ilDING ANIJ JJRIVINC 
 
 '^ Horses 
 
 •mm BREEDING AND REARIHG 
 
 ,. WALTER GILBEY 
 
M/ 7 ^C-^-^ 4i~J 
 
 X, 
 
Riding and Driving 
 Horses 
 
 THEIR BREEDING AND REARING 
 
 BY 
 
 Mr. WALTER GILBEY 
 
 March 1885 
 
RIDING AND DRIVING HORSES 
 
 THEIR BREEDING AND REARING 
 
 Address of Mr. Walter Gilbey at the Farmers' Club, London, 
 2nd March, 1885, and discussion by 
 
 
 page 
 
 Lord Carrington ... 
 
 31 
 
 Mr. Edmund Tattersall 
 
 33 
 
 The Duke of Westminster, K.O. ... 
 
 35 & 39 
 
 Mr. Anthony Hamond 
 
 37 
 
 Col. KiNGSCOTE, C.B. 
 
 40 
 
 Mr. J. K. Fowler ... 
 
 42 
 
 Mr. F. Sherborne ... 
 
 44 
 
 Mr. Jacob Wilson ... 
 
 44 
 
 Major Dashwood ... ... 
 
 ••• 46 
 
 Mr. T. B. Woodward 
 
 47 
 
 Capt, Fife 
 
 48 
 
 Mr. Walter Gilbey (reply) 
 
 50 
 
( 5 ^ 
 
 RIDING AND DRIVING HORSES 
 
 THEIR BREEDING AND REARING 
 
 The Chair was taken by Mr. William Eve, the 
 President of the Farmers Club. There zvas a 
 large attendance of Members and Visitors present. 
 
 Mr. Walter Gilbey, of Elsenham Hall, Elsen- 
 ham, Essex, introduced the subject as follows; — 
 
 For many years the subjects dealt with in this Address 
 have interested me deeply. Twelve months ago I 
 made application to Mr, Druce, the Secretary of this 
 Club, to be allowed to call attention to them, but was 
 unfortunately too late, all arrangements for 1884 having 
 been then made. 
 
 Very many causes have been assigned for the 
 decline of horse-breeding. It will be noticed that I 
 accept one only, to wit, the failure in persevering to 
 raise animals of size, quality, and value. The prin- 
 cipal object which I have in view, therefore, is to make 
 our shortcomings in this respect more generally known, 
 and to offer suggestions for breeding superior horses, 
 as these latter will always command a ready sale at 
 prices remunerative to the breeder. 
 
 It is an admitted fact that the true-bred English 
 hunter, hack, carriage and draught horse cannot be 
 equalled in any other country. We may import from 
 foreign lands corn, meat, dairy-produce, vegetables, 
 
( 6 ) 
 
 eggs, and other luxuries of excellent quality, and to 
 an unlimited extent, but horses of a high class must 
 be raised at home. 
 
 At the present time there is a greater demand than 
 ever for animals carrying from 12 to 15 stone, which 
 will hunt or hack, and also prove suitable as match 
 horses for carriage purposes. Horses of this type 
 indeed, square-made, sizeable, with proper courage and 
 action, can scarcely be obtained. 
 
 In proof of this it is only necessary for a good 
 judge to visit the yards of our Metropolitan and 
 country dealers, and he will soon discover how hard and 
 costly a job it is to pick up a London brougham horse, 
 or a match pair from 15.2 to 16 hands in height, with 
 good feet and legs, stylish in carriage, and workably 
 sound. During the past few years, for such purposes 
 buyers have had to content themselves but too often 
 with foreign horses at extravagant prices. Hundreds 
 of pairs of these flashy, soft substitutes, are sold yearly 
 in London to purchasers, unconscious of their origin, 
 at from ;i^200 to ^500 the pair, an anomaly for which 
 it is unjust to blame the dealers when English bred 
 horses are not to be found in the country. As the 
 demand is thus beyond the supply, these enterprising 
 men have now their agents on the Continent always 
 ready to purchase the most " English " looking 
 animals they can find, and it is only when they have 
 been put to work that the soft, foreign " spot," is 
 detected. 
 
 To show to what an extent this foreign trade is 
 being carried on, it is only necessary to refer to the 
 annual returns of hor.ses imported into this country. 
 The following table of foreign imports speaks for 
 itself :--In the ten years between 1863 and 1872, 
 foreign horses were imported into these islands to the 
 extent of only 29,131 head; but in the corresponding 
 ten years, between 1873 and 1882, no less than 197,092 
 head were imported. How can this alarming increase 
 
( 7 ) 
 
 be accounted for ? Supposing these animals to be of 
 the value of ^35 each, we have a loss to this country 
 of ^5-850,600. 
 
 It was stated in the " Daily Telegraph" only as 
 recently as the 24th March last : — 
 
 " Seven years ago one of the greatest authorities upon the subject 
 of horseflesh that ever entered a stable concluded a letter with the 
 following inquiry: — 'What then has become of our boasted English 
 horse ? Those that I now see are for the most part tall, leggy 
 animals, without bone or action, and not fitted to make a hunter, or 
 a carriage horse, or a riding horse up to any weight.' " 
 
 Similar opinions to the above were expressed by 
 Lord Rosebery's Select Committee of the House of 
 Lords in 1873. That Committee sat seventeen times, 
 heard evidence from numerous witnesses, and finally 
 reported that " The deficiency of native-born English 
 horses is due, first, to the exportation of mares to 
 foreign countries; secondly, to the increased profits 
 on sheep and cattle, which, from being more rapidly 
 realised, are doubly attractive to the farmers as 
 compared with those obtained by the breeding of 
 horses ; and, thirdly, to the increased demand for 
 horses consequent upon a multiplication of population 
 and wealth." And yet, with all this, and as a proof 
 that there has been no lack of money offered as prizes 
 at the various shows in the United Kingdom for 
 thoroughbred stallions, hunters, hacks, and carriage 
 horses, I estimate that more than ^^5,000 yearly has 
 been given away in prizes to these classes during the 
 past twenty-five years. 
 
 The subject of our present supply of horses is one 
 also that has met with ample consideration at the 
 hands of most competent authorities. In the 19th 
 vol. of the " Royal Agricultural Society's Journal," 
 Earl Cathcart remarks that, failing other writers, he 
 was inspired to undertake, from an agricultural point 
 of view, the difificult task of compiling some opinions 
 on what he is pleased to call the " too long neglected 
 
( 8 ) 
 
 subject of half-bred horses for field or road, their 
 breeding and management." 
 
 His Lordship's able article occupies fifty-five pages, 
 and, with a view of showing the importance he attaches 
 to the subject, he remarks, " The horse is one of God's 
 precious gifts to the nation, for our comfort and pleasure 
 in peace, for our credit and advantage in commerce, 
 and may be for our safeguard in war." 
 
 He supports his statements by the opinions of 
 several practical breeders, and gives also the names, 
 extending back over twenty years, of persons asking 
 for information on various points connected with his 
 subject. 
 
 In addition, he quotes from the reports of Stewards 
 and Judges of the Royal Agricultural Society, 
 complaining of the Hunters and Carriage Horses 
 exhibited at the different Shows for a period of twenty 
 years, from 1863 to 1883. Thus we find that in 1868, 
 at Leicester, in a fox-hunting country, " Stallions were 
 a moderate lot, the Hunters being especially dis- 
 appointing." At Manchester, in 1869, " the Thorough- 
 bred Horses were bad." At Oxford, in 1870, we were 
 told that " Inferiority generally prevails." At Hull, 
 in 1873, "The Show was not grand for Yorkshire." 
 At Taunton, in 1875, Lord Cathcart says, "In Somerset- 
 shire the Thoroughbred Horse is almost as unknown 
 as the Dodo." 
 
 The Report for the Show at Kilburn, in 1879, 
 written by the Hon. Francis Lawley, states that no less 
 a sum than ^1,060 was offered in classes for Riding 
 and Driving Horses, and adds that the Thoroughbreds, 
 however, were far from good. 
 
 At Derby, in 1881, ;^ 1,000 also was offered in 
 prizes, but the verdict was that " Thoroughbreds, never 
 strong at the Royal Shows, were there a very bad lot, 
 the stallions for getting hunters being few in number 
 and inferior in quality ." 
 
 The foregoing remarks seem clearly to indicate a 
 
( 9 ) 
 
 general falling off in high-class horses, and the anxiety 
 felt in many quarters to ascertain the causes. 
 
 In the case of half-bred horses it is to my mind 
 easy to explain why these have been bred in less 
 numbers of late years than formerly. There may 
 perhaps be other causes besides those which I shall 
 assign, but the most important one it seems to me 
 is that we have failed to follow up the system adopted 
 by our forefathers. We have, I fear, been taken off 
 the true and direct line by reason of the often ex- 
 pressed belief " that our best mares have left the 
 country." I think, however, I shall be able to prove 
 that there is no foundation for such constantly repeated, 
 and, as I believe, baseless assertions ; but that we 
 have still two " races " distinct in lineaee which, if 
 properly mated, will produce mares of the type and 
 usefulness attained fifty or one hundred years ago. 
 
 To commence, I maintain that in most cases the lack 
 of success is attributable to the dam. Every farmer 
 who possesses a mare, whether well or ill-shaped, sound 
 or lame, thinks her good enough to breed from. I should 
 say on the contrary do not breed from the old mare 
 because she is an old mare, but select from your stud 
 a suitable two or three year old filly, and the produce 
 from her will repay you for its keep. 
 
 On this point Mr. Lumley Hodgson remarks in No. 
 37 of the " Royal Agricultural Society's Journal " : — 
 
 " On many small holdings, now consolidated, small farmers worked 
 useful mares and bred valuable foals." 
 
 " We have lost the old useful short-legged Punch, which could 
 ride, drive, plough, cart, or breed a hunter." 
 
 " Concerning mares generally we breed from the refuse, the worn 
 out and worthless ; yet by putting even inferior mares to good sound 
 horses the breed generally improves. ' 
 
 " A thoroughbred horse can get a valuable general purpose horse 
 from an active cart mare — you must have one with quality, a good 
 game head, silky mane, good sloping shoulders, good action ; but do 
 bear this in mind, you must have game and mettle in the mare. 
 A sluggish, coarse, heavy mare, will assuredly breed a slug. The 
 old-fashioned and unhappily virtually extinct Cleveland could ride 
 
( lo ) 
 
 hunt, plough, and to a short-legged thoroughbred horse breed the 
 best of hunters." 
 
 It is well known that in the breeding of every 
 species of animal the research after one quality, while it 
 leads to greater perfection therein, is often accompanied 
 by manifest deterioration in other attributes. Such has 
 been the consequence of aiming at speed, while the 
 other essentials, such as size, shape, action, and strength, 
 have been wholly lost sight of. Horses can be reared 
 according to the wishes and instincts of man, and 
 the blood of the thoroughbred has been sought for 
 and used as though pace was the first and only 
 essential. 
 
 With reference to this subject, I may quote the 
 following remark of Mr. Booth, in support of Earl 
 Cathcart's article : — 
 
 " In addition and supplementary to blood we must have sub- 
 stance from somewhere. Weight-carrying half-bred horses, chargers 
 and hunters, and strong and nimble and enduring hacks, are and will 
 continue to be for ages to come, more and more in demand, and 
 will and must be continually, perhaps increasingly produced in their 
 natural home — England — and that in the greatest possible perfection. 
 And if in this affair we cannot attain to the absolute certainty of 
 science, the convergence of many minds and many experiences towards 
 one centre may result in the evolution of some recognised principles 
 See for example how Mr. James. Howard, M.P., practically treats . 
 the physiology of breeding, in his ' Application of Natural Laws 
 to the Breeding of Horses, Cattle and Sheep.' Mr. Howard was 
 there enabled to come to the conclusion that certain cardinal points 
 in the art of breeding have been fairly established. Such for instance 
 as outward conformation being derived from the male parent, the 
 internal organs chiefly from the female, and so on." 
 
 While on this question of speed and breeding, I 
 may draw attention to another point. We often find 
 that a mare has been mated with a thorough-bred horse 
 because she is fast, in order to produce something still 
 faster. She has proved to be good as a hunter, as a 
 hack, or for driving purposes, and has already several 
 strains of blood in her veins. Nothing, however, is 
 known of her pedigree on the dam's side, she is smaller 
 
( ■■ ) 
 
 than the stallion to be used upon her, and her dam was 
 perhaps no bigger than she is herself 
 
 According to all established principles the produce 
 from mares answering this description must degenerate 
 in size, as the bulk of the foal must accord with the 
 room through which the foal has to pass. When the 
 male is much larger than the female, the offspring is 
 generally of an imperfect form. If the female be propor- 
 tionately larger than the male, the offspring is of an 
 improved form. The improvement depends on this prin- 
 ciple, that the power of the female to supply her offspring 
 with nourishment is in proportion to her size, and to 
 the power of nourishing herself from the excellence of 
 her constitution. The size of the foetus is generally 
 in proportion to that of the male parent, and therefore, 
 when the female parent is disproportionately small, 
 the quantity of nourishment is deficient and her 
 offspring has all the disproportions of a starveling. 
 The larger female has also a larger quantity of milk, 
 and her offspring is more abundantly supplied with 
 nourishment after birth. Abundant nourishment is 
 necessary to produce the most perfect formed animal, 
 from the earliest period of its existence until its growth 
 is complete. The power to prepare the greatest 
 quantity of nourishment from a given quantity of food 
 depends principally on the magnitude of the lungs, to 
 which the organs of digestion are subservient. To 
 obtain animals with large lungs, crossing is the most 
 expeditious method : because well-formed females may 
 be selected from a variety of large size to be put to a 
 well-formed male of a variety that is smaller. By 
 such a mode of crossing the lungs and heart become 
 proportionately larger, in consequence of a peculiarity 
 in the circulation of the foetus, which causes a larger 
 proportion of blood, under such circumstances, to be 
 distributed to the lungs than to other parts of the 
 body ; and as the shape and size of the chest depend 
 upon that of the lungs, hence arises a large chest, 
 
( 12 ) 
 
 which is produced by crossing with females that are 
 larger than the males. 
 
 As an illustration of this we have the larger foal 
 obtained from the roomy cart-mare crossed with a 
 thoroughbred stallion, in comparison with the opposite 
 cross of a thoroughbred mare with a cart stallion. 
 
 The foregoing opinions of Henry Cline are deduced 
 from experience gained upon his farm at Southgate, in 
 the last century, and are supported by all the most 
 eminent practical breeders, such as Bakewell. Cully, 
 Somerville, Parry, and others : as well as by most 
 theorists, among whom we may mention Dr. Coventry, 
 — who wrote a pamphlet in 1806, entitled "Remarks 
 on Live Stock," — and also Darwin, Hunt and Young. 
 
 That the size and value of horses bred in Ireland 
 have decreased is easily discernible by those who 
 remember their former excellence, as contrasted with 
 the exhibits during the last few years at the Dublin 
 Shows. For one sizeable animal up to weight or fit 
 for coach or carriage purposes, there are at present 
 twenty-five small undersized horses, most of them not 
 weighty enough to pull a London Hansom cab. In 
 reality, in trying to meet the demand for hunters and 
 steeple-chase horses, the craze for blood to go the pace 
 has been increasingly in the ascendant, and size and 
 substance have been consequently lost. 
 
 Ireland being a country which still holds its name 
 as a large producer of horses, it is certain that very 
 many of the best hunters in England still come from 
 there. Nevertheless, the percentage of square-made, 
 sizeable, riding and driving horses is getting smaller 
 and smaller every year. 
 
 As a rule, it must be admitted that Englishmen 
 have not made a study, or given much thought to 
 breeding horses, with ' the exception of racers and 
 of massive beasts of burden for draught. The 
 intermediate animals, other than the race-horse 
 or the draught-horse, have been bred by accident 
 
( '3 ) 
 
 or caprice, and are of mixed lineage. This brings 
 me to the theory which, above all others, I am 
 anxious to impress upon your minds. To my thinking 
 there are only two distinct and definable types of 
 the equine race, the Thoroughbi<ed and the Draught. 
 On these two types long continued, costly and thought- 
 ful care has been bestowed with a view to found or 
 constitute in them a distinctive lineage. From each 
 of them classes have been established, which, by 
 common practice, are called "breeds." Thus, as 
 an outcome of the first — " the Thoroughbred " — we 
 have the race-horse pure, the Hackney, the Hunter, 
 and other varieties of light animals. As an outcome 
 of the second, or draught-race, we have the breed of 
 Agricultural and other heavy horses, known as Shire, 
 Suffolk, Cleveland, and Clydesdales. 
 
 This opinion I find supported in a work, " Cully 
 on Live Stock," published so long ago as 1794, in 
 which the author says : — • 
 
 " It is generally thought that we have only two original breeds 
 of horses in this Island^ viz., the race of blood kind and the black 
 cart breed, the rest have been supposed to be only variations from 
 these two by repeated crossings." 
 
 The Thoroughbred. 
 
 The history of the blood horse should be well 
 known, since it has been told by hundreds of able and 
 experienced writers during the past century. 
 
 Let me turn first to the "Sporting Magazine," Vol. i. 
 Nov. 1792, in which I find the following remarks : — 
 
 " In taking a review of Horses in England from early times to the 
 present, they seem only to have been divided into two general classes 
 which may be ranged under two distinct periods of time ; in the first 
 era, it was an universal custom for horsemen to fight in armour, and the 
 service was so severe, that only large stout horses were equal to the 
 task. It was therefore the constant endeavour of the English to raise 
 such a breed as should be able to answer the purposes required 
 of them." 
 
 " When armour was rendered useless by the invention of fire-arms, 
 the great horse ceased to be necessary. Lighter and more active 
 
( H ) 
 
 animals were introduced and here begins the era which comprehends 
 the SKCOND class of light and soft denomination. To encourage and 
 promote a race of these horses public rewards were given, wagers 
 allowed to be risked and races instituted ; which from the curiosity 
 they excite and the pleasure they afford always draw an incredible 
 number of spectators ; so as almost to supply the place of an Olympic 
 triumph to the owner of the victorious steed, and, from these concurrent 
 causes, prove a most powerful incitement to self interest ; too 
 powerful for the advancement of that plan which they were originally 
 intended to promote ; for, as if more speed were the only requisite 
 in a horse, all the properties and qualities have been sacrificed to it ; 
 but losing on one hand what they gain on the other, and being 
 weakened and refined, they become less serviceable from the excess 
 of the very quality which is reckoned their chief recommendation." 
 
 It is not necessary that I should contrast the 
 thoroughbred of to-day, for racing purposes, with his 
 predecessors of the last century. We know what they 
 are now in comparison to what they once were, by 
 the old records of the long-distance courses and four 
 mile heats, in which horses carrying twelve stone 
 competed, and in which bottom and stoutness were 
 equally important, and by reference to past numbers 
 of the " Racing Calendar," in which particulars of their 
 performances are fully recorded. Happily, also, we 
 possess innumerable old pictures of race-horses by 
 celebrated animal painters, such as Wootton, Seymour, 
 Sartorius, George Stubbs, Chalons, Ben Marshall, 
 Gilpin, and others. 
 
 Among these George Stubbs, R.A., wasthe pioneer 
 of horse painting, and his six years spent in Lincolnshire 
 on the wolds, in depicting the horse, will immortalize 
 his name. He occupied there an old barn-like sort 
 of a home where he carried on his studies in anatomy, 
 the results of which he published in eighteen plates, 
 and these original drawings are now to be seen at the 
 Royal Academy's rooms in Old Burlington Street, to 
 which Society they were bequeathed by the late 
 Thomas Landseer, brother of Sir Edwin Landseer, 
 the eminent animal painter. Previous to George 
 Stubbs, all other animal painters had merely delineated 
 
( -5 ) 
 
 the horse without possessing any genuine knowledge 
 of its anatomy, hence the stilty and rocking-horse 
 appearance of these animals, which could have never 
 been real or life-like. As I have thought perhaps 
 it would interest you, I have brought here with me 
 four pictures of Marske, Eclipse, Shark, and Mambrino, 
 by George Stubbs, R.A., that you may realise the 
 character of the race-horse of a century ago. 
 
 Art, indeed, may claim to have done much for the 
 horse, and there was something, therefore, in the sug- 
 gestion of Earl Cathcart that : — 
 
 " The Royal Academy might perhaps with advantage devote one 
 of its empty rooms to a Winter Loan Exhibition of the portraits of 
 famous horses by excellent artists, of which pictures, say from 1700 
 to 1820, the country is replete. How popular, how instructive 
 and encouraging such an exhibition would be ; and how its arrange- 
 ment would have delighted the late President of the Royal Academy, 
 Sir Francis Grant, who took pleasure not only in the weapon of his 
 art, bit also in the more exciting brush of reynard, the fox? What 
 a trotting out there might be of clever old horses by such clever old 
 artists as Aiken, Chalon, George Morland, Stubbs, Sartorius,. 
 Fernely, Herring, Ward, Landseer, and no doubt many others who, 
 if unrecalled by me, are yet well known to fame." 
 
 Feeling the directors of the Royal Academy would 
 not think it of sufficient public interest, I have arranged 
 with my friends, Messrs. Vokins, for an exhibition of 
 paintings, engravings, &c., connected with the works 
 of G. btubbs. Of these, as well as books of reference, 
 &c., I have a large quantity, which I have placed at 
 their disposal. Amongst other curiosities in that way, 
 I may mention a copy of a letter from Sir Joshua 
 Reynolds to Stubbs, complaining that while he received 
 only ^50 for his portraits of his sitters, he (Stubbs) 
 obtained as much as ^100 for his paintings of a horse. 
 
 Leaving art, however, let us return to our subject. 
 
 In selecting thoroughbred stallions it must be re- 
 membered they have not at the present time the old 
 attributes of strength and stamina. While more refined 
 and elegant they are not so suitable for crossing with 
 
( .6 ) 
 
 li^ht weedy mares, and hence the disappointment which 
 has caused so many to abandon the rearing of half-bred 
 horses. 
 
 Mr. George Lascelles, in attempting to show, how 
 by keeping the right sort of mare and using the most 
 suitable stallion, a farmer may reasonably expect to breed 
 a sound, saleable horse, with substance and action, 
 remarks : — 
 
 " I have had some experience and the opportunity of watching the 
 result of breeding from good well-bred hunting-mares with at least 
 three crosses of pure blood, and I must admit that the number of 
 valuable horses, say up to fourteen stone, bred in this way is very 
 limited, over a considerable number of years. I attribute this failure 
 to the attempt to get size from the sires used. A big thoroughbred 
 horse and a well-bred half-bred mare may produce a tall leggy horse, 
 but seldom a short-legged strong one. Some of our best weight 
 carriers have doubtless been first-cross from the thoroughbred horse 
 and a cart mare, and I consider that it is indispensable that the mare 
 should have the size and substance, and from these sorts of mares it 
 has been found that medium sized and even small short legged 
 thoroughbred horses with good sound feet, good legs and action have 
 proved the most successful sires. We all in Yorkshire look back to 
 horses got by Old President, Mac Orville and Perion, all small 
 horses, but they were mated with what were called Chapman and 
 Cleveland mares, which did the farm work in our northern dales, and 
 produced the best hunters and carriage horses of the times. These 
 mares were got by half-bred sires out of the cart-mares of the country, 
 the sires generally having a cross of thoroughbred blood. They were 
 kept as much as possible to a good bay colour, with black legs, and 
 the colts were always saleable either for hunting or harness. The fillies 
 were kept on the farms and bred from again. This I am inclined to 
 think is the only way that horse breeding can pay the farmer." 
 
 The task the breeder sets himself in seeking to 
 procure suitable sires is not an easy one, as it is essen- 
 tial in selecting a thoroughbred stallion for stud pur- 
 poses to avoid tall, leggy, oversized animals, and 
 particularly those having hereditary diseases, crooked 
 fore-legs, curby or sickle hocks, and ewe-necks. Above 
 all other considerations, the sire should possess good 
 body and feet, straight and true action. Pliability of 
 the knee is not necessary, but good hocks and galloping 
 action cannot be dispensed with. It is, on the other 
 
( 17 } 
 
 hand, of no consequence that he should have won races, 
 except on long distance courses carrying weight, and 
 still less material is it that he should have been 
 successful in procreating stock to run in the first rank 
 as two and three years old. 
 
 The qualities required in a successful breeder are 
 well summed up by Mr. Maynard in his contribution 
 to Earl Cathcart's article : — 
 
 " Not one man in a thousand has accuracy of eye and judgment 
 sufficient to become an eminent breeder ; if gifted with these quaUties, 
 and he studies his subject for years, and with indomitable perse- 
 verance devotes a Ufe time to it, he will succeed and may make 
 great improvements : if deficient in these qualities assuredly he will fail." 
 
 " My father," he says, " bought a three-year-old colt by President 
 from a really good Cleveland mare, which turned out well ; he rode 
 the horse himself, with his own hounds, and with Mr. Millbanks for 
 two years, and then sold him to the late Sir Harry Goodricke for 
 400 guineas. He sold another to the Duke of Cleveland for 400 
 guineas, by Woldsman, out of a plough mare : this horse could not 
 be beaten with fifteen stone on his back across any country with 
 hounds. Another beautiful weight carrying hunter my father sold to 
 the late Sheldon Cradock for 400 guineas ; he was by Petronius, out 
 of a Cleveland mare. I may mention that the Cleveland mares in 
 these days were good steppers and full of pluck. I saw a farmer 
 one day when we were hunting with the late Ralph Lambton, take 
 his mare from the plough, jump on her back, with winkers bridle 
 and collar round her neck, and go for about five miles across country, 
 take every fence before him, and was there when we killed our fox : 
 this very mare afterwards bred some famous hunters crossed with old 
 Mac Orville." 
 
 " I have had myself," he goes on to say, " many first rate hunters 
 by old President, by Mac Orville and Perion ; one horse by President, 
 bred by Mr. Rigg, of Yaffbrth, out of a plough mare." 
 
 " Another fine mare by Mac Orville, dam a Cleveland mare, I 
 bought from Mr. J. Parrington, no day was too long for her, and no 
 country too stiff. 1 sold her to the Hon. H. Willoughby, afterwards 
 Lord Middleton ; his huntsman, Morgan, told me she was the very 
 best hunter he ever crossed. I also sold a horse by Perion, similarly 
 bred, to Mr. Willoughby, which proved a grand hunter. John Payne, 
 of Market Harborough, bought many hunters from me by President 
 and Perion, out of Cleveland mares, and they always gave great 
 satisfaction." 
 
 Before leaving this question of the thoroughbred, 
 1 would remark that, it is to be hoped the valuable 
 
( i8 ) 
 
 prizes offered by the Committee for Thoroughbred 
 Stallions, at the show which opens to-morrow at the 
 Royal Agricultural Hall, Islington, will introduce to 
 breeders animals well adapted for getting useful half- 
 bred horses. Such a system claims for itself all the 
 advantages which Lord Calthorpe advocated in a letter 
 to the " Times" in 1875, in which he recommended the 
 provision of stud horses by private subscription rather 
 than by Government aid. The owners of stallions 
 winning any of the prizes are required to guarantee 
 twenty subscriptions for serving tenant farmers' mares 
 at a fee not exceeding £2 los. 
 
 So far as the size of thorougbred horses is con- 
 cerned we have some curious statistics. 
 
 Admiral Rous stated fifteen years ago in " Daily's 
 Magazine," that the stature of race-horses had increased 
 an inch in every twenty-five years since 1 700, and that 
 whereas the average size of horses then was 1 3 hands 
 2 in., the average in 1870 was 15 hands 2 in. 
 
 If we cross the Atlantic we shall find that all the 
 fastest trotters in the United States descend from the 
 native breed crossed with English Thoroughbreds, 
 which were then only small horses. " Imported 
 Messenger," the son of " Mambrino," bred by Lord 
 Grosvenor, was exported to America towards the close 
 of last century, and most of the celebrated trotters in 
 that country trace back to him. 
 
 The Duke of Westminster has in his possession 
 the original portrait by George Stubbs, R.A., of this 
 thoroughbred stallion " Mambrino," the sire of " Im- 
 ported Messenger," who won many long distance races 
 on the English turf. This oil painting may be taken 
 as a faithful likeness ; but no one can examine it 
 without perceiving how little resemblance it bears to 
 many of the flimsy racehorses of the present day. The 
 editor of Hiram Woodruff's well-known and enter- 
 taining book, " The Trotting Horse of America," 
 Slates that one hundred million dollars, or twenty 
 
( 19 ) 
 
 million pounds sterling, struck American soil " when 
 * Imported Messenger' came charging down the 
 gang-plank of the ship which brought him to the 
 United States." 
 
 As an evidence of the value of the blood imported 
 Into the United States from England, we may notice 
 that In the number of the " New York Spirit of the 
 Times," which appeared upon the 24th of last January, 
 the names are given of no less than 994 trotters liable 
 to appear in public during the present year, all of 
 which have, In American phraseology, " records of 
 two minutes thirty seconds or better." When we 
 remember that there Is not at this moment a single 
 English horse capable of trotting a mile In three minutes, 
 we shall easily see what the value of these 994 wonder- 
 ful performers must be to our Transatlantic kinsmen. 
 Nor should it be forgotten that the American trotter 
 is as much the result of careful selection, of mixed 
 breeding, and of education, as the finest Anglo-Arab 
 Thoroughbred that ever won races in this country. 
 
 Turning from the United States to our Australian 
 Colonies, the following remarks on Australian Horse 
 Breeding, may not be without Interest : — 
 
 " Colonel Williams the Director of Remount Operations in India, 
 has expressed his opinion of Australian horse breeding in the form of 
 a report. He has inspected the principal studs of Australia and New 
 Zealand, and regrets that he was unable to visit Queensland. The 
 object that the Government of India had before them in delegating 
 Colonel Williams to visit Australia was that he might acquaint himself 
 with the source of supply, present and future, of remount horses for 
 India, and also impart information to those interested in the trade, 
 either companies or shippers, of the exact requirements of the 
 Government in regard to the supply of horses. He states as 
 follows :— " From observations made throughout your colonies, I am 
 forced to come to the conclusion that, with few exceptions, the 
 breeding of horses is confined to two classes — the thoroughbred 
 and the heavy cart-horse. The medium kind of horse is sadly 
 wanting. This class should supply you with carriage and buggy 
 pairs, spring cart and cab hnrses, and heavy weight hacks, and 
 obviate the necessity of the ever-recurring remarks in the state ol 
 the horse market reviews of ' No carriage pairs to hand ; buggy pairs 
 
( 20 ) 
 
 and saddle horses scarce ; many inquiries for them,' Sic. And I take 
 it the reason is because of late years sufficient attention has not been 
 paid to the breeding of this class of horse alone, but that it was 
 sufficient if the culls from the thoroughbred or the light ones from the 
 heavy stock were sold to meet that demand." 
 
 " In years gone by it was not uncommon to hear of mares having 
 arrived from England for breeding purposes. Now-a-days it is a rarity 
 to hear of any coming. The consequence is that you have gone on 
 breeding from those you have ; you have not carefully and thought- 
 fully culled out your hght fillies, but you have bred from all ; the 
 natural result has followed, a great preponderance of your stock 
 has become light, and you are hampered with it now. 'I'o remedy 
 this state of things, and for you to breed horses that will repay you, 
 it behoves you to change your system of breeding, for it is evident 
 that you cannot all at once change your light mares." 
 
 Much of the advise here given to AustraHan 
 breeders would not be thrown away in this country. 
 It is time, however, that we turn from the considera- 
 tion of the thoroughbred to the draught horse. 
 
 TAe Draught Race. 
 
 Here, again, it is not difficult to trace the history 
 of this type of animal. Going back 300 years we 
 shall find that the native horse in this country was 
 undoubtedly undersized. An Act of Parliament was 
 passed as long ago as 32 Henry VHI. enacting that 
 no stallion, not being 15 hands, should be turned 
 out on common or waste lands. 
 
 During this and the next century premiums were 
 held out to increase the size. Large horses were 
 imported from the low lands of Holland and Friesland 
 to cross with the English breed for the purposes of war, 
 and thus to supply chargers fit to carry the Cavaliers 
 in heavy armour {vide Albert Diirer's print about 1500). 
 The knight, with all his accoutrements, rode between 
 25 and 30 stone. The late Colonel Burnaby, of the 
 Life Guards — whose loss we deplore — when mounted 
 upon his black charger, weighed only 22 stone. 
 
 This large breed spread throughout England, and 
 especially through the districts between the H umber 
 
( 21 ) 
 
 and the Cam, occupying the rich Fen lands of Lincoln- 
 shire and Cambridgeshire, and extending westward 
 through the counties of Huntingdon, Bedford, North- 
 ampton, Leicester, Nottingham, Derby, Warwick, and 
 Stafford to the Severn ; but while extensively bred 
 upon these rich and succulent pastures, the breed was 
 not confined to the counties just named. It was to be 
 found both northward and southward, and retained its 
 typical character, varying but slightly with the soil, 
 climate, and food. After the period when armour 
 went out of use, by reason of the introduction of 
 improved firearms, the breed was still maintained, 
 as the increased wealth of the country created a demand 
 for massive animals adapted to other purposes. 
 
 It must not be forgotten however that down to the 
 end of the 1 7th century agricultural operations were in 
 the main carried on by oxen. 
 
 The mares were crossed with the racehorse of that 
 day and threw superior foals, suitable when grown up, 
 for carrying heavy weights in the saddle, and for 
 tugging coaches, carriages, and similar conveyances 
 along primeval roads. 
 
 As late as 1795, when Arthur Young wrote his 
 various works describing his tours through the counties 
 of England and Scotland he found on many farms that 
 horses were but seldom used. Oxen were the beasts 
 of burden for the heavy work upon the land. This 
 famous writer has no good word to say in favour of 
 employing horses for ploughing, but on the other hand 
 he strongly recommends the continued use of oxen as 
 the cheapest and best animals for the purpose. There 
 can be little doubt that the draught-horse of that period 
 was " the general purpose horse," as it is undeniable 
 that he performed all the duties required of him, 
 ploughing in some cases, working in carts, and going 
 to market ridden or driven by the farmer, and some- 
 times accompanied by his wife or daughter. 
 
 In those counties where horses were employed 
 
( " ) 
 
 upon the farm they were small in size, in comparison 
 to the animals used on the land at the present time, and 
 Marshall's Rural Economy of Norfolk," 2 vols., pub- 
 lished in 1787, says, "The farm horses of Norfolk 
 were formerly a small brown-muzzled breed, light boned, 
 but they stood hard work, and hard keep in a remarkable 
 manner, and two of them were found quite equal to the 
 Norfolk plough in the Norfolk soil." 
 
 Speaking of Yorkshire cart horses Mr. Cully says: — 
 
 " Yorkshire draught-horses, and particularly the Cleveland Bays, 
 are so justly esteemed for their great exertions in the coal and lime 
 season. The weights carried, distance travelled, and the time it is 
 performed in for several weeks together, are certain proofs of their 
 activity, strength, and hardiness. Their colour is mostly bay, and 
 their form is such that the mares, put to a full-blood stallion, breed 
 excellent hunters and saddle horses, and to a half-blood horse, capital 
 coachers or carriage horses." 
 
 A little earlier than this, in 1788, in Marshall's 
 "Yorkshire," I find : — 
 
 "The Vale, the Wolds, the Holderness, probably employ a 
 hundred Stahions. One hundred Mares are considered the full 
 complement for one horse, some of them perhaps do not get fifty. 
 On this calculation there are from five to ten thousand horses bred 
 between the Eastern Wolds and the Humber." 
 
 " During the last twenty years some capital Hunters have been 
 bred in Yorkshire. This change was principally effected by one 
 horse, Jalap, a full-bred horse, whose pedigree and performances 
 are well known upon the turf He is still living, and what is remark- 
 able, last season, at the age of thirty, covered several Mares. His 
 leap, five guineas each for blood Mares, two guineas for *" Chap- 
 man's Mares." 
 
 " Almost everything depends upon the Mare." 
 
 " What are a few guineas in the first purchase of a good Mare ? 
 And what are a few days ploughing, or a few rides to market, com- 
 pared with the difference between a race of good and of ordinary 
 horses." 
 
 In Nimrod's letter to the "Sporting Magazine" for 
 September, 1827, says : — 
 
 " Mr. Mason also breeds some valuable horses, and amongst 
 
 * A dealer or market man. There are some old pictures and prints in existence with the 
 Farmer and his Wife on one horse riding to Market 
 
( ^3 ) 
 
 Others he showed us a very fine three-year-old colt of the true Cleve- 
 land bay breed, which he intended using as a stud horse He was 
 upwards of i6 hands, with remarkably good legs; and, barring his 
 head, which was coarse, was very handsome. I believe this breed 
 was much sought after by the heroes of old. Doubtless from their 
 hardihood and activity there is no species so calculated for agricul- 
 tural purposes as Cleveland bays ; and good hunters to any weight 
 are bred from the second cross with the English racehorse and a 
 Cleveland mare." 
 
 It will be observed that extraordinary high knee 
 and all round action is the general characteristic of the 
 draught race, particularly in the Shire and Clydesdale 
 breeds. I do not mean the massive stallions of these 
 breeds fit only to be stud horses for begetting animals 
 like to themselves. I allude to many Shire and Clydes- 
 dale stallions, such as have been before the public. At 
 the Glasgow shows of Clydesdale stallions I have seen 
 many horses with the true action of the Norfolk trotter. 
 I have in my mind's eye also, several " Shire " stallions, 
 such as " Norfolk Wonder," exhibited at the London 
 Show, 1880; "Cromwell," in 1882; "Champion" 
 (Statters), a winner at many shows; and a stallion which 
 I once possessed, named " Paragon." I will also mention 
 two stallions which were sold at my sale last month, 
 " Gay Spark " and "Crowland Chief." These, and very 
 many draught stallions possessing good shoulders, have 
 all the true high fore, and good hind action, which is 
 depicted in a picture in my possession, of a "Trotting 
 Cart Horse," painted by Sartorius, in 1818. I could 
 also mention very many mares of the draught race 
 with these good qualities ; I will, however, name one 
 only, which many of you have seen at the principal 
 shows, Mr. Brierly's "Sensation." 
 
 The species of draught horse now in general 
 use is well represented by four different societies : — 
 First, we have the Shire Horse Society, which, 
 besides its Stud Book, recording the history of the 
 breed, dating back to the last century, holds an Annual 
 Show in London. 
 
( 24 ) 
 
 Secondly, we have the Suffolk Horse Society, 
 and its Stud Book. This Society is well supported by 
 the County Agricultural Society, the Royal Agricul- 
 tural Society, and the Essex Agricultural Society, which 
 offer special prizes for the " Suffolk " breed. 
 
 Thirdly, The Cleveland Horse Society. This 
 recently established association has issued its first 
 volume. There are one or two Yorkshire Agricultural 
 Shows, which have favoured the reputation of this 
 equine produce, and it is to be hoped that special 
 classes for " Clevelands " will be offered at the principal 
 shows in England. 
 
 Fourthly, we have the Clydesdale Horse Society, 
 which, besides its Stud Book, offers annually, premiums 
 and medals at Glasgow and various Agricultural Shows, 
 while the Royal Agricultural Society of England have for 
 some years had separate classes for this breed. 
 
 The mention above made of various Horse Societies 
 naturally leads me to the question of stud books. 
 
 A great deal has been written as to the advisability 
 of establishing a Society for Registering Hunters in 
 Stud Books. Advocates recommending such a step 
 must have persuaded themselves that there were suffi- 
 cient half-bred mares in the country to be worth 
 recording ; but, in truth, up to the present time the 
 experiment would have ended in failure, as such animals 
 must first be bred, and hunters can only be bred in 
 future as they have been in the past, by judicious cross 
 breeding between the Thoroughbred and Draught, and 
 by selection of sire and dam to correct faults. 
 
 In " Post and Paddock," on the breedino^ of hunters, 
 it is stated by the " Druid," writing in 1856 : — 
 
 " He could never get the exact cut of a hunter he had set 
 his mind on, till in despair, he put his short-legged cart mare 
 to a thoroughbred horse. Her first filly was laid up in 
 lavender till she was rising five, and then crossed with a thorough- 
 bred, and this union inaugurated a long line of fast, weight-carrying 
 hunters, which have been the apple of his eye for years. Others, 
 while they think that to carry weight, nothing can beat the cross 
 
( -^5 ) 
 
 of a blood horse with an active high-shouldered cart mare, as 
 tirmly maintain that the second remove is never so good as the first. 
 And on we go through a perfect tide-roll of breeding specifics, alike 
 pleasurable and speculative. The best instance of the first cross that 
 we remember, was a mare called " Poll of the Vale," by " Great 
 Britain," who was bought at four years old out of a team for ;!^28, 
 with hair enough on her legs to stuff a moderate sized pillow. After 
 carrying a 17 stone for two or three seasons, she was sold for 300 
 guineas to the Hon. Wellesley Pole, with a promise that she should 
 be given back when she could hunt no longer ; and although she 
 passed through several hands this contingency was kept alive, and 
 she died in giving birth to a colt, by Vandyke junior, in her old 
 owner's paddock. A Sir Joshua mare, called Cashmere, was similarly 
 bred, and after being bought at Melton Fairfor;^ 38, passing through 
 Mr. Maxse's hands, and making 350 guineas at Tattersall's, she became 
 the property of the late Mr. John Moore, of the old Melton 
 Club, for 300 guineas, and was in his stud when he died." 
 
 " Our own impression is, that to secure a good hunter the size 
 should be on the side of the dam, and the breeding on that of the 
 sire. A large roomy mare should be put to a small, compact, blood 
 horse. Sir Harry Goodricke, whose courtesy and discrimination of 
 character, both in man and horse, has never been surpassed, was 
 especially particular on this point, and would never buy a hunter 
 whose sire was not thoroughbred." 
 
 A letter signed " Yorkshire," it is true, ridicules 
 the idea of forming a " Hunter's Stud Book." The 
 writer says, " The idea seems to me a most extra- 
 ordinary one. What is it proposed to enter therein ? 
 A mare that has bred a hunter, that ought to breed 
 one, or that has been one herself ? Or will it be 
 only those with a certain number of crosses of blood, 
 after the system of the Herd Book ? I know an 
 excellent hunter out of a dun pony, and another 
 equally good out of a mare doing daily cart work. 
 Would either of these have been guaranteed by the 
 stamp of the Stud Book ? And yet each have been 
 sold for ^200." 
 
 In the face of these disparaging remarks, perhaps 
 however, some ultimate good would result if an inter- 
 mediate breed of mares between the thoroughbred 
 and the draught could be founded, and a register 
 kept of such cross bred animals. This could be done 
 
( =6 ) 
 
 by forming a Society to publish a register enrolling all 
 the hunter mares which may win prizes at future shows 
 in the United Kingdom. 
 
 Of this, at least, I am convinced, that it is impossible 
 to over-estimate the good effect which the different 
 Stud Book Societies are producing, or the importance 
 of maintaining them. 
 
 I do not believe, however, in relying alone upon Stud 
 and Herd Books, and unless public form be sought 
 out, through the agency of animals with a stamp of 
 merit upon them, coming into competition with each 
 other to be judged accordingly, such Societies will 
 tend, in my opinion, to but little good. 
 
 Undoubtedly, in proportion as the different breeds 
 approach more nearly to perfection, so much larger 
 will be the choice of animals suited by judicious 
 crossing for obtaining the objects which we all have in 
 view. 
 
 Low, in his work on " Domesticated Animals," pub- 
 lished in 1845, says, speaking of hunters : — 
 
 " These form a class rather than a breed of horses, because different 
 varieties of horses may be used for the purpose of hunting, as the 
 race-horse itself, or the superior class of saddle horses of any kind." 
 
 " The modern hunter differs greatly in his character and form 
 from the horses formerly employed in chase in this country, having 
 partaken of that tendency to a lighter form of which all the horses 
 used for the saddle have partaken and this in an increasing degree 
 within the last half century. 
 
 The race-horse is designed essentially for the exercise of the 
 property of speed, the hunter is also required to possess a degree of 
 speed sufficient for the uses to which he is destined, but with this he 
 should be possessed of endurance and of the strength required for 
 carrying the weight of his rider over an unequal surface." 
 
 " The tendency to the ewe neck, which in the short and violent 
 gallop of the race course is admissible, would in the case of the 
 hunter, be inconsistent with sensitiveness to the rein and the ease of 
 the rider. The neck of the hunter should be sufficiently muscular, and 
 his chest just so broad as to indicate strength without heaviness ; the 
 long stride of the racer not being required in the hunter, the latter 
 should possess the conformation which indicates strength in the 
 dorsal and lumbar regions, that is, he should be well ribbed home 
 and have the back moderately short." 
 
( ^7 ) 
 
 " Although the change so widely produced in the horses of this 
 country, by aiming at a higher standard, has doubtless given us 
 animals more spirited, active, and graceful, it has, at the same time, 
 had the effect of causing great numbers to be reared defective in form, 
 deficient in strength and bone, and which have lost the hardy quality 
 of the older races, without having arrived at the properties which 
 superior breeding should communicate. The deterioration is 
 generally admitted, and the causes are deserving of consideration as 
 indicating the remedies." 
 
 Alatinz- 
 
 We come now to the most important part of my 
 subject, viz. : that of Mating. By judiciously crossing 
 or blending the two races — the Thoroughbred stallion, 
 with all the quality he possesses, and the Draught 
 mare, with size, frame, and constitution, well formed 
 flat legs and high courage — animals may be produced 
 which no other country in the world can yield. From 
 the half-bred mares thus begotten cross breeding can 
 again be resorted to, and so regulated by the selection 
 of the thoroughbred or Hackney, as to re-produce 
 improved size, strength, and constitution in the 
 stock of riding and driving horses, available for 
 general use. The great object of breeding on this 
 principle is the production of animals of improved 
 form which will repay the breeder ; and experience 
 has exemplified that this has only been attained in an 
 eminent degree in those cases where the females were 
 larger than the males. 
 
 " Were I," says Sir J. S. Sebright, writing in the 
 past century, "to define what is called the art of 
 breeding, I should say that it consisted in the 
 selection of males and females intended to breed 
 together, in reference to each other's merits and 
 defects. 
 
 It is not always by putting the best male to the best 
 female, that the best produce will be obtained, for 
 should they both have a tendency to the same defect, 
 although in ever so slight a degree, it will in general 
 preponderate so much in the produce as to render it of 
 
( 28 ) 
 
 little value. We must, therefore, observe the smallest 
 tendency to imperfection in our stock, the moment 
 it appears, so as to be able to counteract it before it 
 becomes a defect." 
 
 Mr. Sawrey Cookson's remarks in No. 37 of the 
 Royal Agricultural Society's Journal are worth atten- 
 tion here : — 
 
 " Many breeders," he says, " of thoroughbred stock, irrespective 
 of shape either in sire or dam, send their best mares to the most 
 fashionable horses, trusting entirely to high-class blood on both 
 sides to produce a racehorse." 
 
 " The breeder, further to ensure size as likely to command a 
 price, selects the big horse of the neighbourhood, advertised, as I 
 have often observed, 'Standing nearly 16 hands 2 inches, with 
 substance,' not knowing, or overlooking, the fact that the more size 
 the more liability to all natural blemish." 
 
 The thoroughbred and the draught races are both 
 peculiarly special to this country, having been 
 built up by ourselves and our ancestors extending back 
 hundreds of years, at a cost which the people of no 
 other nation could realize. " Every Englishman loving 
 a horse," has not scrupled to spend money on its 
 improvement ; money, which if brought together, 
 would amount to a sum of not thousands, but millions. 
 At the first blush this estimate will appear to be large, 
 but when we remember the many ways in which money 
 has been expended in this direction — notably in 
 breeding for the turf alone — it will be seen that after all 
 there is not so much exaggeration in this remark as 
 might at first sight appear. 
 
 In the 1 6th and 17th centuries commissioners were 
 specially sent to all parts of the world to select the 
 best horses of each country for importation into 
 England, and the importance of this subject at those 
 particular epochs is frequently referred to by numerous 
 contemporary authors. 
 
 At the present time it may be accepted that the 
 agricultural or draught race is a composite production 
 descended from stock which was common in the 
 
( 29 ) 
 
 United Kingdom centuries ago, improved and built 
 up from the old war horse, which possessed size, 
 strength, and constitution. With no race are we better 
 acquainted than with this latter, better known now as 
 the old English or Shire horse as he has come down 
 to us, improved by such famous breeders as Bakewell, 
 Cully, and others, and the knowledge we possess of 
 his lineage and pedigree extends back to the last 
 century. He is also referred to by many writers 
 before Arthur Young's time, and is presented to our 
 view by the many pictures and engravings at the offices 
 of the Shire Horse Society, some of them dating as far 
 back as 1760 and 1780. 
 
 The breed now varies in size, according to the 
 climate and soil in our different counties ; the heavy 
 horses bred on the low rich fen lands will lose their 
 size and hair when bred on up-land (chalk, gravel, or 
 what is called mixed soil), but they will retain that grand 
 quality of flat bone which is found only in the breeds 
 known to have possessed fine silky hair. 
 
 It is well to remark, that where there is a pro- 
 fusion of silky hair there will certainly be found the 
 correct quality of bone and well-shaped fore-legs. 
 Round boned, calf-kneed animals are rarely seen in the 
 Shire and Clydesdale breeds, and seldom or ever when 
 the animal has plenty of fine silky hair. 
 
 I come now to the conclusion of my subject, and in 
 doing so feel perhaps that I ought to apologise for its 
 length, although I have endeavoured, so far as my own 
 remarks have been concerned, to be as brief as pos- 
 sible. I hope, however, I have said enough to encourage 
 my friends here to exert themselves in the cause which 
 I have so much at heart, and which I believe to be one 
 of great importance to the future welfare not only of 
 agriculturists but the country generally. 
 
 Before sitting down, and with a view to simplify 
 discussion, which, — looking at the thorough knowledge 
 some of our friends present have upon the subject, — 
 
( 30 ) 
 
 cannot fail to be of great interest and value, I will 
 briefly summarize the various points which I have 
 endeavoured in my Paper to bring out : — 
 
 I St. The decline of horse-breeding as evidenced by 
 the number of foreign horses imported of late 
 years into this country. 
 
 2nd. The percentage of sizeable riding and driving 
 horses is getting smaller every year, and the 
 prices paid for them are greater. 
 
 3rd. That lack of success in breeding is in most 
 cases attributable to : — 
 
 a Want of care in the selection of young 
 mares of sufficient size. 
 
 b Sacrificing too much to speed, so that in 
 the craze for pace^ size and substance have 
 been disregarded. 
 
 4th. To remedy this state of things, and in order to 
 breed horses that will repay their owners, there 
 must be a change in the system of breeding, 
 and what is wanted is : — 
 
 c The judicious blending of the qualities of 
 the thorouhgbred stallion with those of the 
 well-formed young draught-mare possessing 
 size, frame, constitution, fiat legs, and high 
 courage. 
 
 d From, these half-bred mares so obtained^ 
 cross-breeding can be resorted to by the 
 selection of the thoroughbred or hackney, 
 and thus a stock of riding and driving 
 horses, available for general use, will be 
 secured, possessing improved size, strength, 
 and constitution. 
 
( 31 ) 
 
 DISCUSSION. 
 
 Lord Carrington : Nothing on earth, Mr. Chair- 
 man, would have induced me to open my mouth before 
 an assembly who have so much more practical know- 
 ledge than I have had it not been that I was requested 
 by our Chairman to propose a vote of thanks to 
 Mr. Walter Gilbey. I do so not as a member of the 
 Club, and not, I am sorry to say, as a moderately 
 successful farmer, but as one of his old friends, and one 
 who has known his family long. In that capacity 1 
 have much pleasure in obeying your call to-day, sir. 
 But if any person in England had told me on Saturday 
 that my old friend, Mr. Tattersall, and I were going to 
 make a motion which would be acceptable to a meeting 
 of English gentlemen, and that would be received with 
 enthusiasm, as I am sure this motion will be — if any 
 person who had, like some of us here, passed last week 
 in listening to the speeches in the House of Commons 
 and in the House of Lords for and against the Vote of 
 Censure on Her Majesty's Government — if anybody 
 had told me that we were going to propose and second 
 a vote which would be unanimously received at this 
 present moment by any meeting of English gentlemen, 
 I should have said that that man was clean out of his 
 mind. But, gentlemen, we have listened to a practical 
 subject, very practically dealt with by a man who 
 knows what he is talking about. Perhaps I might be 
 allowed to allude to the sale of Mr. Gilbey's cart-horses, 
 which took place three weeks ago. That sale showed 
 
( 32 ) 
 
 what can be done by a gentleman who goes into busi- 
 ness with a knowledge of what he is about. The 
 horses at that sale were all my friend's own breeding, 
 and they were sold at what I think we can really call 
 very fair value — that is, the price that a willing buyer 
 will give a willing seller in the open market. Not 
 only have we had the pleasure of listening to Mr. Gilbey, 
 but we also have the advantage of having several very 
 practical persons here this afternoon who are well 
 acquainted with the breeding of horses. I think 1 
 ought to mention my friend, Mr. Anthony Hammond, 
 who. I believe, was one of the original starters (I am 
 speaking under correction) of the idea of the Hackney 
 Society. We have also Mr. Frederick Street here, and 
 his Grace the Duke of Westminster, who has given an 
 example of what can be done by breeding, as he has 
 bred a Derby winner himself. We have also my 
 brother-in-law, Lord Hastings, who is one of the 
 youngest breeders on the Turf, as well as one of the 
 youngest members of the Jockey Club, and though he 
 has only been breeding three years, he has the first 
 favourite for the Derby, and I am sure every gentle- 
 man in the room wishes him success. Having so many 
 celebrated breeders present, the discussion will, I feel 
 sure, be of great interest. I should like to ask the 
 gentlemen present whether they quite agree with 
 what has been stated in this paper about selecting 
 thoroughbred stallions. It is stated that thorough- 
 bred stallions have not at this time the old attributes 
 of strength and stamina. That is a question I should 
 very much like to hear argued, and I am sure 
 Mr. Tattersall, a very good judge, will be able to 
 enlighten us on that point. There is also one point 
 upon which hunting gentlemen will be able to enlighten 
 us, I allude to the following quotation : — " I saw a 
 farmer one day, when we were hunting with the late 
 Ralph Lambton, take his mare from the plough, jump 
 on her back, with winkers, bridle, and collar round her 
 
( 33 ) 
 
 neck, and go for about five miles across country, taking 
 every fence before him, and he was there when we killed 
 our fox." When times were better, I had the pleasure 
 of hunting a pack of hounds in a grass country, and all 
 I can say is that if that farmer had taken his mare from 
 the plough and ridden five miles after the Cottesmore 
 hounds, he would not have been within three miles of 
 the finish when we did kill the fox. It is not as a 
 farmer or member of this club, but as a great personal 
 friend of Mr. Gilbey, that I beg with great respect to 
 propose a most cordial vote of thanks to him for his 
 able, instructive, and exhaustive paper. 
 
 Mr. Edmund Tattersall : Mr. Chairman, my 
 lords and gentlemen, it is a very great honour to me to 
 be called upon to return thanks to Mr. Gilbey for the 
 admirable paper he has read to us. Lord Carrington 
 has been kind enough to refer to me in a very nice way, 
 but I am sure of one thing, and that is that we all thank 
 Mr. Gilbey for all he has said and done, because I 
 think it will raise a very useful discussion. There can 
 be no doubt on one point — that he has thrown his 
 heart and soul into it. Everyone who knows Mr. 
 Gilbey and has seen his pictures and prints, knows he 
 has studied this subject very deeply, and can show 
 perhaps the best collection of prints and pictures in 
 England with regard to horses. Of course there are 
 many points that would raise discussion, but I do think 
 Lord Carrington has touched on rather a weak point. 
 I do not think the cart mare would have been so near 
 the hounds as the paper states. I have no doubt we 
 must go a long way back to get good mares, for I 
 know from the best authority in England (Mr. Philips) 
 that in the last twenty years the average number of 
 mares sent out of this country, useful to breed from, 
 has been not less than i,ooo a year. Just look what 
 they would have produced in this time. They are 
 the sort of mares we now want, and the foreigners 
 have got them because they send over constantly; they 
 
( 34 ) 
 
 have bought the mares here, and the only reason why 
 we have none is, that they gave rather more money 
 than breeders in this country could give. A long while 
 ago I advocated a remedy for this in the presence of 
 the noble Duke, and perhaps it is presumptuous on my 
 part to speak again on it ; but I do not think it would 
 have happened if we had what they have in every other 
 country but England, a national stud. In Austria and 
 Prussia they have 2,000 horses at least covering for 
 the country at ys. or los. a head; and there is not a 
 horse travelling in those countries that has not a cer- 
 tificate of soundness from the Government. As far as 
 the stallion goes that is the weak point here. Any 
 wretched horse that cannot win a race is thought good 
 enough to send round the country, and if he covers at a 
 little less than a good horse standing close by he gets 
 good mares. I have sold, to-day, a horse called 
 " Cavaliero," out of " Cambuscan," a good enough 
 horse. I asked the gentleman who sent the horse up 
 the reason why he sold him. He said, " I had kept 
 him two or three seasons, and last year they sent me 
 six mares at £2 los. a piece. That is my reason. I 
 cannot afford to keep him for nothing." " Lord Coventry 
 told me the same years ago, with respect to a very good 
 horse he had. The difficulty is to get sound mares to 
 sound horses. I believe there are many of them about 
 the country, but unless it is made a business in the trade 
 you cannot get them to send them to the proper mares. 
 Of course, they do not like the trouble and bother of 
 sending them far away, but if it was made a business 
 to send through the country, that is how it might be 
 managed. I took the liberty of asking a gentleman 
 from Prussia what he thought was the annual cost of 
 all their Government horses. After a little thought he 
 told me he did not think it exceeded ;^ 100, 000 a 
 year — a mere fleabite. I know a great many good 
 mares have gone, and I think it is very kind of 
 Mr. Gilbey to tell us how possibly we may get them 
 
( 35 ) 
 
 back again, for I am perfectly certain that every other 
 horse you see in London is a foreign horse. The name 
 of "Cavaliero" brings back the remembrance of my 
 old friend, who is dead unfortunately. He said, 
 " You are very foolish in your country to allow one of 
 the finest strains to go out of it, and in not having 
 proper stallions under Government control." I only 
 hope that Mr. Gilbey's paper will have the effect of 
 teaching us to breed good horses, for I think we are 
 getting sadly deficient in horses for riding and driving 
 purposes. If you ask any of the best dealers in London 
 to get a pair of well-bred English carriage-horses, you 
 will have to give an enormous sum for them, and they 
 will have great difficulty in getting them at all. I most 
 cordially agree with every word that Lord Carrington 
 said with regard to the thanks due to Mr. Gilbey, and I 
 am sure we all feel deeply grateful to him. I know it 
 will please him most if we go and act on what he 
 has said. 
 
 The Duke of Westminster, K.G. : Mr. Chairman 
 and gentlemen — I share, I believe, a very common 
 dislike among English gentlemen, that of making 
 a speech, and I came here with the intention of listening 
 rather than speaking, because really, in point of fact, 
 I have very little practical experience in breeding half- 
 bred stock, which, I suppose, is the main object and 
 interest of our meeting here to-day. The chief diffi- 
 culty, it appears to me on the face of it, is the exporta- 
 tion of so many of our best mares. Now, the evidence 
 given before Lord Roseberry's House of Lords Com- 
 mittee some years ago — I think I shall be borne out in 
 what I say by those gentlemen present who have read 
 the Report, and who probably themselves, like Mr. 
 Tattersall, gave evidence— showed that there was a 
 general unanimity of feeling and opinion that the best 
 mares of England, and especially Cleveland mares, had 
 gone out of the country. The Cleveland mares were 
 said to be almost non-existent, but I am glad to hear 
 
( 36 ) 
 
 that there is a resuscitation of them, and that a Cleve- 
 land Society has been formed. The formation of that 
 Society leads me to hope that there are one or two 
 Cleveland mares left at all events, and that this breed may 
 probably be re-established. It is, after all, a question 
 of demand and supply, and the farmers will get the 
 best price they can for their mares. I do not know 
 how we are to prevent good mares going out of the 
 country. There is one paragraph in the paper (which 
 is an extremely able and interesting one, and shows 
 Mr. Gilbey's thorough knowledge of the subject from 
 early times) in which he says that the thoroughbred 
 horse is more weedy than he used to be, but that, I 
 think, hardly bears out the paragraph in which Admiral 
 Rous is quoted as having said that whereas the average 
 size of horses formerly was I3'2, the average since 
 1870 was 15*2. I am inclined to think that you will 
 find as many horses of size and substance now as ever. 
 Of course, speed is the one essential to thoroughbreds, 
 because after all racing is the only possible test of merit 
 and you win by speed. The question of stamina is 
 another thing. I quite agree that it is unfortunate that 
 so many prizes are given to two-year-olds and that 
 there are very few given to horses that remain on in 
 training after three years old, so that it really hardly 
 pays to keep them in training to an older age. All the 
 greater prizes are given for two and three-year-olds, 
 and it is very difficult to make four-year-olds pay, so 
 that they are not kept, and we hardly know whether 
 our horses have good substance and stamina. Any- 
 body who knows anything about breeding will under- 
 stand that it is absolutely necessary to breed from 
 young, sound mares. Perhaps Mr, Gilbey would not 
 mind adding the word "young" in the last paragraph 
 but one (C) of his paper. I know it would carry out 
 his intentions, and I think it would be better if that 
 word was inserted in that paragraph. A lady friend of 
 mine who had an old- mare that she had ridden for 
 
( 37 ) 
 
 many years, asked me, when it was 23 years old, if it 
 was not right to begin breeding from her. She quoted 
 the opinion of some friends of hers — I think Sir 
 Edward Sullivan was one — who told her that such and 
 such a mare had produced a very good colt when it 
 was 23 years old ; but it is quite another thing to begin 
 breeding at 23. I am afraid it is too often the case 
 that when a mare has done good service and is worn 
 out in her legs and constitution, it is supposed that it is 
 the right thing to put her to any horse that may happen 
 to be in the country. My own experience of half-bred 
 stallions is this : I have a horse called Golden Cross ; 
 he is by Brown Bread, and the dam New Oswestry, 
 which has a stain in her pedigree ; but he is in such 
 demand that I have no difficulty in getting sixty mares 
 at ;^5 to outsiders, and £t, to my tenants for him to 
 cover. We have more applications than we can pos- 
 sibly take. Then I have a Norfolk pony covering at 
 £2, to outsiders and £1 to my own tenants. I only 
 mention these facts to prove that if you get a good 
 animal you may obtain a price that will recoup you not 
 only for the keep, but for your original outlay. There 
 are good farmers and bad farmers, and the latter will 
 always send to the nearest horse, however worthless 
 he may be, which is very detrimental to the breeding 
 of horses. But I am no expert, and I will conclude 
 by saying that I cordially support the vote of thanks 
 to Mr. Gilbey for his excellent paper. 
 
 Mr. Anthony Hamond (Westacre, Norfolk) : As 
 president of the Hackney Society, which is going to hold 
 its first Show to morrow, I may perhaps be excused for 
 offering one or two remarks upon this subject. I agree 
 very cordially with a great many things said by M r. G ilbey, 
 and I think we owe him a great debt of gratitude for 
 the way in which he has taken in hand the breeding 
 of horses. But in regard to crossing, I must mention 
 one thing, that almost every cart mare crossed with a 
 thoroughbred horse breeds an animal which, in my 
 
( 38 ) 
 
 humble experience, is not able to go out as many days 
 in the week as a man who keeps only a few horses 
 requires. The difficulty is in getting good back sinews. 
 If you distress an under-bred horse one week, the odds 
 are, that you won't get him out again for another three 
 weeks, whereas, if he is a thoroughbred you will be 
 able to ride him again within a few days. The great 
 difficulty is how we are to get a weight-carrying horse 
 of a strong strain and thoroughbred. With regard to 
 the hackneys which are now going to be shown, I hope 
 you will suspend your judgment as to what riding and 
 driving horses there are in England until you have 
 seen the Show to-morrow. I have in my hand a 
 catalogue of exhibits which contains no less than 95 
 stallions of various sizes, some up to 16 hands in height, 
 and between thirty and forty mares of the same breed. 
 I may say one word about the title of the Society. We 
 owe the starting of it to Mr. Euren, the editor of the 
 "Norwich Mercury," a paper which has been published 
 at Norwich ever since 1730, or rather earlier, and 
 which has kept records of all horses travelling, and all 
 Horse Shows. He also is the well-known editor of the 
 Norfolk and Suffolk, Red Polled Herd Book. For 
 many years he has taken the greatest interest in what 
 was called the Norfolk Trotter. He has searched every 
 book that it has been possible to get on the subject, and 
 has made his notes for about twelve years. He came 
 to me some ten years ago to see if he could get a 
 certain number of people to bring out and publish the 
 pedigree and particulars of the horse known as the 
 Norfolk Trotter. The Norfolk Trotter is an accepted 
 term, but a great many of us know that besides the 
 breed in Norfolk the same horse had been bred for 
 many years in Yorkshire (especially in the Hull district) 
 and other parts of England, and we thought that if we 
 called it Norfolk Trotter we should be adopting too 
 narrow a term. We, therefore, propose to enlarge it, 
 and call the Society " The Hackney Stud Book 
 
( 39 ) 
 
 Society," established to improve the breed and 
 promote the breeding of Hackneys, Roadsters, Cobs, 
 and Ponies. Well, we could do nothing then, 
 times were very bad, and the whole thing tumbled 
 through until about two years ago, when Lord Hastings 
 was president of the Norfolk Agricultural Show, and 
 he alluded to the question at the annual meeting, held 
 at Fakenham. A meeting was soon afterwards held 
 at Norwich. His Royal Highness the Prince of Wales 
 was good enough to say he would become patron, and 
 the whole thing has now arrived at this stage, viz., that 
 we have about 300 yearly members, besides some 100 
 gentlemen who put down ten guineas to start the 
 society. The first Show is going to be held to-morrow, 
 and I hope that all gentlemen present will see it and 
 will join the Society. At a meeting held at Tattersall's 
 Rooms some two months ago a suggestion came from a 
 gentleman present as to whether a Show of a certain 
 number of thoroughbred horses could not be held 
 at the same time. Our answer was yes, if those horses 
 were sires of half-bred foals. After some consultation, 
 an influential committee was formed, and it was 
 arranged that thoroughbred sires should be shown on 
 the understanding that they undertook to cover so 
 many mares at 50s. each. There are no less than 34 
 of these horses. The first one is a horse by Hermit ; 
 others by such sires as Jolly Tar, by Prince Charlie, 
 Dutch Skater, Sterling, Wenlock, Lecturer, The 
 Cathedral, and so on. I think these names are quite 
 good enough to show that there are certain horses going 
 to be shown which will be within the reach of any 
 farmer's use and will prove thoroughly good sires, and 
 that our Show will demonstrate that we still have in 
 England good stock, both thoroughbred and hackney. 
 The Duke of Westminster : There is one point 
 which I omitted to mention in reference to an observa- 
 tion of Mr. Tattersall's with regard to the State 
 providing stallions. It will be in the recollection of 
 
( 40 ) 
 
 gentlemen present that Lord Rosebery's Committee in 
 their report decided against that proposal as interfering 
 too much with private enterprise. I have been a great 
 deal exercised all through the year in the matter of 
 the Queen's Plates, and my own feeling is very much 
 in favour of giving prizes for thoroughbred stallions at 
 Agricultural Shows, and so on. But the amount is not 
 very large — about ;!^3,500 — and I found the difficulty 
 so great, and that we were also going against the prin- 
 ciple of the original institution of the Queen's Plates, 
 that I was obliged to give up that idea. My friend, 
 Lord Enfield, in the House of Lords, gave notice of a 
 motion for enquiry with regard to this question, but 
 after he had obtained a great deal of information from 
 foreign countries he came to the conclusion that we 
 cannot move at all in the matter, because he says it is 
 so entirely out of the question for anything of the sort 
 to be undertaken in this country owing to the enormous 
 expense attending it. 
 
 Colonel KiNGSCOTE : I do not know that I have any 
 business to make any remarks to you, but this is a most 
 important subject, and one that I have taken interest in 
 for some time past. H is Grace the Duke of Westminster 
 has just said that he has been in favour of the Queen's 
 Plates money being given in prizes to thoroughbred 
 horses for getting half-bred stock. That has been my 
 opinion for a very long time. I felt that it was useless 
 for the Government to start studs like they do in foreign 
 countries, because anything undertaken by the Govern- 
 ment in this country becomes of colossal size, is very 
 hard to manage, and costs a great deal of money. 
 Much more is done by private enterprise in this country 
 than in other countries. There is no doubt the great 
 thing we do want is to encourage the breeding of good 
 half-bred horses for riding and driving. What won't 
 do for riding very often will do for driving. There are 
 two considerations with regard to this. We all know 
 now-a-days that the farmer wishes to get the quickest 
 
( 41 ) 
 
 return he possibly can for his money, and he does it 
 much more quickly by breeding cart horses than he 
 would by breeding half-bred horses. He does not get 
 rid of the half-bred horses so quickly ; they require 
 more looking after, and are more liable to accident ; 
 still, I do hope that there arq in many parts of the 
 country tenant-farmers and others who will continue to 
 breed half-bred horses, and to them, I think, we may 
 give a helping hand. By encouraging those who keep 
 stallions, in giving them prizes the amount of which will 
 assist them in the purchase of those horses we shall 
 enable a better horse to be brought to the farmers' 
 doors. The difficulty in this may be that a person who 
 buys any sort of a thoroughbred stallion is not particu- 
 lar as to his hereditary soundness. I cannot help 
 thinking, taking even the modest sum of ^3,000 a year 
 from Queen's Plates money, that in the month of Sep- 
 tember the country might be divided into different 
 districts in the same way that the Royal Agricultural 
 Society divides it, and in the principal towns in those 
 districts prizes might be given for stallions that had been 
 covering, at a small fee, mares belonging to tenant- 
 farmers in that district. They might assemble in those 
 towns. You would find very good judges, who would 
 judge them, probably for nothing at all, or, at all events, 
 only for their travelling expenses, and one good result 
 would be that you would have these horses examined, 
 and whether they won a prize or not, they should have 
 a medal if ihey passed sound, that is, not having any 
 hereditary disease. As soon as you had started these 
 competitions, and I do hope that this Show that we are 
 going to see to-morrow is only the beginning of them, 
 I think you might in a year or two supplement it by a 
 Show of brood mares and foals, those foals to be got, if 
 not by one of the prize horses, at all events by a horse 
 having a medal for soundness. That would do more 
 to help the breeding of half-bred horses than anything 
 else, putting aside the difficulty of having Government 
 
( 42 ) 
 
 stallions or a Government stud. It is not only a ques- 
 tion of profit to those who breed themselves, but to the 
 public at large. We all know that the Government at 
 this present time has the greatest difficulty in remount- 
 ing their cavalry and artillery. I know a colonel of a 
 regiment lately come from India, who tells me that he 
 had the greatest difficulty to get horses even of very 
 inferior size to what he had when he went out to India. 
 This is a public question, and if the Government cannot 
 take it up, I only hope that there is enterprise enough 
 among individuals in this country to start this scheme, 
 as I hope we shall do by the Show to-morrow, and to 
 go on in the lines that I have very imperfectly indicated. 
 I should like to add my tribute of thanks to those which 
 have been given to Mr. Gilbey for his very able and 
 most interesting paper. 
 
 Mr. J. K. Fowler (Lee Manor, Great Missenden, 
 Bucks) : I have been waiting for a tenant farmer to get 
 up to say something on this great question. Only a 
 few years ago I read a paper on breeding " Facts and 
 Principles," and I endeavoured to lay down the dictum 
 that we should look to the male animals for external 
 appearance and locomotive power, and to the female 
 animal for internal organisation. I think that has been 
 tried, and has been found to be correct as a general 
 rule. I am old enough to recollect when the old- 
 fashioned post-horse and coach-horse was seen plodding 
 along the main roads of England, and I remember old 
 Bob Newman, of Regent Street, defining the best 
 riding post-shay horse as being a good weight-carrying 
 hunter. I perfectly remember the class of horses that 
 could go twelve miles an hour with a gentleman's 
 carriage behind them and that is a sort we cannot 
 get at the present day. If the class of horse that has 
 now been suggested by Mr. Gilbey could be produced 
 and carried on I am afraid you would often get too soft 
 an animal to go the pace and to carry the weight 
 required as a hunter and a hack. Another question has 
 
( 43 ) 
 
 been suggested about the Government taking this 
 matter up. When I went to Austria some years since 
 I learned that the Government sent round, and that if 
 a farmer or any owner of land said he would undertake 
 the management of a good entire horse they would send 
 him one, and the whole district round could get the 
 services of that horse for a very small sum, I do not 
 think much more than los. of our money. I believe, 
 also, that the money paid by the farmers went towards 
 the keep of the horse. I think something of this sort 
 could be done in this country, either that the Govern- 
 ment themselves should assist, or that every master of 
 hounds in England, where it was practicable, should be 
 persuaded to keep a good horse for the use of the 
 farmers in the hunt. I remember many years ago with 
 the Queen's hounds they sent down a horse to Aylesbury 
 called Carbonaro. Old Lord Lonsdale also sent a horse 
 called Uncommon, brother to Jericho, a remarkably 
 good animal. Sir Nathaniel Rothschild now kindly 
 keeps a horse for the use of the farmers of the district. 
 I believe that system might be carried on throughout 
 the country with a very great deal of effect. I think 
 such is the knowledge of masters of hounds that they 
 know the class of horse that is required in their district, 
 and would try and select that animal which they thought 
 to be best to produce a hunter fit for themselves or other 
 people to ride. I may say one other thing. As a 
 farmer I have tried the breeding of horses, and I have 
 always succeeded remarkably well with cart horses, 
 and if one is bred with any defect, a farmer can 
 keep him for his own purposes, and he makes a good 
 useful slave to carry on the operations on his farm. 
 But if he gets a defective horse, as a racehorse or 
 a hunter, he can do nothing with him — it is a very 
 difficult thing for him to know what to do. Such 
 things will occur, and, as a matter of £ s. d., you will 
 find farmers are very chary of trying to breed what is 
 called a nag-horse. 
 
( 44 ) 
 
 Mr. F. Sherborn (Bedfont, Hounslow) : We have 
 bad a very excellent paper, but although we have 
 listened to several speakers, 1 have not heard anyone 
 yet touch very particularly upon the important point of 
 all — will it pay? that is what we want to know. If 
 you can prove that it will pay to breed nag horses, I 
 am sure tenant farmers will be very glad to do so. I 
 have done a little in that direction myself. Three years 
 ago I had a magnificent horse 2 2 years old, still perfectly 
 sound and unblemished, handsome, perfect in temper 
 and colour, and vigorous as any four-year-old could be. 
 I have had that horse three years, and though I have 
 let him at three guineas for half-bred mares, I have not 
 had more than five mares in a year. This shows that 
 there is very great difificulty in bringing this subject to 
 the front. I hope that something will be the outcome 
 of the Show to be held this week. I should be very 
 glad if I can give you further information on the subject. 
 
 Mr. Jacob Wilson (Chillingham, Northumberland): 
 I can assure you I came here with the sole purpose of 
 being a listener and a learner, and, like many others, I 
 have not come in vain. The subject is one which, un- 
 doubtedly, in the public mind, is ripe for action, and I 
 feel confident that the future (which I believe will be a 
 great future) will . take its commencement from the 
 excellent paper read by Mr. Gilbey this evening. It 
 has been said very properly that the whole question is 
 one of supply and demand, but, unfortunately, it is the 
 competition between English private enterprise and 
 means and the money of foreign Governments. And 
 the only way, therefore, to fight this battle is to fight 
 it upon the principle of supply and demand, and with 
 the weapons employed by the foreigners. You must 
 outbid the foreigner if you want to keep your good 
 horses and mares at home. It is impossible for one 
 moment to think that you can impose any tax or fiscal 
 embargo against the exportation of mares from this 
 country. Foreigners have a double motive in buying our 
 
( 45 ) 
 
 mares. They require them first for their cavalry or 
 artillery, and afterwards for breeding purposes, so that 
 it is practically impossible in the present condition of 
 agriculture for the tenant farmer of England to com- 
 pete with the foreign buyer, or to refuse the tempta- 
 tion of a high price for his mares. Mr. Sherborn has 
 touched upon a very important subject also, and it is 
 this— that it must not be thought for a moment that the 
 farmers of England as a body can attempt to breed 
 hunters or cart horses everywhere. You must have all 
 the necessary conditions present for so doing. There 
 is a great deal of rough grass land (I speak more par- 
 ticularly from a knowledge of the North of England) 
 where horse-breeding was formerly carried on with very 
 great success, but that seemed to give way under land 
 improvement and land drainage, whilst the tempting 
 prices of beef and mutton have subsequently caused the 
 rearing of cattle and sheep to be substituted for horses. 
 But whether we can by any means (yet to be devised) 
 tempt the British farmer to return to it, I am not at all 
 prepared to say. Of course the difficulty is, as the 
 Duke of Westminster has said, in keeping at home the 
 raw material in the shape of our mares. I regard with 
 very great satisfaction the movement started with regard 
 to this question. It has been encouraged very much 
 by the success which has attended the breeding 
 of cart horses of various kinds, both Shire and Clydes- 
 dale. I have been practically interested for the last 
 ten or twelve years in the importation of good draught 
 stallions from Scotland into the north of England, and 
 even ten or twelve years ago saw the importance of it, 
 and gave 400 guineas for the hire of a Clydesdale stallion 
 for one season, and with the very best results. It is 
 very encouraging to observe that the younger stock 
 at the recent Shire Horse Shows is a great im- 
 provement upon the older classes. The time has 
 arrived when the attention of the public should be 
 devoted to the improvement of other breeds of 
 
( 46 ) 
 
 horses. As one who is interested in the stock of 
 England generally, I, in my humble way, with Colonel 
 Kingscote and other friends, have been trying to move 
 in this direction, and a Committee of the Royal Agri- 
 cultural Society, which has been appointed, is about to 
 sit to consider the whole question of breeding Hunters. 
 If, therefore, any gentleman present has any practical 
 suggestions to offer, I hope he will not hesitate to 
 hand them in to us. I cordially join with those who 
 have spoken in my meed of thanks to Mr. Gilbey for 
 the very admirable paper to which we have listened 
 this evening. 
 
 Major Dashwood (Kirtlington, Oxford) : Mr. 
 Chairman, my lords and gentlemen, as the last speaker 
 has referred to the duty of all here present who have any 
 practical experience, trying to give the benefit of it to 
 others, I will try to do so. I have bred horses off and 
 on for a good thirty years ; I have bred thoroughbreds ; 
 I keep a shire-bred stallion, and I have bred several 
 half-breds. The best that I have ever bred — and I 
 have her now — was got out of a light cart mare by a 
 Korfolk trotter, and that is why I wish heartily to sup- 
 port the Show that we are to have to-morrow. In our 
 county — Oxfordshire — the Earl of Abingdon, for many 
 years past, has kept trotting stallions which, 1 under- 
 stand, have got very useful stock. I do not altogether 
 agree with putting a thoroughbred sire upon a cart 
 mare, the natures are too opposite, therefore, these 
 trotters, if with size and substance, will become a 
 valuable breed to put on the light cart mares. As 
 regards tenant farmers who breed in my district, I 
 know some who have been very successful. 1 hey 
 have had well-bred mares which they put to light cart 
 stallions. One of these was a Suffolk stallion and he 
 got very fair stock ; but, as a rule, the joints from the 
 Suffolk cross were not good, I know a farmer who bred 
 very useful animals, and 1 asked him to tell me something 
 of his experience. He showed me an old mare which 
 
{ 47 ) 
 
 I understood belonged to the Rothschilds, and I believe 
 was thoroughbred. He got his useful animals by putting 
 her to a cart stallion, a short-legged horse, i6 hands 
 high, with a touch of " blood " in him. I saw some 
 of his stock, very nice animals they were. The farmer 
 told me that he has not the slightest difficulty in parting 
 with them. What I want particularly to support is the 
 breed of these trotting stallions now called " hackneys," 
 I think they will be very valuable to put on the 
 light cart mares. The great authority on horse- 
 breeding in Oxfordshire told me that his impression 
 was that it was better to put a light cart stallion 
 upon a well-bred mare than a thoroughbred stallion 
 upon a light cart mare. While entirely agreeing 
 with this — I am sure there is nothing like " blood," 
 but my opinion is that without size and bone 
 blood is of little value ; get size and bone, and some 
 blood, you have then a mare fit to put to a short- 
 legged, stout, thoroughbred horse. There is one other 
 remark I will make. I think there are several gentle- 
 men here who do not belong to this club, and I may 
 tell them that it was from this club that the Shire 
 Horse Society was started, and it is also through this 
 club that we have had the opportunity of listening to 
 Mr. Gilbey's very important and most valuable paper. 
 Therefore, after what Mr. Hamond has remarked, I 
 would add that if there are any gentlemen here who 
 wish to join this, " The Farmers' Club " I shall be 
 only too glad to take their nominations. 
 
 Mr. T. B. Woodward (Hardwicke Bank, Tewkes- 
 bury): I have only risen to make two remarks. Mr. 
 Gilbey says on the first page of his paper: " It is an 
 admitted fact that the true-bred English hunter, hack, 
 carriage, and draught horse cannot be equalled in any 
 other country." May I ask him the simple and straight- 
 forward question. Is it owing to climatic considerations 
 that England is superior to any other country, or is it 
 due to any other cause. If not, I suppose the explana- 
 
( 48 ) 
 
 tion would mainly be that given by other gentlemen 
 who state that our best mares have been taken out of 
 the country by the higher prices given for them. The 
 second observation I wish to make is with reference 
 to the formation of a stud-book for horses. I have 
 had no experience myself in breeding thoroughbred 
 horses, but some years ago, in connection with my late 
 father, I had a good deal to do with the breeding of 
 cart-horses and shorthorns. The remark I am about 
 to make may be considered heresy by Mr. Thornton, 
 but I think that in dealing with horses the judgment 
 of sensible men would be that really no horse ought to 
 be eligible for entry unless he has won a prize some- 
 where or other ; because if you allow a horse to be 
 entered on the strength of his blood only you may have 
 an unlimited number of bad ones in your book. As to 
 shorthorns, we know that all animals which have three 
 generations of pure blood in them may be entered P- 
 the books, and several practical men who have looke*>i 
 at this subject from a scientific point of view have comil' 
 to the conclusion that it would be better if we were? 
 stricter as regards the rules as to eligibility for entry.' 
 The first consideration is that the good points shall be 
 maintained and developed in a horse, and therefore the 
 observation I have made will exactly tally with the 
 suggestion of Colonel Kingscote, namely, that if entire 
 horses are spread all over the country, it will be to the 
 farmers' interest to use either a stud-book horse or a 
 medal horse — that is to say, one which has won a prize 
 at a country Show or been highly commended, and in 
 this way the inferior horses now travelling the country 
 would be set aside. 
 
 Captain Fife : No doubt it is greatly with the view 
 of what the last speaker has said that the Show and 
 prizes for thoroughbred stallions have been started. 
 We hope it may develop what the last speaker has said, 
 namely, that the bad horses which are not good enough 
 to win prizes will be driven out of the country for the 
 
( 49 ) 
 
 want of patronage, and that the good ones will be 
 brought to light by being awarded prizes, and thus these 
 owners who have good horses will find that they have 
 plenty of custom for them. His grace the Duke of 
 Westminster said that he always found that the list for 
 his stallions was very well filled up, and I have no doubt 
 that other good horses would get the same patronage. 
 With regard to the remarks that were made as to the 
 breeding of nag horses paying, I believe that if 
 farmers would breed from younger mares — if they 
 would go and buy a three-year-old filly from an Irish 
 drove, that three-year-old would keep growing into 
 money. The purchaser might keep her for two years, 
 and then sell her as a five-year-old at a profit, and 
 at the same time, instead of lying idle, the mare 
 might breed a foal, and the owner would not have the 
 expense of the keep of the brood mare to add to the 
 r )st of the foal, the brood mare having paid for her 
 eep by being sold at a profit. That is one way of 
 .laking breeding pay. The other way is by working 
 che dam and thus making it earn its keep — working it 
 on the land, or using it for general harness purposes. 
 Breeding from mares kept solely for breeding purposes 
 cannot have as good a chance of paying as by following 
 the above alternatives. There is no doubt that 
 something should be done to improve our supply of 
 mares in the country. A mare as a brood mare has 
 no special value as she ought to have, and I think 
 if prizes were given for the best brood mares 
 at this Stallion Show another year, it would be a 
 move in the right direction, and I also think that there 
 should be a class for mares that have never been put 
 to the stud, but which are suitable for breeding hunters. 
 I think that many people who have a mare, perhaps 
 without any intention of breeding from her, might say 
 I will show her in this class. They might show her, 
 and perhaps they might win a prize, and that very 
 likely would be an inducement to the owner to breed 
 
( 50 ) 
 
 from that mare, whereas otherwise it might not have 
 entered his head to do so. I came this afternoon quite 
 unprepared to address you, and I beg you to excuse all 
 my shortcomings. I wrote a letter in the " Field" last 
 week, which expresses my views more clearly than I 
 have been able to express them to you now. With 
 regard to a stud book, that is an idea to which there 
 are a great many objections. I think that more people 
 object to it than approve of it, and I proposed, as you 
 may see in my letter to the " Field," an alternative which 
 might improve the breed of brood mares without 
 establishing a stud book. It was that all mares who 
 win prizes or are commended at the Shows should be 
 entered in a book, and that this book should not be 
 called a stud book, but " Hunters' Prize Book." Prize 
 stallions would be entered in the same way, and of 
 course, if the produce of the prize mare and prize 
 stallion again got entered in this book that animal would 
 be very valuable as a brood mare. I think this would 
 add a great deal to the value of the brood mares in 
 this country, and perhaps the owners of good animals 
 would be very likely to think twice before parting with 
 them. By this means they are more likely to be kept 
 in the country instead of going out of it. 
 
 The Chairman then put the question, which was 
 carried unanimously. 
 
 Mr. GiLBEY, in reply, said — Mr. Chairman, my 
 Lord Duke, my Lords, and Gentlemen, I fully 
 appreciate the vote of thanks which you have passed, 
 and in replying to the various remarks made during 
 the discussion, having taken up so much of your 
 time, I shall endeavour to be as brief as possible. 
 First, as to the thoroughbred horse, I had no 
 intention of disparaging this animal, because, for turf 
 purposes, I believe he has been bred with more speed 
 and consequently is more valuable, for the greatly 
 increased number of races, and high value of the 
 stakes for which he now competes. I will, however, refer 
 
( 51 ) 
 
 you to the engravings and paintings of " Marske," 
 " Eclipse," " Mambrino," and " Shark," and I think 
 you will then admit that thoroughbreds, at the present 
 time, although they have increased in stature four 
 inches in the past hundred years, have not, at any rate, 
 the attributes of strength they had in the last century. 
 To realize this fully, it is perhaps necessary that you 
 should have the same faith in Stubbs that I have. My 
 belief is, that he could only portray on canvas the 
 animals as he saw them, and we have in the pictures 
 I have here with me the thoroughbred as he existed 
 in his time. 
 
 As to the remarks of my friend, Mr. Edmund 
 Tattersall, I should state that I am not a believer in 
 Government assistance for the objects we have in 
 view. Private enterprise has carried us thus far. If 
 we wait for State aid, the loss to the country will be 
 still yearly going on ; and "while the grass is growing 
 the steed is starving." 
 
 Again, it has been stated that in certain parts of 
 England, where Thoroughbred stallions have been 
 located, they have not been patronized by farmers and 
 others. This does not coincide with my experience, 
 neither with the experience quoted by His Grace the 
 Duke of Westminster. My stallions have been for 
 years well patronized, the Service fees regularly paid, 
 and yet they do not travel, but serve mares at my 
 own Paddocks only. 
 
 On the all-important point of breeding, I should 
 scarcely have ventured to make the propositions I have 
 done here to-day if I could not have supported them 
 by quotations from well-informed writers, giving many 
 satisfactory results of mating Thoroughbred Stallions 
 with Draught mares. I am sorry circumstances 
 do not allow of my reading many letters on this 
 subject, received from practical breeders, expressing 
 as they do approval of my ideas in regard to the 
 mating of Thoroughbred Stallions with Draught 
 
( 52 ) 
 
 Mares. I regtet also that Mr. G. M. Sexton has 
 been prevented attending this meeting ; it was his 
 intentiont to be here ; his experience is interesting. 
 He has been successful in breeding, three years in 
 succession, from a Suffolk mare, and each year by 
 different thoroughbred stallions. The produce —three 
 in number — he has sold when young, realizing nearly 
 ;^6oo, and they have turned out very valuable weight- 
 carrying hunters. I could enumerate many other 
 successful instances which have come under my 
 notice, but will only mention one more. A nephew of 
 mine put a thoroughbred mare to a draught stallion. 
 The produce was a filly which when two years old he 
 put to "Reality," Mr. Flanders' famous Hackney 
 stallion, and as a result he has a yearling which is 
 sizeable, with good action, and promises to turn out 
 valuable. 
 
 I may add also that I am a believer in the use of the 
 Hackney stallion for cross-breeding — provided suitable 
 mares are mated with him — as he will assuredly impart 
 to his progeny that high trotting action not to be 
 obtained in such perfection in any other way. 
 
 As to the suggestion offered by His Grace the 
 Duke of Westminster to add the word "young" in the 
 last paragraph (C). I willingly accept the proposition, 
 as my meaning is fully in accordance therewith. 
 
 In reply to Mr. Woodward, I have already said 
 it is an admitted fact that the true-bred English 
 hunter, hack, carriage, and draught horse cannot be 
 equalled in any other part of the world ; therefore, with 
 the old stock now in the country, with proper food, 
 and the love w^hich every Englishman has for the 
 noble animal, we may still hold our own. Depend 
 upon it there is more in these things than in either 
 climate or soil. 
 
-?*.*>■"; 
 
 S