= 92 ■ 3 =eH 5 RARY 1 ===;:; ■ IS CILIT 3 m. i)*-'. THE LIBRARY OF THE UNIVERSITY OF CALIFORNIA LOS ANGELES CHARITY a)Ml«SSiOH 3 ^X A Li B, A ^ "^^i^n^^~coii?ii]5K REPORT OK HER MAJESTY'S COMxMI SSIONEK S APPOINTED TO INQUIRE INTO THE ClIArvlTY COMMISSION LI BRARY REVENUES AND MANAGEMENT OF CERTAIN COLLEGES AND SCHOOLS, AND THE STUDIES PURSUED AND INSTRUCTION GIVEN THEREIN; AN APPENDIX AND EVIDENCE. Vol. III. E\ IDEJSCE, Pakt 1. HrrsJtntra to 6oti) ?t?ousr!J of |3ariiiimfnt Dy CTommanti of ^}tv iltJajfStp. LONDON: FEINTED BY GEORGE EDWARD EYRE AND WttLIAJM SPOTTISWOODE, PRINTERS TO THE QUEEN's MOST EXCELLENT MAJESTY. FOR HER MAJESTY'S STATIONERY OFFICE. 1864. 3001. CONTENTS OF THIS VOLUME. ].— MINUTES OF EVIDENCE RELATING TO ETON SCHOOL - - f^ 2.— MINUTES OF EVIDENCE RELATING TO WINCHESTER SCHOOL - 323 3.— MINUTES OF EVIDENCE RELATING TO WESTMINSTER SCHOOL - 393 *^* A List of tbe Witnesses is prefixed, and an Analysis of the Evidence appended, to the Minutes of Evidence relating to each School. MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. ETON. LIST OF WITNESSES. Date of Date of Name of Witness. £xaQiina- tion. rage. Name of Witness. Ejamiua- tlon. Page. — — 1862. 1862. Kev. C. O. Goodford, D.D., ProTost of July i 1-14 Rev. C. K. Paul, B.A., late Conduct and July 14 199-205 Eton College ; Rev. G. J. Dupuis, JI.A., Fellow and Senior Bursar ; and Assistant Master in College. Rev. W. A. Carter, M.A., Lower Master July 15 206-216 Thomas Jiatcheldor, Esq., Eegis(rar. Rev. S. T. Ilawtrey, JLA., Mathematical »» 217-230 The same further examined, ivith Rev. July 5 14-37 Assistant Master. John Wilder, M.A., Fellow. Rev. E. Hale, M.A., Assistant in the 'J 230-237 The same further examined Julv 7 38-65 Mathematical School. Kev. C. O. Goodford further examined - July 8 es-g.") H. Tarver. Esq., French Jlaster - July IG 237-242 Eev. E. Balston, SI. A., Head Waster of July 9 96-117 R. A. H. Mitchell. Efq. Nov. 20 242-251 Eton College. Viscount Boringdon - - . . ?» 251-260 Kev. Edward Coleridge, JI.A., Fellow, it 117-125 Wm. Evans, Esq. - - - - tt 260-264 and late Lower Master. J. T. Walford, Esq., M.A., Classical Nov. 21 264-271 Kev. Francis G. Durnford, M.A., Cla-s- July 10 126-133 Assistant Jlaster. sical Assistant Master. Mrs. Emily Kenyon, Superintendent of >» 271-272 William Johnson, Esq., M.A., Classical 133-160 the Sanatorium. Assistant. The Hon. C. G. Lyttelton - Nov. 22 272-279 Kev. C. C. James, M.A., Classical Assis- July 12 160-176 A. C. Ainpir, E.sq. . - - - Dec. 16 279-284 tant Master. Rev. Rd. Okes, ILI)., Provost of King's Dec. 19 284-292 Oscar Browning, Esq., B.A., Classical )» 176-182 College, Camhridge. 1863. Assistant Master. A .Junior King's Scholar of Eton College John Walter, Esq., JI.P. ... Philip Lyhhe I'mvys l.ybhe, Esq., M.P., and Richard Stocker, Esq., M.U.C.S.E. Feb. 14 292-296 Edmond Warre, Esq , M.A., Classical „ 182-187 Mar. 17 297-308 Assistant Master. Apr. 28 308-311 Et. Hon. Sir J. T. Coleridge July 14 187-199 Victoria Street, Friday, 4th July 1862. Eael of Clarendon. Earl of Devon. The Eev. C. TKESENT : Lord Lyttelton. Sir Stafford Northcote. The Rev. W. H. Thompson. II. IIalfori) Valgiian, Esq. The earl OF CLARENDON i\ the Ch.ur. 0. Goodford, D.D., Provost of Eton ; The Rev liATCIlELDOR, Esq., px.imined. \. (Lord Clarrmlnn to the Provost.) I beliovc, to, I think, tlio .5 Dr. Goodford. yon are Provost of Eton College ? — I am. 2. How lone; have you been Provost ? — Since tlie 14th Febrnary. 3. Previous to which time you were Head Master ? — I wa.s. 4. For how long ? — For nine years. 5. ( To Mr. Dupuis). I believe you are Bursar ? — I am. 6. How long h.ave you been so ? — For five years. 7. ( To Mr. Bafchcldor.) I believe you are Regis- trar ? — I am. 8. ( To the Provost.) Will yon have the goodness to tell us in what manner and by whom the property- is held in trust ? — By the Provost and College. (Mr. Dupuis.) The leases run in those words. (Mr. Butcheldor.) All the property is conveyed by charter of Henry VI. to the Provost and College. 9. (Lord. Lyttelton to Mr. Bafchcldor.) It is ex- pressed by the words " all in trust for ?' — You will find by the charter of incorporation tliat all the estates are conveyed to the Provost and College in fee, and they have every kind of leasing powers, and all the rest is as in other Colleges. 10. (3Ir. Vaughan.) Is there any property held in trust for the College that is not held by the College ? — Only the exhibition funds ; these are set out at the end of the answers. In preparing that part of the answers which fell to me, it was on this point that a difficulty presented itself, the question requiring a statement of the various kinds of property held by or in trust for the College. Here is a trans- lated copy of the charters of foundation ; you will find here that all the property is given to the Provost and College as a corporation in fee, and the onus on the College is set out by the statutes. There are no trusts set out and you will find that is the case in all the muniments of the College. If you will refer 1* ,*"■ <^. ^ ■^^- '"[ »..-.■-. G. J. DuFUis, i^I.A., and Thomas volume of the Rolls of Parliament you will find nearly all the deeds. 11. (Lord Li/tteltoji.) We have them in this book of Mr. Ileywood's ; there are 5 charters ? — Yes, you will find tlieni all run in that way. 12. (Lord Clarendon.) In your written answer to question 3, you .say, " The system adopted for the " management of the property is in accordance with " the directions given in statute XIII." Will you Iiave the goodness to explain to us rather more fully liow you consider the property is administered in accordance with those directions ? — The 2'roperty j)assed by the charter of foundation, and according to tlie statutes the College granted leases from that time down to the present ibr terms of years certain. Thev have received their rents and carried them to the College account in the same manner as every other College has done. 13. And that is in strict coufV^'inity with statute XIII. ? — I conceive it to be so ; the College have leases from very early times, and they all run that way. 14. These rents are paid to the College account with whom : with your bankers ?— Yes ; formerly they were collected by the bursars from each estate ; they used to go round and collect the rents on the estates, afterwards the banking establishments came into vogue, and the rents have been paid there. lo. (To 3Ir. Dtqmis.) And accounted for by the bursars at the annual audit ? — Yes. 16. Who audits the accounts? — The College among themselves. The whole College are present, and they check the sums and examine them, and ask any questions they like ; but there are no other auditors but the members and the Provost. 17. You do not call iu any professional aid ? — No, we do not. 18. (3Ir. Vaughan to Mr. Butcheldor.) What is the number of years for which your leases ruu ? — That is very uncertain. SBq^'>-^ 2 PUBLIC SCHOOLS COIIJIISSION : — MIXUTKS OK EVIDENCE. 19. What is the extreme ? — The extreme leases uow are 10 years for the tithes, excepting in one or two instiinces, 20 years for the land, 21 years for <-'• O.Goodford. ni;iny houses, bat the College take advantage of the ^ r^^"' • statute of Elizabeth, which allows them to let houses O. J. Dupuis. ETON. Itev. T. lialihddor, 4 Julv 1862. in corporate and marlict towns with less tli.nu 10 acres of land for 40 years, Eton beiug a marlict town by charter. 20. Do you consider that these leases for 40 years are strictly within tlio provisions of tlie statutes ? — The statutes of Eliz.abeth ? 21. I mean the statutes of the founder ? — I will take some of the leases granted in very early times, for instance in the reign of Edward VI. for 50 years. Some of their large estates have been demised for 51 year.s, and there are many leases of 51 years. In extracting these dates I thought it likely that question would arise. Soon after the foundation of the College, for instance, in 1446, the leases were granted for seven years, some of them for 10 years, and so it went on till they got down to 21 years leases. 22. When were the 21 year leases introduced ? — In 1455, that is 35th Henry VI. 23. How long was that after the foundation ? — That is about 15 years after the foundation. 24. Is there not a provision in the statute as to making 20 years for |)arts of the property the.ex- treme ? — Yes, now it is strictly adhered to. 25. Do you consider that those leases for 40 years and 21 years, particularly for 40 years, are in con- formity with tliat dii-ection of tlie statutes ?* — It is in conformity with the Act of Parliament; leases were granted in very early times, and it was always a diificult matter, as )'0u will iiud by consulting the books, to get at what i-eally was the time a lease could be granted for. It was supposed that about 40 years was the term. Those leases went on till they got to 40, 50, and 60 years' leases. Then came the statutes of 13 and 14 Elizabeth, which are called restraining statutes. They limited the time for which leases should be granted, because the injustice was so manifest as leases could be granted for 40 or 50 years, and when 10 or 15 years of a lease had expired, the parties would apply for a concurrent lease or a renewal, on payment of a sum of money. That was a transaction which would not appear on the face of the lease in any way, and that was well under- stood by the legislature in the reign of Queen Elizabeth. Sir Thomas Smith understood it v^ell. He was Provost of Eton. The restraining statute enacts, that a lease should not be granted for a longer term than 21 years, nor a concurrent lease till within three years of the expiration of the lease in being, so that other concuri'ent leases, which were as connnon as could be, were all restrained and done away with from that time, and the College have granted their leases in conformity with this very statute of Elizabeth down to this day. 26. But in case there was any variation between the permission given in the statute of Queen Elizabeth ' See Stat. XXXIV. and Mr. Batcheldor's letter, ire/ra, p. 6S ; and ■ Secretary's Notes Appendix. The A(^t 13 Eli?,., c. 10, contained tlic following proviso :— " Provided " nevertheless that this Act nor anythinR herein contained shall be ' taken or con-strncd to makr> pood aii.v lease nr Krant to hn made bvar.v " such Colleire or Collcftiate cluinli williiu litliir of the Universities of " Oxford and CambridKC or elsewheiv witliiii tlu' m\m of jinsrland for " more years than arc limited by the private statutes of the same " CoUcpe." By 14 Eliz. c. 11. s. 17, it was enacted that the restraints of the pre- ccdnig Act should not extend to leases of Iiouses witliin any borouith or market town : such hnu^es, with not nnjre tlian 10 acrei of land adjoin- ing. niiKht be leased " as by llie laws of this realm, and the several statutes of the sanl collcires, cathedral churches, and hospitals, they ., ''»";f"'l.y miKlit have l.nn Ijefore the mnkiii); of the said statute, or law- fully uiiKlit be if t lie saul statute were not made." By s. 19 it was pro- vided that no lease shonlil be made by virtue of that Act in reversion nor without rcsiTviiiK the accustomed rent at least, nor for more than 40 years ,at most. It is (|uite clear that neither tliese Acts, nor those of the 18th Eliz. gave toany icllcKKiie body any power to lease for a longer term than «ra.s allowi'd by lis iinvate statutes. Sir Tli<.m.as .Siuiili was doubtless a distinguished man, and was Pro- fessor or Civil Law at Cainbruli;, , and (■lianeellor of a diocese, but I do not know thtit he was otherwise eiuiueut as a lawyer. His biographer, Strype, admits that he was accused of extortion and covetonsness of buying and selling beneliees, and uf " chopping and changing lands," though lie defends „ni fn,„, these charges. He obtained the Pri- vostship of Kton whilst in the service of the Duke of Somerset, and was also Dean ot( arlisle heing at least in deacon's orders," and Steward of the Stannaries, but lost all these preferments on his patron's fall .— Hole by the iiccretary. and the statutes of the Founder, should you consider that the statute of Elizabeth, in which the legislature granted permission ijej'ond its own I'estraint as it were, could lit all affect the .statutes of the Founder ? — I think you will find that a public Act of Parliament, affecting real property, ncarl}- always overrides a private Act of Parliament, and you will find in practice that all the conveyancers of the day adopted that Act of Parlia- ment, and it is carried out to this day, and ecclesiastical corporations gi'ant leases of 40 years for tenements in corporate market towns, and they grant leases for 21 years now, instead of leases for three lives. In fact the title of the sttitute of 18th Elizabeth is for Eton, Windsor, Colleges in the University, and Winchester. I did not bring any books with me ; on another occasion I will bring them. 27. {A Commissioner.) Is that permission given in the same siatute which restrains ? — -No; there was an enabling statute of the 32nd Hem-y VIII., which acknowledges that fines were of very commoil oc- currence in that day, and all persons granted leases for long terms of years upon payment of a fine. After- wards by some fiction of law, a recovery or something of that sort, they got rid of the long lease. 28. {Mr. Thompson.) And ousted the lessee ? — Yes ; of course I cannot keep all these cases in my mind, but if you refer to the books you will find that was the case, and that was the reason why the statute of the 32nd Henry VIII. was passed. 29. {Mr. Vaughan.) Is your view of the matter this ; that supposing a particular founder leaves pro- perty, and specifies certain restraints upon leases;, with regard to his particular foundation, and then the le- gislature makes certain restraints with regard to leases in general, and gives certain permissions with regard to leases in general afterwards removing those re- straints, that that permission operates to release the holder of the property under the foundation from the rules imposed upon it by the founder ? — Most cer- tainl}'; I think all ecclesiastical leases are granted under the 14th and 15th Elizabeth which are enabling statutes, and override anything else. It is rather a I'emarkable thing that these extended leases commence very early, soon after that ; for here we have leases of 51 years as common as can be. We have a lease of Langley of the 20th August, 28 Henry VI., to Nichohis Clopton for 50 years. I rathei' expect William Waynflete, who is supposed to have had everything to do with the College statutes, was Provost at that time. 30. {Lord Lyttelton.) The words of this statute are, that their manors are not to be let in any way beyond 20 years ? — That is the statute. Now we go to the practice. From that time to the passing of the statute of Hem-y VIII., the practice of granting leases was very common indeed. 31. Of granting longer leases you mean; because leases are provided for here, but they are limited to 20 years ? — For a longer term of years. 32. {Mr. Vaughan.) How soon after the founder gave these statutes do you find that extension of the leases which you mention ? — This lease to Nicholas Clopton was in the 28th Henry VI., about ten years after the foundation. 33. I believe they were extremely disturbed times ? —Yes. 34. There was no security to property ? — No ; and it is a very difl!ieult matter to get a proper account of the property during that time ; but then we come to a later period, and before the passing of the statute of Elizabeth. 35. I suppose within a very short period of the, founding, it might very well happen that the original Founder's statutes were little respected ? — The neces- sities of the times, I expect, interfered a great deal with them. 36. So that any departure from the statutes might, at such a time, have been, in fact, an open viola- tion of the statutes, and not a pretended obedience to the statutes ? — Certainly. I may be permitted, perhaps, to explain the practice. If you go on to Sir Thomas Smith's Provostship, you will find that long leases, even in reversion, were granted. Now there T, PUBLIC SCHOOLS COMMISSION : — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. ■\v;i:« 110 excuse for ii de[)tnture iVoin the statutes by Sir Thomas Smith because he was, I believe, the first hiwyer of tlie day, and the minister of Queen Elizabeth. I thiuk he paved the way to coni rents, and to those very restiaiuing statutes. Now you will see what he did in his time. Here is a lease of New- ington Rectv ry, witli Flacks lands, dated 22nd Sep- tember, in tlie fourth year of Edward VI., l.iol, for 40 years from the Feast of (he Annunciation of the Virgin Mary, which will be in the year loo4, or whenever the lease granted to John Norton shall e.xpire. Yearly rent 17/. 16*. %fl. That seems to have been in preity good practice then; and you will tind the lease of tenements in Eton and Windsor for 51 years as common as can be. I shall feel it my duty, in conformity with the instructions the College have given me, to m; ke you any extracts fioni these leases. 37. Do I understand you to state that immediately or very soon after the foundation there was a depar- ture, in that particular, from the statutes of the foun- der ? — Yes. I think I had better give you the date ns near as I can. The first lease is a lease of Strat- field Mortimer, a considerable estate belonging to the College, grante 1 on the 7th April, 23d Henry VI., 144o, to William Bunney for 10 years. That is the first lease we have. Then the next lease is for 10 yeu'3. That is Stogursey, a large estate in Somerset- shire. Then comes Greeting, for seven years. That was a shorter term. Then Blakenhani, for seven years. That w:is the 24th Henry VI. Theii there is Leominster, the 26th Henry VI., in Provost West- burv's time. I believe thai is a 20 years lease; Langley to William Pynmore, for 12 years ; it is not confined to any particular term; and Stogursey for 15 years. 38. {Mr. Thompson.) What date is that ?— Twen'ty-third Sei)tember (33d Ileni-y VI.) 1453. 39. (Lord Lyttcllon. to Mr. Diipuis.) Which ye.ir of Henry VI. was the foundation ? — In the 21st. 40 ( To Mr. Batcheldor.) You gave the name of Clopton; that was a long lease? — Langley, 20th Aug., 28th Henry VI., to Nicholas Clopton for 50 years. 41. That was a manor, was it not ? — It was l.'ind. 42. That was the first lease beyond the terms of the statute, as I understand ? — Yes ; I think there is another where there was some little confusion in the grant. I think that was for 50 j-ears. It was close on the same time. I am very desirous of draw- ing the attention of the Commission to these leases of Sir Thomas Smith's time, because they are realh' very- curious. Here is a lease of a large estate the college have in Wales. Then we get to Henry VIII. It is 31st Henry VIII., for 30 years. Tenements in Windsor, dated 4th April, 4th Edward VI., for 51 years, rent 40*. A concnrreut lease for 30 years of the Ship, Windsor, rent four marks. The Spittle estate, which is a cou.siderable estate, leased Jst Sep tember, 4th Edward VI., 1551, for 20 years from Michaelmas 1565. That was leased in reversion. The restraining statute is to prevent the grant of leases in reversion, and very properly so. This was under Sir Thomas Smith's Provostship. Then there is Newington Rectory, with Flacks. (3Ir. Dupuis.) That is a perfectly flat district on the banks of the Thames. 43. {Mr. Thompson.) The word means ''flat" I believe? — " Flacks " is the spelling. (Mr. Batchcldor.) It is for 40 years from the Feast of the Annunciation of the Virgin Mary, which would be in the year 1554. That was three years after the date of the lease, or whenever the lease granted to John Norton shall expire. ±4. {Mr. Thompson to Mr. Bafcheldor.) Who was that granted to. From the nature of the case you would suppose a foregift was received ? — Yes ; I have had a great deal to do in hunting up these things. I am Chapter Clerk of Windsor, and we have a very great many muniments there, and I believe there never was a lease of any kind granted to anybody without a foregift, because these leases were intended to bear on the interest of the reversioner, and there is no doubt, if a person sold his estate for a sum of money, you would Rev. G. J. Dupuis. T. Satcheldor, Esq. 4 July 1862. find many old conveyances of the time of Edward I. ETON. and II., where the consideration is very di.stinct. It is in consideration of a competent sum of money to Jiev. them in hand paid. That is in the case of conveyances, ^ • *^- Goodford. but with regard to leases they do not put the con- sideration money in, because they do not wi.sh to give the i-eversioner or anybody else any information, and no law compels them to do it, and it is just a bargain that takes place. A man has the jtower of leasing, and he will get as much money for a grant as he possibly can, and he will make his lease for a long term of years. When a portion of that term has expired he will make a bargain again. There were abundant proceedings of that kind even here, where you have the statutes restraining, and where they were under the management, as you will dmit, of one of the cleverest men of the day, a man who took a part in all the affairs of the kingdom, and paved the waj' for these very statutes. Then we have, on the 7th Januarj^ 4th Edward VI., Cogs for 41 years, for 25 (juarters of wheat and one boar. That is by Sir Thomas Smith, and I really believe it is about the earliest instance you will find of acorn rent, which he carried out afterwards in devising the restraining statute of Elizabeth. 45. {Lord Clarendon.) That was the reut ? — Yes ; it was in order that the rent should keep pace with the time. 46. {A Commissioner.) But there were rents pay- able on these estates ? — Yes, I have quoted the rents. 47. (Mr. Vavghan.) With regard to the auditing of the accounts, are the accounts now audited in con- formity with tlie statute ? — 1 believe so. 48. {To Mr. Dupuis.) Can you state in a few words how the accounts are audited, and by whom ? — They are audited in the first or second week in December, in the presence of the whole College. 49. Is there any intimation given to the College to meet to audit the accounts ? — It is annual, on very nearly the same day, and the College agree among themselves. We may have an audit say next Tuesday or next Tuesday week, but it is always in the first or second week in December. 50. When the accounts have been audited is there any communication of the accounts in any way to the Fellows ? — No, they are all aware of the result ; they all see the accounts and balance, and all take part in it. Each liAs a sura given him, and they check each other. 51. They arc always present in person ? — Yes, if they are not incapacitated in any way. 52. I ask because the statutes provided that there should bo a record made of the accounts, and shewn to all the Fellows ? — They are all registered in the ledger books, from nearly the foundation down to the present time. 53. Is it the custom for the Provost to make any progresses over the estates to see their condition ? — Occasionally. The Provost makes a progress, 1 believe, next week. {Mr. Dupuis.) Perhaps you will allow me to say that I have been a Feilow for 22 years, and certainly the progress which I know is ordered in the statute has been in desuetude ; I think Provost Hodgson, 20 years ago, revived it, and he did go one or two years in company with the then bursar, and I believe Mr. Bulcheldor also, to several of the estates. I do not say that he saw them all. Since then I cannot say there has ever been a regular pro- gress, but I have been, as bursar, to almost all the estates. The late Provost, Dr. Hawtrey, went into Norfolk one year, but there has been no regular pro- gress, certainly. 54. {To Mr. Dupuis.) When it was revived by one of your late Provosts, was that done because you thought it a useful institution, which it was better to keep up ? — Certainly ; and it was felt to have been a dereliction to be lamented that it had nst been regularly kept up. 55. But since that time has it been kept up to the full extent to which he introduced it ? — I should A 2 PUBLIC SCHOOLS COMMISSION : — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. ETOX. liev. G. J. Vuixiis. T. natchelilor, Esq. 4 JiilvlSOi. u'tounts tli:it aro information on tliat linnliv say it had, because it lias devolved on myself only, and the Kejristnir. The late Pfovost, as I say, Jtev. went but once into Xnrfolk. I may say that 1 have C. O. Goutl/urJ. personally seen, .sometimes more than once, nearly all the estates of the College, but it has not been a regular progress. It has consisted of visiting the estates and becoming acciuainted with tlie tenants and buildings and condition of the property as far as one could. 5G. I believe the Provost is particularly charged by the statutes, is lie not, with the superintendence of the iiroperty ? — Yes. 57. (.'//•. Tlinwpsnn to .!//■. Balchclilor.) What is the earliest record you have of the amount of any fines or fbregift received by the College ? — The fines do not form i)art of thi' College audited and settled. 58. But you have given u subject ? — Vcs. 59. Are they not copied anywhere ? — The bur- sar keeps a book ; I doubt whether there is any account of fines. I think the bursar can give you a better account of that than I can. I know they have been kejit for the hist 50 years. 60. There are no archives in which there is any record of the sums received by way of foregift, which I have no doubt you are correct in saying was a very early practice ; you do not find any record of the amount ? — I do not know anything earlier than the present century. 61. {Mr. Ven/f/hiin to Mr. Dupuis.) Is it your opinion that the management of the property at pre- sent jirovides you with any means of ascertaining the condition of your more distant estates, such as would reasonably enable you to dispense with visiting the property ?— I think that visiting the property must be advantageous in order to become acquainted with the tenants and lessees, the character and condition of the land and buildings. 62. Yon think to eflect the proper productiveness of the property it is almost a necessary step? — I think it is a very necessary and useful step. 63. I think the statute which requires the Pro- vost and others to make a progress through the pro- perty, directs him to take some person with him who is competent to form a judgment on the different matters which would come before him ?• — We always take our Eegistrar, and we have many agents in different parts of the country who are amenable to us, and responsible to us. {Mr. Balchehlor.) The property has been in fact managed by them, till within the last 25 years, for very many years. 64. (To Mr. Dupuis.) But still you consider the personal superintendence of the Provost is extremely useful ? — I think so. {Mr. Butchcldnr.) The College get proper surveys and plans ; they know every acre of their estates. 65. {Lord Clarenrln/i to Mr. Batcheldor.) Do you consider that the estates are now managed in the best way, according to the system by which landed proper- ties are managed ? — I should think so. 66. You think that the system of letting and looking after the property is the best one ? — I should not like to give an opinion about the present mode of letting and l•ene^\al lines and those things. 67. ( To ISIr. Diipiiis.) But that is a very im- portant matter? — I may say I think it is a disad- vantageous arrangement. {Mr. Batcheldor.) I should not like to give an opinion on that, because it involves manj"^ questions. If any gentleman will make researches among the muniments of any religious house he will find, as these jiapcrs unfold, that after all the lessees have nearly all been the makers of church property. They have advanced their capital and industry and every thing else in improving the church lands, and I believe by very eminent men it has been considered that that was the great safety of the property of the church, that there was a cominunit}^ of interest between the church and the lay persons who were ready to advance their labour and money in cultivating the lands. It was only carrying out the system adopted in those early times, when the class of men rather above the common serf or bondsman acquired a little property. 68. Would yon consider that the church as holding property is diflerent from any other holder of property, that there are different relations between them and tlie lessees of their property than in other cases ? — Yes, to this extent : if a man is holding at less than rack-rent he has an interest in the property, and he will embark his capital. 69. {Lord LijtteltoH.) You mean that as a gene- ral rule you consider the system of fines is not advan- tageous ? — No. {Mr. Dupuis.) I think if the property of a College like Eton or any other was managed as any private gentleman's estate is, it would be a more advantageous way of doing it ; but still I see insuper- able difficulties to arriving at that, short of a long ])eriod of years. The greater part of them are now let on long renewable leases, but there are many on rack-rent. 70. What you say has no si^ecial reference to Eton ? — No ; I do not suppose any private gentlernan would like to have his estate in the same position. 71. {3Ir. Thompson.) You conceive the circum- stances of tliese times do not necessitate fines by way of precaution or protection to church property as in the times when they were originally taken ? — I think so. In these early times I do not know how Eton Col- lege could get its rent without great difiiculty, and it was necessary to have these long leases in those days. The estates of Eton College are situate in 22 counties. There is one as far north as Lincolnshire, and there is Devonshire on the other side. Even in Cornwall there is a small portion. It is scattered and extended in different ways. 72. {Sir Stafford Northcote to Mr. Dupuis.) And the same difficulties you now see in the way of getting rid of the system of long leases and fines to rack-rents must always have existed from the time that those fines and long leases had once come into operation ? — Certainly. 73. They are not peculiar to the present time ; but that must have been the case 100 or 200 years ago, the long leases having once become the rule ? — Certainly ; but I apprehend, even 100 years ago, that the idea of letting those leases run out hardly ever occurred to anybody. {Mr. Batcheldor.) The tenants for life were always a bar to the running out of a lease ; they had nothing but their fines. {Mr. Dupuis.) I may say, as you are upon this part, that for some years, we have gradually commenced running out leases. At the present moment I think there are 22 leases which we have declined to renew, which are gradually expiring, and which, when they do expire, will add considerably to the available revenues of the College. T should mention, perhaps, and many of the Commission probably are aware of it, that a large estate belonging to Eton College, at Primrose Hill, is gradually being built upon. That was almost all leased within my memory. We have foregone a large portion of fine, and it is now being built upon to very great advantage. I should think, since I have been a Fellow, a rental of mere ground rents of 1,500/. a year has accrued within the last 20 years. {3fr. Bafclieldor.) You will find these rents set out. 74. {To 3Ir. Dupuis.) Can you at all form a judgment of what that estate at Primrose Hill is likely to produce within, say, the next 10 or 20 years? — It has increased to I,400Z. or 1,500Z. a year, which, I think, is the sum which stands in the last year's audit books. That is accrued, within 25 years, and therefore, I suppose, you may argue th.at for the next 25 years, if London is to go on building, it would be doubled again ; and that it would be 3,000/. a year then. 75. You do not look to more than that in the way of falling in of leases ?— They are 80 and 90 year leases. PUBLIC SCHOOLS COMMISSION : — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE VG. Are there not other leases still to full in, in the Primrosi- Hill or other London property r — No ; Primrose Hill is all new within So years. 77. There are no leases outstandinjj; ? — Wild's estate is in tiiat neighbourhood, but it has not been built upon. That is 3oO acres of land, whieli is let on lease. 78. Has that long- to run ? — It was renewed about two or three years ago. {Mr. Biitvhrldur.) I think there is about 17 years in that lease. {Mr. Diipuis.) But before the end of that period there will be another fine taken and another seven years added to the lease if the present system of leasing is to go on. 79. {To Mr. Dupuis.) Can you judge what the value of that property will be at the end of 17 years at rack-rent ? — It was valued not many years ago for the purpose of setting the proper fine upon it. There is an estate of 350 acres of very fine land in Hampstead parish ; it would be worth 1,000/. or 1,100/. a year, I should think. 80. {Lord Devon.) What portion of the Primrose Hill property still remains unbuilt upon ? — A very considerable portion. 81. Is half of it occupied in building ? — No, it is not. I thiidv the original estate at Primrose Hill comprised about 1.50 acres. 82. Is it stated in the written answers ? — I do not think it is. 83. Is it the Chalcots estate mentioned at page 7, the acreage of which is said to be 83 acres ? — {Mr. Balcheldor.) That is the land built on. {Mr. Dupuis.) There is about as much more grass land. 84. {To Mr. Dupuis.) As available for building as that which is already occupied ? — I think so. (Mr. Btttchcldor.) All the Clialeots estate is. {Mr. Dupuis.) We have applications now before us, I believe, for more laud to be built upon, and probably it will all be built upon if there is no check. 85. {Sir S. ]S''ort/icofc.) That would very much increase the value of your Loudon property ? — Very much ; it is increasing every year. 86. Have you formed any kind of estimate as to ■what the total value of your London property at rack- rent might be ; say 20 j-ears hence, supi)osing you did not renew ? — That couid not apply to Chalcots, because these are building leases for 99 years ; j'ou must w-ait 80 years more. We have not much other property in Loudon. There is a house in Cheapside, three in Holborn, and a house in Bread Street. There is some property in Westminster, called Westminster tenements, within 200 yards of this very place, which is running out. That lease we have declined to renew ; it will expii-e in nine years' time. 87. {Lord Devon.) You will find Chalcots men- tioned again at the bottom of page 6 ? — It will not be renewed, and expires iu nine years hence. 88. {Sir S. Xortlieote.) Then be'ow that you find Chalcots again ? — Yes ; that is " land and houses " adjoining Primrose Hill and Haverstock Hill, " Hampstead." 89. Which expires in 1880 ?— Yes ; that is the portion of the property which has not been liuilt upon, and which has been renev.'ed. 90. Are you aware that there is a general im- pression that when all that property falls in hand the value of the College property will be increased by several thousands a year ? — Yes, without doubt it will. 91. {Lord Clarendon.) You do not think levj-- ing fines, though it may not be the very best mode of administering the property, is in any way contrary to the statutes? — No, I never have thought so. There is nothing mentioned about fines, but it seems to me to have been the custom to levy them from the very beginning. 92. {Mr. Vaughan.) The expression is ad fir- mam ; do you know the general interpretation of that term ? — No. 93. It must be solely ad Jirmam, does that imply an annual rent ? — {Mr. Dupuis.) It must be applied to the rent. 94. {Lord Clarendon.) Do you consider the manner in which the fines arc levied a question of the construction of the statutes ? — I do not know that I can say it is a question of the construction of the statutes. I can only say that from the very first we believe fines have been taken, and they have been increased as the value of the property has increased and new surveys have been made. It is a sort of anticipation of rent, it seems to me. 95. (Lord Devon.) Do 1 understand your view, Mr. Dupuis, to be that, provided an annual rent is paid, there is nothing iu the statutes to require that it shall be to the full value ? — The reserved rents depend upon the statute of Queen Elizabeth. There are to be paid certain sums of money, certain quarters of wheat, certain quarters of malt, and so on, and that is the shape in which the College have been enjoying them ever since the time of Queen Elizabeth. With respect to the reserved rents, they have all been regulated by statute. {Mr. Biitc]ieldor.) One-third is to be paid in kind. 95. {Mr. lliompson.) Is that in money, that reserved rent ? — Yes, it is reserved by the lease. 97. Is it not the corn rent that is reserved ? — They are money rents which were reserved, but they were calculated at the time under the statute. 98. {Sir S. JS'or tit vote.) I sup|)ose these foregifts always came into the hands of the bursars from the first ? — Certainly. 99. Were not the bursars bound to render an account to the College of the receipts which camo into their hands ? — No doubt they always did ; I have always done so myself. 100. Do they not require you to render an ac- count of the fines and foregifts ? — Ido not think that any record of the foregifts or fines has been kept in the same w.iy that the rental is. 101. But according to the statutes they ought to have been entered on the accounts, atid to ha\e been rendered ad coniiiinnris sovioriiiii ct scholarinm, under the 13th statute ? — No doubt (lie existing body have always been accredited \\ ith X\\". amount of the fines, whatever they may lia\e been, but I do not think that any actual account of them has ever been given in the College books. I have gone back a very long way, but I cannot find anything of them. 102. {Lord Clarendon.) Do you mean to say that they are not audited now ? — Not so as to come into the accounts. They are not lirought into the ordi- nary books. I think you will find tliat it was the custom of every religious house to have a rent re- served in the lease ; the payments of rent were audited, and they kept the fines. 103. Do you think that that would give a just idea of what the value of the property is, or how it is dealt with ? — Certainly not ; but I think that if you refer to the Report on Church Leases, at page 38, you will find the whole explanation as to the nature of fines and reserved rents, and you will find, I think, that in the accounts of most religious houses the rack rents and fines are never noticed. It is only the re- served rents, the rents reserved in the leases. The Committee who investigated the subject went into the whole question of fines and rack rents. 104. {Lord Li/ftelton.) With regard to the sta- tutes of Eton College, are not the words of the 39th Statute plain in regard to the audit, "fiualis computus " omnium receptorum et communarum et expen- " sarum hospitii dicti Eegalis CoUegii et aliarum '• intrinsecarum et forinsecarum quarumcunque " per bursaries seu alias factarum flnaliter et com- " plete audiatur et debite ingrossetur." How can it bo said that the words " receptorum et communa- " rum" do not include the fines whenever they exist. They are part of the receipts of the College ? — {Mr. Dupuis.) I must admit th.at, but as far as I know they never were audited. 105. {Mr. Vaughan.) Statute 40 contains the pro- A 3 KTON. Rev. C. O. Goodjord. liev. (r. J. Dupuis. T. Batchddor, i July 18G2. PUBLIC SCHOOLS COMMISSION : — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. ETON. Bei: C. O. Good/ord. Bei: G. J. Dupuis. T. Batcheldor, Esq. ■Ijulv 18G2. vision enjoining bursars to account for tlio rents and the annual value of tlie property of tlie College. If rents only e.\haust all they coiilil have to account for, and there is no i-cierence anywhere to fines at all, is it not a fair inference from that that there were no such things as fines at (he time ? — I should not say that we must necessarily infer from that that there were no fines at all. 106. {Lord Ltjttellon.) Does not the passage rallicr infer that if there were any fines they ought to be brought to account ? — That is another matter. 107. {Mr. VaiKjhan.) There being a strict audit exacted, and llic manner of it specified, would not the fact that there is no mention whatever in the statutes respecting fines raise any inference that no such fines existed? — But the answer to that is that fines do exist, aithougii they may not have been mentioned in the statutes. We have the fact before us that fines do exist on this very property. {Mr. Batcheldor.) I have not the least doubt about it ; yon are quite aware that this question is involved in a great deal of obsolete law, but it was a very common thing with reference to almost every religious house in the land in the time ofHenry VIII., and before hib reign, that there should be two values to landed ))ro|ierty in their possession, namely, the reserved rental value under the lease, and the fineable value, the fine that was received for granting the lease, which was divided by the corporation when the fine w.as paid, and for the same purposes which I have endeavoured to explain. No doubt it was a sale of a portion of the estates, and that sale was considered leg.al. I shall have no difficulty whatever in showing you that the lease to which we have been referring was cxecuteil by Sir Thomas Smith under that im- pression. It is quite a ease for a search for some good old black-letter lawj^er, and I have no doubt whatever that it led to the passing of the statute of Elizabeth, by which the power of granting such leases was restrained, and it is provided that j'ou are to have so much, a certain rent reserved according to the price of grain, which is named the 3'early rental of the College, and which is the sum which that and every corporation since has gone on. 108. {Lord Lyttelton.) What I wish to know is whether the College can see any dilference in these receipts, I mean between the tines and the rest of their income. Do they consider that these fines con- stitute a part of the property which they hold in trust for the College ? — {3[r. Di/puis.) The fines have been divided imniemoriably between the Provost and the Fellows. • 109. Do they consider that they art. not account- able for the appropriation ot that, property ? — li never has been accounted foi' in the audit. 110. (Mr. Vauffhan.) You contend, Mr. Bat- cheldor, do you not, that these fines always from the first formed part of the property of the College and Fellows ? — {3Ir. Batcheldor.) I thiuk so, and I do not confine it exactly to this College, but I say the same observation is applicable to every religious Isody. 111. And do you maintain that however great may be the distinction between that and other por- tions of the property, that they were not accountable for that portion just in the same way as they were for the rest of the property ? — {3Ir. Dupuis.) No, they are not accountable. That is to say that those accounts are not brought iuto the audit book. 112. Is that consistent with the words in the statutes that all the accounts shall be brought to audit ? — The fines have never been audited. 113. Would it not, in point of fact, have made the audit almost nugatory if these fines were not to be taken into consideration, and no account were to be given of them? — {Mr. Batcheldor.) I fear it is part of the doctrine of fines. It was unusual to take them into account. 114. (Mr. Thompson.) It may have been in those days, but not now, surely ; is that so ? — Down to this very day. You inquire of the accountant of any dean and chapter, unless they may happen to have been brought under the control of the Ecclesiastical Com- missioners, and I think you will find that there is a great audit book, in which the chief rental values of the several manors, but that the fines and foregifts for granting renewals arc considered to belong to and are divided between them every half year. ilo. {Lord Clarendon.) I do not thiuk the ques- tion is, what it is the habit of various deans and chap- ters to do, but whether it is in accordance with the Eton Statutes that this appropriation of the fines by the Provost and Fellows shall be made. You think it is ? — {3Ir. Dupuis.) I never thought it was not, or else my conscience would be loaded very much. 116. You say that the custom of dividing these fines is supposed to have existed from time immemo- rial, and that there has not been any record whatever kept of when it was begun ; but Mr. Huggett had some reasons for thinking that the practice was begun in 1661 by Craddock, then Fellow and subsequently Provost of Eton. Do you believe if was commenced about that time ? — I believe it was long before th.at. {The Provost.) There is certainly no change in (he audit book for 1661, as compared with 1660 and many years before, or any mention of tiiips in them. Dr. Craddock became Fellow 1679, Provost 1680. 117. I do not know how you will explain this; but it must have been a matter very often considered, and it seems to me that the appropriation of these fines, and their division between the members of the governing body, and their not using them for the pur- pose of defraying the ordinary expenses of the esta- blishment and the school, is in direct contravention of the statutes, because each of these statutes over and over again bind the Provost and Fellows b}' the most solemn oaths to adhere strictly to the stipendiary salaries s|)eciiicd by the founder, and to apply the whole of whatever surplus may remain to the College for the common use and advantage of the members of the foundation. The statutes, being so precise and specific in regard to this matter, the mode of applying the surplus revenue must often become a subject of discussion and consideration by the governing body, and I should like to know in what way they can reconcile the division of the fines with the observance of the statutes ? — {Mr. Dupuis) The only answer that I feel I can make to what your Lordship has asked is that it has always been so ; a bad reason, perhaps you will say, but I really do not know any other. We have been elected one after the other, with this system coming down to us, and we took it as we found it, and have been carrying it on. 118. Before Mr. Brougham's Committee of 1818, when some such question was asked of Dr. Goodall, I believe he admitted that the appropriation of the College fines by the administrators of the Eton revenues was neither statutable nor legal, although he. like you, said that other deans and chapters did the same. I believe he said that it was usage also ; but you see in 1818 the matter was brought before the governing body of Eton College, which was warned that it was not according to the statutes, and if I am not wrong in my quotation. Dr. Goodall admitted that it was not. Do you know whether that was so ? — Have you Dr. Goodall's very words ? {Mr. Batcheldor.) I do not think they went to that extent. If your Lordship will look at the ex- amination of Mr. Peter Hind, who certainly did speak what was quite correct and right, but who, when the question was put to him, did not give a very favourable answer. 119. {Mr. Thompson.) Who was Mr. Peter Hind? — He was a Fellow of King's andliad been an As- sistant Master of Eton. {Mr. Dupuis.) His evidence is in print. I have a copy of it at Eton. (Mr. Batcheldor.) I thiuk I have it here. He is asked, " Do you know whether, in letting leases, fines " are taken ? — Yes, they are ; at least I presume so. " What is done with the amount which is received for " fines? — It goes to the College revenue, and is " divided among the fellows, I believe. What is PUBLIC SCHOOLS COMMISSION : — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. " done with the timber on the estates ? — It goes to " the annual revenue. Are they not at all re- " strained in the statutes with respect to the fines •' and the feliiny the Act of Kli/.a- " beth, bv wliieii they must have a grain i-ent." Now, Mr. Peter Hind professed to know all about it, and I havo no doubt he did, because he was a very clever man, uud had lookgd well into the whole ques- tion. He was. in fact, asked whether he knew all about it, and he said he did, that he knew all about the statute of Elizabeth, and everything connected ■with the matter. 120. {Loid Li/lteUuii.) No doubt the argument of usage was employed upon that occasion, whether it was a good or bad one : but it appears to me iJiat! upon the t-.>rms of this statute, either fines were not contemplated at all, or that if they were contem- plated, they must of necessity be brought into the account. Must it not necessaiily be either the one or the other ? — I am not prepared to answer that question. I eaiiuot answer for what has happened except in my own time. 121. Setting aside the argument from usage alto- gether, and having reference entirely to the e.xact letter of the statute, does it not follow either that fines are not contemplated (under the words of the statutes), or that if they are, they must necessarily be brought to the audit or account ? — They certainly have not been brought to any audit or account, neither the one nor the other. I am sorry not to be able to give you any more satisfactory explanation, but that is my only answer. You may perhaps saj- it is illegal, but my repiv to that would be that it is not. 122. Not illegal, in the general sense of the word, but is it not contrary to the statutes of the College, which provide that all revenues wh.atever are to be brought to audit and account ? — I must repeat again that they certainly never have been brought to audit or account. 123. (Sir S. Northcote.) You have records from the earliest time, as T understand, of what was brought to audit and account ? — {Mr. Dupuis.) Yes. 124. But no record of any fines being brought to audit and account? — {Mr. Balcheldor.) Not one account of the kind. 12.5. You tliink, however, there is strong pre- sumptive evidence that fines were taken veiy early ? — I think it is perfectly clear that fines were taken here as in the case of other religious houses. 126. So that the practice which has prevailed, whether it was contrary to the statutes or not, has prevailed from the earliest times ? — Yes. 127. {Mr. Vaughan.) What is the earliest times at which you have jiroof of fines being taken ? — As far as I know during about 50 years of the present century. 128. Mj' question is what is the earliest period with respect to which you have any proof of fines being taken ? — As far as I know anything about it, I say during about .30 years of the present century. That is as far as my own knowledge goes. 129. With regard to a similar question which Sir Stafford Northcote asked you, I understood j'ou to give a different answer, and to say that there was proof of fines having been taken from the earliest time. Are you intending to qualify that answer ? — No. 130. {Sir S. Northcote.) I asked you whether there was not strong presumptive proof that fines were taken from the earliest time, and you replied that you thought fines were taken here as in other religious houses, was not that so ? — Yes. {Mr. Batcheldor.) I believe that if you look through any documents and records connected with church property, you will find that fines were always taken. In point of fact I think that leases were hardly ever granted without a sum of money being taken as a fine. It was, as I said before, similar to the sale of a portion of the estate, and when we find that a lease has been granted for 50 years at a small rent, I think we are bound to assume that there is a fine on renewal. 131. Are you not assuming the whole question, because it can scarcely be doubted that if a man let property at a small annual rent he would take a fine. Are you not assuming that a small and inadeqimte rent was taken from the earliest tinij ? — I should rather think it was. 132. {Lord LytteUon.) Can you show that the rent of any imrticular property was small and inadequate ? 133. {Mr. Vauylum.) Can you show that at the earliest time the rents which were given for par- ticular estates that were leased out wore rmall rnd inadequate ? — That is purely a matter of calculation. I think that when we find some of these considerable estates let as low as from 3/. to 4/. a year, it is purely a matter of calculation with reference to the coinage, which has varied in value in all agts. 134. {Lord Li/ttel ton.) Have you satisfied yourself whether that is a low rent, by referring to the value of the then existing currency, as compared with the present value of money ? — 1 think so ; I think all the rents were less than rack-rents would have been, and I have said so. 135. {Mr. Vanghaii.) Have you investigated the question ? — T have thought of it ; not investigated it particularly. 136. {Sir S. Northcote.) Some of the leases were reversionary leases, were they not ? — Yes. 137. Is it probable that reversionary leases were granted, except on the condition of a fine being paid ? — Certainly not. 138. (-1 Commissioner.) Will you just sa}- what you mean by a reversionary lease ? — A lease granted in reversion after another lease has expired. 139. (.'//•. Vaiighax.) A reversion, properly speak- ing, would be in the owner of the fee, would it not ?^ No ; not exactly. 140. {A Commissioner.) They are concurrent leases, are they not ? — They are to all intents and purposes concurrent leases. In this very land leased by Sir T. Smith the lease is reversionary, and the statute of Elizabeth was passed to cure these seeming defects. 141. {Mr. Thompson.) Could there be any motive in a body religious, or otherwise, letting land on lease in that reversionary manner, unless for the purpose of obtaining some present advantage ? — Certainly not ; and the present advantage was the fine they took for it, 142. {Mr. Vaiighoii.) Permit me to jmint out to you the language of the statute that seems to contra- dict the doctrine that the account was to be limited to rents which were inadequate, in fact are not the bursars required to give not simply an account of the rents, but to render a strict account " of the true annual value of the property ? " — Yes. 143. Do you think it is consistent with the ex- pression " true annual value of the property " that they should give an account of the rent only, and not of anything else which pertains to the true annual value of the property ? — Yes ; according to the estimated value of the rent at the time the lease was made. I think it is extremely probable that they would con- sider a fair reserved rent such a sum as might be reserved in the lease. 144. Would that, which is in your opinion a mere inadequate rent, be a sum which would represent the true annual value of the property ? — No ; it would not be equal to the rack-rental value. 145. Do you think that you could put any other interpretation upon the words "the true annual value " of all and singular the manors, lands, rents, houses, " tenements," as well as " of all the receipts of the " past year," than that the real annual value of the property, whatever may have been the form in which the money was received, should bo brought into the account? — Yes; of course you quite understand that I am giving you a correct answer. You have asked in your written questions for a return of the annual value for the year 1860 of the College estates, and we have given you the annual value. 146. {Lord Lyttelton.) That is apart from the fines ? — We have not put the fines in that return, because, in point of fact, they are an incumbrance on the estate. They are a charge upon the estate ; but A 4 ETON; Reu. C. O. Goodjord. Bev. O. J. Dupuis. T. Batcheldor, Esq. 4 July 1862. PUBLIC SCHOOLS COSfMISSION :— MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. ETON. liev. G. J, Dupuis. r. BatchMur, Esq. 4 July 1862. you will allow me to sny tlmt all tlic fiiifs for the la.st 20 years are returned. liu: (Mr. Diipiiii.) To fiiul tlie rental of the College, C. O. Goud/orJ. y()y should add the ground rental here to the fines. """ (jifi: Udtfhchtor.) You will find that whenever the .subject is investigated, it will be fraught with a great deal of diffieulty, and that no satisfactory account can be had of it till the time of Elizabeth. I am merely showing the practice under the administration of Sir T. Smith, and what his view of it was. 1-17. (.'/;•. 7'/ioMjt.ioii.) There is no |)rohibitiou in the statutes of any fines or foregifts ? — No. HS. Would you argue from that in favour of the existence of the inacticc ?— If I were capable of ar- guing the question at all, I should say that the estates were given to the Provost and College of Eton, con- veyed to them with full powers over the freehold, sub- ject to the charges contained in the statutes ; and that possessing those powers they have exercised them, and granted leases, and, according to the practice of the time, have taken fines, and done the best they could with the |iroper(y. 149. You think that the absence of any prohibition to take fines must have been construed Iry the original Provost and Fellows as conveying to them a right to receive such fines ? — Fines have been taken. loO. Do you think that the absence of any pro- hibition against taking fines in the statutes was con- strued by the original Provost and Fellows as giving them permission to do what all other religious bodies did? Is that your argument ? — I should not like it to be said that I was arguing the point at all. 151. What would be your impression upon that point ? — That is my opinion, because Sir T. Smith has done a great many things that were absolutely restrained by the statutes, and no doubt he thought he was doing right. 152. {Lord Lijtteltoii.) With regard to the first long lease, to Ck>pton, what was the amount of the reserved rent on that letting for 50 years ? — 21. S.s. 4(/. 153. What is the extent of the estate ? — I do not know exactly. It is some laud at Laugley, I believe. {Mr. Dupuis.) It does not belong to the College now. 154. How much is it ? — I can get it. I have not taken out the parcels, because I was not aware it was necessary ; but if you will allow me I will sketch out the parcels. 155. What I want to find is, with reference to the comparative smallness of the I'eserved rents in these early lettings ; and I wish to know whether you do not think the}' aflbrd a strong presumption that fines were to be taken on renewal. Can you point out any ease in which the rent is so small as to raise that inference. What is Creeting ? — Crecting rental is 40 marks. 156. What is the extent of the land ? (Mr. Batrheldor.) The manor and the whole demesne lands, free of tithes. {Mr. Dupuis.) Not the tithes, they belong to the rector. The property of Creeting, that is to say, the land, is 230 acres in extent ; but who can say what it was worth in Henry YIII.'s time? The College are lords of the manor of Creeting, which consists of a number of copyholds which will all have a fine on them when dropped. There is another estate of Creeting, 30 acres more, but how can -we arrive at what it was worth originally ? 1.57. What is that let at ?—{Mr. Batchehlor.) 40 marks, I think ; and a mark was then 13*. 4rf. {}fr. Dupuis.) It is something over 30/. a year. 15S. {Mr. T/ioinpsnn.) Something under, is it not ? — It was at that time. 159. {Lord Clarendon.) But these fines never ap- peared in the accounts of the foundation ? — Never. 160. Do you think then that that gives a fair esti- mate of what the annual value of the property is. Supposing, for instance, a man pays a fine for having a lease granted or renewed, say he pays a large fine ; r.nd n))on that account land is let at os. an acre, which, if he had not paid i(, would be let at £1 .an acre ; ought (lot the fine to be brought into the account, in order to comply with the statutes, which say that the whole annual value of the property should be brought to audit and account. Is not this part of the real value of the property, and ought it not to be put into the accounts in order to give a correct statement of the receipts of the College ? — I have said that the amount of the fines should be added to the rents if you wish to obtain the actual value of the property. But, as I have said before, the fines have never been brought into the accounts. 161. {Mr. Vaughan.) Should you consider fiines on land, such as Lord Clarendon has been referring to, would fiill under the term, " fiuctibus, redditibus, et " proventibus ?" — I should. 162. Should you think it possible to exclude them ? _No. 163. {Lord Lyttelton.) " Omnium receptorum," " fructibus, redditibus, et proventibus," these words would include them ? — Yes. 164. {Sir S. Nortlicote.) In Dr. Goodall's evi- dence reference is made to a petition which was jiresented to the Provost by Sir H. Saville. The Provost states that among the muniments of the College there exists a petition to the Provost from the Fellows, which was presented by Sir H. Saville, praying him to increase their allowances. Do you know any thing of that petition ? — {Mr. Dupuis.) No, I do not. 165. Do you, Mr. Batcheldor ? — {Mr. Batcheldor.) No. 166. {Lord Clarendon.) You have given a list of the fines which have been levied during the last 20 years in one of these tables, have you not ? — Y'^e.s. 167. You have not estimated the sum total of those fines have you ? — {Mr. Dupuis.) There is a sum total at the bottom. 168. {L^ord Lyltelton.) An average for the 20 years ? — {Mr. Batcheldor.) No, you will find in another page, in a paper marked A 1, the full total. It is 1 27,700/. fines on renewal of leases. The average is given under it, 6,385/. annually. 169. {T^ord Clarendon.) That is excluding the amount received from fines and heriots from manors during the last 20 years is it not ? — Those are gi\eu to the College fund. 170. They are ? — Yes, all the proceeds of heriots from manors. 171. And the fines on renewal of leases during the last 20 years ainount to 127,700/. — Yes. 172. And that amount of fines has been divided during the last 20 years among the Provost and Fellows ?— Yes. 173. The Provost taking two shares to each Fellow's one ? — Yes, that has been so. 174. And it has appeared to the Provost and Fellows that there is nothing contrary to the statutes in their so doing ? — No. (J/r. Dupuis.) The fines and hei-iots of the manors, as you will perceive, were taken into ac- count. It is only the fines on renewals of leases that Avere not. Y''ou will observe that there is also a total amount of receipts given of those fines that were taken into account, which will show you the amount at once. The amount that was received for fines and heriots for manors last year was 700/. (yl/r. Batcheldor.) The average amount for the last 20 3'ears is 482/. 6s. \\d annually. 175. (Loi-d L.yttelton.) That comes into the account ? — Yes. 176. {Lord Devon.) I observe that in answer to question 4, you say some alteration has taken place within the last 50 years. " Till within the last " 50 years," you say, " nearly all the estates were out " upon lease either for lives or terms of years. Some " of these have since been let at rack-rent in order to " meet the increased annual expenditure of the " College." That is so ? — Certainly ; the expenditure has been much increased. 177. Would it not seem to follow from that, that if any fair and reasonable cause were assigned for the further increase of expenditure to a considerable PUBLIC SCHOOLS COMMISSION : — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. amount, the Provost and Fellows -woiiUl recognize the principle of so dealing witli the property as to meet the necessary increase of expenditnre which arises from the alteration in the mode of life? — Yes, and thev have done so by allowing 22 leases to run ont. 178. Therefore yon are beginning to adojit that principle ? — Certainly. 179. {Lord Li/ltelfoii.) But at your discretion? — Certainly. 180. {Lord Devon.) The question lias been asked, whether you have ever formed any estimate at all, sup- posing all the leases were allowed to run out, what your annual income would be in 20 years hence ? — Noiu- that I should consider at all accurate or which could be depended upon. I have my own idea about it, of course, which must be taken at its own value. I should say that the revtynies which at present are about 20,000/. a year, including lines and everything else, would, if all these leases were run out, increase the College property about one third ; therefore it would be about 30,000/. ii year, but 1 do not i>retend to give any acnirate information upon a question like that. 181. {I^ord Clarendon.) With respect to the pro- perty in regard to which you say that 22 leases have been permitted to run out, is that property of considerable extent ? — One of them is of considerable extent, namely, the estate ofModbnry, in Devonshire. There is also an estate in Sussex. The Duke of Richmond is at present the lessee of the College. The lease in that case is not to be renewed, but is running out. It is near Chichester. 182. Do I understand you that you would not renew the lease, or is it that no api)lication has been made for its renewal ? — We did not renew it because no application was made. There is also house \iyo- perty in Westminster of considerable value, which is running out. 183. You do not intend to renew simply because your tenants do not wish to do so ; is that the case ? — There is some other property which we decline to renew ; it is cliietly house property in Eton ami Windsor. I should sa^-, with respect to many of the estates, the leases antecedent to our time were allowed to run out liy oiu' predecessors. There are some large estates in Dorsetshire, over 1,000 acres, the leases of which our predecessors allowed to run out, and they are now on rack-rental. There are other estates, the leases of which we intend shall riui out. A great deal of our laud is copyhold, with lives on it, so that it will be a great many years before it will fall into hand. 184. Perhaps your predecessors were animated by a notion that it was better for the College property that those leases should be allowed to run out ? — I cannot pretend to answer for them. 185. {Lord Lyttelton.) It is clear that the tenants did not make any application to renew the leases ? — Not the least. There is another estate in Oxford- shire, called Little Tew, which is a capital estate, and has long been let at rack-rent ; but I am not aware of the circumstances under which it came to be at rack-rent. It is let now at 317/. a year. 186. It was at one time on lease, like the rest? — No doubt. There is also an estate in Mon- mouthshire, which is also at rack-rent. 187. Do I understand you to say that originally the whole of the property was let, subject to fines ? — I cannot say. 188. Did the College refuse to renew in the case of Modbury ? — No, the tenant declined to renew only last year. 189. {Lord Clarendon.) Was there any propo- sition made to the tenant with reference to renewal ? — Yes ; when the usual time came round the lessee was communicated with, but whether from age or other circumstances he said it would not be worth his while to renew, and therefore he declined to do so. 190. It is rather, then, from the tenant's declining to renew than from any interposition on the part of the College that these leases have not been renewed ? 1. ETON. liev. CO. Good/or J. Bev. G. J. Dupuis, T. BatchdJor, Esq. — We should have renewed, certainly, if he had re- quested us to do so. 191. We rather understood, when you said that 22 leases had not been renewed, that it was conse- quent on the adoption of some new plan introduced for the benefit of the College ? — Not in the case of Modbury ; we did not initiate the matter. 192. '• The increased annual expenditure has arisen partly from the increased allowances of connnons, ■* "^"'y \9&2. attendance, &c., made to the King's scholars." It ^-— ^— would be well to have on record what these increased allowances for connnons, atteiulance, &c., are. WUl you have the goodness to inform ns ; and it might be as well also to state what the condition of things was which rendered that increased expenditure neces- sary ? — I think that some of the answers lower down will finnisli that information. 193. {L^ord Li/tlrllon.) Would not some of them be for additional luiihlings ? — {Mr. Dnfins.) There is a greater allowance ibr their meals (breakfast, dinner, and supper); at no time within my memory have so gooy referring lo the audit liooli. 203. Wlinl I mean to say is, lliat in tlie 1,000/. wiiieli you now speak of as the cost of the additional conimmi.-i, : ilendauee, &c., you do not include any jiortion of the interest of the Godolphin fund which you have borrowed ? — No. With respect to the in- creased allowance for commons, all 1 can say is, that when I was a bo)-, some 40 or 50 yeai's ago, the dinner wliieh wo used to have was, so to speak, no dinner at all. We do not take any credit to ourselves for imiiroving the .system ; we have been merely per- forming our duty V)y doing so, and I assure you that it has been a pleasure for us to do so. I should like you to have seen the way in which the boys were treated formeiiy, so as to be able to compare it with that in whicli they are now served ; nor do I say tliat everything is done which can be done in the way of ini|irovement, by any means. 204. {Lord Clarendon.) Were not the College bound to have provided out of the Godolphin fund a diflerent and superior description of food for the boys to thai which they did ? — Yes, in former days they ought to have done so, no doubt. 205. How much does that amount to ? — {Mr. Batclicldor.) It was 5,o.K)/. ; the College have accu- mulated the remainder themselves. The original gift was 4,000/., and the interest on that was 150/. or 160/. a year. The College accumulated the fund themselves, and they also added to the commons something beyond what the boys used to have in those days. Godolphin lofi, 4,000/., which produced 5,550/. in stock. 206. {iSir S. Norlhcote.) And the diifereuce be- tween that and the existing fund has been accumu- lated by the College ? — Yes. 207. {Lord Devon.) At the time you were a boy there, Mr. Dupuis, you ought to have had the full benefit of Dr. Godolphin's benefaction ; you were there as a boy subsequently to its being given to the College, were you not? — {3Ir. Dupitis.) Dr. Godol- phin's benefaction was in operation certainly when I was there as a boy, but what good we got by it I really cannot say. I only know that my dinners, as I said before, were really no dinners at all. I believe that the puddings in the Hall ou the Sundays origi- nated in Dr. Godolphin's benefaction. 208. [Lord Clarendon.) The benefactor says specifically that the i)roceeds of his legacy shall be expended in beef, mutton, and puddings for the Collegers ? — Yes. 209. {Sir S. Northcotc.) But instead of providing food for the boys in that waj^ they accumulated the interest and increased the fund ? — I presume so. 210. {Mr. Vuugltan.) Was it not a specific pro- vision of the founder that the proceeds of certain estates were to be expended in providing commons for the school ? — They were to be fed, no doubt. Not a doubt can be entertained upon that point. 211. The sum was originally for every scholar \0d. for his commons. Tenpence, I presume, was a suffi- cient sura at that time, for the Fellows had only 18rf. The same provision that gave lOrf. to the Scholars gave ISrf. to the Fellows, and more to the Provost ? —{The Provost.) I think you will find that the Provost was to have double the Fellows. 212. That was only for food was it ? — Food only. 213. {Mr. Thompson.) Was that weekly ?—( J/;-. Dupuis.) Yes, weekly. 214. {I^ord Clarendon.) Multiplying that by 16 for the difference in the value of money, that would make 160 pence, or 13x. 4rf. a week ?— Yes, I think it would come to more than that sum now. 215. I think in your time you ought to have had some dinners for that ?— Yes, I ought in my time, in regard to llic allowance for commons ; for, although it was well known that the Fellows received eighteen- pence a day and the Provost three shillings, it is equally well known that we now receive no commons at all except on a few days in the year. No doubt we have by statute the right to be maintained every day, bu( that has long ceased. 216. And no compensation whatever was given? —No. 217. {Mr. Thompson.) Nor to the Provost either ? —No. 218. {Lord Lyttelfon.) Do you know how long it is since that ceased ? — In my memory, as a boy, there was an audit dinner at the Fellows' table three times a week on the three whole school days, Monday, AVednesday, and Friday. I was quite a boy then ; but I recollect the audit dinner, and that the Head Master as well as the Fellows attended it. It ceased 45 years ago. There was no compensation whatever o-iven in lieu of it, and we might renew it to-morrow if we liked, and claim our commons. 219. {Lord Clarendon.) You say that in 1842 a new wing to the College was built for the better accommodation of the school. Though greatly assisted by the munificent contributions of old Etonians, the College provided a large sum in addition ; and again, in the next paragraph, the College Chapel has been repaired and beautified, as also the hall ; and, although here again the expense was defrayed in great part by a very handsome and liberal gift of one of the present fellows, yet the improvement had not been completed without considerable outlay on the part of the College. Of course there has been an account kept of these contributions ? — Yes, there is an account of every subscription kept in the library. 220. You could not tell from memory what the amount was, I presume ? — No, I have not looked at it for years. 221. Will you have the goodness to furnish us with it ? — With the sums contributed do you mean ?^ 222. Yes : both the cost of the work and the sum contributed by the old Etonians and the College ? — Yes.* 223. {Lord Lyttelton.) Will you also furnish us with an account of the amount of subscriptions given by the College to the building of St. John's Church, towards which you say it contributed largely. The school uses that church, does it not ? — I do not think the amount of these subscriptions is mentioned. Is it the cemetery chapel you mean ? 224. No ; the cemetery chapel, we understand, was buUt entirely at the expense of the College. What I meant was, the amount of contribution given by the College to the building of St. John's Church. It will be better to have an account of that as well as the other, because there was a large subscription ? — {Mr. Batcheldor.) Yes. 225. {I^ord Clarendon.) We do not want the sum subscribed by Mr. A. or Mr. B., but simply the total ? — All this was done at very considerable expense ; I think about 28,000/., and of course it could not be met by the ordinary funds of the College. It was, therefore, necessar}', from time to time, to borrow money. 226. But is it all appropriated ? — You want the several items. 227. {Lord Lyttelton.) Do I understand that the improved sewerage was done solely at the expense of the College ? — {Mr. Dupuis.) Yes. 228. {Lord Devon.) Is it satisfactory ? — Most satisfactory. There is not a finer system of sewerage anywhere than there is at Eton. {3Ir. Batcheldor.) There is not a gallon of sewage made that is not at least three miles away in half an hour. It falls into the stream below the weir, and the velocity of that stream is about three miles an hour. It is a particularly large sewer, and the water runs in from the Thames, so that there is constantly a large stream of water passing through it, so that every particle of sewage that is created is diluted and dispersed. 229. (Sir S. Northcote.) Do you think that the construction of that sewer has improved the health of the place ? — A very great deal. 230. {Mr. Vaughan.) As to the application of the funds which you have mentioned to the increased accommodation in building, was not that application in obedience to the statutes of your founder, that is to • See Mr. Batcheldor's letter, infra, p. 63. PUBLIC SCHOOLS COiMMISSION : — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 11 say, in compliance with them ? — Do you mean to say that we were bouiul by the statutes so to apply the funds? 231. I do not ask quite so much as that, but whether that application of the funds of the College was not strictly in accordance with the directions of the founder ? — ( TV/c Provost.) There was no violation of the statutes, certainly, in niakin.!^ those additional acoommodatious. 232. In so api)lying the money ? — I supi)«)sc that there was no violation of the statutes in so doing. 233. Was it not only no viulation, Imt an applica- tion of money strictly in fultilmcnt of the statutes? — (J/r. Diipitis.) I suppose that they were bound to maintain tliese boys comforlablj', and it was stated that they were not niaiutained comfortably; and great exertions were made to increase the accommodation by additional buildings. 234. I wish, ill reference to tliese buildings, to ask you whether there is not a special statute which pro- vides for the "sustentatio et reparatio ecclesire et " aulie, ac aliorum Eediticiorum ejusdem ?" — Yes. 235. That you will find sa}'* : " Item, Volumus, " Statuimus, et etiam ordinanius, quod eeclesia nostri " Regalis Collegii, et aula, singulaque alia ;edificia " ejusdem, Dei adjutorio laboriose nostris sumptibus " ffidificata, in muris, co-operturis et qualibet sui parte ■" perpetuis futuris temporibns debite, sufficienter, et " congrue in omnibus susteulentur." In the previous statute, •' de dispositione canierarum," it is stated how the boys are to be placed, if under 40 in number; and in this to which I am alluding, it goes on to say, " Pneterea ordinanius et volumus cjuod cum nova; ^' ffiditicationes vel aliqua» reparationcs domorum im- " mineant faciendie ;" so tiiat a work of re-erection and new erection was contemplated by tlie statutes. What I want to know is. whether you have done this as a work of new erection or re-ereetion, under the statutes ? — It is a work of new erection, no doubt. 236. {Lord Li/lfclfo».) Would the goveruing body under the statutes be called upon not only to keep in repair the College buildings, but to make complete alterations and additional buildings, such as were not originally n.anied or referred to in the statutes ? — That I cannot say. If the statutes bind us in one thing they would bind us in another. 237. (Mr. Vail (/It a II.) Was the sewerage at all for the benefit oi' the town? — Not originally, nor is it now. {Mr. Batcheldor.) No, it is entirelv for the College. 238. Solely for the benefit of the College ?— -Yes.^ {Mr. Batclieldor.) The town declined to have any- thing to do with it. {Mr. Ditpiiis.') I thought we refused to allow them to come in. 239. {Mr. Vaughan.) Did not many of the board- ing houses have the advantage of it ? — Yes. {Mr. Batclieldor.) Every house within the precincts of the College was included. {Mr. Diipuis.) The sewerage was originally made in Heur}' the Sixth's time, and a more remarkable system of sewerage is not to be seen in England. In 1441 the old sluice sewer was made, and it is still in operation. Those who saw it at the time the altera- tions were made were amazed at it. {Mr. Batcheldor.) And yet it is a common sluice sewer. 240. {Lord Clarendon.) You say that the ground for a new cemetery was acquired and a cemetery built at the sole expense of the College, and that the main- tenance of this devolves wholly upon the College ; is that so ? — -Entirely. 241. Is that maintenance what may be termed a very large outgoing ? — Not as yet. It is a new build- ing ; in point of fact, the cemetery chapel is not yet 20 years old. ( The Provost.) It is about that. {Mr. Dupiiis.) The building has never yet required repair, but whenever repairs are necessary the ex- pense will fall on the College. 242. {Lord Clarendon.) Is the cemetery exclu- sively for the use of the town ? — For the entire parish of Eton. 243. Which you are bound to provide for ? — Yes. ETON. It is all conveyed to the foundation ; tiiey have the whole charge of it. -Kew- 244. You have availed yourselves of the oj.por- C.O.OwilforH. tunity of exchanging property at Prinnose Hill for q j jrj ' „,-, property belonging to the Crown in Eton, and you y. Batclieldor, say that by doing so you were enabled to remove Esq. many houses in the vicinity whicli were scarcely habitable, .and to erect upon tlio site assistant masters' ■* "^"'y ^*--- houses ; do you consider these assistant masters' " houses to belong to the College ? — They are the pro- pert)' of the College, which receives a rental for them. 245. Do yoLi mean that the rental is paid by each of the assistant masters ? — Some of the assistant masters are not tenants of the College. All the houses in the town of Eton do not belong to the College. 246. Are these houses you allude to boarding houses entirely ? — Entirely. 247. You build no houses except assistant masters' houses ? — None. We are building one now. 248. And when they are built they will be the pro- perty of the College, and will be let as an investment? —Yes. {Mr. Batcheldor.) The exchange which was made produces about 800/. a year, the whole of whicli the College acquired liy the surrender of a portion of the property at Haverstock Hill; that is tosay, the domus acquired 800/. a year by that transaction. 249. {I^ord Clarendon.) You say that the carrying out all these arrangements was not effected without very consiilcrable cost, about 28,000/., which could not be met by the ordinary funds of the College, and that notwithstanding the munificent contrilmtions of old Etonains you were obliged to borrow a large sum of money ? — Yes. 250. I do not know whether you gave the date of these loans, or the objects for which the money was borrowed, in the tabular statement of llie fortiiiti pro- ventiis at page 13 ? — I think the table gives the date for 20 years of the sums paid by the Provost and Fellows towards the repayment of the money, stating what was done in every year. 251. From 1841 to 1861 ?— Yes. You will find in each year a statement of the sum paid. 252. I .see that the total sum for loans borrowed for Imildings and other works amounts to 19,090/.? — Yes. 253. That amount was necessary, besides all these contributions ? — Yes. 254. And that has been in j)rocess of repayment ? — It has, with the exception of what was borrowed from the Godolphin fund, which, I think it is stated, is not yet repaid. 255. How has that been repaid, altogether by the Provost and Fellows ? — It has been repaid by great exertions. We taxed ourselves out of our own incomes at the rate of 10 percent, for 14 or 15 years. I think it is mentioned that wx' paid 8,422/. by voluntary taxa- tion, and the rest has beeu made up by surplus revenue arising from the careful management of the funds. Supposing, for instance, the expenditure of the College was 10,000/. a year, and the receipts from rentals were 12,C00/., then 2,000/. would be available for this pur- pose, and it has been put by, and with the exception of the money borrowed from the Godolphin fund, it has been paid off for the last four or five years. 256. The Godolphin fund is 8,000/., is it not ?— We consider ourselves amenable for the sum which Dr. Godolphin left, which was 5,550/. 257. But it amounts to 8,000/. now? — Yes, because it has been accumulated at different times, and it has now arrived at the sum of 8,000/. 258. But this accumulation has been at the expense of the scholars, as it seems to me, because the money was to be spent in beef and pudding. That was the purpose for which it was left, and it is plain it has not been employed in that way. How, then, is that to affect beneficially the present Provost and Fellows. How could it have accumulated if it had been em- ployed in the manner in which the testator intended ? — I do not know. B 2 12 PUBLIC SCHOOLS COMMISSION -.—MINUTES OF EVIDENCK. ETON. Jiea. C.O.OwHiford. Jlvv. G. J. Dupttis. T. Butcheldor, £'■'/■ 4 July 1SG2. lilo llic two thing?, the accuniiihition cuu- hing now. L' accuimi- {Lord Chirendoii.) But having been accumulated by the governing b.xlv, and having now amounted to 8,000/., we must consider it as a legacy. I do not tliink we can deduct from fliat the sum wliicii has aceuMiuhited. I see liiat you consider yourselves rcspousible for only the 'iJhiOl. which was left. not ."Cc how von can separate 259. {Lord LijItdUm.) Is tinning ? — No. {Mr. Diipiiis.) Nor is it likely to continue 260. {Lord Clarciulnn.) How long lias th lation been going on ? — I do not know. 261. It was .3,,5JO/. when it was left. Then you say that the dividends have accumulated from time to time, in consequence of the manner in which it has been invested by the College, until it amounted to 8,000/., when it was borrowed in 1844 for the pur- pose of carrying out the improvements which you have mentioned ?—(.1/r. Batchcldor.) The College have given notice that that is to he. repaid, I think, in these returns. 262. But are they accountable for the repayment of the original legacy only, and not accountable for the accumulation, because you say you have borrowed the whole of it ? — Yes. 263. Then in addition to this 19,000/., which you say has been repaid, there is still 8,000/. of the Godolpliin fund to be repaid ? — Yes. 264. So that in fact that will be surplus revenue, and taking the 8,422/. which the Provost and Fellows have repaid, and the 8,000/. of the Godolphin fund which is to be repaid, th.at will make 16,422/. which is to be treated as surjjlus revenue, and of that sum there has only been repaid 8,000/.? — Not by domus. 265. {Lord Lyttelton.) It appears that the Go- dolphin fund was borrowed for cognate purposes, namely, for alterations in the building? — {3Ir. Dupuis.) The borrowing of that fund h.as enabled us to make great improvements in the building. 266. But that is not the purpose for which Dr. Godolphin left it ? — But the interest goes on just the same, and is applied for the purposes for which it was left. 267. {Mr. Vai/ff/ia/i.) You do .ij'liiy the interest to the purposes for which Dr. Goldoljihin left the money? — Yes. {Mr. Batchcldor.) It is a charge for the dieta. 268. {Lord Cliire7ido)i.) While we are on this point of revenue, I would just call your attention to the compensation for land taken for the v.ailway. I see in the table at page 13 it is put down at 8,372/. Has that been carried to the College fund ? — Yes, it has been carried to the College account every j'ear, and a considerable portion of it has been laid out in the purchase of other land. {Mr. Biifchcldor.) It, has been laid out and re-in- vested under the Lands Clauses Consolidation Act. {Mr. Dupuis.) It is invested in the funds, and therefrom the College receives the annual dividend. 269. Does that come under the audit just the same as the other income of the College ? — Yes. 270. The result has been to increase considerably the revenue of the College, and materially to improve the condition of the place. No doubt that is the foct, but in what w.ay has it increased the revenue of the College ?— (J/r. Batchcldor.) You will find that by the second table. {Mr. Dupuis.) The rental of the bouses that we have been enabled to build by means of the exchano-e of_ property, which has been very advantageous,°I think I am not wrong in saying "that the increased rental of the College by means of that exchange in Eton alolic has been 1,000/. a year. Is not that so, Mr. V,u{c\i(i\<\o\'i—{ Mr. Batchcldor.) Nearer 2,000/. a year. 271. {Mr. Vaiighan.) Have not the Provost .ind Fellows any advantage of th.at increa,se of income, to which their personal sacrifice of income has con- tributed ?— No, tlu>y have nothing to do with it ; it goes to the expenses of the College. {Mr. Dupuis.) It is only the fines which go to the Provost and Fellows. The increased rentals you will see by the table are made up annually in the accounts and go to the College. {Mr. Batchcldor.) The rents and rack-rents re- ceived in 1841 .amounted to 6,646/. 5s. 9^d. 272. And from that increase you say the Provost and Fellows got no benefit at all ? — No. In 1860 the rents and rack-rents .amounted to 10,807/. I5s. o\d. 273. {Sir S. Northcote.) Are the houses and lands occupied by the assistant masters let on rack-rents ? — Yes, let on rack-rents. {Mr. Dupuis.) Mr. Coleridge's is on a ground-rent, which lease is still in force for 10 j'ears, and when this falls in it will be an additional source of revenue. 274. {Lord Devon.) Is 1,298/. about the aver.age amount expended on repairs ? — About. 275. {Mr. Vaughan.) Does the first sum for dieta, amounting to 2,688/. 3«. 4^f/., which is set down for commons of the scholars, and public dinners for the school at election, founder's day, and other festivals, include any other public dinners? — It is all put down here, I believe, bread, beer, mutton, beef, and other commons for the scholars, servants, and almswomeii for the year, provisions for the several public dinners at election, founder's day, and other festivals. 276. {A Commissioner.) " For the several iiublic dinners ;" that sounds very like entertainments. Who partake of these public dinners. Not the scholars ? — There are public dinners served in the Hall on these days. 277. {Sir S.jVorthcote.) The whole detail is given, I suppose, on page 14 ? — {3Ir. Batchcldor.) Yes, the amount of every dinner. 278. {3Ir. ] auglian.) I wish to know, with regard to all those items and public dinners, how much is for the scholars and how much for other persons ? — The jjublic dinners are a mere trifle compared with the general account. There are about three or four public dinners during the year. {Mr. Dupuis.) You may put them down at 100/. a year if you add the audit dinners. 279. Is there included in the charge for dieta any- thing consumed by the Provost and Fellows ? — (il/r. Butcheldor.) The item bread account will throw some light on it. Deduct for bread paid for the Provost and Fellows, so much. Everything they have at the buttery is paid for and deducted on account. 280. That is included in the dieta, then, is it ? — Yes, and deducted afterwards. 281. That is to say, there is a certain .amount of beer or bread for the Provost and Fellows ? — Yes. {Mr. Dupuis.) There is no allowance foi- beer for the Provost and Fellows, except an allowance to the Provost in lieu of ale. 282. {Mr. Thompson.) They actually pay for it ? — Yes, they all have to p.ay for it. 283. And then it is deducted ?— Yes. 284. {Mr. Vauffhan.) But in the dieta talde some is paid for and some not ; is there any distinction between the two ? — There are 4 hogsheads of ale allowed by ancient custom to the Provost, and if he has more than that he must pay for it. 285. It is a very small item ; is that all that the Provost and Fellows receive from the dieta ? — {Mr. Batchcldor.) The customary allowances to the Provost and Fellows do not amoimt to anything like 100/. a year out of the charge on the dieta. 286. Does not the charge for dieta come in the place of the commons that were provided for the scholars by the statutes ? — It is part of it. 287. And by the same statute certain commons are provided by the Founder for the Provost and Fellows? —Yes. 288. Have they the benefit of that now ? — No, nor any compensation for it. 289. Do you know when they first ceased to have the benefit of that ? — I said just now there Avere about three dinners a week, called .audit dinners. They are the last remnant of it. No doubt in olden times they dined every day in Hall. 290. {Lord L.yttclton.) Who dines at the public PUBLIC SCHOOLS COMMISSION: — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE, 13 table ? TheHciul Afnster and assistant master in Col- Ice. Thoy are present. I suppose they make it a lunch. ^291. {Mr. VaiKjhait.) Does that '2,(588/. all come out of the revenues of the College, independently of the Godolphin bequest, or does the Godolphin bequest come in in aid of that charge? — If 3'ou turn to page 15 you will see that it is taken from it ; that is to say, there is paid by the Godolphin fund 189/. 7s. 2d. out of a charge for mutton and beef served for the scliolars' commons, wliich amounts to 1,046/. 14*. 6f/. 292. It is deducted, then ? — Yes, you -will see the ^vllole details on page 15. 293. That will reduce it to 857/. Is. Ad. ?— Yes. 294. Is that the ellect of it, or not ? — Yes. 295. Then the whole of this 2,688/. does not come out of the revenues derived from fines, lieriots, and the produce of the timber of the College ? — (^Mr. Diipuis.) It all comes out of it. This dieta includes beer, and bread and milk, and so on. {Mr. Bafchcldor.) The Godolphin fund has to be deducted ? — Yes. 296. It has to be ? — Yes ; before the account is made up. That is the total amount of the first item. 297. \VIiat would it be with the deduction ? — It is already deducted as a matter of account. The total amount for beef and mutton is 1,046/. 14*. Gd., from which is deducted 189/. 7a. 2'/., leaving a residue of 857/. 7*. 4f/., paid out of the College revenues for these purposes. 298. {Sir S. Northcofe.) In answer to question 7, you say the total amount received on account of the College for the year 1860 Avas l:i,219/. ; but when I look at the bottom of page 22, where you give the detail of the expenditure, and the balance due to the bursar, I find that the '• sunima totius oneris nt " patet ex titulis viginti prcccdentibus," amounts to 14,304/. 7s. lOd. Does that represent the same sums as those wliich are represented by the total receijits, or what is there deducted in the former case ? — In order to make the sum total, you must add the balance from the preceding year, which will make it right. 299. {Mr. Vtufff/ian.) With respect to the libcra- tura, being the gown cloth of the scholars, choristers, and servants' liveries, is there not a provision made for that by the statutes ? — Yes. 300. Was there not by the same statute a similar provision, or ratlicr, to speak more correctly, a corre- sponding ])rovision made for the Provost and the, scholars ? — I think so. 301. Have they received any further benefit ; that is to say, is there anything in the way of clothing that is provided for the scholars ? — Yes ; the gowns. 302. Is that the only thing which the scholars receive in the way of vestiture ? — Yes. 303. Do you consider that, under the statute, that is all the clothing to which they are entitled. The statute says that they are to have " do bonis coinmu- " nibus ejusdem Collegii omnia alia et singula quK ad " vestitum pertinent." Do you not think that would properly include other clothes than the gown ? — It is difficult to say. I suppose it would be the eccle- siastical dress of the time. 304. Do you think that, in the time of the founder, it was not intended by that that the scholars should be clothed ? — I cannot say. 305. Do you think they were not to have shoes ? — I cannot say. 306. Nor any outer garments ? — I cannot say. 307. Xor a hat ? — No. They probably wore no hat at all, like the Blue Coat school boys in the streets of London. 308. Are you referring to the same statute by which the scholars shall have " de bonis commuuibus " ejusdem Collegii omnia alia et singula qu» ad " vestitum ; " that gives clothes exclusive of and besides the gown ? — No ; that is included. 309. I should like you to look at the statute for a moment ? — I believe I am speaking accurately. The statute mentions the exact quantity of cloth they shall have in their garments. 7f<>i'. O. ./. Diipuis. r. BatchMur, 4 July 1862. {Mr. Vdiighctii.) If you turn to the statute de com- KTON. muni ansura vestium liberata, you will find in that statute of the founder the following passage : — , ^<^''- " Statuentes priEterea, quod Scholares dicti Regalis CO.Goodford " Collegii univcrsi, et clerici, ae choristie, necnon " xiii. pauperes juvenes pra;dicti, erga dictum festum " Natalis Domini singulis annis imperpetuum, de " bonis communihus ejusdem Collegii, de pnnno, ut " pra^fertur, similis aiit prope similis coloris, licet " diversi pretii vestiantur. Ita tamen, mnia alia et singula qua; ad vestitum et " lectisternia eorundem, alia(iue eis necessaria, per- " tincnt, quamdiu f'uerint Scholares aut Choristaj in " nostro Collegio niemorato ; dummodo totalis exhi- '' bitio onmi\nn Scholarinm et Choristarum prnedic- " torum |ira>teret idtra eorum connuunas septimanales " et liberatas jiuerorum centmu marcas in uno anno " ali(|ualiter non transcendat." Do you not consider under tliesc two ]irovisious taken together that the founder laid an obligation on the College to provide out of its funds not only the gowns but the clothing for the year, within certain limits ? — {Mr. Diipuis.) Do you mean there was to be a certain coloured coat ? 311. No, I do not mean anything other or less than the entire clothing. ( To the Provost.) Were not the scholars to have the clothing? — {The Pro- vost.) I cannot deny that.* • The Provost suhscquoiitly askoil Ic.tvc to aitd the followiiic sf atonicnt in cornTlion of this answer: "It looks so, httt in no audit hook docs '■ an.v cliari-'L' of the kind a]i]jear, hoyond that for livtrii under the heatt " of'J\nniiist'i)ij)ttis,' and as tlio li'wrafa is e;illcdin statute 2ii vest ti fa, " nmXthel'aiuii's tliat (|no ' vcs/inniur,' it seems that liOeivfa, nsli/iis, " and vex/iir follow inu- observations :— " Boes it not, on the other hand, ap- " pear thai the elothint.- or vmliliis (riven in statute 1.5, quoted above, was " nitended by the statutes as sometlung quite distinct Irom the lihcmta " eiven in statute 29? In the lirst place, the hberata or gown is given to " all the meuibirs oftlie College, wliereas the clcilhini; is iirovidc'dciidv for " the choristers and scholars. Again, the gift <.f clotiiing is aeeompanied " by the gift of bedding, whereas the gilt of the gown or liberata is not. " I'urthcr, the provision for clothes extends expressly to " everything " • which appertains to clothing,' whereas the liberata is expressly '■ limited to so much clothes for the sehohirs as will eke out a gown anil " hood. In the fourth place, is not the allowance for clothes in the " statutes quoted expressly given over ami above the liberata (pneter " ct ultra eorum liberatas), and therefore necessarily dilfercnt and " additional ? " The Provost subjoins : — " The expression in statute 15 " is not ' pneter et ultra eovum liberatas,' but * propter et ultra eorum " 'communas septimanales et liberatas p«c/v>ram. 'clearly distinguishing " between the persons meant by 'eorum' (the scholars 'and choristers), " and those ir.eant by puerornm (perhaps the 13 pauiieres pueri). The " scholars are, I believe, nowhere in the statutes called pueri, nor are " the choristers, unless with the addition of ' Clioristie.' or, where that " expression is referred to. as ■ pueri prtedicti.' Ha110se a gontleman's house, that is to -say, of tlie usual size and with the oidinary eouveniences whieli attach to a gentleman's house ? — Yes ; some of them are better tlum others, tliey are not all the same. 342. Do you consider that in providing that description oV lodging for the Fellows, the College has overstepped the jirovision made hy the Founder for the lodging of the Fellows? — I suppose that after the Reformation when the Fellows became married men and liad families, they had more accommodation in tlie way of lodging atlbrded to them, and that, 1 presume, is the reason why they came to occupy separate houses. 343. Do you think that it vviiuld come to this, that in the altered state of the limes, the provision which is made for the Fellows now is not much more than it might be considered they might have u reasonable claim to under the statutes of the Founder ; or do you think it was a work of supererogation on the part of the College to provide them with such houses as they now occupy ? — It became necessary that they should have them, and they could not live there unless they had. 344. Do yon think that that improvement in the lodirins; of the Fellows has been a less benefit to them than the benefit which the scholars have received m the recent provisions which have been made for them ? — No. 34.5. Do you think it has been a greater benefit to them ? — It was not more than they required. 346. Do you think it was more of an improve- ment upon provisions made in the Founder's statutes, than that which has been made even up to the present lime for the scholars ? — I iiresumc it puts them both upon about the same footing. 347. Am I right in infeiring that whatever has been done for the scholars, and which lias given them a certain increase of aeconimodatiou which they had not before under the statutes, a similar advantage, not less in degree, has been conferred upon tlie Fellows ? — Yes. 348. Do yon think it would have been fair to permit things to remain in the same state as respects the boys, as they would have remained under the sta- tutes, and yet to have conferred upon the Fellows all the advantages which were given tliem in the shape of additional accommodation ? — The present Fellows took things as they found them ; it was not they who increased the accommodation. Thej' took things as they found them in regard to themselves, but thev increased the accommodation for the scholars. Whether the Fellows who originally increased the accommoda- tion for themselves increased the accommodation for the scholars also, I do not know. 349. I am not speaking of it as an act on the part of the present Fellows, but simply as one on the part of the College as a permanent Corporation. By the statutes there was equally a provision for the Fel- lows and for the scliolars ? — Yes. 350. Would it be fair under the circumstances which we have brought out, the increased provision as to lodging which has been made for the Fellows not being regarded in the nature of a set-off against any advantages which they have lost, to propose to the parents of the scholars that they should have certain improvements made in their lodgings at the College as a set-off against their statutable privilege of being provided with clothing ? — The allowance for clothing was never made to the parents ; nor do I mean to say that they ever had the offer. 351. Would it have been a fair offer on the part of the College to have put it to them in that way ? — I should think that on the part of the men who found them in the state they were, it would have been a fair offer to make. 352. {Lord Lyttelton.) I believe the original pro- visions of the statute required the instruction to the scholars to be gratuitous ? — They required that the magister informator should receive nothing from the scholars for teaching. 353. How is the teaching defined in the statutes ? — They were to instruct the scholars in grammar. (jV/\ Diiptiis.) And singing. Hfv. 354. In grammar and music ?— Yes. ^".0. Goo,lf,ml, 355. Would that be considered to mean the r.TON. Rev. T. BatchiUor, Esq. 5 JiUy 1862. ,. . , . . . . , , ^ G.J. Dupuis. ordinaiy grammatical instruction given in schools at jf^^ j wnd^r^ that time ? — (7'/ic I'rovost.) 1 suppose it would. 3o(J. The instruction which is now given to the scholars is not gratuitous ? — No ; they pay their tutors. 357. Hut do they pay the Head Master anything ? — No. 358. Does the Head Master consider himself bound, or is it his practice, to teach (hem more than what he is required to do by the statutes ? — No ; the Head Master does wot per se. 359. But does he provide for it in the system of the school ? — lie provides masters who instruct the boys in the school. 3C0. And does the teaching of those masters go beyond the provisions of the statutes with respect to what the boys were to be taughir? — No ; it does not go beyond it, certainly. 361. What I mean is, that the teaching which the scholars receive iu their ordinary school work goes bej'oiid what is jirovided for them in the statutes. I do not mean the teaching which they receive in respect to any payment, but the compulsoi'}' part of the sclioolwork ? — Far beyond, certainly. I misun- derstood the question. 362. Does the College look upon that as part of the "set-off" against non-compliance with the sta- tutes in other respects ? — I imagine so ; the instruc- tion which they receive in school. 363. That instruction being more than is required by the statutes to be given ? — It is carried further in the higher branches. 364. And though it is not wholly gratuitous, do the College consider, that in regard to a great part of it, it is of more value than what they pay ? — Yes. 365. In regard to the acconiiuodation, the boys have all single rooms ? — Every boy has a sioall par- titioned room to himself. 366. That, with respect to about 20 of them, has only been the case within the last two years ? — Less time than that. 367. In regard to the food, but apart from their dinners, do the College provide more meals to the scholars than they are bound to do Ijy the statutes ? — There is no definite provision as to the number of meals in the statutes. 368. Is it simply a provision that the scholai's shall be provided with commons ? — It is so much for commons. 369. Do you think that the sum which was allowed for that purpose enough to provide for them ? — I suppose they would find, taking a series of years, that the amount would iu reality diminish in conse- quence of the increased cost of provisions. 370. How many meals are now found for them ? — Dinner, breakfast, tea, and supper, and, in the summer, an extra allowance of bread and beer in the afternoon. (Mr. Dupuis.) What we call " bever." 371. {Lord Devon.) In addition to the four meals ? — Yes. 372. {Lord LylteltoH.) With regard to the change C)f habits in the present day, do you consider that the provision, in a school like Eton, for the boys to have separate rooms and other comforts to the extent to which they are now given, is beyond what may be fairly expected by the parents and the boys them- selves, in accordance with their ideas of propriety ? — ( The Provost.) The provision for separate rooms is much bettor than it is even in the lioarding houses ; for in some of the dames' houses you will often find brothers put together, and even in the case of some of the little ones, boys who are not brothers. 373. But in respect to other great schools, are you aware that in some of them a number of boys are put together in common dormitories? — I fancy they are at Westminster. B 4 16 PUBLIC SCHOOLS COMMISSION : — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. ETON. Rev. 374. Tliev are partilioiieil oft' at Westminster to some e.\tent ? — I liavo never been over that school. 375. Do von think that, to jiroviile separate ^'■^■^''"fJ""'- room^^ to the extent that lias been done, is going (; J jjuuuis actually lievoml what couhl he reqnireJ ? — Yes. ller.J.WMer. 376. {/.'oifl Derou.) Was there any provision r. Biitiheklm, YiY^Cic in former times at Eton for tter facilities fordoing them. 455. {Lord Clarendon to Mr. Batcheldor.) You perform m.any of the duties that were contemplated ns to be performed liy lie notary, and which, in point of fact, are assigned to the notary by the statutes ' —Yes. 456. The office of registrar as such, has not been contemplalcd by the statutes ? {Mr. Batcheldor.) No. (Mr. Dupuis.) Not under that name. 457. I see there is an item put down here, "Dr. " Goodford for mathematical instruction, 150/.," what is that ?—{Thc J'rovosi.) That is handed over immediately to the mathematical master. 458. That is the sum, I suppose, which is pro- vided by the College for the teaching of mathematics ? Yes ; for the mathematical instruction. 459. Then there is a sm.all item. "Dr. Goodford, " catcchist ?" — Th.at is for catechising the school, and delivering the lectures on four Sundays iu Lent. 460. Does the Head Master do that ? — Yes, when appointed. 461. {Mr. Vaughan.) AVith regard to the bursars, there is a payment of 46/. 6s. 8d. to the two bursars. Do you know the origin and foundation of that pay- ment ? {3Ir. Dtipicis.) No. ( The Provost.) I think there is a payment aUotted to them by the statutes. 462. {Mr. Vaughan.) Five marks a year a piece. It is 3/. Is. 3d. for azure under the head of " libe- " ratura." ( To Mr. Dupuis.) You do not know, I suppose, either when that sura of 46/. 6*. 8d. was fixed, or iu relation to what it was fixed ? — No. I know it has been paid for many years, but I do not know on what data it was fixed. 463. Has it increased for many years p.ast ? — It h.as not increased, I can answer, for 100 years. If I had the books before me I could tell you the exact time. I have occasionally looked back at the books from mere curiosity, and I can tell you that this is an ancient payment. I can not tell you in what year it began, but I believe it has neither in- creased nor diminished for a long period. 464. {Lord-Devon.) Probably you could find out by referring to the audit book the period at which the salaries were first paid ? — I dare say I could by referring back in the audit book. 465. {31r. Vaughan.) Is there under the statutes a payment allowed to the Viee-Provost both as Vice- Provost and Ostiar ? — They are not the same offices, that of the Ostiar is distinct from that of the Vice- Provost. 466. {Lord Devon.") I observe that under the title " distributiones ordinar," there is an item of 10/. paid quarterly to the almswomen. 1 do not see any entry with respect to the four feeble men, which ai-e men- tioned in the statutes ; what has become of them ?^ — {Mr. Dupuis.) It is supposed that they never existed. 467. Were those almswomen substituted for them, do you think ? — No, I think not. They were from the fii"st, and were to be 10 in number. 468. And were they so continued ? — To this day. 469. Who appoints to the vacancies ? — The Pro- vost. He appoints all the officers and servants of the College, and he appoints almswomen as pertaining to it. 470. Do these almswomen live in the town ? — Yes. 471. Are there houses for them ? — Yes ; and allow- ance for them in the absence of the scholars, for meat, bread, and beer once a day, together with medical attendance when necessary. When the scho- lars are at the College they receive all the refuse of the hall ; they take away everything that is left. 472. How many in number did you say they were ? — 10. 473. You have no recoi'd here of the " four poor " feeble men " ? — It is believed they never existed at all. 474. Neither is there .any mention at all here of the 13 poor youths ; what of them ? — It is believed they never existed either. It is the firm belief that F.dw.ard IV. so mutilated and injured the College, that the complete intentions of the Founder were in sever.al respects never carried out. I dare s.ay that the distributions to the Fellows went in the same way. 475. {I^ord Lyttelton.) You do not think these " distributiones ordinariai " are statutable ? — No, I should think not. PUBLIC SCHOOLS COMMISSION :— MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 19 ■ '476. That IS n hernling you ji've to them ? — I do not tliiiik the title "distribiitioncs orilluur." oceura in the statutes. 477. With i-espect to the " poor of Eton," of whitli I2s. 4d. is the gift of Dr. Bost j is that n legacy ? —Yes. 478. Some of these seem to be regular fixed payments, and some not ; for instance, here is W. Ilolderness, for looking to the clock, 1/. 6*-. 8d. Is that a lixed payment ? — {Mr. Batchcldor.) I think they are all fixed payments, and very ancient. 479. Is the same sum \Gs. 3d. always paid for "ink, quills, and steel-dust"? — (Mr. Diipiiis.) It is paid every year. 480. The pr.-epositors ; do they always get G*. for writing the book ? — Yc?. 481. With regard to the almswomen, they are not at all mentioned in the statutes ? — No ; there is no mention made of them whatever. ( T/ie Provost.) No. {Mr. Batcheldor.) They seem to have taken the place of the poor men. 482. They are supposed to have existed from the earliest times ? — {Mr. Dtipuis.) I believe so. 483. In fact, you think the}' are a simple substitu- tion ? — Yes. 484. I suppose these payments to the different ministers of various parishes are gratuities ? — Gratui- ties entirely. 485. Are they regular annual stipends ? — They are annual stipends. 486. I see the Vicar of Ellingham 5/. 6.«. 9d. ; is that a donation ? — Yes. 487. {A Commissioner.) Can you give us an ex- planation of the 3rd line fi-om the bottom of the page " Capon lost by the sale of houses." What does that mean ? — {3fr. Batcheldor.) TUat is easily explained ; they were rents reserved in the leases of houses which have since been redeemed by the sale of the land, and that is the way in which the losses occun'ed. 488. And will this appear in the accounts every year ? — Yes, always. 489. What did it go to ? — To domus. 490. What does a capon reckon as ; is it Is. ? — That depends upon circumstances ; the capons were paid to the Provost and Fellows. 491. For themselves ? — Yes. 492. It does not go to their private account ? — Ko. 493. (Lord Devon.) Here is "Paid to Provost " 20 dozen of candles at 7s. 6rf."? — {Mr. Dupuis.) The price of candles fluctuates ; of course it is not alw.iys 7s. 6d. {Mr. Batcheldor.) The bursars have six dozen. 494. {.Sir S. Northcole.) Is that a fixed sum that is given, or does it fluctuate according to the price of candles from year to ye.ir ? — The quantity is fixed, but the price varies from year to year. 495. {Mr. Vaughnn.) Is tiie College in the position of " rector ;" does it take the great tithes of those places where the same are paid to the vicar ? — {Mr. Dupuis.) You mean Gold Cliff ? {Mr. Batcheldor.) The College owns the tithes of Gold Clifl^, and the vicarage of Ellingham. Some of the estates were sold under the Land-Tax Redemption Act, but tlie College retains the advowson. {Mr. Dnpuis.) All these places are College pro- perty, and in many instances the great tithes go to the College; Brownstoneis a portion of Modbury, and Little Tew is in Oxfordshire. 496. {Lord Clarendon.) Now we come to the " Focalia,"' the coals and coke for the scholar's chambers, breakfast rooms, new additional buildings, Conducts' apartments, &c., was that charge always the same, that is to say, were they always wai'med at Just the same price ? {Mr. Dupuis.) The allowance now is much higher than it ever was before. ( The Provost.) There are separate fire-places in the separate rooms. 497. That has been one of the results of the greater accommodation given to the scholars ? — {Mr. Dupuis.) Yes. 498. You cannot tell about how much is the difference in the cost of w.arming the schools now as compiired with what it formerly was? — No; but I could if we had had the books here. We could tell you what it was 30 years ago, botbre the alterations took place, and could compare it with the present price ; we can get it directly if we look at the books, but I should say that the increase was very great. {Mr. Batcheldor.) I think that the increase is about 70/. {Mr. Dupuis.) The sum is mentioned at 87 tons to the scholars' chambers, breakfast rooms, new addi- tion.al Iniildings, and conducts apartments. 499. ( To Mr. Dupuis.) You can have a com- parative statement made ? — Yes ; so as to show what it was before and what it is now.* 500. Do you not consider that a very important item with respect to the improved comforts of the boys ? — Yes. 501. Under the head of "Focalia" do you pay for work done iu the College woods ? — Yes, that is cutting wood, which is used iu the College hall and b.ike-houso for lighting fires, and which comes from the College woods ; of course there is some expenso in cutting and carrying it. {Mr. Dupuis.) The College woods arc held in hand. 502. Are they handy with respect to distance ? — . They are situated within five miles. 503. I see the charge for carrying is rather high ? — Of course there is considerable expense in carry- ing wood five miles. {Mr. Batchcldor.) It is that wood chiefly which is used for baking, brewing, and so on, a very largo quantity. 504. {L^ord Devon.) With respect to this point I should like to ask you, whether the arrangement for the warming works satisfactorily for the College ? — Yes, very comfortably. 505. There are open fire-places iu the .npartmenta of the seniors, are there not ? — Yes. 50G. Are they all one kind of flue ? — {The Pro- vost.) They are not all the same. 507. The new apartments are warmed by hot water, I believe ? — I forget how many thei-e are, but I believe 10 or 12 fire-places. 508. How are the rest of the apartments warmed ? — By hot water. 509. Are the present arrangements for w.arming the various rooms in the College, such as keep up a warm and equable temperature during the winter ? — • Yes. 510. Probably the master of the College would be able to give us more details upon that point ? — I am afraid the present master would hardly be able to tell 30U much, he is only just come. 511. {L^ord T^i/ttelton.) There are about 50 rooms in the new building, are there not ? — {The Provost.) Eather less, 47 or 48. 512. Aud of those about 10 or 12 h.ave firc-pLaces ? — No there are not 10 or 12 of those having fire-places. The rooms with fire-places are mostly in the old part of the College. I think .about four in the new have' fire-places. 513. So that nearly all of them .are warmed with hot water ? — Yes. 514. Under which head is the cost of this hot water apparatus placed ? under that of 91/. 7s.? — {The Provost.) I think it is the next item, Small coal and coke for heating the new buildings, and cham- bers 28 Z. 14s. {Mr. Dupuis.) Yes, that is the item. 515. (Mr. Vajighan.) In the general account under the head of Focalia, it is stated as " Coals and ETOK Itev. C. O. Goodford. Rev. G. J. Dupiih. Bev. J. Wililer. T. Batcheldor, £■»]. 5 July 18G2. • See Mr. Batchcldor's letter, in/ra. C 2 20 PUBLIC SCHOOLS COMMISSION :— MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. I and int of in Jle,: J. IViWer. T. BatcheUlor, Esq. 5 July 1PC2. ETON. <« coke for the scholars' chambers, the kitchen, " other otRces, and for allowances." That in poi /?"■■ fact includes some allowances for the Provost's house ;. O.Oootl/ord. jj^jpg ij ^p( p Eleven tons of coal to the Provost ^ r^n"' kind, which ho receives. G.J.Dupu... Ki.^^,^^ ^„j„iree loads of charcoal ?-Yes, he re- ceives that in money. 517. " To coal and coke for the stables, and liar- " ness rooms ;" whom docs that go to ?— That is the stable and frurden. ^ r,^, tj * 518. Belonginfc to the Provost? — Ihe Provost and the whole College. There is a stove in it. 519. So that ont of this account for coals and coke s'omelhiti'r under 50/. has to be taken out as the cost of providing coal and coke for the Provost i — {Mr. liiifc/ieldo!:) Not so much as that. 520. First, 15/. 19^., then 7l.lOs.?—{3Ir. Diipuis.) That would be only 23/. 9^. 521. Then there is 6/. \os. for the stable, harness room, and garden ?— That is for the whole College, not for the Provost only. 522. I understood that the stables and harness room were for the Provost ? — (Mr. Dupiiis.) No ; they are for him and the Fellows. 523. Is the garden frequented ? — Yes. 524. Then it is not more than 30/. out of the account ?— Not so much as that for the Provost and Fellows together. 525. {3Ir. Thompson.) I make it 30/. 4*. 3c/. ? Is it also a regular tiling to make an allowance to the Fellows for'wood ?— Do you mean the bavins ? 526. Yes. — That is a very ancient payment. 527. Are these payments statutable? — {Mr. Diipuis.) That I could not say. 528. Are they customary ?-^Yes, they are of very old standing. 529. Is the quantity of wood that is allowed for, burnt ? — It used to be delivered to each memder in kind, and when that ceased compensation for the value of the wood was given. 530. {Mr. Vaughan.) Is the customary sum paid to the Provost for wood limited to this amount as a general allowance ? — " Paid Mr. Provost 40 hundred " 16/.," that is what you mean ? 531. Yes. Is that in addition to the coals and charcoal ? — Yes ; it is a very ancient payment. {Mr. Batcheldor.) That is the Provost's allowance. 532. Is it always limited ? — Yes. 533. And the same with respect to the bavins for the Fellows, 28/. ?— Yes. 534. And it is the same with respect to the sums allowed for billets ? — Yes. 535. The amount for the Provost and Fellows together amount to a considerable sum, 59/., nearly ? ~-{Mr. Dtipuis.) Yes. 536. {Lord Clarendon.) With respect to the " stabulum," is that an ancient payment, 66/. 0«. 8rf. ? —Yes. 537. I see there is an item here, " The cost of " keeping a horse," that is besides " the Provost for " two loads of hay," I do not understand that ? — {Mr. Dupuiis.) There is a great deal of work to be done in the way of carriage and carting on the pre- mises. Within the last three or four years we used to pay for its being done, and then we found that it was such a heavy item that we thought it would be sound economy upon our part to keep a horse our- selves, we having a stable to put it in, and we found it answer very well ; indeed we have paid for the cost of the horse, cart, and harness, out of what it has saved us. We began about three years ago, but we paid for the horse and cart the first two years. We had the choice either of keeping a horse and cart ourselves or of paying for the hiring of one to do the carriage of wood and other things, we chose to keep a liorse and cart ourselves, and we find we save mouev by it. ' {Mr. Batcheldor.) I think the cost of it was 70/. or 80/. The gardener takes charge of the horse, and it is always kept ready for any kind of work ; the College find it a great economy. 538. {Mr. Vanghan.) You know the original con- sidei-iition for which this allowance of a horse and fodder to the Provost was given by the statutes ?— {Mr. Dupuis.) Do you mean tlie stabulum ? 539. You know for what purpose this allowance for horses and fodder was made to the Provost ? — ( The Provost.) It was to enable the Provost to ride about and transact the business of the estates; origi- nally he was to keep 10 horses. 540. {3Ir. Thompson.) Is this the only remnant of the 10 ? — Yes ; one cart horse. 541. {Lord Clarendon.) The next item is " Feod. " rcard. et tax." Will you be good enough to explain what that means ?—{3Ir. Dupuis.) " Feoda '' means fees ; " regarda," rewards ; and " tax," payments. I believe the title exists in the accounts of most ancient colleges ; I know it does at King's College, Cambridge. 542. Can you tell me why the poor rates and highway rates for Mr. Carter's and Mr. Eoper's houses are paid by the College ? — Mr. Carter is Vice- Provost and Mr. Roper belongs to the College ; he is one of the Conducts. 543. Is that ^vhy the poor rates and the highway tax are paid for them ? — Yes. 544. I see also that a sum is paid for the insurance of several houses which comes in here, how is that ? — They are insured against fire. 545. Are they houses for which the College re- ceive rent? — {Mr. Batcheldor.) The College pays for the insurance of those houses to make sure that they are insured in case of accident. 546. {Lord Lyttelton.) Why do they pay for the insurance of these alone ? — They do not ; they pay for the insurance of a great many more houses besides these. You will see there " Insurance for Mr. Evans* " house." 547. All the insurances with reference to the College ought to be put together, ought they not ? — They ought to be. 548. {Lord Clarendon.) There is a mixture here which I do not quite understand, why they should be termed insurances for Eton College ? — Insurances for the new buildings, Weston's yard, and for houses ojiposite tlie College. 549. And then, lower down, there is " Insurance " for Mr. Samuel ]J vans' house ?" — It might be better arranged, certainly. 550. {Lord Lyttelton.) Are all the College houses insured ? {3fr. Wilder.) Yes. {3Ir. Batcheldor.) All rack rental houses, certainly. 551. All the houses are insured ? — All of them. 552. {Lord Clarendon.) 1 see that the College pays the income tax on the Provost's and Fellows' houses, gardens, and so on ? — Yes. 553. They pay not only the income tax, Ijut the house tax, I see, on Dr. Goodford's house and lodge, and the assessed taxes ? — That is the Head Master's house ? 554. {Lord Devon.) For what sum is Eton College insured ?— 23,200/. 555. What is included under the word Eton College ? — The whole buildings. 556. The school ? — Yes, the library, the hall, and the buildings ; they are all insured in separate items, but altogether, the total sum is 23,200/. 557. {I^ord Lyttelton.) Did you include the chapel ? — No, the chapel is not insured at all. 558. {3Ir. Thompson.) The offices would not like to take on themselves the risk of insuring the chapel ? — No. 559. [Lord Clarendon.) Why not? — No office would insure those stained windows. 560. {Lord Devon.) I suppose Mr. Cobbs' expen- diture at Newington was on College business ? — Yes. 561. I see there is a charge for general business 22/. 13*. 8c/., is that by the solicitor of the College ? PUBLIC SCHOOLS COMillSSION : — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. SI (it/r. BatchelJor.) Yes, it is tlie solicitor's charge for geuersil business. 562. {Lord Lyttelton.) That will <;o into Messrs. Tooke & Go's, charges, I suppose ■' — Yes. 563. {Mr. Thompson to Mr. Dupuis.) There is nu item hereof one year's interest of4,000/. post obit gift, by Mr. Wililer, income tax G/. 'is. Ad., deducted 153/. "l6i. 8rf., and then there is ditto on 8,000/. 240/. was that money which was advanced in order to meet the cost of the improvements ? — That 4,000/. was advanced t)y tlie great kindness and liberality of the gentleman named about the time of the building of the new Scholar's Buildings, which was being built when we were very mucli pressed for money. Notwithstanding all the exertions which we made, we were hard put to it, and l\Ir. Wilder came forward most liberally and presented the College with 5,000/. on condition that he should receive the interest on 4,000/. till his death, when the payment will cease. 564. And the 8,000/., is that an additional sum so advanced ; it says ditto, ditto ? — No, that is the 8,000/. borrowed from the accumulation of the Godolphin legacy ; it is not very well put here. If you turn to page 23, you will find " Interest on 8,000/. borrowed " by Domus, 240/." 565. Then that sum of 4,000/. so liberally advanced by Mr. Wilder, and the sum of 8,000/. borrowed by Domus must be deducted from the 28,000/. mentioned in the first page as the cost of the repairs? — I rather think they are in addition to that 28,000/. 566. {Sir S. Northrote.) All that will appear, Jlr. Batcheldor, in the statement which you have promised to furnish us with ? — {Mr. Batcheldor.) Yes ; Mr. Wilder's advance will be included. 567. {Lord Clarendon.) I suppose this sum for repairs will include the whole of the College build- ings and repairs ? — {Mr. Dupuis.) Yes ; the whole repairs of the buildings, including everything con- nected with the chapel and College. 568. Is that aljout the annual sum ? Is it pretty much the same one year as another ? — I should say that this is rather above the usual average. {Mr. Batcheldor.) Yes ; it is a little over the average. {Mr. Dupuis.) The reparationes are always very heavy. 569. {Mr. Vaughan.) Does it include the whole of the fabric ? — Yes ; the fabric of the College, tlio chapel, and I should say, also St. John's church, which we are bound to repair. 570. And all the houses of the masters, and so on connected with the College ? — Only the fabric of the College itself, and the College buildings. 571. Not the boarding houses? — No; not the boarding houses. 572. Does it include the houses of the Provost and Fellows ? — Yes. 573. {Lord Clarendon.) I do not think that the repairs are particularly heavy, looking at the list for the last 20 years. I see that in 1841 they were 1,216/., they have also been 1,600/., 1,800/., and 2,042/. ?—(J/r. Batcheldor.) Those 20 years have been 20 years of regular alterations and repairs. 574. {Lord Devon.) Do any of these parties contract to keep the premises in repair ? — {Mr. Dupuis.) No ; the bills come in annually, and are audited under the several heads, all the items being examined. 575. Do you think it would be advisable that any portion of this woi-k should be made the subject of animal contract ? — No ; it fluctuates so much. 576. {Mr. Vaughan.) Does it include the painting of the insides of the houses ? — Yes. 577. {Lord Clarendon.) Now we will take the necessary expenses. " The chapel windows." In what manner can the chapel windows be considered necessary expenses ? — The sum charged there is for the restoration of the stonework when the glass was put in. You will see " Chapel windows, ante " chapel, &c., 352/." ETON. liev. J. Wilder. T, Balclulilor, 5 July 1802. 578. {Lord T^i/ttclton.) The painted glass is, of course, additional ; is that for the ironwork as well ? —Yes. Hev. 579. ( Sir S. Korthcote.) The cost of that is about C. O. Goodfard. 80/., is it not ? — I think you will find it is a good ^s"- deal more than that if you turn to page 20. This is J?' "^ .■^.?/'!'!'' the item, " Filiner and Mason, iron rails in ante " chapel, 120/." {Mr. IJ'ilder.) When the windows were filled with painted glass, it was found necessary to repair the stonework before the glass could be put in. {Mr. Dupuis.) Yes; the mullions were much decayed. 580. {Lord Clarendon.) " Subscriptions to cha- " rities." What charities are those ? — Those are charitii's which in some way or other are connected with the College jiroperty. 581. I see here payment to almswomen 11/. 15.?. 6d. I thought the item for almswomen appeared under a former head ? {Mr. Batcheldor.) That is for medical attendance, I think. {Mr. Dupuis.) No ; the medical attendance is 10/. lOs. 582. {Lord Clarendon.) In page 3 it is put down at 11/. I5s. 6d. I think it appeared in another placo as 10/. 10*-. ? — {Mr. Batcheldor.) It is for cleaning and coals. Once a year they have 4s. 6d. for washing certain ])arts of the College. 583. And they have an allowance of coals 11/. \ls. a year ? — 1' es. 584. So that this 11/. los. 6d. is made up by tho addition of the 4s. 6rf. to 10/. 10s. and 1/. Is., and it is charged in one item ? — Yes. 585. I see here that there is a charge for some wine, port, sherry, and claret. I supi)ose that is for the election ? {Mr. Dupuis.) Yes ; we should be most happy to give your Lordships a bottle of it when you como down and see us again. {Mr. Batcheldor.) It Is the wine used for public occasions. 586. {Lord Devon.) There is an item, '>Bransomo " for teaching choristers, 20/." Who is Bransome ? — He is a person residing at Windsor, and is connected with the choir of Eton. "Wv are bound to educate the choristers, and part of that duty devolves on him. 587. Is he the dejjuty magister choristarum ? — No ; he is the schoolmaster of the school. 588. Are you bound to teach the choristers ? — Yes ; by statute. 589. And the statutes are carried out iia that respect ? — Yes ; he teaches them. {Mr. Batcheldor.) The choristers also sing in St. George's chapel, Windsor, consequently the cost of their teaching falls partly upon Eton College, and partly on the authorities of St. George's. Bransome is the master of the school. 590. Does a portion of the expense of teaching the choristers fall upon the W^indsor chapter ? — Yes. 591. Bransome is paid by both parties ? — Yes ; and this sum charged here is our proportion. 592. What is the charge here, " Charity children " attending the chapel, 5/. 5s." for ? — {Mr. Wilder.) That requires a little explanation. The regular choristers attend both at St. George's chapel and Eton College chapel ; but St. George's chapei seems to have a greater claim upon their services than wo have, consequently, on Sunday mornings, whei; thero is full service at St. George's chapel, the whole of tho choir attend and sing there, and we are left without any music at all. The result has been, that we have taken a dozen of the charity children, and we teach them to sing a simple psalm. 593. For which they are paid this sum ? — Yes, as a gratuity at the end of the year. 594. Do you consider this is a fair provision for the decent perfoVmance of Divine service ? — Yes. > 595. {Lord Lyttelton.) Do they chant? — No; they sing a simple psalm. 3 22 PUBLIC SCHOOLS COMMISSION :— MINUTES OF EVIDEXCE. ETOX. liei: C.O.Good/oxl. liev. G. J. Dupuis. Jter. J. WiMer. T. Batcheldor, Esq. r>.IiilvI862. 59G. IIow Ions have you and St. George's chapel hael !i joint choir ? — For a trreat number of years. (Mr. Batcheldor.) I think it is for at least three centuries. {Mr. DiipiiLi.) I apprehend it is ever since the termination of tlie civil war. Tlie civil war broke up almost all the cathedral choral establishments, and at tlic time of the Restoration, there was great difficiilty ill netting persons possessed of the requisite musical skill. Without stating it positively as a fact, I have always believed, in my own mind, that the union of Ihe choir of St. George's Cliapel, Windsor, and Eton College, dates from the Restoration. 597. {Lord Devon.) But is not this a state of things under which you are, during a certain time in which you arc engaged in the performance of Divine worship, deprived of the presence of your own choristers ? — Yes. 598. That is hardly consistent, is it, either with the spirit or the letter of the statutes ? — Certainly not. 599. {To Mr. H'i/der.) Do you not think it very undesirable that there should be a choir divided between two jdaces of worship ? — Very undesirable. 600. And that it would be much better if you had a separate choir attached to yourselves ? — Certainly. 601. And that such a state of things would be more in accordance with the statutes, and with the intention of the Founder ? — Quite so. 602. At present, the consequence of the double arrangement is, that you have to pay 51. 5s. annually to the charity children ? — With reference to the ex- pense of the choir, I may say, that that expense has been increased, and it was thought better on both sides to divide the expenses. 603. Do you find any inconvenience with respect to other services from the duties of the choir being thus divided ? — We so arrange it as to hold the services at different times ; but I think it is a very bad thing for the choristers themselves, who arc obliged to go immediately from one place to the other to go through the same service. 604. Do you not think that such a system naturally leads to the choristers hurrying through the service ? — I do not think it does now, because the services are 80 arranged, that there is abundance of time to go from one to the other ; and so far from their being hurried over I think they are both performed with great decency and propriety. 605. {l\Ir. Thniiipson.) Do you have a choral service every day ? — No ; on Sundays only and on Saints' days, and the eves of Saints' days, in the evening. They require the choir every Sunday morning at St. George's, and inasmuch as it takes place at the same hour as our service, no arrangement can be made ; but for the afternoon we have made ar^ arrangement. At our chapel we have service at 3 o'clock, and at St. George's it is at half-past 4. 606. You do not think it would seriously interfere with the education of the boys, if you could have a choral service every day ? — No ; I "think they would appreciate the service much more if it were choral. 607. Is the education of the chorister boys good ? — They are very well educated. It devolves on the master in Windsor to see tliat they are well taught. {Mr. Batcheldor.) They are very well cared for. {3Ir. Dupuis.) They are fed by the College still. They have an allowance of meat every day in the week, with bread and beer. 608. {Lord Devon.) Do you know how much money the choristers get on "leaving ? — When they leave they are apprenticed. They have a leaving fee of 15^ each. '^ 609. That explains the item, " Chorister on " leaving the choir, \5l." That is an apprenticeship foe ? — Yes. 610. {Mr. Thompson.) Do you think it desirable that the statutes, with respect to the choristers, should be carried out as nearly as possible ?— (il/r. JVilder.) I think as nearly as possible. 611. It is provided that they should sleep in the same apartments as the other boys. Could that he- carried out ? — No. They are of course, a class oi- boys quite different to the rest, and they do at pre- sent derive the advantage of a higher education than boys of their class otherwise would do. 612. Are they not to be taught with the oppidana and collegers ? — I think that the statutes hardly go so far as that. They are to have an inferior education ; but if any boy of promise is discovered amongst them, he may compete for the College distinctions. I do not think generally tliat the education of that class of bo3's was ever intended to be the same as that of the collegers or oppidans. 613. And you do not think it desirable that it should be ? — No ; I do not. 614. {Sir S. Northcote.) What kind of education do you think they ought to receive, — a classical edu- cation ? — I think they should be taught Latin, and the sort of education suited to that class of youths. Of course the higher the education which they receive, the higher would be the class of boys competing for the position of chorister. 615. {Mr. Thompson.) You do not think that gentlemen's sons would compete for the position ?-^ I think it possible they might do so. 616. Clerg3'mon's sons ? — Tes ; if they received a high classical education free of expense. 617. {Lord Lyttellon.) Is there anything in the statutes whicdi gives them a preference for election to college, and if so, are you aware of that preference ever having been exercised ? — Not for a great many years, certainly. 618. Have you ever known chorister boys to be in a position to stand for college ? — Never. They are boys of the common class, and are taught reading, writing, and music. 619. Cceteris paribus, I suppose they would have a preference ? — {Mr. Dupuis.) If any boy showed extraordinary merits, he would have a prefer- ence. 620. But, calcris paribus, would they have a pre- ference over others for election to college ? — {Mr, JVilder.) The arrangement which is made at present is that the conducts or chaplains are bound to teach the chorister boys Latin, &c., if required. 621. {Mr. Thompson.) That is the arrangement, I presume, when they are appointed? — {The Pro- vost.) That condition is made, and not only that, but if any chorister at present shows himself a very apt scholar, it would devolve upon the master to bring him before the College authorities, with a view to his being admitted to the College. 622. Has that ever happened ? — It has never oc- curred, so far as I am aware. {3Ir. JVilder.) In point of fact, the education of these boys is completely taken out of our hands by the Windsor chapter. 623. I presume at present it is a purely commercial education which they get ? — Yes ; with the addition of music. 624. (Lord Li/tlelton.) Is not Mr. Barnby one of the singers ? — Yes. 625. (Sir S. Northcote.) There is an item here, " Mr. Barnby teaching the scholars." What is that ? — It was considered desirable that all the scholars should learn music, to a certain degree, in order to take part in the service at the chapel, to sing psalms, and so forth, and within the last few years, the services of the singing men have been obtained, in order to teach any of the scholars who manifest a taste for music, and are able to sing. ( The Provost.) They chant the grace, and sing a Latin hymn on Sunday morning. 626. (Sir S. Northcote.) I see an item here, " Cambridge examination papers, 51. I6s." What have you to do with the Cambridge examination papers? (3Ir. Di'puis.) The examination papers are printed at Cambridge. (Mr. JJ'ilder.) We have nothing whatever to do with them. These Cambridge examination papers are prepared by the pozers, and printed at Cambridge, ?OBLIC SCHOOI^ COMMISSION: — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE, 23 &t the Uuiversity printing press, and they send in the bill to the Imrsar at Eton, and he pays it. 627. {Mr. Thompson.) And as ii.sual, it seems rather a high cliarge ? — {Mr. Dupttis.) Yes. The printing is very expensive. 628. {Sir S. Xorthcotc.) What is the extent of the tuition whicli Mr. IJarubj' gives to tlie boys ? — • (Mr. fVilder.) He teaches them the musical scales and so on. 629. {Lord Li/tteho)i.) What pi'oportion of the school learn ? — [Mr. Wilder.) I should say about 25 or 30. Any boy who appears to have any ear for music is taken, but where tliere is an apparent deti- ciency that is not the case. 630. {Mr. Vaughan.) I suppose it was in the contemplation of the Founder that all boys on the foundation should be skilled in music ? — {Mr. Du- puis.) The words in the statute arc "piano cautu '■ et donato competcnter iustructi." 631. {Lord Lijttclton.) I see there is an item here, " Grant to the blisses Gray, by vote of Col- lege." Are they the daughters of the old clerk ? — Yes. They were left in very abject circumstances. 632. {Lord Clarendon.) Is the sum charged for the camera scholarium about the average annual charge ; it is very large, considering what all the others are ? — Yes. 633. {Lord Lytlelton.) The bill for sundries, Mr. Griffin's bill, is 173/. 15*. \d. ?— Yes. 634. {Mr. Vaughan.) Who is Mr. Griffin ?— The linen-draper in Windsor. {Mr. Batcheldor.) He supplies the table-cloths, and sheets, and things of that kind. {Mr. Diipuis.) A great part of that is supplied at the expense of the College. 635. {Mr. Vaughan.) Surely the bill for seeds, shrubs, &c., ought not to go into the camera scho- larium ? — The items .are not well arranged. Mr. Tur- ner is the nurseryman at Slough. {Mr. fVilder.) There ought to be a line drawn under the first item. 636. {Lord Clarendon.') I wish to call your atten- tion to the first item ; " To the assistant master for " additional payments made by him for servants' ' wages, butter, milk, expenses in sickness, grocers', " and other bills," the additional p.iyments made for these things amounting to 276/. ISs. 4rf. for tlic year ; is that merely for the scholars? — Merely for the scholars. 637. Then I perceive that 270/. a year is paid for washing ? — I should think the scholars cost 1,000/. a year, independent of their diet. 638. Independent of their diet ? — Yes. {Mr. Thompson.) Is not the five guineas a year each which the scholars pay to the assistant master to include the washing ? 639. {Lord Clarendon.) But the washing of the scholars' clothes is paid for separately? — {Mr. Wilder.) It is 270/. in this item, but it will not be so in future. 640. It has been commuted to tea, has it not ? — Yes. 641. This 270/. is simply for washing the linen provided by the College ? — Butter and milk, expenses in sickness, grocers' and other bills, that is all beyond the sum paid for by the five guineas. 642. {Mr. Thompson.) Before it did not include the breakfasts, but now it includes both breakfast and tea, does it not ? — Yes. 643. The charge to the College for the scholars' washing would be lower now ? — Yes ; that we found to be a difficulty ; the boys do not like to be restricted in their washing ; it was found to be within a few pounds of the same amount as if the boys had them- selves purchased the things from the shops ; it was therefore thought better that the College should pur- chase the provisions for breakfast and tea and to bring it under the head of expenditure, in lieu of making them a certain weekly allowance for washing. 644. {Lord Clarendon.) What is the meaning of the remanentia here, 84/. 2s. 6d. ? — {3Ir. Batcheldor.) It is the remains of the flour, coals, and bread. It is the flour which the baker has uot used, the coals which the brewer has uot used, but which have been paid for. 645. {Lord Lyttclton.) What is done with them ? — Tliey go on to the next year's account. 646. It is stock in hand ? — Yes. 647. Does it appear on both sides of the account ? — Yes. 648. It is the remainder of the things which have been purchased within the year, but not consumed? — Yes. 649. {Lord Clarendon.) With respect to the in- come tax, that is not for the whole of the property, is it ? — That is the income tax on the reserved rents ; it is allowed by the income-tax officer. The College gets it back on account of its being an eleemosynary foundation. 650. {Lord Lyttclton.) Does the whole of the income tax come back ? {Mr. Dupuis.) The returns are sent into Somerset- house, and then a claim is made and the deduction is allowed. {Mr. Batcheldor.) All the items are not allowed ; some of them are. 651. (^(> S. Northcote.) What is done with re- spect to the income tax on the fines ? — {Mr. Dupuis.) That is paid by the Provost and Fellows. 652. {Lord Devon.) Do these various home rents arise from the houses and other buildings in and near Eton belonging to the College, and which are let out? —{Mr. Batcheldor.) Yes. 653. (.V;-. Thompson.) " The Rev. J. Ilawtrej-, 15s. 7if/." These small items of income tax mcu- tioned here are not on the houses of the masters ? {Mr. Dupuis.) No. {The Provost.) You will get the income tax on tho liouses lower down. 654. {Lord Clarendon.) In page 3 you say, " Tho " expenses of the year 1860 will not fairly represent " the ordinary expenditure of the College during the " last 20 years owing to the works alluded to which " have been executed in succession during this " period." Should you say that the ordinary expen- diture of the College would be less in its normal state ? — It would. 655. You also say that " Many of the improvo- " ments are attended with an annual expense to the " College," such as the chapel, the cemetery, and so on, I supi>osc. In what way would you say they are attended with an annual expense to the College ? {Mr. Batcheldor.) The repairs are an annual exi>ense. {Mr. Dupuis.) The wear and tear, and all the necessary repairs. {Mr. Batcheldor.) All these improvements bring additional expense annually to the College. 656. You say you contemplate still further im- provements. What, in a general way, are the im- provements which you contemplate ? — {Mr. Dupuis.) It has been recommended to increase the number of scholars if ever the revenues of the College should allow it, which is unlikely, and of course if so there would be a further expense. 657. Do you really contemplate any addition to the Scholars ? — I cannot say that we actually contem- plate any addition to them, but it was proposed some years ago that in case the College could afford it, means should be provided for supporting more scho- lars. It has been proposed to do so, but no period has ever been mentioned at which it should be done. 658. Do you think it desirable for the College that the number of boys should be increased, or that it would be desirable generally that there should be more scholarships at Eton ? — It has been talked of. 659. {Lord Lyttclton.) Has it been long talked of? — For four or five j'eai's. I think it was stated to the Cambridge Commissioners. 660. When you si)eak of further improvements, which you say are being carried out, do yon refer to the new buildings which we saw the other day ia C 4 ETON. liev. C. O. Gcotl/ord. Ilev. (7. J. Dupuis, Hev. J. Wii'le,. T.DaUhMor, Ksq. 5JulvISr,2 24. PUBLIC SCHOOLS COMMISSION: — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. ETON. Her. C. O. GooJfurd. Rev. G. J. Dupuis. Iter. J. WiUcr. T.BntcheUlor, £^ r. .IiiiyI8C-2. course of construction?— (3/r. Wilder.) Yes, tliat was a pnrt of the improveraeiits. (iGl. Are the still further improvements which you mention as contemplated, something which has not vet been entered upon ?— The answers were written .it the time when these schools were first bc;:un, and of course the improvements then in con- templation would involve these as well as others. 662. What is the expense of the new buildings ? PeilKips that miglit be put in along with the rest of the intbrmatiou that is to be furnished to us. It is not mentioned in the .answers that have been fur- nished to us by the College. Do you know what would be the proportion that is to be furnished by the College ?—(.!//•. Dirpids.) We can hardly tell until the buildings are finished. C63. Is not the contract entered into ? — (il/r. Ulldcr.) It will be from 16,000/. to 20,000/. al- together. 664. Do not you know how much of that the College is to contribute ?— The contract amounts to upw.a'rds of 16,000/. for the schools and the new house that will be necessary. 665. Do not you know how much of that has been contributed by subscription ? — {The Provost.) I think between 7,000/. and 8,000/. 666. About one half ? — Yes, about that. 667. And at jircsent the College purposes to defray the remainder of the cost ?— The College is responsililc for the remainder. 668. {Sir S. Northcote.) I think these returns were made, in fact they are dated the 1st of February 1862, and you then stated that you contemplated still further improvements. Have you commenced .any improvements since February ? — {Mr. Dupuis.) Not that I am aware of. 669. Have not these new buildings been com- menced since that time ? — They were commenced before that. 670. Then when you say you contemplated still further improvements, are there any particular im- provements that you had in your mind, and have now in your mind, that you really do contemplate ? — {Mr. Batcheldor.) The improvements which were then contemplated were improvements for which the plans were then made out, Ijut the works were not then begun. • 671. Among other things the houses which were referred to ? — -I should say so. 672. I observe, under answer 8, you say, that by the better management of the College funds the Col- lege property has been improved. It has to some extent been improved. But has not that been by raising the rents ? Il.avenot the rents of the College property been r.aised in several cases ? — Yes. Some of the reser\ed rents of the College have been raised, but that will not be a great item in the increase of rental. The College property has within the last 20 years been increased in value from 6,000/. to 10,000/. But what we mentioned yesterday as one of the great sources of the improvement was the exchange of property at Haverstock Hill for Crown property in Eton. 673. With regard to the rental of the houses, I should like to ask a question as to the principle which you adopt in letting the houses. What is the prin- cijile on which you select the tenants for your houses in Eton College ? — Application is made, I think, by persons who wish to succeed to the houses. 674. Do you give the preference to persons who are to be engaged in the working of the school, the assistant masters and others ; or do you let the houses to the highest liidder?— We never 'let the houses to persons unconnected with the place, either as masters or dames. {Mr. Wilder.) They have never been put up to competition. 67o. There are some houses let to private persons whn wish to come and live near their children, are there not ?— Not belonging to the College. 676. Was not there one let to Lady Young?— That w.os under-let. 677. {Lord Lyttelton.) Every house within the precincts of the College is now occupied by some person connected with it ? — Yes ; either by dames or masters. 678. {Sir S. Northcote.) With reference to the answer you gave me about under-letting, do you allow under-letting, or do you restrain those to whom yon let houses from under-letting without the consent of the College ? — We never permit them to under- let without the consent of the College. {Mr. Wilder.) In this case Mr. Williams resigned his house. He also rented another house. I think Lady Young occupied a portion of one of his houses, he having taken a house in Upton Park. 679. I did not wish particularly to call attention to the case of Lady Young, but I want to know whether you consider that the houses ought to be let only to persons connected with the working of the school, and that these persons should, as a rule, be prohil)ited from under-letting them to anyone else ? — I think that is the case. 680. With regard to these persons who are con- nected with the working of the school, and who require this accommodation, how do you choose them ? Supposing there are several applications, to which of these persons would the house be let ? Do you give the preference to masters over dames, or to classical masters over mathematical masters ? — The rule has been that the classical masters should have tlie i>reference, 681. With regard to dames, are there not a certain number ot houses allotted to dames who take no part in the working of the school ? ( The Provost.) I do not think that all their houses belong to the College, 682. {Sir S, Northcote,) Have you any control over the dames' houses ? ( The Provost.) None whatever. Some of the masters' houses .also do not belong to the College. I think three or four of them,-^Mr. W^illi.am Carter's house, Mr. Yonge's, Mr. Balston's, and Mr. Wolley's. Those four houses do not belong to the College. {3lr. Wilder.) And Mr. Vaughan's, and Mr. John Hawtrey's. 683. Is there anything to prevent them from being taken by an entire stranger for his own purposes ?-^. No. 684. Are there a certain number of dames' houses which belong to the College ? — Yes. {Mr. Dupuis.) Yes, the greater part, 685. Can you say how many ? — Madame de Rosen, Mrs. Stevens, Mrs. Horsford, Miss Middleton, Mrs, Voysey, Evans, Vidal, Mrs. Drury. 686. {Lord Lyttelton.) Do all those belong to the College ? — Yes, and Miss Edgar's. 687. {Sir S. Northcote.) Suppose that one of these dames' houses were to become vacant ; should you consider that a person coming as a dame, ought to have a prior claim to it, or a mathematical master, supposing a mathematical master wanted a house ? — {Mr. Wilder.) The next we had to give, we should give ta a mathematical master if he wanted a house. 688. Do I understand you to say, that if the house of a classical master belonging to the College became vacant, you would consider it the rule that another classical master should have that house ? — Yes. 689. You would never give it to a mathematical master ? — No. Mr. Marriott asked to be allowed to stay in a master's house as a dame, and permission was given to him ; but in the event of his vacating the house, it would become a master's house again. 690. You would never think of turning a house that had once been a master's house into a dame's house ? — No. 691. Would you act conversely, and turn a house that had once been a dame's house into a master's ? — No, I would not. {Mr, Dupuis.) That has been done. {Mr, Wilder.) Yes, I believe it has been done. PUBLIC SCUOOLS COMMISSION : — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 25 fe92. Is there occasionally a competition between a classical master ami a malhematical master for a liouse? {The Provost.) I do uot think there is a competition. 693. Supposing that a house wvre to fall vacant, would it at once be eleiir from the class to which tliat house belonged that it must either bo open to a mathe- matical mastei" or not, so that there would be no com- petition between the mathematical master and the classical master? — I should think it would. I knoiT of no competition having taken place. {Mr. fVilder.) My impression is, that when Mr. Hale got his house, there was a competition. 694. What wausea ttpon. leases you could not treat with immediaitely, at any rate until their leases had expired. 715. {Lord Lyttelton.) I understand that the Col- lege have fornied an opinion, upon grounds of expe- diency, against the system of dames' houses? — {Mr. Wilder.) No. 716. They do not think it desirable that all houses should be occupied by masters ? — {Mr. Batcheldor.) The expenses of the school would be greatly increased if there were none but master's houses. The charges in a master's house are higher than those in a dame's hOkLSC. 717. With regard to those houses which belong to other persons within the precincts of the College, it is easily conceivable that there might be a great inconvenience in other persons taking them ; but would not such houses be worth much more for the purposes of the school, than for any other purpose ? — {Mr. H'itder.) I imagine so. 718. The power which the College and school authoa'ities have over those houses, is it the same over those houses wliich do not belong to them, as over those which do ? — {Mr. Batcheldor.) I do not quite understand your question. 719. Do the College consider that for school pur- poses they have as effectual a control over those houses which do uot belong to them as over those which do ? — {Mr. Wilder.) Yes ; they have never made any opposition to the College control. 720. 'They have been kept equally well in repair ? —Yes. 721. {Lord Clarendon.) Question 9, says, "Please " to furnish a statement of the ecclesiastical benefices " in the gift of, or otherwise attached to the fouuda- " tion, with the actual value of each, specifying " which of them are held by persons who are or have " been Fellows of the foundation, or connected with " the school as masters or assistant masters, or other- " wise. Is there any rule, usage, on practice regu- " latiug the exercise of the ecclesiastical patronage " belonging or attached to the fbundation ?" — {The Provost.) A list of all those has been given. 722. By whom are the livings held where the names are not given ? Are they held" by persons wholly unconnected with the College ? — (^Mr .Dupuis.) I should say that they are. 723. They are livings, I beHeve, that have been offered to the Provost. When a living becomes vacant it is offered to the Provost and Fellows in rotation. If not accepted either by the Provost or the Fellows, it falls into the gift of the Provost. Is that so ? — {Mr. Dupuis.) Yes; if it is his turn to give away. 724. I thought if neither the Provost nor the Fellows would accept the living, it then fell to the patronage of the Provost ? — No; he would have the patronage of it in his turn, or it would fall to the Fellow whose turn it was to present. We take it iu turns. 725. To present? — Yes ; and if not accepted by the Provost or any one Fellow for his own personal living, the person whose turn it is to present would have the patronage. 726. The person whose turn it is to present ? — Yes. 727. Would he lose his turn if he did not present ? —No, his name would remain at the head of the list. 728. Or if he did ? — If he did present, he would go to the bottom of the list, and the next roan would, come up to the top. D ETON. liev. C.O. Goodfvrd. O. J. Dupuis, Jiev. J. WiUer. T. Batcheldor, £sq. 5 July 1862. 26 PUBLIC SCHOOLS COMMISSION : —MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. ETON. Utr. C.O.GooJfurd. l{,v. G. J. Vitpuis. Jtil: J. Wilder . T. liiilrheldi-r, Esq. 5.1uly 1862. 729. I sec there arc some tolerably good livings here, to which there is no name of an imlividual attache.!, connected with the CoUege^ have those livings been (jresonted to persons who have nothing to do^with the College ?— Yes ; to personal friends. 730. Tlie personal friends of the individual Fellow who has the presentation i" — Yes; I should say that tlic Conducts «f the College have a right to one of those livings when they have served eight years ; they accept their position nnder the condition tiiat, after they have beou there eight years, and have conducted themselves to the satisfaction of the Provost and the College, they should liiive the option of some of those livings when they fall vacant. 731. What is aCJonduct? — A chaplain. 732. A chaplain appointed by whom? — Appointed Ijy the Provost. It comes from conductitius, a Latin term signifying a hired man ; it is the same as chap- lain, in common acceptation. 733. {Lord Devon.) I apprehend that the claim that the Conducts have to the livings is limited by one or two qualifications, is it not ? — {Mr, Dupuis.) Yes. 734. I apprehend that, first of all, the living •which is vacant must be one that neither the Provost nor the Fellows choose to have for themselves? — Yes. 733. Secondly, it must not be among the 12 best benefices ? — I do not know about its being among the 12 best, but there are a certain number they have no claim to. 736. So that the claim of the Conducts is only to a certain number of livings, those livings not being among the best ? — {Mr. Wilder.) Several of them are livings of very fair emoluments. 737. {Mr. Thompson.) It states in this list tliat Mr. Marshall, who was formerly a Conduct of Eton College, holds a living worth 539/. ? — Yes. 738. {Lord Devon.) Under what ordinance or regulation does that state of things exist ; I mean where the claim of the Conduct is limited in such s, way ? {Mr. Dupuis.') I can only say that.it is so. {Mr. Wilder.) I apprehend that it is more custom than anytliing else. 739. Has there not been any order upon the subject? — No.. 740. {Mr. Thompson.) Are the livings at the ex- clusive disposal of the Provost and Fellows ? — {3Ir. Wilder.) Yes. 741. {Lord Devon.) Has it ever been brought under the notice of the College, that in the way of giving a superannuation to a master, the claim to a living might be allowed to him ? — {Mr. Dupuis.) I do not think that has ever been discussed, though I dare say it has passed through men's minds.; it has certainly passed through my o^vn. 742. As far as I can properly ask the question, what would be your view of such a change ; do you think it would be an additional inducement for men of first class qualifications to undertake the oflice of master if they found that, after having served a certain time, they would have a claim to a tolerably good living ?— 1 hardly think it would ; but those who hold livings know that they are so poor a main- tenance, that I do not think that would be a very great inducement. 743. Still there is the certainty ? — Yes ; there is the certainty, no daubt. 744. At present, unless a man is either a conduct or a Fellow, or the personal friend of a Fellow, his chance of a College living does not arise ? — No. 745. {Sir S. Northcote.) The Provost holds a living, I suppose?— (77(6 Provost.) Yes; but not a College living. 74(S. Are tlio College livings open to you ? Yes^ I had the choice of three a short time a^o. 747. {Mr. Thompson.) Is there not some clause of this sort in the statutes, " beneficia ecclesiastica " sine cura animarum " ? — The " sine cura " has beAi omitted in the reformationes. 748. {Lord Lyttelton.) The Fellows were distinctly restrained from holding livings in the statutes, were they not ? They got diat set aside by dispensation, did they not ? — ( The Provost.) Yes ; in the time of Queen Elizabeth. 749. {3Ir. Vaughan.) What do you conceive to have been the right of the College under the statutes to accept the dispensation upon a point of that sort ? I cannot ofler an opinion. The Visitor decided it. 750. That would certainly furnish a strong pre- sumption that there was some good reason for it ? — The reason Queen Elizabeth gave for the dispensa- tion was, that we might have better means of exer- cising hospitality. {Mr. Dupuis.) And of teaching the people "their duty to God and to us." 751. Are you aware that there is a clause in the statutes that in the strongest language forbids any member of the College from accepting any dispensa- tion from any person whatever in reference to any obligations imposed upon him by the statutes ? — I am perfectly aware of it. 752. Do you know how that clause was got over, or what notice was taken of it ? — I take it, that by the reformationes the Bishop of Lincoln is to be the judge, whether any person has been guilty of per- jury or not. You wiU find that clause in p. 623. It has always been viewed in that light. 753. I understand from that clause that it is only the penalty of perjury that is to be affe.eted at least ; that the fact of the perjury is not aJtered. That is a clause which simply provides a different penalty for the perjury from that which was originally imposed ? {Mr. Tliompson.) The statute says, " Non reatum " aut pojnam perjurii iucurrant quoquo modo, sed " poena perjurii ubieumque ex dictis statutis incur- " renda, si de perjurio alicujus socii, magisti'i infor- " matoris vel capellani agatur, in pocnam per dicti " collegii prajpositum et majorem partem sociorum " arbitrandam." That looks as if the object were to fix a different penalty to be assigned by a different person. {Lord Lyttelton.) It says further: "In pnenam " domini episcopi Lincolniensis qui pro tempore fuerit " infligendam arbitrio convertatur ? " {Mr. Thompson.) It is the poena perjurii. {Lord Lyttelton.) " Si vero de perjurio agatur " dicti prajpositi, in pcEnam domini episcopi Lin- " colniensis qui pro tempore fuerit infligendam arbi- " trio convertatur ? " {3Ir. 77wmpson.) It was so, I ihink, in the old university statutes at Cambridge. 754. {Lord Lyttelto?i.) Is it understood that the Visitor acts upon that third paragraph of the Detlara- tiones correctiones et reformationes ? — ( The Provost.) No ; the question of the observance of the statutes was argued before the Visitor. 755. Is there any record of the arguments ? — {Mr, Dupuis.) Yes. 756. (J)//-.. Vaughan.) Of the four clauses in the reformationes, is it considered that the last but one, in giving an exemption from the precise penalties incurred liy breach of statutes on special grounds stated, and imposing other penalties in their place, positively releases the College from the statutes ? — I do not know that it was framed with reference to that particular clause at all. 757. Of the three clauses which remain, are not all addressed to separate points irrelevant to the matter in question ?—-{3Ir. Dupuis.) I hold a living, but I do not consider myself a perjured man in con-; sequence. 758. I only ask for the principle upon which the College, as a eoi-porate body, justified its acceptance of the dispensation from the provisions of the Founder, when the Founder has clearly stated that they should not accept any dispensation at all from any person ? — Queen Elizabeth oveiTuled that. PUBLIC SCHOOLS COMMISSION : — MINUTES OP EVIDENCE. 27 T.^D. [Mr. Thompson.) And gave a dispensation %vith regard to that chuue ? — It dispensed with that claui-e ipso facto. 760. {Mr. Vaughan.) What do you suppose the position of the Crown was with regai-d to the dis- pensation ? (.Vr. Diipttis.) All that has been argued before. 761. (Mr. Thompson.) I believe there was the game provision in the King's College statutes, and that it has been overridden ? — Yes. 762. (A Commissioner.) Indeed it was pronounced to be illegal. — Was it pronounced to be illegal ? 763. Yes, the oath of secrecy has been ? — I did not know that it had been so decided. 764. {Lord Lyttelton.) Is that decision in the pos- Ecssion of the College ? — I have got a copy of my own. 765. Have the arguments and decision upon that question been reported in any law book ? — I do not know. ( The Provost.) The dispensation itself is appended to the original copy of the statutes. 766. {Mr. Vaughan.) If there has been a legal decision upon the point, of course the legal question vras settled ? {Lord Lyttelton.) It w.as settled on argument before the Visitor, assisted by Sir William Grant and Sir William Scott. 767. {Mr. Vanghan.) Has the right of the College to accept the dispensation ever been Inought before the Visitor, and has it been decided in the aflinnative after a legal argument ? — {Mr. Diipuis.) It has. 768. {Lord Clarendon.) We now come to the series of questions No. II. You say, " It is true there " is contemplated in the statutes a grammar school, " to which others would come for a time to be taught '■'• grammar ; but so little is mentioned of this, as " compared with the scholars, dioristers, aad other " members of the College, that for the sake of clear- " ness we adhere to the word College, except where " special allusion is made to the grammar school, as '• mentioned in the statutes." I presume you mean by that the school at Eton apart from the foundation? — (Mr. Dupiiis.) Certainly. 769. In what way throughout the evidence re- lating to Eton do you distinguish the oppidans from the scholars. You do not call it a grannnar school throughout. You merely talk of it as the College and school? — (Mr.Dupuis.) We only mention the College and school ; we do not speak of the College and grammar school, but the College and school. 770. You say, " The College was founded A.T). " 1441, by King Henry VI. It was intended to con- " sist of a Provost and 70 poor scholars, 10 fellows, " 10 chaplains, 10 clerks, 16 choristers, one Head " Master, 1 lower master, and 13 poor feeble men." Will you state how far that is adhered to now ? — {Mr. Dupuis.) You will see from the answer to question 2, that " at present the College consists of a " Provost, seven Fellows, three conducts, 70 scholars, " 12 choristers, 10 lay clerks, besides 10 servants ; " there are also 10 almswomen." 771. Between the original constitution of the College and its present constitution there is a con- siderable diiFerence. Is it shown when and for what reason that difference arose ? — Do you allude to there being seven fellows now instead of 10 ? 772. Yes ? — It is shown that 10 were appointed by Henry VI., and it is believed, but I do aot know that it is actually certain, that there have been seven ever since the time of Edward IV., and the reason of the decrease was the diminution of the estates and revenues of the College, which were half taien away by the king. ( The Provost.) I think that is all stated upon page 26. {3Ir. Vaughan.) Yes. You say, " The original " number of Fellows mentioned in the statutes " was 10. This number is believed to have been " reduced in the reign of Edward IV., when a " part of the estates was taken away, and the num- " ber was reduced in consequence. Since the reign " of Edward IV. the number has been uniformly " seven." 773. {Lord Clarendon.) Originally there were 10 Fellows and 10 chaplains. Now there are only three chaplains or Conducts ? — {Mr, Dupiiis.) Yes ; three instead of 10.. 774. Is it known when that change was made ? — It is believed to have been made about the same time. 775. And the choristers also ? — Yes, they were increased from 10 to 12 a few years since. 776. How was it with regard to the 10 lay clerks? — The 10 lay clerks seem to have remained, and they are there now. 777. What are the la)' clerks? — The singing men. 778. Singing men only ? — Yes ; nothing else. 779. I see there are 10 servants. Looking at the 38th statute, it appears that more servants are re- quired to be maintained at the expense of the foun- dation. There are a great variety of butlers, under butlers, and people, all of whom are to be called servants ? — Yes ; thei-e are two butlers, two brewers, two bakers, two cooks, a gardener, and a porter. 780. Is the statutable number of servants now kept ? — We have about 10 now. I do not know what the statutable number was. 781. Then there are servitors to assist the servants. Who are they ? ai-e they maintained now ? In what statute does that provision occur? — I think in statute 10. 782. {Lord Lyttelton.) They are poor youths ? — {Mr. Dnpitis.) They are supposed never to have e.xisted. 783. {Lord Clarendan.) You say : " The Provost " is elected by the Fellows according to statute 7. " He is required to be 30 years of age, ia priest's " orders, of the degree of Bachelor of Divinity " at least, or a Doctor in Canon Law, born in " England, and educated on the foundation of Eton. " He may be chosen from the actual Fellows of Eton, " or the actual Fellows of King's, or from those who " h.-ive ever belonged to the royal colleges of King " Henry VI., and have left either college on good " and lawful grounds " ? — Yes ; he is to be chosen from Eton or King's. 784. So that any gentleman educated at Eton and who has been at King's would be eligible for Pro- vost ? — Yes ; that is, if educated upon the foundation at Eton. 785. Will you tell us how in accordance with that the Fellows claim to elect the Provost ? — I wilL Under statute 7, " De electione propositi nostri colle- " gii memorati, ac juramento ejusdem." It is perfectly clear that the Fellows have the right of election. 786. {Lord Lyttelton.) Is there no indication of the power of the Crown ? — No. I have no wish to speak disrespectfully of the Crown, but the claim to exercise power in this matter is a usurpation. I have been a Fellow for 22 years, and have been present at the election of four Provosts, and out of the four the Crown bad certainly nothing to do with two. 787. {Lord Clarendon.) Do you mean that the Fellows put in no claim ? — I mean that the Fellows elected Dr. Hawtrey, the last Provost. In the case of the previous Provost, Mr. Hodgson, the Crown did send down his name ; but he was not then qualified. He must be a Bachelor of Divinity — Baccalaureus Sanctm TheologitE. He was not qualified, and the Fellows elected the present Bishop of Lichfield, who declined the office. 788. When was the claim of the Crown first put in ? — Probably by the Founder himself, as it was a royal foundation. Henry VI. is usually believed to have exercised it in his lifetime as sovereign and founder of the royal college. It has gone on since that time, with the exception of the period of the civil wars. I think Cromwell appointed a Provost, Sir Francis Rous ; Nicholas Lockyer, in 1658, I be- lieve, was elected by the Fellows ; his election was confirmed by Richard Cromwell. {Mr. Dupuis.) With regard to the last instance, the election of Dr. Hawtrey, when I say that the Crown D 2 ETON. Rev. C.O.Oooilford. liev. G. J. D'lpvis. Rev. J. Wilder, T. BatcheldoT, Esq. 5 July 1863. 28 PUBLIC SCHOOLS COMMISSION :— MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. ETON. lltr. C. O. Guoilford. Rev. O, J. Dtiftuis. Jten. J. WiliUr. T. Jiiilihelilur, 5 July 18fi2. hnd nothing to do witli it, I mean, that no letter of re- commendation cnmc down through the usual channe. from tlie First Minister of the Crown to the College, and we elected Dr. Ilawtrey ourselves. 789. Was that done without any protest from the Crown ? Yes, without any protest or reservation. A letter did come, hut it came too late ; we had elected in the mcaiifiine. 790. (Lord Li///il/o>i.) Tlio ftirm is a mere re- commendation from the Crown ; there is no assertion of a right to appoint ?— The form of words is rather stringent. 791. What is the form ?— The words are "willing and requiring you." ( The Provost.) I do not think they go so far as that. Sometimes " effectually," sometimes " specially recommending," sometimes " willing or requiring." {Afr. Batcheldor.) No, I think not. {Mr. Diipuk.) I think tiiey do ; but the question is a serious one, and I should be very sorry to make any misrepresentation. 792. (3Ir. Vaughaii.) Has that form been sent in the majority of cases ? — We have Queen's letters or sovereign letters from the reign of Charles II. up to the present time. 793. {Lord Lyttellon.) Always recommending ? — Yes. 794. {Lord Clarendon.) They always exercised ■what they seemed to think was the original riglit reserved to them by the Founder ? — Yes, the original right exercised by the Founder, but which has been a usurpation since. 79.5. Can you mention any other instances in which the Crown without a protest has allowed the Fel- lows to elect ? — 111 the case of the election of the Bishop of Lichfield, I understood that the Prime Mi- nister of that day, Lord Melbourne, was in com- munication with Mr. Hodgson, and the late Lord Denman, and I know that there was no protest on the part of the Crown. 796. You have alluded to the existence of a similar statute in reference to King's ? — Yes. Allow me to state what took place there. The same power of the Crown existed in regard to King's, or was acquiesced in until 1689, the year after William III. came. A vacanc}' occurred at that time at King's, and the Fellows of King's of that day resisted t'ne nomina- tion of the Crown and would not appoint its nominee. There is a most curious account of what took place upon the books of King's ; they would not appoint the person nominated by the Crown. William III. had only recently arrived in England, and was hardly settled in his authority. William III., however, was exceed- ingly angry, and had the case argued before the Privy Council at Hampton Court, when it was decided against the Crown ; since which time the Fellows of King's have independently, as they always ought to have done, exercised their right. I believe that Sir Isaac Newton was sent down by the King, and I think, if the claim of the Crown, in reference to Eton, were ' argued as a question of law the Crown would not be able to substantiate it. 797. {Sir S. Norihcote.) I believe that some of the Provosts who have been appointed by the Crown have not fulfilled the statutory conditions? — Yes. The statutes say, that they must be Bachelors of Di- vinity, at least ; but there have been laymen appointed by the Crown. 798. {Mr. Vatigha7i.) Does it appear how many have been appointed by tlie Crown on the one hand, and how many by the College on the other ? — No. I think there have been but a few instances of appoint- ments upon our part, except by the nomination of the Crown. 799. {Lord Clarendon.) In the special instance which you have mentioned, did the Fellows elect in haste, and before the letter could come down from the Crown, or did they allow the usual time to elapse before they proceeded to the election ? — A fortnight before the election took place, or more than that, a notice ■ft-as given, and the day of election was fixed, and we were expecting, in the usual way, a letter from the then Minister who was, I believe Lord John Russell.- 800. {Mr. Vatiffhan.) Will you expliiin what,, under these circumstances, is the reason of the answer here given, that the Provost is elected by the Fellows according to the statute ? — The form of elec- tion is still preserved. 801. {Lord L^ijttelton.) In this answer you do not allude to the power of the Crown — No. The election goes on as if nothing had happened. 802. {Mr. Vaughan.) May I ask then, if you con sider that all the statutable formalities, according to which the statutes say that the Proy«st shall be elected are complied with ? — Yes. 803. Are the statutes about the election, for this is one of the statutable formalities,, read ? — Yes, they are read through. 804. Miiy I ask wlietlier the electors take any oath before proceeding to the election ? — Yes, they do. 805. Is the oath they take sthe oath which the Founder has prescribed i — Y''es, word for word. 806. Is there any confirmation of the election by any person after it has taken place ? — Yes ; by the Visitor. 807. That is to say, by the Bishop of Lincoln, ac- cording to the statute? — Yes, according to the statute. 898. Has there ever been any sach delay in the election as has led to thelapse of the right of election ? — I never heard of it. 809. Has the Bishop of Lincoln, as a matter of fact, ever elected or nominated the Provost ? — No ; but the right of election would lapse to him rafter a certain time. 810. But you are not aware that the right has ever been exercised in that way ? — No, I think not. I thiuk we should not let it out of our own haads so easily. 811. Does the Provost upon his election itake any oath ? — Yes. 812. Does he take the oath which the statutes prescriije ? — Yes. 813. {I^ord Clare7idon.) Is it not prescribed that the Provost and Fellows shall make themselves thoroughly acquainted with the statutes ? — I believe it is. 814. {A 'Commissioner.) Do you consider that the Provost and Fellows are thoroughly acquainted with the statutes ? — I cannot speak in their behalf. 815. {Mr. F«»<^/(a«.) Is it not prescribed that they shall be read three times a year ? — I believe it is. 816. {L^ord Clarendon.) It is so prescribed. Are they read three times a year ? — No. 817. Are they ever read at all? — {Mr. B'ilder.) Portions of them are read annually ; for instance, those which have reference to the appointanents of officers are read annually. 818. Relating to the appointment of officers ?— Yes, or anything connected with-mattera in which ■we ourselves are concerned. AH such statutes are read ; I mean those relating to the vice-provost and bursars as well as to the Provost. {Mr. Dttpuis.) There are certain officers re-elected every year, and at their eleetien the statutes relating to the offices they fill are read. {Mr. Wilder.) We do not read the statutes through, but those pai'ts relating to these offices are read. 819. Do you not apjwehend, according to the 43rd statute, that the object of the Founder was that every sworn member of the College should be con- versant with and cognizant of the statutes ? — I take it that -we are cognizant of the statutes to a con- siderable extent ; but as half of them are obsolete, and have fallen into disuetude, it would be absurd to require the whole of them to be read. 820. Is it not presci'ibed that the liber originalis should be kept in the library ? — I believe it is. 621. Is it the liber originalis, or a copy ? — {The Provost.) The liber originalis, with Henry the Sixth's seal attached to it, and Queen Elizabeth's dispensatien at the end of it. PUBLIC SCHOOLS COMMISSION : — SHNTTTES OP EVIDENCK 29 822. The prevalent notion is that the liher origi- nalis has been removed, and locked up in the muni- ment room ? — The statutes are kept in the muniment room. {Mr. Dupuis.) They have been placed tlicre for the sake of security. ( The Proi-ost.) The original is kept in the muniment room. There are copies, however, in the library. {Lord Clarendon.) Then there is a copy of the statutes in the library to which anyone can have , access for purposes of reference, who is a member of the foundation. {Mr. Dupuis.) Yes. There is the liher oriyinalis, and many copies besides. {Mr. Thompson.) I think there is a provision that the scholars shall have access to the statutes. {Mr. If'ildcr.) They have access to the statutes now. ( The Provost.) There is a copy of them in the boys' library, so that every scholar can Jiaye access to them. Their copy is much easier .to read than those in our library. 823. {Lord Lyttelton.) I wish to call your attention to a passage in the oath of the Fellows. It may appear to apply to the right of the Crown to interfere with tlie election of Provost. The words are iu the oath of the Fellows, and are these : — " Item, quod nou impetrabo " literas aut preces principum pra>latorum, aut " aliorum magnatum quorumeumque, sou alia media " fieri procurabo, ut ad ofiicium pra^positWK, vice- ' pra3positurjE, seu alia qua;cumque officia infra idem " collegium per me gerenda ullo unquam tempore " ^ligar vel assumar." Do )'ou remember those words'? — (Mr. Dupuis.) Yes, 1 have read them. 824. Do they bear upon that question ? — It forbids them, I should say, to acquiesce in or obtain any such influence. ■625. Does it appear to go against the claims of the Crown ? — No. {The Provost.) It only debars them from trying to obtain it themselves. 626. (Mr. Vattghan.) Do you think the word princcps iWv\y applicable to a king? — To noblemen, I think. 827. Is not princcps the word applied in old authors to the highest nobles ? — Yes. 828. (Lord Lyttelton.) I understood you to say that there was a series of examples of the Crown having recommended persons for appointment since the time of Chai'les II. ? — Yes. 829. I find that long before that time, namely, in the reign of Edward VI., there was a letter of recommendation from the Crown upon the election of Sir Thomas Smith. Have you ever seen that ? — Ko. I know that there are older instances than the time of Charles II., but I cannot recollect any par- ticular case at this moment. (Mr. Dupuis.) Since the time of Charles II. I can state that there have been letters of recommendation from the Crown. The following letter, extracted from the college register was then read by one of the witnesses : — Copy of Edavard the Sixth's Letter recom- mending Sir Thomas Smith as Pkovost of Eton. " Trusty and well-belovyd we greate you well, and whereas the provostshipp or mastershipp of our CoUeage of Eton is now at this present void by the resignation of the most reverente fader in God Robt. Byshopp of Carliell, we therefore having » zeale and regard to the good government of that our coUeage, and desiring to see you furnyshed with suche a governor as in all poynts might seem worthy for the Room, have thought good, by advice and coun sell of our entirely belovyed Uncle Edward Duke of Somerset and governor of our person, and Protector of all our realmes, domynions, and subjects, to comend to you by these letters our trusty and well- belovyd Thomas Smythe, Doctor of CLvill Laws, whom we know to be most mete to the government of suche a colledge for the furtheraace of vertue and lernynge, willynge and requirynge you therefore to Jiev. C. O. GooJfiird. Rev. G. J. Dupuis. Esq. 5 July 1862. elect and chose the same to the sayd government and ETON. oflfyse, and to thentcnt that there myght be no stop nor lett to the same by cause that the sayd Thomas is not a prieste or doctor of diviuitie, or otherwyse qualj'fyed as your statutts dothe requyre, we con- syderynge his otlier qualities, thexcellency whereof Hev. J. WiMer, do far surmount the defect that this before rehearsed T. Batcheldor, shold make, have disspensed and by these presents do disspense to j-ou and the sayd Thomas and any other that shall admytt the same with and for all suche thyngs or matters as shold stopo or lett the , same election. Wherefore, as our trust is of your ■ gentel conforraytie therein, so we do not dought thaccomplyshment of this our plesure, you shall have cause to thynke yourselfe furnyshed of suche a master or provost as appertcynythe. Given under our sygnet at our house* of Hampton Court, the xxvth day of December, the fyrst yeaj' of our rayne." 830. (L.ord L^yttleton.) Is that substantially the same as the letter used in later times ? — It is very nearly the same ; i cannot say whether it is exactly word for word. 831. There is another letter dated 1621, from the visitor, the Bishop of Lincoln, where he speaks of the right of election " being originally not iu the King, but " in the Fellows, but now by neglect devolved on " me "? — (The Provost.) That is a case of lapse. ! 832. He there speaks clearly of the right not being ie the King ? — Yes. ! 883. {Mr. Vattghait.) Is there an instance of any \ one ever having been elected as Provost who did not satisfy all the conditions mentioned here, such, for instance, as having belonged to the Royal College of King Henry VI.? — (The Provost.) There are in- stances of laymen having been appointed who cer- tainly did not satisfy the conditions imposed by the statutes. 834. Who were they ? — They were Sir Henry Wotton and Sir Thomas Smitli. (Mr. Dupuis.) And Sir Henry Savile. 835. Are there any other points upon which the conditions prescribed in the statutes have not been satistied ? — (The Provost.) I am not sure. 836. With regard to being a member of one or other of the Colleges ? — I do not know whether all who have been selected were members or not. 837. Has the proper interpretation of the words of the statute always been held to be " one who has ' " been on the foundation of the College "? — Yes. ' 838. Do you know if there has ever been any practical deviation from that ? — I could not under- take to say. (Mr. Dupuis.) Nicliolas Monk could not have been qualilied ; he was brother of General Monk, after- wards Djjke of Alhemarle. Sir Francis Rous, again, could not have been qualified. (Mr. Batcheldor.) Nor Nicholas Lockyer. 839. (Lord Clarendon.) Does any benefit result IVom the requirement that the Provost should be born in England and educated upon the foundation ? — (Mr. Dupuis.) No bad result ensues from it. 840. You might enlarge the choice by not insistii:ig upon tlie requirement that he should be educated upon the foundation ? — Yes ; there is one restriction mentioned in the statutes which I think does act as a kind of bar, and that is, that he should be a Bachelor of Divinity ; that, in the present day, is not a restriction of any value, and I should like to see it altered. 841. (A Commissioner.) I believe he must be a B. D. at the moment of his election ? — Yes ; that is the reason Mr. Hodgson was ineligible when the Queen sent him down. 842. (Lord Devon.) What do you consider would be the eifect of any relaxation in the terms of the qualification so as to admit of the appointment of laymen ? — I think that in an Ecclesiastical and Church Corj)oration like that, of Eton.it would not be desirable. • The word is almost effaced.— C. 0. Goodpokd. D 3 so PUBLIC SCHOOLS COMMISSION .'—MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. ETON. lieo. C. O. Goodford. Rev. G. J. Dupuis, Hn: J. Wilder. T. liatchclduT) Esq. r. July 1862. 843. Do you not think that there might be coun- tervailing adv.antH;;es in having a man whose know- ledge of ^tho world might have been more extended than that of a gentleman in holy orders ?— I would rather have a person in holy orders, as he would have ecclesiastical duties to perform in the chapei ; at present the Provost preaches before the boys, and under these circnnistances, I do not think it would bo advantageous that a layman should be at the head of the College. 844. I take it that he is only one of those who preach before the boys ?— No, only one. 845. How often does the Provost preach to them, necessarily?— (T^e Provost.) Not more than eight Sundays in the year, necessarily. 846. Is the duty of preaching on other occasions taken by the Fellows alternately ? — Yes. 847. How often l>y the Head Master ? — Never, necessarily, except when he catechises in Lent. 848. {Mr. Vmtgban.) With regard to the quali- fication which Lord Devon has mentioned, is it not a very prominent and important duty, imposed by oath upon the Provost, that he should take care of and manage the property of the College ? — Yes, I believe so. 849. Do you not think that, in that point of view, it might now and then be of great advantage to the College to have at any rate the option of choosing a person who would naturally, in some cases, be acquainted with the law? — No ; I think it would be inconsistent with his other duties. The only advan- tage would arise in the performance of the duties which have just been mentioned to the Commission. 850. What are the duties you think it would be inconsistent with ; will you be kind enough to state them ? — I mean his ecclesiastical duties in chapel. 851. Are those strictly ecclesiastical duties of the Provost which you have just been mentioning less necessary or important to the College, in consequence of the provisions which have been made with re- gard to the qualifications of the Head Master ? — ^I do not exactly understand the question. 852. Are those qualifications for the performance of ecclesiastical duties, on the part of the Provos-t, less necessary for the due execution of the office in consequence of similar qualifications being possessed by the Head Master. Is not the Head Master re- quired to be a clergyman ? — He is by custom. 853. Is he always practically a clergyman ? — Yes. 854. Is he always present in the chapel ? — Yes. 855. Might he not very naturally, and without having any very onerous duties imposed upon hinr, perform those ecclesiastical duties in chapel which at the present moment are performed by the Provost ? — It would be a very great addition to his ordinary labour. 856. At present how many times does the Provost preach in the course of the year ? — He preaches eight times in the year. 857. Eight sermons in the course of the year would not be a very great hardship. That is what it amounts to, practically, is it not ? — Yes ; but he has also the superintendence of the parish thrown upon him. 858. Do you not think that it would be a useful ! division of labour, the Head Master being in the Church as well as the Provost, and having the moral superintendence of the boys, that he should perform all the ecclesiastical duties and leave the Provost to attend to the ;nanagcment of the property and to take care generally of the secular interests of the College? — Do you mean that it would be advantageous to the College if the Provost had more time to attend to that ? 850. Yes ; would it not be advantageous to the College to give the Provost more time for attending to the nmnagemcnt of the College property and its secular relations. At present his educated habits as a clergyman do not give him much aptitude for such duties ?— Do you mean that the property would be better managed if the Provost were a layman ? 860. Yes? Of course there cannot be a doabt that a man accustomed to the management of property mi"-ht attend to those matters better than a man who was not. 861. Are Bot such secular duties, considering the profession of the Head Master, more wanted by the College than the ecclesiastical duties the Provost has now to perform ? — The Founder has placed the Provost in such a position that he could not relin- quish those ecclesiastical duties. 862. In reading over the statutes, does it not appear to you that the Founder has placed the Provost in a double position in having left to his care the spiritual interests of the College and in a high degree its secular interests ? — Yes. 863. Upon reading the Provost's oath and the sta- tute on the duties of the Provost, does it strike yon which of these duties are the most numerous? — I take it that his spiritual duties are paramount. 864. Should you say that they were paramount in their number aad importance ? — Yes. 865. Let me enumerate them as they stand in the statute. In the fid-st place, he has pre-eminence andi command over the Head Master and all the officers of the College, does that strike you as being necessarily an ecclesiastical duty ? — His having the command off the Head Master ? 866. Yes ; having a command over the Head Master and the offix;ers of the College, and making them observe the statutes — do you think that that would not be done by a layman as efficiently as by a clergyman ? — I suppose thiat a layman might exercise the authority, 867. As to the seeonS duty mentioned, I believe it is the case, that the spirituftl interests of tlie parish are, although belonging strictly to the Provost, confided to the Conducts ? — Yes, under the superin- tendence of the Provost. 868. The third duty is that of administering the property with diligenee and with prmdence. Is not that a duty which a layman could perform equally well with a clergyman ? — I suppose a layman might be as diligent and as prudent as a clergyman. 869. And could he not discharge the other duties ■which remain in the description of the Founder, namely, that of enforcing the statutes, overlooking the expenditure, aud husbanding the surplus. Do you not think that those are also duties which a lay- man is equally compietent to perform ? — Yes, I dare say you could get one man to perform any duty as well as anybody else ; but whether that is a reasoB why you should alter the Founder's intention is another question. 870. Again as to the oath. Are there any of the duties which the Provost has undertaken upon oath to perform, which a layman might not perform equally well. For instance, to shew impartiality in admi- nistering the property, and in the maintenance of all necessary law suits. Then again, to defend the in- terests of the College with vigour, to superintend the election of the scholars, and to make proper pro- vision for the masters of the school ; to keep up the number of officers, and the observance of the statutes according to their plain and literal meaning, rejecting all manner of dispensations and refusing to obey repugnant statutes. Does it strike you that there is anything in those duties which the Provost undertakes by oath to perform which a layman could not undertake also to perform with equal efficiency ? — A clerical Provost can perform aU the duties which the statutes have imposed upon him, and a layman would only be able to perform part. 871. But are there not part of the duties which a layman would be more apt to perform than a clergy- man ? — Possibly there may be. 872. {Lord Devon.) You have mentioned that the practice of having a clergyman in the office of Head Master rests upon usage. Am I correct in inferring from that, that there is nothing in the statutes which PUBLIC SCHOOLS COMMISSION: — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 81 j'cquires that the Head Master of the school should 1)0 in holy orders ? — I think it is implied that ho is to lie ill holy orders. 873. Ho is to be " in grnmmatica sufficicnter " eruditiis, habens doeendi pcritimn, in artibus " majrister, si talis commode adquiri posset, minime " conjiigatus, ant in aliquo coUegio, capella, vei " ecclesia curata infra spatium septera miliarium a " dicto collegio nostro de Etona iutitulatus," and so on. Then it goes on to define his duties. Is there anything there that requires him to be in holy orders ? — No, but the language there used implies his being in orders. 874. If it were desirable to introduce the lay element into the conduct or management of so large a school as Eton, might it not with equal advantage be introduced by a lay Head Master as by a lay Provost? — I should not like to see a lay Head Master. 875. I take it that you would rather not see a layman in either position ? — No. 876. But as the law stands, there is nothing to prevent a layman from becoming Head Master ? — No. 877. (Sir S. Northcote.) Of the two, which do you think would be most objectionable, a lay Head Master or a lay Provost ? — Of the two, I should say a lay Provost. 878. {Lord Lyttelton.) The Head Master may bo a layman ? — Yes. 879. But with regard to the lower master, the original provision was that he should not be a der- gymau ? — Yes. 880. How is it that that provision Las ceased to be observed ? — I imagine that the notion originally entertained was that a person in lioly orders would not take so low an office. It was considered rather derogatory. (Mr. Dupuis.) I remember a lay lower master, Dr. Keate ; he was not in holy orders for a portion of his time certainly. 881. But was not the meaning of the provision that he should not be in holy orders during the whole of his time ? — {The Provost.) Yes. 882. That has become obsolete, has it not ? — Yes. 883. {Sir S. Northcote.) So has the rule with regard to his not being married ? — Yes. 884. (Lord Lyf/elton.) With regard to the Pro- vost being in holy orders ; your view is that he has specially the spiritual charge of the school under him, and you look to that as the paramount part of his duties ? — The Founder appears so to have consi- dered it. 885. With regard to the management of the school property is there anytiiing in that which any man of intelligence and education cannot perform ? — I think not. 886. {Mr. Thompson.) Referring to the alter- native proposal of a lay Head Master, or a lay Provost do you think that a lay Head Master would command the confidence of English parents ? — Certainly not, 887. Do you think that the appointment of a lay Head Master, would tend to diminish the number in the school ? — I do think so, and that is a most im- portant consideration. 888. Do you express that opinion from your own experience and observation ? — Yes ; the persons who send their children to Eton, regai-d that as one of the most important considerations. 889. As a general rule lay school masters are not successful you think ? — That is a point I cannot answer. 890. {Lord Devon.) Is the College chapel tho parish church of Eton ? — Yes. 891. Before the recent church was used was that so { — Yes. (Mr. Dupuis.) It is really so stilL 892. Where do the marriages take place ? ( The Provost.) In the College chapel. {Mr. Dupuis.) Some marriages take place in the other church by permission of the Bishop of Oxford. 893. Till that church was built, did not all mar- riages take place in the College chapel ? — Yes, all of them. 894. They were performed by tho Conduct? — Yes. 895. {Mr. Thompson.) And the Provost is legally ETON, Rev. C. O. Goodford. Rev. G. J. Dupvis. the rector of Eton ? — {Mr. Batcheldor.) The Pro- jiev. J. \VHder. v«st is rector, and has tho euro of souls ; but the in- come of the living, the tithes, is part of tho College funds. 896. How would it bo in tho case of a lay Provost who could not exercise tho cure of souls ? — {Mr. Dupuis.) It would then be in abeyance. 897. Does tho Provost or the Provost and Fellows appoint the curate ? — The Provost only. 898. {T^ord ClarendonS) Is it not the special duty of the Vice-Provost and Fellows to assist tho Provost ? — ( The Provost.) Yes, in his absence. 899. {Mr. Thompson.) When a layman was Pro- vost, the difficulty must have been met in some way ? —Yes. 900. {Lord Lyttelton.) Is the Provost ever ap- pealed to in parochial matters by tho inhabitants, or are the duties in practice entii'ely exercised liy the Conducts ? — He is appealed to. 901. {I^ord Clarendon.) Does he take an active superintendence ; a real superintendence ? — There is a charity school of which he and tlic Fellows are Trustees. They attend all the meetings and see what the state of the school is. 902. {Mr. ]''aughan.) Looking at the statutes and the present practice, docs it appear that the Provost's powers have rather diminished practically over the members of the College ? — I hardly know. 903. You have not read the statutes with that view ? — No ; I do not know that they have dimi- nished. 904. {Lord Clarendon.) You say in the printed answers, " The Fellows are seven in number, and aro " elected by the Provost and Fellows, each having " equal votes, and no casting vote being allowed to " the Provost. They should Ix! chosen either from " actual Fellows of King's or from tliose who have " been Fellows of King's, or from those who arc or " have been Conducts, or from those who have been " scholars of Eton ; but in case that none sucli be " considered eligible, a choice may be made from " other persons." Upon the whole, that gives a wide field for the choice of fellowships. Do you think it would bo advantageous to the foundation if they were thro'wn more open ? — You see we have a wider choice if none of the Fellows of King's, or Con- ducts, or scholars of Eton are considered eligible. 905. But a man may not be ineligible and yet be by no means the best whom it would be desirable to have ? — Yes. If you restrict the choice to persons simply eligible, I do not think that the best arrange- ment you could make for the foundation. 906. (Jl/r. Vnughan.) Do you know what the Latin of the term is to which you have returned this answer, " In case that none such should be considered eligible ?" — I do not recollect. 907. It is "aut alias." Does it appear to you that " alias " only means if none such are eligible ? — ^No. 908. (Lord Lyttelton.) The statute says, "vel de " presbyteris conductitiis ejusdem collegii de Etona, " vel de hiis qui prius fuerant in eodem et ex causis " licitis et honestis recesserunt ab ipso, habilem et " sufficientem, aut alias de collegiis vel locis iiliis." That is very general. {Mr. Dupuis.) That word "other persons" docs not express the meaning quite fully. {Mr. Vaughan.) I think the answer expresses rather too much. "That in case none such be con- " sidered eligible," is an inference on the word alias, which is a little too wide. {Lord Lyttelton.) The implication would be that it means " failing such as are previously recited." '909. {Mr. Vaughan.) Have you known any in- stances of Fellows ever having been taken from other than the colleges mentioned ? ( The Provost.) I am not aware of any. D4 T. Batcheldor, Esq. 5 July 1862. 82 PUBLIC SCHOOLS COMMLSSION : — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. ETON. Ueo. C. O. Gmxl/ord. Iter. G. J. Dupuis, lirv. ./. Wililcr. T. fiiilcheldor, £sq. 5 July 1»62. (Mr. Diipuis.) I Jo know that in the last century a Fellow of the name of Barnard was chosen, wh» was not eligible according to the statutes, 910. He did not belong to either of the two colleges ? I think not ; but that was a great exception, and it was considered wrong at the time. He was the son of Provost Barnard. 911. {Lord Clarendon.) Do you not think that it would be advantageous to open the fellowships more ? , « ■ xi {The Provost.) It would appear to be sulhciently open already if we iuive tlie alias. 912. Have there over been Fellows elected except under those conditions? — ! do not know of any except in the instance mentioned by Mr. Dupuis. 913. {Mr. Vaitrihan.) Is there not another quali- fication for a Fellow whieli is not mentioned here ?— . {Mr. Viipitis.) What is it? 914. " Cantandi peritia," skill in music ? — Yes. 915. That is not mentioned in your answer as one of the (jualifications ? — No. 916. Is that because it has been practically nclected ? Yes. I presume the reason of that qualification was the musical services in the chapel in Roman Catholic times. 917. There is no mention in the College answers of what I believe to exist, namely, certain honourable grounds for removing Fellows who have been elected. It is the 2oth statute. "Propter quas causas rationa- " biles et honestas prcsbyteri socii perpetui debeant ) " finaliter a coUegio recedere niemorato." Do you ' know whether that part of the statutes is at all in I force. There are two causes mentioned in the statute, ■ namely, an absence from Eton for more than six ; weeks in the year, and a small pecuniary possession of a certain sum — 10/. annually, I think. Have either of those causes of removal ever been acted upon ?— Not within my memory. {The Provost.) I tliink the possession of a certain sum of money is always interpreted to bo money derived from land. 918. The phrase is rather more comprehensive than that; it is" patrimouium ha^reditatem feodumve " seculare pei-petuum, aut annuam perpetuam pen- " sionem,'' " a perpetual annual payment." Have you known any cases of the removal or of the leaving of College by Fellows on account of the acquisition of property ? — The only case which occurs to my mind is that of a Fellow who was about to pui-chase a small property, but who. I believe, did not do so. 919. Do you allow that whatever objection there might exist to a Fellow having landed property, the same objection would exist to a Fellow having per- sonal property ? — It has never been interpreted to extend beyond landed property. 920. Does it strike you that that is a reasonable interpretation of the words " aut annuam perpetuam " pensionem ad valorem communibus annis decem " lilirarum assecutus fuerit ? " — I suppose it would amount to much the same thing. 921. If the sum mentioned in the statute were pro- duced from personal property, would it not come within the terms of the statute. Has the other dis- qualification ever been acted upon ? — {The Provost.) Not that I am aware of. 922. The disqualification In reference to the pos- session of landed property or non-residence ? Not that I am aware of. 923. You cannot recall to your recollection any person who ever vacated a fellowship upon the ground either of non-residence, or the possession of property ? — I never remember anything of the kind. 924. Do you think that one or other of them must have occurred ? — I have always understood that the Fellows have never held lauded property for that very reason. I have always understood that if they did they would be disqualified from holding their fellow- ships. 925. Do you think that the distinction drawn be- tween personal property and landed property is a reasonable distinction, and one that should be kept up and acted upon ? — I cannot say, but it is one that has always been held ; it was held at King's as well. 926. {Mr. Thompson.) Do you think that the prohibition is reasonable or desirable ? — I do not. 927. {Lord Lyttelton.) Was the disability of a Fellow to marry part of the general law ? — Yes ; it applied originally to priests. 928. Was that removed, or by the alteration of the general law which permitted the clergy to marry ? It followed the alteration of the general law. 929. The requisition of celibacy ceased when the general faw of celibacy ceased ? — Yes. {Mr. Dupuis.) Not only at Eton, but universally throughout the Church. 930. Is there any special removal of the restric-. tion ? — ( The Provost.) I am not aware of any. 931. {Lord Clarendon.) How is the Vice-ProTOsI elected ? — Annually, by the votes of the body. 932. Then it is an annual office ? — {Mr. Dupim.') All the officers are appointed annually — ^the bursars, &c. The Vice-Provost is elected, but it is usually 6he senior Fellow. 933. is it so in the present instamce ? — He is senior in n.ge, tmt not in seniority in his place in the- College. The present senior Fellow is Mr. Plumptrej. who begged not to be elected Vice-Provost. 934. In what manner are the scholars elected ? — ( The Provost.) The scholars of Eton ? 935. Yes ? — By an annual examination held by the Provost, the Vice-Provost,, the Head Master o6 Eton, the Provost, and two Fellows of King's, ap- pointed annually for that pui-pose; a(nd called Posers. 936.. Do they elect for both ? — Yes. 937. At the same time ? — At the same time of the year. By the number of elections for King's, we know the number of vacancies there will be at Eton. 938. What is the average number of vacancies at King's ? — We used to reckon about nine in two years ; but now the Provost and Fellows of King's must offer three, and they must offer m»re eventually if they liave more vacancies. 939. Three every year ? — Yes. 940. But suppose they are not vacant ? (Mr. Dupuis.) There are to bo 24 scholarships when the rew system is completed; and there will be four offered every year. There must then be four vacancies every year. At the present moment the system is not quite complete. ( TJie Provost.) Their rota will regulate the vacan- cies. 941. It was not obligatory before ? — No ; some- times you had as many as nine in a year, and some- times you had none. 942. With regard to the JuDior bursar, you say, he transacts all affairs at home, sitch as the mainte- nance of the 70 scholars, the superintendence of their food in hall, and their dwelling. Is that a real bona fide superintendence on the part of the bursar ? {Mr. Dupuis.) Very much so. It does not go to the extent of actually providing meat and flour, and so on, but he has very great supervision over the •whole of the College, and he looks over all the bills. ( The Provost.) The master in college if he wanted anything would go to him. 943. Does he dine in the hall ? Does he attend the hall dinners ? — Yes ; when in residence almost always. 944. Is he not usually in residence? — {Mr. Dupnis.) He is for three or four months in the year ; and the hall books, showing the consumption of the College, are brought ijefore him to check. He signs his name to them every week. 945. Is the senior bursar usually resident ? — He is for four or five months in the year. I am senior bursar. 946. You say, the precentor is responsible for the College choir, their regularity of attendance in chapel, and general behaviour. You ailso say, that the sacrist has charge of the chapel, the books, and the plate for the altar ? — These are ancieat offices connected with thq College,. PUBUC SCHOOLS COMMISSION: — MINUTKS OF EVIDENCE. 33 947. {Mr. Thompson.) With regard to resideuco, is it not the case that henceforth in accordance with the ecclesiastical law, a Fellow must reside three months at the College ? — He must be at Eton three mouths. He is required to be there for thac leugth of time. 918. (Lord Clarendon.) Does that resolution ap[)ly to every Fellow ^ — Yes ; he must lie in re- sidence there three months in each year. 949. (Mr. Thompson.) If he wanted to be away for more than that time, he would have to get a dis- pensation from the Bishop ? — He is entitled to three months absence from his livinnf. 9.30. No doubt by Act of Parliament he is ; but is he entitled to iive months absence ? — I think he is ; but I do not know what the recent laws are. I have held a living for some time, and considered myself bound to be resident seven mouths at my living, and three months at Eton. It was originally four months, but now it is three. 9.J1. That obligation is jirescribed by the Acts of Parliament aifeotiiig residence ? — I think it is rather the relaxation of the original term of residence. 952. (Lord Li/ttilton.) Is that three mouths statutable ? — I think the statute says ditterently, and fixes four. 9o3. (Mr. Vmtghan.) The statutes say, a Fellow shall not be absent more than six weeks ? — That is not observed now. (Lord Devon.) There does not seem to be any limitation ; but he must not be absent for more than six weeks at a time. (Mr. Vaughan.) Or sepai'ately, " contiuuas vel " discontinuas." 954. (Lord Clarendon.) Generally speaking, how many Fellows are there resident ? — It is very un- certain. Sometimes perhaps four, five, or six, and sometimes the whole body; while at otiier times tliere may be only one. (Mr. Dupiiis.) There always must be one. 955. There always must be one ? — Yes. If yon go down in the middle of the summer vacatimi you will • find not more than one in residence. 956. (3Ir. Thompson.) There always must be one ? — Yes, there nmst be one. 957. (Lord Clarendon.) Besides Ihcir special duties, there are other duties -which the Fellows might be called upon to discharge, but which, u|)0» the whole, are nominal. I see you say in page 26. '• Besides those special duties, the Fellows are re- " quired generally to act with the Provost in the " management and improvement of the College pro- ' perty, in the promotion of the interest and welfare " of the College, both moral and fiscal, floral ly " to act as mediators in case of quarrels or disputes, " as judges in case of delinquency, and if neces- " sary, to be a check upon the Provost ; fiscally, to " be a check upon the bursars, so as to control and " regulate the expenses. They are required there- " fore to render assistance to the College by every '• means in their power ; and practically, all business " of whatever description is lirought before them, " and decided l>y a majority." I apprehend that those duties are merely nominal ? — When anything important is required to be decided, vi-e are summoned into College, and all meet to discuss the question. For instance, that very letter you had in your hand just now, would require a meeting of that sort. 958. You mean as to visitation ? — Y'es ; as to the answer we should give to the Bishop. 959. (Mr. Dvpuis.) No College act can be exe- cuted but in the presence of the Provost and a majority of the Fellows, which is four. For instance, the sealing of a lease, or the applying of the seal of the College in any way whatever is not valid, unless nwjor pars is present. No liusiuess of the College can be transacted without a College meetiug. The consequence is that there are frequently "College meetings, and we must have the Provost and four Fellows to transact any business at all. 960. But I suppose it would be just as well trans- acted if there were oidy two? — I do not know whether it would be. Four are required. ( The Prorost.) They form a quorum. 961. At the meetings of the Provost and Fellows to which you allude, you consider, I suppose, all questions in reference to the property and interest of the College rather than questions relating to the adrainislration of the school 'i — (Mr. Bitpuis.) There is a good deal of that done, but that is a matter which devolves more ujion the Provost without the Fellows ; I mean the administration of the school. 962. (Sir S. Xorthc.ote.) If they were a smaller number and held livings they could not be present always for the Provost to consult ? — No. 963. (Mr. Vaughan.) Is it not the ease that the Founder on founding the College, and appointing the oflicers and masters of the College by statute at the same time, mentioned in specific statutes to that ettect what duties' they should perform ? — 1 believe the duties are specified in the statutes. 964. Do you happen to know if any duties at all are prescribed in that manner to the Fellows ? Those which are specified here, I think. (Mr. Vaiigha/i.) I think, as a matter of fact, that the Founder iirescribtd no duties whatever to the Fellows directly, and that those which are quoted here are all incidental to acts prescribed or forbidden to others ; nor can I find that the duties mentioned here are invariably enjoined by the statutes quoted for them. (Lord Li/t'elton.) They are in the oath. 965. {Mr. ]'aughan.) Could you point out, if the statutes were put into your hands, the particular passage alluded to here, for the purpose of showing how the Founder has imposed the duties upon a Fellow of acting with the Provost in the ma- nagement of the property ? — Probably, if I had the statutes I think 1 could. I think'the first that is .specified, with respect to the management and im- provement of College property is this. The statute says, " Item, quod ad dicti coUegii regalis de Etona •• meliorationem, augmenlationcm bonorum, terrarum, " possessionum. reildituum, et jurium ejusdem con- '• servalioneni, defensionem, promotioiiem(iue, et " expedilioneni, negoliorum dicti collegii quorum- " cunique, ad qiiemcumque statum, gradum, digni- " tatem, vel oflTicmm in posterum devenero, in sanis " eonsiliis, beneficiis, favoribus et auxiliis, quantum " in me fuerit et ad me pertinuerit, diligenter " juvubo, et jiro eisdeni fideliter laborabo, et usque " ad finalem et felieem expeditioncm negotiorum " pnedicti collegii juxta posse iiistabo, quamdiu •' vixero in hoc mundo." 966. (Mr. Thompson.) That is in the oath, I think, is it not ? — Yes. (Mr. Vaughan.) Yes ; they are to give general aid to the College, liut it is not mentioned that they are to act with the Provost in any way as Fellows in the management. (Mr. Thompson.) It is in efltct as much as to say, "We will always be friendly to Eton, even '• when we have ceased to be Fellows." I do not think it relates to their duty as Fellows, but to their benevolence afterwards. It says, " Ad quemcumque " statum, gradum, dignitatem, vel ofl^icium in pos- " terum devenero, in sanis eonsiliis, beneficiis, " fiivoribus, et auxiliis, quantum in me fuerit, et ad " me pertinuerit diligenter juvabo." (Lord L^tjttclton.) But they continue Fellows ? (3Ir. Thompson.) I think not. The words are " in poster i/?n devenero." (Lord Lyttelton.) It would hardly mean that such an oath was not to be observed when he was a Fellow. {Mr. Vaughan.) It does not give any power of management at all, or give them any share in the management of the property in conjunction with the Provost ; that is left entirely out of their hands. (Mr. Thompson.) It seems to me to refer to the case of a Fellow of Eton who has been raised to the position of a high dignitary. E ETON. Rev. C. O. Goodford. liev. G. J. Dupuii, liev. J. Wilder. T. Biitcheldur, Esq. 5 July 1862. u PUBLIC SCHOOLS COiDIISSION :— MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. ETON. Rev. C. O. Good/ord. Rev. G. J. Dupuis. Rev. J. Wilder. T. Batchddar, Esq. 3 July \m-l. 96T. tMr. Vaughan.) Willi ivgard to that par- ticular passage, 1 ilo not uiulor.-stand it to give the Fellows, as Fellows, any particular share in the management of the College proiierty with the I'rovost ; the I'rovost has the general niauagcment given to him, distinctly and personally, in another part of the statute ? — Yes. 968. Again the answers say that " they are to act " as mediators in case of quarrels and disputes." {Luid Dvvoti.) At the bottom of page 501 of the statutes there is this passage in the oath of the Provost : — "Item, si per me vel occasione mei aliqua " dissentionis materia, ira3 vel discordias, in dicto " collcgio de Etona (quod absit) suscitata fuerit, si " super ipsa materia per soeios presbyteros et magis- " trum informatorem seholarium finis rationabilis " factus non fuerit." It then goes on to refer to the Visitor, and to the prevention of discord in the College. {Mr. Vaughan.) Is not that only discord between himself and the Fellows. 969. {Sir S. Northcote.) Practically, the Provost has very con.-iderable control over the management of the school and over the Head Master ?—(T/ie Provost.) Yes. {Lord Lyttelton.) That part of the oath on page 501 refers to any discord arising in the College. It is " Si per me vel occasione mei aliqua dissentionis " materi.i, iras vel discorJiaj, in dicto collegio de " Etona (quod absit) suscitata fuerit." 970. {Lord Devon.) And if the Fellows cannot successfully mediate, then it must be referred. That is merely to show that the Fellows have a right of mediation in certain cases. 971. {Mr. Vaughan.) " And if necessary, they are to be a check upon the Provost" ? — Yes. {Mr. Vaughan.) No statute is quoted ? 972. {Mr. Thompson.) In case of rebellion or disobedience of the Fellows, he would, I imagine, have power at common law independent of any statute, would he not ? — {Mr. Dupuis.) I should think so. 973. Independently of any statutable law ? — I ' should think so. 974. {Lord Lyttelton.) In statute 13 v/hieh relates to the duty of the bursars, there is this passage : " Nolentes quod dicti bursarii, aut quivis alius, de " residua parte receptorum dictorum, sou de majoribus " uegotiis dicti Kegalis collegii de Etona, aut aliis " solutiouibus, misis, et expensis circa hujusmodi " majora negotia facienda, se quomodolibet iutro- " mittant, sine consensu, discretione, dispositione, " consilio, et avisamento pra^positi, vice-proepositi, et " majoris partis sociorura nostri Regalis Collegii " praidicti." That is a very large power. — Yes. 975. {3Ir. Thompson.) If there had been no mention of the duties of the Fellows in the statutes, the mere fact of the property being vested in them conjointly with the Provost would be important. Let me ask whether there are not nearly as many statut- able offices tenable only by Fellows as there are fellowships ? — Yes. 976. There are five or si.x ? — There is only one, a junior Fellow, who has no office. There were 10 Fellows originally, and the statutes mention 10, but the number has been reduced to seven. 977. {A Commissioner.) The Fellows were neces- sary to fill the other offices in the College, which had been appointed by the Founder. One of their duties was to do that, was it not ? — Yes. 978. {Mr. Vaughan.) In addition to those duties which have been pointed out, and which are inciden- tally scattered throughout the statutes, is there any distinctly prescribed code of duties by the Provost to the Fellows, as there is to all the other great offices of the College?— {The Provost.) Irrespective of their office ? 979. Yes ? — I do not recollect. 980. {Lord L.ytleUon.) Are jou aware whether any technical meaning is attached to the words »m/o»a negotia ? — No. {Mr. Vaughan.) It struck me to mean law busi- ness. I believe there is a positive definition of those words given in one place by the Founder when describing what the Provost cannot do by his own authority aloue. 981. {Lord Lyttelton.) Are the College aware of any restriction in those words ? — No. 982. Have the College acted upon that ? — The 33rd statute provides that the Provost is to ask the consent of the Fellows in the more serious business of the College. {3Ir. Dupuis.) I think it must be the 11th statute, which is : " In quibus soeii presby teri, capellaui, " cleriei, scliolares, et alii luinistri obedire debeut " proeposito." {The Provost.) It is the 33rd statute, at page 570. That statute is as follows : " Item, sta- " tuinius, ordinamus, et volumus, quod in majoribus " collegii nostri uegotiis disponendis, videlicet, iu " tradititmibus finnarum, benefieiorum ecclesiastico- " rum, et maneriorum, prajsentationibusque ad bene- " ficia, quorum advocationes vel jus patronatus ipsi " obtineut, in posteruinve obtinebunt, causis, contro- " versiis, placitis, seu litibus ipsuni collegium cou- " ceruentibus aggredi^udis seu inchoandis, ac aliis " consiinilibus, omues et singuli socii presbyteri dicti " regalis collegii, tempore quo hujusmodi negotia " pro utilitate ejusdem nostri collegii imminent dis- " ponenda, in dicto collegio praisentes, ad vocationem " et premonitionem dicti praipositi in ecclesiam, " aulam, seu alium locum infra dictum regale coUe- " gium competentem, insimul convoceiitur ad com- " muniter tractandum et deliberandum super hujus- " modi uegotiis immineutibus ; et quod in et super " prasmissis cominuuiter, vel per prajpositum et ma- " jorem partem ipsorum, deliberatum fuerit et con- " sensum, roboris habeat firmitatem. Ordinatio " auteiii sive dispositio in et super pra?missis alio '• inodo liabita sive facta, pro nullo peuitus habeatur." {Mr. Vaughan.) That is the passage I referred to ; there it is distinctly stated, but it has not been quoted here. 983. {Mr. Thompson.) Without some such pro- vision as that the power of the Provost ^yould be un- limited, would it not ? — Yes. 984. And would be perfectly irresponsible ? — Yes. 985. {Sir S. Korthcote.) I want to know gene- rally how far the Fellows are a check upon the Provost in the management of the school. The Provost has a very considerable voice in the direction of the school, and he is assisted by a body of Fellows who, practically, have all been assistant masters, or most of them, in the school ; how far are they entitled to control or influence the Provost's decision in matters aifecting the school ? {The Provost.) I should think not at all in matters affecting the school. {Mr. Dupuis.) The government of the school rests between the Provost and the Head Master, and the Fellows' assent or dissent is never asked. 986. Not with regard to leasing the houses ? — That they must have a voice in. 987. That is a matter that materially aftects the management of the school, is it not ? — Yes ; but that is a duty which comes under the management of the property of the College. 988. I only want to bring out how far the Fellows do really influence the well-being and condition of the school as well as the management of the property. Such a question as the allotment of houses does afl'ect the working of the school ? % {The Provost.) I do not think that is a question that ever comes before the Provost. {Mr. Dupuis.) It must come before both. 989. Suppose that a house happens to be vacant, who decides who is to have it ? — That entirely de- pends upon whose house it is. 990. But I would suppose that it was one of the College houses ; who would decide in case one of the assistant masters who now rents a house was to resign ; what would become of the house ? — ( The 1 PUBLIC SCHOOLS COMMISSION: — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 35 Provost.) Probalily some one would have made an arrangement with him for succeeding long before. 991. Would not the consent of the College be necessary ? — Yes. 992. What do you mean by the consent of the College ? — The Provost and Fellows. 993. And would it lie with them to say, "This " house shall not go to the perscm who wishes for it, " but to somebody else ?" (Mr. Dupuis.) They might have such a power, and might exercise it. ( T/ie Provost.} I do not recollect that such a thing has ever happened. 994. Sujipose that any one of the masters, Mr. Durnford, for instance, was about to leave, is his house College projjerty ?• — -Yes. 995. Suppose that Mr. Durnford was going to leave, and had made arrangements with a dame to succeed him and take the house ? — {Mr. Dupuis.) That would not be permitted. 996. Would you prevent such an arrangement being carried out? — Yes ; the College would interpose and prevent him directly. 997. And the College, in that case, would be the Provost and Fellows ? — Yes. 998. Then in matters of that sort the Fellows would exercise an influence in the management of the scliool ? — Yes, indirectly, they would. 999. (Lord Clarendon.) Suppose that Mr. Durn- ford had made an arrangement, a satisfactory pecu- niary arrangement for himself, with some other master or individual whom the Provost or the Head blaster did not think was a good man to have in charge of a boarding house, what course would the Provost and Fellows take?— {The Provost.) I take it that the Head Master would interfere and represent the matter to the Provost ; I should have taken that course when I was Head Master. 1000. Knowing that he might be objected to might he not offer very advantageous pecuniary terms to the out-going master ? — I never heard of such a case. 1001. But such a case might easily occur ? — No doubt it is a possible case. 1002. And in such a case, if the Provost and Fellows thought it would prove disadvantageous, they could interfere and sujiport the Head Master ? ^Yes. 1003. {Lord Lyttelton.) The Provost by himself exercises considerable influence over the management' of the whole school. When you say that you make no distinction between the College and the school ? —No. 1004. The Fellows have little or nothing to do with the management of'the school ? — Yes. 1005. In that also you make no distinction between the College and the school ?■ — The Fellows have nothing to do with the regulation of the affairs of the College as a school. 1006. The Provost alone has power of control over the affairs of the school, as distinct from matters of property, and the Fellows have nothing to do with them ? — Yes. 1007. Have the Fellows anything more to do with the studies and general management of the foundation boys, than they have to with those of the oppidans ? — No, there is no distinction whatever. {Mr. Di/puis.) If a great delinquency occurred, a scholar would be punished by the joint authority of the Provost and Fellows. He would be what we call convened. (The Provost.) Suppose that a boy high in the school were to commit a serious offence, the ques- tion would be whether it was not our duty to dis- miss him. In such a case, the matter would be brought before the College. A meeting of the Fellows then in residence would be called, before whom the boy would be brought, and the punish- ment to be inflicted decided upon. A case of that description occurred within my own mastership. 1008. The Provost would not consider himself justified in expelling a boy from college ? — {Mr. Ditpiiis.) No. But the Head Master would an op- pidan. 1009. Is there no other point in the management of the school, upon which the Fellows take part ? — ( T/ie Provost.) No, I think not. 1010. (Sir S. Xorthcotc.) They take part in the election of the Head Master, do they not ? — Y'es. 1011. And of the under master ? — Yes. 1012. But not of the assistant masters? — They have nothing to do with that. 1013. (Lord Devon.) Has the Provost a secoud vote ? — (Mr. Dupuis.) No. 1014. Suppose that the numbers were equal ; that four went one way and four another, then there would be a dead lock. — There is no provision in the statutes for such a ease. {Mr. Vaughan.) Do you think that in a case such as that which you have mentioned, namely, the ex- pulsion of a bo}' from school, so large a machinery is necessarj' for the interests of the school, and for securing that justice should be done to individual boys. (The Provost.) It is not necessary that the boj- should be exiiclled. He may be subjected to a severe punishment without being absolutely expelled. (Mr. Dupuis.) He may be brought before the College, not oidy for expulsion, but lor any offence involving a verj' grave punishment. 1015. Do you consider that a machinery of that sort is the most efficient mode that can be devised for dealing with such cases as do not involve expulsion ? — {T/if Provost.) It becomes a much more grave matter to the boy himself when brought before us in that way. {Air. Dupuis.) By machinery, I i)resume that you mean the Provost and Fellows ? lOlG. (Mr. Vuughan.) A meeting of the College summoned by the Head Master ? — The idea of a con- vention before the College in the minds of the boj'S is a very grave matter indeed. (The Provost.) I think such machinery is very useful. 1017. But is it not usually unnecessary, and does i( not ojicrate in some cases to prevent the speediness, the efheiency, and the vigour of the administration of the discipline of the school ? — I should not say so, judging from my own experience. 1018. (Mr. Thompson.) Would you think it right to trust the power of the expulsion of the scholars to any one person ? — No. 1019. Is not expulsion severely felt l)y the boy ? — It is a very fearful punishment. (Mr. Dupuis.) It very rarely happens. It must be a very grave case indeed to warrant it. 1020. Would it be safe to leave the power to the Head Master, or to the Provost alone ? — No ; I think not. {The Provost.) My own opinion is that a council is better. 1021. (Lord Devon.) During the time that you were Head Master in how many instances had you to bring a boy before the Provost and Fellows ? — I think only twice. 1022. And you were there in that position for 14 or 15 years ? — No, only nine. 1023. (Lord Chirendoti.) Do you know of many grave cases having been brought before the Provost and Fellows ? — I do not recollect many. {3Ir. Dupuis.) Throughout the whole of my know- ledge of Eton, from a boy up to the present time, I only recollect six or seven. {The Provost.) It is usually confined to the cases of boys high in the school. 1024. {Lord Lyttelton.) Is it in the discretion of the Head Master, or of the Provost, whether the case is of sufl?icient gravity to render a College meeting desirable ? — If the Head Master went to the Provost and desired a College meeting to be called, the Provost would at once comply with his request. E 2 ETON. Sev. C. O. Good/ord. Rev. G. J. Dupuis. Jiev.J. Wilder. T. Batchctdor, Esq. 5 July 1862. 36 PUBLIC SCHOOLS COSIMISSION : — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. ETON. Itei: C. O. Oml/nrd. Her. G. J. Dupiiis. liei: J. Wilder. T. Jinlrliehlor, Esq. 5 July ISfi2. 100.5. Does it rest with the Head Master to take cojrnrzauce of sucli a case ?— It did in tlie only case to whicli I refer. 102lj. Bcinp a grave case you requested tliat it should be considered in a College meeting ?— Yes. 1027. (.S'(> *'. Northcole.) In a case where it was thought right to turn a boy down, so that he would lose Ills election, would that be a case which would have to go before a College meeting ? — Yes. 102?,. {T.oril Clarenrlon.) Do you not think that in such "a case as thai the decision of the Head Master and Provost would be quite sufHcient. Would it not be so far satisfactory to the boy and to his parents as to induce a belief that the punishment was just? — I think the present mode carries more weight with it. 1029. {Mr. Thompson.) Do you remember any instance of a colleger having been actually expelled ? — {Mr. D II puis.) Yes. 10.30. {Mr. ]',iiir/hnii.) I understand you to say, Dr. Goodford, that the Head Master himself usually brings the case under the notice of the Provost and Fellows. Has there ever been an instance of a boy ajipealing from the Head Master to the Provost and YcWows^— {The Provost.) I do not recollect a case of that sort. 1031. {Lord Clarendon.) You s.ty on page 26 of the printed answers, that the emoluments of each Fellow is given at the end of the paper. Docs the total of 1,876/. represent the total amount of the Provost's emoluments ? — {Mr. Di/pi/is.) Yes, n])on an average of 20 years. The only variable portion of it is the iliies. 1032. Are the others yearly payments ? — Yes. 1033. Which do not vary ? — No. 1034. And do the other sums give the whole of the sums received by the ditierent officers whose names arc mentioned ? — ^Yes ; it includes the remunerationes stipend, allowance for coals, &c., and share of re- deemed land tax. 1035. What is that? — {Mr. Batcheldor.) A portion of the estates were sold under the Land Tax Ee- deraption Act. 1036. Sold under tlie Land Tax Redemption Act ? {Mr. Diipuis.) Yes ; considerable portions were very unwisely sold. 1037. When ?— About the .year 1800, under the celebrated scheme of Mr. Pitt. When the Corporation sold their available property for a fixed money pay- ment. In this instance the estates sold were worth about five times what they sold for. That produced 1,200/. a year, or some such sum, and the proportion of the Provost and Fellows was 686/. 19.?. That is paid to lliem, and the rest is paid to Donius. 1038. How w.as the amount settled ? — {Mr. Batchel- dor.) They purchased that amount of land tax charged on their other estates, so it is paid by the tenants. 1039. {Lord T^yttclton.) Is this the receipt of actuiil money ? — Yes. 1040. Is it .accurately described as "share of re- " deemed laud tax." Is that a full description of it ? —Yes. 1041. {L^ord Devon.) It is the share of that which would have been otherwise paid as land t.ax ? Yes ; it is a sh.are of redeemed land tax, payable out of the estates of the College. 1042. {Lord Lyttelton.) But it is paid by the tenants ? — Yes. 1043. Then it is rent ?— That is what it is. 1044. {Mr. Thompson.) What was Mr. Pitt's object ? — To raise money. It gave him a large sum of money. 1 045. What was the motive of the Corporation in selling the estates ? — They thought they wou^d be able to get a certain amount of money without in- curring any expense in management. 1046. {Lord Clarendon.) Is the Head Master a Fellow ?— (il/r. Diipnis.) No. The present Head Master was a Fellow, and was elected from his fellow- shi)) to be Head Master. 1047. Why is he put down here? — lie has a statutable stipend of 215/. a year as Head Master. 1048. {L.ord Devon.) A junior Fellow has no special duties ? — He has no office besides his fellow- shi|). Tlie others are Provost, vice-provost, senior bursar, junior burs.ar, librarian, pra3centor, and sacrist. 1049. {L^ord Clarendon.) How are the Conducts appointed ? — By the Provost. Their salaries are 120/. a year, and they have certain allowances of beer and bread — old allowances, not of great value — besides the fees of the chapel. One has a house besides. 1050. {Lord I^i/ttelton.) Is it very long since they succeeded the statutable officers called chaplains ? — I do not know. {77ie Provost.) There were only two Conducts formerly ; but they have been increased of late years. The conducts do not reside in college now. 1051. The College would, perhaps, consider that an additional advantage conferred upon the scholars of late years beyond the provisions of the statutes ? — Yes ; the present master in college is not a Conduct. 1052. He may or may not be ? — Yes. 1053. {Lord Devon.) Are the other two Conducts masters, or either of them ? — No, they are not. 1054. Does it often occur that they are ? — Neither of the three is. 1055. One was formerly ? — Yes. 1056. Does it often happen that the Conducts are assistant masters? — Never; the two offices would be inconsistent. He could not be in school and in chapel both at 3 o'clock. 1057. Are they dames ? — No. 1058. {Sir S. Northcote.) Are they always in priest's orders ?- — No. {Mr. Diipuis.) One at the present moment is not. 1059. They have the whole conduct of the services now, have they not ? — ( The Provost.) Yes ; the three between them. , 1060. Do you think it is undesirable that they should not be in priest's orders ? — It is. He will be ordained priest shortly. 1061. {I\lr. Vaiif/han.) Is the parish a large one in which their parochial duties are performed ? — It consists of one street, and an outlying district. 1062. Is that large ?— No, it is not. 1063. Then it may be said to be a small parish ? — Yes, it is a small parish. It has an acreage of about 800 acres, but the population is upwards of 2,000. {Lord Devon-) Is that independent of the College ? — I do not think the .actual inhabitants .amount to 2,000 ; say, 1,500. 1064. But the 2,000 does not include the boys ?— No. 1065. {Mr. Vaughan.) Have the Conducts much time at their disposal for parochial duties ? — They have nothing else to do. 1066. Owing to the small extent of the parish, and the number of souls, and the slight degree of time the Conducts are occupied in .any other way, does much of the parochial duty fall upon the Provost? — Not much lieyond the superintendence. 1067. {Lord Devon.) Do the Conducts become pri- vate tutors ? — Neither of those we have at present are, but some, I think, have been. 1068. {Lord L^yttelton.) They may be ?— Yes. 1069. {Mr. Vaughan.) Do they le.ave any strictly parochi.al duty for the Provost to perform ? — None, unless he undertakes it voluntarily. 1070. {L^ord Clarendon.) The Conducts read in the College chapel every day ? — Yes, one or the other. 1071. Do not the statutes contemplate that the choristers should be treated in every respect as the scholars ?, — Not quite the same, because they are to be elected scholars. 1072. {Lord Lyttelton.) They are to have a pre- ference ? — Yes. 1073. {Mr. Vaughan.) With regard to the education " provided for them under the statutes, is it the same as that of the scholars ? — I do not recollect whether there is any distinction. {Mr. Dupuis.) It was pretty much the same in early times. PUBLIC SCHOOLS COMMISSION: — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 37 1074. {Lord Clarendon.) Do uot the Head and lower masters undertake and swear to educate them the same as the scholars ? — No ; the i/istruclvr chorislarum taught them (Stat. 10), unless they learnt Latiu. 107o. {Lord Lytlelton.) A Condiiot was called capcUaiuis; that was the ancient office of chaplain ? Yes. hired chaplains. 107G. That would be the statutable office ? — Yes. 1077. {Lord Clarendon.) And he is, by statute 10, to have o/., which is placing his emolument at about two-thirds of that of a Fellow ? — No. 1078. (.'//•. Vaughan.) What is the nature of the instruction imparted to the choristers at the choristers' school ? — It is a commercial education. 1079. Do they learn Latin ?— They learn the ele- ments of Latin. They do not go very far into it. 1080. By what class of teachers is the instruction imparled ? — A schoolmaster, who is an extra member of the choir. {Mr. Batchcldor.) I believe he produces a com- petent certilicate from some public school, and is an able man. 1081. {Lord Clarendon.) Is there any examination of the school liy anybody ? — -The Dean undertakes it. {Mr. Di/jiuis.) They reside in Windsor, and are more attached to Windsor than to us. 1082. The original number of the Fellows was fixed in the statutes at 10. Do you consider that you have power to increase the number to 10 if the funds of the College ■would allow of that being done ? — Y'es, I think so. 1083. If the funds would allow yon, it is comi)etent for you to do it ? — Y'es. 1084. Would you prefer increasing the number of the scholars ? ( riic Provost.) Y'es, I should. {Mr. Diipuis.) I think that would be much more useful. I should see no harm in having ten Fellows at Eton. There would be more rewards for the masters, if they are to be called rewards. lOSo. Y'ou say on page 27, "The government of " the scholars and the school in general is vested in " the Head Master, sulject to the authority of the ' Provost, who is bound to enforce the observance " of the statutes in such points as he thinks neces- " sary." Does not that rather imply the possession of a discretionary power? — What is your notion of that. Dr. Goodford, that "he is to enforce the obser- " vance of the statutes in such points as he think " necessary." ( 7'Ac Provost.) He is to enforce the statutes where it is possible to enforce them, and I think that a discretion to omit them (ilso exists. 1086. Do you consider yourself to be the judge of the points in which it may be necessary to enforce or to relax the statutes ? — No. As soon as I was elected Provost I did feel strongly that there were certain points upon which it would be impossible to enforce them, and I wrote to the visitor to ascertain from him how far he considered me bound to enforce the statutes where reasonalde usage had rendered the enforcement either difficult or impossible, and his re]dy was that I was not bound to enforce things which reasonable usage had dropped, until called upon to do so by competent authority. 1087. {Mr. Vaughan.) Reasonable usage ? — I think those are the words. 1088. {Lord L^i/ltctlon.) Are you aware that the statutes liiemselves distinctly forbid desuetude to be pleaded as a ground of infraction ? — Yes. 1089. Would it not be impossible to prevent, in a voluminous body of staiutes like this, some of them becoming nugatory to some extent by the lapse of time ? — 1 think so. The liishop particularly referred me to the dcclaratlones correctiones et reformatioties at the end of the statutes. 1090. Practically there are nnmy of these statutes which it is imiiossible to observe ? — {Mr. Ditpiiis.) Quite impossible. 1091. .Subject to that, is there any power of neglecting them ? — {The Prorost.) No. 1092. Wherever the statutes can be enforced, you consider yourself bound to enforce them ? — Y'es. 1093. Louder these statutes the Provost has a general power of seeing to the welfare of the whole establishment ? — Y'es. 1091. {Mr. Vaughan.) Bo the statutes at all define in what ca.ses of moral delinquency the foundation scholars are to be brought belbre the Provost and Fellows ? — I think not. 1095. {Lord LyitcUnn.) You say, " There are cer- " tain statutes regulating thediscipline of the founda- " tion scholars, afieeting their number, quality, mode " of election, their obedience to the Provost, their " behaviour in hall and in church, and their dress." Do we understand that those are observed ? — Y'es. 1096. {Mr. Vaughan.) When you say, " Many of " them have been discontinued by reason of the " change of times and circumstances since the Refor- " matiou ;" do you confine the answer solely to religious changes ? — {Mr. Dupuis.) Mainly to reli- gious changes. 1097. Do you moan tliat the statutes which have been discontinued by reason of the change of times and circumstances since the Reformation, are all sta- t\ites that are in some waj' connected with the change of religion. The change of worship, and so on ? — ( The Provost.) I cannot answer that question. 1098. I merely wished to know if your answer applied to more than religions points ? — I imagine that was the intention of the answerers. (}[r. Diipuis.) It mainly referred to religious .points. 1099. {L^ord Lytlelton.) Pnit clearly not to all, because there are other points which have ceased to be enforced which bad no connexion with religion ? — {The Provost.) I think so. 1 100. {Lord Clarendon.) Can yon jioint out which of the statutes are still in force, and which have been abrogated from one circumstance or another ? Will j'ou send in a written statement showing which have ceased to be enforced and which arc still observed ? — I will, if you consider it necessarj'. 1101. {Lord Devon.) What is meant by the note at the foot of page 25, " And the corrections of " statutes issued al)out 10 years after the founda- " tion ? " {Lord Lytlelton.) You will find that at the end of the statutes. ETON. Rcu. C. O. Guoil/orJ. Jiiv. Cr. J. Dupuis. llev. J. Wilder. T. Balcheldor J July 1 SG2. Adjourned till Mond.ay the 7th instant. E3 38 PUBLIC SCHOOLS COMMISSION :— MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. ETON. Victoria Street, 7th July 1862. Urn. C. O. Good/onl. Hev. G. J. Ditpitis. Jtev. J. Wililer. T. BaUhelilur, Esq. 7 Julv 1862. PRESENT : Earl of Clarendon. Earl of Devon. Lord Lyttelton. Sir Stafford Northcote. Rev. W. H. Thompson. H. Halford Vaughan, Esq. The earl OF CLARENDON in the Chair. The Rev. C. O. Goodford, D.D., the Rev. G. J. Dupdis, M.A., T. Batcheldor, Esq., and the Rev. J. Wilder examiiietl. and Antiquity of Cambridge, by Richard Parker, 8vo., p. 94, &c. ; Hist. Coll. Eton., vol. ii. p. 291, in British Museum. This copy of the Statutes of 1102. (Lord Clareiidoii.) You say, Dr. Goodford, on No. 6, pnge 27 : '• The original copy of the statutes " is in possession of the college. We beg to refer " the Commissioners to Heywood's copy, which we " have reason to believe is mainly correct." When you say "mainly correct," have you any reason to doubt the accuracy of any part of the copy ? — {The Provost.) I should say that it is accurate in every- thing except misprints, and, perhaps, the occasional omission of a word. There is nothing so inaccurate in it as to alter the character of the statutes. 1 103. Have you compared the Liber originalis with the copy of the statutes furnished to the Commission ? No ; I compared it with one which had been com- pared with it, one that had been tested by Dr. Good- all, and which had marginal annotations where there had been any iuaccurac}'. {Mr. Dtipiiis.) T assisted Dr. Goodford in that exa- mination, but I did not go right through with it. {T/ie Provost.) Allow me to add that there are two statutes omitted. {Mr. Dupids.) Yes ; but wherever we examined a statute, and compared it, we found both copies per- fectly identical. ( The Provost.) The statutes are, I think, the 30th and 31st. I thought it necessary, however, to re.ad them. They are : " 30. Of the prayers, orisons, and " other services, to be celebrated daily by the Provost " and Fellows for life (who are priests), chaplains, " clerks, scholars, and choristers. 31. Of the mode " of saying masses, matins, and other canonical prayers " in the collegiate church ; and of the order of stand- " ing in the choir of the said church." These two I omitted. {Mr. Diipuis.) With regard to the authenticity of Mr. rie3'wood's copy, when I went down to the Bishop of Lincoln, on the occasion of the institution of the late Provost, there was no real copy of the statutes except th.nt book. The Bishop of Lincoln, Dr. Kaye, accepted that book as sufficiently true and accurate on which to proceed to institute the Provost. I think that is a strong argument that the book itself is correct. 1 104. Have you i-ead this note upon page 33 of the preface : " Some interesting details with respect to " the edition of the Eton Statutes, which was thus " made public, are given at the conclusion of the " talile of contents, by the Rev. Roger Huggett, M.A., " the original proprietor of the copy, in the follow- " ing note : ' By a letter from Thomas Baker, B.D., " ' ejected fellow of St. John's College, in Cambridge, " ' to Dr. Richard Rawlinson, dated Cambridge, 12th " ' September" 1728, it appears that a copy of the " ' Eton College Statutes had been heretofore in the " ' library of St. John's College ; _ that they had been " ' lent out by Dr. Gower to Dr.' Roderick (Provost " ' of King's College) ; and that, as they were not in " ' their proper box, nor anywhere in the Treasury, " ' he fears they never were returned. What he " ' observes of them is, " I very well remember they " ' " were a blurred interlined copy and could be of " ' " little use." So he thought. See Baker's letters " ' to Dr. Richard Kawlinson, inter MSS. R.R, in " ' Bibl. Bodl. Oxon. That this body of the Eton " ' Statutes (and also of King's College) were drawn '• ' up by William Wainflete, master of the grammar " ' school there, see Hist. Coll. Eton MSS., vol. iv. " ' p. 9, in British Museum. Sec also the History " ' Eton, together with that other copy which is in- " ' tended to be placed in the Bodleian Library, is " ' collated with the vice-provost's copy, the which " ' is said to have been collated with the original. " ' As to this copy, it has, in every part, where there " ' was seemingly any difficulty occurred, been care- " ' fully collated, and which may, therefore, be said, " ' with the greatest probal.)ility, to be the most per- " ' feet copy now extant either in or out of college. " ' R.H.' It is here to be remarked that the several " words, lines, and pages, scratched through or " crossed over, with a pen (as they are here done " with a pen or pencil), are yet all of the ori- " ginal statutes, being so marked in the vice- " provost's statute book (the book generally used " in college business) ; and that the lines running " down by the margins thereof, included in crotchets " [ ], interlined, by way of additio7i (as in the " Juramentum Praspositi), or marked otherwise, are " seemingly so noted in order for omissions in such " parts of statute which run counter to the notions " of these temporising men, who hereby from time " to time have shown the little regard they had, or " may now have, to the sacredness of repeated " oaths, to the direful imprecations of your pious " founder, or to the true literal sense and meaning " of any one of his statutes, which are. by these vile " methods, thus perverted (and by clerical men) to " purposes quite contrary to his plain intentions, " while 3'et his intentio/is are declared to be equally " binding with his most express injunctions." Have you any observations to make upon that statement ? — {The Provost.) I have never seen any copy so interlined and so blurred. The only copy I have seen, and which is used in the public business of our college, is perfectly clean. If I had thought it neces- sary, I should have brought it here. 1 105. {L^ord Lyttelton.) Is that the Liber originalis ? — No ; it is a fair written copy. TheZ,t6er originalis is extremely difficult to read. 1106. But tha Liber originalis is at Eton, is it not ? — Yes. 1107. Do you'knotv when the other copy was made ? — I do not. 1108. Has it a look of antiquity about it ? — Yes, it is an old copy. There is also a copy called the Vice- Provost's copy, which I intended to bring up when I brought the copy the Commissioners now have before them ; but I found that that also was extremely difficult to read, almost as difficult as the original copy. There are, however, no marks of interlineation or abbreviation in it. {3Ir. Dupuis.) I have sent up one copy of the statutes to the Commissioners. 1109. {Lord Clarendon.) There are no abbrevia- tions or interlineations in that ? — I never saw any. 1110. I think it must be the copy in the British Museum that is interlined, as I find Sir Henry Ellis's name mentioned in connexion with it ? {The Provost.) I suppose it must be. nil. {Sir S. Northcote.) Can you tell us that the copy we have got is an accurate one ? — I have no doubt it is. 1112. {Lord Clarendon.) In the Appendix to the Reports of the Select Committee of the House of PUBLIC SCHOOLS COMMISSION : — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 39 Commons, on the education of the lower oriU'v.-;, Lord Brougham, who was Cli.iirnian of the Committee, luis prefixed the following notice to the connnencenu'iit of the Eton Statutes : — " The copy of these statutes has " been most carefully revised, and coniijared witli " Huggctt's manuscript in the British Museum, " whereof it may be esteemed a perfect transcript, " preserving the abhreviatioiis, erasures, marks, fic. •' The Committee is inclcbted for this care to ISIr. « (now Sir Henry) Ellis of that house. II B." ?— Ever since I have been Head Master there has always been a copy of the statutes on the talile during the elec- tion of scholars, and speaking for the last nine years, I can say that I have never noticed any interlineation, abbreviation, erasure, or anything of the sort. 1113. How did Iluggctt obtain his copy of tlie statutes? — {Mr. Dupitis.) I believe he stole it. I have always heard so. 1114. And how was it replaced ? — Perhaps I had better say he borrowed it, and when it was in his possession transcribed it, and by that moans obtained the copy which is now in the British Museum, and which is the one he said he got from the college. 1115. He states that he was 25 years Conduct ? — Yes. 1116. And he says that he did not see the statutes during almost the whole of that time, until at last he obtained access to tlicni, and tlieii he coi)icd them ? — {Mr. Dupuis.) That is the belief, but there is no per- son now living who can give evidence upon the point. 1117. Is the coi)y tiiat was alw.iys in the college the copy from which Iluggctt took his transcript ? — So he says. 1118. (Lord Lyltelton.) When didHuggett live ? (Mr. Dupuis.) About 100 years ago. 1119. {Mr. I'auyltaii.) Have you stated what is the date of that copy? — (The Provost.) I do not know the date, but from the character of the writing, I should say it is very old. I cannot state the date, however. 1120. Is it a clean copy ? — Yes ; written on vellum. 1121. It bears no m^irks of having been tampered with or altered ? — No. {3fr. Dupuis.) I should very much like the Commission to see our present statutes, in order that they may be convinced that nothing of tliat sort is going on now. It would be very painful to us if any imputation of that sort remained unanswered, or was in any way believed. 1122. (Lord Clareudon.) Are you awiU'C that there is any copy in existence with erasures or alibrevia- tions ? ( The Provost.) No. (Mr. Dupuis.) Nor am I. {The Provost.) Nor have 1 heard of such a thing, except in what you have just read. 1123. {Lord Clarendon.) It also appeared in Mr. Brougham's Commission. {Mr. Dupuis.) Yes, that is the only place in which I have heard of it before. 1124. Then it is evident that the copy referred to, is the one in the British Museum ? — I should say so. 1 125. Which is the copy deposited there by Huggett himself ? — Yes. 1126. He puts iu those interlineations, I believe ? — I do not think that he is much to be depended upon. I believe he insinuates that in his days all sorts of improper things were done, and that many things were omitted which ought to have been done. Of course, it is not for us to say what might have been done 100 years ago. 1126a. {Lord Clarendon.) I take it for granted from what you say, that you have no cognizance of any blurred or altered copy at Eton ? — No ; certainly not. 11266. And the Z?icr orijriwa/ji has no blurring or interlineation ? — None ; I may add, however, that there have been several copies made of the statutes at Eton. There have been four or five copies at different periods. 1127. {Mr. Vaughan.) Has the copy to which yon have referred ever been put into the hands of any one acquainted with the dates of manuscripts, and wIk) can form an opinion of the date from the hand- writing itself ? ( The Provost.) I cannot say tnat it has. 1128. {Lord Lyttelton.) I do not understand from your statement tiiat the LiOer originalis has been col- lated by yourself ? — No ; by Dr. Goodall. {Mr. Dupuis.) Yes, and it has been done by him very carefully. {The Provost.) I collated his collation with tliu copy I biought up here. 1129. {LordChirendon.) You say in No. 7. " We are " not aware of any power of altering or amending the " statutes, on the contrary we are expressly forbidden " to consent to the alteration of them by statute 61., " but the Dcclardtioncs, corrcctiones, reformationes, " appended by tlic founder to the statutes expressly " allow the \ isitor, the Provost and Fellows exten- " sive dispensing powers under certain circum- ' stances." Will you refer to the passage and read it ? — It is at page 625 of the statutes. 1130. Read what it is you consider gives those dis- pensations ; — " Quoniam diversa statuta et ordina- " tiones per dictum fundatorem edita, cum propter " decassum ct ablatiouem possessionum et redditnum " dicti collegii,'tum propter varia pericuhi et danina " quiu ]iossunt dicto coUegio et personis ejusdem veii- " similiter evenire, uon possunt ab eisdein commode " observari, declaramus et volunms, quod jurati ob- " servalionem statutorum et ordinal ionnni dicti col- " legii, et in eisdem, aut eorum aliquo, delinquentes, " noa rcatum aut pcenam perjurii incurraiit quoquo ■' modo." They are not to incur the guilt or tho punishment. 1131. {Lord Lyttelton.) But go on a little furtlier. — " Sed pfcna perjurii ubicumque e.x dictis statutis ■' incurrenda, si de perjurio alicujus socii, magistri " informatoris, vel capellaui aga(ur, in pocnam per " dicti collegii pra>positum et majorem partem socio- " rum arbifrandam ; si vero de perjurio agatur dicti " propositi, in poenam doxnini episcopi Lincolniensis " qui pro tempore fuerit infligendam arbitrio con- " vertalur ; aliquo stafuto sou ordinatione per dictum " fundatorum in contrarium edito non obstante." 1 132. I do not understand how the last part qualifies the first ? — Instead of being i)unished as he would be for perjury, the Bislioi) of Lincoln has power to decide what punishment he shall receive. ' 1133. But could that be called a dispensation ? It seems to me that it is only a commutation of the penalty. {Mr. Thompson.) Is there not a clause in the oath t.aken by the scholars that they will either ob- serve the statutes or submit to such punishment as may bo lawfully inflicted upon them ? If there is a clause to that effect that might give us an explan.a- tion. I think myself it means that they will either observe the statutes or submit without remonstrance to any punishment the visitor m.ay inflict upon them. I know that such an interpretation is given in the university of Cambridge, which had, till recently, a number of very ridiculous statutes, which they were supposed to observe, and at the end of every term there was a form of absolution gone through. I be- lieve the Vice-Cliancellor had the power of absolving them for all breaches they may have committed in the observance of the statutes. {Lord Li/ttelton.) That would be something like the indemnity liills passed by Parliament. {Mr. Thompson.) There is certainly the power of absolution for such breaches of the statutes as may have been committed. It used to be in the oath that they would either obey the statutes or submit to the penalties, and as the penalties are iiil, it amounted to perfect freedom. I believe you had the same sort of thing at Oxford. That was the mediaeval notion, namely, that great dispensing powers should be held by the high ecclesiastics. {Mr. Vaughan.) Upon merely reading over the clause, it seems to me to be a provision iu a great E 4 ETON. Rev. C. O. Good/ord. Rev. G. J. Dupuis. Rev. J. Wilder. T. Batcheldor, Esq. 7 July 1862. 40 PUBUC SCHOOLS COMMISSION :— MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. ETt)N. liei: C. O. Gooiljord. Jler. G. J. Dupuia. liev. J. Wilihr. T. Balrhehlor. Esq. 7 Julv 18G2. iii.'ii-^iiro for ll.o slak- of the time. It s.^ys, that, •• Wli'M-t as oil aeeoiiiit of the loss ami spoliation ot " colliLre i>vo|.eitv, persons in the college and the " colleiie il!'elf are likely to be e.xiiosed to very great " ilaiigers," &c. Then in order to meet cases where it is impossible to obey tlie statutes on such accounts, it docs not sive a disiiensing power over the statutes, but provides that the case shall be submitted to the Bishop of Lincoln, who is the visitor, and who shal stale what the punisliinent is to be. (T.nrd Devon.) My impression is, that the guilt is absolutely taken away by those words. (Mr. Vtiin/haii.) Certainly, on looking at it, it appears to ine, at first sight, that it is a provision for the state of tlie times, when two parties con- vulsed the state. They felt that their property might be taken awav from them, or so seriously di- minished that they could not observe the statutes, and that they then might have force put upon them. It appears to me that this statute was iii- tcnded to meet a case of that descrijition, and that it was not intended to give a general power of dis- pensing with the statutes at all times. ( Lord Li/ttcl ton.) Does not the word " possunt " seem to bear out that view. The paragraph does not seem to have a prospective intention at all. It says, " non " possunt": " at the present time" — it would seem to mean — "on account of the diminution of the revenue " and other dangers, it cannot be observed ;" that is evidently for the present time ; and therefore they say, " We enact this statute, but if it be impossible to " observe it, then the penalty or guilt of perjury shall " not be incurred, but we will leave to some high '■ authority a dispensing power." An almost nominal punishment may be inflicted in one case at the will of the Provost and Fellows, and in another of the visitor. Does it not appear to be a very forced con- struction to construe that into a dispensing power for all time? — {The Provost.) But it goes on to say: " Domini episcopi Lincolniensis qui pro temiiore " fuerit." {3Ir. Vaiighan.) But the life of the bishop at that time must have been a more uncertain thing than the duration of the troubles, and would only meet the case of a year or two. " Cum propter decassum et abla- " tionem possessionum et redituum dicti collegii, turn " propter varia pericula et damna qure possunt dicto " collegio et personis ejusdem verisimiliter evenire " non possunt," &c., would not such causes put it out of their power by a physical difliculty to obey some of the statutes. (Lord Devon.) But there is the word "commode." It evidently does not imply jdiysical diflSeulty, because the word " commode " qualities it. {Mr. Vaitghan.) I would not pronounce an opinion upon that at once ; it might be said that " commode " before " non possunt " reduces physical impossibility to physical difficulty produced by loss, spoliation, and peril. Does it not appear from tlie date of the letters patent of Henry VI. that the powers given to the Bishop of Lincoln and the Bishop of Winchester must have been exercised by the reformationes at a moment in which the king was in great peril, and in such a condition that he could not provide any longer for the management of the college. (Mr. Vaitf/han.) Does it not appear from the event that a king, harassed from one corner of the kingdom to the other, and several times a lunatic, could not attend to the management of local matters of this sort. (Lord Li/tteUon.) In the original document he says "during his life" — he gives general powers of alteration to certain bishops during his life. If you could aflix a general prospective sense upon the third clause, it might fairly bear that construction, that the penalty of perjury was not to be incurred, and that some nominal penalty was to be substituted ; but I do not see that it gives a general prospective power of dispensation. The word "possunt" seems to go strongly against such a view. May I ask if it is held by the college to impart a dispensing power ? {The Provost.) Yes ; I wrote to the Visitor myself about it, before I took the office of Provost. 1134. {Lord Lytlelton.) You mean that it imports a "eneral dispensing power, and not merely a release from ])unishment ? ( The Provost.) Yes ; I think it does. (Lord Clarendon.) 1 understood you to say that before you took your oath jou wrote to the bishop ? (The Provost.) Yes. The effect of my letter was to inquire whether it would be reasonable, supposing certain statutes had fallen into desuetude, that I should be bound to keep them ; or whether the " Eefor- " mationeset correctiones" gave him a releasing power. I will read the answer which the bishop returned : My dear Dr. Goodfoiid, February 17, ISK. Owing to my return home, your letter has reached me only to day. 1 think that you are quite right in your view of the obligation of the Provost's oath. It is an evil incident to all old constitutions and statutes which, together with specific and minute provisions and directions, have provided no authority for varying them in accordance with altered circumstances, that a large part of them become, after the lapse of centuries, impracticable, and ha^'e to be construed by aid of customs which necessity or ex[)ediency have established. It follows that any oath to observe such statutes must he held to ajjply in foro conscient'ue to the statutes thus con- strued. The Eton statutes ha\-e the ad\'antage over most others that the qualification, as to the binding extent of the oath, which has usually to be infringed elsewhere, is in them dis- tinctly stated in the " Declarationes, &c." My own impression is that, in taking the oath you bind yourself to observe the statutes as in ])ractiee you find them in operation, till such time as they are interpreted otherwise, or altered by competent authority. Believe me, &c. (Signed) J. Lincoln. That was my visitor's answer. 1135. (Lord Lyttelton.) And you have acted upon that ? — Yes. 1136. {Mr. Thompson^) Are you aware that the Bishop of Lincoln obtained any legal advice before he gave that opinion ? — I do not know that he did ; I imagine that he did not. 1137. (Mr. Vauijhan.) Had the Bishop of Lincoln a copy of all the statutes ? — Yes. 1 138. And of the letters patent ? — Yes ; I have no doubt he had ; but I cannot say for certain. I wrote to the bishop because, on looking over the statutes and the Provost's oath, I felt there were things that it was quite impossible I could observe, and I wished to have the ground perfectly clear before I took the office upon myself. 1139. {Lord Clarendon.) I think it would be only just and fair to you that a portion of that letter should appear upon our notes. We now come to No. 8. " The visitors appointed by the statutes are the " Archbishop of Canterbury and the Bishop of Lin- " coin ; their authority is defined in statute 49. " They are required to come at certain times and see " that the statutes are obeyed, and to punish for " neglect or disobedience to them." Are you aware, Dr. Goodford, that we have had letters both from the Bishop of Oxford and the Bishop of Lincoln with respect to their rights of visitation j one from the Bishop of Oxford claiming to be visitor in conse- quence of the transfer of a portion of the diocese to the diocese of Oxford, and the other from the Bishop of Lincoln claiming still to retain the office held by the Bishop of Lincohi for so long a time. Have any communications been made to the college by either of those prelates upon the subject ? — Yes ; the Bishop of Oxford wrote to me upon the matter. 1140. As Provost ?— Yes. (Mr. Diipuis.) About a week ago. (The Provost.) A little longer than that ; perhaps a fortnight ago. He wrote to state that some of the acts of the college would be invalid unless they were confirmed by the proper visitor, and as he considered PUBLIC SCHOOLS COMMISSION : —MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 41 that he haJ a right of visitorship, he thought it neces- sary that the question should be set at rest. He added that he should himself bring the matter before the Commission, and he wished to know in what way it would be most agreeable to the college that that should be done. He requested that I would take the sense of the college upon the subject and lot him know. As there were ouly, at tlie time I received the letter, two members of the college besides myself there, 1 wrote to him to say, that I would obtain tlie general sense of the college as soon as I could, and that in the meantime I would write to the Bishop of Lincoln and let him know that a claim was to be pre- ferred. I did what I stated to the Bishop of Oxford I intended to do. I laid his letter before the whole body of Fellows, and we were unanimously of opinion, having before us the statutes constituting the IJishop of Lincoln our visitor, that we were precluded from doing anything further in the matter. We believed the Bisli'op of Lincoln to be our visitor, and we felt that we could take no further steps, so far as we were concerned. 1141. Did you know that any protest was put in, addressed to the college by the Bishop of Oxford soon after Eton College was transferred from the diocese of Lincoln to the diocese of Oxford ? — I think that some such proceeding did take place, but I do not know what it was. {Mr. Dupuis.) I was a member of the college at the time, and my recollection is this, — whether he put in a positive claim I cannot say, for I cannot remem- ber ; but the question was very much agitated some 10 or 15 years ago, and the feeling of the college was then, and ahyays has been since, that having now been for 400 years under the Bisliop of Lincoln as visitor, and being perfectly content with that arrange- ment, having also taken our oaths to obey the sta- tutes, so far as they can be obeyed, and being bound by those statutes to an allegiance to the Bishop of Lincoln, the mere transfer of the diocese from one right reverend prelate to another was not sufficient of itself to transfer our allegiance. We also strongly felt that as the Bishop of Lincoln was visitor of King's College, with which our college is closely asso- ciated, it would be most inconvenient to have one visitor for King's and another for Eton, 1 1 42. Do you think the allegiance you have sworn is to the Bishop of Lincoln personally and not as your diocesan ? — Certainly. 1143. Have you ever taken any legal opinion upon this matter ? — I do not think it has ever been argued in law. 1 144. (Lord Li/ttellon.) I thought that the college had taken Sir Richard Bethel's opinion upon that point ? ( T/ie Provost.) I recollect hearing something to that effect, but not being a member of the college at that time I cannot say. {3Ir. Dupuis.) The members of the two colleges being under one visitor is a strong reason why that arrangement should be continued. Perhaps you will allow me to add, that a special bull of the Pope was obtained by Henry VI. which transferred King's College to the diocese of Lincoln from that of Ely. If Eton were under Oxford, of course King's ought to be under Oxford too. 1145. (Lord Clarendon.) Has the Bishop of Lin- coln uniformly exercised the office of visitor ? — Yes, whenever he has been appealed to. 1146. I see that he and the Archbishop of Canter- bury are enjoined by the statutes to make periodical visitations, and it is here stated that those periodical visitations have been discontinued. Why have they been discontinued ? — (Mr. Dupuis.) I cannot teU. (The Provost.) I never remember a visitation, 1147. You never remember a visitation ? — {Mr. Dupuis.) No, I do not believe that any col- lege in either university has been visited by their visitors according to the directions of the statutes, for a very long period of years. I believe that Her. C. O. Vvodfvrd. liev. G. J. Dupuis. Esq. 7 July 1S62. according to the statute a triennial visitation ought ETON, to be made. 1148. You say in No. 12, page 28, "At present to " the Head Master is connnitted practically the man- " agement of the whole school, the special care of " the foundation scholars, as well as the appointment jj^'^ j yynder " and control of the assistant masters. In him, also, T.Balcheldoi " and the lower master, is vested the power of cor- " poral punishment, and in short the whole authority " of the executive as regards the discipline and super- " intendence of the boys. Also the examination of " boys in different parts of the school, at stated times " of 'the year." Can the Head Master do all this ? (The Provost.) Yes, I think he can. 1149. You are of opinion that there is no difficulty about the matter ? — 1 think not ; but he certainly has plenty to do. 1150. (Mr. T/iniiipson.) Do I understand you to say that he has too nmch to do ? — No ; I think not. 1151. He has only one form, I believe ? — No. 1152. (Sir S. Northcote.) And he has no private pupils and no house to manage ? — No. 1153. (Lord Lytlellon.) What is the number of boys in the Head ]Mastcr's form ? — That depends upon circumstances. Nominally he has 30 but some- times he has had as many as 34. 1154. (Mr. Vaughan.) You say that the examina- tion of the boys in different parts of the school is committed practically to the Head Master ; is that your usage ? — Yes, he sets all the papers. 1155. I presume, then, that the Head Master is very much occupied at the time the examinations take place ? — Yes. 1156. Does the extreme labour which is imposed upon him by those examinations have the effect of at all limiting the number of the examinations of the school that take place in the course of the year ? —No. 1157. (Lord Lijttelton.) It is stated here that all the school examinations are conducted by the Head Master; is that so? — Yes, I mean the upper echool. 1158. (Sir S. Northcote.) Ho has the assistance of the other tnastcrs in conducting the examination ? — Yes. 1159. (Mr. Vmighan.) I only want to know if the fact that the examinations are required to be con- ducted by the Head Master has the otlVct of limiting the number of examinations of each boy in the course of -the year ? — I think not. 1160. (Lord Clarendon.) You go on to say; •' Being amenable by statute to the control of the " Provost he can make no appointment or alteration " without his sanction. This sanction, however, as a " rule, is readily given to any changes proposed and " desired by the Head Master, which after due con- " sideration appear likely to prove beneficial. We " believe this check upon the Head Master to be " invaluable, if not necessary to the permanent in- " terests of the school. Though at times it may be " thought to impede rather than to facilitate progress, " it is" calculated on the other hand to prevent ill " di"-ested and inexi)edicnt alterations, and thus to " save the school from the danger of being dependent " for the time being upon the Head Master alone. " Practically, it has been found to maintain a steady " course of development and gradual improvement, " according to the circumstances and requirements of " each succeeding age." Will you tell us. Dr. Good- ford, what were the actual relations that existed between the Provost and Fellows and yourself and the Head Master ? — The power of the Fellows resident only comes into operation as controlling the school in the absence of the Provost. If the Provost were away the superior authority would be the vice- provost, or a Fellow in residence, so that the Fellows, except in the absence of the Provost, would have no control at .all. 1161. What control is exercised in reference to the general administration of the school ? — No master of 42 Ptn3LIC SCHOOLS COMMISSION : —MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. ETON. 11,. C. O. Goodfurd. Rev. fi. J. Dnpiiis. Itev. ./. Wilder. T. BiitchelJor, Esq. 7 .Tilly ISG2. any kind is appointed without the Provost's sanction. No holiday or half-holiday would be given, or any alteration of the school hours would be made without the Provost's sanction. 1162. Uo you consider that this interference — or or this exoicise of power on tlie part of the Provost was useful to you at the time you were Head Master ? —The Provost in my time was a man of very great experience and could always give me sound advice. 1163. But how would it 1)6 supposing a man of uo cxiK'rience were a;ipointed Provost ? — In such a case, I should think the 'iutcrference might become objec- tionable. 1164. Should you say that during the time you were Head Master you would not have been able to conduct the school as satisfactorily as you did if you had been without the assistance of the Provost ? — It is very difficult to s.ay that. I think I should have done some things which the Provost did not approve of ; but what tiie result might have been, of course, I cannot sav. 1165. bid the Provost often interfere with your intentions ? — Not very often. 1166. But occasionally he did ? — Yes. 1167. He interfered in matters which you thought of importance ? — In matters in which, if I had been left to myself I might have acted differently. 1168. And did you think that having been obliged to defer to the Provost's authority was not of advantage to the interests of the school ? — I might have thought so at the time, but I am not prepared to say what the result would have been if a different course had been pursued. 1 169. I will read a short passage from the evidence of Mr. Paul, at page 54. He says : " The grand " reason why Eton has ever come in a measure short " of what is required by England of a school in so high " a position and possessing so great a name, is the fact " that the working and the governing body are not " one and the same. The workers, — the head, lower, " and assistant masters, — are engaged in actual life, " facing actual difficulties. The governors, — the Pro- " vost and Fellows, — are men who are resting from their " work, deeply imbued with the traditions of the past, " conscious, more than enough, of the reforms it was " given them to carry out, unable to see the need for " fresh reform which arises from time to time. That " the Head Master should be freed from the control " of the Provost in all merely school questions, or " that he and some of the senior assistants should be " also Fellows of the college, seem, at present, the " main things needed to enable Eton to amend her " system, and introduce fresh studies and fresh " methods of study." How far do you concur with this statement — first as to the non-interference of the Provost in all merely school question ? — If the Pro- vost is a man who has been a schoolmaster himself, I should think that his advice would be very valuable indeed. I know that the late Provost held that opinion when he was master. 1170. You consider that his advice would be very valuable, just as the advice of the assistant masters would be valuable to the Head Master ; but the question is whether his power of interference and of putting a veto upon what the Head Master thinks would be for the good of the school is advantageous ? —It would depend, in a great measure, upon the way in which he exercised the power. 1171. Did you wish, when you were Head Master hat you could have been freed from that power ? I cannot say that I did. 1 172. With respect to the second part of Mr. Paul's proposal, namely, that the Head Master, or some of the senior masters should also be Fellows of the college, do you see any advantage that would be derived from that ; do you think "that the sjovernin" body should also form part of the acting body ? We have .ilways looked upon a fellowship "as a place of rest for men who have been masters, rather than as a place for those who are actually engaged in the work of the school. 1173. {Lord Devon.) Have you any objection to mention to the Commission the characters of the cases upon which your opinion was overruled by the Provost ? — I would rather not do so. 1174. I do not want you to enter into details ; but were they cases connected with the appointment of masters ? — It was so upon one occasion. 1175. You say that when the Provost is a man of experience his advice may very often be beneficial to the Head Master. Are you able to tell us, looking back to what has occurred for the last 100 years, whether the Provosts have uniformly been men ot experience in connexion with the system of education pursued at Eton ? — The Provost before Dr. Ilawtrey was not, I believe. He was absent from Eton for a long time. 1176. Who was the Provost before him? — Dr. Goodall, who was Head Master of the school before he was Provost. {Mr. Dupids.) And before him came Dr. Davies. 1177. {Lord Devon.) The appointment seems to be one in which the Principal Master (the Head Master) is amenable to statutable control, and he is also amenable to alterations at the instance of the Provost. What does that word " alterations " refer to. You have given us one instance with regard to the alteration of hours and holidays ; how far does it apply to the issue of books, or to the allocation of portions of the day for particular branches of study ? — ( The Provost.) It applies in all the cases you have mentioned. 1178. Then the Head Master could not devote more hours in the week to French without obtaining the sanction of the Provost ? — No, he could not. 1179. Is the Provost's sanction required to every new edition of a classic ? — If he wishes to introduce any new book, it is necessary that the Provost should be made acquainted with it. 1 1 80. Does what you say now of the Provost apply in his absence to the vice-provost also ? — If he wished to introduce a new book, he would go to no one but the Provost. When I spoke of the power of the vice-provost and Fellows in residence to sanction alterations, I spoke rather in reference to holidays or alterations made in the work of the week. 1181. Does it not appear to you that there is some danger if you make the school to some extent depen- dent upon two gentlemen instead of one. May it not lead to a diiference of opinion, and affect pre- judicially the interests of the school. You say that it is desirable to save the school from the danger of being dependent upon one person ; but where you make it depend upon two is there not some risk of uncertain management ? — The words in the printed answer, " To save the school from the danger of being " dependent for the time being upon the Head Master " alone," are not mine. 1182. But what is your opinion with regard to those words. Do you not think that there is a danger which is not referred to here ? — There would be a danger both ways, of course. As a general rule, I suppose that two heads that have had experience are better than one. 1183. But what do you say with regard to divided responsibility ? — There is that inconvenience, cer- tainly. 1184. {BIr. Thompson.) Two wills are not better than one in the management of a school ? — Certainly not. 1185. {Lord I^yttelton.) Was Provost Hodgson ever a master at Eton ? — I believe he was for a short time. {Mr. Dtipuis.) I remember him there for one year. 1186. With regard to the control of the Provost over the general administration of the school, I apprehend that that stands upon the general words of the statutes, according to what is reasonable, and applies only to matters of real importance ? — It has always been exercised, even in regard to the smallest matters. 11 87. The smallest matters even ? — Yes. 1 188. To any alteration of the school hours ? — Yes. PVBLIC SCHOOLS COMMISSION: — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 43 1189. With regard to Ihe studio?, points of schol.ir- ship, for instance, does it not seem thnt the Head Master, .and all tlie under masters wiio are engaged from day to day in the work of teaching chissics, should bo the best judges wiih regard to what is necessary. They naturally keep up their acquaint- ance with the progress of classical literature both hero and in Germany ; but is it likely that tlie Provost of Eton should keep up his classical knowledge to the same extent ? — Of course, that would depend entirely upon himself. 1190. He has not the daily practice and stimulus which the Head Master has ? — No. 1191. {Sir S. Northcote.) Is it not necessary that the Provost should be a King's man ? — No, but he must have been upon one of the two foundations. 1192. Do you consider that there is a greater lati- tude in the choice of the Head Master than there is in the choice of Provost ? — {Mr. Diipuis.) Certainly, owing to that unhappy restriction in regard to his being a bachelor of divinity. The Provost must be a bachelor of divinity, and the Head Master m.ay be so. At this moment lie is only a master of arts. 1193. I did not mean in that way. I meant only in reference to obtaining men less subject to local or college influences. I suppose tlifit practically the Head Master has always been a King's man, as well as the Provost ? — He has been for mauy years. {Mr. Dupuis.) He has always been so within my memory. 1194. Is it within your knowledge, Mr. Provost, or Mr. Dupuis, that in former times there have been diflercnces of opinion between the Head Master and the Provost as to the employment of other than King's men as assistant masters ? — ( The Provost.) Yes. 1195. In such eases has it not taken this form: that the Head Master has been anxious to employ assistant masters who have not been King's men, and the Provost has overruled him ? — I will not be cer- tain as to King's men ; but it certainly has been so with regard to men who have not been on the foun- dation. {Mr. Dupuis.) I was lower master for a few }-ears, and the lower master appoints his assistants in the same way that the Head Master appoints his. A vacancy occurred in my time, and I proposed to the late Dr. Goodall to appoint Mr. Selwyn, the present Bishop of New Zealand. He had never been at King's, nor was he upon the foundation at Eton. 1196. {Lord Clarendon.) He had been at Eton, I believe ? — Yes, as an oppidan. Great liberality was shown in that instance in reference to Mr. Selwyn ; Mr. Selwyn himself took some days to consider the matter, and finally declined the appointment. I have reason to know, however, that, if he had accepted it, the Provost would not have refused his sanction. 1197. {Mr. Thompson.) But I believe Mr. Selwyn had been resident at Eton for some time ? — Yes, at that time he was private tutor to Lord Powis's son. 1198. {Mr. Vaughan.) I understood you to express your dissent from the general opinion expressed by Mr. Paul in his evidence at page 53, as to the effect of the Provost's interference with the Head Master. May I ask whether or not you concur to a certain extent with the reasons there urged for that general opinion, namely, that a person, after long and great experience at Eton, and being of the age at which that experience would come, would naturally have a tendency to cling to the traditions of the past ? — {The Provost.) That is human nature. 1199. Even where a change would be most de- sirable ? — Yes. {Mr. Diiptiis. ) May I be allowed to say a word or two with regard to this pas.^age from the evidence of Mr. Paul ? He says : " The governors, — the Provost " and Fellows, — are men who are resting from their " work, deeply imbued with the traditions of the " past," I suppose we are more or less ; " eouscious, " more than enough, of the reforms it was given them " to carry out ; unable to see the need for fresh " reform which arises from time to time." I dis- tinctly den)' that ; I deny it as strongly as I pos- sibly can, lis I should have thought Mr. Paul must have well known himself. 1200. i Sir S.Nurthcote.) Do you think it desirable that (he Head IMaster should be freed from the con- trol of the Provost in all merely school questions ; questions in reference to the selection of books, for instance ? ( The Provost.) I do not see any harm that could result. 1201. Do you suppose that if the Head Master ever did wish to alter the books, the Provost would make any objection ? Have you any reason to think that that has ever been done ? — It has. 1202. (Mr. Thompson.) Do you think that the books and the editions at present used by the school, are, on the whole, satisfactory ? — No ; I think they are cap.ablo of improvement. 1203. Does your answer apply both to the books, and to the editions of books in use ? — To both. 1204. {Sir S. Northcote.) I suppose that practi- cally the attention of the Head Master is directed, and his interest is excited in the competition of his own boys, with boys from other schools at the uni- versities ? — Yes. 1205. Is the attention of the Provost directed to the same points in the same manner ? — Not in so lively a manner. 1206. It would seem naturally to follow, then, that the Head Master should have a decision upon ques- tions of this sort ? — Yes. 1207. {Mr. Thompson.) As regards advice do you not think that the ex-Head Master, whether Provost or not, if he were willing to give advice to the acting master, where advice was required, would confer a benefit? — I think he might. 1 have no doubt; he would give his advice if asked for it, but he would have no power to interfere. 1208. There would be no difliculty iu obtaining his advice ? {Mr. Dupuis.) With regard to that I may say that I know very well that wlien Dr. llawtrey was first appointed Head Master, he repeatedly conferred with his predecessor, Dr. Keate. 1209. {Mr. Thompson.) But he was not Provost ? — No ; he was canon of Windsor, and he lived in the neighbourhood. I know iVom my own knowledge that Dr. llawtrey continually referred to him in the early part of his mastership. ' 1210. {Mr. Vaughan.) May I ask whether, so far as your experience has gone, you are enabled to s.ay that the Provost has beeu disposed to yield the decision of such questions as the use of books to the Head Master, or whether he h.as thought himself bound to exercise his own individual judgment upon each ques- tion brought before him? ( The Provost.) Generally he has yielded. {Lord Clarendon.) The lower master is ordered to be a bachelor of arts, and not in holy orders. Is the lower master in holy orders ? — {3Ir. Dupuis.) He is. That " nee in sacris ordinibus constitutus," is not ob- served now. The present lower master is, so was I myself. I recollect one who was not. Dr. Keate. When first appointed he was not in holy orders. 1211. Then that is a statutable disqualification, which is not now observed ? — Just so. 1212. Do you know how long it has been infringed? — My knowledge of Eton goes b.ack to the year 1806. In the course of that time there have been seven or eight lower masters, and Dr. Keate is the only one I can recollect who was not in holy orders ; but even in this case he very soon took holy orders. 1213. Was this done while ho was lower master ? —Yes. 1214. {Lord Li/ttelton.) It was originally con- sidered an office that no man in orders would talje ? — I suppose so ; he is called ostiarius. He need not be a bachelor of arts. 1215. {Mr. Vauglion.) It struck mo that ostiarius might be a metaphorical expression applicable to a F 2 ETO:^. Itev. C. O. OoodfvTtt, licv. G. J. TJitpuis. litv. J. Wilder. T. liatc/iclJo Esq. 7 July 18C2. 44- PUBLIC SCHOOLS COMMISSION:— MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. ETON. J{ev. C. O. Goodford. Rev. (r. J. Dupuis. Jlev. J. Wilder. T. Biilcheldor, Esq. 7 July I8G2. teacher of rudiments ?— It comes from ostium, tlie door. It moans an uslier, no doubt. 1216. {Sir S. Northcote.) So far then as we can n-athcr from any indications of the intentions of the founder, a bettor provision is now made for tlie teaching of tlic lower school tliau was originally iMtoiided ? — I should s.ay so certainly. 1217. And a superior class of master is now era- |)loyod to that which was originally contemplated ?— Yes. , ., . . 1218. (Lord Lyttellon.) Has that prohibition ever been enforced ?— ( The Provost.) I never heard of it. 1219. There would be no difference upon that question between the Head Master and the master of the lower school ? — No. 1220. {Lord Clarendon.) The lower master is amenable to the authority of the Provost, and of the Head ^Master. Is he for any act of his obliged to refer to both the Head Master and Provost ?— No, only in regard to the appointment of assistants. 1221. You say here : — " He is amenable to the •' authority of the Provost and Head Master, and " requires their sanction for the appointment of his '■' assistants, and for the introduction of any changes " which he may tliink desirable." Therefore, if the lower master thinks that any change in the lo\yer school is desirable he must have the double sanction of the Head Master and Provost ? — Yes. 1222. Suppose the Head Master and the Provost disagree ? — The Provost would carry the day. 1 223. Have any such cases arisen ? — No, the master has always had his own way, I believe. 1224. Is that advantageous to the school ? — {Mr. Dupuis.) It is not disadvantageous, I think. When I was lower master I recollect the introduction of Greek into the lower school. That took place in my time. I was anxious tli.at it should be introduced, and I went to the Head Master, Dr. Hawtrey, and then to the Provost. He did not like it altogether at first, but subsequently sanctioned it. 1225. {Sir S. Northcofe.) He might have over- ruled the opinion of the Head Master, and have ob- jected if he had so chosen ? — Yes ; I took him the book, I wished to introduce ; he raised certain objec- tions to it, but gave way ultim.itely. 1226. {Lord Clarendon.) With regard to the sub- ordination of the lower master to the Head Master, does it stand upon anything more specific in the statutes, than the words that he is to be " qui pr«dicto " magistro prKsenti in prremissis diligenter assistat "? — {The Provost.) The power claimed over the lower master has stood more upon usage than anything else. 1227. You are not aware of anything more specific in the statutes than the passage I have just read ? — No. 1228. {Lord CVarejic/o;;.) You say that a foundation scholar is chosen after a strict examination. It is a very strict examination for the admission of a foun- dation scholar, is it not ? — Yes. 1229. And how long has that system of competitive examination been introduced ? — About 18 or 20 years ; but I should be afraid to fix the exact period without having the date before me. {Mr. Dupuis.) It is more thau 18 or 20 years. 1230. The system before then was simply nomina- tion ? — ( The Provost.) Simply nomination. 1231. Without examination? — You were required to take in a book, and construe a passage, but you knew very well beforehand what it was to be. 1232. What was the effect of that system ; hov/ did it operate. What sort of boys did you have ? Very stupid boys got in who had no business to get in. In strict fact, nomination, in the strictest sense of the word, exists still. After the boys are all examined, the Provost of Eton may say : " Well, I think the best " of these boys is so-and-so ;" the Provost of King's may say, " I agree with you," but somebody else may say, " I do not agree with you," and in that case we, Lave recourse to voting. 1 233. I do not understand how the system of nomi- nation is brought into play with competitive examina- tion. Are boys nominated in order that they may compete ? — No. 1234. Then how is it ? — Any boy from any part of the world may come and compete. The examiner looks over his paper, and after all the papers have been examined, we take it in turns to say, " Well, we think so-and-so is the best." Some one says, " I " do not agree," and then we t.ake the majority of votes, and the boy who gets most is put first. 1235. (Lord Lyttelton.) He is placed first on the merits of the examination ? — Yes. 1236. (Lord Clarendon.) Then it is not nomina- tion ? — No, perhaps not. 1237. (Mr. Thompson.') It is election ? — Yes. 1238. {Lord Lyttelton.) I believe they must all be British subjects ? — Yes. 1239. Born in any part of the British dominions ? —Yes. 1240. (Lord Clarendon.) You say that under the old system stupid boys were admitted on the foun- dation ? — Yes. 1241. What has been the result of the change of the system ? — No doubt the boys upon the foundation have been intellectually the elite of the school. The only question is, whether that has not been carried rather too far. 1242. In what respect ? — It is questionable whether it has not injured and damped the energies of the other boys ; that is the only difficulty. 1243. You think they .are so highly trained ?—r They are kept in a state of constant training. 1244. Do you consider that it has had the effect of brmging to Eton a great number of able boys who would not otherwise have come to Eton at all ? — I have no doubt of it. 1245. You s.ay that boys may be drawn now from any part of England, is there no restriction ? — (3Ir. Dupuis.) No, they may come from any part of the Queen's dominions. ( T/ic Provost.) I had a letter the other day from a gentleman in India making inquiries upon the subject. 1246. I think it used to be restricted to natives of Buckinghamshire and Cambridgeshire ? — {3Ir. Du- puis.) Rather to England — " infra regnuni Anglias." 1247. Is there not some restriction now ? — ( The Provost.) We are obliged to give the preference to boys born upon the college estates. 1248. When was it thrown open to all the Queen's subjects ? — About two or three years ago. 1249. Not more than that ? — No. 1250. Up to three years ago was Ireland excluded ? (Mr. Dupuis.) Yes, and Scotland also. ( The Provost.) It was not our fault ; we applied some time before we could obtain an alteration. 1251. Whom did you apply to ? — To the Cambridge Commissioners, the University Commissioners. 1252. Did they open it ?— Yes, at last they did. 1253. Is there any notice given of the elections, or is it assumed to be a matter of sufficient noto- riety ? — A notice is required to be given by the statutes of the college seven weeks beforehand. 1254. It is not published in the Gazette ? — No, but it is stated in the Times, the Morning Post, and most of the leading papers when the day of examina- tion is to take place. 1255. (Mr. Vaughan.) Is that done by advertise- ment ? — No, I put it in myself. 1256. As an advertisement ? — No. It is inserted in large type in a conspicuous part of the paper, where it is most likely to attract attention. 1257. You say the foundation scholar's are required to be born British subjects ? — Yes. 1258. (Mr. Thompson.) They are to be born in lawful wedlock ? — Yes. 1259. {I^ord Clarendon.) Eoman Catholics are practically excluded ? — Yes. 1260. (Lord Lyttelton.) How do you do in the case of the son of a naturalised foreigner ? — He would be admitted if born iu wedlock. A gentleman wrote to me the other dav from India. He is an officer PUBLIC SCHOOLS COMMISSION: — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 45 there, but he could not produce any evidence of his marrin^e, or of liis cliildrcn's birth, on account of all the documents having been destroyed in the mutiny. He wrote to me to know what he was to do under such circumstances. 1261. What did you reply to him ? — I told him I had no doubt if he would send over a declaration made before a magistrate, we should accept it, but as I was only one out of six, I could not answer that we should take it for certain. 1262. {Lord Clarendon.) Does that restriction in reference to being born in wedlock appear in the statutes, and that he is to be a member of the Church of England ? — No. 1263. {Mr. Thompson.) There are some other exclusions, I think ? — The statutes excluded illegiti- mate children, and also those who are incurably diseased or mutilated, and who are consequently unfit for holy orders. 1264. Has a case of that sort arisen? — Yes; a doubt arose when I was Head Master. 1265. Do you not think that sort of an exclusion an obsolete one ? — If the Bishop were to decide that a boy was mutilated so as to be unfit for ordination he would inevitably be excluded. 1266. Is there any species of mutilation which is interpreted by the Bishop as disqualifying for ordi- nation ? — I do not know that there is. 1267. I see that those are also excluded who have possessions of more value than five marks a year. How is that interpreted ? — I am not quite certain what the limit is, but we have had two instances of boys heirs to entailed property who came within that restriction. 1868. Was it in the lifetime of their fathers ? — Yes ; they were not boys who on reaching their majority would enter into the possession of property, but heirs in tail. 1269. Then you think that restriction is not impor- tant ? — No. 1270. You would not exclude from the benefits of the college even persons who had five marks or more, provided they were fit and proper persons in other respects ? — No ; unless they were boys of independent means of their own. 1271. And those you think ought to be excluded ? — Yes. 1272. Are there any expressions in the old statutes which imply that there were great varieties of rank among the collegers ? — I do not recollect. 1273. Mention is made in one place of nobility and riches as possible grounds of dissension among the members of the college ? — I think every member of the college swears that he will not take part in any feud which may arise in consequence of the difference of rank and grade between one colleger and another. I think you will find it at page 491 of the statutes ? {Lord Lytlelton.) Yes ; " prsrogativas nobilitatis." {Mr. Thompson.) '• Aut divitiarum " is also men- tioned. {Lord Lyttelfon.) "Quod non ero detractor, su- " surro, vel faeiens obloquia, aut provocans odium, " iram, discordias, invidiam, contumelias, rixas vel " Jurgia, aut speciales aut praecellentes praerogativas " nobilitatis, generis, scientiarum, facultatum, aut " divitiarum allegans." {Mr. Thompson.) Yes : " Aut speciales, aut prte- " cellentes praerogativas nobilitatis, generis, scien- " tiarum, facultatum, aut divitiarum allegans ; nee " inter soeios, capellanos, clericos ejusdem nostri " collegii, aut alios dicti nostri collegii scholares " australes, aquilonares, seu boreales, aut patria; ad " patriam, generis ad genus, nobilitatis ad nobili- " tatem vel ignobilitatem, seu alias qualitercumque " comparationes, qujB odiosoe sunt in verbo vel in " facto causa commovendi maliciose soeios vel scho- " lares, faciam quovis modo taeite vel expresse." That seems to imply that there were diversities of rank, and also of fortune, amongst the college scholars in the earliest times ?— Yes. Etq. 7 July 1SCl>. {Mr. Vaughan.) I should not have inferred that ETON, necessarily. {Mr. Thompson.) I should like to have your •'^«<"- opinion. Dr. Goodford, as to the desirability of re- ^- O. Guodfirri. taiuing those restrictions upon the choice of the col- q j x>h;im/»-. legers. Do you think that that in reference to the Jiev. J. \^iUkr. admission of illegitimate children is of importance ? T. Baicheldw, —Yes, I do. 1274. And that with regard to incurable disease or mutilation ? — Yes, I think that also there ought to be a restriction in regard to cases of Incurable dis- ease ; that is to say, such diseases as are likely to attract notice. 1275. Then what do you say to the third restric- tion ; that with regard to the five marks. Do you think that of importance ? — No, if it is kept as low as that. 1276. Then you still would have some limit? — Yes. {Mr. Dupuis.) They are ordered to be in the sta- tutes " pauperes et indigeutes." 1277. But how do you reconcile that to these re- strictions ? — Five marks a year is certainly not the literal meaning of poor and indigent. 1278. They would not bo " pauperes et indigentes" if they had five marks in those days ? — No. 1279. {Lord Devon.) Does every scholar, after he reaches his sixteenth year, take the oath prescribed by the statutes ? — ( The Provost.) There is no re- cord of its having been taken for many years. 1280. Do you think that the result of the system of open competition has been to improve the intel- lectual status of the school ? — Yes. 1281. And you have expressed a doubt whether if any harm has been done, it has not rather been to the oppidan portion of the school ? — Yes. 1282. And you think it would be better to bring the oppidans up to the standard of the collegers, than to keep the collegers down to the standard of the oppidans ? — Certainly. 1283. With regard to the social position of the collegers what eficct has it had upon that ? — It has improved it very much. 1284. Has the result been that the two portions of the school, the scholars and the oppidans, mix to- gether more freely in games than they used to do ? — No ; I think not : tliey play now, collegers against oppidans, at football and cricket. 1285. Do they mix more together in social inter- course than they used to do ? — That depends very much upon the state of fueling on the part of boys in the upper part of the school at the time. 1286. If they do not take part in some of the amusements of the other part of the school, is that owing to any actual exclusion or to the circumstance that some of the amusements lead to very great expense ? — No doubt they do not take part in boat- ing, on account of the expense. 1287. As to the social amusements, you know what was the state of things when you were a scho- lar. Is the exclusion more or less now than it used to be ? — It varies very much from year to year. I should certainly say, with regard to the lower part of the school, that they mix more on a par now than they used to do ; but with regard to the upper school, it varies very much with the boys you have. 1288. {Lord Lyttellon.) Do you suggest that it would be desirable to relax the present standard of admission to the college ? — No. 1289. Is it not the case that there has been a striking effect produced at Cambridge since the degree examination has been thrown open to King's men ? —Yes. 1290. With regard to illegitimate children, do you think it would atfect the general high character of the college if they were admitted ? — I think it might do so. 1291. With regard to the amusements. Is it not the fact that the collegers have a boating system of their own ? — Yes. F 3 46 PUBLIC SCHOOLS COMMISSION .—MINUTES OF EVIDEXCE. T. Duniii> " realm of England, preference to be given to natives Rev. J. Wilder. " of Bucks and Cambridgeshire, and other places in T. BatchelJor, " which the college property is situated. They are " to be invited from all parts of the country by public " notice on the college gates, six weeks or more " before the election. Cateris paribus, choristers " are to bo prefen-ed." How is it that that is not in reality carried out, and that choristers are not pre- ferred ? — ( The Provost.) I suppose because they do not present themselves. {Mr. Dtipuis.) They are generally an inferior class of boys. 1480. Are the Provost and Fellows who conduct the election sworn before the election. Do they take any oath at all ? — ( The Provost.) They read the statute of Elizabeth against favour and partiality, and they are sworn to elect according to the Acts of Parliament under that statute. That is done before we proceed to the election at all. I may add that that is our answer to urgent applications. A person writes and says, " My son is very poor ; I hope you " will consider that iu his election." My only answer is that we are sworn to act without favour or par- tiality. 1481. {Mr. Thompson.) What is it you swear? To elect without favour. 1482. {Lord Clarendon.) I think that Mr. Wilder expressed great regret at the present system upon which the choral service is performed. I believe they now have a shave in tlie service of the choristers of Windsor. Is there any intention on the part of the college to raise the choristers to the number contem- plated by the statute. Is there any intention to make a change in the existing state of things ? — {Mr. Dupuis.) I should like to see a change as soon as it could be satisfactorily effected The question is one that has long been discussed and thought of. The number of choristers has been increased from 10 to 12 within the last few years. The question of having a wholly distinct choir would, however, involve such a large additional annual expenditure that it seems impossible almost to entertain the idea immediately. 1483. Could not some arrangement be made by which the Windsor boys would not be so hard worked us they are now, without increasing the immljer to any very groat extent ? — If it is to be a joint concern, I do not see how we are to provide any remedy. Wliat we principally suffer from at present, is the want of choral service on a Sunday morning. 1484. {Lord Lytlelton.) I think there is nothing in the statutes in the shape of a provision for them beyond the time they are to remain choristers ? — No. 1485. They now receive 15/., I believe ? — Yes. 1486. They are otherwise required to be on the same footing as the members of the college ? — Yes. 1487. {Lord Clarendon.) Does every chorister, leaving at a certain age, receive 15/. ? — Yes, every chorister who leaves. 1488. Does the Windsor fund contribute anything to them ? — {Mr. Balcheldor.) Yes, they pay 10/. 1489. Then a chorister receives 25/. on leaving ?— . Y'es, supposing that he has served a proper time. He would not receive it if he had only been there a few months ; but if he has been there a sufficient time, he would receive 15/. from Eton, and 10/. from Windsor. 1490. {Lord Lyttelton.) Do you ordinarily appren- tice those hoys ? — We apprentice a great many of them. 1491. Do they look forward to being apprenticed? — Y'es, they always have the money. Some go into offices. 1492. Then that sum acts }is a premium for their apprentioeship ? — rYes, G2 52 PUBLIC SCHOOLS COMMISSION :— MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 25/. a. J. Dupuin. Jtcr. J. Wil'ler. T. DalcheUur, Esq. 7 July 18G2. ETON. 1493. But you do not often pay as much as upon apprenticing fliem ? — Yes. Hcv. 1494. {Lurd Clarendon.) I believe the school is C O. Gwdjord. under the cliarge of the Ucan of Windsor ?— (i/r. ^''•'- Dupiiis.) Their school is in Windsor, but we contri- bute to it. . i T 1 49 0. Where do you say the supervision is .'' — In Windsor. . r, T\ 149G. What arc the commons they receive i — ine choristers are allowed one pound of meat each a day from Eton College. {Mr. Ratchcldor.) They have bread, meat, and ))cer, and they generally have it sent to their houses. 1497. {Lord'Lyttdton.) Do they have it once a week ?— No, aboiit three times a week. I can assure you they are jiroperly eared foi-. {Mr. Dupuis.) They have a gown allowed them, as well as the scholars. 1498. {Mr. T/iompson.) With regard to question 17, do you conceive that the " pueri coramensales " are the same class of boys as the present oppidans ? — ( T/ie Frovost.) No. {Mr. Dupuis.) I take it that those " filii generoso- " rum " have been the nucleus of the present oppidan system. 1499. {Mr. Thompson.') They are mentioned as dining in hall with the collegers ? — Yes. 1500. {Lord Devon.) Will you refer, Mr. Wilder, to page 30 in the answers of Eton College. You will see there that the " pueri commensales " are referred to either under that or other names. It it said as " generosorum filii, qui pro suorum desideriis amico- " rum stabunt ad coramunas," &c., they are to sit at tables in hall like the scholars and choristers, without claiming precedence or a particular place of their own. Again, they are mentioned as " filii nobilium seu valen- " tium personarum." The boys hero spoken of arc bo3's of whom it seems to be contemplated that, not being among the scholars or lay boys, they would be present and partake of the benefits of the school. Does that class exist now ? — {Mr. Wilder.) It does not. 1501. Has it ever occurred to you that if full effect were given to this provision by the admission of boys who should receive a certain proportion of their educa- tion, although, perhaps, not so large a proportion as is now given to the scholars, free, the benefits of the noble establishment of Eton might be more widely extended, and to a class which does not participate in its benefits .at present ? — Yes, I think they might to the children of persons of comparatively small in- comes, such as clergymen and professional men, who have almost a claim to the benefits of Eton, and who do not now participate in them in consequence of the large expense which the education of an oppidan entails. The " commensales " were intended to be boys ujion the same footing as the scholars, except in not being a portion of the college, simply paying for the expense of their food and commons. They would have every advantage of the education afforded, and would, of course, be provided with everything, payin"- simply for the cost of their commons. That, of course, would open a very wide field for a number of persons who would be able to educate their boys for 60Z. a year. 1502. In order to accommodate such a class, would it be necessary to make an addition to the existing buildings ? — Of course it would. 150.3. Probably it would not be necessary to pro- vide additional accommodation in the dining hall, inasmuch as it is already capable of accommodating more than use it, but you would require .additional dormitories ?— We should require to have .additional accommodation in close connexion with the precincts of the college. 1504. What would be the social position of such boys ?— I think they would stand exactly upon the same footing as the schol.ars. 1.305. Do I understand that your suggestion would be tliat the admission into this class of " eommens.ales " of some 40 or 50 boys should be obtained by free competition among any boys who might present themselves ? — It happens now that seldom less than 50 boys compete for the scholarships, and of that number there are not more than 20 elected, and not 12 out of that 20 obtain vacancies in the college. It would be easy to extend that number so as to give a portion of those boys the option of becoming " commensales." 1 506. The large number of boys at Eton at present is spoken of as an objection. Do you think ihat the addition of 40 or 50 more to the general establish- ment would give greater validity to that objection ?^ Not at all, because the change would be under a special regulation, and if they were appointed they would either be pLaced together in one house, or dis- persed among various houses. By the )U-esent arrangements of the school, as the number of boys increases, more persons are appointed to superintend them. There would, therefore, be no want of discipline. 1507. It has sometimes been suggested that it would be of advantage to the school if a larger num- her of exhibitions were founded, of 20/. or 30/. a year for boys. Which do you think would be the best system with a view to the good of the school ; the establishment of such a system as that which you now shadow out, or the creation of additional exhibitions? — I should decidedly prefer the " commen.- s.ales," because, if you establish exhibitions you cannot confine them to boys to whom they would bo of pecuniary .advantage. Y''ou must open them generally, and the sous of rich persons would obtain them quite as readily as those to whom they would be of great advantage. Then again the ch.arge of the exhibitions would fall upon the funds of the college. At present we have no funds for such a purpose, and if we had them the effect would only be to diminish a Ijoy's ex- pense by 15/. or 20/. a year, whereas by the system of " commensales " it would be diminished by 50/. or 60/. a year. 1508. Do you look upon the introduction of a system of " commensales " as capable of immediately extending the benefits of Eton to a considerable class, which is at present excluded ? — I have no doubt that is would. 1509. {Sir S. Northcofe.) Is it not the intention of the statutes that the " commensales" should be the sons of richer jiersons than j'ou seem to imply ? — Not at all. 1510. {Lord I^ytfelton.) The statutes say"'gene- " rosorum filii ?" — The " generosorum filii " are men- tioned as another class. I do not think that they .are necessarily to be accounted the sons of rich parents. 1511. {Sir S. Korlhcote.) Suppose you leave out of sight the imi>ortance of providing for poorer per- sons, and look only to the stimulus which should be afforded to the oppidans, who form the great bulk of the school. Do you not think that a system of exhibir tions, or the distribution of "commensales"' among the different houses, would stimulate the oppidans to work more than the gathering of boys together in one place as "commensales" ? — I do not think so, indeed. At the same time I do not think it necessary that the " com- mensales " should be all in one house, but, if your object is to benefit persons of small incomes, you would better carry out the objects of the foundation l)y making them a sort of addition to the present number of the scholars, than if you .attempted to attain the end you have in view in any other w.ay. I do not think that the small value of the exhibitions which have been mentioned, would be any very great object to persons of limited means. They might be "honorary dis- tinctions, but pecuniarily I do not think they would be of much .advantage. 1512. Have you considered the question in the point of view I h.ave just indicated, namely, as likely to stimulate the great body of the oppidans to work'? — I do not think the small sum of the exhibitions would be much inducement. They would merely amount to honorary distinctions, and might stimulate them to the distinction of gaining a prize, but would I PUBLIC SCHOOLS COMMISSION : — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. altogether fail to touch the class of persons to whom it i:5 tlie great object to extend the benefits of au etlucation at Eton. 1513. Thoii I understand you to recommend the establishment of" comnieusalos" chiefly with the view joi' providing for persons of limited means ? — Yes. My object would bo to provide for a large class which •is now practically excluded. 1514. {Lord LyttvUon.) I do not see that the " pueri " conimensales " are anywhere fully defined in the statutes ? — Tlicy are constantly mentioned. 1515. At page 515 of tlic statutes they arc men- tioned, " neenon pueri conimensales;" but I cannot find wiiat tliey can be, unless it means that they are the general body of oppidans ? — I suppose that the " cora- mensiiles " and commoners are about the same thing. " Commensales " would occupy the same relative position as the commoners in universities. {Mr. T/iy>mj)^on.) They are mentioned again in page 532, " et generosorum filii pueri commensales." {Lord Devon.) Yes ; and five lines further on, "et pueri commensales sicut venerint, etiam abs(iue " vcudicatione superioris vel anterioris scdis, aut loci " proprii cujuscumcpie et absque tumultu per ipsorum " aliquem faciendo." 1516. {Lord Lyttcltoii.) " Et generosorum filii pueri " commensales, qui pro suorum desideriis amicorura " stabunt ad conimunas illas qua; pro tempore in " collegio regali prrcdicto allocabuntur pro capel- " lauis coUegii nostri supradicti." That means at the request of their friends ? — Yes. 1517. As "filii nobiliumseu valentium personarum" they are to be taught " absque onero nostri regali-s " collegii." — ( The Provost.) And they are to pay for all they have. In 1613 and the next four years Lord Willoughby and his page are charged for commons in hall for a time varying from 12 to 33 weeks. In 1616 and the two following years the charge is for Lord Willoughby's table, in the last year, 8 weeks. In 1623 and 1624 there is a charge for " Lord Dormer and his companie" in hall. Persons of title appear among the commensales. 1518. They would bo a special class though they are to sit with the others. There is no trace of them in the college since the framing of the statutes ? — {Mr. Dupnis.) We have no trace of their lodging in college, but they are known often to have had their meals in the hall. Did not Mr. Wilder enter upon this point ? — 1519. {Mr. Thompson.) He seemed to think that they were not oppidans, but an intermediate class. I wanted that idea developed? — {Mr. Dupuis.) Nothing like that class has existed within our memory. 1520. {Lord Lyttelton.) There is no trace of it? — The " pueri commensales," as also the " filii nobi- "lium" used to dine in the hall, and there were daily lists made out of those who did dine in hall. I think there were about 30. • 1521. Did they dine with the other boys; be- cmse it is said that they shall be " ad conimunas." They were to live with the rest of the scholars, that is quite clear? — {Mr. Duptiis.) There have been no " commensales" since the Restoration, certainly; and nothing of the kind mentioned here has ever taken place. I do not know how we should .answer the question which you wish to have inserted. 1522. {Mr. Thompson.) But you know that boys not on the foundation did dine at one time with the collegers ? — Yes. 1523. You do not know how many? — Old audit books are existing with the names of those who daily dined there. Those I have seen relate chiefly to the period between 1564 and 1648. Besides the 70 scholars, the names of the sons of noblemen and gentlemen occur in them, varying in number from 37 downwards. 1524. {Lord Lyttelton.) But you have no record of any general class of boys corresponding to this description of " commensales" ? — ( The Provost.) No. They dined rarely at the 1st, usually at the 2nd and 3rd tables. lie G. J. Uitjmh. Itev. J. Wilihr. T. Batchdtlor, Esq. 7 July 1862. 1525. And you havo no particular information ETON, about them except what is expressed iu the statutes ? ■ — No. liev. 1526. Nothing in respect to usage, or as to tho C.O.Gootljvnf. admission of the boys — no particular provision about them as '' pueri commensales"? — No. {Mr. Ditpuis.) Whether they existed or not, wo cannot really at present say ; but if tho school were to be restored as wo were talking of, it would be a grave question whether wo could introduce two classes of oppidans, n.imely, distinguished oppidans, and those who were not ; and even if we could, a question would arise whether it would bo desirable. 1527. {Mr. Thompson.) It would require great consider.ation ? — {Mr. Dupuis.) Very great considera- tion, indeed. 1528. {I^ord Clarendon.) If you will havo tho goodness to look at page 30, you will find there : "It " may be presumed, perhaps, that as the imnibcr of " oppidans has increased to an extent which has ren- " dered it impossible to comply with the statutes in " this respect, provision has been made from time to " time for the maintcnnnec and support of others '• besides tho Head and lower masters, beyond what " is contemplated by the statutes through payments " from the boys themselves." Of course, the increase in the number of oppidans is the very reason for tho increase in the number of assistant masters, but the increase in the number of oppidans is no reason for throwing the cost and burden of maintaining tho Head and lower masters upon the oppidans. The Head and lower masters ought to be niaiutailied by tho foundation ; but they receive emoluments from other sources than the Ibundation, I believe ? — Yes, and by far the larger proportion of their emoluments. 1529. If tlie number of opjiidans increases, of course there ought to be au increase in the number of assistant masters? — Yes. 1530. But although there ought to be a great many more assistant masters than there are at present, that is no reason why the charge of maintaining the Head and lower masters, which is contemplated by tho statutes, should bo thrown upon the oppidans ? — They receive a certain sum from the college now. 1531. Just so ; but do you not think that the col- lege is bound to provide, under the statutes, adequate salaries for the Head and lower masters ? I do not mean to say that the provision awarded to them by tlie statutes should be sutRcient ; but ought not tho college to pay adequately tho Head and lower masters ? — The question is, what " adequately " means. 1 532. " Adequately " would bo that sum which is necessary for the services of men equal to the per- formance of the duties. — ( The Prorosf.) I should not suppose that they were bound to ])ay more than the statute imposes upon them. {Mr. Dupuis.) The Head and lower masters have stntutiible allowances as it is, and although they are not of any great value, still they arc statutable pay- ments which are ordered to be paid to them. 1533. Yes; but these payments are made to them, T suppose, according to the value of money in tho founder's time ? — Certainly. 1534. Everything else has increased, and the sta- tutes have been altered to meet the requirements and changes of the time. Should not, therefore, the Head and lower masters receive from the college stipends increased in proportion to the change in the value of money and the requirements of the time, instead of looking for emolument to sources that are not con- templated by the statutes? — Do you mean that; be- cause in point of fact that would lead to the oppidans paying nothing ? 1 535. I do not say whether they should pay nothing, or what they should pay; but I want to know whether the college ought not to provide for the payment of the Head and lower masters ? — They do provide for it. 1536. But could they obtain the masters they now have {It the rate which the college now pays theui ; G 3 54 PUBUC SCHOOLS COMMISSION: — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. ETON. Ilev. C. O. Goodford. Heu. O. J. Dupuis. Kev. J. UiWtT. T. Balcheldor, Esq. 7 July 1862. that is to saj, could they find men fit to do the work witliout any other payment ? — No ; that would iuvolvo the question tliut I ventured to submit to your Lordshij) : Docs it involve the fact that the oppidans should pay nothing to the Head and lower masters ? 1537. That might not be fair. But supposing the college paid the Head and lower masters at that rate of inercnse beyond what the statutes contem- plated, would it not be fair in reference to the charges that arc now made that it should materially diminish the charges which the oppidans now pay ? — The op- pidans at present pay to the Head Master 6/. 6s. a year. 1538. There is an entrance fee ? — Yes, an entrance fee. 1539. {Mr. Thompson.) Then they also pay leaving money ? — Yes. 1540. (Lord Clarendon.) The Head Master now receives from the college 215/. a year ; now supposing everj-thing else to have increased in proportion to the decrease in the value of money, should he not now receive 16 times 215/., as representing the difference in the value of money at the time of framing the statutes and at present ? — Will you allow me to say this : the Head Master receives as stipend 215Z. ; he also receives 1 50Z. for mathematical instruction of the collegers, and 6/. as catechist, and 41. for quills, &c. ; making the whole amount 375/. ; but besides this 375/., he also occupies a house rent-free. 1541. {Lord Lyttelton.) The statutable allowance is 3/. \Ss., I believe ?— {The Provost.) His salary is pretty nearly equal at present to what it would be if you were to multiply it by the proper number, in order to bring it to the present value of money. {Mr. Di/pnis.) Besides this, the Head Master has granted to him an excellent house ; rent and taxes, and rates free, which I should put at 300/. a year. That should bo taken into consideration in regard to the value of that which the college now gives him. {Lord r^i/ttclton.) It is not stated here. There is nothing about the free house. {Mr. Batcheldor.) Yes, it is stated above: "Head " Master, in addition to house rent-free;" but no value is put to it. {Mr. Dupuis.) He has an excellent house by a recent arrangement. The late Head Master, Dr. Hawtrey, paid rent for the house he lived in ; but it was thought by the college fair and proper that he should have the house rent-free, and the present Head Master, Mr. Balston, has it rent-free. If let to any one else, we should probably ask 300/. a j'ear for it. We may, therefore, say that we give him 300/. a year in respect of house-rent, besides which all the repairs are paid, rates, taxes, he. 1542. There is nothing about a house in the sta- tutes ? — Yes, there is. Houses in the statutes are what we used to call masters' chambers. There are several rooms both for the Head and Lower Master. 1543. These are mentioned in the statutes ? — Yes; there are several rooms, but the masters have given them up one after another, and they are now mostly used as school rooms. 1544. {Mr. Vaufihan.) Would it not at any rate be but equitable and just that, from whatever source of revenue the college may possess, the schoolmaster should receive in addition to his statutable allowance, an annual sum proportionable to the addition which the Provost and Fellows receive to their statutable allowances at the present time. Whatever may be the source from which the revenue is derived by the college, would not that be equitable ? — 1545. {Lord Lyttelton.) What statute is it? {The Provost.) It is the 18th statute which regulates the stipend of the Provost. 1546. {Mr. Vaughun.) I should like to ask your opinion upon thai, whether it would not be but just and equitable that whatever proportionate advance any of the members of the college may receive upon their statutable allowance from any of the revenues of the college, that the Head Master should receive the same ? I do not know that he does not receive the same. 1547. Before we ascertain that, would you object to state whether you think that would not be just ? Do you think it would be just? — Yes. 1548. Is he not strictly forbidden under the statute from touching anything but his stipend ? — Yes. 1549. I would put another question upon that. The allowance and stipend of the Fellows is settled by the founder at 10/., and the average pecuniary emolument at the present moment of the Fellows being 830/., would not the proportionate increase on the Head Master's stipend, according to that, be move than 215/.?— Yes. {Mr. Dupuis.) Certainly. 1550. From whatever source of revenue the college may possess, in equity and justice the master is entitled to the increase ? — ( The Provost.) Yes. 1551. Have you ever calculated what that equi- table proportionate advance on the Head Master's stipend at the present time would amount to ? — No. 1552. Would it not at any rate involve the sharing in the same degree with the Fellows, that property which is distributed amongst them in fines ? — I do not know from what source it would come. 1553. From whatever source it would come? — Yes. 1554. {Mr. Thompson.) He is called eondttclitius in the statute ? — Yes. 1555. Do you think he never had any right to claim an advance ? — He cannot claim any division. {3Ir. Dupuis.) He cannot claim anything beyond his stipend. He is eondttclitius . 1556. {3Ir. Vanghan.) If that were the just way of reckoning, would it not have been optional under the statutes, that instead of them giving him five marks they should give him two marks if they could get him ? — {The Provost.) His salary is fixed. 1557. Therefore, although he is conduetitius, he does not stand in the position of a person making a bargain, but his salary is fixed ? — Yes. 1558. And all the incidents which belong to it as a fixed salary belong to the Fellows' allowances which are also fixed V — ( 3Ir. Bateheldor.) But the Fellows have the property given to them absolutely. 1559. {Mr. Vaughan.) For the common benefit of the college. It is not their own possession ? — Every- thing is comprehended in it. This statute is merely directory, and it directs how the portion of every member of the college is to be given, and I take it that any abuses of the statutes may be corrected. 1560. Would you refer to the passage ? — It is in the charter itself. 1561. But you are referring to some passage in the charter ? — I was merely giving the general effect. 1562. But the property under the statutes is not given to them foi' their own personal use ? — I will produce !>efore you an oflice copy of the charter. 1563. {Lord J.y\itelton.) There are six charters here ? — I thinly it woiild be convenient to have a translated copy which has been used in evidence. 1 take it that in a legal point of view the words in all the charter are most comprehensive. The whole property is given to the college and the corporation — to the Provost and college. You will see the words there — to have, hold, and enjoy to themselves and their successors for ever, for the maintenance of the said Provost and college for the time being. 1564. {Mr. Vaughan.) Do you mean that there was no trust in the Provost and Fellows to pay to the Head Master the sum ? — The Provost and Fellows must obey the statutes, and whenever they abuse them in any way, they are amenable to the visitor, and indeed they are amenable to anybody, for any- body can file a bill, or make an application to the Attorney-General to file an information against them. That is the way the law provides for it. But you will find that the whole of the possessions of the college are conveyed to the Provost and college for PCBLIC SCHOOLS COMMISSION : —MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 55 their support, to find them in food, maintenance, and everytliing else that is necessary. 1565. To whom do you say that extends ? — To the Provost and Fellows. 1566. And also to the scholars, I presume ? — The Provost and Fellows are bound to carry out the statute's. 156". Do you conceive that the scholars come under the denomination of college, or only the Provost and Fellows ? — The Provost and Fellows. 1568. Am I to underst.ind that according to your view of the matter they would be perfectly justified in making an allowance of lOd. a week only to the scholars ? — All I can say is, that they are bound to obey the statutes. 1569. Would not that be an obedience to the statutes paying the scholars lOrf. a week ? — Here are the statutes to speak for themselves — here are the charters to speak for themselves. The college have to obey the directions of the founder, under the super- vision of the visitor, and it is open to any of her Majesty's subjects, if they find any abuse in this establishment, to seek the remedy, and the remedy would be found at once. 1570. I wish you to see just for a moment to what that would lead, according to your views. By one of the statutes it is ordained that lOrf. a week shall be given to the scholars for their maintenance at all sea- sons. According to your view, surely it would follow that the college would fulfil its duty to the scholars, and obey the statutes by giving them lOrf. a week ? —No, that is not my view. 1571. How then do you distinguish the case of the scholars from that of the schoolmaster ? — The masters are to oliey the statutes, and the statutes direct that the scholars are to be clothed and fed. The question is, whether the college do not do that which the statutes require them at this day, and if they do not, they are amenable. 1572. Are you aware that the statutes say, not that they are to give them food, but food at the rate of lOrf. a week ? — I think you would find it impracti- cable to carry out an ancient law like that. Regard must be had to die fashion of the times as far as possible, and the college are amenable to this extent, that they are bound to provide for the scholars. It is a question of money and expense. We know very well that you cannot feed a colleger for 10«?. a week. That is quite impossible. 1573. But apply ihe same rule to the Head Master, namely, that you would carry out the statutes accord- ing to their spirit as applied to the time. Should not tfaat prineiplle be applied to the master as well as to the sch^rs ? — Yes ; there are the statutes and ■charters which speak for themselves. (Mr. BatcheMor.) It does not become me to offer an opinion ; but if it is a question of carrying out the intentions of the founder, I think you will find, on examination that these intentions are carried out. 1574. You still say they are bound to carry out the intentions of the founder as well with regard to the Head Master as to the scholars ? — They are bound to carry out the whole of the statutes. 1575. (Lord Clarendon.) You say here, " It will " be observed that in the improvements already " effected, no advantage has been allowed to accrue " to the Provost and Fellows personally." I have no desire to detract from the merits of the Provost and Fellows, but I do not see in these Improvements that have taken place partly througli t^ie subscriptions of old Etonians, and partly through the generosity of individuals, how any advantage could possibly have been taken by the Provost and Fellows; and therefore I do not see how they can claim any credit on that head. I say this without the least desire to detract from the merits of the Provost and Fellows ? — (3Ir. Dupuis.) We do not wish to claim credit for any- thing we have done. We have tried to do our duty for the last 25 years, but as to doing more than that, none of us make any claim at all. We hope we have done our duty in improving as we have for the last 25 years, and we hope that that improvement is not quite at an end yet. But I assure you, my Lord, that it never struck me before that we had wished to claim any credit on inserting the words " vantage has been allowed to accrue to the Provost " and Fellows personally." Certainly not, 1576. It certainly did strike us as claiming some credit ? — If it struck you in that way, I wish we had not put it in. 1577. {Sir S. Northcote.) If you had improved your property, and leased your property, so improved^ and taken fines, that would have been an advantage to yourselves personally, would it not ? — On the con- trary, we have sacrificed many fines. 1578. {Lord Lyttclton.') That expression with re- gard to tlie Head and lower masters being bound to teach without receiving anything needs explanation. You say that .as the number of oppidans has increased to an extent which has rendered it impossible to comply with the statutes in this respect, provision has been made from time to time for the maintenance and support of others, besides the Head and lower masters, beyond what is contemplated by the statute through payment by the boys themselves. Do you mean that the Head and lower masters were bound by the statutes to teach all the boys who might come to them for nothing. But that implies that the number should be a practicable number for two persons to teach ? — ( The Provost.) Yes. 1579. And you mean that in consequence of the increase in the number, an increase in the number of masters has become necessary ? — {Mr. Dupuis.) Yes. 1580. Does that increase in the number of masters necessarily throw any increased expense on the college ? — No ; I do not see how it does. 1581. {Sir S. Northcote.) I should like to ask you this question. When you say that by your arrange- ment of the property belonging to the college you have laid the foundation of a considerable increase of revenue at a future time, do you refer among other things to the exchanges which you have effected ? — Yes ; partly to the exchange which we mentioned the other day between the Crown property at Eton and the college property at Haverstock Hill. 1582. That is to say, that you have exchanged property in London for property at Eton with advan- tage ? — Yes. 1583. The property you gave up in London was properly which you might have leased, and deiived an advantage from the fines? — It was leased, and we did receive fines from it, but a large portion of these fines, &c., has been sacrificed and lost. 1584. The property that you have taken at Eton is not leased ?^No ; it is all let at rack rent. 1585. That tlien has been rather to the loss of the Provost and Fellows ? — To the loss of the Provost and Fellows personally, and to the benefit of the funds of the college. 1 586. That is what you allude to, perhaps, whea you say that in these improvements no advantage has been allowed to accrue to the Provost and Fellows personally ? — Yes ; and with reference also to other 'leases which have not been renewed. {Mr. Batcheldor.) I think the new improvements refer to the improvements of the college, such as the increased accommodation in the ibuildings, and the general improved condition of the college. 1587. {Lord Clarendon.) Yes, that is what I understood — the general improvements in the state of the college — the improvement in the commons, lodging, and so on ? — Yes, fhe improvement in the lead a great deal to that. 1588. Therefore it was that I said, that when a great deal of these things had been done by subscrip- tions from old Etonians, and through the generosity of others, I did not see how it was possible that the Provost and Fellows could obtain any private benefit to themselves, which I am sure they would not wish to have obtained even if they could have done so ?— {Mr. Dupuis.) They certainly had no wish to do so, G 4 ETON, liev. no adl C.O.Goodford Itev. G. J. Dupuis. Ilev. J. Wilder. T. Batcheldor, Esq. 7 July 1862. buildings 5G PUBLIC SCHOOLS COMMISSION : — MINUTES OF FS'IDENCE.' KTON. liee. C. O. Good ford. liev. G. J. Dnpuii. lii'f. J. Wilder. T. Batclieldor, Esq. 7 July 18fi2. nnil it was wholly unnecessary to introduce these words into the answer. 1589. {Lord Lyttelton.) The college do not acknow- ledge any obligation to increase the payment of the Head Master accnrdin<; to the number of oppidans ? They pay the Head Master six guineas a year. 1590. But you do not admit any obligation to in- crease his stipend according to the increase in the number of boys ? — No, we do not. 1591. {Mr. Thompson.) Something was said about the increase in the value of money. The calculation can be made here at once. Supposing the statutable allowance to all the members of the college to be increased pro rata according to the diminished value of money, what would really be the stipends of the Provost and the Head Master ?— The Provost's sti- pend originally was 7oZ. a year, and the Head Master's 16/. If you multiply these sums by the figures given, in one case you will get 1,200/. and in the other 256Z. 1592. {Mr. Vanghan.) But what do you do with regard to the Fellows. Does not the same analogy hold good with repect to them ?—{3Ir. Batcheldor.) That is quite right. 1593. Is that the answer which is given the question, namely, that the same thing must be done with reference to the Fellows ; could you make the calculation ou the same basis in regard to the Fellows ? — {3Ir. Tlwmjnon.) It would bo 160/. to the Fel- lows, 1,200/. to the Provost, and 256/. to the Head Master. 1594. {Mr. Vaughan.) I should like to pursue this point upon the figures now that we have got upon it. Is it the case that a proportionate increase of the Head Master's and Fellows' stipends would give to the Provost 1,200/. to the Head Master 256/., and to the Fellows 1 60/. ?— Yes. 1595. What is the actual pecuniary benefit that is derived from the whole of the revenues of the college by the Fellows ? — {Mr. Dupuis.) It is down there. 1596. What is the actual average pecuniary emo- lument derived by each Fellow, and the average pecuniary emolument derived liy the whole of the Fellows from all the revenues of the college according to this table ? — I do not quite understand your question. 1597. What is the average pecuniary emolument derived from the revenues of the college by the Fel- lows ? — I must refer you to the table. 1598. What is the amount as you have it there ?,— The payments are not all equal, because some of the Fellows have more than others. 1599. AVhat is the average, taking them alto- cether? — £801 \Qs. I should think would he the answer. 1600. What would the Head Master's stipend amount to if it were increased in the same proportion to that 801/. 16s. It would be positively according to the dimhuition in the value of money, you say, 256/., and according to the same diminution the stipend of the Fellows would be 160/. What should be the amount of the Head Master's stipend if it were in- creased rolativel}' in the same proportion as the stipend of the Fellows has been increased, which you say is 801/. IGs. ?— {Sir S. Northcote.) That would be a rule of three sum. 1601. {Mr. Vanghan.) Perhaps you will do it for us ? — {Mr. lintcheldor.) It should come from you. 1602. {Sir S. A^orthcote.) 1 make it 1,280/.?— {3fr. Batcheldor.) I should think it is. But is not that something like furnishing evidence against the college, as it ■were ? 1603. What we want to know is the proportion. It would be as 801/. 16*. is to 160/. so would 256/. be to 1,280/. In point of fact it would be about one- fifth. If you multiply 256/. by five you would get at the exact proportion, 1,280/. ? 1604. {Mr. Vaiiglian.) That is to say, the equit- able relation of the Head Master's salary to the stipend of the Fellows would be 1,280/. ?— ( 7'Ae Provost.) Provided he has a claim beyond his mere salary. 1605. I thought you admitted there was an equit- able claim ; that it was your view that he had an equitable claim to the same proportionate increase as the Fellows ? — I should not say he has. {Mr. Dt/piiis.) The Provost seems to have misun- derstood the question. ( The Provost.) What I said was, that the property- was given to the college, and that out of it they wero directed to give a certain salary to the Head Master, but I did not at all conceive that they were bound to give more than that. 1606. But equitably ; I have only put the question equitably. The founder having fixed the stipend for him and also for the Fellows, is it not equitable that in the course of time his salary should be increased in proportion to theirs ; and if so, supposing the Fellows' present p.ayment to be an equitable emolu- ment, taking into consideration the diminution, in the value of money at the present time, would not 1,280/. derived from the ixivenues of the college be an equitable proportionate increase in the salary of the Head Master ? — (Mr. Dupuis.) It seems to me that that conclusion would make the emolument of the Head Master equal to that of the Provost. 1607. I did not enter into that. I thought it irre-. levant to ask whether the Fellow? had not Ixen in- creased out of proportion to the Provost upon a point of comparison between them a^'d the Head Master. 1 wished to avoid opening g, second questiou , at the same time ? — It certainly follows. {The Provost.) I should receive a great deal more than the Head Master, but your calculation brings it to very near the same sum. 1 60S. ( Sir S. Northcote.) According to the calcu- lations that have been presented to us, the Head Master's salary in proportion to the Fellows' stipend ought to be 1,280/. a year ; what ought to be the salary of the Provost in proportion to that of the Head Master, talking that at 1,2001. a year. Ought it not to be 6,000/. a year?— r, (Mr. Batcheldor.): Yqs, that i^ right. {3Jr. Dupids.) And I daj;e say the Proyost would not oliiect. 1609. {Mr. VaugJian.y I will follow tlii^ up by owe question. Is it not the fact that the increase of the emoluments of the Fellows has very much exceedeci the proportionate increase of the Provost's emoluments in course of time ? — {Mr. Batcheldor.) That cannot be, you see, because the Provost is to have double the amount of the Fellows, and he is to share in every- thing. 1610. But had he not very mucli more than that, by the original statute of the founder. Surely he had very much more than twice as much; he h&i- seven times as much as the fellows ? {3Ir. D-upuis.) He has more than twice as mueh now. You cannot dispute the figures when the pro- portion is assigned. 1611. {Mx. Thompson.) Do you know how th« dividends are made ? — There is no record of them. ( The Promost.) 75/. to 10/. is the proportion. 1612. Are you aware of any tradition of the value of the provostship in the time of Henry VIII. inde- ])endently of all the advantages which a salary of 100/. a year gives ? — {Mr. Dvpuis.) Was not that since Henrv VIlI.'s time ? 1613. Sir Thomas Wyatt estimates it. It will be found in Carlyle ? — It was within 100/. a year then. 1614. How do you account for the difference be- tween the estimate of 100/. a year and the preset t payment of 75/. ? — The difference, I presume, be- tween the value of money iii Henry VIII.'s time and Henry VI.'s time. 1615. {Mr. Vaughan.) That estimate was mere rumour. Is it not the case, on looking at the statutes to which we are referring, that the Provost was to receive a certain pecuniary amount in do- mestic service ? — Yes, 4 PUBLIC SCHOOLS COMMISSION :--MINUXES OF EVIDENCE. 57 1616. A certain pecuniary amount ? — Yes ; it is fixed. 1617. In addition to the stipend ? — Yes. 1618. (Mr. Thompson.) I tliinlc tlie express words are " servants' wages " ? — {The Provost.) And his commons. (^Mr. Diipi/is.) He does not now receive commons. 1619. (Lord Clarendon.) Mr. Dupuis said tliat Mr. Batclieldor could f'nrnisli some iut'orniation about the visitation. INIr. Batclieldor, when Eton College was trnusl'errcd I'rora the diocese of Lincoln to the diocese of Oxford, can you tell us whether there was anj' caveat put in by the Bishop of Oxford respecting the visitation being transferred toliini, whether there was any assertion of his right by the Bishop of Lin- coln, and whether the college laid any case before counsel ? — {Mr. Batcheldor.) I almost forget. I rather think some opinion was taken upon it. {Mr. Diipuis.) Mr. Bethell, the present Lord Chan- cellor, was our counsel in that case. {Mr. Batcheldor.) It was a Privy Council cascw {Mr. Dupuis.) The Bishop of Lincoln solemnly enjoined us not to obey the Bishop of Oxford, and sent us a letter stating that if the Bishop of Oxford made any claim we were enjoined not to obey it. 1620. The examination, as far as tlic duties and attributes of the Provost are concerned, being now brought to a close, there is one matter to which I should like to call the attention of the Provost. Although not immediately connected with our in- quiry, 3et as it has been brought before us, and as I think it is of so much conse(|uencc in itself, I am sure that Dr. Goodford will consider that we can hardly pass it by in silence. It is a passage in Mr. Paul's evidence, page 53, in which he says, " It will nut appear to the Commissioners that I ." go beyond the spirit, though it may be beyond the " letter of their inquiries, if in answer to their two " last questions I mention some points which appear " to work ill in the general system of the college and " school. Eight years' experience as Conduct, part " of the duties of which position is to take a certain " share of the work in the i)arish as curate, under the " Provost, has brought with it a strong conviction " that the union of the parish with the collegia is " most disadvantageous to the parish. The rector is, " in the lirst place, mainly occupied in the duties " which devolve on him as Provost, or as rector of " Mapledurham, while he is at the .-iiune time so con- " trolled by the opinions of the rest of the college " body that the parish has actually not one but eight " rulers"?— {Mr. Dupuis.) I deny that most distinctly. 1621. {Lord Clarendon.) "The hours of service " in the college chapel clash also with the curate's " work in the parish, while the traditional feeling of " ' town ' towards 'gown,' which exists at Eton, as " well as at the universities, prevents that hearty and " cordial understanding which should exist between " the clergy and their parishioners. Practically the " Conduct, who is also the assistant in college, is ''• almost wholly withdrawn from the jiarish, and the " work of the other conducts in college chapel is " taken in great measure by him." Novs-, whether that statement be correct or not, it involves so much that is material to the inhabitants and congregation of that parish that it is impossible we could conclude our examination respecting the Provost without calling his attention to it, and asking him whether he can give us any information upon the point, and how far he .agrees with Mr. Paul 'f — {The Provost.) With respect to what Mr. Paul says about the hours of service clashing with the curate's work in the parish, and the Conduct being the master in college, these two offices are now .separate, and the present master in college is no longer a Conduct. {Mr. Dupuis.) That difficulty, if any, has been removed. 1622. {Lord L7jttelton.) Are there two Conducts ? 1 Uev. G. J. Diipuii. Uev. J. Wilder. T. Batcheldor, 7 July 1862. — There are three Conducts. The two oilices are ETON, quite distinct. 1623. {Lord Clarendon.) What share does the ^^''■ rector take in the duties of the parish ?— The general ^- ^- ^o»<'fo'-'l. superintendence. I am not the rector of the parish myself. 1624. My question is, how far you agree with Mr. Paul ? — I am not the rector of the parish. 162.J. But how far do you agree with what Mr. Paul says in respect to the inconvenience which attends the union of the parish with the college ? — I have not observed the existence in the parish of any of the feelings wliich Mr. Paul speaks of. 1626. {Lord Lj/ttelton.) Nor any of the disadvan- tages which he sees ? — No, nor any of the disadvan- tages. 1627. {Lord Devon.) He states that virtually the parish is governed not by one, but by eight rulers. Now does not that imply that there are from time to time various interferences ? — I suppose that is it. 1628. Do you concur, judging from your own experience, in thinking that evil may result, or has resulted, either to the town or college in consequence of the union of Eton and the college ':* — My experience is short, but I have never seen anything of the kind. 1629. Nor during the time you were resident in Eton ? — No. (Mr. Dupuis.) When Mr. Paul mentions eight rulers, I dare say I am included in that num- ber, l)ecause I .nni one of the seven Fellows. I can only say that I have never in the slightest degree shared in parish business since I have lieen a Fellow, and, as to there being eight rulers in the parish, it is an error alto}j;etlier. 1630. {Lord J^i/ttelton.) Do you mean that practi- cally s)H'aking the Provost alone has the ordering of the ]>arish 'i — I do not consider that the Provost is in the ordinary sense rector of Eton. He gets no emoluments, because they all go to the general fund of the college, and he does not receive a shilling. 1631. (Lord Clarendon.) Who is responsible for the carrying on and management of the parish school ? — I suppose h(^ would be, if rector, but he has never been instituted. 1632. But jiractically he is, I suppose ? — I suppose the Provost is. 1633. (Lord I^yttelton.) You say that the other Fellows exercise no superintendence 'i — No. 1634. (Lord Clareudon.) The Provost is not instituted, and the Fellows exercise no superintend- ence. Who then is practically responsible for the general mauagentent of the parish school ? — The Conducts. 163.5. Who fills, with regard to the parish school at Eton, the position filled by the clergyman at Mapledurham, who nomin.ates the schoolmaster ? — (Mr. Batcheldor.) The parish school is under the management of trustees. It is called Porny's school under the nnxnagement of trustees. 1636. Who fills the position in regard to the charities which is ordinarily filled by the clergyman ? — The Conducts attend the school meetings with the trustees. The Provost is a trustee also of the site of the new .school. I prepared a deed of exchange by which the old school is given to Mr. Penn, and the site of the new school is conveyed to the Provost of Eton as rector of the parish. What the Provost means is that he has only been instituted to the provostsliip of Eton. 'J'here is a little jealousy with respect to the two dioceses, and the Bishop inserts a clause in his instrument of in-;titution to save the right of the Bishop of Oxford as diocesan. That is just the point. 1637. (I^ord Devon.) Who visits the sick ? — The Conducts. 1638. Who is summoned to the archidiaconal visitation ? — No one. The Conducts are summoned to the Bishop's visitation. 1639. (I^ord Lyttelton.) Alone ?— (J//-. Dupuis.) There has been a recent summons of a Conduct by the Bishop of Oxford as diocesan. H $8 PUBLIC SCHOOLS, COMMISSION :~MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. ETON. Rev. C. O. Good/oid. Rev. G, J. Dupuis. Rev. J. WiUer. T. BatcheUor, Esq. 7 July 1862. 1640. Is there any institutiou whatever ; is anyone ever iuslitutfil to thc> cure of souls there, analogous to the case of an ordinary parish 'i—{Mr. Butcheldor.) No. 1641. Then is the ease practically this ; that although formerly the Trovost and Fellows had the cure of souls practically, the Provost alone has the general superintendence over the atl'airs of the parish, and that, with respect to the ordinary duties done by the ordinary clergyman, they are performed by the Conducts, subject to the superintendence of^and re- sponsible to the I'rovost ?— (T//c Piovost.) Yes. 1G42. {Lord Devon.) Then does the circumstance of the Provost representing the rector of the parish of Eton render it impossible for him to hold any other living ? — {Mr. Dupuis.) No, it does not. There are no proceeds, with the exception of about 2ol. a year. (Mr. Batcheldor.) With a sum in lieu of tithes. lG4a. {Lord Ly Helton.) What is the value of the living ? — The titl'ies were commuted at 240/. 1644. {Lord Clarendon.) Into what fund is that paid ? — The general fund of Eton college. 1645. {Mr. Vauyhan.) Is the Provost's name ever used in deeds at all as representing both Provost and Fellows ? — The Provost and college. {Mr. Dupuis.) The leases require the corporate seal of the college. {Mr. Batcheldor.) I think you will find that at the time the diocese was divided, the Bishop of Oxford left the Bishop of Lincoln the institution to the living of Eton, but reserved the institution to the provostship. 1646. {Lord Clarendon.) But are you of opinion that the parish is well satisfied with the existing state of things, and would not like any change ? — I do not think they would. I know a great many of the inhabitants of Eton, and they would not like it. They have told me so. 1647. {Lord Devon.) With respect to the other point of the clashing of the hours of service in the college with the parish duties, would you say that they do actually clash with the services in the parish church ? (^ The Provost.) The church has a service at three o'clock. 1648. How is the service in the parish church provided for ? — By the three Conducts. {Mr. Dupuis.) The expenses of the college chapel and the church in the town are all maintained by the college. 1649. The church was built by you, I think ?— It was mainly built by us, helped by contributions and donations. 1650. {Mr. Thompson.) What is the population ? __I think about 3,000. 1651. {Lord Lyttelton.) That is including all the Eton boys ? — Yes. 1652. {Sir S. Northcote.) I would just ask this question in regard to Mr. Paul. He was not only Con- duct, but employed in the working of the school ? — Not in the working of the school. 1653. But the working of the college. Was it found that a Conduct being taken off from the parish work, it could be carried on ? — Yes. 1654. Supposing that to be found inconvenient, the usual course would be to employ the whole ser- vices of the three Conducts in parish >vork ? — ( The Provost.) They have now the whole of the parish work to do. 1655. Would not that arrangement meet the evil complained of ? — Yes. 1656. {Lord Lyttelton.) The college admit that the Head Master is a member of the college under the statutes ? — {Mr. Dupuis.) He is a member of the college, but has no voice in the management. 1657. Under the statute is not the Head Master a member of the foundation ? — Certainly. 1658. With regard to what Mr. Batcheldor has said respecting the charters apart from the legal effect of them, and apart from the question of fines, is it fully admitted that the college hold the whole of the property equitably and practically in trust for the benefit of the school ? — The property is vested in the Provost and Fellows absolutely, I presume. 1659. I do not put the ex.act legal construction upon it ; but, apart from the fines, is it admitted that the whole of the property is held by the Provost and Fellows ? — {Mr. Batcheldor.) No, by the Pro- vost and college. 1660. {Lord Devon.) The Provost and college? — The leases run so. 1661. (Lord Lyttelton.) Do you not contend that the Provost and college mean the Provost and Fel- lows ? — Yes, and there can be no stronger proof of that than the fact that no legal documents are ever executed by any one except the Provost and College, under the common seal. 1662. I wish to know whether you admit a virtual trust in respect of the whole property? — The statutes direct that they are bound to perform certain duties. 1663. Is not that a virtual trust, notwithstanding the~ unconditional words of the charter ? — I should say it is. 1664. W^e are referred to the charter, and we are told that it conveys the property absolutely to the Provost and Fellows. But, it is conveyed to them in trust for the benefit of the college ? — (vl/r. Batcheldor.) Allow me to observe that I was particularly guarded in what I said, which was that they were bound liy the statutes to perform everything that the statutes required. There can be no doubt about that. 1665. {3Ir. Vaughan.) The whole question arose with respect to the equitable performance of those re- quirements of the statutes in the course of time. The legal effect of the statutes gave, I apprehend, nothing to the Fellows for their own benefit exclusive of the benefit of other persons and interests in the college. But the question has been what is the just and equitable effect of the words used in the statutes in regard to the distribution of the revenues as between Fellows and Head Master for their own benefit re- spectively ? — Will you allow me to say that the pre- liminary observations to all your questions are very difficult to be made out. You mean, I presume, that everything was left in trust for the school ? 1666. {Lord Lyttelton.) Yes? — Then I may say that any one who has the responsibility cast upon him of looking at all these things, on the part of the college, would be rather startled, because, if the col- lege agree to that, they would be just, as you say, mere trustees. 1667. {Mr. Vaughan.) Observe what the language of the founder is. In the first place, we establish and ordain and will, &c. &c., a certain college at Eton, a Provost who shall stand at the head of all persons, all possessions, all property, and all goods of the college, according to our ordinances and statutes? — That would coine in as a matter of course. 1668. {L^ord Lyttelton.) It applies to the whole property which is subject to the control of the sta- tutes ? — Exactly. Nobody would attempt to deny that. 1669. {Mr. Vaughan.) Then the question is, what is the equitable mode of administering the property according to the statutes ? — I believe the Provost and Fellows will not for a moment attempt to deny that they are bound to perform the duties cast upon them by the statutes. 1670. {Lord Lyttelton.) Clearly so ? — It is worthy of remark that the instrument is dated several years after, namely, 1442. 1671. {Lord Devon.) No, that is the great charter? — I think, if you refer to the date of the charter of 1446, you will find that it recapitulates every one of the payments mentioned in that great charter. 1672. {Lord Clarendon.) The present income. Dr. Goodford, of the Head Master is derived from en- trance fees and annual payments. I see, with refer- ence to his emoluments, they are at present derived from an annual payment from each boy. King's scholars PUBLIC SCHOOLS COMMISSION: — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 59 excepted : from an entrivnco paid by each l)oy in the ui>per school ; ani:) Do you know at all what is about the average stay of the Head Masters at Eton ? — I have never struck an average. 1700. You do not know at all ? — No. {Mr. Diipiiis.) It is very various, Dr. Goodall's stay was 8 years, Dr. Keate's 25, Dr. Hawtrey's 19, Dr. Goodf'ord's 9 : those are the last four Head Masters. Dr. Heath was 10, Dr. Davies 18. I cannot go further than that. 1 701. I was asking in reference to the power which the Head Master would have usually of saving out of his income, and the number of years he might calcu- late upon for that purpose ? — -Yes. 1702. (Lord Clarcjidn/i to the Provost.) You say, " The original number of masters I gather from the " statutes to have been two only. The present uum- " ber of classical masters is 23, and of mathematical " eight." The present number of classical masters that is ineluiling the Head and lower master ? — l''es. 1703. So that there would be 21 upper and lower classical niastei-s in the school ? — Yes. The division is shown in the table bolow, Vioth as to boys and masters in the upper and lower school, and the pro- portion of masters to boys. 1704. Here is the actual statement : "The present " rule is to keep the proportion as near as possible of " one classical master to 40 boys." I suppose this must have been a matter of frequent and anxious consideration both with the Provost, the Head Master, and those whose duty it was more immediately to carry on the work of the school ; and they have arrived at the conclusion that the proper proportion as between masters and boys is, that there should bo 40 boys to one master. Do you think that is the right number ? — I think it is about the right number. 1705. Y'ou are quite convinced from your own observation. Dr. Goodford, that it is not too many boys for one master ? — I do not think so. 1706. Do you thiuk that an assistant master can, with satisfaction to himself, superintend the tuition of 40 boys ?— I believe so. 1707. Would 3'ou send your son to an academy where there were 40 boys and only one master ? — No. 1708. Then why do you think that one assistant master would be sufficient ? — The cases are so totally different that they do not bear any analogy one to the other. 1709. In what way are they different ? — Because these boys after preparing their work with their own private tutors are all spread abroad under the several different masters, they are all cut up under separate masters, and the whole thing is totally different to the case of a school in which one master has the whole superintendence. 1710. Have not the assistant masters in addition a great many private pupils of their own to attend to ? — Besides the divisions in school ? 1711. Besides the 40 boys under their charoe ? les. 1712. In addition to them ? — He has 40 boys in the school, and perhaps 40 boys out, private pupils. 1713. So that ho has in point of fiict 80 boys under his charge ? — Some of the boys he has in his division may be his own private pupils and some not. 1714. He has, in ftict, the tuition, either in or out of school of 80 boys ? — No, because the different tutors have also the tuition of these boys in the school. 1715. He takes them as private pupils in addition to the boys he may have in his class ? — Y^es. 1716. What is he understood to do for the 10/. 10.?. which his ])rivate pupils pay him ? — He hears them each iesson before they go into school ; he looks over all their composition, and if they are in his house, he has a general moral superintendence over them ; ilines with them and lives with them. 1717. That is with his own 40 boys ? — Y^^s, with such as are in his house. 1718. That is the maximum ? — Y"es. 1719. And in addition to this he has part of the tuition in class of 40 bovs ? Yes. 1720. (Lord Lyttelton.) Some of them being his own pupils ? — Yes. 1721. (Lord Clarendon.) Do you think that is not too much for one man to do day after day with ad- vantage to the boys who are under him ?— No, I do not think it is too much, taught as they are in that way. 1722. Do you think that is the general opinion of the assistant masters of the school and of the Provost and Fellows generally ? — I cannot undertake to say whether it was the opinion of the Provost and Fellows at the time I was Head Master, but it is my own ojsinion. (Mr. Dupuis.) I quite agree with Dr. Goodford's answer to your Lordships, that one master is quite competent to manage 40 boys of his own, and to take a class of 40 more in the school. 1723. (Sir S. Northcote.) Supposing there were 800 boys in the school ; according to that, the pro- portion of masters would be 20 in the school ? — Y'es. 1724. Each of those masters could not have 80 boys under him, that would give 1,600. It only means that it should be at the rate of one master to 40 boys in the school, and that each master should take a certain proportion of the teaching of the boys ? — Of his own pupils. 1725. I am not speaking of them. He takes the whole education of the 40 boys whom he has as pri- vate pupils, not the whole education in school of 40 more ? — Oh dear no ! 1726. {3Ir. Vaughan.) Do I understand Dr. Good- ford to adhere to the original distinction which he made between the 40 boys which the assistant master has of his own private pupils and the 40 boys under one master in a private school ? — Y'es. 1727. What, then, is the difference between the c.ise which Lord Clarendon put, of 40 boys being entirely under one master, supposing there only to be one master and the case of Eton, viz., a number of boys in a public school under several masters, the propor- tion of which was one master to 40 boys ? — I do not quite understand. 1728. I thought you drew a distinction between having 40 boys under one master, when there was only one master in a private school, and the case of a public school in which there were several masters, each master having 40 l>oys under him in one class ? — Y'-es. 1729. What is the distinction between that and a private school in which there are 40 boys who have one master only to instruct them ? — There is a great distinction. 1730. What is the distinction you draw between the two cases ? — A man who has 40 boys in one class has to teach them all the same lesson and the same things as one pupil. 1731. Is the ground of the distinction you make this, that where a single master has 40 boys, he has them all in different states of proficiency, and there- fore they cannot be all taught together with the same benefit ; but that when one master out of 20 at a public school has 40 boys under his charge, he has by the arrangement of the school 40 boys all in the same state of proficiency, which enables him very much to economise his time ? — In school he has not his private pupils. 1732. Then with regard to the private pupils, and Avith regard to the work he does as private tutor, has he not exactly the same difficult case to deal with which a single master would experience with 40 boys in a school of his own ? — No. 1733. What is the difference between the two cases ? — In the case of the public school, when the 40 boys which an assistant master has as private tutor, are separate from him in the school, they are probably engaged with other masters, but in the case of the private school with 40 boys and only one master, when he is employed with a portion of them his assistance is lost to the rest, and they have no other master to go to because they have only him to PtTBLIC SCHOOLS COMMISSION : — MINUTES OP EVIDENCE. 61 look for inslruction, consequently they have nothing to do. 1734. But cannot they he preparing work for him at another time ? — Tlicy may be. 1735. And with regard to the private tutor's work, in order to instruct those boys by private tuition, he must devote as many scp;u'ate hours to that instruc- tion as the master of a private school who had 40 boys under his charge would have to do ? — No, I do not think he need, because those boys who go away from liim would go to another master and receive instruction. 1736. In reference to the private instruction only, they do not go to other masters for their private tuition ? — No. 1737. I am speaking in reference to that which is taught as private tuition. Is he not, in reference (o tliat work, in exactly the same position as he would be if he were tlie single master of a school with 40 boys under his charge ? — Supposing that the master of his school had wliat he called public work and private. 1738. I am speaking only of the tutor's private work. Is he not in the same position with regard to those 40 boys that a private schoolmaster with 40 boys would be in regard to his whole work. With regard to pri- vate work is not his case exactly the same ? — Very nearly. 1739. (Lord Lyttclton.) There is in fact a dis- tinction, because the private pupils have so much of their work done elsewhere that it is difficult, to compare the amount of work that he has to do with his private pupils with, the amount that a private schoolmaster has to do who has no assistant for the same number of boj's ? — Yes. 1740. We understand that no boy at Eton is wholly taught by any one master ? — No. 1741. It is possible he may be under his own tutor in school, but in the great majority of cases that is not so ? — Yes. 1742. {Mr. Vaifffhan.) I suppose it would be the case that as long as the private tutor is the person who may happen to teach his private pupil in the school division, so long he would be wholly taught by one teacher ? — Yes. 1743. {Lord Lyttelton.') You think that the boys being taught by several masters tends to equalize the work and lessen it in its burden ? — Yes. The founder only provided two masters for 70 boys, and such others as might come to learn grammar. 1744. {Mr. Vaughan.) Do you know wla'ther there was any difterence in the method of instructing the boys when the school was founded in tJie 16th century as comjiarcd with the mode adopted in the present day which would affect the numbers that could be taught by one master ? — Any difterence ? 1745. Any difterent mode of instruction which might affect the number which a single master might teach ? — No, I do not. 1746. {Lord Clarcndo/i.) I should like to call Dr. Goodford's attention to a passage in Sir J. Coleridge's lecture. Sir J. Coleridge is entitled to the respect of everybody, and he says, — " I am informed that the " present Head Master has prospectively restricted " each new master to 40 pupils, but abstains from '•' imposing this rule on those who are ah-eady in the " school ou the principle of respecting vested in- " terests ; this seems to me a mistaken application of " a just principle. The tutors are for the sake of the " pupils, but this is to consider pupils as made for " the sake of the tutors. Must that which never " ought to have been be continued indefinitely be- " cause individual tutors have an interest in the " abuse. I can hardly believe that any one of that " respectable body would desire that this exception " should be made in his favour. Twenty assistants may " seem a large number, but it may be doubted whether " the present system can be perfectly and faithfully " carried out by 20 when the pupils exceed 800." I must say I entirely agree with Sir J. Coleridge in that, and I will ask you is it the case that you did not propose to carry it into effect in reference to the tutors who had more ? — No. With res])ect lo those who were a])pointed under diftLrent regulations 1 did not enforce it. 1747. But they were not appointed, were they, on the understanding that they should take any number of pupils whether tliey could do justice to them or not ? — There was no restriction as to the number of pupils which they were to take. 1748. Is it not the duty either of the Head Master or of the Provost and Fellows to see whether the assistant masters are doing their duty. If it is found that they have taken too many private pupils, is it not the duty of the superior authority to interfere and restrict them, or do you consider that an assistant master is at liberty to do exactly as he pleases iu that respect ? — I should not consider it my duty lo restrict any man from taking any number of private pupils who was not restricted on his appointment. 1749. I do not see, then, what is the use of invest- ing the Head Master and the Provost and Fellows with the supreme authority if tliey consider them- selves forbidden to interfere with what they believe to be mischievous for the boj-s, out of respect for tho vested interest of the tutors ; because that is what it really comes to ? — No, it docs not come to that, because the parents themselves are most anxious that tlieir boys should be placed with a private tutor who has a great many other boys, and they much prefer it to placing them with a private tutor who has only a few. 1750. Is it not admitted by restricting the number of boys which one tutor can take to 40, that for any one to have over 40 is prejudicial to the arrangements of the school, and prejudicial, I apprehend, to the boys themselves. Then, if that is so, ought not the authority of the Head IVIaster to be interposed to pre- vent that which is prejudicial to the boys. If the parents were informed that there were already too manj' boys in a particular house, do you think they would insist upon sending their boys there ? — It was with respect to the number of pupils which a tutor had not the houses in which they live to which the objection applied. 1751. I meant the number of pupils. Do you mean to say that if a parent were informed that a particular assistant master had already got more pupils than he could attend to, that he would insist on sending his boy to him? — I have known instances in which parents have done so. 1752. In spite of the interest they have in getting their boy well attended to ? — They have thought differently. 1753. They have thought that some masters ought to have 40 or more ? — Yes. 1754. {Mr. Thompson.) You think, perhaps, that their idea is that they would rather have for their boy the 70th part of the attention of Mr. A., than the 40th part of the attention of Mr. B. ? — ExadTly so. I would much rather, for instance, that my son should have the 70th part of the services of one gentleman than the 40th part of those of another. I have had instances of parents coming to me and saying, " I " should be glad if you could put my sou with Mr. " So and So," and on its being pointed out that he had already got a very large number of boys as pupils, the reply has been precisely of that kind, that he would rather his son should have the 60th part of one man's attention than that he should have the 40th part of another. 1755. {Lord Li/ttelto/i.) But if the restriction were in force, would he not have been able to have one 40th part of the attention of the master he preferred, instead of onl)^ one 60th ? — Probably he would not be able to obtain that particular tutor for his boy at all, in consequetice of his being always full. 1756. (A Commissioner.) He was full already before? — No master who has been restricted has ever asked me to allow him to increase his number, whereas several parents have come to me and said, " Tiiis " gentleman (the tutor) says he cannot take my boy, ; H 3 ICTON. Rev. C. O. Guodford. Rev. G. J. Dupuii. Rev. .J. Wilder. T. Balcheldor, £sq, 7 July 1862. 62 PUBLIC SCHOOLS COJDIISSION :— MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. ETON. Rev. C. O. Goodford. Jiev. Cf^, Dupuis, Hev. J. Wilder. T. Balcheldv, Esq. 7 Julv lS6i. '■ his number is full, will you not let him do so." All I can sav in reply to that is, that the rule is applied strietly,"and that it is impossible, because his number is full! ' 1757. (Lord Li/ttelton.) Is not your view this, tliat takinsr the facts simply as they .ire, (not con- sidorins whether it is right or not,) a master in eoniin,!r to Eton is subject to considerable payments and charges, and that iie looks forward to having a certain number of pupils for some years, as the only prospect of making his fortune, and is it not your opinion that when a master finds by immemorial usage that there is no restriction on the uumlier of pupils, he looks forward and anticipates having for himself a large number of pupils for some years ? — Yes. 1758. And you looked upon that as a sort of vested interest, a certain prospect which you were not at liberty to take away from him by auy act of yours, though it might well apply to future cases ? — Thar is the view I took of it. 1759. With respect to the exercise of that right as applied to Eton, have you not known masters who have had 100 pupils ?— Yes. (Lord Clarendon.) If you clearly establish what that answer would lead to, you ought to buy out that vested interest. 1760. (Mr Vaitghan.) I wish to arrive at a clear understanding with respect to one point. I think I understood you that the permission of the masters to take more than 40 pupils rested in part on the wishes of (he parents ? — -No. 1761. I misunderstood you perhaps, but I thought you said the arrangements under which a single master might receive, say 44 pupils instead of 40, was justified not only in regard to his own interest but because in some cases it was the wish of the parents that their sons should be the pupil of a particular master ? — No, I do not say that. 1762. {Lord Devon.) What I understood Dr. Goodford to say was that in consequence of the regard he felt for vested interests he permitted some of the masters to have more than 40 boys ? — No, I did not say that. 1763. That you permitted them to retain more ? — Yes, the masters who had the boys already. 1764. (Lord Lyttelton.) You allowed them to con- tinue ? — Yes. 1765. {Lord Devon.) I understood Dr. Goodford further to say, or rather to imply, that one of the circumstances wiiieh induced him to permit some of the masters to retain more than 40 boys, was that in many cases parents have said to him, " Let me send " my boy to Mr. So and So, because although I know " he has more than 40 boys I would rather get the " 50th or 60th part of his attention than the 40th " part of the attention of another master" ? — Yes. 1766. {Mr. Vaughan.) I ask you in that case sup- posing a master to have 40 pupils, and supposing a 41st pupil eame to him under the circumstances you have just mentioned, and that the parent of the 41st child wished to place his son with that master, what do you think would be the wish of the 40 parents who have already a claim on the master's time ? — I can only say that if he does not refuse to take him they cannot help it. 1767. I dare say not, but I will put the question — whatever the 41st parent might wish with respect to placing his boy with that particular tutor, what do you suppose, under such circumst.ances would be the wish of the other 40 parents with regard to the admission of the 41st boy — I mean the 40 parents who had already their sons under him ? — I do not suppose they would make any objection. 1768. {Lord Clarendon.) What is the opinion of Dr. Temple. He has now got 30 boys to each master, and he considers those more than one master can satisfactorily undertake, and he thinks that a master would find quite enough to do if he had a much less number. I believe he considers that 25 is the proper number that a m,aster could satisfactorily undertake? — I do not consider 40 too many. 1769. Ofeonr.se you have read this pamphlet of Sir John Coleridge's ? — Yes, and have talked with Sir J. Coleridge about it. 1770. Just let me ask you how far you agree iu tliis, — "Must that which never ought to have been " be continued indefinitely, because individual tutors " have an interest in the abuse. I can scarcely be- " lieve that any one of that respectable body would " desire that this exception should be made in his " favour," and then comes this note, " I am sorry to " hear that I was over sanguine in that expectation. " I impute no unworthy motives in what I venture " to think a manifest and serious error of judgment. " The proposal on Dr. Goodford's part is the expres- " sion of his deliberate opinion that it is injurious to " the boys to have a larger number than 40 pupils to " each tutor ; great deference was due to that " opinion. It was formed by one whose personal " character entitles him to the greatest respect ; who " certainly would not have formed it without much '' consideration ; who had the best means of know- " ledge; on whom the responsibilities of the school ■' mainly rest, and whom the assistants are bound to '• act under and to aid in his measures for meeting " those responsibilities. Few, if any, I believe, out " of the school will doubt that Dr. Goodford's opinion " was correct as far as it goes ; he may, however, " have been right in yielding ; but this rests only on " grounds which very much increase the responsi- " bility of dissent. Meantime the full execution of " a wise measure is indefinitely postponed, the in- " terest of many hundred boys is seriously affected ; " and whatever be the motives of the assistants it " cannot be denied that the pupils' loss is the tutors' " gain. My opinion of the individuals is such that " I think if this consideration had been present to " their minds, they would have felt, even if not wholly " convinced, that where self interest is concerned " the more delicate decision is also the wiser." I suppose you would not disagree with the opinion of Sir J. Coleridge, " That the interest of mauy hundreds " of boys is seriously affected by this not having been " extended to those who have upwards of 40, and " that whatever l)e the motives for obtaining the " assistance, it is clear that the parent's loss is the " tutors' gain." Do you agree in that ? — I agree that it would be better if uo master had ever had more than 40 pupils, or I should not have expressed that opinion. 1771. And yet you think it was not right for j'ou to have exercised your authority to put a stop to masters taking an increased number of boys, out of respect to vested interests ? — The alterations were attended with such difficulties that I was prevented from carrying them out further than I did. I wish most distinctly to state that I did not propose it to them. 1772. {Lord LytteltonI) Do I understand that your original intention was to have applied the inhibition gradually to those who had more pupils than 40, as well as to those who had less, and to whom it applied at once ? — I should have been gl.ad to see a gradual reduction. 1773. {Mr. Vaughan.) Is the proportion of 40 boys to one master, which jou have stated here to be the proportion, that the number of masters bears to the whole number of scholars taken on the average of the whole school, both the upper and tha lower ? — The proportion is smaller in the lower school, I think, but I am not quite certain. 1774. I was going to ask whether the proportion of 40 boys, as stated here, was taken on the average of the whole school and all the masters of the whole school, or whether it was taken only in reference to the masters and boys of the upper school ? — I think it is smaller in the lower school. 1775. And is it higher in the upper school i — I should think it is a little more than 40. 1776. Is not the proportion, in fact, more than 40 in the upper school, and less than 40 in the lower school to one master ? — In their divisions in the school do you mean ? PUBLIC SCHOOLS COMMISSION : — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 68 1777. I am speaking of the two divisions in the school ? — Yes. J 778. {Lord Devon.) This limitation applies only to private pupils, as I understand ?— AVe have been talking of private pupils. 1779. (Mr. Vaugkan.) But in reference to the last question, I imi going back to this answer which you gave in writing some time ago, and on which the dis- cussion arose. " The present rule is that the propor- " tioii shall be one classical master to 40 boi/s." Tou are alluding in that answer to the proportion of boys in form to masters in the school ? — In that answer I was alluding to tlie number of pupils. 1780. Do you happen to know what tne proportion of boys in form to masters in form is ; what is the average [uoportion throughout the school ? — I Ihink it is about 40 boys to one master. 1781. It is about the same, then, as it is with re- spect to private pupils and their tutors ? — I believe so ; it may be 44. 1782. Have you any rule upon that subject ? — No, except that we endeavour to divide them off as nearly as possible in equal divisions. 1783. What is the reason for having a much larger proportion of masters to the boys iu the lower school than there is in the upper school ? — ^Because they require much more individual attention, and they are more cut up in small bodies. 1784. Does the same objection, according to your opinion, prevail against a large number of boys in form under one master and against a large number of boys under one tutor ? — An excessive number ? 1785. Does the same objection exist in the same degree to having a large number of boys to one master in form that exists to a great number of pupils under one tutor ? — I do not think the ob- jection is so great with respect to the number of hoys in form under one tutor ; I do nut think three or four additional makes much difference. 1786. Is it the case that it is much more difficult for a man as a tutor properly to instruct and super- intend a great number of bo^s than it is for the same man as master to superintend an equal number of boys in class ? — I should think it was, because the individual labour is greater. 1787. Does it not follow from that, that iu propor- tion as in any school the system of private tuition prevails in the same proportion does the objection prevail against a great number of boys in proportion to the number of masters ? — I do not understand your question. 1788. Is it not the consequence of what you have been stating, that in any school in which the system of private tuition prevails over the system of instruc- tion in class, in the same degree the objection against a great number of boys in proportion to the number of masters becomes stronger and stronger. Do you apprehend me now ? — No, I do not. 1789. Does it not follow, from the distinction which you have admitted between teaching in class and teaching pupils, that in proportion as in any school the system of private tuition as distinct from teaching in class prevails, in the same proportion does the objection against a great number of boys in proportion to the masters also become stronger ? — I really do not understand the question. (Lord Devon.) Does not your question go to this point, whether the existence of the system of private tuition increases or diminishes the objection to having a large number of boys in proportion to the masters ?— 1790. (Mr. Vaughan.) I will adopt that form of the question. After the distinction which j'ou have admitted on this point, does the existence of a system of private tuition in a school increase or diminish the objection to a larger number of boys in proportion to the number of masters? — I do not see how it affects the question at all. 1791. I understood you to allow that it was more difficult for one tutor to teach a great number of pupils than it was for one master to teach a great number of boys in one class ?— Yes. 1792. I understood you distinctly to .admit that? — Yes, because it occupies more time. 1793. I now ask you, is it not a consequence of that, that if the system of teaching pupils prevailed very much in a school, the objection would be also increased in that school to having a great number of boys iu proportion to the number of masters? — I really am not able to answer that question. 1974. Supposing all the teaching of the school to consist of class teaching, would not in that school a great number of boys, in proportion to the masters, be less important than where tliere was also a system of private tuition ? — I do not see why it should be so. 179o. If in the system of private tuition it is more difficult for one master to teach many pupils than it is for one master to hear many boys in class, does it not follow that in a school where the system of teach- ing is mainly by private tuition the same objection must become stronger and stronger ?-— I cannot see it. 1796. It seems to follow necessarily that if it is admitted that it is more detrimental to the interests of many boys to be taught as private pupils by one tutor than it is to be heard bj- one master in class, that in any school where the former system prevails, the having many boys iu proportion to the number of masters, must be most objectionable ? — I do not see how it would. 1797. Perhaps, \i I write the question, .and hand it to you, you will take it home with you, and give me an answer iu the morning ? — Yes. 1798. {Lord Lyttelton.) If we are to understand that all the boys must have private tutors, and that the number of boys to each priv;ite tutor is limited to 40, and that the average projiortion of the boys in the school, as compared with the number of masters, is 40 also, it follows that each tutor has the same num- ber to te.ach in school as he has private pupils ? — Yes, or nearly so. 1799. The Head Master has no pupils? — No. 1800. According to that there would be rather more than 40 boys in each class, supposing that each tutor has more tlaau 40 private pupils ? — Yes. 1801 . Every boy must have a private tutor ? — Y'es, but all the masters have not 40 pupils. •1802. It would be so, supposing the school was full ? — If every master had 40 pupils, that would be the case, but every master has not. ETON, Rev. C. O. Goodford , Rev. G. J. Dupuis. Rev. J. Wilder. T. Batcheldor, £sq. 7 July 1862. Letters sttbsequently addressed by Mr. Batcueluor to the Secretary. T. 5, Upper Cloisters, AVindsor Castle, Dear sir, 28th January, 1863. In compliance with the request made to me by the Public Schools Commissioners that 1 would inform them at what ])eriod the salary of the Provost of Eton was increased from 50/. to li/!*/., and the salaries of the Fellows from lOl. to 521., I beg to say that it ai)pears from the earliest period of the accounts of the College down to the year 16-11, the Dieta and provisions for the maintenance oif' the Provost and College according to the Foundation Charters were de- livered to them in kind. From the year 1641 to the year 1647 there were not any accounts kept at Eton, owing, 1 presume, to the breaking- up of the College during those years ; but in the year 1647 the accounts commence again, and the payments to the Provost and College under the title of " Dieta in Pecuniis Mri. Prapositi et Sociorum," are as follows : £ s. d. Mr. Provost - - - - 396 7 Vice-Provost and six Fellows, each - - - - 3/ 18 4 Stipendia : Mr. Provost - - - - 60 Vice-Provost and six Fellows, each 10 Remuneratioxes Officiariorum : Mr. Provost - - - - 25 Vice-Provoat - - - 10 Prsecentor - - - 3 6 8 Sacrist - - - - 1 7 8 Two Bursars each - - - 3 6 8 Catechist - - - - 6 H 4 ETON. licv. C. O. Good/ord. liev. G. J. Dtijniia. liev. J. Wilder. T. Biitchcldor, Esq. 7 July 186:2. 64 PUBLIC SCHOOLS COMMISSION :— MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. In the following table I give an account of the payments under these heads down to the year 1662. for the purpose of shewing the variations : Dieta in Pecuniis. Stipendia. Eemunerationes Officiariorum. ~l Vice -I'ro- Vice-Pro- Do. by Years. I'rovost. vost and SixFellow.i, Provost. vost and Six Fel- Provost. ■\ ice Provost. Catechist. Pra;centor. Sacrist. Bursar. Vote of College. each. lows, each. £ d £ -1. d Jt s. d. £ s. d. £ s. d. £ s. ,/. £ s. d. £ s. d. £ *. d. £ s. d. £ s. d. 1647 396 7 37 18 4 50 10 25 10 6 3 6 S 6 8 3 6 8 1648 418 18 .1 37 18 4 50 10 25 10 6 3 6 8 6 8 3 6 8 1649 A^\ 1 11 "61 10 50 10 25 10 6 3 6 8 ' 6 8 3 6 8 4.14 ') T- Tu 8 4 50 10 25 10 COO 3 6 8 6 8 3 6 S 30 16ol .37.) !•> 59 18 4 50 10 25 10 6 3 6 8 6 8 3 6 8 30 165-^ 341 11 R 60 50 10 25 10 6 3 6 8 6 8 3 6 8 30 oof; I'l n 60 50 10 25 10 6 3 6 8 6 8 3 6 8 30 16.'j4 206 6 CO 50 10 25 10 6 3 6 8 6 8 3 6 8 30 less 295 r, s 60 50 10 25 10 6 3 6 8 6 8 3 6 8 30 1636 327 in 60 50 10 25 10 6 3 6 8 6 8 3 6 8 30 1657 337 ir. 4 60 50 10 25 10 6 3 6 8 6 8 3 6 8 30 lejs 377 1 <) 72 50 10 25 10 COO 3 6 8 6 8 3 6 8 30 16.59 204 n 92 50 10 25 10 6 3 6 8 6 8 3 6 8 30 16G0 204 n 92 50 10 25 10 6 3 6 8 6 8 3 6 8 30 1661 204 (1 92 50 10 25 10 6 3 6 8 6 8 3 6 8 30 1662 204 6 92 50 10 25 10 6 3 8 6 8 3 6 8 30 * This year three of the Fellows received 50/. 17s. Ad. From the year 1662 down to the year 1674 inclusive the payments do not vary in amount. In the year 1675 "the title of the account of payments to the Provost and Fellows is : " Stipendia cum allocat. pro Dieta et Liberatura, " and the payments are : £ s. d. To the Provost - - - 279 „ Vice-Provost - - - 52 „ Six Fellows, each - - 52 These payments to the Provost, Vice-Provost, and Fel- lows have continued down to the present time. The Remuncrationes Officiariorum continued the same from the year 1662 do\vn to the year 1798, when the Vice- Provost's stipend of 10/. was increased to iJO/., and the allowance to the Bursars from 'S.it. 6s. 8t/. to -16/. 6s. 8(/., the small payments in the " Distributiones" and for Azure are added to this, making their payment 48/. lis. \d. With regard to the leases before the Statute of Elizabeth, they appear to have been granted under the power contained in the 34th Statute of the College, which, in certain cases, enabled the College to grant leases for 50 or 60 years. The sums subscribed towards " The Eton College Im- provement l'"und in 1844,'' by old Etonians, amounted to 9,814/. OS. 0(/. The College, as a body, gave 2,000/., and individually as members, including Dr. Ilawtrey, subscribed 2,100/. The sums paid to the contractors for the new wing, which was begun in 1844, including alterations in the long cham- ber and warming, amounted to 14,600/. "is. 3d., but there were payments for extra work. Suljsequently a sum of 1,557/. was subscribed by old Etonians for apartments for a matron, studies for junior scholars, lavatories, and alterations in a portion of the long chamber and staircase tower. This sum of 1,557/. includes 310/. subscribed by the then Provost, the Rev. J. Wilder, and the Head Master. The improvements were carried out by a committee, who expended not only the money received from old Etonians but also that subscribed by the College. The College accounts do not contain a Dr. and Cr. account of the whole expenditvire, but only show what was raised for and applied to the improvements by the College as a body. The date of the Rev. John Wilder's first Post Obit Gift of ;-),000/., towards the repairs and alterations in the chapel, was 26th July 1847 ; a second sum of 1,000/. was given by him in the year 1851, making 4,000/. bearing interest, and in the same year he gave the sum of 1,000/. as a free gift, the whole being 5,000/. The 28,000/. mentioned in the answers does not include the cost of the ordinary repairs which, from year to year, became necessaiy and were executed, nor was any jiart of that sum paid out of the very liberal Post Obit and other gifts of ^Ir. Wilder, or the subscriptions of old Etonians. The increase in the expenditure for coal and other fuel, consequent u])on the erection of the new wing and alterations, is shown in the following tables : Cost of Coals for 16 Yeaes to 1844. Tears. Hall. Long Chamber. Total. £ s. d. £ s. d. £ s. d. 1829 8 24 3 32 3 1830 8 24 3 32 3 1831 3 13 3 19 13 9 23 7 1832 8 7 s- 19 13 9 28 1 5= 1833 8 19 13 9 27 13 9 1834 7 9 3 17 10 2 24 19 5 1835 7 4 9 24 G 2 31 10 11 1836 7 13 4 35 2 42 15 4 1837 9 38 19 47 19 1833 6 10 38 19 44 19 10 1839 8 3 37 18 G 46 1 6 1840 14 7 50 15 6 65 2 6 1841 6 13 o 34 2 6 40 15 6 1842 11 4 34 2 45 6 6 1843 10 17 31 4 42 1 1844 10 10 10 31 4 42 10 £016 14 2 Cost of Coals for 16 Y'eabs to 1860. Small Chamber, Heatin Y'ears. Hall. Breakfast, New Total. and Supper Buildings. Rooms. £ s. d. £ s. d. £ s. d. £ s. d. 1845 10 12 4 20 16 33 18 4 65 6 8 1846 10 3 3 16 12 9 58 14 8 85 10 8 1847 10 3 3 34 8 60 11 / 105 2 10 1848 10 3 3 36 71 15 2 117 18 5 1849 9 5 2 31 10 53 15 i 94 10 9 1850 9 13 8 26 15 50 18 87 9 8 1851 9 2 24 6 52 4 85 12 1852 8 13 8 26 15 8 40 4 75 13 4 1853 8 7 4 25 1 42 1 6 75 9 10 1854 10 15 4 23 16 6 64 98 11 10 1855 10 1 8 14 5 6 68 15 93 2 2 1850 10 1 4 22 4 55 1 87 6 4 1857 7 7 i 19 5 49 3 75 15 7 1858 5 5 81 18 25 13 112 16 1859 5 5 75 12 20 13 107 10 1860 5 5 91 7 28 14 125 6 £1,492 19 1 PUBLIC SCHOOLS COMMISSION : — MINUTES OF EVIDE.NCE. 65 The College gave their reversionary interest in land which was given in exchange for the site of St. John's Cliurch, and subscribed alKl/. towards its erection. Besides defraying the annual expenses they have, since its comple- tion, "expended nearly 300/. in interior fittings, boundary fences, &c. For the new schools in course of erection the contractors are to receive !',o77/., and for the new house 5,800/. Towards the cost of the new schools, in addition to 100/. given by Her Majesty and 50/. by His Royal Highness the late Prince Consort, 1,000/. has been given by the College as a body, and upwards of -1,000/. by the Head and Lower and Assistant Masters, besides contributions from the members of the College individually, and other old Etonians, amounting to about 2,000/. The College, meanwhile, are responsible for the difference between the total cost and the amount of the subscriptions both for the schools and the house. According to a rough estimate, nearly 500/. will be required for warming, and various other matters not in- cluded in the contract, and there can be no doubt that, when the contractors have finished, a considerable sum will ha\e to be expended before the buildings are con- sidered complete and fit for the use of the masters and scholars. I am, &c., Thomas Batcheldor, M. Bernard, Esq. Registi-ar. Dear Sir, H. (E.\tract.) 11 Februarv 1863. The 2,000/. subscribed by the college as a body forms jiart of the 28,000/., but the amounts subscribed by the Provost and Fellows and Head Master are not a part. The following statement shows the expenditure on im- provements : — Subscription to the Improvement Fund Restoration of College Chapel £ 2.000 3,599 15 s. d. 11 "Weston's "i'ard, new Lodge and Fence Long Chambers, School Rooms, &c. Enlargement of Battery, &c. Xew Buildings au'l Jin])rovements on Property in Eton College, acquired by Exchange with the Crown Formation of new Sewers - - . Cemetery, Chapel and Conduct's House Xew Church Site, &c. . - - - Improvements in Churchyard and at St. John's Church, also in Hall, and erect- ing new rooms for attendants adjoining new buildings ----- £ 5. d. ETON. 1,303 1 4 701 19 9 JRec. 322 18 1 C.O.Goodford Her. • G. J. Dupuis. 1,979 10 o liec. ./. Wdd(r 3,893 5 '> T. Batchcldvr, 2,085 19 v) Esq. 625 11 7 July 1862. 1,639 19 5 Adjourned t A'28,152 1 To meet this outlay the College borrowed 19,400/. stock which producetl the sum of 19,090/. 7*'. 6rf., as appears by the table at the toj) of page 13 of the answers, and the Provost and Fellows paid, during the several years shewn in the same table, the several yearly sums amounting in the whole to the sum of 8,422/. 15s. 6d. which enabled the College to i)urehase, at various times, stock amounting in the whole to 11,351/. 7s. 9 .S. Northcote.) With reference to the advantage which it may lie to a boy in school to have been well prepared by his tutor, does not the desire to get these boys well forward in their school class act as a stimulus to the tutors to do their best for the boys ? — I believe that every tutor does what he really thinks is nest for the boys. 1862. Is he not kept np to it by the communica- tions which he from time to time receives from the different masters as to the way in which his boys are going on in school ? — Yes, they converse with each other upon the matter. 1863. Is there a very free communication between the different masters as to how the respective boys are going on ? — Yes. 1864. {Lord Devon.) Where are the absences called ? — In the school yard. 1865. Do you call over the head scholars more than once a day ? — In the winter, on whole school days, not at all ; but in summer at nine, two, and six, and in the lower part of the forms at eight on holydays, in winter at nine a.m. and two p.m^ 1866. Are not the sixth form included in the call for absence ? — Not the eight o'clock absence. The sixth and upjier part are excused. They have a longer time allowed. 1867. The absence is called with regaid to the other forms by the several masters ? — Yes. 1868. Where does that take place ? — In the school yard. 1869. All at the same time ? — At the same time. 1870. {Mr. Thompson.) In difierent parts of the yard ? — Yes. 1871. {Lord ClartndoH.) The duties of the classi- cal masters are to be present with their division in the school, to hear their lessons, and look over their compositions, to take their turns in chapel and in college over the ioWcr boys at absence, to maintain discipline and order in and out of the school, to take charge, if recpiired, of the dame's house, by calling absence, reading prayers, and so on. About how many hours in the day would that take each assistant master ? — On the whole school day about an hour and a half in the first school ; and, if the exercises were long, he might have to stuy in longer. 1872. It is not a fixed hour and a half ? — Usually from half-past seven to nine in the first school, and if he found the exercises longer, he would stay in longer, or go in earlier. I rather think the masters take that time, but it varies. 1873. Are mauj of the classical masters private tutors to the boys in their own class ? — Yes. 1874. Therefore they hear over again the lessons that the boys have prepared with them out of school ? —Yes. 1875. Do you think that that works well ? — It is a great advantage to a boy of course to get the result of two minds instead of oue, but it must sometimes happen that he only gets one, because occasionally his private tutor is master of the form in the school. 1876. In i)oint of fact, is he not very often the same man ? — Yes ; and therefore in that case it would be a disadvantage. 1877. In that case it would be disadvantageous ? — Yes. 1878. That is very frefiuently the case, is it not? — A man will generally have, I suppose, two or three boys of his own under him. 1879. What is the meaning of the assistant masters taking their turns in chapel ? — They are bound to be in chapel in turns for a week at a time. 1880. More than one assistant master ? — Yes. 1881. How many of them ? — Three. 1882. Three in chapel at the same time ? — Yes. 1883. {Lord Li/ttelton.) Not more than three in the whole chapel ? — Not more than three are bound to be there. 1884. And they every day call over the lower boys ? — One of them. 1885. They take charge, if required, of the dames' houses. Are not the dames' houses under constant charge and superintendence ? — Every dame's house. 1886. Is the assistant master who has to take charge of a particular dame's house appointed by the Head Master to that house ? — So many junior masters are ; that is to say, if there are eight dames' houses, eight junior masters would have charge of them. 1887. And these masters would be appointed to take charge of the houses by the Head Master ? — Yes. 1888. They are also " to give such general assist- " ance to the Head Master as he may from time to " time require." That is in the teaching or the working of the school, I suppose ? — If it had hap- pened that you had required Mr. Balston to be here to day, he would have required somebody else to call absence for him. 1889. That is to say that he must provide for occasional or accidental duties ? — Yes. 1890. Is there now an assistant master in college ? —Yes. 1 891 . Was Mr. Paul the assistant master in college ? — Yes, he was. 1892. Who is now ?^Mr. Shuldham is the present. I 2 ETON. Rev. C.O.Goodford. 8 July 1862. 68 PUBLIC SCHOOLS COMMISSION : — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. ETON. Hcv. C.O.Gool/or,l. 8 .Tuly 1802. 1893. Wliat are the omoliiments that he receives from the cnllc-;e ?— 230/. a year. 1894. Is Mr. ShuKlham a conduct ?— No,he is not. 189.5. INIr. Paul rocoived 230/. a year as assistant master in coUese, rooms, coals, aud light, and 120/. as conduct or' chaplain ?— Yes, and Mr. Shuldham receives 230/. a year, and has rooms, coals, and 1896. That is the -whole of his emoluments? — Yes. 1897. Has he any other emolument from any other source than the school ?— No. He is allowed to take private pupils. 1898. Does he take them ?— He has none of them at present. Mr. Paul had two when he was a bachelor. 1899. Will you have the goodness to tell me whether the duties that Mr. Paul performed apjia- reutlv in a satisfactory manner, are performed by Mr. Shuldhnm in an equally satisfactory way. Look at the bottom of page oO, if you please. You will find that " the duties of the assistant master in college are, " as such, the entire charge of the scholars on the " foundation. His rooms are connected with them, " he spends much of his time with them, and is in a " large measure responsible for their moral training. " The whole domestic arrangements fall under him ; " the oare of the scholars in sickness, their expenses, " the bills sent to parents, and in fact all such matters " for the scholars as are the duties of a master or a " dame for the boys, in his or her house. The " scholars are more than double the number of the " boys in an ordinary house, and the assistant in " college receives no emolument from the boys or " parents of the boys under his charge." He does everything that an assistant master can do except the tuition for the boys ? — Yes. 1900. In all other respects ? — Yes. 1901. And for that he merely gets 230/. a year ? — Yes. 1902. That i.s a very important difference between what the tutors and what the dames get for the boys. The duty you say is performed satisfactorily ? — It was performed satisfactorily by Mr. Paul, and, so far as I know, it has been performed satisfactorily by Mr. Shuldham. But the tutors and dames have all the risk and anxieties of the home and establishment. 1903. There is no reason why the same duties should not be performed at the same cost for the oppidans ? — No, if any master or dame chose to pay a deputy that sum. 1904. (Mr. Thompson.^ He is unmarried ? — Yes ; Mr. Paul Avas a bachelor at first. 1905. Is there any aceoramodatiou for a married man ? — Not good accommodation. 1906. {Lord Devon.) Mr. Paul's living room, which you have spoken of, was close to the college, was it not ? — Yes. 1907. The master who takes charge, if required, of a dame's house, is not uecessarilj' the private tutor of the boys in that house ? — No. 1908. Is he obliged to go to that house at certain times, or does he use his own discretion ? — I do not say he never omits visiting the house. 1909. Does he read prayers there? — Only on Sundays. 1910. Not on week days, either morning or even- ing ? — No. 1911. That is left to the dame ?— It is not done in all the houses. 1912. [Lorrl Li/tfcl/on.) When you say th.at Mr. Paul had private pupils, do yon mean that they had no other tutor ?— The}' had another tutor, but he was their private tutor. 1913. Have these masters in the chapel to see that the boys behave properly ? — Yes. 1914. You say that three of the assistant masters are bound to be there. Are the Head and lower masters always there ?— The Head Master ; not the lower master. 1915. And if the whole of the 700 or more are there, are they under the supervision of four masters only ? — Yes. 1916. Is that enough, considering the construction of the chapel ? — I think so. 1917. Enough to see that their behaviour is good ? — I think so. 1918. {A Commissioner.) The mathematical mas- ters do not take their turns in chapel with the others, I suppose ? — None but the senior master. 1919. With regard to every dame's house being superintended, does that apply to those which are kept by masters as well as by dames ? — Yes ; the master calls absence. 1920. And conducts the prayers ? — No, he does not conduct the prayers. 1921. In Mr. Elvans's house, who conducts the prayers ? — I really do not know. 1922. There are no classical masters appointed to superintend in the houses that are kept by mathema- tical tutors ? — No. 1923. That was formerly the case ? — Yes. 1924. The matheniatical masters were formerly not allowed to read praters in their own houses, were they ? — Yes. 1925. But they are allowed to do so now ? — Yes. 1926. {Mr. T/ionipson.) When you say that they take turns in chapel, you only mean in chapel at such times as the boys are there ? — Yes. 1927. Do not the masters always attend the chapel ? —No. 1928. (Mr. Vaiiffhan.) Do I understand you rightlv, that in every dame's house a master is not required to attend in this way ? — No ; they do attend to call absence. 1929. In all the dames' houses ? — Yes. 1930. Are they responsible to the Head Master for the maintenance of order in all the dames' houses ? — Yes. 1931. In these cases what is the length of time in the course of the day that the master, who has partial charge of the dame's house, actually attends to that house at present ? — He never goes there except at the times mentioned, to call absence, read jH'ayers, and so on. 1932. That will not amount to half an hour a day? — He goes only on whole school days at two o'clock and the lock-up, and when the absence is called by the Head Master, he only goes at look-up time. 1933. Can you say how long he would be there in the course of the week-day ? — Not more than five or ten minutes. 1934. Being there five or ten minutes a day, is he responsible for the maintenance of order in that house ? — What is meant by that is, that if anything disorderly takes place, the case is brought before him first, and, if necessary, he reports it to the Head Master. 1935. Supposing that any disorderly conduct has taken place in any of the houses, or that any of the houses were generally in such a state of discipline that the Head Master would not approve of, would the Head Master look to him to suppress it ? — He would go to the master whose duty it would be to call there, and take steps to repress the disorder. 1936. And has that master who visits the house any power over the arrangements of the house at all, which would enable him to carry out with effect that responsibility which is imposed upon him? — I do not know that I understand the question. 1937. I understand that there is a certain respon- sibility attaching to the master who only visits tlie house five or ten minutes in the course of the day? — Yes. 1938. I want to know whether he is invested with any authority over the management of that house which will enable him to produce a state of order in case disorder generally exists ? — He would enforce the observance of the school rules in the house. 1939. But if there were anything in the house with regard to the arrangement of the rooms, or the mode PUBLIC SCHOOLS COMMLSSION : — MIiNUTES OF EVIDENCE. 69 of distribution of the boys, or anytliiiig else which he tlioiight was the cause of the tlisordcr which existed, could he alter that himself ? — No. 1940. Nor force the dame to alter it ? — No. 1941. Is he not, therefore, iu a certain sense in- vested with a responsibility a little out of jiroportion to his opportunities and power ? — I do not think he ever feels it. I do not think that any practical diffi- culty arises from that. 1942. {Lord Clarendon.) There is only one more question tliat it is necessary to put witli respect to the masters. They have to maintain discipline out of school ; what discipline do they really maintain out of school ? — In case of their seeing any misconduct of any kind they correct it. 1943. But they do not go for the purpose of keeping order ? — No. 1944. {Lord Clarendon.) "The duties of the " mathematical master are to be present with their " divisions iu school at the same time with tlie clas- " sical master." How do you mean at the same time ? — The mathematical and the classical masters' work goes on at the same time, either in the same or in ditferent rooms. 1945. All the masters are appointed by the Head Master, are they not ? — Yes. 1946. Do you find any ditticully in obtaining good men ? — I have. 1947. You have found a dilHculty in obtaining good men ? — I have. 1948. {Lord Clarendon.) Have you not also found a difficulty in retaining them ? — I do not recollect at this moment having ever lost any good men. 1949. I will call to your recollection, in Mr. John- son's evidence, the following passage : " As mathe- " matical instruction lias been brought into the system " bit by bit, so the position of the nnithematieal " teachers has been little by little improved, and con- " cessions have been made to those who have been " appointed lately which were refused a few years " ago to others. Effiirts have been made to procure " the services of mathematicians of high standing ; " and in order to attract such men, their rank lias " been slowly elevated, but meanwhile man after " man has gone away after a short period of service, " generally because there was no solid footing to be " gained. If the Commissioners wish to know what " the position of a mathematical teacher is or has " lately been at Eton, they would perhaps do well " to apply for evidence to those wljo have recently " held and given up the appointment." What should you say with respect to tliat ? — I really do not know to whom that applies. 1950. That is strange, because it says, '-man after " man has gone away after a short period of service ?" — I do not know to whom he alludes. 1951. Have the present mathematical masters been there some tunc. I know the Head Mathematical Master has ? — Not a very long time. 1952. None of them ? — -Not very. 1953. (.S'(> S. Northcote.) Have not Sir. Hale and Mr. Ottley ? — Yes ; and Mr. Frewer. 1954. Do they all of them take private pupils ? — Yes. 1955. That 10/. 10s. each is an extra ?— Yes. 1956. And that is all that is paid to them ? — No ; there is an annual payment. 1957. Do you know about what is the number of private pupils which they have ? — I do not. 1958. Are any of the collegers private pupils of the mathematical masters ? — Yes. 1939. A large proportion of them ? — I do not know, and therefore I cannot say exactly. 1960. What is the status of a mathematical master at Eton. Has he the same social and academical rank as the assistant classical masters ? — He has a different class of duties to perform. 1961. That is another question entirely ? — That makes his status different. 1962. First, what is his status ? — I hardly know what answer to give to that question. ETON. 8 July 1862. 1963. {Mr. Thompson.) Is an assistant mathematical master an M.A. ? — They are all graduates of the university. Rev. 1964. '{L.ord Lyttelton.) Are they required to l)e ? CO.Good/ord. — I never should ajipoint a man who was not. 1965. {Lord Clarendon.) Are they generally men who have taken a high degree ? — Yes. 1966. Generally masters of arts ? — Not when they first come. 1967. But they are generally bachelors who have taken high degrees ? — Yes. 1968. Their position, teaching mathematics, is ditferent from the jiosition of the classical assistant masters who teach classics ? — Yes. 1969. Is their social position in the school the same ; that is to say, do they rank the same as clas- sical assistant masters? — On the broad principle, perhaps, I should say they do not. 1970. What is the broad principle?— I hardly know how to describe it. We do not meet together before school, their school is in another part of the building altogether. 1971. Do you always meet with the classical mas- ters before school ? — Alost of us meet before school. 1972. For instance, are the boys required to treat them with the same respect as the classical masters ? — I required them to do so. 1973. {Sir S. yorthcote.) The assistant classical masters are capped by the boys, are they not ? — Yes ; and the boys were directed, as I have stated, to treat the mathematical masters in the same way. 1974. That capping does not seem to introduce any great formality into their relations with them, does it ?— No. 1975. Have you ever received any complaints, or heard any dissatisfaction expressed by the assistant mathematical masters in reference to their status ? — I think not. 1976. You have never received any complaints of that ? — I do not think any one ever complained to me. 1977. Do you believe that some of them are not dissatisfied ? — I believe, on the contrary, that some of them are dissatisfied. 1978. With the social position they hold in the school ? — With their position. 1979. And though none of those complaints ever reached j'ou as Head JIaster, are you aware that any were ever made to the late Provost ? — One, I think, with reference to their not being permitted to wear their gowns in chapel. 1980. You recollect one of the assistant mathe- matical masters complaining to the Provost with reference to wearing their gowns in chapel ? — I re- collect one of them complaining to him that they were not allowed to wear their gowns in chapel. 1981. AVould that be a mark of inferiority, their not being permitted to wear their gowns in chapel ? — It would be, certainly. 1982. That is the ca<^e with all of them ?- With all but the senior it was. It is not so now. 1983. How long has it ceased to be the ease ? — About a year and a half ago. 1984. {Lord Li/ttelton.) Do they all wear their gowns iu chapel now ? — Yes. 1985. And elsewhere, walking about ? — Yes, 1986. On all occasions, just as much as the other masters ? — Yes. 1987. {L^ord Clarendon.) It has reached me thi'ough more than one channel that the mathematical masters are by no means satisfied with their position in the school, and they think that the little respect that is shown them, and the inferiority of the position which they are compelled to occupy, detracts very much from the weight, not only of their authority, but of their instruction, and that the boys are thereby taught to think lightly of the subjects taught by the mathe- matical masters, to whom they are not allowed to show much respect. Allow me to draw your atten- tion to this answer of Mr. Ilale's, in page 143 of the written answers : " A mathematical assistant may be 13 70 PUBLIC SCHOOLS COMMISSION: — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. vrnti " in Holy Or.lers aud liave a boarding liouso, and yet " no part of tlic religious teaching of the boys in his Rev. " house falls to his duty. In many cases the boys C.O.Good/ord. u classical tutor is a young man, much junior to the " mathematical assistant, and not in orders, and the 8 July 1862. ^, ^^^^, |j_^;,^,|(^ j,t the same time look to the mathe- " niatical assistant, with whom he boards, as respon- " sible for his moral training." Can such a state of things exist. Is that the case ?— I should have said that^the boys' parents look to his tutor for his moral training. ^ i i 1988. (Lord Li/ttelfon.) That is, tjie parents look to the classical tutor of the hoy ? — Yes. 1989. {Lord Clarendon.) Should you not feel, as a mathematical master in orders, much the senior of a classical master also in orders, aggrieved that your junior should undertake the moral training of your own pupils merely because you are a mathematical master, you being also in your own house ?— Yes, but boys are not the mathematical masters' pupils, merely boarders in his house. 1990. ( Sir S. Northcote.) And if the classical mas- ter were not in orders ? Let me ask you whether you should not think yourself greatly degraded by that ? I am not able to say. The gentlemen who are ap- pointed to the position are perfectly aware of the cir- cumstances to which yon allude before they accept it. 1991. I do not think that is an answer. How would you like to be in that position. Should you not consider yourself degraded. I do not think it is the question why a man occupies the position. Ought he to be put in such a position? — I cannot answer that question. I have put no one into it.* 1992. I think you said that some time ago it was the practice not to allow a mathematical master, although he may keep a house, to read prayers in his own house, but that that practice is now abandoned ? —Yes. 1993. The mathematical masters who keep houses are now responsible for the discipline of those houses ? —Yes. 1994. So that when a boy is sent to board in a mathematical house, would not the parent naturally look to the mathematical assistant as the person from whom he should expect the moral care and super- intendence of his boy ?— I always presumed that he would look to the tutor. 1995. The tutor would have no authority whatever over the arrangements of the house in which the boy is sent to board ? — No. 1996. He would not be often able, indeed he would be hardly ever able, to go and visit his pupil there ? — He would not usually do so. 1997. Would not the moral superintendence of the boy really fall into the hands of the master in whose house he lives, who sees him constantly, and makes reports to his parents ? — He would know most of him, certainly. 1998. {Lord Clarendon.) There can be no doubt that the mathematical master is in an inferior position at Eton, as compared with that of the assistant clas- sical master. Can you give any reason why that in- feriority of position should exist ? — None, except that mathematics having been introduced in that way (bit by bit), they did not form part of the original con- stitution of the school. That is the only way in which I can account for it. 1999. You do not think that there is any advantage in continuing it now ? — Certainly not. 2000. Now that mathematics is part of the regular curriculum, you do not see any advantage in continuing that inferiority of position on the part of the mathe- matical master ? — Certainly not. 2001. {Lord Devon.) I was going to ask Dr. Good- ford how far he would go in endeavouring to raise the position of the mathematical master at this moment. * The Provost subsequently wrote to request that his answer to the above question might be in this form : " I cannot answer that question " except by saying, that in taking some trouble to procure for them, at " tlieir request, the houses which they occupy, I intended to do them " a kindness, not to degrade them ; and I never heard till now that they " felt aggrieved by this." Would you raise it to the level of the assistant clas- sical master ? — I do not believe that the mathematical masters will ever have their proper weight until they are on a precisely similar footing, but then j-ou must give the Head Master the power of appointing these whom he knows to be fit to have that status con- ferred upon them. 2002. Whom he knows to possess qualities which will enable them to maintain that status ? — The pre- sent stafTof mathematical assistants has been appointed without a view to their being precisely on a par with the classical assistant.s, and if they are to be placed on a par with them, the Head Master must have the power of appointing men whom he knows, and who possess his coufldenee. 2003. Do you consider that the fact that a certain portion of the mathematical masters are not Etonians would interpose a difficulty in the way of putting them on a same level with the classical assistants? — I think it would to a certain extent. 2004. In what other point of view would there be found to be any difficulty in placing the mathematical masters on the same footing as the classical assistants. They are all university men, are they not ? — Yes. 2005. And several of them are clergymen ? — Yes. The difficulty is simply that they have not been selected witli a view to their being placed on a par with the classical masters. 2006. Would you think it desirable that they should have out of school, as in school, the same power of enforcing order and discipline which the classical m.asters have ? — If the)' were all Etonians. 2007. You would give an answer in the affirmative, subject to that qualification ? — Yes. 2008. Do you think that the interest of the school would suffer if a man, otherwise well qualified, intellectually and morally, were entrusted with the same power ? — I do not say one man, but if you had seven or eight men all at once. 2009. You would think the general interests of the school would suffer ? — I should not like to do it if I were Head Master. Perhaps I may be allowed to state that I tried the experiment when I became Head Master. I asked Mr. Hawtrey, the .senior mathe- matical master, to take a house, he being at liberty to take pupils precisely on the same terms as every one of the classical masters. 2010. What was the result ? — He came to me subsequently and said, " I can get no pupils ; I must " give it up ; people will not send their sons to me." 2011. {^[r. Thompson.) He was obliged to give it up, because he could get no boys ? — Yes. 2012. {Lord Devon.) Would not that be owing to the status occupied by him at that time ? — He held the same position exactly as the other masters did. 2013. It was recently altered ; the status had been recently raised ? — It had been raised tbree years. 2014. The traditions of the school are all against putting the mathematical masters on the same footing as the classical masters ? — Yes. 2015. With regard to the boarding houses, there are, 1 think, several boarding houses, five or six at least, which are kept by persons who take no part in the tuition of the school whatever ? — Yes. 2016. While there are certain mathematical masters who have no boarding houses ? — Yes. 2017. Have boarding houses been offered to any of those mathematical masters ? — No opportunity has as yet occurred of offering them to them. 2018. No opportunity has as yet occurred ? — No. 2019. Suppose a vacancy to have occurred in your time, what would have been your course. Supposing that there were upon the one hand a mathematical master willing to take a house, and that upon the other hand, side by side with him, a person not en- gaged in tuition also applied for the house, which would it be best for the interests of the school that it should be given to ? — I should prefer giving it to the mathematical master, if I had the power ; but the fact is that I have not the power to interfere with the PUBLIC SCHOOLS COMMISSION: — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. "J lessee of the house, except in so tin- as preveutiug improper persons fiom eoniing tliere. 2020. You njipointed nil tiie nintlicniiUiciil masters? I (lid ; all that oiime during my mastership — the last five. 2021. Do you know how many of tiiem were Eton men when 3'ou were there as Head Master ? — 1 think only two. 2022. Tlie others were non-Etonians ? — Yes. 2023. {Mr. ThompsoT).) Two out of how many ? — Out of eight. 2024. {Lord LytteUon.) Do you conceive, iu the present state of King's College, Cambridge, that there would be much difficulty in obtaiuing from thence well-qualitied Etonians as mathematical masters ? — I think we might. 2025. You said that if the mathematical masters were to be placed on a i)ar with the classical masters the Head Master must have the power of appointing those in whom he bad confidence, and whom he could trust ? — Yes. 2026. He has that power now, has he not ? — The present stalfof mathematical assistants has not been appointed with a view to holding that higher position. 2027. You mean that the position and status which they are to hold should be borne in mind iu appoint- ing them ? — Exactly so. 2028. Some of tliem do keep boarding houses ? — Y'es. 2029. With regard to the moral charge of the pupils, Mr. Stephen Hawtrey, when he first came, was jjut on exactly the same footing as the classical as- sistant masters ? — Not when he first came. When he became Master of the mathematical department of the school, and mathematics were part of the school work. 2030. Was that an exception then with respect to him as regarded the other mathematical masters ? — Yes. 2031. He was given the general status of a clas- sical assistant master, as far as it was practicable to do so ? — Y'es. 2032. Therefore, he thought he might probably obtain boarders ; but when he tried it, he found it impracticable to do so ? — Y'es. 2033. Has he any boarders now ? — He gave up his house long ago. 2034. But since that lailuru of his, some of the mathematical masters have had boarders ? — Y'es, but they take them on lower terms tliau the classical assistant masters do. 2035. In what respect ? — Their terms are lower than the others. 2036. In regard to payment ? — Y''es. 2037. Have they many boys in their houses ? — Y'es, 1 believe their houses are full. 2038. With regard to the general charge of the boys, is it not desirable that whoever has charge of them should have them in his own house ? — Yes. 2039. And whenever a tutor is living in another house than that in which the boys are, he has not the same power of inquiring into their habits and character ? — No. 2040. The payment of the mathematical masters is barely sufficient to enable you to get well-qualified men ? — I think it is not. It is barely sufficient with pupils. Of itself it would not be sufficient. 2041. Is that so iu regard to the other masters ? — Exactly the same. 2042. Do you not think that the present position and feeling of the school in regard to classical at- tainments would be quite enough to maintain the classics in their accustomed eminence at Eton, even although the mathematical masters were put in every respect as regards status on a level with the classical masters ? — Perhaps so. 2043. You do not think it would endanger the position of the classics and the classical masters in the school ? — No. 2044. {Sir S. Korthcote.) Supposing n boy has a mathematical tutor, he may have his ])rivate tutor also, if he likes, may he not ? — Y'es. 2045. Sui)posing that a boy has a mathematical private tutor, he must have a classical tutor ? — Y'es. 2046. And if the classical tutor sends for him at any time, he must go to him, must he not, without reference to what his engagements may be with the mathematical tutor ? — They would be always able to make arrangements together. 2047. But supposing that there is a collision ; a boy must at any time go to his classical tutor rather than to his mathematical tutor ? — I think that to say he was attending to the mathematical master would be uo excuse for his not going to the classical master. I think the Head Master would hold it to be no excuse. 2048. {Mr. Thompson.) Y'ou said just now that one of the principal mathematical masters could not get boarders when he had llie opportunity afforded to him of taking them ; was that because he was not an Etonian ? — No. What he said to me was that the Eton world would not understand raathematicul masters taking pupils on the same conditions as clas- sical masters. 2049. The Eton world of how long ago ; was it before the Woolwich examinations, for iustance ? — Nine years ago. 2050. I think j'ou have now among the mathemati- cal masters some members of other colleges besides that of King's College, Cambridge ? — Y''es, two Fel- lows of Trinit}-. 2051. Those men, I presume, ajiart from their position in the school, are in every other respect the equals of the classical masters ? — Yes, with the ex- ce])tiou that in the one case he is an Eton man and in the other he is not. 2052. In attainments and rank iu society they are equal, I presume ? — Yes. 2053. So that in their case there could be no pos- sible objection to the status of the mathematical masters being assimilated to that of the classical masters ? — No. 2054. {Mr. Vaughan.) The boys in the college have private tutors, have they not ? — Every one of them has a tutor. 2055. And some of them have private tutors ? — Each boy has a tutor, and pays 10 guineas a year, 2056. In the case of the collegers, who superintends the boys morally? — His tutor. 2057. And in the case of the dames, is it the tutor then ? — Y'es. 2058. Is it considered an essential part of the tutorial system at Eton that the classical tutor should have the moral superintendence of the boy ? — He is committed to him by the pai'ent. 2059. Generally speaking, do the higher profits of the classical master enable you to command men in whom more confidence in regard to that duty is to be placed than do the profits of the mathematical masters ? — I never appointed a siugle classical man whom I had not known personally before, and whose career I had not been able to trace from the time he left the school. 2060. Speaking generally, do you think that the relative payments of the classical and mathematical masters are such that you on the whole are able to obtain men of superior character to those which you could generally reckon on obtaining as mathematical masters? — I should be sorry to say I thought the character of the mathematical men was morally in- ferior to that of the classical masters. 2061. I do not mean in the common sense of mo- rally inferior ; but comparing one class generally with the other, do you not command greater powers of mind, and more general cultivation, maturity, and power to influence, by the emoluments which you are" able to offer to the classical masters, than by the emoluments which you are able to give to the mathematical masters ? — I have a larger field to pick from. I 4 ETON. Rev. C.O.Goodjhrd. 8 July 1862. 72 PUBLIC SCHOOLS COMMISSION : — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. ETON. Eei'. CO. Gvuilford. 8 July 18G2. 2062. (Mr. Thompson.) What field do you con- sider open to you in clioosing matheniatical masters ? — It is difficult to say. 2063. The university of Camljridge ? — Yes. 2064. You have a Avider field in choosing matlie- matical masters than in choosing chissical masters. Do you not rather confine yourself to one college in your selection of classical masters ? — Mainly. 2065. Is there not a greater number of men in Cambridge annually who distinguish themselves more in mathematics than in classics ? — Yes. 2066. Do you think there is any difference socially in the condition of the candidates at the university of Cambridge between those who take classical and those who take mathematical degrees. Is there any sen- sible diflerence between the iwo ? — No, I do not think there is. 2067. (Mr. J'aug/iaii.) I spoke of the inducement to come to Eton. Putting the same question with respect to another point ; do you think it would be necessary at the same time that you imposed the mor.al superintendence over the pupils 0!i the mathematical masters, in order to ensure qualities and exertions adequate to such new responsibility, to provide greater remuneration for the staff and the mathe- matical masters than you have hitherto done ? — You must make some arrangement by which you must improve their position. 2068. In the way of payment ? — Yes. 2069. Could you, in order to avoid increased ex- pense to the pupil, diminish concurrently, do you think, the payment of the tutor who gives classical instruction, inasmuch as his moral responsibility over the pupils would be withdrawn. Would you make any difference in the present position of the classical master in consequence of that change ? — I do not consider that the tutor who receives 10 guineas a year receives a farthing too much now. 2070. But he has at the same time the moral supei'- intendeuce of the boy cast upon him ? — Yes. 2071. But with respect to the private pupils out of the house of the tutor, does he not receive a larger sum for them than 10 guineas ? — For every private pupil he has 20 guineas. 2072. Does the fact of their being in the house or out of the house of the tutor affect the payment which the boy makes to the tutor as tutor ? — It is difficult to say. 2073. (Lord Lyttdton.) What Mr. Vaughau asks is, whether a private pupil in a dame's house pays the same to the tutor, whether he is brought into the tutor's house or remains in the dame's ? — Yes. 2074. The boy in the dame's house pays the same as the boy in the tutor's house ? — Not always. 2075. For tuition, I mean ? — Not always. He is necessarily a private pupil if he is in his tutor's house, but he is not necessarily a private pupil if he is in the dame's house. 2076. But it is almost invariably the case that he is ? — Not always. 2077. (Mr. Vaughcui.) I want to know, then, whether in such numerous instances it would be pos- sible, in case of transferring the moral superintendence of the boy to the mathematical master in the boarding house, to make any proportionate diminution in the payment of the private classical tutor who has now the moral superintendence over him ? — It would be possible, of course, but whether it would be advisable is another question. 2078. (Lord Clarendon.) Dr. Goodford, the clas- sical masters are all Eton men, and have been cus- tomarily taken from those who have been on the foundation there ; that is to say, I suppose they have all been taken from King's College?— No, from those who have been on the foundation. 2079. The statutes do not contemplate that, do •they .''—The statutes do not contemplate assistant masters at all. 2080. There have of late been exceptions to takin"- them from the foundation. Have these exception^ been numerous ?— I forget. Out of seven whom I have appointed, three of them, I believe, were not King's College men. 2081. (Sir S. Norfhcotc.) Have all those who have been appointed been collegers ? — Of those three one was a colleger, the other two were oppidans, and the appointment was offered to another oppidan besides. 2082. (Lord Clarendon.) Fitness for the office in the judgment of the Head Master is the only condi- tion of eligibility Avith which you are acquainted. In what manner does the Head Master decide upon the fitness for office of the assistant classical master ? — By what he may have known of the boy when he was at school, and from inquiry of those with whom he has been brought into contact since. 2083. As to any experience in the art of teaching ? — No, not experience in the art of teaching, but as to his attainments, his temper, and his habits. 2084. There has never been any assistant master removed on account of his want of experience, or of his deficiency in teaching, or anything else ? — I never recollect such a case. 2085. I cannot help reading what Sir John Cole- ridge says on the question of the assistant classical master. He says, " What is their previous prepara- " tion for these very important duties ? Until within " a comparatively recent period one could not give " a satisfactory answer to some of these questions ; " even now there are particulars in which change " seems very desirable. It is no answer to this to " point to individuals among them excellent in all " respects ; such there have always been, and pro- " bably always will be ; but the system did not, " and even now hardly does, secure general excel- " lence. The course was this, — hoys were nominated " to college in the first instance by the electors, in " the exercise of simple patronage, and when elected " they maintained their places and order of succes- " sion through the school without any consideration " of relative, even of absolute merit, ability, or ap- " plication. They succeeded to King's College in " the same way, the electoi-s on both occasions going " through the solemn farce of a free election, and " having been sworn to an honest, impartial, and " strict performance of their duty as electors. When " the lads were thus floated to King's, they came to a " college locally in the university, but scarcely of it " in any true sense. It had no independent members; " its undergraduates took no part in the exercises or " examinations of the university ; very few of its " honours were open to them ; they mixed very little " with the members of other colleges ; and in their " own they only found their old, and, generally speak- " ing, unimproved schoolfellows, living under the " laxest discipline. From young men, sometimes only " in their third year, and thus unpromisingly trained, " the Head and lower master of Eton, with whom the " selection practically rests, each for his own school, " exclusively a])pointed their assistants." I suppose the majority of the assistant masters at Eton at this moment are men chosen under these circumstances, are they not ; and I would ask you is that a correct picture, seeing that the majority of the assistant masters at Eton have been there more than six years? — It is more than 18 years ago since things were al- tered at Eton ; more than six years since the altera- tion took place at King's. 2086. It was in the year 1857, was it not ? — No. 2087. The Oxford Commission did not report till the year 1 856 ? — It was very shortly after that. 2088. (Mr. Thompson.) Was it not the fact that King's College gave up its privileges in the univer- sity volinitarily ? — Yes. 2089. It would be very easy, I suppose, to see from the Cambridge Calendar when that happened ? — I think it is longer ago than the period that has been mentioned ; in 1853. 2090. (Lord Clarendon.) Sir John Coleridge says, " There was no previous training in the difficult art " of teaching or dealing with boys ; very soon the " duties of the pupil room and the cares of a largo PUBLIC SCHOOLS COMMISSION : — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 73 '' household maJc auy self-education in this respect " impossible." And (heu lie says, " In many parti- " culars wholesome changes have been made ; the " monopoly of King's men is broken down to some " extent, and King's men themselves are very much " improved ; boys are admitted into college only " after a strict and impartial competitive exiimina- " tion ; and the number of candidates is so large " made so in part by this very circumstance, tliat " none but boys of considerable abilirj' and aciiuire- " ments can hope to succeed in it." And then he goes on a little below, '' Still it is not enough that a " few Oxford or Cambridge Etonians break in on " the old monopolj' of King's. I am clearly of " opinion that the Head and lower masters should " really and practically feel themselves at full liberty " to select from every source, without distinction, the " best men whom they can ol)tain for their assistants, " and that they are morally bound to act on that " principle." Would that be your opinion also, Dr. Goodford ? — I would rather appoint an Eton man if I could find him. 2091. You would not think it necessary to take him from the foundation ? — No ; I have not done so. 2092. Sir Jolm Coleridge alludes to a late Provost, who, " it is said used to maintain that the assistant " masterships were the peculium, as he called it, of " the Fellows of King's ;" did he consider for whose benefit the offices existed, and whose money made them profitable ? — I do not know to whom he alludes, nor can I be responsible for him. I do not know who he was. 2093. Sir John Coleridge also thinks it "obviously " unwise, while Rugby and Harrow, and other great " schools select from the whole range of both univer- " sities, that Eton should be confined to the very " small number who can be drafted from King's, or " even to Etonians in general." He says also, " I " would have Eton as open to them as it is now, but " I would open Eton as freely to the good men of all " other colleges and universities ; and I would en- " tirely eradicate the notion, injurious to the school '•' and not honourable to them, that they have any- " thing like a property, directly or indirectly, in it." Would you say, in answer to that, that you would also wish to prefer an Eton man ? — Yes. 2094. Ceteris paribus, I think you are perfectly right. But if you got a man who was educated at Win- chester or Harrow, and who took a very higli degree at Cambridge, where would be the disadvantage of appointing him ? — There would be no disadvantage, and I would appoint him if I could not find an Eton man of equal calibre. I have said so in public before now. But I should first of all endeavour to find an Eton man to fill the vacancy, and if I could not find an Eton man whom in my conscience I thought fit ibr the appointment, I would seek elsewhere, and would fearlessly appoint an individual to the exclusion of those, whether they were Etonians or not, who were inferior to him. 2095. You would not, in fact, desire to see an Eton man preferred, if a better could be obtained ? — No ; I used to get the best men I could, but still I say I ehould like first of all a good Eton man. 2096. {Lord Lyffclton.) In fact the practice has been for a long time past to appoint men so young, that they can have hardly had any experience in teaching ? — No. 2097. They may occasionally have had private pupils ? — Yes. 2098. Do you think it a point of importance in a large school like Eton to have for junior assistant classical masters men who have had experience in school teaching ? — No. 2099. With regard to getting the best men, so far as Cambridge is concerned, is it not the case that without exception the recent appointments have con- pisted of men who have attained the highest classical distinctions in the University ? — Yes. 2100. All that you can look to and do look to is classical distinction and general good character ? — Not 1. that onlj', and men of high degrees have not been chosen if they were not thought otherwise fit. 2101. Were you in the habit of considering whether in other respects, in addition to these two requisites, the candidate for the appointment was such a man as wo\dd be likely to inHuence the boys with respect to discipline and general training ?-^ Yes ; that is to say, I generally form an estimate as to whether he would be likely to do well. 2102. {Sir S. Xorthcote.) With regard to the per- sonal knowledge that you acquire of these young men, supposing a boy to have been educated at Eton, and to have passed four or five years there as pupil, probaldy not only you, but several other masters, will have had an opportunity of knowing a good deal of the boy's character. Is not that the case? — Yes. 2103. They will have seen how he conducts him- self with respect to other boys, and how far he has been able, as a sixth form boy, or in any other posi- tion, to gain an influence over the other boys ? — Yes. 2104. And the}' would know more of him thau they can probablj' know of a man simply by taking down the Cambridge or Oxford calendar, and looking to the honours which young men from other schools have gained at the university ? — Yes. 210.5. Therefore when you are appointing an Etonian, }'ou have better means of knowing whether he is likely to be fit for the position of assistant, master than you could possibly have, or at all events tlian you could easily have, if 3'ou were appointing a non-Etonian ? — Yes. 2106. When you say you prefer Eton men, on what; principle do you prefer them. Is it because you think they have any kind of claim to the assistant master- ship, or that they would be more likely, cateris paribus, to do well in the position of assistant master, simply from their being Eton bo}'s ? — I think they would be more likely to do well, with Eton bo3's, from the knowledge they would possess of the habits of the boys, and the traditions of the school. 2107. Because they are thoroughly acquainted with the system, and know the ins and outs of it, so to speak ? — Yes. 2108. But supposing you could not get an Etonian who was fit for the work of the school, you say you would have no hesitation in appointing a non-Etonian ? —Yes. 2109. Is not that what j'ou have practically done in the case of the mathematical assistants. Finding it was difficult to get Etonians well qualified as mathe- matical assistants, you have obtained non-Etonians ? —Yes. 2110. Although the principle you have adopted has been first of all to get the most efficient men, without reference to the question of where they were educated, still the consideration of where they were educated, and whether they were Eton men is very important, as a means of enabling you to judge of their fitness for the appointment at the time you ajjpoint them ? — I think it very important. 2111. With regard to the expression of Sir J. Coleridge, that the young man who comes to Eton finds himself over burdened with the cares of a house, is it the case that an assistant classical master when he first comes to Eton usually has a house ? — Cer- tainly not. 2112. Does it not almost invariably happen that it is a year or two (during which a stranger to the working of the school has time to make himself acquainted with it) before he is charged with the duties of a house ? — Yes. 2113. In the days of which Sir J. Coleridge was speaking, that was not so ?— No. 2114. {Mr. Thompson.) Would not the mathe- matical master obtain the same power of managing a house by residing as mere instructor in the college for two or three years. Would he not learn much of it, if not everything ? — It is hard to say. 2115. Do they not identify themselves veiy much with the school, and become Etonians in that resiject? , — I hope so. ETOX. Jtei: C. O.Gumlfuid. 8 July 1862. 74. PUBLIC SCHOOLS COMMISSION : —iUNUTES OF EVIDENCE. ETON. 2116. Therefore there seems to be no reason why a mathematical master should not possess the same '''''• status which a classical assistant master lias now ? — C. O.Goodford. ^^ . provided they arc appointed with a view to 8 July 1862. occupying that status. ______ 2117. They might bo pa.ssed over if they were eminently unfitted ibr it. Is there any reason a priori why a matiiematieal assistant, should not have as good practical talents for maintaining discipline, and the general conduct of a school, as assistant classical masters ? — No. 2118. {Mr. Vavghan.) With regard to the prefer- ence of Eton men, "is the general system of discipline, and the mode of applying that discipline by the masters to the boys, peculiar rather to Eton ? — There are certain traditions which are e.^peeted to be ob- served both on the one side and the other. 2119. Do you think that the system would not go on as usual, preserving tlie Etonian spirit, if the masters did not understand it ? — It would not go on so well, I think. 2120. Would it be necessary in order to keep up that spirit in the system, and keep it well understood, that all the masters should be Eton men ? — It would be most desirable. 2121. That all of them should ? — Yes, I think so. 2122. Without exception? — Most desirable if we could get all Eton men. 2123. Do you not think that if you allowed as a principle a few masters not Etonians to be chosen it ■would be of advantage to the school in anotlierway ? ^I do not see how. 2124. You cannot think of any counter-advantage that might result morally and intellectually to the Bchool, if a few of the masters were incidentally chosen from other schools ? — I do not see any advan- tage which could be derived from such a practice. 2125. Do you think that the present system of Eton, as a system, contains within itself all the most perfect methods both with regard to discipline and instruction that could be conceived ? — No. 2126. Do you not think it possible that other schools in some particular respects may have peculiai'ities both in respect to their method of instruction, and their general system which might be even superior to those of Eton ? — Very possible. 2127. Do you think that in respect to those points, in whicli it may be the case that their system may be superior, they are necessarily such points that they could not by any possibility be skilfully incorporated into the Eton system, and thus modify it ? — I do not think it imijossible. 2128. Under those circumstances, do not you think it migbt be of advantage that you should have present among the masters at Eton, one or two who were acquainted practically with the different systems in use at other public schools, capable of making suggestions of a character which those who had not beea at other schools, but simply at Eton would not be likely to do ? — I do not know that it would. 2129. Do you not think that their presence would assure suggestions being made now and then as to the mode in which things were done at other schools, which might be advantageously introduced at Eton, but which Eton men themselves would not be likely to think of ? — I do not know that it would be neces- sary to have them there. 2130. As the system is carried on would it not be of advantage to have them near at hand, a few of them, a small element actually in the school itself, ready to ofler suggestions at any moment without its being necessary either for th<3 Head Master or any of the other masters to write to the masters of other public schools ? — I would rather learn it otherwise. 2131. You do not think then that anything like a general or systematic infusion in a very small degr-ee of the foreign element would be advantageous ? — I do not think it necessary. 2132. I would not merely put it in that way, but ■whether it would be of any advantage ?— I do not think the advantage would counterbalance the dis- advantage of it. 2133. Even to the extent of one or two masters' being systematically chosen from them ? — Yes, even' to that extent. 2134. {Lord Devon.) Are you acquainted with the' Hiu-row system of selecting masters ? — Yes. 213.). You are aware that they are selected under restrictions ? — I thought them unrestricted. 2136. Was not the very general habit of selectinj^ an introduction rather of Dr. Vaughan? — Ido notknow.- 2137. {Lord Clarendon.) With respect to the privileges and advantages of the scholars on the foundatiim, you say you know of no advantage com- mon to the other boys from which they are excluded. We have a decided opinion also upon that ; I should like you to rt-fer to Mr. Johnson's evidence on this' point, in which he says : — " Being asked whether " there are any advantages common to the other boys " from which the scholars are excluded, I reply that " they are excluded from the chief good of an Eton " education, — social intercourse from the great body of " their school-fellows, and I would advise that when " the college increases the number of scholars, or " adds to their exhibitions, the new scholarships or " the exhibitions should be held by boys residing in " the same boarding-houses as oppidans." Another witness also says : — " With respect to other boys, the' " disadvantages of the collegers are owing rather to " the accidents of their position than to any laws or " rules of the school. They live in a separate build- " ing, dine together apart from the oppidans, sit in a " different part of the chapel, and above all, wear " gowns which at once marks them as distinct from " the oppidans." These two statements are in such direct contradiction to your answer, and if true the evil must be so great that I have thought it right to call your attention to them. You disagree with what I have just read ? — Entirelj'. I do not consider it the fact at all. 2138. {Sir S. Northeote.) The latter statement with respect to the boys not dining together, and so on, is not in Mr. Johnson's evidence, but in Mr. Cor- nish's, at page 103 ? — I observe it is. 2139. {Lord Clarendon.) As a matter of fact, is it not tlie case, or do you believe that it is not the case, that either in the lower or the higher part of the school, whichever it may be, there is really a good deal of distinction between the oppi- dans and the collegers ? — I think there is much less distinction th.in there used to be. The distinction used to be very marked indeed. 2140. I see the suggestion is made by a good many masters. Do you think it would be desirable to get rid of the gown ? — No. 2141. Why not ? — I think it would entirely destroy the constitution of the place. I do not see the ad- vantage of it. 2142. What advantage do you see in keeping up a mark of distinction between the oppidans and collegers? — I do not think the taking away of the gown would produce any fusion between the two classes, because that depends much more upon the individual cha- racter of the boys than upon anything else. 2143. {Lord Devon.) Is there not, also, very much dependent upon the fact that one class of boys pay 170/. a year, and the other pays 30/. ? — Yes. 2144. And the fact that the education of the col- legers is to a certain extent eleemosynary, probably, would bo the main cause of the social distinction ? — Yes. 2145. I tliink that it has been stated in more than one quarter that, in consequence of the opening of the scholarships to public competition, the intellectual tone of the college has been much raised, while, at the same time, these social distinctions have been diminished. Is that the fact ? — I should think so. 2146. Do you consider the fact of keeping up the use of these gowns, and thus making the collegers a distinct class, will to some extent excite a feeling of emulation between the two bodies ? — It does. fUBLIC SCHOOLS COMMISSION :— MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. n 2147. Eimilation with respect to the intellectual conipelitioii within the school itself? — Yes. 2148. Do you consider that an advantage ? — Yes. 2149. Does it seem to you that if, instead of wear- ing gowns and being a distinct class at Eton, as at Winchester and in other schools, they were distri- buted about among the other boys and the distinction abolished, that spirit of emulation which arises in consequence of their being partially distinct bodies, would be diminished ? — Yes, I do. 2150. {Sir S. Northcole.) Do you really believe that the progress that has been made by the collegers lately has stimulated the oppidans to make a similar progress ? — No, I think it has rather had the con- trary effect. 2151. {Lord Devon.') I rather meant this. Does not the fact of the existence of these collateral and partially distinct bodies, side by side, have a natural tendency to stimulate both in respect to competition, and if you break up that distinction entirely and merge the collegers and oppidans into one body, that emulation will not continue to exist ?— ^Just so. 2152. {Lord Lyttelton.) I believe you state in your answers that you are clearly of opinion that the collegers themselves would dislike the removal of the go^vn ? — I believe so. 2153. Can you state that as the recollection of your own feelings when you were a colleger ? — No. 2154. You arc speaking of what you know from your recent experience ? — From what I hear. 2155. (Lord De con.) Are you aware what is the feeling of collegers in other schools ? — No, I do not know. 2156. (Mr. Thompson.) Is there not another side to that question. The collegers, as a body, are the sons of poorer men than the parents of the oppidans, are they not ? — Yes. 2157. I presume, then, that their habits are more economical ? — Yes. 2158. The voluntary expenses incurred by the collegers are, in point of fact, less than the volun- tary expenses incurred by oppidans ? — Yes. 2159. Do you think that that difference would con- tinue, if all badges of distinction were swept away ? — They would, if mixed with the oppidans, swim with the stream. 2160. And would not that defeat the intentions of the founder ? — Certainly it would have that tendency. 2161. {Mr. Vaughan.) Is poverty one of the con- siderations which now influences the election of the scholars ? — We can hai'dly tell. 2162. In the competitiQn does it enter into the minds of the electors, when they come to a decision, to consider whether one boy is poorer than another, or not ? — If we knew the case to be so, we should. But we have no opportunity whatever of giving general effect to it. 2163. Does not such a feeling as that tend to give it more of an eleemosynary character than it would have if it were simple competitive examination ? — I do not know. It is so very seldom indeed that we can tell what are the boy's circumstances. 2164. Do you think it is felt at all in the school to tell in the election ? — No, I should think not. I mean to say that I should not think it is feli in the school that we elect a boy because he is poor. 2165. If that element were entirely withdrawn, and it were made a purely competitive as well as a bona fide competitive examination, would that make any difference in the feelings with which collegers so elected would be regarded by the other boys ? — If it were known that boys were simply elected for literary merit. 2166. If it were known that you elected boys to the college simply on the ground of literary merit, without any regard whatever to their circumstances, would that remove the social difference, between the col- legers and oppidans, which is at present caused by the eleemosynary character of the institution ? — I am not prepared to say. 2167. (Mr. Thompson.) Should you think you were justified in sacrificing the eleemosynary cha- racter of the institution to the feelings of the boys ; — No, I do not think we should. 2168. (Mr. Vuiighnn.) I do not ask you whether it would be advisable on account merely of the feelings of the boys to sacrifice the eleemosynary prin- ciple, but simply whether if, on any account, the eleemosyu.ary principle were dropped, it might not have the effect which I mentioned ? — Just so. 2169. {Mr. Thompson.) Do you think that the difference which is made between the collegers and oppidans as to living in a separate building, dining together apart from the oppidans, sitting in different parts of the chapel, and so on, are all cir- cumstances which have an influence in deterring parents of high rank and great wealth from presenting their children to compete for places in the college ? — Yes. 2170. I presume that you do not find men of high rank and great wealth presenting their sons ibr competition for the college ? — No. 2171. Although you make no inquiries ? — Wemake no inquiries. 2172. (Mr. Vaughan.") Can you form an opinion whether such people do not regard it, under the pre- sent state of things, to a certain degree as an elee- mosynary position? — I suppose they do. 2173. Might it be otherwise, supposing it were a mere distinction ? — Do you mean given on the same principles as the senior wranglership at the uni- versity ? 2174. If it were given on the same principle as other distinctions in the school are given, or as a scholarship at Oxford is given, or the senior wran-< glership, might not that make all the difference in respect to the willingness of such persons to send their sons there in order to compete for the position of a colleger ? — It might. 2175. In reference to question 15, in regard to which you say that the change made 18 years ago consists in the examination being a bona fide compe- titive one, should you have any difllculty in supplying to the Commissioners a return with regard to the elections to the school, ranging over the last ten years, of the numbers which have been elected and the period at which each was elected ? — Not the slightest. 2176. Marking those that had been at Eton be- fore their election ? — ^Not the slightest difficulty whatever. 2177. And how long they had been at Eton before their election ? — Yes, I think I can give you that. 2178. You will have no difficulty in supplying that information ? — No ; because when they commenced and when they left must be all down in the books. 2179. {Lord Devon.) Does not the registrar of the college keep a list year by year ? — Not of the candi- dates. 2180. {Mr. Vaughan.) Are not the names of the boys who come forward entered ? — I can inquire. 2181. (Lord Devon.) Are you sure that the en- trances for the examinatioit are registered ? — Yes. 2182. Competitors are not registered? — I do not know whether they are in those cases in which the boys are not elected. 2183. {Mr. Thompson.) With respect to the legal qualifications I am afraid I did not quite understand whether the Commissioners made them refer to ad- mission to the college, or admission to the school ? — 2184. {Lord Clarendon.) To the college ?— There is, as I said the other day, a preference to be given to the natives of Buckinghamshire and Cambridge- shire. 2185. (Mr. Vaughan^ Is that preference actually given ? — If two boys, a Buckinghamshire or Cam- bridgeshire boy,and another boy, ceteris paribtis, come together, the preference is to be given to the Buck- inghamshire or Cambridgeshire boy. 2186. (Lord Clarendon.) Should you consider yourselves bound to observe the statutes in that K 2 EToisr. Itev. C. O.Goodfoiil. 8 July 1802. 76 PUBLIC SCHOOLS COMMISSION :— MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. ETON. Ilev. C. O.Goodford. 8 July 1 362. respect, supposing the boys to be ccctcris paribus ?— Yes. 2187. {Lord Lyttelton.) If the claim were made? —Yes. 2188. {Lord CI are ml 071.) With respect to the admission of the boys, do you think you ought to limit the number admitted to the school. That ques- tion must have very often eugao;ed your consideration, and occupied your thoughts. Do you think that there ought to be a limit, and that if there is not eventually tlic number of boys in the school may be too great? — 60 long as we can accommodate them, I do not see any danger in having a great number of boys. Of course, it depends entirely upon whether we can accommodate them properly. 2189. You see no inconvenience in having a great number of boys ? — Not so long as we can accommo- date them. 2190. You do not consider that beyond a certain limit the school would become unmanageable ? — No. 2191. There would be more masters, I suppose ? — They would increase in proportion. 2192. Your opinion, Dr. Goodford, is that it will not be more difficult to manage a much larger school, and therefore you have no objection to an increase in the number of the school ? — No. 2193. Do you proceed upon the view that Eton would become a sort of university, and that each boarding house would stand in the relative position of a college to the university at large, and you would rely for the intellectual and moral training almost exclusively upon the masters of the several boarding houses ? — We do now in a great degree, and we should only have to carry out the system a little further. 2194. And you think there would not be a greater difficulty with 1,000 boys than there is with 850 ? — I do not think we should find any greater, provided there was room for 1,000. 2195. {Lord Lijttelton.) Have you occasionally obsei-ved any particular consequences arising from there being so large a number of boys. Are you aware that the boys in one part of the school know very little about what other parts are doing, and that it tends rather to break up the school into cliques and coteries ? — I am not aware of it. 2196. Is it not the fact that the boys belonging to the boating and the cricketing interest in the summer are as much apart in their pursuits and habits as the collegers and oppidans are ? — I do not think more than what they used to be. 2197. Have you never had any reason to think that, from the fact of there being so large a number of boys in the school, the boys in a given house, with respect to their games, are a good deal con- fined to the companionship of those boys who are in the same house ? — That does not appear to be the case with the increase of the numbers in the school. I know that at one period when there were not nearly so many boys at Eton as there are now, there were very few cricket clubs and football clubs, but the favourite diversions of the boys were much less desir.able. Now there is a good deal more running about and joining in games in the college. 2198. {Sir S. Northcote.) Does not the great in- crease in the number of boys involve the necessity of having a larger number of assistant masters ? — Yes. 2199. Do you think it possible for a Head Master to exercise an influence equally well over a large number of assistant masters as over a small number ? — He would have more opportunity of conversing with a smaller number, and less difficulty in arraugin"- with them than he would in respect to a large number. 2200. Is there not more danger, from the introduc- tion of a large staff of assistant masters, of differences of opinion amongst themselves, and collisions more or less serious, rendering it necessary that the influence of the Head Master should be exercised ? — I suppose that the larger the number of men the greater would be the difficulty to rule them. " Quot homines tot " sententia;." But I have never seen any evil result- ing therefrom. 2201. You do not think that Eton is too l.irge as a public school now ? — I should not say so. 2202. Do you think the Head Master is able to exercise all the influence he ought to over the general management of a great school ? — I think so. 2203. Supposing the school were diminished in number to 500 boys, and the number of assistant masters was diminished in proportion, would the Head Master be able to exercise a greater influence than ho does over the school at present ? — I do not know what more he could do or would do. 2204. Would it be possible for the Head Master to have any of the school, except his own division, im- mediately under his sui)erintendence and control in so large a school ? — Yes, I think so. 2205. It follows, I suppose, from his position that he gets to know something generally about the school, but do you suppose he knows anything about the boys, except those who are in his own division ? — I was always in the school twice a week with other boys besides my own boys, and when I had not my own class of boys in my room, I used to take two other divisions twice a week. 2206. That is a new arrangement, is it not ? — Yes, 2207. {Mr. Thompson.) You exchanged forms I suppose ? — The master was out of school at the time, and I took his form. 2208. {3[r. Vaughan.) I sujipose it is impossible for the Head Master now to know all the boys in the school ? — I think soniel)ody suggested that the other day. 2209. Does he know them all ? — He calls them at this time of the year. 2210. Does he know them all do you think by sight ? — Except at this period of the year, I should think he would not. 221 1. Is there any disadvantage in his not knowing them by name and character at all ? — It would be better if ho knew them. 2212. You think then that that would be a slight disadvantage in having a very large number of boys ? —Yes. 2213. I suppose it may be fairly taken that the Head Master is really reckoned on the whole to be the superior master in the school in all respects ? — Yes. 2214. Is it possible in a very large school for the boys to come within the care and teaching of the Head Master. Generally speaking, is it not quite a peculiarity for a boy to go up into the Head Master's form? — A great many boys pass away from the school without getting to the sixth form, certainly. 2215. May we take it that those who pass away from the school without getting to the head form very greatly exceed in number those who do get to it, and have the benefit of his teaching ? — The majority of the boys go away without entering his form. 2216. Do 3'ou not think that, generally speaking, considering the arrangements of a public school, that is a great disadvantage ? — They get the teaching of all the other able men in the school. 2217. Do you not think it at all a disadvantage to the school, that taking it regularly and systematically the great majority of the boys would not reach his form, and have the benefit of his teaching, but be obliged to go away from the school without having the aid of the Head Master's teaching and the in- fluence of his character acting upon them ? — It appears to me insuperable even if it is disadvan- tageous. 2218. It may be insuperable in consequence of the existence of the present system, but is it not a disadvantage ? — Very slightly disadvantageous. 2219. W^ith regard to the arrangement of the pro- gress of the boys in their general education as they move up from form to form, is it not very difficult with such very great numbers so to arrange the studies that they may harmonize with the age of the PUBLIC SCHOOLS COMMISSION :— MINUTES OF EVIDENCE, 77 boys and the propji-ess they liave made ? — That there are boys of ditierent ages in the same ]iart of the school is certainly true, but that depends not upon their ap;e, but upon their abilities and the rapidity of their progress. 2220. Can they go from one difficulty to another in their course of instruction with sufficient rapidity if the school is very large by their removes from form to form. Ai-e they not detained longer at the same point of teaching in a very large school? — No, because the whole of the division moves up at a particular time. 2221. Is it not the case that the same work is done at Eton, by some 100 or 200 boys, at the same time ? — It is by the fifth form. 2222. In tliat form, for instance, would not 200 boys be doing the same work at the same time ? — In the fifth form they would. 2223. Not before that ?— No. 2224. What is the next largest form before that vliich contains from 160 to 200 boys ? — The remove. 2225. How long will a boy be getting througli the fiftli form from the remove ? — It is difficult to say how long they would be before they would get into the sixth form, perhajis three years. 2226. Is it not disadvantageous that they should be absolutely doing the same work, reading the same authors, and doing the same composition for three years together ? — No, they liave a eliange before they get to the latter part ; at the end of two* years there is a change. 2227. Is it not disadvantageous that a boy who is going through his classical education should be detained even two years over the same authors, constantly doing the same amount of work ? — I think we might have a variety, but if tliere is any necessity for such a change it does not arise from the increase in the numbers in the school. 2228. Is it unconnected with it ? — It is not at all connected with it. 2229. In the present state of things, would it not be ditficult to change that without entirely remodelling the whole S3Stem ? — Yes. 2230. Are you prepared entirely to remodel the whole system? — Not in consequence of any dis.advnn- tage wliich arises from the increase in the number of boys ; I do not think that the increase in their number necessitates it. 2231. Is it a disadvantage wliich exists in schools in which the nnmliers of pupils are much smaller, do j'ou know ? — I do not see why it could not be changed. 2232. Do you know whether other schools as they have increased iji 'numbers, although the number of their boys has been less than that of Eton, have been compelled totally to remodel the system and organization of their forms ? — I do not know. 2233. {Lord Lyttelton.) Apart from the question of numbers, Eton has always been a school in which the personal influence of the Head Master has always been somewhat less relatively than in other schools ? — I should think it is. 2234. {Lord Clarendon.) Yon say in your written answers, " the admission of boys not being foundation " scholars is contemplated by the statutes, as is plain " from statute 14. There is no limit to the number " so admitted. The Head Master is by that statute " forbidden to demand or claim anything for the in- " struction of such scholars. This clause was " omitted on the appointment of the present Head ^' Master." By whose authority was it omitted ? — By the authority of the Provost. When I was admitted to that office of Head Master, I said I could not undertake the office, swearing to receive nothing for boys who came to the school, and that clause of the oath was omitted. 2235. I can understand Dr. Goodford, that you did not feel justified in taking the oath prescribed •Subsequently the witness suggested that "a year aud a hMf would liave been a more correct expression on his part than " twc years." by the statute, but by whom were you remitted from taking the oath or any portion of it ? — I presume it was by the clause in the Ileformationes et Correc- tioncs that it was omitted. 2236. Was it the Provost who remitted the obliga- tion imposed on you to fake that oath on accepting the Head Mastership ? — Yes. 2237. {Mr. Vanghan.) But the Provost himself was not obeying tlie statutes in not requiring the oath to be put to you ? — Perhaps not. 2238. {Lord Clarendon.) I understand the diffi- culty in which you were placed with respect to taking the oath, but if the Provost can dispense with part of an oath required Ijy the statutes to be taken, he can do so in respect to anything else pre- scribed by the statutes, consequently the statutes must become null altogether, if it is in the power of the Provost to deal with them in that way. Should you, as Provost, think it right or necessary to adopt such a course ? — I follwed tlie same precedent on tho adiuission of Mr. Balston to the Head Mastership. 2239. Did he entertain the same conscientious scruples in reference to taking the oath ? — I forget whether he made any scruple about it or not. I think it was done as a matter of course, and this case was taken as a precedent. 2240. I dare say the answer is familiar to you which Dr. Goodall made to a similiar inquiry when he was examined Ijcfore Mr. Brougham's committee, in 1818, namely, that the statute did not prohibit him from receiving payment, but it prohibited him from demanding it ? — I do not assent to that interpretation of the statutes at all. 2241. Do you consider that that statute forbids both demanding and receiving payment for such scholars ? — Yes. 2242. And, as Dr. Goodall says, it would be dis- ingenuous to say that tlie charge has never been exacted by the master, but by the person who brought the boy up. It would be a mere subterfuge to say it was not demanded by you, because it was de- manded by another person for you. Is not that your opinion ? — Yes, because it is demanded on my autho- rity. 2243. Now, as you have proceeded with respect to Mr. Balston exactly in the same manner as the late Provost did by yourself, namely, on the authority of your reading of the statute, I will ask you this ques- tion : Do you consider yourself justified in altering, or modifying, or omitting any other part of tho statutes on what appears to you good valid reasons ? — No, I do not know that I should. I inforced this statute as I found it when I took the office of Provost. 2244. That is not quite sufficient that you enforced it as you found it. You must have had an opinion of your own as to whether it was right. You would not do it merely because it was done before. You must have considered yourself to have authority to suspend that portion of the oath in that particular case ? — I conceive that the Propositus had this au- thority in the ease of the Informator, and that this was the view which Dr. Goodall took of it. 2245. That was the authority by which you con- sidered yourself sanctioned ? — Yes. 2246. But that would apply to anything else in the statutes, and their force would consequently depend upon the construction which is put upon them by the Provost. Do you think that that is any sufficient reason for altering them. Do you think that they are to depend upon the construction of the Provost, — not even of the Provost and Fellows, but of the Pro- vost alone. Is that your view of the matter ? — No ; but when I came to take the office of Head Master, I said I could not take that oath. 2247. WHien you came to the office of Head Master ? — Yes ; I said 1 could not take the office with that oath, and that clause of the oath waa omitted. I had not then read the " Reformationes et " correctiones," but I did afterwards, and concluded that that was the authority on which it was done, and I believe it to be good authority. K 3 ETON, Rev. C. O. Goodford. 8 July 1862 78 PUBLIC SCHOOLS COMMISSION: — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. ETON. Rev. C. O Goodford. 8 July 1862. 2248. And equally good authority, I presume, for altering or omitting altogetlier any other part of the statutes from beginning to end? — I never viewed it so. 2249. In what way could you make any distinction ? I do not know where to draw the distinction, ex- cei)t as in the Beformalioncs et Corrcctiones. 2250. You are not aware, Dr. Goodford, when was the first occasion of this omission, are you ? — It appears that that was. I do not believe it was omitted in the case of my predecessor. 2251. It was not ? — I do not believe it was. 2252. Did he take the oath ? — As far as I know, he did. 2253. I suppose that he considered the oath pretty much in the same light as Dr. Goodall did ?— I do not know whether Dr. Hawtrey raised the objection. He did not say that he raised the objection when he was Head Master. 2254. In point of fact, you do not know how long it is since the statute ceased to be observed in this respect ? — It is clear, according to Dr. Goodall's evi- dence, which you have just referred to, that the oath was taken then. He administered the oath, and from my predecessor having made no remark to me about its having been omitted in his case, I presume he took it, but I cannot say for certain. 2255. You never heard of any clause in the oath having been omitted till your case ? — I never heard of it. 2256. I wish to ask you further, whether the Head Master is in some cases in the habit of remitting charges to parents whom he knew to be very poor ? —Yes. 2257. That continues to be the case now, does it ? —Yes. 2258. Dr. Goodall says, where poverty is pleaded, no demand is ever made. I think he says that ? — The cases are not common. 2259. But it rather struck me in the answers of one of the masters, I cannot remeraber exactly wlio it was, that he very often made charges according to •what he understood or discovered to be the circum- stances of the parents. That feeling may be very prevalent and would be prompted bj' s very good motive. I suppose that would l)e done in the esse of the Head Master's scholars when he has reason to know that it would be very acceptable ? — The eases are not common at all, but I do not mean to say that there are not a number of persons to whom such a remission might not have been made. 2260. When Dr. Goodall was Head Master, there were 10 out of the 70 collegers who did not pay for their instruction, but the fact was concealed from the tutors ? — They did not pay the Head Master, I presume. I do not think it refers to any charges, except to the charges of the Head Master. 2261. (Lord Lyttclton.) Now the scholars do not pay the Head Master, but they did then ? — Yes. 2262. At the time you speak of, there were boys among the scholare who did not pay, but they were not oppidans ? — No, I think they were all in college, but I do not know exactly. 2263. Has that been the case among the oppidans within your knowledge ? — I have known cases among the oppidans, but it is not common. 2264. Are you aware whether there is any record or historical evidence of the admission according to the statutes in early times of a class of oppidans who did not pay for their instruction, apart from the foundation ? — I do not know at all. 2265. Do you know how long back j'ou can trace the existence of the class of oppidans at Eton ? — No. 2266. A long time ? — A very long time. 2267. And is there no evidence of the admission of oppidans who made no payments to the Head Master ? — I do not know. 2268. Should you presume that since the time the original number of the masters was exceeded, pay- ments have been made by the oppidans ?— I have no ^iotion whatever. , 2269. {3Ir. Vatighan.') In this particular case in which the Provost has dispensed with the oath, could it at all bo said that the sanction for any departure from the statutes is to be found in the words : " De- " cassum et ablationem possessionem et redittuura " dicti collegii turn propter varia pericula et damna " qua? possunt dicto collegio et personis ejusdem " verisimiliter evenire non possunt ab eisdem com- " mode observari declaramus et volumus quod jurati " observationem statutorum et ordinationum dicti " collegii." Could those words ever be made to apply ? — It would be a great loss to the master not to be able to take it. 2270. The " pericula et damna qua; possunt dicto " collegio et personis ejusdem," must not that apply to the " pericula, &c." of the college, or be connected with it ? — They are mentioned in different items, " turn propter varia." 2271. You do not think that "losses" in the con- nexion in which it stands to " dicto collegio et per- " sonis" applies to personal losses involved in loss of the college property ? — They appear to me to be two different things, 2272. You do think that " losses " can mean mere loss of the opportunity of gaining money? — It would cut otf the livelihood they have. 2273. As well as the actual loss of anything which the college or themselves had ? — It would be a great loss which they would incur. 2274. Do you happen to know whether the Bishop of Lincoln had given any opinion at the time when this dispensation was first made, — not in your case, but before you became Head Master — with respect to the necessity of usage to justify departure from that statute ? — I do not know. 2275. Have you any opinion upon the subject ? — I have no reason to suppose that he had. 2276. Suppoising that the same opinion of the visitor which was given to yourself on becoming Provost had been given to the last Provost immediately before he dispeiiged with this oath on your part as Head Master, would that opinion have warranted him in dispensing with the oath ? — I think it would. 2277. Was it or was it not a part of the opinion of the Bishop of Lincoln, that it gave you, or any other person in your position, a power of dispensing with anything which usage had previously dispensed with ? — Reasonable usage was, I think, my question to him. 2278. Would it have warranted the Provost and Fellows in departing from any portion of the statutes in which usage had not already sanctioned the de- parture ? — I suppose it would not. 2279. I do not mean now, but when there was an omission to put the oath to you. Did the usage of the college then sanction that departure from the statutes ? — I do not know what had taken place before. 2280. You are not aware whether the gentleman who was Head Master prior to yourself took the oath ? — I presume he did. 2281. According to that presumption did the nsage of the college in the case in which the oath was not put to you justify or sanction the departure from the statute? — Perhaps you will have the goodness to repeat that question. 2282. If the previous Head Master to yourself had had the oath put to him, was it not the case that the omission to put the oath to you as Head Master was not sanctioned by the usage of the college ? — Yes. 2283. {Lord Clarendon.) We will now go on to question 18, and in the written answer to that you say : " The charge for board and lodging is about " 80/., or guineas, a year." Is there any cheek put upon that charge by the Head Master. Is there, in point of fact, any control over the assistant masters when they are permitted to take boarding houses ? — No, he does not see the bills. 2284. Nothing is prescribed to him about the charge which he is to make ? — He learns that from other masters. PUBLIC SCHOOLS COMMISSION : — MINUTES OP EVIDENCE. 79 2285. But he is not bound to follow another master. Each assistant master has his own pupils ? — No, but he knows what he ought to charge. 2286. You sec it is more than 21. 2s. a week for board and lodging for the number of weeks in a year that the boy is there. I believe you consider about 37 weeks the Eton school time in the course of the year, do you not ? — I forget the exact time. Yes, I think it is 37 weeks and two days. 2287. I think that in other schools we have found that about 40/. is what the}' consider the expense of a boy. If that is correct, the diet being almost exactly the same, say, for instance, at Eton or Har- row, the assistant masters would get about 40/. a year profit upon each boy. Is that intended to cover the tuition of the boy, or is it simply what the boarding house master receives for the living of the pupils ? — Yes, for the board and lodging of the pupils. 2288. Does he receive anything else, either from the Head Master, or from the pupils, for tuition ? — The board and the tuition is charged in one sum. 2289. The assistant master receives no salary then ? — He receives from the Head Master 44/. 2s. annually. 2290. Each assistant master ? — ^Yes. 229L (Lord Li/ttelton.) Do you distinguish the board and lodging ? — Yes, for board and lodging for each pupil it is 80/. 2292. They are always charged in one item ? — I am speaking of the dames' houses. -2293. {Mr. Thompson.) In the dames' houses, does that include tuition ? — No. 2294. {Lord Lyttelton.) There ai-e 28 of them ?— fcs. 2295. {Mr. Thompson.') Is the boarding house naster necessarily a ])rivate tutor ? — Yea. 2296. {A Commissioner.) In all boarding houses, 80/. is the charge for board and lodging? — Not in all. In some it is less, but there are exti-as which run it up to about the same charge. 2297. In the other houses, is the charge made up to the sum of 80/.?— Yes. 2298. And it is the same in the dames' houses ? — Yes. 2299. {Lord Clarendon.) Then how does an assis- tant master who has not a boarding house live ? — He lives in lodgings, or perhaps in a dame's liouse. 2300. Where does he get his remuneration ? — From his pupils. 2301. From private pupils ? — Yes. 2302. {I^ord Lyttelton.) Such pupils as he can get? — Yes. 2303. {Lord Clarendon.) In each case, I believe, there is an entrance fee of five guineas. I believe in certain cases, for the sons of noblemen, for instance, the charge is double ; has that always been the case ? —Yes. 2304. {A Commissioner.) Does that apply to the boarding houses ? — No. 2305. {Lord Lyttelton.) The cnta-ance fee goes to the Head Master ?— Yes. 2306. {Lord Clarendon.) Nobility and wealth are supposed to be synonymous ? — I suppose that is really the origin of the increased charge. 2307. The policy was rather to flatter than to repel? — I cannot state positively what the origin was. 2308. You s.iy that " in each case there is an eu- " trance fee of 5 guineas. To this i« to be added an " annual payment to the Head Master of 6 guineas, " to the tutor of 10 guineas, or, in the case of a '• private pupil, of 20 guineas ;" is that obligatory or not ? — It is not at all obligatory; it is quite optional. 2309. But if not obligatory, it is generally usual for the pupil to pay that charge, is it not ? — It was not so when I was assistant master. 2310. What was your own expei-ience as an assist- ant master ? — Generally speaking, the boys became private pupils when they got into the fifth form. 2311. Not before ? — No, not generally. 2312. How many boys do you think have not a Drivate tutor in the upper school ? — I cannot say. 2313. Would you not say that nearly all have ? — I think it very likely, but I am not certain ; I cannot give a more positive answer. 2314. What is the general usage of the school in reference to the boys having private tutors ? — Every boy has a tutor. 2315. But I mean a private tutor ? — I really do not know ; I cannot answer the question.* 2316. In the lower school, do you think, it is not the general usage ? — In the lower school, I think, there is a fixed payment. 2317. Do you not think it possible to make a state- ment with regard to the average amount of bills a boy would bo called upon to pay. Of course, you cannot give a strictly accurate return, as the expense varies so much in different cases; you could, however, give us some idea of what is the maximum and mini- muin, and thereby enable us to form some average? — With regard to my experience, I do not think I ever had a boy whose bills amounted to less than 150/., of more than 210/. 2318. We have two copies of bills actually sent in to parents of scholars, one is given in Mr. Paul's evidence, and the other in Mr. Ilardisty's ? — Mr. Wolley has also sent in one. 2319. I take it you will have no objection to put in a statement showing what in your opinion is the average ? — I can only tell you ^\hat is the result of my own experience. I Ihink it will be safest to put a maximum and a minimum. 2320. With reg.ard to the annual payment to the tutor of 10 guineas, is that alwaj's general, or is it only for the classics ? — For classics only. 2321. If he is a private pupil to a mathematical master, he pays 10 guineas also, does he not ? — Yes. 2322. Besides the 10 guineas for learning mathe- matics ? {Mr. Vangkan..) No, that is only four. 2323. {I^ord Clarendon.) Then he pays 4 guineas for permission to leiu-n mathematics, and 10 guineas to be instructed in them ? {Mr. Tlwmpson.) Four guineas to be taught, and 10 guineas to learn ? — He pays four guineas for the mathematical instruction given in class in school ; if in addition to this he wishes for private tuition he pays 10 guineas ; it is on the same footing as private tuition at the universities. 2324. {Lord Clarendon.) And with regard to mo- dern languages, the same thing, of course ? — Yes. 2325. What is the amount in that case ? — Ten guineas. 2326. Do the modern language masters take private pupils too ? — No. 2327. NeT,-er?— No. 2328. Therefore the boys arc dependent for learn- ing modern languages iqion what they can get for this payment of 10 guineas ? — Yes, the boy depends upon what he gets for his 10 guineas. 2329. The mathematics are obligatory, I believe ? —Yes. 2330. {Mr. Thompson.) Suppose a boy has a private tutor in classics, a private tutor in mathematics, and learns French and German, is it the case that it costs him 61/. 6.S. per annum for tuition alone ? — {Lord Clarendon.) I think that excludes Classical tuition. 2331. {Mr. Thompson.) The Head Master has 6 guineas, the tutor and private tutor in classics 21/., the mathematical master for school work 4 gui- neas, the mathematical private tutor 10 guineas, the French master 10 guineas, the German master 12 gui- neas. I find I have understated the total amount, which is 65/. 2s., instead of 61/. 6s., for what I call tuition, which is instruction in everything, in- cluding superintendence and school fees ; in point of fact, for what a boy at Rugby would pay 26/. 10s., and sit some other places only 20/., the boy here would be required to pay 65/. 2s. ; do you agree in the • From a return subsequently f urnialied by the Provost, dated 21 st July 18h"i, it appeal's that the total " number of pupils at Eton who did not pay for private tuition " was 64. K 4 ETON. liev. C. O.Gooilford. 8 July 186?. 80 PUBLIC SCHOOLS COMMISSION :— MINUTES OF EVIDENCK. ETON. liev. C. O. Goodford. a July 1862. accuracy of that stntement ?— If a boy lias all those masters, I have no doubt he jiays that sum. 2332. And if he saves French and Gei-m.in, it would still come to 43/.?— I liave no doubt it will. 2333. {Lord Clarendon.) The mathematical tuition of the scholars is gratuitous ? — Yes. 2334. {3Ir. Vanghan.) You have omitted one item, which only occurs once, and that is for the en- trance to these several things. There is a guinea to French, a guinea to German, and so on ; are not those sums to be added to the sums which have been mentioned ? — I believe so. 233.3. {Sir S. Korthcote.) What advantages are possessed by a boy who is a private pupil, which are not possessed by a boy who is not a private pupil ? — That would depend upon what the tutor might find the boy to be weakest in. Wherever he had a defi- ciency, he would attempt to supply it. 2336. Then is it the practice for tutors to take great pains in what is called private business ? — Yes. 2337. They are only private pupils who are ad- mitted to the private business ? — With the exception of the scholars. 2338. And this is the real distinction between a private pupil and one who is not a private pupil, namely, that the one gets private business, while the other does not ? — Yes. 2339. {Mr. Vavglian.) Is there or is there not also a payment of 5 guineas for entrance for the Head Master, in addition to the payment of 6 guineas annually ? — Yes. 2340. And in the case of the lower school, is there not also the payment to the lower master of an en- trance fee of three or four guineas? — Y''es, and one also to the Head Master. The boys in the lower school used formerly to pay both, but they do not now. 2341. {Mr. Thompson.) Allow me to ask whether these sums have increased within recent memory ? — Not within my knowledge. 2342. It would have come to your knowledge as Head Master, if there had been any increase in your time ? — Yes. 2343. Do you imagine that the charge for board has been increased ? — I think not. 2344. {Mr. VaiKjhan.) Is it not the case that it is the custom for every boy on leaving the school to pay his tutor 15 guineas ? — He makes his tutor a present. 2345. That is the custom, the general custom ? — Yes. 234fi. And is it not also the custom to pay a certain sum to the Head Master ? — Yes. 2347. Is not that sum 10/. ?— It is usually 10/., and higher if a boy happens to be in the sixth form. 2348. What does it amount to then ?— £15 or 20/. 2349. {Lord Lyttelton.) A nobleman pays some- what more than that ? — Yes, more than the 10/. some- times. 2350. {Mr. Vmighan.) The payment, then, depends on the social rank of the boy ? — Yes. 2351. {Sir S. Nortlicote.) Are you aware that there is a great divoi'sity of practice among the assist- ant masters in taking the leaving fees ? — I am not aware. 2352. You do not happen to know that in some cases, it is not t.aken ? — No. 2353. Nevertheless, in some cases it is not taken from any one, and in others it is taken from some, and not from others ? — Yes. 2354. {Lord Clarendon.) Do not you think that that is a very bad system, namely that the parent should depend upon the will of the master, whether this honorarium should be paid or not ? — I do. 2355. Do you not think it ought to be a regular charge made, and that the parent ought to know before his sons go to Eton, that upon leaving school they would be expected to pay these fees to the assist- ant and Head Master ? — Yes. 2356. And you think it ought to be a fixed sum? — I think so. 2357. That is if allowed to be paid at all ?— Yes. 2358. {Lord Lyttelton.) Do you not think that every pareut on sending his son to Eton, ought to know fully what the whole expense would be ? — Yes. 2359. And you think also that there should be no distinctions with regai-d to payment ? — No ; I think there shoidd be no distinctions. {Mr. Thompson, referring to Carlisle's Endowed Grammar Schools, vol. i. p. 81.) There is a table here of the expenditure, I do not know whether it rests upon any antbority, but there is one part which deserves some consideration. The date is the year 1818, and it says the present terms for education and board for oppidans are, for the master 6 guineas, tutor 10 guineas, lx)ard, washing and seiwants, 50/., and it adds that the other expenses exclusive of extra masters ought not to exceed 33/. 4s., making a total of 100/. per annum. That is to say, that if the expenses of the boys are properly restricted, the annu.al charge ought not to exceed 100/., and it goes on to say, " that is a sum far less than the public " generally imagine, and is deserving of the highest " commendation of every friend of leaniing." This is a statement made by Mr. Carlisle. (L^ord Clarendon.) In what year ? 2360. {Mr. Thompson.) In 1818, which is not very long ago, therefore at some period since that date a very considerable rise must have taken place in the scale of charges, which Dr. Goodford says could not have been done without the knowledge of the Head Master and of the Provost. I suppose the accommo- dation has since then been very much improved ? — Yes. 2361. {Lord Devon.) You have told us that no fresh charge can be imposed or enforced without the authority of the Head Master, under the sanction of the Provost, I suppose you mean by that any charge additional to those which are now demanded ? — Y'es. 2362. That implies, I suppose, the power of the Head Master to secure unifonnity of charge in all the different houses, is that so ? — Yes, 2363. So that if in c^ne house they chose to cha}"ge for board and lodging 90/., you would interfere ? — Y^es. 2364. Would you interfere as Provost ? — Yes. 2365. Which would interfere, the Pi-ovost or Head Master ? — The Head Master would interfere in the first instance. 2366. Supposing that one of the assistant masters chose to charge less, would there be any interference then ? — I imagine not. 2367. {Lord Clarendon.^ You say that the French master received during 1860 for himself and assistant 1,318/. 175., do you happen to know what the assist- ant French master received ? — I do not know what arrangements were made with regard to him. 2368. Who appoints him ? — The French master asked my permission to appoint him. He was a French Protestant clergyman ; he came to me, and taught my own children for some time, and after that I allowed him to be appo^inted assistant master. 2369. Without making any arrangement with him as to his emoluments ? — He and Mr. Tarver would arrange that between them. 2370. He was appointed, I believe, about two years ago ? — That was a different master. That gentleman went away a year ago. I am now speaking of the last appointment. 2371. But up to May 1860 there was only one French master ? — There had been more previously. 2372. During the time you were Head Master, was there more than one French master ? — Yes. 2373. Was that French master an Englishman ?■— No ; he was a Frenchman, or rather he was au Englishman born, but his father was a Frenchman. 2374. Then there was one French master for 800 boys ? — But the 800 boys did not all learn Frencn. 2375. In May I860 there was another master appointed, was there a demand for him ? — Yes. 2376. Did more boys require to learn French, or was it thought that one master was unable to do .all that was necessary himself? — I required another master to PUBLIC SCHOOLS COMMISSION : — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. SI be Appointed. I thought the then master wanted assistance in teaching the French school, 2377. And a Frenchman was then appointed ? — Yes. 2378. Why did lie leave ? — He left because he received an appointment in France, which required him to leave in the following summer ; he left ubout the end of June or somewhere thereabout. 2379. Then he did not leave in consequence of the insufficient emoluments he received ? — I never heard so. He called on me a short time ago, having come over to see the Great Exhibition, and he made no complaint to me of anything of that sort. 2380. The present assistant master is a Frenchman born? — Yes, or rather the late assistant master was, for since Easter, I think, he has ceased to be employed. 2381. So an Englishman reigns sole and supreme now ? — I think so, but I do not know exactly. I am really unable to say whether any one else has been appointed in his place. , The matter is one that does not come before me now, 2382. But the only assistant French master of whom you have any knowledge, left some time ago ? —Yes. 2383. AVhen did he leave ?— At Easter. 2384. And you have not heard of any other assis- tant master being appointed at Eton ? — No. 2385. So that there is at present one Englishman to teach French at Eton ? — So far as I know, but I am not able to answer the question with strict accuracy. 2386. {Lord Devon.) Would not the appointment necessarily come before you as Provost ? — I think it might or it might not, I will not be certain whether it would come before me or not, 2387. It would i)ot come before you as a matter of course ? — No, 2388. We have heard that nothing can take place in the school, not even a fresh book, without its coming to the Provost's knowledge and requiring his sanction, how is it then, that an assistant master whom you thought necessary to have in addition to the other master can be disjiensed with or sent away, and another appointed or not, as the case may be, without your knowledge as Provost ? — I do not believe that any one has been appointed, but I am not able to say so for certain. 2389. But you know that the assistant master left at Easter ? — Yes. 2390. As the Provost is the general superintendent of the school, would he not naturally inquire whether an assistant master had been lately re-appointed ? — All I can say is that I have not heard of any re- ap- pointment having been made. 2391. And yet you had felt the necessity of ap- pointing an assistant master, and had required one to be appointed ? — Yes. 2392. Surely in such a case when a vacancy oc- curred, and it became necessary to make a new appointment, the question ought to have been brought to your knowledge ? — I have not heard of any re- appointment. 2393. In fact there is nothing but this one French master at Eton ; is not that the case ? — I do not know. I do not believe there is any other. 2394. Who paid the assistant master ? — The French master. 2395. Was it a deduction out of the payments he received ? — Yes. 2396. You say that his receipts in 1860 amounted to 1,318/. 17s., that would represent about 120 pupils, would it not ? — Something like that. 2397. {Mr. Vaughaji.) About 100 boys learn French, I believe ? — Yes. 2398. {Lord Lyttelton.) Then at the time of the appointment of the assistant master, was there only one gentleman to teach 100 boys ? — If I recollect rightly he had upwards of 80 to teach. 2399. {I^ord Clarendon.') Is not the present French muster a salaried master ? — No. 1. 2400. His predecessor, Mr. Tarver, was not con- sidered competent, was he ? — Yes, I think so. 2401. He was a very old man, was he not ? — Not when he was appointed. 2402. I mean when he was induced to vacate ? —No. 2403. But he was induced to vacate ? — I do not think he was. 2401-. I believe he was induced to vacate upon the promise of a jointure of 300/. a year, to be secured to his wife ? — I never heard of it till this moment. I do not know what your authority is for your statement, but I must sfiy that I never heard a whisper of such a thing before. 2405. {Lord L>/ttelto7i.) He may have made a pri- vate arrangement with his successor. He may have made an .arrangement to pay his mother a jointure ? — I know nothing about it. 2406. Mr. Johnson states in page 61, " The study " of French cannot in reason be expected to prosper, " except with a few really zealous boys, since no " place is allowed for it in the time table. It ought " to be enforced on all, like Latin." What is your opinion upon that point ? — 2407. {Lord Clarendon.) Allow me to ask you first, whether you recognize the importance of the study of modern languages ? — Yes, I do. 2408. Do you think that the Head Master and the Provost should require modern laugu.ages to be taught, and not only taught but learnt ? — I believe that we do require them to be taught to all boys who wish to learn them. 2409. I can scarcely think that you take much piFins in the matter when j'ou have only one master for so many boys, especially when there is no time given and no place allowed for the study of the modern languages in the time table ; under such cir- cumstances how can it be said that French is properly taught ? — Tlie boy fixes the time with the French master. 2410. That is quite away from the question ; he might fix the time for anything else without deriving much benefit from it, but that fact alone would not teach him French. Can you seriously say that the study of modern languages can be recognized by the school so long as there is no time allowed for it in the time table, and it forms no part of the regular curriculum ? — In point of fact it is an extra. 2411. Therefore the importance of modern Lan- guages is not recognized at Eton ; is not that so ? — I do not think so. 2412. You do not treat it as part of the regular study ? — We could not do that without making the whole of the school learn it. 2413. And why should not the whole of the school learn it ? — I do not see how they are to be taught. 2414. Why should they not be taught ? — I do not see how they are to be taught. I do not know how to set about teaching the whole school. 2415. Would it not have to be done by regular French masters ? — Yes. 2416. That would be the proper way of doing it, would it not ? — No doubt ; but I do not think it prac- ticable. 2417. Why not ? — I do not see where we are to get it into the work of the school. 2418. You are aware, are you not, that at Rugby the practice of making mathematics and modern lan- guages a part of the regular business of the school has worked extremely well. The arrangement was first made by Dr. Arnold, and having worked well it has been continued and improved upon ? — There are two French masters at Eugby for 450 boys. Oae of them also teaches German, and the senior of the two derives an income from general teaching ; one also keeps a boarding house ; therefore at Eugby the study of the French is made part of the regular curriculum. 2419. It has now been established for 30 years. It has been continued by successive masters, and has been reported by the present master to be working ETON. 7?<;i>. C. O. GooiforJ. 8 July 1SC2. 82 PUBLIC SCHOOLS COMMISSION:— MINUTES OF EVIDENCE, ETON. liev. C. O. Goodford 8 July 1862. exceedingly well. Can you tell me why what has been successful at Rugby should be impossible at jjton ? — I wrote to one of the masters at Kugby when I thought that the study of the modern languages might be introduced at Eton, and his reply as to the success of the system at Rugby was not such as to induce me to adopt it at Eton. That was the effect of the answer I received from Dr. Goulburn, to whom I wrote. 2420. I am afraid all we can gather from what you have stated is, that the study of the modern lan- guages as part of the regular system at Eton is not to be thought of ? — I really do not see how we could introduce it into the regular work. 2421. {Lord Lyttelton.) You mean you would be required to sacrifice some of the existing system for it, and that you are not prepared to do ? — Yes. I got as far as to induce every master to state at what time of the day his pupils could be free in order to enable them to attend the modern language masters. 2422. Was that time to be deducted from the ex- isting school hours ? — No. 2423. Do you see any other difficulties in the way except those that you have already stated ? — I do ; for instance great difficulty would arise in conse- quence of the large number of boys attending the school. 2424. Will you state all the difficulties that have occurred to you ? — I think the number of boys at the school would be a great difficulty. 2425. In what respect ? — I mean as to arranging the classes. I believe if you were to attempt to teach the whole school, there would be a great difficulty in getting Frenchmen to manage English boys. 2426. And you do not think it would be easy to get an Englishman to perform the duties? — I do not. 2427. {Lord Devon.) Have you made any inquiries at Marlborough College ? — No. 2428. Are you aware that teaching modern lan- guages is carried on to a very great extent there ? — I was not aware. 2429. You know that the boys at that school have attained very considerable classical and mathematical distinction ? — Yes. 2430. {Sir S. Northcote.) You say you think the size of the school would create very considerable dif- ficulty ? — We must have it small for a foreigner to manage. 2431. Supposing that French was an important element in education, would the size be any reason why it should not be taught ? — I can only repeat that there would be great difficulty. 2432. Are you aware whether the boys who have learnt French regularly there with the master have generally been able to keep up with the other boys in their ordinary school work ? — For all I know I think they have. 2433. Have they taken the time to learn French out of their play hours ? — Yes. 2434. Then it appears there is time for the boys to play, to do the regular school work, and to learn French in addition ? — I have no doubt of it. 2435. A good deal depends, I suppose, on the willingness of the boy to learn ? — Exactly. 2436. If a little boy takes to it with a will, you think he would make more progress than if compelled to go to it as a matter of mere discipline ? — I believe 60. 2437. Ai'e you aware that exercises have lately been done for prizes by way of holiday tasks, given by the assistant master in order to stimulate the boys to improve themselves in French ? — Yes. 2438. There are now, I believe, what are called Prince Consort's prizes given away ? — Yes. 2439. They generally lead to a good deal of com- petition, do they not ? — Yes. 2440. How many compete for them ? — I think about 60 or 70. Every boy is at liberty to offer himself to be examined in modern languages at the regular Bchool examinations. 2441. {Sir S. Northcote.) I presume that boys would not offer themselves to compete for Priiice Consort's prizes any more than than they would for other scholarships, unless they thought they had some prospect of distinguishing themselves ? — Unless they thought they had some chance of showing that they knew something on the subject. 2442. They think they have a chance of doing something creditable, and they look forward, if unsuc- cessful, to the prospect of standing again on some future occasion for acquiring distinction ? — Yes. 2443. Then besides Prince Consort's prizes, are you aware that it is the practice of the assistant masters to set holiday tasks to be done in French in order that the boys may get up certain French books ? ^I know that some do that. 2444. Besides that, French may be taken up, I think, in the middle division trials ? — Yes, by any boy in the fifth form. 2445. And the marks he gets in the French will count for assisting him in his place in the school ? —Yes. 2446. Therefore there are some inducements of- fered to the boys to induce them to improve themselves in French ? — Yes, but there is nothing compulsory. 2447. Do you think it desirable to sacrifice any of the present classical work of the school ? — I think not. 2448. But you would desire, would you not, to see facilities given to the boys to improve themselves in French ; some stimulus such as I have just alluded to offered to them ? — Certainly. 2449. If there were any considerable number of boys wishing to learn French at the school, would not the Head Master, or the Pi'ovost, or the autho- rities, endeavour to take steps to provide additional French teachers ? — No doubt, if the number learning French made it necessary. 2450. If the demand forFrenchwere in some manner a spontaneous demand, I suppose the French master would find much less difficulty in securing order among the boys ? — Yes ; because the boys would be anxious to get on, and would necessarily be attentive, for their own sakes. 2451. As a general question, are you satisfied with the present arrangements for French teaching ? — No, I should be glad to see them improved. 2452. What improvement would you suggest ? — I should like to seerf)ne more master. 2453. And might not some more regular arrange- ment be made as to the hours at which the boys attend ? — Yes, that is what I proposed to the masters myself, namely, that they should set apart some defi- nite period of the day when it could be said that any boy who desired to learn the modern languages would be free. 2454. In connexion with this are you able to say, and I know it is rather a difficult question to answer, for how many hours a day a boy is engaged in his regular school work ? — No, I cannot say, it differs so very much. 2455. I will take a whole school-day, and suppose the case of a fifth-form boy ? — It is quite impossible to say ; it depends entirely upon the boy and upon his tutor. 2456. You do not mean that there would be any difficulty in saying how many hours a boy was in school ? — Yes, I do. 2457. I take it, that you mean rather how many hours a boy would be engaged in his school work ? — Yes. 2458. How many hours is a boy in school in a whole school day ? — That would depend on the boy. The boy who had to repeat his lesson first, and who knew it very well, might be out in five minutes. He would have to go back again in about three-quarters of an hour to have his exercise looked over. He would then be out in five minutes more; but it might take another boy very much more than that. 2459. Leaving the repetition lessons out of the question, how many hours would a boy be in school PUBLIC SCHOOLS COIDIISSION :— MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. S3 in a day ? — He would be in three three-quarters of an hour. 2460. {Lord Clarendon.) That would be altogether nine quarters of an hour ? — Yes, besides his repetition lesson. 2461. {Sir S. Northcote.) Allowing a quarter of an hour for that, that would give two hours and a half?— Yes. 2462. Besides that, he would have to prepare his lessons, and to go to his tutor for the purpose of con- struing them. His tutor would have to look over his exercises ; and I presume, with regard to the fiftli form, he would be left at liberty to do his exer- cises at such time as he found most convenient ? — Yes. 2463. Then is a boy of average abilities occupied more than two hours and a half in preparing his work ? — I do not know that he is. 2464. {Lord Lyttellon.) You cannot say how many hours an ambitious boy, reading for the Newcastle prizes, would be at work ? — No, I cannot say. 2465. {Mr. Vaughaii.) You say that in the fifth form, or in a certain part of the school they are allowed to take the modern languages in ; do you mean both German and French, or only French ? — I mean any modern language. 2466. Does the consideration wliich attaches to modern languages amount to more tlian one-fifteenth of the whole examination ? — I thiuk it is said that mathematics is one-fifth, and that modern languages is one-third of that. 2467. Do you agree with that statement ? — Yes. 2468. With regard to the modern language prizes, how many competitors did you say there were for the chief prize ? — For French, I think about 60 ; but I am afraid I cannot say exactly. 2469. You said, I think, that there were somewhat fewer than 100 learning French in the whole school ? • — I do not know exactly. 2470. I think 100 would be the extreme number ? — Perhaps so. 2471. Were there many competing for those prizes who did not learn the modern languages at all at Eton ? — There may have been some. 2472. Does it not seem to follow from the com- parison of those numbers that there must have been a considerable number competing who did not learn French at Eton ? — No doubt. 2473. Do you know whether the prize has ever been won by a boy who has not been learning at Eton ? — I have no doubt that it has, but I cannot say. 2474. What explains the fact that a boy who is sufficiently devoted to the study of French to enable him to wjn a prize, should not think it worth his while to continue the study of that language at Eton ? — I cannot say. 2475. {Sir S. Northcote.) When you say that they are not learning at Eton, are you aware that the assistant masters teach their own boys French at the same time that they read with them ? — Yes, I know they do. 2476. Do you suppose that any of those boys may have received instruction in that way ? — I cannot tell. 2477. Comparatively speaking, have you any opi- nion as to the progress the boys make when they do learn German and French ? — No, I am not able to say. 2478. Are you not in a condition either to agree with or dissent from the statement which is made in the evidence that the German school goes on much more satisfactorily than the French ? — No, I am not. 2479. And, in fact, more satisfactorily than mathe- matics ? — No ; I am not able to say. 2480. {Lord Devon.) Where is that stated ? 2481. {Mr. I'^aicg'Aan.) In Mr. Browning's evidence. Dr. Goodford, are we to understand that the French master has no power of carrying on discipline in his school while he is instructing ? — None beyond re- porting. 2482. To the tutor ?— No ; to the Head Master. 2483. To the Head Master first ?— I have no doubt he would take whatever course he thought would bo most efl^ectual. 2484. Have you found it impossible to entrust anything like the discipline of the school to them ? — I never have tried it. 2485. You have never ventured to try it, perhaps ? — No. 2486. {I^ord Clarendon.) Do you know. Dr. Good- ford, how many boys learn German at Eton ? — I do not recollect at this moment. 2487. Is it taught by a German ? — Yes ; the Ger- man master is a German. 2488. {Lord Lyttelton.) It is stated here that from 20 to 2^ learn German, do you know that there have been cases of boys doing well for a Prince Consort's prize who have been for several years at school and have never attended the modern language teaching in the school ? — You must not understand that I said that ; all I say is, that there may be instances of boys having gained prizes who had not been taught modern languages at the school, I do not know that there are. 2489. {Lord Clarendon.) We come now to number 21 ; with respect to the boarding houses, you say that each is to be established with the authority of the Head Master, and that the accommodation must bo within certain limits ? — Yes. 2490. Does not the question of establishing these houses require some attention, because it seems to me, that the masters and dames, and extra masters, and boarding houses, and schools, and class-rooms have established themselves as fixtures at Eton. There seems to be a hereditai'y right in some cases to these boarding-houses? — Those persons purchase the ground, and build a house upon it ; wo cannot prevent that so long as that person is in charge of the house, and is not an improper person. 2491. But it seems to be carried to a still further extent. Can a man who comes into possession of sucli a house leave it to anybody he pleases, and sell the goodwill ? — No, he cannot do that. 2492. I'hat is not recognized in any way ? — No. 2493. But you must be aware that it exists ' — I do not think it does. In all cases which came before mo when I was Head Master, I alwa3's said when a person was giving up a house, and wrote to me respecting it, that there must be no sale of the good- will. I always said, you are not to state there are so many boys in the house, therefore it will be worth your while to pay so much for taking it. 2494. If the outgoing possessor wished to give up his house, and recommended to you a person whom he thought fit, and you saw no reason why he should not be appointed, would you not allow him to transfer the house to that other person ? — Yes. 2495. {Lord Devon.) Would you do that even to the exclusion of a master supposing that that other person was not an assistant master, but a person unconnected with the tuition of the school ? — That would depend upon whose the house was. If it was a master's house, I should wish it to go to a master. 2496. Have you any opinion upon the comparative advantage of having all the houses in the hands of the existing masters as compared with the present system, by which there are some which are not in the hands of persons engaged in tuition ? — No, I have not. 8497. It has not occurred to you whether there was an advantage on the one side or on the other ? — No ; but I have no doubt that the government of a man over boys, as a rule, is better than that of a woman. 2498. {Lord Clarendon.) Then I suppose you would get rid of the dames' houses in the course of time ? — Yes. 2499. It is not your intention to appoint fresh tenants to the dames' houses ? — I have no intention to do so. 2500. {Lord T^yttelton.) It is not that the Provost and Fellows have come to any such determination, that is only your own opinion ? — Yes. L 2 ETON. Reo. C. O. (Jwd/urJ 8 July 1803 84 PUBLIC SCHOOLS COMMISSION : — ^MINUTES OF KVIDENCE. 8 July 1862. ETON. 2501. You prefer to have no dames' houses ? — Yes. 2502. {Sir S. Northcote.) How lately has a new Rev. dame been ajipointed ? — I think the first year I came C. O. Gwdford. j^to ogige_ 2503. As Head Master ? — Yes. 2504. {Mr. Vaughan.) I understand you to say that you have made it known that no consideration in regard to goodwill is to pass between one dame and another ?— I cannot say that I have made it known, but when an application has been made to me that such and such a person wished to succeed to the house, I have said that I had no objection on condition that no money was paid for goodwill. 2505. But in a case of that kind, supposing that the profit of keeping one of these houses is considerable, is it possible to prevent some consideration from passing from hand to hand in that way ? — I do not know how I could positively prevent it. 2506. It is impossible for you to say that any hint you can give on the subject can prevent it ? — Of course I cannot prevent it. 2507. That, then, is an objection to having the dames' houses ? — Yes. 2508. Supposing that yourself, as Provost, or the Head Master, were to appoint to a boarding house, would not that of itself at once knock on the head the old system of good-will ? — Certainly. 2509. I mean, if you or some authority at Eton, whenever a boarding house became vacant, appointed a master to take it ? — Yes ; but there still might be some difficulty in the matter. 2510. Would it be possible, or at all probable, that any master having the appointment offered to him, and being able to take it, would consent to pay any consideration? — I am sure no tutor would do anything of the sort. 2511. Not even now ? — No. 2512. Is not that objection inherent in the system of dames' houses ? — I do not knovr that it is done at present. 2513. Why, I thought that was a matter which was conceded ? — Not at all. 2514. Is it not the natural consequence of there being large profits upon the board, unless you have some system, such as that I have mentioned, whereby the authorities would appoint the person to succeed on a house becoming vacant ; that such a practice would be carried on ? — I should not suppose it would be a necessary consequence. 2515. Do you not think that persons exercising a very lucrative trade of that description, would always be able to find other persons who would pay them a consideration for handing over that lucrative trade into their keeping ? — I do not know that such a system exists in the state in which you appear to think it does. 2516. But still you have so much reason to think it might exist as to induce you, in each particular case, to think it advisable to object to the possibility of its occurring ? — Yes. 2517. Would you object to such a thing taking place, or would you have made the suggestion that it was not to take place, unless you had some reason for supposing that as a practice it did exist ? — I had heard of it. 2518. In point of fact you would hardly have en- tered that sort of caveat, unless you had good reason to suppose that it existed ? — No. 2519. {Lord Lyttelton.) Have you any particular opinion, with regard to the question of boys of all ages having single rooms, or boys sleeping two or tliree in a room ; do you think there is an advantage one way or the other ? — For my own part, I would much rather have single rooms. 2520. {Lord Clarendon.) Except in the case of brothers ? — Of course. 2521. You say that "Boys in the upper part of the " school, who require books of reference, which they " do not themselves possess, do a good deal of their " work in the school library." Is that a ceneral practice ? — Yes. 2522. Is it because the school library is a good place to do the work in, or because they want the books of reference ? — Both 2523. Are they allowed to take the books out of the library ? — Yes ; but sometimes there is a par- ticular work going on, which renders it necessary that many boys should be referring to the same book at the same time ; in that case the books so required are made what are called Books of Reference, and are not allowed to be taken out of the library. For instance, if an essay is set upon a particular subject, the directors of the library say, that the books which relate to that subject shall not be taken out, but must be referred to in the library itself. 2524. That is for the general convenience of the school ? — Yes. Perhaps you will allow me to correct a verbal inaccuracy in my printed answer to question 21. I am made to state that the number of boys which can be accommodated in the different houses, varies from 50 to 66 ; it should be from 50 to 6, in- stead of from 50 to 66. 2525. {Lord Lyttelton.') You say that in some houses wine is charged as an extra and in others not ? — That is so. 2526. Is it ever added without increasing the bill to the parents ? — I never charged it myself, but I have known some men of my own standing who did, and ethers who did not. 2527. {Mr. Vaughan.) Do you tliink that the boys are over pampered with regard to their food, or that they have a greater variety than they ought to have at their time of life ? — I have no reason to think so. 2528. Nor that they have a greater quantity ? — I never heard any complaints of the matter. 2529. {Sir S. Northcote.) Is it a common thing for them to be ordered different beer ? — It was, and I dare say it is so still. 2530. Is that because the beer of many of the houses is of an inferior quality ? — I do not think that is so. 2531. Do you happen to know what the general rule is about getting beer, or where they generally get it from ; they do not get it all from the college brewery, do they ? — No. 2532. Do they get it from the town ? — Yes, from Windsor generaUy. 2533. Does not the boarding house keeper get it where he pleases ? — Yes. 2534. Then they do not follow any uniform system ? — Not generally. 2535. {Lord Clarendon.) You say in No. 24 : " The rate of charge in a classical master's house is " higher than in that of a mathematical master, but " it includes the payment for tuition as a private " pupil." I think you said. Dr. Goodford, tliat you did not know what number of oppidans in 1860 was paying 10 guineas a year for tuition ? — No. 2536. {Lord J^yttelton^ Can the number of boys now paying for private tuition be furnished without trouble ? — Yes. Boys in college would not have private tuition, except for mathematics. They would have the tuition in classics without its being paid for. 2537. {Lord Clarendon.) In number 25 you say : " I take the higher charge paid for board and lodging " in a tutor's house to be an indirect payment for " any service of any kind rendered to the school, but " for the additional time and care which it enables " the tutor to bestow upon the boy for the advantage " which the latter derives from coming more con- " stantly in contact with his tutor in his room, at " meal times, &c., and from the more domestic and " friendly relation which naturally thus springs up " between them." Do you think, Dr. Goodford, that the tutor is paid by the charge he makes for board and lodging for the time and care which he bestows upon the boy ? — Yes ; and which he could not so be- stow if the boy were not in his house. 2538. Then do you think that he is able to bestow such time and care upon 40 boys and upwards in his house ? — But he has not 40 boys in his house. 2539. Yes, many of the tiUors have ? — No. PUBLIC SCHOOLS COMMISSION:— MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 85 2540. (Sir S. Northcote.) No man has 40 boys in liis house ? — Certainly not. 2541. {Mr. Vaughan.) Taking it at an average, I think it is about 25 to a house ? — That may be the average. 2542. {Lord Lyttelton.) But some of them have very few ? — Yes ; 25 may be the a%erage, but most masters who can, have 30. 2543. {Lord Clarendon.) He gets about 750/. for superintending them ? — Perhaps so. 2544. {Lord Lyttelton.) Are the boys better fed in the tutors' houses than in the dames'? — I think that used to be the case. 2545. The difference of the cost in board and lodg- ing in a tutor's house .is compared with the dame's house is considerable, nearly 40/. a year, I believe ? — I take it that it makes about 30/. a year difference. 2546. {Lord Clarendon.) Your answer to question 26 is simply " No." That question is : " Is the resort '• by the boys to pastrycooks' shops, inns, or other " houses of entertainment, a recognized or a customary " method for obtaining either me.ils or any consider- " able portion of their food?" Whether it is re- cognized or not, I suppose it is a constant practice ? — Oh yes, they go there, but not to make part of their meals there. I do not suppose that any boy would go to a pastrycook's shop for that purpose. 2547. With respect to public-houses or houses of entertainment, are the boys allowed to go there? — No. 2548. They are not allowed to go to inns ? — No. 2549. {Lord Clarendon.) They are prohibited from going to inns or public-houses, are they not ? — Yes. 2550. {Lord Lyttelton.) Are not the oppidans in the habit of having dinners at inns ? — No, they have been given up. 2551. {Sir S. Northcote.) Do they not have the Irish dinner at an inn ? — No, that has been given up. 2552. Then are all those dinners, the Irish dinner, the oppidan dinner, and so forth, abolished ? — Yes ; What you call the oppidan's dinner was given up last year. 2553. {Lord Lyttelton.) Have not the boys some sort of clubs at which they meet ? — No, so far as I am aware. 2554. Not enough to be well known ? — No. 2555. {Lord Clarendo7i.) In No. 29 you say : " Seventeen of the classical, three of the mathematical " masters have boarding houses, and the drawing " master a small one ; there are no houses for the " remainder ; there are nine houses kept by persons " who take no part in the work of teaching." Do you like that description of boarding house. Do you think they do any good ? — 2556. {Lord Lyttelton.) They are the dames' houses, arc they not ? — Yes, and I believe them to be well conducted. 2557. Do you think that it leads to a more regular system of supervision, that the chief of the house is not engaged in tuition, that he can devote himself entirely to looking after his boarders, and is not obliged to be reading in order to keep up his own scholarship ? — No. 2558. {Mr. Vaughan.) As a matter of fact, are these boarding houses kept by persons who are con- stantly occupied, or by persons who have time at their disposal, who can devote themselves to the arrangements of the house ? — They ai-e generally kept by persons who have plenty of time at their disposal. 2559. {Lord Lyttelton.) How many cases are there of gentlemen not engaged in any way in tuition hav- ing boarding houses ? — I believe there are three. 2560. Mr. Vidal is one, Mr. Evans another ; who is the other ? — Mr. Samuel Evans ; he has half a dozen boys in a house opposite his father's house. 2561. {Lord Clareiidon.) In No. 30 you say: " The " authorities of the school have power to limit the " bounds within which boai'ding houses can be kept ; " none are kept beyond these bounds." Have those bounds been extended of late years ?— No, they have very little extended. 2562. Would there be .any difficulty in extending them ? — We could not get the land that would bo necessary for that purpose. 2563. Almost .all your s.alciible land for such pur- poses is occupied ? — Yes ; and if we required to ex- tend the accommodation, we should find it necessary to build on the playing field. 2564. In No. 32 you say that the total number of boys now at the school is 806 ; is not the number of boys now at school more than 806 ? — Do you mean at the present moment ? 2565. Yes ; how many have you now? — About 830, I think. 2566. {Lord Devon.) The total is put down in the table on page 32 at 829 ? — That return takes the number up to the election in the summer. 2567. {Lord Clarendon.) Have you stated to us the earliest age at which a boy is admitted into the school ? Do you allow a boy to enter at the age of 9 or 10 ? — Yes ; even as early as seven. 2568. {3lr. Vaughan.) I believe there are some in the school now who are hardly more th.an eight years old ? — Yes. 2569. ( Sir S. Northcote.) There is one mentioned, I think, of eight years five mouths ? — Yes ; I have known boys come at five years of age. 2570. That, I suppose, was when promotion in the College was by seniority ? — Yes. {Lord Clarendon.) We now come to paper No. 3. 2571. {Mr. Vaughan.) I wish to ask a question in reference to No. 6 in paper 3. Have you made the returns for the sixth form yourself ? — Yes. 2572. Did you make the returns of table C, and also the returns of table B. ? — Do you mean as to the age of the boys ? 2573. Yes ?— Yes, I did. 2574. May I ask you how long did it take you to make those returns, particularly those in table C. ? — Do you mean with regard to the work they were doing ? 2575. Yes ? — I am sure I do not recollect. 2576. Did it take you four hours ? — I cannot recol- lect at all. 2577. Do you know at what time this table was prepared by you ? — It was before I went away fi'om Eton for the holidays. 2578. You mean for the Christmas holidays ?— Yes, when I had all my books about me. 2579. I ask the question because eight months have now passed since this Commission asked for these papers, and they have only just been sent in for some parts of the school, and some of them are evea yet incomplete ? — I certainly sent in mine. 2580. Nevertheless, as I have stated in reference to the great bulk of the school, we have not received them till this examination commenced ; we are there- fore anxious to know what obstacles of any kind may have existed to the preparation of the returns ? — I cannot think that there have been any obstacles at all. 2581. They are not likely to assist much the prosecu- tion of the examination ; I therefore wish to know, as a matter of fact, how long it really would take to draw up one of these tables ? — With i-egard to the age of entrance of the boys I made them up in the school out of school hours, when school hours were over. It took me perhaps half an hour to prepare them. I made a rough draft, which I subsequently wrote out fairly out of school. ( The Secretary.) I have just received a letter from one assistant master (the only one) who has not, up to this moment, sent in any return at all to table B. His only explanation is, that at different times in the year he had diflerent divisions under his charge, but that is no reason why he should not have made the return asked for, which refers to the boys who were in his division at the time when the blank tables were sent. He now says that he has lost all his data, hut if we insist upon having this table, he will take what means he can to make one. L3 ETON. Rev. C. O. GooJfon!. 8 July 18C2. 86 PUBLIC SCHOOLS COSIMISSION : — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE.' ETON. ( The Provost.) There certainly was no difficulty in " drawing up the paper. It was the simplest thing in Itto- the world. a O. Goodford. 2582. {Mr. Vaughan.) With regard to the other jJTYses tables C. they have been sent in so extremely late, ' " ^ that in reference to your examination, and that of other members of the college, the delay must, I think, tend to exclude inquiry on some points ? — {The Provost to the Secretary.) You wrote to me some time in February about the tables not having been sent in, and a copy of what you required was sent to each of the masters. 2583. {Lord Clarendon.) The first letter, I think was sent in October ? — ( The Provost.) The first letter from Mr. Bernard, informing me that the returns liad not been sent in, was in February. I had no idea that they had not been sent. {3Ir. Vaughan ) So far as your table itself is concerned, it is the fullest and most instructive of all. ( The Secretary.) Your own tables. Dr. Goodford, came in very good time. 2584. {Lord Clarendon.) I think it is quite right that wliat has now occurred upon this matter should be recorded upon the evidence. We will now, if you please, proceed with the examination. You state in No. 9 tliat all boys rise by proficiency as far as the lower part of the upper division of the fifth form ; you then go on to say, — " In assigning marks the object " kept in view is to give to classics and mathematics " the same relative value which they bear to each other *' in the regular school work, e. g., supposing the clas- " sical school time to Ije 15 in a week, and the mathe- *' matical three, the marks for classical work would be " as near as possible 1500, and those for the mathe- " matical 300. No boy is compelled to pass in modern " languages, as they do not form any part of the obliga- " tory school teaching, but each boy under examination ^' in the fifth form is at liberty to offer himself to be " examined in modern languages, and to receive his " full marks for each language one-third of those " given for mathematics." By that I take it that the value you attach to modern languages as compared with classics is as one to 15. Is not that about the pleasure of value you attach to the study of modern languages ? — I did not think it right to give a higher number of marks for what I did not require a boy to learn. 2585. Then it comes precisely to what I said, that the value attached at Eton to modern languages, compared with classics, is as one to 15. There has not been any attempt, I believe, at Eton to teach the physical sciences, has there ? — No ; except by lecturers. 2586. Are there any lectures delivered ? — Yes. 2587. {3Ir. Vaughan.) How many promotions are -there from one form to another during the year at Eton ? — Do you mean of any one boy ? 2588. No, of any of the boys ? — They take place three times a year. 2589. How many times in the year do they take place on examination ? — That is upon examination. There are examinations each time, though they do not embrace every boy who moves. 2590. The examinations do not affect every boy who moves ? — No. For instance, what we call the remove is divided into the upper and lower remove ; •a boy passes into the lower remove by examination, but into the upper remove without examination. 2591. When the promotion of any boy takes place nfter examination, should I understand that the boy is not promoted in consequence of bis examination at all ? — Oh yes, he is. 2592. But is his promotion into the remove above dependent upon the mode in which he passes his exainination ? — Yes ; he may fail, and be kept down. 2593. Unless he failed signally in his examination, ■would he not be naturally removed into the upper form ? — Yes ; unless he failed in his examination. 2594. Is not a failure quite an exception ? — No doubt the majority of the boys pass. 2595. And they get their remove, as a matter of course, unless they do very ill ? — Yes. 2596. In what way does the particular merit of tho boys affect them in their remove ? — They take places. 2597. You mean that the examination affects tho place in the next form which a boy may assume when he gets into it ?^Yes. 2598. How often does that occur to each form in a year ; I mean that change of places in conse- quence of an examination ? — A hoy will be examined in the upper remove, fourth form, for a remove at Christmas. If he passes, he would go into the lower remove of the fifth form, but the succeeding remove in Juno he would pass without examination, and then at Christmas he would have to be examined again. 2599. On the whole, that boy would gain a remove once a year without examination ? — Yes. 2600. {Sir S. Northcote.) But, in addition to that, are there not collections every half in which the whole of the division is examined, and in which the boys take places ? — Yes ; that is specified here. 2601. {Mr. Vaughan.) The boys take places in their forms also ? — Yes ; but that is a mere honorary distinction, which does not appear on the list. If a boy obtains a first, second, or third class, marks are allowed to him for it for his next examination ; for a first class he would obtain 100 marks, and so on in proportion. 2602. ( Sir S. Northcote.) There is a certain pro-? portion of boys who fail ? — Yes. 2603. When a boy fails, does he pot remain at the top of the remove below him, so that, although he has failed upon the examination, he appears to be in the school as if he were at the head of his form ?— r Yes. 2604. Is not that somewhat objectionable ? — Perhaps it may be. 2605. Should not a line he drawn to show who has been kept down ? — I used to draw a line, but people remonstrated with me as to the degradation and pain which it occasioned, and in consequence I gave it up, 2606. {Mr. Vaughan.) Could you at all tell me, supposing that a boy were to go completely through tho school from one form to another, how many of those „ promotions or removes from one form to another he ■ would get accompanied by examinations, and liow ' many he would obtain as a matter of course, would it be one out of every three promotions ? — No ; half his promotions. 2607. Half his promotions would be by exami- nations ? — Yes. 2608. But those promotions, unless he had really ^ done very ill, would only have the effect of determi- ■ ning his place in the next form ? — His place relatively to other boj's. 2609. His promotion would not be aflfected unless he had done very ill ? — No. 2610. {Mr. Thompson.) Would it be possible for a boy who had distinguished himself very highly to ' get two removes at once ? — Yes ; that is often done ; a boy gets a double remove at once. 2611. {Mr. Vaughan.) Is it the effect of that that he leaps over the form where all his companions would remain .' — Yes. 2612. Whereabout in the next remove above that does he obtain his place ? — He obtains it as high as he can. 2613. Does it depend upon the number of marks he gets ? — He is examined with the boys in that re- move. Supposing that an examination is going on for an upper remove, a boy may be recommended from a lower remove for a double remove ; that boy then goes in to try his chance with the form above him, and he gets as good a place as he can. It is necessary, before he can obtain a double remove, that he should beat tworthirds of those in the remove above him. 2614. That he should beat two-thirds of it ? — Yes; and he very seldom fails. 2615. {Mr. Thompson.) Does that apply to the sixth form also ? — No. rUBLIC SCHOOLS COMMISSION :— MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 87 2616. IIow is that obtained? — Simply by rotation. 2617. By rotation from the upper fifth ? — Yes. 2618. Merely by seniority ? — Yes. 2619. Is that fair ? — After a boy has once got into the lower part of the upper division, there is no examination for seats. 2620. {Sir S. JVorlhcofe.) The oppidan examination has ceased ? — Yes. 2621. How is that in the college ? — There is an examination every year. 2622. {Mr. Thompson.) I think there is some classification of the boj's according to the merit they show in competing for a Newcastle scholai-ship ? — Yes. 2623. Do not the boys in the fifth form in that competition frequently beat boys in the sixth form ? — Yes. 2624. That is the case ?— Yes. 2625. Then a boy may go to King's without getting into the sixth form at all ? — No. 2626. When a boy is going by his examination from the middle into the upper division, is it neces- sary that he should get 100 marks more than the boy above him in order to take a place. What I mean is this, that if one boy gets 500 marks, and the boy below him only 560, the one who gets 560 would not pass the one who gets 500 ? — No. 2627. He must get 600 to enable him to pass ? — Yes. 2628. {Lord Lyttelton.') How far does the double remove system extend ? — The last double remove would be from the lower part of the middle division into the upper division. 2629. {Mr. Thompson.) Is it possible for the first colleger of the year in point of merit to fail at King's ? — That is hardly possible now, but it was possible once. 2630. Is it possible to have another preferred above him ? — He may lose his place. 2631. Must the first boy by merit go to King's ? — Yes ; at present the Provost of King's says, I have three scholarships for which Eton boys may contend. 2632. What is the age ? — Eighteen years. 2633. Is there any regulation as to their position in the school ? — Boys at 17 and 18 years of age stand. 2634. And they must be in the sixth form ? — Not necessarily, there may not be enough places. 2635. Does the number in the sixth form ever vary ?— Very little. 2636. It consists of 20 only ? — Yes. 2637. Ten collegers and 10 oppidans ? — Yes. 2638. {Lord Lyttelton.) They are superannuated on their 19th birthday ? — Yes. 2639. There will be a more regular number of vacancies hereafter ? — They hope to give us four . every year in future. 2640. {Lord Clarendon.) You say in answer to 9, No. 10 : — " The number of classical masters is at " present 17 for the upper school (during the latter " part of summer school time, when there have been " rather more boys in the upper school, temporary " assistance has been employed during the last two " years), in the lower school five." That arrangement with regard to temporary assistance is new, is it not ? — We have only had it within the last few years. 2641. What sort of temporary assistance do you refer to, classical, I suppose ? — Yes. The last gentle- man I employed is the gentleman who has lately succeeded to the office of assistant master. The fact is, that in the month of June a change takes place in the school, by which upon some occasions some 20 or 25 boys come from the lower school into the upper, and to prevent any disturbance of our arrangements, it is necessary to get extra assistance until the elec- tion takes place. A good many boys go away at the election, and the number falls back to what it has been ordinarily. 2642. Then in point of fact you require an extra master for a short period ? — Yes. 2643. Was he an Eton man ? — Yes. 8 July 1SC2 2644. {Lord Lyttelton.) You go on to s.ay :— "His- XJTON. " tory and geography are taught in the school to boys " below the fifth foim ;" do you mean modern or -'?''''• ancient history and geography? — I mean both com- C.O.Gwiifwd. bined ; they are taught by the use of comparative maps. 2645. But only to boys below the fifth form ? — Only to boys below the fifth form. 2646. Do you find when they get higher up in the school that they forget what they have been taught ? — I think they do forget it. I do not think that department is as efficient as it ought to be. I should very much like to be able to put on an extra school time for it. 2647. The proportion of classical masters to the number of boys in the lower school is nearly double to what it is in the upper ? — It is larger. 2648. It is five in the lower school ? — ^Yes. 2649. One for 20 ? — Yes ; but the reason is they are all doing different lessons. 2650. Do not little boys require greater attention ? — Yes, the same thing tells in both ways. 2651 {Mr. Vaughan.) With whom does it rest to determine what portion of history shall bo set for the boys to learn ? — It rests with the master of the division. 2652. The Head Master is not cognizant of that, is he ? — No ; but a report is sent to him in which what has been set is stated. 2653. Is no scheme framed by the Head Master as to what portion of history the boys shall be learning in all the several forms ? — No. 2654. Do you know the amount that is set in eace half-year in that way ? — I could not tell. 2655. {Lord Lyttelton.) With whom is the choice of subjects ? — The choice of subjects rests with the master of the division. 2656. {Mr. Thompson.) Are there any special books of history ? — No. 2657. {Mr. Vaughan.) Do you as a matter of fact know what books are used, or does that depend upon the master of the form ? — It depends upon the master of the form. 2658. {Sir S. Northcote.) It is a common instance I think, to give a portion of Hume, say from the Re- storation to the Revolution ; that would be a fair average description of the work ? — Yes. 2659. {Mr. Thompso?i.) Are essays given on his- torical subjects ? — In the two first divisions, but not below. 2660. {Lord Devon.) I see Ilallam, and also other authors are used ? — That is in the first and second division. 2661. You mean the upper fifth ? — Yes, part of it. 2662. {Lord Clarendon.) You say, in answer to question 11, " Each boy pays for learning French a " fee of 10 guineas per annum, for German, 12 " guineas, for mathematics, four guineas. I do not " imagine the progress in those studies can be so " great as that in Greek and Latin, because so much " less time is given to them, but I have no reason to " suppose that the progress is not proportionate to " the time employed ;" that is to say, we will take the 100 boys who learn French, and we find that they know fifteen times more Greek and Latin than they know French, I presume you judge according to the marks that are given ? — Yes ; a diligent boy in classics would make more progress than a diligent boy in modern languages. 2663. {Mr. Vaughan.) Are there no particular hours during which a boy is supposed at school to be learning French ? — He is engaged in French three times a week ; he takes three lessons a week. 2664. {Lord Clarendon.) Thei'e is a remark to which I should like to call your attention, which has been made by Sir John Coleridge. He says, " la " my daj's honours were sparingly bestowed. The " Bishop of Lichfield, whom we justly reckoned as " first of his day, was, I think, sent up but four times " during the whole of his stay in the fifth form, " which could have been scarcely less than four or L 4 88 PUBLIC SCnOOLS C05UIISSI0N :— MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ETOX. liev. C. O. Goudford. u^juru. ., ^^^^ 8 July 1862. five years. Now the Eton lists show boys with more than 20 marks to thoir names. I think, too, the number of prizes is excessive, and tends to distract from the reguhar work of tlie school." I believe that that system of prizes and honorary dis- tinctions has been increased of late years ? — The case mentioned by Sir John Coleridge was an exception. It would be all well and good if you could show that a boy who had that number of distinctions did not keep up the promise he had given in his subsequent career in the university. That I admit would be a fair subject of criticism, but it so happens that this boy became very distinguished indeed at the uni- versity. 2665. Wliat I want to know from you is whether the system of prizes and honorary distinctions has ■been increased of late years ; do you think that tliat has been the case ? — That would depend upon what you would please to call late years. It has not been increased within my mastership, certainly. 2666. It has not been increased in your master- ship ? — No. 2667. Boys are not more easily " sent up for good" than they used to be ? — No. 2G6S. {Lord Lytteltoji.) They are " sent up " much oftener ? — Not within my mastership. 2669. But during the last 20 years ? — I think not. 2670. {Mr. Vaughan.) There is besides the exami- nations by the Head Master an examination in divi- sions ? — Yes. 2671. Is that every half-year ? — No, three times a year, but at the end of each school time. 2672. Do you agree from the experience you have had in the matter in the opinion which has been expressed by a gentleman who has given evidence that the boys do not take an interest in these exami- nations ? — I should have thought they did ; they do in my ovi'n division, 2673. The statement is that examinations seldom occur in which they take an interest ? — They take more interest in the examinations in which they h.ave prizes to get than in the others. If a boy gets first- class, he gets so many marks towards his next exami- pation, but he does not get the place for it. 2674. Do you not think that it is desirable that these examinations for promotions and places should occur more frequently ? — I think once a year is quite often enough. 2675. But how is that so if it is true that they would have the effect of making the boya take more interest in them ? — If they came oftener I think that little interest would be felt in them. 2676. Do you think that the interest is partly on account of the rarity of their occurrence ? — Yes. 2677. Do you think it would be possible to demand of the Head Master's time that he should examine them oftener ? — It is quite impossible that he could do so. 2678. And both these circumstances together would lead you to the conclusion that more frequent exami- nations for places and promotion are not advisable ? : — I should not aesire to see them take place more frequently. 2679. {Lord Devon.') You say in answer to quesr tion 13, that the Tomline prize of 30/. in books for mathematics is open to the whole school. Can you tell us what number of candidates generally compete for that prize ? — About 30, I think. 2680. {Sir S. Northcote.) I think there is a second prize for mathematics which they call the lower-boy Tomline ? — Yes. 2681. Are all the essays mentioned here always competed for, for instance, the essay founded by Mr. Eichards, is that regularly competed for ?— Yes. 2682. Is there any limitation as to subject ? — There is no limitation at all. 2683. Is it appointed by the Head Master ? — Yes. 2684. Is the prize for the best piece of prose, and one for the best copy of verses done during the school time in the first division awarded ? — Yes. 2685. When was that founded ? — My predecessor established it. 2686. Then with regard to the money gift to the superannuated King's scholars which was left by Mr. Richards, is that always given ? — It is not in- variably given ; sometimes there is no boy who re- quires it. 2687. {T^ord Clarendon.) Are these prizes which are always given without examination ? — Yes. 2688. Is it given for merit and good conduct, or good scholarship ?— It is given for both. I have just given one to a boy who was captain of his year, and who is going to a post mastership at Merton, 2689. That sum, I think, is rather small ? — No ; it is worth 150/. a year. 2690. What, this gift of Mr, Eichards worth 150/. a year ? — Oh, no, I meant the post mastership at Merton, which, as I have said, was given to the captain of his year. Unfortunately he had very ill health, and he was unable from that circumstance to stand the election trial. If he had gone in for a competitive examination it would have killed him. He went, therefore, to be examined with other candi? dates for a post mastership, which he was to have provided he passed the examination. There was, however, no real competition ; he was pot competing with others. 2691. How much is Mr. Eichards' gift ?— 50/. ; it may either be given in one sum or divided into two. 2692. Is it generally given to one person ? — Last year no one was superannuated, and in consequence it stood over. I think if you will look back to the Bursars' account you will find the sum 150/. in hand, 2693. {Lord Devon.) Has Eton any connexion spe» cially with Merton in any way ? — One of the Provosts of Eton was Warden of Merton, 2694. {Lord Clarendon.) The foundation has no connexion with it ? — No, except this post mastership. There is a post mastership in the gift of the Provost at King's, and one in the gift of the Provost at Eton, 2695. What are the subjects of tlie two holiday task prizes ? — They are for verses, 2696. Latin verses ? — Latin or Greek, as the Head Master chooses to set. 2697. Are they done in vacation ? — Yes, 2698. Which vacation ? — Christmas and Easter. 2699. Do the oppidans ever gain these prizes 'i^-r- They are not eligible to compete for them. 2700. They cannot compete for these composition prizes ? -They cannot compete for the holiday task prizes ; they were left for collegers only, 2701. With regard to the other prizes, do the op- pidans often succeed in obtaining them ? — ^Certainly not so often as the collegers, 2702. But do they sometimes succeed in gaining them ? — Sometimes thpy do, 2703. {Mr. Vaughan.) There appears to be only one scholarship open to the whole school ; is not that rather a small number of scholarships to have open for the whole school ? — Do you allude to the New- castle scholarship ? 2704. Yes ? — That is the only one open. 2705. Do you not think that that is a small number for so large a school as Eton ? — Yes. 2706. No other has ever been founded ?-^No ; the pest have been left for the boys on the foundation. 2707. There are scholarships mentioned here as several scholarships open to King's College scholars given for merit and without examination, how is merit ascertained in these cases ? — When I was Head Master the Provost used to apply to me to recommend. 2708. Are they given to youths while still at Eton ? — No, upon leaving Eton for King's. 2709. What is the yalue of them, and what is the number ? — You will see if you turn to page 23, 2710. What denomination do they pass under ; in page 23 I see Mr. Reynolds' name mentioned ? — They are his. 2711. Tliere is a scholarship of Mr, Bryant's also ? — Yes. PUBLIC SCHOOLS COMMISSION; — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 89 2712. What is the value of :Mr. Keynolds' ?— f 48 each. 2713. And what is the value of Mr. Brjaut's? — £36 17 s. 2714. And does the same auswer apply to Dr. Ber- riuian's ? — Yes, that is a scliolarsliip also. 2715. And it is given in the same way ? — Yes. 2716. In point of fact are all these given in the same way ? — Yes. 2717. They are given wilhout examination ? — Yes. 2718. By the persons mentioned here ? — Yes. 2719. According to the Head Master's idea of merit ? — Yes. 2720. They are given to boys upon leaving Eton ? — Yes. 2721. Is that a more satisfactory mode of adjudica- tion than any other you can thinii of? — We give it to a boy who has passed his exar.iinalious well, and who stands high in the school. 2722. i merely wisli to ask your opinion ; 1 pre- sume that after you have seen a l)oy go through the school, 3ron would know very well what he was capa- ble of ?— Yes. 2723. Is it left to the Head Master's discretion, as he would be the only person well acquainted with the capabilities of the bo}-. The Provost of King's, the Fellows of Eton, or the Vice-Provost of Eton would be .scarcely able to form any opinion of the merits of the boy with reference to a question of this sort ? — The Vice-Provost would know, after having examined him for King's. 2724. He and the Head Master would be the only jiersons who would know. Is it the fact, liieu, that the Head Master and the Vice-Pro\ost pronounce an opinion upon the merit of tho boys ? — Yes, and the Provost. 272-j. Who dei ermines the Provost's opinion ? — He determines it for himself. Tlie late Provost used to ask me when I was Head Master. 2726. Is it the judgment of the Head Master practically, then, upon which these prizes are as- signed ? — I think not. Some are iu the gift of the Provost absolutely ; one or two of them are in the gift of the Head Master, and some of them are in tlie gilt of the Provost, the Head Master, and the Vicc-Piovost. 2727. {Lord Devon.) Would you have any difti- culty in supplying us with this infornuition in a tabu- lar form, if we give you the columns under each head of which tho intbrmation should be given. I mean, can you supply us with a list of all the exhibitions, scholarships, and prizes which belong to Etou, speci- fying the value of each, whether they are given with or without examination, and who is the party to decide as to the fitness of the competitors. This statement upon page 23 does not give us that ? — (.1/r. ]'augliati.) And 3'ou might add the number of years for which they are tenable ? — All that infor- mation is pul>lished in a little book called tlie Eton Calendar. 2728. {Lord Devon.) We should be glad if you would supply us with it yourself ? — You shall have it if you wish.* 2729. {Mr. Vaucfhan.) Do you know how nianj- of these prizes are given awaj' annually ? — I cannot tell. 2730. Can you say about how many ? — Perhaps four or five. 2731. Not four or five annually ? — Xo ; two or three, to the best of ray recollection. I do not think any were given away last year at all. I do not think there were any to give. 2732. {Lord Lyttelton.) Are all the scholarship prizes given upon examinations, except those which are enumerated in this list ? — I think so. 2733. Are some of them limited more or less, but still given upon limitation ? — Yes, all of them are limited more or less. 2734. {Mr. J'aiif/han.) Some of them are given to the scholar" at King's College, Cambridge ? — Yes, and some to the superannuated scholars. * A list was furnished by tlie Provost, Answers to the Printed Questions. 1. and is appended to his 273o. What is a superannuated scholar ? — One who has remained at Eton until he was 19, but for whom a vacancy has occurred at King's. 2736. Then they have to meet that disajipoint- ment ? — Yes. 2737. {Lord CI a re » don.) You .^ay, in answer to question Xo. 14. that it is compulsory on every boy to have a tutor. What is the average number of pupils a private tutor has. About how many boys has the same tutor ? — As his pupils ? 2738. Yes ?— 2739. {Sir S. JS'ort/icote.) I think 37 is the ave- rage ? — 'No, 40 is the average. 2740. You say, iu answer to question 16, that tho present average number of pupils is 37 ? — Yes, but the number has been limited for some years to 40. 2741. {Lord Clarendon.) In answer to Xo. 14 you give a detailed account of what the duties of a tutor are towards his pupils ; do you think there lu'e any difficullies in the way of a tutor standing in loco parentis to 40 boys, besides attending to his other duties ? — I do not think so. 2742. {Lord Lyttelton.) With regard to the num- ber of private ])U])ils a tutor may have, I see the first assistant has 35 l)oys in his own house : so that the restriction metuis that he shall not have more than five boj-s in any dame's house ? — He is not limited to 40. 2743. I thought he could only have 35 in his own house and fi^•e in a dame's house ? — I rather think, in the particular case you mention, that three of the boys are the tutor's own children. 2744. Is the new regulation binding upou all to whom it applies ? — Yes. 2745. I understood you to say that, in case of any tutor attempting to raise his charges, the Provost would interfere ? — If made aware of it, he would interfere, most certainly. 2746. But you added that you would not inter- fere iu case of his lowering his charges ? — Xo. 2747. Do not you think tliat there would lie an advantage in having a general rule by which all the charges should be uniform, or nearly uniform ? — Xo doubt there would be great advantage in that. 2748. Would if not be objectionable to find one master attmupting to undersell another ? — I do not think it at all likely that such a thing would ever occur. 2749. Do you think it is impossible ? — Quite im- possible, I should say. 2750. But if a master was to attempt to do it much cheaper, you say you would not interfere to prevent him ? — Upon reconsidering the matter, I do not say tlnit I would not ; but the case never occurred to me as likely to arise. 2751. With regard to the private tutor system, it is divided, you say, into two branches, the moral con- trol of the boys and acquaintance with them, and the direction of their studies ; has it ever occurred to yon that the intei'ference of the tutor with the boy in his school work was carried further than was de- sirable at Eton. I mean the attention the tutor gives to his pupil, in respect to the work he has to do iu school ; is not that too great ? — It never struck me as being so. 2752. Do you think it necessary that they should regularly construe all the lessons, and look over the exercises before the boys go into school ? — I do not think, with regard to the upper boyr., that the con- struing of all their lessons is necessarj'. I think they should come to the tutor and have difficulties pointed out to them, and be questioned upon them, in order that those difficulties might be solved for them. I would not require them to go through the whole lesson. 2753. But they do it ?— X'ot .all. 2754. They all go to the construing, do uot they ? — Not the higher boys. 2755. {Sir S. JSiorthtote.) They vary iu practice very much ; some do, and some do uot. Is not that so ? — Yes, we vary very much. il ETON. Rev. C. O.Goodford. 8 July 18fi2. 90 PUDLIC SCHOOLS COMMISSION:— MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. ETON. Rev. C. O.Goodford. 8 July 1862. 27.56. (Lord Lijtlclton.) Do you not think there should be some more time employed by the tutor in directing the studies of the boy for the Newcastle scholarship ; would it not bo as well in those cases to have less of his time appropriated to the prepara- tion of his school work ? — I think that the tutors do direct their attention to the boys for the Newcastle scholarship at present. 2757. Do you think that the force of the boy's mind in preparing the work for himself is at all abated by the amount of assistance he gets before going into school ? — I do not think so. 2758. {Mr. Tliompson.) Besides these 40 pupils, a master has an unlimited number of private pupils, has he not ? — Oh, no ; they are part and parcel of the same. 2759. {Mr. Vavghan.) Do you think that, as the master has to perform both duties, there is no temp- tation for him to slur over the class work and devote himself to the tutor work ? — No, because his reputa- tion depends upon the one as well as upon the other. 2760. Would not the fact that he is receiving com- paratively low payment from class work, tend to divert his attention ? — I think not. 2761. Has it not been an alteration made of late years, that boys in the upper part of the school should not prepare their lessons with the tutor ? — Yes. 2762. That has been a change made within some few years past ? — Yes. 2763. What is the reason that the change was made ? — I suppose they did not find it necessary to have them. 2764. I think we heard that there had not been quite a consistent system kept up by all the tutors in that respect ? — No ; some have them, and some do not. 2765. Do you think that, in the case of those who have dropped the practice, the omission has at all operated to deteriorate the scholarship of the upper part of the school ? — No, I think not. 2766. Should you concur with an opinion which has been expressed that in the two iirst divisions the experiment of omitting it has been tried, and has not succeeded? — I think it better that the boys should go to their tutors. 2767. You think that the old system was best? — Yes ; I think that difficulties might be pointed out in it. 2768. Is it or is it not the case that in some of the forms the tutors construe the lessons off to the boys ? — I never heard of it. 2769. Do some of the boys go through their lessons with their tutors twice ? — I cannot say ; I cannot undertake to say what goes on in another person's room. 2770. While the lesson is being construed by the boys themselves, does the tutor put up any boy at hap-hazard, or does he find it better to select some of the more efficient boys to construe ? — I should say he did. 2771. Would it not delay the whole class to have a less advanced boy blundering through it ? — Of course it would. 2772. Would not that tend to induce the tutors to call up the most proficient ? — No ; I think he would take every boy in turn : he would do so if he wished to ascertain if they had learnt it. 2773. Is it the object of the practice so much to ascertain if the boys have learnt the lesson as to send the boys in a proper condition to the form ? — I take it that the tutor would have both objects. 2774. With some tutors, might not the one object be borne in mind, and with others the other? — I should think they would keep V)oth in mind. 2775. You think that both would operate equally? — Yes. 2776. Aud that one would not trench on the other? •^I should think not. 2777. {Sir S. Northcote.) 'Would not the tutor set the boy a punishment if he could not do his lesson properly ? — Yes. 2778. Is not that constantly done ? — Yes. 2779. {Lord Clarendon.) In answer to No. 16 you say the numbers have been limited for some few years to 40 boys ; is that rule, which I believe was made by you, generallj' recognized and abided by ? — Yes, it has been abided by by all upon whom it has been imposed. 2780. You mean liy all who had not 40 boys at the time it was imposed ? — I mean by all who have come since it was imposed. 2781. How many do you consider are under it,. and how many not ? — 2782. {Lord Lyttelton.) How many of the 23 masters ? — I forget exactly at this moment. 2783. Is it about one-half? — Perhaps it is about one half. 2784. {Lord Clarendon.) So that with regard to a master who had had 40 boys in his house, your rule would not apply to him, and he might have 50 or 60 if he could get them ? — No man in the upper school has 60, 50, or 40 boys in his house. 2785. Does it apply to those who were assistant masters at the time you made the rule ? — No. 2786. {Lord Lyttelton.) Whom did j'ou mean it to apply to? — To those who came after the rule was made. 2787. {LAird Clarendon.) Is it anj'body's business to see that that rule is not infringed ? — If the Head Master finds it infringed, I suppose he would inter- fere. I should certainly interfere if I found it in- fringed. 2788. You say if you found it infringed ; but do you not require a report from the assistant masters as to the number in their houses ? — No. 2789. Did you not know by a report how many each master had ? — No. 2790. You say in answer to question 18 that boys preparing for the military profession are exempted from two repetition lessons in a week ? — Yes, pro- vided they are goiug directly from school for exami- nation. 2791. Without any intermediate course ? — Yes. 2792. {Lord Lyttelton.) Can you say whether any advantage is taken of this arrangement ? — It is not necessary, except in the case of a very dull boy. 2793. {I^ord Clarendon.) In general, do you think that a boy could go direct from Eton, and pass a military examination ? — Yes, a boy of ordinary abili- ties, certainly. The boys who go for commissions get them constantly. 2794. Without any previous intermediate instruc- tion ? — Yes. 2795. {Mr. Thompson.) Is any instruction in mathe- matics required ? — Very little. The boy who was the last captain of our drill was merely a diligent boy in school work, but he went up, and got his commission directly. 2796. {A Commissioner.) A gentleman wrote to me a short time ago to say that an open cadetship given by Mr. Romaiue was given to an Eton boy, and when he presented himself, prior to being received, he was plucked, being found ignorant of the smallest amount of geography ; have you heard of that case ? — I re- collect it very well. 2797. I suppose that is about the same sort of exa- mination a boy would have to undergo for a commis- sion ? — It was a much younger boy, and a boy who did not know till about a fortnight before that he was going up at all. 2798. You say in answer to question 19 : "I con- " sider the instruction given in the ordinai-y course " of school work, and by the tutor, quite sufhcient to " prepare a boy of abilities for a successful career at " the universities, and, with the addition of one modern " language, for the military service. I am not suffi- " ciently acquainted with the nature of the examina- " tion for the civil or East India services to enable " me to give a decided opinion upon this point, but " we do not profess to prepare boys for those exami- " nations, nor should I consider that an improvement " of the ordinary teaching which materially altered it " with this view " ? — Yes. PUBLIC SCHOOLS COILMISSION : — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 91 2799. {Lord I.ytteUon.') Tliat incliulcs thp East luilia cdiiipcntivf exiiniiiintion ; liavo you known nny bovs 2" "P from Eton, and succeed without anythin<; iiiterraediato in those competitive examinations ? — I do notrecoUect. 2800. Do you conceive tliat tlie jrcneial instruction of a puhlie scliool would hardly quality them without some special teaching ai'ferwards ? — I think not. 2801. In these lists of examinations for the Army and for India iu which the places where the candi- dates have been educated are mentioned we seldom see the names of Eton boys appear ? — No, I think not. 2802. In answer to question 21 you say: "The " school has a very good library, to which the sixth " and upper middle divisions of the fifth form have " access, on payment of 4«. per school time;" do you state the total amount of payment received for it ? They pay 4»-. each school time ; that would be 12«. a year ? — Yes. 2803. The sixth form and upper and middle divisions pay i- -Yes 2804. Would not that be as many as 200 boys ? — Yes, I should think it would. 2805. Then it would be rather more than 100/. a year ? — Yes. 2806. How is that applied ? — It is a)>plied in the purchase of books, and for the payment of a librarian ; .some of the masters also subscribe. I subscribe myself. 2807. Is the whole expended that you get ? — Yes. 2808. {Mr. Thompson.) What is" the number of books ? — I do not know. . 2809. {Lord fyj/ftel/on.) Do they often ajjply for books below the forms here mentioned ? — I do not know. 2810. In answer to question 22, yo\i speak about music and drawing, the drawing master has built a room and ari'anged a school of art, has he not ? — Yes. 2811. {A Conimissio/ier.) Has he been long at Eton ? — Yes, he has been there for some time. 2812. Who is he ? — Mr. Evans ; — his father was there before him. 2813. {Sir S. Northcote.) Was it not the case that Mr. Stephen Hawticy's school was built partly with the view of the study of music being carried on there ? — I am not aware. 2814. Are you aware that Mr. Haw-trey has ever made any representation in order to get music regularly introduced and taugiit there ? — I am not aware. 2815. {jSlr. Vaughan.) It is said in your answer that many boys prosecute the study of music, you say there is no jirovisiou made for the .systematic instruc- tion in music, though many boys prosecute the study of it, do they prosecute the study with effect ? — Yes. 2816. How do they prosecute the study ? — They learn from any master they choose. 2817. You mean any master at Windsor ? — I believe they go principally to Dr. Elvey the organist of St. George's. 2818. Is it vocal music alone that they learn ? — I think it is instrumental. 2819. Does he teach it to them fundamentally ? — I do not know. 2820. Does he teach the principles of music as well as an acquaintance with the mstrumeut ? — I do not know. 2821. There is an opinion expressed here in another part of the evidence upon which I .should like to ask you a question in order to ascertain if you concur in it. It is contained in the evidence of Mr. Johnson. He says, " I think that a great deal might be done for " music if the college supplied a professor and build- " iug set apart for instrumental as well as vocal " practice, and in so far as music is connected with " religious services, this would, I believe, be a legiti- " mate fulfilment of the founder's wishes." Do you concur in that opinion, that it would be a legitimate fulfilment of the founder's intention, and that a good deal might be done for vocal and instrumental music if ii professor were supplied and a proper building set apart for it ? — I do not see an}- objection to it. 2822. Do you consider that the class of boys which compose the Eton boys, would require that as a proper addition to tiieir education ? — I should not consider it a necessary addition to tiieir education. 2823. Should )'ou deem it a proper addition to their education considering the high class of boys they are ? — I can really see no olyection to it. 2824. Do von think that any greater facilities could be additionally given for it than now exist ? — I can- not sa\- ; I do not see my way clearly for giving more facilities at present. 2825. You tell us that there are only 14 boys learning drawing at the present time ? — That is the drawing master's account to me. 2826. Does not that occur to you as an extremely small proportion out of 800 boys ? — The average number of pupils is 35. 2827. Is that not a small number out of 800 boys ? — I do not know that it is. 2828. I think that comparatively small schools have had a much larger number than that. At Harrow there are 70 where there are only 450 boys, do you know anything that can account for the disproportion considering the class of boys by whom an elegant ac- comiilishment of that sort would be likely to be valued ? — I cannot account for it. I think the master is both able and successful as a teacher. 2829. {Lord Clarendon.) Question 23 is " State " what means are adopted to i)i-omote the religious " and moral training of the boys, and to enforce good ." order and good conduct by the presence and personal " influence of the masters or tutors, by the help ot " monitors or prefects, or the co-operation in any " other way of the boys themselves by rewards and " punishments or otherwise." You state in answer to that question, " Constant intercourse between the " tutor and jnipil, which I have mentioned above, the " dail}- morning and evening prayer in all the tutors' '• and many of the ilames' houses," are among the means adopted at Eton to promote those ends. You say " in many of the dames' houses," do you not have morning and evening prayer in all of them ? — No, not in all of them. 2830. Do you think that that secures a sufficiently religious training? — I should prefer their having prayers in evei'y house. 2831. What procures exemption for any of the dames' houses ? — It rests w-ith the person who holds the house. 2832. And if she does not like prayers you do not have them ? — No, I suppose not. 2833. {Lord L^yttelton.) Do you mean that if she does not choose to have morning and evening prayer, she may omit them ? — There is no provision to compel their being read, unless the person who keeps the house chooses to read them. 2834. Does not the tutor come in and read them ? — No, only on the Sunday. 2835. {L^ord Clarendon.) If the assistant masters were required to lend any assistance, or to super- intend the dames' houses, or to devote any attention to them the Head Master thought necessary, would it not be a legitimate employment of their time to take care that prayers were read in a dame"s house ? — Yes, I thiuk so. 2836. Particularly if it happened to be under the superintendence of the dame ? — Yes. 2837. Prayers are read in the other houses ? — Yes. 2838. Do you think that this is what you could call religious training in the proper sense of the word, merely having prayers. Is any pains taken bj' the assistant masters to impress religious truths upon the boys ? — I have no doubt that they do make that part of their duty. 2839. On what occasions ? — When they are with them every Sunday. I do not believe a boy is taken every day and instructed in matters of religion. M2 ETON. Rev. CO. Good/or J. 8 July 1862. 92 PUBLIC SCHOOLS COMMISSION :— MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. ETON. Jiev. C. O.Goodford 8 July 18Bi. 28-10. Do the tutors cndoavour to impress the boys with :* sense of moral responsibility ? — I thiuk they do. 2S41. Is there a groat difference where the boys are in a man's house and where they are in a dame's liouse ? — Yes ; the masters see much more of them in tlieir own rooms. 2842. (Mr. Vatighati.) Has there been a gre.it moral improvement in the tone of the boys at Eton during the last 20 years ? — I think there has been a very decided improvement. 2843. Has there been, concurrently Avith tliat im- provement, a greater degree of intimacy between the tutor and tlie pupil ? — Yes. 2844. Do you concur with another gentleman, whose evidence is contained in this book, who has attributed that to the improvement of a confidential infercoui-se between the tutor and pupil ? — Yes, I think it was a most valuable thing. 2845. Do you think tliat the discipline of tlie school and the boys is in quite a satisfactory state at the present time ? — Yes, as far as I know. 2846. Do you think that that arises from the in- fluence of the tutors upon the boys generally ? — I have no doubt that that has a great deal to do with it. 2847. You think that the influence upon individual boys by individual tutors has produced tliat state of things ? — Yes. 2848. {Lord Clarendon.) The sixth form have authority to set punishments, but not to administer per.sonal chastisement, is that not so ? — Yes. 2849. What punishments are they authorized to imjjose, and for what .sort of oflenccs ? — Tiiey give lessons to be written out. 2850. (Lord Li/ftelton.) Do they ever use the power ? — Yes, in college, certainly. 2851. {Lord Clarendon.) What sort of oflences are cognizable hj the sixth form ? — In the college it would be coming late into Hall, or any infraction of discipHne, or anything of that sort : being late at pr.iyers, for instance. 2852. Not for anything connected with tlie school work ? — No. 2853. Nor for school discipline further than being late at ajipointed hours ? — No. 2854. Do they take cognizance of anything now that occurs out of school ? — I tliink not. 2855. Going beyond bounds, for instance ? — No, I think not. 2856. {Sir S. Northcote.) They used to do so ? — Yes, but not now. 2857. {Lord Clarendon.) If a sixth forzn Ijoy saw a lower boy. or a fifth form lio}', l)ullying another, his inclination, no doubt, would be to interfere, and, per- haps, he would have a right to do so, but would it be his duty to do it ? — Yes. 2858. {Lord T^yttelton.) In college you mean ? — Yes ; and out of college : perhaps he would not take so much trouble. 2859. {L^ord Clarendon.) Do they keep order in the boarding houses ? — Yes, that is part of their duty. 2860. I suppose they suppress all rows ? — Yes. 2861. Do they see that the candles are put out, and exercise a gener.al sort of superintendence ?- — I do not think it is part of their duty to see that the candles are put out. 2862. They only keep order ?— Yes. 2863. {I^ord L>/ttelton.) The captain of a house is a distinct position ? — Yes. 2864. {Lord Devon.) You say, " The knowledge " that each has that he holds his place In the sixth " form solely on condition of su])porting what is good '•' and checking what is bad in the school, and that " any known dereliction of duty upon this point would " render him liable to degradation, are the means " adopted at Eton to promote the ends to which this " question refers." Are you acquainted with an in- stance in which a boy has been degraded from tlie sixth form for dereliction of duty in this respect ? — Yes. 2865. Has it occurred more than once ? — At this moment I do not recollect more than one instance. 2866. {Lord L^yttelton.) And 1 believe that was the case of a colleger ? — Yes. 2867. {I^ord Devon.) Had he connived aty^r ne- glected to repress something objectionable ? — No, it was a case of misconduct on his own part. 2868. My question rather addressed itself to a case of neglect of this duty of superintendence. I wanted to know whether any boy of the sixth form had been degraded in consequence of a dereliction of that sort ? — I have no recollection of any boy having been de- graded for that. 2869. Should you, when you were Head Master, have thought it proper and right in the case of a sixth form boy having neglected his duty to have degraded him in consequence ? — If I iiad found boys behaving flagrantly ill, and a sixth form boy looking on and not checking him, I should have put him out of the sixth form. I always told a boy upon his first entering the sixth form, that that was one of the con- ditions ujion which he entered that form. 2870. {Lord T^ytfelt07i.) Does the authority of col- legers in the sixth form apply to the oppidans. Would a sixth form colleger consider that he had anj'thing to do with the discipline of the oppidan part of the school ? — I should think he would. 2871. As much to do with the oppidans as with tlie collegers ? — Not so much as with regard to the collegers. 2872. Do you thiuk the oppidan sixth form boy would deem it his duty to attend to the discipline and good conduct of the collegers ? — I think he would not. 2873. But with regard to the whole body of the sixth form, are they not regarded by the Head Master as a sort of council ? — Yes, upon whom to foil back if anything goes wrong. 2874. And in case of anything going wrong, would he not consult the whole body of collegers and oppi- dans together ? — Yes. 2875. Thei-e is a difference between your case and that of Winchester and other schools ; in some instances the sixth form boys have more or less power of corporal punishments ? — Yes, I am aware ot that. 2876. Do you think that the Eton system is a better system than that ? — Yes. 2877. What do jon think are the objections to the Harrow system ? — I think it places too much tempta- tion in the way of a boy to employ the means of cor- poral punishment placed at his disposal. 2878. {Mr. Vauf/han.) Has the monitorial and prefect power decreased at Eton during the last 20 years ? — Yes, it has lapsed and gone down very much. 2879. What has tended to bring it down ? — I do not know. 2880. Can you mention any cause ? — No, none. 2881. Still, as a matter of fact, it has gone down ? — Yes. 2882. Should you say, as has been represented to lis, that the prefect power at Eton has become a mere shadow? — There is no doubt that it is very little used now. 2883. Is it a fact that that power has been trans- ferred to any other class in the school or to any other influence ? — I should not say so. 2884. For instance, has the captain of the boats got the influence ? — No doubt the captain of the boats is always a great man. 2885. {Lord Lyttelfon.) Is he a greater man tlian the Captain of the Eleven ? — Yes. 2886. Have they got more jjower than they used to have —No, I thiuk not. 2887. I understood you to say that tlie captain of the boats is recognized by the masters as a person of great importance ? — Yes. 2888. {Mr. Vaughan.) Should you concur in this view, that the good state of Eton, without the moni- torial system, has resulted from the advantages derived PUBLIC SCHOOLS COMMISSION: — MIIJUTES OF EVIDENCIi 93 from the monitorial system when it was in greater vigour ? — 1 hardly know. 2SH9. {Lord Clare/if/o/i.) You say in answer to question 24. " The sermons in eollege chapel are " preached by the Provost and Follows in their turns " of residence." Then each would take a course of four weeks at a time ? — Four weeks, or three, as the case niav lie. 2890." The Head blaster, I believe, is rarely re- quested to preach ? — >.'ot often. 2891. The pulpit belongs to the Provost and Fel- lows ? — Yes. 2892. The Head Mast<>r rarely, and the assistant masters never preach ? — No. 2893. Do you think that a good system, knowing what etfect solemn addresses such as ai'e suited to boys have upon them, do you think that it is at- tended with beneficial results to have the boys ad- dressed by men who do not live among them, and have very little sympathy with them ; who do not see them more than one month a year, and who can- not tell what is their state of feeling ? — I think it is desirable that the Head Master should address them more fre(|uently than he does. 2894. Do you see anything objectionable to the assistant masters addressing them ? — I should think the Head Master woulil be quite siitflcient. 2895. How often do you think the Head Master should address them ? — I cannot mention any specific number of times. 2896. You would like to address tbem six or seven times a year yourself ? — Yes. 2897. Perhaps you think the Head Master ought to address them once a month ? — Less. 2898. Did you ever express an opinion in that respect to the late Provost ? — No ; he always ad- dressed his sermons to the boys. 2899. Is it not the fact that all the lower school, owing to the great number in the school, are expelled from the chapel and have to go to church ? — Yes. 2900. (Lord L^t/ttelton.) ^\^Lo preaches to them there ? — The Conduct. 2901. (Lord Clare/idon.) He is the eurate of the parish, and his .sermons are addressed to the general congregation never to the boj s ? — I believe that is so. 2902. Do you not think that it is desirable that some change should be made in that respect? — Yes. 2903. (Lord Lijttelton.) AYith regard to the assis- tant masters, do you not think that it would be a privilege greatly valued by them, and that they would take jiains to perform the duty satisfactorily, if they were allowed to address the boys with whom they have to come in daily contact ? — I never heard them express an opinion upon the matter. 2904. (J/r. T/iomjjsoii.) Is there any statutable regulation as to the number of sermons to be preached every yeai- ? — No. ETON. Rev. C. O.Good/ord. 8 July 1862. LORD DEVON in the Chair. 2905. (Lord Devon.) You say the boys attend the Church service twice on Sunday, that the Holy Cora- nninion is administered once a month, that the attend- ance of the boys there is jiurely voluntary, and that the usual average of boys attending is about 120 ? — I should say that last Sunday we had about 140. 2906. You also say that boys also attend once on half, twice on whole holidays ? — ^Yes. 2907. I should like to read to you a passage from the evidence of one of the witnesses, in order to ascertain if you concur in it. It is in the evidence ot Mr. Paul, who savs : — " The Church services, which " during the week are attended by tiie boys, are two " on each holiday, one on each half holiday. The hours " are 11 and 3, the worst which'could be devised, " breaking in on all the boys' usual |)ursuits, whereas " an early service would perhaps find him in a de- " votional frame of mind, and lends its own character " to the day. The three o'clock service coming as " it does on irregular days, is practically a mere roll- " call standing in place of a lesson, and is regarded " as such by the boys." AVhat is your view upon that point as to the arrangement for the services on week days ? — I do not think they atfect the l)oys at all. 2908. You say the services are held twice on each holiday, and once on each half holiday, the days on which they are held being week days ? — I think I should continue the 11 o'clock service. I do not think that that interferes with tiieir amusements. I should lie glad to see a short morning service on the whole school days. 2909. What is your opinion, supposing tliere was a short service on week days, what is your opinion as to the expediency of appending that to the ordinary prayers ? — I think it would take too much time. 2910. Is that your only objection ? — That is my only objection. 2911. If the service were shortened, do you think that what remained would not have a greater attrac- tion in the eyes of the boys ? — I think if you took it every day, a quarter of an hour would be quite enough for the boys, and I believe it would be a reality. 2912. (Lord Li/ttelton.) Have you observed an improvement of the boys, so far as their general con- duct in chapel is concerned, such, for instance, as bringing prayer books, and joining in the responses ? — ^Yes, there has been a very marked improvement in that respect. 2913. (Mr. Thompso7t.) Are you at Eton aifected by the Act of Uniformity. Arc you limited as to time, and the number of the services ? — I suppose we are. 2914. (L.ord Lytteltoii.) I believe the Act of tTui- formity specially includes the college of Eton ? — I think the colleges of Eton and Winchester are in- cluded. 2915. (Lord Devon.) Could you not with the Bishop's leave use the Litany onh', as they do in many churches in London ? — I think so. 2916. (Mr. Thompson.) I think you must read the whole service at one time of the day or other. 2917. (Lord Devon.) You' say in answer to ques- tion 26 : — '-All oftences do not come before the Head " Master, it i-ests with the other masters to usc their " discretion in liringing them before him or not, but " the rule laid down is that no complaint should come '' before the He.ad Master without previous notice to " the boy's tutor, in order that the two masters may " consider how far a reference to the Head Master is " desirable." Does that rule apply to all the forms in the upper school ? — Yes, to every form. 2918. And is it universally acted upon ?• — I have no reason to doubt it. 2919. Supposing that they agree that a reference to the Head Master is desirable, do they agree among themselves ? — Yes. 2920. Does the boy always know before the pun- ishment is inflicted, what he has been charged with ? . — Yes, the offence is read out to him. 2921. Has he an opportunity aiforded to him for explanation ? — Yes. 2922. With regard to the nature of the punishment, for what offence is corporal punishment inflicted ? — In the case of very little boys it may be for their lessons. 2923. Does that apply to all the boys in the lower school ? — It ap))lies to the lower boys ; they are flogged for constant idleness. 2924. (J^ord I^yttelton.) They are not flogged for mere stupidity ? — ^No. 2925. (Lord Devon.) Is punishment inflicted by the Head Master only, or by the under master for the lower school ? — By the lower master for the lower school. 2926. He is the absolute j udge there ? — Yes. M 3 94 PUBLIC SCHOOLS COMMISSION: — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. ETON. Rev. C.O.Gnodford. S Julv 1862. 2927. Where is the punishment inflicted ; in the school ? — In a small room adjoining. 2928. Is the punishment inflicted there for both schools ? — No ; in the lower school it is inflicted in the schoo. ..:;, 1 2929. Then in the lower school it is done in the presence of the boys ? — I do not know whether they are present or not. 2930. (Lord Lytfclton.) They are excluded in the upper school by a rule, are tbov ji«t ' — Yes ; and the door is shut. 2931. {Lord Devon.) Are offences m>,irj or less frequent than they used to be before ? — Less frequent. 2932. Can you tell me on the average in how many cases during the week flogging is inflicted ? — I really cannot say. 2933. How often did you have to inflict it when you were Head Master ? — I do not know that I ever took particular notice. 2934. Half a dozen times a week ? — Perhaps so. 2935. About once a day ? — Very often a day passed without a flogging. 2936. Did the occasions on which flogging took place diminish in your time ? — Yes. 2937. (Lord L^yttelton.) Do you attribute that to the moral improvement of the school ? — Yes. 2938. Was there a growing disposition to remit it for mere literary oifences, and resort to it only for moral offences ? — Yes, I think so. 2939. With regard to Latin impositions, what is the extreme length of a writing imposition ; how many lines ? — I really do not know. If a punishment was to be brought in succession for four or five days, I suppose he would be given such a thing as a Georgic. 2940. But suppose he had only offended once ? — Why he would never have more than 100 lines set him. 2941. What is the consequence if he brought it up badly written ? — It would be torn up, and he would have to write it over again. 2942. {Sir S. JVorthcofe.) Does it ever happen, or is it not with the rarest exceptions, that boys in the upper division are flogged ? — They are very seldom flogged. 2943. Did it ever happen in your time ? — I hardly think it ever did. 2944. The middle division boys would be flogged ? — Very rarely. 2945. I suppose the prajpostors are present, and only those ? — Yes. 2946. (Mr. Thompson') Can you give us any idea of the number of times in which this punishment was inflicted in the course of a 3-ear ? — About five or six times a week. 2947. Do you mean in the upper school ? — Yes. 2948. In the lower school it would probably be more frequent ? — I do not know. 2949. {Lord Lyttelton.) When you have yourself flogged was it not generally for something involving moral delinquency more or less ? — Yes ; and I can hardly think the flogging was quite so frequent as I have put it. 2950. {Lord Devon.) Would you have flogged for an aggravated case of idleness ? — Yes. 2951. {Sir S. Northcote.) Has a ease ever occurred of a boy refusing to be flogged ? — Yes. 2952. {L^ord Lyltelfon.) He went away sooner than be flogged ? — Yes. 2953. {Sir S. Northcote.) Have you had many such cases ? — Only one of late occurrence ; it was for smoking. 2954. I suppose he was high in the school? — No. 2955. Was he an oppidan ? —Yes. 2956. {Lord Lyttelton.) Have the sixth form power to set impositions in college ? — Yes. 2957. You- cannot say for certain whether it is done among the oppidans ? — Never among the oppi- dans, I think. 2958. The oppidans never set a fifth form boy an imposition ? — No, I believe not. 2959. (Lord Devon. ) Question 28 is, " Do you " consider such power essential or useful to the effec- " five maintenance of school discipline, state the " grounds of your opinion ; do they on the whole " tend to produce or to suppress the tyranny of the " stronger boys over the weak ? " Your answer is, " I do, because they ensure the maintenance of order " and subordination without espionage on the part of " the masters, and suppress much which might other- " wise go amiss without the possibility of the master's " being aware of it. I have no doubt too that they " tend to suppress the tyranny of the stronger ; the " very fact of the power being assigned to boys not " according to bodily strength, but according to rank " in school, and that the lower boy whatever his " physical capabilities be, must submit to the au- " thority of his superiors in school appears to me " necessarily to produce the result above stated." Then, would the authority of a small sixth form boy be uniformly obeyed even by a much bigger boy ? — Yes, by any boy below him, certainly in college. 2960. But not among the oppidans ? — Not so certainl)-. 2961. {Lord I^yttelton.) Do you think that the Head Master relies upon the authority of the sixth form ? — I think it is very necessary in the case of any disturbance in the school that you should have some power of that kind to fall back upon — that you should have some recognized power. 2962. The general influence of a boy's conduct and character is more regarded than any physical power he may possess ? — Yes. 2963. {Sir S. Northcote.) Let me call your atten- tion to the answer given by Mr. ComLsh at page 105. He says, " It is, however, liable to be over-strained " (that is the authority of the sixth form), and I " have known instances of very bad feeling arise " between the sixth and fifth forms in college in con- " sequence of the ai'bitrary use of the sixth form " authority." Is that at all within your experience ? —I do not recollect it. 2964. Are you inclined to believe that it is at all frequent ? — No ; I should have he.ird of it if it had been very serious. 2965. {Lord Lyttelton.) With regard to question 29 ; fagging at cricket is entirely abolished ? — Yes. 2966. There is no compulsory playing at cricket ? —No. 2967. Is there no compulsory playing at football ? — I am not aware that there is. 2968. {Lord Devon.) Have you had appeals from punishment inflicted by the sixth form, and when you have found that the sixth form has been right ? — Yes. 2969. {Lord Lyttelton.) Would the Head Master consider it his duty, upon any complaint being made against the sixth form, to investigate it ? — Certainly. At the beginning of last school time I had a case brought before me. 2970. With regard to holidays : what are they ? — They are only three times a year. 2971. Do you prefer having them three times ? — Yes ; they are three weeks and four days at Easter, six weeks and four days at election, and four weeks and four days at Christmas. 2972. {Lord Devon.) In answer to question 33, you say, " Tuesdays and Saturdays are half holidays, and " on Thursdays there is no school after four o'clock. " This is what is termed in Eton language ' a regular " ' week.' But this does not occur so often as the " name would seem to imply. During our last school " time of 12 weeks we had only five such. They are " interrupted by Saints' days and a few anniversary " holidays. There ai-e, however, only three days in " the year on which we have not one school ; a " whole holiday in the strict sense of the word save " on those three days does not exist." What are those days ? — The 4th of June, the 6th of December, the founder's day, and the 25th of March. 3973. Does it occur to you that considerable incon- venience is occasioned as regards the business of the school from these irregular interruptions ? — Yes. PUBLIC SCHOOLS COJDIISSION : — MINUTES OF EVIDENCK 95 2974. Can you suggest any course by which that objection would be obviated ? — The only thing would be to give less holidays. 2975. (Mr. Thompson.) Do you think the obser- vance of Saints' days is necessary ? — I should not like to give it up. 2976. Is it a whole or a half holiday ? — A whole holiday. 2977. Do you think that any impression is made upon the boys equal to the loss of time that is occa- sioned ? — Yes, I think so. I should only like to give up the half-holiday on the vigils. 2978. Can you trace any good effect that has been induced l>y the observance of Saints' days ? — Yes, I think so. 2979. (Lord Devon.) Suppose that provision of which you have indicated the advantage of having, a short quarter of an hour's diiily service, do you think if that were carried into effect, the observance of Saints' days would be necessary ? — Perhaps not. 2980. If you had a daily service, do you think any- thing more would be desirable in addition to the daily service ? — I am not prepared to say. 2981. (Sir S. Xnrthcote.) Do the college consider that they have perfect power to alter the holidays a they please, or is there anything that at all restricts them in the matter. Do you consider that the Pro- vost and Fellows have sufficient authority to enable them to alter the number of holidays so as to make every week perfecth' regular, or is there anything in the Statutes to prevent them ? — I think you mu.-t have the services. 2982. (Lord Lyttelton.) With regard to question 40, I believe the boys are not allowed to go into the town of Windsor ?— No. 2983. That would be taken notice of ?— Yes. 2984. (A Commissioner.) Does the system of shirk- ing stiU exist ? — Yes. 2985. What is it. I suppose if a master meets a boy out of bounds, and instead of going boldly up to the master, the boy goes back out of respect for him, no notice is taken, and that is called shirking ? — Yes, 110 notice is taken of it. 2986. I presume that the penalty would depend upon the boy's character and the place where he was seen ? — Certainly. 2987. {Mr. Thompson.) The master would not ne- cessarily know what the boy's name was, in the event of his giving a wrong one ? — I never heard of a boy giving a wrong name. 2988. But still it is possible ? — No doubt, but it would be a very dangerous thing to do. 2989. {Lord Lyttelton.) Suppose a boy were found in Windsor, and said he was going on to the Terrace, would that be admitted as an excuse ? — It would depend upon his character whether the excuse were admitted. 2990. In answer to question 42, you say, " I do not " think that boys distinguished for their progress in " intellectual studies are at present so distinguished " as they used to be in the manly games (perhaps I " should except football), and I believe the cause to " be that a much more severe and technical training " is required in both departments." Do you attribute that to the fact that more time, now-a-days, is required both for cricket and boating ? — Yes, a boy works much harder now than he did 20 years ago. A boy who plays ut cricket must give more time to it than he would 20 years ago. 2991. You say that professional training is re- quired ? — Yes, I wish all the professional trainers were dismissed. 2992. Are the oppidans more distinguished than the collegers in these games ? — Yes. 2993. I believe they do not always beat them at football ? — No ; they plav a more equal match at foot- ball. 2994. Is that because it is a game that does not requiie so much skill ' — Y'"es, nor so much time to play it. 2995. ( Sir S. Northcote.) I believe that among the collegers will be found a great proportion of the older boys of the school ? — Yes. 2996. {T^ord Devon.) We now come to the two concluding answers, which relate to the general cha- racter of the education given at Eton. May I ask you, as the general result of your experience, do you consider that the education given at Eton is satisfac- tory, and if not, have you any imiirovements or alter- ations to suggest, or any general observations to make ? — I have nothing to add to what I have stated already. 2997. Nothing to add to the opinions you have given us here ? — No. 2998. {Lord Lyttelton.) Are 30U aware of the imperfect state of preparation in which the average, even of oppidans, are found in Greek and Latin, upou arriving at the universities ? — I heard some were found so last term. 2999. Do you think that this imperfection in clas- sical scholarship has been increasing in late years ? — I hoj)e not. 3000. But you said that you thought that the collegers had been getting better and better, while the oppidans had been getting worse and worse iu their scholarship ? — I have no doubt that the collegers have been getting better, but I do not recollect speak- ing so strongly of the oppidans. 3001. Whatever the inferiority in scholarship may be, can you attribute it to any particular reason ? — I think the principal reason is that a great number of them come badly prepared as compared with the col- legers, and as they grow older they will not take the trouble to learn what ought to have been taught them when they were younger. 3002. Is there any want of stimulus ? — They have the same stimulus they always had. 3003. Yes, but I allude to their circumstances. Is there any want of stimulus owing to their circum- stances, or the circumstances of their parents ? — As a body the oppidans are boys who have not to work for their bread, and many of their parents tell them so. 3004. Has that been more the case of late years than it used to be ? — I can only judge from the results. ETON. Bev. C. O.Goodfnrd 8 July 1862. Adjom-ned. M 4 96 PUBLIC SCHOOLS COMMLSSION : —MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. ETON. Iiev.E.Balston. 9 July 1862. Victoria Street, 9th July 1862. PRESENT Earl of Clarendon. Earl op Devon. Lord Lyttelton. Sir S. Noethcote. Kev. W. H. Thompson. H. Halfop.d Vaughan, Esq. The earl OF CLARENDON in the Chair. The Rev. E. Balston, M.A., examined. 3005. (F.srd Clare i/dn7>.) Mr. Ralston, we shall be obliged to you for any information which it may be useful to i)lace on record. You are the Head Master of Eton School, are you not ? — Yes. 3006. How long have you been so ? — Since the 2oth of February last. 3007. At the time of your election you were also a Fellow of the college ? — Yes. 3008. Which fellowship you resigned in conse- quence of being elected Head Master ? — Yes. 3009. Were you previously assistant master ? — I was assistant master from May 1840, until May 1860, when I was made a follow ; a period of 20 years. 3010. In the course of your experience as assistant master you must have had abundant opportunities of observing the nature and operation of the relations existing between the Provost and Fellows and the school, and we shall be glad to know your opinion upon them, whether there has been any interference by the Provost and Follows, or by the Provost alone, I mean any real active interference with the admi- nistration and the educational business of the school, and if so whether you think it was a useful inter- ference and led to good results ? — • I should say, from my experience, that it has been beneficial upon the whole. The Provost is the person with whom the Head Master confers in matters of diiSculty, and I think it most useful that the Head Master should have some one of experience, with whom he has a right to confer in regard to matters of importance, or upon an3'thing which affects the interest of the school. The Provost has been in the habit of confer- ring with the Fellows, and from their long expe- rience of the school they are enabled to give most useful advice in case of need. 3011. I think there is a distinction to be taken between the right to confer with the Provost and the Provost being, to a certain extent, bound to give advice, and the really absolute authority of inter- ference which the Provost iiossesses and appears frequently to exercise ? — I should say that during mj' experience it has been veiy seldom, if ever, exer- cised by way of interference so as to obstruct anything which the Head Master wished to accomplisli. 3012. I think, from the evidence we have had, partly oral, partly written, that he does appear to have interfered in a manner that was not advan- tageous to the school, such as putting his veto on certain alterations of books and other matters upon which I should have thought that the ministering body would have been better judges than the govern- ing body ? — As far as my experience goes, wherever there has been anything of real importance, if it has been pressed by the Head Master, there hus been no obstruction on the part of the Provost. I do' not remember any instance in which anything really good was stopped by the Provost. 3013. I do not know whether j-ou have seen the ■written evidence of the various assistant masters ? — I have looked at it here and there, but I have not read it all. 3014. Because there are cases there mentioned in w'hich proposals or suggestions were made to the Head Master, and through the Head Master to the Provost, which appeared to be very useful and well devised, but upon which the Provost put his veto ; you think, on. the whole, there has been no inter- ference with anything really good ? — I think I may say that in all cases in which suggestions were con- sidered advisable for the school, the Provost consented to those suggestions. 3015. During the 20 years that you were assistant master your idea was that a beneficial iutiuence had been exercised over the school by the Provost ? — Certainly. 3016. When you say the Provost do you rather distinguish him from the Provost and Fellows ? The Head Master would confer with the Provost, and things would be repeated to the assistant masters, as coming from the Provost. But I know that in aU matters of importance the Provost would confer with the Fellows, and would be in most instances guided by their experience. 3017. Is it not the fact that the Fellows are very rarely together, and that therefore they would not be at hand for general conference when required ? I know that we were sununoned very frequently. 3018. From your diilerent livings ? — During the short time I was a Fellow I felt myself constantly liable to be summoned for College business with perhaps only two or three days' notice. 3019. Were these meetings generally with reference to the business of the school or the College ? — The meetings would perhaps be in reference to the pro- perty of the College, but there would be occasions on whicli matters relating to the school ■would be proposed to the Fellows for their advice. 3020. That was during the time you were a Fellow ? — Yes, the meetings were very frequent. 3021. Are there any instances which occur to you at this moment as to the nature of the business con- nexion of the Provost and Fellows with the school ? — I remember as an assistant master such cases as the omission of the Montem, or the doing away with the C!iristO])her Inn : matters of that kind were brought before the College. Dr. Hawtrey, as Head Master, wished a certain thing to be done ; there was a difference of opinion among the assistant masters. On application to the College, the College said that if the opinion of the assistant masters was decided, and was unanimous, they ^vould make no objection. That -nas done in the case of the abolition of the Christopher Inn. 3022. Has there ever been any reference to the assistant masters, as a bodj^, by the Provost and FelloviS in order to ascertain their opinions, and in that manner to be guided by them ? — It is generally considered that the Head Master recites to the College their opinions, and anything that he repre- sents as coming from the Ijody of the assistant masters is listened to with very great attention and consideration. 3023. (Lord Devo7>.) Passing on from such in- stances as you mention, have you ever, in the course of your experience as a Fellow, had questions con- nected with the arrangement of the studies brought under the consideration of the Provost and Fellows, as regards the use of the books, or any other matter connected with the intellectual -work of the school ? — I cannot at this moment remember any case, but it would api)ear to me that such things would not be considered by the Provost of sufficient importance to lay before the College ; he would act entirely on his own opinion. 3024. Supposing a question to arise as to the posi- tion which modern languages should occupy in the school ; whether, for example, it were necessary to render French teaching compulsory throughout the ■PUBLIC SCHOOLS COMMISSION: — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 97 whole school ; would that be a point which the Head Master would refer to the Provost ? — I cannot say. 3025. Or the institution ot" a class, with special reference to the teaching of modern languages ? — I cannot answer that question. I do not know whether it is necessary to apply to him with respect to the minute details of the school. 3026. We have had some reason to suppose that no 6uch change could be made by the Head Master without reference to the Provost and Fellows as to the power of the Head Master, so far as the introduc- tion of new books or new editions is concerned. Is tliat so ? — I cannot speak from any experience in the matter. 3027. Supposing it to be so, do you consider it to be a healthy state of things in a large school, that a gentleman in the position of Head Master should be obliged to refer on such points to another individual, however great his qualifications may be ? Is it not better to abide by the responsibility of a man who is thought fit to be the Head Master of the school on such points ? — With the opinion which I entertain of the unity of feeling between the Provost and the Head Master I cannot think it would be otherwise than an advantage. 3028. Does not that assume that the Provost and the majority of the Fellows must be persons of some actual experience in tuition. You used the word " experience." You mean, experience as teachers ? — In the case I have mentioned I have been con- sidering matters aff'ecting the general policy of the school. I have spoken not so much with reference to the details, guch as books, or anything of that kind ; upon these I cannot speak positively, for I can not speak to the fact of matters of such detail being brought before the College. 3029. Perhaps you will let me ask whether your opinion that it is advantageous to the school, as a whole, that the Provost and Fellows should stand in their present relation, as described by you as Head Master, is dependent on the fact that the Provost has had, ordinarily speaking, experience in the same line of action in which the master is engaged ?— Not altogether. 3030. Such is the case, is it not ? — Yes. 3031. (Lord Ly Helton.) I apprehend that in none of the great schools like Eton is there any power above the Head Master ? — I apprehend not. 3032. I understand you to say that it is of advan- tage to the Head Master to have some one to consult, and not to have the sole responsibility cast upon him ? —Yes. 3033. And you attach importance to this, — that the authority whom he consults should be one who is superior in dignity to himself? — Yes. 3034. Does it occur to you that originally it may have been the system, much more than now prevails, to call the assistant masters into counsel for the management of the school, and if so, would not that be a sufficient substitute for the present position of the Provost and Fellows ? — No. The value of the Provost being the superior is, that not being engaged in details, he can be watching the working of the whole ; not only the school, but everything connected with the place, which would otherwise press on the Head Master for consideration. It is most desirable for the benefit of the school that this shoulil be in the hands of a person whose time is not taken up by the details of the management as the Head Master's is. 3035. You do not think that a man who has rea- sonable confidence in himself, and who has also the confidence of the parents of the boys in the school, feels inconveniently controlled or fettered by such a regulation as that ? — I should say not. 3036. (^Sir S. Northcote.) Just one question with regard to the books. Should you consider yourself, as Head Master, at liberty, if you thought fit, to dis- continue the Scriptores Grajci ? — I feel that I should only have to go the Provost, and the thing would be done, if I wished it, unless there were grave reasons against it, and such reasons may in some cases ope- 1. rate where there are cert.ain interests connected with ETON, the retention of the books, which creates a difficulty „ ;7Tr ; . in respect to their abolition. Rev.E.Bahton, 3037. You refer to cases in which certain persons 9 July 1862. have a copyright, or the exclusive right of supplying certain editions ? — Something of that kind. 3038. And in these cases, however desirable it might be, and however much the Head Master might think it for the benefit of the school to change these books, the Provost would have his say in the matter with reference to the interests of the particular pub- lishers ? — The Provost would consider that justice should be done to the persons who had any such claims ; and, I presume, would take that into con- sideration. 3039. Are you aware whether such a case has ever arisen ; whether there ever has been a wish expressed on the part of the assistant masters to the Head Master, that he would change a book ; and that that wish has been foregone on account of the inter- vention of the publishers ? — I have not heard of it. I have heard that there h.as been an objection by the Provost to a book being changed, but I never heard it said that that was the reason for the Provost's ob- jection. I only said, I presumed that the Provost would take .any such claim into consideration. 3040. Will you turn to Mr. James's evidence. Now I see that Mr. James says, " The Head jNIaster " can in no way modify the system and course of " study even in the minutest particular, nor change " the books or editions used in the school without " the consent of the Provost. I have repeatedly " known suggestions of alterations on the latter " head, negatived solely because the consent has been " withheld. Many of us consider many of the school " books used to be by no means the best that could " be procured, and in fact the whole system pursued " with reference to them to be extremely unsatis- " factory. The usu.al course pursued when a book is " nearly out of print is, I believe, this, — the publisher " informs the Head Master of the fact, and proceeds " to ask some one, with the sanction of the Head " Master, to superintend the reprinting. This is " often done by one of the assistants, who has not " over much time to give to the work, and the con- " sequence of this is, that the book is re-issued full " of typographical errors, and so little altered in " other respects as not to deserve the name of a new " edition. Several, I believe almost the whole body, " of the assistant masters, joined about last Easter " in requesting the Head Master, with the Provost, " to appoint a committee of masters to consider what " alterations should be suggested in the school books " used, to make arrangements for the publishers with '•' literary persons to re-edit such books as from time " to time might require reprinting, and to consider " generally what improvements might with advantage " be introduced. In answer to this application the " Head Master informed us the Provost declined " to acknowledge any committee of the assistants " whatever on the subject, but that if we liked to " appoint a committee of our body for this purpose, " he (the Head Master) would undertake to give due " weight to our recommendations, and if he approved " of them to urge them as his own upon the Provost. " This is the state in which the matter stands at " present. A committee has been nominated, and " has held a few meetings, but has neither power nor " responsibility." Are you aware of these circum- stances which Mr. James has mentioned ? — I was informed of them after I was made Head Master. 3041. With regard to the statement he has made, have you ever heard that suggestions for the altera- tion of the books have been negatived by the with- holding of the Provost's consent? — I was not aware of it. 3042. You were a Fellow at this time, were you not ? — Yes. 3043. Not this last Easter but Easter 1861 ? — Yes. N 38 PUBLIC SCHOOLS COMMISSION :— MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. ETO^ 3044. At tliat time it would not have necessarily been brought before you, although there might have liev.E.Dakton. been communications between the Head Master and the Provost. Have you had any communication since 9 July 1862 . y^^ ]j^^.^ jjp^jj Head Master with regard to the book committee ? — Yes. 3045. Are these recommendations of the committee in any way put in shape or laid before the governing body ? — Very little has been done as yet. 3046. Is it in coiitemplation to do anything ? — Not through the committee as a committee. 3047. Because that would not be recognized ? — Not because they would not be recognized, but because I should wish it to be done otherwise. 3048. Well, then, supposing that you yourself as Head Master, and the committee, should come to the conclusion that certain alterations ought to be made, would you feci yourself at liberty to make them without submitting the whole matter to the Provost ? — I should certainly submit them to the Provost, but I should feel perfectly sure that if I did submit them they would be adopted by him. 3049. Supposing Dr. Goodford, before he was ap- pointed Provost, had formed an opinion of his own, and you as his successor came to a diiferent opinion, do you not suppose he would act on his own opinion rather than on yours? — Not if I pressed it. 3050. {Lord L;/ttelton.) Is that so — the Head Master does not appear to be the responsible person ? — My impression is that in a matter of this kind, if a thing were shown to be for the good of the school, it would be done. 3051. When you say you see great ad%-antage in the Provost being a person connected with the teach- ing of the school, do you consider it would be any advantage to have a Provost who has been wholly unconnected with the teaching of the school, who has never had an Eton education, but who comes entirely fresh to the place ; or would you prefer having a Provost who has already filled the office of Head Master ? — If he had had nothing to do with tuition himself, I should doubt whether he could fulfil the important duties of the Provost. 3052. Do you think that a gentleman who for many years has filled the position, first of assistant classical master, afterwards of Head Master in the school, and then conies into the position of Provost, can be said to be altogether in an independent position. Must he not necessarily be much influenced by the course of his life and the opinions he has formed ? — His expe- rience will give him a real working sympathy with the Head Master. 3053. Do you consider that it is desirable to alter the school-books. Mr. James says, — " With reference " to the present condition of the books used in the " school, I consider this statement which I had from " the publisher a short time ago very important ; " that whereas some 20 years ago the wholesale part " of her business was by far the most valuable branch, " it has been gradually declining since that time, and " is now of very little value compared with the retail " business ; our school books, which were at one " time the best that could be procured, no longer " commanding much sale elsewhere." Have you any personal knowledge with regard to the last statement as to the falling off in the general demand for Eton books ? — No. It may be that the editions which were brought out in the late Provost's time were not so carefully executed as they used to be. 3054. Are you about to consider measures which you think will materially improve the books ? I think it advisable that certain alterations of work should be made, and probably that will require an alteration in the books. 3055. {3Ir. Thompson.) Will you tell ns when it was that the Eton books Mastership. 3056. When was he to 1853. late Provost made the revision of the how long ago ? — During his Head Head Master ?— From 1834 3057. Were these alterations extended to the Eton grammar ? — Yes. 3058. Is that much altered from what it was 40 years ago ? — Yes ; it is altered very much. 3059. You think not for the better ? — The whole of the syntax was abolished, and Mr. Wordsworth's syntax introduced in its stead. This has been found to be not so good as the old Eton grammar to be learnt by the boys. 3060. You much prefer the old Eton grammar ? — I prefer the plan of the old Eton grammar to the syntax part of Wordsworth's grammar, the rules of which are long and difficult for boys to learn by heart, especially for young boys. 3061. Is the Eton Latin grammar the same as it was ? — The Eton Latin grammar has also been altered. The old Latin grammar was a very good grammar for boys. The present, I think, is not so good. 3062. Do you think the Latin grammar better than the Greek or worse ? — I have heard more complaints of the Latin grammar. 3063. In the present state of learning, should you say — I am speaking of the plan on whicli grammars are formed, as being adapted to boys — that they have any other merit as compared with the Eton grammar now in use ? — They were good for the time being, but we should require them to be brought up to tlie improved state of scholarship. 3064. Is the old number of Greek declensions re- tained ? — Yes ; ten. 3065. I conclude, in speaking of the copyright, that the Eton publisher would have, if not a legal an equi- table claim to be remunerated for any loss which fol- lows a change in the books used ; is that so ? — I cannot say. I can only mention one instance, which I heard of the other day, and that is the case of the Arrow- smith books, ilr. Arrowsmith's widow was dependent on the profits of these books, and this caused a diffi- culty when a change was thought desiraljle. 3066. That is a good book, is it not ? — It is not the atlas that was changed, but the geography. 3067. {Sir S. JVorthcote.) The Description Book ? —Yes. 3068. {3Ir. Thompson.) You would not think it necessary, speaking generally, that the Provost should interfere more in tlie details of the tuition, for instance, than the master of a college in Cambridge, I say in Cambridge, for I am not acquainted with tlie practice in Oxford ? — I do not know what is the amount of interference on the part of the head of a college in the University. 3069. Speaking in the abstract, do you not think the same rule of interference or non-interference which applies to a college in Cambridge would apjdy to Eton ? — No ; because I imagine that in tlio case of the head of a college interfering, he would interfere directly with persons or things requiring interference, but at Eton the Provost does not inter- fere with the boys. 3070. The master of a college does not interfere with anybody, unless he is brought before him by the tutor ? — My experience is more M'ith reference to King's than any other college. 3071. You mentioned the monteni just now, do you think the monteni would have lasted so long as it did if it had rested with the Head Master to abolish it without the consent of the Provost and Fellows ? — Yes. 3072. You think it would have lasted as long ? — Yes. 3073. The Christopher, an institution of which I am still more ignorant, would that have survived so long ? — Perhaps not. 3074. (Mr. Vatighan.) You spoke of the plan of revising the books that were read at Eton. Did that plan of the Provost's for revising the books include the rejection of certain books from among the Eton books altogether, or was it only a revision of such of the books as existed with reference to improving the edition of them ? — I did not mean to mcjition any particular plan, but the fact of certain books having PUBLIC SCHOOLS COMSIISSION : — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 9!) lipon rrvispd and altcrcJ by liini, but in many cases not improved. o07j. You are not aware whetlier there lias been an attempt to consider what books should con- tiiuie to be in use, and what shouUl be rejected as books that were not adapted to the school ? — Not that I am aware of with rei'erence to the whole of tlie books. 3076. Is it your o])inion, with rejrard to the books in general that have remained at Eton, but which may have fallen into desuetude at other schools, that they are still as good books for the school as any ■which can be made use of? — I suppose you refer to the extract books ? 307". I had not in view any particular books at tbo moment, but I wish to have your opinion with respect to the general question ? — Those which have been called Eton books, as distinct from others that may be used, are books which may be called extract books, and these, I think, are most valuable. I have never seen any collection which has pleased me so much. I think they are most valuable iu attaining the object in view. 3078. When I was a boy at school these extract books wore very much used. Are they now used generally in public schools ? — I cannot answer that question. 3079. Can you judge at all from the sale of the books ? — I see from the return that they are not used so much, 3080. Do you consider that as a consequence of the operation of fashion ? — It may be that the fashion has changed. There appears to be a desire at the present moment that boys should not re.ad extracts but the books themselves entirely through, I think that is wrong. I would very much rather use our extract beoks, 3081. And in tliat respect you have exercised your own discretion ? — Yes ; by going on with the extract books. These books of e.vtracts are better calculated to form boys' taste. 3082. With regard to the editions of the books used at Eton, is it the case that there are some editions of Eton authors which are still kept up, and arc peculiar to the school ? — There is so great a liberty allowed in using books that I can scared}' say there are any particular editions which are necessarily used. 3083. You mentioned that you were confident that with respect to any matters which were not of the very highest gravity on which the Head Master had made uj) his mind .as to what was good for the school he would have the Provost's concurrence. Did I rightly understand you to say that ? — In matters of importauce, if he had made up his mind, I think he would have the Provost's concurrence. 3084. Is that opinion founded upon j^our personal estimate of the character of one or two Provosts, or is it founded on what you know to have been the general practice of Provosts ? — It is founded on the result of my own experience during the time I have been a master. 3085. With reference to the present Provost, do I understand you ? — No ; during the time I have been emploj'cd at Eton. I was for 20 years an assistant master. 3086. How many Provosts have there been during that time ? — Three. 3087. When the Provost consults the whole of the College upon matters connected with the school, its discipline and tuition, does he consult them simply as personal advisers, or does he consult them on con- stitutional grounds because it is his duty to do so ? — The question is a mixed one, and therefore diflicult to answer 3088. If you would separate it into its parts that would enable you to give a distinct answer upon one part ? — I should say that he would consult them as his advisers. 3089. As the advisers of his own conscience and discretion ? — Yes. 9 July 1862. 3090. But has it been the general practice of tho ETON. Provost to do that ? — 1 believe so. 3091. Y'ou described the Provost's power with re- iicv.E.Bakton. gard to the books and the points of tuition in general. Is it not the case that the power of the Provost ex- tends also to the greater punishments of individual boj-s ? — The Provost's power to punish, do youmean ? 3092. I mean his power over tho discipline of the school. Does not that power extend to the punishment of individual boys. That is to say, is it not the duty of the Head Master to consult the Provost before awarding any great punishment to a boy on the foundation ? — Yes. 3093. Is it his duty also to do the same with regard to those not on the foundation ? — No. 3094. With regard to those on the foundation, do you think that is a necessary or advantageous ar- rangement ? — I think it advantageous. 3095. Will you have the goodness to draw the dis- tinction that exists between the punishment of a boy not on the foundation and the puuishment of a boy on the foundation, in reference to the discretion which should determine it ? — I do not precisely comprehend what you mean. 3096. I mean with reference to the discretion that should be .applied to determine any punishment of a boy on the foundation and a boy not on the founda- tion ? — I cannot answer that question. 3097. Am I to understand, then, that you do not see any reason which applies to the one which does not apply to the other also ; any reason, I mean, for exercising a diflerent discretion in the two different cases ? — I cannot quite understand the question. (Lord Devon.) Why is it desirable in the one case to have a reference to the Provost and not in the other ? 3098. (Mr. Thompson.') What are the circumstances that should make the difference ? — The relative posi- tion in which the boj's upon the foundation stand to the Provost is so different ft-om the position in which the oppidans stand, that the weight of the Provost's authority could not be brought to bear in the case of the oppidans. 3099. {Mr. Vnughan.) I meant in regard to tho mere justice and propriety of the punishment? — In Id'inging a boy before the higher authority for any great offence, the boy so treated must feel that the authorities have a strong hold upon him, or it is useless to bring him before them. In the case of the colleger the Provost has a very strong hold upon him, but in the case of the oppidan he has comparatively little or none. This becomes more clear in the case of expulsion. It is one thing for a colleger to be expelled as a sixth form boy, and another for an oppidan. 3100. I particularly kept out of view the case of expulsion, being aware of the circumstances that make the difference in the two cases, and I put tho case of a less, though severe punishment. I had th.at distinction in my mind. Would or would not your answer as you have at present given it come to this, that there being a certain constitutional relation existing between the collegers and the Provost, it is desirable under these circumstances, that the Provost should be applied to? — It is advantageous, I should say. 3101. Is it necessary that the Provost should be applied to in order to secure the justice of the punish- ment ? — As far as the justice of the punishment is concerned, I cannot see what your question means. There is an offence committed and a punishment awarded. 3102. Is the Head Master's individual discretion not as competent to give a just and proper punish- ment in the one case as it is in the other ? — Quite so. 3103. Did I ri_ghtly understand you to say that the connexion of a Fellow with the discipline and the affairs of the College somewhat interfered with his parochial duties ? — It might be so. 3104. Did not you say that you were constantly liable to be called away on very short notice ? — I N2 100 PUBLIC SCHOOLS COJnriSSION :— MINUTES OF EVIDENCE, ETON. said that during the short time I was a Fellow I was summoned very frequently to attend College Jier.E.Balston. meetings, which rendered it difficult for me to make any arrangements that were not likely to be broken. li!!LL^!!' 310.5. (Lord LytteUon.) Had you a living ?— No. 3106. {Mr. Tl'wmjJson.) Where did you reside ? — In Kent. 3107. {Mr. Vatighan.) If that was the case with yourself, not having any local duties to perform, but merely making those arrangements which a gen- tleman has to make in the business of life, would it not be much more likely to be the case with respect to gentlemen who have parish duties imposed upon them ? — It would, if their livings were very far off. 3108. They would have to break the arrangements in consequence of their interfering with the duty of the College ? — It might be so. 3109. {Sir S. Northcote.) With regard to the question of dealing differently with the oppidans and the collegers in the matter of punishments, you re- gard it not so much as a question of justice as a question of expediency with reference to the relation between the Provost and the scholars, and the useful- ness of bringing in the Provost's authority ? — Yes. 3110. Although, therefore, the case might be one which did not directly involve the punishment of ex- pulsion, would not the effect of the boy being brought before the Provost always, as it were, bring the idea of expulsion in the background to the mind of the boy, and would not the effect of the Provost's taking notice of any minor punishments have this weight with the boy, that he would know that his conduct was made known to the Provost, and that it might ultimately lead to more serious consequences ? — Yes. 3111. And there would be no such hold as that upon the oppidan ? — I think not. 3112. Therefore you do not think the question is one to be considered so much in relation to any ab- stract question of justice, but rather with reference to the expediency of bringing a greater weight of authority to bear on the collegers ? — Yes. ' 3113. {BIr. Vanghan.) Does the fact of the College being consulted with regard to the greater punishment of collegers at all act on the Head Master's mind to induce him to alter his judgment with regard to the punishment of those who are not collegers ? — If I understand you rightly your question is, would his being subject to the Provost's authority in reference to the collegers alter the justice of his punishment in reference to the oppidans ? 3114. No, what I mean is, would it make him liable to alter the nature of the punishments in reference to the oppidans ? — I should think not. 3115. Would there not be the danger of his so ex- ercising his own discretion in regard to the oppidans as to inflict different punishments upon them to those which are inflicted upon the collegers ? — I think not. 3116. Do you think it certain that there would be absolute harmony between the independent judgment of the Head Master and the judgment of the Provost and College ? — I think so. 3117. It is only in I'eference to the constitutional point that you think it advisable to maintain this authority by the Provost and College with respect to the punishment of the collegers ? — Yes. 3118. {A Commissioner.) To descend to particulars, do we understand that the Head Master has not the power of inflicting corporal punishment upon the collegers without the consent of the Provost ? — I mean, of course, that in cases which should be brought before the College, and which, generally speaking, have reference to offences by boys very high in the school, it is the Head Master's duty not to punish without the consent of the Provost. 3119. Little boys would be under much the same discipline in the one case as in the other, toties quo- ties ? — Yes. 3120. Have you still the old book called Script ores GrKci ? — Yes. 3121. Has it been altered substantially ? — Additions have been made to it. 3122. (Lord Lyttclton.) You said the Provost would generally consult with the Fellows as advisers on subjects relating to the school, but not as a matter of right ? — I think I said there is no mention of his consulting them as a matter of right. 3123. You draw a distinction between the position of the Fellows in respect to the property and their position in respect to the management of the boys ? —Yes. 3124. ( L^ord Clarendon.') One of the matters ty the Head Master. Dr. Goodford gave us his opinion on tliat part of the statute by which the Head Master is for- bidden to demand or claim anything for the instruc- tion of the scholars, and he informed us that when he was appointed Head Master ho declined to take the oath that he was to take in that respect, and that the clause in the oath which would Iiave bound him to the observance of that was omitted ; and, moreover, that in administering the oatli to you, and upon your feeling tlie same scruples which he had felt, he omitted it in your case also ? — Yes. 3182. The general tone and spirit and letter of the statute is absolutely against any alteration of the stipend or charge for instruction. We asked Dr. Good- ford by what authority he considered himself war- ranted in a departure from this statute, aud he directed our attention to a portion of it which, he thought, gave liim that authority. {Lord LyttcltoH.) It was in that part which had reference to the " reformationos et correctiones." {Lord Clarendon.) I wish to know whether having looked at the matter you take the same view of it that the Provost does, or whether you simply acted by his authority, in not taking that part of the oath ? Looking at what he considers his dispensing power, do you agree with him ? — I have not looked at it with reference to this point. I must have heard of it ; but I have not considered the question. 3183. {Lord Lyttellon.) You were satisfied with the Provost's general permission ? — Yes. 3184. {Lord Devon.) I should like to ask a question as to the arrangement with regard to CoUege livings. At present we are informed that the livings are given among the Provost and Follows, but that tlie conducts have a claim to certain of the livings supposing them not to have been taken previously by the Provost or one of the Fellows. The question I wish to ask you is whether you think it would exercise a useful influence on the school if the assistant masters were rendered eligible to these livings ? — I think it would be useless to offer these livings to them. 3185. On what ground? — Because it is found even now that many men do not offer themselves for Fel- lowships, and inasmuch as tlie Fellows have livings as well, the presumption is that if the assistant masters were offered even the best livings, they would not take them. 3186. Is that in consequence of the position of the assistant masters, ordinarily speaking, being much better ? — Yes, for this reason, that most of the as- sistant masters are married, and the position of au Eton master is so much better in all respects from the advantages they derive in bringing up their family, that in nine cases out of ten the offer of a living would go down the whole list of masters and not be taken. 3187. Do you think that the circumstance of their Vieing eligible for livings would be any additional in- ducement to a person at the university to come to Eton ? — It might be so ; and supposing a man found, after coming to Eton, that it was work for which he was not competent, he might then have the opportu- 9 July 18G2. nity of being released: but on the other hand there ETO>f. is this danger ; anybody who knows what the work is knows that there is something very unattractive in Hcv.E.Buhion, it, particularly at first, and if it were the practice to olfor a man and especially a young man a living, wo might very often lose a most valuable man, because ho might shrink from the work at the beginning, whereas if ho got over tliat he might become one of the most valuable men in the place. 3188. Lord Lyttelton says we have the advant.-igo in your case of hearing the evidence of a person who has filled a threefold character. In that treble cha- racter I should like to ask you a general question. Considering the constitution of the Provost and Fellows, and their relation to the school generally, does any mode occur to you by which the fellow- ships could be, to use a modern phrase, utilized in any way so as to render them generally more advan- tageous to the school than they are at present ; for instance, by the annexation of one to a professorsliip ou a particular plan, medicine, or mathematics, or anything else ? — Not as compared with tlie disad- vantage it would be to remove the fellowship, because I think that their being attached to the school is an additional attraction to men at the uni- versity to come to it in the position of assistant masters. I think that at present there is very great value in the fact of h.aving these fellowships for men to look forward to. They certainly are a means of attracting the best men, and I have heard of masters of other schools wishing to have such fellowships, because they could not get men to come to their schools. 3 1 89. {Lord I^ytlelton.) You think the taking away of the fellowships from the school would diminish its attractions in the eyes of the best men ? — Yes. 3190. {L^ord Devon.) Could not certain duties bo added to them connected with the school. I am giving no opinion upon it, but the question which I put bears reference to this point ; supposing that an existing fellowship were connected with some- thing in the nature of a professorship, charged with teaching some particular branch of instruction in the school, do you think that in that way the fellowsliip would be made more valuable to the school ? — No, for this reason, that the Vi\y tlie addition oC new subjeets altogether to the old staple of the school, or do you mean that within tlie classieai work the range of instruction has been attempted to bt' increased too much ? — The material of the work has been increased, and it has been diversified more. 3717. Diversified, do you mean, by the introduc- tion of new subjects? — I believe that modern history lias now been introduced as a lesson, but probably others would be able to give you more accurate in- foiniadon on details of that kind. 3718. You tliiiik that they have attempted to in- troduce more subjects than tlie^- can properly teach, while at the same time they have greatly enlarged the scope of the classical teaching ? — Yes ; but I do not think that they do actually teach the classics so well as they did before. 3719. Do you think that that is in consequence of extending the surface without adding to the depth of the teaching ? — Really it is a very dillieult tiling, because it comes back to the question of the indivi- dual teaching. I cannot answer that question. 3720. \\'hiit remedy would you i)ropose, if any, in the existing system, incases where a boy manifesting no turn for classics exhibited reniark.'il>le talent for mathematics. In what way could such a boy reap the full benefit of the powers he lias in mathe- matics. At present I believe the marks are given mainly for cl.assical proficiency, .are they not ? — Yes, There can be no doubt that there are certain cases in which a boy who has remarkalde talents for the ac- quisition of classical scholarship has none whatever for mathematics, and vice versa. Take the case of such a boy as Sydney Walker, one of the most remarkable and astonishing sciiolars of his age, I suppose, that England has ever produced. At the time I am speaking of he could not only repeat all the poems in Homer, Horace, and Virgil, but he could be called up in school (having an English Shakspeare in his liand) and take up a lesson an)'- whcre that it might be going on i and, notwith- standing what was going on around him, he could construe a passage expression liy expression ; parse it word by word, answer any question that was asked him, and afterwards sit down to his Shak.> speare. Well, lie went to Cambridge and got a university scliolarship, and when they examined him for his fellowship at Trinity they entreated liim to take up, if it were only one proposition in Euclid, or moral philosophy, but he said no, he could not, j-et he passed such an examination that one of the senior examiners in Trinity said that if Sydney Walker was not elected to the first of the vacant fellowships he should be very much astonished. Now, if Sir John Herschel, who was an Etonian also, had been re-, quired to undergo an examination for a scholarship, he would have been, in sporting phraseology, nowhere at all. You ask me how this is to be remedied j I reply in this way ; in every examination that takes place on boys going from one remove into another the mathematical marks form an element, we will say in the ratio of three to nine; that is to say, if 900 marks were given for classics the same rela- tive proficiency in mathematics obtains 300 marks. Supposing a boy who is a first-rate scholar out of the 900 marks gets 700, which is a great number to get, and he, like Sydney Walker, has no genius for mathematics, he would be beaten by a boy whose aggregate of marks would be 400 for classics, and 350 for mathematics. I say that that is a crushing system from which no good can come. I am quite agreed that in respect to the bulk of mediocre boys the aggregate number of marks would be the proper system to go upon, but that is not the case with bo3's who show remarkable genius either one way or the other. I would, therefore, in every remove ha^•e at the top of the remove two first classes, a first class in classics, which should have the highest position .and value attached to it on account of the 1. quantity of the work ; and I would also liavc a first class in nintliematics. In those two classes I should ]>laco a \\-\\ of the first boys in classics and mathematics in each remove ; they should be printed as first class boys in classics or mathcnialics, as tlie case might be ; and with respect to all the other boys of mediocre ability, and who would have no right to peculiar distinction, the relative number of the marks they might obtain would determine their position. 3721. {Lord Clarendon.) That would afford very great encouragement to boys manifesting peculiar talents, either in the one case or the other, I should think r — 1 never could see the slightest difficulty in so arranging it ; and look what an encouragement it would be to a boy who found himself No. 1 in ma- thematics ; and what an inducement to devote him- self to scientific studies afterwards : whereas now good scholais find their scholarship neutralized by want of mathematics, and good mathematicians are pulled down by want of scholarshij). The aggregate system of marks is, 1 think, a discouragement to boys of genius. 3722. And the result is he is discouraged in both ? — Yes, I think this is often the case. 3723. But they Iiave sei)arated the two very much at Cambridge now, have they not ? — Yes. 3724. {Mr. ]'aiiglian.) When you were speaking of the system which you would apply to eccentric geniuses you would apply that system, I presume, only to the two subjects classics and mathematics ? — No, not only. If a boy professed a genius for anything that could be taught at Eton I would give that boy every possible credit for it; but it would bo ridiculous, for instance, to introduce botaiiy into a- sdiool of that kind, neither could you give any dis- tinction for proficiency in music, still I would hold out encouragenicnt to a boy who showed a great genius for it. 3725. Do you mean to apply llwit oliservatiou to botany as representing physical science in general ? — No, I did not mean physical science in geneial. 3726. Taking a case in which a boy might not jiosscss a genius either for mathematics or for classics but who has a great genius lor physical science, you would give him a similar encouragement ? — Yes ; but the great question would be how to do it. The moment the ([uestion was mooted you would be asked, " Do you mean to alter the elementary character of " the school ? " I look on a school as a jilace of pre- paration for an end to be obtained somewhere else. If you introduce all these subjects I say that j-ou are introducing the means to produce an end, not some- where else, but here, and that you are in jioint of fact making the school into a kind of university. You must take all that into consideration. With re- spect to modern languages, for instance, do you mean to introduce French, and German, and Italian as a means of training the boy, or do you mean to adopt the Prussian or Danish system of turning a boy into the world at 17, prepared to cope with every possible subject with which he might have to cope in after- life"? 3727. Admitting that to be contrary to the principle of training a boy by nie.ans of education, with the exception of classics and a certain amount of mathe- matics, would you give a boy his choice in outljing subjects which could be taught in the school ; for instance, his choice between excellence in mathe- matics and excellence in jihjsical science, or his choice between excellence in mathematics and ex- cellence in modern languages ; so that in case he should manifest any predilection with reference to those outlying subjects, he should have the oppor- tunity given to him for their peculiar cultivation ? — I am afraid, pr.'ictically, it would not work at Eton or any other public school. 3728. {Lord Lytteltoii.) What is the difference between what you suggest and what Mr. Vaughan proposes ? — The point that Mr. Vaughan makes is this, that if five boys were to enter the school at the ETCm. liev. E. CuUiiffyt*. 9 July 1PG2. 122 PUBLIC SCHOOLS COMMISSION : —MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. ETON. same age one might say, "I will go for classics," another for mathematics, anotlier for physical science, Bev. anotlier for botany, another for music : the conse- E. Coleridge, quence of which would be that you would require live different people to teach them. 9 July 1862. 3729. What is your plan ? — My plan is for niatlie- matics to be brought in under the original system of the school. 3730. But you proposed also to facilitate the ac- quirement of a knowledge of other subjects ? — 1 would give every encouragement to the acquirement of a Ivnowledge of other subjects, but I did not say that I would admit them as a regular part of the school-teaching, or tlie regular work of the school. 3731. {3Ir. Vaughan.) My suggestion meant that a certain proficiency in the classics and a groundwork for mathematics should be required ? — Yes, that is a sine qua non. 3732. But that the moment you stepped beyond, any boy might make his choice either of modern languages or mathematics, or physical science, putting tliose three outlying subjects on a par with each other, not making any one of them compulsory, but allowing the boys to choose which of the three he would prefer for himself? — I am afraid that you would e.\;pcrieuce great difficulty in working a system of that kind. 3733. {Lord Clarendon.) May I ask your opinion ^vith resijcct to modern languages, and the manner in which they are dealt with now at Eton. Do you think tliat the present method is the right one, or that any improvement is required ? — That is possibly one of the most difficult subjects with which you could have to deal. 3734. But it is one to which the public attention has been directed very much, has it not ? — Again I must ask the question, whether the idea is to aUer the character of the school ? 3735. Other schools have recognized the require- ments of modern times, and have introduced the study of modern languages as part of the regular school work, as well as the study of classics. At such a school, for instance, as Rugby, it appears to have been extremely successful, therefore the two things can go together, if there is the will to encourage them, even without any preconcerted action witli regard to any parti- cular scheme ? — To that I will give you this answer. I think the proper office of a public school is to pre- pare a boy for some future effort, not to be an end in itself ; but if public schools are to be made the means of preparing people for professions, I think they can be made available without any loss of their public character. 3736. That is even going further than we should probably think at all necessary. But with respect to the introduction of modern languages, can it be said that the learning of modern languages is a prepara- tion for any profession ; should you not think that it is a portion of the education which every boy ought to receive who is to fill the position of an English gentleman ? — At the present time boys come to Eton at 12 or 14 years of age not half so well instructed in Greek and Latin grammar as they should be, and as they used to be. Why could they not be taught French and modern languages, modern history, and all these other things at home ? If that was done they might be taught more efic^ctually the classics at Eton. Now, boys come constantly to Eton at 14 years of age, who are obliged to be put into the lower school because they are ignorant of the rudiments of grammar, and yet can but rarely plead their early devotion to other studies as their excuse for their ignorance of Greek and Latin. 3737. Now is that a general result, because, if so, it assumes an importance that is almost national, for it shows that there is a neglect of primary education througliout the whole country that otters a marked contrast to that state of things which previously ex- isted ? — Not only is that the case in respect to Greek and Latin, but in all those otlier things to which we have been referring. 3738. Not only are they ignorant, you say, in Greek and Latin, but wholly ignorant of French, geography, history, and almost of all that they ought to be instructed in as part of the education of an accom- plished English gentleman ? — I conceive that with few exceptions they are, to a great extent, ignorant of those things, because when the examinations for modern languages take place there are, perhaps, not more than four or five candidates for Italian, 20 for German, and 40 or 50 for French, in a school of more than 800 boys. 3739. But there is only one French master for the whole of Eton, is there ? — One, and, I believe, an assistant. On the subject of modern languages, my own conviction is that German and Italian may be taught in class efl'ectually, but French cannot be. I cannot tell you more than that. I may mention that the last conversation I ever had with Dr. Hawtrey was upon this subject. I said to him, "Is there not " something in the disposition of English boys, and " especially of Eton English boys, so utterly repug- " nant to Frenchmen that it would be impossible to " teach the French language in class ;" and he said, " Sorry as I am to own it, I am obliged to confess " that I think it is so." 3740. I think if that dogma is laid down by the highest authorities the French master must fare very ill indeed at Eton ? — You may depend upon it, it is a complete impossibility to teach French at Eton in cla s. 3741. {Lord Lyttellon.') In other schools French is taught in class ? — Yes ; but how is it taught. Did you ever hear of a French class being taught at Itugby by an English mastei', without the slightest regard to pronunciation ? 3742. {Mr. ]'atighan.) I believe, as a matter of fact, you will find it is taught by a Prussian and an Englishman, but not without regard to pronunciation? — I am not aware of that fact. 3743. {I^ord Clarendon.') Do you mean that keeping as the basis of the school a classical educa- tion, you would, with respect to every other subject but classics, give a certain degree of latitude. Whether you would make it obligatory or not in the school I do not quite understand, but with respect to any distinction to be made iu anything else but the classics you would allow boys possessing eccentric genius to clioose for themselves ?.— No, I do not mean that I would work it out in a regular plan the same as anything else ; but in my own mind I do think there is not that room for an eccentric genius to dis- tinguish itself that existed under the old system. It does not seem to me that the system of examinations now permits a boy who takes a particular line of study and pursues it with great ardour the same scope for distinguishing himself that he had in former times. 3744. But in former times there were no eccenti'i- cities of genius allowed. Nothing at all was taken into account beyond proficiency in the classics ? — Yes, but in the classics themselves distinctions were made. For instance, if a boy were an admirable composer, his deficiencies in other things might be overlooked. 3745. But I understood you distinctly to say that two subjects might be allowed, and then you said that you would not include such a subject as botany. I thought you might have mentioned some subject which might be large enough to be included, and with respect to which a choice might be given to boys who manifested no particular genius, either for classics or mathematics, but who might possess a great genius for physical science ? — I believe that what I said was that, with respect to modern languages, German and Italian could be effectively taught iu class, but that French could not be. With respect to German, for instance, 1 have seen boys stand up in class. One of the boys would read a passage in Schiller. Perhaps, the teacher would say, " You have not pronounced a " particular word right ;" another boy would then cor ■ rect it, and the teacher would say, "Yes, that is " correct ; " then they would translate the passage, and the teacher would explain the construction of the PUDLIC SCHOOLS COMMISSION : — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 123 passage to them ; but I have never seen French attempted to be taught in that way. Of course, I cannot tell from my own experience wliat tlio diffi- culties attending the teaching of the French language may be, but I only go upon what I know the diffi- culties of the French master have been when he had five or six boys in a class to teach. 3746. ( Lord Lyttelton.') Would you include any branch of physical science in the regular work of tho school ? — I should be very glad to do so, but what are you to do ? You cannot put more water into a bucket than it will hold. 3747. We wish to apprehend your own plan with reference to giving more diversity and more scope for "eccentric genius" ? — I am looking at the •whole thing as if I were an autocrat ruling the school after my own fashion, and I am persuaded that I should find plenty of means of encouraging boys of eccentric genius, without introduciug any addi- tional element into the regular school work. I should soon find out what to do with a boy wlio could not understand Latin and Greek, but who mani- fested a singular aptitude for numbers, or physical science, or mathematics. 3748. {Lord Clarendon.) AVill you have the good- ness to give us your opinion with respect to the study of English literature by the boys at Eton ? — We must bear in mind that Eton is a classical school. At the same time, I am quite prepared to admit that English literature is much neglected at Eton. For- merly any average boy of ordinary taste at Eton on leaving school had read much of the English poets, and a great deal of English history, as well as other literature. I know very well that the boys used greedily to devour every poem of Sir Walter Scott, Lord Byron, Southey, and other modern poets, as fast as they came out. I recollect that there was a per- fect rush to get the first copies of the " Corsair." The boys used to spend a great deal of their pocket money in buying English books. 3749. That was a voluntary indulgence ? — Yes, and so drawn upon was it that you have nothing to do but to send a message to the Dean of St. Paul's or to my brother to send you any of their old school books, and I will be bound to say that you will find much English and Italian poelry written down flic margins of the pages and on the blank loaves l)y wa}' of illustration. Dante, Tasso, and other Italian authors were read by man}'. As to English books, we had them in abundance. The old English dra- matists, a great deal of Drvden, a srreat deal of Pope, and an immense deal of other English poetry were then read at Eton, besides most of the modern poems, but now I doubt whether you would find many boys out of the whole 800 that Eton contains who have read ten pla^-s of Shakspeare. 3750. A great change, and not for the better, has certainly taken place in the taste of the boys at Eton for English lileratiue. Have you any general suggestion tomake, ]\Ir. Coleridge, with reference to the school? — Not a great deal. I am only mentioning these things in conversation as it were. I have written down a few notes in respect to soms matters. I think that the books used in the school should be without notes. I would never allow a boy to use in school any book except a good text. That will give the teacher an opportunity of finding out what there is in a boy, and give him also a better opportunity of imparting know- ledge ; but if he is to be met, as in Mr. Mitchell's edition of Aristophanes, by one line of text to a page of English notes, comments, and explanations, instead of being the teacher, he is very likely to become the taught. 3751. (Mr. Thompson.) Is not that the ease with the Scriptores Grasci and the Poeta; Gra^ci ? — They have all of them English notes. 3752. Do you mean the text ? — No the notes are English. Then I think that the passages for trans- lation into verse are now selected without due con- sideration as to their fitness. The more modern poets whose turn of thought is not classical ought not to be selected. This in my opinion points very strongly to the real reason of the great deterioration in Latin composition at Eton which was very con- spicuous at the last election for the Newcastle scholar- ship. 3753. Both with respect to the prize composition and the ordinary work ? — Yes, but specially the former. 3754. {I^ord I.ytlelton!) Did that apply to the collegers as well as to the oppidans ? — Yes ; they alluded to the improvement in Greek and the de- terioration in Latin composition, and they attributed it to the boys being perpetually tried in translation before they have obtained what Aristotle tells you everybody must have before he can make a good composer. He must have some common places to fall back upon, some classical forms of expression out of Horace or Virgil or other good Latin poets, so as to enable him to grapple with his own ideas. You never can get a good classical form of expression out of purely English ideas. A boy is told perhaps to turn some poem of Tennyson's into Latin verse, and such a hash is made of it as never was seen ; and then the tutors' hcirts and energies are broken in looking it o^er and correcting it. 3755. (Lord Clarendon.) Do you attach much im- portance to composition in Latin verso ? — Yes, very great importance indeed, my Lord. 3756. You could not afibrd to take any part of that off in order to have time to do any other kind of work in the school ? — Yes, I might, when I came to consider that most interesting point of the intro- duction of other matters into the departmental system of the school, have something to say upon that. 3757. Perhaps you liad better go on with your suggestions ? — I think there is another great alter- ation which might with advantage be made in the school. At present the Head Master has the care of about 17 divisions in the upper school, and tho lower master has the care of several little divisions' in his, but these latter are all under his eye. He sees all the work that is going op, and can almost hear the teaching in the different divisions. The Head Master has the care of about 700 boys, and the lower master of about 120. For the teaching of these 120 there is the lower master himself and four assistants ; and the Head Master has for the teaching of his 700 I)oys himself and 16 assistants. But the Head Master has a great deal of heavy work in examinations which he ought not to have, and it is enough to destroy the energies of any man. I ' think there is too much examination of the boys, and I am of opinion that while on the one hand the boys are over examined, the masters on the other are worn out and their energies deadened b)' the repeated examinations and the looking over of papers. I believe what really is wanted in the upper schopl at Eton and what was very much the subject of dis- cussion in my time, is three or four viceroys under the Head Master. The school divides itself naturally in certain places. I would invest the Head Master with the immediate control of his own division and relieve him from anj-thing else. I would then make four senior assistant masters. I would not let them be, as at present, the masters of the four senior divisions of the school, but I would pl.nce the four senior assistant masters, one at the head of the upper divi- sion of the fifth form, with the control of the niiddle division ; the second at the head of the lower division ; I would place the third senior assistant master at the head of the remove, having control over the masters of the remove, and another at tho head of the fourth form. The Head Master would thus have as it were four viceroys who would be able to watch the working of the school and see the defects. They would in fact form a little con- sultative body whom he could call into council as it; were once a fortnight or a month and ask them if they had anything to suggest. Any one of them might say it would be a great improvement if such and such a thing could be introduced or taken off, and it Q2 ETON. E. CokrUl.jv. 9 July 18C2. 124, PUBLIC SCHOOLS COJDIISSION:— MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. ETON. R,v. E. Culeriilye. 9 July 18G2. might be done or not as the Head Master might tliink fit. In this way the mhid of the Head Master would insensibly pervade the whole of the divisions ill the school in a way that it cannot do now. I assure you that it is quite impossible for the Head Master at pi-escnt, without giving great offence or instituting a system of espionage which would be in- tolerable, to know what is going on in any other division than his own. 3758. Would you suggest anything further ? — Again, I think tlie collegers ought to pay notliing for their maintenance in any shape or way. I have .advocated this to the best of my power, and I think it is a thing in which the honour of tlie College is concerned. When I was taught at Eton my educa- tion cost me the best part of 70/. or 80/. a year. No colleger ought even now to pay more than from 151. to 2oL In point of ftict he ought not to pay at all. I should, however, very much lament the day when anything like a pauper character should lie given to the Colleges, because I think it would destroy the tone of the whole school. 3759. There is a question with reference to taking off the gown? — I should very much rue the day that sucli an alteration was made, such a disgrace as I should think it inflicted upon the collegers. I lielieve there is not a colleger in the place but would repudiate the idea. 3760. Yet one or two of the assistant masters are in favour of it, I mean masters who have lieen on the foundation. Mr. Paul, for instance, expresses very strong opinions about it ? — Ask the Archbishop of Canterbury or Bishop Lonsdale what they think about it. 3761. The question I think is what are the feel- ings of the boys upon the point now, and whether it would be expedient to discontinue it ? — For my part I think they ought to wear trencher caps too. There is one radical defect in the appointment of the assistant masters. They are called off from the University too soon. That is in my ojiiniun a very great defect, although I do not expect you ([uite to comprehend it Ijccause you ha\e never had to teach children. I have had 32 years' ex- jierience of boys from those of first-rate intellect and advanced education down to children of eight, nine, and ten, years old, and I am persuaded that it is a very nmch more diilicnlt thing, and requires very much more mastery of all you know, to teach a boy of nine years old than it does to deliver lectures to more advanced scholars. When I was the senior assistant of Dr. Hawtrey I made a deliberate pro- posal to go down from the fifth and t.'ike charge of the fourth form. Boys come to the lower school often in the most scandalous state of ignorance and want of preparation ; notwithstanding which a young lad from Cambridge, perhaps 22 years of age, is put over them, who knows little or nothing of boy nature, and who buys his own experience at the cost of many wrongs done unintentionally to those under his care. I suggested that the youngest masters ought not to be set to tea'-h the youngest boys. I think my idea of a viceroy over the fourth form would cor- rect that. I would give the senior master the power of handling and proving the division of any master in his viceroyalty. For instance if the master of the fourth form had four assistant masters under him, he should be at liljerty to say to one of them, " Number " f;o and so I will take your division for a week." 3762. Still retaining his vice-royalty ? — Yes, that is only a suggestion ; then I would say that the assis- tant master should not have any pupils at first ; they should be entirely under the class master at first. But then I would suggest that all the assistant masters who would be above those who had no pupils should give up their salaries, which are small, and cannot lie a real consideration to any successful master. They never have been a motive to induce any man to come to Eton ; it is idle, it is ludicrous to say that they have ; I would therefore suggest that they should bo left in the Head Master's hamls, and that that money should be expended in paying the junior assistant masters, who have no homes for the reception of private pupils. I would do that to make it worth their while to come as masters for a time without pupils. This payment, together with what they might get from the fellowship at King's College or at Oxford, would give them perhaps 400/. a year, and I think that for that salary young men would bo found who would be content to devote themselves to working a class, with the certainty of having, when they rise to a certain position, a house and pupils. 3763. What would be the amount of the fund ? — Seventeen masters receive 40 guineas a year, and one 50 ; that would make a fund which would enable you to give three young men 250/. a year, and coming as lliey would with a fellowship of 300/. a year tliat would give them above 500/. a year. All that they would have to do would be to teach in class, and they might live in lodgings. I should think that any young man would only be too glad to do that for two or three years with a certain prospect of having a house and pupils in a few 3-ears. The consequence would be that having all the experience of his work in school he would be a better tutor altogether, and he would Jiave learnt the art of training before he was plunged as ceitain }-oung men often have been plunged into a large house with 30 or more pupils and a gross income of 4,000/. a year, without having done suf- ficient work beforehand. 3764. (Mr. Vaughan.) Did you say 4,000/. a year ? — Yes. 3765. {Lord Clarendon.) Do you attach great im- portance to restricting the choice of masters to Eton men whether they are oppidans or collegers ? — Yes, I do. It is strange, perhaps, to say that an Eton boy, the son of an English gentleman, should differ from the son of another English gentleman, but there is something about the Eton boy, whether derived from his associations, habits, or tone of feeling that arises from long connexion with the place, that renders him, when a man, peculiarly fitted to fill the ofiice of an assistant master ; and I should consider that it would be quite a risk to take anybody else. At the same time I would break down all distinctions between the collegers and oppidans. I wish half the masters in the school were oppidans. Fancy if such men as the Bishop of New Zealand had been enabled to offer themselves as assistant masters what a weight and power in the school such men would have had. There is one very important point that attaches to the whole subject, and that is whether, without abandoning the classical element, the classical basis on which the College rests, and which must be maintained even at the sacrifice of everj-thing else, Eton can be made available for the purpose of pre- paring every boy in England that goes there for any department in life that he may be called upon sub- sequently to fill. I believe that by the aid of a very little additional machinery a boy might be prejjared at Eton for the navy, for every department of tlie army, even for the diplomatic service, and certainly for the civil service, whether of this country or India. My scheme would be this : a paper should be most carefully prepared with the assistance and advice, in each department of the public service of one or two of the most prudent and thoughtful men, engineers, artillery officers, colonels of regiments, persons of experience in the diplomatic or Indian services, and so on, and that upon those papers so framed a system of examinations should be based. It should also be determined at what age, considering the requirements of the examination, each boy ought to commence his distinct and specific preparation for it. I would then have the answers of the persons so consulted embodied in a code of instructions or regulations, such as the following : — All hoys, intended for the navy must go into preparation at such a time ; all boys candidates for the military service, common line, at such a time ; all boys for the artillery and engineering service, such a time ; all boys for the Indian civil service, such a time ; and so on through PUBLIC SCHOOLS COMMISSION:— MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 125 be vnrious departments of the public service. I ' iuM have that paper printeJ, aud placed in tlie iiuud of every boy's parents, together with a notice requesting them to forward an intimation to the authorities of the School, (and if they did not, the blame would be with them.) of the profession which it was intended the boy should follow, that intimation of course being given when the bo3' was 12 or 13 years of age, or at whatever age it might be necessary to do so with a view to the re(|uisitc .imouut of preparation, so that whetlier the boy was intended to enter the army or navy, or civil service, the moment he reached the proper ago he might be pnt into proper training for the particular depart- mental branch of instruction, retaining, as I said before, a certain amount of classical instruction, but, at the same time, giving fuller instruction in the subjects necessary for the passing of the examination in the particular department for which the boy was intended. 3766. (A Commissioner.) That is what we under- st.ind, I think, by the system of bifurcation ? — Yes, tlie only difficulty would be to provide two or three masters specially prepared for training boys in the various branches. There would be no difficulty whatever with history, geography, and so on, and I think that you might easily tind in our service military, or engineering, or artillery officers with sufficient leisure to impart instruction in the parti- cular branches in which they served. 3767. I do not (juite see how jou could do all this without giving up classics? — 1 would never give classics up. At present the boj-s devote three hours a week to mathematics, aud all the rest of the time is devoted to classics. Suppose you subdivided the work into 20 ]>arls, instead of giving, as now, three to mathematics, and 17 to classics, under the system I ])ropose, I should give 12 to-special branches, and 8 to classics. 376S. With composition J' — I would have uo com- position excepting the translation of English into Latin or Greek )>rose. or Latin or Greek prose into good English or Freiicli, or any other language you liked. It might be done in that w.iy, and then if any boy had a genius for the study of the classics I would let him do his composition in Latin verse if he liked. 3769. We have often had something like a system of bifurcation under trial. At what age would you begin this system of preparation ? — In some cases from IH years to 14 years of age. 3770. In other cases I presume not before 14 ? — Xo ; I am persuaded of this, that not only could such a system be worked without any detriment to the general prestige of the public system of educa- tion but it would operate most beneficially uiwn the public service. 3771. You would not thiuk it would produce aay- thing like a feeling of alienation in the minds of parents from Eton as a public school ? — That was an objection once made to the plan. I would not do away with one single tie that now binds the boys aud their parents to Eton, and I do not see why, if boys can now go to mathematics three hours in the week, they could not devote a portion of their time to some other branch of instruction. 3772. But mathematics is a general thing ; all the boys go to it ? — But all separate to each other. I do not think it would be at all difficult to draw out some such scheme as I have shadowed forth. Why should uot a boy be just as well prepared at Eton if you used the same amount of powder as he could be in any private establishment. Why, with all the ETON, means and appliances of Eton, should it bo necessary ~ — to send boys to be trained, or rather, I should say, r, /-.i'"';,, crammed, lor their examinations ? 3773. {Lord Clarendon.) Is there any other point 9 July 1S62. on which you wish to make an observation ? — There — is only one point ; that is with reference to the fact that for seven years uo op|)idan has been able to ob- tain the Newcastle scholarship. 3774. {Lord I^i/tleltOH.) Anything on that point which you could tell us would be very valuable ? — I can only tell you the simple ftict, and refer you to the lists of former j-ears to satisfy you that it was not so foniierly. 3775. When wtis the competitive system intro- duced? — The competitive examination for the Col- lege w.as introduced a great many years before oppi- dans ceased to obtain scholarsliips. 3776. Would yon .advocate any kind of matricula- tion examination for oppidans previous to their en- trance into the upper school ; would yon make it a rule not to admit an oppidan into the upper school unless he had got to a certain point in grammar tr.aining ? — There is something like it at present. 3777. Would you not put the preliminary exami- nation for admission higher than it is ? — It is insuffi- cient I think. 3778. {Sir S. Xorthcote.) Would you relieve the Head Master of some of the examinations ? — I would not make it a dishonour to the He.ad Master to have anx'thiiig done for him as it is now. To ihis very hour it is considered a stain upon the escutcheon of any Head Master to have anything done for him. I wish you could see the examination pajiers he has to look through. There are 12 papers of Latin, Greek, history, geography, and theology, besides all the mathe- matical i)apers. Each of those papers extends over two or three closely jninted pages, and sometimes there is .1 single paper of questions, which will take j'ou the best part of an hour to look through. That is not all ; that is merely an examination of a particular ]iart of the school which takes place every year. The most important examination is the one in which everybody is jilaeed, the collegers even changing places bj' the result of the examination. Now I think that if the Ile.id M.aster was assisted by the two senior masters, and if each took four papers, one in composition, another in Greek, and another in Latin, and another a miscell.uneous paper, it would be far better. Besides this there are all the examinations for placiHg the removes twice every year, so that the work must be multiplied two or three times. AVhat I should propose is tliat the Head M.aster should in- vite two gentlemen to come and look over these papers, and that with respect to accidental matters (suppose for instance a boy had been ill some time) a little allowance should be made, and the Head Master should have the power of moderating in any case of difficulty. I attach much im|x)rtauce to the fact of having two independent gentlemen to look over the examination papers, as iu the case of the Newcastle scholarships. 3779. Do you not think one reason for the falling off of the oppidans iu respect to the Newcastle scho- larship may be found in the fact that the collegers have such an immense stake dependent on their pro- gress that they use a great deal more exertion ? — No doubt there is much in that, but not enough to account for the great disproportion of oppidans to collegers in the competitions for honours during the last seven or eight years. Adjourned till to-morrow. 12G PUBLIC SCHOOLS COMMISSION :— MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. ETON. Hev. r.E.Vanifort!. 10 July 1862. Victoria Street, 10th July 1862. PEESENT : The Earl of Clarendon. The Earl of Devon. Lord Lyttelton. SrR Stafford Northcote, Bart. The Rev. W. H. Thompson. H. Halfokd Vaughan, Esq. The earl OF CLARENDON in the Chaik. The Rev. Francis E. Durnfop.d, M.A., examined. 3780. (Lord Clarejidon.) Mr. Durnford, you are senior assistant master at Eton ? — Yes. 378L How long have you been assistant master ? . — Twenty-three years last June. 3782. Can you give us any opinion as to the peculiar relations existing between the Provost, the Head Master, and the assistants. Do you consider that llie Provost has a very high authority in the scliool ? — Decidedly, Nothing is done without hi j sanction, not in the most minute school matter. 3783. Do you mean with respect to organization and discipline as well as the educational part ? — The Head Master always consults him, and I suppose he would bow to the Provost's wish. I do not think he could do anything without consulting, nor would he wish to do so. 3784. As far as you have been able to judge from your own observation, are the relations which exist between them of a healthy character ? — Yes, and highly desirable, according to my view ; most de- cidedly healthy. 3785. In what way do you think it is useful tq maintain these relations ? — It is useful to maintain them because you have the advantage of an older man who has had much experience in the place, generally speaking. 3786. You do not think that the governing body, which is the Provost and Fellows, have interfered undul)' ? — No, never. 3787. Not in the administration of the college ? — No. No wish of the Head Master's is really thwarted that I know of. 3788. What are the relations which exist between the Head Master and the assistant masters. Does the Head Master h.abitually consult them ? — If there were any changes in the school with respect to the books, or anything of that kind, that he wished to introduce, he would call us together and ask us whether we liked it or not, and he would bow, I suppose, to any suggestion we might make. We are alw.ays at liberty to make suggestions. 3789. Is it the practice for the Head Master to consult his assistant masters at stated periods ? — There is no stated period. We meet before every school-time. All the assistant masters go into what are called chambers, and then we meet each other, and anything reg.arding the discipline of the school, or any remarks which are necessary to be made, we state to the Head Master. 3790. That meeting at chambers is just before you go into school, and not for the purpose of con- sultation ? — Yes. Sometimes [ think they may be said to be meetings for purposes of consultation, be- cause questions are occasionally raised upon any points upon which it may be desirable to raise them, and opinions are expressed. 3791. (Lord Li/ttehon.) Usually, these meetings do not occupy more than five minutes, do they ? No, but they are held three times a day. 3792. {Lord Clarendon.) But if you had any sug- gestions to m.ake to the Head Master that you thought were important and for the advantage of the school, you would not have the least ditticulty in making them ? — No, not the least. No objection is ever made to the bringing forward any suggestion for the advantage of the school. 3793. {Mr. Vaughan.) Are the relations in which the Provost stands to the Head Master, as to the discipline and education, generally understood by all the boys in the school ? — Yes, I think so. 3794. Do you think that the control of the Provost tends in any way to affect or impair the authority ov respect which is paid to the Head Master, or which he might otherwise have if the control of the school lay more completely in his own hands ? — No. X do uot think so. 3795. You do not think it affects the respect which is paid to the Head Master himself, that he is obliged to resort to a higher authority in important matters ? — I do not believe that the authority of the Provost has ever interfered with the authority of the Head Master. 3796. I am not asking that at all. I was asking whether, it being well understood among the boys that there is this higher authority to which the Head Master must apply, this does or does not diminish to a certain degree the respect and power of the Head Master ? — No. The whole system is one of deputing authority from one to the other both amongst the rnasters and boys, and tliey feel equal respect for the Head Master ev?n though he is undev authority. 3797. Do you not think that if his authority had a more complete and final character, he would, from being in a higher position, command in a degree the respect of the boys ?-r^Np, I do not think he would. 3798. Will you explain what you mean by saying that the whole system at Eton consists iii de- puting authoiity from master to master, and boy to boy ? — I meant rather by the boys themselves. \ mei^nt that in my own house I manage my own boys througli my captain, and that my captain is responsible to myself. In the same way I meaut, th.at in respept to the school, it is managed by the Head Master, b\it the Head Master is respojisible to the Provost. 3799. But taking that analogy, is not the respect which is paid by the boys to the captain in the boarding house something very inferior in degree to that T,vhich is paid to the master of the boarding house ?-^What I' n^ean is this : Supposing, for in- stance, a disturbance takes place in my house, I do not know who has made it, but I say to the sixth form boy or captain, " You must find out who has made it," and so he would do immediately. He would feel that he could do it, and would do it. 3800. But I suppose the boys would not look up to the sixth form boy, who had authority deputed to him, as they would to the master. He would stand in a very different position, with regard to gaining the respect of the boys, to the position in which tlie master himself, from whom the authority came, would stand ? — Yes, I do not say that he would not ; but I say, that as much as you can trust any boy with authority, you can trust a sixth form boy. Of course it might be highly dangerous to invest them with anything like supreme authority. 3801. {Lord Clarendon.) You say that in the fifth form French has been introduced as a voluntary element for examination. The marks are given as for the classics ? — Yes. 3802. French is not part of the regular curri- culum of the school ? — No, it is not. 3803. But the boys may take up French for exa- mination V — For examination certainly. That was introduced by the late Provost. 3804. Was it done when he was Head Master ? — No, I think it was when he was Provost. It was done with his sanction, the late Head Master, Dr. Goodford. I think he suggested it to PUBLIC SCHOOLS COMMISSION:— MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 127 3805. Do many of the boys avail themselves of the permission ? — I Iiclieve a great many of them do. I cannot tell you the exact proportion ; but out of a remove of about 60, I should tliiuk about one-half of them would take up French. 3806. {Lord LijtteUon.) What part of the school do you refer to ? — To the fifth form ; but I dare say you, my Lord, would know more about it than I do myself. 3807. {Lord Clarendon.) Do you know how many of the boj's learn Frencli out of tlie whole of tha scholars at Eton ? — I suppose there are about 150 pupMs out of the whole who learn French. 3808. {3lr. Thompson.) I think 77 was the num- ber stated yesterday ? — I should have thought we had about 150, taking the proportion out of every division. I have 20 of my own. I should certainly have thought there were as many as 100. 3809. {Lord Clarendon.) There is only one French master, is there ? — One French master, with an assistant. 3810. You do not consider that the study of French is much attended to at Eton ? — No, it is not attended to in comparison with the classics or mathematics. 3811. But do }'ou not think the study of modern languages would be very desirable ? — It would be very desirable, but there are two great difficulties. First, the difficulty of introduction, for something must give way ; we cannot put on more work, that is impossible. Next would be the difficulty in the choice of proper persons to teach the language. I suppose no parents would like their children to be taught by an assistant master, an Englishman, and the great difficulty would be in introducing a body of foreigners. I do not know liow that could be arranged, for I do not think that a number of Frenchmen in a school like Eton would ever obtain the respect of boys. I am afraid the whole thing would be ridiculous. 3812. Has it ever been a matter of consideration with you as to wiiether anything might be safely given up or taught in a different way, so as to occupy less time, although not, perhaps, witli less great results than are obtained at present ? — I suppose if anything could he it would be some of the repetition lessons. I really do not know of anything else. As it is our classics are not what they ought to be. 3813. Do you tliink the scholarship at Eton h.as at all gone down of late years ? — No ; I think, on the whole, that tlie average is better. The boys, generally speaking, go away from Eton knowing more than they used to do certainly when I was a boy. 3814. You think that, although Latin scholarship has rather fallen off, Greek has improved ? — Yes ; the examiners for the Newcastle scholarship will tell you that is no doubt true. But the Greek is certainly far better than when I was a boy. Now it is a common thing for a boy to bring up Greek iambics, even in a lower part of the school. 3815. Do you find the boys generally ill-prepared who come to Eton ? — Yes ; in general I think they are not well prepared. 3816. Do 3'ou think they come to Eton less well prepared than they used to come. Has that been the result of your experience at Eton ? — I do not think they know their grammar so well as they used to do. 3817. That is to say, that they come ill grounded ? —Yes. 3818. At what age in general do the boys come to you ? — Between 12 and 14. 3819. And at that time you do not find that they have an average knowledge of English history, of English literature, or of grammar ? — I have no op- portunity of judging of their knowledge of English history or English literature. It is merely with re- spect to Greek and Latin grammar that they are Tried in our pupil rooms. 3820. In the Greek and Latin grammar ? — Yes. 3821. {Lord Li/tfel/on.) Do you think their pre- paratory schooling is not so good ? — I do not wish to say anything against preparatory schools. 3822. {Sir^S. Northcote.) With regard to the con- ETON. dilion of the boys who come to Eton and who are placed at once in the upper school, I would ask you, Hcv. do most of the boys come from private schools to be P-E.DuniforJ. l)laced in the upper school ?— Yes, and sometimes ,„ /TTo they are found not fit for it. l ojulyiscj . 3823. Is it to a great extent the case that boys come expecting to lie placed in the upper school and that they find tliemselvcs not fit for it ? — Supposing there are 50 new boys, and eupposing that all these 50 try for the upper school, I should say that out of them about 10 would fail. 3824. And would these 10 boys be about 12 years of ago ? — Probaliiy older. I should say that most of those who fail are boys of nearly 14. 3825. Those boys, in point of fact, whose educa- tion has been much n'^glected ? — It is a curious thing, but you will find in the lower master's return th.at most of the boys who are weak and fail are not the younger but the older boys, and it shows either that the standard is too high or that they are badly pre- pared. 3826. What is your standard ? What must a boy do to be placed in the fourth form ? — We give him 12 verses of translation from Ovid and he must be able to do two out of the 12. That would be suffi- cient, so far as verses are concerned. 3827. Do you give him the translation? — No, the Head Master does. 3828. The Head Master gives him an English translation which he has m.ade, and which tlie boy has to turn back again into Latin verse. Is it to be a literal translation ? — A literal tianslation, and besides that he has to turn apiece of English into Latin prose, I tliink of Cicero or Nepos, and he has to construe a piece of iEsop's Fables. 3829. (J/r. Thomp.ion.) In Greek?— Yes, iu Greek, and a piece of Ca;sar in Latin. 3830. {Sir S. Northcote.) Is it found that a boy of 12 or 13 years of age who comes to Eton and is placed in tlie lower school passes rapidly out of it into the upper .school, or does it sometimes happen that a boy is kept in the lower school for a long time? — The lower master has no desire to keep them, and presses them on ; but they come out of the lower school exceedingly well prejiared. 3831. With reference to boys coming very youn"- and being placed in the lower school, do they come into the upper school wi(h a much better amount of preparation than boys who come from private schools? — Yes, I think so. If jou look at the lists you will find that they take the higher places. 3832. {Mr. Thompson.) How many masters do you think would be necessary for 800 boys if they are to be taught French properly ? — The mathematical staff supplies an analogy. 3833. How many mathematical lessons are there a week ? — Each bo)' receives three lessons a week. 3834. Would not two lessons in French be enough? — It would be as much as we could possibly afford. 3835. There are seven or eight mathematical mas- ters, are there not ? — There aie eight. 3836. Do you think that three French masters would be sufficient for the school ? — I should think it doubtful. 3837. At Rugby they have two masters in modern languages, and the number of boys in that school is rather more th.an half that at Eton, I believe ? . — I think that may be so. 3838. The sum paid by each boy who learns French is something considerable ? — Yes, 10 guineas a year. 3839. That of course diminishes the number of those who learn ? — It does ; but I do not suppose that it is a point which is much considered. I do not think the stamp of boys that we have at Eton is of such a cliaracter that their parents would object to pay 10 guineas a year for learning French. 3840. Do you know how many lessons they obtal'i for that 10 guineas a year ? — Two oral lessons, and one iu composition, three times a week in all. Q4 12S PUliLIC SCHOOLS COMMISSION : — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. ETON. lieu. F.E.Durnford. 10 July 1&62. 3841. Is the French master allowed to^ take private pupils ? No, I think that in consetiuence of difference of manners the idea wouUl be incompatible. 3842. Do you think the difference of manners exists only in Frenchmen. Would not the objection apply equally to Kalians or Germans ? — I do not think it would apply so much to a German. 3843. Do you think that a German would be able to manafre the boys ?— Yes ; the style and general tenor of the mind of a German is veiy different to that of a Frenclunan, and approaelies much nearer to the tone and tenor of an Englishman's mind. 3844. You think the German character is more staid ?— Yes. 3845. {Mr. Vatighan.) With regaixl to these boys who come to Eton very young, do tjie parents commonly consult tlie tutors some time before sending them to school, as to where they should send them for preparation for Eton ? — It is commonly done, but not always. 3846. I.S there any set of schools in particular, wliich the tutors commonly refer them to on these occasions ? I suppose each tutor would have a school which from experience he could safely recommend. I do not know that there are any particular schools that are preferred. 3847. Are there any particular schools whicli aie considered by the mass of tutors to be the best schools to whieli parents can send their children for the purpose of being prepared for Eton ? — No ; I do not know of any particular class of schools of that kind. 3848. With respect to those schools to wliich tutors recommend children to be sent for preparation, is there anything like a constant commuuieation going on between the tutors and tlie masters of these schools ? — No ; I do not tliink so. 3849. As a matter of fact, do they come generally prepared from schools of that class, or do they come as often liaving been prepared at home? — They usually come from schools — that is to say, I think tlie majority of the boys come from schools. .3850. Do many come direct from home ? — Not a great man}'. 3851. Some do ?— Yes. 3852. Have you any means of knowing whetlicr those who come from home are worse prepared than those who come from preparatory schools ? — No. 3853. Has or has not, within your memory, the number of boys in the lower school at Eton greatly increased ? — Very much. 3854. What has been the cause of the increase of the boys in the lower part of the school ? — More industry on the part of tlie lower masters, I think. 3855. Has it Ijeen part of the S3'stem of the school that there should l)e more efficient lower masters appointed. Has there existed any feeling on the part of the school that the instruction of the lower part should be taken in hand by an efficient man. Or is it an accidental circumstance that masters of the lower scliool have lieen more efficient ? — I think it is mainly attribut.able to the character of the lower master himself. I think the late lower master of the school, Mr. Coleridge, did a great deal towards raising the character of the lower scliool, and that since his time it has gone on improving. 3856. {Sir S. Norlhcote.) Including his time, and since that time ? — Yes. 3857. {Mr. Thompson.) Since the time of the accession of Mr. Coleridge? — Yes, that was the turning point. 3858. Did Mr. Coleridge t.ake great pains to provide better instruction for the lower depart.aent than existed before ? — I do not tliink he made any material alterations. He took tlie systeni as he found it in existence, 3859. And made great improvement ? — Yes ; and generally speaking, if you find the Head Master works, you will find that the assistants work. 3860. {Mr. Vaughan.) It was the example, then, that was set by Mr. Coleridge, that produced tho improvement ? — Yes, 3861. Has that had the effect of attracting many more boys to the lower school ? — Certainly. 3862. Mr. Coleridge has left the position of lower master. How long is it since he first took tliat position ? — Four years. 3863. Was he lower master sufficiently long before lie left the school, or is it sufficiently long from the jiresent time to admit of comparison lieing made between the hoys educated at the lower school under tliat system and tliose boys who come from prepa- ratory schools ? — The boys who came from him gene- rally did well. But he had a remarkable power of teaching. 3864. Sujjposing a parent, who liad a son of the age of five years, were to ask you at what age yon would prefer his coming to Eton, what answer would you give to the question ? — That I should prefer his coming there from U^to 12 years of age, 3865. Do you think a public school is not suited to a boy at an earlier age than that ? — I do, I do not like it very well for little boys. 3866. Has there not been some alteration made in i-ecent years with regard to providing for the comfort of the boys in the lower school ? — Yes ; they can be now kept entirely apart. 3867. Has that been an improvement ? — A great improvement. I dare say that may be one of the reasons that has caused it to flourish so much, because they can be kept quite distinct from the older boys. 3868. {Lord Lyttelton.) You do not mean that all the bojs in the lower school are kept wholly separate from the Qtlievs ?-^Yes ; almost entirely, 3869. {Mr., Vaughan.) With respect to Mr. John Hawtrey's liouse ; in what sense is his liouse wholly separate ? — It is occupied almost exclusively by lower school boys. 3870. In wliat manner does the arrangement act, so as to ameliorate the condition of the lower boys ? — The objection was that a boy of nine years old was placed with older boys, and it was not thought fit he should be ])laced with boys of 18 years of age, but that on the contrary they ought to be kept more distinct. 3871. Do you concur in that view ? — Yes ; I think it is Ijctter that they should be separate. 3872. {Lord T^yttelton,) Was this arrangement taken into consideration and extended to the whole of tlie lower school instead of comprising only part of it ?— - No, 3873. {Mr. Vaughan.) Do you think tliat a public school in which such an aiTangement exists is not the best place for a boy so young as 9 or 10 ? — I do. But I have no hesitation in saying that the teaching is far better than they get at most private schools. I think they are better prepared, 3874. But still, you think it Is not the best place for them ? — Yes. 3875. Is it only in reference to the boys of 18 or 19 years of age that you think it is better for the younger boys not to be there? — No; I think that when you get a number of little boys, say from 40 to 50, together, it requires excessive vigilance. 3876. You mean that it requires a different ar- rangement of the boarding houses ? — Yes ; I think that when you have isolated the little boys they re- quire more superintendence, 3877. And that this inconvenience ^yould not be done aw.ay by li-aving them scattered in other houses where there are bigger boys ? — No ; that was the old systeni, and we know that did not answer. 3878. So that whatever arrangement miglit be made, whether you kept them separate or not, there would still be an ol>jection to having a number of very little boys in the lower school ? — Yes. 3879. {Lord Lytteltoti.) It is rather a new experi- ment, is it not ? — Yes. 8880. {Sir S. Northcole.) You mentioned 10 or 11 as the pioper age for entering the lower school ? — I mentioned no age for entering the lower school. The question was not asked. PUBLIC SCHOOLS COMMISSION: — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 12D 3881. How soon would you put a boy to Eton at all ? — They mar come as early as five. 3882. I think the eflect of your opinion is that boys ought to come prepared to go into the upper school at once ? — Yes. 3883. Aud you would not desire, if it could be managed, to have a lower school at all for the boys ? — It is a very cheap education, and a very good one ; but I think that bringing a multitude of little boys togctlier is open to some objection. 3881. {Lord Lyttelton.) They play with each other ? — Yes. 388o. {Sir S. Xorthcote.) They are evidently a distinct class of boys ? — Yes. 38S6. And the lower school has been found useful to send little boj-s to, because older boys come badly prepared, and sometimes are not lit to take their places in the fourth form ? — Yes. 3887. Of course you consider it undesirable that any boys of 12 or 13 should come unprepared, but that you cannot help. Do you think it desirable for that class of boys that the lower school should exist as the best thing for them ? — The question is, what is to' become of them. There is many a boy who comes to Eton, who has never been ))roperly prepared, and whose parents wish him to have au education at Eton ; he is, however, unfit to enter the upper school, and what is to become of him if there is uo lower school for him to go into ? It would be extremely liaid to reject him altogether, aud it would be equally Lard on the upper school to take him in such a state as that in which he comes. 3888. It would be clearly a mischievous thing to put such boys upon the fourth form ? — It would be mischievous, although it might be done in this way T — to have a remove, which should be kept down ; perhaps, however, to keep them in the lower school stimulates them more. 3889. Do you not think it is a stimulus to a well- disposed boy which induces him to try to raise him- self to such a position that he can be admitted to the upper school. Mr. Coleridge alluded to the case of a boy of 17, whom he mentioned as having come rather late in life and having been placed in the lower school ; and Mr. Coleridge said he thought a great boy like him ought to try to get out of the lower school as quicklj' as he could, and the boy exerted himself in consequence of that advice, passed through the school with great credit, and has now matriculated iu Balliol. Do you think that a sort of character that you might reasonably expect a good many boys, whose education has been unfortunately neglected, to take ? — I think it is, I do not see any reason why they should not, 3890. And for that class of boys the lower school would be very useful ? — Yes. 3891. Is there any reason why boys of that class should not be mixed up with the other boys in boarding houses ? — No ; and they probably would — they cer- tainly would — for it is only boys of a certain age who are sent to Mr. Hav.'trey's. He does not keep them after they attain a certain age, but it does not follow that because a boy fails in examination he necessarily goes to Mr. Hawtrey's. 3892. Do you think it is an evil that boys of that class should be mixed up in school with little boys of nine or ten years of age, or do you think it stimu- lates them, seeing themselves placed in a school in which the boys are so much under their own age, to do what they can to try to get out of it ? — I think the mixture of ages is certainly an evil. 3893. The mixture of ages is an evil ? — Yes. 3894. You would not give up the lower school as a place for the unprepared boys who come ? — No ; because as I said just now, what is to become of them. 3895. {Mr. Vaiighan.) With regard to the back- ward boys who come to Eton, I suppose there are among them clever boys whose backwardness is at- tributable mainly to neglect ? — Yes, there are certainly some of that kind. I. 10 July 186i. 3896. With regard to those clever boys who owe ETON. their backwardness sim])ly to previous neglect in tlieir education, do you observe that when they get Uev. to Eton they rapidly make up for lost time, and pass F.E.Durnford, more quickly through the lower part of the school than boysof a lesser age? — Yes, they have the op- portunity of getting a double remove, and are lifted up as it were. 3897. Docs that frequently happen ? — Yes. 3898. Docs it happen to such a degree that you ever find a boy who came there a backward boy, and who yet at the age of 16 or 17 has occupied a posi- sition very nearly equal to the position occupied by those boys who came better prepared, and have had better places given to them at an earlier age ? — Such cases have occurred. 3899. {Lord Clarendon.') I need hardly ask you whether you think the tutorial system one of special benefit ? — In my answers I s.ay that I think it a very great advantage. A boy loves his tutor, as a general rule, very much. 3900. Do you consider that the tutor stands, with respect to his pupils, iu the position not only of his instructor, but of his adviser and fiiend ? — Yes, they do not hesitate to come and ask you any question, because they know you would not take a mean advantage of them. They come to you as their counsellor and guide. 3901. Then there does exist, in point of fact, a real confidence ? — Yes. 3902. You think, for instance, that all your pupil;? have that feeliug towards you ? — Yes, I do uot think that any of them would do anj-thing to vex me, nor would they have any hesitation in asking me any questions. They would speak to me in a perfectly unreserved manner with respect to any point on which they wished to consult me. 3903. Or if they get into any scrape, say with their schoolmaster or any one else, would they come to their tutor as a friend to whom they would apply in distress and difficulty ? — Yes. 3904. In point of fact he would stand towards the pupil in loco parentis iu every respect ? — Yes, I think so. 3905. Jlay I ask how many pupils you have, Mr. Durnford ? — Sixty. 3906. Every pupil construes his lesson to you before he goes into school ? — They construe their lessons in class, I usually call on four for each lesson, 3907. I thought I understood from your auswer that every lesson was construed by the boy before he goes into school ? — I do not mean by that that each boy construes his lesson individually to me. 3908. You have them in class before they go into school. — Yes. 3909. And many of them you hear over again in school, do you not ? — Very few. In point of fact I have only one at present under me iu school. 3910. You say here, " I calculate that my fourth " form are with me about 27 hours per week ; my fifth " form about 10 hours per week" — that would be 37 hours — "my sixth form about five hours per week, " (sometimes many more the latter)." That would make 42 hours a week, which would give you some- thing like seven hours a d.ay. How do you manage with so many as 60 boys. I suppose that many of these are your private pupils besides ; I mean those who pay 20 guineas a year ? — Yes, all those boys who board in my house are considered, necessarily, as private pupils. 3911. {Lord Li/ttelton.) They all pay 20 guineas in the house ? — Each boy in the house pays 120/., and out of that I fancy 20/. is for tuition. I suppose that is the way it was intended to be. 3912. {Lord Clarendon.) Is there not any dis- tinction between pupils and private pupils ? — Yes. 3913. Your pupil pays 10 guineas, aud your private pupil pays 10 guineas extra ? — Yes. 3914. And has a certain amount of instruction provided by you for that additional 10 guineas ? — I do not profess to give instruction exactly according B ISO PUBLIC SCHOOLS COMMISSION : — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. ETON. liev. F.E.Duinford. 10 July 1802. to what I receive ; I give my pupils private tuition in this way : I divide all the pupils into so many classes for private tuition, and then I am certain that every one has the advantage. 3915. How many are there who pay 10 guineas ? — Most of the lower boys not in ray house. 3916. {Lord Lyttellon.) How many pupils are there in your house ? — Thirty-five. 3917. And 25 out ? — Yes. 3918. Of these 25 out of the house how many pay 10 guineas and how many pay 20 guineas ? — Ten of them pay 10 guineas, and 15 of them pay 20 guineas. 3919. Do you make any distinction between the amount of teaching which you give to the two classes ? — No. 3920. In fact, it is only a remission in con- sider.alion of the comparative poverty of a portion of the boys ? — Yes, that is really the theory, but in point of practice I .should not think of asking any- thing with respect to the circumstances of the parents. 3921. The lower boys all pay 10 guineas? — The majority of the lower boys pay 10 guineas. 3922. Is it the distinction that the lower boys pay the lower amount and the upper boys pay the higher ? — I should think so. 3923. In the house they are all alike ? — Yes. 3924. {Mr. Thompson.) How far do the lower boys reach ? — To the remove. 3925. Which is above the fourth form ? — Yes. 3926. {Mr. Vaughan.) Let me ask you, with re- gard to the boys in your house, who are the lower boys in your present definition of the term. Do they pay less than 120/. ? — No, every boy pays 120/. 3927. Do these boys, although lower boys in 3-our house, pay the same for private tuition as the boys above them ? — I do not make any difference ; they all pay the same ; and I divide my pupils for private business into so many classes. 3928. I am speaking of the amount of payment. They all pay 120/. ?— Yes. 3929. {Mr. T/wnipsoti.) What is the nature of the private business ? Is it the work that does not enter into the school routine ? — Yes, for instance, take the Sunday work. I divide my boys into four sets. I make the lower part say their Catechism and read the lessons of the day. With respect to the remove, I give them an essay to write on the Old Testament History. I make the other forms construe the Greek Testament. On week days I take the fourth form, the lowest form, and make them do some questions in Roman history. I make the remove do some Sallust ; the fifth form also have their work. The upper boys read Thucydides, Aristophanes, and per- haps some Greek tragedy, or in addition to the Greek play they may do some composition. 3930. With respect to the upper part of the fifth form, what do they do ? — I make them do Greek iambics or Greek prose, just as I like. .^ 3931. In the course of one-third of the year how many Gi-eek pl.ays will the fifth form do ? — About tliree Greek plays in the year. 3932. Besides Latin ? — Yes, besides Latin ; and many now read Cicero. 3933. Would they do Greek prose as well ; De- mosthenes, and authors of that description ? Yes. 3934. Would they get through as much .as a book of Thucydides and three Greek plays in the course of a year ? — No, but they would do something equi- valent to three Greek plays. 3935. {Mr. Vaughan ) You have spoken of the upper fifth in your answer to Mr. Thompson. Do you mean by them to signify that intitled in the Tables part of the upper fifth form, or the 32 boys described as the upper fifth, or do you mean the boys in the third and fourth divisions of the school ? —Are you speaking of my own division ; the division I have in the school ? 3936. No, I am not speaking of your division in mentioned certain pupils in the the school. You upper fifth form. Do you mean by these pupils, the pupils in that class described here as division the second in the school, or do you mean something below that ? — Division the second in the school. 3937. With regard to boys below that division including the whole of the fifth form, excepting division number 2, do you make a distinction in the private work of these boys, or have they all the same private work to do ? — I make a distinction in this, that they perhaps have more composition to do. , 3938. But do they read the same authors ? — Yes. ' 3939. Do they in the private work ? — I divide them as nearly as I can into sets of 12. Sometimes I might have even still less. I put them according to their capacity. 3940. I was asking you, whether they do the same work ? — Yes, they do the same work. 3941. {Lord Clarendon.) You say the lower boys construe the same lessons twice over with you. You take the fourth form, 27 hours ; the fifth form, 10 hours a week, and so on. Does that include the pri- vate work, or is it exclusive of that ? — That will be exclusive. Do you mean the hours ? 3942. Just read this paragraph. " Every lesson " is construed by the pupil to me before he goes into " school. With the lower boys and lower fifth form " every lesson is construed twice over, and carefully " parsed. I calculate that my fourth form are with " me about 27 hours per week ; my fifth form about " 10 hours per week ; my sixth form about 5 hours " per week (sometimes many more the latter)." Is that exclusive of the private work ? — Yes, that would be exclusive of the private work. 3943. What is the exact nature of the private business as distinguished from the school business ? — Tlie public business is that which is repeated in school. The private business is that which the tutor gives to the boys. 3944. {Lord T^yttelton.) It is very much in refer- ence to the Newcastle scholorship, is it not ? — Yes. 3945. {I^ord Clarendon.) It docs not form the subject of the examination ? — No. 3946. {Lord Devon.) As far as you know, is it the course of all the tutors to make no reference to the time which they devote to their pupils in conse- quence of the distinction which you have referred to in respect to the payments. Do they make any distinction between those who pay 10 guineas and those who pay 20 guineas a year, or do they pursue the same system that you did ? — I think the same system prevails among the other masters. 3947. You think that, generally speaking, no dis- tinction exists ? — It depends upon their individual habits ; but I think, generally, the same system is pursued. 3948. That has always been the case with you ? — Always the case with me. 3949. Then all the pupils in your house are pri- vate pupils ? — They must necessarily be so. I under- stood the idea of their paying 120/. a year was that they should pay 100/. for their board and 20/. for tuition. 3950. Is the amount charged by each master at Eton fixed by the higher authorities, or by himself? — By the higher authorities. They cannot charge more than that sum. 3951. {T^ord LyUelton.) Will you tell us the number of hours you are at work in the day ? — I cannot always get out in winter, but I generally allow myself about an hour and a quarter a day for exercise. 3952. And you work all the rest of the day ? — Yes. 3953. With regard to the periodical reports, do you fill up any form to be sent to the parents ? — No. 3954. Do you write to all the parents ? — I used to do so once a month, but I have given that system up of late. We are constantly working. Supposing a boy does anything that it is necessarj' to write a))0ul, I write and tell his parents. 3955. With regard to the ordinary report of the boy's character, do you write fully about that ? — Yes. PUBLIC SCHOUS COSIillSSlON : —MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 131 89o6. Do you tliink you are well acquainted -with the charactor of uU these boys sufficiently to enable you to do that ? — Yes. 3957. You do not find it too much of a strain upon vou ? — I should be glad of course to be relieved to some extent, but where the demand is great I am obliged to endeavour to meet it. 3958. You do not feel that they are too many to attend to ? — No. I do not think that any of them are neglected, but it would be a relief to me indi- vidually not to have so many. 3959. {Sir S. Northcote.) Just let me ask, with reference to the private business, do you give any prizes for private business, or any reward for doing the work well ? — No. 3960. Do you not give private holiday tasks ? — No ; I never do. I think if a boy works well at Jiton it is better he should have his holidays. 3961. Do you think it is a system that is pursued at Eton by other masters ? — No. Of course the upper boys have holiday-tasks set by the school. 3962. Have the lower boys any holiday-tasks ? — Not appointed by authority. 3963. And tlie sixth form boys ? — Yes, they have. 3964. {Mr. Vaufjhan.) You say with regard to the private work, that you do not divide your pupils into forms, but divide them into several sets, doing all the same work with regard to the private. busi- ness ? — I divide them into several sets, and give them a separate book. One would be reading Alcestis, finother would be reading the first book of Thucy- dides, and so on. 3965. With regard to the boys in the fifth form, about 300 in number, I understand that in your private business 3'ou do not give them different work but arrange them into some sets, according to pro- ficiency? — I am afraid we have been at cross purposes. 3966. I am speaking of private business ? — In pri- vate business I class them entirely according to their position in the school. 3967. But I am asking whether the private busi- ness of some of the boys in this form or this division is different from the private business of other boys ? —Yes. 3968. Different books, different construing, and different compositions are set ? — Yes. 3969. That being the case, do you divide with re- gard to the class business these boys into different sets ? I am not now speaking of private business, but simply of the construing work, and the composi- tion which they do in form ? — Tliej' come to my room according to their position in the school. 3970. In separate sets ? — In separate sets. They do not all come together. 3971. In how many sets? — For construing the fourth form in one, the fifth form in two. 3972. Is your mode of treating the books different or much the same ? — Yes, it is much the same. The upper boys come and construe what they do in school, — ^Pindar, Tacitus, and other authors. 3973. For what purpose do you divide them ? — To suit the arrangements in the school. 3974. What, if they do the same work ? — Those who do the same work do come together. 3975. Then, as I understand, those boys all do the same work in the third, fourth, fifth, sixth, seventh, eighth, and ninth divisions — they all do the same class work ? — That is in school. 3976. I am speaking simply of class work ? — Now I understand you. They go into school in different classes of not more than 40. 3977. I understood that they went to school in different classes ; but do they come before you to pre- pare themselves for the school work in different classes, or do they come together ? — In different classes. 3978. In how many classes ? — The fifth form come in one, the sixth form in another. 3979. With regard to the fifth, do they all come in one ? — Yes ; but the system being that if my boys ure not up to it, I construe the lesson twice over, I let the first division pass aw.ty, and then keep half back, and make them construe the lesson over .igain. 3980. Will the second division have been present wliile the first division have been construing ? — Yes. 3981. Then the construing of the first division would act as an instruction to the second ? — They would not be able to learn their lesson from it. 3982. I will not say then what might be the effect ; but, as a matter of fact, the second division do hear the construing of the first ? — Yes, but I am sure they could not do it only by hearing the first division con- strue. They construe it over again, and they have certain exercises to bring up. 3983. Let me put this question. Do you, thinking it right as you do to give those boys in the fifth form different work in their private business suited to their capacity, not think it would be an im- provement that they should have different work to do as class work, according to their different capa- cities ? — I do not think so. I think the time they are in form is not too much for the continuance of the same work, because the work is verj' like the work they have done before. The "Iliad " and "Odyssey " — these are the two staple works, and the boys cannot get through them under six years. 3984. In construing, in each lesson the head boy does the same as the lowest boy ; that is to say, the head boy in the top division of the fifth the same as the head boy in the third division, and both of them do exactly the same work as the lower boy in the ninth division ? — Yes. 3985. Do you think that is a good arrangement, seeing that they all do the same work, both in quantity and in kind ? — They do not get the same in quantity, nor the same books. Of late they have introduced Greek plays to be read by the third, fourth, and fifth divisions, and they also give them a longer lesson in Homer. 3986. How long has that alteration been made ? — About a year. 3987. It has been made, perhaps, since the time to which these returns apply ? — Is there anything about the Greek play being read in any part of the school by the third division ? No, I think there ought to be. I think it has been within tlie last year. 3988. Do you think that, in point of fact, an alter- ation has quite recently been made in this matter ? — No. 3989. To pass from the single subject of constru- ing : considering that every boy does to his tutor all the class work and also the private business besido that class work, to what kind of instruction do you think the boy owes most of his classical education, to the tutorial instruction or to his work in class, taking into consideration the class work before the tutor and the private work before the tutor in addition to that class work on the one hand, and on the other hand the class work to the master ? — He owes most to his scho(> ]work, certainly. 3990. To his work in form ?— Yes. 3991. Will you have the goodness to explain how that is ? — His work in form embraces all his compo- sitions in school, all his verses, and all his compositions in themes. 3992. Does not that also go before the tutor ? — Yes. 3993. And does not the tutor take the chief part in that ? — Yes, 3994. Considering that his construing work ia class, his composition work in class, and the private work in addition to that is all done by the tutor, do you think he owes what classical instruction he may receive more to his instruction in class than to his instruction by his private tutor ? — Now I see what you mean. You are separating the two cases. What you want to know is, whether I think it depends more on the teaching by the tutor than by the master in class ? 3995. Yes : from whom, on the whole, he receives most of his instruction. On whom does he depend most in his progress through the school ? — That is rather a difficult question to answer. B 2 ETON. licv. FM.DurnfcrJ. 10 July 18G2. 132 PUBLIC SCHOOLS COMMISSION: — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. iiTON. liev. F.E.Durnforil. 10 July 18G2. 3996. (Lord Lyttelton.) We wish to obtain your opinion upon that point ? — I think, generally speaking, that the boy who gets on witli his tutor best is the best boy in the scliool. 3997. But in what capacity does the master do most. In the capacity of a private tutor ? — I sup- pose he does. Ou tlie wliole, tlie teaching we get in the upper part of the school, I should e handed over ? — Yes ; in some cases the person who holds the house holds it directly from the Col- lege, in other cases the lessee may reside a long way oft", and h.ave the power of sub-letting. 4072. What would be the nature of the struggle between him and the head Master ? — I do not know ; that has not yet come on. 4073. {Sir S. Northcote.) In this case the pro- mise of the Head Master would hardly come into operation, because he says the mathematical masters are to have the dames' houses when they fall vacant ; but in this particular case of a long lease can the house he considered vacant and be given in that ■wjiy ? — It could if the present dame, being the sub- lessee, were to go away. 4074. It would go to the lessee, and he is not concerned in the teaching of the school ? — lie has nothing to do with the College. 4075. It will be held that the contingency of a vacancy has not arisen ? — Perhaps. Many of the houses are held at Eton for leases of considerably! length, renewable every twenty years, a fiue being payable to the College. Some of the houses have been very good bargains for the people who took them, but the bargain has been a very b.ad one for the College. 4076. {Lord Clarendon.) The leases qf these houses have been renewed on fines ? — Yes, I believe so. 4077. {Mr. Thompson.) They LMISSION :— MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 139 4184. Arc the collegers divided among the different gentlemen acting as nssistuut masters ? — Yes, by pri- vate arrangement. 4185. What is your view of the propriety of the payment by the boys of 10?. 10s. ? — I do not think that tlie College onght to be expected to do everytliing at once, nor do I wish to blame them, because they have contributed much to the advancement of the school, and I have no doubt that as soon as in their own eyes they can afford to do so they will knock otf that payment. 4186. {Lord Ly Hilton.) Is there any expectation of that l)eing done ? — I only speak of their finances fi-om such notions as I have formed as a King's man ; I have no precise knowledge . 4187. {Mr. Vaicgltan.) You have made some allusion to Rugby and Eton entering into a comparison between them under certain circumstances, do you consider that in defining the relations of the Head Master at Eton as j'ou have done you have been at all making a constitution for Eton like that of Rugby ? — No, I imagine that at Rugby there is a pure despotism, and the Head Master there can do exactly as ho likes. 4188. You do not think that the relation in which the Head Master stands towards the other masters at Rugby is a relation which you would wish to see esta- blished between the Head Master and the assistant masters at Eton ? — No. 4189. Is there any public school in which the Head Master stands at all in that relation to the assistant masters which you recommend ? — No ; the model I take for Eton is that of a college at Oxford or Camridgc, not a school. I say that because there is a college already at Eton. 4190. You would })lace them in the position of Fellows in a college ; quite different from the posi- tion which thcj' fill at Rugby ? — Yes, some of them. 4191. I do not apprehend, that as far as my ex- perience goes, that in an Oxford college the Fellows have anything to do with the education in college. They have a voice in the property Ijecause they are the owners of the propert}-. The College and Fellows are the owners of the property ; that is the legal definition of a college, and therefore in all matters of property they have a voice. But with regard to tuition and to the arrangements of the teaching of the college I do not think they have any voice whatever, it was not otherwise when I was tliere? — Perhaps I am mistaken. 4192. Again, with regard to the teaching, does not the analogy between a college at Oxford or Cambridge and a great public school also fail in this particular, that the college is practically I will not saj' coerced, but has its course with respect to education ex- tremely straightened by the curriculum of the uni- versity ? — Yes. 4193. What corresponding check is there upon the education that might be given in a great public school? — I should very much, perhaps it is a some- what off handed opinion that I am giving, but I should very much wish that the education given at Eton could be controlled with reference to the university. 4194. But every college in Oxford has to send its members within a given time to pass given ex- aminations, which they must go through to get a proper status in the university ; therefore the univer- sity really does control the education of the college ; is there any analogous power at present with refer- ence to the education given in a public school? — No, not so strictly and precisely as that certainly. If the Head Master wished to alter the system of examinations, I should like to see him checked and controlled by the College, who sliould say that how- ever the details may be altered the main principles shall be retained ; such for instance as the examina- tion of the boys once a year on papers in reference to certain subjects. 4195. That is to say on all great matters of edu- cation you woiild wish to see him controlled by the n'. Johnson, Esq. 10 July 1863. College ? — I should like to see him controlled, but of ETON, course he would be the leading man. 4196. Would not the control then virtually be, as you have framed your constitution, in his own assistant masters ? — Yes, but it would not be vesting them with the control of the Head Master in their indi- vidual characters as assistant masters but as a re- presentative body. 4197. You must be aware that in almost all other public schools, some of which are almost equally celebrated with Eton, there is no such check on the Head Miister ? — Not as that exercised by the Pro- vost. 4198. Not as that proposed to be exercised by the Under Masters ? — I do not propose to give the select tutors more power of checking the Head Master than the Provost has now. 4199. Would not your constitution, whatever may be its merits, or however well it might be found to work, be in some respects an untried constitution ? — No doubt. 4200. {Lord Lyttelton.') I understand you wish to retain the College with a new constitution. You would still have a college consisting of a Provost and Fellows. You wish to retain the same power over the Head Master that now exists ? — Yes, some- thing like it. 4201. I understand that you would wish to transfer the power from the Provost and Fellows, as they now exist, to the Provost and Fellows under your pi'oposed constitution, and also to retain the power in their hands which the present Provost and Fellows have over the Head Master ? — I have never spoken of tlie power held by the Provost and Fellows ; only of the power held by the Provost singly. 4202. With regard to the power which the Provost and Fellows have at present overthe Head INIaster, would you retain that ? — I hardly know what that power is, unless it is the power of dismissing him. 4203. In regard to the collegers, it is considerable, is it not ? — I am not aware. 4204. The Provost and Fellows have, practically, no authority, except in cases of punishment. Do I understand that you would make the Head Master absolute in th.at respect ? — I should wish that he should be absolute in matters of discipline, and that his proceedings should only be controlled by tho governing body of the college when they referred to general principles and to matters that would be regu- lated by a college at Oxford or Cambridge. I can quite understand, for instance, that it would require a college vote in order to sanction the introduction of a new study, such as German or Italian. 4205. Apart from this question of the Head Master you assume that it is necessary to maintain the col- lege in some form or other ? — Yes. 4206. Do you conceive that the Head Master could be safely entrusted with exercising the whole manage- ment of the school, there being no practical control over him ? — Yes, in details of discipline. 4207. I do not understand that your system would necessarily enlarge the power of the Head Master at all ? — Yes, I tliink it would. I cannot conceive that he would be limited as much by working col- leagues as by an idle Provost, or by a Provost who had been Head Master. 4208. Who would have the power of using the check which the Provost can bring to bear at present? How would you restrict the power of this Board; could you define in any way the power which they would have of interference t* — It is rather a diflicult thing to do off hand. I would not have them consulted by invitation as they are at present, but as a body of men having the right to be consulted. 4209. Would you give to this body the power of removing a Head Master ? — No. 4210. To whom would you give that power ? — I do not know ; that is rather a perplexing question. 421 1. Would you create a body of trustees for that purpose, or give the power of removal to the Crown ? — Perhaps to the Crown as visitor. S 2 140 PUBLIC SCHOOLS COIMISSION :— MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. ETON. TV. Johnson, Esq. 10 July 18C2. 4212. Then you would -wliolly do awny with the power of interl'erence with the Head Master, except in relation to great matters ? — Yes ; wliat I prac- tically wish is to make the Provostship as oruameutal an ofHce as possible. 4213. {Sir S. Korthcote.) But you would give to the Provost the nomination of the Head Master ? — No ; to the governinjT body, including the Provost. 4214. {Mr. Vaughan.) In speaking of the con- stitution of Rugbv, do you speak from hearsay ? — Yes. 4213. {Lord Lijttelton.) Did you spe«ify what amount of payment these six or eight tutors would have ?— Yes, between 200/. and 300/. a year. 4216. Do you think that would be a position the prospects of which would ofier considerable induce- ments to the junior masters ? — Yes, when added to power and position. 4217. {Mr. Vaughan.) You have referrele to give a title to orders to ? — I suppose, one at a time. He was the perpetual curate of a large parish, and whenever a curate was required he was able to give a title to orders. But that has all passed away. 4263. What is their position now? — It is improved, but they have nothing to marry on and keep an establishment, unless they can manage to get board- ing-houses. 4264. What is the present position of the mathe- matical master in the school ? — He is in direct com- munication with the Head Master, and the examina- tions are so strict that there is a great inducement for boys to leani. lie has, perhaps, 30 private pupils, which is tantamount to about 300/. a year, and he fonns friendships with his pupils in the same way that the classical masters do. 4265. How are the assistant mathematical masters appointed ? by the mathematical master ? — By the Plead Master, I am told. I think by the mathema- tical master's advice. 4266. He recommends the appointment to the Head Master ? — ^Yes, I think so. 4267. And his choice is generally confii-med, I presume, by the Head Master ? — Just so. 4268. Do they take boarders ? — Not all o-f them. One of our most effective teachei-s does not. Another of them has managed to get a house, but he tells the Commissioners in his evidence that he had great trouble in doing so. 4269. With respect to the status, the mathematical masters in the school arc not recognized or placed upon the same footing as the assistant classical mas- ters are ? — In some things they are, though not in others. It is always a question whether they are or are not to be consulted and invited to take part in any proceedings. 4270. In what resjieet do they occupy an inferior position in the school ? — For one thing they cannot occupy a good house, and for another they have not the same income as the assistant classical masters ; that is to say, their income cannot jxissibly rise to the level of the assistant classical master's income. They can hardly get a house at all, consequently they have to live for years in lodgings. The boys are not required to pay them any respect or obedience any- where but in school. They do not take part in what we designate calling absence ; that is, calling over the names of the boys, which is a very strong mark of authority. The Head Master commits to one of his assistant classical masters the authority of calling over the names of the boys, but to a mathematical master never. 4271. Is it not the fact that, until lately, the ma- thematical masters were not allowed U) wear gowns in chapel ? — Yes ; and even now the Fellows in re- sidence will take notice if any mathematical master presumes to take a seat in chapel before the assistant classical master. The classical master has precedence and the right to retain seats in the chapel, which the mathematical master has not ; that distinction still obtains. 4272. (Mr. Thompson.) Even if the mathematical assistant master happens to have a higher university degree than the assistant classical master ? — I do not think that the degree makes any difference. 4273. Do you think that the want of authority and position in the school not only lowers the posi- tion of the assistant mathematical masters, but that the knowledge of the absence of that respect acts on the lx)ys minds, and induces them not only to dis- regard the masters, but to pay no respect to the studies which those masters teach ? — That certainly is the impression which I wish to convey. 4274. The mathematical masters are not looked up to by the boys ? — Not so much as they should be. The boys respect those teachers most who can help them most, and the boys who are zealously learning mathematics respect their mathematical masters suf- ficiently ; but they do not look upon them in the same light that they look ujion the assistant classical masters. 4275. The authorities, so far as the matter depends upon them, seem to throw cold water on the study ? — I think the study is fairly represented in the ex- aminations of the school, but I think the authorities wish the men to be employed simply for the jmrpose of teaching mathematics and nothing else. They do not wish them to take any part in the discipline or the general affairs of the school. 4276. In your opinion, that feeling and mode of acting on the part of the superior authorities would tend to keep away the best men ? — Yes, it keeps away the best men, or if they come they do not stay ; a man may come and consent to fill an inferior appointment for the purpose of getting a subsequent one, for it is a feather in his cap to have been a ma- thematical master at Eton. 4277. Can you explain the reason of this. It seems to me incomprehensible. These gentlemen devote themselves very ardently to their work ? — I can only explain it by saying that this is a class of men that was never contemplated originally, but who ha^e gradually crept in in consequence of the enlargement of the system, and they have been regarded with more or less jealousy by the authorities. 4278. There would not be the same objection to a King's man taking a mathematical assistant master- ship ? — No, they ask them to come, but they will not. That is most clearly manifested. 4279. {Lord Clarendon.) What is clearly mani- fested ? — That if a King's man, who had taken a high mathematical degree, is asked to fill the situa- tion of assistant mathematical master at Eton, he will not take it ; he says, " Why should I, I am eligible as an assistant classical master." 4280. {Sir S. Northcote.) Are there not any King's men among the assistant mathematical mas- ters ? — Not one ; King's men have refused. 4281. {Lord Lyttelton.) With regard to the placing of the boys, is it not the case that after the examina- tion, a boy who did very well in the classics and very little in mathematics, would appear below a boy who did fairly well in both ? — Not often ; I think it might happen. 4282. The suggestion was that great excellence in either branch, supposing there was the necessary amount of attainment in one, should a[)pear con- spicuously in the result of all the examinations, whereas now there must be a certain point of attain* PUBLIC SCHOOLS COMSIISSION : — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 143 mcut ill both ? — My own pupils luiiko no complaint at all about uiatlioniatics being made too much or too little of. 4283. The boys have acquiesced in it ? — Yes ; they believe the examination to be perfectly lionest. 4284. (Sir S. Northcote.) Do you think it would be advisable that the mathematical masters should be allowed to take private pupils in the same way as the classical masters are, and to deal with them in all iliatters precisely in the same manner, that is with respect to the religious teaching and so on ? — I think that they ought to be allowed to take boarding-houses exactly on the same principles that the assistant classical masters take them ; but the question really is could they fill them. I would not allow them to take houses at a lower rate of payment than is given by the classical master. I do not mean to re- couunend anything that might do them harm, but perhaps it might do them harm to sa}' that they ought not to take a house at a lower rate of payment. 4285. The boy would be still obliged to have a classical tutor, would he not ? — So long as you main- tain the present system by which the exercises must be looked over by a classical tutor. I would not give up that. 4286. Then what he would have to pay the board- ijig-housc master would be in addition to his pay- ment to the classical tutor ? — Yes, you would have to take off that 10/. 10.«. 4287. And after taking off that, you say the terms should be the same ? — Yes. 4288. You would, in fact, deduct whatever sum was charged by the classical tutor for tuition ? — Yes. 4289. Would there be any objection to the boys in the mathematical masters' houses being constantly the private pupils of the master in whose houses they were for Sunday teaching ? — Not the least. Indeed I should say that it would be in many cases possible to have mathematical teachers, who were also classical men, enough to guide classical students, and to do everything, in point of fact, but look over their exercises. No man, of course, would do that in ad- dition to his other duties, but we could get what I may call double men, that is to suy, the same men who were good in mathenjatics as well as classics. 4290. {Lord Devon.) Men who were good in both ? — Yes, in classics as well as mathematics, and who would command the respect of the pupils. Such men could be easily obtained. 4291. Yon refer in your contemplated reconstruc- tion of the college to the great advantage which would result from having rooms in which all the assistant masters of the school might have an opportunity of meeting as on common ground and associating toge- ther ; may I ask whether there is at present any reading-room or librarj' ? — Nothing of the kind at all. 4292. Nothing in the nature of a common room ?— No. 4293. How are the mathematical assistants looked on by the classical assistant masters. You spoke of the way in which they were regarded by the Fellows, and in a certain degree of the estimation in which they are held by the boys, in what manner are they looked upon by the assistant classical masters ? — I associate with some of them who are of my own age, but generally speaking, they are much younger than I am. I cannot associate equally with all of them. Some of my friends also associate with them, Imt men in lodgings cannot give parties, and without giving parties there is no way of meeting. Wo walk together and we ride together in the same way as with other masters. 4294. You find that, generally speaking, among the elder ones ? — Yes, we are more likely to associate with men who have been some time in the place ; but I think you would find, perhaps, in almost eveiy assistant classical master an undue jealousy of the mathematical assistant master's interfering with the pupil's time. Every one of them claims the right to dispose of the pupil's time, and to give the mathe- matical master only the leavings, if I may say so. 4295. (Ml-. Thompson.) IIow many of the boys have private mathematical tutors? — Of my own pupils at the present time there are about 7 out of the 43 who are the private pui)ils of mathematical masters. 4296. And they pay 10/. 10*. a year ? — Yes. 4297. How much teaching do they get for that ? Almost as much as they like. The mathematical masters, generally speaking, trust to the boys' own sense of honour to go to them when they have time. 4298. In the other cases where they only pay 4/. As. a year, is there any regular tariff of instruc- tion. How many hours a week do they get for that? —They are obliged to go three times a week, and they are an hour each time. In addition to that there is the showing up of their exercises, which take them each time upon the average about three-quarters of an hour. 4299. Do those of the boys who have only that amount of mathematical instruction make satisfac- tory progress ? — Some of them do, but I am not so good a judge upon that point as upon some others, perhaps. 4300. But the majority of those boys who are likely to excel, or who wish to excel in mathematics, find it necessary to have a private tutor ? — I do not know whether the majority do or not. At this moment I have four boys going in for honorary examinations, only one of whom has had any private instruction, and he licgan since the commencement of 1860. The other three have all worked by themselves, and they will do very Avell. I believe that the boys can do extremely well in mathematics without any private instruction. 4301. Would it not be rather an «vil if the prac- tice were universal, and that boys, in. addition to paying 20 guineas to their classical tutor, had to pay also 10 guineas to the mathematical master in addi- tion to the ordinary 4/. 4*. charged in the school for mathematical instruction? — The reasonable thing would be that if a lioy wore doing extra mathematical lessons, and therefore doing less classics, he should pay his classical tutor less. 4302. It would be difficult to persuade the classical tutors of the advisability of the mathematical assist- ants taking any portion of the classical work ? — Yes; that would not be a very easy thing to mimage ; the truth is that the private business has grown up and become so profitable that strong objections would be raised to anything that would be likely to interfere with it. Originally no such thing as private instruc- tion was contemplated or given. 4303. {Sir S. Northcote.) Can you give us any explanation of how this sum of 20 guineas a year came to be paid for private instruction ? — I can only give you an historical explanation of it. In the early part of the century, when there were a great number of pupils in the school, and very few masters, the assis- tant masters were only required to help them in con- struing their lessons for school, and in comparing and looking over their exercises. There were no Sunday instruction or extra reading at all, except for indi- vidual boys. We read in the Life of Lord Metcalfe that when he was at Eton he read extra lessons in Xenophon with his tutor, who was paid, I suppose, 10 guineas a year for that extra teaching. Vvlien it liegan to be seen that boys were required to be taught Attic Greek as well as Homeric Greek it was found not only necessary to teach one or two, such as Lord Metcalfe, but the whole of the upper classes, in matters which the school did not then teach, such as writing Greek iambics, and so on, consequently there grew up a class of private business, and extra lessons. It is not voluntary or, strictly speaking, private teaching, but still it is not what you would call the tutor's regular work ; it is something in addition to the school work, and it was, generally speaking, thought that a boy ought to begin learning it when he got into the fifth form. Then men began to see that tliere was no reason why they should not give all the boys religious instruction on Sundays. whether they paid 20 guineas or 10. I was, myself, S 4 ETON. W. Ju/tnsun, 10 July 1SC2. 144 PUBLIC SCHOOLS COSOirSSION";— MINTJTES OF EVIDENCE. ETON, IV, Juhnson Esq. XO July 1862. at Eton for three years withont j^etting any rcligfous teaching, but afterwards I had that advantage ; and when I eame to join the class which read Greek plays with my tntor, I had to pay 10 guineas extra. I should compel all the pupHs to do what I considered was for their goo^l. I never wake any distinction between them. 4304. {L(»-d Chirntdon.) Do all your pupils pay these 20 guineas ? — No, not aH my oppidan pupils. 430.5. ( Lord Lyttdlon.) Why do they not ? — I simply fc.we it to the parents. I do not know why Sir S. Northcote pays 20 guineas for his boy. I take simply what is given to me. I do rwt receive any directions as to the private tuition or extra pay- ment from the parents. I leave that to the dame to settle with the parents. I make no charge whatever, but simply receive what is paid to me. 4306. (Lord Ciairndon.) You remain in a state of ignorance why Sir S. Northcote pays you 20 guineas instead of 10 ? — I can only suppose that he thinks as I think, 10 guineas an inadequate remuneration. If I sent my son to Eton I should not think of paying only 10 guineas. 4307. The boys all learn alike, do they not, those who pay 10 and those who pay 20 guineas ? — Yes. What they 1-earn varies only with their own powers. 4308. But there is no- distinction made by the tutor between those vrho pay 10 and those who pay 20 guineas ? — No, I teach collegers much more than I do oppidans because they are more studious. I have several oppidan pupils from whom I receive 10/. 10*. a year. 4309. {Mr. Thompson.) It there any claim on you .is a master to teach the collegers more than the oppi- (lans? — None. I can easily understand why the College should insist upon no colleger paying more than 10 guineas, but I cannot see that it is at all equitable. 4310. It is not equitable according to yonr view of the case ? — It is not ecjuitable that the master should be obliged to give additional time and trouble to boys who pay only 10 guineas. 4311. I suppose therefore that the oppidans vir- tually pay for the education of the eollegers ? — I suppose they do. 4312. {Lord Lyttelton.') Supposing the generrtl system of the school and the traditions of the school in favour of the preponderance of the classics to remain, should you feel any apprehension that the existence of that preponderance of the classics would have the effect of preventing the mathematical masters being put, as far as they can Ije put, on the same footing with the assistant classical masters ? — I think there will be difficulties. I should like to see them both put exactly on the same footing. I would throw open the houses to them ; but I do not think you would get any number of matliematieal mastei^s who would be able to fill the houses. 4313. Why not ? — Because I conceive that the ^eat majority of the boys would prefer the assistant classical mastei"s, and would consequently go to them. 4314. {Sir S. Narthcole.) Unless a boy was in- tended for Woolwich, I presume ? — Yes. 4315. {Lord Clarendon.) There is a statement of yours of some impo-rtance, with respect to wliich I think we have had rather different evidence, and that is with regard to there being advantages common to other boys from which the scholars are excluded. You say, " Being asked whether there are any ad- " vantages common to the other boys from which the " scholare are excluded, I reply that they are ex- " eluded from the chief good of an Eton education, " social intercourse with the great body of their " schoolfellows." I think it is the general opinion that there is no gi-eat social difference between the boys except in those six>rts, which would entail con- siderable expense, and which is rather the cause of the line being drawn. Do you consider that there is a great difference in their social positions ? — Yes, I :think very great. 4316. lu what manner is that difference exhibited? — They do not associate together. You do not see them walking together. They do not go to each other's rooms. They join in the highest games in the school, that is to say in the first cricket club and ia the first foot-ball club, on some days ; but in the other clubs a sepai-ation is made, and even in the first foot- ball club one day they play a mixed game in which both oppidans and eollegers take part ; another day the oppidans play together, and another day the collegers. They do not mix freely in foot-ball. 4317. {Lord Lyttelton.) But in the mixed game there is no difference ? — The distinction between them is not forgotten, there is only one cricket club in which they can mix. 4318. We have been told that the collegers are the principal members cff the debating society ? — No } there are very few of them in it at all ; they never hold office in it ; they are often elected into it as good foot-ball players, just before the match whicli the society pLays with the school. 4319. Are they also iibie to make- up a good foot- ball match with the rest of the school ? — Yes. 4320. Does the fact of their belonging to that debating society put them into a new category ? — Yes, quite a different one. 4321. {Mr. Vaughan.) Is it not rather a small football ctab which the collegers can mruster ? If they played two sides would not that be much smaller than the average ? — No ; they play 10 or 12 boys on each side, and that is quite enough. 4322. Do they prefer playing in that w.ay ? — Yes. 4323. {Lm-d Clarendon.) With reference to the dress of the collegers and the practice of wearing go^vns, which keeps up the distinction between them and the oppidans, do you think it would be popular or othenvise with the collegers to give up the wear- ing of these gowns ? — I think they would be glad to get rid of them on the whole, but I do not think that they are the best judges upon that point. I should nither ask those who have had time to reflect on the matter. I do not think the boys are the best judges as to whether it would be advantageous to tkem to give up the gowns or not. 4324. What is your o^^"n notion with regard to that point ? — I am strongly in favour of giving them up. I think the effect of then- wearing govvais is, that when an oppidan comes to school aud sees a strange-looking fellow in the street with one of these gowns on, he does not believe he is a schoolfellow of his or belongs to the same college at all. 4325. You say that the oppidans do not recognize the collegers as schoolfellows, do you think that they recognize them as playfellows ? — Tliey admit that they are schoolfellows, but they do not feet them to be playfellows. I know they do not like bathing in the same places with them. 4326. Have they another bathing place ? — No. They used to boat separately. 4327. Do they ever pull in the same boats now ? — Never in the fours and eights ; but they did begin, the other day, a sweepstakes in which the oppidans and collegers both joined. When a musical society ■was formed the other day, one had to take care that the collegers should join it, and so with regard to the volunteer corps. 4328. What was the object of the musical society ? — It is a voluntary society for getting up concerts and so on. 4329. Have the masters anything to do wiih it ? Some tavf of them. 4330. {Lord Devon.) Do you observe any change in the collegers since the system of admission by competition came into operation ? — I should say that, a great part of the collegers are now far superior to what the collegere were formerly, and they are cou- sequently looked upon with far less aversion by the oppid.ans. The great bulk of them are now looked on with respect, being much more gentlemanly boys, and much better bred than they were formerly. 4331. {Lord Lyttelton.) Do you think there is any increased desii'e on the part of the oppidans to keep PUBLIC SCHOOLS COMMISSION: — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 143 up the social distinction between themselves and the collegers with respect to joining in the games ? — No, I do not think there is. 4332. (^/> iS. Nortkcote.) Do you think that any measures could be taken which would abolish the distinction which you say now exists ? — I think the abolition of the gown and of the separate foot-ball and cricket clubs would go a great way in that direction. 4333. Do you mean to say that you would prohibit the formation of these separate clubs ? — Certainly. 4334. ( Lord Clarendon.) By authority ? — Yes. 433.5. {Lord Devon.) Will you allow me to ask what you specially refer to when in the last sentence of page 60 you say — " I would advise that when the " college increases the number of scholars, or adds " to them exhibitioners, the new scholarships or the " exhibitions should be held by boys residing in the " same boarding houses as oppidans." Supposing the number of scholars is increased from 70 to 80, do you contemplate that the whole 70 should live in the long chamber, and the other ten should live in the boarding houses ? — Yes. 4336. Which should you think most desirable, to create new scholarships at Eton or exhibitions for the oppidans ? — Do you mean to be held whilst the boys are at the school ? 4337. Yes, whilst the boys are at the school ? — It is much the same thing. Oppidans are allowed to compete for the scholarships as they stand now, but they will not do so. They would compete if they could hold them without going Into the building. 4338. A scholarship could be so far separated from the college that it might be an exhibition to be held by an oppidan ? — Yes. , 4339. You would not associate these scholars in any otlier way with the collegers than simply that the funds by which they are supported should be derived from the same source ? — No ; but when I speak of an exhibition for oppidans, I mean a very different thing. 4340. What do you mean by exhibitioner in your written evidence ? — I mean in the passage just quoted exhibitioners similar to the Winchester exhibitioners, merely receiving aid from the college, and not residing in the college buildings. 4341. You do not refer to exhibitions which they might take with them to Oxford or Cambridge ? — No, not in that passage. 4342. {Mr. Vaughan.') Are those points of differ- ence which you have mentioned as existing and marking the distinction between collegers and oppi- dans such as the foot ball club and cricket club tra- ditional ditferences which existed before the changes that have been made in respect to open scholar- shij)s. Are the diflerences with regard to them tradi- tional ? — Yes. 4343. In institutions of a more recent date are the same distinctions preserved ? — I think they are. 4344. How lately have they been asserted ? — The difference was rather remarkably shown the other day, when the musical society was formed by the oppidans themselves. They never thought of asking any col- legers to be on the committee, which was rather a remarkable fact, considering that the collegers were in the habit of studying music, and would have been very valuable members. 4345. Should you say, on the whole, that the separation which exists between the two classes is rather a relic of something that is slowly going out, but has still a root in the present state of society at Eton ? — Certainly, it still has a strong root. 4346. With regard to the scholarships, is there not a difficulty in oppidans or .iny boys obtaining scholar- ships after they have passed what may be called tender years ? — The difficulty is that of unwillingness. 4347. As I understand the principle on which the competition is decided, there is a difficulty arising out of that ; that is to say, that the boys, as they advance in years, have a much greater difficulty in succeeding against a boy of tender years. Are you aware of that circumstance ? — I believe it is easier to be elected i. a scholar of the college under the age of 12 than over it. 4348. It is very much easier, accoiding to the im- pression I derive from the statementti of one of the witnesses ? — I think the real reason why the oppidans are not elected is, that they will not work for it. When a boy comes to see the disadvantages of a colleger's position, he will not work for it, but will be idle on purpose to avoid it. 4349. You have mentioned one physical difference between the two classes their treatment and their diet. Do you still consider that that is of importance ? — I think it is of great importance. 4350. Will you mention in what respect their treatment is inferior ? — The really important thing, I think, is supper ; they have not really a good supper. They may have a dinner, but the great bulk of the boys, taking so much exercise as they do, want a good supper at nine o'clock, and the collegers do not get it ; that is to say, they do not get a liberal supper. 4351. {Lord Clarendon.) We were told that they had a pound of meat at dinner and half a pound at supper ? — Very few eat meat at supper at all. They are tired of mutton ; they have cold meat, the inferior parts of sheep, cold necks and breasts. 4352. {Mr. _ Vaughan.) With regard to their dinners, are there any observations that you wish to make upon that subject ? — I think the uniformity of the diet is too great. I should think if they were fed like the boys at Marlborough or some of the other colleges, where there is more variety, it would be better. I do not think they adopt the same uniform system at Hurstpierpoint or Lancing. 4353. {Mr. Thompson.) And there is no reason, I suppose, why it should be adopted at Eton ? — I sup- pose it was for the purpose of simplicity in the accounts. They have so many sheep, and they are able to cut them up and account for them with greater ease. 4354. They have, to some extent, broken the monotony of the old diet ? — Yes, they have made some improvement. 4355. {Mr. Vaughan.) Do you think that with all the difference between the collegers and the oppi- dans, the fact of collegers being intellectual and studious, tends to put study out of fashion among the oppidans ? — I think it did some time ago, but we have got over that ourselves. There was, no doubt, great justice in the remarks that have been made with regard to the idleness of the oppidans ; but I think if the masters are vigilant and active tliey can get over that. Certainly, a few years ago it was much worse than it is now. 4356. Do you observe any appreciable difference between the working of those oppidans who have expectations, and those who have not ? — Yes, I think 60 ; and I believe that any little difficulty in that respect might be overcome by the tutor, to some extent. 4357. Does that at all point to the expectations of the oppidans as a class being one of the real and specific causes of their idleness ? — I think it is a cause, but it has been exaggerated a little. 4358. {A Commissioner.) You consider, liowever, that it is an influence which exists, and one which ought to be counteracted ? — Yes. 4359. {Lord Clarendon.) If there is a great dif- ference between the oppidans and the collegers with respect to intellectual superiority and social distinc- tions, is there any course that you would propose, or any proposition that you would make for raising the oppidans to the level of the collegers ? — I think it would be well to get some statistics of the number of oppidans who have certain expectations of inheriting property. I believe these expectations, as a general rule, are much exaggerated, and that there are many more oppidans at Eton than we suppose who ought to be working for their future success. Out of 43 pupils that I have, I find there are only about 13 who are sure to inherit property ; and then taking away the collegers, it only leaves me 24 boys who are T ETON. W. Johnson, Esq. 10 July 1862. U6 PX7BLIC SCHOOLS COJUIISSION :— MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. ETON. TV. Johnson, Esq. JO July 1862. oppulaus, but who ought to be working for their future success. 4360. {Lord Lyttclton.') And who are not doing so ? — Some are. 4361. {Lord Clarendon.) Do you thinli there would be any dilFiculty in fiuding some means of making oppidans study, and consequently succeed in the same way as collegers ? — There will always be some difficulty, because study is much promoted by the boys being together in one building, and forming as it were a studious class. It is said that there never was a studious body of oppidans except in two houses, those of Bishop Chapman and Mr. Coleridge. They had boys who when they were brought there kept up their education and habits of industry, but recollect there was a certain unpopularity attaching to the houses. 4362. {Lord Ly Helton.) What means would you suggest of providing for the special case of the oppi- dans ?— I think we ought to give special prizes to oppidans. We should have exhibitions tenable by oppidans at the university. 4363. That would be exhibitions to be given specially and exclusively to the oppidans. What I wish to know is, why are not the more general scholarships more competed by them ? — They make a calculation about the probability of such and such a colleger winning, and they say that he is sure, and they will not try ; but with respect to the Tomlino mathematical examination they will. 4364. That is, they feel that the collegers are supe- rior to them ? — Generally speaking, the collegers stand a much better chance of success. 436o. Do you attribute this to the fact, that the advantages of collegers living at Eton are so great, that they attract many of the ablest boys in the country ? — Yes, many boys ccme now whom we should have seen in my time come as oppidans. There is a much larger number who come to try for college now than there used to be. 4366. If a parent has a very clever boy, he will often send him to the competitive examination at Eton ? — Yes, and if there were no such institution as the college at Eton, they would send him to some other school. 4367. {Sir S. Nortlicote.) The boys come in by sharp competitive examinations, do they not ? — Yes. 4368. Which renders it necessary that they should make some preparation before they come to the ex- amination ? — Yes. 4369. They have to work for it ? — Y''es ; they are very often working for five or six years, and are well grounded at an age when the mass of our oppi- dans are only beginning to learn Greek. 4370. {Lord Devon.) Do you consider that instead of the establishment of an exhibition for oppidans, a more stringent examination on the admission of oppidans into the school would have a similar effect ? — It might have some effect, but I think it would be a matter we could hardly carry out if we attempted to make the matriculation very severe. We might abolish the lower school, but we could not make the matriculation very severe, because it would exclude the class of boys for which Eton is supposed to exist. 4371. The upper classes ? — Yes, the sons of people of rank. Generally speaking, they study French very much before they come, and when they do come they are turned over to Greek and Latin ; I should not wisli them to sacrifice everything to Latin and Greek, as those do who try for college. 4372. Taking a national view of the subject, is it desirable that any regulation should be made at Eton based on the assumption that it is a college adapted for only one class of society ? — No ; but I should hesitate to make a regulation that might exclude that class. I think we sliould repel a great many boys of delicate health if we had loo strict a matriculation. 4373. At present you think that Eton is the best school for boys in delicate health ? — Y"es. 4374. {Mr. T/wmpson.) Will you explain how that is ? — I think they are much less molested by their schoolfellows than they would be in other schools. They get more change of air ; they have their pri- vate rooms ; they have an immense amount of open ground ; they have also river bathing, and are able to saunter up .and down the river side, or stand about looking at other boys swimming or boating ;_ they get into the boats and paddle about. In point of fact, they may be said to be out of the house six hours a day in summer. 4375. Do you not think that with respect to the majority of the collegers, it is very important that tliey should not learn any very expensive habits at school ? — Yes. 4376. Would they not be in danger of acquiring these expensive habits if they were to mix more freely with the oppidans ? — I think there are many oppidans sent to Eton whose parents do not intend that they should be extravagant, and with these the collegers might associate. 4377. But the mere fact of their inhabiting different buildings and wearing a different dress is some protec- tion against their acquiring very extravagant habits ? — Decidedly. 4378. Therefore the question of abolishing the difference in dress has two sides to it ? — Yes. Be- sides this, there is some advantage in having a school as it were within a school, which may be termed a centre of instruction. It is a sort of little Rugby in the school. 4379. {Lord Devon.) Has that a tendency to en- cour.age other boys to work ? — No ; I do not think it makes industry attractive, but it keeps up the standard of attainment. 4380. (Sir S. Korthcote.) How many hours a day should you think a fairly industrious oppidan would ■work ? — That depends a good de.al on the time of the year. He might possibly work very hard for two days together to get over a copy of Greek iambics, or he might work hard in preparation for the New- castle competition, in which case he would give up several hours of his play. 4381. How many hours a day would an ambitious boy, who Vi'as preparing for the " Newcastle," give up a day ? — I sliould think for several days in the week he would read nine or ten hours a day ; but he would not do that every day, and it would include the time that he is in school, that he is sitting still, and perhaps not actively employed. 4382. {Lord Clarendon.) Yow think, Mr. Johnson, that a strict ex.aniination for admission is a fallacy rather than otherwise ? — No, I am not prepared to say that ; I should be very glad to see the examina- tion more strict than it is. 4383. Y'^ou certainly gave us a notion that although there is at present a strict examination for admission to Eton, it is a fallacy ? — Yes, it is a fallacy to think that it actually exists in full force ; those who break down in it are admitted to the lower school. 4384. There is no amount of ignorance, you say, in consequence of whicli a boy might fear that he would not get admission ? — Not so long as the lower school exists. It is not like the fourth form, a mere part of the school, but it is in point of fact a separate school. 4385. {Mr. Thompson,) Would you suggest any substitute for the lower school ? — I wonld have a maximum age at which boys should enter it. I would not allow a boy to come to Eton very young. Supposing there was merely a third form, there should be no break, no separate establishment. The masters would belong to the same body. I think the lower school does serious harm, because assistant masters ap- pointed to that school who are very competent to teach little boys, are afterwards allowed to take upper pupils. The lower master may appoint an assistant of inferior attainments who is fit enough to take little boys, but not upper ones ; and the evil is, that when a m.an lias ceased to be junior he is allowed to take pupils of the upper school, and as he finds his pupils rising in the school, he gets work to do in consequence of that for which he is not well qualified. PUBLIC SCHOOLS COMMISSION :— MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 147 At present if the school was limited, and we only took TOO boys, a boy who wished to make sure of coming to Eton would go early into the lower school, because he would have a right to come out of it into the upper school some time or other. 4356. If he passes a certain examination ? — Yes ; I think there ought to be a restriction with respect to the age of the boys going into the upper school. I think that no boy above 14 years of age, should be admitted to the upper school out of the lower, and I believe that such a limitation with respect to age would be very beneficial. 4357. {Lord Lytlelton.) Have you any boys more than that in the lower school now ? — I cannot say exactly. I am told that there is a rule now with respect to the maximum age for boys entering the lower school, but that the lower master dispenses with it. 4388. {Mr. Thompson.) What would be the effect of removing that scliool to some distance from Eton and making it a place of preparation for Eton boys ? — I should be very sorry to give that school an ad- vantage over any other in preparing boys for Eton, but I should not object to see the lower school a mile or two off. I would, however, examine them quite as strictly. 43S9. And you would subject them to the same limitation with respect to age ? — Yes. 4390. You would hardly get such a high class of masters for such a school as that you now have ? — No ; but I should be very glad to get men to go into the lower school, and stay there as teachers, and not change. 43S*1. {Mr. Vauffhan.) To get into the lower school is one of the means by which the law with respect to the entrance into the upper school is evaded ? — Yes. 4392. {Lord Clarendon.) The irregularity arising from the observance of Church festivals, and many other causes, you say, is so great as to make any normal statement of a week's work illusory ? — Yes. 4393. You think this irregularity is objectionable ? — Yes, I think our irregularity generally is a great evil. 4394. You would like to sec the time table cor- rected ? — Yes. 4395. {Mr. Thompson.) Have you any opinion as to the influence of these observances upon the boys ? . — I think the great thing, independently of actual devotion, is to get the boys little periods of repose during the holidays ; and I have heard it urged by men ■whose opinion has been of great weight with respect to the devotion of the boys, that whether they are more devout or not, they at all events get certain periods of repose. I think, however, myself, that it is a bad thing to go to church in the middle of the day merely as a substitute for going to school. 4396. {Lord Clarendon.) You would let them go there on the half-holidays ? — I think they might go once a day. I should like to alter the constitution of the holidays. At present they are very irregular. Perhaps to-day it might be a Church festival ; to- morrow it might be some Royal anniversary. And inasmuch as we are not allowed to drop the exercises, the effect is that the work is compressed into that of other days. 4397. {Mr. Vaughan.) Are there any additional exercises by virtue of the holidays ? — No, the exer- cises remain the same. The boys do them, and the men look them over. It does not give the tutors any work on that particular day, but it throws additional work upon them on other days. 4398. {Lord Devon.) In one of the portions of the evidence there is a passage to this effect : that the consequence of the irregularity is, that there is a heaping together of two days' work, and that little boys often get no play at all before dark in the •winter ? — Yes, that is true. 4399. Is that, as a matter of fact, of frequent oc- currence ? — Yes. 4400. {Lord Clarendon.) I see that " the Head " Master cannot change a book without the consent of " the Provost ; but in practice the privileged publisher "of the Eton school books has great freedom in di- " recting new editions, and the publications are not " worthy of the school." Is it not the foct that the publishers cannot issue a new edition without the consent of the Head Master or the Provost of Eton has been first received ? — I believe that in practice he issues a reprint as a matter of course, unless he is told not to do so. When the book falls out of print, I think the proper way would be that there should be somebody to watch over the matter, and that the question should be considered de novo whether that book is or is not to retain its place in the list of school books, and if it is, what revision it ought to undergo. 4401. Has not the Eton Latin grammar fallen very much into disfavour with the public generally, and is no longer used except at Eton ? — I understand that more popular grammars have spoiled the sale which it had. 4402. Are you one of the committee of assistant classical masters with reference to the question of the choice of books for the school ? — Yes, I was one of the committee, and took a great interest in the matter. 4403. That committee was formed for the purpose of advising the master, was it not ? — Yes, we wanted to simplify the books, and adopt some scheme for their better revision. < 4404. Has that committee taken any action in the matter ? — The late Head Master gave us no support, and it has not been renewed. 4405. {Lord Lyttelton.) Had you any powers ? — He limited us to such an extent that we had no en- couragement to go on. 4406. Does the Head Master discourage it now ? — He does not encourage it. We have not been able to obtain any opinion upon the matter from the Head Master. I think the whole matter is in abey- ance. 4407. {Mr. Vaughan.) Is there anything of a peculiar nature in the contract between the publishers of the Eton books and the authors ? — You mean the editors, I presume ? 4408. Yes, the authors of the editions. Is there anything peculiar in the contract ? — I do not know. I never had to edit one of the books. My impres- sion is that the publisher gets them revised by any master who has an interest in the subject, and who does it for nothing, unless he adds notes, and he then issues a new edition. 4409. Is there any contract between the publisher and the college ? — No. 4410. Under these circumstances, why should there be any difficulty in the school changing its books at any moment, if it be the case that the publisher gets the work done for nothing at all, and that thero is no contract between the bookseller and the school ?^ He could make out a case with reference to the copies which lay upon hand in consequence of the changes that might be made. For instance, I went to the bookseller, to point out the shocking errata in a book, and he said "Here is a book that I have " printed sufficient copies of to last 10 years." 4411. {A Commissioner.) May I ask what was the name of that book ? — Scriptores Romani. The pub- lisher himself is a very public-spirited man, and gets out a large number of books. 4412. {Mr. Vaughan.) What is there in the book- seller's position which should operate to check the introduction of new books into the school ? — It is merely that the publisher has an interest in getting the existing editions all into circulation before new editions are printed. You must give him notice with respect to the alterations which are necessary in the new editions, if you wish to secure coiTect and good Eton school books. Some time ago he got out a book of Greek exercises for the use of the scholars. I believe he thought he was getting a very good man to write it, but we thought it a very bad book, and T 2 ETON. W. JohnajK, Esq. 10 July 1862 148 PUBLIC SCHOOLS COMMISSION: — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. ETON. IK, Johnson, Esq. lOJuiy 1862. asked the Head Master to cancel it, and it was witli- drawu, the publisher standing all the loss. 4413. Should not that be the case if the publisher enters into au incautious contract, seeing that he has no absolute contract with the College, and that they are not responsible in a moral point of view. They cannot therefore be expected to adopt all the injudi- cious books which he may choose to publish as Eton school books ? — I think if the College allows the Eton arms and name to be used, they ought to take some means of preventing the publisher making those great sacrifices. 4414. Does the publisher, as a matter of fact, take the advice of the College before entering into these contracts ? — I believe that the Head Master and the Provost are the only persons invested with the res- ponsible power of directing alterations to be made in the books ; when we applied lately to the authorities for the Provost's sanction to form a committee for the revision of the books of the school, the question, I believe, was raised, and the Head Master and Provost would not part with the power. They have occa- sionally themselves directed the publication of a book. One in particular, I recollect they directed the publi- cation of, several years ago, namely, Arrowsmith's Compendium. I think Mr. James could give you much more information upon this subject than I can. I think that if the school undertakes the publication of the books, or at least stamps them with its name and arras, it ought to take care to make them good. I think that if the school had been its own publisher, the profits would have paid for such things as new school buildings. 4415. You think on the whole that from the mode in which the publication of the books has been con- ducted, and the moral obligations in which the school is involved with respect to their publication, the education of the school has been affected injuriously by the introduction of bad books ? — Yes. 4416. (Mr. Thompson.) Would you mention some of the books wliich you consider bad ? — Both the Scriptores Romani and the Scriptores Grseci are very unsatisfactory. The way in which the latter was got up I believe was this. In the last century the boys read in a book of selections from Lucian, and the men thought they would add a little to it, so they added a little of Herodotus and Thucydides, indeed they put in a good deal of the hardest parts of Thucydides, then some Plato, and so on ; notwith- standing which the Scriptores Graeci by no means represents the Attic writers. 4417. Do you think that Lucian is a good school book ? — I should like to read a little of it. This book I think is carried on too far. 4418. It is not quite the top of the school who read it ? — No, but I think it is carried a little too far. 4419. What would a boy who was reading Lucian and the Scriptores Graici in form be reading with his tutor ? — Thucydides, or Sophocles, perhaps. 4420. Supposing a boy were going through a good course of private tuition, how long would it be before he began to read Euripides ? — In private tuition, as soon as he reached the fifth form, in school when he reached the middle division of the fifth form. We have more books than we want in the lower part of the school both in Greek and Latin reading. We have a fresh reprint of Ovid's Meta- morphoses for the younger boys, which I think was not wanted. 4421. Then in grammar ? — In grammar, we Lave the old Eton books altered. We have Wordsworth's Syntax and Jelf 's Appendix. We have a book called Farnaby's Epigrams, and we have been thinking of having a Greek reading book for some time back, made up of a little of the Odyssey, some of Euripides, and some of the epigrams instead of reading these selections. We went through the matter the other day, but it seemed to come to an end without much being done. 4422. What do you think of the Eton Latin gram- mar ? — I think Dr. Kennedy's book is better. 4423. There has been an objection to the new books in consequence of their not being so arranged as to be fit for class purposes ? — There is a certain clumsiness about Wordsworth's Syntax, not in Ken- nedy's. 4424. Is not the Eton Latin grammar easy to com- mit to memory ? — It is a long time since I have had the teaching of it. The books I use are Arnold's Latin and Greek prose. 4425. {Lord Lyttelton.) What Latin grammar do you use ? — I do not teach any. 4426. What manuals do you use ? — The only manuals I refer to are Arnold's Latin prose and Greek prose. 4427. You do not refer to any Greek grammar ?— Yes, I refer to the Eton Greek grammar for the accidence, but I get the syntax out of Arnold. 4428. You refer to the Eton Latin grammar in the same way ? — Yes. 4429. Have you continued the Poetse Grceci ? — That is a good book I think, but there is not enough of the Odyssey in it for the younger boys. 4430. {Mr. Vaughan.) I understand that it takes the boys two or three years to go through the fifth form, consisting of about 300 boys, in which the same books are used and the same composition set. Do you think that is a good arrangement of the work of the school ? — Yes, but it is not the same composition for all. 4431. So far as I understand, a boy at the lower part of the fifth form would be doing the same work that a boy at the top of the fifth form would be doing ? — Not quite. 4432. Supposing that it be so, that he is doing nearly the same work, do you regard that as a good arrangement ? — I do not think it is a bad arrange- ment, because the boy exerts himself more being in a large class ; he gets the lesson up before he goes into the school, and is able to do it very fairly. There are difficulties about it, but on the whole I think it is a good arrangement. I am inclined to de- fend the " construing " in large classes of pupils. I think it is a good institution. 4433. Construing with tutors ? — ^Yes. 4434. But in any other point of view is it a neces- sary arrangement, or good in your opinion to keep the same boy pursuing the same work so long as that ? — He never gets through the books. 4435. Do you not think it would be better to allow him to advance according to his progress to harder . authors and also to gain the stimulus of variety at an earlier period than he now does ? — The books themselves are of a mixed character, some parts of them being much harder than others, and ho does in point of fact get a variety. 4436. Is it by a different treatment of the same authors in the different divisions that you get that variety ? — Partly ; we make allowance for the dif- ference in the power of the boys. For instance, you would make more allowance for a little boy in a diffi- cult lesson than you would for a more advanced boy. 4437. Do you not think it good that as a boy advances in his scholarship he should be compelled to a greater effort of his mind, and to encounter greater difficulties ? — We 'obtain that in composition, and " private business" at all events. It is in the nature of literature that the difficulties will vary. Even Greek play will vary from day to day, 4438. But surely there may be said to be in Greek literature authors who, with respect to their difficulty of style advance one above another in a tolerably regular series. On the other hand, Xenophon and Thucydides, in respect to general style, could hardly be classed together, although there may be passages in Xenophon that may be difficult and passages in the other that are easy ? — I think, on the whole, there is almost as much advantage in changing from one to the other as there is in a regular ascent. There is advantageous change for the elder boys in consequence of their going back occasionally. PUBLIC SCHOOLS COMMISSION: — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 149 4439. You do not set the compositions the same for all ? — The same for the whole of one class or division only. We get plenty of change in it because the subjects vary so much. 4440. It is given iu the table as the same for all ? — Every master sets the exercise for his own class, and iu setting the work they vary it according to their notion of the power of their own division. 4441. (Lord Clarendon.) You say that the assis- tant masters are a body very rarely consulted by the Head Master, that implies, I think, that he does con- sult them occasionally, does it not ? — Yes. 4442. Would any assistant master have a difficulty in communicating or making any suggestion to the Head Master ? — He would have no difficulty in writing to him and getting an answer. 4443. These meetings that you allude to as being held before school time in chambers are not for the purpose of conferring one with another, are they ? — They are not so much for discussion as for arranging business, something in the same way that meetings are held by officials in a clearing house, for settling between ourselves. A man. for instance, wants to speak to the Head Master about getting leave for a boy, or he wants to bring some case of delicacy before him, or to speak to another tutor, or to make little arrangements, or suggestions. Any business of that kind is transacted at these meetings. 4444. Are we to understand that it would be con- sidered an improper sort of liberty for an assistant master to take were he to ask to see the Provost ? — Yes, on school business. On one occasion an assistant master did take the liberty of writing to the Provost and suggesting some important measures with re- spect to the introduction of modern history. He got i long answer in very polite terms, in which he was told that it was not his place to give any opinion upon any matter in the school without first going to the Head Master. 4445. You say, in page 61, " The study of French " cannot in reason be expected to prosper, except " with a few zealous boj's, since no place is allowed " for it in the time-table. It ought to be enforced on " all, like Latin." Do you think there would be any real difficulty, if there were any disposition to en- courage the study of modern languages in introducing them at Eton ? — I do not think there is any diffi- culty, if you start right, so long as you give up the Eton notion of holidays and half-holidays. In school days you cannot put on any lessons anywhere. We have enough of teaching then. We must start fair altogether. I wish I had put my views on the sub- ject a little more strongly than I have done. I mean not merely to have a language introduced, but a lite- rature, and I think that through the medium of French the boys at Eton might learn all that is neces- sary for them to know with respect to things outside the classics, and indeed probably all that you could communicate to them in such things as modern history. 4446. That is rather a different question ? — What I mean is that we might learn modern history and elements of general modern knowledge through French, the same as we do ancient history and lite- rature through Greek and Latin. 4447. In the first place, French can be hardly said to be studied by anything like a majority of the school, can it ? — Nothing like it. 4448. They do not even attempt to learn it ? — Not more than about one-tenth do, I should say. 4449. There has only been one French master till very recently? — There have been assistants from time to time, several times. The French master has often had an assistant. 4450. (Lord Lyttelton.') And dropped him ? — Yes. 4451. {Lord Clarendon.) There was an assistant French master appointed, I believe, in May 1860 ?— Yes. 4452. But he is no longer there ? — No, because the pupils fell off last summer. 4453. Do you know why the pupils fell off. Was it because the French language is unpopular, or because its study is not encouraged ? — It has fallen off because t)ie boys do not attend regularly ; and they do not attend regularly because there is no resuhir and proper place for it in the time-table. 4454. Even although it is voluntary there is no encouragement given by the masters to the study of French ? — Yes, there is some encouragement given, so far as the giving of prizes is concerned. 4455. But I apprehend it is not encouraged either by the Head Master or the assistant masters. It is quite a voluntary study. It is not in the time-table, because there is no recognition of its necessity ? — It is not in the time-table, certainl}'. 4456. {Sir S. Northcote.) Some of the masters, you say, give prizes ? — Yes, but privately. 4457. {Lord Lytlelton.) What is t!ie value of the prizes which are given ? — The Prince Consort's prizes are believed to be 50/. for French and German. We hardly ever get any Italian. 4458. That is given once a year ? — Yes; distributed in books. 4459. Is it given in a few prizes ? — Yes. Prizes used to be given for the greatest proficiency in two languages. 4460. {Lord Clarendon.) You think the study of French ought to be encouraged like that of Latin ; but that, I presume, would contemplate an entire re-modelling of the school ? — Certainly. 4461. {Sir S. Northcote.) It counts in the exami- nation on trials, does it not ? — It was dropped in the last examination for the middle division. 4462. {Mr. Vaughan.) What was the cause of that ? — I do not know. 4463. Do you know whether it was on the ground that the school had too much to do in the classical work to be able to supply anything for French. Was that the ground ? — I do not know. It was merely pointed out to me that there was no French paper by the boys. 4464. Does your ignorance of the reason which led to the effecting of so great a change as that repre- sent the average ignorance of the assistant masters of the school, as to the causeff' of the great changes that take place in the school from time to time ? — I think it quite possible that a change like that may take place without its being told to any one. 4465. {Sir S. Northcote.) Has it been the case sometimes that boys have been looking forward to the French paper as one of the elements that would count in their examination ? — Yes. 4466. And it is naturally thought tliat the boys will give some attention to it with a view to taking better places. Does it not, therefore, seem rather haid that it should have been dropped ? — Yes. I think the introduction of French into the trials was an anc Jualy, as it is not school work. 4467. {Mr. Thompson.) Could that change have been made without the consent of the present Pro- vost ? — I do not know. 4468. {Lord Clarendon.) You say here "that as " the labour of working a class is undergone for an " extremely small stipend, we are tempted (though " I do not say that we yield to the temptation) to " think too much of our own pupils, and not enough " of the class" ?— Yes. 4469. You think that temptation does exist for the masters to think too much of their own pupils ? — Yes ; I think one of the great causes of the decline of learning among the oppidans was, that men thought too much about keeping up their houses, and not enough about the instruction of the boys in class. 4470. {Mr. Vaughan.) You dropped something just now respecting your opinion of the construing system in the pupil rooms. Will you pursue that subject for a moment, and inform us what are the peculiar advantages of that system according to your views ? — I think it would be advantageous, in the first place, that if we have pupils, we should bring them together. They do not know much of each other unless they T 3 KTON. W. Juftnson, 10 July 18C2. 150 PUBLIC SCHOOLS COMMISSION :— MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. ETON. Tl . Johnson, Esq. 10 July 1862. are brought together, and it is a great advantage to the boys "that thoy should construe lessons together. It requires special alacrity and punctuality. Tiie boys are obliged to construe their lessons under pressure of time, iu construing, there is a strong motive to get over the worli quickly in order to get on with any other work, or to go away. At present, the fifth form boys go away as soon as they have construed their lessons ; and it is considered an honour to a boy to be able to construe quickly. Then again it is thought to be of great utility for younger boys to be construing lessons whilst the others have to sit still, because it will bring the older boys back to a certain elementary knowledge, which they are too apt to pass over. I can ask a question of a younger boy, which I should not like to ask of the elder ones by themselves. The boys have to do 70 lines of Horace, and will get through the lesson in half an hour. It takes exactly that time. I do not think anything could be better for middling fifth-form boys than construing that lesson correctly in the presence of competent judges as to whether they are doing it well or not. They exert themselves as much as in the school afterwards, and there is this advantage, too, when you go into the school you know that the boys have been to the pupil room, and have had the lesson prepared by the tutor. You can, therefore, expect a much higher degree of accuracy. You do not have to take time for considering whether the boys have learnt their lessons sufficiently, but you can often come down on a boy who fails in the order of words, and make him sit down with something of an imposition on the ground that there is no ex- cuse for his not knowing his lesson. It saves a great deal of time in school, and one is enabled to give more attention to the remarks on the lesson, and to those things that arise out of it. 4471. You say that it is the habit in the tutors' room at present to go through the construing as quickly and as well as possible ? — Yes. 4472. Do you not tliiuk that the effect of that is to make the tutor in many cases choose the best con- struer rather than the worst ? — Yes ; that is the tendency, but it is one which we ought to resist. 4473. How many soi-s is your pupil room divided into with regard to iil'th form work ? — Onlj' two. 4474. Is it not the practice for the tutors generally to call only on the head division to construe it first ? — Certainly not with me. 4475. Is it exceptional with respect to you, but general with respect to the other masters ? — I do not quite know. I have heard men talk about it, and their opinion has been to the effect that when they were pupils themselves, it was too much the custom to call out the elder boys only ; but they have not adhered to the practice themselves. Many friends with whom I have conferred on the subject say, that tbey call up all, but I am not sure that that is universally the case. 4476. First, then, apart from the effect on the master in the school, you think that much is gained to the boy in consequence of his being able to con- strue a passage well as something in itself ? — Yes. 4477. Do you not also think that the main advan- tage to the boy himself consists in the propriety of the method which has been adopted to enable him to construe a passage quickly in school ? — Yes, the effort of learning is a great thing. 4478. Do not the advantages you have just enu- merated confine themselves simply to the exhibition which a boy can make in school before his master, apart from the effort which it has cost him to make that exhibition ? — My impression is that he could not do it well in school unless he had been very atten- tive to his tutor. 4479. But is the attention that he has paid to the construing at all comparable to the work he would have to undergo, and to the discipline of the mind which lie would gain by working out the passage for himself ? — He is supposed to have worked it out when he comes to the tutor. 4480. But when a boy has so worked it out, cannot the hearing the passage construed be dispensed with ? They can hardly know it so well as not to require correction. There are many important points of idiom which they require to have explained ; they are al- most sure to miss the best English word, and they brino- bad English, which the tutor has to correct. 4481. Do most of the boys come to the pupil room of the tutor after having prepared themselves, in- dependently by means of the grammar and dictionary, for construing ? — I will not say that most of them have learnt their lessons with the grammar and dic- tionary, because they may have learnt it in some other way, but almost all the boys bring it well pre- pared in "a rough kind of way, and they have it criti- cised and set right, touched up, and improved, and then they go into the school room quite ready to go through with it. 4482. {A Commissioner.) Is dishonesty, iu the pupil room, associated in the minds of the boys with the idea of punishment ? — Yes, I make it a point of honour with the boy to tell me if he has not learnt the lesson for construing, and more than that, he would render himself unpopular by making any attempt to stammer through it. 4483. {3Ir. Vaughan.) You think again that it is an advantage which is ascribed to the tutors' construe that it has the effect of removing the work of the class room from the boy to the master, so far as to enable the master to spend his time iu the class room, in conveying that knowledge to the pupils which he might not have leisure to do otherwise ? — He is able iu the class room to convey his own knowledge to them more at his ease. 4484. On consideration, do you think that there is at all a temptation to the master in class to convey the whole amount of knowledge which he can com- municate to the boys, rather than to test the manner in which the boys have prepared themselves in their lessons ? — We are not learned enough to show off. 4485. I have not imputed ostentation, but do you not teach the pupil rather by communicating knowledge than by seeing what he can do himself? — I always consider myself bound to do two things — to examine the boys as to what they are acquiring, and also to teach them myself. 4486. How do you test the state of the boy's mind by that which you draw out of it, as distinct from the work of imparting information ? — By asking them questions. Whenever I lecture for any length of time, there is always some one on his legs talking and engaged with me. Then I give them something to put into Latin or Greek, which is suggested by the lesson we may be doing. I test them in geo- graphy, history, or iu their recollection of any particular passage. I come constantly back to ex> amination, particularly towards the end of the lesson, in order to see whether they are attending and know the lesson well. 4487. How long does the lesson last ? — It varies. To do a lesson of Homer of 50 lines will require being in school till 12 o'clock, thus taking 50 minutes. Generally speaking, the lessons are not more than 35 lines. 4488. I thought they took from half-an-hour to three-quarters ? — I am speaking of a 50 line lesson in Homer, or a 70 line lesson of Horace, which is the longest lesson. For a lesson in Cicero I take 40 minutes exactly, and for a lesson in Euripides 35 minutes. Sometimes some of the boys in the school stay a few minutes after the others for elementary work. 4489. {Lord Lyttelton.) Do you attach any import- ance to the boys' exercises being looked over by two masters ? — Very gi eat importance indeed. I think if you look over an exercise without a pen in your hand you do not attend much to it, or take notice of the obscurity of thought, but when you intend to alter it you are sure to find out what a boy means to say, and you compel him to make a clear statement. PUBLIC SCHOOLS COMMISSION: — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 151 4-190. That relates to the tutor ?— Yes, if the master in scliool looks over the exercises he will see wliether there are any imperfections in it, and he will not only correct it, but he will see whether the boy has written correctly what his tutor put. The main use of the master in school is to estimate the value of the exercise, and to see whether the subject has been treated generally as it was intended it should be. 4491. Does not the tutor do that ? — lie would not know ; he would not set it. 4492. Do you conceive that a tutor looks over the exercises and makes corrections under the feeling that they will be looked over again and the value of the corrections be tested ? — Certainly, and that in- duces a man to keep up his scholarship more than anything besides. Nothing tends so much to keeping up the scholarship of the tutors as the correction of the exercises. 4493. Taking these considerations which you have stated into account, do you think that they coun- terbalance the obvious consumption of time ? — I do not see how a tutor can spend his time better than in looking ov-er the exercises ; construing in school takes very little time, and the looking over the exer- cises perhaps one fourth of the time which the tutor spends on work. 4494. {Mr. Vaughan.) Do these advantages which you attach to a double overlooking of the exercises accrue where work is done on both occasions by the same man ? — He would not correct his own exercises which he had already signed. 4495. In these cases, however, the exercise is both corrected and looked over by one and the same man? — Yes ; when the tutor is also the boj's division-master. I have one exercise in Greek and one in English which we call the Sunday questions, which is composed of questions on the Bible and Pra3er Book. These do not go to the tutor at all. I look over them by mj'self. There is sometimes a translation from Latin, which does not go to the tutor. The tutor looks over the theme and the verses. I see that the boy has copied them out correctly and that he understands the subject. 4496. Is there any reason why these exercises should not go to the tutor ? — It was merely this, that it was not thought desirable to add to the tutor's work. 4497. So far as the exercises go, are they efl5cicnt ; I am only speaking of these particular exercises ? — Yes. 4498. Why, then, does the classical master of the form not in general do the tutor's work in respect to the exercises as well as his own work? — There would be no tutorial system left in such a case as that. 4499. Apart from that reason, is there any other reason ? — The great reason of it is that a man would get so very weary of it. He would not be half so tired of going over 30 exercises on different subjects as he would be in going over the same subjects 30 different times. The tutor has not the direction of each particular subject. I was engaged yesterday all day and had to look over exercises on 15 different sub- jects. It was a pleasing variety to my mind. I was interested in looking to see what other men had set. It adds materially to the play of the mind and one is kept alive by it. We tell each other when the exercise is badly set, and it prevents us falling into all sorts of delusions. 4500. We were told yesterday that there was a difficulty attending the looking over of exercises when they were various, and that there was great advantage in having to look over a great many on the same subject, instead of looking over a great many exercises on different subjects. I should like to hear from you, whether going into new subjects, and considering how they ought to be treated, and having a great many different exercises to look over on va- rious topics, would not tend seriously to embarrass the tutor ? — I have heard men grumbling at its being too much work certainly. 4501. Do you think there is sufficient variety in the composition of the fifth form to allow of the tutors having that recreation ? — Yes, there is a great variety. 4502. Do you think the variety will compensate for any additional labour it may be to the tutor to look them over ? — Yes, I should feel ashamed if I did not find it so. 4503. {Lord Clarendon.) With respect to the limit of the number of private pupils as compared with that of the masters, you have told us that you always limited the number yourself to 40 pupils ? — Yes, I always tried. 4504. That is the limit which will in future be enforced throughout the school, is it not ?— Not with respect to the old assistant masters ; only in regard to the new ones. 4505. It will be extended to the whole of the masters who may happen to be appointed after the regulation was signed ? — Yes. 4506. Will there be any means of ascertaining whether that limitation is abided by or not? I suppose that the Head Master will always know. In one or two cases an assistant master has found himself involved deeply in engagements in this respect, which he cannot get out of. I know that my friends cannot take an excessive number without getting leave of the Head Master, I am not limited in that way myself. 4507. Because, I presume, you were there before the regulation was made ? — I came before the rulo was made certainly. 4508. You consider yourself at liberty, as far as any restriction is concerned, to take what number you like ? — Yes. 4509. {Lord Li/ltelton.) Do you think that to have more than 40 would diminish your means of obtaining an intimate knowledge of their character. Would you limit the number of private pupils which any one master should take with respect to that conside- i-ation ? — I should limit the number partly with re- spect to that. I think it would vary very much with the particular men. It depends very much on a man's powers and health. 4510. Do you think that supposing the tutors to bo in full health and vigour, 40 would be the proper average number of pupils to each master ? — I do not think it ought to be exceeded. As the number has been reduced, I would not like to see it in- creased again. 4511. You think that 40 pupils to one master is as many as it is desirable that he should have ? — Yes. 4512. You have never found any difficulty yourself with that number ? — No ; I do not profess to be fully acquainted with all my pupils, but I know that I have never found myself overburdened with work. 4513. {Lord Claretidoti.) You think that a boy ought to be competent after having been at Eton to pass an examination for the army without any special instruction ? — I think he is generally, if he leaves when high in the school. 4514. Without the coaching that is resorted to in most cases ? — Almost all of them do have some inter- mediate teaching, but I think that they need not. 4515. But they all do, because either their parents or those who know the nature of the examination, or the state of fitness or preparation which the bo3'S are in, believe it is necessary for them to do so. Do you think that intemiediate teaching is necessary in order that they should pass ? — I do not think it is necessary, I know boys who have passed the ex- amination without it. 4516. Going straight from you ? — Some have, and others have had an interval of six months' private teaching, but they have .afterwards told me tliat they have gained nothing from it. lliere are, however, cases of boys so stupid that they have to be removed from the school, because they cannot pass any of their examinations, and those boys of course require the assistance of a special teacher. T 4 ETON. W. Johnson. 10 July 1862. 152 PUBLIC SCHOOLS COMMISSION: — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. ETON. W. Joliition, Esq. 10 July I8G2. 4517. You .s.ay that Eton can and docs give them the necessary instruct ion and extra teaching to enable them to pass at the military competitive exaniir.ations ? — Tliereisnot any systematic teaching of clironology given. They have to get up that, but iu point of tact, that does not require teaching ; they can get it up by tliemselves. The fact is, that before leaving Eton, they like to have the pleasure of taking things easy for tlie last half year, and they pay the penalty of having to get up the necessary require- ments from a special teacher. 4518. l?ut if the parents were to tell the tutor that the boy were going up for examination, in six months or a year, for a commission, the tutor would have no difficulty, in your opinion, in rendering that boy fit for the examiuatiou ? — I do not think that many of the tutors would undertake to give extra lessons for it. I have done so, but I found the pupil take very little interest in them, and they would rather put it off till they are gone. 4519. But extra lessons are necessary ; a boy can- not go straight to Chelsea ? — Extra reading may be necessary in modern geography, and just in the out- lines of history. 4520. Tliat is to say that he does not learn chrono- logy and history, and French, which are among the ordinary requirements of an English gentleman's education, well at Eton ? — He does not Jearn French unless he learns it out of school or at home, nor are the common outlines of history taught systematically at Eton. I think, in fact, they are too easy to form the subject of lessons, except for little boys. I should not think it worth while to go into school with my class of boys in the fourth division to go through mere outlines of history. 4521. {Lord Lyttelton.) You suggest that they might be added ? — I do not wish to see them in the upper part of the school, but I should like to see history taught through French iu my part of vhe school. 4522. But that is done already in the lower part of the school, is it not ? — I should like to go back to chronology every now and then. If a boy is seen to be deficient in the outlines of history he should be brought back to the lower class and have a special course to get him through it. 4523. {Lord Clarendon.) Otherwise as it noAV Islands he learns what is useful, and what you your- i;elf acknowledge to be a necessary part of every English gentleman's education, and then he almost certainly forgets it when he comes into the upper part iDf the school, or when he leaves school, when he is almost sure to want those acquirements ? — No ; I think they are almost continually coming up again. It is like learning the elements of grammar. You forget all the steps by which you advanced, but still the acquirement remains. It is not by any means so ineglected as many people imagine. We constantly refer to chronology and the elements of history in lessons and iu setting com'position. I think if we read the best French literature in the fifth form, which I should like to do, we should be constantly going back to the elementary analysis of modern history, chronology, and geography, and what was learnt in the lower part of the school would be con- stantly coming up again ; but I should not like the elder boys to go into the school merely to do the outlines of history, except as a sort of punishment, as they now do with Greek accidence. 4524. But surely there ought to be some system to provide for the keeping up, or at all events, for not losing a branch of education, which is very impor- tant ? — If we read French in the school everythino' else would iu reality be drawn in with it. 4525. {Mr. Vaughan.) If you think it is necessary to read French in the school do you think that the desirable mode of prosecuting its study in any part of the school at Eton would be by instructions given by the assistant classical masters ? Yes. 4626. You would prefer that method of teaching French at Eton, on the whole, to the method of teach- ing it by the introduction of any Frenchmen, or any foreigners in general ? — I should like to have one or t^vo foreigners to teach the more advanced boys and the masters. 4527. At what period would you think it necessary to leave off teaching the boys French by means of instruction received through an assistant classical master ? — I would set aside the two first divisions in the school ; about 60 boys. 4528. With respect to the earlier stages of the in- struction, in what way would you manage that. How would they gain the pronunciation ? — I should assume that they had gone through all the earlier stages of instruction before they came. 4529. You think that French pronunciation should be always learnt before the boys come ? — I believe that a really good pronunciation never would be learnt at Eton. 4530. Would it not be necessary for a boy to be passing through a great number of forms and hearing the pronunciation of the assistant masters in each ? — Yes, no doubt, and we could not expect that it would be a good pronunciation. 4531. Do you think that passing through the va- rious classes in that way, and hearing constantly imperfect pronunciation, they would get sufficiently pure French to prevent some injury being done to hem ? — I do not think they would accept our pro- nunciation. 4532. Even if some injury were done, you think that with regard to the average of the boys it would be unimportant ? — I should doubt whether they would acquire a good style of pronunciation, but I think it would make the school what it ought to be ; it would make the boys as perfect in reading French as they are in reading Greek and Latin. 4533. And to that extent it could be done by the assistant classical masters? — Yes; and I may add, that it could only be done by them. 4534. You are assuming that the assistant classical masters would be perfectly good grammatical French scholars ? — No doubt. 4535. Do you think that, taking into consideration the existing system at Eton, if it became thoroughly well known that in future no man would be com- petent to fill the position of an assistant master without adding a knowledge of the French language to his classical qualifications, that men who possessed the requisite classical qualifications could be found who possessed that qualification also? — I should think so. If it were made a sine qtta non, the men would soon conform to the rule, and qualify them- selves to teach French. You might require them to take a degree in Paris before they came. 4536. Considering that the greater part of the qualifications for teaching classics are acquired by men at the age of 22 or 23, you do not think that requiring them to have the additional qualification of being a good French scholar in order to qualify themselves for assistant masters at Eton would be requiring too much ? — No, I do not think it would be at all requiring too much. 4537. You think also that the character of the school is such that it would always command the services of perfectly good and sufficient men as assist- ant classical masters even although that qualification were required ? — Certainly. 4538. {Mr. T/iompson.) Would it not be a long time before you could get such men ? — No ; I should think we should soon get men capable of teaching French as well as the classics, and we should gain much in infiuence by employing Englishmen. At a meeting of the masters which was held some time ago, many of us said that we were quite willing to try if we could prepare ourselves in the holidays in French, to take French classes among the lower boys. We thought that there would be quite enough of the masters capable of doing that to teach all the lower boys, and then leave them after that to their French teachers. i PUBUC SCHOOLS COMMISSION : —MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 153 4539. {Lord Li/ttrlton.) That was if you could find any means of introducing French into the reguhir work ? — Yes. We must have a new time table. 4540. {^f>■ Thompson.) You would not introduce it as an additional branch of study, and teach it privately ? — No, I do not hold with that. I think we ought not to do any more in that way. 4541. (Lord Devon.) How many hours a week do you teach now? — About 56 hours a week, including Sunday, I have put down here ; but I think that is rather an over-statement when you have to consider the summer. In summer time I cannot keep up to that average. 4542. {Lord Clarendon.) You state that the boys are allowed plenty of time for optional studies, such as modern languages and so on ; but did I not under- stand you to say just now that it would be impossible to do more in the way of modern languages than is already done ? — That it would be impossible for the boys to do more ? 4543. Yes, in the way of regular work ? — As long as we kept up our present notions of regular work with half-holidays beginning at 12, there would not be found what we call regular school hours during the week for these lessons. If we do not add it to the regular classical hours, we should be sacrificing Latin and Greek. I think if we brought in French we should have to add to the number of hours we spend in class. Supposing we have 17 regular public lessons a week, I think we might add three to them for French. 4544. I perceive you say here that the assistant masters are of one mind in thinking that it is better to complete the routine by incorporating chronology, modern geography, and French, than to constitute a "modern department," or a professional or practical school, which you believe would be the refuge of the weak and idle. That is to say, you would not be in favour of what is called the system of bifurcation ? — I should not. 4545. Uo you think that the introduction of the system of bifurcation would be best, or that these subjects should be taught alongside of the old sub- jects. You think that to have a separate department for thera would not work well ? — No, I think that boys would want to go into that department who were almost professed idlers. 4546. Have you heard that opinion expressed else- where ? — Yes, and I think it would be so, knowing the class of boys we have at Eton. 4547. Do you think that it would be impossible to incorporate those branches of study which are taught at special or separate schools with the present system of education pursued at Eton ? — I am not prepared to say that you could read and teach French, Latin, and Greek all equally well all the year round ; but I think that by having French, and giving it a place in the time table, you might keep the boys well up in it. 4548. But you could not do that without completely remodelling the time table ? — No. 4549. If that was done carefully there would be no difficulty about introducing and keeping up those studies which you think necessary ? — There would be no difficulty in introducing them, but I do not think that we could keep up all these studies concurrently all through the year. 4550. {Lord Devon.) Will you explain in a few words on what principle the time table would proceed, and what the result would be as regards the number of hours in each day that would be devoted to in- tellectual work. Would the result be that the boys would work harder ? — They would be compelled to be longer with their class masters, as distinguished from their tutors ; we have, every week, two half holidays, and I should like to see those half holidays begin later. At present, in summer, those are the times when idleness is most conspicuous ; a boy can get away from school, on a half holiday, at 12 o'clock, and though we have exercises to look over he is almost certain to see nothing of hia tutor or class muster all 1. day ; ho goes to church at three. What I should propose would be that we should stay at work until dinner time, and that the half holiday should begin at three o'clock. 4551. You would dispense with the rule that they should go to church at three ? — I would not put it on at three, I should be inclined to take the late church service off. At present it takes place nt a time when the lower boys have very often a great deal to do, but the 5th form boys go away at 12 and get two hours play ; then they go to dinner. At three to chapel, then to play again. At six o'clock they come and have their n.ames called over and then go out again and play till a quarter to nine o'clock in the summer. 4552. On the whole, by the alteration of the calen^ dar, you would save a great many hours a week in the school ? — Yes, but the difficulty is, that this is the only subject upon which I stand alone at Eton, I cannot get any one to agree with me in wishing to have more school hours, or in thinking that the lialf holidays ought to be altered. I should not object to have two half holidays in the week if they did not begin so early. 4553. You have two half holidays a week at present ? — Yes, at least that in the hardest week. The holidays are supposed to enable the masters to have what we call private business, that is to say, extra duties ; but in the season when holid.ays are most frequent there is not much private business. 4554. Should the alteration of the calendar, in your opinion, be based upon what additional amount of instruction it would be possible for the boys to receive ? — Yes, I would give holidays occasionally, but the difficulty now is that the holid.ays come on the wrong days. I would alter the constitution of the half holidays altogether, and make them begin at three o'clock. 4555. {Mr. Vaughan.) You consider the drawing to be efficient ? — Yes. 4556. Have you seen the work of the pupils ?— Often. 4557. Have you been in the school and seen the work as it has been going on ? — Yes. 4558. Do you think that the number of the boys who learn drawing is a very fair proportion out of so large a school ? — 1 do not know what it ought to be. 4559. Taking them entirely as you say as optional students you have no means of knowing at all whether the proportion of the boys who learn draw- ing at Eton to the whole number of the school is as large as the number of boys who learn it at other public schools, in proportion to their whole number ? —No. 4560. It is done in pl.ay hours ? — Yes. 4561. I think this written answer (22) con- nected with something you have said in a former part of your examination seems to imply that you would not be sorry to see music more cultivated at Eton than it is at present ? — I should be very glad to see it more cultivated at Eton. 4562. Do you think there are many boys who care (as volunteers) about learning music in the school ? — No, there are not many who learn it. 4563. Do they learn chiefly as vocalists or as in- strumentalists ? — Chiefly as instrumentalists. 4564. From whom do they get their instruction ? — A few from the organist at Windsor, a few from some of the singing men, and some practise the piano themselves. 4565. Does the instruction which they get include the general principles of music or simply the practical part sufficient to enable them to manage their voice and instrument? — I think the instruction is chiefly of a practical character. 4566. Do you think that that is a good way of teaching music ? — I should be very glad of course if they could be instructed in the regular principles of music, but it would be very tedious for the boys to be kept in classes for that purpose. U ETON. W. Johnson^ E'iq. 10 July 18G2. 15* PUBLIC SCHOOLS COMMISSION :— MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 4 ETON. IK Johnson, Esq. 10 July 18G2. 4567. {A Commissioner.) I presume it would be somewhiit iliflicult to teach boys the principles of music ill class?— I believe that the only way in which music could be taught in Eton is to have a musical society and school concerts, so as to get the frequent union of small music classes. They cannot work together in large classes. 4o68. {Mr. Vauyhan.) With respect to instru- mental music how would you wish to bring in that ? —You could get school concerts of instrumental music. 4569. Practically speaking have you ever known instruments to be used iu order to give proper musical instruction ? — I suppose the violin is. Some people object to wind instruments as being less safe to practice with regard to the health of the boys. 4570. Beside which they are less effective with respect to teaching the principles of music ? — Cer- tainly. 4571. {Lord Devon.) Did not Mr. HuUah once try to teach the boys at Eton ? — Yes, and ftiiled. It went on for a few weeks or months. 4572. Did it fail from a want of disposition on the part of the boys to be instructed in masses ? — Yes ; they got tired of it, 4573. {Mr. Vaughan.) Do you consider, be.aring in mind the class of boys who receive their education at Eton, and their position in society, that it would be very desirable that more boys should learn one or the other of the arts of music, and drawing, in a solid manner than they do now ? — I think it would be very desirable, but 1 believe that anyone could learn a great deal in the 14 weeks holiday, and I think the boys would do so if there was a society, and public displays in the school. 4574. Regularly countenanced by the school .iu- thorities ? — Yes. 4575. {Lord Clarendon.) You say that in theory the ten first oppidans and the seven first collegers, or King's scholars, have monitorial powers. I do not understand to what extent the ten first oppidans and seven first collegers really have monitorial powers. There is conflicting evidence on the subject. It would appear that those powers used to exist, but were not found useful, and are now almost in abeyance. What monitorial powers are really in existence ? — The seven first collegers have the power of setting punishment to their school fellows, for such things as behaving in a disorderly way, or for going to forbidden places. For instance, the dormitory of the 20 younger boys is forbidden ground to the fifth form, and if any of the fifth form boys go there they are punished by the praepostors or moni- tors. 4576. {Mr. Vaughan.) What sort of punishments do they set ? — Written impositions are set, enforced by corporal punishment, as the ultima ratio. 4577. By the monitors ? — Yes. 4578. {Lord Lyttelton.) Would a boy in the fifth form submit to that ? — Yes, iu college. 4579. There is a great distinction between the col- legers and oppidans in that respect ?— .Yes. 4580. Would an oppidan come under the punishment of an imposition by a sixth form ? — Yes ; but it is, I believe, never done now. 4581. Do you remember whether it ever has been done ? — Yes, even of late years. 4582. {Lord Clarendon.) Can an oppidan monitor exercise authority over a colleger? — No, except perhaps when keeping order in a school-room. 4583. And vice versa, I suppose. A colleger who is a monitor caunot exercise authority over an oppi- dan? — Yes, a colleger can over an oppidan, but not in the fifth form. Formerly, oppidans were very often corporally punished by colleger praepostors, but some years ago the leading oppidans stopped that practice summarily. The oppidans are admitted to the prae- postorship, as it is called, to keep order in the school, to help the Head Master, to collect the victims for punishment, and so on ; the sixth form praepostor is, ia fact, a sort of lictor to the Head Master. 4584. {Lord Lyttelton.) With regard to the general discipline, has a sixth form oppidan any distinct power of discipline out of the school ?— He is expected to keep the boys away from Windsor Fair. He is expected to do as the masters do, and is supposed to be eng.aged in the cause, but he is really engaged for his own amusement. The boys m.ike a joke of it. 4585. But in points of real difficulty the Head Master would rely a good deal on the sixth form ? — Yes. 4586. In respect to the ordinary routine of the school, do the oppidans of the sixth form feel that there is any monitorial responsibility thrown upon them ? — No, not more than as leading boys. The captain of the oppidans has considerable power, but it is not exactly a monitorial power. 4587. As captain of the boys he would be looked up to ? — Yes, he has great influence. 4588. {Lord Devon.) Have they the power to inflict personal chastisement ? — In college they have, and they const.antly use it. 4589. The answers that we had from Dr. Goodford, I think, testified that that applied only to them ? — I have had the very best reason for knowing that within the last few weeks. 4590. Is a boy liable to be punished for any offence he commits in the playground ? — Yes, a colleger by collegers. 4591. {Mr. Vaughan.) By the monitor ? — Yes, by the head boys of the sixth form. I doubt whether, properly speaking you can call them monitors. 4592. {Lord Devon.) Is there no regulation that requires the intervention of a certain time between the commission of the offence and tlie infliction of the punishment ? — No, there is no great danger of .iny improper usage growing up in that way, because the punishments inflicted by the monitor are, I believe, inflicted in the presence of the other boys at supper time ; the boy is sent for to be punished by the praB- postor there and then in the presence of his school- fellows. 4593. Is there any limit to that punishment, I mean with regard to the number of strokes ? — There is no precise rule about it, and I have known old collegers of modern date talk of excessive chastisements. 4594. Of course they are controlled to some extent by the presence of the boy's schoolfellows ? — Yes. 4595. {Lord Clarendon.) When a boy is sent for to have punishment inflicted in the presence of his schoolfellows, can he make any appeal ? — No ; it is supposed to be their joint act. 4596. {Lord Devon.) Were you on the founda- tion ? — Yes. 4597. Did this practice exist in your time ? — Yes. 4598. {Mr. Vaughan.) Can you call to mind the greatest age of a boy who has been called on to sufler this kind of punishment from the sixth form boys ? — I cannot remember any particular case in detail. 4599. Might it occur when a boy had reached the age of 15 or 16 ? — Yes, 17 or 18, at the hands of boys of the same age. 4600. And of no more physical strength ? — It would always be inflicted by a boy of adequate phy- sical strength ,as compared with the boy who had to suffer the punishment. 4601. Do you think that the spirit in which it has been maintained by the monitors in the college is one in which a strong esprit de corps prevails ? — Yes, I think there is a strong esprit de corps in favour of the monitorial authority. 4602. You do think that where a fifth form boy complained of the conduct of one of the monitors to the rest of them he would be likely to gain redress ? — I tJiink they would be sure to decide in favour of their brother monitor. If there was any appeal made it would be to the Head Master. 4603. They can appeal to the Head Master before the blow is struck ? — Yes ; but some boys would be afraid, and though other boys might not there would be no facility giveu them for doing so. PUBLIC SCHOOLS COMMISSION:— MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 155 4604. Does this power produce anything liliC a se- panilion between tiie monitors and all below them in the college ? — Yes, I think it does tend that way. 460o. Is tlie exercise of the power accompanied by nnvlliing like a vigilant control to prevent bullying on the part of the boys, or does bullying not exist more iu those houses in which the monitorial power is not conceded ? — Not a bit more in the oppidans' houses. On the contrary, one of the worst cases of bullying within the last two or three years happened in the college, and went on systematically until it was checked, not by the sixth form, but by the master in college with whom the sufferer took refuge. 4(i06. In the liouses of the oppidans, where the same monitorial authority is not confided to anybodj', how is bullying suppressed? — By means of the most influential persons in the houses. We do not require any person to exercise any special powers for that purpose. 4()07. There is no charge given to any particular class with rcsj)ect to it ? — No. 4605. There is a general feeling in the school against bullying, and in favour of the weaker boy against the stronger ? — Yes. If there was a boy who had acquired influence over the rest out of school from being a good cricketer or a good football player he would be expected to use his influence to prevent anything like bullying. It would not at all depend upon his being a sixth form boy. 4609. In such a case as that, would it not be neces- sary for him to have great physical strength ? — No ; I think such a boy would, generally speaking, have quite influence enough, even where he had no great physical strength. The spirit in which the oppidans are ruled is very different from the monitorial spirit. They are ruled entirely by those who get the natural ascendanc}-. 4610. And that ascendancy is obtained by the in- fluence of their moral character ? — Quite as much as by ph3sieal power. 4611. By moral as much as by intellectual power ? — I do not think that the intellect has very much to do with it. 4612. Is superiority in the games alwa3's a cause of it ? — I think that is always mixed up with it. They do not succeed in the games unless they are possessed of fine moral qualities. 4613. Might there not be boys of a tyrannical and cruel disposition who were still good at games ? — They seldotn become captains unless they are boys of good disposition. 4614. It is necessary, then, I suppose, that besides actually excelling in games, they should have some official pre-eminence in the games ? — I think that bullying is often prevented in the first instance by boys who have no official position in the school. 4615. Nor in the games ? — No, but of course the boys naturally look up to their leaders in the games. 4616. Do you think that that sort of pre eminence which you have described iu the games is apt to be accompanied as well as supported by intellectual pre- eminence in the school ? — Yes, supported, if accom- panied, but not often accompanied. 4617. {Lord Devon.) Is the power of inflicting corporal punishments a power which many of the old Etonians connected with the institution feel strongly in favour of retaining ? — I do not know any person now who is strongly in favour of it. 4618. Has it been a matter of discussion among the masters ? — Not of discussion, I think, we have talked it over with one another. 4619. Which way have the opinions inclined. Are the assistant masters in favour of retaining it or not ? — I think that most of the men with whom I have spoken on the subject, consider that the less there is of it the better. 4620. {Lord Lyttelton^ Is not what you say now a little inconsistent with your written evidence. Have you not somewhat understated the case in your written evidence, that there is no real power in the sixth form collegers to exercise it ? — I think I have stated that they have the pow-er to inflict punish- ETON, ments for petty offences. 4621. I think you have also stated that they are W.Juhisun, prefects or monitors more in shadow than in substance, £«/■ whereas you now state that they do actually exercise a power of corporal punishment ? — It is very rarely 10 July 1862. exercised, compared with what it used to be. It is ' quite different now, because almost all the discipline out of school is carried on now by the master in college. 4622. You state that there is a little pressure put on a few collegers to make them play at cricket ? — • Y'es, I think that that is understated. 4623. Is that among the bigger bo}'s who are .able to play, are they actually required to play at cricket ? — I have lately discovered that they have been this last year or two. There were not some few years ago. I have known a monitor compel a boy to take part in the games of cricket. 4624. As well as football ? — In football there is very little difficulty. Many boys set up a right to boat, which is disputed. 4625. {Mr. Vaughan.) Do you think that the power to which you allude here is a fair instance of the exercise of monitorial power? — No, I think not. It is not properly an exercise of a monitorial power. 4626. Y''ou think in this particulai" case it was rather an instance of the authority of a big boy compelling another to take part in the games of tho school, than the exercise of authority by a monitor as such ? — Yes, I think so. 4627. {Lord Lyttelton.) Could he Lave ventured to have inflicted a punishment in that case under the plea that he had a right to do so, and which he would not have a right to do if he were not a monitor ? — I do not know. I think it was the coincidence of the monitorial with the cricketing power, which he bad generally, that operated in that particular case. 4628. {Mr. Vaughan.) Do you not think that, al- though that power was not strictly the monitorial power, yet its exercise in that case intimates that there is a system of pressure existing in the school which has the effect of compelling boys to join in games who do not wish to do so ? — Yes, I think there is in college. 4629. {Lord Clarendon.) I will ask you one more question in respect to the monitors. You think that the prefect or monitor, by the nature of the case, is made harsh by "freshness of dominion," and leaves the school before he acquires enough expe- rience ; and you say that he has not, and cannot have, the tranquillity of mind or tho charity needed for dealing with boys. He can hardly help provoking them to wrath. They do not feel his right to govern as they feel the right of one who teaches. Now that is so completely at variance with the opinions and the practice that we have found to exist at Harrow and other public schools, that I should like to know if it is your opinion, founded upon your own expe- rience and observation ? — Y'es, upon my Eton ex- perience, and my indirect acquaintance with Kugby and Harrow. Some boys come to Eton whose parents would have sent them to Harrow but for the existence of the monitorial power and the monitorial system. 4630. What is your knowledge of Harrow : you say you have some experience of it ? — I have little save indirect or second-hand knowledge of it. I have heard a great deal in favour of it from the Head Master of Harrow. 4631. The present Head Master ?— Yes. ' 4632. Are the other masters of Harrow in favour of it ? — Mr. Farrar is certainly. 4633. In favour of it? — Yes. I talked it over with tho Head Master of Harrow. We differed very strongly on it. The Head Master of Winchester, I think, is rather in favour of it. 4634. {Lord Lyttelton.) Have you read his letter to Sir W. Heathcote upon it ? — Yes. 4635. {Lord Clarendon.) Will the experience you have of the effect of the modified monitorial system U2 156 PUBLIC SCHOOLS COMMISSION : — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE.. ETON. of Eton tend to confirm th.it opinion ?— I think it ^ ' will tend to confirm the opinion I entertain. ^V. Johnson, 4636. {Lo-d Lyttdton.) Wonld the abnses you £s?. refer to of the monitorial power apply to what you have seen at Eton ?— They apply chiefly to my own 10 July 1862. j.g(,oiiection of what the system used to be. I cannot ~~ say that I have heard so much of such things of late yeai-s. One does not get that kind of information quite fresh ; but I have heard quite enough to confirm my opinion. 4637. {Mr. Vauffhan.) Have you ever talked to any persons who have iiad any actual personal experience of it from having been in the school, or lived near enough to watch it ? — I have talked with the Head Master of Harrow upon the subject, and with Rugby men. 4638. But all you heard from him was in favour of the monitorial system ? — Yes ; but it gave me no impression that it was a good one. 4639. Do you meiin to say that the facts have all been at variance with the opinions you have heard expressed on this subject ? — My conversation with the Head Master rather confirmed me in the opinion I before entertained, that it was an evil. 4640. {3Ir. T/io»ipson.) You object to it as being injurious to the morale of the boys ? — Yes, of the monitors particularly. 4641. And your opinion is confirmed by what you have seen or heard of the monitorial system in other schools ? — Yes, I think that if the Eton boys are dis- tinguished as being pleasanter boys to deal with than others it is in consequence of no strain being put upon them, and because they are under the guidance of natural influence almost entirely. 4642. Do you think that Harrow would be im- proved by the abolition of the monitorial system ? — I think it would, and I should suppose Winchester too. 4643. (Lord Devon.) Has the extent to which the power of fagging rests varied of late years very much ? — Within tlie last 30 years, certainly. It is very different now to what it was when I was a boy. Cricketing fagging was abolished entirely when Dr. Hawtrey became Head Master. 4644. What portions of the school exercise the right of fiigglng ? — All the fifth form, excepting the last 60 or 70 boys. 4645. And of course the sixth ? — Yes. 4646. You propose to limit the power to the sixth form and the upper division of the fifth ? — Yes, I should like to do that. 4647. Would you introduce any limit as to the nature of the services rendered ? — I would abolish menial service, and regular attendance at breakfast and tea, and leave the rest as it is. 4648. You think that there is a great deal of attendance on the p.art of little boys, which neces- sarily interferes with their getting their own break- fasts ? — Yes, it is very inconvenient to all boys who do not know how to manage their time well. 4649. Do you think it interferes with the school work ? — Yes. 4650. On the whole, however, you entertain the opinion that no serious evil exists in the system of fagging as it is now practised at Eton ? — No. 4651. Do you think any good results from it ? — Yes, I think it tends to acquaintance between the little boys and the bigger ones. 4652. Do you know instances in which the system has led to friendships in after life ? — Yes, to some- thing like friendship. 4653. {Lord Lyttdton.) Do you think any benefit results from the sixth form .and fifth form boys having the power of sending a boy on a message ? — I do not see how a big boy can do without it. If he h.as to send a boy a long way oflf, and has no servant who can go, I think he ought to be able to send one of the smaller boys. 4654. You think that there are really good reasons to be urged for keeping up the system ? — I think there is some good in it. The little boys in that way promote llie general service of the school. 4655. There is no real inconvenience done to the little boys in consequence of tlieir being sent on Ion"- messages. Is it not hard work for them ? — It is sometimes. 4656. {Mr. Vaughait.) The lower boys are those who are at present subjected to the power of fagging on the part of the sixth and fifth forms ? — Yes. 4657. Below the remove ? — The remove are tagged, which will give you .about 400 of the boys in the school who are fagged at present. 4658. Then nearly half the school are fivgs ? — Yes, I think so, quite. 4659. You think that the proportion of the school, speaking from memory, who now have the power of fagging is nearly half ? — Yes. 4660. So that in point of fact there are nearly as many masters as fags ? — Yes. 4661. Are you sufficiently acquainted with the system of fagging as it exists at Rugby and Harrow, to be aware whether that is a very much larger propor- tion of faggers to fags than exists in those schools ? — I do not know. 4662. Do you not think that considering the num- ber of boys that undergo fagging, it would be an advantage not only to diminish the number of boys who exercise the power, but at the same time to increase the number of those who are subject to it ?_No. 4663. Will you have the goodness to describe the attendance which a little boy has to give to a big boy, for instance at breakfast, both as to the time it lasts and iis to the duties which he has to perform ? — Fifteen minutes would be about the average, I should think, but it would not exceed half an hour in any case. 4664. That is after the first lesson ? — Yes, and before the boys go to their tutor, just at the time in point of fact when they ought to be preparing their lessons. The fags are more likely to be detained in toasting bread than anything else, especially in the winter. 4665. In point of fact he is liable to be detained, and is detained, 20 minutes at a time, when he ought to be getting his own breakfast ? — It may either be then or after he has got his own breakfast, and when he ought to be learning his lesson. 4666. Is it sure either to interfere with one or the other ? — No ; with really sensible and prudent boys it would never interfere at all. 4667. Is their attendance required at any other time ? — In the afternoons, at tea-time. They are more likely to be detained preparing toast for their masters at that time than any other, and in point of fact they are very often detained there for more than half an hour. 4668. It would come to something like three quarters of a hour during the course of the day then ? — I should think it would. 4669. Does it pervade all the boarding houses ? — I have heard of one house, I believe, in which the system did not exist. 4670. Is it the case that one boy waits on three or four boys or does each of the fags wait upon his own master ? — Sometimes one boy waits on three or four of the masters who mess together, and who club their fags together. 467 1 . Does not that involve a great increase of the time during which the attendant boy has to fag ? —No. 4672. Would not eveiy additional boy want ad- ditional toastmaking which would involve the expen- diture by the attendant of an additional amount of time ? — It would be the case if the boy toasted for any other master besides his own, but that does not often happen. 4673. Commonly speaking each master has his own fag to wait upon him ? — He has other masters' fags sometimes. It depends very much upon each in- dividual master how much work a fag has to do. PUBUC SCHOOLS COMMISSION :— MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 1 5V 4674. If I understand rightly, about half the boys iu the school are fagged, consequenily there is one master to every fag, and he has to fug for his master every morning and evening, is not tliat the ease ? — No, because so many of the boys in the fifth form have not the power of exacting regular services from the little boys although they have the power of sending them on messages. The fags are assigned by the captain of the boys in each house. The captain of the house looks at the list of the lower boys who are liable to service, considers who have a claim on him for ser- vants to be assigned to them, and having taken fags Liraself, he assigns the rest in turn to those entitled to them. The captain always has several fags him- self. 4675. Do you mean to say that the captain of the house has the power of stating who in tliat house, in- dependent of the general constitution of the school, shall have fags ? — Yes, that is the system. 4676. {Lord Lyttelton.) It is confined to the fifth and sixth forms ? — Yes. 4677. (Mr. Vaiiffhan.) Does he settle who amongst those, according to the constitution of the school liable to be fagged, shall be fags, and who on the other hand capable of fagging shall have the ser- vices of an individual fug ? — The captain settles where the line shall be drawn among his boj's as to who shall have fags and who not. 4678. Does he consider himself at liberty to assign two fags to one boy ? — Yes. 4679. poes he consider himself at liberty to assign any number above two fags to himself, say three, four, or five ? — Y"es, as many as he pleases. 4680. He gets as many as he pleases, and gives to the other boys in rotation? — Yes; he would be limited in assigning the fags by the seniority of those to whom tliey were assigned. He would not give two fags to one particular boy, and only one to a boy who was above him iu seniority. 4681. Does it happen practically, according to that arrangement, that there are many boys who have the liberty of fagging, according to the school regulations, who have no individual fag at all ? — A good many have none at all. 4682. Is there any general mode adopted by the captain of a house in assigning fags apart from his own arbitrary discretion ? — Yes, I think he would go by seniority ; to a boy wanting a fag, and who had a considerable number of visitors or breakfast parties, probably he would give more fags than one. 4683. And, I presume, that a more studious boy, ■who did not give so many parties, would get fewer ? —Yes, and sometimes none at all. 4684. {Lord I^i/ttelton.) By that system some of the boys would get two fags and some none at all ? — Yes, the captain says sometimes that such and such a boy is not to have a fag. 4685. {Mr. Vaughaii.) When a master has two or thi-ee fags assigned to him, does he take them for ser- vice by rotation, or how does he choose them ? — The captain helps himself first. 4686. Does he not only choose his own fags, but appoint also his own friends' fags ? — No ; he only appoints his own fags, and fixes the number of masters. 4687. Then the next chooses ? — Yes, the next then chooses his own fag. 4688. And so on to the third ? — Yes. 4689. And that goes on until all the fags in the house are chosen ? — Yes. 4690. Does not the circumstance of one boy having a great many fags necessarily exempt those fags from much of the labour which they would have to undergo if they were assigned singly to individual boys ? — No, not always. 4691. {ACommissio>ier.) It depends, I suppose, upon the work which the master has to give them ? — Yes. 4692. {Mr.Vaiighan.) Is it the habit of the mas- ters to take particular fags, and for the captain of the school to assign to himself a number of fags for the purpose, not of using them, but of excusing them from fiigging altogether ? — No, I never heard of that. 4693. Nor lor the purpose of giving them a less portion of work than they would otherwise have had from other masters ? — I tiiink it might be done as a matter of favour. 4694. Is it a way of showing favour ? — Yes, it might be done in that way. 4695. Do you think the sj'stem of fagging, so exercised as it is throughout the whole school at present, and by so many persons, liable to less abuse than the monitorial system of discipline ? — Yes, I tliink it is liable to less abuse, and I tliink, on the whole, that the boys are very comfortable. 4696. Do you think that it inflicts a less amount of unjust suffering, in the course of the half year, to the little boys, than the monitorial power would pro- bably cause if it were exercised ? — I d.'ire say it is more inconvenient. The objection to the monitorial power was not on account of what the little boys suffered. 4697. I am only asking you for information on this point. Do you not think that there is a stronger ob- jection to the power of fagging than there would be to the monitorial power ? — I am not prepared to say, but I should suppose there would be a much gi-eater aggregate amount of mere inconvenience inflicted by fagging than by the exercise of monitorial power. 4698. {T^ord Lyttelton.) I presume that a bully' ■would be quite as much dreaded by those boys who were not his fags as by those who were, and probably he would have a good opportunity of exercising his bullying propensities upon boys who were not his fags ? — Yes, but a bully would be apt to direct liis bullying against a fifth form boy or any one, whatever might be his rank in the school. 4699. {Mr. Thompson,) If a boy were a notorious bully would he be deprived of the power of having fags ? — It might be done, and no doubt iu violent cases it would be done and approved of by the whole school. 4700. {Mr. Vaughan.') Is not the position of a boy who is captain of a house one ■which concentrates on him a great deal of influence and authority ? — I should not say authority unless he was specially empowered by the master to e-xercise it. He would have a great deal of influence no doubt, unless he were weak in character. 4701. Does not the present system place the other boys very much at his disposal ? — No ; the cap- tain of a house is the natural he.ad of the foot-biiU club, and they think more of that than anything else. They think it is a great misfortune to have a bad captain of the club. 4702. {Lord Lyttelton.) I presume that a boy ■would much sooner be a fag among other boys than he would be the sole fag of one boy ? — Generally. 4703. {Lord Devon.) With respect to the games of the school you s.ay that excellence at cricket is hardly compatible with first-rate scholarship. Do you say that upon the ground that it occupies so much time ? — It ought not to be so, but I thiuk a boy loses so much time at cricket in the summer, and is so absorbed in it, that it altogether throws him out in his scholar- ship. 4704. You say, " The number of boys at Eton who " avowedly aim at intellectual distinction is pro- " bably smaller than elsewhere in proportion to the " number of those who work rather for ajiprobation " than for honour and do their regular school work in " a modest spirit of dutifulness." To what is that owing. Is it owing to more time being spent in play ? — Yes, partly ; but we do less to stir up emula- tion, I believe. 4705. Do you think that more time is spent at play in the open air at Eton than is necessary for health? —Yes. 4706. Do you think that it ought to be curtailed? — Y'^es. I have expressed that opinion already in re- gard to the half holiday. U 3 ETON, W. Johnion, Esq, 10 July 1863. 158 PUBLIC SCHOOLS COMMISSIOX : —MINUTES OF EVIDE>X'E.: ETON. ir. Johnson, Esq. 10 July 1862, 4707. {Mr. Thompson.) Do you think that too much fuss is made about phiy ?— I think that perhaps too much importance is attached to it everywhere. 470S. Are you inclined to say on the whole that games occujiy riithcr too much time at Eton ? — Not as compared with other schools, but I think we waste a good deal of time at Eton. 4709. In what way ?— By the boys standing about doing nothing and talking to each other. 4710. Is it at all owing to the practice of going to school at short periods and several times a day. Do you think you would economise time more if you kept the boys in school for longer periods at one time than you do ?— I should not recommend their being much longer in school than they are at present, because the boys get restless. I think it of great advantage in our system that we do not sit long in school. Two half-hours taken separately are better than one hour together. 4711. Your system differs in that respect from that pursued in any other public school ? — I think it does. 4712. Do you mean that you should economise the time that is wasted by extra instruction out of school ? — I would rather have more fresh lessons than sit longer in school. 4713. {Mr. Vaughan.) Do you think, at any rate, that games are the best mode of employing the time which is not devoted to study ? — With respect to a great many of the boys, no doubt it is the best way of spending the time. A great many of them are better employed in playing their games than in any other way ; but there are other boys who ought to be reading in their own rooms. 4714. Supposing the time not to be spent in study, are not games the second best mode in which a boy can employ his time between school times ? — I hardly know in what other way he could employ the time, except in talking, unless you mean in taking a walk. 4715. I was thinking about walking in comparison ■with games ? — I should wish some boys to walk. Some boys spend a great deal of their spare time in drawing. 4716. {Lord LyUelton.) But is it not the fact that some boys take long walks ? — Some of them do, especially on Sundays. The stupidest thing they do is spending their time looking at the shop windows in the town. 4717. {Mr. Vaughan.) Do you think that is a habit which is pretty general ? — Yes ; we have too many petty shops close to the place. 4718. And you are of opinion that that constitutes a regular source of idleness to the school in a certain degree ? — Yes, I think it is unsatisfactory, on the whole, that they should be so much in the shops. 4719. {Lord Lgttelton.) Do you think that there would be any other inconvenience in the depart- mental system than that it would estrange one part of the school from the other ? — Yes. 4720. It seems clear that all payments should be made on one uniform system at Eton. There is one charge which is rather distinct from the rest ; that Is. leaving money, whether it is paid to the tutor or the Head Master. Do you see any objection to the pre- sent system ? — Yes, I think it is objectionable, cer- tainly. 4721. Would it be better, in your opinion, that the charges should be made under one regular system, and not in the way of leaving money, as it exists at present ? — Yes, it would be much better, I think. 4722. Have you any opinion whether it would be desirable that any limit should be fixed to the num- ber of boys ? — I think there is a natural physical limit which keeps us in. 4723. What is that ? — The amount of accommoda- tion, and of room in chapel. 4724. Would it not be possible, to extend that far more ? — More houses could be built and more room could be found for playground. I think the river would be liable to be crowded. 4725. Looking at the social state of the boys, do you think that if more boys were allowed to como to Eton, that is to say, if the numbers were con- siderably increased, that there would not be a tendency to break up the school into coteries and parties ? — No ; I think the games would prevent that. 4726. I think it has been mentioned, that formerly the collegers and oppidans were never seen walking together ? — That is not the case now. They are not quite on such terms as never to be seen together. The cricketing and boating bring them together. If there is any limitation of the number of boys in the school desired, I think it ought to be carried out in this way that the boys should not be allowed to go into the school at any age, however young. 4727. {T^ord Devon.) Is there not some danger that in so large a school as that of Eton, the mind of the Head Master, who has to regulate the whole sys- tem can hardly embrace the whole extent of the school. He may know what is going on in a school of 450, but cannot very well do so in a school of 850 ? — Perhaps not. 4728. Can he exercise an influence over the dif- ferent classes through the masters who teach them, can he be intimate with all ? — No ; I think there are at pi-esent infinitely too many to enable him to do that. 4729. Do you think that there is any objection, if this institution increased, that is to say, if the number of the boys went on increasing to an unlimited extent ? — I do not see any inconvenience that now arises from having 700 boys in the upper school, which did not exist when there were only 500. 4730. {3Ir. Vaughan.) Do you see no difficulty whatever, except a physical difficulty, in extending the school ? — No, I am not prepared to point out any. 4731. Would any difficulty in providing space for games operate also to produce what may be termed a loitering kind of idleness, in contradistinction to strenuous idleness ? — I suppose so. 4732. Would not their increase of numbers tend to makeloitering a characteristic of the school? — I cannot say ; we have a considerable number of boys now who are content to do nothing at all but look on at others playing. 4733. Do the numbers in the school operate un- fiivourably in this way, that the boys get to the top of the school without coming under the notice of the Head Master, and they might even leave the school without doing so ? — Yes, I suppose that would be an evil if the Head Master differed very much from another class master. If Eton were presided over by a man who was appointed from his marked superiority over every one else, it would be a serious loss to the pupil. But the fact is that the Head Master at Eton is little more than primus inter pares. The difference is not nearly as great at Eton, between one of the senior masters and Head Master, as it is at some other schools, or as one not acquainted with the subject might expect. 4734. {Lord I^yttellon.) Do you know what is the difference between a Head Master at Eton, and a Head Master at Rugby or Harrow, in respect to the relative position which he occupies as compared with that of assistant masters ? — No, I have no knowledge upon that point, except from what I have heard or have read in books. 4735. {Lord Devon.) With reference to the system of instruction, or upon any other point, do you wish to add anything to what you have stated in your written evidence ? — No, I do not know that I can. 4736. If there are any details with respect to the school system, either in respect to instruction or general discipline, we shall be glad to have them added to your evidence at any convenient time ? — I do wish to say somewhat more distinctly than I have here, that I think it is of great importance that we should study modern subjects through the French language, so as to put it, in some degree, upon the same footing as Greek and Latin. 4737. {Mr. Thompson.) Do you think that there is too much repetition ? — Yes. PUBLIC SCHOOLS COMMISSION : — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 150 4738. You think that three repetitions in one day are too much ? — Yes. 4739. {Mr. Vuiighan.') Would you favour us with the reason wliich you have for being .lo desirous for the cultivation of the French language ? — I tliink it is the only way of making sure that the boys know their own language. They cannot use up the English language — that is to saj', they cannot prac- tise the English language completely when they are translating from Latin and Greek. What I should wish to see done by the introduction of French is to secure a greater facility in the composition of English. You can use up the English language in translating French. You cannot express yourself on questions of natural philosophy, law, or political economy, very conveniently in Latin or Greek, whereas you might in French. How could you expect a boy to give an account of the construction of a barometer, or any popular information upon a particular science, in Latin ? 1 should like to see these things done by means of writing French essays instead of Latin. 4740. You require some language in which nuHlern ideas are conveyed, in order to enable tlie boys to exhaust the terminology of the English language in translation ? — Yes ; and, secondly, to express all sorts of modern thoughts. It is not merely the terminology of the English language that is to be considered, but the best mode of expressing thoughts about modern things. 4741. French, do you mean, is the best mode ? — Yes ; translating French into English, and English into French. If we wanted, for instance, to intro- duce a boy to the subject of the French revolution, we could get him to write an English essay out of a French book, or to translate into French from English books. 4742. {Mr. Thompson.) Is your opinion of the expediency of introducing Frencli in that way founded on experience ? — I find that it very much embarrasses the boys to have to express modern thoughts and ideas in the Latin language. We cannot set exercises on those subjects upon which we should wish to set tlicm. 4743. {Mr. Vaughaii.) Could they not write about these topics in English ? — That would be simply to copy out from an English bonk. 4744. Are you not of opinion that it is very de- sirable to carry on education at Eton on the princi- ple that the mind of the boys should be trained rather than on auy other principle ? — Yes. 4745. Uo you think that to add to the Eton education only the knowledge of an additional lan- guage which as a language does not bestow an additional discipline on the mind, as other subjects might, would not be somewhat opposed to the prin- ciple to which you have referred ? — I think that additional training could be given by studying the French language on high classical principles. 4746. Do you believe it would be possible so to apply yourprincipleastoteach them through thatlanguageall which they could learn at Eton with respect to physical science ? — I think that all the.physical science which we can teach could be taught by means of reading and writing French. I do not think that we could teach physical science so regularly as to give them any- thing like a good practical knowledge of any particu- lar science. We can only give them scientific infor- mation, and that in my opinion should be done in this way. 4747. You do not think that any systematic in- struction in physical science directly in their own language by means of lectures and examinations combined could be given more elfectually ? — Some few of them take great interest in the lectures and experiments, but the great bulk of them do not. 4748. I am not speaking of what the case may be now, but do you not think that that may be achieved by an alteration of the present system ? — I under- stand that all the attempts which have been hitherto made to discipline the minds of boys through teaching them physical science have failed. 4749. Do you think it has been sufficiently tried at public schools to give you a fair opportunity of arriving at a sound conclusion upon the subject ? — Perhaps not. 4750. Do you think that there is any certainty that the experiment with regard to physical science has been made in the best manner, and that it has failed as a means of education ? — I am not aware of any man of eminence having tried it. TVith reference to the ahore Ecidcncc, Mr. Johnson afterwards addressed the following Letter to the Secretary ; — King's College. Cambridge, Sir, Nov. 20, 1862. When I was examined before the Royal Com- missioners on Public Schools, I was told by the Chairman that, if I had anything to say in correction or explanation of my evidence, I might write to the Secretary. When questioned by Mr. Halford Vaughan on subjects which had not been indicated in my printed answers, that is to say, on the teaching of music, and on the teaching of physical science, I did not point out, and I therefore wish now to be allowed to suggest, what I conceive to be the most obvious difficulty that hinders the admission of these studies into a school course. The difficulty is, that we cannot make either music or science a subject of universal examination ; nor do I believe that we could allow certain boys to take up certain optional subjects for examination in lieu of other subjects without running the risk of unfairness. I would suggest that the studies, which alone can bo expected permanently to flourish in a school like ours (in which the sense of obligation is far stronger than the love of knowledge, and the wish to satisfy a tutor and a father is far stronger than mere emulation), are those which can be, with infinite variation of degree, made common to all, or nearly all, boys. It is not worth while to show that music cannot be practised universally. But with regard to science, I should be very sorry to be misunderstood by Mr. Halford Vaughan. I conceive that there are two ways of approaching a branch of science. One may try to study a science so as to master it, or one may be content with a sort of literary appreciation of its leading theory, its his- tory, and its relations to other departments of know- ledge. Botany is perhaps the most likely science to be introduced into a school. I think it desirable, but I would trust to chance for it, that a school should contain a practical botanist ; such a man would probably find out boys who had a turn for botanical observation, and would help tliem. But this would remain an optional pursuit, and the time required would be taken out of play hours. On the other hand, it is possible, without going into the fields, to acquire some knowledge of the parts of a plant, the principles of classification, and the laws of vegetable physiology. A standard book in English or French on this subject might with great advantage be introduced into the list of school books, and in this boys might be examined. A similar distinction applies, I think, to chemistry. To become a chemist, one must attend laboratory lectures. This can be done by hardly more than six or eight at a time ; the expense is great, the loss of exercise and air would at Eton be thought very serious. But a great number of boys might acquire, by attending a course of 12 lectures, and reading a manual, a view of the chemical constitution of the world which would be in the highest degree con- ducive to the enlargement of their minds. I would go on to say much the same of geology, but that experience has convinced me that the theory U 4 ETON. W, Johnson, Esq. 10 July 1862. 160 PUBLIC SCHOOLS COMMISSION: —MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. ETON. IV. Johnson, Ksq. 10 July 1862. of geology caiiuot be received by mere boys without a violent disturliance of their religious belief. Yet I should be inclined to make Cuvier's famous essay one of the French classics to be read and got up for examination. My zeal for laying the general theories of the physical sciences before schoolboys is limited only by the wish to reserve something new for them to be- come acquainted with at the Universities. But, whatever I attempted, I would keep steadily in view the distinction between science and scientific information ; and it is the latter only which I would incorporate in the system of compulsory school ex- jiminations. I have one more point on which I wish to set myself right with Mr. Halford Vaughan. I was drawn into speaking of Rugby, and at the time I did Adjourned not think of stating the source of such little knowledge as I had of that school. I lived in great intimacy and very frequent com- munication with two Kugby men, one a Fellow of Brasenose, Oxford, the other a Fellow of Trinity College, Cambridge, who were private tutors at Eton in 1847-8. From them I heard a great deal of Rugby as it was under Dr. Arnold, which they were constantly com- paring with what they saw of Eton. I formed in those years the opinion, which all experience and knowledge since acquired have con- firmed, that the monitorial system at the best is bad ; a snare to the boys who are intrusted with power, and a miserable substitute for the action of schoolmasters. I remain. Sir, Your obedient servant, Mountague Bernard, Esq. William Johnson. Victoria Street, Saturday, 12th July 1862. PRESENT liev. C. C. James. 12 July 1862. Earl of Clarendon. Earl of Devon. Lord Lyttelton. Sir Stafford Northcote. H, Halford Vaughan, Esq. The earl OF CLARENDON in the Chair. The Rev. Charles Caldecott James, M.A., examined. -Seven years 4751. {Lord Clarendon.) You are an assistant classical master at Eton ? — Yes. 47o2. How long have you been so ?- and a half. 4753. In your statement respecting the College, you say that you should see no reason why the number of collegers should not be augmented to 100, except that the Provost and Fellows ought better to fulfil their duties towards the present 70 by feeding them better and paying for their tuition ? — That is most decidedly my opinion. 4754. The evidence we have received is that their feeding has been very greatly improved, and their condition is in all respects ameliorated ? — Greatly ameliorated, but there is very great room for still further improvement, I think. 4755. Will you give us details about that ; how are they fed ? — I can only say what was in College in my time, which I believe was almost the same in point of diet as at the present time. 4756. I suppose that is 10 or 12 years ago ? — Twelve years ago. 4757. {Lord Lyttelton.') Are you sure that there has been no improvement since then ? — There is an improvement so far, that the College furnish bread and butter for breakfast and tea ; but what is pro- vided is the same as before, I think. 4758. {Lord Clarendon.) Will you tell us exactly what it is ? — Briefly, then, I should describe it thus : there is plenty of food, and it is fit for strong and healthy boys, but it is my opinion that weak and un- healthy boys do not thrive in College, and that I think on the whole the condition of the collegers in physique is inferior to what it used to be when I was in College myself. I think that the physical power and physical strength of the 70 collegers, taken as a body, is inferior to the strength of the 70 collegers when I was there, and I attribute it to this ; they are a rather more select body than they used to be. When I first went into College we pretty nearly filled up the num- ber of 70, having previously been very much below it. When my brother left, 22 years ago, I do not think there were many more than 35 in College. Those who left at the election then diminished in number to almost half. I will not be particular about the iinmber, but that is my impression. When I went to I was two years in chamber before the estar blishment of the new buildings in 1846, which was a great era of improvement in the College. Before that time every colleger, as you are aware, had a room in the town. The College gave us dinner and supper, that is to say, there was a supper in hall, which some partook of and some did not. It was not at all of an appetising nature, and every boy in College, at least the sixth form and the liberty and the fifth form, had a supper in College as well, for which all except the sixth form and liberty had to send out. When the new buildings came in, this supper was done away with. It was merely a supper by ourselves then. That was done avyay with and the same supper provided for the collegers in the hall at eight o'clock went on, and now, to this day I believe, the same supper is provided for them at a quarter to nine. My opinion generally with regard to the diet in College is this : that a good strong boy, especially when he is nearly the top of the school, and gets good slices of leg and haunch, and gets nicely helped just as he pleases, will thrive; but I consider the smaller and more delicate boys, such as you are more likely to get a greater number of by the present system of compe- tition, boys rather below par in bodily strength, certainly do not thrive. My opinion on that subject is thoroughly grounded on the fact that they have not competed with the oppidans on terms of equality in their games for several years past. In the annual matches at football and cricket the collegers have not competed with the oppidans on such terras of equality as when I was there myself. 4759. {Lord Clarendon.) Would you attribute that to the insufficient quantity or the inferior quality of the food they have ? — Not exactly either, but I think it is the monotony of it palls on a delicate boy. I .am quite of opinion there is plenty for a strong healthy boy, especially if he is near the top of the school, and of course he can get as much as he likes. There is plenty of roast mutton for the smaller ones, but they do not like it five days in the week ; besides which you must consider this, the sixth form have a haunch. There is, I believe, about a sheep and a half served up every day, the sixth form have the haunch, and the upper boys at each table have the legs ; the loins and necks come next, that leaves the three shoulders, and the boys near the bottom never get PUBLIC SCHOOLS COiDIISSION : — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. IGl nnytlilup' bat the shoulders, the fattest part. I never think of puttiiifj the shoulder before the boj-s in my own house, I should never dream of such ii thing, they would turn up their noses ut it. When 1 was in College nij'self, and I believe it is the case now, the boys at the bottom used to get nothing but this. Then, in my time, we had on Sundays roast beef, on Wednesday boiled beef, and at present the boiled beef on Wednesday has been changed to roast l)eef, because they do not like the boiled beef very much. I find boys in my own house are very fond of boiled beef, but certainly we did not like it nnndi in College at that time. That is my general opinion respecting the diet in College; that there is plenty of good suffi- cient diet for a stomach which is a good strong healthy stomach; but that as the College by competition of course get a number of boj-s rather inferior in phy- sique, I do not consider that they do thrive so nmch as they used to. I was talking to one of the Fel- lows about that the other day. He seemed rather astonished at ray view, but I am quite sure it is a view shared in by others, and who are of the same opinion as myself. 4760. {Lord Lyttelton.') It is a fault easily re- medied, and without any additional expense ? — I should think so. Then, you see, they have no pudding at dinner, except on Sundays. The din- ner is nothing but meat; the dinner merely consists of a helping of mutton, and there is plenty of bread, more bread, in fact, than you want. There is half a pound of bread to each at dinner and supper. Boys do not consume that quantity. There is plenty of beer, and the beer is ver}' good, but there is nothing to eat except bread and meat, and if you do not like your helping of meat, there is nothing for you. 4761. Only once a week pudding ? — That is all, there is a plum pudding on Sundays ; but, I believe the College have now and then given them some tarts, but that is quite recent. 4762. {Lord Clarendon.) There was a sum of money left bj- Godolphin, it was for the purpose of giving them such things ? — That I do not know any- thing about. That is a College secret. I never heard of the thing before till I saw it in this evidence. Ever3'thiug with respect to the College is as secret as it possibly can be. We never heard a single syllable about any one of these matters until we saw them printed yesterday in this evidence, 4763. How long have puddings been allowed ; were they allowed in your time ? — Yes ; but only on Sunday. 4764. {Mr. Vaitghan.) How often, in your opinion, ought it to be given in the week ? — My idea of a boy's dinner is meat and pudding every day, and at supper too. 4765. At least three times a week you think it ought to be given ? — In my own house I should never think of giving a boy dinner without pudding as well as meat, nor supper without either pudding or bread and cheese, besides meat. With respect to the monotony of the diet, I find in my own house that boys do not like mutton, we will say, five times a ■week. 4766. I suppose it is a confessed thing among persons who have attended to diet, that some variety is almost necessary to a perfect state of health ? — Yes. You understand quite what I said about the physique of collegers. I do not think that the diet is insufficient. I think there is plenty of it. The fact is this : it is commonly believed that the sta- tutes say the College is to give a sufficient quantity of good mutton, and there was never any departure from that, until I think it was when Provost Hodgson first became Provost, they introduced the beef twice a week, and it is now mutton five days in the week, and beef twice ; Mr. Paul states, occasionally poultry. On Founder's day there are turkeys given, which I believe were given them by the then King George III. I rather think it is provided for them by the Crown ; that was the tradition about it in my time. We also had fowls on June 4, and Election Monday. 1. 4767. But even in tlie days when mutton is served to them, and supposing the system of the legs and shoulders being served on one day was still preserved, I suppose it would be no real hardship on the upper boys a little to invert the order, so that the difterent purts of the sheep might go a litl le more ehangealily to ditferent parts of the school on ditferent days ? — It would be no great hardship, but you would not get it done, be- cause the upper boys would be certain to get the best joints. 4768. Is it not carved for them ? — The sixth form carve their own meat. 4769. Could not the joint be put on the table as it is at College tables. In my time, at Christ Church, the joint was put on the table, and wc were restricted to the joint that actually was put on the table ? I think where there is a certain amount of self- government, as there is in College by the sixth form, it would very soon get back to the old plan. 4770. There appears no remedy for that but to serve the primcjoint to the whole school ? — Precisely, that is just the very thing. 4771. {T^ord Devon.) There is a medical attendant to the College, I suppose ? — That is left to e.ach parent ; each parent employs whatever medical man he likes. 4772. Is there no medical man who regularly looks over the College at certain times ? — No ; I think if a boy is ill thej' send for the medical man who attends him. If not, I suppose most likely Mr. Ellison would go if his parents had not ex])ressed any preference. 4773. {Lord Li/ttclton.) They are just like the opjiidans in that respect ? — Precisely. 4774. {Lord Devon.) Is Mr. Ellison a surgeon at Eton ?— At Windsor. 4775. Practically, is it the case that he does attend or is there a variety of medical men ? — There is a matron in College, a woman whose business it is to look after theboj-s who are ill. I should not wish to express much of an opinion about it, because I do not know much about it. 4776. My question went merely to this, whether the view you take as to the want of adaptation of the diet to the weaker boys is shared by the medical man ; I mean whether you have conferred on this point with any medical man and found a concurrence of opinion on his part ? — No, I have not mentioned it to any medical man. 4777. You do not know whether the view you have now expressed is taken by any medical man ? — No. 4778. iSupposing we wished to have an opinion on the subject, to what medical man should you refer us ? — Dr. Ellison is the man who knows most about Eton, lie has the largest; share of practice, and I think his opinion would be worth taking. 4779. {J^ord I^yttelton.) The College pays for medical attendance, I think, does it not ? — I do not know at all ; I should suspect it would not ; it is not the custom in the school generally. 4780. {Lord Clarendon.) I think they pay for them in the sanatorium ? — The sanatorium is not " in College ;" they have two or three rooms fitted up for their use ; there is a sanatorium for the whole school, only for fever cases. 4781. Do you mean nothing but fever cases are put into the sanatorium ? — No ; it is only for scarlatina and diphtheria. 4782. And yet each oppidan pays 1 1. As. towards it ? — Yes. You probably know the history of the sanatorium ? 4783. There is no objection to your telling us any- thing you think proper on the subject ? — About 20 years ago if a boy had a fever or anything of that sort he either had to be kept in the house where he was, or the tutor had to runabout Windsor or Slough to find some lodging-house to take him in, and in consequence of that there was little check to the spread of fever, and if it got into the school it spread very much directly ; but since the sanatorium has been erected it has very wonderfully checked fever, because most cases of fever we have had at Eton since I have ETON. licv. C. C. James. 12 July 1862. 162 PUBLIC SCHOOLS COMMISSTON :— MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. ETON. Rev. C. C. James. 12 July 1862. been there as master have been brought from home. Hardly any cases wore literally bred and engendered in the place. In almost every case where there has been scarlet fever, it has been begun by somebody who has been in contact with fever at home. That pro- bably has not been mentioned to the tutor or master of the house, and about a fortnight after he comes back it begins to show itself. If you send him oft" to the sanatorium it is chocked at once. I do not think the sanatorium has ever been full since it was built. It will accouunodate about 24. Nothing is sent there except fever cases. In a case of small pox I remember a boy being sent there, and the Head Master spoke very severely to the tutor who sent him there, and now there are one or two little houses adjoining the sanatorium for that purpose ; and if there should be any other case of infectious disease, not scarlet fever, they would be sent there. I think it is a most ad- mirable institution. With regard to the payment of 1/. 4*. for it, the history is this : It was built, and I do not think the accounts were kept very accurately for a long time. Since Dr. Goodford was Head Master lie lias kept it very carefully indeed, and under him the debt upon it has been reduced from 6,000?., the expense of building it, of which not a farthing was paid before, to 3,000/. I think when ho gave up the Head Mastership the debt on the sana- torium was 3,000/. 4784. Was the building undertaken without any funds for it then ? — The building v>'as undertaken on the consent of the Provost and Head Master to tax the school 1/. 4*. every boy every year. The consent of the parent of every boy then at Eton was gained to that arrangement by a letter from the Head Master at the time. 4785. How long has that p.ayment been made ? — • About 20 years. 4786. That is nearly 1,000/. a year ?— When the school was very full it would be so. When Dr. Goodford became Head Master he audited and carried the accounts on regularly. No published statement has ever been printed or circulated among the masters of the accounts at all. 4787. I suppose there must have been 10,000/. or 12,000/. raised from the parents of the boys to pay for this buildiug which cost 6,000/., and of which 3,000/. is still unpaid ? — Yes ; that is literally the case. 4788. What has become of the money ?— I have nothing to do with it ; I know notliing about it. I I have never seen a single report or balance sheet, or anything of the sort. My opinion is, that any persons who undertake funds of that sort ought to circulate printed statements of them every year. It never has been done ; Dr. Goodford is the only man who knows anything about it. He is the only person in the world who can tell you anything about it. 4789. {Lord Devon.) When was the building completed ? — I should say, speaking from memory, somewhere about 1845. 4790. That was in Dr. Ilawtrey's time ? — Yes, but I may not be accurate about the year. I cannot undertake to say, but it was when I was a small boy at Eton — about 1845, or it may be 1843. Dr. Goodford cannot give you a statement of it ; he can only give it you in his time. I am not saying things which I know from my personal knowledrre, because the balance sliect never has been circulated among us. I have often suggested that it ought to be, but it never has been, and a little time ago ■when the proposition was made about the new buildings that was just the very thing many men spoke about. We were called together by the Head Master to ask our consent to taxation for the new building. We s.aid at once we should like to know the state of affairs of the sanatorium, and he said, " When I came I found a debt of 6,000/. upon " it, and of course the interest had been paid to the " builder to this time, 5/. per cent, on the 6,000/., " and I have kept the accounts very accurately, and " now 3,000/. of the principal has been paid off, ixnd I " am in hopes very soon of reducing the charge to " about half,— from 1/. 4*. to 12s." That was with reference to a proposition which wag, I believe, at first consented to, but afterwards rescinded, with respect to taxing the school to defray part of the expense of the new school buildings. 4791. What was that pi-oposal ? — It was proposed, but it was dropped afterwards. It was found that men were not willing to come forward with handsome subscriptions to support what the masters considered a very objectionable plan. The first plan did not meet with the sympathy of the residents of the place, and therefore the tutors did not seem to take it up much. The public found the tutors did not think much of it, and therefore the subscriptions came forward very slowly indeed. Then the Head Master called us together, and said to us that it appeared the thing was likely to fall to the ground unless we did something ourselves. 4792. You arc speaking of the new buildings for the schools ? — Yes, which are now in progress and nearly finished. He said the public did not come forward in the manner he hoped. The fact was, the first plan was a very objectionable one, and we did not want to see it carried out at all, and would much rather go on as we were. Then he proposed we should give up our salaries for five years, and said, for his part he was willing to do so. We said we would rather talk about it. We said, in the first place, we should like to know about the sana- torium money, and then he made that statement which I have just made to you, that when he became Head Master (he could give no account of it before), there was a debt of 6,000/. owing on the building, and during his Head Mastership he had paid off half of it, and there were still the standing expenses of the building to be met, and the interest on tlie re- mainder, and he was in hopes of very soon being able (probably at once, if the extra tax had been laid on the school for the school buildings) to diminish the payment to one half. I imagine the current expenses would be met by fees of 3*. 6d. or 5s., or something of that sort. When a boy is in the sanatorium he pays besides. Then there are ex- penses — the rates and taxes and all that sort of thing. I should think 400/. would cover everything ; then there is the interest of the 3,000/., — 150/., which is 550/. Ten years ought to extinguish it altogetlier. 4793. {Lord Claretidon.) What answers did the masters give with reference to their salaries. Did they give them up ? — Almost all of us felt it was a matter of necessity, and we were willing to do it. We said we would give up our salaries on condi- tion we had a voice in the erection of the building, and a committee, appointed of ourselves, were con- sulted about the building, and about the site. We said we did not wish to give up our houses for a liideously ugly buildiug, and a very inconvenient one on the site they proposed, and the first thing we hoped would be, that the College would reconsider the site, and have fresh plans, which was done. We nominated a committee, with whom the College con- ferred once or twice about it, and as we were to be the body to contribute to the taxes, we thought we had a right to be consulted about it. One of the masters very generously gave up his garden for the purpose. Mr. Wayte said he was willing to give up his garden for the building if they would build him a new house further at the back, which is being done. 4794. {Lord Lyttelton.) For how long were the salaries to be given up ? — For four or five years ; I will not be certain which. 4795. {Lord Devon.) Four years are stated in the evidence ? — Yes, that raises altogether, I think, the amount of 4,000/. from the Head Mastei-, lower masters, and assistants. 4796. {Lord Clarendon.) Do you know in what proportion the Provost and Fellows contributed to that ?— They gave 1,000/. 4797. £1,000 between them ? — Yes, and they gave individually as well. They have come forward hand- PUBLIC SCHOOLS COMMISSION: — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 1C3 Bomcly about it, and the general Eton public have come forward as well now. The Queen and the kite Prince Consort <;ave subscriptions. 4798. {Lord Devon.) Does tiie present site meet the views of the great body of tlie masters ? — Quite. 4790. As to the arrnngementa of the buikling, are you s.itisticd with theui ? — Yes, as far as we could judge, looking over them. 4800. As to the size and position ? — Yes, they are handsome rooms. 4801. {Mr. l^aiiffifiaii.) Do j'ou know the system of examination under which they are elected to the schohirshiiis, or rather the system under which the scholarship is awarded ? — The scholarship is awarded by competition. It is open to boj's from 8 to Ki. 4S02. We have understood that, but we have le.irned lliat there is something a little peculiar in the mode in which the examination is conducted, and in the mode in which the scholarship is awarded; that is to sa}-, that it is an easier thing for a boy of a very tender age to succeed than it is for a boy of a more advanced age ? — The statutes say first of all, that boys are to be admitted between 8 and 12 ; and then, in another ])lace they say, between 8 and 16, and the interpretation the electors put on that is, that prefer- ence is to be given to a boy under 12 rather than above. 480.S. Is it not a consequence of that that there is H great struggle amongst the lesser boys, under 12 years old or about 12 years old, for the scholarship ? — Boys at Eton do not try for these scholarships really at heart. A boy who is once an oppidan will generally not go into College if ho can possibly help it. 4804. I meant that there is a great competition amongst boj's of a tender age independently of their connexion with Eton ? — Yes, they are urged on closely. 480.5. I wished to know whether the etfect of that was that they came there in a rather debilitated state ? — I should say it was so to a certain extent. 4806. Have you had your attention drawn to con- sider how far that is salutary, that competitive ex- amination at a very early period ? — It is tjie only way of giving the thing fairly. Yon must give it by competition. It will not do to make these things matters of private patronage. 4807. Certainly not, but by arranging it so that the competition is rather deferred to a later age, do von think anytliing would be gained ? — So that boys should not be admitted to the foundation till they were after 12? 4808. Till they were past 12, and were near 14 or 15, do you think anything would be gained by allowing them to establish their health, befoi-e they encountered severe woik ? — No dcubt it is much better a boy should work for a thing of that sort when he is 12 or 13, than when he is 9 or 10. Then, on the other hand, boys are often more willing to work when 9 or 10, than when 12 or 14. The exr amination is conducted very justly and fidrly ; but I consider the stand.ird set is too high. 4809. It is your opinion, that for every age at which they offer themselves, the standard is rather too high ? — Yes. 4810. -Is it not a necessary consequence of that there is an undesirable strain put upon them to meet it ? — I think it is. I think the standard is this : from 10^ till 12, the boys .are examined for fourth form •work ; at the age of 12, in remove work ; and at the age of 13 and above, in fifth form work. I am of opinion myself that these ages might be lowered a full year with advantage. 4811. {Lord Lyttelton.) Some boys of no great physical strength come to the College, do you think that they often impair their health at Eton by over- work ? — You get by competition now from the schools a boy who has been crammed up, .and worked up very often tremendously, and he will very likely be a deli- cate boy, of a nervous temperament, and the proba- bility is he will be urged to distinguish himself as much as possible, as all his ehautiis in life depend on ETOX. Ucv. C. C.James. wliat he does, and as a matter of fact, I think most decidedly that the smaller half of the collegers are inferior to their schoolfellows among the oiipidaus in 4812. And you attribute it jiartly to th.at that they are rather tempted to overwork themselves ? — Partly. ^2 Jaly 1862, They are boj's of active minds, and their minds are ' more active than their bodies. 4813. Taking all the combined eases to which you allude, of the physical inferiority that you think m.ay be observed in the collegers, has that any etfect on the social condition of the school. Does the fact that the one class is less a|)t for physical exertion tend to keep the collegers and the oppidans apart at all ? — They do not pLay cricket so well as they used. 4814. The collegers ? — Yes ; and iu consequence of that, fewer collegers play in the upper club than formerl}-. 481o. And the consequence of that is, there is less practical communication between them ? — To that extent there would be. 4816. Are you accpuiinted with the general system of life and discipline iu the College ? — I was in College myself about six years. 4817. As peculiar to the College, and distinct from the sj'stem iu tlie boarding-houses ? — Y'es. 4818. Have you any opinion as to the relative merits of the two systems ? — I most unhesitatingly give my opinion in favour of the system in our own houses. 4819. Will you explain the system in College? — • As matters go at present, I do not think any great tyranny is or can be exercised by the sixth form or liberty, as in College. I was in College before there was an assistant master in College. I was in College two years before that, and then the sixth form and lil)erty had ten times the power they have now ; but besides this there was a regularly organized system of the bigger fifth form, who had Iieen in College some time, taking advantage of the smaller fifth form, who had onlyjust entered. There then was a regular .system of bullying of the new collegers, who were called " Jews," liy the oU boys, who had been in two or three years ; that not applying to the sixth form and liberty, but, at the same time, the sixth form and liberty did many acts which now would never be heard of The etiPect of the presence of the masters among them has been immense. Many ways in which discipline was kept up in those d.ays are now unheard of. 4820. Has not the monitorial system been dying out in College of late years ? — Certainly. 4821. And has that been owing to the presence cf the master ? — Completely. 4822. Has the presence of the master brought him so near to them as that he touches them at all points of their life as it were ? — Y'^es, I think he is very much in the position to the boys in the College that I am with regard to the boys in my house. 4823. Not more ? — No, it is impossible to be much more. 4824. He does not stand iu that near and close relation to the whole school that the monitor stands to the rest of the school by any means ? — Wlio do you mean by " he " ? 4825. The master in College? — He is in the position of an assistant master. He is held responsible for the discipline of the collegers. 4826. Il.as his presence had tvro eifects, one on the usurped power of the fifth form and one on the legitimate power of the sixth form ? — Yes, it is very questionable whether what was exercised iu College in my time by the sixth fomi could be called legitimate power under any ciroumstances. It was merely this, if any flagrant cases of vice or immorality came before the master, the sixth form would be held responsible, and, therefore, to prevent that among the fifth form they simply indulged themselves in whatever they pleased, and did not allow the fifth form to do so without their permission ; that was the nature of tho legitimate authority. X 2 164 PUBLIC SCHOOLS COMMISSION :— MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. ETON. Rev. C. C. James. 12 July 1862. 4827. Are we to understand, therefore, that what- ever tyranny was exercised by the sixth form was not exercised by them in harsh or excessive discharge of their monitorial functions simply as sixth form, but in excess of that, as the strongest boys there ? — The instances of tyranny I h.ive known exercised by the sixth form in College have generally been not matters of discipline, but matters in which they fiincy their personal pride was at stake. ' 4828. As a class or as individuals? — As indi- viduals ; but that 1 believe, I cannot say for certain, has almost entirely died out in College now. Before the new buildings, if a boy had oifended a sixth- form boy, he was had down to the sixth-form table, and thrashed by the boy whom he had otFended. 4829. Did the presence of the whole class, as a class, act as a check on the individual, or did the esprit de corps on this and other occasions prevent this ? — Some would say the effect of his being in the presence of others would be a check for his not doing it severely. My opinion is that it was rather an incen- tive to him to acquit himself well on a big boy, and after that he was what is called "kept," which was that his life was made a burden to him as far as possible by the sixth form, by more severe punish- ments set on any occasion whenever he was late for a moment at lock-up or hall, and little things of that sort. From the fact of the hall not being entirely under the sixth form, as it used to be, but of the master of the College, it is now no aifair of the sixth form if a boy is late or not. Again, with regard to the sitting in the rooms, part of the " keeping " used to consist of making you sit in chamber after two on Sunday. That is now made impossible, from the fact of each boy having separate rooms. I think that has died out now. I believe the collegers do not understand the meaning of the word " keeping " now. 4830. Should you regard that the tyranny which you impute to them as naturally incident to the moni- torial authority which they had ? — I should say so. I should say the monitorial authority is exceedingly likely to degenerate into sometliing of that. 4831. We have heard in our inquiry into other schools different reports as to the effect of the moni- torial authority. Do you trace the abuse of the monitorial authority as it existed in College to any- thing that was peculiar to the College; or do you think it is such as would manifest itself wherever it existed, in all schools ? — I think it such .ns is exceedingly likely to manifest itself under similar circumstances, which are simply these, — the collegers were left en- tirely to themselves, completely and entirely. There was their dinner provided in hall at two, and supper at eight, and the Head Master came in to call absence and to read prayers in the evening, and perhaps he came into long chamber and called absence there in the course of the evening, but that was all. The collegers were left entirely to themselves, and I am of opinion that under simil.ar circumstances similar results probably will follow. No doubt the present improved state of society in questions of drinking and other habits of that sort would render it less flagrant than it used to be, but still I think it is exceedingly likely. 4832. {Lord Clarendoi/.) You state that the Fellows can hardly be said to fulfil their duties by not pay- ing for the tuition. Do you think they are charged more than statutaldy they ought to be ? — I think the founder intended the 70 foundation scholars to have their education entirely gratis ; no doubt. 4833. What do you conceive to be the expense of a scholar now ? — The necessary expense, putting aside clothes and money ? 4834. Not including clothes and money ? — I should say 251. might cover it with a very economical boy. A boy in College cannot be in College without paying his tutor 10/. lOs., and I apprehend "the founder intended the collegers to receive their education and pay nothing for tuition. They pay 51. 5s. to the College for various matters, for which I think they used to pay 15/. to the dames. Till quite recently, till within the last four or five years, every colleger belonged to some dame's house, to which he went if he was ill, and he had a right to a room there when he was ill. There was a charge for it, but still the dame was compelled to have the room whenever he wanted it. That was the principal item charged under the head of battels, and a certain amount of the washing and various little matters which must be done by some- body ; the boy used to pay the dame, I think it was 15 guineas. But now the College do all that for him, and find a room for him to go to when he is ill, and they do a certain amount of washing, for which they charge 5/. 5s. 4835. {Lord Li/ttelton.) Are you sure that it is in the statutes that there shall be a certain amount of mutton : I cannot find it ? — I will not undertake to say. I think it says the diet shall consist of the best mutton that can be got. I think so ; but I will not bo certain. I dare say I could find it. 4836. {3Ir. Vaughan.) Have you studied the statutes ? — No ; I cannot say I have very much. It is stated how much is to be allowed for their com- mons. 4837. {Lord Lyttelton.) That is in money ? — Yes. I cannot find it ; but that is the common idea on the subject. 4838. {Sir Stafford Nm-thcote.) There is an earlier part of your answer to No. 2, on which no questions have been put. I see you say that, with a view to providing superannuation, you would give assistant masters a paramount claim to the fellowships, in- creasing the number ? — That is pretty nearly as in practice. 4839. And that you would relieve the Fellows from all duties and responsibilities, and make the fellowships entirely sinecures. Have you considered the question of trying to make the fellowships more useful for the working of the school ; making the Fellows take any part in the duties of the school ?— • I consider it rather in this light, that as it has ope- rated hitherto, it is the only superannuation fund. I do not think a man ought to be elected Fellow until he has done a thorough amount of work, and then it is a provision for his old age : and they would natu- rally be a body of old men, and I cannot think what good they would do in taking part in the school. 4840. Would you prefer to make them more useful as retiring pensions, and give up all idea of making use of them for the work of the school ? — I think if you do not have some provision for retiring pensions you will be sure to get several men sticking on to their work when they are past it. 4841. I entirely see the one object which yo'i have, which is to provide for the proper retirement and superannuation of the masters; but then I want to look to the other side of the cjuestion, and to consider what the effect of turning the fellowships into pure sinecures would be. Do you contemplate that the Provost and Fellows should still be the governing body of the school ? — I really have not considered that question sufficiently deeply. I think there are objections to the present way in which the school is governed, certainly. 4842. Then you merely give this answer with reference to the advantage of providing for the super- annuation of the assistant masters ? — As I said, look- ing at it as a superannuation fund. 4843. Then you have reserved as an open question whether the fellowships might not be used in some other way ? — Yes. 4844. You are aware, for instance, that a proposal has been made that some of the assistant masters should hold fellowships while they themselves are engaged in the work of teaching ? — Yes. 4845. Do you express an opinion on that one way or the other ? — I do not see any particular advantage in it. I should rather be against it. I should like to see the assistants recognized as a body and their opinions recognized as a body, and I should like to see them consulted as a body. PUBLIC SCnOOLS COMMISSION: — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 1C3 4846. But you would not make them supreme at all ? — No, I do not tliiuk I would. 4847. Then I see you take uo notice here of the College revenues ; would you propose that that these College reveuues should be given to the assistants without fellowships, or would you still, as at present, keep the reveuues in the hands of the Fellows ? — I think the fellowship is too much for a retiring pension. Suppose a man has been working steadih', say for 20 years of his life, I think that a fellowship of SCO/, a year and a living of 800/. a year more, is rather more, perhaps, than the ratio of retiring pensions j)rovided in other professions would suggest. It sometimes happens a man is elected a Fellow before ho has done very much work. 4848. I suppose a successful master is able to lay by usually ? — I should think he ought to. I do not think he is able to lay by anything like so much as the world fancies. I went fully into the question at No. 10, because of the observations made in a review by the " Cornhill." 4849. After 20 j-ears' service, and with a fellowship somewhat reduced in value, you think there would be a sufficient provision for retirement ? — I should think myself that a fellowship of 500/. a year, with a living, ought to tempt men to give up their work when they feel it begin to be a burden to them. 4850. With a living ? — I think myself that parochial work is the sort of thing that a man in Holy Orders looks forward to for the closing part of his life. 4851. How would j"ou proceed in the case of men who might have entered as assistant masters, and who find, after a short period of service, that they have mistaken their vocation ? — I think that where a living passes the body of Fellows without being taken by any of them, it ought to be offered to an assistant master. 4852. {Lord Lyttelton.) Do you think that with reference to the state of public opinion, a professed sinecure to the extent of 500/. a year would be practicable ? — What do you mean by a professed sinecure ? 4853. I am taking your own words, "I would make " the fellowships entirely sinecures," — a retiring pension would bo understood ? — Well I call it a retiring pension. 4854. Do you think it could be as high as 500/. a year ? — I look upon fellowships now as acting as sinecure retirements. I do not see that seven sermons a year can be looked upon as the work which the fellowship remunerates. 4855. {Mr. fa;/^/(a;(.) You sjieak of them as retiring pensions. Are you aware whether, taking the public schools generall}', there is any provision at all for masters ? — I do not think there is. 4856. Has it ever entered your mind to consider which is the preferable system, the having retiring pensions or not, as exists in the other public schools ? — I think that we at Eton feel our position is some- what more certain to us, by the prospect of a fellow- ship at the end of a long vista of years. 4857. Supposing it to be the case that a provision of this sort were made, and that masters could generally look for it at Etou, it not being the case at other schools, would it not be a necessary consequence of that, that the stipend of the masters while assistant masters, should be somewhat less than at other schools ; that their profits, while holding the master- ship, should be something less ? — I think the profits of an assistant master are nothing like what is generally imagined. 4858. You do not think that at present, and con- sidering the length of time in which in ordinaiy cases an assistant master would hold his office, that he could be fairly expected to save for himself what would virtually amount to a retiring pension in any way ? — As matters go at present, there is no certainty. Each assistant master has felt that in all probability if he conducts himself well, and so forth, he will most likely succeed to a fellowship in course of time. 1 do not mean to say that every master stays for it, because I know many instances of men Eton going ofl' to other occupations, and thereby leaving ' the regiment, as it were. Perhaps that may ha\e iif.„_ led to greater extravagance in living at a certain C.C.James. period ; but now almost all the masters are men with families, and some of them s.ay they cannot aftbrd to 12 Julv 1862. take a fellowship. ' 4859. You still think, speaking generally, that the salary of the assistant masters at Eton is such, that they may fairly expect, when their work is over, to have a retiring pension ? — I should think so. I should think that if the College livings were offered to the masters, very often a man would take a living of 400/. or 500/. a year, when he is getting about 40 or 45, and would be %ery glad to retire on that. 4860. Have you been speaking of the fellowships, or of the College livings before ? — AVhen I said I should make the fellowships entirely sinecures, I say, supposing the Fellows to be elected, as at present ; and in no case do I think an alien ought to be intro- duced. That was rather my view when I said, " If " length of service as an assist.iut were always " acknowledged as the paramount claim." I did not think a person should be introduced ab extra. 4861. I believe you mentioned it as one of the evils incident to masterships without retiring pensions that m.isters might be apt to st.ty a little too long ? — I think so. 4862. lias not the prospect of a pension dependent upon limited vacancies also a tendency to do that in this w.ay. Would it not become, in the first place, habitual for masters to look to that form of retiring ? — Perhaps so. 4863. Would it not follow fiom that that it would become a regular thing that a man would not retire until a vacancy occurred ? — I think that it may be so in the present state of things ; of course if any legislation should alter the whole system it would be difl'erent ; but in the present state of things Eton is looked upon by the world as providing for itself and self-sufficient in all things, and I think that supposing the Eton master wished, for instance, to get a living to retire upon, people would hardly consider his claims. Other patrons would consider that they had other claims on their patronage, and that this man was quite sulfi- ciently provided for by his prospects in the College. 4864. Do you or do you not think you would escape out of that particular difficulty which exists at present where they have no retiring pensions, of their hanging on a little too long ? — Of course I cannot say. We are under a system which has grown up, and there the system is, and if any alterations were made in it, it would require time to set right again. 4865. {Lord Devon.) In reference to one of your answers in which you speak of livings of 800/. a year as if it was the normal character of I'^ton livings, I am not sure whether you are aware that in point of fact, according to the returns here, there are only two livings above 600/. ? — What does the return mean ? 4866. I mean the return which has a column which is headed "value"? — What is the authority for the value ? For instance, there has been a great deal of talk about those two livings, which were vacant a little time ago, Worplesdon and Mapledurham ; in the Times they were sjwken of as livings of 900/. a year. I do not know where the Times got the infor- mation from. 4867. When you speak of 800/. a year, you do not mean to imply they were all of them so much ? — I said fellowships of 800/. a year. I can assure you that not a soul at Eton, perhaps, had an accurate notion of the value of the fellowships before these returns were printed. 4868. {Mr. Vaughan.) Is it a matter of fact that tho.se masters who are elected to the fellowships are generally elected from the mastership direct to the fellowships, or that they have previously resigned ? — Always from the mastership direct. 4869. But still they are not prevented by the statutes at all from being elected after they resign ? — Not in X 3 ■JOG PUBLIC SCHOOLS COMJIISSIOX -JIIXUTES OF EVIDEXCE. ETON. Uev. C. C. James. 12 July 1862. tlio least. Tlio statutes give freedom of election. According to the former lawsuit there w.'\s between Eton and Queen's, it was ruled that five must be King's men. 4870. They wait for the certainty? — Yes; the ordi- nary state of things is, the fellowship becomes vacant ; two or three senior assistants send in their names as candidates; then we hear of two or three others, King's men, who also send in their names as candi- dates, and, generally speaking, the result is that the senior assistant is elected. 4871. Such is the system generally? — I will not say it is always so ; but there is a sort of feeling generally that it ought to be so. 4872. f f.ord Clarendon.) How many boarders have you in your house at this moment ? — I have now 28. 4873^ {Lord Li/ttellon.) You say 22 in the evidence? — I had 22 last autumn. 4874. {Lord Clarendon.) And you do not receive payment for any number above 32 ?t^I am not autho- rized to do so. 4875. Is that rule adhered to ? — I cannot say, because I do not know anything about others. 4876. It is considered to be the rule? — When I first took a house I wrote to the Head Master to ask him what was the limit. He never told me anything about if, and I was making additions to my house. When I took it, it was half tumbled down. I was obliged to rebuild half of it. I thought I might as well make it hold as many boys as I was authorized to take. This was about a year after I v/as in the house. I ■wrote to him to ask him how many boys I was au- thorized to take, and he wrote in answer that I was authorized to take 30 boys, or 32, provided there were two pairs of brothers, and that I was not autho- rized to receive payment for more than 30, but if I liked to take more without payment, I miglit with liis permission. 4877. {Lard Li/tfelfon.) IIow many would your Louse hold ? — I made my house accordingly ; I made it to hold 32. One might want to take a relative, and one might not mind taking him for nothing. It would not do to interfere with each boy having a single room, and I have constructed two pairs of rooms so that brothers can occupy them together. 4878. {Lord Clarendon.) Do you consider that the amount you receive for your hoarders is the indirect way of remunerating you for your tuition ? — I sup- pose so. One must consider it so. 4879. That makes it important to know tlie actual cost of boarding the pupils, in order to arrive at R tolerably correct estimate of what is paid at Eton for tuition ? — I went into the question very closely as to what could be considered the amount that a boy costs in the house. It is almost impossible to make it out, because you are living with your wife and children and servants. The question would be how many servants would you have otherwise ; what sort of a house would you be living in, and so forth. I went over all my accounts once as a matter of curi- osity, and making deductions of what would be the probable cost of one's establishment, if it was not full of boys, I thought I made out that a boy costs 73/. or 74/. a year ; 75/. would probably cover it. 4880. That is something like 21. a week ? — About that. 4881. Other masters at other schools have had the same difficulty that you have in making this calcu- lation, but I think they arrive at a different result from yours. We will take Mr. Butler, at Harrow. I think he puts the charge at 48/.? — I believe at Eugby that is the charge for board and lorlging, but I think we feed them much better at Eton than at other schools. 4882. The diet I think is exactly the same as at Harrow ? — We have a great many servants to look after them. 4883. In Dr. Butler's house he includes washing and furniture ? — Then he has a larger number of boys. It makes a great difference. Of course one cannot })e perfectly certain of ahv.ays having a house full. This time last year my house was full ; the next half it was 22. 4884. What would you consider your profit per boy ? — The income tax commissioners fix it at 49/. or 50/. I believe some say 45/. I always reckon mine 50/. In making my returns for the income tax I have gone on that calculation ; I have put down 50/. for each boy in the house, but I am really not prepared to say that I consider myself in the position of a man who has got the amount of private income represented by that sum. 4885. You think it would be a better arrangement if tutors were paid a certain regular salary. They couM more rely upon such a remuneration for their work than the 45/. or 50/. ? — I think that is rather an objection in this way. I do not think it makes much difference with a man who has got fully into harness, but I think when a man first comes there he has got to do with the small boys, out of vihom he can get very little work, and he is rather tempted perhaps not to try to get so much from them as he might from the consideration that he is paid a mere nothing for them. 4886. When you made up that amount of 75/. per boy, how many boys had you in your house ? — I took the accounts of a year when the house was full. That makes a great difference ; accidents may happen; one may find it necessary to get rid of some boys. A parent is perfectly at liberty to take away a boy to-morrow if he likes ; there need be no notice given of it. 4887. That is withdrawing altogether from the school; he could not change a private tutor ? — No. 4888. Is no notice required ; have j-ou not a quarter's notice ? — Not the least ; not a minute's. In point of custom, one always expects to know as soon as one can conveniently. But if a parent gives notice that he wishes a boy to leave to-morrow, or comes and takes him away at once, he is at liberty to do so. 4889. In what manner do yau think it would be practicable now to give the assistant masters a fixed stipend ? — First of all you ask me the question whether it is desirable ; I rather think it is from this circumstance : A man comes to Eton fresh from King's. He is asked, perhaps, in the middle of the summer half. He has, perhaps, no pupils for some time ; perhaps he niity have one pupil or two. Perhaps during the half year he may have three or four. He is paid only this 44/. Perhaps for the first year or two he is at Eton he is out of pocket decidedly. Very often it may happen. I do not know that it does happen now, because the school is very full. 4890. {Lord I^yttcllon.) It applies to all the masters if they give up their salaries for the next four years ? — Yes. One looks upon the whole mass of income as remuneration for the whole mass of one's work. It would be very unfair, and nobody who has had ahy experience would try to separate the work in school from the work in pupil room in that sense. 4891. {I^ord Clarendon.) Practically does it not so work ? — I do not think it docs, except when men first come. I think when a man first comes he is rather tempted to look upon it so. 4892. You have not said what you would suggest ? — T have made a suggestion here. In the second paragraph of my answer to question 10 : "I should " propose that in lieu of some boys paying 21/. and " others 10/. \0s. to the tutor (the difference between " private and school pupils), 6/. 6s. to the Head " master, and 4/. 18*. to the mathematical fund, " every oppidan should pay (and the College should '• p.ay for every colleger) 15/. 15*. to the tutor, and " 15/. \5s. to the Head Master; of which 5/. 5s. '? should be the Head Master's own, and the other '■■' 10/. \0s. should go to a fund out of which the " Head Master should pay to every classical and " mathematical assistant salaries averaging 250/. " apiece." It would come to very much the same thing, and if a man had 40 pupils, almost exactly the same thing ; and it would come to exactly the same PUBLIC SCUOOLS COMMISSION:— MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 1G7 thing with those who pay — the parents — except that the distinction between private and half pupils would be done away with. 4893. {Lord Li/ttelton.) Have you what is called private business with all your pupils ? — Yes ; every- body is treated the same. There is not the slightest difference whether they pay me as private pupils or not. 4894. And whether they are iu the fifth form or lower bovs ? — I do not do weekly private business with the lower boys. I have tried to introduce it, and I have found in the remove the boys have not time for it. 4895. Do you not consider that your pupils who nre lower boys are private pupils ? — Yes. 4896. If you do not do private business with them, in what sense do you mean that ? — I do private business with them on Sundays. He comes to me for an hour on Sunday. I set him a good long copy of verses to do, and I look them over carefully. In fact, there used to be a master in Eton, who, if a boy brought a long exercise, would draw through his peu beyond 10 or 12 lines, or whatever the number was, and say, " uot paid to go any further." 4897. You treat them all alike. All your boya are private pupils as far as you think desirable, and as far as they can be ? — Yes. Three or four times I have tried to introduce private business for the lower form and remove, and I think the remove have such an amount of work to do, that they cannot do it. I have tried it after the election holidays, and I have tried it several years, and have always found that result. The boys say the}' really have uot time to doit. 4898. How many pupils have you out of your house? — About 14 or 15, I think. 4899. All the pupils in your house pay the same sum ? — Yes. 4900. You have 14 pupils out of your house. Can you say how many are fifth form, and how many below ? — Thirteen fifth form, and two lower boys. 4901. Do I understand that the 13 fifth form boys, who are out of your house, are all private pupils, and do they all pay 20 guineas a year ? — No. 4902. How many of those 13 who are out of the house, and who are fifth form boys, do not pay the 20 guineas ; they all do the same work ? — Yes. 4903. How many of them pay only 10 guineas ? — I should think about 10 of them ; all the collegers to begin with. 4904. H.ave you the right to demand the 10 guineas extra from the collegers ? — No. 4905. How many of the 13 are oppidans? — If I had brought my list of pupils with me I could have told you accurately. I think I stated it in my written answers. 4906. I wish to know how many are oppidans of the fifth form ?— I think I have 13 fifth form pupils out of the house, and I think I have got at this moment eight collegers. 4907. You have five oppidan fifth form pupils out of your house? — Yes. * 4908. How many of these pay you 20 guineas, and how many 10 guineas? — Two pay 10 guineas and three pay 20 guineas. 4909. And the work is the same ; you have a right to demand the 20 guineas from all, then ? — No, I have no right to demand 20 guineas from any of them. I have no right to demand more than 10 guineas. 4910. But being on the footing of private pupils according to which they would pay the 20 guineas, on what ground do you remit it in the case of two of them ? — I never say a word about it. 4911. Do you leave it to the parents to do as they please ?— Precisely ; I am asked to take a boy as a pupil and I do so. He comes to my private business as any other boy. If a parent sends me 11. or 3Z. 10*. a term, I say nothing about it. 4912. You do not send in those bills, it is left to the dame ? — Yes. 4913. Docs not the dame, iu sending the bill, charge so much for tuition ? — Yes. 4914. On what principle does she charge lOguincas for one and 20 guineas for another ? — I should say she would probably ask the pareut or the i)rivato tutor. Oue dame has always asked me," Am I to charge so " and so as a private pupil or a half pupil ? " In that case I have generally said as a private pupil, unless I have known him to be the son of poor parents. 4915. As far as it comes under you, you determine it by whether the parents are able to afford it ? — Yes. 4916. With regard to boys below the fifth form, do j'ou always charge them the 10 guineas only below the fifth form ? — No ; I understand they arc on the same footing. In fact, I think a fair remuneration for what I do with the pupils is certainly 20 guineas, at tlio very lowest. 4917. So you take that as the regular charge, and make an abatement below it iu some cases ac- cording to the circumstances of the parents ? — Those who do pay only 10 guineas I know to be sous of parents who could not very well aftbrd more. 4918. Do you leave it entirely to the dame? — I never say a syllable about it. 4919. You only tell them to put down something for tuition ? — Yes. 4920. And that you leave entirely to the dame ? — Yes. If the dame consults me about it, I say " he " pays as a private pupil," but if not, I leave it entirely to the dame, and whatever is sent me I take. 4921. With regard to your colleger pupils, are you compelled to take them ? — I am uot compelled to take them at all. 4922. The Head Master would find a tutor for a colleger just the same as he would for an oppidan when he is requested to do so ? — Probably he would. 4923. But the parents of a colleger have come to you and have selected you, just as the parents of au op])idau ? — Yes. 4924. In no case do you receive more than 10 guineas for them? — In no case. 4925. Collegers cannot in that sense be private pupils ? — Not in a paying sense. We are obliged to give them private business. To any of my ojipidan pupils who do not pay me 20 guineas I might say " I will not give you any private business," but I might not say that to a colleger. 492G. {Lord Dcron.) Under the present system the payments for tuition, classical and mathematical, are 31/. ISs. ?— Yes. 4927. You propose to substitute for that two fixed payments of 15/. 15*. each ? — Yes. 4928. 15/. \5s. to the tutor, and 15/. 15*. to the Head Master ? — Yes. 4929. IVIaking 31/. 10^. ?— Yes. 4930. As regards therefore the payment, the sums to be paid by them under your system would be pretty nearly identical ? — Yes. 4931. As regards the income of the classical or mathematical assistant, am I correct in supposing that the increase, in your judgment, which he would derive from the augmentation of his salary would bo compensated for, and to be set against the diminution which he would suffer from the reduction of that paid for tutorial fees ? — Clearly. vSupposing hiin to have 40 pupils, which we look upon as the normal state of things at Eton, it would just balance it. 4932. What advantage should you consider would result from the change in respect of the classical or mathematical assistant himself ? — When a man first comes he would not probably be at Eton for a year or two without receiving enough to meet his necessary expenses. 4933. You do not contemplate in this proposed alteration the drawing ou the funds of the College for any other purposes than for the fees paid on account of fellowships ? — No ; I do not knov/ enough about tlio funds of the College to enter into that question at all. 4934. As regards your present proposition ; you do uot contemplate it ? — Not the least. I proposed X 4 ETON. nev. C. C Jamc-<. 12 July ISf.?. IGS r'JBLIC SCHOOLS COMMISSION :— MINUTES OF EVIDEXCE. ETON. Rev. C. C. Jutnes. 12 July 1862. biiiiply that tlie funds slioukl bo made for the Hc.id Master and the assistants simihir to the funds which arc niada for the mathematical assistants. All the money paid on account of mathematics goes to one fund "and then is divided into certain proportions. I mentioned there 1.5/. 15i. for this reason. It is, per- haps, rather hard to compel those who have hitherto jiaid only 10/. for their sons to pay 20/. ; but I con- sider 20 guineas is not an overpayment for the ser- vices. In the lower school 15 guineas is now the authorized charge, and 20 guineas if a boy is a private pupil. In point of practice we treat every boy as a private pupil, and in fact the collegers are inclined to work more tlian anybody else. 493,j. {Mr. Vanghan.) Are you in the habit, under any circumstances, of abating any part of the 120 guineas which you receive from boarders in your house, as you are in the habit of abating the 10 guineas or 20 guineas ? — I am only in (he habit of doing it in this way, if a boy has been absent from illness during a greater part of the school time. 4936. That is in consideration of the less benefit he has received ?— If a boy has been absent during half the school time. 4937. Not referring to that at all, but supposing a boy to have been there the whole time, are you in the habit of making any abatement under any circum- stances ? — Not the least. 4938. Are the boys who go to the dames' houses generally of a class less rich than those who go to the tutors' houses ? — I should say they were, possibly. 4939. Is it not the main result of the arrangement as you have stated it, that a boy who goes to the dame's house has virtually two sources of economy which are not open to a boy who goes to a tutor's house. In the first place, his boarding out of doors is cheaper ; and, in the second place, he can, if he pleases, evade half the tutorial fee ; so that in all points of view the dame's house is the cheaper of the two ? — Certainly, 4940. Is it the consequence of the whole arrange- ment as you have stated it, that the boys who are in the tutor's house, considering that those who are in the other houses are not obliged to pay and yet re- ceive the benefit, are virtually paying for a part of the education not only of the collegers but also of a considerable portion of those in the dames' houses ? — I do not think they would make that calculation at all in that way. I think there is a general feeling among the boys in the tutor's house that they are rather superior. 4941. I am simply asking a fact, quite apart from the feeling connected with it ; whether it is not the case that if collegers necessarily evade, and boys in dames' houses may evade, a great part of the pay- ment for private tuition, while they receive exactly the same benefit as those in the tutors' houses ; that those in the tutors' houses are virtually paying a part of the tuition of those in College, and also those in dames' houses ? — I do not think the boys think so in any way. 4942. I am simply speaking of what is a matter of fixct. If all receive equal benefit, and some pay more than others, is not the class that are paying in full vir- tually paying for the educationof the others ? — I do not think so, for this reason ; I have already stated that I consider a boy in the house costs something like 70/. or 75/. a year, literal cost of his maintenance ; if you board and lodge a boy, and he costs you 75/., I do not think 100/. is an out of the way payment for it. 4943. Do you not consider that a boy in the tutor's house absolutely pays the 20 guineas a year just as much as a boy who is in the dame's house, and does pay it? — Yes ; I was dividing the 120/. I get 100/. from a boy in the house for boarding and lodging, and 20/. for his tuition. 4494. All the boys in the tutor's house pay virtually 20 guineas for their tutorial instruction, while boys in the d.ame's house may be receiving all the same benefit and paying only 10 guineas, and collegers also paying only 10 guineas ; is it not the case that they .are payin^ in very different proportions for the same benefit ? — I look upon it in this light : we have got a certain number of pupils ; they pay 20 guineas a year each, and in the case of those who only pay 10 I am simply making a present to the parents of the other 10. 4945. Considering the whole support of the master, and supposing he is properly supported as a master, the one class contributes to that support to a degree in which the others do not ? — Any person may look upon it in that light if he likes. 4946. Is not that the effect simply of the outward arrangement ? — It may be to some people. 4947. {Lord Lyttelton.) Do all the assistant mas- ters follow the same course as you do with regard to this 20 guineas ?— I should think so. When I first went to Eton as assistant master, the number of pupils was unlimited. With the next man who came junior to myself, the late Head Master limited the number, and it has been so with everyone ever since ; and when a man is limited by his agree- ment on coming not to take more than 40, a great many men have said, and when parents have asked ray to take their sons, I have said, " I am limited to a very " small portion of private pupils, and I do not wish " to take any who are not private pupils." The late Provost was very angry about it indeed. He said nobody had any business to refuse a pupil unless he had as many as he could hold, 4948. You have a small number of boys out of the house who pay the lesser amount ? — Yes ; it is the exception for an oppidan to pay less. 4949. Do j'ou think that the proportion of them which you have, about represents the ordinary pro- portion in the houses of the masters "i-- — I have got eight collegers, and 15 boys out of the house, that leaves seven. Three of these pay me 10 guineas, that will leave four — one-half. I should think one-half was too high. I should say that, as a rule, an oppidan pays the 20 guineas. 4950. You do not ask the question ; you leave it to the dame ; but in the event of the propor- tion considerably increasing or having a tendency to increase, would it not be a matter of inquiry with you ? — I take for granted a boy is a private pupU when he is brought to me, and he has generally turned out to be so. 4951. I mean as to payment ?— ^When I am asked to take a boy as a matter of friendship, I should pro- bably not expect the 20/. 4952. I thought you said you would not ask the question at all, and if you found yourself receiving 10 guineas only, it was in fact settled by the dame with the boy's parent ? — The cases are not numerous in which we have received 10 guineas from the dame. 4953. But tho.se three boys you have now got are with dames ? — No, they are not. They board in the town. 4954. With their friends ?— Yes, 4955. In that case you come to an understanding with the parents ? — Nothing was said about it ; but I assume that people who come to Eton for the pur- pose of educating their children would not wish to pay more. 4956. You have had cases, I understand, in which the dame has arranged it ? — Yes. 4957. If the number of pupils not paying the full amount was to increase it would be a matter of inquiry with you ? — Perhaps it might. Once I wrote to ask how it was that a lioy in the fifth form did not pay as a private pupil. The dame wrote to the parent, and the parent wrote and said he did not wish to pay. 4958. And it continued so ? — Yes. 4959. That made no difference ? — No ; we have BO legal demand for more than 10 guineas. There is one dame at Eton who writes to me when there is a new pupil, "Am I to charge so-and-so as a full " pupil, or as a half pupil ?" I say, " Charge him as " a full pupil ;" but I never say anything about it beforehand. Another case was that of a boy in my house, and his mother wrote to me and said she really could not afltbrd the expenses of tutor's houses, 1 PUBLIC SCHOOLS COSHHSSION : — MTNUTES OF EVIDENCE. 169 would T mind his removing to a dame's. He removed to a dame's, and, of course, I took it for granted he would pay the smaller sum. 49(j0. As a rule, as far as there is any difference, the parents of hoys in the dames' houses are the least rich, because they are charged much less for board ? — That makes a difference, no doubt. 49GI. {Mr. Vaiiff/ian.) Have you anywhere ex- pliiincd the cause of that considerable outlay you nientif ncd, in taking a house, of from S.OtX)/. to 6,000/. ? — I have merely stated my own experience. 49li'2. Can you tell the Commission shortly how that sum is made up ? — I have not the slightest objection to telling the Commission what were the circumstances under which I took my house. The house was in a very ruinous state. 4963. You say here, " It should be remembered " that a man cannot set up a tutor's house at Eton " without very considerable outlay, perhaps from " 3,000/. to 6,000/. ;" naturally I regard that as a general system, and so far as it is a general system, I ask you to have the kindness to explain it ? — A man Bometimcs has to build a house. Sometimes he has to repair it very extensively. In my own case, I rebuilt half my house, including almost all the boys' part. Of course, 1 did not have to pay a high rent for that house, but with the interest of what I had to l.ay out on it, it raises it to about the amount that a high-rented house in Eton would cost, and then there is the furnishing the house. 4964. Is it the habit of persons who Lave boarding- houses, tutors and others, if they contemplate re- tiring, to allow the house to fall into decay for three or four years before they retire ? — I should say not at all. 496o. If it is not the habit, what would be the sources of expense that would fall on the incoming master to take a boarding^ house, finding his house of the usual size, and in tolerably tenantable repair ? — 1 can answer that best by supposing I give up my own house, and another man comes into it ; I should expect him to repay me a certain proportion, iiccord- ing to the value of the remainder of the lease, of ■what I have laid out upon it. 4966. What is called a premium usuall}' ? — It is not exactly a premium. Many liouses are in the hands of the College. INIany houses have been re- built, or built by individuals, and those in the hands of the College, of course, p.ay the full value of the house. 4967. But as your case involved peculiar outlay of capital for building, I would limit the question still further, in order to exclude that case. Supposing a master to receive a boarding-house, not only in a state of repair, and of the usual size, but to receive it from a person who had himself received it in a good state of repair, and of the usu.al size, what expenses would he have to pay ? — I cannot say, because that case would be a matter of private arrangement be- tween the gentleman going out and the gentleman coming in. 4968. If that is so, must we not limit your proposi- tion to this, that in some cases, owing to peculiar circumstances in the case, it may happen that a master at Eton cannot set up a house without the expense which you have mentioned ? — I have never heard less than 3,000/. spoken of as the sum required to set up a full-sized bo.arding-house. 4969. As a remuneration for repairs that have been made by the master who goes out, or on the ground of repairs made actually by the master who was coming in, or does it comprise generally these two amounts ? — Yes. One of those houses at Eton is a very considerable matter, as to the furniture. 4970. Do not the boys pay for that furniture at all ? — A certain portion of it they pay for. Besides furnishing your own private part of it, the boys would turn up their noses if you did not give them silver forks and spoons. Everything must be silver. With regard to this, from 3,000/. to 6,000/., I merely mentioned it as a sort of rough idea of what was 1. actually ttilked of at Eton, and as far as my actual exjierience goes, it is not overstated. 4971. {LordClarcndon.) With reference to page 79, at tlie bottom of the page you made a proposition to some of your colleagues with respect to an average amount ; was that agreed to by them, and is it in operation now? — I believe one of them does it, the one with whom I drew it up. 4972. Do you do it with tlie parents of your boys? — I have done it with those who have entered my house since the date there mentioned. 4973. And you think it works equitably and satis- factorily ? — I think so, quite fairly. My object in doing it is to prevent perquisites to servants, because I felt that servants looking to boys lor perquisites, actually looked upon themselves as almost bound not to report things which they ought to report. 4974. Do you know why the others do not agree to the system ? — I think, in many cases, it was a sort of feeling that they would have to dismiss all their pre- sent servants if they did. 4975. {Lord Lyttclton.) I do not understand that perquisites are a recognized thing ? — No, but a boy does not want to lug a great bureau across the country, and there is no one to leave it to but the servant. 4976. (Sir Stafford Northcole.') With regard to what you say of the council of assistants, a plan has been suggested to us to this effect : th.it instead of giving the senior assistant master charge of the second division, and the third master the charge of the next division, and so on, that there should be a system of viceroys, as it were ; that the first master should take the fifth form, the next the remove, and the next the fourth form, and that the others should be under them, and that the three or four viceroys should act as a sort of council to the Head Master. What do you think of such a plan as that ? — I think there is a very great deal to recommend' it. There may be some difficulties in its working just at present, because we have been accustomed hitherto to look upon ourselves as ec[ual in every respect, except as to seniority, and the Head Master I know is very much against such a plan ; but perhaps it might have the effect of dividing the school too much into depart- ments. At present I think one considerable evil in the school, which prevents improvement, is the fact that the Head Master, as Head Master, in virtue of his office, knows literally nothing of the work in the lower part of the school ; I do not think he is ac- quainted with it in the least. I think it would do the school a world of good if the Head Master took the lower part of the school. 4977. {Lord Lyttelton.) Would that be a part of your plan ? — I would not go so far as that. I have not suggested anything of the sort. It has been suggested by others. 4978. {Sir Stafford Northcole.) The plan which has been suggested is a plan by which the viceroy fbr the fourth form, for instance, would take any division in the fourth form for a week or a fortnight, as it might be, and that he would be the channel through whom the difficulties or complaints of the fourth form would be brought before the Head Master ? — I think it is a very bad thing to move boys about from one master to another more than necessary. Boys are appointed to a certain division, and I think it is very undesirable, if it can be helped, to inter- fere with that arrangement. If a man goes away from iU health, I look upon that as an evil thing for the division. I think it is a very good thing if a boy comes in contact with a fresh mind certainly twice a year, but I think when he is once settled in his work for the school time, that he should not be "up to' anybody but that master. 4979. It would be quite possible for one master having special charge of the fourth form, and himself usually teaching the first division of the fourth form, to get a general knowledge of what work in the fourth form was ? — I am not prepared to say that I have sufficiently considered that scheme to form an opinion ETON. C. C. James. 12 July 18C2, 170 PUBLIC SCHOOLS COMMISSION: — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE.. ETON. about it ; but I think it is oue which would recom- meud itself at first sight. ^'"^ 4980. Do jou think the .senior m.asters would C. C. James, ^^^^.f.^ aft,.!, having been teaching fifth form boys, to 12 July 186'' go down and take the fourth form class ?— I think they would ; when the Head Mftster asks them to, I .suppose (hey must. 4981. You must consider that they ■rt'ould be iu the position of councillors to the Head Master, which they had not previously been ?— Yes. 4982. Do you think that the School in its present size is re.illy mauageable, without some system of the kind ? I think that something of that sort would be a very good thing. I am not prepared to say I have sufficiently considered the question, to recom- mend it entirely in the form in which it has been brought before me ; but I think one evil of the school would be met by it, which is this, that all tJie lower boys are under the junior masters, and they naturally scarcely like to come forward and press things which they feel ought to be done. There are three or four fourth form masters, who have not been there a year or a year and a half apiece. They hardly like to come forward, and to press those things on the Head Master with the same amount of weight that a senior man, who is put in charge of the fourth form, under the circumstances, would be able to go to the Head Master, and say, " I, having 15 or 20 years' ex- " perience, considered this change ought to be made." 4983. Are you aware that it is one of the complaints of the present working at Eton that the grounding is not sufficiently attended to, or at all events that boys who leave Eton leave it insufficiently grounded ? — I am aware that is often said. 4984. Is not the fourth form just the place in which the grounding ought mainly to be done ? — Yes, I think the real meaning of that generally is, that they have forgotten their elementary knowledge when they get high up. For instance, Oxford men are constantly saying they know nothing of grammar and cannot parse, and the remedy for that, I consider to be, that parsing should be more strictly attended to iu the higher divisions of the school. 4985. Supposing a master had got to a certain stage and was one of the three or four senior masters and went down to the fourth form, and then gradually . worked up in charge of the fourth form, and then of the remove, and then of the fifth form, would he not have his attention called both to the importance of en- forcing the grounding at the beginning and enforcing it all through? — Yes, I think it is a scheme which prima facie has a great deal to be said in favour of it. 4986. Then you do not see any insuperable objec- tions to it ? — No. 4987. {Lord Clarendoji.) I would ask whether on the whole you consider the teaching power at Eton sufficient ? — Yes, I think the teaching power is suf- ficient ; but I think there is an enormous waste of power at Eton. 4988. Do you think a better distribution of that power would produce greater results ? — That I am not prepared to say, because I do not know how far you must expect power to be lost. 4989. (3Ir. Vaughan.) Perhaps you could point out where the waste is ? — I believe that we as a body of assistants, take the whole of our work together, are considerably harder worked than the assistants of any other school in the kingdom. I believe that to be the case ; I believe the results we produce in the shape of good scholarship among the best boys to be equal to that produced in any other school, and I believe the result produced ou the average, as far as intellectual attainment goes, may be fairly taken as equal to the average of other schools. I consider at the same time that we are enormously overworked. 4990. {A Commissioner.) And yet you consider that that docs not render necessary any addition to the teaching power which would appear to be the means of relieving it ?— I think there is a great deal of power wasted. 4991. (.S'iV 6'. Northcote.) In what way ? For instance, as the most glaring, I should instance the careful way in which the tutor is required to look over every theme of every pupil. Every boy is re- quired to do an original theme every week, and, as it seems to me, it is an exercise the boys take very little interest in themselves. They do not take half the pains with their themes that they do with their verses, and the tutor is expected and required, by the custom of the place to look them over carefully and to make it correct Latin ; of course, if it is very bad, you point out the mistake, tear it up, and make the boy do a fresh one, but otherwise you do not. That particular exercise takes the tutor, we will say, six or eight hours in the week to look over. 4992. Would your notion be to suppress that theme ? —My notion would be to have it occasionally. 4993. (^Lord Lyttelton.) Are they ever sent up for themes ? — Very seldom. At one time Dr. Hawtrey took a great fancy to themes ; we used to do very long themes on subjects that he set. 9944. {Lord Clarendon.) Would you reduce the ■ time devoted to verses ? — No. 4995. Do you attach great import-iuce to verses ? — Yes ; I think it is an exercise boys take a great deal of interest in, even average boys. Good, clever boys will find an opportunity of showing off, and making a nice display, and I think even an average boy has more pride in producing a decent and passable copy of verses than he has in a theme. At the same time I suppose prose exercises might teach him to express his thoughts better, but I do not think they do in point of fact. 4996. (I^ord Lyttelton.) Do you think there is enough translation at Eton ? — I do not. 4997. Not enough translation into English ? — No ; I would have more. 4998. With a view to the knowledge of their own language, do you think theue is enough ? — Certainly not. I think Eton has increased very much in the habit of writing English within the last 10 years. Sunday questions were introduced by Dr. Goodford, first of all, when he became Head Master. A boy has to write perhaps three or four pages of English every week, and I think the spelling and language used in writing is better than it used to be. 4999. {Sir S. Northcote.) Do you think that boys look on the translation with the same respect that they do on the original exercise ? — That depends on how they are tre.ated by the master ; if the master looks it over carefully, perhaps they will, but if not they most decidedly will not. 5000. {I^ord Clarendon.) Do you not think that the giving of 40 boys to one master in school is too much ? — I do not think that a division of 40 boys is at all unmanageable. Practically there arc npt more than 36 generally present ; there are generally some ill and some away. I think that the boys take more interest in their work than if they were in little bits of 20. 5001. That is as to the classical school, then comes the private tuition ; is it not more than one man can undertake for a length of time together ? — The real fact is it makes very little difference to a man whether he has a division of 40 or 60 in school ; it only makes a diiference in looking over the extra number of exer- cises. He can be pretty sure that all the faults have been pointed out, and that is not a very laborious thing. 5002. He can call the boys up ? — Of course he can. 5003. I am speaking as to the disadvantage to the boys ? — I thought the question was put to me as to the overwhelming amount of work on the tutor ; I consider that 40 should be quite the outside of a division certainly; but I think a division of 40 is not at all unmanageable in respect to keeping discipline, you can have them all under your eye at once. With respect to the number you call up, I cau manage to call up a good number, from six to eight, generally speaking, each lesson. 5004. From six to eight out of 40 ? — That would get through the whole twice a week. If a boy is PUBLIC SCHOOLS COMMISSION: — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 171 called lip twice a week besides his tutor's construing, Le is piotty sure not to take the liberty of trusting to chance, instead of learning his lessons. 5005. Do not a great many take that liberty? — Not so many as in my time. 5006. {Mr. y'aiighan.) What is the penalty if a boy is found thoroughly ignorant ? — He would have to write it out and translate it twice, or perhaps do 50 ■words, dcriv.ations. If I found him repeating the ofTence within a short time, I should give him a warning that 1 should, if his idleness continued, report him to the Head Master. 5007. {Lord Clarendofi.) You say "It may be " questioned whether it," the tutorial system, " has " not been carried too far in the first department, that " of school work, the tutor being responsible for " every exercise being shown up without faults in " school, and for every pupil having heard the lesson " accurately construed in pupil room before he goes " into school. The amount of work exacted from the " tutor leaves him very little time for private business " or for preparing his work, and none for his own " reading, and, perhaps, some men may be tempted " to consider their work in school of inferior impor- " tauce to that in pupil room"? — The fact is this : a man goes to Eton and takes a fourth form division; in that division the looking over the exercises is merely nothing, because the exercises are not for the most part exercises in which it is possible to show any merit. They are simply full sense verses and a translation of a simple bit of Latin with the tutor and Arnold's Exercises. They are merely things in which there is only one way of doing them — either right or wrong, and the tutor has looked them over carefully and corrected them. You have only to see that it is written fairly. That is very little work, of course, to a man, and the lessons are exceedingly short. When a man first comes to Eton, I think he is a little tempted. I have heard men express an opinion that it did not much matter about the work in the school ; that if you put the screw on to a boy who seemed to be a little idle, perhaps his tutor might object to your overworking him. I have had divisions of 60, and I have known men who Lave had divisions of 90. In a division of 40, if I find a boy twice idle, and unprepared with his lesson, I say, " If this occurs again within a reasonable period " I must report you to the master," and perhaps I shall call that boy up evei-y single time for three or four days, or ])erhaps a week. If I had a division of 50 or 60, I could not do that, because I should feel that unless I called up a certain number every school- time I should not be doing justice to the rest, but with a division of 40 I think I can do it very comfortably. 5008. {Mr. Vaitghan.) You spoke about the cor- recting of the exercises ; did you make a distinction between the fact of the tutor's correcting tlie verse exercises and the prose exercises ? — Simply this, that I think the boys themselves take more interest in the verse exercises. Each costs almost equal time ; the prose exercise is a less elaborate perform- ance generally. I look upon the looking over of themes as the most disagreeable part of my work, and the work which I feel to be the least productive of any result. 5009. Am I to understand that as the tutor cor- rects the verses the boy goes along with the tutor and appropriates the effect of those corrections to his own mind, but in the themes he does not do so ; so that, in point of fact, it comes to this, that the boy is almost setting a sort of task to the master in which he does not take part himself? — Yes. 5010. What view do you take as to the utility of the correction by the tutor rather than by the master of the form ? — I do not think it is possible for the master of the form to correct. I suppose I have now 30 boys in the fifth form. Each of those boys' themes take me on an average 10 or 12 minutes; about five in an hour, quite that, and the upper boys more. Thus it costs me, perhaps, six or seven hours' work in the week to look over their themes, and the same time again to look over their verses. I think that our system of their being corrected by some- body is au exceedingly important one, because if the boy puts a grammatical fault, I mark it. 501 1. Are you speaking as tutor or master? — I am speaking as tutor. If I see that faults are rather plentiful in the exercise, I merely mark them, and give it back to him to correct ; if 1 see one or two, the result of inattention, and not of idleness, I correct them myself. I try to work up the exercise to what I think is the boy's average merit, and, perhaps, I may re-write a part, which he appropriates aud writes in a fair copy to be shown up with the other copy in the school. I do not think it is possible for a master in school to do that. It would give him the whole amount of his 40 boys to go over in that way every week. It would simply come to this : if you gave the master in school two hours for the purpose, he might go over all the exercises aud point out the faults. Instead of the weekly themes and verses, I would have one original exercise every week. I should like to see a school time of two hours appropriated for each division, which should be arranged in this way : it should be for translation into Latin prose, Latin verse, Greek prose, or Greek verse, and the master should set it at the beginning, and then the boys should do it at their desks in school. While they are doing it, he nlight be carefully looking over the one they had done the week before. Then when they have done it, let him read out to them a good translation of the passage, aud let him cdl their attention to the superior way of turning it, and the nice way of expressing it in Latin. 5012. Your objections hitherto have pointed only to the difficulty arising from want of time ; but must it not be admitted that no less time would be at the disposal of the master of the fbnii than of the tutor if he were relieved from the coriection of those exer- cises of his pupils throughout the school which now fall to his share in his capacity as tutor. Do you dis- sent from that view so far ? — The master in school, you would find, would not look it over in the same careful way. 5013. Precisely; you think that all the real gain lies in this, — the exercises are carefully looked over in the long run, whereas they all would not be carefully looked over otherwise. But do you mean to say tho masters would defer looking over and correcting inde- finitely ? — No. I mean to say the master would look them over, and would merely mark faults, and perhaps give them to the boy to correct ; but the tutor looks them over carefully, and not only marks the faults, but re-writes any line which he does not like. 5014. It has been represented by some at Eton, that the tutor, knowing that the master of the form comes after him, has a perpetual stimulus in the anti- cipation ; whereas, if the class master did it, and there were no one who reviewed his work, he would do it in a more slovenly manner ? — Yes ; I think that is a most important thing. You feel yourself stimulated to do your best with the exercises, especially if he is up to a clever man. The sort of standard I set myself to, is to try to work the exercise up to what the boy's best ought to be. I do not wish the exercise to be below his own average merit. 5015. {Lord Lytlelton.) The master in class feels no embarrassment or scruple at all in criticising any corrections, does he ? — Not the least. I do not in the least. I look over the exercise in class, and I say, " Here is a false quantity." " Please, sir, my tutor " put it." You cannot help that sometimes* 5016. {Mr. Vaughaji.) With regard to the con- struing ; you point out the advantage of that, saying, " the lesson having been construed beforehand to " the tutor, the master in school is able to insist " on a much higher standard of knowledge of the " lesson than would be possible otherwise ;" but at page 83 you say, " I am not prepared to say " it might not be judiciously modified." In what way would you modify it ? — At the time, that was felt by a great many of our body to be one of the Y 2 JiTON. Rev. C C. James. 12 July I8C2 172 PUBLIC SCHOOLS COMMISSION: — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. ETON. points on which relief was most possible at Eton ; •'— ' therefore, I did not wish to express an opinion con- Rev. tiary to what I imagined to be expressed by a great C. C. James, rnany otliers, that it was possible to reconsider or re- construct the arrangement of construing in some way. 12 July 1862. j^ differs according to the different mode each man adopts. One man only hurries through the lesson ; another man goes thoroughly through it. 5017. You say further, "The principal dis.idvan- " tage attending it is that it malies it necessary for " all the fifth form to do the same lesson, .as it would " be utterly impossible for the tutors to add a fourth " set of construings to their work." Is it notone con- sequence of that uniformity of worlv that one boy does the same work for three years together ? — Yes, I think that one weak point about our an-angenients at Eton is this fact ; it is not quite so glaring now as it was. When I was at Eton I got to the fii'th form at the age of 12 ; I left Eton at the age of 18^ to go to King's ; during the interval between 12 and 18^ I was doing the same work all the time. That is not the case now. The first two divisions do different work, but the remainder of the fifth form do the same. 5018. {Lord Lyttelton.) That, you think, is an evil ?— Yes ; if I was fit to do it at 12, 1 was lit to do something better at 18. 5019. {Mr. Vaughan.) Do you not think, con- sidering the proper speed at which a boy might master one author, that the same objection equally applies to doing the same work for three years ? — I should think two years, or one year and a half is quite enough. 5020. Do you think that if different divisions read the same authors and the same quantity, it is, prac- tically speaking, tlie case that masters will treat those authors in such a different manner in each division as that boys in each division will get a scholarly disci- pline proportionate to their advancement ? — I do not think it is likely to be done. 5021. Since a very large number, amounting to 300 boys, are doing the same work, will it not be the re- sult that if such work is beneficial for the central part it will be too hard for the beginners ? — Yes, I think so, if the work is sufliciently advanced for a boy in the upper division. The lessons in which the work is hardest are " long Horace " and Scriptores Romani. For instance, take Horace. We go through that at 70 lines a week. The fifth form go througli it entirely in two years. At the present moment I have got a division of the fifth form ; it is perfectly impossible to take that division through the lesson in the time ; I defy any man to take a division of new fifth form pro- perly through 70 lines of Horace in three-quarters of an hour. 1 would not object to a lesson of 40 lines, but a lesson of 70 lines is beyond all reason, I think, for those boys ; perhaps for the sixth form it is not too long, but for boys who have only just got into the fifth form, you feel bound to go through with it thoroughly. Yesterday we had nominally an hour for this lesson, which is practically 50 minutes, and I certainly did not get beyond 50 lines. 5022. If you take the division at the other end, I suppose there would be the converse objection that they were satiated with this book, and ceased to work on it with vigour ? — I do not know that. Horace is an author that is always interesting ; I think the older one gets the more one likes hira, but I tliink the effect on the sixth form was, that it was not thought necessary to learn the lesson because they had gone through it once. In my case, which was perhaps an cxtrerne case, I was six years working at Horace, and I went through the whole of it three times, and I am not prepared to say that I did not got something from it each time; but certainly the effect was rather palling on one's mind, and if you had gone through it once, especially if you had your book written through with the English, you thought you need not learn the lesson quite so carefully. 5023. It may be said that under that arrangement the two ends are sacrificed to the middle ? Yes. 5024. You think that there should be a greater change ? — Yes. 5025. And a better gradation of the work for those forms ? — Yes ; I think there ought to be a gradation in the work of the fifth form ; from tlie third division down to the bottom of the 11th, they are doing ex- actly the same work. One little modification has been introduced quite recently, which, I think, works well. Instead of two Homer lessons as it used to be of 35 lines each, one Homer lesson is set of 50 lines for the middle division and lower part of the upper division, and for the lower division that lesson is di- vided into two lessons of 25 lines each. 5026. Do you think that through the forms gene- rally in this vast school, the mere prospect of promo- tion as they move up now in whole divisions from one form to another, acts as a stumulus to the boys ? . — I think the trials they go through on each subject act as a very strong stimulus. 5027. But not the promotion in itself ? — It is rather a great disgrace to lose a promotion than an honour to get it. 5028. {Sir Stafford Northcote.) Do you think that' the necessity of communicating with a boy's tutor before he can be flogged, at all injuriously affects the power of the master in school to keep his class up to the work ? — Not in the least. 5029. I think I understood you to say that you thought the master in the fourth form would say that a boy's tutor might not like his being pressed hardly, and so forth ; you made use of an expressiou some- thing like that ? — The fourth form masters sometimes happen to be a set of very young men who have just come, and they do not like to do anything older men might not like ; I think that the regulation intro- duced by the Head Master about three or four years ago is an enormous advantage to the school. 5030. It does not happen that there is any fa- vouritism ? — I think that in dealing with boys there is nothing you have so jealously to guard against as the notion of there being any favouritism. There is nothing boys are so keen to seize upon as any notion of the sort. I tliink that is the first thing which a man feels it a matter of necessity to guard against. 5031. {Mr. Vaughan.) With regard to the books which are used, they are generally revised by Eton masters, are they not ? — They used to be. I am merely mentioning what I have heard, but I believe that, before Mr. Johnson, ev«ry master conducted some work through the press. 5032. Has that ceased ? — It has to a great extent. 5033. Was it an acknowledged part of the profit of an Eton master ? — No, it had nothing to do with the profit at all. 5034. Was the profit solely with the publisher ? — Solely. I have heard Mr. Johnson say, that shortly after he came to Eton, he was told that every master was expected to conduct some book through the press, and he was told to do Cicero's Orations, I think ; he distinctly refused to do it. 5035. The publisher had all the benefit of the profit arising from the book ? — I believe so, entirely; I am not prepared to say that the writer of the book got no profit. I do not know what arrangement he might have made. The publisher at Eton has two or three times applied to me to revise a book, or to pub- lish it. I have considered the m.atter over in my own mind, and it has resulted in my not doing it, Ijut he expressed himself perfectly willing to pay a proper price. 5036. You are not then able to say that no pecuniary benefit, arising out of the sale of the book, went to the master or editor of the book ? — I am not pre- pared to say that at all. Mr. Williams was very anxious that I i^hould undertake a re-edition of the "Eton Compendium of Geography," a subject in which I am rather interested. I considered the subject in my mind, but I found it was so admirably done in Dr. Smith's new publication, that I said this is the book we ought to have, what is the use of doing it ourselves ? 5037. Supposing you had undertaken it, when it had once been published there would have been a JUBLIC SCHOOLS COMMISSION: — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 173 a sort of umlerstanding on the part of the school that it should be used ? — Yes. 0038. You refused to interfere with the books in the open niarliet ? — Yes, and I am very happy to say the Head Master has now adopted it. 5039. Perhaps, having declined, you would not object to state what the publisher offered you ? — He did not offer me any definite sum. The matter did not go further than the opening of negotiations, as it were. He expressed himself willing to pay a proper price, and if I had undertaken it, I should have consulted some friends well informed on the subject as to what I ought to take. 5040. According to the custom of the school, or the custom of the open market ? — No, as to the custom of the market. 5041. {Lord Clar€?ido7i.) As to the army class, do you consider that that has so entirely failed, that you would not wish anything of the sort ? — No. 5042. In what way would you consider it failed ?— I consider it failed in this way, when the army class came up to me, it was composed of the very idlest and most worthless boys that could be picked out, and they had joined it for the purpose of shirking the work. 5043. Were they really going into the army ? — I believe they were, but they were not intending to prepare for the army at Eton ; almost every one of them intended to go to private tutors. 5044. They did not go into this army class witliout the knowledge and consent of their parents ? — No ; they persuaded their parents to consent to it. 5045. You consider that it has had a sufficient trial for you to have had evidence ns to its value ? — Certainly. The first week that I ha Stafford Northcote.) Lower boys and all ? — Yes ; all boys pay me 20 guineas. The money is sent by the dames, and I practically make no question about it. If I had 10 guineas I think I should in- quire the reason. 5274. {Lord Lyttelton.) The dame makes out the account, and sends it, and sends to you whatever your share is ? — Yes. 5275. And 20 guineas is the regular charge. Would it ever be diminished on the ground of the poverty of the parents ? — I think that 20 guineas is ji very small payment for what we do for them. 5276. If it was diminished in any case, you would make it a matter of inquiry with the dame ? — I should certainly, but most masters would not. I think 20 guineas is a perfectly fair charge. 5277. You think many masters would let it alone ? Yes. Certainly they are never told before whether a pupil is going to pay 10 guineas or 20 guineas. 5278. Why should the dame be left to settle such a point ? — I know one case of a boy who has a private tutor, and the private tutor is paid probably 150/. or 200/. a year for his board, besides costing a very con- siderable amount to the parents, and this pupil only pays the tutor 10 guineas a year. I advised him to make inquiry about it. It was a very unusual thing. 5279. In the excepted cases the tutor seems to have practically no remedy. If the dame chooses with the parent to charge the lower sum, it seems to me the tutor is inclined to let it alone ? — That is how it stands. 5280. {Lord Clarendon.) Is there any other point on which you have anything to say to us ? — No ; I think not. The witness withdrew. E. Warre, Esq. Edmond Warre, Esq., M.A., examined. 5281. {Lord Clarendon.) I believe, Mr. Warre, you are an assistant classical master at Eton ? — Yes. 5282. IIow loilg have you been so ? — I have been there for two years. I went there first merely tempo- rarily, whfen Mr. Marriott was ill. I went to take care of his house and of his pupils, just for the time. That was in 1860. I went again to Oxford, and in the middle of the summer half of 1860 I was ap- pointed, and have been there ever since. 5283. You were not on the foundation ? — No, I was an ojipidan, 5284. You were at Oxford ? — I was at Balliol first, and afterwards at All Souls. 5285. When did you take your degree ? — In 1859. 5286. With respect to the position of the collegers and their relations to the oppidans, we have hitherto had the evidence of gentlemen who, I think, were all on the foundation. As it is not very long since you left the school, perhaps you could give us your ideas of what were, in your time, the social and educational relations between the collegers and the oppidans ? — I think that as oppidans we were not inclined to associate with the collegers. I think the chief objec- tion was the gown. From the very first time one sees another boy wearing it, it at once establishes a diflerence in one's mind, and he is looked upon as another being, and although one meets him in school and at absence, he is naturally regarded as separate, fsince I have been back I have associated very much with tlie boys. I see more of them, owing to my having been drawn in among them in the rowing and rifle shooting. 1 see the same thing in full force which operated in my time, that the col- legers are not admitted as they would be otherwise, to the full benefit of the social life of the school. I think the oppidans acknowledge their intellectual superiority ; there is no doubt that the most thinking of them admit and deplore it. But what is more, I think that among the oppidans, the fact that they see the collegers get the Newcastle, as they have done for the last few years, is beginning to make a stir. For instance, among those boys with whom I was engaged in musketry shooting last half, there were a numl)er who felt it acutely. 5287. Do you think there is such a feeling of dis- couragement, with respect to the superiority of the collegers, as prevents the oppidans from trying to rival them in intellectual sulijects ? — If I understand the question right, it is whether they despise the collegers ? 5288. No, whether they are not discouraged; that the collegers have got such a mauifest and apparently sustained superiority over them in the intellectual pursuits of the school, that the oppidans feel dis- couraged and are no longer inclined to compete with the collegers ? — I hardly think that, because they comfort themselves by looking back at the list. You will see there was a period of six years when the collegers did the same thing. They look at that list and say, "It is only for a time, we shall have our time " too ;" and they always point out the clever fellows among them. Last time they were very strong in hoping that an oppidan would get it. 5289. You think there will be a desire to compete ? — I think decidedly there is a feeling about it which exists very largely and very strongly. 5290. The oppidans being ten times more in number than the collegers, of course the discredit of being beaten is all the greater ? — There is one thing to remember, which is, that the collegers are picked, and what is more, are generally better prepared. I find that since I have been there, the oppidans who have come prepared have been very much below the work ; below what I expected. 5291. That is, the oppidans placed in the fourth form ? — Yes ; they have been very badly prepared. 5292. Would you say that there is a great distinc- tion between them and the boys who come up from the lower school ? — I think the boys who come from the lower school are easier to teach in pupil-room, but they are not so easy to discipline. They are more accustomed to the habits of the place, I think, and so are easier to set to work ; whereas, with the boys who come from other schools, it is a break in their lives, and we are more apt to get a moral hold of them. 5293. You do not think that the boys who come from the lower school are much better grounded than those who come originally to the fourth form ? — I should not be prepared to say that, as a large pro- portion in the lower school have been previously rejected when trying for the upper school on their first coming, and so are much behind their years. 5294. On the whole you would say, that as far as you could judge, the preparatory schools do not do their work very eifectually ? — Certainly not ; with the exception of the boys who come and take in the remove. The fourth form boys, as a rule, are badly prepared. 5295. As to the relations of the collegers to the oppidans in the games, cricket, and the boats, the same distinction prevails, does it not ? — Yes ; a very curious circumstance happened, I think, two years ago. I am speaking with reference to cricket, which PUBLIC SCHOOLS COMMISSION: — MIXUTES OF EVIDENCE. 183 I Ho not look after much, not being n, cricketer. I understood that this was the fact, that tho lower club, which was called " sixpenny," offered the collegers to join with them, and the collegers would not ; they threw away the chance at that time. That shows that there is a spirit existing on their part as well as on the part of the oppidans, because the advance was on that occasion made by the oppidans themselves. 5296. Do you know why they refused ? — I think they regard themselves as a distinct body, and the spirit of a minority is always so much stronger, and more lively. 5297. {Lord Lytteltoii.) There are a few collegers generally in the debating society ? — Yes. Supposing u boy was thought to be a very disagreeable fellow, he would be blackballed to a certainty ; but intel- lectual merit has its weight there, no doubt. 5298. You think that if there is a certain degree of social alienation between the two classes, at all events in the debating society, where intellectual qualifications are necessarily so prominent, they over- come that alienation ? — I think so, in that particular case, but that is the only one. 5299. Do you think that a colleger and oppidan would never go out walking together on a Sunday, for instance ? — It might occur, but I should think it would be very seldom. 5300. Do they give each other leaving books ? — I have known leaving books given by collegers to oppid.ans, and by oppidans to collegers, but it has beeu generally where they have been in the cricket eleven. Collegers can be and have been in the eleven, and in that case a colleger gets to know more of them. I have known times when the leading col- legers knew more of the oppidans than they do now. I think the physique of the collegers is inferior now to what it was in my day. I do not know whether it .arises from their being overtaught and crammed when they are young, but they certainly do not infuse the s.ame spirit into their games that the oppidans do. 5301. The collegers must occasionally get into the eleven. Is it not the case that there is a sort of obligation when they are leaving for the rest of the eleven to give them leaving books ? — I should think they would feel it so. I do not know so much about the cricketing. 5302. Do you think generally, apart from such par- ticular cases, that they do not much give each other leaving books ? — I think not. 5303. {Lord Clarendon.) As to the relative pro- portion of work and amusement ; the collegers have more work than the oppidans, have they not ? — They have not actu.illy more work ; they have more ex- aminations in the year. 5304. Therefore they are obliged to work more for that ? — Yes; practically I should think it is so. 5305. With respect to the oppidans and the relative proportion of their work and amusement ; how is that : do you think it is a fair proportion ?— I think at present certainly, and I suppose it always will be so, that distinction in the games is coveted and looked up to more than distinction in any other way. It is human nature ; it comes home to the boys much more. 5306. As to the time and the preparation of work and amusement ; do you think that the two are fairly apportioned ? — I hardly think so. I think, speaking generally, that the oppidans occupy too much time with their amusements and too little with their woi-k. I think that is the state of things, but it has been better than it was in my time. 5307. {Lord Lyttclton.) We have evidence as to the number of hours that cricket is supposed to re- quire in the week. Could you say how much of a boy's week in the summer, say the captain of the boats, is given to the boats ? — I can tell you exactly what the boating would require. For instance, take the eight in training. This year the captain of the boats used to have them out every "after 12" for an hour. Then in the evening they were obliged to bo out from seven to a quarter to eight, that is the " after 6," but they were not required to do any- thing and were recommended not to do anything during the rest of the time. They might have had all the rest of the time for reading. 5308. AYliat is the ordinary time given to the boats ? — I always felt that tho boats are very lazy indeed, that they did not come out enough. The enemy of work is the idling. The idler who will not row hard or shoot hard or play for distinction, is generallj' the boy who gives less time to his lessons. 5309. It appears from what you say that cricketing takes more time than the boats ? — Yes. 5310. Are there any now who do both cricket and ])oats ? — There is an aquatic club. It is very diffi- cult to s.ay when they play. It is quite optional; they sometimes have a match, but I think it was the exception and not the rule. 5311. Have you ever known any who were in both the eight and the eleven ? — I believe one boy, last year, was very nearly in the eleven, but he was an exceptional case. 5312. It is very rare ? — Very rare indeed. 5313. What more have you to say as to amuse- ments ? — With reference to the boating, my general observation has been this : that the idling in boats, the idling about the river, is what is most prejudicial to the school ; we do all we can to stop it. ^Ve have a staff of watermen who are posted at difterent places to prevent them going down into certain backwaters and back streams, but the idling about is, I think, the worst fault connected with boating. The object I have had in view while working with them has been to infuse a sort of energy into it, so as to make them really row in order to be able to row well. 5314. Is that idling at all connected with drinking ? — I think that has been stopped to a great extent. It is a curious thing that since the year 1854, the habit of going up to Jlonkey Island, which is a row of six miles, became the fashion, and now they row the 12 miles, instead of seven or less, as they used to do. 5315. {Sir Stafford Kortlicotc.) Is it common to go up to Monkey Island ? — Yes. 5316. Punting is not allowed now ? — That has been stopped for a long time. 5317. {Lord Clarendon.) Why is punting for- bidden? — With special reference to drinking, idlinoraneousIy a considerable amount of special instruction. When I speak of the necessities of the times and the exigen- cies of parents, I think also that all that special in- struction properly considered may help most materially to the two great points of education which I spoke of before; and then tliere are some things, such as a certain amount of natural history and mathematics, and soon, which I think are quite essential ; to wliich I should certainly add one of the most perfect of all languages in my view, the French language ; at least that or German ; and I should be very glad to see added to that some amount of instruction in the principles of music and drawing. It seems to me, therefore, if you lay down those two things as principles, the practical questions are, how j-ou can secure and improve the one without sacrificing the other ; which leads to a third question, of what is the proper limit to which that second branch is to be carried ou in education, and how it is to be carried on. My notion with regard to Eton, from my own recollection, is that it is desirable rather to perfect the scholar- ship than to enlarge the knowledge of what, to use a short term, I will call specialiies, and certain details have occurred to me which I shall take the liberty of mentioning, by which, I think, that might be done. I think, however, before I go to them, perhaps I ought to state what I conceive to be the true limit for the special instruction. My notion about that is, that you are not to try to make either a perfect soldier, or a perfect doctor, or anything else of the kind, but that you have to bring the mind on by sound instruction in the elements of all those Aa 2 liyht Hon. Sir J. T. Cvlcriil(^\ 14 July 18G2. 188 PUBLIC SCHOOLS COlDriSSION :— MINUTES OF EVIDEJ^CF. ETON. things which you profess to teach, and to bring the boy's mind into such a state that ho shall be more Jiight Hon. Sir docile and more ready to embrace the more perfect J. T. Cohridije. knowledge, which will be given to him afterwards, - — when he comes to his own particular destination. I 14 July 1SC-. ^j^.^^j.^ ._^ ^j^^ lecture you have referred to, I have stated my opinion that, even in the way of teaching, you cannot expect any penson in a public scliool, any instructor whom you may employ, to do the particular thintr, as to its details, so well as it may be done after the "boy has left Eton. My belief is, that if the mind is perfectly instructed, and well taught in the mere rudiments, the lad, in that condition, will certainly make more rapid progress, and ultimately jret on better than the lad who has not been so ti-ained beforehand in scholarship and in general information. Then, I think, there is another ad- vantage in the limitation I propose, which is this — if you attempt to go much beyond the elements you mnst do one of two things — you must either have two schools, or, at some particular period of education, you nuist make the boys branch oft' into two divisions. I do not say that, in point of detail, that could never be done ; but, I think, it would be extremely difficult to carry on a public school well upon such a system as that ; whereas the advantage of the limitation is, that all this being, up to the extent I propose in my own mind, requisite to the per- fection of a gentleman's education, all boys ought to study them up to that point, and all, I think, would be able to study them up to that point. Therefbre, practically, I come to this — I say, make your scholar- ship as perfect as you can, but, at the same time, lie carrying on these collateral branches of education ; and I think this may be done. No doubt you have had information which may very much qualify what I am going to say, but, my opinion is, that that might very well be done by a better economy of time in the mode of teaching. In the first place, 1 think, if the lads were more thoroughly grounded than, I think, Eton boys usually have been, in the elements both of grammar and composition, you would make all their subsequent progress in the classics capable of being taken on at a greater pace. I think if you did that, you might also advance them into the higher books of the language at an earlier period than you now do. I think if you were not to devote such an enormous amount of time to Homer, Virgil, and Horace, you might make them just as good Homeric, Virgilian, and Horatian scholars as they are now, and, at the same time, enable them to devots more time to the Tragedians, Philosophers and Historians. Going back to my owu case, I was six years at Eton, and 1 got into the fifth form, the first remove after I came. I was full live years in the fifth form, and, during the whole of that time, week after week the main teacliing of the school was Homer, Virgil, and Horace. We never ceased doing Homer, Virgil, and Horace. No doubt the result of that is visible in Etonians, they are very familiar with quotations from Homer, Virgil, and Horace, and Horace they have almost by heart. 5419. {Lord Lyttelton.) Is it still the case ?— I am speaking of my own recollections. Perhaps it may not be so now. I premised what I have said with saying that very likely my statement might require qualification. Supposing that to be the case I should have said that if in the higher parts of the school for the summer half-year, from Easter to the Election, you returned to Homer, Virgil, and Horace, and had nothing at all to do with them dnring the remaining half-years, nothing would be lost by it and a great deal gained. Then I think you ought to diminish your classes ; because it is quite obvious that one man with 20 boys up to him can teach them with more certainty, and as much in half an hour as the same man can with 40 in an hour ; his actual time is never I believe so long as an hour. I think too time might be gained, especially for the higher classes, if what is called " construing " in the tutor's pupil-room were largely modified, if not wholly given up. There is another thing which I should suggest, — that would be with a view to the higher parts of the school. In my day what was called Play, and Lord Lyttelton, no doubt, understands what I mean, was the hardest work we had to do, and it was the Head Master alone who took the Play class. Now I think you might very usefully call upon the Lower Master to take a second Play class, and it would be a very useful thing for him, as he is in his own school always coulincd to quite the lowest parts of Latin and Greek. If he had once or twice a week a class of the higher part of the school to take, it would imjuove his teaching powers, and be an additional motive to the electors to be very careful whom they elected as Lower Master ; they could not make the place a mere retreat for a woni-out man ; not that I insinuate they have done so. If he became a candidate for the Head Mastership he would only be the more fit for it. The efli^ct on the school would be this ; you would enable the Head Master to reduce the number of his class and thereby carry ont what I say, making it more individual teaching on his part, and you would at the same time introduce a greater number of the school into Play. 5420. {Sir S. Northcote.) Perhaps it will be con- venient if you will say what " play " is ? — I am afraid I may be speaking of what is antiquated. In my day, except we were private pupils and did jjrivate business with our tutors, the only way in which we could get anything beyond Homer, Virgil, and Horace, and a few extracts from the Poetce and Scriptorcs Grteci and liomani, was in Play which occurred once and sometimes twice a week and which lasted for an hour ; in Play we did some of the Tragedians, or Aristophanes, or parts of Thucydides or Plato ; in short higher books than we did usually in school. I think it would be very useful if the Lower Master were called upon to take a second class, and if the Head Master has now 40 j^ou might add 20, and each of them might have 30 boys up to Play. In addition to that, I would make the rewards of the school extend beyond those for composition ; I would make them extend to accurate and elegant construing. Boys should be sent up for good, as it is called, for accurate and eleg.ant construing for a period of time. I dare say your Lordships are familiar enough with that anecdote in Lord Stanhope's Life of Pitt where Pitt says he thinks he acquired all his facility with the English language from the practice which his father put upon him from an early age of render- ing as accurately and as well as he could, passages from the classics. I think it is rather a fault of Eton boys to be loose and careless and ungrammatical in their mode of rendering the classics. They kuow the passages very well, but if you put them to con- strue they give very often ungrammatical and badly expressed English. I think if that was done it might be found useful. I think it would now help me if the Commissioners were to ask any questions they wished on what I have said. 5421. {Lord Clarendon.) There are two questions I would venture to interpose ; I think the masters we have had before us have not at all disputed the importance of extending the education in the manner you wish, but they all contend that it is impossible for the time to be found. Perhaps I might iisk you to say a little more about that, and about how large you think the provision should be ? — If I could do exactly as I wished I should reduce the divisions by a full half ; one way to test it is by how often in the course of a half year a boy will probably be called up. I know, in my time, it was the commonest thing in the world for a boy to be a month or six weeks without being called up at all. I am aware, however, it is very much better since that time. 5422. That is the question, and how far this ar- rangement of the classes might be worked in a man- ner to furnish this time which it is now declared is not to be found ? — I feel the difficulty of speaking against the authority of these gentlemen ; I have no doubt they are sincerely desirous of making all modifica- tions which they believe useful. Would you allow PUBLIC SCHOOLS COMMISSION: — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 189 me to nsk have any questions been put as to such things as "derivations"? 5423. {Lord Ltjttelton.) They have been alluded to? —All the way up the school, up to the iif'lh form at least, boys were bound to do what were called " deri- vations," that is, taking all the important words out of their lesson, writing them down, and putting the derivation of the word and the meaning of it opposite. I think that was merely a waste of tiuie with the boys, if they were thoroughly examined iu school ; and therefore if you adopt a system by which they might be spared exercises of that kind, j'ou might (airly call upon them to be somewhat longer in school. School-time has varied. In my time there was nothing done before breakfast but looking over exercises and s.aying by heart something which was very imperfectly said. The length of the school- times varies from half an hour to three cpiarters of an hour. I do not really know why there should not be some addition to the school-times which would give this facility, that if the boys went up and iu an hour did as much as they do now in two three- quarters of an hour, certain school-times in the week might be devoted to other subjects. I cannot pre- tend to work it out with more precision than that ; and then, as I said before, I am rather surprised to see the numbers in classes are so small ; I should have thought that about 30 would be a very fair numlier. 5424. {Mr. Vaughaii.) With regard to your ex- perience of the number of boys in a form, is it ac- cording to your experience that different masters with the same number of boys in a form, by their mode of managing the form kept the l)oys in vcrj' different degrees up to their work ? — I cannot but suppose that that might very well be ; I cannot say it as a matter of ray experience; I could not go back so far ; but there was something, I think, ingeniously contrived for ■waste of time in my day. For example, the sixth form went up with the whole of the upper division of the fifth, and I suppose now, the sixth form go up with a certain part of the upper division ; however that may be, the rule always was to call nji a sixth form boy who went through the w-hole of the lesson, the con- sequence was that all the iifth form boys knew that during that time they were safe and could not be called upon. As soon as the sixth form had gone through the whole of the lesson, what remained of the time was devoted to the fifth form. They were called up and the sixth form lay on their oars, and they cared very little for what was going on. It was the same thing when we went to construe with our tutors. One hoy was always called upon to construe the whole lesson, and the other boys listened or did not listen, as they pleased. As soon as he had done, he and the upper part of the pupils went away, and the remainder of the fifth form pupils went through the lesson once again with him. It seems to me in both cases there was a great waste of time, and the sort of teaching that was applicable to the sixth form boys was not by any means applic.^ble to the lower pai't of the class that was up. I know in Dr. Good- all's time it was a lecture of great utility to the higher boys, but the lower bo3-s paid little or no attention to it, and the higher boys in turn paid no attention to the grammatical part which went on afterwards. Th.at would be an illustration of what I meant, and such a system no doubt would allow of a great deal of shirking. I do not suppose that was so to the same extent in any other part of the school ; but independently of that, I should think that it must depend very much on the manner and ability of the master, whether the boyg were attending or not. 5425. {Mr. Twisleton.) Would not something depend also on the habit of taking places in a form. Supposing a master had 40 boys in a class, and no places were taken, and another had 40, and places were taken ; could not the latter test the eiBciency much better than in the former case ? — I suppose he would. As we were at Eton it would have been an extremely inconvenient course, and I should rather obviate that I think by rewards. 14 July 1802. 5426. You would not wish places to be taken in the ETON, fifth form ? — I would have them taken at the half- yearly trials by all means. liight Hon. Sir 5427. My question referred to taking places when •^- ^- (^"lerulge. the lessons were being heard ? — You mean, I presume, that a boy should take or lose places in the form, but remain in the same position iu the school. Eton boys would not like it, I think. 5428. Is it not a mode of sharpening the attent'on, that a boy nniy take a place in the form at the time ? —Clearly ; one sees it in all the national schools ; it is the life of the national school. 5429. {Sir S. Northcote.) Do not yon consider there would be a danger in having a class too small, as well as in having it too large ; that in too small a class you would lose something in the emulation and the life of the work ? — Certainly, if too small ; but then I can hardly think that a class of 30 would be open to that objection. 5430. I am speaking of classes ranging from 30 to 40 ; you are speakiug of a time when the upper division of the fifth form used to be something like 100, or even more ? — It was 200 at least. 5431. Having reg.ard to the certain number of absences that there will be from ill-health, or other- wise, do you not think that from 35 to even as high as 40 in the lower part of the school is a very manage- able class, especially if an hour were allowed, instead of three-quarters of an hour? — If you gave an hour, I should think so certainl}'. There ought to be a fair chance ; a boy should never consider himself quite safe from not being called up. 5432. Is it not possible for a judicious master, who knows how to manage it, to ascertain pretty well in a class of 38 boys, whether they have all learnt their lessons by asking questions, or by calling them up very frequently ? — I should think he might. 5433. {Lord T.i/ttcUon.) We have been told by some of the masters, that with their present number, they can generally call up every boy about twice a, week ? — I was not aware of that. 5434. {Sir S. JVori/tco/e.) Should you consider it satisfactory, if that could be done ? — I would rather have more. 5435. There is another point which you have men- tioned, as to their exclusive reading of Homer, Virgil, and Horace ; are you aware what the present work is in the upper part of the school ? — No. I cannot say exactly. 5436. I should like to lay this table C. before you, and to ask whether on the whole it appears to specify what you think should be taught iu the way of classics. I see that in the sixth form first division, which consists of the twenty in the sixth form, and 12 other, boys, making 32 altogether, in addition to the work" which I suppose used to be done of Homer, and some portions of Horace, that last summer half they were reading Cicero's Epistles, the Annals of Tacitus Euripides, and the whole of the Agamemnon of jEschylus, some selections from Lucretius, Thucydides, from Reynolds's edition, not from Scriptorcs (Iraci, and some speeches of Demosthenes. I see that in the next division, consisting of a part of the upper fifth form, 32 boys, they were reading Thucydides and .iEschylns, and some speeches of Demosthenes, as well as from Lucretius, all in addition to the Homer, Virgil, and Horace. I presume that that indicates a greater amount of general Attic schoolwork than was the case in your time ? — Very much so. Whatever is beyond that, as I stated before, in my time was entirely dependent on play, and that applied only to the upper part of the school ; besides this there was private business with your tutor, if you were a private pupil, and what boys learned by themselves, which was very considerable in amount. 5437. Going down lower in the school I see that pretty nearly the same books are read in the regular schoolwork as were read iu your own time ? — Yes. 5438. At the time you were at Eton were there a considerable portion of the boys who were not private A a 3 190 PUBLIC SCHOOLS COMMISSION :— MINUTES OF EVIDENCK r.TON. liir/ht Hon. Sir J. 'T. ColeriJye. 14 July 1662. pupil?, or who did not attend private business ?— A very large proportion indeed. o-l;]9. Arc jou aware that now every boy in the seliool, or, at all events, every boy in the fifth form, has all (he advantages of a. private pupil ? — No, cer- tainly not. As late as Dr. Keate's time, he would not allow the collegers to have a private tutor. Ho said it was inconsistent that a boy on the foundation should be able to pay a private tutor. 5440. {Lord Lyttelton.) They never do pay ?— Now they do not. 5441. {Sir S. Northcote.) They do not pay, but they receive all the advantages and go on in private business exactly the same ? — Yes. 5442. Arc you aware that the private business is now so conducted by many tutors, and, I should think, by most tutors, that boys as low as the lowest division of the fifth form are reading Greek play, and even Aristophanes, with their private tutors ?^No, certainly not. 5443. Presuming that to be so, would not that, to some extent, qualify the opinion you have given as to the necessity for .altering the school business, so as to bring in a larger range of books ?— No doubt it would, supposing it' to be effectually done, but private busi- ness is quite at the option of the tutors. I have heard of some tutors having a notion that the whole scheme of private business was a mistake, that it ought not to be encouraged, and that the whole of the teaching ought to be in school. 5444. {Blr. Vaiighnn.) Have you any opinion on that point yourself, as to the advisability of having so large a system of private instruction out of class ? — I have an opinion very much in favour of it, for this reason, — I graft that very much upon what is, I think, of immense importance to Eton, what is called the tutorial S3'stem. Assuming you h.ave read, which is the only part of your evidence which I have read, what Mr. .Stephen Ilawtrey has written, I entirely agree with what he says as to the advantages of the tutorial system ; and I should like to say but one word about that, because, I think, there is one point which he has overlooked. It is of immense import- ance to a boy, to have two intellects upon him in the way of education, to have, first, the tutor and then the master in school, in whose class he is. That has also this advantage, that the tutor by no means supersedes the master, nor the master the tutor. The tutor is a person whom the parent selects, and to whom the lad has a peculiar relation, and lie is the same person usually during the whole time the boy is at Eton — therefore he acquires more influence over him and knows him better than the master. On the other hand, the master, who sees him in school with his class-fellows, hears him at lesson, and looks over his exercises will often correct bad habits, or faults of taste and manners which may have escaped the tutor. I think this double system is of immense value, and, therefore, it is I say— let the tutor do as much as you please with him in his owii private room. 5445. Should you, or should you not, consider that it would be an abuse of that advantage if anvthin"' vicious in the class system, instead of being cor- rected in the class system, should be left to be counter- acted by the system of the tutor ? — Clearly. As far as I could I would correct that ; but, if you have a school of the immense size of which Eton is at present, and you have reduced your classes down to what is a fair amount, you must expect a residuum still of some inconvenience. J really am not aware of the evil you point out. 5446. {Sir S Northcote.') Are you aware that trials for getting from one part of the school to another, are now conducted upon a much stricter principle than they formerly were, and that the boys are placed entirely by merit ?— I am quite aware of that,. 5447. And that those trials are carried on much higher up in the school than formerly ? Yes. 5448. Are you also aware it is the practice for notice to be given, that, in trials, books which did not form part of the regular school books, will be taken up, and that notice is given, for instance, the Hecuba will form part of the trial from the lower into the middle division, and that the tutors prepare their pupils who are going up for those trials in those books ? — I was not aware of that, and I do not think it is of much importance if the boys are to be prepared in those extra books by their tutors. If they were not, I should think it a mistake; an examination is much more useful if it is confined to seeing what the boys have been .about in the course of their ordinary teaching. 5449. Docs not that give a reality to the private business, which, otherwise, it might want, that the work which the boy has done with his pri^■ate tutor in private business affects the place he takes ? — Yes ; it comes to the same thing. 5450. Does it not come to this, that classical work at Eton is more diffused than it formerly was, that it is carried higher, and embraces a larger range of hooka than formerly ? — I suppose it does, at the same time I very much doubt whether the best boys are better scholars. 5451. {Mr. Twisleton.) Is it your opinion that the boys do not write as good Latin verses as they did formerly ? — I think so. With regard to that Sir Stafi ford Northcote and I both met as trustees of Tiverton school with Mr. Lonsdale, who had been sent from Balliol, to examine for the Balliol scholarship, He had also been examining at Eton for the Newcastle, and he said it was remarkable how superior the Greek at Eton was to the Latin, He thought the boys had fallen off much in Latin, and had very much improved in Greek. 5452. That was the precise point I was going to put, whether although they do not write Latin verses so well, they do not now write Greek iambics, which formerly were omitted nearly altogether ? — Yes. He said it was quite extraordinary, both the facility and the accuracy with which the boys composed in Greek, He mentioned one or two boys who, in a short time, had poured out their 60, 70, or 80 Greek iambics with hardly a flaw in them. 5453. {Sir S. Northcote.) Might it not partly account for that, that in the upper part of the 5tli boys now leain a great deal of Greek pl.ay by heart ? — I have no doubt it would, if they really and truly do learn it by heart ; but, npon that very matter, you see here how many lines boys are supposed to say. I see, I think, in one plac« 45 lines, of course it is perfectly out of the question that the master can hear the boys the whole. I do not know how it is now, but in my day it was a very imperfect learning by heart. Few boys, in fact, took the trouble ot learning their lessons through. 5454. {Lord Lyttelton.) I think you said just now that it is lietter that the classical examination should deal with the actual work the boys have done in the school ; would you confine it to that ? — I would con- fine the examination to what the boys had been taught. 5455. Including that for the Newcastle scholarship? — No, that is another matter. 5456. You mean only school examinations ? — Yes, .5457. But not as to the prizes for general compe- tition ? — No, that is different. 5458. With regard to modern languages, do you conceive that boys' minds are generally capable of learning concurrently so many languages as might appear to be included in t^at term ; a boy may be learning his own Language incidentally, of course, as the medium througli which it all comes, and Greek, Latin, French, and German ? — I think there is hardly any limit to what young people may do in that way. I should find it extremely difficult now to learn two languages, or even one ; but it is astonishing with what r.apidity we see children acquire languages. All languages should be learnt when people are young. PUBLIC SCHOOLS COMMISSION : — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 191 5459. Adding mathematics too, is there no danger of imposing too uiiieh on boys' minds? — I do not think you will impose too much on the mind if you take care not to impose too much on the body. Of course there must always be discretion in that matter. I do not think it arises from the multiplicity of tilings they are taught if they are well taught, the object being not to make a show, but really to lay the foundations accurately. 54(30. (J/;\ Twislcto/i.) AYonId it appear to you that there would be any objection to a preliminary examination of boys admitted into public schools in modern language, a matriculation which would require ii certain knowledge of French ? — Would you apply that as a general rule or as a universal rule ? o4(jl. As a universal rule to public schools, on en- trance to all parts of the upper school ? — I should, I see no objection to it at all. It requires common sense and discretion not to push that too far. 5462. {Mr. l'uiif//nt)i.) I think I understood you to say that it was consistent with your view of educa- tion that there should be an imparting of rudimentary knowledge in many collateral branches of education ? — I think so indeed. 5463. Do 3'ou or do you not think that the giving of that rudiraentaiy knowledge in those collateral branches would itself very often be a very valuable discipline ? — I think independent!}' of the professional advantages gained by it, it may be made very material as a p.art of general education and training of the mind. 5464. In what way do you think it would be pre- ferable to cari-y out that system. I suppose it would be necessary that there should be a great many sub- jects in which a boy might get instruction in a public school, as for instance you mentioned modern lan- guages, mathematics, and I think you added physical science. Do you think the better method would be to insist upon all boys doing a certain amount of each of those, or to have a certain variety and number of collateral subjects, the selection of some of which should be compulsory on the boys ? — I am rather for making the system of the school apply to all. When you come to the universities I can quite under- stand, the mind being more developed, that it may appear quite absurd to attempt to make all men scholars or all men mathematicians. If that be so, let the bent be followed, but my notion is that all minds are capable of learning the rudiments, and that very often the most apparently unfavourable disposi- tion for it, if that first difficulty be overcome, may develop itself into a very favourable genius for it. 5465. To illustrate your views ; it should not be this, that a parent should say, " I should like my son, " beyond classics and a certain portion of mathematics, " to take modern langu.ages as his subject, and that " he should regularly set himself to that," or that another parent should saj', " Considering the pros- " pects of my son, I prefer on the whole that ho " should have his collateral education as it were in " physical science, and that that should be his study," but that on the other hand you think it would be better that all should learn all ? — I think so. Your proposition would involve ignorance in some sub- jects which I think all the boys ought to know some- thing about. 5466. That would be so, but I wished to know whether you thought it would be better to get a tho- rough teaching of the particular knowledge, or to have a general knowledge but less complete ? — You would have some boys who would persuade their fathers and mothers that they would like music, or drawing, or something of that kind, and who after all would come out knowiug really little even about that. 5467. I understand that classics you would considei indispensable; do you think that, allowing time for that to be vigorously prosecuted, you would find time for doing all the others in such a manner as to produce a satisfactoi-y result ? — I think so. I cannot answer these statements as upon paper, but then I would 14 July 18G2. make this observation, that often if a thing is put ETOX. on a school to do, me.aus will be found of doing it which did not present themselves in the first instance Ji':i/it Hon. Sir to those minds which, giving them all due credit for -^^ T.Cukrklge. zeal and liberality, get into a certain kind of groove and which have their prejudices. I believe if Dr. Goodall had been asked some years ago if it was pos- sible to do even what is now done he would have said it was utterly impossible. 5468. Ha\ e you considered the subject sufficiently long, and its details, to say at all the order and manner in which you would have those subjects going on, i.e., the order in which they should follow each other in the school system, if taken successively, or whether they should be all concurrent from the bcginninf; ? — No, I iiave not, nor should I like to give an opinion on that without knowing more thoroughly what the present Eton sj'stem is, and how it might be accom- modated to what I should desire to see done. 5469. {Lord Clarendon.) I believe your opinion is that boys had belter stay some time longer in the lower school in order to fit them better for the u|;per school, that they would be bettor grounded and better qualified to receive instruction in the school in that way, and that that might produce an economy of time? — I think it would be a great improvement if about half the fourth form still remained in the lower school and the school was divided dilferently, if you had the third form, and then you might call it a remove or something of that kind, and then after that a shorter time in the fourth form. 5470. So much time would not be consumed in the fourth form in what may be called the rudimentary part of education ? — I think not. 5471. That, consequently, would produce an eco- nomy of time ? — Yes. 5472. {Mr. Vaugliuii.) I think j'ou hinted that you thought that music or drawing, or perhaps both, would form a very fit suliject for instruction ? — Yes, and it is very desirable if it could be done. o473. {Lord Clarendo/i.) Do you not think that the inferior social and educational position which the mathematical masters have hitherto occupied at Eton must be detrimentid to the study of that which they teach ? — I should think so ; but I understand that has gone out very much now ; whatever is considered at all in the light of an extra is always at a disad- vantage, I think. If boys fancy that Eton is nothing but Greek and Latin, anything beyond that suiters. All I am able to say with respect to that is this ; I believe what I am about to suggest has been to a cer- tain extent carried out, but I think whenever a teacher has had a gentleman's education he should be put on precisely the same footing as the regular assistants. In all respects, as regards his dress and everything else, he should be the same, and should have the same authority. 5474. {Mr. Thompson.) Do yon mean a university education ? — I purposely said a gentleman's educa- tion ; for instance, a dr.awing-master or a music- master may not have had a university education, and yet may have been lilierally educated. 5475. That would be an additional reason for ren- dering those studies which you think essential to education at Eton part of the regular curriculum ? — Certainly. 5476. {3Ir. Vaughan.) With regard to music and drawing which you have alluded to in particular, you think you would find a sufficient degree of general aptitude if boys' 'faculties were tried on the subject, to be able to teach both of them to all boys ? — I think to a certain point it might be useful, and if the man had no taste he would stop at that, but still he Avould have acquired what was useful. I remember that a great many years ago now, I was at Pestalozzi's Institute wdien the old man was alive, and I brought away some of his copy-books and drawing books, and it appeared to me that all the bo3'S in that immense school were drawing figures, chairs and tables and so on, all drawing by perspective. He said he found everybody could do it. If it did not go beyond that, Aa 4 192 PUBLIC SCHOOLS COMMISSION :— MINUTES OF EVIDENCE, ETON. Ji;r;ht Hon. S!r J. T. Cokrid'je. 14 July 1862. the boy woulJ -still have acquired that which woulil be useful to him in after life. 5477. (.Vr. Thompson.) Are you aware whether there are any Testalozzians surviving in England or elscwlicre ?— I do not know. 3478. You do not know what were the results ot that education in after life ?— No ; it was as far back as 1814 I heard a little about it ; at that time 1 passed some half hour or so with him in his school. 5479. {Mr. Vaiighan.) I suppose those two sub- iects you have mentioned, music and drawing, would be susceptible of a great deal of home cultiv.itioii ; with something soundly imparted at school, and with the holidays intervening, there would be a great opportunity for carrying them out in the domestic circle ? — Yes, certainly. _ _ 5480. {Lord Clarendon.) With the subdivision ot the classes which you contemplate, and greater time allowed to the classes than is now given to them, do not you think it would be necessary to increase the number of masters ?— There is very little difficulty in increasing the number of the mathematical masters to any number that might be required. There is this sort of difficulty >vith regard to the assistant masters, that you embark them in rather a hazardous specula- tion, and if the numbers of the school should fall olT, there might be a difficulty ; besides which every one of them must have a house. They have not at present, but they all come with the expectation of a house. 5481. Supposing that each assistant master on arriving had a sufficient salary, sufficient to attract fully competent men ; do you think there would be any difficulty in getting them, and increasing the number of masters to the necessary amount, even without giving them houses, or the expectation of houses ? — I believe the assistants at Winchester have a very small payment indeed, 200/. or 300/. a year, or something of that sort, and I believe there is no difKculty in obtaining them from the upiversities. 5482. Do you nqt think that system would be a better one than that which now prevails, of merely giving the assistants 40 guineas a year ? — That pay- ment was considered, I think, to be little more than nominal. I do not suppose the masters cared about it in considering the eligibility of the appointment. 5483. Do you think, as fur as you can judge, that the teaching power at present at Eton is sutKcient ? — I should very much doubt whether it is ; but then, on the other hand, there is this to be borne in mind : the intellectual and moral power of the Head Master ought to be increased in some proportion to the increase in the number of the assistants. A man may be very well alile to keep five, six, or seven assistants in that moderate degree of subordination •which is necessary to the harmonious and regular working of the system ; but the difficulty is much greater if he has to deal with 25 or 30 of these men ; he ought to be so superior to them all as to exercise a considerable intluence over them personally. 5484. (Mr. Vanghan.) It is your view, is it not, that under any circumstances the Head Master should be on the whole thoroughly the superior ? — Yes. 5485. {Lord Clarendon.) Should the assistant masters have a sutRciently consultative voice ; should they always be called into council by the Head Master ? — -I can hardly say how that would be. Supposing the Head Master to retain the predominant influence which I think he ought to have, then I think, as a consultative body, they would be most useful. I think then that they ought to be members of a sort of council of education for the seho,)l, and that they should be brought together much more than they are now. 5486. {Lord Lijttelton.) Supposing the school so full, that the proportion of 40 boj-s to each master was nearly in existence ; do you conceive that 40 boys up to a muster in class are more than enough, and also thiit 40 private pupils to a master are more than enough. Do yqu conceive that both are in excess, or cither of them ?— Do you mean both going together ? 5487. It must be so, I think. Do you think that in both respects there is an excess ; that 40 private pupils is more than a man can work, having also hia schoolwork to do, and also that 40 in class is more than he can work, having his private pupils to attend to ? I really think, that in order to get through their work conscientiously, the masters do more than they ought to do. But I think that without increas- ing their number, some alleviation might be found in altC'ration of details. For an instance I will mention one, which might easily be made. One of the things that is done on the Sunday is Scripture questions, If the Scripture questions were the same for all, reai sonably divided only according to what you might expect from different parts of the school, the duty would be but one to examine all those questions ; but as it is at present, each of the masters sets his own Scripture questions for his own class, and the conse- quence of that ia that the tutor, who may have pupils in every class, has to consider the questions and examine the answers to as many sets as there are divisions in the school. I have heard from the assistants that really it was a drudgery beyond con- ception to go through this, 5488. I was assuming that the numbers were all equally divided as near as possible, which wo know is not the case now. That leads to a question vehich you noticed in your pamphlet. The late Head JIaster and present Provost thought it de- sirable to limit the number of private pupils to 40 ; but he found, as is still the case, that in several cases there were many more than 40. Does it occur to you that there would be any injustice in requiring of those who had come on that understanding, that their number was unlimited, that they should gradually diminish it ? — I should say not. I have no idea of a vested interest of that kind. 5489. You think any tutor coming should take his place, subject to such arrangements ? — I think so ; he comes there subject to all such reforms as the Head Master from time to time may think jiroper to wake. 5490. {Mr.. Vaughan.) Considering the matter practically, as the education according to your idea at a jiublic scdiool should be so wide, and the in- structing staff' must be paid mainly out of the pockets of the parents, has it ever struck you to form an opinion as to what would be a proper remuneration for a man occupying the position of assistant master at a great public school ? — As far as Eton goes, it is a complicated question, because they also board the boys. 5491. Putting the board out of the question, I mean howsoever derived, what would be a reasonable remuneration for a man of the calibre of mind which should be found in a master in a great public school ? — I think it is what you could get them for. 5492. You think that is the question ? — I think so. 5493. Because it becomes a very important part of the arrangement to provide a great public school with all these teachers ? — The expenses of Eton would not be in the least degree affected by it. 5494. Would you just show how that would be ? — I take my boy to Eton, and whether he is one of 40 pupils, or one of 20 pupils, I pay the same. 5495. I was speaking rather with reference to the mathematical instruction, the instruction in physical science and these collateral branches, together with classics ? — I think if it was compulsory upon all the boys in the school, the payment of each should be reduced in proportion. For example, the drawing master has, 1 think, as much as 15 guineas a year ; I should conceive jf four or five guineas a year was paid by every boy, he would have most ample remunera- tion. 5496. Even with that, supposing you were under the necessity of paying four or five guineas we will say to the mathematical staff, four or five guineas to the physical science staff, four or five guineas to the drawing or musical staff^ and the present system of PUBLIC SCHOOLS COMMISSION: — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE: 103 remuneration to the classical staff, would that not, iu a great measure, increase the expense of a boy at Eton, would it not? — It might. With the reductions that would take place in the payment to each, I do not suppose it would increase it 20/. a year. But if you add to the ntunber of things taught, you must of course increase the expense, and whether taught at Eton or elsewhere, the teacher must be paid. 5497. {Mr. Thompson.) You do not think the pre- sent fees paid at Eton exorbitant, do you ? — They are so mixed up, that it is difficult to say how much is directly paid for teaching. 5498. Twenty guineas is said to be the remuneration when private tuition is had at Eton ? — That seems to be so, but in a large sense that includes what is paid for the tuition received in school. 5499. There are six guineas for the Head Master, four guineas for mathematics, and, besides that, many boys have a mathematical tutor, which costs 10 gui- neas more ; then there are 10 guineas for French, and 12 guineas for German ? — I have said that I think the payments for French, German, and so on, might be very much reduced if made compulsory. 5500. You would not think it jwssible to comprise all the possible expenses of an Eton boy in, sa)', for example, some 40Z. or 50/. Do you not think that would be as much as, compared with other schools, it would be even decent to demand of ])arents for the thorough education of their children, for boys of ages ranging from 10 to 17 or 18. As I gather at present, it is impossible for a boy to scrape through without paying 40/. a year ? — For tuition only ? 5501. Y'es, including French and such mathematics as he can get from attending in class, without any extra instruction, not learning German, not learning drawing, still less Italian, not learning music, nor extra mathematics, but simply getting the barest necessaries of education for a man in the position of a gentleman who is going up to one of the univer- sities ; he has now to pay for that 42/., surely that is a great deal ? — As long as those extra subjects are only had recourse to by a special number of boys, in order to insure anything like an adequate remunera- tion on the whole to the teacher, the sum paid must be higher than it need be perhaps if you made all boys do it. It is one thing what each boy pays to it, and another thing what is the master's total remune- ration. Y'ou must lirst settle what is fair compensa- tion to the master, and then subdivide it among the boys, and the greater the number of learners, of course the smaller is the sum paid by each. 5502. No doubt that would meet the objection, to a great extent, but, I apprehend, we should very soon hear of private tutors in French, and private tutors in German, and so on ? — Unless 3'ou say at once there should be no such thing as private tuition ; and you would, then, only be restraining parents who would make any sacrifice for the education of their children. Supposing a gentleman was bringing his son up to the Army or the Civil Service, he will say, " It is " worth my while to pay extra to get more French " or mathematics," or whatever it may be. 5503. Must not the consequence of that be that the master will have a strong temptation to neglect his duty in his class or form, in order that the boys may be induced to have recourse to his assistance as private tutor. Is not that the temptation. A clergyman and a gentleman, such as a classical master would be, may be supposed to resist such a tempta- tion, but can you expect that, for instance, of a French master or drawing master ? — I can hardly answer that ; of course it is a temptation. I do not see any objection to forbidding all private tuition of that kind. 5504. You never, in your experience, have found that it was a temptation which you had reason to think was yielded to ? — No. 5505. {Sir S. Korthcote.) Y^ou opened a very wide question in what you said just now, as to the relations between the Head Master and the as- sistant masters. I should like to ask you whether 1. 14 July 1S62. you think the power of a Head Master to influence ETON the school, or to guide the assistant masters as he ought to do, is one that must be limited by the HhjIu Hon. Sir number of the assistant masters. I mean, whether "'• ^'- Culeridtje. it is possible for any man satisfactorily to deal with more than a certain number of assistants ? — I do not quite see that it is not practicable. Much of course must depend on the men. Y''ou would not have two Head Masters ? 5506. No. The school, at present, has not more masters than enough for the number of boys. Sup- posing the school to Increase, it would follow that the number of masters ought to be increased also. Do you think it is possible that such increase might go on to such a point that the Head Master would really be unable to guide and control the school, even sup- posing him to be a superior man ? — I c.^n conceive that both the school and assistants might, from their numbers, become unmanageable. 5507. Do you think it would be possible, instead of having a general council of assistants to assist the Head Master, that some system of organization might be in- troduced by which the Head Master might manage the* school, not in concert with the whole of" the assistants, but with some of the seniors of them holding a position of superiority over the others ? — If a council of that kind was well constituted, no doubt it would be more convenient than having it composed of the whole body. Y'ou must be prepared to say how you will constitute it, and who is to appoint it. 5508. It has been suggested that this plan might be adopted — that, instead of putting the second assistant master to take the second division, and the third assistant master to take the third division, and so forth, that the school should be divided into certain natural and larger divisions, say the 5th form, the remove, and the 4th form, and that one of the senior mastei's should take the general charge of the 5th form, another the general charge of the remove, and another the general charge of the 4th form, and that these masters, being a sort of viceroys, should constitute a council to the Head Master, and that they should be in direct conmiunication with the assistant masters, having charge of the diU'erent subdivisions of the 5th form, remove, and 4th form ? — Would you make those viceroys as you call them permanent ofhcers ? 5509. Y'es. The idea would be that probably the senior assistant master, or an assistant master, when he came to a certain point in seniority, would be appointed master of the 4th form, or whatever title you like to give him ; and that, when the mastership of the division of the remove was vacant, the m.aster of the 4th form would go up to it, and the next senior assistant, if he was competent, would be appointed ma.ster of the 4th form ? — That lets in the difficulty there would be in the Head Master saying : — " Y'^ou " are not fit for it. I shall take Mr. So-and-so, and " put him into this place," 5510. How do you consider that masters should now be appointed to different divisions. Ought not the Head Master or some governing body to have the power of selection and to say, "Mr. So-and-so " shall be appointed to this division, though he is " junior to Mr. somebody else ? " — I confess I doubt very much whether that would work weU. Y'ou get your masters and you must assume you get them as well as you can. They are young, but mostly dis- tinguished persons, and the rule has always been that in the upper and lower schools respectively they go up by seniority. It would introduce great jealousy among some of them. 5511. Do you think it is possible for the Head Master really to make himself acquainted, under the present system, with the working of the whole school ? — I should doubt very much whether he was at pre- sent, but I think he might do what I think Dr. Arnold did at Rugby, and which, to a certain extent, I believe the present Head Master does. At certain times in the week he takes the fourth form, and I think he might take each class in turn from time to time. Bb 194 PUBLIC SCHOOLS COMMISSION :—JIINUTE3 OF EVIDENCE, ETU>f. J. T.Cnleriilye. 14 July 1862- 5512. Would not his own class suffer, from his "oini^ to so many divisions as there are at Eton ? — I niiihi Hull. 6Vr think it need not be so often done as to produce that. 5513. Might it not be done more satisfactorily if .one of llie senior assistant masters, having the charge of tlic fourth form, took from time to time the differ- ent divisions of that form, and was in direct relation with the Head Master, and was able to call liis atten- tion, and that of his senior colleagues, to the wants of the fourth form ?— Perhaps it might. I do not know. 5514. Supposing you do not adopt some system like that, might it not become necessary to limit the num- ber of tlie school altogether, and to say the school should not be allowed to exceed a certain number, because an increase of the school would involve such an addition to tlic staff of masters as would make it prfictically unmanageable ? — I have already stated that I think the scliool might increase to an unman- ageable number. 5515. Would you propose to limit the number of the scliool ? — I would not do it unnecessarily. I would not do it before there was a case calling for it. 5516. {Lord Lyttelton.) You do not think the pre- gent numbers arc too large ? — I do not. 5517. Have you any opinion as to what would be too many. Do you think 1,000 would be too many? — It would be very difficult, I think, to manage 1,000. If you have an effective staff, that is not the only difficulty I apprehend. It is open to another incon- venience, that the school breaks into divisions and is no longer an entire thing, fhe practical difficulty, however, as it seems to me, is in producing uniformity of action among the assistants. 5518. {Lord Clarendon.) This seems to be the place to ask you as to enlarging the field of choice for the assistant masters. Do you not think it is pre- judicial to Eton that the upper and lower masters should not be able to select wherever they could find them the best and most competent men ? — Indeed I think so, if the inability exists. At the same time I should be very sorry not to see a very large majority of Eton men among them. I think if they could now take the masters from Rugby, Harrow, and all round, and gather them together at Eton, they could hardly carry on the school. There would lie, for instance, many things which on the face of them would appear to be quite indefensible and pernicious, and which an Eton man would know meant no harm at all, and rather did good, but which a stranger would immediately set about putting an end to. 5519. I understand what is due io prestige in such a place as Eton, but is there anything which would be unattainable by a stranger, by one not educated at Eton, particularly in the very uninfluential position that an assistant master occupies. During the first year or two that he is there might he not learn and imbue himself with all the traditions of Eton ? — I think he might, undoubtedly ; he would have to learn his lesson when he came ; he would not come knowing all these things. 5520. I quite understand that, cateris paribus, the choice should be given to an Eton man. I think he would have facilities and there would be a sympathy with him that would not exist with respect to others, but still I think if Eton men are not up to the work, and if perfectly competent Eton men are not to be found, there ought to be no hesitation about selectin" men from elsewhere ? — With that qualification, that fit Eton men are not to be found, I entirely agree with you. 5521. Assuming that the great majority of the as- sistant masters will be always Eton men, do you think that the position of a man educated elsewhere would be tenable or supportable at Eton. Do you not think there would be so much prejudice against them l>oth on the part of the upper masters and the boys that it would be almost useless to have them ? I should not apprehend it much from the boys. With respect to the masters no doubt they would at first feel it an intrusion upon them. 5522. Lord Lyttelton.) Would you limit the pro- vostship, head-mastership, and undcr-mastership ab- solutely to Eton men ? — I should make a distinction between the provostship and the head and lower mastership. I do not see why, if a man has once be- come an assistant and is the best man, he should not be Head Master; I think you ought to get the best man for that you could get anywhere. 5523. Do you think the Provost should be an Eton man ? — Not essentially, but as long as there was a fitting Eton man I should prefer that it should be so. I think it is an advantage to have been at Eton. 5524. Supposing the present state of things to be unaltered substantially, do I understand you would limit the provostship absolutely to an Eton man ? — When I gave that answer I had this in my mind, that on the supposition of your having the Head and Lower master open, I would, of course, make them eligible to be Provost from their services tnere ; yet I should prefer infinitely having an Etonian as Provost, 5525. I mean as a matter of regulation ? — No, I do not think that I should absolutely make it so. 5526. {Mr. Vaughan.) We have understood, I think, most decidedly, that the habitual and syste- matic election is with the Crown ? — Yes, it never comes in the shape of a mandamus or a peremptory direction, but it is nominating a person to be elected, 5527. {Lord Clarendoti.) A conge delire, is it ?— With this difference — there is no statutable or other penalty if it is not obeyed. A conge d'elire to a Bishop must be obeyed, and if the Chapter will not elect, the Crown may punish them and appoint proj)rio molii. If the College chose to disobey any order, the Crown would be powerless to compel it. 5528. {Mr. Thompson.) Speaking abstractedly, do you think the power of election should be with the Crown or with the Fellows ? — I should wish to see the number of Fellows for another reason reduced ; that is an element in answering your question. I think on the whole 1 should prefer that under those circumstances the Crown should appoint. 5529. {Lord Clarendon.) Do you think that the Crown should appoint a man in holy orders ? — I con- fess I think clearly the Provost ought to be a clergy- man. 5530. {Mr. Txvisleton.) Would you restrict the Crown to the appointment of an Eton man ? — No; as it is at present it is not only that he must be an Eton man, but he must be an Eton man in orders, and of a certain degree ; the consequence of which is that it sometimes happens that not above one or two men exist who could be appointed. 5531. (Mr. Vaughan.) With regard to Eton mas- ters, do you not think that Eton may have lost a great deal by not having at any rate a small minority con- stantly of masters from other schools, educated at Rugby, for instance, or Shrewsbury, or Westminstei', .amongst them ? — It is a very mixed question. 5532. I mean a minority so as to have the consci- ousness in the school itself, as it were, of what other schools have been doing? — I cannot fanc)', of course, that there is any mischief in acquiring that informa- tion, but you must answer the question with reference to all the circumstances and as to what position the minority would be in — how far they would be com- fortable. In itself, undoubtedly, it would be desirable to have a very clever man from another school. 5533. I mean, to have a majority, which would be so decided as to secure the non-interruption of the Eton tradition in the school, and leaving those quite entire, yet to have Avithin the school itself a source of salutary changes which you could not have other- wise ? — All those would be great advantages, and the only question would be, what is to be said on the other side. It is a balance. It must not be assumed that the introduction is a condition indispensable to salutary changes. 5534. {Mr. Tunsleton.) Is there any reason why an Eton Head Master should inv.ariably be from Eton, ■which would not in principle apply to a Rugby master, having been educated at Rugby ? — No, I cannot see any. PUBLIC SCHOOLS COMMISSION : — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 19ui 5335. As a matter of fact, you arc aware that some of the ablest Head Masters of Rugby were not educated at Rugby ? — Certuiuly ; I do not remember a Rugby master from Rugby. It is a matter of less imjiortance perhaps, but in that lecture of mine, I suggested several things with regard to the assistants. I do not think that at present the assistants are made the most of at Eton. Generally speaking they are men of considerable ability and scholarship. It is true they begin very young, but they are mostly men distinguished at the Universities, and I think they ought to be put on a higher footing, both as regards the pulpit in the chapel, and the library of the College, which ought to be made of much more use than it is at present ; it is almost of no use at present ; and they should be brought together more in re-union among themselves, and should be looked upon as an educational council. , 5536. {Lord Clarendon.) Perhaps you can give us some information, not only as for as your own ex- perience while you were there goes, but from your observation subsequently with respect to the general results of the education given at Eton. It professes to train the mind and to ground the boys in tliat which is the best training for the mind, classics, and to send them forth prepared to have their minds cultivated in other waj's. Do you think that Eton does that, restricting herself almost as she does to classics .as a training for the mind. Do you think that the minds leave Eton properly trained ? — " Pro- perly trained" is rather a strong expression. I do not suppose it can be said of any school that the boys leave with their minds properly trained. 5537. Trained as far as can reasonably be expected from the time devoted to that almost exclusive method of training ? — I speak, of course, with a considenable bias on my own mind, but I should say that an Eton boy when he has finished at Eton, stands altogether as ■well accomplished, and as well trained in his mind as the boys from any other school. I am quite aware that at the Universities Eton boys do not always carry ofi' scholarships, and, perhaps, do not always succeed as well in the competitions for the Civil Service and the military. 5538. I think there is no objection to mentioning here that we received some evidence a short time ago from the Dean of Christchurch with reference to the grounding of the young men who came up for niatri- culiition, and he said it was very inferior and unsatis- factory, and although, perliiips, it was not quite fair that he should pronounce an opinion on Eton com- paratively with other schools, because more Eton boys come up to him than any otheis, yet that the state of preparation in which the Eton boys came up was very bad indeed, in grammar p.irticularly, and lie also told us, although he did not specify the schools from which they came, that though the matricubition test was of a very moderate kind, and applied with great tender- ness, yet that out of 21 young men who had come up for matriculation only the week before he was here, he had been obliged to reject nine or ten of them ? — If that had been said by the head of almost an}' other house in Oxford or Cambridge, I should have attached rather more importance to it. It is notorious that the greater number of those who go to Christchurch are from the higher classes of society. Now, I am afraid I must admit that it very often happens that those of the higher classes are the least educated of the school. I do not think that would be said if it h.ad been the hoys from the foundation of Eton. 5539. (Mr. Twisleton.) They are picked boys, are they not ? — They come in by competition. 5540. {Mr. Vaughan.) That being so, would it not be rather a formidable qualification of Lord Claren- don's question if it had asked whether the training of the mind was sufficiently carried on .at Eton, as to all but those who belonged to the higher classes of society ? — That must be t.aken as a qualification of what I said. 5341. {Lord Clareridon.) There is no doubt that ivithia the last few years, there has been a great J. T. Culeridye. 14 July 1SC2. increase in the scholarship, and an improved attention ETON, to learning on the part of the scholars. You yourself, allude in your lecture to the difference there is with RJghtHon. S!i respect to the Newcastle scholarship, and that the oppidans have almost disappeared from the race. I believe that is owing to the greater attention that has been paid to their learning, and the greater atten- tion they themselves have also given to it. Is there any reason why there should not be the same done for the oppidans as for the scholars ? — None that I can see. 5542. Why should not the oppidans be brought up to the scholars ? — I shall mention presently what occurs to me on that subject, when we speak about the collegers, as to which I was prepared to recom- mend a partial suppression of fellowships. I should start in this way : — I should consider the oppidans part of the foundation of Eton. Henry VI. certainly intended the school for the oppidans as well as for the collegers. I think the whole funds of the foundation ought not to be expended on tha collegers or on tho Fellows. I should suggest that two or three, if necessary, of the fellowships should be suppressed, and a fund created, which should be apportioned exclusively as rewards, and as assistance too ; the ouo the rewards for good behaviour, and talent, and so on, and the other for .assistance to the parents of the oppidans. Mr. Twisleton remembers when we created a fund of that sort at Winchester, wo proposed that it should in part go to the increase of the foundation from 70 to 100 scholars. I would not desire to increase the scholarships at Eton at all ; I think 70 is a sufficient number ; but I would get a sum of, it might be, 2,000/. a yeiir, which I would divide into 50/, exhibitions, and I would have them exclusively given to the oppidans, and I would have them com- peted for in every class of the school, which you might easily do by marks, 5543. Not merely for the money value of them ?— No ; it should be understood that a Duke's son should be as eligible a candidate for them, and that he should be as much stimulated to stand for them as the poorest man's son in the school. 5544. {Lord Li/ttclton.) With regard to the nearly exclusive cultivation of classics, which may still bo said to prevail at Eton, the only important innovation on that system, which has yet been attempted, is with regard to mathematics ; mathematics have been certainly intended to be an integral, .and a perceptible part of the studies of tlie school ? — Yes. 5345. Looking to the amount of time given as a necessary part of the work to mathematics, does your observation of hate years enable you to say whether that has produced a perceptible effect on tho minds of boys leaving Eton ? — I am not competent to answer that question. 5546. With regard to the other point you spoke of, the failure of the oppidans, we have had great difficulty in ascertaining why it is, and we have had great difference of opinion about it. Do you conceive that the establishment of some such rewards, and also honorary distinctions for the oppidans exclusively, would do much towards bringing up the oppidans ? — It would involve more examinations of them. The reason why the collegers are better trained is not because they are on the surface subjected to any difference of discipline from the rest. They go into school, .and everything goes on with them cx.actly as with the rest ; but in order to keep their places, and to keep what they have, they are obliged to go on with examinations from time to time. My idea would be this, having collections now, you should have your collections made of rather more importance, and more to depend on them, and I think they should not be conducted in the higher part of the school by the Head and Lower masters. 5547. Would you add to the number of exami- nations at Eton ? — No s I think there are quite enough examinations at present. 5548. You would alter the character of them ? — I think so. Bb 2 1961 PUBLIC SCHOOLS COMMLSSIOX .-—MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 14 July isn'i. ETON. 5549. (Mr. Twisleton.) Is it not the fact that the boys admitted into collefie by competition must, on liujhl Hon. Sir jj^^ avcnK'e be more intelligent than the oppidans i J. T. Culeridje. _qj. ^^^° ^ ^j^^y „^^gt_ 5550. And they also come with more knowledge in .idditiou to intelligence ; they come on an average with more knowledge of classics ?— Yes ; but I doubt very mucli liow that is. They go there very young, 11 and 12, and up to that time I should think the oppidans are as well taught, the difference at all c^•ents must be immaterial in regard of the future course. 5551. {Lord Li/ttellon.) Would you raise the ad- mission examination for the oppidans ; do you tliink it is high enougli at present ? — I did not know that there was anything more than an examination to see what part of the school you would put a 1)oy into. If a boy came to Eton almost in the lowest stage of education lie is not rejected as he is at Cliristchurch ; it is merely that you put him down lower. I cannot pretend to say, but I conclude they do that with perfect fairness. 5552. {Mr. Twisleton.) You think the average of oppidans between 11 and 12 have as much knowledge (IS those admitted into college by competition be- tween 11 rind 12? — Indeed, I think so. Numbers of them are oppidans themselves. 5553. The competition is open to the whole country ? — Yes. 5554. Are you aware that there is an objection to oppidans standing for admission into the college ? — I did not know that it had gone to any considerable extent. If a boy does not like to go, of course he does not do his best. 5555. {Sir S. Northcote.) With reference to the effect a matriculation examination at Eton might have on proprietary schools of the kingdom, do you think it would be a good thing to have such an examination, and that the boys not properly prepared in grammar should be rejected ? — Yes ; I think so. 5556. Have you reason to think that in a great many proprietary schools grammar is very unsatis- factorily taught ? — I fear that it is. Before we part from this subject, I should like to say that both grammar and composition, as specific subjects of study, are not sufficiently nor wisely attended to in the schools. I do not think there is any such thing as direct attention paid to these at Eton ; I do not know as to other schools ; as to the actual teaching of composition, it is done incidentally only. 5557. {Lord Clarendon.) Would it be to that you would attribute the falling off in scholarship at Eton which seems to be admitted ? — I cannot say, for we had it not in our day. But it was wonderful the interest that was taken by the boys in the com- positions of other boys. The exercises used to be thrown in the corner just outside an assistant master's desk, and while they lay there it was always sur- rounded by a cluster of the boys, saying, " I should " like to see what Milman (or any other distinguished " boy) has done this week." 5558. {Lord I^yttelton.) The whole weight of dis- tinction was thrown on composition then ; there was no other distinction to be got ? — No. 5559. {Mr. Thompson.) Do you think that Latin prose composition was sufficiently attended to ? — In my time we were not so often sent up for prose com- position. It was always, however, the higher honour. 5560. {Lord Clarendon.) Will you allow me to .ask you wh.at you would consider to be the present relations of the Provost and Fellows to the school, whether you think them beneficial, or whether any change could be introduced ? — Practically the Fellows have little or nothing to do with the school. The Provost has a great deal, and I do not see any objec- tion to the influence that the Provost exercises over the school at jirescnt. 5561. He has a positive veto over the Head Master ? — Yes, in some particulars. 5562. We have understood that upon all matters which affected the higher interests of the school, the Provost would call the Fellows into council ? — Very likely. I should think he would ; but then you must consider that the Provost has almost uniformly been the Head Master. 5563. That may or may not be useful. Supposing that the Head Master has not been a very active man, that he is a great conservative or anti-reformer in the school, and that he then becomes Provost, do you think he is likely to view with a favourable eye the recommendation of any of those reforms .' — Perhapsi not. That is one side of the question ; but on the other hand, it is very desirable that the Head Master himself should not be entirely at liberty to do what he pleased. 5564. In other schools we have been to — Harrow and Rugby — although there is a nominal check, or sort of control over the Head Masters, yet they are virtually supreme, and they think that the well-being of the school is very much attributable to that ? — That is not unnatural. 5565. But as far as your observation and experi- ence would go, you would prefer that there should be two heads engaged in the administration of the school ? — Yes, indeed I should. But this is mixed up altogether with the question of the preservation of the office of Provost and of the College. 5566. Perhaps you will have the goodness to give us your opinion on that and on the preservation of the existing state of things ? — My opinion is, that it would be almost a monstrous thing, I'oot and branch to destroy an institution of which you have all the funds prepared, and where you have the Founder's clear intention on the subject, and which, even new, I think, exercises some useful influence. I cannot think it does so to theextent it might and ought. It would be absurd to say, in the face of what one sees going on .around us, that you might not have such a school without such a foundation. The only question is — hav- ing such a foundation, whether you ought to take it away. I think you ought not to take it away if you can, by modification, make it a great deal more useful than it is at present to the school, which, I consider, of course, of much more importance than the college itself ; and I think that might be done with a re- duction of the numbers, and by casting duties on the remaining members of the body — and I care not whether at present they are quite adequate to the performance of these duties or not, because I think if j'ou impose the duty, you will soon have the proper men for the discharge of it, — I think that by so doing you will save the Founder's institution and most materially benefit the school. 5567. May I ask to what number you would re- duce them, and what duties you would impose ? — I think the numbers should not be reduced to less than, the Provost and four Fellows, including the Vice- Provost ; certainly not less than that. I think if the whole of the funds were not wanted, I should prefer keeping another Fellow, having four Fellows, the Vice-Provost and the Provost ; but, if the funds were wanted, I should reduce it to the Provost and four Fellows. The duties I would cast upon them would be these : In the first place I would diminisht he Provost's residence, which is very hard upon him at present. He is obliged to reside 10 mouths in th*- year ; I think, that is more than it ought to be. 5568. {Lord Lyttelton.) Is that actually enforced ? — To a very great extent it is. It is like the Deans with their eight months ; to a great extent it is en- forced. I would have the Provost to reside the nine school months of the year, three months being the time of the holidays. Supposing there were foui- Fellows only remaining, they must have their 13 weeks each. The longer the Fellows remained in residence the more useful they might become to the school, and they would retain more relations with it. There would then always be, during the school-time, the Provost and one Fellow at least resident ; the others might i-eside, if they pleased. Besides their having the general superintendence, and being persons whom the Head Master might consult when ho likes PUBLIC SCHOOLS COIDHSSIOX : — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 197 about chnnges, and besides what they at present do about the discipline of the collegers, I should like to make them the efficient examiners for tho school. I think it is au evil that the masters only should examine. I would rather that the Provost and Vice-Provost, or the Provost and one of the Fellows, should conduct the half-yearly examinations for the higher parts of the school ; and I should have no objection then to tho Head and Lower masters, if they pleased, conducting the examinations in the lou-er part of the school, because that would give the Head Master a better opportunity of seeing what ]-eally was going on in the lower part of the school lliiHi he has at present, and I would have every boy individually examined throughout the school every half-year. oo69. {Lord Clarendon.') Throughout the whole school ? — Yes. Well, then, I should think if you su])pressed three fellowships you would get about 2.500/. a-year. I would set aside 100/. a-year for per- fecting the College library. They have no fund, and, I believe at present they have done little to complete their library for the last 50 or 60 years. The truth is, it is the foundation of a very good library ; it is a very nice room, but a useless collection to a great extent. I would devote 100/. a-year to that, and I would have a salary for a sub-librarian, a person who should be there constantly. At present it stands on this footing : Suppose I want to go to the library to consult a book, one of the Fellows is librarian ; if he is not there, there is nobody there ; if he is, he must stay there the whole time you are looking at the book. Even the assistant masters, I believe, have not, — they had not, certainly,— the free run of the library. It is essential, therefore, to have the salary of a sub- librarian, who should attend certain hours every day, and then, I think, the residue should be devoted to the foundation of exhibitions. I said 50/., but I would make them something more than honorary, because there are such a large number of parents to whom they would be most valuable assistance in getting their boys to Eton. I would devote it to the founda- tion of a considerable number of these exhibitions, which should be obtainable by oppidans only, and I would give every boy who got an exhibition a honorary reward in books — something to show for it, besides the mere money. 5570. {Lord Lyttelton.) How much would the money be ? — I think not less than 50/. 5571. (Lord Clarendon.) To be held for three years ? — No ; for the whole time while he was at school. I would have the boys examined in all parts of the school. If I sent up a little boy who was only fit to go into the 3rd form, yet it being a matter merely of marks, he might compete against a boy in the 6th form, because, if he got more marks, he would win it, and it should be continued to him every year as long as he remained at Eton, subject only to the Head Master, or Lower Master saying that the boy has misconducted himself. 5572. {I^ord Lyttelton.) About how many of these exhibitions would j'ou have ? — I should like as many as 40. We said, at Winchester, that we would have 20. I believe they have not come into effect yet, because the funds have not arisen. The College at Winchester were very liberal and handsome about it. They began at once, I think, with two at their own expense, and, I believe they have worked uncommonly well. They are competed for with much zeal. The boys would have no objection to standing for them as it is said they have to going into college. 5573. You would have no restriction as to rank ? — Not the least. I would not only not have it in point of form, but not in spirit. It should be under- stood that wealth or rank should not, in the slightest degree, be an impediment. I would have this examina- tion conducted as the Newcastle examinations now are by select examiners. 5574. {Lord Clarendon.) You would have different examinations for different parts of the school ? — Cer- tainly. At present the examinations for admission to the college are carried on in that way. Boys of II are examined on a certain scale, and boys of 12 on another. 5575. {Lord Lyttelton.) You mean examiners from without ? — Yes. Just as the Newcastle is now. 5576. {Mr. Vaughan.) How would you bring to bear on that, the principle that the boys should be examined in the work they have done if you have examiners taken from without ? — I would not do it with these any more than with the Newcastle scholar- ship. Strangers would constantly come up and com- pete for them. 5577. Is your mind clear as to the age at which it is safe to put the strong strain of competition on a boy's mind ? — However young the boy is there can be no great exhaustion of his mind if there be no long preparation for the competition for the exhibition. 5578. You have not heard that it ever does any harm to the boys who go into college ? — I have not. 5579. (Sir S. Northcote.) Do you contemplate that a boy who had got one of those exhibitions in the 4th form, would keep it all the while he was in school, or compete for it again ? — I would say he should hold it c/ttam diu se bene gesserit, that he should be understood to hold it unless the Head Master interposed, or the Lower blaster in the case of a boy in the lower school. 5580. {Mr. Thompson.) Would not a great many exhibitions, in that case, be held by idle and unworthy boys ? — Idleness would be among the mala proliihita. 5581. I mean something between that and merit ? — The Head Master would say to a boy, " If you " do not do better, you may depend upon it I shall " take it away." 5582. {Sir S. Northeote.') Do you not think if t\\cy had to compete for it afresh when they got into certain parts of the school it would be better ? — It might. I would not make the competition too frequent. Lord Clarendon suggested three years ; it might be that. 5583. There would be this objection, if they were taken from boys from different parts of the school, the number to be competed for each year would bo very irregular ? — I do not think that would make any difference. Suppose there were no candidates in the fourth form it would make very little difference. 5584. (Lord I^yttelton.) There would always be candidates in the fourth form ? — Yes. 5585. (Sir S. Northcote.) Suppose we say for argument's sake, there is a fund of 2,000/. a year to be appropriated to these exhibitions, do you con- template having 50 exhibitions of 40/. each ? — I should rather have 40 of 50/. each. 5586. Those 40 exhibitions would be thrown open, and the 40 boys who got them in different parts of the school would hold them as long as they remained in the school, subject to being deprived of them for any gross idleness or other misconduct ?^Yes. 5587. Then one year perhaps there would be 20 of those boys leaving, and vacancies occurring, and another year there might only be 10 ? — I do not see how you can avoid that. 5588. Would it not be better, in order to get a uniformity of prizes, to make them for a certain num- ber of years, leaving it open to the boys who held them, if they remained in the school, to compete again ? — You suppose them all to compete again at the end of every three years ; as it is, you must re- member this, that you would not get your fund all at once. You would not start with 40 exhibitions. A Fellow might die, and then the fund would begin in that way. 5589. (Lord Lyttelton.) Your object would be to raise the oppidans to the level of the collegers ? — I do not suppose the mere examinations would have that effect. I rather look upon it as a stimulus of a boy's after course at Eton. 5590. How is it a stimulus of his after course ? — He is like a Newcastle scholar. I suppose a New- castle scholar as long as he remains at Eton is under the stimulus of what he holds. Bb 3 ETON. Bhlht Hon. Sir J.'T. Colli Mje. U July ISGi. 198 PUBLIC SCHOOLS OOMMISSION : — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. ETON. 14 July 1862. 5591. What stimulus would there be on a. boy who has got his exhibition ? — It is not confined to boys IHnhtHon. Sir coming iij) from other schools, but a boy in the fifth J. 'T. Cohridije. form who did not stand last year may stand this year. 5,592. That is the gener.al object of it, to hold out sometliing like equal inducements to the oppidans as to tlie collegers ? — Yes. 5593. {3Ir. Thompson.) That, you do not think, ■would have any effect in widening the distance be- tween the oppidans and collegers that exists at pre- sent ? — I do not see why it should ; I rather think it might have the opposite eifect. 5594. Would it not perhaps have a tendency rather to diminish the competition for college ? — When you consider that you have 60 or 70 boys standing for college, it would very easily bear a deduction. I think at Winchester they have very often from 90 to 100 boys standing altogether at an election. I should not do it as they do at Winchester, where they are elected by tlie College, and at the same time tlie college elec- tions go on. I would let it be vents them giving the livings to deserving masters, .and diminishes their power of doing good iu that wiiy ? — They have a great number of livings. 5606. Not very many good ones, I think ? — No. 5607. If the Fellows were not allowed to hold livings themselves, iu all probability they would give their patronage conscientiously to the retiring masters ? — If one may judge from the practice of cathedrals, I should think there is no patronage so badly bestowed as cathedral patronage. What I would rather suggest would be this, and I believe tlie circumstances will enable it to be done : draw a line, and make Eton the centre, and let the Fellows always hold the livings within a certain line of distance, so as always to be easily within reach, and to be called on at any time. 5608. {Lord I^yttelton.) Your opinion as a lawyer would be of great value to us on a question on which it is difficult to arrive at any conclusion, which is the binding force of these Eton statutes. You are aware that every possible precaution is taken in those st.a-r tutes to enforce their everlasting obligation, find particularly the plea of desuetude is expressly barred. Looking at their present state of non-observation, it shows that it is a matter of impossibility to enforce tlie perpetual exact observance of any statutes. If the Provost and Fellows merely alleged that they are to a great extent become impracticable, that as far as they are practicable they do observe them, and that for the rest they simply defer to the necessity of the case, that we could understand ; but shortly after these statutes weie imposed, certain proceed- ings took place, which are recorded in a supplement to the statutes, and which are called " Declarationes, " correctiones, et reformationes " of the statutes; and the third of those declarations has a certain clause, which we find that the Provost and Fellows of Eton have relied upon as giving them a general power of dispensing with those statutes, over and above what may arise from the necessity of the case ? — I was not aware of that. 5609. Then you could hardly give an opinion upon it ? — I should venture to suggest what the Oxford Commission did. In every case we made an ordi- nance, giving the body the power of altering their own statutes under certain terms. We found it im- possible to go through all the statutes of the Colleges, making new ordinances in every case. Then we con- fined ourselves to our own ordinance on the greater matters and gave them the power, with certain re- straints upon them, of repealing and .altering their statutes. Now, the non-observance of the Eton statutes, coupled with the oaths that are taken, is, I m.ay almost s.ay, a shocking thing, .and the practice is, that when the function.ary comes to take the oath, he says " I cannot keep this," or " I beg to pass over that," as if he got rid of the responsibility by tiiat. PUBLIC SCHOOLS COMMISSION :— MINUTES OP EVIDENCE. 199 It is n sbocking thinj; that this should remain. As 10 the payment to the Head and Lower masters, iioihiug could be more cogent than the language of the statutes against that. 0610. As far as you are aware there is no special power of dispensing with any of these statutes ? — I should think not. What the holding of the living stands upon is a dispensation by Queen Elizabeth. 0611. With regard to that, you are probably awiire that the case was distinctly raised, that the Visitor heard the case judicially, and that he gave a formally recorded judgment, in which he recited the opinions of Sir William Grant and Sir William Scott, and dis- tinctly held the power to hold livings ? — Yes. I was present at the argument ; those two great lawyers sat as Assessors to Bishop Pretyman. o6I2» That is quite enough? — No doubt; but then the oaths remain. 5613. The point was simply that you are not .aware of any dispensing power which the Provost and Fellows have ? — I cannot conceive any at all. 5614. {Mr. Thompson.) We have had a great deal of evidence on the subject of the Eton property ; it is let as a great deal of chapter property is, on fine. Has it ever occurred to you that there was any possi- bility of extricating the property without great sacrifice? — I should think so. I think that all Colleges should be empowered to borrow money for this purpose. Without this it is so hard for the individual members, as in great measure to prevent its being done. 5615. Is that good husbandry, borrowing money in order to get rid of fines ? — So far .as it is the only mode by which j'ou can do it, and not sacri- fice the interests of the existing members, who cannot be expected to sacrifice themselves. 5616. I think it is not likely in the case of Deans and Chapters ? — It is not likely at all. In point of fact the Provost and Fellows did do it, I believe, without authority, and they have paid off the debt two years ago. They had a debt upon them, which I understand they have now completely cleared off", and they have very much improved their property by it. 5617. {Lord Clarendon.) There is one question to which you yourself alluded, and that is the use of the chapel. I am sure you will attach the same import- ance that we do to the teaching in the chapel. Would you consider that to be in an unsatisfactory state now ? Do you not think it would be useful if the Head Master and assistant masters should occasionally have the opportunity of addressing themselves to the boys ? —I think so. At present there is but one sermon on the Sunday, and I cannot see if the sermons were of the sort they might be why they might not most use- fully have two sermons, and it would be a vast im- provement in every way, both to the boys and I think to the assistants, if they took their turns. 5618. Kot exactly their turns, it is those who might be selected, those who had the gift of preaching or who wished to preach ? — The number is now so largo that they might almost have something like the system of select preachers at the universities, and bring fresh men in from time to time. I cannot see Avhy in framing this list the Provost and Fellows should limit themselves even to the assistants. 5619. Do you think the system of making boys go to chapel on holidays and half holidays is one which tends to a reverential feeling, or is it looked upon as a roll call or an intrusion on the half holiday ? — I should rather be for continuing that. It is difficult to say ; but when I have happened to be there tho behaviour of the boys seemed to he good. I dare say they do not, and 3'ou could hardly expect them to, look upon it as the same thing as on the Sunday. 5620. {Mr. Vaughan.) Speaking of the duties of the Provost, was it your idea that the provostship should be an office in itself of the nature of a reward and retirement, a position of ease with occasional duties belonging to it, or that it should be in fact au occupation to the person who held it ? — Not a vorj laborious occupation. You will always get a persou rather advanced in life. I would not however elect a m.an who was quite effi?te. 5621. Do you think it would be of advantage to the school that there should be that sort of constant occupation about the school on the part of the Pro- vost which would fill his time ? — I would not have it so constant as at all to interfere with the Head Master. It need not be that. 5622. 1 was asking the question with reference to the opinion you expressed that there should not be too much reference to the management of the property in the Provost or in his election ? — No. I do not think a man should be elected because he would make a good bursar. I do not think he should have very little to do with tho school. It would be more ia the way of general superintendence and as a person to be consulted, and I think he ought to make himself fully acquainted with all the property, as well aa the state of the livings. Those who hold the .id- vowsons of the livings ought to know a little about their parishes. ETON. likjht Hon. Sir J. T. ColeilJge. 14 July 1SG2. The witness withdrew. LORD LYTTELTON lh the Chatk. The Rev. Chakles Kegan Pacl, B.A., examined. 5623. {Lord Lyttelton.) I believe, Mr. Paul, you have now left Eton ? — Yes. 5624. You were Conduct and assistant master in college ? — Yes. 5625. For how long ? — I was Conduct for rather over eight years, and assistant master in college for just seven years. 5626. Being Conduct also ? — Yes, during the whole of that time. 5627. I believe you were an oppidan ? — Yes, in the present Provost's house. 5628. For how many years ? — For five years. 5629. And you were at Oxford ?...-Yes. 5630. {Sir S. Northcote.) Which living do you now hold ? — Sturminster Marshall. 5631. That has been divided from the others which used to be held with it ? — Yes. 5632. Are those four now each held separately ?— Yes. 5633. When the value of that living is set down at 303/., what is it taken from ? — Nearly the whole of the income of the living is derived from farm. 5634. Do you suppose that those sums which are Bev.C.K.Paul. set down represent the actual value of the livings ?— .^— .— I only took them from the Clergy List as I have speci- fied in my answers ; I had no other means of knowing. I believe the living I at present hold is worth about 315/. instead of 303/. 5635. {Mr. Vaughan.) What is the policy of the regulation under which a conduct is excluded from any of the 12 best benefices, even if a Fellow does not want them ? — I must explain that a little, because the living I now hold, Sturminster Marshall, is ono of the 12, but the value has been materially reduced, so that the exception in that case proves the rule. 5636. Supposing the rule to exist, what is the policy of excluding the conduct from a living which no Fellow will take ? — I am quite at a loss to answer that question. 5637. Does it seem to you reasonable ? — ^No, far from reasonable. I think that the rule that a Con- duct should not have a living till after he has served a certain number of years, is a very reasonable one, but certainly the limitation on the value is not reason- able. Bb 4 200 PUBLIC SCHOOLS COMJIISSION : — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE.' LTON. 5638. You tliiiik it should fairly fall to the choice of the Conduct before hecoming a matter of mere Rev. C.K.Paul patronage to the Fellows ?— Certainly. 5039. Do you know whether there is any plea of 14 July 18C2. oi-igiiiality for the present system ? — No ; I believe not. 5640. It is simply to preserve it as patronage ? — Simply to preserve it as private patronage. 5641. {Mr. Thompson.) In No. II., Question 10, of your written answers, you say, " The amount of " emolument received by the assistant master in " college is entirely derived from stipends paid him " by the college ; 230/. per annum, rooms, coals, and " light, as assistant master in college ; 120/. as Cou- " duct or Chaplain," do you think that was a fair remuneration for the trouble that was laid upon you? — Not at all. Several times in conversation with the then Provost, aud the present Provost and Fellows, they have privately each admitted that the remune- ration seemed insufficient, though, as a body, they were able to do no more. During the time of my tenure of office and since I have always set the remu- Deration at 500/. 5642. {Lord Lyttelton.) Being now only 350/. ?— Yes. 5643. ( Mr. Thompson.') Besides apartments ? — Yes ; in fact apartments are an essential part of the remuneration, because they open into the boys' rooms, so that the master in college lives with the boys. 5644. Do you not think it desirable that the pei'fon holding that office should be a young man under 40 ? ■;— I think so, certainly, It might have been better had I been a year or two older at the time I took it. I think that at iirst I wanted experience — during the first two of the seven years. I think it is fair to pay that. 5645. You had not been a colleger yourself ? — No. 5646. Did you find that operated to your disad- vantage in dealing with the collegers ? — Not as far ps the boys were concerned. 5647. {Lord Lyttelton.) In the residence for the jnaster in college, full provision is made for a married man, I believe ? — The house is very inconvenient for a married man, but atill it will do. Mr. Marriott mar- ried while in that post, and I married while in that post. 5648. {3Ir. Vaughan.) Are you aware of the na- ture aud degree of the duties of a tutor in a boarding- liouse as keeper of a boarding .house towards the boys ? — Yes, quite so. 5649. Comparing with that your dutj' as Conduct in the college, should you say that it is more or less active than that of the master in the boarding-house, if you put the teaching out of the question ? — Yes, of course, I put that entirely out of the question. Cer- tainly there is a great deal more to do for the care of 70 boys than for the care of 35. 5650. In the first place there are double the number of boys ? — Yes. 5651. In addition to that, putting that out of si^ht, is the nature of the supervision of the boys on the part of master or tutor in a boarding-house greater or less than that of a master in college ? — In each case that must very much depend on the man who has charge of the boarding-house and on the master in college, but theoretically they are much the same, 5652. Were you generally responsible to the authorities for the good order and discipline that prevailed in the college ? — Yes, distinctly so. 5653. And were you responsible to the parents as •well as to the authorities in the college for the moral conduct of the boys ? — Yes. 5654. Have any communications passed between you and the parents ? — Yes ; I suppose more comr municatious with regard to moral conduct passed with the master in college than with the tutors of the boys. I was in constant communication with the parents of many of the boys on the foundation. Some few pre- ferred to communicate directly with the tutors but the great majority communicated with rae. 5655. So that you consider that practically a great deal of the responsibility, as to the morals of the boys who were in college, fell upon you ? — Practically, it did fall upon me. Practically, I consider that the master in college has the charge of the morals of the boys. 5656. {Mr. Thompson.) Of course you had no care or anxiety on the subject of the boys' meals ? — No, only for tea. 5657. That, therefore, would be some subtraction from the labour ? — Yes, it would be, 5658. You are not responsible to the parents of the boys quite in the same sense, I suppose ? — No, only for their private bills. AH their private bills passed through my hands — all the orders on the tradespeople. 5659. And the care of their health in some degree? .^Yes. , 5660. How many hours a day were you occupied with the boys ? — Generally from about a quarter past 9 till 11, more or less, and I was liable to be called upon at any time during the day. I dined in the hall with them three times a week, and was occupied or lialale to be occupied the whole of the evening. 5661. What trouble did they give you in the even^ ing ? — Every boy who leaves any house to go to any other, or who leaves college to go to his tutor, has a ticket to get to check the time at which he passes out. All those tickets I signed, so that boys were in and out my study every five minutes every evening till prayers. I generally made a practice of spending a considerable part of the evening in the boys' rooms, 5662. You were not allowed to act as private tutor? -^No. 5663. Either to boys in college or out of college ? .r^No. 5664. {L^ord Lyttelton.) Do I understand that, in your position, j-ou neither had, nor could have, any- thing to do with tuition ? — No, nor do I think it desirable, except in religious tuition. I think that ought in some greater degree to fall under the master in charge. 5665. Cannot the master in charge take private pupils from the oppidans "i^ — Yes. 5666. {3Ir. Thompson.) He could not in your time ? — No ; when I first went into college, before the arrangement was made, by which I became, in fact, a collegers' dame, I was allowed to take three pupils, had I cared to do so, but after that time the privilege was taken away, because it was considered, and truly considered, that I could not possibly per- form the duties of Conduct and assistant master in college, and private tutor. Now, Mr. Shuldliam is not Conduct, and is allowed to take private pupils. 5667. Did the duties of Conduct form any con- siderable proportion of your whole duties ?— Yes, because the three Conducts are the curates of the parish ; the parish consists of nearly 4,000 people. 5668. Do I understand that you wrote regular reports home, at the end of every half? — Only in cases where I was requested to do so. 5669. Did their private tutors write these reports home ? — -Yes, they did in all cases ; I only where I was requested. 5670. Do the private tutors then go into the question of the general conduct of the boys ? — They do, and a. great many of them after consulting with me. 5671. In fact, it is taken on your authority very much ? — Yes, 5672. Do you think the effect of it is to discharge the mind of the private tutor to any extent from the feeling that he has the moral charge of the collegers as well as the oppidans ? — When I first went into college, there was considerable difficulty felt on the part of the private tutors as to what the position of the master in college would be, and at first I met with some little difficulties in some quarters, and with the greatest possible co-operation and assistance on the part of others. By the time I had left, I think I may say that all the tutors looked to me for reports of their boys ; bijt the way in which the master in PUBLIC SCHOOLS COMMISSION :— MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 201 college and the tutors work together, must very much depend on the tutor niid the master. 5673. You succeeded the present Bishop of Wel- lington I think ? — No ; next to Bishop Abraham came Mr. Marriott, and then Mr. Hardisty. 5674. Did you take up the system as you found it, or did you make any alteration in it ? — I immediately suggested what was afterwards carried out : the doing away with the dames, and putting the boys under the master in college. 5675. What did the dames do ? — Till January 1st, 1858, every colleger had a dame, to whom his linen was sent to send it to a laundress, and to whose house he went in sickness ; and this arrangement, in cases of sickness, was so very bad that I represented that as six)n as possible, and said I was ready to take the duties upon myself, and that was carried out veiy shortlv. 5676. By the College ?— By the College. 5677. Had you a matron ? — There is a matron. 5678. As to the payment, what does Mr. Shuldham have, does he receive 250/. ? — No ; 230/. 5679. For the whole of this important charge of 70 boys ? — Yes. 5680. And except the tuition he has the same charge as a master of a boarding-house, who makes a great deal more than that ? — Quite the same charge, except the tuition ; of course that is a very large deduction. 5681. Do you think you can infer anything from tliat, as to the question whether the ordinary tutors in fact make larger profits than is reasonable ? — I do not think that the master in college's payment at all bears upon that. 5682. Will you explain that ? — Because it is simply that the College pay him ; he is not paid at all out of the profits made on the boys. The College pay him a fixed sum. 5683. But they get the work done for that sum ? — Yes. 5684. (^Mr. Vaughan.) Do you think that a duty should be differently rewarded or compensated to a person who performs it, because the money comes in the one case from the College, and, in the other case, out of the parent's pocket ? — No ; I think that Mr. Shuldham and myself should have had far larger stipends than we had ; but, in ni}- own case, the duties were partly undertaken because they were very pleasant ones. 5685. (Lord Li/ttelton.) Do you think that for 500/. a year it might be done ? — I think you could always get a man for 500/. a year. 5686. Is not the difference very great between that and what the private tutor makes ? — Very great. 5687. Do you suppose generally the College would look out for men of the same ability and attainment to be masters in college which are needed for assistant masters ? — Of course they would not require the same amount of scholarship. They would look for a man of general cultivation and abilities, and, of course, of charncfer, to impi'ess the boys. Of course the boys would not look up to a man who was notoriously a fool. 5688. {S\r S. Northcote.) The position of the master in college is that of an assistant, is it not, to the Head iVJaster ; the Head Master is the person in charge of the boys in college ? — I believe that the lower master is really the person who would, by the statutes, be responsible. 5689. Do either the Head Master or the lower master take any part themselves in superintending them ? — The lower master none. The Head Master is almost always present at prayers. Whenever he is he reads prayers. Practically, when I first became assistant in college, Dr. Goodford was in there very frequently. He walked round two or three times a week. 5690. So that the master in charge would always have the Head Master to appeal to in a case of diffi- culty, in the way that the master of a boarding-house would not have ? — Certainly. 1. 5691. (3/r. Thompson.) Did you, as a fiict, give any instruction of any kind to the boys bearing on their studies in the school? — Yes; occasionally iu eases where I had reason to know, or felt quite cer- tain, that it would not be objected toby the tutors, I have done so. 5692. {Lord Lyttelton.) You were not bound to do it ?— No. 5693. {Mr. Thompson.) Did you give any advice about their extra school studies ?— Yes, frequently. 5694. Their private reading, and so on ? — Yes. 5695. That, you would think, would fall under your duty ? — I do not think it is any matter of obli- gation. 5696. It would bo of great importance that a man should be elected who would be able to do that ? Certainly. 5697. Did you take any part in the debating society ': — The deluitiug society in college was esta- blished with my strong approval, and tjU it was fairly set going, I took part iu it. 5698. {Lord Lyttelton.) They have one of their own ? — Yes. 5699. {Mr. Thompson.) I need hardly ask you whether you do not think it is of the Last importance that a person who holds the office should be a person of general literary culture and intelligeuce ?-^Cer- tainly he should. 5700. You think that 500/. a year would be suffi- cient ? — Yes, with rooms and allowances, light, and so on. 5701. (.S')> .S. Northcote.) Had you a right to com- mons in the hall ? — Only when I was obliged to dine in the hall, which was a great nuisance. 5702. {Lord Lyttelton.) That was three times a week, was it not ? — Yes. 5703. {Mr. Thompson.) If you had been unmarried it would have been rather a privilege ? — Yes. 5704. {Mr. I'aiiffhaa.) With reference to the ar- rangements for the sick, do you think the rooms are sufficiently large or numerous in college ? — I do not. 5705. They are not very much larger than the studies, I think ? — No ; they are certainly not large enough. There is not proper accommodation for the sick in college. 5706. Are there any rooms in college which could be more fitly applied to the purpose, or would it be necessary to build ? — I think it would be necessary to build. 5707. Is that a sort of step you would think it worth while to take ? — I think the present accommo- dation certainly very inadequate. 5708. It struck me upon visiting the place that the rooms seemed close ? — Yes, they are ; they arc quite unfit for their present purpose. I should say, in answer to part of your question just now with regard to the instruction and teaching of the boys, that for the last four or five years several of the tutors have put the preparation of their boys for con- firmation entirely in my Imnds, the lay tutors par- ticularly, Mr. Johnson, Mr, Browning, Mr. Walford, and so on. 5709. {I^ord Lyttelton.) With regard to religious instruction, would you propose a transfer of that from their ordinary private tutors to their master in col- lege ? — I think the direct religious instruction should he transferred, 5710. {Sir S. Norttieote.) As to question 13, do you think, from anything you have seen, that the competitive examination is injurious to the little hoys ?— T-There are some boys who have got into college, and who have been crammed up to a certain point, and have fallen away directly afterwards. 5711. ■\Vlien I asked the question I meant whether the severity of the studies had a bad effect on little boys 10 or 11 years old ? — I think not at all. I only know one case which would at all seem to fiill under that. It was in the case of a pupil who had really been crammed more fully than he could possibly hold, and I think he has suffered both in his mind and physique. Cc ETON. Rev. C.K.Paul. 14 July 1 862. 202 PUBLIC SCHOOLS COinilSSION :— MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 1 4 July 1 862- ETON. 5712. {Mr. Vaughan.) Without saying whctlier the competitive cxaminatiou is the cause or not, do Hev.CK.Paul. y^^, fiji„k tliat the hoys who come in hetween tlie Kges of 8 aud ]6 are of a lower physique than the oppidans ? — Certainly not. _ 57i3. {Lord Lijitelton.) How far do you thiuic there was any degree of alienation and want of social intercourse between tlie collegers and the oppidans m your time ?— It certainly did exist. 5714. Gail you specify in what particulars .''—It was more anions; the younger boys than the elders. As boys got up in the school thay associated together very much. lu the school debating society collegers arc elected aud mix, and oppidans dine with the sixth foi-m in hall, and so on. 5715. With regard to the debating society do you conceive that considering the diflerence of numbers, there is a fair proportion of collegers elected into that society ?_Ferhaps not ; but I ithink that the ■ rivalry in the collegers' and oppidans' football niatch^ has more to do with their exclusion than the fact of their being " tugs." 5716. We were told by one witness that they elected into the debating society those collegers who they thouEcht were likely to contribute to the winning by that society of certain games ':'— That may also be. 5717. But still a clever colleger of good ch.iractcr would be sure to be elected ? — Certainly. 5718. Would the oppidans have any objection to the collegers wearing the same dress as themselves ? — No ; I am sure they would not. 5719. Do you often see them walking together ? — No ; but then again you do not see boys of different tutors' houses going together very much. 5720. Do they give each other leaving books ? — Yes. 5721. As to the question of the gown, you have o-iven us your opinion. Would you enforce the rejection of the gown contrary to the feeling of the collegers ? — Yes ; because I think it is a mere pre- judice on the part of the boys. I think it would die off very soon. 5722. Is it your object to assimilate the collegers and oppidans in every respect as far as possible ? — I think so, because, speaking generally, the class from which collegers and oppidans are drawn is precisely the same. 5723. Barring the highest rank, you mean ? — Not entirely barring the highest rank, because while I was master in college there were various sons of younger sons of peers. 5724. Do you conceive that the college gets the cleverest and ablest boys, apart from any question of rank ? — Apai't from any question of rank, but not apart from any question of fortune. 5725. There is an actual limitation as to landed property. Except as far as that, do you think a rich man would send his son to compete for the ■ college ? — Some rich men do, but they ought not to. As a fact there are men ftiking advantage of tlie col- lege education at this moment whose fortunes ought to have placed their boys among the oppidans. 5726. {Sir S. Northcote.) Does it ever hap- pen that oppidans stand for the scholarships? — Yes. 5727. When I say stand, I know they do, but do they really exert themselves. We are told that they do not exert themselves, that they do not wish to get them ? — Yes. Some of the most promising scholars at college have been oppidans, and one or two coming into college with great prejudice against it, I believe have found it much happier. 5728. {Lord Lyttelton.) We have been told that the oppidans have a great dislike to the college? — Yes, they have. 5729. Do you think, in general, an oppidan does not like standing for college ? — ^He does not like it. 5730. {Sir S. Northcote.) Looking at the re- turn of the ages of boys at the school, it appears that the second captain of the school now has got up into the sixth form iu about two years, or in a very short time after his admission. Do you know any- thing of the case ; did he enter very late in College ? A^ the lime of his examination and election he wanted but a few weeks of 16, and he was not ad- mitted immediately, so that he camo to the school .when he was nearly 17. 5731. Is it often the case that boys are admitted so late as 16 ? — No ; there is a strong feeling against it, and for very good reasons, but this boy's merits were so very conspicuous -that he could not be kept out. 5732. Ho gained the scholarship .at 16, .ind was then very rapidly put up ; do you know into what part of the school he was put when he came in ?— He was jilaced nominally in. the remove, but really in the fifth form, and was allowed to take a double re- move directly. 5733. {Mr. Thompson.) You have said that you would equalize the collegers and place them as much as possible on a level. Do you perceive any pecuniary .or economical advantages in such distinctions as al- m ready exist between 'them, wJiich would not exist if l{| there were more unrestrained intercourse between the two ? — Some have felt that it might be a good thing if the money now given for the support of the collegers were entirely spent in oppidan scholarships, but the money would not go so far. Of course there are economical advantages ;in their diet and mode of ■living being simpler. 5734. Do you think generally that the separation existing between the t.v.'o bodies has any tendency to protect the collegers in some measure from what one might call the contagion of oppid.an extrava- gance ? — Yes. I think the Head Master and Pro- vost could and would always exercise a very distinct veto in the case of a colleger's wishing to go into the boats or to engage in any of the more expensive amusements. 5735. Independent of those, I should presume that ■the bills run up by .collegers are much smaller ? — Yes. 5736. Is not th.tt partly owing to their isolation ? — Partly ; but I think, without speaking generally, there is a very proper feeling on the part of the boys, ithat they are the sons of poor men. 573,7. They could spend more if they liked ? — Yes. 5738. {Lord Lyttelton.) Do you know what sort of ■allowances they receive from their parents generally ? — They are small ; not so large as the oppidans. 5739. {Mr. iVaughan.) Do you say tliat it is ipractically the case, that there is a limit put upon the competition in favour of those wlio are the poorer ? — There is a preference to boys about 12. 5740. 1 mean with regard to poverty, or other- wise ? — Wo. 5741. Then does it happen universally, that theie being no limitation of that sort to the competition, that people do not take advantage of it, who are .wealthy ? — ^I think, generally speaking, people do not take advantage of it who are wealthy ; some few do who ought not to 'have done so. 5742. You use the expression, " ought not," and :therefore, perhaps, I need not ask your opinion as to whether it is an advisable limitation or not ? — I think it is an advisable limitation. 5743. You think it is better for the wliole school generally, that povert)' should be one of the qualifica- tions ? — ^I think so, certainly. 5744. With regard to the subsequent communication lietween the two bodies, do you think it is a limitation that does not act unfavourably ? — I do not think it does. 5745. Do you think that it a little prevents the example of hard work from acting so favourably on the oppidans as it might do, if boys were elected, whatever might be their pecuniary prospects ? — The fact is, that for some years the oppidans have not worked so hard as collegers ; but I do not think of that as a reason. 5746. Do you not think it may be possible, there being an eleemosynary element in it, as well as an PUBLIC SCHOOLS COMMISSION: — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. S03 element of intellectual qualification, that that may a, little have made working out of fashion among the oppidans ? — No ; I think not. I think the feeling grew up among the oppidans, that it was useless to compete with the collegers, and that tliat was dis- heartening. 5747. (Sir S. Xorthcote.) What should you think would be the eft'ect on the relations between oppi- dans and collegers, if oppidan csliibitions were esta- blished, to bo obtained by competition among the oppidans, nearly as severe as that which exists for the scliolarships ? — I think that that would draw the tno classes of boys very much more together ; they would feel that oppidans, as well as collegers, had something at stake. 5748. {Lord Li/ttelfon.) I am not sure tha.t I understand your answer to question 18. Tlie average amount of annual charges to a scholar are put at 25/. ? — Somewhat under 251. 5749. But in the foot-note you have given a bill, which looks as if it meant his expenses foB one school- term, and that alone is 251. ? — That is a ditferent class of charges. It is 18/. 17.«. 9c?. 5750. But for that school-time alone the expenses were nearly 19/. ? — Yes ; but private bills are in- cluded in that 19/. ; it is a different class of charges. 5751. You mean that the strictly .school expenses are 251. ? — Yes, as against 120 or 130 guineas in the other case. 5752. What a father would actually have to pa}' ire bills is about three times 18/.? — -49/. 17*. was the average of the hill's actually sent for many j'eai's. 5753. And of that you think about one-half, sti'ict.y speaking, are school charges ? — Yes. 5754. Are you aware whether there was any feel- ing among the collegers themselves, or among the parents, that the payment which they make for tuition, is a grievance ? — I think not. The feeling of S(mie parents was rather the other way. One ftither, cer- tainly he is a man of means, who had three childreit on the foundiitiou, two of whom are now very dis- tinguished boys and another likely to distinguish Limself, used to complain that the tutor was not paid enough — that he would willingly double the amount if he could. 5755. Do you think, looking at the whole state of the case, the improvements in the college, the oppor- tunity of learning more, and so on, which they have, that the position of the colleger, in respeet to pay- ment, is not unfair '' — I think that the fi\e guineas charged for the payment of servants and extra comforts- is very unfair. 5756. That you think the College ought not to take ? — No, and they ought to give tea and sugar. 5757. {Mr. Thompson.) They have altered that, I think ? — They had not altered it when I left at Easter. I sent the Easter bills to parents ; there have been no bills sent to parents since it was so. 5758. {Sir S. Northcote.) I thought it was tea and sugar instead of washing? — No; it w.as bread, butter, and milk, for tea, instead of washing. The old college meals were only breakfast, dinner, and' supper. They formerly ga\'e washing to the Ijoys, and now, instead of washing, they give bread', butter, and milk. 5759. {Lord Lyttelton.) Does not the care of the master in college appear to you to be a great ad- vantage and a great improvement on what was pro- vided by the statutes ? — Very great. 5760. Do you think that that should be put as a set off against the five guineas ? — No, I think not, because the College are distinctly answerable for the moral care of the boys under their charge. 5761. "Under the statutes that was intended to be thrown on some of the elder boys themselves ? — Yes ; but was not the lower master to live in college ? 5762. With regard to the tuition, that does not seem to you, in present circumstances, to be an unfair charge ? — Not at all. 5763. Are )'ou aware of any injurious effects on delicute boys frem the still remaining monotony, ETON. 14 July 1862. though it is not so great as it was, of the diet niutlou five times a week ? — Yes. 5764. What are they ? — I think that the diet Bev. C.K.Paul should be more varied, and there is no doubt that some boys do go without theii- dinner. 5765. Because they cannot eat it ? — I have known boys not able to eat mutton five days in the week. They have gone without their dinner not because the mutton is not good, because the diet is as good as it can be, but some boj-s are not able to eat a particular thing. I think there should' certainly be a choice of diet at their dinner. 5766. Have you known the boys go elsewhere for tlif^ir dinners ? — No. 5767. And these boys actually went without their dinners ? — Yes, because they arc mostly little boys ; the elder boys have the better joints of the meat. 5768. Have you known it often ? — No, not often. 5769. {Sir S. JVortlicofe.) Do you think it would be possible to arr.ango the dinney, S9 that the little boys might get their fair share of the best joints? — I think it is quite possil)lc. 5770. We were told that the matter was so much in the hands of the boys themselves, tb.at it would always practically come to the uppei" boys getting the best joints, and the others haviug the inferior joints, if the inferior joints were provided ? — I would not have inferior joints provided. 5771. What is the quality of the beer? — Very good. 5772. Has that always been so ? — Yes, since I have known college. 5773. {Lord Lyttelton.) Generally, all the pro^ visions are very good ? — Yes. 5774. Is it any more than an ancieut tradition that the collegers should have mutton ? — I do not think it is more than tradition. Of course if a boy can eat one kind of meat, he had much better have mutton every day ; it is the meat which palls much less upon him than any other. 5775. {Sir S. Northcote.) Practically it comes to this, that not only do the little boys eat mutton five days a week, but it must be shoulders of mutton ? — Yes, and fat ends of the loin. 5776. They do not get the leg ? — No. 5777- {Lord Lyttelton.) Db you think 't is desi- rable that tltere should be more of a second course, puddings, and so on ? — No, 1 do not think it is at all necessary. 5778. It is not above once a week ? — Once a week, sometimes twice. 5779. You think that is enough ? — I do not think more is necessary. 5780. {Mr. Thompson.) They have cheese ? — No ; that they provide for themselves. 5781. (Lord Lyttelton.) You have not heard them complain? — No; I think cheese should be provided. 5782. {Sir S. Northcote.) With regard to the beer, do you think it as good as, or inferior to, or better than the beer which is generally given in the tutors' and dames' houses ? — It is better. The same beer that was drunk at the boys' table was the beer I always had in my own house, and I certainly liked my own beer better than any I got when I dined out. 5783. (Lord Lyttelton.) Is it bought ? — No ; it is all brewed at the college brewery. 5784. {Mr. Thomjison.) Have you .any remarks to make as to the hours of the meals ? — No ; I think there is a difficulty, but that is a question for the tutors more than for me, — about the tutors construing, which m.ikes tlie breakfast of the little boys very late. Many a little boy has got up at seven, and what with fagging, and his duties of construing and so on, has not got his Ijreakfast till 10. There is a mistake somewhere, but I do not see myself how it is to be set to right. It ought to be certainly. 5785. Is the supper sufficient for the purpose, do you think ? — Quite ; and by no means all the boys take supper. Cc 3 204 PUBLIC SCHOOLS COMMISSION :— MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. ETOJJ. 5786. It is not all boys who require meat more ' than once a day ?— No ; if a boy was ill or delicate, litv.C. K.Paul, anj extras were ordered, these were provided for him. t"; — oco 5787. You had the power of doing tJiat ? — Yes. 1 4 July 186 2. ^^^^^ ^^ ^j^^ expense of tie College ?— At the expense of the College. 5789. {Mr. Twisleton.) What are the vegetsibles supplied to the college ?— Potatoes ordinarily, anut two went up before. 5890. {Lord Clarendon.) Do yon not think, con- sidering the facility with which foreign languages are acquired by eliildreu, that it would be desirable to begin French in the lower school ? — I should bo very glad if it could be done, and I could see any way to it. o897. What constitutes the difficulty ?— The diffi- culty is the want of time. 5898. {Lord I^yttelton.) Do you mean they are not allowed to leai-u French ? — Certainly they are allowed. 5899. You mean it is not compulsory ? — It is not compulsory. There is no obstacle put in the way of their learning French, but I understood -the question to I'C was it a part of the school teaching ? It is not. 5900. {I^ord Clarendon.) If that boy was at home and properly educated he would be taught to read and write and probably French and German. Why should it not be so at school ? — No doubt il' we could find time. 5901. There is abundance of time to be found at home ? — There are many other things to be taught at school. 5902. What besides reading, writing, and arith- metic ? — Latin and Greek. 5903. Do you moan to say time could not be found for French ? — I think you would find that their time is amply filled. 5904. (Mr. Twisleton.) Could you not give them four hours a week in French ? — Yes. But must lose something else. There is such a pressure now in the lower school work that I could not add four hours. 5905. {Lord Lt/ttolton.) Do they ever learn French ? — Yes, and German. Lower school boys quite young have gone in for the Albert prize, 590(5. {Mr. Vaughan.) If I understand the Eton system they are not compelled in the upper school to learn French ? — No. 5907. So that the lower school and the upper school are precisely on the same footing ?~-Precisely; tliat has ever been a part of the Eton system. 5903. You spoke of certain masters in the lower school being confined to lower school pupils ; is there much room for pupil v»'ork as distinct from class work in the lower school ? — A great deal. They do all their work with their tutors. 5909. Do they do the most elementary work, such as the grammar, with their tutor ? — All their lessons are prepared in the pupil room. 5910. The construing it and the saying of it by heart ? — There is scarcely any work whatever done by themselves. 5911. Do they actually sit and learn their grammar in the presence of the tutor ? — Yes. 5912. In fact every lesson is a double lesson ? — Yes ; in that respect the system of the lower school difiers from the upjier school where the boys are left to do the work much more by themselves. We con- sider that in the lower school they ought to do it with the tutor. 5913. You spoke of the probability of the increase of the lower school ; is that increase to arise from a wish to extend it on the part of the school authorities generally ? — All I can say of course is, that being lower master it is my wish to extend it. 5914. Is the wish on your part to increase the numbers in the lower school founded on the observa- tion that boys from the lower school are more manage- able and at home at Eton if they have been in the lower school, or that they are better instructed if they have been in the lower school ? — For both reasons, I think, 5915. Is it a matter within your experience that boys altogether do better in the higher forms at Eton when they have been well through the lower school than if they had been at preparatory schools ? — I have no doubt of it in my own mind, and in the case of my own pupils I can speak for certain. 5916. With regard to their comfort, do you think that that also is as great in the lower school at Eton under the present arrangements as in preparatory schools ? — Provided a boy is in one of the lower school houses ; in the other case he fares exactly the same as an ordinary boy. 5917. Do you think the arrangement made as to the lower school houses has succeeded in all respects ? — Quite so. It has been made now for many years- I think the proof of it has been its success, becausa some few years ago there was a difficulty in filling the houses ; the difficulty now is in getting a va- canc}'. 5918. Do you think it is a good arrangement, the lower boys being congregated together in one house in preference to their being scattered amongst upper boys in many houses ? — I am quite sure they do better. 5919. You use the general phrase, " do better ;" can you particularize a little more ? — I mean they are more steady ; their work is done better, and they make more progress. 5920. And they are more comfortable ? — Yes. 5921. {Lord Lytteltou.) Is there no bullying? — I think not. Mr. Hawtrey plays with them at football, cricket, and other games. I think it has been very much improved since he has had his new house. 5922. {Mr. J'aughan.) Is it the case that a dif- ferent place of amusement is assigned to them because there is no room elsew'here or because it is supposed to protect them in their amusements ? — Because it has been thought better to keep them away from other boys as much as possible, but there is no ob- jection to their going with other boys. 5923. It is only a place they may have ? — Yes. 5924. Is any upper boy allowed to intrude there ? —No. 5925. Not even by permission ? — There would be now and then an exceptional case, but as a rule upper boys do not come. 5926. {Lord Lyttelton.) Is that separate house popular among the boys ? — I think so. 5927. {Lord Clarendon.) You receive no salary from the College but 78/. a year ? — That is so. 5928. Your income is made up from the fees ? Each boy pays an entrance fee of four guineas and six guineas a year ? — Yes. 5929. How many boys enter in the year on an average ?— I suppose lately it has been about 60 or a little above 60 ; you might put it perhaps at 70, but I could not speak for certain. I think that 20 a school time has been about the average, but it is less in the winter. 5930. All charges for noblemen are doubled ? — All those charges. 5931. The entrance and the school fee ? — Yes. 5932. By a nolileman do you mean a nobleman's son ? — Noblemen's sons and baronets. 5933. From those funds, and those funds alone, you pay your assistants 30/. a year? — Yes. 5934. You have four assistants ? — Yes. 5935. That is 120/. a year. From what other sources do they derive their emoluments ? — The same ■as with otliei masters ; from their pupils. 5936. You say, "The total receipts in 1860 were " 1,004/. ; in 1861, 1,024/., but these sums are con- " siderably above the average, from the numbers of " the lower schoiil having increased." Are the profits on boarding included in that ? — That is the whole sum I actually received from boys in the lower school. 5937. That is the fees ?-^The entrance fees, and the six guineas a year. 5938. The sums stated here do not include the profits on boarding houses ? — No. 5939. You say, " During the last school time the "total number of boys was 119, and of assistant •' masters four," that would be about 30 boys to each roaster ?^There arc five masters ; four assistants, and myself. There are five teachers in the lower school. 5940. I do not know whether you state in your written answers how those boys are divided and into what classes ?— I think you will find I have done that. Cc 4 W. ETON. Rev. A. Carter. 15 July 1862. 20S KJBLIC SCHOOLS COJIMISSION : — MINUTES OF EVIDEyCK 15 July 1862. ETON. 5941. Of course those numbers are not at all more than each master can take ? — No ; I think he requires Ucv. as many as that to keep him up to his own work, and W. A. Carter, ^q j^pgp tlie boys »p too. 5942. To keep up the spirit of the class ? — I think so. 5943. {Lord Lyttclton.) It is much more in the upper school ?— Yes ; I think that 13, which is the number of one division, is too small, and I should have been glad to increase ft, but there were not enough boys. 5944. {Lord Clarendon.) Are you looking forward to the lower school being increased much more than it is ? — I hope it may. It has increased every year. 5945. This is a larger proportion of masters to pupils than we find in the upper school. What has led to that ? — Simply when one thinks one wants a master one is appointed ; there is no rule at all. 5946. {Lord Lyttclton.) Do you think there is any distmction ; that boys of that age want a greater propoition of masters than the elder boys ? — I think they do. 5£H7. Will you explain on what account they want more ? — I think in the lower school much more attention is given to each boy and more is required of each boy. 5948. Can you give any details about it ; why boys of that age want more individual teaching ? — Perhaps in the grounding they require it more. 5949. {Lord Clarendon.) Do you not think that as the studies become more difficult individual atten- tion would be more required ? — I speak as having been an assistant for some years, and I should have been sorry to have had a division nnder 40. I am quite sure I could teach a division of 40 as well as a division of 20 of older boys. I think if a mau could not teach a division of 40 he could not teach a division of 30 or 20. 5950. It is not that he can teach a division of 30, but can he do it in the time that is allotted to him, and can he do justice to the boys ? — I think a little •more time might be desirable. 5951. {Mr. Vaughan.) For each lesson? — Yes; Our hours are longer than those in the upper school. We have an hour each school-time, they have three- quarters of an hour. 5952. {Lord Clarendon.) Can yon do all you would desire in a class of 40 upper boys in three- quarters of an hour ? — I should like to have an hour. I could do more. 5953. {Mr. Tioislefon.) What has been the diffi- culty in having an hour ? — It has been proppsed at times, but there have been objections raised by those who were concerned. 5954. What was the nature of the objections ? — It was putting more upon them. 5955. On the masters ? — Y^es. 5956. {Mr. Vaughan.) Have those same masters and boys had pupil instruction immediately before the lesson in the upper school? — That depends of course on the tutor's own arrangements ; whether he has his boys imm(?diately before school. For most cases it is so, certainly. 5957. How long do those pupil instructions last, generally ? — Do you mean what we call " con- struings ? " 5958. Yes ? — They may last an hour and a half between 9 and 11. 5959. How long will one and the same boy be re- ceiving his pupil instruction before a lesson ? He will be there aljout 20 or 25 minutes, as the case may be, sometimes longer. 5960. So that a boy's lesson would amount altogether to something like one hour and 25 minutes ? There is jlways a break between the two. /5961. So that the fact of their going to the pupil room before lesson constitutes no objection to extend- ing the time of such lesson to an hour ? — I think not. •If it was a rule that they always passed from the pupil-room to the school, and from the school to the j)upil-room, I thint that would be an objection. 5962. In the majority of cases, you think that it is not so ? — I think not. 5963. {I^ord Clarendon.) Your four assistant masters include the arithmetic master ? — No, they do not. There are four assfstant classical m&sters in the lower school, besides myself. Perhaps I may state, as a thing which I contemplate, and which I spoke to the Provost about at Easter, and have his sanctioli for if I can manage it, to appoint a mathematical master, who will take the whole of the mathematical work in the lower school alone. 5964. {Lord Li/ttelfon,) As it fs, they have a part of the time of the mathematical masters, besides the five yon mention ? — Yes, if you take the writing, arithmetfe, and dictation, they have more. 5965- {Lord Clarendon.) There is one master and six or seven teachers ? — Four classical teachers, and seven mathematical, writing, and dictation teachers. 5966. {hBrd Lyttelton.) But you have only part of their timie', it rs shared with the whole school ? — I do not seein to have made it cfear to you. 5967. {Lord Clarendon.) Not quite as to the ma- theniatrcal masters ? — Their work is done in a different place in the school. There is Mr. Hawtrey and seven teachers who have the sole charge of the dictation, writing, and arithmetic. The classical part is done by myself and four assistants. I should wish to have a mathematical master who wonl'd take the work the same as I do, because I think ft Is very essential to keep the divisions together. 5968. How does the lower school go to Mr. Haw- trey, in classes ? — For writing and dictation on the whole school days, from 12 to J, they all go to the mathematical school, but there are teachers to over- look them, and instruct them. 5969. {Lord Lyttelton.) They go apart from the upper school entirely ? — Yes. 5970. {Lord Clarendon.) It is in a sort of theatre ? — Yes. If I carried out the scheme I propose they would not go there ; I should then have them in another room. 5971. Then you would have them as yon do for classical work ? — Yes. 5972. {Mr. Vaughan.) You have said that witb regard to the upper boys, you consider that a person not competent to teach 40 weFT will not be competent to teach 30 well. Will you explain that, particidarly with reference to the fact that with 40 each boy must be called up less frequently ? — There are always a certain number of boys out ; there wifl be three or four boys out, and a boy never can know when he is going to be caded up. He may be caHed up each of the school times in a day, and a master may call up 20 boys in an hour. 5973. Is this your position with regard to it, tha.t with 40 boys a man by skilful management may so arrange his system of calling up by dodging the boys, and so forth, that he may ensure as much preparation on the part of each individual boy as if there were only 20 or 30 boys in class ? — I should not perhaps call it skilful management, I should say it was the plain work of the teacher. 5974. Say then, by proper management ? — A teacher ought to be able to arrest the attention of his whole class. He should be able to keep his whole class alive and following him. 9975. Do you mean that by merely iptellectual treatment of the subject he ought to be able to do that ? — I think he may keep up the interest. 5976. Or do you mean that merely the mechanical management as it were with which he works the class that he would do it ? — I do not quite understand what you mean by " machinery." 5977. I consider the one means quite distinct from the other means. I understood you to say that his method of teaching should be such as to arrest the attention of his class and keep it alive ? — Yes. 5978. I wished to observe a distinction between that and the outward arrangements which he may make about the number of boys called up for in- stance, the order or the want of order in which he 1*UBLIC SCHOOLS COSIMISSION : — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 209 calls them up ? — I should have thought it was simply Lis mothoil of teaching ; it will all fall more or less under that. 5979. I am simply desirous of understanding what you think the nature of the hold of a master of a class of boys above 14 to be, and whether it is an intel- lectual hold which he would maintain ? — It would bo partly that and partly his own arrangements. You will tind that every master will manage a division differently. 5980. As I understand the matter in the case of the 30, by mere arrangements as to calling up the boys &c., he can supply the want of the intellectual interest which they may take in the work, whereas if he gets to 40 or 50 he is no longer able to supply by those arrangements any deficiency of interest which the boys may take in their work ? — I think it would be very much the same. I cannot draw that distinc- tion. 5981. {Mr. Thompson.) Do you think it would be the same with 50 ? — I think as j-ou get beyond 40 you increase your difficulty. 5982. {Mr. Vaug/tan.) It is your opinion then, that, supposing a master does not call up every boy in the class, if he has a class so large that he cannot call up every bo)', in that case it matters very little whether he has 40 or 30 in the class ? — Of course a master would not call up everyone if there were 30, it would be an exception to the rule. 5983. If a master cannot call up eveiy boy for everj- lesson, in either case he can teach a class of 40 as well as a class of 30 ? — Quite as well, and I would Booner have a class of 40 than a class of 30. 5984. Will you explain that ? — Because I am sure I can create more interest. I do my own work bet- ter and do more good to the boys. 5985. Do you mean there would be a stronger stimulus upon you ? — Yes. 5986. Do you think that as far as you have ob- served with masters at Eton or elsewhere, it is a common feeling that the larger their classes the more they labour with them and the more pleasant their labour l)ecomes ? — I really can only speak from my own experience. 5987. Do you thiuk, then, with the average number of boys between 14, when we say they go to the school, and 17, it is the case that a good master may really rely on having an intellectual hold on the boys which will keep them up to the mark ? — You mean a division of 40 ? I have not a doubt of it. 5988. I thought that your distinction about 40 af- fected the master rather than the boys ? — 1 am speak- ing with reference to the master rather than with reference to the boy there. 5989. But it is the effect on the boys generally which is the point that I am desirous of appre- ciating. Do you think with regard to the boys that by the simple intellectual treatment of the sub- ject the master can keep alive and working the boys whom he is teaching ? — I am quite sure he will do as much good with 40 as with 30 boys. 5990. Does not that imply a great deal of interest in their lessons and a great desire to get on on the part of the boys, and a great appreciation of the master ? — Of course you will always find in every division that there will be some half dozen or more boys who will not take the same interest as others. 5991. (Sir S. Korthcote.) When you were an assis- tant master, having one of the senior divisions, how many boys did you generally call up in a school time ? — One would call up 14 or 15, sometimes more, sometimes less, but then sometimes you have seven or eight boys together ; I have scarcely ever gone on the principle of having a single boy up. 5992. {Mr. Vaughan.) Is it the practice when boys are called up that they are brought nearer to the master, or that they stand up in their places ? — They stand up in their places. 5993. {Sir S. Korthcote.) You put a boy on to construe ; how could you put six or seven boys on to construe at once ? — If you were hearing a lesson of 1. Homer one would construe three lines, then another, and then another, not as they come in order. 5994. What do you mean by calling up, at once, six or seven boys ? — They would all stand up at the same time ; we should do perhaps 15 lines and then the questions that would be given would be answered by any of those standing up. 5995. Suppose they failed to answer any of those questions ? — Then (hey would sink in the division. 5996. {Mr. Vaughan.) It is a class within a class, as it were ? — No, it is not, it is merely those who are called up. They would sit down and I should call up another seven or eight. 5997. Is not that class of seven or eight, as it were, a class within a class ? — No, I should call up one there, another tliere, and another there ; if this one could not do the work the next perhaps would do it and take his place. 5998. The next sitting down ? — Yes, in that way it keeps up the attention of the whole. 5999. {Sir S. Northcote.) Supposing you saw a boy in any other part of the division apparently not attending, would not that probably draw your atten- tion to him and induce you to ask him a question ? — Undoubtedly ; I did not do it quite in the highest division, but in all others, boys who know the answer to the question hold up their hands. 6000. So that, in fact, a master with a division of 40 boys, is iible to see pretty weU and to judge whether the boys do know their lessons fairly or not, and if he has any reason to think that any particular boy has not got his lesson properly prepared he calls him up and tests him ? — Yes. 6001. {Mr. Thompson.) Is there not great differ- ence between one master and another as to the skill with which he manipulates his class ? — I suppose there may be. 6002. Is it not a conceivable thing that many masters would find 40 too many for their powers ? — I can only give my own opinion that if a man cannot manage 40 he cannot manage 30. 6003. You are judging from your own experience, you also probably have had some experience of other masters ? — I do not think those men who have failed with 40 have succeeded with 30. It is not the differ- ence in the number. 6004. {Lord Lyttdton.) You think that 40 is about the right number ? — Yes. 6005. {Mr. Twinleton.) Calling up 15 boys to construe in 45 minutes, that would give three minutes to each, there would not, therefore, under such a S3^stem be any opportunity of testing the powers of a boy in construing into good English, would there ? — Of course when I say 15 1 am not taking it as a rule that there should be 15, sometimes there would be less, but as a rule I generally have the lessons construed and translated, drawing a distinction be- tween reading off the English and the construing. 6006. Some scholars attach great importance to testing the powers of a boy in construing, do you think that in three minutes you can fairly test the powers of a boy in construing as distinguished from your proving that he has learnt his lessons ? — You must remember that this lesson has been construed before with the tutor, and that the boy may be called up twice in the same day to do the same thing. If it was for a single lesson I do not know that I should be able to do it, but the boy is continually with me, and he may be called up seven or eight times a week. 6007. But in that porticular lesson he could not be tested as to his powers of construing ? — If I were to call up each boy and give him longer time, yoiL must reduce your divisions to 15 or 20. 6008. He does not have the same boys in the same day ? — I am saj-ing that the lesson is prepared with the tutor, beforehand. The questions are put quickly and passed from one boy to another, and you soon draw out the boy who has done the lesson best and knows the most. 6009. {Lord Clarendon.) The assistant masters are appointed by you ? — In the lower school. Dd ETON. Rev. W. A. Carter. 15 July 18C2. 210 PUBLIC SCHOOLS COJLMISSION : — MINUTES OF EVIDENX'E. ETON GO 10. Ami you liave always hitherto appointed - ■ them ami selected them and will continue to do so Ticv. from men who have taken degrees at the University .-' II'. A. Curler. Yes, I should wish to do so. I have one at present who I'las not taken a degree yet and will not do so 1 5 .July isr,2 . ^ju q,.,p1j^,,.^ ,ii.^t is an exceptional case, 1 could not otherwise ihid the man I wanted. 6011. I suppose for an assistant master in the lower school, you insist on their taking honours ?— -It has very often been the case that the masters in the lower school have gone up into the upper school. In fact of the three I have appointed one has gone up into the upper school, the second has not gone up yet, but there is no reason why he should not ; I do not'say that he will, because that rests with the Head Master. 6012. A shie qud -non is that they should have been educated at Eton ? — Yes. _ _ 6013. {Lord Lyttdton.) There is no restriction upon you, is there ?— There would have been an objection raised if I had proposed anyone else. 6014. By the Provost ?— Yes ; but I should not have wished to ajipoint anyone else. ■ 6015. {Lord Clarendon.) You affirm something in page 43, which perhaps other schools may take a little' objection to. You say, "The Eton system " differs from most, if not all, others in teaching a " boy moral self-control and self-respect and self- " reliance without self-consciousness, by combining " strict discipline with the greatest possible amount " of liberty and independence of action." I appre- hend that though other schools may fail in doing that, yet that ctrtainly would be the object they propose to themselves. You go on to say, " But if other than " Eton men were employed as masters or tutors — men " who, however excellent and desirable in other " respects, were unacquainted with Eton ways and " habits from not having been at the school themselves,^ •" it would be necessary to make such alterations of ^' discipline as would greatly tend to change the cha- " racter and impair, perhaps, the benefits derived " from the school ;" so that if a Harrow or Eugby master were appointed, you think there would be danger to that system of self-respect, self-reliance, and self-consciousness, which are the characteristics of Eton ? — I am speaking there of the school in general, and if you appointed foreigners, you must alter the system of the place. 6016. Why ? — Simply because the boys at Eton liave far greater liberty than they have at any other school, and an Eton man would know perfectly what they do, generally where they go, and what their amusements are, because one generation is but a repe- tition of another. They do pretty much the same now that they did when I was a boy myself. 6017. Is this knowledge of the ways of Eton bo3-s such an inscrutable mystery that you think a Rugl3y or a Harrow man would not be able to dive into it in the course of a twchemonth or so ? — Perhaps he might. 6018. I think this is a very strong statement, the affirmation that these are the exclusive peculiarities of Eton ? — Xo ; by combining the two things. 6019. You say that the Eton system differs from all others in teaching a boy moral self-control ? — By those two processes. 6020. {Mr. Twislefon.) What is the proportion of new masters coming into the school in the course of the year on an average ? — I do not know that I can give you that. 6021. Can you give me a general idea, four or five ? —No. 6022. Two or three ? — I should think the average •>vas certainly not above two. 6023. Well, then, supposing two new masters Iteming to the school iu a year, and supposing them to come from Rugby, could they not be tauglit by the masters who are already in the school the m3-steries of Eton peculiarities ? — I think some of the masters who are not Eton men do not seem to get on with Eton boys so well as those who were at Eton, and I think it would be exactly the same at Harrow. 1 should think it would be better to have Harrow men at Harrow, Rugliy men at Rugby, and Eton men at Eton, It is not that I set an Eton man above a Rugby man. I think an Eton "man is the right man in the right place at Eton. 6024. Are you aware that some of the most dis- tinn;uished masters at Rugby were not educated at Eugby ?— Yes. 6025. You arc aware that Dr. Arnold was not edu- cated at Rugby ? — Yes. 6026. Nor the present Head Master ? — Yes. The Rugby .system ni.ay be totally different from ours. 6027. {Lord Clarendon.) You say, "combining the " two things :" that is, " combining strict discipline " with the greatest possible amount of liberty and in- " dependence of action." Will you have the goodness to explain what you consider to be the great amount of liberty and independence of action enjoyed at Eton that is not enjoyed at other schools ? — I think boj'S are left very much more to themselves than in other schools. 6028. In what respect ? — Take the case of Win- chester. 6029. {Mr. Twislelon.) Take the case of Harrow ? — Well, so far as I know, I should say that the general impression on my mind is tliat there is more liberty at Eton than at Harrow. 6030. {Lord Clarendon.) Are you quite sure that there may not sometimes be too much liberty and independence of action at Eton. We have it in evidence that after four o'clock on a Sunday there is a great deal of drinking iu public-houses ? — I think there is very little. 6031. And that there is an established system of resorting to the Tap, as well as to the Christopher, that is not interfered with, and does not always seem to be very beneficial ? — I do not quite understand you there. As far as the Sunday is concerned, I think that is not the character, by any means, of the school. Amongst so large a number you may find some boy who will do that, and it always will be so ; I do not deny that ; but it is by no means the cha- racter of the school, nor of the generality of it, nor anything of the kind. If a boy has that desire, he would do it, whatever time he may liave. I do not think it is the extent of the time which throws him there. 6032. Do you think the maimer in which boys are allowed to resort to the Tap and to the Christopher has a beneficial result ? — I do not know that the boys are allowed to do so. 6033. But they are not interfered with : it is not prohibited ? — Indeed it is. 6034. Going to the Tap? — Indeed it is; and if they were seen coming out they would be punished for it. 6035. They can shirk it ? — No. If I saw any boy coming out either of the Tap or the Christopher, I should immediately communicate with his tutor. It might be wiser to leave it in the tutor's hands ; and I often think it may be that you may exercise a better control over the boy through the tutor than through the Head Master; otherwise I should lay it before the Head Master. 6036. {3Ir. Vaurjhan.) In a case of that kind do you think that a more decided monitorial system might be of service ? — No. 6037. I suppose that masters have not the oppor- tunity. They cannot be standing about the street, or mixing with the boys from time to time ; therefore they cannot see whether they go into a place like the Christopher or the Tap. Supposing that % certain power more definite than exists at present were confided to boys in the position of monitors, who would naturally be mixing with other boys, do you not think that that might have the eft'ect of checking bad habits of such a description ? — I think not. 6038. Could you point out how it would fail ? — I could not point out how it would succeed. PUBLIC SCHOOLS COMMLSSION :— MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 211 60.')9. I wilt .-^liow you what I mean and then pcr- hni)s voii will bo nlile to ])oiiit out where the fiiihire woiilil be. .Siipiiosiii^ that boys come out of church together and tlic monitors are about the streets as the other boys themselves are, the other boys are uiulcr the eyes of the monitor, and the monitor is an obstacle to the boy going into the Tap without being seen ? — Then I think this upper boy must never do such a thing himselt". 6040. I mean supposing that ho would not do such ,1 thing himselt' would it not be an advantage in that respect ? — In Utopia I think it would. 6041. Such a thing as a boy in the sixth form not "oing into a public house, then, in the apprehension of an Eton master, is an ITtopian possibility ? — No. 1 think that is a very hard way of putting it. I think j-ou cannot ensure that a monitor would not do such a thing. - 6042. (Lord Li/tteJtnn.) You think boys are better prepared in the lower school than in preparatory schools. Is it your ojiiuion that preparatory schools, as far as the teaching of grammar is concerned, have im- proved or the contrary of late years ? — I think they have not improved. They have multiplied too much. V^'e have many boys wlio come, who have been at school perhaps four or five years, and who do not know the elements of Greek. They read books which are too high for them. We have boys come sometimes who are said to have been reading Sophocles, ae.d wlio do not know a verb. 6043. {}[>•. T/inmpso».) You mentioned that there were non-Etonian masters, -will you allo\y me to ask how many there are P^They are not classical masters, onh' mathematical. 6043. Do you think the experiment has been tried sufficienth'. Is there anything in the position oc- cupied by a mathematical master which would place him at a disadvantage with Eton boys as compared with other masters, do you think ? — I do not know that there need be. 604.3. I think it is very generally asserted that there is. We h.Tve been infonned that that is the case not only by the mathematical but by the classical masters ? — I think if the masters understood the boys they would succeed better. 6046. No doubt at the outset an Eton man would iniderstanJ Eton ways, but it does not follow that because one or two mathematical masters may have failed that therefore a classical master who occupies a position of greater advantage would necessarily fail? . — That must be a matter of oj)inion. 6047. I presume tlie classical master would be a man of higher attaimnents than the matliematical piasters whom 5'ou generally select? — I do not know ; there are mathematical masters who are not inferior. 6048. You would not now take any classical master for the higher school who had uot obtained high honours ?— ^I presume uot. 6049. You said also that boys did now what tliey did 30 years ago ; are we to interpret that literally ? — No ; the Eton boy is much the same in his .amuse- ments and general habits. 6050. (Sir S. Northcote.) With regard to these masters whom 3'ou have appointed, you have had some knowledge of them before they were appointed? —Yes. 6051. What kind of a knowledge of them have you generally ? — I have known them as boys in the school. 6052. And yon h.ave h.ad the means of knowing and have taken an interest in them from the time they came to the school, and you have seen something of them in their university career? — Yes; in fact that is always a point which is looked to before the appoirtment. 6053. Do you think you could easily get as Tnuch knowledge of any other than an Eton man ? — Cer- tainly not. 6054. Are there not many qualifications which you would require in a man besides university dis- tinction ? Do you not require to know something of las character and temper ? — Yes. 6055. Is not that a reason for prefering Eton men whose characters you know, to others of whom you can know very little, except from their university distinctions ? — Yes ; certainly. 6056. {Mr. ]'aiighan.) Do you or do you not think that considering the classes in society from which I'jton boys mainly eome, that they have an ailvan- tage over many schools as to points of demeanour generally ? — I cannot speak as compared with other schools, I only know that nothing could be better than the tone and temper of mind wo have to deal with. 6057. But 3'ou say that " the Eton system differs " from most if not all other .systems in teaching" certain social virtues to a boy, which you particu- larize, and therefore I wish to draw 3-our mind to the consideration as to how far the advantages you hiive described as characteristic of the bearing of an Eton boj', as compared with those of other schools, m.ay arise fr(,m the school itself, and how far from their social position, and from the social h.abits which arc cultivated in that position ? — I suppose there is no great ditlcrence between those of Eton and Harrow. 6058. (Lord Lyttelton.) Assuming that it is de- sirable to keep up the general traditions and tone of the school, you think it is better done by Eton masters ? — Yes. 6059. {Lord Clarendon.) You s.aj' that the lower masters are not allowed to take any out pujiils ; that is to say, he takes no jtupils but those in his house ? — • Yes. 6060. And in consequence of that, the ch.argo is 130/. ? — Yes ; it is 10/. more than the assistant masters. 6061. That is for no addition.'d advantage which the parent or the boy derives ? — Of course there would bo more time given in that way, if you have fewer pujiils. 6062. But you have 33, have you uot, in your house ? — Yes. 6063. Forty is supposed to be tlie maximum ?— That is the number which has been lately fixed, but there has been no change for some j'cars. When I was an assistant master I used to t.ake 50, or something of that kind. 6064. I do not think 3-ou have given us what you ronsidor to be the profit upon each boarder in j'onr house ^ — It was gone into some time ago, and it came to 45(. out of the 120/. 6065. £55 in 3'onr instance ? — Yes. 6066. AVhat are included in the school expenses. Are the3' the s.ame as for the upper school? — Yes-; the Sanatorium and many other things. 6067. Do all the lower bo3's pay for the Sanatorium too ? — Yes ; all the boys in the school. In all these payments they are the same ; in some respects they pay rather less, but not for the Sanatorium. 6068. And for paving, watching, and gas ? — Yes ; that all comes under one head, "watching and lighting," we call it. I do not know what that has been fixed at. It was reduced .some little time ago. 6069. Do the bo3's in the lower school pay the 10 guineas for mathematics? — Those are extra mathcm.atics ; voluntary mathematics, not compulsor3' 6070. Are mathematics as such t.aught in the lower school ? — The whole school goes to Mr. Hawtroy. 6071. Do they p.ay anything addition.al for that? — £4 18.f., of which four guineas is for teaching ; the rest is for materials. 6072. They have no French, I think ? — -No French compulsoril3'. 6073. Do any of them p.ay for extra Freneli, voluu- tai'ily in the lower school ? — That I cannot sa3'. I believe they do. 6074. You do not know whether any of them learn French ? — I do not know that they do not ; but that would rest with the tutor. It does not come before me at all. I know that some bo3-s learn German, because they went in for the Albert prize. Dd 2 ETON. Itcv. \V. A. Carter. 15 July 18G2. 212 PUBLIC SCHOOLS COMMISSION: — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. ETON. W. A Rcr. Carter. 15 July I8G2. 6075. (Lord Clarendon.) The lower school do not do private business, do' they ?— No, they have no time. , ,_ 6076. (Mr. Thompson.) And they only pay 10 guineas to their tutor ?— They pay 15 guineas to the master, who talies only the lower scliool. To Mr. Dupuis they paid 15 guineas, because he does really very much more worlc with them than an upper school tutor does with private pupils, and h:; has them very much more with him. 6077. (Sir S. Northcolc.) Can you say how many hours on a whole school-day a boy in the lower school is at work ?— It will vary, of course, with the excep- tion of meal times, and just a few breaks of going from school to pupil room ; now, in summer, he would almost always be at work from seven in the morning till six in the evening. 6078. Would he not get any play ?— Not during those times on whole school-d.ays. 6079. Not after 12 or after 4 ?— No. I could not find time to put on French or anything of the sort without reducing the time. 6080. When does he get his exercise ? — After six. 6081. In the winter it is dark? — Then he would have his after four. 6082. On other days he would have less work ? — Yes ; we reckon from four to five ; a tutor might give him from one to two, or something of that kind. 608.3. Do not they ever get after 12? — Very seldom. 6084. Do not they get it on holidays ? — Not very much, I think. 6085. (Lord Clarendon.) The little boys do not seem to get any exercise at all ? — Yes, they do very well, but they have as much work to do, I can assure yon, as they can do. 6086. (Lord Lijttelton.) What do they do at 12 o'clock when they see all the other boys going to plaj- ? — They then go to writing. 6087. (L^ord Clarendon.) Do the boys in your house have meat more than once a day ? — Twice ; always for dinner and supper. 6088. Cold meat at supper ? — Or hot meat, as it may suit. 6089. (Lord Lyttelto7i.) In all the houses inva- riably that is so ? — I should think so. Occasionally boys have meat for breakfast, if they want it. 6090. (Mr. Vaiighan.) Do the very little boys have that as well as the other boys ? — I cannot speak about Mr. Hawtrey's house. Any lower school boy in my house would have it just the same. 6091. You think it good for them ? — They thrive very well on it. 6092. And work well ?— Yes. 6093. (Sir S. Northcotc.) Do you think it is de- sirable in the lower school to mix the little boys who come at really tender ages, and the big boys of 12, 13, or 14, who are placed there because they are not fit for the fourth form ? — Do you mean in the same house or the same school ? 6094. In the same school ? — I do not think evil results from it. 6095. Do you think it would be better with regard to (hose bigger boys to have a strict matriculation examination, and if a boy was not fit for the upper school to reject him- altogether, instead of putting him down, after the age of, we wiU say 13, into the lowQ- school ? — It would alter the condition of Eton altogether. It would cease to be a public school in that sense. 6096. Why would it cease to be a public school ? — Because no boy below a certain age should be ex- cluded. Any boy may come there. 6097. But you put certain limits as to age ; you would not allow a boy of 18 to come in ? — No, we would limit them to 14. 6098. Supposing you limited the age in the lower school to, we will s.ay, 12 ?_At one time I began doing it, and I found it was impossible to keep to it. There was such a pressure. Perhaps a boy had just any passed the age and was not fit for the upper school, the parent was disappointed, and pressed that he should be taken into the lower school. 6099. Do you not think it would have the effect of stimulating preparatory schools to prepare boys better than they do ? — I think not. 6100. You yourself complain thfit many of the preparatory schools send up boys not properly trained in grammar ? — I do complain of it, 6101 . And you think that is an evil which is rather increasing than dimiuishing ? — Yes, but I do not think that this vi'ould remedy it, because they represent to the parents that the boys are fit for the remove, when they are scarcely fit for the lower school. 6102. Would not parents very soon find out that these private schoolmasters were deceiving them, and would not they therefore put pressure upon them ? — They do not practically. 6103. No, because at present the boys are not re- jected ? — The parents are much disappointed some- times by their boys being put in the lower school, when they expected them to be higher. 6104. (Lord Clarendon.) You say it would not be possible for you to give a tabulated report of the work done in your pupil room. That difficulty does not exist with respect to the upper school, what consti- tutes it in the lower ? — Do you mean of the work done in pupil-room ? 6105. Yes ? — I do not know that there is any par- ticular difficulty, except that I give the whole of my time ; I am all day in the pupil-room or at work with them. 6106. It is not the amount of work they do, but the amount the tutors do, how it is divided. We have had a tabulated statement as to the upper school ; are not your pupils lower school boys ? — No. I have sent you the work of the lower school. 6107. (Lord L^ijttel ton.) Have you any lower school boys in your house ? — I have one. 6108. (L^ord Clarendon.) He is your private pupil ? — Yes, but I do not teach him. 6109. Have j'ou pupils other than those boarding in your house ? — I am not allowed to take others. 6110. (Lord L^ytlelton.) That is an ancient rule, is it not ? — Yes. 6111. (Mr. Thompson.) Could you not give a return like Mr. Durnford's ? — I could give that sort of thing. 6112. (Lord Clarendon.) That is what we want ? — I will prepare it. 6113. (Mr. Vaughan.) Now we are on that subject would you permit me to make the same observation with regard to the class work of the lower school; you have not included it in table C, only in D. For the sake of uniformity it would be very desirable ?— If you wish it I will send it to you. 6114. (Lord Lyttelton.) Do you apprehend that with respect to having time enough to attend to the boys in his house, the lower master is as well off as an assis- tant master. An assistant master in the upper school has a certain number of boys in his house, and the Head Master of the lower school has also a certain number. Do you think that the Head Master of the lower school, with his present numbers, has as much time to give to his private pupils as an assistant master in the upper school has ? — Quite the same, because there are the four hours of school which he has ; in other respects it is quite the same. 6115. Is there any reason why the lower master is not allowed to have private pupils, except these boarders ? — I suppose, originally, it was not con- sidered etiquette ibr him to do it ; and tutors used to have 80 or 90 pupils. When the late Provost was an assistant master he had as many as 80 pupils, and it was to make up to the lower master for that. 6116. How do you mean to make up to the lower master ? — The lower master, generally, was the senior assistant or something of that sort, then he had to give up perhaps 60 pupils. 6117. When did he give them up ? — When he ceased to be an assistant, and became lower master. PUBLIC SCHOOLS COMMISSION : — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 213 6118. (Lord Clarendon.) That is assuming lie had such a large numbt'i' ? — I am speaking of old times. till!). {Lord Li/tfc/ton.) Do you mean he liud GO pupils ill his house ? — No, out of liis house. 6120. Wliy was he restricted ? why was he not allowed to have any number of pupils out of the house ? — I do not know why. 6121. Do you know when it took place ? — No, but a very considerable time ago. 6122. Do you suppose tliat it m.ny be some question of dignity ? — I should think it originated in that. 612li. {Mr. Ticish'loii.) In the uiiper form of the lower school the boys, for translation, translate eight verses of Greek Testament for a lesson, eight lines of Excerpta Graca with grammar, aud 18 lines of Ovid's Epistles. At what age do you think that boys of average abilities, who begiu well tauglit, ought to be able to go through those lessons ? — Boj's of 10 can do them, but then they are good boys, 11 and 12 are about the average. I should say, at the same time, that we have increased it ; the work is different from what it was. 6124. I observe tliat of 28 boys in the form who go through those lessons 19 are above 14 years of age ? — You must remember that those are all dull boys, and veiy backward boys. 612.3. Then in fact in the Iiighest form of the lower school the greatest number are either dull bo3's or have been ill taught ? — You must remember that boys come much later to school than they used to. 6126. But in reference to your previous answer, would it not be true that out of 28 boys 19 would either be dull boys or boys who had been inadequately taught ? — At this particular time it would be so, or boys who had not begun learning sufficiently early, which is quite another thing. 6127. Do you think that it would be an advantage to a boy to be placed in the lower scliool with so many of a class of 28, who were either dull or had been inadequately taught, or who had begun too late ? — They are all equally advanced because they have been put there, by examination. 6128. As I understand you the majority of these boys are of an age beyond what j'ou could fairly require from boys of average ability, who are pro- perly taught, that the work of these boys ought really to be performed by boys of average aljility, say between 11 and 13? — The work they do would bo done by boys between 11 and 13 if they began suf- ficiently early. Perhaps this would answer your question, that if a boy began in the lower school at the usual age he would reach this part of the school at about 11 or 12. 6129. As a matter of fact I find that there are only three boys in the form under 12 years of age ? — Yes. 6130. As a matter of fact the greater number of these boys ought not, if they had been properly taught and if they had average abilities and had begun early, to be in the form ? — No. 6131. {Mr. Vanghan.) In the lower school as far as I collect from table D, the boys all have regular lessous in history ? — Yes. 6132. English history aloue, is it ? — Yes. 6133. They do not begin classical history ? — No; excepting so far as occurs in the classical lessons. 6134. Are you aware whether in the upper school history is taught at all in the same systematic way ? — I think not, it seems to be very irregularly tauglit as far as I see. 6135. Is it English history or classical history in the upper school ? — I think it is classical history. 6136. Are 3'ou aware whether classical history is taught in some forms and not in others ? — It is taught in the fourth form. 6137. But not in the forms above ? — Occasionally, but very rarely iu the remove. 6138. Is it taught at all in the fifth form ? — No, it is not taught. 6139. They have a certain allotted portion which they must get up ? — At certain periods, twice in the year, during holidays, and also before collections. 6140. Is there a certain portion to be got up in the half year, and also a certain portion in the holidays ? — Before the end of the half year. Why I guarded my answer was, that I did not know whether you meant it was taught at the beginning of the school time and required at the end. 6141. Is there a part set at the beginning of the school time and required at the end, and is there another part set at the beginning of the holidays aud required at the end of the holidaj's ? — There is a part set at the beginning of the holidays wdiicli is required at the end, and there is a part set generally some short time before the end, which is re(iuired in collections. 6142. Do you know wliether those parts of history are set uniformly in the fifth form ? — Those which arc done in the holidays are in a regular cycle through a certain portion of the fifth form, not the uj)per portion. 6143. And through the sixth form? — No; the sixth form have a period set for collections. 6144. Do you know what is the reason for setting more in the lower part of the fifth form than in the upper part, and in the sixth form ? — It is a substitute for holiday task ; there is what is called a holiday task at Easter and Christmas. 6I4o. Throngliout the school ? — Throughout the fifth form. Some few years ago that was changed, it was thought more advisalile for the lower part to have history, retaining the composition iu the upper part. 6146. Does that embrace only classical history ? — It is entirely modern history. 6147. Is tliere any part of school in which classical history is systematically taught? — It is required with all lessons. 6148. Do you mean that historical questions are asked in their lessons ? — Yes, for collections classi- cal history is given as well as modern history. It is left very much to the discretion of the master. 6149. Do you know how long those subjects have been introduced into Eton as regular subjects for examination ? — As far back as 1843 or 1844, certainly it was done, because I have had to examine iu it my- self as far back as that. 61 oO. Will you have the goodness to look at the returns ; under the column of No. 6, table C, you observe there is a return of " none " in the sixth form, and in the second division, part of upper fifth form, there is no history set down in the proper column, but some historical works are mentioned merely as books of reference ? — It must be an omis- sion of the Head Master's. The two first divisions about three weeks before collections have a portion of Ilallam's Constitutional History or a portion of Merivale or Grote, as the case may be, given them to get up, and they have a paper iu it set them in collections ; that I know to have been the caso all the time I was the senior assistant and since. 6151. Again, in the divisions 14, 15, 16, and 17 of page 6, there is " none " under the same column, is that an omission ? — That is fourth form. There is repetition done in each of these divisions. 6152. Then, if you look to the two fomis, tho remove and fourth form, they are ditferently re- turned. One states that the Eton Compendium of Geography and Smith's History of Greece to tho Macedonian period, and Outlines of Astronomy are learnt, while in the form below there is a return of " none," I suppose that is a mistake ? — Do you mean by that repetition lessons ? 6153. No ; it is not strictly repetition ; repetition is, I consider, verbal repetition. This is matter com- mitted to memory, but not in the words of the -vvriter. In the one return it appears to have been understood, and not in tlie other. The Eton Compendium, Smith's History, and Outlines of Astronomy are put in co- lumn 6 ? — They should not be there. 6154. It is a mistake, is it not ? — Yes. I had nothing to do with any but the drawing up of my own, Dd 3 ETON. Urn. W. A. Carter. 15 July 18G2. 2U PUBLIC SCHOOLS COilillSSIOX :— MI-VL'TES OF EYIDE.VCa ETtiX. tw G15o. {Lord Clarendon.) The communications be- •eeu the lower master and the Provost are direct, Itce are tliev not ? I mean they do not pass through the ir. A. Carter. Head Master ?— No, except that in the appointment of an ax'^i.-tant I should speak to the Head Master IS July 1862. ,^^,j.^_.p J ^j^^].^, to ti,g l>,.ovost. 6156- That would be with reference to the proba- bility of an assistant master passing from the lowei to the upper school?— No, simply that before ap- ])ointing an assistant I must speak to the Head Master .•ind get^liis sanction, and I consider that I should do that before I went to the Provost. 61-37. {Lord Lyttdtoii.) You are bound to have the Head Master's sanction ? — Yes. 61.58. {Lord Clarendon.) But in .ill other matters, such as administration, discipline, or changes of system, oredilious of books, you would comnumicatc with the Provost direct ? — Yes. 61.39. Do you consider that those relations between the Provost and the lower master are beneficial ? — I should be very sorry to see them entu-ely broken. 6160. How far do you think they are beneficiiil ? — I think it is a useful thing for us to h.ave a check ■which is not very severely or partially exercised. 6161. There is not more interference on the part of the Provost, as far as your experience goe.9, than is wholesome ? — I really think the idea has beeu_ very much exaggerated among our own body. I judge simply from having been lower master for five years,* .nnd also from having been on very intimate terms with the late Head Master, .and I know pretty -well the occasions on which he had to speak to the Provost, and I think there were very fev.- upon which lie met •with any refusal. 6162. Some instances hr.ve been given us in which it has been supposed that the Provost's interference has been not altogether useful?— Of course, that might arise. 6163. Do you not Ihirk this state of things might exist, that an uuwilliugness on the part of the Provost to consent to chiinges or reforms would prevent the lower master from suggesting things ? — I think that is quite possible, but at the same time, I think a check is useful. 6164. Do j'ou not think that the Head Master who had during a period of year^ considered that the school was incap.able of improvement, and who had consequently resisted any changes in it, would be likely to continue in the same views and insist upon the same abstinence from change when he became Provost ? — To give you an instance to the contrar}-, when Dr. Hawtrey became Head ^Master, lie altered the whole system of the school. It was in the time of Provost Goodall. The system had been .adopted by Provost Goodall, and again adopted by Dr. Keate. When Dr. Hawtrey came he broke up all the divisions, which then were very large, into small classes of the number of from 40 to oO. It was a fundamental change, as far as the work of the school goes, and that was assented to by Provost Goodall at once. There wasafund.ainental ch.ange in the whole system of the school teaching, and that was not opposed by the Provost in the least. I think that interference in minute points is not desirsible, but I think that some general check is a good thing. 616.3. This right of interference in minu*e points is exercised in fact ? — It really is not, at least very little. I have altered almost every book in the lower school. I merely had to name it to the Provost ; ho begged to see the book ; I showed it to him, and told him my reasons why I wished the change ; and he assented to it. 616G. Have you altered the school grammar ? Ko, I wisli we had. There is one preparing at present, which I hope will be ready before long. . 6167. A grammar ? — A Latin grammar. 6168. Do you think, if Dr. Arnold's idea were acted upon, that there should be a meeting for the purpose of making an international grammiir, as it were, it would be a good plan ? — Quite so. There was such a meeting of the Head blasters at Christmas, I was not present. That wish was TCry strongly expressed, and the question discussed. 6169. Is it likely to be attended with any result. I think it is too biid that you should not have a better grammar ? — It is so. I believe the best grammar at present is Dr. Kennedy's. 6170. {Lord Lytlelton.) You state that you do not wish to see the controlling power of the Provost wholli/ abolished. In what way would you modify it. You imi)lied that you would wish some modification ? I .should not wish that in all slight alterations in the school work or anything of that kind, but that in any great alteration of the system the Provost shoult( be consulted. 6171. Do you think that it would be possible to dr.aw the line ? — I think it would be very difficult. I really do not see the evil arising from it, though I know some persons do. 6172. {Lord Clarendon.) Power being possessed, its abuse is assumed ? — I think so. I mentioned as a fact that I luave never been refused. Certainly one point was introducing Dr. Kennedy's books, which was a thing that Provost Hawtrey would not be likely to approve of. 6173. Is it your practice to consult your assistant masters collectively or individually ? — Not col- lectively ; but I never have made .any change what- ever without consulting, at any rate, those two who are the speci.al lower school assistants, 6174. {Lord I^yttelton.) You have no system of meeting them at cliambers ? — No, none. 6175. {Lord Clarendon.) I see that arithmetic in the lower school is made to bear the same proportion to the classical work as mathematics do in the upjicr school — that i.s, one-fifth ? — Yes, but there is the addition of writing. 6176. On question 15 will you have the goodness to give us your views. We certainly have heard that much that is done by the tutor is deemed un- necessaiy and undesirable with respect to the con- struing, and we have he.ard that time is unnecessarily expended on that. Would you come to a contrary conclusion ? — I .should. It is very irksome, and it is one of the fu'st things a m.aster would be glad to throw over. It is a thing in which one ought to be suspicious of oneself. 6177. Do you not think that there is too much time given to it ? — I do not think so. 6178. With your boys do you look foi- a literal construction, or a liberal though con-ect construc- tion ? — I look upon it, that in construing j'ou have to see that a boy has thoroughly learnt his lesson, and you give him such ordinary information, either see that he acquires it or give it to him, for taking the lesson into school ; as, for instance, any historical .allusion there might be in the lesson you would ask him on that subject, and if he did not know it you would either tell him where to find it, or give it to him as you thought desirable. 6179. At these construing lessons do the boys parse ? — They only parse here and there. In read- ing a pass.age of Homer, if you come to a word un- usual in form or anything else, you would ask a boy what that was, and require that he should know it, 6180. {Lord Lyttelton.) The work is all done double, and exercises are all looked over double ? — Yes. 6181. Do you attach importance to that ? — ^Yes. 6182. You think it tends to improve the exercises ? — I think so. 6183. It does not follow, as it seems to me, thf.t if the construing was done away with the intercourse between master and pupils would necessarily be less ; because it would be obvious if the construing was done aw.ay with you might substitute something foe it ? — You must have something which would take up the time, 6184. It might be equally compulsory, and equally tend to the distinctions .and rewards of the school ? — I do not think you would find that would be the result. PUBLIC SCHOOLS COMMISSION : — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 21; 61 8d. Somethlnjr miglit be sulistitiitcd equally com- pulsory and iimiortaut ? — No; j'ou would ^ud in point vt' time that tliat could not be arraujrcd, be- cause 3"0« have your ^vllole iil'lli form doing the same work, which brings them altogether with you. Then if you bring them up into private business you would have them distinct, j-ou Avould see much less of them. ()18(). Have you considered the point wliether all the fifth form sliould do the same work ? — I think it is wrong, decidedly ; I think clearly that about the fii'lli form work there is something wrong. 6187. {Mr. VuMff/tfii/.) You have said that that kind of tutorial work has been diminished very much in quite the upper forms. We liave heard the same account from others as to the fact, but you say the result here has not been quite satisfactory ? — I do not lliink the lessons are so well done as they would be if they were construed. At the same time one does not see so much of the boys. 6188. To change the mode of expression a little, do you not think that although the lessons maj' not be so well done, yet the boys may learn as niucli under the one S3'stein as under the other ? — I think not. 6189. Is there any thought of returning to the old system, do you know, with the upper divisions ? — It would be impossible ; there is no time for it, and that is the reason why it is not done. 6190. Do you think, if time permitted it, it would be an improvement ? — Tlie work would be better done. 6191. Generally speaking, would it be an improve- ment in the education of the l>oys ? — I think so. 6192. I sujipose you would admit that the mere manner in which the work is done before the master of the fiirm furnishes no perfect test as to the benefit of the work to the Iioys themselves who do it ? — It is some test, I thiids. 6193. For instance, supposing that one boy did it well who had been construed to, and another boy did it inditferentl}', who had worked it all up by grammar and lexicon, the one who had done it imper- fectly would liave derived great advantage, while the other boy who to all appearance had done it i)erfectly would have derived no advantage at all ? — Quite so. 6194. Do you or do you not think that tlie system of construing at all tends to substitute the perfection of appearance for the thoroughness of the work ? — Not at all, if the tutiu'does his work well. 6195. {Lord J.ijttclton.) Have j'ou prepared any details on the point you have just mentioned, as to the alteration which you would make in the fifth form work. Do you think an alteration in the arrange- ment of the lessons and a general revision of it is desirable ? — I think there is one thing in th(! fifth form which is very remarkable ; that is, what we c:dl tJie upper division trials ; after a boy has passed them, after lie has been two years in the fifth form, his work should be changed. Boys get tired of the same books and the same work. Since the introduction of Greek play at a certain part more advanced, they have taken very much more interest in that. They want change. 6196. Would you think ,iny further .alteration re- quisite in the fifth form work ? — I think -so. I do not think the lower part of the fifth form liave enough to do. 6197. Would you introduce more new books than they arc now reading ? — I should be for retaining the old books up to these middle division trials, having a Greek play as there is now, but I would make the Greek play extend over the whole fifth form. 6198. Is that the only change you would make? — It is a subject which I have not considered sufficiently to give you a scheme ; but that seems to be a clear line where you ought to ha^c a break. 6199. {Lord Clarendon.) The lower school do not go to chapel, do they ? — They, go to service ; they do not go to the college chapel, but they have a service at the same time. They go to a small chapel, which there is, on a week day, and they go to the parish church at Eton on the Sunday. 6200. You do not think there is a disadvantage in the boys being deprived of going to the college chapel ? — No, I think (hey attend just as well, or perhaps from being a smaller number, better. 6201. Are they required to go to church on holi- days and half-holidays ? — Yes, just the same as the upper school. They go exactly at the same time. 6202. {L^ord L;/ttcUon.) It seems rather a loss to them ; they lose all the associations of the pl.ace ? — But as soon as they get into the upper school they get that. 6203. {Lord Clarendon.) As to the confirmation, that is hardly applicable? — I merely returned that as tutor. 6204. But as tutor, I suppose you prepare the boys in your house for confirmation ? — Yes. ()20.j. What is ju'ecisely the religious instruction which is given to the boys in the lower school ? — They read the Bible three mornings in the week for half an hour. 6205. In class ? — In class. On Sundays they have a school, at which they have the Gospel, Epistles, and Collects explained, and the Church Catechism is said. 6207. Are they examined in the Church Catechism? — Yes, and they are questioned on it, and it is explained to them. On Monday morning the whole lesson is divinity, when they read in the Gospels. They read the Old Testament on Wednesdaj- and Friday morn- ing, and the New Testament on Jloiiday morning. 6208. Do they read the Old Testament continuously, or are there chapters selected ? — That is left to tho discretion of the master, but I fi.x the portions that are to be read in a certain jiart ; that is to say, that the lower part take the Pentiiteuch ; then the next take Joshua and Judges, and so go on, to arrange that they shall in theory read' through all the histo- rical parts, not the Proi)hets, of course, because that would be clearly bej'oud them, but only the historical parts ; and the omission of certain parts is, of course, left with the Head JIaster. 6209. What examination have they in Scripture ? — A divinity paiier always forms a portion of their examination, and also in collections. 6210. That is twice a year ? — For the lower school generally twice a year, sometimes three times a year. 6211. Is it the result of your observations that tho divinity instruction has been satisfactory ? — I think so. It varies very much, depending on what the boy's teaching at home is. 6212. Whether he comes well prepared, do you mean ? — Whether it is a thing which is made much of at home or not. You will here and there find a boy who comes almost entirely ignorant of the Bible, and in another case you will find a boy who comes knowing it fairly well. 6213. Do you make it a special object with your assistant masters to inspire the boys, as far as they can, with a religious feeling and a sense of their respoiisilnlities, and to try to give them a reverential feeling from the first ? — That rests with the tutor, I think, rather more than with the master in school. It is there that the tutor's main use comes in. 6214. But, as far as you know, superintending the whole of the lower school, and, of course, being interested in their moral training, is that duty suc- cessfully jierformed by the tutors ? — Yes, indeed, I think it is. 6215. Do you believe that these boys are encouraged or enjoined to the use of private prayer ? — I can only speak for myself; that is a subject which I never touch upon in school. 6216. I was addressing myself to you as the head of the lower school, and therefore as interested in that very important part of the education of very young boys — the early instilling into them of a religious feeling, and, above all, a sense of their moral respon- sibility ? — I should have little doubt that every tutor did ; I should feel that he would not be fullilling his duty if he did not ; but I have not asked any tutor whether he has done it or not, Dd 4 ETOM. liev. W. A. Ciir'cr, 15 July ISI-.-). 216 ■PUBLIC SCHOOLS COMMISSION: — MIKUTES OF EVIDENCE. ETON. Rev. ir. A. Carter. 15 July 1862. 6217. Each of the boys in Mr. Hawtrey's house, I believe, has a single room ? — Yes. 6218. You do not know whether Mr. Ilawtrey, without milking it compulsory, makes it a point that cacli of these boys says private prayers ? — I have not the slightest doubt in my own mind that he sees it is done, but not by compulsion ; that if he observed a boy did not do it he would speak to him. 6219. How is that with respect to the boys in your own house, particularly as to private prayers? — In going to a boy's room at night before he is going to bed,liere and there you drop in one night, on one boy saying his prayers, and another night on another boy. 6220. You believe it is the general practice ? — Yes, and the contrary is the exception. 6221. And that a boy would be rather looked up to than laughed at for praying privately ? — There would be very few boys who, in the presence of others, would kneel down ; they have all single rooms. 6222. You think not many boys would do so in the presence of others ? — I tliink few, except brothers, would ; I think it would be a trial to a boy. 6223. Do you consider, as for as you know, — I am talking of the upper school, — that the Sunday is pro- perly observed, as you say, without any pharisaical demonstration, that there is a proper and decorous distinction made between Sunday and other days ? — Quite so. 6224. With respect to punishments in the lower school, you would say it is quite on the same principle and the same usage in the lower school as in the upper school ? — I think so, quite. There would be fewer punishments because it is a great trouble to some of those small lioys to write. They would have much shorter punishments. 6225. If a boy does very ill, or commits any offence worthy of severe punishment, he would be sent up to you ? — Yes. 6226. Your assistants are not empowered to inflict corporal punishment themselves ? — No. 6227. Has the S3'stem of corporal punishment diminished much? — Most considerably. 6228. Ilow often do you flog ? — Often a week or a fortnight goes without any boy being flogged. 6229. For how many boys ? — There are now 93 or 94. 6230. {Lord Lyttclton.) I tliought you said 130 boj's ? — That was before the removes were taken. 6231. {Lord Clarendon.) Then, perhaps, it would not apply ? — As it happens it did apply. 6232. Ten or 20 years ago it would be very much more than that, would it not ? — Very much more, it is very much on the decrease. 6233. That is to say, so many more offences were thought to require that severe punishment than are now ? — Yes, and besides that there has been a very useful check in the tutor being always made aware, and, in fact, being consulted before aboy is complained of. 6234. Was not that the ease in former years ? — Ko, it has been introduced within the last few years. The consequence is, that if a boy is going on well the tutor may always intercede for him, and with a word of advice he can do what in old times would have been done by flogging. 6235. That must much increase the influence of the tutor ? — Yes. 6236. What do you consider has been the practical moral result of this diminution in the flogging ? , Extremely good. 6237. I take it, it is that the boy's honour and good sense, his own interest, are more appealed to than used.to be the case ? — Yes, I do not appeal to honour with a boy, one does not like to put anything to a boy's honour. I think perliaps I misunderstood you ; you do not mean appealing to a boy's honour further than that he ought to look to the thing as a disgrace? 6238. Yes ? — In that point it is certainly. 6239. I should conceive that nothing could be more useful, or that you could begin too early to appeal to a boy's lionour ? — Yes, I was taking it in another sense, there is another technical sense of honour which mislead me. 6240. {Mr. Vaugha7i.) I think you alluded in your evidence to a custom that has grown up at Eton of teaching French by the assistant masters ? — No, it has never been done. 6241. The assistant masters in pupil-room ? — Yes ; that is simply a private matter, not in school. 6242. You think that it has failed ' — I am speaking of it not in the pupil room but in school. 6243. {Lord Lyttelton.) You say, "Attempts have " been made elsewhere ;" in other schools you mean? — Yes. 6244. {Mr. Vaiighan.) With regard to the tutorial instruction in French at Eton, do you think that has failed ? — We have had no means of judging. 6245. Do you not iu your written answers allude to certain causes of failure in schools where the assistant masters have taught French ? — Yes, 6246. Do not those causes of failure in your opinion apply to teaching by tutors ? — I think so. You mean as between school and pupil-room ? 6247. Would they fipply to pupil-room as well as to school ? — I think so. 6248. {Lord Clarendon.) You say that French must be taught by Frenchmen ? — It had best be taught by Frenchmen perhaps. 6249. Has there ever been an attempt made by the authorities of Eton to find an Englishman who, un- der peculiar circumstances, having been educated or having lived for a long time abroad, has a pure French accent and who would be able to teach French cor- rectly, and at the same time maintain authority among the boys ; has there ever been any attempt of the kind ? — I think none. The man you are sup- posing would be almost a Frenchman. 6250. If he speaks English like an Englishman there would not be that ridicule attaching to him which is subversive of order ? — .There are very few men of that kind I think to be found. 6251. Have they ever been sought for. Has there ever been a bona fide .attempt to teach French properly at Eton ? — Do you mean generally through* out the school ? 6252. Yes ? — No, certainly not. 6253. {Lord Lyitclton.) Do you think the great number of the boys makes it a diflBculty? — You must have such a large staft'. 6254. Do you think if you had a school of half the size you would undertake it with more hope of success than with such a large school ? — 'I think so. 6255. {Lord Clarendon.) There is only one more question which I would ask, which is with respect to the emoluments. I think there was nothing said here about leaving presents ; that I think is the custom with the lower master the same as it is with the master of the upper school ?-=-The lower master receives no presents from boys going out of the lower school. 6256. Does the lower master receive no presents like the Head Master ? — No ; only as tutor. 6257. That is the same as all the other pupils ? —Yes. 6258. {Sir S. Northcote.) With regard to teaching French I gather your opinion to be that it should be made compulsory in the lower part of the school ? — I think so. 6259. By the lower part of the school you mean the upper school up to the fifth form ? — Yes. 6260. You think if that were done it would pro* bably be continued by the great majority ?— .Yes ; it might then branch out. The vritaess withdi-ew. PUBLIC SCHOOLS COMMISSION : — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE, 217 The Rev. S. T. Hawtrey. M.A., examined. 6261. {Lord Clarrndon.) I believe, Mr. Ilawtrej', you are iiiatheniatical assistant master at Eton ? — I am. 6202. How long have you been so ? — Since the year 1851, which was the time when mathematics were first niaile part of the school business. 6263. Up to that time mathematics can hardly be said to have been taught, either systematically or as ol)ligatory, at Eton ? — No. 6264. Would you say that before 1851 mathematics were tauglit at all at Eton ? — Yes, but as French is now. The boys whose parents wished them to learn attended, and those whose parents did not wish them to learn did not attend. It was voluntary on the part of parents. 6265. But the numbers were small, were they not? — No ; the numbers were very fair ; I should think there were 200. 6266. Who learnt mathematics? — Yes. 6267. Taught by whom ; by Mr. Hexter ? — No, I have been there since the year 1836. 6268. You had a class ? — Yes, of boys whose parents wished them to learn. 6269. How long have you been there altogether ? —From 1836. 6270. And you came there, then, as an assistant mathematical master ? — No ; I was there as a private tutor on the spot ; and as I mentioned in my written answers, when IMr. Girdleslone, who was my pre- decessor, resigned, and Mr. Boteler, another Eton man, declined the appointment, then it was offered to me. The appointment was a permission to teach a certain number of boys, about the first 30 in the school. 6271. Was it then it was made obligatory? — No, it was not made obligatory till 1851. It became incorporated then as part of the school business. 6272. Then at that time Mr. Hexter was the arith- metic master ? — Ye.-<, and professed to teach mathe- matics. He was origin.all)' styled, I believe, teacher of writing and arithmetic ; mathematics was after- wards added. Whether he did teach anything beyond arithmetic I do not know, but he stood oii the list as teacliing writing, arithmetic, and matiiematics. 6273. Therefore you do not know what branches of mathematics he taught ? — No ; I think it really amounted only to writing and arithmetic. 6274. Was he capable of teaching mathematics at the time that this title of mathematical master was assumed ? — I do not know ; it was before my time ; I could not say one way or another. I have heard it reported that he went away for a little while, and came back as matliematical master. 6275. You were mathematical master, then ? — No, this took place before my time. 6276. You were mathematical master at the same time as Mr. Hexter, -were you not ? — Mr. Hexter, I believe, for a very long time had been holding that position, and in 1836 I was appointed. 6277. But you were there at the same time as Mr. Hexter, because'he retired on an agreement with you ? — Yes ; but he was then an old man. I do not know much about him. He had been there for a very long time. I came and paid him an annuity, and then he retired altogether. 6278. In short, you were not allowed to enter on your duties as a mathematical master until you had agreed to pay Mr. Hexter an annuity for not teach- ing mathematics ? — Let me explain. I was allowed to take the first 30 boys in the school, and besides them any boys that Mr. Hexter asserted had attended his class and were competent to come to me, but unless they had a certificate to this effect fiom Mr. Hexter I was not allowed to teach any boys but the Head Master's division. I think it was three or four years afterwards that, with the Provost's consent, I paid this annuity to Mr. Hexter, and then he retired altogether ; and I might have boys from any part of the school whose parents wished them to learn. 1. 6279. It was in 1832, was it not, that the school authorities discovered that it was for the interest of the school that Mr. Hexter should retire ? — I think it w.as about 1840. 6280. Was it from his deficiency in teaching arith- metic or his incapacity to teach mathematics when he had assumed the title of mathematical teacher ? I think that there was a great cry among parents who objected to their boys not being allowed to come to me at once without going to Mr. Hexter. 6281. The boys were simply learning arithmetic, I suppose, of Mr. Hexter, as far as you know ? — As far as I know. 6282. And the parents who desired that their boj's should come to you desired that they of course should learn arithmetic as well as mathematics ? — Yes. 6283. But that they should commence mathematics with you ? — I suppose so. 6284. Do you suppose it was the remonstrances of the parents that opened the eyes of the school autho- rities to the incapacity of Mr. Hexter, or was it their own inquiries? — I was young at Eton then, and I should not like to give an opinion. I should think it was both motives. I think I have heard some of the tutors say that they considered it an evil that their boys could not come to me without going to Mr. Hexter, or having a certificate from him. 6285. In short, both the parents aud the school authorities were of opinion that Mr. Hexter was not beneficial to the school ? — I think so. 6286. And in consequence of that they decreed that you sheuld give hitn 200/. a year ? — Yes. 6287. Tlie deed by which you bought out Mr. Hexter had the sanction of the Provost aud Fellows ? — Yes ; this is, I believe, the customary plan in order to facilitate the retirement of a master when he is getting past work. Mr. Hexter had given 100/. a year to his predecessor, on his resignation. 6288. You have, with the consent of the College, built a mathematical school, which we saw the other day ? — Yes. 6289. It is exceedingly well adapted for the pur- pose for which it was lauilt. May I ask on what terms you built that theatre, as one of the masters called it ? — A lease of 40 years, with a recommenda- tion to their successors to renew at the expiration of 14 years, without paying further fine, which was represented to me as tantamount to a lease of 54 years. 6290. It is college ground on which you have built it ?— Yes. 6291. You say, " without a further fine," did you pay any fine for building that ? — The w.ay the college leases are managed, I think, is that every 14 years there is a renewal on paying a fine, but if they renew at the end of the first 14 years without any fine at all, it is really tantamount to a lease of 54 years. Then, at the end of the second 14 years, if they choose to prolong the lease, I shall have to pay the fine. 6292. When the College leased you the ground on which your building was erected, had you to pay any bonus ? — I pay a ground rent of 20/. a year. 6293. Is that all the rent you pay for it ? — That is all the rent I pay for it. There is a small garden, which is not built upon. 6294. The whole which you pay is 20/. a year ? — Accurately, it is 25/. ground rent that I pay, but there is a small garden attached which lets at 51. a year. 6295. And there is an understanding that no fine will be levied upon you on renewal of this lease a:t the expiration of the first 14 years ? — Yes. The first 14 years has passed. I have applied for the renewaJ, but have not yet had an answer. 6296. You have the lease for how long ? — I have the lease for 40 years. At the end of the first 14 years I applied to the College for a prolongation, according to the recommendation of their predeces- sors, of the lease for 14 years without payment of fine. Ee ETON. Itev. S. T. Uawtrei/ 15 July 1862 218 PUBLIC SCHOOLS COMMISSION :—JIIXUTES OF EVIDENCE, S. T. Hawtrey. ETOTJ. 6297. And to that you have had no answer ? — No. 6298. {Mr. Thompson.) How many years have expired since you applied ? — About four years. It is some years since the expiration of the 14 years, about 15 July 1862. four or five years. 6299. The lease has run 18 years ?— Yes ; I think the lease dates from 1843, so it is nearly 20 years. 6300. {Lord Clarendon.) You have apjilied to renew it for 14 years ?-Yes, but have received uo answer. 6301. How much time has elapsed since you made the application ?— About four years, I think. 6302. Four years since you applied to the College? —Yes. 6303. And the answer has not arrived yet ? — Ao. 6304. {Mr. Thompson.) You pay 20/. a year ground rent ? — Yes. 6305. You are liable to a periodical fine ? — If tliey choose to renew the lease. 6306. {Mr. Twishton.) Do you regard their silence as a proof that they do not intend to levy the fine ? I really cannot exactly say whether they mean to accede to the recommendation of their predecessors or not ; I am not competent to say. I simply have not heard. 6307. {Lord Clarendon.) The predecessors are many of themselves in person ? — Some are. I quote the words of the bursar in his letter to me, "We have " granted you a lease of 40 years, with a recommenda- " tion to our successors to renew at the expiration of " the first 14 years, without payment of fiue." They are not competent to give more than 40 years leases, and they get over the difficulty in that way. 6308. Is it the same gentleman who is bursar now who wrote you that letter ? — No, the present Vice-Provost was bursar then. 6309. Do you consider then that you have an in- terest in that building, and that you can dispose of it to any person you like ? — I am bound by the terms of the lease that no use shall be made of the building, except for teaching matliematics. 6310. Could you select 3'our own successor ? — No. Things have kept on altering since then. I was at that time hardly more than extra master, and was not incorporated as one of the body. 6311. {Mr. Thompson.) You were like a private tutor residing in the neighbourhood of Eton ? — I was much in the same position as the French master. My name was in the list as mathematical master. Those boys whose parents wished them to learn of me might do so, and my bills were taken in by tutors and dames. 6312. {Lord Clarendon.) Supposing you were to wish to retire now from the position you hold, and to dispose of your interest in the building to some body whom you believed would worthily succeed you as mathematical master, should you consider yourself authorized to do it ? — I could not do that. 6313. What would interfere ? The terms of your lease, or what ? — Simply I have no power of appoint- ing anybody. 6314. {Lord LyttcUon.) Could you sublet ?— No. 6315. Are you restrained from subletting? — Practically. 6316. Because, you mean, it would not answer for anj'body who was not mathematical master ? — Yes. 6317. {Lord Claretidon.) Supposing you wished to retire, and that not being able to appoint your suc- cessor, that the Provost and Fellows did appoint your successor, and that that successor was not prepared to reimburse you for your outlay on tlie buildings, how should you proceed then ? — I have nothing to do but to submit. I am quite in the power of the Provost and Fellows. 6318. {Sir S. Norlhcofe.) That you understood to be the case from the first, you knew that you were at their mercy to some extent ?— I think I must say so, but my position is altered in the meantime, through my being made one of the masters of the school. 6319. {Lord Lijltelton.) What alteration has been made that affects your pecuniary position ?— I have been made an assistant master of Eton. 6320. What does that do ? — It alters my position in reference to the room : till then I had taught independently in my own room. When mathematics were incorporated into the school work, and 1 was made an assistant master, the College consented that mathematics should be taught in the building which I had erected when I was in ray former position, and sanctioned my building the additional class-rooms that became requisite when the whole school learned mathematics. 6321. I mean, does that give you any security against what I do not suppose would be done, but what I understand the College would have the power of doing ? — I do not think I have any security at all. If the College chose to build other mathematical schools altogether, I believe they could order me and all the assistants to go and teach mathematics in those other schools. I have no remedy but a moral reined}-, the feeling that I had acted under their sanction in what I had done. 6322. (Lord Clarendon.) You built that scliool on trust ? — Yes. 6323. {Mr. Vauyhan.) In fact, did 3-ou build it really on that consideration ? — Certainly I did so with reference to the buildings added in 1851 to meet the wants of the whole school. With regard to the great school room or theatre which was built in 1813, before mathematics w^ere made part of the school business, it was a good investment, as things were then ; for the extra masters had to provide their own school rooms, and if things had remained as they were, I had a moral certainty that my successor would have taken the building off my hands, or paid rent for it. 6324. {Sir S. Xorthcote.) If they were to order the mathematical teaching to be carried on in another building, this building would still be your property ? — Yes ; but it would he valueless. 6325. You might turn it to any other purpose ? — I could not. I am completely in their power. I do not misdoubt them at all, but I am completely in their power. 6326. {Lord Clarendon.) eyes open ? — Yes. 6327. May I ask you to graph 5 ? You there say, " classical divisions in the " separate master ; " that is the system which obtains now, is it not ? — The number of divisions slightly varies. 6328. I do not quite understand the system on which these groups are formed. Will you explain that ? — We will say the Head Master and the senior assistant have each a classical division of between 30 and 40 boys. At 1 1 o'clock on Monday, five o'clock on Wed- nesdaj^ and 11 o'clock on Friday the Head Master and the senior assistant do not go into school, and their 70 or 80 boys come into the mathematical school, to the theatre you allude to, and to the seven class rooms which you saw, — I teach in the lai-go room and (he assistants teach in the class rooms, — and these 80 boys are divided into eight di\isions among the eight masters. 6329. Of ten each ? — Of about ten each. 6330. In separate rooms ? — Yes. Those 80 boys are divided amongst myself and my seven colleagues. 6331. Should j'ou consider that the division into those groups, (being so small, comparativelj', to what the classes are in the rest of the school,) of ten each, is the most convenient division for teaching and learning mathematics ? — I think it is very good. 6332. Do you, as far as you know, judging of the classical classes, draw a distinction between mathe- matics and classics ; that you would not be able to teach as many boys in mathematics as in classics ? — I do not think we could manage to teach so many ; but you will observe that the boys are classed according to their c/iv^x/caZ proficiency, therefore the larger number can naturally go together better for a classical lesson, but those same boys, not being arranged according to their comparative merit or proficiency in muthe- You did that with your lofik at page 118, para- There were then eight fifth form, each under a PUBLIC SCnOOLS COMMISSION :— MINUTES OF EVIDENCK. 219 tna/ics, there is a, greater diversity of proficiency nmoiiLT tlieiii, and therefore wlien they are subdivided among tlie nuitheniatical masters, it is more advisable to separate tlieni into smaller classes, 6333. Do yoii divide the boys into classes according to their mathematical proficiency and according to the desirableness of the boys reading the same subject, or is it with any reference to their classical status in the school ? — 'I'he boys who form the several groups and come together to the mathematical school are about the same age. The two divisions of the Head Master and senior assistant, which form group A, of course coutain the eldest boys in the school, and they are separated into eight portions, according to their matlK'matical ability, and similarly with the other groups. 6334. And that is how these groups are formed ? — Yes. 6335. In each of these groups, of course, the same books are used, and the same branches of mathe- malics are taught ? — Yes. 6336. Is there any change in these classes. Sup- pose you |ilace a boy in a class and he is not able to go on to the higher branches, does he fall into any other class ; from grou[) B, where you find a boy of great power in mathematics, docs he pass into group A ? — You must keep your mind entirely at present on group A. Group A is subdi^■ided into eight different classes, and if it is found better for a bo}' not to be in the first of those subdivisions of group A, he would be put in the second or third division, or if desirable, he would be promoted into a higher subdivision of the group, because group A all come together, being divided into eight different portions ; but group A and group B come at different times, and there is jio connexion between them. The best boys in group A are in the highest division of group A, the next best in the second division of group A, and so on ; the least advanced boys forming the eighth division of group A. 6337. Suppose you found in group B a boy very superior in trigonometry or conic sections? — He could not come in grou]> A. 6338. Although yon know there is a boy in group A very inferior to group B ? — Still he could not. 6339. (Jir. I'liig/iaii.) You understand the whole division that conies to you as group A ? — Certainly. 6340. Lord Clarendon understands the first divi- sion of group A as group A ; you are taking the whole group A as group A ? — Group A is the two first divisions of the school which come at the same time ; group B is the two next divisions of the school which come at the same time, and are sub- divided when they come, in the same way as group A. 6341. These two groups begin by being distinct, and are kept distinct ? — Yes ; in fact whenever a boy moves up to Mr. Durnford or the Head Master he comes with group A, and the two next masters' divisions form group B. 6342. Lord Clarendon asked whe!her, after group A had been subdivided into eight divisions, a boy who had origii'ally stood in the third of those eight divi- sions, and who by great pi'ogress had qualified him- self to stand in the first of those divisions, was pro- moted into the first of those divisions? — Certainly he ■would be. I ought to say, however, that when boys get near to the top of the school, with the exception of myself and one other assistant, I do not think there is much class-teaching, I think the other masters find they get on better by teaching the boys individually. 6343. {Lord Clarendon.) How fai- in mathematics do you go with your higher boys ? — I think the highest reading that I remember is Todhunter's Analj'tical Geometry. Some boys have read that. 6344. Have you ever taken any boys into the dif- ferential calculus? — Never. 6445. Into conic sections ? — Yes. 6346. (Lord Lyttelton?) What is there between conic sections and analytical geometry ?-:-One passes into the other. 15 July 1862 6347. You mean it is a stage just beyond conic ETON. sections ? — It is the same subject, niaiuly, treated in two different ways. licv ^ 6348. And that is as high as you have gone ? — '^- T.Hawlrcy. Yes ;^ a few have read geometrical conic sections, and still fewer analytical conic sections. 6349. Would the boy who gets the Tomline scholar- ship ordinarily speaking have gone as high as that ? — As high as geometrical conic sections. 6350. (Lord Clarendon.) How many boys proceed to these higher branches ? — Very few ; very few to conic sections. 6351. What would you say is the stand point of the average number of boys in general ; how fiir do they go ? — The average number of boys do not do more than arithmetic, Euclid, and algebra. 6352. {L^ord Lyttelton.) How far in algebra ? — Not beyond Colenso's first part. 6353. {Lord Clarendon.) Do you take the whole of Colenso's book ? — Yes. 6354. {Lord Lyttelton.) Do you go to quadratic equations ? — Yes. 6355. Is that about as far as a boy in the sixth form would go in mathematics ? — I should say further than that. I should say that a considerable number in the sixth form will h.ave read very fairly the whole of that first p.art, as far even as the biuomijil theorem, and some of them would read trigonometry. 6356. And they have read the first six books of Euclid ? — You might say four books, but not six. 6357. {I^ord Clarendon.) You allude to some boys having done conic sections ? — They are quite the exception. 6358. They are exceptional cases ; boys who have peculiar aptitude or desire o qualify themselves par- ticularly in it ? — Yes. 6359. What is the nature of the examination given in mathematics ? are they examined according to the groups ? — There are two species of exami- nations every school time. First, the examination, or " Trials," which different divisions of the school undergo before " Taking their Removes ;" and, se- condly, at the close of each school time, an examina- tion on the work of the school time then terminating. 6360. Are different groups examined together ? — No ; we cannot bring different groups together ; groups A and B cannot come together. 6361. Because they have read differently ? — No, because the hours for coming to the mathematical school are different. 6362. They might all come to the examination ? — No, but because those boys who are not with us are with their classical masters at the time. 6363. Should you consider it desirable that they should all come together for examination? — It is not necessary ; perhaps occasionally wc might feel it desirable, but it could not be managed. 6364. Would A and B be reading the same sub- jects ? — Hardly the same subjects ; A will be in advance of B as a general rule. 6365. {Mr. Thompson.) There would be exceptions when a boy in group B is superior to any boy in group A, is that possible ? — Very seldoiu. I have never known an instance. 6366. {Sir S. Northcote.) Have you ever known a Tomline got by a boy below group A ? — I think I remember about eight or ten years ago a boy getting the Tomliiie prize while he was in group B. 6367. Being rather a bad scholar but a good ma- thematician ? — A young boy but a good mathematician, a very quick writer and an able boy, though not the most advanced. The examination suited him, and he got the prize. 6368. {Mr. Thompson.) Can you say how many boys, for instance in group A, could do any proposi- tion in the five books of Euclid ? — We do not read the fifth. 6369. I mean the four books, with the sixth? — Do you mean at this moment ? 6370. Yes ; not many perhaps ? — No ; I think a fair nurnber have read four books. Ee 2 220 PUBLIC SCHOOLS COMMISSION :— MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. ETON. liev. S. T. Hawtrey. 15 July 1862. 6371. How mauy in group A ilo you think have read all five books and understood them ? — I sliould say not more than 12. 6372. And how many do you think iu group A can solve a quadratic equation involving two unknown quantities ? — It is hard for me to say that. I never meet any but the boys that are up to me. I might s.ay perhaps half, but I am doubtful of this. 6373. {Lord Clarendon.) Half of group A ?— Yes. 6374. {Mr. Thompson.) Do you think that half that number, a quarter, have made fair progress in trigonometry ? — I think so. 6375. I suppose you find that the attention boys pay to mathematics at Eton is partly dependent on the intentions of their parents, whether they are going to Oxford or Cambridge ?— I think the majority merely look to the matriculation examination. 6376. At Oxford or Cambridge ? — Both. 6377. Is any mathematics set in the matriculation examination ? — Yes. The amount varies in difiereut colleges ; in none, I think, does it exceed a couple of books of Euclid. 6378. Do you think that the throwing open, as it is called, of the classical Tripos at Cambridge has operated at all to the disadvantage of mathematics at Eton ? — No, I do not think we feel it. 6379. You do not think it would be possible for a boy, who before he went to Eton had read, say three or four books of Euclid, and was supposed by his friends to understand them tolerably well, for that boy to be put when he went to Eton into the rule of three, and stick there for a couple of years, owing to his low place in the classical school ? — It is not usual for boys to begin algebra and Euclid till they get into the fifth form. 6380. It is possible that a boy might be kept to arithmetic who had read, say three books of Euclid ? — Yes, it would be possible. 6381. Do you think it salutary on the ■whole to keep him under water so long ? — First of all, I would say that those boys in the Remove, who are able have latterly been takeu a step in advance, and have begun Euclid and algebra. 6382. {Sir S. Northcote.) How long has that been the case ? — It emanated from that paper which was priuted in 1858, saying what the boys would be required to know iu passing through different parts of the school. It is put down there that there is a certain minimum they must know, and that higher questions may be asked. Since that time, when there were any boys who seemed competent in the Remove, they have been put into Euclid or algebra. 6383. {Mr. Thompson.) Was it salutary for a boy to be kept back in his mathematics ? — Certainly not, if he really knew what he professed ; but I have almost invariably found that boys who professed to have read a great deal are very imperfectly grounded. "When they are required to produce their knowledge iu examination it is very diflerent from what a parent or a tutor would imagine. It is one thing to sit by a boy and go from proposition to proposition with him, and it is quite another thing to prepare that boy so that sitting down he shall produce his knowledge iu examination. I find that many of those who have a reputation for having read much are not at all up to what their friends think. In the whole course of my Eton experience, among all the boys I have exa- mined on coming to Eton, I have not found one in a hundred of those who professed to have read Euclid, who were able to write out the fourth pro- position of the first book of Euclid in a way that showed they at all understood the meaning of what they were writing ; and this, too, after being allowed a reasonable time to look over it. I am not speakin"- of the celebrated fifth proposition, but of the fourth" which is the key to Euclid, and of which it is not too much to say, that if it is not understood and appre- ciated, the whole of a boy's Euclid is valueless. 6384. {Lord Clarendon.) But as the whole school passes under you, would you say that the generality of Eton boys leave school fair arithmeticians ? I re.illy think I can say so. There are boys who can be laid hold of as having passed through all our hands and who are able to produce nothing, but I really think that .as far as intelligent arithmetic goes that we rank very fairly with other schools. 6385. We are talking of the average, we are not talking either of the very dull boys, or the very capable boys. What do you consider an average boy can do easily and correctly in arithmetic? — We profess that a boy does not come into the fifth form until he is a fair arithmetician ; th.at is, till he has read fractions, decimals, the rule of three, and its applications, including interest, &c. The rule is, that until he knows this much fairly he is not allowed to go into the fifth form. 6386. {Mr. Thompson.) There must h.ive been a very great improvement at Eton during the last 20 years in that respect ? — Yes, an entire alteration. You can easily imagine that eight men working toge- ther must be very dull, and very forgetful of their duty, unless they produce a result very different from what had hitherto been produced. 6387. {Lord Lyttelton.) Have you adverted iu your answers to what is called extra mathematics ? — Yes, I have. 6388. You have said at the lower part of page 121, that it cannot be said that there is an extra fee for instruction in mathematics, — that is the reguLar in- struction — but there is a system of extra tuition in mathematics for which the boys pay 10 guineas a year -Yes. 6389. How many of the boys in the school pay for extra mathematics ? — I have not the most remote conception. 6390. I should wish to know the number of boys who receive extra instruction in mathematics ? — I could ask each of the mathematical assistants how many boys he has. 6391. Do you suppose there are 100 boys alto- gether in the school who are learnins; extra mathe- matics ? — Possibly ; but I do not know. 6392. Have you ever known any boy get the Tom- line who had not extra mathematics ? — There is not one boy who has got the Tomline who has had extra mathematics. Every one of the boys who has got the Tomline is a boy who has not had any private instruction whatever in mathematics. 6393. Such boys must then have shown considerable aptitude ? — Yes. 6394. Are there many boys who go as high in mathematics as trigonometry or analytical geometry, who have had private tuition ? — There is a fair number who are as high as trigonometry, but very few are reading analytical geometry. Only two or three ; quite exceptional cases. 6495. You do not give extra mathematics to them ? — No ; that is the stipulation. 6396. {Mr. Vaughan.) Are you satisfied with the mode in which the private mathematics are done at Eton — that is to say, are you satisfied with both the mode in which the private instruction is conducted, and with the effect it has upon the boys who take it? — Yes ; I have stated in my answers fully what my feelings are upon the matter. I did object to it at first, because I said it was making it a pecuniary advantage to the assistant masters that the school teaching should not be sufficient. That was my idea at first, but pr.actically I have got to feel difl^erently. 6397. It is asserted in the written evidence of one of the witnesses who g.ave evidence, I think, but who was not a mathematical master, that a proper pro- ficiency in his view was not obtained because the boys have tlie opportunity, .and use it, of shufHing in their private mathematical business ? — I do not catch the meaning of the question. 6398. Perhaps I shall be able to re.id an extract. As to the reason why mathematics generally do not flourish at all in proportion to the classics, he mentions two or three causes, and one of them he says is the habit of "shuffling in the extra work." What is extra work ? — I will explain. Between PUBLIC SCHOOLS COMMISSION : —MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 221 each lesson that we give and the thue the boy comes aoys so well as one who has. 6477. But still they do acquire the art? — They acquire it sometimes. 6478. Were you at a public school ? — No, I was not. 6479. {Lord Clarendon.) You do not say that there is anything that militates against the possibility of an intelligent man, a mathematical master, coming to Eton, and possessing himself of the habits and usages of Eton in the course of a moderate time ? — No ; but at the same time, I think that an Etonian would do it much better. There can be no doubt whatever that an educated man, (taking the general run of educated men.) would adapt himself in time to his position, and be able to perform its duiiea satisfactorily. 6480. There is no extraordinary mysteiy in it, which can only be solved by an Eton man? — No ; for at the present time, six out of eight of the assistants in the matliematieal school are not Etonians. 6481. You would not have selected these six out of the eight, if you had believed that their not being Etonians would have been a serious objection to them ? — It is not I that object or appoint. 6482. They are selected upon your recommenda- tion ? — Yes. 6483. You recommend them to the Provost ?— No ; I recommend them to the Head JMaster. 6484. And inasmucli as they have been appointed, it is plain that the Head iSIaster does not consider it a very objectionable thing to appoint masters who have not been brought up at Eton ? — No ; I think if the Head Master had to decide between two equally eligible candidates, he would give the iireference to the Eton man ; but he would not give the preference to the Eton man if he thought he was an inferior man in point of qualification to the other. 6485. Do you liappen to know if the same rule is observed in respect to the classical masters ? — I think they are all Etonians — all the classical masters. There is a wider field to choose from in the case of the classical masters. 6486. In what way do the lower school come to you, Mr. Hawtrey, in groups ? — No ; the lower school come altogether. They come into the large theatre. 6487. They come together, but they do not always learn together ? — Yes ; the whole of the lower school come at one time. 6488. In the theatre ? — Yes ; in the theatre. 6489. {Lord Lyttelton.) All the 100 are in one class ? — No ; there are seven different masters. 6490. (Lord Clarendon.) Tiiey all come to you ; but althougli they learn together, they have seven masters ; that is to say, each master takes about 15, I suppose, or something of that sort ? — Yes. 6491. Does not that cause a great interruption and inconvenience ? — No ; there are a great many groups, and each group is presided over by one of the masters. There is of course a certain degree of noi§e in consequence of the different masters and boys speaking at once, but it is not so much as to distract attention; each class, as you doubtless observed, is separated from the next by thick curtains. 6492. During that time do the boys in the lower school all do the same thing ? — There are seven different classes according to their state of pro- ficiencj'. 6493. They are in groups ? — Yes ; they are divided among seven assistants. 6494. The same principles are observed with re- spect to the provisions for teaching them diffei'ent subjects according to their proficiency ? — Yes, as in the upper school. 6495. They are taught arithmetic. You do not go further than that ? — No. 6496. How far do you go in arithmetic ? — The best of them have gone through vulgar fractions, but the want of a knowledge of vulgar fractions would not be a bar to a Ijoy going up into the fourth form. If he w.as not .able to do reduction and the compound rules that would be a bar. 6497. Besides that their writing is looked after ? — Yes. 6498. Do they write regular copies ? — Yes. 6499. And in addition to that they write from dictation ? — Yes. 6500. The whole school are taught together during dictation ? — No ; the dictation takes place from 12 till 1, at which hour the class-rooms are unoccupied. For dictation I take the first division of the boys in the theatre, and dictate to them. Easier passages are dictated to the lesser boys, in one or other of the class-rooms. 6501. {Mr. Thompson.) Is there anything in your position of mathematical master which would make Ee 4 ETON. liev. S. T. Ilawtretj. 15 July 1862. 22-1 PUBLIC SCHOOLS COMMISSION : — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. ETON. liev. S. T. Haw trey. 15 .lulj- 18G2. dictiitioii more appropriate to you than to a classical inastL'r ? No ; except that it is associated with writing. 6502. {Lord Li/tlelton.) You conduct the ivriting lessons ? — I am there superintending. I may mention here, that Dr. Okes used to superintend during the writing and arithmetic lessons ; but when I\Ir. Ilextcr resigned, he suggested that I should take the super- intendence, and from that time I have had the over- sight of the writing and arithmetic of the lower school. 6503. {Mr. Thompson.) Do you think that the circumstance of a mathematical master being set to dictate and superintend writing, would have a ten- dency to degrade him in the eyes of the boys ? — !No ; not in the least. 6504. Not on the terms on which you arc ? — Not in the slightest degree. 6505. Do you not think that the classical masters ought to attend to the dictation, and a professed writ- ing master to the writing? — This kind of thing grew up thus : Dr. Okes used to sit in the lower school, and the writing master taught there. When I succeeded to Mr. Hexter's position, he suggested that I should take the oversight that he had been accustomed to take, and so I am in the room while the writing lesson goes on. There are two or three writing masters who go walking about among the boys and teaching them. Mr. Carter, some time ago, found that some of the boys spelt very badly, and he thought it would be a good thing to have a bit of English dictated to them to write at times instead of a copy. He did not ask me to do it, but having a clear voice, and liking the boys, and wishing them to feel it was important, I undertook it myself. 6506. I can perfectly understand that, but your successor might not like to do it so well, and certainly would not like to be forced to do it ? — No ; nor would he be forced to do it. It is not in the least obligatory; it is entirely of my o^\^l choice that I do it. 6507. {Sir S. Northcote.) Tour work is very much a labour of love, is it not, with the lower school ? — It is. 6508. {Lord Lyttelfon.) What time in the day do the boys in the lower school come to the mathema- tical work ? — On Tuesdays, Thursdays, and Satur- days they come from a quarter to II till 12 o'clock for arithmetic ; on Mondays, Wednesdays, and Fridays from 12 till 1 for writing. 6509. Do they come pretty fresh ? — Yes ; there is a wonderful elasticity in boys, and although they have much to do in one place, yet when thej' come to another, and begin a fresh lesson, they are all alive again. 6510. In the winter I do not see that they have any play at all. Can you point out where they have ? — That I do not know anything about. 6511. What we know is, that every boy in the upper school looks to 12 o'clock for his play time, whereas the boys in the lower school go to their writing at 12 o'clock. Is not that hard upon them ? — They have from 1 to 3, though they sometimes go from me to their tutor. There is great elasticity among them ; they are kept occupied a good deal, but still their brains are not over-worked, I think. 6512. The fact is they get no play ? — Not much, except running about in the school-yard, and from one place to another. 6513. {Mr. Vaughan.) Are they so pressed as to be obliged to run that way ? — Not quite. 6514. Do you think it might be the case that if they had less to do they would give more attention to ■what they were doing ? — I do not know. 6515. {Lord Clarendon.) Have the lower school boys anything to prepare ? — Not in arithmetic. 6516. AH the work they do is iu the school ? — Yes, it is. The arithmetic lesson used to be an hour long, but I asked for an hour and a quarter on account of their not having anything to prepare. 6517. {Mr. Twisleton.) Are the boys taught mental arithmetic ? — No, not professedly. 6518. But they are taught occasionally ?— Not to bring out results by the professed rules of mental arithmetic ; we do not attach any importance to it. 6519. Have you ever been at the schools of the British and Foreign Society and the National Societ)% and heard the boys examined ? — Yes. 6520. You have heard them asked questions iu mental arithmetic 'i — Yes. 6521. Can the boys in the lower school answer questions in mental arithmetic as well as the boys do in the British and Foreign Society's schools ? — No. 6522. Are the boys in the lower school older or younger than the boys whom you have heard answer questions in mental arithmetic in the British and Foreign Society's schools and the National Society's schools ? — They are about the same age. 6523. In respect to the knowledge of arithmetic required iu the upper division of the lower school what is the age at which a boy of average ability who is properly taught should be able to answer questions such as these ? — To answer what ? 6524. Should be able to say his arithmetical lessons through ? — I do not quite catch what you mean. 6525. At what age ought a boy to be able to know thoroughly the first four rules of arithmetic ? — We say that they should not go into the lower Greek until they know them. 6526. What is the age at which a boy should know them ? — The average age of boys going into the lower Greek is 10 or 11 years. 6527. You think that a boy 10 years of age should know the first four rules of arithmetic thoroughly ? — Should know how to do the sums thoroughly ? 6528. What is the age at which it would be rea- sonable to require boys to know the first four rules of arithmetic ? — An average boy ? 6529. Yes? — I should say between 11 and 12 years ; but it is a difficult question to answer, for this reason, that it depends so much upon home teaching. Some of the boys come at 10 or 11, and even 12 and 13, who really know nothing ; but some have been taught very well indeed before coming to Eton. {Lord Lyttelton.) Take them in favourable cir- cumstances. 6530. {Mr. Twisleton.) Take them as having been properly taught at home. You think they ought to know the first four rules of arithmetic at the age of 11 ?— Yes. 6531. Are you aware of the ages of the boys in the upper division of the lower school ; that is to say, how many are there above 13 years of age ? — I do not know at all. 6532. According to the returns we have here it would appear there are 28 boys in the upper division of the lower school, and 24 of them are above 13 years of age. Should you not say, in reference to your previous answer, that 24 boys out of the 28 are in a lower state and have a lower amount of know- ledge of arithmetic than can be fairly said of the average class of boys whom you have seen examined in the British and Foreign Society's schools and the National Society's schools ? — By no means. The boys now alluded to are in the upper division of the lower school, and are very much iu advance of the first four rules of arithmetic ; what I said was, that boys are not allowed to go into lower Greek (that is, the second division of the lower school) till they know the first four rules. 6533. How far do they go ? — Some of them are doing fractions. But we make them do a great many examples in reduction and the compound rules, so as to give them quickness and readiness. There are an amazing number (some two thousand) useful and instructive examples in the two first parts of Colenso's elementary arithmetic j we take them backwards and forwards through these, to make them familiar with all the rules, and quick and correct in calculating. 6534. Hov/ many should you think there are who knoAv the first four rules of arithmetic properly ? — Nearly three-fourths of them, I think. 6535. What is the minimum amount of arithmetical instruction they require before they can get into PUBLIC SCHOOLS COMMISSION: — MINUTES OF KVIDENCE. ^Sr tho upjior si'hool ? — Thoy must be iible to do cora- poiiiid rules of money, weights and measures, and reduction. ()d36. {Mr. Thompson.) With respect to the theory of arithmetic, when do jou begin to teach the theory of numbers in its simplest form ? — Do you mean the reasons of the rules ? 6537. Yes ? — Always from the first. 6o38. With respect to a boy wlio could multiply two numbers should j'ou say that lie would be able to explain in an intelligible manner what was meant by multiplication ? — I should doubt whether every one of them would be able to do that. 6539. They would be taught it, and the more in- telligent among them would be able to do so, I pre- sume ? — Yes. 6540. Would they be able to understand the theory of the rule of three before they get into algebra ? — No boy can tell win' the " rule of three " brings out the right answer till he has read the theory of pro- portion. But in the earlier stages of arithmetic we treat questions, commonly solved by the rule of three, by the method recommended by Mr. Moseley, and suggested by Coleuso, viz., to find the value of one, and multiply this by the specified number of articles. 6541. That is the principle adopted in the National schools ? — Yes, in many of them. 6542. {Mr. Thompson.) Adverting to the questions already jnoposcd, do you think that practicalh' mental arithmetic i-< very useful ? — I should not think so. 6543. You do not think that a banker's clerk, for instance, would practice it if he were able to do so ? — I think that rapiditj' of calculation is rather acquired by practice in the old and legitimate rules than by the expeditious and accidentally ajjplieable rules of mental arithmetic. Rules of this kind are given to boys to make them bring out results men- tally with astonishing rapidity ; but I do not think that practically in after-life they ever have recourse to them. 6544. {Mr. Vaughan.) You think it becomes a mere matter of dexterity ? — Yes ; something, per- haps, between dexterity and trickery. 6545. {Mr. Thompson.) Do you think the practice of mental arithmetic is encouraged very much by men of business ? — I do not. I have often asked shopmen to show me how they made their rapid com- putations behind the counter, and have ahvays found it was by the straightforward processes of arithmetic, generally by the method of •' ])raclice." 6546. {Lord Clarendon.) With reference to the second section, and to the payments of four guineas, which forms the mathematical fund, is that applicable onlv to the boys in the upper school, or do the lower school boys pay four guineas also ? — The lower school boys pay four guineas too. The payment by the lower school is not put into the mathematical fund, which is divided amongst myself and seven colleagues, who teach the upper school. The four guineas a year which the lower school pay is divided between myself and the teachers of the loivev school, who are different persons altogether from the graduates who teach the upper school. 6547. The four guineas a year which is paid by the lower school is divided amongst the assistant masters in the lower school ? — Yes. 6548. {Lord Lytfelton.) Who are those otlier per- sons. You have seven assistants, but now you enumerate some other persons amongst whom these payments are divided ? — Yes. 6549. Who are they ? — They are teachers of arith- metic for the lower school. 6550. {Lord Clarendon.) Are they confined to the lower school ? — Confined to the lower school, 6551. {Lord Lyttelton.') How many are there? — Seven. 6552. Are there seven teachers of arithmetic besides seven mathematical assistants ? — Yes. 6553. {Lord Clarendon.) What proportion of these fees goes to you ? — One guinea for each boy comes to me, and three guineas are divided amongst the teachers. 1. 6554. Is the sum with respect to the upper school, the same as it is with respect to the lower ? — No ; I have a larger proportion of the ujjper. Gooo. What is your proportion for the upper ? — Eleven-twentieths. 6556. Where do you state that. It comes to you still, does it ? — In my written answers. Yes. 6557. You have no boarders ? — No. I have no house of boys. 6558. Then your income is derived entirely from these fees ? — Yes. 6559. With respect to your assistant masters, they , have private inipils ? — Yes ; and they have boys boarding in their houses. 6560." {Lord Li/ttelfon.) Not all of them ?— No ; the junior ones have not. 6561. {Lord Clarendon.) Do you expect that as the dames' houses fall vacant the mathematical masters will have them ? — I hope so. 6562. There is some little competition for them. You are not altogether secure, are you ? — Not altogether secure of the assistants having them. 6563. [Jut there is some sort of promise that when the dames' houses become vacant they will fall to the mathematical masters. Is there not something like a promise ? — I understood so. 6564. Although that has been alluded to before by Mr. Johnson, I wish you to ti'U us a little more about the status of the mathematical master and his assis- tants in the school. There is no doubt that it has been improved of late years, has it not ? — Yes. 6565. The social status is no longer so inferior a one as it used to be ? — No. 6566. Do you not consider that the inferior status of the mathematical master in the school has been prejudicial to the study of mathematics. What I mean is, do you not think that a notion was enter- tained by the boys that the superior authorities at Eton did not attach so much importance to mathe- matics, or otherwise they would have been taught by persons who were entitled to the same amount of respect from them as the classical masters ? — 1 think it did act prejudically in that wav. 6567. Was it in consequence of that notion having been discouraged or repudiated by the .school autho- rities, that some improvement in their status was introduced ? — Yes. 6568. Up to a very recent date no mathematical master was allowed, however high his degree, or however distinguished he might be in mathematics or jdiysical science, to wear his gown in chapel. Was not that so ? — Yes. 6569. Do you consider that that was a decided mark of inferiority put upon him ? — It was, certainly. 6570. Can you account at all for what was the origin of that practice, — how it was established or continued, — because I should think that as soon as the authorities at Eton had determined that mathe- matics should be a part of the regular curriculum of the school, they would have desired that it should be taught with all the effect that other branches of education were, and imparted by masters entitled to the same authority and respect as the cl.assical masters? Ancient institutions like Eton move slowly. There is a certain prejudice in favour of existing arrano-e- ments, or rather, I may say, a slow motion, which is a bar to rapid changes. Alterations are brought about gradually. First I was appointed to a position between that of an "extra master" and an "assistant master." In time I became surrounded by a band of assistants. Then I was made a regi\lar assistant, and wore a gown, and my assistants became the Head Master's assistants. In process of time they too wore gowns, first in school, afterwards in chapel. The not wearing gowns was not a " practice established," it was rather a usage continued, and the question for decision was when it was to cease. 6571. That is to say, that it should be indefinitely postponed ? — Things are moving on steadily, if slowly, that is all I can say. Ff ETON. Rev. S. T. Hawirey, 15 July 1862. 226 PUBLIC SCHOOLS COMMISSION : — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. ETON. Eev. S. T. Hawtrey. 15 July 1862. 6572. Is it not the fact, that the boys do not cap the mathematical masters, and is there not an inference to Ije drawn from that, as a matter of fact, either one way or the other ? — I sliould have tliought that if CM', ni" the assistants noticed that he was not capped by a boy, he would have asked him why he did not do so. 6573. Tiiat is not an answer to the question, which is, have the mathematical masters been capped or not by the boys ? — Yes. I do not know that I ever observed that a boy did not cap them. 6574. You have always been capped yourself ? — Yes. 6575. From the time you first went there as a mathematical master ? — I think so, but that is a long time ago. 6o7ti. Do you make any distinction between your- self and the assistant classical masters ? — Since 1851 my standing has been the same as that of the classical assistants. 6577. {Lord LijtteUoH.) That has been your par- ticular case only ? — Yes. 6578. You have been i'ormally raised to the same status, have you not ? — Yes. 6579. Tour assistant mathematical masters are not in the same position ? — No ; but in the tokens of respect they pay, the boys make no ditFereuce be- tween them and me. I do not recollect ever follow- ing them down Keate's Lane, without the boys touching their hats to them, as they passed down. 6580. {Mr. Thompson.) Do they cap the French master? — I think not, unless tliey are his own pupils. 6581. Would they cap a dame if that dame hap- pened to be walking down the lane ? — Not, I think, unless they boarded in their house. There may be exceptions; for instance, I think that Mr. Evans would never walk up that lane without being capped by the boys. 6582. By all the boys ? — I cannot say ; perhaps not. May I be allowed, however, to add, that cap- ping is a matter which I do not much notice or think about, and therefore my testimony on the subject is not worth much. 6583. Referring to the case of the comparative neglect of mathematics at Eton, it was neglected there longer than it was at any school, I think ; was it not. Mathematics at our public schools have been more or less deficient ; but would you not say that the deficiency has existed for a longer period at Eton than at any other school ? — T am not aware. We do not know very well what goes on at other schools, and I am not able to say. 6584. Tlie governing body, generally speaking, have had their education at King's College ? — Yes. 6585. Would not that assist in explaining their indifference towards mathematics ? — Very likely. 6586. Did 3'ou ever know any Fellow of King's College at Cambridge evince any interest in mathe- matics ? — Not before mathematics were a part of the school business. 6587. I mean until the recent changes ? — No. 6588. Wiien I asked that question I was seeking the historical cause of the neglect of mathematics at Eton ? — I think the historical cause may be ascribed to the little interest naturally felt by the Fellows of King's for a study they had not pursued at Eton, and which their peculiar privilege at Cambridge exempted them fi'om pursuing there. These after- wards became the governing body at Eton. 6589. In point of fact, they were profoundly ignoi'aut of them ? — Yes, formerly. 6.590. And prdportionately indifferent ? — I suppose so. 6591. {Lord Clarendon.) Will you have the good- ness to pass to page 126, in which you say there are opportunities for boys to be initiated, — it is not more than that, — into physical science. I think you go rather further than anybody else has done as to the progress so made by the boys in physical science, or the in- terest which has been exhibited by them in that respect. What has been the result of your own observation that has led to this, because we under- stand that physical science is not in reality taught at Eton. 15ut this passage in your evidence gives the notion that it is attended to, and with some success ? — I think it is, with some little success. During the two winter school-times we have lec- turoi-.s, — some of them. Professors Tyndall, O'Brien, Baden Powell, Dr. Noad, Mr. Pepper, 8tc., are men- tioned here. They have come and given lectures to the boys, principally experimental lectures, and they have been listened to with attention. These lectures have led to the hunting up of a great deal of know- ledge upon different matters. Questions are given on the subject of these lectures, and perhaps from 10 to 20 boys will give in answers to the questions. 6592. Supposing a lecturer has announced his in- tention, by due notice, of giving a lecture at Eton, something in this way : — Professor so and so will give a lecture on such a subject. About how many boys do you think will attend ? — The lectures are given regularly on the Thursdays during the school-time. 6593. It is a regular thing, is it ? — -Yes, every Thursday ; latterly after four for the younger boys, and after six for the elder boys. 6594. Are the lectures in some branch of physical science ? — Yes. 6595. And some experienced and eminent professor is engaged to come from London, I suppose, to give the lecture ? — Yes. 6596. Is it known in the school what the lectures are to be, and by whom they are to be given ? — Yes. 6597. Is it voluntary on the part of the boys to attend them ? — Yes. 6598. How many boys do attend, in point of fact ? — I .should tliink about 100. 6599. Of the upper school ? — Yes. 6600. Are the lectures held in your theatre ? — Yes, 6601. You said that papers are given out. Who are they given by ?■ — By the lecturer. He gives out eight or ten questions on the subject of his lecture. These are given to the boys, and the next time he comes those who have done them show up their answers to the questions set the week before. 6602. Brought before he delivers the lecture ? — He does not look over them at the time ; they are merely handed to him. When the course of lectures is over he announces who has answered the best. I have sent a few of the best answers here. ( The M.S. books containing the exercises of the boys on the lectures rcerc here handed to the Commissioners.) 6603. {Mr. Twisleton.) There are two weekly lectures in the school, are there not ? — Yes. The lower boys come from four to five, and the upper from seven to eight. 6604. {Lord Clarendon.) You think there is an interest manifested in these lectures ? — Yes, I think there is an increasing interest. 6605. A growing interest ? — A growing interest. I think that the boys pick up a good deal of infor- mation at them. They talk of them and read books on the same subject as the lectures afterwards. From the conversation which the boys have together, from the exercises on the lectures which some of them do, from their recollection of the experiments, and from their getting up the details of the experiments which they have seen performed, and giving a written account of them, I have no hesitation in saying that the institution of these lectures has been beneficial. 6606. Who selects the lectures 'i. — I do. 6607. It is not considered part of the general school arrangement, I suppose ? — No. I submit the name of the lecturer and the subject of the lectures to the Head Master, and he gives permission for the course to be given, if he approves. 6608. What is it that the boys pay for these lec- tures ; three shillings ? — Two shillings a lecture for the course, three shillings for a single lecture. 6609. They are given as a course ? — Yes. 6610. {Lord Lyttelton.) That is the way in which the lecturers are paid ? — Yes, and the incidental expenses. .PUBLIC SCHOOLS COMMISSION : - MINUTES OF EVJDEKCE. 227 6611. (Mr. Vaiighan.) Who arranges what are to be the siilyeots on which the k'eturcs are to be delivered ? — I arrange that niy.~elf with the leoturers, ami submit it to tlie Head Master. 6612. Do you keej) in j-our eye any sj-steinatic course of lectures when you settle the syllabus for a particular sehool-time. Do you keep in mind what lectures liave been given before, and what are in- tended to be given afterwanls, so as to make them into a regular course ? — I will not say more than this, that if we had a series of lectures, for instance, upon electricity hitely, we should not have that series again till some time had elapsed. 6613. You manage in that way, so that the subjects do not recur too ofteu ? — Just so. 6614. So that boys who attend the lectures throughout a course of two or three year.s, would go through a complete course of instruction in phy- sical science ; is it done in tliat way ? — Pretty well. 661.3. Do you happen to know whether the class which attends it is a very shifting class, or whether the boys are noticed to go through a pretty long course of such lectures ? — I think it is the habit of the same boys to attend one course after another. 6616. Do you think the result is that a boy high in the school will have heard most of the lecturers who have come there since he has been at school ? — Yes, I think so. 6617. What is the object held in view in tlie nomination of so m.any different lecturers. Is it that each person may lecture upon those subjects with which he is best acquainted ? — These lectures, of which notices are given in the books placed before the Commission, extend over a series of j'cars — I think from 1849 — and several of the lecturers men- tioned here are dead. 6618. It is entirely optional, both with respect to the attendance at the lectures and as to whether the boys answer the questions, T suppose ? — Y'^es. 6619. I observe the name affixed to this exercise is " Newry ; " did he gain a prize ? — Yes ; that is Lord NewTy. 6620. Are all thiit think fit to answer the questions considered to be candidates for prizes ? — Y'cs. 6621. You say there that perhaps 20 boys will give in papers. Is that the average ? — The average is below that ; the number varies with different lec- tures, according to the popularity of the lecturer and of the subject. 6622. Is it expected that these boys who answer questions on paper will refer to books, or are they supposed to reproduce the lecture? — There are questions given at the end of each lecture, and the boys are allowed to have books, and to get all the information they can on the subject. Then at the end of the whole course a paper of questions is some- times set to be answered in the room without re- ferring to books. 6623. Do you consider that the answers given in this extemporary fashion are at all equal to the answers that are written ?— They are not jelaborated in the way they are in these books. 6624. But is the substance of the lectures given'in them ? — Y'^es, there are boys that can do it. 6625. Have yon ever heard of boys speaking of the interest they have taken in these lectures ? — Often. 6626. Do you think the popularity of the lecture is owing to the pleasure which the boys have in see- ing the experiments, or the desire to make them- selves acquainted with the subject and the interest they feel in it ? — It is of a mixed character. They like the experiments, and no doubt feel a pleasure in seeing them. But when a well chosen experiment follows up and illustrates a principle which has been clearly explained, there is no mistaking the lively satisfaction of the audience. 6627. Do you think that these lectures have ever at all determined a boy to any particular course of study ; that they have led him to feel an interest in this particular subject beyond others ? — I may here mention a case which I particularly noticed of a boy who.se mind seemed to have been drawn out by these lectures. He took a very lively interest in them, and used great effort to make himself master of the facts that were illustrated. Before this period he seemed to have great difhculty in mastering Euclid, but there was a marked alteration afterwards ; sub- sequently he got an ap|)oiutmeut in the orilnance corps by competitive examination. 6628. Y'ou s.ay that he was very inferior in mathe- matics ? — Yes ; but he improved much afterwards. 6629. Was he inferior in classiis ? — I have no reason to think SO; but lam safe in saying that the scientific part of the examination contributed not a little to his success. He has since become distinguished for his knowledge in eheniistr}'. 6630. Supposing that this study were incorporated into the school curriculum a little more completely than it is at present, do you think it might be made the means of bringing out a boy who really did not exercise his mind either with respect to mathematics or classics? — I really think it might in very many cases. 6631. {Mr. Twisleioti.) Can you give us a list of the subjects on which these lectures have taken place ? — I think I could by referring to past lists.* 6632. Have you ever heard from the lecturers themselves in what way the boys answered these questions in regard to oral examinations? You alluded to examinations where they do not refer to books ? — Y'cs ; they have spoken highly of some of the answers. 6633. Does that examination always take place? — Not always. 6634. Have you ever heard them saj' they should like to see the lectures embodied into the regular school teaching ? — No ; I have never entered into conversation with the boys on that particular point. I do not think the idea would occur to them. 6635. Do you think that the interest which boys take in these lectures would be increased if the know- ledge of them told on the places of boys in the school? — Do you mean to ask me whether I think they should be obligatory and part of the school business ? 6636. No; but what would 1)0 the effect if it should produce the same results with respect to a boy's i)ro. motion in the school or the distinction which he would gain, as the knowledge of French does at the present time ? — I cannot say what additional eifect that might have ; the boys already take an interest in the scientific lectures. They find out when the lectures are about to be given, and come to them. . 6637. Do you not think it would be natural, that in addition to the interest they take in the subject, if there were sjme advantage in school promotion it would add to their desire to attend ? — I cannot ex- actly see what advantage the)' could have over what they have at present. They have the advantage of gaining prizes, but they cannot be promoted in the school through the knowledge of these subjects, because that promotion takes place in consequence of a certain definite knowledge of classics andmathematics. 6638. Also partly b}' their proficiency in French. Y''ou are aware that their French will assist them ? — Y'es, that is true. I did not think of that. 6639. Do you n-ot think that if the same advantage were given in any degree to proficiency in physical science it would very much increase the zeal and * The follnwin? list was suljsequentl.v furnished by tlie wituess; — *' I find that during the last l-l- years there have Ijeen courses of lectures ou the foUo\rinff subjects : — Natural Philosophy ; Popular Astro- nomy ; 3Iechanical Philosophy ; the Forces of Attraction ; Light ; Heat ; Frictional and Voltaic Electricity ; Chemistry (at various times and iii its various branches and applications), organic and inorganic; Chemis- try of Gases, and of Metals ; Chemistry of Common Things ; ^Vater in its triree conditions of Ice, Water, and Steam; the Chemical and Physical Properties of the Atmosphere ; Application of Scientific Discoveries to the Useful Arts and Manufactures ; on Coal and Coal Mines, the Manu- facture of Iron, &.C. Also remarkable discoveries or processes which have from time to time attracted attention have been illustrated and explained by lectures, such as the Electric Telegraph ; Photography ; Electro-plat'ing ; the Construction of the ^Vestminster Clock ; the i^esse- mer Process for making Steel ; nifling Cannons, and the Science of the Armstrong and Whitworth iiuns ; the Method of producing brilliant Colours from Coal Tar; Professor Bimseu and Kirchhotf's Analysis of the Spectrum, &c. " The following courses have also been given ; — " Com])arative Anatomy and Geologv-; Pliysical Geography, including the theory of the Winds, Kain, and Cluuate; Modern History; Ancient and Modern Assyria; China and Japan, from Personal Observation." Ff 2 . ETON. Jin: S. T. Hawtiey. 15 July 18GJ. 228 PUBLIC SCHOOLS COMMISSION:— MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. ETON. Rev. S. T. Hawtrev. 15 J-J 1862. assiduity of the boys with reference to their atten- dance upon these lectures ?— Yes, I think it is rea- sonable to suppose that it would. 6640. {Sir S. Northcote.) You have shown us some of tlic answers given by some of the boys to questions.^ Are these at all fair specimens of the generality of the answers ? — 1 have shown you quite the best an- swers that have been shown up. 6641. {Mr. Vaiifihan.) How many boys did you invite to send in the answers in this way, do you remember ?— I think about five or six. These are the answers of the boys that 1 wrote to and asked if they had their jjapers by them, felling them that if they would send them to me, I would be responsible for and return them. 6642. Did you write to those that you thought would be most likely to have paid the best attention to such matters ? — Yes. I have the best of them, I think. 6643. {Mr. Thompson.) Who copied these ? — The boys themselves. 6644. Are these ansAvers that arc now given from notes taken at the time of the lectures, assisted by a subsequent reference to books ? — -Yes. 6645. {Mr. Twislcfon.) They are permitted to copy from books ? — Yes. 6646. {Lord Clarendon.) The next subject, Mr. Hawtrey, on which we wish to ask you for further information begins at the bottom of page 127; namely, your views with respect to learning music, which are much more strongly expressed than the views of any other gentleman who has given us information on the subject. It is a point on which we should like to hear something more. I, for one, go very far with you on this question of music. We gather from you that you have made a continuous but unsuccessful effort to indoctrinate others, and especially the lower masters, with your views ? — Yes. 6647. Up to this time you have not been very successful. But should you say you have in some degree succeeded in making music a regular study, of course you would not say a compulsory study. I suppose we can scarcely say that it is a regular study? — Latterly two of the masters, INIr. Snow and llr. Cornish, have established classes of boys to whom they teach music. They do not confine themselves to their own pupils, but teach any boys who may like to join the class. 6648. And how man3^, about, do you suppose did join ? — I should say about 12 or 14 in each class. 6649. Is that because these two gentlemen are musical ? — Because they are musical themselves. 6650. Is it for the gratification then of their own musical taste that they would wish to prosecute the study of music ; is it for the indulgence of their own taste, or do they look on it as 3'ou do as recognizing an intellectual ))enefit that would result from the learning of music ? — I have not asked them that question ; whether the question of its being an in- tellectual benefit has occurred to them I do not know. That it is an intellectual benefit to the boys there can be no doubt. 6651. In what way do you consider it an intel- lectual benefit ? — I believe th.at learning to read music on IluUiih's system concentrates the attention for three or four minutes more than any other kind of lesson. There is a parochial school at Windsor in which I take a deep interest, and I judge from that school. The children .are very well taught iu music, and I have seen the eyes of little Ijoys eight or nine years old fixed on a t.ablet with a degree of intense earnestness which cannot be created by any other kind of lesson. 6652. You consider it a sort of mind training ? — It is undoubtedly a mind training as well as an acquisition of music. I have no doubt of it. Then, when they have acquired the power of reading music, and sit down to one of Handel's or Mendelssohn's choruses, the concentrated attention, precision, and self-reliance with which they go through their parts shows clearly that the process of acquinng the power of sin^ino- at sight has been an admirable mental dis- cipline. I have looked into their countenances, full of animation and intelligence, as they sung, and have felt convinced that the power they had gained was not only a moral benefit to them, but a highly intellectual acquisition also. I speak with very great confidence upon this point, because I speak now after 18 years' experience. 6653. And after 18 years' experience, notwith- standing you have endeavoured to impress your views on different lower masters, you have not been able to obtain support for anything like a musical training? — No; we mustered in 1843 a very large class under Mr. HuUah. It was just at the time that he was beginning his .system, but after we had formed that large class it was broken up, partly from accidental circumstances. 6654. Was that the appearance of scarlatina in the school ? — Yes ; and then in the siunmer time, when Mr. Hullah came down on one occasion, it being the day of the annual cricket match between the collegers and oppidans, there was but a single boy in the class. 6655. {Mr. Tivisleton.) Was he discouraged by th.at ? — Very much indeed. 6656. {Lord Clarendon.) I think he ought to have allowed for that ? — Allow me to say, that the number of boys in the class iu the summer time had dwindled down very much before that. That was the grand climax. 6657. Is it well looked on now in the school, that is to siiy, do the boys take the same view of it that you do, and think it manly to learn music ? — I think that many boys would be very glad to learn. 6658. And there would be no laughing at them by the rest of the boys ? — Not the least. 6659. You say you have addressed yourself to the lower master on the subject, and endeavoured to make him take the same views that you entertain. Have you ever addressed yourself to the Provost, the Head Master, or the higher authorities generally ? — When the first attempt broke down, Mr. Hullah said he would never come to the school to teach again unless it was made obligatory. There was so much laborious effort required in learning the intervals that many of the pupils fell off. The reason I alluded to the lower master was because the lower school come all together to the mathematical school for their arithmetical lessons, and having them all there, I wished them to ha\e, say half an hour of ciphering, and then an interval of half an hour of singing, then another half hour of ciphering. In that way I thought the experiment of learning music might be effectually made, and that was my reason for alluding to the lower master. 6660. You have an hour now ? — I have an hour and a quarter. I wanted an hour and a half, so as to have, as I say, an interval in the lesson to give to singing. 6661. Do you think it would not be worth while to attempt it even with an hour and a quarter ? — Yes ; but I could.not do it without the lower master's permission. 6662. The lower master will not allow you to break in on that hour and a quarter ? — I did not get leave when I asked, but I will ask him again. 6663. You say that boys frequently meet in the mathematical school in the winter eveninortionment of ])rivate pupils. I think that the limitation of 40 pupils to each tutor is a very good one,but I think the mathematical assistant mastersought to be permitted to take their boys into houses as pupils. 6800. You have answered the question generally . on the assumption that the i)resent system should be continued, whereby every boy is compelled to have for his tutor and jirivate tutor an assistant classical master, but will you give us your views upon that subject ? — I think that the parent should be allowed to choose. Supposing that a parent wished his son to apply himself particularly to ma- thematics, witii a view to some particular object he had in his mind, he would probably tell the classical tutor that he would like his son to have extra mathematical tuition. For this he would pay the mathematical assistant master 10 guineas a year, and he would also pay the assistant classical master 20 guineas a year for classical work. My notion is that it a parent should wish his boy to lay himself out more particularly for mathematics the rule should be inverted, and the mathematical assis- tant master should be paid 20 guineas and the classical assistant master 10 guineas a year ; and in that case he might go to the mathematical master's house, and be his pupil, and go to the classical assistant master for classical instruction, the same as he now goes to the mathematical assistant inaster for mathematical in- struction, he being in the classical master's house. 6801. In that case you would have the tutorial in- fluence to follow the tutor ? — Yes, the mathematical master would be in the same relation towards the boy as the classical tutor is now. 6802. (Mr. Thompson.) I presume that you do not see any immediate prospect of such an arrange- ment as that being concurred in ? — Not the slightest. 6803. {Mr. Vaughan.) Do you connect that in any way with another provision, namely, that a separate school division should be formed for those who wished to devote themselves more particularly to the study of mathematics ? — When I said a sepa- rate school division I did not want them to be sepa- rated from the other boys so as to form them into a modern class, but what I want is that when a boy gets into the fifth form, if he is intended to go into the scientific branch of the army, to try for Wool- wich, or for the Civil Service of India, or anything which would make it necessary for him to work harder at mathematics or modern languages than at anything else, that he should have an opportunity of becoming the bona fide pupil of the mathematical master, his classical work being diminished. 234 PUBLIC SCHOOLS COMMISSION :— MINUTES OF E^TIDENCE. ETON 6804. Would you include those whose intention " was to go to the university for the express object of r.ev E. Hale, standing for mathematics ?— I would include any boy who showed a decided preference for mathematics. 15 July 1862. J jjj^^.y known an instance of a boy being driven away from Eton because he could not come up to the classical standard, who had a decided taste for mathe- matics. , c -c^ 6805. What did he go away for ? — He lett iiiton because he could not say by heart. He went to Trinity and took a wrangler's degree. 6806. Will you have the goodness to describe what you should wish to be done in such cases as those to which you have just been alluding ?— In such cases as those I think that a boy should be ex- cused his verses and his Latin themes, and in place of those he should have a certain amount of English given him with extra work in mathematics and modern languages. The verses and themes press upon many of those boys, who have no taste for them, most heavily. I have known boys in the lower part of the fifth form who are very slow indeed at verses to whom mathematics are comparatively easy. They can only get through their verses and themes by means of the most heavy labour both to them and their tutor. I know a lioy at the present time who expe- riences this diffleulty in respect to classics, and yet that boy is always one of the first five in the division in mathematics. 6807. In the case of a boy of that description, when it came to the examination of his form, might not he be expected to fall very much behind his compeers in classical work ? — Certainly, especially in the compo- sition. 6808. What would you wish to have done to place 8uch a boy in his proper position, and one which ho was deseiving of from his industry and his proficiency in mathematics ?— I would deal with it very simply, namel}', by raising the value of mathematics. What I think is that there ought to be two papers set, one for composition and the other for the higher branches of mathematics ; so that a boy might have his choice either to take up the paper upon composition or that upon higher mathematics. If he did only middling in either he would get a middling place, but if a boy did brilliantly in either of those two subjects he would be put in a high position on the list. 6809. Are you aware what is the result of ex- perience in that matter. What is the effect of drop- ping composition on the general scholarship of the boy ? — I do not feel myself competent to give an opinion upon that ])oint. I have heard an opinion strongly expressed that dropping composition would ruin a boy's scholarship, but I do not see it m3-self, and I have also heard the contrary opinion. 6810. You do not know what the effect has been in schools where it has been dropped ? — I do not know. 6811. Should you be able to meet the case, suppos- ing it should turn out that dropping the composition of a school affected in an injurious manner the scho- larship of the boy. Would the pupil not embarrass the teaching of the classical form he went into if he went into it with his scholarship generally dete- riorated, however superior in matliematics he might be to the rest of the boys ? — He might. 6812. {A Commissioner.) Is it the fact, practically speaking, that a boy may be at Eton a whole school time and yet never be called up in school at all ? Yes. 6813. So that if it is known that a boy of this kind is in the class he might not be called up ? — I have known that done in the case of a boy who has con- strued very badly indeed. The master in school has been asked by his tutor not to call him up, the tutor saying, " I will work the boy up, and make him do as " well as I can." I have known that done in the case of a boy who has had a private tutor, and the boy never was called up. 6814. {^fr. Vauff/ian.) Would you allow him to obtain an unlimited number of marks according to his proficiency in mathematics, and then compare the marks that he might gain in mathematics with the marks that othersmight gain in composition? — I would limit it according to the number of marks they can gain by composition. I do not think that the power of construing would necessarily be interfered with in consequence of a boy leaving off his composition. 6815. That is a point in dispute. 1 do not think that experience would absolutely entitle you to as- sume that ? — I can only say, that I know boys at Eton now who are said to be excessively bad at com- position, and who are said to be very good hands indeed at construing. 6816. In giving them the privilege of escaping composition, would you include in that translation. I believe there is some of that ? — Some in the fifth form. 6817. What would you do with respect to transla- tion ? — I think translation exceedingly valuable in making the boys express themselves clearly in their own language. 6818. I mean translating from their own language into the classical languages. What would j'ou do in that case ? 6819. {3Ii: Thompson.) Would you exclude that ? — It is not much done at Eton. There is what is called the theme, which is an original piece of Latin prose, which the boys write. I very often wish they might alter it and have it in English. 6820. {Mr. Vaughan.) Is it not the case that there is besides in all 'forms some translation ? — - Yes ; there is translation from Latin into English. 6821. {Sir S. Northcole.) And from English into Latin also 'i — Very little. 6822. {Mr. Vauglian.) You think that that is sub- ordinate, that it need not be taken notice of ? — I think that in most cases it would be very incon- venient to insist upon any strict rules. You could see at once whether a boy were able to do it or not, and if he were not able to do it he might be ex- cused, or put to something else, just as his friends wished. 6823. Do you say that both with respect to trans- lation and toother matters, and would you apjilyyour rule about the marks of the composition to all of them ? — I would not make any very strict rule defining the matter. 1 would not draw a very strict line, but would let it be altered in individual cases. In mathematics our staff is so large compared with the classical staff, we having only two divisions at a time in class, and the classes being so small, that we can treat each boy much more individually than any classical master can. For instance, one boy could come to us five times a week, and another only come four, because he has his trans- lation to do. 6824. Do you happen to know the value of this classical work in examination ? — No. 6825. You do not know what would be the gain to mathematics by giving the boys the privilege of dropping any of the other work ? — The impression I have about the examination is that about one- third of the marks in classics are given to mathe- matics-; that is to say, that the mathematical marks are about one third the value of the classical marks. For instance, if in pure classics 900 marks are given to a boy they would be equal to 300 marks given for mathematics, the remaining marks would be made up by history and modern languages. 6826. {Mr. Tioisletoyi.) Is it common for some boys to write copies of verses for others ? — Yes ; I should say at all schools it is the same. 6827. It is so at Eton ?— Yes. 6828. (Lord Clare7idon.) You say that in conse- quence of the great teaching power there is in the mathematical department you are able to give more attention to the boys than they are in the classical department ? — Yes. What we require is more time. 6829. You are able to give individually much more teaching ? — jMuch more. 6830. Do you consider the individualization of a study is of great advantage ? — When they get higher in the school. When boys are in the fourth form, the remove, and the lower part of the fifth, it is better PUBLIC SCHOOLS COMMISSION : — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE, 235 to teach them on the class system, but after they f^et lip to a certain part of the school it is much better to individualize each boy, and teach him separately. One boy, for instance, sometimes does three times tlie ■work tliat another boy will do. iSomctimes in the sixth form and upper fifth we only have five boys in :i olass. Division A is much subdivided. In July 1861 I had 10 boys iu it, but the number I have in it now ia only four collegers and one oppidan. G831. {Lord Clarendon.) Then I can easily under- stand that there is no attempt at class teaching ? — Yes. 6832. You have them in drafts ? — Yes ; it is a great .advantage to have those boys in divisions which are so small. 6833. {Mr. Thompson.) Tliej' are like private pupils? — Yes; and two of them are my private pupils as well, so that I am able to supplement my private tuition with the school tuition, and vice rersa. 6834. {Lord Clarendon.) Do you tliink that by making the classical divisions so small as that the classical masters would be able to give more attention to their pupils ? — I cannot imagine that it would be possible to m.nke them so small as that. 6835. Do you mean that they would not get mas- ters enough ? — I think that tlie kind of tuition wanted is perfectly different. In ihat case five bojs would not be sufficient to form a class for mere con- struing. 6836. Would not they be taken iu different groups, one of 10, another of 12, another of 19, another of 22, another of 25, and so on ? — Some of those in these two groups, A and B, which I say we teach indivi- dually, are doing trigonometry and conic sections. It is better not to work such boys as those in classes. 6837. Do you know at what time that competition between classics and mathematics would begin ?■ — I should think it would not begin before the boys had Lee:; iu the school some considerable time. 6838. At what time in the school would you per- mit a boy to throw up his composition aud trans- lation in classics aud take to mathematics? — Not before he reached the fifth fortu. In my opinion the great break down iu the army class, which was tried at Eton, and with respect to which there was a great failure, w.as because boys were allowed to go into it from all parts of the school, and they were all, wliether they belonged to the fifth form or the remove, in the same class. Cousequently nothing was really done. 6839. You would wish to ensure a certain amount of classical instruction first? — Yes. I tliink that the classics should be made the prime foundation of edu- cation and not be done away with on any account. 6840. Would you be content with the present amount of mathematics in the school system ? — Quite, for the average boys of the school. 6841. (Jlr. Thompson.) Speaking of the army class, do you think that the principal reason why it broke down was that it was not well conceived ? — I do not think the army class was necessary, because the boys who formed it were merely boys who were going iu for commissions by purchase. Auj- boy who goes through the common course at Eton and who has got a fiiir portion of common sense ought to be able to pass the examination for direct commissions. 6842. {Mr. Vaut/haii.) Now, going into another subject for a moment, do you think that it would be fair and reasonable, supposing a bo}' had the same in- clination in pursuance of some views of life witli respect to modern languages, as the boys to whom you have alluded might have iu respect to mathema- tics, to aUow him to give up composition also for the sake of pursuing the study of modern languages ? — ^^'^len he has got to that part of the school I think it would be very fair. 6843. {Lord Clarendon.) You say with regard to the number of attendances on the mathematical mas- ters, that they are three times a week, but there is no limit to the number of times a pupil may attend. That might be provided for ? — That entirely refers to my pupil rooms. 6844. You say there is extreme difficulty in fixing regular hours for each boy's attendance and adhering to them, as the classical assistants require their pupils' attendance often at a few minutes' notice, and the mathematical assistants must yield. It is prac- tically the case that there is much dilHculty ? Yes ; practically it operates in this way. I say to a boy, " Your regular hours of attendance will be from 10 " to 11 on Tuesdays, Thursdays, and Saturdays." 6845. Do you mean class work ? — Xo, work iu my pupil room. I also say, " Come to mo as often as " you liko besides ; but during those hours you " must be bound to come." Bye and bye a boy comes at 10 minutes past 10, and he says, " Ple.ase, " sir, my tutor wants me ;" and then he must go. 6846. What authority is there that his tutor does want him ? — I very seldom find a boy telling an un- truth. In 99 cases out of 100 I can always trust him in that matter. 6847. Should you think it right to make known to the tutor at what hours you required him ? — . Quite so. 6848. So that there might bo an understanding between yourself and the classical tutor in order that there should not be that unseemly conflict of au- thority ? — All our regulations would then bo broken up Viy irregular weeks coming in. 6849. Just so ? — I do not know whether you havo seen our almanack for this half year. {Witness handed the almanack to the Commissioners.) 6850. Does it often happen that when you are expecting a boy, that boy is obliged to leave to go to his classical tutor ? — Yes. 6851. Aud you do not see him for the rest of the day ? — I tell him to come to me at some other time ; but it is inconvenient both for him and for me, .and pU our plans are upset by it. 68.52, Do you not try to come to some understand- ing with the boy's classical tutor ? — There was some j-ears back a regular fixed time for tutors to h.ave their construing and private lessons, and so on ; but all these things they have altered, and tin?y take their own time, so that we never exactly know when they are having private business, or when their construing is going to take pl.ace. The usual course I adojit is to tell a boy what time he is to come to me, and I ask him whether that will interfere with his tutor. lie sajs, " No ;" but bye and bye his tutor has perhaps two or three copies of Greek iambics to look over, which takes him longer than his ordinary work, in consequence of which the pupil cannot come to me at his proj)er time. Besides which comes an irregular week caused by saints' days, &c. 6853. The result of which is, that the work is carried into two or three days of the week ? — Yes. 6854. What is the general feeling of the masters, as far as you know, both mathematical and classical, about the time table ? — A great number of them have spoken about it, and have wished to see the work much more regul.ar. They wish to see the ir-egular weeks done away with. Some of them wish the saints' days to be no longer observed ; others wish them observed as now. 6855. You do not think that the irregularity of the time table is generally admired ? — On the contrary, it is generally very much found fault with, and it would be a very great improvement, in my ojiinion, if we had a short daily service in the college chapel at which all the boys could be present. It would be far preferable to having it in our houses as it is now. The prayers that I have in my house are not quite the prayers to have for my servants and family who are attending with the boys. I would i'ar rather see the boys altogether, and if it would take too much time to get into chapel I think it would be better to have prayers in the different school-rooms, or some arrangement by which v^e could have a short service each morning. 6856. Do you think it good or bad to have the church service on holidays and on half holidays ? — : I think the boys find them tedious and irksome. Gg 2 f,to:t. Uev. E. Hale. 15 July 18C2. 23G PUBLIC SCHOOLS COMMISSION : — MIN DTES OF EVIDENCE. ETON. Itio. E. Hale. ir, ,Tuly 18C2. 6857. They do not go to chapel with the same feelings as they go to church ? — No. 6808. {Sir S. Northcote.) Is it your notion that if a boy were sent to a mathematical master as his pri- vate pupil he might dispense with a classical tutor if his parents were willing to let him lose the classical private business? — No, because he must go to his classical tutor to have his school exercises corrected, and so on. 6839. Would not a boy lose a great deal of the valu- able part of the classical teaching if he lost the private business with the classical tutor ? — lam supposing the case of a boy who would require mathematical teach- ing more than classical teaching. Where the parents wished that boy to be taught classics particularly, I should send him to a classical master's house. In those cases where the boys are to have classical tuition and no private mathematical, or mathematical and no private classical, of course there could be no collision between the houses to which he would be sent. 6860. What would you contemplate in those cases in which boys are to have private tuition iu both ? — Such cases might arise but they would be rare. 6861. Do you consider that the present mathe- matical teaching ought to be sufficient to enable a boy to pass the Woolwich examinations, provided he had some additional assistance by means of private tuition, to get him through the mathematical work ? — I think it quite sufficient for a boy who has fair abilities, and who has been somewhat well grounded, provided, too, he can give up sufficient time. If a boy comes to Eton without knowing anything, and is really behind other boys, he must have mathem.atical private tuition to get him up to the standard of the other boys. 6862. Is it not the case that many boys who come badly prepared are rather kept back when they first come to Eton unless they get private tuition ; that is to say that they cannot be placed in the fourth form in consequence of their not doing arithmetic or mathematics to the extent which will enable them to be placed in the upper school ? — I had the case of a pupil of ray own who was placed in the middle of the fourth form, who had to read extra mathematics, as he did not know enough to qualify him properly for the fourth form. 6863. That was an exceptional case ? — Yes. 6864. But is it not continually the case th.it boys have done some Euclid but fail in arithmetic ? — Yes, continually. 6860. And therefore it is necessary for them to have private tuition ? — It is if they wish to keep np with the rest of the class. 6866. Ought not the arrangements of the school to keep a boy fairly up to his cl.ass ? — Practically, I have often found boys who have done a certain amount of Euclid and algebra, but who are utterly inefficient in arithmetic, ajul I have found that to give boys half a year of vulgar fractions and decimals was extremely necessary. 6867. If boys have private mathematical tuition, is it a school offence not to attend their mathematical tutor ? — Certainly ; but I should never complain to the Head Master aliout it. I should speak to the classical tutor about it, and write to the boy's parent, and tell him that I would not take the boy any more. ' 6868. That would be if he was extremely irregular in his attendance, I presume ? — Yes. 6869. But for irregularity of attendance once or twice, you would not do that ?— I should send for the boy and make him come afterwards. 6870. Pi-actically speaking, you are able to get a fair attendance ?— The only difficulty I have at pre- sent is th.at in examination time the boys work gene- rally very hard, but there is a good deal of idleness among them immediately after going through examina- tions. 6871. You do not find boys professing to take pri- vate mathematical tuition and making it an excuse for not attending the classical tutor ?— I have known eases of idleness in which their mathematical tutoi'3 would not take them any more. And, indeed, it seems a matter of course to adopt that rule, because it is utterly useless to have private tuition unless the boys will come willingly. They might just as well have none at all. 6872. {Lord Clarendon.) Have you any other suggestion to make to us ? — The only thing that I h.ave not mentioned at all, and which I might men- tion, is the position of the collegers. I have always thought the wearing of a gown by the collegers is a distinction that might reasonably be done away with. In the first place, in the summer it is excessively un- comfortable for them. It is an extremely heavy gown, and when they come into the hot school the first thing I do is to make them take it off. Not only is it very uncomfortable, but it makes a distinc- tion between them and the other boys, which prevents their mixing as freely as they would otherwise do if that distinction were done away with. It is not so much the upper boys that it affects as the little ones, who see a boy wearing a gown and who think it is some mark of inferiority. 6873. As far as you are able to know, what would be the feeling of the collegers themselves? We have had some rather contradictory evidence upon that point? — I think among the bigger collegers they would not like to see the difference done away with. I think tliey pride themselves on their superiority to the oppidans intellectually, but I certainly think it would be an advantage among the younger boys. I have known boys whose parents wished them to try for college, but who have not done so, and who have told me that after being oppidans they did not like to become collegers. 6874. {Sir S. jS^or/hcofe.) Let me ask you how do you find the collegers and oppidans with respect to mathematics when they are compared with one another? Which are superior? — Well, practically, I have generally found a boy who is good in classics is generallj' above the average in mathematics. 6875. The collegers are generally superior to the oppidans in classics. Are they equally so in mathe- matics ? — The collegers are more industrious as a body. 6876. {Mr. Thompson.') They are more accustomed to apply iheir minds to study, and are of different habits? — Yes ; but in the Tomline certainly the oppidans and collegers generally are upon an equality, 6877. {Mr. Twisleton.) Do you think that the same superiority which the collegers have in classics, they have to nearly the same extent iu mathematics ? — I think so. 6878. {Mr. Thompson.) But there are 800 of one, and only 70 of the other ; so that if there is an equality with respect to the Tomline prize, it will .amount to a great superiority on the part of the collegers ? — Yes. 6879. {Mr. Twisleton.) Is it not the case that mathematics require a much shorter period of pre- vious study than classics ? — To a boy of natural talent much shorter. 6880. If among 800 oppidans there were a certain number of young men with the same natural force of mind as the collegers, would it not be reasonable to expect that they would keep pace with the collegers ? -—I do not think, as a rule, the study of mathematics is so fashionable as the study of classics. I think that makes a great de.al of difference. From the very beginning there has l>eeu a distaste for mathematics. There is another difference, which is rather an invidious one, and thiit is the difference between the food of the collegers and the oppidans. In the former case it is very good, but I think it is without sufficient change. I was speaking to a medical man about it, and his remark was that boys like that ought to have a greater variety iu their food than they have. 6881. {Sir S. Northcote.) Was that the opinion of a medical man residing at Windsor ?— Yes ; Mr. Ellison. PUBLIC SCHOOLS COMMISSION : — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 237 6882. Do you know ■vvhctlier any medical man is of opinion tiiat tlie eollojrors are inferior to the oppidans in physiqne ? — I do not know. 6883. Do they iu any way suffer from inferiority of treatment ? — No ; but I know the boys themselves ETON. liave complained of the monotony of the diet. 6884. {Mr. Thompson.) Is not, as a general rule, -^ct. £. Hah. monotony iu diet condemued ? — Yes. ,, ,"1 ^„^^ 15 July 18C2. Adjourned till to-morrow. ' Victoria Street, Wednesday, 16th July 1862. PRESENT : Earl of Clarendon. Lord Lyttelton. Hon. E. TwisLETON. Rev. W. H. Thompson. H. Halford Vaughan, Esq. The earl OF CLARENDON in the Chair. H. Tarver, Esq., examined- 6885. {Lord Clarendon.) I believe, Mr. Tarver, you are the French master at Eton ? — I am. 6886. How long liave you been so ? — For 20 years. For 10 years as sole French master, and 10 years as assistant to my father. 6887. You succeeded your father ? — Yes. 6888. You were born iu England, I believe ? — Yes. 6889. Have you lived much abroad ? — A great deal, ily father sent me to France on purpose to prepare myself to succeed him or to help him. 6890. To qualify yourself to be his assistant ? — Y'es. 6891. How long have yon been sole master? — 10 years ; since 1852. My father died in 1852, and I succeeded him immediately. 6892. What assistance have you had during the 10 years that you have been sole master ? — 1 began with the Italian master. Dr. Hawtrey, who was then the Head Master, wished me to take him as my assistant. 6893. For tlie purpose of teaching French ? — Yes ; he was my first assistant. 6894. Why did Dr. Hawtrey wish you to take an Italian ? — Dr. Hawtrey enforced it. He seemed to be desirous of giving him something to do, and I had to take him as my assistant. 6895. Had he had anything to do with Eton ? — He had been Italian master for about two years before. 6896. He had no pupils, I suppose ? — He had very few pupils. He continued Italian master and at the same time my assistant ; but Dr. Hawtrey did it provisionally. I had a brother who was to be pre- pared to assist me, and until lie was qualified I had to make use of the assistance of Signor Siuibaldi. 6897. Was this Italian gentleman competent to teach Frencli, do you think ? — No, I think not ; it was rather against the progress of the boys. 6898. Was it that he had little knowledge of French ? — His knowledge of the French language was very great, and his fluency was vei-y great ; but he was not at all a man calculated to impart what he knew. 6899. That, you think, applied to his Italian as well as to his French ? — I think it did. 6900. Was his an Italian accent ? — Slightly. It was an unpleasant accent. 6901. How long did he remain your assistant ? — I cannot exactly tell you, but I think two yeai-s. 6902. He was forced upon you contiary to your wishes, simply as a provision for himself? — Yes. 6903. And he was in reality of no assistance to you ? — He was of no assistance. He reduced my pupil room to about 60 boys from 100 ; I began with 110. 6904. Was Dr. Hawtrey the Provost then ? — No ; the Head Master. 6905. Was he aware of this ? — I can hardly say whether he was aware of it. I took Signor Sinibakli very reluctantly, and tried to dispense with him several times, but Dr. Hawtrey insisted. 690G. Therefore he must have been aware of it ? — I do not know that I told him iu so many words that I did not think Signor Siuibaldi was a proper French master, we both of us looked upon him as a man of elegant attainments. 6907. But the consequence of his being appointed was that it diminished your already small class ? — Yes. 6908. How long did he remain with you ? — Two years. 6909. Till 1854 ?— Yes. 6910. How came he to be removed ? — My brother was then qualified. He had been sent to Paris to be qualified, and he h.ad got testimonials from 'M. Nisard to say that he was a good scliolar, could speak French well, and had a proper accent ; and he came to help me in the place of Signor Siuibaldi, Signor Siuibaldi remaining Italian master for some time. 6911. He returned to teaching Italian ? — Yes. 6912. But without attracting pupils? — Yes; ho soon left altogether. 6913. How long did your brother remain with you ? — Not more than a year. 6914. Did the pupils come back to you ?~They had hardly time to find out the difference. My brother was of great assistance to me because he perfectly understood teaching, and was a very good French scholar ; but he got a better appointment and left. 6915. Did you have any other person in his place ? — 1 then took no permanent assistant ; I called in assistance on different occasions. I have had, since that time, four assistants. 6916. At dirtereut periods ? — At different periods. 6917. Only one at a time ? — Only one at a time. 6918. What has been the .average number of your pupils ? — The numbers increased from the time my brother left ; it went on increasing till I think it must have been about three years ago, when it reached the number of 130 pupils. 6919. Is that the maximum ? — Yes. 6920. You called iu assistance on what occa- sions ? — Generally at times when the boys have had less time at their disposal for French, and more time for play. Chiefly in the summer months ; it was then I called in assistance. I found the boys only having a small number of hours to dispose of for French, and coming then in very lai'ge numbers instead of being classed out as I wished them to be ; my powers were inefficient to teach them, and I called iu assistance, so as to divide the classes. 6921. I thought you said it was in the summer months, when the boys were occupied with play and did not come to the French ? — Play takes up a great deal of their time ; and the hours of French are diminished in consequence. 6922. They come altogether ? — Yes ; for instance, at this present season of the year, I am deprived of two hours in the evening which they can devote to French in the Christmas and Lent school times. They come to me now in the morning in a rush. Gg 3 H. Tarver, Esq, 16 July 1SC2. 238 PUBLIC SCHOOLS COilMISSION :— MINUTES OF EVIDENCK ETON. They make my classes too numerous to contend with ' very often. If I have a Large number of pupils, I Il.Tarver.Esq. am obliged to call in assistance. 6923. Since 1853 you have had four assistants ? — lRJnlyl8G2. y^g^ ' 6924. You appointed the last one in 1860? — In I860 the last was appointed, I hoping that he would be a permanent assistant. 6925. He has left you ? — Yes. From some reason or another, which I cannot very well solve, the numbers of my pupils diminished from the time he came to me, and it paid neither of us, so he went away. . . 6926. To what numbers have your pupils dimi- nished ?— Now I have only 75 boys. When I called this gentleman in I was having 130 ; and I had been then for a year without assistance, thinking I did not want it, or only having a man for a few months ; but I was suddenly overwhelmed with pupils, and I called in assistance. It was in 1859 that my numbers grew to a large amount, and I took the last assistant, as I hoped permanently. 6927. When, in 1859 ?— He began in 1860. I was negotiating about it in 1859. He entered on his duties in May 1860. 6928. How long did he remain ? — He remained with me a year and one school time. It must be a year and four months. 6929. So that he left you at Easter, 1861 ? — Yes. 6930. {Lord Lytlelton.) Have you had no assis- tance since that time ? — Not permauenaly, merely at times when I wanted it. I could have got on very well without, but it was represented to me by some of the authorities that I ought to be assisted, owing, no doubt, to the sort of api)eal the public made to Eton in various newspapers. When it was intimated to me in this way that I had better call in another assistant, I got a gentleman from the ueighljourhood to come in and assist me, 6931. {Lord Clarendon.) Was the gentleman whom you appointed in 1860 a Frenchman ? — Yes. I went to Paris on purpose to secure him. He had a very good appointment under the French Government, which he now has gone back to. 6932. He did not answer ? — He left me because it did not answer. 6933. While he was with you, do you think that had no influence in bringing pupils that you had an experienced man and a Frenchman ? — It seemed to have no influence whatever. From the time M. Leram- bert entered, my pupils began to diminish. I rather think it may have been owing to a little enforcement of the work which wo tried to pat on with the assis- tance of the Head Master at the time. It is optional w^ith the boys to leave off French when they like. They found this was inconvenient, and the very next half-year after this gentleman came they began to drop oflr. 6934. What do you mean by "enforcement of " work " ? — I should have said " enforcement of times " for work." The Head Master, Dr. Goodford, ap- pointed certain hours when those who learnt French were to attend, so that what pupils I had were obliged to come to their lessons within two hours in the morning. That seemed to come very much in their way, and many left off. 6935. If a boy begins at the beginning of the school- time to come to you in French, can he leave off during the school-time ? — No. I ha\c never had the case of a boy leaving off during school-time. I have fre- quently had the case of a boy beginning one school- time and not returning to me the second. 6936. Would the Head Master interfere supposing that the boy was to leave you, or did leave you, in the middle of the school-time ? — I should, if I lost sight of him for any length of time, send his name up to the Head Master, who would call for him, and would not, I think, sanction his leaving off. The present Head Master does not appear to like to interfere. My re- ports to him are unavailing. I do not get anything from him, but Dr. Goodford would always take notice of any rejiort I sent to him. 6937. The present Head Master will not interfere in what respect ? — He takes no notice of the reports, at least to my knowledge. The present Head Master is newly appointed, and perhaps has not yet had time to take the matter into consideration. 6938. {Lord Lyttelton.) But there are boys whose parents wish them to learn ? — Yes. 6939. {Lord Clarendon.) What sort of reports have you been in the habit of sending ? — Reports con- taining names of boys who did not appear at the lessons. 6940. Misconduct ? — Neglect of the work. In cases of misconduct I am in the habit of writing imme- diately to the boy's tutor. 6941. And yon have reported them several times to the Head Master ? — I have reported it to the pre- sent Head Master. 6942. And he never interfered ? — He has only had two of my reports. On the first occasion he called the boys to him and spoke to them. On the second occa- sion he did not interfere. He sent me back a message which I cannot act upon, or at least by the time I acted it would be too late to call the boys to account. 6943. What was the message ? — The message was that I had better find out why they did not appear ; and if there were no excuse for them to send him their names. It would be a long time before I found that out. I can only send for information by notes. I have not the means of the usual messengers of the school, the prepostors, to apply with. I could only send notes by a servant. It might be a long time before I received answers, or saw those boys again, and it would come very hard if they were to have to account for the delinquencies a long while after the offence. 6944. I suppose neither you nor the boys consider that the Head Master attaches any importance to the study of French ? — They certainly do not. After the first report I sent to him, when he took a slight notice of it, they came rather triumphantly to say that the visitation had been very mild ; that they had merely been spoken to. 6945. In what manner do you instruct them in French, what is your mode of proceeding ? — 1 re- quire that they should come twice or three times a week, that they should attend at two lessons in which they read and construe, ^\Tite by ray dictation, translate Euglish into French or French into English according to their capacity, and these lessons l.tst an hour. 1 endeavour to collect them in classes of 10 or 12, but very often my cl.ass is reduced to one, two, or three. In addition to these two seances or lessons, I require that they shall bring an exercise of some kind, a piece of composition or English translated into French, or if not capable of that, that they shall do a grammatical exercise. 6946. Do you find that the generality of the boys who come to you are at all prepared in French ? — Almost all Eton boys that come to me know some- thing of French Ijefore they come. They have learnt it before they come to school, but generally there has been a lapse of several years. 6947. That is those who come to you ? — Yes. 6948. Does any boy come regularly to you throughout the whole time he has been at Eton, or is it only by fits and starts ? — I should say no boy has ever come to me through the whole time. I have always a few boys in what they call the lower school, but they do not stay with me all the time that they are at Eton. I do not think that I could give au instance of a boy who had stayed with me all the time he had been at school. 6949. Do the boys in the upper school come to you ? — It is principally the upper school. 6950. Have you any boys from the fourth form ? . — Yes, and boys in the remove. Generally the pre- ponderance is of boys in the fifth form. 6951. Have you any from the lower school? — I have now four boys from the lower school. PUBLIC SCHOOLS COMMISSION: — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE, 23a 6952. Do you consiiler lliat tlicy make fair pro- gress ? — Tlie boj-s ill tlio lower school generally do. 6953. I mean your pupils generally? — I think they do. I am satisfied with all those who come, but the misfortune is that so many things war against their attendance. Those who come make fair pro- gress. 6954. It is tliree hours a week, is it not ? — Yes. 6955. (^Lord Lyttelton.) What time in the day is it ? — I devote nearly my whole day to them. 6956. What time of day does a boy come ? — The times vary according to the season. From 8 to 9 in the morning, or from 10 to 11, and from 4 to 5, three times a week, are invariable all the year round. In the winter and Lent school times, from 7 till 9 every evening. When my numbers are large I give from 12 to 2, in addition to the other times. 6957. {Lord Clarendon.) Tha fact is, I suppose, there being no encouragement to it, and it being looked upon not as part of the school work, there is a want of stimulus to the boys to learn and improve themselves in French ? — There is very little to stimu- late them to improvement. Encouragement was given by the late Prince Consort to the study of modern languages, and Dr. Goodford himself, acting, as ho told me, upon the request of many persons, to intro- duce it somehow into the work, allowed boys on being examined in Jifth form trials to fake up a French paper if they liked. This used to get a (qw bo3's the benefit of some extra marks. The present Head Master has discontinued the practice ; but there are so many things that are so much more important to them than an extra ; a boy is not obliged to be pre- pared in French to rise in the school, and as they are obliged to be prepared in Latin and Greek to rise in the school, they lay French aside when they liavc their trials coming on. 6958. I suppose you would consider the state of proficiency in French, and the mode in which the instruction in French can be imp.irted at Eton, as very unsatisfactory ? — Very unsatisfactory indeed. 6959. Both iu its workiug and iu its results ? — Yes ; though I have some boys who are uncommonly good scholars. 6960. {Lord L.tjitelfon.') It must be so as long as it is mere extra work ? — Yes. 6961. {Lord Clarendon.) Have you ever con- sidered what measures you would recommend to have it placed on a better footing, and to produce better results ? — Certainly ; if it remains optional a great deal might be done, even in that case, to bring forth better results ; if the Head Master were to make it a point to take cognizance of all those who entered to learn, to have a list of their names, and to name hours for their coming to their lessons, and to require to bo informed when they did not attend, at each of those hours, as is done for every other part of the school work, then the boys would know that they must come and they would have a chance of being taught. As it is, they hardly consider French as a duty, and are unscrupulous in shirking their lessons. Anything is pleaded as an excuse by a boy who misses a French lesson. 6962. Whom should you complaui to, his tutor or the Head Master ? — I think the Head Master is the person who ought to take notice of it. 6963. To whom do you complain ? — For many years I have complained to the tutors, but the tutors have got sickened and disgusted with the complaints, so that very few of them take any notice of my reports. I fear that they remain in their rooms, where they may be placarded, but no further notice is taken. 6964. What is placarded ? — The complaint is sometimes pinned up against the wall. 6965. Who by ? — By the tutor ; I very often hear that that is the notice taken of my report. 6966. {Blr. Twi.ilcton.) That is supposed to be a delicate attention to your report without inflicting too much pain on the pupil ? — I rather think so. I think on the whole the pupils seem to think it ought to be better attended to. And I believe it to be tho opinion of some tutors, as it is my own, that the thing should, be dealt with by the head, and not by them. 6967. {Lord Clarendon.) In short, in teaching French, yours is a very up-hill work. You are teaching boys who do not care to learn, and the masters do not care to support you ? — Exactly so. 6968. Then in this plan which you propose for ameliorating the system you do not even contemplate putting French on the same footing as mathematics ? — In this plan French would certainly be on a differ- ent footing to mathematics, which are obligatorj'. 6969. That is your notion of improvement, still to make it optional, but to get the authorities to fako greater cognizance that such a subject is taught ? — : It would be a great improvement were more notice taken of the study, and proper allowances made for it. My notion is that the boys must attend, and that they are not to shirk their lessons for any reason. The alteration of school work arising from repeated ir- regular weeks, the consequent changes in tutors' private business, leave, and punishments, all drive French and such extra studies to the wall. 6970. In short, having been 20 years French Master, your great aim now is to be recognized ? — Yes. 6971. {L^ord Li/ttelton.) Do you not think the study could bo made obligatory ? — It could, certainly, and it would be greatly to the benefit of all the boys ; I think they would like it if it were so. I hope I may be understood to give the preference to the obligatory sj'stem over the optional. 6972. Do you think there would be any difficulty iu having a sufficient number of masters to teach so large a number of boys ? — I think four masters might teach the boys. 6973. {Mr. Tioisleton.) Might teach all the boys ? — Yes. Four men would be enough to give two lessons a week to all, and look over preparatory work done for each lesson. For three lessons a week it would require wore men. 6974. {Mr. Thompson.) Including yourself? — Yes. 6975. {Lord Lyttelton.) Have you any difficulty iu keeping order in your class ? — The boys are a very well disposed kind of boys now. I have no difficulty in keepiug order in my class ; the classes are .small; it is more a private matter than anything else. 6976. But an Englishman, so well conversant with French as you ai'e, is not very easy to find ? — I know of very few. My brother who assisted me is so, and one Frenchman who assisted me, who is an English master aliroad. 6977. A Frenchman would be rather at a dis- advantage, would he not ? — A Frenchman would require support. But there ought to be no reason why Frenchmen projicrly supported and considered should not do the work. All the Frenchmen I have had have had a great deal of difficulty, through the imperfection of the system. I have had as much trouble iu teaching the Frenchman to keep order as in teaching the boys to speak French. 6978. {Mr. Tliompso7i.) Is it Frenchmen par- ticularly who feel this difficulty in keeping English boys in order. Does the German master find the same difficulty ? — The German master has a small number of boys in small classes, and his complaint is generally about non-attendance ; not for breach of order or disrespect. 6979. {Lord I^yttelton.) Do you make them talk French ht all ? — Wherever I can be understood I always make a point of talking French. 6980. Do you make them talk ? — I try to make them answer me in French ; those who can speak always do, but I cannot at present establish anything like a general mode of teaching conversation. 6981. You can make them translate, of course ? —Yes. 6982. Do many of them come well prepared in pronunciation and accent ? — Yes, many of them, among the small boys particularly. ETON. II. Tarver, Esq, IG July 1SC2. 210 PUBLIC SCH00I5 COJUIISSION:— MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. ETON. 6983. {Mr. Vauf/han.) You .. {Lord Lyttclton.) Do you think that three- fourths of them could read standard French books ? — I should say that half of them could read French. 7007. On leaving? — Boys do not stay with me veiy long ; very ofttn not more than a year. Any boy who stays with me three years, which I consider to be a proper time for learning it, would do so. 7008. {Mr. Tliinnpson.) You think about three years would be sufficient ? — It would be better for a boy to have four, but three years, under proper dis- cipline and proper regulations, ought to enable a boy to read a French book. 7009. With the quantity of time he is able to devote to it ? — Yes ; that is three hours a week. 7010. {Mr. Twislefo/i.) How many hours a week in lessons ? — Two houi"s a week in lessons, and some preparatory work, or three hours a week without any prejiiiratory work. I generally arrange it in that way. 7011. (Lord Li/ ff elf on.) The three hours a week includes the preparatory work ? — Three honi-s a week is what I give : two hours and preparatory work done by the lioy and lirought to me, or else three hours a week all of them with me, and no preparatory work required. 7012. {Lord Clarendon.) I think you said you have an assistant master now ? — I have not at present. 7013. I thought you said you had called in one ?- — I have discontinued him now for two school times. 7014. You said it was somebody from the neigh- bourhood ? — Yes, Mr. Ledune. He may be known. He is a pastor in the Protestant religion for the French people in London. He happened to be in the neighbourhood, and he came to assist me. 7015. You discontinued him ? — Yes, because the boys went on decreasing, and I found I managed them quite well enough alone. 7016. What are your emoluments derived from? — Simply from the fees of the boys. Ten guineas a year for each boy. 7017. You say the average number is about 80? — Eighty is about my average number, I have now 75. 7018. Out of anything you receive you pay your assistant ? — Yes, I have paid an assistant up to the last two school times. PUBLIC SCHOOLS COMMISSION : — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 241 7019. {3fr. Thompson.) Have you any private pupils ? — I consider them all private, I have none to whom I give anything extra, l)ut I lay myself entirely open to all of them. I sometimes give seven lx>urs a day, and there is plenty of time for them to come and have their lessons singly or in classes. 7020. You have no l>o3's at a higher rate ? — No. 7021. (Lord Clarendon.) What do you consider your status in the school ? Do you consider tliat you rank with the assistant mathematical masters ? What is your position ? — My position is merely that of nn annexe, as a sort of extra person altogether who ranks with no one. 7022. (Lord Lt/ltelton.) You have nothing to do with the school apart from your classes ? — Nothing whatever. 7023. (Lord Clarendon.) So that you are hardly recognized either by the masters or by the boys ? — - Not recognized as a professor. 7024. Not recognized as an Eton master ? — Simply OS a person holding the privilege to teach French. 7025. (Mr. Twislelon.) You are a pleasure which may be dispensed with ? — Yes ; a mere objet de luxe. 7026. (Lord Lyttelton.) Do you live within the college precincts ? — I do not live there. I have my pupil room within the college precincts, which I have to hire of the college. 7027. Where is that ? — That is where the Chris- topher used to be. 7028. (Lord Clarendon.) Are your class rooms sufficient ? — Yes, I have plenty of room. 7029. (Mr. Thompson.) Have you a boarding Louse ? — No, I have not. 7030. You might I suppose if you applied for one ? — I should be very glad of one, but do not see how to obtain one. 7031. (Lord Clarendon.) Did you ever apply for n boarding-house ? — Sometime ago T applied to Dr. Goodford, but he told me he was engaged to so many mathematio.nl masters that I gave it up as a hopeless case, and I have not applied since; I believe they have a previous claim. 7032. You do not think of taking any house ?— I should be very glad indeed to take a house now. I fancy teaching French is a thing that cannot last forever, it might possibly be a kind of retirement. 7033. Did Dr. Goodford give you to understand that he would recognize the claims of the French master to have a house ? — Yes, Dr. Goodford made no objection, he did not seem to imply that I might not hold a house, but that he was engaged to so many before me. 7034. He did not consider that teaching French was a bar ? — Not in the least, I am very well recog- nized and on friendly terms with everyone. 7035. (Mr. Thompson.) Were you educated at Eton yourself ? — Yes. 7036. Did you take your degree in the University afterwards ? — No, I took my degree in the French University, the Sorbonne. 7037. Were you on the foundation ? — I was on the foundation a very short time. 7038. (Mr. Twisleton.) If French were made an obligatory part of the education at Eton have you con- sidered how the difficulty should be dealt with of some boys being the sons of French parents, or boys who have been educated in Fi-ance, or who have hiid special advantage for knowing French, so that they may be first rate French scholars when they corne ? — I have not considered how this case is to be met. It is not of very frequent occurrence. I have noticed that these boys are frequently beaten by other more studious boys who have learnt French in England. 7039. How would you deal with the difficulty of letting their knowledge of French count as to their status in the school ? — That would be rather a diffi- culty. I think it would induce competition among the others to try and get beyond them, and those who are more behindhand would be able to contend with them after some time. Supposing French were made compulsory, and all the lower part of the school were I. 16 July 1862. learning, by the end of a year we should have a large ETON, body of boys prepared. 7040. WouWnot the son of a French parent, or H.Tarver,Esq. a boy who has been educated in France, have very great advantages ? — I think he would ; he ought to have. 7041. And place him higher in the school thau his talents realy deserved, unless that point were fully met in some other w.ay ? — Those kind of boys would be in every part of the school. At present the only thing open to competition is the Albert scholar- sliip. I sujjpose you would imply the case of its being introduced into trials ; in that case all those boys would be sure to take the lead, if they hap- pened to bo studious, and could add grammatical and analytical knowledge to their conversational acquire- ments, and knew something of French literature. 7042. Have you considered how you would deal with such cases, if it wore made obligatory on all the boys to learn French, and the French told upoa their places in the school ? — No, I certainly have not considered that ; but those boys are very often beaten. 7043. (Mr. Vaughan.) Have you many boys who as far as you can make out have learnt it from their nursery ? — Some. Not many who h.ave learnt it from the nursery without a discontinuance. 7044. And they have made it a sort of vernacular in that way ? — Some boys must have learnt it like that. Some have told me that they have learnt it from their sister's governess, but unfortunately very often those boys lose their power ; they come knowing French well and from the Eton system not making any provision for their studying it, they very often lose what they have learnt. 7045. Do you observe at all whether there is any difference in those who have learnt it grammatically and those who have learnt as .a sort of half-native tongue as to their power of retaining it ? — There is a very great dilTerence. Boys who have learnt it grammatically almost always retain it. Still there ia nothing like the double mode of learning, and no reason why boys shonld not be taught something useful in learning to talk early. If it is so, and there has been no interiujition in his learning, .a boy will undoubtedly make a good pupil. The disappointing ones are those who assert that they used to speak nothing but French at a certain infantine age, and who, on resuming it several years after, find they know nothing. 7046. Have j-ou a greater difficulty in teaching the grammar to a boy who has once learned to speak it in that w.ay than to a boy commencing it through the grammai' ? — I have the greatest difficulty in the world in teaching a boy grammar who has learnt it by hearing only. 7047. Is it to be accounted for by the fact that as there is no harmony between the one part of his knowledge and the other, and that .as he is very much more advanced in his power of using the language than in his power of analysing it, or using it upon principle, to do the latter by grammatical rules is disgusting to him ? — Yes. 7048. Do j'ou mean to say that in that sense it is a bad foundation for teaching ? — I do not think it is. I think a boy who has learnt to pronounce well if he were .allowed full time to learn French at Eton would have the benefit of having learnt to pro- nounce and might be taught the gramm.ar by extra trouble. I have a boy now who came to me speaking French rather agreeably ; we used alw.ays to talk together in French. This boy had to do his school- work as well, and his French has gone back. I have the greatest difficulty in teaching him the French grammar. I find the reason of his not coming to me, is that he gets so many punishments in school and is so behindh.and in his schoolwork, that he gives it up altogether. In the course of my teaching, in- stances of this kind have been numerous ; they are always difficult cases to treat ; they come to me at an age when they ought to learn grammar, so as to ba Hh 24,2 ETON. H.Taricr,Esq. 10 July 18G2. PUBLIC SCHOOLS COMMISSIOK :— MINUTES OF EVIDENCK. able to learn how to wi-ite the French they have been taught to speak. Unfortunately, boys of this kind are^'more liable to avoid the work than others. The discontinuauce at a certain age is what is fatal to them. If they come to Eton unprepared in their classical and mathematical work, everything has to give way to their making up for lost time in these matters ; and as French is not allowed for by the system, they only get it by fits and starts, and neces- sarily go back. The most eflScacious means of causing French to be studied at Eton, optionally or otherwise, would be to make a rule that no boy can rise in the school without it ; that in all the school trials there should be French papers, as well as classical and mathe- matical ; that all the boys should do them, and that marks be given them for it according as they have dotie. Victoria Street, Thursday, 20th November 1862. PRESENT 1 Earl of Clarendon. Earl of Devon. Lord Lyttelton. Sir SiAi-FORD H. Northcote, Bart, Hon. Edward Twisleton. Eev. W. H. Thompson. H. Halford Vaughan, Esq. J}. A. H. Mit- chell, Ssq. The earl OF CLARENDON in the Chair. B. A. H. Mitchell, Esq., examined. at 7049. (Lord Clarendon.) How long were you 20 Nov. 1862. Eton, Mr. Mitchell ? — Six years. 7050. How long have you left? — I left in July 1861. 7051. You are now at Balliol College ? — Yes. 7052. You were an oppidan at Eton ? — Yes. 7053. Will you give us an account of what the social relations were between the oppidans and the collegers. Do you consider they were upon the same footing ? — No, certainly not on the same footing. The lower part of the collegers scarcely mixed at all with the lower part of the oppidans. Those of the sixth form who were collegers, and those who were distinguished for cricket, or any athletic game, mixed with the others more. During the last year or two I do not think they have mixed so much, because they have not been distinguished in cricket, or in other games so much, but only in reading. 7054. Would any colleger, who was distinguished in cricket, join with the oppidans ? — Yes ; as much, in fact, as his position enabled him to do. Of course he could not mix to the same extent, because he lived separately from the oppidans ; but he associated with the oppidans. 7055. And the oppidans had no objection ? — No ; not at all. 7056. Was it because they recognized his merit in cricket ? — No ; but that gave him a sort of introduc- tion to the oppidans, and after that he mixed with them more. 7057. As to the boats, did they join in the boats ? — No, they had nothing to do with the boats. 7058. No collegers were ever in the boats ? — No, never. 7059. Do you think that the general feeling at Eton among the oppidans was friendly to the collegers ? — Well, the lower parts of the school were not. When boys went there first they generally were rather prejudiced against them ; but when they got higher in the school they saw things in a different light. They looked on them as part of themselves more than when in the lower forms of the school. 7060. With respect to the gowu, do you think that there was any objection to them on account of their wearing a gown ? — No, I do not think so. 7061. As far as you know, did the collegers object to the gown themselves ? — No, not as far as I know ; I never heard that they objected to it. 7062. You did not hear that the gown was un- popular, or that they wished to get rid of it ? — No, I never heard that. 7063. Do you think that upon the whole the habits of the collegers were less expensive than those of the oppidans ? — I think they were on the whole. None of them joined in the boats, and that forms a great deal of tlie expense. 7064. Was it the notion that they did not join the boats on account of the expense ?-^No, I do not think so at all. I do not know how the notion arose. 7065. (Sir S. Northcote.) Do not the collegers go above-bridge now in boats ? — Yes. 7066. You know they used not to go above-bridge ? — No ; but they do now. 7067. (Lord Lytteltoti.) Not in the long boats? — No. 7068. (Sir S. Northcote.) Did they ever pull in matches against the others ? — No. 7069. (Lord Clarendon.) You consider that the collegers have less expensive habits on the whole ? — Yes, I think they have. 7070. And that their position in the school as col- legers rather protects them from expensive habits and they are not called upon for so much ? — Yes, I think it does. 7071. (Sir S. Northcote.) Do they get elected into the debating society ? — 'Yes, freely. 7072. (Lord Lyttelton.) Do they give them leaving books ? — Yes, I think so. 7073. Do they walk about together ? — Yes, if they know each other well. 7074. Do they breakfast together ever ? — No, I do not think they do. 7075. With regard to the gown, do you suppose, if the gown were left off, it would at all diminish the distinction between the collegers and the oppidans. The collegers would be still perfectly well known in the school ? — I think so ; I do not think it would make any difference, 7076. (Sir S. Northcote.) Do they go to the same bathing places ? — Yes. 7077. Even the lower collegers ? — Yes. 7078. (Lord Devon.) During the six years you were there, did you observe any difference in that respect. Was there more or less intimacy at the end of your time than you think there was at the beginning ? — There was less, I think. 7079. Although there were fewer who distinguished themselves in the games, do you think there were more or less who were distinguished intellectually ? — I should say there were more. 7080. (Lord Clarendon.) You think that the intel- lectual superiority and scholarship of the collegers is an acknowledged fact in Eton now ? — Yes; I think so, decidedly. 7081. Can you attribute that to any cause ? — I do not know, except there have been more collegers who have obtained the Newcastle scholarships than oppidans, 7082. (Mr. Thompson.) They have the same debat- ing society ? — Yes ; they belong to the s.ame society, but the collegers have a separate one of their own. fUBUC SCHOOLS COMMISSION:- -MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 248 7063. As a general rule are the collegers as dis- tinguished in the debates as the oppidans ? — Yes, I think quite. 7084. More so ? — No, I do not think more so. 7085. Hardly so much in proportion to their classical attainments ? — No, I think not. 7086. {Lord Lyttelton.) Where is that separate collegers' society ? — They hold it in the college some- where. I have never been in it. 7087. {Mr. Thompson.) Is a boy thought more highly of for speaking well at the Union, or for gain- ing school prizes and distinctions ? — For gaining school prizes. 7088. Even among the oppidans ? — Yes, I think so. I do not think the speaking is very much thought of. 7089. {Mr. Vattghati.) Is there any feeling of social superiority upon the part of the oppidans to the collegers, do you think ? — Yes, I think there is. 7090. Do you know, at all, what is the cause of that. Could you say what the feeling of the boys is that produces that feeling of social superiority on the part of the oppidans ? — No, I do not think" I can explain it ex-ictly ; a sort of custom, I think. 7091. I suppose they are elected very early, and before there has been an opportunity of any friendship being formed at the college ? — Yes ; very few of the collegers come to Eton as oppidans. 7092. Not many are elected from the class of oppi- dans ? — Very few. 7093. Are those elected at a very early age generally ? — Yes. 7094. So that they grow up, as it were, in the school, entirely within college walls ? — Yes. 7095. Is there a feeling among the oppidans that working is rather a slow thing ? — I think there is rather a feeling of that sort. 7096. Do you think it is at all looked upon by the oppidans as a natuv.Tl distinction between the oppidans and collegers, that the work of the collegers is to read that that is not their line, and that it is rather a slow thing in consequence to do so ? — I think they do. They look on the collegers as having to work for their living. 7097. Does reading become, or not, at all a badge of a man who has to work in life for his living ? — I do not think it has that effect at all. 7098. {Mr. T/wmpso».) Do you think that an oppidan who worked hard would be thought worse of by his fellow oppidans ? — No ; he is not associated with them so much. If he can do anything else, if he can row, or play cricket, or any other athletic game, I do not think he is thought the worse of for reading. 7099. {Lord Lyttelton.) If he is successful in the school work, and also a popular boy, and good at games, his success in the school work would add to his character in the school ? — Yes. 7100. {3Ir. Vaughan.) Suppose that character iso- lated, that he was remarkable for nothing as an oppidan, but for being distinguished in intellectual pursuits, how would that place him in the opinion of the oppidans ? — They would rather look down on him, I think. 7101. {Lord Lyttelton.) He would not be exposed to be bullied, would he ? — No. 7102. {Mr. Thompson.) Supposing that besides being a hard-working boy and a good scholar, he were brilliant in conversation, we will say, and clever and fluent at the Union, without taking any part in athletic exercises, would he still be looked down upon ? — Very likely not, if he were generally liked. 7103. If he were thought clever, in fact ? — If he made himself agreeable to every one. 7104. {Mr. Vaughan.) Have you known instances of oppidans who did really succeed in the school studies having time and inclination to mix with the other boys sufficiently to gain a popular character ? — Yes ; I have known instances. 7105. {Lord Clarendon.) With respect to the government, — the authority that is vested in the boys at Eton, — what should you say are the duties of the prajpostors now ? — They have to mark their divisions in school, and to see that they are all there. They have to get the excuses of those who are absent from their tutors. If the absentees are ill, or have any other reason for being out of school, the tutor writes the excuse down on a piece of paper, and it goes up to the Head Master. 7106. In short, they are responsible for the appear- ance of the classes ? — Yes. 7107. Responsible to whom? — To the Head Master. The bill is taken to the Head Master ; they have a bill with the names of the boys who are absent written down. 7108. But their duties are not limited to that ; they have some other duties, have they not ? — The fifth form praepostors have no other duty, except to take up the complaints to the Head Master and carry notes about during the school time. 7109. Have the sixth form the power of inflicting punishment ? — Yes ; but they seldom exercise it. 7110. What punishments, and for what offences ? — They use their own discretion about the offences. They can set a punishment, or they can " lick" a boy. 7111. They are allowed to " lick" a boy ? — Yes. 7112. And may they do it on the spur of the moment, or have they to consider the offence with others before they punish the boy ? — They can do it on the spur of the moment if they like. 7113. {Lord Lyttelton.) Among the oppidans it is very rare ? — Very rare. 7114. But you have known cases? — Yes, I have known cases, generally in the house, not out of the house. 7115. {Lord Clarendon.) Are those offences for which the sixth form would " lick" a boy, school offences ? — Yes ; generally. They are inflicted for not fagging, or some such broach of school discipline. 7116. If a sixtli form lioy discovered a boy commit- ting any moral otlenco, — lying, we will say, — would he " lick" him for that or report him ? — If he did anything he would '• lick" him. 7117. Would a sixth form boy consider himself Ijound to notice any moral offence, such as lying, drinking, stealing, or anything of that sort. Would he consider himself bound, as sixth form, to notice that ? — I do not think he would notice lying or drinking. Stealing he would, certainly. 7118. But lying or drinking he would not consider himself bound to take notice of? — He would not report it to the authorities; he might punish the boy himself. 7119. If he saw him going into or coming out of a puldic house, would a sixth form boy take any notice of that ? — I do not think so. 7120. Is there any cheek upon a sixth form boy as to the punishment that he inflicts ? — No ; ho uses his own discretion, I think. 7121. Supposing he were to "lick" a boy very severely indeed, more severely than he ought to do, either for the offence, or for the boj' himself, is there any check upon that ; would that be brought before the master's notice ? — Yes ; the boy would probably go to his tutor. 7122. The boy himself ? — The boy who was beaten. 7123. Would he not be " looked upon " for that ? — Not if he was unjustly licked. 7124. A boy does not get notice that he will be " licked," or anything else ; and there is no power of appeal before any punishment is inflicted ? — No, I think not. 7125. Is " licking" the only punishment. Can he set him an imposition ? — Yes, he can if he likes. 7126. The sixth form can set an imposition? — Yes ; but it is not usual to do so. 7127. For what sort of offences would an imposition be set ? — Generally for disobedience. If a sixth form finds a boy making a noise in a house, and he tells him to be quiet, he would probably punish him if he disobeyed his orders. 7128. {Lord Lyttelton.) Did you ever know an imposition set by an oppidan of the sixth form ? — ■ Yes ; in the house, never out of the house. Hh 2 ETUIS. li. A. H. Mit- chell, Esq. 20 Nov. 1862. 244 PUBLIC SCHOOLS COMMISSION: — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. ETON. If. A. H. Mil. chcU^ Esq, 20 Nov. 1862. 7129. Have you known it half a dozen times ? — No, I think not. 7130. {Lord Clarendon.) Do you thmk that that system of punishment is generally ap]irove(l of, that it is sanctioned by pu'blic opinion, and that it is considered as just and fairly administered ? — I do not think it is much liked. I do not think the punish- ment by the sixth form is liked at all. 7131. Is the reason that it is not considered fair, or do not they like to be punished by a boy? — It is not tliought the thing. 7132. {Lord Li/ttelton.) The sixth foi-m themselves do not much like it ? — No ; there is a sort of feeling against it. 7133. {Lord Clarendon.) You would not think tliat that part of the system of punishment works par- ticularly well at Eton ? — No ; I do not think it does. I do not think boys require it so much. 7134. In short, it has not the support of public opinion at the school .' — No, it has not. 7135. What are the duties of the head of a house ? — He is supposed to keep the boys in order, to sec that they do not make an unnecessary noise, or kick up a disturbance in any way. 7136. He has nothing to do -with trheir lessons ? — No, nothing at all in that way. 7137. He is responsible for order in the house to the master ? — Yes. 7138. {LordLyttelton.) Thfi master or the dame would consult the head of the house in any case of difficulty ? — Yes, generally speaking. 7139. {Lord Devon.) Supposing the power of the sixth form were subject to those qualifications which exist in some other schools, namely, that a certain time must dapse before any corporal punishment is inflicted by a sixth form boy on another, or that it be the rule that two others of the sixth form should be present at the time of punishment, and that their opinion should be taken as to the fitness of the punish- ment, what should you say would be the effect of such changes as those ? — I think that punishment would be hardly ever inflicted. 7140. Should you consider that an improvement on the present system or not ?— No, I do not think so ; I think the power is not used to excess at all. 7141. You do not think, therefore, that it requires any such restrictions ? — No. 7142. Do you think there is any danger where the punishment is immediately inflicted by a sixth form boy alone, and without any witnesses, of its becoming excessive ?— No, I do not think so. 7143. {SirS.Northeote.) Doyou think generally the relation of the sixth form to the rest of the school is satisfactory ? — Yes, I think so. 7144. {Lord Lyttleton.) Is there any practical dis- tinction socially between a boy in the sixth form and a boy among the first 20 of the fifth form ?— Not the least. 714.5. {Mr. Thompson.) The upper boys of the fifth form are as advanced as the sixth ? — A great many of them. 7146. {Sir S. Northcote.) If the captain of the house happened to be an upper boy in the fifth form, he would have as much authority as one of the sixth form ? — Yes, in the house. 7147. {Mr. Vaughan.) You say the sixth form do not seem to exercise much authority in the school. Is there any other class of boy, or a boy in any posi • tion whatever, who does exercise an autliority over the rest of the school of that kind ?— No other class of boys inflict punishment 5 but there are others who have more influence, I think. 7148. First of all, of what kind is that influence ? I mean the influence of captains of the boats and the captain of the eleven, of all those who hold the first position m the school games. It is the general wish of boys to please them, in order that they may o-ain advancement by their means in their several pursuits 7149. You mean to say there is a general respect and a general desire to please them throughout all tlie lower boys that gives them a sort of authority ?_ 7150. And to what extent could they venture to use such authority. Would it be thought a less unseemly thing if they were to box a boy's ears for anything wrong than if a sixth form boy were to do il ? — I do not think it would be likely to be so talked about. 715L Do the boys in the sixth form associate with the smaller boys ftt all, or with boys much below them in the school ? — They associate with the fifth form, with the upper part of the fifth form, not witli those very low down. 7152. Would a sixth form boy fraternise to a cer- tain extent with a boy lower down in the school if he were distinguislied as a boater or a cricketer, more than he would if he were not so distinguished? — Yes. They associate also with those who excel at cricket or boating, or any other athletic game, no matter what their place in the school may be. 7153. It would be a recognized sort of superiority which would entitle him, as it were, to the friendship of a sixth form boy ? — Yes. 7154. In fact* is there any barrier between the sixth form and the other parts of the school, except that of age ? — No, I think none at all. 7155. {Lord Devon.) How far are the sixth form considered by the masters as their auxiliaries and assistants, either In promoting any good object in the school, or maintaining school discipline, or in any other way. Are the masters in the habit of consulting with them and requesting their support and co-operation in any particular way ? — No, not generally I think. 7156. I suppose intiraaeies exist now and then between the youngei' masters and the sixth form, do they not ? — No, not usually^ Not more in the sixth form than in others. 7157. {Lord C/a/'cwrfo/J^) Should you say that it de- pends on the sixth form and the upper fifth to keep the public opinion of the school in a sound and healthy state ? — Yes ; and on the cricketing nud boating boys as well. 7158. You consider tliat public opinion is in a sound state at Eton ; that there would be general reprobation of anything ungentleman-like or dishonourable ? — I think so, certainly^ 7159. Doyou think tliat public epiurion is sufficiently strong and marked to restrain anything that would be discreditable? — Yes. It differs very much at dirterent times. The tone of the school alters very much. 7160. Do you think that drinking, swearing, lying, and gambling would be faults wliich public opinion would take cognizance of and repress by its expres- sion ? — Certainly, any habitual gambling or lying. I do not think an individual case would be looked on as anything particular at Eton. Any one who is addicted to it certainly would be looked down on. 7161. You think that if anybody was guilty of such offences as those, and had a tendency to commit them, there would be a strong expression of public opinion against him ? — Yes. 7162. {Lord Li/ttelton.) Would not a boy of some standing and chaRicter in the school, if he unfortu- nately got drunk on the 4th of June, be thought worse of for that ? — No, I do not think so. 7163. ( Sir S. Northcote.) But if a fellow were very often drunk he would rather suffer in character ? — Yes. 7164. {Mr. Thompson.) How about betting; would habitual betting be looked upon unfavourably by the boys? — I do not think that is looked down on much. 7165. It is not thought immoral in any way ? — No. It is not much in vogue. 7166. What kind of gambling would excite repro- liation among the boys ? — I should think any sort. Gambling is not carried on at all at Eton that I know of. 7167. Did they play cards ? — I have known whist played, but nothing else. 7168. How high points ? — Very low indeed. 7169. A mere trifle ? — Yes. 7170. And no betting on whist ? — No. 7171. {Lord Li/ttelton.) Would a boy who was at all known as a drunkard be less likely to be elected into the debating society ? — Yes. PUBLIC SCHOOLS COMMISSION: — MINUTES OP EVIDENCE. 245 7172. {Mr. Vaiigkan.) I suppose the scale of morality fliictuates from time to time at Eton ? — Yes. 7173. With regard to some points ? — Yes. 7174. With regard to others I suppose it is perpetual. For instance, a boy who lied. There has never been a time at Eton at which a boy of that sort would be other than detested ? — No. 7175. But iu the matter of gambling, or even drink- ing and those things, which are not immediately con- nected witii a very strong sense of honour, do you think it would be iu the power of one or two boys such as you have described, who are particularly good at games, good fellows, and popular, to put it a little into fashion at one time, or to make it to be regarded as a very venial, pardonable oifence ? — They might make it so by frequenting public-houses themselves, or in some way of that sort. They might make it more the fashion, but not to any great extent. 7176. Have you ever known times in tlie school in which petty immoralities of that sort have become in that way at ail in vogue ? — No, I do not think so. 7177. {Mr. Thompson.) You say tliat lying would be reprobated by the bo3's ; do j'ou mean lying to one another or Jying to the masters ? — More lying to one another than lying to the masters. 7178. Do you think that the tone at Eton is healthy with regard to lying to the masters ?--^Yes, I do not think it is carried on to any very great extent. 717.9. Not habitually at all ?— No. 7180. {Lord Clarendon.) Was there a good deal of drinking when you were at Eton ? — No, very little indeed. 7181. And not much habit of going to public- houses ? — No ; there is a sort of public-house there called Tap, to w'hich the boys go, but I have never known any one get drunk there ; tliey merely go to get a glass of beer and come away again ; they scarcely ever sit long. 7182. It is not a sort of club ?— No. 7183. I suppose they go and get a glass of beer after cricket ? — Yes, and come away again. 7184. With respect to bullying, has there been much bullying at Eton come to your knowledge ? — No ; very little. 7185. There are oceasionaT instances, I suppose ? — Yes, certainly ; but I think as a nile there 'is very little indeed. 7186. What sort of instances of bullying came to your knowledge? — They have usually been instances, not of severe punishment, but more generally chaffing and abuse of that sort. Some boys who are devoid of tact get abused and chaffed wherever they go. 7187. And their lives made uncomfortable ? — Yes, I y who had gone on systematically with his Homer, and got thro gh a whole book of Homer in that way, jast preparing himself enough to construe at each lesson, when it all came upon him at once at the end of the half-year would still be able to pass respectably and get his promotion ? — The collections are simply examinations of what is done in term. They have no effect on boys' places in the school. 7360. I should like to take them separately. First, the examination for promotion. How would a boy of that sort manage ? — Of course it would damage his place very much in the examination. 7361. Would it be sure to damage his place, do you think ? — That depends on his own abilities very much. He might learn it from the crib and be able to remember it. Some boys can. 7362. (Sir S. Northcote.) Do boys use old copies much ? — No, I think not very much. There are a great many old copies going in the school iu the different houses, but I do not think they are much used. 7363. {Mr. Thompson.) Are they very strict in looking over the verses of the average boys. Would there be any punishment supposing a copy were sent up full of foults ? — It would be torn over, and the boy would have to do a second copy. 7364. As a rule, would boys do their own verses generally ? — As a rule they do. Some boys there are who do not. 7365. Do you think there are any boys who cannot by any possibility do their own verses ? — I think there are very few instances of that. 7366. You never knew an instance of a boy who was perfectly inapt for Latin verse and who was clever in other respects ? — I have not known it myself. 7367. ( Sir S. Northcote.) Are there cases of boys who get other boys to do their verses for them, and PUBLIC SCHOOLS COSUIISSION : — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 249 in retuni give them some advantages, either in the boats or in fagging or other ways ? — No, I do not think so. 7368. ( Lord Clarendon.) Do you consider that the history and geography that you know was acquired in the iHipil room or from private reading ? — Perhaps from private reading more than anything. I think the system is verj' deficient with regard to history and geograpliy. 7369. You do not think there is much attention paid to tliem ? — No. 7370. In mathematics now, were you obliged to pay much attention ? — No, we were not obliged to. The matlieniatical masters were not looked on in the same light as the classical masters, but as inferior in their position. 7371. Their social status in the school was different ? —Yes. 7372. I suppose boys, therefore, rather think that matlicmatics must be an inferior study ? — I think that is the feeling. 7373. And that reflects, of course on the disposition to stud}' mathematics ? — Yes. 7374. Is the study of mathematics, from one cause or another, not popular at Eton ? — I do not think it is. 7375. But still they get marks for it. It is of use to a boy in his position in the school ? — Yes. 7376. (Lord Li/ffcllon.) He cannot get up without it ? — Not without a minimum. 7377. (Lord Clarendon.) As far as you know, is there much private instruction in mathematics ? — Yes, a great deal, I think boys went to meet each other, rather than to do work. Tlicy thought it was rather a nice tiling to go out at night. They did not do much when they got to their master. ' 7378. So that the object was rather social than scien- tific ?— Yes. 7379. How much time was left for private reading in general ? — Boys had a great deal of time ; I can- not, say how many hours exactly. It depended very mucli on how much time they used in their other studies. 7380. Was there a good deal of private reading in general literature, as far as you know, at Eton ? — I think very little. 7381. There was no general desire for information? —No. 7382. It was not considered any part of business or pleasure, at Eton, to keep up a reading of the general knowledge of the d.ay ? — No, I do not think so. 7383. {Sir S. Northcote.) Did they read newspapers? — I think those who belonged to the debating society read them. I do not think the other part of the school did. 7384. (Lord Lyttelton.) Those in the debating society have an advantage in reading as compared with the other boys ? — Yes. 7385. Have many houses libraries ? — I hardly know of any except Mr. Evans'. 7386. Do they use the school library much ? — No, very little indeed ; the collegers used it, but the oppi- dans used it very little. 7387. (Mr. Thompson.) Do you think the majority of the boys had read the greater part of Sir Walter Scott's novels ? — I do not know ; I should think they had probably. 7388. Do you think they had read the principal poets, such as Shakspeare ? — I do not think they read Sha/tspeare. 7389. jNIuch less Milton, I suppose ? — ^No, I do not think they did. 7390. They were obliged to read him a little, were they not, for verses ? — Yes. 7391. But beyond reading over the passages set for Greek iambics and hexameters, you do not think Milton and Shakspeare much read ? — No, I do not. 7392. Would you say that the modern poets are read? Did you ever hear of anyone reading Coleridge ? — • Some boys do ; but I think, as a rule, most boys read nothing at all except novels and liooks of that sort. 7393. What sort of novels, serial novels? — Yes. 1. 7394. Thackeray's ?— Yes. 7395. Or would that be too difficult?— I do not think ThaAeray is read very much. 7396. Lever, perhaps ? — Yes. 7397. (Lord Clarendon.) Bulwer ?— Yes. 7398. (Mr. Thompson.) They do read a great many novels ? — Yes. 7399. (Mr. Vatighan.) How do they get the novels that they read ?— They buy them, and then they pass about the house from one boy to another. 7400. It is the cheapness that determines the book selected to a certain degree ? — Yes, I think so. 7401. The railway editions of novels, perhaps?—. Tes. 7402. (Lord Clarendon.) Do the masters ever in- quire what books the boys are reading ? — I do not think so. 7403. They do not take any concern about it ? I think not. 7404. (Mr. Thompson.) Would it be resented if they did ? — I do not think the boys would care much for what the masters said about their reading. 7405. (Lord Clarendon.) What are the average hours of work a day. We will say for an average idle boy and an average industrious boy ? — They work differently on different days of the week. I cannot lay down a certain number of hours for each day in the week. Some days they had verses to do, and some prose, and that sort of thing. I should think six hours a day would be the outside. 7406. Is that an idle or industrious boy ? — An in- dustrious boy the whole week through. 7407. (Lord Lyttelton.) A boy working for the Newcastle ? — Yes ; but that does not affect the aver, age ; I mean for the school work and tutor's work. Of course I do not mean voluntary work. 7408. (Lord Clarendon.) That would be for an in- dustrious boy ? — Yes. * 7409. How many hours work a day, taking one day in the week with another, need an idle boy do ? A boy that does all his own work? 7410. Yes ? — I should think about four and a half hours. 741 1 . (Lord Lyttelton.) Reckoning school work ? — Yes. 7412. (Lord Clarendon.) That you call doing all his own work ? — Yes. 7413. But there are great facilities for not doing his own work ? — Yes, a boy might get on without doing anything except what he does in school. I mean, he might learn his lessons with cribs in a very short time, and get his exercises done for him. 7414. (Mr. Vaughan.) By other boys do you mean ? — Yes. 7415. Was there any compulsion at that sort of work ? — No, I think not. 7416. Would a clever boy acquire popularity by volunteering to do other exercises for them ? — Yes, he would, I think. 7417. (Lord Clarendon.) And with an idle boy of that sort who does not do his own work, but gets it done for him, the master does not interfere. He does not know much about it, does he ? — No, I think not. 7418. He does not try to stimulate him to greater exertions ? — Perhaps he does at first ; but I think he soon gives him up as a bad job. 7419. (Lord Lyttelton.) It depends on who the tutor is ? — Of course it depends very much on the tutor. 7420. (Mr. Thompson.) There is great difference in the tutors ? — Yes. 7421. (Lord Lyttelt07i.) When you were captain of the eleven, how much time did you give to cricket ? — I should think on an average about five hours a day. 7422. You are including all you did. You had to keep the accounts, and so on ? — Yes. 7423. (Lord Clarendon.) Do you include that ia. the five hours ? — The accounts were not very much. li ETON. if. A. H. Mil. chell, Esq. 20 Nov. 1862, 250 PUBLIC SCHOOLS COMMISSION :— MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. ETON. n. A. II. Mit- chell, Esq. 20 Nov. 1S62. 7424. {Mr. Ticisleton.) That was, for the most part, playing at cricket ? — Yes. _ 7425. {Lord LyttcUon.) As captain had you to give ratlicr more time to it than any other boy ? — Not to the actual playing, I think, except for example's sake. 742G. Would a young boy, about 13 or 14, who had the ambition of cricket strong in him, play five hours a day ? — Yes, I think so. 7427. {Mr. Vaughan.) I suppose that makes the meat breakftist a little necessary ? — Perhaps it does. 7428. {Lord Clarendon.) A great number of the sixth and fifth forms play during the season five hours a day ? — Yes ; a great many. 7429. {3Ir. Ticisleton.) What proportion of the boys write their own Latin ver^s. In, say 20 boys, what proportion of the 20 would be likely to write their own Latin verses ? — I think 17 out of 20. 7430. {Lord Clarendon.) Are the expenses of cricket considerable ? — No. 7431. About what should you say it was to each boy, all included ? — If lie is in the eleven, the ex- penses of course are rather more ; but to those who are not in the eleven the expense is very little ; they have only to provide bats, balls, stumps, and so on. 7432. What is the greater expense of the eleven ? — They have flannel trousers. Playing at Lord's and going to Winchester also cost something. 7433. {Sir S Northcote.) Is keeping the ground in order at the expense of the club ? — No. 7434. {Lord T^yttelton.) Does the whole school pay the expense of keeping the ground ? — No, I think not. The college pay for the actual keeping of the ground. 7435. Has the captain any particular expenses above others ? — No, I think not. 7436. {Sir S. Northcote.) What does the club pay with regard to the ground ? Do they pay for rolling it ? — No ; the college keep it in order, and the club only pay for their things to be taken up there. They have to be taken up every day. 7437. But they have nothing to do with the ground itself ? — No ; not with the paying for it. 7438. {Lord Clarendon.) Looking back to the time you passed at Eton, are you satisfied with the way in which that time was spent, and do you think you got as much from it as you could fairly expect from the system of education there ? — I think there is a great fault in the composition done at Eton. It is all original composition. They scarcely ever give you a piece of English prose or verse to turn into Latin prose or verse. 7439. You found the effect of this when you got to Oxford ?— Yes. 7440. {Mr. Twisleton.) It is the case, is it not, that a boy who merely writes original Latin prose, uses phrases only with which he is acquainted ? — Yes. 7441. So that there might be a large class of phrases of which he might be wholly ignorant, and yet he might make a very good show in his Latin essay ? Yes. 7442. {Mr. Vaughan.) With regard to the original themes, what sort of subjects in Latin were they given upon ? — They had generally something to do with history, generally historical subjects. 7443. More often than upon some moral maxim ? Sometimes on that ; but not often on moral subjects. 7444. But on the historical subjects was it not rather difficult for a boy to repeat himself. If he had ten Latin themes to write in the year, could they be_ very much repetitions of each other. Do you think a boy could manage to present the same sen- tences a little differently arranged? — I think they do to a certain extent, almost without knowing it them- selves, and in verses they certainly do. They put the same ideas in over and over an-ain. 7445. Did it ever strike you that if the verse and theme exercises had occurred more seldom than they did, the boys would have taken more pains with them ?— Yes ; I think we had too many verses to do certainly ; and too often ' 744C. Do you think you would be disposed to take more pains with a copy of verses if it had occurred half as often as it did ? — Yes, I think the boys would. 7447. {Mr. Twisleton.) Suppose alternately there had been translations instead of original compositions, would that have tended to improve even the original verses ? — Very much, I think. 7448. {Lord Devon.) I should like to refer for one moment to the question of expenses. In the eleven were there any expenses to which the boj's were put periodically for dinners or luncheons ? — No, the dinners were given by the eleven who came down to play. 7449. But daily, were there not luncheons on the ground ? — No ; we had tea in the evening. Then the things are all brought from the houses. 7450. It is not by subscriptions among the boys themselves ? — No ; at least each boy pays a subscrip- tion of about 5s. in the term. 7451. As to the further expenses of the boys generally at Eton, should you say that ordinarily speaking among those whom you knew there was much habit of expenditure ? — No, not very great. It differed very much in different boys. 7452. You know no instances of excessive expendi- ture ? — No. 7453. {Lord Lyttelton.) It depends on the amount of pocket money their parents give them ? — To a great extent. 7454. {Lord Devon.) Was there any facility for running into debt ? — All the shops gave " tick " to a small amount. 7455. To any large extent ? — I do not think they would go to any large extent. 7456. Would they give " tick" for 61. ? — I think so ; some of the shops, beyond that. They would give much more " tick" to the larger boys and those who had influence in the school. 7457. Did you ever know any instances of shop- keepers lending money to boys ? — No, I never knew anything of the sort. 7458. I suppose the habits of expense vary accord- ing to the predominant code of the school at the time, and that depends on the tone and character of the sixth form very much 'i — I do not think it varies very much. 7459. You could not remark any difference during your time ? — No. 7460. {Sir S. Northcote.) Did you know any instance of boys wlio had very large sums of pocket money ? 30/. or 40/. sometimes ? — Yes, I have known instances; but very rarely. 7461. Were those boy^s at all more looked up to, or made more of than others ? — I do not think so. 7462. {Mr. Twisleton.) I suppose it would be very injurious to the other boys that some boys should have such a large amount of pocket money ? — I think it is. 7463. {3Ir. Thompson.) Do some boys ever hire horses or gigs ? — No, scarcely ever. 7464. It is not possible? — Yes, it is possible. There is occasionallyan exception. 7465. It is forbidden and not practised ? — No, scarcely at all. Of course, there are exceptions sometimes. 7466. {3Ir. Vaughan.) I should like to go back to a former topic, for a moment. Is there not a great deal of repetition learnt at Eton ? — Yes, there is. 7467. Do you know how many lines a week the Latin and Greek repetition would amount to at the top of the school, say high in the fifth form ? — I should think between two and three hundred lines. 7468. Could that be easily shirked by a boy ? — Boys have very seldom learnt it. They have got a way of guessing the piece they are likely to have. 7469. Are they called up in order ? — Yes. 7470. So that they could get piping hot four or five lines and be ready with it at the proper moment ? — Yes. 7471. Do you think that the repetition set to the boys to learn told really and effectively upon the PUBLIC SCHOOLS COJDIISSION : — MINUTES OF EVIDEXCK 251 coniposiiion by giving fnste and facility ? — I Jo not thinly it did. 7472. {Mr. Twislctoii.) That could be frustrated if the masters were iu the habit of setting on boys out of order and dodging them ? — Yes, if they did not go straight through the lessons. 7473. {Mr. TJtompsoH.) A master would be very uujiopular who interfered with that routine, w^ould he not ? — lie would, decidedly. 7474. Would he be pelted ? — I do not know. He would be disliked. 7475. {Lord Clarendon^ With the exception of those difficulties iu comiiosition which you have alluded to, on the whole you do not find any fault with the system of education at Eton, reflecting on it since j'ou left it ? — No ; except the composition and the repetition. I do not think there is auj-thiug more. 7476. Would you think from your observation and experience of Eton, and reflection on it since you have left, that there are any changes which you would like to see, whether for the honour of the school or the good of the students ? — I think Greek play ought to be read a little more, and Greek prose, 1 think, ought to be done more than it is. 7477. {Mr. Thompson.') Do you mean Greek prose composition ? — Yes. The witness 7478. (Sir S. Northcote.) There is one general question I should like to ask, do you think tliat the school is too large, or that it admits of indefinite ex- pansion ? — I think it is not too large. 747 9. You would not mind seeing the school increased to a thousand or more ? — I do not think so. 7480. Do you think there is any tendency in a large school to break it up into different houses, so that boys have much less association with dift'erent houses than in a smaller school ? — I do not think that. I do not think boys join so much with boys in the same houses 7481. Do you not think that in the low-er part of the school they go very much with their own houses ? — They go with their divisions very much. I think they mix quite as much with their division as with their house. 7482. {Mr. Vai/ffhan.) You said there was a good deal of historical composition. How are boys able to get materials for ^vriting historical composition at Eton when they have a Latin theme set them which they have to produce in a short time ? — They gene- rally procure a classical dictionary or some book of that sort. Of course, they do not translate it literally ; but in the easiest manner they can. 7483. Was it usually upon classical history? — Yes, generally. Sometimes the master who set the theme gave a few general ideas on the subject, if it was not historical. withdrew. ETOy. B. A. H. Mit- chell, Esij. 20 Nov. 1SG2. 7484. {Lord Clarendon.) How many years, Boringdon, were you at Eton ? — Five years. 7485. How long have j'ou left it ? — This time last year I came to O.xlbrd. I left Eton last Avigust twelvemonth. 7486. You are now at Balliol ? — Yes. 7487. You went there last year ? — Straight from Eton. 7488. What were the relations between the oppidans and the collegers. Do you consider they looked upon each other as upon an equality ? — I think below the middle division of the fifth form the oppidans looked down upon the collegers ; but after that they treated them as being on the same level, especially if at all distinguished in the games, football or cricket, especially cricket. 7489. Do you think they were looked up to as rather better scholars than their contemporaries the oppi- dans ? — Certainly. 7490. On that account they were looked up to ? — I do not know exactlj' about looked up to ; but as on the same level. 7491. In consequence of that ? — No; merely because they were on the same level. 7492. Is their superiority in scholarship, do you think, recognized now in the school ? — Certainly. 7493. What circumstance is that owing to ? — I cannot say at all. I think chiefly because there is an examination to enter college, which makes them all, to a certain degree, picked boys, and then it is rather more the fashion to read in college than out of college. 7494. That is done so much that the oppidans are rather disheartened ? — They have monopolised a great number of the prizes. 7495. The oppidans do not think it any use trying for tliem ? — That is so. 7496. The collegers have nothing to do with the boats, have they ? — No ; they are not admitted into the boats. They have a boat of their own, a four oar. 7497. {Lord Lyttclton.) Maya colleger have what is called a " lock-up ?" — Yes. 7498. Do they have it occasionally ? — Yes. 7499. {Lord Clarendon.) Do you think that the gown makes any difference iu the feeling of the oppidans towards the collegers ? — I think it may keep it up a little. I think a boy low in the school would not like to be seen walking with a boy in a gown. Viscount Boringdon examined Lord 7500. Do you think that it is felt as a badge of inferi- ority by the collegers ? — I hardly know. I think it is looked down upon rather by the oppidans iu the lower part of the school. 7501. Have j-ou ever heard at .all whether the col- legers would like to get rid of the gown ? — No ; I never heard the subject mentioned at all. 7502. Had you any friends among the collegers ?— Yes. 7503. With whom you were intimate ? — Yes. 7504. And with whom you were upon terms of per- fect equality ? — Yes, perfectly. 7505. {Lord Lyttclton.) Had you any leaving books from the collegers ? — Ye.s, one. 7506. Did you ever give a leaving book to a col- leger ? — Yes. 7507. {Mr. Vaughan.) Does it ever happen or is it notorious in the school that there are boys wlio ■would havebeen able toget to college from their abilities and attainments, over the heads of those actually elected from the school, we will say at 1 1 years old, and who yet distinctly declined to enter into com- petition ? — I do not quite understand you. 7508. I understand that of the boys who are elected as collegers, some are elected from among the oppidans, and some entirely from strangers to the school ? — Yes. 7509. Among the boys who have remained through- out as oppidans, are there any who, at the time in which the competition took place, it was well known to the school could have succeeded in getting into college had they chosen to enter iuto competition ? — . Yes, certainly. 7510. So that there are oppidans boys who are growing up in the school who are quite equal, or have been during their time at school quite equal in point of ability and attainments to those who get into college ? — Quite so,' certainly. 7511. Do you think, supposing this to be the case, that if one of two boys who was superior to the other as an oppidan, but did not choose to enter into the competition, but remained an oppidan, were com- pared four years afterwards with the same boy who had got iuto college, that there would be a marked difterence between them in favour of the colleger ? — I hardly know. 7512. You do not remember individual cases ? — No, because it is quite the exception to get into college after once being an oppidan. li 2 Viscount Bor- ingdon. 252 PUBLIC SCHOOLS COMMISSION :— MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. ETON. 7513. It wa.s an exception to wish to do it ? — Yes ; I think one in a hundred only would do it. Viscount Bur- 7514. Of those who would be competent ? — Yes. vigdo7i. »^j - ^jij^^ Twislclon.) The competition is open to 20 Nov~i86'>. the whole country ?— Yes. 7516. Therefore it necessarily follows, does it not, that the average of intelligence and attainments among the college boys is likely to be higher than among the oppidans ? — Yes, certainly. 7517. {Lord Lytlelton.) If a boy comes up from the school, tries for college and fails, he will go away again and try another time ? — I know some boys ■who have come up as oppidans, failed, and tried for college next year. I think very often they go away altogether. 7518. {Sir S. Northcote.) Have you ever heard the case of an oppidan coming up for college and rather trying to fail ?— Yes ; one case I know my- self. 7519. {Mr. Vauffhan.) Do you think that he thinks the cause of that is that his social position in the school would be less good ? — Yes ; till he gets quite up to the top of the school. 7520. {Lord Lyttelton.) And less comfortable ? — Yes. 7521. {Lord Clarendon.') The sixth form have power to inflict punishment ? — Yes ; I never knew it enforced by an oppidan. I have known it enforced by a colleger. Public opinion is 'Very much against it. 7522. Is that within the house ? — Out of the house anywhere. 7523. {Lord Lyttelton.) In the house as well as out ? — Yes ; it is only the lower boys, I think, not the fifth form. 7524. {Lord Clarendon.) Why is public opinion against that. Is it because it disapproves of one boy's punishing another, or that there has been an abuse of power ? — No, I think it disapproves of one boy's punishing another, 7525. Does the sixth form exercise authority practically in the school ? — The sixth form prie- postor has to keep order in the school before the lower masters come in. 7526. And to see that the boys attend ? — No. This was before the lesson commenced. 7527. Is there any communication with respect to the discipline of the school between the sixth form and the masters, and a reliance of the masters on the sixth form to assist them ? — In the houses there is. 7528. Not in the general discipline or administration of the school ? — No, I think not. 7529. {Lord Lyttelton.) In the houses is it not a matter of arrangement between the master or the boarding house keeper and the head of the house ? — Yes. 7530. It is not as sixth form that the head of the house has it ? — No ; as head of the house. 7531. You were in the sixth form ? — Yes. 7532. {Lord Clarendon.) Should you say from your observation while you were at Eton, that the public opinion of the school was in a sound state as to the morality of the boys ? — Well, I do not know exactly. 7533. With regard to such offences and vices as lying, drinking, swearing, and gambling, should you say that public opinion would be sufficiently strong to put a check upon them ? — I should think so, cer- tainly. 7534. You think that such offences as those, either ungentlemanlike or dishonourable, would be repro- bated ? — Certainly. 7535. (Lord Lyttelton.) Anything like habitual vice ? — Yes. 7536. {Lord Clarendon.) That would be more exercised by the boys among themselves, by the pressure of their own influence, than by any reports to the masters, or the boys calling in the masters ? Far more. 7537. {Lord Devon.) How far would the effect of public opinion manifest itself. Would it be by ex- clusion from the debating society or from any clubs ; or would it be by a diminution of social intercourse ? — Yes, to a certain degree. 7538. AVas there much bullying at Eton ? — ^I never saw any. 7539. {Lord Lyttelton.) What house were you in ? — Mr. Birch's. 7540. During the time you were there you did not hear of any ? — No. 7541. {Lord Clarendoii.) Do you think from the general tone and temper of the school that bullying would be put down ? — I should think certainly it would. 7542. Do you think the system of fagging is popular at Eton ? — I think so. 7543. Do you think there is no bad feeling about it on the part of those who are fagged ? — Not at all. 7544. And you do not think there is abuse of power on the part of those who do ? — Not a bit. 7545. {I^ord L^yttelton.) When you were a fag your- self, were you in agreeable relations with your master ? — Very ; I saw him at breakfast and tea, and those were the only times. ' 7546. {Lord Clarendon.) I suppose you always had a single room ? — Yes. 7547. And that is the general system at Eton ? — Almost entirely. In one or two places they have double rooms when they first go, which is altered afterwards. 7548. {Lord Lyttelton.) Evans's is one ? — Yes. 7549. Do you know of other houses ? — No ; I only know that instance. 7550. {Sir S. Northcote.) With regard to the break- fast fagging, do you think that it ever prevents boys, between breakfast fagging and construing, from getting their own breakfasts ? — I do not think so. It only takes 10 minutes. 7551. Does the fag himself always give a leaving book to his master ? — Generally. 7552. If he has been so any length of time ? — Yes. 7553. {Lord Devon.) What had the fag to do ?_To bring the kettle up for breakfast. 7554. Did he bring up the cold water to wash in the morning ? — No, he had merely to bring the kettle up. 7555. {Mr. Vaughan.) And make the toast, had he not ? — Yes. 7556. {I^ord T^yttelto)i.) And boil the eggs ? — Yes, I think that is the sum of it. 7557. {Sir S. Northcote.) If the master breakfasted out, he would take his commons to the other house ? — Yes. 7558. {Lord Devon.) Had he anything to do in the course of the day until tea-time came ? — Nothing at all. 7559. At tea he had to do the same as at breakfast ? —Yes. 7560. {Mr. Vaughan.) What time does the second lesson begin ; or, at any rate, what time does he go to the tutor for the second lesson ? — The second school begins at 11. 7561. And the going to the tutor ? — That varies on different days. 7562. {A Commissioner.) I suppose about half- past 10 ? — Yes, from a quarter-past. 7563. {Mr. Vaughan.) We have heard that owing to the system of fagging, boys very commonly cannot get their breakfast till 10 o'clock ; does that accord with your experience of it ? — Some boys have to go to their tutors at nine, and then they cannot go to fagging. 7564. That is for their next lesson ? — Yes ; it varies between 9 and 11, according to their different forms. 7565. You do not think that the system of fagging seriously interferes, in many instances, either with their power of doing their work for the next lesson com- fortably, or getting their own breakfast comfortably ? — I never felt it so. 7566. And early enough in the morning ? — Quite. PUBLIC SCHOOLS COMMISSION: — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 2o3 7567. They are up at seven, are they not ? — Yes, and school at half-past seven. 7568. ( Sir S. Xorthcote.) Were you in the fourth form ? — No. 7569. I suppose it might press more hardly on the fourth form? — Yes, I should think it might, but I should think there would never be any serious incon- venience. 7570. {Lord Clarendon.) As far as your experience went, do you believe that the food provided for the boys at Eton was generally satisfactory both as to quality and quantity ? — Quite ; it varies, I believe, at different houses, but I think there is no complaint to be made against it. 7571. You were not in the habit of hearing much complaint ? — No, not at all. 7572. (Sir S. Northcote.) How was the beer ? — At my tutor's it was very good. 7573. Did you hear of complaints in other houses? — Sometimes I heard a few complaints ; I do not think our feeding was superior to other houses. 7574. Was it the practice at your house for the boys to have Bass's beer ? — No, I think not. 7575. {Lord Clarendon.) You had not meat for breakfast ? — No. 7576. But you provided it for yourself ? — Yes, if we wished it. 7577. The dinner was good and well cooked ? — Yes. 7578. And you had meat at supper ? — Yes, cold meat at nine o'clock. 7579. {Mr. Twislefon.) How long afterwards did you go to bed ? — The latest we went to bed was half- past 10 for the highest form.«, the fourth form went at 10. 7580. {Lord Clarendon.) You had a great deal of time to spend on a Sunday ? — A great deal. 7581. In the afternoon, after the afternoon chapel ? — Yes, except the hour of private business with the tutor and the chapels, we had the whole of Sunday to ourselves. 7582. What did the private business with the tutor relate to ? — It differed according to different tutors a good deal ; but generally it was Greek Testament or Bible history. 7583. It was always religious instruction in some form or other ? — Yes, an hour. 7584. How was the spare time on the Sunday gene- rally spent ? — I think boys used to lounge about a good deal, or else go out for a walk. 7585. {Lord Lyttclton.) What did they do in the evenings ; prepare for the next day ?— No ; I do not think they read much on the Sunday. There were Sunday questions, which they had to do in the even- ings, which they had to show up the next morning, I think ; thoy employed the time in talking in one another's rooms. 7586. {Lord Clarendon.) Was there a good deal of drinking on the Sunday ? — I do not think so. 7587. You do not think boys went to public-houses to drink ? — I think there was a small set who did. 7588. Wh.at part of the school did they belong to ? — They were among the middle and upper fifth. 7589. {Lord Lyttelton.) It was rather those in the boats perhaps who were so inclined ? — No, not boat- ing boys in particular. 7590. {Lord Clarendon.) Did they habitually fre- quent the public-house on a Sunday afternoon ? — I think there were about six who did. 7591. Not more than that ? — No ; otherwise I do not think boys were fond of drinking at all. 7592. And in the ease of these boys who made a habit of it, was no notice taken of it or no attempt made to prevent it ? — I do not think so. 7593. Do you suppose that it came to the knowledge of the masters ? — I do not think so. 7594. In doing that they were doing what was for- bidden ? — Certainly. 7595. If they had been seen coming out by a master, he would have taken notice of it ? — He would have complained of them, and they would have been flogged, certainly. 7596. There were always prayers in Mr. Birch' house, I suppose ? — Yes, morning and evening. 7597. And reading service? — Yes. 7598. Do you think that the choral service in the chapel was popular ? — No, I do not think it was altogether; boys think it keeps them in rather longer; it does not often happen, it is only on Sundays and eves of Saints' days, and on Saints' days. 7599. {Lord Lyttelton.) Some boys are fond of the music ? — Yes. 7600. {Lord Clarendon.) It has been suggested that it might be useful, more regular, and have some advantages, if, instead of the private service and pri- vate prayers of a morning in the houses, there was a short choral service in the chapel of a quarter of an hour every day, doing away with the extra services on the Saints' days, do you think that would be liked in the school or not ? — Yes, I think the doing away with the Saints' days would. 7601. (Mr.Twisleton.) Doing away with the Saints' days ? — Yes. 7602. {Lord Devon.) What should you say of the substitution of this short service for the prayers in the different houses ? — I do not think that the boys would like it. 7603. {Lord Clarendon.) You think that the having to go to the chapel Avould be objected to ? — Yes. 7604. {Lord Lyftelfofi.) It has been rather put, not so much with reference to the prayers in the houses, but instead of the services in the chapel, that instead of going to church regularly on whole holidays, and so on, there should be regularly every day a shorter service, with some difTerence perhaps on Saints' days; but a short service and a choral service every day ; what should you think the boys would think about that ? — I think they would not like it. 7605. ( Sir S. Northcote.) They would get a longer "after 12 " on holidays ?— Yes. 7606. {Lord Clarendon.) Do you think that the sermons, such as are now preached in the chapel, have a beneficial effect ? — I do not think I often heard a sermon that would. 7607. They are generally preached by the Fellows ? — Yes. 7608. And are not much heard by the congregation? — No ; and if they were, I do not think they would be much attended to. 7609. As far as you have observed, from your own observation and from others, were the sermons addressed to the boys ? — Occasionally, when the Pro- vost or the Head Masters spoke, they were addressed to the boys, very pointedly ; otherwise, I think not so much. 7610. Do you think it would be a popular or useful thing, if those masters who had a talent for preaching were allowed to have the pulpit ? — I think it would, certainly. 761 1. And that it would not be disliked by the boys? —No. 7612. You think they would be more likely to have feelings and opinions in common with the boys, and would be able to address themselves to the boys better than the Fellows who have nothing in common ? — I should think so, certainly. 7613. Is much care taken in the preparation of the boys for confirmation ? — Yes. 7614. And as far as you have observed, do you think there is a proper and reverential feeling about it ? — Yes. 7615. That the seriousness of it is generally ad- mitted ? — I think so. 7616. And it is with a reverential feeling that they take the communion ? — I think so, certainly. 7617. There is no compulsion whatever ? — None, whatever. 7618. {Lord Lyttclton.) They hardly can have any but good motives for going ? — No. 7619. {Lord Clarendon.) Should you say that a large proportion of those who are confirmed take tho communion afterwards ? — Yes. 11 3 ETON. Viscount Bot' inytlon. 20 Nov. 1S62. 254 PUBLIC SCHOOLS COMMISSION : — MIXUTES OF EVIDENCE. ETON. Visrnunt Bor- intjdtm. 20 Nov. 1S62. 7620. And are regular communicants ? — Yes. 7621. {Lord Lytteltoii.) On an ordinary day, the first Sunday in October we will say, could you say how many yon suiiposed received the communion ? — I could hardly say, I should say 100 or loO. 7622. {Lord Clarendon.) Should you say that much attention is paid to imparting religious instruction iu the school ? — No, I do not know that there is very much. 7623. Should you say it does not extend much beyond the Greek Testament ? — Not much. 7624. And iu reading the Greek Testament, have the questions put by the tutors or the masters reference to doctrine, to religion, or to the Greek ? — I think chiefly to the Greek. 7625. So that the reading of the Greek Testament is not accompanied by any comments of the master having reference to the subject ? — I think not gene- rally, except in private business. It is more so in private business, certainly. 7626. And that is, in fact, the only religious instruc- tion that is given there ? — Yes, that and the Sunday questions. 7627. What is the nature of the Sunday questions ? — They differ according to the masters who set them. They are generally points of doctrine. Those of the sixth form are often taken out of Paley's Horce PaiiUnce. 7628. {Lord Lyttelton^ Do you think you learnt something from those Sunday questions ? — Yes, I think a certain amount. They employed one on the Sunday evening. 7629. {Mr. T/iompson.) Do you mean to say that you had Paley's Ilorte Pauli/ia to answer the ques- tions out of, or that the questions were taken out of it, and 3'ou had to make the reference yourself ? — You made the reference yourself. 7630. {Mr. raxghan.) Do you consider that you mastered ihcllo-a PatiUn. 2G0 PUBLIC SCHOOLS COMMISSION: — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. ETON. Viscnunt Bor- ingtnn. 20 Nov. ISGD. the school now consists and tlie numbers that some masters take ? — I should think hardly. I think there ought to be .1 master to every 30 boys. 7933. At all events that the number should bemore equally and properly distributed among the masters ? —Yes. 7934. Do you think, as far as you cansee, that if they exceed 30, the master can scarcely do justice to them ? — The master selects, I think, a great deal. He selects the best and rather neglects the worst. The witness 7935. {Sir S. Northcote.) Do you think that the school as a whole is too large, or do you think it is capable of extension without injury ? — I should think it was capable of extension without injury. 7936. You do not think the tendency of the school being too large is to break it up into different houses and separate the boys from one another ? — I do not think so, when it gets over a certain number. 7937. (Lord Clarendon.) Is there anything further which you would suggest ? — No, I think not. withdrew. W. Evans, Esq. 7938. (Lord Clarendon.) I believe, Mr. Evans, you bold and keep a boarding house at Eton ? — I do. 7939. For how many years have you had that ? — Since 1837, about 24 years. 7940. Yours is a " dame's " house, I believe ? — Yes. 7941. What is the difference between a "dame's" house and a tutor's house ? — In what respect do you -No, I am not aware mean t 7942. Is there any difference ? that there is any difference. 7943. (Lord Lijttclton.) About the difference of charge ? — As to the ch.irge, there is a difference. 7944. What is it ? — My charge is 80 guineas. 7945. (Lord Clarendon.) In the " dames' " houses? — Less. 7946. What is it in the tutor's houses ? — 120/., I believe. 7947. (Lord I^yttclton.) That is the charge for the board and lodging ? — That is the charge for the board and lodging. 7948. (BIr. Thompson.) Does the 80 guineas in- clude tuition ? — No, that is separate. 7949. (Sir S. Northcote.) Does not the 120/. for the tutor include the tuition fee ? — Yes. 7950. In the dames' houses that is extra ? — Yes. 7951. So that the charge in a dame's house really is lOOZ. ? — Yes, it makes a difference of about 20/. 7952. (Lord Lyttelton.) Is not the charge for j'our house 28/. a half?— Yes. 7953. And is it not 40/. in the tutor's house ? — Yes; that includes tuition. 7954. (Lord Clarendon.) What are the relations of the boys to the dame ? — I try to place myself as much as possible in loco parentis. A little boy comes for advice. He is very much thrown into my family, and of course in the first instance is very much more under the influence of the ladies than myself. 7955. How many boys have you in the house ? — 46 now. 7956. And can you be a father to them all ? — I think I can manage them all. 7957. (T^ord Lyttelton.) Do you know them all individually ? — Yes, I have nothing else to do. 7958. (T^ord Clarendon.) Perhaps you will have the goodness, with reference to the whole of the time you have been there, to give us an account of the amount of moral superintendence and influence you exercise over your boys, the improvements you have introduced into that part of the system, and so on, as to your per- sonal intercourse with the boys ? — As to my inter- course with the boys, they are very much, if young, with my famil}'. Some breakfast with us. 7959. (Lord Clarendon.) You have a sort of lower school ? — No, but the younger part of them cling to lis for those little kindnesses which they want. They are very much under my daughter, or the lady who manages the house under my daughter, spending the evening with them ; there is a piano, and that kind of thing. They are very sensible of kindness ; it gives us a hold on their affections, which we retain, I think, as long as they remain at Eton. As to otlier matters, they come for advice, and it is a great advantage having been at Eton myself. I know how to help them by a caution as to the difficulties which they are likely to encounter. 7960. The discipline in your house, I suppose, is much about the same as in the tutors' houses ? Yes. W. Evans, Esq., examined. 7961. How is that discipline maintained? — By supporting the authority of the elder boys, and by liberal and kindly treatment throughout. We are on the best possible terms. 7962. You have a captain ? — The captain of my house is the person whose authority I support ; and since I have had the house, I have never had occasion to appeal to the school to maintain discipline. 7963. (Lord L^yttelton.) It must often happen that the actual captain is an inferior sort of boy ; how do you act in that case ? — He is usually supported as captain by those who are near him. 7964. (Lord Clarendon.) What are the relations of the dame to the parents ? — Those of entire con- fidence. It was asked if I sent reports to them. I never do, but my correspondence is such that it has completely destroyed my professional occupation. In a case of diiflculty I always find it remedied more effectually by a woi'd from home. 7965. What are the relations of the dames to the tutors of the boys ? — The tutor generally is very co- operative. I have a large house, but up to a recent period my boys were divided into three pupil rooms and I always met with entire co-operation. If a boy is idle or inattentive, I get a note from the tutor to give him a word of caution or to look after him. 7966. (Lord Lyttelton.)Wha,t is your practice in the case of a boy whom you consider altogether a bad boy ? — I never keep a bad boy. 7967. How do you do it ? — Of course it is our duty to try and get them better ; but if I find a boy is so bad that he is not doing well at Eton, I feel bound to advise a parent to remove him. 7968. You are aware of the distinction betweer private pupils and those who are not private pupils ; you know that private pupils pay 20/. a year and others p.ay 10/. a year ? — I have heard so. 7969. In the case of boys in your house, is it not your practice, or does not the tutor expect you, to let him know when a boy comes, whether he is to pay them on the footing of a private pupil or not ? — No, never. 7970. Never since you have been there ? — Never. 7971. It is always 20 guineas ? — Yes. 7972. Does that apply to lower boys, the lower school, too ? — No ; in the lower school the charge for the tutor is 15/. 7973. You have no knowledge of any difference among the boys in your house ? — No; I have no charge of 10 guineas. 7974. It has always been so since you remember ? — Yes. 7975. (SirS. Northcote.) It has always been without exception that you have asked the 20 guineas and paid it to the tutor ? — Yes. 7976. (Lord Clarendon.") Have you any communi- cation with the tutor with respect to the boys' lessons? — Very little, except in the way I have mentioned; if a boy is idle sometimes I have a note from him. 7977. In short you do not undertake any superintend- ance of that sort ? — Not at all, I have merely the social charge. 7978. (Lord Lyttelton.) When you first entered on your house I believe the state of order and discipline was much worse than it is ? — Yes, I had great diffi- culty in establishing order in the first instance. 7979. (Sir S. Northcote.) Did you take a house full PUBLIC SCHOOLS COMMISSION :— MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 261 of boys ? — Ho, I had very few, but they were in very bad order. 7980. Did you step into a house that had been occu- pied by another person ? — Yes. 7981. (iMr. Thompson.) By a lady ?— Yes. 7982. {Lord Clnroidon.) How many ladies have houses there now ? — I think about six. 7983. As far as you know is the discipline well maintained there ? — I think some of those houses are as well managed as any in Eton. 7984. {Lord Lyttelton.) Do you not think from the nature of things it must be easier for a gentleman to maintain order among a large number of boys than for a lady ? — Undoubtedly it is ; and there is a great advantage in being an Eton man. 7985. You have the ladies of your family as well as yourself, and therefore you have a double advantage ? —Yes. 7986. {Lord Clarendon.) Do you consider that not having to take care of the boys' studies you are able to devote more time, and with success, to the formation of the character and to the individual himself ? — I think so, decidedly. 7987. You iiud that you do acquire a knowledge of their individual characters that enables you to a great extent to direct their conduct ? — Undoubtedly. 7988. {T^ord I^yttelton.) Are you very careful about servants ? — Very careful ; I think that is a most important matter. In the first ins.tance, when I took this house I found the whole establishment belonging to the boys, paid by the boys, by perquisites ; for which perquisites of course service was rendered, and it was with great difficulty that I got over things of that kind. 7989. You had greatly to raise their wages, I pre- sume ? — The whole expense of my predecessor's esta- blishment, as rendered to me, was 38/. per annum. Less than I give my man-servant. 7990. {Lord Clarendon.) How many boys? — I do not know how many there were ; my present wage- book amounts to nearly 300/., I think it is 284Z. I put the best servants round them I can get ; I sutfer them to take no perquisites, and I believe they are very honest in their service. 7991. There is a difleronce of charge between a dame's house and a tutor's house ; does that represent any different state of comfort ? — Not any, I believe. 7992. {Lord Lyttelton.) In point of fact is it not a question simply of how it is expressed. The charge in the tutor's house is a part of his payment as a master ; it has nothing really to do with the cost of what he gives them ? — I think that the expenses in my house should not be made a scale by which to measure the advantage of the tutor. 7993. No, but it is part of the tutor's payment for his work ; what he gets much more than pays him for his mere expenses ? — As to that I can express no opinion. 7994. {Lord Clarendon.) The expenses of the boarding houses to the dames are less than to the tutors, or are they equal, do you think ? — They are not in any way less ; I cannot understand that in any particular they can be less. Our rent is great, my house stands me in 280Z. a year. 7995. Rent only? — Yes, interest of money expended on it and the rent. Some of the other houses are less expensive, and some more ; these old houses are always out of repair. There is no difference in the internal expenses ; the boys have wine on Sunday. The arrangements were made by my friend Bishop Selwyn, when I was in trouble, and under the im- pression that I should have been able to retain a professional income, the house was cast on the most liberal scale it could afford. 7996. {Sir S. Northcote.) He boarded in the house at one time ? — Yes ; but not in my time. 7997. {Lord Lyttelton.) As a question of profit it has been below what you expected ? — Yes, very much, undoubtedly it has. 7998. That is partly owing to peculiar circumstances? —I was obliged to do everything by deputy, not having till lately any of my family in the house. 7999. Do you apprehend that in the case of tho ladies having houses they do not make a fair profit for their position in life ? — I do not think they can ;' I know, in fact, there has been lately an appeal from " the dames." The whole treatment of the boys has been so much improved, that they arc driven to expenses which they can hardly afford. 8000. They have in any case to pay a considerable rent, or something in the nature of rent ? — Yes, I believe so. 8001. {Lord Clarendon.) On what terms have they acquired their houses ? — Tho terms on which I acquired my house were these. I had to pay upwards of 3,000/. to my predecessor for the good-wUl. That was the usual mode. 8002. Is that usual with the dames' houses only ?— With the dames' houses only. 8003. Not the tutors ?A-Not the tutors. 8004. Why is there that different system of paying for the good-will of the dames' houses and not of the tutors ? — I do not know why. There has been an alteration in the system since I have been there. When I was a boy at Eton the boys were almost all in dames' houses. The lower master and the senior assistants had boys in their houses ; the younger masters had not. 8005. Then the tutors having boarders is quite a modern thing ? — Yes, comparatively. 8006. {Lord Lyttelton.) Where d'id the tutors live in old times ? — In the early times they lived with the dames on their first appointment. 8007. He had not the charge of boys ? — No. 8008. Then in the former times he did not consider he had any general superintendence of the boys ? — None whatever at first ; he merely had a fcAV pupils. I think there are no less than 12 or 13 largo houses built since that time. The accommodation is trebled, and there is scarcely a house as it was. 8009. {Lord Clarendon.) And it was always the system to sell the good-will of the dames' houses ? — Yes. To show that it was the system, my sureties were Mr. Carter and Mr. Coleridge, so that it was a perfectly open transaction. 8010. {Lord Lyttelton.) It was done under the direction of the College, was it not ? — It was done as a usual thing. I am an artist, and was going to London under the impression that I should get on in London. I had great inducements to go there. I was in great trouble at the time, and my friends thought I should serve the College by being placed in one of these houses. The arrangement was made for me. I had to pay 2,000/. to my predecessor, and 1,000/. to her daughter in one sum within a fortnight of her mother's death. 8011. {Lord Clarendon.) Did that sort of transfer use to take place without the cognizance or the inter- ference of the Head Master ? Might the dame sell the good-will to any person she liked ? — She might, but the Head Master would hold a veto. 8012. {Lord Lyttelton.) Do you think that is in itself a satisfactory system. Do you think it can be reckoned a proper system that a dame on entering into a house at Eton should have that large payment to make, or any large payment at all ? — I do not think it is a good system. 8013. {Sir S. Northcote.) It must be one very difficult to get out of. For instance, in your posi- tion, do you consider that you have a legal claim to deal with your own good-will ? — I have no claim whatever but that of a long established usage. 8014. {Lord Lyttelton.) But looking back at tho expense which you have had to bear, do you not think that you have an equitable claim on the Col- lege ? — The College would not acknowledge the transfer, I believe. I certainly considered, after in- vesting so large a sum of money, that I was at least secure of having it made over to my family at my death, which I do not feel at all at present. 8015. You mean that your son would have a claim to succeed you as keeping that house ? — Yes, or my daughters. Kk 3 ETON. W. Evans, Esi], 20 Nov. 1S62. rcCLIC SCIICOLS COIIMISSIOX : —MINUTES OF EYIDE.NCE.- Z.l Nov. 1SC2. ETON. 8016. (Lord Clarendon.) Do you consider that you should be entitled to leave your house to your son Evans,Es(j. -witliout any fear of his right being disputed, provided the authorities considered him a fit person to step into your shoes ? — When I took it first I certainly considered myself so entitled. I have never had any direct understanding with Dr. Goodford, but on the appointment of tlie mathematical masters some application was made to him for a promise of the reversion of these dames' houses, and I understood from them that it was made with some exception. I should state that there are other persons wlio stand e.tacily in my position, as regards these payments. 8017. Do you mean it was promised to the mathe- matical masters that they should have it free of entrance money ?— Free of all charge, I believe. 8018. You would think then that, on the whole, the dames' houses are useful insitutions ? — I think it is a great advantage to the school to have persons who have no other occupation than the social charge of the boys. 8019. And that if there was to be any change, you would rather think that it should be increased than diminished ? — Well, I am hardly prepared to answer that question. But it is obvious that a man may be a good tutor, and yet not suited to the management of a house. 8020. Do you think that tliese six houses give the school sufficient of the advantage of that class of boarding housekeeper, the six lady dames ? — There are four men in my position. The mathematical masters now stand in exactly the same position. 8021. Not quite in the same position? — I mean •with reference to the boys in their houses. 8022. {Lord Lijttelton.) Their time is otherwise taken up ? — INIr. Mai-riott and Mr. Vidal are in exactly the same position ; and also Mr. Stevens. 8023. {Mr. Thompson.) Have any of the mathema- tical masters houses at present ? — Yes, three of the mathematical assistants. 8024. {Lord Clarendon.) You have told us about the change that has taken place with regard to the tutors keeping boarding houses ; but since you have been at Eton, should you say that any great changes had taken place in the morale of the school ? — Yes, there is a vast improvement. 8025. In what particular do you think there has been improvement ? — The general tone of the school has much improved ; even in the last 10 years I should say there has been a great alteration. 8026. With respect to what? — Their general manner and conduct ; I think there is less unpleasantness of any kind ; they have improved in discipline. Boys high in the school will never leave the dinner table without saying grace now, which I am sure an old Eton man will look upon as a remarkable change. 8027. Do you mean saying grace to himself? — Silently but visibly. That will show you generally what I mean as to the improved tone of the school. 8028. {Lord Lyttelton.) The language the bo3's use is much better than formerly ? — Yes, very much. 8029. What do you rely upon to prevent the possibi- lity of any gross immoralities occurring in your house ? — By watchfulness, I do not think that kind of thing can happen to any extent. 8030. {Lord Clarendon.) Do you think, I will not say any in a case of gross immorality, but in any case of bullying or cruelty, do you think you would be sure to know it ? — I am perfectly certain that in my own house I should know it instantly. 8031. You would say that there is at present at Eton a high moral and geutleman-like tone ? — I think very much so. 8032. {Lord Lyttelton^) Referring only to social and moral points, what evil do you think there is at Eton existing or threatening now with regard to the moral state of the boys ? — I do not quite understand you. 8033. You have told us of the good points, what evil do you think at present exists or threatens in the social or moral state of the boys at Eton ? — I think the evil you allude to is the unwholesome influence of a certain class of boys. 8034. Yes ? — I imagine if we could get rid of tliat whicli is known at Eton as the " big lower bo}'," we should be in a much more wholesome condition. 8035. You mean boys too big for their place id the school ? — Boys who, at 14 years of age, are placed with childi-en of 10, who have nothing in common with those around them, and who are hope- lessly below their proper condition in the school, and therefore distinguish themselves in some unwholesoma manner. 8036. {Sir S. Narthcote.) Is it not often the case that boys come very ill prepared, offer themselves fop the upper school, are rejected as unfit, and then are received into the lower school ? — I believe it is. 8037. Has not that a bad effect oq the state of pre- paration in point of scholarship in which boys are sent up? — Yes. Dr. Hawtrey would not admit any boy who had completed his 14th year into the fourth form. 8038. Suppose ahoy gets on very slowly and injures the school in that wa}', do you think there might ba any positive rule that, unless he can arrive at a certain position by a given age, he must leave the school ? — . It is a very difficult question ; I think it is easily prcr vented, in the first in.stance, by proper fitness for his position. 8039. There is another class of boys that are called " swells." Do you think the influence of swells is good or bad ? — The great idea of a "big lovi^er boy" is that he shall become a swell. 8040. A boy who is trying to become a swell is very often objectionable, is he not ? — Very. It un- fortunately gives a bad tone to the school, because, as you know, a swell in the way you put it is a boy who is thought a very fine fellow by the little boys, and his opinions have great influence w-ith them. If he thinks it " slow " to read, they will think it " slow " to read, and it is exactly in that line that the big lower boy's influence exists. 8041. If he thinks it right to smoke, they will smoke ? — Yes. 8042. Can you give us any idea of what the boys mean by the word " swell ?" — I cannot. {A Commissioner.) I believe "swells" are boya who are distinguished in the games chiefly. 8043. {Sir S. Northcote.) It is what a certain class of boys lay themselves out for ? — I think it should be understood that a boy may become " a swell " in the school without exercising any pernicious influence ; for instance, a boy in " the eight " or " the eleven " would always be considered one of the " swells' of the school. 8044. It is the wouldrbe swells who are the objec- tionable fellows, is it not r — Yes. You asked me if I could suggest anything. There is one difficulty whicii has arisen out of the limit of the pupil rooms, which is very likely to affect the out-door pupils, and to make two classes of boys at Eton. Some tutor? will not accept out-door pupils. Three cases have recently occurred where it has been arranged that boys should come to me, and the parent has expressed a wish that they should go to a particular tutor. The tutor on being asked said, " I cannot take him into " my pupil room, but I can into my house." 8045. Do you think the school is too large altogether, or do you think it is capable safely of indefinite expan- sion ? — I think it is large enough, but capable of indefinite expansion. 8046. Do you think the tendency of its being so large is to break the boys up into sets according to their houses ; do the boys in each house keep together very much ? — I hardly think that. That which has separated the boys very much has been the competi- tion between the houses for foot ball, rowing and for house matches of different kinds ; of, course those matters have a peculiar interest for the boys, and they may not mix so generally in the games. 8047. The effect is, is it not, that the boys in the small houses are rather badly off in the games? — A boy or three or four boys in a small house will attach themselves to a larger house. 8048. {Lord Lyttelton.) Have you observed lately PUBLIC SCHOOLS COMMISSION: — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 263 anything objectionable at all in the tone of the boat- ing boys as compared with the rest of the school ? — No, I think the tone of the boating boys has been much improved. 8049. That may depend on the character of the boys at the head of the boats ? — Very much ; l)ut the whole tone of the boats is very much improved. I think when Sir Stafford Northcote was at Eton I was on the Bath- ing Committee with Bishop Selwyn ; we, together, organised the swimming school ; as we were both good swimmers ; it was placed in our hands to carry out, and the organisation of the swimming school placed the "boats" under the discipline of the school. Before that period they were not allowed. This system got rid of the watermen ; in those days there Avere watermen in each of the lower boats " to save the boys from accidents, and it was Bishop Selwyn's plan to get rid of them. 8050. There is one point, as to the habits of your house, which I think is rather peculiar ; do not your elder boys assist you in reading prayers ? — They do ; my captain, is at Oxford now, and the second captain read prayers this morning before I came away. 8051. That is rather peculiar, is it not? — I have not heard of its being done in other houses. 8002. Do you thiuk the effect is good ? — Most un- doubtedly. 8003. Perhaps boys would do the same if required in other houses ? — I think they wonld. 8004. {Sir S. Northcote.) You must give it to the captain to do usually ? — I should ask the captain to do it. 8055. The captain might not be the most suitable boy ? — Some other boy would do it. 8056. {Lord Lyttclton.) You do not conceive that the present scale of charges at Eton is enough fairly to remunerate the dame ? — No. 8057. But taking one boy with another in a dame's house, he costs his father somewhere about 160/. a year ? — Yes, including expenses with which Eton should not be charged, as, for instance, tailors' bills and the like. 8058. Is not it rather a serious thing if, as I under- stand you, it should be requisite to increase the charge at Eton ? — I have not suggested such a thing. 8059. But if the dames are not fairly paid now, how may it be done ? — In the observations I have made I confined myself strictly to my owu house. 8060. I asked you whether you thought the dames, the ladies, made a fair profit for their position in life, and you said you did not think so ? — The dame has 10 guineas less than I have ; she has not more than 70 guineas. The treatment of the boy is so much improved that I do not think she can possibly conduct her house with advantage to herself. 8051. How do you look to that evil being met ? — By a moderate increase of charge. 8052. Do you think that the charges in the dames' houses might fairly be raised ? — I think so. 8063. {3Ir. Thompson.') Raised to the level of your own house, for instance ? — I think so. 8064. Would you say it would be fair that all the houses should charge 80/. for the board, and that that ■was sufficient, independent of the tutorial fees ? — That is a difficult question ; I believe there are many per- sons who would be very glad to avail themselves of less expensive houses. 8065. I do not mean in that way. Would you think that 80/. was a remunerative sum for keeping a boarding house, supposing the number of boys was what it is at present, 30 or 40 ? — On the scale which is established in my house it is not remunerative, and nothing but the great number enables me to keep the house together as it is. 8066. ( Lord Clarendon.) There are about 36 weeks in the year, are there not ? — 38 weeks. 8067. Would you say a boy costs you more than 21. a week ? — He costs me more than 60/. a year. It is the establishment which costs so much ; we are 60 in family. I give the " evening things; " they cost 470/. a year. I was the first person at Eton who gave the "evening things." It is difficult to explain this. These things for their tea were sent formerly from shops, and there was a charge of six guineas a year for them. Boys were constantly complaining that the tea was bad, and the butter also ; it brought improper people to the house, and I determined to give it myself. I gave them the tea, sugar, bread, butter, and milk, without any extra charge, and I found that at the end of the year it cost me 470/. I have gone into a minute calculation, and it cost me 11/. 10s. Od. a week. 8068. {Mr.Twislcton.) Meat included? — No, bread, butter, tea, sugar, and milk. 8069. {Mr. Thompson.) For how many boys ? — 46 boys. At the lowest calculation it cost 5s. a week for each boy. 8070. {Lord Clarendon.) Simply for the tea? — Tea, sugar, bread, butter, and milk. Their tea and part of their breakfast. , 8071. {Lord Devon.") Does it include the breakfast? — Yes. At breakfast they have tea and sugar. 8072. {Sir S, Northcote.) The only difference as regards breakfast between the present and the former practice is, that formerly boys had their rolls and but- ter, but not tea and coffee supplied them, and now they have tea and coffee as well ? — Yes, they now have tea and coffee and an extra roll, formerly they had only two rolls and butter. 8073. {Lord Clarendon.) If you say that the parents were charged six guineas a year for their things, why did you take upon yourself to do it gratuitously ?— . Things were then rather cheaper, and I thought I could afford it, but I had no idea of the cost. 8074. Has it been generally adopted ? — Yes. 8075. " Evening things" are supplied by others? — I believe generally. ■ 8076. {Mr. Twisleton.) At 9 o'clock there is supper, is there not ? — Yes. 8077. Do they go to bed shortly after? — They have prayers at half-past 9 ; the lower boys go to bed at 10, and the fifth form at half-past 10. 8078. In your opinion is that a good distribution of the meals, that the supper should be only half an hour before some of the boys go to bed? — Generally speaking it is about a quarter to 9. It is impossible to have it sooner, because they are engaged in the pupil rooms. 8079. I can understand that there may be engage- ments in the school which render it imperative, but is it your opinion that in itself that is a good distri- bution of the meals ? — I think it is. 8080. {Sir S. Northcote.) With regard to drawing, do you think more could be done to introduce drawing into the school, or to make the study more general ? — I think more might be done, but it must be done by concession of time. I had the Drawing school for 30 years, and there was more work done then, though it was not so well done as now. 8081. You mean more boys learnt it? — Yes. I think you will remember that the fifth form construing was at half-past 10. There was a sort of general order in the school; you could calculate on the time ; but now each master seems to make his own arrangements, and it is impossible to have that class. I used to bo in the pupil room or the playing fields with my pupils from 7 to 10, but that cannot be done now. 8082. (J/r. Twisleton.) Supposing it were desirable to instruct all boys in elementary drawing, what time a week would be requisite for that ? 8083. {Lord Lyttelton.) As part of the school work ? — In the first place, I do not think it would bo desirable, and in the next place, I think it would require so much time, and such a staff, that it would be perfectly impossible to carry it out. Our drawing at Eton is artistic drawing, we endeavour to forward those pupils who are really fond of it, by giving them the best opportunity of caiTying out their talents, and by making artists of them. I think drawing might be more encouraged than it is. 8083. {Mr. Twisleton.) Is it not in your opinion right that every boy should learn elementary drawing ? — In the way in which it is taught by the Schools of Design you never would get Eton boys to follow tho system, Kk 4 ETON. W. Evans, Esfj, 20 Nov. lSf.2. 264. PUBLIC SCHOOLS COMMISSION: — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ETON. 8084. What is there iu the system of the Schools of Design ? Tlio routine is this : boys are put to draw ^y.Eva>is,Esq. gpj.tain lines for a certain length of time, and until 20 Nov 1862 they have gone through all those studies they are not " ■ permitted to attempt to go into anything like form or design. I need liardly appeal to men who know Eton well? whether it is not impossible to get boys together in sets, and to put such examples before them, and to expect attention for any length of time; the system is di-y and uninteresting. I should desire to do any- thing to promote a real love for Art, but 1 do not think that does. 8085. It never has been actually tried at Eton, has it. It is a mere matter of opinion ? — It has not been tried. There are boys at Eton now who know as much of drawing as would enable them to work their way on as artists. I think it better to encourage and promote excellence in those who have a taste for Art, than to give the whole school an imperfect smattering of what is called " design." 8086. (Lord Clarendon.) Are those boys in your own house ? — No. 8087. That is, they have natural tastes which they have cultivated ? — My idea is, that the duty of Eton is to encourage those tastes, giving them the power Adjourned till to know what is really good in Art. Without ex- pressing any opinion as to the general system of the Schools of Design, I think it is not at all suited to Eton boys. 8088. Is there anything else which you would like to suggest upon any point, if there is we should be glad to hear it? I was going to mention our library. We liave a library in our house, it answers most perfectly, and is of great value. It consists of above 1,400 volumes, which belong exclusively to the boys iu the house. 8089. Will you say how it has been formed, I think you have had it presented to you chiefly ? — r Chiefly contributions by old inmates. We have excellent works of history and books of reference. 8090. {Lord Clarendon.) And the boys use the books ? — They not only use them, but they care for them ; they are under their care. 8091. You do not know of a library in the tutors' houses ? — I do not know of any, but there may be. 8092. {Sir S. Northcote.) Boys can borrow from the school library ? — I do not know. 8093. Do you think the physical energy of the boys has at all degenerated since j'ou were ^t IJtQij ?-=r. No ; certainly i}ot, to-morrow. Victoria Street, Friday, 21st November 1862. J. T. Walford, Esq. 21 Nov. 1862. Earl of Clarendon. Earl of Devon. Lord Lyttelton. Sib Stafford Northcote, Bart. PRESENT Hon. Edward Twisleton, Rev. W. H. Thompson. H, Halford Vaughan, Esq, The earl OF CLARENDON in the Chaib, J. T. Walforp, E 8094. (Lord Clarendon.) Mr. Walford, you are Classical Master at Eton, I believe ?T^Yes. 8095. How long have you been so ?-^About two years, 8096. (Lord Lyttelton.) Have you a boarding house ? — No. 8097. (Lord Clarendon.) Are you a Master of Arts of Cambridge ? — Of King's College, Cambridge. 8098. The first point to which I would direct your attention is the constitution of the school, as it affects the position of the Head and the assistant and mathematical masters ? — It seems to me a bad thing for the school that the Head Master should be so dependent upon the superior authority of a Provost and Fellows. 8099. (Lord Lyttelton.) Will you state how far he is dependent, so that we may understand the precise limits of his dependence ? — The school, as I understand, is supposed to belong to the Provost and Fellows, and not to the Head Master, He is to carry out their will, and iu point of fact he is so dependent on the Provost and Fellows that 1 believe I may say he cannot even change a book in the school without consulting them and getting their leave todo so. 8100. {Lord Clarendon.) Have you since you have been at Eton, in common with any other assistant masters, perceived any particular evil to result from this state of things ? — Yes ; a slavish adherence to antiquated traditions, solely because they are the established rule of the place, and a jealous opposition to any innovation on, or proposal to depart from them. 8101. Can you give us any instance of such oppo- sition ? — Yes ; some time since the fourth form mas- ters met together evening after evening, between 10 and 12 p.m., to consider the obviously unsatisfactory arrangement of the work in our part of the school ; and, after minute and careful consideration, we drew p a scheme for the entire remodelling of it. 8102. What was the nature of the change you recommended to be made ? — I do not remember all J,he details ; but, amongst other suggestions, we ven- sq,, M,A., examined, tured to propose the abolition of certain books now in use, and the substitution of others in their place ; that certain alterations should be made in the exer- cises ; and tliat the inconvenient additional lesson for new boys, called " library," should be abolished ; 10 make up for which we proposed to lengthen the time devoted to the construing lessons in school for the v/hole fourth form. 8103. (Sir S. Northcote.) Perhivps you can give us the names of the principal books which you proposed to do away with, and those which you proposed to substitute for them ?,-— One of them is known as " Farnab}'," it is a collection of Greek epigrams, which, in our opinion, are a great deal too hard for boys in that part of the school. The other that we pro- posed to alter is the ^sop that is used, on account of the questionable Greek that occurs in it, especially in the morals, which also are often too hard for boys of average fourth form calibre. 8104. What did you propose to substitute for iEsop and Farnaby ? — A new Greek reading book, compiled partly from xEsop, partly from other authors, strictly Attic, 8105. (Lord Clarendon.) A book that would have to be compiled specially ?— Yes, 8106. How long ago was that plan agreed upon liy the fourth form masters ? — About a year ago, I think, 8107. Was it submitted to the Head Master? — Yes, to the late Head Master. 8108. Have you any reason to think that he ap- proved of it ? — None that I know of, 8109. Was any notice taken of it ? — Not at the time. The present Head Master however, who was appointed some two months afterwards, has since sanc- tioned two of the changes we suggested, viz., the abolition of the second copy of verses exacted in regular weeks, aijd a certain difference in the system employed in our history lessons. But the books remain the same, and he has declined to consent to the abo- lition of the most vexatious of the arrangements we were anxious to alter, viz., " library." PUBLIC SCHOOLS COMMISSION: — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 265 8110. Just state to us what is the mcnning of the institution called " library " ? — It is called '• library " from haviug been originally held in a room called the library. It is intended for the new boys who first come into the fourth form from the lower school, or from private schools, and who, not having got into the Eton method of doing the work, and parsing ■Greek, require extra drill in their Greek lessons and Greek grammar, and so the day before each Greek lesson they have an extra drill in it, with special reference to the grammar. It is jnit at one o'clock and so breaks up one of the principal times for the boys' play and tutors' work. 8111. These libraries are compulsoiT, I iiresume ? — Yes, for all the new boys, and those who come from the lower school. 8112. {Sir a. jVortftcote.) Is it not the case that the Head Master himself comes in at the library ? — He has taken it this half. 8113. Is it understood that that is what he intends to continue to do ? — I do not know. 8114. Supposing that he does intend to continue it, does not that give him an opportunity of ascer- taining what is the state of the boys who come to the school, and also give him an idea of the condition in which they come out of the lower school ? — I should think it might be valuable if he always took it ; but I understand that it is a simple experi- ment for this half. At present there seems to be a great absurdity' in the arrangement of this lesson. It is only held twice a year, during the iirst five weeks after the Christmas holidays and tlie first five weeks after the promotion in June, so that the new bo3s who come after the summer holidays have to go through their first half without any such assistance, and those who come after Easter are not submitted to this discipline till the end of June. 8115. {3Jr. Thompson.) There is no library at other times ? — It is a new thing having it at other times. It was only twice a year ; and the absurdity of the arrangement consists in this, that, although it is intended for new boj's, two out of the three batches of new boys, viz., those who come at Easter and in September, manage to get on their first two months in the fourth fin'm without it. 8116. And that is the practical answer to your request that the institution should be abolished ? — Yes ; another of the practical disadvantages of the arrangement, and which shows the absurdity of the system, is this, that all the lessons which are done in library have been previously done with the tutors in the pupil room. 8117. So that, first of all, the boy construes his lesson in the pupil room, then in the library, and then in the school, the same lesson ? — Yes, the same lesson, only in library the chief point is the grammar. 8118. {Sir S. Xorthcote.) I should like to ask in reference to the work in the fourth form and else- where, what you think of the suggestion which has been made, that instead of there being a master to each form, the whole of the masters being of the same rank, tlie senior masters should be viceroys over parts of the school ? — I think it would be a great advantage that, instead of having a system of senioritj-, they should appoint masters according to their powers and according to the work for which they are best adapted. It seems to me that there is a great waste of our power in making all the masters do the same work, whereas some are better adapted for training the higher forms in comjiosition, others for teaching and disciplining the lower. If masters could be selected with reference to their aptitude for the special work, and made viceroys over different departments in the school, I think it would act very beneficially ; that advantage has been shown in a very marked manner by the success attending the appointment of the lower master. In the head form of the lower school, over which Mr. Carter presides, the teaching is very eflicient. 8119. I should like to ask you, as a fourth form master, how you think the boys come out of the lower 1. ICTON. ,/. T. Wulfurd, Esq, school as compared with those boys who come from preparatory schools. Which do j'ou think are the best ? — I had not my attention directed to this matter until after I left the lower form. I have got the middle form now, and I can hardly tell which are 21 Nov. 1862. the best. 8120. Do you think that those boys who come from elsewhere are in a state of decent preparation ? — Generally speaking, I think not ; and I consider that one of the great disadvantages that we have to con- tend with at Eton, that the boys are so badly prepared before they come to the school. 8121. Iladly prepared in grammar? — -Yes; badly prepared in grammar. 8122. AVhat is your opinion of the work of the tutors with special reference to the construing system ? I think it entirely overtasks them. It renders them unable to do their work thoroughl}-. 8123. Just give us an idea of what is the work of the tutors with reference to the construing system ? Almost every lesson that has to be done in school has to be done over with the tutor first of all out of school in the pupil room. Each tutor is responsible for the work of all his pupils, in whatever part of the school they may be. He has to hear the sixth form construe, the fifth form construe, the remove construe, the fourth form construe, and to look over every exercise done by his pupils, so that the snnount of work he has to get through is almost as great as if he kept a school of his own, and attended to the whole work of it himself without any assistant. 8124. {Lord L;/ttilton.) How many private pupils have you ? — About 1 V. I cannot thoroughly attend to more, though I may be obliged to take more ; but if I had more I could not manage them and do the school work thoroughly as well. 812o. With reference to your statement that the masters are overdone, how many hours a day do you work yourself ? — In a regular work, I calculate about 10 hours a day. 8126. Audi [u-esume that if you had twice as many pupils you coidd not work much more than that ? — No. 8127. {Mr. Vauijlinii.) .Should you say that it is at all a characteristie of tlie E(on system that on the whole the nntsters do too much for the boys, and the lioys do too little for themselves ? — Yes; I think so, in a certain sense. 8128. {Lord Lylldton.) A^'ith regard to the con- struing svstem, you must have often heard the argu- ments in favour of it which its friends give. It has been expressed by a well-known proverb, " Set a thief " to catch a thief;" that the tutor will naturally take more pains with the work with a boy because he knows that the -work will be seen by the master in school. What force do you give to that argu- nicnt ? — Hardly any, so far as construing goes ; but with respect to looking over the exercises, a great deal. I do not think, however, with respect to con- struing, that any weight attaches to it at all. 8129. But you thiiik it is valu.able with regard to looking over the exercises ? — It is very valuable as regards looking over the exercises, and the fact that the tutor knows that his corrections will be submitted to the criticism of another master in school makes him more punctual and careful with them. 8130. You would retain that feature ? — Yes. 8131. How would 3-ou propose to modify the present system of construing in the pupil room ? — I should propose that the number of boys in each form should be considerably reduced, that the construing in pupil room should be altogether abandoned, and that the boys below the fifth form should come into school or pupil room to prepare their lessons, and get help when they cannot make them out. 8132. Primarily, therefore, you would throw it on the boys themselves to do the work, looking only for help in particular cases ? — Yes ; I would make them learn the lessons in school or in pupil room, and at the same time I would lengthen the actual school hours. I think the lessons might be more thoroughly and satisfactorily learnt in school. LI 266 PUBLIC SCHOOLS COMMISSION: — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. ETON. ". Wal Esq.' ■>\ Nov. 1862. 8133. You -woulil llii-ow more weight on the school work than ou the work of tlie boys with the tutors ? — J. T.Walford, Yes. 8134. And you see a great advantage in giving more time to the tutor who is overdone witli un- necessary work ? — Yes. It is impossible from the number of lessons that are to be heard during the day for a master to give much time to the pi-eparatiou of tiie work, and difficult to get it done well by the boys either in tlie pujiil room or in school. 8135. (Lord Clarendon.) You say you take 17 pupils now, and are not disposed to take any more ? — I am certainly not disposed to take any more. I have got a few mor(> coming that will raise my number in the course of tiic year to about 20. 8136. You do not think that you can do justice to more ? — I do not think I can do thorough justice to so many under tlic present system. 8137. I would ask you this. Supposing a man takes 50 boys, what justice could he do to them ; is it possible that he could any ? — I do not think it is possible that he could do what I consider justice to them. 8138. What would you say is the proper limit ? — If the construing system were done away with, and the masters had more time, they would perhaps be able to do justice to a larger number of pupils ; but at the present time I do not see how a man can do what I consider justice to more than 20. 8139. You do not feel that you could yourself do justice to more than 20 ? — Not to more. As it is, in order to get through the work of construing, masters are obliged to take too short a time for the lesson, sometimes a quarter of an hour, and some- times 10 minutes only. 8140. {Mr. Vaughan.^ Masters in class ?— No. ; in pupil-room. 8141. (Lord Lyttelton.) Are you acquainted with Marlborough ? — Yes. 8142. Do you conceive the number of masters at Marlborough to the boys to be satisfactory ? — I believe it is about 30 boys to each master. 8143. Not so many ; not more than 27 ? — I think we ought to have at least one master for every 30 boys. 8144. (Sir S. Northcote.) When you speak of the number of pupils that a tutor can manage, it depends a little on whether they are in the same part of the school, does it not ? — They are never all in the same part of the school. 8145. {3Ir. Vaunhan.) Do you think the private business system is at all overdone at Eton as compared with the class work business ? — Yes ; I think the work in school is subordinate to the work with the tutors. 8146. You think that a boy on the whole gives less pains and takes less interest in his school work, owing to the existence of the private work, than he takes in that work ? — No ; I think that those who do work, work with a view to shining in school more than with a view to shining in the pupil room. 8147. In what sense should you say then that the class work becomes subordinate to the private business ? — Because the boys have to do more wiih their tutor than in school. 8148. I was using the word "private business " as it is used at Eton, not applying it to any work done before the tutor, except private business ? — I beg your pardon ; I misunderstood you. 8149. Understanding you then to have given an opinion upon that other point, I wish to know your opinion upon this ?— -I should not think in this sense it took an unreasonable proportion to the school- work. 8150. (T^ord Li/ltelfoii.) The boy who hopes to get the Newcastle scholarship would labour more, would he not, in work he could do by himself, or with what his tutor advises, that is to say, the help wliich his tutor could give him, than about any of the public school work ? — I think so. 8151. (i/r. Thompson.) Would there be any possible also change their places remedy for tliat ? — He must go of course by the advice of Ills ]irivate tutor. He would always go by that. I would keep vip the tutorial system liy all means. 8152. (3/r. I'anghan.) I suppose that reason would only ajjply to the few boys reading for the Newcastle scholarship ? — Only to a few. 8153. (Sir S. Northcote.) Do you think the relative importance of private business has increased since you were at Eton as a boy, or is it much the same as it was wlien you were there as a boy ? — I hardh- know. 8154. I mean, looking back to your own time as a boy, private business was certainly subordinate to tlie school work then ? — Yes. 8155. I am speaking of the relative importance of pi-ivate business, as compared with the ordinary school work, do you think the private business has increased in relative importance to the school work since you have been at Eton ? — Not that I know of. 8156. {L^ord Lyttelton.) What year did you leave Eton ?-1852. 8157. (Mr. Vavghan.) I understand there is a sort of stimulus given to. a boy in his class work, which consists in the place that he may gain in the promo- tion to the next form ? — That is only about once in a year, or in a year and a half. 8158. So seldom as that ? — Yes. 8159. How many promotions are there in the year ? — A boy coming out of the lower school has to be a year and a half in the fourth form, a year in the remove, a year in the lower fifth, and a year in the middle fifth. 8160. So that a boy has only one promotion in the year ? — Only one competitive. 8161. Do they not, as they move from one division into the division above, relatively to each other ? — No. SI 62. They only simply remove from one lo another ? — Yes. 8163. Is not that a very great defect in the school ? — Very great ; that is one of the points some of us are wishing to alter. What we complain of is that, although there are "collections" at the end of each half year, the result does not aiFect the places of the boys. Till recently a list containing the result of " collections " was printed and sent home to the parents ; but now that has been discontinued, so that now scarcely any one knows what place a boy has taken in " collections." 8164. So that that artificial stimulus is only acting perhaps three or four times during the period the boys are at school ? — Exactly. Besides this, there are no such things as marks given for the school work day by day to tell upon the Ijoy's places. 8165. (J^ord Clarendon.) Will you tell us generally what you think of the school work? — I think it is extremely unsatisfactoi'y. 8166. In what way is it bad? — First of all in the arrangement of the work. This is the result of the construing system, the effect of which is, that to a great extent all the fifth form do the same work, and a variety of work to correspond with the different stages of the fifth form is precluded. Each of the masters has to hear in pupil room almost all the lessons done throughout the upper school every day, and of cou)'se that affects the number and variety of the lessons, and so the boys who have just got into the fifth form do exactly the same lessons, and come to construe with boys in the upper fifth of 17 or 18 ye.ars of age, and in some cases with the sixth form. 8167. {Mr. Vaughan.) We have heard an apology for that, which consists in two things, the first is that, although so many divisions do the same authors, yet there are parts in those authors that are very hard, and parts that are very easy, therefore the boys at the top of the fifth form may get the hard pass.ages. while, at the same time, there are also passages which may l)e given to and easily comprehended by the bottom of the fifth form generally ; the second is this, that the same work is done in a different manner, or may be done in a different manner by the masters PUBLIC SCHOOLS COMMLSSION : —MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 267 of the different forms, and in that way, although all nomliiallv do the same authors, they get a very different discipline. Both of these points have been iira;ed. Do vou agree that practicully they remetl}- the inconvenience ? — No, I do not think so at all, by any means. 8168. (Mr. Twisleton.) It i.s, in point of fact, a beautiful theory whicli is not sanctioned by practice ? I think the present construing system of Eton would be an admirable one if the dnj'^were 24 hours longer than it is, and we had strength, in jiroportion, to do the work. That work should 1)6 thoroughly done ; but with the limited time we have it is almost im- possible to do it tiioroughly. There is scarcely any time for reading at all. 8169. {Lord Li/ttelton.) Is there any other respect in which you consider the school work unsatisfactory ? — Yes. I think it is a disadvantage, resulting from the overwhelming preponderance of Cambridge men among the masters, that while our best efforts are very properly directed towards imparting an accuiate critical knowledge of the Iniigunges, we neglect to a very great extent what may be called the Oxford element in education, viz., the careful analysis of the argument, and the digesting thoroughly the subject- matter of the books we read. In the same way, it seems to me that we hardly do our boys justice in omitting to train them in writing essays. It is true they have to write Latin themes week after week, but in looking them over our attention is directed more to the elegance or accuracy of the language than to the arrangement of the subject, and the way in which it is worked out ; and in this I think that our boys compete for Balliol scholarships at a decided disadvantage with candidates from llugby or Marl- borough. In addition to this, with respect to the composition generally, I cannot help thinking that, though the boys have plenty to write, and got plenty of practice, they do not get sufficient instruction in it. Boys are often unable to decipher or understand their tutors' corrections. It seems to me that the want of this systematic instruction is felt especially with respect to Greek iambics and Greek prose, and in trans- lations as contrasted with original exercises ; and in support of my opinion, I venture to refer to the com- parative number of King's men who have gained the Browne's and Porson prizes respectively fit Cam- bridge. 8170. {Mr. Thompson.) In respect to construing, may I ask is it ever the case that, after hearing the boys construe and correcting their mistakes, any tutor construes the lessons over to the lioys in the best English he can command ? — I do not remember anything of flie kind in my own school days here, and I should think it would be quite the exception now. There is no time for it. 8171. {Mr. Ticisleton.) There is not time for any- thing of the kind ? — -No ; not with the time usually dovoted to the school lessons. 8172. {Mr. Thotnpson.) Do they ever hear good translations from the masters that they can take down ? — They hear plenty of good renderings of individual phrases, but seldom, I should say, of whole passages, and even then there are only one or two masters, I believe, who train boys to take notes of them. 8173. Do you not think it is important that they should ? — I think so myself. 8174. More important than the boys construing themselves, almost ? — Yes, to a certain extent ; especially in the higher parts of the school. 8175. A master will do it occasionally in school ? — Sometimes, perhaps. But there are no appliances for writing his translation down. 8176. Do you think the majority of the masters do it for their pupils ? — No ; the time is so very short, both in school and pupil-room ; it is only about half an hour. 8177. {Mr. Vaughan.) For the construing system an apology of this sort has been offered, — that in consequence of the boys doing the lessons twice over, once to the tutor and 'oncQ to the master in class, there is a degree of rough work got rid of before the tutor, and that the master in class is thereby enabled to give more time and attention in the way of teach- ing to the class before him than he would be able to do if he had to give as much attention to the con- struing ? — I can only state my experience, and that is, that the boys very seldom come to school with their lessons well prepared ; in general they are quite the contrary. Of course if a boy came into the school and could stand up and construe his lesson well, one would be able to spend most of the time in explaining the lesson, in giving illustrations and parsing ; but at present almost all my time is taken up in making the boys understand the simple con- struing. 8178. {Mr. Twisleton.) So that there is some- thing at present like a sheer waste of time ? — ,Tust so. But besides that, in consequence of the number of lessons each tutor is obliged to go through with his pupils at " construing," and the limited "time he has at his disposal for that purpose, he is often obliged to put only his clever boys on to construe. And one great difficulty I had to contend against on my first aj^poiutment as a master was the thoroughly established practice of allowing boys to come into school with the English translation written word for word over the Latin or Greek, as the case mi"-ht be. 8179. Should you not say there is a system of "shirking " in the lessons, just as there is" in other matters to which you have alluded ? — Yes. This practice was thoroughly est.'iblished, and even coun- tenanced, that I was actually remonstrated with by one of my colleagues for refusing to allow anythino- of the kind to go on in my division. 8180. {Sir S. Northcote.) What argument did he use ? — That it was an established and recognized practice. I suppose it is also a convenient one for the master ; a.s, of course, a boy with the translation of his lesson written over it gives much less trouble and takes much less time over it than he would other- wise. 8181. {Mr. Thompson.) Would you say that in fine seasons of the year a boy spends more time in work or in play ? — More in play, I should think. 8182. Do you know if it is the case that five hours are considered barely sufficient for cricket ? — I should think it was. 8183. That a boy cannot attain the proficiency in cricket which at Eton a boy aspires to, without five hours a day study of it ? — I should think so. 8184. How long will that boy study Greek and Latin who devotes five hours a day to cricket ? Not very long ; there are, however, some exceptions. 8185. Would it not require a boy of strong consti- tution to read six hours a day in the classics, after having studied five hours in cricket ? Yes. 8186. You think the masters are overworked ; are the boys sufficiently worked ? — It seems to me to be the result of our system at Eton that an immense deal of work is got out of the masters, with com- paratively little out of the boys. 8187. {Mr. Twisleton.) You would like to have the system reversed, and get as much time for exer- cise for the masters as the boys themselves have ?— In proportion. I have been three or four days together without going out at all. 8188. {Sir S. Northcote.) VYould you apply that observation to the amount of time which is spent in work by the boys in the fourth form, as well as to the boys who are in the upper part of the school ? No ; not to the boys in the fourth form. 8189. In the fourth form you do consider the boys on the whole are worked fairly, and indeed as much as can be reasonably expected ? — Yes, I think so. If one could only get them to learn their lessons there would be an immense deal of work got out of the fourth form. They have to do a great many verses and exercises. 8190. In the fourth form a boy's time is so fully filled up with work that he has not more time for LI 2 ETON. J. T. Walford, Esq. 21 Nov. 1862. 26S PUBLIC SCHOOLS COMMISSION -.—MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. ETON. /. T. WatforJ, 21 Nov. 18G2. l.lay than he might rcasonnhlf be expected to have ? 1 tliiiik he has not qnitc enough time for play. 8191. With regard to the remove, are they fanly ■worked ? — Thev are overworked. 8192. {Lord Li/ttrl ton.) You are speakhig from recollection of the' work done by the boys as well as llie work done by the masters ? — Yes. 8193. {Mr. Thompsnii.) Suppose the Head Master had some power to re-organize the classes and the teaching in the school, do you think it probable that it couUf be done soon and readily ?— It could easi.ly be done if he would do it, and had the power to do it. 8194. You think if the Ile.id Master had the power he would have tlie wish to do it ?— I think he has shown that he has the wish. I think he has shown something of the kind by taking " library " this half, and by so doing he has had an opportunity of learning the state of the work. 8195. You attribute, as I understand, a great deal of this bad organization to the Provost and Fellows having the chief authority, and to the Head Master having no power of inaugurating any change, or no power to resist change if suggested by the Provost and Fellows ? — I supi)ose he has not. 8196. Do you kiiow any case in your own know- ledge in which any change has been resisted ? — No ; no such case is likely to come before me. 8197. No case in which any change proposed by superior authority has been resisted, either by the Head blaster or other masters ? — No. 8198. You do not thirdv there would be any great resistance on the part of the Head Master to the suggestions of the under masters, supposing they suggested changes which might be considered for the benefit of the school ? — I should hope not. The majority of the masters are in favour of some change, and are anxious for it. I know they are in the fourth form, because we agreed to the scheme mentioned above. The remove masters have also met and dis- cussed the work of their department of the school. 8199. {Lord Lyffdton.) Do yon think the whole body of the assistant masters ought to be permitted to meet together and discuss the propriety of changes ? — Most certainly. There is a great want of organization at present, which is in great part attributable to the want of the masters meeting together and discussing matters relating to the school. I may say that in this I si)eak from experience of other schools, having worked for one quarter under Dr. A^aughan at Harrow, so that I have seen the system at work there. 8200. Was that system in existence there, and did it work satisfactorily ? — Yes, most satisfactorily. The assistant masters met every Wednesday evening for one or two hours, the whole body of them, at the house of the Head Master, when any question requiring ventilation was discussed, and all necessary arrangements made for the coming week. 8201. {Mr. T/^owi;)*©;;.) Would you say, comparing the two schools togethci-, that more work is done at Harrow than is done at Eton ? — No, I do not think so ; but I think if we consider the amount of work we get out of (he boys at Eton, without organization, that if we had the organization that exists at Harrow to help us, we should get a great deal more out of them. 8202. Do you think that scholarship is as highly esteemed at Eton as at Harrow ? — Yes, I think it is quite. 8203. That they are .as enlightened, so to speak, at Eton as they are at Harrow, with regard to the im- portance of intellectual distinctions generally. Are clever boys as much looked up to at Eton as they are at Harrow ; are they more looked up to or are they less ? — I had so little to do with the upper part of the school at Harrow wlien I was there that I cannot answer that question ; but in the lower part of the school there was more opposition given to a boy who was a hard worker than there is at Eton. 8204. You mean to say that they are more perse- cuted ? — Yes. I think the boys at Harro^v who worked hard used to get more teased by the other boys than those who work hard at Eton. 8205. {Lord Lijttelton.) They cannot be said fco be teased at all at Eton ? — No, I do not think they are. 8206. {Mr. Thompson.) Do you think that the lelative importance which the boys at Eton attach to athletic exercises, as compared to scholarship and talent, is much about the same as prevails at Harrow. I mean to say, is the relative importance which they attach to intelleclual and corporeal merit much the same at the two schools ? — Yes, I should think that it is ver}' much the same. 8207. In point of fact they look up very much more to a boy who distinguishes himself in boating and cricket than to a boy who distinguishes himself cither in Greek or in speaking at the Union Club, or in any branch of literature ? — Probably among the higher l)oys at Harrow there is more of a feeling iu favour of literary distinction than exists at Eton, from the fact that more notice is taken of it there. The great misfortune is, that when an old Etonian gains any distinction at Cambridge or Oxford, no notice is taken of the fact at Eton. 8208. {Mr. Vauff/ian.) Do they not give a holiday for it ?— No. 8209. (il/r. Thompson.') There is not any unwill- ingness in the abstract to give holidays. There are abundance of holidays given on other accounts ? — There are so many traditionary holidays in our calen- dar, it might be difficult to give more. 8210. {Mr. Vaifffhan.) With regard to the point of constitution, of which you have been speaking, do you not think that one natural effect of cutting off' the active interference of the Provost with the Head Master in the work of the school would be that the Head Master would naturally 1)0 thrown more into contact with the assistant masters on the same subjects, so that they would rather take that place of advisers to him which now, from the constitution of the school, the Provost is obliged to take ? — Quite so ; I think the Head Master at Eton does not altogether occupy a sufficiently high position, and his influence is not felt in the school as much as it ought to be. 8211. {L^ord L^i/ttclton.) Do you consider that j)ractically the authority and power of the Provost are felt in the school ? — Not amongst the boys. 8212. But as to the regulation of the school ? — Yes. 8213. {Mr. Twislefon.) His power of obstruction is enormous ? — Yes, it is enormous. The assistant masters are hardly recognized as existing by the Provost and Fellows ; they do not even give us a sufficient number of seats in the college chapel. 8214. {L^ord Clarendon.) Do not the classical masters have se.its in chapel ? — One bench is usually set apart by courtesy, but they are not sure of getting seats. There are only sufficient seats there for 10 on the bench, which by courtesy is allotted to the classical masters, so that unless we come in in very good time, we run the chance of not getting a saet at all. 8215. {Mr. Van ff hem.) It is the theory of the school that there are only two masters, one Head Master, and one under master ? — Yes, only two masters, one Head and one lo\ver master, and only 70 boys. 8216. {Lord L^ytlelton.) Would the assistant mas- ter ever think of asking for an interview with the Provost to talk over school matters with him ? — An assistant master would not, I imagine, be allowed an official interview with the Provost for such a purpose. The plan he would have to adopt would be to go to the Head Master and make his suggestions to him, and the Head Master would go to the Provost, and so perhaps the matter would fall through altogether. The Head Master's hands are so permanently full that he can hardly get through even the routine work of the school. I think that he has much more routine work and less of a position than the Head Masters of Harrow, Eugliy, or Marlborough hold iu PUBLIC SCHOOLS COMMISSION: — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 269 their respective schools. His influence over the school consequently is not so gre.it, .ami in point of fact the influence of ii tutor is greater with his pupils than that of the Head Master. 8217. {Lord C'lai-endoti.) With respect to the discipline of the school and to that system of shirking of which we have heard, what is your opinion ni)on that point ? — 1 think that that system of shirking seems to be at the bottom of a great deal of evil at Eton. A boy may do what is wrong, but the fault often seems to consist in his being found out. 8218. {Lord Lyttelton.) Do you think that it has nn injurious effect beyond the mere question of shirk- ing itself? — I think that it really has a moral efiect upon the boys, i)erhaps, without their being conscious of it ; I have heard boys themselves argue against it. 8219. {Lord Clarendon.) It makes them think that detection is a worse fault than the commission of an offence ? — Yes ; I stopped a boy the other day who was walking in the street with his football things on, which is against the rules ; 1 met him and stopped him, and when I asked him how it was, he said by way of excuse, " I am very sorry, sir, that I did not '' see you in time, or I should have shirked you." 8220. There is this argument used in favour of shirking, that it gives the master the power of punisli- ing a boy whom he has reason to suspect of something wrong, but to whom he cannot bring it exactly home and ju'ove it, although he may be morally convinced ? — I think it would be nuieh better, in respect to .shirking, if there were definite bounds, if for instance AVindsor bridge were m.ade the definite bounds, and then if any boy were found out of lionnds it should be understood that he would be ]nniished. I tliiuk that would be intelligildc to tlie boys. 8221. {Sir S. Northcotc.) In order to maintain a control over the boys when they are allowed to go freely over the country, the master nmst have the power of punishing them when tliey do anything they ought not to do. If for instance a boy is seen carry- ing a gun or getting into any mischief they might be punished for it ? — That f oidd be done without any recourse to the shirking system. 8222. But the argument is, that when a master sees a boy out of bounds and has reason to believe that the boy is at mischief but cannot prove it, he is able to punish him for being out of bounds ? — 'J'he boy has merely to " shirk," and then we are expected to take no notice of him. I think that the systeni of winking at .any breach of rules, especially with respect to public-houses, is a very bad one. 8223. {Lord Chirciuloii.) You sa}' with respect to public-houses ? — Yes, there are two which the boj's principally go to, one is the Christopher and the other is the Tap. The Old Christopher used to be within the college bounds, but when it was removed into the town the person who kept the Tap took a private house just outside the college bounds and set up a beer-shop, which is practically winked at by the masters. 8224. {Lord Lyttclton.) Is it not distinctly allov.ed by the masters ? — No. If we see a boy coming out of it, we are expected to speak to him about it and to tell his tutor, and the tutor may request us to com- plain of him or set him an imposition, or leave the ease with him to deal with privately. Nothing is more perplexing than the course which one ought to take on seeing a boy coming out of such places, from the want of some definite rule on the subject ; indeed, we have been advised that it is much better not to see or notice a boy under such circumstance if he takes the customary precautions .against detection, or acknowledges the master's authority by " shirking." For my own part, I cannot help considering the fre- quenting such places an objectionable habit, and I cannot but believe that it is in the power of the masters, if they wished it, to stop its being a fashion- able thing with the leading boys of the school to go to these places, in support of which position I venture to quote the instances of Harrow and Eugby as schools in which, though situated in towns as ours is, such institutions are neither countenanced by the autho- rities nor habitually frequented by the boys. 8225. {L.ord Lyttclton.) Do you think that there is much drinking to excess at Eton ? — No. The number of the boj's who frequent the Tap and the Christopher is very great. I should think that very often 100 boys go there in the course of a day. 8226. {Lord Lyttelton.) After the games? — No, it is not after the games. 1 think it is simply because it is the fashion to go there. 8227. {Mr. 21ionipson.) How many boys do you say go in there in the course of the day ? — I should think very often a hundred into the two ])laees. 8228. {L^ord Clarendon.) Do they go theiv, as it were, for the purpose of society? — More for the pur- pose of society at the Tap, certainly. It is true it is well regulated, being under the management of the capt-ivin of the boats. Rules are printed with the name of the captain of the boats at the bottom, and they are very strictly observed. They do not allow the boys to smoke there, and they are very strict about language and behaviour. The only objection is, that if a boy breaks a rule the fine is more beer, •so the very strictness always le.ads to more drinking. 8229. Is it well fitted up? — They are very ordinary looms, I believe. 8230. {I^ord L.yltelton.) The Christopher is more lax than the Tap ? — Yes. 8231. {Mr. Vaiighan.) The great evil at the Tap is the lounging there? — Partly, and the expense it leads to. It often leads the boys into expense and into debt. 8232. ( Mr. Thompson.) Do thev meet any of the townspeople there ? — No ; my objection is ju'incipally to its being forbidden and yet winked at ; that seems to me the great objection. 8233. {Lord Lyttclton.) After the games they must get it, of course ? — It is not after the games that they go there generally. They have beer down on the ground after football always. 8234. {Sir S. Xorthcotc.) Have you ever heard that the reason for going there is that the beer is not good which they get from the liouses ? — Boys have alleged the excuse sometimes. 8235. Is it not the case at some of the houses that the beer is not alw.ays quite what it should be ? — I cannot say. But I do know th.at some of the masters take special pains that such a charge shall not be brought against tliera, aiul some allow the boys to get beer whenever they want it in theii- houses in order to try and induce them to give up going to the Tap ; yet still they go there. 8236. Do you think there is any general objection to the system of reporting boj'S to the tutor before they are comjilained of ? — No ; the master who catches them may not know them even by sight, and he gets an account from the tutor who knows them well what sort of boys they are. 8237. {Lord Clarendon.) What is the institution called " cellar " ? — It is a fashionable sort of club. The captain of the boats is at the head of it, and he has the power of inviting any opiiidan he likes to come to it; in fact it is a meeting after dinner on half or whole holidays of the " swells " of the school to discuss some beer and cheese ; and this is so far counten.anced that masters have allowed boys to leave their dinner table before the end of dinner to go to it. 8238. [L.ord Lijttelton.) Is that held in the Tap ? — Yes. > 8239. (il/?-. Tliompson.) They have not anj- cheese at their own tables, have they ? — Not generally, I believe ; but it is not on that account they go. 8240. {Sir S. Northcote.) It is only the last rem- nant of a sei'ics of entertainments that used to be given at which a great deal of drinking used to take place ? — Yes ; the authorities stopped them, and I think that they ought to have stopped this too. 8241. {Lord Clarendon.) Is the Tap kept up ex- pressly for the boys ? — No. 8242. Do other people come in ? — They come in and stand simply at the bar. I believe they do not LI 3 ETON. J. T. Waljmd, Esq. 21 Nov. 1862. 270 PUBLIC SCHOOLS COMMISSION : — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. ETON. go into the room. It i-s in this rer^pect au extremely well mmiaged place, so tliat the boys are quite safe r. Wal/ord, there. Esq. 8243 (Lord Lyitelton.) The objectionable part is the (lishoncr-tr of the shirking system ?— Ye^, it is 21 Nov. 1862. ^jjp piiirking system which I think objectionable. 8244. {Lord Clarendon.) The Christopher is open to everybody ?— Yes. It is open to everybody. 8'?45 (Mr. Thompson.) When tlie Christoplier was within the bounds of the school had the boys free access to it ?— No. It was more under the masters eyes then than it is now. A great number of boys give breakfasts at the Christoplier. 8246. {Sir S. Northcote.) They do now .-*— les. 8247. {Mr. r/iompson.) Boys are allowed to give breakfasts, are they not, in their own houses at certain times ?— Yes ; but tliey cannot give them to very many on account of the want of accommodation, and the extra trouble they would entail on the servants. 8248. {Lord Clarendon.) Let me ask you, Mr. Walford, what you consider to be the cause of the idleness of the oppidans and their inferiority to the colleo-ers, so generally admitted by both parties i— WelC I think first of all it is the immense amount of patronage which is given to the games instead of to the int'ellectual development of the boys. The masters patronise them by their presence, whilst hardly sufficient encouragement is given to boys who gain prizes, and one great reason of that is, that the prizes are so badly managed. None of the prize exercises, are recited. Hardly any of them are ever printed, and it is very often through the " Times " that I find out who has gained the prizes at Eton. Several times since I have been there as a master I have not known who got a particular prize^till I saw the notice of it by accident in the " Times." 8249. You can scarcely say, then, that the giving of prizes stimulates a boy sufficiently ?— No. When I was at school here there was no definite informa- tion given us about some of the jirizes we might compete for. We did not know their value, or the ondition on which they were proposed. For the home and verse prizes no distinct subjects were, as a ule, set ; there was little or no glory attached to gaining them. The books were given quite privately. I do not think that in these respects the system has changed since. 8250. Is the system materially different for the collegers ? — That would tell on the whole school ; but what I have stated above, with the preponderating influence of the swells of the school, would be the principal causes. 82-'>l. That might account for the inferiority and the idleness of the oppidans, but it does not account for the superiority which seems incontestible on the part of the collegers ? — The collegers have got a spirit of work brought about among them in consequence of the extra examinations that they go in for, and having the competition for their places for King's always before them. The oppidans, however, have got ra- ther more than they used to have in the way of some examinations in the 5th form, but there is no exami- nation for the 6th form. The oppidan portion of the 6th form simply consists of those who get to the top by staying longest at school. 8252. {Mr. Vaufffian.) The old boys drift into the 6th ? — After being in the upper 5th, if he stays long enough, a boy gets to the top of the school neces- sarily. 8253. (Lord Lyi/elton.) T>o yon agree that sepa- rate prizes for the oppidans for which the collegers should not be allowed to compete would be advisable. Have you heard of that suggestion ?— I do not re- member that I have. 8254. There is no question about what are called the swells. Can you tell us clearly what you think as to their importance in maintaining the character of the school generally. Do you think it necessary that the swells should be young men of honourable cha- racter ? — Not absolutely essential, certainly. 8255. Do you think that to be a swell a boy must have a good general character ? — No ; that is an advantage, no doubt, but I think it is not essential. 8256. It increases his influence, however ? — Yes ; I think a good swell has a great influence for good. 8257. (Mr. Thompson.) Would any amount of talent or attainment entitle a boy to rank among what you call swells ? — No ; not without he were a very popular boy, or were distinguished in athletic exer- cises as well. 8258. But suppose that besides being a very clever boy, and also a veiy generally popular boy, he was in- different to or inapt for athletic or other amusements, could he possibly rank among them ? — If he were a very popular boy he might. 8259. But generally speaking, who are most looked up to. Are they the boys who distinguish themselves in some athletic exercise ? — Yes. 8260. And the masters, you think, are rather in- clined to encourage that spirit in the boys than to discourage it ? — I think so. 8261. {Mr. Vaughan.) Would you consider that that is characteristic of Eton as compared with other schools ? — Yes. 8262. What is it to be traced to. It must, I pre- sume, have some historical origin. It is not an ancient tradition of the school, is it ? — I do not know. 8263. {Mr. Thompson.) Do you think that the opinion that muscle is superior to brain has grown up in the school ; and has that opinion or prejudice increased or diminished in the school since you were a boy there yourself? — I almost think it has increased, so far as I can judge. 8264. Can you attribute that to the influence of certain popular works ? — I suppose it is rather the fashion of the day to speak in favour of what is called muscular Christianity. 8265. Do the masters ever join the boys in their games ? — Yes ; a good deal. 8266. Do you think that advisable or the reverse ? — It depends upon what game it is the masters join in. 8267. {Sir S. Northcote.) Does it lead to the boys taking liberties with the masters? — Not that , I know of. 8268. Do you not think that it might ? — I think that it might do so. 8269. {I^ord Lyttelton^ Do you know it as a fact ? — Yes, to a certain extent. 8270. {Sir S. Northcote.) Does tlie master feel himself in an awkward position in regard to his com- mand of the boys in consequence of joining them in their games. Does that create any difficulty ? — No ; I do not think it does. 8271. {I-,ord Clarendon^ I would beg to ask your opinion respecting the chapel services. What do you think of them ? — I think that the present plan of the chapel services is very bad indeed. Making the boys go upon holidays and not upon school days is a very bad plan. Every holiday a boy is obliged to go twice, at 1 1 and at 3, and on half holidays once, an arrangement which cuts up their playtime uselessly. The boys look upon these chapel services simply, ex- cept in one or two cases, as a mere roll call, and what is still worse, scarcely any of the masters attend. The boys have often been iu chapel when even the masters who are supposed to be there on duty are not all pre- sent. 8272. The boys, I suppose, go there on those occa- sions with a very different sort of feeling from that with which they go there on Sunday ? — Yes. 8273. {Lord I^yttelton.) Would you suggest any substitution for the chapel services ? — I think that a short daily service every morning would be advanta- geous ; but there would be some difficulty about it in consequence of the time it takes to get the boys in and out of chapel. 8274. {Mr. Thompson.) Would not that be as unpopular as the existing system is ? — Perhaps if it were put as an extra thing it would, PUBLIC SCHOOLS COMMISSION :—3IINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 271 8275. {Lord Li/ttelto/i.) But suppose it was put in substitution for I lie present? — 'I'lieu I do not think it would. 8276. Does it occur to you tliat it niiglit be substi- tuted for prayers in the several houses. If you had a short service as you have suggested, would you main- tain those that are used in the houses ? — I think if we had service in chapel we might do awaj' with the morning prayers in the houses. 8277. And does it occur to you that if you did you might have some singing with it ? — Yes, we should have some singing certainly. On Sunday mornings especially the services are very bad. 8278. You do not think the boys would dislike it ? No, I think they alwaj's attend better when there is singing, in what is called long church, than when there is none. 8279. (Lord Clarendon.) You have had some ex- perience of Harrow. Should you say that there was any insurmountable objection to a man coming to Eton to be a master theie who had not been educated at Eton ? — I think it would be very valuable to have some masters who had not been educated there. 8280. Do you think that the mystery of Eton ETON. education and Eton teaching is so inscrutable that it would be impossible to be attained by men who had J- T. Walford, not been educated at Eton ? — No ; on the contrary, ^*'/- some of us would be very glad to have some other ,,, ■J' '.„„, blood infused into the system. " ' 8281. {Mr. VdtKjIian.) Do you not consider that to a certain degree it is a disadvantage to the school that the intellectual part of it should all be placed in one build- ing, and that the other part should be scattered around and outside? — I think it would be ver}' much better if they were amalgamated together. 1 tliink that the arrangement you allude to should be done away with, and that no difference should exist between the oppi- dans and the collegers in that respect. 8282. {Lord Lyttelton.) Were you a colleger ? — Yes, and I had a strong college feeling when at Eton. 8283. Do 3'ou Ihiidi that the collegers wish to do away with the gown ? — No, we were rather proud of it, and I think that the fault of the ill-feeling, which existed between the two bodies, was ciuite as much ou the side of the collegers as on that of the oppidans, if not more so. The witness withdrew. Mrs. E.MILV Kexyon examined. Mrs.E.Kenyoii. 8284. {Lord Clarendon.) I believe, Mrs. Kenyon, you have the management of the Sanatorium at Eton ? —Yes. 8285. How long have you been in that position ? — Two years. 8286. Who was in that place before? — Mrs. Hopwood. She was there 17 years. 8287. How long has the Sanatorium been built or established ? — Nearly 20 years. I think it was in the year 1844 that it was opened. 8288. (Lord Lyttelton.) It was established, I be- lieve, by the late Dr. Hawtrey ? — Yes. 8289. When he was HeiTd Master ? — Yes. 8290. Was Mrs. Hopwood the first person who had the management of it ? — -Yes. 8291. And you succeeded her ? — Yes. 8292. From whom did you receive the appointment you now hold ? — From the Provost. 8293. From the late Provost, Dr. Hawtrey ?— No, from Dr. Goodford, that is to say, it was Dr. Goodford who appointed me. It was the late Provost really, but it was Dr. Goodford who spoke for me. I did not see the Provost ou the subject at all ; it was Dr. Goodford I believe who gave me the appointment, though he applied to the late Provost for the appoint- ment for me. Dr. Goodford told me that the Provost would grant me the appointment. 8294. You look upon Dr. Goodford as the person with whom you communicated, Init you understood the appointment to be made by the Provost ? — By the Provost alone. 8295. {Sir S. Northcote.) Was there any paper drawn up at all ? — Nothing at all. 8296. (Lord Lyttelton.) It was merely virtually understood between yourself and the Head Master? — Just so. I was sent for by the Head Master, and he told me that the Provost had decided to appoint me. 8297. I do not waut to ask particulars of what you receive, but to whom have you looked since, and look now for the receipt of the salary ? — To the Provost. 8298. With regard to the use made of the Sanato- rium, what class of eases is it understood are intended to be sent there ? — It was for scarlet fever that it was originally built, though we have had other cases. I have brought one of the books of all the cases which I have had since I had the Sanatorium, but it was decidedly intended for scarlet fever, because it does not do alto- gether to bring iu other cases where scarlet fever is, and therefore we had two cottages furnished to put cases of diphtheria and small-pox, which it was desirable to get rid of out of the place. The Sanatorium is rightly for scarlet ie\er, but we have had other cases. There was the case of Lord Miuto's son who was taken ill, and at first it was thought he was taken ill with scarlet fever. 8299. Is it, generally speaking, meant for diseases which would be dangerous to leave in the houses? — Yes. 8300. You say you have two other cottages besides this ? — Yes, we have cottages with two bed rooms and a sitting room furnished to receive any cases of diphtheria or small-pox. In the case of Lord Miuto's son he was brought iu with a rash which the doctor thought was scarlet fever. The rash continued three or four da3's, and then it turned into a rash something like chicken pox, but eventually it turned out to be small-pox, and a very severe case indeed. 8301. At whose order was the patient received into the house? — The Provost's. 8302. Does the Provost send any one here he thinks projier ? — When Dr. Goodford was Head Master he gave an order, and now he is Provost he still con- tinues to give the order. 8303. Does he send a written order to you ? — Not at all. Dr. Goodford sends word to me that such a boy is ill, and he is seen by the doctor, and the doctor says such and such a case is to come in, and then I am always ready with my beds and bedding prepared, and a nurse kept to receive the boy. 1 have had as many as six cases at a time, and on each of these occasions I had nurses ready. 8304. Is six the highest number you have ever had there at a time ? — Yes ; I think so. 8305. Have you ever had all the beds in the Sana- torium occupied ? — Yes ; there have been school times when I have not had any cases. Last school time I had two cases of scarlet fever, and the school time before I had three cases of scarlet fever and one of small -pox. 8306. How much ground is there about it ? — There is a large garden round, but I have nothing whatever to do with it at all. There are two men kept that I can call upon, and there is a carriage which is used to send for the gentlemen, and those men are employed and paid by me to bring home any patient, and then they are brought into the house aud put into their rooms at once. 8307. You have always considered that both the late and the present Provost have been responsible for that establishment in their official character ? — Yes. 8308. You do not understand that Dr. Hawtrey had anything to do with it as a private affair of his own ? — Not at all. LI 4 272 PUBLIC SCHOOLS COMMISSION :— MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. ETON Mrs.E.Kenym. 21 Nov. 1862. 8309. Are yoii aware of the sum which the boy.s pay for the support of the Sanatorium V— I have nothing to do witli that. There is a subscription, and every invalid who comes in pays 3s. a day. 8310. That is paid by his parents, I suppose? — Yes. 8311. Are all the payments, as far as you have to do with them, regularly made, and all the supplies periodically furnished ?— Regularly every quarter. Everything is conducted in the most regular manner. I take mv book to the Provost, and he gives me a cheque, wliieii I take to the bankers ; and any monies which I receive from the ]iaren(s I pay into the bank, and they give me a receipt, and that receipt I take to the Provost. 8312. Now with regard to furnishing, and all the appliances there, do you consider that everything that is needed for the purposes to which they are devoted are properly supplied ?— Everything from the very con'"i'^ncement. f .ST 1. Have you ever made any requisition for things which has not been complied with ? — Not at all. Dr. Goodford has always given me everything that was necessary. 8314. Have you ever communicated directly with Dr. Hawtrey ? — No. 8315. You understand that it was at his request that Dr. Goodford undertook it ? — Yes. 8316. You have nothing to do with the present Head Master ?— Not at all. 8317. You understand that Dr. Goodford acted on behalf of the Provost formerly, and now acts on his own behalf? — Yes. 8318. {Mr. TJwmpson.) You have no complaint to make of the present state of the Sanatorium ? — No. 8319. {Sir S.Northcote.) Nor any suggestion with regard to any improvement ? — There are several things that ought to be done ; new carpets arc wanted, and that sort of things that will be supplied. Since the small-pox case, a part of tlie house has been newly painted and coloured. The vvhole could not be painted and coloured then, but the medical man said that that part of the house that was occupied by that patient should be entirely cleaned down, repainted, and coloured, and the Provost said that e\-erytliing else should be done at the beginning of the year. 8320. {LorclLi/ttcltoii.) You ne\erhadany difficulty or scruple in applying for anything you wanted to be done ?— No. 8321. {Sir S. Northcote.) You have not been told that there was no money to do it ? — No. 8322. {A Commissioner.) Have you ever been in communication with the parents of the children in this Sanatorium ? — Yes; several of them have been there. Lord and Lady Minto on the last occasion came fre- quently, and were verj' much pleased with everything. 8323. They are very glad to have such an institu- tion ? — Yes, and the boys are very happy there. They feel of course nervous at first coming ; but before leaving they always say they have been per- fectly happy and contented. 8324. And have you had them long there at any one time ? — In two cases I had them there a month with me. 832.5. Is there any diiFerence in the air, in the climate, there ? — I do not know about that, but it is won- derful how they appear to get on. They certainly do wonderfully improve ; their appetites are good, and it is a very open situation. 8326. {Lord Clarendon.) The boys are happy there, and are not afraid of being lonely ? — No, I sit with them, and we have everything to amuse them as far as we can. We have games, and they have a library and everything that can tend to make them cheerful. Of course in cases of illness they do not like the restraint of being shut up, but otherwise they feel quite happy, and we have not had any case of complaint ; quite the contrary ; while on the other haud froni the parents I have always received the most satisfactory acknowledgment of the value of the institution. 8327. {Lord Lyttelton.) There is nothing inadequate in the appointments or in the dietary ; that is strictly ordered b}^ the doctor ? — Yes ; there is nothing paltry or mean, everything is carried out according to the directions of the doctor. 8328. {Lord Clarendon.) What is that you say the sick boys pay extra ? — Three shillings a day the sick boys ; but that does not meet the extra expense, of course. There is wine and poultry, and other things. 8329. You are not aware what the boys pay gene- rally for the support of the establishment ? — 1 do not know anj'thing about that, but three shillings a day is the charge that we make. 8330. {Lord Lyttelton.) Is there anything more that you wish to say on this subject ? — No. 8331. (Lord Clarendon.) No improvement that you wish to suggest ? — Not at all ; I think everything is as satisfactory as it can be. I have heard no com- plaint either from the boys or the parents. 8332. You think the parents are glad, in cases of infectious disease, to be able to send them there ? — They are very thankful at being able to send them there. We have had two cases of diphtheria, one a very severe one, lately, but I am thankful to say that that case, under Pi'ovidence, has been entirely restored, and the others are doing well. I have had 17 cases during the two years I have been there, and every thing has gone on very well. 8333. You are aware that there is a general payment made by the whole school ? — Yes. 8334. But with that you have nothing to do ? — No. I have known that fact in consequence of having been 12 years with Mr. Evans. Victoria Street, Saturday, 22iid November 1862. PRESENT : Hon. C. G. Lyttelton. 22 Nov. 1862. E.4,itL OF Clarendon. Eakl 01'" Devon. Lord Lvitelton. Sir Stafford Northcote, Bart. Hon. Edward Twisleton. Rev. W. H. Thompson. H. Halford Vaughan, Esq. The earl OF CLARENDON in the Chair. The Hon. C. G. Lyttelton examined. 833.5. {Lord Chirendon.) Mr. Lyttelton, how many years were you at Eton ? — Six years and a half. 8336. You are now at Trinjty College, Cambridge ? —Yes. 8337. How long have you been at Trinity ? — Two years and a quarter. 8338. Will you give us your opinion as to the re- lations existing between the oppidans and the col- legers when you were at Eton. Were they of a friendly character, and were the oppidans and the collegers considered to be on an equality with each other ? — Yes, I think the relations were very friendly. Perhaps they were not considered to be quite on an equality in the middle and lower parts of the school, but among the boys at the top of the school there is no doubt that the distinction nearly vanished, and PUBLIC SCHOOLS COMMISSION: — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE, 273 they associated with each other much more than in the other parts of the school ; but in the games they were almost entirely separate. 8339. To what do you attribute the distinction dis- appearing in the upper part of the school as compared with tliat which existed in the lower part of it ? — I believe the collegers themselves ascribed it in great measure to the fact of their wearing the gown. When a boy first comes to the school and sees a lot of other boys walking about in a peculiar dress, he naturally regards them as a separate class. He learns to get out of that as he gets older, but it is a long time before the impression vanishes entirely. 83-40. I suppose that there is a general impression at Eton that the scholarship of the scholars is superior to that of the oppidans ? — Yes, there is now. 8341. Do you think there is any feeling of respect or disrespect towards them upon that account ? — No. 8342. {Lord Lytteltoii.) They play at cricket to- gether upon equal terms, do they not? — Only a part of the collegers. I do not suppose that there are more than seven or eight of the collegers who join the oppidans at cricket. 8343. Do they at football ? — At football at the wall, part of the collegers play twice a week with the oppidans. 8344. Do they ever play at fives together ? — Yes. 8345. {Sir S. Northcote.) Is it not the case that when a boy first comes he looks on the collegers as a class, but that after he has been there some time he gets to know and to like some particular boys among them, and to look on them as individuals, and not as mere collegers ? — Yes. 8346. This is what takes place ; when first you go you look upon all the collegers as one class, but after a time you get to know some particular colleger who is in your own remove, or whom you have seen playing at some games, you get to like him, and so by degrees the prejudice wears off? — Yes. 8347. {Lord Lyttelton.) Did you ever give a leaving book to a colleger ? — Yes. 8348. Did you ever have a leaving book from a col- leger? — No ; I do not think they give leaving books to oppidans. 8349. {I^ord Clarendon.') They are never in the boats ? — No. 8350. They have a boat of their own ? — They have got a four oar. The collegers, I think, mostly play at cricket ; not many of them take to the river. 8351. {Sir S. Northcote.) Is the expense of the river one reason for that, I mean the expense attaching to the boats ? — I should think, most likely. 8352. {3rr. Twisleton.) Do you think their not being allowed to be in the same boats with the o|)pidans has anything to do with it ? — Yes, I think there is no doubt that if they were allowed to be in the boats with the oppidans some more of them would take to boating. 8353. {Sir S. Northcote.) Do not any of the oppi- dans and collegers ever go up the river in four-oars or skiffs together ? — No, I do not think they do. 8354. {Lord Devon.) Did you observe any differ- ence in the feeling between the oppidans and the col- legers at Eton during the six years that you were there ? — Yes, as I got higher in the school I thought the feeling towards the collegers was better. Latterly I I have no doubt there existed more cordiality. J 8355. {Lord Clarendon.) Do you think there is any desire on the part of the collegers to get rid of the gown or to keep it ? — I think they would like to get rid of it. : 8356. Generally speaking ? — Yes. ■ 8357. {Lord I^i/ttelton.) Was the president of the Debating Society a colleger in your time ? — Yes. 8358. {Lord Clarendon.) What do you consider to be the powers of the sixth form boys in the school ? — I think there is very little power possessed by them. 8359. {Ldrd Li/ttelton.) Over the oppidans, you mean ? — I think the sixth form has merely a shadow of authority. 1. 22 Nov. 1862. 8360. You mean over the oppidans ? — Yes ; the ETON, system of the collegers is much more monitorial. 8361. (Zorrf C/rtre«rfo«.) Nominally the sixth form Hon. has some power, has it not? — Yes, nominally they C.G.Lyitelloti, have almost full monitorial powers. 8362. But they are never exercised ? — Rarely. 8363. {Lord L>/ltelton.) You never had a sixth form boy set you an imposition or any kind of punish- ment ? — No. 8364. {Lord Clarendon.) Arc punishments ever inflicted on the boys by the sixth form ? — Yes, occa- sionally. 8365. What sort of punishments ? — I have known impositions set, writing out lines and so on ; but it is generally corporal punishment which is inflicted. 8366. {L^ord Clarendon.) Upon oppidans ? — Yes. 8367. {Mr. Twisleton.) For what sort of offences ? — Generally lor oft'ences in the house, making a noise, kicking uj) a row, or impudence. 8368. {Lord Clarendon.) What sort of corporal punishment does he inflict ; does he give him a licking? — Yes ; but I have seldom seen any of those lickings given so as to inflict any marks that are likely to last more than half an hour. 8369. (Mr. Thompson.) All the blows are given with the fist, are they ; none with a stick ? — None. 8370. {Lord Clarendon.) Is it generally done on the spur of the moment, or do they have them up next day ? — Occasionally there is what they call a college licking, which is a very solemn ceremonial, held in college, but these occur very rarely, perhaps once in a half. They are inflicted for general oft'ences against the sixth form in its capacity as guardians of public order. 8371. {Lord L^j/ttelton.) The collegers administer the punishment, do they not ? — Yes. 8372. Do the oppidans get college hidings of that sort ? — Yes. 8373. {Mr. Thompson.') For what description of offences are such punishments as that inflicted ? — For breaking windows, gross bullying, or if there is any offence committed against a sixth form boy by a Vioy whom he is not able to punish himself, the sixth form proliably would take it up, but, generally speaking, the sixth form boy is able to take the law into his own hands. 8374. {Lord Clarendon.) And the public opinion of the school is in favour of this sort of authority which the sixth form boys exercise ? — Yes. 8375. They never feel or express any dissatisfaction with respect to it ? — None whatever. 8376. Nor desire that any appeal should be made to the masters upon the subject of these punishments ? — Never. 8377. {Mr. Twisleton.) On these solemn occasions of which you have spoken, where a college licking is given, is that punishment administered with the fist ? — Yes ; it is not very severe, but it is more severe than those which are usually inflicted. 8378. {L^ord Clarendon.) It is only done with the fist, not with a stick ?— No, not with a stick. 8379. {Mr. Vaughan.) Is the communication be- tween those who lodge in different boarding-houses, putting the college aside, perfectly free ? — Yes ; one boy is at perfect liberty to mess with another boy living in a different boarding house. 8380. So that the mere lodging in different boarding houses is no obstacle at all to any communication be- tween the boys in college and out of it ? — No. 8381. And are friendships formed between the boys in different houses as well as between boys in the same house ? — Yes. 8382. {Lord Lyttelton.) They breakfast together ? —Often. 8383. {Lord Clarendon.) Wliat do you consider was the general tone at Eton while you were there ; was it a high, gentlemanlike, and honourable tone ? — Yes, I think so. No doubt of it. 8384. Do you think the public opinion of the school would be against any such offences as swearing, lying, and gambling ? — Yes. M m 27* PUBLIC SCHOOLS COMMISSION: — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. ETON. 8385. And that any boy who committed such offences would be worse thought of iu the school than those Hon. who did not ? — Yes, with some reservation with re- C.G.LijUeltm. gpect to lying to masters, as there always is at school. „ N^8C2. 8386. {Lord Lyttelton.) Any boy who was iu the " regular habit of drinking would be thought worse of, would he not ? — Yes. 8387. {Mr. Thompson^) You think that lying is more reprobated when it is practised towards certain cla.ises than when it is practised towards others. I suppose you mean that lying by one boy to another would be strongly reprobated ? — Yes, such lies as are malicious and told in earnest would be, but not mere " crams." 8388. Do you mean, for instance, that a boy would not be thought worse of if he lied to his tutor ? — Ho would not be thought worse of by the lower part of the school. I think. 8389. Not by the school ? — Not by the lower part of the school. 8390. You think that ho would by the upper part of the school ? — The more so the higher he gets. 8391. Supposing a serious breach of discipline were committed, and a boy were taxed with it, and suppo- sing that boy thought it was safe to deny it ; do you think a boy of the average morality in the upper part of the fifth form, and of, say, 15 or 16 years of age, would be likely to deny it? — No, not at all. 8392. I am speaking of a boy of the average morality. I do not say a very good boy cr a very bad boy. A very good toy would not, aud probably a very bad boy would, but you think that having regard to the general morality of the school, an average boy having got into a scrape through the commission of an offence would not, if he was charged with it, deny it, although he might deem or might know that the evidence which could be brought against him would not be sutficient to convict him ? — No, he certainly would not, nor would any boy if he thought his denial was likely to criminate any other boy. ■ 8393. I am not putting that ease ? — In no case would he be likely to. 8394. {Mr. Twisleton.) No boy would do it in such a case as that supposed, at Eton ? — I should say that no boy of average morality would ; besides that, public opinion would be very strong against him if he ventured to do so. 8395. {3Ir. Vaughan.) Are there any subjects upon which a boy would consider it fair to tell a fib to his master, whereas he would not upon other sub- jects tell one ? — Yes. 8396. Is there anything like an understanding among themselves as to the limits to which they might go in such eases ? — I should think there was a tacit understanding. 8397. And the masters know that a boy will pre- varicate upon certain questions, whereas upon others he will not? — Very likely. 8398. When a master trespasses upon ground upon which the boys do not think it is fair to be asked questions, do you -think that they would tell him a fib ? — ^It does not follow that they would. 8399. {Mr. Thompson.) Can you give us an instance now of a fib which would be thought allowable ? — Yes ; if a boy happened not to have begun a punishment which a master had set him, and he was asked about it, he would Ijc sure to say that he had not had time to finish it. That would lie generally thought allowable. 8400. {Lord Lyttelton.^ Do you mean in the upper part of the school, or the lower ? — Not only in quite the lower part of the school. 8401. {Mr. Thompson.) Have you the phrase " white lies " at Eton ? — No ; of course it is under- stood. 8402. {Sir S. Northcote.) Supposing a piece of mischief had been done, and a master wanted to find out who had done it, and questioned the boys upon it, would they consider themselves bound to answer ; supposing a window had been broken or an animal had been injured by anyone ? — They would generally find it out, no doubt. 8403. The boy who had done it would generally confess ? — Yes ; in cases of infringement of public order they would bo more likely to tell the truth than in those other cases to whicli I have referred. 8404. Did you ever know the boys as a body refuse to answer ? — No. 8405. {Mr. Vaughan.) Would the m.asters con- sider it fair to ask in such cases. For instance, if a punishable offence has been committed, would a master at Eton consider it fair to ask a boy whether he com- mitted it ? — I should think generally it would bo thought a fair question. 8406. {T^ord Clarendon.) Was there much drink- ing while you were at Eton ? — No, very little, I think. 8407. {Lord Lyttelton.) Do you think there is any difference between the boys who are in the boats aud the other boys of the school with respect to drinking ? — No doubt the boat boys een of advantage to you enough ; it was as much as toler.ably well. 8497. {Lord Lyttelton.) Private business books are generally of some difficulty, are they not ? — Yes. 8498. {Mr.Vaughan.) Inregard to private businees, what was done to induce a boy to take pains with that work or to prevent him from shirking it ? — He would be certainly flogged if he shirked it. 8499. Would his tu^or be likely to send him up for punishment in the same way as the master in class would ? — Yes. 8500. Does he gain anything in the way of reward for doing his work well ? — No. 8521. He simply has his tutor's approbation ? — Yes. 8502. {Lord L.yttelton.) Would it not help promo- tion in the school to do private business well ? — You would be a better scholar, and so get on faster. 8503. It would be more useful to those who were trying for distinctions ? — Yes. 8504. {Mr. Vaughan.) I suppose the priv.ate busi- ness was prepared out of the presence of the tutor ? — Yes. 8505. And there was only one construing of course of that business ? — Only one. 8506. Wa.s it the habit of the boys in private business, when there was only one construing, to get construes from one another ? — No ; I was the only boy in tiie house that had private business with my tutor, so that I could not easily have got a construe. 8507. You hardly know what the practice would be, I suppose ? — They would often learn it together, no doubt. 8508. How did it h.appen that you were the only boy that had private business ? — I was at a dame's, and the other pupils were not in the same house. 8509. If a boy had a construe of his private business fi-6m .another, would he get a punishment set him ? — Seldom. It would not be likely to transpire. 8510. {I^ord Clarendon.) Do the boys prepare their lessons alone or together ? — Sometimes alone and sometimes together. 8511. Was it at all the custom of the boys to do it for one another ? — They sometimes did it with a crib, and sometimes they learnt it together. It was dangerous to go into school after simply having had a construe from another boy. 8512. Did they help each other much with the composition ? — Not much. 8513. {Sir S. Northcote.) Was such a thing as coj)ying e.ach other's verses ever discovered to have been done ? — Yes. 8514. {Mr. Vaughan.) You mentioned just now that a boy would be flogged if he was idle before his tutor. Is flogging at Eton a recognized punishment for idleness ? — Yes. 8515. Even for that idleness which is not what may be called contumacious idleness, that is to say, if a boy simply comes up with a lesson extremely ill pre- pared ? — No, I do not think it is likely that he would be flogged in such a case as that. 8516. {Lord Lyttelton.) If he was supposed to have taken pains he would not be flogged 'i — No, I should say not. 8517. {Mr. Twisleton.) How many cuts would be given in flogging for idleness ? — That would rather dejiend upon the size of the boy ; about seven gene- rally. 8518. (Mr. Vaughan.) Does the master ever indi- cate whether it is to be a severe punishment or not when he sends up a boy ? — Yes, they write it on the bill, occasion.ally. 8519. {L^ord Clarendon.) Has flogging diminished since the time when you first went to Eton ? — No. 8520. '(Mr. Vaughan.) Is it any great dishonour to a boy to be flogged, or is it regarded as a natural incident of the day ? — It is regarded quite as a natural incident of the day. 8521. {Mr. Thompson.) If a boy passed through the school without being flogged would he be thought a sneak ? — No. 8522. (Mr. Ttoisleton.) The disgrace would be in the offence, and not in the punishment ? — Yes. 8523. {Lord Devon.) Supposing a form master to send up a boy to the Head Master, does the Head Master consult with the tutor, or communicate with him before be sets the punishment ? — No, very PUBLIC SCHOOLS COMMISSION: — MINUTES OP EVIDENCE. 2V7 sekloni. Ho considers himself a machine, and sel- dom takes any excuse ; observing that what has failed to satisfy the complainant, cannot satisfy him. 8.324. (Sir S. KorthcoteJ) Does the master who sends up the boy first consult with his tutor before he sends up the name to the Head Master ? — By no means necessarily. 8o25. Is not that always done, I thought it was ? — No, I do not think so ; the tutor generally hears of it eventually, I suppose. 8.526. Is it not always considered the rule ? — No, 1 am sure that is not the case. 8527. {Mr. Vattghan.) There are onl)' two masters who administer punishment, are there. Who flog ? — Only two. 8528. Is one of them the head master in the lower school ? — Yes. 8529. {Mr. Thompson.) Is there much difference among the different tutors as to their willingness or otherwise to send a boy up to be flogged ? — There may be some little difference. 8530. Not a marked one ?— No. 8531. There is some general understanding, I sup- pose, that such and such offences are flogable oflTences and so on ? — Yes. 8532. {Mr. Vaug/ia/i.) Is it not a rarer thing for a boy to be sent up by his tutor than it is for him to be sent up by his class master ? — I siiould think not. 8533. (Lord Clarendon.) What motive should you say there is for a boy of average industry and ability to study at Eton ? — Almost entirely home influence. 8534. And you think that where the home influence is not exercised, that is to say, where the parents are ifldifterent as to whether the boy gets on or not, it is felt at the school ? — Yes, immensely. 8535. And that then the masters are apt to be in different to the boys as well ? — Perhaps. 8536. So that a boy may stick almost all the time he is there at nearly the same point, without getting on ? — He must improve to a certain extent to pass his remove. 8537. (<^(V 5" Northcote.) It is considered a dis- grace to a boy to miss his remove, is it not ? — Yes. 8538. {Mr. Thompson.) He is not sent away ? — No. 8539. {Lord Lyttclton.) He would have some work in which he had failed to get up ? — Yes. 8540. {Mr. Vanghan.) How many masters at pre- sent send an account home to the parents of the pro- ficiency of a boy at the school ? — I should say all. 8541. Looking back to what you remember of your own ease or other eases, is that a mere matter of routine, or do you think it is a searching and faithful account ? — I think it is a searching one. Certainly with Mr. Jolmson, my tutor, it was a very searching account. 8542. And you think that it was generally ? — I should think so. 8543. You think there was no disposition on the part of the tutor, whenever those reports were sent in, to soften down matters in favour of the boy ? — No, rather the contraiy, if anything. 8544. Rather the contrary, you think ? — Yes. 8545. {Sir S. Northcote.) Was it not the case, with a good tutor, at nil events, that when he found a boy was not_disposed to work ho tried to l)ring the home influence to bear upon him ? — Yes, in extraordinary cases he would write home directly. 8546. {Mr. Vaiighan.) I suppase in that way, therefore, a tutor always knows whether the parents care very much how the boy gets on, or whether the letters sent with respect to his progress are put aside and not regarded ? — Yes. 8547. {Lord Clarendon.) Did you learn much his- tory and geography at Eton ? — Not very much. 8548. The only modern history, I suppose, that you learnt was by means of your own private reading ? — Yes, nearly all ; but at the same time Mr. Johnson set a great deal of store by any knowledge of nioilern history which you might possess, and which he took j)aius to elicit. 8549. But that branch of study was entirely volun- tary ? — A portion of Russell's Modern Europe was read for upper division trials, and the sixth form had to do two essays, generally on some modern sub- ject, a year. 8550. Do the tutors encourage its reading ? — Yes. 8551. Do they ever examine you or advise you upon it ?— Only casually. 8552. {I^ord Lyllclton.) Did you ever ask him what good books there were ? — I do not know that I ever had occasion. 8553. 'VVliat you did in modern history was entirely taken up in your leisure time ? — Almost entirely. 8554. Was not the study of modern history a good deal promoted by the debates ? — Yes. 8555. {Sir S. Northcote.) Mr. Johnson had a private debating society of his own, had he not, in the dis- cussions of which he took part ? — Yes. 8556. {Mr. Vaiighan.) Have you ever known a case in which a boy has been removed from Eton in consequence of his being hopelessly idle ? — I should think there have been such cases. We did not often hear of them, but I have no doubt that they have often occurred. 8557. {L^ord Clarendon.) Did you attend the French master ? — No. 8558. You did not learn French at Eton ? — Not a word. 8559. {Lord Lyttclton^ H.ardly any boys did, did they, at the time you were there ? — A small propor- tion of the school did. 8560. Were they supposed to lienefit much by the French master there ? — Yes, I believe so. I believe that now the whole thing is on a lai-ger scale, and tiiat there are now two or three masters. They have introduced a French paper into the upper division trials. 8561. That is quite recent, is it not ? — Since I left. 8562. Within the last few mouths ? — No ; I think it is a year or more. 8563. {Sir S. Northcote.) You have not heard that that paper has been discontinued since the present Head Master came ? — No. 8564. (J^ord Lyttclton.) Were they supposed to keep up what French tliey had if they did go to the French master ? — They would keep it up, no douljt. 8565. But they would not increase it much ? — They could increase it if they chose. 8566. ^Vas it not at a time of the day that was reckoned rather disagreeable ? — I think it was chiefly after lock up. 8567. {Lord Clarendon.) How much time do you consider you had for private reading a day ? — Nearly all the evening on every day except Tuesdays, Satur- days, and Sundays. 8568. Did the boys generally take to private read- ing in the house ? — Only the studious ones. 8569. {Lord L^yttelton.) The studious boys would read better in the evening than at any other time, probably ? — Yes. 8570. Reading for tlio Newcastle, for instance ? — Yes. 8571. {Mr. Thompson.) Without reference to the Newcastle, or any particular prize, did you know any boys who pursued a reguLar course of classical reading in their own rooms as a general thing ? — They certainly never would do that till within a year of the first Newcastle ; after that perhaps they might. 8572. Do you think an intelligent boy of \6 would not feel a curiosity to know something more of the classical authors than he could get from the school lessons ? — Yes ; but I do not think his reading would be very regular, if pursued without a regular olyect. 8573. You never heard of a boy reading through the whole of Sophocles by himself ? — Yes. Some read quite as much as a hard-reading man at the uni- versity, as the Newcastle approaches. 8574. {Lord Lyttellon.) A boy goes in for the Newcastle three times, or perhaps twice, while he is at Eton ? — He may. Mm 3 ETON. Hon. C. G. Lyttekon. 22 Nov. I8G2. 278 PUBLIC SCHOOLS COMMISSION :— MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. ETON. Hon. C. G. Lyltellon. 22 Nov. 1862. 8575. And you mean that they would not begin readinn- on their own account until about a year of their first going in for the Newcastle ? — T do not think they would read much, before that time. I think they would get enough reading in their private busi- ness and school work. 8576. {Mr. Thompson.) Enough to employ their time ? — Yes. 8577. {Lord Lijttelton.) I suppose a boy first goes In for the Newcastle about the age of 15 ? — Seldom: so early as that. ■ 8578. Then they would not begin to read inde- pendently until about the age of 16 ? — No, not often. 8579. {Lord Devon.) How many generally stand for the Newcastle ? — About 30. 8580. {Lord Clarendon). You were in the eleven, were you not ? — Yes. 8581. How many hours a day did you think it necessary to give to cricket ? — On half holidays, five hours at least, and on the whole school days not more than two hours generally ; although in some cases more. 8582. {Lord Lyttelton.) Can you say about how many hours a week are devoted to cricket, taking one day with another ? — Perliaps 24. . 8583. {Mr. Faz/^r/jaw.) There are three half holidays in a week, are there not ? — Yes. 8584. {Sir S. Northcote.) When you say that five hours are given to cricket on half holidays, are they the same boys who play generally both on holidays and on school days ? — Yes. 8585. I suppose boys who had got well on with their school work could give more time sometimes on whole school days ? — Yes. 8586. {Mr. Vaughan.) Wiis it necessary to give so much time as that to get into the eleven ? — Nearly always. 8587. I suppose the eleven are pretty nearly always at the top of the school ? — They are always in the fifth or sixth forni. 8588. {Lord Lyttelton.) With regard to the expense, what do you consider was the whole expense for cricket on the part of the captain ? — Very little. 8589. Could you say how much ? — I should say there was no special expense attaching to the office «f captain. 8590. {Mr. Vaughan.) Had you any instructions from a professed teacher of cricket when you were there ? — Yes, but wo did not pay for him. 8591. I suppose that regular instruction in cricket by a teacher would tend to shorten the time that it would be necessary for you to give to it in order to be perfectly proficient ? — You could not practise with him for more tlian a limited time. 8592. Did not the fact of his pointing out how you should stand, how you should strike, and to what points of the field you should strike the ball, and all that, shorten the learning of the art of cricket by the boys ? — I do not tliink it had that effect. 8593. It was indulged in more for the sake of the play perliaps as tlie skill increased ? — Yes. 8594. {Lord Clarendon.^ Since you have left Eton, when you have reflected on the time that you passed there, does it appear to you that that time was spent in a manner most beneficial to youreelf in respect to the knowledge that you acquired there ? It was no fault of the system, if such was not the case. 8595. You might have read more and acquired more knowledge if you liad chosen ? — Yes. 8596. There was nothing in the school system o^jposed to it ? — No. 8597. {Lord Lyttelton.) From what you have seen at Cambridge, have you heard anything of the mode of teaching classes at Eton which seemed to put it to a, disadvantage at all at that university ? No. 8598. Not as compared with other schools ? — I should think for my own part that they give too .Biucli original comi>osition. 8599. Not enough translation ? No. 8600. {Lord Clarendon.) Did they give too much time to verses ? — No ; but too much to original versification. 8601. {Mr. Vaughan.) If a boy got a recognized status as excelling in cricket or in boating, would that at all induce the master to let him olf easier in the school work ? — Yes ; perhaps it might a little. They would not admit it themselv-es, probably. 8602. {Sir S. Northcotc.) Do you think the effect of the masters joining as much as tliey do in the games of the boys is good ; do you see any objection to their doing so ? — Thej' have joined more since I left ; I thought there was no liarm in it when I was there. 8603. You do not think it leads to any want of respect for the masters on the part of the boys ? —No. 8704- {Lord Lyttelton.) With respect to mathe- matics, do you think that on the average a boy at Eton would learn raatheniatics enougli to enable him to go straight to Cambridge, without its being neces- .sary for him to have the assistance of a tutor between the time of his leaving Eton and going to the uni- versity ? — No doubt, if he chose to learn. 8605. Does a failure in mathematics at nil impede a boy's progress in the upper part of the school? — Yes ; if he did exceedingly badly in mathematics, however well he might do in classics, they could not let him pass. 8606. Could he pass his last trial in the upper division without a fair knowledge of the mathematics which he is required to do ? — A very small know- ledge indeed! of mathematics is required in such cases. 8607. Is there not proportionally a small knov\-- ledge of mathematics required in the highest part of the school to what is required in the lower part ? — Yes, perhaps so. 8608. {Mr. Vaughan.) With respect to fighting, is there much or little of that among the boys at Eton ? — Not much, and it is decreasing, I think. 8609. Has it decreased since you have known Eton ?— Yes. 8610. Is it the recognized way of settling quarrels ; do the masters recognize it as the regular mode of settling quarrels ? — They would interfere with it if they saw it going on, but if a boy appeared in scliool with two black eyes they would not take notice of it proliably. 8611. How does it happen, considering how free boys are with their tongues to each other, and bow few social restraints there are on them, that among such a mass of boys as there is at Eton, there is so little fighting ? — T have not considered the question. 8612. {Lord Clarendon.) Do you think you got mathematics enough at Eton to pass your matricula- tion examination at Cambridge ? — Yes ; but I had to look them over in the interval between Eton and Cambridge. 8613. {Mr. Thompson.) You were only examined as fur as simple equations ? — -Yes ; and I had to get up Euclid to the extent of two books. 8614. {Sir S. Northcotc.) With regard to private reading, do you think they generally read much Eng- lish literature, poetry, and so on ? — Yes ; all those of literary tastes would read a good deal. 8615. Do you think that all the boys, for instance, have read Shakspeare ? — No ; I should think a very small proportion. 8616. {Mr. Thompson.) Byron ; do they read Byron as much as Shakspeare ? — I should think more. 8617. And Tennyson ? — Yes. 8618. {3Ir. Twisleton.) Which are the favourite works there ? — I can hardly say. 8619. {3L: Thompson.) Do they read Milton ?— A few, no doubt. 8620. {Lord Lyttelton^ Do you think it was advantageous at Evans's to have that library ? — Yes, very much so. 8621. It would be to any house, I suppose ? — Yes. 8622. Did the fellows take many Iwoks out of the public school library ? — Not oppidans. PUBLIC SCHOOLS COMMISSION: — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 279 8623. They arc allowed to take them to their own rooms ? — Yes. 8624. (^Lord Devon.) Looking back to your time, does it occur to you that you would make any change if }-ou were au autocrat and the whole thing were in your hands ? — I shouhl increase the authority of the mathematical masters, if possible. 862o. You would improve their social status : — Yes ; and I think it would be a v-ery good thing to abolish the gown which the collegers wear, and efface as much as possible all distinctions between colleger and oppidan. I should wish to sec more translations, instead of so much original composition. ETONv Hon, C. G. Lyttelton I should also allow the masters to preach. I think also that the moat which is given at supper ought to be given at breakfast instead. 8626. In college ?— No ; in the whole school. 8627. {Mr. Thompson.) I think medical men would 22 Nov. 1862 support you iu that view ? — I should think they would. 8628. {Mr. Vaiighan.) In point of fact, is it not the case that the boys get breakfast after a fast of two hours aoid a half ? — Yes ; not quite so long as that, pei'haps, but after a considerable fast. Victoria Street, Tuesday, 16th December 1862. PKESENT i Earl op Clabendon. Earl op Devon. Lord Lyttelton. Hon Edwd. Twisleton. Sir Stafford Ngrthcote. Eev. W. H. Thompson. H. Halford Vaughan, Esq. The EARL OF CLAEENDON in the Chair. Arthur Campbell Ainger, Esq., examined. 8629. {Lord Clarendon.) You were on the founda- tion at Eton ? — Yes. . 8630. How long ? — Seven years. 8631. How old were you when you left ? — 19. 8632. You did not go to King's ?— No. ®633. You v/ere too old ? — Yes, I was. 8634. Was that the reason why you missed King's ? —Yes. 8635. At what college are you now ? — Trinity College, Cambridge. 8636. {Lord Lytteltoti.) Were you elected colleger from among the oppidans ? — No ; from a private tutor. 8637. You never were an oppidan ? — No, 8638. {Lord Clarendon.) Will you be so good aa to tell us what were the relations between the collegers and the oppidans there ; were they of a friendly character ? — They were hardly of a friendly character in the lower part of the school. It was almost a natural thing for a small oppidan to dislike t, small colleger. 8639. {Lord Lytlellon.) Can you account for that. Do you think it was the better sense of the boys in the upper part of the school ?— Yes ; and I think the feeling wore out. 8640. {Lord Clarendon.) The upper part were on a footing of perfect equality ? — :Yes ; and quite friendly. 8641. Mixing in the games of cricket and foot ball ?— Yes. 8642. And on a footing of perfect equality ? — Yes. 8643. Did they give leaving books to each other ? —Yes. 8644. {Lord Lijttelton.) And walk about to- gether at any time ? — Yes. 8645. Did they go up the Terrace at Windsor together ? — Yes ; or walked about the playing fields. 8646. Did you see any alteration in that state of things while you were there, or was it much the same all the time ? — It struck me we grew more friendly during the time I was there, but it might have been owing to only my own rising in the school. 8647. {Lord Clarendon.) The classical superiority of the collegers to the oppidans is quite unquestion- able now, is it not ? — Quite. 8648. (Lord Lyttelton. ) But not in mathematics, is it ? — No ; I do not think it is. 86'19. {Lord Clarendon.) Can you account for that, because there is a nmch larger number of oppidans than collegers ? — They have not so many examina- tions to keep them up to their work. 8650. {Mr. Tioisleton.) Are mathematics an im- portant element in the competitive examination for admission into Eton ? — They are more important now than they were when I was tliere. 865 L But during your time they were not an im- portant element ? — Not at all. 8652. May that fact have had something to do with the collegers not being necessarily superior in mathematics ? — I do not think much mathematics were known as a rule before a boy went to Eton. 8653. {Lord Lyttelton.) What special examina- tions have the collegers after admission and before they leave ? — They have examinations as collegers and examinations for King's. 8654. The examinations for King's I am aware of j but what others have they as collegers ? — An exa- mination called the intermediate examination. 8655. And that is peculiar to the collegers ? — Yes. 8656. What is the intermediate examination : that; is after upper division trials, is it not ? — Yes. 8657. Is it immediately after ? — No, not imme- diately after. It is a year before you first go in for King's. 8658. The oppidans have what you call upper division trials, which is for admission to the upper part of the division ? — Yes. 8659. After that have they any more examina- tions ? — No. 8660. {Sir iS. Northcete.) It is for admission into the upper division ? — Into the upper division. 8661. {Lord Lyttelton.) Into the whole division ? —Yes. 8662. Into how many classes ? — There are several classes and several masters; two or three. 8663. You mean that after the trials which admit into the whole upper division, oppidans have no more examinations ? — No. 8664. And what examinations have the collegers ? ~-They have the intermediates, and the examinations for King's. 8665. The intermediate was only once, was it ? Only once now, but it used to be twice when I was there. 8666. Do the collegers and the school understand . why that should be so : why the collegers should have that intermediate examination ?-— No, not why only the collegers should have it. 8667. Is it required by King's ? — 1 do not inow. M m 4 A, C. Ainger, Esq. IG Dec. 1862. 280 PUBLIC SCHOOLS COMMISSION: — MINUTES OF KVIDENCE. rroN. A. C. Ainger, Esq. IGDec. 1862. 8668. What is the nature of that examination. Is it in the whole school work ? — It is conducted by the lower master in the school work of the year before. He sets the papers. 8669. Are there distinctions ?— It makes an altera- tion in your place in college. 8670. Do you have that always one year before the examination for King's ? — Only one year before it. 8671. Then there might bo a long interval lietween the time of upper division trials and that of inter- mediate examinations ? — Not more than a year generally. 8672. About a year ? — About a year. 8673. Is it a more severe examination than the others ? — It includes a few special subjects. 8674. Are all collegers necessarily to go through that for admission ? — They are examined according to the year they stand in college. 8675. (Sir S. Northcote.) Are all the collegers in the school who have once got into the upper division required to pass the intermediate examination at the same time ? — No. 8676. {Lord Lytlelton.) It is according to their age ? — Yes. 8677. {Sir S. Northcote.) A boy who got up into the upper division at Easter, 1861, would not go into competition at the intermediate examination with a boy who got iuto the upper division at Easter, 1860 ? — It depends upon his age. They go in at the age of 16. 8678. {Lord Lyiteltou.) What are the special sub- jects that are included in this intermediate exami- nation ? — They used to be the History of Greece and Eome. 8679. Did those special subjects vary from time to time ? — No. 8680. Is this intermediate examination a severer and more difficult examination than that of tlie upper division trials ? — I sliould say it was about the same. 8681. And is the final examination for King's more difficult or about the same ? — More difficult. 8682. It is the highest examination of all ?— Yes, except the Newcastle. 8683. Is it clearly understood in the school why this special examination is thought requisite for the collegers ? — I believe it is intended to keep them up to their work. 8684. But do you perceive any reason why the oppidans should not have that advantage too ? — No, I do not. 8685. Do you know when it was introduced ? — No. 8686. Probably it was introduced at the time when the whole system of King's was reformed and made more competitive ? — Yes. 8687. Can you say on an average how long a boy had been in the upper division before he got into the sixth form ? — Perhaps two years. 8688. {Mr. Twisleton.) So that in that case for two years his place in the school would not be depen- dent upon his own exertions ? — No. 8689. {Sir S. Northcote.) At what time was the intermediate examination held ? — It was in the mid- dle of the summer school time. 8690. And then it did not include any boys who would be examined in the election that was then coming off? — No. 8691. But it would include all boys who would come in for the election of the year after ? — Yes, all of the age of 16. 8692. It might include boys who were two or three removes below each other, or four or five. I mean a boy who had got into the upper division a year or a year and a half later than another boy who was also 16, might compete with him in the intermediate ex- ammation .ind take his place in college ? Yes. 8693. {Mr. Tioisletoii.) Have you ever considered what would be the eifect on the oppidans of admit- tnig tht;m to competition with college boys to King's ? — No, I have not. 8694. {Lord Lijttelton.) Do you conceive that generally speaking, the parents of the collegers are more anxious that they should be studious, and look them up in that respect than those of the oppidans ? — They know that more depends upon it in their cases. 8695. {Lord Clarendon.) Generally among the collegers there is a notion that they will ha^c to work for their livelihood ? — Yes. 8696. {Lord Lijttelton.) Are you aware that among the oppidans there is a general notion that there are very many of them whose prospects in life do not depend on their working hard ? — Yes. 8697. {Lord Clarendon.) Was it considered in the last examination for King's that all the boys were on an equal footing, or was it considered that those who were 18 would, if possible, be preferred to those of 17 ? — They were expected to do better than those of 17. 8698. But supposing a boy of 17 was decidedly a cleverer boy and did better than the boy of 18, was it considered that he would get King's, or that he would have to wait for another year ? — Cases have been known of his being put above the other boy, but it is not usual unless he is very superior. 8699. AVould the boys of 18 feel themselves ag- grieved by a boy of 17 being put over their heads ? — No, I do not think they would. 8700. They would not say " He will get it next year, and it throws us out altogether"? — They might feel it in that light. 8701. It was considered to be a real competition between all those who were allowed to go in ; thatt the best of them would get it ? — Yes ; the difference of age being considered, as I have mentioned. 8702. {Mr. Twisleton.) But a boy of a greater age would have a certain advantage in the competi- tion ? — He would be expected to pass a better exami- nation at 18 than at 17, but some consideration would be had for its being his last chance. 8703. You say that a boy of 17 if he passed a decidedly better one would he preferred : that involves the supposition that if his superiority was not de- cided lie would not be preferred ? — No, he would not. 8704. Therefore in such a case there would be an advantage to one who was somewhat older, would there not ? — No, unless he passed a better examina- tion than his previous one he would not be on the indentures at all. 8705. {Lord I^yttclton.) Is there much interest felt among the collegers about the Newcastle Scholar- ship, and who gets it ? — Yes. 8706. More than among the oppidans ? — Yes. 8707. Is it thought more natural among the school generally, and more to be expected, that a colleger should be a hard reading boy than an oppidan ? — Yes. 8708. {Lord Clarendon.) The oppidans have al- most withdrawn from competition for the Newcastle, have they not ? — Not almost. 8709. {Lord Lyttelton.) They do go in for it ? — Yes. 8710. It is well known that the collegers almost always have got it ? — Yes, of late years. 8711. {Lord Clarendon.) There has been a ques- tion raised sometimes whether it would not be useful to have prizes for oppidans exclusively. Should you think that would be a good plan ? — No, I do not think so. 8712. Do you think the oppidans would not like tliat ? — No, I think they would not. 8713. {Lord Lyttelton.) Do you think it would tend to widen the separation between the two ? — I think it might. 8714. {Sir S. Northcote.) There have been al- ways some oppidans in the Newcastle select ? — There have been one or two, and the oppidans have always taken a certain amount of pride ia getting oppidans in the select. 8715. {Mr. Ticisleton.) Are the oppidans superior in mathematics as a whole to the collegers, or on an equality ? — About on an equality. PUBLIC SCHOOLS COMMISSION : —MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 281. 8716. Are they not on an equality more than in proportion to their superior numbers ? — Yes. 8717. Is it simply that there are among the col- legers a certain number of equally good mathemati- cians, or is it the average among the oppidans ? — The average of good mathematicians is about equal in both classes, in proportion to their respective numbers. 8718. {Lord Clarendon.) With regard to the feeling between oppidans and collegers, it has been suggested by some persons that if the gown were given up in college tliat that would do away with the distinction to a great extent ; what do you think about the idea of giving up the gown ? — I do not think it would produce the effect. 8719. Would it be popular with the collegers themselves ? — I should say not. 8720. Do you not think that the impression of little boys when they go there is to look upon fellows going about in gowns as if they were a different class from the rest of the school, and that a prejudice is thus created ? — I think it would be the same without the gown so long as the idea of a colleger among the smaller oppidans remains as it is. 8721. Is it not the case that where the gown is the first thing that strikes a boy's eye, he takes a prejudice against the collegers, whereas, if they were dressed like the rest of the boys, he would not at first recognize them till he came to know the individual boys and be friendly with them ? — I think a small oppidan looks upon it as part of his duty to look down upon the collegers. 8722. You thiuk it would be the same if there was no gown ? — Yes. 8723. Do you think that the little collegers on their side cling to college, and are disposed to pro- voke the little oppidans? — Yes; I think there is rivalry on both sides. 8724. {Mr. Twisleton.) The little collegers are not the least cowed by this feeling of the others, I think ?— Not at all. 8723. (*■(> S. Northcote.) With regard to the boats, the collegers do not go in the boats, do they ? — No ; they have only one boat of their own, a four- oar. 8726. They never go in skiffs, or in any way with the oppidans, do they ? — Not very much ; but they do go on the river together to a certain extent. 8727. In the same boats with the oppidans, do you mean ? — They do not join the boats. 8728. But at times a colleger and an oppidan will go up in a skiff together, or in a four-oar ? — Yes. 8729. {Lord Lyttelton.) Above bridge ? — Yes. 8730. {Lord Clarendon.) They are mixed together in the cricket, but not in the boats ? — Yes, not in the boats. 8731. {Lord Lyttelto7i.) Do you think expense has anything to do with it. There is the ancient custom, but do you know whether there is any reason besides the ancient custom why the collegers should not be in the boats ? — I think it is the expense. 8732. Is it generally understood in the school that the collegers have commonly less pocket money to spend than the oppidans ? — Yes ; I think so. 8733. {Lord Devon.) Are you able to tell us ap- proximately of those who get into college what proportion have been oppidans previously, and what proportion come from other places of education ? — I should fancy the larger proportion had not been oppid.ans. 8734. Have you ever observed any material differ- ence in the way in which the two classes of boys get on during the subsequent period of their college life. Intellectually, I mean ? — No, I have not. 8735. Was the number of oppidans who became candidates for admission diminishing there positively as well as relatively ? — No ; but the whole number that came up to try was larger. 8736. {Lord Lyttelton.) What do you think about the lodging of the collegers at Eton. It has very much improved ; but do you think there is anything 1. which might be improved in it compared with the oppidans ? — There is a want of fire-places, I think. 8837. It is not so comfortable to have those rooms heated by hot air ? — No. 8738. Is that all, do you think ?— Yes, I think that is all. 8739. Do you think that one of those rooms on the whole is as good as one of the oppidans' rooms ? — Yes, I think so. 8740. Do you think anything could be improved in the food of the collegers ? — No ; I think that was improved a good deal while I was there. 8741. But is it not the case that they still have mutton five days a week ? — Yes. 8742. Is there never any complaint about that ? — No ; I think they grow accustomed to it and come to like it. 8743. Did you never hear among your acquaint- ance of any boys at all delicate whom it did not suit ? — I do not think so. 8744. {Mr. Twisleton.) Is it one day boiled mut- ton ? — No, always roast. 8745. {Lord Lyttelton.) Did you ever hear that the young ones were at a disadvantage, that they did not get enougli ? — No. 8746. {Lord Devon.) With regard to fireplaces, your preference for fireplaces to tlie hot air would go to the extent of wishing all the senior boys each to have his own fireplace ?■ — Yes. 8747. Otherwise probably there would be danger if there was a common fireplace, that the small boys would be thrust away, so that they would not benefit so much from the heat as they do now when it is so generally diffused ? — Yes. 8748. {Lord Clarendon.) The monitorial system exists in greater force, does it not, and prevails more in college than among oppidans ? — Yes, a good deal more. 8749. {Lord Lyttelton.) It is much more definite, is it not ? — Yes. 8750. {Lord Clarendon.) Will you have the good- ness to tell us what are the duties and the powers of the upper boys ? — They have to preserve order in col- lege, to prevent the fifth form from being late on any occasion. 8751. Being late in school? — No, in hall or chapel. 8752. {Lord Lyttelton.) Prevent the fifth form as well as the lower boys ? — Yes. 8753. {Lord Clarendon.) Upon how many boys does that duty devolve ? — Ten. 8754. The ten upper ?— Yes. 8755. By seniority ? — Yes. 8756. Are they called monitors ? — No ; sixth form. The Liberty are the six below the sixth form who are exempt from authority. They have no authority such as that of the sixth form. 8757. {Lord Lyttelton.) Those below the ten have no authority ? — No ; the next six are only exempt from the authority of the sixth form. 8758. {Sir S. Northcote.) There are only ten in the sixth form? — Yes, only ten. 8759. {Lord Clarendon.) Are there any other duties that they have to perform as to order and attendance ? — They have certain special duties to keep order among the little boys when they goto bed in chamber. That was one duty. 8760. {Lord Lyttelton.) Would they not have to suppress any ill-conduct ; for instance, if they saw any bullying ? — Yes, they would have to. 8761. {Lord Clarendon.) What punishment have they the power of inflicting ? — They may thrash a boy, in rare cases, for very serious offences, but they generally content themselves with setting what are called epigrams. 8262. {Lord Lyttelton.) What are those imposi- tions ? — Either some lines or epigrams ; iinee nre given to the lower boys. 8763. {Lord Clarendon.) Has the boy to make an ETON. A, C. Ainf/er, Esq. ICDec. 1802. epigram : -Yes. Nn 282 rUBLIC SCHOOLS commission: — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. ETON. A. C. Aingcr, Esij. 16 Dec. 1862. 8764. (Lord Lyttelton.) An epigram of four lines, is it not ? Yes ; there must be four or more. 8765. In Latin ?— No ; it may be, and generally is, in English. 8766. {Mr. Thompson.) May it have more than one point ? — It generally has no point at all. 8767. {Lord Li/ltelton.) That is quite unknown among the oppidans ? — Yes. 8768. Do you suppose it is done by the sixth form, perhaps half a dozen times in a hall'? — Yes, perhaps so. , . , 8769. {Mr. Thompson.) Those are the sixth you spoke of ? — Yes, the sixth form. 8770. {Lord Clarendon.) Is the epigram a favourite form of punishment? — Yes, it is the common form, 8771. {Mr. Thompson.) Does it ever contain sati- rical reflections on the imposer of the punishment ? _No. 8772. Is that not allowed, or is it merely that the victim is not able to turn again? — It would not be allowed. 8773. {Lord Clarendon.) Is the system as it is practised now, this exercise of authority on the part of the upper boys, popular ; does it give satisfaction ? Yes, I think so ; it is looked upon as quite a natural thing, and you come under it when first you come into college. 8774. And the public opinion of the college upholds this exercise of authority ? — Yes. 8775. And it is not, to your knowledge, abused ? — Not at all, I think. 8776. {Lord Lyttelton.) Did you ever hear any observations on the comparative laxity among the oppidans in that respect? — I have thought, myself, that a greater use of the powers of the sixth form would be desirable among the oppidans. 8777. You think it works well among the collegers ? —Yes. 8778. The college sixth form nominally have the same authority over oppidans that they have over the collegers ? — Yes. 8779. But, practically, they have not ? — Practi- cally, they do not exercise it. It has been known that they have exercised it over the oppidans in some way. 8780. That would not give satisfaction ? — It would only be in a rare case. 8781. {Lord Devon.) Do you recollect, or have you ever heard of any instance of undue corporal punishment in the shape of thrashing by one of the sixth form in college ? — No. 8782. {Lord Clarendon.) Is there any appeal from the sixth form to a master ? — Yes, to the Head Master. 8783. Has that happened in your recollection ? — Once or twice. 8784. That a boy thought himself unjustly punished ? — He is offered his choice, to submit to his punishment, or to appeal to the Head Master. 8785. With what result did he appeal in the cases you know of ? — The Head Master has supported the gixth form. 8786. During the time that you were in college was there much drinking ? — Not much ; there were one or two instances of drinking. 8787. But nothing you could consider habitual drinking ? — No, not amongst the larger number. 8788. Would the public opinion of the college be against drinking ? — I think it would have been. 8789. Against vice, immorality, or gambling ? Yes. 8790. Would it have been the duty of the sixth form to interfere to put a stop to anything of that kind ? — Yes. 8791. It would be a duty they would perform? — Yes ; they would put a stop to anything of the kind. 8792. Was there any bullying ? — There was nothing deserving of the luime of bullying. 8793. {Lord Lyttelton.) Neither among the col- legers nor among the oppidans ?— No ; I did see a good deal of teasing, perhaps, but not quite what is usually understood by "bullying." 8794. {Lord Clarendon) Anything that could fairly come under the head of bullying and ill-usage of one boy by another would be noticed by the sixth form ? — Yes. 8795. And ])ut a stop to ? — Yes. 8796. {Lord Lyttelton) The bullying was more among the little boys, among themselves, than the bigger ones ? — Yes ; there was hardly any bullying among the bigger boys. 8797. Do you think the little collegers looked to the bigger ones as protectors at all ? — Yes ; they were much mure united throughout the college. 8798. {Sir S. Northcote.) Was the locking up there different at different times of the year, or always at the same time ? — It varied for the whole school. 8799. {Lord Clarendon.) With respect to the tuto- rial system, I should like to ask whether the col- legers had more work, more private business, than the oppidans ? — I think they had rather more among those who had got to the upper parts of the school. 8800. Like the rest, it is a part of their greater studiousness above the oppidans? — Yes; they did pieces of composition for the tutor. 8801 . Do you think the tutor would take more pains with a colleger who was advanced as well as studious than he would with the oppidans in general ? — Yes ; but the same would apply to an oppidan. The tutor would not show any particul.ar favour to a colleger. 8802. {Sir S. Northcote.) The collegers were not private pupils, were they ; yet they never found any difference made between themselves and the private pupils ? — No. 8803. {Lord Lyttelton.) They paid nothing as pri- vate pupils ? — They paid nothing for private business. 8804. Only the lOZ.?— That is all. 8805. {Sir S. Northeote.) They were not conscious of any difference ? — No. 8806. {Lord Lyttelton.) Do you think the greater studiousness of the collegers applies as much to mo- dern history and geography, as far as it comes into the work ; do you think they paid more attention to those than did the oppidans ? — No , I should not think they did. 8807. {Lord Clarendon.) And not more attention to modern languages, perhaps ? — No, not so much. 8808. {Lord Lyttelton.) Do you remember the case of a colleger going to the French master ? — There were some who went. 8809. And in mathematics about the same as the oppidans ? — About the same. 8810. There was not more proficiency amongst the collegers than among the oppidans in mathematics, was there ? — I do not think there was. 8811. The examination for King's now includes mathematics, does it not ? — Yes. 8812. Do you remember whether the collegers got the Tomline prize oftener than the oppidans ? — I should fancy about an equal number of times. 8813. {Lord Clarendon.) How far do they go in mathematics in the examination for King's ; to conic sections ? — No, not as far as " conic sections." 8814. {Lord Lyttelton.) How many books of Euclid ? — The first four books. 8815. {Lord Devon.) How many hours on an ordi- nary school day were the collegers at work, taking into consideration the preparation for school business, and any private work they might do ? — About seven hours, I should fancy. 8816. {Lord Lyttelton.) When you were reading for the Newcastle, how many hours did you read ? — You would not get more private reading than three hours in a day exclusive of school work. 8817. You had a high place for the Newcastle scholarship ? — I was in the select. 8818. How high ? — About third or fourth. 8819. {Lord Devon.) Would school work then occupy about four hours ; full school work ? — Well, perhaps rather more than four hours. PUBLIC SCHOOLS COSDirSSION : — MINUTES OF EVIBENCE. 283 8820. Does it occur to you, from your experience, looking back upon your school life, that any hotter arran^enieut could be made as to the employment of those hours, or that any practicable Increase in the number of the hours could safely take place ? — No ; I do not think so. 8821. Neither an increase in the number, nor any alteration in the arrangement ? — No ; I think the arrangement was very good. 8822. Suppose it was a question of the advantage of introducing any other branch of instruction, do j-ou think a plan could be found without unduly in- creasing the hours of work, or neglecting any import- ant branch of the system at present taught ? — I think the hours of work would have to be increased. 8823. You do not think the present hours, by any new arrangement, would admit of letting in any new branches ? — Not without detriment to the old ones. 8824. (Sir S. Northcote.) Do you think the col- legers were overworked in your time ? — I fancy they were, to a certain extent. 8825. Do you think their play time was unduly restricted by the amount of work they had to do ? — A little, perhaps. 8826. (Lord Lyttelto7i.) There was a greater stimulus to work, I presume, which would induce them to work themselves ? — Yes. 8827. (Lord Clarendon.) Do you think there is too much original composition' at Eton ? — No, I do not. 8828. Do you think there is enough translation from English into Latin ? — Not written translation enough. 8829. {Lord Lyttelton.) Relatively, do you not think the composition was rather too much compared with the translation ? — Yes. 8830. From Latin and Greek into English, do you not think the translation might be advantageously increased ? — Yes. 8831. (Lord Clarendon.) Do you think there is enough repetition, or too much ? — I think it might be rather diminished. 8832. (3Ir. Thompso7i.) How many lines a week are j'ou expected in the upper part of the school to recite ? — There was a lesson every morning, except Mondays. 8833. How much ? — It varied according to the autlior. It was about 80 lines of Homer in one day, and about 60 lines of another author on another day. 8834. Would it not require a very practised memory to commit 80 lines to heart? — It used to become very easy ; of course that was in the highest p.arts of the school. 8835. (Lord Devon.) Have you experienced any benefit from that in subsequent life in enabling you to retain in the mind poetry or English prose, or any- thing you might wish to retain ? — Yes ; I think there is some benefit. 8836. You think it has tended to strengthen your power of memory ? — Yes. 8837. (Mr. Thompson.) Was Homer the only author you got off by heart ? — Horace and Virgil. 8838. The only Greek author ? — Greek play. 8839. Never English poetry ? — No, except for the " speeches." 8840. (Mr. Vaughan.) Do you think that the pro- motions at Eton for the remove were sufficiently de- termined by examinations ? — Yes. 8841. Do you think, for instance, that the exami- nation for perhaps three or four removes during the course of a boy's career were sufficient as a stimulus to make him work ? — No, not after a certain point in his career ; not for the oppidans. 8842. (Lord Clarendon.) Do you think if there had been less of original composition and more of translation it would have been any advantage to you at college now ? — I think it would. 8843. Upon the whole, what should you say was the standard of collegers at Cambridge with reference either to oppidans or to young men coming up from other schools ; have they a high standing in scho- larship ? — Yes ; I think they have. IGDoc. 1862. 8844. The collegers of Eton ?— Yes. ' ETOX 8845. (Lord Lyttelton.) Has it ever occurred to you that the boys' construing to the tutors before ^- ^- ^''"l"'!'.- going into school was more than was requisite ? — No, *?' I do not think so. 8846. Do you think it was an advantage to the boys ? — Yes. 8847. And not more than they fairly wanted to do the lesson well ? — No, I thought it was very useful. 8848. (Sir S. Northcote.) What were the relations of the colleger to the master in college ? — He acted the part of the dame with more authority than the dames had. 8849. Did you look upon him as the person to whom you would go in the case of any private difficulties I mean difficulties connected with the school, of course, but not merely questions that you would go to your tutor upon ? — Yes. 8850. Questions of discipline and so forth ; you would go to him in cases of bullying ; you would go to him rather than to the Head Master ? — Probably before going to the Head Master. 8851. (Lord Devon.) Since you have been at Cam- bridge, of course you have been aware, as everybody is, that there is rather a growing feeling that it would be desirable to introduce more modern instruction into the public school system. I do not know if you concur in that. If you do, has any mode suggested itself to you by which it would be practicable to do so at Eton ? — No ; I have not thought over the question. 8852. You do not see your way to any greater and more extended systematic instruction in modern languages ? — No, I do not see my way to it. 8853. You have formed acquaintance with boys from other schools at Cambridge ; has it been brought under your notice that more is done at some schools than at Eton ? — No, I have not noticed that. 8854. (Lord Lyttelton.) Do you think the collegers give loss time to cricket and foot ball than tho oppidans do ? — Rather less in some school times, par- ticularly in the summer time. 8855. Less to cricket than the oppidans ? — Rather less ; not less than they can help. 8856. (Mr. Thompson.) How many hours a day would you think they give in summer time ? — Six oi seven hours in the summer time. 8857. To cricket ?— Yes. 8858. (Lord Lyttelton.) Six or seven hours in tho day or in the week ? — In the day. 8859. (Mr. Thompson.) Do you mean one day with another? — No; but on half holidays,three times a week. 8860. (Sir S. Northcote.) And how many hours in the week should you say ? — Twenty-five, about. 8861. (Lord Lyttelton.) Is there any inferiority at football between the collegers and oppidans ? — There is not now ; not in individual cases. 8862. Do the collegers generally beat the oppi- dans ? — They have not lately. 8863. Why do you think that they give less time than the oppidans ? — Because they have the examina- tions coming on. 8864. (Mr. Twisleton.) But the proportion of boys is different. Thatof itself would explain the difference, would it not ? — Yes. 8865. (Mr. Thompson.) As to the collegers, those who do not enter so much into athletic exereises as the oppidans, has it ever been observed that they are less healthy in consequence ? — No ; I think certainly not. 8866. As a body they are as healthy as the oppidans ? — Quite so. 8867. There is such a thing as excess in such exercises ? — Yes. 8868. Especially in boating ? — ^Boating and bathing. 8869. (Lord Clarendon.) Have you any opinion as to the system of shirking ; do you not think that had better be done away with ? — I think in a great measure it ought to be done away with. 8870. (Mr. Twisleton.) Why not altogether done away with ?-^The presence of a master should be recognized out of bounds in some way or other. Nn 2 28i PUBLIC SCHOOLS COiRIISSION:— MINUTES OF EVIDENCE, ETON. A. C. Ainger, £sq. 16Dee. 18G2. 8871. {Lord Lyttellon.) You mean there are places where boys ought not to be allowed to go ? — Yes. 8872. {Mr. Twislefo/i.) You would not have shirk- iii<' as ail organized system. Should a boy not be piuiished if seen in an improper place by his master ? Yes, he ought to be. 8873. So that a system of conniving at the boys doing what is forbidden by law should be discontinued ? — Yes ; I think so. 8874. {Sir S. Northcote.) Do you think it would he an improvement, if instead of saying, " There are bounds," and winking at boys going beyond them, if you say. Boys may go anywhere they please except to certain forbidden places, and when they are found there shirking shall not save them ? — Yes. 8875. {Lord Clarendon.) Do you look back with satisfaction to the period you passed at Eton, and do you think that your time was profitably spent there ; I mean in an educational point of view ? — Yes ; I think so. 8876. It does not occur to you that your time might have been more profitably spent, so that you would like to see for the advantage of the school any change introduced ? — Excepting modern languages, I do not think there is anything. 8877. {Lord Lyttelton.) You do not consider that a boy who is considered what is called a sap, is looked down upon by the rest ? — No. Victoria Street, Friday, 19th December 1862. PRESENT : Earl of Clarendon. Earl op Devon. Lord Lyttelton. Sir S. Northcote. Hon. Edward Twisleton. Eev. W. H. Thompson. H. Halford Vaughan, Esq. Rev. H. Okes. 19 Dec. 1862. The earl OF CLARENDOJT in the Chair. The Rev. Richard Okes, D.D., Provost of King's College, Cambridge, called in and examined. 8878. {Lord Clarendon.) May I ask how long you have been Provost of King's ? — Twelve years. 8879. You went from Eton there ? — Direct from Eton. I was lower master of Eton at the time I was elected in November 1850, and I came within a certain number of days after my election. 8880. Will you have the goodness to tell us in what state of preparation with respect to scholarship the young men come up from Eton to King's College. I ask the question particularly with reference to auy changes that may have been effected at Eton within your knowledge and recollection ? — All those that have come up since I have been Provost have oeen of a high order, more so (particularly within the last few years) than before, for the alteration in the practice has become more systematical, and has given us some of the better scholars from among the collegers. The collegers are those from whom we elect. There had been a determination on the part of the electors to both foundations to have a greater regard to superiority of acquirements than used to be the case ; the consequence is, that on the foundation of Eton there is the elite of the school I may almost say. With the prospect of a close examination before tlipy are elected to King's the boys have been more industrious as a consequence, who, having been in the first instance elected according to their respective talents and their proficiency, (having themselves worked very well, and having been worked very well by others,) give us an opportunity of electing some very good scholars to the foundation of King's. 8881. You are alluding to the electors of the two foundations. Perhaps you will h.ave the goodness to tell us in what manner the elections to King's are conducted ? — We meet according to arrangement under the old statutes, generally towards the end of July. 8882. You meet under the statutes of King's ? — Under the statutes of both foundations. The statute for the election to King's was incorporated into the Eton statutes. They differ only in the number. I believe it is statute 3 or 4. "The three electors on the part of Eton are the Provost, the Vice-Provost, end the Head Master of the school ; the three electors an the part of King's are the Provost, and two masters of arts, fellows of the college, annually elected to the office. 8883. {Lord Clarendon.) The two other electors of King's besides the Provost are masters of arts of King's, I presume ? — Yes. 8HS4. And by whom are they elected ? — By the college of King's. The two masters of arts, fellows of King's, are annually elected by the Educational Council and Governing Body of King's. 8885. These six electors meet together to elect to King's ? — To both foundations. 8886. {I^ord T^yttelton.) At the same time ? — Yes. 8887. {Lord Clarendon.) And the examinations are real examinations in point of fact ? — Yes. 8888. The examination is much more real and severe than it was some years ago, is it not ? — Yes ; I think the modern generation would hardly believe what happened when I went into college. 8889. Perhaps you will have the goodness to tell us what happened? — When I tried for college, as the ex- pression is, (I had been an oppidan nine months before) I was ordered to go to one of the assistant masters, who, in modern phraseology, " coached " the boys before they went to the examination. Passages were selected from those books which we were in the habit of doing, a few verses from Farnaby, a fable of jEsop, a piece of Caesar or Ovid, if the boys were in the fourth form, but they were all prepared beforehand with the passages. The electors had copies of the books put before them, and the junior poser, who had tlie arrangement and labour of the election, just opened the book and turned down the leaf at the passage ; copies were then handed to each of the electors, and A was called on to construe a line, and B another, and so on. Certain questions were then asked in the shape of parsing, and that was the amount of the examination of those boys who went in to college. Certainly that was the amount of examina- tion of those who went from the fourth form. 8890. {Sir S. Northcote.) Was the number of candidates the same as the number of vacancies ? — Not necessarily. 8891. Were there more candidates than there were vacancies ? — Not in those days. 8892. {Lord Lyttelton.) Fewer candidates than vacancies ? — Very often in my recollection, when I was lower master. There were, I think, on one occa- sion as few as six candidates when there were very nearly 40 vacancies, if I remember rightly. It was something of that kind. 8893. But all the candidates were nominated ?— They were in the early time, no doubt. 8894. Having been nominated, they were sure to be elected if they satisfied the ex.aminers, and there was no competition ? — Quite so. There was no instance of a boy being rejected, till just after I returned to Eton, and then I heard of a case in which it was found utterly impossible to get a boy to decline PUBLIC SCHOOLS COMMISSION :— MINUTES OF EVIDENCE 285 " bonus," nnd on that occasion all the electors were of opinion that he really was not eligible. 8895. {Lord Clarendon.) Up to what time did this state of things exist ? — I can Iiardly say. There was but little variation as to the boys who went on to the Eton foundation. There was not always the same " animus " among the electors. Now aud then there was one from King's, who was very desirous to inaugurate a change, but one can hardly hold ground against five. 8896. From what time do you date the reform which took place ? — The reform with respect to the elections to King's may be said to have commenced from 1820. The practice before that time was to have a portion of a book, say Demosthenes or Livy, selected upon which the examinations should take place. The candidates would be examined, say, in a portion of the orations of Demosthenes and a portion of Livy. The books selected were known beforehand. The composition was set and the subjects known before- hand. What would be certainly done was this : — Each exercise would be looked over by an assistant master of the school and put in a shape worthy of appearing before the electors. It was the business of an assis- tant of the upper scliool to attend to that work. I returned in the year 1820, and at the election of 1821 I went into the election chamber with the prospect of having to look over some 13 sets of exercises, and make them worthy of appearance, but I was informed by the then Head Master that the electors had met and had determined that the exercises in future should not be looked over before they were presented to them, and from that time there was a difference in the exa- minations. 8897. And from that time I suppose there sprung that gradual improvement which you say has now brought the examination to be a real and impor- tant test of ability .and acquirement ? — It was the getting in of the thin end of the wedge, but I do not think that until the time that Dr. Hodgson became Provost any real change took place. I should rather date it from the time Dr. Hodgson became Provost and Dr. Hawtrey Head Master. 8898. Dr. Hawtrey introduced great alterations, did he not ? — Yes, very great. 8899. Perhaps you will allow me to go on with the election. These six examiners meet now and examine the papers of the candidates ? — Yes, it is all paperwork now. 8900. Was there not, what is called in America, a little " difficulty," in 1862 ?— Yes, there was. 8901. Perhaps it would be desirable if you would have the goodness just to say in a few words how it arose ? — It was more a constitutional difficulty than anything else. 8902. Wo are aware of that ? — The two bodies of electors, those from Eton and those from King's, seemed to me to go into the examination for the four scholarships that were offered from King's with different views. 8903. You say the four scholarships that were " offered " from King's : what is the meaning of " offered ?" — We had no vacancies in the 70 members of the college. They were really offered. Under the terms of the new statute, we are not bound to declare more than three scholarships vacant in each year, until the new statutes shall come fully into operation. They are Eton scholarships, not Open scholarships ; we cannot found the Open scholarships until the appropriated Eton scholarships are filled up. We are to have eventually 24 Eton scholarships. The smallest number of fellows that we are to have is 46. The interest of those on the foundation at present is reserved. We cannot at once get into a new state of tilings. We must wait until the transition state is over, and in the meantime King's has to offer to Eton not fewer than three scholarships for competition every year, being Eton scholarships with certain privileges. 8904. {Sir S. Northcote.) It is in the breast of the Provost and Fellows of King's, whether they should offer five or four ? — Quite so. 8905. It being only compulsory on them to offer three ? — Just so. 8906. {Lord Clarendon.') Perhaps you will go on with your explanation of what occurred in the year 1862 ? — There were four scholarships offered — Eton scholarships ; they are termed so in the new statutes, and they were to all intents and purposes to bo regarded as vacant scholarships. The new statute only states that the election is to con- tinue to be held at Eton. It does not state any par- ticular manner or way, in which the election shall be conducted, or on what principle it shall be conducted, distinctly ; that is only to be inferred from other parts of the statute ; but looking to the other parts of the statute, and looking at what must be intended as scholarship, the examiners from King's during the last two years (this year and 1861) went with a supposition that they were to elect the best schol.ar they could get for the purpose ; and having examined the candidates, chiefly in classics, with a certain quantity of mathematics, (but not enough to test whether they possessed any great power in mathematics,) and a certain amount of divinity, they proceeded to the election. We elected the first without any difficulty. We were all unanimous in the election of the first. But in the election of the second, the three King's electors chose a youth who was 17 years of age, aud the three Eton electors one who was 18. Tiicre were 16 candidates presented to us, eight of whom were 18 years of age, and eight 17, and the electors of King's preferred one who was 17 years of age. 8907. For superior scholarship ? — Yes. Butwecould not come to any arrangement with the Eton electors. They were all three in favour of the boy of the age of 18. We had at first determined on electing the scholars one by one ; that was the first arrangement, to t.ike the scrutiny for the first scholar, and, having settled that, to take the scrutiny for the second. 8908. {Sir S. Northcote.) Did they prefer the boy of 18 as being in their opinion a better scholar, or did they take him on account of his age ? — We did not conieou that occasion to any understanding, as we did afterwards, of what their views were. We ourselves entertained a high opinion of their candidate, th.at is to say, of the youth whom they selected, but we were not prepared to consider him quite the next in order. We thought the one we selected was better than the one whom they chose, but, after a great deal of con- versation, it seemed that we were pretty well agreed that each of the persons selected was deserving of one of the scholarships which we had to give, and we came to an arrangement, which arose out of a scrutiny, that we should write on a piece of paper the names of the three candidates whom we should consider most fit for the next three scholarships, we having already elected one. AVhen we looked at the scrutiny, we found that two out of the three preferred by the Eton electors were also preferred by the King's electors, but our list of three was not alike. We of King's preferred two boys of the age of 17 and one of 18 ; they on the contrary preferred two boys of 18, and one of 17. It seemed, however, that we of King's agreed with the Eton electors that certainly one more boy of the age of 18 and one of 17 were fit for scholarships, but there was a difference in the order. We had at first agreed that the candidates of our choice should be put down in the order in which we thought they should appear ; and, as we were all agreed that there were two who were fit for scholar- ships, although there was found to be a difference between us with respect to the order in which they were to be placed, yet, as one was a year older than the other, we did not at all hesitate to alter that order, and give the one who was 18 a priority of position over the one who was 17. So, to settle the matter, the two upon whom we were all agi-eed were elected in addition to the first one who had been Nn3 ETON. Hev. It. Ohes. 19 Dec. 1862. 28G PUBLIC SCHOOLS COMMISSION -.—MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. r.TON. Jtev. n. Ohes. 19 Dec. 1862. elecicil unanimously. We had thus got so An- that we had elected three scholars. But we could not agree upon the fourth. We tried for a long time, and it seemed from the conversation that took jilace, as well as from what we knew of this fourth can- didate, that there was a vKsry great difference of opinion on the ground of qualification and eligibility. It was clear to us that the Eiou electors thought age had some priority of claim, and that they thought also that the person whom they had selected was quite fit to go to King's— not the best in point of scholarship, but that he was quite fit to go. They held that opinion, but we, on the contrary, thought that we were sent there to get the best man that wo could, and therefore we were obliged to hold out, particularly as we were not of opinion that the person whom they had selected was better than three others of the same age with himself whom neither they nor we had named. Nor were we quite persuaded that any one of those four, the one whom they had selected, and the three others whom we thought equal to him, were any one of them fit to be elected by us according to our views of what a scholar of King's should be. 8909. Will you give me leave to ask whether the King's College electors had in view .another candidate whom they thought superior ?— We had already selected, or rather had marked out four, two of the age of 17, and two of the age of 18. But I may take this opportunity of saying that the subject is one upon which a correspondence has taken place between the Provost of Eton and myself, both being in communi- cation with the other electors of our colleges re- spectively. I laid the matter before my own college at their last meeting. As we have not got any farther with the electors of Eton than at first, I have been requested to communicate with the Visitor and consult him as to the grounds upon which he gave the Eton authorities permission under the new statute to bring in youths at the age of 19, which Henry the 6th never intended should be the case. The electors of Eton had appealed to the Visitor, and did so on the ground that in the new statutes of King's, there is an opportunity of electing to the Open scholarships persons who are under the age of 20, and they thought that, as there was no specific age mentioned in the new statutes for the election of Eton scholars, there- fore the Eton scholars of that age shoidd be allowed to compete for Eton scholarships at King's as well as others for the Open scholarships. 8910. How is any modification of the difficulty to be effected, if all the King's College electors think that they are bound to elect the best scholar ? Age must enter into consideration ? — If the Visitor looked on the new statute as the one which is alone to govern the election to an Eton scholarship, he must have seen that the words "merit" and "sufficient merit" are introduced into this statute. Whether he looks on " merit " and " sufficient merit " as meaning " scholastic merit " only ; and considers that all those who are produced before us must necessarily be thought worthy of election, in regard to " morals," but that "morals" ought not to come before us as bearing any relative value, I do not know. 8911. {Lord Lyttelton.) Is the question formally before the Visitor now ? — More as amicus curia than anything else. 8912. Not as a judge ? — I have laid the whole question before him, and he tells me that after the ordinations are over he will write to the Provost of Eton. 9913. {Sir S. Northcoie.) Will he not give an authoritative decision ? — This does not seem to be a Case of appeal. 8914. Is it not provided for by the statutes ? — That js one of the things I asked him, namely, what his construction of that part of the statute was, supposing he looked on it as the one which is to govern the Eton elections. I may mention that in 1857 when the Provost and Fellows of Eton were meeting for the purpose of determining whether they should send in any proposal to the University Commissioners, there was a resolution passed by them as a proposed ordi- nance, that in the event of an equality of votes at the Eton elections the Provost of King's should have the casting vote in the election to King's, and the Provost of Eton should nave the casting vote in the election to Eton. If that had been established (and we at King's had agreed to it), and a Ijyclaw to that effect framed, probably the case would not liave occurred which has occurred this year. 891.5. Is that what you recommend should be done now ? — I think if it could be, it would be very desirable. It would settle this question at once. 8916. {Lord Li/tlelton.) Is there any great differ- ence of opinion as to the principle of election between the two bodies ? — No, I do not thiuk there is any great diflerence. 8917. There is nothing by which either party is bound ? — I thought I gathered from the Provost of Eton's letters that the electors of Eton looked to the old statutes as being the statutes which should determine the election. 8918. But a difficulty has occurred this year in the last election, the effect of which is that the electors are equally divided. A similar division might occur from that or some other cause next year. What you would propose as a permanent remedy for such a state of things is that there should be a mode of deciding such cases by a casting vote ? — Yes. 8919. {3Ir. Tiiisleton.) That is the course which you think should be pursued in case of an equality of votes ? — Yes. 8920. {Sir S. Norlhcote.) Is there not a more im- portant question behind, namely, that the Eton electors should understand on what principles they should proceed in selecting candidates for King's ? — Quite so. 8921. They consider themselves to be acting still under the old statute, which in a certain sense would give a preference to boys of a more advanced age ? — I thiuk that is the case ; and they also thiuk that we should take into account the relative conduct of the boys as well as their knowledge and attainments. 8922. But-they do not in point of fact proceed cor- rectly by going according to the old statutes, because the Visitor has exercised a dispensing power in reference to the new statutes ? — Quite so. 8923. Is it the opinion of the authorities of King's College that the Visitor having exercised a dispensing power with reference to the new statutes, that introduces the principle of the new statutes, and makes them or ought to make them the rule for the election of the scholars in future ? — I think so. 8924. And if that principle is adopted, scholastic merit will be the test by which the boys should be elected ? — Yes ; I hardly know what "merit" means there, if it be not that. With respect to the Open scholarships, where scholastic merit will be the test, we shall have persons trying from all parts of England, with whose relative moral value we shall not by possibility be acquainted. 8923. {Mr. Vaughan.) Does it not appear from the statutes that it is " merit " in reference to the examination ? — I think that is to be justly inferred. The expression is " if there shall be no candidate, " whom the examiners shall consider of sufficient " merit," and so on. 8926. {Mr. Thompson.) Is that in your statutes ? — Yes. 8927. In the new statutes of King's ? — Yes. 8928. Which are binding joro tanio? — Yes. 8929. And on which the Visitor has exercised this dispensing power ? — Yes. 8930. To what extent do you allow the Visitor in interpreting your statutes to overrule your own inter- pretation of them in their plain grammatical sense ? — We have a power under the new statutes of interpret- ing the statutes for ourselves by a majority of the college, at a general congregation ; but it is in the PUBLIC SCHOOLS COMMISSION : — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 2S7 power of the Provost, or of any three Fellows if not satisfied with that interpretation to appeal to the Visitor. 8931. A special power of interpretation is reserved to the Visitor by the statute ? — Yes ; but he is saved some trouble by the College first interpreting its own statutes. 8932. It is not in virtue of the common law powers of the Visitor that the appeal is given to him ; but in pursuance of a clause in your own statutes ? — I sup- pose that anybody aggrieved would be at liberty, taking a common law view of the case, to appeal to the Visitor. 8933. But would his private opinion, conveyed in a letter, have any power on the college ? — The power given to the college is only one of interpreting the statutes, but the decision of the Visitor is binding upon the college. 8934. {Mr. Vaughan.) Would not the rejected candi- date, as a person aggrieved, have a power of appeal to the Visitor under these circumstances ? — I suppose so, or that the parent or guardian of the boy aggrieved would have such a power. There is another difficulty belonging to the present case, which I have represented to the Visitor, that one or other of the two boys in question has suffered injury by being suspended from election to the scholarship ; but we have not heard that any one has taken any steps in the matter. 8935. I was asking for the purpose of ascertaining whether the visitorial power might not be called in on the present occasion by the candidate as well as by the college ? — I am not at all sure that there was not an idea that it would be ; but I have not heard officially. 8936. {Mr. Thompson.) But the Visitor would act according to a certain legal form in proceeding to enforce a private right ? — I hardly know what would be done, even if he were appealed to by the parents of the two boys. I hardly know what more could be done then than is being done now ; — to get the Visitor to state on what grounds he has allowed what he has allowed, and, if it were done, as we understand him to say, on these new statutes, to ask him whether in these new statutes the expression, " merit," there ought not to be binding upon all the six electors ; and whether the word " merit '' does not mean scholastic merit and nothing else. 8937. Is it your opinion that the University Com- missioners would have done well to have defined the term " merit ?"— Yes. 8938. {Mr. Twisleton.) The misfortune is that the ■word "merit" was introduced into the Act of Parlia- ment which constituted the Commission. That was the case at Oxford, and I should not wonder if it was at Cambridge. {Mr. Vaughan.) Possibly a vague word was used for the purpose of putting off the difficulty for the moment. 8939. (Lord Clarendon.) What is the definition of merit — "scholastic?" — No; it does not say scholastic. 8940. (Sir S. Northcote.) I would just ask one question upon the statute. Under the old statutes of Eton College, the scholars were to be diligently examined in " grammatica , conditionibus, moribus, " et qualitatibus superius recitafis." That shows that according to the old statutes " mores " were to bo considered in the election, does it not ? — Are those for the election on to the foundation of Eton or King's? 8941. On to the foundation of King's College ?— Yes. • 8942. And then it goes on " qua examinatione sic " facta et abilitate sufficientiaque ipsorum scholarium " in prtemissis omnibus et singulis per comraunem " consensum dictorum examinatorum approbatis," and so on, that is also in the old statutes ? — Yes. 8943. Is it not the case that the Visitor has .allowed boys from Eton College to become candidates for King's in their 19th year, whereas, according to the Eton statutes, they would by that time have been superannuated ? — Yes. 8944. And is it not the case that the reason he has given for this permission is, that young men of the age of 19 are allowed to offer themselves for open scholarships atKing's under the new statutes of King's? — He does not state that as his reason in answer to the Eton electors ; but they have used that as an argument to him, and he seems to me to have admitted the argument, and to have given permission accordingly. 8945. They made that at all events the ground of the application which they addressed to the Visitor ? — They did. 8946. That being so, they apparently recognized the new statutes of King's as to some extent qualifying the old statutes of Eton in regard to elections. Now, the new statute actually recognizes " merit " as the sole ground for those, otherwise qualified, who are to be elected to the Open scholarships ?— Yes. 8947. If that is so, does it not seem to follow, if the old statutes of Eton are to be so construed by reference to the new statutes of King's, that merit, which is the sole test for Open scholarships at King's should be the sole test for Eton scholars at King's likewise ? — I have thought so ever since the new statutes have been framed. 8948. {Lord Devon.) I do not know whether I correctly understood that you objected to the ex- tension of age to 19 in one case. You prob.ably do not think that that statute which applies to the Open scholarships necessarily applies also to the Eton scholarships ? — I think it does not. 8949. You demur to the present state of things, both on that ground and upon the construction which has been placed upon the word merit ? — We have not expressed any opinion upon the decision. 8950. You raise a doubt now ? — I do. I do not doubt the Visitor's power, but I speak of it as my own inference that, if the Visitor has done this upon the new statutes, the new statutes should be regarded and inferences drawn from the new statutes for the election at Eton. I take the words that ai-e used in reference to the election for the open scholar- ships to mean merit alone, without any qualification. I think the word stands alone, and that it means scholastic merit ; I therefore interpret the words "sufficient merit," with reference to the election for Eton scholars to King's, to mean scholastic merit only, because it follows the expression "examiners." The words .are, " whom the examiners shall not con- " sider to be of sufficient merit." The examiners go through a particular examination in reference to scholarship altogether ; their powers are not given, I imagine, in reference to the moral conduct or character of the boys who are ex.amiued. 8951. {Sir S. NortJicote.) In point of fact, setting aside the construction of the statutes, is it not a question of importance to the college itself to decide whether boys of 17 should be allowed to compete freely with boys of 18. Does not the whole system of the college proceed on the assumption that the boy who is superior to others in the scholastic exaraina- tion should have the preference in the election to King's College, Cambridge ? — One would suppose so, but there might not always be found a sufficient number of hoys at the age of 18 on the foundation to be elected, or a sufiicient number to answer the views of the electors. 8952. Under the old system of college elections, was it not the case that the boy once at the head — both in the lower part of the school and the upper — once at the head in his year, went off by seniority as almost a matter of course ? — Entirely. The boy's place was not altered from the moment he entered Eton if he were intended for college, as it was called. When I went myself to Eton I was between 10 and 11 years old. I found that there were already four boys admitted who were intended for college, and I was not permitted to have any power of going above them. Nn 4 ETON. liev. li. Oftes. 19 Dec. 18G2. 288 PUBLIC SCHOOLS COMMISSION :—MI>JUTE3 OF EVIDENCE. ETON. Ucv. R. Okes. 19 Dec. 1862. I must remain fifth for many years, I did, in fact, all the time I was tliere. 8953. However superior you might be ? — les. Inm only ilhistrating the practice by my own case, not arrogating any superiority. 8904. {Mr. Vaughan.) Wouhl it bo advisable on your view, increase the merit of the individual candi- date, if, besides being superior when he went up for examination, he was also a year younger ? — I should think so. 8905. {Mr. Thompson.) In reference to his pro- bable availability ?— You must not carry it too far, and say that a boy of 13 or 16, which was the old time at which they might compete, was preferable. 8956. {Mr. Vaughan.) Would it be advisable on reference to either ground, future availability, or present merit, but especially in reference to merit, to suspend a boy of 17 because the boy whom he had beaten was 18 ?— It would depend very much upon the extent of merit that belonged to the boy. 8957. {Sir ,S'. iW<^coyo- tect a small boy from his bullying. Supposing a big boy were licking and bullying you, and one of the seniors came up to the big boy and were to say, " You " are not to do that, go away, you have no business to " do that," and supposing the boy who was thrashing you were a good deal bigger than the boy trying to preserve you, what would be the result ; would the big boy go away ? — Yes, I think he would be obliged to, because if he ventured to dispute the upper fellow then all the sixth form would be down upon him. 9355. (Sir S. Northcote.) Is there any fighting at all ?— Very little. 9356. Have you ever known any regular stand-up fight ? — No, I have not. 9357. (Mr. Thompson.) Is there any single stick. Perhaps you have not seen it ? — No. 9358. ( Sir S. Northcote.) Would a sixth form stop fellows fighting ? — Yes. PUBUC SCHOOLS COJDIISSION: — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE, 297 Victoria Street.— Tuesday, 17th March 1863. PKESENT : Earl of Devon. Lord Ltttelton. Sir Stafford Northcote, Bart. Hon. Edward Twisleton. Eev. W. II. Thompson. H. Halford Vauohan, Esq. The earl OF DEVON in the Chair. John Walter, Esq., M.P., called in and examined. 9359. (Lord Devo7t.) We understand, Mr. Walter, that we can have the benefit of hearing some obser- vations from you with regard to Eton ? — Having been at Eton eight years myself, and having three sons there, of course I take a great interest in the sr;hool, and fancy I know something about it. I thouglit that as the Commissioners liad examined a great number of witnesses on the subject, they might wish to put questions to me on any points on which they might tliink my experience or knowledge of the sub- ject might be of use to tliem. 9360. If there are any points on which you wish to speak, or suggestions which you wish to offer, that would suggest questions to us .as it went on ? — I suppose the general notion is that this Commission has been instituted in consequence of an idea that the educa- tion at Eton did not sufficiently train boys for the duties which they might be called upon to fulfil in life at an early period, without passing through the uni- versity. 9361. (Lord Lyttclton.) You should not assume any foregone conclusion of the kind on the part of the Commission ? — I supposed that was the case, but I have no means of knowing. 9362. (Lord Devon.) That, in your opinion, is the general idea in the public mind ? — Yes. I mean that one's attention has been called to the fact by published letters, tliat the education at Eton re- quired considerable alteration to adapt it to what are called the requirements of the d.ay. Speak- ing generally I sliould say that that is not my opinion. I think nothing would be more fatal or mischievous than to recommend any measures which would have the effect of altering the character of Eton as a great classical school; one of the first classical schools in the country. My own opinion is that there is no foundation so good for the education of an English gentleman as that classical education which is furnished at Eton, Harrow, and our other great public schools, and I think that tliat should be borne in mind as a fundamental condition of public BChool education. I should be son-y to see any plan recommended wliicli should have the effect of, in any degree, diminishing tlie amount of scholarsliip, wliich has hitherto been considered the point to be aimed at in the education at Eton. There has been an idea amongst many people growing up of late years that it is desirable to make the study of modern lan- guages and English history much more important branches of education at Eton than has hitherto been the case. My ovra. belief is, that with the exception of a slight modification which I should like to suggest with regard to Frencli, it would not be desirable to make modern languages an essential por- tion of the curriculum of study at Eton. In the first place, because the object of learning modern languages is to acquire the power of speaking them, not merely to learn them in tlie way in which we learn Latin and Greek. We all know that a man may be an extremely good Latin and Greek scholar; he may have spent a good many years of his life in acquiring a thorougli knowledge of Greek and Latin; but if compelled to converse in either of those languages he would break down in the first sentence. Probably the Greek pro- fessor at this moment would not be able to hold a conversation in Greek. I suppose I might assume that to be the case. I have heard it said with regard to an eminent professor, whose name I will not mention, who was also a very good Latin scholar, that he found him- self, in a country where Latin is spoken, unable to hold 1. conversation with any person in Latin, though he is unquestionably a first-rate scholar. There is no doubt a boy miglit learn a foreign language, French or Ger- man, in a twelvemonth on the continent in a much more satisfactory manner than he could learn it in six years at Eton. My own opinion is that it would bo expedient to limit tlie amount of modern languages taught at Eton to a twelvemonth's course in French, which I would require every boy to pass through in a certain part of the scliool. 9363. (Lord Lyttelton.) What part ?— About tho middle, so tliat it might not interfere with the strict attention to scliolarsliip which can never be recovered afterwards. If a boy does not learn it at school or col- lege he can never get it afterwards, whereas he may go on improving in modern languages to the end of his life. I think a boj' sliould be required to go through a certain course of French. I spoke to tlie late Provost, the present Provost, and the Head Master about it, and they were all very much of my opinion, and the only dilficulty was to lix the part of the school in which that most usefully could be introduced. My own opinion was that the " remove " was the best, and I proposed to sub- stitute it for the old plan of teaching geography in that part of tlie school, which to my certain knowledge was very inefficiently taught at Eton, and was altogether a waste of time. When I was at Eton they had to go through a year's course of geography in the l•emo^•e, and it was taught in about the most repulsive and dis- tasteful manner possible, and proljably before they arrived at the sixth form they forgot everything they had leaj-nt in that part of the school. I have compared notes with many Eton boys about it and I generally find they agree with me as to the absurd w.ay in which geography was taught. 936-1. {Lord Devon.) You speak of ancient geo- graphy ? — Yes ; ancient and modern. I daresay you know the system. We had to make maps and learn all the ancient names of obscure towns in Asia Minor, and other parts of the world, enough to disgust a boy with geography. I conceive the only way is to have maps always before your eyes, and to do what children are taught very often, to put them together on a table. I believe there is no better w.ay of teaching geography than the old nursei-y schoolroom plan of maps that take to pieces. With respect to French, I should not propose to introduce it .as a part of the school curriculum l)eyond one twelvemonth in the middle part of the school, in order that the boys might acquire a familiarity with the verbs and the grammar, and know enough about it to be able to take it up for them- selves afterwards. I would make that a part of tho school system, and I would altogether get rid of any extra charge for French, which I think in the present day is not a creditable charge for the masters to make. I think two French masters would be amply sufficient for teaching the number of boys in that part of tho school, say from 80 to 100, and that that ought to be included in the course of education and not be chai'ged for as an extra. 9365. (Sir S. Northcote.) Would you allow boys after they have passed through that part of the school to go on with French as a voluntary subject ? — If they did that I think they must do it in extra hours, as a sort of priviite business. I would not introduce it as part of the regular school work, because I think you could not do it without introducing too great a number of subjects, which is not desirable. For a boy to bo learning four or five things at once is more than ha cau do profitably. I think it might have the effect Pp ETON. J. Waller, Esif. M.P. 17 March 1863. 298 PUBLIC SCHOOLS COMMISSION :— MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. ETON. of diminishing the attention which ought to be paid T iTr";r"r'„„ to Greek and Latin. .7. 1 , alter hsq., ^^^^ ^^, ^j^^^ ^^j j ^^^^^ ^^ ^^^ ^^^^^ afterwards, would _: you make tliem pay for it as au extra ?— That might 17 March 1863. be a question for consideration. I am hardly prepared to say what ought to be done about that. I do not think myself it would bo necessary that they should. I think that a l)oy wlio had gone through that course of French in the school would not require extra teach- ino-. He would be .ible to teacli himself. In the s.ame way with regard to mathematics. There is at present an extra ehai-ge for mathematics, which I think very objectionable. One of ray boys, who is in the sixth form now, has frequently asked my leave to attend the extra mathematical school. I consented to it, but I protest against it as an .abuse. I think that what the school undertakes to teach it should teach as part of the regular school system, and not make it a means of extorting money from parents. 9367. {Mr. r/(ow;^Ji'o«.) It is four guineas, is It not. '' — I do not know what it is. 9368. {Mr. Vaugltan.) With regard to the time at which you propose to teach French, have you thought how many hours you would give in the week to the cultivation of that language ?— I have not thought particularly about that. I presume three or four times a week. You must understand that the sj'stem at Eton is that the number of hours passed in school does not represent the amount of work done by the boy. The Tvork is done out of school, and although some persons propose that more work should be done in school, I do not think that would fit in with the Eton system, which is essentially conducted in this manner — that the little "boys get up' their lessons in the pupil room, and the ■bigger boys who are old enough to be trusted get up their work by themselves in their own rooms. They merely go to school to repeat what they have learnt. Therefore the amount of actual work done in school, whether in the French class or any other class, does not represent the amount of work done by the boy. 9369. {Lord Devon.) I think your objection to the introduction of any French in any larger portion of tlie school than that to which you refer arises from your fear that it would interfere with the classical instruction of the school ?— I think so. 9370. Several opinions have been expressed before Us by other witnesses as to the possibility of intro- ducing it more extensively than you refer to, by giving up a certain portion of the classical work which, in the judgment of those witnesses, could be omitted without injury to the ultimate results of the ♦ classical education, such as repetition (to some extent) or the construing in the tutors' rooms ; by which means it has been suggested that without in the slightest degree impairing the classical instruction, more time could be given to other branches ? — I should be sorry to see a single line of repetition diminished. I attach the greatest importance to the amount of learning by heart •practised at Eton. I believe it to be of the greatest adv.intage in after life to a man who has acquired that habit of learning verses by heart. 9371. {Lord Lyttelton.) Do you know the amount of time now given at Eton in the week to repetition ? ■ — I do not know. I do not suppose it is greater than it was in our time. 9372. I think we have been told it is about seven hours a week ? — You mean in school ? 9373. In school ? — One master hears 40 or 50 boys repeat. If he is to do it thoroughly of course it takes some time. There is no help for it. Boys must all go \\\i together, and they ought to be put on rather in a haphazard way, so as to know whether they have learnt their lessons thoroughly. In my time it used to be the fashion to do that part of the business rather slovenly, and a quick boy often eame in without having got up his lesson. He learnt the half dozen lines or so he thought he was likely to be called up to say, and got oft' in that way. I had a private tutor and was obliged to learn every word by heart, and I always found the advantage of it. I know •that formerly it used to be conducted in au ii-regular manner. I believe now they do pay much more atten- tion to the learning by heart, and the boys are obliged to learn a very considerable proportion thoroughly. 9374. {I^ord Devon.) What do you say as to the construing in the pupil room ? — That is a sort of pre- liminary exercise to see whether the boys have got up their work before going into school. I see no disad- vantage in it, I think it is rather a desirable thing, because it affords a seciu-ity for boys having learnt their lesson. It is impossible for the Head Master to call up every boy. In my time boys seldom reckoned upon being called up more than once or twice in the half, and the consequence was that many of them came in without having looked at the lesson at all. If the work is thoroughly done in the pupil room it affords a security against that, because the tutor will probably look sharp after the boys he thinks likely to be idle, and that affords a double security that the work has been properly done. 937o. Supposing the forms were brought do-\vn to from 30 to 35 boys in each form, do you not think it would be practicable for the assistant master in charge of the form so far to exercise all the boys in con- struing as to some extent to render it unnecessary to have preliminary construing ? — I cannot say without having seen the thing practically tried. 9376. What were the numbers of the forms in your time of each master ? — During the two last years I was at Eton the school was particularly low. One year it was 450, not much more than half the present number. I was up to the Head Master, Dr. Keate, then. It was in his last year. He was getting old and rather short sighted, and the thing was done in a very careless manner. 9377. What were the numbers in the forms ? — Some of them had as many as 60 or 70 at that time. 9378. {Lord Lyttelton.) Do you know what it is now ? — I do not. Those are matters of detail on which I am hardly competent to give an opinion. 9379. {Lord Devon.) On the point of the necessity of the prelimin.ary construing, of course a diminution in the number of boys in each form would alter the state of things ? — It would, so far, but the preliminary construing need not take up any great amount of time. Half an hour ought to be sufficient. 9380. Looking to the importance of French on which you have dwelt, what should you s.ay to tlie making the possession of some knowledge in French a necessary condition of entrance ? — That is a plan which I believe is a favourite one with the Head Master, but that might interfere materially with the early age at which many boys go to Eton. Perhaps you are aware that many boys go to Eton at seven or eight years of age. I have known an instance of a boy going at five and a half. 9381. Do you think that is desirable ? — I do not think it is. 9382. At what age 'would you send a boy to Eton ? — It depends entirely on circumstances. I think my- self it is desirable to keep a boy at home as long as you can. That is my first principle. I have six sons. The first I kept at home till 12 years of age. He had a tutor. He then went to Eton and I sent with him his brother who was 10 years old, because 1 found that there was not the same necessity for keeping a tutor then as there was with the eldest. I should prefer if possible to keep a boy at home, or at all events from going to Eton till about 12 years of age. That gives him six years at Eton, which I think is a veiy fair period to enjoy the full benefit of the school. 9383. Then probably you do not attach any great importance to the lower school ? — It is a very good school for little boys. I have every reason to be satisfied with it, for I have had one of my own boys in Mr. Hawtrey's house, and was extremely well pleased with the way he was brought up. I think he was sufiiciently well looked after, and I think better than at most private schools. 9384. Would you limit the age at which they -should remain in the lower school ? — It is hard to do 1>UBLIC SCHOOLS COMMISSION : — MINUTES OF EVIDENCK 299 (hat, because age and size do not always go together. It is very inconvenient, no doubt, to have a big stupid fellow in the remove or lower division fifth form — a boy, I mean, who by mere physical strength can Jissurac a position which his abilities do not entitle him to take. I think that is undesirable, but it is very difficult to prescribe rules for that, because it might operate very hardly on some boys. 9385. Looking to the commencement of the lower Fchool, at what age would 3'ou send boys ; would you Lave any minimum ? — I think eight years of age is very good. A boy ought to be fit to go into the upper school at 10, in order to get to the sixth form, which is the thing to be aimed at by boys in going to Eton, and unless they reach that they will lose a great part of the benefit of the school. A boy ought to get into the lower division fourth form between 10 and 11. 9386. In order to reach the sixth form at what age ? — At 17. It is a great thing for a boy, if pos- sible, to be a twelvemonth in the sixth form. It gives him the habit of self-respect. He is treated altogether as a gentleman. It gives him a habit of self-respect and independence, which is of great use to him at College. 9387. Do you think there is any advantage in limiting the numbers of the sixth form, or would you extend them ? — I do not know what the present num- ber is. 9388. Twenty at present ?— I think that is rather small for so large a school as Eton has grown to. 9389. I believe the number of the sixth form has not varied, though the school has lai'gely increased ? — Yes, I should be disposed to increase it. I am sur- prised to hear it is so small. I should have thought in a school of 800 boys 40 would not be too much. Before we leave the subject of French, I may mention a thing which struck me much some years ago. I went to Eton on one of the speech days, the 4th of June, and two boys declaimed a passage from Racine, one of them with such remarkably good accent that I ■went to Dr. Ilawtre)-, who was the Head JNIaster then, and said, " How in the world did you teach " this boy such good French ?" " Well," he said, " this boy has been brought up at Paris." I said, " You have relieved my mind immensely ; I was " afraid you taught him.'' He said, " I suppose you " thought we got on too fast ?" I said, " Yes, I was " afraid my theory was upset." But that boy was no scholar ; he had no acquirements at all in any other way, and he would have carried off the French prize with no more trouble and no more merit than a boy brought up by Pericles, if you could suppose such a thing, would carry off a prize for Greek. It was no merit to him at all ; he had simply acquired it as a part of his mother tongue. It was a great advantage to him, but no credit to the school, nor any proof that the system could be properly worked in the school. 9390. That is as regaids pronunciation ? — Yes. I maintain you cannot teach it at Eton. Unless a boy is in the daily habit of intercourse with persons who speak French, and is obliged to do it, so that it almost comes to him like his mother tongue, he cannot learn it in the way it is most desirable that he should. 9391. {Lord Lyttelton.) If a boy goes to Eton at about 11 or 12 who has been as well grounded as it is possible to be in families of the upper class in French, do you not think that, apart from the question of teaching French at Eton, it might be kept up so as to prevent his losing what he had acquired at home ? — I very much doubt it. a friend of mine, who is a re- markably good philologist, mentioned to me the case of a boy whom he knew, who had been brought up at Copenhiigen or Stockholm, I forget which, who, when he was 10 years of age, was able to speak French, German, and Swedish perfectly. He said before he had been two years in England he had for- gotten every word of those languages. 9392. (Mr. Thompson.) What do you quote that example as proving ? — As showing that when they cease to be kept up by constant intercourse with other persons that they lose it, and as a proof that the popular notion that when a child learns French in the ETON, nursery it is quite sufficient, and will never forget it j ^j/,,/,^,^ r;.. in after life, is quite a mistake. " j/./j' 9393. {Lord Lyttelton.) I am supposing that the four mouths of holidays in the year are not lost 17Marclil8C3. in the way of keeping up or even improving the -■ knowledge of French ? — If the parents consider it a thing of vit.ll importance that the boy should speak French or any other language, and choose to take him abroad or place him in constant contact with persons who speak those languages, he will acquire them without any necessity of their being kept up at Eton at all. 9394. {Sir S. Northcote.^ What advantage do you propose to derive from giving a boy one year in French in the remove ? — I think it would give him an acquaintance with the verbs, for instance. He might learn a good deal by heart, and be able to get a thorough knowledge of the conjugation of verbs and that description of technical knowledge which is of great importance, and which if he got thoroughly at that time he would not forget. 9395. {Mr. Vaiiglian.) Grammatical knowledge, in fact ? — Yes, without attempting to do more. 9396. {Sir S. Northcote.) Do you not think ho would forget it if he was not kept up for the next three or four years at Eton ? — I do not think so. I think with a little practice at home, such as reading some French book, he would not forget that. 9397. Do you not find that even men who have spent 10 and 12 years of their life working hard at the Latin and Greek languages, and who really have made a certain progress in mastering them, forget them entirely if they do not keep them up ? — I do not think that they forget the verbs and the ele- mentary parts. I am bound to say that my impression is (it may be thought paradoxical, and it is contrary to the curreut opinion on the subject) that there is a fallacy in attaching such vast importance to the study of modern languages. People say " What is the use " of studying dead languages which you are never " called upon to speak in after life?" I sny, wliat is the use of studying modern languages which you are never called upon to speak in after life ? I say as a matter of fact, and as far as my observation goes of persons in my own position in life, and looking at the thing in a mere utilitarian point of view, not at all with reference to modern languages .is accomplish- ments and means of education which they undoubtedly are, I say that most men who receive the education of English gentlemen and are fit to take their places, and do take their places, in public life and in various professions, practically are not called upon to make much use of their knowledge of modern languages. I will take the case of most clergymen, most professional men, most members of Parli.nment even, most country gentlemen, who form the staple of the class which Eton sends out. I say that as a matter of fact they are not called upon to speak five sentences of a modern language perhaps once in two or three years. In England, of course, they speak their own language, and unless they happen to be mixed up with diplomatic circles and to go much into a particular class of society which is very limited' where French is occasionally spoken, they are not called upon to speak a modern language except when they go abroad. They go to Switzerland perhaps once in two or three years for six weeks. Directly they open their lips they are answered in English and they immediately desist from continuing the conversa- tion in a modern language. Such at least is my experience. I am not at all denying that it is au immense advantage and a great accomplishment to a man to be a good linguist, but I do not know that the accomplishment is much greater than that of singing or playing on an instrument nor half so much called into requisition. I believe that in society a man would be more pojjular who had a good voice or could play well on an instrument, and would be called upon to exercise it far more frequently than the man who was the best French or German scholar Pp2 300 PUBLIC SCHOOLS COMMISSION :— MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 17 March 1863. nian ETON. in the country — as a mere matter of fact and of ex- • perience. I consider that, after all, the great object of J.Waller, Esq., education, next to training the mind to overcome ^^■^- difficulties, which is the primary object, is to train the man for discharging certain definite functions and relations towards his fellow-citizens, his own country- men, and that those relations are best discharged by a man who, cateiis paribus, tliat is to say of equal powers of mind, can best express himself in his own language either in conversation or in writing, and that the best testof a good education is to be able to write a good letter. I can mention as a proof of that, that at Oxford in my time, and I believe still, the test of the greatest ability and the most successful education .and mental training in the university was always held to be the Oriel fellow- ship, and that depended upon what ? Not up iu scholarship, or mathematics, but upon English composi- tion. An English essay was always held to be the decisive test of the man best fitted to take the highest position a man could reacJi at Oxford — the Oriel fellowship. All those men have been men of mark, men who have influenced their fellow-citizens in after life, whereas if you t'er of English com- position is about the best test that can be applied to a man to show what his education has done for him. If I were called upon to examine 20 men whom I had never seen before for the civil service I should give them a sheet of paper and say, " Write me a letter on such a subject." I would pick out the best men quite as easily as could be done by the severest examina- tion. 9398. {Lord Lyttelfon.) Do I understand you to be- lieve that English is spoken as much abroad among the upper classes, taking the whole continent, and spoken with as much facility as French is ? — I fancy not. 9399. I understood you to say that if an Englishman went abroad and began to talk French he would be immediately answered iu English ? — Englishmen do not travel much in France to begin with ; they go to P.aris and stay there ; but France, generally speaJdng, is a land of passage ; I rather meant other countries, Germany or Russia. Very few men, compai-ati^ely, speak German. 9400. Do you apprehend that, taking Gemiany generally, they will find as much facility in conversing in English as with tlie French educated class ? — No ; I think French is much used in Germany. 9401. In Italy or Spain? — Of course, to a great extent. I am not denying the advantage of it. 9402. I mean comparatively with England ? — I think in Germany you will find a great deal of English spoken by masters of the hotels, and in Switzerland more and more every j'ear. 9403. In Italy, do you hear English spoken ? — Certainly in Eonie ; I do not know about Florence. I think French is more spoken in Florence. 9404. {Lord Devon.) Are you of opinion that of late years the use of French has "become more necessary from increased intercourse ? — In commerci.nl transac- tions. 9405. I did not mean othli/ commercial : I am not sure whether it is within your knowledge, but probably you know that people frequently come over to inquire into the working of our municipal institutions in various ways,_ merchants, or lawyers, or philanthropists, or scientific men, with all of whom it is important that we should communicate ?— What I mean to say is that Eton is not the plaee to learn it at. It is a great advantage to a man to go abroad and learn these languages, but I do not think that an English public school is the place in which he can xacquire them. He cannot possibly acquire them with the same facility ; therefore, so far it is a loss of time. Many young men go to France or are under a French tutor, or live with a French family, or a German family, and they will acquii-o the lan"-ua"-e they wish to learn in a twelvemonth's time with far greater facility than in any given number of years in any English school ; therefore I say if you attempt to teach it for the purpose of conversation, you are losing your time. You may teach a boy gra- matically, of ooui-se, as you may teach him Latin and Greek ; but every one knows that learning a language in that way is not the best way to learn to speak it. 9406. It gives them command of the literature ? — AVhich very few of us read. I have he.ard Mr. Gladstone, who is a great scholar, as we all know, modern as well as ancient, say how little French literature was read. 9407. {Lord Lyttelton.) He did not say that, as considering it a desirable state of things ? — He said it was a matter of fact. I do not think it is con- genial to English tastes generally ; in fact, after a man re.aches a certain time of life we know there is littld reading of any sort. I could mention, in confirmation of that, a remark I heard from Mr. Vardon, the libra- rian of the House of Commons. I went iu one day in the recess and was looking over the library, I said " What a number of magnificent books you have been " buying, who reads them ?" he said, " Who reads any- " thing ? nobody reads anything here except Sir " George Lewis and myself." 9408. {Lord Devon.) But the object of a public school would be to foster that taste ? — You will not do it, you may depend upon iL You cannot-create a demand, you must leave the demand to create the supply. 9409. {Mr. Vaughan.) Without at all saying how far such a consideration affects the time at which the language should be taught, both in history and philo- sophy, is there not much that a scholar would not like to be excluded from iu French ? — Undoubtedly ', but then I consider the use of education at Eton, is to acquire such a knowledge of the dead languages as to make himself able to read any other language. I should like, if the committee will allow me, to call attention to a very rem.ai-kahle letter, published many years ago in the ■' Educational Magazine " by Niel.iuhr on this very subject, who was a very good authority^ because he was the master of twenty languages. The letter is altogether the most remai'kable I ever read in my life. I read it 2.5 years ago, and it made a great impression upon me. I called the attention of my friend Mr. Balston, now the Head Master of Eton, to it, and he told me the other day he had never forgotten it. The letter is published in the first number of the " Educational Magazine ;" it was written in 1822, and it contains general remarks on the objects of classical edu» cation, .and on the style of classical education which boys ought to be kept to. It also touches on a point which I have often thought has been very much mistaken, and that is on the subject of original essiiys. I re- member at Eton and Oxford frequently being really overwhelmed by the kind of subjects that were given me to write upon for English essays. I may mention in passing that there is a particular subject referred to here which I mentioned to a friend the other day, and he said, " Well, it is the very subject which I had to " write upon for an English essay at Oxford." The letter is ^\Titten to a young man of 19 who has been working hard, and who proposes to give a proof of his attainments by writuig a certain essay and sending it to Nicbuhr for his opinion and advice. Ho says, " You " have undort.akcn to wi'ite about the Roman colonies " and their influence on the State" — that is just the kind of subject which they give at the universities and public schools sometimes to -wi-ito upon. " Now, it is quite impossible that you can have so much as a half-correct conception of the Roman colonies ; and to write about their influence on the PUBLIC SCHOOLS COMMISSION :— MINUTES OF EVIDENCa SOI state, you should not only accurately understand the constitution of Rome and its history, but should be acquainted with the principles and history of politics ; all -which as yet is impossible. When I say this, I •will add that none of us, who are entitled to the name of philologcrs, could have treated the subject at your age ; not even Grotius, or Scaliger, or Salmasius, who ■were excellent grammarians so much earlier than any of us. Still less suited to you is your second subject. You must know enough of antiquity to be aware that the philosophy of young men, down to a much riper age than yours, consisted in silent listening, in endea- vouring to understand, and to learn. You cannot even have an acquaintance with the facts, much less carry on general reflections — to let pass the word philosophical, or questions of minute detail, mostly problematical. To learn, my dear friend^ to learn conscientiously ; to go on sifting and incre.asing our knowledge ; tjiis is our speculative calling through life. And it is so most especially in youth, which has the happiness that it may give itself up without hin- drauce to the charms of the new intellectual world opened to it by books. He who writes a dissertation, let him say what he will, pretends to teach ; and one cannot teach without some degree of wisdom, which is the amends that, if we strive after it, God will give us for the departing bliss of youth. A wise young man is a monster." Then he says also : — " When you are ^\Titing, examine carefully wl>ether your language be of one colour. It matters not to my inind whether you attach yourself to that of Cicero and Livy, or to that of Tacitus and Quintilian ; but one period you must choose, else the result is a motley style, which is as offensive to a sound philologer as if one were to mix up German of 1650 and of 1800. Try to acquire the art of connecting sentences, with- out which all attempts at writing Latin are downright torture to the reader ; and, most especially, look care- fully to your metaphors ; wlijitever is not quite fault- less in them is intolerable. Hence, writing Latin is such an excellent discipline for a good style, and next to Latin French, which also will not tolerate any absurdities ; whereas we Germans, in our own lan- guage, are lamentably indifferent about such matters." So he being a German, and being also a master of many other lauguages, thought that Latin and French were the two best subjects for composition, and German the worst. 9410. {Mr. Twislefo?!.) I presume that what Nie- bulir says about French there is with reference to style ? — To composition and to style of writing. 9411. Then, admitting that French is the best or the style of writing, it may still be the case that it is desirable to be acquainted with German on account of the matter of the German authors ?— No doubt it might be so. 9412. (Mr. Thompson.) For instance, we should not have had the benefit of that letter of Niebuhr^s if we had been ignorant of German ? — Of course. The question is, whether the object of the school is to train the mind to develop the powers of the mind in the most effectual- way — it may be a question of what is the most effectual way — or to give a boy a sort of insight info a vast number of branches of literature. I do not think that is the true object. I think the object of education is to ti'ain the mind to overcome difficulties, and to get it into shape ; and if you confuse the mind by introducing to it a great variety of subjects you lose power. You may gain an amount of knowledge, but you lose power. The great object is to gain power, and I think that every- thing like forcing the mind at that early age, when it is very active, at the same time when the reasoning powers are not fully developed, between 15 and 18, is a very dangerous thing ; it is a growing age. Boys grow very fast, and Eton, perhaps, is rather a forcing place for the growth of boys. It is not a bracing place ; it is a place where boys, unless they have good living and plenty of exercise, would sicken, and I should be extremely sorry to see much more pressure put on the mentaJ powers of the boys at Eton than there is now,, I think they would break down under it. We have ETON, often had great ideas, which I know are shared by j \y^i^ Esq many men of far higher authority than myself as to the ' M.P. effect even of things apparently so praiseworthy at first '■ • sight and so desirable as the Newcastle scholarship. I 17 March 1SC3. sliould not wish one of my own sons to get that scholar- ship, judging from v.hat I have kno^\■n from my own observation of the future careers of men of my owii time who obtained it. I think it has the eftect of sti-« mulating early talents too soon, and that a boy very often pays for it in after life. 9413. {Lord Lytlelton.) Must not that be the case with any competitive examination ? — At an early age. If it is a severe searching examination at au early age, it is dangerous. I think the great object of a public school is to train tlic greatest amount of average talent which is likely to be useful in English society. You want a strong healthy race of men, both in mmd and body, and not a number of finely grown plants, and not boys like three-year old winners of the Derby — • horses who win one race, and then are done for. 9414. {3Ir. Tu'isleton.) To come back to German literature ; if men with powerful minds, great thinkers, have written in it, is not that a motive for leaAing the language, supposing that the style is not so complete aa French ? — I may say at once I am not acquainted wilk German literature, and therefoi-e not competent to speak on the subject, but I liave been acquainted with men who ai'e good Gennan scholars. I have not discovered that they att.ich such great importance in a practical point of view to German literature. It may be very wonderful, but I do not know that it exercises any beneficial influ- ence on English society or English life altogether. I had much rather a boy should be ■\\-cll acquainted with Shakespeare than with any amount of Gennan litera- ture. 9415. (3/r. Thompson.') What was the age of this young man ? — Nineteen. 9416. Then the remark that Niebuhr makes on the advisability of a yomig man of tliat age ■\\Titing essays you think would not apply to the practice at Oriel of requiring them from candidates for fellowships ? — I tlunk not ; they are young men of 21 or 22, 9417. You think tliat makes a difference ? — I thinli; tlirce years make a considerable difference. I believe you can have no better test than at Oriel. I have alwaj's considered it to be the best ; it may be owing to exceptional circumstances, but I believe it to be the best test for discovering a man's mental power. I should rather judge of a man by what he could do ia that way than in any other way. 9418. Have you observed what schools in those days were generally successful in obtaining feUowships at Oriel ? — I think there is no particular rule about it. 9419. Were many Etonians fellows of Oriel? — I am not sure. 9420. Do jou remembei- one ? — I do not know that ido. 9421. You speak of that as the crowning achieve- ment of a first-rate Oxford scholar ? — I think it is ; you have got the whole world to enter. 9422. {31r. Twislcton.) Is it not the case that iu competition for Oriel fellowship, probablj', the schoolat which any boy has been educated ,is a veiy small element in success ? — I think so ; it depends princi- pally on the mental power. 9423. Then, as far as a classical education at school goes, that is scarcely a guide to the system which should be pursued at the schools ? — No, but the name of has been mentioned, who was the captain of the oppidans at the time I went to Eton ; he was double first-class man. I never heard of his having had any other education but what he got at Eton. He went to Oxford ; there were only three first-class men in his examination ; he was one of them, a double first- class man and an Oriel fellow. 9424. That merely proves that education at a public school is not incompatible with success in obtaining an Oriel fellowship ? — If you suppose any school can turn out a very large proportion of first-class men. It cannot do it ; the men are not there. We all know Pp3 302 PUBLIC SCHOOLS COMMISSION: — MINUTliS OF EVIDENCE. ETON; there are very few first-class men in the world of any -; — „ sort and no system of education you could possibly ^■''^f/''^"!-' aevi'se will make them. • • 942,5. Is it your impression that any large propor- i: 5Iarch 18C3. tion of those who have been successful at Oriel College were educated at public schools ?— I know some who were. 9426. Take Mr. Keble, was Mr. Keble educated at a public school ? — I do not tliink he was. 9427. Was Mr. Ne-ivman ? — No. 942S. Was Dr. Piisey? — I think he was an Eton man. 9429. Was Archbishop Whately ?— I do not know. Sir John Coleridge was, I suppose, I do not see that the Eton system conduces to that. I have merely intro- duced this subject in speaking of what I conceive to be the s^reat object of all education which is to enable men to'deal with their fellow-citizens in certain dif- ferent relations, and tliat, after all, a thorough mastery of their own language, which, I maintain, is best ac- quired by a classical education, is wliat most fits a man for dealing with other men. Tiike the House of Com- mons, take the leading men on both sides of the House, take the men on the Treasuiy Bench ; you have Mr. Gladstone, Sir George Cornewall Lewis, both, I think, Eton men. Sir Charles Wood is an Eton man. Sir Georn-e Grey is not ; and Lord Palmerston is a Harrow- man, Imd the late Sir Robert Peel was a Harrow man. Although it is the fashion to say that a great number of Eton men do not go to Parliament, there are fe-till the best men and the best speakers in tlie House of Com- mons who have received that peculiar training, and those who have not generally wished for it. I think that, with all Mr. Cobden's genius, he would have been a more effective speaker if he had been a better scholar. 9430. {Lord Devon.) What would be your view of the comparative advantage of translation and re- translation, and original composition ?— For acquiring a knowledge of language I think translation and re- translation is far better than original composition. 9431. In your time was there enough of trans- lation and rc-translation at Eton ? — No. 9432. You would gladly, therefore, I suppose, see more introduced, supposing the system to be such as it ■was in your time ? — I think so. 9433. {3Ir. Twislcton.) Are you acquainted with the system of education pursued at Rugby ? — Not at all. 9434. You cannot say whether you think it more likely that that kind of education would adapt a yQung man for winfiing an Oriel fellowship than the educa- tion at Eton ? — I cannot say ; I do not know enough about it. 9435. You do not know whether it might bring out that faculty of thought and aptitude for writing good English prose better than the system at Eton ? — I think boys at Eton get a very good idea of writing Englsh ])rose, judging from the lettei-s I see. 9436. It was rather with reference to this point : supposing that the final test of a really good education may be considered the gaining such a fellowship as that of Oriel, is the system actually pursued at Rugby more or less likely to lead to that result than the system actually pursued at Eton ? — I am not acquainted with tlie Rugby system. 9437. {Lord I^yttekon.) Do you attribute any im- portance, as to the cultivation of English, to what is not part of the school system, but a very important thing at Eton — the debating society ? — I have rather loubts about the advantages of (ca,rly debating so- cieties. I tliink they are apt to encourage boys to lutrun their thoughts, to acquire a glibness and fluency which is not always desirable. 9438. Do you think it leads them to attend to English books and English history ? — I think it does. In that respect its effect is good ; it gives them a subject to get up — Queen Elizabeth's reign, or something of that kind, and they read it up with pleasure, far more beneficially than if it were set as a lesson ; but when they come to talk about it, unless they really keep to what they know, I am not sure that the fluency of speech which they sometimes acquire is advantageous. 9439. You think as to the language the effect is more doubtful than as to the amount of knowledge ? — Yes ; I have reason to know that boys are led by it to read a good deal by themselves, and take an interest in English literature, which they would not otherwise perhaps do. 9440. Do you apprehend that has an effect beyond the mere members of the society. Do you think that boys rather look forward to it ? — It is thought an honour to belong to " Pop." 9441. As to mathematics, do you approve of its being compulsory to the degree it now is at Eton ? — I believe that some boys, who in other respects have great abilities, have a natural disqualification at an early age for mathematics. Boys of quick, lively imagination very often feel that disgust and repugnance to Euclid which you can hardly overcome, and I am not sure that it is desirable to force it upon them. I think many boys are prevented from taking up mathematics in after life from having had it forced upon them too early. 9442. You would be disposed to exercise some selection, and not make it univers.al? — I should make them all good arithmeticians; but when you come to abstract questions, I do not think it suits every boy. You sometimes find a boy who has no talent at all in classics, but who is a very good mathematician; other boys have a great taste for classics but have a peculiar repugnanee to mathematics, simply because their reasoning faculties are not sufficiently developed, 9443. {Sir S. Northeote.) D© you think there is any corresponding incapacity in someboysfor doing original composition and verse ? — Original verse composition, I believe to be the most useful thing for boys who have any degree of natural aptitude, as most boys have, for versification. I think that Latin verse composition is a most useful way of acquiring a mastery over the language. 9444. Did you not say, on the side of mathematics, you would exercise a sort of selection; would you exercise any corresponding selection on the side of verse composition ? — I do not think there would be any harm. 944.5. You would not make it compulsory on al! boys ? — Not beyond a certain limit. I think common elegiacs in hexameters are within the reach of most boj's to do in a decent way; but when you come to " Sapphics " and " Alcaics," I think they require more refinement in composition. 9446. {I^ord Lyttclton.) Yon would not apply that to prose writing ? — No; certainly not. I think the gieat object is to teach boys to write prose properly. 9447. Latin prose, I mean ? — I think it a sine qua non. 9448. {Sir S. Northeote.) There are a certain num- ber of boys in the present day who go to public schools and are not intended to go on to the univer- sities, but who are intended to go into some of the scientific professions — to Woolwich, for example — and who, in order to pass the examination for Woolwich, require a certain amount of training in modern lan- guages and other matters which are rather outside the present Eton curriculum, how would you propose to deal with those boys ? — If I had a boy of my own whom 1 wished to send to Woolwich, or to prepare for any scientific profession, I should take him awa}' from Eton at 16. I would rather do that than inter- fere with the general curriculum at Eton so as to accommodate it to his particular wants; because you must recollect that you are dealing with a vast number of boys and you must look to the average; you must have a system which will apply to all. I do not think you can have a particular class, such as a class for the army, a class for the civil service, or a class for the law. I do not think it would be desirable. I should rather keep up the general standard, having regard to the possibility of all the boys who stay till 18 going to the university, which I may say is the com- pletion of the Eton system of education. I would rather take a boy away from Eton when he was 16, which would have afforded him sufficient time to get PUBLIC SCHOOOLS COMMISSION: — ^MIKUTES OF EVIDENCE. 303 groat benefit from tho seliool — good habits, aiul so forth — I would rather take him away and scud hira to sorao place where he could have a special training. If you choose to expose these boys to examination which requires that training, I am not at all sure that your examination is right; that is another question. 9449. i^l^ord Lyttcllon.) Do you delUx-rately hold the opinion which you have just indicated; is it not the case that for a well-disposed boy the general benefits, the moral benefits, of the school, are chiefly to be had between the ages of 16 and 18 ? — Yes; but a boy will get a great deal of good up to 16; good which he will not lose. It has become the fashion of late j'ears to ha\e competi- tive examinations, and examinations of all sorts for boys, before they can enter the civil service, and as a pre- liminary condition for entering other professions. I do riot hold by the s3'stem. I do not think it is necessary; but if you choose to have that system I would not alter the Eton system in older to meet it. You fnay say it is very hard tliat a boy wlio wants to go into the civil service should not be fit to pass the examination for the civil service when he leaves Eton at 18. I say he is fit. Although he may not be able to pass your examination I should have no scruple in taking him pro- Tided he could write an English letter in an intelligible and good hand, and could express liimself sensibly and reasonably. Of course it should beof sufficient length, and on a subject which would to a certain extent bring out his knowledge; but I do not think myself that that sort of examination is necessary. It has been adopted for certain jiublic reasons, very much in order to choke off the number of applicants, and to save ministers and other people the trouble of being solicited by friends for places. It may be very convenient; but I main- tain that any sixth-fonn boy — any boy who is sufiicientl)' forward to get into the sixth form at Eton by the time he is 17 — is perfectly fit to take a civil service appointment; and if he wants any special knowledge for it, he should pick it up afterwards. If he wants, for instance, to be a particu- larly good Freneh scholar, he has plenty of time after- wards. I have no hesitation in saying that an Eton sixth-form boy is perfectly competent to t.ake a civil service appointment without passing an examination. 9450. Do you think it unreasonable to expect that a young man appointed to a clerkship in the War Office should be a French scholar ? — I should say he should go abroad and make himself a better French scholar than he eould hope to be at Eton. He had better spend an extra year in going abroad and learning the language. In a foreign office a man requires to be a good linguist, and he should go to some place where he can acquire that knowledge in tho most expeditious and satisfactory manner. 9451. {Mr.Twisleton.) Do yon think he can acquire the accent at fifteen or sixteen 'i — I think he may. I can tell you an instance. I had a private tutor at Eton who was a very good scholar ; he was a scholar of Trinity, Cambridge ; he was a good Greek and Latin scholar tut knew nothing of modern languages. At 50 3'ears of age ho took it into his head to learn modern languages and he went abj^iad and spent three years on the Continent ; he came back a thorough master of French, German, and Italian. He did it with a view of travelling with pupils. lie is now merely holding a curacy ; but he went abroad got a foreign chaplainship, and in three years made liimself a thorough master of those languages, and mixed witli the society in Italy and other countries where he stayed. That I attribute chiefly to his having made himself thoroughly acquainted with the principles of grammar which are the same in all modern languages which we know anything about. By making him a thorough good scholar in Greek and Latin, he acquired the power of teaching himself. 9452. But admitting that he might have learned tho language to speak it, do you think he could acquire a good accent at fifty years of age ? — Perliaps not ; I do not think that is of such extraordinary importance. A man may acquire the mastery of a language sufficient to be able for all practical purposes to converse, without having the accent of ETON. Paris. 9453. But whether it is a thing of extraordinary ' "m_[p, *'' importance or not, is it not desirable that any one in the diplomatic service should be able to speak French 17 March 18r.3. with a correct accent ? — It depends very much on a - — man's ear. Some men will never get a correct accent. They say some Frenchmen themselves do not speak with the French accent, and some men never can acquire it ; but I do not think it is of that vital importance ; if it be, a man had better spend some time on the Continent. 9454. Supposing there was a preliminary examina- for a moderate amount of French for boys who enter Eton, would the parents not take care that they should be instructed in French ? — Then they must keep a French governess or a French nurse, and many people have tried that system and do not like it. 9455. Those who live in London might have a French master ? — They might, and probably that would be the best way. If a boy wishes to learn the language the best way is to have a Frenchman to talk to him for an hour a day ; that is the mos texpe- dilious way, much belter than learning it at school. 9456. {Mr. Vaiighan.) If putting the question of expediency out of sight you could be satisfied that there are other subjects not taught at the public schools at the present time which do really give a peculia.r discipline to the mind, what should you say as to the introduction of those subjects into the j)ublic schools ?— I think whatever studies you intro- duce must be applicable to the whole school. You should not deal with boys as individuals, but as a class. If I wanted to give a boy a thorough knowledge of French, German, or Italian, and to make him a good chemist, and to give him genenill}' a taste for natural philosophy and all those things, no doubt the thing could be done. I could send that boy, or half a dozea boys, to a private tutor, some man who had si:'^- it cannot be done with keeping up what I think of _._. (,rj^£^ ^ primary importance, namely, the classical scholarship MP ' of the school. 9463. Are you prepared to say that they are not well ^n\Iarch 1863. taught classics i-n the German school ? — I am not pre- ■ pared to give an- opinion about it. I know there are wreat German scholars. I would rather take it that tiie average classical knowledge in Germany is not equal to that in England. 9464. If the case wtjre otherwise, your opinion on that point would be modified ? — Yes. ■ 9465. {Mr.Vaughan.) Might it not be the case that boys whom you suppose not very much inclined for mathematics, or not disposed to give extra time to modern languages, could profitably spend time and labour in physical sciences ?— You would require a special class for the purpose, a special school. You have got to see how it would work wthout interfering with the regular system, and how much it would inter- fere. It is very difficult to know how the thing is to be worked. I do not know how much classical and mathematical knowledge you would be prepared to give up. 9466. In fact you think it is rather a question of detail how far you can work such a system ? — Yes ; if Eton is to be a classical school it must be classical as applied to the whole school, and it would be difficult to know how much you would give up, or at what period you would give up classical studies for these physical sciences. 9467. {Mr. Thompson.) I think you have just ex- pressed an opinion that there might be a little reduction in the higher kinds of composition in the case of boys who have no talent for them. You also admit that there may be a reduction in the amount of mathematical instruction to those boys who have no capacity for mathematics ; how would you fill up the vacant time that would thus be set at liberty ? — I think you must have those things taught as extras, that is the worst of it. It may be done. 1 do not say it cannot be done. You teach fencing, drawing, and all sorts of things. I think they might also learn riding. I do not see why that should not be introduced with advantage. I think it is a want in most schools ; it is not so much the case with Eton, because a large proportion of the boys at home are allowed horses and ponies and learn to ride ; but I have often thought a riding school would be a very good thing to be attached to a public school. I wish to say a word about one or two domestic alterations which I would suggest at Eton — I do not know whether they have been brought before the notice of the Commissioners — with regard to the internal economy of the school. There is one practice which has been very much com- mented upon, and which I think is wrong and ought to be abolished. That is the system of leaving-money. The practice has been from time immemorial that wlien a boy leaves he gives a present, or rather his father through him gives a present to the Head Master and tutor of 25/. between them, 10/. to the one and 15/. to the other. I think it savours rather of the old da3's of fees and stage coaches when you used to fee people for this, that, and the other ; and it is not a creditable thing to be kept up in a school of that sort. I should much rather sec an increased charge as compensation to the masters in the form. I think the masters themselves would be glad to get rid of the system. It only wants detennination to break the ice. Several things of that sort exist and would be better dispensed with. Then there is a system among the boys them- selves of leaving books, which is a bad system. 9468. {Lord Lyttcllon.) Do you think that the masters could deal with the system of leaving books ? —I think they might. 9469. In what way ? — I think the parents are the right people, but I think an expression of opinion from a, body like the Commissioners would settle the ques- tion. It is one of those things which everybody would like to get rid of but which everybody is afraid of doing for fear of being thought shabby. 9470. Dr. Goodlord made an attempt, to a certaia extent, in that direction ? — I think he did. He said something to me about it. 9471. He wrote a circular to all the parents. I do not say he required it to be abolished, or suggested that it should, but he suggested that it should be re- strained. It had no sort of effect ? — The parents want some one to tell them. They want somebody uncon- nected with the school to tell them " This is a bad " practice, give it up," and it will be done. In the case of my own boys, I think it costs me about 20/. a year for leaving-books. Probably my sons have two or three private friends whom they are fond of amongst the number to whom they give leaving-books, but the majority they do not care about and probably will not see again. I fall in with it, but as long as the system lasts I do not wish to see it abused, therefore I go to the bookseller's and buy the books myself. I will tell you what the practice is. There ai'e booksellers in London who send down catalogues of all the rubbishy and nn'.-eadable books that they cannot otherwise dispose of. They are vamped up in showy bindings, and are sent down to be palmed off on these poor boys. If you saw a list of them you would be asto- nished. I had once a bill sent in to me by a book- seller for some books which one of my boys had ordered without my leave. I sent them' all back. All the books that could not possibly be sold elsewhere were bound up in tawdry bindings. 9472. {Mr. Thompson.) Can you mention any titles? — I forget the name. As long as the system lasts I make the best of it and get good books, but I think it is a wrong system and ought to be abolished. By way of showing what might be done I can mention what I did myself when I was at Eton. There was then a system worse than that of the leaving books, called the ticket system. The captain of the oppidans made the collection — he had to receive the money for the 4th of June fire- works and supper. Out of this money a certain pro- portion was spent in tickets for beer and cider. It was an utter abomination. It so happened the first year that I was captain of the oppidans which was ia 1835, the school being at an extremely low ebb ia point of numbers the subscriptions did not meet the expenditure, and my father had to find 80/. to meet the subscription. The following year I abolished the system, and it was never heard of afterwards. The masters were very glad to hear we had got rid of it, and I believe leaving books may be got rid of in the same way. 9473. {Lord Devon.) The system of tickets has never been revived ? — No. 9474. {Mr. Thompson.) Have you any other opinions which you would like us to hear as to the economical arrangements at the school ? — No I think not. Eton is called an expensive school and so it is but I find a year at a girls' boarding school is quite as expensive. 9475. {I^ord Devon.) I was about to ask you, adverting to the question of expense, whether there were any other parts of the Eton system in regard to which you think pecuniary reductions might take place so as to lower the expenses of an oppidan ? — I do not myself see any way to it. The dames are not so expensive as the tutors, but the tendency has been to reduce the number of dames, I think it is better, because it enables you to have more masters. 9476. I should like to hear your opinion on the relative advantage of dames' and tutors' boarding houses ? — There are certain advantages m the dames houses not necessarily attached to the institution of dames. The dame really attends to her work. Her work is to look after the boys and take care of them, &c. She does do so, but in the tutor's house there is no one who really discharges that duty. The tutor's wife, if he is married, does not generally undertake the duties of a dame, but delegates them to a house- keeper, by whom they cannot, in my opinion, be so well performed. 9477. {Lord Lyttelton.) You mean that if a parent is anxious to have the best care taken of his boy PUBLIC SCHOOLS COMMISSION: — MINUTES OP EVIDENCE. 305 there should be a dame's house to send him to ? — I think so. 9478. {Lord Devon.) Is there nothing j-ou can pitch upon as a point upon which expenditure may bo reduced ? — I do not tliink so, except with regard to French. I think Frencli ought not to be charged as an extra, because I would have it as part of the regular school work and whatever is part of the regular school work ought not to be charged as an extra. I do not think that mathematics ought to be charged as an extra. I feel indignant when I see a bill come in for extra mathematics. I do not know what it means. I have had it explained to me, but I really do not know^ There is another point merely on the school discipline; I do not know whether it is worth uoticiug. 1 object to the system of bounds and shirk- ing. I am sure in my time it had a bad moral effect on the school. I think it is a bad thing to give boys false notions of right and wrong — to make them think there is any shame in doing things intrinsically not ■wrong. I should repose in them the greatest possible amount of confidence till tiiey abuse it; therefore I am in favour of abolishing the system of shirking together. You can prevent them from getting into mischief, if they are so disposed. The only way is to punish them severely if fouud in improper places; but al)oy cannot go into Windsor park without going into Windsor and it is nonsense to tell a boy he shall not go to Windsor park. I would rather say I would punish him if found with within half a mile of the college. 9479. (Lord Li/ltcltoii.) Do you think the allowing boys on any conditions to go to pul.ilic houses could be done away with at Eton ? — 1 would prevent it if possible. 9480. Do you conceive it could lie ? — The best way is to give them gotxl ln^er at the dames' houses, which was not the case in my time. 9481. {Lord Devon.) Were you at a dame's house .' — I had a tutor, a dame, and a private tutor, and it was as much as I could do to keep on a proper foot- ing with all of them. I boarded up town. I liad a dame, and I had a tutor in addition, and v,-as rather overdone with it. I do not think it is a good system. I think I lost a certain amount of the lienefit of the school by not boarding at a tutor's house. There is not much of it now. 9482. You do not speak of the ordinaiy private tutor system, but the extra ? — There is no such thing as a private tutor system. The private tutor means a special tutor to yourself, who goes with you from home. I think it is a A\Tong sjstem. Having seen the working of all three I can speak from experience. 9483. Passing on to another subject, that of fagging, are there any observations which you wish to make upon that ? — I think the fagging, as it now exists, is an extremely benefioial sj'stem. I should be sorry to see it reduced any further. 9484. You speak of the oppidans ? — Yes ; I do not know what the practice is in college. I think the re- lation between fag and master in every respect is desirable. It brings down young fellows who have been spoilt at home to their level. It teaches them manners, respect for rank, and so on, which is very desirable. When I say rank I mean rank in school. There is no other rank recognized at Eton. Besides that it introduces a sort of relation of patron and client between the fag and his master, and regulates the exer- cise of physical power in a way which could not take place if there were no fagging. If there were no fag- ging there would be bullying. There is no bullying to speak of at Eton. 9485. Does any other point suggest itself to yon, with regard to the system of the school ? — The thing that strikes me especially when I go to Eton now^, as compared with what existed when I first went there, is the kind and gentlemanly behaviour of the boys to each other. It certainly prevails to an extent that is remarkable. 9486. Are your boys in a boarding house ? — No, at a tutor's house. 1. what tutor's ? — ETON. MP. 17 March 1863. 9487. {Lord Lyitelton.) At Mr. Warre's. 9488. {Mr. Thompson.) I want to ask you om -^-^V'tJienEsi. question on a point which has come before us. It is stated that notwithstanding, or rather, jierhaps, in con- sequence of the great imj)rovement that has taken j)lace among the collegers by the system of open com- lietitiou, and other means, the literary tone of the oppi- dans has ])crce})tibly degenerated. Have you any idea of the proper remedy for this state of things? — I believe it is the fact, because I think, in the lirst jilace, the crilege draws off a large proiiorlion of the cleverest hoys in the school. I mean those to whom it is an oiyect to got into college, and that, of course, would tell on the average amount of talent in the school. It has led to the notion that the oppidans are rather neglected for the sake of the collegers. I must tell you I have a theory about the whole thing, which may not be at all correct, but which I think some people will share. My belief is that King's is a great evil to Eton. I had much sooner there were no such rela- tion existing between Eton ami King's. I would rather have no privileged class at all. 9489. In the school ? — I had rather not, because the collegers are the pri\ileged class, I think. One cannot help admitting that they are privileged in the sense of being on their way to au almost certain provision. 9490. There are many advantages enjoyed b^' the collegers during the time that they are at school, would you not abolish those ? — No. 9491. You mean then that you would do away with the ulterior .advantages ? — No ; in a great public school like Eton I do not see the object of having two systems, one for the collegers and one for the oi)]>idans. I would rather not have it connected with a place like King's. I think that to draw Eton masters so much from King's as has been the case is a bad thing, I had rather they wore oppidans. 9492. You are speaking solely of what is beyond the school. You do not object to the foundation in tola ? — For my own part I had rather there were no foundation class. Ilowever that is merely a private opinion of my own. I think the disadvantages almost counterbalance the advantages. 9493. {Sir S. Xorthcnte.) In connection with the fagging do you think that the relations of the sixth form to the rest of the school are such as are ruost desirable, or do you think that anything like a more systematic monitorial system would be desirable ? — No, certainly not. I object to the monitorial system as at Harrow and other schools. I wish to state, what some people are not aware of — that there is no such thing at Eton, properly speaking, as a monitorial sj'stem, and I wish that what does exist of it were abolished. I would make the privileges of the sixth form merely privileges of exemption and not privileges of power. As long as you have bounds I would ex- empt the sixth form from bounds, as is the case now, but I would not give the sixth form power of setting punishments. 9494. {Lord Li/ftcUon.) Among the oppidans that is nothing practically now ? — They had the power. I remember on one occasion having exercised it, and I always felt ashamed of it. I think it is a mistake. I think myself it is an invidious privilege, and that schoolboys are not fit persons to be entrusted with the exercise of power, and as to the monitorial system as practised at Winchester, as I have heard Winchester men speak of it, of the system of enabling these boys to cane and punish other boys, it is jjcrfectly outrageous. A brother of mine who was in the army told me that on one occasion when his regiment was quartered at Winchester he went to see some fellows in the school. He went to some of the fellows' rooms — they were monitors of the sixth form — and to show their power they did that which we read of in Persian story where the Grand Vizier calls up somebody and says " Have not I power to cut your head off ?" and he says " Cer- tainly, if your highness pleases." These Vjoys not only did that, but they exercised it. They had a fellow up Qq 30G PUBLIC SCHOOLS COJQUSSION : — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. ETON. J. Waller, Esq., M.P. 17 March 1863. and flogged him for no crime at all, merely to show their power. My brother was a witness of it. 9495. {Mr. Twisletoti.) How long ago was that ? —That must be 18 years ago. 9496. {Mr. Vaughun.) Have you reason to thmk there have beeu changes since that time ?— I suppose there have beeu. 9497. Have you any means of knowing how the monitorial system at other schools really acts ?— I do not know ; all I mean to say is that as a parent and as an old sclioolboy, knowing perfectly well the feel- mgs of schoolboys, I should object that either of my own boys should either be the subject or the mstru- ment of anything like physical authority over other boys, or legal power of any sort. I say if you have not enough masters, get more ; do not give us the monitorial system. The way in which I should mark a distinction" between the upper boys and the sixth form is to treat them with more confidence, make more friends of them, take them into your confidence, and give them certain privileges in any way you please, and I think that is ilesirable ; it increases their self- respect, but does not give them power. 9498. {Sir S. Northcote.) Having beeu two years captain of the oppidans yourself, is it within your knowledge that the sixth form, without exercising any definite monitorial privileges, had a great influence ou the moral tone of the school and great power of putting down abuse and encouraging what was right ? — Certainly, they could do a great deal in that way. 9499. {Mr. Vaughan.) Do you not conceive that a good general tone in the school, and a certain de- gree of interference at proper times by the Head Master, might establish the monitorial system on a footing which would make it unobjectionable? — I cannot give an opinion on that ; all I say is I do not wish to see it introduced into Eton. I cannot speak from knowledge, I can only speak from what I have heard of its abuse ; I know it has a great many able defenders— I cannot at all say how it works in other places. I do not wish to see in intro- duced into Eton. 9500. (.S'/> S. Northcote.) Do you think that the numbers of the school are too large, or that the school admits of indefinite expansion, or that there should be any limit to it ? — I cannot say what that limit should be. I think that it is not desirable to have a school so very large ; I would rather myself there were not that great demand for Eton which there is. I think that 600 is a more manageable number than 800, but if you ask me what limit I would fix that is very difficult to say. 9501. (Lord Devon.) I have to ask now a question on another subject. You are aware, no doubt, that the question of the constitution of Eton college, I mean the Provost and Fellows, is often made matter of conversation, and that views have been expressed as to their utility, at any rate in their present shape ; have you any opinion on that point ? — I have never been able to discover what useful function the fellows discharge at Eton as fellows ; it may be necessary to have a provision, something for the masters to look forward to. I was going to say the career of a master of a school is not the best training for a parish priest, but it so happens that all the fellows are parish priests, therefore that remark would not apply. 1 think it would be desirable if you are to have Fellows that they should have definite work, and be without living ; I would rather one of two things, either that the masters should be eligiide to livings without being fellows, or be fellows without holding livings. For instance, there is a fellow who has been lately elected, who I daresay may do very useful work at Eton, I mean as a preacher, and exercise a certain moral influence on the school, that is Bishop Chapman. He is a bishop returned from Ceylon, and he has been elected a fellow ; he has had all the experience of a master, and is a very good and able man, but I think he ought not to hold a living ; I do not know that te does, but he ought not to hold one in addition to his fellowship. If he is a fellow he ought to work only as a fellow. There is no doubt the whoU system has been grossly abused. 9502. Following that up, what work would you assign to the fellows ? — Their work used to be chiefly superintending the college part and preaching iu chapel ; they have nothing to do with the oppidans, strictly speaking. 9503. From your own experience and anything you may ha\'e heard from your own boys, do you consider that the system of fellows preaching in chapel is a good one ? — My boys tell me that they like Bishop Chapman's sermons very much, and they think them very good, but many others they would not think the same of ; they would not hear a word of them. 9504. {Mr. Vaughan.) Do you say that they do not even hear them ? — They do not understand them. The whole time I was at Eton I never heard a sermon which was in the least adapted to boys at all. 9505. {Lord Devon.) What would be the effect if not only the Head jSIaster, but the assistant master oc- casionally preached ? — I do not know. As a rule I do not think that a master's influence in the pulpii would be likely to be so great as that of a person who was not actually engaged in teaching, except perhaps the Head Master if he is not brought too much into contact with the boys. 9506. I have no doubt that you are aware that an opinion is sometimes expressed that a master's influence in the school is considerably strengthened by his power of addressing the boys at certain times ? — Yes. 9507. And that both at Winchester and Rugby there are remarkable instances of that ? — No doubt ; for instance Dr. Vaughan, Dr. Arnold, and, I sup])ose. Dr. Mobcrly. At those schools they have not got a system of fellows. 9508. Y^es, at Winchester they have ?— I think it ought to be the fellows' duty, they being men who have beeu masters, and who to a certain extent are not brought into the disagreeable contact with boys which masters are at times. 9509. In the case of the fellows there is probably a gap of greater or less duration between the period of their ceasing to be masters and their coming back as fellows ? — Not always ; they are sometimes appointed as fellows from the school ; generally speaking I should say it was so. 9510. {Lord Lyttelton.) What do you think of the present svstem as to boys going to chapel ? — I think there is room for much improvement in that system, and that many of the holydays and saints days might be dispensed with. You have St. Patrick's day and St. David's day, and things of that sort, which I think are al.mses altogether — relics of a time which we do not want to see back. 9511. Would you like to see a daily service sub- stituted? — Yes; for instance, on a whole holyday to have two services is a great absurdity in my opinion ; it is making chapel into a mere means of passing the time, in fact. 9512. Do you think that the boys are fond of the choral service iu chapel ? — Y''es ; I would not do away with the choral service. It is very suitable for boys, and they behave very well; very differently from what they used to do. 9513. {Mr. Thortipson.) Do you think it would be possible to induce the boys to join in the chanting to any great extent ? — Some boys do. There is more music taught now than there used to be. I should be glad to see it done. 9514. Do you or do you not think that the existence of a choir stands in the way of congregational sing- ing ? — I think it does. I think it is so at every church. 9515. You do not approve of a separate choir as an adjunct to a school ? — Not as an adjunct. 9516. {Mr. Vaughan.) Should you object to a more general teaching of music and drawing for a school like Eton ? — I should not. I do not know about drawing, because I suppose it is a very peculiar taste. Some boys would not make anything of it, others PUBLIC SCHOOLS COMMISSION: — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 307 would almost draw uatimdly, wilhout being taught. Miific in (he same way. I think it is very desiiahle wluTO it can be done that boj's should bo taught music before they go to Eton. 9517. Would it not be necessary to keep it up lliei-e ? — Still those things must be extras, you cannot help that. If you medu to teach everything 3'ou must have a good many extras. 9518. {Lord Devon.) In the course of the evidence which we have taken, it has been suggested that there should be an infusion of the lay element in the Provost and fellows, that the Provost should be a layman some- times ? — There is no reason whj' it should not be. I think Wootton was a layman. I think you want more laymen altogether. Some of the masters are laymen. 9519. {Mr. Thompson.) With regard to the Head Master, what should you think ? — I would ratlier he was a clergvman and an Eton man. Amongst other questions I hav-e heard it mooted whether you should not throw open the whole thing. I thiidc I would throw open the choice of Eton masters to all Eton men, but I should not like to see a foreign element introduced into Eton amongst the masters. I should not like to introduce masters who had been brought up at other schools. I think there is a great deal in keeping up the traditions of any school. I slmuld not like to see Winchester or H arrow men made masters of Eton. 9520. {Mr. Twislcton.) Would you carry out the same rule at Rugby and Harrow, that the Head Master of Rugby should be a Rugby man, and educated at Rugby, and that at Harrow the Head Master should be educated at Harrow, necessarily ? — I do not know what the traditions of the school are. I should not like to apply the same rule to other places. 9521. Are you aware whether the traditions of Rugby have been prejudicially broken down in the last 30 years, or whether the school has been improving ? — I do not know. I am not accjuainted with Rugby. 9522. You are, i)erhaps, aware that the head masters have not been Rugby men ? — No. 9523. And that as a mere matter of fact the ex- cellence and the reputation of the school has very greatly increased during the last 30 years ? — There is this great difference between Eton, Harrow, and Rugby. The head masters of Harrow, and I think of Rugliy also, both take boarders. The Head Master of Harrow takes boarders in his house. He has a great deal to do, individually, with a great number of boys. The Head Master of Eton takes no boys. He has veiy little to do with the boys themselves. He has nothing, in fact, except his own class. He is in a very different position from the Head Master of Harrow. He is more like the captain of a ship who delegates the work chiefly to his lieutenants, whereas at HaiTow and Rugby the Head Master is no more than the first of a number of masters, which is not the case at Eton. He selects the other masters, and pays the other masters. I do not know ho^v far that is the case at Harrow, but at Eton the Head Master pays out of his own pocket 40/. a year for every master who is en- gaged, and he has no boarders. He derives his income solely from entrance and annual fees and leaving- money. 9524. Take the element of intellectual power and skill in teaching, is it not desirable that Eton should be abls to secure the individual who has the greatest amount of that ? — I do not think you require the greatest intellectual power to be tlie best master. I do not think the best scholars make the best masters. 9525. In my question I included skill in teaching ? — The best master for Eton is the man who knows most about the Eton system, and who has worked as a master and been accustomed to teach all his life. A head master must have been an Eton man who has been engaged in teaching all his life, and he must Ije entirely acquainted with the whole sj^stem. I have heard men from the bar and other professions sug- gested as head masters for Eton. 9526. Not having been a clergjinan would be a bar M.P. 17 March 1863. to that? — Yes, as the present regulations are that would ETON, be so, but still I have heard that plan suggested. 9527. You do not think that if there was a good •^■Waller.Esq., governing body you might entrust it to them not to make a bad choice of head masters ? — The fellows do choose the master. 9528. But suppose a better governing body were devised for the college ? — I do not see how you are to devise it ; at Harrow you have trustees. 9529. {Lord Devon.) A self-elected body ? — Yes ; I should not like to see it. What you have to do at Eton is to get the best set of masters you can, and to choose the best man of them for a head" master. 9530. Do you consider that the relation of the Head Master to the Provost and Fellows is altogether satis factoi-y ? — I am not very well acquainted how far the Head Master is in the power of the Provost and Fellows ; I am not aware of the exact relations between them. I think the Head Master ought to be absolute in the school as regards the teaching, as regards the education and the work to be done. 9581. Suppose the relation to be such that the Provost and Fellows or the Provost, if so minded (of course I am not speaking of individuals), exercise an influence in preventing improvement, do you think that in order to check that, it might be desirable to alter the constitution of the governing body in an}' way ? — I should simply say I would make the Head Master in the school alisolute as regards the school work ; I would not allow him to be interfered with by the Provost .r.id Fellows. 9532. What would be the effect of giving a more general character to the bddy now called the Provost and Fellows, introducing, (or instance, laymen ?■ — I have never heard any scheme proposed ; I cannot tell how it would work. 9533. At Rugby there is a governing body ? — You know public bodies are liable to quite as great abuses as private corporations in these matters. Every selection made for Rugby and Harrow has not been fortunate. 9534. Supposing lay Etonians were united to the Provost and Fellows, do you consider that that would or would not be useful to the school, or that it would be likely to stand in the way of introducing improve- ments ? — I should rather try and improve the existing body, hoping that in the progress of time the fellows would be a more enlightened body than they were 50 years ago, and that they will keep pace with the general spirit of the age. 9535. You fully recognize the .advantage of having some reward in jirospect for the masters ? — I think it is desii-iible. I think it is a legitimate prize which a master has in view, and I do not see the necessity for destroying it. 953G. {Lord Lyttelton.) It is an advantage to him to be able to be more liberal in his general expendi- ture ? — I think so. 9537 {Sir S. Xorthcote.) Having reference to the importance of choosing a good master when there is a vacancy, do you think there would be any advantage in enlarging the numbers of the governing body, and a little altering its constitution so as to let in" some- thing more of the lay element ? — I should not finicy a governing body unless the governing body had some definite work comiected with the school, and it was the interest of the governing body in some way to select the best men. I do not see how you can secure that interest unless they are practically connected with the school. The fellows have an interest in selecting the best men, and I ovni I tliink they have exercised their choice rightly. I think in the" last instance they probably made the best choice they could under the circumstances. It seems to me you have got this .security: the Head Master appoints the under masters, and his interest is to get the best staff he can. If he is a sensible man he will get the best stai!' he can to help him. These men gradually rise to be fellows. They have been all through the school ; they know the working of it, and out of that body they will have the choice of the future head master. It seems to me Qq2 303 PUBLIC SCHOOLS COMMISSION : — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. ETON. J. Waller. Esij, M.P. 17 March 18«3. tluit no ai-rnnjtoment ynu can ni:ike will secure better iiuicliiiioiy for electing a good head master. I have lieard remarks made about the selections at Rugby, in spite of its being a popular body which elects, not having always been successful, being exiiosed to more jo!)licr}' and f'avouritisim than would lie the case if the election of head master was with the fellows. 9538. {A Commissioner.) Should you not say on the whole that the selections of the Rugby head masters were as good as they could be ?— Tliey were, but in my time there have been only four head masters of Eton. I went down to Eton in 1828, which was during the latter end of Dr. Keate's regime. He had been Head Master for a number of years, and certainly, in spite of certain iaults, he was a great Head Master in his way. Dr. Ilawtrey succeeded ; he was there 18 years ; Dr. Goodford was there 11 years, and Mr. Baiston has just succeeded. There were very few witliin that period. Within the same time tiiere have been Dr. Arnold (I do not know who preceded him), Dr. Tate, Dr. Gouldburn, and the present Head Master. 9539. (Lord Lyttelton.) Has it occurred to you that exhibitions confined to the oppidans, to be held at the school would have a good effect on them ? — I do not know, I am not very much in favour of exhibitions myself. 9540. But any prizes or encouragements confined to the oppidans ? — I do not think so. 9541. (Mr. Thompson.) You seem to think that the only remedy for the idleness of the oppidans would be to abolish the collegers ? — No, I do not think so at all. I do not think the oppidans are more idle, but the collegers get a larger proportion of reading boys. Formerly, when getting into college was a mere matter of favouritism, you had 70 boys who ■\^ere the same as the others, but now you have the pick of the school. 9542. You cannot suggest any remedy short of that violent one ? — No, except punishment, and that does not always answer. 9543. Sometimes encouragement does ? — I do not know. 9544. Do you think emulation has no effect ? — There is emulation enough. A boy, for instance, takes places in the school, that is emulation. It is a great object for a boy to get to the head of his class. You have trials also ; I do not think you want more emulation than that. A boy takes places, and gets all the credit due to that from his parents and from the masters. It is a distinction for a boy to be the head of his class. There was an immense dealofemulation in my time in Chapman's division. There was a sj-stem of taking places from top to bottom. The thing was well worked, and so it might be now. I do not think there is a want of emulation, nor do I complain, as far as my own knowledge goes, of the want of the disposition to work in the school. 9545. {Mr. rauff/imi.) Do you not think it rather a failing in the Eton system that, when a boy in his division has once established a superiority over those in the particular division with him, that there his incite- ments to further work in great part cease ? — That was not the case when I was at Eton, in one particular part of the school, in the present ]3ishop Chapman's division. He allowed no fixity of tenure at all, and he vi'orked his division so that a boy at the top to-day might be at the bottom to-morrow. 9546. I mean that tliey move up so regularly in the school that a boy is generally with the same companions throughout the school, and that therefore, if he proves himself superior to those, it is not easy for him to find new competitors ? — Yes, I do not quite know how the system is worked now. 9547. {Sir S. Northcote.) Mr. Vaughau refers to the system of removes. If a boy keeps in the same remove all the way up he does not measure his strength with other boys ? — He does with regard to trials. 9548. In his own remove, but not with the boys in the remove above him ? — No, he may take a double remove. Two of my own boys have taken double removes in that way. They have jumped over one remove. 9549. {Mr. Vnughan.) You think that answers all the purpose ? — It answers all the purpose, certainly. I do not see any objection if you choose to have prizes for special things. You have a system at Eton called " sending up." You send up a boy for good verses. You might apply that to composition of any kind. I see no objection to that. At present a boy may be sent up for good, as it is called. For every three times he is sent up he gets a mark put to his name, which appears in the Eton list. That is a distinction which boys are proud of, and it helps to encourage com- petition. I am not aware that there is any want of a stimulus of that sort. 9550. {Lord Devote.) Is there any other point on which you wish to make an observation ? — No, I think not. Victoria Street, Tuesday, 28th April 1863. PRESENT : >*. L. P. Lyhbe, Esq., M.P. R. Stacker, Esq. 28 April 1863. Eaul of Clarendon. Earl of Devon. Lord Lyttelton. Sir Stafford Nortiicotk, Bart. H. Halford Vaugii,an, Esq. The earl OF CLARENDON in the Chair. Philip Lydde Powrs Lybbe, Esq., M.P., and Richard Stocker, Esq., M.R.C.S.E., examined.* 9551. {Lord Clarendon to Mr. Poicys^ I believe you had a son at Eton ? — Yes. 9552. You have had occasion to remove him from Eton in coiisequence of some ill treatment ? — Yes. 9553. And you wish to make some statement to the commission upon that ? — Yes. 9554. Will you have the goodness to make that statement ?— I sent my boy to Eton after the Easter holidays in 1861 to Mr. Wolley's house ; Easter was very early that year and consequently the summer half was very long. I went to see him on the 4th of June and I saw that the boy was considerably altered in appearance and look. A few days after the 4th of June, the boy was taken ill of the measles, and as soon as I heard of it I went down to see him ; I found *_ Mr. Lybbe had addressed a letter to the Commissioners stating that he was anxious to be examined respecting the treatment which his sou had undergone at Eton. him in his room. The doctor attended him sometimes, and he got better, and after that he went home for a change of air. They (the people at home) found cer- tain marks about his legs. He did not say anything then ; he passed it ofl', and did not make any complaint then, and towards the end of the sunnner holidays it came out that he had been grievously ill-treated in Mr. Wolley's house. While he was lying sick on his bed with the measles a boy came into the room and hit liim on the head. It was towards the end of the sum- mer holidays, about the end of August. As soon as I heard that I found out that he had been very much bullied, and I wrote to Mr. Wolley, who was then in Scotland. I mentioned the name of the boy who had hit him on the head, and the names of other boys who had bullied him, because they had bullied him systemati- cally. Mr. Wolley said, he should write to the boys' fathers, and I believe he did ; at least he told me he did, and certainly one boy, the boy who had liit him on PUBLIC SCHOOLS COMMISSION : — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 309 Ihe head wliea lie was ill with the measles, JiJ amend his ways, and never did bully him any moie. 1 will give the boy that credit, but the other bullying contiuued. 9555. When he went back in the autumn ? — Yes, it continued all the autumn half. I can mention names, but I do not partieularly wish to. Then he came home for the Christmas holitlays down to us in the Isle of Wight, and there the boy was very poorly. He went back after the tJhristmas of 1862, and then very fortu- nately St. Matthias' day came on a Monday. My wife and I were then in lodgings at Upper Seymour Street, and the Saint's day coming on a Monday I got him leave from Saturday to ISIonday to come up to town. The boy came up on the Saturday and I walked with him on Sunday in tlu^ afternoon to see my friend Mr. Stoeker, wlio has attended the bay since he was born. I did not see him on Sunday because he was out, but he came by appointment the next Monday. That is my statement ; now perhaps you will allow Mv. Stoeker to take it up. {3/r. Stacker.) I liave been accustomed to see Mr. Powys's son from time to time, and although ho was perhaps never very strong yet he enjoyed good health; I should say as good health as most boy.s. I saw him at the time Mr. Powys has mentioned, and I was struck with his countenance. There was a scowl about his countenance, and he was an altered boy,. I told Mr. l'ow3's I thought in some way or other he had become unequal to lie in a public scliool, and I advised ]Mr. Powys to take him away from Eton, at any rate for a time. 9556. Was that only with reference to his appear- ance ? — From his appearance. There was a peculiar irritability, and he appeared as if his brain ])ower had been exhausted. He could not bear the noise of his little brothers and sisters. Everything seemed to irritate him, aixd he seemed unable to meet even the little occurrences of the day. Everything seemed to annoy him, just like an old worn-out man. Two davs before Ash Wednesday I saw him, and thought him so ill that I said to Mr. Powys, " You had better let me take " him to Dr. Fergusson." We went to Dr. Fergusson, and he said '• If 3'ou do not take that boy away from " Eton he will have epilepsy or some grievous evil, " and he must perhaps remain perfectly quiet as to " study and as to the routine of a school for a year " or 18 months before he will be able in any way to " resume his studies." 9557. {Sir S. Norfhcotc.') Had he been back to Eton between the 24th of February and the 4th of March ? — {Mr. Powi/s.) No. 9558. {Lord Clarendon to Mr. Potcys.) You acted on Mr. Stocker's recommendation not to send him back ? — Certiiiidy. I said, " He camiot lie looked after there ; " at least he will :iot be ; now we have got him we " will keep him. {Mr. Slacker.) At the same lime it was very much against Mr. Powys's wish that he should be taken from Eton. (Mr. Powi/s.) Yes. {Mr. Stacker.) I saw if he went back to Eton there would be some trouble. I could not tell what might happen. His nervous system seemed completely bVoken do^^l. 9559. {Lord Clarendon.) How old is he ? — {Mr. Poicys.) Ho will be fifteen on the twelfth of next month. 9560. What part of the school was he in ? — The upper remove, fourth form. 9561. How far, Mr. Stoeker, do you connect this great change which had taken place in young Mr. Powys with the bullying to which he had been sulject ? — {Mr. Stacker.) Young Powys is a sensitive boy, and anything of that kind would militate very much against his general health. I should think he had quite recovered from the effects of the measles. I do not think there was anything to damage his constitution from the attack of measles which he had, and it appears that he became such an altered boy after he had been a short time at Eton. 9562. Would you attribute the change you observed in him to the excitement of a public school and the ETON. Esq. M.P, Ji. Stacker, Esq. novelty of it or to any ill treatment he received there Can you connoet the ill treatment directly with the change in his appearance .and constitution? — I think P.L. P. Lybbe, we sliould very seldom find that a boy sent to a public school would get that scowl of countenance which he had. He had a peculiar lowering countenance, which he had not before. I should think the routine of a as April 1863. school would scarcely bring that on. ___^__ 9563. Should you say that that change of counte- nance arose from moral or phjsical causes. Was he unwell or unhappy ? — He was unwell. He was re- duced in power, very essentially. He was exceed- ingly weak ; so that if anything very exciting occurred in the day, he would liecome sick, and be obliged to go to bed. 9564. {Lard Lyttcltan.) Had he been doing well iu the school work ? — {Mr. Powys.) Yes ; he liad a very good character indeed from the tutor, and I can bring yon the tutor's letters. 9565. {Lord Clarendon.) Of course, you have questioned him a good deal about it. Did he appear to be unhapp}' in consequence of this ill-usage ?— Certainly. Tlie boy's life was made miserable. 9566. Did he dislike to return to Eton ? — No ; he wanted to go back, of all things. He did not volun- teer it to me ; on the eoutrary. 9567. {L^ord L.,yttclton.) How many bovs were there who were in the habit of bullying him 'i — I will say three. 9568. You mentioned one specific act. A boy came in, and hit him on the head. Do you Nvish to mention any other specific acts of bullying ? — One fellow used to kick him whenever he went in to the tutor's dinner every day. 9569. (.S'(> S. Xorthcote.) Was that the cause of the marks that were noticed on the legs, do you think ? — I cannot say that. I did not see the marks. In fact, I did not know anj-thing about it till the end of the summer holidays, and then it came out that they had found his legs all covered with bruises. {Mr, Stoeker.) I think the state of the boy was such that anybody who had got an eye for the health of the boy would have seen it. I should have thought so. If I had had the boy living under my roof, I think I should have seen the altered character of the boy. 9570. Did you see him after he came back, after having had the measles ? — I did not. 9571. You had not seen him from the time he had the measles till February? — He had not to my recol- lection been brought under my notice. {Mr. Powys.) I do not recollect whether Mr. Stoeker did see him ; very likely he did. If the boy had been in town with me, very likely I should take him to pay a friendly visit. 9572. {^[r. Vdinjhan.) I presume, Mr. Stoeker, you have knowledge of the constitution of boys at the age of young JNIr. Powys derived iiom long experi- ence ? — {3Ir. Stacker.) I have been in practice nearly 40 years. 9573. In the course of that time, have you known cases of boys showing the same decline of power about the same time of life ? — Yes ; I may have seen boys growing into manhood showing it, but not alterino- so much as to countenance. 9574. Have you ever known any to alter so much as you thought young Mr. Powys to alter about that time, and have known at the same time that they can have received no ill-treatment ? — I think there has always been .some illness preceding. I know that in the autumn of last year, after he had been aw.ay from school six months after some excitement, I was dining with him, he became sick at dinner and was obliged to go to lied. 9575. Do you think that might have been the result of any simple change in the constitution, or at any rate might be consistent with his not having been ill-treated by anybody ?— It is a very difficult question to answer, and I do not think that any medical man could take upon hunself to answer it. 9576. {T.ard L.yttcltonta Mr.Powijs.) Did you ob- "Qq3 310 PUBLIC SCHOOLS COMMISSION -.— MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. ETON. P. L. P. Lybbe, Esq., M.P. It. Slacker, Esq. ' 28 April 1863. serve hiu\ iii tliose summer holidays to be out of spirits ? I never saw such a change in any boy in my life. He was like a different boy in every respect. He had a scowl on his face. Previously to that he had the most open brow that ever was. When he was with our friend Mr. Goldney at Tunbridge Wells, preparing for Eton, the boy was as happy as the day was long. 9577. (Mr. Vaughaii.) Did he ever tell you whe- ther this boy alleged any reason for kicking him ? — Boys will bi' bullies ; you know that as well as I do. 9578. I know that in general ; but in reference to this particular l)oy I know nothing, and therefore ask whether he alleged any reason or pretext according to your son's account of the matter ? — The boy alleged no pretext at all. 9579. {Lord Lytfclton.) Are you awai-e whether he ever applied toone of the upper boys or to anyone for protection. Did he apply to the captain of the house ? — It was of no use if he did. The captain of that house was no use. 9580. Did he not preserve order ? — No. There was no order in the house at all. 9581. Did he ever apply to the master of the house, Mr. Wolley ? — No. My boy would not tell tales. 9582. Did you understand when you sent him to Eton that the captain of the house or any sixth form boy in the house would be expected to prevent bullying ? — -Your lordship knows when we were at Eton things were rather ditferently managed to what they are now. 9583. Yes, but I mean now?— I expected when I sent him to Mr. Wolley that Mr. Wolley would at least have introduced him to some boys of his own age in the house. He did not introduce him to a soul. 9584. I meant to the upper Ijoys. — The captain of the house ? 9585. Yes ; or if there were more than one sixth form in the house ? — I do not know. I was very ill myself when lie went to Eton, and I do not know whether there was a sixth form boy in the house. I dare say there was. 9586. Did you think he would look to his fag master as any protection against bullj'ing ? — No. 9587. Do you think that if the captain of the liouse had been a better boy he would have been of any use to him in that way ? — I was captain of my dame's house, and if I had heard of this sort of thing going on I should have put a stop to it at once. 9588. {BIr. Vaughan.) Do you think the captain of the house knew this ? — That I cannot tell. 9589. Do you think it very well might have hap- pened that the captain did not know it ? — I think it could not have happened without his knowing it. Lord Lyttelton knows the house ; it was Mr. Chapman's old house. There were those long passages, and the poor boy was kicked all along those passages. 9590. {Lord Clareiidon.) That could not have been systematically done in the way you describe without the captain of the house knowing it sooner or later ? — I have no doubt it was known. 9591. {Lord L^yttelton.) Had this boy who struck him while in bed any spite against him ? — Not that I know of ; but I will say for that boy that after my complaint to Mr. Wolley, and after Mr. Wolley had -ttTitteu to the boy's father, the boy never bullied my boy again. If I might make an observation, I think it shows the necessity of there being in every tutor's house a sort of hospital ward where boys might be put out of the way when tlioy have the measles or any thmg of that sort. 9592. That is not the case at Mr. Wolley's ?— No, he was in his own room. 9593. There are sick rooms in other houses ? — There was not there. There was a double room on the right-hand side going up one of the stairs which would be a capital place for it. I should beg to say I think thtr -' ought to be one in every house, because they do not send them up to the sanatorium for that sort of thing. It would have been more comfortable. He was there with the measles in his own room without anything very convenient. If there had been a hos- pital ward, or whatever they like to call it, for this sort of thing, it would not have occurred. 9594. {Lord Clarendon.) Will you have the good- ness to tell us what course you took with Mr. Wolley when you determined on not sending your boy back again ? — I wrote to Mr. Wolley to say that by the advice of Mr. Slocker, my medical adviser, I should withdraw the boy from Eton. 9595. {Lord Lytteltov.) That was about the middle of March 1862 ? — No ; we g.ave him some time. We did not make up our minds till what would have Ijeen the end of the Easter holidays — just before the last summer half. We wanted to give him as much time as possible to see if there was a chance of being able to send liim back ; but I found there was no chance, and Mr. Stocker advised me to take him away ; in fact Mr. Stocker said to me after- wards, " Mr. Powys, you did quite right in taking " yuur lioy away ; for if you had not done so, if you " had sent him back again to Eton, I am quite posi- " tive you never would have seen him alive again in " this world." 9596. Has he done well since ? — Ho has not been able to do anything except amuse himself. He cannot look into a book. 9597. You have not sent him to any other school ? — Ask Mr. vStocker ; I have obeyed his orders and have not sent him anywhere. 9598. {Mr. Vaughan.) Had you to question him to elicit from him the ill-treatment he had received ? —Yes. 9599. Do you know at all to what to attribute his willingness to go back to school ? — Because he wanted to be an Eton boy lilve his father. 9600. And that weighed with him against the effects of any ill-treatment he had received ? — He would have put up with it if he could. He did not want to leave Eton ; no boy would. 9601. {L^ord L^yttelton.) What did you do when you determined not to send him back ?— I wrote to Mr. Wolley on account of the boy's health, and he wrote to me to say that he had he.ard a boy had been removed from his house on account of ill-ti'eatment, and he supposed it was my boy. 9602. {L.ord Clarendon.) In writing to Mr. Wolley to say you would not send your boy back again, you did not say anything about ill-usuage, you merely said on account of ill-health ? — I have got the letter, I can bring you the letter ; I attributed it certainly to ill- health as the proximate cause of his removal, brought on by the ill-usage. 9603. I only want to know whether Mr. Wolley was made aware by you of the ill-usage ? — Yes ; because I had complained to Mr. Woolley, and Mr. Wolley had complained to the boys' fathers. He said he heard through the Head Master that a boy had been taken away from his house on account of ill-treatment. I wrote a letter to Mr. Wolley, saying that certainly that was a fact, and there tlie correspondence closed. 9604. {Lord L.yttelton.) You heard nothing more from him ? — No. 9605. {L^ord Clarendon.) And you have no direct means of knowing what course Mr. Wolley took about either discovering who were the boys or what they actually did to your son ? — I told him the names of the three boys. He wrote to the father of one, and the father of that one blew his son up handsomely, and the boy never bullied my boy again. I give the boy the credit of that. Then, I wvote to him about the other lioys, and he said he would write to their fathers, but it still went on, and since my last letter as to the withdrawal of inj' son, I have had no more communica- tion with Mr. Wolley, and hope I never shall again. 9606. Should you say, Mr. Stocker, that the state to which young Mr. Powys was reduced was brought about by any moral cause, such as unhappiness at the way at which he was treated, or was it from the phy- sical effects of ill-treatment ? — {Mr. Stocker.) I should think a great deal was mental ; a great deal plainly preyed upon his mind. I should say there had been PUBLIC SCHOOLS COMMISSION: — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 311 something wliicli weiglied upon his mind from the chauce of spirits. He was weak as to tiody, but there ■was also an altered countenanee. 9607. Like a sensitive boy irritated by a sense of ill-usage ? — It struck me so. 9608. {Lord Lyttelton.) Perhaps it would not be a good thing for your boy to appear before us ? — (Mr, Powys.) I should not like him to do it. (Mr. Stacker.) He is very sensitive. He has a private tutor, wlio rides about with him and looks after his health more than after his instruction. Per- haps he reads an hour or two in the course of the day. 9609. {Sir S. Northcote.) Do you think ho had been at all overworked in school work ; do you think that had anything to do with the state he was in ? — {Mr. Powys.) No ; he was perfectly up to his school work. 9610. {Lord Lytteltoti.) Was he an ambitious boy ? — He would have liked to have been as good an oarsman as his father, perhaps. I do not suppose I cared very much about liis being a great scholar. He always liked to do liis best, and he always got a very good cliaracter from his tutor. 9611. {Sir S. Northcote.) He did not complain of the work as being too hard ? — No. I think, if 30U will allow me to suggest it, I might bring him to you some day, and you raiglit talk to him, if you will, as the representative of the Royal Commission. It would be too much excitement for him to come here. 9612. {Lord Lyttelton.) Was he fond of his games at school ? — He wanted to play football and cricket, but they bullied him so. 9613. {Sir S. Northcote.) Was he growing very- fast ? — Not particularly fast. Ho is growing very fast now. 9614. {Lord Clarendon.) Had you seen any evi- dence, Mr. Stocker, of this nervous sensibility before he went to school ? — {Mr. Stocker.) No. I should say he was not more nervous than other youths. 9615. There "was nothing which would make you anxious about his going to a public school ? — Nothing at all. 9616. Or which rendered him unfit for the con tingencies there ? — No ; he might have been a boy who was sensitive in feeling, and might have been very much upset about it. 9617. {Sir S. Northcote.) I daresay you have observed that after measles, boys are very seriously deranged in their health tor some time ? — Yes. 9618. Do you think there was more in this case than would be accounted for by the illness alone ? — I think so, and besides that there were the holidays. He had had the midsummer holidays to recruit in. {Mr. Poivys.) He was in the Isle of Wight, sailing about with me all the time. 9619. {Sir S. Northcote.) Have you known cases, Mr. Stocker, in which the health of a boy for a year or more after he has had the measles has been seri- ously different from what it was before ? — {3Ir. Stocker.) Yes, decidedly. 9620. From no other cause ? — I never heard from ETON, my friend Powys ho had been so upset with the measles, or that the measles had been of a serious character. — {Mr. Powys.) It struck me that the boy was altered on the 4th of June, and my impression was confirmed when he came back for the midsummer holidays. 9621. {Lord Clarendon.) Is there anything more 28 April 1863 you wish to say to us? — {Mr. Powys.) I think not, — my Lord. P. L. P. Lyhbe, Esq., M.P. if. Slacker, Esq. Correspondence on the foregoing Evidence. The Secretary to Rev. C. Wollev, Eton College. Pubhc Schools Commission, Sir, _ 2, V'ictoria Street, S.W., ll.'th May 18()3. I SEND you, by the direction of the Commissioners, a copy of evidence given before them by Mr. Powys Lybbe, and Mr. Stocker, tlie medical man who attended his son. The Commissioners desire me to inform you that should you wish to make any observations upon this evidence, or any statement in answer to it, they will give you the opportunity of doing so either in writing or vird voce, as may be most agreeable to you. I am, &c. (Signed) Mountague Bernard. The Rev. Chas. Wolley to the Commissioneks. Eton College, My Lords and Gentlemen, 21st May 1863. Knowing from what I observed of young Powys's character during his first school-time, that he was a hkely boy to meet with annoyance from his school-fellows at a public school, and hax'ing found out from his father, in answer to my inquiries, that he did receive such an- noyance, I took every means in my power to prevent it. The only act of bullying which Mr. Lybbe ever specified to me I dealt with as a most serious offence. I repeatedly remonstrated with the other t%vo boys accused, who had done nothing I could punish, and endeavoured thi'ough their parents, and through the upper boys in the house, to make them more considerate towards Powys, and I had reason to believe that I had succeeded. I feel sure that a care- ful examination of the upper boys then in my house would convince you that answers y57!'-9SyO, might con\ey an unfair impression. I think it due to these boys, who all bore a very high character in the school, to make this remark. Po^vys was at Eton for ten months. In several letters written to me during the last three months of this time, Mr. Lybbe made no allusion to any ill-treatii,ent received by his son. He left in March 1862. Between that time and June I had at least three letters from Mr. Lybbe, in none of which he made any allusion to it. In the middle of June 1862, having heard a report that a boy had been obhged to leave my house in consequence of ill-treatment, I wrote to Mr. Lybbe, and was told by him that his son's illness, in the opinion of the medical man, had been caused by ill-treatment received at Eton. In reply I expressed regret that he had not thought proper to infoim me of it. I am, &c. (Signed) Charles Wolley. Qq^ ETON. ETON. ANALYSIS OF THE EVIDENCE. *,* The Names of the Witnesses are in Alphabetical Order. The Figures refer to tlie Numbers of the Questions in the Minutes of Evidence.] AINGEll, ARTHUR CAMPBKLL, Esq., page 279. Was on the foundation of Eton for seven years; is now at Trinity College, Cambridge ; was elected a colleger from a private tutor's; 8(;'J9-8(T:i7, Relations between collegers and oppidans ; in the Lower School, not friendly ; in the Upper, friendly; 8G36-S()'16. Classical superiority of the collegers admitled by the oppidans ; not so in mathematics ; examinations confined to collegers ; 8(;47. Newcastle scholarship ; boating; 8638-87:12. The larger poriion of those who get into the college have not been oppidans ; 8733-8735. Lodgings in college ; diet ; (ires ; 8736-8747. Monitorial system ; duties ofmaidtors; punisiiinents inflicted by Sixth Form IToys ; the system is popular ; 87-18-8791. Bullying not much practised ; 8748-8797. Tutori.al system ; 8798-880,5. Studious liabits of collegers; examinations fur King's College ; studies ; 8806- 8847. Relationsof collegers to Masters; 8848-8850. Modern languages, &c. ; 8851-8853. Cricket, play hours ; E85-)-8868. Shirking; 8867-8874. Considers that the time he passed at Eton was spent advantageously; would wish modern lan- guages to be more attended to; 8S75-8877. BALSTON, Kev. E., M.A., page 96. Has been Head Master of Eton School since February last ; was a Fellow of ihe College at the time of his election ; was previously an Assistant Master for a period of 20 years ; 3005- 3009. Considers it very advantageous for the Head Master to confer with the Provost and Felloe's as to any alteration to be made in the management of the School ; does not recollect an instance in which the Provost put his veto on what the Mead Master wisiied to accomplish ; the intUience exercised over the School by the Provost is very benelieial ; the Fellows are liable to he summoned fiom their livings for College business ; anything which the Head IMaster represents to tlie College as coming from the body of i\[asters is listened to with great con- sideraticm by the Provost and l<"ellous ; thiid^s that a man who has reasonable confidence in himself and iias the confidence of the parents of the boys in the School woidd not feel incon- veniently fettered or controlled by the influence of the Provost and Fellows; if it was considered necessary to introduce a particular book Into the College, he would only have to tell the Provost and it would be done, iniless there were very grave reasons against it ; 3010-3036, and 3122-3128. New books or new editions of books cannot be introduced >vilhout consent of Provost and Fellows; 30;>7-3041. Does not think tlie Eton gramm.ir so good as it was before tlie late Provost made a revision during his Head Mastership from 1834 to 185:i ; 3052-3062. Otiier books; 3063-3067, and 3120,' 3121. Cases in which the Provost has interfered, the Rlonteni and the Christopher ; 3069-3073. Some of the books revised by the Provost were not improved; 3074. Thinks it much better for extract hooks to he used than for tlie boys to read the classical authors through, as the extract books are most likely to form a tasle in a boy's mind for the classics; 3075- 3081. Duly of Piovost and Fellows; 3083-3090. Does not consider that a Provost could fulfil his important duties if he had not had some experience in tuition ; 3051. Head Master consults I'rovost hetore awarding great punishment to a boy on the Foundation ; 3092-3 101 . The connexion of a Fellow with the discipline and allidrs of the College must interfere w illi bis parochial duties; 3102-3104, and 3107,3108. Punisliments; 3109-3119. Religious training ; the sermons preached in the chapel have an influence on the boys; the pulpit is exclusively reserved for the Provost and Fellows ; Head Waster is occa- sionally invited to preach there, but has no riglit to preach ; Dr. Arnold's system and sermons ; thinks the result at Eton preferable to tlio result at Harrow ; 3124-3137. Believes that if the Head .blaster preached oftener it would have a beneficial eft'ect on the hoys; he can now pre.ach as often as he wishes ; does not tliink an occasional sermon by an ."Visislant Master would be of much use, but would not object to it; 3138-3142. Considers that Dr. Arnold had a special power of influenciiH' the boys ; sermons should be delivered by those who understand the boys' characters well ; Assistant Masters are most closely and constantly in connexion with the boys; 3143-3148. Thinks Ihe privilege of preaching not really desirable; S119, 3150. Did not wish to preach Hhen he was .Assistant Mas- ter; 3151. Tlie F'ellows should keep up a knowledge of the nature and character of tlie buys ; if (he prrachiiigVere taken away from the Fellows it would diminish tlair interest in the School; 3152-3159 There should be a more regular course of chapel service ; if all the chapel services were to be choral they would he more altraetive ; the choral services are conducted as well as those at St. George's; 3160-3168. There are prayers every morning at the boarding houses, but they arc conductid in a sonicwhat irregular manner; 3169- 3171. Does not think tliere is any considerable number of boys w'lR) spend Snndiiy afternoon "in drinking at inns and Balston, Rev. E., M.A. — coril. public-houses; 3171-3177. Every boy is required to allcnd at cliapel ; if a short choral service in the clupel was per- form.ed every morning about 7 it would have a beneficial effect on the boys ; 3178-3180. When Dr. Goodford was elected Head Master he declined to take the oath by which the Head IMaster is forbidden to claim anything for the instruction of the scholars, and followed the same course in ^vitness*s case ; 3181. Authority for the variation; 3182, 3183. It would be useless to olfer College livings lo Assistant jMasters ; few men now ofier themselves for Fellowships althougli the Fellows have livings as well ; the position of an Eton blaster is so much better in all respects, that in 9 cases out of 10 the offer of a living would not be taken; the work of a Master is very difHcult especially at first, and if a living were offered to a young Master he would jirobabiy take it, and tlie .School would perhaps lose the services of one who would have been a valuable ftla^ter; 3184-31S7. Does not think it would be a good jiiau to annex one of the Fellouships to a Professor- ship ; taking aw-ay the Fellowships wouUl diminish the attrac- tions of the School in the eyes of the best men, who would otherwise come from the Universities to get Assistant Master- ships; 3189, 3190. Does not think that any of the Fellowships coiilrl he made more directly useful to the School ; 3191-3196. When a Fellow is elected he does not consider himself bound to have anything to do with the teaching of the School except jireaehing ; he attends chapel twice a day Avhen he lives near ; the IMasters do not want F'ellouships for emoluments; the boys would miss the Fellowships if they were abolished; 3197-3207. Cannot stale what his own emoluments are; 3208, 3209. Considers that it would be better to make the *' leaving presents" a regular charge ; 3210-3212. Considers that what the boys pay is rjuite enough; 3213,3214. Dr. Goodford reports the annual payments to Head Master from the College at 215/., other advantages 160/., and house rent free ; has not considered w hcllur those emoluments are sufficient; 3215-3219. Stipend of Masters ; the oppidans seem lo pay part of the expenses of the education of the collegers; 3220-3227. Statutable position of Head Master in reference to bis payment ; the present system of payments perfectly fair and equitable ; cost of education, salaries of Masters, &c. ; 3228-3249. Selection of Eton men as Classical Masters vindicated ; 3250-3268. Considers tliat Eton is one of the most progressive schools in the country; 3269, 3270. Tutorial system ; a tutor stands in loco parentis to the boys under his charge ; work of teachers ; general organisation of School ; 3271-3332, and 3386-3395. Monitorial sys- tem ; much modified at Eton ; the success of the system implies a superior moral condition in the School ; 3333- 3351. Tutors' work; 3353, 3354. Lifluence of IMaster on boy's character ; 3355-3359. Power of an ujiper over a lower boy ; 3360-3362. Relations existing between pupils and tutors ; influence of IMaster and influence of private tutor; 3363-3368. Habits of Etonians ; 3369-3371. Boarding houses, number of boarders, &c., i&c. ; 3372-3382. The IMasters find it to be an advantage to know the character and disposition of the boys in his class; the tutor is also of more use to the Master for Ihe same reason ; 3383-3385. Councils of Head and Assistant Masters; the Head Master brings forward a scheme for the benefit of the School that had been proposed by an Assistant IMaster; no periodical meetings; the Head iMasler from want of time is imable to hold long consuliations; 3386-3405. Thinks tliat there area sufficient number of INJasters at Eton ; jiroportion of Masters to boys ; it would be of assistance to the Head Master to have assist- ance in looking over the examination papers ; 3406-3413. It is the custom to call in extra assistants from ]May to the end of July ; 3414-3416. If a number of boys were taken away from a division to form a class for an extra Assistant IMaster, the eUVciive power of that division would be taken aw.ay ; 3417-3419. School discipline and studies; respect shown to Classical and Mathematical Masters out of School ; 3420-3449. Local status of Mathematical and Classical Masters; if a hoy had as much work to do with the Mathematical IMasler as with the Classical Master the former would have just as much influence over him ; 3450-3492, Mathematical Maslcrs' salary higher than Classical Masters ; stipends of Mathematical IMasters, other emoluments, &c. ; 3-193-3507. FVench Masters; present French Master has 77 pupils out of 840 boys at Eton ; French not recognized as being of much importance at Eton ; 3508-3547. School details; modern languages, scientific lectures; 3548-3600. Alnian.ack and time-table ; 3601-3604. Expenses of boat feles ; 3605-3612. Dress, &c. ; 3613-3618. Drill; 3619-3924. Punishments and rewards ; 3625-3632. Eton system ; 3633- 3643. An immense m.ajority of hoys receive private tuition ; Lower School boys receive it in some cases ; 3644-3647. PUBLIC SCHOOLS COMMISSION : ^ANALYSIS OF EVIDENCE, 313 HATCH K LOOK, T., Ivsq., Uegistkak. {Sec Gooi>foiii>, Kev. C. O., page 1 t-^ scy.) KOKINGDON, Viscount, pa;4c 251. Was at Eton five years; is now- at Balliol ; 7-184-7-187. lU'Iations existing between collegers and oppidans ; collegers do not object to wearing the gown ; 7488-75'JO. Power of Sixlli Form boys to inllict punisbmeiit ; niornls ; bullying; la;^s''"S J *''^' ^v^tcin of fagging is jiopiilar at Eton ; 7521- 75(>i), Diet ; 7570-757'.>. Mode of spending Snnciay ; 7580- 7598. Saints' days ; 7300-~f)O5. Sermons ; ^GOG-ldl'J, Contirmation ; Holy Communion ; 7(j1;1~7(>21. Religions instruction ; 7(J22-76"35. Uelations between boys anti their tutors; private work; school studies; jnlzes ; 7622-7772. Hespecl paid to Masters; 77'a-7794. Modern languages; 7795-7S21. Eeclures on niitural scienct; ; 7822-7832. Private reading ; 7833-7835. Libraries ; debating society ; books read by boys ; poets; 7836-7866'. Some tutors give prices to be written for in the holidays; working hours; playing hours ; games; boiitlng expenses ; relations between boaters and cricketers; 7867-7901 ; thinks more Latin jirose should be done, and also more translation fiom English into Greek and Latin ; modern languages are not more esfeemed at <)\ford than at Eton ; does not consider the teaciiing of mathematics effectuai ; moiiern languages might be taught in such a manner as to leave classics the basis of education ; 7902- 7931. Tliinks that there should he a Master to 30 boys ; does not think it would injure the School to enlarge it and increase the number of scholars ; 7932-7936. BROWNING, OSCAR, Esq., 15. A., page 176. Has been a Classical IMaster at Eton rather more than two years ; was on the foundation, and is a Fellow of King's Col- lege ; 5123-5127. Thinks the chajjel services are unsatis- factory ; the boys regard the chapel on week days as so much time deducted from play ; 5 1 28-5 1 34. Would like to see a short choral service among the boys themselves dally after breakfast ; 5135,5136. Thinks the preaching by the Fellows unsatisfictory; 5137,5138. The Head Ma>ter rarely preaches; 5139. Formerly the sermons of tiie Head Master produced great efieet ; 5140, 5141. AssiNtant Masters never preached ; thinks sermons from llu-m would have a gooarIsou with the collegers ; o|>piilans uiL-rely Iiave a pass examination for entrance ; among tlie collegers there is a com- petitive examination ; 5179-5187. The Masters are greatly overworked ; the Masters are occupied 9 or 10 hours a day ; 5188-5192. Describes a remedy ; 5193. Thinks there are not enough Masters ; does not see the good of "construing;" 5193-5213. Recognizes tlie importance of molern lan- guages and history, and sees no insurmountable ditKcnIty in introducing them ; 5214-5216. A French Master cannot keep up discipline ; does not see how French Assistants could take exactly the same position as the Classical Masters ; sugges- tions on the su!>ject ; 5217-5241. Questions as to the Viceroy system (described in the evuleiice of the Rev. E. Coleridge, page 123, qs. 3757-3759), witness expresses his approval of tiie suggestion. Public-houses visited by the boys, especially on Sundays, but not so much as formerly ; there is not imicli drunkenness; collegers seldom go to tlie pidilic-houses ; if the public-houses were prohibited tlicre would be much less drink- ing ; 5243-5266. At football beer is fetched by a man in a can and handed roimd to the boys; 5267-5269. Of Iiis 40 pupils six are collegers ; all pay him 20 guineas ; the money is sent by the dames; if 10 guineas were sent lie should inquire the reason ; 5270-5280. CARTER, Rev. W. A., M.A., page 206. Has been Lower Master of Eton College for six years, and was previously Assistant Master 21 years ; 5864-5866, Con- siders that boys are belter trained in the Lower School than at preparatory schools; 5867,5868. There are boys at Eton as young as 7 ; Mr. Hawtrey's bouse is for the accommodation of these younger boys; 5869. Mr. Geo. Dupuis formerly kept a Lower School house ; 5870. Tutors* houses ; 5871-5884. No limit as to the time a boy can remain in the Lower School ; 5885. A boy must know Greek before he enters the Fourth Form ; 1. Cakteh, Rev. W. A., M.A.— cont. 5886. Advancement of boys in School; 5887-58S9. Their studies ; 5890-5907. All lessons prepared in the pu|)il room ; grammar is learned in the presence of the tutor; 5908-5912. Wishes to extend the Lower School ; 5913. Roys who come from the Lower School are generally more tractable and manageable than those who come prei)ared from other schools ; 5915. Some years ago a difhculty was experienced iu filliii"- the Lower School houses; now the difliculty is to itnd a va- cancy ; 5917. Comfort of the hoys, games, tS:c. ; 5918-590(;, Account of salaries and emoluments ; 5927-593;^. The averaf^e nund)cr of boys iu the Lower School is 120; there are five Masters ; 5939. There is a larger proportion of Masters In the Lower than in the Upper School ; boys in the Lower School require more individual teaching than those in the I'pper School ; a good IMaster \vould liiid no more dilliculty in teacliing 40 than 30 or L'O boys ; 5940-5950, and 5972- 5989. Time given in lessons; 5951-5962. Will endeavour to get a Malhemalical JNIuster who will instiuct all the Lower School in matlicmatics ; 5963. Ik'sldes the four Masters there are seven teachers for writing, arithmetic, and dictation ; wishes the mathematical woik to be carried on in just the same manner as the classical ; 5964-5971. JMethod of teaching and iicaring construing; 5990-600S. Appoints tlie A'-sistant Masters in tlie Luwer School from men who have taken degrees at the I'nivcrslty but who have been educated at Eton ; 6009-6016. The average number of Masters arriving at Eton per annum is two ; 6020-6022. Argues in favour of confining the appointment of Eton IMa.slers to Eton men ; 6015 -6029, and 6050-6058, Drinking on Sunday afternoons at the Tap and the Christopher ; does nut think it Is carried on to a large extent ; does ni?t consider the monitorial system wouKl tend to put a stop to the Sunday aftcrnoini drinking ; a boy woidd be punished if seen coming out of the Tap or the Christopher; 6030 -6041. Has known hoys come to Eton who are said to be able to read Sophocles, and yet do not know a verb; 60-12. All tlie Classical Masters are Eton scholars ; the Mathematical are not generally inferior to the Classical IMasters in intellectual attainments; no Classical i\Iaster would be selected fur the Upper School who had not taken high iionours ; 6043-6048. The Eton boys are the same in their amusements and habits as they were 30 years ago; 6019. Lower Master not allowed to take out-door pupils; rate of ciiargc, and explanation of Its being higher than those of Assistant .Masters ; tlie srhonl crpeiists are the same in the Upper and Lower Schools ; 6059-60(8, and sec 6115-6122. Charges in ihe .Alaihematlcal School; 6069-6071. No Frencli is taught compulsorily in the Lower Sthool ; some learn French and G.rman extra, and go in for the Albirt prize ; 6072-6074. The Lower School do no private buvine>s ; 6075, 6076. In summer boys work ahnost wi'hout intermission — except changing classes, meals, \c — from 7 in the mo-r.ing till 6 at night; recreation, &c.; 6077-6086. IJiet; 6087-6092. Does not consider it a bad plan to mix the boys of diilercnt ages ; limits of age in the Ujiper ami Lower Schools ; 6093- 6l)9S. IMany of the jireparatoty schools seiid up buys who are very ignorant in grammar; 6099-6103, Studies; 6J23-6154, Comniuntcaiiuiis from Lowtr Master to the Provost are made direct, except In llu case of appoinling assi-.iaiits; llie Head INJasler's sanction must he obtained in order to elect an Assistant Alaslcr in (f.e Lower Schoid ; thinks the relations existing between the Lower Master and the Provost arc very wliolesome, and would be sorry to sec them entirely broken ; the Interference of the Provost in minute ihlngs is not desirable, but a check on the Masters is useful; Dr. llawtrey broke up the entire system of the C!oliege in the time of Provost Goodall ; the right of inter- ference in minute points is very little exercised; ('.\r>5-6\63. A new Latin grammar is being prepared; tiiinks Dr. Kennedy's Is the best Latin grammar ; thinks that Provost Hawtiey would not consent to the introduction of Dr. Kennedy's books; 6166 —6172. Has no special system of consulting his Assistants; 6173, 6174. Ailllimetic lias one-flfih of the time devoted to it that classics have; 6175. Does not think too much time is devoted to construing ; 6176-6179, All exercises are looked over double; ihis tends to improve them; 6180-6186. The work of the Flfili Form wants revising; since the introduction of Greek play the boys have been much more interested ; the lower part of the Fifth I'orni have Ui^t enough work ; would wish the Greek play to extend over the whole Form ; 6187- 6198. The I,ovver Scliool do not go to the College ciiapel ; they have a service at the same time in a smaller chapel ; they go tt> the parish chinch of Eton on Sunday; ihey attend chmcli on luilldiys and halfholldays just the same us in the Upper School ; 6199-6202. Prepares the boys living in his house fur confirmation ; 6203, 6204. Religious instruction ; 6205-6216. Each boy in Mr. Hawtrey's house bad a single room ; 6217. Private prayers; 6215-6222. 'The Sunday is properly observed ; 6223. Pimislunents, impositions, corporal punishments; iniuish- ments were of much more frequent occurrence 10 or 20 years ago than now; 6224-6239. Instruction in French by Assistant Master ; 6240-6243. Tutorial Instruction in French ; a b07iu Jjde attempt to teach French properly at Eton has not been made; 6244-6254,6258-6260. Leaviui^ jircsents ; the Lower Master receives no presents from boys going out of the Lowcf School ; the Lower Master does not receive presents like the Head Master, but only as a tutor; 6255-6257. COLERIDGE, Right Hox. Sir JOHN TAYLOR, page 187. In a public school system education and Instruction should be distinguished ; the best teaching is that of the classical lan- guages ; absolute necessity of carrying on concurrently a con- K r KTOX. 314 PUBLIC SCHOOLS COMMLSSION : — ANALYSIS OF EVIDENCE. ETON. CoLERinoR, Rt. Hon. Sir J. T — cont. sidcr.iblc amount of speci.il instruction; regards natural lustory, mathematics, ami so on as essential ; wouUI add French or Ger- man, and some amount of music and drawing. Would not try at Eton to make a perfect soldier or a perfect doctor, or anything of the kind. I ut would bring tlie boy's mind into such a state tliat he should be more ready to embrace the more perfect knowledge which would be given to him afterwards. Would make scholarship as jicrfect as possible, and carry on those other collateral branches of education by economy of lime in the mode of teaching. Would diminish tl)e" number of boys in classes, also wh.at is called "construing," and have a second " play " class taken by the Lower lALister. Describes " play." Would make the rewards extend to accurate and elegant construing as well as composition; 5418-5420. Regards " derivations" as a waste of time. Believes classical work at Eton is more diffused than . formerly, and that it is carried higher and embraces a larger range of books, but doubts whether the best boys are better scholars; thinks that they do not write as good Latin verses as formerly ; but they now wr ite Greek iambics, which formerly were nearly omitted ; thinks there is hardly any limit to what a boy can acquire concurrently in the shape of languages; does not think too much can be imposed on the mind if care he taken not to impose loo much on the body; 5421-5459. Sees no objection to a matriculation examination for public schools which should require a knowledge of French; 5460, 5461. Independently of the professional advantage of collateral branches of knowledge, tliey might he made material as part of general education and training; he would make the learning of the rudimenls of those branches com])ulsory and not discretional ; in the Universities the selection of different branches of special education would be made , regards classics as indispensable, and thinks time might be found for the other subjects of teach- ing ; 5462-5468. Thinks advantage would arise from Ijoys remaining longer in the Lower School ; 5469-5471. Would have music and drawing taught ; status of mathematical and other t..acliers; Pestalozzi's teaching ; 5472-5479- An addi- tional number of Masters might be necessary if his suggestions were carried out; the Assistant Masters might form a sort of council of education ; 5480-5485, and 5506-5508. The Masters have more to do than they ought to have ; how this may be partially alleviated; 5487. Has no idea of a Master having a vested' interest in a greater number of private pupils than lias been determined to be proper; 5488, 54S9. A reasonable remuneration for an Assistant Master would be what he could be obtained for; 5491-5493. Expense of adopting his sug- gestions; 5493-5504. School management; appointment of »ssistants ; relation lietweeii them and Head Master ; expresses his opinion of" the Viceroy system (described in the evidence of the Rev. E. Coleridge, page 123, qs. 3757-3759) ; 5505-5517. Prefers Eton men for Upper and Lov\er Masters and Provost, if perfectly competent ; if not, he would enlarge the field of choice; 5518-5525. The subject pursued ; 5531-5535. The systematic election of Provost is with the Crown, by a coiip^ d^^ire, but there is no penalty for disobedience ; prefers that the Crown should appoint, and thinks the Provost should be a clergyman ; 5526-5530. Thinks an Eton boy stands as well accomplished and mentally trained as the boys from any other school, though be is aware that the Eton boys do not always carry off scholarships at the Universities, or succeed as well in the competition for the civil service and the military; 5536, 5537. The statetnent of the Dean of Christchurch, that though the matriculation test is of a very moderate kind, and was applied with great tenderness, 9 or 10 Eton boys out of 21 were rejected, applies to boys of the higher classes of society, who are often the least educated in the School, and would not be said of the foundation ; 5538-5540. Would form a fund by suppressing two or three fellowshii)s, and offer 50/. exhil>itions for oppidans, and thus incite thern to re-nppear as cotnpetitors for the " Newcastle" scholarship, from the race for which they have almost disajjpeared ; oppidans and collegers ; 5541-5554. Would like to see a matriculation examination at Eton, as he thinks that gramtnar is very unsatisfactorily taught in many proprietary schools ; 5355,5556. Thinks grammar and com- position are not sufficiently attended to at Eton ; 5556-5559. The Fellows have little or nothing to do wilh the School ; the Provost has a great deal ; and there seems to be no objection toil ; 5560-5566. Would like to see the. College reduced to the Provost and four Fellows, the Provost and one Fellow at least to be always resident during scl-.ool time, to give a general superintendence, to be at hand for consultation by the Head Master, and to be efficient examiners of the School ; would have every boy in the School examined in the half year ; would set aside 100/. a year for perfecting the College library, and appoint a salaried sub-librarian, and the residue he would devote to the foundation of 50/. exhibitions for oppidans only and he vvould give every boy who got an exhibition an honorary reward in books besides the money; 5567-5571. How this should be carried out, and the probable result; 5571-5594. Approves of the proposed increase of scholars from 70 to 100 per sc, but would rather devote the funds to the oppidans in the way suggested; 5595-5601. Emoluments of the Fellows; College livings ; residence; 5602-5907. Non-observance of .statutes; knows of no dispensing power ; oaths; 5608-5613. Eton property and mode of dealing with it; 5614-5616. Preaching in the chapel and attendance there; 5617-5619. The provostship ; opinion concerning it ; 5620-5622. COLERIDGE, Rev. EDWARD, M. A., page 117. Has been a Fellow of Eton College a little more than five Coleridge, Rev. E., M. A — cont. years, ami was Assistant ai\d Lower Master 32 years previously ; ;i648-3n51. Thinks the relations between the College and the School excellent; but it must be borne in mind that the College exercises a comparatively small influence over the oppidan part of the School, that being entirely in the bands of the Provost, and always ruled by the Provost exclusively through the Head Master; 3652. The exercise of the influence of the Provost, though rare, has been for the most part extremely beneficial ; his view confirmed by his experience in the School during the time of Dr. Keate and Dr. Ilawtrey, and a p,art of the time of Dr. Goodford; a sweeping reform by Dr. Hawtrey, on becoming Head Master, was accepted in its entirety by Dr. Goodall, the tbeti Provost; 3653-3658. In an important movement the Provost would consult the Fellows; in all matters affecting the collegers, neither the Provost nor Head Master could move without the Fellows ; restricted also from inflicting punishment on his own authority in some cases, 3659-3667. Believes there are passages in the statutes which prohibit the Provost from acting except in council with the Fellows ; 3668-3671. The Liber originulis is in the munitnent room ; but there are examined copies in the library accessible to the scholars;. 3672-3677. Has just been presented to a College living; pre- viously had always been resident, and should still he there as often as College business requires; Fellows are bound by the statutes to be resident three months, but arc practically resident a longer period; 3678-3685. The Fellows preach to the boys every Sutiday ; he doubts the propriety of throwing the pulpit open to the Assistant INListers, but regrets that the Master of the Lower School is not authorized to preach a little practical sermon every Sunday; 3686-3696. Any attempt to introduce the professorial systein at Eton would be the destruction of the School; 3697,3698. Explains bis objections to the proposed change ; 3699-3717. Thinks more subjects have been intro- duced into School than can be properly taught, and that the classics are not taught .so well .->s formerly ; 3718, 3719. Pro- poses a remedy for existing evil in case of boys having re- markable talents lor the acquisition of mathematical and little for classical knowledge, and vice versa; 3720-3723. Would also encourage a genius for physical science, and ability in music and modern languages, but to teach all these subjects at Eton would he to change it from a School to a University ^ 3724—3734. Modern languages, histoiy, and other things might be taught' at home, and then classics could be taught more effectually at Eton ; thinks German and Italian might be taught at Eton in class; but agrees with Dr. Hawtrey as to the great difficulty there would be in teaching French at Eton in class ; 3735-3745. English literature much neglected at Eton of late ; 3748-3756. General suggestions with refer- ence to this School ; thinks school books should be without notes ; that passages for translation into verse are selected with- out reference to fitness, and that this showed bad results in the last election for the Newcastle scholarship, both with re- gard to the oppidans and the collegers; thinks there is too much examination of the boys, and too much work for the Head Masters ; what is really wanted in the Upper School at Eton is three or four Viceroys under the Head Master ; describes the operation of the system which he would like to see introduced ; 3751-3759 and 3761, 3762. Thinks the collegers ought to pay nothing for their maintenance ; but would regret anything like a pauper chaiacter being given to the Colleges ; 3758. They would rue the day when the gowns were taken off. Would also have trencher caps worn; 3759-3761. Thinks Assistant Masters are appointed too young, and proposes a mode of remedying tlie resulting mischief; 3761-3764. Attaches great importance to restricting the choice of Masters to Eton men, and would break down all distinctions between the col- legers and oppidaTis ; wishes half the Masters in the School were oppidans; 3765. Believes that without abandoning its classical basis Eton might be made available for preparing every boy for any depaitment in life he might be subsequently called on to fill; the suggestion further elucidated ; 3765-3772, For seven years no oppidan has obtained the Newcastle scholarship ; the jireliminary examination for the oppidans insufficient ; the Head Miister overworked ; remedy suggested; 3773-3779, DUPUIS, Rev. G. J., M.A., Bursar (see GOODFORD, Rev, C. O.), page 1, et seq. DURNFORD, Rev. FRANCIS E., page 126. Has been Assistant Master of Eton for 23 years ; 3780, S7S1. Thinks the relations existing between the Provost and Head Master are of a healthy character; does not consider that the Provost and Fellows have ever unduly interfered or thwarted any wish of the Head Master; 3782-3787. The Head Master always consults the Assistant Masters as to any change he pro- poses to make in the government of the School, as to l)ooks, &c. &c. ; the meetings of Head and Assistant Masters are not at stated periods; they meet every school time; the meetings do not generally last more than five minutes, but they are held generally three times a day; no objection is ever tirade to bring- ing forward any suggestion for the advantage of the .School ; 3788-3792. The knowledge which the boys have of the rela- tion that exists between the Provost and the Head Master as far as relates to the discipline and education of the School does not affect the Head Master's authority ; 3793-3797. The whole system at Eton consists in deputing authority from master to master and from boy to boy ; the boys would not have so much respect for the captain as they would for the Master; 3798-3800. In the Fifth Form, French has been introduced as a voluntary elem.ent for examination; it PUBLIC SCHOOLS COMMISSION : — ANALYSIS OF EVIbENX'F. 315 DURNFOBD, Kev. F. E.— to'./. docs not form \y^rt of the ordinary curriculum of the Scliool ; it was introduced by tiie lute l*ro\ost, who suggested it to the late Head Master, Ur. Goodford ; about hall' the boys lake up French; 380I-:580(i, As to nund>er of boys who learn French, has 20 in his own division ; 3807, 3808. There is one French M-isler and one Assistant at Eton ; French is nut atiended to nearly so much as the classics and mathematics ; dues not think the study of modern Iangua<;es is desirable; it would be impos- sible to introduce more work ; he would not like to introduce foreigners to the School ; thinks they would not ol)t:iin the respect of the boys, and parents woiild not like their children to be taught foreign languages by Engiishcncn ; 3S0D-3811. The classics at Eton are not what they ought lo be; 3812. The average scholarship of Eton is better than formerly ; Latin scholarship has rather fallen oft', Greek improved ; it is com- mon for a boy in the loiverpart of the School to bring up Greek iambics; boys who come to Eton are not well prepared ; gene- rally they come between the ages of 12 and 14; 3813-3818. Boys are only tried in the Latin and Greek grammars when they first come ; those from private schools are not generally fit to be placed in the Upper School ; 3819-3822. Teii out of 50 boys would fail in getting into the Upper School ; nature of the examination for the Upper School ; 382.5-382L'. Boys come out of the Lower School exceedingly well pre- pared ; 3830. Boys who come from the Lower School take higher i)laces than those who come from piivate schools ; 3831. Each boy fakes three maihematicai Ussons per week ; there are eight JMathematical Masters ; does not think three French ^Masters woidd be sufficient for the School ; each boy pays 10 guineas a year for French, three lessons per week ; I'rench Masters are not allowed to take private pupils ; would not object to a German iMaster taking private pupils ; 3832-3844. Parents generally consult with the Eton tutors as to where they shoidcl send their sons to he pre- pared for Eton ; 3845. Nearly every tutor has a school which he rcconmiends ; 3846-3848. Some few boys come to Eton direct from home ; 3849-3852. Since the time Mr. Coleridge became the Master of the Lower School it has gone on improving ; where the Head IMaster works the assistants work ; it is four years since he took the position ; he had a remarkable power of teaching ; the boys who came from him generally did well ; 3853-3SG3. Considers the proper age for a boy to come to Eton is 11^ or 12 years ; 3864. Great im- provement has lately been made as to the comfort of the boys ; the upper and lower boys are now quite separate ; Mr. John Hawlrey's house is occupied almost exclusively by Lower School boys ; does not think Eton the best place for boys so young as 9 or 10; little boys require a different arrangement of the boarding house ; thinks it best for hoys to come to Eton prepared to go into the Upper School ; boys may come to Eton at five years of age ; 3865-3881. Opinion as to age for Upper and Lower Schools ; mixture of ages ; 3882-3894. Some clever boys come to Eton who are backward through neglect ; these rapidly make up for lost time ; the tutorial system is very advantageous ; a boy's tutor stands hi loco parentis ; 3895-3905. Each boy construes his lesson in class; gives bis Fourth Form boys 27 hours' instruction per week, Fifth Form 10 hours, Sixth Form five hotus, in all 42 hours per week, or seven hours' schooling each day j all boys who board in house con- sidered as private pupils; 3905-3910. E.ach private boarder pays 120/. per year, of which 20/. is for jirivate tuition ; 391 1- 3915. Has 35 pupils in the house and 25 out ; of the 25 out, 10 pay 10 guineas per annum, and 15 pay 20 guineas per annum for tuition ; im difference is made as to the teaching of these ; the remission is in consequence of comparative poverty ; 3916-3923. School expense and details of instruction ; 3924- 3934. Fifth Form instruction ; 3935-3945. The same sys- tem as to private tuition, charges, and instruction is used by ail the tutors; 1^946-3950. .Allows himself \^ hours per diera for exercise, and is at work all the rest of the time ; 3951, 3952. Writes occasionally to parents ; 5953-3958. Does not give prizes for private business ; thinks if a boy works well he ought to have his holidays ; the Upper School boys have holiday tasks ; the Lower School boys do not have regularly authorized holiday tasks; 3953-3963. In private business the boys are classed according to their position in the School ; 3966. The boys are arranged in sets according to their proficiency and read diflerent books ; private work ; 3964-3999. Religious instruction, 4000-4009. Sermons, 4010-4013 and 4023-4027. As to attending chapel on the holidays, thinks it good .as a matter of discipline ; would like to have a choral service every morning, but thinks there would be a difliculty as to time ; boys have family prayers in the tutor's house ; 4014-4016. Dames' houses, 4017, 4018; and prayers there, 4019-4022. Would not interfere with the existing arrangements as to preaching ; 4023-4027. Asked as to the Viceroy system (described in Mr. Coleridge's evidence, qs. 3757-3759), witness does not see the advantage of the proposed change ; 4028-4034. Alte- 1-ation in the calendar ; 4035-4038. Occasions on which holi- days are given, 4039—4045. More private business in the School than there would be if there were fewer holidays ; 4046- 4048. EVANS, W., Esq., page 260. Keeps a boarding house at Eton; has done so since 1837 ; it is a dame's bouse ; charges 80 guineas per annum, which charge does not include the tuition fee ; has 46 boys in his house ; stands !n loco parenlis to them ; 7938-7957. Moral superintendence and influence ; discipline ; 7958-7967. Ex- penses, rent, &c. detailed ; dames' houses and tutors' houses; Evans, W., Esq. — cnnt, goodwill of l.itlcr sold ; three of the Mathematical M.isters have houses at present ; 7958-8023. A great change has taken place in the morale of the School ; improved dui.r.g the last 10 years ; thinks the charges in dames' houses might be raised ; 8024-8079. Drawing ; was Drawing Master'for 30 years ; library ; does not think the physical energy of the Etoii boys has degenerated ; S080-8093. GOODFORD, Rev. C. O., D. D., Provost. There were exa- mined at the same time DUPUIS, Rev. G. J., Jl. A., Bursar; and BATCHELDOR, T., Esq., Registiar, page 1. Has been Provost of Eton College since the 14th February; was previously Head Master lor nine years. Mr. JJupuis : I have been Bursar five years. Mr, Batchflilor : — I am Uegis- irar; 1-7. The property of Eton College is held intrust by the Provost and College; it was conveyed lo them by charter of Henry VI. in fee; they possess every kind of leasing powers; the only property held in trust for the College that is not held by the College consists of the exhibition funds. Refers to charters; 8-11. The property is administered according to the directions of statute XIII. ; leases h.ive been granted for terms of years, and the rents carried to the College account ut the banker's, and accounted for by the Buisar at the animal audit by the whole College; 12-17. Excejit in one or two instances, the extreme leases are 10 years for tithes, 20 for land, 21 for house, but the College take advantage of the statute of Elizabeth, and let houses with less than 10 acres of land for 40 years ; IS. Details are given by the witnesses as to public statutes regarding leasing powers and the practice of the College as to leases of their property; 19-46. Occasionally the Provost makes progresses over the College est;ites to ascertain their condition ; these progresses have long been in desuetude ; they were revived by the Provost 20 yeais a""o, but have not been regulaily continued ; as Bursar, witness has gone to almost all the estates; the Provost is particularly charged by the statutes with the superintendence of the pro- perty; 53-59. There is no archive in which there is a record of foregifts; 60. But doubtless they have always been ac- counted for; 100,etsuii. Visiting the pro|)crty must he advan- tageous; 61-63. System of fines not advantageous; 69,70. It would be better that College estates should be managed as the properiy'of a private gentleman ; hut there are difiiculties in the w.ay of accomplishing this short of a long period of years ; Eton College has property in 22 counties ; 71. The College has commenced letting leases run out, and declining to renew ; 73. This will greatly increase the value of the property ; 90, and 1581-1588. Does not think the system of levying fines conlrarv to the statutes; 91. 'The reserved rents are reserved by lease, but regulated by statute; 95. Old law as to fines; 107. Fines have been divided inmiemorially between the Provost and F'ellows; and never accounted for in the audit; 108- 123. It is clear that fines have been taken here and in other religious houses from an early period, although there is no record of them ; 124 el scq. Fines must be added to the rent to get the " true annual value " of the property named in the statutes; but the fines have never been brought into account ; 146-160. Divided among the Provost and Fellows, the Provost taking two shares; 172-174. If the leases were all to run out the College property might be increased from 20,000/. to 30,00'V. a year; in some of the cases where the leases have run out no applications were made for renewal ; in others the College refused to renew ; 180-191. Explanation given of the "increased aimual expenditure;" more plentiful supply of food, new buildings, attendants, &c., including also Assistant Master, in College; 192-198. In 1780 Dr. Godolphin left 4,000/. to the College for the purpose of improving the food of the boys, but the College borrowed the money and ac- cumulated the fund ; 199-208. It now amounts to 8,000/. ; 256. It was borrowed for improvements; 265, 207-218. The interest of the Godolphin fund now applied to the improvement of the diet; 267. The witnesses gave details of the building of a new wing and St. John's Church, and the construction of sewerage and a cemetery; to meet expense of buildings the College had to borrow money; 219-243. Assistant (Masters' houses ; 244 ct seq. The rents and rack- rents amounted in 1860 to 10,807/. 15s. 5\d. ; Ihe Provost and Fellows get no benefit from the recent improveiuent in the rentals; 272. 1,298/. is about the average amount expended in repairs ; 274. Details as to t would interfere in case of an increase of existing charges; 2359-236(). French Masters and the emolument; about 100 boys learn French; at present only one French nia-rtcr ; French is an extra ; does not see how we could introduce it as part of the regular course; the boys who have learned French liave taken the time out of their play hours; the Prince Consort's prizes for modern languages stimulate the boys to improve themselves in French ; besides ibis some of the Assistant Masters set holiday tasks with a like object ; would like to see one more French Master and a definite p.nrt of the day set ap.u't for French ; modern languages are taken in School examina- tions, and reckon one-fifteenth of the whole examination ; tlie French Master has no power of carrjing on discipline In his School beyond reporting to the Head IMaster ; 2367-2485. Boys also learn German at Eton of a Gernian Mastir ; 2-186— 2488. The jna: lice as to boarding houses and d;uiies' houses and goodwill ; 2489-2518. Prefers tangle sleeping rooms, ex- cept in the case of brothers ; 2519-2520. Use of the library ; 2521-2524. Wine and beer ; no complaints of diet being meagre or redundant ; 2525-2534. Charge for board and lodging in tutors' houses ; operation of the tutorial system ; 2535-2545. Use of pastry shops ; 2546. Public houses prohibited ; 2547— 2554. Dames' houses ; 2555-2563. Number and age ot the boys ; 2564-2570. Delay of the Masters in making out the returns ; 2571-2583. Ktlative value of classics and modern languages stated as 15 and 1 ; 2584, 2585, and 2662, 26f8. Physical science taught only by lecturers ; 2585, 2586, Pro- motion partly by examination ; double removes ; scholarships ; 2587-2639. As to Classical IMasters, the extra temporary assist- ance in some has only been resorted to during the last few- years ; 2640-2643. Geography and history taught ; tlie department not so efficient as it ought to be ; essays are given on Iiistorical subjects ; 2644-2662. Increase of prizes and honorarj'^ distinctions; 2664-2669. Examination in divisions three times a year ; 2670-2673, More frequent examinations neither possible nor desirable ; 2674-2678. For the Tomlinc prize of 30/. there are generally about 30 candidates; 2679. Other prizes; 2680-2698 and 2707-2736. Oppidans pre- cluded from competition for various prizes ; w hen not precluded seldom successful ; 2699-2702. The only scholarship open to the whole School, the Newcastle scholarsliip ; 270S-2706 E r 3 ETON. ns PUBLIC SCHOOLS COJIMISSIOX : — ANALYSIS OF EVIDENCE. _„,,„ GooDFORn, Ucv. C. O.—i-0„f. j , .- j- • *^^^- OtlRTS opfii only to King's Scholars ; mode of adjndication ; 0707-2726. Details arc given in the Eton Calendar, and in appendix" to the Provost's answers to pTinted questions; '2727 2728. Further particulars; superannuated sdiolars ; 0729-2736. A fresh piivate tutor is now limited to 40 pupils ; <'737-27'14' and 2779-B789. Uniformity of tutors' charges desirahle ; 2745-2750. Is satisfied with the tutor system as actually practiced, and in relation to the Newcastle scholar- ship • ^751-2776. Punishments; 2777,2778. Military exami- nations; 2790-2801. The Sdiool library; 2802-2809. Drawing; 2810-<'81" Only ;!5 boys learning out of 800; 2825-2828. Music' t-nught in the College; 281:3-2824. Religious and moral training is secured hy constant intercourse between the tutor and pu(.il, and the daily morning and evening prayer in all tlx tutors' anil many of the dames' houses ; 2829. Prayers are read in danie^' houses on .Sundays, in some on week days also- discret;on.-iry with the dames; 2830-2837. No doubt pains are taken by the Assistant Masters to impress religious truths on the boys on Sundays ; 2838, 2839 ; and moral rcsponsibilitv : 2840, 2841. A great moral improvement has taken place 'in the tone of the boys during the last 20 years ; 2842-2844. 'I'he di!ci|)line satisfactory; 2845-2847. Ihe Sixth Form have authority to set punishment, not inflictpersonal chastisement; 2848-2850. For what oft'euces ; 2351-2856. Duties of Six;li Form ; 2857-2853. Degra.lation in Sixth Form for dereliction of duty ; 2864-2869. How far applicable to oppidans; 2870-2874. Thinks Eton practice as to punish- ments preferable to that at Winchester and Harrow; 2875- 2877. The monitorial .ind prefect power has gone down very much during the last 20 years ; 2878-2882. Has not been transferred to any other class; 2883. The captain of the boats is a great man, greater than the captain of the eleven ; 2884-2887. Sermons in College chapel ; thinks the Head Master should preach oftener ; 2889-2904. Boys' attendance at Holy Com- munion voluntary; bow many atlend ; the church arrangements ; improvement in general conduct of boys at church ; 2905-2912. Eton affected by the Act of Uniformity; 2913, 2914. Thinks they could use the Litany only with leave of Bishop; 2915, 2916. Offences and punishments; 2917-2921. Less frequent than formerly ; 2931 rf sc56\i, The social status of a Mathematical Master is not so inferior as it formerly was ; respect paid to Mathematical Master by boys; 6564-6582. Considers that the indifference of the Governing Body to mathematics arises from the fact that they were educated at King's College, where little or no attention is paid to that branch of study ; never knew a Fellow of King's College evince any interest in mathematics; 6583—6590. Lectures on physical science and especially experimental lectures are listened to with great attention by the boys ; experienced men are engaged to lecture; attendance is voluntary; answ-ers are given by the boys to printed questions given to them by the professor before commencing the lecture. (Witness handed some of the answers to the Commissioners.) Two weekly lectures, upper boys from 7 to 8, lower boys from 4 to 5. Each boy pays 35. per lecture, or 2.9. per lecture for the course ; lectures arranged by witness ; a prize is given for the best answers ; interest taken in lectures, &c. ; 6591-6645. Music ; Two classes have been established for instructing the boys in music ; about 12 or 14 in each class attend them ; considers that teaching the boys music by Hullah's system does much towards training their minds; no regular musical training at Eton ; in 1843 Mr. Hullah had a large class, but it was broken up in conse- quence of the scarlatina making its appearance ; very many of the boys would be glad to learn music ; 6646-6677. Has applied the intellectual and moral system of Eton lo the lower classes of Windsor In the parochial school ; evidence con- cerning the parochial school of Windsor ; thinks that teach- ing Latin to the children of the lower classes has the eff'ect of improving their intellectual faculties and enables them to apply greater intelligence to the ordinary duties of life|; PUBLIC SCHOOLS COMMISSrON : — ANALYSIS OF EVIDENCE. 319 IIawtkey, Rev. S. T., iM.A. — cont. considers th.u the boys "l" tiie pai"«chliil school arc further advaiK'ed in arithmetic th.»n tlie Lovvor School at Eton ; many boy-i in the rirsi divi-*i(>a of th.' Louver School are of an iige at whicli thL*y ou^ht to he in the Upper School ; has puhlishet-1 several tracts relating to the ^Vi^dso^ parochial school ; 667S- 6701. JAMES, Rev. CHARLES CALDECOTr, M. A., page 160. Has been Assistant Classical Master at Eton Ih years; 4751, 4752. Sees no reason why the number of collegers should not be augmented to 100, except tliat the l*rovost and Fellous ought better to fultil tlieir duties towards the present 70 by feeding them better and paying for their tuition ; '1753. The condition of the collegers has been greatly ameliorated, but there is still great room for improvement; 4754. Describes the food as it was 12 years ago; thinks the diet suital)le for the strong healthy boy, not for the more delicate, owing to the monotony o( it; 4755-4759. Dinner consists of meat, bread, and beer, and puddings only on Sundays ; 4760— 4761. Never heard anytliing about the Godolphin bequest to provide puddings, ^c. till he saw it in evidence ; 4762. Further facts and o)>inions concerning the diet ; 4763-4770. Medical attendance ; 4771-4779. Smatoriuni for fever, scarlatina, and diphtlieria, and houses for small-pox, &c. cost 6,000/., which was reduced by Dr. Goodford to 3,000/. ; 24s. a year paid towards the saniiarium, \c. by each pupil ; 4780—4785. When the school xvas full this would be nearly 1,000/. a year, so that 10,000/. or 12,000/. inust have been raised by the parents to pay for the building which cost 6,000/., and o^ which 3,000/. is still unpaid ; 4786, 4787. No report or balance sheet ever circulated ; 4788-4792. New school buildings; in order to provide them, masters gave up their salaries for four years, the Provost and Keilows contributed 1,000/. collectively bei-idys individual donations, the Eton public contributed, and so did the Queen and the Prince Con- tort; 4790—4800. .Scliolarsliips, conferred by competition ; ihiiiks the standard too high, and that the younger boys injure themselves by overwork in the preparation, 4801-4S12. As a consequence the collegers play cricket less than formerly, an 1 there is le^s communication between them and the oppidans ; 4813-4815. Is acquainted with the general system of life and discipline in the College and in the boarding houses, and pre- fers that in the latter; 4816-1818. Explains the College system; no great tyranny can be exercised since the introduc- tion of the Assistant Master ; 4819. Instances of what it was formerly, 4826-4829. The monitorial system has since been dying out ; 4S20, 4821 and 4830, 4831. The intention of tlu* founder doubtless was that the foundation scholars should hnv.- their education gratis ; 4832. At present, the necessary expens? of a very economical boy, exclusive of clothes and money, would be 25/. a year ; 4833, 4834. Prefers looking on the fellowships as a kind of superannuation sinecures for Assistant Masters to making the Fellows take part in the duties of the College, and is not prepared to say tliat the Provost and Fellow.^ should in that case remain the governing body in the School ; 4838-4846. The subject pursued as to retiring pensions and College livings ; 4847-4865. Worplesdon and Mapledurham ; 4866. Fellows elected from the Masters direct, and irjust be King's men; mode of election ; 4867-4871. Has 28 boarders; may take 32 ; receipts from boarders indirect remuneration for tuition ; estimated cost per hoy 73/. to 75/., or about 2/. a week ; 4872- 4880, Cost at Harrow and Rugby ; 488 1-4833. Income Tax Commissioners fix the profit per boy at 49/. or 50/. ; 4844. Would somewhat prefer payment by salary ; boys can be wltli- drawn from school without notice ; 4885-4392. Private busi- ness with all the hoys, except the Lower Form and the Remove; 4893-4897. Has 15 pupils out of the house, 13 Fifth Form and lower boys ; they do not all pay 20 guineas a year ; collegers pay 10/. ; five of the 15 are oppidan-;, two of whom pay 10 guineas and the other three pay 20 guineas; had no right to demand 20 guineas of any ; the parents pay which sum they please ; the dame sends in the charge, and the Assistant Master takes what is returned ; 4898-4925. Under the pre- sent system the payments for classical and mathematical tuition are 31/. 185. ; his substitute would be nearly identical ; the advantage of the proposed change would be that the assistant would not be at Eton a year or two without receiving enough to meet his expenses ; 4926-4937. Dames' houses less expen- sive than tutors' houses ; 4938-4946. The subjects pursued ; 4947--4960. Outlay in setting up a tutor's house, in rebuilding, repairing, and furnishing, amounts to from 3,000/. to 6,000/. ; 4961-4970. Average charges or perquisites; 4971-4975. Opinion as to viceroy system {see also evidence of Rev. E. Coleridge, p. 123, qs. 3757-3759); 4976-4990. He would devote less time to themes, more to translation into English ; would not reduce the time devoted to verses ; 4991-4999. Thinks 40 boys manageable by one master; 5000-5006. Boys found ignorant from idleness would be reported to the Head Master; 5006. Tutorial system, construing, and school work generally; 5007-.5027. Flogging; 5028. Favoritism; 5029,5030. Eton books; 5031-5040. The army class a failure; 5041-5047. History and geography should form part of the system of the school, in order to which some of the repetition in classics and mathematics might be dispensed with ; 5048-5052. The public think that a gentleman is scarcely educated unless he knows French ; Eton the only school where it is not taught ; 5053- 5064. Drinking at inns on Sundays and other times prevails, although strictly forbidden ; it Is looked down upon more than formerly ; drunkenness rare ; 5065-5079. Smoking prohi- James, Rev. C. C, M.A. — con(. bited ; punishment flogging ; 508O-.50*<2. Eton mproved of late, both as to drinking: and smoking pi-acO'ces ; 5082-5084. Other offences against morality how punished ; 5085-5092. Shirking luul bounds; 5091-5094, and 5100-5105. Thinks the disciplinary powers of the Sixth Form better exercised in the present sort of undefined way than they would be if more strictly defined ; 5095. Almanac reform required ; no difhculty in reforming it; 5096-5103. Thinks the result of the education at Eton satiisfactory on the wliole, though deficient in some important particulars; 510'i-51 10. The pupil might be tau«-Iit in College mmy things now Tiegle ted without materially cur- tailing the present classical and mathematical work; 51 1 1-51 16. Remarks on the position of Mathematical Masters; 5117-5122. JUNIOR KING'S SCHOLAR, A, of Eton College, page 292. Is 13 years of age ; is a scholar at Eton ; was elected at the College, and placed In the Lower Remove, six weeks before the end of last lulf, since which he has passed Into the Upper Re- move ; 90S5-9102. Describes fagging, which interrupts lessons a little, but does not seem to be regarded us objectionable; there is little ot bullying, and what there Is not in favour of the Sixth Form ; the same with regard to fighting ; 9103-9358. JOHNSON. WILLIAM, Esq., M.A.,p:»ge 133. Has been an A-^sistant Master at Eton 17 years ; was on the foundation at Eton, and afterwards on King's ; 4049-4052. Does not consider that the property of Eton College is admi- nistered in tiie mo^t satisfactory or advantageous manner for the benefit of the School ; believes it could be cooblderably improved by running out the leases, and not taking fines on renewals, 4053, 4054. The property of King's materially improved by the p,irll.d abolition of fines ; and the Efon property is capable of a similar improvement ; 4055-4060. Believes the present system at Eton, of receiving fines and dividing them among the Ivllows, to be imstatntable ; 4061, 4062, and 4093, 4094. Illustration of the mischief of the present system of letting the College houses ; 4063-4092. The fund at King's pays stipen- diary charges, and the surplus is divided among the Scholars as well as the Fellows. Has no doubt that Etun College in- cludes Scholars; would define "collegium" to mean *' the provost, and Fellows, and 70 hoys;" 1093-4111. Appoint- ment of Assistant Masters to fellowships and benefices; abuses connected therewith, and suggested remedies, including a modi- fication of the Governing Body, reduction of the value of the fellowships, t^vc., described at length; 4142-4 147. Recom- metids the establishment of endowments for music, modern languages, and French literature; 4118-4150. Would like to see some of the Mathematical Masters in the Governing Body ; further suggestions as to the proposed new Govern- ing Body; 4151-4175. His scheme would perhaps slightly dnninlsh the expense of education ; details on the subject ; the collegers get more instruction for lo/. 10>. than the. oppidans for 21/. ; the College will probably strike off* that 10/. 10*. payment ; 4176-4186. Government of College ; Rugby a pure despotism ; that was not his model ; his model was a College at Oxftjrd or Cambridge ; further details of the proposed modification of the government of Eton; 4187-4208. Perhaps the power of removal of the Head Master would be best vested in the Crown as visitor ; 4209-4222. He would remove the restriction with respect to the Masters coming from Eton and Kint^*s; would have no restriction, except that they should be Oxford or Cambridge men ; would leave the appoint- ment In the huids of the Head Master ; 4223-4235, and 4238-4241. To some extent, the viceroy system (described by the Rev. E. Coleridge, 3757-3759) might be useful, especially to younger Masters ; 4236-4237. The Provost need not be a critical schoolmaster, but he should be a literary man; 4242-4246. Dignity of Fellows; 4247-4249. Is rather averse to giving the Assistant Masters power to preach; 4250-4257. Status of Mathematical blasters much inqiroved of late, but still far inferior to that of the classical ; describes the principal points of difference ; King's mt^n refuse the office of Assistant Mathematical blaster; 4258-4.302, and 4312- 4314. Origin of the 20 guinea payment for private instruction ; 4333-4311. A great difference exists In the social position of the oppidans and collegers; details as to walking, asso- ciating, cricket, foot-ball, music club, volunteering, boating, and bathing: 4312-4322 and 4325-4348. Thinks the collegers would be glad to get rid of the gown; he would abolish it himself; 4323,4324. Would prohibit by authority the forma- tion of separate clubs by the oppidans and collegers ; 4332- 4335. Inferior diet of the collegers ; 4349-4355. Expecta- tions of succeeding to wealth among some of the oppidans induce idleness ; other causes of the superiority of the collegers; remedies which he would propose ; exhibitions tenable by oppi- dans at the Universities ; a more stringent entrance examinatior for the oppidans might be attended with improvement, but if very severe would exclude the upper class of l)oys, 4336-4374. There might be an advantage In the poorer collegers being kept out of the expensive habits of the oppidans ; 4374-4379. Time an oppidan would work, if preparing for the " New- castle" ; 4380, 4381. Would like to see the lower scl ool re- moved, or put on an entirely distinct footing, In which case the Masters would remain there instead of coming as now Into the upper school, for which they are not suited ; 4382-4391, Irregularity of the holidays mischievous ; 4392-4399. Change of books, new editions, revision committee appointed, &c. ; the education ol the School injured by the introduction of unsuitable R r 4 ETON, 320 PUBLIC SCHOOLS COMMISSION : — ANALYSIS OF EVIDENCE. ETON. Johnson, W„ Esq.— m"/. books; -M 00-4 ■119. School sludifs; 44'2O-4440 Wcctings of Assistant Masters, and coniinuiiication l)i't"ten llii'm and llie Head jr:isUT and Provost, 4441-4444, '\Vi'_lies to see IVcncli eiHoniaged to a greater extent than at present, and thinks there is^no diflieidty in the way, if the holipostors' duties and powers ; punishme-its inflicted by Sixth Fonn boys at discretion, without appeal, in lite shape of imposition' or " licking ;" feeling against it; 7105-7134. Duties of bead of the house ; 7135-7138. Relations of the Sixth Form to the rest of the school satisfactory ; public opinion ; the school in a sound state ami sufficiently strong to put down anything discredit.able, such as habitual gambling ; 7143-7183. IJully- ing not in favor; 7184—7202. Nor fighting, nor boxing ; 7203-7212. Fagging is approved by witness, and it is not disliked by the school ; 7241-7247. Head of a house main- tains order ; 7248. Smoking is very little practised ; 7249- 72*0. There are prayers said by the masters in the house morning and evening ; ])rivaie prayers; 7251-7258. Diet not very good ; 7259-7283. Mode of spending Sunday ; choral services ; sermons by the Fellows disliked ; the boys would prefer preaching by the Masters ; 7284-7305. Confirmation ; the Communion reg.trded with a reverential feeling ; 7306- 7319. Attendance at chapel on saints' days; does not think the boys vvoidd like the substitution of a short choral service for the present services ; 7320-7328. F.araily pr.iyers in private house preferred ; 7329-7330. Relations between hoys antl tutors; 7331-7341. Private work; preparation of lessons; studies ; libraries ; books for reading ; novels ; 7342-7420. Games ; time devotetl to cricket ; 7421—7428, 17 boys out of 20 do their own verses; 7429. Cricket; 7430-7437. Considers that the Eton composition is faidty and it has a bad effect when the boy gets to Oxford ; 7438-7447. Expenditure; 7448-7465. Repetition of studies; any Master who tried to alter the repetition system would be disliketl ; 7466-747 1. Considers that more Greek prose and Greek conqjosition should be done ; 7475-7477. Does not consider the school too large ; 7478-7481. Historical composition ; 7482-7483. OKES, Rev. RICHARD, D. D, page 284. Has been Provost of King's College, Cambridge, 12 years ; ■was Lower blaster at Eton at the time he was elected ; 8878, 8879. Eton boys sent to Kiiig's are now of a higher order ; 8880. The electors are the Provost, Vice-Provost, and Head Master of Eton, and the Provost and the Fellows ( Masters of Arts) of King's ; they meet in Jidy to elect to King's and Eton. Describes the old motle of election to King's ; the changes gradually inti^odueed. comiTiencing in 1820 up to the preseitt time, when the examinations are a real and inqjortant test of ability, and tend greatly to improve the training of the collegers; 8881-8970. After Dr. Hodgson had been Provost about two years the syjtem of nominations to Eton was given up and atlmission by examination substituted ; 8971-8980. Describes the changes introdncetl by Dr. IIa\\'trey, the effect of which has been very greatly to improve the character of the scholarship of the collegers ; 8981-8991. The Eton collegers acquit themselves well at King's ; he did not know much about the opjiidans ; thinks that mathematics are now very well taught at Eton ; 8991-8998. Sees no objection to choosing Eton Assistant Masters from other places besides King's College, Cambridge, though it woidd be best for them all to have been educated at Eton ; thinks the Head iNJaster should he in orders; 8999-9006. Also the Provost ; 9007. Relations between tutors and boys much improved ; boarding htmses ; does not think the private pupil system is necessary ; Dr. Goodall was the originator of private business ; holidays ; 9016-9049. Eton scholarship; does not consider the general classical knowledge of the boys at Eton so good as it used to be; a large proportion of the boys have no taste whatever for Latin composition ; Greek iambics are not done so well at Eton as elsewhere ; repetitions ; does not think any boy would have a difficulty in learning 20 or 30 lines hy heart every day ; case of Sydney Walker and another learning by heart ; 9050-9084. PAUL, THE Rev. CHARLES KEGAN, B.A., page 199. Was conduct at Eton over eight years, and Assistant IMaster seven ; was in College an oppidan in the Piovost's house for five years, and subsequently was at Oxford ; 5023-5029. Is now incumbent of Sturminster Marshall ; 5030-5634. Knows of no reason why a conduct is excluded from any of the 12 best College livings, if refused b-' the Fellows; 5635-5640. Emolu- PUBLIC SCHOOLS COMMISSION :— ANALYSIS OF EVIDENCE. 321 Paul, Rev. C. K., B.\,—cont. nient of Assistant Masters, 350/., with apartments, coals, antl light ; acliiiowledged by Provost and Fellows to he insufticient ; 5G41-5o43. Thinks it desirable tbut the olHce should be- held by a young man inuk-r 40; 5(M4, 5G-I7. Ucsciiljes tiie Hinercnce between a conduct and Assi<;t:int Master and a tutor in a boarding-house ; the three conducts are the curates of the parish, whicli consists of nciiriy 4,000 people; 56!S-5o"7:>. When he first went, and down to tlie end of 1857, every col- leger !iad a dame ; the arrangement in case of siekucss was so bad tliat ho represented it as soon as possible, and ollered to take tiie dame's duties on himself, and that was shortly carried out by the College ; 5674-5G7G. IMaslcr in College and his emoluments ; 567S-569G, 5699-5703, and 5709. De- bating society ; 5697, 569S. Arrangements for tno sick are unsatisfactory ; 5701-570S. Knows of only one instance where the preparation for the competitive examination was in- jurious ; 5710-5712. Alienalion between the collegers and the oppidans described ; is in favor of the disuse of the gown, the separation, however, serves to protect the collegers fioni the contagion of oppidan extravagance; it would be de- sirable ih.at there should be oppid;ui competitions also ; 5713- 5747. Expenses of education : fur a colleger 49/. 17a\ is the average, of which about 251. is for education ; 5748-57C2. Dis- approves of mutton five times a week for the delicate boys ; sonic go without dinner ; the diet sliould be more varied ; 5763-5770 and 5774-5776. The quahty of the beer and of the provisions generally is good; 5771-5773. Thinks there are puddings oi'ten en<^ugli, hut there ought to bo cheese; .5777-5731. The subject of diet and driuk pursued; late breakfasts, unci their cause ; 57S-J-5805. Fagging descrilied ; 5793-5S30, Diet and meals resumed ; 5829-5S37, Bullying r;ot sGvere ; the power remains but the spirit with which it is adminiblered is altered; 5838-5S45. The boys dislike the three o'clock chapel service; 5S46-5S49- Duties of conduct in College interfere with parish work very mucli ; 5850. Tlic I'V'Uows interfered in the parisli government; 5851-5856. Conducts iiavc great difiieulty in getting admission to tlic library ; 5857-5-^60. Oeeasional preaching by the Assistant Masters 'vould be beneficial ; 586I-5S63. STOCKER. KICHARD, Esq.. 1\I.R.C.S.E. (Sec Lybiif, Philip Lvbbe Powys, Esq., M.l'., page 308 et scq.) TARVEU, II., Esq., page 237. Succeeded his father in the French Mastership at F.ion 10 years ago. Was previously a'^sislant to his father for 10 years ; 6P85-6B87. AVas born in England, but has lived a great deal in France; since he has been the Head French Master has liad several assistants ; t!ie first was Signor Siiiibaldi, the Italian Master, who was not a good teac/ur, although he knew lite language well ; tried to get rid of Siiiuor Sinll>alili, but Dr. Hawtrey (then Head Master) insisted on l.is staying ; he re- mained iwo years as assistant French teacher, imtil witness's brother, wlu) liad been to France to be (piallfied for the situation, came over ; Signor Sinibaldi soon after left the College ; Iiis brother remained a year and then left, in consetpience of having obtained abetter appointment; 6888-6914. Since that time has had four assistants; greatest number of pupils 130; 6915-6919. In tlic summer montlis the boys do not devote so much time to French as in tlie winter, and they all come at once, so that assistance Is obliged to be obtiiined ; 6920-6922 . From the time the last assistant came the number of French sc! olars has much deei eased; it is now only 75. I-.ast assistant re- mained one year and four months; 6923-6929. Has had no permanent asbistance since that time ; 6930. Cause of decrease in the number of Frcncli scholars ; 6931-6934. Boys do not leave off learning Freneli in the middle of a school time ; sends reports to Head Master if any boys are absent or guilty of mis- conduct ; present Head Jlas'er takes no notice of these reports ; Head Master does not attach any importance to the study of French ; 6935-6944. IMode of teaching French ; nearly all boys who come to Eton know something of French ; the greater part of the French scholars arc from the Fifth Form and Remove ; considers that the boys make fair progress ; they have three hours a week at French ; 6945-6956. No encouragement is given to the study of French ; the work is very unsatisfactory ; boys do not care to learn; and the Masters do not support the French teachers; 6957-6967. Wislies the study of French to remain optional, but for the authorities to lake more notice of It and to see that the boys do not shirk their lessons ; study of French could be made obligatory ; four Masters would be able to teach all tiie hoys, and give two lessons a week ; 6968-6974. Has no difficulty in keeping order ; has as much trouble in teaching a Frenchman to keep order as in teaching a boy French ; 6975-6977. The German Master complains of non-attendance, but not of disorder ; 6978. Always speaks French to the boys where he can be understood; conversation in French ; many boys come well prepared in pro- nunciation and accent ; 6979-6987. Boys also come some- times well prepared in classics ; mode of teaching French, recitations, &c. ; 698S-70I1, Has an Assistant blaster now ; engaged a Frenciiman residing in the nelghbourliood, but dis- mi'^sed him two scbooltimes ago, in consequence of finding that the numbers decreased ; 7012-7015. Emoluments are derived only from the fees of the boys, lOguincas a year; average num- ber is SO ; has now 75; pays his own assistant; has no private pupils or boys who pay a higher rate; 7016-7020. Is not recognised as a Master, but only as one wiio has the privilege of teaching French ; 7021-7025. Hires a pupil room of the Coiie^e ; has no boarding house ; applied to Dr. Goodford for 1. Tarveu, II., Escj. — co«/. a lio:ircliug Iioum', but was told lie li:ul pronikcd so many to jMatliuinatical i\Ja-,tt'rs that it wouM he ot" no use Cur witness to think, of uhtaining one ; 70'JG-70:*'I. \\':is ttUicated at Eton, and took a tlej^iee at llie French V^niverbity, the Sorhonne ; 7(i3j-70.'J7. If French were made an obligatory study, tliL' soil of a l'"i-eneh jarcnt, or a boy who had been educated in France, would have a gieat advantage over a hoy v;ho had not these ad- vantages; boys educated in France aic often beaten by boys wlio have learnt in England ; finds great dillicnlty in teaching a hoy FVench grammur who has only leurnt French Iiy hearing ; study of French, &c.; 703S-704S. WALFORD, J. T., Esu., M.A., page 2G4. Is M.A. of King's College, Cambridge, and has been Classical M.ister at Eton about two years; S094-Hi)ii7. It seems an unfortiuiate thing for the School (hat the Head I\Iaster should be so dependent on the superior authority of a Provost and Fellows; 8098-SlOO. Home time since, aliout a year ago, the I'ourlh-Form Blasters met evening after evening to consider the unsatisfactory arrangement of iheir work in the scliool, and drew up a scheme for remodelling it ; the scheme was subnatled to the late Head Master, who took no ap- jjarent notice of it, but the present Head Master has since sanctioned two of the minor changes therein recommended, retaining, however the old hooks and the vexatious "library ;" 8101-SU'9. Describes "library "' and det.uls its ohjeeiionable features; 8110-&117. Approves the viceroy suggestion; 8118. Hoys come to Eton badly prepared ; 81 19-8121. The construing system overtasks ilie tutors; has 17 private pupils, and could not thoroughly attend to more ; it is a characteristic of the Eton system, that the Blasters do too niueh and the boys loo little ; would abandon the construing in the pupil- room, lengthen the school hours, and have the woik done by the pupil in school, receiving help only where it is required ; 8 1 2'-'-S 1 :> ) , MJS-SHQ. Uelative importance of private and school business ; 81-i5-SlJG. Promotion of pupils too rare; 8159-8164. Gener,illy the school work is extremely unsatis- factory ; the construing system of Eton would be admissible if the day were '_'4 hours longer and there were strength in proportion to do the work; 81G5-S1C8. Overwhelming pre- ponderance of Cambridge men among the Masters; while an accurate knowledge of languages is acquired, the Oxford ele- ment, — analysis of ihe argument and digest of the subject matter, — is neglected ; essays are also neglected, the result of which is that the Eton boys coin|)ele for Balliol scholarship.* at a decided disadvantage with candidates from Rugby or Marlliorough ; Eton boys not sufliciently inslrucled, and this is felt especially with respect to Greek iambics and Greek prose, and in transla- tions as contrasted witli original exercises ; 81G9. Blore objec- tions to the construing system; 8170-8180. In line seasons boy s spend more time in play th.m at work, — nuich mure at cricket than at Latin and Greek; Masters are overworked ; 8181-8187. Boys in the Fourth Form are fairly worked, wi:h hardly enough time for play; the Remove are overworked; 8193. The classes and the teaching might be easily reorganized if the Head Master had ihe [jower and the will to do it ; 8193-8198. Assistant Blasters should be permitted to meet and discuss the propriety of making changes; they do so at Harrow satisfac- torily; 8 199-8'JOO. Comparison of Harrow and Eton as to work, athletics and scho]arshi[)s ; the hard werking boys at Eton are not teased as at Harrow ; literary distinetmn valued somewhat more highly at Ilariow than at Eton; 8:201-8207. Holidays; 8208,8209. Tlie Head Blaster at Eton does not occupy a sufliciently high p't.sition ; the Assistant Blaster is scarcely recognized ; the Provost's power of obstruction enor- mous ; 8210-82IG. Shirking seems to be at the bottom of a great deal of evil at Eton ; a boy may do what is uroiig, but llie fault often seems to consist in his being found out ; 8217- 8221. Shirking and public-liouse visiting objectionable ; the latter less prevalent at Harrow and Rugby than at Elon ; 8222- 8224. Drinking to excess not prevalent at Elon, but the public- houses are much frequented ; smoking not allowed ; rules for the public-house visiting are framed and signed by the caplain of the boalf, and strictness as to language and behaviour is en- forced ; " cellar" described ; the public-houses are well managed, and the objectionable part is the dishonesty of the shii king system in connexion wilh them ; 822S-8247. Principal cause of the idleness of the oppidans and their admitted inferiority to the collegers is the patronage given to the games over the intellec- tual development of the boys ; the school prizes badly man.igcd ; none of the prize exercises ever recited, hardly any of them printed, and it is ofien through the Times that a Blaster dis- covers who has gained a prize; these things, uiih the preponde- rating influence of the "swells "of the school, the principal causes of the superiority of the collegers; 8248-82.TO. The collegers have a spirit of work brought about by the extra examinations they go in for and having always before them the competition lor their places for King's ; the oppidan portion of the Sixth Form consists of those who get there by slaying longest in the school; 8251, 8252. " Swells ;" the opinion that muscle is superior to brain has grown up at Eton; 8253-8264. Blasters join in some of the games, without creating any diffi- culty as to command over the boys; 8265-8270. Thinks the present plan of the chapel service on holidays very bad ; the boys look on it with a feeling very different from that with which they regard the Sunday service; 8271, 8272. Would suggest thv substitution of a short daily morning service, which might also do away with the morning prayers in the houses ; would have singing with the service ; 8273-S27S. Would ba S S ETON. 322 PUBLIC SCHOOLS COMMISSION :— 'ANALYSIS OF EVIDENCE. ETON Wai-ford, J. T., Esq., M.A.— con'. ' pleased to see some blasters at Eton who were not educated there ; some of the present Masters wouhl be glad of the infu- sion of fresll blood ; 8279, 8280. Amalgamation of oppidans and collegers desirable; was himself a colleger, and had a strong college feeling when at Eton ; the collegers were rather proud of the gown ; the ill-feeling which existed between the two bodies was quite as ir.uch on the side of tlie collegers as on that of the oppidans, if not more .so ; 8281-8283. WALTEH, JOHN, Esq., M. P., page 297. Having been at Eton eight years and having three sons there now, of course takes a great interest in the school ; nothing can be more fatal or mischievous than altering the character of Eton as one of the first classical schools in the country ; there is no foiinrlation so good for the education of an English gen- tleman as the classical education furnished at Eton and otiier of our great public schools; with a slight exception in favour of French, such as twelve months instruction, perhaps, in the Ue- move, it would not be desirable to make modern languages an essential portion of the curriculum of study at Eton; he would "ct rid of the extra charge for French ; thinks two French masters would be adcqu.ite for teaching French; 9359-9366. He would also abolish the extra charge for mathematics ; 9366. Would not give up classical repetition to introduce French ; tliinks constru- ing useful ; would not abolish the lower school ; would admit to the lower school at 10 years old, to the upper at 1 2 ; 9367- 9389. Anecdotes relating to proficiency in modern languages ; pure French could not be taught at Eton ; what he wants taught there is the grammar ; 9390-9396. It is a great accom- plishment to he a good linguist; hut the acquisilion of foreign languages is after all not of much practical utility, English being so much used on llie continent, and if learned at all foreign languages are best learned abroad; English composition was deemed the best test at Oxford ; foreign literature little read in England ; 9397-9412. Is adverse to competition among boys of tender years ; would not like his own son to compete for even the Newcastle scholarship; 9413, 9414. The subject pursued discursively ; 9414-9422. Prefers translation and re-translation to original composition ; knows nothing of the Rugby system ; 9430-9437. Thinks debating .societies are attended with good and evil eflects ; 9438-9440. Is not sure that it is desirable to force either mathematics or Latin verse composition, 9441- 9447. Kather than interfere with the classics at Eton in favour of a youth not going to the Universities and who required a particular scientific training for a profession ; he would in tlie case of his own son take him from Eton at 16 and get him the special training elsewhere ; objects to competition exami- nations for the civil service ; French may be necessary in many appointments, but it can be learned elsewhere better and more rapidly tlian at Eton; believes the accent maybe acquired at 15 or 16; illustrative instance; 9448-9455. Would introduce no new subjects into the school that are not applicable to the whole school ; the Instruction should be for the average pupils, not for individuals; therefore would not introduce tiie ]>li}sical sciences ; knt ws little of the German schools; 9456-9466. Objects to "leaving monev" and" leaving books;" 9467-9471. When at Eton himself, lie abolished the ■' ticket system ;" and leaving books might he abolished in a similar way ; 9472, 9473. Eton is called an expensive school ; but a girl's boarding school is quite as costly ; approves of dame's houses ; objects to hounds and sh-rking ; would prevent the use of public houses if possible ; approves the present fagging system, as inconsistent with and a pre- ventive of bullying ; 9474-9484. What strikes him especially at Eton at present as compared with what existed when he first went there is the kind and gentlemanly behaviour of the bo)S to each oth.r; 9485-9487. With regard to the degenerated literary tone of the oppidans, tliinks that the rela- tion between Eton and King's is an evil, and would rather have no privileged class at all ; at present the collegers are almost certain of a provision ; would prefer that the Eton Masters were oppidans; but thought the advantages and dis- advantages almost cojntcrbalanctd each other; 9488-9492. Wishes that what remains of the monitorial system at Eton were abolished ; and would make the privileges of the Sixth Form privileges of exemption and not privileges of jjower ; would exempt the Sixth Form from bounds but would not give them the power of setting punishments; mentions an instance which occurred at Winchester 18 years since, where a boy was ilogged not for a crime but a; an exhibition of power; 949J_ 9499. Thinks 600 a more maiuigeahle number than 80J for a school, but does not know how to fix a limit ; 9,5CO. Has never been able to discover what useful fucunions the Fellows at Eton discharge as Fellows ; it might be desirable that they should have definite work and no livings ; would rather that the Masters should be eligible to livings without being Fellows, or be Fellows without holding livings; 9501,9502. Bishop Chapman's sermons were good, those of the other Fellows were not hearil ; gives an opinion as to the Masters preaching ; 9503- d509. Would prefer a daily service to service on saints' days; 9510, 9511. Approves of the choral services in the chapel; 9512-9515. Would like to see music and drawing more gene- rally taught ; 9516, 9517. Wuuld like to see an extension of the lay element in the Provost and Fellows ; thinks the Head Master should be a clergyman, and tliat all the Masters should be Eton men ; difference as to the position of the Head Masters at Eton, Harrow, and Rugby; 9518-9529. Opinion as to relations between the Head Master and the Provost and Fel- W ALTER, J., Esq., M. P.— con(. lows; would make the Head Master absolute as regards school work ; opinion as to enlarging the Governing Body ; 9530- 9538. Opposed to prizes confined to the oppidans ; 9539, 9540. Miscellaneous remarks ; 9541-9550. WARRE, EDMOND, Esq., M.A., page 182. Is Assistant Classical Master at Eton and has been such two years ; was an oppidan; afterwards went to Oxford, — to B.iUiol and All Souls; and took his degree in 1859; 5281- 5285. The oppidans in his time were not inclined to .associate with the collegers ; the chief objection was the gown ; the same thing is still in operation ; collegers are not admitted to the full benefit of the social life of the school ; the oppidans acknowledge the intellectual superiority of the collegers, some deplore it, and the fact that the collegers obtain the New- castle is beginning to make a stir; the collegers come into the school better prepared than the oppidans ; 5286-5294. The same distinction prevails with regard to games; two years a^o the lower club of oppidans asked the collegers to join them, but the collegers refused : 5295, 5296. There are a few collegers in the debating .society ; a disagreeable boy would be blackballed, but intellectual merit has its weight there ; the alienation between the two classes does not exist in the debating society ; 5297, 5298. A colleger and an oppidan would scarcely walk together on a Sunday ; 5299. Has known " leaving books " given by colleger to oppidan and by oppidan to colleger, but that has been where they had both been in the cricket eleven ; collegers can be and have been in the eleven ; the physique of the collegers is inferior to what it was, and they do not infuse so much spirit into the games as the oppi- dans ; 5300-5302. The collegers have not more work than the oppidans, but they have more examinations and consequently work more for them ; 5303, 5304. Distinction in gaines is inore coveted tlian distinction in any other way ; speaking generally the oppidans occupy too much time with their amuse- ments and too little with their work ; time consumed in boating less than in cricket, it is rare that a hoy is in both the eight and eleven ; idling in boats; punting forbidden; 5305- 5317. Little or no smoking at Eton during the last two years ; 5317. More details as to boating ; the expense, boat races, locks, &c. ; 5318-5331. Since the race of the eight at Henley and the revival of the Wcstminler race, boys who were before named to the boats by favouritism now get in by merit ; 5332. Football also is a wonderful equalizer ; 5333. The captain of the boats has great power, and if he is a moral and high-principled fellow he can do a wonderful deal of good throughout the year ; 5334. More detail as to boat races ; never heard any evil effect in after life attributed to these boat races, neither here nor at Oxford ; boys and men unfit for boating .are obliged to leave it od'at once ; boating said by some to be the cause of lung disorders and to sow the seeds of con- sumption ; hut doctors deny this and he concurs with them ; the excitement at the time of race indisposes the whole school to work, but he questions whether the good does not outweigh the evil ; 5336-5349. In training for boating there are self- imposed rules as to abstinence from liquor and all kinds of dissipation, also from bathing, except a plunge before breakfast; 5330-5354. Swimming taught at Eton ; 5355-5359. No particular connexion between excellence at games and intel- lectual superiority observable ; 5360-5362. Never heard of more than one instance of a boy being compelled to play at cricket ; football is not compulsory ; 5363, 5:564. Expensive habits of the boys on the decline ; those who work hard at boating or cricket have not time to think about the adornment of their persons ; idlers who lounge about have nothing else to think of; extravagance sometimes encouraged by parents, who give their sons enormous amounts of pocket money ; he knows a boy who had 25/. in a pill box, and has heard of others having oOl. ; a boy, on an average, would bring with him to school 31, or 4/. ; 5365-5370. The volunteer movement has been beneficial in the School ; it is undergoing at School the .same change as about the country, namely, the drill is becoming less popular the rille practice more so ; the movement has brought out a class of boys who would neither row nor play at cricket ; it is quite voluntary ; 5371-5383. The Masters are more alive than formerly to the importance of discouraging extravagant habits in boys ; the tutors would notice extravagance in dress with disapprobation, the other boys with anything but approval; 5384-5386. Has not noticed an increase of luxurious habits among the boys; has discarded lounging arm-chairs; thinks the drinking and smokitig have diminished ; the revival of the Westminster race, &c., have tended to produce this result; 5387-5;>91 and 5398. There is more energy at fives and foot racing than there used to be j the objection to the games is their expense ; 100/. a year is spent in fives balls, 1,300/. a year in amtisements altogether; these amusements are, however, cconotnical if they produce health ; 5392-5397. Objection to the Eton hoys playing at Lord's ; 5399. Additional details as to cricket and boating ; 5400-5411. Thinks the energy infused of late into the games has done a wonderful deal of good ; it would be very desirable if we could make a like infusion into the school work ; 5412-5414. He feels very strongly in favour of the removal of the gown ; 5414. Thinks that if the boys were consulted as to its discontinuance, they would be very nearly equally divided on the point ; 5415-5417. WILDER, Rev. JOHN, M.A., page 14 c/ sej. (See evidence of GOODFORD, Rev. C. D., D.D.) MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. WINCHESTER. LIST OB^ WITNESSES. Date of Date of Name of Witness. -Examina- tion. Page. N.vME OF Witness. Examina- tion. Page. 1862. 1862. Rev. G. B. Lee, 3I.A., Warden of Win- May 29 323-331 Rev. G. B. Lee further examined May 30 363-367 chester Collese. W. A. Fearon, Esq. - - - - Dec. 15 367-376 Kev. G. Jloberly, D.C.L., Head Master May 30 331-3G2 J. U. Thresher, Esq. - - - - ,, 377-381 of Winchester College. 186.3. Mr. O. C. Aagoville, French Master - " 362, 363 A Junior Scholar of Winchester College Feb. 14 381-388 The College, Thursday, 29th May 1862. Earl of Clarexdox. Earl op Devon. PRESENT : Lord Lyttelton. Sir Stafford Northcote. Rev. W. H. Tho.mpson. II. Halford Vadghan, Esq. The earl OF CLARENDON in the Chair. The Rev. Godfrey B. Lee, M.A., examined. 1. [Lord Clarendon.) You are Warden of Win- chester College ? — Yes. 2. How long have you been so ? — I have been in residence about 14 months ; I have been elected longer. 3. You have been in the exercise of your duties here about 14 months? — Yes ; I have been resident here for many years besides that ; I was here for twenty-one years as a tutor. 4. As to the fines and so on. Question 4 with respect to fines is, " Have au}- material changes been '■ made in the system of letting and management " since the foundation of the school, and in particular " within the last 50 years" ? — I should think not within the last .50 years. 5. Are fines taken as fully as before : is the prac- tice at all discontinued ? — They are taken rather more fully than they used to be, and I should be very glad if the Commissioners would strengthen my hands in making the business a little more easy. I think we ought to take a little more. Not more than two years ago they were raised from I| years improved value. At present we take 2^ years ; and it is intended in a short time not to renew lea.ses for less than 2^ years improved value. That is cal- culated on the six per cent, tables. L^pon the former calculation they get seven per cent. It is not like buying freehold, but it gives them a fair return. It has been found to answer very well at New College, Oxford, which has never had any difficulty in dealing with the tenants on those terms. 6. What then is your proposition? — That we should take 2^ years in future instead of 2^ years ; and it the Commissioners would recommend that, it would strengthen my hands. Of course the burden of fight- ing for these fines falls upon me principally. All the letters come to me ; the correspondence and the odium rests with me. 7. There 'has been no intention on the part of the College of letting the leases run out ? — Yes, we must do it ; it is the only way by which we can in- crease our income, and meet such things as we have to do ; and therefore I propose, as they have done at some of the colleges at Oxford, to let some run out every year. Of course, if we were to do as, I believe, the Ecclesiastical Commissioners do, i.e., not renew any leases, we should have no income to go on with, and must shut up until the leases run out. The only way is to do it by degrees. 8. With a view to the ultimate discontinuance of it altogether ? — Yes, certainly. 9. {Mr. Thompson.) I understand you to say that is in progress at present. There is a fair prospect of that being done within a certain number of years ? — It must take some time, otherwise in the meantime we should be deprived of income. 10. But it is in operation ? — Yes ; I have got the consent of the Fellows, and we have declined to renew three leases this year. 11. Were they of considerable value ? — Yes ; in two cases the property was in the county, and we wished of course to get property in the county more particularly at rack rent. 12. Question 6: "Can you furnish any informa- " tion showing the alterations in value of the pro- " perty, or any part of the property of the school " since its foundation, and particularly within the " last 50 years, and the rates of any increase or de- " crease that may have taken place " ? — I presume whatever answer would apply to any property through- out the country would apply to this. 1 felt I could not give a satisfactory answer to that question. 13. Your man of business would be better able to do it ?— -Yes. 14. {Lord Devon.) You have a man of business ? — Yes, a steward and land agent. The steward in fact, answered that and the next question, though I am responsible for it. 15. [Lord Clarendon.) 7. In this account you state the receipts for the year 1860 at 17,622/. os. 5d., does that represent the total income of the College ? — Yes ; the receipts were 17,622/. .5s. 5d., and the expenditure was 20,098/. 6s. Id. 16. [Lord Devon.) Have you not dividends upon stock ? — Yes, included in this return. 17. Then there is 18,000/. from the Queen, but not yet paid ? — Yes. At the request of Her Majesty we sold an estate adjoining Osborne, called the Bar- ton estate, and we shall invest the purchase-money in land, so that practically it will be only an exchange of one property for another. 18. What are "meads?" — The play-ground. That is the word we use to designate the play- ground. 19. [Lord Clai-endon.) 8. "By the original sta- " tutes the surplus revenue was ordered to be laid " by for the advantage of the College ; that statute " has been repealed by the Oxford University Com- " missioners ; but the Warden and Fellows have not " availed themselves of the permission to divide the " whole surplus." What is the meaning of that ? — I mean they have not always divided the whole surplus. When they have had rather a good year they have not divided the whole as they might ; they have laid by a portion. They might have a short year next year, and they would have something to fall back upon. They have not each year divided as according to the ordinance of the Commissioners they might have S s 2 ■WINCHESTBE Jicv. G. B. Lee. 29 Stay 1862. 324 PUBLIC SCHOOLS COJIMISSION :— MINUTES OF EVIDENCE, WINCHESTER. Rev. G. D. Lee. 29 May 18G2. (louo. They hare thought it better to go on as before. Tlie 27th chiuse of tiie ordinauco says, "The Warden '• and Fellows sliall not, by reason of any clause or " provision in the existing statutes of the College, be " prohibited or restrained from dividing amongst " themselves, or otiierwise disposing of the clear '• surplus of the corporate revenues of the College, as " they might have done if the statutes had contained " no such clause or provision." 20. (Lord LyttelioH.) In 1859 yon had a balance in hand in consequence of that system? — Yes, and the surplus expenditure of 1860 was paid out of it. 21. Uo I understand the Warden and Fellows have an absolute discretion who they give the livings to ? —Yes. 22. {Lonl Clareudou.) If they are not given to the Fellows ? — Yes ; the holders of some of these livings were unconnected with the College altogether. 23^ (Lord Li/ttcUoii.) There is nothing to be called a l)inding usage or custom as to that ? — No. 24. (Mr. ThompsfDi.) When was this valuation (9.) of the livings made? — That valuation is a return made by the Fellows ; I sent for it for you. 25. For the purpose of this inquiry ? — Yes ; I thought that was the best way of giving it. 26^ (Lord Deroii.) I should like to ask whether there are many instances in which the livings have been given to assistant-masters not being Fellows ? — There are only Mr. Payne and Mr. Ridding ; Mr. Payne was an assistant-master. Mr. Ridding, formerly under-master, was presented to the vicar- age of Andover some years before he was elected Fellow. Some of the others were persons not con- nected with the College. One (Mr. McQhie) had been a curate many years. He was not connected with the College : nor Mr. Stewart of Portsea. Most of the others were fellows of the College. 27. (Mr. Thompson.) Do the livings pass down the Fellows as at colleges in the universities ? — Yes ; I believe that has been the habit. 28. There is no dh'ection regulating your ecclesi- astical patronage ? — Not in the statutes originally, I believe. 29. (Lord Devon.) How many Fellows are there? >— Ten ; they are to be reduced to six. 30. (Mr. 'Thompson.) Are there 10 now ?— Yes; none have died since the Oxford University Com- missioners ordinance; in fact, not for many years — 11 years. 31. (Lord Clarendon.) Now we come to the lease- hold property. You say, 18,000/. is to be invested iu the purchase of real estate ? — -Yes. 32. The estate has been selected ? — Yes, it has. I do not know that it will quite swallow up the whole of the money ; if not, the balance must go into the hands of the accountant-general until it is invested in laud. We .ire not at liberty to part with money paid to us for land sold under any circumstances whatever. For instance, the other day we got a small sum from Government for permission to carry a drain under the mill pond of the College, and although we have been at a heavy expense in draining there, we cannot touch that money except to invest it in land. Whenever any property is touched in any way, or any advantage gained, we are obliged to invest the proceeds in land. 33. Where is the estate you are about to purchase? — A few miles hence ; at a place called Hambledon, in this county. 34. Is that selected merely liecause it is a good investment ? — Yes; it is within a convenient distance. 35. {Mr. Thompson.) When you say you must purchase "land" you do not exclude "houses?" — We m.ay Ijuy houses ; we have done so lately. We wanted a house. We may buy houses as well as land ; land is what we wish to have if possible. 36. (Lyord Clarendon.) "Besides the foregoing " properties, which are held in trust for the College, " the following are held upon special trusts." What is the meaning of that ? — The column at the right hand (which I added) shows that. These are administered prnctically by me ; theoretically by me and those in whom they are vested. You will see the first is " Bed- " minster fund for exhibitions at the university." With resjiect to those trusts, I should very much like to ask whether the Commissioners have any intention of dealing difterently with them ? If tlicy have not, I have nothing to say ; if they have I sho.uld have a good deal to sa}'. For instance, we will take the Bedminster fund ; suppose the Commissioners were to say, " These exhibitions ought not to be given " away without 'a sjjecial examination," I should have something to say. These exhibitions were left for boys who had not sufficient talent to gain scholar- ships at New College. They are given to young men who are poor, as an assistance to enable them to get a university education. But I do not wish to go into this question unless the Commissioners should express a wish to alter the manner in which the trusts are administered. This Bedminster trust, for instance, which is a very large one ; it now amounts to 15,600/., and produces 468/. per annum. As I have stated, that fund was left entirely to be given in exhibitions to boys who do not succeed in getting to New College, i. e., whose talent does not enable them to do so, to help them to proceed to the -university, to obtain a university education. 37. Are those exhibitions given upon any exami- nation ? — No. 38. How are they given ? — By selection, by the Warden, Head Master, and Under Master. 39. But they select according to the terms of the foundation ? — Yes ; they generally select boys who are poor and who have a good moral character. Many of them, perhajis, would not go to the university at all unless they had that kind of assistance. 40. What is the date of that bequest ? — I can state to-morrow. 41. (Lord Lt/ttelfvn.) The terms of the foundation are entirely attended to? — Yes; some time ago, having some notion we might wish to deal difterently with the trust, I applied to one of the Charity Commis- sioners, and he said, " If you were to bring this " matter before us we should on no account allow " you to deal differently with the trust. Nor, I am " pretty certain, would the Court of Chancery. No- " thing but an Act of Parliament would release you." We have not the slightest wish to deal difli^rently with it ; but I wish rather to know what the mind of the Commissioners is. 42. (Mr. Thompson.) Do you think, as at pre- sent administered, it is very salutary ? — I think it is very salutary indeed. It enables us to give assistance to boys of good moral character, who have not talent enough to gain scholarships at the university. I believe so long as it is faithfully administered, it is a very valuable trust. 43. In how many cases per annum do you sup- pose you are able to give that assistance ? — The list was so full that last year there was only one to give away. I think there will be only one or two this year. 44. What is the value of them ? — £50 a year is the largest. 45. Fixed by the terms of the endowment ? — No, I think not ; some are smaller. We have never given more than 50/. In the case of vPry poor boys we have the additional aid of the superannuates fund. 46. The words would allow you, if none of it has been anticipated, to give a larger sum ? — Yes, certainly ; but you would have fewer in number on the list. 47. (Lord Lyttelton.) How many years are they for ?' — Four years. 48. On going to the university ? — Yes. 49. They are given on selection on the grounds of good character and of poverty ? — Yes. 50. (Mr. Tho7npso7i.) Do they go to Oxford ? — They may go to Oxford or Cambridge. They are only given to boys who have not ability enough to gain scholarships at New College, and those boys are selected for good conduct and poverty. I think PUBLIC SCHOOLS COMMISSION : — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 325 it is very valuable to the school to be able to reward such boys here. 51. {Lord Lyttelton.) It has never been suggested that tlie terms of the foundation have not been attended to ? — No ; never. 52. (^Lord Clarendon.) May those exhibitioners go to any college they like ?— They may go to any college at either Oxford or Cambridge. 53. {Mr. Vaughan.) Is it specifted in the deed for wliat qualilications they are to be given ? — I never read the deed, but it was for boys who should not be able to get to New College. 51. Are those the terras ? — Yes ; it is analogous to the super.annuates fund below, which is a large fund. 55. {Mr. Thompso7i.) Are the boys who go to New College elected entirely by merit ? — Yes ; en- tirely. 56. {Mr. Vaugltan.) Are those the terms of the ordinance ? — Yes. 57. {Lord Clarendon.) Have you anything to say upon the third, the Duncan prize fund? — No ; that is a mathematical prize, a small prize for maihe- niatics. There is an examination. That is given exclusively by examination. 58. Then comes the superannuates fund for ex- hibitions ? — That stands on the same ground as the others, except that the trustees are diftt^rent. 59. Is that also for good conduct and poverty ? — Yes ; that is for boys superannuated without going to New College. 60. Will you explain the meaning of " superannu- ated without going to New College " ? — That is to say, they have reached the age of eighteen, and not being elected to New College they cannot remain on the foundatiou any longer, and are obliged to go to the university on their own account. 61. {Mr. Vaughan.) With regard to the age of eighteen, is superannuation at that age approved by those who manage the superannuates fund ? — I think 30 ; but the matter has bceu discussed lately, I may say it is under discussion now> When at Oxford, from the young men I have sometimes seen come up, I always hail doubts whether the age might not be extended a little. 62. Does it not cut them off from a year's educa- tion, which is spent profitably at other schools, and might be spent profitably here ? — We have a system of this kind — a boy, for instance, who is not nineteen at the time of examination but will be so before the next election, if he pass a good examination can be recommended to the electors of New College, and that gives him another year, i. e., if he be a good schol.ar, and so on ; so that practically' a boy is nearly nineteen before he loses his chance. 63. {Lord I^gtteJlnn.) Is not eighteen the age under the old statutes ? — They may be elected up to nine- teen, " non ultra decimum-nonum." 64. {Lord Clarendon.) I suppose tlie Warden and masters assume that the boys to wiiom they give ex- hibitions will not be able to pass for New College ; they are not examined, and fail ? — \ es, certainly ; it is after that examination. 65. It is after they have been examined, and have failed ? — Yes. 66. {Mr. Vaughan.) With regard to the super- annuation, does not that virtually send your men to the contests in the universities, Oxford particularly, a year earlier than the other public schools send their men to competition ? — I thought tnat was the usual age at pulilic schools. Practicall}', many men are as old as within two months of 19 at election ; when I was .admitted at New College we had a year of gr.ace, and now they only require a recommendation from the electors to give it. 67. {Mr. Thompson.) In point of fact, they do not lose the good men unless they cannot help it ? — No. 68. {Lord Lyttelton.) What are the " Warden and scholars' clerks ? " — Those are the legal terms for the Warden and Fellows ; all modern deeds arc worded so. he words in the original statutes d scholares pnedicti omncs et singuli" (except jMiider's kin) " cum decimum octavum ai'tatis ()9. T " Quod the foi " suffi annum complcverint pro pcrpetuo expelhuitur." AVhen of that age they must immediately leave ? — Yes. 70. {Mr. Vaughan.) But I suppose you Avould consider at the time you were admitted at New College the age of 18 was difierent from what it wa3 in the days of the founder for the purposes of educa- tion. Did they not go to the universities earlier ? They did in those days very much earlier, we know. We have power to alter that ; we are not bound by it. 71. {I^ord Lyttelton.) Do you conceive you have the power to alter a specific provision of the old statutes ?— I thiuk the Warden and Fellows of New College li.ave the power, witli our consent, to elect at any age. 72. {Mr. Thompson.) It is their doing, not yours ? — Yes ; we could prevent boys staying in the scliool. 73. {Lord Lyttelton.) You could amend the statutes of the College with the consent of the visitor ? — Yes. 74. {Mr. Thompson.) Could you do that as well as they ? — Yes ; I think so. 75. {Lord L.yttelton.) Have you ihe same power as to modern ordinances ? — No ,: we may make regu- lations and byelaws according to the powers given us by clauses 8 and 34 of the ordinances, and we may amend the statutes with the consent of the visitor, " suliject to the provisions of the section marked xl. '■ in the Queen's Printer's copy of tlie said Act." — Vide cl. 41. 76. You would want the consent of the Queen and the Privy Council ? — Yes. 77. There is a general power for the amendment of those statutes ? — Yes. 78. {Lord Deron.) Is the 25,000/. consols "to " increase stipends of the two masters" the Goddard benefaction r — Yes. 79. {Lord Lyttelton.) There is also the Goddard scholarship ? — Yes ; that is a prize answering to the Newcastle soliolarship at Eton. 80. Is it of the same value ? — I do not know what the emoluments of the Newcastle are ; this is 25Z. s, year. 81. Is it given upon an examination ? — Yes ; they are examined here. 82. {Mr. Thompson.) They can take it with them ? — -Yes. 83. How often does that fall in ? — Every four years ; properly speaking, it is for three years. The Pitt Club, in London, give us an exhibition every fourth year. Suppose we liegan this year, for example; boy A would be elected Goddard scholar for four years ; next year B v.-onld be elected for four years ; in the third year C would be elected for four years ; in the fourth year there would be no Goddard scholarship to give away ; and then the Pitt Club comes in and gives a scholarship of equal value, or rather more, i. e. 30/. instead of 25/. per annum. We have an examination as usual, and the Trustees of the Pitt Club pay the boy, instead of the college. AVe have notliiug whatever to do with that fund, and therefore it docs not appear in our accounts. 84. {L^ord Clarendon.) We will now go second head ? — May I understand we have the question of the exhibitions. 85. Have you anything further to say them ? — No ; except th.at I conscientiously that these exhibitions, as they are administered at present, are very valuable, and I should be sorry to see them administered in any other way. 86. But the superannuates do undergo an cxami- n.ation ? — Yes, the superannuates do ; and I ouglit to mention that while the Bedniinster fund is re- stricted to boys who cannot get to New College, tluat is not the case with the superannuates fund ; and it was found lately when the scholarships at New College were opened, and no longer led to fellow- ships, those exhibitions operated against New College, Ss 3 WINCHESTEE. Rev. G. B. Lee. 29 May 1862, to the closed about believe 326 PUBLIC SCHOOLS COMMISSION : — MINUTES OF EVIDEKCE. WIXCHHSTER. Km. G. B. Lee. •i'i May 18G2. That is to say, instances occurred in wliicli, previous to the examination for New College, a boy obtained a scholarship at some other college at Oxford, and then on the strength of his good character obtained a Bedrainstjr exhibition of 50/. a year, which placed him in a better position than if he had gained a scholarship at New College. That would operate to the disadvantage of New College, because thereby they would lose, perhaps, one of the best scholars in the school ; and the Warden and Fellows agreed that they would not give the superannuates exhibitions exclusively, as before ; they would give them, if they saw good reason, as they had never been given before, i.e., to boys who went to New College. Con- sequently, last year when there was a superannuates exhibition to be given away, we divided it between the two best boys who went to New College. 87. {Mr. Vaughan.) New College now is not entirely open to public competition ? — No ; not to Bcholars of other schools. 88. Then suppose a young man obtains a scholar- ship in a college where there is free competition, he has been successful in a larger sphere, has he not, that being open to the free competition of all schools ? —Yes. 89. So that the free competition of all schools must be acting as an extra stimulus to exertion on any boy intending to compete in open colleges beyond what the more circumscribed competition of New College would afford ? — Yes. 90." Was it not then for the good of Winchester school that the boys during their career at Winchester should have looked forward to this extra competition? .— Yes ; but it operated to the prejudice of New Col- lege, because they got only the second best scholars. If they had failed they would have fallen back on New College. If they got their scholarships at Ox- ford, and then got a Winchester exhibition, they would be in a better position than if they had gone to New College. 91. {Mr. Thompson.) In fact, I presume, that if New College had been out of the question you would rather have encouraged that practice among your boys of going in and competing for entirely free scholarships ? — Yes ; they are at liberty to go in and compete for any scholarships they like. 92. Not only would they be at liberty, but you would think it for the credit of the school that they should do so ? — Yes ; but we 'are so connected with New College, we do not like to injure it. 93. {Mr. Vaughan.) Have you made any practi- cal regulation which puts a stop to it ? — Yes ; that we would not restrict the superannuates exhiliitions to those who failed to get scholarshii>s of New College. 94. {Sir S. Northcote.) Would a boy be qualified to take a Bedminster exhibition who, a month before or less, had got a scholarship at another college ? — Certainly, he would not be prohibited. 95. The value of a Bedminster may be as much as 50Z. a year ? — Yes. 96. Practically, how are the Bedminster ex- hibitioners selected. Who selects them ? — The Warden, the Head Master, and the under master. 97. In what way is that done. Is it on the re- commendation of the Head Master ? — No ; we meet together and discuss the merits of the boys. 98. Is it ascertained before that the boys are incompetent to get scholarships at New College ? — Yes ; it is after they have failed. 99. No boy is selected for a Bedminster exhibition until he has been in for a scholarship and failed ? — Just so. 100. Sujipose having failed for New College he gets a scholarship elsewhere, is he liable to be divested of the exhibition ? — No ; he would never be divested, having once got it. 101. He would hold it absolutely ? — Yes. 102. Have boys ever got those exhibitions and got scholarships in other colleges ? — They have got scholarships at other colleges, and then got a Win- chester exhibition. 103. Would you yourself give a Bedminster to a boy who came next to those who got the New College scholarships, or would you have any regard at all to how he had done in examination ? — Yes ; I should take everything into consideration ; his poverty, his character, and of course his work, his intellectual qualifications. 104. So that it would not be purely an ad miseri- cordiam grant ? — No. 105. In fact it would almost amount to an additional scholarship. If you saw that there were three vacancies at New College, you would elect four boys, three to New College scholarships, and one to a Bedminster exhibition ? — No. The time of election is totally diflferent, and the electors are not the same ; a different body altogether elects to the New College scholarships. 106. But in the first instance, all the boys who are candidates for New College, would have to undergo an examination ; we will say three are elected ; then before giving the Bedminster away, which we will suppose you have to give away, would you take into consideration the result of that examination ? — We are quite at liberty to do so. 107. Do you practically do so ? — I have only given one away, which was last year. We certainly did so then. 108. You took the next boy in the examination ? — No ; we took into consideration his work here, and his intellectual qualifications. 109. That boy having got that exhibition might go to Oxford and hold it with a scholarship at another college ? — Yes. 110. But if he got a New College scholarship, he could not hold anything else with it ? — He would have got that, because he could not get a New College scholarship. 111. What I want to know is, whether a boy who gets a Bedminster exhibition may not be better off than a boy who goes to New College ? — Yes. he might, if he went to Oxford and got a good scho- larship, which is possible, but not very probable. 112. {3Ir. Thompson.) What is the value of the scholarships at Oxford for an undergraduate ? — £90, exclusive of room rent and tuition. 113. It would be difficult, I presume, for an under- graduate to get anything better than that ?— -They are as good at Corpus. 114. {Lord Devon.) With regard to the super- annuates, I do not quite know how that stands. Those I understand you say, are given not to boys who fail in the examination for New College, but to boys who are too old to go up ? — They used to be given much in the same way as the Bedminster, t. e., to those who had failed to get to New Col- lege ; but as I said before, as we were not excluded by the terms of this fund, (it was a subscription fund — the subscription only ceased a few years back), we are at liberty, if we choose, to give them to those who go to New College. 115. Praclically, how many are given a-year ? — I have only been here one year ; we had only one to give away last year, and that we divided between the two best scholars elected to New College, in order to encourage the best boys to compete for New College. 116. You may divide it as yon please ? — Yes. 117. Then in fact you have only made the change at one election ? — Yes. 118. Is it required of a superannuate that he should arrive at a certain age without submitting himself to an examination ? — No ; he must have sub- mitted to an examination. 119. Then a superannuate may have failed in examination ? . — Yes. 120. {Lord Li/ftelfon.) He must be a scholar ? — Yes, he must be a scholar ; because, until recently, no commoner was eligible. 121. May a commoner be elected now? — Yes. 122. Or a peer?— Yes. 123. Whose endowment was the superannuates PUBLIC SCHOOLS COMMISSION: — MINUTKS OF EVIDENCE. oZi fund? — It was a subscription fund set on foot liy Warden Dobsou in 1732. 124. (iVr. Vanghan.) I do not know the distinc- tion between what you call superannuates and those who have failed to get scholarships ? — A super- annuate is one who has reached the age beyond which he cannot retain his scholarshii). 125. Then do you confine the Bedminster to those who may still undergo another examination ? — No ; we do not give it to a boy until he is just going to the university ; we never give it to a boy until he is at the university as an undergraduate. 126. {Lord Devon.) Is there any trust fund of that endowment or any instrument giving the terms of it ? — There is a record of the superannuates fund. It is by subscription. Even the present Head Master and second master used to subscribe to that fund, but it had reached such a sum they said, " It is uuneces- " sary to go on with the subscription." 127. (Lord Clarendon.) Part II. 2, " The " original constitution was a warden, ten priest " fellows, seventy scholars, head master (infor- " mator), under master (ostiarius), three cha|)lains, " three clerks, {i. e. singing men), and sixteen " choristers." The Oxford Commissioners have re- duced the ten fellowships to six, have they not? — Yes. 128. On what ground did they do that ? — I do not know. 129. You do not know why they stopped at six ? — No ; I suppose they thought the governing body ought not to consist of less than the warden and six fellows. 130. What is the precise dutj' of a fellow ? — They are the trustees of the College. One of them is sub- warden and two of them are bursars. The bursar is the person who has the chief of the work, the con- stant work. The assistant bursar does not do much, The sub-wardeu is obliged to be hero at certain times, and he is responsible for everything if the Warden is ill. 131. You say you think a reduction of the numljer of Fellows would be injurious to the interests of the College? — I said ''I believe that any further reduc- " tion in the number of Fellows would be injurious " to the interests of the College, because it would " deprive the College of the means of providing " for superannuate masters." 132. You consider that any further reduction in the number of Fellows would be injurious to the interests of the College, because it would dejirive the College of the means of providing for masters who were superannuated ? — Yes. 133. In short, you look upon a fellowship as a superannuate allowance ? — I think it might be so looked upon. 13-1. Is it so looked upon? — -I believe it has been so looked upon ; I will not say it has been followed out. It has not been followed out as at Eton. 135. How many of the existing Fellows were masters ? — Only one was a master here ; one was a tutor at New College. The remaining eight were never masters. 136. {Mr. Thompson.) What was their claim ? — They were fellows of New College, to whom a decided preference is given by the statutes. In fact, they elected from those who had been fellows of New College, but that statute has been modified, and the Commis- sioners seem to have contemplated rather the election of those who had been employed here in tuition. (Clause. 5 of the ordinance.) "In elections to fellow- " ships within the College the electors shall (subject " to the provisions in that behalf of the statutes in " force for the time being) choose the person who " shall appear to them to be of the greatest merit, " and most fit to be a Fellow of the College as a place " of religion, learning, and education. The pre ■ " ference given by the existing statutes to those who " are or have been Fellows of New College shall be " extended alike to the master, usher, and assistant- " masters of the school at Winchester College for the " time being, and to those who shall have held any " of the said olRcos, and to those who shall have been " educated for two years at the said school." No fellowship has fallen vacant since this ordinance was made. 137. {Lord Lyttelton.) That gives a preference? ■ — That retains a preference to certain persons, and extends it to others. 138. {Lord Clarendon.) A system has been fol- lowed then of late years in the election of Fellows, which is not that which you contemplated when you said that a further reduction of them would be in- jurious ? — No. 139. I would still ask you, what are the duties of these Fellows. How long do they reside ? — They are very uncertain about that. The Oxford Commissioners repealed the statute -absolutely about resilience, and gave us leave to make new statutes. I ani making preparations to do so pending this Commission. By clause 8 of the ordinance, the statute as to residence is positively repealed. " The provisions respecting " residence of Fellows, &c. shall be henceforth void." 140. That was in reliance upon fresh statutes being made ? — Yes. 141. That was done four years ago, in 1857? — No ; to tell you the truth, the late Warden omitted to make new statutes. 142. What were the old rules with respect to re- sidence ? — The old rule, or rather, the usage was, that the bursar was always resident, and one or two of the others used to be resident. There were two or three resident >vheu I was here as a boy, and there has been generally tliat number; but there is no pre- cise rule for it which has been followed of late years, except in the case of the bursar. The Warden is bound to be here at certain times. Of course, all are bound to be here when summoned to come to the quarterly meetings, or other meetings from time to time. 143. Can you say then, except with reference to the supei-annuation of the masters here, that the total abolition of the fellowships would be injurious to the school? — I consider it would be a detriment to the College that the Fellows, a valuable board of trustees, should be further reduced. It would lie prejudicial to our interests and entirely contrary to the spirit of the foundation ; you would be annihilating William of W^'keham's constitution altogether. We should have no govei'ning body at all for any purposes. 144. But as these Fellows never reside, nor ever do anything for the benefit of the school, will you tell us why the abolition of them, without reference to the statutes, but merely with reference to the inte- rests of tlie school, wonld be injurious ? — It would be a great advantage, I think, to retain the fellowships as they do at Eton, as a superannuation for the masters. 145. {Mr. Vaughan.) Should it not in that case be proportionate. Should not the payment of the Fellows as superannuate masters be proportionate to the pay they had as masters ? — No, I think not ; because there are no means here for any master except the Head Master to lay by money at all. I consider it utterly impossible lor any master here at present to do that, except the Head Master, who is in receipt of a large income, when the school is full. I consider it impossible for any other person to lay by any money here at all. 146. Do you consider the proper footing upoa which such a matter should be put is, that masters should be under-paid at the time they are doing their work with the prospect of having somethuig of this sort to fall back upon in their old age ? — That is not the way I have put it. I never said they were under-paid. 147. I thought that you considered they were under-paid ? — They cannot lay by money to retire upon. I think no one but the Head Master is in a position to lay by money which would enable a man with a family to retire upon ; a master has a com- fortable income while at work ; Imt a man cannot go on with schoolwork all his life, and, therefore, it is a S s4 WINCHHBTEIi. lieo.G.B.Zet. 29 May 1862. 328 PUBLIC SCHOOLS COMMISSION :— MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. Rev. G.B.Lee. 29 May 18G2. WINCHESTER, good thing to liave these fellowships to full back upon. . 148. {Lord Lytlehon.) Is there any limit to the value of the livings which the Fellows may hold ? — No ; there is no limit. The livings hero are not very valuable. 149. Then if they happened to have any other living from any other quarter, might they hold that with their fellowships ?— Yes, they might. 150. {Mr. Vaiighan.) Are you aware of the emoluments of the masters generally ?— Yes, pretty well. I could not take upon myself to s.ay exactly ; in fact, I do not know whether they are down here. I have not read all the masters' answers. 151. Would it meet your views at all, with regard to o-iving a proper remuneration to masters, that a portion of the fund now given to the Fellows should be given to increase tlie stipends of the actual mas- ters. Would that meet your views ? — Those fellow- ships Avhich are to be suppressed, are to be converted into scholarships. 152. But with reference to the further suppression of which Lord Clarendon spoke, would that meet your views ? — It would not meet my views that more should be suppressed. I do not think the Head Master ought to have more, because he has already a liberal allowance (750Z.), and I think he makes a very considerable income from his boarders. The second master has about 580/. per ann., besides capitation fees from the commoners. The stipends are stated here. I can only say, I should be very sorry to see the fellowships reduced for that purpose. 153. {J^ord Lijttclton.) The Fellows have entirely co-ordinate powers with the Warden in the adminis- tration of the affairs and property ? — The Warden has no power to transact what are called the majora negotia without the consent and assistance of the Fellows. 154. 'I presume this question of the fellowships was fully considered by the Oxford Commissioners ? — Yes ; certainly. 155. {Lord Devon.') You mentioned that there was no precise time during which any one of these gentlemen has to reside practically ?^E.Ycept the bursar ; he must be resident. 156. And the others maybe non-resident? — Wo have only one residence here, except two or three rooms, like that we are sitting in now, which would do for a single man. 157. May a Fellow be married? — The statutes are silent on this point. The reason of that is obvious, only priests are eligible, and priests were not married in those days. 158. May they be married now ? — Yes, they may. 159. Since you have been here, or at an}' jirevious period of which you are cognizant, how many Fellows have lieen resident ? — About two in my time. 160. Are those Fellows bound to attend in chapel and take part in the service, analogous to canons in cathedrals ? — They arc not compelled to do so. 161. Do they take any part in the service ? — There is no compulsion. They have done so. They are not compelled. 162. So that they have no specified duties in con- nection with the performance of religious duties ? — No ; they always attend and take part in the service of the chapel. We have power to alter the sta- tute as to residence. I have prep.ired a draft of a new statute. I should be very sorry the Fellows should not reside ; some of them wish to reside more than they do. 16.3. How many apartments .ire there for single men ? — About three very fair apartments. 164. And one house ? — One bad house, which admits a family. 165. Do they dine in the hall ? — No, never. 166. There is a high table ? — That is only at certain times, not regularly. The boys dine at one o'clock. 167. Do they live together ; have they a common dining room ? — They have j but they only use that occasionally. They have a dinner from the kitchen opposite. 168. As they have no duties to perform in chapel, will you pass on to the other duties they have with regard to the school or college. You spoke of them as the governing body ; in what way are they to exercise any government here ? — I am obliged to have their consent for all the more important business of the College. 169. In case of any alteration you might think it necessary to make, for instance, in the diet of the collegers, you would have to consult them ? — Yes. 170. You would have to call a meeting of the body ? — Yes. All those alterations which have been made by the Warden and Fellows of late years have emanated from them, and been carried out by them. 171. Suppose there was any question of the studies of the school, as far as there was any alteration, would you have to consult the Fellows ? — Yes. I think they would be bound to interfere in a case of that kind. They elect the master, and would be bound to see the master did his Awij. If he did not give the boys a proper education, they would be bound to interfere. 172. {Mr. T/ioiiijjsoii.) They strengthen your hands ? — Yes. 173. {I^ord Dccon.) Those are duties of a casual or occasional character ; are there any duties con- nected witli the foundation they perform ? — Only the bursar and sub- warden. 174. The sub-warden acts in your necessary absence — Yes. And he is one of the electors of New College. 175. That is only one of the Fellows ? — Yes. 176. The bursar is the other you mentioned ?— Yes ; he keeps the books. I do not keep the actua. books. 177. {Lord Clarendon.) The Warden appoints the choristers, does he not ? — Yes. 178. And a schoolmaster ? — Yes. 179. Who is the schoolmaster ? — They have a separate schoolmaster, and a separate boarding es- tablishment independent of the school for them. ISO. Are the duties of the choristers in the cathe dral ? — No ; solely in the chapel here. It is different from the cathedral. They are poor boys of a lower rank in life than the scholars, and ai'e selected from a different class. They have a good commercial edu- cation, and afterwards are apprenticed to any trade they select with the approbation of the Warden. 181. Have they a school-room ? — They have a scliool-room. They board and lodge in the school- master's house, which is in this street. A separate establishment altogether. 182. They sing in the chapel every day ? — We do not have choral service every day ; it is too long for the boys. 183. {Mr. T/ioiiipson.) Do all the boys attend service in the chapel every day ? — Yes ; but it is an abbreviated service. 184. You are not bound by the Act of Uniformity? . — We look upon this service as a kind of family prayers. 185. {Sir S. JVortficote.) Should you see any objection to the Head Master, or any of these as- sistant-masters being appointed Fellows while they hold their masterships ? — I think it would be very objectionable. We should have a sort of imperium in imperio, which would be very embarrassing, I think. 186. In what respect would there be an imperium in imperio ? — They would be the governed body and the governing body at the same time. 187. With regard to the new statutes, who are to make them ? — The Warden and Fellows with the consent of the Visitor. 188. I think you say, you have a draft of some new statutes ? — I have a draft in my desk which I have held my hand about, waiting to see the result of this Commission. PUBLIC SCHOOLS COSOIISSIOK : — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 329 189. Would there be any olijcction to show us that draft ? — I have hardly read It myself. ISO. The proposed statutes are not j-our own ? — I drew them up with the assistance of a barrister. 191. {Mr. Thompson.) Do you conceive you could govern the College efficiently without the aid of a body such as the Fellows ? — During the many years 1 have known the College, I think the Fellows have been very useful to the Warden in giving ad- vice in the many improvements and changes which Lave taken place. 1 know the advice of some of them has been very valuable, and has assisted in carrying out improvements. \9'2." {Lord Lrjttellon.) I apprehend the Warden and Fellows could not interfere with the studies of the school ? — No ; they do not interfere unless some great cause in shown. If they saw such a cause they would. 193. You conceive they have the power to do so, strictly speaking ? — Yes ; because the masters are remotivi by them. 194. {Mr. Thompson.) They do not interfere in the introduction of new books ? — Yes. 195. Nor new studies, I suppose ? — They would be consulted about them. 196. Only better editions of books would be re- commended, I suppose ? — No. 197. You conceive the ^^'ardcn and Fellows have a right to be consulted ? — Yes ; if there are any great changes. For instance, when the Head Master wished to have an additional French master, he came to me and said, " Would you object to Mr. So and so " being appointed," and so on. 198. You not having to provide fur him ? — No. 199. {Lord Li/ttelton.) What Dr. :Mobcrly says is, " In all matters within the schools, I appre- " hend that the Head Master is supreme, there " being at all times an appeal from him to the War- " den on any subject relating to the scholars, or any " of the officials of the College ? " — That refers solely to the books, not to the conduct of the school. 200. Is that correctly stated ? — I should be in- clined to doubt that. 201. Because you observe the " commoners " are excluded. He says, " There being at all times an " appeal from him to the Warden on any subject " relating to the scholars." If that is to be strictly understood, it means the scholars, not the com- moners ? — Of coarse he might teach his commoners as he pleases. We have no power over them. 202. [Lord CUtrendon.) Are there any stated meetings of the Warden and the Fellows ? — Yes ; four in the year regularly, and others if required. 203. A few of the Fellows regularly attend those meetings ? — Yes ; we could not transact business without them. 204. Without the attendance of all the Fellows ? — We must have a majority to do a great part of the things we do. 20o. What constitutes a majority ? — A majority of the existing number of Fellows. By the old sta- tutes we were obliged to have them all present; but the ordinances allow a majority of the Fellows to be sufficient. 206. (Mr. Thompson.) Do jon conceive you could administer the property of the College without the assistance of a body like that of the Fellows ? — Of course I should have more power ; but it does not follow that one person could administer the affiiirs of the College better than several. 207. What would happen iu case the Warden fell sick, or became imbecile ? — His is an appointment for life. The Oxford Commissioners have made a special provision in the ordiuance, that iu that case a pro-warden shall be elected from the Fellows, and shall stand in the Warden's place in the administra- tion of the College. The sub-warden is already responsible for the good government of the College in case of the Warden being temporarily indisposed or absent. As to the bursar, it is indispensable that we should have one of the Fellows as a bursar. 1. 208. It would very much increase your power over the property if there were no Fellows ? — It would 209. Would there bo any limit to your power over the property ? — I apprehend not, except such as is exorcised by the Acts of Parliament which control us and similar bodies. 210. {Lord Devon.) In case a boy, a foundation scholar, committed anything which was thought worthy of punishment, could that boy appeal to you as against the decision of the Head blaster ? — Yes, undoubtedly ; I think the Head !Ma?ter's answer admits that. 211. Assuming that, should j'ou in such a case think it necessary to bring the appeal before the Fellows, or should yon decide it yourself? — I think I should examine into it for myself. If 1 thought it was groundless I should dispose of it at once ; if insisted upon, I should bring it before the Fellows that they might deal with it. 212. {Lord Li/tfcltoti.) Dr. Jloberly says, " I " apprehend that the Head Master is supreme, there " being at all times an appeal from him to the " Warden ? " he does not say " To the Warden and " Fellows ';" — He does not. 213. Traetically, would it not be the act of the Warden, with the consent of the Fellows ? — Yes. 214. The Warden and Fellows are always men- tioned together iu the statutes ? — Yes. 215. {Lord Devon.) Unless in a very extreme case, which might perhaps occur, such as a boy on ths foundation committing a theft, or something for which he might be expelled, should you, in case of an appeal, call the College together, or should you dispose of it yourself? — I should probably dispose of it myself. Properly speaking, I ought to summon the Fellows, and only to expel with their consent. I, no doubt, could get permission from them, in a case of great urgency, to deal with the case, and they would sanction my sentence. There lies a further appeal for the boy to the Visitor, by the ordinances, in case he is unjustly expelled by me alone, or by the Warden and Fellows. But I do not think I have the power to expel a boy myself ; I must call the Fellows together or get their consent to it. 216. {iMrd Clarendon.) Has the Head Master the power to expel ? — Ills own commoners ; the Head Master cannot expel a scholar. 217. {Mr. Vaughfin.) I understand you to say, with regard to those jioints you have just been men- tioning, that the power of the Warden and Fellows is supreme with respect to the scholars, and the Head Master's power is, with respect to such things as re- gard the commoners ? — Certainl}'. 218. Would there be any difficulty do you sup- pose in trusting to the Head Master, as to lioth, he probably being as good a judge of a matter with regard to a scholar as of the same matter with regard to a commoner? — The constitution makes that distinction. 219. Putting aside the consideration of the present constitution, would there be any great difficulty in trusting to the discretion of the Head Master with regard to the scholars as you do with regard to the commoners ? — No, I think not. 220. {Mr. Thompson.) Giving that discretion to the Head Master ? — Yes. 221. {Mr. J'aifffhan.) You do give it to him with regard to tlie commoners? — -Yes; but do you not think in that case there should lie an appeal : there is at present an appeal to the Visitor. 222. Is there any such appeal with regard to the commoners ? — No ; they are his private boarders. 223. {Lord Clarendon.) 4. " The school is go- " verned partly by the unrepealed portions of the " statutes, partly by the ordinance ol the Oxford " University Commissioners." Where are those un- repealed portions of the statutes to be found ? — There are little bits of the statutes left here and there ; lines and words, which have to be picked out, and must be done as I have had it done, by a barrister ; i.e. to pick out bits which remain unrepealed, and T t WINCHESTER Rev. G. B. Lee. 29 May 1862. 330 PUBLIC SCHOOLS CX5MMISSI0X :— MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. WINCHESTER. Mev. G. B. Lee. 29 May 18G2. lirinrr (liem into harmony with the statutes and ordi- naucfs. 224. No statutes remaiu except those portions •which are unrepealed ? — Just so. 225. Who is to approve of new statutes? — The Visitor, the Bisliop of Winchester. 226. {Lord Li/ticl/oii.) You say that some of the statutes have ceased to be observed, others have become obsolete, and many have been repealed— I understand that to mean, that some statutes have been expressly repealed, and others have fallen into de- suetude, the reason being that they have become inapplicable and obsolete ?— Yes; through the change of manners and customs. 227. And some as inconsistent with the law of the land ?— Yes. 228. (Mr. Vaughan.) Could you state what ad- vantages you think are secured to the school as a public' school by a double government of the school as a public school, i. e., trusting the government of the commoners to one source of authority and the scholars to another ? — The question never occurred to me before. I think I may undertake to say there never has been found to be any difficulty arise from that double government ; never any kind of conflict ; and all the improvements and amendments which have taken place within the last few years have emanated from the Warden and Fellows, not from the masters ; that I am quite certain about ; and there never has been any kind of unpleasant collision : the two masters are bona fide statutable members of the College. The Head Master is an elector to the scholarships at New- Col lege ex officio. 229. {Lord Clarendon.) The school may be said to have two visitors. The society of New College. Oxford, as represented by the Warden and two Fellows, elected for that purpose, hold what is called a scrutiny every year at the election in July, when au opportunity is given to all members of the College to make any complaint they may think proper ? — That is the form of the statutes, for a scrutiny as well as an election. 230. " The boys, both elder and younger, are " examined separately, and questioned as to their " diet, comforts, &c." Does this include the whole school? — No ; the rule is to have up the seven juniors and the seven seniors one by one. The Warden and two posers (Fellows of New College) have seven boys into the room separately, and question them about their diet, comforts, and whether they are bullied, and so on. 231. Now is that a bona fide inquiry? — Yes, indeed it is ; we are always very anxious to get at the truth. 232. Are complaints made ? — They used to be constantly. When I was a boy they had complaints about diet and all sorts of things. 233. {Lord I^yttelton.) Have they of late years ? — No, not about diet. 231. {Lord Devon.) Were you ever called up youi'self ? — Yes. 235. {Lord Lijitelton.) You do not mean there never are any complaints ? — No. 236. {Blr. Thompson.) The object of that regu- lation is to inform New College that Winchester College is going on well ? — Yes. 237. {Lord Lyttelton.) A special visitation every year ? — Yes. 238. Not a general power of visitation ? — No. 239. {Lord Clarendon.) " By clause 37, the visitor •' is empowered, whenever he may think proper, to " hold a visitation, or without holding such visi- " tation, to require answers in writing touching any " matter as to which he may deem it necessai'y to " inquire." That visitor is, I suppose, the Bishop ? — That is the Bishop. That is one clause of the Com- missioners' ordinance. 240. Has that ever been done ? — No, it has never been done yet. 241. {Lord Lyttelton.) It is only suggested to follow it out iu every tenth year, and ten years have not elapsed ? — He may do it when he pleases. 242. {L.ord Clareiidon.) Then the visitors might clash ? — Yes, they might clash, possibly. 243. The Bishop has always been visitor ? — Yes. 244. So has New College too ? — Yes. In the Commissioners' ordinance they have taken it for granted the Bishop was visitor, and have never once made him so. He is alluded to constantly, but they do not once say the visitor is to be the Bishop of Winchester. 245. He has been so from time immemorial ? — Yes. 246. This double visitation has existed for a long time ? — Yes. 247. Have tiiey ever clashed ? — Never. 248. {L^ord Lyttelton.) I understand New College are the real visitors ; the Bishop never comes at all unless in case of an appeal to him ? — No. 249. {Lord Clarendon.) Supposing any great changes, considered to be necessary, are contemplated, would those two sets of visitors think it necessary to consult together. Have they ever communicated together or consulted- each other ? — The visitors from New College would consult the Bishop of Winchester I have no doubt. 250. The visitor has the power to make alterations if he finds certain things which he considers objec- tionable or which he considers require reform ? That is quite clear ? — Certainly. 251. {3Ir. Thompson.) Can he visit without being invited by any member of the College? — I consider .so; the ordinance says, "Without any request or applica- " tion by the College." 252. That is a new power under a special ordinance? — Yes ; by clause 37 he has power to come at any time without any application from any one. 253. {Sir Stafford Northcote.) I think it seems perfectly clear that the Bishop of Winchester, as visitor, has such powers as are inherent in visitors, and also such powers as are expressly given by the ordinance ; but what is not so clear is, what power the Warden and two Fellows of New College have when they come and hold a scrutiny. What power have they besides asking certain questions ; have they any ? — I forget the statute at this moment. That would appear in a clause of the New College statutes, and iu the Winchester statutes too. 254. Have the Warden and two Fellows any power under the statutes ? — Yes. 255. {Lord Devon.) 8. " The boys, both elder and " younger, are examined separately," and so on. Those boys who are submitted to the scrutiny are the boys of the foundation only ? — Certainly. 256. Suppose in the case of a scrutiny the Warden and two Fellows were to ascertain that the boys habitually had not sufficient diet, or that there were cases in which bad meat was supplied to them, or they wanted ventilation in their rooms. Suppose they were to discover that there was tyranny going on. They would have the power, I apprehend, without any refer- ence to the bishop whatever, to remedy those evils ? — I presume so ; I suppose they would first appeal to the Warden and Fellows of Winchester College, and then if they were not satisfied they would carry it before the visitor. 257. {Mr. Vaughan.) May I ask whether the Bishop has the power of visiting Winchester as a Col- lege and school for commoners, or simply as a College ? — I should not think the Bishop would touch the question of the commoners at all. 258. Then what government has the school as a school consisting in part of commoners, beside the Head Master. I understand the school to consist both of scholars and commoners ; we have heard what is the government of the school as consisting of scholars ; I ask whether there i« any government of the school as consisting of commoners independent of the Head Master, or beside him ? — The Warden and Fellows have always claimed a certain kind of au- thority, rather undefined perhaps, over the commoners. For instance whenever a tutor opens a boarding PUBLIC SCHOOLS COSIJIISSION : —MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 331 house, ho is ohligod to upply to the Wurilcii and Fellows for leave. 2o9. For iustaiico you iuentioiie(.l the expuL-^iou of a boy ? — I do not think tliey would have nnythiiiy to do with tiiat in tlic case of ii coiiunouer ; certainly not. 260. Nor the teaching ? — No; not the teaching of commoners. 261. Nor the inmishment ? — No. 262. Nor the discipline ? — Nor the discijiliue, except they might interfere iu cases of great breaches of discipline, if they saw fil. 263. You think under the statutes they might interfere ? — Yes ; as to discipline. The commoners Avere originally a small number of boys admitted under the statutes ns/ilii nobiUum. Adjourned till to-mor 264. Could you say then whether, in your opinion, the Warden and Fellows would have a right (o con- trol the Head ^Master generally in the discipline of the commoners as well as of the scholars ? — Yes ; but I should say their authority is very limited. I do not think a case has occurred which you could take as a precedent ; but no doubt they might interfere. 265. {Lord Li/ltclton.) Have they any control over the number of the connnoners ? — Yes ; I think so decidedly. 266. You are speaking from experience. For several years past it has been so ? — Yes ; one can only give one's opinion upon what strikes one at tlie moment. row at nine o'clock. WINOHESTJill Rev. G. B. Lee. 29 May 18G2. The College, Friday, 30th May 1862. PRESENT ; Earl of Clarendon. Earl of Devon. Lord Lyttelton. Sir S. Northcote. Rev. W. II. TuoMPSON. II. II. Vaughan, Esq. The earl OF CLARENDON in the Chair. The Rev. George Moberly, D.C.L., examined. 267. {Lord Clarendon.) You are Head Master of Winchester school ? — I am. 268. How long have you been Ile.ad Master ? — I am uow in the twenty-seventh year. 269. Were you connected with the school before ■ you were appointed master ? — I was bred here. 270. But 30U were not an assistant master, nor a Fellow of New College ? — No ; I was Fellow and tutor of Balliol for some years. I did not go to New College; that is to say, I did not succeed in getting to New College. 271. For answers to questions from 1 to 9, you refer us to the statutes and regulations ? — Yes, and to the evidence of the Warden. 272. Then we go to No. 10. Your emoluments at present are 450/. per annum, plus 300/ , are they not? — 450/., plus 300/., with a charge of 350/. per annum upon it. 273. That 350/. is charged on the 750/. ?— It is charged on me, and therefore practically it is deducted from that. 274. That lieing the interest on 10,000/. which was advanced for building j'onr present house ? — Yes ; therefore practically it is as though it were rent. It is not rent, my house is rent free ; but that interest on 10,000/. operates as a rent of 350/. on the house. 275. Those new premises cost more than 10,000/. ? — Yes, I believe they cost 27,000/. There was a large subscription raised, and at last when it was plain no more money could be obtained in that way, the College proposed to advance 10,000/. if I would pay 3^ per cent, upon it, as it was for my benefit ; and this was done. 276. " The other emoluments of the Head Master " arise from the profits of his own boarders." How many of those boarders have you ? — At present 100. In former times the College used to allow the Head Master to take 130 boarders, which was the limit of the school, 70 scholars, and 130 hoarders. When I first came to this school I had about 1 10 ; I think the number then rose to 145, which is the highest I ever had ; then they went down again. We suffered for some considerable time under the reputation of bad health, which had the effect of lowering our numbers considerably ; indeed, they diminished down to about 65 ; then by various things we did we iu great degree got rid of that imputation. Again, the opening of the College to open competi- tion, and the opening of New College to the com- moners, produced a disposition on the part of peoj)lc to send their sons to Winchester. When my numbers began to increase gradually I opened these additional houses. I have got now to the limit in my own house. The number has risen to 100, and I do not propose to take more than 100 ; that gives more room to each boy. 277. It was originally contemplated that the whole of the boarders should be in the Head Master's house ? — Yes, and so they always have been till within these two or three years. 278. You said " the opening of New College to " commoners," what was that ? — The New College elections are now open to competition absolutely to all the boys in this school ; therefore any boys coming to this school are not only as eligible but as likely to be elected as the scholars, who used to get it in the order in which they stood in the school. The consequence is, that persons have sent their sons to the school as commoners upon the under- standing that they would get the very instruction they would require to succeed in getting to Oxford, so that the opening New College has strengthened the other part of the school. 279. You calculate the profits of your boarders at about 20/. to 25/. a piece ?— That, of course, is a very rough calculation ; I should a few years back have estimated it rather higher, but I had occasion, when the income tax was first laid on, to go into more minute calculations about the expenses than I had done before. Having to appeal against the assess- ment, I had to go into it particularly. I had, first of all, to state the general receipts of the school ; secondly, the general charges, the cost of housekeep- ing particularly, as prices were at that time ; and I recollect i)erfectly well when I was laying out the de- tails of my housekeeping expenses, the assessor, who was present, said to the Commissioners, " I observe " Dr. Moberly's estimate for the whole number of his " boys is 29/. a head for housekeeping ; that, accord- " ing to the ordinary rate of schools, is a very reason- " able rate, and therefore, perhaps, we had better go " no further." And they accepted that at the mo- ment. Subsequently to that prices have very much increased, and therefore I presume 29/. now does not cover the housekeeping expenses ; and I cannot say with any precision how much housekeeping costs per head, because it varies with the number of boys from year to year. I cannot therefore s.ay precisely what it is now ; it is, however, certainly beyond 29?. per head. You will observe that at the time that estimate T t 2 Rev. G. MoberCtf,. 30 May 1862. 332 PUBLIC SCHOOLS COMMISSION: — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. WINCHESTER. liev. G. Moberly. 30 Mav 1»C2. wa:: taken I lia'l 120 hays, ,iml of course the expense of housekeeping per head increases as the number diminishes. Tliere are certain fixed charges for ser- vants, and so on. 280. I see you also have enioUimeut " from the •• Ijoarders at the other houses at 10/. lOs. per head ; " wliat is that ? — We are still in rather an uncertain state with regard to the other houses. I opened the houses, and it was a very dilncult thing to draw out a scheme for those houses, because a certain number of regulations as to discipline, .and so on, had to be made, and it was difficult to make those a priori. Therefore we opened the houses and felt our way to the rules. It was a novel thing in this place, and one of the first things I had to do was to settle what the boarders of the other houses had to p.ay to the staif' of masters. I am in the habit, out of my own proceeds, of paying the masters such a sum. I pay about 20 guineas per boy towards the staif. It -was necessary they should pay the Head Master something, the second master something, the third master something ; and upon the moment we laid out this scale of payments which I have put down here, viz., the Head Master 10 guineas, the second master Ql. Ss., the third master 4/. 281. If you will have the goodness to look, it is included as part of your emoluments, and from the boarders of other houses at 10 guineas a year ? — Yes, that was a fixed payment. We shall not make it a fixed payment now ; that was arranged when there were but two outer houses, and only three masters in school ; now that we have got a fourth master in school (an office we have instituted within the last four months), I have told the other masters that we must lind the payment for the fourth master out of that sum of 20 guineas. That is what is paid by the outlying commoners to the staff of masters, and out of that 20 guineas we must find a payment for the fourth master as Avell, so that the others must be reduced proportionably. 282. According to that scale each boarder at the other houses pays to yon 10 guineas ? — Exactly so. 283. " The .second master receives 6/. 8,?. per " annum froui every commoner in the school, and " an increased stipend of 200/. a )'ear. He also " receives 300/. a ye.ar from Dr. Goddard's bene- " faction.'' Was Dr. Goddard's benefaction for the payment of the masters ? — Dr. Goddard's bene- faction was this : — when Dr. Goddard was Head Master, which he was for many years, it was the practice of the College to put on the bills of all the College boys, not in the form of a charge, but in the form of a request, 10 guineas every year for •' masters'- gratuities," and to insert the words " if .allowed ;" that little p.arenthesis " if allowed," being intended to give the parent an opportunity of putting his pen through "masters' gratuities" if he pleased ; but you will easily see it was not one in many hundreds who would put his pen through it; and the consequence was that during that time practically a charge of 10 guineas was made upon the College Ijoys. Dr. God- dard, or, I rather think. Dr. Goddard's predecessor, was appealed against before the Visitor on account of this charge, and the Visitor decided that it was legal, because the parenthesis "if allowed" kept it from being an actual charge. Dr. Goddard received that money during the whole of his Head Mastership, but it dis- tressed him ; and just before I came here, he wrote to the College, and said, " It has been such a distress of " conscience to me to receive this money," (though, as it was authorized by the Visitor, it came to him legally) " I am determined in future no Head Master'shall " suffer the same distress ;" and he sent them 2.5,000/, in the 3 per cents., in order that they .should pay to the two Masters the interest of that sum, so that they should not feel the distress he had felt. 284. The distress never came to a crisis, until he had retired ? — Not until ho had retired. But it was not a bequest. It was years before his death that he did it. It was a very genuine thing. It was not in the form of taking so much from his heirs ; he gave it himself. 28.3. The mathematical master receives 3/. a he.id from all the boys in the school ? — Yes. 286. He receives that whether those boys attend him or not ? — All the boys attend either Mr. Walford or his assistants. 287. Or js the mathematical course compulsory? — . Entirely comi)ulsory. Our weekly course of lessons takes into account such and sucli a number of lessons in the maihematical school. 288. (jV/-. Thompson.) Would good marks in ma- thematics ])romote a boy's advancement in his form ? — Yes. I have brought, in case the subject should require any illustration, some leaves taken from a book which is iu use in senior part of the fifth ; that is the largest class I have at this time, going on day by day, and this will illustrate how they go on. i^Dr. Moberly proceeded with his explanation hi/ reference to the hook.) 289. (Lord Clarendon.) "The two tutors iu com- " moners lodge in the commoners' building, and are " boarded at the Head Master's expense." You board the tutors besides what you pay them ? — Yes. 290. Do they board with the boys ? — They dine with the boys; they dine at a high table in that hall ; they have a separate dinner there ; they have break- fast, tea, and so on in their own rooms. Also I should add that other commoners' tutors dine there ; I allow two or three of the other commoners' tutors to dine there, so as to add to their means. We have four or five tutors there every day. 291. At your expense ? — Yes. 292. {Lord Devon.) I do not quite clearly appre- hend (we have it not clearly before us) what the total sum paid to you on behalf of each boy is. We have a statement of the bills here, from which it would ap- pear that the commoners in your house p.ay about 115/. a year ; taking that as .an average, how much is paid to you ? — I am in the habit of being asked constantly by parents what it will cost to put a boy at the school and the answer I generally make is " Our charges are " 84/. a year, our entr.ance fees are 11/. 18.«. 6d. That " sum includes everything which is charged to all the " boys ; the only additional items in the bill will be " tr.adcsmen's bills, and money lent for travelling ; " the average expense of all the commoners in my " house is about 1 1 5/." That is the nature of the answer I make. 293. Thus in these bills which are given in a sort of schedule here, making a total of 56/. 12s. lOrf., each boy pays nine guineas, does he not, on account of the other masters ? — No, that is included iu the 42/.; you will see the third item from the bottom includes those other charges. 294. The nine guineas which are paid to the other masters: is that sum included in the 56/. 12,?. lOd. ? — Yes, everything is included in that. Within the last month I have increased that fee of nine guineas to 10/. 295. The " half-yearly charges, 42/.," can you analyse that a little more ? — Yes. I will t.ake it at 84/., the whole year, out of it I pay the second master 6/. 8s. for every commoner. I now pay the tutors 10/. I pay the mathematical master 31. I p.ay the French master 1/. 10s., but I wish to make a note upon that. I do not pay the French master that sum for each boy, I pay him a salary, which upon the whole is equivalent to that. I did not think it desi- rable to make him dependent on the number of boys, to go up or down with the school ; so that I give him a sum whether the school is more or less full, equal to II. 10s. each boJ^ Sometimes he is a loser, and some- times a gainer by that. Upon the whole it is pretty equitably done, I think. Practically, it is about 1 /. 10s. per annum for each boy for the French master. Then there are 12s. 6c?. for e.ach lioy, which we pay as college dues to the officers of the College ; that is to say, the five senior boys receive money, they receive a stipend amounting to 15/. a year, and others to about 10/. a year. It is made up partly of what the College gives them, and partly of these 12s. 6d. given them by the commoners. 296. That applies to boys iu your own house ? — Yes, PUBLIC SCHOOLS COMMISSION: — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 333 297. With reference to boys in other hoarding liousL's, what is the eliarge iiidcpuiKU'iit of the I>ill.s, for board ? — The charges are generally the same as in my own. I have put down the Head Muster tor 10 guineas ; the second master tor 6/. Ss. ; tiie third master for 4/. ; the mathemntieal master for 3/. ; the French master for 1/. 10s. I do not myself pay any- thing answering to that tirstitem. I take the balance. 298. Then what accounts for the ditference between 25/. and 42/. ; under the head of " half-yearly charges " in your answer you give the figures 42/. ? — That is for my establishment ; that i.s to say, servants, rent, housekeeping, taxes, and profit. 299. Then the result would be this : that, whether a boy be in your house or in the house of an assis- tant master, about 251. would be considered the charge for tuition? — Yes, at least in the tutor's houses ; but at the same time I should add this, that the Head Master, to his own commoners, makes no charge for his own tuition ; he is paid for tuition out of the board. In the other case the 10 guineas go to him for tuition. The boarding tutor gets his benefit from his boarders. 300. But with respect to the boy, or the parent of the boy, it would be considered that for his boy's tuition 251. is paid ? — Yes, more or less ; but if I had to answer that question I should think it necessary to append this note : " While 251. is paid out for this " purpose by the boarding tutors,, the Head Master's " instruction is paid for by the profits of his own " boarders." 301. (Lord Li/ttelton.) These five senior boys re- ceive certain payments themselves ? — Yes. 302. Made up from what the other boj's pay ? — Partly. I cannot tell you precisely what it is. It has been diminished of late. In former times the prefect of hall used to get from 20/. to 25/- ; now he gets, as far as I know, from 12/. to 15/., and tlie other officers something like 10/. a year. 303. That is like pocket money to them ? — Yes. Moreover they get more than that. All the senior prefects have boy pupils among the junior bovs, and the junior boys pay their prefect tutor a guinea a half- j'ear. So that each of those boys has an income, exclusive of what he brings from home, of between 20/. and 30/. a year. 304. Those are not always scholars, are they ? — Always scholars. 305. (Mr. Thompson.) Is that always paid to them in money ? — Always in money. 306. (Lord Lytfelton.) I understood you to say, you paid about 20 guineas to the staff? — Yes. 307. In this printed answer there are two outer boarding-houses mentioned ; Mr. Wickham's and Mr. Moberly's ? — I have opened another since. 308. Whose is that ? — Mr. Da Bonlay's. He was a tutor at Exeter College. He has just come down to me. He is building a house ; so that at present his arrangements are not in a perfect state. He has a house in which he has got four boys, and is likely to have more after the holidays. He is Iniilding a house on the hill near here, which will contain 25 boj's. I propose to have a fourth boarding-house. My idea is, that tiie school ouglit to extend to 200 commoners, i. e., 100 within the Head Master's pre- mises, and four boarding-houses with an average of 25 each ; and when we have 100 scholars, which we shall have under the ordinance of the Commissioners, we shall have a school of 300 boys, whicli is as many as we can accommodate with oiu' machinery and other conveniences ; and we ought not to have less to supply six scholars per annum to New College. We shall want a minimum of six scholars for New Col- lege every year; and in order to keep up that staple we should have 300 boys in the school. We ha^-e now 216. 309. The fixed payments to the Head Master from the fund are 450/. and 300/., from which there is a deduction of 350/., leaving a balance of 400/. from that source ? — Yes. 310. Then if we take the number of boarders in Jiev. G. Moberly. 30 May 1862. the Head Master's house at 100 ? — I ha\ e not had WlNCHESTJia 100 l)oarders these 15 years. 311. Suppose we take the number at 100, and take them at a profit of 20/. apiece, that makes 2,000 a year on that account ? — Yes. 312. There is a certain other sum (it does not appear how far it is net) from the other boarders, llow much should the net emoluments of the Head Master be, calculated upon that scale ? — I should find it extremely difficult to tell you what the net profits are ; partly because the profits are difficult to calculate, but chiefly for this reason — the greater part of my profits arise out of my boarders. I have a large establishment, .and a very large family of my own. I have but a single kitchen where everything is cooked both for my boarders and my children. I have a tutors' table and a housekeeper's table ; I have a sick boys' talde ; I have between 20 and 30 ser- vants in the two houses. I have (when my own house is included) a dinner .at 1 o'clock for my own children. All this goes into one general mass, and which item in the butcher's bill or the grocer's bill is for my family, which is for the boys, I honestly cannot tell you. 313. But without going minutel}- into the ques- tion of profits, we may take the lowest sum of 20/. each boy ? — The profit on the boarders is the great item. 314. Taking it at 20/. each boy, that, without looking to the boai'ders of other houses, would give 2,000/. a year " — Tiiat, I have no doubt is within the mark. 315. So that W'ithout reckoning at all the other houses, the whole emoluments would be 2,400/ ? — If you take 20/. .apiece on 100 bovs, that would make 2,000/. 316. I am adding the 400/. net from the College ? — That makes 2,400/. Then the others would be ten guineas apiece. 317. Is that ten guineas net ?— Yes it is net, except so far as I choose to charge myself with things. The fact is I charge myself with several things. Mr. Waltbrd, the mathematical master, has an as- sistant, and I pay him 50/. I also pay another tutor 50/. a year. The truth is, when I fii-st came here, I asked my predecessor what the value of the ]ilace was, and he gave me an answer which will show you what a valuable situation it was con- sidered to be. " If 3'ou come yvith the private '• means I did, and if your expenses are the same '• as mine were, you m.ay reckon on laying by " 2,000/. a year with the school full." "l came here, and in the course of the first three years the whole of our building was pulled down, in order to build these new premises. Therefore every thing I laid out in the first instance was aban- doned and lost. I then went into the new place, and furnished it from one end to the other ; and of course it was some time Ixfore any profit came. Then came two or three years of considerable profit. The school was very full, and paid well. During that time I laid by nearly 2,000/. a year beyond the expenses. Then the school graduall}^ decreased, so much, that there yvas a time when I doubt whe- ther I quite cleared my expenses. Now it has got up again ; you certainly would not go beyond the mark, if, taking all the sources together, you put the profit at 3,000/. a year when the school is full. If I v.'ere to give a very deliberate, well-considered, balanced answer, I should say one year with another, with the school in a state of prosperity, that sum would not be beyond the mark. 318. (Mr. V'aughan.) I reckoned it at 3,000/. a year merely from the data given in your answers, deducting the rent you pay for the house ? — Yes ; I am sure that is a fair estimate, supposing the school to be full. 319. (Lord Lyttelfoii.) If you took 100 boys besides your own bo.arders, you could not take the net profit upon them at 10/. a head ? — No ; besides I am going to pay my fourth master out of these sums. T t 3 334 PUBLIC SCHOOLS COMMISSION: — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. WIXCHESTER. Jiei>. G. Moberhj. m May 186-2. 320. {Mr. Vmigltan.) In estimating your profit from boarders to the Commissioners of income tax, liiul the sum you pay as the interest of the money ibr building the house, been reckoned as rent for tlie house and deducted from your profits ? — I do not think 1 have ever, as far as I recollect, given the Commis- sioners an estimate of my profits ; I said the profits oLthe boarders were 20/. apiece, but I do not think I have ever given an estimate of my profits upon the whole. 321. In the specimen half year's account the first item is " drawing master," but in the columns of figures it is nil; what would that be, supposing the boy had had a drawing master ? — I am afraid I cannot answer that ; it is something I have approved of and settled. There are not many boys who learn ; I reallv cannot tell you at the moment, without look- ing through one of the accounts. 322. I "only wanted to know what the charge for the drawing master was ; do I understand that all these payments in this account are made only by the commoners ? — i'es. 323. With respect to the payments mentioned in No. 10, are there any of those which are paid by scholars ; if so, which of them are paid by scholars ? ^You will observe, under No. 13, "The only money " paid on account of a scholar for instruction is the " sum of 1/. lOs-. annually for the foreign masters, " with 1/. Is. half-yearly additional if he learns " German and, if he be not a prefect, 1/. \s. half- " yearly to his boy tutor." 324. {Sir S. A'orthcote.) I will just ask about the 350/. per annum ; is that an .irrangement with your- self, individually, or will it be a permanent arrange- ment with the Head Master ? — When the College asked me if I would consent to that, I tried to make a condition ; I said, " I am quite content to pay " 3^ per cent, upon that 10,090/., provided you will " promise me j'ou will not increase it on my suc- " cesser," and they declined to make any such bar- gain. They said they did not intend to bind them- selves with respect to future Head Masters ; therefore the arrangement applies only to myself. 325. {Lord Lyttelton.) They Avill make their own bargain with future Head Masters ? — Yes. 326. {Lord Devon.) Will j^ou be kind enough to give us a statement of the names and positions of all the staff of the school ? — The second master is Mr. Frederic Wickham, whom I am sorry to say is ill at present, and incapable of appearing before you. 327. Perhaps you will give us the salaries at the same time, independent of the profits of boarders ? — That does not come much before me officially, and therefore I am not the best authority upon that subject. The Rev. Frederic Wickham, a Master of Arts, a Fellow of New College in former times, is the second master ; the Rev. Henry Edward Moberly, my nephew, a Fellow and tutor of New College, is the third master, and has charge of a class in school ; the Rev. James Thomas Du Boulay, Fellow and tutor of Exeter College, who has lately come down • here, is fourth master in the school. Those three masters and myself have alone the actual charge of the classes. Meanwhile I have a tutor for my own personal help, Mr. Charles GriflSth, a Craven scholar of Wadham College ; he takes about 20 of my boys (numbering from the 21st to the 40th) in the school. Those are the only masters who hear classical lessons. Then Mr. Walford, who was a member of Trinity College, Cambridge, is our mathematical master, and we have recently got for his assistant the Rev. C. H. Hawkins, who is also of Trinity College, Cambridge ; and they, with the writing master, Mr. Whale, form the staff in that part of the school. Those are the only teachers of classes in the school. Then in the College there is a tutor, whose duty it is to superintend the composition of the greater part of the College boys, — the Rev. Edmund Willes, who receives a stipend of 200/. a year from the College funds. When I say "the greater part of " the College boys," I mean below the upper boys ; the upper Isoys do not submit their compositions to any one but me. For the commoners, I have two resident tutors, both Fellows of New College, Mr, Harrifon and ^Ir. Dickins ; they have the immediate superintendence of the boys residing with me, and overlook the compositions of the greater part of the commoners ; they are boarded and lodged in my pre- mises. I consider the boarding and lodging I give them is worth nearly 100/. a year, besides their stipend. 328. They do not take classes in the school ? — They do not take classes. There is one more, the Rev. H.J. Wickham, who is one of the boarding roasters. He was a tutor for com.moners for eight or ten years. He some time after resigned his tutorship for commoners, which he did eight or ten years ago, I had allowed him to open a boarding house. He had a house two streets oflf, knew the boys perfectly well, and could open his house for boarders without incurring any expense ; it therefore was a very happy opportunity, as it appeared to me, to begin that system, and I appointed him a boarding master. He onlj' superintends his own boj's, and has nothing to do with the others. 329. {Lord Clarendon.) 11. " There are two statu- " table masters only," that is the Head Master and the second master ? — Yes, Mr. F. Wickham and myself. 330. You say " There will shortly be anothei* " assistant master with a class " ? — That is Mr. Da Boulay ; he is now at work. 331. Has he been appointed sincethese answers ? — Yes ; he has been with us since the beginning of February. 332. You have one French master and you are going to have another French Master ? — Yes, we have already got him ; he has been here some months. 333. A Frenchman ?— Yes. 334 You have one German master already ? — Yes^ Mr. Heller. You will observe the reason for that is that the German boys are all volunteers. We teach German or French to everybody. Every boy must go into one class or the other. 335. That is part of the ctirriculum ? — Yes ; the boys who go into German pay a guinea a half-year more besides the 1/. 10«. 336. Both commoners and scholars ? — Yes ; he has out of the whole number about 41 boys. All the rest of the school go to the French classes. His num- ber varies, of course, somewhat, but that is about the mark. 337. {Mr. Thompson.) Those are chiefly the elder boys ? — Yes, or those whose friends have some con- nexion with Germany, or those whose family have been in Germany, so that the boy has learnt the language before. If the boys would attend to my wishes, which they do not always do, I should wish that French should go on up to the upper part of the school, and then that all the boys should learn German. But it is not for me to decide ; it is for the friends to decide ; so that the German class is not so full as I should like it to be. 338. {Lord Clarendon.) Is there a periodical ex- amination in German ? — We have not had one until lately. In the little book I took the liberty of sending the Commissioners* I speak of a scheme I was then proposing for setting on foot periodical examinations in the classics and modern languages ; and since that was written I have held the first examination. It took place in January, and excited a great deal of interest in the school. 339. {Mr. Thompson.) What kind of examination was th.at ? — I describe it here in this way: " I am pro- " posing prizes to each of the five divisions of the " school below the sixth form, which are to be con- * TTive short letters to Sir William Heathcote, Bart., M.P., for the University of Oxford, on the Studies and Discipline of I'ublic Schools, by George Moberly, D.C.L,, Head Master of Winchester College. Eivingtons, London, 18G1. PUBLIC SCHOOLS COMMISSION : —MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 335 " tested in the first week of every half year. I " propose that every boy in these chisses .should " be examined, not only sueh as think proper to " offer themselves as candidates. I wish to have " examiners, one tor each class. I'rom the university, " and tiie examination to be conducted either wholly, " or, perhaps, with the exception of reading aloud in " French, on paper. I should like to have six papers " for each class ; the first, in the Greek books read " in the school in the previous half year ; the second, " in the Latin verse ; the third, in French and '• German for the boys who respectively learn these " languages, containing passages for translation into " and from these languages, and grammatical " questions ; the fourth, in a set portion of English " history ; the fifth, in a set portion of geography ; " and the sixth, in a set portion of the history of the « Old Testament." 340. The first trial in January was successful ? — Yes, I think so ; the boys certainly took a great deal of interest in it. 341. You thitik it will work well? — I do not yet know how it will operate ou the whole, but my im- pression is that it will work well and do a great deal of good. 342. It is to be a viva voce examination as well as with papers ? — No ; we found that a great difficulty. If you have papers you may examine 100 boys very soon, but if you give them only a few minutes apiece, the examination, though short, runs away with such a quantity of time that it becomes im))0ssible to deal with 100 boys in vira voce examinations. The boys are to read Frencli aloud to the French master. I say here, " My object in intro- " ducing one Greek and one Latin paper into this " examination is to ensure that the regular lessons of " the half year are not neglected while these col- " lateral subjects are more closely' attended to. I still " wish our general promotion to take place according " to the aggregate of marks or dassicus paper," and so on. My desire was to encourage modern languages and sueh studies as geography and history. I found, upon the first trial, a good many of the boys did those things very well ; they pleased me very ranch. There were a good many who did pretty well, and I am inclined to think it will go ou improving. 343. (Mr. Vauff/icDi.) In history and geography, the history of the Old Testament forms a portion of the examination ; is that one of the school subjects or a paper by itself? —That I intend to be a paper by itself. I had not the Old Testament history in the first examination. 344. {Mr. Thompson.) This does not apply, I think you say, to the sixth form ? — No. 345. Is there any other examination approaching in its effect to this ? — I have spoken here of several other examinations. We have, first, the election examination for New College, which runs over much of this ground ; then we have a very serious examination indeed, in the winter, for Dr. Goddard's prize (an exhibition of 251. for four years), which goes over much of that same ground; so that it would only be multiplying examinations in pari materia to apply this to the sixth form. 346. I only wished to know why they were ex- cluded ? — Because they have examinations of their own. 347. {Lord Clarendon.) "In all matters within the " school 1 apprehend that the Head Master is su- " preme, there being at all times an appeal to the " Warden on any subject relating to the scholars " or any of the officials of the College." Per- haps this may be an opportunity for asking you to give us some account of the relation which exists between the Warden and Fellows and the scholars, which I do not find comes out very clearly either in the Warden's answers or any other part ? — You see we are dealing here with a traditional sys- tem ; it has grown up with circumstances. William of Wykeham, the Founder, instituted a College witli a Warden and Fellows as the body to govern it, liev. G. Moberly. .30 May 1862. and the masters are " conductilii et remo/iri " by wiNCHESTBEs them. The consequence is, that the Warden and Fellows have the legal authority. That is pointed out in many places in the statutes. The Head Master is hired by them to teach the scholars, and is removeable by them ; that is his legal position under the statutes. But in the course of years a great change took place ; the school grew up to be of a character and importance which the statutes never contemplated. At first a few boys were admitted as Jflii nohiliiim ; then, the education being found to be of value, other boys were sent ; the Head Master who, by the statutes, ought to be within the College, was allowed to live outside, find to take boarders ; and to such an extent did that go, that until recently all the expenses of the instruction of the whole school were jmid by the commoners. The sti])end of the Head Master, which is put down here at 300/. per annum, has only been 300/. for the space of about a year and a half; until then it was only 150/. and the second master's was 100/., so that 1 could con- scientiously say that for a stipend of 150/. with a charge of 350/. upon it per annum I undertook the instruction of 200 boys, looking forward to make my profit out of the boarders. That was the ground, as regards monej' matters, on which I stood with the College. The 450/. per annum was Dr. Goddard's private benefaction. t?o things have grown up to their present state. By the constitution the Warden is su|)reine over the scholars. If any matter of im- portance takes place as to the scholars, I must lay it before the Warden. As to the commoners, he has nothing to do with them direetlj' ; they are my own boys ; still being supreme over the scholars, iis it is but one school, it is obvious that he gets an indirect supremacy over the commoners as well ; so that even in commoners I should never think of doing anything remarkable without consulting the Warden and ascer- taining his wishes about it. 348. Can such a constitution work well ? — It is not one I should devise for such an institution ; but it has grown up traditionally, and I should be sorry to have it interfered with. So long as the Warden and the Head Master act together amicably, nothing can be more cordial or more valualde than their joint positions ; but, if I may speak from hearsay, there have been times (not in my own time) when there was not that good feeling. 349. Should you say any direct power of interfering with the whole school rests with the Warden ? — There must be such a power. He is supreme over the scholars, and if special orders are issued for the scholars, the general ojjeratiou of the school must, of course, be greatly affected. 350. When you speak of the Warden you mean the Warden and Fellows ? — No, I mean the Warden ; the Fellows are non-resident. 351. Is that considered an invariable rule ? — The bursar is the only regular exception I have known ; he generally resides here. The bursar now is an old gentleman, and in ill health, and the under-bursar (Mr. Walford, the mathematical master,) practically conducts great part of the College business. 352. {Lord Devon.) Is Mr. Walford a salaried officer ? — Yes ; Mr. Walford receives 3/. ahead from all the boys in the school, the College paying him on account of the scholars. He receives other payments, I believe, from the College funds. 353. {Lord Clarendon.) There are two single men's apartments here, I think, for the Fellows ?— There are several rooms. There are rooms for three Fellows in the premises, but they are seldom occupied. 354. You consider, i)ractically, the Fellows are iion-resident ? — They are. They come u]> to four or five meetings a year. 355. There is no statuteable period of residence by the old statutes ? — No ; I fancy by the statutes they require the permission of the Warden to be absent, Init if so, it is a permission always given. 356. By the statutes they are expected to be always here ? — Yes, I think so. T t 4 336 PUBLIC SCHOOLS COMMISSION: — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. WINCHESTER. Bev. G. Moberly. 30 May 1862. 357. (Lord Devon.) With regard to the Fellows, do the Follows always meet as a Council, and take into cou.sideration any matters connected with the school as such ? — The Fellows very rarely deal with those things. The Warden's authority is rather a peculiar one, hecausc it is partly personal and partly as the head of a corporation ; so that when any im- portant case arises affecting a scholar I take it to the Warden and he deals with it as he thinks proper. If it is a matter of general concern, and he thinks it desirable to get the opinions of the Fellows as well, the decision is put off till the next meeting, and they consider of it. In ordinary matters the Warden is supreme, and we have nothing to do but to obey him. He is always very courteous and considerate, and I have never had the smallest inconvenience or diffi- culty with him. 358. There is a double government in fact ? — It is certainly a very anomalous constitution. It is one, I suppose", nobody would make now for the tirst time. When William of \Vykeham framed these statutes, he had no idea (hat so inii)ortant a part of the whole school would be under the Head Master as an in- dependent authority, so that he did not institute the constitution we now have ; but here it is, and so long as it works on, and so long as we can keep things together under it, there is no reason why it should not continue. It goes on very harmoniously. 359. May I ask yon whether any of the changes or improvements in the system which have taken place in your time have been instituted by the Warden and Fellows ? — Many improvements, relating to the com- fort and well-being of the College boys, have been made by them ; but they have not had any part in the changes which refer to the learning of the school. 360. (Lord Clarendon.) Do you consider the fel- lowships as retiring aHowances for the masters ? — Until lately the fellowships were confined by the st.atutes to the actual Fellows of New College, or those who had Ijeen members of that body, or those who were Chaplains of this College ; but by a clause in the ordinance of the Oxford Commissioners^ under which we are now living, tlie masters of the school are placed in a position, I will not say of prior eligibility, but of equality with the Fellows of New College. They are equally eligible for those fellow- ships, and they may be considered as retiring allow- ances for the Masters who get them. 361. Has the number of fellowships been reduced as yet ? — We have not had an election since the ordinance was made. There are 10 fellowships, and four .are to be suspended. It is left in the discretion of the College to suspend the tirst or second. I imagine they will not, in all proljability, suspend the first that falls. 362. As far as j'ou are able to judge, are you pre- pared to say a further diminution of the fellowshijis would be injurious to the school ?^If the question refer to the education of the school, — the mere educa- tional interests of the school,. — I do not think it is very material whether there are any fellowships or not ; I re.ally do not feel their presence at all. 363. (Mr. Tlionipson.) Would you extend the same remark to the Warden ? — I would not do that absolutely, because the Warden is on the spot, and does actually control a good deal. As I have already said, my own feeling would be this — if you were to set lip a public school in some other part of England now, then to have a Head Master, the liest you could get, and then put a superior, resident, individual authority over the school and over him, would be a monstrous constitution to devise for the first time ; but we have inherited this, and inherited it by degrees. It has grown upon ns gradually, until it "is not of anybody's institution. _ 364. (iorr/ Clarcndoit.) Do you consider the institu- tion of the Warden and Fellows' has any appreciable effect in improving the quality of the masters you get here ? — No, on the contrary, it rather dis-improves them, if I may coin such a word. We must consider the AVarden and Fellows of this College, and the Warden and Fellows of New College as one joint' body, and I have no hesitation in saying that the' consequence of restricting the choice of masters to any single college, cannot be to improve the quality of the teaching in a school. When I was introduced here as Head Master, though bred here as a boy, I belonged to another College. I was an undergraduate, fellow, and tutor of Balliol ; my life at Oxford was spent in my College ; and you may easily suppose that this being a place which moi'e or less, was alw.iys looked upon as one of the privileges of New College, it has never been a very pleasant matter that a Balliol man should be here. Again, when I was elected, not only was I, a Balliol man, made Head Master, but the then Warden and Fellows elected INIr. Charles Wordsworth second master,' who was not only not a New College man, but not a Wykehamist at all ; he was bred at Harrow, and was a Chrisi Church man ; and to have him brought here as second master was not altogether acceptable to the body of Wykehamists. We went on working together here for ten years with great cordiality, and with great and growing kindness from all the Wykehamists. I have always felt it to be my duty to fill up the masterships tliat were in my patronage as far as I could from New C!ollege. If I could find a fit nuxn at that College I felt I must appoint him. The only excuse that would be felt to be adequate if I brought in another man was, that I could not find one to suit me at New College. The question I was asked at first, then, must be answered in this way— so i'ar as the quality of the teaching goes, I think it is not improved by the constitution we have now. If you put an adequate man as master at the head of a school of this kind, he ought to be supreme. That of course is a Head Master's view. 365. (Mr. Thompson.) What body would you sug- gest to nninage the property ? — I am not prepared to suggest any changes. There is a great deal of pro- perty in the hands of the College, and as far as I know, I believe that it is very well managed by the W.arden and Fellows. 366. You think the fellowships ought to be kept up ? — I think besides the management of the property, it is highly desirable there should be such offices as places of retirement for men who have laboured long and hard as masters, in the work of the .school. 367. (Lord T^yttcllon.) The appeal is practically from you to the Warden alone ? The Fellows were not in your mind at all ? — They are not here, and besides that they know nothing about the matter. It would be preposterous if I had a question regard- ing a particular boy, as to a matter of fact, and requiring to be dealt with at once, to bring up half a dozen clergymen from the country to consult them upon it. 368. You look to the AVarden alone ? — Yes. 369. You are acquainted with the statutes and ordinances ? — Yes ; pretty well. 370. As far as they are valid, they relate only to the scholars ? — Yes. 37 1 . They have nothing to do with the commoners ? — Nothiug whatever. 372. The real effective control of the W.arden over the scholars : does that extend practically to the subjects of instruction, to the books for instance in use for the scholars ? — I do not think the Warden so far as 1 know, has ever meddled with those things. I do not doubt that he might do so. If the Warden were to tell me he approved or dis- approved of a book, I should think it proper to attend to that. In respect of the books to be selected for examination .it the elections for New College, I am bound to consult the Wai'den of New College. 373. When you state you consider the control of the Warden to apply indirectly even as regards the commoners, you mean that that arises from the ex- treme inconvenience which would result from two systems existing in the same school? — Yes, we arc theoretically only a branch of the College, there- PUBLIC SCHOOLS COMMISSION : — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE; S37 fore if my boys are allowed to come and learn with the College boys, they must follow the College rules. 374. (Mr. raughan.) As 1 understood your objec- tions just now, they went not to the relations between the Warden of Winchester and the school, but to tlie relations betweu the school and New College ? — I did not object to anything on my own part. The present Warden was one of our tutors for twenty years before he was elected Warden, so that I know him thoroughly, and he knows me. I have never met with anything from him or the Warden who was in office before him, but courtesy, and not only that, but con- sideration, respectful consideration. From first to last I have never met with anytliing but the utmost possible kindness. But when I have made changes 1 have found difficulties in the way. There was one great efiange 1 made some years ago ; I took great pains to do it because I knew my movements would be watched, and therefore, though I believe it was within my own authority, I consulted the Warden of this College and at the election I stated to the War- den of New College and the other electors what I proposed to do, and obtained their acquiescence, so that the thing was done, and it was in my own mind a thing of essential consequence, but I found for many years it did not work so well as it ought to have done, because it had not the full approval of the old Wykehamists. I discovered that to cairy out any change successfully it must have the sympathy of New College. 375. If I understand you rightly, then, }'our ol>jec- tions are addressed to your relations with New College rather than to your relations with the Warden and Fellows here ? — I think the two Colleges form but one system, and it is that system which overlies the scliool. 376. Is it, in your opinion, the best thing for a public school of this kind, that the Head Master should be entirely supreme without any one over him ? — Pray let me distinguish between what I think about an abstract public school and this one. I would not have the constitution of this altered at all. As I have already said, this is an ancient place ; it has grown up to what it is from ancient times ; things have adapted themselves to it, in fact, and it goes on agieeably and smoothly, so that I would not have the relation between the Warden and the Head Master changed. I should think it a pity ; it would be framing a new constitution upon a new basis. 377. But supposing the constitution of a public school were to be framed anew, you would think it ad- visable that the Head Master should be entirely supreme in the management of the school in all points, affecting the kind of education which is to be given there? — I think so ; I think, if an abstract public school were to be set on foot and you were to appoint a Head Master and intrust him with the management of it, he ought to be supreme in all points, i. e,, the subjects to be taught, the methods of teaching, the books, and so on. I think he should also be supreme in appoint, ing his assistants, so that they should be one uniform body ; he should not be liable to have a man put in to check and counteract him. On the other hand, I think it would be quite necessary there should be some body of men (not a single individual) to meet occasionally, to superintend, to lay down general prin- ciples for his guidance, and to have the power to remove him if necessary. At the same time we really get on very well as it is, only there was good sense in the remark made to me by the Head Master of another public school when we were discussing these matters, " I think I am better off than you are, for my " Trustees never hear of anything I do until it is done." 378. {Sir S. Northcote.) You do not think the supremacy of the Warden facilitates your dealing with the assistant masters ? — No ; if I had the au- thority I could deal with them perfectly well. 379. {Mr. Thompson.) Or with the parents ? — No; yet, sometimes it is a facility for me, instead of arguing with a parent, to say, " It is the Wiirden's order ;" for they will not write to the Warden, and consequently wmcnESTEE. it rids me of tliat kind of correspondence. 380. {Lord Clftreiidoii.) I see the Warden ap- points the mathematical master, and the masters in French and German : can he do that without con- sulting you ?— He would not do so, but I suppose he miglif. If we want a French master, I cannot take ujjon myself to appoint him, because ho is to instruct tlie scholars. I am content the person ap- pointed should instruct the commoners, but I cannot; appoint a person to instruct the scholars. Therefore if we want a French master, I must make inquiries, hut the appointment must be made by the Warden. 381. The Warden also appoints the college tutor ? — Yes. 382. What are the duties of the college tutor r The college tutor is a modern innovation. We had a system in old times, which was statuteable in fact, by which the college prefects acted as tutors to the lower college boys, and it operated extremely well in my judgment. A college prefect had about si.x pupils among the lesser boys, and he was in a great measure responsible for them. If the master wanted to know about a little boy, he sent for the boy tutor, and asked him " Is this boy going on " well ?" The boy tutor looked over his pupil's compositions, and made him alter them until they were as nearly correct as he could make them ; and then they were sent up to the master. When Mr. Wordsworth came here as second master, lie did not like that plan; he had been at another school; it had prevailed traditionally with us, and he repre- sented to the Warden that it was a bad thing for one boy to look over another boy's composition ; it would be much better to have a man to do it. The Warden acceded to that, and appointed Mr. Lee, the present Warden, college tutor, which office he held for twenty years. He became the tutor to superintend the compositions of all the college boys, except the sixth form, and that plan we have continued. We have now another gentleman in his place. 383. {Lord Clarc?idon.) I will just ask you whether, consistently with the maintenance of this system, which, upon the whole, you would not wish to see destroyed, of the Warden and Fellows, yon have ever thought of any scheme by which the Fel- lows might be made .available for educational pur- poses ? — I hope that may never be thought of. 384. You do not think they could take any part in the work of the school ? — Certainly not. I .should like such a plan about as well as a captain of a ship would like to have Lords of the Admiralty serving under him as lieutenants. 38o. {Lord Lyttelton.) What is a "boy tutor" ? — That is a point I spoke of just now ; some of the senior prefects have pupils among the junior boys. 386. ( Lord Clarendon.) Is that an ancient sj's- tem ? — Yes ; that has grown out of the statutes. ' William of Wykeham desired that his relations when they came to this school should be put under the charge of one of the prefects ; " Unum de scholaribus pro- " vectioribus et discretioribus ejusdem coUegii ;" and that has grown into the system of boy tutors, 387. Did he contemplate that there should be a certain stipend to these boy tutors ? — No ; I do not think there is anything in the statutes about payment to the boy tutors. 388. {Lord Lyttelton.) Can you state what the boy tutor is expected to do ? — Now he is not expected to do so much. The introduction of the College tutor has broken in upon that. When I was a boy at the school, the position of a boy tutor was very distinct from that. I had pupils as a boy, and two or tliree of my old tutors are about in the world ; they were kindly tutors to me. The tutor required the boy to do his composition in time. If a boy could not do his lesson, he went to the boy tutor, and he helped him. He told the boy to sit down, and made him do it with him. You had a more immediate close superinten- dence. If the boy tutor overlooked a mistake perhaps, Uu Itev. G. Mvbeili/. 30 May 18G2. 338 PUBLIC SCHOOLS COMMISSION: — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. Iter. G. Moberly. 30 May 1862. WINCHESTER, llie master came down on the boy tutor and made liim do the exercise correctly. I cannot tell you how much I have lost from my seniors not acting as hoy tutors. The boy tutor would correct mistakes of the little boy ; now he makes all the blunders himself. Again, he dealt with the pupil as a boy, whereas the College tutor who has these things to do deals with liim as a man. A boy dealing with a boy is more effectual in that way than a man dealing with boys. 389. You introduced the College tutor ?— It was Mr. Wordsworth's suggestion, not liking the Win- chester plan, and it was adopted by the then Warden. If I had had my way I should have introduced the College tutor for the sixth form, but left the boys below the sixth form to the boy tutors. What we •want at this day at the top of the school is more effective work, because if you make the top of your school work, you make the bottom of your school work ; on the other hand, if you work hard at the bottom of the school, it does not follow that the top will work hard. ' 390. I do not see what the boy tutor in the present system does ? — They have the charge of the little boys, .and a small part of the composition is still in their hands. They are looked upon as re- sponsible, in a great degree, for the care of their juniors. If a little boy is going on amiss my habit is 'to send for his boy tutor, and ask his opinion as to the general behaviour of the boy, i.e., his diligence, conduct, language, and so on. He lias the charge of him. 391. Is he a sort of client of his ? — Yes. 392. Does he defend him ? — Yes, if anybody bullied him or hurt him he would go to his boy tutor. It is an excellent relation ; I only wish it were more complete. 393. {Sir S. Northcote.) Do I understand that the Warden, being on excellent terms with yourself, made so importiint a change in the system of the school as the introduction of a man tutor instead of boy tutors, against your judgment as Head Master? — No; I do not say that. I am talking now of old times. This is a matter of 26 years ago. In those days the late Warden and the then second master (the Bishop of St. Andrew's, as he now is) were very active meu ; they travelled rather faster than I did. It was done not according to my judgment, but rather the other way. I do not mean to say I objected or protested against it. 394. Then it comes to this — the Warden does take such a direct share in the management of the school that he would make changes on the suggestion of a subordinate master, even without their being entirely in accordance with the Head Master's judg- ment ? — I apprehend it would be different in case the Head Master said, " This is an extremely wrong " thing, and ought not to be done." I apprehend the W.arden would not do it then. 395. But he exercised an independent judgment in that matter ? — Yes. 396. {Lord Clarendon.^ On that occasion you did not protest against it ? — No ; I only mean to say it was not the way I should have done it. 397. {Mr. Vaughan.) Do you happen to know how long the sum of a guinea has been paid to the boy tutors ? — A long while. 398. So long th.it it was a reasonable sum when paid originally ? — That sum certainly was paid half a century ago. 399. {Lord Clarendon.) 14.— "The proposed in- " crease of the number of the scholars from 70 to " 100, as ordered by the Oxford University Com- " missioners, is quite as great as is desirable." The statutary number of scholars is 70 ? — Yes. 400. On wh.at ground did the Commissioners pro- pose to increase the number ? — Because as tliey proposed to reduce the number of fellowships, there ■would be a certain fund unappropriated, and they proposed to cut those fellowships up into scholarships. They thought it would be more to the advantage of the College that there should be ten scholarships than one fellowship, at least, I suppose so. 401. 15. — "The election of scholars having been " made in former years by nomination on the part of " the electors, has for the last seven years, with great " advantage, been conducted by the means of open " competition." Has there not been some little com- plaint of the notice not having been sufficiently piiblic either of the time of election or the requirements ? — So far as we can judge such a complaint is extremely ridiculous. We do all we can. We have perfectly open competition, and have an immense number of candidates. We are overwhelmed with candidates. Last year there was a letter from somebody to " The Times" newspaper, to complain that the election was not sufficiently known. The consequence was that we had an enormous quantity of appli<;ations. What can we do ? A notice is put into " The Times " every time there is an election, and circulars are sent to every one who makes any inquiry about it. What can people want more ? There will always be a certain number whom neither one or other of these things ever reaches, and they will complain that they have not been told ; but you cannot tell the whole w^orld. 402. Election by open competition has proved a great success? — Yes. I state in the little book I have before referred to, " The open elections have been " essentially successful. In point of ability, good " coiaduct, and general promise, we have lost nothing " and we have gained much. We do not now know " what it is to have a thoroughly stupid boy a scholar; " the school is much more widely known, and with " this our connexion is materially increased. Our " elections are, no douljt, very laborious, for we have " had about 100 candidates every year ; but it is our " own fault if, out of so many, we cannot find enough " boys to fill our vacancies of a very high mark." People send their sons, and take it for granted they are all to come in, the truth being that for an average of 14 admissions every year we have an average of 100 candidates. 403. This is one of the circulars you send ? — Yes ; we send them by the hundred. People write and ask how they are to get their sons in, and these circulars are sent back. The open competition has had the effect I have stated in this little book. Much benefit has been derived to the school from the coming of boys from all parts. Of old we had a small connexion, and a considerable narrowness in the system altogether. We were comparatively poor in boys. This open competition brings boys of all abilities, of all families, from all parts of the country, and so spreads our connexion very widely. 404. By whom is the examination for scholarships conducted ? — Ry the same body of electors as the elections for New College. Practically they leave much of the work in my hands, for I set the papers. 405. {Mr. Vauglian.) Who gives the marks ? — I think all the electors read the papers more or less. Each marks according to his discretion. 406. {Lord Li/ttelton.) About the qualification for scholarships, according to the 12th head of the ordinance no part of the old statute is left except, to a certain extent, the preference of poverty ? — That, I am afraid, is only a cceteris paribus pre- ference. 407. " The electors may refuse to admit as a pre- " ference candidate any one they may deem to be " not in need of a scholarship, and all other things " being equal in candidates, shall h.ave regard to the " pecuniary circumstances of candidates." That would disqualify a peer's son for instance ? — Yes. 408. Has that ever happened ? — No ; I have known two or three people, who.se sons would be eligilde candidates, who declined to send them. 409. Suppose a rich man sent his son ? — I appre- hend it would be for the electors to say, " This is " not a proper boy to come." 410. Has the cceteris paribtis preference of poverty ever been acted upon ? — I can hardly recollect that it ever has. 411. It would be acted upon? — Certainly. We PUBLIC SCHOOLS COMMISSION : — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. have, IIS far as we can, been disposed rather to err on the liberal side iu these matters. We have elected within the last two or three years bojs of rather low parentage, giving them an opportunity of doing well. They have not in thsso cases turned out to be such promising boys as we supposed. 412. i^3Ir. Vatig/ian.) Do you happen to know what proportion of the scholars, since the elections have been open, have been taken from the boys of the school, and what proportion from boys coming from elsewhere ? — I can hardly tell with any exactness. Sometimes we have produced 12 candidates from the school, and perhaps three or four have been elected. I suppose in no instance more than that. Some- times we find in commoners we have very good can- didates for College. 413. Three or four out of what number ? How many are elected? — What we do is this : if we have 100 boys, we send off 50 after the first preliminary examination, and keep 50 for a further examination. Then we con- struct a roll consisting of 25 or 30 boys to fill up the vacancies for the ensuing year. Upon that roll we may have to put four or five from the school, and out of that roil of 25 an average of about 14 succeed in getting their admission. 414. Fourteen is the age, after which no boy can be elected a scholar ? — Yes. 415. Do you find that after that ago many boys, not having obtained scholarships, leave your school. Do they leave at that particular period more th.au any other? — I do not feel conscious of their having done so. 416. Is it the case, that taking the proportion of scholars and commoners the proportion of commoners to scholars is very much greater in the lower part of the school than in the upper part of the school ? — Yes ; and it is very much greater since the open competition ; the greater part of our quick and clever commoners stand for College, and get in as scholars ; the consequence is that the upper part of the school is filled with scholars, and the lower jiart with com- moners. 417. Must not that be owing to the commoners leaving the school at an earlier age ? — No ; boys of 15 or 16 still linger in the lower part of the school sometimes. I do not think they leave for that cause at all. 418. At the time there is an examination for scho- larships, is there or is there not going on an election for exhibitions ? — There has been for the last seven years. 419. Are those the exhibitions which have been founded under the ordinance ? — Yes. 420. Have 3'ou elected to many of those ? — We have elected to several in diHerent years. Last year we proposed to elect two, but it was thought by the electors that none of the candidates came up to what they supposed to be the right standard, and none were elected. The year before they did elect two. 421. The age of superannuation for exhibitions is one year later than the age of superannuation for scholarships ? — Yes. 422. Is it general that the candidates for exhibi- tions are the persons who have failed for scholar- ships ? — No, there is a certain number, a list of 14 or 15, exclusively candidates for exhibitions. Among those are boys who have in former years failed for scholarships. Those exhibitions, indeed, have been very useful in this way, — the open challenge for scholarships causes all the best blood of the school to go into College, and so leaves the commoners few and comparatively inferior at the top of the school ; consequently, if it were not for those exhibitions, there would be no fight between the two parts of the school ; all the best blood would be drained into the College, and the commoners would be few at the top of the school. » 423. Do you find as a matter of fact, that there are any boys of the highest merit, who would prefer being exhibitioners to being scholars, and would take an exhibition in preference to taking a scholarship ? — Some do. We have got scholars, and we have got commoners ; and each think commoners or scholars the best. Every boy who goes into College and become a scholar says, "Now I am happy."' The scholars are the leading part of the school, and they think scholars are best. The commoners, on the other hand, think commoners much the best. Any boy passing from one to the other will tell you he has bettered his condition. It never goes to anything beyond kindly, friendly talk with one another; but there is always that esprit dc corps amongst us, and therefore it is that some commoners do not want to go into College. At this moment we have two commoners who are candidates for exhibitions, and not for scholarships. 424. You may say they prefer to keep their stations iis commoners, and the exhibition has had that efl'ect ? — I do not know that it is the exhibition that has done so ; they do not want to go into College. 425. {Lord Lyttelton.) Are the scholarships open without distinction of commoners or scholars ?^Per- fectly. 426. That has been in operation some years, has it not ? — Yes. 427. Do you find any superiority as between com- moners and scholars ? — Upon the whole the scholars are considerably the superior, and it would be more so but for this statutory exhibition. Usually, perha])S, we find one or two commoners enter into competition for it. If it were not for the exhibition, we should find the commoners would be falling out of the field, at least in the upper part of the school. 428. There is no difference at all of a social kind between commoners and scholars ; there is no dis- tinction of class ? — None whatever. We have had, within the last few years, what was a new thing until then, /. c, boys who have been superannuated in College come back to the school as commoners. 429. {Mr. Vatighan.) As to the status of ex.- hibitioners, do they not become less connected with the foundation as regards their falling under the superintendence of the Warden and Fellows than if they became scholars ? — When the statutory exhi- bition was first set on foot I regretted it a little, inasmuch as I had an impression it would take the commoners out of my own control somewhat, and I wrote to the Commissioners that I rather excepted against it. I said " I highly approve of the " proposal to establish exhibitions, but I have an ob- " jeefion to the exhibitioners being taken out of my " control and put under a qxiasi subjection to the " College authorities ;" but I was overruled on the ground that if they received the College funds they ought to be under the College superintendence. No doubt the Warden and Fellows would always pay respect to the opinion of the Head Master, Tvhateyer it might be. 430. {Lord Devon.) You said that there were occa- sional instances of disinclination to go into College and a preference for exhibitions : do you conceive that it in any measure arises from an impression on the part of the boys, or the boys' parents, unfavourable to the lodging or diet provided for the scholars ? — No, not in the least ; it is merely this, that a boy, being a commoner, thinks commoners are best. If he got into College he would say College is best. 431 . Do you think that applies to the parents, or do you think that the parents are under the impression the accommodation in College is not so good as in your house ? — Not in the least. 432. {Mr. Vatighan.) You think it is a matter of sentiment ? — Quite so ; and also of inexperience. 433. {Lord L^yttelton.) With regard to the open competition, by whom was it suggested ? — It was introduced by the authority of the Visitor, 434. But at the same time you say there was some little doqbt about it. Was it suggested by the Oxford Commissioners ? — It was suggested before the Oxford Commission. 435. Before any inquiry took place ? — Yes. It was done altogether by the authority of the Bishop of Winchester, as Visitor. Uu 2 WlNCnESTEE liev. G. Moberli/, 30 May 18G2. SiO PUBLIC SCHOOLS COMMISSION: — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. WINCHESTER. 436. By his authority, or at his suggestion ?— It was done at Eton before it was done here, and the ^Y'.' Bishop being ou the most intimate terms with Dr. G. Alubarly. jjj^^yf,.gy^ thought it would be a good thing to in- 30 May 1862. Iroduce it here ; he communicated with Dr. Hawtrey . ,ind received a full report of its success. When he proposed it here I rather objected to it, and I wrote one or two letters to the Visitor, de{)recating it ; but he overruled my views in the matter, and it was instituted. 437. It was clearly within his power ; there is nothing in the old statutes to the contrary ? — No. 438. {Lord Clarendon.) 17. "The statutes do con- " template the admission of some other boys, JUii " nobilium, to partake of the education of the school." I understand the statutes which contemplated ^/(j nobilium iutemled them to be excluded from the scholarships, i.e., tohc outside of the scholars' institu- tion or foundation ? — The statutes certainly intended that they were to be excluded from the scholarships, but they were still to be as regarded instruction in the position of collegers ; and they always have been so. 439. 18. " In the case of new boys, there is a " further charge of 111. 18s. 6d. entrance fees, and " a few boys have separate private tutors at the charge " of 51. by the half-year." How is that arranged. Upon what does it depend ? — That is the thing I have been speaking about, which I find rather a diffi- culty in introducing. My own impression is this : I think the boys at the top of a public school waut more help than can be given by the master who hears the form. It seems to me, the quantity of learning which can be obtained in class work, though as much as will save a boy from punishment or complaint, is not as much as he ought to learn and is capable ot learning ; therefore I think, besides any amount of class instruction, he wants something else ; something to tell upon his own personal needs, to make known to himself his personal deficiencies, and to suggest the means of filling them up ; in short, to give that which class instruction generally must fail to give. 440. You are alluding now to the upper boys ? — I am alluding altogether to the upper boys ; therefore it has been a great object with me to introduce pri- vate tutors in the school. It is very alien, I am sorry to say, to the genius of the school ; indeed, there was a time when private tuition was by the direction of a former Warden forbidden altogether. 441. Have you been able to abrogate that law ? — I have taken no account of it. The fact is, no such law is put on record. 442. Was it the Warden and Fellows who made that law ? — I think so. It is not recorded. The sys- tem of private tutors began about five years ago ; I had a gentleman then who had about 20 private pupils; he was here merely as a private tutor ; he had not any school work at all. When I made the change, which brought as many as 80 boj's into my part of the school, I brought from Oxford a young m.an, Mr. Charles Griffith, to hear a class of some 20 of my senior boys ; and as he had not his time fully occu- pied, I thought that was a very good opportunity of beginning the introduction of private tutors. I said to some of my senior boys, " Here is a young man " coming from Oxford to help me ; he is a very good " scholar, a Craven scholar, of Wadham College ; if " your fathers you wish to have a private tutor, I dare ," say he might find time to take six or eight pupils." I There were some boys who suggested it themselves. Now Mr. Du Boulay is here as fourth master, I allow him to take a few pupils ; and Mr. Hawkins, the assist- ant mathematical master, does the same. Mr. Griffith, Mr. Du Boulay, and Mr. Hawkins in mathematics, have each some private pupils, and if I had more pri- vate tutors there are more boys who would be glad to avail themselves of their assistance. I may add, that Mr. Whale, the writing master, has a few pupils in arithmetic. 443. You are introducing the system ? — Yes ; but there is a very natural and proper feeling on the part of the College authorities that the scholars ought not to be liable to such a charge, at least without the fullest consent on the part of the parents. At this time the three tutors have several pupils among the scholars as well as the commoners at the same pay- ment of 5/. each the half-year. 444. With the consent of the parents ? — Yes ; not only must the parent of a scholar consent before I allow liim to have a private tutor, but I require an actual letter expressly requesting that he may have one. 445. Do the parents ever object ? — Not to me. 446. They probably think it gives the boys a better chance ? — Yes ; they can hardly fight a good battle unless they have that instruction. 447. Does not that instruction give those who have it an undue advantage over the other boys ? — To a certain extent it must be so ; it is an advantage to have a private tutor. If I could have my own way, I should h.ave private tutors for the whole of the upper school. In my judgment the system of private tutors is one of very great value indeed. It is touching upon a tender place, but the truth is that the point in which we are below other schools, is that the Head Master has too many boys under him, i. e., two forms when he ought to have only one. 448. [Lord Lyitelton.) How many boys has the Head Master altogether ? — Under my charge I have 80 boys, but I have a tutor who takes 20 of those, i.e., from the 21st to the 40th ; practically I have under my sole instruction in class 60 boys. It is not only that the duty is a good deal, for it always will be, and I would not put it upon that ; it is this : — If the Head Master has a single class, if he is a man of vigour and activity, the moment the boys come into his class they are the liveliest in the school. There is a great deal of spirit and vigour in the class ; they ai'e encouraged to exertion, and all is going on happily. If it is the top class of the school which be has the charge of, that vigour and activity will last to the top of the school ; but if he has another cl.ass, beginning at boy 41 and going down to boy 80, that class will lie the one which feels all that encouragement and all that life. The class of which I brought that record this morning is my class, i.e., from boy 41 to boy 80, and it is the liveliest, the most vigorous, and most successful class in the school. But that will not con- tinue to be so if the whole 80 are under the Head Master. Boys remaining under the same Master during the three or four years in which they pass from the 80th to the top of the school, lose much of their vigour and freshness. They come to be familiar with his manner, the things he does, the observations he makes, the points he insists upon, and so on, which ought to be kept fresh for the last stage. At least that is the danger. 449. {Mr. Vaughan.) As he takes two classes, what is the reason that the Head Master does not take the two head classes, but takes the head class, and then, not the next class to that, but the third class in the school ? — That has been the result of a good deal of consideration. When I came here first, with Mr. Wordsworth, 25 years ago, we reconstructed the school a good deal, and I did a thing then which I have re- pented of ever since, which was ex.actly in the direc- tion of your question, i. e., I took the first division myself, I gave the second master the second division, the third master the third division, the fourth master the fourth division, and I think I made a great mistake. I should have done better if I had divided the school into two halves, and given the upper half to the Head Master, with assistants, and the lower half to the second master, with assistants. Instead of put- ting the whole of two divisions into the hands of assistants, it would have been a better thing to have divided the school into two halves. Under the ordinance of the Oxford Commissioners it became necessary to enlarge the area from which boys were to be elected to New College, in order to supply six scholars every year to that College. I therefore found it necessary to get as many as 80 boys into the upper division, because the lower PUBLIC SCHOOLS COMMISSION : —MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 341 classes are busy chiefly with elementary matters of grammar, aiul hardly anything beyond that ; and when they come into my classes they are introduced to the higher classics, e. g., they begin to read Sophocles and books of that kind. I wanted to get a larger choice of boys reading such books, who might become ready to go to the university. I tiierefore feH I must take into my own hands a greater number. But there was this ditficulty ; if I put the lower division of my own boj's under an assistant, it would be putting an assistant above the second master, which is an awkward thing to do. At the same time bojs do not get any great encouragement from coming wholly into the hands of an assistant. I therefore took the whole into my own hands, and ar- ranged for my assistant to take the second 20 boys, I still retaining the entire charge of the next 40. 450. {Sir S. Northcote.) I do not understand what you disapprove of when you say you have too many boys ; do you mean having the first and third classes together is too much ? — I think that, too ; but what I meant particularly to suggest, as ray own thought, is that the Head Master had better have one class only, because he wastes all his peculiar prestige on the other boys. I think he ought to teach one class wholly, and to have time to examine all the other classes in the school occasionally. 451. There seems a little inconsistency between that and what you said about the advantage of boys coming to you in the first place, and then going to the master of the second class, in the middle, and coming back to you ? — I think, if I could institute what I suggested just now — a division of the school into two halves — I should have only a sufficient number of boys under my own superintendence ; they should have gone through the hands of the other masters, and I should have a tutor to help me with my own boys. Now the second master has the second division of the school, and I should feel, in the present position of things, that he might naturally be displeased if I were to bring a tutor from Oxford, and put him above the class the second master teaches ; so that I use my tutor to help me in the middle division of my own boys. 452. That is to say, if the first three classes are to be taught by you and your assistant tutor, you think it is better he should have the middle one and you the first and third ? — Yes ; than that he should have class to himself above the second master. 453. {Lord Clarendon.) I see amongst the bills an item, "Porter ordered from the wine merchant ;" is that for a special case, for a boy who has it ordered medically ? — Yes, a boy who has been unwell ; they have to say, " This boy is weak, or sickly ; will you " allow him to have a bottle of porter ?" That gives us a check upon the quantity they take. 454. About what proportion of boys would that occur to ? — It depends rather upon management. To my astonishment, my housekeepei' told me, about a year ago, that there had been such a consumption of porter or bitter ale that she had drawn 144 dozen during the half-year. The fact was that we had been allowing it much too freely, and I required a medical certificate, which checked the evil a great deal. 455. You have 92 boys in your house ; about how many are allowed to have porter, under a medical certificate ? — About half a dozen. 456. Have the scholars the power of having the same thing if it is ordered for them ? — I have no doubt they would, if it were medically desirable ; the probability is, it would be done in the sick-house. 457. Question 20 is, " Are there any boys partici- pating in the general instruction of the school who " lodge and board either with their parents or in " other houses not recognized as boarding houses by " the authorities of the school." You say there are uo such boys, i. e. no day boys ? — No ; we have been often pressed to take day boys, and we should like to have them if the school were sufficiently large. Our acreage is not enough ; we cannot do it. 458. To question 21 you say you have not yet been able to frame any complete rules as to the organization of the other boarding houses, i. e. other than your own? WINCHESTEU. — Only this : — hitherto all the commoners have been "^ in my house, and so we have had a very complete and G. Moberly. fixed system ; but when we first instituted those houses it was necessary to make rules as to when the boys 30 May lSfi2. should come in and how they should come ; and such rules it is very difficult to lay down a priori, so we began without rules and made rules as we found occa- sion for them. We have not yet finished. When Mr. Du Boulay's house is built, which is a quarter of a mile o&, we shall be obliged to make some additional bye- laws, the boys will have to come so far. For instance, these boys do not come to morning chapel. Whether I shall be able to get them to chapel or not I do not know, ))Ut at present they do not come. We have not given up all hope. At present the hour is 7 a.m. ; until this last half year it was 6 a.m. 459. Question 22 is, " Is there one uniform kind of " domiciliary accommodation furnished to all the boys " of the school, if so, what is its nature ?" You say " There are about 20 private studies in the Head " Master's house, a prefect's library, and a hall, where " the majority of the commoners sit and do their work " in the evening." I think we saw three of those pri- vate studies yesterday ? — Yes. 4G0. Have you anything to add to that ? — No. 461. {Mr. Vaughan.') Is it seniority absolutely which determines who shall have the private stu- dies ? — I generally give them to the seniors. 462. If a boy loses his place, and gets down in the school, do 3'ou take his private study from him ? — It would be rather too great a slur on a boy to take his study away. If I lot him get so high in the school as that, I should hardly take it from him. 463. Is there one boy in each of the private stu- dies ? — Yes. 464. {Lord LyUeUon.) Did you understand the question to apply to the commoners ? — Yes. All I have done is, instead of meeting the question ex- pressly, to state what we do with our boys. 465. {Lord Devon.) In the case of boys who have not studies, — the other 70 or 80 boys, — what work they do out of school, they do in their own bed-rooms ? — Not in their own bed-rooms, in the other hall. You must remember that the peculiarity of this school as compared with others, is that the boys learn their lessons in school ; our school hours are so long, we have not only hours for saying each lesson, but for learning it. 466. If they are not in the school, have they an opportunity of sitting down in their bed-rooms ? — The scholars alwa^'s after 6 p.m. 467. But your boys ? — No; there are no accommo- dations in commoners for reading in their bedrooms. They are merely sleeping rooms, and therefore we keep them out. 468. Then all the accommodation the boys have is that large school and a common hall or chamber ? — Yes. 469. {Lord Clarendon.) You do not think that meat is necessary more than once a day ? — No ; I have myself been brought up, and my children have been brought up, and the boys have in all former times been brought up to be satisfied with meat at dinner only, and bread and butter at breakfast and tea. I have recently instituted a supper of bread and cheese at 8.30 p.m. 470. {Sir S. Northcote.) Is it the practice of the boys to get meat in for breakfast or for tea ? — Occasionally ; the parents send them hams and other things, and I allow my man servant to let them be kept in a room below, and they have those things in. 471. Are they allowed to got anything in the town ? — No ; that we do not allow. 472. Only what is sent to the house ? — Yes. 473. {Lord Clarendon.) 26. " There is a pastry- " cook's shop within bounds"? — Yes. 474. You say " But there is no sort of occasion " that any boy should ever enter it." I suppose there is no question that the boys do go to it ? — No ; some boys go to it very often. TJ u .3 PUBLIC SCHOOLS COMMISSION: — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. WINCHESTER. Pev. G. Moberhj. 47.J. Question 27 is, " What is the system upon " which furniture is proviiled for the boj's' rooms, " and wliiit cliarges are made in respect of it ? " You say, " tlie furniture for the use of the commoners is 30 May 18G2. " provided at the expense of the boarding ma.sters." . How is tliat at your own house ? — Simply that I fur- nisli everything except those little studies. I put in t!io table and stool, but all those lounges are their own putting in. 476. {Sir S. Northcole.) Are they expected to pay for breakages; windows, crockery, or anything of that sort ? — I make them pay for windows, because other- wise it would be the best pastime in the world to bieak all the windows ; but they have never been charged for anything else. I am not sure it would not be a good thing to do ; it would check a good deal of mischief ; but I have never done it. 477. {Lord Clarendon.) Question 28 is, " With " whom does the selection of the boarding-house in " which the boy lodges rest ? " You say, " With the " parents exclusively." " Is a recommendation com- '• monly given by any of the school authorities ?" I suppose practically the parents do not apply to you to recommend a house ? — No, very rarely. I have laid down a law, which I find it will be necessary to adhere to strictly in future ; not to allow boys to go from cue house to another. 478. Question 29. " How many of the classical, " mathematical, and other masters and assistant- " masters keep boarding-houses ? Is it a privilege " which any of them are unable to obtain ? How " many boarding-houses (if any) are kept by pcr- " sons taking no part in the work of teaching ? " You say, " The Rev. H. J. Wickham keeps one " boarding-house. He was a tutor in connnoners, but " now merely acts as private tutor to his own boys." Mr. Wickham is the second master ? — J^o ; this is the gentleman who was a tutor in commoneris, and happened to have a house of his own. He was the first boarding tutor I appointed. He was a tutor in commoners, and now merely acts as private tutor lo his own boys. Mr. Moberly, my nephew, is the third master in the school. 479. "The Rev. H. Moberly teaches the fourth " book or class in school. None of the other assistant " masters take boarders"? — He does not now teach the fourth class, he teaches a higher class ; Mr. Uu Boulay teaches the fourth class, and he is building a house to take boarders. 480. " It rests, I apprehend, with the Head Master " to appoint persons to take boarders, with the " sanction of the Warden?" Do you consider the sanction of the Warden is necessary to appoint per- sons to take boarders ? — Yes, I should think so. I do not know how it is by the constitution as a matter of right, but I should never think of appointing a person without his sanction. 481. I will now call your attention to another point. One of our colleagues, who is nnfortunately prevented from being present, has furnished us with a memorandum on the inadequacy of the instruction given in your College, in the physical sciences ; with I'eferenco particularly to what took place between the Oxford Commissioners and the Warden and Fellows on that subject. I will read this statement to recal the circumstances to your recollection, and will then put a question upon it : — " In the original scheme of the Commissioners for " issuing new ordinances to Winchester College, it " was proposed that three of the college fellowships " .should for the future be filled up with special refc- " rence to the excellence of candidates in one or more *' of the physical sciences, and that the three Fellows " elected to those fellowships should be bound to give " lectures to the school boys in that dejiartnient of " knowledge. In reference to this part of the scheme, " the Commissioners wrote as follows, in a letter dated " Great Queen Street, Westminster, April 15, 1856," " and signed by Mr. Goldwin Smith, one of the ■" secretaries of the Conmiission : — " ' One part of the scheme of the Commissioners, " ' that which alms at ensuring instruction in the " ' physical sciences to the boys at Winchester " ' School, by providing that three of the Fellows " ' shall be elected with special reference to their " ' excellence in those sciences, and shall give lec- " ' tures in them to the boys in the school, must, the " ' Commissioners are aware, depend for its success " ' on the willingness of the governing body of the " ' school to introduce the physical sciences among " ' the subjects of instruction, and to facilitate the " ' attendance of the boys at the lectures of the three " ' Fellows appointed for that purpose. The Com- " ' missioners therefore desire to learn whether the '• ' College are disposed to co-operate with them in " ' this respect bei'oi-e they frame more specific regu- " ' lations for carrying out this portion of their " ' scheme. But, to them, it appears that good elemenr " ' tary instruction in physical science is most essential " ' in the case of many boys, desirable in all cases, " ' and perfectly compatible with a first rate classical " ' education. The object might be effected without " ' prej udice to other studies, by setting apart two or " ' three hours every week for lectures in the phy^ " ' sical sciences, by putting good elementary works '' ' on the subject into the hands of the boys, and by " ' examining them on the lectures once at least in " ' every half year.' " On the following 29th of April, the scheme of the " Commissioners was rejected, as a whole, by the " Warden and Fellows, on grounds not specially con ■ " nectcd with the proposed appropriation of three " fellowships to the promotion of the physical " sciences. In regard to this particular proposal, the *' only statement of the College was contained in the " following passage of a letter of Dr. Barter, Warden '■ of the College, dated ' Winchester College, May " 5th, 1856,' and addressed to Mr. Goldwin Smith :— " ' We would gladly sec our fellowships applied to " ' the promotion of learning in this place, especially " ' by making them an attraction and a reward to " ' talented and deserving masters. With respect to " ' the proposal of devoting three of them to the pror " ' motion of physical science, we would only suggest " ' the fear that first-rate men (and no others would, " ' in the capacity of lecturers, be either for the " ' honour or good of this College) would neither find " ' sufficient employment nor emolument.' "In consequence of the rejection of their first " scheme, the Commissioners subsequently framed " another scheme of ordinances for Winchester Coir " lege ; and in communicating with the Warden on " the subject, they wrote as follows on the subject of " instruction in the physical sciences, in a letter dated " November 4th, 1856, and signed by the Rev. S. W. " Wayte, one of the secretaries of the Commission : — " ' In reference to the opinion expressed by the " ' Warden and Fellows of Winchester College re- " ' specting that part of the former scheme of the " ' Commissioners by which it was proposed to devote " ' three of the fellowships of AVinchcster College to " 'the purpose of instruction in the physical sciences, " ' the Commissioners direct me to inquire by what " 'means the Warden and Fellows would propose to " ' secure competent instruction in the physical " ' sciences at the school, if the three fellowships are " ' not so appropriated.' " To the letter in which this passage occurred, the " Warden replied, by a letter dated ' Winchester Col- *' ' lege, December 8th, 1856,' in which there was the " following passage : — " ' With respect to the required instruction in " * physical science, on the means of providing which " ' the Commissioners have been good enough to " ' express a readiness to receive our views, we ^' ' would engage from time to time the best lecturers " ' of the day in the various branches of such science, '.' ' who should come to Winchester and give our " ' scholars successive courses of lectures. The in- " ' struction thus imparted would, we believe, be " ' more interesting, of a higher kind, and more in " ' unison with the yearly progress of science than i PUBUC SCHOOLS COMMISSION : — MINUTES OF EVIDENCK 343 " ' could bo obtained from Professors, who -would " ' accept our fellowships and confine themselves to " ' the duties assigned to them.' " " To this passage in the Warden's letter the Com- " missioners gave a reply as follows, in a letter dated " January 12th, 1857, and signed by Mr. Goldwin " Smith, as secretary, which finidly closed the cor- " respondence on the subject of instruction in the " physical sciences at Winchester : — " ' The Commissioners receive with pleasure the " ' proposal of the College to engage from time to " ' time the best lecturei's of the day in the various " ' branches of physical science to come to Winchester " ' and give the scholars successive courses of lec- " ' tures ; and in reliance on the College acting on " ' this system, or on a system equally eiiicient, they " ' abstain from pressing their former propositions iu " ' reference to this subject.' " Perhaps you will have the goodness to inform us in the first place in what manner that proposal of the College which certainly appears to us to go to the extent of a pledge, has been carried out? — I remember that correspondence taking place, and I recollect perfectly that when the suggestion of the Commis- sioners was first made we talked it over together here and we thought the plan was utterly impracticable, i.e. that a gentleman, a man of science, could be got to come to Winchester upon a scientific professorship of 500/. a year, to live in a country towu, to lecture only to boj's, with no prospect of making anything in the way of profit or of reputation be3'ond his salary. No one but a very small person would accept it in the first place, and such a person would grow smaller and smaller every year. We therefore thought it an impracticable suggestion, and I remem- ber when the College was asked what it would pro- pose to do instead, this answer was given, viz., that lecturers should be hired every year to give the boys lectures upon this or that subject. With the actual wording of the letters I had nothing to do ; indeed I neversaw them ; but it was by my advice, at least in some measure, that the answer was given. I recom- mended that we should bring from London some eminent professors in the physical sciences, one after another, to deliver courses of lectures. I intended that it should be annual, as did the Warden also, and that we have canied out. The first year we, desired that the course should be on chemistry. I had the conducting of the correspondence, and I wrote to the professor of chemistry at Oxford to ask whom he would recommend, and upon his recommendation we brought down Dr. Odling, who gave us on Satur- days a course of 12 lectures on chemistry, and on chemical products, which were extremely interesting; and from which several of the boys derived a great deal of good. Many did not care about it, but several took an interest in the subjects which continued after the lectures. The second year we had a course of lectures on geology by Mr. Rupert Jones, one of the secretaries of the Geological Society, re- commended by Professor Philips of Oxford. Then for three successive years we had the same gentle- man. Dr. No.ad, who I think is professor of chemistry at St. George's Hospital, who was strongly recom- mended by Dr. Tyndale. He lectured to us first on electricity ; last year he gave us a course of lectures on heat ; and now he is giving a course of lectures on the constituents and properties of water and atmospheric air. We have had three lectures, and we are going to have another to-morrow. Dr. Noad is a very good lecturer, and the boys take a good deal of interest in the subjects. So far then as the College did undertake to do that, they have done it, and at a cost of about 100 guineas a year. 482. As I understand it, these lectures would .imount to about 12 in the course of the year ? — We have hardly more than 10 a year now. 483. That pledge, as it must be considered, was given to the Oxford Commissioners when they wei'C about to make some ordinance or regulation on the subject, and they stayed their hands in consequence Rev. G. Muberly. 30 May I8C2. of that assurance by the Warden and Fellows. Then WINCHESTER, having had your attention called to the coriespondence that took place, do you think 10 lectures a year can be said to be carrying out that pledge ? — I never saw the correspondence at all. All I was cognizant of was that a proposal had come from the Commissioners to institute three scientific fellowships ; and I confess I spoke very strongly about it. I thought, and the Warden thought, we should have very inferior men, i.e., that you could not get a man at the head of his science to come into a provincial town, where there is no activity on scientific subjects, and if good men did come, as there would be no encouragement to them to advance, we should have the lectures of one year repeated in the next, so that, practically, our physical science would stagnate. The Warden, when he got the next letter, told me the Commissioners acquiesced in that view, and wished to know what the College would propose. I myself suggested what we are now doing. I said, " It seems to me the best thing we " can do is to give a course of lectures every year ; " to get men to come down who are au courant with " the science of the day, i. e., one man to give us " lectures on chemistry, another on electricitj', and " so on." In that they acquiesced, and that sugges- tion has been carried out. The Warden's words are stronger, but the words are compatible with that interpretation. 484. You consider the words are compatible with that interpretation and with the way in which the proposal has been carried into execution? — I think so. 485. {Mr. Vaughan.) Do you think that the ex- pression in the correspondence " successive courses of lectures" would imply simjdy one course in each year ? — I have no doubt that is what the Warden meant ; one year one subject, another year another subject. 4S6. {Lord Li/t(cUon.) It appears the Commis- sioners, who had originally suggested, not only lec- tures but examinations, to be founded by the Warden and Fellows, somewhat relaxed that, and when in the last letter they received a proposal, which was simply for lectures, they say they rely on the College doing that or something equally cfKcient : that would be a question of degree, whether ten lectures a year would be sufficient ?^It is a question of degree. How the College viewed it, it is not for me to judge ; I entirely believe they never gave nor intended to give any pro- mise to do more. I feel perfectly certain of it. The Warden's letter, however worded, was written with the idea that a course of lectures such as we have had was what was suggested. Mr. who is an old schoolfellow and friend of mine, wrote to me since this Commission was appointed and expressed great disappointment that the ordinance of the Oxford Commissioners was not carried out more effectually. I said, " I am afraid you have forgotten the corre- " spondeuce which took place. The Commissioners " wished a professorship of physical science, and " when it was suggested that courses of lectures " should be given, the suggestion was accepted." That correspondence I had never seen. 487. Your views as to instruction in physical science are contained in p. 60 of this pamphlet ? — Yes. 488. You say, " It is plainly out of the question " that we should teach chemistry, asti'onomy, geo- " logy, &c. All that is, iu my opinion, possible, and " therefore desirable to attempt, is, that a course of " lectures on each of the chief subjects of science in " turn should be delivered in the school annually by " some person competent to explain the principles of " it, and to exhibit by experiment the last disco- " veries and the present state of science. All the " bo3's will have heard something about it and some " will be greatly interested in it. These may, per- " haps, afterwards pursue the subject for themselves " and reach considerable attainments in it. More " than this I do not think we can aim .at with any " prospect of adequate advant.age ?" — That is my view. U u 4 su PUBLIC SCHOOLS COMMISSION : — MINUTES OF EVIDEXCK' WINCUESrEE. Bev. G. Moberhj. 30 May 1862. 489. {Lord Clarendon.) This is the manner in which the answer of tlie Warden was accepted by the Oxford Commissioners, and the light in which they viewed it: The Commissioners " receive with pleasure the " proposal of the College to engage, from time to time, " tlie best lecturers of the day in the various branches " of Physical Science, to come to Winchester, and " give the scholars successive courses of lectures ; " and in i-elianceon the college .acling on (his system, " equally efficient, they abstain from pressing their " furmer propositions in reference to this subject." Do you not think the College must have meant by that proposal, and the Oxford Commissioners must have understood, more than 10 lectures a year on scientific subjects i — I can only answer that in the same Avay. I was no party to that correspondence. My oiiinion was privately asked by my friend, the Warden, and that is the extent of my participation in the aflair. 490. {Sir S. Korthcote.) 'Ihen you do not con- sider yourself at all responsible for that arrange- ment ; your view is that it is the Warden and Fellows who are responsible ? — Quite so. In carry- ing it out I am the person who takes the trouble of writing to ascertain what lecturers are the best, and so on.° The rest I leave to the Warden and Fellows. They pay the lecturers. 491. Who proposes the number of lectures to be given ; is that a suggestion of your own ? — That lias become a thing which does not need suggesting. We now have an Easter holiday, and after the Easter holiday is over we give lectures every Saturday during the next term. 492. Who, in fact framed the scheme that there should be a course of weekly lectures to be delivered only in summer ? — That was my suggestion in the first place. When a suggestion was asked for on the part of the College as to what was to take the place of those fellowships, I suggested to the AVarden that a course of lectures in the summer term would be the best thing, and he acquiesced in it. 493. {Lord Devon.) What would be the objection to having courses of lectures on Saturday afternoons at other periods of the year ? — I have nothing to say against it. If they could be instituted I should be very glad to listen to them. 494. {Lord Clarendon.) Do you consider they have had any good effect ; that any boys have had their attention permanently attracted to those sub- jects ? — I think many boys have taken an interest in the subjects, and some boys may have had their attention permanently attracted to them, but for a school like this, I consider instruction in physical science, in the way in which we can give it, is worth- less. A few boys who intend to pursue it in any way, either as amateurs or professionally, may get assistance from these lectures. An amateur of a science is the better for knowing the elements of It, and every man of liberal education is the better for not being ignorant of any thing ; but. compared with other things a scientific fact, either as conveyed by a lecturer, or as reproduced in examination, is a fact which produces nothing in a Ijoy's mind. It is simply a barren fact, which he remembers or does not remember for a time, and which after a few years becomes confused with other facts and is for- gotten. It leads to nothing. It does not germinate, it is a perfectly unfruitful fact. 495. {Lord Lyttelton.) You have nothing like rewards for proficiency in these things ? — No ; I am only speaking of my own view of these things. I think, except on the part of those who have a taste for the physical sciences, and intend to pursue them as amateurs or professionally, such instruction is worthless as education. 496. {Sir S. Northcote.) When you say " rcpro- " duced in examination," there is no examination in physical science here ? — No ; I mean the facts con- veyed by listening to a lecture, even if reproduced on examination, do not germinate in a boy's mind. Such things lead to nothing, and in a few years they disappear, 497. Would you say the same of a science like chemistry, supposing there were a laboratory and a certain number to be engaged in manipulations ? — 1 should say those who engaged in manipulations would be those who would pursue the science in some professional or semi-pi'ofessional way ; to such boys the instruction would be valuable. At the same time I quite agree that no highly educated gentleman should be entirely ignonnnt of any of these matters. 498. I suppose it may be presumed from the cor- respondence, when the Oxford Commissioners sug- gested tlicre should be instruction for the purpose of teaching these matters, they contemplated some sort of instruction and manipulations in the school ? — I now perceive that they did ; they also suggested that the gentlemen who came down here to teach the boys should deliver lectures to the town's people. 499. Then your opinion was, that a lecturer, on coming down once a week for 10 weeks, would be more effective for instruction than a resident Fellow ? — Yes, considering the sort of man we should have. I felt, if we proposed to a scientific man to come to Winchester on 500/, a year, with no prospect of increasing it, we should probably get a veiy inferior person to begin with, and we should have the same lectures over and over again ; it would be a very inferior aflfair altogether. I confess my feeling was greatly influenced by having a strong idea that only a second rate man would come here. 500. {Mr. Thompson.) Are you aware of the ex- tremely small stipends the first scientific men at Cambridge get, without any means of increasing them ? — But they are compensated in other things. At Cambridge a man is iu the midst of science and scientific men, and is gaining fame or world- wide reputation by what he is doing. Here a man would have no scientific society ; he would have nothing to do, and no one to talk to. If there were two or three scientific men here, they would have to talk to themselves. Coming down to this place, and having nothing to do, a man would do nothing, especially if a married man. He would have 500/. a-year with no emulation, and I know exactly the sort of stagnating science he would give us. It would be crambe repetita. He would not be keeping pace with the march of science in Cambridge or London, or any where else ; he would simply be pouring out year after year that amount of scientific knowledge which he brought here. 501. {Mr. Vanghan.) Do you think three such men living here together as was proposed, would not be enough to keep up an interest in scientific subjects ? — I confess I thought not. 502. I suppose when you say the physical sci- ences cannot be taught here, you allow lectures to be delivered, and you might have examinations upon those lectures ; — at the same time that the lectures were delivered, text books might be put into the boys' hands, and upon those lectures and those text books, they might have to answer questions upon paper ; — also might they not have to point out how the results are arrived at in experiments ? — Yes, and I have no doubt if we set on foot such a system, a number of boys would pass examinations, and do a good deal at the time, but unless they have some practical object before them, or some view of pursuing it in life, in the course of a little time, be it months or years, the whole thing will disappear. I have myself attended these gentle- men's courses of lectures pretty attentively, and could, I dare say at the time, have passed a pretty good examination ; but let three years pass, and ask me some question about the composition of strychnine, or one of those things, and I should be very liable to make a mistake between hydrogen and nitrogen, car- bon and oxygen. 503. Does not the time of life make a considerable difference in a question of this kind. Do you not think a boy or a youth has a great advantage over a man of middle age ? — I should doubt that. I think on the contrary, a boy would sooner put those things PUBLIC SCHOOLS C05IMISSI0N : — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 345 out of his mind. It seems tome there is no germi- nating, fruit-bearing prineiiile in those facts ; unless a person is going on to do something practically with them they disappear. What is the great thing to be gained froiti learning in youth ? It is that everything learned is to lead to something further ; that it is to lead to a power, i. c, to give the jiersou the jiower to do something beyond itself. To tell him the fact that such and such is the composition of strychnine, lor instance, if he is not going to do anything with strychnine during the whole of his life, can lead to BOthing. He may rememlier it for a week, as long as his memory is pretty fresh, but let a certain time pass, and he will only have the sort of recollection that ladies are apt to have of something thoy learnt at school, they know there is a good deal to be said about it, but they forget what it is. 504. Do you not think the principles of those sciences are, perhaps, more especially applicable to the objects men are pursuing in after-life than any other study you could mention — to commerce, professions, arts, even to the pursuits of a life of leisure, such as the farming of a country gentleman ? — I think when a country gentleman begins to farm, and tn farm on principles of agricultural chemistry, he had better not go upon what he learnt at school from scientific lectures. 505. I am speaking of their applicability. We cannot even in common life escape from the outwai-d G. Moherlij. world, nor deal with it and look upon it without finding WINCIIESTEK. an opportunity for the application of those principles ? —What I feel so strongly about is this, that whilst it is extremely desirable that every cultivated gen- tleman should know something of all these things as 30 May 1862. a matter of knowledge and accomplishment, yet when we are dealing with the training of boys' minds up to a certain age, with only a certain time per day or per week to be devoted to all these various matters, as I certainly think this is knowledge which does not germinate or fructify in any other direction, I do not feel, so far as my judgment goes, that any sj'stem of class instruction or school examination in these physi- cal sciences is likely to bo useful. For the moment, they will pick up a certain quantity from lectures, and I have no doubt we can produce boys who will answer very well in examination, but they will soon forget it unless they are things they are pursuing in some wa}-. For instance, last Saturday wo had a lecture, a very interesting one, on the subject of air, and at that time I learnt a good deal from it, hut I should be very sorry to be examined this Saturday upon all the matters of the lecture, or as to all the processes which have been instituted for many years for the analysis of atmospheric air. I am afraid I could not go through that, and if I could to-day, by an eifort of memory, pass such an examination, I am sure by this time next year I could not. TuE EARL OF DEVON ix the Chair. 506. Are the physical sciences not of value as a discipline of the mind ? — I hardly know what their value is. I do think it is very desirable that young people and old people should know these things, t think they are matters of accomplishment and know- ledge which every body should know something of. But as a matter of education and training of the mind, ■which is our particular duty as instructors, I do not feel the value of them. 507. Do you not think there are certain general principles, and general laws of nature which are taught in that way, and which are to be applied in the expla- nation of natural phenomena, and that to understand tliem and their action one on another, the pupils may have to go through very elaborate processes of rea- soning and memory connected together, in order to arrive rationally at a result ? — I have the greatest respect for the sciences, and wish them to be taught to everyone who is able to go into such subjects, but that cannot be the case with many at a school like this. The courses of lectures I have heard, (which I apprehend are the best of their kind), are extremely interesting. To take for instance a geological lecture : a gentle- man comes down, who gives us a lecture describing the fossils of the PaliEOzoic period, by which a person might really get pretty well up in that subject for a time. But what then ? If he is going to study it, well and good, but if he has heard such a lecture, and reproduced the facts upon examination, which is all he would be called upon to do as a matter of educa- tion, after a little while all those things will pass away. 508. I am not alluding chiefly to sciences such as geology and sciences of that large and mixed nature ; — I would rather draw your attention to sciences like chemistry, physiology, organic chemistry, electricity, heat, light, and fundamental sciences of that de- scription. Do you not think that is the necessary character of a lecture of that kind, that it compre- hends within the hour of its delivery a great number of principles which, to be thoroughly understood and mastered, still more to be applied, would require a very great many hours of reflection and obser- vation ? — If we were going to make chemists we would educate them in that way ; but we want a general education which will be introductory to other things ; things which would be of more general value, — these things give no power whatever. I think it would be a mistake if we were to bestow any very considerable portion of our time upon that amount of I. study which could be forced by lectures and exami- nations upon those things ; the facts so learnt would soon fade and go away. For what you call " princi- " pies " are but largely generalized facts, equally sure to fade away unless they are pursued in some pro- fessional or semi-professional way. 509. Do you not think there is a tendency in all knowledge learnt as a boy to fade and go away — the facts of history, for instance. If boys at school have only classical instruction, the classics they learn, I fear, will fade away from the mind ? — The difl'erence which I see between those things is, that whilst the, one fades awa}' absolutely, and leaves notiiing behind, the other gives power. All classical learning tells on a man's speech ; it tells on a man's writing ; it tells on a man's thoughts ; and though the particular facts go, they leave behind a certain residuum of power ; and pi'ecisely the one great problem educationists have to consider is how to constitute a sj'stem of education which will impart to the mind that power in the highest degree. 510. Do you not think persons who have had a philo- sophical education are sometimes peisons whose general powers of mind would lead you to believe that such an education goes beyond the knowledge of facts ; that it also leaves power and a high state of education generally? — There are many persons, who have had a philosophical education, who have gone on pursuing philosophical studies to a considerable height ; I have no doubt they are men of great capacity. Any one who has such practical views before him I should wish to cultivate those studies ; but I apprehend these sciences, the greater part of them, are not above. 70 j'ears old, and therefore the people who become cultivators in these paths are a young world. They do not inherit all the world has had of knowledge and power for thousands and thousands of years ; they are not the old world ; they are not benefiting from the experience and the accumulated wisdom of the ages that have gone before ; they are discoverers and exjierimenters in new paths. That is what Arch- bishop Whately tells us not to make a confusiou about ; he tells us, instead of the world being new in other things it is old, but in scientific knowledge the world is new. Chemistry is new within these 70 years ; geology is new within half a century ; astronomy is almost the only science which is not new. I hardly know any physical science which is not well nigh of modern discovery. 511. Do you not think the discipline the physical X X 3-tC PUBLIC SCHOOLS COMJUSSION :— MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. WINCUESTEB. sciences give, and the value of tliat discipline depend very little on the antiquity of the sciences, but on the i^'^"- exercise they give to the faculties, in the applica- G. Moberhj. ^-.j.^^ ^^ j^j^^.^. pji„gipigg^ rather than their antiquity. 30 May 1S62. For instance, to take logic, do you think the pupils . of the first logicians did not derive the same benefit from the logical discipline of their minds, as the pupils of logicians are deriving at the present mo- ment ? — I tliink with respect to physical science, there are three points of view in which you may re- gard it. First, there is the actual learning. The learning of anything is in itself agood ; while listening to a lecture on any subject of natural philosophy, you a:'e getting information. That is quite true. 512. I was speaking in particular of the difficulty ■which seemed to press on your mind as to the want of antiquity of the physical sciences. To meet that particul.ar difficulty, I was trying whether the w.int of antiquity was really an objection to such instruc- tion as an instrument of discipline ? — I was com- paring the physical sciences with other things. Clas- sical learning is the inheritance of all former ages. Combined with its allied subjects of philology, history, &c., it puts a person into the possession of the inherited wisdom of all times. The man who, possessing it, carries it forward to its due develop- ment, has gained a foundation of learning infinitely preferable, in my judgment, and applicable to a vastly greater extent, both of knowledge and cultivation of mind, than if he had bestowed the same time and attention on physical science. However, I was about to say, there is, first, a certain training in learning these things ; secondly, there are the practical appli- cations of science ; and, thirdly, .above all, if a man is pursuing a science practically and experiijien tally, so as to be making discoveries, and carrying it for- ward to greater heights of perfection than were attained before, then he is indeed exercising the highest faculties a man can have. But boys in school will not be pursuing science experimentally, they can only be taught what other people have done, they will only get such knowledge second hand. They cannot do what the leaders of the science have done, they can only be told of the results they have arrived at, without being able to test their accu- racy, or to follow them up in any practical way. 513. Admitting the inferiority, and the want of originality of the attempts of boys' minds as applied to science, do you not think the same thing applies both to grammar and to history ; do you not think the actual understanding of history on the part of a boy is something to the last degree weak, and the understanding even of grammar is something ex- tremely imperfect compared with that which the his- torian or the philologist must have had ? — Quite so. 514. Then the difficulty is one which arises with regard to all subjects which are taught ? — Yes, and I should reply, perhaps, there is the same benefit from the mere learning of the one and the other. The dis- cipline is much the same from the mere learning of grammar, history, or anything else ; but the ditterence I think is this : — a boy who has leai-ned grammar, has learned to talk and to write in all his life ; he has possessed himself for ever of an instrument of power. A m.an who has learned the laws of electricity has got the facts of the science, and when they are gone, they are gone for good and all. A boy who has learnt grammcW, though he may have forgotten the terms or technicalities of grammar, is put into posses- sion of a power which, when he writes a letter, or makes a speech, or expfesses his thoughts in any ■way, in all his life, he uses. 515. {Lord Lytteltoji.) Would 3'ou not think, with regard to any boy who has a renl turn for those things •\vhich it would be desirable to cultivate, that he would have a considerable inducement to keep up his acqviaintance with the physical science he had learnt at Winchester from the institution of the new tripos at Oxford and Cambridge ? — I should be sorry to theorize upon a matter not immediately before me. I confess I have a very strong opinion upon a point like that. I think our public school education should be of one kind. But I do think at the Universities young men are kept in the system of school instruction too much. I would have them, at least in certain cases, put very much sooner in a more mature one. 516. (Lord Devon.) As a matter of fact, -what number of boys have attended these lectures ? — We require all to attend. 517. Conmioners as well as scholars ? — Yes. I find, if it is a fine day, sometimes the numbers look rather thin behind, and I say, .at the end of the lecture, " I shall call the names over," and I find a few straggle in. We require all to attend. 518. (Mr. Thompsoti.) From the highest to the lowest ? — Yes. 519. Do you think that wise? — It does no harm in any way. 520. Do you not think it impossible that a lecturer can adajit his lectures to boys of so many diflferent ages ? Do you not think a good deal of it must be lost, i. e. if adapted to the elder boys it must go above the heads of the younger boys ? — I hardly know how to answer that. A lecturer comes down to lecture to the school as he would to an ordinary .audience, i. e. as he would lecture in one of the rooms of the town. Some of the younger boys are very intelligent. Some of the boj's who have a taste for these subjects are found .among the juniors. I do not think the senior boys are always the most intelligent or the mostr attentive. 521. {Lord LytteUo7i.) Ai-e boys often refused admission into the school from inability to join even the lowest classes ? — Not often ; but it happens oc- casionally. 522. {Lord Devon.) Question 3, " Is there any " limit to the age at which a boy may be originally " placed in .any of the lower forms, or beyond which " he can remain in any of the lower forms ?" you say " We have no such limit " ? — No. 523. {Mr. Vaughan.) Do you know what accounts for the circumstance that while the average age of the last three forms but one is nearly the same, that of the very lowest form is higher than any of those three above it ? — I do not know the fiict, but it is easy to see how such a thing might possibly happen. Some boys in a class, as I have explained before, being the sh.arpest and most forward boys, get up high ; that keeps the average age of the upper classes rather low ; the others not being such sharp boys, (some of them big boys of sixteen or seventeen,) are .apt to linger in the lower part of the school ; so that it may happen any day, that the lowest class may have a higher aver.age of age than one of the higher classes. I think our plan for promotion is not quite the same as in some other schools. We promote boys not by years ; we do not send the boys of a certain year up to our high classes ; but we put a certain number of boys np to each class as they have made their way by marks np the class ; the consequence of which is that .a sharp young boy makes his way to the top of the school rather fast. So that the average speed with which a boy rises in our school may possibly be difibrent from that of other schools. 524. {Mr. Thompson.) Would not that rather indicate that promotion is more rapid at Winchester than at other schools ? — It may be more rapid for quick boys. 525. {Lord Devon.) Question 4. "What is the " highest form in which a boy can be placed on " admission into the school ?" You say, " Wc have " no absolute rule on the subject. Practically, boys " are never placed higher than in senior part of the " fifth, and very rarely so high" ? — Yes, that is so. 526. Question 5. " Wh.at is the latest age at which " a boy may remain in the school ?" You say, " The rules of the superannuation of the scholars, " have been framed under the direction of the ordi- " nance. Every scholar is superannuated, and obliged " to leave the College on his eighteenth birthday, " unless at the previous election he has tieen ex- " amined, and has received the recommendations oi PUBUC SCHOOLS COSIMISSION : — MINUTES OV EVIDENCE. 347 " tlie electors to remain until the ensuing election. " There is no absolute rule on this point .as appli- " cable to the commoners " Upon that I should like to ask a question. We understand the Bodminster fund provides a very large sum, something like 13,600/., for the purpose of being distributed in different exhibitions to boys in the school, who have, as one qu.ilification, comparative poverty, and who have failed in obtaining New College : — that fund being so large, admitting of a considerable number of exhibitions ; perhaps you will tell us what your view is of the operation of that provision? — I think the Bedrainster fund has not yet been brought into the operation it is capable of being brought into. The Bedminster fund arises chiefly out of money in the '■funds, and we have been in the habit of receiving the annual dividends. For some years only the surplus yearly rent of the estate w.as bestowed, indeed not the whole of that, there were very few exhibitioners on the Bedminster fund, consequently there have Ijeen ac- cumulations, and we have that large sum in the funds. Now I am very anxious about tliese exhibitions. They are all, according to the institution, for College boy.', I. e., scholars who h.ave not got to New College ; and in two ■w.iys I think that operates now undesirably. First of all, since the scholars and commoners are all blended into one school, I should like that the whole school should be capable of partaking in such an advantage as this. Secondly, I should like it should not be a qualification that a boy should have failed for New College, because New College is of so much less value than it used to be, that a boy failing to get New College and getting an exhibition may possibly be better off than if he got New College. I think it would be better if all tlie school were eligilde for exhibitions, and that some of them should be won by examination, instead of being a matter of gift. I think that character should enter into it as far as desirable, but we have a large quan- tity of these exhibitions, and I should like to make them some of the prizes of the school, such as might be instituted for learning or character, or any such mixture of those things as might be desirable. 527. Would you reckon as a qualification compara- tive scantiness of means ? — Yes ; I think in my own judgment it would be going against the very intention with which we give an exhibition of this kind to give it without reference to that. 528. {Sir S. Northcote.) How would you esti- mate good conduct and pecuniary means along with attainments ? — Those things are very difficult to estimate. We have had of course in the Uni- versity of Oxford that difficulty before us constantly, ■where you are to have character, poverty and attain- ments to take into consideration. I recollect under our old statutes at Baliol we were to elect a man who had not one of those qualifications, but all three, " in " quo hfec tria cumulatius reperiantur." That shows what is cap.able of being done. 529. {Mr. Thompson.) I gather from you that you wish there should be exhibitions in the school, one or more every year, to be given by examination without any reference to New College, and that these exhibitions should be tenable after the holder leaves V/inchester College at either college at either university r — Yes ; I should like that. I had not sketched out such a splendid prospect as that. We have our Goddard scholarship in the winter at which our boys 20 or more are examined, and I should like besides the Goddard scholarship, which is 25/. a-year for four years, that we should give another exhibition at the same time .and in the s.ame way ; I think that would be a very desirable thing to be done. 530. Do you think with a scheme so fr.amed it vrould be possible to combine attention to pecuniary circumstances ? — Yes. 531. Do you not think the tendency of the ex- aminers' award would be too strong against any such recognition ? — If I were to construct a scheme it seems to me there might be such a thing as a compctiiion, and at the same time a nomination. Sev. G. Moberly. There might be such a thing as uniting those WINCHESTEE. two things together. What I should like to do is, that the examiners should not elect boys for the exhibition, but produce a list purely of the examina- tion, the boys they have ex.aniined, and the marks 30 May 1862. they have given them in the order of the list. That list should be published, .and it should rest with the Wiirden and the Fellows to give the exhibition. They might p:^ss over the three first and give it to the fourth, though he was not the best scholar, upon mixed grounds. They should take the responsibility of saying they nominate the fourth. You will perceive the principle I am now laying down is capable of a much more extensive application. It seems to me, provided a list be published with the marks obtained by the boys in competition, it is desirable that the electors should take it upon themselves to nominate out of that list with a view to other qualifications as well. The list is before the public, and the first three boys got the honour of being first, second, and third ; but the electors m.ay thhik the fourth is the best, i. c, the most deserving when character and pecuniary means are taken into the account along with the results of mere examination. It is a per- fectly possible thing to unite, .and I think it is a very desirable thing to unite the system of perfectly open competition, and the honours resulting from that, with a system of nomination. 532. Without making it likely that motives would be attributed to the Warden and the Fellows of which they are incap.able ? — As to motives, you must be pre- pared for that imputation, do what you will ; people must take their chance of that. 533. Perhaps such things never h.appen in the pre- sent day, but 50 years ago, when jobs did take place, would it have been safe, according to the stand.ard of morality at that time, to have left it to the electors to nominate any boy, however low he might be on the list ? — Yes ; if tlie list were puldished, 1 think there could be no jobbing. In my judgment, the free and full publication of the list would throw such a respon.sibility upon the electors who might h.ave to nominate a boy ■who did not come first in the list, that in all proliabilitji it would be done conscientiously, and if so, I think it would be a great improvement. But I should not say, " However low he might be on the list." It might be made necessary that he should reach a cer- tain height in it, or obtain a certain number of marks. 534. You have never seen such a system in operation ? — No ; I have never had an opportunity. 535. {Mr. Vaughan.) Practically, does that rule fixing the superannuation of scholars at 18 send them away from the school at that age ? — Yes ; they must leave the college on their 18th birthday, unless their names have been recommended as can- didates for New College at the previous election. There h.ave been about h.alf a dozen instances, within the last four or five years, where a boy who was superannuated in college, has been sent to me as a commoner. 536. Are there not at the present moment four or five scholars above 18 ? — Only such as have received a recommendation at the last election. 537. That made me .ask the question. If there are five scholars above 18 with that recommendation, does not that very much limit the practical effect of the rule ? — It limits it to some degree. I am very glad it should be so limited, for this reason : New College should supply its scholarships from this college, or the main of them. At all the other col- leges at Oxford the limit df age is either 19 or 20. According to even that limitation of our rule here, we never can get a boy who is 19 to be a candidate for New College, and therefore the selection, in point of age, is lessened ; and it is a pity. If all our boys went away at 18 from Winchester, that would be a ye.ar, and sometimes two years earlier than the candidates from other schools. 538. Do you see any objection then to the age o superannuation being 19 instead of 18? — I think it would be very undesirable that the boys in the lower X x2 348 PUBLIC SCHOOLS COMMISSION :— MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. WINCHESTER. Ji'V. G. Moberhj. 30Mav I'Gi. part of the school should be capable of staying till 19. In the first place, it is a gratuitous education, and parents would desire their boys to stay us long as they could. Consequently we should have a heap of boys, who have no chance of ever going to New- College, staying till 19. I think it is much better we should have the limit of 18, with the option of enlarg- ing it if the boys arc sufficiently high to make it desirable they should stay here. 539. Do you think it would be better to have 18 as the limitation, or 19 with the condition that they should not be below the sixth form ?— That I sliould think would be very desirable. What I should desire would be this, that every boy should be superannuated on his eighteenth birthday unless he were within a certain distance of the top. We are now put to very great inconvenience by the operation of the present rule. I am obliged to produce at the election the superannuates of the present year, and all the super- annuates of the next year also, though they are not candidates, because they must get their recommenda- tion in order to enable them to be candidates next year ; which is a pity. Moreover, if the superan- nuates of the present year are many, boys are liable to be excluded from the competition of their own year, by the large number of those above them, who will be gone by tlie time their year comes. 540. Is it not, in another point of view, a great disadvantage to the reputation of the school, that when all other schools are turning out their scholars at the age of 19 for competition at the universities, Winchester is practically obliged to turn out her scholars at 18 ?— I should be sorry to say any- thing which would tend to a general extension of the age "of boys remaining at school till 19. My own opinion is very clear upon a further point ; I consider it is a very good thing boys should stay on and receive the education of boys till 18. The ago at which young men leave the university has been in- creased at least a year since I went to Oxford. They go there now, on an average, a year later ; the three years of residence have become more nearly four on account of the multiplied examinations ; the con- sequence is that 22 or 23 is the age to which they attain at the university ; and I own I think the course of training at Oxford is too boyish for that age. I wish to terminate the boyish age for that capable of maturer studies rather sooner. 541. Would you carry that view out in respect of your own scholars where it exposed them to any disadvantage in competition with other scholars ? — I should not be the least afraid of that disadvantage. 542. {Lord Devon.) Question 7. Has the Head Master any power to modify the system and course of study, or to change from time to time tlie books or editions of books used in the school ? If not, in whom are such powers vested ? You say, " I appre- " hend that all these matters are in the control of " the Head Master. As to the books or subjects " selected for the examination for the scholarships " of New C'oUege, it is his duty to submit the list " which he proposes to the Warden of New College ?" —Ye?. 543. Questions. "Have the assistant masters any " voice, consultative or other, in the direction of the " studies of the school ?" Your answer is, " No doubt " the Head Master would alwa\s be anxious that the " opinion of the under masters in charge of classes " should have great weight in these matters. Prac- " tically, indeed, tlie under masters, under the control " and sanction of the Head Master, arrange these " things for their classes." Is there anything like a periodical assembling of the masters with the Head Master for the purpose of talking over these, or any other subjects ? — No, we have no such meetings. We are all very much together, and often talk over things relating to the school. I rather think I have left these things too much in the control of the under masters. I think it would be better if there were some more sys- tematic interference on my part. For instance, if any- body were to ask mo what are the books that are read throughout the school I could not tell him. A master will change a book sometimes without consulting me. I remember some time ago a friend of mine wrote a book, which we introduced into the school, and some time afterwards the master of that class put it out, and took another in its place, audi got into hot water witli. my friend because I allowed the master to do that. I api)rehend it is entirely in the Head Master's power to say what books shall be used. I think if I chose to say " I cannot allow that book, this is a " better one," it would be within my authority to do so. 544. {Lord Lyttelton.) Theassistant masters would have no jjower whatever ; the absolute power is in the Head Master ? — Yes. The second master is also a statutable master, and therefore he holds under the Warden and Fellows as the Head Master does. There might be a difficulty about the co-ordinate authority of those two. 545. The question has not arisen ? — No, sometimes there have lieen questions, but not of consequence. 546. (Tl/r. Vaiighan.) Practically, do you super- intend the fifth form, as well as the upper division of the si.xth form ? — Yes, the senior part of it. 547. Is any particular object aimed at in having the work of the fifth form senior division, the third form in rank, the same as that of the senior boys of the sixth form, the first form in rank. Is it not a dis- advantage that boys so different in their age and proficiency should be doing the same work ? — That is one of our old time-honoured practices, which I do not think I should institute if it were to be done anew, and which I do not wish to knock on the head. There is a practice we have here of what is called " pulpiteers," which consists of lessons in Virgil, Horace, and Homer. The practice is to assemble in the school the whole of the 80 boys under my super- intendence, the upper sixth form, the lower sixth, and the upper part of the fifth form. The prefects read out and construe, say, a hundred lines from ■ Homer. The boy stands up in that place with an audience of 80 boys before him, and reads out and construes as many lines as I think proper. I am walking up and down, and I ask whatever questions I think proper. When they have construed they go away with some other work, and tlie other boys come and do it. 548. Do you think that a good plan ? — I should not institute it anew. 549. Does not hearing a lesson construed as a means of learning it destroy the most useful part of the lesson, which consists of each boy forming his own analysis of the sentence ? — It is a practice which is not unattended with some important results. It is by no means a bad thing for the young boys to hear it done in a more masterly manner. 550. It applies to Homer, Virgil, Juvenal, Horace, and Greek Testament ? — Yes. 551. That is a considerable list of authors ? — Greek Testament it does not apply to exactly. The Greek Testament is a lesson for the seniors only. The lower ones listen to it, and are liable to be asked questions. 552. It has been preserved, you tell us, as a prac- tice you have not liked to interfere with, though not actually approving of it ? — Yes ; it is one of those thinijs which I should not set on foot anew, but which I do not like to do away with.* 553. {Lord Devon.) Question 9 is as to the sys- tem by which boys rise in the school ? — Here I should like to introduce this paper which shows the mode by which boys rise in the school. {Dr. Moherly pro- . ceeded to explain the weeldi/ marking of the " clas- " sicits paper" shoicing how the boys rise in their classes by an aggregate of marks for classics, com- positions, mathematics, and modern languages.) 554. {3Ir. Vaughan.) Does each master keep a * This practice has been in great measure done away during the present autumn. — G. M. PUBLIC SCHOOLS COMMISSION: — MINUTES OP EVIDENOF. 349 .paper in the same form as that now exhibited ? — Yes ; except the first. 533. Is that the sole guide of the master of each form ill the promotions ? — Yes, ahiiost absolutely. 5oG, {Lord Devon.) The position of the boys at the beginning of each week, is regulated according to the marks of the previous one ? — Yes ; the position of the boy upon the aggregate of marks. Therefore into that system of marks enter not merely classics but mathematics, compositions, and modern languages. 557. Does modern history enter into that at all ? — No; we do not profess to teach modern history at all. It is my own habit, very mnch, in having a class before me for some time, to take every opportunity of getting in all sorts of things that occur to me. For instance, if it is a question of a place mentioned in the lesson, I ask all that relates to it. 558. Modern language marks do not enter into that ? — Yes ; the last of those are French and German. 559. (Mr. Vaitghati.) It is not the habit, I think, at Winchester, to teach modern or ancient history by set lessons ? — No ; I should not know how to do it. All I can do is to say, " We will examine in such " a period at such an examination." 560. {Mr. Thompson.) Is not that sufficient ? — I think it is. 561. {Mr. Vaughan.^ Do you expect, them to learn portions of history, and examine them in it? — Yes, in some examiuations. For instance, in those I have instituted at the beginning of the half year we have a certain quantity of English history. Then in the Goddard examination we have a considerable amount of English history. In classical history wc have not any regular examinations. 562. As regular form work, there are not exami- nations in particular portions of history ? — No. 563. Is there .anything in the circumstances of Winchester which would make that more difficult than in other schools ? — No. There is this : the men ■who arc teaching it in other schools arc men who have been bred to it. A man can teach those things best in which he has been bred. 564. Is it not the fact that history is more pur- sued at O.xford, with which Winchester is chiefly connected, than at other universities. And would you not say a first-class man at Oxford would generally be very well acquainted with ancient history ? — Yes, to a certain degree. I wish we could teach more liistory. It is a subject which has become more the fashion of late. We have now got the Historical Essay prize, founded by Mr. Duncan ; it is 31. a year ; and the boys take a good deal of pains about that. 565. {Lord I^yttelton.) " The mathematical marks " amount to about a fourth, and the modern language " marks to about an eighth of the weekly total." Are you satisfied with that proportion ?— It is difficult to say. The modern language masters, I think, mark very highly ; for the masters are foreigners, and difi'erent from Englishmen. If the French masters marks are very high, there is such a disposition on the part of the German master to make his marks as high. The boys may also try to take liberties with them. Therefore I have been obliged to sa}', "Mark " as you will, but not more than 25 a week." 566. {Mr. Thompson.) Are the French masters attached to the College in the same w.'iy as the others ? — They are only teachers. One lives at Winchester, and gives lessons in the town ; the other lives at Southampton, and comes over. 567. {Mr. Vdughan.) Does the number of marks you allow them to give bear any fixed proportion to the number of lessons in the week ; can one French lesson produce as much in the way of marks as a classical lesson ? — No, the classical lesson is marked in another way. If there are 30 boys in the class, the senior boy gets 30 marks. The other is according to how the boy has done. 568. {Lord Devon.) Question 10. " What provi- " sion is made for the teaching of each of these " subjects, French, German, or mathematics, and " for promoting the study of them ; can you fur- Itcv. G. Muberhj. 30 May 18C2. " nish any information, showing to what extent WINCHESTER. " they are severally studied, and with what success ? " Which of them do, and which do not form a " necessary )iart of the regular course of study ? " The answer is, " We have two masters in mathe- " matics and arithmetic, with a writing master ; wc " have one French master, and are about to engage " a second, and one German master. All the boys " learn arithmetic and mathematics, and all who are " not in the German cl.asses learn French ? — Yes. 569. {Lord Lyttelton.) Has it ever occurred to you to be much more desirable for boys to learn one of those languages than the other ; practically you leave it entirely optional ? — Not optional to the boy, but to his friends. 570. Does it occur to you that the knowledge of .French is more important than German ? — Quite so ; but what I should like is that every boy should learn French, and that he should become a tolerably good French scholar before learning German, and that the seniors should all learn German. 571. That is not so now ?. — No, the amount of all learning in these things is very small. The German boys learn more than the French do. 572. {Lord Devon.) Practically what proportion learn French and what proportion German ? — About 40 learn German. 573. {L^ord Lyttelton.) They learn no French ? — No, I cannot let a boy learn both at the same time. 574. {Mr. Vdiiglian.) They may have learnt French? — Yes, if they have been at the school a sufficient tmie. 575. {Mr. Thompson.) There is probably a special reason why they learn German ? — Probably. 576. vShould not you say if a scholar intended to go to College, German would be the more important of the two ? — Perhaps so. 577. {Lord Devon.) Question 11. I do not know whether you wish to add anything with reference to the French cLass ? — No, I do not know of anything. 578. {Mr. Thompson.) May I ask in what class a boy first begins French ? — The whole school learn French. 579. As soon as they come ? — Yes. 580. Have you any opinion of the possibility or desirability of deferring the teaching of Greek to a later age than that at which it is taught in schools. You will probably agree with me that forty or fifty years ago a boy must have made greater progress in Latin before he began Greek ? — Yes, forty or fifty years ago there were very few Greek scholars. We do not take very little boys, our boys never come till after ten, and commoners very rarely till eleven or past. 581. Supposing that schoolmasters generally were agreed to teach Greek a little later, would not that give more room for the attainment of French or Ger- man ? — You see in a school like this, French stjinds always under this apparent disadvantage, that if it is to be taught with reference to the real pronunciation of the language, you must have native teachers, and the exceeding difficulty of getting Frenchmen who can work as English masters do in the teaching of French, is practically one of the very gravest kind. 582. You could not get them unless you engaged them specially for the use of the College ? — They are .apijointed by the College. With a Frenchman, from his nationality in manner and language, the difficulty is insuperable. I think our French master is an extremely good one. He is an old officer, a gentleman, a man of cultivated mind, and he does his work extremely well. But if I get as master a young man from Oxford, he has much more weight with the boys, and keeps them in better order. 583. {Lord Lylielton.) Have the French masters the same power of discipline as the other masters ? — No ; they cannot do anything themselves, all they can do is to appeal to me. If the French master sends me a note and complains of a boy I treat it as a serious matter, because I know if I did not, it; Xx 3 350 PUBLIC SCHOOLS COMMISSION '.— MINUTES OF EVIDENCR G. Moherhj. 30 May 18C2. WINCHESTEE. would be a mucli more soiious matter. The French master must be supported by me. 584. Out of school he has nothing to do with the boys ? — No ; he merely comes down to give his lessons. 58o. {Lord Devon.) Is it the practice for any other of the masters to be present at the delivery of the lectures ? — No. When I first came here I took a leaf out of Dr. Arnold's book, and gave the French lessons to one or two classes ; I gave it up because it was too laliorious, and I considered whether it would be a good thing to get the other masters to teach French. But the difficulty was they did not know French themselves sufficiently well. The diffi- culty is to get a man who is good on other subjects, who knows the language sufficiently to teach it. 586. {Mr. Thompson.) Can you conceive if any outward motive were given to the boys, such as instituting examinations before going to the uni- versities in French grammar, it would have any influence ? — Certainly. 587. And probably the reason you cannot get them to attend to the French lessons is that they liave no such stimulus ? — Yes ; it may be so. 588. {Mr. Vaugha7i.) Do you happen to know whether at the universities of Oxford and Cambridge at present there are scholarships for modern lan- guages ? — There are at Oxford. 589. {Lord Lyttelton.) Are there prizes in the school for French ? — There are none directly for French. 590. I do not understand the first clause : " I at- " tribute the eompai-ative inefficiency of the French " classes to several causes. 1. the fact that all the " residue of the school, including those who are " more dull and idle, are in the French classes." What do you mean l>y the residue of the school ? — Except those who volunteer to leani Gemian. 591. {Mr. Vaugltaii.) Supposing it were required that every under master should be a French scholar, do you think you would have any difficulty in pro- curing men ? — Yes, very great. My impression is you would have a great difficulty. 592. Supposing your masterships were sufficiently good in a pecuniary point of view, and that was in- sisted upon as ii requisite, do you not think in course of time there would be sufficient inducement for any nian who wished to be a master to make himself a perfectly good French scholar ? — Perhaps so ; in course of time. 593. Would you lose materially in any other direction ? — In course of time it might come to pass. But you would have to narrow your range of selec- tion. You might have to put aside a flrst-rate classical scholar or mathematical scholar, for the sake of a first-rate French scholar. 594. {Sir S. Korthcote.) Do you think by a coml>ination of some such measures as these — putting your French master, being a Frenchman, upon the regular statf of the school, and giving him equal authority ; secondly, making it essential that the boys should have attained a certain amount of proficiency in French before they could rise in certain classes ; and, thirdly, establishing scholarships or prizes in the school for French ; yon could very materially increase the authority of the French teacher in the school ? I think the third of your suggestions would bo a very practical one — offering prizes. I think if you made it necessary a boy should have a certain amount of French before he was put up, you would hamper yourself ; for I think a boy who ought to have rank .ind is kept down by that which is not one of your chief points, would be in a false position. I think you ought not to do that, except by making it neces- sary to get a certain number of marks for French, which ought not to be too high. 595. At all events you might make the marks sufficiently valuable to make his place depend to a considerable extent on his proficiency in French ? . You would find by the list of marks I showed you just sow, that practically the boys who are trying to get to the top are also trying to get the best marks they can for French. 596. Do you not think it is desirable yon should give some stimulus, not only to boys trying to get places at the top, bnt to the great mass of the school? It would be difficult to do that so that they should all feel it. A boy in a lower class is cap.able of appreciating his position. He may s.ay, " I have no " chance of getting a prize, but I am a sufficiently " good scholar to steer cle.ar of punishment, and that " is all I care about ;" and so long as he does not incur punishment he will not trouble himself about getting prizes. I do not see how you can get any stimulus to tell on a boy under those circumstances. 597. According to your system a boy might give np the chance of rising, and content himself with a lower class ? — If he is complained of he will probably be punished. 598. But by just keeping himself clear of punish- ment, absolutely ceasing to exert himself .'»t aW, he may remain very comfortably in a lower class than the actual class to which he may have abilities to get up ? — The thing is possible, but if they rise in that way and get into the upper classes, only consider the quantity of inert matter you would have in the upper classes. If a Ixiy gets tip into the upper classes with that chai-acter he will be the same to the end. He would only be a clog upon the others. If a boy is unfit for a low class he would a fortiori be unfit foi' a higher. 599. Supposing the system was that a boy was required to get up at a certain minim?i'm rate, and at the same time was not allowed to rise at that rate unless he attained a certain ntiiiimttm standard, and if he did not do so was required to leave the school, would not that obviate the danger of an inert mass at the top of the school ? — I think that would be a very east-iron system, if j'ou required in every boy a certain amount of attainment or else you sent him away. 600. Are you not aware that that is practically the system at Eton ? — I do not know it. SureEy there must be boys at Eton who are not doing anything, and are not sent away ? 601. {Lord Lyttelton.) Would you not attach the greatest importance to boys arriving at school better prepared in French than they are ? — Very gi-eat. 602. Do they practise a good deal in writing French ? — I cannot tell you precisely what they do. They have to be examined when they come at the beginning of the half-year. The work of the French class consists of three things, — translating French into English, translating English into French, and answering grammatical questions. 603. {Sir S. Northcote.) Would you think it desirable that the French master should have a regular status in the school ? — He has that, as far as we can manage it. I think the French master, if he saw anything wrong, should have the same power as the others. None of our masters have the power to do more than give an imposition. The French master is able to give an imposition. 604. Does he ever do it ? — Yes, he orders an exercise to be written over five times, and so on. I think the difficulty is not because he has not a status in the school. For instance, he orders a boy to stand up, and if not obeyed he orders the official boy to bring him to me. 605. {Lord Devon.) Do the boys cap him ? — • I really do not know ; I should think they do. 606. In answers 12 and 13 you state that peri- odical examinations take place for the scholarships and prizes, to which you propose to add a half yearly examination in all the classes before the sixth. That is the examination you allude to in your pamphlet? — Yes. 607. I understand you to have established, in addition to the prizes which are referred to in these answers, prizes for each of the five divisions of the school below the sixth form, and that those are to be contested for in the first week of every half year ? — Yes. 608. Is every boy in those classes examined ? — Yes, PUBLFC SCHOOLS COMMISSION :— MINUTES OF EVIDENCE, 351 609. And cxainiiiers, I believe, come for each class from the university ? — No, that I cannot manage ; tliat is impracticable, I tliink I must do what they do at Rugby, j'.e., become, with tlie assistance of my under masters, the examiner of my own school, 610. You conduct the examination wholly upon paper, with the exception, perhaps, of B'rench ? — We must do that wholly on paper, with the exception of reading aloud. 611. Am I correct in supposing you have six papers for each class ? — We have five ; we shall have six, I suppose. 612. In page 55 of this pamphlet you say, " I " should like to have six papers for each class ; the " first, in the Greek books read in the school in the " previous half year ; the second, in the Latin ones ; " the third, in French and grammar for the boys " who respectively learn these languages, containing " passages for translation into and from these lau- " guages, and grammatical questions ; the fourth, in " a set portion of English history ; the fifth, in a set " portion of geography ; and the sixth, in a set " portion of the history of the Old Testament ? " — That Old Testament paper we did not institute last term, and I do not think we shall be able to do so, because the number of papers is too great for the number of boys. I do not think we shall go beyond the other five papers. 613. With regard to that examination, what is your system of marks ; you propose that marks shall be given, you say ? — I do not know that I can suggest any definite system. For instance, in February last I put the senior part of the fifth form under the care of my newly-appointed tutor from Oxford, and I took the next two classes myself. I read all the papers, and marked them as 1 thought proper. I had no veiy definite system. I marked them as I valued the different subjects, and then announced the result. The boys were very much interested in the examination, and in knowing how they had all done. I thought they had done very well, and told them so. I also told them it was an experimental thing, and that anollier time I should have to find an efiectual mode of punishing those who did not do well. 614. I apprehend that your object, in instituting that examination, is to provide for the cultivation of certain collateral branches, without interfering with the ordinary system of the school ? — Yes ; and also to stimulate exertion during the holidays. 615. How many examinations have you had under that system ? — Only one. 616. Were you satisfied with that ? — Satisfied with it as a beginning, not satisfied with it if that was all we are to get. 617. (Lord Lyttellon .') Is the Goddard scholarship limited to the upper part of the sixth form ? — It rests with me. There is this diflerence between this school and others that have a larger number of boys, that aU our best scholars get to the top. If we had several hundred boys, we must let boys compete for the university scholarships lower down ; with us they do not go in, for the boys who are the best scholars all go to the top. If any boy from the lower part of the school were to compete, it would be ridiculous, 618. How many competed last term ? — Twenty. I do not wish to have more than 20 at the scholar- ship examinations. 619. That is of the sixth form ? — Yes ; the upper part of the sixth form. There are about 20 under me, and 20 under my tutor. 620. (Mr. Thompson.) Are the scholarships tenable at either university ? — Yes. 621. (Lord Lyttelton.') Does English history form an important part of the examination ? — Yes. 622. If they fail in English history, they cannot get the scholarship ? — I do not think there is any rule of that kind, that a boy cannot get it ; but if he loses a certain number of marks by failing in English history ho will not get it. if CO. G. Moberhj. 30 May 1862. 623. There is an examination ? — Yes ; and a very WINCIIEBTER. serious examination it is. 624. (Mr. Vaughan.) There are prizes given for Latin or English verse, and Latin or English prose. How is it determined which of the languages in each case shall have the prize ? —We have medals from the Queen every year, two gold medals for compositions in Latin verso and English prose, or for English Verse and Latin prose, and two silver medals for elo- cution in Latin and English. In each year the Warden aiad Fellows give prizes for the two sorts of composition which in that year are not rewarded by gold medals. 625. (I^ord Devon.) Question 14. " Is it com- " pulsory, formally or practically, on every boy to " have, in addition to the master attached to his " form or class, a tutor or tutors (whether called a " private tutor or not), or is it usual, without being " compulsory, or permitted (in any and what cases) " without being usual?" The answer is, "Every " boy below the sixth book is under the charge of a " tutor in respect of his composition." That is the composition which is afterwards to be shown up to the master of the form ? — Yes. 626. Is the supervision of every boy below the sixth book by the tutor in respect to his composition applicable to that work which is subsequently shown up to his form master ? — Yes. 627. Has not that a tendency to prevent the form master from judging of the natural capacity and the proficiency of the boy himself ? — It has the efl'ect of putting his composition, the whole of that part of his training, more into the hands of the tutor than into the hands of the form master, certainly. In point of fact the tutor is the person who is his master in composition ; he first coi-rects it, makes the requisite alterations, and then sends it up. 628. In what shape does the exercise which has been supervised by the tutor come before the master ? The observations of the tutor, I suppose, are in the margin ? — No, in my own class, Mr. Willes is the tutor of the scholars, and my tutors are the tutors of the commoners. I very rarely read those compo- sitions. On a. Friday forenoon they send me in the whole mass of the tasks for the week, every one with their own mark upon it, and a paper containing a list of the marks, which have all a certain value ; a bene so many marks, and so forth. Any that are marked as very bad or very good, I always look at, not the others ; for the tutor has received the first copy of such, has made the requisite corrections, has sent it back to the boy, and got it again in a corrected shape, in order to be sent to me. 629. Then the form master does not ordinarily see the uncorrected eflx)rts of the boys ? — No ; except myself. I see the uncorrected efll)rts of the boys in the upper sixth ; but I am the only master who does ; all the other compositions are laid before the form master after they have gone through the hands of a tutor and been corrected by him. 630. (Mr. Vaughan.) What do you think is gained by that arrangement under which the composition is transferred from the supervision of the form master to a tutor ? — It is not a transferring in our case, because the other never was our practice. The practice is a very good one I think. The tutor is constantly at it, has got the matter very much at his fingers' ends, and the form master has a great deal more to do respecting lessons. 631. At Winchester school the master of the form is not also tutor to other boys in composition? — Not in composition. 632. (Lord Lyttelton.) The exercise is only looked over by one master ? — Only on6, unless the form master wishes to look at it. 633. Practically, he does not look at it ? — I do not often, except of the boys in the upper sixth. 634. As to the sixth book, the reason the boys in the sixth book show up their exercises uncorrected to their form master is because they are better able to do them? — Yes. andl want toknowwhat they can doalone. Xx4 352 PUBLIC SCHOOLS COMMISSION :— MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. WIXCHESTEE. Jiev. CI. Muberhj. 30 May 1862. G35. {Mr. Vaughan.) Is it one of tlie advantages of the present system by which compositions are looked over in tliat way, that it enables you to appoint over the compositions a person who has peculiar cpialifica- tions for it ? — Yes ; that is an obvious advantage. G36. {Lord Lytteltmi.) You say eveiy boy is under the charge of a tutor ; how is the tutor assigned ? — There is only one for the college boys ; the com- moners have two, Mr. Harrison and Mr. Dickius. If I had any reason for it, I should desire a boy to be under one rather than the other. 637. (Lord Devon.) You have stated the system you propose with respect to private tutors, in how many cases have you private tutors at present ? — I sJiould suppose that Mr. Griffith has probably seven or eight boys, I should suppose Mr. Du Boulay has nbout the same number perhaps, and I think Mr. Hawkins, who is our mathematical private tutor, has four or five. 638. Is it within your knowledge that in the case of Eton, the pvivate tutors for the collegers are paid by the foundation ? — I do not know how that is. 639. Supposiug such a system were introduced here, should you think it not only consistent with the •words of the charter by which this foundation was established, but as tending to carry out its spirit ? — Of course, if the foundation paid the private tutors, they would do them a very great kindness. The question of payment is one I cannot very much enter into, but as to the advantage of having private tutors, I have a very strong opinion upon that point, though I am sorry to say, it is not sympathised in by all my brethren, the other Head Masters. I found some of them, particularly Dr. Kennedy, very strongly against it. 640. {Sir S. Northcote.) If you could introduce the system of private tutors and make it general, would _y8u propose to alter the system of boy tutors ? — No. I should never wish to introduce the system of private tutors lower down in the school. While I am so very anxious to introduce private tutors I do not wish to introduce them lower down in the school I should lUie the upper boys to have private tutors, the lower boys to be under boy tutors. I have a great respect for that system of boy tutors for the reasons I have stated. 641. But would you suI>stit«to a private tutor for a boy tutor in any cases ? — No ; I think not. If it were instituted I should like boy tutors to superintend all the boys below the sixth form, all in the sixth form to have private tutors. 642. And you would still keep up the payment of the boy tutors 'i — I hardly know what to say about that ; it is not amiss, I think, that those boys should have the command of a little money ; it makes them much more like men when they go to the university if they liave had 20/. or 30/. to take cave of. 643. With regard to the question of expense, it would facilitate the matter, would it not, if the pay- ment of the boy tutor were done away with, and the private tutor were added ? — At present the payment to the boy tutor is only by the boys in the lower part of the school, the upper boys therefore have not that charge. 644. But your idea of a private tutor is, that he should simply be a private tutor for classical school- work, or would you wish to establish between the private tutor and the boy the relation of friend and pupil ? — I have a very strong feeling about that. My idea is, that a boy's tutor ought to be like his elder brother. A young man usually comes from the uni- versity an fait -At all things the university is teaching, so that he knows how to improve a boy's weak ])oints and to bring him up to the mark he wants to be brought up to, to fight the same battle with the scholars who come from other schools. 645. Would you make him his director in his studies ? — Yes. 646. And a friend to whom he would apply in like his elder brother, capable of difficulties ? — Yes living him instruction. 647. Do you not think a tutor having that rela- tion, would be more useful to boys in the lower part of the school than a boy tutor would be ? — ^I hardly know what to say to that. I think it is an extremely good thing for a boy tutor to have a private pupil. If a boy who is 17 years old has three or four pupils, and they bring him up a Latin " Vulgus," and he sees there is a false quantity, it does him good tomarkand i-equire those things to be changed. 648. According to the state of the school, nt least it is possible for a boy of 16 to have as a pupil a boy as old as himself ? — It is possible for a boy of 15 to have as a pupil a boy of 17. 649. Do you think that is clesiraWe ? — It is not desirable if yau put it in the abstract, bat it does not •work undesirably. 650. Do you not think the older boys low down in the school would be more influenced by private tutors than by boys who are younger than themselves ?— In the College we do not now get those stupid boys low down. There are no such boys now elected to College. The open competition system has brought us such a bright set of boys ujwn the whole that we have not those stupid heavy boys low down. 651. {I^ord I^yttdton.) Is that boy-tutor system immemorial ? — Yes ; it arose out of William of Wykeham's statutes. 652. " The private tutor's duty is to give at least " two hours' instruction to each pupil in the week." That is the minimum ? — Yes. 653. Do you consider that minimum too low? AVould you wish it to be exceeded ? — No, I do not know that I should. AVe employ them a good deal in the school work ; tliis is off the sch€>o} work. I should not like the time to be longer ; a boy has a great many other things to do ; two or three hours is as much as I should desire. 654. Do you know bow many hours they do work? — I think, about three. 655. {Mr. Vaughan.') Part of the duty of a private tutor, as you have established it, is in respect of com- position ; is that composition different from the com- position given up in the school ? — Yes. 656. The arraugemeDt does not withdraw anything from you ? — No. 657. {Lord Devon.) 16. " Is the number of boys '• under the charge or teaching of each master or " tutor limited, and if so, how and what is the limit ? " What is the avei'age number of boys under each " master or tutor ?" The answer is " Except the " upper portion of the sixth book, which (except ia " mathematics) is wholly taught by the Head Master, " all the otherclasses are under moremasters and tutors " than one." What is the fact as to the limitation or supposed limitation of the number of boys under the charge or teaching of each master or tutor ? — There is no authorized limitation. Our school has been swelling in numbers lately, and if it goes on swelling to the same extent next year, we may think it neces- sary to apjx)int another master. I have, during the last half year, introduced a fourth master ; I have also subdivided the classes. Until Mr. Du Boulay came Mr. Wickham, the second master, had in two classes not less than 80 boys, and it was a great deal too many. The effect of bringing a fourth master into the school is, that Mr. Wickham has now got only between 40 and 50 ; the next master, my own nephew, has got about 40 ; Mr. Du Boulay has got about 40 ; each in two divisions. Each master has now two classes to teach, the classes varying from about 20 to 25. 658. Is that still a larger number than you would think desirable to have under the charge of those three masters ? — No, I think not, for my own part, if it is a matter of teaching, and not of composition, for composition is the great difficulty in relation to the quantity of work. If it is a mere matter of class, I do not much care what is the number of boys in a class. I should not like it to be beyond 40. I think, with 40 boys, if you keep them perfectly alive the whole time by questioning here and there, the 40 PtTEIJC SCHOOLS COMMISSION : — MIXL'TES OF EVIDENCE. 85S nwy be as easily dealt with and kejit as much alive as 10 would be. 659. {Lord Lyttelton.) Are there any cases in which some part of the classical work is commuted for mathematical or other work ? — I have one or two boys at the present moment in whose case such a' commutation is made. If a boy comes to mo and says, " !BIy father wants to know whether " instead of doing Latin verses I m.ay not do ma- " them.itics ?" 1 .say " It is not a thing I generally " allow ; but is Mr. Walford or Mr. Hawkins " reading with you in that subject ?" "Yes, I h.ave " Mr. Hawkins as a private tutor." "Then give " my compliments to Mr. Hawkins, and say, if he " will send me every week a return of such a quan- " tity of extra work in mathematics as will be equi- " valent to the classical task, I will accept tliat " instead." I have done that in a few cases. I do not wish to institute it as a system, but to leave it dis- cretional, so as to be possible in cases where it is expedient, 660. {Sir S. Xorthcole.) Have you ever had an idea of an army class in the school ? a class of boys particularly trained for the army ? — I have thought of it ; but the truth is the school is not large enough for that. If it were lai'ge enough to have depart- ments, I should be very glad to do so. 661. It has not been tried here ? — Nc. 662. {Lord Devon.) Question 19. "Do you con- " ceive that the instruction given by the master in " the course of the ordinary work would be sufficient, " without supplementary aid, to prepare a boy of " good ability for a successful career at the univer- " sities, or for success in the competitive examin.a- " tions established in connexion with the civil, " military, or East India services ? If not, would it, " in your opinion, be possible so to improve the ordi- " nary teaching as to make it sufficient for these pur- " poses ?" The answer is, "I conceive that if a boy " of good ability used to the full extent the opportu- " nities of learning which are otfered to him at Win- " Chester, he would be well prepared in the subjects " here taught." Looking iirst to the Civil Service exa- minations, do you thfnk, assuming that certain subjects of examination are introduced by those Commission- ers which are not taught here, it v,ould be practicable so far to extend the system here as to do more for a preparation for that examination ? — I hardly know how to answer that without some more definite sug- gestion as to what things are to be introduced. I think it would be very impracticable to introduce many, or possibly, any new things ; I mean in any extensive manner ; moreover, our school is too small to have departments, and therefore I am afraid my own opinion would be that all things of that sort must be done exceptionally : that is to say, if there be a boy in the school who is destined for this or that line for which a particular preparation is requisite, I should h.ave no objection, if neither of the masters is capable of teaching all the subjects, to allow him to be a private pupil of a teacher in the town. I would give any facility I could ; but I should not institute a department in the school, or anything of that kind. It must be an exceptional case I apprehend. 663. Would you apply that to the ease ot the mili- tary and East India services as well as the Civil Service examinations ? — We have h.ad boys who have gone to those examinations, who have done as well as their neighbours, some better. Some have gone to Sandhurst ; some for Government offices ; and one or two for the East India Civil Service. 664. {Lord I^yttelton.) Going direct from here to the examinations ? — Not to the East India exami- nations. At this moment I only remember one, he is the only candidate we ha\e ever had. Our boys do not go so much to those lines. The boys we have here are not quite of the same sort as the boys who go to Eton and Harrow, those are often boys drawn from a somewhat diflerent class of society, who have more varied views in life. The boys here are sons of the clerg}', a large proportion, and 1. Rev. G. Moberli/. 30 May 1 863. professional men ; not local professional men, but WINCHESTEE. professional mcu at a distance. Some few are the sous of country gentlemen, but not so many. A cer- tain class of our boys therefore is hardly of the same rank as some who go to Eton or Harrow. The line in life they have before them is not so varied as it is with the \tojs in those schools. A certain proportion intend to go to the University ; some of them become pro- fessional men, I mean solicitors, surgeons, &c. A certain number go to the bar, and many become clcrgj'men. A few go to the array, or the navy, or other professions, but we h.ave not any great num- ber going into those lines of life. I think we should go past our peculiarity, if we laid ourselves out tor other purposes. 665. {3Ir. Thompson.) Independently of your own objections, do you think there w"0uld be a strong ob- jection on the p.art of what we may call the old Wykehamists to the institution of any snch depart- ment in the school ? — No, I do not think there would be any objection on their parts p.articularly. It would be according to their views ; some would be in fiivor of it, some against it. We are all rather a narrow circle in some respects ; we are all wedded to our old ways. 666. You say the school is too small to be divided into dep.artmeuts ; what do you think is the minimum number that would admit of that ? — I was speaking of this school with reference to Eton. Talking to ono of the Fellows of Eton, I came to this conclusion, — if this were a school like Eton in point of numbers, it would be desirable to have distinct departments ; that is that a boy might go through the lower part of the school and then go into that distinct training. But that is not practicable here ; we have ono system of training and one system of promotion, going through the whole of the school. 667. Would such a system lie recommended to you by considerations of this kind: — doj-ou not think that after a certain age, pretty gcucralh", a considerable number of boys begin to flag in the interest they take in Greek and Latin ? — I do not think I ever knew such a case, as a boy flagging in the interest he was taking in his work, while he was going on. I find a good many boys who never take any interest at all, but it cannot be said they flag in interest, because it never began at all. I never he.ard of a boy who took a less in- terest as he got higher and higher. 668. You do not find that critical subtleties .are frequently lost upon very sensible boys, who up to the time at which such subtleties are brought to their notice have done fairly well ? — No, I have never known of such a thiug as t'hat. My impression of the state of things in this school, as far as I under- stand it, is this : — We do not allow anything like boys who are allowed not to do well. We do not recognize such a thing as a boy who is permitted to flag ia his work. They do not do so well as they ought, sometimes, no doubt; but if a boy is not doing his work well, he will have a great chance of being punished. Therefore, though there is not so much work as there should be in some cases, there is no such thing as a boy who is not doing anything ; and as they get up in the school they t.ake more interest in these m.atters. I should say, of course, the lower boys are not such scholars as to take any particular interest in the clas- sical matters they .are reading ; but many of the seniors are all alive to the interest and beauty of the work they are doing. 669. Most of them being in College ? — Yes ; out of my 30 boys probably 50 will be scholars. 670. Youdo not think any considerable porticrx of the residue would have their minds stimu- lated by these pursuits ?^No ; my impression is, that, speaking generally, a boy who is idle in one intellectual pursuit would be idle in any pursuit. An idle boy is a boy who loves cricket, and so on. Here and there a boy may fail in classics who will make something of another subject ; but upon the whole a ■ boy who is idle in classics is idle in mathematics, and a boy who is idle in classics and Yy S5i PUBLIC SCHOOLS COilMISSION : — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. Itev. G. MoUrly. 30 May 18C2. 'vVlNCiiKSTEn. mathematics never gets good marks in French. It is inherent in the boy, I think. 671. {Lord Lyttelton.) You say a boy who has once had an interest in classics will not lose that interest. Do you ever find this, that a boy has .arrived at his maximum .as far as .attainment in Latin and Greek goes, so that in the following years he makes no progress ? — I think not. I think where that happens it 1° not because of the Greek and L.atin, but because there are boys who at an early .age are somewhat precocious, and when they come to be comparatively old they turn out not to be of the same calibre and force of mind they promised to be. It is a very common case tliat a boy who does extremely well and promises extremely well when young goes oil' ; but th.at is not the fault of the subject he is learning, but from his turning out to be a boy rather of quick- ness than of real .ability. 672. The system which is sometimes called bifurcation, or allowing boys after a certain time to branch off into another department, you would consider a question rather of the size of the school than .any other consideration? — I think so. You must remember we have another set of people to de.al with, besides those who are amateurs or experimenters in education, and that is the parents of our boys. Of course when a parent sends his boy to this school he is content to allow him to go through the course we take him through. 673. 19. This answer s.ays "I conceive that if " a boy of good ability used to the full extent the " opportunities which are offered to him at Wiuches- " ter, he would be well prepared in the subjects here " taught for such a successful career." The question applying not only to the universities but to the civil, military, and East India services, is it your opinion that a boy would have much chance, after having been bred up here onl}', in competing at those com- petitive e.\.aminations, with boj-s who have been trained specially for them ? — Certainly not ; but I fancy the age at which they .are admissible would hardly contemplate boys who are going direct from school. It runs to twenty-two years old ; so that it contemplates older candidates. What I mean is this: — supposing we were to institute a special dejiart- ment and examination to fit boys for the civil service competition, another for the military competition, and so on, what would become of us ? We should lose ourselves in a multitude of smiill things, and teach nothing. I think it is extremely important in a school of this size that the system should be uni- form, the exceptions being only exceptions, and not systematically introduced. 674. {Mr. Vcniff/ian.) Does it strike you it would be impossible to frame a system by which boys should be promoted in the school apart from their proficiency in any one department of knowledge ? — Do you mean apart from their classical marks ? 675. That the general arrangement of the school should be distinct from their classical work, their ntathematical work, their historical work, but depend- ing on the aggregate of marks ? — That is what we do now. In the .arrangement of the school you have the aggregate of marks as made up of classical lessons, mathematical lessons, French lessons, and so on. 676. Could you not frame a scheme by which it would be possible for a boy to be in a low classical form, mathematical form, or history form, and yet by the aggregate of his marks to be in a high form in the general arrangements. As I understand the arrange- ment of the school, as it is now, a boy's rank in the school depends really ou his classical proficiency ? — Maiidy. 677. Would it not be possible to frame a scheme by which his rank in the school would not depend ou his classical proficiency, or his mathematical pro- liciency, or his French proficiency, but upon the .aggregate of his marks, however obtained ? — I have expressed my oi)inion upon that very gtrongly in this little book. My feelmg is very clear about that. I think it is absolutely necessary there should be one leading subject, proficiency in which should be our main prin- ciple of classification ; but that it should be open to other subjects to come in and swell the marks, so that a boy who reaches the top of his class must do well not only in that leading subject but in others. 678. I suppose that answer of yours rests upon the desirabilit}- you feel of giving the ascendancy to one subject, such as classics ; but admitting the ex- pediency of that, would it not be a practicable arrangement to make the classification of the school entirely independent of any one single subject, but deijending on the proficiency of the boys in the aggregate ? — Do I understand you rightly all those subjects should be regarded as equal ? 679. I do not say that ; I do not wish to affirm there should be equality ; but without s.aying what should be the precise rehative value of these subjects to each other, still a boy's rise in the school might be entirely independent of his proficiency in any one ? — I think it would be utterly impracticable unless there were a leading subject. AVith a leading subject I would give a very full scope. If there were not a leading subject, and you were to take the aggregate of marks, I think you would get boys together in a class who would be glaringly unequal in abilities and attain- ments. 680. In each of these departments they would be doing their work separately, so that each class in each department would contain only boys of the same attainments in one subject, while the school class would contain boys of the same degree of attainments in different subjects ? — I do not see my way to that. I know that in some schools there is a system which is different from ours, i. e., the classical .arrange- ment or classification is the one which takes the lead in determining the school rank ; but the school is broken up into diflerent classes. Ou different days they pass into different sets of chasses ; classics on one day, then mathem.atics, then French, and other things. 681. I me.au if a boy goes into the sixth form of the school, that should be totally different from the sixth form in classics or mathematics, or anything else ; it should be something depending on the aggre- gate of his proficiency independent of that ? — I confess, though that m.ay appear to hold water on paper, I think it would be impracticable. 682. {Sir S. Northcote.) You speak of the school as a sm.all school : do you consider, supposing your chapel and acreage and everything else were doubled, you could without difficulty double the size of the school ? — No ; I should strongly object to that. I think three hundred boys as many as we, or, I will venture to say, any school ought to have. I mean by a small school one where all the best scholars will issue from the top, i. e., that there shall be such a number that the boys will be carried through, and all the best scholars will issue out of the top, from the chimney as it were, and not have to make side openings. All the chief influences of the school are at the top. The He.ad Master's in- fluence will be most effective in that way. He is at the top, .and it is from the top his influence reuches below. The highest subjects of learning and the highest influences are there. The limit is this : — the school should be of such a magnitude th.at all the best scholars can get through it, and go out at the top, with a certain stamp. It is extremely important that a school should have a definite character, and should give one stamp to the boys that issue from it in that way. 683. You would say, speaking in the abstract, it is desirable that a public school should be a homoge- neous school ? — I should say so. 684. But it would be impossible to preserve that homogeneous character beyond a certain limit ? — It would. For instance, suppose we got a great many more boys and a greater number of boarding houses, two consequences in my mind would follow ; first, that the Head Master, instead of being the repre- sentative of that which the school most teaches. PUBLIC SCHOOLS COMMISSION : —MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. instead of being most nble to put his own stamp on the boys, would be muster of tlie school in part only, so it would be a union of several seliools, which might be ever so diflerent from each other, instead of a single one, with a definite character. Secondly, many boys would be obliged to leave our school without ever reaching the top, i. c, without coming within the higher influences. 1 consider the stamp a boy re- ceives from a school of this kind to be extremely definite. I believe it is so with most public schools, but this school, I think, has a clearly defined stamp or mint mark. I know the general character of the boys who issue from thetopof this school perfectl}' well. 68.5. Do you consider there ought to be any par- ticular proportion between the number of prefects and the rest of tjie school with reference to the authority of the prefects ? — It would be difficult to say in the ab- stract that there should be such a pro])ortion ; there certainly should not be too many, there certainly ehould not be too lew ; but what the precise num- ber should be, is rather to be tried experimentally I think, than to bo settled in any arbitrary manner. 686. Do you think the prefects should be neces- sarily a tenth of the school, or thereabouts ? — I think not necessarily ; they ought to be numerous enough to be able to support one another and have authority. 687. [Lord Devon.) Adverting for a moment to the subject of the preceding question, as to a jilau ■which has been sometimes proposed, which is techni- cally called bifurcation, i. c, a division of the school into departments after a certain period ; would it be your view that supposing a boy to have pursued his classical studies up to sixteen, and then to be allowed to branch off if he pleased into another department, •which should be specially concerned in teaching, e. g., modern history or mathematics, that boy should be allowed to entirely abandon his studies of Greek and Latin, or that he should still pursue those stu- dies in a modified form, devoting less time to them ? — My previous answer precludes that question, inas- much as in a school of this kind and size, I doubt the practicability of bifurcation altogether, 688. I was rather referring to a school of such a magnitude as you think would admit of it ? — I would rather not answer that as an abstract question. 689. There is a library in the College for the pre- fects, to which the commoner prefects also have access ? — Yes ; there is also a smaller library belonging to the commoner prefects only. 690. Question 22 : " Is provision made for sys- " tematic instruction, elementary or advanced, in " music, or drawing, or both ? " You say, " We have " no such provision in respect of music ; occasionally " one or two boj s take lessons from tetichers of music " in the town." Is the service in the chapel occa- sionally choral or not ? — Yes ; we have an organist and singing men, and a choir complete ; and on Sundays we hare a choral service twice ; on Satur- day evenings we have a choral service, and also on saints' days. 691. That is a full service ? — Yes , we have not a full service at our morning chapel. I am at the pre- sent moment intending to make an alteration. We have a chanted service, but only a portion of the ser- vice ; I rather think it would be better to have ser- vice without chanting and to have a fuller service •with the daily lessons. 692. Do you think that is likely to be as interesting to boys as a shorter service with chanting ? — The present service leaves out the lessons and leaves out the psalms, and it appears to me to be a melancholy thing to leave out the lessons ; the contents of these lessons are things which boys seldom know except from epitomes, and therefore I would rather have the whole service at morning chapel than have a portion of it chanted. It would take ten minutes more. 693. Docs that rest with you, or with the Warden ? — By the ordinance, it rests with the Warden with the sanction of the Visitor ; but the Warden has left it to me to suggest what I think proper. The chapel altogether is in the hands of the Warden. Bev. G. Moberhj. 30 May 1862. 694. The Fellows are not bound to attend at WINCHESTER, chapel, we understand ? — No. GiJo. With regard to the Sunday service, at one part of the day, I think the boys attAid the cathe- dral ? — Yes ; -ivhen we are in full operation we have prayers at eight o'clock in the college chapel, at half past ten we go to the cathedral, where we have the litany, communion prayers, and a sermon, and we have prayers and a sermon in the chapel at five. 696. Question 23 is : " What means are adopted to " ])romote the religious and moral training of the " boys, and to enforce order and good conduct by the " presence and personal influence of masters and " tutors, by the help of monitors and prefects, or the " co-operation in any other way of the boys them- '' selves, by rewards and punishments, or otherwise ? " In answer to that, you refer us to the pamphlet to whicli we have .nlready referred ? — Yes ; I do not know that I can add anything to what is there stated upon this point, 697. Question 24 is as to the religious teaching or training of the boys ; who instituted the sei"mon in the chapel ? — There never was a sermon till Mr. Bar- ter came ; he undertook to do it every Sunday. AVhcii I came here he was very well pleased to get help, and during his wardenship I used to preach fre(piently. The present Warden has continued it. It ■was a point I was interested a'oout, and at the election of the Warden I spoke to some of the Fellows about it, i.e., that it should not be discontinued ; and the present Wai'den lias not only continued it, but has drawn up a cycle of preachers for the chapel. 698. As to the preparation for confirmation, 3'ou say that has been for the h.ist 1.5 years in the hands of the Head Master ; but with regard to the boarding- houses, you go on to say, " The tutors, will, however, " jirepare their own boarding pupils ns far as private " preparation is concerned." Practically, how would that be ? — We have never had a confirmation since the boarding houses have been opened, therefore 1 was guarding myself there against the idea that I could with those boys undertake the minute preparation and management I do with my own. Since Bishop Wordsworth left us, which is about 17 years, I have taken it it into my own hands, both as to the scholars and commoners ; but I do not propose to charge myself with the same preparation as to those boys, because they will bo at a distance, and I should have a difficulty in summoning them in the evenings. Things of that kind, which I now can manage with my own boys very conveniently, would be very inconvenient with boys at other houses. 699. {Lord Lyttelton.) You have had those board- ing-houses less than three years ? — Yes; and we have a confirmation every two years. 700. You s.ay you have not had a confirmation since the boarding-houses were opened ? — Yes. 701. But Mr. Wickham's house has been opened three years and a half? — I probably have made a mistake in that. 702. You would still think it right to go on with that private work, except so far as relates to the boarding houses ? — As far as lessons in school go, those boys will come to me as the others do, but all those private matters of preparation, such as conver- sation and the like, must be in the hands of the boarding tutors. 703. {Lord Devon.) As regards attendance »t Holy Communion, that I apprehend is entirely voluntary ? — Entirely voluntary, 704. Are the numbers considerable ? — As I have stated in this pamphlet, the boys come in such very large numbers, that sometimes the doubt arises, — whether there are not too many. The other danger begins to appear, i.e., ■vvhether it may not be possible, that out of so large a number, some come because it is the practice to come ; but ■with respect to that matter the whole state of things is most encouraging. 705. What is the Sunday lesson V — Greek Testa- ment. 706. Construed and explained ? — Yes ; ■we are Yy2 35G PUBLIC SCHOOLS COMMISSION :— MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. •WIN'CUESTEK. Fct: G. Muberhj. 30 May 18G2. constantly in the habit of going over the Greek Testa- ment in the upper part of the school ; and we have gone over the Gospels and the Acts of the Apostles m Greek contmuously during the last 24 years. They gain a very considerable knowledge from that. 707. {Lord Ltjtlclton.) All this private work you npeak of, which you are in the habit of doing with the boys preparing for communion, do you propose to make over from yourself to the boarding tutors? — Yes, I think so, as to those boys. 708. And to keep only the college boys and the boys in your own house ?— Yes ; I spoke just now of the school having a definite character, and giving one stamp to the boys that issue from it. I think that is one of the points which make that character so definite. From the complaints that the bishops make now of the young men who are candidates for orders,^ it ■would seeiii that such a preparation for confirmation and communion as we have is not common in schools. At the University of Oxford particularly, one of the points which distinguish our young men from our neighbours is a strongly marked religious character. 709. {Lord Devon.) Question 25 is, " Are the same " offences uniformly visited with the same punish- " ment "? Your answer is, " We have no such uniform " system." But 1 presume you have some propor- tionate relation of the punishment to the offence ? — Yes ; but it is no cast-iron system under which a boy who did so-and-so, would necessarily meet with this or that punishment ; of course there is a little discretion in the administration and management of such a school. 710. You say, " Boys are occasionally flogged by " the two chief masters only. Other punishments " are, literary impositions, confinement, standing up " in school, and the like." What is " standing up in " school, and the like " ? — I merely mean little things like this : a boy is inattentive, and instead of sitting down he is ordered to stand up. They always sit down to their lessons, and therefore, if a boy is doing anything -wi'ong, he is made to stand up for a short time, or possibly for a whole hour. It is punishment to stand. 711. "Confinement." What is that ? — Confine- ment we rarely have recourse to. It used to be the practice, but I do not like it. Instead of going out they are confined within the premises. 712. "Literary impositions." Is that learning by heart ? — Sometimes learning by heart, sometimes ■\vritiug out the lessons. 713. Ascending in the scale of punishments, we come to flogging : the second master and yourself are the only persons who have the power of flogging ? — Yes. 714. Is any cane ever used ? — No. 715. Where is the flogging administered ; is it administered in public or in the presence of chosen witnesses ? — Hitherto it has always been administered in the school. 716. In the presence of the whole school ? — Yes. I do not like the publicity of it. I do not approve of it as administered. It is neither one thing nor the other. It is neither severe enough nor is it nil. You have seen a picture of the instrument used ; it is not an ordinary rod at all ; it consists of four strong tv.'igs of an apple tree, .about three feet long, at the end of a long handle ; and there are a few inches of a boy's back bared, in the middle of the small of the back, so that it is a chance whether he is always hit. My impression is, that it is altogether a delusion. When I was here in my boy time, there was a very large number of boys flogged, and nobody cared about it. I think if there is to be such a punishment as flogging, it ought to be something which is serious. 717. How many floggings aa'e there in the course of a mouth ? — Not usually above one, or two. As I have said, there were a great number in former times ; I suppose there were sometimes scores in a week. I have known 20 in a day, and all for slight offences. Sometimes boys did not answer to their names in time. Now we punish in this way very rarely, and to tell you the honest truth, I have rather broken through the tradition of the Winchester rod, particularly with my commoners. I have occasionally taken boys into another room, and flogged them with an ordin.ary birch rod. A severe flon-n-ing with our ordinary rod would bo too severe. The difference is between stinging and bruising. 718. {3Ir. Vaughan.) Does not the other bruise ? —No. 719. {Lord Devon.) Do you inflict that punish- ment for literary as well as moral offences ? — I can- not say I ever make rigid distinctions of that sort ; I never do it unless I think there is a good ground for it. I should not do it with a boy who could not say his lessons unless it was the second or third offence, and I had warned the boy if it occurred again he would be severely punished in some way. I never should think of doing it simply for literary offences. 720. {3Ir. Vatcghan.) As to age, is any part of the school exempt from flogging ? — Practically the prefects are exempt from it. I have flogged a prefect two or three times in 27 years, but it has been for some serious matter. 721. It is no fixed rule ? — Practically it is a fixed rule unless it be for something considerable. 722. {Lord Lijttelton.) That does not apply to the whole number of the sixth book ? — I should consider them exempt unless they did anything disgraceful. It would be a great disgrace for one of them to be flogged. 723. {Lord Devon.) Putting aside the last week, can you tell us what the average number of corporal punishments would be ? — I have said there are from 10 to 20 in a year, perhaps in some years a few more. 724. {Lord Lyttelton.) Has the second master absolute power to flog without reference to you ? — Yes. 725. {Mr. Thompson.) Do you include his list in the 10 or 20?— Yes. 726. {Lord Lyttelton.) With respect to the second master, the oft'ences which come before him are those of the boys under his charge ? — When the Head Master was allowed to take pupils and live out of the college and be at the head of the commoners, the second master became practically the master of the college boys. He lives within the walls, and therefore all matters relating to the college boys go, in the com- mon course of things, except as to very important matters, to him. 727. But still matters of extreme gravity would come to you or to the Warden ? — Yes. 728. Passing over the second master ? — Any case would pass from the second master which involved the possibility of the boy being expelled. 729. {Lord Devon.) With reference to your rela- tion on the subject of punishment with the Warden, does it ever occur or often occur that in case you should think it necessary to inflict a certain punish- ment upon a scholar you feel it necessary to consult the Warden first. I am speaking not of expulsion but of corporal punishment ? — Yes ; supposing such a case as a case of theft or something of that kind, it is a matter of grave consequence, and there- fore important that the Warden should be aware of it first of all ; it adds to the gravity of the occasion that it should be carried before him and notoriously carried before him. The probability would be that the Warden would direct that the boy should be punished, and it would be done ; so that in cases of considerable gravity on the part of scholars they would certainly go before him. 730. That would be a matter in your discretion, would it ? — I should think it would be a matter of indiscretion if I did not do it. For instance, we are strict about boys not being out without le.ave. If boys should be found going out into the town, I should probably bring them before the Warden. 731. Wh.at are your bounds? — Till recently they were rather rigid. The boys were excluded from the town absolutely, and had a very limited range of the country to which they could go. Within the last PtTBLIC SCHOOLS COMMISSION: — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 357 two or three yciU's we have enlarged the bounds. We still exclude them liom the town, ;. c, they are not allowed to go there unless invited to a tiieud'.s house, and then they must have leave ; but they have full and free range over the open country. They pass out of the college gates, along by the garden wall, and so on to the meadows. If we find any boys going into the town, or coming round by the meadows back again into it, we consider it a very great offence. 732. What leave have they between the schools ? — The longest is on a Tuesday morning between eleven and one. 733. Two iiours ? — Yes, that is the longest. 734. Question 27, " What powers and duties in " maintaining the discipline of the school are assigned " to any of the boys themselves ?" — I have stated a good deal about that in this pamphlet. 735. Ai'e all the sixth form prefects, or only a por- tion? — In college the full prefects are 10. There arc others who have partial authority in the chambers. Those who are really full prefects and so constituted are 10. 736. Are they selected by you ? — No ; they are the 10 seniors. Yet any one would be prevented who had done anything that would render him in- eligible for it. 737. When you speak of ten college prefects, does that Include the five special officers ? — Yes, it includes those five. There are 10 altogether. 738. Is the prefect of the hall generally a colleger? — Yes, alwaj-s. 739. He is the highest officer ? — Yes. At this moment he is the tenth senior in the school. 740. {Lord Lijttelton.) He is selected ? — Yes. 741. By yourself? — The Warden gives him autho- rity, and takes my advice about it. 742. {Lord Devon.) Have the college prefects authority only over the scholars ? — Only over the scholars, and it is a point upon which there is a little jealousy between the two p;irts of the school as to whether any authority should be exercised by one part over the other. I have found it necessary re- cently to determine that those five officers particu- larly, are officers over the whole, and the prefect of the hall is the chief officer under the masters of the school, and therefore he is to be attended to. 743. {Lord Lytlelton.) Over the commoners as well as the scholars? — Yes. At the same time his authority is looked upon with a little jealousy by the authorities on the other side. 744. Does it ever happen that he administers punishment to a commoner of his own authority ? — Yes ; in his own department. He has authority over them at such and such times, and if they do not do right he gives them punishment. 745. {Lord Devon.) Is the possession of superior physical power an essential element in the chai'acter of a prefect ? — No. 746. Would a prefect who was a little boy be able to enforce obedience ? — He would not be so potent a magistrate as one who had a strong pair of shoulders. But at the same time moral force is more effectual than physical. 747. {Lord L.ytteltoti.) The thrashing power is not exercised by a weak boy ? — No ; probably he would ask his neighbour to do it. 748. Do they carry sticks for the purpose of thrashing ? — They have sticks ; I do not think they always carry them about. 749. Are they the only boys who have sticks ? — I do not think any other boys have them. 750. {Mr. Vaughan.) Is there any part of the school below the prefects which is exempt from the power of the prefects ? — No. 751. The transition is immediate : is it fi'om sub- jection to the exercise of power? — Yes. With a boy of the fifth form of course they deal with a good deal of leniency, as a sort of aristocracy rising to themselves. 752. Do they set impositions ? — If they should G. MoherUj.t 30 May 18C2. choose to do so, the boysmust obey; but it is regarded WINCHESTEK. as a thing quite out of a boy's province. 753. {Lord Devon.) In answer to question 30, you say '• you have known occasional instances where the '• authority of prefects has been oppressively used ;" but, upon the whole, you think the institution of prefects is a very valuable one for the school ? — Yes, I think so, for many reasons, but particularly for the protection of the "boys. The moment the prefects come in sight there is an end of all that irritating bullying, which is the hardest thing a boy has to bear. The physical power of the irresponsible dolts low down in the school is the chief source of bullying, and the instant a prefect comes in sight that stops. 754. Do you consider that institution has a valuable result in inculcating a sense of responsibility on the part of the boys ? — Extremely so ; I hardly know which is most useful, the habit of obedience which it requires from the lower boys or the exercise of autho- rity on the part of the higher ones. It appears to me to be admirable on both sides. 755. The relation of the prefects to the junior boys is entirely independent of the power of fagging exer- cised by the seniors over the juniors ? — No, the power of fagging is what I allude to. We have no fagging except for the prefects. There is no one else who has the power to fag. Within the last week I have been making a great noise about a matter which I had discovered. In some of the chambers one or two of the senior boys who were not prefects had been fagging the juniors. They said in their defence they only asked the boys to do so and so for them. I told them if I found any boy who was not a prefect exacting any kind of office from another we should regard it as a grave offence. 756. You spoke of the prefects commanding the boys' services at games ; what other services can they command. To brush their clothes ? — Yes, they brush their clothes ; and in the chambers in college a good deal of work is done by the younger boys. The fag puts the kettle on and lights the fire to boil the boy's water to make his tea. 757. Do they black their shoes ? — No ; but I will not answer for it, always ; sometimes there is an ex- ceptional pair of shoes to be blacked, and they may require the boys to do it. 758. Do they clean the candlesticks ? — I cannot say ; I think it is against the law. 759. {Lord Lyttelton.) Fagging is confined to the scholars ? — No ; each of the commoner prefects, I believe, has got, perhaps, three or four juniors who are his valets. 760. Is there any limit to the number of boys a prefect may have in his service ? — In college I can tell exactly what the traditions are ; there are so many boys to each chamber ; the juniors have certain offices to do, and they confine themselves very much to those. The junior calls them up in the morning ; the second junior does such and such things. 761. Supposing a prefect bullies one of the boys dependent upon him and that boy complains to you, would the other prefects be against that little boy or against the prefect ? — It would depend a greal deal upon the nature of the case. 762. I am speaking of a wrong done ? — I think, if it was a wrong done, the other prefects would go against it altogether, i. e. if they themselves thought it a wrong. I do not mean to say, if it was in itself a wrong ; that might be a question, because the notions of the boys are apt to be mistaken sometimes ; but if it was a thing they considered wrong among themselves they would be against it. 763. Could you depend upon them in punishing a case of bullying ? — Yes ; if they thought it as wrong as I did. 764. But not otherwise? — It would depend upon the nature of the case. 11 it was a case where their own traditional code might make it appear to be an usual thing, and therefore not to be objected to, Yy3 858 PUBLIC SCHOOLS COIDIISSION : — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. WINCHESTEE. tlicy would support it. If it was a case of bullying or wrong they would be all against it. TGo. {Mr. Vaughan.) You spoke of fagging boys Dei: a. Muberltj. an May 1862. at games ; are the boys who are fagged at games the same as the boys who are fagged for the purpose of discipline ? — Yes. 766. Arc all the boys who do not fag at games fagged ? — Yes. 767. {Lord Lijttelton.) Are they sent with mes- sages ? — Yes, within the bounds. 768. Cricket fagging is allowed ? — Yes. 769. Does that compri.se taking a part in the game or merely throwing the ball up ? — Merely fagging out. 770. It does not promote a knowledge of the game? — That depends upon circumstances. If a boy is able to liowl be may be sent for to l)owl to the prefects. 771. Are they obliged to take part in any other game than cricket ? — Football. 772. {Mr. ]'aughan.) Do they keep goal at foot- ball or take part in it ? — Sometimes they do both. 773. You have not a football game going on with the smaller boys at the same time with the larger boys? — Yes, but it is a small game. That is one of the things I have been very much pleased with of late years. When I was a boy there was but one cricket game and one football game, and the little boys used to fag out ; now there is a cricket game and a football game among the little boys. 774. Can they both be going on at the same time ? —Yes. 77o. {Lord Devon.) Is there not p, division between the playground of the college and that of the com- juoncrs ? — A wall divides the college playground li'om a field I have for the commoners. The meadow j-ou were in yesterday belongs to the college boys, and the commoners are only visitors there ; but the two parts of the school are now so blended into one, that the ])layground, I hope, will become as much the commoners' as the collegers'. 776. Is that line of demarcation still kept up ? — Thefe is a wall which at present divides the col- L^gers' meadow from the commoners' field, and which I Avish to have down for every consideration, — not only to unite the two parts of the school into one, but because it keeps oft' the south wind from the pre- mises, and interferes very much with the full ventila- tion of our buildings ; but it may perhaps be some time before the College will agree that the commoners have an equal right to the playground. They will give them full and kindly permission as neighbours to play there, but it will be only as neighbours.* 777. {Lord Lytlclton.') Do commoners not only play in that ground, but come there and practise ? — Yes, they come and practise there. I have besides a field a quarter of a mile off for the commoners expressly. 778. In the valley ?^Yes ; about a quarter of a mile oft'. 779. Is it as good a ground as the other ? — No, it is neither .so large nor so level. 780. {Mr. Vaughan.) Are the commoners as good at crjckct as the collegers, and vice versa ? — Yes, they are equal to them. 781. {Sir S. Northcote.) When you speak of an objection to take down the wall, do you mean on the part of the college boys ? — No ; I meant that there might probably be an objection on the part of the Warden and Fellows ; the boys wish it down of all things. It would practically have the eflTect of giving the commoners a right to go into the college meadow. Everything that tends to blend the whole of the school into one is of great value. Now, the commoners are equally eligible for scholarships at New College, and anything which will get rid of the idea of our being two separate bodies, with difterent interests and feelings, and make us one body, is highly desirable. You saw the Fives Courts now in course of erection • The wall lias Ireen pulled dmvn, and the commoners are now freelv aaontted to the college meadow, Oct. 1SC2.— G.M. yesterday, in the commoners' meadow ; they are the gift of one of the Fellows, the Rev. Charles Henry Ridding, and as they are situated within the com- moners' ])remises, I hope they will have the effect of getting rid of that wall. 782. {Mr. Vaughan.) Do you consider the three- fold division of the year as the best division for the prosecution of the studies of the place ? — I think it is better than what we had before. We had only two before, and one was very long, five months and a half. I have been very anxious to have that a little broken, and now we get rather more than a fortnight at Easter. I think that break is very desirable. 783. Do you think, upon the whole, that three breaks in the year are required for rest ? — Yes. 784. {Lord Devon.) Having regard to the interest of learning as well, as of the boys, with regard to the intercourse between them, has it occurred to you to be desirable that all public schools should have the same holidays ? — Yes, and that other schools should do so as well, for the younger brothers of our boys are often at other schools. We are, more or less, restricted by our statutes. William of Wykeham has given this rule, that we are to have holidays between the Translation of St. Thomas the Martyr, which is the 7th .'uly, and Michaelmas. In former times it used to lie later ; now we have put it at the earliest time after the 7th July. 783. {Lord Devon.) Question 33. "While the " boys are at school, what are the usual holidays " or half holidays during the week ?" The answer is " Our system in this respect is very peculiar." What holidays have you durir^g the week ?^Our system is a very peculiar one, and one I find it extremely difl!icult to explain. We have holidays properly so called only on saints' days. 786. Are those whole holidays ? — Yes. 787. What is done on those days ? — We go to chapel in the morning, and there is no work of any kind. 788. No private tutor work ? — Unless the private tutor chooses to propose it ; there is no set work. Then we have what we call " remedies." Our " re- medies," are a very peculiar institution. For instance to day is a half repiedy, and every Tuesday, Thursday, and Friday. On these we go into school until twelve- The masters do not go into school any further. The boys after dinner, (a little after two,) go out to St. Catherine's Hill. TJiey are out there about an hour and a half ; they then come back again, and at four, for about an hour, (at some times in the year a little more than an hour,) the commoners are shut up in their hall, and the college boys in the school with- out any master present, under the charge of their prefects ; and are bound to be occupied busily in their preparation for the next day. Then the French lessons and the* German lessons are going on. A good deal of collateral work is done in that time. 789. {Lord Lyttelton.) Compulsory work ? — They are obliged to be at work. 790. {Mr. Vaughan.) What is their particular amusement during the hour at St. Catherine's Hill ? — During this present time of year, we do not make them go up the hill much, so they are wf>ndering amongst the meadows and bathing, fishing, jumping over brooks, and things of that kind ; some of them gathering flowers, which they have taken to rather of late. At other times of the year, I cannot say they have any definite amusement. They sometimes have a game of football, and sometimes a game of cricket ; but only the little boys ; the others are taking a walk over the country or something of that sort. 791. {Lord Devon.) Do they gather flowers in that walk over the country ?^-Since we have enlarged the bounds they have begun to do that, and 1 am glad to see they liavc. It was impossible with our former constrained bounds. 792. {Lord Lyttelton.) You give prizes for wild flowers ? — Yes ; and very useful it has been. Several boys have taken to botany. 793. {Lord Devon.) You have a rifle corps here ? — Yes, PUBLIC SCHOOLS COSIMISSION :— MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 794. Bo rou know how often tliey meet ? — I ain afraid I am not very familiar with the matter. They began with about 50 volunteers, and were drilling three times a week ; then the number went otf very much, and there was a fear it would all die away. It was then thought they should be allowed to shoot, and after that the corps became stronger. Now they have about CO, and they are allowed to go up on Fridays on the Downs where tlic soldiers practise, in two divisions, and, with their parents' permission, they practise rifle shooting, 795. Have they carbines from the Government ? — They had hi the first instance carbines from the Go- vernment ; I am afraid I do not know what they are using now. 796. (Lord Lyttelton.) Have tliey a regular uni- form ? — Yes. 797. How are the expenses provided for ? — The parents provide for them. 798. Have they a drill Serjeant in the town ? — ■ Yes. We have not yet agreed upon their going to Wimbletlou to contest with the other schools. To tell you the honest truth, I am not much in favour of tho whole thing. I think it is rather an idle affair. 799. You have not observed any good eftect from it ? — No ; I do not expect it will lead to much good. 800. You do not know whether it is popular with the boys ? — I think for a time the shooting makes it popular ; and if they go to Wimbledon in competi- tion with other schools it will be very popular. 801. Who is the commanding otKcer ? — One of the prefects. 802. {Lord Devon.) He is responsible for their conduct when they go to the practice ground ? — Yes. 803. Do they come in contact with the soldiers ? — There are soldiers where they are firing. 804. And their serjeant is with them ? — Yes. 80.1. {Mr. Thompson.) That does not encourage rdleness ? — No. 806. {Lord Devon.) Independent of the rille corps is there drilling ? — Yes, I have for some years had a Serjeant down, and if I see a boy round shouldered, or walking in a slovenly w.ay, I sometimes tell him to go and join the drill class. I never make any charge for that to the parents. 807. Question 34, is as to the hours of dressing in the morning, and going to bed at night. The answer is, " Till the present half year the rule has been to " meet in morning chapel at 6 between Lady Day " and Michaelmas, and at a quarter before 7 during " the rest of the half year. In this half year we " have shifted the time to 7, and half past 7, and " I think it probable that we may continue this " or some such arrangement of hours." For how many hours are the boys in school on regular school days ? — On Mondays and Wednesdays which are the only two very complete school days, they go into school at 7.30, for half an hour ; they then go in at 9, and stay till 12. They again go into school at 2, and stay till 4.30. Then they go in from 5 to 6. That is seven hours. I have of that in a regular way about five hours. I go in for about half an hour before breakfast, then I go in at 9, and com- monly come out at 11.30, and then I go in from 3 to 4.30, and from 5 to 6. 808. Question 36, " What is the acreage of the " ground allotted to the boys for their out-door " amusements and games ?" You say, " The college " meadow is about four acres " ? — I wish we had more ground ; it is one of our greatest necessities, but we are bounded by rivers ; there is a stream imme- diately behind the meadow wall, so that we cannot extend the ground an inch further in that direction. 809. Is there any plan in contemplation by which you can extend your ground ? — No further than by taking down the wall I alluded to just now. 810. {Mr. Vaughan.) Is it your opinion that the having two distinct playgrounds, and two distinct controlling systems of supreme government, and two prefect systems, tends to destroy the unity of the school ? — To a certain extent such a double system Rev. G. Muherhj. 30 May 1862. is inevitable. My boys live with me iu my house, WINCHESTER, and must be governed there ; and if there is to be an authority for the college boys, it must be an authority which will tell upon them where they are. 811. The question I wished to ask was whether the having two controlling systems and two playgrounds tends to destroy the unity of the school and college as one public school ? — No doubt it does so in some de- gree, and everything that tends to blend the school into one will be for our good, e. g., if that wall comes down or anything else happens which will tend to make us one. Now the commoners are eligible to New College, the sooner we are recognized as one school the better. The only ditt'erence is that some pay fov their education and some do not. The sooner we are blended together with the exception of that difference the better. 812. {Lord Devon.) Question 41 is "What ath- '' letic exercises are taught as a part of the educa- " tion ?" The answer is "None"? — No. 813. {Sir S. Northcote.) There is no boating ? — No ; there is a poor stream here. They have been trying to get up boats, but I had a letter from the Navigation Commissioners saying that it injured the navigation. 814. {Lord Devon.) The water is deep enough to swim in ? — Yes, we have a very good bathing place. There is nothing done by way of teaching swimming. 81o. What are "hill-times "and "leave-out" times, mentioned in the answer to question 40 ? — At twelve o'clock upon a school-day the boys are out of school from twelve till one. The college boys go out into their meadow alone, but the commoners not having so much ground have leave out and may go to the meadows and their own field if they like, or may range about the country. 816. {I^ord Lyttchon.) Has there ever been any accident to boys left to themselves to swim ? — I have never known one drowned. I have known one or two in danger of being drowned, and I think it would be a good thing if we had a person to teach them to swim after the Eton fashion. Our streams are not very deep nor very wide. 817. {iMrd Devon.) You say, as to public speeches, there are in the course of the year public speeches ? — Yes : we have a number of curious arrangements which have not come out in the course of this ex- amination. One is this, — our long or spring half- year is divided into three periods. The first, which we call " Common time," lasts about six weeks ; the next is called " Easter time," which also lasts six weeks, and the remaining eleven weeks are called " Cloister time," which is the present time. During " Easter time " we have speaking ; the greater part of the school is divided into six chambers, as we call them, and each chamber speaks upon its own Saturday morning. The masters come in and take their seats in the school, and from 20 to 25 boys speak speeches extracted from the works of the chief English poets. 818. In the presence of the whole school ? — Yes. 819. Dialogues? — Sometimes. It is almost always Shakspeare or Milton. After that we have one day upon which there is a more considerable speaking. About 20 boys who speak best in the school speak separately, and then we invite the people in the town. There come about 20 or 30 gentlemen. 820. Is that on the occasion of the visit of the examiner ? — No ; it does not go beyond the neigh- bourhood. A few gentlemen come down, and in the last year or two we have had some ladies. At the election recitations there are two speeches for which medals are given. I think it very useful ; they get a clearer utterance .and articulation from it, andleara a good deal of the art of elocution. 821. {Lord I^ytteUon.) And it takes away a good deal of their false shame ? — Yes ; which of itself is a great thing. 822. (.S'i> S. Northcote.^ Do you think it would be possible to establish a uniform grammar for aU the Yy4 SCO PUBLIC SCHOOLS COIOIISSION : — MIXUTES OF EVIDENCE. Jicv. G. Moberly. 30 May 1862. WiXOHESTEB. public schools ? — If I may venture to ansiver that question indirectly, when we were anticipating these interviews with the Commissioners, six months ago, there was a meeting of the masters of public schools in London, to talk over some of these matters together; and I may say the Commission has done us a very great favour at the outset ; it has begun by enume- rating nine schools as public schools, so that the masters of those nine schools may meet together without any reflection upon their brethren. We rather propose to go on and take counsel together upon matters relating to us all in common. Oue of the things we should consider is whether it is not possible to get one grammar. 823. You liave no doubt it would be possible ? — I have no doubt it would be desirable. I am vciy doubtful whether it would be practicable. I think there would be the utmost diversity of opinion ; and one very grave question would be, to whom would you api^Iy to draw it up ? For instance. Dr. Kennedy has published Greek and Latin grammars ; and his gram- mars are very valuable. I do not know that the other masters have done so, but the grammars they use are various. 824. Does it occur to you the Commissioners' judgment could have any weight in the matter ?— I think it would be the greatest thing for the classical education of England that we should have one grammar. 825. You think there is no doubt a recommendation contained in our report would have some weight ? — Certainly. 826. Could you suggest any way in which we could give effect to such a recommendation ? Would such a recommendation be attended with any con- sequence which the Head Masters could acquiesce in upon the subject ? — I have no doubt a recommenda- tion upon that point would be verj' .useful, and have a very good effect. But I think the real difficulty would arise in a^later stage, as to who was to draw up such a grammar, and when drawn up, whether it would be esteemed sutlicieutly good for all the schools to adopt it at once. 827. {Lord Lytteltoyi.') Though you think it would be attended witli difficulty, you say some better and more useful grammar is wanted both for Greek and Latin ? — It is not for mo to suggest, but I should say not some better one but some uniform one. 828. {Mr. Thompson.) I think your classical pro- nunciation at Winchester used to differ from the pronunciation in vogue in the rest of the schools and at the universities also ? — Yes. 829. You approach nearer to the continental system ? — Yes, but only in the single vowel " a." 830. AVould not that be a subject for your deliber- ations ? — I am afraid we could not vary that ; but that is another matter on which we might consult. I had a long talk last j-ear with the late Provost of Eton on this subject ; and we were considering whe- ther it would not be possible to do something of that kind. I do not think it would be possible for this school by itself to do much in that way. Still I do not see why we should not try. 83L {Lord Devon.) Questions 4<$ and 44, and the answers thereto, have a general bearing upon each other ; would you wish to add anything to your answers to those two questions ? We shall be very glad to hear anything in the way of general obser- vations ? — I do not know that I can add much to those answers. They express, briefly, of course, what I wislied to convey. If I am asked, " Are you satis- " iied with the results of the education at Winchester, " and do they seem to you to lie such as ought to be " expected from a great school of this kind ?" I would reply, that so far as I can judge of the results of our system by the success of our pupils in after life, I think those results are eminently satisfactory. Jf the school is to be judged simply by the amount of honours we have gained at the universities, I am quite prepared to be told that, as compared with two or three other public schools, wo have not fought a successful or, perhaps, even a verycredlt.ible battle. We have not gained an equal number of high dis- tinctions in various ways ; I am aware of that, and I could wish it were otherwise. It may perhaps be accounted for in part by our peculiar connexion with Kew College. But I cannot consent to accept itas a fair, still less as a final test of the goodness of our training. While we sliould liave been v.'ell pleased to have carried ofi" higher honours at the universities, I will say this, that in the next stage of life, when our pupils have passed through the university, and are engaged in the active serious business of life as clergymen, lawyers, merchants, soldiers, members of Parliament, I can point to hundreds of my own boys who are discharging the duties of their positions in all tlie departments of life in such a manner as not only to do credit to themselves, but to reflect the highest honour on the school in which they were bred. So superior in some respects are they, that I am con- stantly in the habit of finding that if persons want young men as tutors, or curates, or in otlier such important positions, tliey are much pleased if they can get such as we recommend as having passed through our training. Every school of tliis size has a definite character, and gives a peculiar stamp to its pupils ; and I could, with more or less distinctness, characterize the pupils of the imblic schools of Eng- land by the particular stamp or mint-mark they bear. That which distinguishes our Winchester boj's is one which is recognized by those who are acquainted witli our public schools as of a very distinct and valuable kind. I consider that those boys who issue from the top of the school, i.e., those upon whom the highest influences of tlie school have been brought to bear, are boys who, if not of so high a standard of scholarship as some others, carry with them into lite a stamp, not of a very showy kind, but distinguished by a self-reliance, a modesty, a practical good sense, and a strong religious feeling; that religious feeling being, of a very moderate, traditional, and sober kind ; which, in my judgment, is beyond all price. It seems to me, if that view be a just one, and it is borne out by the fiicts, this College has done a great deal of genuine good in the country. Our pupils are not essay writers ; we do not train them to that. We do not set them to write essays upon subjects which are a great deal too high for boys, or lead them to theorise on the gravest subjects which can occupy the minds of men, before they hp.ve either knowledge or experience iu any degree adequate to the task. I must add, I have a strong opinion as to the state of education jn our universities and public schools. I think some of our public schools teach boys as if they were men, while our universities teach men as if they were boys. I want to teach oui' boys as boys until we send them to the university to be taught as men. I think, while they are at school, they should be taught purely as boys. I think it is a dangerous thing to lay before them the most serious problems of philosophy and politics, of which they can know nothing, aud to accustom them to throw out views of their own, and to cultivate what is called " power," while their minds are in a perfectly crude state so far as regards knowledge. When they go to the university, I should like very much to see the in- dispensable classical examinations put as early as the Colleges might think proper to permit in certain cases, in order that young men of more special promise might put themselves under the direction of professors in Ihe various sciences. I want to see hijurcatxon at the university, so that young men, after they have passed their sine quibiis -non, may branch off into other lines ; but I do not want to introduce bifur- cation here. I think you ought to treat boys at a public school as schoolljoys, not only in discipline, but in what they are taught ; and therefore that you ought to keep off bifurcation from the school coiu'se. 832. You are of opinion that your pupils possess those excellent qualities you mention in your anwers beyond the boys of other schools ? — Of course it is not for me to compare this with other schools, but I PUBLIC SCHOOLS COMMISSION :— MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. SCI find that if people want a tutor, or want a curate, I find my former jiupils are very highly pi'ized, and very much sought after. 833. Question 44. You say there arc certain things which in a new institution you would re- commend in preference to those which you find existing here, but you do not wish to propose them to the Commissioners. I suppose that would be upon the ground, that if you thought it desirable and prac- ticable, you could make such alterations and amend- ments Avithout our aid ? — Partly that and partly be- cause, as I say, here is a very ancient and peculiar institution, liaving a large body of former pupils now busy in various departments of active life. It would he injurious to the school in many ways, that the old usages should be needlessly departed from, and the traditional feelings of Wykehamists rudely interfered with, for the sake of the problematical and probably slight benefits to be obtained by any considerable changes. I would rather work the system with such alterations as we can from time to time introduce, than foi'cibly alter it, though it is by no means the model I would myself adopt for a new establishmeut. 834. {Lord Lyttelton.) Does Table B. represent au actual state of things. Do j'ou ever have boys so 3'oung as that ? — No, they are not eligible into col- lege till 10 ; I would not take a younger commoner. When I am asked about the age, I say, " Do not " send me a boy before 11, unless he is more than " usually advanced both in body and mind." 835. With reference to a previous question, I ■would ask whether the amount of original English prose, as done by the boys in the sixth form is not very ample ? — To that I answer, I do not think it is of much v.aluc except the historical essay in the Christmas holidays, which is really very useful. 836. {Mr. TAowi^Jio;;.) I sujipose they have agood deal of English to write in the way of answering questions. The language they use would be animad- verted upon if slovenly or slipshod in an extraordi- nary degree ? — Not so much as I could wish, perhaps. There comes up again that which is the original evil of our arrangement ; we have too many boys at the top of' the school under the Head Master ; we want fewer there. If he had the first 20 or the first 30, all these things could be much more thoroughly done ; but ■with his school time taken up by another large class, the result is, that at the upper part of the school, the top boys of all, the work is not so thorough as it ought to be ; partly for the reason I mentioned in the early part of the day, that the interest a little goes off of the master's manner of teaching, from the boys remaining under him for several years, i.e., for all the time that they are among the 80 seniors. In former days, no part of the upper school was lialjlc to any change of places. There wa.s no change in the position of a boy beyond the middle of the school, i.e., that part of the school which a boy generally reaches at about 13 or 14 years old, and which is under the direction of the second master ; and the final struggle at that point of the school depended mainly upon saying a great number of lines by heart. Sometimes I have known as many as 22,000 lines said in that way in the course of the trial week. I have known of a boy repeating a play of Sophocles without missing a word. The quantity learnt liy heart was enormous. That was the last great struggle of the school; it practically decided ever3'thiug. New College depended upon it. The consequence of that was, that when the boys issued from that trial and came into my own classes I found a great stagnation. Emulation seemed to be over ; the boys vrere resting on their oars. With some difficulty (for new things have always been unpopular among us), I mtroduced about ten years since the system of changing p'aces in my own lower class, and the result has been uniformly good. It is now the most lively, active, and improving class in the school. The consequence is, that the stagna- tion point has been shifted a little higher, and that ■\yhen they pass to that, i.e., the lower part of the sixth form, they begin to rest upon their oars again. 1. licv. G. Mo!icrhj. That is the place where there is danger of that sort of WiNCnKSTER. stagnation. When they get higher they begin to have objects in view, elections for scholarships and exhibitions at Oxford, the Goddard scholarship par- ticularly ; still that is the place at which there is apt 30 May 1862. to be rather a calm. 837. {Lord Lyttelton.) You attach great import- ance to the power of expressing accurately written English by means of translation. Do you consider yon have enough translation into English from Greek and Latin upon paper ? — I do not tliink we have. I also wish to say this. l*rofessor Thompson asked whe- ther we do not animadvert upon careless expressions. We do not do that so much as I could wish, and I attribute that very much to the immense quantity of work the Ileail Master has to do from the number of boys. If I had but one class it would be different. I am quite certain of this, the thing wo most want in the internal arrangement of the school is to confine the Head Master to one class. 838. I observe with reference to English writing, in the lower division of the fifth form, there is said to be " none" ? — Yes. 839. {3Ir. Vnughan.) There is an intermission of English papers ? — Yes. 840. {Lord Lyttelton.^ In the upper sixth form, there is no translation into English verse, or English prose ? — Such a thing is done now and then. 841. {Mr. ]'(iugltan.) Is there any particular rea- son for the omission of all Greek prose in the highest form, i. e., construing Greek prose ? — There is no such omission. We are always construing Thucydides. 842. There is no construing of Greek prose re- turned in Table C. ? — Yes. 843. It is an accidental omission ? — Yes. We have always got a book of Thucj-dides in hand. 844. {Mr. Thompsoii.) I see here only one play of Sophocles, and none of other authors ? — Our common usage with respect to that is, that ordinarily the sixth book would do a whole play of Sophocles in the autumn half year, and a play of ^schylus, or one of those sets of Pindar's Odes in the other half year. 845. You begin with iEschylus ? — No, we begin with Euripides, then we take Sophocles, and ylischylus last. 846. {Mr. Vaughan.) Is there any reason for there heiiig no Latin or English verse or prose repetition in the upper sixth form, in fact in either part of the sixth form ? — We have hardly any repetition in the sixth form ; I wish we had more. We have, at a certain ])art of the year, a few lines from Sophocles. Erery Saturday morning, before they do their Greek verses, I require a certain number of lines from Sophocles ; but it is of no use to set a boy to learn 40 or 50 lines by heart and let him go away without saying the whole, and saying it perfectly. 847. You consider it au omission ? — I do ; one I lament ; one I would supply if I had only a single class. 848. {Mr. Thoyiipson.) The moral of it all is, that you want another master ? — Yes. I do not know what the average of other schools is ; I should like to know the number of boys they have to the number of masters. 849. ( Mr. Vaughan.) Do you carry in yom- mind that Virgil is begun so low as the lowest form but one of the senior division of the fourth form, do you happen to know that ? — No, I did not know that ; I presume it is comparatively recent, for they always used to do Ovid. I should very much doubt whether it is so at this moment. 850. Could you tell us what is the nature, both as to subject, style, and matter, of the exercise you call a " valgus ? — It is a thing very peculiar to the school, except that Dr. Arnold introduced it, I be- lieve, at Eugby. I set the subjects three times a week, and the boys produce next morning a sort of epigram, i. e. six lines in elegiac verse. Low down they are very bad sometimes ; but still, if a boy has any sparkle about him, there is a good deal of epigrammatic cleverness shown. These things come up constantly, three times a ■week, in the morning. Zz 862 PUBLIC SCHOOLS COIDIISSION ;— MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. WIXCHBSTEE. Ilev. G. Mvbcrhj. 30 5Iay 1862. 851. Js it not one consequence of your liaving to attend to such a number of boys that some of the lessons are very short, as from 7.30 to 8, and 11.30 to 12 ? — Tiiat is not so in my own experience ; our lessons are not short by any means. From 7.30 to 8 every day we have the Greek Testament, we have therefore half an hour at* that ; and as we are con- tinually reading it, we go into a considerable number of matters relating to the Greek Testament. 852. {Lord Devon.) I should like to ask why you did not extend the practice of taking places above tlio fifth form, considering tlie benefit which has attended its adoption there ? — It is a very grave question, and one I am very glad to reply to. I have no doubt if we extended that measure, or a measure like it, to the top of the school, we should stimulate industry very much ; and if my object were merely to send my boys as good scholars as they can be made to Oxford, I should do that ; but my object is a higher one than that ; I want to accustom them to work as a duty, not for the daily, hourly, stimulus of taking or losing places. They will have to do so well in order to get to the university, that that will be stimulus enough at that point of the school, and I am content to take the dis.ad vantage of a somewhat lax exertion for the sake of giving them that most necessary moral lull. 853. {Mr. Vaughan.) Do you think you carry them over that temptation to stagnation successfully? — More or less I think so ; not wholly certainly, but still more or less. I think it would operate much more seriously on a number of boys if it were not for that lull. We all know after a certain period of exertion, after a year's work, there must come a time of rest, especially when near the end, or a boy will be apt to shut up his books, you do not know for how long. When a boy, after having worked at a public school, goes to the university, at a period when he is becoming a man, and consequently more his own master, he is extremely apt to shut his books up. I think, therefore, we do a great good by not pressing The witness that artificial stimulus further than we have hitherto done, though, perhaps, we might get more immediate fruit from it. 854. {Lord Lytteltoii.) But is there not a much greater change as to stimulus between the school and the university ; has he not a greater stimulus at the university ? — Perhaps so, in some cases, but not of the same kind. This is a stimulus minute by minute. 855. (3Ir. Thompson.) Do they take places while the class is being heard ? — Yes. 856. Is that changing of places commonly done ? — Yes. 857. {Lord Devon.) I understood you to say, the system of taking places had been introduced with ad- vantage as far as the fifth form ; what I wanted to ascertain was, why it stopped at that particular point ? — For the reason I have stated. 858. Is it the case that in the sixth form the places are not re-adjusted during the term ? — They are never re-adjusted except for New College. 859. {Lord Lyttelton.) About the hours : taking the Monday's work of the sixth form, a boy in the sixth form is employed seven hours on Monday ? — The whole of the boys are. 860. You have one set portion for work ? — Our general principle is, that every boy shall have an hour to learn a lesson in school, and an hour to say it. 861. That is on a regular school day ? — Yes. 862. On such a day as that, what will be the greatest time a boy will be about his work ; say, when he is about competing for a scholarship ? How much work will he do out of school besides those hours ? — It is very much in his own discretion. I am sorry to say they st.ay up at night more than they ought, and get up iu the morning earlier that they ought. 863. Will a hard-working boy work as much as nine or ten hours a day sometimes ? — Certainly, when there is any pressure upon him. withdrew. Ml. o. a AngoviUe. Mr. 0. C. Angoville examined. 864. {Lord Devon.) You are engaged in instruct- ing the school in French ? — Yes. 865. How long have you been so engaged ? — ■ Eighteen years. 866. Will you be kind enough to give the Commis- sioners some notion of the system you pursue. You have the whole of the school under your charge ? — Not the whole. When I came there were two masters, but for the last ten years I have had the whole school. This last quarter, however, we have had an assistant master. 867. How many forms aro under you ? — Seven classes. 868. Seven classes iu French ? — Yes. I teach each class twice a week. 869. Seven classes of your own ? — Yes. 870. Then your arrangement does not follow the school classification for other purposes. You make a classification of your own ? — Yes. 871. How many hours a week do you devote to those classes ? — Three-quarters of an hour to each class twice a week. 872. Will you give us a statement of what you do with each of those classes ? — We read aloud in French, and afterwards translate, according to the form, sometimes " Molierc," or " Gil Bias," or " Se- daine," or " Berquin," or " Recueil Choisi." The Sixth Book take down and translate the lessons from dictation. I do not dictate to the junior classes; they learn lessons by heart, grammar and vocabulary. 873. The boys translate to you orally, I suppose ? — ^Yes. 874. Is that word by word, or sentence by sen- tence ?_Word by word for the junior classes ; the others translate free y into English. 875. Do they transhafe back again from English into French ?— Yes. This will show you what they have done this lialf. ( Witness produces a small pamphlet entitled, " Winchester — French Examina- tion, 1862.") Those are the seven classes. This is what they have done this half year ; and this is what I want them to prepare for the examination. 876. Do they practise repetition ? — Yes. 877. Do they learn by heart ? — Yes, every day. 878. Verse or prose ? — Prose. I prefer prose for boys ; prose is the spoken language. 879. In speaking to the boys, while you are teach- ing, do you generally speak in French ? — Only to the Sixth Book. 880. {Lord Lyttelton.) Do they talk French to you ? — Yes. 881. Do they talk it pretty well ? — I cannot say "pretty well." 882. {Mr. Thompson.) Have you any boys in the school who speak reasonably well, with a good accent ? — Yes, three or four. There are more in the school who talk, but their talking is not so good as that of those. 883. {Lord Devon.) Have you ever established any convers.atiou classes ? — Not in the college. 884. {3Ir. Vaughan.) How many hours a week has each l)oy in French ? — An hour and a half each class. I go for three-quarters of an hour twice a week to each class. 885. The lesson is always prepared before ? — Yes. 886. How long do you consider a three-quarters of an hour lesson takes a boy to prepare properly ? — It ought to take one hour, at least. 887. Do you give a lesson often such as would take them an hour to prepare ? — Yes, at least an hour ; it takes alwfiys a full hour to do it. I take the exercises home with me, and correct them at home. I have only 107 boys now. 888. What grammar do you make the basis of your PUBLIC SCHOOLS COMMISSION : — MINUTES OP EVIDENCE. SG3 teaching? — My own grammar, which has been approved by the colleges in France. 889. {Lord Lyltelioii.) Taking a boy in the upper part of the school, does he get about two hours of French teaching in a week ? — No, three-quarters of an hour twice a week. If a boy works properly, his lessons would take him three hours and a half. What I give him requires at least one hour to pre- pare before I arrive. 890. lie would get upwards of three hours in the week ? — He ought to have that. Some bo3's in the fifth book are doing well. I could show you some French pl.ays which they have translated freely. 891. {Mr. Vaughan.) Which is the most difficult book you read to translate ? — Those French plays, perhaps. 892. Moliere ? — Yes ; and some of C. Delavigne, Roraaud, and Sedaine. 893. {Lord Lyttelton.) What is the size of each class ? — About 22 or 24 boys. The new master takes 70. 894. {LordDevon.) You have an assistant French master ? — Yes ; Monsieur Du Domaiue. He comes twice a week. 893. {Mr. Thompson.') You reside in Winchester ? — Yes. 896. The other gentleman comes from Southamp- ton ? — Yes. 897. Does he take the junior part ? — Yes. 898. Is he a Frenchman ? — Yes. 899. {Lord Devon.) Though the power of speaking French is not often acquired by boys here, as regards grammatical knowledge and the power of translating, are you satisfied with the progress your upper boys have made ? — Yes ; I would defy anybody to find them make a mistake in any verb. 900. {Mr. Vaughan.) In the irregular verbs ? Have you any boys who are perfectly masters of the irregular .and defective verbs ? — Yes. 901. {Lord Devon.) Do you think that they could write a perfectly grammatical letter ? — Not exactly grammatical ; but give them a subject, what you call a theme, and they would write it. 902. They would «Tite reasonably good French ? —Certainly. 903. Have j'ou any difficulty in preserving order in your classes ? — Some time ago I had, but not now. The witness 904. Have you any difficulty now ? — Not so much WINCiiksteb, now as I had 10 years ago. 905. {Mr. Thompson.) Do the boys behave better now ? — Much better. Mr. O. C. Angovillc. 906. {Lord Devon.) If you appeal to the good 30 May 18fi2. feeling of the boys, do you generally find they ■ respond ? — Yes ; they are very well now, in com parison. 907. {Lord Lyttelton.) What are your powers of punishing. You give impositions ? — Yes ; not only I give impositions, but we have three books which we send into the Head Master, and a fourth book into the Second master, and he gives another impo- sition, according to our report. There is Mr. Wick- ham's book. You will see Mr. Wickham crosses them when they are bad ; he gives them another imposition. 908. {Mr. Thompson.) Do you think the study of French has advanced in Winchester school since 10 years ago ? — I think so. 909. Do you think the boys are better behaved than they were then ? — Yes, or than they were five years ago. 910. You think they are better than they used to be ? — Certainly. 911. {L.ord L.yttelton.) With regard to their pro- nunciation being good, do boys who leave the school pronounce well ? — Yes. 912. A great number ? — Yes ; most of them. 913. And could translate a common French book into English fairly well ? — Yes. 914. I thought you said just now they did not pro- nounce pretty well ? — No ; the question has not been put to me. 915. How does your assistant find them with regard to their knowledge or pronunciation of French when they first come to the school ? — That depends upon whether they have learnt it. Some come without any knowledge of French whatever. 916. Do you find a great number of boys on arriving are able to pronounce French well ? — No ; many have not learnt it at all, so that it is very difficult to put them in a proper class. 917. You would be glad if more time could be given to French ? — Yes. 918. But with the time allowed you are satisfied with the system as it is here ' — Yes. withdrew. The Rev. Godfrey B. Lee 919. {Lord Devon.) Will you allow me to call your attention to a point which has been raised by the writer of a letter which appeared in the " Times " newspaper, dated 7th May 1861. It refers to the Winchester College scholarships. It quotes an an- nouncement which had been made on the 6th of May, in the " Times," as to the period when the annual elections of scholars is to take place place, viz., in the second week after the then following 15th of July. The gentleman who ^vrites that letter, says that the notice is exceedingly inadequate in respect of the information which it gives, and that you might give a more full and detailed notice which would find its v/ay to parties in various parts of England, so as to make it unnecessary for them to apply to the Warden for further information ? — Of course it would be impossible to give any information which would save people the trouble of doing that. There must be correspondence on the subject. 920. Does it strike'you that it would be practicable in such a notice to give more full information respecting the subjects of examination, and other particulars ? — Yes, certainly. I think you have seen a circular which Mr. Walford sends round, that supplemental circular was drawn up by him at my suggestion two or three years ago. I said " You will have a good " many applications ; you had better prepare a cir- " cular which will give more precise information." 921. I have not that circular before me now ; does M.A., further examined. it state the number of vacancies ? — No, for this reason — we are not yet able, and shall not be until we get fairly into the new groove, to state the number of vacancies. At an election for prospective vacancies it is impossible to state the number. For instance last year we had 108 candidates for college, 98 came to examination, and up to this moment there have only been 8 boys admitted ; and there will probably be no more until the next election. Since the college has been thrown open to general competition, the average number of candidates has been 100 ; so that we h.ave had no lack of candidates. The notice is sufficient, I believe, for those who are really concerned in the matter to avail themselves of it. I believe the writer of the letter is mistaken in supposing they do not know all about the election. He says we do not make the advantages of the scholarships sufficiently known, and that in consequence we suffijr from a lack of candidates ; which is certainly not the case. Of course if we were to do all he suggests, and we were to have a larger number of candidates, 200 instead of 100, we should be obliged to keep the whole number up here with their parents, or guardians, or school- masters, whichever they might be, probably a whole week instead of two days. Now we are enabled to release those whose case is hopeless very soon ; which saves poor clergymen and others the expense of living here at hotels or in lodgings ; for they leave instantly. If we kept them a week the number of vacancies Zz 2 Rev. G. B. Lee. 864 PUBLIC SCHOOLS COMiUSSION : —MINUTES OF E^^DE^^CE. Mci: G. B. Lee. 30 May 1862. WINCHESTER, would iiot be more, ami the number of disappointed people would be greater. Still we are quite prepared to act upon any suggestion you may be pleased to make. 922. ^yould tliere be any objection to inserting the limit of age ? — No. 923. Or tlie subjects of examination ? — No^ 924. And the value of the Bcbolarsliips ? — That is rather difficult. In the case of university scholar- ships nothing is more easy tham to state the value in the briefest way possible ; but here so many little things come in it is almost impossible to name the Bum. You cannot say they are worth so much a year, as you cau with the university scliolarships. 92o. They say for iustance luider the head " uni- versities " in the newspapers, •" eight scholarships at " Lincoln college, value such a sum, tenable by natives " of such counties ; candidates must be of such and " such an age :'' — would there be any difficulty iu making such an announcement, except as regards the number of scholarships, here ? — As I said before the aidvantnges are made up of so many different things, board, lodging, and education, it would be difficult to name the sum. In the university scholarships you say at once " .they will be 60/. a yea*- " Mid so on. That is all the inlbrmation you have as to university Bchohirships. Here there are so many other things. ,926. {Mr.. ThompsoH.) Could not you say "the " advantages are so great that the .yearly bills of " Winchester scholars do not amount to more than " .30/." ? — Yes, we might give that kind of infor- mation. 927. Do you think that if the public at large knew Tphat a good thing it was it would deter inapt can- didates from contending ? — I did write a notice touching upon that point tliis year, but was per- suaded not to publish it. Last year there was a similiu- letter in the " Times " to which the writer refers, and it produced an immense quantity of cor- respondence from all sorts of people, but none who would wish to avail themselves of this foundation ; who were of a diffi'rent class .of life altogether, and who found on application the education was what they neither wished nor contemplated at all. .928. {Lord Devo7i.) Ifthe heads of the examination were somewhat more fully stated it would probably render a correepondeuce less necesaary ? — Certainly. There was something I said yesterday about exhi- bitions I thiuk may possibly lead you into a mistake. Lord Clarendon asked whether any boy ever had an exhibition without having been previously examined, and I said no. That is not strictly true, for some- times boys have had an exhibition given them when they have been good boys, when they have not been good enough for a scholarship, and have left before the examination for New College. It has not often occumed, but there have been such cases. I think there is one upon the list now. His name will go off this year. 929. {BIr. Vaughan.) Can he get a scholarship afterwards ? — No ; he will never get anything more. Ilis father is poor. He has an exhibition. 930. {Lord Devon.) It appears that in the original scheme of the Commissioners for issuing new ordi- nances for Winchester, it was proposed that three of these college fellowships should be dealt with with special reference to the excellence of candidates in one or more of the physical sciences, and that the three fellows elected to tliose fellowships should be bound to give lectures to the schoolboys "in that department of knowledge ; that sclieme was brouglit under the notice of the Warden and Fellows here, and did not meet with their approval ; in consequence of that the Commissioners suggested another scheme of au ordinance for Winchester college, and in commu- nicating with flic Warden on that subject they request to be iulbrnied by what means the Warden and Fellows would propose to secure competent instruction in the physical sciences, as the scheme which the Commis- sioners themselves had proposed was not accepted ? And in answer to that letter the Warden replied by a Ictttr dated Winchester, December 1856, in .which" he stated their readiness to engage from time to time the best lectur.ers of the day in the various branches of such science, who should come to AVinchester and give four successive courses of lectures ; and he stated the reasons why they thought that course a better one tliau the course suggested by the Commis- sioners. The Commissioners acceded to that, and ended their letter by saying " in reliance on the Col- " lege acting on this system, or on a system equally " I'tlieient, they abstain from pressing their former " propositions in reference to this subject." Now, I believe at jn'csent, in consequence of these communi- cations, what has been done is that each year a lecturer, in some branch of plwsical science, has been engaged to come down and deliver a certain number of lectures ? — Yes. 931. At which, as we understand from Dr. Mober- ley, all the boys in the school are expected to attend ? —Yes. 932. But it appears those lectures amount to only 12 in the course of the year ? — I think 10, after the Easter holidays. 933. That being the case it lias struck us rather forcibly that so small a number of lectures is hardly an adequate fulfilment of the intention entertained both by the Warden and Fellows and the Commis- sioners to give hoiiajide iustructiou in physical science. Will you tell us what you think about it ? What are your views on the subject ? There are lectures only for a .small portion of the year ; thei'e are few lectures then ; and there are, in truth, neither examinations nor prizes ? — No, we should have another course in the short half-year. It appears to me we have no time for them in the long half year before Easter ; but we should have one iu tlie short half-year. 934. When is the short half year ? — From the be- ginning of September until Clu-istmas. 9«35. {Mr. Vaughan.) How many weeks is the other half year you speak of? — It used to be very nearly 23 weeks before it was divided. Now there is an Jiaster holiday. S36. In one of the terms you think it would not be advisable ? — I meant in the Lent term. 937. How long is that ? — That depends upon Easter. 938. {Lord Devon.) You see noobjection to having other lectures delivered in one of the other terms ? — No. 939. What would be your view as to instituting examinations for certain classes, and stimulating the study by prizes ? — It would lead to the boys attending the lectures a little more eagerly. 940. Do not you think those things attending the courses would give a more effectual operation to tlie system ? — Yes, I think so. 941. {Mr. Titompson.) In fact, you have no objec- tion to the system being considerably extended, pro* vided it met with the approbation of the Head Mas- ter ? — No, I have no objection whatever. 942. What is at present the expense of what is done by the College ? — The lecturer has lOO guineas for his course. 943. {T^ord Lyttclton.) An extension would be an increase of expense pro tanto ? — Yes. 944. And the College are able to do that without inconvenience ? — As the four fellowships fall in wc are to do certain things, and of course we shall have more means at our disjiosal. 945. {Mr. Vaughan.) In fact, was not this proposal a sub.9fitution for the p-roi30sal to devote three fellow- ships to this object ? — Yes. 946. And the .amount of tliose'three fellowships, I suppose, would come to something neai" 2,000/. a year ? —No. 947. .-£1,500 a year ?— Yes. 948. {Lord Devon.) Were you one of the Fellows at the time of this proposal ? — No. 949. {Mr. Vaughan.) So that, supposing you had to give 300/. a year for three courses of lectures, one for each term, it would still be only one-fifth part of what would fall in ? — Yes.- PUBLIC SCHOOLS COMMISSION: — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. bC5 950. (Lord Lt/ttclton.) Th.it was the original pro- posal that was iiiad(> ? — .So I am informed now. 9ol. Were you .icquainted with this correspon- dence ? — No, I had nothing to do with it ; I have never seen it even. 952. (3Ir. VatigJian.) Supposing the Warden and Fellows were willing tomalie a change of this descrip- tion, should you anticipate any difficulty on tlie part of the Head Master. Uo you think he would at all object ? — I do not see any difficulty whatever ; I think we are all disposed to make the system, if pos- sible, wliat I may call more elastic. I cannot antici- pate any difficultj'. 953. (Lord Lyttelton.) The W.wden and Fellows would not do it contrary to the opinion of tlie Head Master ? — No ; I do not think they would like to go counter to the opinion of the Head Master. 954. {Mr. J'auffhan.) If .an examination, making it a tiiorough examination, WM'e to be supposed to trench too much on the time of the boys in any half year, do you think it would bo practicable to Eiake any arraugcanesit for the: scholars by which they could substitute that for some other part of the work ? — You mean liy the scholars the whole school, I pre- sume ? 955. I only speak to you of those immediately under your jurisdiction in college ? — We never sepa- rate the two in our own miuds. Of course the commoners at present get the a<:lvantage of these lectures. Tiiey do nst tare to pay for them. 956. Has there not recently been institut.ed by the Head Master an examination, which appears to si>c- ceed pretty well, iu subjects outlying, to a certain extent, the education of the school ; for instance, in Frencii and in history, which arc not taught in the school ? — He has lately done so. 957. Has that been acted upoa on one occasion ? — Yes. 958. Do not you think it would be practicable, if you establish an examination, to give the boys an option, if they should ajiprove of it, to substitute that examination in jjliysical science, for pai't of that other examination, or the whole of it ? — Yes, it jQight be done. 959. Do not you think, that would be a practical way of introducing it into the school? — Yes ; but the other is considered successful. It has not been tried very long. It would be a pity to do away with the other. 960. Do you think there .are no pcirts of the other examination which stand so far in the same rela- tion to the school teaching with physical science that you could substitute one for the other. Do you think it would be too great a sacrifice to substitute it for modern history or modern languages ? — I think it would be bad for modern languages or modern history to get rid of either. I would rather add this than substitute it. 961. You think then it might be added ? — I think so. 962. (3Ir. Thompsoji.) Have you .any idea whai; the feeling of the boys is with regard to these lec- tures. Do they take an interest in them ? — I think like all these things, when they are voluntary, there are some who do take an interest in tliem, though there .are a great number who would not pass a good examination. 963. Do they look forward to it with pleasure or repugnance ? — I think with pleasure. The lecturer we had last, we had for the third time, and the manner in which he was greeted when he came was vci'y striking. 964. The boys cheered him ? — Yes. He gave us a very good lecture, very energetic, full of life and animation. He is lecturer at St. George's Hospital. We had another good lecturer, Dr. Odling, a very good man indeed. We had another they did not take to very much, a geological lecturer ; lie was the heaviest of the three ; and he was not so well- educated a man. 965. (3/r. Vaughan.) May 1 ask whether you have so May 18G2. ever- conferred on the occasion of the visits of those WINCHKSTER. gentlemen to the school, on the propriety or prac- „ TT^ tic.ability of an examination ?_ No, I never have, "^"•^■^Lcc certainly. 966. {Loi'd Devon.) With regard to the stale of the college, ae respects buildings, and with reference to health, are you satisfied with its present st.ate ? I can- not say I am entirely satisfied. There has hardly been a week since I have been here that we have not been talking about improvements. T Iiave been conferring with Mr. Kawlinson, an eminent engineer employed by the Board of Health. That was on my having recommended that some practical man should be asked to come down to give us estimates. 967. I was going to ask whether you think that the inhabitants of the town are doing anything for Win- chester in tliis respect ? — I do not think tliey are. Last autumn IMr. Kodied in that answer 15. Do I under- stand the sole qualifications now for scholai-ships are to be under 14, and not to be of that degree of wealth which in the opinion of the electors would disqualify for a scholarship ? — Tlicy must be baptised members of the Church of England. 977. Is there no qualification as to health ? — No. 978. Or moral conduct ? — Yes ; they must have testimonials of moral conduct. By clause 12 of the Oi-di nance "no pereon shall be ineligible by reason of " his having any bodily imperfection which might " operate as a disqualification for holy orders," and so on. 979. There is no such disqualification now ? — No. 980. In this part of the Ordinance, those are the actual qualifications ; they shall be not too rich and 14 years of age ? — Yes. 981. {Mr. Vuieghmi.) I think poverty has been a qualification ? — The Commissioners gave us a certain discretionary power about that. 982. Have you ever rejected a candidate on the ground of his not being a fit object by reason of wealth ? — ^Never. 983. {Lord Li/Uelfon.) You are required to do so apparently : " The electors may I'efuse to admit as a " candidate any one whom they may deem to be not " in need of a scholarship" ? — There is a column for persons to state any circumstances which may entitle them to more conside,ration than others. Of course if a man has a large family and a small income he takes care to put it down in that column ; but if he is pretty well off' he takes care to say nothing about it. 984. A peer's son would not be eligible ? — I should think so. 985. {3Ir. Vauffhati.) Should you consider that a younger son of a country gentleman, with a landed estate, was one of those who was disqualified ? — No ; I should say not a younger son. Certainly I must say if we are to take wealth into consideration I think there is no one so poor as a poor gentleman. I am "the son of a poor gentleman, and I could not have gone to the university unless I had had a scholar- ship given to me at this college. 986. If the candidates, in the opinion of the elec- tors, are not disqualified on t)ie ground of wealth, when j'ou come to elect to the scholarship, do you decide between diflferent degrees of wealth ? — The admission of a boy to come as a candidate rests practically with myself and Dr. Moberly. The other electors come from Oxford ; the papers are sent in previously, so that unless it is a very gross case it is very awkward to reject after that. 987. You still allow the question of wealth to in- fluence the adjudication of the scholarships after they have been admitted as proper candidates ? — Yes ; it would be very difficult to reject them as candidates. 088. {Lord Lyttellon.) Have you ever acted on the ceteris paribus principle ? — No ; it has never come to that. The consequence is we get more intel- ligeut boys. With respect to pecuniary circum- stances, we have applications fiom retired tradesmen, i. e. men who have made their money in trade and retired. I very much doubt whether a poor gentle- man is not very much poorer than a retired trades- man. 989. {Mr. Vaughan.') I only wish to know whether pecuniary circumstances are an element for considera- tion in the election to scholarships after they have been admitted as candidates ? — I have only been present at one election. I should say not, so far as I know. 990. The expressions used in the ordinance are, " Those candidates shall be elected who after such " examination shall appear to the electors to be most " proficient and most fit to be scholars of the college." Independent of the question of wealth, have the most proficient been always considered the most fit ? — I have no doubt they have invariably ; I have never heard anything to the contrary. 991. Do you know why a stronger diet is pro- vided for the senior boys than the junior boys in college ? — No ; except I fancy from a notion that persons of that age require rather more meat. A medical man will tell you a little boy does not require meat more than once a day. 992. Is it upon a medical opinion? — No ; I do not think any medical man has been consulted. A mau never thinks of giving a little child meat for break- fast ; yet perhaps he eats it himself. 993. The question about commoners' diet does not come under your consideration ? — No. 994. As a matter of fact do you know that the diet in college is different from commoners' diet ? — I am not sure whether they have not some cold meat at supper. 995. {Lord Li/tteltcm.) Do I understand, with re- gard to the chapel sermon, it is practically a matter in your discretion who is to preach ? — Yes ; I con- sider so. 996. You say (24) "There are no i-egulations in " force by law relating to the preaching of sermons " in the college chapel." — " It seems very desirable " that it should be considered the duty of every " master to address the boys from time to time." It is competent to yon to make such regulations ? — The masters are not likely to object ; I do not suppose I could compel the masters to come to the college to preach. A good many of the masters at Winchester are in holy orders. 997. Do they not do it ? — The only one who ever has preached is one of the chaplains. 998. Tlie masters in holy orders never have preached? — Yes, the two statutable masters con- stantly. 999. Have the others ever preached ? — No, I think not. 1000. Only the Head Master and the under master preach ? — Yes. The Fellows I have asked to preach when they have been here. The statutable masters, one of the chaplains, and occasionally one of the Fellows, have preached since I have been here. I think it is very desirable there should be a variety of preachers for a congregation like ours, which is a very difficult one to address. I feel that most keenly myself, never having been accustomed to such an audience ; and I think the more preachers you have for a congregation so highly critical the better. 1001. By the eighth section of the ordinance " the " provisions respecting the residence of Fellows and " scholars, and the mode of granting leave of absence " from the college, contained in the existing statutes," are declared to be void ; and " such regulations " respecting the residence of Fellows and scholars " within the college, and respecting the mode in which " and the conditions under which leave of absence " may be granted to any Fellow or scholar, as may be " expedient for the interests of the college as a place " of learning and education, shall be made with all " convenient speed by the Warden and Fellows." PUBLIC SCHOOLS C0M5IISSI0N :— MINirTES OF EVIDENCE. 367 In fact, no such now regulations have been made ? — No. 1002. Does the same answer apply to section 34 of of the ordinance, which appears to be precisely similar ? A number of other provisions are speci- fically made void ? — Those are as to the scholars. 1003. Particular provisions of the statutes are made void, and the Warden and Fellows are empowered to make fresh provisions on those subjects ? — Yes. I do not suppose we should be so particular with respect to drawing up formal regulations as to the dress aud recreations of the scholars. 1004. That might be deemed unnecessary ? — Yes. I believe the reason the late Warden did not do it at all was this : He used to say, " I think, " as we have this ordinance before us, it is perfectly " easy to govern our college without drawing up new " regulations ;" and he omitted to do so. lOOo. {Mr. Vaur//ia>i.) I understaud, from the mode in which you have explained the constitution of this college to us, that you consider the Warden and Fel- lows responsible for the subjects which are taught to the scholars ? — Oh, certainly. 1003. You consider the responsibility lies entirely •ft'ith you ? — I do, certainly. Of course the Visitor might interfere. 1007. But you are the responsible persons ? — I consider so, certainly. 1008. With reference to the Bedminster exhibitions, and the Superannuates Fund, is there anything you wish to add ?^If the Commissioners will allow me I will hand in this paper ; it contains an entry from a memorandum book of the late Warden Huntingfo'.-d, nnd an extract from memoranda compiled by Mr. Blackstone, one of the Fellows. The same was read as follows: — Bedjiinster ExniBiTioxs. Extract from a JIemorandum Book of the late Warden Huntingford (dated 1798). " Substance of Mr. Bohun Foxe's benefaction. Mr. Bohun Foxe (who died in 1750) left the estate at Bedminster to the warden, master, and usher (i.e., tinder master) in trust, to the intent that they should pay two exhibitions of 20/. to two superannuates who should not have succeeded to New College. If after the payment of two superannuates there should remain any surplus, such surplus is to be applied either to augmenting the number of exhibitions to the super- annuates, or else for the benefit of clergymen's sons on the foundation of Winchester College ; thus the matter stood originally. By a subsequent deed in 30 May 1862. 1778 the trustees are empowered to increase cither WINCHESTEB, the nwnber or the value of exhibitions, at such time when they shall have received the whole of Bed- Jiev.G.B.Lce. minster estate free from the annuity payable to Mrg Blagden (late Miss Hawkins)." Extract from Memoranda compiled by Eev. C. Blackstone, formerly Fellow of Winchester College, from authentic Records. " Dr. John Burton, in conjunction with Bohun Foxe, gave a moiety of the prebend and parsonage of Bedminster, belonging to the cathedral church of Sarum, and the prebend and parsonage of Bedminster and KedclilFe, with all appurtenances in the city of Bristol, in reversion after the deaths of the said Bohun Foxe and his wife, and the death of the said John Burton. The design is to provide exhibitions in one of the universities for superannuated scholars of Win- chester College who could not succeed to New College. The residue of the said rents and profits of the moiety of the said prebends to be disposed of to any other superannuates of Winchester College at the discretion of the trustees." It will be remembered that the Bedminster estate is not freehold, but copyhold, on two old lives which the Ecclesiastical Commissioners will not renew ; on the expiration of those lives the estate falls in to the Commissioners as stated in my answer to question 2, part I. (statement A, page 7.) Tnis is an Extract from the same Book compiled by the Rev. C. Blackstone. " Superannuates' Fund, instituted 1729. — This truly laudable establishment was first set on foot by John Dobson, D.D., Warden of Winchester College, and Christopher Eyre, usher of the said college. The principle of it will appear from the preamble to the first subscription, which is as follows : " Whereas the benefit of succession to New College in Oxford (ample as it is) cannot in its own nature be sulficient to provide for all the scholars who have been educated in the College of Winchester, and as it may be reasonably hoped that a greater number of deserv- ing boys will be always found in Winchester College than can be received into New College ; therefore as well for the farther encour.agement of the studies and good behaviour of the children in general, as for the better support and maintenance in the University of such in particular, who shall be thought most to need and best to deserve assistance, we, whose names are underwritten, do subscribe and promise to contribute yearly the sums set agaiust our respective names." (Then follows a long list of subscribers.) Victoria Street, Monday, 15tli December 1862. present J Hon. Edward Twisleton. H. Halford Vaughan, Esq. Eaki- or Clarendon, Lord Ltttelton. Sir Stafford Northcote, B.uit. The earl OF CLARENDON ln the Chair. W, A. Fearon, Esq., called in and examined. 1009. {Lord Clarendon.') I believe you were at Winchester College ? — Yes. 1010. You were on the foundation ? — Yes. 1011. How many years were you there? — Seven and a half years. 1012. When did you leave ? — Three and a half years ago. 1013. You are now at New College, Oxford ? — Yes. 1014. You went from Winchester to New College ? — Yes ; I was elected scholar from Winchester. 1015. {Mr. Twisleton.) I believe you were one of the first elected under the new system ? — Yes, I was actually the first. 1016. That is a system by which the scholarships are tenable for five years only ? — Yes, 1017. Was founder's "kinsliip O'bolished wLen you were elected ? — Yes. The main difference is that we do not succeed to a fellowship. 1018. Had you gained prizes at Winchester ?— Yes. 1019. What prizes did you gain ? — The Goddard and the Duncan scholarships, two gold medals, and three Maltby prizes. 1020. {Lord Clarendon.) How long have you been at New College ? — Three and a half years. I came up last October three years. 1021. Will you have the goodness to tell us what was the relation of the collegers to the other boys at Winchester. Was there perfect equality ? — Yes. There was a good deal of rivalry between them ia Zz4 TV. A. Fearon, Esq. 15 Dec. 1862. 368 PUBLIC SCHOOLS COJDIISSION ;— MINUTES OF E\'IDEXC'E. WINCHESTER, games and that sort of thing. They used to have matches every year, but they used to mix quite freely TV. A. Fearon, , ,, «-„. togetlier. 1022. The social status was quite that of equality .'' —Yes. ^ ,. 1023. There was nothing of the Eton feehng there? No; certainly one was not considered superior to the other. 1024. There was no social rivalry ? — No. 1025. {Lord Lyttclton.) Was it considered that the hoys on the foundation as a class were in poorer circumstances than the others ? — No, and I do not think as a matter of fad. that they Avere so. 1026. {Lord Clarendon.) They wear a gown ? — Yes. 1027. And that was not disliked by the collegers ? Xo. It was found awkward sometimes, but it was not disliked as a badge. 1028. And on that account there was no desire to get rid of it ?— No. 1029. {Lord T^ijttcltou.) Were they looked upon as a more distinguished class. Do you think it was reckoned a sort of privilege to be on the foundation ? I think the only difference was that those in rushwood or other wood, which we had to untie and divide into two lots. 1735. H.ad you no coals ? — No. 1736. {Mr. Vatighan.) Did your allowance vary with the length of the d.aylight ? — No ; this winter they allowed us four faggots ; generally there are only three — last winter there were only three. 1737. In fact, that would provide for about an hour and a half s fire altogether for the night and morn- ing ? — Yes ; we are supposed to have wood on twice in the course of the evening, and then while we are iu bed the prefects have some on, and then iu the morn- ing to warm their water with ; but we are supposed to have the benefit of it — we can go to it if we like. 1738. Do you suppose that those who were sitting at their work in the winter felt cold at all ? — No ; I think not tliis winter. 1739. But suppose the winter to be a tolerably severe winter, in February, for instance, and Novem- ber, and the end of January, do the boys feel starved ? r — If they did they would ask to have some wood on, and the prefects would give leave. 1740. But this wood may be exhausted. They cannot have it for more than a certain length of time during the whole evening ? No. 1741. {Mr. Thompson.) In a hard winter would more faggots be allowed ? — I should thipk so. 1 742. I mean by the school authorities ? — I sLbul J think so. 1743. {3Ir. Ticisleton.) As a matter 'of fact, have you felt disagreeably cold ? — I have not. 1744. {Mr. Vaughan.) But then you were moving about, .attending on the other boys, which would help to keep you warm ? — Yes ; I hiive not heard of any others feeling so ; but if they did they asked the prC' feet, and he let them stand by the fire. 1745. When the fire was lighted ? — Yes. 1746. How long are you altogether in that room in a winter's evening ; how many hours before you go to bed ?. — From half-past six till a quarter to nine, and then we go out for prayers, and then we go to bed between nine and a quarter-past, or we were supposed to. 1747. {Mr. TJiompson.) Prefects and all? — Pre- fects s.at up generally. 1748. {Mr. Vaughan.') Are you locked in those rooms ? — There is a key to the door. We have to Jock it at a quarter-past nine ; then when the master comes round he sees that everything is right. He generally comes round between nine and ten. 1749. But between six jind half-past and the chapel time, have you freedom to go anywhere about the college ? — More than two may not be out of the chamber at a time ; they must put up rolls to the pi'efect, 1750. More than two juniors ?— Yes. 1751. {Sir S. Northcote.) How do yon mean "may not," Is that a rule of the boys ? — If the master came round during that time and found more thatj two were out, they might get blamed for it. 1752. It is a rule of the master's ? — It is a rule of the college. 1753. {Mr. Vaughan.) Are those two supposed to be out with messages ? — Yes ; or else doing something for themselves, 1754. I suppose the prefects are allowed to be out ? — I do not think they are ; at all events there must be one prefect iu chamber. 1755. I do not know whether you have been long enough in the school to be able to say whether the theory of the thing is, that all are confined to that particular room during the time you have mentioned, but that on account of the possibility of their being sent on messages two juniors are allowed to be out ? — Two are allowed to be out at a time. No fixed two, but any two. Perhaps it may be only one. One of the prefects may go and do his work with some other prefect, provided there be one prefect left in chamber ; or if they both go out, they must have one from some other chamber to keep the cliamber. 1756. {Mr. Ttvisleton.) The rule is, that one prefect must be iu every chamber at night ?^TT-Yes, 1757. {3Jr. Vaughan.) Have you any personal service to do to the boys, such as brushing their clothes ?-^No. 1758. Has any boy ? — The valets generally brush their clothes in the morning. Some do, and others do not require it. On Sunday morning they generally have their hats brushed. 1759. {Lord Lyttelton.) Tlie general fag may not also be a valet ? — No. 1760. {Mr. Vaughan.) I understand a man comes round to call you in the morning ? — Yes. 1761. How does he avoid calling the prefects at the same time ? — If they wake they must, that is all. He raps on the door with the iron handle, and that wakes the junior; but if the prefects wake that can- not be helped. 1762. {Mr. Twisleton.) I suppose the other boys know it does not concern them ? — Yes. 1763. {Mr. Vaughan.) The noise would be suffi- cient of itself to wake the prefect ? — Yes, unless he is accustomed to it. 1764. He is accustomed to neglect it ? — Y''es. 1765. {Mr. Twisleton.) It would be like an alarum to one of the prefects who was not in the habit of attending to it ? — Yes, 1766. {Mr. Vaughan.) Was it at six in the morning ?-— Yes, PUBLIC SCHOOLS COMinSSION : — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 885 1767. How soon after tliat tlul you call tlu'in ? — At about a quarter-past, and tlieu at about hall'-iiast. 1768. The bell begau to ring — when? — At a quarter to seveu. 1768. And it was then, generally, that tlie prefect got up ? — He gets up about twenty minutes to seven, generally. 1770. {Lord Li/ttcltoii.) Wlicn docs chapel begin ? — It begins at seven o'clock, nominally. 1771. {Jlr. Thompson.) There is nothing done before chapel ? — No. 1772. {Lord Lyilclfoii.) Except tliis hour and a quarter in tlie evening, you have no other time in the day to yourself? — No, except school time. 1773. {Mr. l'(tiif/hai>.) You have given us an account of six and a half hours in the school. How mucli of that time was sui)posed to be spent in pre- paration, and how much in saying lessons? — About half in preparation. 1774. Did you generally find that it took you about as much time to prepare the lesson as it took the form to say the lesson when it was up ? — No ; I generally found I could prepare more than was said. 1775. You had more tlian sufficient time to prepare j'our lessons ? — Yes ; I do not know whether it was the case witli all. I found it so. 1776. Could you or could you not speak as to what others felt on the subject ? — I think that they found it only just enough. 1777. {Lord Li/ttelfo/i.) Supposing you wanted to write a letter home ou the week day, what time of day would you write it ? — In school time. 1778. You were allowed to write it in school time ? — I do not know that the master would like it, if he saw it. 1779. You might bring in your pnper and write it ? — Yes ; you have your desk in school. 1780. Ou Sunday, could the lower boys walk about together if they had a mind ? — Yes, Ijetween twelve and one, and between two and three, and were allowed to go out in bounds. 1781. In the week day they had no time for that ? — No ; they might go out between twelve and one ; but only prefects and caudle-keepers do. The rest dare not go out. 1782. {Sir S. JSort/icoie.) Is fagging in college thought harder than among the commoners ? — I do not know anything about it. 1783. {Mr. ]'niighan.) Witli regard to the time in the evening. What were you preparing, if you had these six hours in school, and half of that time was given to preparation and half to saying. What were you pi-eparing in the evening hour ? — Com- position. 1784. Were you preparing also for the first lesson in the morning ? — No ; we never did anything Init composition at night, generally. 1785. Was the evening hour generally sufficient for you to prepare your whole composition for the whole week ? — Yes, gener.ally. If it was not, I generally look some out of my other school time which Iliad over. 1786. {Sir S. Northcote.) Do boys often get punished for not fagging, or for failures in fagging ? — They never get hurt much ; they only get their ears boxed, generally. Prefects have any power. 1787. For what sort of offence are they punished ? — For not obeying them. 1788. {Mr. Vaughan.) About the basins. What had you to do with the basins that you were speaking of? — You liave to take them from the shelf and fill them with water, and put them on the prefect's washing stool for him to use, and in the evening you liave to put them on the shelf again. 1789. Had you to wipe them? — Yes, and to empty them. 1 790. ( Mr. Thompson.) Where did you empty them ? — We had conduits in tlie room. 1791. In fact, a sort of sink? — Yes, where the inferiors wash. 1792. {Mr. Vaughan.) Were the rooms always sweet ? — Yes ; the men did that after we had left. 1. 179.3. Were those sinks .ilways sweet ? — Yes. 1794. You felt no annoyance from them ? — No. 1795. You say that besides being general fag to the chamber, you were special fog to one of the pre- fects. What were your duties as special fag ? — Merely to perform anything he might require at his meals. 1796. Was that in your own chamber ? — No ; to any prefect who might choose you. 1797. Is it the case, that each prefect has a sepa- rate fag ? — Yes ; each prefect has one or two. 1798. How do they arrange that. Do they choose them ? — Yes ; on the first week of the half-year there is a roll made out of them. 1799. They choose them without reference to whether they are in their chamber or not ? — Yes. 1800. If a prefect wants the services of a special fag at the time w-hen the boys are in chamber, can he get at him ? — No ; he cannot use him for any- thing excejit in hall; he is called breakfast fag. 1801. What has he to do at breakfast ? — It is only at tea ; but, if he requu'es it, he toasts his bread and gets his tea ; or, if the prefect has a party with other prefects, he h.as to help to make toasted cheese, or something of that sort. 1802. {Lord Lytttlton.) Is he not the same as the valet ? — No ; he may be out of tlie prefect's chamber. 1803. How do they choose their special fags ? — They all come together to one chamber, and there is a special roll made out, and each chooses his own. 1804. In fact, it is only at tea that the special fag has anything to do ? — Yes. 1805. {Mr. Twisleton.) Between half-past six and half-past seven, when you are setting to rights and are not able to do anything, what are the other boys doing ? — If the prefect has a mess the valet has to prepare it and serve it, and if he has not, then the valet bus the time for his own leisure. 1806. What would the candle-keeper be doing ? — Anything he liked ; he need not be iu chambers during that time ; he might be in tiny other chamber besides his own. 1807. He is not confined to his own chamber. May he be running about the quadrangle ? — Yes, till half-past seven. 1808. It is, in fact, an hour of play ? — Yes. 1809. What do those who are not in chambers play at during that hour ? — I do not know ; nothing regular ; they walk about ; I do not think they play at anything. 1810. A studious boy may read, and an idle boy may do nothing ? — Yes, if he has nothing to do. 1811. So it is, in fact, an hour at the disposal of the junior ? — Yes. 1812. Will you explain more particularly all about the mess and the supper. Go through what you do in your own chamber first ? — I have to make it this half. I have only just begun. Tliere is generally coffee, or something of that sort, and bread and jam ; there is very seldom anything to cook, but you are expected to have it ready by seven o'clock ; it is served between seven and half-past, and at half-past they are supposed to have finished, and you have time for 3'onr work. 1813. But they have had tea at six, have they not ? — Yes ; that is between seven and half-past ; but some prefects do not have mess; then their valets have nothing to do. 1814. Is it usual for the prefects to require mess so soon after tea ? — Yes ; they ai-e only allowed that time to have it. Some prefects have it after chapel, after nine, and then their valets have to sit up and make it ; because, if they were caught, they would have an imposition or something. Some do, but they do not in my chamber. 1815. Does every boy have mess after his tea? — No ; all prefects do not. 1816. Some prefects want nothing more, and work in the evening, and go to bed without it ? — Yes. 1817. In each case the mess consists of coffee or tea ? — Coffee and tea and some drink. 3C WINCHESTER. .4 .Tunior in Winchester College. U Felj. 18G3. 386 PUBLIC SCHOOLS COMMISSION : — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. WINCHESTER. A Junior in Winchester College. UFeb. 1863. 1818. With jam? — Jam or honey, or anything thoy order in ; tliey can .scud out by men servants into the town for anything they require. 1819. Have tliey ever meat ? — No; they have never liad meat except it has been sent them from home. 1820. (Mr. Vaughan.) Is any part of mess pro- vided by the college ?— Nothing. 1821. {Mr. Twisleton.) The expense of mess is paid for by the prefects themselves ? — Yes. 1822. Do the other boys, who are not prefects, have mess — the candle-keepers, for instance ? — Yes, they might, if they have it vi'ith the prefects, but not \mless; he could not by himself, because he could not have a valet. 1823. Do tiie candle-keepers in your room have mess of an evening ? — No. 1824. Do the seniors in chambers ? — Yes, he does, because he has mess with the prefect of another chamber ; but nobody below senior in chamber may. 1825. Did you yourself have any mess after tea ? — You are allowed to have some of the remains, if you wish for it, when you have cleared away. 1826. As a matter of fVict, used you to have mess ? — No ; you might have what was left. 1827. You did have what was left, you did take something ? — Yes, generally. 1828. bid you feel the want of it. To satisfy your appetite did you want anything after tea ? — No, never, except w'len I had to make toast and had no time to eat anything in hall. 1829. {Mr. Vaughan.) Sometimes that happened ? — Yes. 1830. Would that often liapjien ? — -Not very often, about once in three weeks. 1831. But do you mean that the person for whom you made toast required less one evening than an- other ? — Perhaps he would not come up into hall ■till tea was nearly over, so that I should have to keep the toast hot. 1832. {Lord Lyttelton.) Did you sometimes lose your tea altogether in that way ? — Not altogether, I think, more than once. 1833. {Mr. Vaughan^ Sometimes you had less than you liked ? — Yes. 1834. {Mr. Thompson.) Had you butter as well as bread for tea ? — Yes, we had a regular allowance. 1835. {Mr. Twisleton.) And the tea of an evening was furnished by the college ? — Yes. 1836. In fact, if the prefects were supplied with toast in some other way, there need be no fagging for tea, any other than there is for breakfast ? — No ; they make parties for toasted cheese and fried pota- toes, and those who are the breakfast fags for the prefects in the party have to make it ; but I have never been one of those parties. 1837. They have that in the morning also ? — Onlv in the evening. 1838. {Lord Lyttelton.) Is there no fagging at ■breakfast at all ? — No. 1839. {Mr. Vaughan.) Did the fagging fall at all lighter on you, or was any favour shown to you because you had been so high in the examination ? — No ; there may be one reason why it was lighter, because I have a relation in college, at least a distant connection who is one of the prefects, but that is all. He has not taken any unfair share of it from me. 1840. I suppose the boys in the school knew you would come in head at your election ? — Yes. 1841. Do you think the senior boys would be in- clined to make the work lighter for you because they knew you distinguished yourself? — No; how much work you do is just in proportion to as many juniors as you have ; my juniors consist of those who got in this year. 1842. {Mr. Ttoisle/on.) What do you have for breakfast V — Bread and butter and tea. 1843. In the evening you are allowed bread and butter and tea ? — Yes. 1844. How is it that in the evening the prefects re- (iuire loast and do not require it in the morning? They do require it, but they have it made by the choristers. The choristers do not attend in the evening. 1845. If there was some provision or other in the evening similar to the provision in the morning, there would be no need of fagging at tea, would there ? I suppose not. 1846. {Lord Lyttelton.) How long were you general fag ; the whole of the school time ? — The whole of last half. I have only just begun to be valet. 1847. {Mr. Twisleton.) You use the expression "making preparation for whoever maybe having a bath." Is there a bath in each room ? — Yes ; all the boys take it in turns every night in the week. Every boy has it one night in the week ; and if tliere are more boys than nights in the week,, then one has the foot bath and the other a big bath. 1848. It is warm water, is it ? — Yes. 1849. {Sir S. Northcote.) With regard to punish- ment, is there any regular system of punishment ? Do you mean by the i)refects or by the school ? 1850. By the prefects ? — No. 1851. How are boys punished, do the prefects carry canes ? — No ; they generally box their ears if they do not do exactly what they have told them, or if they do not obey them at all perhaps they will give them cuts with a stick. 1852. {Lord Lyttelton:) They have sticks?— They can get sticks, but they do not carry them about. They get one out of the faggots. 1853. {Mr. Twisleton.) Did you often have a caning ? — Not often. 1854. How often?— I have only had it twice, I believe. 1855. A caning ? — Not a regular caning, only about five cuts. 1856. {Mr. Vaughan.) Five cuts at a time do you mean ? — Yes. 1857. {Mr. Thompson.) Across your arms and back or legs ? — Across my legs. 1858. {Mr. Ttvisleton.) What was that for?— Once I spilt a boiler, and once I went out of chambers without putting up a roll. 1859. {Lord Lyttelton.) What is that roll you put up ? — A certain piece of paper with words on it. 1860. (Mr. Twisleton.) Give the words? — You put your own name and " veniam exeundi petit." 1861. {Lord Lyttelton.) Where did you get that piece of paper ? — Anywhere ; you had to write it. 1862. Did you carry it about with you always ? — No ; that is only in chambers. 1863. {Mr. Twisleton.) Is that the roll— the slip of paper ?— Yes. 1864. Where did you put it up ? — On the prefect's washing stool. 1865. When you omitted to put it up had you for- gotten it ? — Yes. 1866. Had you your ears boxed during the half- year ? — I forget. I do not think so. I have seen it, that is all. 1867. {Mr. Vaughan.) Was that the first time you spilt the boiler ? — Yes ; I never spilt one before. 1868. {Mr. Twisleton.) How came you to spill the boiler ? — I knocked it over in putting some wood on the fire. 1869. So that the only corporal punishment you had as a junior was, that you were caned twice last half-year ? — Yes ; then I might be liable to it much more — some juniors are. 1870. You were in dread of it ? — Yes, I knew I might be. 1871. {Mr. Vaughan.) Have you ever seen a flog- ging administered in school ? — Yes, but not by the prefects. 1872. Which was the most severe, the kind of flogging which you got with a stick, or the flogging in school ? — I do not know ; I do not think there would be any difl'erence. 1873. {Mr. Ttvisleto7i.) Would you just as soon have the one as the other ? — Yes ; I have never been flogged in school, so I cannot tell. 1874. ( S. Northcote.) Were there any other PUBLIC SCHOOLS COMMISSION: — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 387 punishments besides caning and boxing the ears ? — No. 1875. {Lord Li/ttelton.) No punishment with any name to it ?— No. 1876. {Mr. Vatighnn.) Would a kick on the shins be thouglit improper ?— No ; they might do that if they chose ; they might invent any punishment — tliere is none fixed ; lliey liave full po^Yer to punisli in any way they think right. 1877. {Mr. Thompson.) Tliey may kick ? — Yes. 1878. Do they ever cut you across the liand ? — No. 1879. Do they ever take a cap and hit you on the back of the hand with the edge of it ? — No ; I Lave never seen it. 1880. {Sir S. Northcote.) Have you ever seen a boy much hurt with punishment ? — No. 1881. {Mr. Vaurihan.) Did you ever receive any protection from boys who had the power of fagging from otlier boys ? — No. 1882. They never had occasion to interfere, or never did interfere to protect you from any boys lower in the scliool ? — No ; tlie boys lower in the school cannot thrash you — only prefects. 1883. Tliey cannot legally ; but I wish to know whether a boy might not be tyrannical or unkind to you ? — ^He might. 1884. Would a prefect think liimself bound to in- terfere if a lower boy were to bully you ? — Some prefects might, but others might like it. 1885. How do you mean ? — They might think it was fun, they might be amused at it ; and some might think it was not right. 1886. {A Commissioner.) Some might think tliat the punishment was deserved ? — vSome miglU think that the boy had no business to do so, and would interfere ; but others would take amusement in it. 1887. {Mr. Fnr?/^/i««.) Do you mean that there was that sort of spirit in the school, and amongst the prefects, that you could not be quite sure that an act of bullying would be very much disapproved of by them ? — Yon could not be sure if you did not know wliat prefect it was, because some are good and others are the reverse. 1888. So that from tlie mere fact of a boy being a prefect you would not infer necessarily that he would interfere witli bullying, or that lie would like to do so ? — No, not with all of them. 1889. {Sir S. Northcote.) Supposing the prefect himself was a l)ully, do you think the other prefects would interfere to stop him at all ? — They could not prevent him. 1890. {Mr. Thompson.) Do the prefects ever act in common. Do they summon a boy before tliem who has been guilty of any oifence, and try him ? — Never since I have been there. 1891. They do not agree on a punishment in com- mon ? — No. 1892. {Mr. Vaughan.) Have you been kindly treated during the time you have been tliere, generally, by the boys ? — Yes. 1893. {Mr. Thompson.) Wereyou ever at any other school besides Winchester ? — No. 1894. You went from home ? — Yes. 1893. And you did not think it was very hard work at first ? — No ; I expected it would be harder. 1896. You had heard beforehand of fagging at a public school ? — I had read of it I suppose. I had not heard anything about it. 1897. You rather funked when you went ? — Yes. 1898. You found yoiy fears were unfounded to a great extent ? — Yes ; I found it different to what I had expected. I thought it would be fagging of a diffei'ent sort, tliat anyone might fag you. 1899. So that it is no very great hardship ? — No; I do not think so, the worst part is going down. 1900. {Mr. Twislelon.) What do you mean by that ? — At games. 1901. You make a distinction as to that being the worst, should you make any distinction between cricket and foot-ball ? — Yes. 1902. Which is the hardest ?— Cricket. We dislike cricket most. 1903. {Lord L.yttelton.) You say you expected you miglit be fagged by every one ; as I understand, all the prefects can fag every one in a certain sense ? — Yes. 1904. But they cannot fag at breakfast and at tea ? —No, they do not fag them at breakfast and dinner. 1905. But at tea ? — Only their own fiigs. 1906. {Sir S. Northcote.) Supposing a boy were to bully you, should you go to your own master and speak about it? — No, they never say anything about it. 1907. It is not the custom for the masters to look after their o>vn fags, and take care that they are not bullied by anybody else? — No, they do not. 1908. Is there any fighting in the school? No, there has never been any since I have been there, and there never is now — the prefects will not allow it. 1909. {Mr. Thompson.) Do they allow you to fight with the gloves. Do the prefects themselves ?— No; I have never seen it. 1910. Do they ever fight with single stick ? — I have not seen them, but I have seen single sticks about. 1911. Are they ever taught single stick or fencing? — No. There is a rifle corps. 1912. {Mr. Vaughan.) In factyou have never seen a stand-up fight since you have been at school? — No; I believe there .are fights in commoners, but we never have tliem in college. 1913. {Sir S. Northcote.) It is understood that it is not allowed ? — Yes. 1914. {Mr. Twisleton.) Even among the smaller boys ? — Yes. 1915. {Mr. Thompson.) Do you mix much with the commoners ? — No, we h.ave nothing to do with them except in school. 1916. Do they look down on you, or do you look down on them ? — I suppose it is mutual. 1917. {Mr. Twisleton.) Each looks down on the other, do you mean ? — Yes. 1918. {Lord Lyttclton.) Do you pLay games to- gether ? — Only matches against one another. We have dift(3rent playgrounds. 1919. {Mr. Twisleton.) When you go to Hills, do you not play together ? — No, we keejj separate. We go to Hills separately, and I do not think we ever play with them. 1920. Do you go to Hills at the same time ? — Yes ; but we never go with commoners on Hills. 1921. At the top of Hills is there a foot-ball match for college boys and for commoners separately ? — No, they walk all about unless they are told to fag for anything. 1922. Are no games played at the top of Hills now ? — There were last half, but there are not this half 1923. In these games, was there one set of games for college boys and another for commoners ? — No ; we never knew what the commoners had at all ; cora- moneis never were fagged on Hills. 1924. Did they not play games on Hills ? — I do not think so ; never with college boys, at all events. 1925. {Sir S. Northcote.) Do you know all the commoners by sight and by n.ame ? — Most of them. 1926. Do you know them to speak to ? — No ; I have never spoken to many of them. 1927. {3Ir. Twisleton.) Why should a college boy look down on a commoner ? — Because we think we are a cleverer set. 1928. (Mr. Vaughan.) How do the commoners feel towards the collegers. On what point can they ])iqne themselves above the collegers ? — Because in the matches they generally beat us ; they are double our number, and they have the stronger men. 1929. {Lord Lyttelton.) Does not the a-icket eleven consist of both ? — Yes, and they practise to- gether ; but I have not been there in cricket half 3'et. 1930. {Mr. Vaughan.) Are blows never struck in college by the boys ? — No, I have never seen any. 1931. {Mr. Thompson.) Except with the cane ? — Except by prefects. 3 C 2 WINCHESTER A Jumoi in Winchester College. 14 Feb. 1863. 388 PUBLIC SCHOOLS COMMISSION : —MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. WINCHESTER. A J It It tor in Wincfiexter College. U Feb. 18G3. 1932. (Mr. Twislcton.) When l)oy.s quarrel wliat do they do ? — They never fight, they call each other names. 1933. (jl/r. Thompson.) And chaff ? — Yes. 1934. Do they cut each other ? — No, but they might fight if a prefect was to set them on to it, not with- out ; there are very few who will do it. 1935. {Mr. Twislcton.) Among tlio.se who competed with you for college, were there many boys from com- moners ? — Yes, there were some. 1936. Do you kuow how many ?— I do not know at all. 1937. The system of fagging is diflTereut iu com- moners — a boy is fagged according to his place iu school, not according as he entered the school ? — Yes. 1938. If you, at present, were in commoners, you would have no fagging whatever ? — Not the least. 1939. You would be out of fagging ? — Yes. 1940. Have you any reason to believe that has or has not any influence in preventing boys in com- moners from standing for college ? — I do not kuow at alL I do not lliiidc so. I kuow boys are glad when they stay in commoners, and do not get into college ; at least they pretend to be, but I do not know whether tliey are. 1941. You have not heard any expression as to the effect of the system of faggiug being diflerent ? — No, except from the college boys wishing it was the same in college. 1942. You have heard college boys wish it was the same in college as iu commoners ? — Yes. 1943. {Mr. Thompson.) Do you mean prefects ? — No, juniors. 1944. {Sir S. Northcote.) Do j'ou think the junior boys find the system disagreeable ? — They think it is so. 1945. {Mr. Thompson.) How long does it last, one year or two ? — Till you become prefect or caudle- keeper. You get ver}' little to do as senior in cham- bers ; but till yon get about forty juniors you have to fag ; you begin to fag less when you have twenty- seven. I have only got seven. 1946. (Mr. VdUffhan.) How long do you look forward to its lasting with you ? — Till I become a prefect, which I cannot be for nearly two years now. 1947. Will the fagging which you have described become less and less? — No ; because I should not get more juniors till next Midsummer. Then, perhaps, I should only get seven more, and that would only be 14. 1948. {Mr. Thompson.) Are you allowed in any way to fag your own juniors ? — Not till you have got about 20 or 25, and then, if the prefect tells you to get him anything, you may send one of your juniors. 1949. He is obliged to obey you ? — Yes. 1950. {3Ir. Vaughan.) Do you juniors play any game of your own, at cricket, and take the bat, anil have the best part of the game ? — Some Ijoys do who have got enough juniors. 1951. But before you have more juniors ? — No. _ 1952. Then, iu fact, a boy before he gets into a higher position never plays the game in the proper sense of the word as he would like to play it ? — No. 1953. {Lord Lyttelton.) Does not he play at foot- ball? — We are forced to play at football just the same as the others. 1954. {Mr. Twislcton.) So that from next Mid- summer it will be probably two years before you be- come a prefect ? — From now. 195.5. And when you becoriie a prefect you will at once, instead of being a fag, fag others, and instead of being compelled to watch out at cricket for others, you will compel other boys to watch out for you ? — That is if I choose to play. 1956. Are you not fond of cricket, then ? — No. 1957. Did you not play it before you came to Win- chester ? — No. 1958. You never played it before then ? — No, I do not think I did. 1959. {Mr. 77(o«(y;«o;(.) Were you taught at home ? —Yes. 1960. {Sir S. Northcote.) If the going out to games was put an end to, do you think the boys would dislike the other part of the fagging ? — Not at all ; they would not care much. 1961. {Mr. Thompson.) You said that the boys out of college were glad when they did not get in. Supposing you had the opportunity of being a com- moner next week, would you embrace it or not ? — No, I should not care to be there. 1962. I mean, independent of your prospects at the University ? — No ; there are so many things worse iu commoners ; the prefects do not keep things down ; they do not prevent things they ought to. 1963. You think there is less discipline in com- moners ? — Yes. 1964. It is an easier life, but it is worse discipline ? — Yes. The only thing I should care to get iu for would be to get otF the fagging. 1965. {Lord T^yttelton.) Do you mean there is much less fagging in commoners ? — There is about as much fagging for those who are under a certain posi- tion in the school. 1966. The fiigging ceases at an earlier time in the school ? — Yes. 1967. {Mr. Thompson.') How old may a hoj be in college and yet be a fag ? — He may have been in college three years. 1968. No age protects you ? — No. 1969. Does any standing in school protect you short of being a prefect ? — No. 1970. Being a prefect means being in the sixth form ? — Being in the senior division. 1971. {Mr. Vaughan.) Bowling is a part of the fagging, is it not ? — Yes, but we never have to bowl ; we generally have only to field. 1972. Because you cannot bowl well enough to give good practice ? — Yes. 1973. But the higher boys have to bowl as ftigs? — They might have to. 1974. Is it not the case that they have two or three bowling to them at the same time? — Yes; I think they sometimes have two. 1975. How many would one prefect have attending to him altogether at his game ? — He might have seven or eight, or he might have only four ; as many as he could get, or as many as he wanted. 1976. It would amount at the outside to how many? — He could not have more than eight verj' well, because all flie prefects generally play, and they all want some juniors 1977. There would not be enough for all of them? —No. 1978. {Mr. Twislcton.) Have you had lectures in the school on the physical sciences this year ? — We had one lecture last Saturday. 1979. What was that on ? — On light. 1980. Did all the boys attend it? — Only the college boys, and the exhibitioners in commoners properlj'; but they are going to allow some commoners to attend if they choose to subscribe. 1981. But the others are not allowed to attend ? — No. ( 3S9 ) WINCHESTER. ANALYSIS OF THE EVIDENCE. [♦^* The Names of the Witnesses are in Alphabetical Order. The Figures refer to tlie Nimibers of tlie Quesiions in t!ie 3Iinutes of Kvidencc.] ^V1N0HESTER. ANGOVILLE, Mr. O. C, page 36J. lias been for the last 18 years engaged In teaching IVench at \Vinciiester ; 8C-1-SGG. Has seven classes of -2'2 or LM boys each, to wiiom he gives lessons t^vice a week ; his A-^sistant Master tiikcs about 70 boys. Kvery boy has an hour and a lialf's French instruction in a week besides the preparation of the lessons. Tlie books used are " Jlolitic," *' Gil 131as," " Se- daine," " Berquin," and " Kecucil C!»oisi." Thinks tliat tlic study of Frencii at Winchester has advanced during the last 10 years. The boys behave better than formerly. Impositions for misconduct. Most of the boys who leave pronounce well, ' some speak French well, others not so well, the upper iioys would not make a mistake in the irregular vcibs. Is satisfied with the system of learning Frendi as it is; but would like more time to be devoted to it. The boys translate and re- ' translate; also translate orally ; 8(»7— 918, FEAUON, W. A., Esq., pnge 3C7. Was on the foundation of Winchester College for T.J years; left 3^ years ago ; was elected from Winchester a scholar cf New College, Oxford; and is there now; 1009-101-1. Was the first elected under the new system ; the sciiolarships are tenable for only 5 years; had gained several prizes at Win- chester; 1015-lOliO. College boys and scholars on perfect equality ; there was rivalry in the games, &c.; the collegers' gown was not disliked ; formerly college boys nearly all of Winchester families ; 1021-10^9. Circumstances of the candi- dates for scholarships not much considered ; does not think that Winchestt-T boys succeed more than others ; 10.'19-I03-i. The College is considered (juite as comfortable as the boarding houses, slet'ping rooms includetl ; 103o-1043. There are 18 prefects on the foundation and 12 in commoners; generally chosen with regard to tlieir seniority in the school ; one boy was not permitted to become a prefect in consequence of bad character ; 10-1-1-1049. The prefects had each 7 or 8 pupils whose composition they had to look over »nd correct before sending it up to the Composition Master ; the prefects had two guineas a year for each pnpil ; the Head Master selects the boy tutors ; a pupil could be under a boy tutor till he reached the Sixth Form ; only the first 10 boys had pupils ; the boy tutor is responsible for his pupils* work ; prefects have the power of caning the boys, &c. ; younger boys like the system of boy-tutors very much ; lOjO-1067. The system of boy-tutors makes the Masters' work easier ; the system useful ; the first five of the 10 prefects are called officers ; one of these is the Prefect of Hall, who is really almost the governor of the School ; his authority is undisputed ; I0f>S-1096\ Kxtent of fi'gging at Winchester; 1097-1107. Fagging at cricket and games; 1134-1146, and 1155-1158. 8even or eight years ago there was a tendency to drink ; the punishment for visiting the town was a severe flogging ; prefects' duty to elieck bad language and immorality of any kind ; llOS-1123. The tone and character of the School genllemanlike and honorable; 1124. Funisii- ments for l>ing ; 1 125-11139. Knives, or little tilings of that sort, might be sometimes taken by one boy from another ; but if this were carried to a great extent, and it came to a prefect's cars, it would be stopped directly; 1130-1136. Never Iieaid boys ex])ress a wish for single sleeping rooms ; they are very comfortable in the dormitories; 1147—1151. The boys re- quired to kneel down in silence before bed ; prayers read to the whole School at9; 1153, 1154. Diet good ; 'l ] 59-1166. Sundays (See evidence of Dr. Moberley ; 690-704); Greek Testament done by senior boys; juniors learn Collect and Gospel in English ; religious instruction ; 1167-1180. Great care taken in preparing the boys for Confirmation, on the Friday before Advent ; and on Advent Sunday all the boys confirmed take the Sacrament ; no compulsion however ; boys occasionally stay away; 1181-1192. The examination in religious subjects by the Master not inquisitorial or disagreeable ; all the boys are Church of England boys ; arc not obliged to answer questions they do not like ; 1 1 93, 1 ] 94. No general system of private tuition now ; but for about two years a tutor came down from Oxford as special pri- vate tutor for the Sixth Form; each pupil paid him 10/. per annum ; two-thirds of Sixtli Form went to him ; he instructed in classics only; 1195-1206. Details as to private teaching and examinations ; 1207-1237. Some boys desire to rise, and study hard, others only study through fear of punishment ; a boy who gets on well in school is looked up to ; the tone of the School is not antagonistic to reading ; formerly a dilileulty about reading during playhours ; the School take an interest in the Scholarships ; 1238-1243. A great number of lines of poetry leirned by each boy, and his place in the form materially altered by it ; has known boys in the middle of the Fifth Form say Fearox, W. a., Esq. — conf. 7,000 lines by heart ; 1244-1248. System of marks ; 1249- 1253. A periodical examination in the work would be a good accompaniment and corrective of the deficiencies in the other system ; marking a stimulus ; 1254-1258. Exiiibiiions in commoners given by examination; 1260-1264. Second IMaster responsible for the discipline of the College; the Head Master's house in commoners; Warden looks to the Second Master for the character of tlie collegers ; 1265-1267, French and German not deemed of so much importance formerly as at present; 1268—1279. For the Goddard scholarship examinations por- tions of English History had to be got up ; 1280. Lower part of the School used to trace a maj) every Saturday and take much pains with it ; Dr. Moberly often talked a good deal about geography ; 1281, 1282. Prize for Mathematics; went through conic sections, but did not commence the calculus ; 12S3-12S8. A hard working boy wotdd work about 7 hours a day, and just before the examinations or 10 ; 12S9. A boy distinguished for compo.'^itioii would lake about two or three hours to do an exercise; but there were shorter pieces of com- position ; 1290. Natural science lectures (See uho on this Evidence of Uev. Godfrey B. l.ee and Rev. G, JNIoberly); 1209-1305. Debating Society established ; had debates on political subjects , one on Oliver Cromwell ; a reform bill relating to college clothing, &c.; 1306-1310. Cricket; 1311- 1325. Punishments by flogging, impositions, &c. ; 1326-1347. Nearly all the men at New College, Oxford, come from Win- chester ; himself passed tlie Jlotleralions examination ; took double first honours in Maliiemalics and Classics ; 1348-1352. Enough Greek prose is not taught at Winchester ; prize for Greek prose translation ; thinks more translation of Latin verse into Greek prose, &c. should be done; boys at the top of the School used to i.]o about 40 lines of poetry and 40 lines of prose a week ; 1353-1362. Never lieard complaint of Winchester men not translating well ; considers that the time he spent at Winchester was usefully and advantageously employed ; 1363— 1365. JUNIOR, A. in Winchksti ii Coi.li:ck, page 381. Is on the foundation oi' Winchester College; was 14 last November ; went to Wincliester at the beginning of last September ; entered the College through open competition ; was one out of 137 candidates, seven of wdiom obtained scholarships ; was placed the middle of the Fifth Form, which is a little higher than the middle of the School; 1545- 1556. Gives evidence as to fagging, school duties, diseipline, punishments, &c. ; does not see any special objection to the fagging system as carried on in the school, except the going out to games ; no fighting takes place; 1557, 1981. LEE, Rev. GODFREY R, U.A., page S2.J, Is warden of Winchester College ; has been in residence 14 months, but has been elected longer; was a tutor for 21 years; 1-3. No m.iterial changes made in the letting and management of the school projierty during the last 50 years; 4, Fines taken more fully than formerly ; two years ago the fines were raised from l=f years* improved value to 2:^ years', and it is intended to renew no leases in future for less than 2A years improved value, calculated on the 6 per cent. tables ; the phui found to answer at New College, Oxford ; has the burden of lighting for the fines, and also the corre- spondence and odium ; proposes to lei some leases run out every year till all are discontinued ; we have declined to renew three leases this year; 5-11. Has a steward and land-agent, wdio would give evidence as to alteration in the value of the property ; 12-14. In 1360 the receipts were 17,622/. 5s. 5rf., the expenditure 20,098/. 6.s-. 7f/.; 15, 16. Sold to Her Majesty for 18,000/. an estate near Osborne, and the purchase money is to be invested in other land at Ilainldedon ; 17 and 31-35. The College authorities have laid by a portion of the revenue of the College in good years, so that if they have a bad yciir they may have it to fall back upon ; had a balance in hand from the year 1859, with which tlie surplus expenditure of 1860 was paid ; 18-20, Warden and Fellows have absolute discretion as to the giving of livings ; most of them are given to Fellows ; gives a few instances of a contrary practice ; 21-28. Ten Fellows of the College; to be reduced to six ; 29, 30. The Bcdminster trust amounts to 15,600/., and produces 468/. per annum ; amount is to be given in exhi- bitions to boys who do not succeed in getting to New College, to help them to obtain a University education ; exhibitions are not given upon examination, but tiie boys are selected by the Warden, Head Master, and Under Muster, and consist of such as are poor and have a good moral character ; believes lliut as 3 C3 390 PUBLIC SCHOOLS COMMISSION: — ANALYSIS 0¥ EVIDENCE. WINCHESTER. X-ee, Rev. Godfrey B., M.A. — conf. ' loOo lis the trust is faithfully administered it is a very valuable one ; tlie largest assistance given is 50/. ; the boys are educated for four years, and may then go to either Oxford or Cambridge; 36-56, and »G-125. The Duncan prize is a small mathematical I>rize given exclusively by examination; 57. The Sui)erannuates Fund Exhibitions arc i'vr boys superannuated without going to New College, when they have attained the age of 18 ; they then have to enter the L'nivertity on their own account ; and this funil is to assist them ; this superannuation virtually sends our men to the rnatest at the Universities a year earlier than the other public schools ; 5*3-70. Subject pursued ; fund founded by Warden Dobson, I "32 ; 86-126. Warden and Fellows of New College have power to elect at any age ; 71—72. To amend or alter any specific provision in one of the Statutes there must be the consent of the Queen and the Privy Council ; 73-77. The Goddard Benefaction is the 25,000?. consols "to increase the stipends of the two jM'4sters;" the Goddard SL-holarship, answering to the Newcasile of Eton; is of the value of 25/. a year, and is given on examination ; it is given three years out of tour, and is tenable for four years ; and in the (burth year the Pitt Club in London gives a scliolarship of 30/. per annum, and as that club pays the boy the fourth scholarship it does not appear in the accounts ; 78-83. .^s ihe exiiibitions are now administered they are very advantageous, and he would be sorry to see them administered in any other way ; 84, 85. The subject pursued in detail ; boys at liberty to compete for any scholarships ; boys have sometimes obtained a scholarship at other colleges, and then - a Winchester exhibition ; 86-108. Value of an undergra- duate's scholarship at Oxford 90/., exclusive of room-rent, and tuition; 109-113. A superannuate must be a scholar, as scholars only were eligible ; this fund was a subscription fund set on foot by Warden Dobson in 1732; 114-126. The Oxford Commissioners have reduced the ten Fellowships to six ; Fellows are the trustees of the College, one is Sub- warden, two are Bursars ; the Sub-warden responsible for everything when the Warden is ill; 127-130. Any further reduction in the number of Fellows would be injurious to the interests of the College, in depriving it of the means ot providing for Masters who are superannuated ; however, one only of the existing Fellows was a Master here, otie was a tutor at New College, the other eight were never Masters ; 131-135. But they w'ere Fellows of New College ; Provisions of (Ordinance ; 136—138. The old usage was that the Bursar and one or two of the others shoidd be resident ; new Statutes as to residence ; 139-147, and 155-164. No limit to the value of the livings which a Fellow may hold ; any living may be held with a Fellowship ; 148, 149. The Fellowships to be suppressed are to be convei'ted into scholarships ; hopes no more will be suppressed ; 151-152. Head Master's salary is 75c/. ; makes a considerable addition by his boarders ; the second Master's salary is 58C/. per annum, besides capitation fees ; would be sorry to see the Fellowships reduced for the purpose of increasing the stipends of the Masters ; the Warden has no power to transact the majora negntia without the consent and assistance of the Fellows ; 152-154. Statutes silent as to marriage of Fellows, as originally they were priests ; now they may be married; generally there are two resident Fellows; they are not compelled to attend ch;5pel nor take part in the service ; have a common dining room, but do not use it; Fellows elect the Masters ; their duties generally ; 155-176. Warden appoints chorislers and the schoolmaster ; the choristers only sing in the chapel ; have a separate schoolroom ; are of a lower rank in life than the scholars ; have a good commercial education, and are afterwards apprenticed to a trade with the approbation of the Warden; they board and lodge in the schoolmaster's house; 177- 181. An abbreviated service in the chapel daily, looked upon as a kind of famUy prayers ; 182-184. Making the Head Mas- t( y or Assistant Masters Fellows would be objectionable ; there would be a sort of iinpenum in imperio, which would be em- barrassing ; they would be the governed and the governing bodies at the same time ; 185, 186. Has prepared a draft of some new statutes with the assistance of a barrister ; 187-190. Thinks the advice and assistance of the Fellows valuable in governing the College ; they have power to interfere with the studies of Ihe School, but do not exercise it ; 191-201. Four stated meetings of the Wardens and Fellows annu.ally ; others occasionally ; a majority of Fellows must attend ; in case the Warden becomes dl or imbecile a pro-warden is elected from the Fellows ; the Warden has an office for life ; 202-207. His power would he much increased if there were no Fellows ; it would only be limited by such Acts of Parliament as relate to this and similar bodies; 206-209. A foundation scholar awarded punishment by the Head Master can appeal to the Warden, who if he thought it groundless would dispose of it ; if insisted upon he would bring it before the Fellows ; has not the power to expel a scholar without the consent of the Fellows ; power of appeal to the Visitor ; but Head Master has supreme power over commoners ; 210-222. The School is governed by the unrepealed portions of the statutes and by the ordinance of the Oxford Uinversity Commissioners; Bishop of Winchester has to approve of all new statutes ; some of the old ones have become obsolete ; many have been repealed as inconsistent with the law of he land ; 223-227. No unpleasant collision has ever occurred in consequence of the double government of the Lee, Rev. Godfrey B., M.A. — cont. School ; 228. School has two visitors ; New College, Oxford, hold a scrutiny every year, at which all members of the College may make complaint ; formerly many complaints about diet, &c.; the Bishop as Visitor has power lo make alterations, and the double visitations have never clashed ; reforms ; 229-258. A tutor wishing to open a boarding house for commoners is obliged to apply to the W.arden and Fellows for leave; the authority of the Warden and Fellows limited with respect to the commoners, who were originally admitted as/Z/i nobilium; com- plaints concerning teaching, diet, punishmeni, discipline, &e treated by the Head Master, except in very bad cases of breach of discipline ; Fellows have control over the number of the commoners ; 259-266. Further examined, (p. 363) : Letters in " The Times ;" it would be impossible to convey in a circular information concerning admission to the School that would do .away with the necessity of all correspondence j impossible to slate when the circulars are issued how manj' vacancies there will be ; last year there were 108 candidates for the College; 98 came to examination ; only 8 were admitted ; since the College was thrown open to general competition the average number of candidates has been 10a ; there would be no objection la inserting in the circular the limit of age and the subjects of examination ; to state the exact value of the scholarships would be very difficult ; 919-926. A letter in the " Times " last year caused a great deal of correspondence from all sorts of people, but none who would wish to avail themselves of the foundation ; they found on application that the education was neither what they wished nor contemplated ; thinks that if the heads of examination were somewhat more fully slated it would render a correspondence less necessary ; 927, 928. Corrects his evidence ; boys sometimes have had exhibitions given for good conduct without previous exami- nation ; but such eases of unfrequent occurrence ; 925-929. In consequence of the opinion of the Commissioners, lecturers are now engaged to teach the physical sciences ; only 12 or 10 lectures given in the year ; it would be advantageous to have another course of lectures in the short half-year from .September lo Christmas ; thinks that if prizes were'given for examinations in physical science the boys would attend the lectures more eagerly ; 930-941. The lecturer is paid 100 guineas for his course ; 942. It was proposed originally to devote three Fellowships to Natural Science ; lectures substi- tuted for this ; the Fellowships proposed to be abolished produce about 1,500/. per annum ; 943-949. Anticipates no objection to three courses of lectures a year; 950-953. .■Vn examination in outlying subjects, such as French and history, not taught in the school, has been instituted by the Head Jlaster with good effect ; objects to substitute an examin.ation in physical science for the examination in modern languages or modern history ; would ralher add than Eubstilute ; 954-961. Some boys take great interest in the lectures, but most do not ; the lecturer was cheered by the boys on commencing his third course of lectures ; 962-965. Sanitary condition of Winchester ; inhabitants refused to listen to a sanitary engineer ; at Christmas, 1861, typhus fever raged in Winchester ; several boys taken ill, and one sent home, where he died of the fever, but it was not a healthy place that he was sent to ; 966-969. Does not think there is any want of ventilation in the d( rmitories ; but would be glad if the chambers could be enlarged ; 970-973. Thinks it unreasonable to expect the College authorities to make any great change in the mirriculum of education so long as the University makes no change ; because they educate for the University, they are connected specially with one College, their scholarships all belong to that College; and if they change their course of educaii( n so that their scholars ^hould be unfitted for the highest univeisily education they would be depriving them of endowments in Oxford, which would then go to other schools where a high classical education is given ; Winchester College was founded principally for the priesthood, and so long as it is thought essential that the clergy sliould be learned and have a classical education, Greek and Latin must be retained ; 974-975. The qualifications for scholarships are : 1, That the candidate be under 14 years of age ; 2, not wealthy ; 3, a bap- tized member of the Church of England ; with, 4, testimonials of moral conduct. Does not think a peer's son would be eligible for a scholarship ; opinions as to disqualification on account of wealth ; 976, 986. 'I'hinks that in all cases the most proficient boys are elected to the scholarships almost regardless of their • poverty or wealth ; 987-990. Diet of senior and junior boys ; 991-994. It is in the discretion of the Warden who is to preach in the chapel ; the Head Master and the Second Master preach ; so do the Fellows when asked : the chaplain preaches; thinks it desirable to have a change of preachers for the chapel ; 995-1000. Considers the Warden and fellows to be responsible for the subjects taught in the College ; but the visitor might interfere ; 1005-1007. Paper put in concerning the Superannuates' Fund and the Bedminster Exhibition. MOBERLY, Rev. GEORGE, D.C.L., page 331. Has been for 27 years Head Master of Winchester School ; was bred there ; was a fellow and tutor of Balliol some years ; did not succeed in getting to New College, 267-271. His emoluments amount to 750/., minus 350/., interest on 10,000/. PUBLIC SCHOOLS COMMISSION :— ANALYSIS OF EVIDENCE. 391 >IoBERLY, Kev. George, D.C.L. — cont. advanced by the CollegL' to assist in building his present resi- dence, wiiicli cost altogether 27,000/. ; has ibo boarders ; had 145 at oue time, when a bat! sanitary reputation sent dou-n the nuinber to 65 ; does not propose to take a larger number than 100 ii> future ; boarders have all been living in the Master's house till the last two years, 272-277. New College elections are now open to comjietition by all boys in the school. 27S. Profits of boarders'; expenses; salaries; 278-285. Mathe- matical course compulsory, 286-2*^8. Details as to school charges, school expenses, salaries, fees, &c. ; witness's total . emoluments about ;!,000/. a year; 2S9-S26. Considers the board and lodgings he gives to tutors is worth lOJ/. a year besides their stipend, 327. Has two French IVIasters ; Ger- man or French taught to every boy ; first exannnation held in January ; the boys took a good de.d of interest in it ; thinks the plan will work well ; describes the examinations, 328-346. Describes the nature of the foundation of tlie College by William of Wykehitm; there were a Warden and Fellows as tlie govern- ing body ; and the Masters are condiictitii ettcmotivi by them ; the scliool grew up to be of great imporlanee ; at first a few boys were adinitteil a^ Jilii nobilium, and, ihe education being found to be of value, other boys were sent ; if any matter of importance took place as to the scholars, he (the Head IMaster) was obliged to lay it before the Warden, and even with regard to the commoners he would not think of doing anytliing remarkable witlu)ut consulting the Warden; such a consti- tution he vvouKl not desire for an institution, but it having grown up traditionally he wouUl be sorry to have it interfered with ; pratiically the government of the College is in the hands of the Warden, as the Fellows are non-resident, .S47-:358, 365—368, and 373 et seq. Many improvements have been made in the College by the Warden and Fellows ; but not in the teaching department. The Fellowships may be regarded in the light of retiring allowances for the M.asters of the School and the Fellows of New College; 359-361. They are to be reduced from ten to six ; does not think them material ; in a new institution a Warden controlling the Head Master would be monstrous; not so where a Warden is an inheri' lance ; 362, 363. Selects the Masters from New College, if possible ; such a restriction cannot Improve the tpiality of the teaching ; 364. The statutes and ordinances relate to scholars and not commoners; 369-371. Believes that any new scheme to be carried out successfully must have the full sym- pathy of New College ; does not wish the constitution oi the Winchester College or School to lie changed ; thinks that the authority of the Head Master should be supreme, but that a body should exist to lay dow-n some general rules for his guidance, and even with power to remove him ; thinks the present system satisfactory ; if complaints are received from the parents the Warden has to attend to the correspondence ; the Warden appoints the Mathematical Master, the French and German Masters, and the College tutor ; College prefects formerly had charge of six lesser boys, and were in a great mea- sure responsible for them ; 374-382, and 385-392. Does not wish the Fellows to assist in the education of the School ; 383, 384. College tutor appointed at the suggestion of Mr. Words- worth ; would wish the system of boy tutors to be kept up ; 389-398. Proposed increase in the number of scholars from 70 to 100 is as great as is desirable ; the number of scholars was to be increased because the reduction of the Fellowships left funds unappropriated ; 399, 400. Election of scholars is by an open competition ; large number of candidates ; this plan has proved successful ; has an avera;.ie of 14 admissions per aimum of scholars ; the marks are given by the electors ac- cording to their discretion ; they have elected of late some boys of rather low parentage, and they have not turned out so well as was expected ; deiails as to scholars and commoners, competitions, &c. ; scholars are superior to commoners ; 401 to 432. The open competition was introduced previous to the Oxford Commission by the authority of the Visitor ; 433—437. The plan of the boys having private tutors sug- gested five years ago ; is now introducing the system fully ; believes it one of great value ; has under his owm teaching 80 boys, 20 of whom are p.artly taught by an assistant ; 438-447. Details of school rain.igement ; 4-)8-452. About half a dozen boys out of 92 in his house allowed to have porter, &c. under a medical certificate ; formerly the consumption of beer was far too great ; 453-456. The boys who attend Mr. Du Boulay's house, which is about a quarter of a mile off*, do not attend morn- ing chapel ; 457, 458. Some of the senior boys have private studies ; others learn in school ; they have also a large hall ; scholars can learn in their bedrooms but commoners may not ; 459 to 468. Details and opinions as to diet, &c. ; thinks meat once a day, with bread and butter at breakfast and tea, all that is necessary ; but has lately introduced a bread and cheese supper at 8*30 ; occasionally the boys got in meat for break- fast and tea ; the parents sometimes send them hams and such things ; some of the boys often visit the pastry shop ; 469- 474. Boarding-houses, provision of furniture, payments for breakage, &c. ; 475-480. (Documents read relative to the suggested introduction into the College of instruction in the phy- sical sciences.) Has experienced great diliiculty in obtaining effi- cient lecturers on the physical sciences; so far as the system has been carried out the cost has been 100 guineas a year ; opinions as to the benefit derived from physical science and the influence MoBERLV, Rev. George, D.C.L. — cont. WINCHESTER. of the lectures ; thinks it very desirable that physical sciences shoidd he known by everybody ; they are matters of accom- plishment and knowleilge which everybody should know some- thing of, hut .ns a mailer of education and training of the mind, does not feel their value ; 4R1-520. lioys occasionally refused admittance lo tlie School from inability to join the lower classes ; promotions made according to ability ; promotions more rapid at Winchesler than at other schools ; 521-524. The Bed- minster Fund described ; 526 (see Rev. G. B. Lee's evidence). Wishes to give another exhihiiion to the boys besides the God- dard Scholarship of 25/. a year for four years ; wishes that the Examiners would produce a list of Ihe examination and the marks, that the list should lie published, and that the Warden and Fellows should select ilie person to receive the exhibition ; 527-531. Buys must leave the School on Iheir 18lh birthday, unless Ihey have been recommended for New College at the previous election ; several such scholars in the school ; if all boys went away from Winchesler at 18, it would be a year and sometimes two years earlier than the candidates from ihe other schools ; thinks it undesirable that the boys in the Lower School should be allowed to stay till lliey are 19, because it is a gratuilous education, and parents would be desirous for their children to stay as long as possible ; it would be desirable, however, for boys to stay beyonil IS if they were on Ihe Sixth Form; 532-51'. No .meetings of the H^ad and Assistant Masters held for the purpose of considering the best mode of carrying on the school ; the Second Master Oeing statutory is - not controlled by the Head Mister, but only by the Warden and Fellows ; 542-545. Superintends the senior division of the Fifth as well as the Sixth Form; Greek Test.iment; 546- 552. Remarks as to the teaching of history, mathematics, French, German, Greek, &c. S.e. ; 553-584. Would find great difficulty in obtaining M,asters who had a sufficient knowledge of French to teach it properly and were up in other subjects ; has difficulty in getting the boys to attend the French lessons in conseijuencc of no stimulus being given ; scholar- ships for modern languages are given at Oxford ; does not think it would be advantageous to make the condition of the employment of an Under Master be a knowledge of French ; the French .Master has the power o( giving impositions ; has established prizes for the lower divisions; 585-605. Remarks with regard to proposed examinations in collateral matters ; the Goddard Scholarship ; docs not wish to have more than 20 boys at the Scholarship examinations ; all the best boys get to the top of the School ; English history forms a principal part in the examinations ; two gold medals from the Queen for com- positions in Latin and English verse and prose, and silver medals for elocution in Lilin and English ; in each year the Warden and Fellows give piizes for composition not rewarded by gold medals ; 60G-624. School Details. Is in favour of the system of private tuiiion ; wishes the boy tutors to be as an elder brother to their pupils ; 625-656. The numbers of the scholars has been increasing rapidly, and if the increase continues it will be necessary next year to appoint a new M.ister ; does not wish the number in each class to exceed 40 ; thinks that with proper teaching it is easy to keep 40 boys in order; 657, 658. Some few cases are allowed where classical work is commuted for mathematics or any other study the boys or their parents may wish ; does not consider the School large enough to admit of having an "army class;" has had boys who have competed successfully at the Civil Service Examinations ; some have gone to Sandhurst, others to Government offices ; 659-664. Thinks it would be desirable to have distinct depariments if Winchester were as large as Eton, but not now ; has never found the boys* interest in Greek and Latin to flag while they are going on with those studies ; out of the 80 boys in the Sixth Form probably 50 will be scholars ; thinks that a boy w ho is idle in one intellectual pursuit would be idle in any pursuit; 665-671. Thinks that the system of " bifurcation " (allowing boys after a certain time to branch off into another department) is a question of the size of the School ; a boy's rank in School depends on his proficiency in classics ; thinks it necessary that there should be one leadin" subject, proficiency in which should be the main principle of classification ; but that other subjects might come in and swell the marks;; 672-681, and 687, 688. Thinks a School should be of such magnitude that all ihe best scholars can get through it and go out at the top with a certain stamp ; 682-684. Thinks that the prefects should be sufficiently numerous to support one another and to have authority ; 685, 686. There is a library in the College for prefects lo whicli the commoner prefects have access ; there is also a smaller library for the commoner pre' fects only ; 689. College has organist and singing men, a complete choir ; full choral services twice on Sundays, Saturday evenings, and all saints' days ; on Sundays prayers in the College chapel at 8 ; at half past 10, the litany, communion, prayers, and sermon in the Cathedral ; and at 5 prayers and a sermon in the Cathedral ; preaching in Ihe chapel instituted by Mr. Barter ; Confirmations held for the boys every two years ; attendance at the Holy Communion entirely volun- tary ; 690-704 The Sunday lesson is the Greek Testament construed and explained ; during the last 24 years the boys have continually been going through the Greek Gospels and the Acts of the Aposlles ; 704-708. Details as to jiunishments; 709-728. Cases of gross misconduct, such as theft, referred to the Warden ; 729, 730. Till recently the boys had a limited 3 C 4 392 PUBLIC SCHOOLS COMMISSION : — ANALYSIS OF EVIDENCE. WIXCHKSTER. Mobf.rlv, Rev. GEoacE. D.C.h.— cunt. — range of tlic coimlrv and wure entirely excluded from tlie town ; they are now allowjd to go all over tlie country ; 7S1-733. In College the prefects are the 10 senior boys; the College pre- fects have authority only over the scholars ; details as to the authority the prefects exercise over the juniors ; thinks the prefect system works admirably ; 734-754. Fagging only permitted for the Prefects ; 7 JS-7C-1. Games ; 7G5-7S1. Thinks the system of having three breaks in the School^ year .idvantageous ; the regular holidays are only on the saints' days, on which no regular work is done ; amusements, &c. on holi- days ; 782-79L'. Rifle corps for the boys ; 793-800. Tmic for chapel ; tlie bovs have seven hours' schooling daily, except on saints' d.ays ; tlie' Head Master attends for five hours daily ; 807. The College meadow is four acres in extent ; it \yould be diflicult to extend the playground as it is bounded by rivers; swimming and boating ; 808-816. Recitations and speeches ; ladies and gentlemen attend to hear tliem ; is of opinion that they do away with false shame, and make the boys orators; 817-821. Considers that the classical education at tlie public schools would be improved if only one grammar was used ; 822-S30. Every school of this kind gives a peculiar stamp to its boys ; Winchester stamp is very marked ; does not wish "bifurcation" to be introduced at Winchester .School, but to let it he done at College ; thinks the historical essay of the boys written before Christmas very useful ; a great number of lines are learnt by heart ; has known a boy to repeat a play of Sophocles without missing a word. Considers that the School would be much benefited if the Head Master was con- fined to one class ; 831-848. Some boys will work for nine or ten hours a day, &c. ; 849-863. THRESHER, J. H., Esq , page 377. Has been at New College for two years ; was previously in Winchester for 5i years ; 1366-1370. The relation existing Thresher, J. H., Esq. — cont. ' between the commoners and those on the foundation of Win- chester is very friendly ; they mix in games ; not so formerly ; each party thought the other inferior; 1371 — 1377. More on this subject; 1413-1418. No ill feeling with regard to the gown ; 1378, 1379. Prefects are popular, and do not abuse their power; 1380-1384. Public opinion in the school sound and wholesome ; neither swearing, drinking, gambling, nor bullying treated otherwise thail with reprobation ; 1385-1396. Regards fagging as beneficial ; there were only two complaints while he was there, in one of which the Head Master decided that the complaint was just ; 1397-1408. Sleeping accommodation ; five or six slept in each room ; conijilaints not made ; 1409-1412. At first the diet was sufficient in quantity but somewhat inferior in quality, or at all events it was served in an uncomfortable manner ; subsequently this was remedied ; one meat meal only in a day ; 1419-1429. Religious instruction, chapel. Confir- mation, alike for collegers and commoners ; 1430-1434. Boy tutors, private tuition ; 1435-1453. More details as to school work ; 1454—1457. Prizes ; exhibitions to Oxford now open to commoners and collegers ; competition for prizes ; 1458- 1469. French and German learnt imperfectly ; 1470—1480, and 1490-1492. Mathematics; 1481. History; 1482-1489. Time for school work, 30 hours a week ; for recreation and leisure, see details ; 1494—1501. Flogging has been much diminished, with good results ; 1502-1509. Winchester men are considered at Oxford to be fair scholars ; subject pursued ; 1510-1521. Would prefer seeing at Winchester less original composition and more translation ; 1522—1529. Thinks more might be done at Winchester with modern languages and physical science without trenching on classics or recreation ; 1530-1533. Fagging, &c.; 1534-1544. MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. WESTMINSTER. LIST OF WITNESSES. Date of Date of Name of Witness. Examino. tion. Page. Name of Witness. Examin- ation. Page. 1862. 1862. Very Rev. H. G. Liddell, D.D., Dean of June 21 393-402 Rev. James Mai-shall, M.A., Senior June 24 452-455 Christchtirch, formerly Head Master Assistant Master. of Westminster School. Eev. Lord John Thynne, Canon and Sub- 455-466 Eev. T. W. Weare, .formerly Second 402-411 1 dean of Westminster. Master. II. L. Thompson, Esq. • Nov. 21 466-475 Rev. C. B, Scott, B.D., Head Master - June 23 411-424 I 1863. James Mure, Esq. .... 424-428 William Sleyrick, Esq. - Jan. 28 475-484 Robert I'hillimore, Esq., D.C.L. - 428-432 Mr. W. S. Meyrick - . Jan. 29 484-495 Eev. C. 15. Scott further examined „ 432-444 : Mr. G. T. M. O'Brien - Feb. 3 495-504 Rev. Jas. Lupton, MA., Minor Canon June 24 444-449 i Mr. Alan Stewart - „ 504-506 of Westminster, and Mr. Jas. Turle, Rev. C. B. Scott further examined March 14 506-520 Organist. H. A. Hunt, Esq., Surveyor to the Dean May 15 522-525 Eev. 11. M. Ingram, Under Master M 449-452 and Chapter. Victoria Street, Saturday, 21st Jxrne 1862. PRESENT ; Eael of Clakexdon. Eaul of Devon. Lord Lyttelton. Rev. W. H. Thompson. H. Haxfokd Vadghan, Esq. The earl OF CLARENDON in the CnAin. The Very Rev. Henry George Liddell, D.D., Dean of Chrislchurcli, examined. WEST- MINSTER. 1. {Lord Clarendon.') I believe you were for- merly Head Master of Westminster school ? — I was. 2. For how many years? — For nine years. 3. At what period did your connexion with the school cease ? — In August 1855. 4. Before we proceed to ask you for any infor- mation in detail, perhaps you will have the goodness to give us any general view that you may have had and retained with respect to the state of the school when you came to it, and when you left it ; whether you think the statutes were fully carried out or not, and whether you can make any suggestion in the way of improvement ? — I had no knowledge of tiie statutes when I was Head jNIaster at Westminster, except during the latter part of my time. They were never put into my hand,*. But from what I now know of the statutes, from recent acquaint- ance with them, I think they were carried out to a reasonable extent, as much as in most places where ancient statutes exist. A great many of the provisions were not carried out, and could not be carried out ; but a great many of them were. 5. I believe that the number of boys in the school has greatly decreased, and is less than it used to be in former years ? — Very greatly. I find that the decline began more than 40 years ago. In that period there have been four Head Masters. I have drawn a paper up as nearly as I could for periods of live years each, and I find that during those 40 years the average entrances have been 76, 77, 39, 23, 22, 39, 23, 27, in the successive periods of five years. The boys also stay a shorter time at the school than they did formerly, and the whole number has declined considerably. 6. Do you attribute the decline in the number of boys to any defect in the system of tuition or to the internal administration or economy of the school that you think could be improved ? — I am not inclined to attribute it to those causes. It is often said that those causes had some influence under one of the Head Masters, but the decline of the school began before his time. 7. Is there any particular cause to which you attribute that decline ? — I think that parents are more particular, mothers especially, and they wish their sons to have more country air. The place is not so open. It is more built up than it was. I have heard my father say that at the time he was 1. Very liev. II. G. LiddcU. at Westminster School persons used to shoot snipe in Battersea Fields. There were houses close about the school at that time, as now ; but within a short distance 21 June 1SG2 you could get into the open fields. I think that the ■ ■ ■■ — greater care and attention which parents pay to sani, tary matters is the reason, and almost the sole reason- for the decline of Westminster school. 8. Have you re.ison to believe that the attention of parents has been directed particularly to the locality of the school as being inconvenient ? — Very great reason. I constantly had parents coming to me with the full purpose of sending their sons, either from old Westminster associations or from the advantages that boys can obtain at the school and the chances of going to Trinity or Christ Church ; but when they saw the place, iu a great many cases, the parents altered their intentions. 9. And has that been the case even on the part of parents whose fathers have themselves been educated at Westminster, and who, consequently, had a kindly recollection of the school ? — It was not on their part from what they saw, because they knew it from their own recollection. But many old West- minsters did not send their sons, as a matter of fact. 10. Then the greater part of the boys sent during your time were not the sons of old Westminsters ? — A very large portion certainly were not. I will not undertake to say the greater part ; but a very large proportion consisted, I think, of the sons of poorer men, to whom the advantages offered by the school were a gre.at object. But the old con- nexion of the school with great families has gradually ceased to exist. Some gentlemen have still lingered on. The late Duke of Richmond continued to send his sons to the end. Some few of the old connexions remain, but on the v.-hole the great connexions of the school have ceased. 11. W^hat would be the effect of this diminution in the numbers at Westminster on the relations of the school with Christ Church. Is it in your capacity of Dean that you have been led to make these observations ? — The effect has been most marked. In former days the Westminster boys supplied Christ Church with some of the best men on the student's list, — almost all the tutors were Westminsters ; but for many years past they have sent us very few tutors. Indeed I believe we have 3D S9i PUBLIC SCHOOLS COMMISSION: — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. WEST- MIXSTEK. Very liei: H. O. Liddclt. i\ June 18G2. only had two such within my memory, and now there are none, and very few in prospect, although the Westminster studentships are much more valuable than other studentships. 12. Can you state the value of these student- ships ? — The value of a studentship at the present moment is 100/. a year (besides rooms), hekl for seven years; and they are to rise to 120/. ; besides which there is a benefaction of the late Bishop of St. Asaph (Dr. Carey), divisible amongst them, wliich will give them from 50/. to 100/. more. 13. {Mr. Vaughan.) 501. a piece? — Yes. Sup- posing there to be 12 in residence, each might have 50/. more apiece. 14. {Lord Clarendon.) That would be 140/. a year, with a room apiece ? — Yes ; 150/. at present, and ultimately 170/. The statement appears in page 12 of the Head Master's evidence, 13, subdivision 1. 15. In wliat manner are the Westminster boys elected to the studentships and scholarsliips ? — They are elected by an examination before examiners, one of whom is appointed by the Master of Trinity, one by myself, and one by the Dean of Westminster. These examiners report to us. We come up to West- minster 10 days before Whitsuntide, wlien we see the candidates, and liave them before us for a short viva voce examination. They are finally ar- ranged in order of merit, and those boys wlio stand first on the list have the option of going to Trinity, or Christ Church just as they please. 16. You liave no option about taking them ? — Not unless they are below the mark, or there is anything against their character. 17. Is the examination of a severe character, so as to test the abilities of the boys ? — Certainly. 18. If they pass their examination to the satisfaction of the examiners, they are admitted, I presume ? — Yes. 19. The choice is restricted, is it, from the smallness of the number ? — Yes. That is, the choice of those elected from the rest of the school into col- lege is thus restricted. 20. But if you get men who really are well qualified, it does not signify very much whether the choice is restricted ; that is to say, whether lliey come out from a large number or a small one ? — No. only if you have a larger number to choose from, you are sure to have a better chance of a good choice. The fact is, that now, with a small number, we do get few good boys. 21. Do you think that Christ Church is prejudiced by that fact ? — I have not the least doubt of it. 22. Then you have probably reflected upon some means that might be available for remedying this state of things, which certainl}- appears to bo one that ought, if possible, to be remedied ? — I think the only remedy would be to increase the number of scholars in the school. 23. And you see no way of increasing the number in the school except by removing it to a better situation ? — No. 24. You think that the cause of diminution is in the locality, and that removing the school is the only alternative ? — The only other alternative would be making it a large day school, something like King's College School, but in that case you would incur the danger of its entirely ceasing to be a public school in the common sense of the word. Yet that is the only other alternative I can see. 25. Have you ever considered the objections which exist to tlie removal of the school ? — The objections appear to be sentimental mainly. 26. {Lord Devon.) Do you not think there are pecuniary reasons ? — I do not think tlie pecuniary reasons would be insuperable if they were faced by pers^ons willing to deal with the subject. 27. {Lord Clarendon.) First, as to the senti- mental objection. Do you think that it is general Has it great weight ?— With certain persons it has. 28. These sentimental objections prevail to a con- siderable extent ?— Yes at the general meetings that v/ere held on the subject, I think I may s'ay that the sirgumeuts were almost wholly of a sentimental kind. I think that at that time the pecuniary point of the question had not been e.xamiued. 29. {Lord Devon.) 'Ihere were no tacts to go upon, I think ? — No, 1 believe not. 30. {I^ord Clarendon.) With reference to the sen- timental objections, those who used the sentimental arguments were really of opinion that the traditions and prestige of the school would be impaired by its removal ; — was not that the reason that was urged for its retention? — Yes ; at the same time I listened in vain for reasons to show that the school could be much raised in numbers, or be restored to its former condition, so long as it remains where it is ; and therefore the only point to determine was whether we were to try to get a large school without the pres- tige alluded to, or were to be content with a small school with whatever prestige there might bo remaining. 31. But with a constantly diminishing prestige it would appear that all the high connexions of the school have left it ? — Almost all. 32. Then with respect to the pecuniary difficul- ties ; they do not appear to you to be insurmountable? — I think not. When we see large schools being esta- blished all over the country without any foundation funds at all, and those schools in a flourishing condition, and good masters got for them, I cannot see why a school which has a great foundation sliould not be re- moved and put into a good situation, even if there were no money in hand for meeting the expenses of removal. 33. Do you think that certain persons in Loudon who have children obtaining the advantages of this school as day scholars would not have reason to com- plain if the school were removed ? — There were very few persons of that class in my time. There were not above 15 or 20 boys of that kind. I do not knov/ what the number is now. 34. {Lord Devon.) I am not aware, whether you are acquainted with the calculations which were made with regard to the e-xpense ? — 'No, I am not. 35. Will you explain, in case of the school being removed, what would be the relations which would still continue to exist according to j'our judgment, between the School and the Ch.apter ? — The Chapter of West- minster ? 36. Yes ? — That would be a subject of consi- deration. There are various ways of dealing with the question. You might have a portion of the school in London, as in the case of Christ's Hospital, and a por- tion in the country. I do not think this would be desi- rable. It would be better, I think, to draft off tho whole. The election might bo held, as it is now, at Westminster. The Dean and Chapter might visit the school from time to time. By these and perhaps other means some of the old associations of the foundation might be preserved. 37. Has it occurred to you, with reference to the removal of the school, that on the face of the statute there appears to be, and many people think that there is, an obligation that the Chapter should retain some school here for the benefit of the children of the manor ? — Yes, I do not know what that means exactly ; perhaps the children of the lessees or tenants ? 38. You have been aware of that objection ? — Yes. 39. Is it not a fact that the Chapter possesses, or lately possessed, land at Chiswick, which land is re- ferred to in the statutes as a place to which the school might be temporarilj' removed in case of pestilence ? — I believe so. It used to be the case. 40. Is that land noAv in the possession of the Chapter ? — I really do not know. With regard to the question of land, the Dean and Chapter of Christ Church hold considerable estates for the benefit of the Westminster students, apart from the corporate property of the Dean and Chapter. Probably, if it could be sho-m that the Westminster students at Christ Church were fully provided for, it would bo possible to obtain power from Parliament to alienate some of this property for the purpose of providing a site for the school. It is so much for the interest even of the Westminster portion of Christ Church, that I con- ceive such application ofpropertymightbe fairly made. 41. That is a new fact which was not mcutiouLd PUBLIC SCHOOLS COimiSSION :— MIXUTES OF EVIDENCE. 395 to u=. Hnve you mentioned that before ? — I Lave mentioned it casually. 42. Is it your opiuion, then, as havinfr been con- nected with Westminster, and now bcinj; Dean of Christ Church, tluit the work of removal, if it take place at all, should take place through the combined operation, or rather the concurrent operation of the two Chaptei's ? — If this could be done it would, I conceive, be very desirable. I 43. Do }ou think that there would be a dis- position on the part of those who have the manage- ment of Christ Church to concur in the removal ; speaking, of course, generally? — I can only speak positively for myself. But I hope that if any mea- sures could be proposed, tending greatly to the advantage and benefit of the school and students, separately and jointly, the Chapter of Christ Church would give the proposals a favourable consideration. 44. (Mr. Vaiighan.) Is there not a good deal of ground on the present site of the establishment, or near to it, that is actually occupied by the school buildings ? — There is a considerable space occupied by the school buildings, between Great Dean's Yard and the College garden. 45. Is there not also Vincent Square ?--.r-Yes, be- sides that there is Vincent Square, a large playground of about 10 acres in extent ; that is all. 46. If the school were to be removed, I suppose the whole of that would beset at liberty ? — I apprehend so. 47. Is it, or is it not the case, that if all the ground you have mentioned were set at liberty, that ground itself would be productive of a very large revenue ? — I have always supposed so. I believe that certain inhabitants of Westminster object to Vincent Squ.ire being occupied b_v buildings ; but I think if they want to have Vincent Square as one of the lungs of Westminster they ought to pay for it. It would be very hard for Westminster school to find lungs for Westminster. 48. Do you think tlie revenue that would be forthcoming from the setting at liberty of so much land and building as you have described would assist in a pecuniary point of view the removal of the school? — I was always under the impression that it would not only assist, but would furnish all the monej' necessary. I have since heard to the contrary from the report of the Committee of old Westminsters, lately appointed to inquire. But I cannot but think that if the property were in the hands of persons who chose to deal freely with it, it would be sufficient. 49. (Lord Clarendon.) You say that the only alternative wo\ild be reducing Westminster school to the same position as King's College school ? — I will not say reducing, but placing it in the same position ; and then it would be a school for day boarders, and altogether altered in its character as a public school. 50. You would perhaps consider that it would not be a benefit either to Westminster or to the com- munity to have such a school as that? — Perhaps not. At all events it would alter tlie character of the school entirely ; the school would cease to be a public school in the common sense of the word. 51. Is there anything you wish to add upon the subject ? — I believe I have stated the principal points that I had to urge. 52. (Lord Devon.) Will you allow me to ask you a question with respect to certain parts of the statutes. You say that in respect of some there is not a strict observance of the actual letter of the statutes. Are the parts to which you refer parts which it is ob- viously impossible, from the change of habits and time, to conform to, or are they observances which you think may be adhered to ? — My impression is, although I do not accurately remember the regur lations, that the parts which are not conformed to are for the most part connected with the ancient forms, and are unsuited to more modern habits. 53. You are not prepared to state to the Com- mission any point in the statutes in which you think there is a want of conformity which ought to be remedied ? —No, I am not. WF.ST- MIKSTEIJ. Very Rev. H. G. LithMl. 54. (Mr. Vaughan.) Have you seen page 101, De stipendiis ? — I have it before me. 55. Perhaps I sliouhl ask you first, whether you have had the opportunity of looking at the accounts in the schedule apiicndcd to the original statutes, which appoints the salaries to the various officers connected 21 June !S6-j with the cathedral. Have you ever had the oppor- tnnity of comparing, and have you actually compared the stipends given to the Dean, the Canons, and the Prebendaries under the statutes, with the stipends given to the schoolmaster and the Queen's scholars ? — I have formerly seen a list of the statutable stipends and allowances. 56. Do you bear in mind the proportion between the salaries given to the Prebendaries and those given to the schoolmaster ? — My impression is that the schoolmaster had more, but I do not exactly re- member the matter. I may be wrong, but as far as I can make it out, the schoolmaster in the original statutes has 19/. lis. Sd. a year allowed him, and the Prebendaries 10/., but I should like somebody to see whether I am making a correct statement. (Dean of Christ Church.) About 39/. is what I used actually to receive. (Mr. Vaughan.) I make the statutable allowances 6/. and 12/. and then 30 shillings and 20 pence. (Mr. Thompson.) Mr. Scott explains it in his evidence. (Dean of Christ Church.) I see from the paper before me that the Head Master is to receive a stipend of 20/. a year, and is to be allowed 19/. \\s, Sd. 57. (Mr. Thompson.) And he receives compensa- tion for meals in the hall ? — I am not aware of that, I received a daily allowance of bread. 58. (Mr. Vaughan.) I will take the items, sepa- rating the ditferent parts. Take the Head Master first ? — The calculation from the statutes is 19/. lis. 8d. 59. What do you make the allowance for the Prebendaries ?— 10/. Os. 8rf. 60. Do you happen to know the allowance which is at present given to the Head Master ? — Yes; it is about 39/. a 3'ear, 61. Do you happen to know the allowances to the Prebendaries ? — I suppose they took this 10/. a year, with any statutable allowances there might be, and then divided the surplus revenue among them- selves, as was the practice (I believe) in all Chapters. 62. When the statutes were originally made, do you suppose it was the case that the same system was pursued ? — I have no doubt that it began very early. 63. You suppose that it existed .at that time ? — I think the surplus revenue began very early, and that they divided it amongst the governing body with- out increasiug the fixed stipends of those who were not members of the Chapter. 64. Do you, in point of fact, consider that there has been any alteration in the relative position of the Prebendaries and the schoolmaster from their statut- able relation ? — Yes, evidently. 65. Have the Prebendaries any advantages now which they had not originally, and in which the schoolmaster does not sh.are ?— Yes, they share in the surplus revenues. 66. And they had not that advantage, you con- sider, originally ? — T suppose not. It is rather an obscure subject, and I cannot tell how early the sur- plus revenue beg.an to accrue, but it appears to have begun at a very early period. There v/as probably some surplus revenue from the very first, and the go- verning body divided it amongst themselves to the exclusion of all others who had fixed money payments appointed to them. 67. Do you think that might hare been done concurrently with the charter ?— It might have been, assuming tliat the expenditure did not absorb the whole of the revenue. 68. In this respect, you do not consider that there necessarily appears to have been any departure from the original intentions of the founder, with regard to 3 D2 39G PUBLIC SCHOOLS COMMISSION : — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. WEST- MINSTER. Very Rev. H. G. LiJJell. 2\ June 18G2. the relative payments of the prebendaries and the schoohnaster ?— The result has been, I suppose.- an alteration of the proportionate sums. 69. If in regard to the surplus revenue, the pre- bendaries now have no more advantage over the .schoolmaster than they Iiad originally, I do not .«ee liow the schoolmaster is in a dift'erent position to that in which he was originally ? — The difterence in the two positions is this, that liis income has remained fixed at what is now a small sum, whilst the incomes of tlie prebendaries gradually increased to a large sum. 70. That they have in fact had possession of an income which has improved, and which, in its nature, was such as could improve, while the schoolmaster's income was such that in its nature it never could imjirove ? — That is so, I apprehend. 71. Does that apply to the under schoolmaster, and also to the scholars ? — It does to the under master, but not so much to the scholars, because a great part of their advantages consists in the food and lodging that is found for them. In their case it is not a money payment ; and inasmuch as food is now much more expensive than it was then, there is a much larger sum spent upon them now than there was originally. 72. Do you know whether the practice of feeding the scholars has been continually kept up, or has there been any interruption until a late time ? — I am not aware that there has been. 73. Feeding them gratis, I mean ? — I am not aware of any interruption. 74. Do you know whether it is provided under the statutes that the Queen's scholars should be furnished with instruction gratuitously ? — I do not think it is expressly provided, but I think it is implied. 75. Do you think the stipends given to the Head Master and the other masters, were intended to include the expense of instructing the Queen's scho- lars ? — That was always my opinion. 76. Has it been the case within your memor}', or within the time with which you are acquainted lustorically, that the Queen's scholars have had to pay for their instruction ? — Yes, they have had to pay, and the sum has been increased. They had to pay in times long past. There are accounts of a scholar in Busby's time remaining, which sliow tliat they paid in his days. 77. That was very early ? — Yes. AVe find in the Alumni Westmonasterienses (p. 218, ed. 1852), an account kept by a boy of his expenses at West- minster school, from which it will be found that the Queen's scholars paid fees to the two masters. These "were small at that time, and they appear to have been continually raised until they reached 17 guineas a year. 78. Have they not in recent times been still more than that ? — I think not. 79. Have there not been privileges granted in recent years, which they did not possess before ? Yes, in ihe year 1846. Up to the year 1846 the boys were obliged to find their own breakfasts, and to attach themselves to boarding-houses at a considerable expense ; the expense, I think, amounting to nearly 30/. a year ; but iu the year 1846 an arrangement was made, by which they were relieved from these payments entirely. Referring to a former question (80), there was, so far, an interruption of the gratis feedin"-. 80. Do you think in that respect that there was a restoration of what might be called their statutable privileges so far ? — Quite so. 81. It is stated in page 5 of the Head Master's evidence, that there is a payment made for instruc- tion in the shape of tuition, of fees to the amount of 17 guineas a year ?— Yes, 17 guineas. 82. And I find that there were 10 guineas paid for corrections before that year, " a sort of private tuition," now taken otF. The amount which the Dean and Cliapter have taken off, as paid to the boarding- houses, he quotes at 24 guineas, so that there were 34 guineas in all taken off from these payments. At the same time, they were charged a sum every year for the building and furnishing and fitting of the new build- ings attached to the college ? — That charge has now ceased. The debt has been paid off, and they are no longer charged with that, but they were charged eight or ten years before it ceased. 83. {Mr. Thompson.) The Queen's scholars were ? — Yes. 84. {Mr. Vaughan.) Do you think that at the pi'esent moment they are actually restored to the privileges which the statutes intended to confer upon them ; that is to say, entirely restored ? — I think the statutes contemplated their receiving instruction for nothing, and except upon that point (if that is to be excepted), I should think they are entirely restored. 85. {Lord Clarendon.) If you will look at page 6, you will see in tlie second paragraph that the Head Master states that " the school had no share in " the dividends, so that anything spent upon it was " so much deducted from the private incomes of " those who decided upon the expenditure ; and " although I gratefully acknowledge the liberal spirit " in which the present Chapter have dealt with the " school of late, I cannot avoid stating my conviction, " that it is most important for the welfare of the " school that in any re-adjustment of the property, " these mistakes should not be repeated. No basis " can be a right one, which does not contain within " itself some adaptation to the changes which time " may bring " ? — I quite concur in that remark. 86. Do you agree with those remarks resi)ectii]g the liberal spirit with which the present Chapter has dealt with the scholars ? — Yes. I think their condi- tion has been made as good as it could be in tlieir present locality. I really do not think there is much to desire, with respect to their present condition. 87. You do not think there is anything addi- tional that can fairly be demanded of the Dean and Chapter, towards carrying out the statutes in their spirit more liberally than they have done ? — In respect to the boys, I think not. The question of tlie tuition fees has been taken out of their hands by the Eccle- siastical Commissioners. I do not consider that they are in any way liable for that. The whole manage- ment has been taken out of their hands, and I am of opinion, in concurrence with some others, that the Ecclesiastical Commissioners, if any one, ought to provide for these tuition fees. When I was Head Master, I induced the late Dean (Dr. Buckland) to bring the matter before the Commissioners, shewing the inadequacy of the salaries of the Head Master and under master, and asking for an augmentation, in order that the tuition fees paid by the Queen's schohirs might be abolished or reduced. But the application was refused. 88. Pie applied to the Ecclesiastical Commis- sioners, on tlie score of the Dean and Chapter being deprived of that portion of the income ? — On account of their no longer having any control over the dis- posal of their revenues. 89. {3Ir. Thompson.') There are now stipendiary payments to the Dean and part of Chapter ? — Yes. 90. {Lord Clarendon.) Did they mean that the increase should come out of the funds in the hands of the Dean and Chapter ? — No, not out of funds in the hands of the Dean and Chapter, but that it should come out of the corporate property, the proceeds of which were iu the hands of the Ecclesiastical Commis- sioners. 91. And which cannot be appropriated otherwise than is determined by the Ecclesiastical Commis- sioners, without their consent ? — So I apprehend. 92. The actual number of the foundation scholars is fixed by the statutes at 40, is it not ? — Yes ; 40. 93. And that number has never been exceeded ? ' — No. 94. And there is no intention of increasing it, I suppose ? — I have never heard the subject mentioned by any one. 95. What is the reason that from 1841 to 1847, they fell below the statutable number ? — Because there wei-e not in the school candidates sufficient to supply tlie places. PUBLIC SCHOOLS COMMISSION: — MINCTES OF EVIDENCE. 96. Not caiididates in the school ? — No one can be elected into the college who has not been a member of the school for one year before, and there were not candidates suiKcieut to supply the vacancies. I thinlc that in 1846 there were 17 vacancies in the college. 97. The number of vacancies was so large that you refrained from filling them up ? — Yes, I refrained from filling them up, which I find was not statutable ; but I had no statutes to go by. 98. You ought to have filled them up ? — If there were candidates. 99. Tliere were candidates ? — I think I may fairly say tiiere were not fit candidates for the wliole number of places ; still, I believe I might have filled up more places than I did. 100. From the year 1848 downwards, there have been no vacancies, I believe ; the number has been well kept up ? — Yes, more than kept u]), because we have always had prte-electi to fill up places vacated by any who went away within the year. 101. Did you consider, when electing to the foundation, that it was necessary to be sure that the parents were in want of the assistance ? — No inquiries were made whatever. 102. Does it not rather appear from the statutes, that it was not the sons of people in easy circumstances who were to have the beuefit of the school ? — As I have said, I had not the statutes in my hands, and I followed tlie practice which I found existing. 103. Then it was not thought necessary to insti- tute any inquiry ? — No such inquiries had been made by my predecessors to my knowledge. 104. Did you make an annual visitation, — a visi- tation in the proper sense of the terra, — an inquiry into the condition of the school ? — I introduced the practice, — as I still say, not having the statutes in my hands, — at the time of the election every year, of bringing before the Dean of Westminster any of the boys amongst the 40 who I thouglit deserved cen- sure, to be reprimanded formally and sometimes to be displaced in their elections. The 40 boys are divided into four elections, 10 in each being tlie normal number. Their places used to bo immutably fixed, being determined from the time they got into the college till they were elected to the university. That was the practice as I found it, with rare exceptions. I began to vary the places to some extent, and any boys who were extremely idle, or who deserved blame in any marked wa}', I brought before the Dean at the election, displaced them, and put others over their heads. I think that had a good effect, and the present Head Master has carried out the system further ; and this year he has proposed to the electors as a body, — not to the Dean of Westminster only, but to the electors as a body, — to receive an annual report of the boys in each election. 105. Did you bring these boys before the Dean as considering j-ourself obliged to do so ? — No. 106. Merely to give greater importance to your act ? — Merely for that purpose. 107. We are told that the candidates are examined by the electors, the Dean of Westminster, the Dean of Christ Church, aud the Master of Trinity, at their annual visitation of tiic school. I suppose that visi- tation is more of a formal character than anything else ? — Nothing more, and, I believe, it has not been anything more from time immemorial. 108. There is no real visitation of the school. I believe that the Queen is the visitor according to the statutes ? — Yes ; and the right of visitation has been exercised at least once. 109. When was that?— In the year 1846. 110. But virtually there is no visitation of the school ? — None that I know of. 111. VV'ill you tell us what the system of exami- nation is which is conducted by the Head blaster. Do the boys put questions to each other. Will you tell us the usual form of examination ? — It is a form ivhieh partakes somewhat of the nature of the old academical disputations. It is called the Challenge. WEST- MINSTEU. Very licv. H. G. Lidikli. All the candidates for vacant places in college arc presented to the master in the order of their forms ; there were commonly between 20 and 30 from the fourth form upwards. The two lowest boys come up before the Head Master, liaving prepared a certain portion of Greek epigram and Ovid's Meta- 21 June 18C5 morphoses, which has been set them a certain number — of hours before. In preparing these passages they have the assistance of certain senior boys, who are called their " helps." The lower of the two boys is the Challenger. He calls on the boy whom he chal- lenges to translate the passage set them, and if he can correct any fault in translating takes his place. The upper boy now becomes the challenger, and proceeds in the same way. When the translation is finished, the challenger (whichever of the two boys happens to be left in that position) has the right of putting questions in grammar ; and if the challengee cannot answer tliem, and the challenger answers them cor- rectly, the former loses his place. They attack each other in this way till their stock of questions is ex- hausted. The first challenge is called the unlimited challenge, in which they may ask any number of questions they like. These questions are all in grammar, and sometimes the boys were so well pre- pared that I have known two boys go on until 9 o'clock at night, having begun early in the morning. After this unlimited challenge, by which a clever boy, who is low on the list, may get to the top, what is called the limited challenge began, in which the questions are limited to a certain number, the chaUenge ceasing after these questions were exhausted. Of course, a great deal de)iended upon the ability of the boys, and also on the ability of the " helps," who could train an inferior boy so as often to enable him to take places beyond his merit and position. The " helps" stand by during the challenge, and act as counsel to their " men," in case there be any doubt as to the correct- ness of a question or answer. The Head Master sits as moderator, and decides the point at issue. 112. Did they retain the places which they so took ? — They retained them until the next chal- lenge, that is, till it had run through the whole number, after which it began at the bottom again. They were some weeks or months beforehand preparing for the challenge. It was very hard work, becauseevery one of them had his usual school work to do besides. 113. Ho-.v long did that challenge last? — From six to eight weeks in the year. 114. Six to eight weeks consecutively? — Yes; it ended about a month before Rogation Sunday, and began some eight weeks before that. There was a short interval at Easter. 115. Then the places which they obtained in the last challenge they retained till the beginning of the next year ? — Tlicn retained them so long as they remained at school. The challenge was for those who were trying to get admission upon the foundation. When once on the foundation these 10 boys retained their places till they were presented to the electors for the university ; and during the whole four years that they remained on the foundation, they retained the places which the challenge had given them. 1 16. These places were very important to them ? — Very important indeed. 117. To give them pre-election? — To give them the position in which they appeared before the electors at the election to the university. But it did not determine the election. 118. It did not determine the order in which the election took place finally ? — No ; only the position in which they appeared before the electors ; but if there were a doubt between two boys, the one who had his place before the other would be chosen. 119. Did not practically the captains of those who were so placed go to Christ Church ?— I believe so, generally, in former days ; but it was not always so in my time. 120. Can you say from your own observation what was the practical result of this system of challenging? — It had many advantages. It brought the young 3D3 59S rUELIC SCHOOLS COMJIISSION :— MINUTES OF EVIDEN'CE. WEST- MINSTER. Very Itei: II. G. Liddell 21 June 1862. boys together anJ introduced relations between the seniors and the juniors of a very praiseworthy cha- racter. The seniors from being teachers often be- came protectors to the juniors, and a connexion was initiated wliicli often continued through life, and was often of great benefit to the parties connected. Another advantage was that it made the ekler boys keep up tlieir grammar, and gave them habits of teacliing and organization which were most valuable. On the other hand, it very often happened that when boys had gone tlirough this severe trial they relaxed into idleness, and the fixing their places for four years had a very bad effect. 121. {Lord Devon.) It was not their places in the school that Avcre fixed immutably, I suppose. These school positions would vary in each class ? — Just so. 122. It was only their positions in college that were fixed ? — Yes, and consequently the position in which they appeared before the electoi-s. 123. {Mr. )'aughan.) In practice, should you say there was more activity in the lower part of the school than in the upper ? — Do you mean among those who were not yet on the foundation ? 124. Yes ? — There was more activity in prepara- tion. The two periods or times in which that activity was shown were when the boys were trying to get elected on to the foundation and when they were trying to get elected off to the university. Between these" two periods there was a great stagnation. 125. Do you think there was a great want of stimu- lus to exertion in the intermediate period between the time when a boy was trying to get on to the foun- dation and the time when he had to prepare for his election to Oxford or Cambridge ? — I think so. The only stimulant that remained was the form stimulant. But having worked so hard to get into college and to get a place in the year's election, which could not bo altered, there was a great tendency to relaxation. There was, of course, still the stimulus of the daily form-work to keep them up, but after the election there was great reaction. They worked very hard. They had been working long before for the challenge, and after they got into college for the most part the boys became idle for a time. 126. Do you think you have pointed out to the Commission all the causes of the stagnation ? — I think 60. I have no doubt that in former days, when the fagging system prevailed more completely and when all the boys lived together, there were many other causes ; but very little of that remained in my time. In 1846, separate studies or living rooms were pro- vided for the senior and junior boys. 127. You said you thought the small number at Westminster was one of the reasons why the school did not so much distinguish itself at Oxford as some others. Do you think that in proportion to its num- bers it distinguishes itself in a satisfactory manner ? — Well, tiie boys whom we get do their part pretty well. IMany of them work very hard ; they are extremely well-conducted ; but few are boys of such ability as to enable them to gain the highest aca- demical honours. 128. You do not think it would be remedied by any better internal arrangement? — I do not think so. I think the prizes now offered are quite sufficient and that no increase in their value will much avail. 129. I think you state that you were at the Charterhouse. Comparing Westminster with the Charterhouse school, is the Charterhouse very diflPerent in point of numbers from Westminster? No, I believe it is about the same. 130. Can you say that the Charterhouse school distinguishes itself more or less than Westminster? —I should not like to answer that question without inquiry. 131. (Mr. Thompson.) Speaking as being from Christ Church, and looking to the literary proficiency of your college, would you prefer a literary con- nexion with Charterhouse to a connexion with Westminster?— We have had very few Charterhouse boys for some years. The present Head Master i.s a Cambridge man; and we have had so few of his boys that I have not had the means of comparing them fairly with Westminsters. 132. You would rather not give an opinion on the subject ? — I have not had the means of forming one. 133. {Mr. Vaughan.) With regard to the questions that are put by the hoys, to which you have referred in the system of challenges, do the senior boys assi.'^t the juniors in putting the questions ? — They assist them beforehand in preparing the questions. 134. When these questions are put by the juniors^ have they been prepared by the assistants or helps? — Yes. 135. And haw are these helps selected ? — By the boys fhem.selves. 1.36. Would it not very often occur, as the ch,?- ractcr of the upper hoys was pretty well known, that two junior boys would wish to have the same help?— Yes. 137. How is that difficulty settled ? — When a boy, who was much sought after as a help, had his number full, he could take no more. 1 38. Then they were competent to take more than one ? — Yes. 139. How many would each take ? — That depended entirely on himself. It was a complete imperhim in imperio. 140. Was it a provision that tended to equalize the chances of the candidates, there being many that had the same helps ? — Certainly. 141. How could it work, if there were many having the same helps who were at liberty to prompt the same questions, and to give the boys instructions in those questions ; were they not all equally prepared in (hat way ? — In that case the readiest boy and the boy with the best memory had the advantage. The helps do not "prompt" while the challenge is going on, but only assist in preparing beforehand. 142. And I suppose that that again, to a certain degree, equalized the contest ? — Yes, the best can- didates generally got the best helps, the senior boys themselves bein" anxious to have good pupils. 143. {Lord Clarendon.) Mr. Scott has stated that formerly the general system of private tuition existed at Westminster, something like the Eton sj'stem. Will you turn to page 12, answer 14, in which he says, "Formerly a general system of private tuition " existed here, which appears to me to have been " akin to the Eton system. My predecessor. Dr. " Liddell, altered this, and the practice of private " tuition had been in great measure discontinued " until this year, when I have in a few instances " introduced it again, finding that it was scarcely " possible for some boys to do the work of the form " in which from age they had to be placed without '' special assistance and supervision." AVhat were the defects that you discovered in that system that made you alter it ? — I had been brought up under a different system. At Charterhouse we had no pri- vate tuition. When I became Head Master of West- minster, all the assistant masters were new, and none of them had been brought up under that sj'stem ; and it being a great object to reduce tlie expenditure of the boys to the lowest possible figure, on full consideration, we determined to abolish private tuition, or rather not to renew it, because it had become very otiose, and very little good seemed to have been derived from it. When Mr. Scott says that he intro- duced it again, I should add that whenever a back- ward boy required assistance, I always allowed him a private tutor. 144. If the system were an otiose one it must have been in the manner in which it was carried out. Do you think that the system of private tuition neces- sarily tended to idleness ? — No ; all that I say is that I did not find it in a satisfactory state. 145. And you thought it better to do away with it altogether than to endeavour to reform it ? — Yes, on grounds of economy chiefly. 146. Otherwise you would not have done so ? — There is no doubt that if you had tutors enough and PUBLIC SCHOOLS COMMISSION: — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 390 masters enough, there is a considerable advantage in it ; but unless you have a large staff, I tiiink that it gives the masters more work than they can do, and impairs their energies. I think on the whole with a limited staff of masters you get more work done without it. It also has a tendency to favouritism ; for tutors, I imagine, are apt to pay more attention to the best boys. 147. Do they not do so when they arc taught in the school as well ? — When they are taught in form it is not so easy, I think. 148. Wiien you had the system of private tuition in action it rather increased the work of the school ? — I never had it in action ; but it would have done so, I think. 149. Botli the work of the boy and the responsibi- lity of the master ? — It laid a heavy burden on the master. 150. {Lord Devon.) Is there any reason for thinking that if the system of private tuition were carried on it would be an advantage in advancing the boys in their scholarship ? — Probably there is. 151. Would it be also an advantage as a means of developing any peculiar aptitude which a boy might evince in a particular branch of education, such as mathematics, Greek or Latin ? — If he had a teacher qualified specially to. teach such a branch it would. 152. Would not the fact of an intelligent gentle- man being in constant communication with a boy in the relation of a private tutor be very apt to imbue his mind with a particular kind of knowledge for which he showed an aptitude without specific instruc- tion ; and would not the mere fact of such constant intercourse be likely also to imbue his mind with notions of gentlemanlike conduct and propriety of de- meanour ? — If there were a small number of pupils and plenty of time to devote to each of them, no doubt it would. 153. At Eton and Harrow a private tutor is con- sidered to stand towards a boy in loco parentis, so that he may watch his character, treat him as a friend, communicate with his parents and so forth, in any matter that is of interest to his moral training as well as his intellectual attainments and classical acquire- ments. Do j'ou think that the master and assistant masters at Westminster school stand in relation to the boy, similar to that ? — That was done by the heads of the boarding houses. There was not a large number of boys in any of the boarding houses, and the persons who stood in loco parentis to the boys were the boarding house masters, who fulfilled their duties exti'emely well. 154. {Mr. Thompson.') What was the fea of the private tutors ? — I think it was 10 guineas. 155. That you stopped entirely ? — Yes. 156. Except in very special cases? — Yes, and it was not so much then. 157. The ordinary school fees have been reduced? — They were somewhat reduced. 158. But not the whole sum ? — No. 159. You do not recollect how much ? — No, I do not remember, because there was aa addition made on the score of mathematics and arithmetic which were introduced into the school, and when they were introduced they were comprised iu the general fees. There was also an addition introduced for French. In point of fact, it was rather a complicated arrange- ment, and I do not carry it in my mind. 160. You do not know what the fees were before there were private tutors ? — No, but I have no doubt Mr. Weare can tell you. 161. {Mr. Vaughan.) You were educated yourself under a system in which there were no private tutors? —Yes. 162. Do you think that there was any advantage connected with the absence of any help from private tutors ? — I think that among certain classes of boys increased teaching does harm, but with the mass of boys, I should think not. To boys of a certain vigour, temper, and energy of character, I do not think pri- vate tutors are an unmixed good. 163. Do you think that the mass of boya as you knew them in the Charterhouse suffered in the prepa- ration of their lessons from the want of private tutors ? — No, I do not think so ; I think the form- system there was very good. 164. Do you think it threw them on their own resources and on their grammai r — Yes, I think so. 165. So as to make them analyze the language for themselves, and thus become better scholars ? — The manner in which they were taught was very much by the boys themselves. The monitorial system wag introduced, and the teaching of the form was in some respects as good as it could be. We were vciy well grounded indeed. 166. Did you find, when you got to Christ Church, that as a Charterhouse man not having had the assist- ance of a private tutor you had rather an advantage, or did you experience any disadvantage from having had to rely chiefly on yourself in learning your work ? — Well, I think with regard to tlie grammar, that I generally found myself able to answer questions better than most of the men in the lecture. 167. Do 3'ou attribute it at all to the system of self help ? — Perhaps ; but I do not know that I can say much upon that point. 168. (^Lord Lyttellon.) No boarding houses are kept except by the masters of the school, are there ? — Not now. 169. Therefore, so far as I understand the matter, as it relates to the whole question of the moral superintendence of the boys, all the benefits of private tuition are obtained just as fully as they are at Eton or Harrow? — I think they are obtained very fully. 170. The parents would look to the boarding-house masters for an account of the general conduct and character of the boj's ? — They did so. 171. They would wish tlieir boys to consult the boarding-house masters in any difficulty ? — Yes ; they did so, and I think the boarding-house masters were actuated by the best possible feeling, and did their dutj' fully in that respect. 172. Not more than 30 of the scholars were iu any of the liouses of the boarding-masters ? — No one, I think, had more than 30, and for the most part they had less. ■173. {Lord Clarendon.') Mr. Scott says, in answer to question 19, page 13, "The competitive examinations " for the army are those which affect us most. Boys " are taken away and sent to special training establish- " ments to prepare them for the trial. In some ways " such a change offers, for the time, a real stimuluj " to industry, from the keen rivalry amongst the " candidates, all aiming at one object, and the inces- " sant supervision of a master. If a boy is only " submitted to this hothouse process for a short time, " it may not do him any permanent injury, but the " Committee who superintend the examinations " wrote last year to me, and no doubt to other head- " masters also, regretting the extent to which boys " were withdrawn from the public schools to prepare " for these examinations, and asking whether some " means could not be devised of ottering such oppor- " tunities at the schools themselves as to retain the " candidates." Did that question come very much under your consideration when you were at West- minster ? — What Mr. Scott complains of had begun. 174. That boys intended for the army were taken awav earlier than they would otherwise be, in order that" they might be placed in preparatory establish- ments ? — It had just begun, but only just. It had certainly not gone to any great extent. 175. No complaints liad reached you from the examiners ? — None whatever. 176. Do you think that this suggestion of the Committee of examiners should be adopted ; namelj', that of keeping boys at school and fitting them for examinations, without sending them to preparatory schools ? — I should think that would depend very much on the examiners and the naiure of the ex- amination. If the examiners confined the examina- tions to a particular curriculum, training schools 3D4 WEST- MINSTEIt. Vcnj rhich the boys have in going to the country. The bounds, I believe at present are very mucli confined, are they not ?— Yes ; except the cricket-ground of 8 acres. 316. Perhaps you could say what the bounds are, they do not come through the Sanctuary archway, I believe ? — No, except to the glover's across. They have permission to go there. 317. Do they go across the Thames ? — The bounds are Westminster Hall and the Courts inclusive ; tlie street .along the river bank, and the streets le.iding to Vincent Square ; that is the main streets, not the side streets. 318. By a particuhir route at all times of the day, I suppose ? — At all times of the day when they are, so to say, off duty. In play hours a boy may take a walk over Battersea Bridge with le.ive ; indeed, they go across the bridge as a common Sunday walk. 319. Do you think the result of a removal into the country would be a large increase in the number of oppidans, and if there were such larger increase would there be a better chance for selection to the college than can be obtained when there is only a limited number ? — If that result should follow, un- doubtedly there would. 320. You would have a larger number of competi- tors, would you not, if there were a greater number of oppidans ? — If a greater number entered in con- sequence of a removal into the country, no doubt that would be so. PUBLIC SCHOOLS COMMISSION: — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 405 321. {Lord LijtlcUon.) You say that tlic question of the amount of aecoinnioJiition to the boarders might become a serious one some time or another. WouKl that be a question with which the Dean and Chapter wouhl liave anything to do ? — I should imagine so. 322. You think they would take cognizance of the int!urticient accommodation to boarders as dis- tinguished from scholars? — It would depend on whetlicr they were bound by statute to take such cognizance. 323. {Mr. Vaughan.) Do you know whether, according to the original statutes, it was considered the duty of the Dean and Chapter to take boarders ? — That is the case, I believe. I suppose that is the meaning of the term pensionarii. 324. (Lord Lyttelton.) What do you understand is the present position of the question of removal, because we know that that was a subject that was regularly investigated some time ago? — I am not aware. 32.5. In what condition is it now ? — The meetings to which you allude were entirely of a preliminary character, and nothing has, I believe, been decided. 326. Do 3'ou know any details about the atten- dance of the boys in Parliament. Do you know how many in your time attended and manifested any in- terest in the debates in the House of Commons ? — • When 1 was a boy at Westminster, generally about six of the seniors attended every day. 327. Do you mean when you were there as a master or as a boy ? — When I was there as a master the attendances were, perhaps, more than when I was there as a boy. 328. How many do you think attended as a ge- neral rule ? — Eight or nine each day. Perhaps some- times there might be a little difficulty in the admission, and then the juniors would give place to the seniors. 329. {Lord Devon.) What seats did they occupy ? — They were put into the back seats of the members when I was a boy, but now I believe they sit in the peers' seats. {Lord Devon.) No, I think they sit at the back of the seats usually occupied by the peers when any are present. 330. (Lord Li/llellon.) Did you know of any attending the House of Lords ? — Sometimes, although not so generally as the House of Commons. 331. When you were a master did they ever look in ? — I used to look into the House of Lords when I was a boy, but perhaps the admission is not so easy now. 332. {Lord CUirendon.) The Chapter have con- siderable benefices, have they not ? — I do not know how many, but they have the patronage of a certain nuniber of benefices. 333. Are the masters of the school considered eligible for the preference to those livings? — It has reached me that the Canons consider the masters have no claim to any preference to such benefices, but my predecessor was, in the third year of his incumbency, appointed to a living in the city, — Christchurch, Newgate Street, — as asort of compensation for private boarders being taken away from him. He had the sous of Lord Lansdowne and certain peers who were his private pupils, and it was held that his duties to the college should be considered first, and that his private pupils would rather interfere with those duties. The private pupils were therefore discontinued, and in order to make him some compensation he was ap- pointed to the living. I speak merely what I under- stood of the history of the transaction ; but as a matter of fact I know that in the third year of his mastership he was appointed vicar of Christchurch, Newgale Street. 334. {Mr. Thompson.) Did he retire from the school ? — No, he held it with his mastei'ship : that is the onl}' case, except that of Dr. Williamson, the Head Master, who, in the year 1850, was appointed to the vicarage of Pershore, some few years after he had resigned. 33-5. (Lord Lytldlon.) Then the Chapter ac- AVEST- MINSTER. Hen. T. W. Weare. knowledge no obligation at all with respect to the preferment of the masters to their benefices ? — No; as I understand. 336. {Mr. Thompson.) By an Act of Parliament, when the present generation of Canons goes out, the Head Master will have a claim, I imagine, either after 21 June 1862, or before the Minor Canons ? — That I do not know. I — may take the opportunity of saying that the statu- table status of the Masters at Westminster is before the Minor Canons. 337. It wiU depend on the way in which they are named in the Act of Parliament. There is an Act of Parliament which provides for a different arrange- ment of the patronage when all the Canons now alive have gone out ? — I am not aware. 338. (Lord C/arendon.) With respect to the ad- vantages enjoyed by the foundationers, m.-xy I ask you what is the meaning of this, that e.ich scholar was ob- liged, within a certain limited term to find a tutor who was responsible for him, not responsible for his tuition. I apprehend responsible for what he had to pay, was it not ? — I believe some such arrangement is to be found in the statutes, but I am not aware of it in detail. 339. Does it exist now ? — It has become quite obsolete now. {Mr. Vaughan.) It appears in the original statutes to be somewhat uncertain what description of person a tutor was. {Mr. Thompson.) The rule is exactly the same at Cambridge. 340. {Mr. Vaughan.) Did he have a personal and not a scholastic care ? — Yes, I believe so. 341. (Lord Clarettdon.) Do you not consider that the foundationers, that is to say, the scholars, were intended by the statute to receive their education gratuitously ? — Certainly, so far as I interpret it. 342. But they do not do so ? — A change has taken place within the last year, of the details of which I am not cognizant, by which the Dean and Chapter pay a certain sum to the Head Master. 343. When did they begin to charge the founda- tion scholars for tuition? — I cannot say when, but apparently some charge was made at a very early period. It was 13 guineas a 3'ear when I was a boy, and afterwards it was increased to 17 guineas. That is some years ago. 344. So that now the whole amount paid by the foundation scholars is about 34/. a year ? — About that sum. 345. In your judgment that is not in conformity with the statutes, is it ? — No, I conceive the statutes contemplated the boys being supported as to their accommodation and food and education. I will not say clothing, as at the Charterhouse, but their main- tenance, and education. 346. Those charges, more particularly the charge of 17 guineas, are made in direct violation of the statutes ?— Yes, I should say so ; the charge for tuition, the charge for firing, and so on, as in the printed Bill. 347. There is a charge for firing also, is there ? — Yes ; and there is a charge for gas, and for servants, and for tiie college jjorter. 348. All of which you think the boys should be relieved from ? — I should imagine so, unless it is said that the statutes are now inapplicable ; that more is demanded by the young in the present day than was the case in the Elizabethan period ; and that the com- forts of the present day are more than the Dean and Chapter ought to be required to provide. 349. Does not the Dean and Chapter receive more now than formerly ? — Yes ; I was only supposing what may be the argument used against extending the advantages of the Queen's scholars. 350. Would not that be having one set of weights and measures for the Dean and Chapter, and another for the scholars ? — I quite feel the justice of the claim for extending the advantages of the Dean and Chapter to the scholars. 351. Do you know to what extent the advantages of the Dean and Chapter have been extended during 3E 3 406 PUBLIC SCHOOLS COMMISSION: — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. WEST- MINSTER. Uev. T. IF. Weare. 21 June 1S02. the present period ? — I can only speak from hearsay. I have been given to understand that in the year 1825 the average value of a canonry was 1,200/. a year. IMy wife's grandfather was a canon, and I have heard it frequently mentioned that 1,400/. a year was considered a liigh dividend in those days. 352. When was that ? — From 1820 to 1830 ; it was about that period. I have heard it commonly said that 1,400/. a year was considered a high dividend, but I have been told by Mr. Scott, the Head Master, that he believes the canonries to be now 2,300/. and 2,400/. a year. 353. (Lord Clarendon.) There has been no pro- portionate increase made in the advantages enjoyed by tlie scholars at all commensurate with this ? — I should say no connnensurate advantages. There have been increased advantages from time to time. The matter was considered many years ago, and a strong statement was then laid before the Dean, the present Bishop of Ely, on behalf of the college, and he was requested to urge upon tlie Chapter to substitute for the old allowance of a " sheep a day " (which included all the bad joints, — the neck, the breast, and the shoulders,) — legs of mutton, so as to secure each boy a good dinner, together with some other arrangements. 354. Certain kinds of advantages have been granted to the scholars, but it appears to me that a certain sum of money has been taken from them that will more than pay for the advantages which are given to them, and the sum which they pay, and ought not to pay, appears to be about 30/. a year. Is that so ? — Yes ; about 34/ a year. 355. It is said that the Dean and Chapter keep the boys at a cost of about 1,200/. or 1,400/. a year, and this 34/. a year is to liquidate the items of tuition, servants, firing, washing, medical attendance, and what are called college charges in the scheme, if you have had one supplied to you? — I believe that is so. 356. {Mr. Thompson.) Are you aware that the Dean and Chapter at present have large dividends, and that there is only a limited number of canonries to receive them ? — Yes ; and the most recent appoint- ments will receive only a fixed stipend. 357. Your claim then would rather be on the Ecclesiastical Commissioners, inasmuch as they are the recipients? — I understand the large dividend of 2,300/. a year for each canonry is paid over to the respective recipients, they repaying a quarter by an arrangement with the Commissioners. That is what Mr. Scott stated in conversation. 358. {Lord Devon.) The whole of the funds are vested in the Ecclesiastical Commissioners, are they not ? — That I am not aware of. 359. {Lord Devon.) It would seem, therefore, would it not, that tlie complaints should rather be addressed to the Ecclesiastical Commissioners, who have the control of the funds, than the existing Dean and Chapter ? — 360. {Mr. Vaughan.) Are you acquainted with the statutes ? — I have seen them, but I cannot that I am acquainted with them. 361. You do not know the terms on which the instruction is provided in school by the statute ? — No. 362. That it is the duty of the master to teach them the Latin language, Greek, and Hebrew, from the poets and orators, and diligently to examine them? — I do not remember particulars. 363. So that there is under that clause only a right for the scholars to obtain competent instruction in those three languages ? — Yes ; I may take the liberty of mentioning with regard to one of the items that you have read, the subject of instruction in Hebrew, that it has been suspended for some years, and I think with very great disadvantage. 364. Do you know at what time the Hebrew instruction was dropped ?— I cannot say ; I think very recently ; within the last four or five years. 365. Since the time of the present Head Master ? — Yes ; I believe so. 366. {Lord Devon.) As to the question of the rc- say moval of the school, assuming that the school remains where it is, are there any alterations in the premises which you tliink it would be desirable or necessary to make ? — Looking to the probable increase of the scholars and the necessity of erecting new boarding- houses ? 367. Assuming that the school stands at 150 at present. You are aware that some suggestions have been made on the matter ? — I think that any thing that can be done to make Dean's Yard — the two yards — more airy, so as to produce a better circulation of air between them, would be desirable. 368. You think it would be desirable to effect an opening ? — Yes. To remove the small block of building between Great Dean's Yard and Little Dean's Yard, or have it lowered, at all events, and make a fives court there. 369. That would involve the sacrifice of a whole house, would it not ? — Yes, I think so. It may not be worthwhile to incur any considerable sacrifice on that side of the yard ; but increased ventilation would be secured by opening the opposite or eastern side. The removal of the engine house would involve no great outlay, whilst the glimpse aflorded into the College gardens, with its trees and flowers, would much add to the cheerfulness of the place. 370. Under what regulations is the space in Great Dean's Yard now used. It used to be open at all times ? — The boys play there during two terms of the school year. 371. Is it locked up ? — It may be occasionally. 372. Do you think it ought to be kept locked ? — • The boys play there constantly during two terms ; during the summer terra the boys play in Vincent Square at cricket, and during that term it may be locked. 373. {Lord Lyttclton.) Is tbat so always ? — They have a wider range for cricket in Vincent Square, which is eight acres in extent, and it is more attractive. 374. {A Commissioner.) Where do the boys take the water now for boating ; near the House of Com- mons ? — They were promised a Stairs or Hard near the old stairs, but I believe it has not been completed, and practically they are obliged to go by the bridge, or cross the river to Searle's by boats. 375. Where were those stairs to be, at the back of Abingdon Street ? — Yes. 376. Do you think it desirable that there should be some particular place ? — Yes. 377. I suppose the boats come from the other side of the water, from Roberts', as they used to do ?^ Yes. 378. You, I think, were in charge of the gown boys ? — Yes. 379. For a considerable portion of the time? — During the whole of my 20 years' incumbency. I was appointed second master, and one of my special functions was the charge of the college. 380. Did you in your time know considerable alterations and amendments made by the Dean and Chapter ? — Yes. 381. Perhaps you will shortly state what difference there is between now and formerly in that respect ? — In 1841, the college consisted of one room, and in that room they lived by day and slept by night. They studied there and they slept there. There was a separate hall for their meals, and there was a boarding house to which they resorted for their breakfasts, no breakfasts at that time being found by the Dean and Chapter, the boy continuing his con- nexion with the boarding house at which he was, when he was an oppidan, in respect of breakfast and sick-board. 382. Could not a boy be elected at once ? — No, he must have been 12 months in the school prior to admission as a foundationer. In 1846 breakfasts were provided by the Dean and Chapter, and some other changes were made, and the college was then in- creased by the addition of the cloister underneath, PUBIJC SCHOOLS COMillSSIOX: — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 407 which has been convertoJ iuto two large day rooms or studies, with a tliird and smaller room. 383. {Lord Devon.) And you consider the forma- tion of those rooms below a considerable improve- ment ? — Yes. 384. And you think it was cheaply purchased by the sacrifice of tlie cloister ? — It was in every way a great advantage to so convert the cloister. 385. Do you think they require a covered play- ground ? — No, not absolutely. But I think the gym- nasium Mr. Scott has obtained is very useful as a preparation for athletic games of a manly character. 386. Among the other alterations there was that of putting two boys together, for the purposes of studj'. Do you think that is carried as far as it is desirable ? — You mean the small divisions, or boxes, for study in the lower rooms ? (Lord Devon.) Yes. 387. There used to be four divisions, or boxes, formerly, but there are eight or nine now. Do you consider that an advantage ? — Yes. I think they are convenient for study, and a great advantage. 388. With reference to a matter that peculiarly attaches to Westminster, namelj', the annual Play ; what is your opinion as to its propriety, or the expediency of continuing it ? — I should be very sorry, indeed, if the Play were discontinued. 389. Looking to it in respect to the building, does it not lead to the compression of the boys within a limited space ? — It used to do so, and I can recollect when we were actually obliged to sleep under the stage. I am speaking, however, of years ago. Of course there must always be some compression. 390. You think that no practical inconvenience arises from it V — None whatever. I can speak from some years' experience. 391. They knock away a certain number of the partitions, I suppose ? — Yes, a certain number of them are moved away, and the occupants go into the matron's house adjoining. 392. You would not think it absolutely necessary that a separate building should be erected, or a larger room which might serve as a lecture room as well ? — No, I think the present accommodation sufficient for the Play, and it would be throwing away money to erect another building for that purpose. 393. {Mr. Thompson.) You do not think that the moral effect of the Play is bad ? — I do not. 394. What effect has the preparation of the Play on the boys' studies ? — We have not found it to have a bad effect. If we found that the actors fell below the other boys in their examinations during the time that they were preparing for the Play we might at once s.ay that those preparations interfered with them. 395. None but the college boj's take part in the Play, I believe ?— No. 396. And you do not find that they are affected in their ordinary studies by the preparation for the Play ? — Certainly not. 397. Do you think it has a tendency to draw out their powers ? — Yes, I think great advantage is de- rived from the Play in regard to their Latin scholar- ship. They become acquainted with the language and the cadence of colloquial Latin sentences, which is very beneficial, besides other advantages. 398. Have you formed any opinion as to the Latin scholarship of Westminster, is it so good in proportion to the Greek or better than usual ; and can you trace the effect of the Play in the Latin scholarship ? — I have heard compliments paid at Oxford to the construing of Latin by Westminster boys. 399. The actors, I suppose, are required to construe the Play ? — Yes, the whole of the Scholars prepare the play as the subject of the term. 400. That has nothing to do with the acting of it ?— No, it is the subject of study of two-thirds of the scliool, but more especially of those engaged in the acting, and one ef!ect of it, I have been told, is to produce good readers. 401. You think it does good? — Yes. I have heard connnendations of the reading of our boys lioth from Cambridge and Oxford men. 402. You have not heard complaints of bad read- ing at the universities ? — I have heard complaints of 'oad reading, but not of Westminster boys, who are generall}' good readers. 403. {Mr. Vaiighan.) Are you aware on what authority the acting of the Play rests ? — On Royal authority. 404. Are you aware that the Head Master is liable to be fined if a Play is not acted ? — I am not aware. 405. Are you aware on what ground the acting of the Play was instituted ? — Yes, for the teaching of elocution, and also for the intimate knowledge of Latin that it leads to. 406. AVhat was the system of private tuition existing at Westminster, which was done away with by Dr. Liddell ? — It was private tuition of a special character ; it could hardly be called private tuition ; it was simply assistance, twice a week, in the pre- paration of Latin verses. The masters of the houses had a certain number of pupils whom they prepared, and for that ten guineas a year was paid by each boy, which was considered by Dr. Liddell to be unneces- sary. He thought it unnecessary to pay an extra fee for what ought to be considered the school-work, and therefore he put an end to it. 407. {A Commissioner.) Do you think it would be better to do away with the system of private tuition, or to reform it ? — I think some boys who may be idle or backward require private assistance, but as a general rule I think it is detrimental to a boy to have masters over him to assist him in all he does, both as regards the acquirement of scholarship and individual character. It creates a dependent feeling in the boy's mind, which is highly objectionable. 408. Are you aware that that system applies to Eton ? — By hearsay. 409. You would not wish to see that system established at Westminster ? — I should be very sorry to see it. 410. {Mr. Vauffhan.) When the system of private tuition was done away with, I will ask you were those classes of studies which had previously been pursued with the assistance of a private tutor, done more accurately and more diligently in the school than before, and was there more made of them ? — As well done, at least. 411. Did the master in school give and require more attention on this subject from the boys when they were left to their own individual exertions ? — The writing of verses then became an integral part of tho work of each form. Each master of each sepaiato division looked to it afterwards. 412. Had it not been so before? — The tutor of the house prepared the lad with the verses, and it was mere dumb show to give up the copy to the master. 413. It was finally corrected before it was shown up, I suppose? — Yes. It did not show the work of the boy, and it became in great measure a mere formal matter. 414. {Lord Clarendon.) In question 19 you arc asked whether instructions can be given in the course of the ordinary work without supplemental aid to prepare a boy of good ability for a successful career at the university, or in the army, and so on ; do you think that with care and attention a boy can be qualified at Westminster for passing any of those examinations that are now required without undergoing an intermediate training and cramming ? — I am not quite aware in detail what sort of an examination the civil service and army examination is, but I should say that boys who have been under the care of j\Ir. Scott and Mr. ]\Iarshall would be amply prepared. I have known cases in which our boys have met with great success with regard to examinations for the Civil Service and India, when they have gone in for open competition. 415. Without passing intermediate examinations ? 3E4 WEST- MINSTER. liev. T. W. Weare. 21 June 18G2 408 PUBLIC SCHOOLS COIIMISSION : — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. ^vl:sT- MIXSTER. /few. T. W. Vfeare. — After the first year at Oxford and Cambridge, before tlicy have taken their degree, some luive ex- pressed a wisli to go to India, and tliey have gone into the competitive examination and have succeeded. I cannot speak from memory as (o whetlier in all cases 21 June 1862. this success has been achieved prior to the degree. " In the case of one boy it was coincident with his degree, but in another case it was; prior to the degree. 416. There is nothing in the system at Westmin- ster, or in the comjdete occupatioii of the boy's time, that would prevent his being qualified, say, to pass a military examination ? — Certainly not. 417. But there might be that amount of general knowledge to be acquired by him at Westminster that would fit him fur any of these examinations ? — Just so, and to take the best positions in tlie list. 418. I think we might take out Woolwich, because that is a difficult examination ? — I can supply you with a list of those who have gained such distinctions if you think it necessary. 419. I tliink it would be very desirable ? — I would supply it from the Oxford calendar and sup- plement it by my own memory. I think I may mention one matier of importance, and that is with regard to boys who would not have gained a high distinction at the University, that the preparation at Westminster has itself formed a great element of success in their cases, especially in the army ; for in consequence of their aptitude for business, they have recommended themselves to their colonels for that most important office in a regiment, namel}', the adjutancy ; and we have often had the pleasure of remarking that boys whom Ave thought little of as scholars at Westminster have been so promoted. I think I could quote half a dozen instances of such promotions. 420. Has there been any communication between the Head Master and the Committee of Examiners •who regulate the entrance into the army, so as Xo endeavour to learn exactly what would be required of the boys to fit them for that examination ? — I am not aware of anj' such communication. 421. Do you think that the religious and moral training at Westminster is as complete and as good as it can be ? — I think if is. I know that great pains have been taken. I would refer to what I have de- tailed under this head in my answers to Section E. of the tabular scheme of questions. 422. So as to take care of their training and their moral character ? — Yes. 423. Who is it that can be said to be charged with that p.art of the duty towards a boy at Westminster who stands to him there in loco parentis ? — In the case of the Queen's scholars the second master is re- sponsible ; in the ease of the boys in the boarding houses the boarding-house master. On vSundays the duty is out of our hands, and devolves in a great measure on the Canon of the month ; but for many years we have had special school services in the Abbe}', when opportunities are offered of addressing the boys more directly, looking to their particular condition, than if they were miscellaneous members of a large congregation. 424. It would be the second master and the masters of the boarding houses who would endeavour to make themselves acquainted with the individual character of the boy, so as to develope what was good and repress what was bad by admonition and punishment, if ne- cessary, and communicate with his parents ? — Yes. 425. Conscientiously ? — Yes, conscientiously, I can 8ay ; by personal interviews and communication with the boys. I have lived, I may say, almost amongst them, and have on many occasions taken advantage of special opportunities, and especially in cases of sick- ness when their minds are impressible, to influence them for good. 426. It is not comptdsory upon them to attend the Holy Communion ?— It is not, so to say. If the term compulsory can be used it is hardly applicable. But the Statutes require that the Queen's scholars should attend the Holy Communion four times a year in the Abbey. It is the rule that the Queen's scholars receive the Holy Communion at the Abbey and not at their own family churches on the first Sunday of the term, and therefore the master would deny a boy leave of absence even though he should be going home to receive Holy Communion with his family. He would be required to attend at the Abbey. 427. Even if he were going to receive it with his family ? — Yes, by rule the master would insist on the Queen's scholars receiving it at the Abbey. At the same time it is considered a duty and it is cheerfully complied with, and the idea of compulsion is never felt. It may be a deprivation to a boy that he is unable to join his family circle while attending the Holy Communion, but he regards it otherwise as a duty to be performed at the Abbey, as a member of the college. 428. The sermons are preached by the Canons ? — l"es. 429. But they are preached to large congregations exclusive of the boys, and therefore they are not addressed to the boys themselves specially ? — Yes, generally ; sometimes the school is partially ad- dressed. 4.30. But now there is a special morning service established ? — Yes ; it is now many years since a school service was established. Dr. Liddell esta- blished it. 431. That is held at eight o'clock in the morning? — It used to be held at eight o'clock in the morning the first Sunday in the month, when the Holy Com- munion at the 10 o'clock service, instead of 8 a.m., gave an opportunity of using the Abbey at the latter hour for the school service. 432. And it is on these occasions that addresses are made to the boys themselves ? — Yes, especially to the school ; no other persons, except some parents now and then, being present. 433. And that is quite as frequently, you think, as it ought to be ? — I think that more frequent re petitions of these special school services would tend rather to criticism. The boys would compare the last week's sermon with the one that they had just heard. When special addresses are made to them at longer intervals they feel what you say, and I think a deeper impression is produced. I think that the present number of sermons is about 15 a year, the saints' days being included. Generally speaking there were, till recently, about ten or eleven opportunities of ad- dressing them thus specially, each year. 434. How many saints' days do you keep in the year ? — The saints' dajs which fall in term time. I do not know the number exacll}', but 11 or 12. Sometimes there may be less on account of a saint's day occurring on a Sunday, but on a rough average it would be 1 1 or ] 2. 435. In each term ? — In each year. Occasionally there would be 15 or 16 opportunities for addressing the scholars specially, about five times a term, taking the three terms. 436. Do you think that the boys who are dis- tinguished for intellectual progress are at all dis- tinguished for their proficiency in athletic exercises ? — It Ijas been so in our past history, that first-class men have been generally the best cricketers and the best rowers, and it has often been observed that those men who have been hard readers are not wanting iu manly spirit and exercises. Sometimes of course there are exceptions. 437. Does the study of mathematics and modern languages form part of the regular curriculum at Westminster ? — Mathematics and French, but not German. There is no demand for German, but French has been for some years a part of the ordinary school work. 438. Obligatory? — There may be special cases where a boy may be destined for engineering pursuits and who may be about to leave iu a short time ; in such cases permission is given that he should not study French and Greek, that all his time may be devoted to the study of mathematics. 439. Is that system of allowing boys to get on in PUBLIC SCHOOLS COMMISSION: — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 409 the subjects to wbieb thc}' say tiicv wisli to devote tliemselve:!: a good oue ? — Yes, I should say so ; I do not know how you wouhl meet tlie case unless you gave such leave to a boy who is destined to be a civil engineer, who perhaps enters the school at the age of 14, and is intended to be kept at Westminster two years only, to pursue the particular studies which have a bearing upou his future profession. If you com- pelled liim to go on with languages alone it would interfere with his profession. 440. Do you think that the proportionate progress which is made in Greek and Latin is greater than it is in the French language ? — There has always been some dislike to French. 441. (Mr. Thompson.) Is it the pronunciation which they dislike ? — It used to be looked upon as a thiug that is forced upon them, and it is not popular like Greek and Latin, or mathematics. 442. {Lord Clarendon.) Do the masters ever at- tempt to point out to the scholars thc importance of attaining proficiency in the French language in these modern times of speedy intercommunication ? — Yes, I myself have frequently mentioned its value, but it is an undoubted fact that the boys have generally been backward in French. 443. That feeling you spoke of then is not shared by the masters ? — No, it is made part of the work of every form down to the lowest. The French master has the highest form, and every master has done his best in the matter. 444. Do 30U think there has been a mere formal acquiescence, and not a hearty acquiescence on the part of the masters? — I think there has been no back- wardness at all on the part of the masters. 445. Are marks allowed for proficiency in French at the public examinations ? — Yes, marks axe given ; but they are put on one side and considered b)' them- selves, they are not takijn into account with the classi- cal marks, they are kept distinct. 446. And is that the case with the marks for mathematics also? — The m.ithematical marks also stand by themselves as a distinct class, and the boy who passes the best examination and gets the head place, is rewarded with the Masters' prize. 447. Is that a prize which has been established by all thc Masters together ? — Yes. 448. Have they done anything similar fur the French examiuation ? — No ; except that the Head Master possesses certain funds which are expended in books, and which he gives in prizes for the advance- ment of the pupils in French ; but there is a special prize for their advancement in mathematics. 449. Is the master a Frenchman ? — Yes, and a very good teacher. 450. What is his status in the school ? — He is very much respected. He comes for two hours or more and goes away again. He is not looked upon as a regular master, but he is very much liked, and has not much ditRculty in managing the boys. Occasionally he has to report to Mr. Scott ; but not often. 451. He is able to keep order in his department ? — Yes. It is very rarely that he has to report mis- conduct to Mr. Scott. I have very often been glad to see the boys speaking to M. Dupont in a respectful and friendly manner, when off duty, in Dean's Yard and elsewhere. 452. What time does he give to a boy in a week ? — He has them in classes. I cannot say the number of hours he gives to those who make the greatest proficiency. 453. There is only one more question that I wish to ask you. From your own experience and obser- vation, what do you s.ay is the result in after-life to men who have been educated at Westminster. You nmst have followed the course of a great many of them through their after career ? — Of late years ? 454. Yes ; with respect to whatever has come within your own knowledge ? — Going back to the past history of the school, I remember hearing often a commendation whicli the Duke of Wellington gave to the Westminster officers of his staff. It has become 1. Rev. T. W. Weare. a matter of history among us, but perhaps may not WEST- have gone beyond the school. He said that thc West- MINSTER; minster oflicers of his staff were the best otiicers he had. 455. {Lord Lt/ttclton.) Was the observation ever recorded ? — I cannot say it is in writing, but it is a 21 June 1862 tradition among us. Colonel Cadogan, Colonel Cotton, — now Lord Combermere, thc late Dnke of Richmond, and Lord Fitzroy Somerset, were the Westminster officers in question. 456. Was that the Cadogan who was killed at Vittoria ? — I do not know. Of late ye.irs I think I may say that the Westminster lads generallj- succeed very well in what they undertake. They ma}' not be very brilliant men, but they become good and honour- able men, whose characters would command respect, whether in the army or the navy or any other walk in life. Lord Clarence Paget represents us at the Admiralty Board. I should be very happy to hand in a list, if 3-our Lordship jdeascs. {Lord Devon.) I think it would be very desirable. 457. {Lord Clarendon.) Yet it is the case gene- rally that the aristocr.acy prefer to send their sons somewhere else ? — In too many cases it has been so. 458. {Lord Devon.) With reference to the state of the school and the numbers of the boys, does any- thing occur to 3'ou, independently of the question of removal, that would be likely to tend to increase the numbers. Supposing the school to remain in its present position, would the institution of more prizes, for instance, for another branch of instruction, be moi'e conducive to that end ? — I think the school has a great number of prizes. One can hardly say that more prizes are needed. There are book prizes and money prizes and exhibitions to the University, and I think there is no want of .stimulus in the school with respect to the prizes. 459. Nothing at present suggests itself to you as likely to lead to an increase of numbers ?^ — Nothing j except the material improvement of Dean's Yard, &c., and the use of the college garden on Sundaj-s, as a private walk for the boys. 460. Do you know how many day boys there are now, and how many there were when you lelt ? — I cannot say by memory. 461. What proportion did they bear to the board- ers ? — I have here a list made out, which contains the numbers of the home boarders or day boys as compared with the bo.arders from the year 1821. 462. Has that number been increasing, or not ? — The proportion of home boarders has, I think, rather increased, as regards the sum total of the school. 463. Have you ever heard it stated by the parents of boarders that the increase of the number of day boys is a strong objection; I speak, myself, as having, for more than half of \\\y time at school, been a day boy ? — There was a time when the day boys were rather jjut upon, and looked down upon at Westminster ; but that has long passed away, and every day boy takes his position now with the rest, without any distinction. We have had most distin- guished names as d.iy boj-s. Mr. Justice Vaughan Williams' sous passed through Westminster as such, and some of the most popular boys at present are day boys, I believe. 464. You do not think the circumstance of their being day boys operates against them ? — Not in the slightest degree. 465. That brings me to another question. Is it within your experience, as a matter of fact, that any system of bullying has prevailed in the school? — To say that bullying has never prevailed would not be correct, but from what I know of the state of the school for years past, it is of very rare occurrence, and not in any degree such as it used to be when I was a boj-. The school has greatly improved in that respect. Bullying was part of the roughness of the past age, and I have seen in former days seniors bull3'ing- juniors in a manner that would not be tolerated at the present time by public opinion amongst the boys themselves. 466. Independent of the decline of bullying, does 3 F 4Hj PUBLIC SCIIOULS COMMISSION : — MINUTES OF KViUENCE. WEST- MINSTEH. JRev. W. Weare. 21 June 1862. the authority of the chler boys in high forms over the junior boys remain pretty much as it was ? — It is entirely the same. The senior lias his junior to make his coflee and tea, but under limitations. I think that the connexion, as it exists now, is an important one, and conducive to good. 467. I take it tliat I am quite correct in saying that the .system of fagging is remitted to a con- siderable extent ? — Yes ; in fact it hardly applies to Westminster school at all, except that, as somebody must make the tea and coffee, the junior has to do so. 468. In my time the juniors used to black the seniors' shoes, and keep the candlesticks clean, in- dependent of doing various other menial services. Does anything of that kind exist now r — Not in the slightest degree. That was done away with in 1845, when the allerations in the college took place, and there is not the .•^lightest trace of it remaining. 469. Do you think the alteration in respect of fagging is not only beneficial, but has been carried as far as is desirable ? — I should bo sorry to tlo away with the modified form of fagging which still exists. 470. With regard to the compulsory share in cricket and football, is there any hardship resulting from that system ? — Do you mean fagging out ? 471. Yes? — Oh, no. I think it leads rather to the protection of the little boys than otherwise. Often enough the tyrants over the little hoys are not the seniors, but the boys who are a little bigger than the youngest, and from such petty tyranny the senior often steps in and relieves the little boy. 472. {Mr. Vaugfian.) You mentioned just now that the junior has to make tea for the seniors ? — Yes. The supply is most ample for all, but he is the person who makes the tea. 473. He does not come afterwards and take the remainder of the tea, but sits down and takes his share ? — No ; he takes it in the junior room. He carries it away, and has what remains of it. 474. What time of the day is that ? — The tea is in the evening, after the hall supper. 475. Is the tea of the smaller boys got in that way entirely ? — Yes. 476. When it is first poured out the seniors have it, and the little boys take such strength as they can get from the second infusion?— Yes. It may not be so strong; it is the second watering certainly. It should, however, be mentioned that the seniors pay exclusively for the tea, that is, the seniors and the third election, the two upper divisions of the college. 477. Then that is not part of the recognized food of the lower boys ? — The evening tea is not supplied by the Dean and Chapter. At 9 o'clock they break- fast in hall at the expense of the Chapter, when they are supplied with tea, cocoa, and coffee, according to their choice, notice of which they have given at the end of the preceding week. With that they have Lread and butter, nothing more. 478. Who serves the tea ?— In hall, all the tea, cofl'ce, and cocoa is prepared by the college butler in large cans. It is all ready made by 9 o'clock. 479. {Lord LytteUon.) That is for all equally ?_ Yes, equally without distinction, in the way of which notice has been previously given. For instance, the boys are asked at the end of the week what they will take next week, and they are supplied accord- ingly. There may be 20 coffees 10 teas, so many cocoas, and so on. 480. Each boy chooses for himself ?— Yes. The dinners consist ordinarily of beef and mutton, the joints being carved by the butler. The meat is sup- plied in ample quantities to the college boys, and I have no reason to believe that it is not very fair in point of quality. It is as good as I have for my own table. One knows by experience that one does not always get meat so good at one time as another. 481. Have the boys anything else ?— They have puddings and tarts three times in the week. 482. And beer ?— Yes, at a shilling a gallon. Then !it seven o'clock they have their supper, in hall which consists of cold meat, bread and cheese, and beer. There is no tea then. The tea I mentioned is made in college Later in the evening. It is of a private character entirely. The senior boys pay for it and the juniors make it and get the remains. 483. {Mr. Vattghan.) Have they any bread and butter then ? — No. 484. Has it been for many years the practice to have a second meat meal at supper time ? — They have always had it in the college since I was a boy. When I was a boy we had two meat meals a day, the only difference being that we dined at five and had luncheon at one. 485. Do you know whether that point was de- termined upon after due deliberation and on the ground that the boys required a second meat meal ? — I believe so, .and that it would be detrimental to their health if they did not have it. 486. You think it is necessary ? — Yes, I think that growing boys require it. 487. Whether they are in the country or in Loudon ? — Yes, my opinion is that growing boys can eat quite as much as grown up persons. 488. Is that your opinion alone or do you happen to know whether it is shared in by medical men who have attended the school from time to time ? — That I do not know. The following was put in and read : My Lords and Gentlemen, .Tune 23, 1862. At the request of the Earl of Clarendon I have the honour to lay before the Public School Commissioners a list, though incomplete, of those educated at \\'estminster within the last 20 years (commencing August 1841), who have distinguished themselves more or less in then- several positions as officers, civil or military, in Her Majesty's and the Indian service. It should be remarked that the above date (August 1841) is that of the school's lowest depression, the total number then being — Queen's scholars and town boys — only 67, though a gradual increase took place from that time. I have very great satisfaction in presenting this list, for it will, I think, testify to the general results of the system prevailing at Westminster, as a jireparation for the active business of life, and as laying the foundation of habits of self-rehance, conjoined, however, with strict attention to duty and deference to authority. I have, &c. Thos. Wm. We.^ke, Late Second Master of Westminster and formerly Student of Ch. Ch., O.xford, Date of TO leaving List, &c. the School. 1842. Lt.-Colonel H. E. Weare. 1844. F. H. CoopEK 1847. Capt. Hawes 1850. Wm. Waterfield 1851. Edwd. Water- field. 1856. J. F. Dickson „ J. K. Hewitt „ H. L. Harrison 1859. L. A. Goodeve 1854. M. Spence - „ G. Lavie The Honourable E. Bourke. Head Quarters .Staff, Crimea. Re-appointed after absence from wound. Commissioner, Umritsir, Pun- jab, Bengal Mutiny. East India Overland Telegraph. Now Fu-st Assistant Account- ant General, Government of India. (Mr. Waterfield was so distin- guished at the College, Cal- cutta, that the Governor General, Lord Dalhousie, personally presented his me- dals by request of the Col- lege.) Bengal Civil Service. Ceylon Civil Service. Bengal Civil Service. Bengal Civil Service. After open competitive examina- tion. Board of Trade ; since pro- moted to higher grade. Gained the fu-st place in com- petitive examination of 140 candidates for the roll of attorneys. Subsequently ap- pointed to a post in the Court of Chancery. Sometime .Adjutant, Iniskillen Dragoons. PUBLIC SCHOOLS COMMISSION : — MINUTES OF BVIDKNCE. 411 Date of , leaving '^•''T the School. 1854. Chas. Flcdyer i> G. de L. Lacy J. A. MORRAH C. F. Gregorik it L. Vaighax AVlLLIAMS. F. Markham Charles Slade &c. — cont. - Adjutant, Grenadier Guards : (now on the StefF). - Lieutenant and Instructor of Musketry, l-tli Reoiment. - Adjutant, (iOth Rifles. - Adjutant, 23rd Fusileers. Adjutant, Rifle Brigade. - Lieutenant and Instnictor of Musketry, Rifle Brigade. - Lieut, anf! late Instructor of Musketry, Rifle Brigade. Date of leaving the .School. 185-1. A. List, &c. — cont. F. Slade Captain lOOth Regiment, 9th in Coniijetitive examination for Staff College of 45 Candi- dates. Her Majesty's 4th Bengal Ca- valry ; Adjutant. - Captain fi7th Regiment ; Vic- toria Cross. \.B. — The classical and mathematical distinctions gained hy Westminster men of late years are not included in the aboye list, having been, I believe, supplied bv the Head Master. T. W. W. Lt. LocK\yooD E. H. Lenon - WEST- MINSTER. Jtev. 7'. W. Weave. 21 June 1862. Victoria Street, Monday, 23rd June 1862. present: Earl of Clarekdon. Earl of Devox. Lord Lyttelton. H. Hai.ford Vauguan, Esq. Rev. W. H. Thompson. The earl OF CLARENDON in the Chair. The Rev. C. B. Scott, B.D., examined. 489. {Lord Clarendon.') Yon are the Head Master of Westminster school ? — I am. 490. How many years have you been the Head Master ? — Seven years within two months. 49L The statutes only contemplated two masters ? — Only two. 492. Who are both to receive stipends from the statutable allowance ? — I have stated it precisely in my answers For the Head Master there is a stipend of 12/. a year, and for the under master 11. 6s. Sd. 493. Do they receive those stipends? — They re- ceive slightly increased stipends. The Head Master, instead of 12/., receives 20/.; and the under master, instead of "/. 6s. Sd., receives 15/. Tlien the masters had in addition commons in hall, and I now receive 19/. 6s. 8d. in lieu of that ; but the under master does not receive anything. 494. Why was that distinction made between the Head and Under Masters ? — There is reason to believe that it may have arisen thus, that the Head Master was a married man, and was allowed to take his meals out of the hall ; therefore he had an allowance given him ; but the under master still went on dining in the hall with the scholars. Subsequently that was discontinued, and no compensation given, so far as we can arrive at any conclusion upon the point. There is evidence upon the chapter records that at certain times allowances were given to certain per- sons who were married men dining out of hall. I imagine that subsequently, in the changes that took place, both masters ceased to dine in the hall, but no further augmentation was made to the allowauces of either the Head or Under Master. 495. On that account does no master dine in the liall with the scholars now ? — That is so. 496. With the exception of the 6s. 2d. rent you pay for your house, it is rent-free, the repairs being done by the chapter ? — Yes, the substantial repairs. 497. {Mr. Thompson.) Are the internal repairs also done? — Not any internal fittings or tenant's fixtures. They simply keep the fabric in repair, so as to make it wind and water tight. 498. {^Lord Clarendon.) Will you turn to page 4, and have the goodness to look at answer No. 10, with respect to the tuition fees. When was the Head Master's share of the tuition fees first derived from the entrances of the boys ? — Do you mean from what time that arrangement was made from which I take the average data ? 499. Yes, I do ? — From my predecessor's time ; and as I wish to tell the Commissioners everything, I have brought a short paper here, showing the state of the school finance in 1861. 500. The Head and under Masters have by old custom received fees from certain boys on the sixth form on leaving the school ; does that practice obtain now ?-— Yes, in a modified form. In old times the Head and under Masters received leaving fees at the rate of ten guineas for the Head Master, and six guineas for the under m.aster, from all the Queen's scholars who left in the sixth form. The Head Master also received fees from all the town boys who left in the sixth form. 501. You say that was the old custom? — Yes, I think it is very old ; I do not know how old. Some alterations had taken place : I found on my coming that it was a customary thing. Of late years, and since I have be#ii Head Master, no leaving fees have been received from any Queen's scholars except when they have obtained their elections to Christ Church or Trinity ; or else have left at a period when they must have obtained their election, in order to take some other more desirable appointment. Fees have only been receiyed, therefore, from those Queen's scholars who obtained something valuable for them- selves on leaving. 502. And with respect to the town boys ? — With respect to the town boys in the sixth form, who leave after an average stay in it of about two years, they have paid leaving fees uniformly. 503. I suppose there is no means of enforcing the payment, if tlieir parents objected to it ? — No, none. 504. {Lord Lijttelton.) How much do those leaving fees amount to ? — I have mentioned the amount, ten guineas. 505. Is that the average ? — No, ten guineas each. 506. {Lord Clarendon.) That is about 80/. a year ? — That is the average. 1 have calculated the averages accurately, leaving out the odd shillings. 507. May I ask you what are stipend fees ? — What I mean by stipend fees are the stipend and allowances, whicli amount to 39/. I omitted 6s. Sd., because I pay 6s. 2d. for the house. 508. Then there are stipend fees, leaving fees, and tuition fees. Was it in relation to the average of the emoluments of the different masters that you made a representation to the Dean and Chapter on the subject of fees ? — It was not in relation to the emoluments, but it was in relation to the Queen's scholars' fees being only 17 guineas, whereas you will see here that the other boys were paying 25 guineas. I represented to the Dean and Chapter that in point of fact I could not teach the Queen's scholars, if I did not tax the parents of others to pay the masters for them. I mean that what we received was not an adequate amount to pay for the tuition of the Queen's scholars. I put it in 3 F 2 Kev. C. B. Scott. 23 June 1862. 412 ■\VEST- illNSTEli, Kev. C. B. Scott. 23 June 18C:i PUBLIC SCHOOLS COMMISSION :— MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. is the The actual sums received were : — Ihis form, which is very simpk- : 1 1 guinea amount payable fur tuition ; of that I pay tour gui- neas to the under master for each boy. 500 Were those 17 guineas paid to you .' — les. I p;dd four iruiiicas to the under master, iour to the mathematical master for mathematical tuition ; that was eight. I paid also two guineas lor French and school expenses. „^ 510 (Lord Chifemhn.) That makes 10.''— ics, the result was. there remained only seven guineas a year to pay for the other scholastic instruction o those boys, and the only means by which the school was enabled to be carried on was that the aggregate amount was .iivided and distributed, in order to keep the masters -omehow, and enable us to pay them a very inadequate stipend. The force of the argument was that wo were obliged to tax the town l^"ys i" order to te=.ch the Queen's scholars. The Chapter a'rrecd to gi,-e us, not all that we asked tor, which w°as eight guineas, in order to make up the amount to 25 guineas'!^ but they granted seven. 511. [Mr. Vaiifihan.) How long ago is it since that has been granted ?— It will be received now, but it has never been received as yet. 512. HoAv long is it since they acceded to it? — They acceded to it in July last. 513. {Lord Clarendon.) Do you mean to say that they acceded to it in July last, and have paid nothing yet ?— Nothing yet. In their letter to the Eccle- siastical Commissioners they say they were willing to deal witli the question earlier and tliat it was only the Dean's absence wliich prevented tliem ; still they availed themselves of the delay to postpone the payment. oM. Your application was made two years ago? ^Yes, originally. 515. {Lord Lijttelton.) Is there any entry with respect to the payment to be made ?— There will be when it comes. 516. The amount is seven guineas a head for the whole colleue ?— Yes. It will amount altogether to nearly 300/: 517. {Lord Clarendon.) In addition to the 17 gui- neas?— In addition to the 17 guineas. " That will make the amount 24 guineas a head. 518. {Lord Lyttdton.) Will it be paid to you ?— It will. All the fees come into the Head Master's hands, and he distributes them. All the details are in the paper to whicli I have referred. Lord Clarendon directed the witness to hand in the paper, which was as follows : — School Finance, 1861. The amount receivable annually in school fees, at present rates, supposing 120 boys and 25 entrances in the year, would be, without the new Chapter grant — 76 town boys - £1,995 40 Queen's scholars - - 714 4 Bishop's boys - - 71 8 25 entrances - - 263 10 £3,042 18 Adding the new grant 294Z., we have 3,336/. 18s. According to the scheme which Dr. Liddell handed ovor to me at my coming ihe dividends would be — Fees. £ s. Under master - 504 - First assistant - 249 16 - Second „ - 168 - Third „ Mathematics (two masters) French - - - Church usher - School expenses (about) Head Master, residue Entrances. & 65 41 41 12 15 15 6 £ 569 291 209 200 504 100 50 35 12 11 15 1,959 18 1,082 19 £ .f. d. - 3,052 18 9 - 3,303 10 10 - 3,276 10 6 - 3,002 18 3 - 2,976 1 - 3,097 17 1856 1857 1858 1859 ] 860 - 1861 In my time the Head Master's share has been less than is shown above by about 75/. yearly, which has "■one to augment the payments to other masters. In this scheme the Queen's scliolars' fees being divided only between the head, under, and mathe- matical masters, the two senior assistants being paid by capitation fees on the town boys alone, the latter salaries would vary more with the numbers of the school than the former, rising in a larger propor- tion when they rose, and falling more when they fell. This inecjuality ought not to exist ; moreover, with such a system there is no provision for any additional expenses that may be required. If an ad- ditional master were needed, there is no place provided for him, all the inconw being appropriated. A good system of division ought to present these features amongst others : — 1. General expenses should fall on the general fund. 2. All regular masters should share in proportion to the numbers, so that all alike should be interested in their increase. 3. There should be the means of adding or drop- ping any payment, as for an additional master, with- out embarrassment. The best and simplest way of attaining these ends would be, in my opinion, to adopt a fixed minimum for the annual income of each master ; and to divide thus : — a. To pay general expenses, including extra masters, church ushershit), rent, &c., of i)roposed house for home-boarders, and assistant masters, and incidental charges (Vincent Squ.are, printing examination papers, bath tickets, &c.) ,3. Next, to subtract the fixed salaries from the total residue, y. Lastly, to divide the surplus, if any, in the ratio of a per-centage on the fixed salaries, and to set aside some portion to form a reserve school fund. The church ushership involves so much less ad- ditional I)urden to boarding-house masters, who have already the tie of their houses to keep them on the spot, and fixed stalls in tlie Abbey, that I propose to assign the duty to them jointly ; that is, there being two at jM-esent, that each should hold it for half the year, the choice of times resting with the senior assistant ; the salary to be in future 40/. a year. Either to be at liberty, if he please, to hand over the duty and salary of any half year to another master who may be willing to take it, subject only to the Head Master's approval. Any new assistant master to have no more than his minimum salary for the first year. The assignment of forms and duties in general to the assistant masters in the upper school to remain always in the Head Master's hands. Taking the total, as estimated above, at 3,336/. annually, the following scale of dividends appears to me fair and reasonable : — Head Master Under master First assistant Second „ Third „ Mathematical Second ditto 1,000/. - Church usher - 40/. 550/. - French (say) - 110/. 275/. - House and other " 250/. 225/. 250/. 225/. 2,775/. items (say) ''■J2 230/. 380/. £3,042 18 There would thus be a surplus, in the case sup- posed, sufficient to give a percentage upon the masters' incomes with a residue to lay aside. PUBLIC SCHOOLS COMMISSION : — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 413 If a new assistant were needed, as the increased nunibors would give a considerably larger surplus, lie could bo at ouro provided tor without any tax upon the incomes of existing masters. October 1861. Charles B. Scott. 519. {Lord Li/tfclfnii.) The allowance of bread is not commuted, but still given in kind ? — Yes ; they wive me two loaves, and the under master one. 520. These stipends include everything — the tuition fees, the leaving fees, and stipend fees ? — Yes. 521. This 1,054/., 80/., and 39/., is the money which is paid from all quarters ? — Yes. 522. (Mr. Thotnpson.) I think you said that the stipends of the assistant masters, in your opinion, were very inadecjuate ? — Yes ; but I had no means of making them larger. All I meant by that was that I found in endeavouring to obtain masters, that I could not offer anything like the same terms as other public schools were enabled to otfer. 523. That is what I wanted to ask you ; whether you think that at the present rates you are able 1o get men of suificient ability to till the offices ? — I must say that, without wishing to criticise others, I think if my present chief assistant master, who is one of the most valuable persons in the school, were to leave, I should find the greatest possible ditiiculty in supplying his place. 524. (Mr. V(tti(jh(in.) Who is your assistant master ? — Mr. Marshall. 525. {Mr. Thompson.) Will you mention what Mr. Marshall's antecedents were ? — He was educated at the Charterhouse. He took a second-class at Oxford, and the Dean, Dr. Liddell, induced him to conic to AVestminster. 52G. In the place of Mr. Rigaud ? — No ; he came at the same time. He subsequently occupied the place of Mr. Rigaud. 527. Do you think that in consequence of the small salaries paid to the under masters more than your share of the duties of the school falls upon you as Head Master ? — I certainly have not a sine- cure. 528. Do you think it very desirable that the sti- pends of the masters should, if possible, be inci-eased from some source or other ? — Yes, it would be most important. If the members of the school could be increased the question would solve itself, because we should have a larger number of tuition fees. 529. {Mr. Vaughan.) Has the under master ever claimed his commons in the hall? — Ko ; he has always been a married man in my time ; besides which, the Chapter has always held, "that the existing state of things in such matters had remained stagnant so long that it could not be altered. 530. Do you think that commons could not be claimed now ? — I think not. 531. Can you say how long the custom of receiv- ing these leaving fees has existed ? — I believe from a very early time. 532. Do you know the exact date, or is it too long for you to have any knowledge personally of it ? — Yes. It is as long as any existing old Westminster could remember. 533. Do you, or do you not, think there is any anomaly in the mathematical assistant receiving 250/. and the arithmetical assistant receiving 277/. ; are you satisfied with that ? — Certainly not. It is a great inequality, but it is altered in the scheme I have sub- • niitted to you. 534. In considering the question of providing for efficient masters, has it ever occurred to you at what rate you could get masters, such as in all respects would satisfy you? — I feel a little difficulty in answering that question precisely, because there are so many points to be taken into account. Living in London, on the one hand, is a drawback, and on the other it is a cer- tain attraction to some men. There is great difficulty in getting comfortable lodgings, but that we hope to improve by the house now being built, and that is one of the chief things that induced me to undertake, on the part of the school, the speculation, as I may call it. It is very difficult to provide comfortably for the masters. I have found that other schools were offer- ing 500/. or 600/. a year, or even more, when we could only offer about 200/. 535. Have you had to encounter any real practi- cal difficulty in getting masters ? — Two years ago I had the greatest difficulty in getting anybody. Now we have got Mr. Lee Warner, who, I hope, will be a valuable accession to the staff ; but it was a long time before I could find an efficient man, and, indeed, I cannot expect to keep any one long on such terms. . 536. {Lord Clarendon.) Do 3-ou think this scheme, which has already received the sanction of the masters, so far as it has been represented to them, would meet the difficulties of the cise ? — I think it is the best scheme that we can establish. I should say, with regard to the sanction of the masters, that the arrange- ment of such things has always rested in the Head Master's hands. 537. I meant the approval of the arrangement which you signified it had received .'' — I believe it was considered a very fair arrangement. 538. Do you think it would meet the difficulties of the ease if the school were to rise in numbers ? — I think if we doubled our numbers it would meet the difficulties ef the case, but I do not see any prospect of that at present. 539. {Lord Clarendon.) Before we leave this part of the subject, I will ask you, Mr. Scott, with refer- ence to the great increase that has taken place in the value of the property of the Dean and Chapter. Do you think that the stipend that is allowed to the Head ]\Ia.-ter has increased in proportion to the in- crease in the value of the property. There has been an increase made in it, I believe, as compared with what it was originally ? — The stipend of the master was increased slightly, that is to say, from 12/. to 20/., before Busby's time. We have it in evidence that it was increased within the first 100 years after the foundation. 540. The value of the Dean and Chapter's property has increased very nmch since that time, has it not ? —Yes. 541. Has the master's stipend increased in pro- portion to the rise in the value of money ? — It has not increased at all since that time. 542. Is it your opinion, in reference to the in- creased value of the property of the Dean and Cliap- ter, that as mticli has been done by them for the school as under the statutes they were bound to do ? — It is difficult to argue that, under the statutes, they were bound to do more than to provide for the education of the Queen's scholars and for their main- tenance. They had not, hoAvever, provided for the education of these Queen's scholars in any way. 543. {Mr. Thompson.) They had not ? — No. Now this seven guineas is part of that ; but cer- tainly the tuition fees for the Queen's scholars are fairly chargeabh; on the Chapter funds. On the other hand, the Ciiapter have understood their obli- gation witii reference to the school in a more liberal sense ; and they have given us proper fittings, — additional class-rooms for instance, and the gym- nasium, which I do not think were distinctly contem- plated in the statutes. 544. {Lord Lyftelton.) And they have improved the dormitory ? — Yes ; they have done certain things for our convenience in the school. 545. They have put up those partitions which we saw ? — Yes. 546. {Mr. Thompson.) Did you put in the furni- ture of the dormitories of the Queen's scholars your- self? The chests of drawers and the fixed book-cases below stairs, I put in. 547. (J//-. Vaur/han.) In reference to the remark which is made in your answers to the written ques- tions with respect to the under masters, are we to 3F3 WEST- MNSTER. Mcv. C. B. Scolt. 23 June 1862. 414 PUBLIC SCHOOLS COMMISSION :— MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. WEST- MINSTEK. Bev. C. B. Scott. understand tliat the Head Master has to provide and pay for the assistant masters ? — Yes. 548. Tliat tlierefore any setllement of stipend at present den^nds on v/liat he offers and they accept ? —Yes. iS .June 1862. 549. (Lord Lyitcllon.) All fees whatever come to ■ the Head Master in the lirst instance ? — Yes. 550. When you say you are not able to offer any- thing adequate to the assistants, in comparison with other public schools, do you refer to a few of the most flourishing schools ; because you must be aware that some of the public schools cannot pay so much as is paid here ; Shrewsbury, for instance ? — I do not know what Shrewsbury has to offer ; but I should suppose that Dr. Kennedy can offer larger stipends, considering the difference in the cost of living. 551. {Lord Clarendon.) "In addition to the two " masters on the statutable foundation, there are now " three classical assistants, two mathematical, and one " for French. Another assistant may probably be " added after Christmas." Does that mean another mathematical m.aster ? — No, a classical assistant. I did not add him after Christmas. I could not get him. I have added him now. 552. You have, now ? — Mr. Lee Warner is the gentleman. 553. (J/r. Thompson.) That is a young gentle- man who has recently taken his degree ? — He has had it a little wliile, I think. 554. From Oxlbrd ?— Yes. 555. Is he a first-class ? — No. 556. {Lord Clarendon.) " The arithmetic and " French masters have only given certain hours of " their time in the week." They are not regularly on the staff, I suppose ? — Not in all i-espects. But if our arithmetical master were to resign, and he is now advanced in years, I should put one on the staff immediately. 557. How many hours a week does he attend ? — Twelve. 558. Does he attend to the lower school only, or to the whole ? — -To half the whole school. 559. That is the lower ? — No ; half the whole. 560. Then do half the school go without arith- metic ? — No ; they are under the mathematical master. 561. {Lord I^i/ttelton.) The lower part is under the arithmetical master, and the higher under the mathematical master ? — Yes. 562. " The French e.xtra master was added in " 1826 ;" are there two French masters now ? — No ; that was in answer to the question, " When was "French first introduced?" Before 1826 French was never heard of in the school ; and the French master, when introduced, was called an extra master, the teaching of French being given to the boys as an extra thing. 563. {Lord Clarendon. ) I see further down you say that the French mathematical masters were placed on the staff by your predecessor in 1846 ? — Yes ; the French master is not now an extra master ; he is placed now on tiie staff. 564. {Lord Lyttelton.) That is to say, that the French master that was added to the school in 1826 w-as placed on the staff' in 1846 ? — Yes. 565. {Lord Clarendon.) There was no mathe- inatical master on the staff till 1846?— No; but I should say that there were some mathematics taught by the masters to the boys who were going up to college. That instruction was given by the classical master ; but no mathematics were taught as a special branch. 566. What is the status of the French and mathe- ni.itical master in the school ; are they on the same footing as the assistant masters ? — The mathematical master is, but hitherto the French master has not been ; he has authority in reference to some matters strictly within his own duties, but he is not practically in the same position as the other masters, and takes no part in the management and discipline of the school. 567. Is the mathematical mastei- resident ? — He is living in lodgings close by. 568. {Lord I^yttellon.) He does no otiier work, I suppose ? — Yes ; he does a little other work, I believe. 569. {Lord Clarendon.) The rule of late years has been to limit the number of boys under one master to 30 in the school generally, the highest and lowest divisions not exceeding 20 ; and this you say you find in practice to be fully as much work as can be honestly attended to ? — Yes ; I think 30 is rather too man}' to be under one master's charge, and now we have a new master I have altered it, and there is no division at this moment so large as 30; 25 is my idea of what it ought to be. 570. You think from your own experience as a master that 25 boys are as many as can be effectually taught by cue person ? — Yes, I do ; ordinarily. 571. Do you think that if the number of masters is increased, the efficiency of the instruction would be increased likewise ? — Certainly ; I am speaking of a system which is intended to stand by itself, without any, or at all events, very little private tuition. 572. Wilhout private tuition ? — Yes. 573. If a master had under his charge 25 or 30 boys, and had private tuition to do besides for at least an equal number of boys, it would be more work than one man could do efficiently ? — I think so ; unless the school work was diminished on account of the private tuition. 574. {Mr. Thompson.) Do you think that any improvement in the mathematics of the school has taken place since the mathematical master has been appointed, that is to say, do you think that the scholars who have gone to Cambridge have distin- guished tliemselves more than they did before ? — A mathematical master has existed since Dr. Liddell's time in 1846. It has introduced an improvement certainly ; CTilbert, for instance, was under the new system ; he gained a wranglership and fellowship of Trinity ; and there is now a boy in the school, who, I hope, some day will go to Trinity, and of him I have a high opinion. 575. You think he will be distinguished in mathe- matics ? — Yes ; I have several others also who, I think, will do respectably. 576. For some time before Dr. Liddell's time very few mathematical scholars from Westminster distin- guished themselves ? — Very few. 577. {Lord Clarendon.) Yon sa.y i\\e under master has immediate charge of the college, does that mean of the Queen's scholars ? — Yes. 578. And the Head Master, what charge does he take of the school ? — He has the general superinten- dance and control of everything, and his authority is supreme in the college also, but practically he would never interfere without a cause ; when the under master is away the Head Master takes his work, because no one else is competent to exercise authority in college according to our old usages. If Mr. Ingram is away, for instance, I go in for prayers with the Queen's scholars ; I also visit them when they are sick, and so forth ; but the administration of the discipline rests in his hands, and the details of every day's work. 579. You consider that the Head Master is supreme over the whole school ? — Certainly. 580. You state that the under master has the power of dismissing his own assistants ? — That answer ought to be cancelled ; because when Mr. Weare, the late under master, saw it, he said he thought it was a mistake, and that the under master had never exer- cised that authority. But practically it had never been tested, because the under school had never been sufficiently large to require an assistant. 581. {Lord I^yttelton.) Do you mean that he would not have either the power of appointment or dismissal ? — No ; the two go together. 582. {Lord Clarendon.) You consider then that the appointment of all the assistants rests with the Head Master? — Y^es, I am told so. PUBLIC SCHOOLS COMMISSION: — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 415 583. {Lord Lyttelton.) The under master has the immediate charge of the college. Is tliat by an arrjuigcment with the Head Master or under the statutes r — They have joint rirsponsibility under the statutes, but by old arraiigenient, tor personal conve- nience, the under master has the general superinten- dance. I have not time for all the details of the -school, and the under muster is in immediate commu- nication with the college for that purpose. ,iS4. With regard to the power of the Head Master with respect to the general superintendanco of the school, as between the Head Master and the Dean and Chapter, is that an absolute right, do ) on conceive, under the statutes. There is a clause in the statutes that the Dean shall be quasi mens in cor- pora ? — I should owe allegiance and suliordination to the Dean undoubtedly. The Head Master, for instance, has no power to expel the Queen's scholars. .j8o. In regard to the whole regulation of the studies and discipline, the Head Master by imme- morial custom has the whole control of the college in that respect ? — Yes ; and the Head blaster would be very unrtt indeed for his place if he ever did anything that would require the interference of the Dean, but T conceive that the Dean has paramount authority if it were necessary to exercise it. 586. What is it actually in practice ? Suppose, for instance, you wished to introduce some important alteration into the school which did not involve any expense, should v'ou conceive j'ourself lx)uud in cour- tesy or in duty to consult the Dean ? — 1 should think I was bound in courtesy to do so. 587. But not as a matter of right? — I should avoid raising that point. 588. {Mr. Thompson.) I suppose that the Dean, if he pleased, could enforce the statutes ? — I ima- gine that the Dean has a very general authority ; I cannot conceive any good end that would be served by contesting it. 589. {Lord Lyttelton.) You think that it depends on a good understanding between the different par- ties ? — Yes, it does. 590. {Mr. Vaughan.) Do you happen to know whether there has been any correspondence between the Dean and the Head Master at any time on the subject of their jurisdiction, or the exercise of it ? — I had once a note from the present Dean since I have been Head Master myself about the Queen's scholars attending the Abbey. They were absent one 5th of November, when general leave was given, and he thought it right to send me a note claiming authority as Dean to determine wiietlicr they should go or not. I suppose it was a mode of asserting authority so that the right should not be lost. 591. Do j'ou know whether any such correspon- dence took place between the preceding Head Master and the Dean ? — No. Before I came, I asked him whether the Dean and Chapter interfered, and I received an answer that they did not interfere much. 592. {Lord Clarendon.) It is said that the statutes by which the foundation is governed are supposed never to have received the royal assent. That is the fact, is it not ? — I believe it is the fact. 593. You say that there is no doubt that the statutes represent a condition of things that actuall}' existed, or, at least, was intended to exist in the reign of the foundress ; and under these the scholars were to be supplied with their lodging, bed, and meals in hall, and also that they should receive their in- struction gratuitously. Do you consider that the statutes are fulfilled in that respect ? — No. I do not consider that the Queen's scholars receive their instruction gratuitously, because, as we know, they pay 17 guineas a year for it ; and in reference to the meals in hall, it has only been within the last few years that the supply in hall has been at all adequate. I mentioned in a letter to the Chapter that in the year 1846 the Queen's scholars were attached to some boarding-house, where they obtained the greater part of their meals, paying 24 guineas a year. In former times the boys were not half fed by the Chapter, but now tliey are entirely fed. 594. What time w'as that ? — Up to the year 1846. 595. {Mr. TItoinpson.) That was done by Dean Buekland, 1 believe ? — Yes. 596. {Lord Clarendon.) You think that the Chapter is bound to feed them ? — Yes ; and it is recorded in the Chapter ijooks that they did, and that the allowance for commons was more than adequate originally. 597. E.ach scholar h:ul a tutor, who was responsible for hira ? — "i'es. That is also a statutable matter. If yon look to the statutes, you will perceive that the tutor was not the person who taught him, but who was responsible to the college for him. 598. The tutor, then, must have been a friend of the parents ? — No ; he must be one of the Chapter, or a Master. 599. But he would be somebody who knew the boy's parents, because he was a surety for him. Was there anj^ difficulty in boys finding a tutor ? — No, I believe not ; but it is 300 years ago. 600. There is nothing of the sort now ? — No, nothing, and there has not been for 250 years. The deans and canons and masters were the tutors. 601. There is one question I see here, of which I wisii to have some explanation, and that is the Queen's scholars have 10 guineas to pay for correc- tion, a sort of private tuition ? — They had, but that has passed away. 602. {Mr. Thompson.) You say it was known that the allowance for living was sufficient. It would almost follow from that that it was sometimes more than sufficient. Is there an}' proof of there ever having been any surplus which the boy received from that portion of his commons ? — That would re- quire me to go into the Chapter accounts to determine. I believe it will be found so, because there are certain orders mentioned, which are different in different years. 603. Which proves that they were sufficient ge- nerally ? — Yes ; that they were sufficient in other years. 604. (Lord Lyttelton.) Are you aware that it is contended in any quarters that the payment of tuition fees by Queen's scholars is illegal and contrary to tho statutes. Has that subject ever come before you officially ? — Not officially. 605. {Mr". Thompson.) Do you imagine that the tutors of these boys received any fees ? — T do not know. 606. Do not yon think it probable from the analogy of Cambridge that they might ? — It is probable that they might, but I have no evidence on the subject. 607. Might not that have been the origin of the payment of fees to the masters ? — It might have been, but I do not know. 608. Is it not probable, for instance, that the dignitaries who may have made themselves respon- sible as mentioned, would receive something in re- turn ? — I think it is clear that it was a system of profit, because in the statutes there is a limitation. 609. Then it would follow from that that there would be a profit ? — Yes, probably some profit, in consequence of the trouble, for I imagine that the pensionarii lodged with them. 610. In fact they were boarding-house keepers ? — They were boarding-house keepers, no doubt. 611. But they were also responsible for the scho- lars' payments ? — Each scholar would have a tutor also. 612. Do you not suppose he would have to pay something as an ordinary charge ? — I do not know. It was the rule in the college that every Queen's scholar and every pensioner should have a tutor. The tutor was the person who kept the accounts and was responsible as a surety. 613. I gather from your answer to question 13 that you consider that the school would never be satisfactorily conducted until a certain portion of the Chapter property is set apart for its use ? — Certainly ; 3 F4 WEST- •IINSTEB. Sev. C.B. Scon. 2.3 June 18C4. 416 PUBLIC SCHOOLf? COMMISSION : — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE, AFEST- MINSTEK. Hev. C. B. Scott. 23 June 1862. it will never be satisfactory till some definite sum, some fair proportion of the whole, either in money or in separate estates, is set apart for it. 614. That can only be done with the consent of the Ecclesiastical Commissioners ? — Exactly. But I know, as a matter of fact, and the Dean has told me, that there are negotiations pending at this moment upon the matter. The Ecclesiastical Commissioners want to get the whole of the Chapter estates, and they will'sooner or later, and then the question of what the school shall have must be considered. It is a most important thing. 61.5. Is it not important that this Commission should have some idea of the suui that is required for maintaining the establishment ; is not that most desirable ?— Most desirable ; but all that could be fairly claimed on the part of the school, would be that there should be suHicient to provide for the Queen's scholars, that is to say, to provide for the maintenance and living, and also for the teaching. The payment for the masters ought, I think, to be in the shape of adequate tuition fees for the Queen's scholars, independently of any such fees from other boys. There would be a further point t« consider, namely, with reference to the payment for services of various kinds, whether any of these can be regarded as fairly chargeable to the parents. 616. You think that the masters have an equit- able claim to have their stipends reconsidered by the Ecclesiastical Commissioners, independently of the payments made to the masters for the foundation boys ? — I conceive that if my stipend were raised, I ought not to take large tuition fees for the Queen's scholars. I only have my position in order to teach them, and I have no right to a sinecure stipend. 617. You are aware, of course, that the minor canons have had their stipends considerably increased? — Yes ; I mentioned that to the Chapter. 618. Do you not conceive that the schoolmaster held originally a higher position than the minor canons ? — Clearly. There have been, however, dis- cussions in the Chapter upon the matter, so far as to precedence within the Aljbey walls. 619. {Mr. J'auff/iaji.) Do I understand you to interpret the statutes to the etfect that the tutor is the person with whom the poisionariits boarded ? — Yes. 620. Have you read the statutes carefully tlirough? — I have frequenth'. 621. It has struck me on reading them that the tutor, whoever he was (for it seems very difficult to determine who he was) could not be a boarding-house keeper for this among other reasons : it is particularly recommended that the pe/isio/iarius, who, according to this assumption, is the lodger, must ■within a certain time provide himself with a tutor. Now, if he was a pensio/tfiriits, it would follow that he must already be boarding with somebody, and therefore that the tutor must be distinct from the boarding-house keeper with whom the pc?isio/iarii/s was boarding ? — He might be distinct ; but I should think that generally he was the same. 622. Again, the boy is called in reference to the tutor pttpillus, while he is called in reference to the person with whom he boards 2}ensio?iar{iis ? — Yes, there is that ditference in the terms ; but I conceive that can be explained iu this way, that the two offices were combined iu one person. 623. (3Ir. Thompson.) The same terms are used at Cambridge, I believe? — Yes; and the tutor is responsible for the peiisionariiis as his pupil. 624. Though he does not board with him ? — Yes ; though he does not board with him. 62o. And never did ?_No, not at college ; but the conditions are entirely different. 626. {Mr. Vaughan.) In reference to what you consider the present equitable position of the Queen's scholars, do you remember wliether the instruction to which they are entitled under the statutes is specitied in the statutes ?— Yes ; and the subjects on which they are taught. There is an elaborate scheme given of the weekly work. 627. Do you remember what that was ? — Yes, Latin, Greek, and Hebrew. 628. Is not much more taught now to the Queen's scholars than Latin, Greek, and Hebrew? — Yes; but Hebrew is not now taught. 629. But much more than Latin and Greek ? — Yes. 630. I mean iu mathematics and modern lan- guages, history? — It is only French that is taught in modern languages ; we have in addition now, mathematics, history, and geografjhy. 631. Have not the tuition fees that have been paid by the collegers as well as others been paid in consequence partly of those new additions of subjects as well as for the old subjects that were formerly alone taught ? — The Chapter order in reference to the additional seven guineas expressly mentions that there were additional subjects now taught, as a ground of increasing the payment. 632. In consideration that so many new subjects are taught, do you or do you not consider that equitably some tuition fees might be exacted from the Queen's scholars in consequence of the advantage of the addi- tion which is made to their education ? — I conceive that in any case it was intended that the whole period of the week, the whole day should be occupied in teaching or learning something, and whether it is one thing or another I do not think makes a material diffi.'rence. 633. Would your view be that the whole curricu- lum of education was provided for the scholars gratui- tously, and that any extra additions which were made to the curriculum they would be entitled to be taught gratuitously as well ? — Y'es, that is my opinion. 634. {Mr. Thompson.) They got the best educa- tion which could be obtained in their day ? — Yes. ()35. A:k1 you consider that they are entitled to the best education which they can obtain now ? — Yes, mutatis mutandis. 636. {Lord Clarendon.) Dr. Liddell thought it right not to fill up certain vacancies which had oc- curred. Was that because there were not candidates sufficient ? — No ; it was iu order to equalize the number in each year's examination. There are a certain number of elections to be given in each year ; if you have a very large number of candidates in one aiul a very small number in another, the distribution of the advantages is very unequal. 637. The advantages of the foundation were not intended originally, I believe, for the possessors or heirs of considerable wealth, but to apply to persons of more limited means. Do you think that the inten- tion of the statutes is adhered to in the elections ? — The condition in life of the parents has never been taken into account from the earliest times on record ; we have had many Jilii nol/iles on the list. 638. Practically there is no annual visitation of the school ? — No. 639. It is mentioned here that the Head Master has an annual visitation of the school, but it does not appear that there is any ? — No, not in the sense that the statutes contemplate. The electors were intended to go round to each class and investigate the condi- tion of the whole school from top to bottom, but that has never been done, I suppose, from the beginning. 640. {Lord Lyttelton.) Visitation, perhaps, is too formal a word ? — It would not be too formal a word if the visitation were carried out in the sense in which the statutes intended it should be, because at the annual visitation the boys were to be examined by the electors. 641. They come there for that purpose ? — Yes. 642. {Lord Clarendon.) And for no other pur- pose ? — That was the main object. 643. And that strict superintendence or super- vision of the school which is contemplated Ijy the statutes in fact does not take place ? — No. 644. {Lord Lyttelton.) Not by the electors ? — No. PUBLIC SCHOOLS COJIMISSIOK :— MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 417 G4o. (Lord Clarendon.) Nor by anybody ? — Wc manage it ourselves. 646. {Lord Lyttelton.) It is uot a more strict examination on that occasion than on any other ? — It is our principal examination. 647. {Lord Clarendon.) What is your opinion of the system of cliallenges. Does it work well, do you think. It is very old, is it not ? — It is a very old and very interesting relic of the ancient disputa- tions. It has some advantages, for it is impossible for any copying or dishonesty to take place in it, while you test the boys' attainments, and the training which they have received from the helps. It not only pre- vents any dishonesty, but acts as a very strong sti- mulus to the bo3's, who work for it in a way in which they will hardly work for anything else. It also serves for the better candidates as an effective test of merit, although involving a great expenditure of the Head Master's time, who, as moderator, is obliged to be present at it all, and it continues a very long period of time. 648. For some weeks ? — Yes, it goes on for foiir or five weeks, one or two hours a day, and often a good deal more. The master is obliged to sit and listen when he might be teaching in a more effi- cient manner. But there are advantages about it ; it brings the Head Master into pleasant relations with the boys. The master is laid aside, as it were, and the boys argue before him like counsel before a judge. It gives opportunities of knowing them which are hard to find otherwise. I have found it myself a very valuable way of teaching fairness and honourable dealing. The challenges are different now from what they were. 649. In what points is there much difference 'i — There used to be much special pleading and many attempts at quibbling : for the last three years I have scarcely heard a single argument which was not per- fectly fair and honourable. 650. {Mr. Thompson.) Do you not allow sophisms ? -No. 651. {Lord Clarendon.) After the election have you not observed a sort of collapse on the part of the boys who had exerted themselves very much ; do they become idle ? — Sometimes there is a little col- lapse, but I do not think it does any very great harm. 652. Has it not occurred to you that the fact of that collapse is a drawback to the system of chal- lenges ? — The position of the juniors in college is one of a good deal of drudgery, which I am afraid blends itself with other causes of idleness, so that it is ditu- cult to disentangle them. A junior in college seldom does much work ; this is uot, however, due to over- work in the challenge, in most cases. 653. (Mr. Thompson.) The juniors are the newly elected scholars ? — Yes. 654. The first year? — Exactly. 655. (Lord Devon.) Will you explain how the paper of Latin prose and elementary mathematics, which you h.ave introduced into the system, is dove- tailed on to the challenge? — The way we manage it is this : I reckon the places in the challenge at so many marks, and I mark the mathematics and Latin prose under certain limitations, so that they should not be more than one-third in value of the ordinary marks of the challenge. Practically the system does introduce a little change. It changes one or two places, but it does not make any great change. Still it is very important, because instead of the boys neg- lecting their mathematics and Latin prose during the whole time of the challenge, it requires them to continue them, 656. A junior boy, for example, No. 3, wishes to take a place, would another boy, say No. 2, originate the question in Latin prose ? — No, the Latin prose and mathematics are merely papers. 657. {Lord Lt/tfelton.) What the boys do in the way of examination is entirely oral?— Entirely. 658. They do not set papers to each other ? — No, it is entirely oral. 659. Does it work equally or not. Are not some 1. WEST- MINSTEK. Hev. C. B. Scolt. hoys rather bashful and timid about it ? — Yes, and presence of mind and confidence, being both qualities which will be of advantage to a boy in after- life, I do not think it is unreasonable to allow them some weight in determining his position. 660. Is the system of challenges one which you 23 June 1862 would introduce if it were not founded upon ancient tradition ? — No, from the great expenditure of time which it involves. 661. Y'"ou have not thought at any time of the propriety of abolishing it ? — No, I think it is of great historical interest ; and that is a very strong reason in its favour. 662. {Mr. Thompson.) Speaking generally, j-ou would say it is a bad thing to interfere with tradi- tions of such importance ? — Yes. 663. It would be some time before you could re- place it with something better ? — It would be such an unpopular thing that its abolition would offend a vast number of old Westminsters. 664. Do you think any such change would be dis- liked by the boys themselves ? — Very much. 665. (Lord Li/itelton.) I believe it is quite pecu- liar to Westminster school ? — Quite so. 666. (Mr. Thompson.) Have you not heard com- plaints on the ground of the system of education at other schools, that they neglect to provide any means of encouraging presence of mind, self-reliance, and fluency of speech ? — Yes, I have beard sentiments of that kind expressed. 657. Do you think to a certain extent that this system of challenges at Westminster school meets those objections ? — Y'es, to a certain extent, and I mention that as one of its most valuable charac- teristics. 668. (Mr. Vaughan.) I think we have had already explained to us the duty of the helps in preparing the boys, but you have mentioned in your answers that they are also advocates for the candidates in the con- test. In what sense are they advocates ? — I mean that one boy puts a question to another, and having received his answer, questions may arise whether the answer is correct or not, or whether the question itself is a legitimate one or not. The boys are very keen in arguing such points. That is just v/hat I just now referred to when I said that it was an important means of teaching fairness. I have always said I should punish any attempt to argue dishonestly, by straining the laws to the utmost against the boys who did so. 669. I meant with respect to the functions of tho advocate. Does the help stand by the boys ? — Yes. 670. And would the advocate, or whatever he is called, defend the question on behalf of his pupil ? — • Y'"es, he would argue in his behalf just like a counsel before a judge, and even though he may have an untenable cause, his argument so far as it goes is generally fair. 671. ilave you as moderator occasion to interfere pretty actively during the course of the challenge, as well as to be present ? — It used to be extremely hard work to me at the outset. I have now become familiar with it, and therefore it is not so hard. Still it is a constant demand on one's attention which is never allowed to flag, because it often comes to a. question whether a wrong word is used, or a word has been wrongly pronounced. If, for instance, a boy make a false quantity or uses a word in a wrong place, such questions arise. I have to watch every- thing step by step and line by line. 672. Was it in its nature, as you found it when you first came to the school, a mere test of scholarship, or was it also a test of controversial power ? — It was a test of controversial power to some extent, and it depends very much indeed upon the training. 673. Especially as it was when you first came ? — The boys themselves are not engaged in the contro- versial part of the challenge. They do not argue it, 674. Not at all ? — They very seldom enter into the argument. 3G 418 PUBLIC SCHOOLS COMMISSION : — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. WEST- MINSTER. liev. C. B. Scott 675. It is the advocate then wlio takes up the argument ? — Yes. 676. The advocate on either side ? — Yes. 677. The promotion of the advocates is in no vray concerned in the issue ? — No, but they interest them- 23 June 1862. selves very much in the success of their men, as they are called. 678. But with re.'5pect to the places obtained, they do not affect the helps ?— No. The challenge as far as the men, as they are called, (though, of course, they arc only young boys,) is concerned, is mainly a test of accurate memory, iiresenco of mind, and self-possession. 679. Then I understand that as a discipline it affects two parties ; in the first place, the boys who are candidates for the new position in the school, and in the next place, those who are helps and advocates ? —Yes. 680. And it is in the latter part you have inter- fered actively to prevent sophisms being argued between the candidates ? — I have always set my face against them. 681. You have not considered sophistry as a part of logical discipline that might be beneficial, but you Lave interfered at once when they have been raised ? . — I have always endeavoured, as far as I could, to make the challenge a training for the boys, and to lay before them the principle on which I consider the highest questions should be decided. I have endea- voured to point out, not only the way in which they are decided, but also the principles upon which they Rre decided. 682. You did not think that the logical contro- versy was so precious a part of the institution as to make it desirable to permit the advocates on one side to expose the sophisms used by those on the other side ? — No, but they always do ; they are always veiy eager on the point, and they may say whatever they have to say. I assure you they do not want any spur ; but I found at first some used to have recourse to very dishonest arguments. 683. Would you call the sophisms of logic dis- honest arguments ? — There used to be attempts made to draw one off to something which was not really the point at issue, and which the boy who was arguing knew was not the point. Though I should wish to encourage ingenuity in anything, I could not allow him to argue what he knew to be a fallacy. 684. {Lord Clarendon.) You would not allow any sharp practice ? — No. 683. {Mr. Vaughan.) Did you not leave it to them to analyze the causes of the unfairness ? — I always endeavoured to point out the unfairness, but it was hardly necessary, for the opponent would see it quickly enough. I felt that if I allowed such argu- ments I should be really giving a prize to dishonest .ingenuity merely, whicli I considered would be most unjust. 686. Is there any reward given to the advocate, or anything which he has at stake at all, except that he feels an interest in his own candidate, and would be naturally desirous that he should triumph ? — Yes. 687. What is that ? — It is a fee. In former times it appears that some fee was permitted to be paid to the helps by the man whom they trained in this way ; and then that fee gradually increased until it became so serious that I was obliged to lay down a law about it. I found it was the custom for each boy so lielped to pay 10/. to the lielp, while the boy who got iu first paid 15/., and I found that this payment of lo/. had grown up in three years, and there was every probability of its increasing. I therefore sent a letter to the parents on the subject, of whicli I can give you a copy if you require it. 688. (Lord Lyttelton.) What came of that inter- ference ?— I made a rule that the amount should not be more than 5/. in each case ; and that it should be given in books, a practice which I found was in accordance with the old usage. 689. {Mr. Vaughan.) Then there always has been a usage that the help or advocate should receive something for his services ? — Yes, though I am told in old times it was generally declined. 690. But the practice had gradually grown up ? — Yes ; and I found it existing in this rather gross shape of a fee of 10/. or 15/. from the captain, with the prospect of its being raised to 20/. 691. Was it conducted on the principle of " No '•' cure, no pay ; " Did the advocate of the unsuccessful candidate receive anything ? — That wasthe old usage, but even that was in process of abolition, and I found that the boys were, in seme cases, getting paid for the year before the candidate actually stood. 692. We understand that it was the custom of a help to have as many pupils as he could attend to, consequently this must be to some a lucrative employ- ment ? — Yes, and when I made the change one of the boys would have received from 70/. to 75/. in cash. 693. I suppose the advocates are always taken from the sixth form ? — Generally, not always. 694. May it happen that a boy on a lower form, but of great ability in this line, would be taken ? — Yes ; 1 have seen a young boy sometimes make a very good help. 695. May I ask how much you suppose it is pos- sible, in the present state of the institution, for a boy to realize in this way ? — He might have four or five pupils, in which case he would have 25/. worth of books. 696. {Lord L^yttelton.) This system of fees is not referred to at all in your evidence ? — No, I was not asked about it. 697. Is it now limited to 5/. for the successful boys ? — Yes. 698. How are the clients assigned to each help ? — They apply to the helps themselves. 699. They arrange it amongst themselves ? — Yes. 700. At the examination conducted by the boys, do the questions which are asked have reference to the schoolwork entirely, or would they range as widely as they please in asking questions of each other ? — I have already said that the contest is governed by rules occasionally modified. There are regular rules. Each takes a passage, for example, of Latin and Greek, reads it, and construes it, and that must be done quite according to rule. 701. {Mr. Vaughan.) What you have told us about the reward being the consequence of success makes it the more necessary that the Head Master should be there to moderate ? — There must be .i moderator, or the contest could not be carried on. 702. {Lord Lyttelton.) I suppose the parents do not care about the 51. in case of the success of their sons? — No, but there must bo some limitation. There were other dues on entering college, payments for certain things which w^ere transferred to the new Queen's scholars when they came in. They got an old surplice and an old gown, and two or three other things, but the payment of 10 guineas was unreasonably large, and likely still further to inci'ease. The vitality of an abuse is wonderful. The only thing was to reduce it gradually, and to say that each year something less should be received. 703. Was it the scholars who received it ? — Yes. Dr. Liddell began the reduction by saying that every one should receive a guinea less, and we have now got down to 4/. or 5/. 704. {I^ord Devon.) What amount of extra work is done by the helps. How many hours have they in addition to the ordinary schoolwork ? — I can hardly answer the question exactly, but a great deal. 705. They get up an hour or two earlier than usual, perhaps ? — Yes, two or three. 706. The boys come to them, I suppose, about half-past six ? — As early as half-past five o'clock, and they work at intervals in school and play hours. The extent of interference with the regular schoolwork which it causes is very serious. 707. So that there is really a quid pro quo ? — Yes. 708. {Mr. Vaughan.) In its present state, and with the present scale of remuneration, do you approve PUBLIC SCHOOLS COMMISSIOX :— MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 419 of it ? — I ilo not til ink of making any serious altera- tions. 709. {Lord Devon.) You would not wish to see it abolisheil ? — It has become such an historical tradition, and there arc so many advantages connected with it, tliat I think tlicro are quite as many argu- ments for its retention as for its abolition. 710. {Mr. Vaiighan.) I asked the question simply in regard to remuneration. You do not consider that an essential part of the challenge system at all ? — I think it would be difficult, the remuneration having so long existed, to get the work done without it. Some of it is very hard labour. 711. It is a peculiar way of instituting a sort of private tutor system among the boys themselves ?— Yes; but the ditlicultv of obtaining an effectual super- vision over it is consider.ible, because the boys do not like interference, and indeed one is somewhat un- willing to interfere. 712. {Lord Clarendon.) With respect to Bishop Williams's scholarships, there is a reference here to No. 16, in which it is stated that.directions were given for the election of four hoys on the foundation, who were to have gowns furnished to them, their meals in hall, like Queen's scholars, and to occupy the cham- ber which the bishop provided for them. Further directions are given for their election and promotion to St. John's College, Cambridge ; and then you state that this last benefaction is wholly lost to the school ? —Yes. 713. How is it lost ? — Bec!\use at the time of the University Commission there was a clause which enabled them to conliscato to the College any such scholarships which had not been enjoyed within a certain time by those who were entitled to them. 714. Why was it that nobody enjoyed those scho- larships ? — Because the school was so low, and there were so few going to St. John's (in fact scarcely any went to St. John's from Westminster), and because the college kept tlie advantages, as far as they could, in their own hands. 715. Then you say they have been put an end to ; confiscated, in fact ? — Yes, they are entirely gone. 716. {Lord Li/ttehon.) Long ago, probably? — Well, they are practically all gone. I tried to make a fight for them, but without success. There was some compromise about to be proposed, but it was discovered under the University Commission order that the whole thing had lapsed, and then St. John's College refused to enter into the arbitration wliich they had previously proposed. 717. You did not accept the compromise ? — No ; not in the form in which it was proposed. We agreed, however, to refer it to ai'bitration. 718. {3Ir. Vaughan.) Do you consider that the suppression of the benefactions was contrary to the .interests of Westminster, and unnecessary ? — I cannot say unnecessary, because it was under the statutes. It was done, in point of fact, by the University Commission Act. 719. {Lord Clarendon.) But the establishment had not availed itself of the benefactions for a long time ? — No. 720. It did not think it was of much value to Westminster ? — It might have been, and I tliink would be now. 721. {Mr. Thompson.) Was the value large ? — They proposed to give us 50/. a year. 722. And the Chapter, what did they say ? — They thought we were entitled to more. We proposed to refer it to arbitration, and Sir W.Wood vi'as asked to arbitrate ; but he declined to do so, as he was a Com- missioner. Eventually the authorities of St. John's College found it had lapsed, and they wrote to say that they would not refer it. 723. {I^ord Devon.) For what time had it lapsed ; that is to say, how long since had Westminster omitted to avail itself of the benefaction ? — I cannot call to mind exactly. It was beyond the time of course that ^vas limited in the Act. The last person who held it WEST- MINSTEU. C. n. Scon. was Sir Patrick Colquhoun, now Lord High Com- missioner of the Ionian Islands. 724. (Zorrf Clarendon.) The scholarships still exist. There are four boys still on the foundation of Bisliop Williams, are there not ? — Yes. 725. It says here, " For trouble concerning them, 23 June Ur,'. " the Dean is to receive 10^., the Treasurer 5s., and — " the Head Master 5s. yearly." Do they continue to receive these sums ? — As to receiving them, I do not believe they do ; but t!iat is the provision named. It is my tr.anslatiou of the old deed. 726. The " trouble," what does that mean ? — The Head Master is to receive 5*. for teaching, and tho Dean, I presume, is to receive 10*. to enter the names and superintend. 727. The income of the foundation is 72/. a year ; how is that disbursed ; is it distributed amou"- tho four boys ? — Yes, it is distributed annually. I have said here that my predecessor altered the system by abolishing the blue gown, and that he offered to remit all tuition fees on condition of receiving the dividend", about 17 guineas each year. If you multiply these 17 c;uineas yearly by 4, you will find it to amount to 71/. 8s. 728. {3Ir. Vaughan.) How ai;e they elected ? — By examination. The candidates present themselves, and then, if I have several candidates, I hold an exa- mination in the presence of the Dean, and take the boy best qualified. 729. Do the candidates always come from the localities specified ? — Generally they do ; but some- times we have boys from Westminster in default of Welsh and Lincoln boj's. 730. Do you think that a fair average come fronr there ? — I think so. The records are not in my pos- session, although I could get at them at any moment. 731. Do you consider that the mode in which thai benefaction of 72/. annually is dealt with is a goo(' one, or do you think that it would be improved by throwing it all into one sum, and giving it to one scholar onl_y. Do you con.sider that if it were put into such a shape as that it would be more beneficial ? — I think it would be more beneficial to the school if it "were divided into two portions, and given on open examination, because it would en.able ns to draw more promising boys to the school ; but I do not know that there exists any ground for destroying tha original foundation. 732. I merely wish to ask you whether you con- sider that it would be more beneficial to the school if that sura were either lumped together or divided into , two scholarships, and given after competition ? — Yes; if you gave me 72.'. a year I should never dream of putting it on the present basis. 733. {Lord Devon.) I apprehend that the social position of the boys on that foundation is rather inferior to that of other boys in the school ? — No ; I think not. 734. It used to be in my time ? — Yes, they woro blue gowns, which of course had its effect. 735. Supposing a boy holding one of Bishop Williams's benefactions became a candidate, and obtained admission into college on tho conipetitivo system, would he still retain the benefaction ? — No ; that question was raised in my predecessor's time, and it was decided that admission to the college vacated Bishop Williams's benefixction, the ground on which it was so decided being that Bishop Williams's intent was to increase the foundation by four. Tho boys were to have meals in hall like the Queen's scholars, and to be kept up to the number which tho bishop provided for. 13ishop Williams was rather in the habit of leaving an inadequate provision for keeping up what he established. They complain of him in that respect at St, John's. 736. {Lord Clarendon.) "The statutes contem- " plate the admission of pensioners, town boys, and " others to the number of 80, in addition to tho " Queen's scholars and choristers.'' That number has been exceeded very greatl}^ has it not ? — Yes. I found the other day, in some notes of old Chapter 3G 2 420 PUBLIC SCHOOLS COMMISSION :— MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. WEST- MINSTER. Itev. C. B. Scott. orders which Dr. Curetoii lent me, a record from which it appears that before the year 1600 the Chapter resolved to get subscriptions from godly dis- posed persons, in order to enable them to fit up the present school-room as a school-room, because the 23 June 186". number of boys was too large for the original school, so that before the year 1600 an increase took place. 737. But 80 is the limit contemplated in the strcbably a good speculation. At tho present moment, I dare say, I should not bo able to find any one willing to undertake a venture of such magnitude. 876. Would it not be better for the Dean and Chapter, instead of letting houses in Dean's Yard on lease, to let them from year to year, so that you might have the option of trying one of them as a boarding house. Do you imagine that there would bo any objection to that ? — I .should imagiue that tenants on the terraco might demur to a boarding house being established next door. 877. Is it not a decided prohibition to the health of the school that it should bo confined with respect to boarding houses ? — Yes. 878. So that whatever increased number of boys might come to the school, tho boarding houses would not increase ? — I do not think tho school will progress much where it is. 879. {Mr. Vaughan.) Do you find that the boys who have failed in their trials leave the school soon after their failure ? — Not very much ; some do. 880. Do yon think it can be traced to their having failed in their object ? — Yes. 881. Do you think that the boys that remain, having failed, become discontented and careless, and fall behind in their work until they leave the school ? — Those who fail wore for the most part not diligent boys before, and it docs not make much difference. As a general rule, tho competition has not been sufli- cient to exclude any boy of much promise. 882. Considering the length of time that elapses between the success of tho boys in getting places in tho challenge and their going to the universities, do they require any slinuilus in the meantime to keep them up to tlieir work ? — I have introduced the sti- mulus of altering tho places. I think it was very much wanted. The matter was discussed before tho Committee of which Lord Devon was a member. 1 think some change was very urgently called for, by which there should be some promotion in the four years that elapsed between the admission to tho col- 3G 4 42i PtTELIC SCHOOLS eOlIJIISSION : — SflXUTES OF E\-^IDEXCE'. WERT- MINSTER. Rev. C. B. Scott. ST June 18G2. J. Mure, Esq. lege and llic ultimate election ; and now, when I see a, "(Iccided superiorit}-, I give a boy a liighei- place in the annual review of the college before tbe Dean. 883. Above that which ho occupied in the former year ? — Yes : a higlier place iii the- list of liis own year. The witness withdrew. 884. (Lord Clarendon.) You were scholar at Westminster, I believe ? — Yes. 885. Any information you could give us VThich you think likely to prove beneficial to the school we should feel extremely obliged to you for. What are the particular points to which you wish our attention to be directed ? — There are some opinions which I entertain as to the difference in the manner in which education is carried en at the school now, and the way in which it was carried on in my time, to which I wish to call attention. But the question will extend itself through the general range of education. Every- body knows that in former times there was nothing in the world taught at public schools but Latin and Greek ; indeed, I may say that the education was confined to grammar. There was a simplicity about the whole system and the manner in which it was carried on, which 1 think tended to initiate in a young lad habits of self-confidence, and that was done prin- cipally by promoting what I should call private study. We had at Westminster private studies. When a boy, about the age of 12 to 14, was in the fourth or fifth form, there was nothing to do but to instruct him in grammar, Latin, and Greek. The authors we had to read were studied solely with a view to con- struing and parsing. At the age of 14 wc got into the shell and the sixth form. There was then adopted a system of private study, independently of the form work. Every boy was expected to enter upon a career of private study, and to ask the Head Master to grant him permission to read particular books. The par- ticular books read at the time I was there were Virgil, Homer, Xenophon, Cicero, Sallust, Sophocles, and Euripides. I read these during the five years that I was in college. 886. Was this private study with private tutors ? — No, the Head Master watched over the private study of the boys. That was his business. He went round every Saturday, with a pen in his hand, and made the marks on the pages of the book which the boy was reading, and compared it with a similar entry made in respect to private study the previous week. 887. Would you think that was sufhcient assist- ance given by a master to a boy in, his private study on such advanced subjects ? — He had the boys up one by one for examination. It came round to each boy once a fortnight, and he questioned him for about three-quarters of an hour, in order to ascertain whether the progress which he professed to have made was real and true. The Head l\Iaster conducted the examination entirely himself, and the result was that at the time I was a boy there I had read the iEneid of Virgil twice over, the Iliad and Odyssey of Homer twice over, Xenophon's Anabasis, the Cyro- pajdia, Sophocles, about 12 of the Tragedies of Euripides, the Tuscuhms of Cicero, and Sallust. You will probably think that those who did that were unusually willing i eadere, but, 1 assure you, there were many suc-h eases. Now the greatest extent of Homeric reading seems to be for a boy to get through four books of the Iliad. I think that that was a very good system, because it inspired a boy with a certain feeling of confidence, and he felt a pride in his pro- gress. 888. But do you not think that a system which may have been very successful with yourself, or with any boy who was really desirous of making great progress, might not be so successful with alF, or of great advantage to boys who did not manifest a desire to advance, but who required a stinmlus to be applied to them ? — No doubt there was a great number of boys who did not and who never would look into their taoks ; biit the^ were all forged to attend to fonu James Mure, Esquire, examined. Queen's woik as well. I think tftie mnster took this vrew ef the matter : ihat there was a certain number of boys really of great promise, and some who never would become scholars, but lie advanced theia all pari passu, because it is^ a bad thing for a7a eldep boy to remaiii behind with the younger ones, and left it to the? private- study system to distinguish those who worked well from those who did not. 8S9. Was it substantially the fact that those wlio desired to advance themselves ini'der this system could do so successfally ? — Yes, there can be- no doubt of it. 890. {Lord L>/ Melton.) Who was the Head' Master? — Dr. Carey, and a vei'y admirable man he was for tha Eaanagement of boys. In. those days young men were allowed to wosk at Oxford in their rooms alone ; they were allowed to ivad in their closets, and they were inspected in th& same manoer by tl>eir tutors about once a week or fortnight, so that, having previously worked in the school in this way, when they went to Christ Church they continued the sanoe plan. When that system was done away with, I think a great denl of time was lost by tutors not allo-wing their jimpils time to read alone, tlicir attention being cliiefly dire-cted to. he^aring lectures. I have beea told by young men over and over again that all their time in Christ Church has been taken up by running across from one quadrangle to another, to attend a lecture perhaf)S from 10 to 11, and another from 11 to 1, or at some other time, so that they had fjcver an opjxirtunity of settling down to their books to study. I think that has done a great deal of harm to Christ Church. Of course, I know very well that a Head Master can only be expected to adopt a system of which he himself approves, because he aidopts it; on his own responsibility, and his own reputatioa is at stake. But I have pointed out this matter to Mr. Scott, and I thought he was inclined to approve of it in some itspect at first ; but I tliink the system which is pursued, both at school and the university, at present is productive of a great loss of time, and that the boj's do not go. out with the same amount of reading that they did when I went to Westminster. I left it in 1817. 891. Do you not think you are deducing from your individual case a general rule ? — No. There were many in the college who had beaten me. I only mention my own case because I know the facts more accurately. It was but an average case, showing the working of the school. 892. You seem to have read a great many books thoroughly, and some of them twice over. Were there many boys who did the same? — There were many in my time that did exactly the same. 893. {Mr. VavgJtan.) Do you think ther© were many eitlier at that time or since who had read 12 plays of Euripides ? — About 12 plays. 894. Do you think there were many who read what you did ? — Yes. Of the seven highest boys in my election, five gained university honours ; and one of those who did not might easily have done so had he tried, for he was as good as the best. There was one wrangler, one first class in classics, one first class in mathematics, and one boy who gained every prize at Oxford. 895. Do you think there was then more reading, but a less critical method of reading books than there is now ? — There was more ground got over. The books were read at first thoroughly gramatically, afterwards with as much attention to criticism as boys are capable of. 896. Do you think that the boys who were at that tinie reading in a general manner would read the PUBLIC SCHOOLS COMMISSION: — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 425 books without entering into the minutiae of grammar ? — They would not enter into the niinutiaa of gram- mar, perhaps, in reading these books ; they would read them with reference to criticism or to the examination. We were well grounded in grammar before we began this system. AYe were engaged for two years in studying the book which was considered the best of all grammars for our purpose, namely, Busby's ; and we were never allowed to pass over a single word without repeating every rule of construc- tion, arid parsing every part of speech. In order to show how we were grounded in Greek, I may mention that when I went to Oxford I did not take up a sufficient number of books for the highest honours, but when the time came for me to be exam- ined, I was asked whether I had any objection to be examined in other Greek books, and I said that I had read Euripides at school. They took the book, and, opening it, gave me passages to read and translate, and I certainly did it in such a way as to show that I had not read it superficially when I was at school, for they were satisfied. 897. {Lord Lyttelton.) Would you not have known Euripides from your general scholarship, so far as being able to translate it ? — It might be so ; Btill I found I remembered it well ; and had donq that well at school on the whole. 898. (3/r. Vaughan.) May I ask you if the masters of the forms were good Greek scholars generally ? — Yes. The masters of the fourth and fifth forms were Fellows of Trinity. 899. And had plenty to impart if you had con- tinued to work under their eyes ? — Yes. 900. (AorrfZJfroH.) Are we to understand that this system of private study is entirely abolished ? — Yes ; I think by Dr. Williamson. About the time Dr. Lid- dell came, or perhaps it might be a year afterwards, I ■was with Dr. Williamson in the college gardens one day, and ho was astonished at what I told him in respect to the private study. I should say that at that time we had three half-holidays in the week, and therefore we had plenty of time to work. I dare say there are many old Westminsters now who could hardly tell the amount of reading that they have gone through. 901. Do you think that after the time the private studies were abolished, and concurrently with the abolition of that system, there was more work done in the schools ? — There was more of different sorts, but not so much Greek and Latin. 902. Do you think they read more books ? — No ; I should think not. There were arithmetic, Euclid, and other branches of learning introduced, but our time was entirely taken up l)y the study of the gram- mar of the two learned languages. 903. Supposing you were in the shell and engaged in private studies, what books would you be reading in the form ; you would be five hours in the day there, would you not ? — Five and a half hours ou Mondays, Wednesdays, and Fridays ; only three on the alternate days, wliich were half-holidays. In the morning school we had a book called Oratinnes Gra-cce, and extracts from Livy. In the form work the boys were called cut singly by the master to construe in front of the form, and questions were put on style and histor}'. 904. Do you not think that the abolition of pri- vate studies implies on the whole that there is more work done in the school ? — Less of the classics ; more of arithmetic and Euclid. 905. But there are less classics ? — Yes; it may be more accurately done now, but I am sure if my son should go to Oxford, after having read only the four first books of the Iliad, he would be placed in a very different position to what I was, having read the Iliad and the Odyssey twice over. 906. Would you say that it is an admitted fact that Westminster does not carry its head as high at Oxford as it used to do ? — It does not, and it is a curious fact, notmthstanding in those days the students of Christ Church elected from Westminster 1. fand who composed something like two-fifths of the whole of the college) were actually elected by interest, for Dean Jackson did not deny that he elected tliose belonging to old Westminsters and Christ Church families through interest. When the system of com- petition and special examination as to the merits of each boy was introduced, and the examination was thrown completely open, the decline of the college was contemporaneous with the change. That is a very singular thing, and I cannot account for it, but I have no doubt whatever about it. From the time I have known the college, which is 50 years (and I have known the school as long), up to Gaisford's reign, the boys were elected upon the principle of interest. Gaisford was contemporaneous with Williamson. 907. Do you think that the system of private studies to some extent ought to be reintroduced ? — I do, and, as I have already said, the same principle should be carried out in the colleges at Oxford. At present everything depends upon lectures. There is a disposition to reduce everything to a matter of attendance upon lectures, and to keep the young men running about from one quadrangle to another for the purpose of attending some half dozen lectures in the day. 908. (Lord Clarendon.) Do you consider that the system of which you have spoken would be beneficial to a great majority of the boys, or only to a few ? — I think it would be beneficial to the majority, because it would be a means of inspiring them with self-confidence. I think if it were intro- duced in a modified degree it would prove advanta- geous. They have not as much time as they used to have for private study, but still their facilities for private studies are very great, and those facilities arc first offered at an age when it is necessary they should be in some degree emancipated from school harness. You might drive 20 or 30 boys in the same harness in the earlier forms of the school, and teach them from one book until they got well grounded, but at a certain period of life you should teach a boy what it is to distinguish himself single-handed ; and I think that the system of private study is much more effectual for such a purpose than any other, pro- vided the proper superintendence is given by the tutors. 909. (Lord T^ytlelton.) You do not think that the system of private tutors is absolutely essential for that ? — No, I do not. 910. (L^ord Clarendon.) Judging from your recol- lection of Christ Church, would you say that those voung man who complain of having their time take up by attending lectures would employ it in reading ? -^I am quite sure of it. I think that it was the reading men who felt the inconvenience of the inter- ruption to their studies, which was occasioned by their being continually called upon to pack up their books and attend lectures. These were the very men who felt it. 911. Yes, they might feel it; but would others, who formed the generality of those who were at Christ Church, would they, if they had not lectures to attend to, be reading privately ? — I think they would, because they would be forced to make a cer- tain show at the college terminal examination before the vacation, and they would fear to be found fault with and criticised according to their progress. I think they would have quite as good an opportunity of being idle when attending lectures as when they were doing anything else, and generally those who objected most to the lectures were those who were best able to do the work. 912. In yonr time there was not much opportunity for the study of geography, history, the modern lan- guages, or mathematics ? — Not in the school ; we left all that to the university. 913. And did it follow from that that young men always learned at the university history, geography, mathematics, and the modern languages ? — We read through the regular course of Greek and Roman history, and of course we obtained a knowledge of 3 M WEST- MINSTEE. J. Mure, Esq. 23 Junel8G2. 42G PUBLIC SCHOOLS COJMISSION : — SIINUTES OF EVIDENCE. MT.ST- JIINSrEH. J. Mure, Esq. 23 June 1S62. ancient geography. With respect to modern geo- graphy, one might get a good idea of the geography of Europe in a three weeks' tour up the Khiue. 914. But you could not learn modern history in the same way ? — The attention is then drawn to it with more interest. Of course I can only speak with the most confidence of what I did myself. I have read modern historj', but I knew nothing about Gibbon then, or Hume, or Robertson. I subsequently read these liistories by myself in the long vacations. But when you come to force, if a boy, after a certain time, will not read except by force, I am afraid you must give it up as a bad job. 915. Do you think that a journey up the Rhine would promote a knowledge of modern languages as well as modern geography? — The study is at least presented with greater interest, and the know- ledge acquired in less time. I had some little know- ledge of French, and I learnt Italian and French fluently in a year and a half. I had been at French, more or less, since I was seven years of age, and I went abroad during the long vacation and got up Italian and French perfectly fluently. I think that in respect to most tilings, when the mind has been thorouglily disciplined in early days by tho .study of something that requires intellectual exer- tion, the acquirement in after life of such things as geography, chronology, and so on, is comparatively easy. The mind is prepared and methodized as it were for the reception of knowledge, and is enabled to grasp it with case. I know that I have learnt five times as much since I have grown up from youtli's estate ; that I am sorry to say is a long time ago ; but I am perfectly convinced that during the first 10 years after I left Oxford, I learnt five times as much as 1 did at school, and by having been put to learn things which required great intellectual exertion when I was at school, I mastered those things much more easily than if I had learnt them at school. In point of fiict, I took much more in- terest when I was grown up in mastering geography and chronology than if I had had to learn tliem as part of my sciiool duties. What they did for me at school was to make me work hard at something which required great intellectual exertion, such, for instance, as Greek and Latin. Having done that, the intellect became disciplined and ready to be applied to any branch of knowledge whatever which was required. 916. Have you any very strong opinion as to the practicability as well as of the expediency of restor- ing more or less a system which you appear to think was so advantageous? — Well, you know it is one thing to find fault with changes that may have been made, and another to retrace your steps ; but I think that system might be adopted partially. I have fre- quently talked to Mr. Scott upon the subject, and he seems disposed to view things much in the same light that I do ; but the fact is, that in the present genera- tion a greater variety of knowledge is attempted to be imparted, and Mr. Scott has not made any attempt to introduce the old system, though I believe that at one time he thought that there was a possibility of introducing something of the sort into the school. If I was master of Westminster school I would begin to introduce it to-morrow, though of course I would do it by degrees. 917. Perhaps as an old Westminster you have formed some opinion as to the desirability of remov- ing the school to another locality, which is a question that interests many people ? — I have pledged myself to do all that I can to induce people to allow us to remain where we are. I feel very strongly upon that point, and am a great apostle of the genius loci. For my own part I cannot but think that the decline of the school is attributable in a great degree to what I may call the dilapidation of the premises, which is a great impediment to the progress of the school and one of the many causes of tho decrease of numbers. Pothers and mothers go there, and seeing the appear- ance of the school and tlie neighbourhood, are horri- fied at sending their children there ; whereas in tho beginning of the present century half the nobility were educated in places tlie purlieus of which were just as bad as those of Whitechapel, and where you could scarcely go a yard outside the gates with- out encountering the risk of being knocked down, Formerly it used to be the practice of parents to look upon scliool not only as a place where their children were to be taught, but where they were to be inured to all sorts of hardships, and to be flogged and licked into shape. I have frequently heard my father say, " Never believe what a boy says of his own school." The late Duke of York always used to say, "If you want to send a boy to rough it in the army, send him to Westminster school." I have no doubt the hardships were very great, but it cannot be denied that the system produced splendid boys and men. 918. {Mr. Vaughan.) Is it a system which you would wish to see restored ? — No, I don't think it would suit the present times, certainly ; nor do I mean to say that just as brave ofiicers and soldiers are not sent out now as formerly ; I merely mention it as a rough way they had of bringing up boys. 919. {Lord Clare?idon.) That is not a part of tlie old Westminster system which you say you would Y^ish to see restored ? — No ; nor would it be possible. You could not now expect the public to put up with the limited accommodation in Westminster school, which existed in my day. There were four boarding houses, some of which you visited yesterday, two in Little Dean's Yard, and two in Great Dean's Yard, one of which was the large house with a pediment in the centre of the terrace. In those days there were 300 boys in the schools, of whom 40 were Queen's scholars, and about 40 home boarders. About 220 boarders were shopped in those four boarding houses, crannned together and placed higgeldy-piggeldy, side by side and topsy-turvy, like pigs in a stye. There they were, some blacking shoes, others cooking mutton chops, others boiling collee, all in one room together doing all sorts of things. In point of fact those boarding houses were perfect pigstj'cs ; yet the boys' fathers and mothers used to go and see them there, and tliey used to think nothing of it. Now nothing of that kind would bo submitted to in the present day. I confess the greatest difficulty we experience is to provide sufficient accommodation for the school, so as to give it that appearance which would be more in accordance with the views of the present genera- tion of what a great public school should be. If you could clear away everything between the school and the Abbey, and make the Abbey one side of a quadrangle of which the other three sides should be composed of handsome Tudor buildings, and so on, so as to make a clean appearance, like the colleges at Oxford and Cambridge, people would come to you and be so pleased with the appearance of it that you would have the school full almost directly. 920. Do you consider the falling off in the number attending the school is to be attributed to the want of proper accommodation rather than to its being situated in the locality in which it is ? — I really do, because there are a great many families who, living in London, prefer to send their sons to Westminster on account of the convenience of the distance. I do for one, and I think it is very liard that I should not be able to do so. There are plenty of country schools, but as an individual, I prefer having my boy in London, because I like to see how he is going on. The metro- polis ought not to be without a public school. 921. There has always been a system of allowing boys to go home on Saturday afternoons and remain till Monday? — That has always been considered a great convenience. 922. {lUr. Vmighan.) That applies principally to the parents of children living in London ? — Yes. 923. {Lord Lyttelton.) And that is a large class ? — No doubt it does apply more to people living in London than to others who have not that benefit. 924. {Mr. Vaughan.') But is there not a lai^go rUELIC SCHOOLS COMMISSION : —MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 427 Westminster connexion in the country as well ? — Ye5, no doubt. 925. Do you think the present (jeneration repre- senting that connexion entertains the same feelings respecting the advantages of tlie sdiool being situato at Westminster as tiiose ■who live in London ? — They need not send their sons to Westminster if they do not like, but the proof that the situation does not in- fluence them is to be found in the fact that they do send their sons there, knowing that they can give them country air in the holidays. With ix>gard to sending boj'sto Westminster school, I think if a bo}' could be sent there and still remain in constant communication with his parents and family, he is less likely to get into mischief than he would be otherwise. No doubt the parental control is much stronger if there is that constant communication. Another advantage in favour of the present site is the vicinity of the school to the Houses of Parliament and the courts of law. You are aware that the boys have certain privileges of attending the House of Commons and the courts. They see wliat is going on in actual life and take an interest in it. The vicinity of the Houses of Parlia- ment, especially is an advantage. I remember when I was at Westminster school 1 used whenever I could to run across Palace Yard and into the Houso of Commons and the courts, and hear what was going on. I consider that a very great privilege ; and as far as morality is concerned, I am perfectly satisfied that Westminster school is as moral as any public school. I was two years a senior at Westminster, and if there was any mischief going on it was alwa3-s a matter of mystery, and not a matter of general con- versation among the boys. Some few of the boys may have got into mischief now and then, but there are so man}- attractions in London that the induce- ments to immorality are really much less than one ■would expect, for when a boy gets out of school he will perhaps run otf to some kind of exhibition or other, such as Madame Tussaud's or German Keed's, and then come back again and not end his time in getting into mischief in the dirty purlieus of tho town. 926. {Lord Lyltelton.') In your judgment, there is no great temptation to immorality in consequence of the school being on its present site ? — There is no greater temptation on the present site than in any other part of London, nor so much. The dirty streets that formerly surrounded Westminster Abbey were quite the reverse of tempting. If you went there you ran the risk of being murdered. i\Iy own experience has been that there was no gener.al counte- nance given to immorality by the boys. No doubt, occasionally, they got into mischief, but if they did commit anything that was an impropriety, the ■way in which that was received by the other boys was such that no countenance whatever was aflbrded to impro- priety of conduct. For instance, I may mention this : swearing was very much more the habit of the young than it is now, but I can recollect the time when, if any Westminster boy was in the habit of swearing, he was looked upon by the other boys with something like horror, and they would say to each other, " What " a blackguard he is." In that way such things would be kept down, and certainly not rendered popular. Any boy would consider it a great disgrace to be charged with anything in the shape of immo- rality before the rest of the boys. 927. You are speaking now of the time when you were a boy ? — Yes, and I am perfectly satisfied that we were as good as the boys of any school. I have heard stories respecting Eton and Harrow, and other places, which rather lead me to believe that the boys in those schools can get into public-houses and run about the country into a good deal of mischief ; and we all know that goes on very much at Oxford. I am perfectly certain that Westminster is quite as good as any other school in this respect. 928. (Lord Devon.) I think that it would be satis- factory to the Commissioners if, on the assumption of no removal taking place, you would indicate what alterations as regards the premises or general arrange- ments you would tliink it desirable should be made ? — I tliink one of the leading features of the alterations should be to throw open College Gardens. 929. Every day, do you mean, or on Sundays ?— I would have those gardens thrown open every day. If I had the thing in ray own hands, I would throw College Gardens and Little Dean's Yard into one quadrangle, and have nice buildings erected, instead of the mews that are there. I think you might, with the assistance of College Gardens, make a handsome quadrangle with an area something like that at Christ's Hospital in Newgate Street, or still more perhaps like the smaller colleges in Oxford. 930. Large as the expense might be which would be necessary to connect College Gardens with Little Dean's Yard, you think it would be advisable to incur it ? — Yes, if the money could be found. 931. Would it be desirable to cut off a small por- tion of them for the use of the people who live in the houses ? — No doubt ; that ■would, at all events, pre- vent the boys talking to the nurse-maids. 932. Yv'ould any limitation as to hours be practi- cable ? — It would be perfectly optional for them to have the gardens open at what hours they liked. You might say after 2 o'clock, and the children belonging to the prebendal houses might take their walks in the morning. 933. Can you indicate any other alteration with regard to the building or the grounds ? — No, I have nothing that suggests itself to my mind at present. I was, in the first instance, in favour of pulling down the boarding houses, and either building them up or having more, and making such alterations as we might be able to make, providing that no obstacle interfered. 934. Do you think that a more enlarged communi- cation between Great and Little Dean's Yard would be of advantage and importance ? — Yes, I think the taking down of Woodfall's house would be of im- portance. 935. What would 3-011 put in their place, a pas- sage, or would you build any other house ? — I do not know that the Dean and Chapter could be benefited by it, their revenue being in the hands of tho Eccle- siastical Commissioners ; but I suppose tlie Chapter would be content with about 30 feet, wliich would give 40 as an opening to Dean's Yard. 936. You are aware that since my time and yours, considerable additions have been made. Additional rooms have been built for the boys and others given up. The library in your time v.'as not used as a class room ? — No. 937. Do you know that there has been a gymna- sium established ? — Yes. 938. There are three rooms attached to the school and the gymnasium ? — Yes ; I would not make any alteration in the school room. It is capable of holding 320 boys. It is a fine room if it were properly cleaned, but you cannot deal with the names. There is a peculiar sanctity attached to the names, and you cannot touch them. There are few rooms in London finer than Westminster school, with its chestnut roof. 939. Is it your idea that a diiBculty would exist in procuring more boarding house accommodation, supposing the number of boys in the school to in- crease ? — Yes, the Dean and Chapter have not so many houses in Dean's Yard as they had in my time ; there were the centre house and two boarding houses in Little Dean's Yard, and a house on the site of the one that is now building, or has been recently built. 940. Assuming that there is a demand for 40 additional boys who might come to the school, could they provide for them now ? — I do not know how they could manage unless they could take some of the houses in Victoria Street or the neighbourhood, ivhich would be most available, because the Dean and Chapter have let all the houses on the terrace, and I do not know where we could put the boys. 941. Are they let on lease ? — I do not know. 942. Would it not be paying a proper regard to 3 H2 WKST- MINSTER. J. Mure, Esii. i3 June 1861, 428 PUBLIC SCHOOLS COjIMISSION : — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. WEST- MINSTER. J. Mure, Esq. 23 June 1862. the welfare of the echool to expect that some of these houses should be held in sucli a manner that the Dean and Chapter might make them available for the accommodation of the boys, supposing the number to increase ? — Yes, that might be done with respect to all the houses in Dean's Yard. They might all be let by tlie Dean and Chapter to parties who might be bound in under-letting them to give the first refusal to the school. The witness withdrew. K. Phillimore, £sq. RoBEiiT Phillimork, Esq., D.C.L., examined. 943. (Lord Clarendon.) There are three or four points, Dr. Phillimore, with respect to which we wish to ask your opinion ; but I will ask you in the first place whether you, having heard Mr. Mure's evidence, concur generally in the opinions which he has ex- pressed ? — I was about to say that I am very glad that I have heard Mr. Mure's examination, because I came a generation after him, and certain changes took place in the school between his time and mine. {Lord Devon.) There were two generations, I think, between Mr. Mure and you. I believe I came between you. 944. {Dr. Phillimore.) There are one or two obser- vations which I wish to make in regard to what he has said. I certainly do think that the abolition ot private studies was a blow to the school ; because, in my opinion, it encouraged boys to read for their own benefit out of school, and during a portion of the time allotted to tlic play hours, whicli had a great effect in raising the character of the boys. The Head Master used to take notice of the boys who made the greatest progress, and he used to call them up when they least expected it, .and put them through their books. That was a very great trial at once to the boy's memory, his truthfulness, and his self-reliance. There was another thing too, which used to be a great feature in my time, I don't know whether it was in Mr. Mure's, it is connected with another part of the evidence, but I may as well mention it here. It was always the practice of the senior boy in college to take care of the junior boy, his fag, and he was brought up almost immediately under his eye, as it were. Indeed, the whole system was intended to work in gradation from the captain to the monitor, from the monitor to the senior, and so on ; so that the seniors always felt a great interest whether the juniors succeeded or failed. Much depends upon whether the master possesses the secret of making the boys trust him, by trusting to them, and rather appealing to their honour than exercising his autho- rity. The whole system of school discipline was built upon that foundation in my time, but with respect to the other matters to which Mr. Mure has alluded, as to the rough manner in which the boys were treated, I must say there has been a very great improvement since I was there. 945. {Lord Lytfelton.) Were there also great im- provements introduced during the time you yourself were there ? — I was about to say that a great im- provement was introduced in my time under Dr. Goodenough, who introduced the study of geography, ancient and modern ; that is to say, he introduced the study of Dr. Butler's geography, and he used to re- quire every boy, before he took his remove, to give the ancient and modern names of all the places in Greece and Italy. He introduced that kind of limited geography. Modern history was not taught in my time, but just as I was leaving the school, mathema- tics were being introduced into it. 946. {Lord Clarendon.) Mathematics not having been taught during- the first period of the time you were there ? — Nobody ever thought of teaching them. They were introduced just at the close of the time when I was there. 947. When was that ; about what time ?— It was about the year 1828. I left in December 1828, and the teaching of mathematics had begun that year. 948. Was it at the commencement of the year ? No ; at the close. I was about to say also that in my lime Hebrew was taught, and really eflSciently taught. It was carried on in one particular form, but I believe it has ceased to be taught now. We used to be called the seventh, I think, but I am not quite certain. I believe it is required to be taught by the statutes. 949. The seventh being a form above the sixth ? — Yes, it was a vei-y small form, and they never got further, I believe, than the Psalter, but many boys could read the Psalter in Hebi-ew. It was always the custom to make a Hebrew speech at the elections, as well as a Latin one. I heard Lord Harrington speak two lines of the Hebrew speech he spoke at Westminster school at a public dinner the other day. I have no doubt it was some set speech, but I recollect I myself learnt a little Hebrew. I concur entirely in what Mr. Mure h.as said about private studies, and I also agree with him in another observation he made ; (I speak openly in the presence of Mr. Scott, to whom I and all other old Westminsters are under great obligations) and, that is, that reading a por- tion of several authors at one time is much less advantageous to the boy than if he is reading only one, if he read that one thoroughly. Not only was there the attraction of novelty when one was i-eading Horace, Homer, and other books, but the general dis- cipline of the mind was far greater than when a hoy was reading extracts and scraps from several works. Westminster used to be famous for its knowledge of Homer. At the same time I think the introduction of the teaching of French is a great improvement, and a very great advantage to the boys in after life. Of course I am quite aware that the line must be drawn some- where, for if you were to teach all the modern languages at Westminster school, the natural consequence would be that the ancient languages would be ousted alto- gether, but French is so useful to boys that many of their parents are rather inclined to see them make progress in that language, even though they do not make so much in the Greek. I think myself that it is a very useful addition to the school teaching. A boy who knows the Latin grammar thoroughly, possesses the foundation, if I may so speak, of all grammatical knowledge, consequently the foundation of all modern languages. Nothing therefore is more important or more useful in after life than a thorough know- ledge of Latin, for even those who hold that the knowledge of modern languages alone is actually useful in life, must know that nobody can learn any modern language so easily as he who is thoroughly conversant with Latin. 950. Will you permit me to ask you whether you think that the system of private study, which to a certain extent you regret the loss of, like Mr. Mure, would be useful to the generality of the boys, or to a few of tliem only ? — I do not think it would be useful to any but the senior boys, and in point of fact it was never adopted except with respect to about 30 of the head boys of the school. Indeed I do nvt know that it ever reached as high as that. 951. {Mr. Thompson.) Thirty out of how many ? — In my time there were about 300 there. I do not know that it would at all answer for all the little boys, and, as for the boys in the lower form, I do not think it would answer at all. I think if you take the ages of the boys, it would answer very well for boys from 15 to about 16 and a half or 17. That is the age at which I have no doubt it would operate very well, especially if the Head Master had leisure and inclination to put to the test the boys' proficiency in their private studies. 952. {Lord Clarendon.) The success would de- pend very much upon the character of the superin- PUBLIC SCHOOLS COMMISSION : —MINUTES OF EVIDENCE 429 tendence given b}' the Head Master? — Very much indeed; that I quite admit; in fact I should say almost entirely. I wanted to say a word with regard to the general system of elections in college. 953. {Mr. Vaughan.) Before going to that point, will you be good enough to tell the Commission what place you would wish these private studies to occupy in the present condition of the school. Would you wish them to be substituted for anything that now exists, or do you suppose that there is any vacant time under the present system which would admit of the boys pursuing them, without sacrificing any of the things which they now do ? — I must give this answer. In my time there were three half-holidays, Tuesday, Thursday, and Saturday, which gave pretty good time for private reading and study. Now there are only two half-holidays a week, I believe ; but I should have thought that, with diligent and ambi- tious boys, there is still left time enough out of school to do, in addition to what they do in school, a certain amount of private study, especially when it is to be remembered that a boy can choose the book he likes best ; some the Odes of Horace, some the Georgics, some Homer, and, to show his taste in any classical line of reading which he likes. 954. If, as you suppose, they were to devote the half-holidays to it, would you not think that they would be devoting a liltle too much time to study in private, and too little to exercise ? — It would be a great evil, if that were the effect of private study. I think, however, it would rather be a question as to the amount of time which should be given to private study. I think there would be hardly a day during which some period could not be advantageously devoted to private study, if it received the appro- bation of the Head Master and he was disposed to cultivate it. 955. Do you think that private lessons should be given out, or that that is a matter which should be left to the discretion of the boys? — Ishould think it would be better to leave it entirely to the discretion of the master as to whether he would encourage private study. He might, from time to time, say to a boy, " Are you doing any private studies or not ?" 956. Would that, or would it not, interfere with the teaching of the school ? — I would rather not give a positive opinion upon that. But in giving out the work that was to be done out of school, there would be necessarily a great deal given out that would have been done in school. 957. Would there not be a difficulty in seeing where the additional work was to be edged in, as it were, without trenching on the school duty or the school play ? — No doubt it would depend on the work done in school as to the degree of private study to be done out, because if it did trench on the time for play, it would be a great evil. I feel strongly on that point. 958. {Lord Lyttelton.) I think your son is captain of the school ? — He is. 959. He will be leaving soon, I suppose ? — He will be leaving about this time next year, in the natural course of things. 960. What age is he ?— Sixteen. 961. I believe he has obtained considerable dis- tinction at Westminster school ? — He has done very well. 962. Do I understand he has no time, and never has had time to any extent at all, for private study ? — I do not say that ; for this very vacation I set him to do one of the Georgics, which he did not finish, and I said, " I daresay you will find plenty of time to " finish this, and read it with Dryden's translation." Nor did he think he would have any difficulty at all about the matter, and he knows I am a great advocate for his having his full play hours. 963. Is he a boy of good health ? — He is a boy of good health, but not a strong boy. He never was strong enough to take very violent exercise. 964. Can you say, taking one day with another, how much time a day he would spend in intellectual WEST- MINSTER. R. P/iillimor', Esq. work ? — No, I cannot answer the question. He has the whole routine of the school to do. 965. Do you expect that when your boy leaves Westminster school he will be thorouglily acquainted with Greek and Latin grammatically ?— I believe he will ; but he has had the good fortune to be under a 23 June 18C2. Head Master to whom Westminster has been much indebted. He has been extremely well taught. 966. {Lord Devon.) In your time was it the prac- tice to prepare lessons in school up to a certain period ? — Yes. 967. At Eton I believe the opposite system pre- vails, and the boys learn thera out of school, and only come into the school for the purpose of repeating them ? — Yes, always. 968. What is your opinion of that system? Do you think time was lost when you were there ? I think the lessons, generally speaking, were better prepared out of school than in school. My own inclination of opinion is that way. 969. Your boy has never been a home boarder or a half boarder, has he ? — Yes ; he was a half boarder for a short time. 970. You, I presume, live in London ; he might therefore have been a home boarder ? — Yes. 971. Do you prefer the other system ? — I prefer the half boarder system very much. I think that to a delicate boy the system of coming home at night is a very good system, because if anything is the matter with the boy you can remedy it ; but I must say, as far as my boy is concerned, he is extremely reluctant to come home, and wishes to stay at the school. 972. Do you think that boj'S generally like it ? — He did, most certainly. He had the strongest possible wish to remain at school, but there was no particular reason why he should, and he did not. 973. You think that boys of good health like to live at school ? — Yes. 974. Although their parents are in London ? — Yes. 975. If tlie parents are in the country, it is very often a question of convenience and economy that the boys should live in, because they very often go home on Saturday and Sunday ? — Yes ; and I have the very strongest opinion as to the advantage of a boy coming home on Saturday and Sunday. It extends further than their being able to see their parents, for boys have other friends and connexions. It tends to civilize a boy ; the parents can see whether there is any moral injury done to him. I think the coming home harmonizes and civilizes him extremely, because it blends the home system with the school system, which I consider to be a very great advantage. 976. Have you another boy ? — I have only one boy. 977. You h»ve not any reason to suppose that there is anything like bullying in the school ? — He was a very delicate boy, and I never had a complaint about bullying. 978. {Lord Clare?ido?i.) Not one ? — None at all. 979. {Mr. Thompson.) I asked a question with regard to the system of private studies. Does your experience of that system agree in the main with the description which Air. Mure gives of it ? — I believe it does in the main. 980. Mr. Mure said that he read in private study Sophocles, most of the principal plays of Euripides, and the whole of the Iliad and Odyssey twice over. Do you ever recollect a boy reading as much as that ? — No, I do not remember any boy reading so much as that ; but I remember a boy reading several books in the Hiad and in Virgil in private study, and a portion of Cicero, besides studying particular treatises of which, he was fond. I was about to say that the whole system of election into college in Westminster is a very peculiar one, and it is hard to understand, except by a person who either has had a boy there or has been there himself. From time immemorial the choice of the boys has been strictly by competition. In the senior class are four monitors, of whom the chief is the captain, and according to the statutes made in 3H 3 430 PUBLIC SCHOOLS COMMISSION :— MINUTES OF EVIDEKCK. ,,,., WKST- Queen Elizubetli's time, the election on the foniuLition MINSTEn. ■\vas only to take place by election from the body ol" the school 'The system has been combined with a singuhir n. PluJtlimore, j^gtitution, by which the senior boys become "helps," a ^'^^' term that is well known at Westminster ; that is to say, 23 June 18G2. one of the boys undertakes to assist another to get into college, and when the competition comes on, and the candidate submits questions to the boys, the help defends him, argues for him, and assists him generally to carry the election. There is no emolument at- tached to this ofHcc at all, except that the parents of the boys usually make a present to the help of books after the election. I think that the whole system has a most beneficial effect, and I should be very sorry indeed to see it abolished. 981. (Lord Clarendon.) It is the system of clial- lenges, I think, to which you are alluding ? — Yes ; I think the whole system of challenges is a very good one. It very often establishes a friendship between the help and the junior, which goes on through life. 982. {Lord Lyttelton.) Similar to the friendship which very often springs up between master and fag? Yes, with tliis addition, that it was the pride of the big boy that (he little boy should have distinguished himself in his challenge, because it reflected great credit upon him, and if liis boy got into college it was a great advantage to him, because it depended mainly on the exertions of his help. I daresay you are aware that the immediate care of the college is always placed under the second master, but if he understands the character of the boys, and can inspire those boys with confidence in him, and treat them as gentlemen and young men, (and, indeed, they always aiTived at a considerable age befon; they left, and were actually young men,) he could always depend upon them for the maintenance of discipline in the school. This system has always worked well, and I have often seen a very slight and feeble boy who was captain govern resolutely with the aid of the monitors very well. 0" the other hand, if they were bad and corrupt monitors, the master had great difficulty. Very much, of course, depended on the monitors and on the captain, but the whole discipline of the college is so much improved since my time, the comforts of the boys are so much attended to, and they are so divided in different apart- ments, that I think quite as much has been done as any person can reasonably desire in that respect. There is abiindant comfort for each boj', and the hardships which they experience, if any, are not more than they would experience at any school. In all other matters the school has undergone a great im- provement. I have heard remarks about the food now and then. Complaints have been made that the food is not always as good as one might expect it to be. 983. Is there any complaint, also, as to the quantity ? — There have been comjilaints both with regard to quantity and quality. 984. Have you heard any complaint about any recent retrenchment in the quantity of the food ? — I am not possessed of sufficient definite knowledge to be able to speak on that point. I have heard com- plaints occasionally that the boys do not get quite enough, and that the food is not of very good quality ; but no definite charge has been brought. On tlio whole, I think the comforts of the boys have been greatly improved. Their playgrounds are very greatly improved, and the one in Dean's Yard has been sur- rounded by iron rails. I can recollect that at one time there were continual battles between men who crossed that space and the boys. Indeed, there were certain boys with whom .it was always a point of honour to fight anybody who would not get out of the green when told to do so. All that has been altered now, and the ground is properly railed in, so that such conflicts cannot take place. 985. Do the boys very much use that place as a playground ? — Yes, it is used for football, principally in the winter time. When I was a boy, we used to play very much at a game which I am afraid is now gone out of fashion, and which was called hockey. 986. Vincent Square is a very good place for the boys to play in, is it not? — Yery good, indeed. If is 10 acres in extent, and is or was very much re- sorted to, especially in the summer time. I go still furtlur in my opinion about the college gardens than Mr. Blure does ; for I never can believe, if the matter was fully inquired into, it would be found otherwise than that the college gardens were originally designed for the use of the boys, and not for the use of the canons and the canons' wives and children. The oollen-e gardens were laid out at the same time that Burlington House was built, and by the same architect. There was a beautiful fa9ade looking towards the gardens, which was evidently built in order that the gardens should pertain, in some degree, to the college. It was always admitted during the days of the election, when the electors came from Clirist Church, Oxford, and Trinity College, Cam- bridge, that the gardens must be thrown open, and during those three days the boys always used to go into them. There is another reason that confirms me in the impression that it never was intended that the college gardens should be kept up simply for the use of the canons who happen to have houses abutting upon them, because the house of the Dean himself, and the house of one of the canons, looks on to the great playground where the football may be kicked against the windows half-a-dozen times every day. All the great games of the school used, in my time, to take place in that square, and there would be no greater inconvenience to the houses of the canons if the college gardens were thrown open, than there is at present to those houses which I have just been alluding to, the Dean's house, and the other ; while, on the other hand, it would be impossible to over- estimate the advantage which the throwing open of those gardens would be to the school. 987. They are never used at all, at present, I be- lieve ? — The boys occupy them for the three or four days that the election lasts, every year. I am very glad to take this opportunity of sayjng that I do not know any Dean to whom Westminster is more in- debted than to the present Dean. He has done a great deal, and I have no doubt will do a great deal more. I do not wish to speak disrespectfully of any canon. Lord John Thynne, during the time of the deplorable illness of Dr. Buckland, did a great deal ; but I conceive that if the college gardens were thrown open tOrmorrow, nobody would complain of the site of the school. I was at the school for some years, and I may say, in passing, that my ancestors for three generations, both on my father's side and my mother's side, were at Westminster school, and my only boy is there now ; so that you may readily imagine I have some knowledge of the school, and feel the deepest interest in its welfare. I believe a healthier place never could be found than where it is situated. We never had a fever there until Dean Buckland opened the drains. All you want is, a little more room for the boys. In my time they made much use of the cloisters, and I believe some mischief might have been done in them. Now they are altogether excluded from them. We used genen^lly tq play at football there ; and your Lordships recollect that Addison, in one of his most famous papers in the Spectator, says that he was disturbed in his meditations by the Westminster boys playing at football in the cloisters. 988. {Lord Clarendon.) You are aware of the reasons why the Dean and Chapter of Westminster would allow them to play there no longer ? — Yes ; but I think that when they were turned out of the cloisters, they certainly ought to have been given the college gardens, and if a strong pressure had been put on the authorities at that time, they might have obtained them as a matter of exchange. They had had the use of the cloisters for hundreds of years, and I believe originally they had the use of the college gardens. There is no doubt that the school fell oflf very much in Goodenough's time, or at all events very shortly after his time. I believe, and I am bound to say so, that the causes of that falling off were to be found in the extreme roughness and hard- PUBLIC SCHOOLS COJI.MISSION ; —MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 431 ncss of ihc life of tlio lower boys. We certainly had scrviees to 2)crt()rm whicli were excessively hard. Fa2:giiig was carried on with the greatest severity, and there was constant fighting taking place, besides which there was a general carelessness and ronghuess with respect to the accommodation, or rather the want of accorainodation, in the boarding houses as well as in tlie school. I remember hearing of the present Lord Mansfield's brother being very ill in one of the boarding houses, and his mother, Lady Mansfield, coming there to see him. There was only one chair in tlie room, upon which the poor siclv boy was re- clining, and a friend who was with him was sitting on the coal scuttle. Wheu Lady Mansfield entered the room, the lad who was sitting on the coal scuttle got up, and with perfectly natural politeness and good breeding, oifered it to her ladyship to sit down upon. Now that was a thing which I believe actually hap- pened in my time,and it gives an extremely goodnotion of the want of all kinds of accommodation in the boarding houses as well as in the college itself. I certainly think myself that the want of all the little conveniences of life and the falling oil' in obtaining the honours at the university led to the decline of the pchool. That decline was very rapid for a cerlain time ; it was, however, arrested, and since Dr. Goodenough's time it has not been in so prosperous a state as it is now. I am speaking in Dr. Scott's presence, and as an old Westminster, who has a boy actually at the school, I am proud and delighted to say, that I could not desire to have a boy better educated than he is with the education which is now given at West- minster school. 989. You are against the removal of the school to another situation, I presume ? — I was not so, until I was very much struck with the remonstrances of the old Westminsters on that subject. On the contrary, I thought the question as to the desirability of the removal of the site of the school was quite a matter which should be taken into consideration, the main point in my view being whether sufficient funds could be found to place it in another position ; but after the meeting which took place, the most rooted opposition to the proposition for removing the school was shown by the old Westminsters. 990. Shown by some of them, I suppose ? — Shown by the great majority of the persons who attended the meetings, and by others warmly attached to it, so that I was quite led to the conclusion that it would not work well for the school at all, and that to remove it would destroy all the old associations connected with it. Of course there were strong points urged the other way, but still certain privileges must necessarily be lost if it were removed. That privilege of visiting the Houses of Parliament while the debates are going on, for instance, is not a light one, and I remember Sir James Graham saying, in one of his most brilliant speeches, that his first desire to become an orator was stimulated by listening, when he was a Westminster boy, to the great speeches of Pitt and Fox ; and I myself remem- ber when I was a Westminster boy, hearing Mr. Canning's splendid speech on the affairs of Portugal, the effect of which I never forgot. 991. But did not the late Sir James Graham conclude the very speech to which you have been alluding by saying, " But I do not send my son there, " because Lady Graham objects to the situation of " the school " ? — I must confess that I believe after all it comes very much to a mothers' question. They seem to entertain a theory, and which is a mere theory after all, for the fact has been disproved and is being disproved daily, that London is a very unwholesome place to send a boy to. 992. {Mr. Vaughan.) The position of Westminster is known to be a healthy one, is it, as compared with other schools ? — Yes, especially as compared with Eton and Winchester. The fevers at Eton are most notorious, whereas such a thing as fever at West- minster school is hardly known. 993. {Lord Li/ttelton.) Is it not the fact that a great nany Westminster parents do not send their sons WEST- MINSTER. B. PhiUimore, Esq. there now ?— A great many do not ; but 1 think there is a turn in the tide beginning to manifest itself, and that parents are now sending them there more than they did before, or at all events than they have re- cently done. 9M. {Lord Clarendon.) You think a reaction has 23J«nel8C2 begun to set in ? — I think so. 995. {Lord Devon.) Is there not a very great change in the system of fagging as it existed in your time as compared with the present system ? — Yes ; 1 do not think there is any hardship to the boy in the present system of fagging at Westminster. 996. {Lord Clarendon.) Are there juniors enough to do the duties v.'hich they are called upon to per- form ? — Yes, I think so. I have never heard any complaints about the system of fagging of late, and I think I should have heard liad there been any. 997. {Lord I.yttelton.) Your boy gets fagging enough done tor him ? — Yes. There is one more sub- ject upon which I wish to express myself, and that is with respect to the annual college play. I think the advantages of that play have of late years been very much underrated. I think that advantage did not lie alone in the fact that it made the boys acquainted with the best specimens of Latin that exist, and that it teaches them to speak well, but it lay also in the training which the whole of the boys underwent in learning the parts, especially those who were to speak. Such boj'S as took part in the play soon got accustomed to speak with great fluency. Everybody knows that the Westminster play was always well sustained and acted ; and Lord Grenville once said that he never understood Terence until he saw the plays acted by the Westminster boys. It was not more the discipline of the boy's mind, which resulted from the study of tiie play, which was ad- vantageous to him, than the readiness in speaking and replying which it prod.uced. Dr. Ilawtrey, when Provost of Eton, often said, " I wish I could get " Eton boys to speak as well as the Westminster '• boys do ;" and 1 have always attributed that fluency and readiness to the discipline and training which the boys undergo in practising the speaking of the lines which they have to repeat at the play. In my time the boys used to study very hard indeed to be selected as actors in the play. 998. {Lord Clarendon.) How do they select the boys who are to be the actors? — The head and under masters select those they think are best fitted to act. It has been said that the acting of Terence's plays is likely to lead to immorality, inasmuch as the boys acted girls' parts. Of course it is quite impos- sible to say what might operate on a boy's mind who has been guilty of immoral conduct, and it has been said that the acting of Terence's plays was likely to incite to immorality. All that I can say in reply to that is, that in my time there was not the slightest in- dication of a tendency of that kind. Great jokes there were, certainly, but not any immorality, nor is there the slightest reason to suppose that an inclination to immorality was fostered in the mind of any one boy in consequence of his acting a woman's part. I men- tion the circumstance merely because an objection has been taken to the continuance of the play upon that ground. 999. {Lord Lyttelton.) You prefer the play to the system which prevails at Eton and Hiirrow of making speeches ? — Yes. As a mere matter of discipline for the boys I greatly prefer it. 1000. {Mr. Vaughan.) Let me ask you one ques- tion. Do you think that the average number of boys who listen and take part in the play understand it and become better Latin scholars in effect than the average of the boys who are educated in other public schools ? — I should say so. In my time Terence was read in the school for the elegance of the Latinity and the turn of the phrases. 1001. I am speaking of the average number of the boys. Do you think it acted on the average of the boys who sat and listened to it, so tliat they under- 3 114 432 PUBLIC SCHOOLS COMMLSSION : — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. WEST- MINSTER. if. Phillimore, £sq. Stood it sufficiently to make them better scliolars. For instance, do you think that the boys who were accustomed to hear or take part in the Westminster play had fewer fiiilures on account of their Latin at the Oxford examinations than tlie boys educated in other 23 June 1862. public schools had ? — My impression is decidedly no. — . I do not know that I have anything further to say connected with that other point respecting the college gardens, or the increased accommodation that might be given with regard to the school buildings. I cer- tainly agree with Mr. Mure that the result of opening a communication between (Jreat and Little Dean's Yard, tiirowing down one of the houses, and connecting The witness the two by an iron grating, would be a considerable improvement. 1002. (Lord Clarendon.) Would there be any gre.at difficulty in doing that, supposing there was the good will to do so ? — No difficulty at all ; and a space might be still left in which a boarding house could be built on the right-hand side as you go into Great Dean's Yard, which is now occupied by stables. 1003. Between Queen Ann's Bounty office and the entrance ? — Yes ; and I hope the school will, at no distant time, require more boarding houses. At all events I am sure that is a contingency which ought to be provided for. withdrew. See. C. B. ScoU. The Rev. C. B. Scott, B.D., further examined. 1004. {Lord Clarendon.) " Every boy is examined " by the Head and under master on his admission to " the school." Do you think, on the whole, that they come tolerably well prepared ? — No ; I think at least one-third of the boys who come are very deficient. 1005. Would you say that a boy from 11 to 12 years of age would come deficient ? — Yes, even older than that. Boys often at 12 years of age come to us sadly ignorant. 1006. Do they come from home generally, or from preparatory schools ? — Sometimes from the one and sometimes i'rom the other. The worst boys generally come from home, where they have been utterly neg- lected and allowed to grow up learning nothing. 1007. Are any of them so ignorant that you do not admit them ? — There are some that come whom I have advised their fathers to take away and to send them to a preparatory school first. Of course if we had a very much larger number of boys than we have we could affbrd to be more select, and to be very much stricter than we are now. 1008. {L,ord Lyttelton.) After admitting some you send them back again ? — If a boy come to ns so utterly ignorant that he would have to be placed with juniors half his own age, we tell the father to give him another year at a preparatoi-y school. In some cases the boys have been so very bad that we have sent them back, stating that there was no use in their parents sending thom at all. 1009. Do you consult your assistant masters on anything of importance with reference to the school ? . — Yes. 1010. You have no periodical meetings? — No. Whenever anything is worth talking about, we ar- range to have a meeting, and of course, if a man have not sufficient experience to guide him, his opinion is of less value. 1011. Does the responsibility rest wholly with yourself ? — Yes. 1012. {Lord Clarendon.) In one of your answers you make this remark : " In estimating the relative " value of diffin-ent subjects, I should say the classic " is reckoned as fully two- thirds of the whole ; the " remaining one-third being scriptural subjects, his- " tory and geography, both ancient and modern." Do you mean modern history and geography, or both ancient and modern ? — Both ancient and modern. 1013. With respect to English, it is no part of the English language or literature that is taught, except so far as it relates to historical and other questions on paper which may be considered English composition ? — No. 1014. You would not say that the English language is much studied in the Westminster school ? — No. 1015. Or literature ?— No. 1016. {Lord Lyttelton.) It is only in regard to history? — Yes, it is not the English language or literature that is taught so much as history. 1017. {Lord Clarendon.) Is it really modern his- tory. How far does it come down ? — We do not teach practically any modern history, except English history. 1018. Where does the modern history begin and end ? — Practically the history of England down to the time of the Georges. 1019. {Lord Lyttelton.) And that is part of the school work ? — Yes, 1020. You say the mathematical divisions of the school are generally coincident with the classical j and then you add lower down that the masters of the mathematical class need not be, nor are they it} fact, working at the same subject. How is that ? — Suppose a mathematical class to be at work, one boy might be at trigonometry, another might be at conic sections, another at something else ; all of fhem might, however, be referring to the master when they met with difficulties. So likewise in Euclid, a boy might be studying one theorem or problem, another boy another ; they also would refer to the master in cases of difficulty. I think it is a very proper system. 1021. {A Commissioner.) I should think the master would give himself a good deal of trouble by adopting it. It was certainly not the system with us ? — It is a simple way; it gives to each boy the opportunity of doing his best in what he is fit for. 1022. {Mr. Thompson.) I suppose he would learn mainly from the book, and not so much from the master ? — Mainly from the subject. 1023. You have some hope of improving the pre* sent system of teaching French, have you not ?-^ Yes. What I have done is that each division is subdivided, so that a class containing 25 or 26 boys is split into two classes, according to their respective attainments in French. 1024. I think you told us how many hours a week the French master was there ? — Eight ; two for each class. 1025. Does he give that time to each boy ? — Yes, to one-third of the school, except quite the little ones. 1026. {Lord Lyttelton.) Then there is time for preparation besides ? — Yes, the exercises are all done out of the school. 1027. That would add another hour, perhaps? — Yes. 1028. I understand the mathematical class is quite separated from the classical as to tlie distinctions to be obtained ? — Entirely. 1029. Promotion at school appears almost entirely to depend upon classics ? — Classics, scripture, history, and geography are massed together, but promotion is not given in mathematics, except in cases of emi- nence. 1030. It is sometimes a set off against inferiority in other subjects ? — Yes, but that is very r.are. 1031. {Mr. Vaughan.) You say that twice a year you require a boy to translate passages new to them at the time ? — Yes. 1032. In what parts of the school are you able to apply that system ? — It goes all the way down, each form having their own work to do. 1033. Practically do you find that they can do this work low down in the school ? — Sometimes they do it abominably, but they get gradually better. 1034. Have the boys of the mathematicil school, who do different kinds of work, an individual rank in the matheniatical school ? — No, it shows itself PtTBLIC SCHOOLS COSKNIISSION : — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 433 when they come to the end of the examination, at the end of tlio half year. 1035. Does it strike yon, then, there would bo any practical difficulty in making an entire separate classi- fication for the mathematical school as distinct from the classical school ? — We should want more teachers. In fact, except myself and the under master, and the mathematical master, there is no one who would undertake to teach mathematics, therefore I should not know what to do if I attempted to change the system. 1036. Then you have not the means of carrying it out?— No, I have not the means of carrying such a system out. 1037. Does that apply to French also? — French I can manage better. The mathematical master, fortunately for me, is a good French scholar, and he takes French four hours in the week. There are two divisions, and the upper one is sent to M. Dupont, our French master. The boys are always taught by the master of the form first. 1038. Are these divisions entirely independent of the school arrangements, or is there a subdivision of the form ? — There is a subdivision of the form. It would serve no good purpose to have boys of 17 and 12 years of age together. You could seldom class them together at all. If you subdivide to a certain extent, and within certain limits, it will effect all that can be desired. 1039. In what respect ; do you not think that a good French scholar for his age of 11, and a bad French scholar of 18, could not be in the same class ? — The younger would be, as a rule, in the lower class, and the elder in the upper. Exceptions are rare, but when they occur, we sometimes put a young boy in a high class. 1040. Would it not economise your powers if, instead of treating one or two individual boys exceptionally, you took all of diflerent ages in the same degree of proficiency, and taught them together, so that it would not be necessary for the French master to do the same work more than once ? — I do not mean that I send a single boy to the French master alone, but with the higher classes. I take him away from his own class, and send him with a higher and more advanced class. 1041. Belonging to a different part of the school ? —Yes. 1042. So that you do in fact break up the classes ? — Yes. When there is a manifest injustice in keep- ing one boy to a particular class, he placed in another. 1043. You do modify the system ? — Yes, when it is necessary. 1044. {Lord Clarendon.') You say that you have an annual examination in French, when books are given as prizes. What do you consider has been the result of those examinations. Have they been satisfactory. Have the boys shown as much pro- ficiency as you could have reasonably expected ? — No. 1045. To what do you attribute that ; I mean of course proficiency only with reference to the time devoted to the study ? — I think the answer I have given in No. 11 contains very much what I wanted to say on this point. The difficulty of the French class is greatly enhanced by the fact that the results of the examination do not affect the election. Now, however, I have got permission of the electors to submit tlie results of the French examination to them, and they will exercise their own discretion as to the amount of weight they will give to those results. 1046. I ask you, so far as you know of the results of the French teaching at Westminster, do boys after learning for three or four years go away able to read a common French book with fluency ? — Just a few, who have learnt French in childhood, or who have the prospect of going abroad. Some boys, who had this before them, have worked up their French and got a very fair amount of knowledge. Others also who have learnt it at home, in their childhood, get on 1. WEST- MINSTER. liev. C. B. Scott. well, but, as a general rule, I have been much disap- pointed with the result of the French teaching. 1047. Generally speaking, then, you would say that the French instruction has been a fiiilure at West- minster ? — I fear so. 1048. If a boy cannot read a common and easy 23 June 1863, French book it must be so ? — I have answered the question. 1049. It does not seem to prove, as has been said, that .an accurate knowledge of Latin affords great facility for the learning of French ? — The failure is duo to want of will, not want of opportunity of learning. There has also been some distrust of the marks. 1050. {Lord Lt/t(el(oH.) The prizes are given in consequence of the marks ? — Yes ; but this time wc are going to h.ave a regular examination, and the marks are not to be mixed up with the marks of the regular form work. 1051. And you say that only a few boys are able to read a French author after having been educated in French that time for two hours a week ? — Some of them only. 1052. {Mr. Thomp.1071.') If French is part of the curriculum, I conclude it is taught by a gentleman and a scholar ? — M. Dupont is that. 1053. If an Englishman could be found to teach French, who was a gentleman and a scholar, and one of the regular masters of the school, you think there would be no difficulty ? — No ; it would be much more desirable. To the small extent to which wo have already tried it, some of the junior classes being taken by one of the other masters, it has worked more efficiently, and I have no doubt whatever it is infinitely easier for one of the ordinary masters of the school, even if he be not an accomplished French scholar, to manage the boys. 1054. {Lord Clarendon.) I suppose it is only the little ones who can bo taught French effectually by such a person. Does he not speak good English? — He s]ieaks grammatically, but with a foreign accent. 1055. Have you any boys in the school who begin the rudiments of the Latin grammar ? — No, not any who begin the rudiments of the Latin grammar. Sometimes, if they do not wish to learn Greek, they learn French instead. 1056. {Lord L^yttelton.) Have they prizes enough to stimulate them in mathematics ? — Yes. 1057. You are satisfied with the mathematical instruction ? — Tolerably satisfied. 1058. What is the amount of time you give to the study of mathematics ? — Four hours in the week and five in my own form. 1059. You say the progress in mathematics is not very different to the progress in Greek and Latin. Are 3'ou satisfied of that ? — Yes. I do not think that the jirogress of any of the boys is all that we might wish it to be. 1060. As a training for the mind, do you consider that the study of mathematics should be put upon a par with the study of Greek and Latin ? — No, I do not think that it should ; not if they were taken alone certainly. 1061. If Greek and Latin were taken alone they would be superior ? — I think they would be better than mathematics, taken alone. 1062. You said just now it is only in cases where the boys do remarkably well in mathematics that their places are materially affected ? — A remove is given for form work, but when I find a boy who has done remarkably well in mathematics, I put him up. Last year there was a boy whom I removed to the sixth form. He had not earned his remove, but he had shown mathematical ability sufficient to justify pro- motion. 1063. You said mathematics did not tell in the progress of the school ? — Some change in that respect is going to be made. We have arranged to have a little examination, which we are going to throw into the form work ; it would not make any material diffijrence in the position of the boys, but it is much 31 434 PUBLIC SCHOOLS COMMISSION : — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. WEST- MINSTER, Rev. C. B. Scott. more easy to get the work done when they have an idea it would be tangibly paid for. 1064. {Lord Lyttelton.) You have not yet actually introduced the system to which you have alluded ? — Yes ; it is now begun. 23 June 1862. 1063. {Mr. Vaughan.) In the final examination for studentships, &c., you say that mathematics have a considerable value. What value do you give to them proportionately ?— About one-third. 1066. That is a very large proportion, is it not ? — I do not mean one-third of the whole, but one- third in value compared with the classics ; that is to say, one-fourth of the whole. 1067. {Lord Lyttelton.) Do they affect the elections to college ? — Yes. 1068. But they do not enter into consideration in the old system of challenges ?— No ; the challenge did not include them. 1069. Has there been any question of introducing it into the elections ?— Not till the last time, when I begged the electors to let me lay the French exami- nation before them, and they agreed that I should do so. 1070. {Mr. Thompson.) It will lie with them to attach what weight they please to it ? — Yes. 1071. {Lord Devon.) Practically, is there any weight attached to it at the present time ? — There never has been. 1072. {Mr. Vaughan.) Do you find, as we have had reason to find in some other places, that there is any dislike for the French language ?— The boys think it is useless generally. Silly as such a notion is, it is very difficult to fight against the impression, and practically their view is very much confirmed by the fact that French is not taken into account in the elections. 1073. You have spoken of teaching French by means of classical m.asters in your written evidence. Do you ever think seriously in respect to teaching French of requiring it as a qualification for your classical masters, and then teaching it through them ? —No. 1074. {Mr. Thompson.) If you did it would limit your choice of masters ? — Yes ; and it is quite limited enough at present. 1075. {Lord Clarendon.) You say, "the Head " Master examines ordinarily once a month." Is that examination severe ; that is to say, is it a searching one ? — I do as much as I can. The form bring up to me what they have done ; for instance, supposing they have been doing Xenophon, they bring their work up to me, and I give marks for it, and if I find gross ignorance or neglect, I give an imposition. 1076. Is that suillcient to make your supervision felt ? — Yes ; my assistants seem to think it is adequate. I give all the time I can to it. "When I am not actually at work on my own form, I always take some other. 1077. In addition to that you say, " There are also " some examinations in which the work is not only " looked over by the Head Master, but is submitted " to some independent gentleman." Is the examiner appointed by you ? — No ; that is with respect to the Latin and Greek composition for the prizes, such as Greek phrases and Latin hexameters. I look over them and pick out half-a-dozen of the best, and then Mr. Mure or Dr. Wordsworth have kindly acted as judges for me. 1078. Is that the way in which superiority is determined ? — Yes ; the boys prefer to have a stranger for that purpose, and it relieves me from any invi- diousness with respect to the distribution of the prizes. 1079. " Three junior studentships of Christ Church, " Oxford, tenable for seven years." These, you say, " are augmented by certain benefactions ; the total " annual value is at present about 100/., and it is to " rise to 120/. when tlio new system is in full opera- " tion." What does that mean ?— The new student- ships at Christ Church when the old studentships shall have dropped. 1080. (Lyord Devon.) In the elections is it neces- sary that the number should consist exactly of 10 ? —No. 1081. Sometimes there may be eight or nine ? — There is hardly ever the exact number. The number varies a good deal. There are 40 collegers altogether, supposing the college to be full (which it has been of late), and consequently if there are more than 10 one year, there may be less another. Just at the present moment the vacancies are 12 for the next election ; next year there may be 10 or 11. 1082. It partly depends upon the fact of some of the boys staying over ? — No, staying over is at an end ; but it depends on the vacancies that occur. Boys may leave, and you have to supply the va- cancies. 1083. {Lord Lyttelton.) With regard to that new benefaction which has just fallen in of 600/. a year from the gift of Bishop Carey, which is to be dis- tributed by the Dean and Canons of Christ Church at their annual audit among the Westminster students ; is it to be distributed among those who are elected from the school ? — Yes. 1084. At Oxford ?— Yes. 1085. Is that given on examination ? — It rests with Christ Church. They have not given it yet. I do not believe it will be given on examination. 1086. On selection?— Yes. 1087. You consider the exhibitions and rewards for the present number of the boys at school are ample in number ? — Yes. 1088. {Mr. Vaughan.) Are the open exhibitions open to the whole school except such of the Queen's scholars as are elected to Christ Church studentships. I understand they are open to the other Queen's scholars as well as to the town boys ? — Yes. The boys elected to Christ Church studentships arc ex- cluded, because they are so valuable in themselves that it would be unreasonable to allow them to be added to. 1089. But with respect to the exhibitioners for Trinity College, they are admitted ? — Yes, they may compete, because those exhibitions to Trinity College are only worth about 40/. a year, while the student- ships at Christ Church are valued at 120/., besides what they may get from the Carey fund. 1090. bo you consider you have enough induce- . ments in the exhibitions now open to the town boys to apply a proper stimulus to that part of the school ? — I sliould like to speak very decidedly on that point. If the collegers were better provided for, it would be of the utmost value to the school if the whole of the competitions could be thrown open, but in order to keep the college up, you must make it more desirable than it is at present. I have no doubt that if it were not for tlie prizes, the college would not be filled now. 1091. Docs it occur to you that you have boys who are not upon the foundation, who would bo able to take away some of the studentships if in the earlier part of their career they had got on to the foundation ? — Sometimes we have a boy whose father would rather that he did not go upon the foundation. 1092. Are exhibitions open to the whole school given away in competition in the same examination under which the studentships are awarded ? — Yes. 1093. At that examination the Queen's scholars are pitted against the town boys ? — Yes. 1094. Does it ever happen that when the examiners give in their report of the examination, the boys not on the foundation are presented to you for higher places than boys who are on the foundation ? — Hitherto I have always had Queen's scholars at the head of the examination, but sometimes I had certain boys, — town boys, — who have stood very high for selection. A town boy last time stood next to the three who went to Christ Church. Those who went to Trinity as exhi!)itioners were below him. 1095. {Mr. Thompson.) 1 see the first-form boy is WJBLIC SCHOOLS COMMISSION :— MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 43c Only fifth in the school ? — You must not build on that ; that is conventional. 1096. Do I understand j-ou that all the examina- tions for the prizes in the school are for the regular work of the school, and not for private reading ? — The only private reading for election is six books of Homer and Virgil. 1097. Are all the passages from classical authors in the work of the school limited to those books ? — They have their unseen pieces, as they ai-e called, sometimes. 109S. Is that advantageous ? — I think it would be advantageous to be able to have an additional paper of critical questions in the sixth. 1099. I understand you have applied this principle to the lower forms of the school ? — Yes. 1100. Is there not rather an a fortiori reason for applying it to the higher boys in the school ? — If they are working for the final examination they arc fully employed already. 1 101. Would you not like to have an independent result that would enable j'ou to test matters, which the former could not so well test ? — I think that something of that kind would be very advantageous. 1102. (Lord Lijttelton.) What is the sixth form examination. Is it for the purpose of entering it ? — No ; that means for the election. The whole form is examined then. 1 103. Should you see auy advantage in introducing any translation of passages of Greek and Latin, now to the boys, into the schoolwork ? — I think it very advantageous to the students. The examination already is a long one ; that is the chief thing which has influenced me. There is a great deal to be done. At the very least there are two Latin authors, two Greek authors, theology, composition, history, and all the mathematics besides. 1104. You say j'ou doubt whether the college would be filled without the stimulus of the studentships. The average expense of the boys in the college is only one-third of that of the boys who are not in college. Is not that so ? — About one -half, taking into consideration the incidental expenses. 1105. Such as could not be incurred in the case of collegers ? — Yes. 1106. {Lord Clarendon.) Dr. Liddell abolished the system of private tuition that formerly existed, and you to a certain extent have restored it, but I apprehend that is only in exceptional cases, because I understand you are rather of opinion with Dr. Lid- dell, that it is not an advantageous system ? — Not for us here. 1107. The exceptional cases .are only those where you think the boy could not get on without the assist- ance of a tutor ? — That is merely because I am here. If I were elsewhere, I should undoubtedly have private tuition ; but here we have to consider that the system must be one that will enable the home boarders to be efficiently taught, and you cannot teach them on a system in which large private tuition is a regular supplement. 1108. Why not? — Because they are away in the evening. 1109. {Mr. Thompson.) That system entirely pre- vents your getting hold of the metropolitan scholars :' — Yes ; but I do feel the want of what is mentioned in this answer, th.at " private tuition stimulates an " honourable emulation between the tutors them- " selves, .and produces an influence for good." 1110. {Mr. Vaughan.) When you are speaking of the advantages of private tuition, do you mean that the work which should be done by private tutors is form work help ? — I think form work help by private tutors is usually time wasted. 1111. {Lord LytteJton.) From what you say here, you would divide the relations between the private tutor and his pupils into two heads, one of which is, that he is to assist the scholar in his intellectual pro- gress, and the other that he is to take general charge of his discipline and moral conduct. Now, with re- gard to the boarders at present, do they not look up to the master of the boarding house for advice, and WEST- do not the parents look to him to take charge of the MINSTER. boys, both in respect to their general character and moral conduct ? — Yes, but the boarding house master ^"'■ cannot see so much of the hoys in private as the private ^' ^j^""- tutor does at Eton, because he has a longer time in 2S June 186' school, and less time out of it. 1112. But if there were any considerable moral defect, would the parent speak to the tutor about it, or to the bearding house master ? — If he would have spoken to the private tutor before, he would speak to the boarding house master now. 1113. He is the private tutor? — If the parent spoke at all about it, he would probably speak to the boarding house master. 1114. Do the boarding house masters send any report home of the state of the boys ? — Yes ; and it is rather a question discussed among them whether we should have a system of monthly reports. I always write about the boj's in my own form, and •the other masters write about those in theirs. 1115. That would of course refer to their conduct in school time. The boarding house master, I pre- sume, writes with respect to their conduct fhei'C ? — . Yes, and the under master about those in college. 1116. {Lord Clarendon.) At Harrow the montlil}' report is with reference to the general conduct and progress of the boys. Each master furnishes a report to the Head Master or Tutor, who sends it home to their parents ? — Yes. 1117. {Lord Lyttclton.) In cases of difficulty would the boy consult the master of the boarding house ? — Most boys would. 1118. {Mr. J'aiifjJian.) From what point of view is it necessary to place the elder boys on a form of which they cannot do the work, because I under- stand that to produce, under the Westminster system, a necessity for private tulors ? — I thiuk a great dunce in a low form is a monstrous evil. 1119. {T^ord Li/tfelton.) Lender the present tuition system, as you have restored it, one master t ikes all the private pupils ? — Yes ; but just now there are very few private pupils. 1120. I suppose you consider that it is an advan- tage that it should all be done by one master ? — There is no option about the matter, because the boarding master's time is so fully occupied already. 1121. With the duties of the boarding house ? — Yes. Mr. Marshall will explain that to the Com- mittee. He sits in the evening for an hour in the hall with the boys. 1122. {Lord Clarendo?i.) You say that "owing to " our narrow limits of sp.ace and small numbers, it " is very difficult to deal with exceptional cases of " special bias or endowment," where they may exist, but you add that in the case of boj'S intended for tha army or navy, you have sometimes allowed Euclid or algebra to be done instead of Greek, where there seemed little prospect that enough Greek would over be learnt to be of any service. Has that been carried to any extent ? — Do you mean are there many boys to whom the system is applied ? 1123. Yes? — Not any very large number ; per- haps half a dozen or nine in the school ; but now we have another master added, there may very likely be more. 1124. Do you make any application to the boys' parents, or do you act upon your own judgment ? — It is generally in consequence of an application from the boys' parents. 1125. You do not think it is sometimes made an excuse for idleness and shirking other work ? — That is the danger of the system. It does nor work very efficiently ; but you get more work out of a boy than if you were attempting to make him do Greek when he had made up his mind not to do it. 1126. But there must be a great many boys who never learn Greek enough to be of service to them, and who are not going into the army. Do you do anything to make their studies profitable ? — It is difficult to conduct a school unless the boys are desi- 3 12 436 PUBLIC SCHOOLS COIIMISSION: — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. WEST- IIINSTER. lien. C. B. Scoit. 23 Junel8G2. rous of achieving a certain amount of success. For insUnce, there are a number of boys learning Greek, who aim at becoming something of Greek scholars, but it is of no use attempting to prepare lessons for those who set their faces completely against it. 1127. Are there many who do that? — If a boy wants something else, and considers that the learning of Greek is merely wasting his time, he tells his parents so, and it is no good whatever keeping him to Greek. In fact it is move advantageous to all parties that he should not continue it. 1128. {Lord Lyttel ton.) Then do they leave off Greek entirely ? — Yes, and something is given as a substitute. 1129. {Lord Clarendon.) And would they have Latin ? — Yes, always. 1130. Would that enable a boy so allowed to leave off Greek, and possibly Latin to a certain extent, to be better prepared to undergo an examination for the army ? — Better prepared, probably, than he would otherwise be. 1131. {Mr. Thompson.) You say that the boys who go into the army and navy are not the elite of the school ? — No. 1132. {Lo7-d LyiteUon.) As unwilling learners of Greek, would they gain the same benefit ? — I do not think they would gain much. 1133. {Mr. Vanghan.) Do you think that the boys who are idle in Greek and Latin, having obtained a moderate knowledge of it, would be equally idle in school work, supposing there was a greater latitude in the subjects of instruction in the school? — Yes, I do. 1134. {Lord Clarendon.) You say that the Com- mittee who superintend the examination, that is the military examination, %vTote last year to you, and no doubt to other Head Masters also, regarding the extent to which boys wore withdrawn from the pub- lic schools to prepare for those examinations, and asking whether some means could not be devised by which the candidates could be retained at the schools themselves. Was that because they had boys sent to them with a very superdciai education, and who, although they might have been crammed for the examination, could not be relied upon afterwards ? — The letter I received did not explain altogether what kind of dissatisfaction it was, but I rather inferred, from the tone in which it was written, that they con- sidered the training and character of the boys whom they received to be defective, and that the training of public schools would be advantageous to them. They thought there had been a system of cramming by which they had not learnt anything well, and that it had not left permanent results. I do not mean that the system is in itself a bad one, but the endeavour to arrive in a moment at attainments that ought to be the result of a study of two or three y;;ars is attended with bad effects. 1135. Has there been any attempt on 3our part to place yourself in communication with that committee of examiners in order to understand exactly what their requirements were, and to see how far they could be met at Westminster, so that a boy might be fully and honestly prepared at school to comjiete in the military examinations ? — No, I have not, pecause I do not think we have had a sufficient number of candidates to render such a step necessary. 1136. {Mr. Thompson.) The best men, I suppose, want to go to Oxford and Cambridge ? — Yes. Besides I think that, as fi\r as we are concerned, the state- ment you will find in the written answer is most true, namely, " That candidates for the army are usually amongst the most idle boys at a public school, and the spirit of indolence is confirmeortunity for carrying out the iiaprovenicJit, which may never recur agtiin. 1156. Does the door belong to 3'our house? — No, It is di«-ided into two bays, and one of tliem is the entrance to my house, but the part above is not my house. 1157. {Mr. Vaughoii.) Do any of the boys learn instrumental music in the school ? — I have had boys once or twice who learnt instrumental music. 1158. What was the instrument? — The piano. One of them learnt the violin. 1159. Do you know the details of the teaching of music in the school enough to say whether they learn it scientifically ?^I am sorry to say that I do not. Mr. Turle, the abbey organist, is our teacher, and when a sufficient number of boys can be got to form a class, he teaches them. The musical leaching is mainly singing. It is left in his hands, and the boys seem to be quite satisfied. 1160. Are these extras learnt chiefly by the boys who have little to pay, — namely, the Queen's scholars, who have nothing to pay for the other part of their education, or is it the town boys principally who learn ? — They have a good deal to pay, but not so much, of course, as the other boys. 1161. You do not find the Queen's scholars learn very mueh more than the other boj's in consequence of their not having so much to jiay ? — There is no great distinction between them. If a boy has a taste for drawing, he usually joins the drawing class. 1 162. ( Lord Devon.) Is that held on half holidays ? — It is held on Wednesdays, and two or three other evenings. 1163. What is the fee? — About a guinea three times a year. 1164. {Lord Clarendon.) You say the under master is specially charged with the moral and spiritual superintendence of the Queen's scholars. Will you state what means he takes to promote good conduct and morality. In the answer of Mr. Ingram, the under master, who has the special charge of the college, I see nothing concerning religious instruction. He attends to hear them saj' grace in hall, and to observe their conduct when they are in college, but is religious instruction formally given, even on Sundays ? — There is preparation for the Holy Com- munion from time to time, and the scriptural work of the school ; there is very little on the Sunday, from the fact that nearly all the boys are absent on that da}', so that it is scarcely possible for him to do anything. 1165. {Lord Lytlelton.) Yon mean that the col- legers get the ordinary religious work of the ."chool to do ?— Yes. 1166. {Lord Devon.) Perhaps Mr. Scott will tell us what is the religious work. He has the general charge of the moral and spiritual superintendence of the college ? — Yes. 1167. {Lord Clarendon.) Does Mr. Ingram do with respect to the Queen's scholars the same as your senior assistant does, go round the room and encour- age the boys to private prayer ? — I have no doubt he will do as much as Mr. Marshall as soon as he has felt his way. 1168. Have the boys hitherto been left entirely to themselves with respect to their religious training in college ? — Besides what I have already mentioned, his predecessor used to see a good deal of the boys when they were in the sick house. 1169. {L^ord Lyttelton.) Mr. Ingram has only recently come here ? — Only since last autumn. 1170. Then with respect to the abbey service. The boys attend the abbey, but there is now a special service for them, is there not ? — Yes, on Saints' day mornings. There is one to-morrow, for example. 1171. {Lord Clarendon.) On these occasionB is it the practice to address sermons to the boys particu- larly ? — Yes ; I preach to the boys, and there is hardly anybody else there. 1172. That, I suppose, is because it is so early in the mornin,i ? — There are a small number of atten- dants at the early service, but those who do attend seldom remain for the sermon. 1173. You say that in the sixth form on Monday, the subject is generally one of St. Paul's Epistles, and afterwards a portion of the Acts in Greek, the Epistle always being said by heart. At the same time you add, some other book is carried on ; Butler's Analogy, for instance. Is not Butler's Analogy rather a liard book ? — It is only used with my own form. 1 174. You do not find it a hard book ? — I have not been dissatisfied with it to work from. 1175. Is it a book the use of which you have intro- duced into the upper form, or has the sixth form always been in the habit of using it ? — I introduced it. We take only the first section one year, and next year we take the second part. 1176. {f^ord L.ijlldton.) With regard to the atten- dance at the Holy Communion, the regulations are a little different irom what we have generally found in other schools. You say that four times a year the under master specially prepares all who have been confirmed for the reception of the Holy Communion, and that at such times all the Queen's scholars are expected to communicate. Is that a rule which is en- forced. Is it obligatory upon them to do so ? — Yes. 1177. Is it at your discretion either to enforce or to alter that system ? — It is not at my discretion. It would be at the Dean's discretion to do so, and no doubt if I expressed a strong opinion upon it, he might do so. I have taken the responsibility to a certain extent, and have never pressed the matter upon him, because I thought I was bound not to pro- pose a change, unless I could show that the system I wished to substitute would practically work, and I think that the result of an alteration of the old rule making it optional whether the Queen's scholars should attend the communion or not, would be, that they would not attend at all. The confinement on Sundays is much disliked, and if the present system were altered so as to make it optional, we should have applications from parents that the boj's might attend the communion at home, so that some would keep away, and others would be accused of hypocrisy if they remained here, and eventually we should have none at all. 1 1 78. Does it not seem essential that the attendance at that observance should be left free to those who are confirmed ? — If the point were raised anywhere but where we are, I should not think there was the smallest question about it, that it ought to be left free ; but I have shrunk from proposing any alteration in the old system here. 1179. Is that one of the points with which you would not like to deal without the Dean's sanction ? — I do not conceive that I could deal with that ques- tion without the Dean's sanction. 1180. {Lord Devon.) Is there any question with respect to the boys declining to attend ? — No ; boys certainly have attended, who appeared afterwards to have been unfit, but you cannot prevent this, and there may be hypocrisy under any system. 1181. {3Ir. Thompson.) 1 think it is hardly fair to call boys who are forced to attend, hypocrites ? — No, I do not mean that. I meant merely that in masiug it optional, if some of them attended, they might be taunted with this. 1182. {Lord Clarendon.) With regard to the pun- ishments, I observe that the punishments in use are the rod, impositions, confinement to the Dean's Yard, and refusal of leave. The rod, I see is applied to the back of the hand, which is held out. Is it used otherwise ? — Yes ; grave offences are punished, if necessar}', by flogging. 1183. Has the system of flogging diminished very much lately ? — Yes, very much. In former days flogging was very much resorted to, but now it is very rare ; there being only one or two cases in half a year. 1184. You think the average would be four or five 313 WEST- MINSTEK. Rev. C. B. Scotf. 23 June 1862. 438 PUBLIC SCHOOLS COMMISSION : — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. \V£ST- licv. C. Ji. Scott. 23 June 1862. cases in a twelvemonth ? — Yes ; sometimes there is no case in tlic lialf year, but that is rare. 1185. Are the impositions set to be written or learnt by heart ? — Sometimes the one, sometimes the other. I found that a certain number of boys were in the habit of avoiding their work, and getting lines to write instead. Thus a particular lesson might be systematically evaded. Now we always endeavour to insist on the task itself being done. 1 186. Are any of the impositions learnt by heart ?--~ Yes ; where a boy will learn by heart you can set him an imposition aud tell him to learn it ; but if a boy sets himself against it, and is determined not to do so, you cannot compel him, because you cannot go on for ever insisting upon his learning what he never says. 1187. You would prefer, if j-ou could, giving him an imposition to learn by heart rather than giving him it to write ? — Yes ; we give lines as little as we can. Wo pi-efer to give impositions to be learnt by heart if a boy has not said his repetition. Sometimes we set him down to make a literal translation, to do an exorcise, or what are called derivations at Eton. 1188. (Lord Lyttelton.) Do you attend to the hand- writing ? — Yes ; we allow fewer lines, if the writing- is good. (Lord ClarendonS) You give fewer lines ? — ■ 1189. Yes. 1190. practice You think that giving them too much is a bad You may remember, probably, what they do at Harrow ? — Yes, they set very long impositions at Harrow. 1191. {Lord Devon.) Does the flogging take place in a room at the back of the school ? — Yes. 1192. Is it in the presence of the master? — Yes, the master punishes, and there is always one boy there besides the culprit. 1193. (Lord Li/ttelfan.) The pra^jx^tor, I suppose ? — I do not mean the monitor. 1194. {L^ord Clarendon.) As a spectator? — Lord Devon can tell you. 1195. {3L: Vauf/han.) With regard to the punish- ment on the hand, are the boys formally sent up to be punished on the hand ? — What happens is this — Supposing a boy misconducts himself, the assistant master sends for the monitor, and desires him to take up the culprit to mo in school for punishment ; the boy is then directed to hold out his hand, aud receives the punishment as before described. 1196. How many blows are given ? — Four or five. 1197. That is a punishment of course below the ordinary flogging ? — Yes, it is not a severe punish- ment, especially when the boys get hardened. They ■would much rather have it than imposition. 1198. Is that punishment traditionary in the school ? — Yes. 1199. (Lord Devon.) The other masters, I suppose, have the same power, if it is necessary, to punish the little boys ? — Only tlie under master. 1200. (il/r. Vaughan.) Only the four head boys on the foundation are monitors ? — That is all. 1201. Are they sufficient in number to attend to the order and discipline of the school ? — Yes. 1202. You rely upon them ? — Yes, very con- siderably. 1203. The head town boy has also an authority over the town boys, but the monitors on the founda- tion have authority over the whole school, boarders as well as others ? — Yes, a certain authority ; but there is jealousy about this. 1204. Their authority clashes with the authority of the head town boy ?— Yes, as to the town boys it might do go. 1205. The town boys would resist the monitor, as you think ? — It would depend upon what it was. With respect to any great breach of discipline the monitor, before he punished, would make a communi- cation to the head town boy, but he would have authority to punish. 1206. In what way ?— That point needs watching, fhe old Westminster custom was, that nothing but the fist should be used, whereas if a big boy uses his fist unmercifully, he would inflict a far greater amount of punishment than by striking with a light cane, for example. On the other hand, I have had to lay down a rule that no cricket stump, or racket, or anything of that sort shall be used. 1207. What are limitations as to offences under the power of the monitors ? — Grave cases, such as indecency or dishonesty, are reported to me. 1208. Is it the head boy alone who has a similar authority over the town boys ? — No ; all the sixth form town boys have authority, but the head town boy has the chief responsibility. What makes the difference between them and the monitors is, that monitors are formall}' appointed in scliool. 1209. Is there any form of words for the occasion ? —There is a regular form of words used. 1210. Would the authority of the town boy moni- tors be submitted to and acknowledged by the Queen's scholars ? — Not at all ; noi- are they called monitors. 1211. {Lord Devon.) Does the authority of the monitors extend to prevent such school offences as going out of boundsj and do you except the monitors with respect to going out of bounds ? — No. 1212. Would they even report such a matter as that ? — They do not. 1213. {Mr. Vaughan.) What is the difference between what you call a sort of authority and responsibility which belongs to the sixth form town boys and the actual power of the monitors ? — The head town boy, for instance, in a house would have a monitorial authority in that house, with reference to offences committed within the walls. 1214. The same kind of authority as the monitors have ? — Yes, the sanse kind of authority. 1215. Is it one of the duties of the monitors to keep station, as it is called ? — Yes, the head town boy has the duty of keeping station for the town boys. 1216. Is that to compel them to be in the field at play or to prevent them being in improper places ? — It is not that the monitors should be there all the time ; but they are to see if the boys are there or not, or if they are in improper places. 1217. It is not incumbent on the boys to be at play as well as on the ground ? — It is the duty of a boy to be at play, but the head boys cannot always enforce this thoroughly. 1218. Was it to provide fags for the games which the other boys play that that system was adopted ? — No ; it is simply his diity to be on the playground. 1219. If a boy is in his study would that be an excuse for his not going to play ? — No excuse what- ever, unless he got leave ; but he probably would have got leave. 1220. Can the monitors set impositions? — They never do that. 1221. {Lord Clarendon.) The four head boys on the foundation, called the captain and monitors, are formally intrusted with authority by the Head Master in presence of the school. They are specially charged with the maintenance of discipline generally, and in respect of Queen's scholars particularly. You also observe that the head boys are bound to see that the rules and discipline are observed, and that the boys do not absent themselves from the playground unless leave is given, and that the captain and monitors have a recognized and limited power of puni.shing breaches of discipline or offences, such as falsehood or bullying in college and generally ; prac- tically do they really set themselves to prevent that "i— Yes, I think they do when they see it. 1222. Is there much bullying now at Westminster ? — I hope not. I do not think there is. The form in which bullying is most vexatious and mischievous is when it makes its appearance in deterring young boys from doing their best in form. 1223. They take away their books, I suppose ? — Yes ; very often the elder boys themselves do not know it. It is a class matter, and of course there is a great deal of jealousy, because it is obvious that the PUBLIC SCHOOLS COILMISSION : — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 439 dunces would gain by deterring tlie others from doing their work. 1224. {Mr. Vaufffian.) Is that one of your reasons for promoting all boys after a time ? — Yes, in the hope of preventing it. I think it cheeks it. 1225. Is it the custom for any of the monitors to bo walking the school at the time the other boys are preparing their lessons ? — No, because they prepare their lessons in school hours, and the masters are there. 1226. And is that a thing which the Masters cannot prevent, namely, the interference of the bigger boys when the juniors are learning their lessons? — Boys may be discouraged, and jjrevented saying what they have learnt, and know. 1227. Do you think that that is much more coui- mou than you could desire ? — I cannot give much more than a guess when it takes place. 1228. Does it take place even in tlie highest forms ? — I do not think it does in my own form. 1229. But nearly up to that ? — Sometimes perhaps ; but chietly lower down. 1230. {Lord Clarendon.) Do you think that there ought to be only a few monitors, in order to diminish the chance of any abuse of ]iower ? — Yes, I do. I have heard Dr. Temple describe his system at Rugby, which seems to me to work well ; but I do not see how we could graft it on ours. 1231. Why not ? — Because the boys are so wedded to old usages. 1232. {Lord Devon.) In what does the difference consist? — At Rugby a boy has a right to appeal from one monitor's authority to that of the whole body, and if not satisfied with their decision, to appeal to the Head Master. I very much doubt, however, if the boys would con.sent to any appeal to me if they thought it was a case which they could govern with their own authority. 1233. Are you on such a footing with your monitors that you could depend on them to assist you to prevent breaches of school discipline, or is it merely for the purpose of enforcing the observance of their own regulations that they exercise the authority they possess in the school ? — It depends very much on what kind of monitors we have. If there is a good set of monitors they will work with the master very willingly in what they consider is fairly punishable ; but there are other things which the master might consider properly punishable which they would not. Of course for falsehood, indecency, bullying, and the like, they would punish, and do so. 1234. {Mr. Thompson.) I suppose that anything that offended their moral sense they would punish ? — Yes; I need not say that they would do it, for 1 know that they have done it in such cases. 1235. {Mr. Vaiighan.) Would yon explain how the limitation of the number of the monitors prevents their using their authority in a moment of irritation or to gratify pique ? — Perhaps I ought to explain that more fully. I meant that there was not so much chance of the monitor himself being ag- grieved. It is generally some other sixth form boy, or a senior against whom an offence is committed ; and he ought not to have power to punish the offence while his blood is hot. 1236. You say that the general exercise of the power of those few has been attended with good, but that the power is principally exercised with respect to any broach of their own regulations ? — Yes. 1237. [Lord Devon.) With respect to a breach of their own regulations is there any interval of time between the commission of the offence and (he in- fliction of the punishment by the monitor ? — No. 1238. i'ou say, I think, that there are some schools in which such a rule exists ? — Yes, and it is a very excellent thing, because I do not consider it advantageous that punishment should follow immedi- ately on the offence. 1239. {Mr. Vaughan.) Permit mo to ask is the monitorial power generally exercised on the complaint of some one boy other than the monitor ? — Yes ; I WEST- MINSTER. Rev. C.B.Scot. have known cases of falsehood, and bullying, and in- decency punished, in none of which cases was the monitor who punished the offences a sufferer by them. 1240. {Lord Clarendon.) It is only the Queen's scholars at the second or third election who have the 23 June ISCa. right to fag ?— No ; the seniors of the third election. The right of fagging is limited to such Queen's scholars, and to such of the town boys as may be in the sixth form or the remove, but if it should happen that a junior Queen's scholar is so high that does not give him the right of fagging. J 24 1 . Why ? — Because he is so young. 1242. He must be of a certain age or size. His mere position on the form does not of itself give that right? — No; and for this reason — it sometimes ha|)pens that a clever boy will get up there in con- setjucnce of his attainments, while still too young to be tit to be intrusted with authority. 1243. He would not be fiigged himself, I suppose ? — Any junior of the college would be liable to be fagged, except the captain of his election. There is no exemption from fagging, generally speaking. 1244. Do the junior Queen's scholars fag for the town boys under any circumstances ? — No; they havo quite enough to do to fag for the seniors. 1245. There is plenty to do, I suppose, in the fagging way ? — Yes. 1246. Can the Queen's scholars fag the town boys? — Yes, but they have not much opportunity of doing so. The only thing they could do would be to send them on a message, to fetch their ball or bat, and little things of that kind when they are together. 1247. But a Queen's scholar has a right to fag the town boys, and the town boys have not the right to fag a Queen's scholar ? — Yes ; the younger Queen's scholars are excused because they have their hands full. 1248. Should you say there are scarcely fags enough for the duties they have to perform ? — Not enough ; but you cannot help that ; you cannot make more. 1249. You might reduce the fagging, might you not ? — I should like to do so. 1250. Are not the opportunities for reading and playing on the part of the junior boys greatly inter- fered with by this system of fagging ? — Yes, but one can only work through it. It would be impossible to deal with it in the way of putting it down. 1251. May not a boy when he finds a junior at his lesson in school send him away ? — Not when he is in school in school hours. 1252. But if he finds him reading in the college, in his bed-room, or wherever he is, may he interrupt his reading and send him away on any trifling message ? —Yes. 1253. Do you think the fagging system a useful one ? — I do not see how to alter it. 1254. Do you think it a benefieial system ? — No, not altogether. I think the juniors have more than they ought to have, but there is no hard work to be done. 1255. It does not strike me as being a very useful system ? — Nor does it strike me, but it has always been a system when boys have been together in an evening, or at any other time, that the junior should fetch and carry for the elder, and they do make them do it perpetually, so that unless you are constantly with the boys you cannot prevent it. 1256. Do you think the school would suffer sup- posing the system of fagging as it at present exists were put an end to ? — I think you must have a system of recognized authority, or you would have a system of unrecognized authority. If you had not a recog- nized fagging system you would have a bullying system. As a general rule fagging as it at present exists is of a very modified character. 1257. {T^ord Devon.) Do you concur with others in opinion that the system of fagging as it at present exists is much mitigated ? — Yes. 1258. Do you think that the system h.as any 3 14 440 PCTBLIC SCHOOLS COMMISSION: — MINUTES OF EVTDENCE. WEST- MINSTER. lieu. C. B. Scott. tendency to breed up any kindly relations between the fagger and the faggee ? — Often it does. 1259. (Lord Clarendon.) And sometimes the re» verse, I suppose ?— Occasionally. 1260. {3Ir. Vaicffhan.) Does thfs evil which you 23 June 1862. seem to admit, of the constant employment of the — — ^— little boys on the foundation, appear to you to be eapable of mitigation by limiting the power of fagging to the highest form boys instead of the two highest forms? — In the college only the seniors ha\e the power to fag. 1261. {Lord Devon.) The third election boys have the power ? — That is with respect to what we may eall the external world. When they are out of college in the fives court, or the cricket ground, the seniors have the power to send the little ones on messages and so on, but in college the junior town boys attend to the senior town boys of the sixth form, and no others ; wliilc the junior college boys attend to their seniors and no others. 1263. {Mr. Vmighan.) How many seniors are there in number? — Twelve; while thei^ are only If juniors. 1263. Again would it not be practicable to limit the amount of fagging of the individual boj's by extending the number of those who were liable to be fagged ? — You can only extend the number of those who are liable to be fagged by carrying the work on another year. 1264. Do you not think it might extend not only to the junior form for one year, but that it should extend to the next form above ? — The great evil of the thing is the constant calling away of the boys ; and tliis had better not be prolonged. It is not that the boy is made to labour like a slave. 1265. Does not the power of fagging belong to more and lower boys than even the power of main- taininsi discipline, I mean the monitorial power? — Yes. 1266. Do you think it a power less liable to be abused than the monitorial power ? — Yes. 1267. {Lord Devon.) Do I understand you tliat if a small boy obtains the position of captain of the school in the sixth form, he has no power to have a fag because he wants a few inches in height ? — It depends upon his standing, not his stature. 1268. The captain of the school is the head of his election, necessarily ? — The captain of the scliool is the head of the senior election. 1269. But supposing he was a very little boy ? — He might not have the same influence, probably. 1270. {3Ir. Vaugha7i.) Through these distinctions between the town boys and the Queen's scholars, of which you have spoken, do the Queen's scholars bear anything in the relation of a school aristocracy to the rest of the boys ? — Perhaps ; but the minores gcntes are a more numerous class in the school, and they have their own privileges. 1271. But still you think that the Queen's scholars have the greater authority over the juniors? — Yes. 1272. And are they not elected by competition ? — Yes ; moreover the majority of the elder boys are Queen's scholars, so that they have physical force on their side as well. It was not so in my time at Eton. 1273. Then there is something like an intellectual aristocracy which has the command of the school ; does it amovmt to that ? — They must obtain their places by competition, but as to saying it was an intellectual aristocracy, I should not use that word necessarily. 1274. Comparatively so ? — Some of the best of the town boys are equally promising. 1275. Is it not the fact that, taking the school as a whole, one class is decidedly superior to the other. 1 do not mean to say that there is in all cases a difference, but speaking of them as two classes would not that be the character of the one with reference to the other?— That maybe so, but the boys who remain on to the end mostly stand well amongst the others. 1276. {Mr. TJwinpso7i.) Do you think that they would be looked up to as they are at present if the condition inopiain the staitutes bad been literally enforced ? — No. 1277. That wocrH have been a misfortune- to the school ? — It would have been if anything birt free competition had been introduced. 1278. If poverty was insisted upon as a; sine qua nan- ? — ^Vith respect to inopia, there is no ground for making that a qualification. 1279. I9 not inopia mentjonci as a condition in the statutes ? — I think there is something about it. 1280. {T^ord Devon.) There is a provision here that coUegii chorista should be prefen-ed' ; has that ever been carried out ? — Never. 1281. Tlie words are r " CoUegii cliorista firmario^ " rumque Jilii si modo ccetera reapondeant semper aliis " prceferantur'" ? — Yes, but it must be taken with the condition, I presume, that they must always be qualified. 1282. {Lord Cfarendon.) Yon say yon ha;ve known powers usurped by boys not entitled to them, and punishments harshly or improperly inflicted, but that in such cases it would be almost sure to be reported' to yoa. By whom would it be reported ? — by the boys or by tlie monitors ? — I can hardly say exactly ; some of the el'der boj's probably would report it. 1283. Do you think that any very harsh punish- ment, or great abuse of power would be pretty cer- tain to come to your know-ledge ? — Yes. 1284. Have you any fear about it ? — No, I Have no fear about that. I think it is very seldom likely to happen without a complaint being made at once, and then it wouki come tome without a doubt. In the ease that I i-efer to there was involved a conten- tion lietween the town boys and the Queen's scholarsj and the p;xrtres who were outnumbered in the conflict of authority came to me about it. 1285. Does much collision take place between the authority of the town boys and the Queen's scholai-s ? — Not very much ; though, as you may suppose, there is always a great jealousy as to any encroachment on what each party considers its own peculiar privileges. 1286. {Mr. Vaughan.) Do you prefer the arrange- ment whereby there are three vacations in the year to that of having two long vacations ? — I certainly think it better for us, situated as we are in London. 1287. Do yon find immediately before thebreaking- up of the school, and immediately after the assembling, that you get less work done ; that is to say, before and' after the holid.iys ? — No, not before the holiday's, be- cause we keep them up by examinations. 1288. Do you think that three breaks in the year are desirable ; that is to say, can you get as much work done, there being three short vacations, as you would if there were only two longer ones ? — It is decidedly best for us, situated as we are ; because if you have only two, one must occur during the summer ; the consequence would be, that we should be in London in August and September, which is not a desirable time to be here. 1289. It is a local reason, then ? — Yes. 1 290. With respect to the other point, — with respect to the studies of the school, — you do not speak about that ? — I have never tried the system of having two vacations only. I have tried having eight v/eeks holiday here, and I do not think it works well. I think if you take seven weeks, it is quite long enough for the boys. 1291. {Mr. Thompson.) Do not you think four weeks at Christmas a rather short vacation ? — That is rather short, certainly ; it hardly gives us rest enough. 1292. {Lord Devon.) Have you the practice of early plays now ? — Yes. I made a change about that some little time .ago ; now we have generally a late play, at 1 1 o'clock. 1293. Lord Lansdowne used to come down for the ceremony, and he knelt down by the side of the Head Master ? — Yes ; the statute which has reference to that matter is the statute De Vetiia Ludendi, which says, <• Nunquam fas erU discipulis Ivdere absque de- PUBLIC SCHOOLS COMMISSION : —MINUTES OF KVIDENCE. Ul " caiii, (tilt, eo absente, ejus vicemgerottis et ludi- " magistri veiiia, idque solum post meridiem, nee " scppius (juam semel in una hebdomada, utla de " causa : in qua atttem hebdomada dies Jestus in- " eideril, in ea nulla ludendi venia detnr." 1294. {Mr. Vaug/ian.) You say that the juniors go to bed at 10 o'clock and the seniors avo required to be in bed at 11 ; Low do you prevent the rest ot" the juniors Crom being interrupted by the seniors coming to bed an hour afterwards ? — They are not mucli dis- turbed, and it" they are a little, it does not seem to do them any harm. 1295. They do not wake (hem at night ? Tliere is no playing or annoying by the elder boys when they go to bed ? — No. 1296. {Lord Clarendon.) Should vou consider that the new room which luis been built is a fair com- pensation tor the cloisters ? — It is not so good, of course, but it is better than nothing. 1297. Do the boys use it ? — Yes. 1 298. Do they like it ?— Y'es. 1299. What do they do there ? — They play fives and knock about balls. 1300. {Lord Devon.) Do they fence there ? — Y'es, and box. 1301. (Mr. Thompson.) Do you happen to know when the cloisters were taken away ? — It was later than Jlr. Weare's time ; he left in 1830. 1302. Was it in Dr. Williamson's time ? — Y'es. ^303. Why was that done ? — It was not thought decent that schoolboys should be playing about over the graves. 1304. {Lord Clarendon.) Y'ou have had no rifle corps, have you ? — No. We tried the experiment, and tlxe boys were drilled one summer, but we could never carry it on. 130,3. {Lord Devon.) Y'our numbers hardly ad- mitted it, I suppose ? — No. 1306. How many boats have you ? — Two cight- oarcd boats. 1307. Are they manned by' town boys or by col- legers ? — Jlixed. 1308. (Mr. Vaughan.) Have you been in any matchcs or boat races? — Yes; they h:ivc pulled against Eton for three years. 1309. What was the result ?— Defeat. 1310. Every time ? — Y'es. 1311. Do you attribute that to the shortness of the numbers from which to choose ? — Y'es ; we have not the same strength to choose from. It is with the greatest difficulty that we can get up a racing crew. 1312. I suppose the same observation would apjdy to cricket ? — Yes, though the boys do play matches. One is glad of anything that will give life to the game. 1313. Do they play with Eton ? — No ; it would be absurd ; besides, the Eton mastei's object to it. 1314. {Mr. Thompson.) They will not allow the Eton boys to play the London boys ? — No. 1315. Have you played any matches lately ? — Yes. 1316. (Lord Devon.) Who is the judge of the swimming. Is there a swimming master ? — The head boy is responsible. We have had many boys who could swim very well. 1317. Are boys of all ages allowed to go to I he baths ? — Yes ; boys of all ages learn to swim in those baths 1318. {Lord Clarendon.) Have you any bath be- longing to the school ? — No. 1319. In your answer to question 43, with refer- ence to the results of the education at Westminster, you say no system appears likely to be so eflfeetive as the one which, taking for its groundwork the gram- matical and logical study of the languages and litera- ture of ancient Greece and Rome, should add to this mathematics and a fair amount of history, geography, and the modern languages, and should you say that with the generality of the boys a proficiency in the languages and literature of ancient Greece and Rome is obtained during the time that they are at West- 1. minster ? — I do not think that they arrive at very brilliant results, as a general rule. 1320. Do they arrive at a fair proficiency ? — The boys who remain long enough to enter the sixth form, I suppose most of them attain to something that might be called a fair proficiency. 1321. Do you thiidc that such boys as those of the sixth form, not selecting any passages containing any remarkable peculiarity, would be able to read a Latin book, we will say, which they had not seen before, and for which they were not prepared, and in which there was no peculiar difficulty of construction ?- — I suppose that about two-thirds of the sixth form would do it accurately ; such a style as Cesar's, for instance. 1322. That is to say, boys who have been on an average between four and five years at Westminster ? _Y\'s. 1323. And the remainder would be unable to read a moderately easy Latin book ihat they had not seen before ? — Without a Lexicon I should think that they might fail in doing it accurately. 1324. And with respect to Greek, how would it be ? — I should suppose nearly the same, about half of the sixth form. 1325. That certainly confirms an opinion that was given to the Commission by the Dean of Christ Church, who stated that they were obliged to make the test of classical examination exceedingly low ? — Yes. 1326. The Dean of Christ Church told us, that the matriculation test was a mild one and applied moderatclj-, notwithstanding which that it constantly happened that boys, coming from the highest forms of the public schools, were unable to stand it. jMarl- borough seemed to furnish those who were best able (0 stand the test ? — Marlborough is a public school, to all intents and purposes. 1327. (dir. Thompson.) Very much, I suppose, depends upon the number of boys in the school ? — Yes ; and 'very much of the excellence of Marlbo- rough is due to the principal, Mr. Bradley. 1328. {Lord Devon.) I was going to ask you, Mr. Scott, if you would be good enough to explain that line in italics : "further improvements are still urgently needed" ? — The chief improvements to which I have alluded I have embodied in my letter. I think one point of great importance is respecting boarding houses. We ought to hold directly from the Chapter, and to have the power of providing additional room when there was a demand for it. 1329. You certainly cannot afford to have more in a boarding house than you have. Any information which you can give us, Mr. Scott, that might be use- ful with respect to the relations between the Dean and Chapter and the Head Master of the school wo shall be very mucli obliged for. Do you consider, on the whole, that those relations are satisfactory ? — I do not think that there is an3'thing to complain of in the suljordination of the Head Master in reference to the school discipline and management, but there is a difliculty in the absolute impossibility of doing anything except by an application to the Dean and Chapter, with regard to the buildings or the carrj'ing out of any improvement whatever. That is, undoubt- edly, a serious evil. I think it will be very impor- tant, as relates to the future of the school, if some independent provision could be made for it. 1330. {3Ir. Tliompson.) Would you take the power into your own hands, and have funds invested for it ? — I am afraid nothing could be done without au Act of Parliament. Tlie school has no corporate existence whatever. It would require some corporate body to be constituted, of which the Head Master should be part, and have cognizance in some way of any pro- ceedings relating to the improvement of tlie school ; for I think if the Head Master had had opportunities of being present at the discussions which have taken place as to what was to be done for the school, there can be no doubt it would have made an enormous difference to it. At present the Chapter do all the business by themselves. It is quite in their power to 3K WEST- MINSTEK. Rev. C. B. Scutt. 23 June 1862. 442 PUBLIC SCHOOLS COMMISSION: — MINTTTES OF EVIDENCE. WEST- MINSTER. liev. C.JB. Scott. 23 Jnne 1862. prevent the thing being done tlii\t ought to be done, ■\vliilc they conceal any discussion tliat has taken place upon tl)c matter. 1331. In tlie fir.st answer you have given you say that Wcslininster school is not a separate.foundation endowed with any special property or estates of its own by the royal founders, but that it is a school similar to others in many of our cathedral establish- ments attached to the collegiate church ; do you thiidv the collegiate authorities really have the interest of the school at heart, or do tliey rather consider it an incumbrance ? — I think it is different with diiferent individuals. Our present Dean has always been a most kind friend to the .school ; but there may have been some Canons in old times who have regarded it somewhat as a nuisance, which it was desirable to abate as much as possible. 1332. Probably the school would bo more accept- able to them if it were at a greater distance? — Yes. 1333. Is the majority of the Chapter in favour of removal ? — The Dean was, but scarcely a majority of the Chapter, and one at least was strongly against it. They thought there were difficulties in the way, and so indeed there are. 1334. Have you any difficulty in getting personal access to the Dean and Chapter ? — No difficulty whatever in getting access to the Dean, but there is no getting access to the Chapter at any one of their meetings. 1335. You never were introduced, in order to give you an opportunity of stating your grievances ? —I write a letter to the Dean if I want anything, and the Dean communicates it. 1336. {Mr. Vauglian.) Is the system of education at Westminster more calculated to produce critical scholars in Greek and Latin than general proficiency in mathematics, histoiy, and philosophy ? — Yes. 1337. Does that account for your distinctions in classic moderation examinations being so far above your distinction in final examinations ? — I' imagine it does. 1338. Have any university prizes for composition been obtained by Westminsters during the last 10 years ? — I do not think any have in composition. 1339. No university prizes for composition are re- turned in this table ? — No, I wish they wei e. 1340. Have any university scholarships been obtained ? — No. 1341. Can you account for the fact that West- minster being a school having a foundation, and its scholars supplied by competition, has omitted to gain university scholarships or university prizes, while another London school whose scholars are nominated, that is to say, a very large portion of its pupils are supplied by nomination, has succeeded to a great extent in obtaining those prizes ? — I suppose you are alluding to the Charterhouse. 1342. I was alluding to the Charterhouse, but I did not put St forward by name ? — I do not know enough of the system of the Charterhouse to account for it, but I think tliat in our own system, looking at the time that I have known the school myself, there has not been as a general rule that spirit of industry and diligence that one would desire to see ; the ex- istence of such a spirit being necessary in a school if it is to achieve a success of that kind. When we have had a willing horse now and then, I do not think he has had an adequate spur of emulation to keep him up to his mark. It is rather a delicate question, because one cannot tell how far one's own short- comings may be a cause of failure. I have tried to a certain extent to inti'oduce privr-te studies, i.e., books read in addition to the worii which the boys have to do for the examinations, but I certainly have not hitherto .succeeded, even with those who seemed willing to work, in getting a materially greater quan- tity done. 1343. Do you think as a matter of fact that the school has not been very fortun.ate in producing a lirst-rate style of scholarship, particularly as respects composition and attainments in classical history and philosophy ? — I think the best materials have been a good deal drawn off by Eton and Winchester of late ; but I cannot answer the question, by com- paring Winchester and other schools with ourselves, because our circumstances in respect to numbers are entirely different. 1344. I put the question with reference to the Charterhouse, where the numbers are somewhat smaller, because, prima facie, their system seems less favourable on the whole in getting good materials than your own ? — They live within their own walls, and cricket is their only amusement in summer. 134.5. {]\[r. Thompson.') You rather affect the water ? — We could not do without it. 1346. {Mr. Vauglian.) Permit me to ask one or two questions respecting the system of the school ; do you teach the commencement of the Latin at Westminster through the poets ; do you commence with Phajdrus under the name of jEsop's fables ? — Pha^drus ; then Ovid and Nepos, followed by Caesar and Virgil. 1347. Is it not almost necessary that the study of poetical authors should be more difficult than that of prose authors?^ — I do not think it necessarily follows. I do not think Ovid is harder than Nepos. 1348. You do not think that the more artificial collocation of words produced by metre introduces greater difficulty into the study of the poets ? — I think it is merely necessary to understand the measure and stylo, and as far as construing goes, I think Ovid is easier than Nepos. 1349. In the highest forms of your school do you systematically avoid the harder jilays of iEschylus, Pindar, Theocritu.s, and Thucydides ? — JEschylus we have seldom read, except in the sixth, but Thucy- dides constantly in the next form. 13.50. Have you Pindar ?— Not usually. 1351. Thucydides does not appear on your return of Table D ? — In that particular year to which you are referring. Table I), Thucydides did not come in. 1352. Is it upon any distinct principle that you teach the beginning of Greek in the non- Attic poetry? — Delectus first ; then Epigrams, which are convenient as affording lessons of a definite length. 1353. You then go to the Iliad ; then you go to the Attic in Euripides ? — No ; Xenophon comes in between. 1354. That is prose. Is it intentionally that you put Homer before a Greek play ? — Yes. 1355. In teaching the grammar, do yott teach all the dialects equally, or do you take the Attic as the standard, and teach the others rather as incidental to it ? — Yes. 1356. Would not that point rather to the expe- diency of making the Attic authors also the basis of Greek instruction ? — It is rather difficult to get an Attic author easy enough to begin with. 1357. How long have the Pauline Epistles been read in the school ? — I believe they were read before I came. 1358. In what point of view practically are they made the subject of instruction in the original ? — Mainly with reference to the understanding of the text and what its real force is, and also for the doc- trines embodied in them. 1359. The Pauline Epistles are also studied for the sake of the doctrines ? — Yes, illustrated from jjarallel passages elsewhere in the Scriptures. 1360. Do you think it advisable to have criticism of that kind at that very early period of life ? — It is only the sixth form. They have done the Gospels in the lower forms ; and the very easiness of the Greek in these makes them less adapted for form work. 1361. Do you think the average boys among the bigger boys of the school ever attain, either at the school or afterwards, to being able to read Horace or the Georgics with facility and enjoyment ? — Yes, I think some do. 1362. Of the highest average boys there is a sufficient to constitute a class of that kind ? — Yes. 1363. Original Greek prose is not written by the PUBLIC SCHOOLS COMMISSION : — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 443 best scholars of the school ? — No, it is very little written. Latiu composition is much more studied ; the words lieing more nearly connected witli our own language, nuicli more easily suggest themselves to the miuds of the boys. I do not think that school boys anywhere obtain a sutlicicnt command of Greek to write original Greek prose. 1364. There ai"e difficult passages given them for tran.^lation into Greek, are there not ? — Yes. 136.5. {Lord Devon.) What is the greatest number of liours you have in school in a day ; five hours and a half':' — Yes, sometimes the boys stay up another hour or more besides. WEST MINSTEK. Rev. C. B. acott 23 June 1862. The earl OF DEVON in the Chaiu. 1366. {Lord Devon.) There is one point upon which we wish your opinion, namely, the question of the removal of the present site of the school, what is your opinion upon that, ? — I was a strong advocate for removal before the discussion took place which resulted in the appointment of the Committee, but when we saw the small amount of support which, on the whole, the scheme obtained in the Chapter, and the strong opposition to it, I gave up the point and merely devoted myself to seeing what could be best done on the present site, because even if the removal should be in future contemplated, manifestly that is no reason why we sliould not put the school in the best possible state at present. It seems to me that when the votes of the old Westminsters are ana- lysed they resolve themselves into three classes : — Old Westminsters who send their sons to West- minster school ; old Westminsters who have no sons ' to send, but who look at the school with a sort of sentimental ati'ection from old association ; and old Westminsters who send their sons elsewhere and who came and advocated the removal, but seeing the feeling which was expressed against it did not at- tempt to press the thauge. With respect to those old Westminsters who send their sons here it is to be presumed that they are satisfied with the present condition of things ; but its strongest supporters were the second class who have no sons, but who fee a devotion to tlie school and who like to come down to the elections and to the plays. They raised a strong outcry in favour of the retention of the school on its present site ; but I think myself that the feeling of parents against having a boarding school in London is so strong and so general that the future of West- minster, if it remains where it is, must be to become mainly a school for half-boarders and home-boarders, coining only for the day. 1367. Have the number of boarders increased in your time in proportion to the number of home- boarders? — No. 1368. The latter have increased in a larger ratio ? — Yes. 1369. Am I correct in supposing that, in your judgment, even if all the improvements you have suggested having reference to the present site were carried into efiect, you still would not feel very san- guine that the school would increase very largely in numbers ? — I shoidd think it would not increase very largely ; but 1 cannot say to what extent it might increase. I have always felt that the duly that has been entrusted to my charge here is perfectly clear, namely, to do the best I can in order to enable us to carry on the school efficiently, and therefore I should advocate anything that could give us more air, as being most desirable for the sake of the health of the school, even although it did not bring us another boy. 1370. {Lord LyttcltOH.) You would be glad to see it removed from its present site ? — Yes ; but I think it would be putting an end to the present school, taking its funds and establishing it elsewhere. Re- moving the school would be really destroying its identity. The etfect of such a proceeding necessarily would be that you would abolish Westminster school and establish a new school, keeping up a certain amount of tradition that would attach to it from its having been founded on the remains of what was once Westminster school, and that is all. 1371. You think that a certain amount of tradition would still be kept up ? — Yes, a certain amount. 1372. You think it would be rather hard upon the old Westminsters, and that its removal would destroy the old feeling attached to it from early associations ? — I think it would, and I am an impartial witness as far as that goes. 1373. {Mr. Thompson.) But there may be a chance that, in some respects, the school would stand better ; that is to say, some of the traditions which attach to it in consequence of its site being in the midst of the purlieus of the Sanctuary, and which cannot be other than evil traditions, would disappear also if it were removed ? — I certainly feel that our position is not in all respects a good one, besides being inconve- nient to the boys. 1374. In what respect is it inconvenient to the boys ? — They have half a mile to go to their principal playground, and our narrow limits of space are much felt on a wet day, for instance, and on Sundays, if any number remain here. 1375. {Mr. J'aiig/ian.) Do you not think it possible if some of the things which have been spoken of as being of great advantage to the boj's, such, for in- stance, as the opportunity being alforded of being present at the debates in the Houses of Parliament, and of hearing the proceedings in the courts of law, may not be rather an evil than a good, as giving them a premature interest in the atfairs of life above their age, besides rendering their school duties less im- portant in their eyes ? — It may be so, perhaps. As to the exercise of their rights in going to the Houses of Parliament, the boys cannot attend there to any great extent, being obliged to go away before the serious business of the evening begins. There may be a few that go there constantly, but I am afraid they are the idlest of the boys. At the same time, I am quite aware that the old Westminsters are very much in favour of that privilege. 1376. {Lord Devon.) Have you ever gone into the pecuniary part of the question, as to the expense of the removal ? — Yes ; I have thought about it. 1377. What is the result ? — I did not see my way. 1378. {Lord I^ytielton.) At the Charterhouse we were told that the sale of the site would produce something enormous, would not that be the same liere? — No ; we have no property of our own. The school not being a corporate body has no property. At the present moment we have no playground, be- cause the inclosure in Vincent Square is tiic property of the Dean and Chapter, and although they allow us to play there, they could lock it up to-morrow, if they like, and we should have no remedy for it. It is theirs to all intents and purposes. 1379. There is the site on which the school stands ? — Yes, and there is my house, and the under master's Jiouse, and some other little property ; but it is so completely in the heart of the Chapter property that it would be impossible to sell it in open market, because they could not allow a nuisance to be estab- lished under their noses. 1380. {3Lr. Vauffhan.) Could they not make any use of the site of the school so as to derive a revenue both witli respect to that and Vincent Square ? — - With respect to Vincent Square, they have let oc long leases the site all round, subject to the conditio! of the square being kept open as a square, and of course, if it were built upon, all those tenants would come for compensation. 1381. {Lord L^yttelton.) I understood you to say that the Dean and Chai)ter were not very strong ou the other side ? — They were divided. 1382. You think that in case a removal could be accomplished, we should see a considerable increase in the school ? — Yes, that would be a great advantage, 3K2 444 PUBLIC SCHOOLS COMMISSION: — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. WEST- junster. Bei: C. B. Scott. especially if we were placed under the same con- ditions as other schools ; there could be no doubt whatever about it ; or if we did not succeed, it would be the fault of the masters, and we should deserve to be sent about our business. Under proper masters, 23 June 1862. however, we should have every prospect of doing ^— well. 1383. It has been said that if the school were placed in a place like Eton, where there is much space and great opportunities for recreation, it would tend to encourage idleness among the boys ? — Many things tend to promote idleness at Eton, and none more so thau the fact that the larger proportion of the boys have money enough to live without working. 1384. The feeling of parents against the present situation is simply an indefinite feeling of preference of oountrj' to London, not from any specific objection ? — I imagine it is simply an indefinite feeling. They entertain great objection to all the streets and courts round the .school. Victoria Street, Tuesday, 24th June 1862. PRESENT : Eari- of Clarendon. Earl of Devon. Lord Lyttelton. Sir S. Northcote. H. H. Vaughan, Esq. Rev. W. H. Thompson. The EARL OF CLARENDON in the Chair. Sev. J. Lupton, The Rev. James Lupton, M.A., and Mr Sfr. J. Turk. 1385. (Lord Clarendon.) You are a minor canon 24 June 1862. ^f Westminster, Mr. Lupton ? — Yes. 1386. How long have you been a minor canon ? — Thirty-three years. 1387. And you, Mr. Turle, are the Abbey organist ? —Yes. 1388. How long have you been organist ? — Thirty- one years. 1389. Mr. Lupton, we want to ask your opinion on the present state of the choristers, more particularly in regard to their education, in reference to which we have received some remonstrance. A memorial has been presented to us this morning ; it is more, I think, in regard to their pay than their education, but we do not consider that the question of their pay comes under our cognizance. With respect to their education, however, we are entitled to inquire ; there- fore, I should be much obliged if you will tell us what is their condition in that respect ? — Do you mean within my own knowledge ? 1390. Yes ; will you state whether there has been any deterioration with respect to their education that has come within your knowledge ? — I do not know whether it has ever deteriorated, but I have always considered that the Dean and Chapter are responsible for the education and bringing up of the chorister boys, and I believe it would be found, on reference to the statutes, that the boys are considered as part and parcel of the College establishment. I presume you have the statutes before you ; I think in page 92 it will be found that the boys are to be taught by the master, that is to say, the master of the choristers, until such time as they shall be found fit to be ad- mitted into the school. Again, a little further on in the statutes it says that after they have been taught the eight parts of speech they shall be admitted into the grammar school, and shall be taught two hours a day at least by the master. Both these cl.iuses identify them with the grammar sohool. 1391. (Lord Lyttelton.) By the master ; would that mean by the master of the choristers ? — Yes. They are to be prepared for the school by the master of the choristers, who is to be competent to teach them, and when admitted to the school to be taught by the masters there. 1392. {Mr. Vaur/han.) With respect to the first part of your statement, where do you find that they are to be taught until they are fit to go into the Bcliool ? — I understand that is the etfect of the words "Prospiciat item puerorum sahiti, quorum, et in Uteris, donee ut in scholam nostram admittantur, apti censebuntur ;" and further down, " Choristne postquam octo orationis partes memoriter didicerint et seribere James Turle called in and examined. nicdiocriter noverint, ad scholam nostram ut melius in grammatica proficiant singulis diebus profestis accedant, ibique duabus minimum horis maneant et a preceptoribus instituantur." 1393. {Lord Lyttelton.) Does not that mean that they are to be separately brought up by the master until they are fit to be admitted into the school ? — Yes, the master therefore of the boys is not only to teach music but grammar. 1394. It must refer to music as well ? — Yes, but he is to teach them letters as well — " et in literis." I was merely asked to come here on behalf of the bo3's, and I thought before I did so I had better look over the statutes, and I certainly think these words will show that the boys, although their duties were confined to the Cathedral, were also identified with the school. The statutes, which were framed in the time of Queen Elizabeth, contemplated tliat the cho- risters were to go to college, and that they and the sons of the tenants were cateris parib?js to be pre- ferred, both as to becoming King's or Queen's scholars and going to the University : " Et collegii choristte firmariorumque filii, si modo cetera respoudeant sem- per aliis preferantur." 1395. They are to be taught two hours a day as soon as they are fit ? — Yes. I am sure you will pardon me for speaking of myself, but I may mention that I was a chorister at York. Dean Markham took the greatest interest in me. I went to the grammar school there, to which the chorister boys were entitled to go if they pleased. I asked leave of the master to learn Latin when I was about 14 years of age, and the master said of course I might. I, therefore, took verj' great pains, and weut every morning before the 10 o'clock service, to say my les- sons, and I worked very hard. My so doing was re- ported to the Dean ; and he asked me what I wanted to be, and I said I should like to become a clergyman. I never contemplated at that time going to the univer- sity ; I thought, however, I might be ordained as a literate. Shortly after an exhibition from the school to Queen's College, Oxford, became vacant, which was offered by the master to the Dean for me. The Dean, however, having already made provision for me to go to Christ Church, declined it. 1396. {Lord Lyttelton.) When did you begin learning Latin ? — I do not think I began till I was 14 years of age. 1397. When were you in a fit state to go to the university ? — At the age of 20. I went in the year 1819, and I was born in the ye.ar 1799. 1398. You began the rudiments of the Latin lan- guage about the age of 14 or 15 ? — Yes. PUBLIC SCHOOLS COMMISSION : — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 445 1399. I suppose there was Greek taught also? — Yes. 1400. Was that at the university ? — Previously. 1401. Do you rcmembor when vou ooiuineaceJ Greek ?— No. 1402. You began before you went to the univer- sity ? — Yes, I was examined in it by the present Bishop of St. Asaph after matriculation, that he might know in what class to place me. When at the univer- sity I succeeded in being placed in the second class, mathematics. My name will be found in the class paper of Michaelmas term, 1822. I was put on in Herodotus. 1403. Would that be when you were about 17 or 18 ?— Twenty. 1404. Is it not a short time from 14 to 17 or 18 to get a good knowledge both of Latin, and also of Greek so as to be able to construe Herodotus ? — Perhaps it may be, but I began late in life. 1405. You cannot remember how many hours a day you gave to it ? — No, but I know I was always reading. 1406. (Mr. Thompson.) May I identify the school you were at by asking whether it was kept by a Mr. Grayson ? — Yes. 1407. Was it a large school ? — It was a small school at the time I was there, but it has been en- larged since. 1408. (Lord Clarendon.) Was the school in con- nexion with the cathedral ? — The cathedral autho- rities were trustees. 1409. (Mr. Thompson.) It was not strictly speaking a chapter school ? — It was the only school we had. 1410. Did jou think it was considered at York as a school in connexion with the cathedral? — I do not know, it is such a long time ago. This I know that I am indebted for my present position to the advan- tages which I obtained by going to that school. 1411. You said that the condition of the West- minster choristers had not deteriorated in }'our time ? — I think not, I think they have always been the same. 1412. (Lord Clarendon.) The memorial to which I alluded just now, and which we received this morning, states that the choristers were formerly granted a free education in Westminster school ; but in 1848 they were excluded from such rights and compelled to receive instruction of an inferior des- cription imparted by one of the sacrists of the church, who receives annual emoluments to the amount of 100/. or thereabouts? — That was true, and is evidenced by Mr. Turle, the organist, sending his own boys there. 1413. Went to what school ? — To the great school. Three of his sons were educated there. 1414. (To 3Ir. Turle.) Tell us, if you please, what the change was that was made in 1848 ? — The school which was established then for the chorister boys was somewhat on the National school system, and the present master teaches the boys their own language, with writing, arithmetic, and the Latin grammar. He is altogether a different kind of master from a grammar school master. 1415. {Lord Lyttelton.) As a matter of fact did they use the privilege ? — Not very much ; my three sons went to Westminster school. 1416. They did, we understand, but did any of the others ?■ — I think so. 1417. NVere there always in the great school some of those boys ? — Not always ; sometimes there were two or three there, and sometimes there were considerable intervals when none of the boys attended, but still I always thought that it was an inducement for superior people to bring their sons as choristers. 1418. Was it by a regular order of the Dean and Chapter that they were excluded ? — Yes. 1419. (Lord Clarendon.) Was it ever the habit of the boys to attend the school for the purpose of standing for the scholarships ? — No. 1420. Because that is supposed to be, as I under-- stand, one of the objects in admitting them to the WEST- MINSTER. licv. J. Lupton, Mr. J. Turk. 1862. school, that after they had lost their voices, and even before they might be able to compete with the other boys on tiio foundation ? — My sons had the same opportunities afforded them of standing for college as the other boys in the school. 1421. In consequence of the education they received 24 June there ? — Yes, in consequence of the education they received there. 1422. They were fit for it then ? — Yes, but they declined to stand. 1423. That is to say that up to the year 1848 those boys were permitted to receive a classical education ? — Certainlj'. 1424. And since 1848 the classics have been ex- cluded as far as their education is concerned ? — They have been excluded, with the exception of learning the mere rudiments of Latin grammar. 1425. The system of education provided for them being purely that of the National system ? — Yes. 1426. Do you think that has altered the character of the class of boys who are sent as choristers ? — Most certainly. 1427. Where do the boys go to now, where is the ncAv school ? — It is held at the back of my house. A room was built for that purpose by Dean Buckland. 1428. Do yoti consider that the choristers are now entirelj' excluded from the great school ? — Entirely. 1429. They have nothing whatever to do with it ? — Nothing. 1430. Was the school built on purpose ? — Yes, it was a new building. 1431. It was built bv Dean Bucklaud, you say ? — Yes. 1432. How muu)^ boys is it calculated to hold ? — I cannot say ; 16 now occupy it. 1433. Does it accommodate them properly ? - Hardly. 1434. The ofBce of schoolmaster was given to one of the sacrists, was it ? — Yes. 1435. (T^ord Clarendon.) Do I understand you to say that the National schoolmaster was made a sacrist for that purpose ? — I believe so. 1436. And to liis office of sacrist was added that of sub-librarian ? — I think so. 1437. So that the two offices being united paid a National schoolmaster for that purpose ? — That is so, I believe. 1438. Without an}' expense being charged to the Dean and Chapter for a schoolmaster ? — Yes. 1439. I suppose if the two offices of- sacrist and sub-librarian continue to exist they will have to be paid for ? — Yes. 1440. They have generally been separated, have they not ? — Yes ; I believe the two amount to some- thing like 100/. a year. 1441. Is the attendance at this school compulsory ? —Yes. 1442. The boys are obliged to attend ? — Yes ; I can speak positively on that point, because I know that some of tlie boys' parents were much dissatisfied with the new style of education adopted, and there- fore wished to avail themselves of Westminster school, but were not allowed to do so. 1443. That is to say that the parents are compelled to send their children to that school, they not being satisfied with the description of education which the children obtain ? — Yes, they must go there ; my three sons were not compelled to leave the great school, they being at that school before the choristers' school was established. 1444. Was it by a written order of the Dean and Chapter that that regulation was made ? — I have seen nothing in writing about it. 1445. Do you know on what the detcrrainatica to establish a new school was founded? — Many of the boys had a difficulty to fill up their time between the morn- ing service at 10 o'clock and the evening service at 3 ; they would frequently be running about the streets, idling their time, consequently this school was established for them. It was done, I believe, from a very good motive by the Dean and Chapter, 3K3 446 PUBLIC SCHOOLS COMMISSION: — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. WEST- MINSTER. fiev.J.Luplon, Mr. ./. Turk. a June 1862. for I am firmly convinced that Dean Buckland wished lo do what was for tlic benefit of the boys, but it has not turned out a style of education which is calculated to induce peoiile of a better class to make their sons chorister.*. 144(3. What alteration would you wish to see es- tablished there, what do you believe would be satis- factory to the parents of the choristers ? — I think if Westminster school was too inconvenient, — and there is certainly some inconvenience about it, the service of the church interfering a good deal with the school hours, — they ought to have done what has been done at St. Paul's, namely, to have had a clergyman, a man of classical attaintments, appointed to superintend the education of those boys, which would have answered every purpose. 1447. {Lord Devon.) Is there any provision what- ever, Mr. Turle, either in the shape of apprenticeship fees or superannuation allowances when the boys come to that age that they lose their voices, by which they can be apprenticed out or put to any business ? — None whatever. 1448. The boy is merely discharged from the choir ? — No further notice is taken of him. 1449. He is left to shift for himself? — Yes. 14.50. {Lord Lyltflton.) Was the regulation of 1848 made by a written oi-dcr ? — I do not know. 1451. Before 1848 was there no school provided for them at all ?— No. 1462. Those who did not go to Westminster school went where they could ? — They went home, and I pre- sume their parents sent them to evening schools, or obtained private tuition of some kind. 1453. You yourself only taught them music ? — That was all. ' 1454. No one taught them the classics before ? — No. 1455. How long are they at their musical duties in the day ? — They come to me before morning service every day, and then when, the service is over, as far as the music is concerned, I have done with them. Occasionally again if I am obliged to take them out of school there is anything particular required for the service, so that I am obliged sometimes to interfere with the school hours, but I do not do so if I can possibly avoid it, 1456. Can you say how many hours, taking one day with the other, they spend in their musical work ? — One hour a day besides the cathedral services. 1457. About three hours and a half a day? — Yes ; they go into school from eleven to one o'clock, and after the afternoon service from a quarter to four till five, so that they have a little more than three hours schooling a day. 1458. Do the Dean and Chapter appoint the ch Drister ■fooys ? — That entirely rests with me. People bring their children to me, for it depends of course on their having a voice fit for the otHce. 1459. Ordinarily speaking, from what class of life are they chosen ? — Sometimes they are the sons of tradesmen, of clerks, of people engaged in commer- cial houses, and generally of that class. 1 was look- ing over my list a day or two ago, and I found that one or two of the boys had no father or mother. They are poor boys, and it was an object witli them to obtain the office. 1460. Are any of them children of the labouring classes, and of mechanics? — They are not exactly mechanics, rather above that ; but I have had. in for- mer times, the sons of men possessing an income from 400Z. to 600/. a year. 1461. Do you think something above what is called the National system, some sort of commercial educa- tion, is what the parents would wish to obtain for these boys ?■ — Yes. 1462. Together with some provision for them when their voice fails ? — Yes. 1463. Do you think they might be apprenticed ? — ■ That might bo done, but at present nothing is really done for them at all. 1464. You do not think the education they have is sutlicient for them. Is it that you think that accord- ing to the letter of the statutes they have not the education which was originally intended for them, or that you really believe that a classical education is desirable for them ? — I think the fact of their having a classical education would vei'y much raise the class of boys who art; sent to me, and in this opinion I am confirmed by the example of Magdalen and New Colleges, Oxford, where, not only is a classical edu- cation given, but also the prospect of scholarships in the university. 1465. You wish them to have a classical education ? —Yes. 1466. Should you wish to return to the old system of admitting them to the great school ? — Yes ; I think they should be compelled to attend. 1467. ( To 3Ir. Lvpton.) By the statutes they are only required to be two hours in the great school ? — ■ That is, two hours at least; "duabus minimum horis." 1468. {To Mr. Turle.) Do you not think that the hours of school should be made to suit the hours of their musical work ? — Their musical work, I think, need not interfere with their school hours ; tliat might be arranged. The church service no doubt does interfere ; I know that from my own experience. 1469. I am including that in the musical work ? — Yes. 1470. Before 1848 they were admitted to the great school, and were still under your teaching in respect to music ? — Yes. {Mr. I^upton.) You see, it is contemplated that they should be resident the same as the scholars, and if they were resident there would be no great diffi- culty, but as they were driven away that created a ditficulty. They ought to be resident, just the same as the (Queen's scholars are. 1471. ( To 3Ir. Lvpton.) Where do you Had that? — The statute talks about their table. 1472. You have no doubt that they ought to have their meals ? — It is evidently contemplated. 1473. Do you think they should live at the school ? — I have no doubt that was the original intention. They were all intended to be together, and as a con- firmation of that, you will find that they were to wear the same dress, gowns, and caps, like the Queen's scholars. 1474. Do they do so now ? — No ; they have never done so in my recollection. 1475. Do they wear any college dress whatever ? — No; none whatever ; but if you look to the statutes, you will find they were to wear the same dress. You will find it in the statute " De Vestibus," and that presumes that they were in the college: " vestitus — sit " et modestus discipulorum et choristarum uuius " modi et ejusdem coloris." 1476. There can be no doubt about that, I think ? — And further they were to sing in the morning, and then go to school. 1477. {To Mr. Turle.) Do they themselves have to pay for their surplices ? — Yes. 1478. And for their washing ? — Yes. 1479. They have no allowance whatever ? — They have the Easter guinea. 1480. They do not pay for the school? — No. 1481. {Sir S. Northcote.\ Do you hold the office which is described in the statutes as magistrum cho- ristarum ? — Yes. 1482. Have you any direction from the Dean and Chapter that in giving the choristers their instruction you are to be guided by the statutes ? — I have simply to teach them their duty, to teach them the art of singing as well as the rudiments of music generally. I have nothing more to do with them. I do not observe the statutes as regards their education beyond that. 1483. That is what I want to know. Do you consider your.self bound by the statutes or have you any other regulations given to you by which you are to be guided ? — No, none whatever. 1484. With regard to the boys who you say before 1848 were ruuning about the streets, were they not PUBLIC SCHOOLS COMMISSION : —MINUTES OF KVIDENCE. 447 in any way unJer your ch.arge ? — No ; not after tbey left the eliiucii ; they were then supposed to go home. 148o. Are you not eonsidered responsible for the morals or healtli, or iu other respects for the well- being of these boys ? — Yes, of course ; I look after their general character and demeanour as far as their living out of college will allow. 1486. I mean with regard to tlie employment of the boys during the time they are not under your charge ? — Not beyond my giving general instructions. Of course before 1848 they used to have to go home after service, and I always ordered them to go direct to their re.-pective homes wherever they were, and tlie_y lived in all parts of the town, as is still the case. 1487. Have you read that jinrt of the statutes whicli relates to the duties of the master of the choristers ? — No. 1488. You have a general idea of those duties ? — Yes ; I know, I am supposed to teach them musical instruments and music. 1489. Then in fact the boys have never been given into your charge except for the purpose of teaching them nuisic ? — No. 1490. They never went from their homes without your knowledge, that is to say their friends never allowed them to go out to sing ? — As far as I know, their friends never allowed them to go out to sing without my knowledge. I always had the supervision of them. 1491. With regard to what you said as to the boys running about during a considerable length of lime, that did not apply to the time since they had been attending the present school ? — No ; their time now can be better accounted for. They are at practice, church and school, from 9 to 1 and from 3 to o ; all the rest of the day they are entirely left to themselves. 1492. Do you know what proportion of boys have at any time been in the great school besides your own three sons ; have you known any other boys to attend ? — I have known other boys, but certainly a very small proportion 1493. {Lord Lytteltoii.) Have you a degree your- self ?— No. 1494. {Mr. Thompson.') I think you said that the boys who come to you now are often of a ditferent rank in life to those who used to come ? — They are certainly not like what they were 20 years ago. 1495. Were they 20 years ago all equal iu rank and position ? — No, I mean taking them one with another. 1496. They were of very difterent ranks in life ? — There was a difference certainly. 1497. Sliould you say that it was at any time good for the choir that they should all be obliged to attend the grammar school, and do you think their parents would be of that opinion ? — I have always been an advocate for their going to Westminster school. 1498. But their friends have only very rarely acceded to your wish ? — Only very rarely. 1499. So that in point of fact their attendance at the grammar school became a nullity ? — Nearly so. 1500. That I suppose \vas Dr. Buckland's reason for making the change ? — I believe only five ever did attend the great school, but I cannot but think that, supposing it to be generally known that the choristers would be educated in Westminster school, professional men would be only too glad to send their sons to the choir in order to obtain for them a good classical education. As before, I instance Magdalen and New Colleges, Oxford. 1501. Out of 16 ? — There were only 12 chorister boys at that time. 1502. Within what time have you heard of any choristers going on the foundation and becoming Queen's scholars? — I do not know any single instance, but I know it might have happened in the case of my own sons, because the under master came to me and asked if they should stand. 1503. You did not wish your sons to go to the university ? — ^No. Mr. J. Turk. 24 June 1862 1504. Do you think that the parents of any boy at WEST- any time in the choir wished their sons to go to the MINSTEE. university ? — Tiiere was one boy named Gurnev, who „ lived with me, and his friends wished him very much "'','>''• "^ ^'^f"' to go. 150^. That is one instance ? — Yes. 1506. But beyond that one instance ha\e you known such a wish to exist iu the course of your experience ? — Only one in my time, but before my time I believe there was one Avho took a degree at Cambridge, and was afterwards organist of Trinity College. 1507. {Mr. Vauyhan.) Did you at any time give to the choristers literary instruction of any kind ? None ; it was always understood when I was appointed and by others before me, that they were to receive instruction from the masters in Westminster school if they so pleased. 1508. Were they compelled or expected to receive any liter.iry in.-lniction from anybody ? — The)' had simply the privilege given to them of going to the school. 1509. I mean before the)' were fit for going to the school ? — Most boys go to school somewhere, and 1 think their friends generally provided some sort of instruction. 1510. It was left entirely to their friends ? — It was left' entirely to them. 1511. Were your sons who went to Westminster school choristers at the time they went ? — They were. 1512. Were they formally admitted as members of the school in any way by the Head JMaster ? — On the receipt of an order from the Dean, they were received iu precisely the same manner as any other boy. 1513. After they had attended the school some weeks ? — No, immediately on their becoming cho- risters. 1514. Did the master admit them and enter their names ? — Yes. 1515. At the time of their admission vrero they informed tliat there was any limitation either as to the instruction they would receive or the number of hours during which they would be admitted ? — Certainly not ; they partook of all the advantages of an education at the school exactly the same as the other hoys. 1516. Did they remain iu the choir after their admission to the school ? — Yes, just the same. 1517. Did their attendance at the school at all inter- fere with, or was there any complaint of its interfering with their duties iu the choir ? — Not at all ; the master would let them out as the bell rang for service. Their attendance iit service might possibly have interfered with their play. 1518. Did not their attendance at choir interfere with their duties in the school ? — No ; the only thing that occiu'red might be this, ray son might have been at the head of his class when he left the school to go to church. There may have been 10 or 14 boys in the class, and when he came back from the church he was put down to the bottom iu consequence of his being absent so long, and then he worked up again. 1519. Could he make at all the same degree of pro- gress in the school so as to enable him to continue on a level with other boys of the same age ? — Certainly. (^Mr. Lupton.) I think the accident of Air. Turle living in the cloisters, and thus being enabled to send his sons to the school, confirms the opinion I entertain that these boys were intended to be resident. I think, if we could ascertain the original practice of the foundation, it would be found that the choristers were housed within the walls of the college. 1520. {Mr.Vaughan to Mr. Turle.) If your boys were able to attend to the whole of the education sufficiently to be on a level with the other boys, in what point of view do you I'ecommend some other provision to be made for the instruction of choristers now, for we understand you do not pro- pose that they should return to the grammar school, but that they should have an instructor to themselves? — I recommended a separate provision being made, sup- 3 K4 448 PUBLIC SCHOOLS COMMISSION: — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. WEST- WINSTK]}. Itev. J. Lujiiun Mr. J. Tiirle. posing the choristers to remnin unboarded. * [But in the event of their being boarded, au arrangement whicli I have always desired to see carried out, as it would be a great gain, both to the service of the church and the chorititers themselves, I see no reason 24 Jime 1S62. why they should not be made to attend Westminster __^_ school.] 1521. You would desire to have a schoolmaster appointed to teach them in particular? — I should see no objection to that. That would be a very excellent plan, always supposing thcra to be uuboarded. 1.522. You mean that they should be taught by a person having a degree of master of arts ; you would prefer that to their'being taught in the great school ? I know that the masters did not like the interruption to the work which was occasioned by the boys going to church. 1523. It deranged the teaching of the form, I suppose ? — Yes. 1524. Did it materially throw back the boys them- selves ?— It ve.xed them occasionally, and rather over- worked them, but this dithculty could be easily over- come did the choristers as a rule, and not as the exception, go to Westminster school. 1525. So that there was a difficulty to make it work well ? — Yes. 1526. And in consequence of that you do not ask for a restoration of that system ? — That is a strong reason why I should think it would be better if they could have a separate school, supposing the existing arrangement of living at home to be continued. 1527. If you were asked to propose a remedy to the present state of things, what would it be. Suppose, for instance, the Chapter should propose that you should name your own remedy for the present state of things, will you inform the Commission what that remedy would be ? — In the event of it not being possible to send them to Westminster school, I should say give them a similar education to the boys at St. Paul's, where they are placed under the charge of a master of arts, and where, as at Westminster, they are not boarded. 1528. {Lord Li/ttelton.) They do have a classical education at St. Paul's ? — Yes. 1529. (Mr. Vauffhan.) Do you know the qualifica- tion of the master who gives them their education there ? — Yes ; he is one of the minor canons. 1530. {To Mr. Liiplon.) I would ask you the same question, Mr, Lupton, that I asked Mr. Turle, what would you ask of the Chapter as the best mode of meeting the present difficulty ? — My remedy would be this : — I would bring the boys back to college, give them a house, put them under a master of arts, and let him be their superintendent master, and send them in for general education to the school, letting them take their lot w'ith the other boys and go to the university if they could succeed in obtaining an exhibition. 1531. (Lord Lyttelton.) Do you think that they could go to the school for the full hours ? — If they were a little inefficient it might be made up by the help they would oVjtain by the separate master, whose duty it would be to see that their lessons were done, and that they were educated in such a manner that he would be able to send them to the great school and give them all its advantages. 1532. {Lord Clarendon.) You think they should be instructed by a master of arts who should prepare them ? — That would be the simple remedy. I do not know what the state of things may have been formerly, but I am clearly of opinion that the boys ought to be within the walls of the college, and if they were there the difficulties would \-anish. 1533. {Lord Lyttelton.) Looking at the statute (p. 92), it is not quite clear that they were to be living in the college before they were admitted in order melius in. grammatica proficiant ; because, although the statute distinctly provides that they were to be under certain conditions, to get up at five, to dress themselves, to say their prayers morning and evening, * This portion of tlie answer was added after the conclusion of the examination. all this they were to do after they had been admitted, which was not till they had obtained a certain amount of knowledge of grammar ? — It does not exactly say so, I believe. The choristers had com- mons and livery (dress) like the rest, and I do not see how tliey should be excluded from residence. 1534. I do not see that, except that they were to s\t in convictu? — I think all this is intimately con- nected with the question of property belonging to the college ; because you will see that by the statute " De bonis et possessionibus Collegii," none of the houses in the precincts of the college were to be let by the Dean or Canons on any conditions whatever. All the property is to be reserved for college uses, and not to be disposed of in any way, on the penalty of the Dean and Canons losing their situations. 1535. With respect to these boys, you think the presumption is that they were to be on the same footing as the rest ? — Yes. 1536. They are to have in convicfu ediicaiionem ct Uheralem institutionem ? — Yes, and there is another thing you are aware of, that by the statute there are to be two plays, and that the master of the school, the mnc/istrtim, is to take care of the Latin play, and the mrigistriim choristariun is to take care of the English play. 1537. What is the extent of the education they now get. Do you know whether it goes at all beyond that of an elementary school ? — I do not. 1538. Do they learn history and geography ? — I do not know. 1539. {Mr. Vaitgltan.) Do you think that any inference can be drawn from the fact that the statutes require them to act an English play whereas the discijmli must act a Latin play. Do you think that that points to any difference in the education they were to receive, or that it implies that there was to be any inferiority in the education of the choristers as compared with that of the collegers? — With respect to the position of the choristers, I should think it must have been inferior to that of the collegers, because they were only to be admitted on certain conditions, for instance, they were to go into the school to be instructed two hours a day at least, so that it appears to have been a special privilege to be admitted one of the discijmli. 1540. {Sir S. Northcote.) Do I understand j'ou that when one of these boys was admitted a discipiilus he ceased to be a chorister ? — The statute says that after the choristers the tenants shall have the preference ctpteris paribus in going to the university, so that they must clearly be eligible to go to the great school. 1541. {Lord Clarendon.)lsit the fact, Mr. Lupton, that the choristers have no allowance whatever, for board, lodging, medical attendance, and clothing ? — I am not sufficiently acquainted ^^ith the matter to answer the question. 1542. (Lord Lyttelton.) Mr. Turle said that they had none whatever? — (Mr. Turle.) If they do not go back to the school they ought to have some privilege given them. 1543. They might have a larger amount of money? — I believe the whole of the sum now paid to them amounts to about 135/. a year. 1544. Is this statement correct that the payment of 16 choristers is for four seniors 13 guineas each, and a guinea for livery ; for four juniors 9/. 2s. each, and a guinea for livery ; for four juniors of the second class 8/. each ; and to four supernumei'aries nothing at all ? — Yes. 1545. What is the livery? — OnEaster Monday they receive a guinea each, which is called gown money. 1546. How practically do they apply that, are they bound to buy a gown ? — No. 1547. It is simply a perquisite ? — Yes, with the exception of buying a cap. 1548. Do you know whether that rate of paj^ment was fixed by the statute, or has it since been in- creased ? — It has always been the same ; when I was first appointed there were onlj' 8 boys, some years PUDLIC SCHOOLS COMMISSION: — MIXUFES OF EVIDENCE. 44.9 nitcrwards that number was raised, at my suggestion, to 10, 12, and finally 16. 1549. How long have you had 16? — I think about 10 years. It was done in this way : we had what are called practising boys waiting for vacancies (and sometimes we have had a good many of them), and when the changes were made by Dean Buckland in 1848, I suggested to him the desirability of in- creasing the number of boys from 12 to 16, and giving the four supernumeraries the advantage of attending school. This was carried out. 1550. Was the number increased after the new school was built ? — Yes. 1551. Is there ample room in the school for 16 ? — It is ver^' uncomfortable indeed, and the atmosphere at times is exceedingly disagreeable. 1552. You do not know when the money payments were fixed ? — No. 1553. It is a long time ago? — A long time ago. 1554. {Lord Clarendon to Mr. Lupton.) Is there anything else you wish to communicate to the Com- mission ? — lam perfectly clear that every member of the foundation had formerly a residence within its walls, down to the very almsmen. Indeed, so late as the year 1777, the houses of the almsmen existed. By a Private Act of Parliament obtained by the Dean and Cliapter, they were allowed to be taken down on condition of others being built in tlieir stead. The houses were taken down, but the condition hitherto remains unfulfilled. The whole of the building3 within the precincts were to be used for the accom- modation of the several members of the establishment, Dean, Canons, minor canons, masters, scholars, cho- risters, and almsmen. 1555. (Mr. Vamjhnn to Mr. Turk.) I should be glad to ask you one question as the music master of Westminster school, do you teach the Westminster boys music ? — Yes. 1556. Do you do tliat officially as organist of Westminster Abbey ? — Not at all, it is only now and liien that I can make up a suHicient number to fornx a class ; I do not think I have had any class for the last twelve months. 1557. You do not give them musical instruction as a regular thing ? — No, it is very uncertain ; some- times I have had a class numbering as many as from 20 to 25, but that has merely been when the boys themselves have made up a class. 1558. Have you any pupils now ? — No. 1559. None whatever ? — No. 1560. Do you teach your pupils music in general, or only singing ? — Only singing. 1561. You do not teach them any instrument, your own instrument for instance? — No, I teach thera singing, and singing merely. 1562. Do you teach them the principles of music at all ? — I teach them the common rudiments. 1563. Merely the scale, and so on ? — 1 teach them the first rudiments of music, the scale, the notes, construction of the scales, time, and such rudiments as are necessary for the practice of singing. 1564. Do you teach them the chords ? — No, I do not teach them the theory of music, consequently I do not teach them the eoQsti-uctioa of chords. WKST- MINSTEU. liev. J. Litptnit, Mr. J. Tiirle. 24 Jvine 1862. The witnesses withdrew^ The Rev. Mr. Lupton has, since the above evidence was given, addressed the following letter to the Secretary : — Sib, January 31, 1863. 1 BEG to state that the original answers made by me to the questions contained in numbers 153!) and 1540, one to Mr. Vaughan and the other to Sir S. Northeote, were made in error. Since my examination before the Commis- sion 1 have, on better information, and on searching deeper into the statutes, found out my mistake. I must not wonder, therefore, at exception being made to my amended answers. You will find in the statutes, p. 87, a heading of one of the statutes in these words, " De Discipulorum duplici Elec- " tione, cap. b." This statute provides that when the Dean of Christchurch and the Master of Trinity come up to the election, they shall not only select after due examination those who are to go to the universities, but also, from the ordinary boys, those of them who shall be admitted King's (Queen's) scholars. This second election is tacitly passed by, by the Dean of Christchurch and the Master of Trinity, and left entirely to the Master of the school. But the Statute refers to this double election, and as such designates it " duplex election." Its words are general, applying to both elections, and it says, " Et Collegii Ckorisla firmario- " rumque filii, si modo ceelera respondeant, semper aliis " prteferantur." If you look to the end of this same cap. 5, on p. S:?, seven lines from the top, you will find these words, " fiet " electio eorum primum qui ad academias deinde eorum " qui in nostram scholam West' sunt admittendi." By the statute, then, the examiners are first [primum] to. choose the boys who are to go to the universities, and then [deinde], after another examination, to fill up the vacancies thus made amongst the King's scholars, and in both elections the choristers and sons of tenants are CcBteris paribus, to ha\'e a preference. This explanation will, 1 trust, show the propriety of my amended answers to the questions proposed in N03. 153i) and 1540, and 1 think will satisfy the Commission that my original answers to these questions were totally erroneous, and would greatly have misled the Commission had they not been corrected. To the Secretary of the Royal School Commission. I am, &c. James LvrTON. The Rev. H. M. Ingham called in and examined. 1565. {Earl of Devon.) Mr. Ingram, you are the under master of Westminster School, 1 believe ? — Yes, the under master. 1566. And you have the special charge of the foundation boys ? — Yes, out of school. 1567. Have you also a form ? — The under school is under my charge. 1568. The whole of the under school ? — Yes. 1569. Into how many forms is the under school divided ? — The forms rank upwards from the petty form to the under and upper third. 1570. Is there any first ? — No. 1571. Then there are three forms in fact in the under school ? — Yes. - 1572. Are they divided again ? — Y'es, each form is subdivided into upper and under forms, but at present there arc no boys in the lowest forms in the school, only in the upper and under third. 1573. Your house, I think, communicates with the college, does it not ? — Yes. 1574. Does it communicate in such a way that you 1. are practically cognizant of what goes on in the evening ; should you hear any noise, for instance ? — I can hear a noise very easily ; not, perhaps, if it was quite at the other end of the college from my house ; the chambers being very long, I do not hear a noise so easily at the farther end. 1575. What, practically, are the times when you visit the college ? — I go in occasionally of an even- ing during the time of lock hours, but I have not any system of going in at regular hours. 1576. Do you go in for prayers ? — I go in for prayers ever}' evening immediately before 10 o'clock. 1577. Are prayers read in the upper room ? — In the " upper election " room, beneath the dormitory. 1578. At what time do the boys go to bed ? — The juniors and the "second election" go to bed directly after i)rayers, the elder boys at half-past 10. 1579. The gas is not put out, I suppose, until the seniors go to bed ? — No. 1580. So that it is entirely dark after the seniors have gone to bed, — the gas is put out ? — They are 3L i?cr. H. M. Inarcnn. 450 PUBLIC SCHOOLS COMMISSION: — MINUTES OP EVIDENCE. WEST- MINSTER. liev. JI. M. Ingram. not allowed to have any other light but the gas, but the boys often provide themselves with candles to read by. 1581. But is the gas put out?— The monitor of the chamber is charged with the duty of seeing that the gas is put out, and it is extinguished at 1 1 o'clock, M June 1862. as a rule, in the dormitory. — 1582. Tlicre is therefore no light on the premises after that hour ? — The elder boys have been at times in the habit of sitting up later in the lower room, especially in the term before the election. 1533. If they do so without leave, is that a breach of the college regulations ? — Yes, it is a breach of tlie college regulations. 1584. Is it a matter of special request to you for permission to be allowed to do so? — I have given leave sometimes for the boys to sit up for a slioit time, but very rarely, since I have been in my present office. 1585. IIow long have you been there ? — Only since September last. 1586. Was that permission given during tlic winter ? — During the winter. 1587. Practically, in case of the illness of one of the boys in the cubicle, whom would he alarm or give notice to ? — He would alarm the boy nearest him, in the next cubicle, and on any alarm being made in the college, the matron in the sick room or the ser- vant would get up, and the boy would, if necessary, be removed at once. 1588. You were in college yourself, were you not ? — Yes, up to the year 1843, for four years. 1589. Comparing the present arrangements of the college generally, with those which were in existence when you were a boy, are you of opinion that many improvements have been effected ? — Yes. I am satisfied that their having a second set of rooms is a great improvement, and their not being confined en- tirely to the dormitory as in former days. 1590. By a second set of rooms, do you mean those which have been formed below ? — Yes. 1591. Do you think the system of small rooms for the purposes of study is carried out as far as is desi- rable ? — I feel some doubt about carrying out the sj'stcm of small rooms or "studies" through the whole college, so as to have a much larger number of studies. I feel a doubt about that. 1 592. Do you think it is carried far enough ? — No ; I should like to see more studies. 1593. At present there are eight, I believe ? — Yes. 1594. Which give accommodation to 16 boys ? — Yes. As a rule, not more than two boys occupy the study, but three can do so, if they choose. 1595. Do you think the introduction of the studies, as far as they go, an improvement? — Certainly. 1596. Then I gather that you wish to see that system carried further ? — Certainlj-, I should like to see it carried further, but I am not convinced that the same form of studies in the lower rooms would be of the same advantage. 1597. What form, then, would you adopt in such a case ? — I would adopt a plan in which there might be a less minute subdivision. For instance, a plan of grouping the boys in fours or fives in "studies," separated by semi-partitions, and without doors. Under the present condition of the lower room, if the master goes into it, he can see at a glance what is going on. Of course the studies of the boys give an opportunity of avoiding observation, and therefore the use of the study by the upper boys seems to me to be somewhat different from the use of it by the lower boys. 1598. You are doubtful as to the practicability of the studies for the lower boys ? — I feel doubtful. 1 feel a difficulty about the matter as to whether it would be for good or not, and perhaps my opinion is less decided in consequence of what I have heard from those who have liad more experience than myself. 1599. Do you think the practice of putting two boys together, speaking of the older boys, is as good as assigning one to each room ? — I think so, allowing them to group themselves. 1600. Do they group themselves, or are they assigned ? — They group themselves, and have been allowed to do so, I have not interfered with that. 1601. Is there any other stiitement with regard to the college buildings which you would wish to submit to the Commissioners ? — I should be glad to see an improvement made in the lower election room. I think the room in its present state is not suggestive of study. There is a want of accommodation for the boys for purposes of study, but if there could be some intermediate arrangement between the present condition of the room and that which exists in the " upper election " room, I think it would be a great advantage. 1602. The arrangement of what do you mean. The introduction of more chairs or carpets ? — No ; some arrangement of studies such as I liave spoken of, and a better supply of tables and places to sit at. 1603. The difheulty of procuring not only new furniture, but a renewal of furniture when broken, is a point which has very much pressed itself on your attention ? — Not so much the renewal of furniture when broken, (although of course many things are broken,) as the renewal of things which have worn out, such as bedding and so forth, and the furniture in the college hall. 1604. Take the bedding first. Do the boys sleep on mattresses ? — They have beds, but there are mattresses too. 1605. Supposing any of the beds are worn out or the blankets torn, to whom is the application made for new ones ? — The application would be to the Dean and Chapter. 1606. Through you ? — Yes, through me. 1607. Have you had any requests to forward appli- cations of that sort for the restoration of articles which have been worn out in that way ? — Not in regard to the dormitory at present. I have made no application on that point. 1608. Have you had representations made to you by boys of the necessity of new furniture ? — It is chiefly my own observation that I have gone upon. 1609. No complaints have been made to you on the subject ? — Not by the boys. 1610. Have you made complaints to the Chapter? — Not on that subject. 1611. Have you any reason to doubt that if you did new beds would be j)rovided. Perhaps you have had no experieuee in the matter ? — No. 1612. Passing from the furniture to the meals, is it your custom or duty to attend in the hall during dinrer ? — Yes, I do so occasionally, that is to say two or three times in the week — not every day. 1613. Docs any gentleman attend for you on the days on which jou do not attend ? — No one attends for me. 1614. From the opportunities of observation which you have had when you attended, what should you say as to the quantity and quality of the provisions w^hich are supplied ? — Generally speaking, I think it is a fair supply of good provisions. 1615. Adequate in quantity ? — Adequate in quan- tity, and good in quality. 1616. Can you speak as to the suppers as well as to the dinners ? — With respect to supper, the boys have for supper what they leave at dinner. That is with regard to the meat. Besides that, they have cheese and bread and butter. 1617. But the intention of the allowance is that they should have a meat supper as well as dinner, is it not ? — According to the present supply, they arc not always able to have a meat supper throughout the whole of the college. Consequently the lower boys do not always get a good meat supper. 1618. By the present supply what do you mean, or what period are you speaking of. Are you speaking of any recent alteration ? — There have been some slight alterations lately. 1619. Do you know at what period ? — It was since Christmas. I liardly remember the exact date. 1620. Has there been any alteration in the way of reduction ? — Yes. PUBLIC SCHOOLS COMMISSION: — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 451 ' 1621. And in consequence of that reduction, a cer- tain portion of the boys — the juniors — cannot get a meat supper ? — Not as a rule, I think. 1622. Before the reduction did they get it? — I do not think they all did. 1623. You have been there, I suppose, at the end of the dinner. In your judgment, before that reduction vas made, was there enough ordinarily left at the dinner to provide for the supper ? — I do not remain until the end of the dinner, as it has not been the custom for the master to do so, but in my judgment there would not be sufficient ; that is, as far as my observation has gone. 1624. Assuming that all that was left at dinner was applicable to supper, still you think there would not have been enough ? — Not for supper for all the boy.s. 1625. What do they have for breakfast, any meat ? — No, they have no meat at breakfost. 1626. The result of your observation of that has been, that before the alteration a certain number of boys did not get meat twice a daj', and that since the alter- ation that number has increased ? — Yes, as far as I can speak about what the boys have for supper, it is cliiefly from their own account, and not from my own observation, for I have not been in the habit of going into the hall at supper time. 1627. Have many boys made representations to you ? — It has generally come from the captain. 1628. On two or three occasions complaints have been made? — Yes; I do not think that in former days the junior boys could have had meat twice a daj' in hall ; meat for supper was not eaten by us. 1629. You used to have supper at iive ? — Yes. 1630. Do you know that the question of opening the college gardens to the collegians and perhaps to the school generally, ha^ often been considered ? — Yes. 1631. What is your opinion on that point? — I wisii very much that the gardens could be opened to college ; I think it would be of great advantage that tliey should be open, perhaps, at certain times of the day. I feel at the same time that the argument for their being retained by the persons living in the cloisters Las much weight in it, and therefore do not wish to press unduly for the use of the g.ardens, even if it were perfectly right that we should have it. If it could be had partially, I think it would be of great advantage. 1632. Do you mean partially as regards time ? — Yes, as regards time. 1633. For what purpose would the boys use it ':—, For walking and other exercises. 1634. Is it large enough for play ? — If the walks were destroyed, it would be largo enough, that is, supposing all the ground were taken up as a play ground, it would make a very good one. 1635. Would it be possible to benefit the boys by throwing open the college gardens, and still leave a large portion so as to obviate any injury to the occupiers of the houses ? — No ; I think you could not divide it with any advantage. If we could only have it on Sundays, it would be something. 1636. There are some other points upon which I -wish to put a question or two. Do you think it would be of advantage to the school to have a chapel ? Do you entertain any strong view upon that point ? — Yes, iout not for the sake of superseding the Abbey services at all times, but for occasionsil services. 1637. What special advantages do you think that would possess over the services in the Abbey ; there are separate services in the Abbey are there not ? — The services in the Abbey are not looked upon by tlie boys in the same light as the school services held in a school chapel would be, nor as I think those at Harrow and other public schools are. There is great practical difficulty in getting the boys to use the services in the Abbey as they ought, and I think it would be of great advantage if we had the oppor- tunity of gathering the boys together in our own chanel and at our own times, and so leading them, perhaps, to appreciate the Abbey services better. W^e WEST- have special services in the Abbey in the mornings MINSTER, of Saints' days at a quarter before 8 o'clock, but "TTTT those services arc not so efiective as they might be H.M. Iiiurum. in a building of our own. 1638. Is it a plain service or a choral service? — 24 June 1SG2. Quite plain, and a great contrast in that respect to — — the ordinary service in the Abbey. 1639. Is it one of your reasons for wishing to have a separate cliapel that you mi'ilit have a service of a clioral character ? — That would be one consideration, and an important one, but another more important one would be that it would give the masters freer opportunities of addressing the boys than they have now. 1640. I do not know whether you would agree with what some of tlie witnesses have said, that addresses of that sort coming too frequently lose a great portion of their ertcct ? — I am not in favour of very frequent addresses to the boys, only I think we ought to have the freedom of addressing them from the pulpit, whenever a necessity occurs, and at other special times and seasons besides the Saints' days. 1641. {Sir S. Northcote.) Are the boys in the habit of bringing in meat, or are they iillowed to bring in meat for supper or any other meal from outside the wall ? — No, they are not allowed to do anything of the kind, 1642. Have you any i-eason to think that they go out for the purpose of getting meat? — Uncooked meat do you mean ? 1643. I suppose they would not have any opportu- nity of getting it cooked, tlierefore they would not get uncooked meat ; but do you suppose they ever go out and get cooked meat ? — I have never heard of their doing so since I have been under master, nor do I suppose that tliey ever do it. 1644. Do you think they go out of doors to eat it in public houses or shops ? — They go to shops to a certain extent, but not to so great an extent as formerly, in my opinion, from what I have observed. 1645. You do not suppose they go to take any sub- stantial part of their meals there ? — They were in the habit of going to one of the shops to get their dinner on a certain day in the week when I first came into my office ; it was a day on which there was a kind of dinner in the hall which they did not like. I wrote to the steward of the Chapter, who did not object to my clianging the dinner, and the attendance at hall dinner on that day of the week was more regular afterwards, 1646. Are there regular dinners every day for each day in particular ? — They have beef four times and mutton thi-ee times a week. 1647. What was the particular dinner which they did not like ? — It was boiled beef. 1648. {Mr. Thompson.) Was the change that you made a permanent one ? — Not necessarily. The old arrangement may at any future time, on petition, be restored. 1649. {Sir S. Kortkeote.) With regard to the beer, is that of good quality ? — I believe it is very fair indeed. I have had no complaint. 1650. Are there any number of the boys who are allowed porter or a better kind of boor on private recommendation ? — No ; that would be done through the matron of the sick room. 1651. It is not done with respect to boys who take their meals with the others ? — No, not that I know of. There has been no instance of it since I have been under master. 1652. On the d.ays on which you are not present at the dinner in the hall, who keeps order ; is there any one who has charge of the boys and keeps order ? — The capt.ain has the charge of keeping order. 1653. You do not dine there ? — No, I have no maintenance allowed me in the hall. 1654. Perhaps you will just expl.ain in regard to the dinner, who carves the meat in the first place. Is there a joint put upon the table or is it carved before it is brou"-ht up ? — When I first came into office I 3L2 452 PUBLIC SCnOOLS COIIMISSIOX :— MI.VUTES OF EVIDENCE. WEST- MINSTER. Reu. H. M. Ingram. found that the whole of the dinner was carved by one person, the college butler, but it was a long process for one man to carve for forty boys, and the junior boys in consequence liad to wait a long time for their dinner. I, therefore, suggested that the 2+ June 1862. senior boys should carve for themselves ; accordingly the first ten or eleven boys have a joint put on the table and carve for themselves. 1655. When there remains a certain quantity of the joint that is not cut up, is that after^vards brought out for supper ? — Yes. 1656. I do not quite understand what you meant when you said that the meat whicli is left from dinner is brought on for supper. Am I to under- stand that a certain quantity of the joints is sent from the dinner table, some of which are cut and some uncut, and that it is only those that arc not cut that are sent up for supper ? — Tliey are cut con- secutively, that is to say, there would be one joint served from and cleai-ed, and then another would be brought up from the kitchen, and so on until the boys are all served. 1657. The-u there would remain one or more joints that are not cat ?— It might be so, but usually all the joints are begun at dinner ; whatever is left of them is served at supper. 1658. And tlicy would come up for supper ? — Yes. 1659. And would be received in the same way ? — The carving at supper is done by the college butler. 1660. And when it happened that there was not enough for supper for the whole of the boys, how would it be arranged who should get the meat and who should not ? — They would have it in order of seniority, 1661. {Lord Clarendon.) Until you suggested that alteration, did it often happen that the juniors would have to wait twenty minutes or a quarter of an hour before they were served ? — Yes, a quarter of an hour, or thereabouts, before the whole were served. 1662. And the whole time occupied by dinner would probably not be more than half an hour ? — No. 1663. {Mr. Vaughan.) I understand you to say that a certain quantity is provided for the boys for a particular day ? — Yes. 1664. That is all prepared for dinner, and as much as is not consumed at dinner is brought up for supper ? — Yes. 1665. That is the reason why the meat supper is sufficient only for part of the boys and not for tlic remainder ? — Yes. It is merely a question of the amount of supply. The meat sapper is partaken of so far as it goes. 1666. Do 3'ou think that is a good footing upon which to place the matter. It does not commend itself to me as a good one. Would not the best foot- ing obviously be that it should be first considered what is the proper diet for the boys to have, and then that this should be given to them irrespective of anything being left over from one particular meal to supply another ? — Yes. 1667. Do you, judging from your experience of the health of tlie boys, think that it is of importance to give meat more than once a day to boys who take active exercise and pursue studies in London ? — I tliink it is very important that they should have a generous diet, especially living as they do in London. 1668. Do you think it is more necessary that they should liave a generous diet because they are living in London tlian if they were enjoying tlie country air, or should you say it was equally necessary that they should have it in both cases ? — I think it would be necessary in both cases. I hardly like to say that boys require more in London than in the country ; with regard to Westminster, I firmly believe it to be a very healthy spot. 1669. And as to the exercise they take ? — They take very violent exercise. 1670. The rooms in the dormitories have recently been so arranged as that all the beds are separated by small partitions? — Yes. 1671. Considering the subject in every possible point of view, sa,nitary as well as moral, do you tliink that is a good arrangement ? — As for as my observation has gone at present I consider it to be a good arrange- ment. I think it very valuable for boys to have privacy, which they had not before, althongli it may make the necessary supervision a little more difficult. 1672. I was alluding to that among other things ; is there tlie same circulation of air and also that means of exercising control over the whole which tl".'re would be if everything was open ? — There appears to me to be a sufficient circulation of air in the cubicles ; and witli respect to the other point, I think that if any mischief took place it might perhaps be more ditficult to detect, but one of tlie most valuable points of the present arrangement is that there is in my opinion less likelihood of evil, because less temp- tation to evil. 1673. {Sir S. Xorthcote.) Do the college boys mix freely with the other boys, or is there any distinction between them in point of association ? — I think the understanding between the town and college boys is very good. It is certainly better than I remember it in my own school days. 1674. They associate in their games? — Very freely I think, both on the water and in the field ; there is no distinction that I have observed ; certainly none of a social kind. 1675. {Mr. Vaughan.') Are the school hours and recreation hours so arranged that the boys can once or twice in the course of the week get a full swing for exercise such as would produce a sweat, or is the time they have for recreation cut up into odd half hours ? — No ; I think if they like tliey can get a good sweat before any meal. I think they have very great facilities for exercise. The witness withdrew. liev. J. Marshall. "The Rev. James Marshall, INI.A., examined. 1676. {Lord Clarendon.') You are second master, Mr. Marshall, are you not ? — I am senior assistant master. 1677. How long have you occupied that position ? ' — Sixteen years. 1678. Have you all that time been in charge of the Louse ? — Nearly the whole of that time. 1679. Of the house in which you now are ? — Yes. 1680. Were you master when the old sj-stem of corrections existed ? — No. 1681. That was before your time ? — Yes. 1682. Will you state what you do as master of a boarding house, in reference to the lessons of your pupils ? — My practice is of an evening to go in from eight to nine. The boys have their tea at seven, it is cleared away by eiglit, and I go in from eight to nine, when the younger boys are assembled. 1683. That is in one of those t(vo rooms? — No, the hall. It is of considerable size, and I always make it a practice to take a new boy in that room wherever he may be placed in the school, and if I find lie has any difficulty in understanding his work I assist him. We have generally some boys who require special help, and we have now a boy from Mexico to whom I am obliged to give attention in the very elemen- tary parts of grammar. With respect to another boy who is deficient in Euclid, I would give him also a little help. From nine to ten my practice is to correct the exercises of the boys in my form. 1684. Tiiat is in dealing with the boys who are under your special cliarge, but you do not correct any exercises for the boys which are afterwards to be shown to the other masters ? — No further than looking at the exercises of the boys in the hall as they go on. PUBLIC SCHOOLS COMMISSION : — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 453 I do not, generally speaking, so much point out a mistake, as say there is a mistake -within a certain limit which tiiey have to discover for themselves. 1685. Do they show up the copy to the master in its corrected shape, or are there any marks by you which will indicate the detects and errors and at the same time tlieir own corrections ? — No. 168(5. They show it up as a fair copy ? — Yes. 1687. Are you aware that in some other schools there is a system by which in addition to the school work boys are encouraged to read, instruction being given to them in the nature of private study ? — Yes. 1688. So tluit the boys are encouraged to study by giving prizes n6w and then ? — Yes. 1689. Are you of opinion that any system of that sort could be usefully introduced or re-inlroduced into Westminster scliool ? — That would be a question more for the Head Master. In the sixth form I think most decidedly it should be introduced ; and in point of fact, I know it has been introduced and very profitably. Perhaps it mij^ht be in the course of time carried further, but that depends a good deal on the boys for the time being. I think we are too much in a whirl of excitement here. Tlie boys have to fill their minds with so many subjects, and to devote themselves somucli to the work of tlie scliool in order to ensure success at examination*, that private studies are much more retarded than they otherwise would be ; but I certainly consider that there can be no good mode of education where there is not a considerable amount of private study. 1690. Do you think, in point of fact, that the time professedly devoted to reading and work at West- minster is as profitably employed as it might be ? — 1 should hesitate to say that almost of any place ; I think I may say that tlve subject is eoustantly in all our minds, and that it a great object to make the time as profitable as possiWo. 1691. Is there any time wasted in the school itself, because I understand tliat the lessons are prepared in school by all the junior boys? — The :time spent in school is considerable. 1692. What is the greatest number of hours occupied in school in a day ? — Five hours and a half, and those who are kept up have an additional hour and a half, and consequently seven hom's in all ; but ordinarily live hours and a lialf are occupied in school. 1693. Do not you think that number of hoi rs a rather long strain on the boys ? — I think it is, but the arrangements would be diilicult to make if it were otherwise. The day is divided so as to make the work and exercise interchange with -the meals as well as may be. 1694. You are aware that the system at Westminster is diii'erent to that in other schools with respect to the work being generally prepared out of school and the boys going into school to say what they have learnt ? — I am aware of that, but I am not prepared to say tiiat the other S3'steni would have any advantage over this. I do not think that a master's time would necessarily be employed with more effect in pupil room, where boys are not classed, than in school, where they are. At Westminster a large proportion of work is prepared out of scliooL 1695. What number of masters have j'ou now ? — At present we have seven. 1696. Does that include the mathematical master ? — There is an arithmetical master besides ; it includes the mathematical master, but it does not include the arithmetical master. 1697. Is the mathematical master a resident on tlie premises ? — Yes. 1698. Does he take any form or class work besides his general mathematics ? — He did till the present half year, but now he is entirely at liberty to take mathematics and French. 1699. He takes French ?— Part of the French. 1700. The French master comes two hours a week ? — Two hours for each form, eight in all. 1701. From the experience you have had at West- minster school, have you been satisfied on the whole with the studies of the school as regards composition ? — No, certainly not. 1702. Do you refer both to Greek and Latin com- position or to Latin composition only ; Greek is not much used, is it ? — Yes, it is taught, and required at examination. 1703. You are not satisfied ? — No. 1704. To what cause do you attribute that want of satisfaction ? — It is difficult to assign any parti- cular cause ; perhaps some things are hardly com- menced early enough. Perhaps we read too con- siderable a quantity of authors, and there is a demand for definite knowledge of various kinds which must be taken out of the time which is given to the pr.actice of composition. 1705. You think that sufficient time is not devoted for the whole work that is to be done ? — I should rather be inclined to say that the demands of the present time for definite knowledge to be forthcoming at examina- tions is so great, that there is a constant tendency to encroach on the time devoted to composition. The curtailment of verse composition would leave the largest amount of time disposable, and I apprehend that in course of years that will have to give way. 1706. Are you aware at other schools more time is devoted to composition than is devoted to it at West- minster ? — I have not had the opportunity of judging; therefore I have no means of answering that question. 1707. {Mr. Thompson.) Were you at Westminster yourself as a boy ? — No. 1708. How long back can you recollect that school ? — For the time I have been there. 1709. For 16 years ? — Yes. 1710. Do you think composition on the whole has sliown any sj'niptoms of decline ? — No, on the whole I think it has improved. 1711. Would jou say there is any improvement in the scholarship of the school during that 16 years ? — I think there has "been great improvement. 1712. Do you think the scholarship of the school, irrespective of composition, is as good as you think it could be, considering the number of boys ? — I can ■only speak from my own experience, because of the sixth form 1 know nothing ; but when the boys quit the remove for the sixth, they leave it in a condition to fit them to become veiy good scholars. They have gone through a considerable range of reading, which has been done with as much care as I can give to it. And certainly I think I may venture to say they are well grounded in Greek syntax. 1713. You think they have not declined in com- position, and that they .ire improved in general scholarship since you have belonged to the school ; would you say that their habits of application and study have improved in like proportion ? — Very greatly. 1714. It was a more idle place when you first came to it than it is now ? — Certainly. 1715. Do you think it a more diligent school now ? — I think it is very much more diligent. 1716. Yet the distinctions which are obtained in the university are not much greater than they were 16 years ago, are they greater or not ?— Perhaps they are not. 1717. {Mr. Vaughaii.) In reference to that last question, do you think, supposing that to be the case, it can be accounted for at all by the improvement in other schools ? — I think so. It is obvious there are a great number of additional schools which were not in existence formerly. 1718. Are you aware of the practice existing of which we have been informed in the course of our examination that the less industrious boys rather in- timidate the more industrious and prevent them from doing their work in the form ? — I have heard of it from the Head Master. 1719. Have you reason to think from your own personal acquaintance with the school that such is the case ? — Not in the part of the school of which I have any experience, to any extent certainly. 1720. I beg your pardon, what part of it have you 3 L 3 WEST- MINSTER. Tfe... J. Marshall. 24 June 1862. iai PUBLIC SCHOOLS COMMISSION :— MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. WEST- MINSTER. Jien. J. MarsJiall. 24 June 1862. charge of ? — The form immediately next to the sixth, it is called the remove. 1721. la it in the lower part of the school that you have heard of that practice ? — In the lower part. 1722. Have any official steps been taken to stop it ? — I tliink every step that can be taken. It is merely an exhibition of human nature on the part of boys, for of course when you appeal to human nature in one way by exciting emulation, you must take the consequences that will arise on the other hand. 1723. Do yon think it would be found in any other school in whicii competition existed?— Sudi a disposition is commonly found. 1724. But the disposition is quite distinct from ilic practice ? — No doubt, distinct from the practice. 1723. Do you not think that by raising the standard of social morality from time to time in the school you might so influence the scholars that they would not continue the evil? — Quite so. I have mentioned that the practice does not exist in my form ; and the arrangements of my house and my personal superin- tendence make it impossible that it should prevail to any extent there. I have no 4?oubt that other masters could give the same assurance with equal confidence. 1726. You have been asked with i-egarf to the time which is given to the acquisition of knowledge, as aifecting the time which can be given to com- position, do you think it acts in any other way upon the composition, and that the present tendency to acquire a knowledge of language and facts operates upon the mind in a manner calculated to improve original composition. Or, on the other hand, do you think that the increase of study in that direction at all destroys the elasticity of the mind, and makes it less fit for original composition than when the boys are rather more idle, but come a little fresher to their work ? — It is a wide question. I tliink the tendency of the present day is to make every one run very mucli in gi-ooves. No one is allowed to ap])ly himself in a direction which he most desires, because he must <;ome at last to the test of the examinations. 1727. Do you think that a few years ago, when the boys knew much less than they k'low now, j-ou might have had original composition of greater vigour from individual boys than you have at present — I exclude translations ?— I cannot answer your question ; I am hardly in a condition to jud;j;eof that, because boys of promise get through my hands in reasonably quick time. 1728. You have prizes for Latin verse, hut not for English verse? — Not for English verse. 1729. Have you never had prizes for English verse ? — ^No. 1730. You have for Latin verse ? — Yes. 1731. Do you think the improvement in com- position of original verse has been in proportion to the improvement in other attainments of tho school ? — Well, I should say not. 1732. I should like to ask you about the scholar- ships that have been recently restored, the exhibitions intended for Wales and the diocese of Lincoln, they are certain small prizes, I think, of a few pounds a year ? — Yes ; they about cover the school fees. 1733. How are they given ? — An advertisement is issued of a vacancy, and then when any candidates present themselves the best in proportion to a"-e is taken. 1734. Whether belonging to the school or not ? Y'es. 1733. It is perfectly open, then ? — Yes. 1736. Do you think that acts beneficially on tho school ? — I think they have been of very great service, but more to the individuals who have held them than to tlie school. They are helps to persons who in any case would be inclined to send their sons to the scliool ; but tho value is not sufficient to attract boys from a wide sphere, because tho mere expense of travelling two or three times a year to and from Wales would amount to a very considerable proper- tion of the exhibition itself. 1737. And the same may be said of Lincoln, although in a less degree ? — Yes. 173S. Do you get good candidates to compete for these exhibition-, ? — Very good boys some of them. 1739. Are they commonly filled up from tho localities from which tlie exhibitions are derived ? — We have a large Welsh connexion, so it is generally a Welsh boy tliat gets them. 1740. Would it Ije an advantiige if the emoluments were thrown together, and the number diminished so that there should be only two exhibitions, but double in value to wliat they are at present ? — No ; I tliink the diminution of tho number would be a decided disadvantage. I do not myself think it is desirable that a boy at school should be earning money. 1741. Is not that the case if a boy gets a founda- tion scholarship given to him ; surely it is just the same as if he got money ? — The theory is that it is for his maintenance. 1742. Still a Queen's scholar is virtually gaining money by his attainments? — He receives money's worth, but not money itself; I think that distinction is important. 1743. Do you think it wooW not be applied to a boy's education and maintenance by the parent if he obtained an exhibition of 35/. a year, or whatever its value might be? — His education is already pro- vided for under the present system ; his school fees are paid by the exhibition. 1744. IJut such school fees go a very little way as compared with the advantages of a Queen's scholar- shi|) ? — He might be living at his father's house, and in tliat case the cost of his education and main- tenance would probably be less than if he were a Queen's scholar. I think it would be better to have the number of exhibitions we have with the smaller sum of money attached to each of them. In that v.'ay I believe we gain greater advantages, and parents who desire their sons to compete can calcu- late with more certainty upon vacancies. 1 743. I was looking at the question not merely with regaitl to the service to the boy but with regard to the stimulus to scholarship, and to the attainments of the individual scholars in the school ? — I think wo have abundance of stimulus, the difficulty we e.x- perienec is that the prizes are won too easily. 1746. Would not the diminution of the number of scholarships tend to meet that very point, because I was assuming in point of fact that you were recog- nizing mediocrity by small prizes rather than recog- nizing better and higher attainments by large ones ? — It would be necessary to limit them to Wales and Lincoln, and there never would be a large field for them. 1747. (Lord Clarendoti.) Have you any point you wish to bring before us yourself? — Only this. Occasional vacancies occur in college from boys taking diflferont directions in life, and not waiting for election to the university. I think that it would be desirable that these places should be filled np by competition from the whole school, without reference to age. 1748. How is it now ? — The priE-electi are taken. 1749. Those who have obtained places in the challenge come in as a matter of course ? — There is an examination among themselves. 1750. A subsidiary challenge ? — Not exactly a challenge, but papers are given. 175). What you would suggest is the opening of the competition to the whole school and not limiting it to the pra3-electi ? — Yes, and not limiting it as to age, nor requiring, as in the case of other Queen's scholars, a residence of four years in college. 1752. That is a vacancy of course in the seniors ? — Yes, any vacancy in the year after the election on Rogation Tuesday is concluded. 1753. Supposing a boy to come in on one of these competitions that you suggest, it would be on the understanding that he should remain three years ? — He might go up for the final examination iu the same PUBLIC SCHOOLS COMMISSION: — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 455 year that he entered college, or any snbsequent one, until he was superannuated. 1754. Would there not be an objection to a boy coming when he was only 13 ? — I would rank him according to age ; but in such a competition a junior boy would have scarcely any chance of success. 1755. You would increase the number of seniors ? — Yes, and also the competition for final examination. 1756. Is there any other point upon which you wish to make a suggestion ? — There is one other point, if it would not be presumptuous on my part to trench on so general a subject, namely, in regard to the maintenance of classical learning in public schools. I do not mean to introduce any general ques- tion as to the advantages of classical learning, but simply to speak of the absolute necessity, and at the same time of the increasing difficult)', of providing it for the clergy. The emoluments of a large portion of this body are far too small to repay the heavy expense of a classical education for themselves, or to enable them to encounter it for their cliildren. The almost inevitable consequence is a decline in the learning of WEST- MINSTEK. licv. J. Murxhall. the order. The nature of the questions now raised shows how much the interests of religion would be endangered if the clergy in general were deprived of the key to the critical knowledge of the Bible, and to the prosecution of accur.ato research. The public schools appear to supply one of the most effectual 24 June 1862, means available to counteract this downward ten- deney ; and I think that they should be used to the utmost for that purpose. For all modern branches of learning there is a demand whicli will create a supply. Men's amilj'for their health and property will always give a popularity to any description of knowledge which has even a remote bearing on either. But classical knowledge, essential as it is to theological learning, is rarely remunerative in a pecuniary sense. It is necessarily expensive, from tlie length of time requisite to acquire it, and, I may add, a delicieucy in it is most difficult to make good in after-life. For these reasons, and not from any depreciation of other branches of knowledge, I tliiiik that this needs .and deserves fostering, and has a first claim on all tliehelp which the foundations of public schools can give. Tlie Rev. Lord John Thynne called in and examined. Rev. Lord J. Thytme. 1757. {Lord Clarendon.) I believe you are the sub- dean of Westminster ? — Yes ; Canon and subdcan. 1758. How long have you been subdean ? — Canon 31 years, and subdean 27 years, which latter is an annual appointment by the Dean. 1759. We h.ave received a statement on the part of the Dean and Chapter of Westminster, who h.ave furnished us with the accounts of tlie receiver-general of the Dean and Chapter, and, in the first place, I would beg to ask whether you consider that the Westminster school is a separate foundation, endowed with any special property or estates of its own ? — Westminster school has no separate endow- ment ; it is similar rather to the grammar schools attached to the cathedral churches than to Eton and Winchester. 17G0. It is charged with certain statutable allow- ances for the stipends of the masters and commons in hall, as well as an allowance for commons in livery for the 40 scholars, charged on the revenues of the Dean and Chapter ? — The revenues are charged with cer- tain stipends to the Dean and Canons, the Head Master and under master, together with money pay- ments for commons, also with liveries and commons for the 40 scholars on the foundation, which latter have always received the provisions, the cost of which varies with the price thereof. Formerly the allow- ance for breakfast consisted of bread and cheese and beer, of which few ever availed themselves. Hence arose the custom of half-boarding at one of the dames' houses, by which the cost of tuition and maintenance averaged from 80/. to 100/. yearly. They always dined in hall, except when unwell. 1761. The parents have a right to expect that under the statute their sons shall be part boarded ? — Such was the view t.aken by Dean Buckland in 1846, and in order to carry out his object he suggested tiiat a d.anie's house, for the Queen's scholars exclusivelj', should be erected, and such alterations of the com- mons in hall made as would furnish a breakfast and supper more in accordance with the present taste and habits of youths. He submitted his plan to the Prime Minister (Sir Robert Peel) for the sanction of the Crown. 1762. Tlie alterations of the building ? — The altera- tions, as well of the buildings as of the food in the hall, considering, under the peculiar circumstances of the Chapter, that the sanction of the Crown was desirable for the departure from many old customs, some of which were partially observed and some fallen into disuse, and some discharged by deputy ; that is, the Queen's scholars were accustomed to hire servants to do the menial work of the college, su|i- posedto devolve upon them by former practice, which servants were not responsible to the Dean, but to those who hired them. Such a system opened a door to great inconvenience and unrestricted expense. Dean Buckland therefore proposed that such serv.ants should be appointed by tlie Dean and responsible to him for their conduct, and that instead of fees unde- fined a certain charge should be made for those ser- vants. He obtained from Sir Robert Peel, in his official capacity. Her ^Majesty's approval, and likewise a liberal contribution towards the construction of the necessary accommodation, which was paid by the Secretary of State for the Home Department. All the arrangements and buildings were completed under the direction of Dean Buckland, who guaranteed that the cost of each Queen's scholar should thereby be" reduced from 80/. or 100/. to 45/. 1763. That the annual cost of each scholar should not exceed 45/. ? — -Yes, of each Queen's scholar. Upon the illness of Dean Buckland, the discharge of his duties devolved upon me as subdean. I reduced some of the charges. A subsequent reduction of five guineas has been made by the discharge of the debt upon the new buildings. This debt arose from the insufficiency of the subscriptions to meet the cost. Dean Buckland considered that it was not unreason- able that they who enjoyed the benefit of these build- ings should contribute towards the cost of them, especially as, by reason of their erection, the annual expense of a Queen's scholar was reduced below half of what it formerly was, the five guineas being in- cluded in the 45/. The debt is now cleared off, and the cost of each Queen's scholar is now reduced below 35/. a year. 1764. The parents of the boys having paid for the interest of the money raised until it was paid off? — Yes ; the money that was r.aised to provide for the deficiency w.as thus paid off. 1765. The Dean and Chapter, then, have not con- tributed anything ? — 'J'hc new arrangements cost the Dean and Chapter 700/. 1766. bo vou know what the whole cost was ? — Between 4,000/. and 5,000/. Thenceforward the Queen's sehoinrs have had all their meals in hall, and the use of tht sanatorium when invalided. Their clothes are taken care of by an efficient person as matron, who provides proper servants under her. 1767. That is the existing state of things now ? — Yes ; with permission I will read the circular issued by Dean Buckland. 1768. If you please? — " The Dean and Chapter of Westminster take this method of making known to the old Westminsters that they have resolved to increase the comfort and diminish the expenses of the Queen's scholars in the following manner : — • " 1st. By providing all their meals at the cost of the establishment. 3L4 45(1 PUBLIC SCHOOLS COMMISSION :— MIXUTE3 OF EVIDENCE. AVKST- MIXSTER. T!et\ Lord J. Thijnne. £t June 1862. " 2nd. By fittinj; up large and convenient rooms for study, &c., in the entire cloister under the dor- mitory. " 3r(l. By building .a sanatorium at the end of the dormitory, with rooms for a resident matron. " 4tli. By refitting the present lavatory and neces- sary offices with improved liydraulic apparatus. "oth. By undertaking that the necessary charges on the Queen's scholars shall not exceed 43/. per annum, exclusive of hoolis, clothes, washing, and jour- neys and the lenving fees. " If the subscriptions should be adequate to the costs of tlie contemplated i-mprovements, which are estimated at from three to four thousand pounds. "6th. It is intended in no degree to diminish the present expenses of the Dean and Chapter, and that all reduction of cliarges that may arise from better management shall be for tlic benefit o-f ti;e Queen's scholars." 1769. The whole reduction' would be what ? — The ■whole reduction that may be made by any Ijetter management of these matters shall lie for their benefit, and they have already experienced this by the reduc- tion of tlic charges from 45/. to under 35/. " The Dean and Chapter Laving ascertained that the present dormitory was built more than a century ago by contributions from persons educated at West- minster, in addition to large grants from the Cvown, and from Parliament, have thought it reasonable to appeal again to the Crown and to the old Westmin- sters of the present time for their aid, to render more accordant with modern manners the building which has hitherto, with much inconvenience, been applied to the manifold purposes of stuty and dormitory. (Signed) " William Buckland, " June 24, 1846. " Dean." 1770. Then the present charge to the parents of Queen's scholars is 34/. odd ? — Yes. 1771. Of which 17 guineas are paid for tuition ? — i'es. . 1772. But is it not contemplated by the statute? that the education should be gratuitous ? — Probably such was in Dr. Bill's mind v/lien he prepared the statutes ; but not only were they never confirmed, but the leading principle as affecting the election of scholars was departed from in tlio reign of the Sovereign by whom tiie school was founded. 1773. {Loid Ly(telton.\ Is that quite certain? — I have never heard it doubted. The statutes were drawn up by Dr. Bill, who was also Master of Trinity College, Cambridge. Me was Dean only one year. Dean Goodwin succeeded him. It is represented that he applied twice to have them confirmed, but in vain. I think a conclusion m.ay fairly be drawn by reference to the Westminster "Alumni," published by Mr. Phillimore, which records the several elections to the universities. It there appears that in 1566 the eldest son of Sir Nicholas Bacon, Lord Keeper of the Great Seal, was a scholar and elected to Christ Church, Oxford, notwithstanding his ineligibilty according to the proposed statutes, by reason of his being heir to 10/. a year. This could not have occurred if the statutes had been in force. It also appears to me to account for the Sovereign's refusal to confirm the statutes. It may be added that the privilege of nomination, proposed to be given to tVie Dean and Canons and the Head and Under Master, has long been in obeyance. 1774. {Lord Clarendon.) That circumstance was never inquired into. Has there ever been any care taken l)y the Dean and Chapter about the persons elected being tlio sons of their own tenants ? — The restrictions have never been regarded. The Sovereign is visitor, and has acted on occasions. AVhen I acted for Dean Buckland, an alteration in the mode of election to the Universities was much desired, and 1 presented a memorial to the Prime Minister (the Earl of Aberdeen), to which he signified his approval, but the application failed by reason of a legal diffi- culty. 1775. What was the nature of the proposed altera- tion ? — I can best describe tlic alteration by stating what has been recommended by tlie University Com- missions and been adopted. Tlie elections from West- minster to Clirist Cliurch remain as before. Exhi- bitions at Trinity College, Cambridge, have been substituted for scholarships, and those elected to such exhibitions are not ineligible to scholarsliips also, if their attainments qualify them, when resident at Trinity College. Tlie alteration is very advantageous to Westminster, and we are much indebted to the Master and Fellows of Trinity for the alteration. 1776. By what means has the alteration been car- ried out ? — Under the Acts ccaistiJtuting the two Uni- versity Commissions. 1777. But with respect to the tuition fees no alteration was made ? — Fees for tuition' have been paid by the Queen's scholars from time immemorial ; if admissions to the school liad been restricted as proposed by the statutes, probably the education would i>ave been eleemosynary. But we find that with the opening of the school to the sons of persons of fortune, the custom of compensating the Head Master by fees prevailed. 1778. {Lord Devon.) In 1687 the Queen's scholars paid Busby four guineas a year, with a compliment of half a guinea to the under master ? — Dr. Busby was appointed in 1636. 1779. Then the answer refers to 1684? — Your Lordship quotes from some published document of personal account. 1780. Taken from the books of the old Queen's scholars, which furnish the alumni. That is the only evidence you have ? — I am not aware of other evidence. 1781. {Lord Lyttelfon.) I understand yon to mean that tlie whole of the statutes have no legal force ; that they are all founded simply upon usage ? — When I had the honour of an interview with the Solicitor- General (Sir Richard Bethell) on the question of the Queen's power in relating to the statutes, I under- stood him to say, " Though your statutes have not " been confirmed you must abide by custom in so far " as they have been observed." 1782. {Mr. Vaughan.) He considered them as a proof of custom ?— Of custom. 1783. Do I understand you to say that he took these statutes as part of what your usages were at the time? — I understood him to say that custom ruled our observance. My remark was that certain portions of the statutes had never been observed. His reply, to the best of my i-ecolleetion, was, what has been your custom becomes your statutes. 1734. {J^ord Lyttelton.) In default of their being formally confirmed liy the Crown ? — Yes. 1785. {T^ord Clarendon.) Although these 17 guineas are a large charge on the parents of the boys, it has not been considered suflficient by the masters to secure for the scholars the education they receive at present, unless the emoluments of the masters derived from the other boys were increased, and there has been a representation made for that increase ? — Such has been the representation of the present master. We nrver heanl of it before. 1786. Not of the insufficient remuneration ? — This is the first application in my recollection ; we replied that we would communicate with the Ecclesiastical Commission on the subject, and ascertain whether they would consent to an increase of payment to the Head Master in respect to the Queen's scholars out of the capitular revenues ; and on representing to them that more assistant masters were now required than for- merly, and that the receipts of the Head Master from the Queen's scholars were not equal to those from the town boys, they sanctioned an additional payment from the ca|)itular revenues of seven guineas for each Queen's scholar. 1787. The payment by the other scholars was 25/. a year ?— Yes. 1788. And that addition, whicli was made by Dr. Liddell, of seven guineas a year is now in force ? — 1 do not understand the question. I do not kaow that Pl'BLIC SCHOOLS COMMISSION: — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 457 any :nlilitioii was niiido 1>y Dr. Liddcll to the Qiiocn's schclars. 1789. You nlluik'd in the previous answer to an iuerease of p:i_vmont to tlu> Plead Master in respect to flie Queen's scliolars out of the capitular revenues, and you say that lliey sanctioned an additional payment of seven guineas for each Queen's scholar? — Yes; and that is what I thiuk you have mistaken when yo\i ask whether the seven guineas addition made by Dr. Liddell is now in force. Dr. LiddcU had notliing to do with it at all. 1790. (Lord Dcvo/i.) The Ecclesiastiivil Commis- sioners sanctioned an addition of 25!., did they not? — No ; the Ecclesiastical Comraissionei's sanctioned an addition of 7/. or seven guiueas, I do not know which it was. That is to say, that they sanctioned the payment, as I have stated, of 7/. from the capitular revenues in respect to eacli Queen's scholar, because the Queen's scholars were paying to the Head Master 17 "uineas, and the town boys in the same form of the schdol were paying 25 guineas. The argument the masters used was, that if it was not for the 25 guineas the town hoys paid they could not give the advantage of additional masters, and they asked whether it was right that the town boys should be called upon to pay for advantages to be obtained by the Queen's scholars; and on that representation we applied to the Ecclesi- astical Commissioners to take 280?. out of the capitular revenues to pay for those boys. 1791. It is something near 25/. a year, witliin a few shillings ? — I believe so. 1792. That is an increased charge on the revenues ? — Yes. It could not be done without the concurrence of the Ecclesiastical Commissioners. 1793. So that with reference to llic school, and to any alterations or novelty which involves expense for the improscment or the bettering of the school, you would say that you are here as representing the Ecclesiastical Connnissioners ? — I do not represent the Ecclesiastical Commissioners, but simj)ly refer to the terms by which we are bound to deal witli them. 1794. That is, the Dean and Chapter can consent to no outlay without the consent of the Ecclesiastical Commissioners ? — Wc are bound by a definite rule established between the Ecclesiastical Commissioners and the Chapters of the cathedral churches generally, which may be stated by the words of the concordat, which was mutually accepted by the Ecclesiastical Commissioners and a meeting of the representatives of 11 or 12 Chapters, of which meeting I was chair- man. We were to " continue to manage our chapter " property, giving over to them such portions as '• would have been paid to the canonries suspended, " provided that wo limited our voluntary beiiefactious '• to the promotion of religious and charitable objects " in those places in which our property is situated, " or where our position as a cathedral church should " demand our subscription." 1795. It seems to me that the increase you have made in the tuition fees would have come within the terms of that concordat. Was it necessary for you to obtain their sanction ? — Certainly such an expen- diture was beyond the estimate of the expense of the school as returned to the Commission appointed in 1832, by which we are bound in respect to the cost of the school. 179G. {Lord Lyttelton.) The end of 1834, 1 believe. You are not speaking of the Ecclesiastical Commis- sion now existing, but previous to tliat there was an Ecclesiastical Commission of Inquiry, and it was then that returns were required, before the present Ecclesiastical Commission was constituted ? — I refer to the first Commission of Inquiry by which returns ■were required previous to the constitution of the Ecclesiastical Commission. Upon these returns the settlement of revenues was based which have regu- lated the orders of the Ecclesiastical Commissioners. 1797. {Lord Clarendon.) There are other items in the charge to parents ? — Y'es, there are other items besides the school fees. 1798. {Lord Lyttelton.) With respect to the estate, 1. does not the school and the site on which it stands belong to the school estate ? — There is no separate cst.tte belonging to the school. 1799. With regard to the future, you would not think yourselves justified in making any outlay ou the school without the consent of tlie Ecclesiastical Commission ? — Not in respect to pecuniary payments. 1800. {I^ord Clarendon.) Are the added servants and the medical attendant's charges contemplated by the statutes ? — No. 1801. Yon would not think it desirable (although it is not in your power) to abate those charges still further ? — The charge for servants to do the duty required of, and formerly discharged by, the Cineeu's scholars partakes of the nature of an arrangement for their accommodation. The medical attendance is much for their advantage, and being compounded for, saves the parents much expense. 1802. Those are the services for wliich they novr pay ? — They are for services which their predecessors performed, or were exjiectcd to perform. 1803. In order to relieve themselves from personal service ? — Yes. 1804. Then did they pay for the medical atten- dant they used to have ? — Formerly the dame sent for the physician, whose account was sent in to the parents ; when the illness was serious and the patient could be removed, he was usually' sent home. The next article charged is " firing," which arose from the ancient system of warming the dormitory by open fire-places : a certain allowance of billets was delivered, and whatever more the boys required was provided by themselves. The system gave rise to much inconvenience and some tyranny. Hot-water pipes were introduced in order to remove this in- convenience, and communicate warmth generally throughout the dormitory. And as the boys had heretolbre paid for what was partial and imperfect, Dean Buckland considered that they ought to con- tribute something (though it were much less) tOAvards the more complete and general warmth of the dormi- tory and additional rooms. After his illness I reduced this charge from '2\ guineas to 1 guinea a 3'ear. 1805. Was that for each ? — Yes. In respect to the laundress, to which your Lordship alludes, her duty related only to the washing of the linen used in the church, and table cloths used in college hall. 1806. (il/r. 'J7iompson.) How did they manage the washing ? — The dame, with whom they half-boaided, arranged this matter. 1807. {Lord Devon.) Under the arrangements with the Ecclesiastical Con\missioners which you speak of, by which you arc enabled to spend a sum of money necessary ibr educational and ecclesiastical purposes, would the promotion and carrying out of such im- provements in the buildings either in Great or Little Dean's Y'ard as may be necessary, or which would be in your judgment necessary, be included ? — The maintenance of the existing buildings is borne by the fabric fund. 1808. Docs the fabric fund necessarily come under the supervision of, and is subject to the conli-ol of the Ecclesiastical Commissioners ? — No. 1809. Have you over the fabric fund an unlimited control ? — We control the expenditure of it, but the purposes to which it can be applied are of course limited. 1810. So that you m-ay spend 3,0007. or 4,000/. a year ? — We may expend whatever we have in that fund, but the whole fabric of the Abbey and its appendages present a heavy demand upon it. 1811. Is the fabric fund a portion of the general income ? — Y'es. 1812. Who is to decide wiiat portion of the general income is to be appropriated to tliat purpose ? — That is regulated by hmg .standing custom ; a definite por- tion of the capitular revenues is appropriated to the fabric fund before any division is made ; its applica- tion is matter for subsequent consideration ; if neces- sary, it is expended, if not, it accumulates. 1813. That accounts for the fact, that a certain sura 3M WEST- MINSTER. Jiev. Lord J. Thynne. 24 June 1862. 458 PUBLIC SCHOOLS COMMISSION : — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. WEST- MINSTER. Jiev. Lord J. Thynne. 24 June 1862. of money is set by every year ? — A certain proportion, not a fixed sum, is so set apart. 1814. With regard to the new boarding house in Great Dean's Yard ; was that built by the Chapter ? Yes, with the special permission of the Eccle- siastical Commissioners, on a statement made by the surveyor, that the expenditure would be remunerative. The land is pnrt of the capitular estate, and we could not equitably or legally apply the revenues of the Chapter in a building speculation without the con- currence of the Ecclesiastical Commissioners. 1815. Not under your concordat ?_Neithcr under our concordat nor under the legal claims of the Eccle- siastical Commissioners. 1816. vSuppose the case should arise in which there were a number of additional applicants for admission to the school, and that the number of oppidans was so'laro-e as to render the accommodation which is at present provided insufficient, would the Chapter be in a position to build a new boarding house out of their funds ? — No. 1817. Not without the consent of the Ecclesiastical Commissioners ? — No. 1818. I am not aware whether you know it, but perhaps I can recall it to your recollection. You may have heard that the centre house on the terrace was a boarding house the same as Mr. James's. Did not the person who took the house get permission from the Master to open it as a boarding house ? — It was before .1 was conuected with 'Westrainster. I presume that he opened the house on speculation, and had the Head Master's sanction. 1819. Just let me ask you another question. In the supposed case of a boarding house being required would the necessary authority be obtained on ap- plication from you to the Ecclesiastical Commis- sioners, and on a certificate tiiat in the event of the house being built it would produce an adequate rent ? — It would be necessary for any person desirous of opening a house for boarders, to obtain suitable pre- mises, and to get the Head Master's approval and recommendation. 1820. I was rather referring to the probability of building on the vacant space in Great Dean's Yard, and I wish to know whether the Chapter would follow the precedent they have now set by building a house in order to avail themselves of tliat space should the demand arise. Would the^^ apply to the Ecclesiastical Commissioners, and would the Ecclesi- astical Commissioners give them power to build, on the guarantee that a certain portion of revenue should come from the house ? — There is no vacant space. 1821. Then they pay the money for building the new house ? — The Ecclesiastical Commissioners pay the contractor by instalments and take the receipts. 1822. {Mr. Thompson.^ It is an investment of theirs, a private investment? — It is an investment sanc- tioned by them. 1823. {Lord Devon.) I think you mentioned just now that the existing boarding houses are not held im- mediately under you, but are rented by the present occupier from the lessee ? — Yes. 1824. That has been the practice that has obtained ■with you, has it not ? — Yes, ever since my recol- lection ; and as I believe, always. 1 825. I believe it has been the ease that one, if not two leases have been renewed within the last few years ?- — Thej' have been renewed from time to time. 1826. Would it not be better that instead of having any indivitgha».) Are you able to state how many boys exercise this power in college, that of compelling the juniors to do all these duties ? — All * Somp statements were made here and in other parts of the evidence respecting an individual case, wiiich it does not api)ear to us to b:^ necessary or fair to j)ublish, as some of the parties principally concerned could not be examined, 3P WEST- JIINSjI'EK. W. Meyrici, 28 Jan. 1863. 482 PUBLIC SCHOOLS COMMISSION : — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. WEST- MINSTER. ]V. Meyrirk, Exq. .28 Jan. 1863. the seniors, the two upper elections, and in a modified degree, the second election. 2529. Do you know how many that amounts to at the present "time ? — No, I do not. I should think about 30 in the three elections. 2530. And how many boys have le respond to those calls?— About 10, I think. There are four elections, the junior year, the second election, the third election, as they call it, and the seniors. It is the two ii])per elections whicli call in this way ; but the second electii)n work the juniors do. 2531. I wish to appreciate the amount of harass it would be to any individual boy on the evening on ■which lie was a fag, and of course that must vei'y -much depend on the number of persons that have the power of " calling " upon it ? — Quite so. 2532. Is there no prescribed order in which boys have to take these duties ? — I have no doubt there is, because my boy getting it three times a fortnight, no doubt others would get it much in the same kind of way. It came round to his turn in some prescribed mode. In answering questions of detail I may make a mistake as to the number of boys and I may in- advertently make a mistake as to the number that may be " call ". 2533. {Lord Devon.) Were you a public school man yourself? — I was not. 2534. You say quite correctly that there are four elections in college ; the whole number being 40, would it ever happen that there were more than ten boj^s in an election ? — Yes. There were, I think, 11, if not more, this last election when my boy got in. 2535. It would be only the two senior elections who would have the power of fagging ? — All three elections fag the juniors. 2536. What tlien would be tlie total number who would have the power of fagging the juniors ? — It would be about 30. 2537. {Mr. Thompson.) Thirty masters and 10 servants ? — Yes ; 30 masters. The second election are the task masters, that is, they are to see that the duties are performed. 2538. {3Ir. Vaughan.) With regard to some of the things you mention, for instance, walking under the master's window, and touching the table, I suppose the under boys are so well acquainted with these rules, that a boy must be contumacious who in- fringes them ? — Yes, certainly, as regards the touching of the drawer and the table. But just see, the consequence of the other thing which may go much further. A boy may be sent on an errand by a senior where time is of the very essence of the whole con- cern, and being allowed to go the three strides by these windows, instead of going a great way round, would' very likely save him from a licking. With reference to the drawer, he not only has to touch it every time he goes up, but he must put in something, such as a quartern, and he is licked if the quartern is not always clean. 2539. {Lord Devon.) What would be the alter- native of going under the master's window, would it be to go on the other side of Dean's Yard ? — It depends on where he wanted to to go. 2540. If he went to College Street it would be no grievance ? — I rm not sufficiently acquainted with the locality to say. 2541. From any information you have received or any inquiries you have made, are_you able to saj' how far the system of bullying which you describe is applicable to one year, or whether it is j^art of the system of the school ? — It is part of the system. 2542. You do not think that it may be atributable in a great measure to the circumstance that there may in any particular year be an ill-conditioned set of seniors ? — No doubt it is better and worse ; at least, my boy saj's he thinks it is ratjier bad this year. Anotlier fellow speaking of it said, " No ; it is only " this, that we alwa3's expect the incoming ones to " be better than those going out. So and so is perhaps " pretty tidy now, but when they get into unlimited " power, they will be just as bad." There are one or two most cruel fellows among the seniors, but I do not wish to mention any names ; and there are two or three as good fellows as ever lived ; my boy's two seniors, for instance, and . 2543. Have you ever had any conversation on the subject with old Westminsters, men who were them- selves in college six or eight or 10 years ago ? — Yes ; longer ago than that. I had a conversation several times with a gentleman who was in Westminster, but not in college. He spoke of the frightful things that occurred there in his time. Well then, some of the seniors said to my boy, "Ah, Meyrick, I pity you, " going into the College." 2544. {Sir S. Northcute.) Was that some of the senior boys in college themselves ? — Yes. 2545. {Mr. Tivisleton.) Will you go back to aque.s- Sec36a«.i tion which was previously asked you, as to the prac- tical inconvenience arising to a boy from not being allowed to leave the schoolroom without the permis- sion of some of the bo3's ? — I am very glad you ask me, because it has refreshed my memory. I men- tioned the case of illness, and the permission of the master, as not being a sufficient justification for leaving. I will go further. In the case of an order — and this will answer your question as to practical inconvenience — in case a master orders a boy up school to say his lesson, and it often happens that he is ordered to say a lesson after the scliool may have sepai-ated, and so on, he dare not go until he has asked per- mission from the monitor, and from, I think, the senior, and he has to find them ; and it often happens he cannot find them in time to get up in school to prevent an imposition, or something of the kind, from the master, so as to comply with the master's order ; so completely is the college under the control of the boys. 2546. My question rather applied to this point ; is the leave ever refused, by the other boys, to a boy who wishes to leave the schoolroom ? — I do not know. I should think not often ; I would not undertake to say never. I am not able to say, but I have not been told that it is arbitrarily exercised. 2547. What is the idea of the upper boys in re- quiring their consent to a lower boy's leaving the school-room ? — >Simply that it is to keep up the rules of the school. My boy has been threatened over and over again by a fellow below him. There is the mischief again, that this tyranny is exercised by boj's not senior to my boy in position in the school, l)Ut much lower, — to use Mr. Scott's words, " Contempti- " ble in intellect compared to your boy ;" and that fellow will come and say, " Meyrick, I let you ofl" " this time, but I will give you a precious good " licking the next time it occurs." 2548. {Mr. Vaughan.) Do you think it might ever come to this, that a boj' would in this way wreak a spite against another for passing him in the school. I understand from you that a junior in the school, if senior in college, might fag a boy senior in the school if junior in college ? — Yes. 2549. He must be junior in school when he comes into college, must he not? — No. 2550. Then he must have passed his senior in the school in order to have become senior to him ? — No. My boy makes a vacancy and a boy gets in now who was not able by his merits to get in on the election. My boy going away, another boy goes in. He has not got in by his merits. He may be in the fourth or fifth form, my boy being in the upper remove. 2551. Do I understand that a boy comes into college not upon his merits ? — He may be very low in the school and yet get into college. 2552. {Mr. Thompson.) All the boys do not neces- sarily stand out for college ? — No ; and there arc boys now in this second election who were below my boy ; one three or four forms below him, and he got in by a mere accident, from a vacancy. 2553. Do you mean that they take the best boys they can get but they cannot get the best boys ? — Tliey do not all go ; but as a rule the best of those who start get in. PUBLIC SCHOOLS COMMISSION : — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 483 2554. (Mr. Vaughan.) Ts it the case that the boys do not come into college I'l'om the same parts of the school? — Yes, from llie same parts of the school. They are all town hoys for 12 months. 2555. I mean from tlie s;inie form in school ? — From any form. It is done by a system of challenges. 255(). I am aware of that ; but I want to know how it is that the merits of a boy in the lower form can be comi^areil with the merits of a boy in the upper form ? — They are not compared. For instance, we will say there are ten vacancies. There might only be ten candidates, and whatever their merits might be, they would then get in. It might be that there were twenty candidates and the highest boy might not be higher than the fifth form, and the ten best of those would get in. The next year, we will say, my boy goes in, who is in the upper remove. He is fiigged or tyrannised over b}' these boys, who are perhaps remaining below him : and time alone drags them up to the top of the school. 2557. Yon say at some elections boys get in ft-om some parts of the school, and at other elections from other parts ? — Yes, from all parts. 2558. At the same election ? — Yes, they are from all forms. 2559. But do you mean to say it will ever happen that a boy in one of the lower forms will beat the boys in the upper form and get in in that way ? — Yes, it is so. Of course as a general rule their standing will pi-evail in those examinations ; but the examina- tion is so special that it does so happen, because they are arranged theoretically, or on paper, according to their standing in the forms, and any of the whole lot may get in if they can. 2560. By lieating those above them ? — Yes. 2561. Supposing a boy in a lower form beat all the candidates in a form above him, and so got into college, would his place in that lower form remain just where it was before ? — Yes. 2562. So that he would not pass into a higher form by virtue of beating the boys of higher forms ? — !No ; not by virtue of that. No doubt his merits ■would be looked to, and unless it were by a special ability as regarded that particular mode of examina- tion by challenges, which is quite possible, of course he would very soon get higher up, but he would not as a consequence, be moved from his form at all. 2563. {Sir S. Northcotr.) Supposing a very clever boy who had to go to Westminster at this moment, he might very possibly be placed above boys who are already in college, might he not ? — Yes. 2564. Then the next year he might stand out for college and get it. He would still in school rank be above those boys, but in college rank would be below them ? — Yes. 2565. {Lord Devon.) With reference to the asking leave to go out of school. Do I correctly apprehend that the complaint you make is this — that supposing there to be a class before the masters saying a lesson, that in that class there will be, perhaps, six town bo3's and six collegers, and that one of the collegers, from -whatever reason, asks leave to go down to school. In my time that leave used generally to be asked for by holding up the hand, but by whatever mode it is asked the master gives it. Before he can act upon that and go down to school, has he to go across to the monitors' bench to ask their leave also ? — Yes ; he has to ask four monitors, his own immediate senior, and the "lag" of the second election. 2566. {Mr. Twisleton.) Do I understand you that if a boy wishes to leave the schoolroom for the ordinary necessities of nature, he cannot do so, although he has obtained the leave of the master, unless he has likewise obtained the leave of these monitors ; is that so ? — No, I believe for that purpose only, the master's permission is sufficient. 2567. {Lord Clarendon.) Are you aware whether there are many other boys who have suffered, both in mind and body, in the same way that your son has suffered. Do you think that the system has made a peculiar impression on him, or do you think that WEST- MINSTER. W. Meyrirli, Esq. 28 Jan. 1863. there are others in the same plight as himself? — Yes, but [ dare not mention names or give the slightest particulars. 2568. As far as you are aware, do boys leave college for these reasons every year, otherwise there must be something peculiarly bad in this year ? — No, it is the same as every year. '■ 2569. (3Ir. Twisleton.) It would depend on the boy's father to a certain extent, would it not ? — Very much indeed ; and upon a variety of contingencies very easily understood ; it is a very serious step, which few would venture to take ; for instance, if art other things combined to enable or induce a parent to do it, still if any one were in a position to say a single word against his boy, the parent would be afraid to make a stir ; even when they cannot say that word, it is bad enough to have to do it. 2570. {I^ord Lyttelton.) As I understand, he was about to come into the exercise of these powers him- self? — No; this is his junior year. ' 2571. How long would he have to continue ? — For twelve months altogether ; then he would have been in the second election, and would have been still liable to the stick being broken across his back, if he had not been a slave driver to these juniors. The third election did not interfere very much I think. They did not look after the juniors. 2572. {Mr. Vanghan.) Is the system that goes on in college known generally in the school out of the college ? — Not altogether. It is very dilRcult to get at it. I did not kuow it, and don't know the whole, even now. Do you think it at all acts thi-ough the knowledge of the rest of the school to prevent can- didates trying for college ? — Yes. I knew a lad very well who was there, he got terribly knocked aliout. We heard that he used to come home with handfuUs of his hair pulled out, and so on. My boy was a working fellow, and jiopular with the boys, and we ho])cd that the case I have referred to was an ex- ceptional case, and that my boy would pull through. We hoped that, as we had heard a groat deal about it, and that it was very bad. 2573. Then you yourself looked forward with some little apprehension to it ? — I did a little, but my boy knew that wo were very anxious. He knew that we thought it of some importance that he should get in, and he never told us, and he would have gone back now, but he said to his mother the other day, " I will " go back if you wish it ; I will go through it, but I " am not the boy I was. I used to take an interest " in my work, and worked night and day, but I can- " not work now, I have no interest in it. I am " going back to Westminster to rot." Upon that I made n]i my mind he should not go back, and I wrote that to Mr. Scott. The boy would have been mined. We all know as to work, if we once get off the groove, there is a difficulty in getting into it again. I know in my own business, if I am idle or slack at work, how difficult it is to buckle to, after three or four days, even. It sends the boys to cribs. It in- duces all sorts of .shifts, and demoralizes them in every way. 2574. {Lord Devon.) Do I understand that your See 3526, riwa. boy is one who was disposed to mix in the cricket and the boats, and in the ordinary athletic games of the school, and not one who might be looked upon as a spooney ? — If you saw him, it would answer your question directlj^ 2575. {Lord Lyttelton.) He was in the eleven ? — Yes, and when they played against Christ Church, which was the first match he played in, after being put in the eleven, he made, I believe, the largest score of any on the side, Westminster side. They had some athletic sports the year before last. He started for several things, and won them all. When Mr. Marshall gave away the prizes, he said, " Well, " Meyrick, I am glad to see you are as clever with " your heels as with your head." This year he also ■ started, but you might as well have started an old coach-horse. He won everything he started foi- be- fore. He was a most popular boy, and so amenable 3 P 2 484 PUBLIC SCHOOLS COMMISSION: — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. WEST illNSTER. W. yieyrich, Esq. to authority. It is liis prevailing feature ; he was always so obedient to all in authority over him. That is the way in which Mr. Westmacott, who saw him yesterday, speaks of him, and the way in which Mr. Newland, his former master, spoke of him ; and 28 Jan. 1863. I liave before mentioned the way in which Mr. James — wrote about him ; and the way in which INIr. Scott, in his letter to me only the other daj', speaks of him. 2576. {Lord Clarendon.) Perhaps it would be agreeable to you, and it might be useful to us in any notice that we shall think it our duty to take of the information that you have been kind enough to give us, that we should see your son ? — I should be most happy, because I am sure he will tell his story intinitely better than I can. 2577. {Lord Lyttcltoiu) Do you object to his name being known ? — Not the least. I am sure I am exceedingly obliged to you, my Lords and gentle- men, for the courtesy with which you have listened to me, for I felt that in coming here, perhaps I should be looked upon half as a criminal, at any rate as a public nuisance. I am not a redresser of grievances. It is not my vocation at all, but I feel this strongly, and I am sure that I am trying to do a very great service. It would be lamentable if such a system as this were to be passed over, now that there appears to be something like an oppor- tunity of altering it. 2578. {Lord Clarendon.) I think you have done a public service, and we should have all been sorry, if, possessing this information, and knowiug that such an inquiry as this was being held, you had not communicated it to us ? — I did make an attempt some four or five months ago, but it was in such a way that the Commissioners could not move in it. As long as my lioy was there I could not do so either, openly. I was kindly and courteously treated here ; and when asked for my name I said " I dare not give " it you, I have a boy at a public school," but I felt the difficulty there was in moving in the matter, so long as my boy remained at Westminster. 2579. {Mr. Vaughan.) I wish to ask you whether, as a matter of fact, acting solely from your impres- sion as to the evil of this system, you have sacri- ficed the benefits of an almost gratuitous educa- tion for your son for many years ? — I have sacrificed a great deal in that way which I had a right to ex- pect to reap the benefits of ; but the education and other things in college cost much more than they ought to do, I am sure ; for instance, I am charged in the bill for the last half year, 4/. 4*. for servants ; now, that lor 40 boys would give for the year a sum of 336/. for servants, but they keep none, or next to none. I have sent him to King's College, and he will do well, I am satisfied. He is not a wonder by any means, but he is the most conscientious worker, the most conscientious fellow that ever lived, but it has been a most grievous thing to us, because he was pretty certain to get a studentship at Christ Church or a scholarship at Trinity. He could not have failed, he was so high up, and could do so well, and his conduct was so first-rate. 2580. {I^ord Clarendon.) I understand from you that to-day you intend to put Mr. Scott in possession of all the information that you have given us ? Everything. 2581. {Sir S. Northcote.) There was another question I wished to put. Are you aware whether any of the monitors have remonstrated with other monitors for illusing boys ? — I should think it is unheard of. It is the system of the school, and that is where I may say my boy would have got into Irouljle. He never would have carried that out. 2582. {Mr. Vaughan.) Do you think that boys who suifer from tliis system of fagging that you have been describing receive any counter benefit in the way of protection ? — Not the most remote. 2583. As against other boys who would bully them ? — Not the most remote. I am quite aware that gene- rally in other schools seniors are supposed to look after the fags and protect them. There is not the least in the world of that. There is nothing to counterbalance it, in any way whatever. 2584. {Lord Clarendon.) Your son is at King's College, and therefore perhaps one day may be more convenient to him than another. We could either see him to-morrow or next Tuesday ? — Any day ; the sooner the better. I will write to Dr. Jelf to let him come directly. He shall be here to-morrow. 2585. {Mr. Thompson.) Is your son at King's College school, or is he at the college ? — At the collese. Victoria Street, 29th January 1863. PRESENT ; Earl of Clarendon. Earl of Devon. Lord Lyttelton. Sir Stafford Noktiicote, Bart. Hon. Edward Twisleton. Rev. W. H. Thompson. H. Halford Vaugh.^n, Esq. The earl OF CLARENDON in the Chair. Mr. W. S. Meyiich. 29 Jan. 1863. Mr. W. S. Meyrick called in and examined. 2586. {Lord Clarendon.) When did you go to Westminster school ? — I went after Christmas, two years ago. 2587. After Christmas 1860 ? — Yes, early in Janu- ary 1861. 2588. You were a town boy for the first year, were you not ? — Yes, for rather more. 25S9. When did you go into college ? — About a year and a half after I first went to Westminster — after the Whitsuntide holidays. 2590. You went after the Whitsuntide holidays in 1862 ?— Yes. 2591. Therefore you were in the college in all about five months ? — Yes. 2592. You have left Westminster ?— Yes. 2593. And you are now at King's College ? — Yes. 2594. Your father removed you from Westminster in consequence of the ill-treatment that you received there, and that the system made you unhappy ? — Yes ; it was the system, and not any specific acts of ill-treatment. 2595. Will you tell us what was the system of which you had to complain. In the first place, you had better tell us the duties that devolved on you to perform. We will go through one day. I suppose one day was like another ? — Yes, to a great extent. 2596. Will you go through one day, and tell us the duties you had to perform, who was entitled to call upon you to perform them, and what was the con- sequence of not performing them ? — With your lord- ship's permission, I will begin on Sunday night, and take Monday. You had to be in at a quarter to 10. PUBLIC SCHOOLS COMMISSION : — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 485 ■3 3577. 2597. At nijilit ?— Yes. Prayers bcg.in at 10 niiiuitt's to 10. If it devolved on me to be " call " in the luoriiiiig, 1 had to go round at 10 minutes to 10, just before prayers, and ask all the seniors what time they would be called in the morning. 2598. How many seniors were there ? — Twelve. The general time in the winter was half-past 4 ; sometimes it was 4 o'clock. Then, if I had to call a senior at 4 o'clock, by strict rule I had to be up at 3 o'clock ; but if it were only a third election or any other election that wanted to be called at 4, — if there was no senior to be called at that time, I need not call the third election, but I generally used to get up at half-past 3, or as near that time as I could wake. 2599. ^^'hy were you obliged to get up at half-past 3 to call him at 4 ? — Because I h.ad to light two fires, and to get four kettlesfuU of boiling water. 2600. {Lord Li/ftelton.) How did yon get called yourself? — I used to wake from mere terror after a short time ; and after that we got an alarum. Then it was easy enough to wake. 2601. And did those boys get up who were called ? — Generally speaking those seniors who wanted to be called so ■very earl}- could hardly be got out just iu time to rush into the school -before eight o'clock. 2602. Had you to call him over again ? — Yes. We had to call him two or three times at stated periods. 2603. Till they got up ? — Yes. He generally would say, "Call me well at 4, and then every half-hour afterwards till 8 o'clock." 2604. {Mr. Vaughan.) You were not held respon- sible by them for their not getting up, were you ? — Very often. It just depends on the character of the boy. If he chose to enforce it, he would \ery often hold you responsilile for it. 2605. {Mr. Twislctoii.) For his not getting up himself? — Yes. He would say you did not drag him out or ])idl him out of bed enough ; and if you did pull him out of bed, he generally threw a boot at your head. 2606. {Sir S. Nbrfhcote.) Did boys ever get up at 4 o'clocl* when they were called ? — I have known them to get up at from half-past 4 to 5. 2607. For the purpose of working ? — Yes. 2608. They had been six hours in bed, had they ? —Yes. 2609. {Mr. Twisletoii.) Under the most favourable circumstances you miglit h.ave had half an hour's more sleep ? — Yes, perhaps half an hour ; that is, if you were " downstairs call." You could only be one "call" at a time. There was another boy who was my partner in this, and who was " upstairs call," and he had to call " downstairs call." He had to set the alarum to call himself, and then to call " downstairs call ;" and then " upstairs call " could go to bed for another hour, and then he nmst wake again and answer all the " clocks " and all the " elections " that were called in the dormitor}^ ; while " downstairs call" took care of the kettles and answered " election," and all the wants of the seniors downstairs. This went on till 8 o'clock. At 10 minutes past 7, '"upstairs call" had to take round the watch and go to every cu- bicle, and call out '• h.alf past 7 ;" at half-past 7 he had to call out " 25 minutes to 8," at 25 minutes to 8 he had to call out " 20 minutes to 8," and at 20 minutes to 8 he had to call out " 8 o'clock." He has a watch, and if he were a moment behind the exact time at one of the cubicles, sometimes they would lick him for it. 2610. (3Ir. Vaughan.) Do you mean to say there was a particular time at which you were to be at a particular cubicle ? — You were supposed to be at every culiicle at once, at the same time. Sometimes they detained you, asking what time it was. 2611. Was there any punishment for being before your time ? — Yes, they would not allow you to be be- fore 3'our time. I have never been before my time. 2612. Were not j'our duties absolutely impossible as you describe them ? — Very nearly. It is impossible to do everything that a junior has to do, without breaking some of the rules. 2613. I mean as to your being at every cubicle at precisely the same moment, with a punishment for being either loo soon or too late ? — You cannot do it, it is impossible ; but the punishment is not always enforced. Sometimes it is. It is liable to be enforced. 2614. {Lord LyttvUon.) How often iu the school- time had you to do this ? — I think about three times a fortnight. 2615. {Lord Devon.) Did it apply to the whole year or only to the time when the challenges were going on, when those boys who were " helps " to others found it necessary to get up and have two or three hours' work before school time ? — I believe it is worse this half than any other half, because they are working for their election, and they get up in the middle of the night now ; Ijut last half they were working for their election too, and that was as bad nearly as any, I should think. The summer half is not quite so bad, because they are generalh' not called till 5 o'clock in the morning, so that you have not to get up till about 4. 2616. Is it one reason for their being called so early and getting up so earlj^ that if a senior has three or four boys to help he must give them each half-au-hour or something of that sort before the ordinary school-time? — No; they do not go up generally to their boys till about 7 o'clock, because the school doors are not open before that. Of course that is an excuse for being called up about 6 or half- past 6, but not for being called up at 4. At 8 o'clock you go into the school and between 8 and 9 you arc employed in your work, and all that time you are liable to be called upon by a senior for note paper, india-rubber, gutta-percha, or wedges, besides a variety of other things. 2617. {Mr. Twislcton.) What arc wedges ?— They are things you stick in the window, to prevent their rattling, I suppose. 2618. {Mr. }"aifr//ifui.) To keep the draught out? — No, to prevent a noise ; and besides that, you must Sec357T be provided with dip corks, dijis full of ink, knives, and pens and paper, envelopes of various sizes, string, sealing wax, pencils, and squares of paper called quarterns, and as I was head working junior I had to carry a box of matches, in .addition to all those other things. They never carry those things al'out with them, because they know there are always a lot of juniors in school whom they can get them from. 2619. {J^ord Chirendon.) Did they return the knives or did they keep them ? — You sometimes got them returned and sometimes the}' kept them ; but very often they forgot who they took them from, and perhaps gave them to another junior. 2620. {Mr. Vaughan.) Witli regard to the ink and paper, had they not in the studies or the ]daces where they studied, inkstands fixed ? — They generally had an inkstand of their own in their studies, but still if they wanted to write a note up school, or do anything which required ink, these were the things which were used, these little dips. There were no inkstands fixed up school, so that they always came to the juniors for them. 2621. {lA)rd Li/ttelfon.) How did they carry these things about ? — In their college waistcoat, in a great pocket. 2622. {Mr. Thompson.) What arc dips ?— They are curious little inkstands. 2623. Are they tight, do not they let the ink out ? — You must have a new cork in them, and they do not hold much ink. You have to be constantly filling them, and they must be very clean, and nice, and all that, and if there is the least chip upon them the senior will shy it over the wall, or else he wmII give it to you back, and say, " I shall send you into the " washing-place by my second election." There is a sink there, about the height of this table, and you have to put up one leg. I do not know which, but I think it is the left, and then the second election runs at 3'ou and takes as many kicks as he likes. I know there was one boy who said it nearly did for him altogether. 3 P3 WEST- MINSTER. Mr. W.S.Meyiicli. 29 Jin. 1803. 486 PUBLIC SCHOOLS COMJIISSION : MINUTKS OP EVIDENCE. WEST- SUNSTEK. See 3577. 2G24. {Mr. VoiKjhdn.) You sny there was one leg • Mr which you were obliged to hold up ? — Yes. W.S.Meyrick. 2625. And you do not recollect which leg it was ? I do not, because they never tried it on with me. ■ i'.i Jan. 1863. 2626. Was it or was it not a common punishment ? It was quite a common punishment. 2627. But you were so fortunate as to escape it ? — I was very fortunate in that respect, because I always tried to do all that was required, and I did escape that particular punishment. I do not think my second election would have tried it, because I should have half killed him if ho had. 2628. {Mr. Thotnpsoti.) Was he a less boy than you ? — They were all rather smaller, I think, than I am. My second election was older, but perhaps a little shorter. 2629. And if you had half killed him, probably some bigger boy' would have performed the same operation on you ? — Most likely. 2630. {Sir S. Nor//icote.) Will you explain what you mean by your second election. Was there a particular boy in the second election whose duty it was to look after you ?— Yes ; every senior has a second election, and the second election is answerable to the senior for all the misconduct of the junior. The senior ilogs the second election generally, and the second election jierforms upon the junior. 26.il. Then if the second election happens to be a smaller boy than the junior and is afraid to make him do his woi-k, the second election is the boy who suffers ? — No, for you arc obliged to submit, whether you are smaller or not, to the second election ; and generally speaking the second election boy from being older is bigger and stronger than the junior. 2632. In the case you mention, suppose you yourself had resisted the second election. Would he have been punished for your neglect, or would you have been punished, or both ?— I should have been punished because they would have had the whole of the second election in upon me, and then, if they could not have manao-ed it, the seniors would have done it. I should not have got oft' in any way. I will now tell you all the things you can be, in one day, if I can. I do not know ihat°I shall be aide to remember them all. Between 9 and 10 you have to go into college, and you are what is called " watch," that is, you have to stay and answer the bells. Suppose a man-servant came with any note or anything for the boys, you have to run to the door and take the note. You have to answer the senior's cry of " clock," and you have also to answer " election," which is holloaed out without ceafing be- tween 9 and 10, and every time that there are juniors in college, and any of the seniors want any- thing. 2633. With regard to .answering "election" is there any rule as to which junior shall answer it, or have all of them to answer it? — The lowest junior in the room answers "election" first, and then it goes on like that ; but if it is your own senior who calls "election," and you recognise his voice, you have to go. Tlien you have to keep the upper and under election room tidy, and to see that the kettles are full of hot and boiling water ; the boys are always washing their hands between 9 and 10. You continually have to carrv kettles about to them in winter, full of hot water. 2634. {3Ir. Vaiir/han.) Does this apply to the same time of the day? — Between 9 and 10. At 10 o'clock you have to take the books of your own senior up to school. 2635. {Lord Clarendon.) Is there no breakfast then ; when is that ? — I forgot to mention that ; you are allowed 10 minutes when you are "watch" for breakftist, and you just run in ; it takes you 5 minutes out of the 10 to bring your senior's books down school. You have to take them up at 8 o'clock, and at 9, you have to bring them down and put them in his room. That generally occupies you till 5 minutes past 9. At 5 minutes past 9, you rush into hall and you get what you can to eat, so as to be ill college again strictly by 10 minutes past Sec 3577. 9 ; that is generally a quarter-past 9. You are liable even during this breakfast time, to be running out for different things which the seniors may want, and to answer " election " and do anything they want. It very often happens when you are " watch," that at 5 minutes past 9 you are sent out by a senior to go a good way to shop to get him something, and you do not come back till 10 minutes past 9, and if you are not in by the quarter, the second election will not take any excuse. They say "you could have been in if you liked," and they make you stand up and hit you on the head ; you have to stand up with your hands down, and they hit you with the open hand — so, and back again, and they go on with that, as long as they like. 2636. {3Ir. Twislefo/i.) Have you been punished in that way ? — Yes. 2637. How often ? — Two or three times. It was quite a common thing. I have been rather lucky to escape it so often ; I haveheen threatened very often, nearly every day for something or other, because it is impossible to do everything. At 10 o'clock you took your senior's books up school, and you were in school till half-past 12, and all this time you are liable to be asked for note paper and pens, and all the things I have mentioned. At half-past 12, you come down together into college again, and watch there again, answer the bell, and look after all the rooms, till 2 o'clock. Then if you got leave to go and wash your liands you were very lucky, because you must stay in one room, in one part of the college, and you are not allowed to go out of that, without special leave from the second election. 2638. (Mr. Thompson.) Wliat o'clock is this? — Two o'clock ; and then we go to dinner. 2639. {Lord Clarendon.) You have been in college then from 10 till 2 ?— From half-past 12 till 2. 2640. {Sir S. Korthcote.) When you say " leave from the second election," do you mean from your own second election ? — Any second election in the room can give you leave just to go up to your room and wash your hands, not to go out of college. * 2641. {Mr. Vmighan,) With regard to the time you mention, between 8 and 9 in the morning, you said you hr.d to get hot water for washing. Do the boys begin to wash again so early ? — Yes ; they wash their hands generally before they go into school. 2642. Is not that after school ? — Before they go into 10 o'clock school. 2643. They wash their hands again as early as that after the first washing in the morning? — Yes, generally. At 2 o'clock you go to dinner, and you are allowed a quarter of an hour. You must be in college at a quarter past 2. Then you look after the rooms, and answer " election," and do anything the seniors want, until half-past 3, just the same as between 9 and 10, and, as between half-past 12 and 2. 2644. {Lord Clarendon.) You must be there in readiness ? — Yes, and all the other juniors who have not been told by a senior, " You may go out of college to-day," must be in too, in readiness to answer " election ;" and sometimes I have been a week or a Sec 3594. < fortnight together without having leave out of college ; and every time I had to go into college and stay there to answer " election." 2645. What did you do while you were waiting ? Were you able to read, or to prepare any lessons ? — The cry of " election " was so constant that it was impossible. I could not even have written a note. I never used to be able to write a note to my father or anj'oue without perhaps making two or three at- tempts at it, because I should just begin, and then " election " would be called, and I should have to leave it open on the table, and perhaps not come back till another 20 minutes. Then I should have to begin again, and perhaps be called off again immediately. 2646. {Lord Lytteltori.) What sort of errands were they which you were sent upon ? — To go with caps and gowns to the tailor's ; that was very common ; and also going to the post, and going to Sutcliffe's the confectioner's, and Harvey's. PUBLIC SCHOOLS COMMISSION : — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 48'; 2647. Do you luean tluie was no system of sending letters for the boys ? — No, not in college. 2648. They sent tiiem liow they could? — Hy tlieir juniors. SeeSK7. 2649. (Mr. Vaughan.) Ai-e you describing what vou are liable to every day, or what you are liable to on particular days when you are in office ? — What you are liable to, every day. 2650. (Lord Devon.) The " call " is not liable to it every da}-, is he ? — This is " watch" which I am describing now. All the other juniors are liable to be sent on " election." That is so the whole of the year. At half-past 3 you take your senior's books up to him, then you go into school till half-past o. 1 am supposing uow tliat I am what is called " tenor." At between half-past 5 and a quarter to G, I have to bring my senior's books down, ligiit all the gas in college, and up in the dormitoiy, and in their sitting rooms ; and liave all that done by 20 minutes to 6. 2651. (Sir S. Norlhcote.) Can you be "tenor" and " call " on the same day ? — Yes, " tenor " and " watch." 2652. And " call ?"— And '• call " the night before. 2653. (^Lord Li/itcl/oii.) Will you describe what " tenor" is ? — I don't know the meaning or origin of the term, but you liave to light all the g.as, and that brings you to 20 minutes to 6, if you are so lucky as to get it all done by then. Then you have to get tea for your senior, and then when you have done all that, which will take you till about 10 minutes to 6, you have to take a " quartern " round, and ask the seniors whether they " will jjlease to take any- thing by orders." If you do not say exactly those words they will pitch into you. 2654. {Mr. Vaughan.) Wh}' should not you say - those words it' }ou know them well ? — There is no • See 362.x one to tell you when you first go info college what words you are to say. 2655. Do you mean to say there is no friend by to say, "You are to say so and so?'' — The juniors of vour own election know no better than you do, and the second election will not condescend to be friends. 2656. If a boy the very first time he had to per- form these duties made a mistake, would that be visited with a punishment ? — They would speak very .sharply to their second election, and the second election would very likely speak sharply to you. 2657. That would be the first time ? — Y''es. 2658. Then the second time do you think that if a boy wished to do what was the custom of the school, there would be any difficulty in his using that exact form of words ? — If you have to use, or to conform to thirty or forty different set forms of words and rules, you are nearly sure to i'orget one of them. 2659. There are so many as that during the day, are there ? — Y''es, I really think so ; they are so nu- merous that I can't recollect them all. 2660. Will you mention a i'ew more of the forms of words ? — I will first go through with the orders, and then there will be another form of words. Y^ou have to go round for these orders to the seniors, but the other parts of the college must come and tell you what they want, and you have to put it down on the paper aud go to " college John," and ring the bell that is on the inner side of the door in college. " College John " is waiting outside ; he comes out, and then the minute you ring the bell jou must call out — " Any more orders, John is going off." One boy called out one night the first time it had come to his turn, " Any more orders, John is about to leave," aud there was a great row about that. He was had into the upper election room, and the seniors talked to him for a long time. He was let off I think after a bit. He said he was very soi'ry, and that it was the first time. He was let off with a very severe reprimand. 2661. {Sir S. Northcote.) What sort of orders are sent on these occasions ? — For a bottle of essence of coffee, potted meat, and that sort of thing. 2662. (Lord Clareiidott.) Did they ever order any beer or spirits ? — It is not allowed. 2663. Is it ever done ? — Yes, it is done some- times. 2664. {Sir S. Northcole.) Through John ? — No, not through John, not by regular orders, but they get it in themselves or send a junior to fetch it. 2665. Is John ever expected to do anything linn- self ? — He cleans the boots in the morning. The two " college Johns " make the beds in the morning. That is all they do. They do not keep the rooms clean, and they do not clean the grates. 2666. {Mr. Thompson.) Did you clean the grates ? — Yes. You have to clean the grates of a morning ; you have to rake out all the cinders and set the fire afresh and light it, and get the kettles down from different parts of the college. That is at half-past 3 in the morning. 2667. (Mr. VattgJian.) The cleaning of the grates is not a part of the duty itself, but is the result of your having to light the fires ? — Yes. Y'ou ai'e not obliged to keep the grate shining. 2668. Nor to blacklead it r — No. 2669. (Mr. Thompson.) Supposing j-ou were not required to light the fires at that early hour, would the college John light them at any subsequent time ? — No. They are always lighted by us, so I do not know ; but I do not think it would be his duty, because he does not come into college at that time ; he is away. 2670. At what time ? — Say at 7 o'clock. At 6 o'clock he begins to clean the boots, and he has done by 7, and goes ott" directly. 2671. {Lord Devon.) Who lights the gas in the morning at half-past 3? — The "downstairs call" lights them in the morning, 2672. (Lord Clarendon.) Who puts it out at night? — The junior. 2673. (Mr. Thompson.) Do you not think that without the services of the junior the seniors would be very ill served ? — Y'"es. 2674. At present perhaps 3'ou think the}' are rather too well served ? — I think they are a great deal. 2675. (Sir S. Norlhcote.) The college John would not consider it part of his duty to light the gas in the eveuiug ? — No, not now. Of course it wants a regular revolution to accomplish that, to make him do anything at all ; because having been in college so long, he knows what the juniors do, aud what he has to do, and his dut}' is a very small }>art of it. He has to look after hall. That is his chief duty, to get all the meals and that sort of thing. 2676. (Lord Clarendon.) Who clean the basins, and empties the slops, and that sort of thing in the seniors' bedrooms ? — The beds are made and the slops are emptied once in the day between 8 and 9, by some of the household of "college John" — two old women I think. 2677. (Mr. Thompson.) Afterwards have the juniors to perform those offices ? — Yes, after 9 o'clock, you have to do that. You must be very particular — it is according as your senior is particular — but you ought to go up four or five times a day, aud see that the basin is clean, and everything arranged well, and then when '-John" goes off iu the evening the " tenor " has to wait iu the room, answer "election" and " call." " Watch" has nothing to do with "clock" at 6 o'clock, because then we are locked iu. After that, he has nothing to do with answering "clock." Then " tenor" takes it up, and he answers it till half-past 10 at night. 2678. (Lord Clarendon.) Do you think the de- scription you have given of this Monday would be a fair description of every day throughout the year for the first year that a junior is in college ? — Yes ; some days you are not " tenor," and some days you are "watch," and some days you are "tenor" only. I think it is as fair a description as can be given. I have described all the things you can be in one day, and that I have been in one day. 2679. You can be all these three things, "call," " watch," aud " tenor " in the sajue day ? — Y'es. 3P4 WEST- MINSTLJ>. Mr. W. S. Mcyrkk. 29 Jan. 1863. 488 PUBLIC SCHOOLS COMMISSION: — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. WEST- MINSTER. Mr. \V. S. Mei/ric/t. 29 Jan. ISCI. 2680. (Mr. rni/f/haii.) How often would one boy be obliged to do the duties of" watch " in the week ? — It comes to his turn about once a week. 2681. IIow often to do the duties of "tenor" in the week ?— It depends, of course, on the number of the juniors. There were ten in our election, so that we were pretty well oft' in that way. It came, I think, about twice a week. It very often came more frequently, because in the foot-ball half, some of the boys who had been fagging foot-ball, were told by the senior, that tliey need not take any of these college duties. They have only to make tea and answer "election." 2682. On those days on which a boy was neither " tenor " nor '• watch," would he have any difficulty in finding time to write to his parents as well as to do his school work ? — It is nearly impossible to do your school work, even if you are not any of tho.se things. You have got to answer " election " all night, and that is a great thing. Tiien you have to make tea for your senior three times .i night, and as often more as he wants it ; sometimes he wants coft'ee between the teas, and there is such a noise going on in the room from "election" being called and boys answering " coming," and all that^ that it is impossible to begin any work at all. If you are sitting down at the table and are not answering '■ election," there are always lots of boys coming in for paper, and you have to get up and go" to your bui-eau and bring it out. Of course all these interruptions prevent your doing your work. 2683. You sav you cannot do your work. Are you liable to be called upon by the master the next morning to be put on to your school work ? — Yes. 2684. What happens if you have not done it ? — I think they must know pretty well that a junior has not much time to do his work in, but they will not admit it, of course : or else the juniors would not <3o the little they do do. A junior says he really has not time to do it ; and the master say.s, " Oh, you "' must do it. It is all nonsense about time, you can " make time if you like." 2685. Is that often jdeaded, do you mean, by the juniors ? — Yes, always, that is the excuse. 2686. It is a constant excuse ? — Yes. 2687. It is never theoretically admitted by the master ? — Never. 2688. Is it practically admitted by the master ? Would he give a less punishment to a junior, or no punishment at all in the case in which he would give a punishment to another boy ? — I think he would be inclined to give a less punishment to a junior boy, than to a town boy. 2689. (3Ir. Thompson.) Did you ever know any junior severely punished by the master for omitting to do work which it was impossible for him to do ? — They do not beat them or anything severely, but they keep them in. I have been kept from going out. 2690. Kept in where ? — You have leave on Satur- day and Sunday' to go out. 2691. {Lord Clareiidoii.) To go home? — Yes. 2692. (3Ir. Thompson.) Where were yon kept ? — " Kept in " means that you have to stay in college instead of going home, on Saturdays and half holidays. 2693. Were you lialde still to these same inter- ruptions at these half holidays, or were you quite alone ? — You were not quite alone. You had more to do, generally, in the half holidays. I used to look forward to going into school as some slight relief from all the fagging, but on the half holidays you have to run up with their coats, because they are going on the river boating, and you have to go to the post and all that. You have more to do on the Saturday and Wednesday afternoons than at any time. 2694. The power of these seniors does not cease in the school, does it ? — No ; they have power to come up and ask for their pens, and quarterns, and dips, and all that sort of thing. 269.5. {Sir S. Northcote.) When the boys go out to play at cricket or football, or on the river, or other- wise, is there any one left in college to be calling " election ;" have you not time to yourselves then ? — There is only one junior left in college between half-past 12 and 2, except when it is a wet day, because all the rest are obliged to go into a cer- tain place, called " green," and you have to stay there from half-past 12 to a quarter to 2. 2696. (Mr. Thompson.) What is " green ?" — It is in Great Dean's Yard, a little enclosure there. You have to go in there. You need not play unless you like, but )'ou must walk about, and stay there from half-past 12 to a quarter to 2. If you are kept up school, as a junior very often is, for not having known his work of a morning, the master saj's, "Oh, " you must come up school with us this morning, and " do your work up there." That means, that after regular school is over, you have to go out and do your work out of school hours, up school, with the master who is appointed to look after all the boys who are kejit up school. 2697. {Mr. Vaughan.) Do you know Avhat the ob- ject is of compelling you to be at green if you are not compelled to take part in the game ? — I do not see any uliject in it, except that it is part of the sys- tem of keeping ns down, and separate, from the elder boys. 2698. You think it is a mere badge of inferiority ? — That is all ; I think so. 2699. You do not think that it is to secure your not being in the town or not being out of bounds at all ? — It may have some good effect in that way. You have the " station " when you ai-e a town boy. They enforce it very strictly iu college. You must not come out at 20 minutes to 2, or 25 minutes to 2, though you may want to go somewhere very particularly. 2700. You still think it possible that the institution may have been established for the purpose of pre- venting boys wandering about the town and being out of bounds, although it is enforced in rather a harassing manner ? — I daresay that was perhaps part of the object. 2701. {Lord Lyttelton.) Was not there a system by which the juniors were required to touch a certain drawer ? — Yes. 2702. What was that ? — There is a certain drawer in the middle of the school, and every under election when he goes up school, has to touch it with his gown or something ; he has to touch it in some way or another ; and he has to put in a lot of " quarterns " and pens, and the pens must be all nice and not broken, and the quarterns must be quite clean. 2703. {Mr. Thompson.) What is the size of a quartern ? — About the size of a sheet of letter paper. 2704. {I^ord L.t/ttelton.) How often had they to do this ? — Every time they went up school. 2705. When you say touching you mean not only touching, but they were obliged to put somethiug into it? — Yes, the juniors were; but the second election could pass the drawer with merely touch- ing _it. 2706. I suppose the object of your being compelled every time you passed to put something into it was for the purpose of ensuring a constant supply by the casual visits of the boy ? — Yes. 2707. {Mr. Vaughan.) Is touching by others a badge of others being bound to put in paper if the seniors chose to enforce it ? — Yes. 2708. Possibly those boys who were only com- pelled to touch it were excused iu the first instance from putting something in, because the younger boys by constantly passing would keep it in a sufficiently full state ? — Yes. 2709. {3Ir. Thompson.) What is the size of the drawer ? — About four feet long. 2710. And deep in proportion ? — Not so deep, per- haps not above two feet. 2711. {Lord Clarendon.) What do you think was the annual expense to you of providing paper, pens, penknives, and the different things that you have mentioned ? — I really do not know ; but I think it used to cost me about 21. or 3/. extra in a term. PUBLIC SCHOOLS COMMISSION : — MINL'TES OF EVIDENCE. 489 L'"12. (Mr. Thompson.) What was the giitta porcha for ? — It was for putting on tlie tops of foils. 2713. For fencing ? — Yes. 2714. {Sir S. Northcote.') What happened if 3011 were kept np school between half- past 12 and 2? Had you to take any steps to get off your station in grci'U ? — Yes. You have first to ask the second election who is appointed for it, whose tnrn it conies to during the week, lie is called " institute." You have to asJc liini. He gives you permission, and then you go to the monitor of station, as he is called, and you ask him. lie generally asks you what you are kept up school for, and then he says, " Well, you " must not be kept up school again," and perhaps he gives you a cuff' on the liead, or something of that sort ; and if you are kept up school the next day, then he will say, " Go and fetch a racket," so you go and fetch a wooden racket, and he gives you five or six cuts over the calf of the leg with it. 2715. {Mr. Thompson.) What is a racket ? — It is a wooden racket, which you play rackets with. 2716. {Mr. Vdiighan.) Is it the same as a tennis racket ? — No. 2717. It is not so heavy ? — It is very heavy, be- cause it is made of wood, entirely. -A tennis racket is wired. 2718. Is it very long ? — It is about two feet, or rather more. 2719. So that holding one end and striking with the other would give a heavy blow ? — You can give a tremendous blow with it. 2720. (.1/;-. Thompson.) Is it with the flat part ho hits you ? — He generally takes it with the edge. The best way is to come down so, and he just cuts you with it {the witness explained the icay in which if was done). 2721. {Mr. Twislcton.) Have you often been punished that way? — Twice, I think, but not heavily. I have beou hit about with a racket, but not anything veiy much. 2722. (Mr. Vaughan.) Never on the shins ? — Not on the shins. They give you a great poke in the stomach with it. 2723. With the end of the racket ?— Yes. Very often j-ou have great difficulty in finding a monitor when you want to ask leave. You are obliged to ask him, liecause if you do not, they half kill you for not asking him. 2724. {Lord Clarendon.) You are obliged to ask all these different authorities for permission to obey the master's orders ? — Yes. 272.5. {Sir S. Northcote.) Is it ever refused? — They cannot very well refuse it, but they, give you a licking for it. 2726. {Mr. Twisleton.) If you ask for it too often ? —Yes. 2727. {Mr. Vaughan.) Every person who goes out in that way withdraws some one from attendance upon them ? — Yes. 2728. It diminishes the number of attendants so far ?— Yes. 2729. Do the otlier attendants object also to boys often asking leave out as thereby throwing more work on them ? — Of course they do not like it, becimse it gives them more work. 2730. {Sir S. Xorthcote.) Is it ever the case that boys deliberately get themselves confined to np school, in order to get oft" fagging ? — No, they dare not, because the penalty is so great. 2731. But the seniors could not discover whether it was done deliberately ? — No, they could not ; but still they would give them a licking every time. 2732. {Mr. lliompsoii.) Have you ever been kept up school by any chance ? — Yes, very often during my junior year. 2733. Never before ? — Very seldom before. Once only, I think I was kept during the first year. I had plenty of time to do my work then. 2734. {Lord Devon.) How many hours during the day would a junior have for private work, supposing him not to be "call," "watch," or "tenor ;" indepen- 1. dent of work done in school, I mean ? — He is in the room, and he might be working all that time if he liked, but he would never have two minutes at a time unoccupied. In fact, he would be liable to be called away at any moment. 2735. Do I understand that that liability to con- stant interruption applies to all the juniors whether they are " call," " watch," or " tenor," or not ?— It applies to every one of them, and at all times. 2736. {Mr. Thompson.) During the time you were a junior were you sensible that you were tailing oflF, say, for instance, in your power of writing Latin verses ? — Yes ; I fell otFin everything. 2737. Y'ou are conscious of that? — Yes ; I took no interest in anything, in games, or anything else. I had no time, and I got quite depressed. 2738. Where were you before you went into col- lege ? — I was in the under remove. 2739. Were you a boarder, or at home ? — I was a boarder at Mr. James's. 2740. Were you perfectly happy with Mr. James ? — Very jolly indeed it was. I was a fag for the first, half, but I did not mind that at all, because I never was subject to this brutal treatment. I could not be subject to it at any time. 2741. Why not ? — Because it was not in the nature of the town boys. It was a dilferent system alto- gether. They never thought of enforcing it like this. 2742. In fact it was a tradition which rec^nired to be learnt by going into college ? — Yes. 2743. (Lord Lyttelton.) Do you mean that the fagging among the town boys is not excessive or oppressive at all ? — It is not at all excessive. You have to do ordinary fagging ; just to brush their clothes, and carry their books up school, and go for them anywhere; but you are not liable to be sent aljout by 30 boys, and every one sending a junior nearly at the same time if he can. 2744. {Mr. Twisleton.) You do not object to that fagging ? — Not at all. 2745. {Lord L.j/ttclton.) Were there the same sorts of punishments among the town boys ? — They had power to lick you in any way lliey liked, but they never did it. 2746. Do you think the town boys knew what was going on in college ? — Tliere was a general report. They all sa}', "What poor slaves juniors are," be- cause they see them running about, and all that ; but thev do not really know what j^ou have to do, and what punishments you get. 2747. Do not tliey associate together ? — Y'es ; but they keep that quite to themselves. 2748. Tiiey do not talk of it to each other ?— No. 2749. The colleges would not tell the town boys anything about it ? — No. 2750. Vv'ould they be ai'raid to (ell it ? — No, not at all, but they like to keep it quite to themselves. 2751. {Mr. J^aughan.) In what point of view, may I ask, do they like to keep it to themselves. Do they think it is a shabby thing to tell, or do they think the system a discredit to the bod)' they belong to ? — No, they do not at all ; they think it is quite a credit to them ; but unless you are in college, you are not to know anything about it. 2752. Do the boys who are themselves suffering think it creditable to the college ? — The juniors do not, certainly. 2753. Is it fear, or what is the motive which deters them from spreading it amongst the others ? — Partly from fear; and then you do not like to tell the town boys the degradation you are undergoing every day. 2754. {L^ord Devon.) What are the duties of the " monitor of chamber " ?^ — He has to sit in the room during the evening from 8 o'clock till prayer time, which in the winter vras 10 minutes to 10, and see that all the juniors were doing their work, as much as possible. Then he had to see that the room was clean, and was well swept up by " light-the-fire," and all the kettles boiling, and every thing in good condi- tion ; and then, after prayers, he had to walk up and 3 Q WEST- MINSTER. Mr. W.S.Meyrick. 29 Jan. 1863. 490 PUBLIC SCHOOLS COMMISSION: — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. WEST- iUNSTER. Mr. ir. S. Met/rick. ^9 Jan. 1863. down the dormitory and see that all the boys were in bed. 2753. At what time were the jiinioi's to be in bed? — They onght to be in bed by hall'-past 10, but when you were " pul-to-rights-chairs " and " light-the-fire" it was nearly impossible to get up into the dormitory before 20 minutes to 1 1 . 2756. With regard to these punishments that are inflicted by the seniors and the monitors, were they inflicted at the discretion of each individual boy, or was there anything like an appeal to a larger body, or to the whole body of seniors ?— If it were going to be an important thing, they generally conferred amongst themselves, and had a sort of tribunal in the upper election room. 2757. And the oflender was brought before them ? — Yes, and then the boy whom he had refused to obey, or whatever it was, laid into him with a walkiug-stick. 2758. Was the person offended the person to inflict the punishment ? — Sometimes; but I think it was at his option. If he wished to do it, he could ; but if not the captain would inflict it. 2759. Were you ever brought up to that sort of tribunal ? — No ; I never had anything of the sort. 2760. You never were present ? — No ; the juniors were not allowed to be present. 2761. You speak from information that you have received ? — Yes. 2762. {Lord Devon.) You were there five mouths, were you not ? — Yes. 2763. How often were you caned during that time ? — i never had a caning. 2764. I )uean, by boys ? — I never had a cane used to me by boys. I have had a racket. You mean caning, not the buckhorsing. 2765. How often were you buckhorsed ? — About five or six times. 2766. That was, I suppose, for such ofieuces as failing to obey orders quickly enough, or using a wrong term when j'ou had to take a message ? — Yes, that was considered quite a light punishment ; no punishment at all. That was done eveiy day. 2767. Were you ever subjected to the punishment of putting your leg Up, and having the second election run at you ? — No. 2768. During your time, how many canings by the monitors, or by the head boys, do you think took place ? — I should think about six or seven during one half. 2769. I am speaking of the caning which is in- flicted by the monitors or the captain ? — I should think about six or seven, and that is not including any little punishment the senior thinks fit to give you. Suppose he goes to his room, and does uot find water in his basin, perhaps he will make you kneel down, and will hit you about, and perhaps give you two or three cuts with the racket ; but that does not count as anything. 2770. {Lord Clarendon.) Does he kick you ? — Yes; not as a regular thing, but he will just give you a kick, perhaps- as you run off'. 2771. {Lord Devon.) Is not there a form of punish- ment called touching toes ? Will you give us, in order, a description of the various modes of punish- ment to which a boy can be subject ? We will begin with touching toes ; what is that ? — That is part of the system of caning. You have to stand up, when they say " touch your toes." You go down as nearly as you can, without bending your knees ; you must uot bend your knees ; and they leather into you with the cane. Sometimes you tumble over, and then you have to stand up again. 2772. Did you ever witness that punishment ? — I saw it once when I had no right to see it. I saw it, going into college. It was taking place in the upper election room, and I was going into college from the upper staircase. I saw over, and I saw it going on. 2773. In the presence of all the seniors ? — As many as could be brought together. 2774. Then comes another punishment which you described as buckhorsing, of which you have given us the detail. What other punishment is there ? — You have to put your hand down on a table, and then they will take the sharp end of a college cap and come down with it as hard as they can on your hand. This is considered nothing much. Sometimes they take a paper knife. I know one time a boy committed a slight offence, and one of the second election took a paper knife and cut his hand open, and left a great scar, which is there now. 2775. {Mr. Vaughan.) With the point of the cap and paper-knife ? — Yes. The eflFect of the sharp edge of a college cap is tremendous. . 2776. {Lord Lijttelton.) Might they do it more than once ? — They go on perhaps 10 or 12 times with it. 2777. {L^ord Devon.) Then there is another punishment, the sending for a racket and applying it to the calves of the leg ? — Yes, and all over the body, and over the shoulders. 2778. Is there any other punishment than those which you have described ? — The kicking ; that is a most brutal punishment, and it is so dangerous in my opinion. 2779. {Mr. Thompson.) It is called '■ tanning," is it not ? — It is called " tanning in way." 2780. {Sir S. Northcote.) Did you ever know of that, in fact, while you were there ? — Yes, boys have told me of it, and it is done as a matter of course. Boys have told me, " I was taken into 'way' yesterday, " for not having note-paper." 2781. {Mr. Thompson.) What is the meaning of " way " ? — It is the washing place. 2782. ( Sir S. jSlorthcote.) Have you seen boys suffering from it, lame, or anything of that kind ? — I have seen them come out very much knocked about. 2783. Do they seem the*worse for it an hour after- wards ? — Yes. 2784. A day afterwards ? — Yes. I do uot re- member any very bad case this time while I have been in college, but I know there have been cases. I have been told of two or three cases of boys who have been so severely and dangerously kicked, that they have been obliged not to jjlay or anything else, for a long time. 2785. {Mr. Thompson.') Did you ever hear of a boy's spine being injured by it ? — No, I never heard of the spine being injured particularly, but I have heard of their being dreadfully injured. 2786. {Mr. Vaughan.) Does not the lifting up of the leg make it much more dangerous ? — That is what makes it so very dangerous. 2787. {Mr. Thompson.) They are kicked on the thigh of the leg which is lifted up ?• — Yes, .and any other pai't ; anywhere. 2788. Would you say, speaking generally, that these punishments you have described are more severe than the flogging in school ? — Much more severe. Mr. Scott's flogging would be nothing at all to any of these punishments. I think it would be even less than having to "knuckle down." 2789. You think Mr. Scott's flogging is equally effectual for preventing the evils which it is designed to remedy ? — It is applied for different purposes. His flogging is generally for not knowing your work, and so on. I should not think it was quite so effectual, at least it cannot be. 2790. {Lord Clarendon.') It does not inspire the same fear ? — No. 2791. {Mr. 'Vaughan.) During the five months you were in college, was there a sensible difference in your progress in the part of the school which you were in ? —Yes. 2792. Did you lose many places during that time ? — Yes ; I am certain I lost a great deal by it, and Mr. Miirshall said that he did uot know what had come to me, and that I must take more pains. I said I had got no time to do it, and I really could uot. I did all that I possibly could, and could uot do any more. Sees etSi PUBLIC eCHOOLS COMMISSION: — MIXUTES OF EVIDENCE. 491 2793. For instance, did you sink to tlie bottom of your form ? — Not quite to the bottom, but 1 got about middle, when I had been tirst. 2794. {Mr. Thompson.^ How many elections were in college at a time ? — Four. 279o. {Sir S. Norlhcote.) Do you suppose you were worse treated or better treated or about the average of boys in your own election ? — I think about the average. I think I might be a little better treated than some of them. 2796. You have sutiered a great deal from the interruption toyour work ; did you eversuffer from any punishment of a severe and brutal nature during the tive moTitlis you were there ? — No, I never snifered liodil}' from any punishment which I have described, but I suffered greatly in my spirits. 2797. {Lord Lyttelton.) Did you suffer from want of sleep ? — I always felt very tired when I came home on the Saturday', and always got to bed as soon as I could. 2798. {Sir S. Nort/icofe.) Did you notice that any other boys in your election suffered in point of health or spirits from the treatment they received ? — I think during the junior year every boy goes out of school. He either gets ill, or pretends to be ill, from the treatment, and generally a great deal of his time is .■spent out of school. 2799. {Mr. Thompson.) Do you mean at home ? — Out of school, in a room for the sick boys, and at home sometimes. 2800. {Lord T^jfUelton.) Did you lose your apjie- tite ? — I do not know that I did lose my appetite exactly. Sometimes I did, because sometimes I was really not at all well, but when I was well, I was all right. 2S01. You lost your spirits ? — Yes. altogether ; and I got very ill two or three times. 2802. {Mr. Vaughan.) What was being out of school ? — Either being in a room appointed in Mrs. Goolding's part of the college, and there you are attended by the doctor, Mr. Holt, or else it is going home, if you live near. 2803. When you went into this place were you entirely removed from the command of the collegers ? — First of all you had to get leave from the monitors. 2804. I should like to ask you first the effect of your being out of seliool ? — Yes, we were free from them, then. 2805. In order to get the privilege of obtaining that freedom, you must do no schoolwork ? — No. 2806. Was there no check upon boys resorting to it from idleness or merely to escape from this tyranny ? — The doctor comes every morning, and he would see the bov, and sav if he were perfectly well. 2807. I understood from you that in consequence of what they suffered they often feigned this sick- ness some part of the time in order to escape it. How were they able to carry that pretence out ? — By their own cleverness, I suppose. It is just as they had a turn for it. 2808. In fact, matching themselves against the penetration of the doctor ? — Yes. 2809. {Lord Devon.) Had any individual monitor or senior power and right to cane of his own will, and at the spur of the moment ? — Yes ; he had power to do anything, to one who was inferior to him. 2810. Could he cane him immediately, if a supposed offence was committed ? — He could do anything he chose. 2811. Supposing a junior boy said, "I must appeal " to the seniors," would he have a right to do that ? — No one could prevent him if he got to a senior boy telling him about it ; but the senior would not listen to it, and they would probably lick him far more for it. 2812. He would not have any right, by the usages of the school, to say, " Do not punish me till I have " appealed to the seniors ?" — No ; the senior would say, " I am senior myself, and I am perfect master of " your body and soul, and I shall just do what I like " with 3'ou." 2813. Have you known any instance in which one senior has interfered with another against the execu- tion of what he might think was undue punishment ? — No, I have not known instances, because they are very particular about that ; they do not interfere with each other in that way. 2814. {Sir S. Northcote.) A boy does not look upon his own senior as a person whom he would appeal to jjrotect him from the others ? — It depends. I had a very nice senior, and I should have appealed to him. At least, I should have told him something about it. Souietimes vou are not lucky enough to liave a good senior. 2815. {Lord Devon.) Have you ever known any appeal to the masters from any grievance sustained ? — No, never ; because you mu.st either submit, or leave. You would be literally half killed when you got back again. 2816. How often did the masters come into col- lege, Mr. Ingram, for instance ? — He used to come in regularly at prayer time ; but sometimes he would not come in, perhaps, for two or three days together, except at prayer time. Another time I would sometimes see liim walk through college between 9 and 10 perhaps. He woidd come in, when he did come, not at all regularly, just as it suited him. 2817. {3Ir. Vai((/han.) Did the boys ever resort to the medical man after any of these buffetings ? — I do not know about that. I never heard of any instance. 2818. {Sir S. Northcote.) You were in "the cricket eleven, were you not ? — Yes. 2819. Were you in it after you went into college ? — Yes. 2820. Did you find time to play in games and matches ? — I was obliged to play then. That was part of their rule. I must have played. I was under orders then to play. It was not whether I liked it or not. I was in the eleven, and I had to jilay. Suppose I felt inclined some afternoon not to play, if I did not feel well perhajis, I was obliged to do it whether I liked it or not. It had nothing to do with whether I liked it or not. 2821. Was that the case with all the eleven ? — A good many of them were senior boys. 2822. Were they, although seniors, considered hound by the rules of the eleven to play? — They were not considered bound if they did not wish to play ; but if it were a match, and it was for the good of the school to play, it was rather considered that they should play, unless they had any particular reason against it. I had to go up and practice. We did not play a match every day. I was obliged to do that, but they were not obliged. 2823. {Lord Devon.) Independent of the treat- ment which the junior boys there may have sustained from the seniors as seniors, was there any bullying in the college when you were there. I mean by a big second election irregularly bullying a junior boy, or anything of that sort ? — They would not consider it bullying ; they would take it as a matter of course ; whatever a second election chose to do to a junior is all right and proper, no one questions it. 2824. Would not the senior check anything that we should call bullying on the part of a second election to a junior ? — He might if he took the trouble, if he were passing through. If he liked the junior, or anything of that sort, he might interfere ; if he knew his father, or the junior had any claims on him at all. 2825. {Mr. Vaughan.) He did not consider that he had any official responsibility to interfere ? — No, I do not think so at all. 2826. {L^ord Clarendon.) The monitor would not interfere ? — No, he would interfere if he thought proper, and if not, he would not take any notice. 2827. {Sir S. Northcote.) Did you ever know an instance of a second election being punished for a fault committed by a junior ? — Yes, very often they punish the second election. 3 Q 2 WEST- MINSTER. Mr. W. S. Mejnick. 29 Jan. 1863. 492 PUBLIC SCHOOLS COMMISSION: — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE, WEST- MINSTER. Mr. W. S. Meijrkh. 29 Jan. 1863. 2828. You have known cases of severe punish- ment ?— Well, not what they consider severe punish- ment. I have never seen any punishment, but I suppose it is the usual thing, the racket, or something of that sort. 2829. {Mr. Vaughaii.) You say the racket was applied to the shoulders, was it the edge of the racket ? — Not the edge of the racket. They would, perhaps, give you a little (ouch just between the shoulder blades, which would liurt you very much. 2830. I thought you said they applied it to the shoulder sometimes ? — Generally it was the flat part of the racket ; and generally tiiey would take the sharp end and cut you down on the calves with it. 2831. Not so as to sever the skin or the flesh, I suppose?— So as to bruise it, and to knock the skin off. 2832. {Sir S. A'orfhcotc.) Did they ever draw blood ? — Yes. 2833. {3Ir. Tlwmpson.) With the racket ?— Yes. 2834. Through your clothes ? — Yes ; of course not in great quantities, just knocking the skin off. 283.5. A weal ?— Yes. 2836. {Mr. Twisletnn.) Will you explain the sys- tem by which a boy who might have obtained leave from the master to leave the school-room was still obliged to ask leave of the other boys ?— He was not obliged to ask leave of the other boys — not to leave the school-room for the particular purpose which has been referred to ; but for illness, or any other reason, leave must be asked of several boys after the master has given his permission. When you are in the school-room you would just have to ask the master in whose special form you are for leave for the par- ticular purpose referred to ; but that is the only thing you can do without asking the boys. If you wanted to leave the room in college, even for that particular purpose, they will not let you leave, unless there are three other juniors waiting without any employment, ready to answer '• election ;" you have to ask any second election, and he can give you leave or not, as he likes ; but if j'ou were found out of the room without leave, that would be a great fault. 2837. Did you obtain prizes for athletic exercises in any way before you were in college ? — Yes ; I got three or four. 2838. What were they for ? — For running, jump- ing, throwing the cricket ball, and so on. 2839. How many persons competed with you for the prizes ? — There were 30 in the running. 2840. {Mr. Thompson.) Where did you run ? — • In Vincent Square. 2841. {Mr. Twishfoii.) What besides running ? — Jumpiug. ■; 2842. How many competed with you for jumping ? —10 or 12. 2843. How many competed with you for throwing the cricket ball ? — There were six or seven for that. 2844. Have you tried for those prizes since j^ou have been in college ? — I tried for two or three since I have been in college, and I only won one thing. 2845. What did you win ? — That was a running race, a short race. In all the rest I could not get anywhere. 2846. Do you consider that you were as good as you were before ? — I ought to have been better, but it gives one a distaste for anything. I was perfectly pulled down by it ; I did not take any interest in any- thing. 2847. Were you equally strong, or was it you were unwilling to compete ? — I think it weakens one, too ; I do not think I was so strong. 2848. {Mr. Vaughan.) Would your competitors have been the same boys ? — Of course not all the same, but mostly the same, I think. 2849. Will you tell us what prizes there were for other exercises, besides the running and jumping you have mentioned ? — There were prizes for jumpiug the pole, and long jumping, and throwing the hammer, and ruunina; in sacks. have lessons in one boy in the or in any way 2850. Those were not for strengtli except throwing the hammer, but for agility ? — Yes. 2851. Were there auy for displays of strength ? — Throwing the cricket ball requires some knack and strength. Throwing the hammer requires a great deal of knack as well as strength. 2852. Did you ever win in anything except the cricket ball which required strength as distinct from agility ? — We have only had it for two years. Of course you must be pretty strong, as well as active, to win the hurdle race. 2853. ( Sir S. Northcote.') Was there any fighting in the school ? Did the boys fight at all ? — The under boys did, but that we considered rather below the seniors. 2854. Would it be stopped by the seniors ? — I am speaking of the seniors themselves fighting. No, the seniors would not stop it, nor would the masters. 2855. Was it the practice among the lower boys ? — Were there frequent and regular fights ? — Very seldom. 2856. {Mr. Thompson.) Did you it ? — Yes, I have had .some lessons. 2857. {Mr. Vaughan.) Supposing school was abused by another boy aggrieved, would he never strike him a blow for it ? — Do you mean in college ? 2858. I mean in any part of the scliool ; in college or in the school. I am speaking of the habits of the school in general ? — If the boys were on an equality with each other, then I should think they would most likely fight ; but if the one boy was a senior, and the other was a second election, a third election, or a junior, he would not dare to touch him. 2859. I wish to understand from you how it is that fighting in a .school of that sort is avoided. You said it had fallen very much out of the habit of the school. In the first place I wish to ask whether boys do not resent their injuries by striking each otlier. Would not a stronger boy strike a less sti'ong ? — Yes. 2860. Did not it sometimes happen that a boy would strike another fancying him to be inferior in point of strength, and that boy would turn upon him and strike him again — would not that happen ? — That comes to an ordinary fight ; they would do that, and then exchange two or three blows, and then they would agree to n\eet the next morning in the " milling green " as it is called. That is close by. 2861. What happened then ? — They would fight, and there would be seconds, and a ring, and every- thing regul.ar. 2862. Would that be thought wrong or low ? — No. It would be thought low for two very big boys to fight. It was generally among the lower boys. The big boys thought it low to fight among themselves. 2863. Do they less frequently resort to that ? — Yes. 2864. {Sir S. Northcote.) Does that happen only among the town boys or among the collegers also ? — Among the town boys generally, because it can only happen among the collegers in their separate elections. Each one must fight in his own election. A second election would not fight a junior, that would not be right, because a second election lias a perfect right to make the junior stand up, and to lick him, without taking any trouble about it. 2865. Has the second election a recognized power to lick a junior at any time without there being any offence ?— He has a recognized power over him. He must obey the second election in everything, and submit to everything. 2866. But supposing, without any question of obedience, the boy took to bullying him, and that the junior felt himself aggrieved, would not the junior feel himself at liberty to resent it by striking him ? — • He would not dare to do it. He might strike, but he would get half killed afterwards. 2867. By the seniors ? — No, by the whole body of the second election. He might strike him in the heat of the moment. 2868. Supposing one boy in the second election PUBLIC SCHOOLS COMMISSION : — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 493 saw another boy iu the second election bull3'ing a jmitor in wlunn ho wns interested, his biothoi- perluips, or some rehition ? — He would remonstrate with liim. 2869. lie would not tight with liim ? — lie might ; but I think he would try remonstrance first. They do not like to get divided. 2870. {Mr. ]'iuighuii.) At what point in the school do yon tliink boys l>egiu to shrink from tighting as sometliing barbarous ? — When they get in authorily over others ; when they are in the remove, that is the first point. 2871. {Lord Lyttvlton.) Below that did it often happen in this "milling green " you speak of? — No ; it did not very often happen. I think there were three or four regular lights since I have Ijcen at Westminster, not more. 2872. {Sir S. Northcote.) Then, iu fact, a boy is never kept in check from the exercise of tyrannical power by the fear of l)eing called to account by some other boy ? — I think not at all. 2873. There was one kind of office which you al- luded to, l>ut which you have not described ; I refer to the '• |iut to rights." Wliat were they? — Two boys were appointed to that ; " put to rights chairs," and " put to rights tables." The bny who was " put to riglits chairs," at 2.5 minutes to 10, went to the upper election room and he put chairs for the seniors and for all the three elections ; and as there were no chairs in the upper election room, and the dormitory, they had to run up and down, carrying as many as the}' could. They generally could not carry more than three at a time, up and down those narrow stairs from the dor- mitory, to put them in the upper election room. Of course, all those things took j-ou a long time. You had to be ready by 10 minutes to 10. The " put to rights tables" had to move the tables, to put them i\\ exactly the right position. There was one position appointed for them. Perhaps they would be moved bv the seniors. Ho had to move them, dust them, and see that they were shiny and nice-looking ; and then he had to sweep up the room, and that was always in a dreadful mess. 2874. {Mr. T/ioi/ipsoH.) What time was this? — At 2.5 minutes to 10 it liegan, in the evening. He had to sweep up the room, which took up a good deal of time. 2875. The seniors all this time being there ? — Being in the room, or else in their little partitions in the upper election room. The}' have little boxes where they sit and do their work, or else at the tables outside. " Put to rights tables " had to sweep up the room, and take everything off the table ; and he had to put a Bible on a particular corner of one table, for Mr. Ingrain to read. There was always a second election for the week, appointed to look after the boy who was •' put to rights chairs ;" and also one to look SeeS637. after the "put to rights tables," to see that the tables were all ready and clean. One night, instead of putting the Bilile on the corner of the table, the junior, who could not tiud the Bible at the time, it being rather late, just caught up a Greek Testament that was lying in one of the niches outside iu the passage, and put it on the corner of the table ; and Jlr. Ingram, who always comes in with his own book, read pr.ayers, as usual, out of his own book, so that he had no occasion to use this book, and he never does use it ; but one of the monitors saw that this book was a Greek Testa- ment. So, after prayers, he called the boy who put it there, to him, told him to fetch a stick, made him touch his toes, and he beat him till he broke this great stick over his back. He fell on to a bureau, and staggered out of the room. So I was told by one of the juniors who saw it, who had to fetch the stick for the monitor. He managed to get out of the room, but he was in a dreadful state the next morning. 2876. {3Ir. Thompson.) What election do the monitors belong to ? — The seniors. 2877. And they took it in turns to do this ? — Yes ; the first four who get in are monitors. 2878. Supposing a monitor is negligent of his duty, what appeal is there ; to whom does the ajipeal lie supposing that this monitor, knowing that this Greek Testament had been placed there, had not thought proper to notice it, would there have been any appeal ? — Xo, they could not have said anything about it. 2879. It was his sense of duty alone ? — -Yes ; or perhaps it might not have been the monitor of the night ; it might have been any senior. Any senior who saw it might have done it. 2880. {Mr. J'auff/ian.) The book, I presume, was put there for the purpose of the master's using it if he chose ? — Yes. 2881. So that putting the Greek Testament there was in fact a little piece of fraud on the master ? — Yes. 2882. The master might think that he was supplied in the usual way with a prayer book, when he was supplied in fact with something else, which would not have served his purpose ? — Yes, if he had by chance wanted it. 2883. [Sir S. Northcofe.) In such a case as that do you think that the general feeling of the rest of the college was that such a punishment as that was a shame, or was it thought a matter of course, and did not attract much attention ? — It made all those who were liable to it, feel in great terror. 2884. I mean that the boys generally think that that was a stretch of authority, that it was a thing that was out of the way, and rather a shame as judged by the code of the college ? — Those who were liable to it, thought it was a very severe licking, but they did not think it was out of the way ; they thought he was entitled to it, according to the rules. 288.5. {Mr. Twislelon.) Was the punishment not deemed excessive ? — Not by the seniors. They did not think anything about it ; at least it was taken as a matter of course. Whatever one senior chooses to do, has nothing to do with another senior. 2886. (6'(V S. Northcote.') I suppose some of the seniors are greater tyrants than others ? — Yes ; but if other seniors think so, they do not show it. They will, perhaps, say, " Well, you gave him a good licking." 2887. {Mr. Thompson.) They would not interfere ? —No. 2888. Not even collectively ? — No ; it has never occurred, as far as I know. 2889. There is no one to interfere ; the master still less ? — The master still less ; because JNIr. Ingram is in his own house, and very likely, if he saw it, he would think it was all right ; at least, he would rather not see it. 2890. {Sir S. Northcote.) How ftir was it sup- posed that the masters were cognizant of this system ? — I really do not know, but I fancy they must know sometliing about it. They do not want to know too much, and they do not pretend to know too much ; but they must know it. Perhaps they do not know exactly to what extent those lickings are carried on. They know that they go on, and that the seniors have power to inflict them, whenever they like. 2891. {Lord Clarendon.) Some of the masters were in college themselves? — Some of them. There is only one though, I think, of the present set, Mr. In- gram. His only argument, at least his only feeling seems to be, that it is all regular. I said to him, when I first went into college, that I could not do my work as it was, we had so much to do; and he said, " Well, " all I can say is, you have not got to do nearly so " much as I used to do, when I was a junior." 2892. {Mr. Thompson.) Is there a tradition in the school that things were worse in old times than they are now? — I fancy there is a little. It is natural, I think. Fellows say, when they come down, " Oh, " you do not undergo half what I did when I was a " junior." 2893. ( Sir S. Northcote.) Are there definite things which are said to have been done formerly, and not now ; for instance, was not warming beds a practice in old times ? — You .are li.able to do that now. 2894. I mean warming them by getting into them 3 Q 3 WEST- MINSTER. Mr. W. S. Meiinck ■20 Jan. 1863. 49-i FUCLIC hXHOOLS COMMISSION : —MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. WEST- MINSTER. Mr. \V. S. Meyrick. 29 Jan. 1863. Soe 3ii53. •See 365.5 ; .also 30.57. themselves ? — I have beard that a.s to other public schools:, but I do not know as to Westminster. 2895. It is never done at Westminster now ? — No, I think not ; at least, if a senior wanted his bed warmed, he would tell you to get in and warm it, and von would do it as a matter of course. 2896. (3/r. Thompson.) Is there any cooking now ? — Sometimes, but not exactly cooking ; you have to toast for them. 2897. Have you to fry beefstakes ? — No, not re- gular cooking. That used to be the case. 2898. That must have added a good deal to the hibour of the juniors ?— Yes ; they generally confined themselves to getting the things cooked. They got cold meat, and you had to make a tremendous lot of coffee. 2899. You have the means of making coffee ? — Yes. 2900. In the junior room ? — Yes. 290). There are two rooms, are there not ? — Yes. 2902. Senior and junior ? — Yes. 2903. Under the dormitory ? — Yes. 2904. They were erected in Dean Buckland's time ; perhaps you do not know that ? — No. 290.5 Erected comparatively recently ? — I believe so. 2906. You are aware that they are not part of the old college ? — I did not know that. 2907. {Sir S. Nortlicotc.) A great deal of the la- borious fagging which you have described consists of duties which might be performed, and ought to be performed, by servants. Do you suppose, if servants were appointed, and made to do all these duties, — the calling the boys at the proper time, lighting the fires, cleaning the rooms, putting to rights, lighting gas and putting it out, and other duties of that sort, that college life would become tolerable, or do you think that the amount of bullying and irregular fagging is still such as that even if servants did all these duties college life would be intolerable ? — I think it would be, because it is carried on on such a .system of degradation, and you are told to do things in such a manner, that it is intolerable. 2908. [Lord Lijttelton.) There is only one servant in college, is there ? — There is old College John and young College John, as they call him. 2909. {Lord Clarendon.) For how many boys ? — Forty. 2910. {Sir S. Northrofc.) The number of the severer punishments after all is not very great, or was not very great in your time, was it ? — I think there was a very average quantity of them. 2911. You say there were about five or six canings during the time you were there ? — Yes, but the punishments are so fearful. 2912. I wanted to follow that up. Of those five or six canings, Iioav many should you suppose came from the neglect of offices which ought to be done by servants ? The occasion for those canings would not have arisen, would it, if servants were employed to do the work which the boys were made to do ? — Some of them would not; but I think a great many of them were, if you went to a shop and did not bring the right things back, and that sort of thing. A great deal, of course, arises from the non-performance of duties, which servants would do, if they were in •college. 2913. Then, again, do yon think that the masters, if they were so minded, could put down such a custom as making the boys get up at 3 or 4 o'clock to call the others ? — They must change the whole thing if they attempt anything of that sort. There must Tie an entire revolution in the thing, because they could not stop one thing alone; the senior boys would not stand that at all. 2914. {Mr. Vaughaii.) Why should there not be a prohibition of boys getting up at 3 or 4 o'clock in the morning ; or if they cho.se to get up, that they should at any rate wake themselves ? — There might be a prohibition, but there would be a tremendous row about it. I do not know whether it could be carried out. If it were, it would be frec[\iently broken through by the .seniors ordering juniors to do it again. They would not attend to it much. 2915. You think, in fact, in spite of the masters, the seniors could carry their point if they chose ? — Yes, of course they could, unless the masters were in downright earnest, and proper steps taken to enforce their orders. 2916. You think they would attempt to do so ? — I have no doubt about it. 2917. {Mr. Thompson.) Do you think they would be supported by the old Westminsters ? — I think so, decidedly. 2918. {Sir S. Northcote.) Take an individual instance. The habit of calling " election " is a very trying one. Supposing boys were prohibited from calling " election," and were obliged to call the name of .some iiarticular boy whom they wished to send, and it was made a school offence to call "election," do you think it could be put down by the masters ? — Every one of the upper boys would be up in arms against it. 2919. But do you suppose they cfJuld succeed ? — I really do not know. It must be vigorously carried out. 2920. {Mr. Thompson.) It could not be carried out without some experience ? — I do not know about that. I do not think you could put down one thing alone. I think the whole thing nuist be altered, or else nothing will be done at all. 2921. (Sir S. Northcote.) Would you put an end to fagging altogether ? — I do not know what is best to be done. I should leave that to others. 2922. We want to have your idea. Gould the whole system be altered ? — I do not see why there should not he proper fagging, like there is at every public school. 2923. (Lord Clarendon). Such as the town bo^'S have ? — Yes ; and the thing must be under the guidance of the master, not of the boys. 2924. You do not think there was anything to complain of in the fagging of the town boys ? — No, not at all. 2925. Had the other boys who were your con- temporaries among the juniors the same feeling about the fagging as yourself ; did they feel themselves equally depressed and discouraged ? — Yes ; some of them were idle fellows and did not care about working at all, but they all felt it very hard indeed ; and we used to talk among ourselves, but still I think none of them, if asked, would say that the thing was not everything that is pleasant. They would be afraid for their very lives to say anything against it. It is all very well to talk about it, but you cannot imagine how intolerable the thing is when put in practice ; the little things that arise from those duties which I have described — it is dreadful. 2926. So that you feel yourself perpetually insulted and degraded ? — Yes. 2927. {Mr. Twislrton.) Will yon explain what you mean by "little things?" — The mode of enforcing those things, the mode of telling you. It is not the actually being sent to a shop, but the way of being told to go and fetch things. 2928. {Lord Clarendon.) Will you give us an example. How would you be told to go ? — They would call you and say, " Go and get me a sandwich, " and if you are not back in five minutes, I will lick " you within an inch of your life." Then the great grievance is when you are answering " election." The second election's duty is to see that there are juniors to answer "election," and they call out, " Now then, answer election." When " election " is called, you hear the second election, if he is anywhere near, call out, "Now then, answer election," and he will rush down perhaps when you are half dreSsed early in the morning, if he happen to lie up — and you are not always up at three — I have been dragged out of bed, just put on hastily some clothes, and I have been obliged to run down with a second election after me, with a great towel, threatening at me with it to make me go I'l'ULIC SCHOOLS COJIMISSION: — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 495 I'astcr to answer " election," aud that is intolerable. You would not stand it for long. I think it is wonderful how boys stand it at all; they come out of their cubicles and you have to run up the whole lengtli of it, and if you are not going fast enough, they kick at you or throw soniethiug at you. 2929. {Mr. Vaiujhan.) How old were you when vou went to Weslminster ? — Fourteen. 2930. Had you been to a private school before ? — At the lirst one I went to, (Mr. Newland's), there were, 1 think, about 30, aud then I was with Mr. AVestniacott. He only took a few pupils, about 10. 293 1 . How long were you at the school where there were 30 ? — I was there six years. 2932. What was the age of the eldest class of boys there ? — When I tirst went there were some 17 and 18. 2933. Was there any system of fagging in that school ? — Not at all. 2934. Was there any bullying of any kind in the school ? — No bullying at all. 2935. Was there anything approaching either to fagging or oppression of any kind from those boys of 17 and 18 ? — Not at all. 2936. How old were the younger boys ? — Seven and eight. Most of the boys were going into the army. 2937. Were the masters generally present when the boys were together ? — Yes ; they were always present ; it was only a day school. 2938. Then you were not regularly at school before vou went to Westminster, other than as attending a day-school, in which tlie master sat all the time ? — No. 2939. So that in fact you had no experience of School life in which the boys were together, without the surveillance of a master ? — No ; I had no experi- ence till I went to Westminster. 2940. {Lord Devon.) Is it your belief, putting aside for the tinte the junior election, the opinion of the other three elections Avho were in college, sup- ported the system you have described ? — Yes. 2941. As far as you know, you know no excep- I know no exeei)tiou at all. They admit that I was talking to a friend little while ago, aud he tion it is very hard for a juuior. of mine who was a senior a WEST- MINSTER, Mr. W. S. Meyrick. 29 Jan. 1863. said he thought some of the punishments were most brutal ; he admitted it. His young brother is going to college, aud he said he hoped he would not sutfer wliat he did when he was a junior, and he said he thought the most brutal thing of all was the "tanning in way." 2942. {Lord Li/tteltnii.) You yourself would not have liked to have taken part in enforcing such a system ? — No, I should have had nearly a worse time of it, I thiuk, the year when I got second election, because I should have had all the lickings from seniors for not enforcing it, and I should certainly not have done so, aud there are two or three boys in our junior election, who would not have done it either, I know. 2943. {Mr. J'aiiff/inn.) Have those boys left ? — They will be second elections after Whitsuntide. 2944. Y''ou thiuk tliey are resolved not to carry out the system ? — 1 know two or three are resolved uot to do it, at least so they said. As far as donig their lessons is concerned, the second election are only a few degrees better off than the juniors ; for they are always obliged to be on the alert to run after the juniors, and see that they answer election, and do the other duties I have mentioned. The .second election boys say that they are not much better off than the juniors as far as lessons are con- cerned ; and as the second election must attend upon the seniors themselves aud answer " election " if all the juniors are engaged in doing so, which often hap- pens, the second election pack up their books and go away, if they see the number of juniors running short ; so that really for two whole years a boy's power of learning is very seriously interfered with ; it is stopped entirely for one year, while a junior, and is not very much better during the second. Victoria Street, Tuesday, 3d February 1863. Earl of Clarendon. Earl of Devon. Lord Lyttelton. Sir Stafford Northcote, Bart. Hon. Edward Twisleton. Rev. W. H. Thompson. H. Halford Vaughan, Esq. The earl OF CLARENDON in the Chair. Mr. George Thomas Michael O'Brien called in and examined. 2945. {Lord Clarendon.) How long have you been at Westminster ? — I shall have been there live years at the end of this half. 2946. The first year you were a town boy ? — TTes. 2947. Then you have been four years in college ? — I shall have been four years in college at the end of this half. 2948. How long were you a junior in the college ? — A year. 2949. We have received some evidence witli respect to the fagging in college from the father of a boy who is about to leave Westminster, and as we wish to have some information on the same subject from one of the senior boys there, we have requested you to come here to-day. Perhaps the best way of giving us the infor- mation we desire would be for you to tell us what was the practice the year you were a junior, and what were the duties you were called upon to do by the upper form aud the second election. Will you go through a whole week, beginning at the Sunday evening ? — I recollect the general scheme of what I had to do, that a certain number of days in the week — it came about three days in a fortnight — I had to get up in the morning to light the fires, the same as it is now. 2950. At what hour ? — Sometimes as early as four o'clock, aud sometimes at half-past three. It was not often at half-past three, but very often at four. That was about three times in a fortnight. Then I went up school like the otlier fellows, and was generally fagged through the day, if anybody wanted anything. Then in the evening I attended to the fire and got my seniors' tea, if they wanted it, and brought them anything they might happen to want. 2951. Y''ou had to be up three times a fortnight at half-past three o'clock in the morning ? — Yes, that was the earliest. It depended on what time the 3Q 4 Mr. G. T. M. O'Brien. 3 Feb. 1863. See 3481, 3i98, &c. 490 PUBLIC SCHOOLS COMMISSION :— MINUTES' OF EVIDENCE. WEST- inNSTER. Mr. G. T M. O'Brien. 3 Feb. 1863. senior wnnted to get \\\). You would liave to got up lialf ail liour before, iu order to have the fire lighted liy the time thej came down. 29.j2. The senior.*, I suppose, wished to be called at ditiercnt times ? — Yes. 2953. So that when you got up at half-past three it was not of much use going to bed again ? — No, you did not go to bed again. 2954. Then you got their lireakfast ?— No, you might have breakfast in hall, but they might want some tea while they were working, and you made them that tea if they wanted it. 2955. You were called upon to fag or to do anything that was wanted throughout tlie day ? — Yes. 2956. In what way "throughout the day"? — If a senior wanted a book from the bookseller's or a racket ball, or anything of tliat sort, he would send you, or perhaps a town boy, but if he was in college he could only send you. I'lie seniors have a right to fag the town boys also, so you do not get quite so much fagging during the day. 2957. You were always in waiting for whatever the seniors might want ? — You went to the games and so on. You were not obliged to stay in college for that, except that one fellow is always obliged to be in college. 2958. What for ? — Tiiat was a rule made by the master, I believe, partly, that there should be some- body to answer the bell if anybody came down into college, because they do not keep a servant there ; that if you came down to see anybody there should be some one to tell you where to look for him. 2959. Is there no tagging at games ? — Yes, there is fagging at cricket, but the Queen's scholars do not get fagged at cricket, only the town boys. There is another fagging at games, which they call " picking up at rackets." You have to run after the racket balls. The Queen's scholars are exempted from that. 2960. Do the town boys ftig for the Queen's scho- lars ? — Yes. 2961. In the evening what fagging is a junior compelled to do ? — You had to get your senior's tea, and if he wanted it j'ou had to get him writing paper, or anything of that sort, and when he went up to wash you would have to take up his hot water. 2962. Had you to clean his room, or to empty the slops ? — No ; that is done by College John, as they call him. 2963. How many servants were kept there ? — There are two bedmakers and two men. 2964. They were employed for the whole of the college -Yes. 2965. What was the number in the college ? — Forty. I do not mean to say that you would not have occasionally to empty your senior's place, and you might have to do that, but the regular doing up of the dilferent rooms was done by the servants in the morning. If your senior happened to wash his hands twice, if he came up in the middle of the dnj, you had to empty it and bring it back, but yon had not to clean out the place. 2966. Getting up early in the way you have de- scribed, and being at the call of the senior during the whole of the day, was there any time for preparing your lessons ? — -Yes ; if you got up early in the morn- ing that was a very good opportunity, if you had a mind to do it, because the actual time which you were fagging would not be very long. You would make the seniors their tea ; they would call you once or twice, perhaps, and you would have to go up every hour to call the fellows in the dormitoiy, but that would not take more than five minutes altogether. You would have several Ifours in the day to work if you liked. 2967. {Mr. Tivishton.) At what time did you go to bed ?— At 10. 2968. {Lord Chtrciidon.') What are those repeated calls for ? — Different fellows want to get up at different times. 2969. You mean calling them to get up ? — Yes. 2970. Could you say that, being interrupted in that way, was advantageous for reading ? — No ; Init they perhai^s might do rather more work than if they had been lying in bed all the time. 2971. {Mr. Twisleton.) How old were you at this time when you had to get up at this hour ? — I was about 15. 2972. You went to bed at 10.— Yes. 2973. Do you coneider that you would have been tolerably fresh for work at half-past 3 or 4 o'clock in the morning ? — Not if it happened every day, but I did not feel any bad effects from it. I got my remove into the sixlh ihe half I was junior, and I ascribe it a good deal to the work I did on those mornings. 2974. You, as a matter of fact, did work in the morning ? — Yes ; I got my remove in the sixth while I was a junior. 2975. You did work in the morning between 4 and 6 ? — -Yes. 2976. {Mr. T/iompsoii.) Is it a common case for boys to get their remove, then ? — It is not a common case for a junior to get into the sixth in that way. 2977. {Lord Claretidon.) What were the punish- ments that were inflicted, supposing a junior did not do his duty to the satisfaction of his senior ? — He was not always jninished. When he was punished, he would have his ears boxed. 2978. There were different sorts of punishments, were there not ; one was buckhorsing ! — Yes. 2979. {Lord Lytlelton.) That was boxing the ears, was it ? — Yes. 2980. {Lord Clarendon.) Buckhorsing was rather severe, was it not 'i — That depended on circumstances. Of course, you could hurt a fellow very much, but not so much as with your fists. 2981. But it was done leveral times, was it not, backwards and forwards ? — It was not confined to one side. I got buckhorsed pretty often. It did not do me finy permanent injury. Of course, it stung at the time. 2982. {Mr. Vaughan.) Do you think that at that time you always deserved it ? — Sometimes I did, and sometimes I did not. 2983. {Lord Clarendon.) Tanning is a much .severer punishment, is it not ? — Yes ; but a junior would hardly ever come in for that ; it would lie more the second election. That would only be for a breach of school discipline of some sort or other. A junior has very little to do with that, and he is not likely to commit any breach of discipline in that way. 2984. Was it only for breaches of school discipline that tanning was inflicted ? — Yes, certainly, you would not get tanned for any trifling thing. You would not tan your junior for any trifling thing, certainly not. 2985. What were the breaches of school discipline for which tanning was inflicted ? — A breacli of school discipline would be, for instance, if a boy drank too much, if he went out of bounds, or was smoking, or in a case of bullying, or .anything of that sort. He would get tanned for that, but not if he brought you a bad cup of tea, or anything of that sort. That is what I mean by breaches of school discipline. 2986. {Mr. Twisleton.) Were you never tanned in your first year ? — No, I was never tanned ; I have been buckhorsed, but never tanned. 2987. {3Ir. Vai((j]ian.) Was there ever such a thing as a general tanning for habitual negligence on the part of the juniors ? — No, I never remember a junior being tanned. 2988. Or the juniors generally being tanned ?— I remember the juniors once having their ears boxed all round. 2989. But I mean the specific punishment called tanning ? — Tanning is with a stick or racket. I never remember a junior being tanned with a stick or racket. 2990. {Sir S. Northcote.) Lord Clarendon is re- ferring to what is called tanning in way ? — That is a diflerent thing. That I think was very much nom- PUBLIC SCHOOIS COMMISSION: — MINUTES OP EVIDENCE. 497 inal. I ilo not think boys evor were kicked so as to be hurt, though in theory it was part of the thing. 2991. AVill you describe tanning in way ? — That is a punislimcnt for a junior. 2992. {Lord Clarendon.) That is the tanning I was speaking about which you said was not inflicted on a junior ? — I beg your Lordship's pardon ; by tan- ning I meant licking with a racket or a stick, as opjiosed to buckliorsing. Tanning in way is buck- horsing ; it is" kicking too, but then a fellow never docs get kicked as a matter of fact. 2993. {Mr. Twisleton.) Will you describe tanning in way ? — The boy goes and stands in the way. 2994. What is " way " ? — It is the place where we wash. The only diflerence between that and being buckhorsed, as we call it, was that it was a more formal thing. I do not think, as a matter of fact, the fellow ever did get kicked, but he got buckhorsed. There were several second elections by, and it was made more of a business of, but as a punishment I do not think it is anything more than buckhorsing. 2995. {Lord Clarendon.) Was not the boy obliged to stand with one foot up upon the sink, and then to be kicked behind ? — He might be obliged to stand up, Dut it was not necessarily so. I believe that was the old thing. I have been tanned in way myself, and I was not kicked. Just as I was going up to the place, the fellow said, " that will do," and he ran and buck- horsed me. 2996. Was there not a tanning of this sort ordered for the juniors because they had been negligent in supplj'ing an unlimited quantity of stationery in the bureaus ? — Yes ; I remember being tanned in way for that ; not for not having an unlimited quantity, but for having put none at all in for some time. 2997. When you were tanned for that, what did you h.ave to undergo ? — I got a good many buckhors- ings on the ears, both sides ; that is all. 2998. You were not kicked ? — No, I was not. I believe I might have been, and certainly it is the old idea ; I might have been kicked, but as a matter of fact I was not. I have known of one feUow being kicked, and only one. ' 2999. {T^ord Devon.) Ouly one during your own time, whether as junior, second election, or senior ? — Yes. 3000. Was he kicked in the way which Lord Clarendon has described ? — I cannot say. I did not see it myself. 3001. {Mr. Vaughan.) Is it not part of the pun- ishment ? — It is supposed to be part of the punish- ment. 3002. {Lord Devon.) During what period of your time did it take place ? — Just as I became a senior, after that we stopped it. 3003. {Sir S. Northcote.) Was he much hurt? — He was not. 3004. Then why did you stop it ? — There was a general feeling against it; some of the fellows in our election did not like it. 3005. It was not stopped in consequence of that particular boy being much hurt ? — No. I only knew that he had been kicked on inquiring just now whether any junior in our year had been kicked. 3006. {Mr. Vaughan.) Did not the standing in that way always expose a boy to the chance of being kicked in the' fore part of his person as well as behind ? — No, never. He stood with his back to you. 3007. The leg being lifted up, did it not necessarily expose the fore part of his person to the kick ? — No ; I should say not. 3008. How could a boy who might not wish to do that be sure of not kicking him before instead of behind, if he took a run at him and kicked him from behind when his leg was lifted up ? — He could "not exactly; but the time I was tanned in way, I know, I went in. The sink is in the middle of the place, and I was walking up to it, the second election was next to the door, and he said, " that will do," before I got to the thing. 3009. That was when it was not carried into effect. 1, WEST- MINSTEC. Mr. G. T. M. O'Brien. But supposing the theory of it was acted up to ? — I daresay it might hurt the boy considerably. 3010. {Mr. Thompson.) Do you consider that the punishment in that form is altogether obsolete ? — Yes, I think so, decidedly. 301 1 . You never heard of it yourself ? — No, except 3 Feb. 1863 in this one case of a boy being kicked, and then for- — — __ tunately he was not hurt. 3012. Was he kicked in the fashion alluded to ? — That I cannot say ; I did not see it myself. 3013. {Sir S. Northcote.) That is within the last twelvemonth ?— Yes. 3014. {Lord Clarendon.) Is there another form of punishment, hitting on the calves of the leg with a racket ? — Yes, or anywhere ; not particularly about the calves of the legs. 3015. And with the top of the cap on the hand, laying your hand down on the table, and hitting with the sharp sides of the cap, is not that a punishment used ? — It is generally used by helps, who are helping town boys into college. If they are juniors or second elections, they are not allowed to use a racket to lick them with, and they lick them with their caps or books. 3016. Or paper knives ? — I do not think with paper knives ; I have not seen any. I know that is a punishment. It is a punishment which a senior would not use, because it would not be necessary, and the under elections only use it because they are restricted from any other. 3017. Whom do they use it to ? — To the town boys whom they may be helping into college. Every town boy, when he tries for college, has a help. This help has to see that he does a certain amount of work, and if he does not do it, he licks him occasionally at discretion. If the help happens to be a second elec- tion or a junior, he is not allowed to use a racket or a stick, and therefore they lick them with a cap or a book. 3018. {Mr. Thompson.) Is it considered absolutely necessary that they should lick them ? — If they can- not get them to do any work. 3019. {Sir S. Northcote.) If they do not find the motive of wishing to get into college is a sufficient stimulus to a boy to work, they punish him ? — Some- times not. 3020. {Mr. Thompson.) It is entirely a voluntary understanding between a boy and his pupil. A boy is not obliged to have a help, is he ? — No. 3021. {Mr. Twisleton.) Would a boy have much chance of getting into college if he had not a help ? — ■ Very little chance, I should think. He might, if he was a sharp boy, and had been some years as a town boy, and had seen how the ch.allenge9 had been conducted. He might then, but otherwise he would not, because there are a great many matters of form. It is not mere knowledge. You have to ask questions in a certain way, and you cannot do this without knowing something about it. 3022. There is a kind of moral necessity for boys generally who intend to stand for college to have helps ? — It would be very presumptuous not. 3023. {3Ir. Thwnpson.) Can a boy change his help ? — Yes. 3024. {Sir S. Northcote.) Has the help any par- ticular interest in getting the boy whom he is helping into college ? — Yes ; he gets 5/. worth of books if he gets him in. 3025. {Mr. Thompson.) So in fact it is the same motive which induces a jockey to flog his horse ? — Yes ; or a schoolmaster to flog his pupils. 3026. {Lord Clarendon.) Is the help not paid if he does not get him in ? — No. That is a new rule. He used to be paid whether he got him in or not, but now it has been very much cut down. 3027. {Mr. Thompson.) How old is the boy gene- rally who acts as help ?— He may be any age. He may be junior, second election, third election, or senior, but a senior hardly ever thinks it worth his while to help. 3R ids PUBLIC SCHOOLS COMMISSION; — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. Vy'EST- MINSTER. il/r. G. T. 31. O'Bikn. 3 Feb. 1863. 3028. {Lord Clarendon.) Have the third election the power of fagging ? — Yes. 3029. The same powers that the seniors have ? — Their authority is inferior to tlie seniors. They can fa!j within tlieir proper limits just the same as the seniors, but the seniors have a prior caU. 3030. The second election are intermediate between those who are fags and those who are not fags ? — Yes ; they have to see that the fags do their seniors' work. 3031. Is that a matter which interrupts their reading very much, do you think ? — No, I should think not. They just give their general directions at the time they come into college. They have little to do with them afterwards, except just to look after them from time to time. 3032. It is the business of the second election to tell the juniors what they have to do, to explain their duties to them ? — Yes. 3033. And if the juniors are negligent, the second election are responsible ? — Yes, for many things. 3034. If tliat negligence arises from their neglecting to inform them ? — Yes. 3035. {Sir S. K'orthcote.) How long has that change in the mode of paying the helps existed ? — I do not know ; within the last ten years, I think. It was long before my time. 3036. {Lord Clarendon.) What punishments are inflicted on the second election, if they are negligent, by the seniors ? — They would be tanned with a stick or racket. 3037. Is not the beating with the stick sometimes very severe ? — I have seen a very severe thrashing. At the same time, that makes them much less fre- quent. 3038. {3Ir. Thompson.) How many blows have you seen ? — I daresay I have seen eight. 3039. Would you call that a severe licking ? — It would be quite enough if you got it hard. 3040. {Lord Lyttellon.) Did you ever know of a stick broken over the back of one of these boys ? — I have only seen a stick regularly broken once. That was not by a Queen's scholar, although it was in college. 3041. Was that a junior who put a Greek Testa- ment instead of a Bible on the table ? — No ; that fellow I licked. 3042. Did not you break a stick at it ?— No. The fact was, it was a tliinnish walking-stick. It was broken before, and my additional breaking of it only broke it to that extent that tlie owner could use it afterwards, which he did. 3043. {Lord Devon.) Now to commence the day, as to the duties of the " call." There are two calls, are there not, an upstairs call and a downstairs call ? —Yes. 3044. Do both boys get up at four o'clock ? — No ; the upstairs call gets up at 6 o'clock. 3045. AVhat are the duties of the downstairs call ? He has to light the fire and to call the boys up to 6 o'clock, when the upstairs call relieves him of that part of his work. 3046. Then how many boys has the downstairs call to call, the two senior elections ? — As many as want to get up. It is generally only the seniors. 3047. Supposing a second election was to tell him to call him, would he be bound to do so ? — No ; it is only the senior election that can command the down- stairs call. 3048. Supposing that each of the 10 or 12 members of the second election wished to be called at diiferent times, he has of course to go to the cubicle of each at that particular time? — Yes. 3049. Has he to call each individual more than once ? — If he requires to be called. 3050. Do you recollect instances of an individual saying " Call me every lialf hour from 4 o'clock to " half-past 7 " ? — Not quite in those limits. I have known him say, " I want to get up at 6, but if I do " not get up then, call me everv h.-Jf hour till I do get " up." 3051. You never knew an instance in which that process commenced at 4 and continued till half-past 7 ? — No ; it is possible, but I do not know of it. 3052. If done, would that be a sort of vexatious annoyance to the downstairs call, wliich public opinion would not support ? — It would be thought rather a nuisance, rather frivolous. Of course, if it was done with a view to being a vexation, it would be con- demned. 3053. {Mr. Twisleton.) If it was merely the laziness of the senior ? — Yes ; I think if he was called every half hour for five or six days he would think there was no good in being called, and ho would not be called any more. 3054. {Lord Devon.) Then at 6 o'clock downstairs call is relieved by upstairs call r — Yes, so far as the duty of calling is concerned. He has nothing to do in the dormitory. 3055. Are each of tlnjm during that time liable to be summoned by the call of " clock ?" — No ; not up- stairs call. 3056. But downstairs call may be called upon as often as anyone of the two senior elections chooses to callout "clock"?— Yes. 3057. Practically, when you were a junior, were you ever left ten minutes without having been sum- moned by the word " clock ;" I mean in the morn- ing ? — Yes, I should say so. I do not know that I should think the morning a time when " clock " was more particularly called than at some other parts of the day, because supposing jon got up at 5, and sat down to work at Homer, you would not want every ten lines to know what the time was, you would know pretty well, and there were the chimes. It is only when you do not happen to know at all what the time is. 3058. {Lord Lyttellon!) If a senior boy had a watch of his own, would he look at his watch, or call " clock"? — He would look at his watch. 3059. {Lord Devon.) Practically, have you known any instances of tyrannical vexatious interference with the juniors' time by frequent calls of " clock " on the part of the senior or second election, when the person who was calling had a watch in his pocket ? — I cannot say I have. 3060. Would it surprise you to have heard that that system existed ?— It would surprise me to hear that a fellow who had a watch in his pocket was foolish enough to call " clock" if he thought his watch was' right. 3061. Do you know of any instance of its being done for the purpose of bullying ? — It could only be done for the purpose of vexing, and it is such a petty vexation that I think it is hardly likely to be put into practice. 3062. You are not aware of such a thing ? — No. 3063. {Mr. Vaughan.) Is it more common or not for boys in that part of the school to have watches ? — I do not know exactly. I daresay it is pretty well divided. Your watch may be out of order. 3064. {Mr. Thompson.) They are expected to keep the time accurately, are they ? — Yes. 3065. It is part of their duties ? — Yes. 3066. By the Westminster clock ? — ^Yes, or the Abbey clock. 3067. {T^ordLyttelton.) The senioi-s call " election" when they want a fag ? — Yes. 3068. Do you say that the time of a junior is not seriously interfered with by the frequent call of ""election"? — I did not say that. I was speaking with reference to the call of " clock." 3069. I mean the general call of election ? — Yes, I dare say their time is interfered with to a certain extent. There is this difference between " election " and " clock," that if " clock " is called you only have to look down at your watch and halloa it 5ut, and if " election" is called you have to go right away and see what he wants, and do it, so that it is a much more serious interference. 3070. Should you say a boy's time is incessantly interfered with ? — I should not say incessantly. PUBLIC SCHOOLS COMMISSION :— MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 49a 3071. {Lord Clarendon.) Would you not say, although you obtained your remove the iii-st year, that the lust year of a junior is wasted? — I should say there is a good deal that is calculated to waste time. 3072. The fact is that that year, which is generally from the time a boy is 15 to 16, is as good as lost to him ? — Not quite that ; but as far as learning is con- cerned, I daresay it is a good deal wasted. 3073. (Mr. Thompson.) You would say it could be much better employed under another system ? — I dare saj' it could, as far as mere learning is concerned, but of course the question of the advantages or disadvan- tages of fagging is not peculiar to Westminster. The general question applies as well to every other school where fagging is recognized, and each special case would involve a question oi degree. 3074. {Mr. Vaughan.) Do the boys who call " clock " sit on the side of the building the windows of which look on the same point ? — Yes ; all the rooms are ranged along college, and they look in one direc- tion. 307o. Could a clock be put up so that every boy could see it ? — There is a clock in the under election room now for the juniors to answer from. 3076. I am speaking of the seniors who call ? — Yes. 3077. {Mr. Thompson.) Is there a clock in the seniors' room, too ? — No. 3078. {31r. Vaughan.) Is there any point in the building where a clock could be put up, so as to dis- pense with the calling of " clock ?" — No. It might be put in tlie dormitory, but not in the rooms where the boys sat in the daytime, because there are three rooms, in one of which the upper election, and in another the under election sat, and they are separated by tlie third election room, which is kept for books and different things. There is a common wall, which runs along, and it is at such an angle that you cannot see any one from the two rooms. 3079. To give all the seniors a sight of the time, it would necessitate a clock in how many rooms ? — Two. There is one, but I think another would be necessary. 3080. That would entirely remove all necessity for calling " clock," would it ? — Yes. 3081. {Mr. Thompson.) Do the two other elections sit together ? — Y'es ; they have put up what they call " boxes," in which two sit, and generally seniors sit with seniors, and third elections with third elections, and sometimes not. I sit with a third election. 3082. (^i> S. Northcote.) Do you think if there were more servants in college, or if the servants were there more regularly in attendance, that it would be easy to dispense with a good deal of this fagging ? — I have no doubt about that, of course. If there is work to be done, and you have more people to do it, of course they will have less to do. 3083. Does it not strike you that a great deal of the fag's work could be more properly done by ser- vants ? — Y'^es, I think so. 3084. Perhaps you would mention those parts which you think ought to be done by servants ? — I think lighting the fire ought to be the servant's duty. 3085. {Mr. Tunslcton.) Lighting tie gas ? — Y''es, and that sort of thing. 3086. {Sir S. Northcote.) Arranging the chairs and tables ? — Yes, to be sure, that ought to be done by them. 3087. {Mr. Thompson.) The phrase " put to rights chairs " must have first arisen when the alterations were made in the cloisters by Dr. Buckland ? — I do not know, I am sure. 3088. Because it only applies to those two rooms, which had no existence before Dr. Buckland's time ? —Yes. 3089. So that the system of fagging is elastic, and adapts itself to altered circumstances ? — Yes. 3090. {Sir S. Northcote.) With regard to the calling, if the calling of the boys by juniors was given np, at what hours would the boya be naturally called by the servants ? — They would want to be called at the same hours. 3091. I do not mean what hour they want to be called, but at what hour would they be called ? — I am sure I do not know. I suppose the servant would call you at whatever time you liked. 3092. Is there any hour at which the College John does call you now ? — He never calls us. He comes to clean the boots at half-past 6. 3093. And then he comes in ? — Y'es ; he unlocks college, comes in, gets the boots, cleans them, and puts them back. 3094. That would be the time at which he might naturally call the boys ?— That might or might not be. When the system was altered, you might settle what hour you liked. 3095. Do the masters rely upon the boys getting up entirely of themselves, or do they provide that they shall be called at a certain time? — No, there is nothing of that. 3096. Do you think that half-past 6 would be a suffi- cient early hour, generally speaking, for the boys to bo called ? — No ; I should say not for the seniors. They have a good deal of work to do, additional work to their form work, and they have election work to take up, which requires a good deal of time. 3097. How often do you think a senior really requires to get up before half-past 6 ? — I have got up every day this half, except one, before that time. 3098. How early ?— At 5 o'clock. 3099. Do you not think that a senior who really wants to get up for purposes of that sort might have an alarum ? — He might, but there would be so many alarums that they would wake everybody else who did not want to be waked. 3100. {Mr. Thompson.) Are not the juniors al- lowed to have an alarum ? — Yes, but they keep it covered up as far as they can, and it is at the far end of the dormitory. 3101. {Lord Clarendon.) How do you always make it secure that you are woke at the time you ordered ? 3102. {Mr. Twisletofi.) You thrash the junior if he does not call you? — The junior always does wake me. 3103. (Mr. Vaughan.) Would not the habit which helps to wake a junior apply to a senior who was habitually doing it for a length of time ; would he not naturally wake ? — I do not know, I am sure. He might, but at the same time it might tire him to that extent that he would require additional waking. 3104. Have you generally not awaked till you were called ? — Yes. 3105. (Sir S. Northcote.) Can you justify the sys- tem of making the juniors get up in a matter in which they have no interest ? — No ; except from necessity, and it may do them good. I do not know. I never objected to it very much myself when I was a junior. 3106. That is another question. A boy might not object to it, but, as a system, do you think it is a right and good system, that the juniors should bei obliged to get up in a matter in which they have no interest at so early an hour as half-past 3 or 4 ? — Of course, in none of the fagging have the fags any interest, excopt that it does them good, and they look forward to the time at which they shall have similar advantages themselves. They have all that much interest in their present fagging. 3107. Y''ou do not distinguish between ordinary fagging and such fagging as that ? — They would have it just the same when they were seniors. 3108. {31r. Vaughan.) You are not permitted to sit up beyond a certain hour at night, are you ? — No. 3109. What hour is that ? — Eleven. 3110. What is the hour at which you go actually to bed when working hardest ; I am speaking of the seniors ? — Those who would get up early would, of course, go to bed earlier. 3111. Then they go to bed early, in fact, in order that they may be working early? — Y''es. 3112. I suppose if they sat up till 11, that would 3E 2 WEST- MINSTER. Mr. G. T. M. O^Brien. 3 Feb. 1853 coo PUBLIC SCHOOLS COMMISSION: — MKCTES OF EVIDE^'CE. "WEST- MINSTER. Mr. G. T. M. O'Brien. 3 Feb. 1863. save them at least an hour iu the morning ? — Although sitting up till 11 would give them an hour mors than sitting up till 10, still I question their doing so much work in the long run as they would if they went to bed at 10, and got up an hour earlier ; and I also imagine it would in the long run be more prejudicial to their health. • 3113. (Sir S. Northcote.) Is a junior who has to call in the morning allowed to go to bed any earlier ? — No ; he goes to bed at 10 o'clock. 3114. He would not be allowed to go sooner ? — He might get leave ; I do not know. It would be a matter for the master. 3115. {Mr. Twisleton.) Practically he does not go to bed earlier ? — No, he never has asked leave. 3116. {Lord Claroidon.) You said just now that some of these punishments were inflicted for bullying. What is considered bullying ? — No, I said it might be. I said they would come under the general term of breach of school discipline, for instance a boy fagging another in a way he had no right to do. 3117. What is considered bullying at Westminster ? There was a fellow put in a cupboard and smoked. 3118. How was he smoked — with brimstone? — No with brown paper and wood and one thing and the other. 3119. How long ago was that ? — I do not know. It was not in college. 3120. What was done ? — The boy was sent away. 3121. Who was, the boy who shut up the other ? — Yes. 3122. (il/r. Twisleton.) How long ago was that ? — It was some time ago. 3123. Since you have been in college ? — Yes. 3124. {Mr. Thompson.) Was it one big boy who shut up one little boy, or several boys combined ? — It was done by several boys. It was one boy who planned it and got them to do it. 3125. What liad the unfortunate boy done ? — No- thing, I think. That was the reason why it was con- sidered bullying. 3126. {Lord Clarendon.) If he had done anything very wrong it would not have been bullying ? — Not such wanton bullying. 3127. (Mr. Thompson.) Was the boy much worse for it ? — I do not think he was much worse, but he might have been. 3128. {Lord Lyftelton.) Is this a correct state- ment, "Each boy has to carry about with him in his " college waistcoat, two pieces of india-rubber, two " pieces of gutta percha, ditto of sealing wax, two " pencils, two pieces of penstring, two wedges, two " knives, two dips (little ink bottles) an unlimited quan- " tity of note paper, small and large size, ditto ditto of " quarterns (square pieces of paper) ditto ditto pens "? — He does not carry the quarterns and pens about in his pocket. There is one thing you have left out, which is two dip corks. He does not carry the paper about. 3129. Where does he carry the paper. Is not he required to find paper very often ? — He would carry it in his portfolio ; when he went up school he would take a portfolio up. 3130. {3Ir. Thompson.) He would spoil the paper if he had it in his pocket ? — Yes. 3131. (Lord Lijttelton.) Do you think it possible that a junior in the course of the school time should be obliged to spend as much as 21. or 3/. in providing quarterns ? — No, because the seniors do not get their own things and use them, and then require the juniors to supply in addition. The senior always allows liis junior to get all his stationery, and the third and second election generally will do so. The junior has more than his own stock. 3132. {Mr. Twisleton.) What did you as a junior have to pay for this stationery and other things ? It goes down in the bill. I think a parcel of paper and pens costs Is. 8d. ; it is a good large parcel. 3133. When you were a junior what was your ex- pense in any half-year ?~I could Iiardly say. 3134. As much as 1/. or 21. ? — ^No, nothing at all like that; but I dare say I could get my bills. They went down in the books. 3135. (Mr. Thompson.) Is it any additional ex- pense to a boy to be a junior ? — No, I should say not. 3136. His duties as a junior would not bring any additional expense ? — He has got to get about two or three boxes of matches in a year at about a penny each. 3137. And penknives ? — He has a penknife of his own. He has his senior's penknife and those of the second and third election. 3138. They are not his own penknives ? — Yes, one is his own. He may have two if he likes. 3139. And he must have one for another boy ?— Yes, he always has to have two about with him. 3140. {Sir S. Northcote.) If he gives them up are they returned to him ? — Yes. 3141. {Mr. Vaughan.) Should you say that there is carried out a system by which practically the junior gets all that he is required to give out ? — Yes, I should saj- so as nearly as possible. 3142. Without personal expense I mean ? — Yes. 3143. {Lord Clarendon.) Has he not to buy it ? — No. It does sometimes happen. I had some expence myself. I think I was the only one. That arose from my having no second election's or third election's things. 3144. {Lord Lyttelton.) How does he get them if he does not buy them ? — He has his own things, which come to a certain amount, and he has his senior's as a matter of course. 3145. {Lord Clarendon.) How has he got his senior's ? — His senior always says, " You get my " things from Ginger's, the stationer's," and he gets them and supplies the senior with them whenever he wants them. 3146. {Sir S. Northcote.) Is it the theory that each boy, senior, junior, or second election has, we will say, one penknife ? — Yes. 3147. And instead of the senior keeping his own penknife, the third election his, and the second elec- tion his, the junior is supposed to keep them all, and to have them always produceable ? — Yes. Sometimes the third and second elections do not give them theirs ; but as a general rule they do. 3148. He is bound not only to produce them to his own senior and to his own second election, but to anyone ? — Yes. 3149. {Lord Clarendon.) Who may take them ? — Yes. 3150. {Lord Lyttelton.) Is he bound to keep his bureau open ? — Yes ; he is allowed some private drawers, but those in which he is supposed to expose pens, paper, &c., are open. 3151. (Sir S. Northcote.) Supposing the boy to whom he gives the penknife, and who is not his own senior, does not return it to him, is that his loss ? — Yes. 3152. He must get another ? — Yes. 3153. Does that frequently happen ? — Yes, I dare say it does. Not very frequently I should think. 3154. {Lord Devon.) For how many is the boy to be supplied with paper, for his own senior only, or for the two senior elections ? — Anybody who calls for it. 3155. Supposing 20 boys, one after the other, came to him for quarterns, would he be bound to keep an unlimited supply ? — Yes. Of course that would only be in theory; because if there are a number of juniors in a room, each senior would go to his own junior, or if you went to another by chance, you would not all go to the same fellow, of course. 3156. Has the third election any particular rela- tion to any junior, because each senior has a junior ? —No. 3157. Besides that the senior has a second election, has he not ? — Yes. 3158. But the third election is not particularly nojir.ected either with any one senior or any junior ? —No. PUBUC SCHOOLS COMMISSION: — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 501 31o9. {Lord Clarendon.) What is the practice as to touching the drawers every time that you go up school and placing some stationery in it ? — When you go uj) school you put a pea and a quartern into the drawer, in order that anybody who wants them, the master or a senior, may take them out. 3160. Is that rule strictly enforced ? — Yes, it is intended to be. I think it is always kept. 3161. If a junior was to miss putting in paper, if he was in a hurry, or anything of that sort, would he be punished for it ? — If he were to miss it fre- quently. I question whether he would be punished if he forgot it once. 3162. You say that it is in the interest of the masters that this is done, as well as of the boys ? — The master might send for paper out of the drawer. 3163. Has he ever done so ? — Yes. 3164. The existence of this drawer is recognized by him ? — Yes ; he knows it ; he cannot help seeing it. 3165. (Lord Devon.) Where is it ; is it near the monitor's seat ? — Yes, just in front of the monitor's seat. It is placed where the master's rods are kept, iu the very middle of the school. 3166. {Lord Lvttelton.) Has a junior ever to call a number of bigger boys at the same time ? — Yes, I dare say he would have to do so. 3167. Do they all expect to be called individually at the same time ? — As far as it is possible. 3168. {Mr. Vatighan.) Is it at all times in the year that the culling is required in the early morning? — Not so early in summer, but towards the end of the last half, when the play takes up a certain amount of time in the evening, and you have to do your work iu the morning. In the summer, when you only have the ordinary form work, the ordinary day is enough. 3169. Do you consider that it is one of the effects of the play that it takes up so much of the time of the boys as to oblige them to work extra hours in the morning ? — It obliges some to work if they want to keep quite up to the mark. 3170. [Lord Devon.) For how many weeks does that apply ; a month or six weeks ? — It applies for all this half. 3171. I mean with reference to the special prepara- tion for the play ? — I should say for the latter end of that half. 3172. This half, I suppose, the boys who have helps are coming into college ? — No ; they do not come into college, the helps go to them up school. 3173. {Lord Clarendon.) Are they very strict about the form in which the pleasure of the seniors is taken. I mean as to " tenor" saying " will you please " to take anything by orders " ? If a boy was to put it in a different form, such as, " have you anything to '■ order," would he be licked for that ? — I should say certainly not. If he came up and asked in an impu- dent way he would have to be reminded that he ought to ask properly. There is no particular form for that. There is a form for some things. 3174. {Lord Lyttelton.) Was a boy who said " John " is about to leave," instead of " John is going off," found fault with ? — I dare say he would be found fault with. 3175. {Mr. Thompson.) It would be thought affec- tation in a boy to say "John is about to leave" ? — I should think so. He knows what he ought to say. It is very short and he hears it said every night. 3176. {Lord Clarendon.) There is a particular form in which they say it ? — Yes. 3177. And there are a great many forms ? — No, I do not think there are a great many. 3178. But there are several ? — Yes. 3179. And any deviation froni that form would be considered disrespectful and would be punished would it not ? — If he made a deviation the second election would remind him of it, and after being reminded of such a simple thing any future deviation can only be taken as intentional. 3180. {31r. Twisleton.) What is the particular form about orders?— "Any more orders? John is going off." 3181. {Sir S. Northcote.) Why could not John come for the orders himself ?— I do not know I am sure. He ought. It is principally that they do not have servants in college more than they can help. 3182. Do you not think that the duties of "tenor" might, generally speaking, be discharged by John ?_ I dare say they might. 3183. {Mr. Thompson.) How often is a boy liable to be " tenor " ? — There is a " tenor " every night. It depends on the number of his election. 3184. Do you know the meaning of the name ? I do not. 3185. {Lord Lyttelton.) If a boy in school wants to go out has he to ask the leave of any of the boys as well as of the master ? — Yes. 3186. How many? — He has got to ask his own senior, the monitors, and the second election. 3187. {Mr. Tivisleton.) What is the reason of re- quiring that ? — I am sure I do not know. I suppose it may have come from formei days when the monitors were much more responsible for the junior part of the college. At present it is a mere form. 3188. {Mr. Thompson.) Is that done during school? — Yes, on Fridays. 3189. {Lord Lyttelton.) You consider that the monitors are much less responsible than formerly they were ? — I do not know what the origin of asking leave out can be except for that. 3190. Do you think the power of the monitors has diminished ? — No. 3191. {Mr. Thompson.) Is this duty incumbent only on the boys in college. Town boys are not obliged to do it, are they ? — No ; they have nothing to do with us in that way. 3192. {Lord Devon.) You say he has to ask leave of three persons besides the master of the form ? — He has to ask more than three. He has to ask his own senior and all the monitors, and if the senior does not happen to be a monitor, that would make five. 3193. Supposing each of these boys to be in a dif- ferent form, and to be engiiged in saying some lessons at the time to the master, has he to run about school to speak to one boy in one form and another in another ? — The monitors all sit together. 3194. They come up before the Head Master ? — Yes. After prayers, before the school is regularly settled, is the time for asking. The monitors are behind the table, and the fellows come up and ask for leave out. 3195. Suppose a fellow wants to go out, he would have to ask the master of the form in which he was, and he would then have to ask leave of the monitors and of his own senior ? — Yes, for leave out. 3196. Supposing the monitors and his own senior were in different parts of the school, would he have to go and find them before he could go out ? — He would have to look somewhere for them. If he could not find them, an excuse would be taken ; but, prac- tically, all the seniors and monitors are always in the same form. 3197. All the seniors and the monitors?- — Very nearly always. There has only been one election in which there has been an exception. 3198. {Mr. Thotnpson.) Would he have to ask them if they were up to lessons ? — In that case he would ask them after prayers. He would wait till the end of school or beginning of school, till they came back to school. 3199. Yon do not perceive any particular meaning in this arrangement, do you ? — No. 3200. Is it admitted to be inconvenient, or not ? — I do not know about the inconvenience. It is rather silly, I dare sa)'. I do not think it is inconvenient. 3201. {Sir S. Kortheote.') I suppose the seniors could put a stop to such a thing if they chose. Simply their word would alter the system ? — Yes ; they can put a stop to anything for which they are not respon- sible to the master, 3B 3 WEST- MINSTER. Mr. G. T. M. O'Brien. 3 Feb. 1863. See33M 502 ■PUBLIC SCHOOLS COMMISSION : — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. WEST- MINSTER. Mr. G. T. M. O'Brien. 3 Feb. 1S63. 3202. {Mr. Twisleton.) Could not the four moni- tors i)ut .an end to this iisking ? — No ; supposing a boy asks leave to go up town, say on Thursd.ay, he has to ask the monitors and the master. If he asks the monitors they are responsible for his not going up town unless he has asked the master. Supposing he had not asked tlie master or the monitors and was found up town, the masters would very likely blame the monitors for not having seen that he got leave. 3203. {Lord Devon.) We .are rather referring to this — one of the boys in school .asking leave to go down school for three or four minutes? — He has not •to ask leave of any one at all but the master. I thought you i-eferred to asking for leave out in the sense of going out to the town or going to your friends. 3204. It is with reference to what has been stated to us, that in the case of a junior wishing to go down out of the school he would have to .ask not merely the master of the form in which perhaps he is saying his lessons, but also to go about to get permission to go down from the monitors ? — He has not to ask anyone's leave at all. ' 3205. {Lord Lyttelton.') Do you mean that it never happens that a boy has to ask leave, not only of the master, but also of some other boys to go out for any purpose ? — No ; never. 3206. {Sir S. Northcote.) I suppose such matters as calling " clock " or the system of calling in the morning or the calling of " election " could be altered and regulated by the seniors just as they pleased ; they have that entirely in their own hands ? — Yes. 3207. Has there been any modification since you have known college in the duties required of the boys ? — No ; I do not think so. 3208. You think they are much the same as they were when you were a junior ? — I think so. 3209. Is there any tradition in the school of their having been more severe formerly ? — I think there is. 3210. {Mr. Twisleton.) When you were a junior were you told that the system w-as more severe formerly ? — No ; there were traditions of particularly severe seniors. 3211. There were individuals who were tyrannical? — Yes, but I think the system has been the same for some time. 3212. {Sir S. Northcote.) The head boy in the remove is called the liberty boy is he not ? — The head junior is. 3213. Is he required to do anything in considera- tion of his liberty. Is he expected to do exercises or anything of that sort ? — No. He is obliged to be prompter to play which takes up a good deal of his time. 3214. Are you aware that in old times it was the custom to m.ake the liberty boy do verses for the seniors ? — No, I never heard of that. 3215. It is not so now ? — No. 3216. {3Ir. Vaughan.) With regard to calling in the morning, and tea in the evening, and any other attendances that the juniors h.ave to give, do you think that the seniors call upon them more often than they would call on servants if they had servants to do the same duties? — Of course, if they had servants to do that they would not call upon the junioi's at all. 3217. Do you think they call upon junior boys either for the sake of keeping up the system or disci- pline of the school, or for any other reason more than they would if they had servants to do it ? — No, I think not. You do not drink two cups of tea in order that you may give your junior more to do. 3218. {Mr. Thompson.) How often would you say a cup of tea is called for on an average in the course of the evening ? — I should think most boys might drink two cups. 3219. Have they any tea in the hall?-^No, not in the evening. 3220. Have they any supper ? — Yes, they have bread and cheese and meat and beer. 3221. At what time is that ?— At 7 o'clock ■jvinter, and at 8 o'clock in summer. m 3222. At what time have they tea ? — At any time you like to have it made. 3223. You cannot have it very often between 8 and 10 ? — No, but you are locked up in winter at a quarter to 6 till 10, with the interruption of half- an-hour for supper, when you go out. 3224. {Lord Clarendon.) Who p.ays for the tea and coffee so constantly called for ? — The seniors. 3225. Does the junior keep the account for him? — No, there is a regular packet which comes into college, and which is divided among the upper elections. 3226. During the time that you were a junior did you suffer in any way, physically or morally, from the system ? — No, I think not. 3227. You were perfectly happy there ' — Yes, I was perfectly happy. 3228. You did not feel yourself depressed, or that you had to perform duties or to submit to things which you thought degrading ? — No. 3229. {Mr. Thompson.) Were you happier or less happy than you were before you got into college ? — It is much better to be a college than a town boy ; infi- nitely better. 3230. {Mr. Ttoisleton.) You say you were locked up from a quarter to 6 to 10 ? — In the winter. 3231. During that time is any master present, except for reading prayers ? — No ; the master comes in at 10. 3232. So that the boys are all together during that period ? — Yes, in two different rooms. 3233. The big boys and the little boys are together ? — No ; the big boys are in one room and the little boys in another ; except that one monitor goes in, from 8 to 10, to see that the room is quiet and that under elections do their work. 3234. {Mr. Vaughan.) Could you state briefly what are the adv.antages of being in college, as to the com- fort of the boy, as compared with being a town boy which induce you to say it is better to be in college? — I do not know. I like the idea much better. I like the fellows in college much better ; and there is a sort of esprit de corps. 3235. But I mean as to the ways and habits of life? — No, I do not know that there is any advantage there. You are fed just as well at the boarding-houses. 3236. Then as to the social intercourse between the boys ? — Yes, that I like much better in college. The fellows there are much more together. 3237. {Mr. Thompson.) Do you think that is the general opinion ?— Yes. You very seldom see a Queen's scholar who does not like it better than a town boy. I do not hesitate to say that that was my feeling, and I often expressed it. It depends, however, partly on whether you have a kind senior or not ; mine was a particularly kind one. 3238. (Sir S. Northcote.) Does it not frequently happen that a boy, as a junior, is obliged to fag for boys who .are below him in school?— Yes. I had a fag before I went into college. As a town boy I had a fag. Then, when I went into college, I was fagged for that year. I was a fag when I was in the sixth. 3239. Do you not think that it is likely to be galling to a boy, that after being a master he has to go down in that manner ? — I think it would do him a great deal of good. 3240. {Mr. yAo?M/>io«.) Perhaps you think it might be extended to the seniors ? — No ; I think you have enough of it. Nothing is good in excess. 3241. {Lord Clarendon.) I suppose since you have ceased to be a junior, you think your time is more agreeably and more usefully employed ? — I did not like my second election year as well as my junior year. Of course, the upper election is pleasanter. 3242. Why did you not like the second election year ? — I dare say it was a good deal accidental, but I did not like it. Your senior was very kind to you when you were a junior ; and as a second election you had loss to do with the seniors, and besides had a great deal of responsibility, which you did not have when you were a junior, except concerning yourself. Altogether, I did not like it so much. PUBLIC SCHOOLS COMMISSION: — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 503 3243. {Mr. Thompson.') Had you much time for work :\s a second election ? — Yes ; you bad fewer calls on your time. 3244. {Sir S. Northcote.) Were you ever punished as a second election for the fault of a junior ? — No, I think not. 3245. Is it ever the case. Have you known boys punished ? — Yes. 3246. Will you give us an instance of the kind of case in which a second election would be punished for the fault of a junior ? — If he left his books repeatedly up school. 3247. If the junior did ? — Yes ; he might punish the junior, or he might punish the second election. 3248. {Mr. Twisleton.) Has not this responsibility of the second elections a tendency to make them severe towards the junior ? — It makes him look after the junior, of course. 3249. {Sir S. Northcote.) Do you think it a good system ? — Its advantages seem to be very few, and its disadvantages many and obvious ; and I give it as my decided opinion that it would be well, if possible, to abolish it altogether. Its recommendation, I confess, is only its convenience, or its present apparent ne- cessity. 3250. {Mr. Tivisleton.) It is like the system of middlemen in li'elaud, is it not, with regard to the juniors ? — Yes. 3251. {Mr, Vaughan.) Do you think it would naturally have the efl'ect of making the second election more severe than the seniors themselves would be ? — I do not know about that. If he got licked occasionally by the senior it might teach him a little consideration for his junior perhaps. I dare say it is unnecessary. 3252. {Sir S. Northcote.) Do you think, on the whole, looking at it from the point of view of a senior, that it is a good system that the second election should be made responsible in this way ? — I do not think it is. The only recommendation of it for the seniors is that it saves them trouble, because it is much less trouble, the second election sitting with the junior, and seeing that he does all he has to do, whereas it would be a great bore for the senior to go into the under election room and superintend ; he might as well do everything himself. 3253. Do you consider that it is the duty of the second election to see that the junior does his own work propcrlv, and manages everything for himself properly, or that he fulfils the commands of the seniors properly ? — That he fulfils the commands of the seniors pro- perl}'. 3254. The seniors would soon find out whether their commands were obeyed ? — Yes ; but, supposing I had bad tea brought to me one night, I know it is bad, but it would be a great bore if I had to go and see that the follow made it properly. 3255. Would not you judge by the result ? — Yes, but I am not able to suggest a cure -Nrithout waste of time. 3256. {Lord Devon.) Supposing one of the seniors to Be very severe and tyrannical to his junior, have you known an instance in which the body of seniors have interfered ? — ^No, never. 3257. Is that because you have known no instance of tyranny ? — I have known no very severe senior. 3258. Have you never known an instance in your college life in which things have been done by a senior to a junior which were rather against public opinion, or which ought to have been against public opinion in college ? — No, I do not think I can recollect an instance. 3259. At any rate, whether there has been or not, have you ever known an instance in which the body of seniors have remonstrated or interfered with the exercise of power on the part of an individual senior ? — No, that I certainly have not. 3260. Would it be part of the system of college administration that in such a case as that to which I have referred there should be such an interference on the part of the seniors ? — ^Yes, the monitors would probably interfere. not WEST- MINSTEB. Mr. G. T. M. O'Brien. 3261. But during your four years you do recollect any interference ? — No, decidedly not. 3262. Do you recollect any appeal, or would an appeal lie, to use a legal word, from a junior against any severe punishment inflicted by an individual monitor to the body of the monitors? — No; there 3 Feb. 1863. would not be an appeal, but of course such severity • •* could not fail to be known by the monitors, and it would have the same effect as there being an appeal. 3263. Is it the case as we have heard it stated with regard to other schools (one other school cer- tainly), that supposing a junior boy to be about to be punished by a head boy he might stay the hand of that head boy by saying, " I call upon you to refer " this to the other prefets," you do not know of any such things ? — No, there is no such recognized principle. 3264. {Sir S. Northcote.) Do you think a senior would at all take the part of his own junior and defend him against other seniors ? — Yes, if he thought him ill-used he would. 3265. Has there ever been occasion for a junior to appeal to his own senior ? — No. 3266. In fact you have never known an instance of bullying in college at Westminster ? — No, I have seen hidings or tannings but not buUyings. 3267. Those you consider were all deserved ? — I think so. 3268. Can you conceive the case of bullying there at all ? — Yes, it would be possible, I should think. 3269. I mean that there is a line beyond which a senior would not be justified in going ? — Yes ; in the case of any wanton hiding or anything of that sort. Such a thing might happen there as well as anywhere else. 3270. But you do not think it ever does happen there ? — Certainly not. 3271. Supposing it did, do you think .any notice would be taken of it ? — That would depend on tb" set there were in college. 3272. Would it be the duty of anyone to do it ? — No, there is no understood preconceived rule about it. It might turn out either way. 3273. It would not be the duty of the monitors to take notice of what they thought was bullying ? — They might make it their duty. I should think it my duty, of course, if I saw any bullying, to stop it. At the same time, it is not one of the regular duties, like having to see that the under elections do their work. 3274. {3Ir. Twisleton.) It could not be a regular duty, because bullying so seldom occurs, in your view ? — Certainly ; I think so. 3275. {Sir S. Northcote.) Generally speaking, do you imagine, from what you hear from others, that the system of fagging at Westminster is more severe than at other schools, or about the same ? — I think it would be more severe. I do not think there is more bullying, but it is more severe, I dare say, from the feature of calling in the morning. 3276. There is not more irregular bullying, but the system of fagging is more severe ? — Yes, that is what I mean to say. 3277. {Lord Clarendon.) Does it occur to you that any change can be made in the system for the better, because I think you will agree that for a junior, at a very important period of his life, from 15 to 16, to lose a whole year or nearly so, is a grievance which requires a remedy ? — Yes, to be sure. 3278. If you have reflected on the thing, which I dare say you have, haviug gone from the juniors to the seniors, in what way do you think any improve- ment could be introduced ?— I dare say, if there were a rule that in the hours during which a junior is sup- posed to be working, from 8 to 10, that they should be entirely free from any calls, it would be better. That is a thing which has occurred to me. I do not think it would be altogether such a hardship on tho seniors, because I think they might manage to get tlieir evening's tea before that. 3^79 Do you think if there were more servanta ^ ?R 4 504 PUBLIC SCHOOLS COMMISSION: — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. WEST- MINSTER. Mr. G. T. M. O'Brien. 3 Feb. 1863. appointed, to do that which is really servants' work, that that would be a great thing ? — To be sure. 3280. And an easing of the juniors ? — Yes. 3281. {Mr. Twisleton.) With those two improve- ments you do not think the fagging would be more severe than at other schools ? — I really hardly know anything about the fagging at other schools. 3282. {3Ir. Vaughati.) I understood you to say that the second election feel the system as more troublesome than the boys wlio are fagged, the juniors ?— Not a greater trouble. They have not more work, nor have they anything like the same amount of work, but they have a different kind of work, and it is rather irksome. 3283. Was it more disagreeable ? — Yes. 3284. Would it not therefore alleviate the condition of the juniors very much, without pressing very hardly on the election above them, if they were to partake directly in the fagging, instead of being responsible for the fagging in the manner you describe ? — If the second election were to be fagged too ? 328.5. Yes ? — I do not know about that. That is just the only one thing that makes a second election's life at all endurable. 3286. I understand you to say that, as at present constituted, it is more disagreeable to be a second election ? — Yes ; but I do not know whether they would exactly like two years' fagging. 3287. Not even mitigated ? — No. 3288. {Lord Devon.) Passing from the question of the college, we shall be very glad to know whether anything has occurred to you with reference to the general system of the school ; as regards education or any other point, which you would wish to bring under our notice ? — No, I do not think so. 3289. For 'example, whether any one branch of study is neglected, or whether there is undue promi- nence given to any ; or any matter which you, having had experience of it, would wish to see changed ? — No, I think not. 3290. {Mr. Thompson.') Are you going to the University ? — Yes. 3291. Do you expect to get to Oxford? — I am going to Cambridge. 3292. {Lord Devon.) What degree of intercourse have the seniors with the under master. Is there any personal intercourse with the master who is personally in connexion with the college, any more than that he comes in to prayers in the evening ? — Yes, if there is anything he wants done in the college he would do it through the monitors. 3293. Have instances occurred of that in your time ? — Yes. 3294. Will you give an example of such a case as a master would interfere in ? — I can only remember one rather trivial case. A great many chairs had been broken in college in a row, and he sent, through the monitors, a sort of message that it was not to happen again. That goes through the monitor. 3295. Has it been the habit, either in your time or from what you have heard, that the monitor should drink tea with the master, or that there should be any intercourse of that sort ? — He occa- sionally has fellows into tea. That would always be of a Saturday or Sunday night, and he would have very few in then. 3296. {Sir S. Northcote.) Do you suppose that the master has a general knowledge of what goes on in college, that he knows whether there is much bully- ing or not, and whether the fagging is severe, or any- thing of that kind ? — No. He knows exactly what the system is, but he has no means of knowing, as he is not there, except by complaint, of how it is carried out. 3297. He knows what the system is by his own knowledge as a boy ? — Yes, and he can put any question he likes, and, of course, we should tell him exactly what it was. 3298. I mean does he usually through the monitors or in any other way get an idea of how the system is working ? — Yes, he consults them about things. 3299. For instance, if he observed that the juniors were falling off in their school work, would he speak to the monitors ? — Yes, he comes down on their indi- vidual seniors. The senior is responsible for his junior's work to a certain extent. 3300. Would the senior in such a case represent that the boy had not time for his school work because he had so much fagging ? — It would be rather a curious thing perhaps to say. It would be cutting his own throat of course ; and, besides, it would be a very unnatural question for a master to ask. But if the master were to speak to a monitor or senior about a junior falling oft' in his work, although the senior would not probably answer that it was owing to his being over fagged, which might often not be true, still he would speak to the junior, and tell him to work harder ; and if he felt conscious of having over- worked him, would consider it his duty to remit some part of his fagging. It is not infrequent for a senioi to help his junior in his work. 3301. You never heard of a boy saying such a thing ?— No. 3302. {Mr. Ttvislefoti.) In regard to the system you mentioned of juniors calling boys early at Win- chester, would that happen in commoners or in college ? — I really do not know. I heard it told as a story. I could not even be quite sure that it was at Winchester at all, but I heard that it was at Winchester just in a general way. The witness withdrew. Mr. A. Stewart. Mr. Alan Stewart called in and examined. 3303. {Lord Clarendon.) How long have you been at Westminster ? — Nine years next September. 3304. Were you more than one year a town boy ? — Yes, I was there five years very nearly. 3305. Then you passed into college ? — Yes. 3306. You have been four years in college ? — Four years in May. 3307. You were only one year a junior ? — Yes, you never are more. 3308. During that time did you find the fagging very severe ? — No. 3309. Had you not to get up very early in the morning sometimes to call the seniors ? — Yes, I had to get up early but I did not find any ill eficcts from it, and I did not mind it myself. 3310. Did you find that you had sufficient time to read ? — Plenty, and evidence of that is that I got my remove that half. At the end of my junior year I was removed into a higher form which I should not have been if I had not had time to work. 3311. {Lord Lyttelton.) What time of day did you work ? — We had almost all the evening to our- selves till 10 o'clock. 3312. {Lord Clarendon.) From what time ? — From about half-past seven when we came in. 3313. During that two hours and a half were you not constantly interrupted by having duties to do for the seniors ? — No ; very seldom. 3314. Was not there a constant crying of "election"? — No ; not much in the evening. 3315. So that you had the evenings to yourselves ? — Very nearly. 3316. If you were not "tenor"? — Yes; but"tenor" has no more duty to perform during that time than simply to keep up the fire, to put coals on, and that does not want doing more than once or twice in the two hours. 3317. We have been informed that a junior's year is almost lost to him for I'eading and for advancing in the school, and . although you may have made time enough for reading, is not the general impression PITBLIC SCHOOLS COMJIISSION :— MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 505 of tlic siliool, that it is a lost year ? — Not that I ever heard of before. 3318. Ycu thiuk that a boy can get on as well in his junior year in college as at any other time? — Certainly, if he chooses ; it rests with himself. 3319. Do you consider that the punishments which are inflicted by the seniors on the juniors or by the second election on the juniors are severe? — No, not in usual cases. I have heard stories of boys who have been tjTannical, but certainly not in the last year that I can remember. 3320. You have never seen any punishment of undue severity such as " buckhorsing " or " tanning " ? — No. 3321. Are you acquainted with a punishment called " tanning in way," where a boy is obliged to stand with one leg up, which he puts on the sink and is then kicked by another boy ? — I know what you mean, but since we have been seniors we have not allowed such a thing to be done, and I did not know that such a thing had been done, but I made inquiries the other da}', and find it had been done once in our year and that is the only time. 3322. {Lord Lyttelton.) Where are you in the school? — In the sixth form. 3323. Near the top ?— Sixth. 3324. {Mr. Ticisleton.) Are you a monitor ? — No ; I am next after the monitors. 3325. (xMr. Thompson.') What is your age ? — I shall be 19 in May. 3326. (Lord Clarendon.) When did this case of tanning in w.iy occur ? — I really do not know. I did not know that such a thing had been done, until the other day. 3327. But still it seems to have made a sufficient im- pression on the seniors. You say it has been done away with ? — Yes ; the truth is that I do not believe that it has been done three times since I have been in college. 3328. You say j-ou never heard of it till the other day, what brought it to your knowledge ? — Because, when Mr. Meyrick complained, we inquired whether such a thing had been done, and then we were told it had been done once ; but I did not know it before then. 3329. {Mr. Thompson.) Once in the last year ? — Yes. 3330. {Lord Clarendon.) Do you know whether the boy on whom it was inflicted was injured by it ? — Not that I have heard. If he had been, we should have heard of it. 3331. {L^ord Lyttelton.) Did you see him after- wards ? — I did not know that it had been done. 3332. {Mr. Thompson.) By whose order was it done ? — I believe by the captain's ; but I am not sure. 3333. Can any one boy order an execution of that sort ? — A senior can. 3334. Any senior can order a punishment of that sort ? — Yes. 3335. There is no particui.ar solemnity attached to this tanning in way ? — Solemnity is too strong an expression ; there is a certain formality. 3336. It is merely considered severe ? — Yes. 3337. {SirS. Northcote.) WHiat was the ofl!ence in this case ? — I do not know at all. 3338. {Lord Clarendon.) If a senior was to order this particular punishment, this tanning in way, would he be the boy who would kick him ? — No. 3339. Would he appoint some other boy to kick him ? — It is generally either his second election, or the second election last on the list. 3340. In consequence of the complaint made by Mr. Meyrick, which came to the knowledge of the seniors, they have put an end to this punishment altogether. Is that what we are to understand ? — I believe it was agreed to abolish it before that, but I have not myself heard anything about it. I never allowed it with my junior. 3341. You could never have allowed it if you never heard of it ; but it was to you entirely new ? — I have 1. heard of it ; but I mean to say that I never should have allowed my second election to punish my junior in that way. 3342. Do you know whether there was any con- sultation between the seniors as to putting an end to this form of punishment ? — I believe there was not. I did not know of it if there was. 3343. How can it be said to be put an end to ? Simply that it has not been done. 3344. You are not a monitor ? — No, I am not. 3345. Do you consider that any regulation has been made, as far as your knowledge goes, by monitors or seniors, to prevent the infliction of that form of punishment ? — No regulation has been made, but I do not think that any senior would do it. I think they have determined in their own minds not to do so.* 3346. That binds the present seniors, but it would not bind the seniors of next year ? — No. 3347. {Lord Devon.) Have you ever witnessed any gathering or collection of seniors to discuss either that or any other point connected with the power of punishment ? — No, I thiuk not, since I have been a senior. 3348. While you were in one of the other elections did any such meeting take place ? — I do not remem- ber it. 3349. Should you say that, on the whole, during your four years of college, you have not been cogni- zant of any act of undue severity in the exercise of punishment ? — Myself do you mean ? 3350. I do not mean you individually. Has any come within your observation ? — Certainly not. 3351. Not during the four years at all ? — No. 3352. {Lord Clarendon.) Is there anything which occurs which is desirable as a change in the system. I mean the system that is observed by the seniors towards the juniors ? — No, I think if a senior is right- minded, the system is the best you can have. 3353. In short, if a senior is not over severe, you think it is a system incapable of improvement ? — Yes, certainly. 3354. {Lord Devon.) What form were you in when you got into college? — I was in the upper shell, I think. I got my remove into the upper shell at the time when I got into college. 3355. Which were your happiest four years, the four years you were a town boy, or the four years you were in college ? — Decidedly the four years in college. 3356. On what grounds ?— I liked it better. We were freer. 3357. More withdrawn from the personal super- vision of the master ? — Yes. I do not mean to say that we took liberties with him. 3358. But you were more free of him; you governed yourselves more ? — Yes. 3359. {Lord Lyttelton^, You consider that the college is rather the distinguished class in the school, the better part of the school ? — They are considered so at Westminster. 3360. {Lord Clarendon.) The dominant class ? — Yes. 3361. (3Ir. Vaughan.) Do you think the smaller boys were as happy in the boarding-houses as in college ? — I think they are very happy there ; I was. 3362. Not more so than the juniors in college ? — No. 3363. {Sir S. Northcote.) Have you ever heard of town boys shrinking from standing out for college for fear of the treatment in the junior year ? — No ; I think those who have shrunk from college have shrunk more from the trouble of getting in. 3364. Is not the juniors' year thought a very hard year ? — Only by those who have not tried it. 3365. {Mr. Twiskton.) Was Mr. Meyrick not in the junior year ? — Yes ; he got into college last May, BO he has been a junior until now ; and if he had stayed he would have been so till next May. • Since this evidence was given, a regulation has been made by the Head Master entirely abolishing this form of punishment, and this will apply to all future seniors. 3S WEST- MINSTER. Mr. A. Stewart. 3 Feb. 1853. 506 PUBLIC SCHOOLS COMIIISSIOK : —MINUTES OF EVIDENCE, WEST- MINSTER Mr.A.Sleioart. 3366. Should you say that he has not ti-ied the junior year ? — Yes, he has, fully. 3367. {Lord Devon.) Have any other boys been takeu away during your four years in college, that you are aware of ? — Yes ; there was one in my own 3 Feb. 1863. election of the i Time of Shadwell. He was taken _— ^— away because he was blind ; he turned blind after he got into college. I do not think I remember any_ others at this moment. 3368. Has there been any other case than the one referred to, Meyi-ick's case, in which a boy has been taken away from alleged hardship ? — Not that I ever heard of. 3369. (Sir S. Northcote.) Do you know anything about other schools, whether there is considered to be more bullying at other schools than at Westminster ? — No. 1 do not know anybody at other schools, except one at Charterhouse and one at Winchester. 3370. Is not Westminster thought harder than those ? — Not that I ever heard of. 3371. Is not Charterhouse supposed to be a place where there is a good deal of fagging ? — I think not. 3372. Nor Winchester ? — Not that ever I heard of. I have never been to either of them, I cannot say. Victoria Street. — Saturday, 14th March 1863. PRESENT ; Eael or Clarendon. Earl of Devon. Lord Lyttelton. Sir Stafford Northcote, Bart. Hon. Edward Twisleton. Rev. W. H. Thosipson. H. Halford Vaughan, Esq. Jiev. C. B. Scott. 3373. (Lord Clarendon.) You are .aware that we 14 March 1863. have received some information of a painful character from Mr. Meyrick, and we thought it right that you should see the evidence he gave us. We have understood that you wished to see us upon the subject, and we shall be glad to hear anything you have to say either generally or in detail upon it ? — I certainly feel that it would be a very great injustice to the school if hearsay statements, in great part eiTO- neous, were printed and given forth as evidence which the Commission had .accepted, without any cor- rection being supplied in immediate connexion with them. 3374. As you have had Mr. Meyrick's evidence before you, there are, probably, parts of it to which you would particularly wish to reply, or to draw our attention to ? — Yes. There are some things which I would explain, and some things I should wish to point out as entire misstatements. For instance, in question 2481 of Mr. Meyrick's evidence, Lord Clarendon asks, " May I ask why Mr. " Scott said your boy could not go back to the " school?" I can easily explain that I felt that a boy who had withdrawn from college under such circumstances would find his position in the school afterwards to be intolerable, and that was what I said to Mr. Meyrick. It was obvious enough that he would be regarded as a renegade, and the other boys would have tormented him. In point of fact he could not have remained in the school with any comfort to himself, and that was what I told Mr. Meyrick. 3375. There is no instiince that you are aware of, of a boy having gone back to school from college ? — I imagine there never has been such a case since the school has existed. 3376. (Mr. Thompson.) Do you suppose that Mr. Meyrick was serious in making tliis proposal ? — Yes, I thought he was. 3377. (Lord Clarendon.) It was in the interest of the boy that you dissuaded Mr. Meyrick from sending him back to the school, though you said there was no positive objection to it ? — Yes, nothing statutable. Again, he speaks of the statutable provision, by which a boy is required to have been a year in the school before entrance into college, as if it were a modern abuse. Then, in .answer 2485, he says, "As an instance of " what I assert, it would be supposed that if a boy were " taken ill while he was before a master saying his " lesson that that fact would be sufficient to prevent " him from undergoing a degrading and brutal punish- " ment for a temporary retirement from the room." The earl OF CLARENDON in the Chair. The Rev. C. B. Scott, B.D., called in and examined. Now I do not accuse Mr. Meyrick of intentioniSl mis-statement in such things, because I see perfectly well how his error may have arisen. There are three terms, as Lord Devon knows perfectly well, in use at Westminster, " leave out of school," " leave down school," and " leave out," which three things to you probably sound much alike, but to a boy convey three entirely different conceptions. "Leave out of school " means sick leave, leave to go into the sick house as an invalid. " Leave out " means leave to go to friends in town ; "leave down school" means what would be asked from a master in school ; " leave down school " is simply the master's leave, and Mr. Meyrick has mistaken what his boy said of "leave out of school" for "leave down school." 3378. (J^ord Lyttelton.) Mr. Meyrick admitted that subsequently ? — Well, but there is a long story about this, and afterwards in O'Brien's evidence a whole page is confused, because O'Brien answered you on one particular point, conceiving himself to be questioned on that point. 3379. (Mr. Thompson.) We were not under that misapprehension when we questioned O'Brien ? — But he was under that misapprehension when he answered. {Mr. Thompson.) We certainly used the words in the corrected sense which you attribute to them when we questioned him, because Mr. Meyrick, if I am not mistaken, had already recanted what he said about its being necessary on the .slightest occasions to get the consent of those boys. 3380. (Sir S. Northcote.) It was his son who corrected it ? — I can only answer for O'Brien, because I have his autograph here that he was under that misapprehension. 3381. (Mr. TAom^^ow.) Under what misapprehen- sion ? — Lord Lyttelton asks him " If a boy in school " wants to go out has he to ask the leave of any of " the boys as well as of the master ? " O'Brien " answered thinking the question referred to leave out to his friends ; but afterwards Lord Lyttelton asks with some astonishment " Do you mean that it " never happens that a boy has to ask leave not " only of the master, but also of some other boj-s " to go out for any purpose ? " and he says, " No, " never." 3382. (Lord Devon.) You are aware that evidence has been given before us from which an inference may be drawn, that when a boy wishes to le.ave school to go down in reference to any call of nature, or for any purpose, he is obliged to ask leave, not merely of the master of the form, but of three persons PUBLIC SCHOOLS COMMISSION :— MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 507 bosiiles, iKimely, his own senior and tho monitors ; ■what exphxnation do you wish to give as to that ? — It is an entire mis-statement that a boy down school iisks leave from any one but the master of his form, lie would be punished instantly if he spoke to any one else. The idea that any form should be disturbed by boys cominj; in to ask leave is absurd. 3383. We only want the facts. Then I would ask you liiis further question. If, in answer to a question on this point, it has been stated in evidence by Mr. O'Brien that such was the case, such answer was given under a misconception ? — Yes. 3384. Your belief that that answer is given under a misapprehension will probably be confirmed if you look at 319o ; you will see an answer of Mr. O'Brien which is inconsistent with that to which you have just now referred ? — Yes. 3385. {Mr. Vaughan.) Have you since Mr. O'Brien was examined conferred with him and learnt from him that he misapprehended the question that was put to him ? — Certainly. 3386. You were going to draw attention to some- thing ? — Yes ; to Mr. Meyrick's statements. To question 2487. in answer to Mr. Vaughan, he says, " When he is in school before the master. I now say " not wliat is matter of opinion ; I say what occurred " yesterday." No such thing ever occurred at all. 3387. {Mr. Thompson.) He probably said " what " ma;/ have occurred yesterday"? — No; it is his misconception. {Mr. Thompson.') I do not think there is any conscious misre[)resentation, because he entirely re- canted that part of his evidence afterwards, in a most full and explicit manner. He drew the very dis- tinction which you have made ; so I understood it, either he or liis sou, or both. 3388. {Lord Clarendon.) With respect to the question to which vou have first drawn our attention, you state thiit Mr. Meyrick h-id no right to say what occurred yesterd.iy ; but he says further on, that a boy " is liable to be had up by one of the seniors ; he " is made to keep his knees straight, and to touch " his toes with his hands ; the senior sends for a " walking stick or a racket, and he may break it " about his back, and the boy come staggering out " of the room as white as that paper." Would you saj-, whether it happened yesterday or at any other time, that that is an improbable statement? — Cer- tainly, not only Jin improbable but an impossible statement, unless the boy had been guilty of some grave moral offence. 3389. {31r. Thompson.) lu the opinion of the seniors ? — Yes. I do not think they would judge unjustly in such matters. The seniors have delegated the power of punishment for minor offences to the second election, a very objectionable thing, and a thing which I at once dealt withi but the seniors have not themselves so punished for anything but grave moral offences. 3390. {3Ir. Vaughan.) When you say it is impos- sible, upon what ground do you conceive it to have been impossible ? — Not in the sense that two and two cannot make five. 3391. But still, probably, in some natural sense of the word you think that it would be impossible ? — I meant that in my experience of seven years I never have heard of any such punishment except for a grave moral offence. 3392. Would your statement upon that subject amount to this, that the infliction of any such punish- ment except for a gi-ave moral offence has never come to your e.ars ? — Never. 3393. {Lord Clarendon.) Do you believe that such prunishments are inflicted otherwise than for grave moral offences by the second election at the order of the seniors ? — Never with any stick. 3394. Neither a stick nor racket nor the frame of a cap ? — That was a different thing : the "helps," as I am told, did punish idleness in their "men" or can- didates for college, by striking their hands with a cap. 339-5. {Lord Lyttclton.) You say that delegation WEST- of power to the second election had been abolished ? MINSTER. — Yes, but not till Lately, because I never knew of ~ — it till Mr. Meyrick told me. ^ BScoU 3396. Do you mean they have no power of punish- _! ment ? — I have not brought my rules with me, but H March 1863. I can tell you what the rule is. That no power of pun- ishment should ever be delegated to a second election, and that no boy should be corporally punished for any college neglect. 3397. {Mr. Vaughan.) In case of any punishment being inflicted of the kind that has been described, such as beating with a racket for any other than grave moral offences, from whom would you expect to hear of it ? — I think from the parent. Somehow those things come round to one. 3398. {Mr. Twisleton.) You were not .aware, I understand, of this power that was delegated to the second election, until Mr. Meyrick gave his evidence? — I never heard of it. 3399. Is it not then equally possible that too severe a punishment might have been inflicted on boys without you having heard of it ? — Yes ; but what my ausvver was directed to, was not the possibility of punishments having been too severe, but as to the class of offences for which it would have been inflicted. 3400. You admit that the punishment might have been too severe for a particular class of offences with- out your having heard of it ? — Clearly it might. 3401. {Mr. Vaughan.) Might not, for the same reason, such a punishment be inflicted in a case iti which, according to the principles of good discipline, it ought not to be applied at all, and yet you not hear of it ? — There may be some uncertainty of course how far one's knowledge goes, but things are mentioned by boys after they have left. 3402. Have you such confidence in the mode in which the punishments are .administered by the boys that, even in the face of positive evidence to thei contrary, you would still be of opinion that such im- proper punishments had not been inflicted? — I should wait to see what the evidence was. 3403. {Lord Lyttelton.) Have you read the whole of this evidence ? — I have. 3404. Both of Mr. Meyrick and his son.— All. 3405. {Sir S. Northcote.) When you said just now that it would be impossible that such a punishment could have been inflicted by a senior, except for a grave moral offence, you explained the word im- possible by saying that you did not mean it was impossible in the sense th.at two .and two could not' make five, then in what sense do you consider it impossible, — because it would be contr.ary to the boys' habits, or because it would come to the knowledge of and be checked by the masters ? — Because it would be contrary to the whole system of the boys, and because there would be a very considerable danger that such a thing would come to tho knowledge of the masters. 3406. You would regard it as impossible in the same sense in which you say it is impossible that a very moral boy should tell a lie or be guilty of any offence ? — Yes. 3407. You consider it to be contrary to the whole spirit of the school ? — Yes. 3408. {Lord Clarendon.) Perhaps you will tell us what are the grave moral offences which would justify the seniors in inflicting this severe punish-, ment, and in which they would have the support of public opinion in the school ? — Lying, indecency, oi- impurity, drinking, or perhaps smoking in excess. If I found a boy had been punished for such things, and he had not been hurt, I should not censure it. 3409. {Mr. Vaugha7i.) Even for smoking in ex- cess ?— I am afraid they do not always punish for smoking, but if a boy smokes in excess they some- times do. 3410. {Lord Clarendon.) No doubt you h.ave made some inquiries since Mr. Meyrick spoke to you, and after vou had his evidence before you, as to the •^ 3 S2 508 PUBLIC SCHOOLS COMMISSION :— MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. WEST- MINSTER. Bev. C. B. Scott. mauuer in -which the second election exercised that delegated power from the seniors of punishing ? — Certainly I have. 3411. Did you think it was in excess and required to he checked ? — It was certainly bad ; it was utterly 14 March 1863. bad. ■ 3412. I think I gathered that you have made some regulation which will put a stop to it ? — Yes, I have. 3413. {Mr. Thompson.) Was it a recently introduced abuse ? — No ; I had no means of inquiring back more than eight or nine years, but I found it was as long as that. 3414. {Lord Clarendon.) Do you think that the regulations you have now made will effectually put a stop to it ; that both seniors and second election will conform to your regulations ? — I have no doubt about it, with watching ; it requires attention, of course. I should say, at the same time, that I have found that the chief troubles between the second election and the juniors arose from the system of furnishing of pens and paper, which I at once abolished. 3415. {Lord LytteltoH.) How is it about the boys carrying those things in their pockets? — Yes, -that was true, but not that a boy could have to give away 40 or 50 quarterns in school. 3416. Have you done something about that ? — Yes, I made a rule that they should not be supplied so any more, and they will not. I may say that I had the contents of the drawer put up and intended to bring them with me, but have forgotten it. On searching it I found 12 pieces of dirty paper and two pens. 3417. {Lord Clarendon.) Might not that have ex- posed the whole of the juniors to severe castig.ation. Might not the whole of the juniors have been tanned on account of the unfurnished state of the drawer ? — It was just in its ordinary state. It is often difficult to find a clean piece of paper there. I very seldom take anything from it. No one has a right to take paper from it but the Head Master, or the seniors. 3418. Everybody is obliged to put paper into it ? — Certain of the junior Queen's schoLars were in theory ; that is to say they were obliged to keep it up to low water mark. They were responsible if there is no paper there. They did not bring the paper. I see what goes on, and they did not bring it. A ques- tion was asked as to the size of the drawer, and the inference seemed to be that an immense drawer was kept full of pens and paper, and that the whole school ■were to help themselves. It would be as much as a boy's life were worth to go to that drawer, if in the lower part of the school ; he would be demolished. 3419. {Mr. Thompson.) By whom? — By the seniors generally. The Queen's scholars consider it a distinction of some kind. A boy would sooner apparently go half a mile round than not touch that drawer, and no town boy ever approaches the drawer. 3420. {Lord Clarendon.) Was there not a case in which for neglecting to fill the drawer the juniors were tanned ? — What you refer to happened at Christmas last ; it was not done, but it was ordered. 3421. The whole of the juniors ? — The whole that were responsible ; not all the juniors. 3422. It was ordered when they met again that the whole of the juniors should be tanned? — No, it was ordered then. 3423. A certain number of the juniors were ordered to be tanned ? — Because they had failed in the duty of supplying pens and paper, and certainly as far as that goes I testify they h.ad not supplied it. 3424. Then it appears that there is a sort of rule ? —That there was, yes. 3425. That this drawer should be supplied to a certain extent ? — There was. 3426. You say that this tanning of the juniors did not take place ? — No. 3427. Why did it not ?— It was remitted. 3428. By the remonstrance of the other seniors ?— No. It was the playtime, and I suppose the elder boys were in a good humour. I believe the second election may have interceded, but I do not know. It did not take place. 3429. {Mr. Twisleton.) That would not have been for a grave moral offence? — No, it would not have been inflicted by a senior. The system was so complicated that I may fail to convey what I mean. The seniors only punish grave moral offences. They delegated all these little neglects to the second election to punish. I only mean that the punishment would bo a different one. 3430. {Mr. Vaughaii.) Am I right in my .appre- hension of the system, then, that the second election had two vicarious duties which they performed, one was to be punished themselves for others occasion- ally, and the other was occasionally to punish for others ? — That is quite correct. 3431. Have you any sufficient reason to think that the method in which this service of filling the drawer was executed by the senior election w.as not such as to harass the junior boys, either by the trouble or expense which it put them to ? — Certainly. If there had been a couple of sheets brought up daily, and if there had been a pen perhaps twice a week, it would have been more than was used. It was hardly ever used. 3432. Do you think that the actual grievance to any individual boy on the point either of expense or trouble is imaginary ? — Now you are asking a general question. As far as the drawer was concerned, yes. 3433. I mean simply as to the drawer ? — Yes. The drawer was nothing, but they were obliged to be generally responsible. The system was, usually, that the junior was a sort of banker, and he was allowed to draw upon the stationer for the supply of different people, and then he was responsible for having their amount of paper and pens to supply them with when they needed it. He was obliged to keep these in an open bureau, and he really could not tell who took things out of an open bureau when college was empty in play hours, and so on. There was constant trouble arising, and you could not say that a boy was in fault really, though there might be no paper forthcoming, because other people might have taken it away with- out his being able to protect himself. 3434. Boys were not entitled to take it away ?— No, but it was in an open bureau. 3435. {Mr. Thompson.) Who, in the last resort, paid for this paper ? — There was a supply from the stationer's. If it came to more the junior had to buy it himself ; but when I questioned the elder boys as to their own experience, this seemed to have been very rare. 3436. Supplied from the stationer's at whose ex- pense ? — The boys have an allowance of so much. It goes down to the parents. A boy is allowed so much. 3437. It did not come to this that the junior had to find funds for supplying the seniors with paper ? — No, the senior gave him his order. 3438. It was put down to the senior's account, not to the junior's ? — Not to the junior's. 3439. {Lord Lyttelton.) We have been told in this evidence that one of these juniors might spend out of his own money as much as 3/. in a half in getting these things for others ; have you noticed that ? — I saw it in the evidence. 3440. Do you say that cannot be ? — I do not know. He might have spent 50Z. if he chose, but I cannot understand how that expense could have been necessary for any honest purpose. 3441. Who ought to have paid it if the junior did not pay it ? — I can only say what has happened in other cases. I questioned all the senior election and I found that scarcely any of them had ever gone to any expense in their junior year for paper, or for such things, and almost the only one who had was O'Brien, who was in a peculiar position, for it so PUBLIC SCHOOLS COMMISSION : —SUNTTTES OP EVIDENCE. SOD happened that he was only given an order for one senior besides himself. Most of them get an order from a second election and a third election : but as the numbers of elections vary, this cannot always be managed ; for example, at the present moment the third election only consists of seven boys, so that of course a certain number of juniors have no third election. 3442. {Sir S. Northcote.) Does it not practically come to this, that every boy has a certain quantity of paper for the half ? — So much a month. 3443. But that instead of the seniors taking their own paper and keeping it for themselves, and the juniors taking their own paper and keeping it for themselves, the seniors tell the juniors .to take all the paper and to be ready to give it to them when they want it, and supposing there is no pilfering and that the supply per boy is adequate, that will, generally spe.akiug, find itself — that the paper will be forth- coming, but that the juniors are subject to this dis- advantage, that the paper may be pilfered in their hands by other persons, and that in that case they must bear the loss instead of the seniors bearing it ? — Yes. 3444. {Mr. Thompson.) Then loss may have been sustained, though you think not to the extent of 3/. in the term ? — Yes. 3445. {Sir S. Northcote.') There is, of course, this other disadvantage in it, that it makes a boy less careful as to the paper, because he has not to supply it himself? — That does not practically act, I think. I confess that I had not heard the system of the supply of paper complained of until Mr. Meyrick brought the complaint. Then when I in- vestigated it, I certainly did find it led to difficulties. 3446. {Mr. Twisleton.) Then in the same way you were not aware of the delegated power to the second election ? — No. 3447. {Lord Clarendon.) What is your opinion of the punishment of tanning. Do you know exactly how it is inflicted ? — I am really not quite certain that in this portion of the school dialect I may not make errors myself, because I believe that " tanning " and " tanning in way" denote two different things. 3448. Are you aware in what manner the ordinary tanning, I do not mean the tanning in way, is in- flicted ? — I have made in past times a rule that a racket shall never be used, nor a thick stick, nor anything which could hurt ; but it is said here that a racket has been used, and that is true I find. 3449. In the ordinary tanning, is not a boy made to stand upright with his arms down, and then to submit to any number of blows, first on one side of the head and then on the other ? — That is what they call " buckhorsing." 3450. Do you know what the distinction is between the buckhorsing and tanning ? — A senior only tanned, and a second election only buckhorsed. 3451. But is it the same punishment ? — No ; the one means caning or striking with a racket, as it has been by abuse, but the other means boxing the ears. 3452. {Sir S. Northcote.) In tanning an implement is used, and in buckhorsing not ? — That is one dis- tinction, I imagine. I have heard that the old West- minster rule was that only the fist should be used, but it is obvious just as much severity could be used with this as with a stick, for example. 3453. {Lord Clarendon.) But with reference to tanning in way, which, from the description Mr. Meyrick gave, appears to be very formidable and which may injure a boy for life, what has been the result of your inquiries upon that ? — 1 found there had been one case within the last year, and in past time that it was a thing which was known. I mean that old Queen's scholars speak of being aware of the thing, so that it did take place in some cases. 3454. {Mr. Thompson.) Tanning in the way ? — Yes ; kicking we will call it. A boy might be tanned in way and only have his ears boxed, as O'Brien says was his own case, and was the ordinary form. WEST- MINSTER. Rev. C. B. Scott. 3455. {Lord Clarendon.) Have you taken any notice of or put a stop to that very objectionable form of punishment ?— If you look at Stewart's evidence you wdl see a note which he has put in which answers that question. 3456. {Lord Lyttelton.) He says " Since we have H March 1863. ' been seniors we have not allowed such a thing to " be done " ?_Yes, at the bottom of the page of the corrected copy is this note : " Since this evidence was " given a regulation has been made by the Head " Master entirely abolishing this form of punishment, " and this will apply to all future seniors." 3457. {Sir S. Northcote.) Do you think it is suf- ficient, in order to stop an abuse of that sort, that you should give an order, or is it necessary that some step should be taken to take care that that order is not broken. For instance, I understood you to say just now that you had made an order some time ago that no racket should be used in tanning, yet that you found that they had been used ? — Yes ; I made the order five years ago. It requii-es constant watch- fulness. I have already said I think that we want considerable alterations in college to make it what it ought to be. 3458. {Lord Devon.) We understand that you have issued regulations for the mitigation of the exercise of the power of corporal punishment by the seniors ; have you ever considered the practicability of requiring that no senior should ever inflict cor- poral punishment on the spur of the moment, or with- out reference to a council of seniors, and if so, should you think it desirable ? — I was asked a question of that kind in my former evidence, and I spoke of such a power of appeal existing at Rugby, and its being very difficult in our system, stereotyped by so many years, to introduce it. 3459. Do I infer from what you say that you think such a rule would not work ? — Yes. 3460. Why should it not work there as well as at other schools, does it not work at Rugby ? — It was part of the system there altogether. 3461. {Mr. Vaughan.) I think you must be mis- informed about that ; there was, so far as I can remember, no appeal when Dr. Arnold went there, nor was there for some time afterwards, but the system of punishment by the sixth form existed ? — It is a thing that may be worth trying. I am not very sanguine of getting it to work at once, at all events. I should like now to go on with this evidence. As I said before, this is all wrong as to his being before a master saying his lessons, and it ought not to stand so. Then, in 2490, he says, " Boys have the power of inflicting punish- " ment ; they are perfectly irresponsible ; a master " standing by would not have any control over " them." That really is utterly false ; they could not do such things in the presence of masters. 3462. {Mr. Thompson.) He says "they do not " care about the masters knowing all this the least " in the world ? " — Perhaps they might not care about my knowing it if they punished for a moral offence. Then he speaks about their going past my window, and he comes back to it again at 2513. 3463. I asked if it was Mr. Scott's or the boys' rule. He says " the boys ;" is that true ? — No ; it is Mr. Liddell's rule ; Mr. Meyrick knows nothing about it. 3464. It is Mr. Liddell's rule kept up by you ? — I did not know it existed ; it is still in force. Lord Devon asked him a question to (he point whether it was any inconvenience. The truth is this : that in Mr. Liddell's time the juniors going to and from hall made so much noise when they were lounging outside his window, that he made a rule that they should go by the cloisters, which in fact is the shorter of the two ways from college, and the rule is that in coming to and from hall they shall go the short way and not the lono' way ; but inasmuch as the juniors may not go by my windows the seniors invariably do, though it is the longer way, but a junior is not under this restriction 3 S 3 510 PUBLIC SCHOOLS COMMISSION: — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. WEST- MI XSTEK. liev. C. B. Scott. on any other occasion; it is only to and froraliall. It is very absurd, and may now be at an end, but it was not the boys' rule, and as to its making a boy go a longer way round when he was sent a message, if he were ever sent from hall he would be told to go the It March 18G3, shortest way to his destination. 7 3-lt)o. (Mr. Vmighan.) You had not been at school at Westminster yourself and therefore were not when you came as Head Master likely to have brought many Westminster prejudices to the system ? — As I came from Eton I could not well have done so. 3466. {Lord Clarendon.) Will you go on to the next question 2487. Mr. Meyrick says "No '• junior between 1st January and 31st December," that is I think only the year which they pass as; uniors, " could say that he ever had an hour or a moment to " himself." Then you know the details that Mr. Meyrick gave in explanation of that statement. I think it is very important to have your opinion upon that, because it will appear that a junior who might even be a reading, a studious bo)', .absolutely loses one of the most important years that he is at school, which is wasted by fagging and those other claims upon him which IMr. Meyrick has mentioned ?— What I have to say about that is, that there is unfortunately a good deal of truth in the extent to which the occupation of their time interferes with their work, but it is not so much that a studious boy cannot find the opportunity of working, as that a boy who is temptedt obe idle, as most of them are, finds very considerable difficulty in doing his work, and that he is encouraged to be idler than he need be. In the account which Meyrick gave of the occupation of the day he has supposed himself to combine two functions, namely "watch" and " tenor," neither of which he could have or- dinarily more than once in ten days, and he describes that as if it were the ordinary routine of a day. 3467. I think by some questions put to him we separated those two ? — In question 2649 of young Mr. Meyrick's esidence, Mr. Vaughan asks "Are you " descriljing ^vhat you are lialile to every day, or what " j'ou are liable to on particular days when you are '■ in office ? " " What you are liable to every da}^." He knew tliat was not so, and in fact his very closing words were " this is ' watch,' which I am describing " now." {jSIr. Thompson.) He might have referred to Qrrands. Lord Lyttelton asks " What sort of " errands were they which you were sent upon ?" {Sir S. Northcote.) The question is as to having to answer the cry of " election," and then you see Lord Devon asks " The ' call ' is not liable to it every " day, is he ? " to which Meyrick replies " This " is watch which I am describing now," and so on ; then I ask " Can you be tenor and call on the same " da}'?" and he answers, " Yes, tenor and watch, and " call the night before." 3468. {Mr. Thompson.) Is it possible that he might be all those three ? — Yes. 3469. {Sir S. Northcote.) We must take all these questions together, and it is clear what he means ? — I think it would be misinterpreted by people ; it is not false if it merely applies to that. {Sir S. Northcote.) If you say it may lead to a misapprehension, it would be quite right that it should be made clear that what he is actually asked is with reference to answering the call of "election." {3Ir. Thompson.) There is no reason to suspect him of intentional misrepresentation. {Lord Devon.) There was a question No. 2678, on this point which puts it in a more pointed way. It is in answer to a question of Lord Clarendon. He says, " I have described all the things you can be in " one day, and that I have been in one day." Then he is asked, " You can be all these three things, call, " watch, and tenor in the same day ? " " Yes." 3470. {Lord Clarendon.) And he saj's, " Some " days you are not tenor and some days you are " watch, and some days you are tenor only. I think " it is as fair a description as can be given " ? — Well; ■would you like to know what tenor is ? 3471. Yes, if you please? — It is "ten hour," the watch from nine to ten. 3472. {I^ord Clarendon.) About this year that is comparatively wasted, which is a very important matter, you say that a studious boy might find the time for reading notwithstanding these difficulties ; but that the majority, that is to say the boys who are idle, would find great difficulty in fixing or in retaining their attention to their studies in con- sequence of these difficulties. Do you consider that what he stated about the constant occurrence of these calls is correct ? — It is exaggerated ; but it is true that they are considerably interrupted. 3473. And that an average boy loses in the year during which he is a junior ? — Yes. 3474. Can nothing be done to put a stop to that ; because it seems to me that if the evidence we have received is correct these interruptions are of the most frivolous kind, and an abuse of power — the calling out of " clock " and " election " every minute ? — Mr. Ingram hears the cry of " election." Mr. Meyrick says " Mr. Scott can hear it in his dining " room ;" he might as well have said " you could " hear it here." Mr. Ingram can hear in his house when election is called ; and it is better he should state his own evidence as to that. I do uot wish to state hearsay evidence. He certainly can deny that " elec- " tion " is constantly called in that way. 3475. But you do not deny that there are interrup- tions, whether it is by calling " election " or other- wise ? — They are very much interrupted. 3476. And that a boy loses in that year of being a junior, instead of gaining, which he ought to do. It is an important period of his school life ? — Yes. 3477. Certainly such a grievance as that does require to be remedied ? — Clearly. 3478. There would be no more difficulty, I sup- pose, in your interfering to put a stop to that by regulation, than as to the other matters to which your attention has been directed ? — I have, of course, done already all that regulation can do. I did the very thing that O'Brien spoke of, ruling that there should be no fagging between eight and ten in the evening ; but we want more attendance of servants. 3479. {Lord Lyttelton.) Have you anything to say about these boys being up at half-past three in order to call boys who very often do not get up till half-past six ? — I cannot speak from my own knowledge, of course. " Watch " had to get up for some one. 3480. At what time ? — You are told at four o'clock. {Lord Clarendon.) At half-past three, because ho has to fight the fires. 3481. "(y»/r. Twisleton.) I think O'Brien says four ? — Yes ; but he speaks of a senior being called at half- past three, that is an error. 3482. {Lord Clarendon.) No ; he speaks of their being called at four ? — The boy has to get up at four; the seniors generally do get up at five, or half-past four when they are working. Some of them do at least; it is not true that he has to get up for people who none of them get up. 3483. {Lord Lyttelton.) We were told that they required to be called, but many of them did not get up, and ihat they had to be called several times over ? — Some may have been so called. 3484. {I^ord Devon.) He draws the distinction in answer to a question of mine, because I think he said it was only one portion of the year. He draws a distinction between the summer half and the other half. He says, in the summer half the seniors are generally not called till five, therefore they have not to get up till about four ; whereas in the preceding half, he says they have to get up at half- past three^ because the seniors want to be called at four ? — It is not true, I wish it were, that the seniors ever get up in the summer to work. 3485. If they do not get up, are they called ? — No ; there is no such early call in the summer. 3486. {3Ir. Vatighan.) It has been admitted by one of the witnesses that it did not go all the year round ; that it was during the play -time, I think he said? — PUBLIC SCHOOLS COMMISSION : — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 511 During the play-time and for election. I think I inust driiw Lord Devon's attention to the fact that this answer to Lord Clarendon's question is Mr. Meyrick's (the father's) statement. 3487. {Mr. Thompson.) He says " The boy slept " nearly all the time when he came home on a Satur- " day afternoon ?" — I have made a rule that no boy sliould be " call " more than once a week. 3488. (Lord Lyttelioyi.) Do you think these little boys ought to be allowed to get up at four in the morning ? — I do not think it does them any harm once in the week. 3489. {Mr. Thompson.) Is it not as easy for the big boys to wake themselves as for little boys ? — The real difficulty is in providing fire. If boys are to get up in the cold morning and to work, they must have a fire ; they cannot work without it. There is no fire that can be laid so as to be lighted in the morning. There are only the two large fires in college, which are wanted in the evening, and they could not in the cold weather exist without having them. If we had any room which could be used in that way in the morning as a working room, where a fire could be laid the night before, then the thing might work better. 3490. {Mr. Vatighan.) Do you think it au ex- pedient plan that boys should get up at that early hour to work ? — It is far better that boys should work early in the morning than late at night. 3491. But if so, why should it not be a general regulation that the school should get up at that time ? — Because you cannot make willing horses and un- willing horses do the s.ame work. They do not get up by compulsion. 3492. Do you think that the ordinary hours of sleep which are allowed by the system of the school are more than really is enough for them ? — Yes. I do not conceive that boys need to go to bed at 10 and not to get up till half-past seven. 3493. But say till six. Do you not think that a boy who is between 10 and 18 years old, say, should sleep from 10 o'clock till six, and that the loss of any of it really is bad for him ? — I do not think the boys suffer from what they do. It is only in their last year that they get up early in this way ; regularly, I mean. It is only in the last year, and when they have a particular stress upon them. It is only those who are really anxious to use their time well who get up, and I do not think that they injure themselves. 3494. Do you not think that the boys being got up, we will say, two hours before the natural time, are really incapacitated from doing their work with the spirit and efficiency with which they would do it if they had the whole night's proper rest ? — I think if a senior goes to bed, as he does, after prayers, by a quarter past 10, and then gets up at five, that he has had an adequate quantity. 3495. We have heard that he gets up at four ? — No, he makes watch get up. 3496. Have we not heard of the senior boys being called at four, so that the sleep ceases at four ? — But he is not called at four. He says, " O'Brien is the one who gets up earliest." " How early ? " "At five o'clock." Is it not in evidence that the boys are obliged to call at four ? 3497. {Lord Devon.) Look at O'Brien's evidence, the first page and the fourth question ? — I really cannot be responsible for what Mr. Meyrick asserts. 3498. {Mr. Vaughan.) No ; but it is in O'Brien's evidence. He is asked, " At what hour ?" Then he says, " Sometimes as early as four o'clock, and some- " times at half-past three ; it was not often at half- " past three, but very often at four"? — Yes; well, that is when he would get up ; that was when he was a junior. The theory is that the " call" gets up, and then he makes the fire. 3499. Then the whole time between four and five you suppose to have been taken up by his preli- minary duties ? — No ; I suppose the first half hour would be making the fire ; then he would call them ; then he would go down ; go on with his fire and boil his kettle ; that is the real truth of the case. 3500. {Mr. Twisleton.) Supjiosing it were really desirable that a boy should get up at five in the morning, would it not be better that there should be a servant to call him and to light the fire for him, than that a junior should do it ? — Obviously ; but there are no servants to do it. WEST- MINSTER. Rev. C. B. Scolt. 14 March 1S63. 3501. {Lord Lyttelton.) Look at question 2975, Mr. O'Brien's evidence : — " You did work in the four and six ? " in the Yes" ?— Jlost morning between true, he did. 3502. I thought you said he did not get up till five ? — No ; as a senior I said he did not get up then. I thought I had made that clear. I say the senior gets up at five ; he is not called at four, though call is obliged to get up e.irlier than he calls anybody. 3503. {Lord Clarejidon.) Have you ever known a boy's health in any way injured by the system he is exposed to when a junior ? — I have known a boy cer- tainly want rest. 3504. A boy — not more than one boy ? — A boy now and then ; I have known occasionally a boy evidentlj' want rest. 3505. Then there was physical deterioration and very little moral improvement during the year ? — . Yes. 3506. {Lord Lyttelton.) You think you have done as much as can be done by way of regulation about that ? — As much as can be done at present, I think. In answer 2510 of Mr. Meyrick's (the father's) evi- dence, he says, " There is also one of the second election " doing duty the whole of each day out of school as " a hall porter to college, under the title of monos, " except that, unlike a gentleman hall porter, he " must, (no matter what the weather is,) never be " seen inside college when on duty?" — That is not correct, there is no such rule. He must not be alto- gether away from his post, but he may be inside the door of college, and always is when it is wet. 3507. {Mr. Thompson.) There is no one to see whether he is in college or not ? — No. 3508. He is there alone ?-^Yes ; I have sometimes myself had to set monos an imposition for being nan inventus. 3509. Then you recognize the importance of the office ?— Unless there is some servant to watch, monos must do so, or the property in the college might be swept oflP. 3510. Might not monos be swept away too ? — He never has been. I think moiws would make it heard, and in that event I should certainly send down a senior to see what was the matter. I think the sixth would be soon on the scene of action if any violence were attempted. Then, in 2511, he talks about "the " unceasing cry of election." Mr. Ingram can tell you that there is a gross exaggeration in that state- ment. 3511. Do you think that Mr. Ingr.am can always hear the cry " election " ? — Yes, I think so. 3512. {Lord I^yttelton.) O'Brien's evidence rather controverted that ? — There is only one thin door between Mr. Ingram's house and college. 351 3. There is the whole length of his hall between that and the dining room. Supposing he is sitting in the dining room ? — I know a loud voice in college is heard in his house, and " election" must be calletj so as to be heard from one room to another along the centre passage. They must roar " election," and they do so. It is not true that I could hear it in my house. Then, in 2511, he talks about the "teas;" there are not four teas, there have been three ; that is one of the things which jSIr. Ingram has been trying to amend. 3514. {Mr. Twisleton.) Since Mr. Meyrick gave his evidence ? — It was not in connexion with this. I do not want to go into that now. It is a long story about the packets of tea that used to come from North & Simpson's, and the peculiar division and distribu- 3 S4 512 PUBLIC SCHOOLS COMMISSION : — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. WEST- MINSTER, Bei'. C. B. Scott. tion of tliem ; the result was they had too many teas and that the juniors were too often engaged in makiii" tea. The I'estrietions about there being no fa<'"'inn' between eight and ten at once deals with that, because that was the time. It was that, in point 14 March 1863. of fact, which the seniors gave up and which O'Brien meant to give up in proposing such a restriction. Well, then he mentions " tlie put to rights chairs for prayers." There again is another thing upon which in the first place I may say it ought not to be necessary to carry that quantity of chairs ; there ought to be fixed benches round certain jiortions of the upper election rooms which might furnish sitting, or rather kneeling room at prayer time so as not to have all the chairs of college shifted for that and then shifted back again. 3515. (Mr. Thompson.) The supply of chairs is very scanty, I think, in college ? — Yes ; it is inade- quate. IMr. Ingram has now given them some, as I have given them other things, but they used to buy them all out of their own money. 3516. {Lord Devon.) They have supplied chairs once since tlie formation of the college, and the boys have been obliged to keep them up siuce ? — I did not know that the Chapter ever had supplied tliem. 3517. {Lord Clarendon.) I should like to ask you one more question about this " Boots ," because from the manner in which it is put here, it would appear that there is a. boy who wears a particular pair of heavy boots, in order to be ready to inflict this very savage punishment. You distinctly say that there is nothing of the kind ? — No ; what I say is, that the second election, there referred to, did get the nick name of " Boots," from having a particular pair of heavy boots, and that being annoyed at such a soubriquet he left his boots at home, which was a sensible thing to do, and has never had them since, certainly not as a second election. 3518. And you are not aware of that boy with those boots on having inflicted any tanning upon other boys ? — I can positively say that he never did kick any boy. 3519. {Mr. Vanghan.) What do you say as to the punishment of tanning 'in way in any case ? — The kicking ? 3520. Yes ? — Of course that it was atrocious. The boys themselves were very much ashamed when it came out. 3521. {Mr. Thompson.) I understood Mr. Meyrick to say that the second election who inflicted this tan- ning took a run at the boy as he stood at the sink. I was there the other day ; I particularly observed that he could not run much further than the Avidth of this table ? — No, he could not. 3522. It is but fair to place this on record ; the image conveyed to me by Mr. Meyrick's words, was that of a boy running the length of this room to kick another boy ? — When Mr. Meyrick was asked by Mr. Ingram in my presence whether he knew of any boy being per- sonally injured by the punishment in college, he said " no," he did not. Since then, he has stated vaguely that an old Westminster has spoken of another old Westminster who was nearly done for by it, but he gives no names. But in answer 2513 he says, "as every " boy knows that there are pens and quarterns in " this drawer, every one, whether town boy or Queen's " scholar helps himself." The answers to that is, that no one except the seniors and the Head Master ever takes a piece of paper out of that drawer, or a pen, or anything of the kind, and the quantity taken out by me may, perhaps, be about ten pieces of paper in the course of a year, and as to the seniors, I scarcely ever see them take anything out ; the only time that they do so is when they are writing over an exercise in school, which is a rare thing, but which sometimes happens in the morning. Then as to the rule of the junior Queen's scholars not passing my window, that was made by Mr. Liddell and not by the boys ; and it was simply with reference to going to and from hall, and -was no grievance to any- body. Of course as to its being for the privacy of the master when it was a public pathway, it is ridiculous. It was because the juniors had loitered on their way to or from hall outside those windows at idle moments and made a noise. Then he says, " The masters know " of these punishments because they see the broken " things lying about with which they have beaten a " fellow." That is a simple fiction. 3523. {Lord Clarendon.) In what does the Action consist ? — No master ever saw any such thing. 3524. {Mr. Thompson.) By " the broken things," he means the broken sticks, I suppose ? — Yes. In 25 13 of Mr. Meyrick's evidence he says " about eleven o'clock " when juniors are in bed, if they are lucky enough." From his son's evidence it appears they are all in bed ; if you connect the two you will see there is exaggeration. " At what time were the juniors to be " in bed ? — They ought to be in bed by half-past ten, " but when you were 'put to rights chairs' and " ' light the fire,' it was nearly impossible to get up " into the dormitory before twenty minutes to eleven." Then, at 2545, Mr. Twisleton asks, "Will you go " back to a question which was previously asked you " as to the practical inconvenience arising to a boy " from not being allowed to leave the school-room " without the permission of some of the boys." All that is wrong. 3525. {Mr. Twisleton.) I quite understand that we were entirely under a misapprehension ? — Then Mr. Vaughan says, " Do you think it might ever come to " this that a boy would in this way wreak a spite " against another for passing him in the school," that is another point, involving the same error. I am not certain whether it was ckarly understood from the questions which follow that, though we take the best of the candidates who come to us for college, it may happen that some of the candidates are very bad. Then again as to Lord Devon's question with reference to the asking leave to go out of school, he used the phrase " out of school." {Lord Devon.) Yes ; I meant going down school. I explain it, you see. I afterwards use the words " down school." 3526. {Lord Lyttelton.) The next question sets that right ? — Well, I fear it may be misunderstood. Then we come to question 2574 as to Meyrick's per- formances at the athletic sports. Fortunately we have got the records of what actually happened. In 1861 Meyrick only entered for two races. He won flat race 300 yards for all under 16, and also flat race 100 yards for all under 15. He did not .enter for flat race of 500 yards for all under 15. In 1862, he was over 15. He entered for nine competitions, probably he did not try in all. However, in the flat race, 300 yards for all under 16, the only thing in which, judging from the year before he could be expected to win, he came third, and the two who beat him were both boys entered at the school since the last competition, i.e. he held exactly the same place as in the year before. Then young Meyrick himself is questioned about these things, and at 2837 he is asked, " Did you " obtain prizes for athletic exercises in any way before " you were in college ? — Yes, I got three or four." He got two. " What were they for ? — For running, " jumping, throwing the cricket ball, and so on." He got nothing but for running. " Where did you " run ? — In Vincent Square. What besides running ? " — Jumping. How many competed with you for "jumping? — Ten or twelve." He did not enter his name on the card for jumping. No one therefore, apparently, competed with him for jumping. "Have " you tried for those prizes since you have been in " college ? — I tried for two or thi'ee since I have " been in college and I only won one thing." He put down his name for nine things. 3527. ( The Secretary.) I see he entered for the cricket ball in 1861. I do not know what he did ? — Then perhaps he competed. If so, Mr. Meyrick is wrong in saying that he started for several things and won them all. The boy has been PUBLIC SCHOOLS COMIIISSION: — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. sia Ho is askca, "Did except tlio cricket bragging beyoinl the truth. " you ever win in anything, " ball, which required strength as distinct from " agility ? " If he had been honest he would liavo said, " I did not win in that." Then at 2o79 of ^Ir. Merrick's evidence, he says, " lam charged in the " bill for the last half year 4/. 4s. for servants ; now " that for 40 boys would give for the year a sum of " 336Z. for servants." That is really a matter of considerable importance. The servants who are employed in college are as follows : Lloyd the porter. 3528. {Lord Lyttehon.) Id he the one called Col- lege John ? — Yes. He is paid 100/. a year for him- self and his son, and 8/. per annum for blacking brushes, and cloths and washing. 8529. {T^ord Clarendon.) Washing for himself? — No, washing the cloths and things that are used in college. 3530. (Mr. Vaitffhcai.) There .are two servants, in fact, going under the name of College John ? — His son helps him. Mrs. Lloyd, the bedmaker is paid 50/. per annum for herself, 10/. per annum for assistants, and 5/. per annum for brushes, washing, and such things. 3531. Is she the wife of the porter ? — She happens to be, but she might not be. 3532. (Sir S. Xorthcote.) Is it usually a family arrangement ? — This is the first that has been. It is the new system. 3533. {Lord Devon.) There has always been a John ? — Yes, and always a bedmaker, I suppose. But there were changes when the new rooms were added in 1845. Perhaps you would like to see this. It is the official statement of what Mr. and Mrs. Lloyd's duties are : — "E. Lloyd, — Is paid 100/. per annum for himself and son, and 8/. per annum for blacking brushes, cloths, and washing them. His duties : — to black shoes — 40 pairs — make up fires, wash out urinals daily, clean knives and forks, in hall, wait at dinner and supper, lock up at all times, wait in cloister gallery in the evenings, to go messages till eight ; to go short messages in the neighbourhood." "Mrs. Llo_yd, — Is paid 50/. per annum for herself, iO/. per annum tor assistance, and 51. per annum for brushes, washing cloths, &c. Her duties : — To make the 40 beds and empty slops twice a day ; to sweep the dormitory every day ; to sweep cloister gallery and passage, and dust every day. The same in washing room ; the s.arae at back and front stairs ; wash up tea things ; wash the dormitory once in six weeks ; the cloister gallery once in three weeks, and school library three times a j-ear. Six people em- ployed to wash, to sweep the school library and French room twice a week ; also new class room." John complains of the penny postage much as diminishing his income. 3534. {Lord Clarendon.) Was John paid for going messages, that he complains of the penny postage ? — Yes ; he used to get sixpences and fourpenny pieces. 3535. That was recognized ? — Yes ; nobody knew exactly about it. I have accounted now for 100/., 8/., 50/., 10/., and 5/., in all 173/. Then there remains 163/. Of this I find 150/. a year is pajd for the matron and service in the sick house. 3536. Where does this 336/. come from ? — From the parents. 3537. But this 336/., which comes from the boys, is paid to the masters, is it not ; who is that p.aid to ? — It is paid to the servants ; it passes through the hands of the receiver of the Dean and Chapter. 3538. * {Lord Lyttelton.) Does he pay it to the servants direct ? — Yes. 3539. (Lord Clarendon.) It is a charge in the tutor's bills ? — Yes. The Chapter send in the bills in the name of the matron of St. Peter's College, and they themselves pay the matron her salary, and the niatron is not cognizant of the amount that goes in, 1. WEST- MINSTER. Uev. C. B. Scoll. 3540. In the tutors' bills that are sent to the p.ircnts there are the different items, and amongst others the tutors' fees ? — Yes. 3541. Is all that sent nominally by the Dean and Chapter, and not the tutor, to the parents, and then do the p.arents pay to the Dean and Chapter, and not l*March 1863, to the tutors ? — -Yes. 3542. In the case of the collegers ? — Yes ; we are only speaking about college. 3543. {3Ir. Thompson.) It is not done through Mr. Ingram ?— No ; their tailors' bills, and such things, pass under his eye, but he sends them aU in to the receiver. 3544. {Sir S. Northcote.) And the parents pay J.Ir. Marsh directly ?— Yes, they do ; but they pay him under the jwm de grj^erreof the matron of St. Peter's College, in whose name an account stands in Drum- mond's bank. It is in her name only ; the cheques that they honour to that account are signed by the receiver of the Dean and Chapter, and countersigned by the steward. 3545. {Lord Clarendon.) What are the duties of the matron ? — The matron's real duties arc the charge of the sick-house and the linen of the boys. 3546. {M?: Tivislcton.) Each boy, I see, is charged four guineas a year for matron and servants in sana- torium, and four guineas a yeav for servants in college ? — Yes ; I think so. 3547. Will you look at this return {handirtg paper to the witness) ? — So it is. That is my own return. I have shown how it is all approjjriated, except 13/. a year, which is, I suppose, reserved to cover occa- ' sional loss from vacancies. Then what I want to say is, that in addition to the matron, .and to Lloyd, and the. bedmaker, the butler of hall is not paid by the parents ; the Chapter pay him. He is charged with the care of the. dinner in hall, and carves, and so on, and he is bound to give the remnants to the poor. There was a curious fea- ture connected with that, that at the time when they were put on short commons, so that they really had not- enough to eat, the amount given to the poor was both larger in quantity and better in quality than had ever been before. 3548. How is that accounted for ? — Because there was strict supervision at the time. There is one more thing I have to say. There is the stoker, as we call him, Jackson, whose duty it is to attend to the fires for school, to light the boiler which heats the hot water, and to attend to the fires in the two class rooms, and gener.ally to do work about school, keeping things clean and tidy in Little Dean's Yard ; but he is not our servant wholly, be is under Ryde, the Clerk of the Works of the Dean and Chapter, and during the summer when there are no fires, he is almost entirely working for Ryde, but in the winter be does a good deal for us, lighting the gas, putting it out, attending to the fires, and keeping the boiler boiling. 3549. Is not the lighting the gas and putting it out the duty of tenor ? — No, that is in college, but I mean in school. We have the butler in hall, and half as you may say of Jackson the stoker provided for us b}' the Chapter, besides the matron, Lloyd, and the bedmaker. 3550. {3Ir. Vaughan.) Do you think that the money is judiciously laid out for servants? — We must have persons to perform the duties that they perform, and it is uecessiiry that the person who is porter of college should be a trustworthy person, and that prac- tically means he must be well paid, 3551. Do you think that the money is judiciously laid out, particularly in reference to the number of persotis that are employed ? — I think we want more servants, but I am not prepared to say that the ser- vants are paid exorbitantly. I do not think they are. 3552. (Lord Clarendon.) Do you not think that many of those services which are performed by the juniors, and which are of a menial character, might be more properly performed by servants ? — Yes, but I think we certainly want more space in college. I think we want an additional I'ooqi, 3 T 5H. PUBLIC SCHOOLS COMMISSION :— MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. WEST- MINSTER. liev. C. B. Scott. •6553. {Lord Devon.) Where would you add it ?— That is the great difficulty, because there is nothing except College Gardens. 3554. For what purposes would you add it ?— I think there ought to be another master in coiumuui- 14 March 1863. cation with college besides the under-master. • 3555. How could you put a tutor or assistant master nearer to college than Mr. Ingram is ? — I do not think you could put any one nearer to college, but I should like to have a master whose special duty was the charge of the juniors. 3556. Why should not the gentleman living in Mr. Ingram's house be that master ?— I think you want a separation. I should myself wish not only to have more service provided in college, so that the fires and the lighting of the gas could be looked after without making it tlie duty of the boys to do so, but I should like also to have an entire separation between the junior and senior elections, at night, if I had a security for proper discipline being kept up. 3557. (Mr. Thompson.) Among the juniors? — Yes. It would never do to leave the juniors to them- selves without any authority of seniors to which they were amenable. There would be bullying un- questionably. 3558. {Lord Devon.) Would your idea then be to have a separate building, connected more or less directly with the college, in which should reside an assistant master, and there might be also a room in which th? junior boys might sit and work ? — I think the present room for the juniors might do. I should like to have apartments for the master on that side in communication with college if it could be provided. 3559. Should you see any difficulty in taking a corner of the college garden for that purpose in im- mediate conjunction with the sanatorium or with college ? — I think it could be done. 3560. {3Ir. Thompson.) On the side of College Street ? — Yes, at that corner. 3561. {Mr. Vaiighan.) How many boys are there in college altogether ? — 40. 3562. Do you think that one master is not enough to take proper care of 40 boys and to see that abuses do not exist ? — It certainly appears to me that with present arrangements, it is very difficult to check the system efficiently. 3563. {3Ir. Thompson.) You would propose, per- haps, something analogous to the tutor in college at Eton ? — That is what has suggested itself to me. 3564. He lives under the same roof ? — Yes. 3565. {Mr. Vaughan.) How many boys are there in the largest boarding house ? — 35 is the limit. 3566. How many masters are there to attend to those boys ? — One, but he lives in the midst of them. 3567. If you had one master more close to the boys would that answer the purpose, do you think, without a separation of the senior and junior boys ? — I think it might do so. In the first instance I should not object to try the experiment, if more servants were provided, of seeing how the thing could be worked. 3568. {Mr, Twisleton.) Is the gentleman who has 35 boys in his boarding house called the senior assistant ? — Yes. 3569. In the returns here there is a report from him in which he says : " The arrangement of the " meals and the sufficient provision by means of " domestic servants for all legitimate wants leave no " temptation to boys to exact objectionable services " from one another. My practice also of superin- " tending the work of the younger boys for an hour " in the evening, though directly intended to eu- " courage industry only, is indirectly a great security " against any encroachments on their time or comfort " being made by the senior boys." Therefore he does prevent it by the system which he pursues of living among these 35 boys ? — Yes. 3570. So that if a master in the same way lived among the 40 boys in" college he could prevent abuses in the same maaner ? —Yes, he might. 3571. {Mr. Thompson.) He would, I suppose, have to contend with the force of old tradition to an extent which the boarding-house master would not ? — He would. It would by no means be so easy. 3572. {Mr. Twisleton.) There is a master in col- lege at Eton. It might be done at Westminster just as it is at Eton, might it not ? — At Eton the Lower Master is not in any way in connexion with college, and before the master in college was ap- pointed, the college was far more separated from any magisterial superintendence than with us, because the Head Master's house was quite separate, and he could not hear what went on. 3573. But now somewhat of a remedy has been applied at Eton ? — Yes. 3574. If proper steps were taken a remedy could be applied to Westminster ? — We want more space for one thing. 3575. {Lord Devon.) Putting aside for a moment the necessity of more space in order to have a new pupil room for the juniors, or something analogous to that, there seems to be no reason why anybody occupying Mr. Ingram's house should not be exactly, in the same relative position to the juniors as the gentleman living in special charge of the college at Eton ; he is nearly as close ? — It is a very diiferent thing Mr. Marshall going to sit in his own hall and a master going to sit in the junior election room. 3576. You want a separate pupil room. If you had a separate pupil room for the junior boys in im- mediate connexion with Mr. Ingram's house, any' gentleman living in Mr. Ingram's house might be just in the same relative position with the junior boys as the master in college at Eton ? — Not entirely. 3577. You would not want new apartments for the master ; having Mr. Ingram in his house on one side I do not see the necessity for new buildings for another master ? — Well, I will not say it could not be worked. Then I go on for a moment with young Meyrick's evidence. At 2610 he says, that you are supposed to be at every cubicle at once at the same time. That is really nonsense. At 2618 he men- tions the dips. I meant to bring you a dip, but I forgot it. They are little globular ink bottles like a small ball with a neck to it. They fill them with cotton, put a wadding of cotton in them, and soak it in ink. When you learn how to take ink out of them, which requires a little twitch, they are very good ink bottles and do not spill. My seniors think itbelow their dignity to have dips, and the consequence is, a constant inking of the desks from the ink bottles. At 2626, speaking of the kicking, he says, " it was " quite a common punishment." That really is an utter fiction. Then, at 2635, he says, " you have " to take them up at eight o'clock and at nine you " have to bring them down and put them in his " room." It is never the case that any senior's books are taken up between eight and nine ; they always come to me for repetition ; first of all repetition, and then composition being looked over. They only bring one little book and they carry it in their hands. 3578. {Lord Clarendon.) At what hour are the books taken up ? — At ten. 3579. The error is in saying between eight and nine instead often? — Yes. Then he says, "You are " allowed ten minutes when you are watch forbreak- " fast." Watch is allowed 25 minutes for breakfast. 3580. Unless the whole of this is incorrect, how do you make out that watch can get 25 minutes for breakfast, when he performs these several duties both of working for his senior and being in school ? — They all go to breakfast at nine. Then he says, " At five " minutes past nine you are sent out by a senior to go " a good way to shop to get him something." The senior would be himself at hall. 3581. At breakfast?— Yes. 3582. That probably would be the time when he would be wanting these things ? — No ; because they send monos. to get them these things before breakfast. 3583. He says, " It very often happens when you " are watch that at five minutes past nine you are sent PUEIJC SCHOOLS COMMISSION: — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 515 " out by a senior to go a good way to shop to get him " something, and you do not come back till ten minutes " past nine, and if you are not in by the quarter tho " second election will not take any excuse. They say, " ' you could have been back if you liked,' and they make you stand up and hit you on the head"? — I believe that to be entirely inaccurate. 3584. Do you believe it to be inaccurate from inquiry you have made since you have seen this evi- dence, or from what you have known generally ? T^rom inquiry I have made since. 3585. What is inaccurate. That a junior is ever sent out to shop while his senior is at breakfast ? — That I believe to be a rare thing. 3586. Do you believe that they all breakfast together and have the same time for breakfast ? — No, watch has 25 minutes. 3587. And the others have half an hour ? — Yes. 3588. {Lord Devon.) Juniors as well as seniors? — They are not compelled to come back any earlier. It is only watch. Watch's duty is to pro- tect college. 3589. {Mr. Tfiompso?/.) I thought monos did that? —No ; monos is merely during school hours, and watch at other times. Monos practically idles dur- ing school hours, in most cases. 3590. (Lord Clarendon.) How long does a boy perform this duty of monos ? — One day. 3591. How often ? — It comes round in turn to the second election and the captain of the juniors, the liberty boy. It conies round about once in twelve days at present. Some idlers get it too often, I think. 3592. Are thej' allowed to take the place of others ? — It is not always easy to recollect whether the right boy is monos. If you say, " I saw you the other day," the answer is, " Please, sir, I am taking it for somebody " else, and he is to take my turn." 3593. Would it not be easy to have a printed list kept, and for that to be inspected to see if a boy does take more than his turn ? — It would. The duty is no very great grievance really, but I wish it were abolished. 3594. It is a grievance if an idle boy is able to turn it to his own account, and to shirk the whole dav that he is monos, so that he will do very little else ? — Yes, but you must not confuse watch and monos. At 2644 he says, " Sometimes I have been a week " or a fortnight together without having leave out " of college." That does not mean during the regular play hours, it means the short times from half-past nine to ten, and half-past two to half-past three, after breakftist and after dinner. Well, then Lord Lyttelton asks, " What sort of errands were they which you " were sent upon ? — To go with caps and gowns to " the tiiilor's ; that was very common ; and also going " to the post, and going to Sutclifl's, the confec- " tioner's, and Harvey's. Do you mean that there " was no system of sending letters for the boys ? — " No, not in college." We have got a pillar letter box just at the gate. It is not more than a minute's walk to go to the box. 3595. Yes, but whether you had a box close to the gate or at a little distance, it still is an interruption to a boy who is reading ? — But they are not sent at reading times. At those times the college is locked up. 3596. {Mr. Twisleton.) Still if there was a porter you would prefer it ? — Clearly. I am not, however, prepared to say it should be the porter's duty to go perpetually on messages. 3597. {Mr. Thompson.) Are you prepared to say what addition to the present servants you would recommend ? — I clearly think there ought to be a porter on duty throughout the day. If it is necessary, as perhaps it is, to keep College open, then there ought to be a servant to protect it. 3598. Any other addition ? — That would do away at once with watch and monos. 3599. It seems according to Mr. Meyrick's evidence that the fires are never liglited except by the juniors? Because they light them so early. You suppose they might be lighted by the ! ?-— In theory. The question is never raised because they are 3600. servants whether they should be lighted, always lighted already. 3601. The grate is never properly cleaned ?— It is never cleaned at all, properly or improperly. 3602. He says : " You have to clean the grates of " a morning "?_To rake out the cinders. 3603. {Lord Clarendon.) He merely means suffi- ciently to enable him to lay the fire ? Yes. The bedmakers in cleaning up the room take away tho cinders ; but lighting the fires is not mentioned as any part of Lloyd's duty. 3604. In college what additional attendants would you have ?— In college I think there ought to be a servant on duty to make up the fii-es, and do such things. 3605. Would you have them for the purpose of making tea for the seniors ? — I do not see why there should not be a scout regulaily in college. It would not do to have a servant going to and fro perpetually through the door. But then there is no place where he could be. There is no room he could have except the middle room, where there is no fire, so he would be frozen ; but there ought to be a place, a jjantry as it were, in communication with college, where there should be a man like an Oxford scout. 3606. All the time the boys were in that building ? — The porter whose duty it should be in the day to be there as a guard ought to be there in the evenings, and then he should look to the fires also. 3607. Would one servant be sufllcient for 40 boys, supposing fagging were done away with ? — I should not want to do away with all fagging. There would be no grievance in their getting tea once in the even- ing. The main troubles, as far as I can make out, from the fagging, have been the getting up in the morning, and the paper. The paper I have done away with, and as to the morning I have made rules such as I thought would suffice. But the question is how to deal with the early call. If you could make a master perpetually go about between four and five you might stop it for the time, and kill him in the process, perhaps, but you cannot work that. 3608. {Lord Lt/ttelton.) Do you not think that boys might have alarums and call themselves in that way ? — That is not the difficulty ; it is the fire. 3609. {Lord Devon.) Would not there be two remedies ; one to prohibit boys getting up before that time, and another that the servant should do the calling and the fire lighting ? — Yes, if you could have a servant in by five I think that might do. 3610. {Mr. Thompson.) If you were constructing the college de novo, would you put all the boys to sleep in one dormitory ? — No. 3611. {Mr. Twisleton.) What would you think the best arrangement of dormitories in a new establish- ment, if you were free ? — I thiuk perhaps separate rooms with proper supervision are the best, but failing that I certainly would not have the body of elder boys in communication with the younger ones. I would cut them off and put, by preference, a master, or if not a monitor, who should have privileges and be one whom you could trust, in charge of the disci- pline solely of the juniors, and separate tho others. 3612. {Mr. Thompson.) Would it be possible to put up a t.iiiporary screen in the middle of the great dormitory ? — The difficulty is the communication with the back way. 3613. {Lord Devon.) Could you accomplish that satisfactorily without having an extra building put at right angles to the present dormitory ? — I have never yet seen any satisfactory plan. 3614. That would be feasible ?— Perhaps. 3615. How would such an arrangement as that be consistent with the taking, if it be desirable, of any portion from the present fagging ? — I think myself that fagging is not a thing which is effectually dealt with in any way so well as by providing for those things which are onerous duties being performed. 3T3 WEST- MINSTER. C. B. Scotf. 14MarchlSG3. 51G PUBLIC SCHOOLS COMMISSION: — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. WEST- MINSTEIl. llcv. C. D. Scott. 3616. By others ?— Yes. 3617. I will ask you a more general question, if you do not object to give us your opinion about it. Wliat is your opinion as to the effect on tlie nature of the fagger or the faggec of the existence of the U March 1863. system in a modified sliape, sueh as may be said now . to exist in boarding-houses at Eton?-— I have answered that in my evidence. I think distincti}', that it is the chief safeguard against a system of bullying. 3618. Therefore you would not wish to abolish it altogether ? — No. 3619. (Mr. Thompson.) Would there not be a tendency in the big boys to fag the boys immediately under them, viz., the third election?— I would not sepa- rate them altogether, only at certain hours. 3620. You think nothing short of that would be effectual ? — I think so. 3621. (3fr. Vaughan.) Do you happen to know of that system being adopted in any other public school of cutting off the younger boys from the elder boys ? — No, I do not, except so far as separate rooms do it. 3622. {Lord Devon.) What should you think of a modification of the system of fagging by whicli each boy had only one master, and was responsible only to one master ? — That is so in theory. 3623. Is it so in theory now. Has not the senior power to fag any junior ? — Merely to send him with messages. That is a general thing which exists in any school. Well, then, at 2654 of young Meyrick's evidence he says, " There is no one to tell you, when you first go into college, what words you are to say." It is the special duty of your second election. It is what he is appointed for, and what he does. Other things certainly he may do which are not so pleasant. 3624. (Mr. Tirislcton.) A boy would soon learn that ? — Yes. lie says you have to use or conform to thirty or forty different set forms of words. There are thirteen or fourteen, perhaps, not thirty or forty. At question 2730he is asked, " Is it ever the case that boys " deliberately get themselves confined to up school in " order to get off fagging ? No, they dare not, because " the penalty is so great. But the seniors could not " discover whether it was done deliberately ? No, they " could not, but still they would give them a licking " every time." — I think, certainly, the masters would not say, as far as they can judge, that boys ever sought to be kept up school, but it is said that the seniors would give them a licking every time. That is not the fact. 3625. {Mr. Thompson.) Can you form an opinion ns to whether young Meyrick was right in the de- scription he gives of the deterioration that took place in his morale during the time he was in the college ? — To a certain extent I think he was. That is natural if a boy is perpetually brooding over the indignities he considers himself to be subjected to. 3626. (Mr. Tivisleton.) Or which he has actually received ? — Yes ; what I mean is, that as a matter of fact in all my past experience, I have not found a boy who was anxious to work, unable to work as a junior, but I have found the idle boys more idle. 3627. {3Ir. Thompson.) Would you call Meyrick an idle boy ? — Not while he was a town boy. I do not know whether this is very lucid in its present shape, but I extracted for the last few years the positions lield by the four head juniors of each year in their forms. {The witness handed in the foU owing paper.) Places of four first juuiors of the year in Form at Christmas 1856—1862. The three forms next to Vlth are quoted as A, B, C. The numbers mark place iu class. 1862. VI Form A12 B8 B9 3628. {Lord Devon.) But the head junior is ex- empt from any services which other juniors are called • Partly absent from ill healtli. 1857. 1858. 1859. 1860. 1861. 1 A5 Al *A6 A6 B9 2 A3 A8 *A5 A5 Bll 3 A4 A9 Al Bl B8 4 A8 B2 A7 B3 C2 upon to perform ? — That is the curious feature ; that in some cases he was below those who have these services to do. In all these cases, except 1851 and 1862, when the captain stood entirely apart from the rest, and was a boy of far greater ability, in every year the captain was beaten in his junior year at Christmas by one or more who had these duties alleged to bo so onerous. Of course if a boy broods over his indignities and does nothing, he will not liold the same position. I quite accept that statement, I think Meyrick had been over indulged at home. 3629. I will put it shortly in this way. What has your experience been as to the comparative efficiency of the liberty-boy at successive elections, and that of the boy subjected to duties from which he was ex- empt ? — The best answer I can give you to that, is this return of the last six years, and from that it appears that excepting in two years when the head boy was in every way far superior in ability to the others, he was invariably beaten at Christmas by one or more of those who had had those duties from which he was exempt. 3630. {3Ir. Vaughan.) Apropos to that statement, will you permit me to ask you what was the difference between the test of proficiency and ability that made him liberty boy, and that which he was subject to afterwards ? — It is the difference between school work and the challenge. 3631. I ask that for two purposes, first, to ascertain the value of the fact that juuiors could beat the liberty bqy sometimes in their first year in College ; and, secondly, also incidentally, the value of the system of challenge as a test of attainment ? — There is no doubt that the challenge is in some respects a different test from that ordinarily applied to form work, and for the time it very considerably disturbs a boy's ordinary work iu school ; but, as a matter of fact, the captaiu of his election, though beaten in his junior year, in every ease, subsequently regained the position he had held in the challenge. 3632. Do you attribute that to the fact of the other boys subsequently doing less work than they had done in the first year when they were liable to this fagging? — I really cannot now recollect what I saw of each boy's diligence at the time, but it confirms the impres- sion I had before, namely that the system did not, in a case where a boy wished to be diligent and was diligent, prevent his working. 3633. {Lord Clarendon.) Do you think that the boys having occasionally to get up so early in the morning, had opportunities for studying in consequence ? — I do, as a matter of fact. 3634. {3Ir. Vaughan.) Between the several calls do you think, as a matter of fact, he would employ his time in study ? — Yes, a diligent boy would. There Avould be some seniors who wished to get up at five, and others who wished to be called at six or half-past six. He has only to run upstairs. He knows when it will be, and goes upstairs and comes down again. It is no serious interruption. Then at 2784 he says, " I have been told of two or three " cases of boys who have been so severely and dan- " gerously kicked." I do not believe that any such case exists. 3635. {Lord Clarendon.) Of a boy having been really injured ? — Yes. He says he has been told of two or three cases. He does not appear to have kuo's\Ti one. 3636. You say he cannot have known the case of a boy being dangerously kicked, but he may have heard of it from other persons ? — I have enquired as fully as I could, and I cannot find any instance of any boy being injured by it. I dare say it would have been a very different thing if young Meyrick had come in as captain, which he hoped to do. It was a great mor- tification to him being beaten. 3637. {3L-. 77;o/«/)50w.) Washeacleverboy ? — Yes. Then " Mr. Scott's flogging," which is talked about here, does not seem to be anything very formidable. What is meant is handing. It is not called floggin-g fUBLIC SCHOOLS COJOIISSION :— MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 5ir He says, "His flogging punished ? — Botli. it is the handing in school " is generally for not knowing your work, and so " on;" that shows what lie was reierriug to. Then at 2812 he says — "The senior Avould say, 'I am '• ' senior myself, and I am perfect master of " ' your body and soul.' " I do not believe any boy ever sjiid such a thing as that. At 2875 occurs the expression — " the junior who could not find " the Bible at the time." It was not the junior, it was the second election who put it there, and who was punished. The junior was not punished at all. 3638. (Lord Li/ltelton.) Was he so severely punished as is described here ? — O'Brien says not. 3639. {Lord Clarendon.) O'Brien was the pun- isher ? — Yes. I have not the least objection to ask the boy who was punished. I do not hajipen to have done it, because, when I questioned him, I did not know about this point. 3640. I think he told us who it was ?— I know who it was. 3641. The, punisher or th O'Brien was the punisher. 3642. {Mr. Thompson.) He is a very powerful boy ? — He is, but the implement Avas not formidable. 3643. What was it ? — A little cane. The thing was a cane about as thick as my fourth finger, and it was partly l)roken before it was used for this. 3644. (Mr. Ticislcton.) Do you think it was a proper subject for punishment ? — I do. 364.5. {Lord T^yttelton.) Do you think it involved a moral fault on tlie part of the boy ? — Yes. If there was no book he ought to have left no book, and he would have had an imposition and there would have been an end of the matter. He had no business to put a wrong book. 3646. {Mr. Vauglmn.) It w.as a deceit put on the master ? — It was a little deceit, and he had no right whatever to expect INIr. Ingram always to have his book. He might come in without his book. 3647. It was virtually saying to the master, there is the book for you ? — Undoubtedly. It was a little piece of dishonesty, and I think it ought to have been punished. I feel he deserved some punishment. 3648. You think it was right to punish it because it was a deception ? — Yes. If there had been no book there would have been no question of the kind at all. Mr. Ingram, probably, would have noticed it, and might have given him an imposition. 3649. (Lord Clarendon.) He says: "He fell on " to a bureau, and staggered out of the room ?" — I am told, in the first place, that it was not near a bureau. 3650. Was there a bui-eau in the room ? — There are three bureaus in the room. 3651. Was the room very large ? — Yes. 3652. What sized room ? — It is the upper election room ; a large place. However it would make no difference if he happened to be near a bureau, but as a matter of fact he was r.ot. That is simply hear- say evidence. 3653. Mr. Meyrick's is only hearsay evidence ? — O'Brien told me what I tell you. Then Lord Clarendon asks, " Some of the masters were in college themselves ? " — Some of them, there is only one though, I think, of " the present set, Mr. Ingram." i\Ir. Andrews also was formerly on the foundation. Then in 2895 he talks of a senior wanting his bed warmed. That is a thing unheard of. (Sir S. Xorthcote.) He did not positively say they did warm the beds, but he implied that they might be called on to do so. 3654. (Lord Devon.) It is asked, " It is never " done at Westminster now ? " And he says " No, I " think not, at least if a senior wanted his bed " warmed," and so on ? — Yes ; it is a thing uu- • heard of. {3Jr. Thompson.) He says you are liable to if . {Mr. Scolt.) Then he is asked " Of these five " or six canings how many should you suppose " came from the neglect of offices which ought to be " done by servants ? " It is not the case. The WEST- MINSTEB, Rev. C. B. Scott. canings are for different things. It is the punishment by the second election which was for the neglect of duties that should be done by servants. 3655. (Lord Clarendon.) At 2913 there is a question of Sir Stafford Northcote, to which the answer is " They must change the whole thing if they 14 March ISfi-i " attempt anything of the sort. There must be an " entire revolution in tlie thing, because they could " not stop one thing alone ; the senior boys would " not stand that at all"? — That seems to me decided nonsense. 3656. Then the masters are able to put down every- thing they think reprehensible ? — To put down any serious evil, but not of course to check every trifle. 3657. Why ? — Because they cannot always be present. (T^ord Clarendon.) Then the answer that was given is not decided nonsense. 3658. {Sir S. Northcote.) My question had re- ference to one particular point ? — He says " There " must be an entire revolution in the thing, because " they could not stop one thing alone." It is just the question of whether a master can be there. If he cannot be there at four or five o'clock in the morning it is very difficult to prevent boys being called at that time. 3659. I should like to put to you the same question that I put to Mr. Meyrick. Do you think, if the masters were so minded, they could put down such a custom as making the boys get up at three or four o'clock to call the others ? — I think it is difficult to interfere with the calling. 3660. {Lord Devon.) Except by the introduction of a servant ? — Yes, to provide the opportunity for boys who wished to work then doing so. He says they could not stop one thing alone. It depends entirely on what the thing was. 3661. {3Ir. Thompson.) I suppose you would ad- mit that the senior boys have a considerable power of resisting improvement ? — Yes. 3662. And a perfect willingness to exercise it? — That might happen, no doubt. {Lord Clarendon.) In answer to the next ques- tion of Mr. Vaughan's he says very neaily what you have been saying. He says, " I do not know " whether it could be carried out. If it were it " would be frequently broken through by the seniors " ordering the juniors to do it again. They would " not attend to it much." That is exactly what you say. If there was no master there to superintend, the regulation would be broken. 3663. {Lord Lyttelton.) It depends on the boys' feelings ? — A good deal. 3664. {Mr. Thompson.) There is a proviso in the next answer, " Yes, of course they could, unless the " masters were in do-s\niright earnest, and proper steps " taken to enforce their orders." What he meant by proper steps I do not know. Policemen, perhaps ? — What would be meant would be to expel a boy for disobedience to their orders. 3665. {Sir S. Northcote.) Do you see any difficulty in taking such a course as expelling a boy ? — Yes, when the thing done was not in itself a moral offence. 3666. Should you feel yourself at liberty to act on your owm judgment in expelling a boy in case of his breaking your orders, or should you be subject to in- terference from any other authority ? — I should be responsible to the Dean in the case of Queen's scholars. 3667. (A Commissioner.) In conversation you ex- pressed an opinion as to the Dean's not allowing it ? — Yes. 3668. (3L: Vauyhan.) When you alluded to the Dean's not allowing it, did you mean to say merely that any person in authority would not allow it, or that there was some peculiar reason why the Dean would not do so ? — No. I think I could not go to my superior with a complaint of that kind and ask him to take such a step as expelling a boy from college. 3669. {Mr. Twislcton.) Would not that be possible if the offence involved a violation of regulations which 3 T 3 518 I'TJBLIC SCHOOLS COifMISSION : -MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. WEST- were intended to prevent a great abuse ' — Yes, if the SriNSTER. abuse were great. ■ 3670. Would not this compulsory calling be a r Tt%' ff great abuse -which regulations would endeavour to ■ _J ' put down ? — I do not think it is so bad, or I should March 18C3. have made stricter rules about it. . 3671. {Sir S. Northcote.') Let us be clear on this point. Of course there are two questions; one is whether it is so great an abuse as some persons think it ; the other is whether, if the master thought it was such an abuse, he could practically put it down ? — If the master thought it was such an abuse he could practically put it down. 3672. How ? — I mean I should have no scruple in dealing with it. For instance, now if I were to find a second election, whoever it was, by the order of a senior, had kicked a junior, I should at once urge the Dean to send him away. 3673. But confining our attention to this calling in the morning, which is confessedly a difficult one to ■deal with, supposing that you were convinced that it was necessary that some limitation should be put upon it, that a boy should not be called, say before fivo o'clock, how could you enforce that rule ? — By watching, by my going in or Mr. Ingram going in from time to time to see that it was not transgressed. 3674. Then it would be necessary that Mr. Ingi-am or some other person should get up at that very early hour in the morning ? — Plainly. 3675. Without that you do not think it would bo possible to stop it ? — Scarcely. 3676. {Lord Devon.) Practically do you consider j-ourself as much at lilierty to carry out regulations which you may thiisk for the good of the school with regard to the college as with regard to town lx)ys ? — Practically, yes. 3677. But theoretically no ? — Theoretically no. 3678. {Lord Clare/idon.) Would it bo possible, for instance, to make such an arrangement as this, that a college servant should go in at a certain early hour in the morning, and that if he found any boys up ho should report them ? — I should not feel any confidenco that a servant would report such a thing. 3679. You say theoretioally you have not the power of doing as you please with the college, dealing with college boys the same as you would with town boys. Does the power rest with the Dean and Chapter ? The Dean. : 3680. Not the Chapter ?_No. 3681. Now with respect to these regulations, which you say you might make and which would entail, per- haps, the sending a boy away. If you ever had recourse to any such measure would there bo difficulty in settling with the Dean beforehand, certain regulations that might be made for the introduction of reforms and agreeing with him beforehand on the consequences to which the disobedience of such regulations might lead, so that you would have a perfect security that those regulations would be carried out ? — The difficulty is really not there, but whether the abuse is such as I should feel myself justified in dealing with, and could defend myself for dealing with in such a way. 3682. (-/I/a Fowi-//(a«.) Am I right in understanding the point of your answer upon that point to have been this, that the boys would fake care to put an innocent person forward in the matter so that you would have a great deal of difficulty in punishing for it ?-^ Obviously such a case might arise, 3683. {Lord Dcvo?i.) I presume when you say the Dean, you mean a Dean ; any person in the position of the Dean ?— Yes. 3684. You have no reference to any individual? No. 3683. {Mr. Vaughan.) If you had to act yourself would you find the same difficulty as you suppose the Dean would find ?— Yes. 3686. {Mr, Thompson.) I asked the question, " Do <' you think they," meaning the boys, "would be sup- ^' ported by the old Westminsters," and the answer is, " I think so, decidedly." Does that at all afiect your ppmion as to the difficulty of dealing with these 5vbuses ?— That is » delicate question, 3687. {BIr. Vaughan.) Do you think that the old Westminsters have a greater power of that kind in school questions from the fact of the school being in London, and their being near at hand, which they would lose if the school were in the counti^y ? — Certainly. As to what young Meyrick did in cricket, — because that connects itself with his games, — he j)layed in three matches during the summer. He was put into the eleven after Whitsuntide, when a large number left. The boys' verdict about him is " He was not a good field, being lazy." lu the Christchurch match, one innings, Meyrick and another boy. Short, each made 12, all the rest made very low scores. Playing with the Zingari, jMeyrick made 1 and 4, the maximum was 13 and 32. He was very low ; but in the Town Boy and Queen Scholars' match at the very end of the half, Meyrick made 16, the maximum being 18, in the first innings, so that really he made a good score at the end of his half when his constitntion was supposed to be broten. 3688. {Lord Clarendon.) Perhaps it might be satisfactory to you and useful to us if you would reca- pitulate the alterations you have made in the school with reference to these matters which have recently come to your notice, and also such reforms and such assistance in cari-ying out reforms as you would wish to have in the way of servants ? — I will endeavour to put it as briefly as I can. Of course, as it was my dut}^ I at once made regulations as soon as I had time to inquire into the matter and really ascertain the fiicts. I made regulations abolishing the system of delegating punishment to the second election, and all kicking, abolishing also fagging between eight and ten. I an;j bound to say for the senior boys that they have behaved properly in the matter as far as 1 have had to do with them, and they had a general anxiety to do what was right, I think. Then that no boy should be call moro than once in the week, and that there should be only one call in a morning, because they had two calls iu former times, which was needless. They had one boy, downstairs call, who got up early, and another got up at six for no purpose, for there was a boy up already, below stairs. Then that the supply of pens and paper by juniors to the other elections should no longer continue, and that no boy should be corporally punished for any alleged neglect of college duty, such as fires, and such matters. Then the question was what punishment could be pi'ovided. 3689. Provided for what ? — For such like negli- gences, and that I dealt with by another change. The old system was, that there should be station in college for all junior elections between nine and ten — after breakfast, and after dinner — that is the simplest form to put it. At other times station was on the playground, and a boy was required to be there iu order that you might know that he was not in mischief. Station is a technical term. Station was in college foi- the short times, after breakfast and dinner ; but the second elec- tion had by custom the right of giving juniors leave off this, and then they availed themselves of it to make the juniors do little things for them. " If yo\i do so and so " for me, you shall have leave off," which was very ob- jectionable. Therefore I said, that shall not be the case any longer, but the station in college shall go as watch goes, in rotation through the hoys, so that it may always be known who has his station in college ; and if a boy is alleged to be guilty of neglect, his second election shall have the power to punish him, by saying, " You have " station in college to-day," which really is no great grievance, but still furnishes a means of punishing. 3690. That is all you did in respect to this sort of reforms and changes ?•:=— Those are the chief points. 3691. In what manner have you communicated this to the seniors ? — I issued -written rules. 3692. And they are binding on them ? — Yes ; they make a copy of them. The captain keeps that in his book, and he gives a copy to the under master. 3693. They have been received in a spirit which in- duces you to think that this will be a permanent refoi-ffl in the school ? — Certainly ; I hope so. PUBLIC SCHOOLS COMMISSION; — MINUTES OF EVlfiENCE. 519 3G94. Will you tell us what you would like in the way of assistance, which I suppose must come froui the Dean, for the purpose of carrying out these re- forms ? — You must provide for certain necessary duties being performed. 3695. Perhajis you will say what the duties to be perlbrmed would be which 30U would transfer from the boys to servants ? — I think all such duties as attending to the fires and lighting the gas, and also, to a certain extent, the providing tea and bringing up of the tea things, — at all events, washing the tea things, — ought to be servants' work ; and that, furtlicrmore, it ought to lie a servant's duty, and not a boj-'s duty, to be what we call monitor ostii, — that is to say, on duty during school hours to see that college is not entered by improper )iersons ; and that there ought to be a person whose duty should be, during all the time that the boys are up, that is to say, from the hour of rising in the morning till bedtime at uight, to be upon the spot, with certain duties to perform. 3696. IIow many additional servants do you think would be necessary to carry out this work so trans- ferred. I think you said first a porter ? — My idea was a person like an Oxford scout. I think some place must be provided for him, because I do not think that it would be desirable to have him con- stantly coming in to and fro through the door of college. He ought to bo within the walls. 3697. Domiciled ? — Yes, domiciled during the day- time. 3698. (Lord Devon.) Would there not be a space between this school and the college doors where the present coal place is ? — The boilers and all the things arc there. There is a little room by the staircase. 3699. No, I meant the other end ? — There is a little room which Lloyd has now, but the truth is that although Lloyd is not satisfied with his salary, I do not think that his duties are by any means constant. 3700. {Lord Clarendon.) How much has he ? — 100/. a year in all. 3701. Does it rise ?— No. 3702. (Sir S, Northcote.) I should like to ask a question about one of the difficulties you have men- tioned, about the getting up in the morning. You say one diificulty is the question of the fire. Do you sup- pose it would be possible without danger to introduce gas stoves, so that the boy who got up could light his fire for himself without any trouble ? — Do you mean that it should remain lighted, so that the gas stove should be the fire ? 3703. That the gas stove should be the fire for that early hour in the morning, so as to leave the regular lighting of the great fire till the servant was able to come in, and that if a boy chose to get up before the usual hour for lighting the fire that he should light the gas stove for himself? — When I was speaking to the boys themselves that was the first thing that O'Brien suggested. Although Mr. Meyrick abuses him, he has been the one who has come most naturally forward to suggest what might be done to relieve the work of the junior. He said "Could not " there be a stove put up somewhere which we might " manage to light for ourselves ? " I never had practical experience of a gas stove. 3704. {Lord T^ijttelton.) Could not boys, if they wished to do it, both lay and light any fire they chose ; they might have the wood and coal there ? — You or I could without the slightest difficulty, but it is very difficult to get seniors to do it. Further it is fair to say that if a boy comes down into these large cold rooms, for they are very cold in the winter when the fire is not lighted, and has to begin by laying the fire, he is very likely to get so chilled before the fire burns up that he would not practically get up to work. 3705. {Sir S. Northcote.) Do you think that does not apply to a junior ? — The junior has a good deal to do, which keeps him moving about for some time, and his turn does not come daily, only at intervals. 3706. {Lord Clarendon.) And yet you say between whiles, cold and working too, you think he would read ? — I only think so because he has. liev. C. B. Scott. 3707. Is he not a rare bird that does so ? — No ; of WEST- tlie elder ones decidedly not. Here is positive evidence MINSTER, that, excepting in cases where there was no comparison in ability, the juniors have been above the liberty boy. 3708. {Mr. Twislelon.) Can you explain that fact ? There is a little honourable emulation, and the head 14 March isr,3. boy may be employed with his duties as prompter for the play. 3709. {Mr. Vaughan.) They like to take honour- able revenge ? — Yes. . 3710. (Mr. Thompson.') While the liberty boy rests on his oars ?— Yes, and they are put on their mettle. 3711. {Sir S. Northcote.) Or is there something in the peculiar preparation for challenges which may a little throw a boy out of his regular work ? — There is something in that too. 3712. And it may be that a boy has particularly devoted himself to that particular work of preparing for the challenge and has fallen behind in the class-work ? — I have taken the return at Christmas, because that was the time when Meyrick left : and also tha challenge had been over sometime, so that I think il;^ is mainly for the other reasons which I have mentioned. 3713. There is another point which was mentioned in O'Brien's evidence which I should like to have your opinion upon. In answer 3017 he mentions a certain punishment as having been used by the under elections towards the boys whom they were helping to get into College, and he goes on to say that the boys who were standing for College had helps, who were paid if they succeeded in getting their boys in, but not otherwise. Do you think that that is a good system, or one that leads to abuse ? — This was all gone into when I was examined when you were unable to attend. I do not think it does lead to abuse. It seemed to me a very liard case that a parent who got nothing should be required to pay ; and, as a matter of fact, the work had been much harder with the upper boys in the com- petition than with the lower boys, so that it was fan- that there should be some remuneration in the one case and not in the other, but I went on the principle of " no cure no pa3\" 3714. {Mr. Twislelon.) You looked to results? — Yes. 3715. {Sir S. Northcote.) I do not want to put the question generally as to the system, but whether you think it does lead to much bullying on the part of the eldest boys ? — In no kind of manner. 3716. {3Ir. Thompson.) O'Brien said the help would " lick " a boy if he was not attentive ? — If he did not do his duty he would punish him, and experience would go to show that punishment may sometimes be judiciously resorted to. 3717. (i/r. Vaughan.) You do not think they try to win the race often by the spur ? — No ; the spur of emulation is very strong with boys. 371 8. I meant the punishing spur ? — No ; it was only where a boy was culpably negligent that they would dream of doing that. I did not know they did it. 3719. (Mr. Twiskton.) With respect to the servants which you propose, have you made any estimate of the expense which they would involve ? — I have thought that an additional man, an additional scout, was required, and I suppose for duties of that kind since wages, board, and lodging would have to be paid, it would be an expense of some lOOZ. a year, 3720. Altogether ? — Yes. 3721. For both ? — Yes ; that is supposing you have ft, responsible person like Lloyd on duty in addition. 3722. Have you communicated with the Dean on the subject ? — No ; I trusted very much to what the Commission might do to help me, because it would involve more money, and that is a difiiculty. 3723. In fact, as far as the servants are concerned, these evils might be remedied by the expenditure of an additional sum, say under lOOZ. a yeai- ?— I think they might. 3724. (Lord Devon.) Is it not the fact that how- ever convinced the Chapter may be of the desirableness of incurring this additional expenditure for the pur- poses to which you refer, as matters stand now it will ^ 3T4 620 PtTBLIC SCHOOLS COMMISSION: — MTXUTKS OF EVIDENCEr ,.„„™ lie necessary for thorn to obtain the assent of the WIN'STEK. Ecclesiastical Couiuiisslon ? — Yc,s, but I may say at ' " the same time that wlieii tlioy agreed to propose some- ■Kcy. thinn- to tlic Ecdcsiastical Commission in reference to C.B. Scott tjje tuition fees, not only was no objection made, but M^J^ritTlses Lord Cliichester told me tliat it was granted without ' the smallest doubt or hesitation. 3725. (Lord Clarendon.) I do not see why the Chapter should lie so parsimonious, as it does not come cut ot their pockets ? — It does to some extent. 3726. {3Ir. Vaiighan.) Then tho Ecclesiastical Commissl.ou in fact are more willing to give out of the pockets of the elder Canons than the elder Canons are to osk that the money should be given out of their o^vn pockets ? — It comes out of the general fund. 3727. {Lord Devon.) I wish to ask you these two questions, I do not quite recollect wdiether they have been asked before. Two suggestions were made by the committee of old Westminsters with reference to Little Dean's Yard, oue is that on the termination of the lease of No. 18, Great Dean's Yard ?— There is no lease. 3728. That at as early a jieriod as practicable that house might be either entirely removed or so much of it only loft as would provide sutRcient space for tho free circulation of air over it. Do you attach impor- tance to that P^Very gi-eat importance. 3729. What would you do with the site then gained by the removal of back offices on a great part of tho site of the houses ? — ^I certainly should wish to make of tlie site of that house as it stands two fives courts on the one side, and out of the tower, which is an architectural feature that Mr. Scott, the architect, •>vould be very unwilling to sacrifice, I should like to make a school library, a boy's library. 3730. How would you obtain access to that ? — B}' a corkscrew staircase, and there would be communication opened into it with the utmost facility from the landing in my house which would provide for constant supervision, and prevent its being used for smoking, or any such purpose. 3731. What is it used for at present ?^^It is part of the otlier house, 3732. Has it ever occurred to you that it would be desirable for tho interests of the homo boarders to have, as they have now at Charterhouse, a room where they flight spend the time between schools? — AVehave that. 3733. Where is that ? — In the new house. 3734. Then there is one other question, which is this. Another suggestion has beou made with refer- ence to Little Dean's Yard, namely that it would be desirable to make an opening between the college garden and Little Dean's Yard, so as to promote the free cir-! eulation of air on that side ; would you think that advisable ? — If an ndditioual fives court were provided. 3735. {Mr. Thompson.) Kot for the sake of air ? — For the sake of air, yes; but I feel tliat the loss of the fives court would be so great that I almost question whether air would compejisate for it. 3736. {Lord Devon.) Would it interfere with it ? — It would altogether destvoy one of our only two fives courts. 3737. To go through that ooal shed ?.^-It is against that coal shed we play. 3738. {3Ir. Thompson.) It would open to the cast, and that was alleged as an objection by one of the witnesses ? — I do not think it should be so low as that a person walking there could look into the garden, but I think if it w-ere about six feet high with a railing, so as to allow a current of air, it would conduce to health certainly. To the removal of the house I do attach the very greatest importance, because our main ven- tilation comes from that side, and if the scheme which now has been recommended to Parliament, for clearing ^way Abingdon .Street, were carried, out the Chapter would gain some admirable sites on that side, and could build another Canons' house with perfect facility. 3739. Without interfering with the Dean's stables, r^d the other stables to the south-west ? — Yes, that was lay scl\eine. 3740. Now" as to the use of College Garden by tho boys, what is your view upon that ? — They might use it on Sundays ; walking there on Sundays. I think it would be a gain. It is very little used. It is used by children to some extent, and by the Canons' fami- lies for croquet and such things. 3741. Do you think the advantage that would result to the school from using it on Sunday afternoons would more than compensate any inconvenience which might be sustained by the families of those who at present use it, and who might absent themselves from it if it were so used ? — The boys could not be admitted to it without making it a public promenade, because if the door l>e left open other people will walk in. There are always people wandering about the cloisters. I do not see, unless you give some immediate communication, how you can prevent its being entirely public. That would expose the houses there to robbeiy. 3742. {Mr. Ticislelon.) Do you entertain any ob- jection to tho presence of home boarders in the school ? — We could not get on without them. 3743. You would not object to the number being increased ? — No, I should increase it if I could. 3744. If there were reasonable regulations by which the number could be increased you would not object ? — No, clearly. Let me say at once, the question of increasing home boarders has always seemed to mo mainly to turn upon this ; can you, without sacrificing a boy's health and welfare, give what parents want : tlie mere convenience of their coming to you, being with you for a fixed time, and then going home ? I have always said I did not hold that that is the idea of education. I think boys ought to have ]ilay hours, and that involves broken school limes, and boys being late in returning home in the winter months ; that is a great objection and a real objection, and it is that which prevents liorae boarders from coming to ns. 3745. We had evidence from a gentleman who had groat experience of schools in London, which went to tills point, that in order to have many home boarders you must have the schools begin as late as nine in the morning ? — Yes. 3746. Do you see »ny insuperable objection ? — We have the nine o'clock hour. 3747. Do not you begin at eight ? — Our homo hoarders, all wlio choose, come at nine, and a certain proportion do come at nine. 3748. The regular school work begins at eight ac- cording to the returns ? — Yes, but those who come at nine do the same work. 3749. But according to the returns the school begins at eight ?■ — It used to do so for all. 3750. {3h: Thompson.) There are a small number who do tliat ? — .A good many in the winter. 3751. {Mr. Twisleton.) You consider no difficulty really does arise from the hour at which the school begins ?-— No, but I do consider difficulty arises from the hour at which the school ends. 3752. (Mr. Thompson.) Which is what ?— Half- past five in the winter. 3753. {Mr. Twisleton.) That is the real impedi- ment to the increase of the home boarders ? — Yes, and we cannot remove it without sacrificing the mid- day time for recreation. 3754. {L^ord Devon.) Did you find the continuance of the school till half-past five of use ? — Yes. 3755. In my time it used to end at four or half- past four. Then you go in at half-past two ?^-No ; half-past three. 3756. {Mr. Twisleton.') Are you aware whether the hour of ending has always been as late as half- past five ?^- Always, I think, for the last 18 or 19 years at least. 3757. Are you aware the school hours used to end at either four or half-past four ? — In old times, I have always been told, they used to end when it got dusk. 3758. But I presume you have no doubt that if the school did end earlier, the number of home boarders would be materially increased ? — ^Probably. PUBLIC SCHOOLS COMMISSTON : — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 521 Letter from the Rev. H. M. Ixgu.vm, Second Master of Westminster School, to the E.\ul, of Clarendon. St. Peter's College, Westminster, My Lord, 18th March 18(i3. I HAVE received a copy of certain printed e\idence of Mr. Meyrick and his son, given before the Public Schools Commissioners, and relating to Westminster School, and I beg respectfully to call the attention of the Commissioners to the following remarks concerning that evidence. Mr. Meyriek has laid a charge against the authorities of the College that the internal management of it is entirely in the hands of the boys. He asserts (2-ll/()) that " the boys ■' are perfectly irresponsible ; " that a master standing by '.vould have no power to prevent or check any of those enor- mities which he supposes to be rife in College ; and he further intimates that the whole system of fagging is so absolute that if any of the ni:-istcrs were to order a boy to do any- thing, the boy would only dare to obey if such order did not infringe njion the rules of fagging. I deny the truth of Mr. Meyrick's charge. It is true that fagging is allowed by the masters, and has been allowed in College from time immemorial ; but it is not true that either brutal or degrading punishments are allowed or winked at, nor are the masters without the power of sui)erseding all rules of fagging, nor of sending for a boy at any moment ; and a refusal to obey a master's order under any circimistances would be considered and punished as an act of gross disobedience, and any monitor or senior attempting to usur]) ])aramount power over the boys would be liable to the se\-erest ])unishment. Mr. Meyrick has further asserted that there is not a single moment from JanuiU'y 1st to December 31st in any year when a junior or fag in College is at leisure to do his school duties, or even can sit down to wi'ite a letter home. Now leaving out of the question the sch-jol holida3's, and the weekly leave on Saturday and Sundaj', I reply that the juniors [iractically have without interru])tion 2/ or 28 hours in eveiy week when they are in school and before the master. Moreover they have times and oppor- tunities out of school when, notwithstanding the fagging, they may, if they choose, learn their lessons, especially from S to 10 p. m. every evening, during which time it is a gross exaggeration to say that there is frequent and constant interruption from the seniors. Interruptions there may be sometimes, but as a rule a junior has a fair opportunity, if he chooses to use it, of learning his lessons out of school. In making these remarks I wish it to be distinctly understood that I am not defending every part of the system y my recommendation, being near the college garden. The Westminster Bridge Commissioners sold their property to pay for the bridge, and I recommended the Dean and Chapter to purchase it. The whole of Tothill Fields belongs to them. • 3770. All Vincent Square and the houses on all sides of it ? — Yes, there is a very large extent of pro- perty there indeed. They have recently acquired by my recommendation the freehold of the Westminster Palace Hotel, and the freehold of these very houses in one of which we arc now sitting. 3771. {Lord Li/ftelfon.) The freehold of the build- ing of the Hotel ' — Yes. 3772. {Lord Devon.) And both sides here ? — No, only this side. I recommended them to invest their money in that, and the Viee-Chancellor permitted it to be done, and it is now before the conveyancing counsel. 3773. You recommended that as an investment ? — Yes. 3774. Now, as regards the ground which lies be- tween Tothill Fields and Great Dean's Yard, do those streets belong to the Dean and Chapter ? — No ; the Dean and Chapter have property ni College Street and Wood Street, and just in that immediate vicinity. 3775. But not in Dean Street ? — Very little in Dean Street. 3776. In Peter Street have they any ? — None iu Peter Street. 3777. It is not a continuous property from Great Dean's Yard to Vincent Square ? — No ; Lord Romney has considerable property intervening. 3778. You recollect, no doubt, that, when we saw you iu the Jerusalem Chamber, the question of the possible moving of the school to another site was under consideration, and questions were addressed to you Avith reference to the possibility of realizing a sufficient sum by the sale of certain portions of the property, with special reference to the Vincent Square property. Is there no portion of that pro- perty which could be sold Avithout injury to the interests of the Dean and Chapter, supposing it were desirable for other purposes to make provision for the moving of the school ? — The question that was imt to me at the committee of which you speak, was whether the area of Vincent Square, which is the playground now of the scholars, could be built over, whether that could be sold, and I said that it could no doubt by the aid of an Act of Parliament be sold and built on ; but I said then, and I say still, that that would be a very difficult Act to obtain, because I think it would be a breach of faith to all the lessees, not only of property suri'ounding Vincent Square, but in all the streets leading into and out of it. They have taken those leases on the faith of a great open .space being left there of about 10 acres, and to build over it I think would be a great detriment to the rci7GS-3777. Vincent Square might doubtless be built upon under the authority of an Act of Parliament, but it \\ould be a difiicult Act to obtain because it would be a breach of faitli on the part of the Dean and Chapter to all the lessees of pro- perty about the square, who liad taken sites on the faith of a spr.ce of 10 acres being left uncovered ; 3778-3785. If sold it would probably realize 20,000/. after compensation to the lessees and occupiers ; 378G-3801. Or with the buildings 30,000/. ; 3S0S, 3809. There would be no customer for the School and Masters' houses but the Government, who might use the buildings as a record office; S,CO0^ to 10,000/. is all that could be realized for it; 3802-3804. Further details as to the property near tlie school ; 3805-3820. Probable cost of a new school and site near the Thames, on a soil of gravel, and within a limited distance of London, estimated by him years bark at from 40,000/. to 50,000/., exclusive of boarding Iiouscs ; 3821- 3831. Should Mr. Scott's scheme for contemplated improve- ments near the Victoria Tower be carried out, the present site of Westminster School would t)c much improved as regards ventihuion and picturesque efTect ; 3832-3844. Asked liis opinion as to removing or retaining tlio present school, the witness replies, his own boys have done exceedingly well atWef^t- minster ; has no reason to doubt that tlie position is healthy ; has lived in Westminster all his lUe ; ibe School is built on gravel ; 3845-3587. As to pulling down the houses between the two Deans' yards, is of opinion that there nn'glit be too much air on the site ; S858-38C6. INGRAM, Ukv. H. M., page 449. Is Under IMnster of Westminster School ; has the Under School under his charge, and also the special charge of the Foundation boys out of school ; 15G5-15CS. The Under School comprises the lower forms to the under and upper third ; I5G9-I572. His house communicates witli the College, and be is able to bear noises in the school, except at the further end ; times of visiting the school ; bcd-ltme, gas, candles allowed on special occasions after the gas has been extinguished ; practice in case of illness in the College ; I573-15S7. Was in the College himself for four years up to 1R43 ; recent improve- ments in the establisbment, such as llie addition of a new set of roome:, and the studies, the latter be would like to see extended but not to the lower boys ; suggests further provision of tables, furniture, tS.e.; 15S8-1G11. Thinks the meals generally ade- quate in quantity and good in quality ; but the meat left at dinner is not, since a reduction made since Christmas, sufficient to give a meat supper throughout the College, and a greater number than formerly of the junior boys do not get meat twice a day ; rcprcsuntations on this point have been made by the captains; 1612-1629. The boys are not allowed to bring in meat, and he never beard of their doing so, but occasionally they go to shops, though not to so great an extent as formerly ; ■when he first entered on his office many of the boys were in the habit of going out to get their dinners when there was boiled beef in hall ; that dinner was changed, and the attendance of the boys has since been more regular ; they have beef four times and mutton three times a week; 1641-164S. Tlie beer is of good quality ; no one has extra quality except through ibe matron of the sick room ; 1649-1651. Details as to dinner and supper ; 1 652-1 G69. Wishes that the College garden could be opened, at least partially, to the College, for instance, on Sundays ; 1630-1G35. Thinks it would be advantageous to the School to have a chapel, not for the sake of superseding the service at the Abbey, but for occasional services, and to give the masters freer opportunities of addressing the boys ; is not in favour of very frequent addresses, but thinks there ought to be freedom of addressing them from the pulpit wlitnevcr a necessity occurs, and at other special times and seasons besides the Saints' days ; 1636-16^0. Approves the present dormitoiy arrange- ments, both in a sanitary and moral point of view ; 1670-1672. The understanding between the College boys and the town boys is very good, aiul certainly better than it was iu his own Ingram, Rev. H. M. — coiii. school davs ; they associate freely In their games ; there is no socid distinction of any kind; 1673, 1674. There are great facilities for exercise ; 1675. Letter from the Kev. H. M. INGRAM (Second Master of West- minster), impugning various points in the evidence of the Meyricks, fatlier and son, and vindicating the system of fagging as existing in the College, page 521. LIDDELL, Veuy Rev. HENRY GEORGE, D.D., Dean of Christ Ciiuuch, page 393. Was Head Master of Westminster School for nine years up to August 1855 ; 1-3. Tlie statutes were carried out to areason- able extent ; 4 and 52 et scq. 1 he number of boys has been decreasing during the last 40 years, and under four Head Masters; the place is less open than formerly; has heard bis father speak of shooting snipe in IJattersta tields ; attributes the decline of the school to increased attention paid by parents to sanitary matters; 5-9. Connexion of the school with great families has gradually ceased, and sons of poorer men been sub- stituted; cllect of decline on Christ Church has been most marked; in former days West minster boys supplied Christ Church with some of tlie best men on the students' list, almost all the tutors were Westminsters, but for many years past tins has almost ceased, and there are now no We':tminster tutors at all, although the Vvestminster studentships are much more valuable than otlier studentships, being in fact as high as from 150/. to 170/. a year each ; 10-14. Westminster boys are examined before Whit- suntide for student:5hips and scholarships, by three examiner* appointed by the Master of Trinity, tlic JJcan of Christ Church, and the Deau of Westminster, and afterwards by tho^e func- tionaries themselves, and then arranged in order of merit, when the boys who stand first on the list have the option of going to Trinity or Christ Church ; the examination is of a severe character, and the boys who pass it are admitted ; but from the small number few good boys are obtained, and Christ Church is consequently prejudiced ; 15-21. The remedy would be to increase tlie number of scholars, and this could only be done by removing the School to a better situation ; the only otlur alternative would be to make it a large day school some- thing like King's College School, but this would involve a ribk of its entirely cta»;ing to be a public school in tlie common sense of the uord ; 22-24 and 49-51. The objections to such re- moval are mainly sentimental, but they prevail to a considerable extent; 25-31. Thinks pecuniary objection to the removal not insurmonnlahle ; 32-34. Continuance of the connexion of the School uith ibe Chapter of Westminster, a matter for con- sideration; 35-37, Ihinks the authorities of Christ Church would concur in the removal of the school, and that the pro- perty on the Foundation would, if sohl, provide funds adequate for a new school and site ; knows that certain inhabitants of Westminster object to the Vincent Square play-ground being built upon, but if they want the square as lungs for Westmin- ster they ought to pay for it ; 38-48. Believes that the portions of the statutes not adhered to are chiefly those connected with ancient forms, and unsuited to modern habits ; 52, 53. The statutes De Stipendiis; formerly the schoolmaster received a larger sum than the prebendaries ; but the division annmg the latter of the surplus revenues leversed these proportions ; the master's income remains at the low sum originally named whilst the incomes of the prebendaries gradually increased to a large sum ; the Under Master's position resembles that of the Head Master ; the scholars also, but to a less extent, since the scholars were fed by the Foundation, and the food has been more expensive than formerly ; 54-73. Thinks it was oiiglnally intended that the education of the Queen's scholars should be gratuitous, and the stipends cover it ; but from an account kept by a boy of his expenses in the School (preserved iu the ** Alumni Westmonasterienses"), the practice of paying fees to the two masters prevaiKd as early as Busby's time, and the fees have gridnally increased up to 17 guineas a year ; 74-7S. In 1846 thc-re was, to some extent, a restoration of the statutable privilege of the boys by the abolition of the cliarge of 30/. a year for breakfasts in the boarding houses, and the only remain- ing exception to the entire restoration is the continued charge of 17 guineas for tuition fees ; 79-84. Revenues now under control of the Ecclesiastical Commissioners ; 87-91. The present Chapter have dealt liberally with the scholars ; S5-87. Number of Foundation scholars is 40 ; the number has never been Increased ; from 1841 to 1847 there were less than the statutable number, because there were not in the School boys of a year's standing as candidates to supply their place ; the sub- ject pursued ; 92-100. Not having tlie statutes he did not inquire whether the parents of boys admitted to the Foundation were in want of assistance, but followed the custom of his predecessor ; 101-103. Visitation of the School and examina- tion of the boys ; " challenge " and " helps " explained ; opinions PUBLIC SCHOOLS COMMISSION; — ANALYSIS OF EVIDENCE. 527 LiDDELL. Very Rev. Mexiit George, D.D. — cont. as to the effect; 104-126 aiul 133-14'2. The Westminsters who go to Oxford work very liartl and are extremely well-con- ducted, but few of tliem are of ability to gain the liigliest aca- Jemicid honours ; does not liiink this could be remedied hy internal reform; the prizes are quite sufficient; l'J7, 128. Is unable to say whether tlie Charterhouse school distinguislies itself more or less than Westminster ; I29-1:VJ. A system of private tuition, akin to that at Kton, formerly existed at West- minster ; he abolished it ; gives his reasons for doing so; wlicn he got to Christ Church he found himself, as a Charterhouse man and not having had the assistance of a private tutor, able to ansver questions in grammar better than most of tlie mon in the lecture; 1-13-167. No boarding houses are kept at Westminster except by the masters, hut the benefits of the moral superintendence of the boys are obtained as fullv as under the private tutors at Eton or Harrow ; none of the boarding masters had more than 30 scholars, most of them had less ; 168—172. Thinks it migiit be desirable that boys intended for the army should receive particular instruction at school in- stead of being t.iken away and sent to special training establish- ments, if t'ne examiners for the army would name the subjects to which the boys should devote thL-ir attention ; the boys who obtained the highest marks at Woolwicii, at the last examina- tion, were from Cheltenham, where tliere is a special department devoted to such subjects; 173-184. When Head Master ;it Westminster he introduced a special service in the Abbey for the boys, at 8 o'clock in the morning, on the tirst Sunday in the moiuh ; thinks it desirable for the master to have an oppor- tunity of adtlressing the boys specially ; and is not sme that addresses at intervals do not ] produce more impression than addresses ilulivered every Siuiday ; 1 S5-1 89. Qualilicatioiis for matriculation at Ciirist Church are not very high ; they consist of a knowledge of portions of one Greek and one Latin book, Greek and Latin graniinar, the tolerable writing of Latin prose, a knowledge of arithmetic, to which he would like to add two books of KucHd. {Lord CUiremlon. You might make out a stifl' examination from that.) Without making it stiff tliere are a great many who cannot pass; last \^■cek he rejected nearly half of those who oflered themselves; speaking generally the best prepared boys come from the smaller and Ic-s fashionable schools ; the large majority of the average boys from the great public schools are from Kton, where he thinks the temptations to idleness are greater than in other schools, and this he supposes is the reason of the Eton boys being not so well prepared ; 190-217 and 241— 255. The average scholar- ship of the undergraduates oi the University has of late im- proved ; though there may be a sliiiht falling off in Latin, tl:e Greek is better, and education, on the whole, better ; 218-22:'; and 251. Greek might be advantageously somewhat deferred ; 224-223. And the learning of Latin and French be taken together; 229. 230. Pliysical science and junior student- ships ; 231-240. The present 5.tate of Westminster is good, except in point of numbers ; greatly desires a larger number to choose from ; 255. LUPTON, Rev. JAMES. M.A., page 444. Mr. JAMES TURLE examined with him. Has been minor canon of Westminster 33 years. {Mr. Turk': — Has been Abbey organist 31 years). Does not know whether the educatinn of the choristers has ever deterio- rated, but has always considered th.it the Dean and Cliapter are responsible for the education and bringing up of the choristers, and believes that by tlie statutes they are considered as part and parcel of the College establishment ; at page 92 of the statutes it is provided that they are to be taught by the master of the choristers until they are found fit to be admitted * into tile S.-hool ; after they have been taught the eight parts of speech iheynre tobe admitted into the grammar school and taught two hours a day hy the master ; the master of the choristers is to teich them not only music but grammar; the statute; framed in the lime of Queen Elizabeth contcinplate that the choristers were to go to College and that ihey and the sons of the tenants were, ceEferis paribtf, to be preferred, both as to becoming King's or Queen's scholars, and going to the Uni- versity ; 1393-1395. Was himself a chorister at York ; went to the grammar school there and asked leave to learn Latin when he was 14; this was granted, he learned Latin and Greek under IMr. Grayson ; he worked very hard, and thi^ was reported to Dean Markhum, who asked what he w.TUtcd to be, and on being told tliat he would like to become a cK'rgymin, made provision for his going to Christ Church ; at the age of 20 he went, and after matriculation was examined in Greek by the present Bishop of St. A^apli ; succeeded in being placed in the second class mathematics ; 1395-1410. Does not think the condition of the Westminster choristers has deteriorated in his time ; they were formerly granted a free education in West- minster schoof, and Mr. Turlc sent his three boys there. (Mr. Turle : — In 184S a school was established by Dean Buckhnd, for the choristers, somewhat on the national school system, where the present master, one of the sacrists and master, different from a master of a grammar scliool, leaches the boys their own language, with writing, arithmetic, and the Latin grammar ; the choristers were then excluded from the grammar school by a regular order of the Dean and Chapter ; this has altered the character of the class of boys sent as choristers ; the parents were dissatisfied with the new education and wished LupTON, Rev. James, M.A.—coni. to avail themselves of Westminster school, but were not allowed to do so ; his own sons being in the great school before the choristers* school was established were allowed to remain ; many of the choristers feeling a difficulty in filling up their time between the morning service at 10, and the evening service at 3, would frequently be idling their time about the street, and the new school was established for ihem by the Dean and Chapter from a very good motive; H14-1445. Thinks that if Westminster school was too inconvenient, and certainly the service of the church interfered a good deal with school hours, a clergyman, a man of classical attainments, ought to have been appointed to superintend their education as had been done at St, Paul's ; 14-1(;. No apprenticeship fee or superannuation allowance was provided for the boys when they lost their voices; they were meridy discharged from the choir and left to shift for themselves; 1447-1449. Before 1848, those of the choristers who did not go to Westminster school went where they could, perhaps to evening school ; he taught them nothing but music, and that was for an hour a day in addition to the Cathedral services ; they were admitted by him, the selection being neces- sarily from the boys with voices fit for the office; they were generally the sons of tradesmen, clerks, and people engaged in commercial houses, above tlie class of mechanics, and in former times he had had sons of men with incomes of from 400/. to COO/, a year; 1450-1460, and 1494-I49G. A sort of com- mercial education, something above the national system was what the parents would wish, together with some kind of pro- vision when the voice falls, such as an apprenticeship ; bis own desire is that they should have a classical education as was the case at Magdalen and New Colleges Oxford, where they had also the prospect of schohnsliips in the University ; he would return to the old system of admitting them to the great school, and make their attendance compulsory ; 1461- 1466. {Mr. Lupion : — By the statutes they are required to be in the great school two hours at the least. It was contemplated that the choristers should be resident, and have their meals, and wear the same dress as the scholars ; 1467-1476. (Mr. Turlc: — At present tliey have to pay for their surplices and washing, and they have an allowance of the Easter guinea; they do r.ot pay for the school ; witness holds the office described in ihc sta'.utes as ^nagister chorislariim, but his duty is to teacli them singing and the rudiments of music ; 1477- 1491. Has always been an advocate for the choristers going to tiie great school ; the parents rarely acceded to his wish, and their attendance at that school became a nullity ; believes only five ever did attend ; but if it were generally known that the choristers would he educated in Westminster Sl4ioo1, he believes that professional men would only be too glad to send their sons to the choir in order to obtain a grod classical educa- tion ; did not wish his own sons wlio were choristers at the time of admission to the sdiool to go to a University, but he remembers one of the choristers taking a degree at Camhrldo-c, and afterwards becoming organist of Trinity College ; 1492— 1506. His sons partook of all the advantages of education which the S'jliool conferred; their attendance at tlie Abbey scaicely interfered wiili their scliool dulies, though it miglit with their ]ilay ; 1507-1517. The subject pursued and opinions reiterated : 1518-1554. Teaches the Westminster hoys music, not officially as organist of Westminster Abbey, but when he could get a sufficient number to forma class; thinks he has not liad a class for 12 montiis ; has no class now; teaches singing only, with the common rudiments of music, not the theory of music, and consequently not the construction of chords; 1555-1564. Corrections of evidence contained in a letter, page 449. MARSHALL, Rev. JAMES, M.A., page 452. Has been Senior Assistant Alaster of We:;lminster School for 16 years, ami has been In charge of his present house nearly all that time ; 1676-1679. Explains liis i)racf.ice, as master of a boarding house, in reference to the lessons of his pupils ; when the younger boys are assembled after tea, between 8 and 9 in the hall, iie goes in and assists any new boy who finds a diffi- culty in understanding his work; he lias now .-i bov from Mexico to whom he is obliged to give attention in the very elementary parts of grammar ; to anoth'jr deficient in Euclid he would give a little help ; from 9 to 10 lie looks through the exercises of t(,c boys in his form ; and if he rinds a mistake indicates withm a certain limit where the boy can discover it ; 1682-1686. Thinks the system of private study could be advantageously introduced, or re-introduced, into Westminster, especially in the Sixth Form; 1687-1680. Ordinarily 5^ lours is the time occupied in school in a day ; that is a long strain, but it is difficult to arrange otherwise ; in other schools a great portion of work is prepared out of school, and the bovs go into school to say what they have learned ; but he is not prepared to express a preference to that system over that in use at West- minster; dot's not think that a master's time would necessarily be employed with more effect in pujiil room where boys are not classed, than in sthcol where they are ; 169I-I694. At present there are seven masters at Westminster, not including the arithmetical masters; 1695, 1696. The mathematical master assists the i'rench master, who himself gives 2 hours a week to each form. 8 in a'l, 1697-1700. Is not satisfied with the studies at Westminster school as regards composition ; the demand for definite knowledge at examinations is so great 3U4 WEST- MINSTER, 528 PUBLIC SCHOOLS COMMISSION: — ANALYSIS OF EVIDENCE. WEST- Marshall, Rev. James, U.A.—cont. u • j . j MINSTER that tl.ere is a constant tendency to encroach on the time devoted to composition ; still tlie scholarsliii. at the school has been n-reatly improved during the last 16 years, and when the boys Remove to the Sixth Form they are in a condition to fit them to become good scliolars, and generally are well-grounded in Greek syntax ; when he fir^t joined the school it was an idle place now it is much more diligent ; if the distinctions obtained in the University by Westminsters are not more numerous than thev were 16 years back, it may he ac- counted for l.y improvements elsewhere and by the foun- dation of additional schools; 1701-1717, and 1725-1731. Has heard from the Head Master that the less industrious boys prevent the rest from doing their work in the form ; but has not witnessed it in his own part of the school, the remove next to tiie Sixth Form ; ste|is have been taken to remedy the evil; 1718-1725. The recently restored scholar- ship exhibitions for Wales and the diocese of Lincoln are gained liy perfectly open competition ; very good boys compete, and the prize is generally gained by a Welch boy ; would object to diminishing the number ot the prizes and increasing their value ; gives reasons ; 1726-17-16. Occasional vacan- cies occur in college from boys taking different directions in life, and not waiting for election to the University, and these he would fill up by competition from the whole school, regard- less of age or length of residence ; at present the pra>electi, those who have obtained places in the challenge, are taken ; 1747-1755. Gives special reasons in favour of a prepon- derance of classical teaching in public schools. MEYRICK, WILLIAM, Esq., page 475. His son, now 16 years old, after having been for some considerable time with Mr. Westmacott, a priv.ate tutor, in London, who spoke of him in the highest terms, went to Westminster two years ago, was put into the under fifih, and liaviniT in a year and a half obtained his head remove on every occasi'on, he went into College last Whitsuntide ; 2476-2478. He distinguished himself on the occasion, and was presented with the head boy to the Dean ; 2511. While at the school he was delighted with everything ; he fagged there and laughed at it ; but in college the wiiole thing was changed; 2480. The CoUeo-e being in tiie hands of the boys, apart from the masters, a system of slavery prevails from morning to night of the most irritating and oppressive kind ; 2485. In fact the junior boys have not a moment to call their own ; 2487. At the time he entered the college liis son was a fresh-looking fellow, in capital health (2507); he was in the " eleven," and obt.dned the largest score on the Westminster side when playing against Christ Church ; he also carried off prizes in the atliletic sports ; 2575. The witness read from written statements of his son a len;;tliened detail of what is required from a fag and the punishments and bullying resulting from breaches of the orders of the seniors ; 2476-2585, and which he desig- nated as degrading and brutal ; 2485. The result was that his son's spirits became depressed, his health failed ; 2520, and he was sent to Brighton; 2507. At last witness wrote to Mr. Scott requesting that his son might be remitted from the College 10 the School ; and Mr. Scott not assenting, at the same time stating that his son was likely to achieve distinction, 2478, he, on the previous Friday, took him from Westminster, 2479, and placed him in King's College ; 2491. He had heard old Westminsters speak of the frightful things which took place in their time at the College ; 254.3. He thought the charge for servants excessive ; in the last half he was charged 41. is., which, for 40 hoys, would give for the year 336/., but no servants or next to none were kept at the College ; 2579. Does not think th.at the boys who suffer from fagging receive any counter-benefit in the shape of protection against others who would bully them ; 2582, 2583. MEYRICK, Mr. W. S., page 484. Went to Westminster School after Christmas 1860 ; was a town boy a year and a half, and went into tlie College after the Whitsun holidays of 1 862 ; he was there five montlis, and then left and went to King's College; 2586-2593. His father removed him in consequence of tlie system pursued at Westminster ; 2594. Describes in minute detail a day's fagging from three in the morning till bed-lime ; 2595 to the end of his evidence, 2944. Similarly describes punishments for infraction of duties as fag ; a fag is responsible for his senior getting up in time ; the master is often called, and not getting up in time would complain of not being dragged out of bed ; if the fag pulled him out he would generally have a boot thrown at his head ; 2601-2605. If the fag were a moment behind the exact time at one of the cubicles he might get a licking ; 2609. If the dip (a small inkstand supplied by the fag) were not in perfect order, the senior would shy it over the wall, or give it back again, saying "I shall send you into the washing place by " my second election "; in the washing place there is a sink, about the height of a table, on which the fag has to place one of his legs while the second election runs at him and takes as many kicks as he likes ; one boy said it nearly did for him altogether ; it is a common punishment, but witness escaped it; 2622-2629. This is called '* tanning in way "; the punishment is dangerous ; 2778-2790. For being in late from an errand, although earlier return is impossible, the fag would be punished by having to stand up with hands down while the senior hits liim with the open hand backwards and forwards as long as he Mevbick, Mr. W. S. — cont. likes; 2635 and 2774. If the actual words required by custom in asking for orders are not used, the senior will pitch into the fag ; 2 653. If kept lip school between half-past 12 and 2, the boy has to ask permission to be ofT '' station in green," of " insiitnte " and " nionitor of station*'; the first would give permission, and the second, with perhaps a cuff of the head ; if kept up school the next day the monitor would say, " Go and " fetch the racket," and with the wooden racket would give the fag five or six cuts o^er the calf of the leg, or poke him in the stomach ; if the fag did not ask permission of the monitor he would be half killed ; 2714-2726 and 2777. If a senior goes to his room and finds no water in his basin he may make tlie fag kneel and strike him with the racket or kick him ; 2769, 2770. Another form of punishment is "touching toes"; the fag has to stand up, then go down without bending the knees while he receives a leathering with a cane ; if he tumbles over he has to stand up again ; has seen it inflicted ; 2771-2773. Another punishment described: the boy has to put his hand on the table and receive a stroke from the sharp end of a college cap or a paper knife ; saw a boy scarred in this way ; this might go on ten or a dozen times ; 2774—2776. Fag required to clean the grates of a morning, not to hlacklead them ; 2666— 2668. Also required to empty basins and slops after nine in the evening ; 2676-2677. Fagging interferes with the fag's learning ; he has not time for his school work ; 2682—2685. Still he gets punished for not doing it ; 2688-2692. Fell ofT in his learning ; 2736-2738. Did not suffer bodily from the punishment he received ; but he suffered greatly in spirits, and went off to bed on Saturdays as soon as he got home ; boys would feign sickness to get away from the fagging ; 2795-2808. Expense of providing the knives, i)aper, pens, pencils, &c. required of the fags would be 2l or 31. a quarter ; 2701-2713. Does not object to the fagging, but only to brutal treatment ; 2739-2744. Punishments among the town boys ; 2745, 2746. The fagging in college considered a degradation by the juniors ; 2747-2753. How punishments were inflicted by the boys ; 2756-2759, 2803-2812, 2828-2835, and 2855. Practically no appeal; 2811-2817. Fagging at games; 2816-2822. Bullying; 2823-2827. Formerly won prizes for athletic exercises, but he obtained only one after the fagging; 2837-2852. Fighting; the "milling green"; tlie upper forms do not fight ; when the lower fight the combatants must be in the same election ; 2853-2872. A junior having placed on the table a Greek Testament, when it was his duty to place a Bible, was told to fetch a stick for the monitor, who then made hlin touch toes, and beat him over the b.ick till the stick broke, and the boy then fell on to a bureau, slaggered out of the room, and the next morning was in a dreadful state; this punish- ment created great terror among all who were liable to it ; the seniors did not think it excessive; and one would not interfere if he did ; nor would the Master ; 2875-2890. Does not know how far the Masters were cognizint of what was going on ; but fancies they must know something about it; tlie Masters did not want to know too much ; 2890-2891. There seems to be a tradition in the school that things were worse in old times; warming beds ; 2892-2895. Cooking ; preparing toast and coffee ; 2896-2906. If a great deal of the laborious fagging were transferred to servants, the amount of bullying and irregular fagging would not be intolerable ; only two servants at present for 40 boys ; some of the canings would cease if the rough work were done by servants ; doubts whether the Masters could put down the custom of the boys getting up at 3 or 4 in the morning ; there would be a tremendous row about it ; if it were carried out he doubts whether the pro- hibition would not be broken through ; 2907-2917. If calling " election " were prohibited and the senior were ordered to call by name a particular boy whom he might want to send out every one of the upper boys would be up in arms against the alteration ; does not think one thing alone could be put down ; the whole system must be altered or nothing would he done; 2918-2920. Repeats that he does not object to proper fagging, such as the town boys at Westminster liave and the boys at other public schools, but the whole thing ought to be under the guidance of the Masters, not the boys ; believes that Ills feelings are shared by the boys generally, but that if questioned on the subject they would be afraid for their lives to say anything against the existing system ; he felt himself perpetually insulted and degraded, not (or Instance at being sent out to a shop, but at the mode in which he was told to go and fetch things ; the ** election ''grievance minutely described ; 2921-2929. Was 14 when he went to Westminster; had previously been at two schools, where there was neither fagging nor bullying, but the scliools were only day schools, and till he went to Westminster he had no experience of school life in which the boys are together without the surveillance of a Master ; 2930-2939. Putting aside the junior election, the other three elections in the College supported the existing system ; but one of the seniors admitted to him that some of the punishments were most brutal, especially the "tanning in "way"; 2940-2942. Would have had a worse time in his second year than in his first, because he would have had the lickings of seniors for not enforcing the system on his juniors, and that he could not have done ; some boys who were with him In junior election had told him that they had resolved not to carry out the system in their second year ; the learning is PUBLIC SCHOOLS COMMISSION :— ANALYSIS OF EVIDEi\-CE. 529 >rEYRicK, Mr. AV. S. — cont. stopped entirely Tor one year, while a junior, and is not much bfttcT during the second ; *J9-i3, 2944. A written statement of this witness is emhodled in the evidence of his fatlier, \V. Meyrick, Esq., pige 475. : iUIlK, JAMES, Esq., p. 424. Was a Queens scholar at Westminster School, SS4 ; and left it in 1817 : 890. In former times nothing was taught at public schools !>ut Latin and Greek ; cducntioii was confined to j^rammar ; there was a simplicity ahout the whole which tended to initiate in a lac h:;bils of self-confidence ; thcautliors that the boys had to read were studied solely with a view to construing and parsing. At 14 they got into the shell and the Sixth Form ; and then, independently o^ the form work, every boy was expected to enter on a career of private study and to ask thv^* Head ^Master's pcnni-o had he tried, for he w:\^ as good as the best ; there were one wrangler, one first in classics, one in mathematics, and one boy who gained every prize at Oxford ; 8S5-8S9. (^Lord Devon. — Is this system of private study entirely abolished ?) Yes ; thinks it was done by Or. Williamson ; concurrently with this the school-work was augmented, but there was not so much Greek and Latin ; more of .irithnietic and Euclid and less of the classics ; - 9CK)-905. Westminster does not carry its head so high at Oxford a5 it u^.d to do ; 906. Would revert to llie oh! sys- tem both at Westminster and Oxford, to a modified extent ; docs not think the system of private Tutors essential to it ; 907- 911 and 91 G. In his time geography, history, the mathematics, and modern languages were not studied at school ; all that was left to the university, private study, and travel; 912-915. To the projected removal of the school to another locality he is strongly opposed ; is a great apostle of tlie penius loci ; attri- butes the decline o^ the school in some degree to the dilapida- tion of the buil'lin'7, the forbiddirg appearance of the locality, and the want of proper accommodation ; 916-920. Allowing boys to be at home from Saturday afternoons to Monday morn- ings was a great convenience, to those living in London in particular ; 9ii 1-925. Another advantage of the present locality is its vicinity to the Houses of Parliament and the law courts ; 925. There is nothing specially leading to immo- rality in the locality that he can sec ; in fact tlie attractions of London are so numerous that boys scarcely get into mis- chief in tlie purlieus of the town ; 925-927. Should the sug- gested removal not take place, one of the leading features of the improvements should be the throwing open the College gardens ; he would throw College Gardens and Little Dean's Yard into a quadrangle and substitute some nice buildings for the mews at present existing, cutting off small portions of the gardens for (he use of the peojile who live in the houses ; taking down Woodfall's house, and thus enlarging the communicati(m between Great Dean's Yard and Little Dean's Yard would be of importance ; 928-938. If the School should increase, tliere might be a difficulty in procuring additional boarding house accommodation ; but perhaps a liouse might be obtained in Victoria street ; 1j39~942. tVBRIEN, Mr.GEORGE THOMAS MICH A EL, page 495. Will have been at Westminster five years at the end of the half; was a town boy a year, and then nearly four years in college ; the first year a junior ; 2945-2948. Details of a day's fagging from morning till night ; 2949, et seq. Three times a fortnight had to rise at half-past three, and light the Col lege fires ; 2950. Fagging at cricket and rackets ; 2959. Seniors' slops to empty in the evening ; 2965. The fagging still leaves the junior time for his lessons -, 2966. Felt no bad results from the fagging ; he got his remove into the sixth the half he was junior, and this he ascribes to the work he did on the mornings he was up early ; 2967-297G. When a junior did not do his duty to the satisfaction o\' his senior, he was not always punished; lie might have his ears boxed (buckhorsing); this would sting at the time, but did no permanent injury ; 2977-2982. Tanning, inflicted only for breaches of discipline, with a stick or racket ; never remembers a junior being tanned ; tanning is wrong ; remembered a general tanning of juveniles for not supplying sufficient stationery ; kicking is according to theory, but in practice he never was kicked, and never saw kicking hut once ; the kicking has become obsolete ; 2983- 3013. Other punishments inflicted by "helps " for negligence ; 3014-3027. Help is paid if his boy gets into College ; 3024- 3035. Punishment of the second election by seniors with a stick or racket ; has seen the thrashing very severe ; once saw a stick broken ; it was not on the boy who put a Gfreek 1. O'Brien', Mr. George Thomas Michael — cont. Testament on the table instead of a Bible ; 3036-3042. Was not ])repared to say iJtat a junior's time was incessantly inter- fered with by calls of •'clock " and *' election ;" there is a gool deal calculated to waste time; putting up an extra clock so that every boy might see the time for himself would obviate the waste caused by the fag having to answer calls of " clock ;" 3043-3081. If there were more servants in college, or if the servants were made regular in their attendance, it would be easy to dispense with much of the fagging ; much of it is pro- perly serrants' work ; 30S2-30S9. Fagging by the early "culls" described and defended or apologised for ; 3090-3115 and 3166-3168. Bullying; a curious instance of bullying ; a boy smoked in a cupboard, and tlie smoker expelled ; 3116- 3127. Provision o' stationery by stationers detailed ; the atten- dant expense ; n ithing like 1/. or 2/. a half; 3I2S-3148, and 3 152-3 1 58. The fag obliged to keep liis stationery bureau open ; 3149-3150, and 3159-!>165. Attention required to verbal exactitude in taking orders ; 3173-3184. Asking leave of boys to go out ; power of monitors ; it has not diminished ; the practice silly rather than inconvenient ; the seniors might abolish it ; 3185-3205. So they might "call " and " election ;" no modification made in his time ; 3206-3211. Liberty boy ; 3212-3215. Tliinks juniors are not more worked than ser- vants would be if fagging were abolished ; 3216. Did not suffer physically or morally froin being fagged ; was perfectly happy ; did not feel depressed or degraded ; 3226-3228. Was happier as a colleger than as a town boy ; 3229-3 J37. Details as to relations of second election with those above and below ; a second el.ction may be punished for the fault of »he junior ; thinks this objeciionable ; 3238-3255. Never knew an instance of seniors as a body remonstrating or interfering with a severL^ or tyrannical senior ; has never seen a scveie or tyrannical senior ; if theie were such, the intei ference would probablv take place; no recognized right of appeal by a junior in such a case; bullying may happen, and whether it would be interfered with would depend on the set there might be in the College; no rule on the subject ; 3256-3274. Thinks llie fagging at Westminster on the whole more severe ihan at other schools; 3275-3276. For a junior to lose a whole year at 15 or 16 years of age is a grieva.:ce: *he remedy he would suggest would be to relieve the junio'-s altogether from calls between 8 and 10 in the evening ; more servants would ease the juniors; 3277-3281, Objects to easing the juniors by joining the second election in fagging even in a mitigated form; 3282-3287. Is going to Cambridge and has nothing else to suggest ; 3288-3291. Occasional intercourse between the seniors and the masters; 3292-3295. Master has a knowledge of the system of the School, but only such knowledge as he obtains by complaints or by questionings ; 3296-3302. Preparation for the " play " takes up so much time as to oblige the boys to work extra hours in the morning, if they want to keep quite up to the mark ; 3169-3172. PHILLIMOKE, ItOBERT, Esq.. D.C.L., page 428. Concurs witK Mr. Mure that the abolition of private studies was a blow to the School; 943-944, 949-962, and 979,980. Dr. Goodenougli efila'ted a great improvement in the School by introducing the study of geography ; mathematics intro- duced in 1828, at the end of A\hich witness left ; 94 5-947. In his time Hebrew was taught, and really efficiently taught; many boys could read the Psalter in Hebrew ; 948, 949. Ap- proves the introduction of French into the School; French is so useful that parents wish to see boys make progress in that language, even though they do not make so much pro- gress in Greek in consequence. A boy who knows the Latin grammar thorouglily, possesses the foundation ol all grammatical knowledge, and consequently the foundation of all modern languages ; and ever* those who hold that tlie knowledge of modern languages alone is actually useful in life must know that nobody can learn any modern language so easily as he who is thoroughly conversant with Latin ; 949. Has a son at Westminster on the point of leaving ; he is Ciiptain of the School ; witness is a great advocate for full play hours ; never- theless, he has desired his son to translate out of school hours' one of the Georj^ics, and compare it wrth Dr\den*s translation ; and this, although he is not a strong boy ; 958-964. Expects that the boy will be thoroughly acquainted with Latin and Greek ; he has had the good fortune to be under a Head Master, to whom Westminster has been much indebted ; 965— 966 It was the practice at Westminster, in his own time, to prepare les',ons in school ; at Eton the practice is to learn them out of school and repeat them in ; thinks the Eton plan the best; 966-968. His son was a half b.-ardir for sonie time; coming home at night for a delicate boy is a good thing ; but the boy prefers stayiuL; at school ; approves of the civilizing and harmonizing effect of the boy being at home on Saturday and Sunday ; 969-977. His son has ncv_r com;ila:iii-'d of bullying at school ; 977-978, Does not remember any boy reading so much as described by I\Ir. Mure (see 885-887), but remembers a boy reading several books in the Iliad and in Virgil, and a portion of Cicero in private study, besides studying particular treatises, of which he was fond ; 9S0. Approves of the system of election and "challenging " peculiar to Westminster ; 980- 981. Is satisfied with the recent improvements introduced into the School ; 982. Has heard occasional complaints as to the quantity and the quality of the food, but no definite charge has been made, and on the whole be thinks the comforts of the 8X WEST- MINSTER. 530 PUBLIC SCHOOLS COMMISSION: — ANALYSIS OF EVIDENCE. I'niLLniop.F;, Robert, Estj.. D.C.I.., — cotit. hoy have been .TrcatJy improvL'ii ; 983, 9S4. Ui^crcntion grounds in Dean's Yard and Vincent Square an; very jjood ; believes the Colle-ie gardens were originally designed for the use of the boys entirely, and not, as now, merely on the three election days; his ancestor';, for three generations, both on his fatlicr's and his mother's side, himself, and his son, were all edncated at West- minster, and lie feels tlie deepest intere-^t in its welfare ; 985- 988. There is no doubt that the Sdiool fell off" very much in Goodenough's time, or shortly afterwards; believes the cause was to be found in the extreme rouLrl.ness and hardship of the life of the lower hoys, of which he gives a striking histanee on the occasion of a visit by Lady IMansfield to a sick son in a boarding house; the decline was arrested; and the School has not since been in so prosperous a condition as at present; 9H8. Tlie rooted opposirion of old Westminsters to the removal of the siic of the School had carried liim with them ; the present facility of visiting tiie Houses of Parlia- ment, arising from the vicinity of the School, was not a light one; Sir James Graliani, in one o^ liis most lirilliant speeches, stated that his first desire to liecome an orator was stimulated by listening, when a Westminster hoy, to tlie great speeches of Pitt and Fox; and witness himself remembers, when a West- minster hoy, hearing Mr. Canning's splendid speech on the aflairs of Portugal, the effect of which he never forgot. (^Lord ClaT?iidon : — Did not Sir Jmies Graham add, *' Hut I do not " send my son there, because Lady Graham objects to the " situation i)f the school "? ) Witness confesses that he believes It to be, after all, a mother's question; 989-99L The theory that Westminster is an unhealtiiy idace has been demolished by facts ; and a reaction in its favour seems to he setting in ; 991- 994. There is no hardship in tlie present modified system of fagging; 995-997. Kntirely approves of the '■'Play ;" Lord Grenville once said he never understood Terence till lie saw the plays acted l)y the Westminster boys ; does not think the acting of Terence's plavs tends to immorality ; prefers the play to the speech system at Kton and f Lirrow ; 997-1001. Agrees with Mr. Mure that the result of throwing down one of the houses, opening a communication between Great and Little Dean's Yard, and connecting the two by an iron grating would be a considerable improvement ; tiiere would be no difficulty in the way if there was a will ; 1001-1003. SCOTT, Uev. C.B., B.D., page 411. Has been Head Master of Westminster School seven years and upwards, 489-490. The statutes contemplate only two masters, who are to receive respectively 15/. and 7/. Gs. Sd. a year ; what is actually paid is '20l. and 15/. ; and besides this the Head Master had commons in hall, in lieu of which he now receives 19/. Gs. Hd. ; 491-']95. With the exception of 6,s. 2d., resides rent free, the Chapter doing tlie su!'r>Iantial repairs ; 496-497. The Head Masters share of the tuition fees was first derived from the entrances in his predecessor's time ; ac- cording to old custom Sixtli Form boys on leaving paid 10 guineas to the Head Master and six to the Under ^Lister ; since he has been Head Master these leaving fees are not received from the town boys, but only from those Queen's scholars "who have obtained elections to Christ Cliurch or Trmity or some more desirable appointment ; this amounts to SO/, a year ; the stipend fees are the two sums just named (vide 493 supra) ; 496-507, and 531, 532. Finding that while the other boys paid 25 guineas for tuition, the Queen's sciiolars paid only 17, he two years ago represented tlie case to the Dean and Chapter, and asked them to make up the Queen's scholars' fees to 95 guineas, and the Chapter agreed in July last to make them up to 24 guineas, but the money is not yet received; 50S-5IS. (The witness hrmded in a paper showing the receipts of the School including the promised payment, to be 3,336/. I85.. and the distribution, according to the scheme handed to him by Dr. Liddell and also according to a new scheme of his own.) Tlie income of the school is insufficient to enable him to offer to masters anything like the same terms as other public schools ; if his present chief Assistant Master were to leave, he would find the greatest difficulty in supplying his place ; he spoke of Mr. • Marshall, who was educated at the Charterliouse, took a second class at Oxford, and was induced hy Dr. Liddell, Dean of Christ Church, to come to Westminster; if the School could be increased, the difficulty would solve itself, by the additional tuition fees; 519-523, 534-538, and 547-550. The Under- Master has never claimed his commons in the hall ; 529, 530 Thinks it anomalous that the mathematical assistant should receive 250/. and the arithmetical assistant 277/. The property of the Dean and Cliapter has greatly increased in value, hut the stipend of the Master of the School has not increased since the rise from 12/. to 20/. shortly after the Foundation; the Dean and Chapter are bound to provide for the education and main- tenance of the Queen's scholars, hut they have not done so ; the tuition fees for the Queen's scholars are fairly chargeable on the chapter funds ; 539-543, 593-596, and 602-604. On the other hand the Chapter have uiulerstood tlieir obligations to the School in a more liberal sense; they have given proper fittings, addi- tional class rooms, and a gymnasium, and they have improved the dormitory, and put up partitions, &c. ; 544-545, Explana- tions regarding various masters, classical, French, mathematical, arithmetical; 551-565. The Mathematical Master is on the .same status as the Assistant Classical Master* hitherto the French Master has not been so, and he takes no part in the management or discipline of the School ; 566-568^ From Scott. Rev. C.B., B.D. —cont his own experience, thinks 25 boys as many as a master can teach efficiently, in a system standing by itself, with no, or very little, private tuition ; 569-573, IMathematics were sometimes taught by the Classical .Masters before 1846 ; SGd. But in that year a Mathematical Master was appointed by Dr. Liddell, and with advantage ; Gilbert, for instance, gained a wranglership and fellowship of Trinity, and there is a boy at present in the School, of whom he lias a lugh opinion, as \\ ell as several others who are expected to come off creditably ; 574-577. The Under Mister has immediate charge oi' the College, or Queen's scholars; the Mead Master has general superintendence antl control of everything, and his authority is supreme in college also ; he has the power of appointing and dismissing all Assis- tant Masters. {Lord Lytteltoji : — There is a clause in the statutes that tlie Dean shall be (jitasi mens in corporc.) Un- doubtedly the Head blaster owes allegiance and subordination to the Dean ; the Head Master, for instance, has no power to expel Queen's scholars; 577-591- The statutes by which the Foundation is governed never received the Royal assent; 592. The "tutors" under the statutes were (he Dean, Canons, and Masters ; but there has been nothing of the tutor system in existence for 250 years ; 597-600. It is possible that these tutors received lees and that this might have been the origin of fees to the masters ; probably these tutors were hoarding-house keepers and the pensioyiarii lodged vvith them, 605-612. Subject renewed ; 619-625 and 739-742. Tliinks tlie School will never be satisfactorily conducted till a portion of the Chapter property is set apart for its use ; this can he only done with the consent of the Kcclesiastical Commissioners ; 613-61S. The instruc- tion to be given to the Queen's scholars specilied in the statutes was in Latin, Greek, and Hebrew ; Hebrew is not now taught, hut more of Latin and Greek than is directed, and many other things besides, such as French, tlie mathematics, history, and geography ; the additional seven guineas were ordered to be paid on the ground of the additional subjects of instruction ; but he believes that it was the intention of the foiuider that the best education should be given, and that gratui- tously, and therefore his opinion is that the boys are entitled gratuitously to the best education of the present day ; 626- 635. Whatever was the intention of the founder, the con- dition in life of the parents of the boys has never been taken into account from tlie earliest times on record; there have been vnanw Jihi nobilcs on the list ; 637. The annual visitation of the School directed by the statutes never takes place by t!ie electors; 638-646. Opinion on "challenges ;" it is a very old and interesting relic of the ancient disputations, peculiar to Westminster, and has many advantages ; from its great expen- diture of time, however, he would not introduce it if not founded on ancient tradition ; but as it has tradition on its side he would not abolish it ; besides, its abolition would be most unpopular with the hoys, and would offend a vast number of old West- minsters ; 647-711. Bishop Williams's scholarships, with election to St, John's, having lapsed for many years, the Uni- versity Commission declared them conHscated, and St. John's College refused to refer the question of tlie legality of the confiscation ; the last person who held the scholarship at St. John's was Sir Patrick Colquhoun ; at Westminster there are four boys still on the foundation ; details and opinions; 712-735. The statutes contemj-Jate the admission of iien- sioners, town boys, ard others to the number of 80, in addition to the Queen's scholars and choristers; that number has been exceeded a great deal ; he found the other day in some notes of old Chapter orders which Dr. Cureton had lent him, that the Chapter had resolved to get subscriptions from godly disposed persons to fit up the present schoolroom, because the number of boys was too large for the original school, so that the limit of the statute Iiad been exceeded before 1600 ; a third Master was appointed to meet the increase ; 736-73?. Opinions as to the discipidi and pensionnrii mentioned in the statutes, and as to their education being intended to be gratuitous or not; 740-748. Explanations as to bills sent to parents ; the average annual expense of a boy is 110/., exclusive of pocket money and "optionals," suih as Drawing Master; 749-756. The total receipts in I860 was 2,926/.; the boys 123 in number; 757- 758. Half boarders, homo boarders, and hall boarders; some live as far off as St. John's Wood and East Sheen ; the School is increasing in all three classes proportionally ; additional accommodation providing for home boarders ; 759-778. No social difference between home and half boarders ; there is no compulsory joining in games ; no bullying of home boarders, qua home boarders ; complaint is often made that they do not^ join in the games more than they do ; the home boarders join the "eight" and the "eleven;" 779-783. Extent of the boarding-house accommodation ; authority of the matron; 784- 789. Vicious system of letting and sub-letting boarding houses; the lessee an obstacle to improvement; 790-803. Opinion as to dormitories ; prefers the Eton system ; 809-812 and 817-830. Is averse to *' studies" for the junior boys ; thinks it best to have them under supervision in a large room ; 813- 816, and 831-838. The Queen's scholars' meals, as supplied by the Chapter, are considered sufficient, but the other day the Steward made some reduction, and there \\as a little grumbling; he thought the meat was not honestly accounted for ; before the alteration there were 53 lbs. of meat for 40 boys, and two or three persons to wait upon them ; afterwards the boys com- plained that they did not get I lb. a day for dinner and supper ; PUBLIC SCHOOLS COMMISSION : — ANALYSIS OF EVIDENCK 53i Scott, Rev. C.I5., B.D.— co»^ it is unck't-slood that the boys arc to have a meat supper; cannot «ay whether tiiis is neeessai y for growing boys; never used to eat meat twice a day when at sehool, ihougli his schoolfelhnvs did ; details as to dining ; has heard no complaints of qnality nor of quantity, except that under the new order there is not sufHeient for snpper ; meals in the boardln^^ houses also good; liad heard of *' clearing the larder;" in Goodcnough^s time a hoy eat himself to dcaih ; K39-8j7. As to the profit of a boarding hcinse, it would not be fair to i^'it it at 10/. a head ; a master has renf, taxes, and scrvaits to pay, and it requires a certain number of boys to ])ny this without jjrufit ; beyond this Tiumber theie would be prolit, and the average of profit would vary witii every exlra boy; !\Ir. Marsliall, with 2J boys, might have gained 250/. a year, but if the number wi'ie reduced there would be no profit at all : 858-SGO. Some of the results of the alteration of the school system ; 8G'J-8GS. Hoys are dis- couraged from the pastry sliops, and "tick" is forbiddtn ; but debts are conslauUy being incurred ; 8G9-87I. Thi-re are no appbcaiions for admission for tou-n boys who cannot be accom- modated in the existing boarding houses, but if another boarding liouse were added t!ie personal influence of the niasier would probably attract more boys; there are, however, difficulties in the way, and probably the School will not increase mucli where it is ; S73-S78, .Some boys who fail in their trials leave the School ^oon afterwards; as a general rule the cumpt'tition has not been suflicient to exclude any boy of much promise; by way of a s!in;ulus to those who liave obtained places in the challenge, and are waiting to get to the Univcrsiiy, lie has adopted the plan of elevating these wlio manifest a decided superiority to a higher position in the annuul examination liefore the Dean ; 879-883. Further examined, page 432- One-third of tht.' boys enter the School sadly Ignornnt, some from preparatory sdiools, but the worst from home; in some cases boys applying for admission are sent back for preparation, and this is done occasionally even after admission ; 1004- 1008. Is in the habit of consultirig liis assistants on important matters, but the responsibility rests with himself; 1009-1011. In estimating the relative value of ditlerent subjects, classics are estimated at fully t.vo-lhirds of the whole, the remaining third by scriptural sulijects, history, and geography ; the English language and literature less studied at Westminster than history ; 1012-1019. Mode of teaching mathematics ; 1020-1022. Promotion not given for It, except in case of eminence; result of teaching satisfactory ; but the s!udy of niaihemutics forms a less eflicient mental training than tlie study of Gieek and Latin ; 1028-1030, 1034-103G, and 105G-10G4.' Mathematics tell in 6nal examination; 10C5-1071. Teaching Trench ; annual ex- amination prizes ; result unsatisfactory ; 1023-1027, 1037-1055, and 1072-1074. Classical translations; 1031—1033. Examina- tions, Iiow conducted; opinions thereupon; 107-5-1078, and 1102-1105. Bishop Carey's benefictlon ; 1083-lCSG. Exhi- bitions and piizcs ; 10S7-I09G. Private reading ; 1096-1 101. Abolished by Dr. l.Iddell,and only partially restored by witness in exceptional cases; not adapted to AVestmlnster, because town boys are away in the evening; subject pursued In connection with tliose of private tuition and the boarding masters; 1106— 1121. Exceptional education allowed at Westminster, by teaching Euclli! or algebra, or someiliing else, Instead of Gicck, where boys are intended lor the army or navy, or wliere there is a disincilnalijn to learn Greek ; 1122-1133. The committee who atttnd the military examinations liave asked whelhcr means could not be devised to prepare candidates at the schools instead of their being withdrawn to cram for the examinations; there is not a suHicIent number of candidates at Westminster to render such a step necessary ; candidates for the army are usually amongst the most idle boys at a public schmil, and the spirit of indolence Is confirmed by the persuasion common amongst them that a few months' work with a crannner is not only requisite but suflicivnt to make up for lost time ; I 122— 1 138. Is favourable to " bifurcation," by which a class should be introduced witli no Gre^-k teacliing at all ; 1139. LibriU-Ies : their extent, and how supported; 1140-1150. Additional library accommodation requisite ; means of providing it ; 1 151- 1156. Music, taught by Mr. Turle, the Abbey organist; drawing; 1157-1163, Moral and religious instruction and superintendence; church services; Holy Communion ; all boys who have been confirmed are expected to communicate four times a year; would not relax the rule without the Dean's sanction; 1IG4~I1S1. Pimishmcnt ; the rod applied to the back of the hand ; grave offences punisiied by hogging, but far less than formerly; impositions; all punishments given by the Head Master or Under Master ; 11S2-1I99. Duties and power of administering punishment of monitors and head and Sixth Form town boys described ; a boy's being at study would not be an excuse for his not being at play, unless he got leave ; 1200-1220. BLdieves there Is little bullying at Westminster now; it is the duty of the four head boys on the Foundation, called the captain and monitors, to prevent it, and ihey discharge that duty ; 1221-1229. It might be desirable to have only a few monitois in order to diminish the cliance of any abuse of power; has heard Dr. Temple describe his system at Rugby, of appealing from a monitor's authority to the wliole body or the Head Master, and it seems to work well, but the Westminster boys are wedded to old usages; the general exercise of tiic monitorial power has been beneficial, but it would be desirable 1. Scott, Rev. C.B., B.D.—conf. that punishment sljould not, as now, follow inmiediatt.ly on the oHence, while the blood is hot ; 1230-12::9. Usurped powers and improper punishments generally reported to the Master; 1282-1285. Fagging at AVestnilnster desciil)ed; docs not think tlie system altogether beneficial ; believes juniors have more uuik than they ought to have, and that the fa^'ging system interferes greatly with their opportunities both of reading and jdaylng; hut there must be a recognized system of fagging or there will he an unrecognized system of bullying ; faguin"- at present exists in a mitigated form, and he thinks it\\ouldbe impossible to put it down; 1240-12G9. Perhaps the Queen's scholars bear something like tlie relation of anaribtocracy to the rest of the School, still the minores rjcittcs are a more nnmerouj class and have their privileges; thiidvS it would have been a misfortune if the statutory cundition ijtnpia had been enforced as a sihc qua »on fer the Q,ueen's scholars ; 1270-1279. Tlu further condition that collfyil chorlsta: should be preferred h^ . never been carried out ; 1-80, 1281. Prefers three vacations in the year to two long ones, for London ; 1 285-1 2;Jl. iNliscel- laueous matters : time of going to bed ; substituiion of new room for cloisters; rifle corps experiment unsuccessful ; West- minster rowing inferior to Eton; cricket; swimming; 1292- 1318. Does not think the ^Vestmin5ler boys on an average arrive at very brilliant resul'.s as regards a proficiency In the languages and literature of ancient Greece and Uome ; the boys who remain long enough to enter the S:xih Form, or most of them attain to something that might be cdled a fair proficiency ; th.-y would be able to read a book of the .style of Ctesar which they had never seen before; the lest of the School would probably fail to do it accurately without a lesson ; the same as to Greek, with half the Sixth Form; 1319-1324. {Lord Clarfndou. — That confirms tlie statement of the Dean of Christ Cliureh that they were obliged to make the tesUXceedlngly low?) \es; with respect to ^iariborough lurnishing the best scholars, \ciy much depends on the number of boys, and very much of the excellence of I\Iarlborougli on the principal, Mr. Bradley ; 1325-1327. One of the chiefimprovements remain- ing to be carried out relates lo the boarding houses ; the School ought to hold directly from the Chapter and to have the power of providing additional room when tliere was a demand for It ; there is an absolute impo^sihiliiy of doing anything wiili regard to building or improvements of any kind without applying to the Dean and Clupter, and he thinks it impoilant, as lelates to the future of the School, that some independent piovision should be made for it, under some corporate body of whiuh the Head Master should be part; at present every thing is done by the Dean and Chapter, and In secret; 1328-1330. Westminster School is not an endowed foundation, but a school attached to the collerziate church ; a:, to tlie question whether the collegiate authoiities have the interest of th.e School at heart or regard It as an incumbrance, liIs reply is, it Is different with difrer^nt indi- viduals ; tiie present Dean has always been a most kind friend to the Scliool, but there had been canons who regarded it as a nuisance whlcii it was desirable to abate; 1131. The Dean and scarcely a majority of the Cl'.apter are in favour of the re- moval of the site; 1332-1:^35. The system of educational "Westminster Is more calculated to produce critical Greek and Latin scholars than gtneral proficitr.cy In nir.thematics, history, and philosophy ; Us sclu'lars, su|)plied by competition, have failed lo gain unhcrsity scholarships and prizes, while other schools supplied by nomination have succeeded ; opinion as to cause ; 1336-1345. Descriptive details of the course and order of study in Westminsler, consisting of Latin and Greek author*, with the Pauline Kplstles ; 13-16--1365. Wa?- a strong advocate for the lemoval of the School lo another site before the discus- sion which resulted in the apijolntnient of the commiltee, but when he saw the small amount of support the scheme received, and the very stiong opposition it met wiiii, he gave up the point and devoted his :ittention to a consideration of what could be done on the present site ; thinks, however, that the feeling of parent!) against having a boarding school In London is so strong and so general that llie future of Westminsler, if it remains where it is, will be as a day school ; tiie subject consiilercd in detail ; 1366-1384. Further examined, page 506. Having been informed by the Chairman tiiat information of a peinful character had been received from Mr. Meyrick, and having seen the evidence (2476-2944, commencing at page 83), the witness feels it would be a very great Injustice to the Scliool if hearsay statements, in great part erroneous were sent forth as evidence without correction, and then proceeds to apply his corrections : \Miat lie meant by saying I\Ir. Meyrick's son could not return to the Scliool was, that a bey wiio iiad with- drawn flora College under such circumstances would find his position in the School comfortless and Intolerable ; believed that such an instance had never occurred, and that, for the boy's own interest, he had Letter not return ; 3373-3377. Mr. Meyrick spoke of the statulable provision requiring a boy to be in the School a year before admission to the College as a modern abuse ; 3377. Misconceptions of Mr Meyriek and Mr. O'Brien arising from confusion of** leave out" with *' leave out of school" and "^leave down school ;" 3377-3387 and 3525. 3526. The punishment described in 24S7 impossible, luiless for some grave moral ofience, that is, speaking according to his own experience and knowledge of the boys ; does not believe that the seniors would judge imjustly of these matters ; thev had delegated the 3 Y WKST- MINSTER. 632 PUBLIC SCHOOLS COMMISSTON : — ANALYSIS OF EVIDENCE. Scott, Rev. C.B., B.'D.—conl. power of piinisliment for minor offences to the second election, a very objectionable thing, and one wliich he abolished as soon as he became through Mr. Meyrick aware of its existence; his rule is, in effect, that no power of punishment should ever be delcated to a second election, and that no boy should be cor- poraTly punished for any College neglect ; S3R8-S398 and 3410-3413. In case of puni-^hment with the racket for any other than a grave moral offence, he would expect to hear of it from the parent; 3397. Tlie subject pursued; definition of "grave moral offences" in school boys; 3399-3410. Has also abolished the system of requiring the fags to furnish sta- tionery ; the grievance, however, as to either trouble or expense, was small; a case occurred last Cliri-itmas of all the juniors responsible for the drawer being ordered a tanning for failing to supply pens and paper, but the punishment was remitted ; Mr. Meyrick brought this part of the system to his knowledge ; 3414-3-146. Tlie second election had been in the habit of per- forming two vicarious duties, inflicting puni.-h nenl for others and receiving punishment for others; 3430-34h6. Describes " buckhorsin^ " to be boxing the ears by a second election, while the Iiands of the punished hoy are down, and " tanning " to be performed by a senior with a cane or racket, although he made in times pasta rule that a racket should never be used, nor a thick sl;c'-, nor anything which could hurt, and he had been told that the old Westminster rule was that only tkc fist should be used ; found that the practice of tanning com- plained of by Mr. Meyrick liad been in use ; also the dangerous punishment called "tanning in the way," which he has since abolished; 3447-3457 and 35l7-35'i2. Thinks a rule that no senior shall ever inflict corporal punishment on the spur of the moment, or without reference to a council of seniors, though in use at Rugby, would not work at Westminster ; it might, how- ever, be worih trying; 3458-3461. The statement that boys have the power of inflicting punishment, and are perfectly irresponsible, and that a master standing by would have no control over them, is utterly false ; 346I,346'2. Furiher explanations as to Mr. Meyrick's statement, tliat the junior has not an hour or a moment during the first year, and the accompanying details ; unfortunately there is a good deal of truth in the extent to which the fagging interferes with tlieir work; still this is not to such a degree that a studious boy could not work; in the account which Meyrick gave of the occupation of the day he had supposed him-.elf to combine the " wa»ch " and the *' tenor," neither of which could he have ordinarily more than once in 10 days, and he described that as the ordinary routine of a day ; still it was true that an average boy lost during the year he was a junior; has ordered that there shall be no fagging between 8 and 10 in the evening, but more servants are wanted to pre- vent the present calls on the fags; 3463-3478, 3551, 3552, and S633-3644. As to the junior boys getting up very early to light fires and call the seniors, does not think tliat this, once a week, is hurtful, and he lias ordered that no hoy should be " calj '" oftener ; 3'579-3500. It would be better that a servant should call the seniors and light the fires; hut there are no servants to do It; has known boys suffer for want of rest; 3501-3506. Further denials of the truth of Meyrick's statement as to 7noiios, and unceasing cry of "election,*' athletic prizes, &c. ; 3506-3517, 3522,35^24,3526, 3527,3577, 3597,3623- 3625, 3634-3638, S653, 3654, and 3687. Also his statement as to the cha'ge for servants ; details relating to servants, showing that the charge does not meet the expense ; more ser- vants required; 3527-3552. To what extent; 3596-3606. More space required in the College ; lie would have another master for the juniors; and thinks a residence for him might be erected near the sanatorium ; 3553-3 360. A master living among the boys would prevent abuses, as at Eton ; 3561-3577. With the additional servants, however, he would not do away with all fagging; there would be no gilevance in the juniors getting a tea once in the evening; 3607-3609. Believes that fagging is the chief safeguard against bullying; and, therefore, he would not abolish it; 3615-3623. Opinion respecting dormitories; 36I0-36I4. A certain deterioration of morale in young Meyrick iii College would be natural in a boy perpetually brooding over tlie indignity he considers himself subjected to. (Mr. Tivishton. — Or wliich he has actually received ?) Thinks he had been ov.r indulged at home ; 3625- .S632. Vindicates the punishment for putting the Greek Testament on the table instead of a Bible, and denies the truth of some of the details of the tanning inflicted on the occasion ; S638 -3653. Opinions as to the policy or possibility of abolish- ing early calls; 3655-3664. No power to expel a colleger without consent of the Dean ; could hardly ask the Dean to expel a boy for disobedience to orders, unless the offence in- volved a violation of regulations intended to prevent a great abuse ; it would be possible to prevent the early calls, by him- self or Mr. Ingram, or some other person occa'^ionally getting up early to see that the early call practice was not exercised ; 3665-3677. Difficulties in the way of abolition; 3678-3687. Recapitulates his new rules with the new punishment, which he had issued in writing; and enumerates the duties he wishes to transfer from fags to servants; thinks all such business as attending to the fires and lighting the gas, also to some extent providing tea and bringing up tea-things, together with washing the tea-things, ought to be servants' work; furthermore, lie would have the monitor ostii, to see that no improper person entered the College during school hours, a servant; 3688-3701. The expense would be about 100/. a year; 3719-3726. Scott, Rev. C.B., B.D.— co«^ Suggestion as to using a gas stove for tlie early fire, and opinions on various subjects arising out of it ; 3702-3712. "Helps" and their mode of remuneration ; 3713, I; in the favour of the whole or partial removal of No. 18, Great Dean's Yard, and also of making an opening between the Colkge gardens and Little Dean's Yard, if a new fives court could be provided ; 3727-3739. Thinks the boys might be allowed to use the College gardens on Sundays ; but, if they did, the general public might use it too, and this might be productive of mischief; 3740, 374 I . Desires to see an increase of home boarders ; facts r.nd opinion as to school hours; 3742-3753. STEWART, Mr. ALAN, page 504. Has been nearly nine years at Westminster ; five as a town boy and. four in college ; 3303-3307. Is in his 19th year, and sixth in the Sixth Form ; 3322-3325. Did not find fagging in the College very severe, nor f^el any ill cflect from it ; iie obtained tiis remove at the end of his junior year ; never heard till now the statement that a junior's year is almost lost to him for reading and advancing in the scliool ; 3303- 3318. Does not co.isider the puni'ihments inflicted by the seniors or the second elections on the juniors severe; ha-i heard of boys who had been tyrannical, but not in the la.t year ; 3319. Has never seen the punishments of " buckhorsing," or "tanning" ; knows what Is meant by '• tannuig In way,'* where a boy is obliged to stand with one leg on the sink while he is kicked, but did not know tliat the punishment had been in- flicted till the other day, when IMr. Meyritk complained, and then he Jound tliat il had been uiflicted last ytai, but only once, and he believes it was not done three times while he was in col- lege ; 3320-3331. Believes tiie punishment was Inflicted by the captain's order ; any senior can order it ; and the kicking would be administered by his second election ; there Is a certain for- mality about it ; it Is considered severe; 3332-3339. believes the seniors, since the comjdaint of Mr. Meyrick, have agreed to abolish this punisliment ; but that would not bind t''e seniors of next year ; 3340-3348. (The Head Master nas since abolished the punishment, 7iofe to 3345.) Has not been cogni- zant of any act of undue severity during his four years in college; 33^9-3351. If the senior is right-minded and not over severe, thinks the existing system incapable of improve- ment ; 3352-3354. His happiest years h:ive been spent in college ; tlie boys are more withdrawn from the personal superintendence of the master and left to their own self- government than in the Sjhool ; the collegers are the dis- tinguished and dominant class at Westminster; the smaller boys are as happy in the boarding-houses as the juniors in college; 3355-3362. Never heard of town boys shrinking from standing out for college for fear of the trealment of the junior year ; the juniors' year is only tliought a veiy hard year by those who have not tried it ; Mr. Meyrick was in his junior year, and had partly tried it ; never heard of any other case where a boy was removed from alleged liardship ; 33G3-336S. Does not know whether lliete is considered to be more bullying at other schools than at Westminster ; 3369-3372. THOMPSON, II. L., Esq., page 466. Was at Westminster School as town boy from October 1851 to Whitsuntide 1854, and then in colIej;e for four years; is now at Christ Church , 2035-2038. The college and town boys are on a footing of equality, socially and In games; the Queen's scholars are above the town boys in privileges, such as acting the play, a higher seat in the Abbey and at school, and the privilege of attending debates in Parliament ; 2 139-2045. The Queen's scholars like wearing the gown and cap ; it is through wearing the gown they get into the Houses of Par- liament, a privilege which is much valued and much used up to lock-up hours; 2046-2051. The home boarders are also on an equality, and join in the boating and other games, but not so much as the others; there is, however, not unfrequently one in the "eight"; 2052—2055. Details as to admission to the Colh'ge ; thinks the competition a good method of testing the merits of candidates ; 2056-20SO. Captain and moni- tors; their duties desctihed; they are confined to the College; monitors have power .of punishment, by sending boys to the desks, caning, and giving impositions, but caning is seldom resorted to; he himself caned only one boy widle he was captain ; a monitor can cane a boy on the spur of the moment, but he would be remonstrated with if he did not give himself time to reflect; appeal is seldom resorted to; public opinion in the School is satisfied with the manner in which punishments are adminisHTed ; racket on a boy's hand; 2081-2107. Out of college similar powers are in the hands of the head boys ; 2108, 2109. Monitorial powers are part of ihe original foun- dation; subject pursued ; 2110-2114. The ge.eral tone at W^estminster while he was there was high ; the conduct of the boys was gentlemanly and honorable, and the reverse would have been reprobated ; no special immorality was traceable to Westminster as a locality; punishments for breaking bounds severe; 2115-2138. Bullying rare; heard of one boy leaving school in consequence of bullying while be was at West- minster; 2139-2150. Studious boys would suffer from idle boys preventing them from learning their lessons ; big, idle boys in low forms threatened little boys with vengeance if tlu'y got above them ; It had little effect ; 2151-2159 Fagging existed at Westminster while he was there ; does not think it was abused, or that it was unpopular, or that it interfered materially with the boys* studies; it was not a sufficient excuse for a fag PUBLIC SCHOOLS COMJIISSION :— ANALYSIS OF EVIDENCE. 533 Thompsox, H. L., Esq. — cont. to say he had got to do his verses ; was a fag himself as a town boy, and had to call his master in the morning, brush his clothes, get his bath ready, run errands in the day, fag at the games, and put out hi^ washing tilings, but not to clean his shoes, make his breakfast, or do anything in the evening ; 2160- 2193. Football, dormitories, studies fires, furniture; 2194- 2215, and 2231-2233. Food good; the beer sometimes ; supper plentiful ; all had cold meal ; there was nothing to complain of then; 2216-2223. The food in the board- ing houses was also very good ; there was more variety than in the College; 2224-2228. Supper and tea; 2229, 2230. Mode of spending Sunday ; 223 i-22'H. Special service once a month, at 8 o'clock, when the Head Master preached to the boys ; on those occasions the town boys, who were at other times at home on Saturday afternoon and Sunday, were in attendance; the boys liked tiie sermons; 2245-2255. Other religious instruction given on Mondays ; the Lower Form boys used to get up some portion of Bible history and construe some Greek Testament; in the Sixth Form they read some Greek Testament and some book connected with the study of the Bible, such as '* Home's Introduction" or " Barry's In- " troductlon " or '' Humphrey's Commentary on the Acts ;'' 2256—2262. Great care taken to prepare for Confirmation and the Communion ; Communion was administered at the beginning of every term, and the Queen's scholars who had been con- firmed were expected to attend; those in the boarding houses were not ; 2263-22S6. Boarding houses ; boys did not work with the boarding masters, except occasionally ; no relation between master and boy existed at Westminster analogous to that which prevails at Eton and Harrow ; private work is done by some of the boys, but it is not expected ; no prizes given for extra work, except in mathematics, for which the master gave a prize; 2287-2304, and 2311-2315. Mode of studying mathematics; 2305-2310. Prefers the " help " sys- tem to the tutorial ; 2316-2318. Miscellaneous details as to study; 2319-2325, and 2407-2420. There is very little flogging at Westminster; Mr. Scott flogged less than Dr. Lid- deli ; there was about one flogging a week; that was much less than tradition spoke of, and the diminution had had a beneficial influence; mode of administering flogging; 2327- 2343. Much intercourse between the upper boys and the Head Master; boys were much influenced by his sermons; 2344-2348. The head boys would look after the conduct of the lower boys, being looked after in turn by the masters and their own consciences; formation of character very much left to public opinion; 2349-2351. A boy cannot be elected to College after 15 ; he stays four years before going to the Uni- versity ; stimulus to study increased by the introduction of an annual readjustment of places ; 2352-2365. Town boys not admitted to competition with Queen's scholars on going ofi^ to College, though often liigh iii order of merit ; competition would be increased by admitting both to the examination before going to the University, but it would not be liked by the Col- lege boys ; it might be advantageous to the school work ; the subject pursued ; 2366-2383. French language taught at W^estmlnster in the Upper Forms; was four years learning, but made little progress; when he left he could read an easy French book, not an average book nor a leader in a French newspaper ; he had no fluency in speaking ; 23S3-2401. Some physical geography was taught in the Sixth Form, but nothing else in natural science ; 2392. Learned modern his- tory and modern geography from private reading ; 2402-2406. Libraries at Westminster; 2421-2425. The tutorships at Christ Church are by no means restricted to Westminster stu- dents ; at present there is no Westminster tutor; 2426-2431. English literature not much read at Westminster ; 2419-2420. Most of the boys have probably read the principal plays of Shakspeare and novels of Sir Walter Scott ; Milton not much read ; some of the masters would take some of the boys to the theatre to see Shakspeare acted ; 2432-2435. Thinks that at- tending debates in Parliament led the boys to take interest in general politics ; they lead newspapers ; there was no de- bating society ; 2436-2441. Hours of school work, holidays, games ; 2442-2449. Thinks the "play" advantageous to scholarship and favourable to morality ; 245 J, 2451, and 2460- 2462. Impositions by the masters by way of punishment ; 500 lines would be thought very long, 50 lines short ; 2452- 2459. Looking back at his school carreer at Westminster, thinks the education he received there as good as he could have received at school ; the boys were well grounded in grammar; of late years Westmfnster has not stood well in the final schools at Oxford as to honours, l)ut it has always stood well at moderations; at Christ Church nearly half the classical first-class men in moderations have been Westminsters ; opinion as to the reason for this; 2463-2475. THYNNE, Rev. Lord JOHN, page 455. Has been Canon of Westminster 31 years and Sub- Dean 27, this latter being an annual appointment by the Dean; 1757- J758. Westminster School has no separate endowment; it is similar rather to the grammar schools attached to the cathedral churches than to Eton and Winchester ; the revenues of the ■ Dean and Chapter of Westminster are charged with stipends to the Dean and Canons, and the Head Master and Under Master, together with money payments for commons, also with liveries and commons for the 40 scholars on the Foundation ; formerly the allowance for breakfast consisted of bread and cheese and beer, of which few availed thpmselves; hence arose Thtkne, Kev. Load John — cont. the custom of half boarding at one of the dame's houses by which the cost of tuition and maintenance aver Ji;,ed from 80/. to 100/. yearly; they always dined in hall ; in 1846, Dean Buck- land suggested the erection of a dime's house for the Queen's scholars exclusively, with such alterations of commons iu hall as would furnish a breakfast nnd supper more in accordance with the existing taste and habits of youths, and this plan he submitted to the then Prime Minister, Sir Robert Peel, for the sanction of the Crown; Her M ijesty approved the scheme and made a liberal contribution towards currying it out, and it was carried out under the direction of Dean Buckland, who guaran- teed that the cost of each Queen's scholar should be reduced to45/. ; further reductions had since been made, and that ex- pense was now below 35/. a year ; the whole cost of the altera- tion was 4,000/. and 5,000/., to whicli the Dean ar.d Chapter contributed 700/.; thenceforward (he Queen's scholars have had all their meals in ball, the use of the sanatorium when ill, and their clothes properly taken care of; 1759-1770. Of the present charge for Queen's scholars of 34/. odd, 17 guineas goes for tuition; 1771. When Dr. Bill, who was Master of Trinity College, Cambridge, drew up the statutes, it was probably in- tended that the education should be gratuitous, but the Queen (Elizabeth) refused to confirm them, and the leading principle in the election of scholars was at once departed from, for the eldest son of Sir Nicholas Bacon, Lord Keeper of the Great Seal, was a scholar, and was elected to Cliristchurch, Oxford, notwithstanding his ineligibility under the proposed statutes by reason of his being heir to 10/. a year; tlie privilege of nomina- tion by the Dean and Canons and Head and Under Masters has also long been in abeyance ; describes an alteration that has been lately made in the connexion of the Westminster School with Trinity College; 1772-1776. Statutes never incidentally confirmed, 1950-1951. Tuition fees for Queen's scholais have been paid from time immemorial; for instance, they paid Dr. Busby 4 guineas a year in 16S4 ; 1777-1780. The Sjlicicor- GeneraVs (now Lord Chancellor Westbury's) opinion as to the operation of the Matutes ; 1781-1784, 18*44, 1S45, and 1902- 1905. When the present Master represented thai the 17 guineas was insuflicicnt to secure the scholars their present tuition, the Dean and Chapter stated the case to the Ecclesias- tical Commissioners, who sanctioned an additional payment from the capitular revenues of 7 guineas for each Queen's scholar ; by a concordat mutually accepted by the Ecclesiastical Com- missioners and the representatives of 1 1 or 12 chapters of which he was chairman, the Dean and Chapter are to continue to manage the Chapter property giving over to the Commissioners such portions as would have been paid to the suspended canon- ries; 1781-1797, and 1834-1843. There is no separate estate belonging to the School ; 1798, 1799. The charge for the ser- vants and the medical attendant were not contemplated by the statutes ; does not think It desirable to abate those charges, as the servants do the duties formerly {Itscharged by the scholars, and the medical attendance is much to their advantage, and, being compounded for, saves the parents much expense ; 1800— 1804. The next article charged is *' firing ;" anciently there was a certain allowance for firing, and anything extra was provided by the boys themselves; hot-water pipes were introduced to thoroughly warm the place, and as the boys had hitherto paid for what was partial and imperfect Dean Buckland considered they ought to contribute something towards the more complete warmth ; he placed the amount at 2t7 guineas, which witness, "hen acting for tlie Dean in his illness, reduced to one guinea ; 1804. Firing; 1804 and 1909- 1913. Washing; 1805, 1806. The fabric fund applicable to the Abbey and its appendages, and to the school and its appen- dages, is a portion of the general revenue appropriated according to long usage; 1807-1813. The new boarding house in Great Dt^an's Yard built by the Chapter with the consent of the Ecclesiastical Commissioners; if a new boarding house were called for, the Chapter would not build it without their consent; 1814-1822. Present houses not held immediately under Dean and Chapter, but rented by the occupiers of the lessees ; but the lessee is restricted from sub-letting except to persons approved by the Head Master or above a named rent; 1823-1833. Relation of the Ecclesiastical Commissioners and the Chapter described ; Ciiapter continue to administei their revenues, subject to a restraining supervision by the Commis- sioners and payment to them of the revenues of the suspended canonries ; 1834-1845, Opinions and facts with regard to the scheme for alterations in the buildings in Dean*s Yard ; 1846— 1870. Opening the College gardens would be objectionable to himself and the other persons at present possessing keys ; and not attended with advantage to the School ; 1871-1880. Does not feel the want of a better fives court and a better library ; the fives court has been much improved within his memory, and a covered place for hand fives in wet weather built within the last year at a cost of 1,000/. ; there is a library, formerly the museum, in which Dr. Liddell took great interest, and to which he added many interesting books; 1831-1888. The sanatorium was built by subscription ; Her Majesty con- tributed 800/.; the parents of the Queen's scholars were charged five guineas a year for interest on the deficiency while It existed; it is stricUy used in cases of sickness, but only by the Queen's scholars, who pay four guineas each for the servants and have a full equivalent for their money; 1889-1901 and 1763 supra. Dr. Buckland had no other object in view iu his arrangements, than the welfare of the School; 1902-1905. Servants, I906- WEST- MINSTER, 534 PUBLIC SCHOOLS COMMISSION: — ANALYSIS OF EVIDENCE. WEST- MINSTER. Thynnf, Rev. Lord John — cont. 1908. Servants in tlie sanatorium ; 1898, 1899. Believes the food furnibhcd to the Queen's scholars is of good quality and sufficient in quantity ; has heard no complaint of short com- mons ; helieves there has been a reduction in the quantity of meat to Uh. aday; the change is temporary and under con- sideration by the Dean and Chapter; there is no intention to improperly limit tlie food; 192:5-1927. The income of the Dean and Chapter has greatly increased in recent times; 1928- 1931. E-tamination pursued as to whether the School, the masters, and the scholars have participated in the increase of the revenues; 1932-1943. Considers the charges legally payable out of the funds to the school to be, according to tlie average taken by Dr. Tournay in 1832, above 1,400/., allowing for ihe variation in the price of commons; 1944-1949. Ex.-unina- tion as to whether the finances of the school ought not to he increased in the 5.ame proportion as the other portion of the property ; thinks this woidd open other questions, some of which he enumerates; 19S2-19(iO. Wiiether an arrangement might be made with the Ecclesiastical Commissioners, by which the school could be placed on a i/uasi separate foundation with a defined portion of the revenues has never come before the Chapter for consideration; 1961-1969. {Lord Clnrcndoii — Witii an average income to the Dean and Chapter of 47,00C/. something under 1,000/. is expended on the school ?) There is more than that expended on the school. (Lord Clarendon. — It seems that the school which is allied to the cathedral foun- dation has not shared in the increase of income to an extent which is proper and right.) It will he found that the Dean and Chapter have not the power of varying the payments of their own accord; and that when their revenues were less the income of the Head Master was proportionately greater, and that while the one has increased with the improvement of the properly the other h,is diminished by the decrease of the num- ber of boys; 1970-1980. Examination as to whether the School has a moral claim to a greater portion of the capitular revenues ; there are no funds at the Chapter's disposal w ithout the consent of the Ecclesiastical Commissioners ; and there would be a difficulty in the Chapter suggesting an appro- priation of more money to the Commissioners ; the subject pursued at length ; 1981-1996. At the instance of Dr. Liddell, he submitted the question of the removal of tlie School to the consideration of those in authority ; Dr. Liddell represented that he received numerous applications for admission to West- minster, but that when the parents inspected the premises they declined, with few exceptions, to send their children into so populous a place, preferring a country situation ; at the Instance of Lord Palmerston, the prime minister, he went with Dr. Liddell and the present Head !\Iaster to a spot which his Lordship suggested as suitable for the pinposc, hut they did not think favourably of it ; by tiie deatli of Dean Buckland witness's authority ceased, but the present Dean cordially took up the matter and called together a meeting of old Westminsters whose attachment to the old s])ot was so unmistakeahly expressed that the proposition was considered as negatived and the question is at rest ; 1 997-2002. To obviate as far as possible the objec- tion to the locality, the Chapter had dime much that was recom- mended by Lord Devon's Committee ; but olijected to an opening which would only let in a narrow current of wind from the east ; 2003-2006. As to the choristers (jw evidence of the Rev. Mi'. Lupton and Mr. Turle ; 13SS-1JS3), thinks the arrangements made by Dean Buckland for the choristers highly advantageous for them ; they learn Latin, and receive a good commercial education ; he scarcely remembers more than one family taking advantage of "Westminster School ; and thinks the choristers never were clothed and maintained free of expense ; 2012— 202B. Superannuation of masters ; Act for regulating the distribution of ecclesiastical patronage ; 2029-2034. TURLE, Mr. JAMES. See Luptox, Rev. J,imes M.A., page 444. WEARE, Rev. THOMAS WILLIAM, page 402. Was Second Master at Westminster School from 1841 to August last, just 20 years ; 256, 2j7. Seine increased accom- modation required, especially if the number of boys should rise ; 258-268. The number fell ofi' from 300 in 1821 to 67 in 1841, when he joined the School in Dr. Williamson's lime ; the highest number between 1841 and 1861 was 142 ; at present the number is 143; 269-275. Thinks the great cause of the falling off from 1S3I to 1841 was the establishment of King's College ; another cause is the objection urged against the locality ; thinks, however, that statistics show Westminster to be more healtiiy than Eton and Winchester ; 276-284. Is opposed to the removal ijf the School into the country ; it would be fatal to the genius loci ; it would no longer be Westminster School; 285-287, 295-306, and 309-314. Connexion of Westminster with Christ Church ; 288-294. His objection to the removal of the School shared by many mainly on the ground of local and historical associations, but independently of W'eaae, Rev. TnoMA,s William — cont. this there are certain privileges which the Queen's scholars have, such, for instance, as the right of attendance In the Houses of Parliament, which is every year taken advantage of ; the boys go to hear the debates, those debates become a subject of con- versation and discussion among themselves ; 307, 308, 326-331. The bounds described; 315-318. Accommodation for Ijoarders; 321-325. The Chapter have the patronage of a number of benefices ; they acknowledge no obligation to bestow them on the masters of the School ; 332-337. Statutable relation of tutor and foundationer has become obsolete ; 338-340. Edu- cation of the Foundation was intended to be gratuitous ; very early a charge was made ; it was 13 guineas when he was a boy; afterv/ards it increased to 17/ ; the whole amount now paid by the Foundation scholars is about 34/. a year; the st.atutes con- templated the boys being supported as to their accommodation, food, and education, though not as to clothing, as at the Char- terhouse ; the Dean and Chapter receive more now than for- merly, so ought the scholars ; 341-351. His wife's grandfather w.as a canon from 30 to 40 years ago, when the average value of a canonry was 1,200/. a year; present value 2,300/., of which canon repays part to Commission ; there has been no commensurate Increase in the advantages of the scholars ; the sum which the scholars pay, but ought not to pay, is 34/. a year ; 352-359. Duty of the master with regard to tuition ; Latin and Greek taught, Hebrew dropped a few years ago ; 360-36.'^. Suggestions for increased ventilation and oilier improvements in Dean's Yard, should the projected removal of the School be abandoned ; 366-369. Description of past altera- tions and improvements; 378-387. Play ground in Dean's Yard and Vincent Square ; 370-373, and 459. Boating ; 374- 387. The annual "play;" would regret Its discontinuance; sees no inconvenience with regard to the present accommodation for it calling for a remedy; the erection of a new building for it would be throwing money away ; the moral effect is not bad, nor does the preparation for it Interfere witli the studies; on the contrary, the scholarship of the boy Is improved by it ; the play was instituted by royal authoriiy for the teaching of elocution and Latin ; SS8-405. Explanation of the private tuition at Westminster .abolished by Dr. Liddell; understands that the svstcm prevails at Eton, and thinks that some boys who may be backward and idle require private ; ssistance, but as a general rule it is detrimental to a hoy to have masters over him to assist him in all he does, both as regards the acquirement of scholarship and individual character, as it creates a dependent feeling in the boy's mind which is highly objectionable ; 406- 413. Boys of good ability educated at Westminster may be able, without supplemental aid or cramming, to p.ass civil service or ai-my examinations; 414-420. The religious and moral training at Westminster ; Holy Communion at the Abbey ; sermons ])artially addressed to the boys; saints' days ; besides all this, tlierc Is a special monthly service at 8 in the morning at the Abbey ; considers the provision for religious training ample and satisfactory; 421-435. Boys distinguished for intel- lectual progress are generally the best cricketers and rowers ; 436. Mathematics and French form part of the regular curri- culum at Westminster; no demand for German ; French is obli- gatory, but in special cases, where a boy is destined for engineer- ing pursuits, and may be about to leave, permission is given to him to neglect French and Greek, and devote his whole time to mathematics ; and this system he considers a good one ; 437- 439. French, liowtver, has never been |iopular ; it Is taught in every form ; there are prizes and marks for proficiency ; the inasler, M. Dupont, is a Frenchman, and a good teacher ; he is much respected by the boys, and has little difficulty In managing them ; 440-452. From his own experience and observation can affirm that boys educated at Westminster often succeed In their underinkings ; the late Duke of Wellington said the Westminsters in his staff were his best officers ; he was speaking of Colonel Cadogan, Colonel Cotton (now Lord Combermerc), tlie late Duke of Richmond, and Lord Fitzroy Somerset; Lord Clarence Paget, at the Admiralty, was a Westminster boy ; In too many cases, however, the aristocracy prefer sending their sons elsewhere; 453-457. There is no want of stimulus at the School ; there are book prizes, money prizes, and University exhibitions ; 458. Nothing suggests itself to him as likely to add to an increase of numbers, except the Improvement of Dean's Yard and the use ol the College garden on Sundays as a private walk for the hoys ; 459. Day boys and boarders at present all ^ on the same footing in the School ; 460-464. Bullying at Westminster of rare occurrence; but the senior boy has his junior t(t make his coffee and tea, under llmitalions ; thinks the connexion conducive to good ; fagging can hardly be said to exist at Westminster ; the menial services, such as cleaning the senior's shoes and the candlesticks, were abolished in 1845; fagging out at cricket is not objectionable; 465-471. Diet; 472-488. The witness subsequently sends In a list of Westminster boys who distinguished themselves in after life. See page 410. LONDON: Prinfed by Geokge E. Etre and William Spottiswoode, Printers to the (Queen's most Excellent Majesty. For Her Majesty's Stationery Office. UNIVERSITY OF CALIFORNIA LIBRARY Los Angeles This book is DUE on the last date stamped below. '"H« LIHRAJ^Y UNlVLiuSi'iY OF CALirOSiPti UM ANGEL& ^^-^ 635 A15 1864 T.3 'J. €1^' msM m ■■-■%. '-^"tiVjl