URL 5 6 4 1 5 6 G 7rc:i so :c/) ;0 I O ^ 3D (^ • • » / 'o r ^ ''1. V Z / /(• SUBSTANCE OP THE SPEECH OF THE Right Hon. LORD GRENVILLE, IN THE HOUSE OF LORDS, NOVEMBER 30, 1819, ON THE MARQUIS OF LANSDOWNE'S MOTION, THAT A SELECT COMMITTEE BE APPOINTED TO INQUIRE INTO THE STATE OF THE COUNTRY, AND MORE PARTICUL A RLY INCOTHE DISTRESSES AND DISCONTENTS PREVALENT IN THE MANUFAC- rURING DISTRICTS, AND THE EXECUTION OF THE LAWS WITH RESPrXT TO THE NUMEROUS MEETINGS WHICH HAVE TAKEN I'LACE. SECOyiD EDITION. LONDON : JOHN MURRAY, ALBEMA RLE-STREET. 1820. SUBSTANCE OF THE SPEECH, m THE HOUSE OF LORDS, November SOth, 1819, The Marquis of Lansdovvne moved, That a select Committee be appointed to inquire into the State of the Country, and more particularly into the Distresses and Discontents prevalent in the Manufacturing Districts, and the Execution of the Laws with respect to the numerous Public Meetings which have taken place. After some Debate, Lord Grenville spoke to the following effect : — My Lords, THE admission with which my Noble Friend fthe Marquis of Lan:,down^,J commenced his tem- perate and able speech, reHeves those who may follow him in this debate from all necessity of ex- B patiating on the painful circumstances of our pre- sent danger. lie sees and ackiio\\ ledges its exist- ence ; he is deeply sensible botli of its mag- nitude and its urgency ; and the glowing co- lours in which hehas rej)resented our present situ- ation, must have made the strongest impression on the minds of all your Lordships. For my- self, iinquestionaidy, I need not say what is my own conviction on this subject. Often has it been my painful duty to express, in this House, the continued and increasino; anxiety with ^vhich I have regarded the attacks nnceasiiigly directed against the whole frame and fabric of our Government. Often have I laboured, and laboured ineffectually, to impress these feel- ings on the minds of others. My apprehensions have been considered as visionary, originating much more in a fond and solicitous attachment to the interests which I conceived to be endanoered, than in any just view of the actual condition, or future prospects, of my country. And would to Heaven that it were so ! Joyful indeed would this hour have been tome, if 1 could now rise and confess my error ; if 1 could say to those from whom it has been my misfortune to differ on these questions, '' INI}' apprehensions were vain ; your " security Mas well grounded.'^ The reverse unhappily is true. Durinj-alarge portion of a long- public hfe, now closed, I have watched tlie destructive tendency of these revolutionary projects, — I have marked their unremitted activity, — their growing- confidence, — their extended influence, — their fast advanc- ing progress. But the evil has outrun my apprehensions. Never, at any former period, has il presented so tierce and menacing an aspect ; n ?ver yet has it so imperiously required, from the wisdom and firmness of my country, the most immediate, vigorous, and determined resistance. It is this persuasion which alone induces me ; it is this which irresistihiy compels me, contrary to all my expectations and all my wishes, once more to solicit your indulgence in the discharge of duties which I thought had been for ever closed. Let me, then, in the outset of these delibera- tions, entreat your Lordships continually to bear in mind that the mischief against which we are now called upon to defend our country, is not merely of the present day ; no, nor of the present year. Its true origin must be traced much farther back, — its real causes must be sought much deeper, — its remedies must be applied with a foresight and pohcy extending far beyond that pressure of tem- porary distress to which alone my Noble Friend is willing to ascribe it. Even in the course of this debate, your recollection has been called to those measures which, in the year 1795, now nearly five-and-twenty years ago, it had already become necessary to adopt for the defence of our laws and government. And it was then that iMr. Burke declared, and he has consigned the sentiment to posterity in his immortal writings, that the grounds of that necessity did not originate among us even with the French Revolution, although that terrible convulsion of the world did, undoubtedly, call them forth, increase them, and give fresh vigour to their operation. In what manner your security was then pro- vided for, and how it was maintained during the long and arduous contest which ensued, I will not now detain you by examining. We all remem- ber, that from the happy restoration of peace in- creased confidence was felt, increased assurance drawn by many, for the permanent and undis- tiirbed continuance of our domestic tranquillity. From lliat very date the mischief has on the contrary been constantly increasing'. Every successive period, down even to the moment in which I now address you, has brought us oidy fresh menace, augmented violence, more open and more ostentatious defiance of the public au- thority in all its branches. And I now call ^^ith earnestness on all who hear me, to reflect, how rarely the history of any country lias exhibited so rapid a progress of such a danger within so short a time ! Unquestionably, when such designs are enter- tained, and such projects are pursued, the distress of any part of our po{)ulation must alwajs give great opportunity and advantage to the pro- moters of sedition. It is the most power- ful engine by which they can operate ; the sti- mulant by which they inflame the passions of the ignorant, and drive their deluded victims on to acts of desperation, which, instead of alle- viating, can serve only to aggravate, and to prolong their difficulties. But occurrences like these are the instruments, not the causes of the mischief. Much of this evil exists where these distresses have had comparatively little operation. Many are most forward in the sedition whom the pressure has least affected ; while those on whom it has most severely borne, have, in many cases, conducted themselves with exemplary patience and resolution, untainted by this pernicious con- tagion, obedient to the lavAS, and inviolably at- tached to those institutions which have so long been the glory and happiness of Englishmen. If then it were possible, by any measures within the reach of human legislation, to alleviate their difficulties ; if, by any operation of law or government, we could hope to mitigate the pre- sent distresses of our manufacturing population, most readily would ! enter on the discussion of any such proposal, and most earnestly, I am sure, would it be pursued by Parliament. We all deplore, in common, these melancholy effects of causes which we cannot control ; we deeply sympathize in the afflictions of our fellow-sub- jects; and not our interest and policy alone, but every higher feeling which animates the heart of man, would lead us to embrace with joy, and to follow up with perseverance, the remotest ex- pectation of contributing to their relief. Even * those general principles of legislation to which we are most bdintl to adhere, because by them the permanent prosperity of the whole com- munity is Ijest promoted ; even these, 1 would con- sent, on such an occasion, to disregard for a time ; could 1 be persuaded, that in tiiat course an etfective and adequate remedy could be found against the present pressure. But my Noble Friend, in the very act of pro- posing such an inquiry, has but too well ena- bled us to judge how little real benefit we can derive from its result. He felt too justly what belongs to his high rank, and still higlier sta- tion, in this country ; he followed too closely the dictates of his own exalted and honourable mind, to countenance those vague and groundless insinuations, \\hich, not indeed within these walls, but in popular assemblies, and in seditious pub- lications, have been profusely poured out against the Firitish Legislature. He condescends not so to delude the multitude. He imputes not to Parliament the blame of events which are be- yond the control of man; nor does he charge upon his political opponents the neglect of a duty, which he well knows that no Govern- 8 meut, and no Legislature, could possibly per- form. He has stated, on the contrary, in the language, and with the science, of a Statesman, the true causes in which he considers the pres- sure to have originated ; causes far removed from affording the smallest grounds for any such imputation. And he has, with no less candour than ability, distinctly enumerated the only measures to which, in his judgment, this House could even now resort, with any hope of rendering oui- interposition honourai)le to our- selves, and beneficial to our Country. Through these details I will endeavour shortly to follow him. The interest of the subject will apologize for what may be tedious in the discussion. With respect, then, to Ihe origin of the present distress, we must, no doubt, in some degree, as- cribe it to temporary causes of depression, to which so complicated a system of commerce and manufacture must always be liable. The pro- ducts of our industry cannot be so exactly calcu- lated as never to exceed the demand for them ; nor do the markets themselves remain unaltered. Fashions vary, other productions enter into successful competition with ours, and 9 the occasional distresses of foreign nations lessen their powers of purchase and consumption. It is then that the necessity of transferring- capital and labour to more profitaijie emplojnient becomes urgent and difficult. Hazardous and groundless speculations are made ; and even the most skilful commercial enterprises are affected I)y disappoint- ments and embarrassments, to the production of which they have in no degree contributed. But in any more permanent view of our pre- sent situation, nearly all, I think, that my Noble Friend has stated, and certainly all that I should venture to press upon your attention, may be referred to the operation of one general and lead- ing principle of Political (Economy. In Peace, and under the happy influence of domestic tran- quillity, the capital of every civilized commu- nity, especially if permitted to find for itself its most profitable employment, tends naturally to increase in a more rapid proportion than the population : and the efiect of this its augment- ed and growing preponderance, is felt in the correspondent increase of all ^^hich constitutes national prosperity. But it operates most imme- diately, and visibly, to the benefit of the lower 10 classes of Society. It is by the application of capi- tal alone that any employment is evei- found for their industry ; by augmented capital additional emplo}ment is provided; and hence again arises a new and growing demand for labour, and a continually progressive improvement in the re- gard and the condition of the labourer. 'Ihe tendency of \\ ar is, in all respects, oppo- site to this ; especially of such a War as that which this Country, in common with every other European State, has recently and unavoidably been compelled to sustain. In war, large amounts of capital are continually and utterly destroy ed. Much is also diverted to channels of employ- ment, wholly, or comparatively, unproductive ; from whence, on the return of Peace, it cannot again be transferred into its natural course, ^^ith- out much difficulty, delay, and loss. It is, tlierefore, to a lung continuance of this great calamity, that we must ascribe our present distress, and that of so many other nations, who unhappily share it with us. The implacable hos- tility, the inordinate and insatiable ambition of the successive revolutionary governments of France, are the true causes which have extended 11 this, with so many other incalculable evils, to every quarter of the globe. Hence arose the call for exertions., unexampled in duration and extent ; the sacrifices required indispensably for national independence; and the necessity of those united efforts, by the unparalleled magnitude of ^^llich, alone, the contest could have been successfully, or safely terminated. Who can doubt how much all these causes, aided also in this, and in other coun- tries, by the unhappy error of an excessive and forced paper currency, must, in a long course of more than tv.entyyears, have contributed to arrest the natural increase of capital, and perhaps, in some of the last of those years, to effect an actual dimi- nution of it? But the population of our own country, instead of experiencing- any corre- spondent diminution, has, on the contrary, during this wiiole period, been continually, and greatly augmented. The result, probably, not only of our insular situation, and comparative exemption from the direct calamities of war, but also of the artificial and improvident system of our Poor Laws, established more than two centuries ago ! But whatever be the cause, the fact is certain. 1 he proportion which before existed, between our u capital and our population, has been essentially varied. And the conclusion follows irresistibly. No art, no wisdom, no power of man, can make our diminished capital equally productive as be- fore, of employment and subsistence for our aug- mented numbers. Where, then, shall we look for the remedy? There only, where it is placed by Providence, in the admirable disposition of moral, as well as of natural, causes. To the flow of the same tide which has already ceased to ebb ; to those altered cir- cumstances which now^ again operate in a favour- able direction; to that returning' and rapid accu- mulation of capital, which reason and experience teach us again to expect ; when the science, and enterprise, and industry, of a great and enlightened nation are protected in peace, and secured in do- mestic tranquillity. In addition, however, to this firm and sure hope of progressive improvement, there eire three mea- sures, or rather subjects of inquiry, which my Noble Friend suggests for the examination of a select Committee of this House, wilh a view to more immediate and present relief. As brought forward by him, they are entitled to our respectful ]3 attention ; they would animate all our exertions if the}' held out any just expectation of promoting the purpose for which he proposes them. But the first of them he does not himself re- commend to your adoption, unless you enter- tained a hope, which neither he feels, nor can you venture to encourage. If you believed that this pressure was the effect only of some sudden and transient calamity, and likely, therefore, to he very speedily removed^ you might, he thinks, be inclined to discuss the question of giving tempo- rary aid to the sufferers, by grants drawn fi'oni the national credit, or national finance. And, un- doubtedly, there have been cases of that descrip- tion, where our feelings, prevailing perhaps over our belter judgment, or at least overruling our general principles of legislation, have induced us so to act. But to those examples, our actual con- dition bears no resemblance, either in the nature or in the causes of the pressure, in its present ex- tent, or in its probable duration. Nor must we forget what has been, even in those less objection- able cases, the true operation of such interference. Arrangements of this description, however plau- sible and popular, make no real addition to the u wealth of the nation ; the} furnish, therefore, no new means of employment for its industry. Capital is not created by them, but transferred. It is for the most part diverted from that channel, in which it furnishes profitable employment to one portion of our people, and forced into another course, in ^^ hich the labour which it sets in motion, is avowedly less productive to its employer, and consequently less beneficial to the community. Touching", therefore, but lightly on this sugges- tion, on which he himself manifestly places no reliance, my Noble Friend passed to his two other more general subjects of investigation ; both of them, undoubtedly, well entitled to the fullest consideration of Parliament, but both, as it seems to me, extending very far beyond those bounds, which could be embraced by the labours of a Select Committee. The first of these includes the whole wide circle of our finance, lie would examine, whe- ther the means could not be found of levying a revenue equal to that by which we now provide for the public faith and public safety, but col- lecting this amount in some mode of less un- popular or less burthensome taxation. An 15 inriniry of almost infinite detail ! To be entered upon, not in the gross, but \\i(b a careful and scrutinizing' survey of each particular change which may be recommended : and even in this course, the only one in which it can be usefully pursued, leading' ue almost imjuediately to the most intricate and complicated combinations! In the present state of a revenue, composed of so many various branches, mutually bearing upon each other in almost innumerable relations, \^hat questions of g! eater ditiiculty, of wider compass, and more hazardous decision, can be proposed to any statesnum ? There niight, for example, taking" the very instance which my Noble Friend alleges ; there might be reason to believe, that by a diminution of duty, and a consequent in- crease of consumption, foreign wines might be made to yield their present amount of revenue at a lovAcr rate of taxation. I think it probably would be so. lUit, for practical purposes, the inquiry must not stop here. Before this mea- sure could safely be adopted, its operation must be deeply considered with reference to the other weighty considerations which it involves, both of commerce and of revenue. We must ascer- 16 tain, if indeed it be possible to ascertain before- hand, in what manner, and 1 6 wM't decree,"' the increased use of foreign wines which we should thus promote, would affect the production and sale of the many other articles of analog'Oiiii'c'On- sumption, which are so important to our trade and 'td'our agriculture, and from every one of which so large a revenue is derived. "' •'" It is far from my purpose to discourage the due examination of any such projects. The attiention both of Government and of Parliament would be well directed to them ; and never would I dissuade you from the task. Rut it is ne- cessary, on this occasion, and with reference to the motion which we are now considering, to re- mind you of its great extent and difficulty ; of the impossibihty of pursuing it usefully through the inquiries of a Select Committee; and, above all, of the utter hopelessness of looking to it for any present or sensible effect in relieving distress; or appeasing discontent. The same remarks apply, but still more forcibly, to a similar examination with which it is propos- ed that this Select Committee should be charged, as to the whole system of our commercial legisla- 17 tioii, susceptible, undoulitedly, of great improve- ment. On that subject my Noble Friend and I are, as I believe, fully agreed in principle. We both consider that policy as erroneous, which pur- ports to encourage domestic industry by the pro- hibition of foreign commodities. We botli believe that such devices, instead of promoting, have ob- structed our commercial prosperity, exactly in pro- portion as they limit the free, and therefore most profitable, employment of capital. We are both persuaded that, besides this general mischief, these regulations directly counteract their own purpose, by narrowing the only means which the foreign merchant has both of purchase and of return ; and by thus closing the markets of the world against those very manufactures, whose prosperity we are labouring to advance. I will add, that, in the particular case which he instanced, that of the discouragements now opposed to the import of timber from the Baltic, I am myself as much satisfied of their impolicy, as it is possible to be w khout minute and detailed inquiry. Other errors of a similar description might, I fear, very easily be pointed out. But every Session offers the op- portunity of bringing these, distinctly' and s^epa- c 18 rately, under the view of Parliament; and they would be thus much more safel), because much more deliberately, corrected, than by any general inquiries instituted in the form now proposed, and with reference to the urgency /:{fj, present distress. For in truth there can scarcely be any sub ject on which deliberation is more necessary, or where greater dangers would result from incon- siderate haste. Our prohibitory code in this respect closely resembles the system of our Poor Laws. Both are, as it is now generally acknow- leged, prejudicial to the public welfare, though the latter no doubt is by far the most injurious to our labouring population. But both are of very long standing in our statute book ; closely interwoven with all our interests, deeply in- grafted into our system, both of Commerce and pf^ Agriculture, and in our actual condition inse- parably connected even with the subsistence of a very great proportion of our People. They are. both therefore to be approached only with the utmost solicitude and caution ; to be touched only with the most delicate and tender hand. The same enlightened policy which now cou- 10 (Jemns their principle, the same jiister views of benevolence and patriotism which have taught us ' ttJ' • regret their establishment, teach lis also that in a state of our Society which they have mainly contributed to make what it now is, there can be no safety in their removal, otherwise than by a long succession of temperate and well-considered measures, uniformly, but slowly, directed to the ultimate object of a bet- ter legislation. It is obvious, therefore, that from this source nothing is to be drawn by which present distress can be alleviated. Gradual improvement may be made, and future benefit derived. But sud- den and extensive changes in our Commercial code would always be dangerous, and might in the present moment lead us to destruction. They would infallibly increase the existing' pres- sure, they might possibly aggravate it almost beyond endurance. '^ ■^And let rti^ farther remind Your Lordships with respect to both these proposed investiga^ tions, that their inconvenience and hazard arise not merely from the extent which they em- brace, or the results to which they might pos^ c2 20 siblv lead, but also from the very nature- of the subjects which they propose for discussion. I am far from agreeing in the opinion which has been stated to us, that these inquiries, even if unproductive of any practical good, would still pro- duce conciliatory and tranquillizing impressions. From such a disappointment of hopes so raised, 1 should fear a directly contrary effect. I know of no policy more injurious, none more dangerous to the public Peace, than that of exciting, in mo- ments of pressure, expectations which we cannot realize. r But much more is such an experiment to be deprecated, when the very questions which it involves are such as cannot even be proposed, without exciting to mutual opposition and con- test many and powerful conflicting interests. We are arrived, I trust, at the end of the painful duty of taxation. If its burthen can be alleviated without affecting its produce, happy will those be to whose lot it may fall to confer so great a benefit upon their country. But without the certainty of this result, let us not tamper with the revenue, nor trifle with the feelings of those who contribute tp it* Unkss the advantage of change be indisputa- ble, the Tery proposal of change is in itself iuju- As to our commerce, we have now the oppor- tunity of considering, under the happy auspices of pehc^V Jiow it may he liidsf certainly, and most beneficially, extended. The removal of prohibi- tions, and the reduction of prohibitory duties, on foreign produce and manufactures, are pointed out by my Noble Friend as the best measures for that purpose. They imcpiestionably are so, and they are the fittest to be gradually adopted. But let us not forget that they are also, however unjustly, the most repugnant to the prejudices of every People ; and the most likely to irritate and to inflame, instead of appeasing, the dis- contents of those classes of our own population whose present sufterings we lament, and whose feelings we are solicitous to sooth and to con- ciliate, by every practicable measure by which ,. ., .ill, ;.-„.. real kindness can best be manifested. ".'^'^^ ffijrvjpagg ^ijgjj to the second part of my Noble Friend's motion, that which more directly relates to the internal situation of our country,' aiid to the threatened interruption of its domestic tran-