HC 517 A17A5 1883 Cape of Good Hope House lelect Committee on Location Act >j Report 1883 [BRARY fHE UNIVERSITY OF CAL [FORNIA LOS ANGELES CAPE HOPE, REPORT OF THE SELECT COMMITTED OX THE ATIVE LOCATIONS ACTS. Ordered by the House of Assembly to be printed. 1883. CAPE TOWN : W. A. BICHARUS & SONS, GOVERNMENT PRINTERS. 1883. A. 26. '83. NATIVE LOCATIONS ACTS. CAPE OF GOOD HOPE, REPORT OF THE SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE Ordered by the House of Assembly to le printed. 1883. CAPE TOWN : W. A. KICHARUS & SONS, GOVERNMENT PRINTERS, 1883. A. 26. '83. NATIVE LOCATIONS ACTS. He sn 111 4/7 AT REPORT OF THE SELECT COMMITTEE on the Native Locations Act Amendment Bill, appointed by Orders of the House of Assembly, dated the 25th and 31st July, 1883, to enquire into the Location Acts, and to report in what respects these Acts can be amended ; the Committee to have power to take Evidence and call for Papers ; and to consist of the COLONIAL SECRETARY, the SECRE- TARY FOR NATIVE AFFAIRS, and Messrs. IRVINE, HOCKLY, FROST, RHODES, FULLER, and W. AYLIFF. Your Committee have had under consideration the Native Locations Act of 1876, and the Amendment Act, 1878, referred to them, and, after having taken evidence on the subject, recommend : 1. That all huts occupied by natives, except those in the lona fide and continuous employment of the owner or occu- pier of such laud, shall come under the provisions of the Location Acts ; provided that natives working lands on shares on any farm shall not be considered as in bona fide employ. 2. That a fixed annual amount of ten shillings be charge- able for all such huts on private property, and the proprietor of the land to be liable for the amount. 3. That the system of registration of stock be insisted on, as necessary for the working of the Acts. 4. That in civil prosecutions for theft committed by a tenant resident in a Native Location on private property, the proprietor of the land on which such location is placed, should be liable for any amouDt not recoverable from the thief. 5. That the existing Acts be amended in accordance with the above recommendations. WILLIAM AYLIFF, Chairman, Committee Rooms, House of Assembly, 6th September, 1883. PKOCEEDINGS OF COMMITTEE, PROCEEDINGS of the SELECT COMMITTEE on the Native Locations Act Amendment Bill appointed by Orders of the House of Assembly, dated the 25th and 31st July, 1883, to enquire into the Location Acts, and to report in what respects these Acts can be amended ; Committee to have power to take Evidence and call for Papers ; and to consist of the COLONIAL SECRETARY, the SECRETARY FOR NATIVE AFFAIRS, and Messrs. IRVINE, HOCKLY, FROST, EHODES, FULLER, and W. AYLIFF. Thursday, 9th August, 1883. PRESENT : Secretary for Native Affairs, Mr. Irvine, Mr. Fuller, Frost. W. Ayliff, Clerk read Orders of the House, dated the 25th and 31st July, 1883, appointing the Committee. Resolved, That Mr. W. Ayliff be Chairman of the Committee. Clerk laid on the Table, (1.) Bill to alter and amend in certain respects the "Native Locations Amendment Act, 1878." [A.B. 13 '83.] (2.) Act No. 2 of 1869, To make provision for the more easy collection of: Hut-tax. (3.) Act No. 10 of 1870, To provide for the management of Native Locations and other communities, and for the regulation of Rights of Commonage. (4.) Act No. 6 of 1876, To provide for the better and more effectual supervision and management of Native Locations. (5.) Act No. 8 of 1878, To amend and add to the provisions of Native Locations Act, 1876. (6.) Act No 40 of 1879, To provide for the disposal of Lands forming Native Locations. Resolved, To take the evidence of the Secretary for Native Affairs, and request him to attend at next meeting and furnish the Committee with Papers and Documents respecting the operation of the Native Locations Acts. Committee adjourned until Tuesday next at 11 a.m. VI PROCEEDINGS Ol 1 COMMUTE!:. , l-lth Axyusf, 1883. Mr. Frost, ,, Irvine, ,, Fuller, PRESENT : Mr. AV. AYLIFF (Chairman). Secretary for Native Affairs, Mr. Hockly, ,, Rhodes. Hon. J. W. Saner, Secretary for Native Affairs, examined, and put in further reports, correspondence and returns, concerning Native Inspectors [G. 90 '82]. Committee adjourned till Monday at 11 '30 a.m. Monday, '20th August, 1883. PRESENT : Mr. W. AYLIFF (Chairman). Secretary for Native Affairs, Mr. Frost, ,, Hockly. Chairman stated that Mr. Irvine desired the Committee to be in- formed that he was unable to attend at this meeting. Committee deliberated. Resolved, To examine the Chairman, and Mr. Irvine, M.L.A., at the next meeting of the Committee. Committee adjourned till Thursday at 11 a.m. Thursday, 23rd August, 1883. PRESENT : Mr. W. AYLIFF (Chairman). Secretary for Native Affairs, Mr. Hockly, Mr. Irvine, ,, Frost, ,, Rhodes. Mr. J. J. Irvine, M.L.A., examined. Committee in deliberation. Committee adjourned till Monday at 10 a.m. Monday, 2~th August, 1883. Mr. Frost, ,, Hockly, PRESENT : Mr. W. AYLIFF (Chairman). Mr. Irvine, Secretary for Native Affairs. Mr. J. J. Irvine, M.L.A., further examined. Committee adjourned till Wednesday at 10 a.m. rKOCEJiDiNUS OF COMMI1TEE. Yll . 29 fh August, 1883. PRESENT : Mr. FROST (in the Chair). Mr. Hockly, \ Mr. Irvine. Eesolvecl, That in the absence of the Chairman Mr. Frost take the Chair. Committee deliberated. Resolved, To request the Secretary for Native Affairs to attend the next meeting of the Committee, and to bring with him, or otherwise to forward, for the information of the Committee, any memoranda he may have on the subject of proposed amendments in the Native Loca- tion Acts. Committee adjourned till Friday at 11 a.m. Mr. Hockly, ,, Irvine, Friday, 31st Auc/uat, 1883. PRESENT : Mr. "W. AYLIFF (Chairman). Mr. Frost, Secretary for Native Affairs. Hon. J. W. Saner, M.L.A., Secretary for Native Affairs, was examined. Committee adjourned till Wednesday next at 11 a.m. Wednesday, 5th September, 1883. PRESENT : Mr. W. AYLIFF (Chairman). Mr. Frost, ,, Irvine, Mr. Hockly, ,, Fuller. Committee in deliberation. Eesolved, That the Chair eport for consideration at tt Committee adjourned till to-morrow at 12 noon. Eesolved, That the Chairman be requested to bring up a draft Eeport for consideration at the next meeting of the Committee, vin raocEEDixos or COMMITTEE. Thursday, 6th September, 1883. PRESENT : Mr. "W. AYLIFF (Chairman). Mr. Frost, Mr. Hocldy. In-ine, | Head letter from Secretary for Native Affairs expressing regret at being imable to attend this morning. Chairman submitted following draft Report : Your Committee have had under consideration the Native Locations Act of 1876, and the Amendment Act, 1878, referred to them, and after having taken evidence on the subject, recommend : (i.) That all huts occupied by natives except those in the bona fde and continuous employment of the owner or occupier of such land, shall come under the provisions of the Location Acts. (ii.) That a fixed annual amount of ten shillings be chargeable for all such huts on private property, and the proprietor of the land to be liable for the amount, (iii.) That the system of registration of stock be insisted on as necessary for the working of the Acts. (iv.) That in civil prosecutions for theft committed by a tenant resident in a native location on private property, the proprietor of the land on which such location is placed should be liable for any amount not recoverable from the thief. (v.) That the existing Acts be amended in accordance with the above recommendations. Mr. Irvine moved an amendment : To add the following proviso to the first clause : " Provided that natives working lands on shares on any farm shall not be considered as in bona fide employ." Agreed to. Resolved, That the draft Report as amended, be adopted, and the Chairman instructed to bring up the same to the House. W. AYLIFF, Chairman. MINUTES OF EVIDENCE SELECT COMMITTEE ON NATIVE LOCATIONS ACTS. Tuesday, \kth August, 1883. PRESENT : Mr. W. AYLIFF (Chairman), Mr. Frost, ,, Irvine, Fuller, Mr. Hockly, Rhodes. Hon. J. W. Saner, M.L.A., Secretary for Native Affairs, examined. 1. Chairman^ You are a member of the House of The Hon. Assembly for the electoral division of Aliwal North, and 7> M^L.A!^' the Secretary for Native Affairs ? Yes. Aug. 14, 1883. 2. lou were asked to give us some papers relating to the working of the Native Locations Act ? Yes, I am having some papers prepared which I will send in later. I have, however, brought a blue-book with me containing returns furnished by the Inspector of Native Locations in the King William's Town division, which I put in [Of. 90 '82.], and I will ask the Committee in considering the question before it to be good enough to refer to that book. 3. Does this relate only to King William's Town ? Yes. I shall have other returns prepared for the various other locations, which will be submitted to the Committee. 4. Do you think, generally, that the operation of the Native Locations Acts is useful to the country ? With one or two exceptions I do not think they have ever been carried out, that is, the provisions of the Acts in their entirety. A. 26 '83. NATIVE LOCATIONS ACTS. c Z MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE The Hon. 5 D oes that arise from any defects in the Acts thera- MvL.A. ' selves, or from the inefficiency of those appointed to carry , them out ? In some cases owing to the fault of the In- AUg. 14, looo. -- . - . . . spectors, but generally, I think, it is not practicable to carry out all the provisions of the Acts. 6. The principle element in the Acts is general over- sight of natives living in locations, is it not ? That is a matter of opinion. Mr. Bright, the late Under Secretary for Native Affairs, was evidently not of that opinion, for I find in a letter appointing Inspectors in the King Wil- liam's Town division he says that the chief duties of Inspectors of native locations connected with the carrying out of the Acts are to furnish accurate, descriptive returns of stock and other property in all locations, and a return of the increase and decrease of stock. What I believe to be very necessary, and what is practicable is a strict supervision over the natives ; but that, as the Acts now stand, is only a part of the duty of Inspectors, and could in my opinion be performed even if these Acts were not in existence. 7. Does not the registration of huts, and inhabitants, and stock imply the idea of general supervision ? It would seem so. 8. Do you consider that this has not been carried out ? I am not prepared to say that a general supervision was not carried out, because it is very difficult to find proof or otherwise of that, but I do say that the provisions of the Acts in their entirety were not carried out, generally, and were very far from being carried out. 9. But the instructions given to the inspectors of native locations were based upon the Acts that aro in operation ? Yes ; that is as contained in Mr. Blight's letter of the 3rd April, 1883. 10. You consider that control and supervision of the natives is desirable ? Yes. 11. One of the defects in the Act generally felt is that all natives in a division don't come under the provisions of the Acts ? Yes ; as the law now stands, the supervision and operation of the Acts can, to a considerable extent, be evaded. If there is to be supervision, I think it should extend to all. SELECT COMMITTEE ON NATIVE LOCATIONS ACTS. 12. Have you had any idea, in your official capacity, of amending the Act for that purpose ? Yes. I have had, ' M.'L.A. for some time, under consideration the question of amend- Au(r ~^7~ 1883 ing the existing Acts. 13. You have felt the inconvenience, and have thought it desirable that a remedy should be applied ? I think that supervision should, if applied to some, be extended to all ; but, as I have already said, I don't mean by that to imply that I think the Acts, as they now exist, should be made applicable everywhere, but rather that the amendments I proposed should be made law. 14. You think the Acts are not applicable everywhere ? -Yes. 15. Could you indicate the direction in which the Native Locations Acts are not applicable, seeing you stated that you consider control desirable? In the first place the Acts are only applicable where the locations have been pro- claimed, and in the second place they are not applicable, I think, where the huts are less than five in number within a prescribed area. 16. And it was to remedy this defect that you contem- plated an amended Act. ? Yes ; by which, amongst other things, the supervision should be extended generally. 17. Mr. Frost. ~\ I understood you to say that you had a draft Bill ? Yes. 18. And you still have it? Yes ; I think so. 19. In what directions should you propose alterations in that draft Bill ? As I have said, I don't think it is prac- ticable to carry out the previous Location Acts as they exist now, and the direction in which I proposed going was to do away with several provisions of the Acts as they now exist, for instance, the branding, the descriptive returns of stock, and some other provisions, and retaining the re- gister of huts, of population, and of stock, which would give the Inspector more time to go about his district and exercise supervision, and enable him to be better acquainted with what transpired in his location, and also, where loca- tions are on private property, to make the owner of that property alone responsible for his contribution towards the payment of the salary of the Inspector. 20. Did you propose that the owner of the property c 2 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 7 r Soter pay the 20s. under the Act ? It is proposed that a M.L.A. ' fixed sum at say 10s. per hut should be collected from the owner of the Property. 21. And you think it would be advisable to do away with the description of the stock? I don't think it is possible to keep it in so efficient a manner as to be a check, and I don't believe it has ever been done, judging from the returns I have seen. I think it was attempted in one case to be efficiently done. 22. I think you stated before there was one Inspector who carried out the Act in its entirety ? Yes. 23. Then the others could also ? I don't think I said he did so in its entirety ; he attempted to, and as far as it was practicable he did so, but I don't think anyone could furnish a descriptive return of stock and other property so accurately as to be of sufficient use to warrant the trouble and expense connected with it, because, to be a check, there would have to be a record of other stock coming in, and of the natural increase or decrease, daily, otherwise I don't see how a descriptive return could be a check, and such a return seems to me to be impossible. 24. Don't you think the effect of the branding of this stock would be to assist the Inspector materially ? Instruc- tions were issued that the branding should not be enforced where there was any difficulty or opposition. We heard at the time that the natives were rather favourable to the branding, but, as a matter of fact, they were very averse to it in many parts of the country, and the result was that, in many cuses, an Inspector branded stock here and there, in portions of his district, and not in others, and, of course, unless all the stock are branded, the thing is no check at all. As regards sheep and goats, no attempt was ever made to brand them. 25. That could only be done by a yearly brand ? I don't think it is practicable to do it. 26. The brand, however, was more with regard to cattle and horses ? The Act does not say so ; it is to apply to all stock. 27. In connection with a descriptive return of them ? I don't see how you are going to give a descriptive return SELECT COMMITTEE ON NATIVE LOCATIONS ACTS. of sheep, and I don't think it is practicable to brand them, T ^ I * on - 1 ' . r . . ' /. w. > so the only check is strict supervision. M.L.A. 28. Of course the branding Act applied to sheep and ^ uo .^7~ ]8 83 goats, and they would have to be branded on the wool or hair, but the great idea was with regard to cattle and horses ? That was very partially carried out. 29. That was owing to orders from the Government not to carry it out? Partly, but I only know of one division where instructions were given that the branding Act should not be enforced, viz. : King William's Town. 30. But I think there was a general understanding that the branding Act should not be enforced ? I always under- stood from what was said in the House that the branding clause was enforced and carried out. 31. Mr. Fuller. ~\ Was there not verv great alarm about _J / O the branding Act, in consequence of which action with reference to it was withheld ? As I have said with regard to branding, I will say with regard to descriptive returns of stock, unless you do it regularly, effectually and daily, I don't think it is efficient certainly, as carried out, and likely to be, it cannot be a complete check. 32. Mr. Frost. ~\ I don't agree with you at all there. You say daily, or nearly so. Now the cattle and stock in a native location is not changed so often ; there is a great deal of underhand dealing amongst the natives, but the quantity of stock brought into and removed from the loca- tion could always be attended to by the Inspector ? I think it would be found that stock comes into and goes out of the locations very frequently, and it is not only that exchanges take place between the natives, but men come from considerable distances, where they have been working, and, as wages, have received stock, which is continually brought in, and the Acts require that the Inspectors' returns should include such stock. 33. You say that the Inspector has not time to do it ? When the Inspectors in the King William's Town division were called upon to furnish returns which they ought to have supplied under the Acts, I understood that they had not sufficient time to perform all the duties required by the Act. 34. Was that owing to the location being too large ? I don't think so. MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE r ^ H t on " 35. You think that the Inspectors could have done it ? /. n. .SrtKfr, __ xl 1 T -I i -i -I -11 M.L.A. JNo; 1 nave said 1 don't think it is practicable to carry Aug~iT"i883 ou ^ a ^ *ke P rov i s i ns of the Acts. 3G. Not all the provisions, but do you think they could have taken a descriptive return of stock ? They may have been able to do that, but not to carry out the other provi- sions of the Acts as well. 37. But that is the principal duty ? I may say I have looked at the forms furnished from the Native Affairs Office showing how stock is to be described, and I must say, with that return before me, specifying stock to be described in conformity with that return, if the stock were to be shown me I should not be able to identify it from the description given me. 38. That is the fault of the return, is it not ? I don't think it is ; it is very difficult to describe a red ox so accurately that if you had never seen him you would know him by the description from another red ox. 39. Mr. Fuller, .] It is useless with branding ? Then you don't require a descriptive return. 40. Mr. Frost. ~] Then supposing a man owns half-a- dozen head of cattle, and some of his people come in with three or four more, of which you take a descriptive return, if you afterwards find that that man thus has nine head, and you afterwards discover he has ten, you ask him to account for the one extra ? Because he has one more, not because of the descriptive return. 41. You would refer to the return and say, that is the animal ? Suppose he sells one of his own and steals one very like in colour, of what use is your descriptive return ? 42. That ox would not be branded ? But where is your descriptive return ? You don't require both ; I cannot see the advantage of having both the descriptive return and the branding as well, because there can be no mistake as to the brand, but there may be as to the descriptive return. 43. The one may help the other ? If you have a brand 1 don't see what more you want, and, as regards sheep and goats, you can't describe or brand them. 44. Mr. Rhodes. ~\ You are in favour of the enforcement of the branding clauses ? No. SELECT COMMITTEE ON NATIVE LOCATIONS ACTS. 45. Don't you think it would be a very good means of ' ' The checkin matters ? If it could be done in all cases it ' M.'L.A 46. You are aware that in Australia there is a very strict branding Act, and every farmer has a brand which he registers ? Yes. 47. Should not we be rather going .back if we did away with the branding clauses? I don't think so, because branding has not been carried out successfully. 48. Could it not be carried out ? It is possible. 49. Could you not have a special brand for the natives of each district ? That is what was proposed. 50. Why has it not been carried out ? For different reasons. One is, I find, that in the King William's Town Division instructions were issued from the Native Affairs Office that branding should be discontinued because there was a great deal of feeling, and it was then feared that the natives would resist ; in some cases, in other parts of the Colony, it was not carried out at all, but if you are going to brand you should brand the stock of all natives. 51. Do you think that would be a fair provision ? I don't think it is possible to do it. 52. Why not ? It would entail an immense amount of labour, and cost a considerable sum of money, and I don't think that you would be able to get at all the stock of natives living within and without locations on Crown Lands and private property, and I don't know whether they would generally submit to it, and if they did, I think there would be evasion in very many cases. 53. The tendency of your draft Bill was to place natives under supervision irrespective of locations ? Yes ; except where a native lives on his own property, but the native tenant would be placed under supervision. 54. In that case would it not be perfectly easy to have a brand for these districts ? It is one thing to supervise, and it is quite another to carry out branding where there is so much attention to detail required. Two or three policemen, or an inspector and his sergeant, may know fairly well, if they are efficient and active men, what is going on in their location, but it is quite another thing to require that they should brand all the stock in the place. MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE The Hon. ;")."). Still, the tendency of your ideas is in favour of /. JT. S*uer. : n i *! o -rr M.L.A. supervision, irrespective 01 location : Yes. 56. It struck me it would be a far better plan, much . , . TOT' easier and simpler, to brand cattle instead ot having this descriptive return ? Certainly branding is more feasible, and it would be a far more effective check than a descrip- tive return of stock. . 57. As regards the difficulty of carrying it out, it is done in Australia ? There, I believe, they brand all stock, and here only the stock of a section of the community is pro- posed to be branded. 58. If the native steals will not the brand on an animal secure detection ? It may be, but if the native in such cases fears detection, he will not retain the stock so stolen, but he will slaughter it, and in that case your branding won't be of any assistance. Moreover, I don't see how you are going to brand sheep or goats, and I think the farmers complain not so much that they lose large stock as sheep and goats. 59. Mr. Hockly.~\ You say you drafted an amended Bill? Yes. 60. And do you think this amended Bill would attain the object we had in view when these two Acts were passed ? I am not prepared to say what the intention of the Legislature was when they passed those Acts. All I can say is that the Bill as proposed to be amended would not provide for the carrying out of all the provisions of the present Locations Acts. 61. Is there not one provision in these Acts with refer- ence to the number of huts and the position in which they are to be placed that is very obscure ? Yes. So I have heard, but I don't think it is the fault of the law ; I think the law is very clear. We have had references as to what the Acts mean on this head, but the meaning seems to me to be very clear. It is irrespective of the question whether the huts are situated on one or two farms. 62. Have any complaints been made to you that these Acts are often evaded by farmers having a certain number of huts under five on one part of the farm, and the other huts removed a mile further off ? Yes. 63. Don't you think it would be useful in amending the SELECT COMMITTEE ON NATIVE LOCATIONS ACTS. Acts to make provision against that ? I have already said f T ^ 7 e that one of the proposals was that that limitation should ' M.'L.A. be altered, so that it should be applicable to all huts. AU-- u~i883 64. And in making that recommendation, don't you think it would be better to limit the number of persons instead of the number of huts, because you are aware, that in some instances, they have made larger huts to accommodate more people ? Yes. 65. Have you thought what number you would propose in the amended Act ? I cannot say ; I think there is a provision in it as to the number of persons, but I cannot state confidently. 66. I understood you to say that in the amended Act the owner should be compelled to pay the contribution towards the Inspector's salary ? That the tax should be levied upon the owner. 67. Supposing that were done do you believe that the owner would pay it ? In all cases where they leased lands to the natives would they not include the contribution in the rent ? Probably they would. 68. Do you not know that that is the case now when an owner is responsible ? Only for a portion ; he is respon- sible for the same proportion towards the salary of the Inspector as the tenants are, but there are many advan- tages in going direct to the owner for this payment. 69. With reference to the branding, I understood you to say it has not been carried out in any district ? I don't think I said that ; I said I didn't think it had been carried out wholly and efficiently in any district, and I believe that is the case. 70. You are aware that in the district of Bedford there was, at first, some difficulty in getting the people to assent cheerfully to it ? Yes. 71. But all that difficulty has now been removed, I think, and all the location cattle are branded ? I am not prepared to say they have all been branded, but it was reported that the people were less averse to it, and the branding clause was being carried out. 72. Does it state in the last report that there are any there not yet branded ? I don't know, but in a number A. 26 '83. NATIVE LOCATIONS ACTS. p 10 MINTTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE The lion. O f \\ ier district s there is very little branding or often none W . Sower, ,. * M.L.A. at all. ^~ 73. But don't you think that, now they are beginning to understand it better, the people are less averse to the branding ? I cannot say that, because branding has not been carried into effect in very many districts. 74. What are, generally, the instructions now? Not to insist upon it. 75. Not even to exercise a certain amount of discretion in introducing it so as gradually to bring it in entirely ? Those were the instructions issued. 76. Generally ? I think only in some divisions where it was stated there had been strong opposition to the brand- ing. 77. You are aware that almost all farmers brand their cattle ? I thought it was otherwise. In the districts that I am best acquainted with there is hardly a farmer who brands his cattle. I do not think I know of a single farmer in the division of Aliwal North who does, and I think you will find it is pretty much the same in the neighbouring districts. You may find a man here and there who brands, but it is the general rule not to. 78. Would you say that applied to the divisions of King William's Town, East London, Beaufort, and Bed- ford ? I am not prepared to say, but it does apply to Aliwal, Albert, Wodehouse, and I think to Cradock, Graair-Keinet, Barkly, and those districts, though they mark their cattle in the ear. 79. Don't you think if natives could be brought gener- ally to brand their cattle it would be easier for an Inspector to trace any changes ? If the natives could be brought to brand their own cattle it would be a consider- able assistance. 80. Then as the feeling in the native mind against that disappears it would be better to carry out that provision ? I think so, but I don't think it is going to be the check that is generally supposed. I have already stated that farmers complain that more small stock is lost, and pre- sumed to be stolen by natives, than large stock. 81. Has any complaint been made to your office against the custom which generally prevails of Inspectors sending SELECT COMMITTEE OX NATIVE LOCATIOXS ACTS. 11 notice to the locations that they will be there on a certain r T} 7 1 , e , H ? n - / III '*v/ '.if day to have the stock examined ? I don't know that any ' M.'L.A. formal complaints have been preferred, but I know that lutr ~ Las been a subject of complaint. 82. Don't you think a considerable improvement might be effected in that direction ? I don't think the Inspector ought to give notice. 83. But unless they do, do you think it is possible for an Inspector to undertake all the work, considering what detentions would occur when he came to a location ? -Yes, if the duties are more general. 84. "Would not that be overcome by having police or headmen appointed who would exercise a general super- vision and inform the Inspector if there was any stock not brought to him ? That comes back to what I say : that you require more supervision. If the Inspector gives them notice that he is coming round it is very easy for them to show only such stock as they are entitled to have then, and it is impossible for an Inspector, who has other duties to attend to, to ride round the location and look in every kloof and mountain to see whether stock is not hidden. 85. Then you think it would be desirable to have some headmen or policemen, whose duty it would be to inspect these locations? That is what I say a general super- vision. 86. Hitherto the salaries of the Inspectors have been almost uniform, have they not ? Yes, a number of them receive 2-50 per annum, and in some cases less, but the majority of them receive 250 and 200. 87. That is irrespective of the amount of work they have to do ? To a great extent. 88. Don't you think an improvement might be made in that provision ? Yes, and I may say that in later appoint- ments salaries have been fixed having regard to the length of service and the duties to be performed. 89. One of the very last appointments, I believe, was in Peddie, where the Inspector received 250 ? Yes. 90. And the number of huts and people there is very small compared with other districts ? It is less. 91. Then that has not been carried out in every instance ? No, although I may say changes are contemplated in the D2 12 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE Tii,< Hon. ivddie division, regarding the way and management of ,/ /.' . biuirr, i -, , -i ! ,. J M.L.A. boundaries and locations. 92. Don't you think that the fairest arrangement would . H.lr>o3. . i,t t i T i be to regulate the salary according to the number of huts and inhabitants ? To a great extent, but of course at times huts are scattered, the country is more difficult, and the cost of living is different. 93. Mr. Irvine.'] With regard to the Branding Act, sup- posing that it could be carried out, would you recommend one brand for a whole district, or would you have different brands for different sections of that district ? Different brands. 94. Then considering that cattle represent a sort of currency with Natives, being used in payment of dowry, presents, c., and there is a constant interchange from one location to another, would not these brands become rather confusing than otherwise ? They might. 95. Would you not be branding the same ox half-a- dozen times ? It might be so, and then it would be necessary to rebrand cattle, and the reason why I say there should be different brands is, that if it is to be a check it should be a check not only for the farmer who complains that the Native steals from him, but also against the Natives who steal from one another. 96. But if they don't rebrand, not only would the Inspector have to keep a descriptive record, but a number of books for recording the number of cattle in a kraal bearing the same brand ? Yes. 97. Would not a much more simple plan than the exist- ing system answer the purpose very much better ? I propose that. 98. Say a numerical record of stock with a responsible headman, that if there were any changes in the number of cattle in the kraal, he would know where they came from ? I stated that what I thought was required was a register of stock and population, and of huts, and that there should be stricter supervision, that is, that there should be people appointed to superintend the doings of the native location, who should know daily as far as possible what is happening there, whether stock is brought in or taken out, and whether people come in or go out. SELECT COMMITTEE OX NATIVE LOCATIONS ACTS. 13 99. Of course you have had some knowledge on the 7 T c * J. II . Saner, frontier of what branding means. If you had stock M.L.A. generally branded throughout the country then you cease Ai;fr ~^~ 1883 to have a check by this means upon the thieving, because you would have to go round and examine every animal in a kraal to see whether he had a different brand on ? It would seem so to me. 100. That is an Inspector would come to each kraal and he would have to turn out every one of these animals, and look so sharply as to distinguish any difference between any brands that there might be. Supposing that he had in a kraal twenty head of cattle, all with different marks in consequence of exchanges, he would have to divide them into, say, six lots and see that he had the right number to correspond with each particular brand ? Yes, and the owner would have to show that the stock had a particular brand when it was brought into the location. 101. Have you given your attention in drafting this new bill to the question of native tenants, bow you are going to control this system ? The only check I can see is that the tax should be imposed upon the owner of the land. 102. The system is growing very rapidly, you are aware? Yes ; I don't see, except by imposing a tax on the owners of the land, how it is to be checked, and I may say this : that I believe the farmers, in many cases, encourage the occupation of their lands by natives. 103. But would that be a tax upon the tenant ? That is a matter of political economy ; I would collect it from the owner. 104. Is it for the work of supervision? Partly. Sup- posing a man had fifty squatters on his farm, and a tax of ten shillings or a pound were imposed on each male adult, it would, in my opinion, go some way towards limiting the number of squatters, but it is exceedingly difficult to pre- vent squatting when the owners of land favour it. 105. Supposing that the people who come in in this way were under better influence than if they were living in their native location beyond the Kei, is it any disadvantage to have these squatters if they are under proper control ? Not if they are under proper control. 106. In fact in this country, where it seems impossible 14 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORK THE The iron to get a stream of immigration, ought we not to direct our M.L.A. ' attention to trying to develop the native element and make Au<-TTi883 ^ Tnoro useful? As I have said, I see no objection, if you have proper control and supervision, to farmers being allowed to keep native tenants. I may state that under the Vagrant Act there is a clause, as strict I suppose as it is possible to make it, preventing people moving stock about without they have some authority with them for so doing. It is more strict than anything in the Cattle Kemoval Act. 107. If properly worked we might have the natives under much better control and better influence within the colony, on farms, than massed together in native locations beyond the Kei? Certainly, because although owing to the want of machinery the supervision is very inefficient, we can keep far more control over them in the colony than we can across the Kei, and there are more inducments for a native to work, and better opportunities for him to obtain employment. 108. Therefore our efforts should be directed rather to control than to prevent this influx of natives on farms ? I am not favourable to forcing or compelling natives from the colony to go across the Kei it is the best labour we can get in the colony, and the cheapest too. 109. Mr. Fuller. .] Do the farmers get a certain amount of labour out of these squatters ? Is that a condition of tenancy ? I believe it is one of the conditions. In many instances, I am informed, they pay for the land and give their labour in addition. 110. Do the natives ever brand their own cattle ? I believe not. 111. It has always been by the officials? Yes. There may be cases here and there where natives have branded their own stock. 112. I suppose they don't like it well enough to induce them to do it, either by Act or by persuasion ? No. One reason they give is that it depreciates the value of the skin when cattle are branded. 113. You speak of the impracticability of efficient branding. I suppose it is really a question of the number of officers required to do it ? Yes, to a great extent. BELECt COMMITTEE ON NATIVE LOCATIONS ACTS. 15 114. But does the branding involve almost the inspection r TJf ^on. I i QQ> W* of every animal from time to time to be of any use ? I ' M.L.A. think so, and even branding is no check upon thieving Au 18S3; think the working of the Act has been beneficial ? 1 think the supervision and control of affairs of this kind are beneficial. 151. You think the control and supervision of the Natives are desirable ? Yes. 152. You are aware that one of the duties of the Inspec- tors is to keep a complete record of the inhabitants in their district as to number ? Yes, I know that is one of the principal duties ; and to keep a descriptive record of the stock. 153. Do you think these conditions have been complied with ? I do not ; and, further, I think that this Act as it stands now is impracticable without an expenditure greater than Parliament would sanction. You would require so many Inspectors to keep a correct record of the inhabitants and a descriptive record of the stock and the carrying out of the general provisions that, as I have said, it could not be done unless at a very considerable cost indeed. Neither do I think it is altogether necessary, for I think you could keep a sufficient check upon the people and upon their stock to give you the protection you need without the many harassing conditions you have at present, w r hich really afford no sufficient check, for they cannot be carried out. 154. Then do you consider that an Inspector of Native Locations supplies no other want than that of keeping a registration of the people and the stock. Do you not think he is useful in a variety of other w T ays to the people in settling disputes and enabling them to remove any diffi- culties there may be in the way of their fulfilling the rules under the Locations Act ? I think the Inspectors exer- cised judicial functions to which they had no right, in taking up the position of petty magistrates and hearing and deciding cases. I know that Mr. Innes, for instance, strongly objected to that. He did not approve of it, and neither do I. I think the Inspector could be of assistance in advising and directing the people in their difficulties, but I would not clothe him with judicial functions. loo, Do you not think Hint in these large sdtlrm'.'uisi of 1^0 MINITES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFOKK THE M ij /' x uatives, many of tliom being very distant from a seat of magistracy, the Inspector could not be made a useful Au -- "ivtTiiment officer ? Well, you must make him a sort of deputy magistrate. I think the more magistrates you can have distributed amongst the natives the better, but this country will not pay the cost of it. 156. You speak of the cost of the Inspectors ; is there a very great expense connected with them at present ? Take my own division, I know that the cost of the Inspec- tors there was over 4,000 for that one division alone, and then the Act was only applied to about half of the native population of the district. 157. But that 4,000 was not paid as the salary of the Inspectors, was it ? For the Inspectors, the Police, and the establishments generally, which were thought necessary to carry out the Act. 158. Which establishments have been done away with by the new Police Force, have they not ? An alteration has been made in that respect, and I believe the whole of the Inspectors in King William's Town district have been dis- continued. 159. And the new Police force has taken the place of the Police who were employed previously ? Yes ; there are no longer any Police except the Divisional Police. 160. Do you think that a Civil Commissioner can exer- cise that control and be in possession of that knowledge of the natives which you think necessary ? Xo, he cannot. I think the Civil Commissioner of King William's Town, as a matter of fact, devotes little or no time to native affairs ; his ordinary civil duties in connection with European cases take up nearly the whole of his time. But we have there an Assistant Magistrate, Mr. Dick, a very able and efficient officer, who devotes a great deal of his time and attention to native matters, and is doing a great deal in improving the condition of the district. 161. And has Mr. Dick exercised all the control you think necessary over Native Locations? No, I do not think so. I believe there is a certain portion of the district which he does not visit and over which he exercises no control or did not up till lately. 1G2. Are not the natives subject to great inconvenience SELECT COMMITTEE ON NATIVE LOCATIONS ACTS. 2l ill your division from having to travol great distances to obtain passes or to obtain access to the Magistrate in cases " - '. ' of petty and small importance ? Yes, that is a grievance. Au o'--M 883 - They have to go long distances unless they submit the cases to the decision of their headmen which they do in many instances. That is they adopt their old custom, which, I think, ought to be encouraged. If they are wil- ling to submit, in accordance with their own customs, cases to the decision of the headmen of the village for arbitra- tion, I think that system would be preferable to giving the same functions to Inspectors. 163. But in criminal cases; would they also be submit- ted to the headmen ? No, all criminal cases should go before the Court of the Magistrate. , 164. But you would encourage the headmen in settling petty cases ? Yes, such as land disputes ; and disputes between themselves, in accordance with the old usages of the Kaffirs in former times ; it of course being always understood that the people are not bound by the decision. 165. Would it not be better that these cases within the locations should be settled by some one under the control of the Civil Commissioner in the district ? I have already said so. If you can appoint deputy magistrates I would approve of it ; but I do not think the circumstances of the country or the disposition of the House of Assembly would justify the expenditure. 166. Do you think that the occasional visits of the Police to the various Native Locations would supply the want of a permanent officer living in the district to per- form the duties of Native Inspector ? I think you must make your Inspectors or Sub-Inspectors of Police carry out the provisions of a modified Location Act, such as the checking of stock and the number of people. I think that could be done very well by Inspectors or Sub-Inspectors of Police. 167. Do you think periodical visits would enable them to have that knowledge of the location, its working, and the character of the people which anyone resident amongst the people could obtain ? A man might be resident in a district 20 miles square. I think the Police would be able to get quite as much knowledge of the district as any ll- MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFJiiE THE ^f;- '" '" LiK'uiion Inspector, who settled down in one part of the " ' ' district and had to go round to supervise it just as the v ~- Police would have to do. 108. Do you not think that the native would always look with suspicion upon these periodical visits of the Police and regard the policeman more as an enemy than they would a man resident amongst them in the Location ? Xo, I think not. I do not see why they should. 169. So long as the Police do not act in an arbitrary manner and the people are given to understand that they are there simply for the purpose of checking stock and enquiring into any changes taking place in the Location ? In all these matters very much would depend upon the judgment and discretion of the man you sent to exercise control over these people. 170. "Would not the policeman consider himself more as a detector of crime than a director and assistant of the natives in their mode of life and settlement ? Xo, I do not think so. I think you will find that the Irish Consta- bulary Force are responsible for the good behaviour of the district and what is going on in the district. They find it to answer very well in Ireland, and I think something similar would answer very well here. I think the Inspec- tors and officers of those districts are supposed to know what is going on, to make notes and keep records ; and these are the functions I would expect from our Sub- Inspectors of the Police Force. 171. In inspection of Native Locations would you have all the natives in the location subject to inspection ? I would bring every native who is in any sense a squatter, in short every man who is not a bond fide servant, under the provisions of the Act. 172. Those living on private lands too ? Yes. I think the great evil which attends squatting is the facility it affords for natives to settle in out of the way kloofs upon private property where they are removed from all super- vision and control, and undoubtedly become a serious annoyance and danger to the neighbourhood. Many pro- prietors encourage this squatting, as it pays them to do so, for the native agrees to give high rents to be permitted to live a life of idleness and secure immunity from the pro- BEEECT COMMITTEE ox NATIVE LOCATIONS ACTS. 23 visions of the Location Act. But, however, the free and M *; \i _ easy life the natives live under the circumstances I have described, does not conduce to their advancement or the An ^-- general interests of the country. Idleness is fostered, heathenish customs developed, and I fear the charge of the stock of neighbours being stolen to make up the high rent is only too well founded. Therefore, I feel the Location Act should be so amended as to extend its provisions to all squatters, whether few or many ; and I would make the owner of the property responsible for the taxes and also for the value of any stolen stock traced to any native squatter on his property. These are rather stringent mea- sures, but I fear this native squatting is growing rapidly and is becoming a very serious question to be dealt with. We find in the East London district the coast lands are filling up rapidly in this way ; and that farms which will not provide a living for one white man and his family are being let out to 13 or 14 families of natives, several farms having been purchased for the express purpose of letting out the land to the natives. I look upon it as a great and serious danger if these natives are allowed to grow up a mass of barbarism and without sufficient control. On the other hand I think if proper control is exercised this system of native tenants may be a great source of security and prosperity to the country. You have, however, unprinci- pled land proprietors who exercise their ingenuity in every possible way to evade the law ; and the natives agree to give larger rents than really the farm is worth, because they secure immunity from the provisions of the Act with the connivance and concurrence of the proprietor, who sacrifices the interests of the country so that he may secure a larger rent for his property. 173. Mr. Frost. ~\ You say that the Police in the new Police Force are now doing the duties of the Inspectors ? No, I did not say that. I said they might do it and carry out the provisions of a modified and practicable Act, and give better security than you had under the old system of Inspectors with the unpracticable provisions of the existing Act. 174. Would you advise that this Police Force should register and deal with the Native Locations as under the 24 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE M Ji i \ ' P roson t ^ c t ' I think that the Inspectors of Police or the officer in charge of a certain district should keep a record Am:.-j:i.iss3. O f f] ie num ber of huts and the quantity of stock owned by the people Avithin his immediate circle. 175. And you think that the natives would be better supervised, and that they would take to that kind of super- vision better than they do to the supervision under the Native Location Inspectors ? Well, I think the provisions of that Act were very harassing without ensuring you any corresponding security. The natives would prefer a sim- pler Act under the police officer, than the present Act. 176. Do you not think it likely that these officers or privates of Police would interfere more with the natives than they are interfered with by the 'Native Location Inspector? I do not see that, for the Native Inspec- tor is a policeman in the sense that he goes his rounds, has the cattle turned out and occasionally counts them and makes enquiries as to where the people came from when he sees new huts erected. As I said before very much depends upon the character of the officers you employ. If you get a judicious and efficient police officer I do not see why he would not be able to work a modified Act as well as a Native Inspector. 177. I am alluding not to the police officers but to the policemen themselves. Do you not think they are anxious to show to the public that they are doing a certain amount of work and would have an anxiety to bring convictions against the people ? I suppose the men would take their cue from their officer and the spirit they found in the force generally. 178. But the Police being a body of men used for the tracing and suppression of crime, do you not think they would be anxious to show to the country at large what service they were doing, and that there was something to be shown in the work they were doing ? I hope that the existence of the new Police will lead to the prevention of crime, and that the records in the Magistrate's Courts shewing the good conduct of the several districts will be a better test of the efficiency of the Police than a large number of convictions. The absence of crime in a district would be greater credit to the Police Force and more satis- SELECT COMMITTEE ON NATIVE LOCATIONS ACTS. 25 factory to the country than the conviction of a great num- M Ji /** i jv t M.L.A. ber or offenders. 179. Yes, but on the other hand might the country not Aug. 23,1883. say you have got a Police Force for whom there is nothing to do ? Taking my own case as a farmer, I am more pleased with the Police Force when I find through their vigilance I am free from thefts than when I have them constantly on the place looking for thieves. 180. Do I understand you to object more to the appoint- ment of Inspectors than to the Act itself ? I think you would not find men at the present time to carry out the provisions of the Act. You would not get them for the money. 181. If you could get the men for the money to carry out the provisions of the Act, do you think it would be possible to keep them on ? I do not object to any amount of judicious supervision over the natives. 182. Mr. Rhodes.~\ Do you suggest a plan to do away entirely with the Native Inspector and to put the head of the Police in that position ? Yes. It was found that the Native Inspection System was not sufficient to secure the general good government of the country and an outcry was made, the result of which was that 50,000 was voted by Parliament for a special Police Force. I do not think that Parliament will sanction both. 183. Do you think that it was in view of the removal of the Inspectors that the Police Force was voted? As a matter of fact I do not think both grants were taken. 184. What do you think of the system that exists in my district, namely, Griqualand West. It is a system taken over by the Colony, for we are still, I believe, under the Griqualand West Act. We have a Native Inspector resi- dent in the Locations, with an office, without Police, who hears complaints of the natives, issues passes and uses his influence in keeping order through the districts. In cases of disturbance he reports to the Civil Commissioner who sends him Police ; and the same course is pursued with reference to stolen stock. The fault I see in your sugges- tion that the Police Inspectors should take the position of Native Inspectors is that the Police Inspectors would be travelling about all over the district, and there is no parti- A. 25 '83. NATIVE LOCATIONS ACTS. F 26 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE M L Cu ^ ar S P* ^ or the na ti ye to go to ; there is no fixed place ? I have to some extent answered that question in the Aug. 23. isss. previous portion of my evidence. I am quite willing you should have this Resident Inspector, or real superintend- ence, in addition to your Police Force ; but if you cannot have both, I would rather have the Police system without the Inspectors. 185. I believe that the Inspectors are done away with entirely, and the locations placed under the Police ? The Inspectors are removed and we have the Police Force throughout the district ; but how far they are carrying out the provisions of the Location Act I cannot say. 186. Mr. Hackly."] Your observations have been con- fined more particularly to King William's Town ? Yes. 187. And your observations will apply more directly to that district ? Yes. There is a large mass of natives there. 188. Have you had any opportunity of judging of the working of the system outside King William's Town division ? No. 189. Have you heard any complaints from the other divisions that the Act is not working satisfactorily ? No, but from my own knowlodge of the native character and the provisions of the Act I should be surprised to find that the provisions of this present Act could be carried out in any district of the Colony. 190. Your strong objection then is that the provisions of the Act cannot be carried out ? Yes, unless indeed you have a comparatively small population and a very active and energetic man. 191. Are you not confounding the provisions of the Act with the instructions which were issued from the Native Department Office which go further than the provisions of the Act ? I am not aware of any instructions having been issued from the Native Department Office which were not in accordance with the spirit of the Act. 192. Does the Act provide for a descriptive return of stock ? Yes, it provides that. That is exactly the word- ing of the Act, and any farmer would know it was im- practicable and impossible to do that unless you had a very limited area and an active and energetic man to do it, SELECT COMMITTEE ON NATIVE LOCATIONS ACTS. 27 193. Do you think it is essential to have a descriptive M - return of stock ? I think it would be better to keep one ; _ ' but it is impracticable and it is not essential. Au g .23,i883. 194. Would not regular inspections do good ? Cer- tainly. 195. Do you not think that if a judicious officer were appointed to a district a confidence would spring up be- tween the people in the location and that officer ? Cer- tainly. 196. And he would gain ground with those people ? Yes. 197. And they would become gradually reconciled to the system and prefer it to the loose way in which they had lived before there was any superintendence whatever, that is to say the better disposed of them ? The better dis- posed of them form but a small percentage. The great bulk would prefer to live without any superintendence. 198. But do you not think the better disposed will increase in proportion ? Yes, I think under proper super- vision, continuous and judicious control, the natives of this country could be very easily managed. They are naturally a law abiding people. 199. You say you would propose in all cases where crime was traced to any native squatter to make the owner of the land responsible ; to what extent ? What I mean is that if the stock is stolen and eaten on the location, if the man who stole it was not able to make good the loss, I would come down upon the owner of the land upon which he is located. 200. And you would propose to apply that to every case in which land is leased to a native ? Yes, because many men are taken on the land as squatters, when it is well known they have not the means of improving the land or cultivating it, or indeed of subsistence otherwise than by working, and when they do not work it follows they must steal. I think it is the duty of the owner of the land to find out whether the people who come to him to lease land are in a reasonable condition to improve that land and make a living out of it after paying the rent. 201. The present Act provides that where there are five huts within a mile they constitute a native location ; would 'JS MIMTKS OF KVIDK^CK TAKEN BEFORE THE M M LA"' y u S11 cs t an y alteration in that clause ? Yes, I would make the Act to apply to all huts occupied by squatters - 1888 - and tenants. 202. Take the case of a man living on a farm, and his sons being in the employ of the owner of the farm, but the man himself not being in his employ, would you consti- tute that farm a native location ? Every man not bond fide in the employ of the owner of the land I would bring under the provisions of the Act. I know that some farmers to assist natives in evading the Act make a declar- ation that these men are their servants, and they exact from those natives a certain amount of labour in return. I would bring every native squatter under the Location Act. I would not wait to extend the provisions of the Act, but declare the amended Act to apply to the whole Colony. 203. But would not the cost of that destroy all chance of carrying it through ? I do not think so. 204. What do you think would be the average cost for every division in the Colony ? I cannot say, but unless you do that you impose disabilities on the better class of landowners and the better class of natives ; and let off the very class of men who are bringing all the trouble upon the country. 205. Supposing that in one district in which squatting did not prevail, say the district of Cradock, and a farmer there had a couple of natives on his farm who were not his bond fide servants, would you make that a Native Location ? I have said already that I would make the Act apply to the whole Colony. The reason natives pay such high rents to keep these farms is simply to evade the system of inspec- tion and supervision. If you exempt any district in the Colony from the Act that will be just the district to which those natives who wish to evade supervision will fly. SELECT COMMITTEE ON NATIVE LOCATIONS ACTS. 29 Monday, 27th August, 1883. PRESENT ! Mr. W. AYLIFF (Chairman). Secretary for Native | Mr. Frost, Affairs, ,, Hockly. Mr. J. J. Irvine, M.L.A., further examined. 206. Secretary for Native Affairs. ~\ I understand you to Mr. Irvine, say, generally, that you thought that what was required M - L - A - was stricter supervision and more efficient control? Aug.27,i883. What I said was that you wanted an Act with simpler provisions, and that Act to be duly enforced ; that while the present Act, if earned out, was very irritating to the natives, it was a most difficult Act to conform to, and therefore was to a great extent avoided, and did not give the control sought for. 207. By that you mean that some of the provisions of the Act are not necessary, and others it is impracticable to carry out ? Yes. 208. And so far as you have been able to observe, do you think the provisions of the Act, as interpreted by the Native Affairs Department, as set forth in Mr. Bright's letter, to which reference has already been made, have ever been carried out ? No, I don't think so. Of the books of the Inspectors which I have been able to inspect only one was really kept up closely. 209. By that you mean he carried out the Act as far as it was practicable ? Yes. 210. Can you say whether this Inspector had a large district ? No, a small one ; it would have been utterly impossible for him to have done it with a large district. 211. And with an establishment of the strength gene- rally attached to the office of an inspector ? Yes. 212. Do you think that, so far as a check upon thieving goes, the system of police inaugurated lately in some of the districts is more or less efficient than the system of Inspectors of Native Locations ? I think the system of police has increased the number of police, and gives better security than was done under the provisions of the Act as MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE M M iT\" ^ was carr i e d ou tj because the police can patrol the district more efficiently than the few at the disposal of the In- . 27,1883. S p ec tors. 213. So far as you have been able to observe, the police supervision in the King William's Town division with its present strength has done good service ? So far as I have heard, it has ; and speaking from my own experience I think people are better satisfied with the existing state of things than they were with the Inspectors. They see more police travelling about the country. 214. You are aware that in the police districts there are stations at suitable spots and in different localities? Yes. 215. I believe these stations are placed to meet the re- quirements of the case ; that is, where there are a number of natives located, or where, in the opinion of the Commis- sioner of Police it may be necessary that supervision should be exercised, a station has been established ? Yes, and I know one of these stations, and that the police are con- stantly out patrolling the district with the Inspector, and it has a very good effect. 216. Now, in your opinion, could such duties as you think are necessary to be carried out under the Locations Acts either as they exist now or as, in your opinion, they ought to be amended, be performed by the police officer in charge with the assistance of the men under him ? I think that an amended Act such as I have described could be worked by the Police Inspectors. Of course, in dealing with large masses of natives, especially those in districts where you have also large native locations, it is very necessary to have police officers who understand something of the native character and language. 217. That would of course apply whether a man is called an Inspector of Police or an Inspector of Native Locations ? Yes. 218. The duties which you think could be performed by the police in carrying out the Location Act, as you sug- gested its amendment, could form part of their duties as policemen ? Yes. 219. And you see no necessary collision in the perform- ance of the duties ? No I don't. I would add, though, SELECT COMMITTEE ON NATIVE LOCATIONS ACTS. 31 that I think you ought to have on a native location a re- M ^. LA'"' sponsible native headman, whose duty it should be to watch strange cattle coming in, or cattle leaving the kraal, Aug - 2 '' 18 and to report it to the Inspector of Police when he made his round, or to go to the station to report it, if necessary. I think that is the only efficient system of checking cattle, because it is so in keeping with native character ; they would recognise at once the different animals in the kraal, or would notice the absence of an ox, and if you had a re- sponsible man as headman it would be impossible for any cattle to be brought in there without the headman knowing or being a party to it, and that would give you a very much better check than that which was intended to be carried out under the Location Act. 220. Under the system of inspection by Inspectors of Native Locations in the King William's Town division, do you know whether there were complaints made by farmers ? Yes, I heard complaints made to Mr. Scanlen, to you, and to the Commissioner of Crown Lands and Public Works, by deputations of farmers. 221. And you are aware that in the King William's Town division very nearly half the division was not under supervision at all ? Quite half. 222. Whereas under the present system the whole divi- sion is under the control and supervision of the Commis- sioner of Police ? I am not acquainted with the whole police distribution. I don't know whether there are any police at the Keiskamma Hoek. 223. But you know that the whole fiscal division of King William's Town is a portion of a police district ? Yes. 224. And therefore under -the supervision of the Com- missioner of Police ? Yes. 225. You are aware that the Inspectors of Native Loca- tions had sergeants of police and one or two policemen attached to their establishment ? Latterly they had ; the establishments seemed to be gradually growing. 226. So that, whatever irritation might be caused by the supervision of police would apply to the system of Inspec- tors as well as to the present system ? Yes. 227. But I take it in all these cases, whether you call 32 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFOKE THE MI. / :> . a man an Inspector of Native Locations or an Inspector of Police, or a sergeant, or a policeman, it depends upon the Any:. -27. iss3. character of the man, and the manner in which the duties are performed whether people would be satisfied or dis- satisfied ? Yes, everything depends first on the Com- missioner, who gives instructions to his subordinate officers. For instance, a man like Major Clark would, I am certain, have carried out the provisions of this Act, and kept better control of the district under the Police Act than would have been possible under the Inspector system, and I think the present Commissioner, Mr. Jenner, is also a man dis- posed to carry out the Act without unnecessary irritation. 228. As only half the King William's Town was under supervision and inspection of Inspectors of Native Locations, was it possible, in your opinion, to have suffi- ciently checked and controlled the natives to prevent thieving to the extent that it might have been done ? No ; if there was a disposition to steal in natives in that part of the country where there was no Location Act in force, you had no check beyond the check of the headman. 229. And in the inspected portion, considering the Inspectors and the strength of their establishments, do you think they were able, even if they attempted energetically to perform their duties, to have exercised all the control possible ? No, I don't think so ; in fact, in one of Mr. Sprigg's reports, it is admitted to be so, and he had a com- paratively small district. 230. You are aware of the cost to the country of the five Inspectors in the King William's Town division ? Yes, I extracted it from the estimates, and find it to exceed 4,000. 231. That was only for half the division? Yes; and the Act was not efficiently carried out even there. 232. Do you know whether, under the system of Inspec- tors of Native Locations, it was possible to obtain policemen at short notice to perform duties or trace thieves outside of the locations for which Inspectors were appointed ? It would have been impossible to obtain assistance to any extent. I myself have applied for police, and have been informed that the few men they had were away, and there was nobody to send to discover thefts on my farm. The SELECT COMMITTEE ON NATIVE LOCATIONS ACTS. 06 Inspector was an efficient man, and would, I am sure, have M done it if he could. ^ ' 233. Whereas, under the present system, the duties of Au - 23 ' 1883 the men extend over the whole of the police district ? Yes ; as far as I know, any cases of theft reported to the Commissioner of Police have been followed up promptly. 234. Mr. Hackly. ~] And successfully ? In my own case the thieving stopped, but they didn't succeed in catch- ing the thief. 235. Secretary for Native Affairs. ~\ You know the limits of the present police district of King William's Town ? Yes ; it embraces the divisions of Stutterheim, Komgha, King William's Town and East London. 230. Do you know the expenditure on that for police purposes ? 20,000. 237. You are aware that the present police force is a mounted force ? Yes. 238. Were the sergeants of police attached to the office of Inspector of Native Locations mounted ? -The police were mounted ; at all events some of them were in the division of Stutterheim. 239. As it cost over 4,000 to place half the Magisterial Division of King William's Town under the inspection of Inspectors of Native Locations, it would have required be- tween 8,000 and 9,000 to place the whole ? Yes. 240. It would have been very nearly equal to half the vote required for maintaining the existing police in the police district of King William's Town ? Yes. 241. In your opinion is the present police force for the police district of King William's Town too strong ? No ; speaking to the Commissioner of Police about this matter before I came down here, he said he would require more men to work the thing, to put another station near the Quanti and the Kei. 242. And therefore the condition of things which existed prior to the establishment of a police district was wholly insufficient ? It was practically no supervision at all. 243. Do you know the strength of the police force in the police district of King William's Town? The estimate shows 204 officers and men. 244. As I have already said, if the system of super- A. 26 '83. NATIVE LOCATIONS ACTS. a 34 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE M i L' A'"' v i s * on un der the Inspectors of Locations had been extended to the whole of King William's Town it would have cost Aug.-2.vss3. bctwecn 8,000 and 9,000, which is very nearly half of the amount now required for the purposes of giving the police district of King William's Town a police strength of over 200 men ? Yes, it would appear to be so. 245. I think you have already said that in your opinion the present strength is not sufficient in that district ? I was told so by the Commissioner. 246. Mr. HocJcly."] You stated that the working of that Act cost about 4,000 a year in King William's Town ? Yes. 247. That only extended over half the district ? About half ; or, at all events, about half the native population. 248. What portion of this went towards the salaries of the Inspectors? 1,250. 249. So there was actually 3,750 spent upon police? Sergeants and police. 250. In the instance you quote, in which the present system worked better, the Inspectors or men were doing the work, and there were the police in addition ?- -No ; there have been no Inspectors since the police force was established in our district. 251. Who has performed the duties formerly undertaken by the Inspector ? I have already stated that I don't know that the provisions of the Act are being enforced at all now. All that I know is that the general feeling amongst the farmers, as far as I am aware of it, is that the presence of police moving to and fro through the district lias had a better effect than the working of the Location Act, as it was worked before. 252. W ould you propose that the Police Officers should keep the register of stock ? I say he may keep a small register of numbers, with the assistance, perhaps, of an intelligent sergeant, so that, if necessary, he could check a kraal and see whether there was any change in the num- ber of cattle there ; but as I have already said, a good deal would depend upon the class of headmen. 253. Mr. Frost."] Then in reality you would use the headman as a Native Inspector, as far as the inspection of stock was concerned ? I would hold them responsible for nv change of cattle in their kraal. SELECT COMMITTEE OX NATIVE LOCATIONS ACTS. o-J 254. Would you pay them for that ? I would give M -JJLA"' them a small allowance. In Kaffraria there are a great ' number of men, now called headmen and councillors, &c., Au s-23,i883. whom you could utilize in that way without additional ^ 255. How would you work that through the headman ? The headman must report changes. 256. And the Police Inspector would simply supervise ? -Yes, and when he had reason to suspect a kraal he could go and check the number of cattle in the kraal by the record. 257. At the same time you use these headmen as their inspectors, because you depend entirely upon their return to the Commissioner of Police, and upon the cor- rectness of their reports everything would depend ? The Inspector, or his Sergeant, or anyone he deputed could, from time to time, check the cattle at any kraal. The reason I would employ the headman is, because the Kafir has such a knowledge of stock, and because I consider it impossible for any Inspector to keep a record of, and check regularly all the cattle in a district of any size. I would also wish to throw responsibility upon the headman. If you leave it all to the Inspector you do not get so good a check. 258. !S"ow in the districts where you have none of these headmen, how would you provide there ? Wherever you establish a native location on Crown lands, or a large one on private property, then their ought to be a native headman at each of those centres. 259. And you must pay him ? Where you have not one already available. 260. Virtually making him a Native Inspector ? He is the headman of the village. 261. Whose duties would be to inspect the stock ? That was the old system in Kaffraria in Mr. Brownlee's time. 262. Do you think that system would work very much better than the appointment of a responsible man under the ^Native Location Act ? I do, because if the native has no check of that sort he can evade you in some way, but if you have a responsible headman, who knows what is going on much better than any Inspector could. oil MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE M JJJ 203. Do you think you could get a headman you could depend upon ? As a rule, if you give a Kafir responsibility, An?.28,i88S, an( j pj. ico } 1 j m i n a position of trust, he does not abuse it. 264. I don't mean placing him in a position of trust, such as looking after stock in his care, which I understand is what you refer to as the sort of responsibility he would not abuse, but do you think this headman would report to the police that certain stock had come into his location when he had anything to do with the stock himself ? I think if you take the right man, with some influence over the people, he would be careful not to subject himself to the disgrace of being disrated. 265. He would plead ignorance ? That would not do with a Kafir ; he would not set up that plea. 266. Chairman."] My idea was that, the Native Inspec- tors being pass officers, if you do away with them what would you substitute in their place ? I would make every police officer a pass officer. 267. As you are aware, at present, under the Native Location Act, worked by these Inspectors, every hut or private property has to contribute a certain amount of money. What provision would you make for that if the native locations are to be under the police inspection ? I would make it a tax which should be collected whenever the hut-tax or house-duty was being collected, so that the native should pay all his taxes at one time. 268. You are aware that natives on private property pay house-duty, but no hut-tax ? Yes. 269. In case of the abandonment of the system of Native Inspectors, and the collection of a contribution from the natives towards the support of this Inspector, what would you substitute for this contribution ? I have said I would make the proprietor responsible to the Government for the amount of taxation. The natives would pay their duty in common with all natives, and in addition I would levy a fixed tax of, say, five shillings a hut on all huts on private property occupied by squatters towards the expense of inspection and supervision. SELECT COMMITTEE ON NATIVE LOCATIONS ACTS. 37 Friday, 31 st August, 1883. PRESENT : Mr. W. Aylif (Chairman). Mr. Irvine, Mr. Hockly. Frost, Hon. J. W. Saucr t Secretary for Native Affairs, further examined. 270. Chairman."] You have contemplated, Mr. Sauer, The Hon. some changes in the Native Locations Act ? I have con- J - '- L s cr> templated changes in the Native Locations Act, as far back as January 1882, and certain memoranda and minutes were Aug.23,i883. then drawn up. 271. Could you give the Committee the benefit of your views as to the changes necessary to the well-working of that Act ? It was then contemplated from a memorandum which I hold in my hand, to amend the existing Acts by the repeal of that section, which does not make the Loca- tions Act applicable to less than five huts within the area of a square mile. It was further contemplated that it should be worked rather as a police measure than under the existing system. It was further contemplated that no native who occupied his own land, to which he had a title, should be subject and liable to inspection ; and it was intended to alter the sections under which contribution is now levied, partly from the owner and partly from the occupier. At first it was contemplated that in all cases a native should be liable, where under inspection, to 10s. in respect of each hut, and that the owner of the land should be liable to the same amount as annual payments. I sub- sequently modified my opinion, and I thought that the tax should be directly levied in all cases where it was private property, on the owners, and not the occupiers, and that owners should be liable to a tax of 10s. in respect of each hut. It was further contemplated, as a great deal of inconvenience arose from the natives having to make separate payments in respect of hut tax and house duty, that where they were liable to those taxes, that they should pay annually, instead of the two separate sums of 10s. each. oS MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE The Hon. onc i )a y men t O f 1. The 1 was to bo paid in lieu of ./. ll . Sauer, , r f M.L.A. house duty and hut tax, where the hut was situate on \u-~23~i8S3. Government land. Where, however, the hut was situate on private property, the man would only have been liable to house duty, and not to hut tax ; although it was con- templated that the owner of the land on which the hut was situated should be liable for a payment of 10s. in respect of each hut. I may say generally, looking through this memorandum, the object was to bring all the natives, as far as practicable, living on Crown lands or on private property, where not bona fide servants, under supervision and control. 272. You are rather mixing the two things there ; you say " on Crown Lands or on private property." -Yes ; I mean where there are what are called squatters, to bring them under control. Though it was intended to relax the special provisions in the existing Acts requiring branding and descriptive returns of stock, &c., it was intended that the police officer who had been in charge of the location should be called a sergeant of police, and that he should report weekly or fortnightly to the Inspector of Police, who, in his turn, should send in monthly or quarterly re- ports to the Government. Further, it was intended that certain powers should be given to enable the Government to provide for matters of detail by a regulation. That generally, I may say, svas what was contemplated. 273. You are aware, Mr. Sauer, that, under the pro- visions of the Act, all natives within native locations are liable for contribution towards the payment of an inspection ? Yes. 274. Do not you think that the Act requires amendment in this direction by relieving the native who is living on Government land, and is paying house duty and hut tax, from the charge for which he is at present liable under the Xative Location Act ? I would say that is a matter of consideration, because the native who pays 10s. hut tax on Government land pays that really as ground rent. 275. But are you or not prepared to say so ? I am not prepared to say so. 276. Are you not prepared to recommend the release of natives living on Government land from contribution to- SELECT COMMITTEE ON NATIVE LOCATIONS ACTS. 39 wards the inspection ? I am inclined to recommend that , the native who lives on Government land should not be ' M.'L.A. liable to any tax towards the cost of inspection over them. Auo .~^~ 1883 277. You think uniformity in the taxation of natives in the country generally is a desirable thing ? I do. 278. And this course would bring about uniformity? Well, one of the draft bills that I had before me provided that there should be uniformity. 279. As a fact, there is a doubt in some people's minds as to what is a servant in continuous employment, and many urge that a native living on land and working it on shares is a servant, and could be brought under the operations of the " Native Locations Act;" is not that your view? That is a question for a court of law to decide. 280. Yes, but would you be prepared to recommend that a native in that position should be exempted from native inspection? No, unless he is a bona fide servant. The Act says "A bona fide and continuous servant," otherwise he should be liable to supervision. 281. Mr. Frost.'] I am not quite clear about this : Do you propose that the tax should be discontinued on Govern- ment lands -that is the 10s. ? The contribution? Yes. 282. Do you consider it should be abolished also on private property ? No. I have already said I think the sum of at least l()s. should be charged in respect of each hut to the owner of the land. 283. And not the native ? No ; he would get it from the native, probably, but he should be liable to the Gov- ernment. 284. That would reduce the payment towards the In- spector's salary by one-half ? I do not know that it would. 285. It says here " Equal to one-half, paid in equal shares ? " I do not know that it wo.uld reduce it very much, because, as the Act stands, the payment is not neces- sarily 10s. for each hut ; it may not be more than one or two shillings. 286. You have already said that you propose altering the hut tax into a ground rent ? 1 have not said I pro- pose to do so. 287. Do you mean that the hut tax should be abolished and a ground rent substituted ? I think the words hut tax 40 MIMTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE The Hon. are misleading, but the tax is really a ground rent. That /. 1!'. Sam,; . e ' , ., . ., j n i i 3r.L.A. is, of course, where it is situated on Crown lands. \u"~23~iss3 *^' ^ r< H c kty-~\ There is one thing I should like to ' ask : Do you not think taxing huts often leads to abuse by natives crowding in them in larger numbers than ordinarily live in these huts, and by fixing the number of huts form- ing a location at less ; that is to say, that they put five huts where they would have ten ? I do. 289. You think it would be better to provide that the number of male adults should decide whether it should be a native location or not ? I think so. 290. I puc the question : If "huts" are to define the object of the Act, is it not very of ten misleading? I think so, by numbers of people crowding into one hut, or by their making larger huts than they ordinarily do. HC 517 1883