door, and arrestirg them and bring them in, it will at-arms for them, and we stay here until they perhaps be correct; but to open the doors to Mr. get back, you will find that every gentleman will Cochran will be to allow everybody else to come render a good excuse for his absence, and will be in. excused, and that we shall have spent the time Mr. KETCHAM- I desire to renew the motion and the call in vain. of the gentleman from Saratoga, to purge all Mr. VAN COTT - I hope this resolution will members now absent or by implication declared not prevail. We were in a position this morning in contempt by the action of the Convention. I in which we could have passed over in silence the believe it was stated when the resolution was absence of those members, and I was in favor, adopted providing for an adjournment at one under the circumstances, of taking no notice of o'clock P. Ai. on Saturday, instead of two o'clock, it. I think, however, we are no longer in that that it would enable many members to go home, position, and I hope the gentlemen who deter- and in pursuance of this apparent invitation of mined upon a call of the Convention will now the Convention, members have gone home and have the courage to proceed with it to the end. have not yet had the opportunity to return, except I was opposed to the call while the matter was by traveling on the Sabbath, so that by the course in the choice of the Convention; but I am now we are pursuing we insist upon a breach of the in favor of going to the extremity of the call. We Sabbath, which I do insist is improper. I therecertainly ought to have it in our power to have fore renew the motion of the gentleman from a quorum here to proceed with our business; but Saratoga [Mr. Pond], and hope that a vote will we shall never have it in our power morally to be taken on it, and that it be by ayes and noes. call this Convention and enforce the call if we I do not like the Convention to appear to be stop again to-day. I was here a fortnight ago requiring members to violate the laws of God and when it was attempted and then we stopped in the State by traveling on Sunday. the midst of the call, and it proved utterly ineffec- Mr. BELL-I understand that by a recent order tual. I am here again to-day, and it is proposed of the Convention, which was adopted after to Stop again. These gentlemen took advantage thorough discussion, we decided to commence our of our former failure, and they will take advantage daily sessions at ten o'clock A. At., and at two of this. The majority who ordered the call are o'clock P. M. take a recess to half-past seven here, and if they have the courage can proceed o'clock P. M. This was to be the standing rule on with it, and gentlemen who opposed it are now this subject, except as to Fridays and SaturdIays. added to the majority, and we now insist that the The rule regulating our sittings on those dayiS is self-respect of this Convention and its authority that on each alternate Saturday we are to adjourn over these members shall be maintained, and after at one o'clock P. M. to ten o'clock A. Mt. on the next we have gone to the point where gentlemen can Monday, and on each alternate Fridny we are to make their own excuses in person, I shall be glad adjourn to half-past seven o'clock IP. MI. on the to listen to their excuses with indulgence. Let succeeding Monday. us go to that point for self-respect's sake, for the Mr. VAN CAMPEN-I trust thL motion of tht 729 gentleman from Wayne [Mr. Ketcham] will not prevail. I ask the gentlemen in this house in Convention that they do not allow this thing to be characterized as a farce. It is due to the dignitv and the authority of this Convention that this call shall be maintained at least until we have a quorum. I slall certainly have shame upon my cheek if it be abandoned at this time. Mr. SMITH -I hope this motion will not prevail. It is the first time that I have voted in favor of a measure of this kind, but having gone thus far, it seems to me we cannot preserve our dignity and self-respect, and secure in the fiture the attendance of members, if we retrace our steps. There has been enough of Chinese thunder on this subject already. When members accepted a nomination to this body, they pledged themselves that if elected they would perform their duties as delegates, and would attend its sessions. But it is well known to members who are present, that many who have been elected to this body have absented themselves from day to day, whenever their convenience or business called them away. We have repeatedly found ourselves without a quorum, and been unable to proceed with our business. There has been, as suggested by the gentleman from Kings [Mr. Van Cott], a flourish of trumpets, but it has never amounted to anything. We have substantially made proclamation by our proceedings on this subject that we were not in earnest, and it hias brought the Convention into contempt. Absentees pay no attention to us, or our proceedings against Ithem. I have come here myself repeatedly, from a sense of duty, and under threatened calls of the Convention, at considerable personal inconvenience, and to the neglect of other duties, when there has not been a quorum, and we were unable to proceed with the business of the Convention. The public are uneasy, and the entire body has to suffer for the delinquencies of these members who constantly absent themselves. It seems to me tlat, having entered upon this call with a view of enforcing our rules, if we desire to maintain our self respect, and secure the attendance of members in the future, we must not retrace our steps. If we hesitate now and stop with a mere flourish of trumpets as o)n former similar occasions, all future efforts to enforze our rules will be vain. I insist that we shall maintain our position and proceed with this call. If absent members have good excuses, the Convention will receive them; but they should not be permitted to absent themselves with impunity, delay the proceedings of the Convention, and bring the whole body into contempt. Mr. MERRILL - I presume that this Convention have made up their minds upon this question, and I therefore move the previous question. The question was then put upon ordering the previous question and it was declared carried. The question was then put on the motion of Mr. Ketcham and it was declared lost by the following vote: Ayes-Messrs. Baker, Ballard, Bowen, Conger, Daly, Hale, Ketcham, Krumi Mattice, A. J. Parker, Pon4,.Sohell, Schumaker, Silvester, Strong, S. Townsend-16. 92 Noes —Messrs. A. F. Allen, N. M. Allen, Alvord, Andrews, Barker, Bell, Bickford, E. A. Brown, W. C. Brown. Case, Champlain, Chesobro, Clark, Clinton. Cooke, Corning, Duganne, C. C. Dwight, T. W. Dwight, Field, Flagler, Folger, Fuller, Gould, Graves, Greeley, Hadley, Hammond, Hitchcock, Kinney, Lapham, A. Lawrence, M. H. Lawrence Ludington, Merrll, Merritt, Merwin, Opdyke, C. E. Parker, Potter. Presser, Rathbun, Root, Rumsey, A. D. Russell, Seaver, Seymour, Smith, Spencer, Tappen, Van Campen, Van Cott, Wakeman, Wales-54. Mr. ALVORD-For the purpose of bringing this matter to a close, it seems to me that we have gone far enough now in the direction in which gentlemen have gone to determine that this call shall be proceeded with. I, therefore, take the liberty to move that all persons not now within the bar of this Convention and not excused, be declared in contempt, and that the warrant of th.3 PresidentMr. SEYMOUR-Will the gentleman permit me to present an excuse? Mr. ALVORD-No, I will not-and that the warrant of this Convention by its President be issued and the sergeant-at-arms be directed to take the warrant and confine its execution to the limits of the city of Albany for the present, as I understand, within a few moments the cars will arrive, which will give us a sufficient number to make a quorum of members in attendance upon the duties of this Convention, and upon this question, I move the previous question. Mr. SEYMOUR -I rise to a point of orderthat this Convention was considering and had decided to hear excuses which might be offered for gentlemen who are absent, and we were proceeding with that, and which was the order of business which was unfinished, and it should be finished before the motion of the gentleman from Onondaga is put. The PRESIDENT pro tem.- The Chair is of opinion that the point of order would have been well taken if earlier made, but the present order of business having been entered upon canot'be superseded except by a reconsideration. Mr. SEYMOUR-I wish to present an excuse - Mr. ALVORD - I rise to a point of order —that no vote was taken by this Convention that excuses should be made, but the Chair decided upon the suggestion of the gentleman that anybody in the Convention could rise up and make excuses, but there was no vote taken at all, and, therefore, it is not any order of business. The PRESIDENT pro tem.-The Chair is informed that the gentleman from Onondaga is correct, and tle point of order is not well taken. Mr. SEYMOUR —I still rise 'to a point of order. I wish to state to the President this state of facts upon a suggestion made --- Mr. ALVORD -I call the gentleman to order. Mr. SEYMOUR -I am speaking to a point of order. Upon the suggestion made to the President we did adopt that order of business, and by consent of the Convention it was adopted, wieh is equivalent to a vote. The PRESIDENT pro tem. -- The Chair understands the point of order, but must overrule it. i 730 Tle question was then put upon ordering the previous question, and it was declared carried, on a division, by a vote of 35 to 23. The PRESIDENT pro tern. announced the question to be on the motion of Mr. Alvord that all absentees not excused are in contempt, and that the President shall issue his order for their arrest. Mr. CHESEBRO - On that I ask the ayes and noes. A sufficient number seconding the call, the ayes and noes were ordered. Mr. COOKI - I would like to inquire whether this motion will subject every person to punishment who has not been specifically excused here to-day, although he may have had leave of absence. The PRESIDENT pro tern.-The Chair is of the opinion that all who have leave of absence are not in contempt. Mr. COOKE-It seems to me from the form of the gentleman's motion it would exclude all who have not been specifically excused. Mr. SEYMOUR-I would ask the Chair if the motion was not that the order be confined to the city of Albany? The PRESIDENT pro tem.-I believe it was. Mr. ALVORD - What I said was, that for the present the sergeant-at-arms be instructed not to go without the limits of the city of Albany. Mr. SEYMOUR -I would inquire whether the desire is that the warrant be issued for all that are absent? Mr. ALVORD - Certainly. Mr. SEYMOUR -I hope the motion will not be carried. The PRESIDENT pro tern. - The Chair understands it in this way, that all members of the Convention not present, and not excused either by leave of absence or by formal excuse here to-day, be declared in contempt, and that the President issue his orders to the sergeant-at-arms for their arrest, and that the sergeant-at-arms be directed not to execute that order except in the vicinity of the capital. The SECRETARY commenced to call the roll. Mr. S. TOWNSEND -I would ask whether the motion is divisible? The PRESIDENT pro tem.- The Chair is of the opinion that it is. Mr. S. TO WNSEND Then I ask it be divided. Mr. ALVORD —I rise to a point of order that the roll has commenced to be called, and it is too late to ask for a division. The PRESIDENT pro tem.-The Chair is of the opinmon that the point of order is well taken. Mr. TAPPEN-I would ask whether it is in order to lay this motion on the table. The PRESIDENT pro tem.-The Chair is of the opinion it is not, the roll having been commenced to be called. Mr. BALLARD-I wish to ask whether the President deems it a legal right existing in this body to arrest absent members for contempt and hold them as prisoners? The PRESIDENT pro tem.-The point of order does not rise at this time. It is not the province of the Chair to instruct the Convention, and gentlemen will vote according to their own legal knowledge in that respect. The President will have to decide that when he comes to issue the warrant, at least in some respects. Mr. S. TOWNSEND-I would suggest to the Chair and the Convention, when about to take so important a step, whether it would be proper to reduce the resolution to precise language in writing? Mr. ALVORD-I call the gentleman to order. The PRESIDENT pro tem.-The gentleman is not in order. The Secretary will proceed with the calling of the roll. The name of Mr. Ballard was called. Mr. BALLAR)D-I ask to be excused from voting, and my reason is that I do not believe that this body - Mr. ALVORD- I rise to a point of order, that from the very terms in which the gentleman began his excuse it is no excuse. The PRESIDENT pro tern. - The Chair is of the opinion that the gentleman has a right to state his excuse in his own manner. Mr. BALLARD- My excuse was, I have legal doubts in my own mind, as to tle right of this body to arrest absent members, and hold them as prisoners. The question was put on excusing Mr. Ballard from voting, and it was declared lost. Mr. BALLARD - I vote " no." Mr. COCHRAN - I am in doubt as to my right to vote upon this question, having been in contempt some moments, and I ask, therefore, to be excused. The PRESIDENT pro ten. - The Chair is of the opinion that the gentleman has no right to vote, not yet being purged of his contempt, being in contempt for being absent on the call of the roll. Mr. BAKER-Is it in order to move that the gentleman be excused as a privileged question? The PRESIDENT pro tem.-Not at present, when the call of the roll is proceeding. Mr. PARKER-I wish to ask the President if he is not in error in saying that the gentleman is in contempt? The PRESIDENT pro tem.-The Chair is of the opinion that it is not necessary for a formal vote to declare him in contempt. The mere absence at the call of the roll when a call of the Convention has been ordered places him in contempt. Mr. A. J. PARKER-Therefore I do not see the use of this resolution that we are voting upon, the first part of it. Mr. T. W. Dwight's name was called. Mr. T. W. DWIGHT-I ask to be excused, and wish to give my reasons. I find, sir, there is no case on record in this country where any Convention has ever exercised the power of sending for its absent members., and Mr. Jameson, in his work on the subject of Constitutional Conventions, states very distinctly that the Convention las no such power. If we proceed without authority on this subject, every lawyer knows we are liable personally to an action for false imprisonment. It is, therefore, my desire to have a committee raised to examine into this question before we vote upon it. The PRESIDENT pro tem. —The gentleman is transcending, somewhat, the limits of giving an excuse, 731 The question was then put on excusing Mr. T. W. Dwight from voting, and it was declared,lost. Mr. T. W. DWIGHT - I am compelled to vote no." Mr. IHae's name was called. Mr. HALE -I ask to be excused from voting. My reasons are these: I do not think it is due to myself, or to other members of this Convention, to be obliged to vote on a question of this importance, when we have been favored with one speech, and one speech only, in favor of the mat-.ter, and there has been no opportunity for any one to speak against; in other words, when the previous question has been ordered upon a question involving the liberty of members of this Convention, without any opportunity for debate, except by the gentleman who advocates it. The question was then put on excusing Mr.,Iale from voting, and it wts declared lost. Mr. HALE-I vote "no."' Mr. Prosser's name was called. Mr. PROSSER-I ask to be excused from voting. I am in favor of one part of this proposition and am opposed to the other. I am willing that the resolution declaring members of the Convention who are absent without leave in contempt shall pass, but not the portion which authorizes the arrest. The question was put on excusing Mr. Prosser from voting, and it was declared lost. Mr. PROSSER - I vote "no." Mr. Seymour's name was called. Mr. SEYMOUR-I ask to be excused from voting. My reasons are these: while I believe it is in the power of this body to issue the process indicated, I do not feel as a man of honor that I have a right to vote for it until I have had an opportunity to present an excuse for a member of this Convention, who requested that I should present such an excuse for him when he left, and which excuse I deem to be good and valid, and which I have tried for a long while to present. The question was put on excusing Mr. Seymour from voting, and it was declared lost. Mr. SEYMOUR - I vote " no." Mr. Silvester's nime was called. Mr. SILVESTER - I ask to be excused from voting. Without stating what my opinion was with respect to the main question, before it had been put, I desired to present excuses for two members, and I had no opportunity to do so. The question was put on excusing Mr. Silvester from voting, and it was declared lost. Mr. SILVESTER - I vote " no." The SECRETARY completed the call of the roll, and the motion of Mr. Alvord was declared carried by the following vote: Ayes- Messrs A. F. Allen, N. M. Allen, Alvord, Andrews, Barker, Bell, Bickford, Case, Clinton, Cooke, Duganne, C. C. Dwight, Ely, Field, Flagler, Folger, Fuller, Gould, Graves, Greeley, Hadley, Hammond. Hitchcock, Kinney, Lapham, A. Lawrence, M. H. Lawrence, Ludington, Merrill, Merritt, Merwin, Opdyke, Rathbun, Root, Rumsey, L. W. Russell, Seaver, Smith, Spencer, Van Campen, Van Cott, Wales - 42. Noes —Messrs. Baker, Ballard, Bowen, E. A. Brown, W. C. Brown, Champlain, Chesebro, Clark, Conger, Corning, Daly, T. W. Dwight, Hale, Harris, Ketcham, Krum, Mattice, A. J. Parker. C. E. Parker, Pond, Presser, Schell, Schumaker, Seymour, Silvester, Strong, Tappen, S. Townsend, Wakeman -29. Mr. CONGER-I move a reconsideration of the vote which has just been taken, and when the reconsideration is ordered, as I think it will be unquestionably by the Convention, I shall move for a division of the question. Mr. ALVORD - I rise to a point of order. In moving for a reconsideration, the gentleman must not discuss it, but it must lie over under the rule. Mr. CONGE R - I moved a reconsideration as a privilege of this House. I now move it over again as a question of privilege of this Convention. Mfr. ALVORD- I rise to a point of order that that is not a question of privilege. Mr. CONGER -It is a question of the privilege of the Convention; I ask it as a question of the privilege of this Convention under the law which constitutes this body, and which expressly forbids any such action as that which has been claimed by the majority. The law expressly forbids it, and it is a question of the privilege of the Convention, if I know what such a question is. The PRESIDENT pro tern.-It is in the power of the house, and the gentleman will proceed. Mr. CONGE1R-In the law organizing this body the law says: "The Convention shall have the power to punish as a contempt, and by imprisonmentMr. ALVORD- I rise to a point of order. The PRESIDENT pro tem.- The gentleman from Rockland [Mr. Conger] will continue to state his point of order, the Chair does not quite understand the point as yet. Mr. CONGER -That law says "the Convention shall have the power to punish, as a contempt and by imprisonment or otherwise, a breach of its privileges, or of the privileges of its members; but such power shall not be exercised, except against persons guilty of one or more of the following offenses: 1. The offense of arresting a member or officer of the Convention, in violation of his privilege from arrest, as hereinbefore declared. 2. That of disorderly conduct in the immediate view and presence of the Convention, and directly tending to interrupt its proceedings. 3. That of publishing any false and malicious report of the proceedings of the Convention, or of the conduct of a member in his delegated capacity. 4. That of refusing to attend or be examined as a witness, either before the Convention or a committee, or before any person authorized by the Convention or by a committee, to take testimony in the proceedings of the Convention. 5. That of giving or offering a bribe to a member, or attempting by menace, or any other corrupt means or device, directly or indirectly, to control or influence a member in giving his vote, or to prevent him from giving the same. Mr. BARKER- Will you read the next seatence? Mr. CONGER - Certainly: 732 "In all cases in which the Convention shall peal taken on a non-debatable question is not depunish any of its members or officers, or any batable. other person, by imprisonment, such imprison- The PRESIDENT pro ternm.-The Chair is of that meat shall not extend beyond the session of the opinion. Convention." Mr. MERRITT-I rise to a point of order-that Very good. What does that amount to? That the question of reconsideration is debatable, and proves nothing. the appeal is therefore debatable. Mr. ALVORD - Without desiring to be offi- The PRESIDENT pro ternm.-The motion for a cious, I rise again to state my point of order. It reconsideration lies, by the rule, on the table immeseems to me the gentleman has exhausted his diately upon its being made, therefore it is not question of privilege- debatable. The gentleman from Rockland [Mr. Mr. CONGER -It is not a question of per- Conger] made a motion to reconsider, and the sonal privilege; it is a question of the privilege Chair decided it must be laid on the table. He and power of this Convention. then rose and claimed, as he undoubtedly candidly The PRESIDENT pro tern.- The Chair is of thought, that it was a privileged question, and the opinion that it is not a question of privilege. therefore could be entertained. The Chair deMr. CONGER- I do not ask it as a question cided against him, that it must lie on the table. of personal privilege, but as a question of the He appealed from that decision, therefore the privilege of the Convention. appeal is not debatable-otherwise, the whole The PRESIDENT pro tem.- The Chair is of object of the rule, that the motion to reconsider the opinion that the motion to reconsider must must lay on the table, would be avoided, and the lie on the table. Convention would be swept off into a vortex of Mr. CONGER - Is that the absolute decision debate upon questions aside from the main issue. of the Chair? The Chair is of the opinion that the question must The PRESIDENT pro tern.- It is. be put on the appeal immediately. Mr. CONGER - Then I take an appeal from Mr. MERRITT - May I ask a question? If the decision of the Chair, and ask that the appeal when that motion to reconsider was properly lie on the table. before the Convention it was debatable, the The PRESIDENT pro tern.- It will lie on the question of reconsideration and an appeal from it table, there being no objection. is properly before this Convention. Mr. BAKER -I have drawn a resolution that Mr. ALVORD-It seems to me the gentleman may possibly get us out of the difficulty. from St. Lawrence [Mr. Merritt] does not underMr. ALVORD - I rise to a point of order. The stand the appeal. It is from the decision of the Chair has just directed the motion of the gentle- Chair that the motion to reconsider must lie on man from Rockland to lie on the table. the table. The PRESIDENT pro tem. - The Chair stated Mr. MERRITT-That is the point I wish to there being no objection, it would be laid on the argue. table. Mr. TAPPEN-I desire to raise a point of Mr. ALVORD -I understood it might lie on order, that no debate is now in order on this subthe table. ject, because the Chair directed a vote to be The PRESIDENT pro tern. - The Chair under- taken on the appeal, and a portion of the vote stood it so if there was no objection. has been taken. Mr. ALVORD -There was an objection, cer- Mr. MERRITT-I rise to a point of order-that tainly. the Chair has no right to take the vote without Mr. CONGER - The objection was not taken discussion. in time. The PRESIDENT pro temrn-The Chair is of The PRESIDENT pro tern. -The objection was the opinion that the question on the appeal must taken in time, as it was taken before the be at once taken. announcement, though unheard by the Chair. Mr. MERRITT-Without discussion? Mr. CONGER - The objection was taken after The PRESIDENT pro temn.-Yes, sir. the absolute, decision of the Chair. Mr. MERRITT-On that I appeal from the deThe PRESIDENT pro tem.-The objection was cision of the Chair. taken on the supposition that the Chair decided Mr. ALVORD-I rise to another point of order, positively. The Chair holds the objection was that appeal cannot be filed on appeal. taken in time, and the appeal from the decision of The PRESIDENT pro tern.-The Chair is of the Chair must now be decided. the opinion that one appeal must be decided at a Mr. MERRITT-I am very sorry this question time. has arisen. Mr. POND —Is it in order to move to lay this Mr. BAKER.-I wish to inquire whether I business on the table? have not the floor? I arose, was recognized by The PRESIDENT pro tem.-That is the very the Chair, and began to read a resolution. question, whether it shall lie on the table. The PRESIDENT pro tem.-The gentleman Mr. POND-I wish to move to lay the whole from St. Lawrence [Mr. Merritt] has the floor. order of business on the table. Mr. MERRITT-I am very sorry the step has The PRESIDENT pro term.-It is not in order been taken, and I do believe in adhering- at present. The question is on ma, appeal taken Mr. ALVORD-I am under the necessity of by the gentleman from Rocklhnd [Mr. Conger], rising to a point of order. from the decision of the Chair. Mr. MERRITT-I am discussing the appeal. The question was put on sustaining the decislon Mr. ALVORD-I understand it, sir, but an ap- of the 'Chair, and it was declared carried. I ': r:0 733 Mr. CONGER- I move to reconsider the vote good and valid excuses. When gentlemen have just taken, and that that motion lie on the table. left the city under circumstances which we knowr The CHAIR -That cannot lie on the table for will be justified by the majority of this Conventhe same reason that it is an appeal which must tion, unless their excuses be stated, I deem itto be be decided. unjust that we should proceed against them in this The question was put on the motion of Mr. summary way. I can conceive of no reason why Conger. and it was declared lost. we should. I do not think we shall gain anyMr. OPDYKE —I move that Mr. Cochran be thing to the business of the Convention in the now brought to the bar of the Convention and be future, if we proceed thus without hearing the permitted to state his excuse. excuses which we have commenced so hear. We AMr. BAKER- - As an amendmment I propose should not, after hearing a number of excuses the following resolution which will embrace all from gentlemen that satisfy this Convention, take the members who are present: this step and exclude others who have good elResolved, That the Clerk proceed without delay cuses to be presented by their friends who are and complete the call of the Convention, that all here, and who are notified of it. I will go as far the members absent without leave be and are as any gentleman here in the right and proper hereby declared in contempt; that the sergeant- path to maintain the dignity of this Convention, at-arms open the doors of this Convention and to insure the attendance of the members, admit all members in the city awaiting to be and to dispatch the business of the Convention. admitted herein, when each of such absent mem- I regret as deeply as any member here that we bers may present his excuse at the bar of this have been left without a quorum this morning, Convention which shall immediately act upon but I do protest against this proceeding that such excuse. shall shut out the justice of the claims of our The PI'RESIDENT pro ten. - If it is moved peers here upon this floor to be excused, and that for a susprnsion of the call, it is in order. they, whether they are rightfully or wrongfully abMr. BA KIER - I understand it is confirmatory sent, shall be declared by us who happen to be here of. and modifies the motion of the gentleman this morning, to be in contempt, while they from Ononlaga [M: Alvord], and is inpart a sus- may have good excuses which we ought pension. to accept. I know it is not the intention of The PRElSIDENT pro tern. - The Convention this Convention to declare any honorable memhas just directed that the absent members be ber of this Convention in contempt who has a placed in contempt, placed in arrest and the war- good excuse for being absent. If so, I ask why rant be issued to that effect, and that must be re- do we do it by proceeding in this call, and issuing considered before this motion is in order. the process for arresting men who have had no Mr. POND-Is it in order to move a suspension opportunity through their friends, or by them. of the call now? selves in person, to present their excuses. I The PRESIDENT pro tem.-The Chair is of the shall vote for the motion of the gentleman from opinion it is. Saratoga [Mr. Pond], and hope we shall stop Mr. POND-I make that motion then. I think these proceedings at least until members who are this order of business has now proceeded so far charged with the duties of giving excuses for as to convince those who originally voted against other members who are necessarily absent shall it that they were right originally and I hope they have the privilege of presenting these excuses will come around now and vote to suspend the to the consideration for the Convention. I think further call of this Convention. we owe it to ourselves to do so. Mr. HITCHCOCK - Is not the pending question Mr. MERRITT —I rise to a point of order,:on a motion of the gentleman from New York [Mr. The point of order is that the Chair has no right Opdyke]? to entertain a motion which is equivalent to a The PRRSIDENT pro tern. —The question was question which has been decided to be not in upon the motion of the gentleman from Montgom- order, and from the fact that the motion to recon. ery [Mr. Baker] who offered his resolution as an sider has been decided not in order, therefore no amendment to the motion of the gentleman from motion can be entertained which is equivalent to New York [Mr. Opdyke], as a part of the call; that motion. and the gentleman from Saratoga [Mr. Pond] The PRESIDENT pro tem. - The Chair, does moved to suspend the call, and that motion is in not understand the gentleman's point of order. order. Mr. MERRITT-A certain proposition was Mr. BICKFORD —I would inquire whether if adopted by this Convention and there was a the motion of the gentleman from Saratoga [Mr. motion to reconsider that proposition, and it was Pond] prevails it will supersede the order just decided to go over under the rule. The proposie made by the Convention, that the President issue tion now submitted is admitted to be equivalent his warrant for the arrest of the Absent members? to a motion for a reconsideration. The PRESIDENT pro tern. - The Chair is of Tle PREISIDENT pro tem. - Tlhe Chair is the opinion that it will. not of the opinion that it is an equivaleat Mr. SEYMOUR-I hope the motion of the motion. gentleman from Saratoga [Mr. Polnd] will prevail. Mr. MERRITT-With that decision of the I am as anxious as any member of tllis Conven. Chair I do not concur. A motion to reconsider tion to sustain its dignity and proceed with itspertains to the business of the day, and; there, business, but I do protest against our proceed- fore, it is one which is proper to be entertained ing and shutting out from the consideration of the and decided here, and does not go over under tlh Convention the cases of those gentlemen who have rule as all motions to reconsider. I734 The PRESIDENT pro ten. — The Chair is of the opinion that the point of order is not well taken. Mr. RATHBUN-I have taken very little interest in the proceedings so far, in reference to the matter now pending; and I feel very little interest in the present condition of things, any further than that the Convention should maintain its consistency in the future action which is to be had upon this question. We have, as I understand it, declared that certain members of the Convention, who are absent, are in contempt. I object, therefore, to any excuse in behalf of those gentlemen except from themselves. We have gone one step too far to allow any one to give excuses for members except the members themselves who are declared to be in contempt. Now, whether the action of the Convention is to proceed further than to bring enough of the absent members in to make up a quorum, depends upon the feeling of' the Convention. I desire, and I believe no member of the Convention present desires to go any further in this matter than I, to obtain a quorum of members so as to be able to do business. The order which has been made will necessarily bring to us, within the course of half an hour, and I presume if the doors were now open there would come in, a requisite number. But inasmuch as the order has been made by the Convention that the sergeant-at-arms proceed to arrest and bring in these members, I hope that the Convention will adhere to that, because I apprehend the gentlemen absent will not feel they are very much injured providing they have excuses. I have no doubt that most of thlemr have excuses which will be satisfactory to the Convention. The matter of arrest, we all understand very well, is not a very. serious thing. I believe tle sergeant-atarms hardly ever takes a member by the shoulder, or says anything to him more than that he is wanted inside of the chamber. I doubt very much whether any of the members of this Convention, if arrested, will bring;n action for false imprisonment for being invited in, through the sergeantat-arms. Now, although it is not a very serious matter, or injurious to the reputation or person of a member, yet I do. insist that this Convention either has, or has not, the power to control a majority of its members so as to be able to do the business for which we aroesent here. I do insist that, inasmuch as we have gone so far in the direction" of the exercise of power which I have no doubt is possessed by the Convention, we shall go one step further, and that the members of the Convention who are to be found in the city, will be brought in here, and that we make up from them a number sufficient, so that the Convention will be organized and be competent to do business, and that we hear excuses from them and not from anybody else. I hope, therefore, that the motion upon thissubject will not prevail..1 Mr. SILVESTER-I hope that the motion of he gentleman from Saratoga [Mr. Pond] will prevail. It seems to me tlia; during the whole of this morning we might have been much more profitably occupied in discussing the main business bf the Convention than we have been. I do not know how the question was raised, but certainly the business might have proceeded without a quorum as we have done before. It seems to me we should now, be better occupied in discussing tlie main subject before us, and that even having proceeded as far as we have ii this matter it would be much nmore profitable to dispense with any further proceeding under tile call than to attempt to get members here to hear their excuses; for when they come in and a quorum is present, we shall have proceeded, during their absence, with the main business of the Convention. I move the previous question. The question was then put on thle motion of Mr. Silvester, and it was declared carried. The PRESIDENT pro tern. announced the question to be on the motion of Mr. Pond. Mr. ALV ORD-On that I call the ayes and noes. A sufficient number seconding the call, the ayes and noes were ordered. The SECRETARY proceeded to call the roll on the motion of Mr. Pond, and it was declared lost, by the following vote: Ayes - Messrs. Baker, Ballard. Bowen, E. A. Brown, Champlain, Cliesebro, Clark, Conger, Corning, T. W. D wight, Hale, Harris, Ketcham, Krum, Mattice, Merwin, A. J. Parker, C. E. Parker, Pond, Schell. Schumaker, Seymour, Silvester, Strong, Tappen, S. Townsend-26. NToes -Messrs. A. F. Allen, N. M. Allen, Alvord, Andrews, Barker, Bell, Bickford, W. C. Brown, Case, Clinton, Cooke, Daly, Duganne. C. C. Dwight, Ely, Field, Flagler, Folger, Fuller, Gould, Graves, Greeley, Hadley, Hammond, Hitchcock, Kinney, Laphlam, A. Lawrence, M. H. Lawrence, Ludington, Merrill, Merritt, Opdlyke, Prosser, Ratlhbun, Root, Rumsey, L. W. Russell, Seaver, Smith, Spencer, Van Campen, Van Cott, Wakeman, Wales-45. Mr. LAPIIAMI-I move that the Convention do now adjourn. Mr. BARKER-I desire to inquire of the Chair what effect the motion of the gentleman [Mr. Laphlam] will have, if it is carried, upon the pending busin ess - whether it suspends the call? The PRESIDENT pro tem. —The Chair is of the opinion that it will terminate the proceedings under the call. Mr. LAPIHAM-Do we not resume it on the coming together of the Convention? The PRESIDENT pro tern.- The Chair is of the opinion that the subject of the call cannot then be resumed. Mr. LAPHAM - Then I withdraw tlhe motion. Mr. SILVESTER - I move that all proceedings be suspended under the call until half-past seven o'clock. The PRESIDENT pro tern.-The Convention has just taken action upon that motion. Mr. SILVESTER —I move then that we now adjourn. Mr. ALVORD - Upon that I call the ayes and noes. Mr. HALE-I would inquire wlether the motion to adjourn would be equivalent to a recess until half-past seven o'clock or until to-morrow morninrg. The PRESIDENT pro tern.- In the opinion of the Chair it would be equivalent to taking a recess until half-past seven o'clock. A sufficient number seconding the call the ayes and noes were ordered. Mr. ALVORD-I would ask the Chair if taking a recess until half-past seven o'clock does not do away with proceedings under the call. The PRESIDENT pro tern. —The Chair is of the opinion that the breaking off of the proceedings in the Convention now, suspends proceedings under the call. Mr. SILVESTER-That is one of the objects I lad in moving al adjournment, because when we met again, we would then be in a condition by reason of the presence of a quorum, to resume the business of the Convention without discussing this business of the excuses of members. The SECRETARY proceeded to call the roll on the motion of Mr. Silvester, and it was declared lost by the following vote: Ayes — Messrs. Baker, Ballard, Bowen, E. A. Brown, W. C. Brown, Champlain, Chesebro, Clark, Conger, Corning, T. W. Dwight, Hale, Harris, Ketcham, Krum, Mattice, Merwin, A. J. Parker, C. E. Parker, Pond, Potter, Schell, Schumaker, Seymour, Silvester, Strong, Tappen, S. Townsend, Wakeman - 29. Yoes - Messrs. A. F. Allen, N. M. Allen, Alvord, A ndrews, Barker, Bell, Bickford, Clinton, Cooke, Dl)lanne, C. C. Dwight, Ely, Field, Flagler, Folger, Fuller, Gould, Graves, Greeley, Hadley, Harmmond, Hitchcock, Kinney, Laplam, A. Lawrence, M. II. Lawrence, Ludington, Merrill, Merritt, Opdyke, Prosser, Rathbun, Root, Rumsey, L. W. Russell. Seaver, Smith, Spencer, Van Campen, Van Cott, Wales-41. Mr. CONGER - I move to commit the resolution that has been passed, by which the Convention orders the sergeant-at-arms to proceed to the arrest of members outside of the bar of the Convention, to a select committee of three, to consist of the gentleman from Oneida, Mr. T. W. Dwight, the gentleman from Cortland, Mr. Ballard, and the gentleman from Essex, Mr. Hale, for them to require and report as to the power of this Convention to proceed any further in an attempt to arrest any of its members on the ground of contempt for non-attendance. The PRESIDENT pro tern. - Tle Chair is of opinion that the motion is not in order, there being no quorum present. Mr. POND - I would inquire whether rule 34 does not authorize that? It provides that the Convention may take such measures as they may deem necessary to procure the attendance of a quorum of members, and the proposition of the gentleman from Rockland [Mr. Conger] is to inquire as to the proper mode. The PRESIDENT pro tem.-The Chair is of the opinion that it does not authorize the appointment of a committee as proposed. Mr. CONGER -I will modify my resolution, to come within that provision, and require the committee to instruct the Convention as to the measures that they may deem necessary to secure the presence of a quorum, and also to- report whether the measure just adopted instructing the sergeant-at arms to arrest members, is not beyond the power of the Convention. The PRESIDENT pro tern.-The Chair is of 35 the opinion that the motion of the gentleman [Mr. Conger] is not in order. Mr. CONGER-I do not desire to propose any course of action which will not tend to relieve this body from the very disastrous effects of the resolution which has been passed; and, if I understand the lawThe PRESIDENT pro tern.-The Secretary requests that for the convenience of making up the Journal, that the gentleman will reduce his motion to writing. Mr. CONGER-I will. Mr. ALYORD-I observe that two gentlemen who were absent and who were declared to be in contempt by action of the Convention are now on the floor. I move that they be requested to state if they have any excuses to offer by which they can be purged of their contempt. The PRESIDENT pro tern. - Will the gentleman designate? Mr. ALVORD- Mr. M. I. Townsend and Mr. Cochran. The PRESIDENT pro tem.-The Chair is informed that the gentleman from Rensselaer [Mr. M. I. Townsend] was excused from contempt by a vote of the Convention, and Mr. Cochran was admitted by a vote of the Convention to state the reasons for his absence. Mr. ALVORD —I must challenge the Journal of the Secretary if it so states. I desire to state, what every member of the Convention knows to be the fact, that a motion was made by the gentleman from Rensselaer [Mr. Seymour] to excuse Mr. M. I. Townsend, a separate and distinct motionand that motion was lost, and the Convention never recurred again to the original proposition. Mr. SEYMOUR-I call the gentleman froth Onondaga [Mr. Alvord] to order. Mr. ALVORD -I desire to have order. Mr. SEYMOUR- I would ask the Secretary to refer to the Journal. The SECRETARY proceeded to read from the Journal, as follows: "Mr. SEYMOUR moved that Mr. M. I. Townsend be excused. "Mr. C. C. DWIGHT moved, as a substitute for such motion, that all menmbers absent without leave be excused. After debate the motion was withdrawn." The PRESIDENT then put the question on excusing Mr. M. I. Townsend, and it was decided in the affirmative. Mr. COCHRAN — Mr. President, I am very glad to have an opportunity to purge myself of the alleged contempt of the Convention. I regret very much that my absence, temporary though it was, should have contributed in part to delay the proceedings of this body. I have been careful to avoid any complicity in that misfortune, and have, therefore, refrained from returning to my home on Saturday nights, as was the habit of many, fearing that I might not be able to reach here in time to participate in the deliberations of the body on the following Monday morning. Oa last Saturday I did not return to my home, but I did venture to make a visit to one of the neighboring rural districts. The train on which I was returning this morning was 736 somewhat delayed; and having my children with me, I was compelled to take them with me to the house which is my temporary home, and which is onot within the city limits, but is some distance beyond; and as soon as I had taken them home, I returned as quickly as I could with proper respect to the Convention, and found the doors locked; that a call of the house had been ordered, though it was not yet completed. I have no other excuse to offer. I say again that I regret to have contributed to the inconvenience of the Convention, and submit myself wholly to whatever disposition they may make. Mr. VAN CAMPEN - I move that the gentle-,man from Westchester [Mr. Cochran] be purged of contempt. The question was put on the motion of Mr. Van Campen, and it was declared carried. Mr. HALE-I mo e that this Convention do now adjourn. Mr. VAN CAMPEN - On that I call the ayes and noes. Mr. BICKFORD - I rise to a question of order. There is a permanent order in this Convention that the Convention will take a recess each day at two o'clock until half-past seven, and therefore a motion to adjourn now is inconsistent with that order. The PRESIDENTpro tem.- The Chair is of opinion that the point of order is not well taken. The prior order of the Convention only fixes the limit beyond which the morning session shall not continue. An adjournment before that time arrives can be had if the Convention sees fit. Mr. E. A. BROWN - Is it in order to move to take a recess until half-past seven o'clock? The PRESIDENT pro ten. - The Chair is of the opinion that it is. Mr. E. A. BROWN- Then I make that motion. Mr. ALVORD —I rise to a point of order. A motion to adjourn takes precedence over a motion for a recess. The PRESIDENT pro tem.-The Chair is of opinion that the motion to adjourn takes precedence. Mr. HALE -I will withdraw my motion to adjourn. r. E. A. BROWN -I move then that the Convention take a recess until half-past seven. Mr. ALVORD- I would inquire of the Chair whether, if that motion is carried, it will not do away with all proceedings under the call? The PRESIDENT pro tem. - The Chair has already stated that it will. The question was then put on the motion of Mr. E. A. Brown, and it was declared lost. Mr. BICKFORD - I would make an" inquiry whether, with an order existing that a recess is to be taken each day at two o'clock until half-past seven, that order can be executed on this occasion,,The PRESIDENT pro tem. —TThe opinion of Ate Chair is, that to take it would result in a sus-: pension of the proceedings under the call. Mr. DALY- I rise for the purpose of imaking a suggestion and asking, if we adjourn at the regular hour of two o'clock, it will have the effect of diseolving proceedings under the call? In my own judgment it will. But I make this sugeslion thli we can meet again at such hour as we have agreed upon, and renew the call of tlhe Convention, and the practical result we desire would be realized in that way. I will add, in addition, that the most effectual and successful mode of securing the attendance of members is to be found in the practice of the IHouse of Renresentatives and Senate, and that is to call the roll every morning. and note the absentees, and have them published from day to day. It is a far more practical and effectual mode than that of securing the atte:dance of members throughl the instrumentality of a call of the Convention. I beg leave to take the judgment of the Chair whether, if we adjourn at the regular hour under the rule, it will dissolve the call of the Convention. The PRESIDENT pro tem.-The Chair is of the opinion that it does, because the doors must be opened and remain open, and the chamber will be accessible to absentees as wvell as other members. Mr. WAKEMAN-I would inquire whether it is in order to move to suspend the call of the Convention until half-past seven? The PRESIDENT pro tenm.-That would be tantamount to a suspension of the call entirely, in the opinion of the Chair. Mr. VAN CAMPEN-I desire to ask if the sergean-att-arms has gone in pursuit of absent members? The PRESIDENT pro temn.-The Chair is informed that the sergeant-at-arms is absent from the chamber in pursuit of absentees. Mr. HALE-If in order, I wish to ask leave of the Convention to be excused for the period of half an hour. My reason is this: a relative of mine is about to leave town soon after two o'clock, and whom it is important I should see before he leaves. The question was put on the motion to grant a leave of absence to Mr. Hale for a half hour, and it was declared carried. Mr. DUGANNE-I would ask if it is in order to move that leave of absence be granted to all members now present until half-past seven o'clock. The PRESIDENT pro tem.-The Chair is of the opinion that such a motion would be tantamount to a motion for an adjournment, and would have the same effect. Mr. SILVESTER-Is it in order for me to ask that Mr. Sheldon be excused from contempt? The PRESIDENT pro tem.-The Chair is of the opinion that it is not in order at present. Mr. TAPPEN-I would ask leave of absence for myself, for the reason that, in my anxiety to get here this morning, I had no breakfast, and certainly I am entitled to something to eat before the day passes by. It seems to me, it is a question of humanity to grant me leave of absence for twenty minutes. [Laughter.] Mr. ALVORD - A great many of us had a very poor breakfast in our efforts to get here at nine o'clock, and I must object to granting the request of the gentleman from Westchester [Mr. Tappen]. Mr. SEAVER-I arise to a point of order, that in the absence of a quorum, the Convention has no power to grant leave of absence. 737 The PRESIDENT pro tern-In the opinion of the Chair the point of order is well taken. Mr. S. TOWNSEND-I would like to inquire what process is going on at this moment to insure a quorum? The PRESIDENT pro tem.-The sergeant-atarms is in pursuit of absentees at this time-so the Chair is informed. Mr. SILVESTER -I would like to ask a leave of absence until half-past seven o'clock. The PRESIDENT pro tern.- In the opinion of the Chair it is not in order to grant a leave of absence as requested. Mr. CONGER-In obedience to the direction of the Chair I have reduced the resolution I proposed to writing. I would say in reference to the names that I have inserted as members of the committee, that I have retained them in accordance with the resolution as I announced it orally, but that I will request the Clerk for the present to omit the reading of the names (Messrs. Dwight, Ballard, and Hale), as I do not wish to seem to interfere with the ordinary rule by which the President appoints members of the committee. The SECRETARY proceeded to read the resolution, as follows: Resolved, That the resolution of the Convention just passed, authorizing, among other things, the sergeant-at-arms to arrest certain members of the Convention for contempt because of non-attendance at this morning's session, be referred to a select committee of three, to report to the Convention, whether this Convention has the power under the law constituting it, so to order the sergeant-at-arms to make arrest of any members for non-attendance; and that the said committee have power to report to the Convention what measures they may, under the law, recommend as necessary to secure the presence of a quorum at this time, or any future occasion, and what censure may be lawfully inflicted on those now absent or who may hereafter absent themselves from the sessions of this body. Mr. ALVORD —I rise to a point of order. There being no quorum present, the resolution cannot be entertained. Mr. CONGER -I beg pardon of the gentleman [Mr. Alvord]. I refer the Chair to rule 34, and I will say to the gentleman from Onondaga [Mr. Alvord] that if the whole is not admissible I am willing to divide the question. Mr. ALVORD —I insist upon the point of order. The PRESIDENT pro ter.- The point of order is well taken. The Chair has already taken the position that rule 34 confines action to members who are present, and does not authorize them to refer anything outside of this Convention to a committee on which to report to the Convention, and more especially as this comes in conflict with the'action they have already taken, which cannot be disposed of except by a reconsideration. Mr. CONGER - I hope that the Chair has not decided that point of order yet without a hearing. Mr. ALVORD-I must insist upon the point of order. The PRESIDENT pro tem.-The Chair having said it had decided it, it must be understood that it has decided it. 93 Mr. CONGER- I regret the Chair has so decided the question, for it forces upon me the necessity, for the first time in this Convention, of taking an appeal from the decision of the Chair, in order to plainly state the poirt I wished to maintain, before I took my seat when the gentleman from Onondaga [Mr. Alvord] arose. I wish to state the grounds upon which I think the latter part of the proposition must commend itself to every gentleman present. The PRESIDENT pro tem. - Does the gentleman from Rockland [Mr. Conger] appeal from the decision of the Chair? Mr. CONGER - I do, if the decision is stated in advance. The PRESIDENT then announced the question to be on sustaining the decision of the Chair. Mr. CONGER- Under rule 34 this Convention has, in the absence of a quorum, the power to take such measures as they may deem necessary to secure the presence of a quorum, and may inflict such censure as they may deem just. If they have the power to do that in the absence of a quorum they have unquestionably the power, by the axiom that the whole always contains a part, to refer that question to a committee; and the latter part of my proposition is simply to have this question so referred in order to advise this Convention, before it takes any such action as proposed. I, and many gentlemen about this circle learned in the law, firmly believe the action proposed, to be entirely in violation of the privileges of every member of this body, and would be so gross an attempt at a violation of personal liberty as to make the officer of this House responsible at common law for breach of the law in the arrest of any member. If the law gave us any inkling even of power to arrest, if it put us in the same condition in which a legislative body is placed, I would not pretend to raise the question, but would admit that it was clear that the Convention had power. But we see that the Convention has no power except what the law has given it. The PRESIDENT pro tem. - The Chair is decided in its opinion. The gentleman will confine himself to the discussion of the appeal. Mr. CONGER -I will then state the point in question in such a way, and without argument, that there may be clearly seen by the Convention the ground upon which I take the appeal. I hope it will not be supposed that I am taking a factious appeal or an appeal to gain time. I take it simply because I regard it as an important question, and I desire to get it before this body in such a shape that it may act advisedly upon it. If the law gave this Convention the general power to arrest its members, I could not pretend to raise the question of order or the question of appeal. But the law definitely states five certain capes under which the Convention may order the arrest of any of its members or of other persons; and the question of non-attendance is not included in any of the five cases, so that the attempt on the part of the Convention to assume legislative functions in the arrest of its members for non-attendance is a violation of the peace and order of society and of the fundamental law of the State. Mr. HALE -I would ask the gentleman from 738 iRockland [Mr. Conger], if he has considered this provision of the law: " And such Convention may adopt such rules and regulations for its own government as the majority of its members may determine." Under that provision of the law, the Convention have adopted rule 34, which makes legal the very course which we have adopted. Mr. CONGER - I hardly think it will be necessary to present or argue that question on this appeal, because, if the law, in the first instance, has clearly stated the causes for which the Convention might order an arrest of members, and has expressly declared that it shall not order the arrest of members except for those reasons, and as. I read the law, it has so done, then clearly it cannot pass any rule for the regulation of proceedings, or the government, or of its order, that it would be in derogation of the mandate of law that it should not so arrest. I hope that the gentleman will look at this question, because, if the opinion expressed by my friend on my right should be adopted on mature consideration as the judgment of this Convention, it would put the Convention into the anomalous position of ordering members to be arrested by the sergeant-at-arms in absolute violation of the enabling act by which this body is convened. Mr. ALVORD —I desire, although, of course, like all others who talk upon subjects of this kind, I would like to enlarge somewhat, to confine myself directly to the question at issue, and have nothing whatever to do with extraneous matters which the gentleman from Rockland [Mr. Conger], under the pretext of an appeal, undertakes to bring into discussion. Rule 34 provides this: "In case of the absence of a quorum at any session of the Convention, the members present may take such measures as they may deem necessary to secure the presence of a quorum, and may inflict such censure as they may deem just on those who, on being called on for that purpose, shall render no sufficient excuse for their absence." Now, sir, that is delegating the power of the Convention to a minority of the Convention. Mr. CONGER- If the gentleman [Mr. Alvord], will allow me to state, I will say that the committee I propose is to be constituted of gentlemen representing the majority and not the minority. Mr. ALVORD-I think I understand the gentleman [Mr. Conger], distinctly. Now, sir, when the power is delegated to a minority by a rule of the Convention, that minority is confined to these delegated powers; and they cannot go outside of them, not by implication, not even though all the members could swear that according to their information and belief it was the intention of the Convention to give the minority greater powers. They are bound by the exact terms of the rule as it has been laid down by the Convention, and for that reason we have' no authority and no power, and cannot by possibility get it by implication or otherwise, for the appointment of a committee. Mr. CONGER- Will the gentleman [Mr. Alvord], allow me to suggest that I do not propose to delegate the power of this Convention? I merely put the question and ask that a select committee be appointed to report to the Convention on this subject of power. Mr. ALVORD -I understand the gentleman. The more he speaks about it the muddier he makes it on his own side. The gentleman asks us, a minority of this Convention, who have specific * powers beyond which we cannot go, to go outside of the bounds by the appointment of a select committee. We have no authority to authorize a committee of that kind to report to the Convention. We have power delegated by the Convention to the minority, by which we can arrest members who are absent and have left the Convention without a quorum; but when the minority attempts to appoint a committee with authority to report to the Convention we go outside of the power granted to this body, and we cannot by any possibility appoint a committee for that reason. I take it that the presiding officer of this Convention has based his decision upon that ground, and on that ground alone. Leaving out this question, which the gentleman [Mr. Conger] has undertaken to raise by the query of the gentleman from Oneida [Mr. T. W. Dwight] and the gentleman from Cortland [Mr. Ballard], it is simply a question of what power we have got under the rule. I do not know but what I might agree with my friend from Oneida [Mr. T. W. Dwight], although I seriously doubt it; for I think I could convince him, upon an argument of the case, that there is an undoubted power on the part of the Convention through the minority, under our rules, to punish these men for contempt, and to arrest them; but that is not the question. It is a question of exercising an original power as a minority, under the rule which has delegated to us certain specific powers, and I say we cannot go beyond them. I think the decision of the presiding officer of this Convention was just and should be sustained by the Convention. Mr. CONGER —If I understand the gentleman from Onondaga [Mr. Alvord], all that can be made out of his argument is this, that because under rule 34, a mlnorcy - Mr. VAN CAMPEN -I rnseto a question of order. It is this: that under the question of an appeal it seems to me the discussion has gone as far as it ought to go. The PRESIDENT pro tem. —The gentleman from Rockland [Mr. Conger], will confine himself to discussing the question of appeal. Mr. CONGER —I propose to proceed to reply to the position taken by the gentleman from Onondaga [Mr. Alvord], who says that while, under the rule, the minority of the Convention, not being a quorum, has certain powers committed to it, yet they cannot refer the question of that power or the exercise of it to a select committee, simply because it is a minority. It takes possession of the question and the power, because it is a minority, and it has just the same right as the majority has when it has jurisdiction over a question to refer that question to a select committee. If I had asked or wished that the minority here should delegate power, the argument of the gentleman might hold good, but I ask for no such remedy, but only that the question of power and suggestions of what plan the committee should recommend be referred to this committee in order to advise usMr. ALVORD -I apprehend that the gentle 739 man [Mr. Conger] did not understand me. I will state the matter as plainly as I can. I deny that the minority have any power to appoint a committee. That is the position and nothing else. Mr. CONGER —I understand that the gentleman [Mr. Alvord] denies the power, but when he attempts to state his reason for denying the power he fails, because by the rule the minority has jurisdiction of every subject and every circumstance under which I ask that this committee shall be raised, in order to advise the Convention. Mr. E. A. BROWN —I move the previous question. The question was then put on the motion of Mr. E. A. Brown, and it was declared carried. The PRESIDENT pro tem.- The question is, shall the decision of the Chair stand as the opinion of the Convention? Mr. E. A. BROWN-I call for the ayes and noes. Not a sufficient number seconding the call, the ayes and noes were not ordered. Mr. CONGER-Do I undertand the Chair to decide that both parts of my proposition are not in order? The PRESIDENT pro tem.-The Chair is of the opinion that nothing can be done in the absence of a quorum except in pursuance of power specially conferred, and as the Chair construes rule 34, a minority must remain in session and they themselves act upon any question brought before them. They cannot create a committee to inquire and report at some subsequent time, as must necessarily be the case where a legal question is involved. The minority must remain in session to decide for themselves Mr. KETCHAM-I rise to a question of privilege. The dumping of the coal in the street between this building and Congress Hall, makes so much noise that it is impossible for gentlemen to hear the remarks either of members or the Chair. The PRESIDENT pro tem.-The Chair appreciates the difficulty in reference to dumping the coal and has given directions in regard to it, but it desires to state it has no personal power to remedy it. [Laughter.] Mr. SCHUMAKER-I rise to a question of privilege. I have not yet had any breakfast and I desire leave of absence to get breakfast. The PRESIDENT pro tem.-The Chair has no power to excuse gentlemen on account of their not having had their breakfasts. Mr. WAKEMAN-I move the Convention take a recess until half-past seven. The question was put on the motion of Mr. Wakeman, and it was declared lost. Mr. ALVORD-I understand that the Chair is going to rule that under the order of the Convention, we are in recess at a certain point of time until half-past seven o'clock. I shall request the Chair, if it is proper, that it instruct the officers of the Convention to take charge of the chamber, and permit no one else to come m or go out except those members who have been in attendance this morning at the hour of the recess. The PRESIDENT pro tem.-The Chair has not so announced its decision. It is in doubt upon that question. Mr. ALVORD-Do I understand the Chair as deciding that we have no power to take a recess? The PRESIDENT pro tem. -The Chair has not decided that point. It has not arisen. Mr. ALVORD —I understood that the Chair had decided that point, and that was my reason for making the suggestion. Mr. A. J. PARKER -Is it not a settled rule that the Convention must take a recess at two o'clock until half-past seven o'clock? Can that be interfered with by the action of the minority? The PRESIDENT pro tern. - That is the resolution on the Journal. Mr. A. J. PARKER-It seems to me that that must govern us —that we must take a recess from two o'clock until half-past seven. Mr. LAPHAM- I would submit to the Chair this consideration: The members of the Convention now present take no order whatever. We simply obey an order of the Convention adopted prior to to-day, which is that at two o'clock a recess should be taken until half-past seven. That does not, in my view, suspend this call at all. It leaves the call in full force. We are simply obeying a mandate of this Convention which is obligatory on us, although we are a minority. We do not adjourn; we do not take any action which suspends the call; we simply obey an order which has been announced previous to this time. The PRESIDENT pro ter. - The Chair will state that the hour at which, by a previous resolution of the Convention, a recess was to be declared until half-past seven has arrived. The Convention may do as it pleases. Mr. MERRITT-I would like to inquire whether the order of the President to keep the doors closed will remain in force until after the recess? The PRESIDENTpro tern.-The Chair supposes the order is in force. Gentlemen will decide for themselves if it will allow members to depart and return at half-past seven o'clock. Mr. ALVORD - Do I understand the Chair as declaring the Convention in recess? The PRESIDENT pro ten. - The Chair will not so declare. If gentlemen separate, the question will come up again on the incoming of the Convention. So the Convention separated. EVENING SESSION. The Convention re-assembled at half-past seven, the President pro ter., Mr. FOLGER, in the chair. Mr. ALVORD-Mr. President, I understand that there are a number of gentlemen, delegates to the Convention present, who are in charge of the sergeant-at-arms. In order to receive their excuses for their absence I move that they be brought before the bar of the Convention. Mr. SILVESTER-I would like to inquire of the President whether the recess from two o'clock to-half-past seven did not dissolve the call? The PRESIDENT pro tem.-The Chair is not aware of any recess so far as the Journal of the Convention discloses. Mr. SILVESTER-I think wo all feel very sensibly that we have had a recess. 740 Mr. POND -Has the Chair forgotten that it declared the hour for recess had arrived? The PRESIDENT pro tem.-The Chair has not forgotten what it declared. Mr. COOKE -Are we not guilty of a violation of the rules in not having a recess? The PRESIDENT pro tern. - That point is not before the Convention at present. Mr. POND- Then I make that point. Mr. WEED appeared before the bar] of the Convention. The PRESIDENT pro tem.-Mr. Weed, you are before the bar of the Convention for a violation of its rules, in being absent without leave. What excuse have you to offer? Mr. WEED -My excuse, Mr. President, is that I was necessarily South on the Sabbath, in New Jersey, intending to be here this morning. But I found it was impossible to get a train into New York in time, so I took the first train up this morning, arriving here too late to appear before 2 o'clock. That is all the excuse I have. Mr. HITCHCOCK -I move that the excuse of Mr. Weed be accepted. The question was put on the motion of Mr. Hitchcock, and it was declared carried. Mr. SHERMAN next appeared before the bar of the Convention. The PRESIDENT pro tern.- Mr. Sherman, you were absent without leave of this Convention. What excuse have you to offer? Mr. SHERMAN - I raise no question of order as to the regularity of these proceedings, although my own opinion is that they are entirely irregular. You ask me, Mr. President, what excuse I have for my absence. I will tell you frankly. I had some business to transact with a bank in Utica this morning which required me to be present during banking hours. Being present there at that time, rendered it impossible for me to return in time for this morning session. I have a large number of other excuses that I could give if necessary, but it seems to me that this ought to be conclusive. Mr. FLAGLER - I move that the gentleman be excused. The question was put on the motion of Mr. Flagler, and it was declared carried. Mr. WEED- In coming up to the chamber this evening, I met the gentleman from Wayne [Mr. Archer], who, it seems, was absent this morning. He informed me that he had received a telegram that required him to go north to get a sick daughter, and take her home. He had just returned in the evening train, and was about to go west with his daughter immediately. I therefore move, in pursuance of his request, that he be excused. Mr. BELL-Allow me to inquire if it will not be time enough to grant the excuse when Mr. Archer returns? Several gentlemen are waiting here to be excused. The PRESIDENT pro tem.-Does the gentleman withdraw his request? Mr. WEED-Yes, if it is thought that it will take less time to withdraw it than to grant it. Mr. SHELDON next appeared before the bar of the Convention. The PRESIDENT pro tern.-Mr. Sheldon, you were absent without leave. What excuse have you to offer? Mr. SHELDON-I had a note due this day at one of the Poughkeepsie banks, and went there to pay it. That is all the excuse I have. I thought I had rather be in contempt here than there. [Laughter.] Mr. BOWEN-I wish to say one word in relation to Mr. Sheldon. I know he has a daughter who has been sick for some time, and in the early part of the week I heard him ask the gentleman from Oneida to request leave of absence for him. For some reason he did not do so; on account of the sickness of his daughter I feel bound to speak a word in his behalf. The question was put on excusing Mr. Sheldon, and it was declared carried. Mr. MORRIS next appeared before the bar of the Convention. The PRESIDENT pro tem.-Mr. Morris, you have been absent without leave of the Convention. What excuse have you to offer? Mr. MORRIS-Mr. President, in reply to the question I have to say, that I had two or three' notes to pay, and had no money to pay them with. I thought it was necessary for me to make arrangements in order to meet my obligations, and thus required my personal attendance, and I am happy to say, I was successful in my efforts. Having accomplished my object I hastened back, and I now present myself at the bar of the Convention. Mr. CORNING-I move that the gentleman be excused. I know the importance of a man paying his notes. [Laughter.] The question was put on the motion to excuse Mr. Morris, and it was declared carried. Mr. CORBETT next appeared before the bar of the Convention. The PRESIDENT pro tem. -Mr. Corbett, you have been absent without leave. What excuse have you to offer? Mr. CORBETT-It is well known that the personal appearance of my colleague from Onondaga, [Mr. Alvord] has been severely criticised during the past two or three weeks. On Saturday he requested me to call at his house on Monday morning and bring him some clean clothes. [Laughter.] It is that which detained me. Mr. ALVORD —I would ask the gentleman whether he called at my house to get the clean clothes? Mr. CORBETT - Am I obliged to answer that question? [Laughter.] Mr. POND -I move the gentleman be excused. I think the fine, if any, should be imposed on the gentleman from Onondaga [Mr. Alvord]. Mr. ALVORD —I would ask the gentleman [Mr. Corbett] to answer categorically, the question I put to him. SEVERAL DELEGATES-"No; no." Mr. ALVORD -If he will not answer the question, I will have to explain. Mr. CHESEBRO-In addition to the fact of Mr. Corbett being excused, I move that the Cohvention impose upon his colleague [Mr. Alvord] the penalty that he put the clean clothos on. [Laughter.] 741 Mr. ALVORD-The facts are that, although I requested the gentleman [Mr. Corbett] as he has stated, he did not comply with the request, and I had to pay the expressage on the clothes. [Laughter.] The question was then put on the motion to excuse Mr. Corbett, and it was declared carried. Mr. BICKFORD-I don't wish to hear any more excuses. The PRESIDENT —Does the gentleman [Mr. Bickford] make a motion? Mr. BICKFORD-I do. SEVERAL DELEGATES-"No; no." Mr. BICKFORD - Very well - I withdraw it. Mr. EDDY appeared before the bar of the Convention. The PRESIDENT pro tem.-Mr. Eddy, you have been absent without leave; what excuse have you to offer? Mr. EDDY- My excuse is that I was sent for to return home on very important business. I took the first opportunity to return, but did not reach here in time for the morning session. Aside from the engagements that I had to meet, another cause of my absence, and one that was quite as important, was to confer immediately with my constituents in regard to the important matters under consideration in this Convention. And I give it as my opinion, Mr. President, that if more of the members of this Convention would confer immediately with their constituents, it might effect a great saving of time, and many questions -and resolutions, etc., that are brought before us would not be introduced. I embraced that opportunity to confer with my constituents, and I came back as soon as I could. Mr. GRAVES - I move that the gentleman be excused. Mr. TAPPEN - I would like to know what the gentleman's constituents advised him on this subject. [Laughter.] Mr. EDDY - I will state to the gentleman if he wishes to know. The question was then put on the motion to excuse Mr. Eddy, and it was declared carried. Mr. SCHELL - I now move that all proceedings under the call be suspended, and on that motion I move the previous question. The question was then put on the motion of Mr. Schell, and it was declared carried. Mr. SHERMAN —I move to reconsider the action of the Convention by which the previous question was ordered. I will state, if the Convention will give me leave, why I dso. I wish to offer an amendment, in case the previous question is not ordered on the motion of the gentleman from New York [Mr. Schell], by adding to the motion as follows: " ProvidedMr. CONGER- I rise to a point of order, that this resolution must lie over under the rule. The PRESIDENT pro tern.-The motion to reconsider the previous question being as to business before the Convention, it ought not to lie over. [The President pro tern., on subsequently consulting the rule, learned that he was in error.] Mr. SHERMAN-If there is no objection, then I will propose the amendment, as follows: "Provided, that members still absent without leave be held in contempt until they shall respectfully render their excuses and submit to the judgment of the Convention. " Unless we adopt some such resolution, those who are still absent escape censure. The question was put on the motion to reconsider the vote by which the previous question was ordered, and it was declared carried, on a division, by a vote of 37 to 33. The PRESIDENT pro tern.- The pending question is, shall the main question be now put? Mr. SHERMAN-I now renew my motion to amend. The amendment is in the possession of the Secretary. Mr. WEED - I trust the amendment will not prevail. I am opposed to it for this reason. It has been apparent to every gentleman who has been here to-day that this call has entirely interfered with and destroyed the business of the day. Now, if it can have any effect at all upon the members of this Convention it must be a moral effect, for certainly, no gentleman here supposes that a fine or imprisonment will be imposed upon absent members. Its moral effect will be just as great if this call should be suspended now, as it would be if we suspend it under the proposed amendment. There are seventy or eighty members absent in contempt. If you leave these members in contempt, for the next three days, one quarter of the time of this Convention will be taken up with explanations, and the giving of reasons, and the taking of questions upon excusing members who are now in contempt. It seems to me, therefore, looking at it as I do, that the moral effect is the only effect that you have accomplished with all your proceedings to day. It would be more consistent with our duties as members of the Convention to suspend the call entirely upon the motion of the gentleman from New York [Mr. Schell]. Mr. ALVORD - I beg to differ with the gentler man from Clinton [Mr. Weed]. In the first place his premises are entirely incorrect. A call of the roll was had this morning, and we were found to be without a quorum, so that it was entirely impossible to do any business afterward. Mr. WEED - Will the gentleman allow me to ask him a question? Does he not know in his legislative experience that one-half of the legislation-good legislation too-is dohe in the absence of a quorum? Except that gentlemen had seen fit to make a call, there was no reason why you could not have gone on to-day with the business. Mr. ALVORD -I have this answer to make to the gentleman from Clinton [Mr. Weed] in that regard. I am aware of the fact that considerable of the routine business in the ordinary legislation of the State is carried on without a quorum; but I have always had serious doubts whether it was not quibbling with the law if not absolutely violating it, and that it was necessary-absolutely necessary-that there should be a quorum of members of the Legislature in attendance upon the transaction of any business that might come before it. I should, for one, have been contented this morning to have remained silent and permitted the business of this Convention to g' onu without starting the idea of a quorum not being in attendance. But it was suggested and a cal of the roll was had; and, while I might; 742 not have done it myself, I justify fully the gentleman who did make the proposition for a call of the roll. That was a right that he possessed, and it is rigtithat it should be exercised; it is the usual and ordinary rule, particularly in a Convention like this, and therefore it was entirely proper that it should so have been had. When it was had, it determined the question beyond a doubt that there was no quorum present. And up to two o'clock this afternoon, sir, it was evident from time to time, in the votes that were taken in this body, and in the number of those who were said to stand outside of the door,' that there was no quorum in attendance. Therefore we have been unable, up to this time in our proceedings, to do any business whatever; and therefore, I say that so far as regards the premises of the gentleman from Clinton [Mr. Weed] are concerned, he is entirely wrong. Another thing, it is impracticable for the minority to do the business which eventually is to be or is not to be, so far as regards the majority of the Convention, acquiesced in by them. Mr. WEED-I ask the gentleman if it was impracticable for the minority to hear speeches? Mr. ALVORD - The facts are, with regard to that matter, that most of the gentlemen who were present to-day for the purpose of going on with the discussion-the gentlemen who remained here with a quasi quorum, and hardly that, during the entire of Saturday and a portion of Fridayhad made their speeches upon this subject. But from courtesy upon the part of those gentlemen who remained here, it was agreed to extend over until to-day and to-morrow the discussion upon this question, for the benefit of those who were stated to have a desire to speak, but who were not present when the subject was before the Convention. Therefore, so far as regards the members here, they had exhausted themselves on this subject. They had spoken under the twenty minutes rule, and had no right to speak a second time. Now, another thing; the gentleman says the moral effect of this call has already been had. I think not. I agree with him that there is no doubt about the fact that the great majority, if not all of the absentees, when they shall be brought up for contempt, will give such excuses as their consciences will permit them to give, and that they will probably be excused. But I seriously doubt if; in the light of the example we have had here to-day, they will ever, hereafter, during the continuance of this Convention, be caught under like circumstances. We want these gentlemen to come up before the bar of the Convention and have it recorded on the Journal that they have been compelled to come here and purge themselves of contempt, and they will take good care that the excuses which they shall undertake to give hereafter for absence will be valid and substantial exouses, and such as they can stand upon anywhere and everywhere. Now, I hold it to be the duty of every man, as I have said over and over again, if he desires to absent himself from his duties in this Convention, that he should rise in his place and state to the Convention that he desired to be absent so many days from the body of the Convention, and ask them to give him the right to do so in advance of his absence. Now, I hope and trust that the resolution of the gentleman from New York [Mr. Schell] as amended by the gentleman from Oneida [Mr. Sherman] will pass, so that those men who are now absent will come up here and give their excuses, and that they will find in this a warning upon the part of this Convention which will insure, so far as regards the future of the Convention, their attendance upon their duties. It is in this way, and in this way only, in the absence of any pecuniary or personal punishment upon them, that we can hope that this matter, which we have initiated and carried so far here to-day, will be successful in its operations in the future. Mr. FLAGLER-I move the previous question. The question was then put on the motion of Mr. Flagler, and it was declared carried. The question was then announced on the amendment of Mr. Sherman. Mr. SCHELL-I call the ayes and noes. A sufficient number seconding the call, the ayes and noes were ordered. The SECRETARY proceeded to call the roll. The name of Mr. Pond was called. Mr. POND-I wish to be excused from voting. I am not versed in parliamentary law; but the gentleman who offered this amendment [Mr. Sherman], who has himself been excused for absence this morning, stated, before he made his excuse, that, in his judgment, this whole proceeding was irregular. I have a good deal of confidence in that gentleman's opinion, and it accords with my own. But fearing that if other gentlemen are excused they will do precisely as gentlemen who have been excused-go in for fighting those who are absent and holding them in contempt, I do not wish to vote on this question. The question was then put on excusing. Mr. Pond from voting, and it was declared lost. Mr. POND -I vote "no." The SECRETARY proceeded with the call. Mr. WEED —I notice the names of several gentlemen called whom I know to be in the city who are not out on leave of absence, and who did not answer to their names. I wish to inquire how it happens on the call of the Convention that any gentleman who iS not in contempt under the resolution is absent from the Convention? The PRESIDENT pro tern.- Several gentlemen were excused this morning. It is possible some of the members in the mind of the gentlemen are included. Mr. WEED -Some whom I have in my mind I think took pa;i in the proceedings this morning. The PRESIDENT pro tem.-If the gentleman [Mr. Weed] will name any gentleman who is absent without excuse, the Chair will direct that he be sent for by the sergeant-at-arms. The amendment of Mr. Sherman was declared carried by the following vote: Ayes-Messrs. A. F. Allen, N. M. Allen, A1 -vord, Andrews, Baker, Barker, Bell, Bickford, E. A. Brown, W. C. Brown, Case, Clinton, Cooke, Duganne, C. C. Dwight, T. W. Dwight, Eddy, Ely, Field, Flagler, Folger, Fuller, Gould, Graves, Greeley, Hadley. Hammond, Hatch, Hitchcock, Kinney, Lapham, A. Lawrence, M. H. Lawrence, Ludington, Merrill, Merritt, Merwin, Opdyke, C. E. Parker, Prosser, Rathbun, Root, 743 Rumsey, L. W. Russell, Seaver, Sherman, Smith, noes upon the second portion of the proposiSpencer, M. I. Townsend, S. Townsend, Van tion? Campen, Van Cott, Wakeman, Wales-54. The PRESIDENT pro tern. —The Chair is of Noes - Messrs. Ballard, Bowen, Carpenter, the opinion that the gentleman can. Champlain, Chesebro, Clark, Cochran, Conger, Mr. ALVORD -Then I am perfectly willing to Corbett, Corning, Daly, Hale, Harris, Ketcham, have the question divided. Krum, Landon, Mattice, Morris, A. J. Parker, The question was then announced on the first Pond, Potter, Schell, Schumaker, Seymour, Sil- part of the proposition. vester, Sheldon, Tappen, Weed-28. Mr. SCHELL- I call for the ayes and noes on The question then recurred on the motion of that question. Mr. Schell, as amended on the motion of Mr. Not a sufficient number seconding the call, the Sherman. ayes and noes were not ordered. Mr. MERRITT- I would like to inquire whe- The question was then put on that part of the ther the aggregate vote present would make a motion offered by Mr. Schell, and declared carried. quorum? Mr. ALVORD - I call for the ayes and noes The PRESIDENT pro tem.- The Secretary in- on the second proposition. forms the Chair that eighty-two gentlemen have A sufficient number seconding the call, the ayes answered to their names. and noes were ordered. Mr. POND- Is it in order to move to lay the Mr. WEED - I understand there are members resolution of the gentleman from New York [Mr. in the hall and theSchell] on the table? Mr. ALVORD - I rise to a point of order, that The PRESIDENT pro tern.-The Chair is of the previous question has been moved upon this, the opinion that it is not. and no other business can intervene. Mr. A. J. PARKER - Is it in order to ask that Mr. WEED- I rise to a point of order, that the question be divided? the call has been suspended by a vote of the Tile PRESIDENT pro tern. - The Chair is of Convention. There are gentlemen in the hall who the opinion that it is. are denied admittance. Mr. A. J. PARKER- I ask that division. The PRESIDENT pro tern.- The Chair is not Mr. ALVORD -With due deference to the informed that the call has been suspended by a Chair the question has been made double by the vote of the Convention. action of the Convention. Therefore, in my opin- Mr. WEED -Did not the other vote suspend ion, it is not divisible. the call? The PRESIDENT pro te. - The Chair is still The PRESIDENT pro tern. -The vote was of the opinion that the gentleman can call for a taken only on the first part of the division, and we division of the question. must proceed to complete the matter in hand. Mr. SHERMAN-I submit that the gentleman The SECRETARY then proceeded to call the from Onondaga LMr. Alvord] is right, that the roll on the part of the second division, being the question is not divisible; and I think I can amendment offered by Mr. Sherman, and it was satisfy the President that it is nct. declared adopted by the following vote: Mr. WEED-I rise to a point of order; the Ayes-Messrs. A. F. Allen, N. M. Allen, Alvord, Chair has decided the question to be divisible. Andrews, Baker, Barker, Bell, Bickford, E. A. The PRESIDENT pro tem.-The gentleman Brown, W. C. Brown, Case, Clinton, Cooke, Duhas the right to appeal. ganne, C. C. Dwight, T. W. Dwight, Eddy, Ely, Mr. SHERMAN-I call the attention of the Field, Flagler, Folger, Fuller, Gould, Graves, Chair to rule 34 of this Convention, as follows: Greeley, Hadley, Hammond, Hatch, Hitchcock, "If any question contain several distinct prop- Kinney, Lapham, A. Lawrence, M. H. Lawrence, ositions, it shall be divided by the President, at I;udington, Merrill, Merritt, Merwin, Opdyke, C. the request of any member, provided each sub- E. Parker, Prosser, Rathbun, Root, Rumsey, L. division if left to itself, shall form a substantive W. Russell, Seaver, Sherman, Smith, Spencer, M. proposition; but the motion to strike out and in- I. Townsend, S. Townsend, Van Campen, Van sert shall be indivisible." Cott, Wakeman, Wales- 54. The PRESIDENT pro ter.- The Chair is of Noes-Messrs. Ballard, Bowen, Carpenter, Chamthe opinion that the last part of the resolution plain, Chesebro, Clark, Cochran, Conger, Corbett, will form a distinct substantive proposition. Corning, Daly, Hale, Harris, Ketcham, Krum, Mr. SHERMAN-Suppose the first part is Ludington, Mattice, Morris, A. J. Parker, Pond, rejected, would the second become a substantive Potter, Schell, Schumaker, Seymour, Silvester, proposition? Sheldon, Strong, Tappen, Weed — 29. The PRESIDENT pro tem.-It would with a Mr. W. C. BROWN-I ask the unanimous con. few words added to it. sent of the Convention to give notice of a motion Mr. SHERMAN-It seems to me it would be to correct our rules by which we shall be relieved a tail without a dog to it. [Laughter.] frpm ever again being caught in the dilemma in The PRESIDENT pro tern.-The question which we were placed this morning. Those of seems to be, in the opinion of the Chair, suscept- us who had remained here, and desired to carry ible of division. In the first place, the Conven. out tne rules of the Convention and proceed with tion can vote whether there will be a suspension our business, found themselves in this unpleasant of the call. In the second place, they can vote, dilemma: we were imprisoned, and it was only by if there is a suspension of the call, what shall be brute force that we escaped frotn confinemeant done with the recusants under the call. here, while it was doubtful whether those outside, Mr. ALVORD-Can I call for the ayes and who were derelict in their duties would be pun. 74M ished at all. Therefore, if there is no objection, I to do with the question of excusing Judge dsire to give a notice. Paige? No objection was made. The PRESIDENT pro tern. - The Chair thinks Mr. W. C. BROWN-I give notice that I will, the question is not in order, as Mr. Archer has as soon as practicable, move an amendment to rule been excused. WS, by adding at the end thereof the words as fol- Mr. ALVORD —I know, that so far as Mr. lows: Archer is concerned, if he had done as his col"A recess, while a call of the Convention is leagues did, come from Saratoga last evening, he pending, will not terminate the proceedings on would have been here this morning, and on his the calf; but no person shall leave, or return to making the request he would have been excused, the Convention, pending a call, without a ticket as a matter of course. He received the telegram, from the President, which he shall exhibit on as I understand, in this locality, having just leaving and deliver to the doorkeeper on return- returned from Saratoga. g." Mr. BALLARD - Is the gentleman not aware Mr. WEED-I now renew the motion I made that Mr. Archer did not stop at Saratoga, but with reference to Mr. Archer, of Wayne. I went on to Washington county, where he met his move that Mr. Archer be excused from his con- wife and daughter? tempt for the reason given. Mr. WEED - I would like to answer the genThe question was put on the motion to excuse tleman from Onondaga [Mr. Alvord] as he asks Mr. Archer, and it was declared carried. me the questionMr. WEED-I move to reconsider the vote The PRESIDENT pro tem.- The gentleman tAken on the last part of the proposition which from Onondaga [Mr. Alvord] has the floor. Will waA adopted, and which leaves members in con- the gentleman yield? tempt. Mr. ALVORD - I will not. The PRESIDENT pro tem.-The motion will Mr. HATCH - I want to know what the queslie over under the rule. tion is. Mt. HAMMOND-I ask the Convention to ex- The PRESIDENTpro tern.- It is on the motion cuse Mr. Farnham, who was called away Satur- to grant an excuse to Mr. Paige. day evening by a telegram. He wished me to Mr. HATCH - What has that to do with Mr pteent his excuse this morning. Archer? The question was put on the motion to excuse The PRESIDENT pro ter.- The gentleman Mr. Farnham, and it was declared carried. from Onondaga [Mr. Alvord] has the floor. The Mr. HALE -There are several gentlemen in gentleman from Erie [Mr. Hatch] will please be charge of the sergeant-at-arms, I believe, who seated. Wish to render their excuses. I move that we hear Mr. ALVORD - I do not desire to get up any their excuses. fuss in this Convention. I merely desire to do my Mr. SEYMOUR-Before that is proceeded with duty, and I shall do it without any regard to any I wish to ask an excuse in behalf of Judge Paige, efforts on the part of others m attempting to drive wbo,when he left last week, requested me to make me from my position. I say, we have gone to work the request if it should be necessary. Judge Paige and declared these gentlemen in contempt, and they complained thathewas unwell. I believeitiswithin are in cortempt until they are excused from the the knowledge of many of this Convention that he contempt or purged from it. They can as well has been in a very depressed state, owing to a present their excuses themselves, when they come very severe domestic affliction. He wished to go within the body of this Convention, and get up in to Clifton Springs for a few days for his health, their places one by one and ask to be excused. If and 1 promised to give this excuse to the Conven- we permit this course now we should have pertion, which I hope will be sufficient. mitted it in the first instance. The mistake was Mr. ALVORD-I am opposed to granting excu- in beginning the wrong direction. There sea to gentlemen, except upon their own request. should not have been any excuses until the genTo do otherwise, does away with the entire force tlemen were brought here to be excused in their and effect of all we have done. When Judge Paige own proper persons, before the bar of the Convenshall return here in due course of time, his health tion. I believe what the gentleman from being restored, he can make his own excuse; and Rensselaer [Mr. Seymour] says, in regard to thAttiie will be sufficiently abundant for the pur- Judge Paige, that he went away in the belief pose. We have done away with or suspended that it was best for him to go to Clifton th -all, so that these gentlemen who are absent Springs; and I hope he is there recovering his are not now liable to arrest, wherever they health. When he cones before us again, with his may be, by the sergeant-at-arms of the Conven- excuse, of course he will be excused. But I trust tiea. When they shall come into the body of the we are not to take second hand excuses at this Convention, then they can get up and make their time, in regard to individuals, until we shall finally ofn excuses. Otherwise the result will be that purge all the members of this Convention who partes can go on and make excuses for others, are now absent. The usual and ordinary method and perhaps the parties could come in and say of proceeding is to let' gentlemen appear in their that there was no such thing. In this connec- own behalf, and I trust, therefore, this Conventionu I ask the gentleman from Clinton [Mr. Weed] tion will not excuse Judge Paige -not because wba ho saw Mr. Archer? the excuse offered is not upon its face a good Mr. WEED-I will answer the gentleman with one- but, because an excuse should not be stated a tgat deal of pleasure. in that way. r. HAT0CH-I do not know what that has Mr. SEYMOU — I regret that the gentleman..... 745 from Onondaga [Mr. Alvord], when he first rose, should have intimated to this Convention, after the declaration made of the language which Judge Paige used to me, that, perhaps, when Judge Paige came himself to give his excuse, he would give a very different one. Mr. ALVORD —I call the gentleman [Mr. Seymour], to order, I said no such thing. Mr. SEYMOUR - I am very sure the gentleman did. Mr. ALVORD- Mr. PresidentMr. SEYMOUR- I don't yield the floor to the gentleman from Onondaga [Mr. Alvord]. I was about saying that I was very glad the gentleman before he took his seat, upon second thought, had concluded to avow to this Convention that he believed the excuse I had given for Judge Paige, was the right one. That excuse has been presented to this Convention. Other gentlemen, as well as Judge Paige, have been excused without a word of objection, and I appeal to the Convention not to make a distinction in this case that would seem to cast discredit upon an honorable gentleman who has been with us under circumstances painful to himself, doing his duty. Mr. KETCHAM- I move the previous question. The question was put on the motion of Mr. Ketcham, and it was declared carried. The question recurred on the motion to excuse Mr. Paige. Mr. SEAVER —I rise to a point of order. The Convention has just taken action upon a resolution to suspend further proceedings upon this floor, with the proviso that members in contempt shall remain so until they appear here and purge themselves of that contempt. I hold it to be incompetent for this Convention to proceed any further in regard to excuses until members themselves appear, or until we rescind the resolution which has been adopted. The PRESIDENT pro ter. - The point of order is well taken. Mr. POND -It seems to me the resolution just read does not - The PRESIDENT pro tem.-Does the gentleman [Mr. Pond] appeal from the decision of the Chair? Mr. POND - I do, if it is necessary to make the remarks I desire to. Mr. POND - It seems to me the resolution just read does not require the personal appearance of the absent member at the bar of the Convention. It says that the members absent and in contemptThe PRESIDENT pro tem.-The Secretary will please read the resolution again. The SECRETARY read the resolution,as follows: "Provided, that the members still absent without leave be held in contempt until they shall respectively render their excuses and submit to the judgment of the Convention." Mlr. POND-Is it "respectfully" "or respect. ively?" Mr. SHERMAN -It is "respectively "-that is the way I read it when I introduced it: "Provided,. that members still absent without leave be held in contempt until they shall respectively render their excuses and submit to the judgment of the Convention." Mr. WEED - I rise to a point of order. The resolution as passed by this Convention, and as 94 read by the Secretary when it was passed, and the ayes and noes called upon it, read " respectfully." It was read twice. Mr. SHERMAN- As I wrote the resolution I intended to write it "respectively," and I supposed it read so. The PRESIDENT pro tem.- The Chair will be governed by the written language. Mr. POND - It strikes me as a matter of indifference whether the word "respectively" or the word "respectfully" is used, for the resolution does not call for the personal appearance of a member here; and m regard to Judge Paige it is a peculiarly wrong proceeding. This morning, when the call of the Convention was moved, the previous question was also asked upon it, and at that time, I believe, the gentleman from Rensselaer [Mr. Seymour] announced to this Convention that he was requested to make excuses for several gentlemen and he desired to do so now, inasmuch as Judge Paige. when he left, requested an excuse to be made for him. I submit -unless there is some resolution imperativelyrequiring thatJudge Paige shall come here in person to make his excuse — he should not be required to do it. It has been required of no other member. It seems to me, therefore, that the language of this resolution does not show that they shall " respectively" or " respectfully" come here in person to make that excuse; and it is entirely proper and appropriate for Judge Paige to be represented here by the gentlemen of this Convention in the same manner every other gentleman has been represented who has given and been granted his excuse. If he is not excused he remains in contempt every day he is absent. I submit that under the language of this resolution, Judge Paige should be accorded the same privilege that every other gentleman has had, inasmuch as the fact was announced to the Convention this morning that he requested that excuse to be made for him, and by reason of the previous question he was prevented from making it before this order was made. I withdraw the appeal. Mr. SEYMOUR-I do not wish to be tedious, but simply desire to make a suggestion to the Chair on this question, and it is upon theMr. RATHBUN —I rise to a point of order. The gentleman from Saratoga [Mr. Pond] has withdrawn his appeal. Mr. POND — I will renew it. The PRESIDENT pro tem. —The Chair wil state why it differs from those gentlemen whohave expressed views in opposition to its ruling, The purport of the resolution is that absentees must respectfully make their excuses and submit to the judgment of the Convention. How ean they submit to the judgment of the Conveation If they are not present in person to do that? Suppose the judgment of the Convention should be that they be placed in arrest or subjected t a & fine, they could not submit to the judgment of thi Convention without being present in person to render their excuses and listen to the deteristion of the Convention upon it, and submit toS arrest or pay the fine. Mr. SEYMOUR-Wil the Ohair permi~tma make one suggestion? 746 Mr. SHERMANI-I rise to a point of order. There is no question before the Convention. Mr. POND-I renewed the appeal for the purpose of allowing the gentleman from Rensselaer [Mr. Seymour] to make his suggestion. Mr. SHERMAN —The gentleman [Mr. Pond] had not the floor, and he could not do it. The PRESIDENT pro tem.-The gentleman [Mr. Pond] now has it. Mr. SEYMOUR-I was simply about to call the attention of the Chair to this distinction. Where a member is absent, and has left no one to make an excuse for him, no one is authorized to appear for him, and he appears here as a member giving such facts as may have come to his knowledge. The PRESIDENT pro tem.-The gentleman from Schenectady [Mr. Paige] could not have left one to make an excuse for his being in contempt, because he went away before the call was ordered. Mr. SEYMOUR —That is true, but apprehending, as has often occurred, that there might not be a quorum, and a call of the Convention might be had, he requested me to present his excuse; and upon the well known principle, qui facit per alium, facit per se, I would suggest to the Chair that this is the excuse of the absentee himself. The PRESIDENT pro tern.- The Chair, with the permission of the Convention would state that the maxim quifacit per aliun, facit per se cannot apply, because he cannot by another go into ar-rest. If the Convention so orders by resolution he must submit to the order of the Conventionthat cannot be done by another. Mr. W. C. BROWN-It appears to me this discussion has gone far enough. There is no sort of doubt but what every member of this Convention will be willing to excuse Judge Paige whenever they can get the opportunity to do it in accordance with the rules of the Convention. It is perfectly plain to me we cannot do it now. I therefore move the previous question. Mr. ALVORD - Will the gentleman withdraw his motion for a moment? Mr. W. C. BROWN-I will. Mr. ALVORD - I wish to say in regard to this matter that it seems to me that the President, pro tern. is eminently right in the decision which he has come to and which decision has been appealed from by my friend from Saratoga [Mr. Pond]. The terms of the resolution itself are specific, in so many words, that the member himself must appear here and submitThe PRESIDENTpro tem. —The Chair will inform the gentleman the word " appear " does not occur in the resolution. Mr. ALVORD- NeverthelessMr. MERRITT-I rise to a point of order, that debate is enterely out of order, the President pro tern. having decided that a motion to excuse the gentleman is not in order on account of the resolution. Mr. ALVORD-The question, as I understand it is upon the appeal of the gentleman from Saratoga [Mr. Pond], and I hope I may be permitted to proceed. Gentlemen may do as they please in regard to that, but I propose to speak my opin ions before this Convention. My friend from St. Lawrence [Mr. Merritt], is a little outside of the questionMr. TAPPEN-Will the gentleman allow me to ask him a question? I ask if the Convention did not adopt the practice, to some extent, of excusing absentees on the request of gentlemen present, and whether that practice was not carried to an extent this morning sufficient to make it the rule which the Convention has recognized during its proceedings this day, and whether, having adopted that practice, the Chair is not bound to conform to it? The PRESIDENT pro term.-The Chair will state that that was prior to the adoption of this resolution. The Chair based its decision entirely upon the resolution. The practice of excusing members by request of friends after a call of the House is announced has been usual. It has been done in Congress time and time again. But this resolution coming in, in the opinion of the Chair, changes the whole programme, and we must be confined to the resolution which certainly requires a personal appearance in terms, although not in words. Mr. ALVORD-I will answer the question the gentleman [Mr. Tappen] has put to me. I think it is common sense and good ruling upon the part of this Convention that they should have permitted, even after the call was made, any one to make an excuse here; I consented to it. It is none the less true as a parliamentary rule that in every instance where a parliamentary rule has been departed from, the moment you are again on the right track that moment you are in the right direction. So far as regards this matter I wish to say to the gentleman from Rockland [Mr. Seymour] in regard to Judge Paige, that I did not say what he has ascribed to me. I made the general remark that gentlemen would be in the habit of giving excuses for their friends which when their friends appeared here might not be the excuses which they desired to make. I did not base the remark on the case of Judge Paige at all, but I took the distinct position and made it a part of my remarks that I believed the statement in regard to Judge Paige, but that I desired an end should be put to these excuses as well upon him as anybody else so that we should not be continually jumping up and making excuses for persons who are absent. There were half a dozen gentlemen from the city of New York, who thinking it possible that a call of the Convention might be had, caught me by the coat as they were going away, and desired me to get up some excuse for them, standing upon this floor. I did not agree to do it in any case. It is for that reason I am opposed to granting excuses in behalf of Judge Paige or any one else, and 1 hope the decision of the Chair will be sustained. Mr. BARKER - I move the previous question. The question was put cn the motion of Mr. Barker, and it was declared carried. The PRESIDENT announced the question to be on sustaining the decision of the Chair. Mr. MORRIS-I understand from the sergeantat-arms there are four gentlemen present who desire to be purged'of contempt. I therefore move that their excuses be now received. 747 The PRESIDENT pro tem.-Any gentleman desiring to be purged of contempt will please rise. Mr. FOWLER appeared before the bar of the Convention. The PRESIDENT pro tem.-Mr. Fowler, you are before the bar of the Convention on a charge of violating its rule on being absent without leave. What excuse have you to offer for your absence? Mr. FOWLER-I left on Saturday after thp session of the Convention, intending to return in time for this morning's session. I was unable to do so. I could not have returned if I had felt disposed, on account of ill health, and if I had been present this morning and in a position to have made a motion when I came into the Convention, I should have made a motion to be excused from this evening's session. I believe this is about the first time, since the commencement of the Convention-since its organization-that I have been absent from any of its sessions. Mr. FULLER-I move that Mr. Fowler's excuse be accepted. The question was put on the motion of Mr. Fuller and it was declared carried. Mr. PRINDLE appeared before the bar of the Convention. The PRESIDENT pro ter. - Mr. Prindle, you have been absent without leave; what excuse have you to offer for your absence? Mr. PRINDLE - Mr. President. I would most respectfully state - The PRESIDENT pro tem. - The Chair is inforned that the gentleman from Chenango [Mr. Prindle] was excused. Mr. PRINDLE- I understood that I was, but heard that I was in contempt. Mr. C. L. ALLEN-I left here on Saturday afternoon, Mr. PresidentThe PRESIDENT, pro tem.-The Chair would respectfully submit that the gentleman [Mr. C. L. Allen] will have to appear before the bar of the Convention. If there are no objections, however, the gentleman can give his excuse in his place. No objection was interposed. Mr. C. L. ALLEN-I was about to remark that I left on Saturday afternoon, intending to return this morning by the early train of cars. I have generally answered to my name in my place, heretofore. This morning is the first time I have failed to answer. I should have reached here by ten or eleven o'clock, but for the illness of a member of my family, who requested me to remain until the afternoon train, in order that I might see how her state of health was. I arrived here in the afternoon train. Under these circumstances, I ask to be excused. Mr. FLAGLER-I move that Mr. Allen's excuse be accepted. The question was put on the motion of Mr. Flagler, and it was declared carried. Mr. JARVIS appeared before the bar of the Convention. The PRESIDENT pro tem-Mr. Jarvis, you were absent without leave. What excuse have you to offer? Mr. JARVIS - On account of illness in my family, I was compelled to remain over until this day. I am here at the earliest practicable moment, and ask to be excused. Mr. SHERMAN- I move that Mr. Jarvis' excuse be accepted. The question was put on the motion of Mr. Sherman, and it was declared carried. Mr. BEALS appeared before the bar of the Convention. The PRESIDENTpro tern- Mr. Beals, you were absent without leave. What excuse have you to offer? Mr. BEALS - I have to state that I unexpectedly left Albany on receipt of a letter from my family that two members of it were ill. I made arrangements with my colleague, Mr. Graves, that in case my name was called in question before my return, he should state my excuse. I have been informed by my colleague that he had no opportunity to state my excuse. My railroad station is Ilion. On consulting the time table with reference to that station gentlemen will find that the first available morning train passing east is at ten o'clock and twenty minutes, and it arrives here at half-past two. I took the first train this morning which would bring me to this point, and reached here at that hour. By way of courting the sympathy of this Convention, I wish to urge as an argument in my behalf, that this is the first speech I have made during the entire session, and I would have preferred to have been excused even on this interesting occasion. [Laughter.] Mr. N. M. ALLEN -I move that the excuse of Mr. Beals be accepted. The question was put on the motion to excuse Mr. Beals, and it was declared carried. Mr. WILLIAMS appeared before the bar of the Convention. The PRESIDENT pro tem.-Mr. Williams, you have been absent without leave. What excuse have you to offer for your absence? Mr. WILLIAMS -I find myself very much in the condition of the gentleman from Herkimer [Mr. Beals]. I recognize the justice of the action on the part of the Convention. I did not intend to leave the city over the past Sunday, but on Saturday morning I received a communication from my family that a brother-in-law and his family were at my house, who had not been there for nearly twelve years, and considerable solicitude was expressed that I should be at home to see them. I left this city with a determination and expectation that I could return this morning in season for the morning's session. Before reaching the terminus of the railroad, I learned that I was under a misapprehension in regard to the early train. The Cincinnati express is made up every Monday morning at Utica; my impression was I could come down on that train and be here in season. I learned my mistake, and then determined to come in the midnight train. On getting home, I found my relatives there, and that they intended to come east this morning, and knowing that my carriage must go to the depot with them, I ventured to remain and come. with them. In view of the delay, I very much regret that I took that course. I am not aware that I have any extenuating circumstances to plead except this. I think I have 748 been here to answer to my name on all former roll calls. Mr. COCHRAN —I move that Mr. Williams' excuse be accepted. The question was put on the motion of Mr. Cochran, and it was declared carried. Mr. YOUNG appeared before the bar of the Convention. The PRESIDENT pro tem. - Mr. Young, you were absent without leave. What excuse have you to offer? Mr. YOUNG - I am a magistrate of my town. A couple of weeks ago a cause was adjourned for Monday morning, supposing, at that time, that our sessions would not commence until half-past seven o'clock P. M., and that I could dispose of it and get here in time. At the earnest solicitation of the parties, this morning, I remained to bear the cause. I will further state that it would be impossible for me to arrive here by any means of conveyance at ten o'clock this morning, because the only train of cars that would have brought me here by ten o'clock leaves Poughkeepsie at 4.45 A. M., and it would be impossible for me to cross the river at that hour. Mr. BELL-I move that the excuse of Mr. Young be accepted. The question was put on the motion of Mr' Bell, and it was declared carried. Mr. SCHOONMAKER - I believe I am one of the unfortunate onesThe PRESIDENT pro tem. —The gentleman [Mr. Schoonmaker] will please take his place bfore the bar of the Convention. Mr. SCHOONMAKKER appeared before the bar of the Convention. The PRESIDENT pro tem.-Mr. Schoonmaker, you have been absent without leave. What excuse have you to offer for your absence? Mr. SOHOONMAKER - I left home this morning. I expected to have left by the five o'clock train, but last evening, when I was at tea. an old client of mine desired to have a consultation with me, and I, not usually attending to busi. ness oe Sunday, put him off until this morning at eight o'clock. I saw him then, and left by the ten o'clock train and came up to this capitol and when I came to the door of the chamber, as oon as I arrived, I could not gain admittance. That is my excuse. Mr. BELL- I move that the excuse of Mr. Sohoonmaker be accepted. The question was put on the motion of Mr. Be, and it was declared carried. Mr, KRUM — My colleague, Mr. Miller, ob. taied leave of absence through me on Saturday, morning till to-morrow on account of sickness. I reeoied a letter from him this evening, in which he states that he is under the care of a physician for rba ntfis. His physician says it is not well for him to leave his house-; i therefore, desires leav of absence for a week. The PRIJXSDENT pr ten. -Is there any ob. Mn GWEB LEY- I object..M,,COaGEL-I move that Mr. Miller be grt leave of abfsene.-. LVOD —I hope he objection will be AWdw The question was put on the motion of Mr. Conger, and it was declared carried. The Convention then resolved itself into the Committee'of the Whole on the report of the Committee on the Legislature, its Organization, etc. Mr. FULLER, of Monroe, in the chair. The CHAIRMAN announced the pending question to be upon the amendment offered by Mr. Ballard to the amendment of Mr. Brooks to the article reported by the committee. Mr. S. TOWNSEND-I would like to inquire whether it is now in order to move a substitute for the first section or not? The CHAIRMAN-The Chair understands there are two amendments pending, and it is not now in order. Mr. MERRITT-I hope that the vote will not be taken upon this amendment offered by the gentleman from Cortland [Mr. Ballard], but that he will consent to pass it over informally, and take up other sections of the report. The Convention is not full now, and I know several gentlemen who desire to speak on the question pro and con. If in order I make that motion. Mr. TAPPEN-I would like to have the questions now pending read for the information of the Convention. If the amendments are very extensive then a brief statement of them will do. The SECRETARY proceeded to read the amendments as requested. Mr. WEED —I wish to ask to have the question upon the motion of the gentleman from Cortland [Mr. Ballard] divided, so that we may tate the question first upon the number of single districts; second, upon the question of time; and, third, upon the apportionment suggested by the amendment proposed. The question is divisible, and I ask it now for fear that somebody may object to its being passed over. I ask it so that when the vote is going to be taken, it will be taken in the way I have suggested. Mr. BALLARD —I will state here that the amendment offered by me calls simply for three propositions. One is to divide the State into thirtytwo senatorial districts. The second is that each district shall be entitled to a Senator. The third is a the distribution of territory, as it now exists on the statute book, made in 1866, only a year ago. My purpose was, when we came to vote, to have the question divided and to take the question first on the dividing of the State into senatorial districts. That having been acted upon, then to take up the question as to how many Senators we would have from those thirty-two districts, and the third was in regard to the territory. Now, I think, having debated this question of dividing the State into districts several days, we had better dispose of that question before we pass into a sea of other matters. Let us dispose of that, as to the division of the State into districts. The term of office is another open question-whether it shall be one or four years, and whether the Senators shall be classified or not. But I shall not ask a vote of this Convention until Wednesday, because I think it is better for the Convention to pass upon that question relative to the division of the State into eight 749 large districts or thirty-two single districts after full discussion. * Mr. RATHBUN -I am aware, sir, from conversation with members of the Convention not present that they desire to discuss the question upon the very first section of this article, and it was understood here on Saturday that the discussion upon this branch of the case would not be closed until Tuesday evening - certainly as late as that. I hope and trust no vote will be taken on the question until the Convention is more full, and until those gentlemen have a chance to enter into a discussion of this question of a division of districts - Mr. BALLARD —Will the gentleman allow me to interrupt him for a moment. I think I was misunderstood. I meant to be understood as not intending to come to a vote to-night. Mr. RATHBUN-I move then that that section be passed over for the present, when other subjects may be discussed in their order, and this one left until the gentlemen come in to-morrow morning. Mr. MERRITT-As the next section embraces the subject of enumeration, I hope we will pass that also, and take up the fourth section. If in order, I make that motion. Mr. BARKER-Let us take up the subject of compensation this evening. Mr. CHESEBRO-I move that the committee do now rise, report progress and ask leave to sit again. Mr. MERRITT - I hope not, Mr. Chairman. Mr. E. A. BROWN-Will the gentleman [Mr. Chesebro] withdraw his motion for a moment? Mr. CHESEBRO-I will withdraw it at the request of the gentleman. Mr. E. A. BROWN - I desire to make a suggestion. I do not know as it will meet with the approval of others. The amendment of the gentleman from Richmond [Mr. E. Brooks] to strike out Westchester county from the second district seems to be a great stumbling block in the way of other amendments. It occurred to me that the gentleman from Cortland [Mr. Ballard] might with the unanimous consent of the Convention withdraw his amendment long enough for the Convention to vote upon the amendment of the gentleman from Richmond [Mr. E. Brooks]. That amendment involves no particular principle. Then the gentleman from Cortland [Mr. Ballard] could renew his amendment. Mr. BALLARD —The view of the previous Chairman of the Committee of the Whole [Mr. Archer] was that the question would be properly taken on the amendment I offered first. Mr. HATCH -Is a motion in order now to rise and report progress? The CHAIRMAN - Such a motion is in order. Mr. HATCH-I think myself that the first question to be settled by the Convention is as to the number of districts. It is the important and controlling question; and therefore that question should be submitted to a full Convention. For that reason, sir, I move that the committee do now rise, report progress, and ask leave to sit again. The question was put on the motion of Mr. Hatch, and it was declared carried. Whereupon the committee rose and the Presi dent pro tem., Mr. FOLGER, resumed the chair in Convention. Mr. FULLER from the Committee of the Whole reported that the Committee had had under consideration the report of the Committee on the Legislature, its Organization, etc., had made some progress therein but not having gone through therewith had instructed their Chairman to report that fact to the Convention and ask leave to sit again. The question was put upon granting leave and it was declared carried. Mr. TAPPEN- I desire to give notice that I shall move an amendment to our rules. The PRESIDENTpro tern.-The notice is not now in order, if there is any objection. Mr. BALLARD -I move that the Convention do now adjourn. The question was then put on the motion of Mr.Ballard and it was declared carried. So the Convention stood adjourned.. TUESDAY, August 6, 1867. The Convention met at 10 o'clock, A. M. Prayer was offered by Rev. PHILIP J. SMITH. The Journal of yesterday was read by the SECRETARY. Mr. SCHELL-I perceive sir, that the Journal does not state that the Convention took a recess from two o'clock, until half-past seven. Mr. FOLGER- I request that the Secretary may read again, that portion of the Journal. The SECRETARY proceeded to read as follows: "The hour of two o'clock having arrived, the point of order was raised, that pursuant to a resolution of the Convention, adopted on the 2d inst., a recess must now be taken. The President decided that the point of order was well taken, as to the fact of the adoption of such a resolution." Mr. FOLGER-The Journal states that the Chair decided the point of order was well taken. The recollection of the member who occupied the Chair [Mr. Folger], is that he stated just precisely, what had been the previous action of the Convention, and said it must be for the Convention to determine for themselves, whether they would remain in their seats. The recollection of the member then occupying the chair, is that he did not say the point of order was well taken, but merely repeated what had been the action of the Convention on the previous day. Mr. WEED - I would like to ask the gentleman if it was not the fact, that at two o'clock, the Convention dispersed, and that the gentleman from Ontario [Mr. Folger], being President pro tern., did not resume the chair until half-past seven. Mr. FOLGER - When that point of order was raised, the person occupying the Chair, without deciding (as is his recollection) the point of order, simply stated what had been the action of the Convention, that is, the adoption of the resolution that there should be a recess from two o'clk, until half-past seven, and expressly left it to the Convention to decide what they would do. Ther was a dispersion of the members without a reess being declared, and there was a re-assembling of the members at half-past seven. The PRESIDENT-The Journal will be *erected agreeably to that statement. 750 Mr. ALVORD-I would like to know how the Journal is to be corrected agreeably to that statement? The PRESIDENT-The Chair simply wishes the decision of the President pro temn. Mr. POND-I would like to state my recollection in regard to this matter, and if I am correct, it may make some difference with regard to the correction of the Journal. I understood the President pro tem. [Mr. Folger] yesterday, when the hour of two o'clock arrived to declare the Convention in recess, and afterward, if my recollection serves me (it was a very exciting time, and very likely my recollection does not serve me), the gentleman from Onondaga [Mr. Alvord] asked the Chair, if the Chair had made such a decision, and according to my recollection, the Chair responded it had, and thereupon I left the chamber. Mr. ALVORD-I merely wish to say, I did ask the President pro tem. whether he had made such a decision, and he distinctly said he had not. Mr. BARKER-I rise simply to state, that my recollection is in accordance with the remarks of the gentleman from Ontario [Mr. Folger], who was the President pro tern., and I think the Journal should be corrected in accordance therewith. Mr. SCHELL-I recollect the fact, that at a certain time, the attention of the President pro tem. [Mr. Folger] was called to the rule under which the Convention was to act, and that was that a recess should be taken at two o'clock until half-past seven. At the hour of two o'clock it was announced that the time had arrived, and the President pro tem. left the chair, and the members dispersed, so that the fact is the Convention took a recess at two o'clock and re-assembled at halfpast seven, when the President pro tem. again took the chair. Mr. FOLGER-There is a slight inaccuracy, not so much of fact, as of the collocation of the statement of the gentleman from New York [Mr. Schell]. The President pro ter. did not announce the hour of two o'clock, and he made no announcement declaring a recess, and he did not leave the chair first, as might be implied by the phraseology of the gentleman from New York [Mr. Schell]. The members of the Convention had risen from their seats and had got into the passage ways, and' some were going out, when the President pro tern. left the chair, and did not enter it again until halfpast seven, and without calling the Convention to order, he inquired what was the further pleasure of the Convention. The PRESIDENT-Does the gentleman [Mr. Folger] desire to move for a correction of the Journal? Mr. FOLGER -I do, in that respect, and I offer the following as an amendment. The SECRETARY proceeded to read the amendment, as follows: When the point of order was taken, the President pro tern. stated that he would declare what had been the previous action of the Convention, and did state that it had been previously resolved that the Convention should take a recess at two P. M., and should re-assemble at half-past seven P. x. that he would not declare a recess. Mr. WEED - I desire the fact to appear that there was a dissolutfn of this body at two o'clock, and that they did not come together again until half-past seven o'clock, which is a fact. Mr. WAKEMAN - Yesterday I was occupying a place near the gentleman from Albany [Mr. A. J. Parker]. When it was two o'clock I moved a recess until half-past seven, and it was declared lost. e Then there was a question raised by the gentleman from Onondaga [Mr. Alvord] as to what the Chair had decided. Mr. ALVORD - I desired the President to say whether he had decided that we were in recess, and he distinctly said that he had not so decided. Mr. WAKEMAN -That was so. My attention was called to it because it was within a minute or two of two o'clock, and the attention of the gentleman from Albany [Me. A. J. Parker] was also called to it, to know what the effect would be if a recess were taken; and my attention was directed to the President pro ter. until we dispersed, and the President pro tem. did not declare a recess according to my recollection, but intimated that members could disperse and meet again at half-past seven oclock, when business would be resumed, and under that we all dispersed. Mr. A. J. PARKER-I recollect when the gentleman from Genesee [Mr. Wakeman] moved a recess to be taken until half-past seven, and that motion was declared lost by the President pro tem., and a minute or two after when it was two o'clocK, I called the attention of the President pro ter. to the rule which required we should take a recess until half-past seven, and I supposed he did declare a recess accordingly, and something was said which I supposed was an acquiescence in that rule; whereupon the Convention dispersed and assembled again at half-past seven. I suppose it is proper that the Journal should tell the truth, that we did disperse at two o'clock and re-assembled at half-past seven. Mr. KETCHAM-I hope it may be made to appear on the Journal that there was a recess whether it was announced by the President pro tem. or not. I understood at the time that the recess was announced, but however that may be, I know that we took a recess with the doors locked, and we all got out of the house. We were pouring out of the house like a swarm of bees; out of the back door and windows, and I insist that the Journal shall show that we were not in session from two o'clock until half-past seven, and I would like to have it show how we got out. Mr. POND-I move to add at the end of that amendment that we had vacated the chamber and re-assembled again at half-past seven. Mr. WEED -I have an amendment in substance, the same as that which I have drawn out, which I ask to have inserted, that at two P. M. the Convention dispersed. The SECRETARY proceeded to read the amendment, as follows: "And that at two P. M. the Convention dispersed, the members left the chamber, and the President pro ter. left the chair and the chamber, and that the Convention re-assembled at half-past seven P. M., when" 751 Mr. ALVORD -I rise to a point of order, and it is double. In the first place these are not the kind of words which can be made a part of the Journal, and in the next place the gentleman from Clinton [Mr. Weed] who offers it was not present yesterday, and, therefore, cannot know what took place. Mr. POND - I will accept the amendment of the gentleman from Clinton [Mr. Weed]. The PRESIDENT - As to the first point of order the Chair thinks the Journal may be amended to correspond with the fact, and as to the second point the Chair is ignorant of the fact whether the gentleman was in his place or not. Mr. POND - If it is material I have accepted the amendment, and I think the gentleman from Onondaga [Mr. Alvord] will admit that I was here. Mr. ALVORD - I ask the Chair to rule that no other person than those who have been purged of contempt are authorized to vote upon this proposition. The PRESIDI1NT -The Chair so rules. Mr. NELSON - I would like to ask which are in contempt, those who went out of doors or those who went out of the windows? [Laughter.] The PRESIDENT The Chair is unable to decide. Mr. WEED - Did I understand those who were present in this Convention yesterday to deny the fact stated in that *mendment, or is it because they are afraid to put the facts upon the record? Mr. GOULD - It has been acknowledged by the President pro tern. that he left the chair, but that all the Convention abandoned their duties I do not know. There is no proof whatever that the whole Convention left their seats, and I know of no proof but what there was a faithful minority who remained here and made a continuous session, and I would not put it upon the Journal to that effect until Che fact was established by some proper legitimate proof. How do these gentlemen who came here late yesterday, and who are proper witnesses, know that a faithful minority did not elect a President pro ter. and preserve a continuous session? Mr. SCHOONMAKER- I happened to be in the room a little after four o'clock, and there were only one or two persons here. Mr. ALVORD - For the purpose of enabling this vote to be confined to those who were present, I ask for the ayes and noes upon this question. Mr. HALE - I would state that it appears upon the Journal that I obtained leave of absence for half an hour. Upon my return I got into the hall with very great difficulty and found no President pro tern., and no Convention in session. Mr. MERRITT - If I understand the duties of the Secretary, it is to record the proceedings of the Convention; and I hold there is nothing pertaining to that Journal except what the Secretary records, and there can be nothing beyond that which should go upon the Journal. Therefore whatever members did outside of that, or whether they went from this chamber, or whether they went to dinner or went away, ought not to go upon the Journal, and we have no right to put it upon the Journal. Mr. WEED-Zhe gentleman from St. Lawrence [Mr. Weed] does not take the proper position. If members will admit that there was a recess, I will admit that it is not material to put it upon the record; but they say there was a recess in fact, but they deny it is -proper that the fact should appear upon the record. The President pro tem. vacated the chair and left the room, and the members left the room, but the members here present will not allow it to go upon the record as an actual recess, as it really was in law. Mr. TAPPEN-One word in response to the gentleman from Columbia [Mr. Gould]; I was in this hall in the morning sessions and from then until seven there was no session and no person i in the chair. But two or three members of the Convention were in the hall, and no business was done from two o'clock until half-past seven, when the Convention re-assembled. These are facts which nobody proposes to gainsay or deny. Now, in respect to tfie objection of the gentleman from St. Lawrence [Mr. Merritt], that nothing should go upon the Journal except what the Secretary chooses to put there. That Journal is to contain what is ordered to go upon it, whether it be the minutes of the Secretary or not. Whatever this Convention direct to be put upon the Journal should be put upon the Journal. Mr. FOLGER-1 move the previous question. The question was then put on the motion for the previous question, and it was declared carried. The ayes and noes were called tbr, and a sufficient number seconding the call, they were ordered. The SECRETARY proceeded to call the roll. The name of Mr. C. L. Allen was called. Mr. C. L. ALLEN -I ask to be excused because I was not here, and do not know how to vote. The question was put upon excusing Mr. C. L. Allen, which was declared lost. Mr. BARKER -From the voices behind me I think that the members who are in contempt voted upon that last question. The PRESIDENT -The Chair rules that they should not vote. The name of Mr. C. L. Allen was called. Mr. VAN CAMPEN -It seems to me that it is a very great hardship to compel a man to vote upon a question of which he has no personal knowledge whatever. Mr. C. L. ALLEN -I do not know that I can say any more. I am entirely ignorant of the facts as to the question now called. I was not present in the room, and I do not see how I can vote with truth either yea or nay. The PRESIDENT - Tho gentleman has'already addressed those considerations to the Convention. The name of Mr. Beals was called. Mr. BEALS-I certainly beg to be excused from voting on this occasion. At the last session I did not appear before the bar of the Convention to render my excuse until the rule had been established by which, all under censure should be received in the Convention, and I feel conscientiously, sir, that this matter which has been entered into by the minority of this Convention was fuhdamentally wrong. I do not profess to understand parliamentary usage in this matter, but at least I believe myself to be correct in this, that those who ArA CknII.Q11V VAMqurahlA with nthem on&ht -not to Mr. WEED-The gentleman from St. Lawrence [Mr. Weed] does not take the proper position. If members will admit that there was a recess, I will admit that it is not material to put it upon the record; but they say there was a recess in fact, but they deny it is proper that the fact should appear upon the record. The President pro ter. vacated the chair and left the room, and the members left the room, but the members here present will not allow it to go upon the record as an actual recess, as it really was in law. Mr. TAPPEN-One word in response to the gentleman from Columbia [Mr. Gould]; I was in this hall in the morning session, and from then until seven there was no session and no person Iin the chair. But two or three members of the Convention were in the hall, and no business was done from two o'clock until half-past seven, when the Convention re-assembled. These are facts which nobody proposes to gainsay or deny. Now, in respect to the objection of the gentleman from St. Lawrence [Mr. Merritt], that nothing should go upon the Journal except what the Secretary chooses to put there. That Journal is to contain what is ordered to go upon it, whether it be the minutes of the Secretary or not. Whatever this Convention direct to be put upon the Journal should be put upon the Journal. Mr. FOLGER-1 move the previous question. The question was then put on the motion for the previous question, and it was declared carried. The ayes and noes were called for, and a sufficient number seconding the call, they were ordered. The SECRETARY proceeded to call the roll. The name of Mr. C. L. Allen was called. Mr. C. L. ALLEN-I ask to be excused because I was not here, and do not know how to vote. The question was put upon excusing Mr. C. L. Allen, which was declared lost. Mr. BARKER -From the voices behind me I think that the members who are in contempt voted upon that last question. The PRESIDENT -The Chair rules that they should not vote. The name of Mr. C. L. Allen was called. Mr. VAN CAMPEN -It seems to me that it is a very great hardship to compel a man to vote upon a question of which he has no personal knowledge whatever. Mr. C. L. ALLEN-I do not know that I can say any more. I am entirely ignorant of the facts as to the question now called. I was not present in the room, and I do not see how I can vote with truth either yea or nay. The PRESIDENT - The gentleman has'already addressed those considerations to the Convention. The name of Mr. Beals was called. Mr. BEALS-I certainly beg to be excused from voting on this occasion. At the last session I did not appear before the bar of the Convention to render my excuse until the rule had been established by which, all under censure should be received in the Convention, and I feel conscientiously, sir, that this matter which has been entered into by the minority of this Convention was fundamentally wrong. I do not profess to understand parliamentary usage in this matter, but at least I believe myself to be correct in this, that those who are equally censurable with others, ought not to 752 take part with this minority in making arrange- The gentlemen who were absent yesterday have mnent for censure, or relieve from censure, and, been here to-day, have heard the President pro I therefore hope to be excused from voting or tak- tem., and other gentlemen, state the facts as they ing any action with regard to the settlement of existed yesterday, and I submit they are clearly this question. as qualified to vote upon this subject as upon any The question was put on excusing Mr. Beals, other question that comes before the members of and it was declared carried, this Convention, it being not denied, and admitted, The name of Mr. Bowen was called. that the recess was had; and the amendment Mr. BOWEN - I beg leave to be excused from only asks to have the Journal correct in that resvoting. As I understand it, the Journal records pect. the facts as they actually existed. Now. I under- Mr. RATHBUN —I hope the gentleman will stand there is a dispute as to what these facts be excused if he is entitled to be excused. are, and I cannot decide what they are. I en- Mr. CHESEBRO —I rise to a point of order. deavored to listen to see what the proceedings This discussion is not in order. were; but I was utterly unable to hear, and after The PRESIDENT - The Chair holds, that a the Convention became disorderly I left and went reasonable amount of discussion may be indulged out. You may say I went by the back door. in. how many others left I do not know. Whether Mr. WEED - May I ask if a motion is in order? the President pro ter. vacated the chair I am The PRESIDENT - The previous question was unable ti state, and therefore I cannot say what ordered, but the Chair holds that it does not the facts were and I cannot conscientiously vote deprive the gentleman of his privileged motion. upon this question. Mr. WEED - If I understand the rule, a perThe question was put upon excusing Mr. Bowen, son may ask to be excused and state his reasons, and it was declared lost. not to exceed five minutes, and that no other perThe name of Mr. E.'P. Brooks was called. son can speak upon that subject. Mr. E. P. BROOKS -If I am obliged to vote I The PRESIDENT —The Chair holds that the shall infer that the resolution of the gentleman gentleman is correct. is correct, because I believe we have a standing The question was put on excusing Mr. Eddy, rule which requires the Convention to take a and it was declared lost. recess at two o'clock, and I should infer from the The name of Mr, Endress was called. parliamentary knowledge of the President pro tem. Mr. ENDRESS-I am informed by some gentlethat this Convention acted constitutionally yester- man that I was excused during my absence and I day and did not break up disorderly. I should therefore vote " aye." presume that they acted in accordance with the The name of Mr. Evarts was called. rule, and if I am compelled to vote I shall vote in Mr. EVARTS - I was not present. the belief that they observed the rule, and I vote The PRESIDENT- The gentleman's name " aye." should not be called. The name of Mr. Church was called. Mr. EVARTS - But it has been called. Mr. CHURCH-I ask to be excused, because I The PRESIDENT - It was a mistake of the was not present and do not know what the facts Secretary. were. The name of Mr. Fowler was called. The question was put upon excusing Mr. Mr. FOWLER- I have no personal knowledge Church, and it was declared carried. of this matter, and therefore I ask to be excused. The name of Mr. Duganne was called. The question was put on excusing Mr. Fowler, Mr. DUGANNE -I ask to be excused from and it was declared carried. voting, because if I vote against the amendment The name of Mr. Fuller was called. I shall be denying what I believe to be a fact, and Mr. FULLER - I was not in the bar of the if I vote for the amendment I shall be inserting a Convention when the ayes and noes were called, and certain form of verbal expression which I do not I do not know what question is before the Conwish to see go upon the record. vention, and therefore I ask to be excused. The question was put on excusing Mr. Duganne, Mr. ALVORD - I take it for granted that under and it was declared lost. the parliamentary rule, the gentleman [Mr. Fuller], Mr. DUGANNE - With the explanation that I not having been within the bar of the House, is shall not deny the fact, I vote " no." excused as a matter of course. Mr. POND -I move to reconsider the vote de- The PRESIDENT-The Chair is of that opinion. clining to excuse the gentleman from New York The name of Mr. Hatch was called. [Mr. Duganne]. I am in favor now of excusing Mr. HATCH - It seems to me that those gen him. tlemen who voted for the call of the Convention, The motion to reconsider was laid upon the table. and while the Convention was under the operation The name of Mr. Eddy was called. of that call-being the highest exercise of the Mr. EDDY - Not being present until the even- authority of the Conventioning session I desire to be excused. In accord- The PRESIDENT - Does the gentleman ask to anco with the rule adopted at the evening session be excused? I presented myself at the bar of the Convention, Mr. HATCH - -I am coming to that in a made my excuse, and was purged of my con- moment. I think that those gentlemen who voted tempt. for that call, and then dispersed with the President Mr. POND -I am opposed to excusing Mr. pro ter., are equally in contempt with the other Sddy or any other gentleman who is here and gentlemen, and more in contempt than those who haa heard what has been said upon this subject, left the Convention yesterday. I vote "ave," 753 Mr. RATHBUN —I submit the gentleman is not entitled to vote unless permitted by the Convention. Mr. HATCH-I did not ask to be excused. The PRESIDENT- The Chair understands the gentleman did not ask to be excused Mr. RATHBUN- Then I move the gentleman should be advised that he is disorderly. The PRESIDENT-The Chair did so advise him. The name of Mr. Loew was called. Mr. LOEW —I was not here yesterday, and have no personal knowledge of what transpired. I Was away upon leave of absence, but from what transpired here this morning I am satisfied that the gentlemen did disperse, and I believe that fact is not denied, therefore I vote " aye." The name of Mr. Reynolds was called. Mr. REYNOLDS-I ask to be excused, as I was absent on leave and did not return until this morning. The question was put bn excusing Mr. Reynolds, and it was declared carried. The name of Mr. L. W. Russell was called. Mr. L. W. RUSSELL- I ask to be excused. Although I was present, I am unable to say from my own knowledge whether the President pro tem. left the chamber or not. The question was put on excusing Mr. L. W. Russell. and it was declared lost. Mr. L. W. RUSSELL- Then believing it to be the fact, as stated in the amendment, I vote " aye." The name of Mr. Sherman was called. Mr. SHERMAN -I ask to be excused from voting. I was not here yesterday between the hours of two and half-past seven, and consequently I have no knowledge of the facts which are involved in this question. The question was put on excusing Mr. Sherman, and it was declared carried. The name of Mr. M. I. Townsend was called. Mr. M. I. TOWNSEND-I ask to be excused. I was present in the Convention, and know that between seventy and eighty members of this Convention know the facts to be precisely as contained in the proposed amendment. I further know that the rules of this Convention would have rendered the acts of this body between tWo and half-past seven nugatory, and irregular, and disorderly, had they continued in session or not. I find men whose parliamentary knowledge is very great, mine being none at all, assume that the keeping of this matter off the record is of such importance as renders it necessary to spend a Iarge portion of the morning when we have got a qtorth here, and therefore I fear that I may be dOintg a great wrong in voting t put the truth upon the record, and I ask to be excused. The question was put on excusing Mr. I. Towinsel, end it Was declared lost. Mr. M. I. TOWNSEND-I vote "' ye." Mr. BEADLE-My name has not been called, ad4 1 rise tos inquire why. Mr. BEADLE-I suppose that under rule 33, which says there must be a quorumThe PRESIDENT-The gentleman is in con; tempt. The PlESD)ElT —th16 Chaif will receive the t6efletm 's reason at the proper time. 95 Mr. BEADLE-Is it not a privileged question; The PRESIDENT-It is a privileged question, but not so far privileged as to override the call of the roll. The SECRETARY completed the call of the roll, and the amendment of Mr. Pond was declared carried, by the following vote: Ayes-Messrs. Ballard, Barnard, Barto, Bergen, Bickford, E. Brooks, E. P. Brooks, E. A. Browh, W. C. Brown, Carpenter, Champlain Chesebro, Cochran, Corbett, Corning, Daly, Eddy, Elidress, Hale, Harris, Hatch, Hitchman, Jarvis, Ketcham, Krum, Landdn, Loew, Mattice, Merwin, Morris, A. J. Parker, C. E. Parker, Pond, Potter, PreSident, L. W. Russell, Schell, Schoonmaker, Sihiumaker, Seymour,Silvester, Sheldon, Smith, Strong, Tappen, M. I. Townsend, S. Townsend, Weed,Young-49. Noes-Messrs. A. F. Allen, N. M. Allen, Aivord, Andrews, Barker, Bell, Case- Duganne, 0. i. Dwight, T. W. Dwight, Ely, Field, Flagler, Folger, Gould, Graves, Greeley, Hadley, Hammond, Hitchcock, Houston, Kinney Lapham, A. Lawrence, M. H. Lawrence, Ludington, Meffitt Opdyke, Prindle, Presser, Rathbuti, Root, Rumsey, Seaver, Spencer, Van Campen, Vin Cbit, Wakeman, Wales, Williams-40. Mr. SHERMAN -By the vote just taken, the Convention has virtually declared that the pioceedings under the call last evening were irregilar. The PRESIDENT - The Chair will remiind the gentleman that the pending question is the amendment proposed by the geitleman from Ontario [Mr. Folger], as amended by the gentleman from Saratoga [Mr. Pond]. Mr. LAPHAM - I move a further amendment. Mr. WEED -I rise to a point of order tiat the previous question has been ordered. The PRESIDENT-The point of Order is Well taken. The question was put on the amendment of Mr. Folger, as amended on motion of Mi. Pond, and it was declared carried. Mr. SHERMAN-I said that by tie 0ote jntit taken, the Convention had virtually decided - The PRESIDENT - The Chair will state that the pending question now is, are there any atefidments to the Journal? There being none, the Journal will be approved. Mr. SHERMAN - The Convention having virtually decided that the proceedings of ist hight were irregular, I move that the vote on the amendment, which was adopted oi my moitin, be reconsidered. The PRESIDFN'- The Chair Will Sfate that the Journal having been approved, and shoiWtg the fact of a recess being taken at t*d o'clock, by that recess the call and all proceedifWgs ttnd6r it were terminated. Mr. WEED - Is it not in order, tfien, tc expunge that portion of the Journal by *hich it ajpears that myself and other gentlemen cairi in under the custody of the sergeant-at-arnts? The PRESIDENT-The Chair h A decided the Journal correct. Mr. BELL presented the' petition of tieander Douglas and thirty-two other citizens of thfe own of' Lme, asking the right tof atch Ash in the 754 international waters bordering on this State by constitutional provision. Which was referred to the Standing Committee on the Preamble and Bill of Rights. Mr. BELL presented a further petition on the same subject. Which took a like reference. Mr. DALY-I beg leave to present the memorial of Mr. David Dudley Field, Mr. Simon Stern, and other gentlemen, composing the executive committee of the society called the Personal Representation Society, which memorial is accompanied by a report made by that body to this Convention, the object of both memorial and report being to call the attention of this Convention to the utility and necessity of adopting the views of that body in respect to personal representation. The subject-matter is one which relates to the subject now under consideration in the Committee of the Whole, and it is the wish and desire of the gentlemen presenting this memorial, unless the members of the Convention shall object to it, to ask its reference to a special committee, with a view that they may immediately report on it, during the discussion of the question now before the Committee of the Whole. I should say, in substance, the object of this memorial and report, which have been prepared with a great deal of care and embrace a, great number of reasons, is to secure a more extensive representation of the minorities in legislative bodies, and to prevent the control now obtained of elections by "political managers," as expressed in the memorial, and to do away with what has become a fact in the exercise of the political franchise, that elections, now, are matters of nomination, and not matters of the exercise of suffrage. The PRESIDENT-The Chair will inform the gentleman from New York [Mr. Daly] that by the rule he should move his committee under the head of resolutions. This memorial will lie on the table, and at the proper time will be received. Mr. FRANCIS presented the petition of forty citizens of New York, asking a constitutional provision prohibiting appropriations of the public moneys to sectarian institutions. Which was referred to the Committee on the Powers and Duties of the Legislature. Mr. BALLARD presented a petition on the same subject. Which took a like reference. Mr. M. H. LAWRENCE - I present the petition of one hundred and twenty-five citizens of Bath, Steuben county, asking that in the Constitution about to be submitted, there be also submitted a separate clause prohibiting the sale of intoxicating liquors to any person or persons as a beverage, and if adopted by a majority of votes at said election, it shall become a part of the said Constitution. The petition was referred to a select Committee on Adulterated Liquors. Mr. DUGANNE presented the petition of the Rev. John P. Brackett and one hundred and fifty. five others, against the donations of public moneys to sectarian institutions. Which was referred to the Committee on the Powers and Duties of the Legislature. Mr. FOLGER presented the petition of Au gustus T. Dobson and others on the same subject. Which took a like reference. Mr. SILVESTER presented the petition of G. A. Decker and twenty-three others, residents of the coujty of Columbia, on the same subject. Which took a like reference. Mr. EDDY presented the petition of Rev. Samuel Moore and eighteen others on the same subject. Which took a like reference. Mr. MERWIN presented the petition of William Dillenback, and fourteen others, citizens of Jefferson county, asking for a constitutional provision for the protection of fisheries in the international waters of the State. Which was referred to the Committee on the Preamble and Bill of Rights. Mr. FOWLER presented the petition of S. Mandeville and fifty-six others, of Delaware county, asking for a provision in the Constitution against sectarian donations by the Legislature. Which was referred to the Committee on the Powers and Duties of the Legislature. Mr. WICKHAM presented the petition of Buel D. Overton, Henry Gillette, and sixty-one others, citizens residing at Sayville, Suffolk county, Long Island, on the same subject. Which took a like reference. The PRESIDENT presented three petitions in favor of a constitutional provision in respect to the sale of intoxicating liquors. Which was referred to the Committee on Adulterated Liquors. Mr. HATCH presented the petition of the members of the Synod of the Presbyterian church of Buffalo against sectarian donations. Which was referred to the Committee on the Powers and Duties of the Legislature. Mr. DUGANNE presented the petition of S. Kaufman, Dr. Frederic Schutz and three hundred and twenty-one others, against prohibitory legislation. Which took a like reference. Mr. BARKER-I rise to a point of order. I believe after the Convention have adopted a resolution providing for the morning hour up to 11 o'clock, and then to go into Committee of the WholeThe PRESIDENT- The Chair understands from the Secretary that no such rule has been adopted. The PRESIDENT presented a communication from the Auditor of the Canal Department in in answer to a resolution of the Convention, adopted July 1st, in relation to the Champlain canal. Which was referred to the Committee on Canals, and ordered to be printed. The PRESIDENT presented the following communication from the Regents of the New York State University: UNIVERSITY OF THE STATE OF NEW YORK, OFFICE OF THE REGENTS, ALBANY, AUgust 6, 1867. To the Hon. Wm. A. Wheeler, President of the Convention for revising the Constitution: SIR: The fourth anniversary meeting of the University Convocation of the State of New York, 755 consisting of the head officers and professors of the colleges, academies and -other institutions of learning in the State, subject to the visitation of the Board of Regents, will be held at the lecture room of the State Agricultural Society in this city, commencing this day, and is expected to continue three days. The members of the Convention over which you preside are invited to attend the sessions, and will be cordially welcomed by the officers and members of the Convocation. Very respectfully yours, JOHN V. L. PRUYN, Chancellor of the University. S. B. WOOLWORTH, Secretary. Mr. E. BROOKS- I move that this invitation be accepted. The question was put on the motion of Mr. E. Brooks. and it was declared carried. Mr. AXTELL- I ask leave of absence for Mr. Clinton, of Erie, for to-day, who is unexpectedly required to be absent. The question was put on granting leave of absence to Mr. Clinton, and it was declared carried. Mr. HALE - I ask leave of absence for myself for one week from to-day. The reasons are owing to the necessity of being home on account of business of importance to the people of the locality I represent. The question was then put on granting leave of absence to Mr. Hale, and it was declared carried. Mr. AXTELL- I ask leave of absence for this week, for my colleague, Mr. Cheritree, on account of sickness in his family. The question was then put on granting leave of absence for Mr. Cheritree, and it was declared carried. Mr. SMITH -I ask leave of absence for myself, to-morrow and the day following, to transact some business which cannot be deferred. The question was then put on granting Mr. Smith leave of absence, and it was declared carried. Mr. HAMMOND —I ask leave of absence for my colleague, Mr. Farnum, who will necessarily be detained until Thursday, having been telegraphed to return home. The question was put on granting Mr. Farnum leave of absence. and it was declared carried. Mr. SMITH, from the Committee on Town and County officers, etc., submitted the following report: The Committee on Town and County Officers, other than judicial, their Election or Appointment, Tenure of Office, Compensation, Powers and Duties, respectfully submit as a substitute for Article X, of the present Constitution, the following: ARTICLE -. SECTION 1. There shall be elected in each county by the qualified voters therein, at the time of hold. ing general elections, a sheriff county treasurer, county clerk, county supervisor, and as many coroners as maybe prescribed by the Legislature; who shall hold their offices respectively for the term of three years, unless sooner removed by competent authority. Sheriffs shall hold no other office during their incumbency, and shall not be re-eligible, act as under-sheriff or deputy for the succeeding term; but the retiring sheriff shall finish all business remaining in his hands at the expiration of his term, for which purpose his commission and official bond shall continue in force. They may be required to renew their security from time to time, and in default of giving such new security, their offices shall be deemed vacant. The county shall never be responsible for their acts. The Governor may remove any officer in this section mentioned, for incapacity, neglect of duty, malfeasance, intemperance, turpitude or crime, first giving to such officer a copy of the charges against him, and an opportunity of being heard in his defense. ~ 2. There shall be appointed in each county by the Governor, a district attorney, who shall hold his office for the term of three years, unless sooner removed by competent authority. The Governor may remove the district attorney for incapacity, neglect of duty, malversation, intemperance, turpitude or crime, first giving to such officer a copy of the charges against him, and an opportunity of being heard in his defense. ~ 3. There shall be elected in each organized town by the qualified electors therein, at such time as the Legislature may prescribe, one supervisor, one town clerk, one collector, one or three assessors as the electors may determine, and as many commissioners of highways and overseers of the poor as may be prescribed by law. The supervisor shall hold his office for the term of two years, and the other officers in this section mentioned for the term of one year, unless sooner removed by competent authority. ~ 4. All county and town offices (except judicial) which may be in existence on the adoption of this Constitution, shall thereafter continue, with the powers, duties, and incidents thereto pertaining, until abrogated or modified by law; and the incumbents of said offices, and also the several officers mentioned in this article, shall retain the powers, and perform the duties pertaining to their respective offices at the time of the adoption of this Constitution, until the same are changed or modified by law. The Legislature may, by general laws, create such new town and county offices, not inconsistent with the provisions of this Constitution, as the public weal shall require; abrogate such town and county offices as are not specifically established by this article; regulate the election of all officers named in this article, and provide for the election or appointment of such as are not herein named; prescribe the powers and duties of all county and town officers, except judicial; provide for the giving of security by any of said officers for the faithful discharge of their duties; provide for the removal of all county and town officers (except judicial) for whose removal provision is not otherwise made in this article; declare the cases in which any such office shall be deemed vacant, and provide for filling vacancies in office; but in case of elective officers, no person appointed to fill a vacancy, shall hold his office by virtue of such appointment, longer than the balance of the term in which such vacancy occurs. Q 5. All couuty and town officers shall reside within their respective counties and towns, and * 756 shall keep their respective offices at such places the powers, and perform all the duties pertaining therein as may be directed by law. And al such to the office of chairman of the board at the time oficers shall be subject to indictment for malfeass of the adoption of this Constitution, and such as ance, misfeasance orneglect of official duty; and upon may thereafter be prescribed by law; Provided, conviction thereof, ther offices shallbecome vacant. however, That he shall not be entitled to vote ~ 6. The county supervisor and town super- upon any question before the board, except in case visors chosen in each county, shall constitute a of a tie, when he may give the casting vote. All board to be known as "The board of supervisors acts and resolutions of the board shall, upon the of the county of -," by which name they passage thereof, and during the session of tlle board may sue and be sued; and in which capacity they at which the same were passed, be signed by the may make and use a common seal, and enact president, with his approval or disapproval thereordinances and by-laws not inconsistent with the of; and no act or resolution thus disapproved shall laws of the State. They shall meet statedly, at be valid unless upon reconsideration of the same, least once in each year, at the county seat of their a majority of all the members elected shall agree county, and may hold special and adjourned to its passage notwithstanding such disapproval. meetings; and shall have such powers, and per- ~ 9. The Legislature may, by law, provide for form such duties as a board, as may belong to an increase and equalization of representation in and devolve upon boards of supervisors at the the boards of supervisors, by an election of repretime of the adoption of this Constitution, or as sentative supervisors from towns, villages and may thereafter be prescribed by law. They shall cities, with such powers and duties as members appoint a clerk, who shall keep a journal of their of said boards, but not otherwise, as may be preproceedings, and transact such other business scribed by law. pertaining to his office as may be by them or by law required, and whose compensation shall be EXPLANATION. fixed by them, and paid from the county treasury. Your committee have deemed it unwise to pro~ 7. The board of supervisors of each county, pose many changes in the tenure of office, or in a majority of whom shall constitute a quorum, the powers and duties of town and county officers. shall, under such general regulations as may be Most of these officers are our common law prescribed by law, have exclusive legislative and inheritance. Their names and functions are administrative power over, and superintendence familiar to the people-their powers, duties, limiand control of, such local and internal affairs and tations, and responsibilities, well defined by a fiscal concerns within their county as are not other- long series of adjudications. No change should wise provided by this Constitution; including the be made which does not promise advantages, establishment, construction, regulation, and dis- clearly and decidedly outweighing the inconcontinuance of roads, public landings, ferries and veniences that necessarily attend any change in bridges, except over navigable streams; the the organic law of a State. But, in obedience to establishment, incorporation, regulation, and dis- the public demand, and in accordance with their contiiuance of plank, turnpike, and macadimized own judgment, your committee have incorporated roads, and horse railroads; the raising of money in the foregoing proposed article the following new by loan or tax for town, village, or county pur- features, to-wit: poses; the confirmation of the proeedings 1. Additional and exclusive legislative and of towns and incorporated villages, and of administrative jurisdiction is given to boards of county, town, and village officers (other than supervisors, in relation to local and internal judicial).; the relief of county, town, and village affairs, and fiscal concerns within their respective fficers (other than judicial), from penalties in- counties. This change, it is believed, is imperacurred in the discharge or neglect of official duty; tively demanded. The vast and varied local the purchase, management, and sale of real estate interests of the State annually press with great and personal property, for the use and beAefit of severity upon the Legislature. A very large the county; the erection of new towns and proportion of its acts are of a strictly local wards, changing the names thereof, and the alter- character, in which the people at large have no atioa of town and ward boundaries; the widen- direct interest. ing, deepening, straighteuing, and cleaning of the Members are naturally more interested in the ehaniels of streams (except navigable streams), affairs of their immediate constituents, who made atd the drainage of swamps and marshes; the them, than in the interests of the State at large; correctia of erroneous and illegal assessments, and hence, general legislation is pushed aside to and. reftidling of mnoeys collected or paid on give place to local and private schemes. It often SiD e assessments, the compensation of town and happens that the merits of these schemes are ~euity o4:cers, except supervisors, which shall be known only to the local members who have them ixeO ly tthe Legislature; th care and support of in charge, and who, perhaps, are employed as town a^ Ceonty popr;. togetlha with sawbh ethw attorneys or agents to engineer them through wB3iteta of a loceal a interIal chwaIctea as tile the Legislature for a consideration. Moreover, ae'gattin may p^resibe;, ani also aUl other these private and local schemes give occasion for *(era in gegatdw to w4h'ch boards ofe supervisors the exercise of that peculiar species of legislative Way hlSvejuuisadie at t t th ti B tthe adption tactics known aa "log-rollng." Worse than all, ic thits Cs9tiu.i0pn, subjeet, to, Lsch change and they give employment to that class of venal go. fdijacatipFt as: Raey threaQfti be. Btgie by lAe betweens known as "lobbyists" who annually in eior4Foea, ikh ts Outi tion. infest the Legislature, and "ply their vocation", 7.sh coRtyis -sieswxrp shQall be peresident with a skill perseverance and success worthy of ( 4he o *ir of o f rviaes^. a Bsai hjsmw, aw S ter ea es The change proposed would 787 transfer local questions to local boards, where they could be properly ventilated and understood. It would greatly lessen the facilities for corruption, and leave the Legislature to pursue with honesty and deliberation, its legitimate business of general legislation. 2. This large increase of power in the local boards, suggests the propriety of some check upon hasty, inconsiderate and corrupt legislation. To supply this want a county supervisor is proposed, who is to act as president of the board of supervisors, have a casting vote in case of a tie, and a veto power. Elected by the whole county, he would represent the county, and not any particularlocality or interest. From the importance and dignity of the office, it may reasonably be supposed that it would be filled by men of character, who would bring ability and experience to the aid of the board in the discharge of its important duties. Sitting as a member of the board, and listening to its discussions, he would be prepared to promptly interpose a veto in cases demanding his interference. 3. The inequality of representation existing in boards, as at present constituted, has caused considerable complaint. For example, Watervliet, in the county of Albany, with a population of 27,000 and upward, has only one representative in the board; while several towns in the same county, with a population of less than 3,000, have each one representative, and power in the board equal to the populous and wealthy town of Watervliet. In the county of Fulton, one town has a population of about 10,000, and another of about 600, yet they are equal in representation and power in the board. This inequality exists to a greater or less extent in most of the counties of the State; and with an increase of legislative power in the board it would be more sensibly felt. To remedy the difficulty, authority is conferred upon the Legislature to provide for an increase and equalization of representation, by an election of representative supervisors from towns, villages and cities, to act as members of the county boards. This provision would cure the evil complained of, without disturbing the present familiar system. Town supervisors would exist as before, with the same undivided powers and duties. They would act in their individual and independent capacity as town supervisors, and also as members of the county board of supervisors; while the representative supervisors would act only as members of the county board. 4. The term of supervisors is increased fronm one to two years. It was thought that the increased duties and importance of the office under the proposed change would, for obvious reasons, make a longer term desirable. It will be observed that the leading and most important of these changes is the transfer of local legislation from the Legislature to the boards of supervisors. The others are mainly subordinate to and complemental of this. As a whole they form, in connection with existing provisions, a complete system, which it is thought will meet the public demand without essentially disturbing the present order of things, or producing any serious inconveniences. 5. The district attorney is to be appointed by the Governor. His office is not representative, and there is no good reason why it should be elective by popular vote. On the contrary, there are cogent reasens why it should be removed as far as possible from the political arena, and its incumbent made independent of the favor, caprice and resentment of those most likely to receive his official attentions. It is not to be expected that a district attorney will be zealous in the prosecution of those to whom he owes his position; and there is too much reason to believe that, under our elective system, many offenders go "'unwhipped of justice" solely for the reason that they have a " friend at court" in the person of the prosecuting officer. The appointive system would not only remedy this evil, but secure a higher grade of incumbents. Grant that many able and worthy men fill the office under the elective system, it is true, nevertheless, that in many cases men totally unfit for the position, intellectually, morally, and professionally, are foisted into office. This result is produced by a skillful manipulation of the political wires, the power of caucus, a corruption fund at the polls, and the votes of those who desire immunity from the penalties of violated law. The high position of the Chief Executive of the State, his personal responsibility, and the pride he would naturally feel in the success of his administration, would insure a judicious exercise of the appointing power; and 'there is good reason to believe that the changB proposed would result in a purer, and more efficient administration of criminal law. These are the only material changes that a majority of your committee have felt at liberty to recommend. And, in this connection, it may be proper to state that there was not entire unanimity in the committee on the question of the appointment of district attorney, a minority preferring his election by the people. The other provisions of the article submitted, embrace substantially the features of the present Constitution and laws upon the same subject, so combined and expressed as to present in our written Constitution a complete system. The subject assigned to your committee is so intimately connected with several others, that they have found it difficult to discharge their duties without trenching; or seeming to trench, unon ground assigned to other committees. They have endeavored to avoid this as far as practicable; but, doubtless, more or less modifications of the article reported by them will be required to harmonize it with other parts of the Constitution as they may be reported by committees, or adopted by the Convention. Your committee having performed the duty imposed upon them, ask to be discharged from that further consideration of the subject, and of ali matters relating thereto which have been referred to them. ALBANY, August 6, 1867. H. E. SMITH, Chairman. M. BICKFORD, ABRAHAM LAWRENCEg 0. H.1 P. KINNEY, Except as to the appointment of Dist. Attorney. W;. B. SHELDON. 758 The undersigned, while uniting in the above vote by which the resolution in regard to the clos. report, nevertheless dissents from so much of the ing the street was adopted. report as relates to the term of office of supervi- The motion to reconsider was laid on the table. sors, and to the election of county treasurers. I Mr. LAPHAM offered the following resolution: prefer one year as the term of office of supervi- Resolved, That the roll of delegates be called sors, and the appointment of county treasurers after the reading of the Journal, each day and by the boards of supervisors, the names of all delegates absent without leave M. BICKFORD. shall be entered in the Journal for the day. Mr. WEED- I rise to debate that resolution. Except as to the mode of appointment of district The resolution giving rise to debate was laid attorneys, and also further as to the election of over under the rule. town officers. believing that it will be an improve- Mr. TAPPEN - I offer the following resolument to elect one or more assessors in each tion. county as county officers. Resolved, That the sessions of this Convention JOHN P. ROLFE. on Mondays, commence at half-past seven P. M. Mr. GREELEY -On that I ask the ayes and The PRESIDENT - The report will be refer- noes. red to the Committee of the Whole and ordered Mr. RATHBUN-I rise to a point of order. to be printed, and, if there is no objection, There is a standing rule on that subject nowthe committee will be discharged from the fur- that the Convention shall meet on each succeedther consideration of the subject. ing Monday in the evening. Mr. SHERMAN -In connection with the report The PRESIDENT -The Chair will accept the I offer the following resolution which I desire to explanation of the gentleman, [Mr. Rathbun]. be sent to the Committee on Printing. The rule has been created in its absence. That Resolved, That there be printed of the report of being the fact the resolution is not now in order. the standing Committee on Town and County Mr. TAPPEN -I am not aware that this ConOfficers other than Judicial, etc., recommending vention by any rule has adopted an hour for the an article of constitutional amendment, two thou- evening session on Monday. sand extra copies for the use of the Convention. Mr. SHERMAN -I think the gentleman from Mr. KETCHAM - I offer the following resolu- Cayuga [Mr. Rathbun] is mistaken as to the tion. adoption of any rule. There is an order adopted The SECRETARY proceeded to read the reso- which specifies it shall be the order of the Conlution as follows: vention until otherwise ordered, regulating the Resolved, That the proceedings recorded upon sessions on these days, but no rule has been the Journal declaring certain members of this adopted in that manner. Convention in contempt at the session of the Con- Mr. RATHBUN - Then it must be attacked in vention held at half-past seven P. M. on the 5th a different mode. day of August, 1867, and the recitals in said Tee PRESIDENT-The Chair understands the Journal, declaring that certain members were resolution of the gentleman from Oneida [Mr. T. brought to the bar of the Convention under charge W. Dwight] does not conflict with the adoption of the sergeant-at-arms and excused, etc., be ex- of this resolution. punged from the Journal of the Convention. Mr. SHERMAN-I ask the reading of the resWhich was laid over under the rule. olution which was adopted on Friday. Mr. KETCHAM - I offer the following reso- The resolution giving rise to debate. was laid lution: over under the rule. The SECRETARY proceeded to read the reso- Mr. GREELEY - I move the following resolulution as follows: tion on the same subject as that of the gentleman Resolved, That the street between the Capitol from Ontario [Mr. Lapham]: and Congress Hall be closed, and kept closed Resolved, That the roll of the Convention be during the further sessions of the Convention, called each day directly after the reading of the Mr. KETCHAM - I ask for the immediate Journal, and every member who shall appear to consideration of that. It is a question of privilege, be absent without leave shall thereupon be fined and it is utterly impossible by reason of the con- six dollars, to be deducted by the Comptroller in stant rattling of carriages, for us in this part of the paying his compensation. chamber, to hear anything that goes on in the The resolution giving rise to debate, was laid Convention. The street is not a public street, over under the rule. but it belongs to the State, and for this reason, The'Convention resolved itself into the ComI ask it be closed. mittee of the Whole on the report of the ComThe question was put on the resolution of Mr. mittee of the Legislature, its Organization, etc., Ketcham, and it was declared adopted. Mr. FULLER, of Monroe, in the chair. Mr. DALY-Instead of asking a special com- The CHAIRMAN announced the pending queamittee with reference to the petition which T have tion to be upon the amendment offered by Mr. the honor to present, in reference to personal Ballard to the amendment offered by Mr. E. representation, I ask for the reference to the Brooks, to the article reported by the committee. Committee of the Whole having that subject in Mr. BALLARD called for a division of the charge. question. There being no objection the petition took the Mr. FLAGLER - I wish to inquire if the first reference requested. part of the proposition, providing for thirty-two Mr. RATHBUN-I move to reconsider the districts, is adopted, and the other phrt in regard to 759 making an apportionment, is voted down, whether it would be in order then for me to move the substitute which I indicated the other day. The CHAIRMAN - The Chair is of the opinion it will then be in order. Mr. BALLARD - In calling for a division of the question, I wish it to be taken on the first sentence of the amendment, the one dividing the State into thirty-two districts. Mr. BARKER -If the committee are now about to come to a vote on the amendment of the gentlemen from Cortland [Mr. Ballard], I wish to make a statement. There has been considerable feeling manifested against the report of the committee in regard to the manner in which they have apportioned the districts of the State. I wish to say that the members favoring the large districts, in making this vote, will regard it as voting for the principle of the large districts, and if it shall be sustained, the manner of dividing the State, if we divide it at all, it will be considered applicable, and gentlemen will vote upon the principle of large or small districts. Mr. SEYMOUR-I wish to inquire of the Chair whether it would be in order to pass over this resolution, and consider other parts of the report? The CHAIRMAN-The Chair is of the opinion that it is not now in order, that the Convention having decided in what order the Committee shall proceed, the committee cannot depart from it without the permission of the Convention. Mr. S. TOWNSEND-As I understand the motion, it is whether our districts shall be large or small. Before voting affirmatively upon the large district system I would prefer that some modification should be made of the first section, which has been passed over rather informally. I would ask whether the Chair thinks a proposition relating to that would be now in order. The CHAIRMAN-The Chair is of the opinion it is not in order. Mr. S. TOWNSEND-I will detain the Convention but a minute in reading what I propose, to add to the first section. SEC. 1. Every elector of this State shall be elegible for any of the offices herein named. The supreme legislative power of this State is vested in a Senate and Assembly. The Legislature at its first session after the adoption of this Constitution, and from time to time thereafter shall confer upon the several boards of town, county, village and city officers, the necessary and appropriate powers of legislation and administration for the local government of their several districts. I will further remark that this is giving force to the dormant seventeenth section of the old Constitution, which is in these words: " The Legislature may confer on the boards of supervisors of the several counties of the State, such further powers of local legislation and administration as they shall from time to time prescribe." I will only remark that another committee has just reported a code in reference to this subject,which apparently requires some such form in the act we are about to perfect. With these remarks I submit it to the Chair. The CHAIRMAN - It is not now in order. Mr. S. TOWNSEND - I will move it when it is in order. I am prepared to vote negatively, on the large district system until I know something about it. Mr. EVARTS —I hope, Mr. Chairman, that the sense of the Convention will be intelligently and deliberately expressed upon the principle of the organization of the Senate, now fairly before it, separated entirely from any embarrassment or dissatisfaction that may find place in the minds of any members in regard to the actual or even the probable apportionment of the Senate through the State. I hope also, sir, that this sense of the Convention will be expressed upon this general principle, separated entirely from any predilections or aversions that may find place in the mind of any member in respect to the somewhat novel mode of taking the suffrage, which is included in the proposition of the gentleman from Westchester [Mr. Greeley]. For that novel mode, concerning which much may be said that is interesting, and much may be said that is useful, can be as well applied to a system which divides the State into eight senatorial districts as into fifteen: and on the other hand those of us who have committed ourselves to the large districts, are not necessarily nor finally bound to a specific number of eight, if good reasons can be given why, nevertheless, there should be a somewhat larger number of districts. The proposition, as I take it, sir, is this, whether in arranging for the use of the suffrage, in the election of one of the houses, there shall be an effort at this compound senate district which should enable, in the arrangement of that branch of the Legislature, these two important ideas to be carried out. First, that there shall be an extension of the area of the suffrage from which, by election, these Senators are to derive their power, that will reserve the representation in that branch of the Legislature from localization and control by minor and limited arrangements of every kind. Secondly, whether by this compound district system, and from the introduction of the number of four Senators as representatives of the same constituency, there may be a convenient and a symmetrical and a reasonable mode for securing greater permanence and con tinuity in the constitution of that branch of the Legislature. The importance of this cannot be over-estimated, in my judgment. For it will be observed at once that, although it is possible by the single district system to preserve, in a modified form, the continuity of the existence of the Senate by providing that only in certain parts of the State, once in each year, elections shall take place, and thus the whole State be consulted only once in four years, yet that is much the best mode of securing the continuity of the representation in the Senate which appeals to the whole State and to every voter in the State at each annual election, to give his suffrage in respect to the member of the Senate that is to be chosen. I think, therefore, that all gentlemen who favor this longer term, and this provision of continuity in the body by separating the election into classes, must feel that the compound system gives so much the more real and thorough opportunity for the carrying out of these ideas as to lengthening the term, than the separation of the single districts into classes for annual election. The roters tunder this latter system, msust feel that system as well as under the new, be y are exlu exc except once in four years, from touches nothing but this imperfection of our any voice in the constitution of the Senate; nature, and we come to the point which alone whereas, under the system by which the districts institutes comparison between the two organizaare large, all the voters cast their votes for the tions, when we inquire whether the old organnator representing thatdistrict annually. One ization rejected the intrusion of corruption, enator comes to be elected every year, and every and whether the new one cherishes and retains voter in the State votes every year in respect to it. There is the point; that the only instance of the constitution of the Senate. Now, Mr. Chair- corruption finding place in the old Senate, adduced man, I am disposed to think that the question by the gentleman, was evidenced by the expulbefore the Convention is one of the most import- sion of Senators inculpated. But who has seen ant, both in the minds of the members and in the anything like action tending in that direction in feeli'gs, wishes, and thoughts of the people of the body as composed under the present system jis State, that is likely to engage our atten-of election? I say, then, that, talking as we are, ton. believe that the real public demand not of human nature, which we cannot remodel, for a Convention, and a revision of the Consti- but of organization which we can, and are called tutioip, attaches itself more to an interest in, upon to remodel, the argument only is, that the n' a dissatisfaction with the condition of the. old organization not only tended to exclude, but Legislature of the State, and of the Judiciary actualy expelled impurities from it. Now, Mr. of t'e S:tate than to any other topics that are in- Chairman, if it be conceded that we need to, cluded within the purview of the Constitution ipay sopm attention to the orgaization of I agree that, in regard to a certain inportant jthe Legislature, in order that'what is strong and miatter of admipistration, that is for the arrange- pure may be confirmed, and what is weak and mnent, o0 the government of cities of large popula- corrupt may be rejected, what modes have we lation, there is certainly great interest felt, and it at our command? Manifestly, within the, liHmp is one, of the most diffidult and important subjects of the proposition, nothing but a change of the that is to come before us. But that is, after all, basis of the suffrage, which no one professes, and but a question of administration, and in regard to which certainly I do not desire, or a prolongation the Legislature and the judiciary, I think there of the term, or a remodeling of the district of sufis a conviction in, the minds of the people frage. What have we within our power with re, of this State that there needs to be an gard to the remodeling of the district of suffrage elevation, a conformation, a purification of but the question of an enlargement of the disboth of those fundamental departments of this trict or of the retention of the present single goyernment, as they are of all free governments district? What have we, then, but this precise Now, as I understand the propositions presented question before us, and this proves what and enforced here in favor of a single district I have stated before, that beyond the. argument system for the Senate, they class themselves under that the Senate is satisfactory, there is. no one or the other of these two heads; first, that of other argument for the retention of the present contentment, for there is no evil to be corrected; system than of despair of making it better, howand, second, of despair of correcting it, if there ever much it needs improvement. Is there any be an evil that needs correction. If I agreed escape from this proposition? It seems t me.not. with my friend from Rensselaer county [Mr. M. I. The gentleman from Kings [Mr. Bergen], himTownsend] opposite me, who so justly'connects self so pure and honest, and represeqtriqg, in, his wisdom with gray hairs, that there was nothing opinion, a region free from corrupton, gives in the constitution of the Senate that unfavorably us what is supposed to be an axipm of contrasted with the body as it was arranged and moral or political philosophy. The gentlefilled under the old Constitution, I would' agree man says that the stream cannot rise, higher with him that we should not experiment in mere than its fountain. I am not disposed to thaink clrcumstantial changes having no necessity. I we have any such certainty in the movement wil agree that changes without substance.are not, of moral and political influenpes as that, which deairable. Changes without real and grave rea- controls this physical law, with which the sons even are not to be encouraged. But I must analogy is suggestive. But, sir, does not the appeal, to the expression in every form, as. it gentleman know and feel that. though the stream ces fromn members of this Convention, to cannot rise higher than the fountain, it may, fall every channel of public sentiment, whether much lower, and that in its course it may imbibe at tie hustings or: in the newspapers, whether many contaminations that it does not derive from its in the legialative bodies themselves or in source? We cannot remodel society. We cannot tbhe d4eliberations of independent organizations, restore human nature from.its depravity. What we of citizens.who seek some remedy for the ills are occupied with is the practical considerations under which we suffer, that the condition of the of what is within our power, and what is attrjLegislatur.e is not satisfactory. I shall spend no buted to our duty. This power and this 4dlty 4are more time upon.this proposition than to say, that limited to provide an, organization by which, if tha, gentleman was unfortunate in the single the fountaiq be pure, the stream shall be kept as pQitof Cqomparison, to which he attracted the high and as. pure as the fountain. These being atEntionqf thias body, between the old Senate the limits, then, within which we act, is there ar4tJ.therqqw. Corruptiondoes npt exist. in, rgan- anything in this proposition that, after all our iz^ora, itlexists. in individuals. It exists in our. efforts to attain the benefits which, theqreticallv, hi,: inpqrf'ect condition. When he, says are conceded maybe derived from a larger constituth, oorrupt, men. were elected under, the. old ency, yet prastically, it will all fall back into the 761 control and routine of local machinery. This, Mr. as a representative of the large constituency, but Chairman, is the argument of despair. This is an serving always the selfish and narrow views e, abdication of all effort, of all will, of all courage, the local interests of his personal residence, will of all sagacity, of all prudence, on our part, and not find that this desertion of duty is visited to leave the evil as it is, as a necessary conse- upon him by the resentment and the rejection quence of the arrangement of our society, and, the large constituency. so, remediless. Now, sir, is it not apparent that At this point the gavel fell, twenty minuta if you, in your organization, lay out a system ac- having expired. cording to which, upon its fair working, there is M r. POND - So far as the report of the majors an opportunity for the suffrage, and an opportunity ity of the committee proposes to increase the for the public service, to bring the representation compensation of members of the Legislature, it to a higher level than it occupies upon has my unqualified assent. In my judgment the existing system; and if the history of very many if not the greater portion of the evils the State enables a practical comparison complained of as resulting from the present aysbetween the standard, as it was reached and tem are properly traceable to the fact, that meme ' maintained under the large district system, and bers of the Legislature are not now provided wit!h the standard as it has been reached and main- an adequate compensation. In theory a rile that tai[ed under the small district system, that if this requires the representatives of the people, to pertest of experience and the teaching of reason, we form the public business, at their own exense corncan bring to it, both show us that there is an op- paratively, in addition to the time necessarily deportunity for better influences and for better re- voted to that object, is a vicious one, and cannot be suits under the large district system, we do our defended on any satisfactory principle. There is no 4uty, and we do but our duty, when, under the reason why a private individual should be select. coplbined instruction thus given to us by experi- ed to do the business of the State without receive ence and reason, we adopt the system of large ing a just and adequate compensation. The districts. I will agree that the fundamental people are able to discharge all just claims upon difficulty, which our form of government is no them. The State is neither a mendicant nor a more free from than any other, that the selfish miser. that any citizen devoting his time and perobjects of those who desire to govern, not for the forming labor in her behalf should do so to any public good, but for their own share in the pri- extent gratuitously; and should such a rule univate advantages of government, will attack every versally obtain, the result would be to impose the form of organization, will invade every method obligation of holding office and discharging the and style of the public service, and will con- duties incident thereto upon the wealthy class of stantly require the persistent efforts of all good citizens, thereby creating a species of moneyed arismen to keep up the standard of public and political tocracy-a kind of privileged class-the existence morality and action to a level suitable to the true of which is wholly inconsistent with our free instiservice of the State. But, it is said, in the tutions. The only alternative to this would be conventions which shall nominate for the large the choice of men for legislators not able pecu. senate districts these influences of locality will niarily to bear their own expenses at the State manifest themselves in the presence and efforts of capital, and the necessary result of that system the delegates. That is. true. But in the present would be such official action on the part of the system there is no check upon the localizing in- members as to supply by the drippings, of unclean fluence, for local delegates constitute the whole legislation the want of an adequate compensation. body in the single districts to pass upon nomina- In practice, too, such has been the result, if we tions. If there be anything in this arrangement can correctly judge from the almost unanimous of the large districts in the particulars to which voice of the people and the press upon this suls I now ask attention, it is that, although local ar- ject. Nor is this all. In this country, where rangements are likely to follow, and cannot be there is no aristocracy of wealth, but where very wholly prevented, yet every part of the district nearly every man is practically as well as theois able to hold the rest to the condition retically the "architect of his own fortune," nI that, in consulting the fair share of local repre- man having important business of his own, no sentation, they, nevertheless, are to furnish man of energy or of enterprise, will be willingcandidates that shall be acceptable throughout to surrender his own business, neglect his the senate district, and that may be fairly and own affairs, and voluntarily engage in the properly accredited with due pride and confidence business of the State, and devote his time and by the whole district as worthy to represent talents to the good of the public at his, own tho whlole. It being established, therefore, that expense. It is apparent that such ar lria in the primary and, nominating conventions we ciple would operate disastrously upon the, may gain something in their action of a more best interests of the State. Indeed it has sW liberal and elevated character, let us see whether operated in practice. The man who has nothing these better Senators, when once chosen, else to do, is the one who can attend to politis are not better situated, in the largeness of their and run party conventions, and thus manage sand constituencies, to serve tlhe general public interest; control elections. The effect has been to throw a, whether they do not gain a larger area of inde- class of men into the Legislature, not able in fact pendent, disinterested, intelligent observers of to work without pay, and hence, it is to be feared tlheir senatorial course, upon whom, perhaps, they too much of bad and corrupt legislation has beau may fall back for vindication, and, if need be, for the result. I repeat, much of this will be avQide: re-election; whether a Senator who, after he is by adopting the proposition of the oraommte in: chosen, chows himself inadequate to his position respect to the compensation of members. But the 96 762 committee go further. They propose to return the delegates from that portion of the district from from the single district system for the election of which he comes; and so, in turn, will the friends members of the Senate, adopted in 1846, to the of that candidate take the other candidates in the larger district system substantially in existence at same way, each locality recommending its own that time, and which was then abrogated. Now, particular candidate, and taking the other upon first, is this right? Second, if right is it ex- the like recommendation from the other localties. pedient? I am constrained to say, that in my Now what is there in this operation at all tending judgment, it is neither right nor expedient. to secure a "better class" of Senators? Nothing First, as to the right. It is proposed by the at all. And when elected, how will it be? To committee to divide the State into eight senate whom is the Senator responsible? To just no one districts, instead of thirty-two as at present exist- at all. His responsibility will be diffused over ing, and organized, from which four Senators are so large a territorial space as to be without to be chosen, as provided in the article submitted appreciable weight resting upon him. Moreover, by them, except in the first district, which is ac- this was one of the very objections to the system corded five. The effect of this system, if adopted, which caused its rejection originally, and the will be to remove the representative further from adoption of the single district system in its stead. the electoral body than he is by the present mode In the Convention of 1846, which adopted the of election. This, under our present system of single district system, the necessity of the change - representative government, is a grave objection. I was very plainly stated by Mr. Wright, a delegate regard it as essential to the proper working of our to that Convention from the county of Sullivan, system that the relation between the representa- and a member of the Committee on the Organizative and the constituent body shall be as close tion of the Legislature, and now one of the and intimate as possible. In order that this judges of the court of appeals. He is reported should be secured, small districts are absolutely to have argued as follows on this question: indispensable. In large districts, such as are pro- " What, said Mr. Wright, has created the desire posed by the committee, it is utterly impossible with the people for single districts? Why have that any one Senator could be personally known complaints been made in relation to the present by any considerable proportionate number of his arrangement? Because an important object is constituents. Now, if to be ignorant of the to be gained by bringing the Senator home to his character and qualifications of the representative constituents, by making him familiar with his is a benefit to the constituent, and if to be ignor- constituency, and enabling kim to acquire an acant of the wants and desires of the larger curate knowledge of their peculiar condition and portion of his constituents on the part of wants. The county which he had the honor to the representative be on the whole judi- represent was situated in the second senatorial cious and desirable under a popular gov- district; the district was extensive in territory, ernment such as ours is, then this large district and he doubted whether two of the Senators now system recommended by the committee is the representing her had ever set foot within the limits one we ought to adopt; but if, on the other of Sullivan; and certain it is that those Senators hand, it is desirable and essential that the repre- were found last winter in these halls directly opsentative chosen to represent the people who are posing by their votes her dearest interests." to vote for him, should be known to the electoral Mr. R. Campbell, another member of that combody whose interests he is elected to guard and mittee, is also reported as having sustained the promote, and also desirable that the agent or rep- single district system proposed by the comresentative should know and be acquainted with mittee in the Convention of 1846, as follows: the opinions, wants and necessities of those whom " He said that if any one fact should be prominent he is chosen to represent, then this large district in this discussion relative to the duty of this system ought, in my judgment, to be rejected, un- Convention, it was the fact that complaints had so less, indeed, its advocates can point out benefits long been made of misrepresentation in the legiswhich are to flow from its adoption that will lative bodies. He referred to the instructions compensate for those that are sacrificed by a sur- given by the nominating conventions in relation to render of the existing system. To my mind they this subject as an indication of the popular will. can point out no such advantages which can The districts, as now organized, were a system of accrue either to representative or constituent misrepresentation and not of representation. from this proposed advance backward from small Some of them embraced a territory of some two to large districts. It is urged by the learned hundred or three hundred miles, and it could not chairman of the committee [Mr. Merritt], and by be supposed that one elector in one hundred other gentlemen on this floor who advocate this could be acquainted with their senatorial candichange, if I understand them, that the change date. Henco, the single senate district syswill make the office more honorable, and secure tem had been adopted by the committee." the election of a better class of men. Is this so? Mr. Crooker, a delegate from Cattaraugus in that I confess I cannot see it. How will the candi- Convention, is also reported to have said in regard dates be selected, who are to make this "better to this large district system: class" of Senators? Manifestly by a convention "The question under discussion was one of delegates from each county in the district. most deeply interesting to the people of CatNow, it will under a large district system very often taraugus. Their district, as gentlemen would occur, that the most of the delegates themselves perceive by looking at the map, embraced a will not know all the men who will receive the single range of counties, commencing with nomination for Senators. They will have to take Chenango and ending with Cattaraugus. the candidate proposed on the recommendation of With an average breadth of about forty miles, the 763 length was not far from two hundred and thirty. In shape it resembled a piece of ordinary shirting stretched to its utmost limit. The people of Cattaraugus had for a series of years been compelled to vote for Senators of whom they knew nothing. He ventured to assert that nineteentwentieths of the people of that county, in every three cases out of four, had never heard of their candidate for Senator until they found his nomination in the newspapers. Such, with all his advantages and knowledge of men in the district, had been his own condition. And for all practical purposes of representation, Cattaraugus might as well have been connected with Suffolk and the counties on Long Island. There was no communion of feeling between the people of Cattaraugus and Chenango. There was no union of interest between them except upon those great questions that affect and interest the State as a whole. The people of these counties on questions of a local character - often the most deeply felt- were antipodes of each other. If there was any one question upon which the people of that county were unanimous, it was in demanding the single district system. The expression of their opinion had on this subject been universal. They desired the privilege of knowing the candidates for the senatorial office. And they demanded it as a right of this Convention." The above quotations are taken from the Argus edition of the Debates in the Convention of 1846, and are but specimens. They contain not only argument but evidence also as to the workings of the large district system when that "better class" of Senators were sent to the Senate. And to this indictment of that old and exploded system there was scarcely any denial in the Convention of 1846, and its truth and justice was affirmed by a vote of 79 against, to 31 in favor of it, which vote justly swept it out of existence. Its readoption now by this Convention, without any public demand to that effect, would be worse than a blunder-it would be a crime against representative government. If the system could not be made endurable by the giants of those days then occupying seats in the Senate, surely it cannot be made so now when the Senate is no longer a judicial body-the highest court in the Stateand hence does not now attract to it, as it doubtless then did, the best legal talent in the State. I conclude, then, that it would not be right to adopt the large district system reported by the committee. It would be much more objectionable to adopt the system now, after the lapse of so long a period, and consequently large augmentation of population in the State than it was in 1846, and the reasons which were formerly argued with so much force and truth in favor of its abrogation are much more potent now against its re-adoption. Second. Is it expedient now to adopt the system proposed, even though it were admitted f be better than the single district system? I think not. There has been no call for such a change on the part of the people-none at all. And for this Convention to undertake to load down this Constitution which is to be framed here with so radical a change, and one so entirely uncalled for by the people, and which will surely encounter more or less hostility from the various localities which may be unfavorably affected, is, in my opinion, wholly inexpedient, and I shall, therefore, favor the amendment proposed by the gentleman from Cortland [Mr. Ballard], so far as single districts are concerned, in the hope that we may adhere to the present Constitution so far as it met the public expectation, and amend it only in those respects called for by the people and demanded by the best interests of the State. Mr. LUDINGTON -- Mr. Chairman, tho unanimous report of a committee, composed of intelligent, high-minded gentlemen, of both political parties and located in different sections of the State, entitles it at least to high respect and calm consideration. The subject is important as affecting the most fundamental interest of State government, the organization of the Legislature-the sole law-making power of the people, through and by their consent. On its constitution and virtue depend chiefly the hopes of the people for protection of life, liberty and property. Guided by no other consideration than the attainment of the best mode of subserving these ends, I, after the most impartial investigation of the subject have determined to give the plan-if no better one of a similar character shall be submitted - my support. Aside from local interests and selfish schemes, which true patriotism and enlightened statesmanship should disregard, when they conflict with the interests of the whole people, I believe that the organization of the State into large senate and assembly districts, will better attain the ends in view. If the plan proposed were an experiment, we might enter upon it with some hesitation. We might, however, be the more willing to make the trial, since under our present system, whether for real or imaginary causes I will not now say, our people have year by year been losing confidence in the wisdom and purity of our legislators, until they do not hesitate to say that they are composed in great part of men who have far less regard for the public, than private interests. And hence some change that might mitigate or wholly remove the evils complained of, would be hailed by the people as a harbinger of legislative reform. But fortunately the plan proposed by the committee is is neither a theoretical vagary, or an untried experiment. The system of large senate and assembly districts, and aggregated constituencies is not new, but the oldest and most approved in the history of the State. It was adopted by the Convention of 1777, which laid broad and deep the foundations of our State government, and whose wisdom, as evinced in its framework, has been imparted to and canonized in the hearts of the people. We still retain the form which they gave us. They divided the State into four senate districts, with six Senators from each, to hold their offices for four years, and to be so classified that one should retire and one be elected every year. And thus they remained until 1801, when the second State Convention was held, and the number of Senators increased to I 764 t]irty-two, and members, of Assembly from seven- maintained without acknowledged fraud or mateto, one hundred. During this long period, rial loss to the State. Within this decade the shrill when those political jealousies which gave rise to whistle of the locomotive first broke the stillness the revolution, were in their freshest activity, of our forests, the magnetic telegraph spoke its when the people for the first time began to lightning voice, and our population increased over participate in self government, and were most 1,200,000. It may truly be said to have been liable to make excessive demands, respecting the Augustine age, so to speak, of the immediate representation, this system of cen- State, and the Republic. If during this time any tralized political representation, as its present evils crept into our State government, it will, I enemies call it, worked well and satisfactorily. apprehend, put the advocates of single districts to During this eventful, and most interesting period their wits, to show that it was owing to large senof our history no sickening clamor about legisla- ate and assembly districts.. Thus for seventy tive corruption deafened the ear, nor were their years, this system of legislative organization morning and evening's pasttime employed in was found doing its work of progress and develreading revelations of official corruptions, and opment. What sections of the State were negfrauds upon the people's treasury; where dishon- leeted, what local interests suffered, and where esty was found,it was the exception, and not the was the citizen who did not feel that he was duly rule. When. again in 1821, a Convention assem- represented in the government? It bore the bled for the first time in this capitol for the pur- wisdom of the fathers, attested by the accumrupose of revising or amending the organic law, lated experience of the people for nearly three and the pure and eminent men who composed it quarters of a century. But in the Convention of were like ourselves anxiously looking for reforms 1846 the word change first rang out in to meet the changed condition of the people, and this chamber. No middle ground was their increasing diversity of wants and interests- taken, the work of the fathers was repudiaboth political and material-they were found will- ted by the new authors of government. ingto combine inthe new form of government, such The wisdom of the Jays, the Kents, the elements of the old as experience had approved, Clintons, the Livingstons, the Spencers and Van with such new ones as their wisdom suggested. Vechtens had departed. New men and newer theWe find them eliminating from the old Con- ories broke upon the scene. Old lineswerebroken stitution and transferring to the new one, among up, counties were divided and subdivided, politiother forms and principles, that same cherished cal associations destroyed and local unities oblitsystem of large senate and assembly dis- erated to meet the demands of the reformers of triots, which had met the sanction of the two 1846. They organized thirty-two senate, and preceding Conventions and the approval of the one hundred and twenty-eight assembly districtspeople for the preceding forty-four years. No Senators to hold office for two years, and objection was yet heard that the people were members of Assembly one. Thus we find not properly represented from being removed that more exalted and dignified branch too far from their representatives. No eloquent of the Legislature, intended for more 'appeals broke on the ear of the delegates in that deliberative action, and as a check upon the Convention that if these large districts were not unwise and precipitate action of the lower broken up andthe represented and representative house, has, by its affinity with the Assembly brought nearer together, that unless local interests in constitiuency and tenure, lost that charachad local representatives in both branches of the ter, and for the mere ends of legislation might egslature it would become corrupt, the fountains with safety, be either abolished or merged in of justice fail, and the people's liberties depart the Assembly. The only check left to. the peoforever, Sir, such appeals and argumentation ple, upon unwise and unwholesome legislation, is were left for a later period. in our history. found in the purity and firmness of the executive Once more they entered upon, the same system of veto-a power rarely exercised by the early govd large senate and assembly districts; twenty- ernors. We sit to-day in the council chamber of three new counties, having been added to the the people of this great commonwealth toview State since 1801, with a large increase of pop- under the light of history these two systems-the ulation, the number of senate districts was one tested by the experience of seventy and increased from four to eight, retaining the same the other of twenty years. Sir, I do not hesitate number of Senators, with an increase of Assembly to declare from the lights before me, that the districts and members to 128. From that practical working of the earlier system, came nearer time down to 1846, a period of twenty the true ideal of government, by giving to the fie years, that period in which the slumbering people greater security against imposition, and energies of the State woke up, when it took its fraud, while it met all the reasonable demands, greatest stride in material progress, and political and just requirements of the people. Had it not develo.ement, in which the immortal Clinton, been for the separation of judicial functions from rising to the grandeur of the necessity, con- the legislative, found blended in the same officer ciwved andmatured the nation's proudest work by under the former system, I doubt if the framers which inter-oceanic communication was opened of the Constitution of 1846 would have given us with, the boundless agricultural and mineral the present system of small districts. As a diswelth of the great north-west, which has ever tinctive measure it was not demanded since been pouring in upon us with boundless by the people. If it was adopted then, for munifcepncp and diffusing its blessings over the the reasons urged by honorable g.entle — whol cnti, t; and during which all the canals man on this floor, for its retention, now, then of the tte were legislated into existence and I submit that they were guilty of the gravest 765 inconsistencies by giving us a judicial system organized upon the same basis of representative consolidation and political integration. My honorable friend from Chenango [Mr. Prindle], with an air of confidence, asked, "Who is demanding the change as proposed." My answer is, the same constituency that is demanding many other changes which we propose to make in the primary law. Those provisions for the Constitution which we have been memorialized to make have been rejected. Sir, the further the Senator is removed from the control of cliques and sectional influences the freer and purer will his duties be discharged. If the district is large, men will be the more likely to be chosen from their known virtues, business capacities and talents. If such qualities do not win success, none others should. If men of such character in one section of a district do not find rivals of equal merit in another, or if they do, the district and State cannot in either event fail in having a worthy and safe representative. This, sir, in my judgment is true patriotism and sound statesmanship. Had I any ambition for future senatorial honors, I am fully sensible, that the plan I support, if adopted, would blast all such hopes. Sir, I came not here to dig pit-falls for enemies or to engage in the no less unworthy business of building gilded pathways for myself or friends to places of honor and trust. I am under no instructions, except those of conscience and duty, and those I mean to fulfill. Have the opponents of the system proposed, shown any evils that have arisen or will necessarily arise under it, either of inconvenience in its operations or danger to the public weal? There has much been said in this regard respecting the wants of the people, a very popular, though ofttimes groundless theory. On this point I have only to say that I have the honor of representing in part a constituency which, for intelligence, virtue, public spirit and enterprise, has no superior in this State; and not one voice, except that of my honorable colleague from Orange [Mr. Fullerton], has been raised nor one line written against the report of the committee, while the Daily Journal of the city of Newburgh indorses it. The people oT my district know that they are the constituencies of both branches of the Legislature. They care not how radical the lower house may be so long as they have an experienced and conservative Senate, with a continuing existence to supervise their proceedings, and which experience has Shown we do not have under the present arrangement. The people are honest, and they demand honesty in their public servants. If the legislative department is pure it will be the purifier f all in subordination to it. If under the present system we have some pure and capable representatives) as it is conceded we do have, under the proposed plan we could net have less, with all the chances in favor of more. By eulargiag the serate and assembly districts, extending the teaure of offie and increasing tbX ceeaetlon as proposed by the oammittee, yoe will improve the morale of the Leislatuye,, Irstore confidene: betweed people and representative, and promote the general good. The people sir, are looking with hope to the action of this Convention on this report, and on that action they believe depends the future character of the legislation of this great State, the perpetuating of good government and the welfare of the whole people. Sir, I at present see no other practical way of their attainment than that proposed by the committee, and I shall, therefore, if alone among my honorable colleagues, give it an honest support, regardless of all local or political expediency, and rely upon a generous future for my vindication. Mr. KRUM-In rising to discuss the question which is more immediately before this committee, I deem it unnecessary to offer any apology to the honorable gentlemen who constituted the committee that made this report. I do not believe, sir, that it becomes necessary to put in a defense for them, to put in a plea for honesty on their account, simply because we may differ from their action. I, some time since, introduced a resolution looking to the representation of minorities with reference to the Assembly. I believe yet in the doctrine of the representation of minorities in localities, and when that question is properly before this committee, I may have some suggestions I desire to offer upon that question. But the question of single districts or large districts, the question immediately before this committee, is what I desire to speak about now. When I look back in the history of our country-the history of the several Constitutions of the State of New York, that have gone before us, I draw conclusions different from the gentleman who has last addressed this committee [Mr. Ludington]. I look back to the Constitution of 1777, and find that then there were four senate districts-large districts-electing twenty-four Senators. I find that the Constitution of 1777 provided for that method of electing Senators, and that it continued until 1821. I find that in 1821 the Convention that then assembled also continued the large district system increasing the Senators to thirty-two. For the period of seventy years nearly, this State had had the experience of large senate districts sending their Senators to the Legislature. In 1846 a Consitutional Convention again assembled, and that Constitutional Convention took a different action upon this question from the Conventions that had preceded it, and the natural inquiry is, why? The large district system,existed for seventy years. Why then did a Convention of the people in 1846 remodel and change it to what it is now? Let us look back for a moment into the history of the Constitution of 1846, and see if we can ascertain the reason. The gentleman from Saratoga [Mr. Pond] has given you a few of the reasons then stated. Others are to be found in other speeehes of the men who composed that Convertion. The Hon. Mr. Rhoades alluded to the inanimons call that had come up from the people for an amendment of the Corstitution in thie particular of single districte. Hon. Mr. Stet said: "The people demand the fornation ef single districts." Hen. Wmn. B. WrigMh sd: "The popular will has been Aiequtieea epressed in fravr of sigle. d otriert= ' 766 Hon. R. Campbell, Jr., said: "If any one fact was Senator. Confine it to public men and prominent in the discussions of the people which how soon would the Senate run out? Conpreceded this Convention it wash the complaint of fine it to public men and how long before there misrepresentation under the present system of would not be a publie man occupying such a posielecting Senators, and whoever would take tion? If it is to be confined to public men then, the trouble of looking into the proceedings of when all the public men die, you can have no Senconventions nominating candidates for a seat in ator. Place your constituency in a position where this House would find that in nearly all of such they may be brought before the public, where the conventions a resolution was passed in favor of men who know them may send their best men. single districts." The Hon. Mr. Patterson said Make public men of those whom the people do that: "When he came to this Convention he had not know now. That is the way to elevate the supposed if there was a single question which standard and position of the Senate, and not by had been fully decided upon by the people of putting men there who have a little public notoriety, this State, it was that of single districts for Sen- by reason of having held some public position. ators. He had never seen any other view ad- Mr. Chairman, there is another reason why I vocated in any newspaper throughout the State, am in favor of small districts. The small neither had he heard any man oppose the plan." district system las the tendency of drawing Looking through the debates of the Constitu- out the votes at the elections, not the repubtional Convention of 1846, you will scarely find a lican vote, not the democratic vote, but the man who was bold enough to deny this represen- vote of the entire State. When your candidates tation by single district. The unanimous call of are in nomination, when your tickets are in the the people had gone forth; the unanimous field, what draws out the vote? Why, sir, it is expression went out to the Convention of 1846; your local candidates. It is they who induce men and with the experience of three-fourths of a to come to the polls and deposit their ballot, century, they yielded to the demand of the people, unless, perhaps, in some great national contest, and the Constitution was adopted as it now when you vote for President or rather for electors is. Is it then wise for us now, in this for President, or in a State contest, when the Convention assembled, to change that plan? ticket is headed by the Governor. But aside Change did I say? No, a return simply to the from the Governor, State officers are generally plan that the people so unanimonsly rejected, and unknown to the people of the State, and I to whose wishes the Convention of 1846 so wisely deem it best, sir, that every man who is entitled yielded. I find, sir, in the history of the past and to the elective franchise, should, in his own in the present, what is the wish of the people, sound and proper judgment, go to the and that wish induces me to cast my vote polls and exercise that right. Now, Mr. Chairman, on the question in such a manner as not to various other arguments have been made by those reverse the well known will of the people upon this who take the other side of this question. They subject. Mr. Chairman, we are sent here to repre- are made more particularly in reference to the sent the people, not to make such a Constitution four-years' plan. They say give us a Senate of *as we may desire, unless our desires really be in four years, and then we will have the benefit of exaccordance with the wishes of the people who perience. What experience, sir? Is it necessary sent us. We are mere agents and mere represen- that there should be experience in legislation in tatives, and they are our superiors, and to their order to make an honest and upright and good wisdom, when we find it so unequivocally and legislator? I am not going to assert that explicitly expressed, it is our duty as their agents there is not something in experience; but I do in submission to bow. Another reason, sir, why state this, that the question of experience like I am opposed to the large district system, is this: every other question, has its two sides. Expethat you bring the question of representation rience in the line of honesty and in the forward home to the people; you permit the people, know- march of integrity is an experience which is well ing their man, to cast their votes for the man for all of us to have; but, sir, there is a kind of whom they know. They are not voting for experience, not in the legislative hall only, but strangers; they are not voting for a man who has everywhere, that leads to something besides acquired a little public notoriety and a little public that. There is an experience that tends reputation, simply because he fills some public to corruption; there is an experience that office. And I am surprised to see learned and in- points out the way to vice; that makes the telligent men upon this floor take the position in tracks therein and then that tells how to favor of large districts, for the reason that none cover up those tracks. Experience, then, may but public men should occupy the position of or may not be a necssary requisite to a good legSenator of the State of New York-none but men islator. Another idea advanced is that large who have been before the people. Will any gen- districts will have a tendency to do away with the tleman upon this floor arise in his seat and boldly formation of "rings" and cliques which control assert that in many a county and town, in nominations. They say that in the small district many a little village and hamlet, in fnany a system, nominating caucuses get together and valley and upon many a hill side, there lives nominate men and make a mere clique or ring not a man who has never been before the peo- in the nomination of Senators. I hardly know ple, but who, by reason of his education and what gentlemen mean by "cliques " or "rings." by reason of his natural ability, and by reason of If they mean cliques and rings of men in every his honesty of heart, and integrity of purpose, is county, in every town, in every senate district, who fitted to represent the State of New York in the have sufficient regard for the politics of the day to high, responsible and respectable position of honestly and earnestly strive to promote theprin 767 ciples they indorse. ana the party carrying out knowledge has removed the barrier between great such principles, then it is a clique or ring that one and small, and created an equality which levels may well feel proud to be in. But if they mean the intellectual powers, and removes that disthat kind of cliques or rings formed by designing parity among men which characterized the men for selfish purposes, to control nominations incumbents of official stations at an earlier period or corrupt conventions or men, then I ask if the in our nation's history? I am not prepared to larger the circle the larger is not the clique and admit that the Senate of this State has been the ring, and the more powerful its influence. In inferior in intellect since 1846, to the Senate conclusion I would caution the Convention against between 1846 and 1821; and I am not prepared such action as is known to be opposed to the to admit that our Senate to-day is not, in point of decided and expressed desire of the people. intellect and integrity, on an equality with any Mr. GRAVES-Mr. Chairman, I have listened Senate which has honored this State at a period with undivided attention to the debate upon this in its history when it was said, we had giant minds. report forthree reasons: first, to learn from the The advance and change in our government committee why they offered to this Convention a created a desire to increase in wealth by such change in a system which had so effectually been devices and schemes as seem well calculated carried out with the approval of the people; sec- to corrupt the good, and poison the element end, to satisfy my own mind that the arguments in which republican institutions have so long which were offered by the committee and the ad- prospered. Amid this general onslaught upon vocates of the measure were such as would allow virtue, it is not surprising that some should this innovation upon an established and well un- have fallen, and perhaps we ought to rejoice derstood principle; third, that the arguments were that so few have fallen. Again, sir, how such as would satisfy the people to whom this will this change of district add any protection proposed change was a surprise-that it was in against these devices? You have not, by changtruth a reform as well as a change. This com- ing the district, changed the men nor added to mittee have no doubt given the subject a candid their capacity or integrity. They are the same in examination, and have come to this conclusion character and ability and in number, and only from such observations as they have been able to taken out of the small districts and put into large make since they have had the matter ones-removed from the great body of those who in charge. But it must be apparent to should judge of their qualifications and fitness all that the subject of this report, unlike for these positions. Why ask to make this change? many others, is as familiar to all the mem- Have the people demanded it? The press has bers of this Convention as it is to the committee; been silent, neither political party has breathed for it rests upon judgment and not from any facts an intimation that has called for this report. Will which the committee have been gleaning from this Convention assume to override the will of hidden and concealed intelligence. The good the people who have, by their silence, spoken their sense of this committee need not be doubted; approval of this system as it now stands? Is it but its members are only the twenty-second the object of this Convention to spend its time and part of the aggregate judgment of this Con- deliberations upon subjects which have grown up in vention and cannot justly claim any advantage commttee rooms rather than among the sovereigns over the opinion of other members of the of this land who will be prepared to rebuke our Convention. In a body as large as this, cor- fruitful imagination with a veto power before that posed of delegates from different parts of the political tribunal from which we cannot appeal? State, unacquainted with each other's opinions, The wishes of the people have been expressed it is not surprising that they should entertain a through the public prints, and we see their dediversity of opinion upon subjects so vital to pub- sires written out; and we need not misjudge how lie interest, and many times and on many occa- and upon what the people desire us to act. The sions differ with the committees of their own public judgment has expressed its opinion upon selection. Indeed we have come here to differ, the elective franchise, and they knew that this compare and agree. It is said that the object of Convention would differ upon that subject; but this contemplated change is to secure men of more they confided in the wisdom and integrity of their talent and greater moral worth in the Senate; servants who compose this body, that they would and to enable the people to act more wisely in differ only as that difference would lead to caretheir selection. It is also said that Senators are ful examination and a nearer approximation to incompetent and unworthy of their trust under what the interests of the State demanded. They the present system. I am not prepared to have long heard and known that the Erie canal admit that the people send unworthy men. has been the shibboleth before whom great and The people select those who are regarded good men have fallen, and around which clustered worthy and well qualified for these positions the principal and the servant, the open and conand because they are corrupted when they come cealed partner, the official and his clerks, all in contact with wicked and designing men in this plucking the fruit which seemed to be so palata. atmosphere, and in their new relation of life, does ble to many who have been surfeited by its quanit follow that there is any want of sagacity or tity and richness, and in a voice which we must ability in the people to judge wisely and choose heed they have demanded of us that this great discreetly, or that the system through or under State power should not be prostituted to the which they are chosen is defective? But it is venal purposes of making bankrupt the very said that under this well established system we authors of its existence. And this State capifail to get men of the highest capacity. Is it not tal, with its capacity for great State revenue easy sit, to see that the general diffusion of should, by the united wisdom of this Convention, 768 be placed where the honored father of our worthy associate in this Convention [Mr. Clinton] intended it should be, in the hands of an efficient and honest power, through whose fidelity the State should be honored and her treasury enriched. The country demands that this Convention should ignore all questions having their origin in marked effort, and look with careful thought and cautious deliberation to the natural weight that bears its sinking burden upon the industrial interests and moneyed investments of our people, and, so far as within the power of this Convention, guard with a strong hand the interest of our people from that national crisis and monled Shylock, whose unwelcome power seems slowly approaching. They ask relief from the draining taxation that we have been compelled to submit to, in order to maintain our honor and our national existence. These, with them, have no party politics, no political wire-pullings, but come to the pockets unfilled, though the hands are at work and the capital is yielding its ordinary revenue. This demands the exercise of the condensed judgment of this Convention, and no time should be lost by us in making the examination. This financial question is the people's question, and they watch this Convention as though the responsibility of our State depended upon its labors. The mal and delayed administration of the law has awakened the interest of the litigant as well as the tax payer, and forced upon this body the absolute necessity of re-organizing the courts that justice may be more readily obtained and more easily recognized. This is a work, like the preceding, requiring more time and talent than can wisely be exercised in the Weeks allotted to this Convention, And that class who are to be more immediately affected by it, as well as the community in general, however remotely, will have good cause to complain if our best efforts are not; put forth to reform this manifest judicial evil, and no time can wisely be diverted from its due consideration. Our cities are to-day groaning under the severities of partial and forced legislation, Which makes our local municipal regulations almost an unlimited monarchy; and the evils are so prominent that the millionaire as well as the day laborer is claiming at the hands of this Convention an organic law which shall guard capitaly protect labor, suppress crime, and shield innocence and virtue. This is hardly secondary to any reform demanded from this Convention, and anything short of a full consideration of this question will do unmeasured injury to this mighty class who iste, in deep earnestness, asked that they shall be gternecd by uniform laws, and that legislation fhall be forbidden which has crippled the enterprise and fed the unweaned appetites of that class who lhave always made public good subservient to pttrde iiterest. There are many other and impWttC craims upom the judgment, ability, integitr ant indutry 'of this Cbonenltion which the peoPthate partialt disicussed, ard which they have a et ths e t mo re fully exEain:hn and act upon. I 9ftbai s(t, Whether we' wotrd not mtore' fly 'iAt p ~A fplectatfnns ald t onr own' contictkns. Y d if *W cofta ourdefTbertibns to refonms e fthtie t to attempt changes where no apparent evil exists, and by which arouse a feeling of dissatisfaction, which is already being awakened in the rural districts, which I fear will add to the uncertainty of recognizing the Work of this Convention as worthy of their approval. Cicero said, at an early period of the world's his tory, that it was easier to pull down than to build up-to destroy than to create. Our small or single district system has met our wants and secured to all their rights, and from which no evil has arisen. I most earnestly protest in behalf of the twenty senatorial districts that the change should not be made as contemplated by this report. Mr. ANDREWS-I have listened with great attention to the different views of gentlemen as to the propriety of adopting the one system or the other in respect to senate districts. And I agree fully with the gentleman from New York [&fr. Evarts] and other gentlemen who have stated that there can scarcely be a more important question for the consideration of this Convention than that relating to the organization of the Legislature of the State. In this body is deposited.the Whole legislative power of the people, restrained, it is true, in some respects by the organic law, but these restrictions are from necessity general in their character, while there is left to the Legislature the exercise of a mass of indefinite and discretionary powers affecting public and private inte rests. And, sir, it is for this reason that considerations bearing upon the organization of this body are and must be extremely important. The Legislature is the strong arm of the government. The Legislature may remove the Executive; and it may drive from his seat the judge who has degraded or disgraced his high office. The interests of the people are involved in the action of legislative bodies, and from the result of that action there can be no appeal. And, sir, it seems to me that the whole question as to large or single senate districts, depends upon the consideration whether by the one system or the other better representatives can be secured and thereby better and safer legislation. Sir, I differ from the gentlemen who have spoken upon this question in favor of the single senate district system in the statement that the demand for single districts was made by the people of the State, and that it was in obedience to public sentiment that the Convention of 1846 adopted the innovation Which was then made upon the pre-existing systemn. Why, sir, as I understand it, the Convention of 1846 in their action proceeded upon the theory that, as it was an admitted axiom in American politics that the people Were the Source of political power, the true idea of government, founded upon that axiom, required that it should be arranged in all its departments so as t6 give to the people the most direct participation in its dmiinistration. It was, sir, the reaction in that Convention against the principle of centtraliatioi Which had pervaded the earlier (onstitutiohs 6f thy State. I'e dominant idea of the Convention of 1846 Was decentralization; and as the result of that idea the Executive was stripped of many powrers Gwich had formerly been vested in that officer. Jfudiial and administrative officers Were mtiade eleclfie by the people, and the direct intervention 6f the poopie in public affairs was secured by ffqu61etfy 769 recurring elections, and, as I believe and under- upon this floor, that it is desirable to bring the stand it, this plan of single assembly [and senate Senator as near as possible to the constituency districts which was then adopted, was a part of whom he represents, in the sense in which this that general system as to the distribution of statement is made; In my judgment that is one of power which-under the idea I have adverted to the dangers to be avoided, and I believe that our -pervaded the action of that Convention. It was legislation has mainly suffered from the tendency to claimed that the nearer you could bring the rep- local and special legislation, induced by the very resentative to the people, the more direct and fact of substantial identity of local interest and immediate the relation between the representative feeling in both branches of the Legislature, between and the constituency, the smaller the constit- the several representatives and the constituency uency, and the more limited the district from whom they represent. It is, sir, because Senators which a Senator was to be chosen, the higher coming from a limited district, with a limited would be the sense of responsibilitysin the constituency, owing as they do their nomination representative, and the more certain that and designation to a few prominent men in each there would be honest and intelligent legisla- locality-that when here they are under a kind of tion. And, Mr. Chairman, I desire to ask moral coercion to legislate in respect to local and this Convention whether the practical working of individual interests, for the purpose of pleasing the the single district system during the last twenty constituency whom they represent, in disregard years has justified the claims upon which the ex- of the more important interests of the State. periment was urged? Has the character of the Special legislation to accommodate local interests, legislative bodies of the State been elevated above is one of the great faults in legislative bodies, and the character of the Legislature under the pre- the dependence of a Senator upon a limited constitVious Constitution? Has honest and intelligent uency is the great stimulus to such legislation. legislation been secured? And, sir, the best Sir, I do not fear another thing; I do not fear, illustration of this experiment is to be found in sir, that by the substitution of the large district the Assembly where the districts are the smallest system there will occur a concentration of the practicable, and where from almost every neigh- political power of the State in the hands of a borhood there is a representative in the popular few men at the capital-a spectre which disturbs branch of the Legislature. I think, sir, I hazard the minds of some gentlemen. For myself, I neither nothing in saying to this Convention that that advocate nor am I in favor of so arranging the body in this State has forfeited public confidence government of the State as to enable a few men and respect. If public rumor is to be credited, to be the governing power of the State. I do not corruption has stalked unabashed and almost undis- share, sir, in the apprehensions of many gentleguised through our legislative halls. The memory men upon this floor, that under the large district of the past Legislatures in this State is system there will be a regency in this State, odious with the people. The most direct respon- wielding the power of the government. I was not sibility to the people has not prevented this a supporter, nor am I an advocate, of the system corruption in our public bodies, nor has which, for years in this State, under the name of the sense of honor or decency restrained them in the Albany regency, controlled its political power. respect to matters of legislation. It is true, sir, The Albany regency, sir, was an absolute despotthat owing to the limited number of the Senate, ism, and local politicians, in various portions of owing to the higher dignity of the position, the State, were restive under its dominant and all owing to the larger districts, and constituencies pervading power. But, sir, when I come to which Senators have represented, the Senate has look at the history of the period when not shared entirely in this condemnation. There it controlled the party organization in the have been, to my knowledge and within my State, I cannot fail to see that in the foreacquaintance, many able and upright men re- ground in that power in the State stood men of turned as members of the Senate during the last high capacity and ability; men in whom great twenty years; but I think that public confidence public and private virtues were recognized, and has been greatly weakened in respect also to this that, although they ruled as with a rod of iron the branch of our Legislature. Now, sir, I am political organization of the State, nevertheless they opposed to the single senate district system on had that high sense of honor, and that controlling the ground that that system requires either the sense of public duty which led them sedulously to annual or biennial election of the whole body of guard the interests of the people, and to exact as a the Senate, or such an arrangement of details that condition of promotion in the public service, fidelity only the voice of a portion of the electors of the to public interests. For my part, if we are to be State can be heard at each election in the choice ruled by politicians, I prefer such a rule; I prefer of Senators. I believe it is a solid objection to the domination of such men to that of the small the single senate district, that with it either the politicians in the small districts of this State, who o&e or the other of these views must be adopted. by intrigue, acquiring control of the political maI am also opposed, Mr. Chairman, to the single chinery through that, are able to designate and district system, because I believe that there determine the persons who are to represent the Should be a sharp and decided contrast between people in the Legislature. I had rather be under the organization of the two branches of the Legis- the rule of politicians of a larger mold, than of lature; that in no other way can the principle that swarm of vampires who now, year by Upon which legislative bodies in free countries year, gather around the Legislature from each petty are divided into two branches have fairly its rep- district of the State to fatten upon the public trearesentatiou and appropriate application. I do sury, and to demand special legislation as the reward not agree with the gentlemen who have Spoken of special services. I am in favor ot the larger 97 770 listrict system, because I believe that under it we shall get men of higher character to represent us in the upper house of the Legislature. I, sir, would make that a position which should be sought and desired by men who had a nobler and proper ambition to serve the State for the interest of the State. I would, so far as I am able, shut out from that house men who have merely local influence and local reputation, and would excite that emulation which would be felt in the various portions of a large district to send the best and strongest representation which they were able to the upper house. These are the views I entertain upon this subject. I would not lift Senators above, or make them independent of, the people of the State, but I would lift them above that popular clamor which compels them at times to consult the feelings of the local constituency at the expense of public interests. I would constitute the Senate, so that Senators should in truth and in fact be Senators of the State. Mr. HARRIS - Mr. Chairman, I have listened to this discussion with some surprise and a little regret; because I have discovered there is a large number of delegates who still retain a favorable regard for tie single district system, and surprise and regret from the apprehension that the vote of the Convention may indorse that system. I had supposed that the popular sentiment was almost unanimously in favor of large districts. I have not heard a person, I believe, within the last five years, speak in favor of retaining the single district system. Until this discussion commenced I had supposed it almost a matter of course that we were to change the mode of electing Senators. A good deal has been said to-day in reference to the action of the Convention of 1846. In that Convention, sir, I voted in favor of a single district system. Not only that, but, in my humble way, I advocated it. But I regard it as a failure, and I do not feel that we are making no progress when we return to a good principle that we have left. I am willing to go back to the system that obtained before 1846. I regard the single district system as having been adopted then rather upon political considerations than upon the ground of enlarged statesmanship. Sir, you are awareall the members of this Convention are aware-of the peculiar circumstances, politically, under which that Convention was assembled. It was controlled by the radical portion of the democratic party who had become restive under the domination of what was commonly called the "Albany regency." They were determined to throw off the yoke-to get rid of the power of that regency. That object and purpose controlled the action of the Convention. The watchword and key-note was: "Remove power from the center, send it to the extremities; strip the Governor and the Senate of all power; let the people elect all-officers." This was the purpose of that Convention; and this explains the action of that body in adopting this single district system. In my humble judgment, from the best observation I have given to the workings of that system, it was a great mistake; and I believe we would do well to return to the large district system. And for this reason-that Senators are to be charged with the destinies and the interests of the State, more, perhaps, than almost any other officers. We need men of enlarged views, enlarged experience, and we are not so likely to get them under the single district system as the large. In my judgment the great excellence of the system reported by this committee is the fact that while Senators hold their term of office for the period of four years; at the same time the electors throw into the body of the Senate new Senators every year. I am, therefore, in favor of the report of the committee. If we do nothing here to improve the character of the Legislature, we shall fail to satisfy the expectations of our constituents. If there is any portion of the government that needs reform, I think all will agree that it is the Legislature. Yet it is proposed now to continue the senatorial system as it has existed for the last twenty years- to make no change. I think it would be a very great mistake if we should not do something for the purpose of satisfying the expectations of the people in reference to the mode of electing Senators; and I can conceive of no mode better than that reported by the committee. We all know that there is great complaint of the legislation of the State. We have been told that some 2,000 pages of statute laws were enacted by the last Legislature in one hundred days. I regard it as one of the great evils of our day. There never was a people so severely legislated as the American people. There never was a people that could endure so much legislation as ours are obliged to endure. It requires that we should adopt the wisest measures we can for the purpose of improving the character of our legislation, and it seems to me going back to the old system of electing Senators is really making progress in the right direction. Mr. FOLGER-I was sorry that the hammer fell on the speqch of the honorable gentleman from New York [Mr. Evarts] just as he had reached what, to my mind, was about to be the most interesting part of it, that where he had begun to develop his theory for securing the independence of the Senate of this State. In my view, in this discussion, that part of the idea which should govern us has been too much neglected. The single district plan has been advocated upon the ground of bringing the Senator home to the people, and making him feel almost irresistibly the power of his constituency upon him. I believe that the true idea is not complete unless it is also provided that there shall be independence of the Senate or in its action. That is what should also be held up to this Convention. What is the theory upon which we have a Senate? What is the theory of all free government in making two branches of a Legisture? What is the theory which pervades every measure proposed by any gentleman upon any side of this subject? It is that the Senate should be a different body from the Assembly in its constituents, its mode of office, and the tenure of office. Why should they be different? If the all-pervading idea is to be that the Senator shculd feel the force of his constituency almost always pressing upon him, and feel that he is circumscribed by it, and must meet his accountability at 771 very short periods, and to a limited constituency, road bill, the Whitehall and Plattsburgh railroad why should there be any different tenure of office bill, the Chenango extension bill, the bill for or any other difference in the constitution of the the exemption from taxation of railroad bonds Senate? Why should not a Senate be elected and others of that class, hundreds of them by small districts no more numerous than the which my recollection fails now to call.to mind. Assembly, and with as short a period of service? Now, this little matter of mine up in the twentyBut it is admitted that there must be a difference. sixth senate district can go if they can go, and it But why? We must base it on some ground. It cannot go if they cannot go. We must combine is this, that there should be one body engaged in votes. Now, see the result. Without money and the legislation of this State which should feel inde- without price, except the oppressive and compendent in its conduct. Gentlemen acknowledge pelling idea that I cannot go home to my constituthat theory. They propose to set it up and es- ents without that little measure is carried, I am tablish it. Will they stop short of putting it induced to vote for these other things in reward on a proper pedestal? After they have bowed for the favor which comes from the supporters of down and worshipped it, and acknowledged it as them to my measure. I could specify instance the true theory, will they, in their practical upon instance where I have seen this effect. action, destroy the idol at once? How are But suppose I have, as gentlemen have, colleagues you going to reach and secure this independence? in this Convention, three other Senators with me You must prolong their term of office; you must in my senate district, I divide the responsibility elect them by a different manner, and scatter with them. I go home and say I consulted and their constituency over a larger district. I wish acted with Mr. So and So and Mr. So and modestly to allude to the experience I have So, who are also your representatives, and we found derived elsewhere than here upon this very that although the measure was a fair one and subject. It was principally for that I rose, that ought to be passed and that we had presented it I might add to sufficient reasoning of others my as well as we could, still we had not strength testimony as to the practical workings of the enough to do it, that the pressure from greater present system. In the beginning of the session and more general considerations was too powerful. of every Legislature we hear whispered abroad Other gentlemen did not see it in the same light through these halls that certain schemes are to be we did, and they were the majority. Thus I presented here. Well, men say of this or that divide the responsibility. I say that I am not project, or that scheme cannot succeed; it is too alone to blame. But suppose I am the sole reprepreposterous; it disgusts the common sense of sentative, my constituents say to me on my return every one here that such a draft as that should home, the Senator from such a district got such a be made on the treasury, or such an infringement railroad bill or other bill carried, why could not upon the rights of the people. Men say "that you carry one bill appropiiting $25,000 for cannot succeed." But along about the month of the repair of the Crooked Lake canal or whatFebruary it begins to be seen that an influence ever it may be. The fear of reproach is has been abroad on subtile or atmospheric force, almost irresistible to the representative and it is found that in counting votes there are while human nature is constituted as it is more for it than you a month before would have now, with its ambitions, and its desire supposed possible. About the month of March for approval and commendation. Now, here it has gone further, and it is pretty certain it will is just where an improvement is desired, have a majority. Well, now, why? I do not admit or at least needed. We want to enlarge that any man has been bought for that scheme, the senate districts for the reason that we want to but I do declare that the interests of himself and increase the feeling of independence on the part his constituents have made him engage in log- of the Senator; for the reason that we want the rolling to carry some pet measure by giving his Senator not to feel himself at the mercy or caprice influence and his vote to that scheme. How is of any particular small section of country; to that? I come from a single senate district, and increase the numberof representatives so that the come the sole representative of that district. responsibility shall be divided and the representaThat district las a local measure which it is incum- tive may go home and say, I did my duty as well bent upon me, or I think that it is, to advance and as others did theirs. We all did our cuty, but secure or go home disgraced and fail of a re-elec- failed of success. There is a great deal of talk tiou. Now, low am I to secure it. On its own about legislative corruption. It is not for me to merits and with only the support it can attract in affirm or deny it. It is not new. I wish I had and of itself-that measure cannot succeed. I here the debates of the Convention of 1821, and must combine then with the supporters of other I would show you running all through them, from measures. And there it grows. I use now the page to page, complaints and denunciations of first person of the pronoun that I may not reflect legislative corruption almost in the very verbiage upon others, though I disclaim having acted thus. that has been used in this Convention. "Legislative I look about me, and see on the files of the Senate corruption " was then the cry, as it is now the cry. this bill, and that bill, and that bill. I find who It may hale been just and well founded then. I are the introducers or supporters of them. I shall not admit or deny but that it is well founded associate myself with them, conspire with them now. There has been no remedy found for it if if you choose to use that word, because I do not it does exist, for one reason - because we have want to lose my constituents' project, and cannot been going in the wrong direction. Instead of carry it without extrinsic aid, and can only get increasing the independence of the representative, help by giving aid for aid. I find there is the we have been all the while increasing his depenCentral railroad fare bill, the Susquehanna rail, dence upon his constituency-a small circunm 772 Scribed constituency- making him feel that se represents a hamlet instead of a State. The gentleman from Albany [Mr. IHarris] has alluded to the ponderous volume of laws that is Shortly to come out. It will be a ponderous volume. But what is it? It is in the greater part legislation for localities, it is of laws passed for localities under this very pressure of which I speak. Mr. VAN CAMPEN - Without any desire to interrupt the gentleman [Mr. Folger] I would ask him if this local legislation will not be prevented by giving greater power to the boards of supervisors? Mr. OLGER - You cannot cut off legislation for localities. You cannot, beforehand, in a Const.itutiko to run for twenty years, define specific1lly what the board of supervisors shall do. Is there any gentleman here who will grant a board of supervisors an unrestricted power of legislation? By no means. You must specify beforehand the power of any such board as that. Qentlemen will not maintain that they shall have general powers of legislation. Such a proposition subverts all the theories of a well constructed Legislature,. which require two. bodies as a check, one on the other. Here is this volume alluded to by the gentleman from Albany [Mr. Harris], of two thousand laws. I will venture to say there are not fifty public laws in it. Mr. S. TO WNSEND- There are a thousand laws only; two thousand pages. Mr. FOLGER -There are not fifty of a general nature. It is this pressure upon the representatives, of small loal constituencies that produces this kfnd of legislation. The Committee on the Judiciary of the last Senate reported adversely to many of such bills, but by the earnestness of representatives the committee was sometimes overridden. Though many of these could have been disposed of elsewhere, they came here, showing that the evil is not remedied by giving powers of local legislation to boards of supervisors or other local bodies. The bill is sent to the local representative, and he is, held responsible for its passage, He desires to gratify his constituency, as I said before, on account of his reputation as an able, and tried, and expert legislator, a man who has influence with his fellow. That is the way volumes swell to 2,000 laws. Now, the State generally is not over-legislated; but it is the localities which pour into this great hopper of legislation at the capitol, the grist which is ground out here when it can as well be ground out elsewhere. I am, therefore, for large districts, and I must join in the surprise of the gentleman from Albany [Mr. Harris], at the disposition manifested to retain the single senate district system. I must say that when I came here in June,f any one had asked me what changes would hate taken place in this Constitution, I would have said there will be a return to the large Senate districts, for experience has demonstrated the imperfection of the single district system. I had not heard the contrary expressed until within the last month. And I must caution gentlemen that they are not fully informed of the popular will and sentiment on this subject for I do believe that there exists in this State a desire for a return to the large senate district system, which, lifting the Senator above the caprice or dissatisfaction of narrow limits shall leave the representative independent, and fix an extended term of office which gives time for the tide of public opinion to flux and reflux, before the representative is brought to his account for official action. Mr. EDDY - I am in favor of the amendment of the gentleman from Cortland [Mr. Ballard,] now under consideration before the committee, which provides for single senate districts. My reason is, that the large district system is not, in my opinion, as has been so ably discussed by my colleague [Mr. Graves], demanded by the people of whom we are the representatives. I have yet to hear from the first man outside of this Convention who is in favor of a change in the present system, or who feels any dissatisfaction connected with it. I think, Mr. Chairman, that this Convention is taking upon itself quite too much business, which is entirely uncalled for. There seems to be a disposition to enter in detail into the minutiae of legislation not anticipated by the people, and which does not come within the province of this Convention to consider. The first great and all-important measure demanded of this Convention by the people, and which mainly induced the electors of this State to call together this Constitutional Convention, was the re-organization of our present over-burdened and unj ust judicial system. Second, that the Empire State might be permitted to pronounce emphatically, as an example to other States, in favor of universal manhood suffrage. It is, of course, expected that this Convention will, by constitutional enactments, do all in its power to prevent future corruption by State officials, and also to prevent an undue and unwarrantable expenditure of the public money. Aside from this, sir, no radical changes are demanded or expected from this Convention. Let us remember the fact that the people have yet to render their verdict upon our work, and our duty is to conform as far as possible to their wishes, that our labor may receive their sanction. Mr. BICKFORD-I move that the committee do now rise, report progress, and ask leave to sit again. The question was put on the motion of Mr. Bickford, and was declared carried, on a division, by a vote of 64 ayes to 24 noes. Whereupon the committee arose, and the President resumed the chair in Convention. Mr. FULLER, from the Committee of the Whole, reported that the committee had had under consideration the report of the Committee on the Legislature, its Organization, etc., had made some progress therein, but not having gone through therewith, had instructed their chairman to report that fact to the Convention, and ask leave to sit again. The PRESIDENT announced the question to be on granting leave. Mr. GREELEYY —I trust we will not grant leave to sit again. At. this rate we will never get through. If we take the subject from the committee we will get on. Mr. WEED - What is the result, under the rules, if we refuse to grant leave? 773 The PRESIDENT-The result will be that the of the State so that its motion may not bb report will lose its place in the order of business. so irregular, rapid, or violent as to shakb Mr. WEED-Will it throw out the whole sub- to pieces the system of which it is & ject? part. They have the opportunity of bringing The PRESIDENT-It will be a virtual rejection great experience and very maturely developed of the article. qualities of statesmanship, and that reserve which The question was then put on the motion to is necessary to check the more rapid progress of grant leave to sit again, and it was declared carried. the more popular body. Passing from the British The PRESIDENT-The hour of two having Constitution to an experience which is entirely arrived, under the order of the Convention a recess our own, we have in the constitution of the legiswill be taken until half-past seven o'clock. lative department of the Federal government, the So the Convention took a recess. House of Representatives, elected from smallet districts and for shorter terms, and the Senate, EVENING SESSION. elected from the States, and for terms three times The Convention re-assembled at half-past seven as long as that of the House of Representatives, o'clock, when it resolved itself into the Committee and, without following very closely and uniformly of the Whole, on the report of the Committee on any system, we find in all our State constitutions the Legislature, its Organization, etc., Mr. FUL- the same general principle of two chambers, fully LER, of Monroe, in the Chair. embodied and imbedded as a part of our AmerThe CHAIRMAN announced the pending ques- ican political system. Now, sir, in 1777 we contion to be on the amendment offered by Mr. Ballard stituted our State governments upon the same printo the amendment offered by Mr. E. Brooks to ciple. We made larger districts for the smaller section 2 of the article as reported by the com- body. We made longer terms for the smaller mittee. body. We introduced, so far as was consistent Mr. VAN COTT-In the progress of this de- with the principle of our institutions, the conserbate, sir, to which I have been a very close lis- vative and permanent elements into the smaller tener, I have occasionally taken a note with the body of the Legislature. We adhered to that thought that I might occupy the time of the Con- system until 1821. We continued to adhere to vention to answer some of the views that have the principle and substance of the system until been presented in support of the single di-trict 1846. In 1846 an epidemic of constitutional change system in opposition to the larger. If it were in broke out in the country, and with it, and pecuorder, sir, I would very much like to take the liarly characterizing it, was the principle of the sense of the Convention upon a proposition to decentralization of power, which has disintegrated abolish the Senate. I would like to bring gentle- and almost resolved society into its original ele. men to a position where they would be obliged to ments, and brought on anarchy with corruption. consider the original principle on which the legis- Now, sir, why not adhere to the principle of the lative department of the government is divided system or else abolish it altogether? I am for into two chambers, for every reason which any preserving the substance of the system or else gentleman could give in support of such a division abolishing it. The form, the empty shell of the would be a refutation of the argument in favor of system is but a mere snare and not a help to us. the smaller, and an argument in support of the I remember, sir, an anecdote that is told of Sir larger divisions reported by the committee. Sir, Isaac Newton. That philosopher having a favorite where is the use of having two houses organized cat, in order to give it free access to his study, cut upon substantially the same basis, and working a large hole in his study door. By and by, a kitsubstantially through the same processes to reach ten was born to the cat, and then the philosopher the same results? If I were to propose to di- cut a smaller hole in his study door through vide the Assembly into two houses of equal num- which the kitten might pass. Sir, do we not do her, the absurdity of the proposition would strike the same thing in substance when we bring these the mind at once. If I were to propose to elect two houses together into a legislative department, the whole one hundred and sixty members consti- exercising the same functions under the same tuting the Legislature, and to cut off thirty-two influences? Have we not one hole too many? and to send them to a different chamber Do we not go entirely beyond the reason of the to deliberate, the absurdity of the propo- thing in constituting the second branch of tihe sition would strike the mind at once. Legislature, when we depart so widely from the We come back, sir, therefore to the plan of the principle on which we separate the Legislature two houses, not to make like, but to make unlike, into two chambers? Then you will observe th4 to produce the system of checks and balances, practice of the State in affirmance of the general and to preserve the balance of the system, not by principle which has some value here as our guide, the independence, but by the dissimilarity of the as indicating the general sentiment of the p6ople. two bodies. Now, sir, in the constitution of the We have departed from the principle in respect to smaller body we followed originally the system of this particular thing, while we have adhered the British Constitution. We had then, in the to it in general. You take the general smaller body, a hereditary branch of the Legisla. constitution of the Legislature. You take your ture, an aristocratic branch of the Legislature if supervisors; you elect them in small disiricts. you please, and the opportunities belonging to You take your members of Assembly, and you wealth, and to fixed position and to permanency, elect them in larger districts. You take your a larger knowledge and a larger comprehension of Senate; you elect it in still larger districts affairs, and, through these qualities, that species You take your Governor, a part of the legislative of conservatism which holds the machinery department under the Constitution, and you elect 774 him in a still larger district. As you diminish the number you increase the district. As you make more important the officer and his functions, you give him a larger constituency. Take the judicial department, and you follow out the same principle. Your county judges you elect in each county of the State. Your supreme court judges you elect in eight judicial districts. Your court of appeals judges you elect by a general ticket, with the whole State for the constituency of the court. As the court rises in importance, and you wish to give dignity to it, as the functions you intrust to it are larger or more important or more influential, you bring it upon this large constituency, and take the larger voice or the larger vote of the people in its creation. Now, sir, I ask you to apply the same principle which you apply so steadily elsewhere to the legislative department, to return to that sober reason and sound philosophy with which we commenced the organization of government in this State. A gentleman that I listened to with great interest the other day, the gentleman from Lewis [Mr. Brown], put off on this Convention this striking fallacy: He says, "If your thirty-two districts are too numerous, if eight are better than thirty-two, then four are better than eight, and one is better than four." The gentleman forgets that in propositions you have to observe measure and proportion. I am not obliged, because I am content with enough, to take either too much or too little. The gentleman fails to mark the distinction which pervades all practical affairs. The gentleman wishes to build himself a convenient house, and arrange an elegant suite of rooms. He proposes thirty-two. I tell him thirty-two are too many, that he will make a lot of pigeon-holes instead of apartments, and suggest to him the number of eight. He says, "If eight are better than thirty-two, four would be better than eight, and one would be better than four." I propose to build a ship, and the gentleman says to me, "Take the Half-moon which brought Hendrick Hudson to the discovery of the great river-take that for your model.," I say, "No; that is too small for modern uses." Then he says, "Take the Great Eastern." "The Great Eastern is too large." May I not observe this system of proportion in adapting my requirements to the wants of the occasion out of which it grows? Is not the fallacy of the gentleman obvious; is it not clear that I am not obliged, because I am discontented with thirty-two, to take one; and am I obliged, because one is too few, or four too few to go on up to thirty-two? I may take a medium number; a number at any convenient point. Then we were met with another observation that has been repeated throughout this Convention as though it really amounted to something. It is said that if we go from thirty-two districts to eight we are going back on the Constitution of 1846 and going back upon the people. Well. sir, what does this idea of going back amount to? I suppose, sir, that we were sent here to go either back or forward, and it is quite immaterial, as far as the principle is involved, whether we do what he calls going back or going forward. We were sent here to change the Constitution. We were sent here to ascertain What part of the Constitution reason and experi ence approved as good, and what part of it reason and experience rejected as not good, and we were to make the changes that reason and experience prompted. We go back, therefore, to the extent to which we make any such change in the Constitution; and we were sent here to go back, in that sense, or else, sir, why are we here at all? We have heard the opinions of members of the Convention of 1846 constantly quoted and flung in our face as though these opinions were to decide anything here. These opinions are in the Constitution and with the total results of these opinions, as so embodied, the people were not content, and they sent us here to reform their work, because they were discontented with that work. We go on departing from their opinions as far as necessary. We departed from the Constitution of 1777 to that of 1821; from that of 1821 to that of 1846; from that of 1846 to that of 1867. We departed from the Confederation to the Constitution. We go on as a self-governed people, and the people are constantly developing in intellectual power, by education and experience, and adapt their institutions to existing wants; and it is precisely that process which we are attempting to follow here. Then, it is said that we are placing the representatives further from the people by taking larger districts than in taking small. Now, sir, I do not quite comprehend that proposition. I do not see why I am further from my representative when he is elected in a larger, than when he is elected in a smaller district. I vote for supervisors; I vote for members of Assembly; I vote for Senators; I vote for a judge in a district consisting of oneeighth part of the State, I vote for court of appeals judges in a district composed of the whole State; I vote for Governor. In every instance, I exercise my power directly upon my representative. There is no intermedd'lng. There is no go-between separating me and my representative. He is brought directly in contact with me, and I with him, by deliberate choice, for the functions which he is to perform in the government, and it seems to me it is a mere idle refinement to talk about separating constituents more widely from their representatives, whether you elect in the larger or smaller districts. The fact that he is my choice, without any intermediary, is the fact that brings him in direct personal contact with me. Now, the gentleman from Orange [Mr. Fullerton] told us the other day that the constituent knew the Senator when he was from a district representing a thirty-second part of the State, but that the knowledge of the constituent did not go beyond the bound of the narrow district; that he was able, in the exercise of his political sagacity, to find one man in a narrow district who was fit to be a Senator. " Diogenes his lantern needs no more; One Senator is found, the search is o'er." The capacity of the constituent was limited by the bounds of a single narrow district. Now, sir, I do not so apprehend the intelligence of the people of the State of New York, and the gentleman will excuse me if I say that all that sort of talk seems to me to be a libel upon the intelligence of the people of the State of New York. Either the candidates 775 for Senators and for other high officers must be so exceedingly small that we need a microscope to discover them, or the people must be exceedingly ignorant or narrow, or there must be intelligence enough to search over a considerable district, and to know a man that passes through the various grades of office, or who holds a position socially or politically in a large community for a considerable number of years-to know who are the men best fitted by intelligence and integrity of character to represent them in the Senate of the State; and I say again, I think all this sort of remark about the narrowness of the people, and the limit of their intelligence, is a libel upon the good sense of the people. Now, sir, I believe that the true way to deal with the people is not to flatter them, but to tell them the truth and to give them honest advice; and I think the part that we in this Convention are to perform is just this: Vot to look for things that may be thought at present popular, not to look for things that are flattering that may be said of the people, but to look the facts of the situation in the face, to find out what is best, and to tell the people the honest truth, and keep to our honest convictions of the truth; and I think, so proceeding, we ought to tell the people that they ought to exercise a large and careful choice in the election of their representatives to the smaller and in some respects more important department of the Legislature; that they ought to select the candidates for that place with regard to a larger intelligence and a larger character; that they should not be selected throuoh the narrow interests of petty localities, but they should be men of mind large enough to comprehend the wants and the interests of the great State of which the districts are but parts. I think that is the advice we ought to give to them, as the result of our careful consideration of the plan upon which the legislative department of the government is formed, with its division of legislative chambers. Mr. LANDON-I should not participate in this debate to-night, sir, did I not deem that some of the arguments advanced this morning in support of the large district system were more specious than sound. The gentleman from Ontario [Mr. Folger] told us that the principal object of the large district system is to procure the independence of the Senator. What is that independence? He explains to us that the Senator coming from the present single district, in the discharge of his duty, is annoyed by the wants of his constituents. The independence that he seeks, then, is- independence of his constituents, He wishes a Senator to be placed in so large a district, that he may be able to despise and evade the wants of his constituents. Sir, when we have that kind of a Senator, we will have a Senator that will be irresponsible; for the responsibility which he owes to the State, which is all the gentleman desires, will not oppress him. Sir, when we have power, and do not add to it responsibility to the source from which that power is derived, we create tyrants. Th9 history of tyrants all over the world is the history of power joined to irresponsibility. Do we want such a system? Do we want Senators in this State to bear the exalted honors of office and be free from its cares and responsibilities- to be indo pendent of their constituents? I think not. I think we want men who should be responsible to some power somewhere; and when we divorce the power from the responsibility, we have lost control over it, and our servants may represent us here and they may not. Again, sir, these districts have been spoken of contemptuously as smalL Do they not consist of one hundred and fifteen thousand people, and are one hundred and fifteen thousand people nobody? Are their rights not worth preserving? Are not the rights and interests of one hundred and fifteen thousand worth the care and consideration of any Senator? Are the rights of one hundred and fifteen thousand men of such a character that they can be safely committed, or might as well be committed, as the gentleman from Onondaga [Mr. Andrews] says, to the small politicians, " the vampires of the State? " I think it is a strange doctrine to be announced here, that the rights of so large a body of men, larger than the inhabitants of some of the States of the Union, will under the present system naturally be committed to the care of vampires. Gentlemen clamor for experience in the Senate. Does experience always bring virtue? The gentleman from Ontario [Mr. Folger] this morning, referring to his own experience, showed how experienceMr. FOLGER -Will the gentleman allow meto explain? I disclaim ever having used such means myself to pass a bill in which I had an interest. Mr. LANDON -I accept the explanation. Referring, then, to his observation, he showed us how experience might beget "log-rolling;" but there was no need for the gentleman in this hall, or anywhere throughout this State, to let us know that his own hand had not propelled the lever. Experience in legislation is sometimes accompanied with vice, but long experience makes it less repulsive. "Vice is a monster of such hideous mien, As, to be hated, needs but to be seen; But seen too oft, familiar with her face, We first endure, then pity, then embrace." May it not be so with our Senators? The gentleman from Albany [Mr. Harris] says the Convention of 1846 made a mistake in abandoning the large districts. I am not old enough to speak from personal knowledge as to the working of the system under the large districts, but the gentlemen who have preceded me in this debate have referred to the cotem. porary evidence in regard to the character of that system, and that evidence speaks in no uncertain tone. It is evidence tending to show that Senators chosen in large districts abandon the interests of their constituents, that they come here to the capital of the State and engage in aiding the claims of aspirants to office and making money. I beg leave to read from the speech of Mr. Morris, taken from the report of the debates of the Convention of 1846: "The great cause of calling this body together was that the constituency were misrepresented by the delegates elected. They were elected under promises and pledges they never kept, and used the power given them to make money and to advance aspirants to political favor." It may be, sir, that many of the arguments which were introduced in 1846 in opposition to the large or quadruple system, may, under the light of subsequent experience, and now, when we have forgotten the facts upon which those arguments were based, be deemed more specious than sound. But we have this fact remaining, that that system of senatorial districts was condemned by the deliberate judgment of the people of the State who tried them; and unless we are willing to close our eyes to the experience of those who have preceded us, to the arguments which they have furnished us, to the evidence which they have transmitted to us, we cannot entirely agree with the gentlemen who kindly say that a mistake was made in 1846: What khid of a mistake was it, sir, to abandon a system which was so full of fraud and corruption? It may be that those who look back over the space of twenty yewenttwenty years, sir, which have perhaps thrown their shadows over the vices 4nd left only the merits of that body perceptible-it may be that those men regard with regret the system which has passed away, and which, if they forget its demerits, they Amay regard as one of the last landmarks of the better days of the State. These gentlemen tell us they had better Senators under the old system than under the new. This is a statement pleas'ant to make, and it is a statement very unpleasant to contradict. Pleasant to make, because the most of those Senators have in the lapse of twenty years, gone down to their graves full of honors, and those who survive have survived all calumny, and worthily enjoy the honors which a younger race of men honor themselves with bestowing upon them; but, I think, in contrasting the present system with the past, we should be careful to guard against the illusions of the past. I think there is the same tendency in this respect as in others, the same that Dr. Johnson speaks of when he says that we estimate an author's merits when living by his worst performance, and when dead by his best; that we are always more willing to honor past than present excellence. Macaulay tells us that society, while always advancing with eager speed, is always looking backward with tender regret;, that we are, in this respect, like the traveler in theArabian desert. Beneath the caravan all is dry and bare, but far in the advance and far in. the rear is the semblance of refreshing waters. We should be careful here, sir, that we do not view too keenly the vice of the present, nor the virtues of the past. The fault is not one of system. It is idle for gentlemen here to contend that we can have a good Senate as the consequence of the size or the shape of the district. It is probably true, sir, that under the old system they-had some bad Senators, as we now have; that under the old system there was corruption, ae there is under this. The fault, sir, is not in the system, it is in the men. "The fault, dear Brutus, is in ourselves, not in our stars, that we are underling." If we wish to have good Senatore, let us urge the people themselves to an examination of this question. Let us take the politicaipower of the State out of the hands of the professional politicians, out of the hands of the shoulder-hitters, the wire-pullersthe schemers and the demagogues. Let the people who are interested in having good government interest themselves in securing it, and then sir, I care not whether the district be large or small, we will have a good man if we can find one in the district. I am just as much opposed as any other member of this House to corrupt legislation, but if we expect to remedy the evil by large districts we are in error. I think we can find some remedy for it, in withdrawing from the Legislature cognizance of that special legislation which constantly surrounds and fills this chamber. If we destroy the source of corruption,we need not stop to purify the channel. I think, sir, that the increase of pay would tend to promote the virtue of our legislators, for I can conceive that it is hardly possible in the city of Albany, when board is advertised at four dollars a day under the caption of "great reduction in prices," for virtue to find himself well clothed, well fed, and kept respectable at three dollars a day. I do not think our people expect that. But, another reason, sir. I hold it to be a fundamental maxim in our system, that the nearer the power is kept to the people, the better that power will be preserved. I know it has been sneeringly said that that is the argument of the demagogue; but the statesman may well take a lesson from the demagogues sometimes; for it does happen that his keener instincts will discern the truth where the slow reason of the statesman will fail to discover it. I know it to be true, sir, that in our small towns throughout the State, where the people themselves assemble to, nominate their officers without the intervention of delegates, the best men of the town are chosen, as a rule-a rule to which there is scarcely an exception. But when we come to the larger towns and the smaller cities, where the intervention of delegates becomes necessary, there the high standard of merit prevailing in the small towns begins to; fail. The delegate begins to deal on his own account and for his own advantage; and as we increase the size of the district, we lind tle same falling off in virtue. Is it true, sir, of this whole State, taken as a district, that the people, in the manner in which officers are now elected, select their best men for their highest offices? I think the experience and the observation of every gentleman here will bear witness that they do not as a rule. Why, sir, in this State, rich with its men of wealth, culture and statesmanship, the best offices are dealt out to satisfy the clamors of locality and the claims of scheming politicians. All of us have voted for men whom we did not know-whom, when we came to know, we regretted having voted for. The people themselves will not vote for a bad man if they know him; and in a small district they may know him, and in. a large district they cannot. So that the argument of keeping power nearer to the people is true not only in theory, but it is true in practice. The nearer it is kept there, the better will that power be exercised. Another word, sir, in regard to the representation of minorities. The single district system will tend better than any otler to secure a representation to minorities until we shall adopt the system, or something like the system, introduced by. the gentleman from Westchester [Mr. Greeley]. A new and true idea in govern 777 ment develops as slowly as an oak grows. I am and he seeks slowly and carefully to find that glad that this system has the advocacy and sup- which lies underneath. Now, sir, if these prineiport of the gentleman fro-n Westchester [Mr. pies be true, it will follow that the only mode in Greeley], and I hope he will live long enough to which these double results can be accomplished is see the people educated to demand it; but until by a diverse organization of the two louses. How that time shall come, the present system will allow shall we have a valuable appeal if one court is us occasionally to have a republican from New organized precisely like another? How shall' w# York and a democrat from some republican portion check the passions of the people if the two housesd of the State. reflect equally those passions, and are equally Mr. T. W. DWIGHT-In rising to speak at this filled with men of a headlong and a passionate. late stage of the debate, it will hardly be possible for character. The authors of the Federalist say me to throw out any new ideas. The most that I wisely that it is politic to distinguish the twocan expect to do will be to present those views houses from each other by every circumstancee that have come before the Convention in a some- which comports with a due harmony in all proper what new and different light. I am unequivocally measures and genuine principles of republican in favor of what is known as the large district government. Now, sir, it has been already said system, as in the form presented to us now-in in the progress of this debate, that we favor of eight districts as distinguished from thirty- have abundant illustrations of this principle, two. And in my mind this subject involves the especially in the two great and stable whole theory of representative government; be- governments of the present time, those cause, if we are to have two houses, one of which of England and the United States. The statesis a mere repetition of the other, then I say abolish men of England understand this principle so one of the houses, for that is much the simplest well that they seek to introduce diverse eleo form. What then is the real ground on which ments even into the same house. In the very we are to have two houses of the Legislature? last reform- movement of the present month, it There have been minds of a philosophical was seen fit by the English statesmen to introturn which have been led to the conclusion duce a member for the university of London, aswas that, as society is indivisible, therefore we ought previously the case with Oxford and Cambridge, to have one house, as expressing its in- and we know well that in the organization of the divisibility. One of the leading advocates of other house very diverse elements are brought in this theory was Benjamin Franklin, who pre- contact. Now, if this is so true in the: single seated his ideas in such a way as to stigmatize house, how much more is it true that the the opposite view with ridicule. He is reported true spirit of legislation demands there shall to have said that two assemblies appeared to him be diverse elements in the two houses? I like a practice he had somewhere seen of certain shall not dwell on this branch of the argument, wagoners, who, when about to descend a steep as I have already been anticipated in it by the hill with a heavy load, if they had four cattle, gentleman from Kings [Mr. Van Cott]i Now, took off the first pair, and chaining them to the sir, if we come to our own present condition, hind part of the wagon, drove them up hill, do we need this diverse organization for our own while the pair before and the weight of the load protection? Why, sir, we have been told by gentleoverbalancing the strength of those behind, drew men familiar with the condition of affairs in Albany, them slowly and moderately down the hill. By that corruption has stolen into every department this allusion he succeeded in carrying the State of the Legislature: it has even defiled the sweet of Pennsylvania for a single house; but a wiser hand of charity. Whether that be true or not, we statesman than Franklin, the elder Adams, made are informed that there is a species of log-rolluse of this incident in the true spirit of ing" here which is akin to corruption. Now, sir, philosophy. Using the words of Harring- what do gentlemen in the Convention propose in ton, somewhat varied, he says, "Oh I the order to meet the public sentiment on this subject'? depth of the wisdom of God, who, by the simple They have but two things to propose as far as I invention of a poor carter, has revealed to man- have heard. One is to give members a salary; kind the whole mystery of a commonwealth, the other is to endeavor to prevent special legislawhich consists in dividing and equalizing forces tion. Now, sir, in regard to the first-can disand in controlling the weight of the load and the honest men be made honest by paying them a, activity of one part by the strength of the other." salary? Have thieves ever been prevented fromn And this great statesman expended great labor in thieving by a voluntary contribution? In regardendeavoring to show from all experience and all to the second, the gentleman from Ontario [Mr. history that there must be two houses in a repre- Folger] has told us that it is impossible, as 1 be sentative government in order that the activity lieve it is, to prevent special legislation. WFe and progress of the one may be balanced by the must have it or else abolish the Legislature. But: conservatism of the other. Now, sir, I speak even if we could abolish special legislation, what' more specifically of two great reasons why we would be the next step? Suppose we had only. need two houses of the Legislature here; first, general laws, then the effort of an unscranegatively, that we may prevent improper legis- pulous lobby would be to obtain speeiak lation from being introduced; and, secondly, pos- legislation under the guise of general law. If O: itively, that we may employ one house as a man has a special provision which he wishes to veto or a check upon the other, and that we may have applied to a corporation in which he isintemenable the people themselves to correct their ested, he will seek to alter the general law efP hasty action. The statesman finds that there is corporations; if he wishes to release himsel fm often, one layer of public opinion under another, a hated marriage tig, he will seek to alter thge 98 eral law of divorce. There are gentlemen who vention are here for the purpose of hearing the hear me who know that this kind of effort has discussions and then acting upon them. This been made already in our Legislature-an effort same author, Harrington, to whom I have before to obtain a general law to meet particular cases; alluded, though somewhat visionary in many of but that which has already transpired is as noth- his suggestions, yet made very many sagacious ing to that which would be experienced if we remarks. Among others, he endeavored to liken should abolish all special legislation. Now, sir, the Legislature and the people to two maidens you cannot stop corruption by any constitutional who are dividing a cake between them. One piety or philosophy. You must have men in the says to the other, "I will divide and you shall Legislature. How to secure them is the problem. choose." And that he says is like the Legislature I have no faith in increased salaries, no faith in and the people. The Legislature are to examine, the abolition of special legislation. I only hope, discuss, determine, or to ' divide," as he called it, for the sake of New York, that we shall have and the people are to choose. I think that is our true and faithful men. How are we to get such function here. We are to make the very best men? That is the question. Now, sir, in my Constitution we know how, and then we opinion the only mode presented to us for obtain- are to submit it to the people. If the peoing these better men is to take the course presented pie reject it, I shall not despair. Our by this committee. I do not think it will accom- thoughts will be on record, and if they are right plish everything for us, that the reign of virtue the people will some time agree to them, and will will necessarily return in full; but I do believe either send us or others here to put their wishes it will accomplish something; I do believe in form. I hope no one of us will ever adopt a we will get men to represent the State in the rule which he thinks is radically wrong, merely Senate as distinguished from men who repre- because he supposes there may be some person sent localities in the Assembly. That, I believe, or persons among the people who may object to is the true system. As I hive endeavored it. Next, sir, in regard to the Albany regency. to show, we are here to organize two houses on I think that is an idle fear. The Albany regency the principle of diversity, and the only diversity is but a word to conjure with. The time has been admissible under our system is that of a larger or when it was a power, but it has irrevocably gone. smaller constituency. We cannot, as they do in Who is there now to take up the tangled threads, the English Parliament, give representation to even in this Convention, and hold them in one the educational interest. We cannot give it to direction for a single moment? Not one. The towns and cities as distinguished from counties. mighty men who welded the forces of party are The only mode left for us to make it sure that the dead or decaying, and they have and can have no great interests of the State shall be represented successors. The only use that can now be is to furnish in the one house men from the State made of the Albany regency is to frighten substantially, and to the other house men from men from their propriety, as is attempted to be localities; and we do substantially arrive at this done in this Convention, and as is sometimes done result by electing the Senators from large districts. with children in a nursery. Now, sir, it seems to me that the two great evilsl lg gro from which the State of New York suffers are When Risingham inspires the tale; the spirit of public parsimony, and the spirit of Chili's dark matrons long shall tame locality. By this public parsimony we do not The froward child by Bertram's name." pay public men what they really earn, and by that Now, finally, what is the only other objection? spirit of locality we have dwarfed their aims and That we are to have aged men in the Senate - purposes, and kept them from rising to that old politicians. This is not to be the era of young position which they would have attained if men, but the era of old men. I am one of those they had not been obliged to account to a local who believe the Senate has its appropriate name, constituency. As the gentleman from Ontario derived as it is from an assembly of the elder men, [Mr. Folger] told us, this constituency will call and I shall not regret to see it largely composed of for an account, and most rigidly exact it, unless that class. The time will come when the younger the course of their representative, on questions in men, in the ripeness of their years and in their which they are locally interested, is precisely in wisdom will reach it; but I am certainly not willaccordance with their own views.. What have ing to have it said to us, as old Lord Chancellor been the objections urged by the gentlemen Hatton said in Queen Elizabeth's time, of on the other side to the large district the men in his day. He says, "wThere system? They seem to me to resolve them- are in public life many young men, raw young selves into three. One we have heard urged men, negligent and careless, and I think it is, that there is likely to be a return of the a great shame to this Commonwealth that it is Albany regency; another, that we should have attempted to be ruled by such men." Now, sir, in the Senate decayed and worn-out politicians; without any aspersion at all upon the present Another, that the voice of thie people is against Senate, I have only to say, it is no harm, but this change. Now, sir, how have the gentlemen rather a benefit to a State, to have one body of heard the voice of the people? Why, in gen- the Legislature which is filled by the wisdom eral through the local press. And what of the older men, while the other house is the local press? It is the voice, so far should be so organized as to represent the activity as we know at present, of a single man and earnestness of the younger men in the cornwho has not heard the discussions on munity. this subject, and who, if he did hear them, might Mr. HARDENBURGH-I am one of those who change his views; while the members of the Con- oppose this system, which has been correctly 779 stated by the gentleman from New York [Mr. escape this predicament, and I see no force, thereEvarts] as the compound system, and am fore, in the remarks that have been made by the decidly in favor of the single district system; and distinguished members of this body in favor of the I declare that I have listened a long while for any large district system, or what is more properly sensible reason (I speak it with all due respect) spoken of as the compound system. Now, what I why men should cling to the old system, that had desire, and the principal reason upon which I shall been abolished in 1846, by the members of that base my vote upon this question, is, that there Convention. And I join with the gentleman from shall be a direct and immediate representative Albany [Mr. Harris], as I do with the gentle- responsibility in the Legislature, whether he may man from Ontario [Mr. Folger], in expressing be a member of Assembly or of the Senate; and also my surprise and regret (but on the other I confess I was fairly surprised when I learned side of the question) at the opposite views from the lips of the gentleman from Ontario [Mr. expressed by gentlemen. I cannot understand Folger] that he desired a division of responsibility. why it is urged here in this Convention, after He wanted four Senators elected, so that the retwenty years' experience, that we should go back sponsibility might be divided among them. to a system that had received the condemnation I insist upon it, Mr. Chairman, and to the memof the people twenty years ago. Now, I desire bers of this Convention - and I say it with all to ask the members of this Convention a question due respect - that that idea of a division of which has been propounded by half a dozen mem- responsibility is what the people of this country bers on this floor. Is there a single petition here desire to avoid. I propose that the Executive of in favor of the proposed change? Has the press this State shall be the administration for the time spoken on this subject? Gentlemen say they being. I want him to have power; I want him understand that it is the universal voice of their to select, if you please, his cabinet, so that the constituents. The ordinary channels of commu- people can point their finger at him and say, nication certainly have not furnished us with any " You, sir, are responsible for the evil government such information; and I may speak, as they do, under which we are living." And I want to say of my own constituents. I hear no such voice to the Senator that his people alone have elected from them. I do not stand here advocating this him, and they say ' if you falter we shall take care single district system upon the ground that many of you." In the district in which I live, with a of its advocates have taken. I do not propose to democratic majority now of about twelve or place it upon the ground that it has been once or fifteen hundred, and which it has had for a long twice rejected. Later in this session I shall ask period past, they have had on the opposition my friend from Schenectady [Mr. Landon] to put ticket almost as many members elected as we himself upon the negro suffrage question, as he have. And why? In that senatorial district, did upon this, that it had been twice submitted I say, composed of the counties of Ulster separately to the people. I propose to put this and Greene, in the -last eight or ten years, question upon its merits, and if any gentleman will they have elected nearly as many men stand up on this floor and state that a Senate of this as we, and simply because we put up worse men State should be so far removed from the people, than they did. You have got men known by all as many of them have claimed they should the voters, and the people vote on them. Put be, I certainly cannot go with them. But, Mr. them in large counties, and you will come back Chairman, to this extent I will go with any mem- directly to where you are now. You have got ber of this House. You make your system eight, to locate them. The geography of politics, as I and then elect only eight Senators. Make it expressed it, will immediately compel you to put sixteen, and elect only sixteen Senators. Make them in different parts of that district, whatever it thirty-two, and elect thirty-two Senators. I it may be, and so you come right back to this desire that each Senator shall represent his own system. I ask any man that looks at this thing people, and nobody else; and the idea that is in the light of established and proved facts, how advanced here, that if you have a district com- are you going to better yourself and get better posed of seven or eight counties, and run four men men? I do not believe this idea that the present in it, you will get better men in qualifications, and Senate of this State is any less intelligent, in virtue, or in anything that goes to add to or or, in fact, any less corrupt, than every other make up the model statesman. is an idea that I do Senate that wielded the power and politics of this not myself agree to. I know very well that you State in the days that have passed away. I know cannot; and it is the idlest idea in the world for men on this floor who are the peers and have the a gentleman to stand up here, with a known and power of any man that occupied the Senate chami accepted and proved fact in the politics of this ber, or that sat in it in those earlier days to which country staring him in the face, and frame a law gentlemen desire to put us back to. The distinor put a provision in this Constitution, of the kind guished gentleman from Ontario [Mr. Folger] as a proposed. Is it not true, I ask every gentleman legislator, although he may not be as distinguished on this floor now, that even with your single dis- a lawyer as Mr. Spencer was, as a legislator I do trict system you do not rotate from county to not discover that he is in any other respect his county, and with your large districts you will not inferior. I know others here. I do not believe do precisely the same thing? You have got six in that idea, and you will not accomplish anything counties or seven counties, and instantly the by advancing a single step in the back track. locality composed of one or two will claim Well, now, sir, it is not alone on that ground that the one Senator, and another locality I place my vote. I desire to call the attention of another, and the geography of politics will con- this committee to a fact that was alluded to trol, as it ever has and ever will. You never can by the distinguished member from Dutchess [Mr. t .780 Carpenter] when he was discussing the pending framers originally of this system; and I claim question. The question is not whether the term that that is all you want now. I do not iunderwill be four years, or two years, or three years; stand that, when I vote upon the proposition of it is whether it shall be the single district, and the gentleman from Cortland [Mr. Ballard], I amu whether they are eight or ten, or whether they voting at all upon any tenure system; I am votare thirty-two, is of no consequence here. The ing upon the naked, bare proposition whether we question is whether the district, whatever it may will have this Senate elected by the people be, shall be represented by a single man, not directly, or whether we will have the responsibility running four men, one under the shadow and divided, by electing four or five together; we wing of another. That is the difficulty I see in can discuss the other propositions hereafter. I any other district system. Now, in 1846, when shall vote, therefore, Mr. Chairman, upon this this system was abolished, it was not because of question, for a single district system as against the fact that there was an Albany regency. It the compound district system, in favor of the was not because of the fact that the system, amendment of the gentleman from Cortland [Mr. in the respect of that concentration of power, had Ballard], and for the reasons I have given. become a failure. Sir, as was shadowed out in Mr. AXTELL -Mr. Chairman, I have listened the report of the gentleman from Westchester very attentively to this debate during the time it [Mr. Greeley], even in that early day the has been progressing, and I have earnestly depolitical thinkers of that hour desired to adopt sired to be convinced of the necessity and the some plan, to seek out some remedy, by which expediency of adopting the principle embodied in minorities might be represented. Not having the the report of the committee. But up to this full knowledge that the distinguished journalist time the arguments to which I have listened have from Westchester [Mr. Greeley] had, they resorted failed to convince me of the expediency of adoptto this system of smaller districts, so that, to that ing large senatorial districts. Those arguments extent at least, minorities might be repre- would have force if we were discussing the prosented. But, adopt these large districts, and I priety of leaving the appointment of Senators to would like to see how minorities can be repre- somebody outside of the people of this State. sented. Almost every member of this Conven- If we were proposing that Senators should be tion, I think every single member of this Conven- appointed, there would be to my mind more of tion, is in favor of a certain sprinkling of repre- force and pertinency in the arguments which sentation on the part of the minority in this State, have been presented in support of the report divided as the parties are by simply fifteen or of the committee. I do not understand, twenty thousand, and yet the one party over- if the people are to elect in large districts, whelmed in both branches of the Legislature. how the character of the Senate is to be improved Putting them down into smaller districts you do by thus extending the districts. I have failed to see reach that desired end. That was the object of as yet how that is to be done. Is it a fact the Convention of 1846, and it went as far as that the dignity of the Senate would be increased their knowledge at that time permitted them to by large districts? I have heard a great deal go, and I never shall abandon it as far as I am said on this floor about the " dignity" of the concerned. Now, I think the gentleman who has Senate, the importance of having a dignified spoken on this question [Mr. T. W. Dwight], and body, and I have tried to picture to myself made his argument in respect to the division of a Senate that would realize this ideal of ex. these two Houses-namely, that there should be a alted dignity if the views of the gentlemen were distinet and diverse body, the Senate from the to take form in the Constitution. I have Assembly-fell into an error. I differ entirely from thought it was possible that there might be an him. It was with no idea that the Senate should illustration of the idea of the country parson be older, or that they should be better men, or when he spoke of the dignity of dullness or the purer men, or more intelligent men than the House dullness of dignity. Is it true, Mr. Chairman, of Assembly, that John Jay, who drafted the Con- that dignity in the Senate is the main thing to be stitution of 1777, and from which the ideas of the sought? And is it true that dignity is increased Constitution of the United States were taken, first by an increase of territory or an enlarged constarted this idea of two Houses. Will any stituency? Is that true as a matter of fact? man deny but that the Assembly should Then, if that be true, I submit that when you be just as intelligent as the Senate? No man make a constituency of one hundred thousand you here will deny it at all; none will deny it. quadruple the dignity of the Senate as compared What, then, was his purpose? It was simply with the Assembly. And if the proposition of the that the two Houses should differ in respect committee prevail, then the dignity of the Senate of the tenure of office, to put one body into power will be made as sixteen to one. I submit that no for four years or six years, so that the lower Senate could live under such an accumulation of House which came annually into this hall to make dignity as that. No system, no mere political and pass laws might be subjected to the check arrangement will secure that type of character, (often necessary in moments of excitement and that manliness, that broad and comprehensive passion, such as might be illustrated by the statesmanship which is necessary in a Senator, know-nothingism of our own day) of the House if these elements are wanting among the people, having a longer term, and that such House might and I do not assume that they are wanting. No hold that check, and pause until it could be dis- mere extension of constituency can secure supecovered whether the people were ready for the rior talents and qualificatiofis. Take as an exampreposed movement. Tenure of office is all that pie the Senate of the United States (and I cid,an allthatwas iateaded tobsettledby the have a, most profound respect for that body), 781 is it true that the smaller States send men to the Senate who are inferior to the men who are sent there by the larger States? Take this great State of New York, for instance, the largest constituency that there is in this land (and far be it from me to depreciate the character of the men who have represented the State of New York in the Senate of the United States), take this State since we have existed as a nation. Is it true that the Senators from the State of New York have been superior to the Senators from the smaller States-of the State of Vermont, for instance, or from Massachusetts? I have some State pride, and yet, in looking over the roll of illustrious names that have represented this State. and comparing them with the names of men from smaller States, I fail to find a confirmation of the position assumed by gentlemen on this floor, that the larger the constituencies the more powerful and commanding will be the character of the men who represent them. Now, Mr. Chairman, it would be well for us to refer to the population of this State when we became a State, and when these various districts were adopted, and compare that population with the present, and with what probably will be the population in the future. I have not the figures prior to 1820; but in 1820 I find there was a population of 1,302,812 in this State. A year after that, eight districts were adopted, which gave a population to each senatorial district of 162,000, a little more than 40,000 constituents to each Senator. In 1825 there were 201,000 population in a senatorial district. In 1845, 325,000, or a little more in the senatorial district, and in 1875, according to the proposition of the committee, there will be 477,000 and upwards in the senatorial district. If the population shall go on increasing,as I doubt not it will increase, there will be in twenty years about 9,000,000 of people in the State, giving a population of a million or more in a senatorial district. Now, I ask, are we prepared to adopt a system that will concentrate our political power into the hands of a few in these large districts? Is it not the part of wisdom, on the contrary, to adhere to the system that was adopted twenty years ago, increasing the number of senatorial districts, if need be, thus giving a fair opportunity for the representation of minorities in different localities, as gentlemen on this floor have intimated? I am in favor of the proposition of the gentleman from Cortland [Mr. Ballard]. I believe it will be wise to adhere to it I shall be happy, however, to be convinced that it would be best to adopt a system radically different from that which is incorporated in the present Constitution. Mr. KETCHAM -I am opposed to the change from single to quadruple senate districts as proposed by the report of a majority of the eamrittee and for reasons some of which I wigl endeavor to state briefly. I came here with strong predilections in favor of the quadruple district system. But the utter izpaosibilty of making any satisfactory adjustme.at of the boundaries of the districts, which haadeveloped itself in the discussions on the reprt, and other reasons assigned in the diseussion, Lavi cQtnineed me of its impropriety. A considertioxa eists also in the fact that the. quadruple district system tends almost necessarily to throw the selection of candidates much more into the hands of mere politicians, men who may have the prestige of a former, but now obsolete political influence and popularity in their immediate neighborhood, and who, though they may have lost all influence at home, are still erroneously supposed, among their former associates abroad, to represent fairly the desires and sentiments of their immediate neighbors. I believe, too, that gentlemen who claim for Senators elected under the quadruple district system superiority over those chosen under the present plan are altogether mistaken. I believe the present will compare well with the old members of that body. I do not believe that all the wisdom and integrity of the State died with the last or will die with the present generation. Again, Mr. Chairman, the system would be inoperative in practice. Each quarter of each district would claim the right to select one of the four candidates, and it would always be successful in the claim, except when, as would often be the case, they were defeated by the manipulations of the little senatorial regencies, of which there would be eight in the State, each a mere auxiliary to the State regency always existing at the capitol. I apprehend we can find men in abundance in every senate district in the State, as at present organized, as able and honest as were ever selected from larger districts. And do gentlemen hope to avoid corruption by enlarging the districts and removing responsibility farther from the people? I tell you, Mr. Chairman, corruption is not controlled by or confined to localities. I believe compensation has something to do with it, and more, even, than locality. If we want to preserve the purity and honesty of our legislators, we must remove as far from them as possible temptations to dishonesty. We must pay them enough to live on, and pay enough to secure the services of capable and honest men. If we put men in a position where they must steal or starve, they must be possessed of more funds than some, and a higher appreciation of moral integrity than most men, or they will steal rather than starve. Gentlemen talk about small districts. Are gentlemen aware that each Senator now represents a constituency nearly twice as large as did our former representatives in Congress? The gentlemen from Schenectady [Mr. Landon] had it too low. It is over 111,000, and in area they cover almost as much territory as the whole State of Rhode Island. Are gentlemen aware that our districts are now larger than those of any other State in the Union, and more than twice as large as those of most Statea? Such is the fact. Again, Mr. Chairman, let me ask is there not difference enough in representation between the Senate and Assembly when a Senator represents over 117,000, and a member of Assembly only about 25,000 or 30,00, oronequarter that of a Senator. The gentlema from Ontario [Mr. Folger] told us omething of the system of log-rolling which he says prevails in our Senate as at present cnstituted. He disclaims any resort to it himself, and I believe utruly; ad I presume every genldBaBe on this floor, and off this floor, who has Abeo fhi the Senate, could; w eoequal heaesty maake thi 782 same denial. But, let me ask, cannot the system been charged by him as committing, the honorable of log-rolling to which the gentleman alluded be gentleman who made such charge is bound to speciresorted to just as well, and more successfully, ify when and where, and upon what occasion, I under the system proposed? Will not the com- have been so guilty of corruption. Now, sir, I bined interest and influence of four be more potent do not take it as a conceded fact, or as a concedand therefore more to be coveted than that of one? ed opinion of the people founded upon facts that Again, Mr. Chairman, I do not like to change are known by the people or by anybody in this any system, especially in the organic law of the Convention, that the Legislature is corrupt, State, unless there are cogent reasons for it, and according to any fair or legal interpretation of especially when not demanded by the people. I that word. It is no very difficult thing, sir, for see no very strong reason for the change in this newspaper writers and correspondents to make matter sought to be effected by the report of the charges of legislative corruption, concealing at majority of the committee. The people have not the same time, the dishonest or fraudulent motive asked it so far as I can discover. I have not heard that instigated the charge. A legislative remia single expression in favor of a change, off the niscence of some twelve years ago that occurred floor of this house. I have made up my mind, for in this hall, which I might mention would illustrate the reasons above stated, that it is not desirable fairly about the way in which these charges are to abandon a system we have tried for twenty- frequently and commonly brought against the one years with very general satisfaction to the peo- Legislature. Since the Convention of 1846 a pie, as far as I can judge, and return to a system rural member from the interior of New York, had which, after a trial of seventy years, was the fortune to locate himself in "Sleepy Hollow," emphatically condemned by the people. I in this hall; sitting at his right hand was another shall therefore vote for the amendment of rural member, equally green as rural, the gentleman from Cortland [Mr. Ballard]. from the " secluded district." One day Mr. BAKER-I had not intended to participate a well-dressed gentleman came from the cloakin the discussion on the report, and now only de- room and presented to the honest old gentleman sire to say, that if the report of the committee is from Schoharie a notice, requesting him to present sustained, so far as my county is concerned, we it to the Legislature. The old gentleman very kindly will be entirely content, with the place assigned consented, when that order of business came up, to us in the senatorial arrangement. But I am to present the notice. The telegraph having conopposed to the report of the committee, and am veyed the intelligence to New York the next in favor of the single district system. And I will morning the hotels in the city of Albany were briefly state my reasons. But, first, sir, I will seen to be filled with the president, secretary, examine for one moment the common and frequent cashier, directors and attorneys of a certain charge we have heard made in this Convention of wealthy moneyed corporation, located in the city legislative corruption. A stranger coming into of New York. They immediately instituted a dethese halls and sitting here a few moments, and tective system to discover who had introduced hearing the discussion on this subject, would sup- the notice. They went to the honest old rural mempose that every member of the Legislature, the ber from Schoharie and inquired if he had intro present as well as the past, is guilty of felony and duced the notice. He didn't know exactly whether ought to be convicted of it. Now, sir, it is a he had or not; but stated that a well-dressed, strange idea that intelligent gentlemen good-looking young gentleman had handed him in this Convention will get up here and a paper which he had consented to pass up to the charge that the Legislature is guilty of corruption, Speaker's chair, when under that order when no man can put his finger upon a solitary of business, not knowing its contents. identical fact or circumstance to prove the truth "Well," said the detective, "it is a bill relating of these charges, and, for one, unless proof can be to our corporation; we would like to know who furnished to sustain them, I am opposed to handed you the paper." The old gentleman making them, and desire to say that I do not could not recognize the man who handed him the believe these wholesale charges of legislative cor- paper, but promised to point him out if he saw ruption. If I must come to the conclusion that him again. After spending a few days here these charges are true upon mere newspaper trying to ferret out the mischief-maker, the authority, then I must come totheconclusionthat attorneys, directors and officers of this corpothis Convention is also corrupt, for I have seen in ration went back to New York. They had no several newspapers, since the assembling of this sooner left the city of Albany than this same Convention, charges of corrupt designs by parties operator appeared to the old Schoharie member and cliques in this Convention. It is a very easy and requested him to introduce the bill pursuant thing for newspapers to make charges of legisla. to the notice he had so kindly consented to give. tive corruption-of corruption against a body of The old gentleman looked at and examined him, men where they will not and cannot designate the so as to be able to recognize him thereafter, and party guilty of the corruption alleged, but charge introduced his bill-a bill to amend the charter it generally upon the Convention, or Senate, of a certain corporation in the city of New or Legislature, without specifying the crime York, whose stock was then worth 180. Immeor person guilty of perpetrating it. This diately upon telegraphic notice reaching New is unjust and unfair, cowardly and sneak- York they came-the entire corporation, with ing. If I, as a member of the last or present their attorneys, agents and directors-to disLegislature, call upon any member of this Conven- cover who was at the bottom of this intermedtion:who makes such flippant charges of corrup- dling and intended mischief. They located themtio to put his finger upon the corrupt act I have selves in the various hotels of the city of Albany. 783 The well-dressed gentleman who had instigated the moving of this notice, and carefully drawn up the bill amending the charter of the wealthy corporation of the city of New York, was around in the hotels mingling in conversation with these anxious gentlemen, and was very soon employed by them to attempt to ferret out the man who was at the bottom of this mischief and of their anxious troubles. They were advised by him to go home, and that this well-dressed operator would attend to their affairs. In a few days thereafter this bill was reported from the proper committee, and immediately up came another two car-loads of corporators, directors, agents, detectives, attorneys, and operators to see about preventing the passage of this injurious bill. Within twenty-four hours after their arrival in the city of Albany, this welldressed operator, who had been "dead broke" before, and who had succeeded in securing an employment as "lobby" for the corporation, was flush with money, and able to pay all his hotel bills, and meet all his other obligations, including those recognized as honorable among sporting men. The corporators went home, having learned that gas costs something in Albany as well as in New York. In a few days afterward, in some of the New York papers, I saw charges of legislative corruption in connection'with this notice and bill. and that the Legislature had been bought; and there seemed then to be two sides, one party charging the Legislature with being bought to interfere with the vested rights of the corporation, which was dividing nearly fifty per cent dividend, and the other party charging them with being bought off from the passage of a just and beueticial measure; so that they got the newspaper name and reputation of being bought to interfere, and bought not to interfere, neither of which was true. Now, sir, this is a specimen of very much of the legislative corruption, so much proclaimed through the newspapers, and probably there were not more than two members in the Assembly who knew anything about the operation that was going on. And nobody at the time knew anything about the motives of the party instigating this move. Now, that, sir, is one way in which charges of legislative corruption are started. Whole bodies of men are stigmatized with being corrupt and dishonest, and with being bought and sold, and here in convention we. are working to provide some way to remedy this supposed evil. One gentleman says we must give members of the Legislature better compensation, so they will hot be obliged to steal. Another gentleman says we must select them from larger districts, as though we should secure better or abler men. Now, I am one of those who believe that a constituent should be acquainted with the candidate for whom he votes. I believe I can cast my vote as intelligently for a man within my present senatorial district as I could if it was doubled or quadrupled in size. I have no doubt about it. Now, sir, I concur entirely with the gentleman from Ontario [Mr. Folger] that this Convention can present to the people for their adoption a Constitution which will, by the force of its own terms, take from the Legislature the power to legislate upon local matters, exclusively local matters, which will take out of the Legislature great temptations for logrolling. I do not intend to say that this system of log-rolling is always corrupt as far as the individual Senator or member of Assembly is concerned. We know that gentlemen, sometimes, to save some great and beneficent measure or act, are compelled to yield to smaller evils in the passage of acts which their better judgment disapproves. In that way a system of log-rolling is sometimes adopted. If you will exclude from the power of the Legislature legislation upon a great many wholly local questions, you will take from them the power of committing what is called "legislative corruption," or log-rolling, to a great extent. We should, furthermore, present a Constitution for adoption by the people that will take away from the Legislature the power of giving away the money of the people without limitation and without constitutional obligation. That undoubtedly, in my opinion, is a source of great corruption. If you cut off the power of the Legislature to grant the money or property of the State, to be raised by taxation from the people, to the thousand and one institutions that are springing up everywhere in the State, you will dry up one source of legislative corruption. Now, sir, for an instance of this kind of general legislative corruption, if the committee will bear with me patiently for one moment, though not in my legislative experience. A country member came to this hall a few years ago. He was utterly ignorant of legislation, ignorant of what was necessary, and above all things ignorant of the chief of abominations known as the general appropriation bill. On reaching that bill, he read it over; he found the salaries of the Governor, LieutenantGovernor, the State officers and judges, all put down in the bill in accordance with law. He read on and came to appropriations of large sums of money, $10,000, $15,000 and $50,000, to the thousand and one institutions that are springing up in all the large towns of the State. N ot knowing how or why the State should tax the people at large to support these local institutions -local in their origin and in their benefits-he moved to strike them out; he wanted an explanation. He was simply, and without delay or discussion, howled down by the combined votes of those from the large towns seeking the money. Buffalo had several institutions that had to have an appropriation. New York had several institutions that had to draw from the treasury. Utica had a few institutions that had to draw from the treasury of the State. Oswego, Rochester and every city, and nearly every large vil. lage in the State, had in that omnibus bill an appropriation for institutions that had never been organized under any law, or created by any statute of the State, or by the Constitution, or by authority of the Legislature. Members would not go back upon their local claims, and hence there was a species of log-rolling, by which" if you will vote, Mr. Baker, for Buffalo, I will vote for Montgomery "-if Albany will vote for New York, why, New York will reciprocate the favor of taking the people's money for these private local institutions. This member who was so astounded at tho general appropriation b ai~laXd. to 784 find these things in it, and who had made a move atorial districts, but this Convention may provide to strike it out, and who was so howled down a remedy by inserting in the draft of the Constiwas very kindly informed by a more experienced tution to be presented to the people, a perpetual member that he himself had been caught in the prohibition and limitation upon the power of the same way a few years before, and resorted to Legislature to give and grant away the money of this device to get out of the difficulty. He had the people at large to support these numerous come to the appropriation bill, and found these private, local, and many times sectarian instituitems in it appropriating the money of the people tions, springing up all over the State with such of the State for mostly private and local institu- alarming frequency as to excite the general appretions all over the State, here, there and every- hension that these pretended charit.es are unjust where; had tried to strike them out, and had and insatiable leeches upon the public treasury utterly failed to do so. He went home and of the peoplecomplained to his wife of the struggle he had Here the gavel fell, the gentleman's time having had on the subject in the Assembly. An old expired. lady who was taking tea with his wife says to Mr. E. BROOKS-I do not rise to protract this him, " Why, la I Mr. P., I can tell you exactly how discussion. these'things are done, and I advise Mr. Member A DELEGATE-I hope not. to do the same thing. When we wanted an in- Mr. E. BROOKS —The gentleman will be stitution in'a place I called a few of my benevo- gratified. I shall not occupy the time of the cornlent neighbors together, a few of our old grannies mittee more than two or three minutes. I find a of both sexes, and proceeded to the organization divided duty. I am as strongly as any gentleman, of our institution. I was appointed president, almost, who has spoken, in favor of the large disand Neighbor Such-a-one was appointed secre- trict system. I would be glad to see it adopted tary, and Aunty Such-a-one as treasurer. We by this Convention. But when I contemplate had all the rest of our neighbors put in as execu- the two propositions which are before us tive committee men. We organized an institu- (throwing my amendment entirely out of the tion, and gave it a beautiful, poetical and angelical question), I find a report submitted here on name. We sent up word to our representatives the one hand, asking that this State shall be in the Legislature at Albany that they must give divided into eight senate districts, and that us an appropriation; and whatdo you think? We there shall be elected four Senators in each got $20,000 just by the asking." The indignant of those districts, giving an extra Senator and astonished member continued that he re- to the city of New York. When I examine quested his wife, before the next night, that report I see the precise result I stated to organize a society or "institution," with the on Friday last, that in the district which I repreintent that if he could not strike out these appro- sent 130,000 people are practically disfranchised priations he would ask a portion of them for his upon a question of equality, or, throwing out the "institution." The next night, when the gentle- question of inhabitants, nearly 80,000 citizens man went to tea, his wife handed him a paper more than in the adjoining district or if we compare with the names of the president, treasurer, and voters, some 15,000 voters more, are required to!executive committee of' the new "institution," make a Senator in that district than that in the adand enabled him to state in the Assembly that joining district. If we compare the question of the night that there was a charitable institution assessment of property, I find in the district which organized in his village or city, and that the I, in part, represent on this floor, that it requires benevolent, charitable and kind-hearted members just twice as much property, twice the amount of of his institution had taken money out of their taxation to make a Senator in that district, as own pockets, had gone out into the streets and it does in either of the fourth, fifth, sixth and bestowed charity upon the poor and needy, and seventh districts. Now, I am unwilling, after moved in Committee of the Whole for an appro- such a report as this, presented by a very respeopriation for his " institution," and the Legislature table committee supposed to represent the views gave him fifteen thousand dollars; they gave it of the majority in this body to vote for without even inquiring how long the institution the particular plan which has been just presented -had existed, the place where it was in operation, to this committee and to this Convention. But the character of its originators, or the kind, ex- while I admit the force of the argument which tent or object of its benefactions, but upon the has been presented here to day in favor of large ~motion of the gentleman from, whose districts, and while my observation of four years, -ense of justice had prompted him to ask the experience in the Senate and as a journalist and Legislature to refrain from such profligate and citizen, teaches me that there will be much better iujast grants of the people's money to private, representation under the larger district system -oEal and. sectarian " institutions." They granted than under a small district system, I fail to find 'away $lt,000 more of the people's money to quiet any assurance in the action of this Convention his oppoetiot to the general plunder perpetrated that these districts can be so arranged, or will be ule the good name of charity-and a certain so arranged, as to result in any equitable principle t-bwn bad an "insttution." This, sir, is one of in the end. I, therefore, am.reluctantly Ae mrodes of legislative corruption practiced here compelled, in the hope of securing more justice "i Albany from winter to.wnter, and that, too, to those living upon the sea-board and tmy witoa t any nttio or conscious fraud on the immediate constituents, to vote for the par f iadivclual members instrumental in the amendment which has been introduced by e -rratiior..The remedy for these evils will not the gentleman from Cortland [Mr. Ballard], aid I,befx i oemletion of lar or smal sen- shall give my vote accordingly. Sir, wl.e I amx 785 up, let me make this suggestion. I suppose it to be true, as wall from the census returns, as from our observation, that the population in the interior of this State, outside of the cities, is rather a receding, than an advancing population, or in other words those who live upon farms in the State of New York, are making their farms much larger than they were, and many of the citizens in the western part of the State are selling out and g'oin West, and the population there is being considerably reduced, while upon the sea-board the population is increasing in a ratio entirely unparalleled in the previous history of the State. Sir, the census returns upon which this report is based give the sum of 726,000, as the entire population of the city of New York. Whereas t-he census taken by the Federal government in 1860, five years previous gives the census return in the city of New York, at 813,000. Sir, the population, as I have already stated, is over one million in that city. Whether you give it five senators or whether you give it six senators, you fail to give the city of New York that fair and equitable ratio of representation which justly belongs to her. Sir, one-fourth of the people of the entire State of New York live upon Manhattan Island, throwing out the tens of thousands who live in Kings county, Queens county, Richmond and Westchester. If you were to divide the people on the ratio of representation, making the number of the inhabitants at 4,000,000, the city would be entitled to eight representatives rather than six. But I will not protract the discussion, My hope is, that in the end some fairer, proposition will be made by the majority of this Convention than has been submitted, and seeing no other way to secure what seems to me a better plan, I must vote for the amendment which has been submitted by the gentleman from Cortland [Mr. Ballard]. The question was then put on the first part of the amendme:it offered by Mr. Ballard: "The State shall be divided in thirty-two districts," and it was declared carried, on a division, by a vote of 79 to 35. The CHIAIRNMAN-The question is now on the second part of the proposition of the amendment proposed by the gentleman from Cortland [Mr. Ballard.] Mr. 'TOWNSEND-I move that the committee do now rise report progress and ask leave to sit again. SE VERAL DELEGATES-" No, No". Mr. BURRILL-I move to reconsider the vote just taken. Mr. W. C. BROWN —I move that the motion lie on the table. The CHAIRMAN-The gentleman [Mr. W. C. is informed that it is not in order to lay the question on the table in Committee of the Whole. Mr. ALVORD-I believe that under the rule this will lie on the table. The same rule governs in committee that governs in Convention. Under a rule of the Convention the motion to reconsider must lie on the table. The CHAIRMAN-The Chair is of a different opinion The question is on the motion of the gentleman from New York [Mr. Burrill] to reconsider the vote which has just been taken. 99 Mr. ALVORD -I respectfully appeal from the decision of the Chair; and I will state my ground of appeal. It has been again and again ruled, from the commencement of this Convention up to this time, that a motion to reconsider as a matter of necessity, undsr our rules goes over for a day, and as a Committee of the Whole sitting here confined by the terms of our rules and the Convention, we cannot go beyond that. We cannot hlave any other rules than such rules as obtain in the Convention. In Committee of the Whole all questions of reconsideration, up to this time, have been with the consent of the committee laid over under the rule which governed us in the Convention. We have no right to arrogate to ourselves, in Committee of the Wlhole power that is not specifically granted to us by the rules of the Convention iu that regard. It is for this reason that I most respectfully beg to differ with the Chair in its rulings upon this subject. I trust the Chair will reflect for a moment, and look over the rule as it exists, and decide my poi::t of order well taken, and relieve me frotm the necessity of appealing to the committee. Mr. W. C. BROWN-I wish to read rule 28: "A moeion for reconsideration shall be in order at any time, and may be moved by any member of the Convention; but the question shall not be taken on the motion to reconsider on the same day on which the decision proposed to be reconsidered shall take place, unless by unanimous consent; and a motion to reconsider being once put and lost. slall not he renewed, nor shall any subject be a second time reconsidered without the consent of the Convention. If the motion to reconsider shall not be made on the same day or the day after that on which the decision proposed to be reconsidered was made, three days' notice of the intention to make the motion shall be given." There is another rule I have been requested to read. "Rule 19. The same rules shall be observed in Committee of the Whole as in the Convention, as far as applicable, except that the previous question shall not apply nor shall the yeas and nays be taken on a division." The CHAIRMAN- The opinion of the Chair is that the rule is not applicable to proceedings in Committee of the Whole from the nature of the case. Tile gentleman from Onondaga [Mr. Alvord], appeals from the decision of the Chair. The question before the Committee is, shall the decision of the Clair be sustained. The question was put on sustaining the doision of the Chair, and it was declared carried on a division by a vote of 49 to 48. The CHAIRMAN-The question recteus oh the motion of the gentlenian from New Y~6k [Mr. Burrill] to reconsider the vote on the amen dment of the gentleman from Cortland [Mr. Balard] which has just been taken. Mr. BURRILL-I withdraw the motion. The CHAIRMAN-The question is oni tlie second proposition of the amendment:of the gentleman from Cortland [Mr. Ballard]. Mr. FOLGER-I offer the following atimedment. The CHAIRMAN-A further amendment is not 786 now in order, there being two amendments pending. The question was then put on the second division of tile amendment of Mr. Ballard, being the provision that each district shall choose one Sen, ator, and it was declared carried. The CHAIR\IAN then announced the question on the third subdivision of tile amendment offered by Mr. Ballard, beingl tle provision in reference to the apportionment of the State into thirty-two senate districts. Mr. WEED - May I. ask if, in tie opinion of the Chair, an amendment to substitute will be in order, if the substitute offered by the gentleman from Cortland [Mr. Ballard] is adopted? I ask it with reference to the vote upon the coming proposition? The CHAIRMAN -It will depend upon what the amendment is. Mr. W,EED- Any amendment that is germane will be in order? Tile CHAIRMAN-Tt will. The SECRE TARY commenced to read the pending division of tile amendment of Mr. Ballard. Mr. CONGER-I desire to ask whether the apportionment now being read by the Clerk is precisely tile same as that contained in tile Constitution of 1846 as amended by law last winter? The CHAIRMAN -The Chair is informed that it is. Mr. BALLARD- As some of the gentlemen have not been here during the debate, I will state that the distribution of territory is the same as it now stands in the session laws of 1866. The question was then put on the third division of the amendment of Mr. Ballard to the amendment of Mr. E. Brooks to the second section reported by the committee, and it was declared carried. Mr. A. J. PARKER - I suppose an amendment is now in order. The CHAIRM~AN-The Chair is of opinion that it is. Mr. A. J. PARKER-I wish to offer an amendment which I think will secure all the advantages that have been hoped for from larger districts as the question has been discussed lere, and which will also secure a continuous representation in the Senate, one-half only going out of office every two years. And it will secure what I deem still more important, the representation of minorities. by providing tlht four Senators shall be elected in each of the eight districts to be apportioned by tle next Legislature, and that no elector shall vote for more tlha three candidates. This will be a means of representing miuorities throughout the entire State, and it will be tie first introduction of that mode of representation which has been recognized in any of our legislative bodies. It will answer the very purpose that many of us hoped to secure by voting for the single district system. and it will secure the representation of minorities much better than the single district system, because it secures them in every district of the State. I will read the substitute that I propose to offer for the second section: SEC. 2. The Legislature for 1868 shall divide the State into eight senate districts, to be numbered from one to eight inclusive; each district to contain, as nearly as may be, an equal number of inhabitants, excluding aliens. No county shall be divided except it shall contain a greater population than is necessary for one Senate district. There shall be thirty-two Senators. four to be elected in each senate district. The term of office shall be four years, except that the Senators chosen at the first election, in the first, third, fifth and seventh districts shall hold their offices for two years only. The first election shall take place at the general election in 1868, and no elector shall, either at the first or at any subsequent election, vote for more than three candidates. To carry out this system by which minorities are to be represented, you provide that no elector shall vote for more than three candidates. But it is indispensable that four should be chosen at that election. That is accomplished by having the elections take place at alternate periods in the different districts. In the first, third, fifth and seventl, they elect at first for two years which siniply puts the system in operation. After the first election, they always choose for four years, and in all cases ill all the districts they elect four candidates at every election. Iil voting for four Senators lno elector votes for more than three candidates. I believe this will accomplish the object in view by tlose who favor larger districts anid I believe it will also answer the wishes of tlose wlho have voted for sing'le districts, upon the principle that it securedl the representation of minorities. I voted for tle smaller districts for that reason, and I know of many others who voted for it for the same reason. Now, a wish has been expressed in this room and elsewhere in favor of havinrg minorities represented. One system has already been presented by tlie distinguisled delegate from Westclester [Mr. Greeley]. It is certainly well wortliy of examination. But it does not seem to me as practical as the one I offer. I propose one that is simple, and which the whole people can readily understanid, when this matter is submitted to them, which will admit of no frauds, and, which I believe will answer the object in view. I admit it does not secure an exact representation of minorities, but it secures a representation, to some extent, of minorities in every district of the State. In every district the minority will be represented by o~e-quarter of the Senators from that district -one of the four Senators. I, therefore, offer this amendment. Mr. E1VA RT'S —In the position in which the Committee now finds itself placed, Mr. Chairlman, I siall take great pleasure inl supporting the amendment of the gettleman from Albany [Mr. A. J. Parker], supposing thalt her.after any modification suggested as to a classitication of the senatorial districts, permitting two to be replaced every year instead of four every two years, and which will not infringe upon the principle of his arrangement at all, may be introduced and receive perhaps the assent of the committee and of lhe Convention. Tllis measure does not necessarily include tile proposition of the final adhesion of tile committee or certainly of the Convention, to this particular form of minority representation or even perhaps to any form of minority representation. For my own part, I have 787 always preferred that the details of the partition that it can elect but two Senators. Each strugof States into districts, should be left to the Leg- gles to get the second man. Each nominates two islature. That the gentleman's amendment pro- candidates in that district, and each divides its poses-and we remove from the present determi- vote. Suppose the district is composed of the nation of what we regard as a vital question two counties of Rensselaer and Albany, which between compound and small districts, that dis- are together. Each party will put up a canditurbing element which has controlled the vote of date, one in each county. In each county each the member from Richmond [Mr. E. Brooks] party will vote for the candidates of the party; against his views of the interest of the State. 1 but each will give the vote which the party in the hope, therefore, that we may proceed to vote with- county is entitled to give to the third man, to out much longer delay, as the whole subject has their local candidate; that is, they will duplicate been discussed on the amendment heretofore con- the vote for the second man. Each party in sidered. Rensselaer will vote for the Albany candidate, Mr. GREELEY-My objection to the amend- and will duplicate the Rensselaer candidate's ment just proposed by the gentleman from Albany name on the ballot. The result will be that the [Mr. A. J. Parker]. is this, that it utterly fails to party having 26,000 voters in the district will secure the end desired. Take a very simple case, have 39,000 votes for its two candidates, and the the city of New York. The vote there of one party having 24,000 voters will have 36,000 for party is more than two to one of the other. It is its two candidates. I say that it is simply imperfectly easy under that system for the one party possible, under the plan I submitted, that the mato elect every single member each time with jority in a given district should not elect a majormoral certainty. They could divide their votes so ity of the Senators, and it is all but impossias to give all four of their c andidates at least ten ble that they should elect any more than two. thousand majority over the highest opposing cai- There is but one possible district in this State didate. And so you will find it to be in the St. where it might be otherwise. That is, you Lawrence district, on the other hand, that the might carve a district out of the city of New republicans can elect every one of their four Sena- York. You might take the 4th, 6th, and 14th tots, in defiance of this regulation. You deny to the wards of that city, and add on some other people the right to vote for as many Senators as portions of the city, and perhaps make a disthey are to choose, and the party largely in the trict which would elect all the democratic majority will certainly manage to elect every one Senators; but if you did. so it would be because of their candidates for Senator. You accom- there was such an enormous majority that that plish nothing by your effort, except, possibly, majority could fairly be said to claim all the in very closely balanced districts. You simply Senators. By the plan I propose, it you look at decide that one party must have four votes it carefully, you will elect twenty-four republican to every three votes of the other party. and twenty-one democratic Senators so long as in order to carry the election; and it will be the the republicans shall have the majority they now case in two-thirds of the districts of the State, have of 15,000 voters in the State. The moment that one party or the other will have votes enough that majority shall change, you will have a demoto elect all the Senators notwithstanding this cratic majority of Senators. I do not wish the arrangement. Now, Mr. Chairman, the proposition party to which I belong to have any more votes which I submitted has this effect: if any party has in the Legislature than its proportionate vote of one voter where the other party has three-that the people, and when the people shall turn against is, if one-fourth of all the voters of that district it I then want the majority against it here, and my are of the minority party-that minority party can plan will give that result. Tile Legislature will certainly elect one Senator. Suppose there are of change when the people change as it ought to do. the majority in a certain town twenty thousand Some gentlemen has said that "minorities are now voters, and in the minority seven thousand voters- represented." No, no, Mr. Chairman, local mareeognizing that as an extreme case. Now, seven jorities sometimes partially balance each other; thousand voters triplicated make twenty-one thou- but there is now no representation of the minority. sand votes for one Senator. It is not possible And it has become so now that in Vermont, for twenty thousand voters to give three Sena- -Massachusetts and Maine the minority party has tors as imany votes as the minority can give no member of the Senate whatever, and but a their one Senator under my plan. But there very few in the lower House; although in Maine is no such result under this plan. By the the democratic vote is 41,600, yet the democratic scheme of the gentleman from Albany [Mr. party has not one Senator. I have no doubt it A. J. Parker] the majority can easily give is best for the State, and best even for the domievery one of their four Senators votes enough nant party in that State, that the minority party to beat the minority out of sight. [Laughter.] should have such a representation in the other Now, I desire the Convention, as I may not have House as its numerical strength entitles it to, and another opportunity, to give a few moments that for all purposes, it is best that there should thought to this topic of the representation of be that balance and equation of parties in the minorities. Some gentlemen have said here, that Legislature as will conform to the relative numuider the proposition I made, it would be per- bers of thle respective parties among the people. fectly feasible to let the minority of voters elect a I beg gentlemen to consider, also, how admirably majority of thie Senate. Let me show why that is the State divides into fifteen districts such as I not so. Say a district has 24,000 voters on one propose. Thle gentleman from Ontario [Mr. Mcside and 26,000 on the other, which is an extreme Donald] stated that he had carefully observed in case. Now, each party understands perfectly well the western part of the State that districts about equal in numrVers could easily be made. I have one must be able to see it. Then as regards his looked at the eastern end of the State. My plan own plan, it is very faulty, for lhe reason tiat it gives. about fifty-five thousand legal voters to each enables the minority to elect two while the major. of the fifteen districts, there being eight hundred ity can elect only one. That may be the result, and twenty-three thousand voters in the State. It' the two parties are nearly equal, and the 1n Kings county there is almost exactly that nunm- small party divides equally, they wil. get a larger ber, that is, fifty-eight thousand. You have two vote than the majority party would get if they districts in New York city, and a fraction, which, divided unequally. So the minority, by unequal with Queens, Suffolk and Richmond, make another division will get two and the majority only one. district. Of the island counties, New York, Long Mr. DUGANNEl-I recollect hearing once Ilanold and Staten Island make exactly four senate of a bold and skillful soldier who proposed to districts, electing twelve Senators, ot whom prob- ' represent the minority " by a very simple process. 1bJy four would be republicans and eight demo- He undertook, in fact, to defeat a large army by crats, possibly only three republicans, and the an exceedingly clever arrangement. lie said, 'I districts adapting themselves to that number. "will take ten men, good swordsmen, and chal'Whena you come to tile two present "lenge ten,f this army of a tlousaid on Mon. 4enate districts next above, Westchester, " day, kill them all. challenge teln more on TuesRockland and Putnam, and Dutcless ard Columbiia ' day, kill them all, arid so on until tliey are all you have just voters enouah to make a district.; killed." Tle scierme of the gentleman from Op, you can see through the State, how easily tle Westchester [Mr. Greeley], reminds me a gieat p.untiea, may be combined into districts of tlis deal of this brilliint military proposition to favor Wtxength, so as to give the people a representation miuorities. He has laid a very fine plan for tlio id., give districts of a convenient size, and yet minority and majority to follow. If they do so, lrge euoloh to answer the purposes of' the gen- all these results whichl lie builds upon, may be tiemen who wlant large districts. I beg gentlemen obtained; but, in my experience, I have aener. tp gonsider tlat there will be 250,000 ilnhabitants in ally found that majorities and minorities do g district-55.000 more voters in each senate dis- pretty much as tley please, and will do tict-mnore tlhan there are in eitler orf ive States sucll tlings as slhall promise to elect their.f this Union to-day, which I might name. Youl own tickets, and defeat tlhe opposition. Now, 4n. ot, combine Albanv arid St. Lawrence into one I would like to know how this system o' district but you cut this nlorthern territory in two minority representation is to be successful in disa8I(( have one part center on tlhe Hudson and the tricts where there is an alternation of the majorother will be that which is drained by northern ity and minority, from year to year-where, for waters running iuto the St. Lawrence. I firmly instance, the democratic and republican forces are believe that thle happy medium is struck by this pretty equally divided. I should like to know plan between large districts and small districts, which side will take upon itself the name and and that the people are all represented-all position of the minority for the coming year and parlies, all sections of thle State, and all tlle be content with only one candidate, while it people of every section. You now represent only allows the other party to have two representa4(Q,000 voters out of 750,000. By my plan every tives. It seems to me candidates are put in nornone of those 750,000 would be represented by ination in order to be elected and when a gentleA4ssemblymen and Senators of their choice. Not man accepts a nomination he intends or hopes, portion of the people, but the whole of the usually to be elected. Is he to consider limleqple from one end of the State to the other, self a majority candidate while lie takes his chanwould be represented. 1 entreat the corn- ces of being thrown out, throufgh the fact of mittee, therefore, to consider well this prob- some minority opponent having three votes cast lnm. I am very sure it will yet be adopted. But for him while he, being associated with two othdo not let us have a system which pro- ers upon a t:cket, can only command one vote? fesses to, represent minorities, but gives And how would the system work in the cityof rtnmr no representation. Under the plan I have New*York, where out of a total vote of 114,000 pr,opsed, I do not believe there would be one clie republican party last year cast barely 30,000 person in all this committee who could not go to votes? Is it not manifest that the coin the. polls. with the confident assurance that his bined democracy might 'agree to disagrtee" vo.te would elect some Senator or somie Assembly- in order to elect tlheir entire ticket. Possesman tjqiui inthe legislative counselsof the State. sing such an overplus of requisite votes, wlhat Mr. FIElLD-I am against the amendment of is to prevent tlre majority from igorilng thie tgetntlemran from Albany [Mr. A. J. Parker], but minority's claim altogleher? Wlly cannllot Mr. it is not the arithmetic of the gentleman from Fernanldo Wood present himself onie fine morlnigl Weqstchester [Mr. Greeley] that has brought to the sachems of T..lammany hall, and say "tcool0 me t t that. conclusion. I cannot understand let us counsel together. 1 and mv friends will bo how tlh gentleman, [Mr. Greeley] is going tle minority this time while you remain tlhe to make a bare majority, under this plan, majority, so we shall divide the representation qlete the whole four. If the majority candidate between us and leave tlhe republicans out in the gs, a, thousand votes, have not each of the others cold." Who will assert that such a bargain is not t9 get, a thousand and one votes in order to be possible, and who will maintain that political qlectd? Sq it is impossible for the majority to nmanagers of a certain stripe, would be to hliiLelect, all of the board unless they have more than minded to make such a bargain? But sir. I reject fqur'-fts. of the whole number of votes. That the whole theory of minority representation. I 4,pefietiy evident, and it strikes me that every believe the people intend that the majority shall 789 rule. Talk about the minority not being represented! faith, developed in State issues and State iit^MWhy, sir, a minority is represented by its dele- ures which know neither locality nor class. But gates whether they be republicans or whether I hold the civil or local representative, though he they be democrats. I dislike to hear this assump- be the same man, just as fast to his duty as a deltion of absolute partisanship which gentlemen are egate of the entire people of the district from which so ready to make in this Convention. In my he comes. The people of that district are his tnmamind, sil, there is a clear distinction between the ters and principals in regard to all local interests. political representative and the civil or local rep- The majority of that people will take care of resentative, although both characters may. be him and his personal interests. If a wrong be combined in the person elected to represent. The perpetrated by the majority of one year, I believi candidate for legislative office may, and should, in making that majority a minority of the lnert represent fully and taithfully the opinions and year, and thus correcting tlhe wlonz. A demomeasures of his party on great national and State cratic system presupposes this majority rule. It is questions. IBut I contend, sir, that, when elected, tlie only lever we have for uprooting and overlie is no longer partisan for his district or the throwing a corrupt and dlmi eeritng partisanship. interests of his district. He may be partisan, and It is the natural revolution of opinion, operating strictly partisan, upon the great issues wlhich like the healtllhful force of a thunderstorm. By it come up to agitate the whole people, on great and through it, the comnonwealth shall be kept State questions, which carry State policy or pure and strong. If we have a majority conhdefeat it. But for his own district, if he be a tinually ruling and the minority merely represented mere partisan, he is not worthy a place in the as a minority, we should be in a state of stagna. couincils of the State or nation. I deprecate the lion. Sir, we require tlese abrupt clianges; assumption or recognition of partisanship which we must have tlese uprisings of minorities to lies at the bottom of so much nmischief, and of so keep the majorities in order, and preserve a robust, much corruption in the Legislature. The people healthy commonwealth. Tllerefore, I consider all should hold their representatives strictly to tlese new schemes for the representationi of account to be true representatives of their minorities, fiom whatever source they come, aM towns and districts, whenever the local inter- imere obstructions, more poetical than practical. ests of those towns and districts require Mr. N. M. ALLEN-Mr. Chairmanrepresentation in the Legislature. I believe, Mr. FOLGERt —I move that the committee rft6 sir, that a measure vital to a township or rise, report progress and ask leave to set again. village, -one wviicli iunterests large numbers of the The question was put on the motion of Air. people of tlat district will not be unsafe in the Folger and it was declared carried, on a division, lialds of a political opponent who represents that by a vote of 69 to 37. local district as it ouglht to be represented, in Whereupon the committee arose, and the Pretei otlier words, honestly and intelligently. AWhy dent resumed tile chair in Convention. sllut.d I not trust a democrat as well as a Mr. FULLER from tle Committee of the Whole, republicaln if lie be an lionest man, representing reported that the committee had had under counmy district? If lie does not represent my dis- sideration tlhe report of the Committee on th6 trict truly, tle majority of tlhe people will ascer- Legislature, its Organization, etc., had made some taim tllit fct and will give hlim leave to stay at progress therein, but not having gone through home on another occasion. I believe, sir, tlha no therewith, had instructed their chairman to report matter:low strict or straight-out may be a mern- that fact to the Convention and ask leave to sit her of tile Legislature in his political opinions, lie again. must always, if lie be a faidlful man, regard the The PRESIDENT announced the questiaft interests of ]his locality as the business on whicli to be on grantinpg leave. lie is sent to tlie Legislature. It this bo not the Mr. GREELE~Y-I move that leate be gtaeted fuact what becomes of local or district repre- vith instructions to the Committee of tlle Whole sention? What virtue or siantticance is there to report to the Convention at one o'clock p. r. in the " representative of a district" if the man to-morrow. elected as such fails to represent such district, The PRESIDENT —The geitleman froal itestand the wants and claims of its people, without chester [Mr. Greeley], Will send hiM amtulndmenL distinction of party? I hold that the district to tile Secretary. member is the delegate of all the people who took Mr. E. BROOKS-I submit that tile fichm6d part in the election which returned him to a seat. ment of the genltlemarl is in tle nature olf a Fcislie is no mouthpiece or instrument of a mere acci- lution, that it arrroutts to that, aud mLttt li bVci' dental majority, or, it may be, only a plurality. under tlhe ritle. Once elected, hle becomesadepositary of tlie trust Tlie PRI(;SIDENT —Th Chalir holds tlht it t i of the people, or he becomes recreant to his trlust. withlin the proviLne of tirT6 Ctonel nt.en tO tnfki and no proper representative. If this is rnot so, suich instructioIns. then if a meriber could be chosen out of twenty Mir. \WEID - -I iov' that the Convetltflbfi or forty candidates by a plurality of only one or now adjou;n. two hundred votes, he must be the reprsentative Tlhe question Xwas put on the motoih b to i. of that fragment of the people of his district, in- Weed, aid it Wast declared lost. stead of all the people. I deny and reject all Mr. ALVORD-I trus`t etha We tA ot ha~v suOh aessumptions of partisan responsibility in a a repetition o' the same kind of procedure tlhat representative, and partisan responsibility only. we had a few days sinc when there waS up for I hold the politeal representative fast to his polit- consideration before this Convention the question ioaL faith) ad to the principles and policy of that of suffrage. If we are to continue thus in the 790 Committee of the Whole in the future to such a length, we shall be compelled by some action of the Convention to shorten up the time in which we can discuss questions. We can very well determine in the Convention that upon each separate section of any article submitted to us the Committee of the Whole shall, upon a certain time and hour stated, take a vote upon that section, and in that way, so far as the Committee of the Whole is concerned, we will enable it, at some definite period, to report to the Convention. But in taking a portion of this business into the Convention, by reason of having only gone through with a small portion of the report in Committee of the Whole, makes the Convention, for a portion of the time, for all practical purposes, a Committee of the Whole. I will act with the gentleman from Westchester [Mr. Greeley], or the other gentleman, on a proposition which shall arrange that the Committee of the Whole shall be instructed, at a certain time, to take into consideration the first section, at another hour the second section, another hour the third section, and thus fix a time when a vote shall be taken upon each, so that the whole matter will have been wholly gone over before it is brought before the Convention, and which will thus limit the time of debate, as it ought to be limited, to matters pertainlig to the subject and proposed by way of amendment in Committee of the Whole. By this means we shall put an end to our labors and arrive at a result. Mr. FOLGER-I move the previous question. The question was put on the motion of Mr. Folger for the previous question, and it was declared carried. Mr. GREELEY-1 call for the ayes and noes. Not a sufficient number seconding the call, the ayes and noes were not ordered. The question was put on the motion of Mr. Greeley, and it was declared lost. The question then recurred on granting leave, and it was declared carried. Mr. FOLGER-I move that the Convention do now adjourn. The question was put on the motion of Mr. Folger, and it was declared carried. So the Convention stood adjourned. WEDNESDAY, August 7, 1867. The Convention met pursuant to adjournment. Prayer was offered by the Rev. R. I. ROBIN. SON. The SECRETARY proceeded to read the Journal of yesterday, and there being no objection thereto, it was declared approved. Mr. ENDRESS presented the memorial of Mr. Ira Godfrey and one hundred and three others, of Lima, Livingston county, in favor of submitting to the people a separate clause of the Constitution prohibiting the sale of intoxicating liquors. Which was referred to the Committee on Adulterated Liquors. Mr. GREELEY presented the memorial of Dr. George I. Benedict and other citizens of the county of Kings, for the same object. Which took a like reference. Mr. STRATTON-I present a memorial fiftytwo feet in length, and signed by nine hundred and thirty-two citizens of the city of New York, ask. ing that the Legislature be prohibited from passing any law to prohibit the traffic in fermented liquors and wines, and asking that all laws regulating the sale, be uniform throughout the State. Which took the same reference. Mr. WAKERMAN presented the petition of George R. Low and one hundred and seventeen others, praying for the adoption of an article in the Constitution forbidding the manufacture and vending of intoxicating liquors as a beverage. Which took the same reference. Mr. GROSS presented memorials from citizens of Morrisania, Poughkeepsie, and New York, against prohibitive legislation and in favor of pass. ing uniform laws for the regulation of the traffic in fermented liquors and wines. Which took the same reference. Mr. CHURCH from the Committee on the Fi. nances of the State, etc., submitted a report, which the Secretary proceeded to read, as follows: The Committee on State Finances, etc., have had under consideration the subjects referred to them, and a majority of said committee respectfully report the following article, and recommend its adoption by the Convention: ARTICLE-. SEC. 1. The outstanding debts of the Stateand other liabilities for the payment of which the canal revenues are pledged by the terms of the Constitution of 1846, and the amendment of 1854, are the following on the 1st day of July, 1867: The old canal debt of 1846 (so called),.... $3,258,060 00 The general lund debt,.............. 5,642,62 22 The canal debt under amendment of 1854, 10,807,000 (0 The floating canal debt,.......... 1,700,00 00 Advances to the canal debt skinking fund and other canal purposes, by taxation since 1846, and simple interest at five per cent,........................ 18,007,289 68 Making an aggregate of................ $39,414,971 90 The debt of the State for which the canal revenues are not pledged or liable. is the bounty debt (so called) of........ 26,944,000 00 Besides which is the contingent debt of the State, of,.................. 218,000 00 ~ 2. The several debts specified in the preceding section, designated as the old canal debt of eighteen hundred and forty-six, the general fund debt, the canal debt under the amendment of eighteen hundred and fifty-four, and the floating canal debt, amounting in the aggregate to $21,407,682.22 on the first day of July, 1867, shall be paid as provided in the next section. ~ 3. After paying the expenses of collection, superintendence and ordinary repair, there shall be appropriated and set apart in each fiscal year, commencing on the first day of October, in the year one thousand eight hundred and sixty-seven, the whole of the remaining revenues of the State canals, as a sinking fund, to pay the interest as it falls due, and redeem the principal of the several debts specified in section two of this article, until the said several debts shall be fully paid or provided for; and the principal and income of said sinking fund, together with tle principal and income of the sinking funds now provided for the payment of said debts, which shall have accumulated on the first day of October, eighteen 791 hundrer and sixty-seven, shall be strictly applied to that purpose, and to no other purpose or object whatever. The said several debts shall be fully paid by the first day of October, 1878, and if in any fiscal year there shall not be contributed froln said revenues at least the sum of $2,418,000, the deficiency shall be supplied by taxation the nexl year, unless in one or Imore of the years before such. deticiency shall have occurred, there snall have been appropriated to said sinking tund over and above the said sum of $2,418,000, a surplus sufficient to make up said deficiency. The tax authorized to be levied to provide for the sinking fund to pay lie floating canal debt, is hereby suspended after the first day of October, 1867. ~ 4. After the debts specified in section two are fully paid or provided for, according to the provisions of section three, the remaining revenues of the canals, alter paying the said expenses of collection, superintendence and ordinary repairs, shall, in each fiscal year, be paid into the treasury of the State to pay the amount advanced for canal purposes by taxation, specified in the first section, and the interest thereon, until thle wliole amount so advanced, with interest at five per cent per annum, shall be fully paid, and until any amount hereafter advanced for canal debts or other canal purposes, with interest thereon at five per cent per annum, shall be fully paid. ~ 5. After complying with the provisions of the third and fourth sections of this article, and after paying said expenses of collection, superintendence and ordiinary repairs, the strplus revenues of the canals shall, ill each fiscal year, be disposed of' for thle improvelment of thle canals, or in such other manner as the Legislature may direct, but shall at no time be anticipated or pledged. ~ 6. All sums which shall be paid into the treasury under the provisions of section four of tlhis article, siall be appropriated and applied in each fiscal vear as follows, viz.: Until the debt specilied in the first section as the bounty debt, or the debt created in renewal thereof as hereiualter proviked, shall be paid or provided for, thle said sum or sutms shall be appropriated and set apart to the sinking lurid provided for the payment of said debt, or the said renlewal thereof; and the tax to supply said sinkitng find slall be corre.pondigly reduced. The Comptroller is hereby authorized to renew the said bolnty debt or arny part thereof, by extending the time of its payment to the first day of October, 1885, and to issue stock for that purpose, which lie may apply either in exchange tfr the outstanding stock, or by sale in the usual manner, and the application of the proceeds thereof to the purclhase of the out. standing stock. The stock so to be issued shall not bear interest to exceed seven per cent per annum, payable semi-annually, and shall be exchanged or negotiated on the best possible terms, and in no event at less than par, nor at a lower rate than the outstanding stock can be purchased for at the time tle sale or exchange shall be effected. The principal and interest ol the stock hereby authorized to be issued shall be secured by a sinking fund to be provided for in I accordance with the provisions of the fourteenth section of this article. After the said bo,;nty debt and the said renewal thereof sihall be paid or provided for, the sum or sums so paid into the treasury shall be appropriated toward the ordirnary and necessary expenses of the State government; and if in any year there slall be more than sufficient paid inlto the treasury fir liat purpose, the surplus may be disposed of by tlhe Legislature. ~ 7. The claims of the State against any incorporated company, to pay the interest and redeem the principal of the stock of tlhe State, loaned or advanced to such company, shall be fairly eutorced, and not released or comipromised, and the moneys arising from such claims slall be set apart aind applied to the payment of said stock, so loaned, or to repay the money wlich may be advanced to pay the same. ~ 8. Every contribution or advance to the canals or their debt, from any source other than their direct revenues, shall be repaid into the treasury, with interest, for thle use of the State out of the canal revenues, as soon as it can be done consistently with the just rights of the creditors holding the debts specified in section number two; and except to provide for the payment of the debts specified in section number two, no tax shall hereafter be imposed upon the people of this State for works of internal improvement or their debts umless authorized by;t vote of the people according to section fourteen of this article. ~ 9. The Legislature shall not sell, lease, or otherwise dispose of any of the canals of' the State; but they shall remain tile property of the State, and under its management forever. ~ 10. No moneys shall ever be paid out of the treasury of this State, or any of its fund., or any of the funds under its management, except in pursuance of an rappropriation by law, nor unless such payment be made within two years next after tie passage of such appropriation act; ard every such law nmaking a new appropriation, or contirnuittn or reviving an appropriation, slhall distinctly specify the sum appropriated and the objects to which it is to be applied, and it shall not be suficient for such law to refer to any other law to fix such sum. ~ 11. Neither the credit, money, or property of the State shall in any manner be given or loaned to or in aid of any individual, association, or corporation. ~ 12. The State may, to meet casual deficits or failures in revenues, or for unexpected expenses not provided for, temporarily contract debts; but such debts, direct and contingent, singly or in the aggregate, shall not at any time exceed one million of dollars, and the moneys arisitng from the loans creating such debts shall be applied to the purposes for which they were obtained, or to repay the debt so contracted, and to no other purpose whatever. ~ 13. In addition to the above limited power to contract debts, the State may contract debts to repel invasion, suppress insurrection, or defend the State in war; but thle money arising from tlle contracting of such debts shall be applied to the purpose for which it was raised, or to repay such lebts, and to no other purpose whatever. 792.~ 4. Except the debts specified in the twelfth article proposed have endeavored to accomplish and thirteenth sections of this article, no debts I the following leading objects: shall be hereafter contracted by or on behalf of I 1. To simplify the State finances so that every this State, unless such debt shall be authorized citizen of ordinary understanding will be able by a law for some single work or object to be dis- Ito comprehend from the article itself the financial tinetly specified therein; and such laws shall im- condition of the State and the arrangement made pose and provide for a collection of a direct to pay the debts, regulate the expenses, and disannual tax to pay, and sufficient to pay the inter- pose of the revenues. est on such debt as it falls due; and also to pay 2. To provide for the certain payment of the and discharge the principal of such debt within outstanding debts within a limited period, to fulfill eighteen years from the time of the contracting the obligations of the present Constitution and thereof. preserve perfectly the public faith. No such law shall take effect until it shall, at a 3. To prohibit the creation of debts in future Feneral election, have been submitted to the peo- for any purpose or object whatever, except for ple, and have received a majority of all the votes protection against invasion or insurrection or depast for and against it at such election. fense in war, unless the same shall receive the On the final passage of such bill in either house affirmative sanction of the people. of the Legislature, the question shall be taken 4. To restrict the Legislature in the appropriaby ayes and noes, to be duly entered on the tion of public moneys to the necessary purposes Journals thereof, and shall be: "Shall this bill of a proper administration of the State governpass, and ought the same to receive the sanction ment —to reduce taxation and thus relieve the of the people?" The Legislature may, at any labor and industry of the State, as far as practi. time after the approval of such law by the peo- cable, from the excessive burdens now resting ple, if no debt shall have been contracted in upon them. pursuance thereof, repeal the same, and may at The outstanding debts, for which any time, by law, forbid the contracting of any the canal revenues are pledged, further debts under such law; but the tax im- amount to,................ 21,407,682 22 posed by such act, in proportion to the debt and There will be in the sinking funds liability which may have been contracted in on the 1st of October, 1867, pursuance of such law, shall remain in force and applicable to the payment of be irrepealable and be annually collected, until said debts, the sum of,....... 2,755,595 00 the proceeds thereof shall have made the pro- -'_____. ' = - vision hereinbefore specified to pay and discharge The payment of these debts is first provided the interest and principal of such debt and foi out of the revenues of the canals, by section liability. 3, of the proposed article, in substantial comFll. The money arising from any loan, or stock, ance with the provisions of the present Constitucreating such debt or liability, shall be applied to tion, but varying somewhat in the detail of ac. the work or object specified in the act authorizing complishing the object. Instead of separate sinksuch debt or liability, or for the repayment of such ing funds for each debt constituting the foregoing debt or liability, and for no other purpose what- amount, the committee have provided a single ever. No such law shall be submitted to be voted sinking fund for the payment of all of said debts pn witlin three months after its passage, or at into which the whole net revenues of the canal any general election when any other law, or any are to be paid until the whole debts are fully disbill, or any amendment to the Constitution shall charged, which will be in the year 1878, estimatbe submitted to be voted for or against. ing the net revenues at $2,418,000, the average 15. Every law which imposes, continues or for the past ten years; and that is the period revives a tax, shall distinctly state the tax and when the said debts would be paid by the terms the object to which it is to be applied; and it shall of the present Constitution upon the same estinot be sufficient to refer to any other law to fix mate of revenues. tuch tax or object. Said section imperatively requires payment of ~ 16. No deticiency loan shall be made by or these debts by the year 1878, and provides for on'behalf of the State for a longer period than is supplying deficiencies by taxation if the revenues necessary to enable the sinking fund, provided for fall short of the annual estimates. The advanta. its payment, to accumulate an amount sufficient to ges of a consolidated sinking fund are, that it dislharge it; and in no case shall such loan be enables the State officers to apply any money in made for more than six years. the fund to the payment of any of the indebted17. The capitol of the State is hereby perma- ness as it matures, and thus obviate the iacoau neutly located at the city of Albany, but the venience of accumulating money in one ilaking rebuilding of a new capitol shall not be undertaken fund when there is a deficiency in another. within ten years from the adoption of this Consti- It also prevents the renewal of debts when they tution, nor shall any money be hereafter appropri- might be paid, and saves to the State the loss of ated for that object ~until the expiration of that two per cent interest upon such accumulatioa. period. It will be impossible if the proposed third seotion Mr. CHURCH - I am obliged to ask the indul- is adopted, to extend, by renewal or otherwise, ence of the Convention to permit me to read the any portion of the foregoing indebtedness beyond xlanations of the report myself. 1878, while if the revenues exceed the estimates, Mr:. CHURCH proceeded to read the explana- they will be provided for at an earlier period, ad tins, as follows:the revenues released from the obligation for The ommitteee on State Finances, etc., in the their payment. The fourth section-provides for the repayment A proposition has been made td the committee into the treasury of advances drawn from the to authorize the creation of an additional canal people by taxation since 1846, and used in pa4- debt of $12,000,000, to be used in commencing a ment of canal debts, and in the construction and new enlargement of the present enlarged canals, improvement of the public works. by enlarging the locks thereon, and make such These advances were made under the following debt a charge upon the revenues of the canals pledge contained in the Constitution of 1846, for prior to the payment of any portion of the adtheir reimbursement: "Every contribution or vances before referred to. advance to the canals, or their debt, from any It is claimed that the expenditure of this money any source other than direct revenues, shall, with will largely increase the capacity of the canals, quarterly interest at the rates then current, be cheapen transportation, and secure a largely inrepaid into the treasury for the use of the State creased amount of business. out of the canal revenues, as soon as it can be The committee have considered this proposition, done consistently with the just rights of the cred- together with such reasons as have been offered itors holding the said canal debt." in favor of it, and have arrived at the conclusion The amount of principal of these ad- that it would be unwise to adopt it, at this time, vanlce is,.............................. $14,395.767 97 as a part of the organic law of the State. Simple interest at 5 per cent............. 3,(1o 521 71 The committee do not deem it necessary, nor Total.......................... $18.007,289 within the authority conferred by the Convention, to elaborate their views upon this question, and Although the requirement in the Constitution they shall content themselves with brief and genis, that these advances shall be repaid with quar- eral reasons for opposing the proposed scheme of terly interest at the 'then current rates," the debt and expenditure. committee have deemed it advisable to add sim- The present enlargement of the canals is but ple interest only, and at the lowest rate at which just completed. The State has been engaged in the State has borrowed any considerable sum of the work more than thirty years, and has exmoney. From the earliest period in the history pended upon the work $39,425,334.32. A waterof the public works, it has been deemed unjust way of seventy by seven, with expensive and and improper to impose taxation upon the people permanent structures has been secured, capable for their construction or improvement. All parties of transporting boats of 250 tons burden. It is have regarded the public works as a trust in the claimed that $12,000,000 will accomplish the prohands of the State, to be made self-sustaining on posed work, but according to all the past history the one hand, and not a means of profit to be of the State in constructing public works, the used for any than their own purposes, on expenditure will double that sum. the other. Advances therefore, from other It is proposed to undertake this work when sources than their direct revenues, have always materials and labor are extravagantly high, and been deemed a legitimate charge upon their rev- when the expense of it will be double that of enues, to be returned as soon as practicable. ordinary times. It is assumed that the demand The Convention of 1846, by the provisions of for further expenditure will cease when the locks article 7, in the present Consti;ution, intended to are enlarged, but enlarged locks may necessitate an make a full settlement between the canals and the enlarged water-way and a change of other strucgeneral filnd of the State for advances made prior tures, involving tens of millions more of debt and to that time, which was ratified by the people, expenditure. and has since been regarded by all officers of the Under these circumstances, and in view of the government and the people as a finality upon that financial conditon of the State and country, the subject, and then, having provided for the pay- committee believe such a project ought not to be rment of the debts of the State in a shorter entertained without the existence of the clearest period than the revenues would be likely to pay, necessity and the most pressing reasons, and they the Convention incorporated into the Constitu- are satisfied that neither necessity, nor sound tion the foregoing pledge. policy, whletler considered with reference to the When the outstanding debts are paid, the time canals themselves and their business, or the interwill have arrived when this obligation is to be ests of the people at large, will justify or even fulfilled, and the committee deem it but an act of excuse its adoption at the present time. imperative justice, demanded alike by established The capacity of the Erie canal to do business policy and good faith, and by constitutional obli- has never been reached, and scarcely approached. gation imposed and exacted by the people them- Thills is true with the canal in alleged bad::ir selves, that definite and certain provision be made and with only the most ordinary force and fac ea for the return of these sums to the treasury, from for passing through the locks where obstruo,n the revenues of the canals, for the use of the are likely to occur. people of the State. If these sums had not been According to an estimate of the pres thus advanced, the canal debts would have been Engineer, the full capacity of thb Erie correspondingly larger than they now are, and not be reached before 1882, estimating a but for the pledge in question the taxes would increase of business equal to the past never have been tolerated. years. The sixth section provides for a definite disposi.- n 186?, the State Engineer, lon. V tion of all sums, which may be returned to the Richmond, arrived at the same conclusiona treasury to p:.y tlese advances, in a manner that calculated the capacity of the canal suffici will reduce taxation upon the people to the extent transport to tide water 5,220,00 tons, and of the sums so returned. testimony of all the engineers in t emp 100 ' ' 794 the State has been entirely uniform since this cost of transportation can be more certainly subject has been agitated, and there is now, and ftected, by paying the existing canal debts, and will be for an indefinite period in future, abundant reducing the tolls to such a nominal amount as capacity in the Erie canal to transport all the will be necessary to keep the canals in good repair, property which will be brought to it; and as far than by piling up the debts, and rendering it as the committee have been able to ascertain, this necessary to coutinue or increase these large is corroborated by those who are engaged in the exactions. practical business of navigating the canals. In round numbers, the tolls amount to about Some complaint has been made by the latter, one-third of the price of transportation on the that the canals are not in good repair, canals, and if they could be removed, the canals but they have never experienced any want of would be placed in a condition for successful comcapacity. petition, superior to that to be attained in any The Auditor of the Canal Department in sev- other manner. Freedom from debt, and comparaeral reports to the Legislature, has demonstrated tive freedom from tolls, constitute a policy which that tile Erie canal is capable of transporting the State should permanently adopt in reference 4,000,000 of tons each way, estimating the longest to the canals, and from which it should never have period for passing a lock which has ever been departed. Since the commencement of the claimed, while the greatest quantity ever trans- enlargement, the surplus revenue of the canals ported one way was 2,916.094 tons, and that was has amounted to $61,307,917.07, while the in 1862, and a little less in 1863, in both of which whole amount expended upon all the canals has years the business was largely increased in conse- been only $52, 610,551.41, showing that sufficient quence of the war and the blockade of the Missis- revenues have been received to have accomplished sippi and other western and southern routes of all that has been tone-paid off the debt of six transit. millions existing at the commencement, and nearBiit the Auditor says in his report of 1866: ly, if not quite, repaid all advances which had "We know the fact by experiment, that a boat been made, and then have left the canals comcan be passed through a lock in good order and paratively free from debt, and the commerce passwell attended in a considerable less time than five ing over it free from taxation. minutes," and then shows upon that basis of five The debt policy has absorbed more than oneminutes, that the canal is capable of transporting half of all the net revenues, in the payment of 6,393,600 tons each way, which is considerably interest on loans, to say nothing of the loss of more than double the quantity brought to tide large sums necessarily consequent upon the hurwater in the exceptional year of 1862. ried expenditure of large amounts of money withIn speaking of those who claim that the capac- in short periods of time, and the occasional depreity of the canal is overtaxed, the Auditor says: ciation of thecredit of the State. "When the subject is examined, disregarding It should be borne in mind in this connection, local interests and other considerations always that the financial article presented by the corn involved in the expenditure of public moneys, we mittee is so arranged that the outstanding canal shall find these speculations are mere chimeras, debts will be paid in eleven years, and if the and that these fears will dissipate as idle wind." revenues equal the average of the past seven Every member of the Convention can easily exam- years, they will be paid in nine years, and then if ine for himself the basis upon which these calcu- it should be desirable to reduce tolls so as to lations have been made, and the committee do cheapen transportation, or for any other reason, it not deem it necessary to incorporate the details will be in the power of the people, through the into their report. Legislature, to do so. and thus prolong the time If the trifling expense of increasing the attend- for the payment of the advances into the ance upon the locks will add so much to the facili- treasury. On the other hand, if the tolls are ties of navigation, the committee assume that this continued, the advances will be rapidly discharged, course will be adopted whenever a necessity for it and the revenues freed from all char e or iicumnshall occur.' The committee are entirely satisfied, brance. Either course may be made to result in that if temporary embarrassments have occurred a free channel of communication for all the comat times when business was most crowded, they merce seeking transit through the State to the are attributable more to the want of thorough sea-board. management, than any want of capacity. If the necessity for this measure was more Norcan the policy be justified on the ground pressing than ycur committee believe it to be, and of cpening transportation. The tonnage on if the policy and utility of it were more apparent, the anals is now transported for less than one. your committee would not consent to violate tho halfithe price of the tonnage on the railroads of contstitutional pledge for the repayment of the th, and if price alone determined the route, advances before mentioned, without the clearest is would supersede all other means of evidence that the people demand it. So far from tation. But the committee believe that this being the case, every indication of public ease of indebtedness would tend to per- sentiment invites and demands relief from the present prices of transportation, if it did burdens of taxation. crease them. The increase of debt insures Besides, the Constitution will contain ample tinuance, if not the increase, of tolls upon provisions for the accomplishment of the proposed ty transported, and these tolls are a tax object, if it shall hereafter become necessary, or the commerce passing over the canals and for any reason desirable. to the cs of transportation. The proposed article enables the people at any oee are persuaded that a reduced time to incur a debt for any purpose, and the Con 795 stitution itself can easily be amended, as it was in 1854. But the committee believe that the people ought to insist, and that they will insist upon the reimnbursement of the advances drawn from them by taxation. The financial condition of the State, and the excessive taxation now being imposed upon the people furnish to the minds of the committee conclusive reasons, if there were no other, against the creation of additional indebtedness. This condition, and the amount of taxes upon the people of the State, will be briefly stated. The outstanding debts of the State amount to,......................... $43,351,682 22 The debts of the cities, villages, counties, and towns,...................... 85,000,000 00 Making a total of State indebtedness of $133,351, 682 22 The proportion of the national debt belolnging to this State to pay is not less than,.................... 500,000,000 00 Making a total of.....................$633,361,682 22 Saying nothing of the unascertained national indebtedness, which high authority has placed at the same amount. The highest assessed valuation of all the prop. erty in the State is $1,639,432,615; from which it will be seen that this State is permanently indebted to considerably more than one-third of the assessed value of the property therein. The annual taxation is very much larger than even the permanent debt would indicate. Direct taxation by the State............... $12, 800, 000 Direct taxation by counties and towns.... 32,000,000 Direct taxation by cities and villages, estimated,......................... 18,000,000 $62, 800, 000 INDIRECT TAXES. The whole amount of Internal Revenue received by the United States Government during the fiscal year ending 1st July, 1866, was $310,906,984, of which this State paid in fact onefourth, but say one-fifth,............ $62,181, 398 80 The amount collected by the tariff was nearly $200,000,000, of which the people of this State must have paid, as consumers, one-fifth, amounting in the aggregate to $40,000,000 in gold, which is equal in currency to,....... 56,000, 000 00 Making an aggregate of annual taxation of,............................$180,181,398 00 which is more than eleven per cent on the assessed valuation of property, and equals a tax of $45 upon every man, woman and child in the State, and more than $200 upon every voter. If this excessive annual taxation should be capitalized, it would require the sum of $3,000,000,000 at six per cent to pay it, which is $1,400,000,000 more than the assessed value of the whole property. If, therefore, the present amount of taxation is to be regarded as permanent, and cannot be materially reduced, the unwelcome truth must be acknowledged, that the property of the State is mortgaged to more than the amount of its fiull value. It is estimated that three and one-half per cent upon the value of property, is a liberal allowance for the net profits of the people. This brief statement shows that taxation las reached a point largely beyond the entire net earnings of the whole people, and is absorbing the 0 ri ---- -- ---- ~capital with fearfui rapidity. No argument is needed to establish the fact that such an extent of taxation cannot be permanently endured. Itis no longer a matter of choice but of ability. The people ]have borne these exactions with unexanpled patriotism and patience, but they have a riglit to demand, and your committee believe do demand from this Convention, some alleviation from present, and protection against future burdens. The proposed measure will prevent, to the extent of the debt created and the interest thereon the application of the sums to be returned to the treasury for the advances to the canals, in reducinr taxation. The policy adopted in the proposed article commends itself to tile committee on the ground, also, of prudence and safety, as a protection against any unforeseen misfortune or disaster affecting the business interests of the country. No one could have anticipated that the short space of seven years would have changed the condition of the people of New York from that of comparative freedom from taxation to the most overburdened and heavily taxed people in the civilized world. The last war increased the business of our canals by blockading other channels of communication; the next war may blockade the canals themselves. Pestilence or famine may come upon us, withering the very sources of our prosperity, and the only path to financial safety lies in the direction of prudence and rigid economy. The question for New York is, whether she will endeavor to check the spirit of extravagance and lavish prodigality, so prevalent in public and private affairs, by rigid financial provisions, which will insure the practice of economy and the observance of plighited public faith; or whether the great power of her influence shall be used to swell the force of that advancing tide, which threatens to submerge public and private credit, and bankrupt every business interest of the country. The committee have retained all the restrictions upon the Legislature, with reference to appropriating public money, contained in the present Constitution, and have added some others. They propose to prohibit the Legislature from imposing any tax upon the people for works of internal improvement. The committee believe that the time has arrived for the enforcement, by constitutional provisions, of a principle which has always been recognized in this State. The present canals of the State can be kept in repair from their revenues, and if extensive improvments or new works shall be hereafter authorid, they should be constructed with current revenues, or by the creation of debts contracted in pursuance of the Constitution. The committee have also introduced a provi sion prohibiting the Legislature from giving or loaning the money or property of the:tftte. This provision will be, it is believeil ftt salutary, and will result in a large saving t l people annually. It involves a general prip applicable to numerous cases which have hlt fore occurred, absorbing large sums of 3'-r_::X:~ 796 and to others hereafter occurring, which, without charged, and to hold representatives to a rigid this provision, would be deemed proper objects accountability for their conduct. When this shall for State aid or bounty. Nothing is more dan- be done, there will be no occasion to complain of gerous or more corrupting than the practice corrupt or even improper legislation. which has lately prevailed of appropriating money Aside from canal revenues, the State has no for the benefit of railroad corporations, and tax- permanent revenues, except the inconsiderable ing the people to supply the means. sums derived from auction and salt duties, and It can be justified on no principle, and is usually these are regarded of doubtful propriety —one made successful by a combination ofinfluences in being a tax upon the most common necessary of favor of different projects, without much regard life, and the other upon trade and commerce. to the merits of any. The State has received but little more than. The committee have felt some embarrassment 100,000 annually, from both these sources, on an on account of the necessary effect of this provi- average for the past twenty years. All other sion, in cutting off all approprations for charitable means are obtained by direct taxation upon the purposes, except to such institutions as the State property of the State. itself owns and controls. The expenses of the State government have inBut the practice of taxing the whole people of creased from $750,000 in 1840, to $3,500,000 in the State, for the support of local charities, oper- 1866- an increase far beyond any public recesates unequally, and cannot, as your committee sity, and attributable only to that spirit of extravbelieve, find a justification in ary sound principle agance not to say corruption, pervading the of pub.ic policy. administration of public affairs. The committee have therefore concluded to sub- If the article proposed by the committee shall mit the provision, prohibiting all appropriations be adopted, the committee estimate that direct of this character, and leave to the judgment of taxation will be reduced at once, about six millions the Convention, the question whether any modii- of dollars annually. cation shall be made in the respects referred to, or The committee have not considered the subject not. of the proper principles of assessment and taxaThe committee have considered the question, tion, which was referred to them, and they also which has been for some time agitated, of rebuild- desire to present a provision on the subject of ing the capitol. The last Legislature appropriated claims by individuals against the State, and beg the sum of $250,000 for that purpose, and limited leave to continue their labors upon these subjects. the expense to four millions of dollars. The com- All of which is respectfully submitted. mittee are satisfied, however, that this sum will S. E. CHURCIH, fall far short of accomplishing the object. and that Chair'maon, an annual tax of one million of dollars at least for GEORGE OPDYDE, ten years will be required. Althoutgh the present AUGUSTUS SCHELL, structure is inadequate, in some respects, to WM. C. BROWN, accommodate the growing wants of the State, yet H. A. NEL60IN, it is sufficiently ample and commodious for present J. I1ARDENBURGH, public purposes; and in view of the high price of -IlEsRY D. BARTO. every element involved in its structure, and to save an overburdened people from additional tax- I approve of the article and report, except the ation, the committee have concluded to recommend provision suspending the rebuildimlg of tile capithe suspension of the work for ten years, by tol. ERASTUS CORNIN-G. which time the pubilc debts will either be paid or so materially reduced as not to be oppressive. We concur in the article reported by the cornThe committee have, as well to prevent future mittee, with a single reservation. It deals with controversy as ir justice to the people of Albany the canals on the assumption that their present who have contributed to this object, incorporated capacity is adequate, and that their enlargement a provision permanently locating the capitol attihe will not be necessary for many years, if ever. city of Albany. Of the correctness of that assumption we ente.The committee cannot refrain from remarking tain a doubt. If the facts, as they are now in in connection with the subject of restrictions upon course of full and authentic ascertainment under legislative power, that they have found it ex- a resolution of the Convention, shall not justify tremely difficult to draw the line between unalter- the assumption on which the reported article id able prohibitions and that discretion which must based, we shall desire its modification to mreet of necessity be reposed in the Legislature. They any ascertained necessity, near or more remote, have selected classes of appropriations which they for tlh enlargeneent of the canals. believedmight be entirely cut off, and yet within JOSHUA M. TAN COTT, the remaining powers improper and extravagant AUGUSTUS FRANK, appropriations may be made, not within the corn- B. P. CARPENTER, petenCe of constitutional provisions to prevent, * A. F. ALLEN. without impairing the usefulness of the legislative ALBANY, August ', 1867. body. Tb ly effectual remedy for perfect fidelity in Mr. CHURCH —I ought to state that the gei:th^: re esentative, must be applied by the people tieman from Erie [Mr. Hatch] dmisents from the yes. report of the committee; and also that the gentle1 their duty to inform themselves of the man from Monroe [Mr. Clarke] dcsirea to tnake atl aii wide public trusts have been dis- additional report. 797 The PRESIDENT - The report will be referred In the view of the undersigned, the canals ol' to the Committee of the Whole and be printed. the State, as they have hitherto formed, in the Mr. HATCHI-I desire to submit a minority future should form, in connection with tle western report from the committee, which I will ask the lakes and with the Hudson, a most important link Secretary to reNd: in the most practicable line across the whole conThe SECRETARY proceeded to read the report, tinent. In the view of the undersigned, the as follows: enlarg(emert of the capacity of the trunk canal, The undersigned, approving many of the posi- and the improvement of those lateral canals, the tions taken by a majority of the committee, revenues and local traffic of which would hererespectfully presents the following as a statement af;er pay for the improvement, is so entirely in of some of tile considerations which have pre- consonance with the long tried policy of the vented entire concurrence in the conclusions of State, and is absolutely demanded by the necessithe majority. ties of the immediate future and even of the present, that it would be worse than temerity to REPORT. adopt the fundamental change recommended by The amendment recommended in the majority re- the majority of the committee. port applies the revenues of the canals, after de- Entertaining these views, the undersigned canductilng the cost of superintendence and ordinary not, witl ally regard to duty, avoid some expresrepairs, for a period of above eleven years (until sito, brief as tlle magnitude of the considerations October 1. 1887) to tlhe payment of the canat and will admit, of the reasons which compel dissent general fund debts il tlhe aggregaie $21,417,681.22: from tlhe majority report, and some allusion to tlle and after that period appropriates fur tile general history of the past which can best teach wisdom purposes of our State government the same net for the future. revenue to the payment of tile $18,007,287.(8, The construction of the Erie canal was cornthe sum of the advances to the canals since 1846, meiced in 1817. It was open for transportation and the interest thereupon-a sum arrived at, of property in 1825. From the very cornhowever, iiponi the questionable basis adopted by mencemenlt, tlhe national character of the work the majority of the committee. twas recognized, and it was foreseen that a navigaThe policy thus recommenlded is the total oppo- ble communication between lake Erie and the site of that which has existed ever since the cmial AtlI~tic ocean woulld promote, to use language system of tile State had its inception. It involves tlieP employed by the Legislature, "agriculture, an entire cessation of that gradual enlargement and nmanuftcctures and commerce between the States." improvement of the canals which hitherto has been Tne experience of almost half a century has fully the general policy of the State, which has built up approved the statesmanship which originally the canals, made them a splendid financial success, adopted our canal policy, which was to improve the atid poured through the State the great channels niatural advantages of our geographical positionof iniernal trade, accompanied with incalculable to pass throulgh our State the tlen undeveloped consequent advantages. To the undersigned, it commerce of the Arest, and gradually to improve is plain that such a change is worse than retro- the facilities afforded to a degree requisite to meet gressive. It is experimental without progress. It the requirements of its growth. substitutes for a system most successfully tried The sagacity and foresight of the early friends through every vicissitude of financial and politi- of the Erie canal enabled them to see clearly in cal chainge, an untried poli. y. It substitutes for the future the necessity which would require this a system of growth and such development as has commercial highway. It was a gigantic enterenabled our canals to almost keep pace with the prise, nnd only those who have studied tle hisrequirements of commerce, a system of inactivity, tory of the times are able fully to appreciate its most uwmasterly, so to speak, for the reason that magnitude. Once completed, it immediately gave cessation of imp-vvement for so long a period as promise of future success, and comparatively that contemplated by the report of the majorityof little difficulty was found in securing its enlargethe committee, in this age of rapid progress,of shift ment. So plain was the necessity, and so palpaand fluctuation in the channels and eddies of ble the benefits which it conferred, that the work trade, of very necessity implies failure to meet was ptshed forward with enthusiasm. Of course, the increasing requirements of the times, involves the patronage attending so large all expenditure decay, and it well may be the utter failure of the of public money was accompanied by the usual great scheme of the State canals. In this great aminunt of corruption, from which no government century of progress,tlhe undersigned cannot regard has ever yet been exempted, for no pure governthat as an enlightened policy which shall, for nient hlas ever yet existed on this earth, except eleven years,6top in its mid career of success the in the dreams of such visionaries as Sir Thomas great scheme which has so long been thle pride of Moore, in his Utopia. the State, and thus afford the only possible oppor- Unable to oppose the popular tide of sentiment tuuity for successful rivalry to contending routes which had set in favor of speedy enlargement, and opposing views. localities distant from the trunk line sought to take In the view of the undersigned, tile greatest advantage of it for selfish ends, and the lateral questions of State or even national policy areto be canal system was engrafted upon the original found in the unprecedented growth of the inland policy. From this date arose most of the difficulties commerce of the country; and in consideration with which the Erie canal has since had to onof the comparative advantages, disadvantages, tend. Canals of doubtful utility were projected capacities and claims of the various actual and and forced upon the acceptance of the State as possible lines of transit across the continent. concessions to local interest and to silence oppo 798 sition. They thus became burdens upon the trunk canal; and when the lErie canal was no longer able to bear these burdens, taxation followed, and with it has arisen an unjustifiable and indiscriminating clamor against all our canals. Tile policy thus adopted, and partially carried out, loaded the State with an enormous debt, and diverted the revenues of the Erie canal to the support of the unremnllerative branches. The people have lost sight of this fact, and have justilied an opposition to the whole system by the expense and taxation chargeable solely to the lateral canals. The wise development of our original canal policy is now threatened with destruction from a misapprehension of facts or an interested antagonism. Every State has undoubted right to indemnify itself for the money it has advanced and the risk it has run in making any canal or road, by levying sufficient tolls on the articles of which it has thus facilitated the transit. It is impossible to imagine any more equitable method of levying a tax. The owner of the property thus passing to market profits by the transaction. But there is an obvious and important distinction between works belonging to individuals and those of which the State is the owner. In private companies carrying goods or making canals or roads, there is a right to make whatever profit can be made on freight or tolls. The principle of competition ordinarily checks undue extravagance or extortion in their charges. But in such a case as that of the Erie canal, the State has within its own limits virtually no competitor of the kind. If it levies tolls for profit, either to defray the expenses of the State or to be expended for any other purpose than those of the canal itself; tribute is in reality exacted from the people of other States, on the same principle as if tolls were levied on property carried through its domains by private companies. Such a State exacts money by the force of its geographical position. No one will deny that whatever any single State has a right to do in this way, others have an equal right to do toward it. The Constitution of the United States wisely provides for freedom of commerce upon all the rivers and lakes But as our country became more generally cultivated and more densely peopled, many lines of railroad and canal have been made, and the navigation of many rivers has been improved or completed by links of railroad or canal. A very large amount of the transit of property and passengers depends upon the connections made by the enterprise and labor of man. The question annually assumes proportions of greater magnitude. It becomes evident that unless some general rule or principle of action is adopted, results may ensue detrimental in the highest degree to that free commerce between the States on which the welfare of all so much depends. Before the adoption of the Federal Constitution and in colonial times, embarrassments and restrictions upon internal trade similar in effect to these existed. The evil was of so great magnitude as to form a controlling reason for the adoption of a ~national Constitution, by which commerce between the States might be regulated and controlled. The whole spirit of the Constitution, as well as State and national policy, required that invidious measures should not be adopted in any State. and that each State, in this view most especially, should regard itself as but a part of the great whole-a part of a great nation, the prosperity and liarmonious development of whole and part, in a most important measure, dependent upon substantial freedom in commercial communication of each with all the others. The unprecedented development of this inland commerce can be briefly stated. No longer ago than 1825, the trade of the lakes was transacted in a few schooners of only thirty or forty tons. The arrivals and departures from Buffalo were only sixty-four. Last year the arrivals and departures were 14,000; the value of property passing through Buffalo, $256,000,000. If we regard alone the statistics of the census reports as to the population, productions and resources of Ohio, Indiana, Illinois, Missouri, Iowa, Minnesota, Wisconsin and Michigan, we are led to surprising results. In 1850, their population was only 5,403,595. Ten years later, in 1860, it had advanced to 8,955,962, having increased at the rate of 65.74 per cent in the brief space of ten years. At the same rate of progression they will, in 1870, have a population of 14,833,401; in 1880, it will be 24,584,878; and at the approaching termination of the present centutury it will amount to 66,788,208. So little have their resources been hitherto developed that, unless interrupted by the devastations of war, we may reasonably expect the present ratio of increase to be continued until the latest period here indicated. They have an area of 284,992,640 acres, of which little more than one-sixth has yet been brought under cultivation. In 1850, they produced 310,384,775 bushels of grain, including 43,842,038 bushels of wheat, and 222,208,502 of corn. In 1860, this product had been increased to 557,551,811 bushels, including 89,293,603 bushels of wheat, and 392,289,751 of corn. These eight food-producing States yielded more than 550,000,000 of cereals in 1859, a crop which was nearly one-third deficient in comparison with those of 1860 and 1861. The mind scarcely realizes the magnitude of quantities thus represented in abstract figures. Beyond the chief region now known as the great grain producing States, but including Minnesota, Dacotah, and the Red river country, is a vast territory, well watered, possessing a sufficient supply of timber, of exceedingly fertile soil, peculiarly adapted to the production of wheat, yielding, for many years in succession, crops of such abundance as are scarcely credible to the inhabitants of less favored regions. It is stated on competent authority that an area of not less than the whole of the United States east of the Mississippi exists west of the 98th meridian and above the 433 parallel. This region is now almost wholly unoccupied, but is perfectly adapted to the fullest occupation by civilized man. Spring opens about the same time along the vast expanse of plains stretching from St. Paul's to the Mackenzie river, a distance as great as that from St. Paul's to the southern extremity of the long peninsula of Florida, as far as from 799 the most southerly point in the territory of the must be on the great lakes, so as to appropriate United States to Augusta, the central port in the benefits offered by cheap navigation on the Maine. way further east. The capacity of these vast regions when brought Already the extension of telegraphic facilities into practical connection with market and seaport, in China is the sure forerunner of internal railway by rail, canal, or other artificial improvement, to communication which will revolutionize the increase the bulk of the cereal products of the society of that country, and enormously increase country can be best illustrated by referring to a its foreign trade. single instance of the kind among the many stated Some idea may be formed of the magnitude of in the report made last winter by Gen. Warren to the trade we shall acquire with those Congress, on tlie rivers and the proposed improve- oriental nations from the fact that Japan ment of the Upper Mississippi. lie reports that alone has a population computed to be 35,by constructing a canal thirteen miles long Can- 000,000. IIindostan contains 160,000,000 of non river can be connected with the Minnesota human beings, and the Chinese empire, with its river, and a navigable channel thus established enormous territory, and 367,000,000 of people, which would open to settlement and cultivation contains a greater amount of inhabitants and an area of land of 844,800 acres, two-thirds of wealth than are elsewhere united under any one which would be tillable, which would produce government. And to this may be added those annually 20.000,000 bushels of grain-a produ3t- populous regions, full of the most migratory races iveness which, according to another estimate in in Asia, between China and the Amoor river, the same report adopted by him, deducting 4,000,- where American enterprise has already penetrat000 bushels for consumption at the places of ed, and from which Genghis Khan and Tamerlane growth, would leave 16,000,000 for exportation to descended with their immense armies to conquer our eastern market. the world. A region is above described many times larger But the most important consideration remains than that tributary to the commerce of Chicago, to be noticed-the addition to our national wealth,. which will send its products to the eastern mar- and the rapid development of our inland commerce kets through ports near the western end of Lake which must be produced by the introduction into Superior, their chief transit being by way of the our country of tlhe exhaustless supply of the lalakes and by the Erie canal, through the State boring element of Asia. The immigration of the and to the city of New York, using the canal to Mongolian races has already commenced. Thouthe utmost possible capacity of its enlargement. sands are already working in the fields and mines. Railways are now being constructed'from St. Paul of our Pacific States and territories. The extent to the head of Lake Superior and to Pembina, on of this immigration can only be estimated by conthe borders of the British possessions. The nu- sidering the swarming millions which this merous chains of lakes capable of being connect- ancient hive of mankind has sent over tile ed by short lines of canal with Lakes Winnepeg face of the earth. They are moving in and Superior are a remarkable feature in the for- an easterly direction as our Pacific railroads are mation of this country. Five railroads, at least, constructed, and when these railways are cotnpleare projected, and will probably soon be com- ted, connecting with all our natural and artificial pleted, connecting the great lines of traffic and lines of transportation running to the Atlaatic, transit in the interior with the head of Lake who can doubt but what this immigration will Superior. move on, filling up our vast unoccupied area of the It is not only with these regions that we shall interior, their industry developing our inland com. soon have an extensive commerce. The Northern merce with a rapidity never known except in our and Central Pacific railroads, as well as cheaper own wonderful history. No differcnce in climate means of transit by water, or partly by rail and can prevent any such immigration, as an examipartly by water, will connect us with the Pacific nation of the isothermal lines, traced from conticoast. The incalculable value and rapid develop- nent to continent by careful observations, made by ment of the rich milnes of gold and silver and the most scientific men, will show. Pekin, San other metals, in the Rocky Mountains, extending Francisco and New York, well to the northward nearly to the Pacific Ocean, and from north to in tleir respective countries, are of about the same south throughout the entire continent, promote temperature or on the same isothermal line, with unprecedented rapidity the settlement of each about the fortieth degree of latitude. New regions many hundreds of miles beyond those Orleans and Canton are in the same isothermal known within a few rears as the "Far West." line, well to the southward; Canton being, howBeyond all these is tlie Pacific Ocean itself. ever, some eight degrees further to the south than already traversed by steamers from San Francisco New Orleans. Acclimation in the respective to the vast and poputlors regions of the Orient, countries upon the same isothermal line will newhose trade lhas always been and is to-day the cessarily be easy, and no difficulty in the nature great desideratum of the European nations. of tliings can exist in the development of our vast It is a well known law of trade that it seeks natural advantages in all that development which the cheapest avenues of transportation to its results in the greatest social, State. and national centers, insurance and interest on capital covering prosperity, through the employment of the milrisks, and time, being elements of cost. This lions which the growth of our means of transit consideration must bring over our Pacific rail- will afford. Adam Smith, in his inquiry into the roads the trade of India, China, Japan, and the nature and causes of national wealth, finds the soadjacent regions, and lead to the further conclu- lutiou of the economic problem in the "annual sion that the eastern termination of these roads labor of every nation," and the product of labor, 800 The increase of national wealth to be accomplished nage to tide-water over 3,390,399. It is also a through the labors of nations thus to be won and well known fact that when this amount of tonnage added to the immeasurable natural advantages is pressed upon the Erie canal tbr transit, it ere afforded through undeveloped territory, stretching ates detentions, increases price of freight, and thlrough so many degrees of latitude, iar tran- large portions of western commerce are diverted scending even the conceptions of man. History into cleaper and speedier rival channels of transcan afford no approach to its parallel, for no other portation. No one could estimate the loss of tonnation has ever possessed a tithe of such unde- nage at such times to the Erie canal less than veloped resource, with such opportunity for its half a million or more. The forthcoming testimony development. Nor upon any limited scale can taken by the Canal committee in relation to the tlhe past even hint at the possibilities of a future capacity of tlhe Erie canal, will confirm these statehere indicated. An undeveloped empire invites ments if anything more is required. In order the eo;-operation of millions, eager for employment, to retain the western trade to the Erie canal, we and invites that co-operation through means must accommodate it with a more ample and known only to the modern day - through the cheaper transit. The tables of the statistics of instrumentality of steam, and all the great invenr- the tonnage of the Erie canal, show tlat in tions and improvements which so facilitate every decade this tonnage has been doubled; modern progress. and ii the present capacity of the Erie canal, as is In estimating our inland commerce and transit, claimed by some. is now adequate, are we not imwe must. soon include the great overland trade peratively called upon to make some provision for and. travel between Europe and Asia. At New increase, to meet the demands of the fututre? The York the various products of all these regions will population and productions of the west, and the meet shipping from the eastern ports of the tonnage of the Erie canal, as has already been Atlantic, and the multiform products of the shown, have doubled in every decade for the last machinery of Europe, and of the industry and twenty years. No one can doubt but what this ingenuity of her people, as well as of our own, ratio of progress will be continued in tle future, will inreturnbe diffused throughout our continent with a proportionate increase of revenues from and into Asia. the Erie canal, without we abandon our past wise The central position of this continent, midway canal policy. The necessity of the enlargement, between Europe,nd Asia, makes our territory and the mieans tlrough which it can be accoinnot only the highway for our own trade, but the plished by the application of the revenues of the great thoroughfare for the world, and at no dis- lKrie canal, have been so fully and so recently set tant.time our metropolitan center will become the forth and recommended in Governor Fenton's city of the world's commerce. message, which is sustained in other oticial doeuThe ability of the Erie canal to meet the re- ments from the Comptroller, Auditor, Canal quirements of this vast and growing inland com- Commissioners and State Engineer,, that it merce can be best ascertained by statirg itsi does not seem necessary to add to them. assumed maximum capacity for downward frteigllt, If their views are correct, the cost of 4,000,000 tons. To pass this large tonnage a boat transportation would be reduced, by a further enmust go through the Alexander lock (tle recog- largement of the Erie canal, one-half. There is nized standard of tonnage of tle Erie canal), every i no doubt that the increased traffic which would ten minutes during every day and hour of the season be invited to tle Erie canal would enable the of navigation, irrespective of breats or detentions. State to reduce the tolls, in a few years, one-half, The annual tonnage of the Erie canal, from this and still leave an increasing surplus every year to and. other States, for the last decade, is as fol- pay off the present canal debt, with the additional lows: debt to be paid from the revenues for immediate improvement; and then, if it must be so, pay....back to thle State the taxes which the people have: paid for our unremunerative lateral canals-the - bad investments of the State made to promote the YlEAR..^ i interests of political parties or the ambitious 1; 3 schemes of politicians. '1| The Erie and Champlain canals have paid into ( 4 E-i the treasury the sum of $192,455,779.57, leaving.. --- --.. a balance to their credit of profit and interest, 18i5,............... 1,092,876 327,839 1,420,715 above the cost of construction and maintenance, 15............. 1,212,550 374,580 1,587,13 and all other expenses and charges, of $23,108,1857..-...... 918,998 19, 20 1 17199es an c es 1858............. 1,273, 099 22:3,588 1,496,697 326.01. 1859,.............,36,4634 414,619 1,451,333 Add to the above debt of the Champlain canal,,... 1,896,975 319,084 2,276,061 aS appears by the Auditor's reply to an inquiry by 1861............. 2,158,425 291,184 2449609 182,.-........ 2594,837 322,257 2,917,094 the committee, $2 943,089.92, and this would make 1868... - 2,279,252 368,437 2,647, 89 the Erie canal a contributor to the State treasury 84......... 1,97,136 239,498 2,1468,34 from its surplus after paying for cost of construe1865,.... 1,90t3,642 173,538 2,077,180 tion and all other charges, $26,651,415.93. The inquiry naturally arises who paid these millions If the local or internal traffic of the State is of tolls? An examination of the amount of the added to the through downward tonnage, the tonnage on the Erie canal for the last decade will bo.ve amounts are largely increased. It is ascer- show that they were mostly paid by the people of teid that in 1862, this item increased the ton. tho Western States for the transportation of their INDEX. ABOLISHMENT OF COURT OF APPEALS, Resolution in reference to, 233. ABOLISHMENT OF OFFICE OF SUPERINTENDENT OF PUBLIC INSTRUCTION, Resolution in reference to, 193. ABOLISHMENT OF OFFICES, Resolution in reference to, 217, 351. ABOLISHMENT OF SCHOOL COMMISSIONER, Petition in reference to, 895. ABSENTEES, Resolution in reference to, 412. Resolution in reference to pay of, 2779. Resolution requesting information from Comptroller in reference to compensation of, 2357. Resolution requesting Secretary to notify to attend, 3415, 3416. Resolution requesting to resign their seats, 2815. ACCUSED PERSONS. Resolution in reference to testimony of, 135, 149. ACTIVE MILITIA, Resolution of, inquiry to committee on militia and military officers in reference to, 145. ADDRESS OF PRESIDENT, On taking the chair, 19. At close of proceedings of Convention, 3950. ADDRESS TO PEOPLE, SHOWING CHANGES IN CONSTITUTION, Resolution to appoint select committee to prepare, 3777, 3865. Report from committee on, 3916. ADJOURNMENT, Debate in reference to, 187, 2655. ADJOURNMENT TO SARATOGA, Resolution in reference to, 25, 161, 358. ADJOURNMENT, FINAL, OF CONVENTION, Resolution in reference to, 647, 673, 3283, ADJOURNMENTS OF LEGISLATURE, Amendment of Mr. Hitchcock in reference to, 3594. Amendment of Mr. Ketcham in reference to, 881. Amendment of Mr. Van Campen in refer. ence to, 3594. Resolution of instruction to committee on revision to amend article on organization of Legislature in reference to, 3594. Resolution in reference to, 266, 412, 680, 1919, 1951, 2058, 2098, 2263, 2528, 2529, 2567, 2657, 265S, 2659, 3003, 3788. ADULTERATION AND SALE OF INTOXICATING LIQUORS, Committee appointed on, 142. Committee on, resolution to obtain information from, 641, 643. Debate on report of committee on, 3265 to 3297. Debate on report of committee on revision on article, 3666 to 3672. Report from committee on, 2274. Resolution to appoint committee on, 12, 793. Resolution to reconsider motion reconsidering vote rejecting report on, 3624. AGAN, FRANK, Appointed messenger, 29. ALBANY, Resolution tendering thanks of Convention to mayor andauthorities of, 2660. Resolution of thanks to mayor and common council of, 3874, 3913. ALDERMEN, BOARDS OF, Remarks of Mr. Develin on, 3140. ALIENISM AFFECTING TITLE TO REAL ESTATE, Remarks of Mr. Livingston on, 3655 " Mr. Rumsey on, 3556. Resolution of instruction to committee on revision to amend article on preamble and bill of rights in reference to, 3555. ALIENS, EQUAL RIGHTS OF, TO HOLD REAL ESTATE, Remarks of Mr. Alvord on, 3258. 3891 1 INDEX. ALENS, EC.- Continued Remarks of Mr. Gould on, 3259. Mr. M. I. Townsend on, 3259. (" Mr. Verplanck on, 3259. " Mr. Wales on, 3257. Resolution of instruction to committee on revision to amend article on organization of the Legislature in reference to, 1195. ALLEN, AUGUSTUS F., A delegate from the'thirty-second senatorial district, 978, 996, 1903. Appointed member of committee on finances of State, 95. Minority report from committee on finance, by, 1679. Oath of office taken by, 18. Petition against abrogating board of regents of university, presented by, 1679, 2019. Petition against extending right of suffrage to Indians, presented by, 3239. Petition in reference to prohibiting donations to sectarian institutions, presented by, 665. Remarks of, on joint report of committee on finances and canals, 1760, 1888,1900. Remarks on resolution to appoint committee to report mode of submission of amendments to Constitution, 395. Remarks of, on taxation, 3489. Resolution of inquiry to Comptroller in reference to common school fund, 138, 160. LLEN, CORNELIUS L., A delegate from the twelfth senatorial district, 186, 234, 747, 2885, 3352, 3720. Appointed member of the committee on the Governor, Lieutenant-Governor, etc., 95. Oath of office taken by, 18. Petition against abolishing office of regents of university, presented by, 2443. Petition in favor of abolishing office of regents of university, presented by, 1361. Petition in reference to prohibiting donatioms to sectarian institutions, presented by, 416. Petitions in reference to support of common schools, presented by, 2356. Remarks of, on adjournment, 188. Remarks of, on report of committee on education, 2839, 2884. Remarks by, on report of committee on Governor and Lieutenant-Governor, etc., 884, 895, 1o09, 1115, 1116, 1124. Remarks of, on report of committee on judiciary, 2176, 2450, 2592, 2599, 2602. Remarks of, on report of committee on official corruption, 3343, 3363. Remarks of, on report of committee on revision on article on Governor, Lieutenant-Governor, etc., 6113. Remarks of, on report of committee on revision on article on preamble and bill of rights, 3543. Remarks of, on report of committee on revision on article on town and county officers, 3658. Remarks of, on resolution to instruct committee on revision to amend article on judiciary, 2971, 3004. Report from committee on Governor, Lieutenant-Governor, etc., presented by, 666. Resolution of inquiry in reference to powers and duties of county courts, by, 100. Resolution of instruction to committee on revision to amend article on Governor, Lieutenant-Governor, etc., in reference to salary of Governor, 3612, 3619. Resolution of instruction to committee on revision to amend article on judiciary in reference to surrogate, 2971, 3004. Resolution of instruction to committee on revision to amend article on town and county officers in reference to supervisors, 3658. Supplementary report from committee on Governor, Lieutenant-Governor, in reference to veto power, presented by, 668. ALLEN, NORMAN M., A delegate from the twenty-second senatorial district, 3446. Appointed member of committee on counties, towns, etc., 96. Oath of office taken by, 18. Remonstrance against abolishing regents of university, presented by, 1679. ALVORD, THOMAS G., A delegate from the twenty-second senatorial district, 57, 59, 109, 123, 148,153, 191, 413, 598, 612, 720, 721, 729, 739, 744, 830, 848, 998, 1034, 1286, 1345, 1382, 1606, 1607, 1723, 1738, 1739, 1760, 1767, 1779, 1791, 1787, 1798,1799, 1863, 1895, 1951, 1979, 1990, 2051, 2054, 2087, 2088, 2091, 2151. 2158, 2281, 2345, 2356, INDEX. 2391, 2488, 2687, 2755, 2765, 2801,2816, 2837, 2901, 2965, 3084, 3090, 3091, 3158, 3163, 3170, 3173, 3174, 3180, 3204, 3225, 3232, 3283, 3384, 3409, 3411, 3428, 3432, 3439, 3455, 3456, 3461, 3478, 3526, 3527, 3532, 3533, 3535, 3537, 3550, 3554, 3561, 3572, 3586, 3595, 3598, 3602, 3604, 3605, 3618, 3621, 3623, 3629, 3655, 3656, 3688, 3684, 3609, 3743, 3748, 3749, 3752, 3758, 3772, 3789, 8828, 3858, 3875, 3919. Appointed member of committee on canals, 95. Appointed member of committee on cities, etc., 95. Appointed member of committee on revision, 565. Motion for call of Convention, made by, 412. Notice to reconsider resolution in reference to expunging certain proceedings of Convention, given by, 882. Oath of office taken by, 18. Petition against abolishing office of regents of university, presented by, 1771, 1779. Petition in reference to prohibiting donations to sectarian institutions, presented by, 350. Petition in reference to prohibiting the sale of intoxicating liquors, presented by, 445. Remarks of, in reference to adjournment, 163, 187, 1912, 2657. Remarks of. in reference to amending journal, 2490. Remarks of, in reference to death of Hon. L. Harris Hiscock, 26. Remarks of, in reference to death of Hon. David L. Seymour, 1974. Remarks of, in reference to employment of clerks to committees, 945. Remarks of, in reference to final adjournment of Convention, 3412, 3414. Remarks of, in reference to granting leaves of absence, 1863. Remarks of, in reference to incongruity in article on Secretary of State, etc., 3907, 3909. Remarks of, in reference to postponement of consideration of report of finance committee, 1977. Remarks of, in reference to publication of debates, 106, 108. Remarks of, in reference to State aid to railroads, 3465, 3480. iii Remarks of, on appeal from decision of Chair, 3829, 3830. Remarks of, on call of Convention, 413. Remarks of, on consideration of report of committee on rules, 45, 69. Remarks of, on finances of State, 3501, 3517, 3519. Remarks of, on joint report of committee on finances and on canals, 1407, 1409, 1424, 1436, 1728, 1783, 1821, 1889, 1992, 2261, 2341, 2355. 1412, 1425; 1437, 1742, 1790, 1843, 1895, 1999, 2304, 2344, 1415, 1431, 1438, 1750, 1791, 1861, 1904, 2017, 2310, 2346, 1417, 1421, 1433, 1434, 1442, 1721, 1758, 1760, 1800, 1804, 1865, 1882, 1906, 1936, 2240, 2244, 2311, 2320, 2347, 2350, 1423, 1435, 1722, 1763, 1820, 1883, 1938, 2254, 2322, 2352, Remarks of, on motion for call of Convention, 716, 718, 722, 738, 741, 742, 744, 746. Remarks of, on motion to reconsider vote adopting article on organization of Legislature, 3457, 3866. Remarks of, on motion to refer reports of committees on finances and on canals to same committee of the whole, 1210. 1212, 1214. Remarks of, on postponement of consideration of report of committee on powers and duties of Legislature, 1290. Remarks of, on report of committee on amendments to and submission of Constitution. 3885, 3897. Remarks of, on report of committee on Attorney-General, etc., 1282, 1286. Remarks of, on report of committee on canals, 2020, 2021, 2027, 2028, 2029, 2035, 2035, 2036, 2039, 2043, 2044, 2045, 2050, 2051, 2052, 2055, 2063, 2064, 2070, 2071, 2072, 2073, 2084, 2092, 2093. Remarks of, on report of committee on charities, etc., 2734, 2743. Remarks of, on report of committee on cities, 2981, 2982, 2983, 2988, 3082, 3085, 3166, 3169, 3207. Remarks of, on report of committee on contingent expenses, in reference to furnishing stationery to reporters, 629. Remarks of, on report of committee on contingent expenses, in reference to compen. sation for publishing debates, 3868. INDEX. ALVORD, THOMAS G.-Continued. Remarks of, on report of committee on counties, towns, etc., 1137. Remarks of, on joint report of committee on currency, banking, etc., and corporations other than municipal, 1014, 1020, 1026, 1031, 1080, 1093. Remarks of. on report of committee on education, 2821, 2833, 2838, 2841, 2849, 2850, 2865, 2871, 2875, 2876, 2890, 2923, 2925. Remarks of, on report of committee on future amendments and revision of Constitution, 2805, 2806. Remarks of, on report of committee on Governor, Lieut.-Governor, etc., 1111, 1121. Remarks of, on report of committee on judiciary, 2438, 2552. 2554, 2576, 2577, 2708. Remarks of, on report of committee on official corruption, 3308, 3336 -Remarks of, on report of committee on organization of Legislature, etc., 664, 785, 878. Remarks of, on report of committee on powers and duties of Legislature, 1294, 1346, 1355, 1367, 1370, 1381, 1383, 2103, 2119, 2120, 2764, 2775, 2776, 2779, 2787, 2788, 2793, 2799. Remarks of, on report of committee on practice of medicine, 3454. Remarks of, on report of committee on preamble and bill of rights, 3235, 3249, 3258. Remarks of, on report of committee on relations of State to Indian tribes, 3438. Remarks of, on report of committee on revision on article on education, 3807. Remarks of, on report of committee on revision on article on finance, 3701, 3742, 3746, 3751, 3761, 3832. Remarks of, on report of committee on revision on article on Governor, Lieut.Governor, etc., 3613, 3615, 3616, 3620. Remarks of, on report of committee on revision, on article on militia of State, 3695. Remarks of, on report of committee on revision, on article on organization of Legislature, etc., 3589, 3611. Remarks of, on report of committee on revision, on article on preamble and bill of rights, 3530. Remarks of, on report of committee on revision, on article on salt springs of State, 3779, 3782, 3786. Remarks of, on report of committee on.revision, on article on Secretary of State, Comptroller, etc., 3638, 3640, 3641, 3647. Remarks of, on report of committee on revision, on article on town and county officers, 3655, 3660. Remarks of, on report of committee on sale of intoxicating liquors, 3291. Remarks of, on report of committee on salt springs of State, 3380, 3381, 3382, 3383, 3385, 3386, 3388, 3389, 3390, 3394. Remarks cf, on report of committee on State prisons, etc., 3214, 3227, 3231. Remarks of, on report of committee on suffrage, 564, 576. 582, 594, 601, 606, 607, 615. Remarks of, on report of commfittee on town and county officers, etc., 934, 965, 998, 999, 1002. Remarks of, on resolution calling for in. formation in reference to canals, 39. Remarks of, on resolution in reference to abolishing committee of whole, 1194, 1195. Remarks of, on resolution in reference to adjournment, 2263, 2264. Remarks of, on resolution in reference to closing debate on report of committee on organization of Legislature, 818. Remarks of, on resolution in reference to mode of drawing for seats, 2691. Remarks of, on resolution in reference to obtaining hall for Convention, 2444, 2479, 2480. Remarks of, on rule in reference to previous question, 635. Remarks of, on resolution in reference to sessions of Convention, 288, 1780. Remarks of, on resolution instructing committee on revision to amend article on organization of Legislature, 1195. Remarks of, on resolution of inquiry in reference to canals, 22. Remarks of, on resolution on debate on report of committees on finances and canals, 1565. V INDEX. Remarks of, on taxation, 3487, 3488, 3497. Remarks of. on rule requiring a majority of delegates to amend Constitution, 215. Remarks of, on resolution to amend section of article on organizaton of Legislature, etc., 1013. Remarks of, on resolution to appoint committee to report mode of submission of amendments to Constitution, 394, 402. Remarks of, on resolution to postpone action in Convention on article on State finances, 1949. Resolution in reference to consideration of reports of committee on revision, 3527. Resolution in reference to final adjournment of Convention, 3283, 3891, 3927. Resolution in reference to final report of committee on revision, 3283, 3327. Resolution in reference to index of journal and documents, 3865. Resolution in reference to printing extra copies of debates, 3875. Resolution in reference to printing report of committee on judiciary, 1314. Resolution in reference to printing revised work of committee on revision, 2624. Resolutions in reference to signing Constitution, 3283, 3327, 3891, 3927. Resolution of instruction to committee on revision, to amend article on militia of State, in reference to exemption from militia, 3688. Resolution of instruction to committee on revision, to amend article on Secretary of State, Comptroller, etc., in reference to statute of limitations, 3644, 3645. AMENDMENTS, OF MR.. A. F. ALLEN, In reference to improvement of canals, 1757. Iu reference to powers and duties of supervisors, 979. In reference to taxation 1900, 1923, 2266, 2272, 3757. OF MR. C. L. ALLEN, In reference to compensation of Governor, 3612. In reference to county judge, 2592. In reference to jurisdiction of county court, 2592. In reference to compensation of Lieut.Governor 3619. In reference to powers and duties of supervisors, 3658 OF MR. ALVORD, In reference to absentees, 883. In reference to abolishing office of superintendent of public instruction, 2841. In reference to canal auditor, 2356. In reference to canal commissioners, 2057. In reference to canal tolls, 2032. In reference to closing debate on report of committee on right of suffrage, 353. In reference to construction of canal bridges by State. 2086, 2090, 2356. In reference to county, town and village aid to corporations, 1137. In reference to court of claims, 1345,2773. In reference to disposition of canal revenues, 1738, 1758, 1770, 2239, 2240. In reference to education, 287. In reference to election of city officers, 3158. In reference to eligibility to office, 606. In reference to enlargement of canals, 3501. In reference to erection of new capitol, 1883, 1895. In reference to escheat, 1382. In reference to exchange of proceedings with other Conventions, 123. In reference to excusing members from voting, 45. In reference to exemption from service in militia, 3688. In reference to formation of corporations, 1020. In reference to future amendments to Constitution, 2805. In reference to improvement of canals, 2243. In reference to investment of educational funds, 2838. In reference to location of State prison, 3233. In reference to meeting of Convention in New York, 2528. In reference to mode of submission of Constitution, 410. In reference to passage of bills, 1294. In reference to powers and duties of supervisors, 942. In reference to power of Legislature to alter tax levy, 3166. In reference to private property taken for public use, 3248. INDEX. AMENDMENTS-OF MR. ALVORD-Continued. In reference to provision for publication of laws, 2791. In reference to registrars of wills, 2633. In reference to registry law, 601. In reference to removal of managers of State prisons, 3231. In reference to rights of aliens, 3258. In reference to rights of people of the State, 3559. In reference to sale of liquor, 2150. In reference to sale of salt springs of State, 3377. In reference to signing bills by Governor, 1111. In reference to solicitor of claims, 2774. In reference to State aid to corporations, 2017. In reference to State board of education, 2903. In reference to statute of limitations, 2755, 3644, 3645. In reference to street railroads, 1381. In reference to superintendent of public works, 2054. In reference to system of police, 3230. In reference to taxation, 2304, 2310, 3759. In reference to term of office and compensation of members of State board of education, 2865, 2870. In reference to term of office of senators, 872. In reference to time of completion of registry of elections, 3584. In reference to time of introduction of bills, 1294. In reference to weighing or inspecting merchandize, 2785. Providing that Secretary of State shall be superintendent of public instruction, 2857. OF MR. ANDREWS, In reference to bounty debt, 2337. In reference to disfranchisement, 550. In reference to disposition of canal revenues, 1727. In reference to formation of corporations, 1022. In reference to powers and duties of supervisors, 953. In reference to qualifications for voting, 47 9. In reference to registry law, 600. In reference to reviewal by judges of their own decisions, 3713. i In reference to submitting appointment of judiciary to the people, 2544. In reference to superior court and court of common pleas of New York, 3720. In reference to town and county officers, 923. OF MR. ARCHER, In reference to formation of corporations, 1056. OF MR. AXTELL, In reference to appointment of superintendent of State prisons, 3817. In reference to compensation of managers of State prisons, 3229. In reference to county judge, 2675. In reference to disfranchisement, 519, 562, 566. In reference to jurisdiction of county courts, 2675. In reference to laws for ascertaining right of citizens to vote, 3580. In reference to oath of office, 609. In reference to powers and duties of Governor, 3618. In reference to State aid to corporations, 2253. OF MR. BAKER, In reference to court of appeals and judges thereof, 2167. In reference to county judge, 2609. In reference to court of claims, 2761. In reference to excusing members from voting, 44. In reference to jurisdiction of county courts, 2609. In reference to supreme court and judges thereof, 2539, 2540. 2649. In reference to time of introduction of bills, 1301. To resolution of inquiry in reference to charitable donations, 185. To rule 7, in reference to excusing members from voting, 44. OF MR. BALLARD, In reference to abolishment of office of State Engineer and Surveyor, 1286. In reference to appointment of reporter of supreme court, 2630. In reference to auditing or allowingprivate claims, 1319. In reference to commissioners of appeals, 2641. In reference to court of appeals and judges thereof, 2383. INDEX In reference to courts of record, 2634. In reference to election of judges, 2636. In reference to national guard reserve, 1216. In reference to provision for publication of laws, 2630. In reference to senatorial districts, 654. In reference to town and county officers, 1004. OF MR. BARKER, In reference to assembly districts, 866. In reference to census enumeration, 847. In reference to commissioners of appeals, 2643. In reference to disfranchisement, 527. In reference to elections, 606. In reference to formation of corporations, 1100, 1101. In reference to powers and duties of supervisors, 961, 992. In reference to registry law, 577. In reference to reviewal by judges of their own decisions, 2434. In reference to supreme court and judges thereof, 2648. In reference to tenure of office of certain judicial officers, 2632. In reference to town and county officers, 903. In reference to town and county officers whose election is not provided for by Constitution, 928. In reference to resolution of inquiry of Mr. Harris to clerk of court of appeals, 137. OF MR. BARNARD, In reference to powers and duties of super. visors, 958. OF MR. BARTO, In reference to free schools, 3814. In reference to future Constitutional Conventions, 2810. In reference to gain or loss of residence in respect to the right to vote, 570. In reference to national guard reserve, 1216. In reference to payment of State debt in coin, 1883, 1898, 2337. In reference to registry law, 580. In reference to taxation, 2336. In reference to taxation for school pur. poses, 2908, 2916. In reference to tenure of office of judges, 2636. vii In reference to time of introduction of bills,: 1371. OF MR. BEADLE, In reference to compensation of members of Legislature, 3591. In reference to formation of corporations, 1018, 3524. Id reference to individual liability of cor. porators, 1089. In reference to powers and duties of Governor, 3614, 3618. OF MR. BEALS, In reference to free schools, 3803. OF MR. BECKWITH, In reference to auditing or allowing private claims, 1322. In reference to common councils of cities, 3180. In reference to court of appeals and judges thereof, 2190. In reference to court of claims, 1322. In reference to deduction of salary of members of Legislature for non-attendance, 3605. In reference to existing statutes relating to bribery, 3335. In reference to powers and duties of supervisors, 977, 3660. In reference to State aid to corporations, 3476. In reference to State Engineer and Surveyor, 1280, 3632. In reference to taxation, 3496. To resolution of inquiry in reference to canals, 159. OF MR. BELL, In reference to county, town and village aid to'corporations, 1137. In reference to disposition of canal revenues, 1738, 2238. In reference to duty on salt, 3782. In reference to finances and canals, 61, 67. In reference to formation of corporations, 1014, 1032, 1077. In reference to local public charities, 2738. In reference to managers of State prisons, 3223. In reference to manner of submission of Constitution, 3922. In reference to right to take fish in international waters, 3261. In reference to salt springs, 92, 173, 175. viii V111 INDEX. AMENDMENTS-OF MR. BELL-Continued. In reference to sessions of Legislature, 1289. In reference to superintendent of public works, 3634. In reference to taxation for internal improvements, 3676. In reference to time of introduction of bills, 1296. To preamble, 3234. OF MR. BERGEN, In reference to assembly districts, 3589. In reference to debate on report of committees on finances and canals, 1515. In reference to erection of new capitol, 1892. In reference to powers and duties of supervisors, 3519. In reference to right to vote at schooldistrict elections, 3577. In reference to street railroads, 1379, 2128, 2781, 2801. In reference to superintendent of public works, 2038. OF MR. BICEFORD, In reference to assembly districts, 862. In reference to canal auditor, 2346. In reference to canal tolls, 2034, 2344. In reference to claims of State against incorporated companies, 1799, 2244. In reference to commissioners of appeals, 2641. In reference to construction of canal bridges by State, 2063, 2088, 2355. In reference to county clerk, 2626. In reference to county, town and village aid to corporations, 1169. In reference to county treasurers, 1180. In reference to disfranchieement, 208. In reference to disposition of canal revenues, 1734, 1799, 2238. In reference to divorces and lotteries, 3556. In reference to eligibility to Legislature, 650, 868. In reference to eligibility to office, 608. In reference to eligibility to office of judges of court of appeals and supreme court, 2436. In reference to exemption from service in militia, 1219, 1220. In reference to female suffrage, 127. In reference to final adjournment of Legislature, 1305. In reference to granting pardons, 1209. In reference to improvement of canals, 2243. In reference to Indian reservations, 3444. In reference to laws relating to taxation, 1882. In reference to national guards, 1225, 1227. In reference to payment of expenses of prosecution of bribery cases, 3354, 3822. In reference to payment of State appropriations, 1840, 2245.. In reference to powers and duties of supervisors, 3521. In reference to qualifications for voting, 489, 540. In reference to registry law, 580. In reference to senatorial districts, 843. In reference to signing bills by Governor, 1131. In reference to signing of bills by presiding officer, 1303. In reference to State aid to corporations, 1990, 1992. In reference to street railroads, 1385. In reference to superintendent of public works, 2053. In reference to taxation, 1982, 1985, 1989, 2337. In reference to taxation for internal improvement, 1799. In reference to tenure of office of judges, 2592, 2632. In reference to time of introduction of bills, 1294, 1371. In reference to town and county officers, 1005. In reference to vacancies in office of judges of court of appeals and supreme court, 2451, 2544, 2651. OF MR. BOWEN, In reference to court of claims, 1330. In reference to senatorial districts, 840. OF MR. E. BROOKS, In reference to abolishing office of surrogate, 26.4. In reference to canal debt, 1716. In reference to canal tolls, 3652. In reference to census enumeration, 847. In reference to charitable bequests, 89. In reference to construction of canal bridges by State, 2091. In reference to county, town and village aid to corporations. 1160, 1169. INDEX. In reference to court of claims, 2760. In reference to disposition of canal revenues, 2234. In reference to erection of new capitol, 1893, 2249, 3832. In reference to investment of educational funds, 3005. In reference to motions to reconsider, 3527. In reference to number of members of assembly, 875. In reference to powers and duties of supervisors, 985, 1135. In reference to property qualification, 623. In reference to provision for publication of laws, 2790. In reference to sale of salt springs of State, 3770. In reference to senatorial districts, 651. In reference to State aid to corporations, 1841, 2012. In reference to street railroads, 2117. In reference to submitting appointment of judiciary to the people, 3722. In reference to superintendent of public works, 2052. In reference to taxation, 1982, 1989, 2334. In reference to tenure of office of judges, 3707, 3726. In reference to time of completion of registries of elections, 3584, 3585. In reference to treasurer, 1285. In reference to uniformity of laws relating to sale of liquor, 3292. In reference to validity of bonds created for railroad purposes, 3853. OF MR. E. P. BROOKS, In reference to canal commissioners, 2057. In reference to solicitor of claims, 1360. In reference to superintendent of public works, 2348, 2355, 3633, 3637. In reference to town elections, 3580. To xesolution of inquiry of Mr. Greeley in reference to canals, 31. OF MR. E. A. BROWN, In reference to canal auditor, 2345. In reference to canal commissioners, 2033, 2034, 2345, 3652. In reference to commissioners of appeals, 2407, 2408. In reference to county judge, 2608. In reference to debate on report of com. mittee on the judiciary, 3226. 2 In reference to election of judges, 2665. In reference to jurisdiction of county courts, 2608. In reference to number of members of assembly, 863, 864. In reference to senatorial districts, 841. In reference to submitting appointment of judiciary to the people, 2545, 2652. In reference to supreme court and judges thereof, 2538, 2555, 2647. In reference to superintendent of public works, 3638. In reference to taxation, 1987. In reference to tenure of office of judges, 2555, 2665. In reference to trial by jury of issues in surrogates' courts, 3724. OF MR. W. C.. BOWN, In reference to compensation of secretary of managers of State prisons, 3226. In reference to court of appeals and judges thereof, 2390, 2406. In reference to disfranchisement, 565. In reference to officers whose election is not provided for, 3174. In reference to qualifications for voting, 535. In reference to removal of managers of State prisons, 3233. In' reference to senatorial districts, 872. In reference to taxation, 1981. To resolution of inquiry of Mr. Barto in reference to education, 285. OF MR. BURRILL, In reference to census enumeration, 844. 874. In reference to formation of corporations, 1023. In reference to negro suffrage, 496, 531. In reference to oath of office, 612. OF MR. CARPENTER, In reference to furnishing Albany Evening Journal and Albany Argus with reports of proceedings, 111. In reference to qualification of education, 200. OF MR. CASE, In reference to national guard, 3693. 0, MR. CASSIDY, In reference to investment of State funds in stocks, 3764. In reference to negro suffrage, 501, 542. X INDEX. AMENDMENTS-OF MR. CASSIDY-Continued. In reference to oath of office, 608. In reference to signing bills by Governor, 3619. OF MR. CHAMPLAIN, In reference to qualifications for voting, 453, 485, 508, 543, 570. In reference to preamble and bill of rights, 1175. OF MR. CHESEBRO, In reference to bribery at elections, 3566. In reference to census enumeration, 845. In reference to county judge, 2671, 2675, 2696, 2709. In reference to court of claims, 2773. In reference to disfranchisement, 560, 566. In reference to duties of Attorney-General in court of claims, 2773. In reference to gain or loss of residence as affecting right to vote, 568. In reference to individual liability of corporators, 1090. In reference to jurisdiction of county courts, 2671, 2675, 2696. In reference to solicitor of claims, 1347. In reference to militia, 3678. In reference to signing bills by Governor, 3619. In reference to superintendent of public works, 2347, 3634. In reference to tenure of office of judges, 2708. OF MR. CHURCH, In reference to canal tolls, 2344. In reference to common school fund, 3799. In reference to contraction of State debt for specific purposes, 3754. In reference to disposition of canal revenues, 1758, 1796, 1799, 2240. In reference to future Constitutional Conventions, 3826. In reference to improvement of canals, 2243. In reference to drawing money from State treasury, 1990, 2259. In reference to misdemeanors, 3544. In reference to mode of drawing money from State treasury, 3757. In reference to powers and duties of Gov* ernor, 3613. In reference to powers and duties of supervisors, 983. In reference to qualifications for voting, 548. In reference to registry law, 3576. In reference to State aid to corporations, 1997, 2246. In reference to street railroads, 3603. In reference to supreme court and judges thereof, 2536, 2551. In reference to taxation, 3755. In reference to taxation for internal improvement, 1799, 2244. In reference to canal auditor, 2345. To resolution of Mr. Alvord in reference to signing Constitution, 3927. To resolution of inquiry of Mr. Greoley, in reference to canals, 41. OF MR. COLAHAN. In reference to sale of liquor, 3265. OF MR. COMSTOCK, In reference to abrogation of certain laws, 3143. In reference to appropriation of money for development and management of salt springs of State, 3428. In reference to civil divisions of the State, 3134. In reference to compensation of judges, 2447. In reference to county judge, 2594, 2606, 2674, 2698. In reference to compensation of Governor, 2630. In reference to court of appeals and judges thereof, 2366, 2402. In reference to determining terms of courts by law, 2547. In reference to disfranchisement, 567. In reference to disposition of canal revenues, 1728. In reference to duties of State board of education, 2903. In reference to educational endowments, 2901. In reference to election of city officers whose election is not provided for, 3158, 3169, 3175. In reference to elective franchise and right to hold office, 3530, 3557. In reference to eligibility to office of members of common council and city officers. 3663. In reference to eligibility of office of judges INDEX. xi of court of appeals and supreme court, 3717. In reference to formation of corporations, 3182. In reference to general terms of supreme court, 2679. In reference to jurisdiction of county court, 2594, 2606, 2674, 2698. In reference to laws enacted at special sessions of Legislature, 3617. In reference to negro suffrage, 481. In reference to pardon of persons accused of bribery, 3333. In reference to passage of general laws by Legislature, 3627. In reference to power of Legislature to amend laws, 3675. In reference to proceedings in cases of bribery, 3352. In reference to punishment of persons offering bribes, 3339. In reference to qualifications for voting, 544. In reference to reviewal by judges of their own decisions, 2436. In reference to rights of people of the State, 3558. In reference to State aid to corporations, 3482. In reference to statute of limitations, 2757. In reference to submitting appointment of judiciary to the people, 2683. In reference to superintendent of public works, 3652. In reference to superior court and court of common pleas, 2548, 2663. In reference to supreme court and judges thereof, 2536, 2649, 3709. In reference to taxation, 3757. In reference to tenure of office of judges, 2575. In reference to vacancies in office of judges of court of appeals and supreme court, 2451, 2544, 2652. OF MR. CONGER, In reference to action of Convention on report relating to homo for disabled soldiers, 3452. In reference to article on suffrage, 623. In reference to assembly districts, 862. Iu reference to Attorney General, 3631. In reference to bills authorizing contrac tion of State debt for specific purpose, 3754. In reference to canal tolls, 2025, 2032. In reference to census enumeration, 874. In reference to closing debate on report of committee on right of suffrage, 357. In reference to compensation for drains dug across land of others, 3547. In reference to compensation of members of Legislature, 878. In reference to construction of canal bridges by State, 3640. In reference to contraction of State debt for specific purpose, 3755. In reference to court of claims, 1345. In reference to disfranchisement, 516, 550, 567. In reference to disposition of canal revenues, 1796. In reference to election of Governor and Lieutenant-Governor, 3621. In reference to exemption from service in militia, 3688. In reference to final passage of bills, 1302. In reference to formation of corporations, 1073. In reference to furnishing Albany Evening Journal and Albany Argus with reports of proceedings, 119. In reference to investment of educational funds, 3797. In reference to liberty of conscience, 3559. In reference to militia, 3694. In reference to number and term of office of managers of State prisons, 3819. In reference to passage of bills, 3621. In reference to powers and duties of Governor, 3615. In reference to powers and duties of supervisors, 970, 3520, 3659. In reference to probate courts, 3733. In reference to proof of right of suffrage, 3569. In reference to registry law, 587, 3582. In refer nce to report from commissioner of canal fund, 134. In reference to rules of Convention, 58. In reference to salt springs, 92. In reference to senatorial districts, 842, 3866. In reference to signing of bills by presiding officer, 1302. In reference to State officers, 1267. In reference to statute of limitations, 3643, 3644, 3647. X11 INDEX. AME iNDMENTS-OF MR. CONGER- Continued. In reference to street railroads, 2105. In reference to superintendent of public works, 2053. In reference to taxation, 3756. In reference to time of submission of future amendments to Constitution, 3825. In reference to trial by jury, 3532. Or MR. COOKE, In reference to canal.commissioners, 2349. In reference to county judge, 2598, 2606. In reference to court of appeals and judges thereof, 2282. In reference to election of additional judges of court of appeals, 2637. In reference to election of judges, 2666. In reference to general term of supreme court, 2543. In reference to jurisdiction of county courts, 2598, 2606. In reference to justice of the peace, 2610. In reference to manner of submission of Constitution, 3913. In reference to powers and duties of supervisors, 974, 977, 993. In reference to sessions of the Legislature, 1290. In reference to street railroads, 2116. In reference to submitting appointment of judiciary to the people, 2653. In reference to the supreme court and judges thereof, 2532. In reference to superintendent of public works, 2054, 2056. In reference to superior court and court of common pleas, 2437, 2547, 2653. In reference to taxation, 1987. In reference to tenure of office of judges, 2666. In reference to town and county officers, 925. In reference to divisions of the State for purposes of local government, 3141. In reference to duties of State board of education, 2906. In reference to female suffrage, 207, 364, 537. In reference to government of cities, 3125. In reference to liberty of conscience, 3558. In reference to powers and duties of Governor, 3614. In reference to powers and duties of supervisors, 3522. In reference to qualification of education, 3564. In reference to street railroads, 3603. In reference to reports of committees, 2136. OF MR. DALY, In reference to deprivation of voting on account of sickness or absence, 3578. In reference to formation of corporations, 3814. In reference to free schools, 3813. In reference to lotteries, 3601. In reference to manner of submission of Constitution, 3876. In reference to minority representation, 862. In reference to powers and duties of supervisors, 3517. In reference to registry law, 592, 595, 3570, 3576. In reference to street railroads, 3602. In. reference to uniformity of registry laws in cities, 3576. OF Mmn DEVELIN, In reference to adjourning to Saratoga, 162. In reference to appropriation bills, 2754. In reference to closing debate on report of committee on right of suffrage, 354. In reference to extra compensation of public officers, 2776. In reference to court of claims, 2771. In reference to investment of educational funds, 2924. In reference to solicitor of claims, 2774. In reference to registry law, 581. In reference to statute of limitations, 2755. OF MR. DUGANNE, In reference to Attorney-General, 1235. In reference to disfranchisement, 219, 478, 559, 560. OF MR. CORBETT, In reference to registry law, 573. OF MR. CURTIS, In reference to appointment of commissioners of charities, 2726. In reference to canal commissioners, 2345. In reference to city comptroller, 3133. In reference to commissioners of charities, 2720. In reference to compensation of State officers, 3632. INDEX In reference to disposition of canal revenues, 2229. In reference to government of cities, 2959. In reference to granting pardons, 1206. In reference to industrial interests, 91. In reference to meeting of Convention in New York, 2528. In reference to militia, 3678. In reference to national guard, 1218. In reference to opening of private roads and drains, 3248. In reference to powers and duties of supervisors, 991. In reference to reports of committees, 2136. In reference to State rights, 3559. In reference to sale of liquors, etc., 2129, 3296. In reference to State officers, 1235. In reference to street railroads, 2112, 2117. In reference to taxation, 2261, 2339. In reference to tenant of estate of inheritance, 3550. OF MR. C. C. DWIGIIT, In reference to appointment of managers of State prisons, 3183. In reference to appointment of militia officers not specified, 3693. In reference to appointment of officers of State prisons, 3230. In reference to census enumeration, 844. In reference to county judge, 2632. In reference to exemption from service in militia, 3688. In reference to free schools, 2693. In reference to gain or loss of residence by students as affecting right to vote, 3570. In reference to granting pardons, 1208. In reference to jurisdiction of county courts, 2632. In reference to justices of the peace, 2632. In reference to liability of persons offering bribes, 3824. In reference to passage of general laws by Legislature, 3604. In reference to powers and duties of President. 44. In reference to powers and duties of supervisors, 977. In reference to qualifications for voting, 235, 557. In reference to term of office of mayor, 3180. In reference to vacancies in office of judges xiii Xllt of court of appeals and supreme court, 3727. In reference to surrogates, 2677. OF UMR. T. W. DWIGHT, In reference to board of pardon, 1181, 1205. In reference to extra compensation of public officers, 1360. In reference to powers and duties of supervisors, 980. In reference to qualifications for voting, 542. In reference to registry law, 597. In reference to privileges of floor of Convention, 56. In reference to presentation of memorials, 44. To resolution of inquiry of Mr. Develin, to comptroller of city of New York, in reference to charitable institutions, 306. To resolution of inquiry of Mr. Gould, to county clerks, in reference to indictments, etc., 125. OF MR. EDDY, In reference to county courts, 100. OF AMR. ENDRESS, In reference to number of members of assembly, 876. In reference to registry law in cities, 3577. Or MR. EVARTS, In reference to contraction of State debt to pay deficits, etc., 1848. In reference to disfranchisement, 564. In reference to duration of power and jurisdiction of local courts, 2633. In reference to registry law, 618. In reference to superior court and court of common pleas, 2551. In reference to tenure of office of judges, 2635, 2636. OF MR. FARNUM, In reference to reviewal by judges of their own decisions, 3716. OF MR. FERRY, In reference to commissioners of appeals, 2643. In reference to construction of canal bridges by the State, 2087. In reference to court of appeals and judges thereof, 2165. In reference to court of claims, 1343. In reference to unsettled accounts of Convention, 3793. i i i Ii I Ii i xiv INDEX. AMENDMENTS- Continued. OF MR. FIELD, In reference to assembly districts, 3591. In reference to assistant postmaster, 58. In reference to furnishing Albany Evening Journal and Albany Argus with reports of proceedings, 116. In reference to journal of proceedings, 57. In reference to minority representation in corporations, 1097. In reference to senatorial districts, 871. In reference to privileges of floor of Convention, 56. In reference to term of office of members of assembly, 3591. In reference to yeas and nays, 57. In reference to rules of Convention, 58. OF MR. FLAGLER, In reference to formation of corporations, 1039. In reference to senatorial districts, 828. OF MR. FOLGER, In reference to allowing paupers to vote, 199. In reference to annual expenses of managers of State prisons, 3226. In reference to appropriations of money or property, 1294. In reference to assembly districts, 3609. In reference to canals, 61. In reference to compensation of judges, 2446. In reference to conferring additional powers on courts of record, 3776. In reference to contraction of State debt for specific purposes, 3754. In reference to contraction of State debt for war purposes, 1850, 1851. In reference to Cornell University, 2826. In reference to county judge, 2675. In reference to court of appeals and judges thereof, 3757. In reference to debate, 935. In reference to disfranchisement, 557. In reference to duration of power and jurisdiction of local courts, 2633. In reference to election of judges, 2632. In reference to election of members of Legislature, 880. To resolution in reference to extra compensation of public officers, 3870. In reference to formation of corporations, 1021. In reference to formation of new counties, 3609. In reference to jurisdiction of county courts, 2675. In reference to jurisdiction of courts of special sessions, 2683. In reference to number of judges of superior court, 3937. In reference to organization of Senate, 881. In reference to powers and duties of supervisors, 974, 979, 3517. In reference to qualifications for voting, 517, 548. In reference to revision or alteration of laws, 2755. In reference to signing bills by Governor, 1113. In reference to statute of limitations, 3645, 3647. In reference to submitting appointment of judiciary to the people, 2545, 2707. In reference to superior court and court of common pleas, 2663, 3776. In reference to supreme court and judges thereof, 2632. To resolution of instruction of Mr. C. L. Allen to committee on revision, in reference to surrogates' courts, 3004. To resolution of Mr. Tappen in reference to session of certain committees during recess, 1970. OF MR. FOWLER. To resolution in reference to furnishing Albany Evening Journal and Albany Argus with reports of proceedings, 116. Itl reference to sale of liquor, 3271. OF MR. FRANCIS, In reference to manner of submission of Constitution, 3907. In reference to organization of cities, 3164. OF MR. FULLER, In reference to commander-in-chief of militia, 3622. In reference to construction of canal bridges by State, 3639. In reference to final adjournment of Legislature, 1305. In reference to negro suffrage, 100. In reference to qualifications for voting, 517. OF MR. FULLERTON, In reference to compensation of judges of court of claims, 2760. INDEX. xv In reference to county, town and village' aid to corporations, 1169. In reference to election of members of Legislature, 880. In reference to street railroads, 2105. OF MR. GARYIN, In reference to city officers, 3155. In reference to powers and duties of supervisors, 3517. In reference to punishment of persons offering bribes, 3339.. In reference to registration and redemption of bank-notes; 1085. In reference to senatorial districts, 714. OF MR. GERRY, In reference to Attorney-General, 1280, 1284. In reference to erection of new capitol, 1884. In reference to individual liability of corporators, 1089. In reference to prohibition of suspension of specie payment, 1081, 1083. To rule 29, in reference to "previous question," 55, 633, 638. OF MR. GOODRICH, In reference to court of appeals and judges thereof, 2402. In reference to supreme court and judges thereof. 2456. OF Mr. GOULD, In reference to district-attorney, 1001, 1002. In reference to election of senators, 874. In reference to granting pardons, 1192, 1206. In reference to powers and duties of supervisors, 3654. In reference to senatorial districts, 844. In reference to State prisons, 89. In reference to taxation, 2339, 3760. In reference to town and county officers, 1001, 1002. In reference to town and county officers whose election is not provided for by Constitution, 928. To resolution of inquiry to county clerks in reference to indictments, etc., 121. OF MR. GRANT, In reference to court of appeals and judges thereof, 3706. In reference to disfranchisement, 547. In reference to powers and duties of supervisors, 962. In reference to qualification of education, 549. OF MR. GRAVES, In reference to appointment of managers of State prisons, 3223. In reference to compensation of Governor, 3612. In reference to compensation of judges, 2438, 2449, 2668. In reference to compensation of managers of State prisons, 3227. In reference to compensation of members of Legislature, 3592. In reference to court of appeals and judges thereof, 2398, 2407. In reference to court of claims, 3647. In reference to disfranchisement, 546. In reference to female suffrage, 500, 537, 3562. In reference to mode of submission of Constitution, 410. In reference to prohibition of fees to certain judicial officers, 2628. In reference to recess of Convention, 2528. In reference to registry law, 3577. In reference to salary of county judge, 3736. In reference to statute of limitations, 3642. In referenca to superintendent of public works, 3652. In reference to term of office of senators, 3587. In reference to trial of claims against the State, 2762. OF MR. GREELEY, In reference to abolishment of office of State Engineer and Surveyor, 1286. In reference to annual expense of managers of State prisons, 3224. In reference to Attorney-General, 1284. In reference to board of pardon, 1183. In reference to census enumeration, 874. In reference to commissioners of canal fund, 1285. In reference to compensation of senators 866, 877. In reference to court of claims, 1347. In reference to debate on article on corporations, 1069. In reference to election of members of assembly, 876. In reference to powers and duties of supervisors, 975, 994. xvi INDEX. AMENDMENTS-OF MR. GREELEY-Continued. In reference to prohibition of suspension of specie payment, 1082. In reference to registry law, 590. In reference to sale of canals, 1832, 1840. In reference to senatorial districts, 652, 871. In reference to signing bills by Governor, 1113. In reference to solicitor of claims, 1355. In reference to taxation, 1169. In reference to time of introduction of bills, 1294, 1371. In reference to town and county officers, 898. In reference to vacancies in office, 1364. To resolution of inquiry of Mr. Gerry in reference to police force of city of New York, 1828. To resolution of inquiry of Mr. Hitchman in reference to value of real estate owned by religious denominations in New York, 646. To rule seven in reference to excusing members from voting, 46. OF MR. GROSS, In reference to compensation of members of Legislature, 3592. In reference to exemption from service in militia, 1221. In reference to qualifications for voting. 546. Or MR. HADLEY, In reference to appointment of superintendent of public instruction, 2902. In reference to commander-in-chief of militia, 1227. In reference to compensation of members of Legislature, 877. In reference to granting divorces and authorizing lotteries, 3257, 3548, 3601, 3909. In reference to jurisdiction of courts of special sessions, 2704. In reference to moneys paid into courts ot appeals, 3730. In reference to power of mayor to examine heads of departments, 3168. In reference to powers and duties of supervisors, 931, 983, 3691. In reference to statute of limitations, 3639. In reference to superintendent of public works, 3634. In reference to tenure of office of judges, 2695. In reference to town and county officers, 3653. In reference to town, county and village aid to corporations, 3663. In reference to vacancies in office of judges of court of appeals and supreme court, 3734. OF MR. HALE, In reference to appointment of reporter of supreme court, 2631. In reference to canal commissioners, 2351. In reference to compensation of Governor, 3630. In reference to compensation of judges, 2551. In reference to consideration of articles in Convention, 1233. In reference to court of appeals and judges thereof, 2373. In reference to district attorney, 1004. In reference to eligibility to office, 606. In reference to escheat, 3603. In reference to general terms of supreme court, 2542. In reference to individual liability of corporators, 1079. In reference to jurisdiction of county courts, 2697. In reference to laws authorizing contraction of State debt for specific purposes, 3753. In reference to mode of submission of Constitution, 363. In reference to passage of general laws by Legislature, 3627. In reference to powers and duties of supervisors, 931, 990. In reference to " previous question," 637. In reference to proof of unavoidable failure to register for elections on account of sickness or absence, 3580. In reference to provision for publication of laws, 2631, 2990. In reference to registry law, 597. In reference to right of prisoner to last appeal to jury, 3542. In reference to sale of liquor, 2792. In reference to solicitor of claims, 2775. In reference to State aid to corporations, 1990. In reference to statute of limitations, 3639, 3641. INDEI In reference to subjects of bills, 2102. In reference to superior court and court of common pleas, 2551. In reference to supreme court and judges thereof, 2409, 2644, 2648. In reference to taxation, 2331. In reference to taxation for internal improvement, 1805. In reference to town and county officers, 1004. To rule 21 in reference to consideration of articles in Convention, 1233. To rule 29 in reference to " previous question," 637. OF MR. HAND, In reference to compensation for losses arising from riots, 3557. In reference to district attorney, 1002. In reference to excluding habitual drunkards from right of suffrage, 3565. In reference to use of spirituous liquor to influence voters at elections, 3567. In reference to members of assemblv, 863. In reference to right to take fish in inter. national waters, 3555. In reference to sending newspapers containing debates to members during recess, 1969. In reference to town and county officers, 1002. OF MR. HARDENBURGH, In reference to commissioners of appeals, 2643. In reference to conviction of impeachment, 2635. In reference to general terms of supreme court, 2650. In reference to number of voters necessary to convict for impeachment, 3727. In reference to salary of county judge, 3734. In reference to tenure of office of judges, 2636. In reference to validity of State gifts or loans, 3768. OF MR. HARRIS, In reference to court of appeals and judges thereof, 2186. In reference to disfranchisement, 559, 566. In reference to district attorney, 998. In reference to elections, 606. In reference to general terms of supreme court, 3710, 3712. 3 L. xvii In reference to powers and duties of supervisors, 974. In reference to reviewal by judges of their own decisions, 3713. In reference to submitting appointment of judiciary to the people, 2698. In reference to supreme court and judges thereof, 3708. In reference to tenure of office of judges, 2696. OF MR. HATCH, In reference to canals, 61. In reference to disposition of canal revenues, 1735, 2229. To resolution of inquiry of Mr. Greeley in reference to canals, 166, 167. To resolution of Mr. E. P. Brooks in reference to Chemung canal, 30. To resolution of Mr. Greeley in reference to closing debate on report of committee on right of suffrage, 356. OF MR. HISCOCK, In reference to canal commissioners, 2349. OF MR. HITCHMAN, In reference to town and county officers whose election is not provided for by Constitution, 929, 1007. To rule seven in reference to excusing members from voting, 47. OF MR. HITCHCOCK, In reference to adjournments of Legislature, 3594. In reference to county judges, 2696. In reference to future Constitutional Conventions, 2813. In reference to extra compensation of public officers, 2777. In reference to individual liability of corporators, 1079. In reference to investment of educational funds, 2924. In reference to jurisdiction of county courts, 2696. In reference to registry law, 619. OF MR. HUTCHINS, In reference to conferring additional powers on courts of record, 3734, 3736. To resolution of Mr. Gerry, in reference to rights and franchises of city of New York, 672. To resolution of Mr. Merritt, in reference to mode of submission of Constitution, 392. xviii INDEX. AMENDMENTS- Continued. OF MR. JARVIS, In reference to tenure of office ot mayor and comptroller of New York and Brooklyn, 3164. OF MR. KERNAN, In reference to disfranchisement, 220. In reference to powers and duties of supervisors, 972. In reference to qualifications for voting, 531. To resolution of inquiry of Mr. Harris, to clerk of court of appeals, 37. OF MR. KETCHAM, In reference to adjournments of Legislature, 881. In reference to board of pardons, 1205. In reference to compensation of judges, 2448, 2668. In reference to construction of canal bridges by State, 2081, 2090. In reference to county judge, 2603. In reference to disposition of canal revenues, 2238. In reference to election of Governor, Lieut.-Governor, etc., 889. In reference to erection of new capitol, 1892. In reference to jurisdiction of county courts, 2603, 2606, 2608, 2669, 2675. In reference to justices of the peace, 2610. In reference to number of pardons granted, 1206. In reference to registry law, 3571. In reference to summoning witnesses, 3351. OF MR. KINNEY, In reference to assembly districts, 863, 875. In reference to compensation of managers ot State prisons, 3225. In reference to construction of canal bridges by State, 2065. In reference to election of judges, 2668. In reference to free schools, 2922. In reference to qualifications for voting, 534. In reference to registry law, 574. In reference to street railroads, 3605. To resolution in reference to persons disabled in naval or military service, 3449. In reference to superintendent of public works, 2347. To resolution of inquiry of Mr. Greeley in reference to canals, 170. OF MR. KRUM, In reference to compensation of judges, 2450. In reference to county judge, 2676. In reference to court of claims, 2759. In reference to disfranchisement, 219, 551. In reference to exemption from service in militia, 1220. In reference to formation of corporations, 1024. In reference to jurisdiction of county courts, 2676. In reference to powers and duties of supervisors, 963. In reference to punishment of persons offering bribes, 3339. In reference to reviewal by judges of their own decisions, 2436. In reference to statute of limitations, 2757. In reference to submitting appointment of judiciary to the people, 2546, 2707. To resolution in reference to bills affecting city of New York, 158. To resolution in reference to debate, 936. OF MR. LANDON, In reference to compensation of stenographer for preparing index, 3846. In reference to court of appeals and judges thereof, 2400, 2404. In reference to detention of witnesses, 3321. In reference to disfranchisement, 483, 566. In reference to gain or loss of residence, 569. In reference to government of cities, 2964. In reference to manner of submission of Constitution, 3892. In reference to milith, 1227. In reference to powers and duties of supervisors, 961. In reference to privileges of persons accused of crime, 3541. In reference to superintendent of public works, 2056. OF MR. LAPHAM, In reference to assembly districts, 3589. In reference to bribery at elections, 3566. In reference to bribery of public officers, 3304. In reference to canal debt, 1388. In reference to city officers, 3156. INDEX. xix In reference to compensation of judges of court of claims, 2757. In reference to contraction of State debt for specifc purpose, 1858. In reference to county judge, 2675. In reference to court of appeals and judges thereof, 2699. In reference to disfranchisement, 208, 515. In reference to disposition of canal revenues, 1737. In reference to eligibility to office of members of common council and city officers, 3663. In reference to election of city officers whose election is not provided for, 3169. In reference to election of judicial officers, 2407. In reference to election of secretary of managers of State prisons, 3225. In reference to election of members of assembly, 3589. In reference to enactment of special laws, 3548. In reference to general terms of supreme court, 3711. In reference to impeachment of judicial officers, 3732. In reference to improvement of canals, 3703. In reference to jurisdiction of county courts, 2675. In reference to laws of the State, 3260. In reference to laws relating to drains and ditches, 3545. In reference to leases of agricultural land, 3260. In reference to opening of private roads and drains, 3254. In reference to passage of general laws by Legislature, 3605. In reference to powers and duties of supervisors, 976, 3659, 3660. In reference to qualifications for voting, 534. In reference to questioning members for speeches m:ade in Legislature, 2754. In reference to registry law, 598, 3582. In reference to removal of mayors, 3156. In reference to reviewal by judges of their own decisions, 3714. In reference to salary of surrogate, 3734. In reference to subjects of bills, 2754. In reference to superintendent of public works, 3641. I In reference to superior court and court of common pleas of New York city, 2664. In reference to time of introduction of bills, 1373, 1378. In reference to unconstitutionality of laws, 3283. In reference to vacancies in office, 2777. To resolution of inquiry in reference to pardons, 176. To rule seven, in reference to excusing members from voting, 46. To rule forty, in reference to rules of Convention, 58. OF MR. LARREMORE, ' In reference to eligibility to office of Governor and Lieutenant-Governor, 1131. In reference to tenure of office of judges, 3720. In reference to town and county officers 1004. OF MR. A. LAWRENCE, In reference to Cornell University, 2817. In reference to revenue of college landscrip fund, 2817. OF MR. M. H. LAWRENCE, In reference to county judge, 2675. In reference to erection of new capitol, 3766. To rule forty, of rules of Convention, 57. OF MR. LIVINGSTON, In reference to alienism affecting title to real estate, 3555. IM reference to claims against the State, 2760. In reference to county judge, 2676. In reference to court of appeals and judges thereof, 2404. In reference to eligibility to office, 607. In reference. to enactment of special laws,, 2102. In reference to jurisdiction of county courts, 2676. In reference to negro suffrage, 3561. In reference to registry law, 601. In reference to reviewal of decisions arising under the Code of Procedure, 3730. In reference to revision of decisions by chief justices, 2693. In reference to street railroads, 2801. In reference to surrogates' courts, 2634.'. In reference to uniformity of laws relating to disfranchisement, 564. INDEX. AMENDMENTS-OF MR. LIVINGSTON-Continued. To motion in reference to discussion on report of committee on suffrage, 181. To rule forty, of rules of Convention, 58. OF MR. LOEW, In reference to city and county officers, 3155. In reference to town and county officers whose election is not provided for by Constitution, 927. In reference to qualifications for voting, 537. In reference to registry law, 579. In reference to removal of district attorney for neglect in prosecution of bribery cases, 3820. In reference to powers and duties of supervisors, 984. OF MR. LUDINGTON, In reference to State Treasurer, 3652. OF MR. MCDONALD, In reference to advertisements of lotteries, 3601. In reference to appointment of superin tendent of public instruction, 2882. In reference to canal auditor, 2346. Inreference to capital of educational funds, 2897. In reference to commissioners of appeals, 2407. In reference to contraction of State debt for specific purposes, 1853. In reference to detention of witnesses, 3322. In reference to disfranchisement, 564. In reference to disposition of canal revenues. 1748, 2243. In reference to duty on salt, 3770. In reference to erection of new capitol, 3843. In reference to extra compensation of public officers, 3265. In reference to formation of corporations, 1023, 3524. In reference to furnishing Albany Evening Journal and Albany Argus with reports of proceedings, 116. In reference to gain or loss of residence, 569. In reference to general terms of supreme court, 2679, 3712. In reference to improvement of canals, 1748. I In reference to qualification of education for voting, 3560. In reference to qualifications for voting, 479, 535. In reference to rewards for information respecting bribery of public officers, 3331. In reference to sale of salt springs of State, 3770. In reference to sal springs of State, 3777. In reference to street railroads, 2119, 3113. In reference to superintendent of public works, 2347. In reference to supreme court and judges thereof, 2534, 2649. In reference to taxation, 1948, 1982, 2171, 2266. In reference to tenure of. office of judges, 2591. In reference to testimony in cases of bribery, 3341. In reference to town, county or village aid to corporations, 3677. In reference to town and county officers whose election is not provided for by Constitution, 3662. In reference to town. county or village aid to railroads, 3606. To resolution of Mr. Alvord, in reference to signing Constitution, 3927. To resolution of inquiry of Mr. Barto, in reference to education, 288. To resolution of Mr. Gerry, in reference to bills affecting city of New York, 158. To resolution of Mr. Greeley, in reference to closing debate on report of committee on right of suffrage, 356. To rule forty-six, in reference to assistant postmaster, 58. OF MR. MAGEE, In reference to construction of canal bridges by State, 2089, 2091. In reference to taxation, 1904, 2567. OF MR. MASTEN, In reference to assembly districts, 864. In reference to census enumeration, 847, 873. In reference to disfranchisement, 501, 563. In reference to powers and duties of supervisors, 976, 996. OF MR. MERRILL, In reference to powers and duties of super. visors, 3655. In reference to registry law, 571. INDEX. xi To resolution of Mr. McDonald, in reference to debate on report of committee on judiciary, 2392. OF MR. MERRITT, In reference to appointment of railroad commissioners, 3606, 3649. In reference to census enumeration, 844, 845. In reference to commander-in-chief of militia, 3691. In reference to compensation of members of Legislature, 877. In reference to members of assembly, 864. In reference to militia, 119, 3693. In reference to powers and duties of supervisors, 3520. In reference to senatorial districts, 844, 845, 3587. In reference to taxation, 3496. To resolution in reference to publication of Constitution, 3946. OF MR. MERWIN, In reference to assembly districts, 852, 876. In reference to election of members of assembly, 876. In reference to passage of bills, 1294. In reference to powers and duties of supervisors, 979. In reference to prohibition of fees to certain judicial officers, 2626. In reference to trial by jury, 3239. OF MR. MILLER, In reference to court of appeals and judges thereof, 2639. In reference to State aid to corporations, 3327. In reference to superior court and court of common pleas, 2662. OF MR. MONELL, In reference to election of judges, 3724. In reference to formation of corporations, 1078. In reference to superior court and court of common pleas of New York, 3724. In reference to exemption from service in militia, 1218. In reference to negro suffrage, 588. In reference to number of judges constituting a quorum in supreme court, 3712. In reference to reviewal by judges of their own decisions, 3717. OF MR. MORRIS, In reference to divorces, 1378. In reference to eligibility to office of judges of court of appeals and supreme court, 2436. In reference to extra compensation of pub-. lie officers, 2776. In reference to meeting of Convention in New York, 2528. In referen2e to national guard, 3686. In reference to re-election of mayor, 2926. In reference to street railroads, 2778. To resolution of Mr. Archer, in reference to disposition of papers of members during recess, 1969. To resolution of Mr. Merrill, in reference to debate on article on corporations, 1069. To resolution in reference to unsettled accounts of Convention, 3371. To rule thirtv-six, in reference to yeas and nays, 57. OF MR. MURPHY, In reference to compensation of Governor, 3630. In reference to compensation of judges, 3721. In reference to disposition of canal revenues, 3700. In reference to election of judges, 2665. In reference to election of justices of the peace and police justices, 3732, 3847. In reference to inclusion of cities in territorial divisions of the State for purposes of local government, 3144. In reference to minors, 1387. In reference to negro suffrage, 236, 528. In reference to passage of general laws by Legislature, 3627. In reference to prohibition of fees to certain judicial officers, 2629, 2630. In reference to statute of limitations, 3644. In reference to submitting appointment of judiciary to the people, 2653. In reference to superior court and court of common pleas of New York city, 2653, 2662. In reference to supreme court and judges thereof, 2647. To report from committee on printing in reference to exchange of proceedings with other Conventions, 123. To resolution of Mr. Merrict, in reference to mode of submission of Constitution, 396, 410. xxii * * TtxX1 INDEX. AMENDMENTS- Continued. OF MR. NELSON, In reference to disfranchisement, 556. In reference to moneys paid into courts, 3730, 3731. In reference to street railroads, 2128. To resolution of Mr. Greeley, in reference to closing debate on report of committee on right of suffrage, 352, 354. OF MI. OPDYKE, In reference to compulsory education, 2918, 3812. In reference to court of claims, 2758, 3646. In reference to extra compensation of public officers, 3168. 4 In reference to government of cities, 3126. In reference to organization of cities, 3165. In reference to persons offering bribes, 3339. In reference to powers and duties of Governor, 1131. In reference to proceedings in cases of bribery, 3350. Il reference to prohibition of suspension of specie payment, 1080. In reference to qualification of education for voters, 491. In reference to registration and redemption of bank-notes, 1086. In reference to removal of judge of supreme court, 3354. In reference to restrictions on power of Legislature, 3168. In reference to revision of laws relating to salt springs of State, 3426. In reference to State aid to corporations, 8462. In reference to taxation, 2318. To resolution of Mr. Smith, in reference to reports of committees, 2136. To rule three, in reference to messages from Governor, 44. OF MR. PAIGE, In reference to minority representation in corporations, 1092, 1108. In reference to negro suffrage, 529. In reference to oath of office, 609. ' OF MR. A. J. PARKER, In reference to assembly districts, 854. In reference to compensation of judges, 2449. In reference to court of appeals and judges thereof; 2184, 2203, 2406. In reference to court of claims, 1345. In reference to disfranchisement, 553. In reference to eligibility of members of Legislature to office, 879, 3607. In reference to formation of corporations, 1020, 1024. In reference to power of Governor in cases of treason, 3618. In reference to senatorial districts, 786, 873. In reference to testimony in equity cases. 2683. OF MR. C. E. PARKER, In reference to disposition of canal revenues, 1733. OF MR. POND, In reference to auditing and allowing private claims, 3606. In reference to compensation of senators while sitting as members of court of impeachment, 2635. In reference to court of appeals and judges thereof, 2383. In reference to court of claims, 1329, 2760. In reference to duration of power and jurisdiction of local courts, 2664. In reference to formation of corporations, 1022. In reference to powers and duties of supervisors, 991. In reference to registry law, 593. In reference to statute of limitations, 2757. In reference to town and county officers, 924. To rule thirty-three, in reference to privileges of floor of Convention, 56. OF MR. PRINDLE, In reference to court of appeals and judges thereof, 2225. In reference io disfranchisement, 563. In reference to organization of assembly, 881. In reference to qualifications for voting, 535. In reference to signing bills by Governor, 1112. In reference to street railroads, 2101. In reference to supreme court and judges thereof, 2478. In reference to tenure of office of judges, 2667. To resolution of Mr. Merrill, in reference to debate on report of committee on judiciary, 2527. INDEX. xxiii IIX111 OF MR. PROSSER, In reference to canal tolls, 2032. In reference to charitable donations by Legislature, 2726, 2729, 2733. In reference to commissioners of canal fund, 1285. In reference to contraction of State debt for specific purposes, 2246. In reference to court of claims, 2773. In reference to enlargement of canals, 3502. In reference to formation of corporations, 1101. In reference to improvement of canals, 2246. In reference to powers and duties of supervisors, 991. In reference to qualification of education for voters, 3563. In reference to registration and redemption of bank-notes, 1085. In reference to registry law, 586. In reference to State aid to corporations, 2259. In reference to term of office of members of assembly, 3591. To resolution of inquiry of Mr. Beckwith, in reference to canals, 234. To resolution of inquiry of Mr. Greeley, in reference to canals, 167. OF MR. RATHBUN, In reference to powers and duties of Legislature, 59, 973, 975, 982. In reference. to powers and duties of supervisors, 973, 975, 982. In reference to closing debate on report of committee on right of suffrage, 355. In reference to disposition of canal revenues, 1737, 1796. In reference to signing of bills by presiding officer, 1303. In reference to State aid to corporations, 2251. In reference to street railroads, 2105. In reference to taxation for internal improvements, 1818, 2248, 2261. OF MR. REYNOLDS, In reference to county treasurers, 1180. In reference to extra compensation of public officers, 1360. In reference to formation of corporations, 1022. OF Mr. ROBERTSON, In reference to appointment of superintendent of public instruction, 2882. In reference to commander-in.chief of militia, 894. In reference to county judge, 2698. In reference to court of claims, 2765. In reference to disfranchisement, 563. In reference to duration of power and jurisdiction of local courts, 2633. In reference to elections, 606. In reference to exemption from service in militia, 1218, 1228. In reference to finances and canals, 67. In reference to formation of corporations, 1103. In reference to future amendments to Constitution, 92. In reference to jurisdiction of county courts, 2698. In reference to motions to reconsider, 3528. In reference to probate court, 2634. In reference to prohibitions of fees to certain judicial officers, 2626. In reference to qualifications for voting, 535. In reference to registry law, 588. In reference to right of suffrage, 3562. In reference to revision or alteration of laws, 2755. In reference to statute of limitations, 2756. In reference to street railroads, 2802. In reference to supreme court and judges thereof; 2647. In reference to taxation, 3499. To resolution of inquiry of Mr. Harris, to clerk of court of appeals, 37. To rule three, in reference to daily order of business, 44. OF MR. RUMSEY, In reference to appointment of receivergeneral of moneys paid into court, 3727. In reference to Attorney-General, 1285. In reference to canal auditor, 2346. In reference to charitable donations by State, 2799. In reference to claims of State against incorporated companies, 3743. In reference to compensation of Governor, 3629. In reference to compensation of managers of State prisons, 3224. In reference to compulsory education, 2918, 2921. xxiv INDEX. AMENDMENTS-OF MR. RUMSE- Continued. In reference to contraction of State debt for war purposes, 1850. In reference to county, town and village aid to corporations, 1167. In reference to court of appeals and judges thereof, 2204, 2637. In reference to court of claims, 1345, 2773, 3648. In reference to disfranchisement, 558. In reference to election of additional surrogate and register of wills in city of New York, 3735. In reference to election of members of assembly, 864, 876. In reference to enactment of laws, 1293. In reference to expulsion of members of Legislature, 881. In reference to extra compensation of public officers, 1360. In reference to fee of land taken for rail. road tracks, 3254, 3549. In reference to free schools, 2916, 2921. In reference to indictment by grand jury, 3544. In reference to land taken for railroad tracks or highway purposes, 3254. In reference to lotteries, 2791. In reference to members of common councils, 3180. In reference to national guard, 1217, 1226. In reference to number of managers of State prisons, 3204. In reference to pardoning power of Governor, 3617. In reference to passage of local or private bills, 3601. In reference to persons offering bribes, 3338. In reference to powers and duties of Govnor, 3612, 3617. In reference to power of Legislature to abolish certain offices in cities, 3146. In reference to powers and duties of supervisors, 937, 976, 995, 3517, 3661. In reference to reviewal by judges of their own decisions, 2434. In reference to right of persons in military or naval service to vote, 622. In reference to sale of canals, 1840. In reference to signing bills by Governor, 1120. In reference to sending copies of reports of committees to members during recess, 1969. In reference to State aid to corporations, 2257. In reference to State officers. 1285. In reference to statute of limitations, 3645. In reference to street railroads, 3603, 3627. In reference to superintendent of public works, 3634, 3635. In reference to supreme court and judges thereof, 2650. In reference to taxation, 1952, 2799, 3496, 3499. In reference to term of office of senators, 870. In reference to Treasurer, 1287. In reference to use of evidence. 3169. To resolution of inquiry of Mr. Harris, to clerk of court of appeals. 137. To rule thirty-three, in reference to privileges of floor of Convention, 56. OF MR. L. W. RUSSELL, In reference to compensation of members of assembly, 866. OF MR. SCHELL, In reference to auditing or allowing private claims, 1319. In reference to senatorial districts, 831, 839. OF MR. SCHOONMAKER, In reference to compensation of members of Legislature, 866. In reference to court of claims, 1343,1347. In reference to disposition of canal revenues, 1733. In reference to election of judges, 3732. In reference to extra compensation of public officers, 1360. In reference to final passage of bills, 1302. In reference to formation of corporations, 1024. In reference to manner of drawing money from State treasury, 2259. In reference to powers and duties of sup.ervisors, 981. In reference to senatorial districts, 831, 839, 870. In reference to statute of limitations, 3643, 3648. In reference to superintendent of publio works, 3635, 3636, 3651. In reference to time of introduction of bills, 1301. INDEX. To resolution of inquiry of Mr. Greeley in reference to canals, 170. OF MR. SO1UMAKER. In reference to registry law, 584. In reference to town and county officers, 926. OF MR. SEAVER, In reference to claims of State against incorporated companies, 1798. In reference to disfranchisement, 99. In reference to exemption from service in militia, 3686. In reference to extra compensation of public officers, 1360. In reference to final adjournment of Legislature, 1301. In reference to formation of corporations, 1023. In reference to future amendments to Constitution, 2809. In reference to investment of educational funds, 2900. In reference to militia, 1227. In reference to passage and amendment of bills, 2754. In reference to persons offering bribes 3339. In reference to powers and duties of supervisors, 976. In reference to registry law, 3598. In reference to report of committee on corporations, 1069. In reference to town and county officers 1000. In reference to unsettled accounts of Convention, 3793. In reference to vacancies in office, 1365. To resolution relating to home for disabled soldiers, 3449. OF MR. SEYMOUR, In reference to eligibility to office, 607. In reference to formation of corporations 1017. In reference to powers and duties of supervisors, 995. In reference to registry law, 592. OF MR. SHERMAN, In reference to appropriations of money or property by Legislature, 1293. In reference to powers and duties of supervisors, 1007. To resolution of Mr. E. Brooks, in reference to revision of article on suffrage, 613. To rule nineteen, in reference to rules in committee of the whole, 55. OF MR. SILVESTER, In reference to compensation for overflowing of lands for manufacturing purposes, 3549. In reference to general terms of supreme court, 2651. In reference to supervisors of county of New York, 3659. In reference to taxation, 2340. To resolution of Mr. Pond, in reference to adjourning to Saratoga, 161. To rule forty-two, in reference to printed copies of proceedings, 58. To rule thirty-three, in reference to privileges of floor of Convention, 56. OF MR. SMITH, In reference to bribery of public officers, 3335. In reference to court of appeals and judges thereof, 2165. In reference to court of claims, 2772. In reference to general terms of supreme court, 2541. In reference to negro suffrage, 481. In reference to powers and duties of supervisors, 3512. In reference qualifications for voting, 470. In reference to right to take fish in inter. national waters, 3554. In reference to supreme court and judges thereof, 2574. In reference to tenure of office of judges, 2666. In reference to testimony in cases of bribery, 3344. To resolution of Mr. Alvord, in reference to signing Constitution, 3927. To rule twenty-three, in reference to "previous question," 49. To rule twenty-four, in reference to " previous question," 54. To rule nineteen, in reference to yeas and nays, 48. OF Mr. SPENCER, In reference to qualifications of AttorneyGeneral, 1269. In reference to canal commissioners, 2057. In reference to changing county seats, 1385. In reference to senatorial districts, 869. 4 xxvi INDEX. AMENDMENTS-OF MR. SPENCER — Continued. In reference to commissioners of appeals, 2407, 2643. In reference to county judge, 2603. In, reference to court of appeals and judges thereof, 2221. In reference to disfranchisement, 556, 563, 567. In reference to duration of power and jurisdiction of local courts, 2665. In reference to eligibility to office, 608. In reference to jurisdiction of county courts, 2603. In reference to laws relating to drains and ditches, 3545. In reference to powers and duties of supervisors, 983., In reference to private roads, 3548. In reference to prohibition of fees to certain judicial officers, 2629. In reference to publication of proposed future amendments to Constitution, 2810. In reference to registry law, 589. In reference to roads, 1386. In reference to sale of liquors, 2795. In reference to State aid to corporations, 1991. In reference to State Engineer and Surveyor, 1269. In reference to superintendent of public works, 2049. In reference to superior court and court of common pleas, 2548. In reference to supreme court and judges thereof, 2420, 2551, 2644, 2647. In reference to taxation, 1946, 2335, 3759. In reference to town and county officers, 3653. In reference to trial of, cases of claims against the State, 2760. In reference to vacancies in office, 1365. To resolution of Mr. Hadley, in reference to report of committee on organization of Legislature, 675. To resolution of Mr. Merrill, in reference to debate on report of committees on finances and canals, 1514. OF MR. STRATTON, In reference to appointment of additional surrogates, 3739. In reference to commander-in-chief of militia, 1221. In reference to corporations, 88. In reference to court of claims, 1330, 1345. In reference to election of judges, 2667. In reference to militia, 1225. In reference to reviewal by judges of their own decisions, 2709. In reference to sale of liquor, 3289, 3292. In reference to street railroads, 2125, 2127. In reference to time of introduction of bills, 1372. To resolution, in reference to meeting of Convention in New York, 2528. To resolution of Mr. Pond, in reference to adjourning to Saratoga 161. OF MR. STRONG, To rule twenty-three, in reference to " pre. vious question," 52. To rule twenty-eight, in reference to reconsideration of votes, 54. To rule twenty-nine, in reference to "previous question," 55. To rule forty-six, in reference to adoption of amendments to Constitution, 215. OF MR. TAPPEN, In reference to elective franchise, 60. In reference to qualifications for voting, 555. In reference to submitting question of appointment of judiciary to the people, 2545. In reference to superintendent of public works, 2347. To resolution of Mr. C. C. Dwight, in reference to covering street adjoining capitol with bark, 37. To resolution of Mr. Greeley, in reference to closing debate on report of committee on right of suffrage, 351. OF MR. TILDEN, In reference to contraction of State debt to pay deficits, etc., 1848. To rule twenty-eight, in reference to motions for reconsideration votes, 55. OF MR. M. I. TOWNSEND, In reference to city chamberlain, 3155. In reference to educational endowments, 2902. In reference to impeachment of judicial officers, 2635. In reference to payment of expenses of prosecution of bribery cases, 3824. In reference to private property taken for public use, 3248. In reference to sale of salt springs of State, 3418. To resolution of inquiry of Mr. Greeley in reference to canals, 166. INDEX. xxV2y To resolution of Mr. Folger in reference to death of Hon. L. Harris Hiscock, 28. OF MR. S. TOWNSEND, In reference to bounty debt, 3763. In reference to census enumeration, 3609, 3682. In reference to compensation for losses arising from riots, 3557. In reference to compensation of Governor, 3630. In reference to compensation of jurors, 3263. In reference to contracts, 3264. In reference to disposition of canal revenues, 2238. In reference to election districts, 603. In reference to election of Governor and Lieutenant-Governor, 888. In reference to eligibility to Legislature, 867. In reference to faithful military service, 3262. In reference to furnishing district schools withcopies of State papers containing laws, 2100. In reference to investment of educational funds, 2839, 2924. In reference to penalty for omitting to vote without proper excuse, 3585. In reference to proceedings in cases of bribery, 3348, 3355. In reference to provision for publication of laws, 2631. In reference to registration and redemption of bank-notes, 1085. In reference to removal of suits to court of appeals, 3738. In reference to restrictions upon agreed price of property, 3264. In reference to sale of canals, 1840. In reference to sale of Sing Sing State prison, 3232. In reference to senatorial districts, 840. In reference to superintendent of public works, 3634. In reference to taxation, 1988, 2272, 2303, 2319, 2340, 3496. In reference to taxation for internal improvement, 1818. In reference to town, county or village aid to corporations, 3676. In reference to tribunals of conciliation, 2704. OF MR. TUCKER, In reference to incorporated villages, 92. In reference to State officers, 60. OF MR. VAN CAMPEN, In reference to adjournments of Legislature, 3594. In reference to canal commissioners, 2355. In reference to department of statistics, 1285. In reference to disposition of canal revenues, 1732. In reference to elections, 605. In reference to extra compensation of public officers, 1360. In reference to formation of corporations, 1073. In reference to minority representation in Legislature, 863 -In reference to qualifications for voting, 518, 533. In reference to relations of State to Indians therein, 92. In reference to solicitor of claims, 2774. In reference to street railroads, 3608. In reference to taxation, 3496. In reference to term of office of mayor, 3081. To amendment of Mr. Greeley to rule seven, in reference to excusing members from voting, 46. To resolution in reference to furnishing reporters with stationery, 627. OF MR. VAN COTT, In reference to assembly districts, 3682. In reference to court of appeals and judges thereof, 2407. In reference to court of claims, 2771. In reference to election of members of assembly, 3682. In reference to free schools, 2918. In reference to powers and duties of supervisors, 974, 992. In reference to prohibition of fees to certain judicial officers, 2630. In reference to signing bills by Governor, 1129. In reference to statute of limitations, 3647. In reference to taxation, 2331, 3760. In reference to submitting question of appointment of judiciary to the people, 3722. OF MR. VEEDER, In reference to committee on adulteration and sale of intoxicating liquors, 641. xxviii INDEX. AMENDMENTS-OF MR. VEEDER- Continued. In reference to detention of witnesses, 35..9. In reference to disfranchisement, 555. In reference to elections, 602. In reference to election of city officers, 3158. In reference to election of judicial officers, 3723, 3732. In reference to formation of corporations, 1021. In reference to inspectors of elections, 2798, 3602. In reference to powers and duties of supervisors, 958. In reference to proof of right of suffrage, 2796. In reference to provision for publication of laws, 2789. In reference to registry law, 577. In reference to sale of liquor, 2129, 2791, 3602. In reference to solicitor of claims, 2774. In reference to street railroads, 2105, 2127, 2782. In reference to town and county officers, 903, 917, 999. In reference to town and county officers whose election is not provided for by Constitution, 1005. In reference to uniformity of registry laws, 3574. To resolution of inquiry of Mr. Gerry in reference to licenses granted in the city of New York, 1828. To resolution of Mr. Merritt in reference to publication of Constitution, 3946. To rule forty in reference to rules of Convention, 58. OF MR. VERPLANCK, In reference to arrests, 3240. In reference to bribery at elections, 3583. In reference to canal auditor, 2035. In reference to canal debt, 1462. In reference to canal tolls, 2019. In reference to construction of canal bridges by State, 2086, 2687. In reference to court of claims, 1322, 2764. In reference to disfranchisement, 551. In reference to disposition of canal revenues, 1739, 3700, 3766. In reference to election of commissioners of Niagara frontier police district, 3168. In reference to erection of new capitol, 1892. In reference to manner of submission of Constitution, 3919. In reference to militia, 1229. In reference to national guard, 1216, 1226, 1229, 3686, 3689. In reference to private property taken for public use, 3247. In reference to privileges of persons ascused of crime, 3244. In reference to property qualification fbr negroes voting, 529. In reference to registry law, 5.98. In reference to religious freedom, 3239. In reference to sale of liquor, 2161. In reference to solicitor of claims, 1360. In reference to State board of education, 2860. In reference to street railroads, 2116, 2779. In reference to submitting appointment of judiciary to the people, 2653. In reference to superior court and court of common pleas, 2653. In reference to testimony in cases of bribery, 3343. In reference to time Qf completion of registry of elections, 3581. In reference to time of introduction of bills, 1298. To resolution of Mr. Smith, in reference to disfranchisement, 136. OF MR. WALES, In reference to canal auditor, 2347. In reference to collection of United States deposit fund, 2798. In reference to court of claims, 1345. In reference to drains and ditches, 3254. In reference to investment of educational funds, 2841, 2900, 3799, 3814. In reference to female suffrage, 547. In reference to future Constitutional Conventions, 2814. In reference to rights of aliens, 3257, 3264. In reference to sale of canals, 1830, 2245. In reference to superintendeut of public works, 2041. In reference to weighing, gauging or inspecting merchandise, 1366, 2785, 3601. To resolution of Mr. Andrews, in reference to canal locks, 1569. OF MR. WAKEMAN, In reference to election of secretary of managers of State prisons, 3224. INDEX. xxix In reference to investment of educational funds, 2901. In reference to last appeal to jury, 3244.. In reference to tenure of office of judges, 2636. In reference to proceedings in cases of bribery, 3351, 3352. OF MR. WEED, In reference to exemption from service in militia, 1221. In reference to sessions of Legislature, 1290. In reference to street railroads, 2106. To resolution of inquiry of Mr. Hutchins, as to actions pending against city of New York, 673. To rule twenty-eighth, in reference to reconsideration of votes, 54. To rule twenty-ninth, in reference to "previous question," 636, 637. OF MR. WILLIAMS, In reference to construction of canal bridges by State, 2091. In reference to time of introduction of bills, 1301. In reference to time of submission of Constitution, 3813. OF MR. YOUNG, In reference to sale of salt springs of State, 3410. AMENDMENT OF CALENDAR, Resolution in reference to, 673. ANDREWS, CHARLES, A delegate at large, 135, 590, 673, 1373, 1377, 2170, 2544, 3352. Appointed member of committee on judiciary, 95. Oath of office taken by, 18. Petition in reference to charitable bequests, presented by, 391. Petition in reference to prohibition of donating to sectarian institutions presented by, 642. Petition in reference to female suffrage, presented by, 171. Remarks of, in reference to the death of Hon. L. Harris Hiscock, 25. Remarks of, on amendments to report of committee on suffrage, 503. Remarks of, on finances of State and canals, 2326, 2337. Remarks of, on joint report of committees on finances and on canals, 1475, 1477, 1478, 1479, 1481, 1484, 1727, 1730, 1732, 1759, 1878. Remarks of, on report of committee appointed to report manner of revision of Constitution, 82. Remarks of, on report of committee on judiciary, 2285, 2286, 2447, 2475, 2476, 2477, 2556, 2594, 2595, 2680. Remarks df, on report of committee on organization of Legislature, etc., 768, 865. Remarks of, on report of committee on powers and duties of Legislature, 1337, 1372. Remarks of, on report of committee on revision on article on salt springs of State, 3784. Remarks of, on report of committee on right of suffrage, 210, 542, 550, 569, 571, 600. Remarks of, on report of committee on salt springs of State, 3418, 3420, 3421, 3422, 3423. Remarks of, on report of committee on town and county officers, etc., 923, 953, 971, 997. Remarks of, on resolution of thanks to President, 3864. Resolution instructing canal committee to make investigations in reference to locks of canals, 1568. Resolution of instruction to committee on revision to amend article on judiciary, in reference to reviewal of decisions, 3713. ANNUAL ENROLLMENT, Resolution of instruction to committee on revision to amend article on militia, in reference to, 3678. APPOINTED JUDICIARY, SUBMISSION OF QUESTION TO PEOPLE, Remarks of Mr. E. A. Brown on, 2652. " Mr. Comstock on, 2547, 2653. " Mr. Cooke on, 2545. " Mr. Evarts on, 2653. " Mr. Folger on, 2546.;" Mr. Krum on, 2546. " Mr. Murphy on, 2653. " Mr. Rathbun on, 2545, 2546. Resolution of instruction to committee on revision to amend article on judiciary, in reference to, 3722. APPOINTMENT OF OFFICERS IN CITIES, Remarks of Mr. M. I. Townsend, 3158, 3159. Remarks of Mr. Veeder, 3158. xXX INDEX. APPOINTMENT OF COUNTY AND TOWN OFFICERS, Resolution of' instruction to committee or revision to amend article on town and county officers in reference to, 3662. APPOINTMENT OF MILITIA OFFICERS, Resolution of instruction to committee on revision to amend article on militia of State, in reference to, 3691, 3693. APPOINTMENT OF PRESIDENT pro tern., Resolution in reference to, 689. APPOINTMENT OF RECEIVER-GENERAL, Resolution in reference to, 646. APPOINTMENT OF SUPERINTENDENT OF PUBLIC INSTRUCTION, Petition in reference to, 624, 848. Resolution in reference to, 233. APPROPRIATIONS FOR BUILDING STATE CAPITOL, Resolution in reference to prohibition of. 416. APPROPRIATIONS TO CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS, Resolution in reference to, 100. APPROPRIATIONS BY LEGISLATURE FOR CHARITIES PROHIBITED, Remarks of Mr. Alvord on, 2734, 2743. " Mr. E. Brooks on, 2726, 2727, 2732, 2737, 2741. Remarks of Mr. Bell on, 2731, 2732, 2736, 2737, 2744. Remarks of Mr. Cassidy on, 2740. Mr. Comstock on, 2735. Mr. Develin on, 2728. " Mr. Duganne on, 2742. " Mr. Gould on, 2739, 2742. " Mr. Miller on, 2738. Mr. Murphy on, 2729, 2732. " Mr. Prosser on, 2733. " Mr. Smith on, 2740. " Mr. M. I. Townsend on, 2730. ARCHER, ORNON, A delegate from the twenty-fifth senatorial district, 45, 50, 2229, 2880, 2905. Appointed member of committee on education, etc., 96. Appointed member of committee on engrossment and enrollment, 96. Oath of office taken by, 18. Petition in favor of abolishing office of regents of university, presented by, 1416, 1827. Petition in favor of female suffrage, presented by, 177. Remarks of, on consideration of report of committee on rules, 49, 50. Remarks of, on finances of State and canals, 2236. Remarks of, on report of joint committee on currency, banking, etc., and corpora. tions other than municipal, 1057. Remonstrance against abolishing board of regents of university, presented by, 1679. Report of committee on rules, submitted by, 2058, 2080. Resolution in reference to adjournment, 2263. Resolution in reference to binding debates of Convention, 2625. Resolution in reference to manuals fur. nished conventions of other States, 2626. Resolution in reference to printing, 124. Resolution instructing Attorney-General to commence proceedings to vacate fraudulent contracts, 1628, 1680, 3538. Resolution instructing Secretary to forward documents, etc., to delegates during recess, 1969. Resolution to appoint Frank M. Jones assistant sergeant.at-arms, 2693, 2736. Resolution to appoint J. H. Kemper assistant sergeant-at-arms, 20. Resolution to appoint Hiram T. French assistant sergeant.at-arms, 2803. Resolution to print articles referred to committee on revision, 2660. Supplementary report from committee on rules, submitted by, 3538. Supplemental resolution instructing Attorney-General to commence proceedings to vacate fraudulent contracts, 1680. ARMSTRONG, JAMES, Appointed doorkeeper, 29. Oath of office taken by, 33. ARMSTRONG, JONATHAN P., A delegate from the twelfth senatorial district. Appointed member of committee on currency, banking, etc., 96. Appointed member of committee on industrial interests, etc., 96. Appointed member of committee to provide for home for disabled soldiers, 1531. Oath of office taken by, 18. Petition in favor of abolishing office of regents of university, 1416. INDEX. xxxi Petition in reference to prohibiting donations to sectarian institutions, presented by, 624. ARTICLE, ATTORNEY-GENERAL, SECRETARY OF STATE, ETC., Debate on report of committee on, 1273 to 1287. Report of committee on, taken up, 1272. Resolution of instruction to committee on revision to amend article on, in reference to election of, 3631. ON CANALS, Resolution of instruction to committee on revision to amend, in reference to super. intendent of public works, 3064. ON CORPORATIONS, ETC., Report of committee on revision on, 3844. Resolution of instruction to committee on revision to amend, in reference to consolidation of railroad companies, 1109, 2660. Resolution of instruction to committee on revision to amend, in reference to literary or benevolent, 3020, 3065. ON COUNTY TOWNS, ETC., Resolution instructing committee on revision to amend, 1911. Resolution of instruction to committee on revision to amend, in reference to county, town, or village aid to corporations, 1179, 1180. Resolution of instruction to committee on revision to amend, in reference to money raised for support of poor, 1271. Resolution of instruction to committee on revision to amend, in reference to taxation, 1911. ON EDUCATION, Debate on report of committee on revision on, 3795 to 3817. Final report of committee on revision on, 3843. Resolution of instruction to committee on revision to amend, in reference to capi. tal of educational funds, 3799. Resolution of instruction to committee on revision to amend, in reference to college land scrip fund, 3797. Resolution of instruction to committee on revision to amend, in reference to compulsory education, 3812. Resolution of instruction to committee on revision to amend, in reference to Cornell university, 3020. Resolution of instruction to committee on revision to amend, in reference to investment of educational funds, 3005, 3065, 3799, 3814. Resolution of instruction to committee on revision to amend, in reference to free schools, 3004, 3803, 3809, 3813, 3814. Resolution of instruction to committee on revision to amend, in reference to investment of United States deposit fund, 3799. Resolution of instruction to committee on revision, in reference to limitation of age of scholars in case of compulsory education, 3813. ON FINANCES OF THE STATE, Debate on report of committee on revision on, 3698 to 3705, 3741 to 3769, 3832 to 3843. Final report of committee on revision on, 3771. Resolution of instruction to committee on revision to amend article on, in refer. ence to disposition of canal revenues, 3700, 3765. Resolution of instruction to committee on revision to amend, in reference to bonds issued by State, 3757. Resolution of instruction to committee on revision to amend, in reference to canal debt, 3700. Resolution of instruction to committee on revision to amend, in reference to erection of new capitol, 3766. Resolution of instruction to committee on revision to amend, in reference to improvement of canals, 3703, 3741. Resolution of instruction to committee on revision to amend, in reference to investment of State funds in stocks, 3764. Resolution of instruction to committee on revision to amend, in reference to pay. ment of State debt in coin, 2443. Resolution of instruction to committee on revision to amend, in reference to State aid to corporations, 3764, 3768. Resolution of instruction to committee on revision to amend, in reference to State claims, 3743. INDEX. ARTICLE-ON FINANCES OF THE STATE- Continued. Resolution of instruction to committee on revision to amend, in reference to State debt contracted for specific purposes, 3753, 3754. Resolution of instruction to committee on revision to amend, in reference to taxation, 2443, 3755, 3757, 3760. Resolution to postpone action in Conven tion on, 1948. Resolution to recommit to committee on revision for final engrossment, 3769. ON FUTURE AMENDMENTS TO CONSTITUTION, Debate on report of committee on revision on, 3825 to 3828. Resolution of instruction to committee on revision to amend, in reference to future amendments, 2971, 3018, 3827, 3843. Resolution of instruction to committee on revision to amend, in reference to future Constitutional Conventions, 3826, 3827. ON GOVERNOR AND LIEUT.-GOVERNOR, ETC., Debate on report of committee on revision on article on, 3610 to 3622. Final report of committee on revision on, 3628. Resolution of instruction to committee on revision to amend, in reference to election of Governor and Lieut.-Governor, 3621. Resolution of instruction to committee on revision to amend, in reference to pardoning power of Governor, 3618. Resolution of instruction to committee on revision to amend, in reference to powers and duties of Governor, 3612, 3614, 3617. Resolution of instruction to committee on revision to amend, in reference to salary of Governor, 3612. Resolution of instruction to committee on revision to amend, in reference to salary of Lieut.-Governor, 3619. Resolution of instruction to committee on revision to amend, in reference to signing bills by Governor, 1194, 3619. Resolution of instruction to committee on revision to amend, in reference to special sessions of Legislature, 3613, 3614, 3615, 3617. Resolution of instruction to committee on revision to amend, in reference to treason, 3618. ON JUDICIARY, Debate on motion to reconsider vote adopting, 3859 to 3861. Debate on report of committee on revision, 3705 to 3739. Final report of committee on revision, 3773. Resolution of instruction to committee on revision to amend, in reference to appointment of judicial officers, 3723, 3732. Resolution of instruction to committee on revision to amend, in reference to appointment of judiciary by the people, 3722. Resolution of instruction to committee on revision to amend, in reference to sub. mitting appointment of judiciary to the people, 3722. Resolution of instruction to committee on revision to amend, in reference to commissioners of appeals, 2689. Resolution of instruction to committee on revision to amend, in reference to compensation of judicial officers, 3721. Resolution of instruction to committee on revision to amend, in reference to county judge, 3738. Resolution of instruction to committee on revision to amend, in reference to court of appeals, 3738. Resolution of instruction to committee on revision to amend, in reference to courts of record, 3734, 3736. Resolution of instruction to committee on revision to amend, in reference to decisions arising under Code cf Procedure, 3730. Resolution of instruction to committee on revision to amend, in reference to election of judges, 3707, 3720, 3724, S738. Resolution of instruction to committee on revision to amend, in reference to election of justices of the peace, 3732. Resolution of instruction to committee on revision to amend, in reference to general terms of supreme court, 3710, 3711, 3712. Resolution of instruction to committee on revision to amend, in reference to impeachment of judicial officers, 3732. Resolution of instruction to committee on revision to amend, in reference to judges of court of appeals, 3706, 3737. INDEX. ii I4 I I~NDEX. XXXU1 Resolution of instruction to committee on revision to amend, in reference to judges of court of appeals and supreme court, 3717. Resolution of instruction to committee on revision to amend, in reference to judges of supreme court, 3708. Resolution of instruction to committee on revision to amend, in reference to justices of general terms, 3712. Resolution of instruction to committee on revision to amend, in reference to moneys paid into court, 3728, 3730. Resolution of instruction to committee on revision to amend, in reference to reviewal of decisions, 3713, 3714, 3716, 3717. Resolution of instruction to committee on revision to amend, in reference to salary of county judge, 3734, 3736. Resolution of instruction to committee on revision to amend, in reference to salary of surrogate, 3734. Resolution of instruction to committee on revision to amend, in reference to supreme court, 3709. Resolution of instruction to committee on revision to amend, in reference to surrogate, 2971, 3004, 3739. Resolution of instruction to committee on revision to amend, in reference to tenure of office of judges, 3707, 3732. Resolution of instruction to committee on revision to amend, in reference to trial by jury of issues of fact in surrogates' courts, 3724. Resolution of instruction to committee on revision to amend, in reference to unconstitutional laws, 3065. Resolution of instruction to committee on revision to amend, in reference to vacancies in court of appeals, 3727. Resolution of instruction to committee on revision to amend, in reference to vacancies in supreme court, 3734. Resolution to amend, in reference to judges of court of appeals and supreme court, 192. Resolution to perfect, 2494, 2529. ON MILITIA, Debate on report of committee on revision on, 3686 to 3690, 3691 to 3698. 5 Final report of committee on revision on, 3705. Motion to reconsider vote adopting, 3861. Report from committee on revision on, 3677. Resolution in reference to, reported by committee on revision, 3696. Resolution instructing committee on revision to amend, 1864, 1911. Resolution of instruction to committee on revision to amend, in reference to annual enrollment, 3678. Resolution of instruction to committee on revision to amend, in reference to appointment of officers, 3691, 3693. Resolution of instruction to committee on revision to amend, in reference to exemption from, 3686, 3688. Resolution of instruction to committee on revision to amend, in reference to national guard, 3686, 3689. 3693. Resolution of instruction to committee on revision to amend, in reference to organization of, 1234. ON OFFICIAL CORRUPTION, Report of committee on revision on, 3845. Resolution of instruction to committee on revision to amend, in reference to bribes, 3824. Resolution of instruction to committee on revision to amend, in reference to payment of expenses of prosecutions for, bribery, 3822. 'Resolution of instruction to committee on revision to amend, in reference to prosecutions for bribery, 3820. ON ORGANIZATION OF LEGISLATURE, ETC.. Debate on report of committee on revision on, 3586 to 3609, 3678 to 3686. Final report of committee on revision on, 3624. Resolution of instruction to committee on revision to amend, in reference to adjournment of Legislature, 3594. Resolution of instruction to committee on revision to amend, in reference to aliens, 1180, 1195. Resolution of instruction to committee on revision to amend, in reference to assembly districts, 3589, 3591, 3682. Resolution of instruction to committee on revision to amend, in reference to census enumeration, 3609, 3682. xxxiv INDEX. ORGANIZATION OF LEGISLATURE-Continued. Resolution of instruction to committee on revision to amend, in reference to compensation of senators while sitting on trials for impeachment, 935, 1013. Resolution of instruction to committee on revision to amend, in reference to salary of members of Legislature, 1134, 1181, 1362, 2424, 3591. 3592, 3605. Resolution of instruction to committee on revision to amend, in reference to senatorial districts, 3587, 3866. Resolution of instruction to committee on revision to amend, in reference to term of office of senators, 936, 3587, 3588. Resolution of instruction to committee on revision to add to section five, in reference to salary of members, 2424. ON POWERS AND DUTIES OF LEGISLATURE, Resolution of instruction to committee on revision.to amend, in reference to eligibility to office of members of Legislature, 3607. Resolution to committee on revision to amend in reference to escheat, 3603. Resolution of instruction to committee on revision to amend, in reference to guaging and inspecting merchandise, etc., 3601. Resolution of instruction to committee on revision to amend, in reference to inspectors of election, 3602. Resolution of instruction to committee on revision to amend, in reference to lotteries, 3601. Resolution of instruction to committee on revision to amend, in reference to passage of general laws, 3605. Resolution of instruction to committee on revision to amend, in reference to street railroads, 3602, 3603, 3604, 3605, 3606, 3608, 3677. ON PREAMBLE AND BILL OF RIGHTS, Debate on report of committee on revision on, 3529 to 3560. Final report of committee on revision on, 3595. Resolution of instruction to committee on revision to amend, in reference to alienism affecting title to real estate, 3555. Resolution of instruction to committee on revision to amend, in reference to com~pensation for land overflowed for manufacturing purposes, 3549. Resolution of instruction to committee on revision to amend, in reference to criminal prosecutions, 3541. Resolution of instruction to committee on revision to amend, in reference to detention of witnesses, 3539. Resolution of instruction to committee on revision to amend, in reference to divorces, 3550, 3602, 3909. Resolution of instruction to committee on revision to amend, in reference to divorces and lotteries, 3556. Resolution of instruction to committee on revision to amend, in reference to ditches and drains, 3545. Resolution of instruction to committee on revision to amend, in reference to elective franchise, 3557. Resolution of instruction to committee on revision to amend, in reference to prisoner having last appeal to jury, 3542. Resolution of instruction to committee on revision to amend, in reference to privatA property taken for public use, 3547, 3549. Resolution of instruction to committee on revision to amend, in reference to private roads, 3548. Resolution of instruction to committee on revision to amend, in reference to right to catch fish in international waters, 3554. Resolution of instruction to committee on revision to amend, in reference to special laws, 3548. Resolution of instruction to committee on revision to amend, in reference to State sovereignty, 3558. Resolution of instruction to committee on revision to amend, in reference to taxation, 3066, 3557. Resolution of instruction to committee on revision to amend, in reference to tenant of estate of inheritance, 3550. ON THE SALT SPRINGS OF STATE, Debate on report of committee on revision on, 3777 to 3788. Report of committee on revision on, 3769. Resolution of instruction to committee on revision to amend, in reference to sale of salt springs, 3770. ON SECRETARY OF STATE, COMPTROLLER, ETC., Debate on report of committee on revision on, 3631 to 3653. INDEX. XXXV Final report of committee of revision on, 3672. Report of committee on revision on, 3622. Resolution of instruction to committee on revision to amend, in reference to Canal Commissioners, 3652. Resolution of instruction to committee on revision to amend, in reference to canal tolls, 3652. Resolution of instruction to committee on revision to amend, in reference to construction of canal bridges by State, 3639, 3640, 3643. Resolution of instruction to committee on revision to amend, in reference to contracts, 3651. Resolution of instruction to committee on revision to amend, in reference to court of claims, 3646, 3647, 3648. Resolution of instruction to committee on revision to amend, in reference to election of Secretary of State and AttorneyGeneral, 3631. Resolution of instruction to committee on revision to amend, in reference to railroad commissioners, 3649. Resolution of instruction to committee on revision to amend, in reference to State Engineer, 3632. Resolution of instruction to committee on revision to amend, in reference to statute of limitations, 3639, 3641, 3642, 3643, 3644, 3645, 3647, 3648. Resolution of instruction to committee on revision to amend, in reference to superintendent of public works, 3633, 3634, 3635, 3637, 3641, 3652. Resolution of instruction to committee on revision to amend, in reference to term of office of judges of court of claims, 3652. Resolution of instruction to committee on revision to amend, in reference to term of office of superintendent of public works, 3652. Resolution of instruction to committee on revision to amend, in reference to Treasurer, 3652. Resolution to committee on revision to amend, in reference to assistant superintendent of public works, 3638. ON STATE PRISONS, Final report of committee on revision on, 3845. Resolution of instruction to committee on revision to amend, in reference to superintendent of State prisons, 3817. ON. SUFFRAGE, Debate on report of committee on revision on, 2560 to 3586. Final report of committee on revision on, 3597. Resolution instructing committee on revision to amend, 1911. Resolution of instruction to committee on revision to amend, in reference to bribery at elections, 3583. Resolution of instruction to committee on revision to amend, in reference to disfranchisement, 3565. Resolution of instruction to committee on, revision to amend article on, in reference to educational qualification, 3560, 3563. Resolution of instruction to committee on revision to amend, in reference to failure of voters to register, 3578. Resolution of instruction to committee on revision to amend, in reference to female suffrage, 3562. Resolution of instruction to committee on revision to amend, in reference to gain or loss of residence in time of war, 622. Resolution of instruction to committee on revision to amend, in reference to penalty for omission to vote, 3585. Resolution of instruction to committee on revision to amend, in reference to proof of right to vote, 1911. Resolution of instruction to committee on revision to amend, in reference to registry law, 623, 641, 644, 3570, 3571, 3577,. 3580, 3581, 3582. Resolution of instruction to committee on revision to amend, in reference to right of students to vote, 2815, 3570. Resolution of instruction to committee on revision to amend, in reference to rights of voters, 2205. Resolution of instruction to committee on revision to amend, in reference to uniformity of registry laws, 3574. ON TOWN AND COUNTY OFFICERS, Debate on report of committee on revision on, 3653 to 3665, 3674 to 3677. Final report of committee on revision on, 3690. Debate on report of committee on revision on, 3817 to 3825. INDEX. ARTICLE-ON TOWN AND CO. OFFICERS- COntin'd. Resolution of instruction to committee on revision to amend, in reference to appointment of officers, 3662. Resolution of instruction to committee on revision to amend, in reference to bonding of towns, 3676. Resolution of instruction to committee on revision to amend, in reference to city officers, 3663. Resolution of instruction to committee on revision to amend, in reference to members of common councils, 3663. Resolution of instruction to committee on revision to amend, in reference to registers of deeds, 1181. Resolution of instruction to committee on revision to amend, in reference to registers of wills, 3653. Resolution of instruction to committee on revision to amend, in reference to sheriffs, 3653. Resolution of instruction to committee on revision to amend, in reference to supervisors, 3654, 3655, 3658, 3659, 3660, 3661. Resolution of instruction to committee on revision to amend, in reference to town, county and village aid to corporations, 3663, 3676. ASSEMBLY, Communication from clerk of, in reference to titles of bills, 610. Resolution in reference to election of members of, 120. ASSEMBLY DISTRICTS, Amendment of Mr. Baker in reference to, 866. Amendment of Mr. Bergen in reference to, 3589. Amendment of Mr. Conger in reference to, 862. Amendment of Mr. Bickford in reference to, 862. Amendment of Mr. Field in reference to, 3591. Amendment of Mr. Folger in reference to, 3609. Amendment of Mr. Kinney in reference to, 863, 875. Amendment of Mr. Lapham in reference to, 3589. Amendment of Mr. Masten in reference to, 864. Amendment of Mr. Merwin in reference to, 852, 876. Amendment of Mr. A. J. Parker in reference to, 854. Amendment of Mr. Van Cott in reference to, 3682. Remarks of It (i Opdyke on, 491, 3563. " Prosser on, 3563. t QUALIFICATIONS OF VOTERS, Report in reference to, 177, 179. QUORUM, Resolution in reference to number constituting, 2778. RAILROAD ON UPPER HUDSON RIVER, Resolution of inquiry to State Engineer and Surveyor in reference to construction, etc., of, 852. RAILROAD COMMISSIONERS, Resolution of instruction to committee on revision to amend article on Secretary of State, Comptroller, etc., in reference to, 3649. RAILROAD COMMISSIONERS, BOARD OF, Remarks of Mr. Merritt on, 3649. RAILROAD COMPANIES, Resolution in reference to the consolidation of. 416. Resolution of instruction to committee on revision to amend article on corporations in reference to consolidation of, 1109, 2660. RAILR6ADS IN CITIES AND VILLAGES, LEGISLATURE PROHIBITED FROM GRANTING RIGHT TO CONSTRUCT, Remarks of Mr. Barnard on. 1386. (" Bergen on, 1379. " Cooke on, 1380. " Rathbun on, 1380, 1386. Rumsey on, 1381. " Smith on, 1381. RAILROADS, STATE AID TO, Debate on, 3461 to 3483. RATHBUN, GEORGE, A delegate from the twenty-fifth senatorial district, 28, 163, 165, 517, 580, 644, 645, 749, 925, 1133, 1169, 1171, 1299, 1320. 1321, 1329, 1789, 1797, 1914, 2099, 2102, 2116, 2118, 2125, 2268, 2305, 3559, 3573, 3583, 3849. Appointed member of committee on powers and duties of Legislature, etc., 95. Appointed member of committee on revision, 2376. Oath of office taken by, 18. Petition in favor of universal suffrage, presented by, 157. Petition in favor of female suffrage, presented by, 177. Petition in reference to prohibiting donations to sectarian institutions, presented by, 445. Remarks of, in reference to adjournment, 190, 1912, 1914. Remarks of, on amendments to report of committee on suffrage. 526. Remarks of, on consideration of report of committee on rules, 59, 72. Remarks of, on employment of clerks to committees, 154, 155. Remarks of, on joint report of committee on currency, banking, etc., and corporations other than municipal, 1028, 1102. Remarks of, on motion for call of Convention, 734. Remarks of, on postponement of consideration of report of committee on finances and canals, 1234. Remarks of, on postponement of consideration of report of committee on powers and duties of Legislature, 1290. Remarks of, on report of committee on counties, towns, etc., 1151, 1152, 1153, 1154. Remarks of, on report of committee on finances and canals, 40, 45, 47, 1787, 1788, 17E4, 1802, 1822, 1875, 1880, 1882, 2244, 2251, 2252, 2255, 2267, 2316, 2324, 2325, 2342. Remarks of, on report of committee on Governor, Lieut.-Governor, etc., 1111, 1128. Remarks of, on report of committee on judiciary, 2178; 2179, 2192, 2388, 2389, 2462, 2463, 2544, 2545,.2557, 2587. Remarks of, on report of committee on organization of Legislature, etc, 859, 864. clxxxii INDEX. RATHBUN, GEORGE- Continued. Remarks of, on report of committee on powers and duties of Legislature, 1295, 1296, 1303, 1317, 1318, 1319, 1321, 1328, 1329, 1331, 1336, 1347, 1371, 1373, 1380, 1386, 2103, 2105, 2108, 2109, 2111, 2117, 2118, 2123, 2153, 2154. Remarks of, on report of committee on revision on article on Governor, Lieut.Governor, etc., 3616. Remarks of, on report of committee on revision on article on organization of Legislature, etc., 3593. Remarks of, on report of committee on revision on article on Secretary of State, Comptroller, etc., 3635, 3637, 3643. Remarks of, on report of committee on revision on article on suffrage, 3578. Remarks of, on report of committee on suffrage, 543, 578, 591. Remarks of, on report of committee on town and county officers, etc., 939, 951, 956, 982, 987, 1005. Remarks of, on resolution in reference to action on report of committee on suffrage. 449. Resolution of inquiry to Comptroller in reference to, 1013, 1033. REAL ESTATE, ALIENISM AFFECTING TITLE TO, Remarks of Mr. Livingston on, 3555. " Rumsey on, 3556. REAL ESTATE, EQUAL RIGHTS OF ALIENS TO HOLD, Remarks of Mr. Alvord on, 3258. It Gould on, 3259. " M. T. Townsend on, 3259. 4" Verplanck on, 3259. " 'Wales on, 3257 REBBLLION, PUTTING DOWN OF, Resolution in reference to refunding moneys expended by United Slates in, 672. RECEIVER GENERAL, Resolution in reference to appointment of, 646. RECESS DURING SESSIONS, Resolution in reference to, 1723. REFORM JUDICIAL, Communication in reference to, 2136. REGENTS OF UNIVERSITY, Communication from. 754. Communication from secretary of board of, 2478. Communication in reference to report of, 2654. Petition against abolishing office of, 1416, Remarks of, on resolution in reference to death of Hon. L. H. Hiscock, 28. Remarks of, on resolution in reference to order of debate on report of committee on organization of Legislature, etc., 647. Remarks of, on resolution to appoint committee to report mode of submission of amendments to Constitution, 403. Remarks of, on resolution to discharge committee of the whole from consideration of report of committee on organization of Legislature, etc., with instructions, 675. Report of committee on powers and duties of the Legislature, presented by, 1171. Resolution in reference to tariff on railroads, 234. REAL ESTATE, Resolution of inquiry to tax commissioners in reference to value of, held by religious denominations, 363, 646. Resolution of instruction to committee on revision to amend article on preamble and bill of rights in reference to alienism affecting title to, 3555. 1529, 1779, 2058, 2392, Petition 1193, 1460, 2058, 2478, ' 1624, 1679, 1723, 1771, 1778, 1827, 1912, 1955, 1969, 2019, 2073, 2135, 2216, 2281, 2356, 2443, 2478, 2568. i in favor of abolishing office of, 1229, 1306, 1361, 1362, 1375, 1507, 1624, 1679, 1827, 1977, 2228, 2273, 2281, 2356, 2392, 2612, 2710. Remarks of Mr. Alvord on, 2865, 2871. E. A. Brown on, 2670. Curtis on, 2873, 2874. " Gould on, 2866, 2868, 2869. Remarks of Mr. Hale on, 2872. Smith on, 2862. " Verplanck on, 2862. REGISTER OF DEEDS, Resolution of instruction to committee on revision to amend article on town and county officers in reference to, 1181. INDEX. clxxxiii REGISTER OF WILLS, Resolution of instruction to committee on revision to amend article on town and county officers in reference to, 3653. REGISTRATION AND REDEMPTION OF BANK NOTES, Remarks of Mr. Beadle on, 1086, 1088. 4" Champlain on, 1087. " Opdyke on, 1086, 1087. " S. Townsend on, 1085. REGISTRY, Resolution to instruct committee on revision to amend article on right of suffrage in reference to, 623, 641, 644. REGISTRY LAW, Amendment of Mr. Alvord in reference to, 601. Amendment of Mr. Andrews in reference to, 600. Amendment of Mr. Barker in reference to, 577. Amendment of Mr. Barto in reference to, 580. Amendment of Mr. Bickford in reference to, 580. Amendment of Mr. Church in reference to, 3576. Amendment of Mr. Conner in reference to, 587, 3582. Amendment of Mr. Corbett in reference to, 573. Amendment of Mr. Daly in reference to, 592, 595, 3570. Amendment of Mr. Develin in reference to, 581. Amendment of Mr. T. W. Dwight in reference to, 597. Amendment of Mr. Evarts in reference to, 618. Amendment of Mr. Graves in reference to, 3577. Amendment of Mr. Greeley in reference to, 590. Amendment of Mr. Hale in reference to, 597. Amendment of Mr. Hitchcock in reference to, 619. Amendment of Mr. Ketcham in reference to, 3571. Amendment of Mr. Kinney in reference to, 574. Amendment of Mr. Lapham in reference to, 598, 3582. Amendment of Mr. Livingston in reference to, 601. Amendment of Mr. Loew in reference to, 579. Amendment of Mr. Merrill in reference to, 571. Amendment of Mr. Pond in reference to, 593. Amendment of Mr. Prosser in reference to, 586. Amendment of Mr. Robertson in reference to, 588. Amendment of Mr. Schumaker in reference to, 584. Amendment of Mr. Seaver in reference to, 3598. Amendment of Mr. Seymour in reference to, 592. Amendment of Mr. Spencer in reference to, 589. Amendment of Mr. Veeder in reference to, 577. Amendment of Mr. Verplanck in reference to, 598. Remarks of Mr. Alvord on, 576, 582, 594, 601, 621, 3579. Remarks of Mr. Andrews on, 571, 600. " Ballard on, 571, 572. " Barker on, 621. s" Barnard on, 572, 619. " Bell on, 584. " E. Brooks on, 571, 585, 3584. Remarks of Mr. E. A. Brown on, 616. " Champlain on, 570, 586. Chesebro on, 617. Comstock on, 3575. " Conger on, 587, 619. *" Daly on, 582, 594. " Develin on, 580, 581, 589, 599, 601. Remarks of Mr. Evarts on, 617, 619. "* Fuller on, 616, 617. s" Greeley on, 583, 587, 591, 594, 621. Remarks of Mr. Hale on, 597, 617, 3580. 1" Hitchman on, 599. " Hutchins on, 580, 581. " Kernan on, 575. "; Ketcham or, 3571. " Lapham on, 575, 600, 619. Livingston on, 574. McDonald on, 619. elxxxiv INDEX. REGISTRY LAW —Continued. Remarks of Mr. Masten on, 616. (" Merrill on, 572. " Miller on, 585. (" Opdyke on. 3575. A. J. Parker on, 578, 595. (" Pond on, 577. Prosser on, 586. " Rathbun on, 578, 591, 598, 3578. Remarks of Mr. Robertson on, 588, " Schumaker on, 584, 593. 593, 596. Remarks of Mr. Seymour on, 592. " M. I. Townsend on, 583. 591. Remarks of Mr. Van Campen on, 593. " Veeder on, 577, 622. t" Verplanck on, 598, 3578. Resolution of instruction to committee on revision to amend article on suffrage, in reference to, 623, 641, 644, 3570, 3571, 3577, 3580, 3581, 3582. REGISTRY LAWS, Resolution of instruction to committee on revision to amend article on suffrage, in reference to uniformity of, 3574. RELIGIOUS LIBERTY, Petition in reference to, 122. REMARKS, In reference to compensation of stenographer, 182. In reference to petition of veterans of 1812, 171. On employment of clerks to committees, 145. On motion to amend rule in reference to order of business of Convention, 849. On petition in reference to State prisons, 183. On report of committee on canals, 812. On report of committee on powers and duties of Legislature, 1316. On report of committee on printing in reference to extra copies of report of committee on town and county officers, etc., 816. On resolution in reference to adjournment, 645. On resolution in reference to adjournment to Saratoga, 161, 162, 174, 358 to 363. On resolution in reference to amendment of section of article on organization of Legislature, etc., 1013. On resolution in reference to bills passed, etc., 158. On resolution in reference to canals, 159. On resolution in reference to discharging committee of whole from consideration of report of committee on organization of Legislature, etc., 675. * On resolution in reference to final adjournment of Convention, 673. On resolution in reference to life leases of land, 308, 309. On resolutionin reference to order of busi. ness of Convention, 818. On resolution in reference to report of standing committees, 1011, 1012. On resolution of inquiry to Comptroller of city of New York in reference to amounts paid charitable insttutions, 306. On resolution of inquiry to superintendent of public instruction in reference to common school, 284 to 288. On resolution to appoint committee to inquire as to power of Convention to impose penalties, 883. On resolution to discharge committee of the whole from consideration of report of committee on Governor, Lieut..Governor, etc., 896. On resolution to return communication of commissioners of canal fund, 166 to 170. REMONSTRANCES-[See petitions.] REMOVAL OF MAYORS, Remarks of Mr. Alvord on, 3156. RENTS, Petition in reference to, 1193. RENTS AND TAXES, Petition in reference to equalizing, 2216. REORGANIZATION OF COURTS, Resolution in reference to, 216. REORGANIZATION OF JUDICIARY, Plan for, 104, 122, 171. REPORT, Additional from committee on canals, 1064. Additional fromcommittee on corporations, banking, insurance, etc., 1010. INDEX. From committee appointed to ascertain what suitable public halls can be obtained in New York for use of Convention, 2654. From committee appointed to confer with authorities of Albany in reference to hall for Convention, 2524. From committee on address to people, showing changes in Constitution, 3910. From committee on adulteration and sale of intoxicating liquors, 2274. From committee on Attorney-General, Secretary of State, etc., taken up, 1272. From committee on bill of rights 172. From committee on charities, 215, 1309. From committee on contingent expenses, 250, 2136, 2204, 3003, 3792, 3793, 3794. From committee on contingent expenses in reference to extra copies of Constitution, 3948. From committee on contingent expenses in reference to furnishing members of Legislature with copy of debates, 3948. From committee on contingent expenses in reference to furnishing reporters with copy of debates, etc., 3948. From committee on contingent expenses in reference to furnishing stationery to reporters, 626. From committee on contingent expenses in reference to furnishing stationery to reporters, called from table, 642. From committee on contingent expenses in reference to index, 3845. From committee on contingent expenses in reference to payment of expenses of committee appointed to visit New York, 3915. From committee on cqptingent expenses in reference to payment of janitor of city hall, 3915. From committee on contingent expenses in reference to pay of committee on revision during recess, 3915. From committee on contingent expenses in reference to printing extra copies of Constitution, 3915. From committee on contingent expenses in reference to publishing debates, 3869. From committee on counties, towns, etc., 933. 24 clxxxv From committee on currency, banking, 'etc., and on corporations, etc., other than municipal, 669. From committee on education in reference to school fund, 1564. From committee on engrossment, 3929. From committee on finances, 790. From committee on future amendments, etc., of Constitution, 1349. From committee on Governor and Lieut.Governor, etc., 666. From committee on home for disabled soldiers, 3064. From committee on industrial interests, 1233, 2424. From committee on industrial interests in reference to drainage, 669. From committee on judiciary, 122, 1306, 3457. From committee on militia and military officers, 1099. From committee on official corruption, 2276. From committee on organization of Legislature, 303, 391. From committee on pardoning power, 933. From committee on powers and duties of Legislature, 1171. ~ From.committee on practice of medicine, etc., 3321. From committee on preamble and bill of rights, 2273. From committee on printing, 97, 122, 124, 137, 156, 182, 264, 2625, 2670, 2671. From committee on printing, in reference to communication from Dr. Lieber, 233. From committee on printing, in reference to printing extra copies of documents, 1033. From committee on printing, in reference to printing extra copies of reports, 1349. From committee on printing, in reference to extra copies of report of committee on town and county officers, etc., 816. From committee on relations of State to Indians, 2881. From committee on revision on article on corporations, etc., 3844. From committee on revision on article on finance, 3698. From committee on revision on article on Governor and Lieut.-Governor, 3629. From committee on revision on article on militia of the State, 3677. clxxxvi INDEX. REPORT- Continued. From committee on revision on article on official corruption, 3845. Prom committee on revision on article on organization of Legislature, etc., 3624. From committee on revision on article on salt springs of the State, 3769. From committee on revision on article on Secretary of State, Comptroller, etc., 3622. From committee on revision on article on town and county officers, 3653. From committee on revision, resolution in reference to consideration of, 3527. From committee on revision, resolution in reference to final, 3283, 3327. From committee on right of suffrage, 177. From committee on rules. 33, 2058, 2080. From committee on rules, consideration of, 42. From committee on salt springs, 2560. From committee on Secretary of State, etc., 1009. From committee on State prisons, 1771 to 1] 777. From committee on submission of the Constitution, 3790. From committee on submission, resolution in reference to closing consideration of separate articles, in reference to consid. eration of, and in reference to final reading of Constitution, 3865. From committee on town and county officers, etc., 755. From committee on town and county officers, etc., report from committee on printing in reference to extra copies of, 816. From Governor and Lieut.-Governor, debate on, 1109 to 1132. From prison association to committee on State prisons, resolution to refer, 156. From select committee, in reference to copies of Constitution with notes, etc., 158. In reference to diagrams, 198. Minority, of committee on canals, 814, 1066, 1067. Minority, from committee on canals, in reference to lateral canals, 816. Minority, from committee on charities, etc., 1309. Minority, from committee on cities, 2095. Minority, from committee on contingent expenses, 250. Minority, from committee on contingent expenses in reference to furnishing stationery to reporters, 627. Minority, from committee on contingent expenses in reference to publishing debates, 3869. Minority, from committee on finances, 797, 806, 1679. Minority, from committee on judiciary, 1625. Minority, from committee on Legislature, its organization, etc., 304. Minority, from committee on official cor. ruption, 2280. Minority, from committee on powers and duties of Legislature, 1229, 1507, 1511. Minority, from committee on relations of State to Indians, 2925. Minority, from committee on salt springs, 2612. Minority, from committee on State prisons, 1777. Minority, from committee on suffrage, 179. Minority, from joint committees on corporations other than municipal, 670. Resolution instructing committees to, 2098, 2136. Supplementary, in reference to veto power from committee on Governor, Lieut.Governor, etc., 668. Supplementary, from committee on currency, banking, etc., in reference to liabilities of stockholders, 671. Supplementary from committee on indus. trial interests in reference to right to catch fish, 669. Supplementary, from committee on rules, 3538. REPORT COMPLETE,* From committee on revision on article on banking corporations, 3844. From committee on revision on article on education, 3843. From committee on revision on article on finance, 3771. From committee on revision on article on future amendments to the Constitution, 3843. From committee on revision on article on judiciary, 3773. From committee on revision on article on militia, 3705. INDEX. From committee on revision on article on official corruption, 3845. From committee on revision on article on Secretary of State, Comptroller, etc., 3672. From committee on revision on article on State prisons, 3845. From committee on revision on article on town and county officers, 3690. REPORTS, Report from committee on printing in reference to printing extra copies of, 1349. REPORTS, FINAL, OF CONVENTION, Resolution in reference to, 672. REPORTS FROM COMMITTEES, Resolution to limit debate on, 1830. REPORTERS, * Announced by President to the Convention, 171. Report from committee on contingent expenses in reference to furnishing stationery to, 626. Report of committee on contingent expenses in reference to furnishing stationery to, called from table, 642. Resolution to furnish stationery to, 175, 252, 642. REPRESENTATION, MINORITY, Resolution of inquiry in reference to, 100. RESIDENCE IN TIME OF WAR, Resolution of instruction to committee on revison to amend article on suffrage, in reference to gain or loss of, 622. RESOLUTION, Advising Attorney-General to ascertain and revoke fraudulent contracts, 2073. Advising continuation of investigation into alleged frauds in management of canals, by Senate committee, 2073. Appointing E. F. Underhill stenographer, 20. Appointing Luther Caldwell secretary, 20. Appointing S. 0. Pierce sergeant-at-arms, 20. Asking information in reference to canals, called up, 31, 38. Authorizing committee on adulteration and sale of liquors to obtain information, 641, 643. clxxxvii Authorizing committee on canals to send for persons and papers, for information in reference to canals, 611. Authorizing committee on canals to take testimony, 144, 850, 851. Authorizing committee on judiciary to take testimony, 122. Authorizing committee on official corruption to take testimony, etc., 640, 643. Authorizing committee on revision to add to article on judiciary, 2689. Authorizing committee on revision to meet during adjournment of Convention, 2661. Authorizing committee on rules to print their report, 30. Authorizing committee on salt springs to hold sitting at salt reservation, 817. Authorizing committee on State prisons to send for persons and papers for information on prison system, 288. Authorizing Legislature to amend charters of corporations, 1014. Authorizing secretary to take charge of documents during recess, 2689. Authorizing stenographer to prepare index of proceedings of Convention, 3538. Debate on, in reference to closing on article of suffrage, 322, 351, 355 to 358. Extending privilege of floor to members of former State conventions, 23. Fixing time of final reading of Constitution, 3827, 3865. For additional rules in reference to business of Convention, 155. For binding Constitution, with notes, etc., 644. From committee on printing, in reference to printing report of committee on powers and duties of Legislature, 1271. Granting use of hall to advocates of female suffrage, 143. Granting use of hall to liquor dealers' association of New York city, 1629. In reference to abolishment of committee of the whole, 1180. In reference to abolishment of court of appeals, 233. In reference to abolishment of grand jury, 193. In reference to abolishment of office of school commissioner, 640. * clxxxviii INDEX. RESOLUTION- Continued. In reference to abolishment of office of superintendent of insurance department, 251. In reference to abolishment of office of superintendent of public instruction, 195. In reference to abolishment of offices, 217. In reference to abolishment of presentments by grand juries, 138. In reference to absentees, 412. In reference to accidents on railroads and steamboats, 143, 174. In reference to action on debate on report of committee on powers and duties of Legislature, 1271. In reference to action on report of committee on right of suffrage, 416, 447, 527, 611. In reference to adjourning Convention to Troy, 2655, 2659. In reference to adjournment, 145, 163, 266, 412. 645, 1680, 1919, 1951. 2058, 2098, 2263, 2528, 2529, 2567, 2657, 2658, 2659, 3003, 3788. In reference to adjournment over July 4th, 160. In reference to advertising for bids for work done for State, etc., 2019. In reference to amendment of calendar, 673. In reference to application of previous question, 850. In reference to appointment of a receivergeneral, 646. In reference to appointment of President pro tern., 183. In reference to appointment of State reporter, 141. In reference to appointment of superintendent of public instruction, 233. In reference to appropriation of land, etc., for manufacturing purposes, 124. In reference to appropriations to charitable institutions, 100, 185. In reference to article on militia of State, reported by committee on revision, 3696. In reference to assistant janitor, 3182. In reference to bills passed relating to the city of New York, 142, 158. In reference to binding debates of Convention, 2625., In reference to board of supervisors, etc., 173. In reference to breaks in Erie canal, 219, 234. In reference to bribery in Legislature, 184, 195, 2205. In reference to bribes, 137, 252. In reference to business 'of Convention, 2281. In reference to calling roll of Convention, 758, 851, 883, 2205, 2229, 2281, 2357. In reference to call of Convention, 412, 733. In reference to capacity of Erie canal, 2206, 2216. In reference to care of disabled soldiers, 1375, 1514, 2660. In reference to claims against State, 126, 141, 143, 144, 173, 264. In reference to closing consideration of separate articles on report of committee on submission, and in reference to final reading of Constitution, 3865, 3894. In reference to closing debate on report on organization of Legislature, etc., 818. In reference to commencement of fiscal year, 643. In reference to compensation for indexing journal, etc., 3874. In reference to compensation of clergymen, 3918. In reference to compensation of members of Legislature, 144. In reference to compensation of stenographer, 145. In reference to compulsory education, 102. In reference to consideration of reports of committee on revision, 3527. In reference to consolidation of railroad companies, 416. In reference to contracts, 185. In reference to correction of document, 143. In reference to court of appeals, 139. In reference to court of claims, 138. In reference to creation of corporations, 143. In reference to creation of Governor's council, 897. In reference to cumulative voting, 702. In reference to death of Hon. David L. Seymour, 1972. In reference to death of Hon. L. BH Hiscock, 27, 28, In reference to death penalty, 851. INDEX. clxxxix In reference to debate, 935. 1069. In reference to debate in committee of the whole, 2392, 2425. ' In reference to debate on motions to recommit with instructions, 3538. In reference to debate on reports of committees on finances and canals, 1514, 1515, 1529, 1565. In reference to debate on report of committee on organization of Legislature, etc., 850. In reference to detention of witnesses, etc., 100. In reference to disfranchisement, 99, 135,X 140, 519. In reference to disposition of papers of Convention, 3874. In reference to disposition of real estate, 216. In reference to divorces, 935. In reference to dock facilities of city of New York, 144. In reference to documents, 882. In reference to donations by Legislature, 193. In reference to drawing seats, 23. In reference to educational qualifications for suffrage, 138. In reference to election of directors of corporations, 144, 446. In reference to election of members of assembly, 120, 290. In reference to election of members of senate and assembly, etc., 100, 102, 136, 284. In reference to employment of clerks by committees, 101. In reference to endowment of married women with certain amount of personal estate of husbands, 647. In reference to enlargement of cities, etc., 416. In reference to establishing bureau of statistics, etc., 184. In reference to establishing court for trial of impeachments, 141. In reference to establishment of corporations, 138. In reference to exemption of property from taxation, 102. In reference to extending privileges of floor, 2693. In reference to extending right of suffrage to Indians, 131. In reference to extending time for collection of taxes, 142. In reference to extension of elective franchise, 101.' In reference to extension of right of suffrage, 101. * In reference to extra compensation, 185. In reference to extra compensation to canal contractors, 195. In reference to fees, etc., State officers, 144. In reference to fees in surrogates' courts, 185. In reference to female suffrage, 134, 165, 233. In reference to final adjournment of Convention, 647, 3283, 3891, 3927. In reference to final report of committee on revision, 3283, 3327. In reference to final report of Convention, 672. In reference to form of insurance policies, 416. In reference to free education, 140. In reference to funded indebtedness of cities, etc., 487. In reference to furnishing school libraries with laws of State, etc., 1417. In reference to gift enterprises, 672. In reference to government of cities, 124, 125. In reference to granting use of hall, 610, 641, 1034. In reference to index of debates, 3846. In reference to index of journal and documents, 3865. In reference to industrial interests, 126. In reference to investment of funds of educational institutions, 199. In reference to irrigation of agricultural lands, etc., 898. In reference to jurisdiction of boards of supervisors, 233, 446, 978. In reference to jurisdiction of courts, 218. In reference to jurisdiction of justices of the peace, 160. In reference to jurisdiction of justices of the peace and county judges, 155. In reference to jurisdiction of the Leg slature, 184. In reference to jury lists, 186. In reference to jury trials, 184, 411. In reference to justices of the peace, etc., 100. cxc INDEX. RESOLUTION- Continued. In reference to labors of Convention, 3415, 3416. In reference to lands within jurisdiction of State, 1033. In reference to last appeal to jury, 192. In reference to leasing Champlain canal, 175. In reference to legal rates of interest, 219. In reference to legislative corruption, 198. In reference to life insurance policies, 254. In reference to life leases of land, 308. In reference to loaning credit of State, 145. In reference to local government of cities, 99. In reference to manner of revision of Constitution, 30. In reference to manner of submission of Constitution, 3913, 3918. In reference to manuals furnished Conventions of other States, 2625. In reference to meeting of Convention in New York, 2492. In reference to members absent without leave, 741, 745. In reference to mode of drawing for seats. 2690, 2691. In reference to mode of payment of debts contracted by the State, 850. In reference to national guard of. the State, 101. I I In reference to organization of national guard, 195. In reference to pardoning power, 184. In reference to pay of absentees, 2778. In reference to pay of members of com. mittee on revision during recess, 3866, 3926. In reference to pensions, 896. In reference to policy of constitutional provision for collecting tolls and taxes due State in specie, 38. In reference to powers and duties of county courts, 100. In reference to powers of the Governor, 159. In reference to practice of medicine, 1132, 2074. 2926, 2970, 2971. In reference to printing, 124. In reference to printing articles referred to committee on revision, 1179. In reference-to printing debates, 126, 137. In reference to printing extra copies of Constitution, 3913. 3928, 3949. In reference to printing extra copies of debates, 3875. In reference to printing extra copies of report of canal investigating committee, 1315, 1629. In reference to printing extra copies of report of committee on town and county officers, etc., 758. In reference to printing report of committee on charities, 1314. In reference to printing report of committee on judiciary, 1314. In reference to printing revised work of committee on revision. 2624. In reference to procuring copies of council of revision, 1315. In reference to prohibiting donations to sectarian institutions, 94, 101. In reference to prohibiting the bonding of towns, etc, 121, 137. In reference to prohibiting the Legislature from passing certain local laws, 252. In reference to prohibiting the Legislature from passing special laws, 120. In reference to prohibition of extra compensation, 99. In reference to prohibition of sale of intoxicating liquors, 218. In reference to prohibition of special legislation for certain objects, 447. In reference to publication of Constitution and forms of ballots, 3926, 3946. In reference to number constituting quorum, 2778. In reference to number of tax payers in city of New York, 100, 126. In reference to obtaining hall for Convention, 2494, 2495, 2528. In reference to officers of Convention accepting positions in Legislature, 2693. In reference to open ballot, 978, 1035. In reference to operation of excise law, 288. In reference to order of business of Convention, 452, 453, 674, 817, 1069. In reference to order of debate on report of committee on organization of Legislature, etc., 647. In reference to organization of courts, 140, 143, 155, 156. In reference to organization of court of appeals, 175. In reference to organization of Legislature, 160, 173. INDEX. In reference to public schools, 121. In reference to punishment of criminals, 183. In reference to recess during sessions, 1723. In reference to reducing tolls on canals, 1530. In reference to referring articles to committee on revision, 1179. In reference to refunding moneys expended by United States in putting down rebellion, 672. In reference to regulation of sale of liquors, 143, 264, 303, 306. I In reference to reorganization of courts, 216. In reference to reports of committees, 935, 1011. In reference to representation in Legislature, 100. In reference to restriction, etc., of laws, 176. In reference to revision of article on right of suffrage, 622. In reference to revision of bills, etc., 158. In reference to right of suffrage, 100, 101, 121, 124, 138, 363, 391. In reference to right to catch fish, 198. In reference to right to testify, 1 95. In reference to rights of married women, and the testimony of persons accused, in criminal cases, 120. In reference to salaries of members of Legislature, 416. In reference to sale of public property, 218. In reference to sale of State canals, 2688. In reference to salt reservations, 125, 173. In reference to school tax, 1778. In reference to sending copy of proceed. ings to State Convention of Virginia, 2019. In reference to sending of bills, 175. In reference to separate submission of article on suffrage, 2059. In reference to sessions of Convention, 217, 233, 266, 644, 852, 1134, 1315, 1778, 1779, 1781, 2393. In reference to signing Constitution, 3283, 3327, 3891, 3927. In reference to State prisons, 142, 183. In reference to striking out eighth section of article sixth of Constitution, 192. In reference to submission of amendments to Federal Constitution to Legislature, 412., In reference to supplying members of Convention with proceedings of Convention pf 1846, 25. In reference to suppression of bribery and corruption, 2529, 2568. In reference to tariff on railroads, 233, 266. In reference to taxation, 124, 138, 160. In rcference to taxes, 2216. In reference to term of citizenship, 144. In reference to term of office, etc., of Senators and Assemblymen, 126. In reference to testimony of accused per. sons, 135. In reference to testing capacity of locks, 1513. In reference to the imposition of fines, 233. In reference to the measure of capacity based upon weight, 173. In reference to time of submission of Constitution, 3893, 3906, 3911, 3928. In reference to tolls on canals, 2568. In reference to tolls on railroads, 175, In reference to town meetings, 143. In reference to trials by courts-martial, 174. In reference to uniformity of laws relating to elective franchise, 102. In reference to uniform system of suffrage, 279. In reference to verdicts and prohibition of fees, 101, 252. In reference to veto power, 175, 218. In reference to vote on amendments under consideration, 701. In reference to withholding light of suffrage, 173. In relation to submission of Constitution, resolution to transmit copy of to Legislature, 3949. Instructing Attorney-General to commence proceedings to vacate fraudulent contracts, 1628, 1680. Instructing canal committee to make in. vestigations in reference to locks of canals, 1568. Instructing committee of the whole to consider substitute for sections six and eight of report of judiciary committee, 2205. 4 excii INDEX. RESOLUTION-Continued. Instructing committee of the whole to report on reports of committees on finances and canals, 1515. Instructing committee on judiciary to report a judicial system to Convention, 1193. Instructing committee on judiciary to report article on judiciary complete, 3435. Instructing committee on powers and duties of Legislature, in reference to passage of bills, 124. Instructing committee on preamble and bill of rights to amend eleventh section of article first of Constitution, 1175. Instructing committee on revision to add section to article on right of suffrage, 2205. Instructing committee on revision to amend article in reference to powers and duties of Governor, 1194. Instructing committee on revision to amend article on corporations other than municipal, 2660. Instructing committee on revision to amend article on counties, towns and villages, etc., 1179, 1271, 1911, 1918. Instructing committee on revision to amend article on finance, 2443. Instructing committee on revision to amend article on militia and military officers, 1234, 1864, 1911. Instructing committee on revision to amend article on organization of Legislature, 936, 1180, 1181, 1195, 1362. Instructing committee on revision to amend article on right of suffrage, 622, 1911, 2815. Instructing committee on revision to amend article on taxation, 2443. Instructing committee on revision to amend article on town and county officers, 1134, 1180. Instructing committee on revision to amend section one of article on counties, towns, etc., 1180, 1181. Instructing committee on revision to amend section five of article on organization of Legislature, 1134. Instructing committee on revision to amend section of report on town and county officers, 1181. Instructing committee on revision to strike" out first section of article reported by committee on counties, towns, etc., 1179, 1723. Instructing committee on revision to strike out provisions in reference to assessment of taxes, 2358. Instructing committee to report, 2098. Instructing Secretary of Convention to furnish copy of debates to Secretary of Georgia Convention, 2815. Instructing Secretary to forward documents, etc., to delegates during recess, 1969. Instructing Secretary to furnish reporters with copy of debates, 3922. Limiting debate in Convention on report of committee on judiciary, 2625. Of inquiry in reference to canals, 166. Of inquiry in reference to canals and amendments to same, 22, 23. Of inquiry in reference to non-reception of printed documents, 251. Of inquiry to Auditor of canal department in reference to cost of Champlain canal, 144, 159, 640, 646. Of inquiry to Auditor of canal department in reference to extra compensation to State contractors, 195, 198. Of inquiry to board of commissioners of metropolitan fire department in reference to number of men in the department, etc., 1805, 1829, 1862. Of inquiry to board of commissioners of metropolitan police in reference to number of police force, etc., 1804, 1828. Of inquiry to Canal Commissioners in reference to breaks in Erie canal, 646, 701. Of inquiry to clerk of common council of city of New York in reference to rights and franchises of city, 646, 671. Of inquiry to clerk of court of appeals in reference to funds and securities, 99, 121. Of inquiry to clerks of courts in reference to causes pending therein, 94, 182. Of inquiry to clerks of courts, etc., in reference to indictments, etc., and estreated bail, 125. Of inquiry to commissioners of board of excise in reference to number of licenses granted, etc., 1805, 1828, 1862, 1910. INDEX cxciii Of inquiry to commissioners of land-office in reference to land belonging to common school fund, 486, 646. Of inquiry to commissionersiof land-office in reference to lands donated by State, 851. Of inquiry to commissioners of land-office in reference to their proceedings, 306, 363. Of inquiry to commissioners of metropolitan police in reference to number of men detailed as attendants upon police courts, etc., 643, 672. Of inquiry to committee on corporations other than municipal in reference to gas companies, 160. Of inquiry to committee on militia and military officers in reference to the national guard, 145. Of inquiry to Comptroller and Auditor in reference to canals, 217, 234. Of inquiry to Comptroller in reference to common school fund, 138, 160. Of inquiry to Comptroller in reference to real estate, etc., 1013, 1033. Of inquiry to Comptroller in reference to stock deposited with him, 852. Of inquiry to Comptroller of city of New York in reference to amounts paid to charitable institutions, 288. Of inquiry to Comptroller of city of New York in reference to annual revenue and expenses of the city, 288, 307, 626. Of inquiry to Comptroller of city of New York, in reference to salaries of judges of in city of New York, etc., 198, 218. Of inquiry to corporation counsel of city of New York, in reference to suits and judgments against city, 646, 673. Of inquiry to county clerks in reference to causes in courts, etc., 94, 135. Of inquiry to county clerks in reference to indictments, etc., 99, 121. Of inquiry to county treasurers in reference to forfeited bail, 99, 121. Of inquiry to Governor in reference to pardons, 94, 125, 176. Of inquiry to Secretary of State in reference to Indian tribes, 120,-138. Of inquiry to Secretary of State in reference to leases given by the State, 307, 364. Of inquiry to Secretary of State in reference to population, etc., 94. 25 Of inquiry to Senate committee in reference to canals, 142, 183. Of inquiry to State Engineer and Surveyor in reference to canals, 139. Of inquiry to State Engineer and Surveyor in reference to construction, etc., of railroad along the upper Hudson, 852. Of inquiry to State Engineer and Surveyor in reference to extension of Chenango canal, 643, 672. Of inquiry to State Engineer and Surveyor in reference to lands sold by certain railroad companies, 852. Of inquiry to State Engineer in reference to railroad freights, 144, 170. Of inquiry to superintendent of Onondaga salt springs in reference to salt, its manufacture, etc., 144. Of inquiry to superintendent of public instruction in reference to common schools, 217,.234, 284. Of inquiry to tax commissioners of city of New York in reference to value of real estate owned by religious denominations, 363, 646. Of instruction to committee on education to amend article on education, in reference to free schools, 3004, 3803, 3809, 3813, 3814. Of instruction to committee on preamble and bill of rights to amend article in reference to use of canals by government, 1175. Of instruction to committee on revision to amend article on canals, in reference to superintendent of public works, 3064. Of instruction to committee on revision to amend article on corporations, in refer. ence to consolidation of railroad companies, 1109, 2660. Of instruction to committee on revision to amend article on corporations, in reference to literary or benevolent corporations, 3020, 3065. Of instruction to committee on revision to amend article on counties, towns, etc., in reference to money raised for support of poor, 1271. Of instruction to committee on revision to amend article on counties, towns, etc., in reference to taxation, 1911. Of instruction to committee on revision to amend article on counties, towns, etc., in reference to town, county or village aid to corporations, 1179, 1180. cxciv INDEX. k I i i i I ii i i P i I i I I I RESOLUTION- Continued. Of instruction to committee on revision to amend article on education, in reference to capital of educational funds, 3799. Of instruction to committee on revision to amend article on education, in reference to compulsory education, 3812. Of instruction to committee on revision to amend article on education, in reference to Cornell University, 3020. Of instruction to committee on revision to amend article on education, in reference to investment of educational funds, 3005, 3065, 3799, 3814. Of instruction to committee on revision to amend article on finance, in reference to bonds issued by State, 3757. Of instruction to committee on revision to amend article on finance, in reference to canal debt, 3700. Of instruction to committee on revision to amend article on finance, in reference to disposition of canal revenues, 3100, 3765. Of instruction to committee on revision to amend article on finance, in reference to erection of new capitol, 3766. Of instruction to committee on revision to amend article on finance, in reference to improvement of canals, 3703, 3741. Of instruction to committee on revision to amend article on finance, in reference to investment of State funds in stocks, 3764. Of instruction to committee on revision to amend article on finance, in reference to payment of State debt in coin, 2443. Of instruction to committee on revision to amend article on finance, in reference to State aid to corporations, 3764, 3768. Of instruction to committee on revision to amend article on finance, in reference to State claims, 3743. Of instruction to committee on revision to amend article on finance, in reference to State debt contracted for specific purpose, 3753, 3754. Of instruction to committee on revision to amend article on finance, in reference to taxation, 2443, 3755, 3757, 3760. Of instruction to committee on revision to amend article on future amendments to Constitution, in reference to future amendments thereto, 2971, 3018. Of instruction to committee on revision to amend article on future amendments to Constitution in reference to future Constitutional Conventions, 3826, 3827. Of instruction to committee on revision to amend article on Governor, Lieut.-Gov ernor, etc., in reference to election of Governor and Lieut.-Governor, 3621. Of instruction to committee on revision to amend article on Governor, Lieut.-Governor, etc., in reference to pardoning power of Governor, 3618. Of instruction to committee on revision to amend article on Governor, Lieut.-Governor, etc., in reference to powers and duties of Governor, 3612, 3614, 3617. Of instruction to committee on revision to amend article on Governor, Lieut..Governor, etc., in reference to salary of Governor, 3612. Of instruction to committee on revision to amend article on Governor, Lieut.-Governor, etc, in reference to salary of Lieut.-Governor, 3619. Of instruction to committee on revision to amend article on Governor, Lieut.-Governor, etc., in reference to signing bills by Governor, 1194, 3619. Of instruction to committee oa revision to amend article on Governor, Lieut.-Governor, etc., in reference to special sessions of Legislature, 3613, 3614, 3515, 3617. Of instruction to committee on revision to amend article on Governor, Lieut.-Governor, etc., in reference to treason, 3618. Of instruction to committee on revision to amend article on judiciary, in reference to appointment of judicial officers, 3723, 3732. Of instruction to committee on revision to amend article on judiciary, in reference to appointment of judiciary by the people, 3722. Of instruction to committee on revision to amend article on judiciary, in reference to commissioners of appeals, 2689. Of instruction to committee on revision to amend article on judiciary, in reference to compensation of judicial officers, 3721. Of instruction to committee on revision to amend article on judiciary in reference to county judge, 3738. INDEX. Of instruction to committee on revision to amend article on judiciary in reference to court of appeals, 3738. Of instruction to committee on revision to amend article on judiciary in reference to courts of record, 3734, 3736. Of instruction to committee on revision to amend article on judiciary in reference to decisions arising under Code of Procedure, 3730. Of instruction to committee on revision to amend article on judiciary in reference to election of judges, 3707, 3720, 3724, 3738. Of instruction to committee on revision to amend article on judiciary in reference to election of justices of the peace, 3732. Of instruction to committee on revision to amend article on judiciary in reference to general terms of supreme court, 3710, 3711, 3712. Of instruction to committee on revision to amend article on judiciary in reference to impeachment of judicial officers, 3732. Of instruction to committee on revision to amend article on judiciary in reference to judges of court of appeals, 3706, 3737. Of instruction to committee on revision to amend article on judiciary in reference to judges of court of appeals and supreme court, 3717. Of instruction to committee on revision to amend article on judiciary in reference to judges of supreme court, 3708. Of instruction to committee on revision to amend article on judiciary in reference to justices of general terms, 3712. Of instruction to committee on revision to amend article on judiciary in reference to moneys paid into court, 3728, 3730. Of instruction to committee on revision to amend article on judiciary in reference to reviewal of decisions, 3713, 3714, 3716, 3717. Of instruction to committee on revision to amend article on judiciary in reference to salary of county judge, 3734, 3736. Of instruction to committee on revision to amend article on judiciary in reference to salary of surrogate, 3734. CXCv Of instruction to committee on revision to amend article on judiciary in reference to submitting appointment of judiciary to the people, 3722. Of instruction to committee on revision to amend article on judiciary in reference to supreme court, 3709. Of instruction to committee on revision to amend article on judiciary in reference to surrogate, 2971, 3004, 3739. Of instruction to committee on revision to amend article on judiciary in reference to tenure of office of judges, 3707, 3732. Of instruction to committee on revision to amend article on judiciary in reference to trial by jury of issues in surrogates' courts, 3724. Of instruction to committee on revision to amend article on judiciary in reference to unconstitutional laws, 3065. Of instruction to committee on revision to amend article on judiciary in reference to vacancies in court of appeals, 3727. Of instruction to committee on revision to amend article on judiciary in reference to vacancies in supreme court, 3734. Of instruction to committee on revision to amend article on militia in reference to organization of militia, 1234. Of instruction to committee on revision to amend article on militia of State in reference to annual enrollment, 3678. Of instruction to committee on revision to amend article on militia of State in reference to appointment of officers, 3691, 3693. Of instruction to committee on revision to amend article on militia of State in reference to exemption from militia, 3686, 3688. Of instruction to committee on revision to amend article on militia of State in reference to national guard, 3686, 3689, 3693. Of instruction to committee on revision to amend article on official corruption in reference to bribes, 3824. Of instruction to committee on revision to amend article on official corruption in reference to payment of expenses of prosecutions for bribery, 3822. Of instruction to committee on revision to amend article on official corruption in reference to prosecutions for bribery, 3820. cxcvi INDEX. RESOLUTION- Continued. Of instruction to committee on revision to amend article on organization of Legislature in reference to adjournments of Legislature, 3594. Of instruction to committee on revision to amend article on organization of Legislature in reference to aliens, 1180,1195. Of instruction to committee on revision to amend article on organization of Legislature in reference to Assembly districts, 3589, 3591, 3682. Of instruction to committee on revision to amend article on organization of Legislature in reference to census enumeration, 3609, 3682. Of instruction to committee on revision to amend article on organization of Legislature in reference to compensation of Senators while sitting in trial of impeachment, 935, 1013. Of instruction to committee on revision to amend article on organization of Legislature in reference to salary of members of Legislature, 1134, 1181, 1362, 2424, 3591, 3592, 3605. Of instruction to committee on revision to amend article on organization of Legislature in reference to senatorial districts, 3587, 3866.,Of instruction to committee on revision to amend article on organization of Legislature in reference to term of office of Senators, 956, 3587, 3588. Of instruction to committee on revision to amend article on powers and duties of Legislature in reference to eligibility to office of members of. Legislature, 3607. Of instruction to committee on revision to amend article on powers and duties of Legislature in reference to escheat, 3603. Of instruction to committee on revision to amend article on powers and duties of Legislature in reference to guaging and inspecting merchandise, etc., 3601. Of instruction to committee on revision to amend article on powers and duties of Legislature in reference to inspectors of elections, 3602. Of instruction to committee on revision to amend article on powers and duties of Legislature in reference to lotteries, 3601. Of instruction to committee on revision to amend article on powers and duties of Legislature in reference to passage of general laws, 3605. Of instruction to committee on revision to amend article on powers and duties of Legislature in reference to private claims, 3606. Of instruction to committee on revision to amend article on powers and duties of Legislature in reference to street railroads, 3602, 3603, 3604, 3605, 3606, 3608, 3677. Of instruction to committee on revision to amend article on preamble and bill of rights in reference to alienism affecting title to real estate, 3555. Of instruction to committee on revision to amend article on preamble and bill of rights in reference to compensation for land overflowed for manufacturing purposes, 3549. Of instruction to committee on revision to amend article on preamble and bill of rights in reference to criminal prosecutions, 3541. Of instruction to committee on revision to amend article on preamble and bill of rights in reference to detention of witnesses, 3539. Of instruction to committee on revision to amend article on preamble and bill of rights in reference to divorces, 3550, 3602, 3909. Of instruction to committee on revision to amend article on preamble and bill of rights in reference to divorces and lotteries, 3556. Of instruction to committee on revision to amend article on preamble and bill of rights in reference to drains, 3545. Of instruction to committee on revision to amend article on preamble and bill of rights in reference to elective franchise, 3557. Of instruction to committee on revision to amend article on preamble and bill of rights in reference to last appeal to jury, 3542. Of instruction to committee on revision to amend article on preamble and bill of rights in reference to private property taken for public use, 3547, 3549. INDEX. cxcvii Of instruction to committee on revision to amend article on preamble and bill of rights in reference to private roads, 3548. Of instruction to committee on revision to amend article on preamble and bill of rights in reference to right to catch fish in international waters, 3554. Of instruction to committee on revision to amend article on preamble and bill of rights in reference to special laws, 3548. Of instruction to committee on revision to amend article on preamble and bill of rights, in reference to State sovereignty, 3558. Of instruction to committee on revision to amend article on preamble and bill of rights, in reference to taxation, 3066, 3557. Of instruction to committee on revision to amend article on preamble and bill of rights, in reference to tenant of estate of inheritance, 3550. Of instruction to committee on revision to amend article on salt springs, in reference to sale of salt springs, 3770. Of instruction to committee on revision to amend article on Secretary of State, Comptroller, etc., in reference to assistant superintendent of public works, 3638. Of instruction to committee on revision to amend article on Secretary of State, Comptroller, etc., in reference to Canal Commissioners, 3652. Of instruction to committee on revision to amend article on Secretary of State, Comptroller, etc., in reference to canal tolls, 3652. Of instruction to committee on revision to amend article on Secretary of State, Comptroller, etc., in reference to construction of canal bridges by State, 3639, 3640, 3643. Of instruction to committee on revision to amend article on Secretary of State, Comptroller, etc., in reference to contracts, 3651. Of instruction to committee on revision to amend article on Secretary of State, Comptroller, etc., in reference to court of claims, 3646, 3647, 3648. Of instruction to committee on revision to amend article on Secretary of State, Comptroller, etc., in reference to election of Secretary of State and AttorneyGeneral, 3631. Of instruction to committee on revision to amend article on Secretary of State, Comptroller, etc., in reference to railroad commissioners, 3649. Of instruction to committee on revision to amend article on Secretary of State, Comptroller, etc., in reference to State Engineer, 3632. Of instruction to committee on revision to amend article on Secretary of State, Comptroller, etc., in reference to statute of limitations, 3639, 3641, 3642, 3643, 3644, 3645, 3647, 3648. Of instruction to committee on revision to amend article on Secretary of State, Comptroller, etc., in reference to superintendent of public works, 3633, 3634, 3635, 3637, 3641, 3652. Of instruction to committee on revision to amend article on Secretary of State, Comptroller, etc., in reference to term of office of judges of court of claims, 3652. Of instruction to committee on revision to amend article on Secretary of State, Comptroller, etc., in reference to term of office of superintendent of public works, 3652. Of instruction to committee on revision to amend article on Secretary of State, Comptroller, etc., in reference to Treasurer, 3652. Of instruction to committee on revision to amend article on State prisons in reference to superintendent of State prisons, 3817. Of instruction to committee on revision to amend article on suffrage, in reference to bribery at elections, 3583. Of instruction to committee on revision to amend article on suffrage, in reference to disfranchisement, 3565. Of instruction to committee on revision to amend article on suffrage, in reference to education qualification, 3560, 3563. Of instruction to committee on revision to amend article on suffrage, in reference to failure to register, 3578. Of instruction to committee on revision to amend article on suffrage, in reference to female suffrage, 3562. cxcviii C2!CVlll INDEX. RESOLUTION- Continued. Of instruction to committee on revision to amend article on suffrage, in reference to gain or loss of residence in time of war, 622. Of instruction to committee on revision to amend article on suffrage, in reference to penalty for omission to vote, 3585. Of instruction to committee on revision to amend article on suffrage, in reference to proof of right to vote, 1911. Of instruction to committee on revision to amend article on suffrage, in reference to registry law, 623, 641, 644, 3570, 3571, 3577, 3580, 3581, 3582. Of instruction to committee on revision to amend article on suffrage in reference to right of students to vote, 2815, 3570. Of instruction to committee on revision to amend article on suffrage in reference to rights of voters, 2205. Of instruction to committee on revision to amend article on suffrage in reference to uniformity of registry laws, 3574. Of instruction to committee on revision to amend article on town and county officers in reference to appointment of officers, 3662. Of instruction to committee on revision to amend article on town and county officers in reference to bonding of towns, 3676. Of instruction to committee on revision to amend article on town and county officers in reference to city officers, 3663. Of instruction to committee on revision to amend article on town and county officers in reference to members of common councils, 3663. Of instruction to committee on revision to amend article on town and county officers in reference to registers of deeds, 1181. Of instruction to committee on revision to amend article on town and county officers in reference to registers of wills, 3653. Of instruction to committee on revision to amend article on town and county officers mn reference to sheriffs, 3652. Of instruction to committee on revision to amend article on town and county officers in reference to supervisors, 3654, 3655, 3658, 3659, 3660, 3661. Of instruction to committee on revision to amend article on town and county officers in reference to town, county and village aid to corporations, 3663, 3676. Of thanks to mayor and common council of Albany, 3874, 3913. Of thanks to President, 3863. Of thanks to Seventh regiment for offer of armory for use of Convention, 2492. Of thanks to stenographer, 3912. On manner of making motions to recommit articles with instructions, 3537. Providing stationery for reporters, 175, 252, 642. Releasing publishers of Albany Journal and Argus from publication of verbatim reports of proceedings, 1977. Requesting absentees to resign their seats, 2815. Requesting Auditor of canal department to furnish copies of contracts, 252. Requesting Auditor of canal department to furnish copies of contracts for improvement of Champlain canal, 216, 234. Requesting board of commissioners of metropolitan police to furnish copies of annual report, 124. Requesting canal investigating committee to furnish information, 217, 234. Requesting committee on rules to consider rules, and report amendments thereto, 1970. Requesting committee to report as to manner of revision of Constitution, 32. Requesting Comptroller to furnish diagrams, 641. Requesting information from Comptroller in reference to compensation of absentees, 2357. Requesting information of the clerk of court of appeals, 37, 137. Requesting Legislature to amend act calling Convention, 2736. Requesting opinion of Attorney-General in reference to compensation of delegates, 1977. Requesting opinion of Attorney-General in reference to legality of Convention, 2058. Requesting Secretary of State to attend Convention at signing of Constitution, 3929. INDEX. cxcix Requesting Secretary of State to furnish delegates with copies of law under which they were elected, 30. Requesting Secretary to confer with clergy in reference to opening sessions with prayer, 20. Requesting Secretary to notify absentees to attend, 3415, 3416., Requesting Senate committee to furnish evidence, etc., 935, 1011. Requesting State Engineer and Surveyor to make estimate of cost of enlarging locks on Chemung canal and feeder, 30. Requiring two-thirds vote to call previous question on reports of committee on revision, 3624. Supplemental, instructing Attorney-General to commence proceedings to vacate fraudulent contracts, 1680. Tendering thanks of Convention to mayor and authorities of Albany, 2660. To adopt temporarily rules of Assembly, 20. To amend article on education, 3797, 3799, 3803, 3809, 3812, 3813, 3814, 3815. To amend article on finance, 3700, 3703, 3741, 3743, 3753, 3754, 3755, 3756,. 3757, 3760, 3763, 3764, 3765, 3766, 3768, 3769, 3843. To amend article on future amendments to Constitution, 3825, 3826, 3827. To amend article on Governor, Lieut.Governor, etc., 3612, 3613, 3614, 3615, 3617, 3618, 3619, 3621, 3622. To amend article on judiciary, 3706, 3707, 3708, 3709, 3710, 3711, 3712, 3713, 3714, 3716, 3717, 3720, 3721, 3722, 3723, 3724, 3726, 3727, 3728, 3730, 3732, 3733, 3734, 3736, 3737, 3738. To amend article on judiciary, in reference to judges of court of appeals and supreme court, 192. To amend article on militia of State, 3678, 3686, 3688, 3692, 3693. To amend article on organization of Legislature, etc., 3587, 3588, 3589, 3591, 3592, 3594, 3601, 3602, 3603, 3604, 3605, 3606, 3607, 3608, 3682, 3866. To amend article on preamble and bill of rights, 3066, 3539, 3541, 3542, 3545, 3547, 3548, 3549, 3550, 3554, 3555, 3556. To amend article on salt springs of State, 3770. To amend articio on Secretary of State, Comptroller, etc., 3631, 3632, 3633, 3634, 3635, 3636, 3637, 3638, 3639, 3640, 3641, 3642, 3643, 3644, 3645, 3646, 3647, 3648, 3649, 3651, 3652. To amend article on State prisons, 3817, 3819, 3820, 3822, 3824. To amend article on suffrage, 3560, 3562, 3563, 3565, 3570, 3571, 3574, 3577, 3580, 3581, 3582, 3583, 3585. To amend article on town and county officers, 3653, 3654, 3655, 3658, 3659, 3660, 3661, 3662, 3663, 3676, 3677. To amend Constitution in reference to capital punishment, etc., 126. To amend Constitution in reference to imposition of taxes, 126. To amend Constitution in reference to juries, 127. To amend Constitution in reference to organization of Legislature, 101. To amend Constitution in reference to right of suffrage, 138. To amend Constitution in reference to testimony of accused persons, 140. To amend preamble of Cohstitution, 41. To amend report of committee on amendments to and submission of Constitution, 3876. To amend section of article on organization of Legislature, etc., 935, 1013. To amend twenty-second rule, 1977. To apply to State Librarian of Massachusetts for copies of debates on license and prohibition, 175, 217. To appoint committee in reference to adjourning Convention to Saratoga, 25, 161, 358. To appoint committee in reference to official corruption, 139, 158. To appoint committee in reference to reporting debates, 25. To appoint committee on charities, 38. To appoint committee on claims against State, 38. To appoint committee on educational interests, 37. To appoint committee on female suffrage, 38, 126. To appoint committee on Indian tribes, 38. To appoint committee on industrial interests, 36. To appoint committee on submission of Constitution, 2814. cc INDEX. RESOLUTION-Continued. To appoint committee to ascertain what suitable public halls can be obtained in New York for use of Convention, 2216, 2446, 2494, 2527. To appoint committee to ascertain whether the work of the Convention can be completed before the fall election, 1864. To appoint committee to audit unsettled Convention accounts, 3110, 3371. To appoint committee to confer with common council of Albany in reference to hall for Convention, 2424, 2443, 2479. To appoint committee to inquire as to power of Convention to impose penalties, 883. To appoint committee to prepare address showing changes in Constitution, 3777, 3865. To appoint committee to print State Constitution with comparative notes and references, 23. To appoint committee to report code of rules, 20. To appoint committee to report in reference to prohibition of sale of intoxicating liquors, 93, 94, 127, 141. To appoint committee to report mode of submission of amendments to Constitution, 363, 392. To appoint committee to report what offices may be abolished, 37, 102. To appoint committee to report whether Convention is constitutionally called, 30. To appoint Frank M. Jones assistant sergeant-at-arms, 2693, 2736. To appoint Hiram T. French assistant sergeant-at-arms, 2803. To appoint J. H. Kemper assistant sergeant-at-arms, 20. To appoint P. J. Hotailing postmaster, 21. To appoint President pro tern., 689. To appoint select committee to prepare document showing changes in Constitution, 3283, 3412. To appoint select committee to report best mode of proceeding to revise Constitution, 20. To authorize committee to sit during recess, 1970. To close debate on report of committee on suffrage, 321, 322, 351, 355. To close street between capitol and Congress hall, 758, 850. To consider report of committee on right of suffrage, 199. To continue rule in reference to debates, 640. To create bureau of corporations, 322. To deposit documents in State library, 640. To discharge committee of the whole from consideration of report of committee on Governor, Lieut.-Governor, etc., 896. To discharge committee of the whole from consideration of report of committee on organization of Legislature, etc., 640. To discharge committee of the whole from consideration of report of committee on organization of Legislature, etc., with instructions, 675. To discharge committee on contingent expenses from consideration of resolution to bind Constitution, etc., 851. To divide the State into districts, 1234. To expunge proceedings declaring certain members of Convention in contempt, 758. Called up by Mr. Archer, 850. To extend privileges of Convention to judges of court of appeals, 30. To extend privileges of floor to Chief Justice Chase, 251. To extend privileges of floor to Hon. John T. Hoffman, mayor of city of New York, 251. To extend privileges of floor to mayor of city of Albany, 93. To furnish board of regents and State Library with debates and manual of Convention, 3927. To furnish copy of debates to officers and members of Legislature, 3926. To grant use of chamber to L. Sherwood, Esq., 1680. To grant use of hall to equal rights association, 199. To have copies of reports of debates placed'on file of Convention, 41. To have street adjoining Capitol strewn with bark, 37. To instruct assistant sergeant-at-arms to act as postmaster, 21. To instruct committee on revision to amend article on canal management, 3064. To instruct committee on revision to amend article on corporations, 3020, 3065. To instruct committee on revision to amend article on education, etc., 3004, 3005, 3020, 3065. IND To instruct committee on revision to amend article on future amendments, etc., of Constitution, 2971, 3018. To instruct committee on revision to amend article on Governor, Lieut.-Governor, etc., as adopted, 1109. To instruct committee on revision to amend article on judiciary, 2971, 3004, 3065. To instruct committee on revision to amend article on right of suffrage, in reference to registry, 623, S41, 644. To limit debate in committee of the whole on report of committee on judiciary, 2527. To limit debate in Convention upon article relating to cities, 3109. To limit debate on report of committee on finances and canals, 1629. To limit debate on reports. of committees, 1830. To pay expenses of committee appointed in referenceto Convention meeting in any other city than Albany, 3866. To pay janitors of City Hall for services rendered Convention, 3863. To perfect article on judiciary, 2494, 2529. To postpone action in Convention on article on State finances, 1948. To postpone proposition for separate submission to the people, 279, 283, 392. To print articles referred to committee on revision, 978, 2660. To print Constitution for use of members, 3867. To print extra copies of report of committee on bribery and corruption, 2567. To print report of Auditor of canal department, 307. To print rules reported by committee on rules, 42. To proceed with final reading of Constitution, 3928. To procure diagrams of chamber, 37. To prohibit further appropriations for building new State capitol, 416. To recommit article on finance to committee on revision for final engrossment, 3769. To reconsider motion reconsidering vote rejecting report on adulterated liquors, 3624. To reconsider resolution to accept proposition of Commercial National Bank of 26 Albany, in reference to compensation of delegates, etc., 2170. To refer propositions for alterations of rules, etc., to committee on rules, 883. To refer report of prison association to committee on State prisons, 156. To refer resolution in reference to call of * Convention to committee, 737. To refer resolution in reference to taxation to committee on revision, 2625. To refer to select committee, subject to revision of Constitution, 30. To remove limitation of compensation for publication of debates, 3575. To remove partitions in chamber, 25. To reprint document No. 30, 487. To restore partition in chamber, 1704. To restrict debate on report of committee on right of suffrage, 364. To return communication of commissioners of canal fund, 166. To send copy of debates to Convention of North Carolina, 3771. To submit Constitution at general election in 1868, 3575. To submit property qualification at general election in 1869, 3575. To take votes on reconsideration without debate, 3110. To transmit copy of resolution in relation to submission of Constitution, to Legislature, 3949. RESTRICTIONS UPON AGREED PRICE OF PROPERTY PROHIBITED, Remarks of Mr. S. Townsend on, 3264. RESTRICTIONS UPON CITIES, Remarks of Mr. Alvord on, 3166. " 'W. C. Brown on, 3167. " Daly on, 3167. it Francis on, 3165. " Murphy on, 3165. (" Opdyke on, 3166. {" Pond on, 3167. REVENUES AND EXPENSES OF THE CITY OF NEW YORK, Resolution of inquiry to comptroller of New York city in reference to, 288,307, 626. REVIEWAL OF DECISIONS, Resolution of instruction to committee on revision to amend article on judiciary in reference to, 3713; 3714, 3716, 3717. INDEX, ccii REVIEWAL BY JUDGES OF THEIR OWN DECISIONS, Amendment of Mr. Andrews in reference to, 3713. Amendment of Mr. Barker in reference to, 2434. Amendment of Mr. Comstock in reference to, 2436, Amendment of Mr. Farnum in reference to, 3716. Amendment of Mr. Harris in reference to, 3713. Amendment of Mr. Krum in reference to, 2436. Amendment of Mr. Lapham in reference to, 3714. Amendment of Mr. More in reference to, 3717. Amendment of Mr. Rumsey in reference to, 2434. Amendment of Mr. Stratton in reference to, 2709. REVISION, Debate on report of committee on, on article on banking and corporations, 3814. Debate on report of committee on, on article on education, 3795 to 3817. Debate on report of committee on, on article on finance, 3698 to 3705, 3741 to 3769. Debate on report of committee on, on article on future amendments of Constitution, 3825 to 3828. Debate on report of committee on, on article on Governor and LieutenantGovernor, 3610. Debate on report of. committee on, on article on judiciary, 3705 to 3739. Debate on report of committee on, on article on Legislature, its organization, 3678. Debate on report of committee on, on article on militia of State, 3686 to 3690, 3691 to 3698. Debate on report of committee on, on article on official corruption, 3820. Debate on report of committee on, on article on preamble and bill of rights, 3529 to 3560. Debate on report of committee on, on article on salt springs of State, 3777 to 3788. Debate on report of committee on, on article on Secretary of State, Comptrol. ler, etc., 3631 to 3653. Debate on report of committee on, on article on State prisons, 3817 to 3825. Debate on report of committee on, on article on suffrage, 3560 to 3586. Debate on report of committee on, on article on town and county officers, 3653. Final report of committee on, on article on education, 3843. Final report of committee on, on article on finance, 3771. Final report of committee on, on article on future amendments of Constitution, 3843. Final report of committee on, on article on Governor, Lieut.-Governor, etc., 3628. Final report of committee on, on article on judiciary, 3773. Final report of committee on, on article on militia of State, 3705. Final report of committee on, on article on organization of Legislature, etc., 3624. Final report of committee on, on article on Secretary of State, Comptroller, etc., 3672. Final report of committee on, on article on State prisons, 3845. Final report of committee on, on article on town and county officers, 3690. Remarks on resolution instructing committee on, to strike out first section of article reported by committee on counties, towns, etc., 1723. Report of committee on, on article on corporations, etc., 3844. Report of committee on, on article on militia of State, 3677. Report of committee on, on article on official corruption,. 3845. Report of committee on, on article on salt springs of the State, 3769. Report of committee on, on article on Secretary of State, Comptroller, etc., 3622. Report of committee on, on article on town and county officers, debate on, 3653 to 3665, 3674 to 3677. Resolution authorizing committee on to meet during adjournment of Convention, 2661. INDEX. cciii Resolution in reference to article on militia of State, reported by committee on, 3696. Resolution in reference to articles printed as prepared by committee on, 978. Resolution in reference to consideration of report of committee on, 3527. Resolution in reference to final report of committee on, 3283, 3327. Resolution in reference to pay of members of committee on,.during recess, 3866, 3926. Resolution in reference to printing articles referred to committee on, 1179. Resolution in reference to printing revised work of committee on, 2624. Resolution in reference to referring committee on, 1179. Resolution instructing committee on, in reference to article on right of suffrage, 622. Resolution instructing committee on, to add section to article on right of suffrage, 2205. Resolution instructing committee on, to add to article on judiciary, 2689. Resolution instructing committee on, to amend article in reference to powers and duties of Governor, 1194. Resolution instructing committee on, to amend article on corporations other than municipal, 2660. Resolution instructing committee on, to amend article on counties, towns, etc., 1179. 1911. Resolution instructing committee on, to amend article on Governor and Lieut.. Governor as adopted, 1109. Resolution instructing committee on, to amend article on militia and military officers, 1234, 1864, 1911. Resolution instructing committee on, to amend article on organization of Legislature, 936, 1180, 1181. Resolution instructing committee on, to amend article on right of suffrage, 1911. Resolution instructing committee on, to amend article on town and county officers, 1134, 1180. Resolution instructing committee on, to amend section one of article on counties, towtI, etc.. 1180, 1181. Resolution instructing committee on, to amend section five of article on organization of Legislature, 1134. Resolution instructing committee on, to amend section of report on town and county officers, 1181. Resolution instructing committee on, to strike out first section of article reported by committee on counties, towns, etc. 1179. Resolution to print articles referred to committee on, 2660. Resolution to refer resolution in reference to taxation to committee on, 2625. REVISION OF CONSTITUTION, Report of committee on mode of proceeding with reference to, 36. Resolutions in reference to manner of, 30. Resolution requesting committee to report as to manner of, 32. Resolution to refer subject o, to select committee, 30. REYNOLDS, WILLIAM A., A delegate from the twenty-eighth senatorial district, 289, 1893. Appointed member of committee on contingent expenses, 96. Appointed member of committee on future amendments to Constitution, to fill vacancy, 1291. Appointed member of committee to provide for care of disabled soldiers of State, 1531, Communication in reference to minority representation, presented by, 1624. Communication in reference to sending copy of debates to Ottawa, Canada, presented by, 2136.. Oath of office taken by, 18. Remarks of, on report of committee on contingent expenses in reference to furnishing stationery to reporters, 628. Remarks of, on report of committee on town and county officers, etc., 902, 951. Remarks of, on resolution instructing committee on revision to amend article on town and county officers, 1180. Resolution in reference to prohibiting the bonding of towns, 137. Resolution instructing committee on revision to amend article on town and county officers, 1134, 1180. cciv 1IN J RICHARDSON, WILLIAM, Appointed messenger, 29. RIGHT OF STUDENTS TO VOTE, Resolution of instruction to committee on revision to amend article on suffrage in reference to, 2815, 3570. RIGHT OF SUFFRAGE, Resolution instructing committee on revision to amend article on, 1911. RIGHT TO VOTE, Resolution of instruction to committee on revision to amend article on suffrage in reference to proof of, 1911. RIGHITS AND FRANCHISES OF CITY OF NEW YORK, Remarks on resolution of inquiry to clerk of common council of New York in reference to, 671, 672. Resolution of inquiry'in reference to, 646, 671. RIGHT OF VOTERS, Resolution of instruction to committee on revision to amend article on suffrage in reference to, 2205. ROBERTSON, ANTHONY L., A delegate from the seventh senatorial district, 32, 137, 1271, 1295, 1317, 2551, 2634, 2790, 2803, 3523, 3568, 3579, 3713. Appointed member of committee on future amendments of Constitution, 96.' Appointed member of committee on powers and duties of Legislature, etc., 95. Appointed member of committee to prepare address showing changes in Constitution, 3876. Minority report from committee on powers and duties of Legislature, submitted by, 1229. Oath of office taken by, 18. Remarks of, in reference to amending journal, 2491. Remarks of, on amendments to report of committee on suffrage, 490. Remarks of, on joint report of committee on currency, banking, etc., and corporations other than municipal, 1069. Remarks of, on postponement of consideration of report of committee on powers and duties of Legislature, 1271, 1272, 1289. EX. Remarks of, on report of committees on finances and canals, 1890, 3515. * Remarks of, on report of committee on Governor, Lieut.-Governor, etc., 894. Remarks of, on report of committee on judiciary, 2548, 2549. Remarks of, on report of committee on militia and military officers, 1218, 1228, Remarks of, on report of committee on organization of Legislature, etc., 860. Remarks of, on report of committee on powers and duties of Legislature, 1317, 2765, 2766, 2770, 2784, 2802.1 Remarks of, oi report of committee on suffrage, 541, 559, 588, 593. Remarks of, on resolution to appoint committee to report mode of submission of amendments to Constitution, 405. Remarks of, on taxation, 3499. Resolution in refererence to claims against State, 173. Resolution in reference to extension of right of suffrage, 102. Resolution in reference to funded indebtedness of cities, etc., 487. Resolution in reference to testimony of accused persons, 135. ROGERS, HENRY, A delegate form the fifth senatorial district. Appointed member of committee on contingent expenses, 96. Oath of office taken by, 18. ROLFE, JOHN P., A delegate from the second senatorial district. Appointed member of committee on salt springs, 96. Appointed member of committee on town and county officers, etc., 95. Oath of office taken by, 18. ROLL CALL OF CONVENTION, 18, 321, 380, 412, 413, 444, 574, 716, 724, 1057, 1194, 1348, 1375, 1563, 1606, 1607, 1778, 1814, 1950, 1951, 1954, 2079, 2568, 2591, 2735, 3527, 3565, 3599, 3867, 3896, 3908. Resolution in reference to, 758, 851, 883, 2205, 2281, 2357. ROOT ELIAS, A delegate from the twenty-first senatorial district. Remarks of, on report of committee on cities, 3152. INDEX. CCV Appointed member of committee on canals, 95. Oath of office taken by, 18. Petition in favor of abolishing office of regents of university, presented by, 1375. Resolution authorizing committee on canals to take testimony, 144. ROY, JAMES, A delegate from the thirteenth senatorial district. Appointed member of committee on town and county officers, etc., 95. Oath of office taken by, 18. Report from committee on adulteration and sale of liquors, presented by, 2274. RULE, Additional, offered, 2074. In reference to debates, resolution to continue, 640. Motion to amend, in reference to order of business of Convention, 849. Remarks on motion to amend, in reference to order of business of Convention, 849. RULE TWENTY-SECOND, Resolution to amend, 1977. RULES, Committee on, authorized to print their report, 30. Committee on, consideration of report of, 42. Mr. Ballard appointed member of committee on, 33. Mr. M. I. Townsend excused from serving on committee on, 31. Report from committee on, 33. Report of committee on, 2058, 2080. Resolution for, in reference to business of Convention, 155. Resolution instructing committee on, to consider rules and report amendments thereto, 1970. Resolution to appoint committee to report code of, 20. Resolution to refer propositions for alterations of rules to committee on, 883. Supplementary report from committee on, 3538. RULES OF ASSEMBLY, Adopted temporarily, 20. RULESON, HERMIAN, Appointed doorkeeper, 29. Oath of office taken by, 33. RUMSEY, DAVID, A delegate from the twenty-seventh senatorial district, 531, 937, 983, 1168, 1217, 1288, 1314, 1320,1321,1364, 1378,1387, 1768, 1799, 2100, 2435, 2650, 2756, 2761, 2772, 2774, 2902, 2917, 3169, 3171, 3178, 3179, 3224, 3240, 3497, 3570, 3604, 3627, 3661, 3665, 3674. Appointed member of committee on powers and duties of Legislature, etc., 95. Communication from Comptroller, in reference to charitable institutions, presented by, 2258. Oath of office taken by, 18. Petition in favor of abolishing office of regents of university, presented by, 1460. Petition in reference to prohibiting donations to sectarian institutions, presented by, 625. Remarks of, on communication from Comptroller in reference to charitable institutions, 2258. Remarks of, on joint report of committee on currency, banking, etc., and corporations other than municipal, 1022, 1023. Remarks of, on motion to reconsider vote adopting article on preamble and bill of rights, 3322. Remarks of, on postponement of consideration of report of committee on powers and duties of Legislature, 1291. Remarks of, on report of committee on Attorney-General, etc., 1285, 1287. Remarks of, on report of committee on counties, towns, etc., 1137, 1168. Remarks of, on report of committee on education, 2916. Remarks of, on reports of committees on finances and on canals, 1797, 1877, 1878, 1947, 3518. Remarks of, on report of committee on Governor and Lieutenant-Governor, etc., 1119, 1120. Remarks of, on report of committee on judiciary, 2674. Remarks of, on report of committee on militia and military officers, 1217. Remarks of, on report of committee on official corruption, 3342. Remarks of, on report of committee on organization of Legislature, etc., 712, 713, 864. INDEX. RumSEY, DAVID-Contiaued. I Remarks of, on report of committee on powers and duties of Legislature, 1291, 1293, 1295, 1304, 1319, 1321, 1332, 1374, 1381, 2110, 2126, 2759, 2762. Remarks of, on report of committee on preamble and bill of rights, 3241, 3254, 3255, 3256. Remarks of, on report of committee on revision on article on finance, 3751, 3761. Remarks of, on report of committee on revision on article on organization of Legislature, etc., 3603. Remarks of, on report of committee on revision on article on Secretary of State, Comptroller, etc., 3635. Remarks of, on report of committee on revision on article on town and county officers, 3664. Remarks of, on report of committee on State prisons, etc., 3221. Remarks of, on report of committee on town and county officers, etc., 937, 976, 984, 995. Remarks of, on resolution to postpone action in Convention on article on State finances, 1949. Remarks of, on taxation, 3490. Resolution of instruction to committee on revision to amend article on finance in reference to State claims, 3743. Resolution of instruction to committee on revision to amend article on Governor, Lieutenant-Governor, etc., in reference to powers and duties of Governer, 3612, 3617. Resolution of instruction to committee on revision to amend article on judiciary, in reference to moneys paid into court, 3728. Resolution of instruction to committee on revision to amend article on powers and duties of Legislature in reference to street railroads, 3603. Resolution of instruction to committee on revision to amend article on preamble and bill of rights, in reference to land taken for railroad tracks, 3549. Resolution of instruction to committee on revision to amend article on Secretary of State, Comptroller, etc., in reference to court of claims, 3648. Resolution of instruction to committee on revision to amend article on Secretary of State, Comptroller, etc., in reference to statute of limitations, 3645. Resolution of instruction to committee on revision to amend article on Secretary of State, Comptroller, etc., in reference to superintendent of public works, 3634, 3635. Resolution of instruction to committee on revision to amend article on suffrage, in reference to gain or loss of residence in time of war, 622. Resolution of instruction to committee on revision to amend article on town and county officers in reference to super. visors, 3661. RUSSELL, ABRAHAM D., A delegate from the sixth senatorial dis. district. Appointed member of committee on State prisons, etc., 96. Oath of office taken by, 25. Petition in favor of abolishing office of regents of university, presented by, 1416. Resolution in reference to regulation of sale of intoxicating liquors, 306. RUSSELL, LESLIE W., A delegate from the seventeenth senatorial district. Appointed member of committee on corporations, other than municipal, etc., 96. Appointed member of committee on right of suffrage, etc., 95. Minority report from joint committee on corporations, submitted by, 670 Oath of office taken by, 18. Petition in favor of abolishing office of regents of university, presented by, 2392. Petition in reference to prohibiting donations to sectarian institutions, presented by, 625, 665. Resolution in reference to organization of the Legislature, 173. Resolution in reference to prohibition of extra compensation, 99. Resolution in reference to town-meetings, 143. SABBATH, I Petition in reference to observance of, 1229. INDEX. ccvii SALARIES OF JUDGES, Remarks of Mr. Andrews on, 244 7. " Comstock on, 2438, 2440, 2447. Remarks of Mr. Ferry on 2440. It Folger on, 2446. It Graves on, 2439, 2142, 2449. Remarks of Mr. Hale on, 2441. " Hand on, 2440, 2441. " A. J. Parker on, 2448. t" Spencer on, 2449. " M. I. Townsend on, 2448. Resolution of inquiry to comptroller of city of New York, in reference to, 198, 218. SALARIES OF MEMBERS OF LEGISLATURE, Resolution in reference to, 416. SALARY OF COUNTY JUDGE, Resolution of instruction to committee on revision to amend article on judiciary, in reference to, 3734, 3736. SALARY OF GOVERNOR, Resolution of instruction to committee on revision to amend article on Governor, Lt.-Governor, etc., in reference to, 3612. SALARY OF LIEUT.-GOVERNOR, Resolution of instruction to committee on revision to amend article on Governor, Lieut.-Governor, etc., in reference to, 3619. SALARY OF MEMBERS OF LEGISLATURE, Resolution of instruction to committee on revision to amend article on organization of Legislature, in reference to, 1134, 1181, 1362, 2424, 3591, 3592, 3605. SALARY OF SURROGATE, Resolution of instruction to committee on revision to amend article on judiciary, in reference to, 3734. Amendment of Mr. Hale in reference to 2792. Amendment of Mr. Spencer in reference to, 2795. Amendment of Mr. Stratton in reference to, 3289, 3292. Amendment of Mr. Veeder in reference to, 2129, 2791, 3602. Amendment of Mr. Verplanck in reference to 2161. Debate on report of committee on, 3265 to 3297. OF SALT SPRINGS OF STATE, Amendment of Mr. Alvord in reference to, 3377. Amendment of Mr. E. Brooks in reference to, 3770. Amendment of Mr. McDonald in reference to, 3770. Amendment of Mr. M. I. Townsend in reference to, 3418. Amendment of Mr. Young in reference to, 3410. SALE SALE OR LEASE OF SALT SPRINGS, Remarks of Mr. Alvord on, 3380, 3381, 3383, 3385, 3388, 3389, 3390, 3394, 3769, 3779, 3782, 3786. Remarks of Mr. Andrews on, 3418, 3420, 3421, 3422, 3423, 3784. Remarks of Mr. Bell on, 3371, 3372, 3432, 3434, 3769, 3780, 3782. Remarks of Mr. Bergen on, 3784. " E. A. Brown on, 3785. " Comstock on, 3418, 3428, 3429, 3430, 3780, 3783, 3787. Remarks of Mr. Conger on, 3431, 3432. McDonald on, 3395, 3396, 3398, 3399, 3400, 3770, 3777, 3784. Remarks of Mr. Merritt on, 3434. Opdyke on, 3426, 3427. " C. E. Parker, 3402, 3404, 3406, 3407, 3408, 3409. Remarks of Mr. M. I. Townsend on, 3425, 3426. Remarks of Mr. S. Townsend, 3424, 3787. t" Young on, 3416. Resolution of instruction to committee on revision to amend article on salt springs of State, in reference to, 3770. SALE AND ADULTERATION OF INTOXICATING LIQUORS, Amendment of Mr. Alvord in reference to, 2150. Amendment of Mr. Colahan in reference to, 3265. Amendment of Mr. Duganne in reference to, 2129, 3296. Amendment of Mr. E. Brooks in reference to, 3292. Amendment of Mr. Fowler in reference to, 3271. SALT RESERVATIONS, Resolution in reference to, 125, 144, 173. ccviii INDEX. SALT SPRINGS OF STATE, Amendment of Mr. Comstock in reference to appropriation of money for development and management of, 3428. Amendment of Mr. McDonald in reference to, 3777. Amendment of Mr. Opdyke in reference to revision of laws relating to, 3426. Debate on report of committee on, 3371 to 3412, 3416 to 3435. Debate on report of committee on revision, on article on, 3777 to 3788. Minority report from committee on, 2612. Report from committee on, 2560. Report of committee on revision, on article on, 3769. Resolution authorizing committee on, to hold sitting at salt reservation, 817. Resolution of instruction to committee on revision to amend article on, in reference to sale of, 3770. Resolution to amend article on, 3770. SALT SPRINGS, SALE OR LEASE OF, Remarks of Mr. Alvord on, 3380, 3381, 3383, 3385, 3388, 3389, 3390, 3394, 3769, 3779, 3782, 3786. Remarks of Mr. Andrews on, 3418, 3420, 3421, 3422, 3423, 3784. Remarks of Mr. Bell on, 3371, 3372, 3432, 3434, 3769, 3780, 3782, 3786. Remarks of Mr. Bergen on, 3784. E. A. Brown on, 3785. " Comstock on, 3418, 3428, 3429, 3430, 3780, 3783, 3787. Remarks of Mr. Conger on, 3431, 3432. (" McDonald on, 3395, 3396, 3398, 3399, 3400, 3770, 3777, 3784. Remarks of Mr. Merritt on, 3434. 1" Opdyke on, 3426, 3427. " C. E. Parker on, 3402, * 3404, 3406, 3407, 3408, 3409. Remarks of Mr. M. I. Townsend on, 3425, 3426. Remarks of Mr. S. Townsend on, 3424, 3787. Remarks of Mr. Young on, 3416. SARATOGA, Resolution in reference to adjourning Convention to, 25, 161, 358. SCHELL, AUGUSTUS, A delegate at large, 750, 1053, 1936, 3875. Appointed member of committee on finances of State, etc., 95. Oath of office taken by, 18. Petition against abolishment of office of regents of university, presented by, 179. Petition in reference to code of laws, 192. Remarks of, on joint report of committee on currency, banking, etc., and corpora. tions other than municipal, 1027. Remarks of, on report of committee on organization of Legislature, etc., 831, 832, 833, 839. Remarks of, on report of committee on powers and duties of Legislature, 1319, 2158. Resolution in reference to mode of payment of debts contracted by the State, 850. SCHOOL COMMISSIONER, Petition in reference to abolishment of, 895. Resolution in reference to abolishing office of, 640. SCHOOL-DISTRICTS TO BE FURNISHED WITH STATE PAPER CONTAINING LAWSi Remarks of Mr. E. Brooks on, 2100. " S. Townsend on, 2101. " Verplanck on, 2101. SCHOOLS, FREE, Petition in reference to, 626. SCHOOL FUND, Communication from Comptroller in reference to, 252. Report of committee on education in reference to, 1563. Resolution of inquiry to commissioners of land-office jn reference to land belonging to, 486, 646. SCHOOL LIBRARIES WITH LAWS OF STATE, ETC., Resolution in reference to furnishing, 1417. SCHOOL TAX, Resolution in reference to, 1778. SCHOOLS, COMMON, Petition in reference to support of, 2356. Remarks of superintendent of public instruction in reference to, 284 to 288. Resolution of inquiry to superintendent of public instruction in reference to, 217, 234, 284. SCHOONMAKER, MARIUS, A delegate from the fourteenth senatorial district, 134, 748, 831, 1297, 1365, 1492, 3642, 3651, 3874. INDEX. ccix Appointed member of committee on canals, 95. Minority report from committee on canals, submitted by, 814. Oath of office taken by, 18. Petition in reference to drainage, presented by, 1679. Petition in reference to prohibiting donations to sectarian institutions, presented by, 665. Remarks of, in reference to communication from commissioners of canal fund, 133. Remarks of, on care and management of canals, 3951 to 3957. Remarks of, on finances of State and canals, 2259, 2260. Remarks of, on joint report of committee on currency, banking, etc., and corporations other than municipal, 1057. Remarks of, on report of committee on canals, 2059. Remarks of, on report of committee on finances and on canals, 1467, 1486, 1492. Remarks of, on report of committee on organization of Legislature, 661, 839. Remarks of, on report of committee on powers and duties of Legislature, 1300, 1324, 1343. Remarks of, on report of committee on revision, on article on Secretary of State, Comptroller, etc.. 3636. Remarks of, on report of committee on town and county officers, etc., 971. Resolution in reference to claims against State, 264. Resolution in reference to extra compensation, 185. Resolution of inquiry to Secretary of State, in reference to leases given by the State, 307, 364. Resolution of instruction to committee on revision to amend article on judiciary in reference to tenure of office of judges, 3732. Resolution of instruction to committee on revision to amend article on Secretary 'of State, Comptroller, etc., in reference to construction of canal bridges by State, 3643. Resolution of instruction to committee on revision to amend article on Secretary of State, Comptroller, etc., in reference to statute of limitations, 3648. 27 I I I I Resolution of instruction to committee on revision to amend article on Secretary of State, Comptroller, etc., in reference to superintendent of public works, 3635, 3651. Resolution to discharge committee of the whole from consideration of report of committee on Legislature, its organization, etc., 640. SCHRAM, C. V., Appointed doorkeeper, 29. Oath of office taken by, 33. SCHUMAKER, JOHN G., A delegate from the third senatorial district, 584, 725. Appointed member of committee on the right of suffrage, etc., 95. Oath of office taken by,-18. Remarks of, on amendments to report of committee on suffrage, 488, 489. Remarks of, on motion for call of Convention, 721. Remarks of, on report of committee on cities, 3096, 3103, 3104, 3105. Remarks of, oil report of committee on judiciary, 2371. Remarks of, on report of committee on suffrage, 532, 584, 593, 596. Remarks. of, on report of committee on town and county officers, etc., 907, 908, 926. SEATS, Debate on resolution in reference to drawing, 24. 25. Resolution in reference to drawing, and amendment thereto, 23, 24. Resolution in reference to mode of drawing for, 2690, 2691. 3EAVER, JOEL J., A delegate 'from the seventeenth seilato. rial district 745 870, 1385, 2670, 3339p 36897 3717. AppointM ",pluber of committee on en. arossment and enrollment, 3665. Appointed member of committee on milietc., 96. Appointed member of committee on print. in 96 9t Oathof officetaken by, 18. Remarks of, in reference to compensation of steno ttipher 182'. Remarks of, on report of comm ittees on finances and on canalsi 1895. A delegate from the seventeenth senatorial district, 745, 870, 1385, 2670, 3339, 3689, 3717. Appointic,fnplber of committee on engrossment and enrollment, 3665. Appointed member of committee on militia, etc., 96. Appointed member of committee on printing, 96. Oath of office taken by, 18. Remarks of, in reference to compensation of stenographer, 182. Remarks of, on report of committees on finances and on canals, 1895. INDEX., SEAVER, JOEL J.- Continued. Remarks of, on report of committee on town and county officers, etc., 976,.977, 995. Remarks of, on report of committee on militia and military officers, 1218, 1222. Remarks of, on report of committee on revision on article on militia of State, 3694. Report from committee on printing in reference to binding Constitution, presented by, 1417. Report from committee on printing in reference to communication from Dr. Lieber, submitted by, 233. Report from committee on printing in reference to compensation of stenographer, submitted by, 182. Report from committee on printing, submitted by, 122, 137, 156, 182, 264, 2625, 2670, 2671. Report from committee on printing in reference to printing extra copies of documents, presented by, 1033. Report from committee on printing in reference to printing extra copies of report of committee on.town and county officers, etc., presented by, 816. Report from committee on printing in reference to printing extra copies of reports, submitted by, 1349. Resolution in reference to compensation of members of Legislature, 144. Resolution in reference to printing report of committee on powers and duties of Legislature, 1271. Resolution of inquiry to commissioners of land office in reference to lands donated by State, 851. Reuolution of inquiry to Comptroller in reference to stock deposited with him, 852. Resolution of inquiry to State Engineer and Surveyor in refehtmce to construction, etc., of railroad along the upper Hudson, 852. Resolution of inquiry to State Engineer and Surveyor in reference to lands sold by certain railroad companies, 852. Resolution of instruction to committee on revision to amend article on militia of State in reference to exemptions from milita, 3686. Resolution to refer propositions for alterations of rules, etc., to committee on rules, 883. SECRETARY OF CONVENTION,.Appointed, 20. Appointed member of committee in reference to meeting of Convention in Troy, 2660. Oath of office taken by, 33. Resolution authorizing, to take charge of documents during recess, 2689. Resolution instructing, to forward docu. ments, etc., to delegates during recess, 1969. Resolution instructing, to furnish copy of debates to Secretary of Georgia Convention, 2815. Resolution instructing, to furnish members with list of debates, etc., 3907. Resolution instructing, to furnish reporters with copy of debates, 3922. Resolution requesting, to notify absentees to attend, 3415, 3416, 3456. Resolution of thanks to, 3912. SECRETARY'S ASSISTANTS, Appointed, 29. Oath of office taken by, 33. SECRETARY OF BOARD OF REGENTS OF UNIVERSITY, Communication from, 2478. SECRETARY OF GEORGIA CONSTITUTIONAL CONVENTION, Resolution instructing Secretary of Convention to furnish copy of debates to, 2815. SECRETARY OF METROPOLITAN BOARD OF EXCISE, Communication from, 2058. SECRETARY OF STATE, Remarks of Mr. E. Brooks on, 1267, 1268. I" Conger on, 1267, 3631. Resolution of inquiry to, in reference to Indian tribes, 120, 138. Resolution of inquiry to, in reference to leases given by the State, 307, 364. Resolution of inquiry to, in reference to population, etc., 94. Resolution requesting to attend Convention at signing of Constitution, 3929. SECRETARY OF STATE AND ATTORNEY-GENERAL, Resolution of instruction to committee on revision to amend article on Secretary of State, Comptroller, etc., in reference to election of, 3631. INDEX. Cexi SECRETARY OF STATE, COMPTROLLER, ETC., Debate on report of committee on, 1235 to 1254, 1254 to 1270. Debate on report of committee on revision, on article on, 3631 to 3653. Final report of committee on revision on article on, 3672. ~ Report of committee on. 1009. Report of committee on revision, on article on, 3622. Resolution to amend article on, 3631, 3632, 3633, 3634, 3635, 3636, 3637, 3638, 3639, 3640, 3641, 3642, 3643, 3644, 3645, 3646, 3647, 3648, 3649, 3651, 3652. Resolution of instruction to committee on revision to amend article on, in reference to assistant superintendent of public works, 3638. Resolution of instruction to committee on revision to amend article on, in reference to canal commissioners, 3652. Resolution of instruction to committee on revision to amend article on, in reference to canal tolls, 3652. Resolution of instruction to committee on revision to amend article on, in reference to construction of canal bridges by State, 3639, 3640, 3643. Resolution of instruction to committee on revision to amend article on in reference to contracts, 3651. Resolution of instruction to committee on revision to amend article on. in reference to court of claims, 3646, 3647, 3648. Resolution of instruction to committee on revision to amend article on, in reference to election of Secretary of State and Attorney-General, 3631. Resolution of instruction to committee on revision to amend article on, in reference to railroad commissioners, 3649. Resolution of instruction to committee on revision to amend article on, in reference to State Engineer, 3632. Resolution of instruction to committee on revision to amend article on, in reference to statute of limitations, 3639, 3641, 3642, 3643, 3644, 3645, 3647, 3648. Resolution of instruction to committee on revision to amend article on, in reference to superintendent of public works, 3633, 3634, 3635, 3637, 3641, 3652. Resolution of instruction to committee on revision to anend article on, in reference to term of office of judges of court of claims, 3652. Resolution of instruction to committee on revision to amend article on, in reference to term of office of superintendent of public works, 3652. Resolution of instruction to committee on revision to amend article on, in reference to Treasurer, 3652. SECTARIAN INSTITUTIONS, Petition in reference to prohibiting donations to, 119, 157, 192, 196, 214, 233, 249, 250, 282, 322, 349, 350, 39k, 411, 445, 446, 486, 624 to 626, 699, 710, 701, 716, 754, 896, 897, 1098, 1171, 1193, 1194, 1348, 1375, 1416, 1563, 1955, 2216, 2228. Resolution in reference to prohibiting donations to, 94, 101, 302, 303. SENATE, Communication from clerk of, 2689. SENATE AND ASSEMBLY, Resolution in reference to election of members of, 100, 102. SENATORS AND ASSEMBLYMEN, Resolution in reference to term of office, etc., 126. SENATE COMMITTEE TO INVESTIGATE ALLEGED FRAUDS IN MANAGEMENT OF CANALS, Communication from, 1416. Resolution advising continuation of investigation by, 2073. Resolution requesting the furnishing of evidence by, 935, 1011. SENATORS, Resolution of instruction to committee on revision to amend article on organization of Legislature in reference to term of office of, 936, 3587, 3588. Resolution of instruction to committee on revision to. amend article on organization of Legislature in reference to compensation of, while sitting in court of impeachment, 935, 1013. SENATORIAL DISTRICTS, Amendment of Mr. Ballard in reference to, 664. Amendment of Mr. Bickford in reference to, 843. Amendment of Mr.. Bowen in reference to, 840. i Ii I i i i I I I INDEX. dENATORIAL DISTRICTS- Continued. Amendment of Mr. E. Brooks in reference to, 651. Amendment of Mr. E. A. Brown in reference to, 841. Amendment of Mr. W. C. Brown in reference to, 872. Amendment of Mr. Conger in reference to, 842, 3866. Amendment of Mr. Field in reference to, 871. Amendment of Mr. Flagler in reference to, 828. Amendment of Mr. Garvin in reference to, 714. Amendment of Mr. Gould in reference to, 844. Amendment of Mr. Greeley in reference to, 652, 871. Amendment of Mr. Merritt in reference to, 844, 845, 3587 Amendment of Mr. A. J. Parker in reference to, 786, 873. Amendment of Mr. Schell in reference to, 831, 839. Amendment of Mr. Schoonmaker in reference to, 831, 839, 870. Amendment of Mr. Sherman in reference to, 869. Amendment of Mr. S. Townsend in reference to, 840. Remarks of Mr. Alvord on, 664, 3866. " Andrews on, 768. s" Axtell on, 780. c" Baker on, 782. Ballard on, 655, 748, 829. " Barker on, 659, 831. Bell on, 705, 707, 821. A" Bergen on, 680. *" Bickford on, 711, 843. *" Bowen on, 679. 'l E. Brooks on, 651, 652, 784, 835. Remarks of Mr. E. A. Brown on, 677, 841, 3588, 3679. Remarks of Mr. W. C. Brown on, 707. " Carpenter on. 697. t" Conger on, 655, 656, 836, 637, 838, 842, 3866. Remarks of Mr. Cooke on, 695. Daly on, 663, 836. U DDuganno on, 687, 788. T. W. Dwight on,.777. Eddy on, 772. Remarks of Mr. Evarts on, 759, 786. "I Flagler on, 692, 828. " Folger on, 770,772, 3680. t" Frank on, 838. "6 Fuller on, 702. " Fullerton on, 664. Gould on, 822, 823, 874. Graves on, 767. Greeley on, 652, 787, 836, 871. Remarks of Mr. Hale on, 683. " Hand on, 3681. " Hardenburgh on, 778. Harris on, 770. " Hatch on, 677. " Hutchins on, 834. *" Kernan on, 693. Ketcham on, 781. Krum on, 765. l" Landon on, 775. " Lapham on, 834. '" M. H. Lawrence on, 708. Lee on, 704. " Ludington on, 763. 1" McDonald on, 713, 875. " Merritt on, 685, 3587. *" Merwin on, 691. Monell on, 824. " Murphy on, 3680. <" Opdyke on, 827. " A. J. Parker on, 663, 786, 871, 872, 873, 3679. Remarks of Mr. Pond on, 761. " Prindle on, 689, 828. Rumsey on, 712, 713. " Schell on, 832, 833. "' Schoonmaker on, 660, 661. " Seymour on, 681. " Sherman on, 658. M. I. Townsend on, 661, 826. Remarks of Mr. S. Townsend on, 709, 840. Remarks of Mr. Van Campen on, 820, 821. Remarks of Mr. Van Cott on, 773, 3681. Wakeman on, 710. " Weed on, 811. Young on, 688. Resolution of instruction to committee on revision to amend article on organization of Legislature, in reference to, 3587, 3866. INDEX ccxiii SENECA INDIANS, Petition from, 3181. SEPARATE SUBMISSION OF CONSTITUTION, Remarks of Mr. Alvord on, 3885. " Beckwith on, 3885. Comstock on, 3887. Duganne on, 3889. " Folger on, 3888. " Francis on, 3887. " Merritt on, 3890. " Wakeman on, 3886. SERGEANT-AT-ARMS, Appointed, 20. Instructed to detail assistance to post. master, 21. Oath of office administered to, 22. Resolution to appoint Frank M. Jones assistant, 2693, 2736. Resolution to appoint Hiram T. Frencl assistant, 2803. SERGEANT-AT-ARMS, ASSISTANT, Appointed, 20. Oath of office administered to, 22. SESSIONS OF CONVENTION, Resolution in reference to, 217, 233, 266, 644, 852, 1134, 1315, 1778, 1779, 1781. 2393. SEVENTH REGIMENT OF CITY OF NEW YORK, Communication from, 2478. SEYMOUR, DAVID L., A delegate at large, 188, 308, 452, 551, 567, 731, 744, 745, 982, 996, 1514. Oath of office taken by, 18. Appointed member of committee on canals, 95. Remarks of, on amendments to report of committee on suffrage, 476. Remarks of, on consideration of report of committee on rules, 74. Remarks of, on employment of clerks to committees, 149. Remarks of, on joint report of committee on currency, banking, etc., and corporations other than municipal, 1017, 1019, 1025, 1090. Remarks of, on motion for call of Convention, 717, 733. Remarks of, on motion to refer reports of committees on finances and canals to same committee of the whole, 1213. Remarks of, on report of committee on counties. towns etc 1138. Remarks of, ox report of committee on finances and canals, COO. Remarks of, on report of committee on organization of Legislature, etc., 681, 856. Remarks of, on report of committee on powers and duties of Legislature, 1358. Remarks of, on report of committee on suffrage, 275, 277, 561, 592. Remarks of, on report of committee on town and county officers, etc., 982, 995. Remarks of, on resolution to appoint committee to report mode of submission of amendments to Constitution, 400. Resolution in reference to death of, 1792. Resolution in reference to organization of Legislature, 160. SHELDON, GEORGE B., Appointed messenger, 29. SHELDON, WILSON D., A delegate from the eleventh senatorial district. Appointed member of committee on town and county officers, etc., 95. Oath of office taken by, 18. SHERIFFS, Resolution of instruction to committee on revision to amend article on town and county officers in reference to, 3653. SHERMAN, RICHARD U., A delegate from the nineteenth senatorial district, 24, 33, 44, 45, 48, 57, 351, 639, 740, 816, 1133, 1386. Appointed member of committee on engrossment and enrollment, 96. Appointed member of committee on organization of Legislature, etc., 95. Appointed member of committee on rules, 29. Communication in reference to assessment laws, presented by, 264. Oath of office taken by, 18. Petition in reference to prohibiting donations to sectarian institutions, presented by, 486. Remarks of, on motion to amend rule in reference to order of business, 849. Remarks of, on report of committee on organization of Legislature, etc., 658, 869. Remarks of, on report of committee on powers and dutiea of Legislature 1319. INDEX. SHERMAN, RICHARD U.-Continued. Remarks of,, on report of committee on printing in reference to printing extra copies of report of committee on town and county officers, etc., 816. Remarks of, on report of committee on rules, 33. Remarks of, on report of committee on suffrage, 613. Remarks of, on report of committee on town and county officers, etc., 1008. Report of committee on rules, submitted by, 33. Resolution authorizing committee on rules to print their report, 30. Resolution in reference to adjournment, 264. Resolution in reference to drawing seats, 23. Resolution in reference to jurisdiction of board of supervisors, 446, 918. Resolution in reference to order of debate on report of committee on organization of Legislature, etc., 647. Resolution in reference to members absent without leave, 741, 745. Resolution in reference to printing extra copies of report of committee on town and county officers, etc., 158. Resolution in reference to prohibition of special legislation for certain objects, 447. Resolution in reference to revision of article on right of suffrage, 622. Resolution in reference to sessions of Convention, 644. Resolution of inquiry in reference to nonreception of printed documents, 251. Resolution to adopt, temporarily, rules of Assembly, and to appoint committee on rules, 20. Resolution to limit debate on report of committee on finances and canals, 1629. Resolution to print rules reported by committee on rules, 42. Resolution to refer to select committee subject of revision of Constitution, 30. Resolution to reprint document No. 30, 487. Resolution to restore partition in Chamber, 1704. SHIELDS, DAVID L., Appointed doorkeeper, 29. Oath of office taken by, 33. SIGNING BILLS BY GOVERNOR, Resolution of instruction to committee on revision to amend article on Governor, Lieutenanc-.Governor, etc., in reference to, 1194, 3619. SILVESTER, FRANCIS, A delegate from the eleventh senatorial district, 21, 48, 725, 734, 2488, 3065, 3145. Appointed member of committee on charities, etc., 96. Appointed member of committee on relations of State to Indians, 96. Qath of office taken by, 18. Petition in favor of abolishing office of regents of university, presented by, 1827. Petition in reference to prohibition of sectarian institutions, presented by, 754. Remarks of, in reference to appointing P. J. Hotailing postmaster, 20, 21. Remarks of, on amendment to report of committee on right of suffrage, 440. Remarks of, on consideration of report of committee on rules, 75. Remarks of, on finances of State, 3524. Remarks of, on motion for call of Convention, 734. Remarks of, on report of committee on charities, etc, 2744, 2748. Remarks of, on report of committee on judiciary, 2210, 2213. Remarks of, on report of committee on suffrage, 342. Remarks of, on report of committee on town and county officers, etc., 909. Remarks of, on report of joint committee on currency, banking, etc., and corporations other than municipal, 1046. Remarks of, on resolution calling for information in reference to canals, 40. Remarks of, on resolution in reference to session of Convention, 290. Remarks of, on resolution to adjourn to Saratoga, 360. Remarks of, on resolution to instruct committee on revision to amend article on judiciary, 3005. Resolution in reference to sending of bills, 175. Resolution in reference to bribery in Legislature, 184, 195. Resolution in reference to obtaining hall for Convention, 2495. INDEX. CCxv Resolution of instruction to committee on: revision to amend article on preamble and bill of rights in reference to compensation for land overflowed for manufacturing purposes, 3549. Resolution of instruction to committee on revision to amend article on town and county officers in reference to supervisors, 3659. Resolution to appoint P. J. Hotaling postmaster, 21. SIMMONS, EDWARD W., Appointed Financial Secretary, 29. Oath of office taken by, 33. SING SING STATE PRISON, SALE OF, Remarks of Mr. Alvord on, 3233. "( S. Townsend on, 3232. SMITH, HORACE E., A delegate from the fifteenth senatorial district, 136, 356, 549, 564, 612, 931, 976, 982, 1372, 1780, 2079, 2090, 2149, 2161, 2199, 2372, 2771. Appointed member of committee on town and county officers, etc., 95. Oath of office taken by, 18 Petition against abolishing office of regents of university, presented by, 1778. Petition in favor of abolishing office of regents of university, presented by, 1362, 1977, 2058. Petition in reference to prohibiting donations to sectarian institutions, presented by, 625, 1193. Petition in reference to temperance system of medicine, presented by, 2281. Remarks of, in reference to close of Convention, 3412. Remarks of, on amendments to report of committee on suffrage, 470, 472. Remarks of, on consideration of report of committee on rules, 48, 49. Remarks of, on employment of clerks to committees, 151. Remarks of, on finances of State, 3512, 3519, 3522. Remarks of, on motion for call of Convention, 729. Remarks of, on petition of veterans of 1812, 171. Remarks of, on report of committee ap. pointed to report manner of revision of Constitution, 84. Remarks of, on report of committee on amendments to, and submission of, Constitution, 3898, 3900. Remarks of, on report of committee on canals, 2094. Remarks of, on report of committee on charities, etc., 2740. Remarks of, on report of committee on cities, 2990, 3179. Remarks of, on report of committee on counties, towns. etc., 1146, 1147. Remarks of, on report of committee on eduteat,-kn, 2862, 2877, 2886. Remarks of, on report of committee on Governor, Lieut.-Governor, etc. 1126. Remarks of, on report of committee on judiciary, 2184, 2213, 2214, 2215, 2219, 2298, 2375, 2376, 2434, 2464, 2467, 2468, 2472, 2542, 2550, 2560, 2584, 2589, 26J9. Remarks of, on report of- committee on official corruption. 3314, 3342. Remarks of, on report of committee on powers and duties of Legislature, 1298, 1381, 2113, 2130, 2137, 2138, 2139, 2165, 2769, 2792. Remarks of, on report of committee on preamble and bill of rights, 3253. Remarks of, on report of committee on revision on article on town and county officers, 3656. Remarks of, on report of committee on sale of intoxicating liquors, 3293. Remarks of, on report of committee on suffrage, 243, 428. Remarks of, on report of committee on town and county officers, etc., 898, 902, 923, 931, 967, 968, 984, 994. Remarks of, on taxation, 3495. Report from committee on town and county officers, etc., submitted by, 755. Resolution in reference to appropriation of lands, etc., for manufacturing purposes, etc., 124. Resolution in reference to disfranchisement, 99, 135. Resolution instructing committees to report, 2098, 2136. Resolution of instruction to committee on revision to amend article on preamble and bill of rights, in reference to right to catch fish in international waters, 3554. ccxvi INDEX. SMITH, HORACE E. —Continued. Resolution to appoint committee to prepare document showing changes in Constitution, 2283, 3412. SOLDIERS, Appointment of committee to provide for, care of disabled, 1531. Report from committee in relation to providing for disabled, 3064. Resolution in reference to care of disabled, 1375, 1514, 2660. SOLICITOR OF CLAIMS, Amendment of Mr. Alvord in reference to, 2774. Amendment of Mr. E. P. Brooks in reference to, 1360. Amendment of Mr. Chesebro in reference to, 1347 Amendment of Mr. Develin in reference to, 2774. Amendment of Mr. Greeley in reference to, 1355. Amendment of Mr. Hale in reference to, 2775. Amendment of Mr. Van Campen in reference to, 2774. Amendment of Mr. Veeder in reference to, 2774 Amendment of Mr. Verplanck in reference to, 1360. SPECIAL LAWS, Resolution in reference to prohibiting Legislature from passing, 120. Resolution of instruction to committee on revision to amend article on Dreamble and bill of rights, in reference to, 3548. SPECIAL SESSIONS OF LEGISLATURE, Resolution of instruction to committee or revision to amend article on Governor, Lieut.-Governor, etc., in reference to, 3613, 3615, 3617. SPECIE, Resolution in reference to making tolls and taxes due State, payable in, 38. SPECIE PAYMENT, PROHIBITION OF SUSPENSION OF, Amendment of Mr. Gerry in reference to, 1081, 1083. Amendment of Mr. Greeley in reference to, 1082. Amendment of Mr. Opdyke in reference to, 1080. Remarks of Mr. Gould on, 1082. Remarks of Mr. Kernan on, 1082. " Opdyke on, 1080. " S. Townsend on, 1083, 3844. SPENCER, GEORGE T., A delegate from the twenty-seventh senatorial district, 470, 1284, 1294, 1346, 1374, 1385, 1598, 1737, 1770, 1991, 2282, 2554, 2555, 2721, 2769, 2795, 2810, 3519. Appointed member of committee on charities, etc., 96. Appointed member of committee on preamble and bill of rights, 95. Oath of office taken by, 18. Petition in favor of abolishing office of regents of university, presented by, 2273. Petition in reference to prohibiting donations to sectarian institutions, presented by, 625. Remarks of, in reference to bill of rights, 172. Remarks of, in reference to publication of debates, 111. Remarks of, on amendment to report of committee on right of suffrage, 438. Remarks of, on minority report from committee on charities, etc. Remarks of, on report of committee on Attorney-General, etc., 1284. Remarks of, on report of committee on canals, 2049, 2051. Remarks of, on report of committee on charities, etc.. 2720, 2745. Remarks of, on report of committee on cities, 2980, 3007. Remarks of, on report of committee on education, 2916. Remarks of, on report of committees on finance and canals, 1621, 1813, 1946, 1952, 2008, 2308, 2309, 2335. Remarks of, on report of committee on judiciary, 2207, 2221, 2407, 2420, 2449, 2455, 2522, 2523, 2597, 2629, 2665. Remarks of, on report of committee on organization of Legislature, etc., 859. Remarks of, on report of committee on powers and duties of Legislature, 1335, 2787. Remarks of, on report of committee on revision on article on preamble and bill of rights, 3546, 3548. INDEX. ccxvii CeXV11 Remarks of, on report of committee on Secretary of State, Comptroller, etc., 1259. Remarks of, on report of committee on suffrage, 556. Remarks of, on report of committee on town and county officers, etc., 971. Remarks on resolution to appoint committee to report mode of submission of amendments to Constitution, 397. Report from committee on preamble and bill of rights, presented by, 2273. Resolution in reference to manner and revision of Constitution, 30. Resolution in reference to organization of courts, etc., 140. Resolution of inquiry to Secretary of State, in reference to Indian tribes, 120,,138. Resolution of instruction to committee on revision to amend article on finance, in reference to taxation, 3760. Resolution of instruction to committee on revision to amend article on preamble and bill of rights, in reference to drains, 3545. Resolution of instruction to committee on revision to amend article on preamble and bill of rights, in reference to private roads, 3548. Resolution of instruction to committee on revision to amend article on town and county officers, in reference to register of wills, 3653. Resolution to appoint committee to inquire as to power of Convention to impose penalties, 883. Resolution to discharge committee of the whole from consideration of report of committee on organization of Legislature, etc., with instructions, 675. SPRAGUE, REV. D., Prayer by, 176. Resolution in reference to claims against, 126, 141, 173. Resolution in reference to lands within jurisdiction of, 1033. Resolution in reference to loaning credit cf, 145. Resolution in reference to mode of payment of debts contracted by, 850. Resolution of inquiry to commissioners of land-office, in reference to lands donated by, 851. STATE AID TO CORPORATIONS, Amendment of Mr. Alvord in reference to 2017, 2251, 3480. Amendment of Mr. Axtell in reference to, 2253. Amendment of Mr. Beckwith in reference to, 3476. Amendment of Mr, Bickford in reference to, 1990, 1992. Amendment of Mr. E. Brooks in reference to, 1841, 2012. Amendment of Mr. Church m reference to, 1997, 2246. Amendment of Mr. Comstock in reference to, 3482. Amendment of Mr. Hale in reference to, 1990. Amendment of Mr. Miller in reference to, 3327, 3369. Amendment of Mr. Opdyke in reference to, 3462 Amendment of Mr. Prosser in reference to, 2259. Amendment of Mr. Rathbun in reference to, 2251. Amendment of Mr. Rumsey in reference to, 2257. Amendment of Mr. Spencer in reference to, 1991. Remarks of Mr. Alvord on, 1843, 1991, 1992, 1999, 2017, 2254, 2341, 3465, 3480. Remarks of Mr. Andrews on, 3366. t" Axtell on, 2254. " Barker on, 2253. " Bickford on. 1992, 2001, 2003, 2018, 2341, 3461. Remarks of Mr. E. Brooks on, 1840, 1841, 1843, 1845, 2252, 2256, 2257. Remarks of Mr. E. A. Brown on, 1993. "m W. C. Brown on, 2000. Cassidy on, 3764. " Church on, 1841, 1996, 2012, 2013. STATE, Debate on finances of, 3501 to 3526. Minority report from committee on relations of, to Indians, 2925. Report from committee on relations of, to Indians, 2881. Resolution for the division of, into districts, 1234. Resolution in reference to advertising for bids for work done for, 2019. 28 Ccxviii INDEX. SEATE AID TO CORPORATIONS- Continued. Remarks of Mr. Comstock on, 3764. "i Conger on, 1993, 1994, 1995, 1999. Remarks of Mr. Daly on, 2001. Evarts on, 1848. " Ferry on, 2015. " Grant on, 2016. Hale on, 2008, 3475. " Hand on, 3467, 3469. " Hardenburgh on, 3477, 3478, 3479, 3768. Remarks of Mr. Kernan on, 1845. " McDonald on, 2010, 2011, 3470, 3471, 3473, 3474. Remarks of Mr. Miller on, 2009, 3327, 3328, 3366, 3476. Remarks of Mr. Murphy on, 1844, 1845, 1991, 1994, 1997. Remarks of Mr. Opdyke on, 2003, 2004, 2007, 3462, 3479, 3482. Remarks of Mr. Prindle on, 3366, 3368. " Rathbun on, 2251, 2252, 2255 2342. Remarks of Mr. Rumsey on, 2258, 3366. Remarks of Mr. M. I. Townsend on, 1997, 2006, 2007. Remarks of Mr. Spencer on, 2008. " Van Campen on, 2253. " Weed on, 2005, 2010, 2014. 'Resolution of instruction to committee on revision to amend article on finance, in reference to, 3764, 3768. STATE AID TO RAILROADS, Debate on, 3461 to 3483. STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION, Amendment of Mr. Alvord in reference to, 2903. Amendment of Mr. Alvord in reference to term of office and compensation of members of, 2865, 2870. Amendment of Mr. Comstock in reference to duties of, 2903. Amendment of Mr. Curtis in reference to duties of, 2906. Amendment of Mr. Verplanck in reference to, 2860. Remarks of Mr. C. L. Allen on, 2884. Alvord on, 2865, 2871, 2875, 2876, 2890. I Remarks of Mr. E. A. Brown on, 2870. " Comstock on, 2903, 2904, 2906, 2907. Remarks of Mr. Curtis on, 2873, 2874, 2883, 2887, 2905, 2906, 2908. Remarks of Mr. Ferry on, 2907. " Gould on, 2866, 2868, 2869, 2878, 2903, 2905. Remarks of Mr. Hadlev on, 2902. " Hale on, 2872. Larremore on, 2882, 2883. " McDonald on, 2882. Merritt on, 2876. A. J. Parker on, 2878, 2879, 2880, 2896. Remarks of Mr. Smith on, 2862, 2877, 2886. Remarks of Mr. M. I. Townsend on, 2894. Remarks of Mr. Van Campen on, 2885. " Verplanck on, 2862, 2886. STATE CANALS, Resolution in reference to sale of, 2688. STATE CLAIMS, Resolution of instruction to committee on revision to amend article on finance, in reference to, 2743. STATE DEBT AUTHORIZED FOR SPECIFIC PURPOSE, Remarks of Mr. Alvord on, 1861, 1865. " Andrews on, 1878, 3753. Beckwith on, 1868.. Brooks on, 3748. Church on, 1859, 1860, A b.., 3748, 3754. Remarks of Mr. Comstock on, 1861. Evarts on, 1874. Ferry on, 1873. Halo on, 1873, 3753. " Landon on, 1864. Lapham on, 1858, 1879. " M. H. Lawrence on, 1869. " McDonald on, 1853, 1870, 1872. Remarks of Mr. Magee on, 1872. Opdyke on, 1867, 1881. " Prosser on, 2246, 2248. Rathbun on; 1875, 1880. Rumsey on, 1877, 1878. Tilden on, 1877. M. I. Townsend on, 1879, 1880. Remarks of Mr. Verplanck on, 1876. INDEX. ccxix STATE DEBT, Amendment of Mr. Church in reference to, 3754. Amendment of Mr. Conger in reference to, 3755. Amendment of Mr. Folger in reference to, 3754. Amendment of Mr. Lapham in reference to, 1858. Amendment of Mr. McDonald in reference to, 1853. Remarks of Mr. Alvord on, 3746. " Church on, 1851. Evarts on, 1848, 1850. "t Folger on, 1850, 1851. Tilden on, 1848, 1849. 1852. Resolution of instruction to committee on revision to amend article on finance in reference to, 3753, 3754. STATE DEBT, PAYMENT OF IN COIN, Remarks of Mr. Barto on, 1898. " Bell on, 1899. " S. Townsend on, 1899. Resolution of instruction to committee on revision to amend article on finance in reference to, 2443. STATE ENGINEER AND SURVEYOR, Amendment of Mr. Ballard in reference to, 1286. Amendment of Mr. Beckwith in reference to, 1280, 3632. Amendment of Mr. Greeley in reference to. 1286. Amendment of Mr. Spencer in reference to, 1269. Communication from, 199, 882, 932. Communication from, in reference to enlargement of locks of Chemung canal, 391. Remarks of Mr. Alvord on, 128.2. Beckwith on, 1280, 1283. " E. Brooks on, 1282. " Fuller on, 1282. V an Cott on, 1283. Resolution of inquiry to, in reference to canals, 139. Resolution of inquiry to, in reference to construction, etc., of railroad along the upper Hudson, 852. Resolution of inquiry to, in reference to extension of Chenango canal, 643, 672. Resolution of inquiry to, in reference to lands sold by certain railroad compa nies, 852. Resolution of instruction to committee on revision to amend article on Secretary of State, Comptroller, etc., in reference to, 3632. STATE FINANCES, Resolution to postpone action in Convention on article on, 1948. STATE LIBRARIAN OF MASSACHUSETTS, Resolution to apply to, for copies of debates in reference to license and prohibition, 175, 217. STATE LIBRARY, Resolution in reference to depositing documents in, 640. STATE LIBRARY AND BOARD OF REGENTS, Resolution to furnish with debates and manual of Convention, 3927. STATE, NATIONAL GUARD OF, Resolution in reference to, 101, 145. STATE OFFICERS, Amendment of Mr. Conger in reference to 1267, 3631. Amendment of Mr.~ Duganne in reference to, 1235. Amendment of Mr. Rumsey in reference to, 1285. Amendment of Mr. Spencer in reference to, 1269. Remarks of Mr. Alvord on, 1282. "I Andrews on, 1241. " Baker on, 1250, 1251. (" Barker on, 1245. t" Beckwith on, 1280, 1283. " E. Brooks on, 1267, 1268, 1282. Remarks of Mr. E. A. Brown on, 1257.;" Cassidy on, 1237. " Church on, 1247. " CConger on, 1262, 1267, 3631. Remarks of Mr. Curtis on, 1277, 1278. It It it 1282. Daly on, 1236. Duganne on, 1242, 1274. T. W. Dwight on, 1265. Ferry on, 1263. Folger on, 1273. Fuller on, 1236, 1248, Remarks of Mr. Gerry on, 1254, 1280, 1284. ccxx IINDEX. STATE OFFICERS- Continued. Remarks of Mr. Gould on, 1276. 9" Greeley on, 1252. " Hale on, 1259. " Hiscock on, 1247. K ernan on, 1235, 1279. Ketcham on, 1284. " Lapham on, 1249. '" M. H. Lawrence on, 1253, 1254. Remarks of Mr. Opdyke on, 1253. X " Paige on, 1264. " Pierrepont on, 1240. Spencer on, 1269, 1281. l" Tilden on, 1246, 1247. " M. I. Townsend on, 1239, 1245. Remarks of Mr. Van Campen on, 1240. 1" Van Cott on, 1243, 1244 1283. Remarks of Mr. Verplanck on, 1284. Wakeman on, 1274. Resolution in reference to fees, etc., of, 144. STATE PAPER CONTAINING LAWS TO BE FURNISHED TO SCHOOL DISTRICTS, Remarks of Mr. E. Brooks on, 2100. S. Townsend on, 2101. 4" Verplanck on, 2101. STATE PRISON AT SING SING, SALE OF, Remarks of Mr. Alvord on,*3233. " S S. Townsend on, 3232. STATE PRISONS, Amendment of Mr. Alvord in reference to removal of managers of, 3231. Amendment of Mr. Axtell in reference to appointment of superintendent of, 3817. Amendment of. Mr. Axtell in reference to compensation of managers of, 3229. Amendment of Mr. Bell in reference to managers of, 3223. Amendment of Mr. W. C. Brown in refer. ence to compensation of secretary of managers of, 3226. Amendment of Mr. W. 0. Brown in reference to removal of managers of, 3233. Amendment of Mr. Conger in reference to ntumber and term of office of managers of, 3819. Amendment of Mr. C. C. Dwight in reference to appointment of managers of, 3183. Amendment of Mr. C. C. Dwight in refer. ence to appointment of officers of, 3230. Amendment of Mr. Folger in reference to annual expenses of managers of, 3226. Amendment of Mr. Graves in reference to appointment of managers of, 3223. Amendment of Mr. Graves in reference to compensation of managers of, 3227. Amendment of Mr. Greeley in reference to annual expense of managers of, 3224. Amendment of Mr. Kinney in reference to compensation of managers of, 3225. Amendment of Mr. Lapham in reference to election of secretary of managers of, 3225. Amendment of Mr. Rumsey in reference to compensation of managers of, 3224. Amendment of Mr. Rumsey in reference to number of managers of, 3204. Amendment of Mr. Wakeman in reference to election of secretary of managers of, 3224. Communication in reference to, 2228. Debate on report of committee on, 3182 to 3234. Debate on report of committee on revision on article on, 3817 to 3825. Final report of committee on revision on article on, 3845. Minority report of committee on, 1777. Remarks on petition in reference to, 183. Report of committee on, 1771 to 1777. Resolution authorizing committee on to send for persons and papers for information on prison system, 288. Resolution in reference to, 142, 156. Resolution of instruction to committee on revision to amend article on, in reference to superintendent of, 3817. Resolution to amend article on, 3817, 3819, 3820, 3822, 3824. Resolution to refer report of prison association to committee on, 156. STATE PRISONS, MANAGEMENT OF, Remarks of Mr. Alvord on, 3207, 3214, 3227. " Axtell on, 3208, 3215, 3222, 3817. Remarks of Mr. Bell on, 3215, 3216, 3223. "1 Conger on, 3818. " C. C. Dwight on, 3183, 3184, 3186, 3204, 3205, 3819. Remarks of Mr. Gould on, 3187, 3188, 3189, 3190, 3191, 3203, 3212, 3213, 3215, 3222. INDEX, ecxxi Remarks of Mr. Graves on, 3227, 3228. Remarks of Mr. Rumsey on, 3221. STATE PRISONS, SUPERINTENDENT OF, Remarks of Mr. Alvord on, 3207, 3214, 3227. Remarks of Mr. Axtell on, 3208, 3215, 3222, 3817. Remarks of Mr. Bell on, 3215, 3216, 3223. ~" Conger on, 3818. Amendment of Mr. Schoonmaker in reference to, 3643, 3648. Amendment of Mr. Van Cott in reference to, 3647. Resolution of. instruction to committee on revision to amend article on Secretary of State, Comptroller, etc., in reference t-, 3639, 3641, 3642, 3643, 3644, 3645, 3647, 3648..1 C. C. Dwight on, 3183, STENOGRAPHER, 3184, 3186, 3204, 3205, 3819. Remarks of Mr. Gould on, 3187, 311 3189, 3190, 3191, 3203, 3212, 32] 3215, 3222. Remarks of Mr. Graves on, 3227, 3228 t" Rumsey on, 3221. 38, 13, STATE REPORTER, Resolution in reference to appointment of, 141. STATE SOVEREIGNTY, Resolution of instruction to committee on revision to amend article on preamble and bill of rights, in reference to, 3558. STATE UNIVERSITY, Communication from regents of, 754. STATUTE OF LIMITATIONS, Amendment of Mr. Alvord in reference to, 2755, 3644, 3645. Amendment of Mr. Comstock in reference to, 2757. Amendment of Mr. Conger in reference to, 3643, 3644, 3647. Amendment of Mr. Develin in reference to, 2757.. Amendment of Mr. Folger in reference to, 3645, 3647. Amendment of Mr. Graves in reference to, 3642. Amendment of Mr. Hadley in reference to, 3639. Amendment of Mr. Hale. in reference to, 3639, 3641. Amendment of Mr. Krum in reference to, 2757. Amendment of Mr. Murphy in reference to, 3644. Amendment of Mr. Pond in reference to, 2757. Amendment of Mr. Robertson in reference to, 2756. Amendment of Mr. Rumsey in reference to, 3645. Appointed, 20. Oath of office administered to, 22. Remarks in reference to compensation of, 182. Report of committee on printing in reference to compensation of, 182. Resolution in reference to compensation of, 145. Resolution of thanks to, 3912. STOCKHOLDERS, Supplementary report from committee on currency, banking, etc., in reference to liabilities of, 671. STRATTON, NORMAN, A delegate from the fifth senatorial district, 88, 307, 1992, 2655. Appointed member of committee in reference to meeting of Convention in New York, 2530. Appointed member of committee on corporations other than municipal, etc., 86. Appointed member of committee on militia, etc., 96. Communication from mayor of Troy, presented by, 2655. Communication from H. B. Willson in reference to legislative corruption, presented by, 157. Communication in reference to official corruption, presented by, 249. Communication suggesting plan for judiciary of first judicial district. presented by, 642. Oath of office taken by, 18. Petition in reference to prohibiting donations to sectarian institutions, presented by, 249, 303, 445, 624, 642. Petition in reference to prohibiting the adulteration and sale of intoxicating liquors, presented by, 445, 486, 624, 642, 848, ecxxii INDEX. STRATTON, NORMAN- Continued. Petition in reference to regulating sale of intoxicating liquors, 666, 790, 882, 1171, 1194. Petition in reference to right of suffrage, presented by, 624. Remarks of, on finances of State, 3513. Remarks of, on report of committee on cities, 3117. Remarks of, on report of committee on militia and military officers, 1221, 1223. Remarks of, on report of committee on organization of Legislature, etc., 861. Remarks of, on report of committee on powers and duties of Legislature, 1330, 1356, 2128, 2787. Remarks of, on report of committee on revision on article on militia of State, 3692, 3694. Remarks of, on report of committee on the adulteration and sale of intoxicating liquors, 3289. Remarks of, on resolution in reference to adjournment, 2264. Report of committee appointed to ascertain what suitable public halls can be obtained in New York for the use of Convehtion, submitted by, 2654. Resolution in reference to meeting of Convention in New York, 2493. Resolution of inquiry to commissioners of metropolitan police in reference to number of men detailed as attendants upon police courts, etc., 643, 672. Resolution of inquiry to Comptroller of city of New York in reference to annual revenue and expenses of the city, 288, 307, 626. Resolution of inquiry to Comptroller of city of New York in reference to salaries of judges in city of New York, etc., ]98, 218. Resolution of instruction to committee on revision to amend article on judiciary in reference to surrogates, 3739. Resolution to appoint committee to ascertain what suitable public halls can be obtained in New York for the use of Convention, 2494, 2527. Resolution to instruct assistant sergeantat-arms to act as postmaster, 21. Resolution to pay expenses of committee appointed in reference to Convention meeting in another city than Albany, 3866. STREET RAILROADS, Amendment of Mr. Alvord in reference to, 1381, 2779. Amendment of Mr. Bergen in reference to, 1379, 2128, 2781, 2801. Amendment of Mr. Bickford in reference to, 1385. Amendment of Mr. E. Brooks in reference to, 2117. Amendment of Mr. Church in reference to, 3603. Amendment of Mr. Conger in reference to, 2105, 2117. Amendment of Mr. Cooke in reference to, 2116. Amendment of Mr. Curtis in reference to, 3603. Amendment of Mr. Daly in reference to, 3602. Amendment of, Mr. Duganne in reference to, 2112, 2117. Amendment of Mr. Fullerton in reference to, 2105. Amendment of Mr. Kinney in reference to, 3605. Amendment of Mr. Livingston in reference to, 2801, 3113. Amendment of Mr. McDonald in reference to, 2119, 3113. Amendment of Mr. Morris in reference to, 2778. Amendment of Mr. Nelson in reference to, 2128. Amendment of Mr. Prindle in reference to, 2101, 2105. Amendment of Mr. Rathbun in reference to, 2105. Amendment of Mr. Robertson in reference to, 2802. Amendment of Mr. Rumsey in reference to, 3603, 3627. Amendment of Mr. Stratton in reference to, 2125, 2127. Amendment of Mr. Van Campen in reference to, 3608. Amendment of Mr. Veeder in reference to, 2105, 2127, 2782. Amendment of Mr. Verplanck in reference to, 2116, 9779. Amendment of Mr. Weed in reference to, 2106. INDEX. CGxxiii Resolution of instruction to committee on revision to amend article on powers and duties of Legislature, in reference to, 3602, 3603, 3604, 3605, 3607, 3608, 3677. STREET RAILROADS NOT TO BE CONSTRUCTED WITHOUT CONSENT OF LOCAL AUTHORITIES, Remarks of Mr. Alvord on, 2119, 2120, 2779. Remarks of Mr. Bergen on, 2781, 3608, 3685. Remarks of Mr. Bickford on, 2127. E. Brooks on, 2114, 2780. Comstock on, 2783, 3683, 3849. Remarks of Mr. Conger on, 2105, 2118, 2127. Remarks of Mr. Cooke on, 2116. Duganne on, 2112, 3684. C. C. Dwight on, 3604. Ferry on, 2124, 2125. " Fullerton on, 2104. Hale on, 2128. Lapham on, 2779. 3609. " Livingston on, 2801, 3111, 3114. Remarks of Mr. 3606, 3607. McDonald on, 2119, 3111, Remarks of Mr. Wakeman on, 2122, 2802. " Weed on, 2106, 2108, 2111, 2114. 2115, 2124. STRONG, SELAH B., A delegate from the first senatorial district, 32, 90, 882. Appointed member of committee on charities, etc., 96. Oath of office taken by, 18. Proposition of, to amend Constitution by, 177. Remarks of, on consideration of report of committee on rules, 52, 54. Remarks of, on report of committee appointed to report manner of revision of Constitution, 80. Remarks of, on report of 'committee on counties, towns, etc., 1158. Remarks of, on report of committee on pardoning power, 1190. Remarks of, on rule requiring a majority of delegates to amend Constitution, 215. Voted for for President, 19. STUDENTS' IN SEMINARIES, RIGHT OF TO VOTE, Remarks of Mr. C. C. Dwight on, 3570. SUBMISSION OF AMENDMENTS TO FEDERAL CONSTITUTION TO LEGISLATURE, Resolution in reference to, 411. SUBMIS~ION OF CONSTITUTION, Amendment of Mr. Bell in reference to manner of, 3922. Amendment of Mr. Cooke in reference to manner of, 3913. Amendment of Mr. Daly in reference to manner of, 3876. Amendment of Mr. Francis in reference to manner of, 3907. Amendment of Mr. Landon in reference to manner of, 3892. Amendment of Mr. Verplanck in reference to manner of, 3919. Amendment of Mr. Williams in reference to time of, 3893. Debate on resolution to appoint committee to report mode of, 392 to 411. Report of committee on, 3790. Resolution in reference to manner of, 3913, 3918. Resol'ition in reference to time of, 3893, 3906, 3911, 3928. Resolution to amend report of committee on amendments to and, 3876. Remar rks of Mr. Miller on, 2122. t" Morris on, 2778. Murphy on, 3114. (" Nelson on, 2128. " Opdyke on, 2112, 2124, 2784, 3114, 3684. Remarks of Mr. Prindle on, 2101, 2105. i" Rathbun on, 2105, 2108, 2109, 2111, 2117, 2118, 2123, 3112, 3116. Remarks of Mr. Robertson on, 2784, 2802. Remarks of Mr. Rumsey on, 2102, 2110, 2126, 2782, 3111, 3603. Remarks of Mr. Smith on, 2113.. Stratton on, 2782, 3112. " M. I. Townsend on, 2107, 2110, 2113, 2114, 2120, 2121, 2126, 2780, 2781, 2784, 2802, 3113, 3115, 3850. Remarks of Mr. S. Townsend on, 2803. " an Campen on, 2119, 3608. Remarks of Mr. Veeder on, 2105, 2107, 2110, 2120, 2783. Remarks of Mr. Verplanck on, 2115, 2779, 3608, 3685. ccxxiv INDEX. SUBMISSION OF CONSTITUTION —Continued. Resolution to appoint committee on, 2814. Resolution to transmit resolution in relation to, to Legislature, 3949. SUBMISSION OF CONSTITUTION AND AMENDMENTS, Debate on report of committee on, 3876 to 396'. SUBMISSION OF CONSTITUTION, TIME. AND MANNER Amendment of Mr. Verplanck in reference to, 2653. Resolution of instruction to committee on revision to amend article on judiciary, in reference to, 3722. SUFFRAGE, RIGHT OF, OF, Remarks of Mr. Alvord on, 3897. " Church on, 3897. Comstock on, 3905. " * Conger on, 3895. " Cooke on, 3923. *" Daly on, 3924, 3925. "d C. C. Dwight on, 3923. " Ferry on, 3896. " Hale on, 3902, 3903. Hutchins on, 3893, 3894. " Landon on, 3893. " Lapham on, 3928. *" Merritt on, 3895. (" Murphy on, 3923. <" Smith on, 3898, 3900. " M. I. Townsend on, 3901, 3902, 3923. Remarks of Mr. Verplanck on, 3904. I" Williams on, 3896. SUBMITTING APPOINTMENT OF JUDICIARY TO THE PEOPLE, Amendment of Mr. Andrews in reference to, 2544. Amendment of Mr. E. Brooks in reference to, 3722. Amendment of Mr. E. A. Brown in reference to, 2545, 2652. Amendment of Mr. Comstock in reference to, 2653. Amendment of Mr. Cooke in reference to, 2653. Amendment of Mr. Folger in reference to, 2545, 2707. Amendment of Mr. Harris in reference to, 2698. Amendment of Mr. Krum in reference to, 2546, 2707. Amendment of Mr. Murphy in reference to, 2653. Amendment of Mr. Tappen in. reference to, 2545. Amendment of Mr. Van Cott m reference to, 3722. ' Debate on report of committee on, 200 to 214, 219 to 232, 235 to 249, 253 to 264, 266 to 279, 279 to 283, 290to 302, 310 to 321, 323 to 349, 364 to 379, 380 to 391, 417 to436,436 to 444, 453 to 465, 465 to 485, 487 to 504, 504 to 527, 528 to 540, 540 to 551, 553 to 565, 565 to 574, 574 to 589, 589 to 609, 611 to 623. Debate on report of committee on revision on, 3560 to 3586. Final report of committee on revision on, 3597. Petition against extending to Indians, 3239. Petition from colored citizens praying for, 96. Petition in reference to, 171, 391,445, 625. Remarks on resolution to close debate on report of committee on, 356 to 358. Report of committee on, taken up, 199. Report on resolution in reference to action on report, 446 to 452. Resolution instructing committee on re. vision to amend article on, in reference to registry, 623. Resolution in reference to, 100, 101, 124, 138, 363. Resolution in reference to educational qualifications for, 138. Resolution in reference to extending to Indians, 137. Resolution in reference to extension of, 102. Resolution in reference to revision of, 622. Resolution in reference to separate sub. mission of article on, 2059. Resolution in reference to withholding, etc., 173. Resolution of instruction to committee on revision to amend article on, in reference to disfranchisement, 3565. Resolution of instruction to committee on revision to amend article on, in reference to education qualification, 3560, 3563. Resolution of instruction to committee on revision to amend.article on, in referenco to failure to register, 3578. INDEX. Eccxx Resolution of instruction to committee on revision to amend article on, in reference to female suffrage, 3562. Resolution of instruction to committee on revision to amend article on, in reference to gain or loss of residence in time of war, 622. Resolution of instruction to committee on revision to amend article on, in reference to penalty for omission to vote, 3585. Resolution of instruction to committee on revision to amend article on, in reference to proof of right to vote, 1911. Resolution of instruction to committee on revision to amend article on, in reference to registry law, 623, 641, 644, 3570, 3571, 3577, 3580, 3581, 3582. Resolution of instruction to committee on revision to amend article on, in reference to right of students to vote, 2815, 3570. Resolution of instruction to committee on revision to amend article on, in reference to rights of voters, 2205. Resolution of instruction to committee on revision to amend article on, in reference to uniformity of registry laws, 3574. Resolution instructing committee on revision to add section to article, 2205. Resolution instructing committee on revision to amend, 622, 1911. Resolution instructing committee on revision to amend article, 2815. Resolution to amend Constitution in reference to, 138, 177. Resolution to close debate on report of committee on, 321, 322, 355. Resolution to consider report of committee on, 199. Special order on report of committee on, 528, 553, 574. SUFFRAGE, FEMALE, Petition in favor of, 96, 104, 157, 177, 192, 194, 196, 214, 232, 250. 283, 350, 391, 624. Debate on, 364. Resolution granting use of hall to advocates of, 143. Resolution in reference to, 134, 165, 233. Resolution to appoint committee on, 38, 126, 218. SUFFRAGE, NEGRO, Petition against, 486. 29 SUFFRAGE, UNIFORM SYSTEM OF, Resolution in reference to, 279. SUITS AND JUDGMENTS AGAINST CITY OF NEW YORK, Resolution of inquiry in reference to, 646, 673. SUPERFLUOUS OFFICES, Resolution to appoint committee on, 37. SUPERIOR COURT AND COURT OF COMMON PLEAS OW CITY OF NEW YORK, Amendment of Mr. Andrews in reference to, 3720. Amendment of Mr. Comstock in reference to, 2548, 2663. Amendment of Mr. Cooke in reference to, 2437, 2547, 2653. Amendment of Mr. Evarts in reference to, 2551. Amendment of Mr. Folger in reference to, 2663, 3776. Amendment of Mr. Hale in reference to 2551. Amendment of Mr. Lapham in reference to, 2664. Amendment of Mr. Miller in reference to, 2662. Amendment of Mr. Monell in reference to, 3724. Amendment of Mr. Murphy in reference to, 2653, 2662. Amendment of Mr. Spencer in reference to, 2548. Amendment of Mr. Verplanck in reference to, 2653. Remarks of Mr. Alvord on, 2438, 2552, 2554. Remarks of Mr. Andrews on, 2556. "t Barker on, 2664. " Beckwith on, 2663. " Bergen on, 2662. (" Bickford on, 2556. " E. A. Brown on, 2559. t" Comstock on,. 2437, 2438, 2547, 2553, 3719. Remarks of Mr. Cooke on, 2548. " Daly on, 2550. f" Evarts on, 2551, 2552, 2555, 2664. Remarks of Mr. Perry on, 2438. *' Folger on, 2664, 3719. " Graves on, 2662. " Hale on, 2554, 2559. Krum on, 2552, 2658. INDEX. SUPExROR COURT, TC. —Continued. Remarks of Mr. Lapham on, 2664, 3719. '; Miller on, 2662. <" Murphy on, 2663. " A. J. Parker on, 2574, 3719. Remarks of Mr. Pierrepont on, 2560. " Pond on, 2664. " Rathbun on, 2557. i" Robertson on, 2548, 2549. 4" Smith on, 2550, 2560. Spencer on, 2665. " S. Townsend on, 2437, 2549. Remarks of Mr. Young on, 2552, 2558. SUPERIOR COURT FOR CITY OF BUFFALO, Petition against establishing, 1955. SUPERIOR COURT OF COUNTY OF NEW YORK, Communication from clork of, in reference to causes pending therein, 391. SUPERINTENDENT OF PUBLIC INST'RCTION, Amendment of Mr. Alvord in reference to abolishing office of, 2841. Amendment of Mr. Hadley in reference to appointment of, 2902. Amendment of Mr. McDonald in reference to appointment of, 2882. Amendment of Mr. Robertson in reference to appointment of, 2882. Communication from, 626. Petition in reference to appointment of, 624, 848. Remarks of Mr. C. L. Allen on, 2884. Alvord on, 2841, 2849, 2850, 2865, 2890. Remarks of Mr. Bell on, 2842. " Comstock on, 2903, 2904, 2906, 2907. Remarks of Mr. Curtis on, 2843, 2883, 2887, 2905, 2906, 2908. Remarks of Mr. Ferry on, 2907. (" Gould on, 2866, 2868, 2903, 2905. Remarks of Mr. Graves on, 2842. " Hadley on, 2902. It Hale on, 2852, 2854. " Kinney on, 2856. " ZLarremore on, 2882, 2883. " McDonald on, 2882. " A. J. Parker on, 2857, 2858, 2896. Remarks of Mr. Smith on, 2862, 2886.. M. I. Townsend on, 2848, 2860, 2851, 2852, 2894. Remarks of Mr. S. Townsend on, 2851, 2852. Remarks of Mr. Van Campen on, 2885. (" Verplanck on, 2860, 2861, 2862, 2886. Remarks of Mr. Wakeman on, 2856. Remarks on, in reference to common schools, 284 to 288. Resolution in reference to appointment of, 233. Resolution of inquiry to, in reference to common schools, 217. SUPERINTENDENT OF PUBLIC WORKS, Amendment of Mr. Alvord in reference to. 2054. Amendment of Mr. Bell in reference to, 3634. Amendment of Mr. Bergen in reference to, 2038. Amendment of Mr. Bickford in reference to, 2053. Amendment of Mr. E. Brooks in reference to, 2052. Amendment of Mr. E. P. Brooks in reference to, 2348, 2355, 3633, 3637. Amendment of Mr. E. A. Brown in reference to, 3638. Amendment of Mr. Chesebro in reference to, 2347, 3634. Amendment of Mr. Comstock in reference to, 3652. Amendment of Mr. Conger in reference to, 2053. Amendment of Mr. Cooke in reference to, 2054, 2056. Amendment of Mr. Graves in reference to, 3652. Amendment of Mr. Hadley in reference to, 3634. Amendment of Mr. Kinney in reference to, 2347. Amendment of Mr. Landon in reference to, 2056. Amendment of Mr. Lapham in reference to, 3641, 3651, 3652. Amendment of Mr. McDonald in reference to, 2347. Amendment of Mr. Rumsey in reference to, 3634, 3635. Amendment of Mr. Schoonmaker in reference to, 3635, 3636, 3651. Amendment of Mr. Spencer in reference to, 2049. INDEX. ccxxvii Amendment of Mr. Tappen in reference to, 2347. Amendment of Mr. S/ Townsend in reference to, 3634. Amendment of Mr. Wales in reference to, 2041. Resolution of instruction to committee on revision to amend article on canals, in reference to, 3064. Resolution of instruction to committee on revision to amend article on Secretary of State, Comptroller, etc., in reference to, 3633, 3634, 3635, 3637, 3641, 3652. SUPERINTENDENT OF PUBLIC WORKS, APPOINTMENT OF, Remarks of Mr. Alvord on, 2039, 2043, 2045, 2050, 2051, 2052, 2055, 2347, 3638. Remarks of Mr. Beckwith on, 2046, 2349, 3651. Remarks of Mr. Bell on, 2348. " Bergen on, 2038, 2041. " Bickford on, 2056. 9" E. Brooks on, 2050. it E. P. Brooks on, 2348, 3633, 3637. Remarks of Mr. E. A. Brown on, 2040, 2047, 2049. Remarks of Mr. Conger on, 2042, 2051. " Cooke on, 2054, 2055. 1" Hardenburgh on, 2349. " Landon on, 2056. " Lapham on, 3636, 3651. " McDonald on, 2347. Prosser on, 2052, 2053. Rathbun on, 3635, 3637. " Rumsey on, 3635. 4" Schoonmaker on, 3636. Spencer on, 2049, 2051. " S. Townsend on, 2041, 3635. SUPERINTENDENT OF STATE PRISONS, Resolution of instruction to committee on revision to amend article on State prisons in reference to, 3817. SUPERINTENDENT OF STATE PRISONS, PROVISION FOR REMOVAL OF, Remarks of Mr. Alvord on, 3231. SUPERVISORS, BOARD OF, Resolution in reference to, 173. Resolution in reference to jurisdiction of, 233, 446, 978. Resolution of instruction to committee on revision to amend article on town and county officers in reference to, 3654, 3655, 3658, 3659, 3660, 3661. SUPERVISORS OF NEW YORK, Remarks of Mr. Burrill on, 3514. " Daly on, 3511. Duganne on, 3516. c" Folger on, 3515. Garvin on, 3161, 3513. Opdyke on, 3162. " Robertson on, 3515. Smith on, 3512. " Stratton on, 3513. " S. Townsend on, 3162. SUPERVISORS, POWERS AND DUTIES OF, Amendment of Mr. A. F. Allen in reference to, 979. Amendment of Mr. C. L. Allen in reference to, 3658. Amendment of Mr. Alvord in reference to, 942. Amendment of Mr. Andrews in reference to, 953. Amendment of Mr. Barker in reference to, 961, 992. Amendment of Mr. Barnard in reference to, 958. Amendment of Mr. Beckwith in reference to, 977, 3660. Amendment of Mr. Bergen in reference to, 3519. Amendment of Mr. Bickford in reference to, 3521. Amendment of Mr. E. Brooks in reference to, 985, 1135. Amendment of Mr. Church in reference to, 983. Amendment of Mr. Conger in reference to, 970, 3520, 3659. Amendment of Mr. Cooke in reference to, 974, 977, 993. Amendment of Mr. Curtis in reference to, 3522. Amendment of Mr. Daly in reference to, 3517. Amendment of Mr. Duganne in reference to, 991. Amendment of Mr. C. C. Dwight in reference to, 977. Amendment of Mr. T. W. Dwight in ref. erence to, 980. CCxxviii INDEX. SUPERVISORS, ETC.- Continued. Amendment of Mr. Folger in reference to, 974, 979, 3517. Amendment of Mr. Garvin in reference to, 3517. Amendment of Mr. Gould in reference to, 3654. Amendmeht of Mr. Grant in reference to, 962. Amendment of Mr. Greeley in reference to, 975, 994. Amendment of Mr. Hadley in reference to, 931, 983, 3691. Amendment of Mr. Hale in reference to, 931, 990. Amendment of Mr. Harris in reference to, 974. Amendment of Mr. Kernan in reference to, 972. Amendment of Mr. Krum in reference to, 963. Amendment of Mr. Landon in reference to, 961. Amendment of Mr. Lapham in reference to, 976, 3659, 3660. Amendment of Mr. Lowrey in reference to, 984. Amendment of Mr. Masten in reference to, 976, 996. Amendment of Mr. Merrill in reference to, 3655. Amendment of Mr. Merritt in reference to, 3520. Amendment of Mr. Merwin in reference to, 979. Amendment of Mr. Pond in reference to, 991. Amendment of Mr. Prosser in reference to, 991. Amendment of Mr. Rathbun in reference to, 973, 975, 982. Amendment of Mr. Rumsey in reference to, 937, 976, 995, 3517, 3661. Amendment of Mr. Schoonmaker in refer. ence to, 981. Amendment of Mr. Seaver in reference to, 976. Amendment of Mr. Seymour in reference to, 995. Amendment of Mr. Sherman in reference to, 1007. Amendment of Mr. Silvester in reference to, 3659. Amendment of Mr. Smith in reference to, 3512. Amendment of Mr. Spencer in reference to, 983. Amendment of Mr. Van Cott in reference to, 974, 992. Amendment of Mr. Veeder in reference to, 958. SUPERVISORS AND THEIR POWERS, Remarks of Mr. A. F. Alien on, 981. " 0C. L. Allen on, 3658. i" Alvord on, 954, 965, 996, 3517, 3519, 3654, 3660. Remarks of Mr. Andrews on, 953, 971, 997. Remarks of Mr. Ballard on, 995. t" Barker on, 959, 960, 961, 993. Remarks of Mr. Barnard on, 958, 959. Beckwith on, 977, 985. " Bergen on, 962, 981, 990, 997, 3521. Remarks of Mr. E. Brooks on, 936, 944, 953, 985. Remarks of Mr. E. A. Brown on, 957, 961. Burrill on, 3514. Church on, 983, 997. (" Clinton on, 969, 981. Comstock on, 3655. Conger on, 962, 970, 975. " Cooke on, 976, 993. Corbett on, 931, 932, 937. " Curtis on, 3522, 3658. " Daleyon, 947, 965, 967, 3511. Remarks of Mr. Duganne on, 956, 969, 989, 3516. Remarks of Mr. C. C. Dwight on, 973, 3655, 3656. Remarks of Mr. T. W. Dwight on, 979. t" Eddy on, 944. " Evarts on, 943, 980, 982. " Folger on, 938, 950, 3515, 3657. Remarks of Mr. Garvin on, 966, 1135, 3512. Remarks of Mr. Gerry on, 948. " Gould on, 3654. Grant on, 944, 962. Graves on, 985 " Greeley on, 939, 943, 960, 979, 993, 994. 1136. INDEX. ccxxix Remarks of Mr. Hadley on, 955, 961, 983, 1134. Remarks of Mr. Hale on, 936, 990. " and on, 946, 988. " tHardenburgh on, 997, 3658, 3659. Remarks of Mr. Harris on, 964, 984. " Hutchins on, 947, 948, 949, 950. Remarks of Mr. Kernan on, 945, 972, 980, 982, 984. Remarks of Mr. Krum on, 962, 3523. " Lapham on, 976, 985, 3659. Remarks of Mr. A. Lawrence on, 942, 946. Lowrey on, 984. McDonald on, 940, 941, 965, 973, 988, 3657. Remarks of Mr. Masten on, 976. Merritt on, 3523. "i Monell on, 3509. A" Opdyke on, 943, 952, 1136. Remarks of Mr. A. J. Parker, 954. Pond on, 980, 996. Rathbun on, 939, 951, 956, 982, 987. Remarks of Mr. Robertson on, 951, 3515. " Rumsey on, 937, 995, 3618. Remarks of Mr. Seaver on, 976, 995. Seymour on, 982, 995. t" Sherman on, 1008. t" Smith on, 931, 967, 968, 984, 994, 3512, 3519, 3522, 3655, 3656. Remarks of Mr. Spencer on, 971. Stratton on, 3513. M. I. Townsend on, 995. " S. Townsend on, 941, 988, 989, 994. Remarks of Mr. Van Cott on, 974, 984, 992, 3657. Remarks of Mr. Verplanck on, 986. Wickham on, 963. SUPREME COURT, Remarks of Mr. C. L. Allen on, 2450. t" Alvord on, 2438, 2552, 2554, 2576, 2577, 2708. Remarks of Mr. Andrews on, 2475, 2476, 2477, 2543, 2556, 2679, 2680. Remarks of Mr. Baker on, 2514, 2515, 2518, 2519, 2541. Remarks of Mr. Barker on, 2436, 2468, 2471, 2472, 2648, 2664. Remarks of Mr. Beckwith on, 2474, 2537, 2646, 2663. Remarks of Mr. Bergen on, 2662. Bickford on, 2556. E. A. Brown on, 2421, 2510, 2512, 2538, 2559, 2575, 2577. Remarks of Mr. Chesebro on, 2696, 2708. Church on, 2536. " Comstock on, 2435, 2436, 2437, 2438, 2451, 2536, 2547, 2553, 2575, 2677, 2681, 3710, 3719. Remarks of Mr. Cooke on, 2452, 2456, 2495, 2543, 2548, 2666. Remarks of Mr. Curtis on, 2582, 2584. ' Daly on, 2459, 2550, 2578, 2681, 2698, 3712. Remarks of Mr. Evarts on, 2473, 2536, 2541, 2543, 2551, 2552, 2555. Remarks of Mr. Ferry on, 2438 2506, 2580, 2581. Remarks of Mr. Folger on, 2454, 2530, 2645, 2664, 2696, 2698, 3709, 3710,3719. Remarks of Mr. Goodrich on, 2456, 2458. " Graves on, 2575, 2662. t" Hadley on, 2695, 2708. " Hale on, 2409, 2411, 2412, 2413, 2414, 2415, 2416, 2435, 2450, 2451, 2469, 2470, 2508, 2533, 2542, 2554, 2559, 2644, 2708. Remarks of Mr. Hand on, 2585, 2586. Hardenburgh on, 2648, 2650, 2651, 2677, 2678, 2681. Remarks of Mr. Harris on, 3709. Lapham on, 2664, 3719. 1" M. H. Lawrence on, 2579.. " McDonald on, 2416, 2418, 2419, 3712. Remarks of Mr. Magee on, 2588. "' Miller on, 2662. "l Murphy on, 2663, 2666. A" A. J. Parker on, 2434, 2507, 2574, 2683, 3719. Remarks of Mr. Pierrepont on, 2500, 2501, 2533, 2560. Remarks of Mr. Pond on, 2664. " Prmdle on, 2460. " Rathbun on, 2462, 2463, 2544, 2557, 2587. Remarks of Mr. Smith on, 2434, 2464, 2467, 2468, 2472, 2542, 2550, 2560, 2584, 2589. ccxxx INDEX. SUPREME COURT- Continued. Remarks of Mr. Spencer on, 2420, 2455, 2522, 2523, 2665. Remarks of Mr. M. I. Townsend on, 2452, 2453, 2455, 2505, 2538, 2542, 2582. Remarks cf Mr. S. Townsend on, 2437, 2549. Remarks of Mr. Wakeman on, 2425, 2435, 2537, 2682. Remarks of Mr. Young on, 2534, 2535, 2536, 2539, 2552, 2558, 2579, 2580. Resolution of instruction to committee on revision to amend article on judiciary in reference to, 3709. Resolution of instruction to committee on revision to amend article on judiciary in reference to general terms of, 3710, 3711, 3712. Resolution of instruction to committee on revision to amend article on judiciary in reference to judges of, 3708. Resolution of instruction to committee on revision to amend article on judiciary in reference to vacancies in, 3734. SUPREME COURT AND COURT OF APPEALS, Resolution of instruction to committee on revision to amend article on judiciary in reference to judges of, 3717. Amendment of Mr. Goodrich in reference to, 2456. Amendment of Mr. Hale in reference to, 2409, 2644, 2648. Amendment of Mr. Harris in reference to, 3708. Amendment of Mr. McDonald in reference to, 2534, 2649. Amendment of Mr. Murphy in reference to, 2647. Amendment of Mr. Prindle in reference to, 2478. Amendment of Mr. Robertson in reference to, 2647. Amendment of Mr. Rumsey in reference to, 2651. Amendment of Mr. Smith in reference to, 2574. Amendment of Mr. Spencer in reference to, 2420, 2551, 2644, 2647. SUPREME COURT DECLARING LAWS UNCONSTITUTIONAL, Remarks of Mr. Comstock on, 3356, 3360. " Lapham on, 3364. SUPPORT OF COMMON SCHOOLS, Petition in reference to, 2356. n,,,,,,,,,,,, ~UPP'ORT UF 1POO-, SUPREME COURT AND COURT OF APPEALS, VACAN- Rtruction to commie Resolution of instruction to committee on CIES IN, Remarks of Mr. C. L. Allen on, 2450. 6* Alvord on, 2708. "t Comstock on, 2451. Cooke on, 2452. "d C. C. Dwight on, 3727. " Hadley on, 2708, "' Hale on, 2450, 2451, 2708. SUPREME COURT, JUDGES OF, Amendment of Mr. Baker in reference to, 2539, 2540, 2649. Amendment of Mr. Barker in reference to, 2648. Amendment of Mr. E. A. Brown in reference to, 2538, 2555. 2647. Amendment of Mr. Church in reference to, 2536, 2551. Amendment of Mr. Comstock in reference to, 2536, 2649, 3709. Amendment of Mr. Cooke in reference to, 2532. Amendment of Mr. Folger in reference to, 2632, 2646. I revision to amend article on counties, towns, etc., in reference to money raised for, 1271. SURROGATE, Resolution of instruction to committee on revision to amend article on judiciary in reference to, 2971, 3004, 3739. Resolution of instruction to committee on revision to amend article on judiciary in reference to salary of, 3734. SURROGATES' COURTS, Remarks of Mr. E. Brooks on, 2634. IC I s.C (( (; (L E. A. Brown on, 3724. Church on, 3725. Conger on, 3733. Evarts on, 2633. Folger on, 2633, 3725. Hutchins on, 3735. Rumsey on, 3725. Spencer on, 2634. Resolution in reference to fees in, 186. Resolution of instruction to committee on INDEX. revision to amend article on judiciary in reference to trial by jury of issues in, 3724. TANNER, JAMES, Appointed doorkeeper, 29. Oath of office taken by, 33. TAPPAN, ABRAHAM B., A delegate from the ninth senatorial district, 356, 363, 555, 721, 746, 751. Appointed member of committee on canals, 95. Minority report from committee on canals, in reference to lateral canals, submitted by, 816. Oath of office taken by, 18. Remarks of, on report of committee on town and county officers, etc., 972. Remarks of, on resolution in reference to reports of committees, 1011, 1012. Remarks of, on resolution to adjourn to Saratoga, 360. Resolution in reference to reports of committees, 935, 1011. Resolution in reference to right of suffrage, 363. Resolution to amend Constitution in reference to organization of Legislature, 101. Resolution to authorize committees to sit during recess, 1970. Resolution to close debate on report of committee on suffrage, 355. Resolution to supply members of Convention with proceedings of Convention of 1846, 25. TARIFF ON RAILROADS, Resolution in reference to, 234, 266. TAXATION, Amendment of Mr. A. F. Allen in reference to, 1900, 1923, 2266, 2272, 3757. Amendment of Mr. Alvord in reference to, 2304, 2310, 3759. Amendment of Mr. Barto in reference to, 2336. Amendment of Mr. Beckwith in reference to, 3496. Amendment of Mr. Bickford in reference to, 1982: 1985, 1989, 2337. Amendment of Mr. E. Brooks in reference to, 1982, 1989, 2334. Amendment of Mr. E. A. Brown in reference to, 1987. ccxxi Amendment of Mr. W. C. Brown in reference to, 1981. Amendment of Mr. Church in reference to, 3755. Amendment of Mr. Comstock in reference to, 3757. Amendment of Mr. Conger in reference to, 3756. Amendment of Mr. Cooke in reference to, 1987. Amendment of Mr. Duganne in reference to, 2261, 2339. Amendment of Mr. Gould in reference to, 2339, 3760. Amendment of Mr. Greeley in reference to, 1169. Amendment of Mr. Hale in reference to, 2331. Amendment of Mr. McDonald in reference to, 1948, 1982, 2171, 2266. Amendment of Mr. Magee in reference to, 1904, 2567. Amendment of Mr. Merritt in reference to, 3496. Amendment of Mr. Opdyke in reference to, 2318. Amendment of Mr. Rathbun in reference to, 2248, 2261. Amendment of Mr. Robertson in reference to, 3499. Amendment of Mr. Rumsey in reference to, 1952, 2799, 3496, 3499. Amendment of Mr. Silvester in reference to, 2340. Amendment of Mr. Spencer in reference to, 1946, 2335, 3759. Amendment of Mr. M. I. Townsend in reference to, 2319. Amendment of Mr. S. Townsend in reference to, 1988, 2272, 2303, 2340, 3496. Amendment of Mr. Van Campen in reference to, 3496. Amendment of Mr. Van Cott in reference to, 2331, 3760. Debate on, 3485 to 3501. Petition in reference to, 1132. Remarks of Mr. A. F. Allen on, 1900, 3489, 3761. Remarks of Mr. Alvord on, 1904, 1906, 1936, 1938, 2304, 2310, 2311, 2320, 2322, 3487, 3488, 3497, 3761. Remarks of Mr. Andrews on, 2326, 2337 ". Barker on, 2308. JNDEX. TAxixON- Continued. Remarks of Mr. Beadle on, 3494. t" Beckwith on, 2267, 3492, 3493. Remarks of Mr. Bell on, 1908, 2308, 2321, 3760. Remarks of Mr. Bergen on, 2316, 3486, 3487, 3759, 3761. Remarks of Mr. Bickford on, 1982, 1987, 1989, 2337. Remarks of Mr. E. Brooks on, 1982, 1987, 2312, 2335, 3488. Remarks of Mr. W. C. Brown on, 1980. " Burrill on, 1906, 1908, 3498. Remarks of Mr. Church on, 1927, 1929, 1930, 1932, 1933) 2331, 2332, 2338. Remarks of Mr. Comstock on, 3485, 3499. " Conger on, 1983, 1985, Remarks of Mr. Spencer on. 1946, 1952, 2308, 2309, 2335. Remarks of Mr. Tilden on, 1926, 1927. " M. I. Townsend on, 1944, 1984, 2270, 2326, 2327, 3762. Remarks of Mr. S. Townsend on, 1980, 1988, 2269, 2303, 2304, 2340, 3500. Remarks of Mr. Van Cott on, 2331. Verplanck on, 1946. " Wakeman on, 1939, 2306, 2314, 2315, 2323. Resolution in reference to, 124, 138, 160. Resolution in reference to exemption of property from, 102. Resolution instructing committee on revision to amend article on, 2443. Resolution of instruction to committee on revision to amend article on counties, towns, etc., in reference to, 1911. Resolution of instruction to committee on revision to amend article on finance in reference to, 2443, 3755, 3757, 3760. Resolution of instruction to committee on revision to amend article on preamble and bill of rights in reference to, 3066, 3557. Resolution to refer resolution in reference to, to committee on revision, 2625. 1986. Remarks of It Mr. Cooke on, 1987. Daly on, 3484. DTiannn nn. 99fi1 9231.1 2314. Remarks of Mr. Ferry on, 3486. Francis on, 2327. Gould on, 2339, 3760. " Hale on, 2320. " Hand on, 1942, 1943, 2306, 2319. Remarks of Mr. Hardenburgh on, 2307. "& Hutchins on, 1921, 1922, 1923, 1924, 1925. Remarks of Mr. Krum on, 2325. Lapham on, 1946. McDonald on, 1948,1981, 2266, 2267. Remarks of Mr. Magee on, 1903. " Murphy on, 1947, 1979, 1983, 1985, 2321, 2323, 2324, 3497. Remarks of Mr. Opdyke on, 1933, 1952. 1984, 2309, 2310, 2318, 2323, 3484, 3740, 3759, 3762. Remarks of Mr. Pierrepont on, 1919,1920. " Pond on, 3491, 3492, 3741. Remarks of Mr. Rathbun on, 2267, 2316, 2324, 2325. Remarks of Mr. Robertson on, 3499. Rumsey on, 1947, 3490, 3499, 3761. Remarks of Mr. Silvester on, 3484; Smith on, 3495. TAXATION FOR INTERNAL IMPROVEMENT, Amendment of Mr. Bell in reference to, 3676. Amendment of Mr. Bickford in reference to, 1799. Amendment of Mr. Church in reference to, 1799, 2244. Amendment of Mr. Hale in reference to, 1805. Amendment of Mr. Rathbun in reference to, 1818. Amendment of Mr. S. Townsend in reference to, 1818. Remarks of Mr. Alvord on, 1820, 1821, 2244. Remarks of Mr. E. A. Brown on, 1826. (" Church on, 1819. (" Hale on, 1823. " McDonald on, 2244. (" Prindle on, 1824. Rathbun on, 1822, 2244. " S. Townsend on, 1824. TAXATION IN, ORGANIZATION OF, AND RESTRICTIONS UPON CITIES, Remarks of Mr. Alvord on, 3166. INr Remarks of Mr. W. C. Brown on, 3167. D aly on, 3167. Francis on, 3165. Murphy on, 3165. Opdyke on, 3166. " Pond on, 3167. TAXATION, LAWS IN REFERENCE TO, Remarks of Mr. AJvord on, 3755. (" Church on, 3755. TAX COMMISSIONERS, Resolution of inquiry to, in reference to value of real estate owned by religious denominations, 363, 646. TAX COMMISSIONERS OF CITY OF NEW YORK, Communication from, 142. TAX FOR SCHOOL PURPOSES, Remarks of Mr. Alvord on, 2923, 2925. c" Barto on, 2908. t" Bergen on, 2923. " Bickford on, 2918. " E. Brooks on, 2917. " Curtis on, 2919. Develin on, 2921. " Kinney on, 2913. l" Opdyke on, 2918. Rumsey on, 2916. S. Townsend on, 2924. i AXS, Resolution in reference to, 2216. Resolution instructing committee on revision to strike out provisions in reference to assessment of, 2358. Resolution to extend time for collection of, 142. TAXES AND RENTS, Petition in reference to equalizing, 2216. TAX PAYERS IN CITY OF NEW YORK,. Resolution in reference to number of, 100, 120. TEMPERANCE SYSTEM OF MEDICINE, Petition in reference to, 2281. TENANT OP ESTATE OF INHERITANCE, Remarks of Mr. Duganne on, 3550. Resolution of instruction to committee on revision to amend article on preamble and bill of rights in reference to, 3550. TENURE OF OFFICE OF JUDGES, Amendment of Mr. Barto in reference to, 2636. Amendment of Mr. Bickford in reference to, 2592. 30 ccxxxiii CCXXZL1lI Amendment of Mr. E. Brooks in reference to, 3707, 3726. Amendment of Mr. E. A. Brown in reference to, 2555, 2665. Amendment of Mr. Chesebro in reference to, 2708. Amendment of Mr. Comstock in reference to, 2575. Amendment of Mr. Cooke in reference to, 2666. Amendment of Mr. Evarts in reference to, 2635, 2636. Amendment of Mr. Hadley in reference to, 2695. Amendment of Mr. Hardenburgh in reference to, 2636. Amendment of Mr. Harris in reference to, 2696. Amendment of Mr. Kinney in reference to, 2668. Amendment of Mr. Larremore in reference to, 3720. Amendment of Mr. McDonald in reference to, 2591. Amendment of Mr. Prindle in reference to, 2667. Amendment of Mr. Smith in reference to, 2666. Amendment of Mr. Wakeman in reference to, 2636. Remarks of Mr. Alvord on, 2576, 2577. " E. A. Brown on, 2575, 2577. Remarks of Mr. Comstock on, 2575. " Cooke. on, 2666. Curtis on, 2582, 2584. " Daly on, 2578. " Ferry on, 2580, 2581. " Graves on, 2575. Hand on, 2585, 2586. M. H. Lawrence on, 2579 Magee on, 2588. " Miller on, 3726, 3727. Murphy on, 2666. " Rathbun on, 2587. l" Smith on, 2584, 2589. " M. I. Townsend on, 2582. Young on, 2579, 2580. Resolution of instruction to committee on revision to amend article on judiciary in reference to, 3707, 3732. TERMS OF COURTS TO BE DETERMINED BY LAW, Remarks of Mr. Comstock on, 2547. ccxxxiv INDEX. TERM OF OFFICE OF JUDGES OF COURT OF CLAIMS, Resolution of instruction to committee on revision to amend article on Secretary of State, Comptroller, etc., in reference to, 3652. TERM OF OFFICE OF SENATORS, Resolutior of instruction to committee on revision to amend article on organization of Legislature, in reference to, 936, 3587, 3588. TERM OF OFFICE OF SENATORS AND ASSEMBLYMEN, Resolution in reference to, 126. TERM OF OFFICE OF SUPERINTENDENT OF PUBLIC WORKS, Resolution of instruction to committee on revision to amend article on Secretary of State, Comptroller, etc., in reference to, 3652. TESTIMONY, ETC., Resolution authorizing committee of official corruption to take, 640, 643. Resolution in reference to right to give, 195. TESTIMONY OF ACCUSED PERSONS, Resolution in reference to, 135, 140. TILDEN, SAMUEL J., A delegate from the seventh senatorial district, 121, 405,1738, 1742, 1962, 3514. Appointed member of committee on finances of State, etc., 95. Appointed member of committee on revision, 565. Appointed member of committee on suppressing official corruption, 176. Oath of office taken by, 18. Remarks of, in reference to adjournment,. 1960. Remarks of, in reference to publication of debates, 114. Remarks of, on consideration of report of committee on rules, 48, 54, 55, 63. Remarks of, on report of committee appointed to report manner of revision of Constitution, 88. Remarks of, on report of committees on finances and canals, 1630, 1632, 1634, 1637, 1641, 1717, 1728, 1734, 1740, 1741, 1743, 1744, 1764, 1793, 1848, 1849, 1852, 1877, 1926, 1927, 1984. Remarks of, on report of committee on Governor, Lieut.-Governor, etc., 1129. Remarks of, on report of committee on Secretary of State, Comptroller, etc., 1246, 1247. Remarks of, on resolution in reference to drawing of seats, 25. Remarks of, on resolution of inquiry in reference to canals, 22. Remarks of, onTresolution to appoint committee to report mode of submission of amendments to Constitution, 404. Remarks of, on resolution to close debate on report of committee on suffrage, 356. Voted for for President, 19. TITLE TO REAL ESTATE, Resolution of instruction to committee on revision to amend article on preamble and bill of rights, in reference to alienism affecting, 3555. TOLLS ON CANALS, Resolution in reference to, 2568. Resolution in reference to reducing, 1530. TOLLS ON RAILROADS, Resolution in reference to, 175. TOWN AID TO CORPORATIONS, Remarks of Mr. Alvord on, 1137. " Axtell on, 1146. t" Baker on, 1164, 1165, 1166, 1168. Remarks of Mr. Bell on, 1137, 1154,1155. 4" Bickford on, 1156, 1158. i E. Brooks on, 1160, 1162. 9" Comstock on, 3675, 3857. Cooke on, 1144. Eddy on, 1138. Ferry on, 1160. - " Fullerton on, 1158. Hale on, 1140, 3665. " Hardenburgh on, 1142, 1143, 1144, 1162, 1163, 3664, 3854. Remarks of Mr. Krum on, 1141. It Landon on, 1150, 1151. " Lee on, 1139. It Ludington on, 1148. "t McDonald on, 3854. " Prindle on, 1145. " Rathbun on, 1151, 1152, 1153, 1154, 3851, 3853. Remarks of Mr. Rumsey on, 1137, 1167, 3664. Remarks of Mr. Seymour on, 1138. Smith on, 1146, 1147. S" Strong on, 1158. INDEX. CCXxxV Remarks of Mr. M. I. Townsend on, 3852. Remarks of Mr. S. Townsend on, 1150. Van Campen on, 1148. TowN AND COUNTY OFFICERS, Amendment of Mr. Andrews in reference to, 923. Amendment of Mr. Ballard in reference to, 1004. Amendment of Mr. Barker in reference to, 903. Amendment of Mr. Bickford in reference to, 1005. Amendment of Mr. Cooke in reference to, 925. Amendment of Mr. Gould in reference to, 1001, 1002. Amendment of Mr. Greeley m Tefernce to, 898. Amendment of Mr. Hadley in reference to, 3653. Amendment of Mr. Hale in reference to, 1004. Amendment of Mr. Hand in reference to, 1002. Amendment of Mr. Larremore in reference to, 1004. Amendment of Mr. Pond in reference to, 924. Amendment of Mr. Schumreker in refer. ence to, 926. Amendment of Mr. Seaver in reference to, 1000. Amendment of Mr. Spencer in reference to, 3653. Amendment of Mr. Voeder in reference to, 903, 917, 999. Debate on report of committee on, 898 to 922, 922 to 932, 936 to 958, 959 to 977, 978 to 998, 999 to 1009. Debate on report of committee on revision on article on, 3653 to 3665, 3674 to 3677. Final report of committee on revision on article on, 3690. Remarks of Mr. A. F. Allen on, 981. " Alvord on, 954, 965, 996, 999, 1002. Remarks of Mr. Andrews on, 923, 953. t" Baker on, 904. " Ballard on, 995. Barker on, 904, 928, 959, 960, 961, 993. Remarks of Mr. Barnard on, 958, 959, 1000. Remarks of Mr. Beckwith on, 977, 985. C" Bergen on, 929, 962, 981, 990, 997, 1000. Remarks of Mr. Bickford on, 901, 926, 1005. Remarks of Mr. E. Brooks on, 936, 944, 953, 985. Remarks of Mr. E. A. Brown on, 957, 961, 1002. Remarks of Mr. Burrell on, 1006. " Church on, 983, 997. " Clinton on, 969, 981. Conger on, 901, 927, 962, 970, 975, 1001. Remarks of Mr. Cooke on, 924, 976, 993. " Corbett on, 931, 932, 937. Daly on, 947, 965, 967. ". C. Dwight on, 973. T. W. Dwight on, 979. Duganne on, 956, 969, 989. Eddy on, 944. Evarts on, 943, 980, 982 -Folger on, 938, 950, 1001, 1006. Remarks of Mr. Garvin on, 966, 1135. (" Gerry on, 912, 922, 948, 1003. Remarks of Mr. Gould on, 905, 917, 918, 919, 1001, 1003. Remarks of Mr. Grant on, 944, 962. Graves on, 986. Greeley on, 8C8, 900, 906, 917, 939, 943, 960, 979, 993, 994, 1136 -Remarks of Mr. Hadley on, 955, 961, 983 1134, 3653. Remarks of Mr. Hale on, 905, 930, 936, 990. Remarks of Mr. Hand on, 946, 988. Hardenburgh on, 997. Harris on, 964, 984. " Hitchman on, 929, 930. " Hutchins on, 919, 920, 947, 948, 949, 950. Remarks of Mr. Kernan on, 945, 972, 980, 982, 984. Remarks of Mr. Krum on, 962. " Lapham on, 976, 985. Larremore on, 905, 1001.." A. Lawrence on, 942, 946. I" Loew on, 927. Lowrey on, 984. ccxxxvi INDEX. TowN AND COUNTY OFFICERS- Continued Remarks of Mr. McDonald on, 940, 941, 965, 973, 988. Remarks of Mr. Masten on, 926, 929, 976. " Opdyke on, 900, 943, 952, 1136. Remarks of Mr. Paige on, 926, 928. " A. J, Parker on, 954. Pond on, 924, 980, 996. Rathbun on, 925, 939, 951, 956, 982, 987. Remarks of Mr. Reynolds on, 902. Robertson on, 951. " Rumsey on, 931, 995. " Schumaker on, 907, 908, 926. Remarks of Mr. Seaver on, 976, 995. t" Seymour on, 982, 995. t" Sherman on, 1008. " Silvester on, 909. t" Smith on, 898, 902, 923, 931, 967, 968, 984, 994. Remarks of Mr. Spencer on, 971. 9" M. I. Townsend on, 914, 915, 955. Remarks of Mr. S. Townsend, 941, 988, 989, 994. Remarks of Mr. Van Cott on, 974, 984, 992, 1000. Remarks of Mr. Veeder on, 903, 917, 999, 1000, 1006. Remarks of Mr. Verplanck on, 986. t( Wakeman on, 901. " 'Wickham on, 903, 963. Remarks on report of committee on, in reference to extra copies of report from committee on printing, 816. Report from committee on, 755. Report from committee on, in reference to extra copies of report from committee on printing, 816. Resolution instructing committee on revision to amend article on, 1134, 1180, 1181. Resolution of instruction to committee on revision to amend article on, in reference to appointment of officers, 3662. Resolution of instruction to committee on revision to amend article on, in reference to bonding of towns, 3676. Resolution of instruction to committee on.revision to amend article on, in reference to city officers, 3663. Resolution of instruction to committee on revision to amend article on, in reference to members of common councils, 3663. Resolution of instruction to committee on revision to amend article on, in reference to registers of deeds, 1181. Resolution of instruction to committee on revision to amend article on, in reference to registers of wills, 3653. Resolution of instruction to committee on revision to amend article on, in reference to sheriffs, 3653. Resolution of instruction to committee on revision to amend article on, in reference to supervisors, 3654, 3655, 3658, 3659, 3660, 3661. Resolution of instruction to committee on revision to amend article on, in reference to town, county and village aid to corporations, 3676. Resolution to amend article on, 3653, 3654, 3655, 3658, 3659, 3660, 3661, 3662, 3663, 3616, 36771. Resolution to print extra copies of report of committee on, 758. ToWN AND COUNTY OFFICERS WHOSE ELECTION IS NOT PROVIDED FOR BY CONSTITUTION, Amendment of Mr. Barker in reference to, 928. Amendment of Mr. Gould in reference to, 928. Amendment of Mr. Hitchman in reference to, 929, 1007. Amendment of Mr. Loew in reference to, 927. Amendment of Mr. McDonald in reference to, 3662. Amendment of Mr. Veeder in reference to, 1005. Remarks of Mr. Burrill on, 1006. " Folger on, 1006. I" McDonald on, 3662. "1 Veeder on, 1006. TOWN, COUNTY AND VILLAGE AID TO CORPORATIONS, Resolution of instruction to committee on revision to amend article on town and county officers in reference to, 3663, 3616. TOWN MEETINGS, Resolution in reference to, 143. TOWNS, Petition in reference to bonding, 1416. INDEX. ccxxxvii Resolution in reference to prohibiting the bonding of, 121, 137. Resolution of instruction to committee on revision to amend article on town and county officers in reference to bonding of, 3676. TOWNSEND, MARTIN I., A delegate at large, 30, 170, 245, 396, 405, 573, 619, 753, 818, 935, 2007, 2080, 2110, 2121, 2404, 2526, 2540, 2546, 2657, 2804, 2808, 2833, 3001, 3002, 3163, 3308, 3366, 3418, 3814. 3823, 3828. Appointed member of committee on pardoning power, 96. Appointed member of committee on suppressing official corruption, 176. Minority report from committee on official corruption, submitted by, 2280. Oath of office taken by, 18. Petition from colored citizens, praying for right of suffrage, presented by, 96. Petition in reference to prohibiting donations to sectarian institutions, presented by, 625. Remarks of, in reference to adjournment, 164, 1915. Remarks of, in reference to final adjournment of Convention, 3415. Remarks of, in reference to amending journal, 2490, 2492. Remarks of, in reference to death of Hon. David L. Seymour, 1970. Remarks of, in reference to publication of debates, 110. Remarks of, in reference to session of Convention, 2099. Remarks of, on amendments to report of committee on suffrage, 524. Remarks of, on consideration of report of committee on rules, 52, 53, 70, 71. Remarks of, on employment of clerks to committees, 152. Remarks of, on finances of State and canals, 2270, 2326, 2327. Remarks of, on manner of submission of Constitution, 3923. Remarks of, on motion to reconsider vote adopting article on preamble and bill of rights, 3323, 3326. Remarks of, on report of committee appointed to report manner'of revision of Constitution, 87. Remarks of, on report of committee on amendments to, and submission of Constitution, 3882, 3901. Remarks of, on report of committee on canals, 2032. Remarks of, on report of committee on charities, etc., 2730, 2749. Remarks of, on report of committee on cities, 2949, 2950, 2953, 2954, 2958, 2984, 2985, 2986, 2987, 2988, 3008, 3024, 3025, 3132, 3158, 3159. Remarks of, on report of committee on contingent expenses in reference to publishing debates, 3872, 3873. Remarks of, on report of committee on education, 2816, 2830, 2831, 2848, 2850, 2851, 2852, 2894, 2901. Remarks bf, on reports of committees on finances and on canals, 1832, 1833, 1879, 1880, 1944, 1984, 1997, 2006, 2007. Remarks of, on report of committee on future amendments and revision of Constitution, 2807. Remarks of, on report of committee on Governor, Lieut.-Governor, etc., 892. Remarks of, on report of committee on judiciary, 2207, 2217, 2222,. 2226, 2227, 2287, 2293, 2294, 2299, 2380, 2381, 2382, 2396, 2398, 2448, 2452, 2453, 2455, 2505,. 2538, 2542, 2582. Remarks of. on report of committee on official corruption, 2279, 3300, 3302, 3312, 3333, 3334, 3335. Remarks of, on report of committee on organization of Legislature, etc., 661. 826, 858. Remarks of, on report of committee on pardoning power, 1200, 1207, 1209. Remarks of, on report of committee on powers and duties of Legislature, 1384, 1385, 2107, 2108, 2110, 2113, 2120, 2121, 2126, 2152, 2758, 2764, 2771, 2772, 2780: 2781, 2784, 2789, 2800, 2802. Remarks of, on report of committee on preamble and bill of rights, 3242, 3246, 3251, 3259. Remarks of, on report of committee on revision on article on finance, 3762, 3834. Remarks of, on report of committee on right of suffrage, 206, 211, 237, 238, 240. ccxxxviii INDEX. TOWNSEND, MARTIN I.- Continued. Remarks of, on report of committee on sale of intoxicating liquors, 3294. Remarks of, on report of committee on salt springs of State, 3425, 3426. Remarks of, on report of committee on Secretary of State, Comptroller, etc., 1239, 1245. Remarks of, on report of committee on suffrage, 419, 421, 583, 591. Remarks of, on report of committee on town and county officers, etc, 914, 915, 955. Remarks of, on resolution in reference to action on report of committee on suffrage, 451. Remarks of, on resolution in reference to death of Hon. L. H. Hiscock, 28. Remarks of, on resolution in reference to drawing seats, 24. Remarks of, on resolution in reference to mode of drawing for seats, 2691. Remarks of, on resolution in reference to obtaining hall for Convention, 2686, 2687. Remarks of, on resolution in reference to order of business of Convention, 818. Remarks of, on resolution in reference to suppression of bribery and corruption, 2568. Remarks of, on resolution of thanks to President, 3865. Remarks of, on resolution to appoint committee to report mode of submission of amendments to Constitution, 408. Remarks of, on resolution to instruct corn mittee on revision to amend article on judiciary, 3005. Remarks of, on resolution to return communication of commissioners of canal fund, 166, 170. Report from committee on pardoning power, submitted by, 933. Request to be excused from serving on committee on rules, 30. Resolution in reference to adjournment, 2098. Resolution in reference to suppression of bribery and corruption, 2529, 2568. Resolution of inquiry to State Auditor in reference to canals, 166. Resolution to amend Constitution in reference to accused persons, 140. I Resolution to return communication of commissioners of canal fund, 166. TOWNSEND, SOLOMON, A delegate from the first senatorial dis. trict, 169, 218, 411, 641, 840,1053,1136, 2074, 2100, 2272, 2338, 2410, 2609, 2639, 2670, 2690, 2706, 2804, 2813, 3163, 3233, 3257, 3320, 3355, 3449, 3453, 3481, 3786. Appointed member of committee in refer. ence to meeting of Convention in Troy, 2660. Appointed member of committee on corporations other than municipal, etc., 96. Appointed member of committee on relations of State to Indians, 96. Oath of office taken by, 18. Petition in reference to assessments, presented by, 1132. Petition in reference to legislative corruption, presented by, 848. Remarks of, in reference to final adjournment of Convention, 3413. Remarks of, on amendments to report of committee on suffrage, 488. Remarks of, on consideration of report of committee on rules, 50. Remarks of, on finances of State and canals, 2233, 2243, 2269, 2303, 2304, 2340. Remarks of, on joint report of committee on currency, banking, etc., and corporations other than municipal, 1034, 1055, 1083, 1085. Remarks on report of committee appointed to report manner of revision of Constitution, 83, 84. Remarks of, on report of committee on canals, 2037, 2041, 2093. Remarks of, on report of committee on charities, etc., 2725. Remarks of, on report of committee on cities, 3162. Remarks of, on report of committee on counties, towns, etc., 1150. Remarks of, on report of committee on education, 2839, 2840, 2851, 2852, 2924. Remarks of, on report of committee onI Governor, Lieut.-Governor, etc., 888 894. Remarks of, on report of committee on judiciary, 2437, 2549, 2600, 2606, 2631, 2639, 2663, 2704. INDEX. ccxxxix Remarks of, on report of committee on official corruption, 3315, 3316, 3348, 3352. Remarks of, on report of committee on organization of Legislature, etc., 709, '59, 840, 867. Remarks of, on report of committee on powers and duties of Legislature, 1370, 2099, 2100, 2101, 2104, 2152, 2788, 2800, 2803. Remarks of, on report of committee on preamble and bill of rights, 3262, 3263, 3264. Remarks of, on report of committee on relations of State to Indian tribes, 3436. Remarks of, on report of committee on revision on article on future amendments to Constitution, 3827. Remarks of, on report of committee on revision on article on Governor, Lieut.Governor, etc., 3616. Remarks of, on report of committee on revision on article on judiciary, 3738. Remarks of, on report of committee on revision on article on organization of Legislature, etc., 3592, 3682. Remarks of, on report of committee on revision on article on preamble and bill of rights, 3557. Remarks of, on report of committee on revision on article on State prisons, 3822. Remarks of, on report of committee on revision on article on suffrage, 3585. Remarks of, on report of committee on sale of intoxicating liquors, 3290. Remarks of, on report of committee on salt springs of State, 3423, 3424. Remarks of, on report of committee on State prisons, etc., 3232. Remarks of, on report of committee on suffrage, 530, 603. Remarks of, on report of committee on town and county officers, etc., 941, 988, 994. Remarks of, on reports of committees on finances and on canals, 1824,1839,1840, 1899, 1980, 1988. Remarks of, on resolution advising Attorney-General to ascertain and revoke fraudulent contracts, 2073. Remarks of, on resolution in reference to appointment of committee to report whether the Convention is constitutionally called, 32. Remarks of, on resolution in reference to obtaining hall for Convention, 2444. Remarks of, on resolution instructing committee on revision to amend article on future amendments, etc., of Constitution, 3019. Remarks of, on taxation, 3500. Resolution in reference to contracts, 185. Resolution in reference to election of members of assembly and Senate, etc., 100, 284. Resolution in reference to establishment of corporations, etc., 138. Resolution in reference to furnishing school libraries with laws of State, etc., 1417. Resolution in reference to pensions, 896. Resolution in reference to policy of constitutional provision for collecting tolls and taxes due State in specie, 38. Resolution in reference to separate submission of article upon suffrage, 2059. Resolution in reference to taxation, 124. Resolution in reference to the measure of capacity based upon weight, 173. Resolution in reference to trial byjury, 411. Resolution in reference to veto power, 218. Resolution of inquiry to Comptroller in reference to real estate, etc., 1013, 1033. Resolution of instruction to committee on revision to amend article on counties, towns, etc., in reference to county, town and village aid to corporations, 1179. Resolution of instruction to committee on revision to amend article on future amendments to Constitution in reference to future Constitutional Conventions, 3827. Resolution of instruction to committee on revision to amend article on judiciary in reference to court of appeals, 3738. Resolution of instruction to committee on revision to amend article on organization of Legislature, etc., in reference to census enumeration, 3609, 3682. Resolution of instruc';ion to committee on revision to amend article on preamble and bill of rights in reference to taxation, 3066, 3557. INDEX. TOWNSEND, SOLOMON Continued. Resolution of instruction to committee on revision to amend article on Secretary of State, Comptroller, etc., in reference to superintendent of public works, 3634. Resolution of instruction to committee on revision to amend article on suffrage in reference to penalty for omission to vote, 3585. Resolution of instruction to committee on revision to amend article on town and county officers, etc., in reference to town, county and village aid to corporations, 3676. Resolution to appoint committee to report whether Convention is constitutionally called, 30, 1363. Resolution to reconsider resolution to accept proposition of Commercial National Bank of Albany in reference to compensation of delegates, etc., 2170. TRAIN,.GEORGE FRANCIS, Communication from, 2317. TREASON, Resolution of instruction to committee on revision to amend article on Governor, Lieut.-Governor, etc., in reference to, 3618. TREASURER, Amendment of Mr. E. Brooks in reference to, 1285. Amendment of Mr. Ludington in reference to, 3652. Amendment of Mr. Rumsey in reference to, 1287, Remarks of Mr. Conger on, 3631. t" Fuller on, 1287. t" Rumsey on, 1287. Resolution of instruction to committee on revision to amend article on Secretary of State, Comptroller, etc., in reference to, 3652. TREASURY, MANNER OF DRAWING MONEYS FROM, Remarks of Mr. Alvord on, 2261. t" Church on, 1990, 2260. " Schoonmaker on, 2259, 2260. TRIAL BY JURY, Remarks of Mr. Conger on, 3532. I" Merwin on, 3239. TRIAL BY JURY OF ISSUES IN SURROGATES' COURTS, Resolution of instruction to committee on revision to amend article on judiciary in reference to, 3724. TRIAL OF CRIMINALS, Remarks of Mr. C. L. Allen on, 3543. " T. W. Dwight on, 3543. i" Hale on, 3542. c" Lapham on, 3543. t" Wakeman on, 3542. TRIBUNALS OF CONCILIATION, ESTABLISHMENT OF, Remarks of Mr. E. Brooks on, 2705, 2706. " Daly on, 2705, 2706. " Folger on, 2705. <" S. Townsend on, 2704. TROY, Communication from mayor of, 2655. TUCKER, GIDEON J., A delegate from the sixth senatorial district. Appointed member of committee on Secretary of State, etc., 95. Oath of office taken by, 18. Petition against negro suffrage, presented by, 486. Petition in reference to female suffrage, presented by, 214. Petition in reference to right of suffrage, presented by, 171. Report from committee on Secretary of State, etc., submitted by, 1009. Resolution providing stationery for reporters, 175. Voted for for President, 19. UNCONSTITUTIONAL LAWS, Remarks of Mr. Comstock on, 3356, 3360. "( Lapham on, 3364. Resolution of instruction to committee on revision to amend article on judiciary, in reference to, 3065. UNDERHILL, EDWARD F., Appointed stenographer, 20. Oath of office administered to, 22. UNDERWOOD, CORNELIUS S., Appointed journal secretary, 29. Oath of office taken by, 33. UNITED STATES, Resolution in reference to refunding moneys expended by States in putting down rebellion in, 672. UNIVERSITY, Communication from secretary of board of regents of, 2478. INDEX. ccxli Communication in reference to report of regents of, 2654. Petition against abolishing office of regents of, 1416, 1529, 1624, 1679, 1723, 1771, 1778, 1779, 1827, 1912, 1955, 1969, 2019, 2058, 2073, 2135, 2216, 2281, 2356, 2392, 2443, 2478, 2568. Petition in favor of abolishing office of regents of, 1193, 1229, 1306, 1361, 1362, 1416, 1507, 1624, 1679, 1375, 1460, 1977, 2058, 2228, 2279, 2281, 2356, 2392, 2478, 2612, 2710. USE OF CANALS BY GOVERNMENT, Resolution of instruction to committee on preamble and bill of rights, to amend article in reference to, 1175. USURY, Petition in reference to, 625. VACANCIES IN COURT OF APPEALS, Resolution of instruction to committee on revision to amend article on judiciary, in reference to, 3' 27. VACANCIES IN COURT OF APPEALS AND SUPREME COURT, Remiarks of Mr. C. L. Allen on, 2450. Al Alvord on, 2708. "t Comstock on, 2451. "I Cooke on, 2452. C. C. Dwight on, 3727. Hadley on, 2708. Hale on, 2450, 2451, 2708. VACANCIES IN OFFICE, Amendment of Mr. Greeley in reference to, 1364. Amendment of Mr. Lapham in reference to, 2777. Amendment of Mr. Seaver in reference to, 1365. *Amendment of Mr. Spencer in reference to, 1365. Remarks of Mr. Beckwith on, 1363, 1364. Bickford on, 1364. " Greeley on, 1363, 1364. " Rathbun on, 1364. Spencer on, 1365. VACANCIES IN OFFICE OF JUDGES OF COURT OF APPEALS AND SUPREME COURT, Amendment of Mr. Bickford in reference to, 2451, 2544, 2651. Amendment of Mr. Comstock in reference to, 2451, 2544, 2652. 31 Amendment of Mr. 0. C. Dwight in reference to, 3727. Amendment of Mr. Hadley in reference to, 3734. VACANCIES IN SUPREME COURT, Resolution of instruction to committee on revision to amend article on judiciary, in reference to, 3734. VAN CAMPEN, GEORGE, A delegate from the thirty-second senatorial district, 573, 719, 728, 2136, 2203, 2354, 3081, 3174, 3237, 3253, 3436, 3590, 3591, 3661. Appointed member of committee on relations of State to Indians, 96. Oath of office taken by, 18. Petition in reference to female suffrage, presented by, 196. Petition in reference to prohibiting donations to sectarian institutions, presented by, 701. Petition in reference to prohibiting sale of intoxicating liquors, 641. Remarks of, on amendments to report of committee on suffrage, 461. Remarks of, on employrflent of clerks to committee, 151. Remarks of, on joint report of committee on currency, banking, etc., and corporations other than municipal, 1073, 1103. Remarks of, on motion for call of Convention, 719. Remarks of. on report of committee on Attorney-General, etc., 1285: Remarks of, on report of committee on contingent expenses in reference to publishing debates, 3872. Remarks of, on report of committee on counties, towns, etc., 1148. Remarks of, on report of committee on education, 2885. Remarks of, on report of committee on finances and canals, 1747, 2253, 2353. Remarks of, on report of committee on Governor and Lieut.-Governor, etc., 1121. Remarks of, on report of committee on organization of Legislature, etc., 820, 821, 861. Remarks of, on report of committee on powers and duties of Legislature, 1356, 1370, 2119, 2789. aexlii ~ INDEX. VAN CAMPEN, GEORGE — Continued. Remarks of, on report of committee on relations of State to Indian tribes, 3439, 3441, 3442, 3445, 3446. Remarks of, on report of committee on revision on article on organization of Legislature, etc., 3608. Remarks of, on report of committee on right of suffrage, 533, 605. Remarks of, on report of committee on Secretary of State, Comptroller, etc., 1240. Report on relations of State to Indians, submitted by, 2881. Resolution in reference to adjournment, 145, 163, 2567, 3003. Resolution in reference to establishing bureau of statistics, etc., 184. Resolution in reference to extending right of suffrage to Indians, 137. Resolution of inquiry to State Engineer in reference to railroad freights, 144, 170. Resolution of instruction to committee on revision to amend article on corporations in reference to consolidation of railroad companies, 2660. Resolutiop of instruction to committee on revision to amend article on powers and duties of Legislature in reference to street railroads, 3608. Resolution of instruction to committee on revision to amend article on suffrage in reference to right of students to vote, 2815. Resolution requesting Comptroller to furnish diagrams, 641. Resolution to appoint committee on Indian tribes, 38. VAN CoTr, JOSHUA M., A delegate at large, 993, 1131, 1962, 2336, 2646, 2647, 2767, 2771, 2917, 3644, 3687, 3814, 3925. Appointed member of committee on finances of State, etc., 95. Appointed member of committee on judiciary, 95. Appointed member of committee on revision, 2376. Oath of office taken by, 18. Petition against abolishing metropolitan board of health, presented by, 2925. Petition in reference to prohibiting of donations to sectarian institutions, 214, 625, 701. I Remarks of, in reference to adjournment, 1961, 1962. Remarks of, in reference to final adjourn. ment of Convention, 3413. Remarks of, on finances of State and canals, 2331. Remarks of, on motion for call of Conven. tion, 719. Remarks of, on report of committee ap. pointed to report manner of revision of Constitution, 85. Remarks of, on report of committee on amendments to and submission of Constitution, 3884. Remarks of, on report of committee on Attorney-General, etc., 1283. Remarks of, on report of committee on Governor, Lieut.-Governor, etc., 891, 1128. Remarks of, on report of committee on judiciary, 2187, 2203, 2206, 2295, 2296, 2627. Remarks of, on report of committee on organization of Legislature, etc., 773. Remarks of, on report of committee on powers and duties of Legislature, 2764. Remarks of, on report of committee on preamble and bill of rights, 3241. Remarks of, on report of committee on revision on article on finance, 3833. Remarks of, on report of committee on revision on article on future amendments to Constitution, 3826. Remarks of, on report of committee on revision on article on judiciary, 3714. Remarks of, on report of committee on revision on article on organization of Legislature, etc., 3681. Remarks of, on report of committee on revision on article on town and-county officers, 3657. Remarks of, on report of committee on Secretary of State, Comptroller, etc., 1243, 1244. Remarks of, on report of committee on town and county officers, etc., 974, 992. Remarks of, on resolution of thanks to President, 3864. Resolution of instruction to committee on revision to amend article on judiciary, in reference to appointment of judiciary by the people, 3722. ccxliii INDEX. Resolution of instruction to committee on revision to amend article on organization of Legislature, in reference to Assembly districts, 3682. Resolution of instruction to committee on revision to amend article on Secretary of State, Comptroller, etc., in reference to statutes of limitation, 3647. VAN VALKENBURG, CHRISTOPHER, Appointed messenger, 29. VEEDER, WILLIAM D., A delegate from the third senatorial district, 45, 49, 348, 574, 595, 596, 597, 601, 628, 2116, 2121, 2126, 2130, 2131, 2135, 2151, 2159, 2161, 2796, 2798, 3521, 3527, 3528, 3529, 3533, 3534, 3536, 3566, 3576. Appointed member of committee on currency, banking, etc., 96. Oath of office taken by, 18. Petition in reference to regulation of sale of intoxicating liquors, presented by, 932. Remarks of, on joint report of committee on currency, banking, etc., and corporations other than municipal, 1021, 1079. Remarks of, on report of committee on cities, 3158. Remarks of, on report of committee on powers and duties of Legislature, 2107, 2110, 2120, 2129, 2133, 2142, 2143, 2144, 2783, 2791, 2794. Remarks of, on report ofcommittee on revision on article on judiciary, 3728, 3733. Remarks of, on report of committee on revision on article on preamble and bill of rights, 3539. Remarks of, on report of committee on revision on article on suffrage, 3574. Remarks of, on report of committee on suffrage, 536, 602, 622. Remarks of, on report of committee on town and county officers, etc., 903, 917, 999, 1000, 1005, 1006. Remarks of, on resolution in reference to obtaining hall for Convention, 2489. Remarks of, on rule in reference to previous question, 633, 636. Resolution in reference to female suffrage, 134. Resolution in reference to jury trials, 184. Resolution of instruction to committee on revision to amend article on judiciary in reference to appointment of judicial officers, 3723, 3732. Resolution of instruction to committee on revision to amend article on preamble and bill of rights in reference to detention of witnesses, 3539. Resolution of instruction to committee on revision to amend article on suffrage in reference to uniformity of registry laws, 3574. Supplementary report from committee on currency, banking, etc., in reference to liability of stockholders, presented by, 671. VERDICTS AND PROHIBITION OF FEES, Resolution in reference to, 101, 252. VERPLANCK, ISAAC A., A delegate from the thirty-first senatorial district, 351, 353, 453, 562, 605, 1298, 1318, 1328, 1384, 1740, 1748, 1761, 1863, 1911, 1981, 2002, 2032, 2161, 2162, 2163, 2204, 2239, 2242, 2761, 2796, 2907, 3002, 3146, 3241, 3293, 3294, 3322, 3324, 3366, 3538, 3581, 3627, 3635, 3636, 3679, 3691, 3701, 3704, 3728, 3766, 3885, 3905, 3917 3919. Appointed member of committee on adulterated liquors, 142. Appointed member of committee on cities, etc., 95. Communication in reference to cruelty to animals, presented by, 486. Oath of office taken by, 18. Petition from Cattaraugus band of Six Nations, presented by, 1192. Petition in reference to prohibiting donations to sectarian institutions, presented by, 1416. Remarks of, in reference to postponement of consideration of report of finance committee, 1978. Remarks of, on motion to reconsider vote adopting article on preamble and bill of rights, 3325. Remarks of, on motion to refer reports of committees on finances and canals to same committee of the whole, 1211. Remarks of, on report of committee on amendments to, and submission of, Con. stltution, 3904. ccxiv INDEX. VERPLANCK, ISAAC A.-Continued. Remarks of, on report of committee on Attorney-General, etc., 1284. Remarks of, on report of committee on canals, 2019, 2024, 2025, 2029, 2030, 2085. Remarks of, on report of committee on cities, 3000, 3002, 3005, 3006, 3007, 3146, 3147. Remarks of, on report of committee on contingent expenses in reference to publishing debates, 3871. Remarks of, on report of committee on education, 2860, 2861, 2862, 2886. Remarks of, on report of committees on finances and canals, 1706, 1729, 1740, 1750, 1751, 1762, 1786, 1788, 1789, 1793, 1794, 1832, 1876, 1882, 1892, 1946, 2237, 2241. Remarks of, on report of committee on militia and military officers, 1216, 1217, 1223, 1226. Remarks of, on report.of committee 6n official corruption, 3338, 3343. Remarks of, on report of committee on pardoning power, 1198, 1203, 1206. Remarks of, on report of committee on powers and duties of Legislature, 1322, 1325, 1356, 1360, 2101. 2115i 2159, 2160, 2769, 2779, 2793. Remarks of, on report of committee on preamble and bill of rights, 3236, 3238, 3240, 3246, 3247, 3259. Remarks of, on report of committee on revision on article on finance, 3704. Remarks of, on report of committee on revision on article on judiciary, 3715. Remarks of, on report of committee on revision on article on militia of State, 3689. Remarks of, on report of committee on revision on article on organization of Legislature, etc., 3608, 3685. Remarks of) on report of committee on revision on article on suffrage, 3578. Remarks of, on report of committee on suffrage, 347, 348, 598. Remarks of, on report of committee on town and county officers, etc., 986. Remarks of, on resolution in reference to debate on reports of committees on finances and canals, 1514. 1566. Remarks of, on resolution of inquiry to Canal Commissioners in reference to breaks in the Erie canal, 701. Resolution in reference to debate on reports of committees on finances and canals, 1514. Resolution in reference to national guard of the State, 101. Resolution in reference to printing articles referred to committee on revision, 1179. Resolution in reference to referring articles to committee on revision, 1179. Resolution of inquiry to Canal Commissioners in reference to breaks in the Erie canal, 646, 701. Resolution of instruction to committee on revision to amend article on finance in reference to disposition of canal revenues, 3700, 3765. Resolution of instruction to committee on revision to amend article on militia of State in reference to national guard, 3686, 3689. Resolution of instruction to committee on revision to amend article on powers and duties of Legislature in reference to inspectors of election, 3602. Resolution of instruction to committee on revision to amend article on suffrage in reference to bribery at elections, 3583. Resolution of instruction to committee on revision to amend article on suffrage in reference to registry law, 3581. Resolution requesting Auditor of canals to report in reference to breaks in Erie canal, 219, 234. Voted for for President, 19. VETERANS OF 1812, Petition from, 171. VETO POWER, Resolution in reference to, 175, 218. Supplementary report from committee on Governor, Lieut.-Governor, etc., in reference to, 668. VILLAGE AID TO CORPORATIONS, Remarks of Mr. Alvord on, 1137. " Axtell on, 1146. i" Baker on, 1164, 1165, 1166, 1168. Remarks of Mr. Bell on, 1137, 1154, 1155. t" Bickford on, 1156, 1158. " ( E. Brooks on, 1160, 1162. " Comstock on, 3675, 3857. Cooke on, 1144. Eddy on, 1138. INDEX. Remarks of Mr. Ferry on, 1160. Fullerton on, 1158. Hale on, 1140, 3665. " Hardenburgh on, 1142, 1143, 1144, 1162, 1163, 3664, 3854. Remarks of Mr. Krum on, 1141. " Landon on, 1150, 1151. Lee on, 1139. " Ludington on, 1148. " McDonald on, 3854. " Prindle on, 1145. " Rathbun on, 1151, 1152, 1153, 1154, 3851, 3853. Remarks of Mr. Rumsey on, 1131, 1167, 3664. Remarks of Mr. Seymour on, 1138. C" Smith on, 1146, 1147. Strong on, 1158. M. I. Townsend on, 3852. S. Townsend on, 1150. " Van Campen on, 1148. VIRGINIA, Resolution in reference to sending copy of proceedings to State Convention of, 2019. VIVA VOCE VOTE, Resolution in reference to adopting, 978. VOTERS, Resolution of instruction to committee on revision to amend article on suffrage in reference to rights of, 2205. VOTING, CUMULATIVE, Resolution in reference to, 702. 'WAKEMAN, SETH, A delegate from the twenty-ninth senatorial district, 189, 415, 607, 750, 896, 3224, 3311. Appointed member of committee on Governor, Lieut.-Governor, etc., 95. Oath of office taken by, 18. Petition in favor of abolishing office of regents' of university, presented by, 1229. Petition in reference to prohibiting sale of intoxicating liquors, 790, 1348. Remarks of, on amendment to report of committee on suffrage, 526. Remarks of, on report of committee on amendments to and submission of Constitution, 3886. Remarks of, on report of committee on Attorney-General, etc., 1274. ccxlv Remarks of, on report of committee on canals, 2088. Remarks of, on report of committee on cities, 3153. Remarks of, on report of committee on education, 2856. Remarks of, on report of committees on finances and on canals, 1834, 1939, 2306, 2314, 2315, 2323. Remarks of, on report of committee on Governor and Lieut.-Governor, etc., 1113, 1122. Remarks of, on report of committee on judiciary, 2172, 2178, 2191, 2208, 23741 2425, 2435, 2537, 2604, 2682, 2697. Remarks of, on report of committee on official corruption, 3311, 3312, 3346. Remarks of, on report of committee on organization of Legislature', etc., 710. Remarks of, on report of committee on powers and duties of Legislature, 1299, 13341 2122) 2767, 2802. Remarks of, on report of committee on -Dreamble and bill of rights, 3244, 3245, 3246. Remarks of, on report of committee on relations of State to Indian tribes, 3444, 3445. Remarks of, on report of committee on revision on article on preamble and bill of rights, 3542. Remarks of, on report of committee on right of suffrage, 212, 213, 318 to 321. Remarks of, on report of committee on town and county officers, etc., 901. Remarks of, on report of joint committee on currency, banking, etc., and corporations other than municipal, 1038. Remonstrance againkt abolishing board of rezents, presented by, 1624, 1912. Resolution in reference to abolishment of grand jury, 193. Resolution in reference to last appeal to jury, 192. WALEs, GIDEON, A delegate from the tenth senatorial dis. trict, 2275, 3545, 3555. Appointed member of committee on industrial interests, etc., 96. Oath of office taken by, 18. Petitions in reference to reorganization of court of 0,voea:1% 196. Remarks of, on report of committee on judiciary, 2172, 2178, 2191, 2208, 2374, 2425, 2435, 2537, 2604, 2682, 2697. Remarks of, on report of committee on official corruption, 3311, 3312, 3346. Remarks of, on report of committee on organization of Legislature, etc., 710. Remarks of, on report of committee on powers and duties of Legislature, 1299, 1334, 2122, 2767, 2802. Remarks of, on report of committee on preamble and bill of rights, 3244, 3245, 3246. Remarks of, on report of committee on relations of State to Indian tribes, 3444, 3445. Remarks of, on report of committee on revision on article on preamble and bill of rights, 3542. Remarks of, on report of committee on right of suffrage, 212, 213, 318 to 321. Remarks of, on report of committee on town and county officers, etc., 901. Remarks of, on report of joint committee on currency, banking, etc., and corporations other than municipal, 1038. Remonstrance against abolishing board of regents, presented by, 1624, 1912. Resolution in reference to abolishment of grand jury, 193. Resolution in reference to last appeal to jury, 192. WALES, GIDEON, A delegate from the tenth senatorial district, 2275, 3545, 3555. Appointed member of committee on industrial interests, etc., 96. Oath of office taken by, 18. Petitions in reference to reorganization of court of appeals, 196. ce.iM INDEX. WAeIS, GtDloN-C-ontinued. Remarks of, on reports of committees on finances and on canals, 1830. Remarks of, on report of committee on powers and duties of Legislature, 1367, 1368, 2785. Remarks of, on report of committee on preamble and bill of rights, 3257. Remarks of, on report of committee on suffrage, 547. Report from committee on industrial interests, submitted by, 2424. Resolution in reference to salaries of members of Legislature, 416. Resolution in reference to sale of State canals, 2688. Resolution in reference to uniform system of suffrage, 279. Resolution of instruction to committee on revision to amend article on education in reference to investment of educational funds, 3005, 3065, 3799, 3814. Resolution of instruction to committee on revision to amend article on organization of Legislature in reference to salary of members of Legislature, 1362. Resolution of instruction to committee on revision to amend article on powers and duties of Legislature in reference to guaging or inspecting merchandise, etc., 3601. Resolution of instruction to committee on revision to amend article on suffrage in reference to rights of voters, 2205. ERs, CHARLES, Appointed messenger, 29. Resolution of instruction to committee on revision to amend article on suffrage in reference to gain or loss of residence in time of, 622. Remarks of, in reference to adjournment, 1957. Remarks of, in reference to publication of debates, 117. Remarks of, in reference to the death of Hon. L. H. Hiscock, 27. Remarks of, on amendments to report of committee on suffrage, 516. Remarks of, on consideration of report of committee on rules, 45, 54, 67. Remarks of, on motion for call of Convention, 741. Remarks of, on postponement of consideration of report of committee on powers and duties of Legislature, 1290. Remarks of, on report of committee on contingent expenses in reference to fur. nishing stationery to reporters, 630. Remarks of, on report of committees on finances and canals, 2005, 2010, 2014. Remarks of, on report of committee on militia and military officers, 1221. Remarks of, on report of committee on organization of Legislature, etc., 856. Remarks of, on report of committee on powers and duties of Legislature, 2106, 2111, 2114, 2115, 2124, 2132, 2150. Remarks of, on report of committee on preamble and bill of rights, 3241, 3242. Remarks of, on report of committee on right of suffrage, 323 to 330. Remarks of, on resolution in reference to death of Hon. L. H. Hiscock, 28. Remarks of, on resolution in reference to debate on reports of committees on finances and canals, 1515. Remarks of. on resolution in reference to drawing seats. 24. Remarks of, on resolution in reference to final adjournment of Convention, 673. Remarks of, on resolution in reference to order of business of Convention, 818. Remarks of, on resolution of inquiry to superintendent of public instruction in reference to common schools, 285. Remarks of, on resolution to close debate on report of committee on suffrage, 355. Remarks of, on rule in reference to previous question, 635, 636, 637. Resolution in reference to fees in surrogates' courts, 185. WHEZLER, WILLIAM A., A delegate at large. WALT] WAR, WEED, SMITH M., A delegate at large, 24, 49, 116, 123, 127, 181, 189, 190, 308, 395, 407, 630, 740, 748, 751, 1950, 2010, 2011, 2109, 2125, 2164, 2171, 2193, 3243, 3253. Appointed member of committee on cities, etc., 95. Appointed member of committee on revision, 565. Oath of office taken by, 18... INDEX. ccxlvii X-1..N V Oath of office taken by, 18. Elected President, 19. Address on taking the chair as President, 19. Address as President at close of Convention, 3950. WICKHAM, WILLIAM, A delegate from the first senatorial district, 590. Appointed member of committee on counties, towns, etc., 96. Oath of office taken by, 18. Petition in reference to prohibition of donations to sectarian institutions, 754. Remarks of, on report of committee on town and county officers, etc., 903, 963. WILLIAMS, GEORGE, A delegate from the nineteenth senatorial district. Appointed member of committee on contingent expenses, 96. Appointed member of committee on the right of suffrage, etc., 95. Oath of office taken by, 18. Petition in favor of abolishing board of regents of university, presented by, 2612. Petition in reference to jurisdiction of grand juries, presented by, 1098. Petition in reference to prohibition of donations to sectarian institutions,. presented by, 642. Petition in reference to regulating sale of intoxicating liquors, presented by, 1171. Remarks of, on motion for call of Convention, 747. Remarks of, on report of committee on amendments to and submission of Constitution, 3896. Remarks of, on report of committee on contingent expenses, in reference to publishing debates, 3871. Resolution in reference to debate on report of committee on organization of Legislature, etc., 850. Resolution in reference to sessions of Convention, 1134 WITNESSES, Resolution of inquiry in reference to detention of, 100. Resolution of instruction to committee on revision to amend article on preamble and bill of rights, in reference to detention of, 3539. WITNESSES, DETENTION OF, PROHIBITED, Remarks' of Mr. Bergen on, 3325. " Daly on; 3540. " Develin on, 3324. *" Hale on, 3540. " Ketcham on, 3323. (" Landon on, 3321, 3326, 3539. Remarks of Mr. Lapham on, 3540. " Merritt on, 3325. " Pond on, 3324. " Rumsey on, 3322. " M. I. Townsend on, 3323, 3326. Remarks of Mr. Veeder on, 3539. " Verplanck on, 3325. WOOD, EUGENE D., Appointed messenger, 29. YOUNG, SOLOMON G., A delegate from the fourteenth senatorial district, 748, 2546. Appointed member of committee on salt springs, 96. Oath of office taken by, 18. Petition in reference to usury, presented by, 625. Remarks of, on reports of committees on finances and canals, 1693. Remarks of, on report of committee on judiciary, 238a, 2534, 2536, 2539, 2552, 2558, 2579, 2580. Remarks of, on report of committee on organization of Legislature, etc., 688. Remarks of, on report of committee on powers and duties of Legislature, 1344. Remarks of, on report of committee on salt springs of State, 1416. Resolution of instruction to committee on revision to amend article on suffrage, in reference to proof of right to vote, 1911. . 4 THE UNIVERSITY OF MICHIGAN DATE DUE AUG 1 3 004 /UNIVERSITY OF MICHIGAN 3 05 37 535 K' NA iA