UNIVERSITY OF CALIFORNIA 
 AT LOS ANGELES
 
 A N 
 
 AUTHENTIC ACCOUNT 
 
 OF THE 
 
 DEBATES 
 
 IN THE 
 
 HOUSE OF LORDS, 
 
 O N 
 
 TUESDAY, DECEMBER 9, 
 MONDAY, DECEMBER 15, 
 
 AND 
 
 WEDNESDAY, DECEMBER 17, 1785. 
 
 ON THE 
 
 BILL 
 
 " For eftablifhing certain Regulations for the better 
 61 Management of the Territories, Revenues, and 
 '* Commerce of this KingJom in the Eait- Indies." 
 
 To which is added, 
 
 AN ACCURATE LIST OF THE DIVISIONS 
 
 Both on MONDAY and WEDNESDAY. 
 
 LONDON: 
 
 Printed for J. D E B R E T T, (Succcflbr to Mr. AI.MON,) 
 oppofite BuuLiKGTo.v-HousE, PICCADILLY. 
 
 M.DCC.LX.XXm. 
 
 745 Ticgjft
 
 1XS 
 
 4-6-5" 
 
 A5 
 
 I7E3 
 
 PREFACE. 
 
 A HE newfpapers have been fo exceed- 
 ingly deficient in their account of the 
 very important debate which took place 
 in the Houfe of Lords on Tuefday the 
 pth inflant, that a Gentleman who was 
 prefent, and is very anxious that the 
 Public fhould have as accurate an ac- 
 count as poffible of that day's proceed- 
 ing?, has fent the following account to 
 the prefs, in which, however, he is con- 
 es fcious that he has not done juftice to 
 any one of the noble fpeakers* 

 
 . 
 
 - 
 

 
 THE 
 
 DEBATE 
 
 IN THE 
 
 HOUSE of LORDS, &c 
 
 half paft three o'clock on Tuefday 
 the pth of December, Mr. Secretary Fox 
 brought up the India Bill from the Houfe 
 of Commons ; which being read a firft time, 
 the Duke of Portland moved that Monday 
 next be fixed for the fecond reading of the 
 till. 
 
 Lord Thurlow immediately rofe and ob- 
 ferved that it was indeed very extraordinary 
 that even the common forms of Parliament 
 
 B were
 
 r * 3 
 
 were neglected, though the bill then be- 
 fore their Lordmips was of fuch infinite 
 magnitude. By the order of their Lord- 
 fhip:,' proceedings, the Honfe fhould be mo- 
 ved for leave to print the bill ; and after 
 that, furely the fecond reading of a bill of 
 fo much importance fhould be fixed for a 
 diftant day. 
 
 EarJ Temple concurred in opinion with the 
 noble and learned Lord rr-The noble Duke 
 his LordnYip obferved, had moved for feve- 
 ral papers to be laid upon tne table : He 
 wifhed to afk the noble Duke if tbefe were 
 all the papers which his brain thought 
 
 rieceflary to be produced. His Lordmip 
 
 added, that as the fubJL'ct was of the firft 
 importance, affecllng the chartered rights 
 of Britifh fubjecls affe&ing, nay tending 
 totally to fubvert the conftitution of this 
 country He hoped their Lordfhips would 
 not proceed but upon the moft mature de- 
 liberation : he therefore trufted to the well- 
 kown candour of the noble Duke, that he 
 would not oppofe any farther motion he 
 
 might
 
 C 3 J 
 
 might make .for the proa net Ion of fuch pa- 
 pers as to his mind feemed neceilary to ttid 
 elucidation of fo important a fubject. His 
 Lordfliip declared, that he had meant ori 
 that day to move for a great number 
 of records and papers 'from the India 
 Houfe; but not having the lift in his 
 pocket, he tr lifted to the honour and 
 the candour of the noble Duke that fuch 
 a motion would not be oppbfed oh a fu- 
 ture day. 
 
 The Duke of Portland faid, he was not 
 prepared to give a pofitive anfwer to _ his 
 Lordfhip's queftion. To his mind the pa- 
 pers already on their Lordlhips' table were 
 very fufficient to evince the abfolute necef- 
 fity for adopting the pfefeiit meafure ; at 
 the lame time, he mould not be againft 
 the production of farther evidence, if it 
 fhould appear to the Houfe to be neceflary. 
 
 Lord Thurlow obferved, that there was 
 
 a very great degree of indecency in the 
 
 mode of proceeding ; that the fubjeft was 
 
 B 2 perhaps
 
 C 4 ] 
 
 perhaps the moft important that had ever 
 been agitated in Parliament, in whatever 
 light it was taken. In the firft inftance it was 
 a moft atrocious violation of private proper- 
 ty an enquiry which cut every Englifhman 
 to the bone; and which could only bejuftificd 
 by the ftrongeft necerfity. The neceflity, 
 added his Lordfhip, muft be fully and fair- 
 ly proved by evidence brought to the Bar 
 of the Houfe, and not by reports from a 
 committee, to which he would pay as much 
 attention as he would to the adventures of 
 Robinfon Crufoe. In the next place, fup- 
 pofing the neceflity of an interference to be 
 proved beyond the power of cavil, ftill, his 
 Lordfhip contended, that the prefent bill 
 neither went to the correction of any exift- 
 ing evil, to the prevention of evil in future, 
 . nor to the relief of the Company's wants. 
 It was, in faft, a moft direct and daring 
 / attack upon the conftitution of this country, 
 and was a fubverfion of the lirft principles 
 of the Britifh government. When, there- 
 fore, fuch a bill was brought forward, it 
 behoved their Lordfhips to be very accurate-
 
 [ S ] 
 
 ly informed of the real ftate of the Com- 
 pany's affairs. 
 
 Lord Loughborongh replied to Lord 
 Thurlow. His LordnYip ftated, that the 
 Charter of the Eaft-India Company had 
 been violated upon former occalions. He 
 particularly inftanced the Regulating Act 
 of 1773, which he difapproved bectiufe it 
 did not go far enough. In fad, it was im- 
 poflible to regulate the Company's affairs J 
 without an infringement of their Charter. 
 Surely their Lordmips mnft all agree in 
 the propriety of fomething being done. 
 Look to the ftate of the Company in Eng- 
 land. It owes above a million ileriing to 
 Government ; bills have been drawn from 
 India to a great amount. Let us cafc our 
 eyes to the Company's fettlements abroad. 
 What fcenes of dcfolation and diftrefs do 
 we behold ! A prince has been driven from 
 his palace his treafures have been feized, 
 and he is now a fugitive through the plains 
 of Indoftan. Fertile provinces have been /\ 
 laid wafte; wars have been unneceffarily 
 
 wsged ; .
 
 C 6 ] 
 
 waged ; and though we have concluded a 
 peace with the Marattas, yet this, in facl, 
 leads us to a new war. The treaty between 
 the EnglHh and Marattas having for its ob- 
 jecls the conqueil and partition of Tippoo 
 Saib's dominions, may involve us in endlefs 
 difputes. In fhorr, continued his LorduYip* 
 wherever I turn my attention,! find very dif- 
 fident reafons for giving my dipport to the 
 prefent bill, from the confufedand diftrefled 
 Hate of the Eaft-India Company's affairs. 
 
 Lord Thurlow obferved, that the noble 
 and learned Lord had not yet given any fo- 
 lution to his difficulties. I alk the noble 
 and learned Lord if he can reconcile the 
 principle of the prefent bill to the principles 
 of the Britim conftitution, admitting even 
 what we have as yet not the fmalleft cauie 
 to admit, that the neceffity of an immediate 
 interference by Parliament is apparent. The 
 noble and learned Lord fills fo high an 
 office in two of his Majefty's courts, that I 
 fhould naturally expeft to fee him the cham- 
 pion of our glorious conlHtution. It is 
 
 not
 
 I 7 J 
 
 not fitting that fo great a character mould 
 meddle in the dirty pool of politics. The 
 prefent bill means evidently to create a 
 power which is unknown to the conftitu- 
 tion. An impenum in imper\o\ but as I 
 abhor tyranny in all its fhapes, 1 fliall op- 
 pofe mofb ftrenuoufly this ftrange attempt 
 to deftroy the true balance of our confti- 
 tution. The prefent bill does not tend to 
 increafe the influence of the Crown ; but 
 it tends to fet up a power in the kingdom 
 which may be ufed in opposition to the 
 Crown, and to the deftrucTion of the li- 
 berties of the people. I wifh to fee the 
 Crown great and refpectable; but if the 
 prefent bill mould paf^ it will be no longer 
 worthy of a man of honour to wear. The 
 King will, in fact, take the diadem from 
 his own head, and place it on the head of 
 Mr. Fox. Your Lordmips have heard 
 much of the Ninth Report'of the Select Com- 
 mittee. That extraordinary performance 
 has been in every body's hands. 
 The ingenious author ftates, that " The 
 H Eaft- India Company is in pofleffion of a 
 
 " vaft
 
 [0 T 
 o 
 J 
 
 " vaft empire, with fuch a boundlefs pa- 
 " tronage, civil, military, marine, com- 
 " mercial, and financial, in every depatt- 
 " ment of which fuch fortunes have been 
 * 4 made as could be made no where elfe.'* 
 This, my Lords, is the true defcription of 
 that vaft and boundlefs patronage, which 
 this bill means to throw into the hands of 
 the Minifter of the prefent day : I fpeak the 
 language of the late Marquis of Rocking* 
 ham, for whom J had the higheft refpect 
 and regard, and to vyhom I have been much 
 obliged, when I fay, that every Minifter of 
 this country will naturally ftrengthen his 
 party by increafing his friends, and difpofing 
 of every office of honour or of emolument 
 amongft thofe who will fupport his mea- 
 iures ; with this explanation of the fyftem 
 on which the prefent Minifters acl, and 
 indeed in which all Minifters muft acl, let 
 me conjure your Lordfhips to weigh well 
 the cpnfeciuences which will refult to the 
 conftitution of this country, mould the 
 prefent bill pafs into a law. By the funda- 
 mental principles of this conftitution, the 
 
 executive
 
 [ 9 ] 
 
 executive power of the State is placed in the 
 hands of the Crown. We have heard much, 
 my Lords, of late years, of the alarming 
 increafe of the influence of the Crown, I 
 will candidly confefs to your Lordfhips, 
 that I have never feen the influence of the 
 Crown too great. I wifli to fee the Crown 
 great and refpettable ; and if the boundlefs 
 patronage of the Eaft muft be taken from 
 the Company, if regulations wifely adopt- 
 ed, and fteadily enforced, will not be fuf- 
 ficient to remedy exifting evils, let the 
 boundlefs patronage of the Eaft be placed 
 where only, with fafety to the conftitu- 
 tion of this country it can be placed ; in 
 the hands of the executive government. 
 In the laft year we palled an act to prevent 
 contractors from fitting in Parliament ; but 
 by the prefent bill, Mr. Fox's contractors 
 do not even vacate their feats. Such is 
 the diftinction between the Crown and a 
 fubject. 
 
 In the laft year we paffed an act to pre- 
 vent Cuftom-houfe officers from voting for 
 C mem-
 
 [ 16 ] 
 
 members of Parliament, fo cautious were 
 we to preferve the purity of the Houfe of 
 Commons, and to diminim the influence of 
 the Crown ; but in defiance of every prin- 
 ciple which was then profefled, no jealoufy 
 is expreffed of the man who is to have in 
 his pofleffion the boundlefs patronage of the 
 Eaft. The doctrine advanced by the noble 
 and learned Lord, is indeed extraordinary. 
 He tells you that the aft of 1/73, was an 
 infringement of the charter of the Eaft 
 India Company, but that his objection was, 
 that it did not go far enough ; and therefore 
 he would totally deftroy the charter. 
 The noble and learned Lord will recollect 
 the doctrine of the King's Attorney-Gene- 
 ral, Sir Robert Sawyer, in the unconftitu- 
 tional and infamous reign of Charles the 
 lid. as detailed to us in that minifterial 
 Gazette, that receptacle of all true intelli- 
 gence, Mr. Woodfall's paper. Yet, my 
 Lords, how was the doctrine of Sir Robert 
 Sawyer reprobated by the Attorney-Gene- ' 
 ral of that day ? The charter of the city of 
 London was taken away, not becaufe ac- 
 cording
 
 ( II ) 
 
 cording to Sir Robert Sawyer's opinion, it 
 was for their good, but becaufe the court 
 was induced to declare it Ifad been forfeited. 
 At the Revolution, however, it was reftored, 
 and the ftrongeft marks of abhorrence were 
 expreffed at fo atrocious a deed, perpetrated 
 under the femblance of juftice. But be- 
 fore the Houfe can confider this very im- 
 portant bill on that ground, to which every 
 Englifhman muft naturally objedfc to it, that 
 it is direclly fubverfive of our venerable 
 conftitution ; and on that ground 1 challenge 
 the noble and learned Lord to meet my ar- 
 gument fully and fairly, it will be neceffary 
 to confider the Teal ftate of the Eaft India 
 Company. Let us not be mifled by re- 
 ports from Committees of another Hbufe, to 
 which, I again repeat, I piy as much at- 
 tention as I would do to the hiftory of Ro- 
 binfon Crufoe. Let the conduct of the 
 Eaft India Company be fairly and fully en- 
 quired into ; let it be acquitted or condemned 
 by evidence brought to the Bar of the Houfe. 
 Without entering very deep into the fub- 
 jecl, let me reply, in a few words, to an 
 C 2 obfer-
 
 C i* ) 
 
 obfervation which fell from a noble and learn- 
 ed Lord, that the Company's finances are dif- 
 trefled, and that they owe, at this moment, a 
 million fterl'ing to the nation. When fuch a 
 charge is brought, will Parliament, in its 
 juftice, forget that the Company is reftricl:- 
 ed from employing that credit, which its 
 great and flouriming iituation gives to it? 
 Will Parliament, in its juftice, forget that 
 all the bill-holders of the Company are 
 willing to extend the period of payment ? 
 Will Parliament, in its juftice, forget that 
 fo high is the credit of this Company, that 
 if the reftridYions were taken off to-morrow 
 morning, every demand due to the State 
 would be difcharged ? Will Parliament, 
 in its juftice, forget that not all the wifdom 
 of his Majefty's councils, nor the united 
 wifdom of this country, has prevented us 
 from being involved in a long, a dangerous, 
 and an expenfive war ? Will Parliament, 
 in its juftice, forget, that though we have 
 met with lofs, misfortune, and difgrace, in 
 every other quarter of the globe, this delin- 
 quent Eaft India Company has furmounted 
 
 the
 
 ( '3 ) 
 
 the moft aftonifhing difficulties in India ? 
 Will the juftice of Parliament forget, that 
 when peace was at laft reftored to this un- 
 fortunate country, the conquefts of this de- 
 linquent Company were given up to pre- 
 vent farther facrifices in the Weft ? Will 
 Parliament, in its juftice, forget that this 
 delinquent Company, by the additional ex- 
 pence of freight, or captures at fea, has fuf- / 
 tained a lofs of two millions, feven hundred 
 thoufand pounds, in confequence of our na- 
 tional war? Will Parliament, in its juftice, 
 forget, that when this country has encreafed 
 its debt above one hundred millions fterling, 
 this delinquent Company wants but a little 
 time to pay all it owes to the Exchequer, 
 or privilege to ufe its flowing credit ? Will 
 Parliament, in its juftice forget that at a 
 former period, when its commerce was cir- 
 cumfcribed, when it had not an empire to 
 fupport, this delinquent Company was al- 
 lowed to iflue bonds to the amount of three 
 millions Jfterling, though now limited, at 
 the clofe of an extenlive and calamitous 
 war, to the fum of fifteen hundred thoufand 
 
 pounds ?
 
 ( '4 ) 
 
 pounds ? Thefe are circumftances which 
 muft be recollected, when we mean to vio- 
 late private property an injury which muft 
 cut every Englifhman to the bone, and which 
 nothing but the ilrongeft neceffity, fully 
 and fairly proved, can ever juftify. The 
 noble and learned Lord has mentioned the 
 depopulation of fertile provinces in India, 
 the expulfion of a king from his palace, 
 and the cruelties exercifed upon an old wo- 
 man. Thefe, my Lords, are founding 
 words, but I call upon the noble and 
 
 >\ learned Lord to prove the facts. It 
 is fomething fingular, that when the 
 character of Mr. Haftings is thus held up 
 to 'public deteftation, his name mould be 
 cautioufly fuppreflTed. Whence, my Lords, 
 this remarkable degree of delicacy towards 
 Mr. Haftings ? If he is a defolator of pro- 
 vinces ; if he is a plunderer, and an enemy 
 to the human race, let him be punifhed for 
 
 j his crimes, but let the fads be proved. The 
 
 V little, low, dirty attempts of malice and 
 
 faction, which have long been employed to 
 
 dcftroy the character of that great man (as 
 
 i
 
 I think him) can have no weight with your 
 Lordfhips. How induftrioufly, my Lords, 
 has every tranfaction of Mr. Haftings*;: 
 long government, that could tend to cri- 
 minate him, been circulated ? The reports 
 of a Committee have been fold as pam- 
 phlets. The ingenuity of fome men, the in- 
 duftry and the warm imagination of others, 
 have been long employed to fully the well 
 earned reputation of Mr. Haftings. To 
 my mind, my Lords, Mr. Haftings is one 
 of the moft extraordinary characters that 
 this country has ever produced. He has 
 ferved the Eaft-lndia Company thirty three 
 years in the moft important iituations, 
 twelve years as Governor, or Governor- 
 General of Bengal. He is a man, my 
 Lords, whofe integrity, whofe honour, 
 whofe firmnefs of mind, and whofe perfe- 
 verance, are not only very generally ac- 
 knowledged in this kingdom, and in Afia, 
 but throughout the continent of Europe. 
 He is a man, my Lords, who poflefles a 
 moft extenlive knowledge of the languages, 
 the politics, the cuftoms, and the revenues 
 
 of
 
 C J 
 
 of Hindoftan. He is a man, my Lords, 
 who infufed the fpirit which animated 
 his own mind, and rofe fuperior to the 
 aftonifhing difficulties he had to encounter 
 into the breafts of our brave and intrepid 
 countrymen, who have fo nobly diftin- 
 guilhed themfelves in Alia. Mr. Haftings 
 is a man, my Lords, who has re-eftablifhed 
 peace in India, who furnifhed refources for 
 the war while it lafted, by an increafe of 
 revenue in Bengal, and has preferved the 
 provinces under his more immediate con- 
 trol in peace and tranquillity. Mr. Haf- 
 tings is a man, my Lords, who has held a 
 bold and confident language throughout. 
 When the Government of this country fent 
 three men to thwart and to oppofe all his 
 meafures, he defired either to be recalled or 
 confirmed. Would to God thofe men had 
 never arrived there. When I confider the 
 fcene of confufion thatenfued, the factious, 
 perfonal, and party fpirit, by which they 
 were actuated from the very hour of their 
 landing, I am aftonifhed that Mr. Haftings 
 has been able to furmount fo arduous a trial. 
 
 What
 
 C i'7 1 
 
 What have been the means, my Lords, to 
 which Mr. Haftings has had recourfe to pre- 
 ferve his power ? Has he employed the low 
 and dirty arts of intrigue, which have here- 
 tofore been praclifed ? 
 
 No, my Lords, he has been fupported by 
 the voice of the public by great and me- 
 ritorious actions ! This being my opinion 
 of Mr.-Haftihgs, I fhall fupport him until 
 evidence of his delinquency mail be produ- 
 ced. Whence, my Lords, this extreme de- 
 fire to avoid a full and pure difcuffion of 
 this queftion ? I again repeat it ; if Mr. 
 Haftings is guilty, recall him, punifh him ; 
 but do not, my Lords, let us be deluded 
 by tales fabricated for the purpofe of the 
 hour, and circulated with a degree of in- 
 duftry which difgraces the honour and dig- 
 nity of the Britifli nation. I cannot help 
 adding, my Lords, that to my mind the 
 late difpatches from India contain fuch con- 
 vincing proofs of the vigour of our Go- 
 vernment in Bengal, of the regulations 
 formed for- the collection of the revenues, 
 D and
 
 t '8 J 
 
 and the admimftration of juftice throughout' 
 the provinces, added to the oeconomical ar- 
 rangements formed in the civil and military 
 departments, that I do believe it will not be 
 in the power of any clerk in office, that 
 Mr. Fox's Directors may fend out, to throw 
 Bengal into confufion again in lefs than two 
 or three years. 
 
 Lord Townfhend then obferved, that 
 the queftion then before their Lordfhips 
 was undoubtedly of the utmoft impor- 
 tance. The meafure was bold and rapid; 
 for his part, his Lordfhip faid, he loved 
 bold and rapid meafures, when the necef- 
 lity for fuch meafure was evident. He 
 conjured their Lordfhips to confider the 
 ftate of the Eaft-India Company's affairs 
 both at home and abroad, and that they 
 would refift every attempt to create an un- 
 neceflary delay. 
 
 Lord Temple obferved, that he did not 
 mean to protract or to delay the confidera- 
 
 tion
 
 C '9 J . . 
 
 tion of the prefent bill: he trufted, indeed, 
 that a bill fo dangerous in its principle, fo 
 fubverfive of the conftitution, could never 
 pafs that Houfe. The papers his Lord- 
 fhip meant to move for, were abfolutely 
 neceffary, provided the bill was to come 
 under their Lordfhips' conlideration. 
 
 Lord Townfhend rofe to difavow any 
 reflexion upon the laft noble fpeaker, in 
 
 what he had faid. 
 
 _'i\ , p , 
 
 The Earl of Derby exprefled his perfect 
 acquiefcence in the opinion of the noble 
 Lord (Thurlow :) his Lordfhip faid, it 
 would be impoflible to determine upon the 
 juftice and injuftice of the prefent meafure, 
 without going very fully into the conduct 
 of the Company, and its chief fervant, 
 Mr. Haftings. This, his Lordfbip pledged 
 himfelf to the Houfe, he would do on a 
 future day. 
 
 Lord Loiighborough then rofe arid ob- 
 ferved, that as there was, in fat, no quef- 
 
 2 tion
 
 [ * 3 
 
 tion before the Houfe, he mu ft apologize 
 to their Lordmips for taking up a few 
 minutes of their time, in reply to what 
 fell from the noble and learned Lord. With 
 refpect to what the learned Lord had faid 
 of Mr. Haflings, he begged to obferve, 
 that he meant neither to difpute nor to 
 cement, the very warm eulogium he had 
 patted upon that gentleman. Indeed he 
 thought the merits or demerits of Mr. Haf- 
 tings, made no part of the prefent bufmefs: 
 it was a defective fyftem that he wifhed to 
 correct ; and Mr. Haftings himfelf had 
 complained that the prefent fyftem was de- 
 fective. His Lordmip declared, that he 
 wifhed, therefore, to put Mr. Haftings en- 
 tirely out of the queftion in the difciiffion. 
 of the prefent bufinefs. He trufted the 
 learned Lord would thank him for giving 
 him an opportunity of explaining a very 
 harfh expreffion which he had ufed. The 
 late Sir John Clavering and Colonel Mon- 
 fbn were men of as ftrict integrity, and as 
 high a fenfe of their honour, as this coun- 
 try had ever produced. They had facri- 
 
 ficed
 
 ficed their lives in the public fervice ; and, 
 iurely, when their names were mentioned, 
 it fhould only be with that degree of re- 
 fpeft. which is due to their great and exal- 
 ted characters. With refpeft to the gentle- 
 man (Mr. Francis) who had returned to 
 this country, he believed his abilities were 
 univerfally allowed ; nor had his Lordfhip 
 ever heard the fmallefr reflection caft upon 
 his integrity, or honourable conduct, from 
 the time he went abroad until he returned. 
 Thefe three gentlemen' were fent to Bengal; 
 Mr. Haftings and Mr. Harwell, who then 
 flood high in the opinion of his Majefty's 
 Minifters, were a'fibciated with them in the 
 government, becaufe it was neceffary that 
 fome of the old fervants of the Company 
 fhonld have a (hare in the adminiftration of 
 their affairs. Difputes unfortunately broke 
 out ; and from a variety of caufes, needlefs 
 now to relate, though both parties certainly 
 called for a decilive determination on the 
 fubjeft of thofe difputes, none were ever 
 fent, This, however, his Lordfhip ob- 
 ierved, is foreign to the fnbject before the 
 
 Houfe.
 
 Houfe. With refpeft to the production of 
 farther papers, the neceffity did not then 
 Ifoike him. His Lordfhip faid, that the 
 bufinefs of India, for the laft ten years, 
 was as well known as the campaigns of the 
 Duke of Marlborough. Every bookfeller's 
 (hop was full of India trails; and the Houfe 
 was certainly as competent to judge now, 
 as they could be ten months hence, of the 
 propriety or impropriety of the prefent 
 bill. With refpedl to the doctrine adopted 
 by Sir Robert Sawyer, in the reign of 
 Charles the Second, he could allure the 
 learned Lord, that he entertained as ftrong 
 fentiments of abhorrence for fuch a doc- 
 trine, as the noble and learned Lord could 
 do. 
 
 Lord Thurlow. I am much obliged to 
 the noble and learned Lord for the oppor- 
 tunity he has given me for retracting an 
 hafty and intemperate expreffion. 1 do 
 not, however, feel myfelf at all inclined 
 to retract: it : your Lordfhips know per- 
 fectly well, that I was not fpeaking of the 
 
 gentle-
 
 C 2 3 J - 
 
 gentlemen who are deceafed as private cha- 
 racters. In that view I go along with the 
 noble and learned Lord moft fincerely ; but 
 fpeaking of them as public men, I fay their 
 arrival in India was a public misfortune, 
 and would to God they had not arrived 
 there ! If I wanted a convincing proof of 
 the juftice of my former fentiments, the 
 noble and learned Lord has given me one. 
 He tells your Lordmips that thefe gentle- 
 men were fent to India ; and that Mr. * 
 Haft ings and Mr. Harwell were aflbciated 
 with them, becaufe it was neceflary to em- 
 ploy fome perfons of experience in the 
 Company's affairs. Thefe three gentle- 
 men, by the learned Lord's confeffion, 
 went out as a party from this country ; and 
 as a party they acled, from the very day, 
 from the very hour of their landing in 
 Bengal. It is the confequences which re- 
 fulted from a fyftematic oppofition to the 
 government of Mr t Haftings that I deplore. 
 It was that fyftematic oppofition which 
 has prevented this country from benefiting, 
 as it would otherwife have done, by the 
 
 great
 
 great and fplendid talents of Mr. Haftings ; 
 and I am aftonifhed how the fuperior mind 
 ev r en of that great man, has been able to 
 bear up againft the attempts of malice, 
 party, and faction, fo induftrioufly excited 
 to difgrace him for the laft eight years, of 
 his life. The noble and learned, Lord de- 
 clares, that the merits and demerits of Mr. 
 Haftings are not to be included in the dif- 
 cuffion of the prefent bill. Good God, 
 my Lords, what language is this ? The 
 learned Lord defcribed the confequences of 
 various ats, of which Mr. Haftings is faid 
 to be the author; and fhall we fhrink from, 
 or blink the fair queftion ? Let Mr. Haf- 
 tings rife or fall by his merits : it is im- 
 poffible to avoid a full difcuflion of his 
 conduct, and of the Company's manage- 
 ment. Has it yet been proved, my Lords, 
 that diforders of an alarming magnitude 
 prevail in India r The Eaft-India Company 
 declare, that by the exertions of their fer- 
 vants abroad, and their Directors at home, 
 they have repelled the efforts of all their 
 enemies to fubdue them ; and that the cala- 
 mities,
 
 [ '5 
 
 mities which have happened, Unfortunate 
 and diftreffing as they are undoubtedly, are 
 infeparable from a ftate of war. Shall we^ 
 my Lords, be borne down by the tide of 
 fadYion, party, or felf-intereft ? Let us 
 firft prove the extent of the evil, and then 
 it will be time enough to confider the na- 
 ture of the mode propofed for the preven- 
 tion of fuch an evil in future. I will not 
 do fo great an injuftice to the character of 
 the noble Duke, as to fuppofe, for a mo- 
 ment, that his Grace is capable of adopting 
 that line of conduct now, which he fo fe- 
 verely reprobated in Minifters on a former 
 occafion. The noble Duke will, doubt- 
 lefs, be defirous of tranfmitting his name 
 with honour to pofterity ; and whatever 
 may be the opinion of other noble Lords, 
 his Grace, I am fure, will co-operate cor- 
 dially in giving the prefent fubjecl: a full, a 
 liberal, and a free difcuffion. 
 
 The Duke of Richmond, in very fevere 
 
 and pointed terms, condemned the prefent 
 
 bill. His Grace contended that it was the 
 
 '"*** E unhappy
 
 t *6 J 
 
 unhappy interference of MInifters which 
 had produced the prefent mifchiefs. The 
 Company, when left to itfelf, was great 
 and flourifhing ; and the advice he former- 
 ly gave regarding the curfed American war, 
 he would give upon the prefent meafure 
 Begin by undoing all you have done, and 
 leave -the Company to themfelves. His 
 Grace then lamented the fatal Coalition 
 which had taken place fome months ago - 
 To that he attributed the prefent unconfti- 
 x tutional meafure That baneful Coalition, 
 lie faid, had induced ^many very worthy 
 men to believe that there was not a grain 
 of public virtue in the nation ; and furely 
 the prefent meafure would tend moft ftrong- 
 ly to confirm that opinion. His Grace then 
 adverted to the line which the Duke of 
 Portland had taken in 1773, when a mea- 
 fure of a very inferior degree of atrocity 
 indeed was propofed by the Minifters of 
 that day. How was it poffible he could fup~ 
 port fuch a meafure without a facrifice of 
 every principle he had formerly profefled ? 
 One of thefe three confequences muft refult, 
 
 as
 
 as his Grace obferved, from the unnatural 
 Coalition The Duke of Portland mull 
 give up his principles to Lord North, or 
 Lord North muft yield his to the Duke of 
 Portland s or both muft facrifice their prin- 
 ciples to their intereft. His Grace profef- 
 fed his high opinion of the honour of the 
 Duke of Portland ; but he had been mifled 
 and deceived by his hireling dependants, 
 otherwife it was impoffible he could now 
 fupport a fyftem which he had formerly 
 condemned in fuch ftrong terms. 
 
 The Duke of Portland rofe, and, with J 
 warmth and energy, denied that he had 
 changed his principles ; he ftill adhered to 
 them, and fubkribed moft heartily to the 
 fentiments of the protefts which he had 
 figned in 1773. Circumftances however V 
 had changed and the prefent bill was ne- 
 ceflary, in order to fave the Eaft-India v 
 Company and the nation from ruin -- Such 
 was the lituation of the Company, that 
 fomething muft be done. He defired the 
 noble Duke, before he made fuch reflec^ 
 E 2 tions
 
 tions on his conduct, to confider ferioufly 
 the ftate of the country at the time the 
 Coalition took place What would have 
 been the confequence if that event had not 
 been brought about, no man would ven- 
 ture to fay. 
 
 
 
 The Duke of Richmond again rofe, to 
 reply to the obfervations of the noble Duke. 
 He totally denied the exiftenceof fuch a ne- 
 ceffity now, or, indeed, that fuch a necef- 
 iity fhould ever exift, as would compel the 
 Legiflature of this country to deftroy the 
 rights of their fellow fub}efts without even 
 an enquiry. He lamented that his Grace 
 had fo entirely changed his principles. 
 The Duke then read from a paper, the fe- 
 veral motions which had been made for pa- 
 pers by his Grace in the year 1773; and 
 he proved that his Grace now held that 
 language which he had formerly condemn- 
 ed. A perufal of the proteft which the 
 Duke of Portland had formerly figned, was 
 a pledge to pofterity of his principles. If 
 he now altered his opinion, pofterity would 
 
 judge
 
 L *9 ] 
 
 judge of the motives for fnch a. conduct. 
 The Duke of Richmond faid he gloried in 
 having ligned that proteft : he faid he 
 fhould a6t with confiftency on this, and, he 
 hoped, on every other occafion. The bane- 
 ful fyftem which he had reprobated in 1 773, 
 he fhould firmly oppofe in 1783. For his 
 part, he neither wifhed the Crown nor the 
 Minifter to poffefs the boundlefs patronage 
 of the Eaft : but of this he was fure, that 
 the prefent bill militated againft every princi- 
 pie of the Conftitution. The arguments 
 adduced, both within doors and without, to 
 juftify the meafure, were indeed moft cu- 
 rious ; becaufe Lord North very unjufti- 
 iiably enjoyed a fmall part of the patronage 
 of the Eaft in fecret, we will therefore give 
 the Minifter the whole in the face of day. 
 His Grace then went fully into Lord 
 North's management of the Eaft - India / 
 
 Company, through his fecretary, Mr. Ro- 
 binfon : he faid, Lord North had nomi- 
 nated Directors in many inftanccs, and all 
 the evil that had happened was owing to 
 his interference That unhappy man, con- 
 tinued
 
 - [ 3 1 
 
 tinned his Grace, was furely born to be the 
 t, ruin of this country To him we owe 
 the American war r-^ To him we owe the 
 misfortunes of the Eaft-India Company * 
 That Company was great and flourishing 
 in 1773, when its constitution was broke 
 in upon From that time the Minifter is 
 refponiible for all that has happened. Ad-* 
 mitting, with the learned Lord, (Lough-, 
 borough) that Mr. Haft ings has been cul- 
 pable, how often and how earneftly has he 
 called upon Lord North to remove him, 
 if he difapproved of his conduct ? Admit- 
 ting, on the other hand, that Mr. Haf- 
 tings, under every obftruclion, has faved 
 India, and that there is a fair profpect of 
 peace and tranquillity in our porTeffions. ? 
 Lord North is refponfible for not having 
 decided between the contending parties ; fo 
 that in whatever light the fubjed is viewed, 
 
 it is to a want of vigour and refolution in 
 
 i 
 
 y the late Minifter, and to a defire of acqui- 
 ring patronage without refponfibility, that 
 the misfortunes in India have been owing, 
 vf he only remedy, his Grace added, which 
 
 promifes
 
 r 31 i 
 
 pfomifes to be fuccefsful, is, to free the 
 Company from the vexatious interference 
 of Minifters To prevent their relations 
 or their dependants from getting to India, 
 and they will foon extricate themfelves from 
 all their difficulties. 
 
 The Earl of Carlifle earneftly prefled 
 their Lordfhips to proceed on the impor* 
 tant bufinefs of India, with as much fpeed 
 as poffible. He defcribed the diftrefs of 
 the Company at home, and the confuGon 
 that reigned abroad, nearly in the fame 
 terms with Lord Loughborough ; and he 
 exprefled his firm conviclion, that nothing 
 but the interpofition of Parliament could 
 prevent this country from being deeply in-* 
 volved in the ruin of the Eaft>India Com- 
 pany. 
 
 Lord Sydney profefled his entire d'tf- 
 approbation of the principle of the bill* 
 It went, his Lordfhip faid, to the erec- 
 tion of an influence more dangerous than 
 the influence of the Crown, and was di- 
 
 reclly
 
 [ 3* 1 
 
 re&ly fubveriive of the conftitution. His 
 Lordfhip then adverted to a very extraor- 
 dinary language that had been uttered, that 
 this bill had paffed the Lower Houfe by a 
 very great majority, and therefore it came 
 \\ith additional ftrength to their Lordfhips. 
 He had fpent the greateft part of his life 
 in the Lower Houfe, and no man held 
 that Houfe in greater refpect than he did ; 
 but he begged their Lordfhips to recolleft, 
 that meafures which, in their confequences, 
 had ruined this nation, were carried by 
 a ftill greater majority than the prefent. 
 He alluded to- the progreffive fteps taken 
 in fupport of the curfed American war for 
 two years and upwards. After dwelling 
 upon this for fome time, with great force 
 of argument, his Lordfhip intreated the 
 Houfe not to be led away by majorities in 
 another Houfe, but to determine on the 
 only ground on which a meafure could 
 ftireiy be determined upon, its merits or 
 demerits. 
 
 Lord
 
 C 33 3 
 
 Lord Abingdon fpokc next, in a flile of 
 great warmth : he faid the bill deferved 
 every injurious epithet he could beftow 
 upon it ; that it was not only founded in 
 injuflice, and a public robbery, but a trea- 
 fonable bill, and whoever fupported fuch a 
 bill, was guilty of treafon to the conftitu- 
 tion. His Lordfhip was proceeding, when 
 Lord Townfhend called him to order. 
 Lord Abingdon contented himfelf with de- 
 claring he was not diforderly ; and that if 
 he was again called to order, he would 
 move to read the proteft figned by the 
 Puke of Portland in 17 73. 
 
 Earl Temple then moved for leave to 
 prefent a petition from the Eaft India Com- 
 pany. The petition was brought up and 
 read ; and the Houfe adjourned about half 
 an hour after eight o'clock. 
 
 MONDAY, December 15, 
 
 About three o'clock the Earl of Abing- 
 don rofe, and obferved that if the atten- 
 F dance
 
 [ 34 ] 
 
 of their Lordmips had been then 
 more numerous, 1 ' he fhou'ld : have fubmitted 
 to their confederation fonue remarks. and fub- 
 fequent propofitions relative to the Eaft-In* 
 dia bill, and .other points of great impor- 
 tance ; but he muft beg leave to defer thefe 
 until the houfe fhould become more filled. 
 
 Many Peers entering foon afterwards, 
 e 
 faid, 
 
 the Earl of Abingdon rofe again, and 
 
 ' 
 
 My Lords, the moment being now arri- 
 ved when we are called upon, not only by 
 the voice of the nation, but by the peculiar 
 chara&eriftic of this Houfe, the feelings of 
 our own honour, to exercife that function 
 which the Conilitution of the country hath 
 placed in us ; I mean, my Lords, that of 
 holding between the King and people the 
 balance of the State in the (bale of its gor 
 vernment ; or, as Charles the Firft ufed to 
 exprefs it, " of bei^g that excellent fcreen 
 between the Prince and the people, to affifl 
 each againil the encroachments of the other.'* 
 
 it
 
 t 35 ] 
 
 It is therefore that I rife, and before any 
 other proceedings are had upon the bill that 
 is now before us", for " vefting the affairs 
 of the Eaft-India Company in the hands 
 of certain Directors," to trouble your Lord- 
 fhips with a very few word?, as introduc- 
 tory to a motion which I mean to have 
 the honour of fubmitting to your Lord- 
 fhips* confideration. 
 
 My Lords, the bill before us, " for 
 ". vefting the affairs of the Eaft-India Com- 
 ** pany in the hands of certain Directors,'* 
 is, in a threefold manner, now under the 
 contemplation of this Houfe; and it is fo, 
 my Lords, firft, in addrefs and appeal to" 
 us in our legiflative capacities, in common 4 
 with the two other branches of the legif- 
 lature. 
 
 Secondly, in addrefs and appeal to us as" 
 the Supreme Court of Judicature, or der- 
 nier refort of juftice, diftincl: from the twa 
 other branches of the legiflature, and ap* 
 pertaining to ourfelves. 
 F A
 
 t 36 I 
 
 And, thirdly, my Lords, in that caps* 
 city, in that peculiar and diftinguifhed ca-* 
 pacity to which I have juft alluded, the 
 capacity of being the mediator between the 
 King and the people, and of rendering- juf- 
 tice to both, by oppofing as well the en* 
 croachments of the Crown upon the liber- 
 ties of the fubjeft, as the encroachments 
 of the fubjeft upon the juft prerogative of 
 the Crown. 
 
 Of the two former, my Lords, our Ie- 
 giflative and judiciary capacities, and our 
 duties therein upon this occafion, I (hall 
 not now take up any of your Lordfhips* 
 time, nor, I truft, (hall I have any future 
 oecafion to do fo ; but it is to the third, 
 our mediation between the Crown and its 
 fubje&s, grounded upon the prefent necef- 
 fity of our interference, that at this mo- 
 ment leads me to call for your Lordfhips* 
 attention. 
 
 Of the bill, my Lords, of which I have 
 fpoken, your Lordfhips having read it, it 
 
 is
 
 c si i 
 
 is tinneceflary for me to enter into the de- 
 tail of its particulars ; indeed it is not the 
 time for me to do fo, and I muft again 
 hope, that that time will never arrive. 
 But it is to its principle that I am now to 
 look; and, in fo doing, enough and enough 
 remains to occupy the deepeft and moft fo- 
 lemn reflections of this Houfe; for, in this 
 view of the bill, what is it that your Lord- 
 (hips have to fee, hut a bill that has for its 
 fubject-matter, proportions as fatal to the 
 juft prerogative of the Crown, by their 
 adoption, as by their effects they will be 
 found ruinous to, and fubverfive of the 
 rights, liberties, and properties of the fub- 
 jeh Proportions, as unique in them- 
 felves, as they are unmatched in the annals 
 of our hiftory* Proportions, big with 
 ambition, with ambition no lefs violent 
 than that which filled the mind of Crom- 
 well, and brought the head of Charles the 
 Firft to the block. No lefs violent did I 
 fay, my Lords? Ten times more violent, 
 more daring, more enterprifing ! For, in 
 the cafe of that Cromwell, be had fome 
 
 ground 
 
 354739
 
 [ 33 ] 
 
 grftund tc? ftand upon, he had arguments 
 to offer, he had reafons to affign, he hadj 
 at leaft, that plea of tyrants, the plea of 
 jecelTity for what he did ; for, in the words 
 of Lord Bolingbroke, he had this to fay, 
 either that " Charles the Firft muft lofe 
 *' his head, or England lofe its liberties." 
 
 But in the cafe of the Cromwell of this 
 bill, what has he to urge for that which 
 he has done ? What ground has he to ftand 
 upon, what arguments to offer, what rea- 
 fons to affign, what plea of neceffity to 
 \f Hate I A plea of neceffity, it is true, he had: 
 he ftated to the Houfe of Commons, that 
 the Eaft-India Company was bankrupt ; it 
 vv was falfe in ftatement, it was falfe in proof. 
 But I admit the truth of both; and yet, 
 whence arofe the neceflity of fubverting the 
 conftitution of this country, by placing the 
 
 J executive power of Government in the 
 hands of a mountebank Secretary of State? 
 A Secretary of State who does not fhrink 
 back from declaring, that he is not the 
 King's Minifter, but the Minifter of the 
 
 / People ;-
 
 JPeople ; who glories in the 
 who fortifiei himfelf under it in the Houfe 
 in which he ads. And ytt, my Lords, no 
 more the Minifter of the People, than P 
 the friend of his politics: The Minifter, 
 it is true, of a corrupt majority of the 
 Houfe of Common?, where the people 
 now arej as he fays; but not the Minifter 
 of the People, as when mounted on his 
 ftage at Covent-Garden, and in -Weftmin- 
 fter-Hall. 
 
 . ; I it^?y,\i < J mo <i i i 
 But, I fay, my Lords, whence arofe the 
 neceffity of this fubverfion of the Confti- 
 tution ? Whence arofe the neceffity of 
 erecting a new power in the State a mid- 
 dle power between the King and people, on 
 the one hand holding the King in chains, 
 and on the other ruling the people, through 
 the medium of a corrupt majority in Par- 
 liament, with a rod of iron? And yet, 
 my Lord?, this is the proportion / totidem. 
 verbis : a proportion to wreft the reins of 
 Government out of the hands of the execu- 
 tive power, and to place it in the Jiands O f 
 
 3 fclfV
 
 C 4 ] 
 
 a felf-created demagogue, fupported by a 
 factious and defperate cabal ; a propofition 
 therefore no lefs injurious to the people, 
 than at the fame tiiiie furnifhing the moft 
 direct attack upon Majefty that the annals 
 of our hiftory afford ; a propofition, as I 
 have faid, more daring even than that 
 which brought the head of Charles the 
 Firft to the block, becaufe lefs founded: a 
 propofition of ambition no lefs glaring, 
 but, I truft, my Lords, lefs hopeful, fo? 
 it is ours to prevent it, 
 
 But, my Lords, it has been faid of this 
 bill, on the one fide, that it will increafe 
 the influence of the Crown ; and it has 
 been cunningly and craftily not denied on 
 the other. But this is not the truth, my 
 Lords ; I deny the fact ; the reverfc is the 
 truth. This bill is not to increafe the in- 
 fluence of the Crown j it is. to deftroy it. 
 It is,. I admit, to obtain an influence ; but 
 an influence as poifonous to the juft influ- 
 ence and legal prerogative of the Crown, 
 as it is deadly to the rights and liberties of 
 the people.
 
 t 41 ] 
 
 And when I fay this, my Lords, let it 
 not be thought that I fpeak raihly and mi- 
 advifedly upon the fubjecl-, that I talk with- 
 out book, that I reafon without my hoft, 
 that I am unfupported in what I fay ; I 
 fpeak, my Lords, to the fenfe and know- 
 ledge of the Houfe ; for, my Lords, that 
 to pull down the influence of the Crown 
 has been the long unremitting endeavours 
 of the Minifter of the people and his Whig 
 connexions, as they are called, (for of his 
 Tory coalition I fhall prefendy fpeak) the 
 Houfe wants no information. The fads of 
 this fpeak for themfelves. We have feen 
 bills of Reform upon bills of Reform to this 
 end paffing into ads of the Legiflature ; 
 bills taking away from the fplendour of the 
 Crown, no lefs neceflary to Majefty than 
 the birthright of the Prince ; bills meanly 
 and ignominiouily defcending into the very 
 kitchen and cellar of the King, there to 
 retrench and deprive his Majefty of the 
 very comforts and provisions of his table. 
 Can it then, my Lords, even in fnppoiition, 
 J?c thought, that thofe who, have done this, 
 Q can
 
 [ 4* ] 
 
 can now have any view or intention tp 
 throw the wealth of the Eaft into the lap 
 of the Throne ? No, my Lords ; the very 
 fuppofition is abfurdity itfelf ; befides, the 
 bill ftates the contrary. For four years 
 certain, the Crown has nothing to do with 
 it ; and give me a leafe for four years of 
 fuch means of corruption as thefe are, and 
 I muft be, what the Minifter of the peo- 
 ple is not, a very filly fellow indeed, if I 
 don't purchafe a fee fimple in the premifes 
 A for ever after. 
 
 But this is not all, my Lords ; for let us 
 look for demon ftration upon this fubjecT: to 
 the tenets and principles of this party of 
 men. And in doing this, let us look to 
 their creed, in a well-known publication of 
 theirs, called " Thoughts on the prefent 
 Difcontents;" and then look to their prac- 
 tice upon that creed. Lock to their creed, 
 and there you will find, that whilft it pulls 
 the influence of the Crown down to the 
 ground, it fets up another influence ten 
 times more dangerous ten times more de- 
 
 ftrudlivc 
 
 J
 
 _.;;;,. ;;.;_, t 43 i .. 
 
 ftru&ive to the conftitution. The influ- 
 ence of an Ariftocracy, or to exprefs it in 
 their own words, the influence of connec- 
 tion; and of which this creed fpeaking, 
 fays, " In one of the moft fortunate peri- 
 " ods of our hiftory, this country was go- 
 " verned by a connection ; I mean the 
 " great connexion of Whigs in the reign 
 " of Queen Anne.'* Such is this influence, 
 my Lords. The influence of an Oligar- 
 chical junto in the two Houfes of Parlia- 
 ment, holding, as I have faid, the King 
 captive in the one hand, and with the other 
 ruling the people, not by the fundamental 
 laws of the land, but after the manner of 
 this bill, by laws " of mere political dif- 
 " cretion only," and fubveriive of their 
 rights, liberties, and properties. 
 
 But, my Lords, let us now look to 
 their practice upon this creed ; and here, I 
 am aware, I am anticipated by the Houfe, 
 and that the day which ftains, and will 
 continue everlaftingly to ftain the journals 
 of Parliament, I mean the I7th day of 
 G 2 Feb-
 
 [ 44 ] 
 
 February laft, is uppermoft in the thoughts, 
 and prefent to the minds of every one of 
 your Lordfhips. A day of connection, my 
 Lords, a day, when by an infamous and 
 wicked connexion of principles, not the 
 connection of idem fentire de republic^ 
 which alone is or can be the bafts of all 
 well intentioned political union-* but of the 
 moft jarring factions, a connexion which 
 one might have thought no chemiftry either 
 on earth or in heaven could ever have 
 brought together : I fay, my Lords, a day 
 when his Majefty was befieged in his Cabi- 
 net ; when he was told the appointment of 
 his own domeftic fervants did not lie in 
 him ; when his Majefty refifted ; but when 
 after a fix- weeks refiftance, with a fortitude 
 of mind that will add luftre to his reign, 
 he fell a victim to this connection. 
 
 And thus, my Lords, has the theory of 
 thefe politics been now reduced to practice ; 
 for fuch have been the effects of this con- 
 nection, which is now fought by this bill. 
 Not the influence of the King's Minifter 
 
 for
 
 [ 45 ]. 
 
 for the King, but of the King's Minifter 
 againft the King. Of the King's Minifter, 
 who, if this bill pafles, may fay to the 
 King, I am the Minifter of this country, 
 and let my conduct be what it will, let my 
 infults to you be what they may, it is not 
 in your power, it is what you dare not do, 
 it is not for you to remove me. 
 
 But, my Lords, that I may trefpafs no 
 longer on the time and patience of the 
 Houfe, the motion which 1 mall have the 
 honour to fubmit to your Lordfliips is 
 this : 
 
 That the Judges may be fnmmoned to 
 attend this Houfe, in order to give their 
 advice in point of law, upon the bill now 
 depending in Parliament " for vefting the 
 affairs of the Haft-India Company in the 
 hands of certain Directors," &c. 
 
 And here, my Lords, whilft, as the 
 ground of this motion, I take the li- 
 berty of ftating to your Lordmips the
 
 C 46 ] 
 
 queries, which (as neceffary to my informa- 
 tion at leaft) I (hall propound to the Judges 
 for their counfel and advice ; fo by this 
 motion, will an opportunity be afforded to 
 the Houfe, of having any other difficulties 
 refolved in point of law, which may occur 
 to any other individuals of your Lordfhips. 
 
 * 
 My Lords, the query is this : 
 
 Whether by the commiifion, as fet up in 
 the bill for vefting the affairs of the Eaft- 
 India Company in the hands of certain 
 directors, an executive power be not thereby 
 inftituted, new in the government, and un- 
 known to the conftitution of the country ; 
 and whether that executive power be not 
 as well derogatory to the Crown, and hurt- 
 ful to the juft, legal, and royal prerogative 
 of the King, as dangerous to the rights, 
 V liberties, and properties of the fubjedt ? 
 
 Now, my Lords, in putting this query 
 to the Judges, 1 find my fe If no lefs upheld 
 therein by the fpirit of the conftitution, 
 
 than
 
 [ 47 ] 
 
 than confirmed by the letter of the law ; 
 by the fpirit of the conftitution, my Lords, 
 as handed down to us by the very inge- 
 nious and learned author of the fpirit of 
 laws; who, fpeaking of the Englifh con- 
 ftitution, fays that the executive power 
 ought to be in the hands of a monarch : 
 becaufe this branch of government, which 
 has always need of expedition, is better 
 adminiftered by one than by many : whereas 
 whatever depends on the legiflative power 
 is oftentimes better regulated by many 
 than by a lingle perfon. Again : But if 
 there was no monarch, fays he, and the 
 executive power was committed to a 
 certain number of perfons {elected from 
 tjie legiflative body, there would be an end 
 of liberty ; by reafon the two powers would 
 be united, as the fame perfons would actu- 
 ally fometimes have, and would moreover 
 be always able to have, a fhare in both. 
 And as confirmed by the letter of the law, 
 in as much as, by the ftatute of the i6th 
 of Charles I. ch. J, a power being lodged 
 in the Chancellor (in cafe of the King's de- 
 fault)
 
 C 48 ] 
 
 fault) to call Parliaments ; and if he failed, 
 then in the Peers, or any twelve of them, 
 and if they failed, then in the Sheriffs; it 
 was faid by the Judges of thofe days, that 
 this was a direct breach of the original con- 
 ftitution; for it introduced into the monar- 
 chy a kind of republic, by fetting up a 
 fupreme power, befides the regal power, and 
 inconfiftent with it. Of the ftatute too of 
 the 1 5th of Charles I. chap. 5, whereby it 
 was enacted, that that Parliament then fitting 
 (hould not be diflblved, prorogued, or ad- 
 journed but by Ad of Parliament, it was 
 faid, that this was another breach of that 
 con ftitution, which had originally efta- 
 blifhed the King's prerogative in that par- 
 ticular ; and therefore thefe two ads were, 
 early in the next reign, repealed. 
 
 The fecond query is, 
 
 i 
 
 Whether the immediate creative aft of 
 sny charter of incorporation is not vefted 
 in the King by virtue of his royal preroga- 
 tive ? And if yes : Whether by the forfei- 
 ture
 
 t 49 } 
 
 tii re or diflblution of fuch charter, Its fran- 
 chifes are not revertible to the Crown, irt 
 order to be re-granted by the King if ne- 
 ceffary ? And if fo, Whether the commif- 
 lion of Directors appointed by this bill be 
 not an encroachment upon the royal prero- 
 gative of the Grown ? 
 
 Sir William Blackftone fpeaking of the 
 erecting of corporations by the King, as th 
 fountain of privilege, fays, " I now only 
 mention them incidently, in order to remark 
 the King's prerogative in making them ; 
 which is grounded upon this foundation, 
 that the King having the fole adminiflration 
 of the government in his hands, is the beft 
 and the only judge, in what capacities, with 
 what privileges, and under what diftincTions 
 his people are the beft qualified to ferve, 
 and to act under him." 
 
 The third query is, 
 
 Whether, confident with the judicial 
 capacity of this Houfe, the disfranchifing of 
 H a
 
 [ 5 ] 
 
 a corporation of fuch magnitude as that of 
 the Eaft- India Company, the reafons of 
 fuch disf ranch ifement ought not to be pro- 
 ved and fupported at the bar of the Houfe 
 by the ftrongeft and moft entire evidence ? 
 Or, whether confiftently with the duty of 
 this Houfe to the King, as the hereditary 
 Counfellors of the Crown, a bill creative of 
 a new executive power, in violation of the 
 royal prerogative, ought not to be rejected 
 in limlne upon its principle, and without 
 entering into the merits of it. 
 
 My Lords, when Charles IT. and James 
 II. feized upon the charters, which they 
 did for the purpofes of theftate, as they faid, 
 although, fays Sir William Blackftone, the 
 proceedings in moft of them were fufficiently 
 regular, it gave great and juft offence : But 
 it feems Charles James Fox can now of 
 himfelf attempt what thofe tyrants, neither 
 Charles nor James Stuart put together dared 
 .to do, feize upon charters by force and 
 violence. 
 
 The
 
 [ 5' ) 
 
 The fourth query is, 
 
 Whether if this bill (hould pafs both 
 Houfes of Parliament, encroaching as it 
 does upon the undoubted prerogative of the 
 Crown, it be not a right inherent in the 
 King, as well as a duty which he owes tp / 
 the country in prefervation of the conftitu- 
 tion, to put his negative upon fuch bill ?_ 
 
 Baron Montfequieu fays, " the executive 
 power ought to have a (hare in the legifla- 
 ture by the power of rejecting, otherwife 
 it would be foon flripped of its prerogative. 
 But fhould the legiilative power ufurp a 
 fhare of the excutive, the latter would be 
 equally undone." Again, " if the Prince," 
 fays he, " were to have a fhare in the legif- 
 lature by the power of refolving, liberty 
 would be loft. But as it is neceflary he 
 Ihould have a fhare in the legiflature for the 
 fupport of his own prerogative, this (hare 
 muft confift in the power of rejecting." 
 Sir William Blackitone, too, fays, " the 
 King is a conilituent part of the fupreme 
 H 2 legiilative
 
 [ 5* ] 
 
 legifbtive power ; and, as fuch, has the pre> 
 rogative of rejecting fuch provifions in Par? 
 ] lament, as he judges improper to be paf- 
 d." He fays, too, fpeaking of the ern 
 croachment of the legiflative upon the 
 executive power: " Thus the long Parlia-. 
 rhent cf Charles I. while it afted in a con- 
 Ititutional manner with the royal concur- 
 rence, redrefled many heavy grievances, and 
 eitablifhed many falutary laws : But when 
 the two Houfes alTumed the power of legif- 
 lation, in exclufion of the royal authority, 
 they foon after afTumed likewife the reins of 
 adminiftration ; and in confequence of thefe 
 united powers, overturned both church and 
 fbte, and eftablifhed a worfe oppreffion 
 than any they pretended to remedy. 
 
 And now, my J^ords, thefe being the 
 queries which it is my intention to iubmit 
 to the opinion of the judges, together with 
 my reafons for thefe queries, 1 (hall now 
 beg leave to add one reafon more for the 
 motion itfelf, of calling for the advice of 
 the judges VP on tn i occafion ; and it is 
 
 this,
 
 [ 53 ] 
 
 this, that, as if the opinion of the judges 
 had been taken upon the queftion of the 
 American war, before it was entered into, 
 that is, whether the Parliament of England 
 had a, right to levy taxes internally on 
 America, America not being reprefented 
 in the Parliament of England, that country 
 might at this time have been a part of 
 the Britim empire ; fo upon the fame ground 
 am I perfuaded that the putting of thefe 
 quenjons to the judges now, may be the 
 means of faving the Eaft Indies to this 
 country : For, my Lords, is it to be (up- 
 pofed, that the fervants of the Eaft-India 
 Company in India, connected as they are 
 in the intenrft with the Company here, 
 together with Mr. Raftings, at the head of 
 an hundred thoufand men there, will quietly 
 deliver up thofe pofleffions, when by that 
 delivery, they know that they are them- 
 felves to be difplaced, to make room for 
 others ; and if not difplaced, that they will 
 have members of Parliament, and members 
 jof Parliament's Ions and kindred riding 
 upon them four and five deep, and quartered 
 
 Upon
 
 [ 54 3 
 
 iipon their emoluments, as much without 
 number as without reafon. 
 
 And now, my Lords, I have done ; afk- 
 ing pardon of the Houfe for this long tref- 
 pafs on their patience, and, vvhilft fitting 
 down, not doubting but that your Lord- 
 fhips will think that a monopoly of power, 
 fuch as this bill requires, is not only unfit, 
 under any circumftances whatever, to be 
 had, but that if it were fit, to place it in 
 the hands of him who fecks it, would be as 
 \mfafe for, as dangerous to the conftitution 
 of the country, I fhall hope that the motion 
 which I (hall now have the honour to ftib- 
 mit to the Houfe, will meet with the con- 
 currence of your Lordfhips. 
 
 In tli at part of the fpeech where the 
 \vords Charles James Fox were introduced, 
 
 Lord Derby rofe, and called the noble 
 Lord to order. He faid it was unufual to 
 introduce the name of a member of the 
 Houfe of Commons into a debate. 
 
 When
 
 [ 55 ] 
 
 When the Order of the Day was called 
 for, 
 
 The Diike of Richmond called the at- 
 tention of their Lordfhips to a petition, 
 which he prefented from the city cf Lon- 
 don. It was conceived, his Grace obferved, 
 under the greateft apprehensions for their 
 franchifes, and expreffed in very ftrong lan- 
 guage. He therefore thought it (hould be 
 read. It was read accordingly. 
 
 T " ;? 
 
 The purport of the petition was, That 
 a bill pending before their Lordfhips, threat- 
 ened an extinction of their privileges, held 
 up an awful precedent of violated charter?, 
 and, by aiming at the conrlfcation of 
 public, menanced every fpecies of private 
 property. It therefore prayed, that fuch a 
 bill might not pafs into a law; that their 
 Lordihips would interfere and fave them 
 from the grafp of power, which, in this 
 inftance, appeared to them fo fingularly 
 dangerous and alarming. 
 
 The
 
 ( 56 ) 
 
 The Duke of Manchefter felt diflatisfi'ed 
 with fome of the expreffions in this petition. 
 They founded harfh to his ear ; they were, 
 m his mind, violent, and not fufficiently 
 guarded and decent for the occafion. Her 
 migh, however, have miftaken the literal 
 phrafeology. It feemed to him a very 
 ftrong accufation of the other Houfe, and he 
 was notfure how far it became one branch 
 of the Legiflatnre to differ an arraign- 
 ment of another at their Bar. He wifhed, 
 for thefe reafons, to read the petition to 
 their LorduYips, and was forry on having 
 done fo, to find his exceptions fo well 
 founded. 
 
 The Duke of Richmond was much fur* 
 prifed to hear fuch a language from his 
 Grace ; for the very words ufed by the city 
 of London on this occafion, were to be 
 found in a proteft on their Lordihips Jour- 
 nals, iigned by the names of Rockingham 
 and Portland ; and he little expected to hear 
 their mode of expreffion ceniured from fuch 
 a quarter. The petitions from America 
 
 had
 
 t 57 ] 
 
 had been reje&ed on iimilar grounds. Be- 
 fides, was it not the conftitution of this 
 country, that fubjects had a right to peti- 
 tion againft whatever they considered as a 
 grievance? No matter, faid his Grace, 
 who your petitioners are, whether corpo- 
 rate or not, or againft whom they com- 
 plain, whether againft the Minifter or the 
 Houfe of Commons ; the laws of the land 
 giv them a right to ftate their grievances 
 to your kordfhips; and your Lordfhips 
 \viil not accommodate your decifions ac- 
 cording to the fundamental principles of the 
 confLitution, if you dp not give them a 
 Bearing. 
 
 The Duke of Manchefter faid the noble 
 Duke certainly knew him too well to need 
 any explanation of his principles, or to 
 doubt of his conviction concerning the 
 people's right to petition Parliament. Nor 
 had he intimated any other objection than 
 what was fuggefted, not by the matter buf 
 by the manner of it. The noble Duke 
 Jaad alfo miftated the argument on which! 
 
 I tjie
 
 [ 58 ] 
 
 tlie American petition was thrown out. 
 For the Miniftry of that day infifted againft 
 admitting the petition, only becaufe no 
 Lord would pledge himfelf to the Houfe, 
 that it allowed the right of taxatiqn to the 
 Britifh Parliament. His Grace, however, 
 did riot chufe to infift on the validity of his 
 objection, and the petition was ordered to 
 lie on the table. 
 
 The Order of the Day was then called 
 for, and Mr. Rous and Mr. Dallas ap- 
 peared as Counfel for the Eaft-India Com- 
 pany ; Mr. Hardinge and Mr. Plomer as 
 Counfel for the Directors, 
 
 Mr. Rons opened the caufe of his clients 
 in a very mafterly manner. He ftated, in 
 very warm and expreffive language, the 
 enormity and the injuftice of the prefent 
 bill. He obferved that as there was no 
 fpecific charge brought againft his confti- 
 tuents, he would be under the neceffity of 
 proving their merits with the public by 
 eyiden.ce at the Bar of the Houfe, and to 
 
 prove
 
 [ 59 1 
 
 prove the a&ual fituacion of India* by the 
 laft advices. Under the firft head, Mr. 
 Rous ftated, that the additional cuftoms 
 paid by the Eaft-India Company, for fifteen 
 years, were the acquitments of the Devvan- 
 nee, and exceeded the fum of the fifteen years 
 antecedent -to that period, in the fum of 
 live millions fterling. That the fum paid 
 by the Company to the public, as their 
 participation of the territorial revenues, 
 was three millions fterling ; fo in facT: the 
 Company was, to this moment, a confi- 
 derable lofer by the territorial acquifitions^ 
 though the nation had been a gainer^ for 
 the funis expended by the Company in ac* 
 quiring thofe revenues, exceeded their re- 
 ceipts in the fum of five millions and up^ 
 wards. But the acquifition of the Dewan- 
 nee had, in every point of view, been a 
 moft important object to the Britifh nation. 
 Mr. Rous then Hated; that the exports 
 from this country fince-the territorial ac- 
 quifitions, had amounted laft June to 
 about five hundred thoufand pounds. He 
 next remarked upon the flourimmg ftate 
 
 I 2 Of
 
 C 6 j 
 
 of the Company's credit, and faid, that rf 
 Parliament would give them leave to bor- 
 row, their debt to the ft ate would inftant- 
 ly be paid off. The credit of the Com- 
 pany could only be deftroyed by the parting 
 of the prefent bill. Miv Rous then faid he 
 would bring evidence to prove, that in 
 Bengal, Bahar, Benares, and Glide, we 
 enjoyed profound peace, a firm govern- 
 ment, an encreafing revenue, and had ef- 
 fected a red lift ion of expences. The 
 Carnatic was evacuated. The account of 
 the peace had arrived in India, and all 
 hoftilities had ceafed between us and the 
 French, That peace was concluded on 
 fuch terms with the Marattas as muft make 
 it lafting ; and fuch was Tippoo Saib's fi- 
 tuation, that he had undoubtedly mads 
 peace with us, under the terms of the 
 Sixteenth Article of the Treaty of Peace. 
 Of this Mr. Rous faid he was fo confident, 
 that he would forfeit his head if it was not 
 the cafe. After dwelling very fully oft 
 thefe feveral head?, Mr. Rous proceeded to 
 
 call in witneffes. 
 
 The
 
 ." . '., [ 6. J 
 
 The evidence continued for feveral hours. 
 The charters, afts of Parliament, grants, 
 and other authentic documents of the Com- 
 pany's tenure and itate, were read. The 
 evidence was clafiTed under feparate heads, 
 and evidence, written and oral, brought to 
 each point. When the Counfel came tt> 
 propofe, to prove that peace was reftored 
 to the Canvtic, 
 
 Lord Loughborough rofe and faid, he 
 was perfectly fatisfied that their Lordfhips 
 would agree with him, that much of the 
 evidence which had been exhibited, was at 
 leaft irrelative and unapplicable to the na- 
 ture and tendency of the bill now under 
 the coniideration of the Houfe. The whole 
 hiftory of the Company's eftablifhment had 
 come to their Lord (hips' knowledge under 
 the fhape of evidence. But how would 
 fuch a complicated narrative make againft 
 the plan for re-eftablifhing the interefts of 
 the Company on a new and permanent 
 foundation ? What was proved by that 
 ftatement which their Lordfhips did not al-
 
 [ 62 j 
 
 ready know, or about which one noble 
 Lord in the Houfe entertained a fingle 
 doubt? Was any friend of this meafure in- 
 clined to call in queftion the Company's 
 right to their territorial pofleffioni in In- 
 dia ? To what purpofe then detain their 
 Lordfhips with a detail of their chartered 
 rights, and the variety of grants obtained 
 by them from feveral Indian powers ? Sure- 
 ly there was but little information in all 
 this ; and whatever it was, the Houfe feem- 
 ed but little difpofed to be benefited by it. 
 Still the fpecies of evidence on which Coun- 
 fel were now entering, feemed leaft of all 
 adapted to the bulinefs before the Houfe. 
 For what had the queftion in iflue to do 
 with the news of a peace eftablifhment in 
 the Carnatic ? It was, in his opinion, per- 
 fectly unnatural to the bill, whether there 
 were peace or war. It did not depend on 
 the prefent, but the paft. It was not fo 
 much what the Company is, as what the 
 Company has done, that furnilhed a plea 
 for fuch a bill, which therefore, if proper- 
 ly founded, could not be affected by any 
 
 fituation
 
 fituation of their affairs, however promising 
 or profperous. He had long waited for the 
 difcretion of Counfel ; but it did not ap- 
 pear, that they feemed inclined to come to 
 any precife conclufion on their evidence. 
 
 From thefe confiderations, he was fatif- 
 fied the very odd arrangement of evidence 
 which the Counfel for the Cbmpany had 
 thus fubmitted to their Lordfliips attention, 
 could ferve no other purpofe on earth than 
 to protract the bufinefs now under difcuffion. 
 And his Lordfhip begged leave to remind 
 their Lordfliips, that the time of the bill 
 was very precious, whether it fucceeded or 
 not. From the difpatches that might natu- 
 rally be expected to have been fent, the minds 
 of the people in the Indies would be full 
 of fufpenfe. Nothing would be done till 
 the plan under contemplation of Parliament 
 was either authenticated or rejected. An 
 end, we might well fuppofe, would for the 
 prefent be put to every kind of bufinefs 
 but he underftood from rumour, nay, he 
 Jiad been informed fo lince he came into the 
 
 Houfe,
 
 i[ 64 ] 
 
 Houfe, that Counfel had direclions to pro- 
 trad this bill as much as poffible. Upon 
 this principle it was, then, that he objected 
 to their being allowed to take up any more 
 of their Lordfhips' time ; for what they 
 proved, had nothing at all to do with the 
 bill: as far as he could judge, what they 
 were about to prove, was of as little con- 
 fequence ; they had already been indulged 
 to a great length, and he had waited, ex- 
 pecting their own understanding would 
 make them draw to a conclufion ; inftead 
 of which, he perceived, the more they were 
 indulged, the greater lengths they were de- 
 termined to proceed. Thofe who meant 
 to oppofe the bill, he found, were refolved 
 to protract it as long as poffible : but he 
 called upon their Lordfhips to remember the 
 neceffity of paffing it immediately, if it was 
 pafled at all ; for every gentleman knew, 
 that to procure a quick paffage to India, 
 they muft fail by the beginning of February 
 at the fartheft ; we were now far advanced 
 in December, and mould it be much longer 
 it would be impoffible for gentle- 
 men
 
 men who might be appointed to go out, in 
 confequence of another bill which was to 
 be brought up to their Lordfhips, to get 
 themfelves ready in time. It appeared, as 
 agreed on all hands, that fome regulations 
 ought to be adopted, and this appeared to 
 him, as it had been framed with the great- 
 eft care and attention, as fully adequate 
 to the tafk. Time prefled for its deter- 
 mination ; and therefore he trufted, that 
 thefe poor attempts to procraftinate the bu- y 
 finefs, would be treated by their Lordfhips 
 as they merited : in confidence of which, 
 he doubted not they would reftrain Coun- 
 fel from entering into a large field of exa- 
 mination and inveftigation, that could not 
 poffibly tend to any other end than to de- 
 lay and protract the reading of the bill. 
 He therefore conjured their Lordfhips to 
 reftricl: the evidence before them to the 
 point to be agitated'; and for this purpofe 
 he would move, that the Gounfel at the 
 bar be reftrained from adducing the evi- 
 dence of a peace being concluded in the 
 Carnatic. 
 
 K Lord
 
 [ 66. ] 
 
 Lord Tluirlow differed entirely with 
 the learned Lord, refpefting the evidence 
 that had already been produced. He con- 
 ceived the Counfel had acted with the 
 greateft propriety ; their clients had em- 
 ployed them, to do what ? only to ref- 
 cue them from a general imputation laid 
 again ft them in the bill, for it brought no 
 fpecific charge. How was it poflible for 
 them to defend themfelves, otherwife than 
 by producing, in the firft inftance, authen- 
 tic documents to their right, and after- 
 wards, by a fair ftatement of their tranfac- 
 tions and circumftances, to prove they had 
 not abnfed that right. He agreed with the 
 learned Lord, that fome part of the evidence 
 which had been produced at the bar might 
 as well have been omitted ; but he was far 
 from faying, that held good with regard 
 to the difpatches that were to prove that 
 peace was eftablifhed in India ; and for this 
 plain reafon the preamble of the bill 
 fbted, that by the mifmanagement of the 
 Company, they had brought themfelves 
 altnoft to a bankrupt ftate, and that it re- 
 quired
 
 [ 6; ] 
 
 quired the immediate interpolation of Go- 
 vernment to fave them from ruin. Now 
 if they couid adduce evidence to prove they 
 had not mifmanaged, but that their finances 
 here were not defpicable, and their fituation 
 abroad in a flourishing ftate, furely the 
 preamble of the bill could not be founded 
 in fact, and that plea of neceffity, which 
 had been fo ftrenuoufly dwelt upon, did 
 not exift, for then there could be no necef- 
 fity for this meafure. Ay, but then, fays 
 the learned Lord, if the bill does not pafs 
 immediately, which is folely for the regu- 
 lation of the Company's affairs at home, it 
 will totally prevent gentlemen from failing 
 in proper time to take upon them their ap- 
 pointments in India. What advantage 
 was intended by that argument, he was 
 entirely at a lofs to comprehend : but even 
 admitting the Company were actually the 
 culprits they were faid to be, would their 
 Lordfhips have it recorded in their Jour- 
 nals, that they had refufed to give them an 
 opportunity to eflablifh their innocence ? 
 Should it be faid, that the conftitution of 
 K 2 this
 
 [ 63 J 
 
 this country allowed an individual, where 
 his property was concerned, to appear by 
 counfel at the bar of that Houfe, and give 
 his reafons why they fhould not proceed, 
 and yet, when an aft was brought in to 
 deprive a corporate body of their charter, 
 and to inveft their property in the hands of 
 Grangers, their Counfel {hould be checked, 
 and reftrained from producing that evidence 
 which, in all likelihood, would prove their 
 affairs were in fo excellent a train, that it 
 would not be in the power of mifmanage- 
 ment, in the power of whoever this bill 
 might appoint, to put them in diforder. 
 If the learned Lord had thought the Coun- 
 fel were guilty of mif-fpending their Lord- 
 Ihips* time, why did he not ftaie his fufpi- 
 cions fooner ? Why did he leave it till 
 peace was mentioned, and proofs were of- 
 fered of its being ratified, with the authori- 
 ties, and that hoftilities were ceafed in the 
 Carnatic? Thefe were circumftances that 
 would not, moft certainly, acl: very forcibly 
 in criminating the Company for mifma- 
 riagement, or for having brought them- 
 
 felves
 
 felves on the verge of ruin ; perhaps it was 
 upon this principle they had been objected 
 to. When parties were admitted to the 
 bar of that Houfe, their cafe would be pe- 
 culiarly hard, if any noble Lord could get 
 up and reftrain the Connfel from what 
 might very likely be the moft material 
 part of his evidence. Could fuch a mea- 
 fure be called juftice ? If not, fhould it 
 be faid, that the firft court of judicature in 
 this kingdom gave fan&ion to it ? He truft- 
 ed not. The people's rights ought to be 
 held facred ; and it would be highly fub- 
 verfive of thofe rights, in his opinion, to 
 punifh where no delinquency was proved, 
 to cenfure where every approbation was 
 due. The bufmefs before your Lordfhips 
 is of fuch a complicated and critical de- 
 fcription, that every fpecies of information 
 will be found indilpenfable to a fair and 
 candid apprehenfion of it. And inftead of 
 blaming Counfel for giving you too much, 
 your Lordfhips ought to thank them for 
 the pains they have taken to contracl: it 
 into a proper form, and prefent it at your 
 
 Lord-
 
 t 7 1 
 
 Lordfhips' bar under a clear and connected 
 point of view. They might, inftead of a 
 few paprrs, not teuious or complicated, 
 they might have infused on reading five 
 hundred volumes : this, however, they 
 have relinquimed for fuch an abftracl of 
 the whole, as may not interfere either with 
 the patience or the ordinary mode of the 
 Houfe. The learned Lord had dwelt 
 much upon the idea, that it was a wim 
 \vith fome perfons to protract the bill. 
 Rumours may be propagated of fuch a na- 
 ture and tendency, as to fruftrate all the 
 purpofes of the bill. Who would have 
 expected an obfervation of this fort from 
 the noble and learned Lord ? Miniftry 
 ought to be the laft, at leaft, to hazard fuch 
 furmifes. Who knows not how induftri- 
 oufly their creatures are occupied in this 
 kind of work ? For his part, he thought 
 it of too much confequence to be psfled 
 haftily through that Houfe. He could 
 wifli their Lordfhips to confider it as he 
 did, as a bill of the utmoft confequence 
 and greateft importance ; then would they 
 
 exa-
 
 examine minutely into every argument 
 that could be adduced, and determine on 
 fa&s, not on general implication. The 
 papers, it was likewife faid, were generally 
 known ; they were in every body's hands. 
 This, to be fure, in a great meafure, he 
 could not deny ; for he fuppofed their Lord- 
 fhips were as well acquainted how they 
 came in every body's hands as he was : a 
 gentleman had fent them to him, and he 
 doubted not that very few of their Lord- 
 fhips had been omitted. It was, however, 
 very iingular to him, that the learned 
 Lord, who certainly was an ornament to 
 his profeffion, fhould object to papers as 
 evidence, becaufe they were printed ; this 
 was a new doctrine to him : but, however, 
 the papers that were now offered, and were 
 objected to, were not printed, they were 
 not in every body's hands, for they had 
 not long been received, therefore they cer- 
 tainly might be admitted without giving 
 offence to the noble Lord on that head, 
 and prove of fome information to the 
 Houfe, as they would, perhaps ; there did 
 
 not
 
 [ T- ] 
 
 not exift that preffing neceffity for pafling 
 this bill, as had been held forth in another 
 place : it is therefore hoped your Lord- 
 ihips will beware how you proceed. Vio- 
 late not the rules of the Houfe, in complai- 
 fance to a meafure which originates in an 
 open violation of whatever is moft dear 
 and facred to Englifhmen. Refpect your 
 own dignity, and the privilege of Parlia- 
 ment. Forms are the hedges of the con- 
 ftitution. The moment thofe are .broken 
 down, that is left. 
 
 V The Earl of Mansfield left the woolfack, 
 
 and agreed with the noble Lord, whofe ob- 
 jeftions to the courfe of evidence at the bar 
 were now under difcufiion, that a very 
 confiderable part of that evidence had no 
 immediate or obvious connection with the 
 bill before the Houfe. The prefent mea- 
 fure was a ftrong and fevere one ; and the 
 / ftronger and more fevere it was, the more 
 
 ^ were the Company entitled to ftruggle 
 againftjt. To curtail or derange their evi- 
 dence would, for that reafon, have an ap- 
 pearance
 
 C 73 ] 
 
 pearance of harfhnefs, which the prudence 
 and delicacy of their Lordfhips would na- 
 turally difpofe them to avoid. He did not 
 fee any difadvantage to the bill, if right, 
 that could refult from whatever fadls might 
 be fuggefted ; and if it was ultimately found 
 to be wrong, their Lordfhips' time could 
 not have been better employed. But that 
 which had been propofed, and which re- 
 lated to reftoration of peace in the Carnatic, 
 he conceived to be altogether in point ; for 
 the queftion on which the Houfe was called 
 to decide, would, in his Lordihip's appre- 
 henfion, be materially affected by that faft. 
 He owned, however, that the bill defer ved 
 immediate inveftigation, and that too much 
 difpatch could hardly be given to it, for the 
 reafons ths learned Lord had aligned : but 
 his Lordfhip imagined, that much unne- 
 cefTary delay would be occaiioned by the 
 prefent motion ; he could therefore have 
 wifhed his Lordmip had not, on that ac- 
 count oppofed it, and that the Gounfel had 
 been allowed to give them in his own way. 
 What referred to the Carnatic, he presumed 
 L would
 
 C 74 ] 
 
 would not be long, as he apprehended ft 
 was only a letter irom Lord Macartney 
 afcertaining the perfect evacuation of that 
 country. 
 
 Lord Longhborough had yet heard no- 
 thing to fatisfy him that his objection 
 was not founded; and to him, time appeared 
 
 ,/ juft now of infinite importance. This was 
 only part of a plan for regulating the affairs 
 of India. Should their Lordfhips approve 
 the principle of it, and fancVify it by their 
 adoption, a great many other bills would 
 
 ,.\ necefTarily follow. And it was proper to 
 put their Lordmips in mind, that a few 
 / weeks delay would prevent the effeft of the 
 meafure one whole year. The fhips for 
 India muft be ready to fail fome time -in 
 February ; and many things bcfides the 
 mere paffing of the bills were neceflary. 
 With a view to that event, whatever the 
 noble and learned Lord near him (Lord 
 Thurlow) might think of rumours, he 
 mentioned it as a far, that a rumour was 
 circulated, and had reached his ear lince he 
 
 came
 
 [ 75 ] 
 
 came to that Houfe, that the Connfel had 
 been actually inftru&ed and enjoined by 
 their clients to protral the time by every 
 poffible manoeuvre in their power. He 
 therefore had deemed it his 4uty to apprize 
 their Lordfhips of a circumftance which it 
 became them to treat as it deferved. This 
 objection, however, was founded on the 
 nature of the bill, as independent alike of 
 whatever might be the prefent ftate of India. 
 This, though not affected by any thing yet 
 advanced, he was willing, as far as his Jin- 
 gle voice went, to forego, and to give the 
 Counfel whatever indulgence the Houfe 
 might think proper to grant them. 
 
 The Duke of Richmond was not dif- 
 pofed to confider that as an indulgence to 
 which the fubjeft had an undeniable right. 
 And he wiuhed noble Lords, in throwing 
 out general things, would never fuffer any 
 language or phrafeology to efcape them, not 
 ftri&ly conftitutipnal. In his opinion, the 
 juftice of the Houfe, as well as the fran- 
 chjfes of the fubjefts, was intimately con- 
 l * J L z netted
 
 [ 76 ] ; 
 
 with the queflion before their Lord- 
 fhips. And thefe, in his mind, were objects 
 much more valuable than all India. What 
 colour would this be to violate privileges, 
 as fundamental and facred as any which the 
 laws provided ? A Company are not only 
 deprived of their property, but groflly 
 calumniated. They came before this Houfe 
 abundantly prepared to have vindicated their 
 rights, and in t^e very midft of their evi- 
 dence are flopped, their Counfel deranged, 
 and their defence confeqiiently defeated. He 
 therefore appealed to the juftice and the digr 
 nity of the Houfe in behalf of the Com- 
 pany and their rights. 
 
 i 
 
 Lord Thurlow was rather hurt by the 
 
 boon which the noble and learned Lord 
 held out to the Company by way of com- 
 promife. Neither did he rightly compre- 
 hend the expedition fo frrenuoufly urged on 
 tjie occafion. The whole affair {truck his 
 I^ordmip rather ludicroufly, as if it were 
 tjie intention of Government to fend out 
 their new plan of Afiatic regulation by 
 
 halves,
 
 C 77 1 
 
 halves, in order that one part might ferve 
 only as a prologue to the other. It was 
 indeed but too obvious, that a breach was 
 meditated in the body of evidence, in order 
 to throw the whole into confulion. 
 
 His Jxordfhip took notice of a practice 
 in the committee for trying the validity of 
 elections, by which counfel were often in- 
 timidated and difconcerted in fuch a manner, 
 as to render their beft digefied fyftem of 
 agitation abortive. 
 
 Lord Loughborough was certain, what- 
 ever the intention of the learned Lord near 
 him might have been by thefe oblique ob- 
 fervations, the good fenfe of the Counfel 
 was a refutation of them. Though he 
 wilhed them to act the part afligned them 
 by the noble Lord, they were incapable of 
 ftooping to it. His Lordfhip had already 
 waved the objection, though nothing had 
 been urged to fatisfy him of its invalidity ; 
 and he could not now trefpafs longer on 
 their Lordfhips' time in anfwering any thing 
 farther that might be fnggefted. 
 
 Lord
 
 [ 78 ] 
 
 Lord Grantley (notwithfhnding the 
 learned Lord's farcafm about the inatten- 
 tion of their Lordfhips) had not been abfent 
 during all the evidence which had been of- 
 fered at the bar. He aficrted his abfolute 
 independence of all parties, and was happy 
 that his mind met the prefent bufinefs alto- 
 gether un warped by prejudice or connec- 
 tion of any kind. He did not, however, 
 fubfcribe implicitly to the dodrine held out 
 by the noble and learned Lord who had 
 objected to the evidence at the bar. The 
 relevancy of the evidence to the bill in 
 queftion he thought very plain. The Com- 
 pany were charged with improper manage- 
 ment. How could they other wife proceed 
 in their own vindication than by fuch a 
 fyftem of proof as their Counfel now offered 
 to their coniideration ? The learned Lord 
 tells the Houfe that the paper refpecYmg the 
 recommencement of peace in the Carnatic is 
 printed. What ! Does the noble and learn- 
 4 ed Lord infer from that, our obligation to 
 rtake all the lyes and falfehoods in circulation 
 as fads becaufe they may be printed ? He 
 
 muft 
 
 i
 
 C 79 ] 
 
 muft kno\v better. This Houfe is not com- 
 petent to receive any other than legal evi- 
 dence. 
 
 The Earl of Effingham did not diflike a 
 protra&ion of the bufinefs, though he hoped 
 the fufpicions of the learned Lord to that 
 effect were nugatory and unfounded. He 
 would not therefore confume their Lord- 
 fhips time by pradVijing the very thing he 
 condemned. He -had (imply rifen to ex- 
 prefs his approbation of the mode in which 
 the Counfel at the bar had conducted the 
 evidence, and to affure their Lord/hips that 
 he watched for an opportunity when he 
 might, confidently with the order of the 
 Houfe, move to poftpone the whole matter 
 till their Lordmips had more thoroughly 
 and matured it in their own minds. 
 
 The Counfel then went on with their evi- 
 dence ; but at half an hour after eleven 
 o'clock the Counfel declared, that feveral of 
 the witneffes they wifhed to have examined 
 had gone off on account of the heat of the 
 Houfe, /lot being held by procef?; that 
 
 fome
 
 [ 8 ] 
 
 fome of the books they wifhed to have fub- 
 mitted to the infpeeYion of their Lordfhips, 
 as eflential to the catife, had been neglected 
 to be brought up, and they therefore ex- 
 preffed a wifh, that the farther profecution 
 of the bufmefs might be poftponed to 
 another day. 
 
 The Duke of Chandos, on this fymptom 
 of procraftination in the Counfel, rofe, and 
 moved an adjournment, urging, in favour 
 of his motion, the extreme importance of 
 the matter under confederation, and the late- 
 nefs of the hour. 
 
 The Earl of Carlifle reprobated the idea 
 of adjourning the farther hearing of the 
 caufe, for the frivolous reafons mentioned by 
 the Counfel. Had not their Lordfhips met 
 for the purpofe of hearing the caufe? Had 
 they not beftowed on it every attention 
 which it feemed to merit? Was it there- 
 fore becoming their dignity to defift pro- 
 cedure in the bufinefs at fo important a pe- 
 riod ? Would this not be trifling with the 
 
 deference
 
 [ 8. ] 
 
 deference and refpeft they owed themfelves ? 
 He was therefore againft the motion of ad- 
 journment. 
 
 Earl Fitzwilliam declared his difapproba- 
 tion of the motion. He could not think 
 there was the leaft pretence for the gentlemen 
 at the Bar, to expert their application for 
 farther time to prepare themfelves, fhould 
 meet with indulgence, fmce the petition, in 
 fupport of which they had been heard fo 
 many hours, had been prefented fix days 
 ago, and fince the very fame gentlemen 
 had appeared at the Bar of the Houfe of 
 Commons, as advocates for a iimilar pe- 
 tition prefented to that Houfe againft the 
 fame bill, his Lordmip defired the Houfe 
 particularly to take notice of what had fal- 
 len from the learned Counfel in his opening, 
 when he had told them that he had not 
 received thofe inftruftions, in confequence 
 of which he had proceeded to examine the 
 witnefles produced that day, till eleven 
 o'clock the preceding night, or eleven 
 o'clock that very day. That declaration, 
 M the
 
 s* J 
 
 the Earl faid, confirmed him in thofe fuf- 
 picions hinted at earlier in the day, that 
 there was an intention to procraftinate and 
 delay the bill as much as poffible, in order, 
 by that means, to prevent its being pafled. 
 He appealed to the Houfe in general, whe- 
 ther fo odd a circumftance as the neglecting 
 to give Counfel inftruclions in due time, 
 againft a bill that had been for fome weeks 
 before Parliament, did not carry with it 
 a very fufpicious appearance ? He hoped, 
 therefore, the Houfe would render fruitlefs 
 any fuch attempt, and that they would 
 concur with him in directing the Counfel 
 to proceed. 
 
 Earl Ferrers then rofe, and faid, my 
 Lords, I am forry to be obliged to trouble 
 your Lordlhips at this late hour, but the 
 great regard I have for my King and the 
 conftitution of this kingdom, forces me to 
 Sand forth in its defence, and as a truly 
 independent Lord of Parliament, being 
 thoroughly fatisfied that if this bill pafles 
 this Houfe. nobody can be fafe under the 
 
 exer-
 
 [ 3 J 
 
 exertions of the legiflative power, and par- 
 ticularly as there is one precedent to quote 
 on this occafion* which is but a fmall one 
 in comparifon with this, though it was a 
 Lord of this Houfe (whofe eftate was above 
 5000!. a year) was taken from him and 
 vefted in the hands of four truftees, with a 
 power of leafing and cutting down the 
 wood, with a receiver on his whole eftate, 
 to pay an annuity of 300!. a year. I beg 
 leave to fay farther, that I am totally againft 
 hurrying bills through the Houfe, which 
 can very rarely be done with any good de- 
 lign ; and we have an inftance in the laft 
 year of what the public fuffered by hurrying 
 the Receipt Tax through this Houfe, which 
 I endeavoured to prevent, and would have 
 informed the Miniftry what would be the 
 confequence, if they would have permitted 
 me, which would have prevented the people 
 in all the manufacturing towns, long tor* 
 mented with fuch a vexatious tax, betide the 
 difcredit it has been to the Minifter, which 
 I would have faved him from. I am, there- 
 fore, for giving a bill of this magnitude and 
 M 2 con-
 
 confequence, its full weight and confidera- 
 tion ; and for that reafon (hall join moft 
 heartily in the motion for an adjournment. 
 
 Lord Sidney alfo faid, the bill was of too 
 
 s 
 
 much importance to be hurried ; and de- 
 clared btfore their Lordfhips paffed fuch a 
 bill, they were bound to hear the petitio- 
 ners in the ampleft manner. 
 
 The Duke of Chandos rofe again, and de- 
 clared he addreired himfelf to the feelings of 
 the Houfe, begging their Lordftiips would 
 coniider, whether, after the learned gentle- 
 men had been on their legs at the Bar, for 
 feven hours, incommoded by the croud 
 around them, and fatigued with the heat 
 they all felt, and after they had requefted till 
 the next morning only to prepare them- 
 felves, it was confiftent with their own 
 character, and their own dignity, to infift 
 on their proceeding, efpecially at fo late an 
 {iour of the night ? 
 
 The Duke of Portland faid, he mould 
 willingly have agreed to the motion pro- 
 
 pofed
 
 [ 8'S ]. 
 
 pofed by the noble Duke, 'and have" ao 
 ceeded to the requifition of the Counfel, had 
 there appeared to him to have been the 
 fmalleft reafon to juftify the latter. But 
 as the bill had been in Parliament for fome 
 weeks, as it propofed a meafure that had 
 been much canvafled and talked of, and as 
 that meafure was of very confiderable im- 
 portance, and from its nature, and the na- 
 ture of the fubject to which it applied, fuch 
 as ought, if adopted by the wifdom of their 
 Lordfhips, to be adopted with as little de- 
 lay as the forms of Parliament would ad- 
 mit, he could by no means give his content 
 to the motion. Being upon his leg?, the 
 Duke faid, he would mention a matter, $o 
 which he begged their Lordmips' moft fe- 
 rious attention, fince it materially concerned 
 the conftitution of the country : a rumour 
 had prevailed for the laft three days, that 
 had given him very great alarm indeed ; fo 
 much alarm, that he had determined to ftate 
 it to their Lordfbips on the very firft day 
 that they met after it began to be circula- 
 and he mould, he faid, have done it 
 
 much
 
 [ 86 ] 
 
 much earlier in the day, but that Ke 
 loath to break through the regularity of their 
 proceedings, or draw off the attention of 
 the Houfe from hearing Counfel againft 
 a bill, which certainly was of great impor- 
 tance. Since that bill had been brought 
 into Parliament, the public had been in- 
 flamed againft it in the moft induftrious, 
 and, in fome degree, moft fuccefsful man- 
 ner. No arts, however unfair, however 
 unwarrantable, had been left untried to run 
 it down, and excite a general atarm, in con- 
 fequence of a grofs mifreprefehtation of its 
 views and its objecl. Among other arts, 
 rumours of different kinds had been circu- 
 lated with the moft fedulous induftry, and a 
 late rumour was of a very extraordinary na- 
 ture indeed. In that rumour, the name of the 
 moft iacred character in the kingdom had 
 been afpei fed, and the name of one of their 
 Lordfhips, he hoped, abufed ; but certainly, 
 Inch was the completion of the rumour, 
 that he mould be wanting in regard to his 
 own character, wanting in that love and 
 zeal for the conftitution, which, he trufted, 
 
 had
 
 [ 8? ] 
 
 had ever marked and diftinguifhed his poli- 
 tical life, wanting in the duty he owed to 
 the public as a Minifter, if he did not take an 
 opportunity, if it turned out to be true, of 
 propofing a meafure upon it to their Lord- 
 (hips, that would prove they felt the fame 
 jealoufy, the fame deteftation, and the fame 
 defire to mark and ftigmatize every attempt 
 to violate the conftitution, as he did. 
 
 The Duke of Richmond rofe, and de- 
 clared, that from the hint the noble Duke 
 had thrown out, it was impoffible to fay to 
 what he alluded. In a matter of fo much 
 ferioufnefs, he ought to fpeak out, and to 
 make a fpecific charge, that thofe it might 
 affect, (hould be able to meet it fairly, and 
 bring it to a plain and direct ifllie. The 
 noble Duke might allude to one thing, or 
 he might allude to fomething elfe extremely 
 different, which was at that time in his re- 
 collection. A newfpaper, which he had in 
 his pocket, his Grace faid, contained as in- 
 decent and as fcandalous a paragraph, as 
 ever he had met with ; perhaps the noble 
 
 Duke
 
 r c* i 
 
 4_ oo 
 
 Duke alluded to the fact there Hated, 
 would read it to the Houfe. His grace 
 then read the following article from an 
 evening paper of Saturday : 
 
 " A moft injurious and abfurd rumour 
 4< prevailed yefterday, and was circulated 
 4 * with great induftry through the various 
 44 parts of the metropolis, that his Maje-* 
 * 4 fty had given a direct intimation to his 
 44 Minifters that he was hoftile to the Eaft- 
 44 India bill, and that they in confequence 
 44 had reftgned their refpeclive employ- 
 44 ments. We have the beft authority for 
 44 afluring our readers that no part of this 
 44 report is true. To give a greater air of 
 44 credibility to the falfehood, it was repre- 
 44 fented that this event had taken place in 
 44 confequence of a conference that Earl 
 44 Temple had held with his Majefty on 
 44 Thurfday laft, the refult of which was 
 44 faid to have been a pofitive affurance on 
 the part of the King, that the bill in 
 queftion was in the higtaft degree difa- 
 greeable to him. This concomitant part 
 
 4C 
 
 It
 
 ** of the ftory, however, is an evident and 
 " indifputable libel upon the characters of 
 " both thefe great perfonages concerned in 
 ** it ; for we can affure our readers, (alfo 
 "from the^beft authority) that his Maje- 
 " fty has given his gracious concurrence 
 " and approbation of the conduct of his 
 ** Minifters, with refpecT: to the India bill, 
 " a thqufand times in the clofet, nay, in- 
 " deed, as often as it has been mentioned 
 " there. Now to fuppofe or impute to any 
 " man, much lefs to this facred chara&er, 
 44 fo defpicable a degree of confirmtd dupli- 
 " city as that of his having approved and 
 " patronifed a meafure in all the ftages of 
 " its progrefs from its firft adoption till its 
 *' third reading in the Houfe of Commons, 
 " and yet that he was in faft averfe to it, is 
 *' too grofs for belief, and is in this inftance 
 " an a6t of the higheft difloyalty. That 
 " Lord Temple (hould have circulated fuch 
 " a report, knowing it, as he muft, to have 
 " been founded in direct falfehood, is not 
 " extremely probable ; and therefore the 
 " whole muft, doubtlefs, have been the im- 
 N " pudent
 
 [ 9 ] , . ' 
 
 " pudent fabrication of fome hired runner, 
 " to produce a temporary alarm in the me- 
 * ; tropolis, and to try to effet by tumult, 
 " what they could not carry by argir- 
 ment." 
 
 The above, his Grace faid, was as ex- 
 traordinary a feries of affertions, declared 
 to come from the beft authority, as ever 
 occurred in a newfpaper. 
 
 Earl Temple rofe as foon as the Duke 
 iat down, and faid, confcious as he was 
 tha.t every word he muft utter would be 
 entirely unparliamentary : yet, after what 
 had been fuggefted by the noble Duke who 
 fpoke firft, and after his name had been in- 
 troduced by the noble Duke who fpoke laft, 
 though he muft think, not in the moft par- 
 liamentary way, he fliould perfift ia defir- 
 ing to be heard. The noble Duke at the 
 head of the Treafury talked of rumours ; 
 let the noble Duke make a fpecific charge. 
 Whenever he did fo, he would not fhrink 
 from it, but would meet it direftly. That 
 
 his
 
 t 9' ] 
 
 his Majefty had recently honoured him with 
 a conference, xvas a matter of notoriety. 
 It was not what he wifhed to deny, nor 
 what he had it in his power to conceal. 
 He faid, that it was the privilege of Peers, 
 as the hereditary counfellors of the Crown, 
 either individually or collectively, to advife 
 the Crown, was well known. He had 
 given his advice to the Crown ; what that 
 advice had been, he would not then fay* 
 It was lodged in the breaft of his Majefty ; 
 nor would he declare the purport of it 
 without the royal confent, or till he faw 
 a proper occafion. He was aware this fort 
 of language was diforderly ; he begged the 
 Houfe however to reqolleft that he had not 
 made it neceflary ; if Lord Temple's name 
 had been introduced, it had not been the 
 fault of Lord Temple. When the noble 
 Duke mentioned rumours, and did not fpe- 
 cify to what he alluded, he had been filent ; 
 and he mould have continued in iilence, and 
 have treated every thing of that fort with 
 the fame contempt that he held newfpaper 
 paragraphs in, had not the noble Duke, 
 N 2 who
 
 t 92 ] 
 
 who fpoke laft, made it impoffible for him 
 not to rife, and defy the noble Duke at the 
 head of the Treafury to make any charge 
 that he would ftirink from. He begged to 
 know therefore what the noble Duke had 
 alluded to ? 
 
 The Duke of Richmond rofe again, and 
 faid, perhaps he had been diforderly in read- 
 ing the paragraph from the newfpaper; but 
 the noble Duke who talked of rumours had 
 done it in a manner fo general and indefi- 
 nite, that he had thought it highly necef- 
 fary to have the matter explained and un- 
 derftood. If the noble Duke meant to 
 take up all unconftitutional interference 
 with the Crown, he would join him, and 
 go as far with him upon that theme as he 
 wouldgohimfelf; but then the noble Duke 
 muft go back to his old ground, and leave 
 his prefent connections. He muft once 
 more at as a Whig, and proceed upon 
 Whig principles. He hoped, however, 
 when the noble Duke did take up that mat- 
 ter, he would take it up fairly, and not 
 
 partially.
 
 [ 93 ] 
 
 partially. That he would look at home, 
 and draw forth all uhconftitutional interfe- 
 rence with the Crown, that of Minifters, 
 as well as that of other Lords. He knew, 
 the Duke faid, that it was the duty of the 
 fervants of the Crown (o be about the 
 King's perfon, and to confult and advife 
 with his Majefty upon the receipt of foreign, 
 advices, upon the management of his finan- 
 ces, upon the conduct of the Army or Na- 
 vy, upon military and civil promotions, 
 and a variety of other executive fubje&s, 
 in which his Majefty was neceflarily to be 
 confulted ; but he would contend it was as 
 unconftitutional for a Minifter to advife 
 the Crown, and endeavour to influence his 
 Majefty in regard to any bill depending in 
 Parliament, as it was for any other perfon. 
 The prefent Adminiftration, he afferted, had, 
 from their firft coming in, proceeded to al 
 in defiance of Whig principles, and upon 
 the old fyftem, puriued by thofe whom 
 they formerly oppofcd. They had mani- 
 feftly taken unconftitutional ground, and 
 governed by a corrupt influence. When 
 
 they
 
 r 94 
 
 they firft came in, they had afked, the 
 Duke faid, if he would join them. Though 
 he liked many in Adminiftration, he de- 
 clared he could not affift fuch an Admini- 
 ftration ; he forefaw what would follow, 
 and his expectation had not been difappoint- 
 ed. The bill then before the Houfe was a 
 proof of the fort of fyftem which Mini- 
 fters had laid down. As he could not join 
 TJ them, he had quitted his fituation, and left 
 the Ordnance. What was the confequence ? 
 Three gentlemen, with no political views, 
 nor in any way connected with influence, 
 whom he had brought into office, were 
 turned out, and three members of Parlia- 
 nt introduced. Another inftance he 
 would adduce ; and that was, the giving 
 Sir William Gordon, a gentleman who 
 had ferved as an Ambaflador abroad, a 
 penfion of loool. a year. ^What could 
 this be for, but to give up his feat in Par- 
 liament, that they might bring in a new 
 member for Portfmouth ? A very able mem- 
 ber indeed, Mr. Erfkine. The Duke ex- 
 patiated upon thefe two facls, and urged 
 
 them
 
 I 95 ] 
 
 them as proofs that the prefent Admini- 
 ftration went entirely upon a fyftem of 
 corrupt influence. 
 
 The Earl of Derby begged the noble 
 Duke to look at home himfelf, before he 
 ventured to impute blame to others. When 
 the noble Duke was at the head of the Ord- 
 nance, he brought his friends into office, as 
 other men in high ftations generally did ; 
 and it was notorious that two, if not more 
 of thofe friends, were in Parliament. His 
 Lordfhip took notice of the rumours abroad 
 for the laft three days, and reprobated fuch 
 unconftitutional means of endeavouring to 
 fubvert a bill, which could not be over- 
 thrown by fair argument. 
 
 The Duke of Richmond rofe again, and 
 in order to juftify himfelf, went into a 
 detail of his conduct when in office. He 
 faid, he had brought into the Ordnance 
 Mr. Crawfurd, Mr. Aldridge, and Mr. 
 Smyth, neither of them in Parliament, in 
 the room of Sir Charles Cocks, Mr. Stra- 
 
 chey
 
 [ 96 ] ' 
 
 chey, and Mr. Adam, all of whom were 
 in Parliament; that Mr. Pelham, who had 
 fucceedcd Sir Charles Frederick as Surveyor 
 General, was in Parliament, and Mr. Steele, 
 who was his private Secretary. Much as 
 he difliked influence, the Duke faid, and 
 greatly as he had approved a place bill, it 
 had always been a maxim with him, and 
 which had often been declared by him, that 
 one or two gentlemen belonging to each 
 public office, ought to be in the Houfe of 
 Commons. In his own cafe, he had but 
 two of his official connections in that Houfe, 
 viz. Mr. Pelham fur the Board, and Mr. 
 Steele for himfe'f. He faid farther, that 
 he had, on many occafions, flood ap for 
 the liberties of the people ; he had alfo, 
 when occofion required, defended the pri- 
 vileges of that Houfe ; and he (hould be 
 equally ready to contend for the conftitu- 
 tional prerogative of the Grown, when- 
 ever it was attempted to be invaded, as it 
 was, he contended, moft violently by the 
 bill then under confideration. 
 
 Earl
 
 r , 
 
 , ' C 97 ] 
 
 Earl Temple rofe again, and faid, as 
 the noble Duke in his eye had not thought 
 proper to make any reply to his quenioh, 
 he begged their Lordfhips to hold it in 
 mind, that the noble Duke had {aid in his 
 former fpeech, that he did not charge him' 
 with having a&ed in the unconftitutional 
 manner, the rumours and the nevyfpaper 
 paragraphs had dared to ftate. It was ne- 
 ceflary that it mould be fo underftood. 
 What the advice was, that he had given 
 his Majefty, it was not then necefTary for 
 him to recite ; but when his Majefty fhould 
 give him permiffion to divulge it, he 
 (hould venture to affure their Lordfhips, 
 that it would be found to be the advice of 
 an honeft man. With regard to the mat- 
 ter before them, the confideration, whether 
 the Counfel, who had declared they beg- 
 ged to be indulged till morning, mould be 
 ordered to proceed or not, their Lordfhips 
 would determine as they thought proper. 
 He was a young man, capable of continu- 
 ing there as long as any one of them ; but 
 their Lordfhips ought to confider, that 
 O they
 
 they had thofe among them not quite fo 
 young, nor fo fit to endure fatigue. The 
 bill in every point of view was fuch a bill 
 as ought not to be hurried. From the evi- 
 dence that had been laid before them that 
 day, it was evident that it was a direct 
 violation of the rights and franchifes of the 
 Eaft-India Company, rights and franchifes 
 veiled in them by a great variety of char- 
 ters and als of Parliament. This was a 
 confideration that muft come home to the 
 bofom of every Englishman, and was fuf- 
 fkiently important to juftify the moft fcri- 
 ous deliberation ; but there was another 
 confideration ftill more important, and that 
 was, the new and unconftitutional power 
 it would create. This his Lordfhip en-, 
 larged upon as a matter which called for 
 the moft krupulous care on the part of the 
 Houfe ; he concluded, therefore, with hope^ 
 ing they would adjourn, in order to give 
 the Counfel an opportunity of proceeding 
 with the reft of their evidence in the morn-, 
 ing- 
 
 The
 
 [ 99 ] 
 
 The Duke of Portland rofe again, and 
 faid, he had not in his former fpeech made 
 any charge againft the noble Earl, nor did 
 he then mean to make any fpecific charge. 
 The rumours he had before alluded to, 
 had given him very ferious alarm, becaufe 
 they fpoke confidently of a mode of inter- 
 ference having been pra&ifed, with a view 
 to defeat the bill, unknown to the confti- 
 tution, and which had not been heard of 
 in that country, at leaft not for a long 
 time. But he begged leave to affure the 
 noble Earl, that he did not take up the 
 rumour from a newfpaper ; he had not 
 known it had got into the newfpapers, till 
 the noble Duke produced that, which he 
 had read the paragraph from a little before. 
 The rumours had been notorious, and not 
 confined to any particular fet of individu- 
 als, but had been in every body's mouth, 
 all over the town, for the laft three or four 
 days. The facts aflerted in thofe rumours, A 
 if proved, were of a moft lerious nature, 
 and fuch as would, in that cafe, make it 
 neceffary for him to ground a proportion 
 O2 to
 
 to their Lordfhips upon, in which he had 
 no manner of doubt >but the whole Houfe 
 would p;o along with him. 
 
 Lord Vifcount Townfhend faid, he had 
 wifhed to fay a few words, if it were only 
 for the purpofe of calling their Lordfhips* 
 attention back again to the fubjedt, that 
 had firft given rife to the debate, which 
 had taken fo extraordinary a turn. It was, 
 whether the Counfel at the bar mould be 
 indulged till the next morning to prepare 
 themfelves farther, or mould be ordered to 
 proceed in the beft manner they could 
 then ? This qiieftion had been ftarted an 
 hour iince ; fo that out of companion to 
 
 i i i J3iUL. . , ,, . 
 
 the two learned gememen, who denred to 
 proceed no farther, that Houfe had gone 
 into a debate, and kept them {landing at 
 the bar a full hour, as little regarded as a 
 couple of hackney coach-horfes ftanding at 
 an ale-houfe door. The requeft of the 
 two learned gentlemen, his Lordmip faid, 
 if complied with, he hoped was not meant 
 as a beginning of more procraftination than 
 
 that
 
 C {<* >. 
 
 that of a fingle day. He* had not,ryet 
 heard anything againft the bill that had 
 induced him to think upon it in any other 
 light, than that in which the noble.Duke 
 at the head of the Treafury had placed it. * 
 
 But he was certain, if it pafled ,at all, it 
 
 ~ 
 was neceflary to pafs with, difpatch. The 
 
 feafon required it. Every body knew that 
 it could not be fent out to India fo as to 
 take eflfecT: there early, unlefs it went in 
 February ; there was an end of any refor- 
 mation in India, therefore, for another year, 
 fhould it not be fent out in that month ; 
 and it was for this reafon, without mean- 
 ing to give offence to any individual Lords, 
 that he earneftly hoped no management, no 
 endeavours to ocqafion delay, would be 
 praftifed. His .Lordmip repeated what he 
 had faid on Tuefday laft, that he never 
 faw a bill more deliberately, nor more care- * 
 fully conduced through a Committee, than 
 this bill had been conducted through the 
 Committee of the Houfe of Common?. 
 Every objection had been liftened to, and 
 every reafonable alteration adopted. He /\ 
 
 wifhed,
 
 [ 102 ] 
 
 
 
 \vifhed, therefore, as little delay as poffible 
 might now attend it. With regard to 
 what a noble Duke, his fticceff ;r and his 
 predeceflbr in office, had fold about influ- 
 ence, he was a liule furprlzed. That 
 noble Duke, upon a coalition having been 
 formed before that, now fo much con- 
 demned, and which had proved far more 
 unpleafant to him, had been made Matter 
 General of the Ordnance. The noble Duke 
 then put his own friends info office. No- 
 body blamed him for it; but if influence 
 was to be talked of, what had turned his 
 friends Mr. Strachey, Mr. Adam, and 
 others out? Nothing but influence. Every 
 man at the head of an office naturally 
 liked to have thofe about him, in whom 
 he placed confidence. For this reafon it 
 was, that when he came in again he 
 brought back his old friends. The Ord- 
 nance had been called an Augean ftable. 
 The noble Duke had fet about cleaning it, 
 and he thought his friends could beft affift 
 his labours. He in like manner chofe to 
 trull his, becaufe he thought they could re- 
 move
 
 C is 3 
 
 move the dirt away as fait as any other 
 people. But, to return to the queftion, 
 he wifhed their Lordfhips would relieve^ 
 the gentlemen at the bar 
 
 [. i.. . I-, 1 *;. *':..' v 
 Earl Fitzwilliam {aid, he was glad the. 
 
 noble Duke had mentioned the rumcnrs 
 that had lately prevailed, fince it had af- 
 forded the noble Earl fo fair an opportu- 
 nity of anfvvering, and declaring them 
 falfe. 
 
 Earl Temple defired the noble Earl not 
 to mifimderftand him. He had given no 
 anfwer either one way or the other, nor 
 would he give any anfwer, till a plain, 
 direct, and fpecific charge was urged : That 
 he would meet without fhrinking ; but he 
 would only treat rumours and newfpapcr 
 libels w}th contempt, 
 
 Earl Fitzwilliam again urged it to the 
 Houfe, that the CounfeFs declaration of his 
 not having received his inftrudlions till 
 o'clock the preceding evening, al- 
 though
 
 though fo much time had elapfed fince the 
 contents of the bill were known, very for- 
 cibly impreffed his mind with a fufpicion, 
 that a .plan of procraftination and affected 
 delny was adopted with a view to defeat 
 the bill's fuccefs. He therefore declared, he 
 could not confent to the motion of ad- 
 journment. With regard to the aflertion 
 of a noble Duke, that the Minifter who 
 Ihould advife the Grown to fupport a bill 
 depending in Parliament, and endavour 
 to influence the Crown in its favour, would 
 aft unconftitutionally, he denied the doc- 
 trine. If he knew any thing of the Britifh 
 conftitution, the reverfe was the fact. The 
 Grown could do no wrong. The Minif- 
 ter alone was refponfible for every meafure 
 of government,- while he was in office. 
 He had a right, therefore, constitutionally, 
 to exert his influence with the Crown, and 
 indeed it would be impoffible for any go- 
 vernment to go on without fuch exertion. 
 The cafe was widely different, as the ru- 
 mour ftated the facts, to which the noble 
 Duke had alluded, when he fpoke of the 
 
 alarm.
 
 alarm, which the rumour that prevailed 
 univerfally for the three laft days had oo 
 cafioned. The rumour confidently faid, 
 that the noble Earl in his tye had advifed 
 his Majefly againft 
 
 Earl Temple rofe immediately, and de- 
 fired that the noble Earl's words might be 
 taken down. 
 
 The Earl of Garlifle reminded their 
 Lordmips, that according to the order of the 
 Houfe, when any noble Lord's words were 
 moved to be taken down, the bar muft be 
 cleared. 
 
 Strangers were upon this ordered to 
 withdraw. 
 
 While they were out, as Earl Fitz- 
 william merely ftated the fab alledged 
 againft Earl Temple as matter of rumour, 
 Earl Temple begged pardon for having 
 given their Lordmips fo much trouble, and 
 waved his requeft of having the words 
 taken down. 
 
 P The
 
 [ "6 ]! ' 
 
 The queftion of adjournment was then 
 put, and the Houfe divided. 
 
 Contents - 69 Not contents 57 
 Proxies - - 18 Proxies - - 23 
 
 87 79 
 
 Majority for the adjournment 8 
 
 W E D N E s D AY, December i j. 
 
 In purfnance of the order of the day 
 the Lords were fummoned on the fecond 
 reading of the bill for better regulating the 
 affairs of the Eaft-India Company, &c, 
 which being read, 
 
 Earl Gower rofe, and obferved, that, 
 from the bill itfelf, and from what he had 
 heard fo clearly, ably, and diftin&lv urged 
 at the bar, he could not refift the impulfe 
 of declaring his diflent to the bill. He felt 
 it fo forcibly, that he fliould not be fatis- 
 fied with giving it a lilent negative it
 
 I 107 ] 
 
 went to condemn where no criminality was 
 proved it went to rob a body of men of 
 their corporate rights, without the appear- 
 ance of guilt, nay, when their innocence 
 was clearly eftablimed. It had been called 
 a bold and rapid meafure ; it was a bold 
 one he would admit, for, as it appeared to 
 him, it militated againft the conftitution of 
 this country he was happy to fee it was 
 confidered as of the greateft confequence by 
 many noble Lords, as well as himfelf, and 
 had brought them, as it had done him, 
 from their country retirements. He had 
 not thought of coming to town until he 
 received a copy of this bill, whLh he no 
 fooner read, than its alarming tendency 
 made him determine to fet off and give 
 what weight he pofiibly could towards its 
 rejection that Houfe had proceeded with 
 the moft tenacious precaution when a body 
 of people were to be deprived of their 
 franchifes in another cafe, and were fatis- 
 fied of their delinquency before they would 
 give their fandion and aflent to fuch a 
 meafure ; had any delinqency been proved, 
 P 2 had
 
 t 108 ] 
 
 had any been attempted, by which thefe 
 men had forfeited their chartered rights ? 
 Certainly not. It was faid they are bank- 
 rupts. Was that the fadl ? Had not the 
 contrary been clearly adduced, from au- 
 thentic papers, documents, and ftatements 
 which they had produced in their own be- 
 half, and were now upon their Lordfhips' 
 table ? He would, however, ftate what ap- 
 peared to him the pretended and the real 
 caufe for this bill. It was once pretended, 
 that from the circumftances of the Company, 
 the mifmanagement of their Directors, and 
 the difobedience of their fervants abroad, 
 actual ruin feared them in the face, and 
 made a neceffity for Parliament to inter- 
 fere, to fave them from ruin. The real 
 caufe, he fufpected, was the amazing pa- 
 tronage that would be acquired to the Mi- 
 nifter by this new arrangement. There 
 might be a neceffity for keeping the prefent 
 Adminiftration upon folid grounds, with- 
 out the apprehenfion of being removed ; and 
 the influence that would undoubtedly be ac- 
 quired by this meafure under that conlider- 
 
 ation,
 
 [ I0 9 3 
 
 ati*n, was very far from being contempti- 
 ble : but was that fufficient for their Lord- 
 fhips to confent to a violation of charter, 
 to the feizure of property, and the annihi- 
 lation of a Company which had maintained 
 its credit as the firft commercial Company 
 in the world for upwards of two centuries ? 
 Surely not. They would be convinced, 
 that the neceflity for this violent meafure 
 did actually exift, before they would adopt 
 it. If the bill ftiould pafs, which he truft- 
 ed would never be the cafe, and the influ- 
 ence that it would really throw into the 
 hands of the Minifter was confidered, he 
 conceived that the title with propriety might 
 be altered to, An Aft for regulating the 
 Eaft-India Company, for the better Go- 
 vernment of Great Britain. 
 
 The Earl of Carlifle declared; that if he 
 could agree in any point which had fallen 
 from his noble relation, it was in the able 
 manner in which the Counfel at their Lord- 
 fhips' bar had flood forth in the caufe of their 
 employers ; but at the fame time he en- 
 treated
 
 [ >-' 3 
 
 treated the Houfe would recoiled, they had 
 heard only one fide of the queftion, and 
 that the caufe mufl be bad, indeed, which 
 thofe learned gentlemen could not put a 
 tolerable face upon, efpecially when there 
 was no perfan to contradict what they 
 afierted. The bill, in his opinion, was 
 highly neceflary ; and he had not drawn his 
 opinion from mere aflertions only, but from 
 the actual ftate of the Company's affairs : 
 their debt was enormous, and the account 
 they had made out was fallacious and er- 
 roneous in the higheft degree, as he would 
 prove to their Lordfhips in t"he firft in- 
 ftance, they had charged Government with 
 a debt of 4,200,000!. which was by no 
 means a fair eftimate, becaufe this was not 
 due from Government while the Company 
 held the monopoly of trade, and there was 
 not, at prefent, the leaft intention of taking 
 that monopoly from them. Allowing, 
 however, that they had a right to ftate in 
 the account of their property what was due 
 from Government, that money being funk 
 in the three per cents, if the Company 
 
 chofe
 
 chofe to call for it, without Government's 
 interference with their monopoly, they cer- 
 tainly had no right to eftimate the debt at 
 any higher rate than the pi-ice of the funds 
 in which that ; property was vefted ; he 
 {hould therefore make a deduction in the 
 firft article of the credit fide of their ac- 
 count, of 1,680,000 pounds, which would 
 reduce it to 2,520,000 pounds. The like 
 objections were applicable to the greateft 
 part of the eftimate they had produced, as 
 a vindication of their flourifhing Hate, 
 His Lordfhip then read the various fiate-t 
 ments, and made nearly the fame ohjec-. 
 tions to them as Mr. Fox had done in the 
 Houfe of Commons ; and concluded thefe 
 obfervations by remarking, that the Com-, 
 pany, inftead of having a balance of up* 
 wards of 3,000,000!. they were above 
 6,ooo,oool. in arrears. This fituation of 
 their finances was not the only neceffity for 
 the interference of Parliament: the pro- 
 ceedings of their fervants abroad, who paid 
 little or no attention to the orders of the 
 Court of Directors, were truly alarming ; 
 
 they
 
 [ ,12 ] 
 
 they were guilty of the moft violent rut- 
 rages, making peace or war as beft fuited 
 their own intereft ; breaking treaties and 
 leagues with the different Princes ; fweep- 
 ing the inhabitants from the face of the 
 earth, and committing ravages and enor- 
 mities, that were not only a difgrace to the 
 Britifh name, but to humanity : from the 
 inability of the Directors, which had been 
 plainly proved ; for when they had deter- 
 mined on the removal of one of their fer- 
 vants, the Proprietors met, overturned that 
 determination, and voted him their thanks 
 for his conduct, although he had proceed- 
 ed in open oppofition to the orders he had 
 received. It was plain, therefore, fome re- 
 gulations were neceffary, if we wifhed to 
 keep thofe territories ; and thefe regula- 
 tions, he was firmly of opinion, would be 
 found in the bill before the Houfe, and 
 would fully anfvver the purpofe, if it was 
 permitted to pafs. The Court of Directors 
 might contain many worthy members ; 
 but he did not perceive, that it fell within 
 the capacity of twenty-four merchants to 
 
 manage
 
 manage with propriety the politics of fo 
 large a territory j they might act to the 
 beft of their judgment, but we had glaring 
 proofs they did not always aft right ; and 
 when they did, their orders were not paid 
 the leaft attention to. It had been urged, 
 that the Company by this bill was to be 
 deprived of their property : but he would 
 not admit that any fuch thing was to be 
 the cafe ; it was rather the contrary ; their 
 property being now in a precarious fitua- 
 tion, Government offered their affiftance 
 to take care of it for them : but what was 
 this property ? It was not the property of 
 an individual ; it was a property in which 
 the Public had as great, if not a much 
 greater ftake than the Company ; and there- 
 fore, furely the Public, without any un- 
 conftitutional principle, had a right to in- 
 terfere and take pofftffion of that property, 
 if they faw it mifmanaged and in danger of 
 being annihilated ; he did not fay fo mucU 
 by mifmanagement at home, as by unwar r 
 rantable proceedings in India. He did not 
 mean to criminate any man in particular 
 
 Q ' ty
 
 t "4 ] 
 
 by tbefe charges ; they were not confined 
 to any one ; rapacity and difobedience ma- 
 ny were accountable for : but this regula- 
 tion was rather intended to amend than 
 criminate, to prevent future delinquency 
 than to accufe for paft. The violation of 
 charters had alfo been much dwelt upon; 
 but, according to his ideas, the State had 
 an undoubted right to make alterations ia 
 thofe charters with which its intereft was 
 fo intimately connected. The charter of 
 the India Company ws nothing more than, 
 a mutual agreement between them and the 
 Public for both their advantages ; they 
 were to have a monopoly of the trade, to 
 the exciufion of the reft of his Majefty's 
 fubjeds ; that monopoly it was ftill intendr 
 ed they (hould poiiefs ; and therefore he 
 did not fee their charter was to be violated 
 in the leaft inftance. For thefe, among a 
 variety of other reafons, he had been in- 
 duced to conceive the bill before the Houfe 
 as a meafure that ought to be adopted, be- 
 caufe it promifed a redrefs of the evils that 
 had long fublifted, a benefit to the advan- 
 
 *....-.. . c> . . , f i , 
 
 tage$
 
 tages arifing from our commercial inter- 
 courfe, and a permanency and ftability to 
 the maintenance of our territorial poflef- 
 fions in that country. 
 
 The Earl of Coventry wifhed to call 
 their Lordmips' attention to the dangerous 
 innovation they were about to adopt ; that 
 of depriving a fet of Britifh fubje&s of 
 their deareft rights, their franchifes, and 
 their property. If they were robbed of 
 their charter, they loft their all. If char* 
 ters were fct at nought, there was an end 
 of liberty. Did we not hold our freedom 
 under Magna Charta ? and was that of fo 
 trifling a nature, that it was to be treated 
 as nothing ? This meafure appeared as a 
 circumftance of alarm to all corporate bo- 
 dies. Who would fa*', that Minifters 
 might not next year think it advifeable to 
 put the direction of the Bank into commif- 
 iion ? Might not the African Company 
 expect it ? or, perhaps, they might choofe 
 to appoint in future, the Mayor of the city 
 of London. Thefe were conclufions he. 
 Q 2 thought
 
 [ "6 ] 
 
 thought every corporate body in the king- 
 dom had a right to draw, provided the pre- 
 fent bill was not checked in its career by 
 their Lord(hips. He was fo far convinced 
 in his own idea, that it was an infringe- 
 ment of the rights and liberties of the fub- 
 jefts of this conftitution, that he would 
 move it fliould be rejected. 
 
 The Duke of Manchefter was in favour 
 of the bill ; he was fo fatisfied of its necef- 
 iity, that he was refolved to give it his 
 moft hearty fupport. He believed the 
 Company in their ftatement had fet forth 
 many articles that never would be forth- 
 coming He would not fay, that due from 
 the Court of France for French prifoners 
 was of a defperate kind ; but he feared the 
 receipt was not fo very certain, for when 
 he had preffed for it, they had made a claim 
 of a large fum for damages done by the In- 
 dia Company by filling up the ditch at 
 Chenadogore. He did not mean to con- 
 demn this meafure ; it might be defenfible 
 in politics, although they had no right 
 
 what-
 
 C "7 1 
 
 whatever for fuch a proceeding, and it ad- 
 mitted an argument againft the demand of 
 the India Company. The French Court 
 had not omitted taking that advantage, and 
 therefore he did not think it ought to be 
 ftated as cam in hand; our fituation in In- 
 dia, he was clear, made it very requifite for 
 fome fuch regulation as was propofed by 
 the bill ; and unlefs that, or fomcthing of 
 equal propriety, took place, would be found 
 to lie in the utmoft danger. 
 
 Lord Rawdon begged the indulgence of v 
 the Houfe while he fhould give his fenti- 
 ments upon the bill ; he would not confider 
 it in the many points of view in which it 
 had been fo often held up ; with refpeft to 
 the bankruptcy of the Company, the necef- 
 iity or preffing occafion for paffing it, but 
 merely confine himfelf to the (ingle point 
 of its policy ; he would not contend that 
 there had not been great rapacity commit- 
 ted by the fervants of the Company in In- 
 dia, and that fome regulations were not very 
 much wanted ; but he would contend, this 
 
 bill
 
 C 
 
 bill would not be productive of thefe requi- 
 lite regulations ; it would rather be produc- 
 tive of an influence in this country which 
 no Minifter ought to be intruded with. 
 Did their Lordfhips confider what the pa- 
 tronage of India was ? this patronage was 
 to be vefted in the hands of feven gentle- 
 men, who, it was natural to fuppofe were 
 the friends of the Minifter, and: therefore 
 the patronage was ultimately in him; iffo, 
 it was an influence too g r eat for any Mini- 
 fler to be trufted with ; and if he ihould go 
 but of office, any other adminiftration 
 would be but a fhadow againft him. That 
 great boaft of Englifh liberty, the guardians 
 of the people, the Houfe of Commons, he 
 found would no longer be an independent 
 body, but would contain a corrupt, and 
 influenced majority. This he thought a 
 fufficient reafon for their Lordfhips to af- 
 fume their dignity, and reject' a bill that had 
 fuch an apprehenfive profpecT: for its ten- 
 dency. His objection to it arofe not from 
 party motives ; he wifhed not for any fuch 
 connexion ', but, from the principle of the 
 
 bill
 
 [ "9 ] 
 
 bill itfelf, and that fuch a bill, fraught with 
 fuch influence, (hould meet with fupport in 
 noble Lords who had flood forth its ad- 
 vocates, was to him very furprifing ; one of 
 them, the noble Lord at the head of the 
 Treafury, f whom he had the higheft 
 opinion, nor was his veneration for the 
 character of another n^ble Lord, who filled 
 ;a high office in adminiftration, lefs; that 
 they {hould give fanction to a meafure 
 which was palpably the meafure of a Minif- 
 ter ; and for what purpofe ?r If their Lord- 
 ihips faw it in the fame point of view he 
 did, they would, like him, execrate it. He 
 trufted, therefore, for their own honour, 
 for the purity of the conftitution, and rights 
 and privileges of the people at large, the 
 Houfe would join with him in giving the 
 Commitment of the bill a negative. 
 
 Lord Sandwich paid many compliments 
 to the laft noble Lord, for the candour in 
 which he had fo ably defcanted on the bill; 
 but at the fame time obferved he was from 
 principle, in many points obliged to differ 
 
 from
 
 [ 120 ] 
 
 from him ; he did not perceive the ill con- 
 fequences which the noble Lord apprehend- 
 ed, and he was thoroughly fatisfied of the 
 neceflity for doing fomething fpeedily for 
 thefalvation of the Company. The noble 
 Lord had admitted there were fcenes of 
 rapacity committed in India, which called 
 aloud for a check ; the Director* had been 
 found, by experience, inadequate to the tafk ; 
 their orders were difrcgarded, and their 
 commands held for nothing : he would give 
 their Lordfhips, a particular inftance it 
 happened that one of the Princes, by the 
 death of his father, came to the government 
 of his dominions while a minor; being in 
 friendmip with the Company, they thought 
 they could not do lefs than, as his protector 
 and friend, to fee to his education ; for 
 this purpofe the Directors fent over, that 
 one of the moft able and beft matters mould 
 be procured for his inftrucYion ; and the 
 fervants to whom thefe orders went, obeyed 
 thefe orders ; but how, and who, and what 
 was this well-inftrucled teacher? Would 
 your Lordfhips believe it, they actually put 
 
 him
 
 [ 131 ] 
 
 him under the care of an old woman ; nay, 
 this was not all, but the mop. improper old 
 woman in the country they pafled over 
 his own, and put him under the care of his 
 ftep-mother did not this appear as a plain 
 mockery of the orders they received ? He 
 by no means objected to this tutor, becaufe 
 fhc was a female, for he was aware, and the 
 experience of many of their Lordmips could 
 prove, that the inftructions and affiftance 
 of females was of the greateft fervice, but 
 then it was females who had received an 
 European education, and not one who had 
 been taken from a feraglio, and in a country 
 where they are not allowed to think of a 
 future ftate ; this however was thought 
 a fufficient inftruction for the young Prince, 
 or rather, as it appeared to him, done in 
 direct oppofition to the Directors. Was 
 not this fufficient to (hew their Lordlhips 
 how inadequate the Court of Directors were 
 to the talk of conducting and enforcing 
 regulations for the advantage of the Com- 
 pany ? He had no particular objection to 
 any one of thefe Directors ; and yet he mull 
 R obferve
 
 [ 122 ] 
 
 obferve, that no great things ought to be 
 expected from them, if it was but recolle&ed 
 from what a motley groupe they were elec- 
 ted, men, women, children, young and old, 
 foreigners, Jews, Papifts, and Proteftants; 
 together with the interefts of the different 
 fervants in India, whofe friends were fo 
 numerous, as to render thefe gentlemen 
 here, more their conftituents than their maf- 
 ters ; no wonder then fo little attention 
 was paid to their direction. Thofe who 
 had objected to this bill had argued a great 
 deal on the ftate of their property : he would 
 not fay they were bankrupts, but they had 
 done that, which if any individual merchant 
 had committed, he would have been looked 
 upon as a bankrupt. Bills had become due, 
 and they had not wherewithal to pay them. 
 They had called their creditors together, 
 and afked for time ; with refpeft to taking 
 their property, and vefting it in other hands, 
 it was no more than would happen in private 
 life; their affairs were in that fituation 
 to make them apply to their friends for 
 affiftance, and they had produced to the 
 
 perfons
 
 C 3 3 
 
 perfons agreeable to lend them affiftance, 
 a ftatement of their accounts ; on the exa- 
 mination of which, the friends ft ill are wil- 
 ling to give that afliftance, but obferve 
 your property is greatly mortgaged, your 
 circumftances are greatly mifmanaged : we 
 will extricate you if poffible, yet left we 
 fhould be involved in ruin with you, we 
 will appoint perfons that can he trufted to 
 have the care of the property; this is the 
 plain cafe ; the public are thofe friends, and, 
 doubtltfs ought to have fome fecurity for 
 their truft. His Lordmip dwelt for a con- 
 fiderable time on the enormities committed 
 abroad, defended the bill in a moft able 
 manner, and concluded by recommending it 
 as worthy the approbation of the Houfe. 
 
 The Duke of Richmond and Lord Wal- 
 fingham rofe together : His Grace begged 
 to be heard firft, becaufe he was anxious to 
 fay a few words, and he was fure from 
 the very valuable fund of information 
 which the noble Lord poflefled upon the 
 fubjecl of India, he fhould have no chance 
 R 2 of
 
 of being attended to by their Lord (hips, 
 if the noble Lord was to fpeak before him. 
 He faid, the Houfe was to be determined 
 by the arguments and proofs, and not by 
 the declamation of Counfel, a term which 
 h.id been ufed by the noble Duke who 
 fpoke before him. That they had proved 
 the affairs of the Company to be far from 
 that ruinous ftate in which they were repre- 
 fented to be. That, after perfonal liberty, 
 private property was firft under the protec- 
 tion of the law. If the Company have com- 
 mitted a&s that warrant a forfeiture of their 
 charter, why not try them before a Court of 
 Judicature ? If they are guilty of criminal 
 offences, let them be arraigned as criminals. 
 The interference of the Legiflature, he in- 
 fifted, was, in fuch cafe, an infraction of 
 liberty ; and though fome cafes might war- 
 rant the interference of the Legiflature, yet 
 that this was not one of that nature. The 
 Company's charter had been renewed only 
 two years back ; gentlemen had purchafed 
 {Jut ftock, relying upon that charter. 
 
 He
 
 C "5 ] 
 
 He had often heard it urged as an argu- 
 ment againft equalizing the land-tax, that 
 eftates had been purchafed under a confi- 
 dence that the Legiflature would not equa- 
 lize it. Would not this argument apply 
 more ftrongly to the prefent cafe of the 
 Proprietors of India Stock, who had pur- 
 chafed under the confidence that Govern- 
 ment would not abrogate or annul a Char- 
 ter, which was only two years fince folemn- 
 ly renewed. This bill, his Grace obferved, 
 was fuppofed by fome noble Lords to be in- 
 tended merely to increafe the power of a 
 certain Secretary, for whom, notwithftand- 
 ing his difference with him in politics, he 
 had a moft fincere friendfhip and efteem. 
 [Here the Duke made fome handfome en- 
 comiums on his honourable relation, which 
 it is needlefs for us to report minutely] ; 
 but howev ? er this bill might tend to increafe 
 the influence of an individual, his principal 
 objection to it, considered in this light, aroie 
 from the dangerous innovation it made in 
 the conftitution, by confounding the pow- 
 ers of Government, and by giving to a 
 
 branch
 
 branch of the legiflative a part of the ex- 
 ecutive power. That this bill placed the 
 government of India in the hands of the 
 Commons, and their Lordfhips need only re- 
 cur to Holland to remark, how improper 
 a democratic aflTembly is to manage the 
 execution of public affairs. He was againft 
 the bill going into a Committee, where a 
 noble Duke, who had fpoken before him, 
 faid, it might be fo altered and modified, 
 as to meet with the concurrence of the 
 Houfe; but, he urged, that no amendments 
 or alterations could be effected to rectify 
 what was in itfelf wrong ab imtio : that he 
 did not approve of the general principle : 
 a vaft continent in India was to be govern- 
 ed by feven Cotnmiffioners, reiident in Bri- 
 tain, who were to tranfmit their orders to 
 officers appointed in India, to carry them 
 into execution. But he appealed to their 
 Lordfhips, if orders, which were exceedingly 
 proper at the moment they were given, 
 might not be highly the reverfe at the 
 moment of execution. No orders were, 
 
 in
 
 C "7 ] 
 
 in fadi, to be implicitly obeyed; and on 
 every trial for difbbedicnce of orders it 
 has always been enquired, whether fuch 
 difobedience of orders was neceffarv or 
 
 i4 
 
 not. He needed not to remind their 
 Lordfhips of a recent tranfa&Jon at Sa- 
 ratoga. Here it was difputed, and remains 
 to this moment a doubt, whether General 
 Burgoyne's orders were peremptory or difcre- 
 tional. Befides, he faw nothing in the bill by 
 which the new Commiffioners were invefted 
 with powers fuperior to thofe of the old Di- 
 rectors; nor did he fee why the power invefted 
 in the Commiilioners, might not as well be 
 confided to the Directors. The evidence, 
 his Grace contended, was partial and infuf- 
 ficient, and that it was abfurd to imagine 
 that their Lordmips could derive an ade- 
 quate information from a few papers laid 
 upon the table, by a member who was pro- 
 feiTedly an advocate for the bill. If a full 
 and fufficient inveftigat'un of the Com- 
 pany's affairs be required, and without fuch 
 full uiveftigation it would be the heighth 
 
 of
 
 C '28 ] 
 
 of injuftice to deprive them of their pro- 
 perty, and annihilate their charter; why 
 not commit it to feven or eight members of 
 the Houfe ? to a fmall committee be- 
 fore which alone, and not before the whole 
 Houfe, fo complicated a detail could be 
 examined and enquired into- with effect. 
 To excufe the violation of the Company's 
 property, it had been urged, that there are 
 two kinds of property ; one pofitive, and the 
 other qualified, in which the public had a 
 {hare or were interefted. But, his Grace 
 maintained, that there is no property in the 
 kindom but what the public has fome in- 
 tereft in ; as it is only of the aggregate pof- 
 feffions of individuals, that the public pro- 
 perty confifts. He infifted, that the Coun- 
 fcl had laid a juft, exact ftatement of the 
 Company's property before their Lord- 
 fiiips ; and in the objections that had been 
 ftated to it, by a noble Lord, who fpoke, 
 laft, he could have wifhed that one circum- 
 ftance had been omitted, viz. the mention 
 of the improbability of recovering a debt 
 from the Court of France ; and he could 
 
 not
 
 [ X2 9 ] 
 
 not but think it improper and impolitic in 
 the noble Duke to introduce it, though he 
 knew not but the noble Duke might be au- 
 thorifed by his inftrucYions to do it, whilft 
 a negotiation, relative to that very demand, 
 was pending ; for it could not be imagined 
 but that the French Miniftry wou^d take 
 the advantage of the AmbafTador's declara- 
 tion, and in confequence of what he faid, 
 be ftill more inclined to difpute the Com- 
 pany's demand, and with-hold the payment 
 of it. 
 
 This called up the Duke of Manchefter, 
 who faid, he fhould be happy to meet the 
 noble Lord who fpoke laft ; and after com- 
 municating to him his inftruftions, convince 
 him that he had neither been guilty of im- 
 prudence or impolicy, in what he had faid 
 relative to the demand made by the Eaft- 
 India Company on the Court of France. 
 He had only urged it as a fallacious ftate- 
 ment, to fet down as cam, what was ftill a 
 matter of litigation; and, to fay the beft 
 of it, doubtful in the iflue. 
 
 S The
 
 [ '3 ] 
 
 The Duke of Richmond, in reply, faid, 
 all he meant was to infinuate the impolicy 
 of touching on a matter in that Houfe, from 
 the difcuifion of which, an advantage might, 
 and moft probably would, be taken by the 
 adverfary. 
 
 The Duke of Mancheiler rofe once more, 
 and delared, that he had divulged nothing 
 that ought to be kept fecret, or that could 
 give the Court of France any advantage in 
 the dilcuffion of the article alluded to. 
 
 Lord Walfingham cbferved, that after 
 the very flattering diflindion, and the ve- 
 ry undeferved compliments that had been 
 beftowed upon him by the noble Duke in, 
 the blue ribband, their Lordmips might be 
 led to expect an ampler difcuffion of the 
 fubjet before them than he was able to 
 give it; it would certainly, therefore, be 
 neceflary for him, to apologize to their 
 Lordmips for the very imperfeft manner in 
 which he fhould deliver his fentiments up- 
 on the rnoft important fubjeft that, per- 
 haps,
 
 haps, had ever engaged their Lordmips' 
 attention. The bill then before the Houfe 
 was a bill which certainly took away from 
 the proprietors of Eaft-India ftock, all ma- 
 nagement or interference in their own af- 
 fairs. It tended, undoubtedly, to depre- 
 ciate the value of their ftock ; becaufe eve- 
 ry proprietor of that Company had certain- 
 ly a right to confider the fhare of pa- 
 tronage, which he heretofore enjoyed, as 
 a part of the rights and privileges to which 
 he was entitled, and that no lawful advan- 
 tage, which the pofleffion of his ftock 
 gave him, was to be forfeited, without de- 
 linquency fully proved againft the Eaft-In- 
 dia Company. Having ftated this very 
 fully, his Lordfhip declared, that, admit- 
 ting the neceffity of the interference of Go- 
 vernment to be apparent, that interference 
 fhould be fuch as the Conftitution of this 
 country knows, and acknowledges. If 
 the controling power, now enjoyed by 
 his Majefty's Minifters, is not fufficient, 
 or if the affairs of India are of fuch a mag- 
 nitude as to require a new eftablifhment, 
 S 2 let
 
 C '_' 1 
 
 let there be appointed a third Secretary of 
 State ; but let the patronage of the Com- 
 pany remain with the Directors and Pro- 
 prietors. I contend, faid his Lordlhip, 
 that if we touch that, we feize their pro- 
 perty. Let this office be eftablifhed, as it 
 ought to be, under the Crown. This 
 country can know no other executive power 
 but that of the Crown. I hold this to be 
 the firft principle of our Conftitution ; and 
 when we eftablifh any other power in the 
 kingdom, we deftroy the Conftitution. 
 There is another point, my Lords, in 
 which I differ moft materially The 
 friends of this bill contend, that the Go- 
 vernment of India ftiould be in this coun- 
 try. It is impoffible, my Lords ; you 
 muft govern India, in India ; and from 
 the moment a contrary fyftem is adopted, 
 the lofs of India will not be very diftant. 
 Do we not all know, my Lords, that the 
 powers of men's minds have been called 
 forth in India, in a very wonderful manner, 
 by the unexpected events which have tran- 
 fpired in that country: but {he moment; 
 
 you
 
 you deprive the Government upon the fpot 
 from difcovering and rewarding merit 
 the moment you fill up all offices in that 
 country from this, thofe great efforts of 
 the human mind, which have been exerted 
 to our admiration and furprife, will appear 
 no longer. Shall Mr. Haftings, or any 
 other Governor General who may fucceed 
 him, be the judge of merit under his own 
 eye; or feven men, at the diftance of 
 twelve thoufand miles from the feat of ac- 
 tion. With refpeft to the ftate of the 
 Company's affairs, one of the reafons af- 
 figned for the prefent bill I think it prof- 
 perous, all circumstances confidered ; nor 
 do I fee how the feven new Directors can 
 fill their Treafury any more than the 
 twenty-four gentlemen who are to be re- 
 moved. As to the mifmanagement of the 
 Company's affairs abroad, that, my Lords, 
 is a wide field. 
 
 I profefs myfelf an admirer, a great ad- 
 mirer of Mr. Haftings ; but, my Lords, 
 I am not fo enthufiaftic an admirer of that 
 
 gentle-
 
 [ '34 ] 
 
 gentleman as to fuppofe, that, in the twelve 
 years of his government, there are no parts 
 of his conduct not reprehenfible. Not 
 that, my Lords, I will fay, and with 
 confidence, if that great man had been re- 
 moved during the war, we mould not now 
 be difputing as to the mode by which we 
 fhould govern India, becaufe, my Lords, 
 we mould not have had India to govern. 
 The noble Earl (Sandwich) has given 
 your Lordfhips a long account of enor- 
 mities committed in India, but he has 
 totally omitted to ftate to your Lordfhips, 
 , the dates of the fcveral tranfacYtons he has 
 mentioned. He tells you, my Lords, that 
 Mr. Haflings, whofe name, by the by, 
 the noble Lord did not mention, though 
 he profeifed to have a high opinion of 
 him ; but he tells you, my Lords, that 
 Mr. Haftings appointed an old woman to^ 
 J>e the guardian of the perfon of the Na- 
 l>ob of Bengal, during his minority; and 
 this is reprefented as a ftrange acl of abfur- 
 dity, or fomething worfe. But, my Lords, 
 Mr. Haftings affigned good and fufficient 
 
 reafons,
 
 t '35 ] 
 
 reafons for his choice. If a native of rank 
 had been appointed, Mr, Haftings dreaded 
 the influence it would give him in Bengal. 
 If a near male relation, he feared for the 
 Nabob's life. The Directors very warmly 
 approved the choice, and the tranfaclion 
 happened in 1772. Whenever your Lord- 
 ihips go into the whole of Mr. Haflings's 
 conduct, you will find thofe parts which 
 now appear reprehenfible, very different 
 from what they are reprefented. I fpeak 
 with refpect of the tranfaclions in another 
 place ; but furely your Lordfliips muft al- 
 low, that the reports of the Seledt Com- 
 mittee carry upon the very face of them v 
 the ftrongeft marks of partiality. To 
 criminate Mr. Haftings, appears the fole 
 end of each report; but, my Lords, has 
 his conduct been fairly reprefented ? I wifh, 
 on fome future day, to fee him at that bar, 
 when I am fure he will recover from your 
 Lordfhips a complete acquittal from all the 
 charges not brought, but infinuated againft 
 him. Look, my Lords, to the great ac- 
 tions of Mr. Haftings, and thofe who fer- 
 
 red
 
 r 13* 
 
 ved under him. My Lords, the campaign 
 in Guzzerat, the capture of Ahmedabad 
 and Bafleen, the ftorm of Sindia's camp, 
 and the other important events which 
 have occurred during the Maratta war, 
 when the officer of Mr. Haftings's choice, 
 General Goddard, commanded the Britifh 
 army, will adorn the page of hiftory in 
 future times. The (eparate army formed 
 by Mr. Haftings to attack the dominions 
 of Madajee Scindia; the capture of the 
 important, and, till then, impregnable for- 
 trefs of Gualior, by Colonel Popham, is 
 an event worthy to be recorded to the lateft 
 times. My Lords, it is abfurd, it is ridicu- 
 lous to fay Mr. Haftings was the author of 
 the Maratta war. It began at Bombay : 
 It was concluded in Bengal. The peace 
 was difapproved of at home. Mr. Haftings 
 was inftrucled to feize the fitteft opportu- 
 nity for breaking the treaty. The noble 
 Earl in the green ribband has faid Mr. 
 Haftings called the Maratta war his war. 
 No, my Lords, he never did ; but he 
 conjured Mr. Francis and Mr. Wheeler, 
 
 as
 
 t '37 J 
 
 as they threw the refponfibility upon hitrtj 
 from a particular period, to permit him to 
 conduft it, and the merit of the peace is all 
 his own. The merit of relieving the Car - 
 natic, to which we owe the prefervation of 
 India, is all his own. Sir Eyre Coote has 
 confefled it. The merit of inducing the 
 Nizam to remain neuter, and of purchaf- 
 ing the march of Colonel Pearfe's army 
 through the Maratta country, is all his 
 own. The time will come, when thefe 
 fervices will be acknowledged. When your 
 Lord (hips (hall make the infurreclion of 
 Benares, or the ftate of the Vizier's coun* 
 try the fubjeft of enquiry, Mn Haf- 
 tings's conducl will then appear in a very 
 different point of view; allowances will 
 be made for the difficulties with which the 
 State was fnrrounded. We were the fove- 
 reigns of Benares, and Mr, Haftings had a 
 right to exaft military fervice from the Ze- 
 mindar. Do your Lordfhips mean, that 
 under no circumftances military fervice is 
 to be exa&ed ? If fo, your empire in India 
 may be fliort indeed.' On fuch a tenure, 
 T no
 
 [. '33 
 
 no Ztm'nlar in India ever flood. It fc 
 in. proof, from the evidence of Captain 
 Harper, to the Select Committee, that 
 Bui want Sing, father of Cheyt Sing, al- 
 ways furnimed his quota of military force 
 to his Sovereign in time of war, indepen- 
 dent of the annual revenue he paid we 
 became the Sovereign we had a right to 
 exaft military fervice, and it was ftriclly 
 conformant to the conftitution of the Mogul 
 empire. My Lords, if I view Mr. Haf- 
 tings as a financier, how much reafon (hall 
 I have to admire his conduft ? When he 
 arrived in Bengal in 1772, the Company 
 owed upon bond, one million three hun- 
 dred thoufand pounds : this debt he paid off. 
 I refpect the memories of the gentlemen 
 who were fent to India in 1774, and died 
 there ; but unfortunate was it indeed for 
 this country, that they fo very early differ- 
 ed from Mr. Haftings, and carried their 
 differencies to fo great a height If they 
 had not, Bengal would have been the firft 
 Government in the world. Can there, 
 my Lord?, be a greater proof of Mr. Haf- 
 
 tings's
 
 tings* s knowledge of the revenues of Ben- 
 gal than this ? That he has actually increaf- 
 ed them one million fterling, and preferred 
 his own provinces in tranquillity, though 
 war has defolated other parts of India. 
 Let not your Lordfhips be carried away 
 by idle declamation ' examine into fadts, 
 and you will find that Bengal is in a flou- 
 rifhing fituation; and that, perhaps, no 
 country has improved fo much as that has 
 done, fince Mr. Haftings governed it, 
 though he came there only two years after 
 a deftru&ive famine, which had fwept 
 away above a third of the inhabitants of 
 Bengal. Peace is now completely reftored 
 retrenchments in expence have taken 
 place in every department ; and in a very 
 few years our fituation 3n India will be more 
 flourifhing than ever, if we do not ruin 
 that country by the meafures adopted in 
 this. I know no man but Mr. Haftings 
 who can reduce your expences, and pay off 
 your debts in India. He will do it, I am 
 confident, if he is properly and conftantly 
 Supported from home ; and therefore I can* 
 T 2 not
 
 t 
 
 not approve a bill, which has for its objeft 
 the removal and difgrace of fo great a man, 
 were my other objections, which are invin^ 
 cible, done away. 
 
 The Earl of Derby followed, and fur>- 
 ported the bill upon the neceffity there was 
 for checking the public delinquency of the 
 fervants of the Company in India. He ad- 
 duced a variety of letters and extracts to 
 prove the barbarity that had been exercifed 
 in that country; then went into the tranf- 
 a&ions of Mr. Haftings with Cheyt Sing, 
 whofe conduct he highly reprobated, both 
 for cruelty and breach of public faith to 
 that prince; and after dwelling for a confi- 
 derable time on the different proceedings of 
 the Councils of Bengal, Madras, and Bom- 
 bay, all of whom he charged with a va- 
 riety of delinquency at different periods, 
 from 1/63, he concluded with faying, that 
 he fa w how the bill was to go; and it was 
 au appearance which in his mitid was moft 
 alarming to the independence of Parlia- 
 ; for without referring to any particu- 
 lar
 
 C 
 
 lar rumour, and .without mentioning or 
 alluding to the name of any Peer, he muft 
 fay that the circumftances attending that 
 bill fhewed, that there had been an interfe- 
 rence of a moil unconftitutional kind. What 
 elfe could there have been, when they favy 
 that after members had pledged themfelves 
 in the moft facred and unequivocal manner 
 to the fupport of this bill, they fhould now 
 change their opinion and adl againft it ? To 
 what could fuch conduct be afligned, but an 
 interference which their Lordfhips ought 
 to dread more than any calamity that could 
 be derived from the operation of this bill, 
 admitting even that its operation fhould be 
 as calamitous as it was ftated to be. Better 
 that the territories of India fliould for ever 
 be loft to this country, than that an inter ^ 
 pofition (hould exift by which the in- 
 dependence of this Houfe fhould be de- 
 ft royed. 
 
 Lord Camden faid, that he came down 
 unfolicited, and unconnected, to delives 
 Jus candid and independent opinion on the 
 
 bill.
 
 C 
 
 till. He declared himfelf an enemy to its 
 principle, for it was a moft violent infringe- 
 ment of the property of the greateft Com- 
 pany in the world. It in faft deprives them 
 of their' property; for though under the 
 bill, there was a fpecious appearance of the 
 'property being preferred for the benefit of the 
 Company, yet, when it was confidered that 
 that property was to be put in truft ; that 
 it Was to be managed by others; and that 
 thofe who were to manage it, were neither 
 to be appointed nor controled by the Pro- 
 prietors, their Lordfhips would believe that 
 it was in fa6t a deprivation of property: for 
 if a fteward, or truftee was placed in the 
 pofTtilion of their Lordfhips' rents and rights, 
 and that (reward or truftee was neither to 
 be dependent on, nor to be controled by 
 them, would they imagine that they had 
 any available property in their eftates? It 
 was the quality of property to be fubject 
 only to the owner. It changed its nature 
 when he loft his authority over it. A 
 perfon who had delivered his property over 
 to the management of another in truft, 
 
 might,
 
 [ '43 ] 
 
 might, indeed, have a certain annual benefit 
 from it, but he was not the independent 
 pofleflbr of his own property, for he could 
 not convert it to his own ufes, -nor take 
 any advantage from it, but his annual 
 ftipend. 
 
 This bill, therefore, pronounced either a 
 commiffion of bankruptcy, or of lunacy on 
 the Company. It pronounced them to be 
 either unable, from want of property, 
 to proceed in their trade, or from 
 want of mental capacity. The only argu- 
 ment for this violent meafure was, that of 
 neceflity; a plea which had been ufed by 
 every Minifter, good and bad, and alfo by 
 every King for the worfl and moft atrocious 
 afts that were ever perpetrated. Neceffity 
 was one of thofe vague terms which 
 might always be ufed with or without mean- 
 ing ; but in this cafe nothing could be ad- 
 mitted as an argument, but a great State V 
 neceflity. Did fuch a necefliry exift ? He 
 believed not ; or at leaft it did not appear 
 on the face of their proceedings, or on any * 
 
 of
 
 U4 
 
 of the grounds which had been exhibited. 
 The Company were not proved to be in a 
 bankrupt ftate. They had produced a ftate- 
 ment of their finances. They had fhewn 
 that by the calamities of war they had fuf- 
 fered a lofs of feveral millions, in confe- 
 quence of exertions which operated to the 
 advantage of this country. They had 
 fhewn that their embarraflTmcnts were' 
 merely temporary ; their creditors were not 
 clamorous; their circumftances were not 
 defperate. Nothing was more common in 
 the contingencies of a merchant's fortune, 
 than that in a hard run upon his credit, he 
 fhould call together his friends, expofe his 
 circumftances, and when his creditors found 
 that his bottom was good, to give him 
 time, and rank him in the fame folid efti- 
 mation as before. This was exaclly the 
 Company's cafe. They wanted nothing 
 but indulgence for a fhort time; they ex^ 
 pofed their books to Government for the 
 purpofe of convincing them that their credit 
 was good; aud no neceffity appeared that 
 juftified the violent infringement attempted 
 by this bill. 
 
 Did
 
 t '45 ] 
 
 Did there a neceffity exift of another 
 kind ? Were the prefent conductors of the 
 Company's affairs incapable of managing 
 them ? He faid, they were not proved by 
 any evidence that he had feen to be incapa- 
 ble. Nothing had even been imputed of 
 blame to the Court of Directors. They 
 were acknowledged to have written their 
 <3ifpatches with the moft fenfible policy; 
 and to have ftudied, purfued, and accorn- 
 plifhed the real interefts of the Company. 
 But certain abufes were mentioned, and 
 the conduct of Mr. Haftings was brought 
 forward, to prove how (harmfully the af- 
 fairs of the Company had been adrainifter- 
 ed in India. Without entering into the 
 queftion of Mr. Haftings, who was, by 
 the bye, the foul of our fuccefs in India, 
 he afked, if, when Government interfered, 
 they had been able to punifh guilt more 
 than the Court of Directors ? He inftanced 
 the cafe of the perfons conyuSed for the 
 treatment of Lord Pigqt. When ]thofe 
 men came into the court to receive iudff- 
 
 J Cj 
 
 ment, they came with their pocket books 
 
 foil of bank notes, and propofed with as 
 
 U much
 
 [ , 4 6 ] 
 
 j much facility to pay 20,000!. as they paid 
 loool. Was this the inftance by which 
 the officers in India were to be taught, that 
 they were not to commit crimes with im- 
 punity ? It was idle to talk of the guilt of 
 the Court of Directors in fuch inftances as 
 thefe, when Government had, in faft, giv- 
 en their countenance to every meafure of 
 the Directors for many years paft. Give the 
 Court of Directors the power that is given by 
 this bill to the feven new Directors, and 
 try if then they will not be able to regulate 
 the affairs of the Company in India. Free 
 them from the controul of the Proprietary, 
 and fubjecl their difpatches to the perufal 
 of Minilters, and you will not be oppofed 
 by all men, as adding the part of violators 
 and deftroyers of rights fecured by charters. 
 In no part of this whole bufinefs did there 
 / appear any other neceflity for the bill, but 
 the neceffity that Minifters muft keep their 
 places. This was the only neceflity which 
 appeared ; and that that was the only necef- 
 fity which had given rife to the bill, appear- 
 ed from one claufe of it -that which gave 
 the Minifter the power pf appointing to 
 
 every
 
 [ '47 3 
 
 every office in India, great and fmall. 
 The influence of the Crown had been cur- 
 tailed by certain bills, arid they required 
 this bill to fupply the place of thofe ads 
 which diminiftied the influence arid, in- 
 deed, it did it in a rhoft ample manner. He 
 called the Houfe to remember what pains, 
 what efforts they had ufed to gain thofe 
 points ; and were they now to pafs a bill 
 which granted more patronage than was 
 pofleffed by almoft any potentate in Eu- 
 rope ? He fpoke of the Marquis of Rock- 
 ing's fteady perfeverance to the end in the 
 doftrines of Whiggifm, and lamented that 
 fome of thofe who called themfelves his 
 friends, (hould now favour a lyftem fo 
 inimical to that fyftem which it had been 
 the labour and end of that great man's life 
 to eftablifli. 
 
 Earl Fitzwiiliarh entered at considerable 
 length into the arguments for the bill, and 
 to (hew that the Company's finances were 
 indeed fuch as to call for the immediate in- 
 terferende of Parliament ; he enumerated a 
 variety of objections to the. ftatement of 
 U 2 their
 
 C us 
 
 their affairs, pointing out the fallacies of 
 their account, and (hewing that they were 
 not on-ly in great arid urgent neceffities, 
 but that, without the prefent interpolation, 
 they mufl be precipitated to ruin. He re- 
 ferred to What the noble Lord had faid of 
 the principles and purity of the Marquis of 
 Rockingham. He paid him the warmeft 
 compliments. Yes, that noble Lord was 
 always againft the unneceifary and corrupt 
 influence of the Crown. He had conftant- 
 ly been for the diminution of the power of 
 corruption; but was he an enemy to 
 liable and permanent government r No 
 2.s he wifhed for order, for regulation, 
 for peace, and all the comforts of a go- 
 vernment foundly adrniniftered, he wiflied 
 to fee Adminiftration fupported by fair, 
 public, and refponfible influence. If that 
 noble Marquis had perceived the fort of 
 influence which was now but too apparent, 
 he would have condemned it with more 
 energy, with more determination, and con- 
 lidered it with more alarm than he could 
 exprefs in words. His mind, filled and 
 actuated by the motives of Whiggifm, 
 would ill brook to fee a dark and fecret in- 
 fluence
 
 . , ,.,. 149 
 
 fllience exerting itfelf againft the indepen- 
 dence of Parliament, and the authority of 
 Minifters. 
 
 Lord King fpoke againft the bill, and 
 with confiderable heat demanded, if, as it 
 was faid, that certain Peers were influenced 
 by fecret and unavowed means, he was 
 ranked among the number* He dared any 
 man to fay that he was di&ated to in his 
 opinion on this or upon any other occafion. 
 
 Lord Gage fupported the bill on the 
 fame independent ground. He had connec- 
 tions with no Minifters. He had received 
 favours from none fince the days of his 
 friend the Duke of Newcaftle. 
 
 The Earl of Radnor oppcfed the bill as 
 a moft violent infringement on the liberties 
 of the Company, and, with theirs, on the 
 liberties of the people. 
 
 The P/iihop of Salifbury faid, that if 
 nifters would fay that in the Committee, 
 fome daufes to which he objected would 
 be expunged, he would vote for the com- 
 
 mitment.
 
 3 
 
 mitment. He mentioned what thofe claufes 
 were. He thought the principle of the bill 
 a good one. 
 
 The Earl of Carlifle faid* that on the 
 ejueftion of commitment it was impoffible 
 to fay what the Committee would do. 
 
 The Earl of Coventry then moved, that 
 the bill be rejected. 
 
 Some converfation occurred on art ex- 
 preffion thrown out by Earl Fitzwilliam 
 in the preceding debate, which being fatif- 
 faclorily explained, the queftion was put', 
 and the bill rejected without a fecond di- 
 vitlon. 
 
 The following is an accurate LIST of 
 the Divifion in the Houfe of LORDS on 
 Monday laft ; and alfo of the Divifion 
 on Wednefday: 
 
 MONDAY, December 15. 
 
 HOUSE of LORDS on the INDIA 
 BILL, it was moved to adjourn. 
 
 CONTENTS. 
 
 Abps. Canterbury Dukes of Richmond Dukes of Brandon 
 Yotk Rutland Chandos 
 
 Dukes
 
 Duke$ of Dorfet 
 
 Earl of Clarendon 
 
 Lords Walfinghaa, 
 
 Bridgewatcr 
 
 Bathurft 
 
 Camden 
 
 Claris of Salilbury 
 
 Ailefbury 
 
 Amherft 
 
 Denbigh 
 
 Vif. Weymouth 
 
 Thurlo\v 
 
 Winchelfea 
 
 Sackville 
 
 Brudenell 
 
 Chefterfield 
 
 Bifhops of Salisbury 
 
 Grantlcy 
 
 EfTex 
 
 Rochefter 
 
 Rawdon ~^ 
 
 Doncafter 
 
 Worcefter 
 
 Sydney 6| 
 
 Abingdon 
 
 Chefter 
 
 BY PROXY. 
 
 Coventry 
 
 Exeter 
 
 Duke of Leeds 
 
 Galloway 
 
 Lincoln 
 
 Queenfberry 
 
 Aberdeen 
 
 Litcjifield and Co- 
 
 Northumberland 
 
 Dunmore 
 
 ventry 
 
 Marquis. of Lothiaa 
 
 Marchmont 
 
 Lords AbeVgavenny Earls of Pembroke 
 
 Ferrers 
 
 De Perrafs 
 
 Stanhope 
 
 Tank'srville 
 
 Percy 
 
 Waldegrave 
 
 Aylsford 
 
 Paget 
 
 Darlington 
 
 Harborough 
 
 St. John 
 
 Hilllborough 
 
 Macclesfield 
 
 Ofborne 
 
 Vifc. WentwortU 
 
 Effingham 
 
 Romney 
 
 Cpurtenay 
 
 Brooke 
 
 King 
 
 Bifliops of London 
 
 Gower 
 
 Talbot 
 
 Durham 
 
 Temple 
 
 Chedworth 
 
 Bangor 
 
 Harcourt 
 
 Vere 
 
 Lords Say and Sele 
 
 Cornwallis 
 
 Grantham 
 
 Middleton 
 
 Dclawar 
 
 Scari'dalc 
 
 Fortefcue - 
 
 Radnqr 
 
 Bofton 
 
 Hawke 1 3 
 
 Chatham 
 
 Beaulieu 
 
 
 NOT CONTENTS. 
 
 Prince of Wales 
 
 Earls of Powis 
 
 Bp. of Oxford 
 
 Dukes of Devonfhire 
 
 I/auderdale 
 
 St. David's 
 
 Portland 
 
 Dartmouth 
 
 Glouceftar 
 
 Manchefter 
 
 Buckinghamfhirc 
 
 Briftol 
 
 Earls of Derby 
 
 Fitzwilliam Lords Audley 
 
 Suffolk 
 
 Egremont 
 
 Cravea 
 
 Weftmoreland 
 
 Ilchefter 
 
 Boyle 
 
 Peterborough 
 
 Spencer 
 
 Cadogan 
 
 Stamford 
 
 Mansfield 
 
 Monfon 
 
 Sandwich 
 
 Vifcounts Hereford 
 
 Mont fort 
 
 Carlifle 
 
 Townlhend 
 
 Sandys 
 
 Plymouth 
 
 Stormont 
 
 Ponfonby 
 
 Scarborough 
 
 Maynard 
 
 Wai pole 
 
 Jerfey 
 
 Hampdcn 
 
 Sondcs 
 
 Cholmondclcy 
 
 Keppel 
 
 Pelham 
 
 Glencairn 
 
 Bp. of Wincheftcr 
 
 Vcrnon 
 
 Caifilis 
 
 Peterborough 
 
 Cardiff 
 
 
 
 Lord*
 
 torrfs Brmvnlow Puke of Athol 
 
 Earl of North'mgton 
 
 Harrowby Earls of Exttcr 
 
 Vifcount Lcinttcr 
 
 Fley 
 
 Oxford 
 
 Bifliop', of Carlifle 
 
 JLoughborough 
 
 Eglingtoun 
 
 Norwich 
 
 Gage 
 
 Rofeberry 
 
 Lords Willoughby 
 
 Bagot 5 7 
 
 Suffer 
 
 Teynham 
 
 BY PROXY. 
 
 Harrington 
 
 Onflow 
 
 -pukes of Bolton 
 
 Guildford 
 
 Rivers 
 
 Marl borough 
 
 Hardwicke 
 
 Bagot *^- 
 
 Gordon 
 
 Fauconberg >/ 
 
 If 
 
 CONTE 
 
 Peers 
 proxies 
 
 NTS, 
 
 75 
 
 HOT CONTENTS. 
 
 -~ 5* 
 
 Proxies - 14 
 
 WE D N E s D A Y, December 1 7. 
 That the faid BILL be reje^ed. 
 
 CONTENTS. 
 
 PROXIES, 
 As before 
 
 Add 
 
 Earl of Oxford 
 Lord Caere 
 
 A before 69 Earl, of Mansfield 
 
 Deduft Vifcount Stormont 
 
 Bp. of Rochefter i Howe 
 
 Lord Grofvenor 
 68 Milton 
 Add 
 
 Duke of Ancafter 
 Earl of Abercorn 
 
 NOT 
 
 As before 57 Add PROXIES 
 
 Deduft Earl of Huntingdon As before 
 
 Pnnce of Wales Hertford Deduft 
 
 Earl of Egmont Vifcount Montagu Earl of Oxford 
 
 Mansfield Lor d Stawell Hardwick 
 
 Vifcount Stormont 4 Lord Rivers 
 
 _4 
 
 53 
 
 CONTENTS. 
 
 it
 
 rm L-9 
 -l, > 42(851> 

 
 DS 
 
 465 
 
 A5' 
 
 1783 
 
 cop.l 
 
 UC SOUTHERN REGIONAL LIBRARY FACILITY 
 
 A 000 965 039