iS56 ilit|(W'r!;rrT: \HK,H .■■,V-;ii; J • ."J*^ ...I .n'. ■;;, ,j'...,:,"«k' ■,iil!:':.vr;'";!crt;;,ijw5i) R TRANSPORT ATIO FIRST REPORT PROM THE SELECT COMMITTEE ON TRANSPORTATION; TOGETHER WITH' THE MINUTES OF EVIDENCE, AND APPENDIX. Ordered, hy The House of Commons, to he Printed, 11 May 185G. 2-I4- Jovi Ordered, That a Select Committee be appointed to inquire into the Provisions and Operation of the Act l6 & 17 Vict. c. 99, intituled " An Act to substitute in certain Cases other Punishment in lieu of Transportatiou." Mart is, 8° die Aprilis, 1856. Committee nominated of, — Mr.Baines. Sir John Pakington. Mr. Scott. Mr. Wortley. Sir William Heathcote. Mr. Adderley. The Lord Advocate. Mr. Serjeant O'Brien. Ordered, That the Committee have power to send for Persona, Papers, and Records. Ordered, That Five be the Quorum of the Committee. Mr. Henley. Mr. Wii'kliam. Mr. John Wynne. Mr. Massey. Mr. Becket Denison. Mr. Deedes. Mr. Seymour Fitzgerald. Jovis, 10' die Aprilis, 1856. Ordered, That Mr. Scott be discharged from further attendance on the Committee, and that Lord Naas be added to thereto. Martis, lb" die Aprilis, 1856. Ordered, That the Committee do consist of sixteen Members, and that Mr. Monckton Milnes be added thereto. Ordered, That Sir Willinm He;ithcote be discharged from further attendance on the Committee, and that Mr. Ker Seymtr be added thereto. Joiis, 22" die Maii, 1856. Ordered, That the Committee have power to Report the Minutes of Evidence taken before them, from tioie to time to The House. REPORT - p- "1 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE P i APPENDIX P-179 [ iii ] ! 1 '' ^^4 9 y. I FIRST REPORT. THE SELECT COMMITTEE appointed " to inquire into the Provisions and Operation of the Act 16 & 17 Vict. c. 99, intituled 'An Act to substitute in certain Cases other Punishment in lieu of Transportation,'" and who were empowered to report the Minutes of Evidence taken before them, from time to time to The House : H AVE taken Evidence on the Matters to them referred, which they have agreed to report to The House. 27 May 1856. 244. 830139 [ iv ] LIST OF WITNESSES. Jovis, 17° die Aprilis, 1856. Horatio Waddington, Esq. --------p. i Lima, 21' die Aprilis, 1856. Horatio Waddington, Esq. - - - - - - - -p. 25 Thomas Frederick Elliot, Esq. - - p. 26 Luna, 28' die Aprilis, 1856. Captain Donatus O'Brien - - - - - - - -P-47 Jovis, r die Maii, 1856. Captain Donatus O'Brien - - - - - - - -P'73 Captain Irwine S. Whitty P- 7^ Lunce, 5° die Maii, 1856. Captain Irwine S. Whitty P- ^7 Colonel Joshua Jebb, R.E.,c.B. - - - - - - -P-Q^ Jovis, 22° die Maii, 1856. Colonel Joshua Jebb, R.E., c.B. - - - - - - -p. 114 Captain Walter Crofton - - - p. 138 Luna, 26' die Maii, 1856. Captain Walter Crofton P- 144 fvight Honourable Earl Grey p. 160 [ 1 ] MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. Jovis, 17* die Aprilis, 1856. MEMBERS PRESENT. Mr. Baines. Sir John Pakington. Lord Naas. Mr. Woriley. Mr. Adderley. The Lord Advocate. Mr. Serjeant O'Brien. Mr. Henley. Mr. John VVynne. Mr. Massey. Mr. Beckett Denison. Mr. Deedes. Mr. Seymour Fitzgerald. Mr. Monckton M lines. The Right Hon. MATTHEW TALBOT BAINES, in the Ch.ur. Horatio Waddington, Esq., called in ; and Examined. 1 . Chairman.'] I believe you fill the office of permanent Under Secretary of H. Waddington, State for the Home Department? — I do. ^' 2. How long have you occupied that office? — Since the year 1848. 3. Do you remember the passing of the Act 16 & 17 Vict., c. 99, in the year i? April 185C. 1853 ?— I do, perfectly well. 4. I believe the preparation of that Act was a good deal under your own super- intendence? — It was; in conjunction, of course, with the Lord Chancellor, and Lord Palmerston, who was then Principal Secretary of State. 5. I observe that in the Preamble of that Act, it is stated that " by reason of the difficulty of transporting offenders beyond the seas, it has become expedient to substitute, in certain cases, other punishment in lieu of transportation." Will you give the Committee some information as to the nature and extent of the "difficulties of transporting offenders which had by that time come under your observation ? — It is rather difficult to decide exactly at what point to begin upon such a question ; but perhaps I may mention to the Committee that the first deadly blow which was struck at the system of transportation to the Australian colonies was given by a Committee of the House of Commons in 1838, generally known, I believe, as Sir William Molesworth's Committee. You are aware, I dare say, that the Report of that Committee of 1838 was extremely adverse to transportation, and recommended its discontinuance, both as a great injustice to, and a serious infliction ujjon the colonies, and also as a bad ])unishment in itself, failing to deter criminals at home, or reform them abroad ; in fact, it is impossible to have a Report more decidedly adverse to it. There was at that time a very strong party in the colony opposed to transportation ; not, however, at that time so strong I believe as those who were in favour of it. That Report of course gave great strength to the opponents of transportation ; and though the system continued, yet the opposition increased in strength, I believe, every year. Unfortunately, in a few years preceding the year 1845, from 1840 to 1845 inclu- sive, the Government thought it right to send out an enormous quantity of convicts to the colony of Van Diemen's Land ; there were no less than the enormous number of 17,000 convicts sent out in those six years. The consequences of that were most disastrous ; the supi)ly was infinitely greater than the demand ; they could not be emi)loyed by the settlers ; they were congregated in immense numbers on 0.42. A public 2 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE tl. Waddington, public works. A frightful degree of crime was produced, and a proportionate Esq. degree of alarm ; and the result was, that though transportation to Van Diemen's Land was susiiended for two or three years, still the feeling against it gaining 17 April 185G. additional strength, leagues were formed ; the local Legislatures passed resohitions against it ; an Australian league was formed two or three years afterwards to put an end to it. and the consequence was, that at the end of the year ISfjO trans- portation to New South Wales and Soutii Australia was discontinued ; the great glut had been in the year preceding 1845 ; the suspension was in 1846 and 1847. Transportation was again resumed to Van Diemen's Land in 1848, and continued untd its entire abolition at the end of the year 1852. 6. Mr. Adder ley.} What was the date of the league ? — I think it was 1850 or 1851, I cannot exactly state. I need scarcely mention that the discovery of the gold fields of course gave additional strengtli to the colonists ; it gave them more confidence in themselves, and increased their prosperity, and made them feel more strongly the extreme degradation and positive injustice of having the dregs of the English population regularly imposed upon them. 7. Sir J. Pakington.] The league did not originate in Van Diemen's Land ? — I think it originated in South Australia. 8. Mr. Ilculejj.] And of course the discover)' of the gold fields made the great stream of free labour set there? — An immense deal of free labour set there; it gave such a sudden spring to the jirosperity of the Australian Colonies generally, that it was i)retty clear that from tliat time transportation was at an end. I may observe also that it produced an idea in this country tliat transportation, instead of deterring offenders, Avas rather an inducement to them to commit crime ; that idea was, I think, rather extensively entertained in this country at one time ; it was not, I believe, well founded, as the Criminal Returns show ; however, it pi"0- duced its effect. Then, as I said before, transportation to South Australia was discontinued at the end of 1850; the last convicts were sent there in 1850; I think 297 only were sent in that year. It continued for two years longer to Van Diemen's Land with a still increasing opposition, and at the end of 1852 it was al)andoned to Van Diemen's Laud also, leaving as our only outlet the little colony of Western Australia. 9. Sir J. Pakington.] In one or two of your recent answers you have alluded to convicts being sent to South Australia ; I apjirehend that you refer either to New South Wales or to Victoria? — Yes; I perceive that is the case. 10. I believe that convicts were never at any time sent to South Australia? — Upon looking at this memorandum of Mr. Elliot's, from which I principally derive my information upon this subject, with which we at the Home Office have nothing to do practically, I see that, in stating South Australia from recollection, I should have stated that the convicts were in reality sent to New South Wales ; South Australia joined in the protest against the continuation of transportation, most undoubtedly. 11. Chairman.'] I think you have arrived at the point where you have stated that in 1852 transportation ceased to Van Diemen's Land ? — Yes ; and I shall ask permission to correct my evidence by stating that at the end of 1850 trans- portation ceased to i\ew South Wales, and at the end of 1852 it ceased to Van Diemen's Land. 1 2. Did that state of things create the difficulty of transporting offenders beyond the seas mentioned in the Preamble of the Act of Parliament which we are met to consider ? — It did ; the number which the colony of Western Australia could receive was com])aratively very small. 13. Can you give the Committee information upon that point? — It is some- what uncertain ; but the notion, I believe, was, that it might be from 500 to 600 a year, or something of that sort ; and that we could not in future count upou being able to transj)ort more than 500 or 600 ; there might be more or less. 14. Can you inform the Committee as to the number of persons sentenced to transportation during the last few years before 1853 ? — Yes ; I can give the Com- mittee the number during the last five years, or during the last teu, wiiichever they think best, ending with the year 1852. The number of convicts sentenced to transportation in 1848 were 3,601. 15. Is this for England, Scotland, and Ireland ? — This is for Great Britain only. I have purposely kept Great Britain separate from Ireland, because Irish criminal statistics are so perfectly different from those of England and Scotland, that if they were introduced into any average, they would throw it into complete confu- sion. SELECT COMMITTEE ON TRANSPORTATION. 3 sion. Of course the Committee can have the Irish returns separately if thev h. Waddinoton wish it. Esq. iH. Mr. Serjeant 0'BrienS\ I suppose the 17,000 sent to Van Diemen's Land in the five years were from Great Britain only? — The 17,000 were from Great 17 April 1856, Britain and Ireland both; those were before 1845. I am now taking Great Britain, because the description of Irish convicts is so entirely different from those of Great Britain, that the transportation has been very much more irre- gular from Ireland, and also the fluctuation of crime in Ireland has been so extremely great, as compared with that in England and Scotland, that if vou attempted to make an average of it, you would not get a correct notion of the state of things, either in Great Britain or in Ireland ; therefore I am now takin" Great Britain. The number of persons sentenced to transportation in 1848 were 3,601 ; the number transported in the same year were 1,407 malts and 490 females, making together 1,897. In 1849, the number sentenced to transporta- tion v.ere 3,218, and the number transported 1,620, of whom 1,243 were males, and 377 females. Then, in 1850, there were 3,176 sentenced to trans- portation ; 2,105 males were transported, and 360 females, making altogether 2,465. In 1851, there were 3,338 sentenced to transportation, and there were transported 2,008 males and 432 females, making a total of 2,440. In 1852, which may be called the last year of the transportation system, there were 2,896 sentenced, and there were transported 2,102 males and 439 females, making together 2,541. I have had those numbers added up, and the totals make, for the five years, the number sentenced to transportation, 16,229, and the number actually transported 10,963, making a little more than two-thirds. 17. Chairman^ Looking to the number of persons sentenced to be trans ported annually, in that state of the law, and to the capacity of the only place left, namely. Western Australia, for the purpose of receiving transports, in vonr judgment did an absolute necessity arise for an alteration in the law : — Yes, I think so. It was considered, that when the number who could be trans- ported bore so small a proportion to the number who would probably be sen- tenced to transportation if the law were not altered, it would be improper to con- tinue passing a sentence which could be carried out in so few instances ; therefore it was thought that an alteration should be made, that the number of persons sentenced to transportation should be reduced, and some otlier punishment sub- stituted for it. 1 8. What were the principal objects of the Act of 1853; the Bill was proposed by the Home Oflice, was it not? — Yes. The Lord Chancellor undertook to bring it in ; it was brought into the House of Lords by the Lord Chancellor, but it was in entire concert with the Home Oflice ; the principal object was that which I have mentioned, and the mode in which it was carried out was this : the first matter, of course, was to determine upon the amount of punishment which should be substi- tuted for the different periods of transportation. The practice had been of late years this : there had been always a certain class of con\icts who could not, owinof to their health, be transported ; they were not fit for transportation, and their sen- tences were commuted by pardon after a certain period. In former times, when transportation was partially discontinued, as I have before mentioned, to Van Die- men's Land, the convicts who were kept at home might be recommended for pardons at the end of half their sentences ; a seven years' convict, who had con- ducted himself well, would probably receive a pardon at the end of three vears and a half. That had been rather varied in the beginning of 1853, and the general rule was, that a seven years' convict received a free pardon in this country, supposing that he was not in a condition to be transported, at the end of four years ; therefore it was determined to substitute for seven years' trans- portation, a term of four years' penal servitude. Then the next substituted punishment was for sentences not exceeding 10 years; that was placed at six years as the substituted punishment ; and that was founded upon the same ground of analogy to the then existing practice as to giving pardons to convicts who could not be transported. The next substituted punishment was for sentences of transportation of between 10 years and 15; that was penal servitude for not Jess than six, and not exceeding eight years ; that was substituted upon the same analogy, and also upon the notion that that would be about a fair commutation. Of course the commuted sentences previously, in cases of long terms of transportation, were not nearly so frequent as those in the case of seven years ; still there were some instances of those. The next class, I think, were terms of transportation between 0.42. A 2 15 years 4 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE B. JVadiUngtoH, 15 years and transportation for life. In the long terms of transportation, exceed- Esq. jng J 5 years, and short of transportation for life, the substituted ])unishment was penal servitude for not less than six years, and not exceeding ten. It is all set out 17 April 1856. j,i tijg ^ct . for transportation for life, penal servitude for life was substituted. There would be some persons whom the public safety would not allow you to turn loose upon the public at all ; it would be necessar}-, therefore, to keep some persons in penal servitude for the whole of their lives ; but it was supposed that if a person could with safety to the public be released, he might be released after 10 years' penal servitude ; therefore there was no intermediate term of penal servitude between 10 years and life. ig. Can you inform the Committee of the number of convicts actually under sentence of transportation at the time when this Act was passed r — Yes ; I have a return of those ; this gives the number of convicts under sentence of transpor- tation in confinement on the 30th September 1853, the Act having received the Royal Assent on the 20th August 1853. This is confined to Great Britain again, and includes those English and Scotch convicts who were at Bernmda and Gibraltar. I may mention to the Committee that Bermuda and Gibraltar are places appointed by Her Majesty for the confinement of convicts under sentence of transj)ortation out of Great Britain ; the power is given by the Transportation Act. Wliether this is by a mistake of the clerk who made it out, I do not know ; but this Return is headed. Number of Convicts under sentence of Transportation in Confinement on the 30th of September 1853: there may be some reason for his making it up to that day; proljably it is owing to the returns being quarterly: it will not be material as to the state of things at all ; the number is 9,370 males and 480 females, making a total of 9,850 ; that was the number which we had then to dispose of, remaining upon our hands under sentences passed in fonner years. 20. What ])roportion of those have been already disposed of? — This leads me to what the Committee will, perhaps, allow me to state, namely, the origin of what is called the ticket-of-leave system, because it was with reference to this accumu- lation of convicts that the system was introduced. It was su])po9ed that it would be a very serious evil indeed to set at liberty in England this large number of convicts with free pardons, and it was thought, upon great consideration, desirable at any rate that the experiment should be tried of retaining some control over them, after they were set at liberty, and it was conceived that the best mode of doing that would be by taking a power in the Bill to give them a license to be at large in the United Kingdom, revocable at the pleasure of the Crown. It was thought that the power of revoking that license, without assigning any cause whatever, at the pure pleasure of the Crown, M'oukl hang in terrorem over these unfortunate persons, and would hold out the very strongest possible inducement to them to conduct themselves properly, and to abstain from any violation of the law. Tliat power, therefore, was taken in the Act, and it was taken also for convicts under sentence of penal servitude, upon whom sentence might afterwards be passed, as it might happen that there might be cases in which it would be desirable also to let them out before the expiration of their sentence ; some upon medical grounds ; others for remarkably good conduct ; assisting in preserving order, and other matters of that sort ; grounds upon w^hich the Crown frequently extends some mitigation of punishment to prisoners. It was tliought that it might be better in sentences of penal servitude to give that mitigation in the shape of a license to be at large than in the shape of a free pardon. For that reason the power was taken in cases of penal servitude also, but not with any intention of exercising it generally in cases of penal servitude. The intention was to carry it out generally in cases of transportation, and that has been done to a very great extent. That will now lead me to the answer to the Chairman's last question, as to how many of these persons have been disposed of, and how many remain. 21. That is, of the number who Mere under sentence of transportation at the time when the Act passed ? —Yes ; of these there have been transported 1,320 males up to the present time, and no females. 22. You are speaking now of the number which you said you had u[ion your hands, as it were, under sentence of transportation at the time when this Act passed ? — Yes. 23. Of tliat number 1,320 males have been since transported, and no females ? —Yes. 24. Sir SELECT COMMITTEE ON TRANSPORTATION. 5 24. Sir J. Pakington.l Were all those 1,320 men under sentence of transpor- H. H'adilington, tation -when the Act passed : — Yes, they were those whom Ave had upon our Esq. hands at the time when the Act passed. ' 25. Mr. Henley. 1 Do you mean in this country r — In this country, and at Ber- '7 -Apn! 185G, muda and Gibraltar. 26. Those at Bermuda and Gibraltar you considered on your hands ? — Yes ; Ber- muda and Gibraltar may be considered as in this country- for the purposes of this investigation. I mentioned that they were appointed under the Transportation Act as places for the confinement of offenders under transportation. They were under exactly the same conditions as Portland and Dartmoor, and places in this country. 27. Mr. B. Denison.] Then some of those 1,320 had been sent either to Bermuda or to Gibraltar? — Yes; I do not count that as disposing of them, because they remained just as much upon our hands as those who were kept in this country, unless they were transported. 28. Mr. J. fFynne.] Arehsy ev.iv kept for life at Bermuda or Gibraltar ? — A good many die there. 29. Do they ever retain them ? — No, certainly not ; the rule would be that a convict under sentence of transportation for life sent to Bermuda, who could not be transported, would be sent back to England, probably after eight or ten years, or some such period. The number discharged under licenses, or tickets- of-leave, has been 4,873 males, and 279 females, making together 5,152. 30. Mr. B. Denison.] You mean out of that number which was on hand at the time the Act passed ? — Yes ; this is up to March last, when a return was made to the House of Lords upon that subject ; there have been some few discharged since, I beheve. We cannot exactly give the Committee the number of deaths, because we do not know the number that have taken place at Gibraltar and Ber- muda ; but Mr. Everest, of the Home Office, who is at the head of our Criminal Department, and who is a gentleman of great intelligence, has made an ajiproxima- tion to it, and he estimates the deaths at 250 males and 20 females, making 270. I am now endeavouring to give the Committee the number that have been dis- posed of in one way or another, in order that they may see the number remaining on our hands. I am accounting now for the 9,850 that we had upon our hands at the passing of the Act. This gives me G,443 males, and 299 females, making a total of 6,742 disposed of. Then deducting 6,742 from 9,850, it gives 3,108. To those I must add 179, whose licenses have been revoked, and therefore who return into the body again. 31. Sir y^. Pakitigton.~\ How many females are there amongst those? — Six; and 173 males. That gives us therefore remaining upon our hands of the old offenders 3,287 I am not, of course, saying anything of those who hare been sentenced since ; those 3,287 are yet to be disposed of. 32. Cliairman.] In the numbers which you have just given us as transported, you mean, I presume, transported to Western Australia, to the only colony open to you ? — 'Yes. 33. Can vou give the Committee any information with regard to the effects of the ticket-of-leave system, so far as it has come under your observation ? — I will give the Committee all the information that is in our possession ; 1 am afraid it will not enable them to come to a very decided conclusion upon the subject ; but I think they will find from these returns that the effect has been at least as good as any reasonable person could have anticipated, considering the nature of the off(?nders who have been discharged. The Committee are aware, no doubt, that these persons under sentence of transportation are persons who had been, most of them, two or three times previously convicted, that we knew of; they may have been convicted oftener than that, but they are almost all of them old offenders, and therefore it was highly probable, that upon being thrown back into society, a great portion of them would misconduct themselves in a very serious manner. HoMever, I am very much inclined to hope that such has not been the case. We did not at the Home Office, for the first year, send any circular to the different prisons requiring reports to be made of every person under a license who had found his way back to prison. It was thought at first that probably it would be better to leave them to themselves ; not to point them out as a distinct class, but to see how they got on ; and therefore it was not until the month of February 1855 that we sent a circular calling for reports upon that subject. Therefore I have divided my returns of the ticket-of-leave men and their offences into two 0.4..'. A 3 parts ; 6 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE II. WMidingtoii, parts ; the one before we sent out this circular calling for reports, and the other E*1- after the circular va.s sent out. The first portion therefore will embrace the time ; ■ from the j)assin,t; of the Act in 1853 to the 20th of February lb5.">, which was the 17 April 1856. j|j^(.g j,^- ^jjg circular. Up to that time we only got such information as was volun- teered to us, and therefore T dare say it was not so full as we should have got if we had sent out our circular before. .34. Mr. Adderley.~\ That comprises about a year and a half? — Yes ; up to the 20th of February 18.j5, the number of convicts discharged upon license was 2,647 ; they were discharged gradually of course ; those were all with tickets-of-leave. 35. Chab-vian^ You speak here of Great Britain r — I am speaking entirely of Great Britain ; I believe tliere have iK'on very few discharges by tickets-of-leave in Ireland, and that is another rea.son why Ireland is not included; I was informed the other day that it was only just commencing ; however that may be, there is nothing like the number in Ireland that we have here. Up to the 20th of February 1855, the nuinl)er of licenses revoked were onh' 31, of those 22 were English males, and 8 Scotch, making 30 ; and one female, English. The total number reported for miscoiuluct uj) to that time were .')C. •^6. Mr. Deedes.~[ Irrespective of the 31 ? — No, that includes the 31 ; of these 56, 39 were English males, and 16 Scotch, and one English female. Therefore, of the 56 reported, the licenses of 31 were revoked, and the others were con- victed and sentenced to terms wliicli over-rode the original sentence ; they were longer than the original sentence ; therefore, in those cases, it was unnecessary to revoke the license of course, because tlie new sentence would keep them in prison longer than the revocation of the license. 37. Sir J. Pakingto7i.] In those cases, is not the license still revoked ? — No; we never revoke a license when the new term of imprisonment extends over the original term. 38. You would not call those cases successful instances of tickets-of-leave ? — No; on the contrary, I mean to include them in the cases which have fallen back, 3q. Have not the public been rather led to believe that all those cases in which the license was not revoked were successful cases ? — If they have, undoubtedly it has been a mistake, because there is a very larue addition to be made to the revocations for the convictions. 40. Chairman.] Will you proceed with your statement r — In the second period, namely, from the issuing of our circular to the middle of March 185G, which I think is the time at which the return was made to the House of Lords, taking the total number, there were released 2,505 ; that is from the 21st of February 1855, to the 11th of IMarch 1856. Now, in that time, the number reported to us for misconduct was 391 ; of these, 148 had their licenses revoked, 21 were acquitted ; which is rather curious. 41. Mr. B. Denison.'] Acquitted of what r — Of the offence: they were tried and acquitted. 42. Lord Naas^^ Does that refer to the whole number r — Yes. 43. Sir /. Pakington.'] Xou told us that that was during the second period? — The number of persons released were gradually accumulating ; I made a stop at those who had been discharged at the end of the first period, but of course those still remained as persons liable to misconduct themselves. 44. Mr. Henley.] The 391 applied to the whole number discharged under tickets-of-leave r — Yes, they were gradually accumulating ; my reason for dividing them is, the absence of any circular calling for reports in the first period, and there being a circular in the second, from Avhich I infer that we heard of almost all those who fell back in the second period, and we did not hear of so many of those in the first ; that therefore makes a total of 447 reported for misconduct in the two periods, and 179 licenses revoked. 4.5. Mr. B. Denison.'] Will you be good enough to tell us what is the number of tickets-of-leave which have been issued in the two periods :— Five thousand one hundred and fifty-two. 46. How many have been reported in the two periods ?— Four hundred and forty-seven. 47. How many have been revoked ? — One hundred and seventy-nine. 48. How many acquitted? — Twenty-five; four in the first period, and 21 in the second. 49. Sir J. Pakington.'] Referring to the second period, 391 were reported r— Y'es. 50. One SELECT COMMITTEE ON TRANSPORTATION. 7 50. One hundred and forty-eight were revoked, and 21 were acquitted? — Yes. ^- Wcddivgion, 51. One hundred and forty-eiglit and 21 make 1G9 ; Avhat has become of the ^^'J- balance between 169 and 391 ? — The balance have been convicted, and sentenced to long periods of imprisonment ; the 447, with the exception of those acquitted, ^' •*" '^^^' will represent convicts who have fallen back. 52. Mr. olitan police courts. 98. What is the aggregate ? — The aggregate is 509 convictions in the last three months of 1855. gu. Mr. Wortlej/.] Does that include the city police courts r — No, I think not. 100. Sir J. Pakb/gton.'] I ajtjirehend that all those 509 cases, if the Criminal Justice Act had not passed, would have been tried at the metrojiolitan sessions courts? — Either at the .Middlesex Sessions, or the Central Criminal Court, or the Surrey Sessions. The Surrey Sessions we have not got the returns for. There- fore that diminishes the result, no doubt, in favour of 1855. StiU the Com- mittee will, 1 believe, think, upon the whole, that it is a very satisfactory compariscm. 101. Mr. IVortlei/.'] All those convictions, under the Criminal Justice Act, which you have given us in the metropolitan districts, are convictions for felony, are they not? — Entirely; we have confined it to that. 102. Cluiirman.'] SELECT COMiMI'ITEE OX TRANSPORTATION. ii 102. C/iairma}].^ Do you Avisli to add anything to the statement which you jj^ Waddington, have already made ujion this subject r — Yes ; I have statistics which I wisli to Esq. lav before the Committee, namely, tlie number of persons sentenced to trans- portation and penal servitude, in the tliree years 1853, 1854, and 1855. In 1853, 17 April 1856. the number sentenced to transportation was 1,864; to penal servitude, 504; making- a total of 2,.3d8. This is in England and Wales. In 1854, transporta- tions, 310 ; jienal servitude, 2,108 ; making- a total of 2,418. In 1855, transporta- tion, 325; penal servitude, 2,048; making, therefore, a total of 2,373 in 1855, ag-ainst 2 418 in 1854. 103. Mr. J3. Uenisoii.] Does this table include those who were transported at the additional number of assizes held in 1855, or have you made a deduction for that : — 'Ihis includes the Avholo. 104. Wouhl it not be necessary to deduct a certain number from that? — Cer- tainly ; in 1855 there would have to be a deduction made for tliose who were tried at the winter assizes, no doubt. We have not got the nunil)ers, and there- fore 1 am willing to take it as it stands, because it is still a ilecrease. 105. Perhaps you can get some approximation to that r — Certainly. I mention these returns jiarticularly, because 1 do not think they can be much ati'ected by the Criminal Justice Act. lot). .Mr. IVortley.'] The result is, that the numbers in 1855 and 1853 are as nearly as possilile equal? — Yes; notwithstanding the number sentenced to trans- pt)rtation and penal servitude in those additional counties, which will be in favour of 1855. Therefore, upon these returns, all that 1 took the lilierty of submitting to the Comnn'ttee as my ojiinion was, that we have no evidence upon which we can say that the change in the law has produced any serious increase of crime ; that was as far as I ventured to put it ; and by that I still abide. 107. Mr. B. Dcnison.] 'J he change in what law? — The change from transpor- tation to penal servitude. 108. Mr. Deedes.] You refer to the effect of this Act of Parliament? — Ex- actly. I was asked my opinion upon that subject, and I have stated it, and the ground upon which it rests. I do not state it with any very gi-eat confidence, but still I am unable to find any reason which would induce me to believe that that change in the law has at present produced any serious bad result. That is my decided opinion. log. .Mr. jB. Denison.'\ Is it not clear that if you make the allowance to which I liave before alluded, for the number of persons who were tried at the assizes in the additional counties in 1855, who were not so tried in 1854, that number being deducted from the 2,373 would make it appear that crime in the large offences which are tried at the assizes had decreased after 1854 and 1853 r — It would undoubtedly show a decrease. no. Chairmaii.l Have you found under the new Act any great difficulty in dealing with the case of female convicts under long sentences ? — Undoubtedly ; that is the most serious difficulty which it has presented to us. 111. Will you describe it? — Colonel .Jebb, who will be before the Committee as a witness, will state fully, and iu detail, the extreme difficulties that the directors of convict prisons have met with in dealing with those \infortunate women ; but the first great difficulty is this, that there are no means of employing them at hard labour in association. The Committee are aware that the discipline to wliich the male convicts are subjected is, first, about nine months of solitary confinement, and then associated labour upon public works; very large bodies are associated at Portland and Portsmouth, and other places ; but for females nothing of that sort has yet been discovered -, therefore it is necessary to keep them within the walls of the prison, and the difficulty, under those circumstances, of doing any good either to their minds or to their bodies is extreme. I Mill not go more fully into it, because Colonel .Jebb will describe it in detail if the Committee wish to have it: the result is, that they are accumulating in very great numbers without proper means of employing them in prison, and -svith no means of giving them a chance of retrieving- their position in society. Of course the Committee are well aware how much greater the difficulties arc in the case of a female convict than in that of a male convict ; unfortunately these female convicts are of the very worst descrip- tion, generallv the associates of practised thieves, and they almost invariably fall back into their old habits, and are returned upon our bauds before long. Now, for them transportation was an unmixed good : they very frequently retrieved their position, and led a decent and respectable life. It would be of immense iinport- 0.42. B 2 ance. 12 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE //. U'addington, ance, unclonbtccllv, if by either the establishment of a new penal colony, or in some Esq. other way, we could get an outlet for these unfortunate females. In ^Yestern Australia they cainiot be received ; it is an extremely small colony, and at present 17 April 1856. they have no means of employing them, and have declined altogether to receive them, and I ain afraid there is no prospect of their being able to do so; we have made frecjuent ai)plications to the Colonial Office to endeavour to get them to do so, but at present unsuccessfully. 112. Tlien at present there is no outlet whatever, so far as they are concerned ? — None wliatevcr. 113. Mr. Worthi/.'] At the time when transportation was abandoned to a great extent, did the old colonies object to females as much as to males, or was there any distinction ? — I am unable to answer that question ; l)iit I should a]t|)re- hend they did not. I should imagine that the great objection in the colonies was the congregating of immense masses of males without females ; I think that the females were very often thankfully received. 114. Chainnu)iJ\ Yon made a suggestion just now about establishing a new penal colonv ; have you any decided recommendation to make upon that subject? — No ; I am not sufficiently actjuainted with the state of our diiferent colonies to be able to give any opinion upon that ])oint. I believe that when Mr. Gladstone was Secretarv to the Colonies he thought of a new penal colony in North Australia, and manv other ] daces have been mentioned. The Falkland Islands have been mentioned, and by many M-itli, I believe, great approbation. However, if the Committee wish to go into that subject, some gentleman from the Colonial Office will be able to throw more light upon it than I can. 115. In your judgment is it desirable that a new penal colony or colonies should be established for both sexes ? — Tt appears to me most highly desir- able ; supposing we should lose our present outlet for males, we should then have to retain in the country all our worst offijnders, many of whom we should have to keep in jirison for life, and others we slu^dd have to discharge upon the com- munitv under circumstances which would be extremely injurious to the interests of public justice, I should think. A great number of criminals are convicted of murders who are not now executed, and murders of a very serious and frightful character; burglaries with violence, and assaults with intent to commit murder, all of which are offences of a very grievous description. These persons are sentenced to transportation for life, and if we could not send them abroad, we should have ultimatelv to discharge them all upon this country : we could hardly treat it as a sentence of imprisonment for life, and keep them imprisoned for the rest of their davs. At any rate, if we were driven to that, it would be a choice of very serious evils. 1 1 6. The Lord Advocate.'\ With resi)ect to the female portion of the convicts, has any attempt been made to provide any remedy for tlie evil Mhich you speak of in tile way of employment? — About six or nine months ago Colonel Jebb got the consent of Lord Palmerston to establish a new penitentiary at Fulham for these unhajipv feinales, in which they are kept in a sort of intermediate state before they receive tickets of leave and are sent out. The better behaved of them Avoidd be associated together, and an attempt may be made to place them under a less severe discipline than that to which they are subjected at Millbank and Brixton, which at present are the places where they are confined. ^Vhen they are collected together in numbers, it seems almost impossible to observe anything like order; the ill conduct of the hardened, who are rather numerous, ])roduces such an extremely injurious eftect upon the others, that all hopes of reformation are almost impossible. But it is hoped that in this penitentiary at Fulham, to which a few are to be taken, and associated in a lighter sort of labour before they receive their tickets of leave, may be some mitigation of the j)resent state of things ; it is only an experiment. 117. It is too recent an experiment, I suppose, for any result to be arrived at ? — Yes, it is hardly commenced ; the jjrison has only just been declared a i^rison for the reception of female convicts. iiiS. Sir J. Pa/:iu"-loii.] You have just stated to the Committee your opinion of the difficultv of continuing to keep all our worst class of convicts in England ; is that a question to which you have given much consideration r— I have given a good deal of consideration to it. 1 19. I infer from what you have just stated, that your opinion inclines to the resumption of transportation ? — If we could keep it exactly as it is, if we were sure that SELECT COMMITTEE ON TRANSPORTATION. 13 that we should always have our present outlet to Western Australia, we might H. JVaildington, possibly be able to dispose of that class of criminals which I mentioned in that ^"^" way; but my opinion most strongly tends to keeping up transportation to a April 18-6 certain extent, and, undoubtedly, I would much rather extend it than diminish it. ' ^' ^ ' 1 20. Am I to understand from that answer, that your judgment is in favour of resuming transportation, provided some eligible place for that purpose can be discovered ? — It is, most decidedly. 121. You alluded to North Australia as one of the places which had been thoutrht of for that purpose ; have you given much consideration to the question of sending transports to North Australia ? — No, I have not considered it at all; it has been so entirely a matter of colonial arrangement that I have never entered into that part of the question. 122. You have never entertained the question, how far the climate of North Australia would present an impediment to that arrangement r — No ; I under- stood from my fiicnd, Mr. Elliot, that Mr. Ghidstone had at one time deter- mined to establish a penal settlement there, but it was afterwards abandoned ; and I mentioned it for that reason. 123. You have given some evidence on the new system adopted by the IG & 17 Victoria, of substituting penal servitude for transportation; who arranged the sentences which are substituted for the various periods of transjjortation ? — The Lord Chancellor, Lord Palraerston, and myself, I think, were the principal parties. 124. This scale was drawn up in part on your advice r — Yes. 12.T. ^^'ore any of the judges, except the Lord Chancellor, consulted upon that scale ? — Not at all. 1 26. I understand you to say that four years of penal servitude were substi- tuted for seven years' transportation, on account of a practice which previously existed of giving pardons in case of good conduct to persons sentenced to seven years, but kept at home at the end of four years ? — Yes ; it was by analogy to that practice, and, of course, considering that it was a just and equitable arrange- ment. 127. The practice for a very considerable number of years, I think since the year 1841, has been to send all transports who are not suffering under bodily infirmity to the colonies, has it not? — Generally speaking it has. 128. Including tliose sentenced to seven jears' transportation ? — Certainly. 1 29. This ]iractice, therefore, of granting a free pardon at the end of four years has been conffned firstly to those who were suffering from some infirmity, and who were unfit to go abroad r — Principally to those, of late years. There was a period during, I believe, the suspension of transjjortation to ^'an Diemen's Land, when a very considerable number were retained in this country. 130. I understand you to say that this pardon was granted at the end of four years in cases where the conduct of the prisoners had been such as to merit favour- able consideration ? — Yes ; whose conduct was not bad ; it was granted as a general rule. 131. Does it not appear to you that the very fact which you have mentioned, that this pardon was granted in the case of a seven years' sentence at tlie end of four years, in consequence cither of bodily infirmity or of good conduct, rather tends to show that the four years' imprisonment was not considered as a full equivalent to seven years' transportation 1 — No, I cannot say so at all. The reason of it was, that when a prisoner was sentenced to transportation, and it could not, from some circumstances, be carried out, it was thought a fair and equitable arrangement to keep him in prison for four years. 132. Then why did you mention that this pardon at the end of four years was given in case of good conduct on the jiart of the prisoner ; what had the good conduct to do with it ■ — It was a mitigation of the sentence : it was a Royal pardon ; and the rule is, that the mitigation of the sentence, or a pardon, would not be granted to incorrigible or ill-conducted prisoners. The general rule was, to grant this miti<;ation to persons who iia■(). The dispersion of them by means of tickets-ot-leave through the colonies was, on the whole, a successful experiment, was it not ? — I have no doubt of it ; as long as there were settlers who would employ them, the greater the number of convicts the better; it was only when they could get no employment, and were congregated in large masses, that they became such a nuisance. 1 90. Then may I infer, that if it were possible now to tind a settlement in which these convicts might be congregated together, you would consider it a desirable substitute for the ticket-of-leave system, a novel experiment which has been tried in this country? — i should be very sorry that all the evils which are repm-ted to have taken place in Norfolk Island should be repeated anywhere. I am strongly opposed to forming such an institution as that, certainly. Mv notion of a penal colony is, tiiat it must be one which is created. I do not think that vou would get any established colony now which Avould be disposed to take our convicts ; that is out of the question. Therefore, what occurred to my mind was, the creation of a new penal colony, in the same manner as the Australian colonies were originally created. They were created as penal settlements. lyi. Mr. Addei'/ei/.] I do not think you stated the period at Mhich the last kind of transportation began, namely, the three several stages ? — That 1 think was in 1848. When transportation was recommenced in Van Diemen's Land, the system was remodelled In* Lord Grey and Sir George Grey, and I think that was the time when the present system was commenced, namely, solitary confinement and hard labour on public works previous to being sent abroad. ^g2. The old system had ceased after the Report of the Committee of 1838 ? — I think so. 193. What Mas generally the practice of transportation between those two periods of 1838 and 1848 ; how was the sentence of transportation carried out in that interval ? — I would rather refer you to Colonel Jebb upon that. I think tliere was a plan of Lord Derby's which was tried in ^'an Diemen's Land, by which the convicts were collected in a sort of penal establishment in large numbers until tiiey could get employment, which they sometimes succeeded in doing, and sometimes not. I am afraid that did not succeed ; but no doubt Colonel Jebb, or some gentleman from the Colonial Office, can give you the exact minutiae of it. 194. Chairman^ You stated that you came into office in 1848 r — Yes. 19.5. Therefore you are not personally acquainted with what took place before that time r — No. 196. Mr. Adderky.'] The mode of can-ying out the transportation varied so materially between the years 1848 and 1853, that it was a very dillerent sentence practically at the different periods of that time ? — Quite so. J 97. Can you state more clearly how it happens that the number which is represented in your first table as having been actually transported in the year 1848, is only 50 per cent, of those sentenced to transportation, while in the year 1852, the last year before the passing of this Act, nearly the whole 100 per cent, were transported "- — I think in 1848 transj)ortation was only very partially com- menced. It had been discontinued altogether, I think, in 1846 and 1847, and I think it was only partially recommenced in 1848. 1 think I could give you the numbers. 198. In the last period, looking to the practical mode of carrying into effect the sentence of transportation, at the time when this new punishment was substituted for it, the actual transportation from this country was a mode of sending the convict, after punishment completed, to another country, rather than a part of the penal sentence ? — Certainly ; the most penal part of transportation then was the separation. 0.42. c 2 199. But 20 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE //. tf'addington, igp. gut the penal part of the whole sentence was ended, and was practically ^^' completed at home, hefore the convict was sent to a colony ?— Certainly. If he ] ., „ - was sent out with a ticket of leave, the theory was, thai he would immediately set 17 April 185G. ... ' J ' Jo " "^ •' into service. 200. The portion of the sentence which ended in exit from England was looked ui)on as the only penal part of the sentence r — Except so far as it separated him from his native country ; and when the sentence was over he was not hroujrht back, but would have to hud his own way back, if he could do so. 201. When you recommend, if possible, the resumption of transportation, is it that last species of transportation which you recommend to be resumed in preference to the former ? — I should recommend it to be resumed, or rather to l)e extended, as it is now. I believe the present system, in preparing the transports for tickets-of- leave abroad, is a very good one. 1 fancy it has had very great success. That there lias been a marked improvement in the colonies is admitted, even by those most op])osed to transportation. The persons who have been sent out since 18t8, and particularly of late years, are quite a different class of human beings from those who were sent out under the old system. Therefore, if the system could be extended, so far as my opinion goes, I should recommend that it should be carried out as it is now. 202. Tiie kind of transportation which you would seek to resume would be with the object of affording a man who had completed his sentence here the means of earning a livelihood in a new country rather than with the object of carrying out a penal sentence with actual surveillance and restraint over the man in the colony ? — Certainly ; he would be subject to restraint, of course, in the colony by the ticket-of-leave being revoked if he misconducted himself there ; but the great object would be, in the first })lace, to get rid of him ourselves, and in the second place, to give him the opportunity, if so disposed, of becoming a decent member of society. . 203. I conclude that in all your recommendations in approbation of transpor- tation, you are looking simply to the interests of this country and of the convicts themselves ? — Yes ; I am very far indeed from supposing that we could reason- ably call upon any established colony to take them against their will. 204. Are you of opinion that the sort of criminals whom we should seek to send out are the worst? — I am. 205. In fact, the two classes whom you seek to remove out of the country are, in the first place, female criminals, and, in the second place, the worst class of male convicts ? — Decidedly. 206. Are you aware whether Western Australia, in seeking for convicts, has expressed any opinion as to the kind of convicts who ought to go out there, or whom it wishes to receive? — I have not heard any opinion expressed as to tiiat, except that they have expressed a very strong desire to have able-bodied men and skilled labourers, artisans if possible, as distinguished from agricultural labourers ; there is a very great demand for those. 207. In the last practical mode of carrying out the sentence of transportation, did it become the general practice to give pardons at the end of four years, and was any longer detention an exception : — It was ; that was in the case of a sentence for seven years. 208. Immediately preceding the passing of the Act of 1853, in the great majo- rity of instances, were those prisoners who were sentenced to seven years' trans- portation released from detention at the end of four years, and sent abroad, with the exception of those who were too weak ? — The majority of those under sen- tence of seven years were not kept here for four years ; I think not more than three. When Lord Falmerston was Secretary of State, he directed the period of solitary confinement to be diminished from a year to nine months, and that had the etlect of abridging by three months the detention in this country ; therefore I think at last the detention hardly amounted to more than three years. 209. Under what terms did the convicts generally go abroad r — Under tickets- of-leave. It was the theory that after a detention on public works, they should go abroad with tickets-of-leave. There have been cases, I believe, where there was not an immediate demand for them, and therefore the giving of tickets-of-leave has been suspended, and it has been left to the governor of the colony when the demand arose. 210. Has not there been some confusion created in the public mind by a con- fused use of the terms "ticket-of-leave," and "license to be at large"? — Yes. 211. The SELECT COMMITTEE ON TRANSPORTATION. 21 211. The ticket-of-leave, under which a man having been confined 3 5 years was H. Waidingtottf sent abroad, was a very liifferent thing in its effects from the hcence to be at large, ^**1- "which is provided for in the Act of 1853 ? — Yes, quite different, undoubtedly. ; 212. How far was a man short of being at liberty who went to a colony at the *7 ^P"' ^^56. end of 3 ^ years with a ticket-of-leave ? — His position was this : Supposing he had a ticket-of-leave granted to him, he was then at liberty to engage himself to any master, and if he misconducted himself, he was liable to have his ticket-of- leave revoked, and to be placed upon public works, or treated in any other way that theGovernment thought proper. The general practice was, that after he had conducted himself with a ticket-of-leave well for perhaps two years, he received a conditional pardon, which put him in a nmcli better situation. 213. Do you conceive, ])ractica]Iy, that there would be much use in a licence to be at large in the way of keeping up surveillance and control over a man in this country l — It has not been used at present for the purpose of keeping up a surveil- lance, but it might of course be used for that purpose, because the terms of the Act give the power to imj)ose any condition the Crown thinks ]iroper ; therefore the Crown might impose the conditions which are imposed in France of the surveil- lance of the police, and it might impose the condition upon the convict of going to a certain place, and ])resenting himself once a week, or once a month, liefore a magistrate. It might be used in that way undoubtedly, but it has not been so. 214. Do you believe that, practically, in this country it could be carried out r — I think it might to a certain extent, but I should be extremely unwilling to recom- mend it. I think the great good of the system is, that it puts the man in the first instance in the condition of a man who has served out his sentence ; he may go where he likes, and engage himself where he pleases; he has full notice of the con- sequences of misconduct, and if he does not choose to avail himself of the leniency of the Crown, it is his own fault ; there is every motive for him to do so. 2 1 5. By the Act of 1853, the Crown has the right to give him a licence to be at large at any period of time ; it may be after a week ? — Certainly. In cases where life has been endangered by the confinement, the licence has been given almost immediately afterwards. 216. As a general rule, as a reward for good conduct, in your view, what por- tion of the sentence ought to have expired before the licence to be at large is given ? — I think that the terms acted upon at present are as proper as any that I can suggest ; it is not as a reward for any remarkably good conduct ; it is a reward for the absence of misconduct ; I think that a seven years' transport, who does not misconduct himself, might be fairly entitled to a licence to be at large at the end of three years, that being the time when he would be transported with a ticket-of-leave. 217. Take the corresponding period of four years' penal servitude, how much of that do you think should have expired before a licence to be at large is given .■* — At present we do not propose to give licences to persons under penal servi- tude at all ; we consider that being released at the end of four years and be- coming a perfectly free man is about ecjuivalent to being released at the end of three years with the revocation of the licence hanging over him. A licensed man is in a very awkward jiosition in many respects ; in the first place, he is still under a sentence of felony ; he cannot jiossess any property ; any property that he may get belongs to the Crown ; so that he is by no means in a good situation when he receives his licence ; whereas a man with a sentence of four years' penal servitude, when he has gone through his sentence, is a perfectly free man, and may acquire property, and do what he likes. 218. What is the practice in dischargiug a man with a licence to be at large now; is he sent to any particular j)lace? — No, he is never sent to any j)articular place ; the general rule in those cases is to give liim a licence to be at large any where within the United Kino-dom, leaving it entirely to his own choice to go where he pleases ; in some instances, men of very bad character, who have been supposed to be still in connexion with their old associates, have been restricted from going to certain places ; we have restricted some notorious London thieves from the metropolitan district, and so in two or three other cases ; we have also restricted some in the provinces from going back to their own neighbourhoods. 219. Has there been any change in the practice in that particular? — Yes, there has been a change ; that restriction was not introduced until about three months ago. 0.42. 03 220. That 22 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE H. IVuddingion, '220. Tliat is a clianpfc which has not been tested by experience r — Yes. I am Esq. by no means certain that it is a beneficial change myself. T am rather inclined to think that, ujiou the whole, it is better to give them an luilimited range. 17 April 185G. 22 1. Mr. ISerjeant O'^rfen.] Are you able to give the Committee a similar return, as regards Ireland, to what you have given as regards Great Britain ? — No, I am nut. The Lord Lieutenant of Ireland has mentioned that he thinks it desirable tliat the whole system in Ireland should bo brought before this Com- mittee, and the Chairman of the Board of Directors will come over and give evidence upon this subject. The management of the convicts in Ireland is left entirely to the Irish Government. 2J2. Then you cannot tell us the number as respects Ireland? — lean give you the returns of the numbers sentenced, and also of the numbers transportetl. 223. You have given us returns as to Englarid for five years, namely, 1848, 1849, 1850, 18.51, and 18.52-— Yes. 2J4. Can you give us the corresponding returns for Ireland? — Yes. The number sentenced to transportation in Ireland in 1848 were 2,729, the number actually transportrd 804. In 1849 there were sentenced to trans])ortati()n .3,073, and actually transported C42. In 1N50 there were sentenced to transportation 1,858, and actually transported 588. In 1851 there were sentenced to trans- ]>ortati()n 1,978, and actuallv transported 310. In 1852 there were sentenced- to transjxirtation 1,41 1, and actually transported 570. 225. How many Mere sentenced in 1853 to transportation, and how many ta penal servitude in Ireland ? — There were 973 sentenced to transportation. I have not got those sentenced to penal servitude in Ireland. 22d. Arc you able to sug-ffest anv cause for the very large number in Ireland during the years 1848 and 1849 ; do you recollect that those were the years after the distress from the famine ? — Yes; I know that the effects of the famine in Ireland lasted a great many years afterwards. 2-27. There were sheep-stealing cases r — Yes, a great number. 228. Would that at all account for the very large number of criminals during those years? — Yes, to a very great extent. The diminution of crime in Ireland since 1848 has Ijeen something (juite unparalleled, I believe, in the history of any country ; the reduction has been enormous. 229. Can you account at all for the small jiroportion which those who were actually transported bear to the number wh) were sentenced? — I am afraid T can. The truth was, that there was very little demand for the Irish convicts ; they were of a very inferior description to the English, and were not found so available. That has been a subject of very frequent complaint ; it is mentioned in the last return of the Irish convict prisons. 230. I suppose you cannot give the number of those whose sentences were commuted ? — I cannot. It is entirely in the hands of the Irish Government; we- never interfere with the commutation of sentences in Irish cases. 231. Mr. Wortleif.'] Did I understand rightly, that according to the present determination of the Government, it is their intention, in all cases of sentences of four years' penal servitude, to detain the prisoners for the whole time ? — Yes, as a general rule, certainly. •232. Supposing there is no exception as to health or other unusual circum- stances ? — Yes ; a bad accident on public works is always considered to entitle a man to mitigation ; sometimes valuable information given to the Government is a ground of mitigation. 233. I know that a considerable embarrassment sometimes occurs in the minds of judges from not knowing what the actual effect of their sentences is ; have you any objection to state the actual course of the Government with respect to prisoners who are respectively sentenced to eight, six, or four years' penal servitude, which are the common sentences of penal servitude r — With resj)ect to four years it is clear ; they would be treated as criminals for- merly were; they would be kept nine months in solitary confinement, and the rest of the period on public works either in England, or at Bermuda, or Gibraltar ; but with respect to longer periods, no doubt, for the first four years, they would also be kept in the same way, and I suiipose they must be continued in the same way. None of those cases have arisen at present, and therefore the question of making any alteration in the mode of treating them after the four years has not arisen, and has not been considered. 234. Do you think that, to hardened criminals, such as that class which I have referred SELECT COMMITTEE ON TRANSPORTATION. 23 referred to before, a tieket-of-leave is really any boon at all ? — 'I do not know what H. Waddington, to say to that ; that will depend veiT much upon what impression their confine- ^^^- ment has made upon them, and how far they are influenced by the obvious 7 Z 7", inducement which they have to conduct themselves well. 23.5. Are not they so marked, and well known, and pursued bv the police, that it is impossible for them to obtain respectable employment r — It is very difficult, no doubt, and til at is one of the very strong reasons for wishing to continue the system of transportalion. Very often, even if men wish to reform, they have not the same chance that a person not so notorious a criminal would have. 236. Does not it very often end in this, that they are so far influenced by their punishment that they are more cautious of committing crime themselves, but that they take to teaching others ? — That would be the case with some who fell back, no doubt ; but I am inclined to hope that generally it may produce better effects than that. The fear of revocation may restrain them from committing any crime at all. It is not merely an indictable offence which occasions a revocation, but anv ofl^ence, even an offence against the Vagrant Act, which may be nothing more than their being seen with a person in the street under sus[)icious circumstances. 237. Lord Naas.] What were the two or three instances in whiclj you revoked the licence without the proof of some offence ? — One Avas where a man in Scot- land beyond all doubt had committed an offence, but could not be put upon trial from the death of a wituess ; some case of that sort where there Avas no doubt of the committal of an offence. 238. Mr. B. Denison.] Do you happen to remember whether the objection of the colonies to receive these convicts arose from the bad conduct of the convicts themselves or otherAvise ? — It arose from a great varietv of circumstances mixed together; partly no doubt from the feeling of degradation, partly from the bad conduct of the convicts about the year 1845, and very much from the increasing prosperity of the colonists, by whom it was felt as a great degradation, of course. 239. If the ticket-of-leave system appears from experience to Avork tolerably ■well in England, in your opinion, is it not likely that the opposition to receiving the convicts in the colonies would subside? — No ; I do not think it Avould affect the colonies at all. There is a very great difference between making the best you can of your OAvn conA^icts, and receiving large quantities from another quarter. 240. Mr. Addcrlei/.] Supposing the Government make up their mind to make no further use of licences to be at large, will not the sentences Avhicli have already been passed under this Act be Aery much aggraAated bv sucii a resolution on the part of the Government? — At present the Government have no intention of ap- plying licences to eases of penal servitude, except in exceptional cases ; therefore It would make no difference in cases of penal servitude. With respect to cases of transportation, it Avould be the greatest possible hardship if the system of licences were rcAoked, and nothing similar substituted for it. I presume that if the system of licences Avere discontinued, persons under sentence of transportation Avho could not be transported, Avould, as before, be released in due time upon a free pardon. 241. Have not the judges stated, at the time of passing sentence, that the prisoners might, as an encouragement to good conduct, receive licences? — Some have ; it was a mistake, undoubtedly ; it has not been frequent. There have been some such cases, I believe, and it has excited hopes, no doubt, in the convict to wliom it has been addressed. 242. HaAe any sentences been mitigated since ? — A great many sentences have been mitigated, not owing to representations held out to the convict, but owing to a mistake on the part of a learned Recorder ; a natural mistake, for Avhich 1 am sure I do not blame liiin at all ; he passed very extreme sentences of penal servitude in many cases, under the impression that the prisoners Avould have tickets-of- leave, and upon finding that such was not the case, he A'ery ]>roperIy wrote to Sir George Grey, to beg that the sentences might be mitigated, and that has been done ; but those were entirely exceptional cases, owing to a misapprehension of the learned judge. 243. Lord A^rtrts.] HaAe the Home Office made any eflfort to follow these ticket-of-leave men, and to find out their course of life generally ? — None at all ; it was thought far better to give no directions AvhatcA-er to the police upon the subject, but to leave them precisely in the situation of men Avho had served out the whole period of their sentence. 244. Do you think it Avould not be possible, Avithout subjecting them to a certain amount of surveillance, Avhich would be objectionable, to find out what 0.42. c 4 was 24 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE H. Waddington, ^«is tlieir course of life ?— It would not be very easy, I think ; we could only do Esq. it throu<^h the xnt.'ans of the police, and of course where the watching of the j)olice is rcMjuired, that is, to a certain extent, a surveillance, which is observed by other 17 April i8;,C. persons, and which makes the j)erson watched a marked man. We have received a ^reat deal of voluntary information upon the subject, of course, from the heads of the police of different jdaces, not only of men who had misconducted themselves, but of men who were likely to do so. 245. Have you had any information of a more satisfactory character from the police that these men are going on well ? — Colonel Jebb has had the information uj)on that subject, 'i'hey write generally to the chajjlains. There is a great deal of correspondence with these men after they are released, and I believe Colonel Jebb will be able to give the Committee a good deal of information upon that subject. 246. Then the chaplains of the Government prisons have been in the habit of keeping up some connnunication with them ? — Yes, they have. 247. Mr. Adderlei/.] Do you i)erceivo no danger of an arbitrar}' and almost tyrannical treatment in the discretionary power of revoking licences? — It is a very large power, I must admit. Like all other arbitrary jjowers, it may be abused, certainly. I hope it will never be abused. It is necessary to exercise the power very strictly indeed, for the protection of the public. If it were not so, the whole advantage of the licence would be at an end ; but I quite agree that it is a power of an arbitrary description. 248. CJiairmait.] \o\i stated, in answer to the Right Honourable Baronet, that in yoin- opinion the j)resc'nt Act might be imjjrovcd in one particular; with regard to the minimum period of penal servitude, you suggested three years, I think, instead of four ? — Yes ; I rather qualified tiiat oj)inion ; I said that if it was thought tliat the system of granting licences to be at largo had not turned out a failure, if it was thought to be successful, I then considered that it might be extended to cases of penal servitude, and then I should recommend that the sentence of penal servitude should be changed, and that it should be not exceeding five years, and not less than three, which, I think, would be an im- provement. 249. Is there any other point in which, from your observation and experience, you would suggest to this Connnittec that the Act is capable of improvement ? — It has struck me that if the sentences of transportation which are now passed should not become larger in number than they are at present, and if we should retain our outlet to Western Australia, it will be necessary to make some change in the law, in order to secure a sufficient number of convicts under sentence of transpor- tation ; I think that if it were ascertained that that was necessary, the only way to do it woulrl be to return to transportation for 10 years ; that would give us an additional number of convicts under sentence of traus])ortation of from 800 to 1,000 every year; say 1,000 ; then taking away from that number one-fifth for the females who could not be sent to Western Australia, that would leave 800 ; and taking away from that again one-third unfit for transportation, it would just about give us the number we want, sujjposi ng that there is no other change in the law. Tlurefore I confess that I think it would be a matter for the consideration of the Committee whether, under present circum- stances, we might not be in a condition to return to transportation for 10 years. 250. Have you any other suggestion to make with regard to the subject of our inquiry ? — No, there is no other suggestion which I have at present to make. SELECT COMMITTEE ON TRANSPORTATION. 25 Luna, 21* die Aprilis, 1856. MEMBERS PRESENT. Mr. Baines. Sir John Pakington. Lord Naas. Mr. Adderley. Mr. Wickliam. Mr. Jolin Wynne. Mr, Mnssey. Mr. Beckett Denisoii. Mr. Deedts. Mr. Seymour Fitzgerald. Mr Monckton Miines. The Right Hon. MATTHEW TALBOT BAINES, in the Chair. Horatio Waddington, Esq., called in ; and further Examined. 251. Chairman.'] HAVE you with you a comparative statement of the number h. Waddington, of persons sentenced to transjiortation and penal servitude in tiie years 1853, 1854, Esq. and 1855? — Yes; I had the honour to hand in to the Committee on Thursday a ; statement of the actual numbers, which is now in evidence, and it was then sug- ^^ ^P"^ '^5"- gested by the Honourable Member for the West Hiding of Yorkshire, tliat in order to make it perfectly correct, the Committee should have an exact comparative idea of the numbers sentenced in those three years. The return for 1855 should be corrected by deducting those who were tried at the winter assize in that year, and sentenced to penal servitude and transportation, there having been no winter assize held in either of the preceding years ; that is to say, for 22 counties ; there was such an assize held in all the three years for York and for Lancaster, but in 1855 there were 22 other counties added, in which there was no such assize in the two previous years; therefore, of course, it would be unfair to the year 1855, in comparing ihe three together, to add to the number in 1855 those sentenced at that winter assize coming from those 22 counties. 1 have, therefore, deducted them now from the number of those sentenced to transportation and penal servi- tude in 1855, and the deductions are 25 sentenced to transportation and 5G sen- tenced to penal servitude, making a deduction of 81 ; that makes the comparative numbers for the year 1853, 2,368 ; for 1854, 2,418 ; and for 1855, 2,202 ; making therefore a considerable diminution upon 1854, and a slight diminution upon 1853. 252. Will you now hand in the table? — {llie I fitness delivered in the same.) r/rfir Appeudijt. 253. Mr. B. Venison.'] This diminution of 12G between 1854 and 1853 is upon the graver offences which were tried at the assizes ? — It is upon persons wherever tried, whether at assizes or sessions, sentenced to penal servitude and transporta- tion ; therefore no doubt they were the graver ofl'ences. 254. Chairman.] Have you any further information with you which you think would be of service to this inquiry? — Yes. Since I had the honour of being- examined before, I have obtained returns from Ireland, stating tb.e number of prisoners under sentence of transportation at the time of the change of the law, who have since been discharged in that country. This return extends from the 1st of September 1853 to the lOth of April 185G ; therefore it extends somewhat later than the returns which I have before given, and it gives of male convicts discharged with free pardons 1,149; of females discharged witli free pardims 21, making 1,170; to those nmst be added 371 male convicts who Jiave returned to Ireland from Bermuda and Gibraltar ; those are upon pardons. Then the next table is the number discharged upon licence, which, as I had the honour to men- tion to the Committee, was extremely small, amounting to 20 males and nine females in all, up to the 10th of April 1856. I will also hand in these tables, if the Committee will allow me. {The Witness delivered in the same.) Vide Appendix. 2.5 "i. Lord iVrt«*.] Can you tell the Committee the number of convicts in Ireland during that period ? — I cannot ; I have not got those returns ; but that could be very easily obtained. 2.56. You say that 371 returned from Bermuda and Gibraltar in tliat time ? —Yes. 257. Can you tell how many returned to England from Bermuda and Ciil)niltar in the same time ? — That I can obtain very easily. 2.58. Chairman.] Will you be so kind as to do so? — Yes, I am not sure whether that is or not contained in the return which I have handed in. 0.42. D 2,59. i\Ir. 26 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE H. Waddington, 250. "Sir. S. Fitzgerald.] Were those 371 who returm'il juisoners whose sen- Es']. teuces had expired ? — Tliey had worked out the portion Mhieh was supposed to ^ entitle them to a free pardon, if not transported; they had not worked out tlicir 21 April 1856. full sentences. 260. Those were the prisoners who had returned from Bermuda and Gibraltar r — Yes. 261. You send none there except those wlio are under sentence of transporta- tion ? — None formerly, but we have of late sent males under sentence of penal servitude. 2t)2. For long periods? — For long periods. The Act enables us to do that; it puts persons under sentence of penal servitude under all the statutes which govern the treatment of persons under sentence of transjiortation. 263. '1 hen none of the 371 were di^^charged with tickets-of-leave r — None; at least 1 believe not. It is not stated whether any of them formed a portion of the 20, but I should tliink not. in all probability. There were only 20 discharged in Ireland upon tickets-of-leave altogether. 264. llave any of those returned from Bermuda or Gibraltar been discharged to Ireland upon tickets-of-leave ? — No, I jircsunie not. This is the whole number of tickets which have been granted in Ireland to any convicts whatever. 265. Chairman.] Have you any other document or any further information to give to the Committee? — No : there were tv^o documents which are no doubt of great importance, asked for by two Members of tlic Committee, which I will endeavour to procure. One was the number of persons discharged under tickets- of-leave, reported for misconduct, who formed a jiortiou of tliose released in the first period. It will require a great deal of trouble to procure it, but I have no doubt we can do it in time. We must go through the nominal list and compare them all : 1)nt that return I will endeavour to get. The second document was a return for the year 1S54, of all the jtersons convicted who had been previously under sentence of transportation, or of long terms of imprisonment ; that we will endeavour to get. AA'e must write a circular to all the gaolers ; but we will obtain the information as far as we can. 266. You hope to be able to put those documents in at a later stage of the inquiry? — I will do so, as soon as we get them ; I am afraid the latter will be veiy imperfect, because the gaolers will only give us a portion ; I am afraid many will have escaped notice. Thomas Frederick Elliot, Esq., called in; and Examined. T. F. Elliot, Esq. 26-. Chairman.] WHAT office do you hold r— I am Assistant Under Secretar}- of State in the Colonial Department. 268. Have you had opportunities of becoming acquainted with the subject of transportation? — I received my appointment in 1S47, and I have ever since had direct charge of all correspondence on transportation ; that is, for about nine years. Early in life I had a good deal to do with correspondence with Australia, and after a short service in Canada, I was head of the Emigration Department, and sent about 40,000 or 50,000 emigrants to Australia. I have, therefore, long taken an interest in Australian affairs. 269. About how many years was transportation adopted l)y this country as a principal means of secondary punishment .' — As a princijial means since the cre- ation of the Australian colonies ; there was previously, as is doubtless well known to the Committee, an irregular sort of banishment to North .America. It was a very anomalous and very limited proceeding; the people were sent out in a kind of slavery, being able to redeem their liberty by labour. But New South Wales was founded about the year 1784, and then transportation began as a regular means of secondary punishment. 270. New South ^A'ales was founded, I believe, as a colony expressly for the reception of offenders ? — Exclusively for the reception of offenders. Van Diemen's Land was founded not long afterwards, and divided the reception of convicts with New South AVales. 271. Was that founded also expressly as a colony for the reception of convicts? — Expressly as a colony for the reception of convicts. 272. Do you remember the Select Committee of the House of Commons ap- pointed to consider the subject of transportation in the year 1837, who sat in that vear and the following year 1838, called Sir William Molesworth's Committee ? -I do; SELECT COMMITTEE ON TRANSPORTATION. 27 — I do : that Committee would probably afford the best starting^ point for ai;y one T. F. Elliot, Esq. who wishes to stmly the history of this subject. Their Report is a monument of industry and of svstenuitic inquiry. At the time, it was supposed that the Chair- n April 1856. man and the more influential meniljers had a strong jjreconccived opinion against transjiortation ; and it appears singular enough now, when we hear all the colonies complaining of receiving convicts, tliut the first eH(3ctin Australia w;j& great annoy- ance at seeing the tLi-ms in which transportation was described in that Report. 273. I believe the Report was decidedly unfavourable to the continuance of transportation as a punishment ?— Decidedly unfavourable. The system which prevailed at that time in Australia was what was called the system of assignment. It had some considerable advantages ; the convicts used to be assigned to private masters, and the n suit was, that they were dispersed all over the country in small parties; they came under a sort of domestic discipline and formed part of a regular liousehold. These influences were very favourable, but the drawback was, that in the hands of tyrannical masters the system might be very oppressive, and that other master-; went to the opposite extreme; they tried to bribe the convict, so to speak, to do more work by undue indulgence ; the Committee therefore con- demned the practice as very unequal, and open to great abuses. 274 1 think you say that that opinion so expressed by the Committee, and rej)orted by them to the House, did not at first meet with concurrence in the Australian colonies themselves? — It by no means met with immediate concurience. All the principal authorities, not merely executive but legislative, complained of the account given of the state of the colonies ; they said that the picture was overcharged and jjartial. By degrees, however, the number of free people grew greater and greater in those colonies, and they began to look uj.on the reception of convicts as a stigma and a taint, and were much more warm against transj)ort- ation than anyone in England. 27.5. What measures were adopted by the Government of this country in consequence of that Report r — The Government at home were immediately influ- enced to a great extent by the Report. They took measures to increase the penitentiaries; Pentonville was built in consequence of the Report of that Conunittee ; they increased the number of people sent to Bermuda to be kept at hard labour ; they commenced sending convicts to Gibraltar, and not long after- wards, in the year 1840, they discontinued transportation to New South Wales altogether. 1 ought to explain, that some years after transportation, properly so called, to New South Wales was discontinued, there was a qualified transportation of men called exiles ; they were no longer in the convict condition, they were par- doned men, sent out to spend the resc of their days in New South Wales. This lasted but for a short time, and the numbers were not large. 276. Can you state in what year that took place? — To the best of my recollec- tion it was about 1846. 277. Why w^as it discontinued : — I think that the growing dissatisfaction of the colonists in New South Wales led to the discontinuance even of that limited transportation. 278. And it finally ceased even in its qualified shape at that time? — It did. 279. Mr. B. Dcnison.'] In what year - — About 1S48. 280. Mr. Adderley-I What was its commencing date? — I apprehend it lasted but two yeai's; about 1847 and 1848. 281. Cludrman.'] What number of persons were sent out under the exile system ? — About 2,000 ; I see by a return I have, that it was a little later than I thought; it was in 1849 that it finally ended. 282. Will you give us a summary of the different measures that were taken with regard to the colony of New South Wales, as consequent upon the Report of the transportation Conunittee of 1837? — After the immediate measures which I have already described of increasing the number of convicts sent to Bermuda and Gibraltar, and of building Pentonville, and discontinuing transportation to New South Wales, the next most important step taken was by the present Lord Derby, when he was Colonial Minister. 283. Mr. B. Denison.'] In what year was that? — In the year 1842. Finding that by the discontinuance of transportation to New South Wales, a nuich greater number of men than before must go to Van Diemen's Laud, Lord Derby appears to have felt that it was very important to set up as good a system of discipline as possible. A verv elaborate despatch was accordingly written out, providing for four or fi,ve successive stages of probation among these convicts until they should 0.42. D 2 be 28 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BKFORE THE T. F. Elliot, Esq. be pardoiied. Any one who refers to that despatch will see what great pains were taken on the subject ; but two occurrences defeated the success of Lord Derby's 31 April 1856. efforts ; one was, that the immense number of convicts poured into that small island, produced such a oongrefjalion of the criminal class, tliat the corruption amonfrst them became unconquerable. The other unfavorable circumstance was, that this jrreat sup]>ly of labour far outran the colonial means of emjjloyment. The reward held out to well-conducted convicts had been, that on release they would jjet ^ood employment at watjes there, and so they had done formerly, but when their lunnber was so large, nobody wanted them, and it was rather a mis- fortune to a convict to be set at large ; concurrently with this, the most terrible prevalence of unnatural crime appeared amongst these immense numbers of males sent out without women. This created a natural and a very laudable horror in the minds of the colonists, and I have no doubt that from that period we may date the great antipathy of the colonists to the continuance of transportation. 284. Sir J. Palcington.] You are speaking now of the colonists of Van Diemen's Laud ? — Yes. \Mien Lord Derby experienced these disturbing causes, he per- ceived that it was impossible to go on sending this vast number of male convicts only to Van Diemen's Land, and the exj)cdient which occurred to his mind was, to found a new penal colony. Almost innnediately before leaving office, in I think the year I84G, Lord Derby threw out the first idea of forming a penal settlement in North Australia; Mr. Gladstone succeeded to Lord Derby, he elaborated all the details of the ])lan, and intendctl to carry it into execution. 285. Chairniaii.'] AVas there any suspension of the transportation to Van Die- men's Land before 1847 r — Yes ; Mr. Gladstone's first measure on taking the seals of the Colonial Office, was to susjiend transportation to Van Diemen's Land. Whatever else might require to be done, he considered it indispensable to ])ut an end to the horrible facts of whicli lie was then receiving accounts. Transporta- tion to Van Diemen's Land was accordingly suspended for nearly two years. 286. In 1846 and 1847?— Yes. When Mr. Gladstone quitted office, Lord Grey, as Colonial Minister, in consultation with Sir George Grey, as Home Secre- tary, resolved to give up the plan of North Australia ; he considered that the project of a new penal settlement was open to insuperable objections, and he reverted to Van Diemen's Laud, meaning to send out a smaller number of prisoners. 287. Was any new system then adopted? — Yes. Under Lord Grey's adminis- tration a system was also prepared with groat pains. The jdan resolved upon by the Government at that time, and which continued in force until transportation to Van Diemen's Land ceased, was this, that every convict, without exception, should un- dergo a period of from one year to a year and a half of imjjrisonment in England ; that after that he should be kej)t for a period varying from one and a halt' to three years at labour on public works in England, or on the public works at Bernnula and Gibraltar, and that after those two preliminary stages every convict, without excep- tion, should be transj)orted to the colonies, and remain there. This was the general scheme. Then Lord Grey was exceedingly anxious to improve the discipline in Van Diemen's Land. When the number of convicts suddenly had become so large, the existing nuinber of officers was quite inadequate to keep the people in order ; great confusion ensued, and gieat abuses. Lord Grey was fortunate enough to get a very able man to go out as head of the convict establishment. Sir William Denison at that period also succeeded to be governor, and those two officers, whatever else may be thought of transportation, did certainly succeed in bringing the convicts there into excellent order. 288. Sir /. Pah'uiston^ Who was the head of the convict establishment to whom you allude? — .Mr. Hampton, the Comptroller-general of Convicts. Lord Grey and Sir George Grey also thought of another very natural expedient. A difficulty it was obvious had arisen from the overcrowding in A'an Diemen's Land. Lord Grey took all the measures in his power to persuade other colonies to take a share of the convicts. If four or five colonies had taken the same number as went to Van Diemen's Land, none of these evils that we heard of might have occurred ; but all the measures taken with that view failed. New South "Wales, although invited to receive them again, after some indecision, eventually refused to have any convicts. 289. Chairmnn.] In the year 1847, was not there a Committee of the House of Lords, who sat and reported upon this question of transportation? — Yes; there was SELECT COMMITTEE ON TRANSPORTATION. 29 was a Committee of the House of Lords, which reported very stron^jly indeed in T. F. Elliot, E»i favour of the punishment of transportation. — . 200. I beheve that Committee examined a great number of the judges, and a 21 April 185^- number of other persons whom they thought likely to throw light upon the question? — They did; and the opinion of the inajority of the judges was very strongly indeed in favour of the continuance of transportation. 291. \\ as it in consequence of the report of that Committee, among other con- siderations, that Lord Grey used those endeavours to which you are now going to call our attention, to induce the colonies to take more of those convicts ? — Undoubtedly it was ; several causes, I think, concurred in inducing Lord Grev to make those endeavours. He had this weighty report of the Committee of the House of Lords urging an attempt to save the punishment of transportation ; he had reports from the inspectors of prisons, describing great success in the new svstein of discipline at home, stating that tlie prisoners were much better conducted than they used to be ; and armed with these documents, he applied to different colonies, holding out hopes that they would find convicts not so bad as they had been, and also offering to them certain advantages if they would listen to his wishes. New South Wales, however, as I have said, after considerable doubt and difference of opinion in the colony itself, finally declined. The Governor of New Zealand reju'esentcd, that a colony of that kind, inhabited by numerous warlike aborigines, was totally unfit to receive English criminals. Some of the tropical colonies were tried ; the Mauritius and Ceylon ; but there the authorities said that no Europeans could be placed. 29-.'. Owing to the warm climate ? — Owing to the climate. The Cape of Good Hope, it must be familiar to all members of the Committee, offered a violent resistance to the reception of convicts. 203. What took place in Van Diemen's Land? — In Van Diemen's Land many of the evils from which the inhabitants had suffered had greatly abated. The dis- cipline, as I have said, had been improved, the unnatural crime at which they had been so justly shocked was certainly put down, and the number of convicts was no longer much in excess of the demand for labour. But by this time the colonists had conceived a rooted dislike to the system under which they had so much suffered, and a long controversy went on upon the advantages and effects of transportation ; but the end was, that the party opposed to it prevailed. It is important to remark that the neighbouring colonies took up the cause of Van Diemen's Land ; and New South Wales, although is was no longer directly receiving convicts, con- sidered it almost equally objectionable that they should go into the neighbouring island of Van Diemens Land. There was a great public agitation ; it became the most important political question in Australia ; a society was constituted, called the Australian League, denouncing this country for sending out its crimi- nals, and the end was, that it became apparent that without a most formidable conflict with all the Australian colonies transportation must cease. 294. Sir J. Pakii/gton.] Victoria was no less zealous, I think, in promoting that league ? — Mctoria was also prominent in promoting the league. 295. C/iairiimn.] \\ hat was the result of the whole r — The result was this, that the Government of that day, by which time Lord Derby was Prime Minister, and Sir John Pakington was Secretary of State for the Colonies, must, I presume, have felt satisfied that it was impossible to carry on this system in the face of an almost unanimous opposition in the colonies ; and there was also this other fact, which could hardly have failed to weigh with the Government, that as soon as the colonists were opposed to it, all the benefits of transj)ortalion ceased. One great advantage of the system was, that so long as the colonists would employ the con- victs, so that they had a good chance of occupation, they cost the public no more money; but when once the colonists were resolved to have nothing to do with them, the Government would have had on its hands an indefinite number of able- bodied criminals in a pauper condition, to be supported by British money. 296. I believe it was aimounced at the end of 1852, was it not, by a despatch from the Secretary of State, that transportation to Van Diemen's Land would cease henceforth ? — It was. 297. There was an Order in Council, I believe, to carry that out? — Yes. 298. When was that Order in Council issued '. — The Order in Council was passed in January 1854. 299. Sir J. Fnlcinoton.~\ You have just stated that the Order in Council putting a final end to transportation, was not issued till January 1854. The 0.4,1. D 3 Secretary 30 MINUTES OF FA'IDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE T. F. Elliot Esq. Secretary of State's despatch, announcing the intention of putting an end to ' transportation, was written and sent in December 1852? — Yes. 21 April 1856. ,3cio. 1 presume that the delay which took ])lacc between the writing of the despatch and tiie issuing of the Order in Council, arose from tlie necessity of bringing the change into gradual ojieration, and awaiting the legislation whicli took ]ihice in the Session of 18.53? — I think that the revocation of tlie original order was omitted merely because it was a jiermissive order, and no particular inijiortance was attached to revoking it. 301. Considering the fact that the Act of Parliament which sid)stituted penal servitude lor transportation did not receive the Royal Assent till August 185.3, supposing that the Order in Council, putting an end to transportation, had been issued in .lanuary 1 853. would not great inconvenience have arisen during the intervening time in disj)osing of convicts ? — That might have occurred. 302. Is it not a fact, that notwithstanding the announced intention of the Government to ])ut a stoji to transportation, it was necessary to send transports abroad during the year 1853? — None to Van Diemen's Land. 303. Were none at all sent to Van Diemen's Land ? — None. 304. Not during the year 1853? — No. That desjiatch very prudently would not make a positive pledge that transportation should instantly cease, but the Government was, in fact, able to dispense with transporting any more. 30,5. Lord Kaas.] Then for all practical pur])oses, transjiortation to Van Diemens Land ceased upon the writing of Sir John Pakington's despatch r — It did. 306. Sir J. Pakiji'j^to?!.] Then I i)resume that those transports which it was found necessary to send abroad during the year 1853, were sent to Western Australia ? — They were. 307. Chairman.'] That question introduces the subject of Western Australia ; Western Australia, as I understand you, became, after December 1852, practically the only settlement open for trans]iorted offenders ? — That is the case. • 308. Can you give the Committee any information with regard to Western Australia; was it in a flourishing state at that time, at the end of 1852? — No, it was not. About the year 1850 the population of Western Australia, impressed probably with the stagnant condition in which they found themselves, coniinired with other Australian colonies, had applied to the Government to send them convicts; this colony alone of all the British colonies was desirous to have convicts. 309. What sort of climate has it? — The climate of Western Australia is ex- ceedingly i>ood. 310. What is the soil? — The soil is not so good, especially in situations near the sea, and there is, unfortunately, a great want of good harbours. These facts combined with an exceedingly injudicious plan on which the colony was originally settled, had caused it very much to languish, and hence, doubtless, the readiness of the inhabitants to receive a supply of convict labour, and perhaps also, to enjoy the indirect advantages of a very large Government expenditure. 311. Can you state what was the number of European inhabitants in the colony of Western Australia in 1850 ? — It contained less than 6,000 European inhabit- ants, including men, women, and children. 312. That was about 20 years after the formation of the original settlement, was it not ? — Yes. 313. Was it in 1849 and 1850 that Western Australia applied to the Govern- ment of this country to send convicts to that colony ? — It was. 314. What was the kind of representation which came ; was it pretty unani- mous ? — Yes ; there were no dissentients who made their sentiments known ; it was the unanimous desire of those who took an interest in public affairs. 315. Both from resident colonists and persons connected with them in this country r — From both. 316. Was the wish thus expressed asseiited to on the part of the Government? — The wish was assented to ; a small party of convicts was dispatched immedi- ately. 317. What was the date of the first dispatch of convicts ?— The end of the year 1850. To prevent mistakes, it may be well just to explain that a very few juvenile offenders had been sent to Western Australia in previous years ; but as this was not transportation of adult males, and is not connected with the question more immediately under inquiry, I do not now refer to them. 318. Can SELECT COMMITTEE ON TRANSPORTATION. 31 318. Can you give the Committee a statement of the numbers sent year by T. F. Elliot, Esq, year since 1850? — The number sent in the year 1850, was 384. 319. Is that from Great Britain? — Yes. 21 April 185C. 320. Were any sent from Ireland ? — None ; in 1851 , 878 were sent from Great Britain. 321. Were any sent from Ireland in that year? — None from Ireland ; in 1852, 442 were sent from Great Britain. 322. These are all to Western Australia ? — Yes. 323. Were any sent from Ireland ? — None, in that year. 324. What was the immber for 1853? — In 1853, 600 were sent from Great Britain ; from Ireland 592 ; the total being 1,192. y2^. In the year 1854, how many were sent ? — In 1854, from Great Britain, 280. 326. Were any sent from Ireland? — None from Ireland; in 1855, there were 485 from Great Britain. 327. Any from Ireland? — No. 328. Have any gone this year? — This year there is a small party of 250 who have gone. 329. From Great Britain? — From Great Britain. 330. What is the aggregate number from Great Britain since the year 1850, who have gone to Western Australia ? — The whole number that have gone is 3,31 9. 331. What is the total sent from Ireland ? — Five hundred and ninety-tMO. 332. And what is the gross total? — Three thousand nine hundred and eleven. 333. That represents the number since the first sending of convicts in 1850 down to the present year? — It does. 334. And including some in January of the present year? — Yes, including 250 sent this year. 335. Do you know the present population of Western Australia? — We have no accurate return, but I am sorry to say we know that the free population has not increased by any immigration, except that sent in by means of Government funds. 336. Sir J. Pakbujton.'] When you speak of Government funds, what fund do you refer to? — Funds voted by Parliament for sending free people to any colonies which will receive convicts. 337. You do not refer to anv arrangement under the Australian land svstem ? — No. 338. Cha'irma)}.^ With these convicts, have there been sent out a considerable number of the military pensioners to serve as guards on the voyage, and as the means of protection in the colony ? — Yes, a considerable number. 339. What number? — The pensioners and their families jointly, have amounted to 1,476 people. 340. Has a company of sappers and miners also been sent, both as a military guard and as superintendents and instructors upon the public works ? — That is the fact ; but some of those sappers will perhaps return to this country. 341. How many were they ? — A company of 100 were sent out; the married men are to remain, the sijigle men will be brought home. 34:2. In what manner were the convicts received at first in Western Australia? — Their arrival was very welcome, and up to the present time, the only comjilaint I have heard of is, that Ave do not send convicts fast enough. But this representa- tion requires to be a little scrutinised ; we have found that the colonial settlers are not able to employ convicts as fast as we set them free; we have had many convicts who were entitled to their freedom, but to whom we were obliged to give employ- ment, because otherwise they would have starved. Again, the Government promised to send free labourers to any colony which would receive convicts. To colonies, such as New South Wales and Van Diemen's Land, that would h.ave been a great boon, because ihey were in great want of labour, and these free people would have been readily employed. In Western Australia, on the con- trary, several of the free people, healthy and of good character, long remained chargeable to the public; the consequence is, that the Government has been obliged for a time somewhat to slacken the speed of the free emigration ; we could not take people of good character and strong bodily health from this country, and send them to the antipodes that they might become paupers. 343. Generally speaking, what has been the conduct of the convicts sent to Western Australia? — Their conduct has in the main been unexceptionable. 344. What has been the nature of the employment generally which has been 0.42. D 4 assigned 33 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE J. F. Elliot, Es((. assigned to them r — The first object was to build a proper prison for their own accommodation ; they have also been employed in constructing new landing-places ; 21 April 1856. some of tliciii have been used in making roads. Tiie wish of the Government is, that eventually they should be as much as possible em])loyed on jiublic works which will conduce to the prosperity of the colony, but at the outset of course they had to attend to their own accommodation. 345. Are a considerable number of them in private service? — Yes, a consider- able number are now in private service ; but still it is quite evident from the facts I have submitted to the Committee, that we might very easily overdo the number sent, so as to create a great embarrassment in Western Australia. 346. Have you any notion how many ticket-of-leave men are employed at service? — Upwards of 1,000 tieket-of-leave men are employed at service. 347. Have you any statement to show the increase of revenue and trade in the colony of Western Australia since convicts began to be received there r — Yes, I can sup])ly such a statement. In the year before convicts were sent, namely, in 1849, the' colonial revenue was 0,600/. In the year 1854 it was 33,600/. The imports in the first vear, namely, 1849, were 28,500/. ; in 1854, 128,200 /. The exports in 1849 were 20,100/. ; in 18.54 they were 34,100/. 348. Sir/. Pakingtoii.\ What were those exports? — Timber, some wool and some lead, fish and oil, and jirobably some horses. But what will doubtless not have escaped the attention of the Committee is this, tliat the exports are the true measure of the improvement in the colony, and that the increase in the exports has been very small ; the increase in the imports may very likely be attributable to a great extent to the large imports wanted for the use of the establishments for the convicts. I am afraid that the increase in revenue and in imports is rather a fallacious test of })ros])erity. 349. Chairman.'] With regard to those two yearS; 1849 aTid 1854, have you the means of stating the population in each of those years ? — I do not think I have. I will endeavour to ascertain whether we have returns. The material fact, which we know indirectly, is tliat there has been hardly any influx of free settlers except those sent in by aid from public funds. 350. Are you able to explain that in any way r — Yes, I think it is not difficult to account for it. When the inhabitants applied for convicts to be sent to ^^'estern Australia, it might not unreasonably have been hoped that by an abundant supjily of cheap labour, and also the advantage of a great demand for produce, the colony would have become attractive, and that settlers of capital would have entered' ; in short, it might have been hoped that something would have hapjiened resembling more or less what did take place in former years in New South AVaies and Van Diemen's Land; but scarcely had the Govern- ment given its consent to send convicts to Western Australia, when gold was discovered in New South Wales. The moment that this took place, no man of enterprise or capital who was going to Australia would think of proceeding to a languishing settlement on the Western Coast ; he rather went to Eastern Australia, and consequently Western Australia has made but little progress. 3,51. Mr. B. Denisu/i.] Can you tell us how they have paid for the excess of imports over exports? — I should be afraid that a great deal of British money has been spent in buying articles for the convicts. It has been necessary even to import food for the convicts. 352. Chairman.'] You stated the whole number of convicts which had been sent into the colony, as 3,911 since the first sending? — Yes. 353. Have you a statement of the number of free persons who have been sent by public aid ? — Yes. The number of free people, men, women, and cliildren. Bent by public aid, has been 2,310 private emigrants, and 1,476 pensioners and their families ; making a total of 3,786. 354. Was there any intermission in the supply? — The dispatch of private emigrants was interrupted in consequence of hearing that so many of them had been unable to find employment. 3.5.5. Did a great many of them, in point of fact, become burdens upon the public there, being unable to support themselves ? — They did for a certain time. In 1854, no less than 2,500/., in round numbers, was expended in the support of emigrants who had become burtliensome to the public. 356. Can you give the Committee a statement as to the cost of the establishment in Western Australia? — It has been very large. In the five years ending 1855 the amount of money voted by Parliament has been 322,525 /. For this siun the country SELECT COMMITTEE ON TRANSPORTATION. 33 country has got rid of 3,900 convicts. This is irrespective of the charge for x. p_ Elliot, Esq. transports, which, for taking tliat number of convicts, accompanied by their guards, . L - can certainly not fall sliort of 80,000 /. 21 April 1856. .357. Sir J. Pakington.'] That amounts to how much per annum on the average ? — It is a])out 80,000/. a year ; the average per head is very large; it is upwards of 100 I. per man. 3.i8. }At. Adder U-y.'] May we suppose that 400,000/. covers all the expense incurred by this country? — It is a rough calculation. 350. Sir /. Piihingto)!.] "What do you include in the colonial portion of that e.xpenditure ? — The expenditure I have now mentioned has been wholly British money, voted by Parliament. 360. What is included in the portion of that money which is expemled in the colony; Mhat items of expense: — First, the salaries of the officers, the cost of the buildings which are to accommodate the convicts, the cost of formin"- roads, especially those leading to the new convict public works; and also, an important item, the sum which it is necessary to spend in finding employment for ticket-of- leave men, who in so small a colony cannot find private masters. 3(5 1 . Is the governor's salary included? — No; the governor's salarv is voted separately by Parliament, amongst a long list of colonial governors in the Colonial Estimates. 362. Chairman.^ Can you give the Committee any information with reo-ard to the difficulty now experienced in obtaining a sufficient supply of convicts of the kind wanted for this colony, and intended for transportation ? — At first sight it appears remarkable, that when ^\e have all been so anxious to find an outlet for convicts, we have the inhabitants of Western Australia lamenting that thev do not receive more convicts, and yet that the departments in this country are unable to find more to send. The explanation is, first, that the number sentenced is so much reduced, and next, that you can only send one description of convicts so great a distance. You ought to send a man who has a certain period of his term still • to serve ; otherwise it is not worth while to go to so great an expense ; and he ought to be in good health, and capable of some special employment. Now, when all these conditions are put together, it has turned out to be difficult to find a sufficient supply for the wants of the colony. i^(^-;^. Mr. B. Den}son.~\ You mean a sufficient supply of such men as would be acceptable to thera ? — As would be acceptable to them, or as it would be any advantage to this country to send ; because, if you send a convict who is sickly, or if you send a convict who turns out a lunatic, which often happens, the colony justly says that Great Britain is bound to take care of him, and to pay for his maintenance. 3t)4. ^\y. Adder ley.'] Or a pauper either? — Or a pauper eithei-. The rule followed with respect to paupers has been, that if a convict at the time of arriving in the colony Avas, either from his state of mind or body, unfit to earn his own livelihood, or if he was so unfit at the time of being discharged, then Great Britain ought to bear the expense of his maintenance ; but if he has once become at large in the colony, and has been earning his own livelihood, and eventually becomes a pauper, the colony pays for his subsistence. 365. Chainnaii.] Do you know what the number of persons sentenced to trans- portation in the year 1854 was for the whole of the United Kingdom? — One less than 400. 366. Out of that number, could you by any possibility obtain the number of fit convicts for the purposes of Western Australia ? — It is quite obvious that it is impossible, and the other explanations which I ottered before refer to the large accumulated number which we have of convicts formerly sentenced to trans- portation. 3()7. Is there any further information which you have to give with regard to Western Australia which you think will be useful to this Committee? — I think that the questions of the Committee have elicited all the main points of interest connected with that colony. 368. Is there a place called Moreton Bay, with regard to which some sug- gestion has been made that it might be used as a settlement for convicts ? — Yes ; Moreton Bay is a northern district of New South ^A'ales, and after transportation to New South Wales had ceased at the wish of the people, a large portion of the iidiabitants of Moreton Bay regretted the decision, and asked that convicts might be sent to their part of the country. It would be legally impossible to do this, so long as Moreton Bay forms part of the Government of New South Wales, because 0.42. E the 34 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE T. F. ElMot, Esq. the order allowing transportation to that colony has been revoked. The next question agitated was whether Moreton Bay should be separated from New South 21 April 1856. Wales, in order to admit of its receiving convicts. This allows of a good deal of difl'erence of opinion. 369. Have you turned your attention to the subject of the expediency of forming a new penal settlement ? — Yes, I have thought a good deal upon that subject. 370. Are you aware that Mr. Waddington expressed an opinion u])on that sub- ject on Thursday last r — I was not aware that Mr. Waddington had expressed an oj,>inion upon it. * 371. Can you give the Committee any information or suggestions with regard to that question ? — I have arrived at a conclusion, which I am afraid can hardly be palatable at first in England ; but I am clearly of opinion that it is impossible to form a good new penal settlement. The evidence which I have just submitted to the Committee about Western Australia, may probably have produced the im- pression that even there, with all the advantages of 20 years' previous settlement, and of having a free jiopulation, althouoh a small one, our experiment has been anything but successful ; the establishment has been enormously costly in pro- portion to the relief which this country has enjoyed. But all tliese difficulties would be far greater in an entirely new country. In the first place, I am at a loss, as a question of geography, to think of any unoccupied territory that is well fitted for the reception of Euroj)ean convicts. In the next phice there is this difficulty, that if there be any large free population, we have now learned by experience that they will not consent to receive our criminals for us -, if there be none, it seems to me that we should be having a rejjctition of Norfolk Island on a large scale. When I hear it suggested that we should send our convicts to the Gulf of Carpentaria, I cannot but remember that at the end of five or six years you would have 20,000 or 30,000 English male criminals tliere, men becoming free by • lapse of time, and men whom, even if physically possible, you could not lawfully force to stop there ; they would have a right to ])ossess their own schooners, and they would have passing almost in sight of them a trade of immense value, which goes through Torres Straits. It seems to me that we should be creating a nest of ])irates. Moreover, if any one looks to the history of Norfolk Island and the frightful evils which occurred there, from having convicts and no one else, this also, I think, must rather alarm him. When the foundation of North Australia was contemplated, these difficulties were, of course, not wholly overlooked. One obvious dithculty is alluded to in the despatches, Aviitten at that time, namely, the want of women. The proposal was to cure that defect by giving them the indulgence of send- ing them all the female convicts of this country. Now, the female convicts of this country are very small in number compared with the male ; but there is no one who has been at all conversant with the history of convicts in Australia but must be quite well aware that the influence of female convicts is wholly valueless upon male convicts ; women of depraved character do them no good whatsoever ; nor is it surjirising. I have happened to watch the formation of a good many new colonies ; I do not know that any one yet has been formed for much less than half a million sterling; I am afraid that we should find it prodigiously expensive to found this proposed new penal settlement in any ])art of Australia. I must likewise not forget to mention, that after all, the gold fields are not so very far off, and that when these men cease to be in bondage, such of them as might not take to fearful mal- practices in the Eastern Archipelago and off the Northern coast of New Holland, would undoubtedly find their way from North Australia to the neighbouring gold fields. For these reasons, with great regret I do not believe that a new penal set- tlement would extricate us from our difficulty. 372. You have mentioned two places in the course of your evidence, Bermuda and Gibraltar ; they, I believe, are not places of transportation properly so called, but rather places for placing convicts at hard labour ; is not that so f — They are. 373. Like our English convict prisons and public works 1 — Quite so. 374. About what is the number of prisoners at Bermuda ? — The number at present is about 1,200. 37.5. And at Gibraltar ? — The average number is about 800; great endeavours have been made within the last year or two to improve the discipline at Bermuda and Gibraltar, and to assimilate the establishments there to the improved prison establishments at home. 376. Have you any information which you can give the Committee with respect to Gibraltar and Bermuda, which you think might be useful with reference to the \ . subject SELECT COMMITTEE ON TRANSPORTATION. 35 sabject of their inquiry ?— It may be worth while just to mention that the prisoners T. F. Elliot, Esq. there are under exactly the same conditions as if they were at Portland or at Dartmoor in this country ; they have to undergo their period of service on public ^1 April 1856. works, at either of those two colonies, instead of at one of the home prisons. When the time comes for releasing them, it is necessary to send them to England to be released in like manner as if they had passed their sentence at home. 377. Sir J. Pakington.] You have alluded in your evidence to the demand which has been made from Western Australia for a larger number of convicts ; it was stated by Mr. Waddington in his examination, that that demand was to the extent that they wished to be supplied with 600 or 700 convicts a year, instead of the number which we have supplied in the last three years, which has been from 300 to 400 ; are you aware of that fact? — I am aware that they wish at present an additional supply. , 378. Can you tell the Committee when it was that that demand from Western Australia for an increased number of convicts amved ? — It has hardly been a demand, strictly speaking, for any specific annual increase; they wished us to send them a tolerably large number of convicts ever}' year ; they found by experi- ence that the number was smaller than probably they had anticipated, and hence the authorities, especially, have asked for more ; they have not nearly convicts enough at present for the public works which they want to execute. For example, the convicts cannot yet finish the building of their own prison. 379. How do you reconcile that statement with the evidence which you have given us, as to the great difficulty of finding employment for those who are sent to W'estern Australia? — By this distinction, that the scarcity is of men in the capacity of prisoners, who are to work for the Government within the prison walls ; there is not a scarcity of men in the condition of ticket-of-leave men. 380. Tlien the difficulty arises, if T understand you rightly, from the preference entertained by the colonists for the employment of convict labour, ratlier than for the employment of free labour? — I think that the demand for more convicts has come chiefly from the executive oflicers, who want more hands for their prison, and partly from the colonists who may be alarmed at seeing the supply diminish, lest (if I may say it without offence) the Government expenditure should shortly diminish, and the system gradually die out. 381. Then, if I understand you rightly, you divide the labour of Western Australia into two classes, Government labour carried on by convicts ; and with regard to that kind of labour there is a scarcity? — Yes. 382. And free labour carried on by emigrants, and with regard to that sort of labour there is a glut ; is that a correct interpretation of your statement ? — It is ; including ticket-of-leave men with emigrants. 383. INIr. Waddington was asked this question, and he gave the following answer : " Do you know whether any statement has been made in this communi- cation from Western Australia, as to the extent to which that demand is likely to be a permanent one ? " that is to say, a demand for 600 or 700 convicts a year. The answer is, " I had a conversation with Mr. Labouchere upon the subject, from which I certainly gathered from him that he considered that it would be so." Are you prepared to confirm that opinion so conveyed to this Committee by Mr. Waddington ? — I cannot at this moment call to mind any report precisely to that effect. There is, however, vacant room for about 700. 384. Is it your opinion or not, that the demand for an nicreased number of con- victs to be sent to Western Australia is likely to be a permanent demand ? — The answer to that question must entirely depend on the future prosperity of Western Australia. If there had not been the unfortunate discovery, for our present purpose, of gold, I should have felt sanguine that there would have been a great influx of free settlers, and that we might more and more have increased the number of convicts which the colony would absorb ; but inasmuch as for the last five years we have not seen the least sjTnptom of a spontaneous increase by immigration in the free population. I do not think that there could be any large permanent demand for convicts in \\ estern Australia. 385. At the same time I understand you not at all to doubt the statement that at the present time, at all events. Western Australia would gladly receive a con- siderably greater number of convicts than we now send there .' — That I fully believe. 386. Are you aware whether any demand of a similar nature has lately been expressed from any other of the British colonies r — None that I know of, except from Moreton Bay, on which some evidence has already been given. 0.42. E 2 387. You 36 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE T. F. FMivt Esq. 387. You stated in your evidence, speaking of Western Australia in 1852, 1 tliat that (•f)loiiv alone was desirous to receive more convicts ; are you aware, 21 April 1856. referring to the statement \s'hich you subsequently made, with regard to the anxiety of Moreton Bay for convicts, that that anxiety was expressed to the Colonial Office in 1852, the same year? — I am aware of it; but I looked upon Moreton I3av as a thinly peopled district of a colony, which as a whole protested vehemently against receiving convicts. 388. Are vou aware, that not only, as you stated, was the (juestion of the separation of Moreton Bay agitated, but that deputations came over to this country to pray for the separation of Moreton Bay from New South Wales, in order and with regard to that special object, that there might be no legal impediment to sending convicts to Moreton Bay? — I am aware of that fact. I know that there was one })arty, and very likely a majority in Moreton Bay, which would have been glad to receive convicts, Itut there was another party, even in Moreton Bay, which was averse to their introduction. 389. You have stated to this Committee, with perfect accuracy, the strong feeling whicli arose in Van Diemen's Land, with regard to the rec('i)tion of con- victs, which led to the discontinuance of that system ; are you aware whether or not any change has taken place in the sentiments of the cohmists of Van Die- men's Land upon this question ? — I have seen no official rei)orL of any such change. 390. Have you heard in any way of any such change ? — No, I have not. 391. You are not aware that they have begun to find a want of labour, in con- sequence of the discontinuance of the convict system? — No, I have not that knowledge. ■ 392. You have spoken of North .Australia as one of the places thought of for a new penal settlement ; can you inform the Committee what was the nature of Mr. Gladstone's intentions, and to what extent his arrangements had gone in ]g4G? — Mr. Gladstone had organised his plan very fully, and it is set forth in a desjiatch which has been printed for Parliament, it is extant in a Parliamentary Paper on Convict Discipline, printed in February 1S47. 393. If his plan, so described, had been carried out, it would, I imagine, have amounted to tlie establishment of exactly that deserij)tion of colony which you have stated, in your opinion, is now an impossibility? — The colony which I described as seeming to me almost an im])ossibility, would have been one upon the Gulf of Carpentaria ; but I also think that a colony upon the proposed site of North Australia would have been quite as objectionable. 394. What was the exact site of the proposed colony ? — It was to be to the north of the 20th parallel of latitude, the 2Cth i)arallel of latitude being the northern limit of INIoreton Bay, and close to districts which are now occupied by free people. 395. And still upon the eastern face of Australia ? — Yes. 396. Lord Naas.] What is the climate there ? — The climate is temperate. It is needless to say that it is close to the tropic ; but there is a high table land, which renders it temperate in reference to its situation by latitude. 397. Sir J. Pakingiofi.] Mr. Gladstone did not entertain the idea of estab- lishing a colony in the Gulf of Carjjentaria ? — No. 398. Supposing a colony to be established in the Gulf of Carpentaria, do you think that that colony would be free from the danger to which you have alluded of being too near to the gold fields ? — No, I do not think it would be free from that danger. The convicts, in the lapse of time, must become by law free, when you could not forbid the resort of free vessels to your coasts; you could not prohibit the ownership of vessels by the very men themselves who had been convicts. They might employ those schooners to go to the gold diggings, or they might, with less trouble, use them to pay a visit to the ships which were bringing gold to Europe. 399. Do you think that the difficulty, whatever it may be, with regard to the gold fields, would apply more to a colony in the Gulf of Carpentaria than it does at this moment apply to the colony of Western Australia ? — It would apply more strongly to the Gulf of Carpentaria on account of the geographical position, on which I have so strongly dwelt. 400. It would be nearer ? — Much nearer. 401. Do you think that any serious objection would exist to the establishment of a penal colony in the Gulf of Carpentaria on the ground of climate ?— Our data are as yet so small that I should not feel it safe to hazard any confident opinion upon that subject. 402. Would SELECT COMMITTEE ON TRANSPORTATION. 37 402. Would not the climate cif the Gulf of Carpentaria, makinn;^ allowance for 7". f, Elliot, Esn. that difforence which exists in tlie southern hemisphere, be still in fact a troj)ical climate? — Undoubtedly. 21 April •.S'56. 403. You expressed a strong opinion, as I understood you, of the impossibilty of founding a new i)enal colony at all ? — I did. 404. Why in your opinion would it be now more difficult to found a new penal colony (of course assuming that a fit place is discovered) than it fonnerly was to found the two colonies of New South Wales and V^an Diemen's Land ? — My answer to that is, that the experience of New South Wales and Van Diemen's Land confirms me in my belief of tlie obstacles to a similar experiment now. For several years the number of convicts sent to New South Wales was very small indeed. The r^flief that would have been afforded to this country by that number would have been insignificant. What led to the great success of those colonies was the discovery of the value of the great export of wool. When that wiis dis- covered, free settlers poured in, capital accumulated, convicts found ready employment, and the whole experiment was most successful. I believe that in a condition such as that, MJien you have a large free ])opulation Milling to employ convicts, transportation is the best secondary punishment which it is possible to conceive. I am no enemy to transportation ; I lament its loss. 40.5. If I understand you rightly, you draw the distinction that it would be essential in founding a new jienal colony, that there should be in that colony the elements of some commercial advantages in connexion with this country ? — I think that to reap the advantages of transi)ortation as a secondary punishment, you must have a large free population willing to receive and employ the convicts. 406. W as that the case in either of the instances Mliich I have nameart of New South Wales. 411. You mentioned Norfolk Island as an illustration of the impossibility of founding a new colony entirely of convicts ; do not you think that the insular character of Norfolk Island, the extraordinarily small area of Norfolk Island, and the absence of anything like extensive public works, form jieculiarities which Mould not apply Mitli equal force, if at all, to a new penal colony founded else- Mhere ? — They M-ere peculiarities, but I had in my mind jioints of similarity on which 1 only did not enlarge, because I Mas afraid of abusing the patience of the Committee. The insular position of course is a peculiarity, but what Mould be common to both is, that there Mould be an exclusively convict population, Mith the single exception of officers removed from all sujierintendence by high functionaries moving in a free country, and from all influence of public opinion. That Mould be common to the two. What excites my fear is, the idea of 20,000 or 30,000 gi-oMn-up male criminals, Mithout Momen, without a free comnmnity, and without even any resident public officers, excepting those answerable for their custody. 412! Do you apprehend, that in the event of its being thought advisable to found a new penal colony, it Mould be inijiossible to find means of compensating those disadvantxOges ? — I think that the only means Mould be by discovering some such unoccupied territory, tliat there Mould be a strong probability that free people Mould soon floM' in, as they did flow into New South Wales, and then you might repeat the M-hoIe history again. 0.42. E 3 413- l^o 38 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE T. F. Elliot, Esq. 413. Do you think that no such place is to be found within the British dominions r — I think not now, because I believe that the discovery of gold has 21 April 1856. ijeeii fatal to onr makinj^ use of colonies, for the present at all events, as a means of secondary iiunisiunent ; I think that entorprisinn any principle, the selections are made of those who shall go to Bermuda or Gibraltar, and those who shall stay in England ?■ — Doubtless that information can be given with more precision by other witnesses concerned in the management of the prisons. We are constantly pressed, both from Bermuda and Gibraltar, to send as many skilled labourers as possible, and it has been found very difficult to furnish them in the required numbers. 430. Do you consider that there is any difference iu the severity of carrying out a sentence according to whether a man is kept at Portland or sent out to Bermuda? • — The climate is certainly less favourable to the constitution of an Englishman, both at Gibraltar and Bermuda, than at home. 431. We have been informed by Mr. Waddington that the number of prisoners who have been sentenced under the new law to transportation has been conijjara- , tively very small ; only 300 or 400 a year ; when you spoke just now of the diffi- 0.42. E 4 culty 40 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE T. F. Elliot, hsi]. culty of fiiuliiiu- fit men to entenced within the last two years to transportation, a very con- ai ^^pril iSjC. siderable number were rejected as unfit for Western Australia? — 1 then had in my niiml tiie wliole numl)er of convicts under sentence of transportation, whether accunuilated from former years or recently sentenced. 432. You cannot tell me whether any considerable number of the recently sen- tenced transports were unfit to 00 out • — I cannot. 433. Mr. M. Milnes.'] Do you happen to know what was the condition of life which we read of Iiistorically, when we read of men beinjjf sent to the planta- tions? — Many of them were sent out, I believe, bound to render service to certain contractors, Mhich contractors could sul)let their services to others, until they had earned their freedom ; l)ut my kno\\ledge on the subject is very imperfect. 434. As far as you know, it was rather servile labour than what we should call ])ecuiiarly transportation ? — Yes. 435. Is there any reason to believe that in our \\'est. Indian colonies, and in North America, any large portion of the white population originated in servile labour ? — I do not rememl)er the instances. 436. It appears to me that you wish to drav a distinction very clearly between servile lal)our as a ))unishnient, and transportation ? — Yes. 437. ^'ou wisli to regard transportation not only as connected with the punish- ment of the criminal, but as connected with a certain state of society in which the criminal is placed, and of which he is to form part, after his sentence has expired ? —Yes. 438. Your objectiuns therefore to transportation would not be applicable to cases of mere imprisonment in distant countries ? — No ; the same objections would not apjily to that. 43Q. First of all, with regard to transportation, do you believe that the disgust in our colonies at trans])ortation, as distinguished from mere imprisonment, is now so entirely rooted that there is no hojie. imder any circumstances, of its disap- pearing? — I am convinced of that ; it has taken firm root amongst them. It began as a natural feeling in society, a social feeling, and one amongst the parents of families, but it has since that l)ecome a political passion; it drives them to the idea of rebellion to think of convicts being sent. 440. Are we authorised to suppose that a political passion of that kind is likely to be permanent? — That is a question which, in its general form, will be better judged of by a politician than 1)v myself. 441 . But so far as you can judge from your own experience, you deem it to be so? — So far as 1 can judge from my own experience, political passions are much more lasting in the relation between a colony and the mother country than in tiic case of different parties within the same territory. 442. When you talk of this as a political passion, do you not think there has been a certain national jjride in the matter connected with the particular relation between the colony and the mother country. Avhich perhaps might disapjiear now that the independence of the colony is more fully recogiiised ? — I think that there is a variet}^ of causes which render it certain that on the eastern side of Australia the colonies will never again be willing to receive convicts. In the first ])lace, there is now a very large working pojiulation ; they look with jealousy upon the introduction of other labourers who are to bring down the price of industry. That, 1 think, is one strong motive which will always remain. Then there is the feeling of ])ride to which the question alludes ; they view it as a stigma that tliev are to receive our criminals. Again, there is a strong jealousy of having anything put upon them by authority from the mother country. All those feelings combined satisfy me that we shall never again see convicts willingly received in Australia. But as 1 should always prefer resting on some strong fact rather tlian merely offering my o])inion, there is this circumstance, which it is material to mention, that in the colony of Mctoria, so strong is the abhorrence of convicts that they are continually ])assiug Bills, which at home appear of the most oppressive character, to prevent convicts, whose sentences have even been remitted, irom finding their way to the colony. They actually throw the onus prohandi upon a man to jirove that he ought to be free ; if they suspect him of being a convict the onus probandi is thrown upon him, and unless he can at once prove his free character he is shipped oti" or imprisoned, and put to hard labour. , 443. Docs that state of feeling apply equally to Van Diemen's Land ? — I think there is the same character of feeling also in Van Diemen's Land; and in Van Diemen's SELECT COMMITTEE ON TRANSPORTATION. 41 Diemen's Land they have in fact suffered much more from convicts than ever did T. F. Ellioi, Fso. Victoria. - 444. Where would be the difficulty of establishing other colonies in other parts ^^ -^P'''' '^5^' of Australia, wliich would at least relieve us of some jjortion of our convict population, in the same way that the colony of Western Australia now does ? — Upon that I have little to add to what I have submitted in forjner answers. 445. The objections which you have given would refer rather to the contingent difficulties than to any absolute impossibility of such an experiment ? — I think that if England will both spend the money and incur the responsibility, it cannot be called impossible; that I admit j but I think that it is a very grave responsi- bility indeed. 446. Has not Ascension Island been used as a criminal settlement? — If there have been any prisoners tliere, I do not remember it ; Ascension Island is usually occupied by the crew of a sloop of war. 447. Has it never been suggested that there should be a criminal settlement at Ascension Island ? — I have never met with that particular suggestion. They have suggested islands to us all over the ocean ; they have suggested the Island of Amsterdam, a small place which would hardly hold so many prisoners as Penton- ville Gaol ; but, as I said before, all such suggestions mistake the difficulty. 448. You were speaking about the difficulty of a tropical climate ; was not a large portion of the labour of Dutch Guiana in the cultivation of that country performed by white men ? — The mortality has been dreadful wherever it has been tried. 449. Do you see no advantage in transporting our criminals to a certain distance frona this countr}', even if all we can obtain is their confinement there, till the time of the expiration of their punishment, and then bringing them back, rather than keeping them in jirison here during that period r — I see no advantage, and I see many disadvantages ; I think it is more costly, and less suscej)tible of efficient and good superintendence ; I think tiiat the establishments abroad for keeping convicts at hard labour, are only justifiable and expedient when you have some public works which it is material to execute by convict labour. Now that con- dition does strictly apply both to Bermuda and Gibraltar ; I think therefore that the establishments at those two places are proper. At Bermuda it would be quite impossible to obtain free labour to execute works which are of national import- ance; at Gibraltar also it is very difficult to get good free labour; but 1 do not think that Great Britain gains much in the disposal of its criminals by the existence of those places. 4,50. Mr. B. Deiiison.'] Does not that labour cost this nation very dear? — No, I think not. The officers make calculations, by which they endeavour to show that the prisoners cost nothing. They declare that the value of their labour, in the course of a year, is more than the cost of maintaining the establishments. I should look with a little doubt upon those calculations ; but I do not think that they cost more than free labourers would. 45 1 . At all events, all those prisoners come back to England ? — They do. 4.52. And therefore, as regards England, it is the same thing as if they were at Pentonville during the timer — Yes ; as regards the disposal of criminals, it is the same thing as if they were at home. As regards the execution of public works, it may fee a convenience. 453. Your mind is clearly made up that there is an end to transportation, as regards the question of getting quit of the criminal r — I am afraid so. 4.54. Have you turned your attention at all to the manner in which criminals may be reasonably disposed of in England ? — 1 have thought a great deal about it; but I do not feel that I should lie warranted in intruding upon the Committee on that subject. I am no authority upon it at all. 455. Have you ever read the evidence which was given upon Mr. Pearson's Committee on Prison Discipline, some few years ago, where he proposed the plan of prisoners supporting themselves? — I remember hearing Mr. Pearson's views, and I knew Mr. Pearson, but I made no study of his proposals. 456. Is it not clear, that as you cannot transport these criminals, it is more than ever, in your ojunion, the duty of the Cjovcrnmiit and of Parliament to try to provide some means of giving them employment which will qualify them for their return to society, as to society tlicy nuist return, according to your view ? — It appears to me that two or three things have now become more incumbent than 0.42. F ever 42 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE T. F. Elliot, Esq. ever on Government and on society. First of all, it has lieconie more especially our interest (as it was equally our duty before) to try to diminish the sources of SI April 1856. crime ; to trv to render the whole number of criminals less. This is to be done by general good government, and perhaps by more education. In the next place, it seems to me that the instinct of the public has led it aright in sup|)osing that you should, as far as possible, try to reform juvenile dcl'ntpients. They are the beginners. And in the third place, of course prison discipline must become more than ever material to us, when the prisoner by-aud-by will be at large in our own country. 457. Have you turned your attention at all to the question of juvenile reforma- tory institutions ? — I have heard and read about them with great interest; the working of them is admirable ; the controverted point, as the Committee are well aware, is whether or not it will eventually lead parents to wish their children to commit small oH'ences, in order to get them into one of those institutions. 45S. lliat may be one of the evils, but if you reformed the cinid, he would be a better member of society r — Clearly. 450. So that it would not be all lost ? — Certainly not. 460. Can you devise any better scheme, under existing circumstances, than the general establishment of reformatories for juvenile otFenders with reference to the question that we have before us, as to the manner in which we are to deal with convicts? — They are extremely good as far as tliey go; but I think that you will require a great variety of concurrent measures, in order to do all the good that is possible. 461. Mr. M. Milnes.'\ Do you happen to recal to your mind any of the cir- cumstances connected with the way in which colonists have been willing or unwilling to receive, I will not say young criminals, but young persons who have fallen under the la\\s ? — There were small numbers of juvenile offenders sent to Western Australia at a date anterior to their asking for regular trnnsportation. For a little while it seemed to answer pretty well, but they ended by asking to receive no more. Then some 20 or 30 years ago, there was a Philanthropic Society in England which sent out some children to the Cape ; the experiment answered very ill ; the boys complained of ill-usage ; parents at home said that their children had been taken away unknown to them, and that experiment also fell to the ground. 462. At the very time of the great excitement on the subject of transjiortation at the Cape, did they not draw some distinction between juvenile offenders and other criminals, and express a willingness to receive juvenile offenders? — I am not aware of their having made the distinction. I cannot answer for the private 0))inions of the inhabitants of that country ; but I do not remember any public proceeding in which they drew the distinction. 463. Would you extend your principle as to the utter impossibility of trans- portation so far as this, that you think there is no present colony to which wo could hope even to promote the emigration of our juvenile offenders ? — I think it might be going too far to give up all hope upon that subject ; but this I would earnestly recommend, that if ever it be thought of to send juvenile offenders to any of these colonies, fair notice should be given beforehand, and a consent obtained, if possible, from authorities entitled to speak for the colony. I am confident that a contrary course would excite feelings of pride and distrust in the colonists, and would render the measure much more liable to defeat. 464. Mr. Adder lej/.'] In giving us the history of transjjortation, you began very properly with New South Wales, and said that there was nothing before but very irregular transportation to North America. Do you recollect the circumstances when North American independence suddenly stojipcd that outlet for our convicts ? — The event was just contemporaneous with the foundation of New South Wales. a(>S- New South Wales was commenced by that sudden stoppage, when some- thing like 10,000 convicts were collected on the Thames in consequence, and London was frightened ? — Yes. 466. I understand you to say, that you consider that the experience since, together with the altered circumstances of the world, render any repetition of such a resource impossible ? — Any successful repetition is so highly improbable, that it may almost be called imjiossible. 467. The chief alterations in the circumstances of the world increasing the difficulty SELECT COMMITTEE ON TRANSPORTATION. 43 difficulty are, that there are uow fewer places unoccupied in the world, and that T. F. EBiot, Eaii. locomotion is so much increased? — Exactly so. 468. The increase of civilised governments and free constitutions all over the ^' P" ^^ world, of course, increases the difficulty still more? — Certainly. 469. Do not you consider that our colonies, which now have free constitutions, are especially less likely to be inclined to receive convicts than they were before ? — Certainly. 470. Besides the national pride which has been roused, which shows no symptoms of diminution ? — That is the fact. 47 1 . When you stated that there was at first an expression of annoyance from New South Wales at the Report of the Committee of 1837 against transportation, what was the class of men in New South Wales who expressed that annoyance ? — To the best of my recollection the legislature itself; and there were public meetings on the subject. 472. What should you say was at the bottom of that feeling of annoyance at the Report against transportation ? — I think that partly their love of their country may have been wounded by such a picture of its condition, and that partly they mav have disliked losing the material advantages which they derived from the system of assigning the convicts. 473. Were not all those who so remonstrated large gainers by the Government expenditure in New South AVales upon the convict system ? — They were gainers cither by the Government expenditure or by having the cheaj) services of convicts. 474. Referring to your history of transportation, which maybe divided into three periods, the assignment system, the probation system, and Lord Grey's system, in each of which transportation has a different meaning, are you of opinion that all those three kinds of transportation it would be equally impossible to revive ? — I think so. 475. Whether in the qualified form as exiles, or as in the last period, when it was considered a treatment subsequent to punishment upon the completion of the j)enal treatment at home, still you consider that mode of qualified transportation equally impossible to be revived ? — I tliink that it would be so, and I have quoted the example of the extraordinarily stringent measures passed in the colony of Victoria ajrainst the arrival of anv men who had ever been convicts. 476. When you state that neighbouring colonies took up the opposition which was first made by certain Australian colonies, do you not conceive that colonies have not ojily an interest in stopping transportation to themselves, but only a slightly less interest in stopping transportation to neighbouring territories ? — It is perfectly true that they are liable to receive the overflowing of liberated conncts from any adjacent convict settlement. 477. Will you state the distance of the chief town in Moreton Bay from the capital of New South Wales ? — It is about 600 miles, I think, from the town of Sydney to the town of Brisbane, in INIoreton Bay. 478. What is the nature of the country unoccupied, which lies between the two districts of New South Wales proper, and ^Moreton Bay ? — The two are contiguous. 479. Is there much unoccupied country? — No; after the settled country in the northern parts of New South Wales proper, there is a succession of downs and pasture lands. 480. The passage, then, from one to the other, would be perfectly easy by land ? — Quite easy. 481. And still more easy by sea r — Still more. 482. About what is the distance of the proposed site of North Australia from Sydney ? — The boundary was not much further oiF than the town in Moreton Bay which has just been mentioned. 483. New South Wales, therefore, may be considered justified in expressing an interest in North Australia not being made a convict settlement ? — Undoubtedly; it is impossible that North Australia should be made such a settlement without a very early influx of liberated convicts into New South Wales. 484. Do you consider that if England took the step of separating Moreton Bay from New South Wales for the purpose of a convict settlement, there would be very violent resistance in New South Wales to such a proposal ? — 1 should anticipate very strong opposition. But I ought to add that the separation of 0.42. F 2 Moreton 44 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE T. F. LU.ot, Esq. Moreton Bay has been advocated on other grounds and for other purposes, and • * upon tliis I offer no opinion. 11 April I'irfi, ^8^ \'ou stated that in projiosing the formation of a new colony for the pur- pose, the cost alone wouhl be sufficient to deter us ? — I did. 4^6. Do you not consider that even where tlie cost is less, as we may suppose from some recent experience it may become, those colonies which are less expen- sive in formation Mould be still less likelv to consent to beiuff made convict set- tlcments, the self-supporting nature of a colony being rather in ])roportion to the superior class of people forming it r I would take the instance of Canterbury Colony, which I suppose has cost less than any other colony in foundation ; do you not suj)pose that the very fact of the cost having fallen upon private enterprise would render the colony less likely to consent to being made a convict settlement ? — It certainly would not render it more likely. I have no doubt that they Mould be quite as opposed as all the other Australian colonies liave been to this system. 487. You have alluded to tMo attempts made to send juvenile offenders to various colonies ; do you consider that that might be made, especially M'ith the altered institutions of England M-ith reference to juvenile offenders, a more pos- sible and feasible plan than with adults? — I think that an indispensable prelimi- nary Mould be fairly and openly to ask the colonies beforehand whether they Mould object. 488. Have you any reason to suppose that certain colonies Mould entertain such a ])roposal more favourably r — I am not aware of any reason recorded in public documents or proceedings. 489. With regard to the military pensioners in Western Australia to Mhom you have alluded, have any of them come home r — I have not heard of any. 490. In talking of the difference between the capacity of Western Australia to receive our convicts, and the numbers Mhich Me have sent out since the Act of 1853, would the number of transports Mhich the terms of that Act Mould permit to be sent out, meet the full demand of ^\ estern Australia? — The Mhole number in I8.')4 M'as not quite 400, and Mould fall much short of the demand of Western Australia. 491. Therefore if it Mas desirable to meet the full demand of Western Australia the terms of that Act must be relaxed? — Yes. 492. C/}(iirmai/.~\ So as to give the poMer of transporting for 10 years, or some- thing of that kind? — Yes. 403. .Mr. Addcrley.] Even before the attraction of the gold dreM- off settlers from Western Australia, I believe that settlement never throve.^ — No, it did not. 494. Can you state what Mas the class of men of whom the first settlers con- sisted? — They were settlers in a very favourable position in life; many of them received enormously large grants of land upon condition that they should cultivate them, but the land M-as given in such profusion that nobody v\ouId labour. Every one sought to turn landowner on his omu account, and nobody Mould work. 49'',. Tiien you consider that the first plan of that colony Mas faulty ? —Decidedly faulty. 496. Are you aware that in the last blue bonk which has just come out. Sir Henry ^"oung states, that in Van Diemen's Land, even though the convict system has ceased, yet it has produced so large a class of paupers and criminals that he considers this country bound for a long time to defray a considerable portion of their expenditure ? — I am aware that there is such a despatch from the Governor. 497. With regard to the difficulty in forming any noM" penal settlement arising from the immense disproportion of men to Momen, have you any ]>roposition to make by which that difficulty could be met ? — No, 1 cannot see hoM- the difficulty can be met. Convict Momen, as I have already exj)laincd, M^ould not, I think, answer any good purpose. You could not seek to obtain free Momen of good character in order to pour them into a society composed exclusively of male offenders. 498. Have you ever considered the plan of sending the Mives of mariied convicts out w ith them ?— The Government have already sent out the wives of married convicts with a liberal hand. The moment that the Governor of a colony reports that a convict is able and willing to maintain his wife and family, the Government endeavour to send them out. But the difficulty is this, that some of tliese M'omen themselves belong to depraved classes in society. Even their abode cannot be discovered. Some of them again have taken another husband, and are not willing to go out. The result is that, inasmuch as it is only a portion of male convicts who SELECT COMMITTEE ON TRANSPORTATIOX. 45 who are married at all, and then there is a large proportion of their wives wlio are t. F. Elliot, Esq. either not to be found or are not willing to go out, we get but a small contribu- ■ tion of free women from this source. -21 April 1856. 499. Can you state to the Committee what steps are being taken in search of a new convict settlement; what Captain Denham maybe now doing? — I am aware that there is an exploring expedition to go to the northern shores of New Holland, but 1 have no reason whatever to believe that it is with the view of finding a site for a convict settlement. 500. In answer to questions as to substitutions for transportation, you said that every other civilized country had grappled with the difficulty; have you at all studied the modes in which they have met the difficulty r — Yes ; I took some pains to gather rejjorts from several countries in Europe. There was an excellent collection of Reports upon the prison institutions of most countries in Europe, made by Commissioners of Enquirj' sent out by the French Government. Those Reports have now become of rather old date, but they might be worth referring to. 501. What was the date of them ? — I looked at them four or five years ago ; whether they were quite recent I do not know, but they were very instructive and interesting. 502. Lord A^flfl*.] Where are they to be found ? — I obtained them through the courtesy of the Foreign Office, which had a copy. 503. Mr" Adderley.'] Have you any information as to the mode in which Prussia deals with the subject ? — I have some general information. There is one curious fact which I have happened to see referred to in a work of, I think, a member of this Committee, wliich is, that it was a rule in Prussia to send a criminal to that province of the country which was the furthest removed from his usual haunts. This shows how a continental power was led by the force of circumstances to make the nearest approach to transportation of wliicli its gengraj)liy would admit. 504. Have you ever turned it over in your mind whether that gives any hiut to a possible imitation in England of the system of what may be called internal transportation ? — England is so small a country, and the means of locomotion are so easy, that it would be difficult to apply the system here. 505. Lord Naa/i.'\ You stated, that in 1853 there were 592 convicts sent to Western Australia from Ireland? — Yes. 506. 1 finil that that is the only year in which any were sent from Ireland r — Yes. 507. Has transportation to Western Austraha from Ireland then practically ceased ? — I believe that the reason why so few convicts have hitherto been sent from Ireland to Western Australia is this : At the outset it was necessary that they should construct their buildings and execute other works, and therefore impor- tant to obtain men of a certain skill in labour. The prisons in Ireland, unfortu- nately, I believe, (I have no great knowledge of them) in former days were not very Avell organised, and the prisoners had not the same advantage of training that they had in England. I have been told that this is now being remedied in Ireland ; but in the meantime, when it was necessary to seek for men who had undergone a previous course of training to labour, the English prisoners were resorted to in preference. .508. Do you kuow whether the colony objected to that batch of Irish convicts as being inferior to the class sent from England ? — They did. 509. Therefore a difficulty exists, and is likely to exist, in extending to the Irish convict the same amount of transportation as you apply to the English ? — The difficulty will exist until the Irish prisons are so organised that their inmates will be equally fit for useful labour. '510. You said that vuu did not see an v difference between the establislmient of a convict settlement upon one of the islands on the western coast, cither ot Ireland or of Scotland, and a convict establishment at Wandsworth, or close to London ; do you not think that in such a place as Clare Island, on the western coast of Ireland, or in one of the Hebrides, a greater amount of liberty might be given to convicts who showed a disposition to reform, than could be given within the four walls of any establishment on the main land ? — They might have greater liberty, but 1 do not sec that they would be better able to provide for their own subsistence. The reason why I think this is, that we all know the immense distress which has been experienced by the free inhabitants of the Hel)rides ; if they could not live there, 1 do not believe that prisoners could do so by their own exertions. 0.42 F 3 511. Do •46 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE T. !■. E/liotj Esq. .) 1 1 . Do you uot think, that iiuder proper instruction and conduct, the better class of convicts nii^lit ))o trusted in such an ishuid as tiiat to cultivate the laud, 21 April 1^50. and to be cniplovetl as auricultural labourers? — I still recur to the objection, that free men, living under free proprietors, could not exercise any industry which was renuuierative in tliose islands. ,512. You surely do not mean to say tliat those islands, lu-operly cultivated, are not caj)ab]e of supporting a very large population? — They were incapable of suj)|)orting the ])opulation which they held. 513. Iiecau.se tliat population, from the force of circumstances, depended upon a certain sort of food, which food was removed by the visitation of the Almighty, and, in fact, ceased to exist. You are aware that until the jiotato disease occurred, there was never any difficulty in obtaining Ibod for the population in the Western Islands of Ireland, and on the Western coast of Scotland ? — The Committee must be aware of the extreme destitution in the Western Highlands and Islands, long before tlie potato disease was known. 514. Do you not believe that it would be a great improvement of our present system of punishment if you could hold out to the convict a greater incentive to reform ? — Certainly. 515. Do you think that that could be done in any better way than by giving a hope, even to those who are sentenced to long terms of transportation, of a greater extension of libcjrty ? — That would be the best plan. 516. That could not be done in this country, except by the ticket-of-Ieave system, and returning them ujion society ? — That is the fact. 517. Therefore if agricultural laljour was cc)mpatil)le with restricted liberty, it might be held out as an inducement to reformation ? — Yes. 518. With regard to the military pensioners, have you any reports of the position and conduct of the military pensioners who have been sent to Western Australia. You stated, I think, that 1,47G military pensioners and their families had been sent by the Government to Western Australia ? — Yes. 5 1 9. Can you give the Conmiittee any information as to what position those people are in now, whether they are well to do in the world, and whether they are making good settlers ? — To the best of my belief they are doing well. 520. Have they become employers of convicts to any extent? — I do not believe that they have prospered sufficiently for that purpose. On the contrary, many of them are very glad to be employed, at a small rate of pay, in guarding the convict prisons. 521. Do you tiiink that in future, under different circumstances, military pen- sioners, who receive small grants of land in a colony, might become eventually employers of convict labour? — I am afraid not. We have rather a large expe- rience now of military pensioners as settlers. A great many were sent to New Zealand. Some were sent to the Falkland Islands ; and, although they are able just to live in tolerable comfort, we do not hear that any of them are amassing wealth. An old soldier makes but a poor farmer. 522. Do you not think that a better class of military pensioners might be sent to the colony than has hitherto been sent ? — AVe should have a larger choice now ; but at the end of the last European war many discharged soldiers and pensioners were sent to the colonies, and their settlements have always been very slow in progress. They have generally been behmd the mass of settlers in the colony. 523. Then you think tliat it would be a hazardous experiment to combine transportation with a large emigration of military pensioners to the same place in a new colony ? — I think that it would be a hazardous experiment. 524. For instance, the Falkland Islands have been spoken off ; do you know whether the climate and other circumstances of the Falkland Islands would enable a population such as I allude to, to raise sufficient means for their subsistence? — I think they could barely raise the means for their subsistence, and no more ; the Falklands constitute a very poor and languishing settlement : the old soldiers there just live, and no more. 525. What does that arise from? — It is an inhospitable climate; extremely boisterous ; indeed, I remember one of the few advocates of the Falklands whom I ever met, told me that he believed some products would grow very well, if the wind did not blow them down as fast as they came above ground. 526. Do you know whether corn will grow there? — It must be carefully sheltered ; it must grow behin. O'Brien. connexion with Colonel Jebb, the chairman of the department, and Captain Whitty, the other director. ^ 28 April 185G. 530. What is your own peculiar department ? — To superintend the prisons where prisoners are confined in separate confinement in the first stage of their punishment as convicts, together with the superintendence of Parkhurst Prison, and the superintendence of Brixton Prison, where female convicts are confined. 531. Can you give the Committee information as to the number of convicts on the llth of March 1856 in the convict prisons in England ? — I can. 532. Vou have your information made up to that day, I believe? — I have. There were then in separate confinement 1,716 male convicts. I am speaking now of male convicts only, not of female convicts ; and I do not include Irish convicts. In the public works prisons there are 3,729. Invalids in " Stirling Castle" hulk and at Dartmoor Prison, 1,155. At Parkhurst there were 383 juvenile prisoners sentenced to transportation and penal servitude; making a total uf 6,983 male prisoners sentenced to transportation and penal servitude. .533. \\ hich are the prisons that you call public works prisons ? — The hulks at Woolwich, Portsmouth Prison, and Portland Prison, to which prisons convicts are sent after having passed a period varying from nine months to twelve months in separate confinement. 534. In what prisons do they pass that first period of separate confinement? — Milbank Prison, Pcntonville Prison. Wakefield Prison, and Leicester Prison. Until very lately, several prisoners were confined in other prisons, but I have not mentioned those other prisons, because the numbers are reduced now to very few. 535. Are those prisons which you have enumerated all that are at present in use for that purpose ? — Yes. 536. Do you no longer rent cells at Leeds, Wakefield, Northampton, Bath, Reading, and Bedford ? — All those prisons have been given up, or are in course of being given up, with the exception of Wakefield and Leicester ; the numbers are reduced to two or three or four in each place, and when those are taken away, no more will be sent. 537. Will you just state again the prisons which will be retained for that pur- pose when your arrangements are complete ? — Milbank will be retained, capable of holding 1,100 prisoners ; Pentonville will be retained, capable of holding 560 ; Wakefield will be retained, to hold 400 prisoners ; and Leicester will be retained, to hold 115 prisoners. 0.42. F4 538. Wlxfin 48 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE Capt. D. O'Britn. 538. AMien you speak of Wakefield and Leicester being retained, you mean that you will continue the jiiactice of renting, on the part of the Government, s8 April 1856. certain cells in those prisons ? — Yes. 53p. Can you now give the Committee information as to the number of licences issued in tlic several quarters of years, from the 1st of April 1854 to the Slst of March in the present year"- — Yes. ,540. What are these licences ? — Licences which arc commonly termed tickets of leave. 541. Licences or tickets of leave? — Yes; in the quarter ending June 1854, there were 480 licences issued; in the quarter ending September 1854, there were 551 ; in the quarter ending December 1854, there were 550 ; in the quarter ending March 1855, there Avcre 433 ; in the quarter ending June 1855, there were 761; in the quarter ending September 1855, there were 550; in the quarter ending December 1855, there were 694; in the quarter ending March 1856. there were 660 ; making a total of 4,679. 542. Have you a statement of the number of licences issued previously to April 1854? — Yes, tliey amounted to 649; making a total of 5,328 licences issued to the 31st of March 185G. 543. Have you a statement of the numbers of licences revoked within tliose same jjeriods? — Yes. In the qaarter ending June 1854, there were 8 licences revoked ; in the quarter ending September 1854. there were 2 licences revoked; in the quarter ending December 1854, there were 12 licences revoked; in the quarter ending March 1855, there were 19 licences revoked; in the quarter ending June 1855, there were 28 licences revoked; in the quaiter ending Sep- tember 1855, there were 28 licences revoked; in the quarter ending December 1855, there were 28 licences revoked; and in the quarter ending March 1856, there were 55 licences revoked. Previously to June 1S54, there was one licence revoked; making a total of revocations, up to the end of March 1856, of J 81. I may say that in the Return which was handed in by Mr. Waddington, the number which he gave was \70, but he took his numbers up to the 11th of March. In order to make the comparison, wluch I shall be able to make, I have taken the numbers up to the end of March 1856; my total is 181, hi^ total is 179. 544. Mr. J3. Denison.~\ You say that there were 480 licences granted in the first quarter, and eight revoked ? — Yes. «;45. And in the second quarter there M'ere 551 granted, and two revoked r —Yes. 546. Do you mean that two were revoked of those 551, or of the whole number then in existence ? — I do not mean that two out of the 480 were revoked, but I mean that in that quarter, ending June 1854, eight licences were revoked. 547. Take the second jxiriod ; when there were 551 granted, two appear to have been revoked ? — Within the same period. .548. Are you able to say whether the two Avhich Avere revoked belonged to the 551 that were granted in the second quarter, or might they be two of the 480 whicli were granted in the first quarter ? — I do not know which quarter they belonged to. 549. I will take the sixth quarter, when 28 were revoked ; have you any means of knowing whether those 28 which were revoked, belonged to that particular quarter in which they had been granted, or MJiether they belonged to some pre- Tious quarter? — They partly belonged to the quarter in which they were revoked, but the majority of them belonged to jirevious quarters. 550. Chairman.'] Can you give the Committee information, showing a com parison of the discharges in 1854 Avith revocations in corresponding periods of 1855? — Yes; in the quarter ending June 1854, there were 480 discharges ; in the quarter ending June 1855, there were 28 revocations ; in the quarter ending September 1854, there were 551 discharges; in the quarter ending September 1855, there were 28 revocations ; in the quarter ending December 1854, there were 550 discharges; in the quarter ending December 1855, there were 28 revo- cations; in the quarter ending March 1855, there were 433 discharges ; in the quarter ending March 1856 there were 55 revocations; making a total of 2,014 discharges in tlie year ending March 1855, and 139 revocations in the year ending March 1856 ; the revocations in the year ending March 1856 bearing a propor- tion SELECT COMMITTEE ON TRANSPORTATION. 49 tio«*of Gl per cent, to the discliarges which had taken place in the ])revious year. Capt. D. O'Biiai. The reason wliy I compared these was, that in going through the different revo- cations, I found that in the revocations which took place in I80G, the great 28 .Apsil iSjtJ. majority consisted of prisoners who had been one year and less than one year •lischarc-ed on licence. Of the 139 revocations which I have mentioned as having taken place in the year ending March 1856, 109 were in respect of prisoners whose licences were revoked within 12 months after their discharge; that is to say, the prisoners whose revocations took place in the year ending March 1856, bore a proportion to the discharges for the year ending March 1855, of about 5 J percent. It is difticult to ])ut the numbers in any way which ■will give an accurate per-centage of the revocations tliat take place in one period with respect to prisoners who may be discharged in a corresponding period. For instance, the number of discharges in the first six months, that is to say, from the 1st of Octo- ber 1853 to tlio 31st of March 1854, were (i40 ; and up to the present time, covering a period of irom two years to 2 h years, the number of licences revoked are 29, being equal to about 4i per cent. Hence of those that were discharged in the rirst six months there are only 4 J per cent, returned ; whereas, in the year ending March 1856, 5h per cent, of the discharges of which had been granted within 12 months previously, were revoked. It is clear that it is very difficult to show any exact per-centage of revocations. The returns of the convicts wiio have fallen into crime, and who have been re-sentenced, are at the Home Office ; we have not them in our office. There were 422 men discharged with licences stated by Mr. ^\ addington as having f:\llen into crime, including the 179 revocations which he mentioned, or, as I have it, 181 revocations. 1 may say that it is scarcely safe to estimate jiroportions when the actual figures may be obtained ; but assuming an analogy between the ])eriods when revocations took ]ilace and when the remaining 240 were sentenced; we do not exceed an estimate of more than 12 per cent, of the numbers who have fallen into crime after having been discharged. I do not wish to convey the idea that 12 jtcr cent, will re- I)re.sent ail those who have actually fallen into crime ; far from it, because there are a great manv who have fallen into crime of whom we know nothing. For instance, at my last visit to ^Vakefield, I spoke to a ])risoner in the usual way, asking him if he had anything to say, and he turned to me and said, " AV'liy, Captain," so-and-so, and so-and-so. 1 asked him how he knew that I was a Captain ; he laughed, and said, " Oh ! it does not signify." 1 asked the warders if they knew tliat the man had been a ticket-of-leave man ; they said ihey sus- jiected he had been so, but they were by no means sure. It was clear he had been a ticket-of-leave man, and knew who I was. But if I guess the undiscovered culprits at eight j)er cent., and I think I allow a very large margin, we then have only 20 i)er cent, known and unknown relapses. It however seems to me that fixing the per-centages on the smaller figures may convey a correct idea of the criminality, but it does not convey to the public mind a correct idea of reforma- tion; 20 per cent, representing the criminality may appear rather startling, but 80 per cent, representing the reformation apjiears to me to be satisfactory ; and I would remark, that a system which turns four-fifths of our worst population into resjiectable citizens is more successful in its results thau I, at any rate, could have anticipated three years ago. 5.51. Mr. Jj. Dcnison.^ Do you think that you are quite safe in using the word "reformation " as applied to the 80 per cent. ' — I use the word " reformation" in the sense that the j)ersons who are so discharged may be considered so far reformed as to conduct themselves fiiirly and decently. 552. Is it not rather a fiiirer inference that you know nothing against them ; if you say that they are reformed, you ought to be able to prove that they are really leading an honest life ; but accortling to the notion on my mind, all that you can say of them is this : that you have no further knowledge of them after they get out of ])rison ; you do know, of course, as to those whose licences have been revoked, and the others who have been reconvicted, which number you put at 20 per cent. ; but I should be very glad to be convinced that the other 80 per cent, are really reformed ; it is rather more a negative quality than a positive quality ; however, it is a mere matter of opinion ; 1 suppose what you mean is, that you know nothing against them? — I assume that 12 per cent, are known to have actu- ally fallen into crime ; 1 assume 8 per cent, additional as the outside of those who may have fallen into crime, but of whom we know nothing; the remaining 80 per cent, would therefore represent the men who have been discharged on licence, and 0.42. G have 50 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE Capt. D. O'Brien, have not fiillcu into crime, and to that extent, and to tliat extent only, Avould I apply the word " reformation." i? April 1856. .5,53- Mr. Adder la/.] Yon slionld not say "wlioliave not fallen into crime, " but who have not been detected again in crime for a twelvemonth since their release ; does it amount to more than that ? — My explanation is this, that, taking^ all those who have been reported to the Home Office, incliuliii. For how long has it been the practice to send that latter description of prisoners to Parkhurst r — Within the hust year. 572. Mr. Decdcs.'] Of what age is that description of prisoners.- — The same ao"e ; 16 rears and under, when sentenced. 573. Chairman.'] What are the present numbers in Parkhurst? — ^On the 6th of April there were 423 prisoners, of whom 36 were sentenced to the shorter sen- tences ; the remainder were sentenced to penal servitude, or transportation. 574. Mr. Adderlei/.] Can you state how many were sentenced to penal ser- vitude, and how many to transportation ? — I have not a return showing that, but I could prepare it if required. The numbers have been very much diminished in the last few years. In 1850, the daily average was 620; in 1855, the daily average was 482 ; the ])resent number, as I have stated, of those sentenced to penal servitude and tians])ortation is only oho. Therefore thei-e has been a suc- cessive diminution of imnibers of those sentenced to penal servitude and trans- , I portation from 1850 down to the j)reseut time. 575. (.'hainnaii.] Can you state to the Committee the system of treatment adopted at Parkhurst, with respect to the prisoners who are sent there : — As soon as they have gone through their various grades, and have been a certain time in the tirst class, they receive their licences, provided they have passed throu"-h the regular time that adult prisoners have to pass through. Every prisoner received into Parkhurst remains four months in the probationary ward ; in the third class he remains four months ; in the second class he remains six months ; in the first class he remains 10 months; and then, provided he has passed through the periods which are allotted to adult prisoners, in respect of their sentences, he receives his discharge ; that is to say, a prisoner who is sentenced to seven years' transporta- tion is discharged at the end of three years, provided he has been in the first class 10 months; a prisoner sentenced to 10 years' transportation is discharged at the end of four years, provided he has been the same period in the first class. 576. Mr. Adderley .] Is he discharged altogether? — He is discharged on licence. 577. Chairman.] What are the rules under which prisoners are discharged upon licence ; have you those rules with you ? — I have no special rules to offer to the Committee beyond that which T have been stating. 578. Mr. Adderley.] Do you mean that a boy now sentenced to seven vears' transjiortation is kept three years in Parkhurst, and then discharged on licence? — Provided his conduct has been good. 579. If the sentence is transportation, still he is discharged on licence? — Yes. No prisoners have yet been discharged who have been sentenced to penal ser- vitude. .580. Mr. B. Denison.] The Act does not allow that? — The Act allows it ; but none have been discharged. 581. Mr. Adderlei/.] Then all the cases which you have alluded to were cases under sentence of trans|)ortation at the time of the passing of this Act r — Yes. .582. Chairman.] They were persons actually under sentence of transportation at the time the Act Avas passed ?--Yes. 583. What are the gratuities which are given to the prisoners at Parkhurst upon their discharge under licences r — Prisoners who are in the first and second classes are entitled to certain gratuities according to their labour. For instance, a pri- soner in the first class, who is in the general ward, is permitted to have 6 r/. a week, and if he is in the junior ward lie is jiermitted to have 4lace in procuring places for them to be sent to. The governor of Parkhurst Prison has been very active in the matter; and I hold in my hand a list of prisoners for whom employment was ])rocured by him : "1. A. B., (lomestic servant. His master was highly pleased with him at first, but afterwards some difference arose; A. B. left his place and entered the Royal Navy, in which he is rated as an able seaman, and doing well. 2. J. L., seaman on board a collier brig; doing very well. 3. B. M., ditto, ditto ; did very well till accidentally drowned in the Black Sea by falling overboard. 4. J. H., doing very well as a sailor; giving great satisfaction to his ca|itain. 6. G. T., made three voyages to the West Indies in a mail steamer; behaved well, and had a good chai-acter ; afterwards entered a militia rogiment, in which he is now serving. 0. J. B., placed on board a collier on trial before a]iprenticeship; suffered grievously from sickness on the first voyage, and, Mith the ca])tain's con- sent, left the ship at Shields, went to Edinburgh, fell amongv;t his former com])a- nions, and was ap])rehended and re-convicted. 7. J. M'L., ])laced on l)oard a collier, left her, and entered the Royal Navy ; deserted his ship, and was seen in Liverpool, apparently destitute. 8. R. C, placed on board a collier, left her, and entered the Royal Navy, in which he is doing Avell. 9. T. D., jjlaced on board a sea-going merchant ship; last report good. 10. T. B., apjirenticed on board 'a brig ; giving great satisfaction to his caj)tain, and w ell jileased with his duty ; has repeatedly visited the j)rison." These prisoners had either no friends to go to, or their friends were so jioor, and leading such disreputable lives, that the g-overnor thought it far better to put them out in any respectable way than to send them adrift. 630. All the ]iersons in that list are persons of that descri])tion r — Yes. I have a list of prisoners for whom emi)loyment was obtained by the chaplain to Park- hurst prison : "1. G. AV., ])laced at work with a respectable shoemaker; could not earn enough Mages; left his place, and went on board a collier. JVIode one voyage to Sunderland ; left his ship there, and became a strolling singer in the streets ; apjrrehended for felony ; convicted and sentenced to i)enal servitude. 2. \V . C., domestic servant; behaved well, and gave satisfaction to his master ; a fellow servant told neighbours that W. C. had been a convict; he was so much annoyed, that he left his })lace and enlisted. He is doing very well in the army as an officer's servant. 3. J. R., domestic servant; has conducted himself veiy steadily and resjiectably, and has given full satisfaction to his master. Mr. ]\Iurray, the farm bailiff, being acquainted Avith the ])ro])rietor of some large brickfields in Berkshire, induced him to take three young men from Parkhurst iiito his employ- ment ; they, however, were very much disgusted with the conduct and language of their fellow- workmen, and wished to leave the place as soon as possible ; one went home to his friends, and cidisted in a militia regiment ; the second, I liave not heard of since he left. The third wrote me word that he would stay ^here he was, till he could get some more respectable emplo^nnent, though he very much disliked his associates. Schoolmaster Morris obtained employment for two ]n-isoners on board ship: 1. J. .M. is doing very well; about to sail now from Bordeaux for Valparaiso, having just returned to the former port from Martinique. 2. J. M. was doing well when last last beard of." 631. Mr. Adaerlfi/.] M ho jiaid for the outfit and the apprenticeship of those prisoners ? — There were no apprentice fees, so far as I recollect, but the outfit was paid out of the gratuity. 'J hose boys who were going to sea were dif- ferently SELECT COMMITTEE ON TRANSPORTATION. .5.5 ferontly fitted out from those who were goin^ to labour ; for instance, instead of Capt. D. O'Brien. gi\'n\g him a pair of corduroy trousers and a fustian jacket to labour in the fields, he got a good comfortable sea-.jacket and a jiair of blue trousers. I myself have 28 April 1856. taken a great deal of trouldc with regard to several Parkhurst ])risouers. I have notes of what I have don^^ in the matter, and if the Committee wish it, I will read them. I took a great deal of trouble in 18.04 at Liverpool among the ship- owners. I saw five or six ditierent gentlemen who were leading sliijjowners in Liverpool, and only one of those could give me any assistance ; they disliked the notion of taking lads who had been convicts; they .said that they kept their berths for the sons of their own people who were respectable, ant I that they did not like to take those who had been the reverse. However, one gentleman |)r()niised a berth for a boy, and he said that he would give a second a berth if he turned out well. Unhapjiily difficulties arose with respect to the sailing of the ships, an. There are certain classes of employment, which are the readiest modes of dis])Osingof these boys, such as going out on ship-board, and kinds of life which are more according to their tastes, are they not ?— Far more so than ordinary labour. 643. C/iffinnaii.] Have you a table with you, giving information relative to 151 licensed ])risoners from Parkhurst Prison, during the four (piarters ending respectively olst March, 30tli .lune, 30th September, and 31st Decend)er 18r)5, showin"- res])ectively the date of discharge, the date of information afforded, and particulars : — ^ es. 644. Where do you get the information comprised in this table? — From the chai)lain of Parkhurst, who has embodied it in his yearly report. 645. You have been speaking all this time of Parkhurst? — Entirely. 646. Will you put in that table ? — [77ic Witness delivered m the same, iv/iic/i is as follows :] REPORT of Information received relative to 1.51 Licknsed PnisoNKUs durinp: tlie Four Quarter* endin" re.speetively 31 March, 30 ,)nne, 30 September, and 31 December 185.5, showing respec- tivelv the Date ofDischarge, Date of Information afforded, and Particulars. Quarter ending' 31 March 1855. Initials of Prisoners, and Date of Discharge. Date of Information, and by whom afforded. No.l. \V. P. (1-5 Aug. 1854) 1 Jan. lR.5o; himself ■ I No. 'J. ,1. F. (6 Jan. 1854) - j 31 Jan. 185.5; himself No. 3. R. R. (3 Jan. 1855) ' \-2 Feb. 185.5 ; himself No. 4. J. L. (19 -May 18-J4) \ 18 Feb. 1855; visited , I the prison officers. No. 5. G. T. (30 Nov. 1854) j 18 Feb. 1855; visited i the prison, and re- \ mained anight with , bis old master. No.C. T. J. (3 Jan, 1855) - 25 Feb. 1855; himself j 1 I Ab.stract of Particulars from Letters, &c. Doing well in every respect. Contented and well paid for his labour. Doing well. Requesting a certificate of character, so ns to enable him to procure a situation ; the certi- ficate not to allude to his having been in Park- liurst Prison. Information afterwards re- ceived stated he was doing well. Conduct .satisfactory in every respect; has worked for tlie same master the whole time. Doing well and liking his employment. Mad .saved some pounds since his liberation. He says he is doing well and liking his employ- ment. SELECT COMMITTEE ON TRANSPORTATION. 57 Initiols of I'risoncrs, and Date of Discharge. No. 7. J. R. (19 Oct. 1854) No. 8. E. G. (6 Jan. 1804) No. 9. C. D. (22 Sept. 1854) No. 10. J. B. (9 March 1854) No.ll. W.M. (21 Feb. 1855) No. 12. T. P. (19 Dec. 1854) No. 13. J. H. (9 May 1854) No. 14. T.R. (10 Mar. 1854) No. 15. T. F. (10 Mar. 1854) No.lG. W.H.(21 June 1854) No. 17. \V.W.(7 Dec. 1853) No. 18. W.C. (18. Sept. 1854) No. 19. C. P. (6 Jan. 1654) No. 20. J. R. (6 Jan. 1854) No. 21. B. M. (1 July 1854) No. 2-3. H.J.E.(11 July 1854) No. 23. W.L.W.(r) Jan. 1854) No. 24. J. F. (14 June 1854) No. 25. J. L. (6 Jan. 1854) No.26. C.H. (13 June 1854) No.27. G. B. (13 June 1854) No.28. R. C. (3 Jan. 1854) No. 29. H. C. (3 Oct. 1854) Date of Information, and bv wlioni afforded. 28 Feb. 1855; by let- ters from himself and employer. 1 March 1854; chap- lain and principal schoohiiaster. 1 Mar. 1834 ; himself 6 Mar. 1855; himself 6 Mar. 1855; himself 9 Mar. 1855; himself 12 Mar. 1855; himself 13 Mar. 1855; re- turned to this prison 13 Mar. 1855; T. R. No. 14. 13 Mar. 1855; T. R. No. 14. 15 Mar. 1855; himself 15 Mar. 1855 ; em- ployer, chaplain & others. 16 Mar. 1855; princi- pal schoolmaster. 18 Mar. 1855; J. L. No. 4, by whom he , is often seen. \ 19 Mar. 1855 ; em- j ployer. 19 Mar. 1855; em- ployer. 19 Mar. 1855; himself 19 Mar. 1855; himself 19 Mar. 1855; himself 24 Mar. 1855; himself 24 Mar. 1855; himself 26 Mar. 1855; himself 19 Mar. 1855; himself] Abstract of Particulars from Letters, &e. Capt. D. O'Brien. 28 .April iS^n. Conduct most satisfactory ; his master is much attached to him. Was cheerful and contented when seen by the chapliiin and principal schoolmaster. Ei- pressul himsplf satisKcd with his situation. Doing' well, and likinji: his employment. At times out of work, and afraid he may be tempted to do wronor, therefore wishes him- self back to tliis place in an honest way. Doing well. Was well received by his mother, who is com- fortably situated. Looking- out for work. Requesting a certificate of character so as to en- able him to procure a situation ; the certifi- cate not to state that he had been a prisoner. Doing well. He is still in good work, ami doing well ; has a house of his own ; about to get married. Licence revoked. Sentenced to 10 years' penal servitude for steal- ing. Sentenced to 10 years' penal servitude for steal- ing. Doing well. Has repeatedly risited i'arkhurst. Conduct satisfactory in every respect, and has been in the same situation during tlie whole period. Helping to su])port his mother. Had a contented staid appearance when seen by the schoolmaster. He is fully employed. Doing well. Conduct satisfactory in every respect ; has been in the same employment the whole time, under the same master as No. 4. Conduct satisfactory in every respect ; has been in the same employment during the whole period, with the same master as Nos. 4 and 21. A sailor boy, doing well. Doing well. A most intelligent young man, who is very atten- tive to his business. Liring with his parents. Has gone to sen. Doing well. Doing well. Conduct satisfactory. He has been in the same situation during the whole period. Qv.tRTER ending 30 June 1855. No. 1. W.W. (21 Feb. 1855) No. 2. W.M. (21 Feb. 1855) No. 3. G.W. (6 Jan. 18.34) No. 4. W.N. (21 Feb. 1855) No. 5. J. C. (3 Sept. 1854) No. 6. J. B. (11 April 1854) No. 7. W. P. (15 Aug. 1854) No. 8. H.M. (19 Dec. 1854) No. 9. J. C. (14 June 1854) No. 10. J.W.(21 Feb. 1855) No.ll. C.R. (10 April 1855) 0.42. 2 1 April 1 855 ; himself and others. 1 April 1855; himself 1 April 185.J ; returned to this place. 4 April 1855; himself 4 April 1855 ; himself C April 1855; returned to this place. 10 April 1855; himself 10 April 1855; himself 14 April and 24 May 1855 ; himself and Mr. Meadon, chief warder of Birming- ham prison. 16 April 1855; himself 10 April 1855; by No. 10. H In full employment. Doing well. Working at his trade. Again asked for a certi- ficate of character, so as to enable him to pro- cure higher wages. His licence has been revoked. He says he was only found trespassing. Working at his trade, and doing well. Doing well. Has been twice in prison for theft ; consequently his licence has been revoked. He says he could not obtain employment on account of the severity of the winter. Doing well. Doing well. Sentenced to six years' penal servitude. He says he could not get work. Doing well. Had been kindly received by his mother, wards heard that he was doing well. Afte 58 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE Cnpt. D. O'Brien. 38 April 1856. Initials of Prisoners, and Date of Dischagc. Date of Information, anil by whom afforded. No.l2. A. A. (20 Sept. 1854) ! 19 April 1S.">.5 ; liimsolf No.ia. A.G. (21 Feb. 1855) 19 April 1855 ; by Ni>. 1-2. No.14. R. R.(.1, Inn. 1855) 24 April 1855; himself No. 15. P. F. (21 Feb. 1855) 24 April 1860; by No. 14. No. 16. C. P. (6 Jan. 1854) I 26 April and 28 May I 1855; principal ' schoolmaster. No.17. J. R. (15 June 1854) 29 April 1855 ; himself No. 18. H.C. (10 Oct. 1854) No. 19. J.P. (19 Dec. 1854) N0.2O. A. A. (21 Feb. 1855) No. 21. J. J- (3 May 1855) N0.22. T. R.(15Juncl854) No.23. VV.H. (14 June 1854) No. 24. P. F. (9 Oct. 1854) No. 25. E. G. (6 Jan. 1854) No. 26. C. R.(3 May 1855) No. 27. H. M. (4 May 1855) No. 28. J. L. (6Jan. 1854) No. 29. E. E. (6 Jan. 1855) No.30. W.C.(18Sept.l854) No.31. J. F.(2lSepUl854) No. 32. R. C. (9 May 1855) No. 33. J. M.L. (8 May 1855) No. 34. W. S. (9 Oct. 1854) No. 35. C.L. (21 May. 1855) No. 36. SL. (3 May 185.5) No 37. T.M.(20Sept.l8o4) No.38. M.B.(20Sept.l854J Abstract of Particulars from Letters, &c. 1 May and 25; also 30 June 1855 ; him- self. I May 1855; by No. 18." 7 May 1855 ; himself II May 1855; himself 12 May 1855 ; by a pri.soner's mother's letter. 12 May 1855; the go- vernor of Parkluirst. 16 May 1855 ; himself 28 May 1855; by No. 16. " 28 May 1855; himself 10 Jime 1855; himself 10 June 1855; himself | 10 June 1855; by No. 28. 16 June 1855; the chaplain of Park- hurst. 30 June 1855; the chaplain of Winches- ter I'rison. 30 June 1855 ; himself and others 30 June 1855 ; himself and others. 30 June 1855 ; by No. 32. 30 June 1855 ; by No. 32 and liimsclf. 30 June 1855; himself 30 June 1855 ; by No. 38. 30 June 1855 ; by No. 36. Has remunerntive employment Doinjy well. Had just left his iiativc place in scuroh of work, which WHS found, and is doinj;; well. In a good situation, at 40 /. a year. In steady work. Doing' well. Doing well in every respect. ITis master had raised his wages on account of his zeal in the discharge of his duties. In pood employment, and doing well in every respect. E.vpiesses his gratitude for the in- struction received in Piirkhiirst. May 1st. Doing well in every respect. His master and mistress very kind to him. May 25th. Had been found out by old associates, who were tempting, nnnoying, and exposing him. June 30tli. Hud got another place; doing well. Sentenced to four years' penal servitude for re- lapsing into his old haliits. Living with his pareuts, and earning 10 s. per week. Expresses hiiijself gratefully for the kindness received, and the advantages derived while in Parkhurst Prison. He intended to go to his relations in America. Sentenced to 21 3-ears' penal servitude for house- breaking. Licence revoked. Doing well in every respect. Doing well in every respect. Doing well. Living with his sister. Doing well. Doing well in every respect. Has been in con- stant employment with the same master during the whole period. Doing quite well. Works along with No. 28. Was obliged to leave a most comfortable place on account of its having become generally known that he had been a convict. lie has gut another situation, in which he is doing well. In Winchester Prison, having had his licence revoked. Doing well. Doing well. Doing very well. He is doing very well. E-xpressina: the deepest gratitude for the kind- ness and instruction received during the time he was in Parkhurst. He is doing well and in good work. Has been re-convicted. Doinc well. Quarter ending 30 September 1855. No. 1. J. A. (21 May 1855) No. 2. S. L. (3 May 1855) 8 July 1855; himself 8 and 29 July 1855; himself. No. 3. H. C. (10 Oct. 1854) 14 July and 12 Aug. I 1855 ; himself. Complaining of not having been able to procure employment; known, however, to be living honestly. Doing well in every respect. In full employment, and doing well. SELECT COMMITTEE ON TRANSPORTATION. 59 Initials of Prisoners, and Date of Discbarge, Date of Information, and by wbom afforded. No. 4. T. P. (19 Dec. 1854) No. 5. J. B.(U June 1854) No. 6. 1. P. (6 Jan. 1854) - No. 7. J. J. (20 .March 1854) No. 8. A. A. (20 Sept. 1854) No. 9. J. C. (20 Sept. 1854) No. 10. A. G. (21 Feb. 1855) No. 11. R. B. (6 Jan. 1854) No. 12. T. A. (4 May 1855) No. 13. P.M.C.;3Jan.l854) No. 14. R. C. (9Majl855) No. 15. T.J. (3 Mav 185.5) No. 16. H.D. (15 Aug. 1854) No. 17. W.S. (9 Oct. 1854) No. 18. \V. P. (15 Aug. 1854) No. 19. C.H.(15Aug.l854) No.20. W.M.(21 Feb. 1855) No.21. G.B. (26 July 1855) No. 22. D.S. (28 Aug. 1855) No.23. R.B. (26 July 1855) No. 24. J. M. (13 May 1855) No. 25. J. J. (3 May 1855) No. 26. J.M.L.(7May 1855.) No. 27. T.K. (26 July 18-55) No. 28. E. J. (26 July 1855) No. 29. J. F.( 14 June 1854) No. 30. W. ?. (28 Aug. 1 855) No. 31. J. S. (28 Aug. 1855) No. 32. G.Y. (15 Aug. 1854) No. 33. C.H.i,14 June 18.54) No. 34. W.H. (3Aug.J8o5) No. 35. B.R. (26 July 1855) No. 36. E. G. B. (21 Aug. 1855). No. 37. R.H. (IsAug. 1854) No.38. H.P.(1'J Dec. 1854) No.39. H.B. (28 Aug. 1855) No. 40. J. M. (21 Feb. 1855) No. 41. J. L. (26 July 1855) 0.42 14Julyle55; himself 23 July 1855 ; W. H. retarned to this place, and reported upon last quarter. 23 July 1855; W. H. returned to this place. 23 July 1855; returned to this place. 23 July 1855; a letter received by a prisoner here. 27 July 1855; himself 27 July 1855; visited Parkhurst. 1 Aug. 1855 ; himself 1 Aug. 1855; himself 1 Aug. 1855; by No. 2 Abstract of Particulars from Letters, kc. Capt. D. O'Brku, ■28 April 1856. 2 Aug. and 20 Sept. 1855; himself. 2 Aug. 1855; himself 8 Aug. 1855 ; seen by the chaplain. 13 Aug. 1855; himself 15 Aug. and 30 Sept. 1855; himself. 15 Aug. 1855; himself and No. 18. 19 Aug. 1855; himself 21 Aug. and 30 Sept. 1 855 ; seen by the principal schoolmas- ter. 11 Sept. 1855; himself 13 Sept. 1855; himself 13 Sept. 1855; No.23 13 Sept. 1855; No.23 113 Sept. 1855; seen J by No. 23 - -{ 13 Sept. 1855; a letter received by a prisoner from his fatlier. 13 Sept. 1855; a letter received by a prisoner from his father. 14 Sept. 1855; himself 18 Sept. 1855; himself 19 Sept. 1855; himself 23 Sept. 1855 ; ha.s visited tbe officers of the establishment twice since licensed. 27 Sept. 1855; himself, and by No. 34. 27 Sept. 1855; himself 30 Sept. 1855; himself 30 Sept. 1855; himself 30 Sept. 1855; himself 30 Sept. 1855 ; by No. 39. 30 Sept. 1855; by No. 39. In good employment in the United States of America. Comfortably married, and doing well in erery respect. Sentenced to six years' penal servitude for re- lapsing into his old habits. Licence revoked, and returned to this place for relapsing into his old habits. Doing well in every respect, and has been working in the same place during the whole period. Fully employed, and doing well. Fully employed, and doing well. Doing well. Working with his uncle ; doing well. Had been in good employment at 18 it. per week, but was in search of work on account of its having become slack at his former place of residence. Doing well in every respect. In good work, and doing well in every respect. Doing well. Doing very well, and has been in the same situ- ation during the whole period. Fully employed. Doing well. Fully emploj-ed. Doing well. Earning 10«. per week, and expecting an advance. Fully eniploj-ed, and seemingly happv. Doing well, and earning 12*. per week. Doing well. Doing well. Earning 15*. per week. Gone to the United States of America. Doing well. This is the information we re- ceived the next time we heard of these lads. In good health ; working and doing well. Doing well, and earning 22 s. per week by work- ing- at the trade which he learnt while in Park- hurst Prison. '. In good work at 1 5 s. per week. In full employment. Doing well. In constant work at los. per week. Doing well. Very" cheerful. Doing well. In work, and doing well. In work, and doing well. Engaged on board a steam-boat trading on the coast of Australia. He says he is comfortable and well cared for. Working with his uncle, and doing well. Doincr well. Doing well. [conlinued). H 2 6o MINUTES OF EVIDI.NCE TAKEN BEFORE THE C'apt. D. O'Brien. 28 April 1856. Quarter ending 51 December 185Q. Initials of Prisoners, and Date of Discliarge. No. 1. W.P. (-JSAu-. 18r,o) No. 2. R.R. (3 .Ian. 1854) No..*?. A.A. (20 Sept. 1854) No. 4. J.C. (28 Augr. 18.>5) No. 5. D. L.(21 Feb. 1855) No. 6. T.W.(28Au^.l8&6) No. 7. T.L. (14 June 1855) No. 8. W.P.(15Au{,'.1854) No. 9. T. K. (20 July 1855) No. 10. J.W.(21 Feb. 1855) No. 11. J. B. (26 May 1855) No. 12. P. F.(21 Feb. IS.-ir.) No. 13. C. 11.(10 Apr. 1855) No. 14. G. II. (20 Sept. 1854) No. 15. G. B. (9 May 1854) No. 16. 11. H.(3 Jan. 1855) No. 17. H.W.(l20ct.l865) No. 18. W. S. (OOct. 1854) No. 19. R.G. (7Nov. 1855) N0.20. G. M. (7 Nov. 1855) No. 21. G.B.(2G July 1855) No. 22. W.R.(21 May 18.55) No. 23. T.B. (22 Oct. 1855) No. 24. J. S. (26 July 1855) No. 25. R. K. (7N0V. 1855) No. 26. J. S. (28 Aug. 1855) Ko.27. W.C.(18Sept.l854) No. 28. 'W.E.(22Nov.l855) No. 29. H.W(22Nov.l855) No. 30. J.J (27 Nov. 1855) No. 31. U.C. (<) May 1855) No. 32. H. U. (7 Nov. 18.>5) No. 33. W.A. (7 Nov. 1855) Date of Inforiiiatioii, and by whom afforded. 1 Oct. 1855; No. 2. 1 Oct. 1855 ; No. 1. 1 Oct. 1855; No. 1. 4 Oct. 1 4 Oct. 1 21 Oct. 21 Oct. and 21 Dec. himself and R.R. and 2 1 Dec. himself and W. P. and 2 1 Dec. himself and W. P. 855 ; himself 855 ; Iiimself | 1855; himself ' 1855; himself Abstract of Particulars from Letters, jic. 23 Oct. 1855; himself 23 Oct. and 4 Nov. 18.')5 ; himself and W. P., No. 8. 24 Oct. and 21 Dec. 185o ; himself and No. 2. 24 Oct. and 21 Dec. 1855 ; himself and No. 2. 24 Oct. 1855; by J. W.. No. 10. 24 Oct. and 21 Dec. 1855; by Nos. 2 and 10. 30 Oct. 1865 ; return- ed to this place. 30 Oct. 18o5; bv G. [{., No. 14. 30 Oct. 1855; by G. U., No. 14. I Nov. 1855; himself 14 Nov. 1855; visited the prison. 17 Nov. 1855; himself 17 Nov. and 30 Dec. IKoo ; himself and R. (;., No. 19. 17 Nov. and 15 Dec. 1855 ; seen by the principal schoolmas- ter. 20 Nov. 1855; himself 20 Nov. 1855; himself 27 Nov. 1855; himself 27 Nov. 1855; himself 27 Nov. and 31 Dec. 1855 ; himself, and by R. K., No. 25. 30 Nov. 1855; himself 8 Dec. 1855; himself 1 Dec. 1 855 ; himself II Dec. 1855; himself 12 Deu. 1855; himself 15 Deo. 1855; himself and others. 15 Dec. 1855; himself Doing well in every respect. Earning 22*. per week by workinjr at the trade which he learned while in this place. Doing well in every respect, and has been in the same situation during the whole period. Conduct most satisfactory in every way. In full employment. I'ully employed, and doing well. Fully employeU and doing well. Doing well in every respect, and earning 21 .?. per week. Fully employed. Conduct satisfactory. Dointr well. Sentenced to 2 1 years' transportation for house- breaking. The same sentence for the same crime as No. 10. Doing well. Fully employed. Doing well. Fully employed. Licence revoked, and returned to this place because ho was put into prison for being out late at night, and for burning his licence. Conduct satisfactory in every ies])ect. Earning 2 s. C> d. per day. Sentenced to four years' ])eniil servitude for stealing an overcoat. Working at the traile which hi' learned in Park- hurst, in his parents' home. Looking well, and doing very well. Was well received by his family, relations, and friends. Doing well. Has ffot a srood situation in his n.ative town. A sedate looking lad. Giving satisfaction to his employers. Doing well, and earning 15 s. per week. A sailor bov. Has hound himself i'or four years. Doing well in every respect. Earning above 20 s. per week. Informing us of his kindly reception by friends and relations. Doing well, and keeping' good company. Conducting himself well, and giving his master entire satisfaction. E.xpressing great thankfulness for kindnesses received while in Parkhurst. Doing well. Doing well. Fully employed. Doing well. Fully employed. Conduct satisfactory in every respect. lias aided his mother by sending her money. Doing well, and very happy. Workiu"- with his brother. SELEC r COMMITTEE ON TRANSPORTATION. Gi Initials of PriTOiiers, and Dut J of Discbarge. Mo. 34. J. H. (15 Aug. 1854) No. 35. T.J. (7 Nov. 1855) No. .30. J.M.C.(28Aug.l855) No. 37. J. N. (7 Nov. 1855) No. 38. W. M. A. (22 Not. 1805). No. 39. W. H.(3Aug:.1855) No. 40. B.n. (20 July 1855) No. 41. G. E. B. (21 Aug. 1855). No. 42. J.U.(19NoT.1855) No. 43. J. W. (4 Dec. 1855) Date uf Information, and by wbom affordi'd. 15 Dec. 1855; by W. A., No. 33. 15 Dec. 1855; by W. A., No. 33. 14 Dec. 1855; by J. W., No. 43. 16 Dec. 1H55; himself 21 Dec. 1855; by R. R., No. 2. 24 Dec. 1865 ; visited the prison. 24 Dec. 1855; by W. H., No. 39. 24 Dec. 1855; by W. H., No. 39. 27 Dec. 1855; seen by the chaplain. 31 Dee. 1855; himself Abstract of Partlciilais from Litters, ic. Capt. D. 0' linen. 28 April 1856. Doing- well in his .situation. Working at the trade which he was taught at Parkhurst. Doing well. Going on steadily, and doing well. Doing well. Earning 12 s. per week. Earning by his situation 10 s. per week. Conduct .satisfactory in every respect. Fully employed. Conduct satisfactory in every respect. Fully employed. Conduct satisfactory in every respect. Fully employed. Conduct satisfactory in every respect ; has been intlie same situation during the whole period. Doing well, and working ut the trade which he was taujjrht in Parkhurst. 647. Have you a summary of the contents of that table ? — I have. 648. Can you state it shortly to the Committee? — Of the l.')l in the table who have been discharged, and whose circumstances are known, 1 34 have turned out satisfactorily; 17 have not turned out satisfactorily. This brings the dis- cliarges down to the end of the year 1855. 64^. Have vou another table mIucIi vou wish to bring before the Committee : —Yes. 6.',o. "NA'hat is that other table* — In addition to those 151 whom I have men- tioned, there have been 148 discharged, to the 31st of December 1855, witli tickets of leave, of whom nothing has been heard. The total number*, therefore, including those who were first mentioned, and including the latter, amount -to 299. " ();, I . Mr. B. Denlso7i.'] Between what ])eriods '? — From the passing of the Act up to tiie 31st of December 1855. (i.^-j. Rather more than two years? — About two years and a half t\')3- Cliairman.~\ Can you give the Committee information as to the licences revoked with regard to the Parkhurst boys? — Yes. 6.54. Will yoii be so good as to state any information in your possession upon that subject ? — There have been 9 licences revoked. 6/55. Mr. B. Denison.~\ Out of how many? — Out of 299 that I have mentioned. (),",6. CJiairman.^ Are there any cases of prisoners visiting Parkhurst again after their leleat^c ? — Yes. In order to show what the boys themselves thoiiglit of their treatment at Parkhurst, I recpiesced the governor, INIr. Hall, to send me any information he miglit possess of those w!io had gone to tbe place to visit it after they had been reh.'ased ; of these there were three seamen in the Royal Navy ; one of them once, one twice, and one five or six times ; four collier seamen, one of them twice, one three times, and one frequmitly ; si.\ soldiers, two of them tn ice, and a third repeatedly ; three other licensed prisoners in Parkhurst barracks have recog- nized prison ofKcers, and have sjsoken to them when they could do so without attracting the notice of their comrades. Mr. liall adds, " I have seen letters from four or five other prisoners now on licences, in which they say t'liey wish to revisit Parkhurst as soon as they can find time, and afford the expense of the journey ;" that is very satisfactory. ()57. From vhat you have observed of the ojieration of the jjresent Act, into which tlie Committee are now in(|uiriiig, have yuu any suggestions which you think it desirable to make with regard to its alteration? — In the first place, it is clear that prisoners with licences who have gone on board ship, or otherwise left the country, have done so in breach of the Act. which requires that these persons shall be kept in the country; I tliink it right to mention this to the Com- mittee, to show that the Act is broken, and that it is desirable that the law shouhl be altered ; I refer to the 9th section. 6)8. What alteration would you suggest that, it is desirable to make? — In the •;9th section, after the words "to be at large," 1 would leave out the words "in the 0.42. u 3 United 62 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE Capu D. O'Brien. United Kingdom and the Channel Islands, or in such part thereof respectively,' and I would confine it to these words, " or to any punishment substituted for 38Ai)nli856. transportation l)y this Act, a licence to be at large, as in sucli licence shall be exprc^ssed." 659. Is this the form of licence now issued {handing a Paper to the JVitness) ? —Yes. fi6o. Will you read it r — This is issued to a convict who is not restricted to a particular district. [77in to the length of their sentence, or to the crime for which they are confined ? — Nothing is considered Mith respect to their antecedents, but according to their capabilities (iSj. iVre the boys who are being taught trades, taught separately or together? — 'I'ogether. ti88. Then they practise agriculture and handicrafts in a body together r — Together. 689. There is no separate system ? — Yes, there is a separate system. In stating how the prisoners received their licences, I mentioned that one stop was a pro- bationary ward. When a boy is sent by me from Millbank jirison to Parkhurst, he is placed in separation for four months, in what is termed the Probationary Ward. During that time he does not labour in association ; he attends school in association ; but otherwise he is not mixed up with his fellow prisoners. 690. Are they allowed to choose their own employment ? — No. 691. You do not make any difference as regards their labour in proportion to the term of their sentence, or their previous character r — No. 692. So that a boy sentenced to a long imprisonment, having been convicted of a very serious crime, and a boy sentenced to a shorter imprisonment who has been convicted of a less serious crime, receive, in point of fact, precisely the same treatment ? — Precisely the same. 693. jNIr. Adderlcy.^ Are you aware that there is a class of persons always on the look out for boys on their discharge, with the object of training them and employing them for thieving purposes ? — I have seen a report from a committee at Aberdeen stating that very startling fact. 694. Will you state briefly what you know upon that point? — It is generally well known that the Aberdeen Schools of Reform were exceedingly well managed, and very successful ; a committee was formed to incjuire into this circumstance, and they obtained information that there were persons pursuing precisely the same course to get boys again into difficulties which had been pursued by the committee to get them out of their difficulties ; that whereas Mr. Watson and his friends had encouraged the boys to leave the streets and to behave well, other persons banding together encouraged the boys to leave the schools, to pillage to a great extemt, and to bring what they pillaged to them. They appear to have systematically organised tiieir school for thieves, for training them up, sendini^ them out to steal, pointing out to them where the property was to be obtained, and how they might ' possess it ; in a word, these establishments were training schools for the purpose of initiating and employing thieves in their profession, and preparing them to carry SELECT COMMIITEE ON TRANSPORTA'J ION. 65 cany it 011 Avitli profit and safety to themselves and to their employers. The con- Capt. D. O'Brien. sequence lias been, tliat there have been a great ininiber more committals latterly than there had been before tliis combination to which I allude. 28 April 1356. (•9.5. Are you aware of a similar system existing elsewhere ? — I do not know of my own knowledge of any one existing elsewhere, but I have no doubt there is. 6q(). So tliat boys, especially on their discharge from prison, are not only liable to fall amongst their old associates, but into such an organised trap on the part of old adult thieves, the greater number of them ? — Yes. 6q-. And if there is no benevolent agency to provide such boys with honest employment, there is probably a very efficient agency to provide them with dishonest employment r — Certainly. (iqS. ("an you state roughly what is the average age of boys on their discharge from Parkhurst ? — Between 18 and 22. 6()(). .Mr. Deedes.] With reference to that subject, do you know of your own knowledge, or ha\e you reason to believe, that among persons so seeking to entrap boys when they are discharged, any ticket of leave men or convicts who have gone tiirough their period of imprisonment are employed in adopting that course? — I do not. 700. With regard to labour, you gave an answer just now to a question of the Xol)le Lord o])posite with respect to different kinds of labour ; I think you said ]ireviously on this sufiject, that so far as handicrafts were taught at Parkhurst, the boys did not arrive at a sufficient amount of proficiency to enable them to earn a livelihood when they came out? — I did ; and that is true as regards handicrafts; but a l)oy is rendered very handy ;is a farm-servant, by his knowledge, for instance, of making bricks ; and he would be useful from knowing a little of tailoring, and so forth ; but 1 believe that none of those boys, or at any rate very few of them, would be able to earn their liveliiiood sitting on the shop-board. 701. Then it would follow that the degree of j)roficiency which they obtain in learning anything at Parkhurst, to enable them to get an honest livelihood when they go out, nuist be principally or almost entirely in agricultural em|)loyment ? — Principally. 702. Lord JVaas.l I think the returns show that of the number of boys who are sent out, very few find their way to agricultural labour ; the greater number of them either go to sea, or are employed in mines or trades r — Those that I have mentioned to the Connnittee have gone to sea, and have been employed in mines ; but those were chiefly boys who had no friends. I cannot quite answer the question. 703. You cannot tell the Committee what proportion of the boys who are dis- charged find their way to agricultural labour ? — No, I cannot. 704. Mr. Wic/iham.^ I thought that it had been the especial object of Park- burst to teach these boys some trade by which they were to get their living when they were discharged from prison ; that does not seem to have been the principal object from your evidence to-day? — It is an object, but they are not there suffi- ciently long to become proficient. 705. HaAC not a great many boys been sent there instead of being confined in the local prison, with the idea that they would be better instructed in their trade, Avhatever trade ihey were to follow, than they would have been elsewhere? — And I believe they are ; but still I think that the time that they are at Parkhurst is not sufficiently long to make them good handicraftsmen. 706. Plave not a great many boys had sentence of transportation jiassed upon them to enable them to be sent to Parkhurst to learn a trade - — I believe such is the case. 707. Still, notwithstanding that, they go away from Parkhurst before they have obtained a sufficient knowledge of that trade? — That is true. 708. Mr. Dcedes.'\ I understand you lo say, that in your opinion of the adults, you think about 80 per cent, on returning from ])unishment gain an honest live- lihood, but oidy 70 per cent, of the juveniles ? — I guess at those two numbers. 709. It is a mere guess ? — A mere guess ; as yet we have not obtained sufficient information to justify me in stating anything jxisitive on the subject. 710. Mr. B. Doiisoii.'] Ihese parties respecting whom you have been giving evidence, were all parties who were previously sentenced to transjiortation, because the Act has only been in operation two years; and therefore those who have been released bv tickets of leave were previouslv sentenced to transnortatiou? 0.42. " I ' ' —All •» 66 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE Capt. D. l/Brien. — AH those who have been discharged with tickets of le.ivc had been |ireviously " sentenced to transportation. s8 April 1856. -, , \\'t.re all the licences ■vvhicli have been granted Avithin the last two years rcsjiecting which you have given evidence, licences to ])arties who were previously sentenced to transjiortation ? — Entirely. 71 i. Therefore, the Act of 18.')3, as regards those who were sentenced to ]ienal servitude, has not come practically into operation ; at least you have bad no evidence of the result of that Act. Have any jjcrsons receivetl licences wlio have been sentenced under the Act of 1853? — I believe none. 713. Then, as I understand it, but 1 may be wrong, tickets of leave are m>t to be granted to jiarties who have been sentenced to penal servitude ? — Such 1 un- derstand to he the case. 7 1 4. Then is it true that tickets of leave are no longer to be granted to anv j)er- sons ? -According to the ])resent regulation, tickets of leave arc not to be granted to any persons except those who were sentenced to transportation beibro the last Act was passed. 715. Tickets of leave may still be granted to parties who are in England, under sentence of transj)ortation ; but no tickets of leave are to l)e granted to those who are in custody, sentenced to penal servitude ? — Just so ; but a sentence of trans- portation is also enacted by the late law. 716. Mr. K. Set/mer.] Are we to understand that tickets of leave, according to the regulations which are now made, are to be granted only to ])ersons who were under sentence of transportation in the year 1853? — Yes. 717. I\lr. Adderlei/.] But no licence will be granted 10 any prisoner under sentence, either of transportation or of penal servitude, sul)serincipal matron at Brixton, who knows them intimately, considered each M'oman's case" (that is, the case of each of these 400 women first received), " in respect of her crime, previous imprisonment, age, conduct in jirison, disposition, and character. The state of each woman's health has been carefully looked into by the medical officer with the view to this report. The following has been the result: — We find the prisoners range themselves, as it were, in the four fol- lowing divisions: 1st. The well-disposed; 2d. the badly-disposed, but cautious; 3d. The impetuous; 4tli. The utterly bad and reckless. The 1st division consists of various ages above 20, who have either not been in prison before, or perhaps only once, have been inhabitants of country places, have been ill-used or deserted ; who, in fact, are as deserving of j)ity as of punishment, and whose conduct in ])rison is e.xemplarv : these women bear im})risonment without complaint, and are industrious ; but in time they become depressed, and are disheartened under long confinement. They form 18 \wt cent, of the whole, and 24 per cent, of them are, through sickness, inca])able of undergoing penal servitude for tliree years." Each case having been minutely gone into by the medical officer, myself and the deputy superintendent. "Keeping such women in prison for their full sentences, is surely unnecessary as regards improvement, and dangerous as regards health. The 2d division is composed of women usually above 24 years old ; they come from large towns, have been often in prison, or if not, have been receivers of stolen goods, utterers of base coin, trainers of thieves and prostitutes, keepers of brothels, &c. They bear their imprisonment without much complaint, are fre- quently industrious, and always clean ; they keep within the line of good conduct themselves, but frequently lead others into mischief. They form 40 per cent, of the whole ; and 29 per cent, of them are, through sickness, incapable of under- going penal servitude for three years. Keeping such women in prison for their full sentences would be desirable, as they are totally undeserving of j)ity ; but then it is doubtful whether they make any appreciable approach towards reforma- tion ; and when it appears that so large a proportion as 29 per cent, have alread lost their health, it would seem unwise to insist upon the full period of their ser- vitude beinjr exacted from them. Besides, if a diminution of time be accorded to one class, it would be a denial of justice to exact the full time from another, unless brought about by misconduct after conviction. The 3d division consists of women who are impetuous ; with violent passions, not absolutely bad, but very difficult to restrain or manage, though susceptible of kindness ; capable of committing any outrage, but who will rescue a favourite officer at any personal risk if attacked by others, provided the quarrel be one in which they themselves are SELECT COMMITTEE ON TRANSPORTATION. 69 are not mixed; their ages are from 17 to 25; they are almost all from large Ca'pt. D. O'Brien. towns, and have been prostitutes ; many of lliem have seen good days, and have had kind ])arcnts, whom they left for profligate ])uri)Oses. They are generally 28 April 185G. idle, and frequently indolent ; few of them even know how to thread a needle, though here and there among them are found individuals Avho excel in fancy- work. These women do best in separation, because when associated they encou- rage each other in all species of irregularities. It is essential to their well-being tliat their minds should be kept as evenly-balanced as possible ; they thrive only in quiet ; punishment, when often repeated, tends to harden them ; but encourage- ment is necessary to train them to industry. With them the badge system answers admirably ; they are much influenced in their conduct by the contemplation of what may be in prospect on receiving their discharge, and they dwell on this sub- ject more even than on the length of their imprisonment ; they sometimes say ' "What is the use of our leaving prison, when we shall be obliged to do what we have doner' And they sit desponding in their cells till they almost lose their reason ; when in this condition, a feeling of recklessness, amounting to despair, conies over diem, and they will smash, their windows and destroy their cell furniture under its influence. They form 25 i)er cent, of the female convicts, and 24 per cent, of them are not in a condition to bear three years' im])risonment ; there is always a fear that women in this division may descend into a lower one, and become incorrigible, Avhile at the same time there is a hope, \\hich is occasionally fulfilled, that they may become reformed. After what has been said of tliese convicts, it is evident that the prospect of release before the termination of tlieir sentences is very essential; more so than with any others. The last division consists of those who are utterly vicious ; they are between 16 and 20 years of age, and a few between 50 and 60, who have been continually in and out of prison ; they are neither industrious nor clean, and their conduct is invariably bad. They are reckless as to the length of their imprisonment, and they ought to receive the whole of it, if only that others should be deterred from followir.g their examples. They form 11 per cent, of the entire number, and 27 per cent, of them are unable to bear three years' imprisonment. I have tabu- lated the foregoing observations as to numbers and health, as follows : DIVISION. Per Cent, of Total Numbers. 18 P er Cent, of Sick in each Division. 1st - — _ _ _ - 24 2d - - - - 46 - - 29 3d - - - - 25 - - 24 4th - - 11 - - 27 Since I drew up the above table, I have received a letter from Mr. Rendle, to the effect, that having corrected the first list of 400 women, he finds ])risoners in delicate health --__-____ 103 Deaths __-__-__.- 5 Total 108 Now here we have just 27 per cent, of the whole already pronounced incapable of undergoing above three years (for such Mr. Rendle means by ' dehcate') ; and when it is remembered, as 1 have before shown, that a great many of the 400 are far from having completed their three years in imprisonment, what would be the results if the whole number sentenced to penal servitude of four, six, eight, ten years, were ordered to be imprisoned their full timer 1st. A quarter of the whole would be discharged on medical grounds before the expiration of their respective sentences ; 2d. Another quarter would be so broken down as to be unfit to support themselves when discharged ; 3d. The punishment would depend upon the physical capacity of tlie woman to bear it ; 4th. Feigned illness would be resorted to extensively ; 5th. Many of the prisoners in the second and third *^'42. I 3 divisions 70 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE Cupt. D. O'Brkn. flivisioiis would descend into the lowest division, which would be best represented by a den of wild l)oas;ts." 28 .April i8,-,P. 74,''c ^^^s that report one in whicli yourself and all the other gentlemen, whose names you have mentioned, concurred ? — Yes. 746. And it was sent as the opinion of you all to the Home Office, was it? — It was ; if necessary, I could produce the misdical officer's rej)ort for this year on the same subject. 747. That medical officer being one of the gentlemen who concurred in this report ? — Yes. 748. Have you any further information to give the Committee relating to the system at Brixton which you think it advisable for them to have ? — A\'ith regard to gratuities, the gratuities have been granted in somewhat of a diflerent mode from the others ; the gratuities are not so large, and it has been desirable to give them in different proportions; a woman on her discharge would receive at the outside a post-office order for 2/.; that would be supposed to keep her for two months; if she was entitled to "21. more, she would receive that additional '11. at the end of two months; if she was entitled to a larger sum, then slie would receive the balance by post-office order at the end of an additional two months ; in each case a certificate of good conduct and well-doing being recpiired from the clergyman of the parish where she went, or a magistrate, or some person of equal resj)ectability, vouching for her being well-conducted. 1 should add, that as it is very material that these women's characters should not be damaged by saying publicly that they have been convicts, the chaplain has volunteereil to commu- nicate with the l)arty who is referred to, telling him that a certain woman, say A. orB., will call upon him at a particular time, if he Mill be good enough to keep her name and the ol)ject of her visit secret, and then to send forward the j>roper testimony of her respectability. 749. Have you any information with regard to the subsequent conduct of those who have been released on licences?— T have, and I am sorry to say that it is very bad. 1 believe that a great many of these women, es2)ecially the older ones, will sooner or later find their way back to imprisonment. It is evident that they are differently circumstanced altogether from males. Most of these women have been prostitutes, and when they want money they go upon the streets, and fall l)ack, if they clioose it, upon their old lives, and at once money is put into their pockets. I have it as a fact that there are some persons, keej)ers of low lodging-houses, who take in these women who have tickets of leave, for a short time, and when the second instalment of their gratuity comes to be paid, they seize it, and turn the woman out of doors. She has no refuge, no ])lace to go to, no means of getting a livelihood, but by walking the streets, and being a prosti- tute. That is the case with too many of them. It is a great pity that there are not some means of sending these women out of the country by emigration. 750. Do you mean under a system of transportation? — No; 1 think a system of transportation never will do for women. There was a question of sending some of these women as transports to Western Australia, but that has not taken place, and I am very glad of it. I conceive that the worst thing which can happen to a colony is having a number of these female convicts sent out to it; they are mothers of the rising generation, and I am perfectly convinced, after reading a good deal upon the subject, and thinking a good deal upon the subject, that the great demoralisation of New South Wales and Van Diemen's Land arose for more in respect of the mothers than of the fathers of the colonists. 751. Lord Naas.l W^hat are you to do with them ; you speak of sending them out ; where would you send them to ? — I do not speak of their being sent as trans- ports, but I speak of assistance being given to them to emigrate when their inqiri- sonment is over. I am sure that the younger ones, so long as they remain in this country, will sooner or later, for the most part, at least, go back upon the streets, and do that which they have been doing before ; and I should be very glad if anything could save them from such a late. With regard to the older ones, it would be very undesirable to send them abroad as emigrants ; they would make bad emigrants- They must be kept at home ; though 1 have no doubt they will return to their former lives, and many of them will probably end their days in prison. 752. Have you given your attention to the mode in which this system of emi- gration for female convicts could be carried on ? — I cannot see that there would be any difficulty in emigrating these women, provided they are not over 30 years of SELECT COMMITTEE ON TRANSPORTATION. 71 of age, and are capable of earning their livelihood, and provided their conduct is Capt. D. 6£Weration of the law, is a question for the Government to decide. For my jtart, I do not see why they should not. I am satisfied that the money would be well sj)ent, and I have no reason to believe that the colonies would ol)ject to it. 7.5.5. Lord Naas.~\ If a society of this kind were established purely for sending out convict women to the colonies, do not you think that they would be recog- nized on arriving in the colony just as easily as if they were sent out bv the Government :• — 1 think that a great many of them would be recognized, but I do not think it would interfere with their after-life ; I think they would glide into the large stream of emigrating women. Of course individuals would be known here and there, but tfien all they have to do is, to change their locahty. Mary Jones, sentenced to transportation as a convict, would not be recognized as Marv Jones, who might be hired as a servant 20 miles from the ]dace where she landed. 7.56. VV liat proportion of women of the whole number of convicts do you think would be eligible for such a society to deal with ? — I cannot give you an accurate idea, because I have had no communication upon that subject. 7.57. You said that you thought there would be a very small number? — I think there would be a small number, because I would confine the emigration to women mIio are under 30 years of age, who are capable of earning their bread, and who receive good characters from the jirison where they have been. 7.58. That M'ould hardly be a greater proportion than the first class of 18 per cent, to whom you alluded as the best class of Momen now in prison ?— I should say, that it would not exceed 50 per cent. ; but it is a guess rather than an estimate. 7.50. Then the large innn])er who remained would be still subject to all the disadvantages to which they are sulyect under the present system ? — Yes. 760. Reformation of a female convict at home is almost impossible, I suppose, from the circumstances which attend her discharge under the jiresent svsteni I — 1 fear it is ; everything depends upon the hands which she gets into after she is discharged. 7t)!. The difficulty, I suppose, of procuring employment for a female convict, is far greater than it would be either for a boy or for an adult male ? — Ear greater ; women are not hired unless they have characters to produce, and a woman jiroducing a character from a jirison is not likely to be hired ; I am quite aware that there are several establishments in the country for the reception of prisoners ; there is one at Wakefield, which is very successful, but there has been as yet no establishment formed for the reception of convicts ; the women that we are sjn aking of have been convicted over and over again; and 1 very muc!i doubt whether respectable ])ersons Mill take Momen who have been convicled over and over again into their houses, and employ them as servants in their families. W hat reuKiins, then, for these women to do : They become servants in disreputable 0.42. 1 4 places; 72 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE Cai>t.D. O'Brien, yhvcs ; tliev Ixh-oiik' servants in Ijiotliols ; in ])iaccs where xitolcn goods are receive\in-vs wIktc tlicre is vice and poverty; uliero tliere is all that is 28 April 1856. iniinoral. 762. Do yon tluMi hc'licve, tliat the cessation of transi)ortatioii created a jrix-at a(Ulitional diHicidty uitli re,<>-ard to tliese women? — An iinniense difficulty; it created all the ditficulty; I do not think that the ohl system of transportation of ■women was good ; indeed I have said that it was not ; and I believe that the injuries done to the colony were excessive ; but the relief afforded to the mother country was in j)ro])ortion. 763. Supposing a place could be I'ound to which these wcinien could be sent, do you think that any modified system of transportation could be invented which would hold out greater opportunities of reformation than the old svscem did ! I think not, for this reason: a woman must go out without a stV^ma on her character, or else she goes out as branded ; I tiiink the brand of transportation is fatal to her when she arrives, and, as 1 have said, 1 think it fatal to tlu- colon v afterwards, if numbers are sent. '64. Still she would not be subject in a colony to be returned to these nests of infamy and crime in the same way as she is in this country : — Certainlv not. 765. She would escape that portiim of her danger .- — She would. 766. Mr. B. DoiisonA At jjresent, the rule is not to transport them at all? — Exactly so. 767. The colonies object to the women as much as to the men ? — Yes. 768. Supj)osin<:' that one of these societies were established, do you think that it could be established without its being ])ublicly known that it was established, and that it was part of its object tliat after a certain time it should take some means or another by Mhich it could send out these unfortunate women to some colony ? — I have no doubt that such information would ooze out, but I do not tiiink it would be to such an extent as materially to interfere with the course of emigration. 7(19. Supposing that you had half a dozen, or half a score women whom you Manted to send out to any one of these cohtnies, how could you get those women out in an emigrant ship without its l)eing known to the other enn'gi'ants that they had been women of bad character, and how could ymi get them landed and jmt into occupation without its also being known that they had been of bad character? — It would undoubtedly be known to some extent, perhaps to a considerable extent ; but considering the class of people who go out, I do not know, and I do not think that the people on board would hold themselves altogether aloof from them. 770. Do you believe that half a dozen or half a score women of that descrip- tion could be sent out in an emigrant ship, without something or other about their previous character being known to the emigrants on board that ship r — I think not ; but I think that the other emigrants would not care very much about it. 771. Do you think that the other emigrants would allow a lot of women of that sort to go out, without making some complaint of their feelings being outraged, and perhajis in the end puldishing it when they got to their j)lace of debarkation ? — I do not think they would be likely to say anything about it on their hmding, unless some personal quarrels on board led to their promulgating the facts in the colony through spite. 772. A society of that descrij)tion might, if they thought proper, find abundance of women unfortunately who had served their whole time, and who were therefore liberated by process of law, and to whom it would l)e a great act of charity to take them in Land and send them out ; so that, at all events, they would not go out literally as convicts; but the question would be whether they could go out without their ])revious characters being known ? — I think it is quite practicable, as the numbers would be so few in comparison to the whole number who emigrate ; but it would require to be judiciously managed, no doubt. 773. At all events nobody would have a right to interfere with the acts and deeds of such a society, j)rovided the parties had served their time in prison .- — Just so. 774. Mr. Atklcrhj/.} I ])resume that in such a system as you are now talking of, the emigration would not lie directed to colonies particularly, but the emigra- tion would be to any country ? — I should question the propriety of systematically sending out these bad women to foreign countries not colonies ; which might raise awkward international (piestions. 775. ^Vhy SELECT COMMITTED ON TRANSPORTATION. 73 775. Why do you j^articularly direct such a l)oon to the Euglish colonies? — Capt. £>. O'ZJrien. I do not look upon it as a boon to tlie colonies, but I look upon it, first of all, as ■ the best way of fi^etting rid of women who, in after-life, M'ould be a pest to society 28 April iPj5. here ; secondly, I think it a boon to the women themselves, being saved from the life which I have endeavoured to describe ; and tliirdly, I do not think that any great injury could be inflicted upon the colony by these women being sent out in the small numbers which I think would be sent. 776. I do not see how any one of those reasons would ])articularly direct such a system of emigration to a colony in preference to any other country ; would not your object be equally well met if the voluntary agency was directed to sending these women to any other country where they might have a new life open to them: — Before that was done, I think it would be necessary to get the consent of the foreign country to the system. 777. I understood your proj)osition to be, that this system was not in any way to be conducted by Government, but simply by the benevolence of voluntary subscribers ; in that case, what necessity would there be for any such independent individuals negotiating with the government of any country to which they were sendin<' out enii"Tants? — None wliatever. 778. Would not the chief merit of your plan be, that it vrould not implicate our Government or our country in any way with the government or countiT ta which such women might be sent ? — I do not think it would ; but my observation was directed to the fact of emigration of this description being sanctioned by the Government, or the Government being a party to it. 779. Are you aware that such voluntary agency as you have now suggested is much more largely made use of by other countries in Europe than by England ? — I do not know the facts sufficiently to enable me to form a reasonable conclusion. 780. Would such a system as you have now suggested be equally applicable to male convicts as to female ? — I think not. Jovis, r die Mail, 1856. MEMBERS PRESENT. Mr. Baines. Sir John Pakington. Lord Naas. Mr. Adderley. Mr. Serjeant O'Brien. Mr. Wickham. Mr. John Wynne. Mr. Massey. Mr. Beckett Denison. Mr. Deedes. Mr. Moncklon Milnes. Mr. Ker Seymer. The Right Hon. MATTHEW TALBOT BAINES, in the Chair. Captain Donatus O'Brien, called in ; and further Examined. 781. C/iairmnn.'] IS there any information which you wish to give the Com- Capt. Z>. O'Brien. mittee in addition to that which you gave them when you were last here? — Yes. I Ma)' i8r6. 782. Be so good as to state what it is? — I wish to tell the Committee that female convicts are sent in the first instance to JMillbank Prison in a state of probation, before they are sent on to Brixton ; and it is intended that after passing through Brixton Prison they shall go on to an establishment at Fulham, which is now ready to receive them ; the whole arrangement is detailed in a notice to female convicts, sanctioned by the Secretary of State, which I hold in my hand. 783. Will you read it ?— [The Wilness read the same, asfolloius :'] 042. K Notice Capt. D.O'Biien. 74 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE Notice lo Female Convicts. M i8<:fi Transportation for certain offences having been abolished by Act of Parliament, and ■^ ' certain periods of imprisonment of much shorter duration, under the term " Penal Servi- tude," havinc, been substituted in piat'e of the sentences of seven and ten years' transporta- tion, which had been usually awarded, no remission, as a sieneral rule, of any part of the term of penal servitude will be granted; the period of detention in ]>lace ot a longer sentence of transportation having been settled by law. The Secretary of State will, however, be prepared to consider the case of any prisoner whose conduct may lis the subject of special reconnnendatioi). The Secretary of State is also desirous, as a sieneral rule, of holding out encouragement to good cor.duct by establishing successive stages of discipline, to each of which some special privileges will be attached. Prisoners of good conduct, and maintaining a character for willing industry, will, by this rule, be enabled, after certain fixed periods, to obtain the higher stages, and gain the privileges attached to them. For the present, and until further orders, the following rules wdl be observed : — The first stage of penal disci])line will be earned out at JMillbaiik Prison, where two classes will be established ; viz., the probation class, and the third class. The second stage of discipline will be carried out at Brixton, where the prisoners will be divided into the first, second, and third classes. The thiid stage of discipline and industrial training prior to discharge will be carried out at Burlington House, Fulliam, for those prisoners who, by their exemplary conduct m the first and second stages, appear deserving of being removed to that establishment. Captain O'Brien.] Millbank Prison under this arrangement liolds from 180 to 200 female convicts ; Brixton holds about f!40 ; Fulham probably will hold about 200 ; the accommodation at present at Fulham, 1 believe, does not extend to beyond 50, but that accommodation will be increased till it amounts to al)out the number that I mention. 784. Does every female convict, according to the present arrangement, go in the first instance to Millbank ? — Yes. 785. Then to Brixton? — Then to f3rixton. 786. And ultimately it is intended that she shall go to Fulham r — If her conduct be exemplary. 787. How is that Fulham Institution supported ? — By Government. 788. How long has it existed? — It has only just come into existence; I am now preparing a list of the first female convicts to be draughted there, and they ■will be sent in a few days. 789. None, then, have yet goner— Not yet. 790. For how many do you intend that it shall be calculated ? — Much will depend upon the number of female convicts who ought to be sent there ; that is to say, whose conduct in their earlier stages will have been sufficiently good to enable them to go to Fulham, which will be rather in the nature of a refuge than of a prison. 791. Is there any other point to which you wish to draw our attention ? — Nothing. 792. Lord jVao.s.] What is the nature of tlie discipline which is proposed to be carried on at Fulham?— It will be mucli more lenient than that which exists at Brixton. 793. Is it to be conducted on the principle of association or of separation? — Of association. 794. Are the prisoners to be taught anything in the way of a trade or needlework 'I — Yes; the usual trades and occupations that a refuge can supply ; the better descriptions of needlework and washing. I cannot go into detail, because the establishment has not yet come into existence. 795. Will the diet be on a more generous scale than at Brixton ? — Yes ; as the female convicts progress in I he way that I have mentioned, the diet improves, and the discipUne is gradually relaxed to those whose conduct is good. 796. Will there be any means at Fulham for exercise in the open air ?— Con- siderable. 797. Are there large grounds attached? — The grounds are large and com- modious. 798. Sir/. Pakingto7i.] Who drew up this paper which you have read? — Who actuaUy drew it up I do not know, but it was submitted to the Secretary of State, Sir George Grey, who approved of it. 799- Is SELECT COMMITTEE ON TRANSPORTATION. 75 799. Is it issued by the authority of the Secretary of State ?— Yes. Capt.Z). O'Brien. 800. 1 find in this paper these words : " For the present and until further orders, the foUowins; ruies will be observed : The first stage of penal discipline 1 May 1856. will be carried out at Millbank Prison, where two classes will be established ; viz., the probation class and the third class." I wish to ask you, first of all, what period of time do these two stages at Millbank occupy ; is it fi.xed, or does it vary ? — It is fixed; tlie first occupies four months ; the second occupies six months ; it is fixed as to the probation ; not fixed as to the other class, because the female convict in the other class, if she conducts herself improperly, is likely to be sent back into the probation class. 801. Do you name six months as the maximum of the second period? — Six months is the minimum. 802. That is to say, every female prisoner will be detained at Millbank the minimum period of 10 months; four in the first class, and six in the second? — Yes. I have a notice to the female convicts in Millbank Prison, which contains the information that you desire. If you will permit me, I will put it in, 803. Will you read itr — [The Witness read the same, as follows .-] Notice to Female Convicts. Millbank Proljation Class. 1. All prisoners, on reception, will be placed in the probation class in ordinary cases for a period of four months, and, in speciul cases, for a longer period, according to their conduct. 2. The strictest silence will be enforced with prisoners in this class on' all occasionSjIFand they will be occupied in picking coir, until, by their industry and good conduct, they may appear deserving of other employment. 3. No prisoner in the probation class will be allowed to receive a visit. 4. Every prisoner having passed through the probation class is liable to' be sent back thereto, and recommence the period of probation, upon the recommendation of the governor, and with the sanction of a director. 5. On leaving the probation class the prisoners will be received into the third class. Discipline of the Third Class. 6. No prisoner will be allowed to receive a visit until she has been well-conducted for the space of two months in the third class. 7. The strictest silence will be enforced with prisoners in this class on all occasions. 8. Prisoners, whose conduct has been exemplary in the third class for a period of six months, will be eligible for removal to Brixton when vacancies occur. 804. I understand from that statement, that the period of four months and the period of six months are both minimum periods ? — Yes. 805. Is there any limit to the extent to which those periods might be pro- longed, in the case of bad conduct ? — Bad conduct would keep them in those classes so long as they remained in the prison. 8o(). During both those periods, is or is not the woman in separate con- finement ? — During the period of |)robation she is in separate confinement; during the next period she is not necessarily in probation, though a portion of her time may be in probation ; that arises from the construction of Millbank Prison. The part of the prison these women occupy consists of three floors; the two lower floors have separate cells in them, the upper floor has large cells, and Avhen it is necessary to fill that part of the prison with female convicts, those who occupy the upper floor are not in separation ; they are two, or three, or four, as the case may be, in each large cell ; piisoners are selected for the upper floor in respect of time and good conduct combined. 807. I presume I may understand from what you say, that the first period, the probationary period, is always in separate confinement, and that the second period is or is not in separate confinement according to circumstances ? — Yes. 0.42. K 2 SoS. Those 76 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE Capt. D. O'Brien. 8o8. Those circumstances mainly depending upon the conduct of the woman ? —Yes. 1 May 1856. 3oQ Is the confinement at Brixton in separate cells? — No; for the most ])art in association ; Brixton Prison consists of the old part of the prison, which existed several years ago before we had anything to say to it, and a new part of the prison built under the superintendence of Colonel Jcbb. The old portion of the prison consists of 17.0 separate cells; the new portion of the prison consists of two wings, each capable of holding about 210 prisoners. 'Ihe wings con- sist of long corridors with small cells off them on either side, separated from each other by corrugated iron, and in four stages. Some of the women in Brixton are placed in the separate colls when their conduct is not good. The greater portion of the women occupy the large wing.*, whcrt; they are associated, and must be associated, from the description which I have endeavoured to give of the construction of those wings. 810. Can you say, what proportion of the women at Brixton are in separate confinement, and what proportion are in association "- — By the last return, which I hold in my hand, of the actual numbers, tliere were in the east wing 199 ])risoner8 in association ; in the west wing, 203 prisoners in association ; in the old prison cells which I have described, there were 97 in separation. 811. Separation or not turns upon conduct? — It turns upon conduct. 812. What does association mean in that case; how many are together ? — The cell doors are left open, and women sit at work at their cell doors; they sit in the door-ways, separated from each other by about four or five feet, the width of each cell, in fact. 813. Are they allowed to converse? — Yes, they are allowed to converse, pro- vided there is no improper or loud talking. 8 14. Then am I to understand you, that the wings in which association exists are architecturally the same as the wings in which separate confinement is carried on ? — No. 81,'',. What is the difference? — They are separated from each other by cor- rugated iron. 816. W^hat is architecturally the diflFerence between the separate confinement wings and the associated wings? — All the prisoners in the wings are asso- ciated, but there is the difference between the prisoners in the wings and the prisoners in the old cells, that the prisoners in the old cells are separated from each other by brickwork, and the arrangements are such, that they cannot talk to each other ; whereas in the wings they are closer together ; the doors are left open for the most part of the day, and they are not forbidderi to speak to each other, jirovideil they talk quietly and decently. 817. Can they converse with each other when the doors are closed? — They can, and they sometimes do ; but it is deemed an offence to do so. 818. I understand you to mean that the separation between the cells being of corrugated iron, sound might pass fron; one cell to the other? — iTes. 8 If). But still in each cell there is only room for one woman? — Just so. 820. How many women are sitting in this way at the doors of their cells in one wing; is there any separation into dilFerent apartments in one wing? — No. 821. How many would be in one wing? — Two hundred and ten, when full. 822. That would embrace all the floors, I suppose? — Four floors. 823. What is the occupation of the women in Brixton Prison? — For the most part, needlework ; in addition to that, washing ; they wash for Millbank Prison and for Pentonville Prison, as well as for themselves. 824. What exercise are they allowed r — Prisoners in the third class get an hour's exercise in the day ; in the second class, they are allowed to exercise for an hour and a half every day ; in both cases, when the weather perniits. 825. Lord iVaai.J Do they walk together ? — In the second and third classes they are allowed to exercise in pairs. 826. Sir J. Pakitigio)i.\ What is the exercising ground ; an open yard ? — A large yard, surrounded by the buildings of the prison. 827. With respect to the new establishment at Fulliam, what is the building ; is it a building newly erected, or is it a house that has been purchased? — I cannot give you so much information about it as Colonel Jebb, because he has been looking at it daily. I have only been there once. Colonel .Icbb will give you every information ; it is now under him, and under him solely. 828. It SELECT COMMITTEE ON TRANSPORTATION. / / 828. It is not yet occupied? — It is not yet occupied; but it will be occupied C&^t. D. O'Brien. in a few days. . 829. I understand j^ou to say tbat any details connected with that building, 1 May 1856. in any way, the Committee had better ascertain from Colonel Jebb : — If you please. 830. Docs the period, consisting of two parts, which is passed by female con- victs at Millbank, vary according to the length of the whole sentence ? — No. 831. The period at Millbank, then, would be the same, whether the sentence of transportation, for instance, were 7, or 10, or 15 years? — It would. 832. What is the length of the period passed at Brixton ; is it fixed, or does it vary? — It will vary as soon as the establishment at Fulham is opened, but to what extent I am unable to tell you. 833. Tlien has it hitherto been the practice that women, on their arrival at Brixton, have been kept there to the end of the whole sentence of penal ser- vitude ? — They have been kept there till their liberation on licence. 834. Under the former law of transportation, has it bem the practice to send women abroad ? — Yes. 83-;. Always ? — Always, except those who were invalids. 836. I wish to revert for a moment to your evidence on Monday about Park- hurst; Parkhurst, I think, is immediately under your care? — Yes. 837. Hitherto, I believe, up to a very recent period, Parkhurst has been reserved exclusively for boys sentenced to transportation? — Yes. 838. To what extent is that rule now modified ? — Prisoners sentenced to one year, ;ind between one year and two years, may be sent there by direction of the Secretary of State. At present, there are 38 prisoners of that description in Parkhurst. 839. When was that rule made ? — Within the last year. 840. Then I understand you to say this, in fact, that the rule with regard to transportation is relaxed, and so far relaxed, that the rule with regard to penal servitude no longer ap|)lies ; but that the boys sentenced to imprisonment are now sent to Parkhurst, provided the sentence is not for a shorter period than one year? — It is so. 841. Are the boys who are sent to Parkhurst under sentence of imprisonment, kept distinct from the boys who are sent there under sentences either of trans- portation or of penal servitude ? — No, they are not ; no distinction is made between them in any respect. 842. Mr. B. Dcnison.] Are the ages of female prisoners recorded, as well as those of male prisoners ? — They are. 843. Have you many female prisoners under 15 or IG ? — Not many ; but some. 844. Can you tell from experience whether the number is increasing with respect to the younger age or not? — I do not know. 845. Is the average age of the female prisoners younger or older than that of the male prisoners ? — That I cannot tell ; I have not compared the two. 846. Would you think from your experience that it was more easy to reform females or males? — Males, beyond a doubt. 847. Will you tell the Committee why you have formed that opinion ? — I think the difficulties of reformation with the women who are in the stage of sentence to transportation, or penal servitude, arise from the circumstances in which they are placed when they get out of prison. The difficulties which they have in getting an honest livelihood prevent them from becoming eventually decent and proper members of society ; but as to the extent of reformation which takes place in the prison itself, I really have not had sufficient experience, nor do I know that anybody has had, to form a reasonable opinion upon the subject. 848. Chairman.] What you mean is, that the danger of relapse is greater, in your opinion, in the one case than in the other? — V'es. 849. Mr. B. Dcnison.] Is there any means of ascertaining whether the female prisoners have led an immoral life before they became subject to the [lenalties of the law, or whether they have been connected with thieves before they led an immoral life? — That information is chiefly obtained from the prisoner herself; fier information, generally speaking, is true ; the greater proportion of these women have been leading an immoral life ; they have almost all been prostitutes. 8jO. Before they became thieves ? — Yes. 0.42. K 3 85 1. Does 78 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE Capt D. O'Brien. 8.5 1. Does not that circumstance of their having led an immoral life in the fir^-t instance very much increase the ditKculty of general reformation afterwards ? 1 May i85(). — ^'ery much so ; a ^voman who has Been once a prostitute has not the slightest hesitation in going back to her trade; there is nothing to restrain her. 6y2. Therefore, if she does go back, it is probable that she will go back to an immoral life, as well as to an illegal life? — Certainly. Sjy^. Lord Xnas.l Do you find groat difficulty in extending the period of ])robation which you speak of to women of bad cmiduct, on account of their health r — No ; the probation is so short, being only four months, that as yet I have not hoard ot any cases of women suffering, at least to any extent, i'rom the ju'obation whifh they had to undergo. 8,54. Chairman.~\ You spoke just now of the establishment at Fulham as one which was intended to jirovide a refuge for those women alter tiiey left Brixton ? — Yes. 835. Are there, in point of fact, any institutions now open which act as refuges for women of this description ? — Tiieie are some wliich iiave kindly taken these convicts upon the recommendation of the chaplain, Mr. Moran. S,5(). Are all those institutions supported by voluntary contributions : — Entirely. 8.57. What are they r — There is the " Elizabeth Fry" refuge for one, and there are others which I have heard of, but do not at this moment remember their names. 8.58. There are several? — Yes. 859. Are they increasing in number or falling off? — I have no information on the subject. 8(>o. Mr. B. Dtnuon.'] You stated the other day, with respect to male convicts, that 12 per ceiit. had positively relapsed, and that you allowed 8 percent, for those of whom you knew nothing, and that therefore you put down 80 per cent, as reformed ? — Yes. 861. How would you apply those percentages to women, as regards reforma- tion?— No person can give any reasonable opinion upon the subject; it would be absolutely impossible to do so now. 86:2. You have no proof? — We have no proof; no one can tell ; there has not been a sufficient time to form any opinion on the subject. Captain Invine S. Whitti/, called in ; and Examined. Capi./. S. Whitty. ^^.v Chairmati.'] WHAT office do you hold ?— I am one of the Directors of Convict Prisons. 864. What class of prisons are under your charge ? — The prisons for public w^orks and for invalids ; adult males. 865. Which are the prisons for public works ?— Portland, Portsmouth, two hulks at Woolwich, and partly Dartmoor. 866. And which for the invalids ?~The other part of Dartmoor, and the " Stirling Castle " hulk at Portsmouth. 867. Can you state to the Committee the amount of accommodation in each of those prisons ; the number of inmates which can be placed in it ? — Port- land, 1,5'2(); Portsmouth, 1,020; Dartmoor, for able-bodied men, 572; the hulk " Defence," at Woolwich, .528 ; and the hulk " Warrior," at Woolwich, 450. 868. W^hat is the amount of accommodation for invalids?— Part of Dartmoor, 628, and the " Stirling Castle" hulk, at Portsmouth, 420. 869. You are aware of the object of the inrjuiry of this Committee into the operation of the Act of Parliament under which licences or tickets-of- leave are granted ? — Yes. 870. Can you give the Committee any information with regard to that subject ? — Convicts are recommended for licences at a period of their sentence of trans- portation, which is regulated by instructions from the Secretary of State. 871. Are those the same instructions which we have already had given in evidence ? — I think not. 872. HaA-e you got them now before you: are they in writing?— T can very simply state tliem. The earliest period at which a seven-years' man is recom- mended SELECT COMMITTEE OiV TRANSPORTATION. 79 mended for licence is three years; a man under sentence to 10 years' trans- C-dpt. I. S. Whit ty. portation, at four years ; a man under sentence of 14 years' transportation, at six years; a man niider sentence of 15 years, at ti:^ ; under sentence for 20 years, at 1 May 1856, eiglit ; and with respect to those men who are under sentence for life, each case is to be considered upon its own merits, but none brought forward under 10 years. 873. Are those periods calculated from the date of the sentence? — From the date of the sentence ; those are the earliest periods at which a man can be brought forward. 874. So that each of those periods comprises within itself the imprisonment in the first instance at the prisons spoken to by Captain O'Brien, and then the period on public works ? — Yes. None but prisoners cf exein|ilary conduct in prison are iirought forward at the minimum periods ; the others are brought forward at some subsequent period, according to their recorded character in the prison. 875. Is great care taken with regard to recording the characters of the prisoners? — Great care is taken; the men are both classified, and have also badges on their arms, which denote their conduct and their progress towards the period of license. The prisoners, who are received on public works, from separate con- finement, in the second class, are required to perf;'rm three months longer on public works, unless from subsequent good conduct a part of that period is remitted. A man received in the third class, from separate confinement, is required to perform six months longer with the same excejition. A further deten- tion may also fall upon any man for his misconduct on the public works. 876. What is the nature of the employments on the public works ? — They are different at different places. At Portland it is almost entirely quarrying stone, and different trades which are connected with keeping the tools in oi'der for that employment. At Portsmouth, it is altogether dockyard labour, except in the case of some men who are employed under the engineer department at a distance from the dockyard, in Ciirting, and wheeling, and building, and making roads. At Dartmoor, it is chiefly agricultural labour. At Woolwich, it is also Dockj^ard and Arsenal labour, of the kind of work v\hich is going on there with ordinary labourers. 877. is the system intended to be equally laborious for all the prisoners, or are there differences in that respect? — It is equally laborious generally, but the medical officer, if he finds anv particular kind of labour too laborious for a pri- soner, puts him to some lighter kind of labour. For instance, at Portland and the other places we have generally a stone-breaking party ; if a man is not sutficently strong for active work, or if he is temporarily convalescent, he is put to break stones, saw stone, or some such work out of doors, in place of the common quarrying or other hand labour. 878. Probably regard would be had to his former occupation? — The former occupation is made available as far as it can be for the laliour of the prison ; for instance, blacksmiths are placed, as far as they can be, at smith's w^ork ; as regards their carpenters the same. 879. What is the mode of proceeding adopted with regard to the granting of these letters of license when the time h. How do you obtain your information with regard to that ? — The chaplains of the difi'erent prisons receive from each prisoner, in sufficient time to enable them to acquire this information, a statement of what he has himself to expect when he leaves the prison. These particulars are taken down, and a certain form is sent to the clergyman of the parish in which this man's friends, whom he proposes to assist him, reside, and upon the answers whieh are received a conclusion is come to, which is sent in to the Directors' Office in Parliament- street. 881. Will you go on from that point? — As soon as those papers can be ex- amined in Parliament-street, they are forwarded to the Home Office for the consideration of the Secretary of State, and in due time the licences are issued 0-42. K 4 from 8o MINUTES OF EVIDENXE TAKEN BEFORE THE Cd]>t. I. S. JVhithj. from there, and the men are discharged in small parties from the different prisons. 1 May 1856. «^v>o^ Are ihe papers sent witli a recommendation from the office in Parha- ment-street, or is it merely for tlie purpose of examination there on their way to the Home Office ? — Tliey are passed on as recommendations from there. 883. Then they go to the Home Office? — They tlien go to the Home Office, and the next that we hear of them is the issue of the licences ; they are sent to us at Parliament-street, and distributed to the different prisons. The original licence comes to ]^\rliament-street ; a parchment copy of it is made there, and signed by Colonel .lebb as a true copy, and forwarded to the prison, to be issued, that the man may be discharged. 884. Who is in possession of the original ? — The original remains in Parlia- ment-street. 885. The one signed by the Secretary of State ? — Yes, the parchment copy is signed and certified by Colonel Jebb, together with a smaller parchment certificate, stating the prisoner's conduct wliile in prison. 886. Then the instrument given to the man is a coi)y of that signed I)y the Secretary of State, with the addition of a counter-signature, as it were, by Colonel Jebb r — Ves. 887. And upon that he is released r — Upon that the man is released. 888. ^Vhere is he sent to ?— He is sent from the ])rison to the nearest railway station under the charge of an officer, who there pays his travelling expenses, as far as that railway company will receive them, to the place of the man's destina- tion: he is furnished also >vith a post-office order for the first instalment of the gratuitv of earnings, which he has acquired during the time of his being in prison ; that post-office order being payable at the place of his destination. 88q. You have been referring to the class of cases where you have informa- mation with regard to a prisoner having friends at a particular place ; is there not also a class of cases where there are no friends ? — A very considerable class. S90. How do you proceed in those cases? — ^They are discharged at the same time ; it causes no detention in their case. 891. Where would those persons be set at liberty ? — They could be sent to the places of their conviction generally. 892. Do you send an officer with them to the place of their conviction ? — No ; they are taken to the nearest railway station, and from there despatched. 893. With the fare paid to that place ? — The fare is paid, as far as possible, to the place of their destination. 894. Are gratuities given to them on their discharge ? — A man takes part of his gratuity bv a post-office order, payable at the place to which he is destined to go. 895. You heard the evidence of Captain O'Brien upon the subject of these gratuities, and you agree that that is a correct statement ? — Yes, he read the paper which I have here. 896. Have you anything to add upon that subject to the evidence given by him?— As to the mode in which these earnings are allotted to the men in the prison, the earnings are allotted to them, both upon character and upon industry. All prisoners on public works are divided into three classes, first, second and third ; the first comprises the men of best character, the second the middling, and the third the worst; the hrst-class men get Od. a week, the second-class men get 6^/., and the third-class men get 4d. ; that is entirely on account of character ; besides that, each man may earn an additional 6d. a. week by industry. Though a first class man with merely ordinary labour will get only his Dd., a third-class man may get his Ad. for classiification, and also Gd. additional by industry; so that, in fact, an industrious third-class man would get Id. a week more than a man of good character who did not exert himself at labour ; a first-class man being very industrious would get his 9d., and also an additional (id., making Is. '3d.; at that rate a man can gain in a year at the outside, supposing him to be in the first-class, and of industrious habits, about 31. 5s. "Weekly reports are made of the industry of every man, and according to certain instructions the governor allots those extra sixpences, or such parts of them as the report of the men's industry justifies, among the different prisoners. 897. Have you any information to give the Committee \vith regard to the revocations of the licences ? — Chiefly upon those which have been revoked from public works. 898. Will SELECT COMMITTEE ON TRANSPORTATION. 81 898. Will you state it? — It is singular to observe the regularity of the in- Capt. /. S. Whitii/. crease which takes places in the per-centage each quarter on the aggregate number. There have been 10 quarters now to the 31st of March since the Act 1 May 1856. came into operation, and the per-centage has increased at the rule very nearly of three-tenths per cent, in each quarter ; at the latest period the per-centage of revocations of licences on public works was 3,7,ths per cent., which on the 10 quarters makes about three-tenths as the average of each quarter ; and in tracing them up individually, it has gone on nearly at that progress during the whole of the 10 quarters, so that one might almost calculate from that, at any number of quarters in advance of the present time, what the per-centage of the revocations would be. 899. Have you any table before you representing these results ? — I have. [77ze JVitness delivered in the same, which is as follows :'\ Quarterly Rate of Revocations, 0*3 per cent, on the Aggregate Number. Licensed Nos. Total Numbers Licensed. I'otal Number of Revocatious _ ,. i* .- of Licence. Per-centage of Uevocat.on. PERIODS. In each Period, (a.) Aggregate Number. (6.) 1 in each Period, (c.) (rf.) 1 (aandtr.) On Af;siej:»tc Kumlwr 01 Li fence**. (6 a.1.1 d.) r months, to 31 December 1853 pe months, to 31 March - 1854 )itto, - to 30 June - 1854 itto, - to 30 Sept. - 1854 itto, - to 31 Doc. - 1854 itto, - to 31 March - 1855 itto, - to 30 June - 1855 itto, - to 30 Sept. - 1855 itto, - to 31 Dec. - 1855 itto, - to 31 March - 1856 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 335 314 (too)* 480 651 550 433 761 (194)* 550 (i8)» 694 (39)* 660 (67)' 335 649 1,129 1,680 2,230 2,663 3,424 3,974 4,668 5,328 1 8 2 12 19 28 28 28 55 181 1 1 9 11 23 42 70 98 126 181 0-3 0-0 1-7 0-36 2-2 4-4 3-7 51 4-0 8-5 03 015 0-8 0-6 1-03 1-6 20 2-5 2-7 3-4 5,328 Gibraltar J (^■») Captain IFhitti/.] There is another circumstance connected with the revocations of the licences of men on pubhc works which deserves to be noted. It is some times said that the worst men, when they are in prison, make the best prisoners. I think the experience on public Avorks, since the licensing svstem began, is rather against that. I stated before, that it was only the exemplary men who were discharged at the minimum period ; others are detained one, two, three months, and .«o on, according to their recorded conduct. I find that only two and four-tenths per cent, of exemplary men have had their licences revoked. Those who have been detained longer on account of misconduct in |n-ison, o-o to a much higher per-centaire of revocations ; some of them troin May 1856. P4'S. I have felt the difficulty of the position which I am putting to you on that ground, but I put these questions because you state that men of indifferent health at least have been detained for these long periods ? — Yes, invalids. 949. And even with regard to them you have found no practical difficulty? — I cannot say that I have found any practical difficulty. 950. Speaking prospectively and theoretically, do you think from your expe- rience in this class of prisoners that there would be the least difficulty in arranginiT a system under which very long imprisonments might be carried out without injury either to mind or to body r — I think that by relaxing the system at the end it might be done. 951- You are, of course, aware that the Act of Parhament adopting penal servitude in lieu of transportation contemplates the sentence of penal servitude for life ? — Yes. Q.52. Do you think that there would be practical difficulty in arranginiZ a system of imprisonment which might be safely visited upon a prisoner for life ? — I have never had any experience of a sentence of that kind, but it does appear to me that it would be an extreme sentence to pass upon a young man, to keep him in prison for life. 9.53. Of course my question is directed to this, whether in cases in which justice and the law of the land require a sentence of extreme severity there is anything in the nature of imprisonment of this character which would make it improper, on the ground of health, to inflict upon a man the sentence that lie shall pass the remainder of his days in labour of that description : — I really do not see that the prison life, as it is carried on on public works, ought to damage him. 954. Mr. B. Denison.'] You told us that the men who are sentenced to penal servitude, and who expect to work it out to the end of their sentence, are less active and less ready to conform to the rules of the prison than those who are under sentence of transportation, and whose sentence may be, to a certain extent, shortened ?— Yes. 9,5.5. Are you very much surprised at penal servitude having that operation upon the minds of the men ? — Not at all. 9.56. Is it not a very natural consequence that a man of that description, who knows that he must serve either four or six years in a prison, should become a morose and more careless character than a man who has some sort of hope before him that he niaj', by good conduct, be released? — I think so. 9.57. Do you think that a man who is now sentenced to penal servitude for four years, with a certainty of serving for four years, would not be better treated upon the whole, as regards himself, and a? regards society, if he were sentenced to six years, subject to being set at liberty sooner on account of good conduct? — At an earlier period than four years .' 955. I leave that an open question ; the suiigestion being that there should be a power in the Secretary of State in the case of a man sentenced to six years' penal servitude against four, to remit a part of his sentence, do you not think that it would have a better effect upon the man's conduct generally, and induce him to exert himself and to become a better member of society ? — I do, certainly. 959. Mr. ^1/. Millies.'] Do you regard the labour to which a man is submitted at Portland as more severe than the usual work which a healthy labouring man in good work undergoes? — It is much the same, I think. 960. Yon do not think that the phvsical labour of a man from the working classes, transported to Portland, Mould necessarily produce more injurious efl'ects upon his health than the labour of the usual daily life ? — 1 do not. 961. Wherefore, then, is there any reason to suppose that the length of the period is likely to have anything to do with the man's good or bad health .' — Because his labour is connected with imprisonment. 962. Therefore the effect upon the man's constitution will be in consequence of moral causes, and not of physical ones ? — I do not see that the physical causes at Portland (taking that place for example), in a mans labour, taken by itself, would be likely to injure him more than ordinary labour elsewhere. 963. Therefore, it is not the labour in itself which would produce any in- 0.42. L 3 jurious 86 INIINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE Capt. /. S. Whiity. urious effect upon the health of tlie criminal, whatever was the length of it r — I think not, if properly regulated. 1 Jlay 1856. ,j(^^ "Would not the moral effect of a long; or hopeless sentence prohablv produce even worse results upon the mind of a criminal without the labour than with it? — T should think it certainly would. f)6,';. Do you not find that the labour is in itself very useful as a distraction from the moral discomfort of a criminal r — Very much so. 966. Do you find that the inequality of the punishment from the previous habits of tlie criminal is very great ? — At first it is verv great. Qt)-. Why do you say "at first"? — I was, myself, the governor of Portland Prison for some time, and many meu who had been clerks and drapers, and in other in-door employments of that kind, used to complain on this point on first coming to Portland : they used to show me their hands, that they had been exco- riated from working among the rocks, and they used to complain that they could never get on with that kind of work ; that it was not what they had been accus- tomed to ; but these complaints very soon ceased, and these men worked as ■wilUngly, and complained as little about their hands, after a while, as the other men. 968. If, then, criminal* are to be subjected to any labour at all, do you think that out-door labour, such as you have at Portland, is in the end more equal than perhaps any other which can be mentioned r — I think it more equal than any in-door kind of employment which you could find for them. 969. I asked you a question before, as to the difliculty in the way of testing the moral improvement of a man ; I asked you whether you found it difficult to establish any criterion ? — One criterion is, naturally, the observed and recorded conduct of the prisoners under the prison rules. 970. Have not the governors of the prisons, or the directors of the establish- ments, any power to judge of the conduct of a prisoner except by those rules? — The governors and chaplains observe the man's conduct, and keep records of it : the governor is chiefly guided by the reports which he gets from his officers ; and the chaplain is guided, in a great measure, by that, and also by what he sees of the man's disposition in his communications with him. 971. How far, in your experience, is the judgment of the chaplain in these matters to be attended to, speaking generally, of course ? — I think great depend- ence is to be placed upon it. 972. You must be aware that there is a very strong feeling in the public mind, encouraged by works of fiction and other causes, that a certain amount of skilful hypocrisy and judicious temperance of conduct in a prison may enable a criminal to gain, not only the favour of the authorities, but a remission of sentence, with- out any real change in his character and disposition ; do you think that this is a real danger, and one which is to be guarded asainst ? — I do not think it is a real danger ; a man would gain nothing on public works by hypocrisy towards the chaplain ; from the system in force he could gain nothing by it. 973. At any rate, whatever other systems may be amenable to that accusation, yet you think that the system of public works would be comparatively free from it ? — A man could gain nothing, that I see, from it ; what I mean by that is, that if his conduct was otherwise bad, the chaplain's favourable opinion in opposition to the governor's would in no way help him to his getting the rewards which arc the result of good conduct. 974. Do you find that the men ever express regret at the abolition of the system of transportation beyond the seas r— Several men, to my own knowledge, have staled that they would much rather be sent abroad than retained at home; they would rather have a new field open to them. 975. Do you mean under the old system or under the new : — I mean that they would rather be transported. 976. Is the doing away, then, with the old system of transportation looked upon by the men with regret r — By many. 977. Do you find the men willing or unwilling to be transported to public Avorks at other places out of the country, such as Gibraltar and Bermuda ? — They like a change ; so far many of them would like to go to Gibraltar or Ber- muda. 978. Have they less sense of shame and disgrace in being removed to another part ? — I do not know that that is any motive with them. SELECT COMMITTEE ON TRAXSPORTATIOX. 87 Luna, 5° die Mali, 1856. MEMBEIIS PRESENT. Mr. Baines. Sir John Pakington. Mr. Adderley. Mr. Serjeant O'Brien. Mr. Wickham. Mr. John Wynne. Mr. Maspey. Mr. Beckett Denison. Mr. Deedes. Mr. Sevmour Fifzcrerald. Mr. Monckton Milnes. Mr. Ker Seymer. The Right Hon. MATTHEW TALBOT BAINES, in the Cii.vir. Captain Incine S. W/iiltj/, called in ; and further Examined. 979. Chairman.'] IS there any point of the evidence which you gave at our last Capt. /. 5. JVliitty. meeting to which you wish to refer now for the purpose of explanation ? — There are one or two points. 5 May 1356. 9S0. Will you have the goodness to state them ? — With respect to com-ict earnings, I mentioned that 3/. 5s. was the outside that a convict could generally gain in a year ; but 1 should have also stated that a certain class of couvicts had an opportunity of gaining 6(/. a week additional to that ; these were men v.ho, at the time that there was a difficulty in sending convicts abroad at the minimum periods, were compensated in some degree for their longer detention in prison, and one part of that compensation was an additional GJ. a week as gratuity. With regard to the penal servitude men, in the diflFerent stages which they are passed through, they may also, after a certain time of imprisonment, obtain additional earnings, whicb will be explained by the notice to penal servitude prisoners which I now hand in. [The Witness delivered in the same, which is as follows .-] iS^OTICE to Convicts under Sentence of Transportation and Penal Servitdde. Transportation for certain offences having been abolished by Act of Parbament, and certain periods of imprisonment of much shorter duration under the term " Penal Servitude" having been substituted in place of the sentences of seven and ten years' transportation which had been usually awarded, no renvission, as a ceneral rule, of any part of the term of penal servitude will be granted ; the period of detention in place of a longer sentence of transportation having been settled by law. Tiie Secretary of State will, liowever, be pre- pared to consider the case of any convict whose conduct may be the subject of special recommendation. The Secretary of State is also desirous, as a general rule, of holding out encouragement to good conduct by establishing successive stages of discipline, to eacii of which some special privileges will be attached. Convicts of good conduct, and maintaining a character for willing industry, will," by this rule, be enabled after certain fixed periods, to obtain the higher stages, and gain the privileges attached to them. For the present, and until further orders, the following rules will be observed : — All convicts under sentence of penal servitude will be subjected to a period of separate confinement followed by labour on public works. Convicts under sentence of transportation will be subject to the same discipline so long as they are imprisoned in this country. Separate Confinement. 1. Convicts, as a general rule, will be detained in separate confineraent for a period of nine months from the date of their reception in a Government prison. •2. Every convict who, during a detention of six months in the prison, may have conducted liini?e!f in a satisfactory manner, will be allowed to wear a badge, which will entitle him to receive a visit from his friends. A second badge, with the privilege of a second visit, will be granted at the end of three additional months, provided his conduct has contmucd to be satisfactory. 0.42. L 4 3. Convicts 88 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE Capt. I. S. fVhitti/, 3. Convicts wearing badges will be recommended for gratuities to be placed to their credit, according to the scale approved by the Secretary of State. 5 May 1856. 4. In the event of a convict lacing deprived of a badge through nii«conduct,ihe will, at the same time, forfeit all advantages he had derived from it, including the graiuity already credited to him (if so ordered). He may, however, regain the forfeited badge alter an interval ot two months, if specially recommended by the governor and chaplain. 6. On removal of convicts from separate confinement to public works, they will be placed in the first, second, or third class, according to their conduct, attention to instruction, and industry. Tiiis classification will affect their position in the following stages of their servitude. 6. Convicts deemed to be incorrigible will be specially dealt with. PuBUC Works. On the reception of a convict on public works, the remaining term of his sentence, reckon- ing twelve months from conviction, wdl be divided info four portions or stages of discipline, any odd weeks or months being placed in the first stage. Discipline of the First Stage. Convicts undergoing the first of the four portions of penal servitude on public works, will be subject to the ordinary discipline of the prison, and be classified as usual in 1st, 'id, or 3d class. Second Stage, comprising the Secoitd Quarter of the Period on Public Works. Convicts during this stage, will be permitted to write and receive letters, and have visits, every second month. They will also receive an addition of 6d. to the ordinary weekly gratuity to which they may be otherwise entitled. A badge denotmg the promotion to this stage will bo worn by each convict. Third St'ige, comprising the Third Quarter of the Period on Public Worhs. Convicts who gain this stage, will have the privilege of writing and receiving letters, and having visits, monthly. An addition of 3 d. a week to the gratuity of the second stage, making 1) d. additional to the ordinary graiuity, will be granted to convicts in this stage. Some addition to their dinner on Sunday, including half a pint of beer, will be allowed. Tea may be also substituted for grml at supper. An additional badge, denoting the promotion to this stage, will be worn. Fourth Stage, C07)iprising the Last Quarter of the whole Period on Public Works. An addition of Z d. to tlie gratuity of the third sliige, or 1 «. a week additional to the ordinary gratuity, will be planted. An occasional variety of diet will be permitted. Lights will bo allowed in the cells an hour biter tlian under the existing regulations. A different dress f'lom that of the other convicts will be worn. If unfavourable reports sliould be received of a convict from se])aratc confinement, or his conduct on puldic works be unsatisfactory or only moderately good, his pi-ogress towards the advantages of the several stages will be propurtionably retarded, and he will be liable for misotiiiduct to be removed back into any previous stage. Captain Wliittij.'] It \vill be seen by that notice that after certain stages of im|)ris nment penal servitude prisoners of good conduct are allowed to acquire additional earnings as a reward for industry and conduct. 981. Is there any other point to whicli you wish to direct the attention of the Committee by ^yay of explanation of your former statement.' — Yes; with respect to the accommodation at Dartmoor Prison it is intended to reduce the number of con>. icts at Dartmoor to about 800, invalids exclusively ; these invalids being- men who are considered fit only for light labour. 982. Is there any other point upon which you desire to make any observations ? — There is one other point ; I stated that the effect of penal servitude sentences, as compared with those of transportation, was found unfavourable for discipline and industry in the prison ; I wish to observe that that appears not only of import- ance as regards the trouble it may give to the officers, and the danger which may attend it, but tiiat it is found that a state of general disquietude among the pri- soners, and a tendency to general insubordination, are very unfavourable for producing- SELECT COMMITTEE ON TRANSPORTATION. 89 producing any kind of moral or religious improvement among them, and, Capt.7. S. Whitty. therefore, I consider the difference between the two sentences to be very im- — portant. 5 May 1856. 983. Is there any other point to which you wish to allude ? — There is no other point, 984. You stated, when you were here before, that the hulk system was in process of abandonment 'l — Yes. 985. Is it proposed to get rid of it altogether ? — Whenever an opportunity occurs. 986. And you are now lessening it as far as possible ? — It is now being lessened as far as possible. 9S7. I suppose by " opportunity" you mean whenever you can get increased accommodation elsewhere r — Whenever sites can be got for prisons in place of the hulks. 988. Mr. [Vickham.] There is a large building at Chatham, is there not ? — There is. 989. Mr. Adderley.'] When you say that the effect of penal servitude sen- tences has been unfavourable compared with the transportation sentences, of course you allude to old transportation sentences ? — Yes. 990. Will there be the same unfavourable comparison, do you suppose, in the two sentences under the new Act when they are all working together?— I think there will. 991. Will you state why? — The long-sentence men under sentence of trans- portation will be selected for transmission to a colony at an earlier period in consequence of their good conduct ; therefore the penal servitude men will see that these men under sentence of transportation are actually gaining the remission of a part of their imprisonment in consequence of good conduct, while they themselves are not. 992. Supposing the system of licences to be abandoned, the term of imprison- ment under both sentences, whether of penal servitude or of transportation, will be equally rigid, and not subject to modification.' — I apprehend that all able- bodied men will still continue to be transported to Western Australia. 993. Will not that portion of their sentence be an addition to the term of imprisonment which, under both sentences, will be equally unalterable ? — The system under which men have been transported hitherto has been, that at a certain period of their sentence, if their conduct has been good, they have been sent abroad with tickets-of-leave ; if their conduct has been unfavourable, tliey have been detained longer in this country ; so that, in fact, a man of good con • duct gets sooner sent abroad, and is sooner in a state of comparative freedom than he would otherwise be. 994. Am I to understand, that, under the Act of 1853, supposing no licences to be at large to be given under sentences either of penal servitude or transpor- tation, the sentences of transportation will still be subject to mitigation, more than the sentences of penal servitude? — I apprehend so. 995. In what way ? — In the same way as they have been hitherto. I appre- hend that the governor of the <;olony will have instructions as to the time that these men are to have a licence in the colony. 996. Will you state in what way a sentence to penal servitude for six years, and in what wav a sentence to transportation for 14 years, will be carried out under the .Act of 1853? — With respect to a prisoner for six years' ])enal ser- vitude, it is intended, as far as our instructions go, that he shall be kept for six years actually in prison, and then be discharged; a 1-4 years' transportation man, if he is kept in this country, will be kept for six years in imprisonment, and then be discharged, under a licence, in this country. 907. How will a sentence tu transportation be carried out, xmder which the criminal is sent at once abroad ? — That will depend upon the instructions which the governor of the colony has. We lose sight of the men altogether, when they go abroad. I should apprehend that such a man would remain abroad during the whole of his sentence of 14 years, but under what conditions I cannot say, because it would depend upon the instructions to the governor of the colony with regard to him. 908 Then how will a sentence to transportation, under any circumstances, be more liable to mitigation than a sentence to penal servitude ? — I am speaking of 0.42. M the go MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE Capt. I. S. Whiity. the past mode of carrying out sentences to transportation. My intention was to contrast the present system of penal servitude witli tlic system that existed 5 May 1856. before of dealing with convicts under sentence of transportation. qqc). Do vou think that, comparing sentences to penal servitude with sen- tences to transportation, under the .'Vet of 1853, when the two were wijrking together, tliere will still be that unfavourable contrast between the sent?nces to })enal servitude and those to transportation? — I tl)iiik the circumstances are quite different from what they were before. 1000. Vou do not see that there will be the same unfavourable comparison between the two? — No, certainly not ; it will be diminished. Unless the sen- tences of transportation are carried out as tliey were before, it will not be the case ; if they are carried out as they were before, it certainly will be. 1001. Vou say that if prisoners are kept the whole time of their sentence, there will be little inducement to good conduct ; will not there still I)e the motive to good conduct which is produced by the system of earnings in prison ? — 1 think 1 said little comparative encouragement. 1002. Do you suppose that the system of earnings in prison will not be a sufficient inducement to good conduct without the additional encouragement of a mitigation of term? — I really do not. 1003. When you stated that there was a steadily increasing scale of revocation of licences, are you sure that during the whnle time to which that scale applies the returns were equally accurate .' — The number of revocations, 1 consider, were ; I am confining it entirely to revocations ; not to men who have been re-committed. 1 004. Do you consider that sending discharged prisoners to the place of con- viction is a good system ? — I think it is, except a man can show that he has more decided opportunities of sufficient employment or support at another place. 100.5. Have you ever turned your mind to devising a better mode of dis- charging prisoners r — I have often thought of it. 1006. Have you any plan which you could suggest ? — I really could suggest no better plan than sending the man to the place of his conviction, and one great reason, I think, why it is well to send a man to the place of his conviction is, that he is known there. 1007. Wiiy do you consider that a good point? — I think in many instances it is a good point ; I think a man is more likely to guard his conduct if he knows that people are aware of what he was before. 1 og8. Have you ever considered the establishment of places of reference for the employment of discharged prisoners t — Under Government? 1009. Either under Government or under private management ? — I have often thought of it. 1010. Do you think favourably of the plan ?— I do not think favourably of any plan by which men in the position of licensed convicts can be brought together in larsie numbers. loTi.. Suppose there were such places in every large town throughout tlie kingdom .- — That would completely obviate the difficulty which I am mentioning, because the men would then be scattered, so that they could not be in any town, I suppose, collected in a large number. 1012. Have you at all carefully considered that subject ?— I have naturally thought of it a great deal, from the difficulties which have suggested themselves in these men getting employment. 1013. Uo you consider that any such institutions would be best in the hands of Government or in the hands of private individuals r— I should think they would be best in the hands of private individuals. 1014. \\ ill you state your reasons for preferring the management of private individuals?— I think the prisoners themselves would be more likely to resort to them if they were in the hands of private individuals ; I think if they were in the hands of d'overnment they would to a certain extent feel that they were still prisoners, and that, I think, would operate as an objection in the minds of many. 1015. Have you other reasons for preferring the management of such institu- tions bv private individuals ?— No, I think that is the main reason. 1010. Can vou give us any opinion as to which of the two sentences, penal servitude or transportation, under the Act of 1853, is generally most feared r— I think SELECT COMMITTEE ON TRANSPORTATION. gi 1 think penal servitude is most feared, but it is merely a matter of opinion on mv Capi. /. S. Whittt, part. ' 1017. Still you do entertain that opinion ? — I do. 5 May 1856. 1018. Do vou consider that the class of worst criminals are the ria;ht class to trans[)ort, treating the less serious crimes by sentences of penal servitude, or would you reverse that order of punishment ? — I should certainly think it was of more advantage to this country to get rid of the worst class of prisoners. 1019. Have you ever seen a ticket-of-leave endorsed with any such order as this, " Prisoner not to be employed in such and such a county " ? — " Not to return to such a county" I have seen. 1020. Have yoii ever seen one which stated, that a prisoner was not to be employeil, we \\ill sa\- in Middlesex? — I do not remember ever seeing one expressed in that "ay. 1021. iJut it is frequently " Not to return to such a county " ? — Yes. 1022. And supposing he did return to such a county, would he be liable to have his licence revoked ? — Yes. 1023. JMr. B. Deimon.~\ Do you suppose that at)y parties who had been in prison, and who went to the refuges which the honourable Member alluded to, would to any extent get emjdoyment ; would application be made at such places for men, for any particular employment r — I doubt that applications would be made to those places for labour. As I understood the question, they were to be employed there. J024. From what you know of society, do you think that parties would apply for labourers at such a [)lace ? - My idea of such a place was, that labour would be there provided for them; not thai they would go tliere and wait till thev were asked for. 1025. Tiiere was another question which the honourable [Member put to you about the impression which the ditl'erent sentences would make upon the minds of these parties, and which of them would produce the most effect. Do you believe that any of these parties calculate beforehand what is likely to be the sentence, whether penal servitude or transportation ?— Not before they commit their offence, I think ; but I think it is very likely that when they have committed the oflence and are taken up, they then speculate upon which sentence they are hkely to have. 1026. Is not the sentence upon an individual intended as much to deter other persons from committing such an oflence, as to punish tlie offender himself? — I'hat is very true. 1027. Would it not be more natural for the parties who are not before the court at the time to calculate upon which would be the worst sentence of the two ; it is too late for the prisoner at the bar to calculate ? — He speculates upon which sentence he is likely to have. 1028. He may speculate, but it is evidently too late for him to calculate, because he has committed the offence, and he stands at the bar. Do you believe that such parties ever calculate before they commit an oflence what is likely to be the result of the trial as regards the punishment .'—1 think it is very doubtful that they do. AVhen a man is about to couirait an offence, I am of opinion that he does not think much about the punishment which is likely to follow. 1021). Mr. IFickhamJ] Do you know what is the actual treatment intended to be pursued of parties transported since the year 1853? — No further than that 1 believe it is intended to send them to Western Australia. 1030. And not to keep them at all in this country for any portion of their sentence? — I apprehend not, except they are invalids ; if they are fit for trans- portation, I apprehend that they will be transported. 1031. Immediately? — They go through a stage of separate confinement in this country, and then they are sent to public works, and from those public w-orks they are sent abroad, I apprehend, as opportunity occurs. 1032. Are you aware what actual regulations at present exist on that subject? — That is the regulation. 1033. How long are thev to be detained? — Until an opportunity occurs of sending them abroad. 1034. How long are they to be detained in separate confinement? — Nine months is the general time. 1035. Mr. Serjeant O'Briau] Are you aware of any reason «hy the system 0.42. M 2 of ga MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE Capt. /. S. Wkitty. of shortening the period of punishment according to the good conduct of a prisoner, should not apply to the case of penal servitude as well as to the sen- 5 May 1856. tence of transportation r — I am not, supposing that the length of sentence was allotted in accordance with it. 1036. There is no provision for that in the Act of Parliament ? — I apprehend that there is nothing in the Act to prevent a licence being granted to a penal- servitude prisoner. 1037. Does the notice produced from the Secretary of State's office apply to all convicts, male as well as female ? — I think that Captain Olirien handed in one as to females. 1038. Is there a similar ride as to all convicts, male and female : — Yes ; there are similar notices issued with regard to both male and female convicts. Colonel Joshua Jchh, r.e., c. b., called in; and Examined. Colonel /. /eii, 1039. Chairman.] WHAT is the office which you hold?— Chairman of the ". E., c. B. Directors of Convict Prisons. 1040. How long have you held that officer— Since the passin;? of the Act, 29th July 1850. 1041. I believe the subject of the inquiries of this Committee has been very much under your consideration officially ? — It has. 1042. In all its parts? — Having been connected with the convict discipline since Pentonville and Parkhurst were first erected, now about IS years ago, the subject naturally has engaged much of my attention. 1043. Considering the office which you hold, and the opportunities which you have had of attending to this subject, I will, at the risk of something like repeti- tion, put to you some questions which have been put to the other witnesses. It is very important, I think, that we should have your views upon the whole sub- ject, as far as we can. You remember the passing of the Act IG &c 17 Vict. c. 99 ?— Yes. 1044. Before that time, had there been discussions as to the question of diminishing the number of prisoners to be transported? — The question of dimi- nishing the number of convicts to be transported was, I think, under considera- tion in 1851. It appeared, on reference to the criminal tables, that, on an average of 10 years previous to that period, the following were the relative num- bers sentenceii to transportation and imprisonment respectively ; viz., sentences of 7 and 10 years' trans|)ortation, 2,G26 ; imprisonment for 3 years, and above 2, only 5; 2 years and above 1, 473. The object of mentioning these numbers is to show that a great void existed in the sentences of imprisonment which might have been passed in county prisons, before resorting to a sentence of transportation. The practice was, to pass from a very moderate sentence of imprisonment to the sentence of seven years' transportation. With a view to remedy this defect, and at the same time to afford the means of reducing the number to be sent abroad, it appeared tliat the Resolutions of the Committee of the House of Commons of 1850 were directed to the point of reducing the number to be sent abroad, by increasing the number who should be sent to prisons for moderate periods of one or two years. The Resolutions of the Committee were as follows : — " 14. That after prisoners under long sentences have undergone a period of separate confinement, the remainder of their sentences ought to be passed under a system of combined labour with effectual precautions against intercourse. 15. That this object would be greatly facilitated by the erection of district prisons at the national cost for the reception of prisoners under long sentences, after they have undergone such previous separate confinement. 16. That such district prisons should be maintained at the national cost, and the government of such prisons, and all appointments and salaries of officers, ought to be under the control of Her Majesty's Covernmeut." The object of some of these resolu- tions was, that supposing a sentence of three years' imprisonment to be passed by the quarter sessions, the first probationary period of separate confinement for nine months or twelve months should be carried out at the county prison, and that the m-.in should then be sent to one of the district prisons which are alluded to. No practical steps were taken by the Government at the time lor carrying into effect these resolutions, but they have practically been carried out to a great extent, by the passing of the IG k. 17 Victoria, in which there have been substituted in certain cases sentences of penal servitude tor those of transporta- tion : SELECT COMMITTEE ON TRANSPORTATION. 93 tion ; the difference is, that the Government in this case, as these sentences may Colonel J. Jebb, be regarded as commutations of sentences of transportation, have taken the »• e., c b. administration of the whole period, includino' the separate confinement, into their — — , , r ' 3 r ]^j J856. own hands. ^ j -^ 1045. Can you state to the Committee what were the regulations in force immediately prior to the passing of that Act in 1853 ? — The notice to prisoners, under sentence of transportation, would perhaps best explain that to the Com- mittee ; I hold it in my hand, and will put it in as part of my evidence. 1046. When was that notice first adopted? — how long had it been in use prior to the passing of the Act of the 16 & 17 Vict. ? — I should think about six years ; it was adopted when Portland was first established, under the autho- rity of Sir G. Grey. 1047. Will you read it ? — This notice was suspended in every cell; both in the cells of those who were in separate confinement, and of those who were on public works. "Separate confinement. — Prisoners may be recommended for removal on special grounds at any time, but in ordinary cases they will be detained in separate confinement for 12 months. The conduct and character of each prisoner will be carefully watched and noted. Deserving prisoners will receive a good conduct badge, to be worn on the dress after they have been a certain time in the prison. On removal from the prison to public works, pri- soners will be placed in one of three classes, according to the report of their character, industry and moral improvement, while in separate confinement. Prisoners who are deemed to be incorrigible will be specially dealt with. First- class prisoners removed to public works will, by continued good conduct, become eligible to be recommendnd for embarkation at the periods noted in the follow- ing scales. Second class prisoners will be liable to three months, and third class prisoners to six months additional detention beyond the period fixed for the detention of first class prisoners." Then we come to public works. '' Ordinary periods of detention on public works in this country proportioned to the terms of different sentences lor convicts who have previously passed 12 months in separate confinement. " Scale, No. 1. " A prisoner sentenced to 7 years, for a period not less than 2 years. Ditto - - - 10 „ - - „ - - 3,1 „ Ditto - - - 15 „ - - „ - - 6 „ Ditto - - - 20 „ - - „ - - 8J „ Ditto - - - life . - „ - - lOi „ " If a prisoner has been more or less than one year in separate confinement, the difference will be deducted or added to these periods. "These periods, together with the previous term passed in separate confine- ment, and the time occupied in the voyage, are calculated to make up about half the period of sentence ; it is, however, to be clearly understood that it is only in cases of prisoners conducting themselves in a satisfactory manner that any 6uch remission of their sentence can be recommended, and that they can only be embarked as opportunities ofier, and as may be convenient to the public service." What I am now about to read is an important point : " As a further encourage- ment, however, such prisoners as conduct themselves in an exemplary manner, and who show by their general demeanor and willing industry that they have profited by the instruction they have received, and are likely to become useful members of society when released from penal discipline, will be eliiiible to be specially recommended to the Secretary of State at the expiration of a period short of that on the foregoing scale, but not less than according to the following scale, No. 2 (that is to say) ; " Minimum period of detention on pubhc works applicable to prisoners whose conduct is exemplary : " A prisoner sentenced to 7 years, for a period not less than 1 year. ». - - 3 „ 4 - - 5 ,, 0.42. M 3 " If Ditto - - 10 ■ Ditto - - 15 Ditto - - 20 Ditto - - life 94 MINUTES OF E\'IDENCE TAKEN' BEFORE THE Co\one\ J. jcbb, " If a prisoner Iims been more or less than one year in separate confine- R. E.,c. B. ment. the diti'erence will be deducted or added to these periods, as before " explained. 5 May 185G. " i,^ order that every prisoner may be aware of his situation and the eifect which his conduct may have in diminishing or extending his period ot proba- tionary disciphne, records of his conduct, character, and industry will be kept by the governor, chaplain, and other officers, which will be examined monthly (or oftener if I'equired), and the result communicated to the prisoner. If a i)risoner's conduct has been in all respects exemplaiy during- the month, he will receive a badge to be worn on his arm, which, if not for- feited by subsequent misconduct, will afterwards enable the director to recommend him for a remission of one month of the period of detention set forth in Scale No. 1. Thus a prisoner under sentence for seven years, who had passed 12 months in separate confinement, would, by exemplary conduct for 12 months on public works, place himsell in a position to be specially recom- mended for 12 months remission of the period laid down in Scale No. 1, and might thus become eligible for embarkation in the minimum period of 12 months as laid down in Scale No. 2 ; or a prisoner under .sentence for lU years, having pa-sed a like period in separate confinement, conducting himself in an exemplary manner, would place himself in a jjosition to be recommended for embarkation in the minimum period ot one year and three quarters, as laid down in Scale No. 2, instead of being detained three years and a half as prescribed lor ordinary cases in Scale No. 1. Prisoners entitled to a less number of badges would be eligible for recommendation at some intermediate period." Then the notice goes on as to the lickets-of-leave in the penal colony ; " 1. Rules and regulations for the maintenance of good order among ticket-of-leave holders are framed and promulgated in the colony. The following are at present some of their principal conditions, but it must be distii:ctly understood that they are liable to be varied as may be judged to be necessary and proper by the authorities on the spot. 2. A convict embarked from this country as a ticket of-leave holder will not pass out of the custody of the Government in the colony, until he shall be engaged for at least a year, for service with some private employer, who shall be responsible for making a certain payment, as hereafter exjjlained in para- graph 5. U suitable service cannot be i btained, the convicts will he employed by Government at wages, out of which they will receive clothing and rations. A small proportion will be paid to them in money, and tiie remahider credited towards the liquidation of the amount required to be paid to the Govern- ment. Until this amount is paid, a convict will only be entitled to a pro- bationary ticket-of-leave, but the full privileges of a ticket-of-leave will be granted as soon as he shall have paid the sum required, provided his conduct has been in all respects satisfactory. 3. The ticket-of-leave holder is required to remain in a particular district, within which he may Iiire himself out for wages ; tills is usually a country district, and he must not quit it without obtaining- a pass from a niagistrate ; he must register his place of residence and any change of it ; he must be at his ov, n dwelling from 10 o'clock at night until day-break ; and he must report himself at certain periods in the year at the jjolice office of his district. For some classes of otiences he is liable to summary jurisdiction, and his ticket-of-leave may be recalled tor misconduct, in -ivhich case he will be subjected to penal labour." This notice "as hung up in every cell, so that all men were made aware of the exact conditions which they had to abide by, and of the encouragement which was held out to them for good conduct. As regards the operation of it, 1 c;an only say that though the two scales which regulate the period of detention were made, one for men who conducted themselves well, and the other for those who conducted themselves in an exemplary manner, so many of them conducted themselves in an exemplary manner, that I believe at least nine-tenths of them became eligible for release at the end of the minimum j)eriod. That gratifying result was obtained under Captain "Whitty, who organized the establishment. 1048. Will you describe to the Committee the steps that were taken on the passing of the Act of the 16 &17 of Victoria with reference to the convicts who were at that time under sentence of transportation? — At the passing of the Act there were about 6,700 men in this country under sentence of seven and ten years' transporsation, 1049. You are speaking of Great Britain, I believe? — Yesj the Act had limited SELECT COMMITTEE ON TRANSPORTATION. 95 limited transportation to 14 years, enforcing penal servitude for shorter sen- Colonel J. Jelb, tences. It was therefore thought right to commute all sentences for seven and k.e.,c. b. 10 years into imprisonment or penal servitude, with release on licence in this ~ " country. It was a very important question to determine what should be done ^ ay 1 5 . with these men ; their sentences, from circumstances, could not be carried out. The men had had the notice referred to before them from the first day of entering a Government prison, and tliey therefore had strong hopes of embarkation at the regidar periods. After a considerable discussion with reference to the peculiar claims of these men, it was determined to commute their sentences into a shorter period than had been usual. It had been the practice to commute sentences of seven and ten years' men into detention for half the periods of the sentence of transportation, but, in consetjuence of these men iiaving experienced so great a disappointment, and their liavine conducted themselves in so exemplary a manner, it was determined in the case of the seven years' men that they should be released in the minimum period of three years, and the ten years' men in ibur years ; also, that advantage should be taken of the provisions of the Act for granting licences to them, instead of releasing them perfectly free, as they would have been under the old system. The 14 years' men, some of v/hom had served a considerable proportion of their sentences, were to be brought forward in six years. The 15 years' men were to come forward in six-and-a-half years ; the 20 years" men in eight ; and the life sentences were to be considered after a lapse of 10 years. Those were the measures which were immediately adopted with reference to placmg before these convicts some certain prospect in substitution of that whicii they had had before them, and I believe it was, generally speaking, satisfactory to them ; it was thought that the Government had dealt fairly and justly. lO.'jo. You are spt-aking of those persons who had had these sentences pas«ed upon them, whatever portion had been gone through at the time i — Whatever portion had been gone through was accounted for in the several periods I have named. 105) . What, in your opinion, were the effects of the suspension of transporta- tion on the large body of prisoners in confinement at the time of the pas3ini:' 10.55. Clunrman.'\ Before the issuing of that letter, had you information, which, in your judgment, could at all re[iresent the true state of facts?— It is perhaps negative evidence, but we have sources of information which are, I think, trustworthy; I allude to the application made by the convicts for the balance of their griituities, and to the correspondence. The Committee probably has been informed that a certain gratuity is credited to each prisoner, and this accumu- lates to his credit until the period of his discharge. It is usual when the sum amounts to more than 5 /. to pay the man a proportion of it by a post-office order, leaving him to apply for the remainder at the expiration of three months. This application must be accompanied by a certificate from a magistrate, a clergy- man, an employer, or some respectable person, that he is earning an honest livelihood up to the date of the three months after his discharge. Of 1,242 appUcations which had been made up to the 31st of December last, 1 ,225 liad been satisfactory, and 17 only were of a contrary character. The required certificate had been given in these cases by 851 clergymen, 214 magistrates, 177 employers, and others. The total number who had left balances up to that period were, however, 1,828, so that 58C remained to be accounted for ; of these the cause of no application having been made remains to be explained. Deducting those whose term of three months had not expired, and other cases which are easily explained, there remained only 145 out of a total of 1,828, concerning whom further explanation was necessary; in this number are included some who had forfeited their licences, others who had lelt the country, and others who, from a wish to conceal themselves, had been deterred from holding conmiunication with the prison authorities. Of the whole number discharged, 2,052 had left no balance, and cannot, therefore, be judged of by this test; but as tiiese generally were men who had been a shorter time in prison, and therelbre had less balance of gratuity due to them, there is no reason to suppose that they were not quite as well-con- ducted as those who had left balances. 1056. You have no positive uitormation, as I understand you, Mith regard to the cases, before the issuing of that letter from the Secretary of State's Office in February 1855; but you inler from the facts which you have just stated to the Committee, those results which you have mentioned 'i — I think thut the results would be the same ; I do not see reason to believe that they would be other- wise. 1057. Since the issuing of that circular in February 1855, has there been what vou consider full and accurate inlormation transmitted ? — I think so ; of course there must have been some who have escaped detection ; but considering that the men, almost without exception, go back to the places from which they came, with a view of obtaining employment, and that they generally make their applications for the balances Irom the employer to whom they first go, or at the same place, that the police have the same, or perhaps better, means of detecting them than they Lave of detecthig other criminals, i do not see but that we have SELECT COMMITTEE ON TRANSPORTATION. 97 have a fair representation, not of course to the full amount ; but there is so Colonel J. Jebb, large a margin left, that in my opinion the result of the measure of releasing r.e., c b. men on license has been most satisfactory, far more so than I anticipated. ~~ '~ I would beg permission to advert to the crimes for which the 404 convicts have ^7 1 5 • been convicted. The following is an analysis : against the Vagrant Act, there were 38 ; for assaults, 20; lor assaults on the police, 11 ; for offences against the game laws, 8 ; for desertion, 7 ; for misdemeanor, 20 ; making altogether 104 of that class of offences ; for picking pockets and theft, 34 ; for common larceny, 133 ; for felony and offences of a grave character, 103 ; making altogether 270 ; awaiting sentence, 30 ; which makes a total of 404. 10.58. Have you information which you can give the Committee with regard to the numbers released in the different counties ? — Yes ; the numbers released in the different counties up to the 31st December last have been as follow: — In Bedfordshire 13, Bert\shire 58, Buckinghamshire 26, Cambridgeshire 53, Cheshire 68, Cornwall 21, Cumberland 10, Derbyshire 37, Devonshire 98, Dorsetshire 28, Durham 42, Essex 69, Gloucestershire 64, Hampshire 130, Herefordshire 22, Hertfordshire 44, Huntingdonshire 12, Kent 102, Lan- cashire 557, Leicestershire 53, Lincolnshire 65, Middlesex 926, Northumber- land 65, Nottinghamshire 55, Norfolk 73, Northamptonshire 42, Oxfordshire 42, Rutlandshire 4, Shropshire 31, Somersetshire 211, Staffordshire 146, Suffolk 63, Surrey 104, Sussex 38, Warwickshire 198, Westmorland 9, Wiltshire 52, Worcestershire 66, Yorkshire 311; Wales 96 ; making altogether 4,104. lO'jQ. You have given us the actual numbers released in the several counties r — Yes^ io6o. Is there any other information contained in that table to which you think it material to draw the attention of the Committee ? — The population of these different counties is taken from the census returns ; and the proportion of ticket-of-leave men to 10,000 of the inhabitants would be as follows : 1 per 10,000 in Bedfordshire, 3^ in Berkshire, l/i, in Buckinghamshire, 2/^ in Cam- bridgeshire, 1/^ in Cheshire, /g in Cornwall, /^ in Cumberland, IjV in Derby- shire, l/„ in Devonshire, 1 /„ in Dorsetshire, l^l^ in Durham, 1^?, in Essex, \^g in Gloucestershire, 3^^., in Hampshire, lj?j in Herefordshire, 2/;, in Hertford- shire, 1^^. in Huntingdonshire, 1/^ in Kent, 2/„, in Lancashire, 2f'^, in Leicester- shire, l/,y in Lincolnshire, 4/^ in Middlesex, 2^',; in Northumberland, 2 in Nottinghamshire, Ij^ in Norfolk, 2 in Northamptonshire, 2/^ in Oxfordshire, 1^ in Rutlandshire, 1/^^ in Shropshire, 4^ in Somersetshire, 2/^ in Staffordshire, 1^„- in Suffolk, lA in Surrey, 1^^ in Sussex, 4^=^ in Warwickshire, 1/^ in West- morland, 2y*j in Wiltshire, 2-^^ in Worcestershire, \f^ in Yorkshire, and 8^55 in Wales. 1061. If I have heard those figures rightly, Middlesex and Warwickshire seem to be the only two counties where the proportion goes above four per 10,000 ? — It is nearly five per 10,000 in Middlesex, and that is in two years and five months. I think this proportion has not been calculated to create the great degree of alarm which has existed about it. 1062. 'Mt. B. Denison.'] Do you mean that there is only one-eighth out of 10,000 persons returned into Yorkshire, and that there are two-sevenths returned into Lancashire ? — Yes ; those are the facts. 1063. But these are released prisoners? — We have discharged on license so many ; the absolute numbers are given. 1064. It strikes me that there is a greater amount of crime in this return in respect of Yorkshire than there is in respect of Lancashire.'' — No ; with respect to the table which I have put in, and which gives the per-centages of license-holders who have been sent into different counties, it probably equallv represents the pro|iortion of prisoners who are left in the prisons. \\ ith pei mission of the Committee, 1 will make a lew obser- vations on the general results. I think it will appear, from a consideration of the foregoing returns, that a judicious system of discipline applied for a sufiicient period to bring out its effects, will make a tangible impression upon very hard and obdurate materials. There can be no doubt that the convicts who have been released on license were, at the outset, both collectively and individually, worse than others of the criminal class, who, by the state of the law and the practice of its administration, escaped the longer terms of imprisonment, and were committed for the shorter ones ; whilst the former have been subject to a course of discipline and training, the latter have been passing successive periods within a prison, and indulging their criminal propensities for corresponding 0.42. N periods 98 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE Colonel J. Jehb, periods out of it. And wliat lias been the result ? The former, who are repre- '^" ^'' ^' "• sented by the large number released on license from tlie convict prisons, are. as - Ma- 8 f ^ general rule, endeayoiirinsr to regain their characters, and to become useful in ■^ ' ■^ ' their stations, whereas the latter, as a more general rule, eonlinue to prey upon society. These indications more than confirm the opinion expressed in my Report for 1852, to the effect that 1,000 prisoners discharged from the convict prisons after periods of three or four years' corrective discipline and industrial training, would he far less injurious to society than 1,000 prisoners discharged at the doors of some of our large prisons, from which there issue, in some cases, as many as 8.000 or 10,000 in the course of a single year. 'J'he inference to he deduced from this is, that it is at this moment of tar more imjjortance to find a satisfactory answer to the (piestion, what are we to do with our ordinary criminals? than to confine the attention to that section of them iisuallv termed convicts. On this question I find the following remarks in the 31st Report of Mr. Clay, the chaplain of the Preston House of Correction. 10G.5. Clidirman.'] I believe he is a very experienced chaplain? — A very experienced man ; it is his 31st Report. 1066. Is he a very able and intelligent chaplain ? — A'^erv much so, and he has always been so considered ; Mr. Clay says, " The real ijround for aiiprehension and alarm about discl.arged criminals, is not to be looked for in the 1,,'500 or 1,600 convicts annually liheiated from the admirable relonnatorv institutions at Portland, Dartmoor, &e., but from the 70,000 or 80.000 offenders of difl'erent classes and degrees who are every year turned out of pri>ons in which crime is encouraged by corrupting association. Tiiere are more really ' dangerous char.icters' discharged from such ])risons in a fortnight, than could be found among all the * ticket-of- leave ' men liberated from Portland, Dartmoor, Parkhurst and Portsmouth in a yf-ar." I entirely concur in the view which Mr. Clay takes of that subject. There is one point upon which 1 should wish to ofi'er another observation, which is, that the letters received from the ticket-of-leave men and others acquainted with their circumstances, afford most satisfactorv testimony of good feeling and good intentions, as well as of the success of the great majority in obtaining employ- ment. So far from the measure which was introduced by the Act of 18')3 havino* failed, it has undoubtedly been attended with a success which none but those who have had opportunities of seeing the ameliorating influences of just and considerate treatment, combined with religious and moral instruction, could have expected. I should wish also to take this opportunity of acknowledging with gratitude the efforts of a large body of magistrates, clergymen, and others, who have benevolently co-opciated with tiie Covernment in lending a helping hand to many a poor man who but for their aid would have sunk under the difficulties with which he was surrounded. 1067. Do you refer to those men who have been released ? — Those who have been released. H'68. Is that with leference to their obtaining future employment ? — With reference to their obtaining employment. 1069. 1 suppose there have been great difficidties experienced in that respect? — They have had to contend figainst great difticulties, and that is another strong indieation of the success of the measure. There was a very strong prejudice against them ; almost the whole of the press took up the question- One of the metropolitan police magistrates and some others never lost an opportunity of denouncing them. '1 he result was very materially to increase the difficulties « hich tiiesemen had to contend against, and but for the assistance which they received, they would have been overwhelmed by them. 1070. You say that very great assistance has been kindly rendered ? — Very great assistance. 1071. Has that been the case throughout the country, so far as your observa- tion has gone? — Throughout the whole country. There are very few exceptions ■where gentlemen have been applied to by the chaplains of the diflerent jirison-*, that they have not responded to the application, and lent them a helping hand. 1072. Will you describe shortly the system of releasing a prisoner? — The steps taken in releasing a man are as follows : each prisoner during the long term of his confinement has had a certain gratuity awarded to him for his industry; the amounts of these gratuities have been explained by other wit- nesses ; but the result is, that after three or four years' confinement they accu- .mulate SELECT COMMITTEE ON TRANSPORTATION. 99 mulate on an averao;e, perhaps, 6^ or 7/., which is paid in two or three instal- Colonel J. Jebb, merits. In addition to this, the governur delivers to each man on his discharge k. e.,c. b. a certificiite, which I now hand in. — 1073. Will you read it? — This certificate is filled in, " Certificate for well- 5 May 1856. conducted men discharged on license. A. B. ; born at Islington ; age 25 ; period passed; in separate or other confinement 10 months; on public works three years and two months; original trade or occupation, tailor; present trade, car()eiiter. These are to certify that his conduct under penal discipline has been as follon s : on public works, ijood ; in other confinement, very good. Given with- out erasure. Date, 1st Mav 1856. (Signed) W. C, governor of Portland Prison." 1074. That same form, viutatis mulandis, is ^i\en to each person? — Yes, if he has conducted himself well. 107.5. Mr. Adderley.] Is that a certificate given merely on discharge with license, or on final discharge r — On pardon, as well as on license ; it is given in both cases ; a certificate of character is a useful thing for a man to have by him. 1076. Chalrma?!.'] Something- has been said about the influence which the chaplains are supposed to use with regard to the determination of the period when a convict shall be recommended for license ; is there any observation •which you wish to make upon that point? — There exists an erroneoiis impression that the chaplains have been required in all cases to satisfy themselves that a convict is a reformed man before he is recommended to the Secretary of State for a license. A little reflection will show that such a condition would be both impracticable and unjust ; impracticable, because no sufficient means exist of forming an accurate opinion of the reliijious state of any one, much less of a prisoner ; and unjust, because a prisoner should not be deprived of any privilege he might gain on an opinion unsupported by evidence. In carrying out a system of discipline in which encouragement of good conduct is held out, insuperable difficulties would arise, if persevering etibrts on the part of the convict to attain a certain object were acknowledged by the governor, and neutralised by the opinion of the chaplain. Such an opinion would be valuable ; but there is little doubt that the ministerial usefulness of a chaplain would be greatly impaired if much weiglit were assigned to it in the distribution of rewards. It would besides be open to the objection of holding out a bonus to hypocrisy, which under present circumstances is not one of the sins of prisoners. 1077. You have intimated an opinion that the general results of the Act of 1853 have been beneficial r — I think very much so. 1075. Is that an opinion which has been gaining strength during the experi- ence which we have had of the system, or did you entertain it more strongly at one time than you do now .' — 1 entertained a very confident expectation of it at the commencement of the system, and I do not think that that opinion has been at all set aside by the result, but is confirmed. 1079. t)o you entertain it now as strongly as you have done at any other time ? — Quite as strongly. 1 080. Has there been in your judgment time enough since the passing of that Act to enable us to form a very decided opinion as to the tendency and effects of the Act.- — We have upwards of 5,000 cases to judge by, and nearly two years' and six months' ex|)erience of the operation of it, and as it only reaches at present something like 8 per cent, on the whole, I think tliere are sufficient grounds for forming a favourable opinion of it. I feel assured tiiat at the com- mencement many of those with whom I communicated on the subject would have gladly comproniisid for 20 or 30 per cent, of recom-niittals. In the first year it was expected that almost every man would fail under the trial of a license in this country. 1 oN I . In your opinion, will the successive stages of discipline now established afford a suliicient inducement to encourage the men to industry and good con- duct? — 1 much doubt it, because obtaining release at an earlier period is by far the greatest inducement that could be ofiered to the men, and in that opinion I am suj)ported by those who have the more immediate charge of the prisoners. 10S2. You concur then with Captain Whitty upon this subject? — 1 refer to Captain Whitty, and also to the governors of the prisons and the chaplains. 1083. You heard Captain Whitty's evidence upon that point? — Yes. 1084. Is that your opinion also? — That is quite my opinion ; if the penal servitude is to be carried out during the whole period of the sentence, I cannot 0.42, N 2 hope 100 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE Colonel J. Jebb, hope ever again to see the high standard of moral discipline maintained which 11. E., c. B. has been established at Portland. loS.'j. Why? — Because there is not sufficient encouragement to induce the 5 May 1856. jj^gj^ ^^ conduct themselves in the way in which they hitherto have done. If you will permit me, I will mention to you the state of discipline at Portland pre- viously to the commencement of this system. An opinion on several points, having an important bearing on the effects of the discipline, may be formed by reference to the small number of punishments for prison offences, and the evidence of cheerful industry afforded by the large quantity and varied nature of the work undertaken and executed by prisoners. In the year 1853 the average daily number of prisoners being 1 ,041 under strict discipline, there was only one punishment daily to 750 prisoners ; in the following vear the average number of reports against prisoners was only one to 852 daily on an average number of 1,477 prisoners. It may further be stated, that out of a total prison population of 1,977 during the year 1853, the number of offenders against the rules was only 621, and that 1,426 convicts passed the whole year under that strict discipHne without a single report for misconduct being recorded against them. 1086. Mr. Adder/ei/.] Was there no mitigation of sentence under the pre- vious system at Portland before 1853 ? — Yes ; they were then under the old system ; and I may further remark, that it Srhows the state of discipline to which that prison had been brought by Captain Wliitty and those who liad succeeded him at Portland, when I say that, during one of those years, the men were under the most painful suspense as to their future destination ; the report got among them that they were not to be transported, but they were not at all aware of the time that they would be required to serve ; and, notwithstanding that, they had such confidence in their officers, and that the Government would keep faith with them, that they continued to behave in a most exemplary manner. 1087. Chairman.^ What is the distinct inference which you wish the Com- mittee to draw from these facts ? — That if the men have not the inducement of a remission held out, they will not struggle so hard to gain smaller privileges by industry and good conduct. loSS. You say that tliose were the results under the system as it existed, and that, in your judgment, the present svstem, which does not hold out the same motive for hope, will not be attended with equally favourable results? — I should fear not. An instance of that occurred during the last year ; about the period when men under sentence of seven years' transportation would have embarked for the colonies (which was two years from the date of conviction), those men who were under sentence of penal servitude for four years became very uneasy, and there was a serious outbreak at Portland, which was only repressed by very vigorous measures at the time. It was a satisfactory indication of wliat the discipline was, when I mention that those men who were under sentence of seven years' transportation, and who were to be released at the end of three years, almost without exception, stood by the otticers ; and I believe it was even dis- cussed among them, whether they should not take the law into their own hands, and repress the penal service men, who were inclined to be rebellious. 1 o8y. Is there any modification of the new system which you would suggest as the result of your experience ? — I consider from what I heard when the Act of 1853 was under discussion, that it was intended the sentences to penal servi- tude should be deemed equivalent to the sentences to transportation ; and therefore, as a general rule, the men would have no claim for the same amount of remission which had been given when the sentence was commuted from trans- portation into imprisonment. But it is of importance to discipline that there should be a proportionate remission of these long sentences. If in passing sen- tences, a maximum sentence were passed, with an understood minimum, that is to say, supposing four years were considered to be a proper term to represent seven years' transportation, that then a maximum sentence of five years should be passed, so that there might be twelvemonths which might be remitted in certain propor- tions as a stimulus or reward for good conduct. The same practice has long been followed with respect to sentences of seven years' or ten years' transportation; the maximum was the extent of the sentence, the minimum one-half of it, passed in a prison. 1090. Then you propose that a sentence of five years should be passed.^ — Yes, witli the intention of carrying out a minimum of four. It would not, of course, interfere with the Queen's prerogative of pardoning at any period of the sentence 5 SELECT COMMITTEE ON TRANSPORTATION. loi sentence; but if such a sentence were passed, with the understandings that the ColouelJ. J^bt, practice of commuting the sentence of five years into four years, was distinctly R- s., c. b. recognised by ParUament, it would relieve the Secretary of State from responsi- bility, and would work well for the discipline. It would have the iurther good ^ May 185C. effect that the longer sentence would have a more deterring effect out of doors. loQi. But in whatever way it is to be effected, your opinion is that a change is in itself desirable, as supplying under the new system that motive of hope which existed and produced these good effects under the old? — Yes; and I do not hesitate to say that it is an essential thing, because, as these men are to be released in this country, all interests are concerned in releasing them with indus- trious habits and good intentions, and to a certain degree reformed. 1092. Have you made it your business to inquire into the systems adopted in other countries, in order to obtain light upon this question of releasing con- victs on license .' — Not to any great extent. 1 093. Have you any information which you can give the Committee with regard to that question ? — I can state generally, that with respect to France, I believe that there existed a power to subject certain categories of criminals to some such restrictions as our tickets of leave. They were released provisoirenieTit ; I believe, however, it has not been found to answer the purpose. My impression is, that it was the practice to assign a certain district to a prisoner released in this way, and to maintain a close superintendence of the police over him, very much on the same plan as that which is maintained over convicts on tickets of leave in Van Diemen's Land and Western Australia. The natural effect of this would be, in a country not accustomed to convicts, to deprive the men of the means of obtaining employment ; that, of course, would render men reckless ; they probably would commit some fresh crime, or endeavour to escape from the district, and the penalty of a revocation of the license and its consequences would follow. 1094. Within what kind of district do you understand that they are confined in France ; a particular town or a particular department ? — 1 should think it was a particular department within which they should live. 1095. Are they small districts? — Of that I am not aware. 1096. Is it on account of that limitation that you think the system objec- tionable ? — T think the system of maintaining a superintendence over the men objectionable on that ground, and on the previous consideration of the subject ; I always strongly objected to maintaining any close supervision over our men Avhen they were released, feeling that it would very much affect their prospect of obtaining their livelihood. 1097. You are against limiting the district? — Certainly; I think it a great object to disperse the men as much as possible, and to let them be absorbed in the labour market of the country, wherever they may be. 1098. Then, would you generally make it a license for the whole of the LTnited Kingdom and the Channel Islands? — I think so. loOQ. The words of the 9th section of the Act of Parliament are, "a license to be at large in the United Kingdom and the Channel Islands, or in such part thereof respectively as in such license shall be expressed ; "' do you think it better, as a general rule, to make it a license for the whole of the United Kingdom and the Channel Islands? — The only exception which has ever occurred to me as offering an advantage would be, to prevent the pickpockets and others from large returning to large towns, and, to a certain extent, that has been practically acted upon ; for instance, a few of the London pick- pockets have been excluded from the counties of Middlesex, Kent, and Surrey. 1 1 00. In how many cases should you say ? — Very few. 1101. Have you any notion about how many? — I should think not 40, altogether. 1 102. Mr. IVickham.'] If you were to exclude them from London, they would go to Manchester or Liverpool, would they not ? — Yes ; 1 rather think that the Secretary of State has determined that he will not have any further restrictions. I have so understood. 1103. Chairman.] You do not advise any further restrictions ? — I do not think there should be any further restriction, excepting that to which I have alluded ; but that is open to the objection which has just been urged, that it drives the man to some other place ; therefore I do not think it would be well to act upon it as a general rule ; and probably the best way of deahng with the whole class 0,42. N 3 would 102 MINUTES or EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE Colonel J. Jebh, would be to let them be at large ia the terms of the Act, within the United Kingdom R. E., c. u. or ihe Channel Islands. 1 104. Would you go beyond that; it has been suggested here, that it would 5 May 1856. Ijp exiR'dient to modify the Act to such an extent as to have a license to go beyond those limits of the United Kingdom and the Ciiannel Islands? — I think it would be very fair to let tliem go to any of our colonies ; at present, the restriction upon tbem is very inconvenient. Many of tliem have the means of emigrating to Canada, or to Australia, but they would nut be safe under the license witiiin the terms of the Act. 110.5. Would you suggest a modification of the Act of Parliament in this respect r — I should. 1 think it would be of advantage to include our own colonies ; to give a licence to be at large within our own colonies, or in Glreat Britain. Tiiere could not be any objection to that, that I am aware of. I loi). Tt involves questions of policy, I suppose ? — Entirely so, and I have no doubt the limitation was introduced with that view. 1 107. Is there any other light from foreign countries that you have obtained, which you can give the Committee ? — Upon that point I have nothing further to state. I loS. In your ojiinion is it desirable to maintain a more eti'ective surveillance of the men released on license? — I think not, for the reasons which 1 have already stated. 1109. Have you formed an opinion as to whether it is expedient that steps should be taken for the establishment of a new penal colony <* — Mr. Elliott has spoken helore the Committee upon that subject with so much more authority than 1 could speak, that I should wish to refer the Committee to his opinion. I would merely state that I entirely concur in what he says as to the difficulties to be apprehended from any attempt to found a new penal colony ; the diffi- culties are not so much in establishing a colony, and in employinu- the niea there, but in ai)Sorbing the labour afterwards. No difficulty arises till the period of the release of a convict ; then comes the question of whether he can find employment, and whether he becomes a good member of society, or a paujjer, or is likclv to cause fresh expense and trouble. 1110. You mentioned one change in the law which you would suggest, namely, an alteration of the 9th section of the Act of Parliament, as to the limits within which the Secretary of State should be empowered to grant a license ; is there any other alteration of the existing law which you would suggest as advisable? — I have no other change to suggest; the Act of 1853 substitutes penal servitude for transportation, and defines the terms of each ; the practice of the courts might iWffer ; for example, it would be quite competent for any judge to pass solely sentences of penal servitude, the terms of which corresjiond with the periods of transportation, and are prescribed in the Act ; theiefore I do not know that any change in the law would be required on those grounds, even if it were determined to suspend sentences of transportation, and substitute those of penal servitude. nil. What is the change in the practice which you would advise? — That would depend upon the decision of the Government with respect to transporta- tion ; if difficulties occurred in carrying out transportation, or if it were found objectionable on other grounds, it would be competent to pass sentences of penal servitude instead, to be carried out in Great Britain, Gibraltar, Bermuda, or Western Australia 1112. Have not the judges now the power, with regard to terms of 14 years, or upwards, to give an alternative sentence of transj)ortation or penal servitude ? — Yes, they are all defined in the Act. 1113. Under 14 years there is no power of passing sentence of tranporta- tion ?— 'J'here is not ; but the periods of penal servitude corresponding to the original terms of transportation are laid down in the Act ; six years' penal servitude represent 14 years' transportation, and so on. 1114. Then your suggestion is, that with regard to those cases where there is still an alternative, the judge should pronounce a sentence of penal servitude, and not pronounce a sentence of transportation ?— It is a question of policy, but would not require any change in the Act. ^ 1 1 1.5. You mean that he has power under the Act to do that now r— Yes. 1116. Mr. Mussel/.'] Is it vour opinion, that prisoners sentenced to penal servitude should, with retrard" to the remission of their sentences and the mode * of SELECT COMMITTEE ON TRANSPORTATION. 103 of treatment in different prisons, be ])lacerl precisely on the same footing as Colonel /. Jehb, prisoners under sentence of transportation; does your evidence go to tliat r-e., c. b. extent ; you are of opinion, that withdrawing from a prisoner under sentence of ~ ~~ penal servitude the motive of hope is injurious? — V^es. 5 ay 5 . ! 1 1 7. Suppose you placed a man sentenced to four years' penal servitude on the same footing as a prisoner sentenced to seven years' transportation, that is, with a view to liaving a license at a certain period of his sentence, do you think that that would be desirable ; that would place him precisely on the same footino: as a prisoner under sentence of transportation? — There arc certain periods of penal servitude in the Act which represent transportation. 1118. A man sentenced to four years' penal servitude must serve his time ? — Yes. 1119. Instead of servinsj his time, would you allow him to have a license to go at large after a certain period of proI)ati(in, as you allow a man under sentence of transp(jrtation ? — That is what I think is so great an object, namely, to have that kind of sentence which will admit of a remission of a portion of it on good conduct. The evidence which I gave just now on that point was to this etJect, that if a sentence of tive years were passed instead of four, and if Parliament distinctly recognised the practice of the Secretary of State generally remitting one-fourth of that sentence on good conduct, the same certainty of punishment would follow, because there would be a minimum of four years, and a maximum of five ; I think it would have a better effect out of doors as well as within the prison. 1 120. But would not it be rather, so to speak, a fraud upon the prisoU'T; it would leave him precisely in the same situation as he is in now? — It would soon become generally known that a prisoner would have to serve at least four years, and might serve five. 1121. Mr. B. Dcnisun.'] Would it be at all necessary to have an Act of Par- liament for that ? — No. 1122. Has not the Secretary of State the power now of I'emitting an}' part of a penal sentence ? — Yes. 1123. C/iairnuni.'] Having the period fixed, the Secretary of Stale, of course, would have the general power of remitting any portion ot it ? — Yes. 1124. Mr. B. Danson.'] AVas the rule that the whole period of penal servi- tude should be really carried out, anything more than a rule laid down by the Secretary of State himself? — It was the intention of Parliament, I believe, that the sentence of penal servitude shoidd be carried out. 112/5. Had not the Secretary of State the power of remitting any part of a sentence to penal servitude for four years ? — Yes. 1 1 2(). And has yet r — And has yet. 1 127. Then the rule which was issued "as only a rule issued from the Secre- tary of Stale's office? — It was so. I 12.S. You said that you thought it would be desirable that there should he a minimum and a maximum ; what would be the advantage of a minimum ? — Because the certainty of punishment is always considered to have a very bene- ficial effect, as far as repression of crime goes ; tiie certainty of punishment is always held to be of importance; if the minimum peiiod were uncertain, the prisoners might s|>eculate upon getting a very short period of confinement, instead of a long one. I I 29. Have not some of the judges mentioned that they really do not know what sentences will be carried into effect ?— -That I do not know. 1 1 30. C/iairma)/.] Have you formed an opinion as to whether it would be advisable to introduce sentences of long im])risonmeat, before having recourse to a sentence of penal servitude? — I think it would be of great importance to exhaust all ordinary sentences of imprisonment before having recourse to a period of penal servitude. 1131. Will you explain your meaning? — I incidentally alluded to that point in one of my former answers, in which i showed the gieat number who were sentenced to transportation, and the very limited number who were sentenced to periods of imprisonment exceeding one year. The void which, I think, requires fillin:f up, is the period between one years imprisonment and four years' penal servitude ; I think if more sentences of moderate periods of imprisonment were passed, it would be an advantage. ii.-;2. Do you mean by "moderate periods," two or three years ?-— Perhaps ^•42. N 4 not 104 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE Colonel J. Jebb, not exceeding two years. As the practice formerly existed, it was virtually R. E., C. B. almost a step from six montlis' imprisonment to seven years' transportation; all ^ J, - second convictions for felony, however trifling they might be, were visited as a *^ " general rule with seven years' transportation. '133- 1^0 you think that more sentences of one year's imprisonment, and eighteen months', and two years', and so on, might be advantageously introduced ? — I think in the administration of criminal justice there would be a more just gradation of punishment if such sentences were resorted to. 1134. Have you any information to give the Committee upon the practice adopted in America of substituting imprisonment for transportation ? — In America they have no sentences of transportation, and the graver offences are visited with three, four, and five years' imjirisonment. 1 do not myself see any great objec- tion to the same practice being adopted here ; but it is a question of very grave importance in the administration of justice, and perhaps the most important that will receive consideration from this Committee. Transportation iias had for so long a period a hold on the public mind ; and it has been so very convenient to get rid of criminals altogether, that it should not create surprise if the prospect of relin- quishing it would meet with great opposition. So far as my own experience goes, however, I consider that transportation has in a great measure ceased to have the deterring effect which it had in former times. 1 135. You are aware that one very strong argument which has been used for transportation has been, that no sentence ever possessed the same amount of terror for prisoners, and those who might be disposed to follow illegal courses? — I have never held that opinion myself; from knowing the feelings of a very large body of men, and being generally aware of the circumstances, I am under the impression that the great amount of distress which is shown in court when a sentence is passed, arises from the sverance of the ties which exist between a criminal and his wife, family, and friends. I have seen more distress and agony exhibited by the side of an emigrant ship upon friends taking leave of each other, than I ever saw or heard of in court at the passing of a sentence of trans- portation, and yet emigration is not stopped by all the distress that is witnessed by the public. 1136. I understand you to be of opinion that that argument is pushed too far r— I think so ; most of the men at Portland at the time of the passing of the Act of 1853 were very much disappointed at the prospect of being imprisoned for a short time longer, and then released in this country, instead of having the promises of being transported fulfilled. 1137. The gold discoveries had been heard of then?— They had; but the same feeling existed before. 1 138. Have you any information to give the Committee as to the comparative expense of transportation as it existed before the passing of the Act of 1853, and of the present combined system of penal servitude and transportation r— This subject was under consideration in 1851, and with your permission I will lay before the Committee some of the calculations. Assuming that an average period of three to four years' imprisonment were substituted for the then sen- tences of transportation, the following might be assumed as data on which to calculate the maximum number who would be accumulated, and the expense. First, as regards Great Britain : If, as an assumed maximum, we take 3,000 as the number sentenced annually (and that exceeds the number which are usually sentenced), and that an average period of four years' imprisonment were to follow, the sentences of imprisonment, extending from the shortest term of penal servi- tude to life, would be 12,000. Of those there might be about 2,000 in separate confinement, and 10,000 on public works and in invalid establishments. The expense of an assumed maximum of 12,000 prisoners sentenced in Great Britain, of whom one-sixth would be in separate confinement, Avould be as follows : the maintenance of 2,000 prisoners in separate confinement, at 24 /. per head, would be 48.000 /. The maintenance of 7,500 able-bodied on public works, at 23 /., 172,500 /. The maintenance of 1,500 invalids, at 25 /., 37,500 1. ; and the main- tenance of 1,000 juveniles, at 20/., 20,000/. The gross total annual cost of 12,000 prisoners would therefore be 278,000/. From this must be deducted the earnings of 12,000 ]3iisoners, which I take at the very low figure ot 12/. on the average per annum. On public works those men would, most of them, earn about 20/. per head, but in separate confinement they would not earn more than 71. or 8/.; 10/. per head at the most; therefore, the average ot ^ 12 /. SELECT COMMITTEE ON TRANSPORTATION. 105 12^. per head may be considered very low. The value of the labour would Colonel J. JeM, amount to 144,000/. The net cost to the country, therefore, would be n.T:.,c.B. 134 000/.; the net estimate for 1,200 females, 1.0,200/.. and that would give -MaviBse a net cost for 13,200 male and female prisoners of 153,200/. In the fore- ^ 7 ^ • going calculations it is assumed that a proportion of the prisoners would be em- ployed on public works at Gibraltar, Bermuda, and Western Australia in the following proportions : — Gibraltar and Bermuda, 2,300 ; Western Australia, 550 ; that is, 2,850. Assuming an average period of imprisonment of three years at each of these places, there would be an annual relief of one-lhird of these numbers. The average expense of passage to Bermuda and Gibraltar would be about 71. 10s.; this for 800 prisoners would amount to 6,000/. The expense of the voyage to Western Australia for 200 prisoners, at 25/., would be 5,000/. The total annual expense for transport of convicts to Gib- raltar, Bermuda, and Western Australia, to be added to the maximum calcu- lation, would be 11,000/. I have an abstract of the whole number, which, including 5,250 men for Ireland, may be added, a constant number of 5,220, and an expense of 57,750/. The following is an abstract of the foregoing estimates of an assumed maximum number of 17,250 prisoners sentenced in Great Britain and Ireland: the gross estimate for 12,000 prisoners in England and at Gibraltar, Bermuda, and Western Australia, is 278,000. The gross estimate for 5,250 prisoners in Ireland, is 57,750/. The estimate for transport services to Bermuda, Gibraltar, and Western Australia, as before, is 11,000/- The gross cost would be 346,750/.; and the estimated cost for 1,200 females, 24,000/., which will bring it up to 370,750/, 1 1 39. Sir J. Fa/fington.] That is the gross cost of the new system ? — Yes ; deduct the earnings of 12,000 prisoners, at 12/. per head, as before, 144,000/.; deduct the earnings of 5,250 prisoners in Ireland, at 51. per head, 26,250/. ; deduct the earnings of 1,200 females, at 41. per head, 4,800?. ; that is, 175,050/., to be deducted from the 370,750/, leaving net 195,700/. Now, the gross estimate of the expense of the system of transportation, as it stood some years ago, for 15,720 prisoners, was 587,294 /. The real cost to the country, after deducting the value of their labour on public works, was 419,476/. I should mention, that, in estimating this as net cost of adopting imprisonment instead of transportation, I do not include any of the expenses which now are going on in the convict colonies, and which, for some few years, will still be required for public and other purposes ; but I look to it, that in a few years all expenses on the ground of transportation ought to cease in those colonies when no more convicts are sent to them, and that the absolute expenses which would be incurred in penal establishments at home and at Gibraltar and Bermuda would be all that would be chargeable. The foregoing is an estimate of numbers calculated on data as they stood in 1851 ; namely, 3,000 to be annually sentenced to four years' service. I do not think, however, the numbers would accumulate so as to reach 17,250 ia Great Britain and Ireland, under any circumstances. I am of opinion that ihe present estabhshments at home and at Gibraltar, Bermuda, and Western Australia, would accommodate all the convicts likely to be on the hands of the Government. In connexion with this point, which would be one of great importance in any change of system, I would beg leave again to submit the few observations which occur in my Third Report for 1849 : "There can be no question that if it be necessary from any cause to carry into etiect ()robationary periods of discipline in this country, and that, in consequence, a body of 10,000 or 12,000 men are to be maintained by the Government, they ought to he usefully employed ; it is a confiscation of labour, in which the Crown iias a vested interest. This, as a matter of finance, will not in the opinion of some be regarded as the least of tiie questions to be considered, and by all will be acknowledged to be of some importance. One of the objects at Portland is to show to v\hat extent this can be done consistently with other and more paramount considerations; and when the system shall have been tested by experience, I hope, with the co-operation of the Admiralty and Ordnance authorities, to be enabled to render the l^ibour in the dockyards and arsenals much more useful and valuable than it ever has been." The experience since gained at Portland has more than re^dised my expectations, both as regards the moral improvement of the men and the amount of Avork executed ; the ascertained value of the work performed by the convicts at that prison for the first four years was as follows: in 1849, 7,214/. 6s. ll^/. ; 1850, 14,067/. 16s. 7 J.; 1851, 20,54U. 15i'. 5c/.; 1852, 20,568/. 0.42. O 1140. Mr. so6 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE ColonelJ. Jebb, 1140. Mr. Adderley.^ To what number of prisoners? — The prisoners varied B. E., c. B. during those years. ~~ 7" 1141. About what number ? — Durinp; the last of those years there were 800 ; 9 ayi 5 • (luring the former years there were not so many. I can, however, extend this return. In the year 18.')3 there was an average of 1,040 prisoners, and the estimated value of the labour was 2G,r)00/. ; in the year IS54, the average num- ber of prisoners was 1,470, the estimated value of their labour was 40,.'350^. ; and in the year 1855 there was an average of 1,480, and the estimated value of their labour was 37,980/. ; wdiich will bring the annual average to nearly 26/. per head. I would take the opportunity of mentioning one circumstance which has frequently been referred to, namely, the great advantage of establishino- prisons in agricultural districts, and employing the prisoners in agriculture. Now, carrying on agriculture is an (jxcellent employment as regards the moral training of the men, but so far as profit is concerned, it is nothing to be cora- , pared to the labour at ])ublic works, such as that which is going on at Portland, or the employment in the arsenals and dockyards of Portsmouth and Woohvich ; it is, however, an excellent thing to fall back upon, so far as reii;ards the moral training. We have had some experience at Dartmoor ; but so far as profit is concerned, it is not at all favourable. 1 14'2. Sir /. Pa/cingto/!.] It is not self-supporting ? — No. 1 143. You are under some difficulty as to soil, are you not ? — Yes ; it would be better if we could grow tlax and potatoes. 1144. C/udrman.] Have you any information to give us as to measures for assisting discharged prisoners ? — Unless a prisoner has some assistance on discharge, such as that which has been extended by many benevolent persons to prisoners released on licence, he is placed in the greatest possible difficulty ; and I do not feel a doubt that the number of re-committals to ordinary prisons, which reach a far larger number than those of the license-holders, is due to tliat cause, of the men being discharged perfectly friendless into their old haunts, ■where they are obliged to fall back upon crime for a means of subsistence. In France and other countries this question has been brought forward by many benevolent and distinguished individuals. The Government in France have recognised its necessity, and, though no exact plan has been determined upon, it is still under consideration, and is likely to be organized upon some footing which will give material aid to prisoners on their release, and probably diminish the bad effects which follow from their having no means of subsistence and existence. It is especially necessary with respect to juvenile criminals, but the same observ^ation will apply, in a great degree, to adults. The voluntary efforts of benevolent persons are wholly insufficient to meet the necessities of the case, and can accomplish but a very small portion of what is required. They indicate a void in our social arran2:ements which requires to be filled, and the great success of the existing instituiiuns which have been formed proves their utility, and the urgent necessity for increasing the number. 1145. You mean the voluntary institutions? — Yes, voluntary institutions. If it were only on the low ground of financial expediency, the Government would do well to second and stimulate these humane efforts. Many a man, whe- ther from having been brought to see the error of his ways, or from the dread of punishment, would gladly avoid coming again within the grasp of the law, if it were within his power to maintain himself by honest industry. Without friends or the means of employment, what are they to do ? Sir William Cole- brooke, lale Governor of Ijarbados. who is a very distinguished and a very bene- volent man, remarked on a recent occasion in the colony, " There is a duty which society owes to the discharged prisoner which, until of late years, may have been too much neglected in all countries. 1 he taint of crime is not readily removed, and the difficulty of regaining a place in society, when once forfeited, has caused but too many to relapse into evil associations. Some interposition is, therefore, needed in the way of prevention," 1146. Mr. Adderlcij.'] Where do those remarks of Sir William Colebrooke appear ? — I received them from him in a paper which he sent me. 1 147. We have not got them in any despatch .- — \o. 1148. Chainnan.'] Have you any suggestions of a practical nature to lay before the Committee, with a view to supplying what you have termed this void in our system? — No precise plan occurs to me; it is too large and important a subject to be disj osed of hastily ; but in this country, where there are SELECT COMMITTEE ON TRANSPORTATION. 107 are so many benevolent institutions for almost every possible contingency or Colonel J. Jebi^ evil that can happen to humanity, I think if it were generally known that h. e., c. b. there did exist this great desideratum, the means would be found by private individuals of assisting prisoners on dischar^ze. I am satisfied that it is one of 5 May 1856. the most important measures in the social system which is now required ; the only practical suggestion which I could make, would be that some assistance should be given to the societies which might be formed, and certitied to be working any amount of good among- that class of prisoners. 1149. Assistance from public funds, you mean? — Assistance from pubhc funds, in the same way that assistance from pubHc funds is jiiven for educational purposes and other objects. My own opinion is, that there would be less expense in tlie punishment of crime if there were more expense incurred in the prevention of it. 1 150. There is a matter on which Captain O'Brien refers for information to you, with reference to the women who are leaving Brixton, and who Ave under- stand are now to go into an institution at Fuliiam ? — The Refuge at Fulham will be devoted to one of the objects connected with the discipline of female convicts. 1151. What information can you give the Committee with regard to the pro- posed institution at Fulham ? — The Committee being aware of the system of discipline pursued at Millbank and at Brixton, with reference to the females, I would merely observe, that whatever difficulties might arise on other points con- nected with them, it is obvious that those which would occur on their discharge, ■ recjuire the most earnest consideration. Viscount Palmerston, when Secretary of State for the Home Department, communicated to me his views upon this important question, and directed me to submit to him some plan for disposing of the females after undergoing a certain period of their confinement ; I gave my best consideration to the subject, and addressed to Mr. Waddington the fol- lowing letter, which will explain the views of Lord Palmerston, as I have embodied them in it. 1 15 J. What is the date of your letter? — The 16th of December 1853. "Sir;- I have to acknowledge the receipt of your letter of the 16th ultimo, acquainting me with reference to the disposal of female convicts from Brixton, that Viscount Palmerston is of opinion that it would be very desirable to place women in some intermediate condition between close imprisonment and discharge on license, and that his Lordship is not without hope that some means may be devised for the formation of some establisimient under the control of the Government, in which they might, after ending their close imprisonment, be put under quahfied restraint, to occupations of industry, the produce of which would partly pay lor their support, while the habits, which such occupations would create, would tend to put the women in a way to earn their livelihood honestly, after being finally discharged, conveying also Lord Palmerston's request that 1 will endea- vour to submit some scheme for carrying the suggestion into effect. In reply, I beg to state, that, having given the subject full consideration, it appeared to me that if an establishment, under the immediate control of the Government, were formed, it would necessarily be so closely identified with the prison, that it would not be calculated for securing the means of employment on discharge or disposal by emigration. I therefore sought to avoid the difiiculties inseparable from a Government estabhshment, by submitting a proposition to the corpora- tion of the Refuge for the Destitute, an old established and most valuable institution, which has, for many years, been pursuing a course of unobtrusive practical usefulness, and whose objects are now entirely confined to females of a class similar to those who will be discliarged from Brixton ; this establishment is at Dalston. With a view of ascertaining how far the corporation might be induced to entertain the question, I addressed a letter to the secretary, Mr. S. Gurney Hoare. 1 beg leave also to state, that at the request of the secretary, I attended a meeting of the corporation of the Refuge, and from what passed during the discussion. I have reason to hope that an arrangement may be made which bids tair to be a satisfactory solution of some of the difiiculties which will attend the disposal of women removed on license from prison. There will, how- ever, be many women who, tliough they might not be able to withstand the temptations of London and other large towns, would do well if placed under more favourable circumstances for entering on a new course of life. In any general arrangements, therefore, with respect to the disposal of females, I would again earnestly impress the importance of sending a proportion (if 0.42. O 2 it io8 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE Co]oBe\ J. Jebb, jt ^ere only 150 to 200 in the course of the year) to Western Australia." R. E., C. B. Althou"-h tiie principle of this mode of disposing of female prisoners was ■"7! ~ approved by the Secretary of State and the Lords of the Treasury, some dif- ^ "y * ^ ■ ticulties, chiefly of a iinancial nature, occurred in the discussion of it, and the contract with "the Refuge for the Destitute was therefore given up, much to my re"Tet. The possibility of forming a Government establisiiment of a less penal character than an ordinary prison, with a view to facilitate the women heino- eventually disposed of to their own advantage and that of the public, therefore, came under consideration. After much discussion of the subject, and extended inquiries, some premises, situated on the King's-road, at the entrance of the town of Fulham, known by the name of Burlington House, were purchased on advantageous terms. Tlie original buildings are under- going alterations, and will shortly he ready for the reception of 40 to 50 of the most exemplary of the prisoners from Brixton. A chapel and accom- modation for about 150 additional females will be completed in the course of the summer, and during the present year the estai)lishment will, I trust, be in working order. It will, however, I fear, be vain to expect the same good results that might have been anticipated from the Refuge for the Destitute. I refer particularly in this remark, to the loss of all chance of disposing of them at once by emigration. Of course, it is impossible that the Govern- ment could interfere in any scheme of emigration as applied to persons of that class. 1153. And that was one feature of the system at Dalston, was it? — There would have been no objection to the corporation of the Refuge, after having them in their establishment for six or twelve months, sending them out as emigrants in the way they do their own women ; but that difliculty having arisen, it must be submitted to; the first prisoners will be removed to the Refuge at Fulham to-morrow. 1154. How many? — We shall get 20 to-morrow, and an additional 30 shortly afterwards. 1155. How long have those women been at Brixton? — Most of them have been about three years under discipline. 1 1,56. Have you selected them according to the goodness of their behaviour ? — They have been selected according to their character, behaviour, and term of sentence unexpired. I was anxious not to receive anybody into the Refuge at Fulham who had more than 12 months to serve. I would ask permission to submit to the Committee the opinions of Mrs. Martin and Mr. Moran upon the Fulham Refuge. Mrs. Martin, the superintendent of Brixton prison, in her report for 1855, thus expresses her opinion of the discipline now in course of being established : " I cannot conclude my report without expressing my deep thank- fulness at the encouraging prospect held out to our ])risoners in the three stages of discipline recently established, especially in the last stage, the removal of the most improved convicts to Fulham Refuge. It is, indeed, a most important step, fraught with benevolence to the prisoner, and good to the community. Improvement may be strongly indicated in the first and second stages, hut it is in tiie third alone that we shall be able to test its reality, and send them forth with a reasonable expectation that they are permanently reformed." Mr. Moran, the excellent chaplain of that institution, in his report of the same year, also alludes to the recent changes ; he states, " The formation of a Government establishment at Fulham will, I have reason to hope, be attended with very happy results. Begun and carried on as it has been in the spirit of true Christian philanthropy, I have no doubt; of its ultimate success. I am thankful that the views to which I ventured to give expression last year on both the above arrangements, proved to be in accordance with your own. The prisoners seem very grateful for the efforts made for their improvement, and appear anxious, as a l)ody, to give a prooi of their gratitude by orderly and submissive conduct, and I trust they are resolved to try and earn their bread by honest industry for the time to come." It is not only satisf.ictory, but it lurnishes subbtantial ground for anticipating a favourable result to find' that officers so deeply interested in the welfare of the prisoners look forward to their labours being crowned with success. I do hope that a measure of success will attend it ; but our dithculties "ill commence on the discharge of the women from prison, and those difficulties chiefly arise from the acconuiiodation into which they can be received in refuges and other benevolent iuititutions being so very limited. The Elizabeth Fry Refuge is an excellent place ; SELECT COMMITTEE ON TRANSPORTATION. 109 place ; the Refuge at Dalston, in which Mr. Gurney Hoare takes a great interest, Colonel J. JM, is another. There is another at Manor Hill, Brompton, under Miss Neave. r. e.,c. b. 1157. Has the number of such refuges been increasing or otherwise ? — I think so ; i think there is a tendency towards establishing similar institutions and ^ ^^ ^^^o. reformatories all over the country, and a most important movement it is. 1158. All those institutions of course being supported by voluntary contri- butions ? — By voluntary contributions. 1159. You mentioned to the Committee Ofle or two points in which you thought that the Act of 16 & 17 Vict, was capable of amendment ; is there any other particular besides those which you have already specified, in which you think it desirable that that Act should be altered ? — I think not. The i)rovisions being full as regards leaving it to the discretion of the judge to sentence a man to a certain period of penal servitude or to transportation, there is sufficient provision in the Act to allow of any alteration in the practice which might be expedient. 1 160. You say that you think a different practice might be adopted under the Act, but that the Act itself is large enough in that respect? — Yes ; the only en- largement that occurs to mc would be to render the hcense available in the colonies, 1161. Having expressed your opinion with regard to the Act, is there any further suggestion which you would make for an improvement in the mode of carrying out that Act ? — There is none that 1 can suggest, excepting it were recog- nised by the Government to act more entirely upon sentences of penal servitude, instead of those for transportation ; and that would be limited by the means of disposing of men under sentence of transportation, as well as by the question of whelher transportation is or is not a deterring punishment. There is this anomaly now to deal with, that the heavier sentence of transportation is, I be- lieve, much less regarded by the convicts than the sentence of six years' penal servitude which represents it. 1 162. What do you suggest about that? — I have no suggestion to make but what I have just mentioned. It would be a matter of policy whether transpor- tation should be continued on the existing plan. 1163. Is there any other suggestion with which you can favour us ? — None that I am aware of. 1164. S>iv J. Pakingto?!.] With respect to the establishment at Fulham, you seem to speak of it as a refuge, rather thau as a prison r— It was an object as far as possible to divest it of a prison character, excepting as regards the safe custody of the women. 11G5. Then I presume you mean to send to that refuge only the best conducted women ? — Only the best conducted women. 1166. How would vou deal with the other portion of the women, namely, those who are not the best conducted, during the last period of their sentence ? — They are subjected to the classification which has been explained by Captain O'Brien, and which is laid down in the rules. We begin by the severest .disci|)hne which the Secretary of State thinks should be enforced upon female convicts ; that is to say, they are put at first to picking oakum, insteail of being allowed to work, and they are not allowed to wash or to cook ; but progressive changes go on from the first. They go through the lower stage at Millbank in four months ; they then go into an upper class, where the privilege of work, instead of picking oakum is afforded ; they then get to Brixton, where there are three classes established, each with progressive stages of amelioration. 1 167. 1 presume that in the case of the class of women to whom I refer, they would in fact be detained at Brixton till the end of their sentence ? — Yes, just the same as those at Fulham, only that those from Fulham might be more confi- dently recommended for private service, or for other openings, than those who had been kej^t at Brixton, and who had not conducted themselves so well. 1168. And if the system of tickets-of-leave is at all adopted with regard to women, they will be given to those at Fulham ? — I should think so. 11 69. Are you favourably disposed to giving tickets-of-leave to women, if ■well conducted ? — 1 think it would be a wholesome restriction ; I found that several of the authorities in France, v;hom I consulted on the subject, were much disposed to approve of that mode of carrying out a sentence ; that is, by granting a remission. 1 170. Vou have stated, I think, that the estabhshmmt at Fulham will accom- modate about ISO women at one time : — Yes. 0.42. O 3 1171. And 110 MINUTES OF EVIDEN'CE TAKEN' BEFORE THE " »" E c B* ' ' • ~ ' • -^"^ ^'so that the intention is to detain them there about a year "r— •' • • Yes. May 1856, ' ^~^" ^*^ y^^ think that that establishment at Fulliam for 180 prisoners will be sufficient to accommodate all the women who, by good conduct, would be entitled to go there?--! was anxious to make it a matter ot experiment in the lirst instance, and not to create ;i greater amount of accommodation than we were likely to require ; but tliere exist the means of increasing the establishment to the extent of doubling it if necessary. 11 73. How soon will that establishment be in full operation? — It vvill not be in full operation, I think, till the autumn ; but it will commence to-morrow. 1 1 74. \ ou will send women there to-morrow .- — Ves. 1 175. Mr. 31. Millies.'] You have been lately in France ? — Yes. 117b. Did you inquire into the state of secondary punishment in that coun- try r — Not particularly ; my object was to ascertain the discipline applicable to females, and what was their system of granting licenses and treating juveniles. M77. Did you find that the question of secondary punishment was settled there, or that the difficulties of it were still felt, and' that it was undecided ? — 1 think it was somewhat undecided ; there appeared to be a difficulty in France in altering the law. I do not think that, generally speaking, they were satisfied with the operation of the whole of their system, especially as regards juveniles. 1178. Mr. S. Fitzgercild.'] At present the convict estabhshments abroad are. only, I believe, at Gibraltar and Bermuda? — At Gibraltar and Bermuda and Western Australia; Gibraltar and Burmuda maybe considered as two establish- ments analogous to Portland and Portsmouth. 1179. Western Australia is lor the reception of transported convicts? — Yes. 1180. Has your attention been called either to the possibihty or the pro- priety of establishing some other places as dep6ts for convicts similar to those at Gibraltar and Bermuda ? — There are not convicts enough to furnish men for them ; but I have always been of opinion tliat wherever useful public or national works are required, if the work is of an extent that will employ 400 or 500 men, and require five or six years for its execution, it would be worth while to put up an establishment for the purpose of executing the work. 1181. And employing upon those works the prisoners who would otherwise be detained in this country in penal servitude ? — Precisely so ; only that I have always regarded the public works at home as requiring all the convict labour that could possibly be devoted to them. 1182. Mr. M. J\Ji//ies.] Do you anticipate that the necessary public works which we are likely to have at home would be sufficient to absorb all the convict labour that could be acquired ? — For many years the whole of the convict labour might be absorbed. The works necessary at Portland will occupy 1,500 or 2,000 men for 20 years. Besides the breakwater and the formation of a harbour at that point, there are the fortifications, dock-yards, roads, and the different works which are necessary to constitute a large naval station. 1 183. Mr. S. Fitzgerald.] Would not there be a greater facility in the case of convict establishments such as you have mentioned abroad for convicts being absorbed into the population than there exists in England ; say in the colonies ? — That refers exclusively to trans|.orted convicts; it is of the greatest possible importance in a colony to which convicts are transported that there should exist a sufficient demand for labour to absorb them all at the expiration of their sentences ; otherwise those estabhshments would become precisely like Gibraltar or Bermuda, from which all the convicts are obliged to be removed at the expira- tion of their sentences. 1 1 84. At present the prisoners who are sent to Gibraltar and Bermuda at the expiration of their sentences are brought back here ? — They are brought home, and released. 1 1 85. If they were employed upon public works in the colonies, and, instead of being brought home, were to be set free there, would not there be a greater facilityto them either to obtain emjdoyment in the colonies, or to obtain em- ployment in foreign countries closely adjoining those colonies? — That question was moved some years ago by Lord Grey, who sent a circular to the whole of the colonies, impressing upon them the advantages which might result to them from receiving convicts with tickets-of-leave, or employing convicts generally, but without a single exception it was refused. Western Australia came SELECT COMMITTEE OX TRANSPORTATION. m came forward afterwards and petitioned strongly to have them. The want, I « , ] r t bb beheve, arose chiefly from the very distressed state of that colony, which required h. e, c.b. ' some stimulus or assistance. Mr. Elliott's evidence bears upon this question. - 1 iSO. Then in the case of convicts who are kept in confinement here for a cer- 5 >iay 1856. tain time, and are then sent to convict establishments abroad, such as I have referred to, you think it would be absolutely necessary to make it part of the system, that they should be brought back to England at the expiration of their sentences ? — It must be so if the labour cannot be absorbed ; but as regards the administration of discipline, it can be far more etl'ectively carried out here, and the interests of this country are very much involved in its being so carried out. If convicts -were neglected or demoralized by a lax system of disciphne abroad, ,and were then turned loose here, "e should have to suffer the whole of tiie evils • of it, and to pay the expense without receiving any of the advantages arising from the profitable application of their labour. I J 87. Mr. M. JJilnes.] Do you happen to be aware whether in Canada there is any convict establishment ? — There is not, that I am aware of; and no doubt the Canadians would very much resist any attempt to send convicts there. 1188. I meant whether there was any convict establishment for native Canadians ?• — Tliat I do not know. 1 1S9. Mr. S. Fit'gerah/.] When you spoke of transportation as not being a deterring- punishment, I presume you were referring rather to the effect upon the mind of the criminal himself: — Chiefly ; but tlien through the criminal and his representations to his friends of his condition in a colony, the inteUigence : gradually creeps back to the criminal population in England. 1 lyo. Are you not of opinion, that as a deterring sentence receiving its effect upon the relatives and friends of a prisoner, transportati;)n is a more deterring punishment than the sentence of penal servitude, in which case the relatives and friends know that in a very short period the criminal will be restored to them : — A very great amount of distress no doubt occurs, and is visible to evervbodv who happens to be present ; but from an extensive knowledge of the feelings of the men. and witnessing the disappointm.ent which they experienced at not helns sent abroad, and the public mind being familiarised now with emigration, 1 can state that transportation is a very difl'erent thing from what it was in times when men were sent to the other side of the world, and when emigration was scarcely known. I cannot regard transportation as a deterring or exemplary punish- ment. iigi. Is that rather with a view to the state of Australia- — The state of Australia is one thing; there are the gold fields; I would endeavour to explain these views to the Committee in another form. There is no question, 1 think, that capital punishment is deterring upon the whole population of the country. I beheve that the next most deterring punishment would he imprisonment for life ; such a sentence would make a very serious impression upon the wliole criminal population ; and there would be no difficulty wliatever in carrying out imprisonment for life, nor any inhumanity in it. It could not be carried out at Isewgate, nor at Coldbath Fields, or Pentonville, but it could be carried out at Dartmoor or at Portland, where a man during the whole period of confinement would probably be in better health and in better circumstances, as far as his physical wants were concerned, than he wouhl be if he were at large; but still there would be imprisonment for life before the criminal population. It is one great delect in the sentence of transportation that the punishment is out of sight. If a sentence is carried out at the Antipodes, it is just as much removed, and the man is almost as soon forgotten as if it had been carried out upon an individual ages back ; you might as well hold out in terronm tlie sentences uj)on the Greeks and Romans in ages gone by. The man and his crime and sentence are soon forgotten ; but imprisonment for life within reach would be a terrible realty. iU)-:>. 1 appnhend fnm that, that you would suggest that the periods of penal strvitude, instead of being less than the periods of transportation, should be the same ; that if a man, in fact, under the old law would have been sentenced to transportation for 14 years, you would suggest that he should be imprisoned for 14 years .' — No; the Act of 1853 provides a fair amount of imprisonment proportioned to different cases, as representing certain periods of transpor- tation, formerly awarded; a 14 years' sentence is represented bv six years" penal serviti.de, and so on ; but there is a provision in the Act lor f;enal servitude for life, as there is for transportation for life. 0-42. O4 1193. If, 112 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE Colonel J. Jebb, 1 103. If, instead of being sentenced to transportation for 14 years, a criminal R. E.,c. B. js 0,1 ]y sentenced to the equivalent of penal servitude, which is six years, are you not of opinion that both the criminal himself and the public generally are rather 5 May 1856. disposed to think that he has got a more lenient sentence than if the sentence had been 14 years' transportation? — No; I think that a man would choose, ■without hesitation, to go for 14 years abroad, because liis imprisonment must necessarily be much shorter. It would not be just to carry out a period of penal servitude of six years, and then to transport the man, because the Act contem- plates that a period of penal servitude for six years shall acquit liim altogether; that he shall be discharged in this country at the expiration of that time ; but if you were to put it to a man sentenced to 14 years, that he should be im- prisoned three or four years, and then go abroad for the 14 with a ticket of leave, I feel pretty sure that he would choose the sentence of transportation in prefer- ence to that of penal servitude. Therefore, I think, as I have just stated, that the apparently heavier sentences assigned to the heavier crimes are regarded by the prisoners as the lighter of the two, and this is an anomaly in penal legislation arisinir from circumstances. 1 194. Mr. M. Milnes.'] Are you content with the state of discipline at Port- land and other public works? — I do not think that the standard of discipline at Portland is so good at this moment as it was when there was a remission of a portion of the period of imprisonment given as a reward for good conduct ; suc- cessive stages of discipline have been established, which will go far to furnish a motive ; but I do not think it will be equal to what it was formerly. 1195. Chairman J] And you ascribe that to the cause which you have before mentioned ? — I do. 1196. ^Iy. M. Milnes.~\ But with the discipline as it is at Portland, is the conduct of the men on the whole satisfactory ? — Very, but not equal to what it was. 1197. You would not wish to establish any severer discipline? — No, certainly not. 1198. Are you able to correct offences against prison discipline easily ? — We have full power to do that ; but repressing ill conduct does not assist in reform- ing the men, which is one great point to be attended to. 1199. Have you ever made, in your own mind, any comparison of the amount of punishment necessary to procure good discipline in public works, as compared with the case of prisoners confined intramurally within four walls? — No, you can hardly form any comparison between the two, because the discipline on public works rests on the previous discipline in separate confinement ; this is an essential feature in the system. A man may have conducted himself very ill in separate confinement, but he may have been subdued by the punishments, and the different motives which have been held out to him there, and thus be prepared to conduct himself well, when he comes into association on pubUc works. 1200. Do you find that it frequently occurs that a man who has not been a well-conducted prisoner in soliiaiy confinement is good and luanageable on public works ? — Very frequently. 1201. And the contrary? — No, I do not think the contrary is so much the case, but I never instituted any particular comparison to enable me to form a very distinct opinion upon that point. 1202. Is there any corporal punishment used upon public works f.r offences against discipline ? — There is the power of inflicting corporal punishment, but it is exercised only in cases of violent insubordination, resistance to othcers, and other acts of iirregularity requiring an exemplary punishment; the other punishments are generally very light, and are usually limited to a few days' con- finement in a cell with bread and water, or something ot that kind. 1203. As an effect of bringing men together on public works, is there any operation of public opinion, as it were, which keeps men in good subordination there r — 1 think the public opinion of the place is in favour of good order and respectable conduct; iormerly it wiis (juite otherwise; at the time of the hulks a man dare not be known to be well conducted, excepting outwardly ; there was a dogged submission. Instead of that, there is now a cheerful submission to authority, respect towards the officers, ar.d a confidence in them, and gratitude to the Government for the considerate and just manner in which all their claims are attended to. These feelings exist under a very strict system of discipline ; but SELECT COMMITTEE ON TRANSPORTATION. 113 but every thing depends upon just and considerate treatment, and upon a cer- Colonel J. Jebb, tain degree of encouragement. r. e.,c. b. 1J04. ^lust not the effect of that be to produce a much more thorough and real reformation than you could have had under the other state of things? — 5 May 1856. I have no doubt of it. It is a much more reliable reformation than can be obtained irom sejiarate confinement alone. A man cannot be trained within four walls, when he never has an opportunity of putting any of his good resolutions into effect. Again, as regards the old system of the hulks, instead of improving the men, there is no question that it demoraUzed them to a very great extent. I remember perfectly, that in the first hulk which I went on board, I suggested that a much better supervision would be obtained over the men, if the wiiole of the divisions in which they were placed were removed. The governor said that I could not be aware of the danger of such a proceeding ; that neither him- self nor any of his officers would dare to venture down between decks if the men were not confined. There now exists no difficulty at any of the convict establish- ments ; the men are assembled in very large numbers, and nothing in the nature of a combined outbreak has ever occurred, e.x'cept on one or two occasions. 120.5. Have you had any means of following the ticket-of-leave men beyond the mere fact of the revocation of the tickets ? — To a very limited extent ; a cer- tain amount of correspondence has been maintained with the men by the chap- lains and governors, and that correspondence will be appended to a report, which I hope will shortly be ready to lay before Parliament. The whole corre- spondence is of the most satisfactory kind. 1206. Have you yourself held any intercourse with ticket-of-leave men after- wards who have been absorbed in society ? — To a very limited extent ; the chief correspondence with them is by the chaplains, who are much interested in their welfare. The men generally write most gratefully to them for the care and attention which has been paid to them during their incarceration ; and many of them attribute their reformation entirely to their imprisonment, and consider their sentence to have been a blessing in that respect. 1207. You said that you were against any arrangement which would collect large numbers of ticket-of-leave men together ? — Yes. 1 208. Would you attach much importance to something analogous to the French system of patronage, with which you are familiar, and by which certain persons undertake in certain districts to provide, so far as they can, for the labour and employment of discharged convicts ? — I think it would be a measure of the greatest possible importance m facilitating the disposal and dispersion of the men. I trust before the question of secondary punishments is finally disposed of in this country, to see some organized plan by which societies of patronage will be formed in different districts, and to which societies application can be made from the convict or other prisons ; it would be a most material assistance. I am, however, disposed to question the advantage of assembUng them in large numbers. 1 209. ^Vould there not be a very great jealousy on the part of the labouring classes of the community against any such interference r—1 should think not ; a labouring man would not object to a poor fellow receiving assistance in a benevolent way from anybody. Mr. Wright, of Manchester, has occupied himself with respect to the prisoners in .'^alford House of Correction for many years, and has provided for a great number. I have no doubt in that wav he has saved them from a continued career in crime, which probably would have ended in their transportation. 1210. With the large amount of what I may call clean labour in this country, do you not think it would be very difficult ever to be sure of having any lurge amount of employment to give to discharged criminals ? — The number who are discharged from the convict prisons are almost like a drop in the ocean as regai'ds the labour market, one or two to 10,000 inhabitants in a year. 1211. Mr. B. Denison.^ You said something about reformatories a short time ago, did you not ? — Yes. 1 2 12. Are you in favour of reformatory institutions ? — It is very gratifying to any one who refiects on the subject, to see the great movement which is making with respect to the establishment of reformatories; the question is, whether it is in the right direction. 1213. Have vou given us all the information which you can as to the compara- tive expense of the original transportation system, and of the course which would 0.42. P be 114 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE Co]one\ J. Jfbb. be adopted under the j)enal servitude system? — I have given a general rougli R. «., c. B. estimate of it, which, 1 think, will bear the test of examination. The year referred to is 1851, when the subject was nmch discussed; l)ut though the 5 Maj iBjG. expense of keeping the prisoners has increased a little since tliat time, I think that the proceeds from labour have also increased, and would tend probably to keep its estimate to about that amount. 1 2 1 4. Mr. .v. Fitziftrald.'] I see you have credited 17.3,050/. as earnings to be deducted ; %vill you be kind enough to explain u]H)n what principle you have calculated tliat amount? — I took the earnings in separate confinement at, I think, not more than 5/. or G/. a year : those on public works, at about 12/. or 15/. a year ; the earnings in Ireland at only 5 /. a year ; at Bermuda and Gibraltar, at 18/. a year ; and striking a general average on 17,000 prisoners, 1 a|)prehend that it would be about 12/. a year; but I am satisfied that is under the mark. 121.';. Do vou set against their earnings the amount of the materials worked up, or does that not appear ? — The account shown is the value of the labour bestowed upon tlie materials ; it is only, however, in separate contiuement that such employments are carried on ; a fair amount of workmansliip is put upon the materials. I2i6. Then 1 understand you to sav. that neither the materials nor the articles produced, at all for many part of your calculation : you look to the mere amount of manual labour ? — The mere amount of maimal labour. We sliould have to pay so much for a jacket, the material we purchase; and the difference between the cost of the raw material and the cost of a jacket, if obtained from a contractor, represents tlie amount of labour which is charged. 1217. Has your attention been called, at all, to the system pursued at Auburn and Sing Sing, in New York '? — No, 1 do not know much of those prisons. Jorois, 22° die Mali, 1856. MEMBERS PRESENT. Mr. Baines. Sir John Pakington. Lord Naus. Mr. Adderley. Mr. Serjeant O'Brien. Mr. Wiikham. Mr. John Wynne. Mr. Massey. Mr. Beckett Denison. Mr. Deedes. Mr. S'-ymour Fitzi^erald. Mr. Monckt.on Mdnes. Mr. Ker Seymer. The Right Hon. MATTHEW TALBOT BAINES, in the Chair. Colonel J. Jcbh, B. £., c. B. 22 May 185C. Colonel Joshua Jebb, r. e., c.b., called in; and further Examined. 1218. Chairman.^ I believe, since the Committee met last, some further observations have occurred to you which you are desirous of submitting to them with reference to the present inquiry ?— Yes ; it is an inquiry of so much import- ance to the Committee and to the country, tiiat I sliould wish to give the whole results of my own experience, as far as the Committee may consider them worth having. 1219. We should wish to have them. What is the first subject to which you would now call our attention? — Chiefly respecting the principle of transporta- tion and the place it has exactly occupied in the secondary punisiiments of this country for the last five or six years, and which at this moment it does occupy. It may be regarded as having been a very convenient and a very satis- factory opening for the disposal of the men after the completion of tiieir periods of penal servitude ; and in that light it may be looked upon to fulfil the same object which patronage does for juvenile offenders, or for any other persons coming SELECT COMMITTEE ON TRANSPORTATION. 115 coiuing- out of prison. There lias been this additional advantage from trans- Colonel J. J«/»6, portation during the time of its continuance to Van Diemen's Laud, when all rk, c. *. the convicts were sent there, that those whom it was a great object to get rid ot "- — were disposed of to tlie convenience of this country as well as their own advantage. ■** "> ' do- tage. This convenience and advantage, I look upon it, only continued so long as it was possible to alisorb the entire labour of the convicts at the expiration ot their sentences. It will l)c in the recollection of the Committee that when the plan which was so carefully devised by Lord Derby and Sir James Grahasn was acted upon, that plan failed entirely fi'om the colony noi being able to absorb the labour. The consequence was, a very great accumulation of convicts ; and they were not able to obtain employment, and a great demoralisation existed. 1220. 'Mr. AdderleT/.] Yon mean during the probation system? — Yes; that led to such serious evils that transportation was suspended. Then came the plan, which was very carefully devised by Lord Grey and Sir George Grey, tor meeting those evils. A period of, I think, between two and three years elapsed previous to the resumption of transportation. Sir William Dennison had been appointed governor there; he brought his experience as an officer ot engineers, and his great ability, to bear upon the question, and paved the way for the introductiim of this new system. But this new system, I sliould wish to point out, Avas in some respects ditlerent from the former one. The probation system of Lord Stanley and Sir James Graham was almost independent of this country ; it was cliiefly carried out in Van Diemen's Land. The substitute that was n)ade for this by Lord Grey and Sir George Grey was tliat of imprisonment in this country fur certain periods proportionate to the sentence, commencing in separate confinement, and followed l)y employment upon public works, the trans- portation being the reward of good conduct ; and it was looked upon in that light by the convicts. They obtained a proportionate remission of their sen- tences, and they looked forward to a reward of their exertions by being trans- ported. Transportation in this form became, certainly, compulsory emigration ; but as far as a deterring punishment went, I look upon it that it was altogether nugatory. There is a remarkable tact mentioned in a work by Monsieur B^renger, President k la Cour de Cassation in Paris, in which he states the pro- ceedings that took place at Brest, Toulon, and Rochefort when the abolition of the Bagnes was resolved upon by the President of the French, by a decree in March 1852. Instead of following out the view of the old Chamber of Peers, which was that the existing places of confinement should be suppressed, and that prisons on shore should be substituted for them, it was resolved by the govern- ment that Cayenne should be taken as a place of transportation for a certain category of offenders. But the men who were then at Brest, Toulon, and Rochefort were not under sentence of transportation at all ; they were under sentence of imprisonment (/rflfflj/a-ybrceA".) As the decree was not to have a retro- spective efTect, they were to have the choice of whether they would continue render their sentences or be sent to Cayenne. The terms of their transportation to that place were explained to the men, and in the first few hours after the registers were opened for their accepting this offer, or rejecting it, 3,000 men came forward to give in their adhesion, and to express their wish to go to Cayenne. 1 22 1-2. Out of how many ?— I believe they almost all went ; the greater part of them went. Monsieur B^renger concludes by saying that such was the prospect, that little or no difficulty occurred ; so little was transportation re- garded by the men in the way of repressive punishment. My object would be to place before the Committee the real position in which transportation has stood for some time, and which I think it still occupies, and is likely to occupy, owing to the difficulty of forming a penal settlement, and changing the general arrangements which have been in operation for so long a time. As a substitute for it, I should be inclined to recommend that the whole sentences of penal servitude should be carried out in this country, and at Bermuda and Gibraltar, annexing the condition of transportation with a ticket of leave to some particular period of tlie sentence, which would sufficiently gain for the country the removal of the man, placing him in a better position, and having the repressive effect of punishment emhued at home, which I think has its advantages over removing the punishment to a greater distance, and out of sight. The present sentences of penal servitude may be considered only to extend to a period of five years, because a sentence of six to eight years' penal servitude is deemed to be, under the Act, a full equivalent to a sentence of 15 years' transportation. The 0.42. p 2 punishment ii6 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE Co\oue\ J. Jfbb, punishment would be more defined, and llie anomaly, which 1 have before H. E., c. B. pointed out, of the heavier sentences being regarded as the lighter punishments, would be done away by annexing the condition of transportation to a longer 82 May 185G. period of penal servitude. I am not aware tliat any change in the law would be necessary, but the practice of its administration migiit be determined, so tiiat all judges, chairmen of quarter sessions, and others, might have a clear knowledge of it, and thus be enabled to keep the certainty of tl)e punishment before the j)ul)lic. It is frequently complained of, that tliere is an uncertainty in the punisliment ; that a sentence of transportation is passed, and that neither the judge himself who passes it, nor the prisoner who receives it, is exactlj" aware of the nature of the confinement tliat is before him ; it does not convey any clear idea, as there have been so many changes. The following scale., only slightly varied from the present practice, may serve as an illustration of the remarks which I liave made : assuming that sentences of seven and 10 years are already provided for by the four years' or five yeans' penal servitude, and commencing at the period of 15 years' transportation, wliicii is represented by six V) eight years' penal servitude in full, I should tliiiik that the following scale might work well. Instead of sentencing a man lo 15 years' transportation, he miglit be sentenced to five years' penal servitude and 10 ycms' transportation. But in working the discipline, as I have already stated to the Committee, it is of very great impor- tance to all interests concerned, that there should be sufficient inducement and encouragement to the men to create in them liabits of industry and good conduct. I uould say, that if a man were sentenced to five years' penal servitude, it sliould be on the understanding tliat, on good conduct, he could reduce that period to four. He then would have to serve under a ticket of leave in the colony for 10 years longer ; so that a well-c>)nducted prisoner would in reality exactly get 14 years' removal from this country, and a worse-conducted prisoner would get 13 years. It would be a more defined punishment to divide the sentence in that way. From the 14 years' sentence of transportation, which was the old sentence of transpor- tation, I would go to 17 years; it is a new period, but it is a more equal division between the 14 and the 20 ; and for 17 years I would recommend that a sentence of six years' penal servitude should be passed, reducible to five by good conduct, with 12 years in a [)enal colony. In lieu of a 20 years' sentence, I should recommend that seven years sliould be the maximum sentence of penal servitude in addition to transportation, reducible to 5 I, with the condition being annexed of being transported for 15 years. For life sentences, I should propose that the maximum sentence of penal servitude should t)e 10 years, reducible to eight by good conduct, but to be transported for the remainder of life. In com- mutation of sentences of penal servitude combined with transportation (such as would arise in the case of men who could not be sent abroad on the ground of health or other considerations), a longer period of penal servitude in place of removal to a colony would have to be determined. Commencing as before at the,15 years' sentences, which involve the period of five years' service, reducible by good conduct to four, I would submit thai in such cases the practical work- ing out of the discipline should be seven years' penal servitude, reducible to six. In cases of 17 years' transportation, there should be eight years' penal servitude, reducible to seven. In cases of 20 years' transportation, I would recommend 10 years' penal servitude, reducible to eight; and in life sentences, 12 years' penal servitude, reducible to 10. In all cases, however, of a life sentence (for they involve very serious crimes generally), they should be specially considered, as they are now, by the Secretary of State ; and sentences of death commuted into imprisonment or transportation for life, I think should be served by imprisonment for the whole period of life. Imprisonment or penal servitude for life, and in a corresponding degree, for longer periods than have ever been heard of in this country, though they might be admitted to be a more certain and more effective punishment than transportation, might probably create a feeling of sympathy for any one sub- jected to so apparently heavy a sentence. Such a feeling, however, would only prove that such sentences would have a more deterring effect than those of transportation. There would be no difficulty in carrying out such sentences ; they could not be carried out at JVIilbank or Newgate, or in any of the old prisons of the country ; but they could be carried out on the present com- bined system of the first portion of the sentence being in separate confine- ment, and the remainder on public works, either at Portland or at Dartmoor, or SELECT COMMITTEE ON TRANSPORTATIOX. 117 or some other place of that kind. I do not, therefore, think that the public Colonel J. Jebb, R. E., C. B. sympathy would be excited against it, and 1 caniiot but believe that that would be a more elective punishment than transportation. Transportation, as it has been carried on for many years, has also left this ^'^ ay ' 5 • country entirely dependent on the colony for carrying out the administration of the law. If we go back only as far as 1837 and 1838, there was Sir William Moleswortli's Committee, in wiiich it was condemned. In 1839, in consequence of the condemnation of the system by Sir William Moleswortli's Committee, Lord John Russell, who was then at the Home Department, had under consideration a plan for substituting long sentences of imprisonment at home for transportation. That plan was never matured, but Peutonville Prison was erected with a view of ascertaining how far it could be beneficially adopted, and with the double view of ascertainino^ also by experiment on a large scale how far separate con- finement was adapted for carrying out such a long sentt-nce. Tiien came the discontinuance ot transportation to New South Wales, followed l)y Lord Derby's and Sir James Graham's scheme of transportation to Van Dieraen's Land, which only continued for about four or five years. In 1848, Lord Grey and Sir George Grey formed a plan, which worked exceedingly well, until it was stopped by the colony in 1852; and we have now commenced upon the new plan of penal servitude combined ^ith transportation, which has reduced tlie number sentenced to transportation, about 3,000, to 300 ; I can give the numbers. The Act of 1853 has reduced the number annually sentenced to transportation in Great Britain from an average of about 3,200 in the five years previous to 1852 to an average of 315, or about one-tenth, during the years 1854 and 1855. The question may therefore be considered to be nar- rowed almost to a miuimuni. 1223. Chairman.^ Have vou anv observation to make with regard to the estimate of numbers, and the expense of carrying out penal servitude ; you gave some evidence to the Committee upon those subjects when you were last here ; have you revised your evidence, and is there any additional observa- tion which you now wish to bring before us upon those points? — Yes. The result of the calculations wliich I laid before the Committee, which I think perhaps it will be better to repeat as a contrast to what I shall now lay before them, was this. The gross cost of transportation and the convict prisons in Great Britain and Ireland in 1851, for 15,720 convicts, was 587,294^. The net cost after deducting the value of the labour, was estimated at 419,476 /. The cost of an assumed maximum of 17,250 prisoners and 1,200 females in Great Britain and Ireland, Bermuda, and Gibraltar, with a limited number in Western Aus- tralia, assuming transportation to be given up, was 370,750 I. Tiie net cost, after deducting the value of labour, was 195,700 I. The calculations referred to have proved in the main to have been correct, the chief inaccuracy having been, that the number of convicts accumulating on the hands of the Government has not been so great as was anticipated, and the value of the labour on public works has exceeded the estimate ; so that both those cal- culations are in favour of the Government. For the purpose of calculation, I will assume that an average number of 2,300 will be annually placed under such sen- tences as will require their being dealt with by the Government, of whom 2,000 may be males and 300 females. 1 do not think that that average is under the mark, because when I look back to the resolutions of the Committee of the House of Commons of 1850, there was a strong recommendation on their part that district prisons should be erected for all prisoners sentenced to periods above 12 months, and that a much more extensive use should be made of short sen- tences of one or two years before resorting to a term of transportation, or, as it would now apply, to four years' penal servitude. If we take, therefore, au average of four and a half years' imprisonment for the 2,000 males and 300 females, the accumulation would be 9,000 males and 1,350 females. As regards the distri- bution of the men, and the application of their labour, the following statement may be taken as a steady provision of work, which will not require alteration for many years, and where, generally speaking, there exists accommodation for carrying it out. Undergoing separate confinement, 1,900 ; at Portland, 1,500 ; at Chatham, 1,150; at Portsmouth, 1,050. Invalids in the " Stirling Castle," 400 ; and at Dartmoor, 700 ; at Parkhurst, 600 ; Gibraltar, 800 ; Bermuda, 600 (which is about one-half the number that will be employed there, the other half being reserved to be furnished from Ireland) ; Western Australia, 300 ; that alto- gether makes up the 9,000. The females would be disposed of at Milbank, 0.42. p 3 Brixton, ii8 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE Colonel 7. Jfii, Brixton, and Fiilham. The nuniher of convicts in Ireland on the 1st of Jaiui- R.E., c.B. jiry 1S50 was -2,500 imilcs and 619 f-males, in all 3,209 ; and there were sen- teiicod diirinsjj the year only 33 to transportation, and 485 to penal servitude. 22Mayi85G. 1224. Sir J. Pdkinglon^] Do tliose fifjurcs with rej^ard to Ireland represent evcrv person convicted before a court? — Sentenced, I presume, to transportation and penal servitude. 1225. Does that number of convicts refer only to persons sentenced eitlier to transjiortation or to penal servitude, or docs it embrace all the convicts in Ire- l;ii,j V — ^c, 1 understand it (1 take it from the Report of tlie Directors of Prisons in Ireland), it refers only to those under sentence of trau-;povtation and ])enal servitude. Tlie sentences in Ireland have fluctuated so mueii, that it is difficult to assume data wliich can l)e relied upon for the future ; but considering the greatly improved condition of the countiy, tlie far greater demand lor labour, and the increased wages tliat are now obtained, it may be inferred that the number is not likely henceforth to average more than about 450 males and 125 females. Assuming four years as the average confinement for them, the total accumulation, when tlie system is fully at work, may reach 1,800 males anil 300 females. For this number there exists ample accommodation in Ireland alone, without reckoning the 600 reserved places at Bermuda. 1226. Chairman.] I believe at our last meeting you gave an estimate of the expense of carrying out the system? — That was an estimate of the expense applicable to the numbers in 1852. 1227. Have you now tlie means of laying before the Committee an estimate of the expense of the numljers since 1852? — In compliance with the wish ex- pressed by the honourable Member for the West Riding, 1 have looked to the numixMS that we may have to deal with under the altered circumstances, and to the difl'erence of expense in several points; and the estimates which I am now going to lay before you are tiiose for 1856. 1228. Mr. Jdderley.'] Your answer to question No. 1138 is the answer to ■which your present statement refers? — Yes; Tlie estimated expense of carrying into etiect penal servitude at home, and at Gibraltar, Bermuda, and Western Australia, would be as follows: £. £. Great Uritain 7,300 males, at 23 each - - 167,900 Ditto 1,350 females, at 20 „ - 27,000 Ireland 1,200 males, at 20 „ - 24,000 Ditto 500 females, at 18 „ - 9,000 Bermuda 1,200 males, at 35 „ - 42,000 Gibraltar 800 ,. at 32 „ - 25,600 Western Australia 300 „ at 40 - 12,000 £. 307,500 Cost of transport Gross cost - ; : - 13,000 - £. 320,500 Deduct value of labour Net cost . - - - 165,500 - £. 155,000 1^20. Lord Naas.'] Are the cost of building and the purchase of land included in that?— No, all the establishments are complete; we have got sutii- cient accommodation to carrv out the whole. . . . ^ 1 230. Does this sum merely refer to maintenance and supervision .•'—it refers to maintenance and supervision alone. 1231. Mr. Adderley.] You are comparing the annual expense u\ the two -systems '—I am oiving'the annual expense of a system in full operation. 1030 Lord Naas.'] Are the annual repairs of the buildings included in that estiuiate?— No, merely the maintenance and supervision; what are usually introduced into the estimates before Parliament. c ■ 1 1233. Mr. Deedes.] Would there be much to add in the way ot repair?— No, very trifling. i • 1 i 1 1004: Lord Naas.] Can you show the amount ot money which has been spent upon the purchase of land and imildings since 1852 ?-I think 200,000/. was the estimated amount that would be required to obtain sufficient accommo- dation for carrying out the imprisonment in 1852 ; but the whole of that has not been asked for yet. 123'). Js Ireland included in that? — No. 1236, Chairman.] SELECT COMMITTEE ON TRANSPORTATION. 119 1 236. Chairman.^ When you were here the ether day, you expressed an Colonel J. JM, opinion that sentences of lontj terms of imprisonment niiiiht be had recourse to "•^•j '^•*- much more frequently than they are now, witii advantage? — Yes. \\ jTc 1237. Is there any authority upon th.at subject to wliich you are desirous of -* ay 1 5 • referring the Committee ? — The only reference which I would wish to make would be to the Resolutions of the Committee of 1830. 1 23 (S. Have you the Resolutions themselves wiih you r — I have the one which bears upon the point. 1239. Will you read it? — Tiie 17th Resolution was, "That if this plan" (referring to the erection of district prisons) " were adopted, an alteration of the law might, in the opinion of this Committee, be usefully made, in order to substitute, in many cases, for short terms of transportation, longer terms of impri- sonment than are now sanctioned by law." No practical steps were taken by the Government at the time for carrying this Resolution into efl'ect ; but it clearly uas contemplated at the time ; and I think it would go far to relieve the Govern- ment from many of the convicted criminals who now come upon their hands. 1240. Is there any other point upon which you wish to add to the evidence given by yon on the former occasion? — No, 1241. ^\Y J. PakingtonJ] It has been stated to this Committee that badges are given for satisfactory conduct for six months in separate confinement ? — Yes. ] 242. And also that when prisoners are removed to public works they are placed in a first, second, or third class, according to their conduct when in sepa- rate confinement ? — Yes. 1243. ^* not there considerable |)ractical difficulty in forming an accurate estimate of what the conduct of a prisoner in separate confinement really is ? — It is a negative evidence; it is the absence of reports generally. 1 244. Are not tlie circumstances of separate confinement such as to afford very little latitude for good or bad conduct? — Certainly. 1245. Is it not quite possible that the estimate formed of a prisoner's good conduct, when in separate confinement, may, from those circumstances, be a very fallacious estimate? — I do not think, generally speaking, that it is fallacious; so many officers, the governor, the chaplain, the warders, and the trades' instructors are in constant communication with tlie men, so that they form, as a whole, a very fair opinion ot the men. 1246. With regard to the conduct of prisoners on public works, I suppose there is much greater facility? — Much <>reater, because they have diff^erent temp- tations before them, and it is by seeing how they conduct themselves under these different temptations to bad conduct or irregularity, that a judgment may be formed of the strength of their resolutions, or their forbearance. 1247. What temptations do you refer to? — The temptations ot communicating improperly with their fellow prisoners, or of violent conduct of various kimls, combinations among prisoners, and irregularities which, when a man is within four M'alls of a ceil, he has no Ojiportunity or inducement to commit. 1 248. Do you think that the circumstances of public wurks are such that those who have the superintendence of prisoners are really enabled to form an accurate estimate of what their conduct is? — I think they have a very good opportunity of doing so; much better than they have in separate confinement. 1249. ^^ several of your answer's, in your examination in chief, you referred to the very important experiment of tickets of leave in England, and I under- stood you to slate distinctly that, notwithstanding all that has been said and written out of doors, you think, on the whole, that that experiment has been a successful one ? — I really think so. 12.30. So far successiul, that it is your desire to see it rather extended tiian contracted ? — Pardon me ; I think that that point, of continuing to give tickets of leave, is open to a question ; there are many advantages connected with it in exercising a certain re[)ressive eflfect, perha[)S, upon the individuals ; but it marks them as a class, and it is that mark as a class which has interfered with the prosjiects of many in obtaining emplovment. I think, therefore, that the balance of my judgment would be, that it would be better to set a man perfectly free, and trust to the chance of capturing him again if he committed himself, than to release him, at whatever period, either medically or (m other grounds, with a ticket-of-leave. In a penal colony it would be quite different, but here we can- not maintain the superintendence of the police over them without effectually preventing their obtaining employment. 0.42. p 4 1251. How lio MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE Colonel J. Jtbb, 1 2,5 1 . How is it that tlie men released under tickets of leave become a marked Rt., c.B. class? — '1 hey are marked by the public; they have to go to Tiiagistrates and • ^. otiiers to got certiticatts signed, and they are marked by having to obtain 22 May 185O. ^]|^, jjj.jjg |3aiai,(.eg of t|,eir gratuities, whicli they apply for at the post-office; a mail wiio has settled in a country town has to go to the post-office and say, " 1 am ;i ticket-oi-leave man ; I have come for my l)alance. " He is known as a tickct-of-leave man ; it has become a term of reproach. 1253. Of course it would be a term of reproach where it was known ; but is it not possible for a ticket-of-leave man, say A. or B., discharged from Portland on a ticket-of-leave, to go to a town with whicli he may be connected or may not be connected, to anv town to which he chooses to betake himself, and there get into employment, Avithout its being of necessity known that he is a ticket-of- leave man ? — Scarcely ; because, in the first instance, before he is released from Portland or any other prison, a reference is made to anybody in tlie town who he says will employ liim ; that is one means of publicity on hiscouuni; back ; another is, that that ofler of employment on the part of any one whom he refers to has to be certified to us by either a magistrate or a clergyman. Then he has to apply for the balance of his gratuity when he really is released. So that there are two or three points which it would be very difficult to conceal. 1-253. Would it not be quite practicable to arrange a system under which men might be discharged with tickets of leave, but under which it should be known only to the police of the district, or possibly to the magistrates of tiie district, that they were ticket-of-leave men ? — I think that would be a great object if the ticket-of-leave s}steni were continued as a principle, and that it would be desirable to effect something of the sort. It might, no doubt, be practicable, by communicating confidentially with the police authorities, who might see parties who were inclined to employ those people coufulentially, and who might receive and pay the money that was due to them. 1254. Am I to understand you to say, that although you consider the experi- ment to have been thus far successful, you are not in favour of extending it; does your answer amoiint to that? — 1 consider the experiment to have been succcessful, by the good conduct of the men and the vast proportion of them who have entered on an honest course of life. I think this will be quite apparent to tile Committee, if reference is made to the large amount of correspondence which there is, and also if the circumstances which have been brought before the public in the number who have been recommitted be fairly considered. 125,5. J fi"tl, in Question 1089, you were asked, " Is there any modification of the new system which you would suggest as the result of your experience?" The substance of your answer was, that you should desire to see sentences of four years' penal servitude extended to five, in order that there miglit be a margin of 12 months, within which remission of sentence might take place and tickets of leave be granted. I do not quite see how I am to reconcile that answer with the answer which you have just given to me? — I do not see that I referred to tickets of leave in my former answer. I recommended, as I have done from the fir.-l, the remission of a portion ot the purushmcut as the best means of encou- raging a man during the period of his confinement; but it was irrespective of tliat amount of remission being either on a ticket of leave or a free pardon ; that question was not before me. The question of the value of a ticket of leave is now distinctly beibre me ; and I have stated, that though I should at first have formed a more favourable opinion of continuing the system of tickets of leave than I have now, my present opinion is, that it would be better to forego that restriction. 1256. Then I am to understand that what you contemplated in your answer to Question 1089 was, that there should be a margin of 12 months, during which the mercy of the Crown should be exercised.^ — Exactly. 1257. And in the event of good conduct, that the prisoner should be abso- lutely discharged?— The question was not before me particularly as to whether he should be discharged absolutely, or witli a ticket of leave ; but I am inclined ti) think that it VFould be better to discharge him absolutely, in the same way that men under sentence of seven years' transportation were dealt with. 1258. I understand your opinion to be, that althougli you consider the ticket- of-leave system to have been successful, inasmuch as only 8 per cent, have been known again to come within tiie grasp of the law, still you would prefer that hereafter SELECT COMMITTEE ON TRANSPOUTATION. 121 hereafter all convicts serving their sentence in this country should rather be Colonel J. Jell, discharged at the end of a certain time absolutely, than be discharged with the r. e., c.b. check which a ticket of leave would establisli ? — That is my opiuiun. 1259. I" your answer to Question 1104, and in some few other answers, you ^^ ^^y '^•'^^• expressed a desire that there should be greater faciUty for men under tickets of leave to exercise a discretion whether they would go to the colonies or remain in England ? — Yes. 1 260. As the Jaw now stands, assuming that a man has money, which you say in many cases they have, what is there at this moment to prevent a man going to the colonies. In one answer you used the expression that it was "not safe." Why is it "not safe" for a man to go to the colonies? — Because the licence would not protect him. The Act, as it now stands, only sanctions the issue of a licence to be in Great Britain or the Channel Islands. 1261. That I understand; but in the event of a man availing himself of the means which he obtaiuetl to go abi'oad, why should it follow that when he arrived in the colony anything would be known about his previous life.'' — He would run the chance of it ; it is a great chance, but it is a chance ; any one who knew him to be a convict might apprehend the man, I suppose, in the colony; and that is one difficulty which exists with respect to tickets of leave, that the Government could not very well interfere in any way to assist a man in emigrating to a colony. 1262. You mean that in the case in which a man was in possession of a ticket of leave, the Government could not aid him in going to a colony ? — They could not possibly do so. 1263. In the event of any system being adopted, under which men with tickets of leave were to be aided by the Government in going abroad, do ycu think there would be any danger of a l)ad moral effect? — No, I think Mhere a man has gone through the wliole of his punishment, the aid of the Governmeut or the aid of benevolent individuals would come in as a most necessary and advanta- geous adjunct to the prison discipline. 1264. I wish to ask you some questions with regard to the periods of penal servitude, which the Act has substituted for the corresponding periods ot trans- portation. In Question 1110, you were asked by the chairman whether there was any other alteration of the existing law which you would suggest, and your answer was, that you had no change to suggest in the Act of 1853, Aviiich sub- stituted penal servitude for transportation ; I collect from tliat answer that you think that the periods substituted are satisfactory ; is that yonr opinion r — Yes ; excepting as regards working a combined system, where I pointed out that this anomaly existed, that as you could not carry out the full sentence of six to eight years' penal servitude, which represents 15 years' transportation, and then trans- port a man, it would be necessary to carry out a less term of penal servitude, and therefore that a man who was under penal servitude for only five years for a less offence, would feel himself to be more severely dealt with than a man Avho was under sentence of 15 years' transportation. 1265. Have you not yourself, in the answer to which I have previously re- ferred, in stating your wish that five years should be substituted for four, sug- gested, at all events, one respect in which you think it desirable to change the law ? — 1 do not think the law requires change ; it would be the practice of its administration. 1 266. Surely the law would require to be changed, because if you wish a convict to pass a sentence of five years instead of four, under the existing Act of Parliament it cannot be done; would not it require a cliango of the law ■ — It might retjuire it ; it is a subsequent consideration of the subject which has leii me to think that that would be a possible way of avoiding the anomaly which I have pointed out. latij. I was rather surprised to see in one of your answers a distinct state- ment that you thought no change of the law Avas necessary ; does not the very chanjic which you have suggested require a change of the law ; in your answer No. 1089, you distinctly stated that five years oui;ht, in your mind, to be sub- stituted for four; with the view which you there specified ? — Yes. I2t38. Four years is the maximum period substituted for seven years ? — Yes. i-'^ig. Tiierefore, if you want to have five years instead of four, surely you can only arrive at it by a change of the law ? — 1 was under the impression that it would be in the discretion of the judge to pass a sentence of five years instead of four. 0.42. Q 1270. Are 122 MINUTES OF EVIDENXE TAKEN BEFORE THE ColonelJ. Jebb, 1270. Are YOU satisfied in your own judgment tliat a sentence of four years* E. £., C.B., penal servitude is citiier in truth or in its deterring effect, as regards its effect ~ upon society, a full and fair equivalent for a sentence oi' seven years' tran^^por- "^ ^ ■ tation ? — 1 think so. It was the practice for many years to release every man in tliis country ulio was sentenceii to seven years' transportation, in 3-i years, if lie conducted himself well in the hulks. 1271. In the first place, that was only in the event of good conduct; but even in the event of good conduct, there was only a diti'erence of six months between that part of a sentence of seven years" transportation and the whole of the corresponding sentence of penal servitude? — Yes. 1272. Therefore, excepting six montlis, the whole balance of the seven years is in that ease remitted, is it not? — The whole !)alance of the seven years' trans- portation is remitted. A sentence of transportation is not necessarily a sentence of imprisonment. And as a further illustration of it, I mav say that in the system which worked so well in Van Diemcn's Land up to the period of its discontinuance, a seven-years' man was embarked from this countrj' after two years' imprisonment, and received his ticket of leave when he landed, perhaps in about two years and a half. 1273. ^^^ although the remainder of the seven years was. as you truly say, not a period of imprisonment, it was a period of comparative punishment, and it was a period of ctmiplete severance i'rom all the ties of home and kindred? — It was; but if you look at it in another point of view, a man during his stay in Van Diemen's Land, if he were a Avell-conducted convict, was in every respect as well oft, or perhaps better oif than a iree emigrant, because in addition to having learnt a trade and become habituated to hard work, and subject to dis- cipline, he had a claim upon the Government either for employment or for maintenance, therefore he was so far in a better [)05ition than a free emi- grant. 1274. Taking the case which you have put, of, in the one case, 3 I years in separate confinement and public works, and then the balance in exile, and, in the other case, four years' penal servitude, does not it come to this, that the sentence of penal servitude is very near being the sentence of transportation, the transportation omitted? — I have just mentioned that a seven-years' well-con- ducted man embarked I'rom this country at the end of two years, not 3 i. 1275. You said 3i in the case of good conduct? — No. that was from the hulks ; that was when he was released in this country. When transportation Avas combined with it he went away from this country, if he were well conducted (and I am sure that nine-tenths of them obtained that indulgence), in two years. 1276. You of course subscribe to the general feeling, that all sentences of punishment are rather looked to as the means of deterring from crime than as anything vindictive towards the individuals concerned ? — Certainly. 1277. In the event of any ordinary conviction for sheep stealing, or any of those common crimes in a rural neighbourliood, which do you suppose would exercise the most deterring effect in the neighbourhood : if the friends and relations of a prisoner came home and announced that their relation had been sentenced to Portland, we will sav for four years, at the end of that time to return to his friends and to his habits of lite, or that that man had been sentenced to a period of seven years' transportation? — It depends very much upon the connexions that a man iias. If he has a wife and family, and friends around him, I have no doubt that a sentence of seven years' transportation would exer- cise a niore deterring effect upon those particular people than a sentence of four years' imprisonment, because they would then look to his earl}^ return among them : but for the majority of the men who have very slender ties in this country, I think that the prospect of two years' imprisonment in this country, combined with transportation to any one of the colonies afterwards, would not exercise so deterring an effect, either upon the man himself or upon Ids associates, as the longer period of imprisonment; and I form that opinion upon the extended experience which has been gained in all the convict prisons, where we have seen that the great boon looked forward to by all these men was the period of em- barkation ; they looked forward to it as the greatest boon. I never heard of the reluctance of a man to embark. 127S. Upon that, in the first place, I would ask you whether y^ou observed that in an equal degree before the last few years, during which tlie gold dis- coveries SELECT COMMITTEE ON TRANSPORTATION. 123 coveries have altered the whole complexion of Australian transportation ? — Yes ; Colonel /. Jebb, I think so. Portland was open several years before the ^old discoveries could r.e, c.b. Lave ojjerated miiclj upon tlie public mind. 1 271). Secondly, I would ask you, both with regard to that and with regard to -^ ^^^y ^^5®* wijat you before said about the willingness of Freufli convicts to go to Cayenne, whether you think in both cases that fueling-, to which you refer, did not arise from a feeling of comparison ; that, although going abroad under such circum- stances was a severe measure of punishment, still it was better, lighter, and more endurable than the hard labour endured at home? — That was the view which, no doubt, the convicts took of it, and I look upon it that, as a deterring punish- ment, whatever a convict feels, is what will eventually have the greatest influence out of doors, because it is by his representations, either of his success in life or of ■what he suifers, that others must be guided. 1280. That does not quite meet my inquiry, whether you think the willing- ness arose from the sense that it was by comparison a lighter punishment, or whether you think it arose from the much stronger feeling that it was in itself a positive boon ? — I can hardly answer that question. 12S1. Can you tell me what proportion of transported convicts, for whatever period they might be transported, or taking the different periods for which they have been transported, have ever in fact returned to this country ? — A very- small portion indeed ; and 1 have always looked upon it as rather a blot in the penal administration of this country, that a man sliould receive a sentence of. say, seven years' transportation, that he should be landed at the antipodes, and Lave no n;eans whatever given to him of returning to his native country. 1 282. Was it so ? — Yes. 1283. In the event of a seven-years' convict desiring, at the end of seven years, to return to England, was no means afforded him by the Government of doino- so ? — I never heard of a man being assisted in any way whatever. 1284. Your answer includes, if I understand you rightly, all the periods of transportation, seven years as well as otliers ? — Yes. 1285. Do yon suppose that that fact, of a very small proportion even of the shortest transports returning to England, did not become known ? — I think it is very probable that it did become known, but it became known in connexion Mith the men having settled themselves very comfortably in the colonies. 1286. Can you teli me in what proportion it would become known in con- nexion with such information as you have now mentioned? — I think that, gene- rally speaking, the whole of the accounts which we received from Van Diemen's Land were such as would lead to the belief that the majority of the men were doing very well for themselves, and that, therefore, they had no desire to come home ; that is the general impression which I have gained, without being able to go into particulars upon the point. 1287. Is it known what proportion of convicts died in the colony previous to the termination of their sentence ? — I do not recollect exactly how those statis- tics are, but the general impression I have is, that the men were very healthy out there. 1288. Is it your opinion, that the fact being known that a very small pro- portion of convicts ever return to this country, it would be considered as an addi- tional element of punishment? — I should think it would probably l)e connected with it. If it were understood that they wished to return, but could not, I think then a sentence of seven years would appear as if it were a sentence for life, if a man were landed and could not get away. 1 289. Looking to the great object of determent, do not you think that t!ie fact being notorious that very few men who once go abroad ever return, would have a very deterring effect both with men who were disposed to crime and with their kindred ?— I think, as I have staled before, that it would depend very much upon the communications a man made, if he said that he was doinj: so well that he did not wish to return home, 1 think it would rather have a tendency to encourage others ; it at least would not have a deterring effect. 1290. You do not think that the fact of a sentence of seven years, involving severance from kindred and home for that period, would of itself make it a severer sentence than a mere severance for four years within the country ? — I do not think it would. 1291. You stated on a former day that you thought six years of penal ser- vitude a full equivalent for 14 years' transportation ? — I think it is. 0.42. Q 2 1292. You 124 ]MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE Co\ouc\ J. Jebb, \2()2. You liavo stated this morning tliat you wish to fill up what, I think, R.E., C.B. you describe as a void, hetween the present sentence of six years' penal servitude and the sentence of penal servitude for lif(! ; do you not think that the present 12 May 185C. gj^,.,](, jj, y,.j.y defective in that respect; that there is no period of penal servitude under the Act between 10 years and life? — I think that the sentences which I liave ventured to lay before the Committee would be an improvement; that is to say, a certain proportion of every sentence being- passed in penal servitude, combined with transportation afterwards. 12()3. You are not satisfied with the state of the law whicli contemplates no sentence of penal servitude between 10 years and life; is it that deficiency in the Act which you wish to supply by the scale which you have suggested? — I am not sure that it "ould require additional jiowers in the Act. I think tiie Secre- tary of State would have the power of commuting- the sentence of transportation for 20 years, or whatever it might be, info some corresponding period of penal servitude. 1294. Then would you contemplate filh'ng up that vacuum, as I may call it, between 10 years' jienal servitude, and penal servitude for life by transportation? Yes, combined with penal servitude. 1295. When you suggested this morning a new scale above 10 vears, that for 14 years' transportation there should be five years' penal servitude, and 10 years' transportation, did you intend that l)y way of a substitute for the present six or eight years' penal servitude? — No, it was more in the mode of adminis- tering the sentence. Whether it would require a fresh Act, or an alteration in the present Act, to allow the judge to express the thing, I cannot sav. I hardlv think it w'ould. I think it would he quite within tl»e power of the Secretary of State to make a regulation that every man under a sentence of 14 years' trans- portation, or any other period of transportation, should serve a portion of it in penal servitude, and the remainder in transportation. It is the portion of penal servitude which shall be served in connexion with transportation that I am desir- ous of providing for. 1296. The present law says, that instead of a sentence up to 15 years' trans- portation, a sentence shall be passed of six or eight years' penal servitude ? — Yes. 1207. You have recommended this morning that instead of that sentence there shall be a sentence passed of five years' penal servitude, and beyond that 10 years' transportation ; surely the sentence which you have this morning sug- gested of five years' penal servitude, followed bv 10 years' transportation, is a very much severer sentence than the sentence which the Act of Parliament eon- templates, is it not? — Yes, I should think ii is. 1298. Do you mean that the two sentences shall be concurrently acted upon, or in what way would you propose to deal with this existing Act of Parliament, which awards a ma.xinium of eight years' penal servitude as a substitute for 15 years' transportation? —What I propose refers only to the mode in which the sentence of transportation should be passed; I propose tliat the mode of admi- nistering it should be as it is at present, namely, a certain period of penal servitude, with the remainder served in transportation. 1299. Tben I collect your meaning to be this, that the judge should in all cases retain the option which he now has of sentencing either to penal servitude or to transportation ? — Yes. 1300. But in the event of transportation being preferred, that sentence should be carried out partlj- in penal servitude ? — As it is at present, 1301. You said upon vour former examination, in answer to Questions 1130 to 1133, that you wished to see a greater gradation of punisliment as betaeen the present periods of imprisonment and the present periods of penal servitude : — Yes. 1302. "When you gave those answers (and you have adverted to the same subject this morning), what description of imprisonment did you contemplate? — Inipriionnient, commencing in separate confinement in a county prison, for a certain period, and combined with hard labour, and a certain gradation of punishment in the prison ; there has been so much experience gained now of the advantage of affording the means of encouragement to good conduct, tliat any gradation in the punishment in ordinary prisons on the same principle [)reei:ely as has been curried out in the military prisons and in the convict prisons, would, I thiidv, he of advantage in its results, as striking at the great proportion of recommittals which exist in almost all the counties iu England. 1303. Tlie SELECT COMMITTEE ON TRANSPORTATION. 125 1303. The present minimum of penal servitude is four years ? — Yes. Colonel /. Jebb^ 1 304. To what extent would you increase the present period? of imprisonment ? «. e.. c. b. • — I would resort to more sentences of 12 months, 18 months, and two years. ' 1305. Would you go as far as three years ? — No, I think not. ^' ' ''^ ^^ • 1300. Why should you leave the interval so long as from two years to four ? — I think tlie county prisons would not have the means of carrying out such long sentences. 1307. Do you mean that up to two years you would confine prisoners in county prisons, subject to the system of those prisons, whatever it may be? — Not in separate confinement for the whole period. 1 should recommend the adoption of the same plan which has been followed in the convict prisons; that is to say, commencing the period of two years, with perhaps si.x or nine months' strict separate confinement, followed by a greater degree of association, with some few increased privileges, and going on by gradations until the end of the term. 1308. But a very considerable portion of the county prisons are now upon the separate system, are they not ? — They have the means of carrying out the separate system, but those prisons will allow of any amount of provision in favour of association that might be deemed desirable. 1309. What objection do you see to carrying out the same principle which you have recommended in this way, namely, by shortening the present period which the law allows for penal servitude, and allowing courts to sentence prisoners to penal servitude for three or even ibr two years, if they saw fit : — If the discretion of the judge and the chairman of quarter sessions is fettered as regards the par- ticular crimes for which they could pass a sentence of two years' imprisonment, instead of one of four years' penal servitude, I think the law would require alter- ation to facilitate that ; but you, of course, are a much better judge tlian 1 can be of the amount of discretion which can be exercised by a chairman of quarter sessions. 1310. In the event of a case (and of course you must be aware that there are numbers of such cases) coming before a court, in which a period of penal deten- tion of two or three years is considered to be the fit sentence, would it not be far better that that penal detention of two or three years should be carried out upon our public works than carried out under any system now in existence in any of our county gaols? — I think that the recommendation of the Committee of 1850 would more nearly answer that purpose than the public woi'ks ; I think that mixing short-term prisoners with long-term prisoners would have a bad effect upon the discipline ; I should much prefer prisons expressly appropriated, as recommended bv the Committee of 1850, for all sentences, say above 12 months up to two years, and that then, commencing with the penal-servitude sentences, they should come to the Government prisons, as they do at present. 1311. In that case, would you not recommend reducing the present minimum period of penal servitude so as to contemplate sentences of three years ? — I have just said, that if the discretion of the judge is fettered in those points, it would require an alteration in the law. 1312. On the other hand, do you think it would be advantageous to give courts the power of lengthening the present period of penal servitude, so as to sentence to penal servitude for a very much longer period for some offences tlian can now be done; say 15 years? — I am not quite prepared to give an opinion u])on that point, because I have not distinctly in my recollection the classes of offences. 1313. Looking to the nature of tiie system upon our public works, do you see an\thing in that system to make it dangerous or objectionable to confine men who have committed grave offences upon those public works for a long period of years, or for life? — I see no difficulty at all in it. 1314. It has been stated to this Committee that as imprisonment proceeds, the latter years become so much more irksome than at first, that it is hardly possible to cany out extended periods ; I understand from your last answer that you do not concur in that opinion ? — I do not concur in that opinion, but it depends up i- • y„y change in the Act." I wish to have some explanation of that answer. Am I to understand you to mean by that answer, tliat you would have the judge pass a sentence of penal servitude without reference to the question whether the man is to be transported, or whether he is to be kept in England? — Many judges have passed sentences of longer periods than six years' poiuil servitude; auG those sentences, having been passed at a time when it was optional with them to pass a sentence of transportation, show that they considered that penal servitude was the better sentence of the two. The large proportion of men who have been sentenced to penal servitude instead of transportation, I think, bears upon that point. 1316. Is it not most desirable that the sentence passed, whatever it be, should he clear and intelligible V — Ves. 1317. Therefore is it not most desirable that if transportation is intended, transportation should be pronounced r — Yes. 131S. And the tame with penal servitude ? — Certainly. 1319. In answer to Question 1124, you stated an opinion that it was tlie inten- tion of Parliament in passing this Act, that the periods of penal servitude should be carried out ? — Yes. 1320. Do you think that opinion is quite consistent with the language of the ninth clause, allowing the system of tickets of leave? — The tickets of leave were mainly to provide for the commutation of the sentences of the largi* number that were then on the hands of the Ciovernment. 1321. Under sentence of transportation, you mean ? — Under sentence of trans- portation. It is not limited to them, but it was I think so intended. The fact of a licence being applicable in regard to sentences of penal servitude passed since that Act, always encouraged my hope that a certain remission of the period might be granted ; but I believe, as far as I can recollect the discussion at the time, that it was the intention of those who framed the Bill and of Par- liament (and probably the speeches which took place in the House of Commons and the House of Lords on the occasion would bear me out), tiiat the penal servitude for four years should be fully carried out; that term being reckoned a fair commutation of the sentence of seven years' transportation. 13.22. Your answer seems to refer rather to the intention of the Executive Government than to the intention of Parliament. The intention of Parliament can only be derived from the language used in tlie Act of Parliament, and you are aware that the language of the Act of Parliament is by no means restricted in the way which your answer seems to contemplate? — The Act does not restrict it; hut I think tliat the intention was, so far as my oun opinion goes, that the sentences of penal servitude were to be considered a fair commutation of the former periods of transportation. 1323. So far as the language of the Act goes, there is no reason whatever why the system of tickets of leave should not be applied to penal servitude as to transportation ? — It is entirely open to that. 1324. Has any rule been laid down by the Secretary of State, restricting the Act of Parliament, in the way I now advert to ; namely, by prescribing that tickets of leave should be granted to persons under sentence of transportation, but not to persons under sentence of penal servitude ? — The Secretary of State has issued a rule by which convicts are made aware that sentences of penal servi- tude have been substituted in some cases ibr sentences of transportation, and that those sentences, being of much shorter duraticm than the sentences of transporta- tion, are to be taken in place of them, and that the convict shall not, therefore, as a general rule, look forward to a remission ; but the Secretary of State has also said that he will be prepared to take into consideration any special cases which may be brought before him. 1325. What is the date of that rule? — That rule was issued in November 1855. 1326. Chairman.'] Was the date at which the notice referred to in Question 980 was issued, the month of November 1855? — Yes, it was ; and in the interval between the passing of the Act of 1853 and the issue of that notice, the men were in a state of uncertaintv as to what would happen to them. 1327. Sir SELECT COMMITTEE ON TRANSPORTATION. 127 1327. S'lT J. PakinfftoJi.] Can you tell this Committee whether, during that Colonel J. 7iri6, period (namely, from the passing of the Act in 1853 to November 1855) any r. e., c.b. intention had been announced by the Secretary of State upon tliat subject? J\^o. -2 M^y 1856. 1328. Did you yourself know, from the passing- of the Act in 1853 till No- vember 1855, whctiier tlie ticket-of-leave system was to be extended to penal- servitude convicts or not ? — I was not aware ; I was in hopes it might, in con- sequence of its being left open in the Act, and knowing the extreme importance of placing before prisone:s that strong indMCcmcnt; but I was not fidiy aware whether it would be done. It was under consideration for a long time. 1329. It was left open, in fact, for two years ? — Itwas left open for nearly two years. 1 330. I wish to ask you some questions with regard to the system under which we send convicts to Gibraltar and Bermuda. I think you slated the number of convicts wiiich those two places receive? — Yes. 1331. Is that demand likelyto be in both cases a permanent demand? — I should think so. 1332. Who selects the convicts that are to be sent to (iibraltar or to Bermuda? — Captain Whitty generally selects them from among the long-sentenced men who may be at Portland, Portsmouth, Woolwich, or Dartmoor. 1333. Is it dune under your guidance and control? — Tl.e lists are submitted to me by Captain Whitty ; we look them through together, and I then send them into the Home Oiiicc viith all the papers connected with each case. 1334. Then, in fact, you, as the head of tlie department, are responsible for the selection ? — Yes. ]33j. Upon what principle is the selection made? — We select healthy convicts, capable of doing the work which is required ot" them, and who have the longest terms to serve, in order to avoid the expense of bringing them liome again. Gibraltar and Bermuda may be looked upon precisely in the same light as Port- land and Portsmouth ; they are public works under the Governmerit, to which convicts are sent. 1336. Is the cost of sending the men out there and bringing them back the only reason why you select the longer-sentenced men for going out there? — Tiiat is the ouly reason. 1337. What is your opinion of tlic comparative severity -of the system in those islands, as compared with Dartmoor or Portland? — I do not think the men generally dislike it. 1338. What is your opinion of the comparative severity of the two systems? — The system of discipline is not so strict, I think, either at Bermuda or at Gibraltar, as it is at Portland. Measures are now in progress for assimilating the discipline or those two establishments closely to that of the establishments at home. Whether it is from the general knowledge which convicts have that it is a nice climate, and tliat they have little indulgencies or have had little indul- gencies there which they do not obtain at home, I do not know ; but it certainly is the fact that they do not, as a general rule, feel it to be more severe going there than remaining where they are. 1339. Do you think they prefer being selected to go there r — I do not know that they would prefer it exactly. 1340. I spprehend that there is no good reason why the system of discipline should be less severe there than it is at home r — No, excepting as regards climate ; they may perhaps not be recpiired to work so many hours. It is a most important point to bring the discipline of those places to the same system. 1341. Are vou able to carry out in Bermuda and Gibraltar that gradation of classes which you effect in England? — The same is going to be introduced into the discipline Tit is partially so already as regards the system of wearing badges denoting the diH'crent classes, and the little privilege's which they obtain in consequence. 1342. One of those little privileges is receiving visits from friends; that would not be quite so easy, I apprehend ? — There is a compcnsatitin for tiiat ; it must in some degree vary in consequence of the circumstances of the colonies ; but thev have had several little privileges which compensate for that. 1343. Have you ever considered whether it might be practicable, or if prac- ticable, whether it might be desirable, to make the system in Bermuda and 0.42. Q 4 Gibraltar i:!8 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE Colonel J. Jebb, Gibraltar a more severe system tlian in England, so as to effect a gradation in R.E., c.B. our system by that means ? — I Iiave considered it, and I tliink that partly with " a view ot" saving the expense of the transport backwards and forwards, and also •12 May 1856. from the consideration that possibl}' it might have a more deterring aspect out of doors, it might be desirable to send the men under the longest sentences, and convicted of tlie heaviest crimes, to undergo their punishment in Gibraltar or Bermuda. 1344. Do you think that any uood effect miglit be i)roduced by devising means for rendering die work at those places decidedly more penal and severe than at home, and for enabling courts to make it a ))art of their sentence that penal servitude should be carried out, not at home, but in those settlements ? — I think it might; I think it might strike the public mind with a degree of awe which it does not possess under the imprisonment at home. 134,5. I infer from the general tenor of your evidence (I forget whether you have exactly expressed the opinion), that your opiuion is uufavoural)le to any resumption of transportation as a general system r — 1 am quite unfavourable to it as a part of the punishment ; I look upon it as a means of disposing of con- victs chiefly, and that is the light, certainly, in which it has been regarded for some years past. 1346. But in the very events which you have contemplated this morning, reganiiug the longer periods of sentence, namely, awarding five, six, and eight vears of penal servitude, and then the going to a colony for the remaining [)or- tion, covering a great number of years, does not the balance which remains iu the shape of transportation become an element, and a very important element, in the punishment of the prisoner ? — To some extent it may be so ; but I think that if it were contrasted with a much longer period of imprisonment at home, the imprisonment at home would have a more deterring ef!ect. 1347. In the sentences which you have been contemplating this morning, where do vou propose that they should be carried out ; I mean those sentences of long transportation which vou have described : — The only opening which wc liave at present for transporiation is Western Australia. Now whatever advan- tage may be supposed to result from tninsportation, it certainly is secured at an enormous expense. We have sent 3,500 convicts to Western Australia, and the cost up to this period lias been 400,000 /. Those men were selected as being the best of our men ; they were selected for good conduct ; and I have not a doubt that 2,500 of those men would have returned, in tliis country, to an honest course of life. I therefore look upon it that you have paid 400,000 /. up to this period for getting rid of 1,000 men. 1348. Am I to infer trom that answer that you would wish to put a stop to transportation to Western Australia altogether? — I only look upon it as a means of disposing of the men. Under the present agreement and uiiderstauding with Western Australia, they only want to take the best of the men ; it is the worst of the men that we want to get rid of. 1349. Then, as the administration of the law now stands, your opinion seems to be, that being transported to Western Australia is a milder punishment than penal servitude at home r — Combined as it is with the shorter term of penal ser- vitude at home, I consider it so. 1350. As it stands ? — Yes. 1351. The usual conteu)])Iation with those who have to administer the law in this country is exactly the reverse, is it not? — \ es. 1352. Is it not, in your judgment, desirable that it shoidd be, in truth, the real state of the law that transportation, so long as it is continued for the graver crimes, should be a more penal gradation of punishment between penal servitude and the capital punishn^ent of death ? — Yes, certainly. 1353. Practically, it is not? — I do not think that it is. My suggestion about the sentences was directed to that point, so that if a combined system of trans- portation and penal servitude wore carried out it would be a more certain pu- nishment before the public at home, if a judge, in passing a sentence of 14 years' transportation, were to say, " Now, remember you will get a period of five years penal servitude at home, and then you will go abroad for 10 more." 1354. You (;f course are aware of the fact that W'estern Australia are rather desirous to have a greater number of convicts sent out than we have hitherto sent SELECT COMMITTEE ON TRANSPORTATION 129 sent out to them? — They have expressed a strong wish to that effect, but it Colonel J. JcW, arises, as Mr. Elliott has pointed out, I believe, more from a desire to have a great h-e., cb. government expenditure there than from anything else. Tliey have not the means of absorbing, in a healthy and legitimate manner, the labour of those 22 May 185S- convicts at the expiration of their sentence ; that is my lielief. 13.55. Have you considered the policy, or the possibility, of establishing a new penal colony ? — I liave, often. As I stated, in a former answer, I agree entirely with Mr. Elliott upon the difficulty of doing so. 13.56. You are adverse to any such establishment? — Quite so; I do not see how it is to be carried out without incurring all the evils which we have already submitted to. 1357. Mr. Monckton MilnesJ] You have stated that an arrangement has been made with NA'estem Australia by which they were only to take the best convicts? — That was the understanding. 13.58. How was that understanding come tor — By their petitioning; when they first petitioned for convicts to be sent, the understanding was, that they should be the best behaved convicts. 1359. How has that been expressed; in a letter from the Colonial Office, or in what form ? — I think you will find it in the transportation papers; but without knowing accurately what the terms were, it has been the understanding that the best convicts were to be selected for Western Australia. 1360. Is it within your experience that much importance is attached by pri- soners \\ho are not hardened, and who have not been several times committed, to the length of the period for which these sentences are passed ? — The prisoners look very much to the period that they have to be detained ; it is a subject of the greatest anxiety with all of them, both good and bad. And that leads nie to form the strong opinion which I have laid before the Committee of the importance of some remission of the period as an encouragement to good conduct. 1361. for instance, in a case in which two men were sentenced, one to four, and the other to seven years, either of penal servitude or of transportation, or a combination of both, would the effect be considerably different upon the minds of those prisoners? — I should think so; but when we speak of periods of penal servitude, they are not usually combined with transportation ; they are periods which they have to serve out in imprisonment. 1362. Is it not the fact, that in cases of first conviction the circumstance of the punislmient itself quite supersedes all consideration of the time for which the punishment shall be endured ? — It may be so ; but when the prisoners come into prison, and see before them the long series of months which they have to serve, it depends very much upon the relative term of the sentence whether it presses severely or otherwise upon the men's minds ; it is very difficult to form an opmion upon the point, because it afiects people so very differentl}'. 13113. But nevertheless, you are of opinion that the mental condition of pri- soners who are sentenced to a short or to a longer term of punishment is consi- derably different, even immediately upon the conviction ? — I think the prospect of a long term of imprisonment would necessarily have a more depressing influence upon a man's energies than a shorter one, and therefore render him less able to bear the punishment; and it is on that account the more necessary to support him by some stimulus of hope. 1364. Practically, do you find the demeanor of prisoners who are sentenced for a longer term, different from that of tiiose who are sentenced to a shorter one in the period immediately afterwards ? — No; I think there is nothing in their demeanor that would lead you to form an adverse judgment. If the sentence is prolonged to an unusually long period, there would require to be some little inducement in addition to what would be cfiven to a man under a shorter sentence, and the prisoner would be looking forward to getting that. 1365. If I understand you rightly, you attach more importance to the prin- ciple of hope being preserved in the mind of a man, than to any other mental action whatever? — I think it is essential that punisiiment should be combined with reformation. 1 think you cannot work out those combined elements of a sentence without giving a man encouragement. 1366. Do you find tliat the feelings of hope of reformation do germinate in the mind of a man soon after his punishment btgins; — I think the term of separate conSnemeul is most valuable in commencing a long svsloni of imprisonment ; it gives time for reflection ; it subdues the man, and it is almost, I may say, the 0.42. R basis 130 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE Colonel /. Jebh, basis upon which the discipline, which is now in operation on public works, n.E., c.B. stands. 1367- Ili's your attention ever been drawn tn the notion of a penal settlement 22 May 1856. ill British North America r — No. 1 368. Or in any other part of the world except in Australia ? — No ; I have not heard of a proposition of that sort for some years. North y\ustralia, as you are aware, was once almost constituted iuto a penal colony ; but it was abandoned by Lord Grey as soon as he came into office. The Falkland Islands and others have been talked of, !)nt that is frcqueutly done without reference to the chief difficulty which accompanies the aduiinistration of the law in respect of tiiese long sentences. It is at the period when a man is discharged that the difficulty arises. If the men were sent to a remote island where the administration of discipline could not be superintended, where you would either have to give to the governor verj' extended powers which might be abused, or to diminisli those powers to such an extent as that the convicts became the masters, you would not get a good result from the discipline which was administered tiiere ; but at the expiration of a certain period those men would have to come home, and the mother country would therefore have all the effi^cts of a lax system of discipline to contend against, and all the expense of it without nwy of the benefits. 1369. You appear to contemplate a long continuance of the custom of trans- porting prisoners to Bermuda and Gibraltar ; will not all the pultlic works which are necessary in those places be soon so complete that there will afterwards be no efficient use of convicts? — It is not said so by tlic Admiralty and Ordnance authorities ; tiiey contemplate for a very long peiiod reouiring the assistance of convict labour in those colonies, and if we may judge from wliat is close under our own eyes, at Portsmouth and at Woolwich, they would take double tlie number of convicts which they have now, and be glad to receive them. 1370. You have spoken upon the question of increasing the severity of the treatment of the convicts in Bermuda and Gibraltar ; do you thinii that that could be done without injury to their health in those climates : is not the present amount of severity as great as is consistent with the preservation of their health ? — I do not think it would be necessary to increase the severity of the discipline ; it would be the length of the period which would constitute its severity, the discipline being the same. 1 37 1. Mr. S. Fitzgerald.'] When you recommend a plan by which you would have first penal servitude for a considerable period, and transp'jrtation afterwards, how do you reconcile that plan witii the impossibility which 3'ou state now exists of absorbing additional labour into Western Australia, which is the only place where transportation can ije carried out? — I merely wish to lay before the Com- mittee the mode in which a sentence of transportation under a combined system, where you have some sentences of penal servitude and some of transportation to deal with, might be carried out ; it does not go to represent ray opinion, that transportation can be advantageously continued. 1372. I understood you to recommend that in future there should be a combined plan, by which a prisoner should be sentenced, first, to a lengthened period of penal servitude, and afterwards to transportation ? — That remark had reference to the means of working out the Act of 1853. 1373. In order to work out the Act of 1853 in the way in which you suggest, it would be necessary to find some place to whieli you could transport the criminals, and where their labour might be beneficially made use of? — Yes ; that is one consideration which leads me to think that this country ought not to be dependent upon a colony for carrying out so important a point as the sentences of the law. 1374. Then am I to understand that you do not recommend such a system as that which I have reierred to, by which there should be, first, a sentence of penal servitude, and afterwards a term of transportation? — If a colony can be found which is willing and able to absorb the labour of the convicts who are sent there, it would be of advantage to all classes to carry out a sentence of transportation; and then, with a view to preserve the deterring effect, a considerable period of that sentence might be carried out under penal servitude in this country, iu sight of everybody, as was the case when Van Diemen's Land was open. 1375- Then your recommendation, in fact, depends upon the possibility of finding some place where transportation can be properly carried out ? — En- tirely so. 1376. I understood SELECT COMMITTEE ON TRANSPORTATION. 131 1376. I understood you to suggest that it should be possible for a judge to Co]ojie] J. Jrbb, sentence a prii-ouer to penal servitude beyond the seas? — The sentences can n.E., c. b. now be carried out beyond the seas. ~ 1377. 1 understood you to say that it "ould have an additional deterring efl'ect ^^ ^J' ^^ ' if the sentence passed in open court was penal servitude beyond the seas? — No; penal servitude before commencing the transportation. 1378. I am not spying that the exact words which you used were "penal ser- vitude beyond the sens," but tliat you recommended tiiat it should be a sentence ■which tlie judge should have the power of passing, that the penal servitude sliould be worked out not in tliis country ? — No ; what I said was, that it would be desirable that a judge, in passing a sentence of 14 years' transportation, should be able to say to a prisoner, " Now, five years of this sentence will be carried out at Portland, or at Bermuda, or Gibraltar; but if you conduct yourself well, it may be remitted to four years ; that is the minimum ; but then you will go out to a colony beyond tlie seas for the remainder of the term." 1379. That is a difl'erent point altogether. I understood you to say, in answer to Sir John Pakington, that you thought it would be an additionally de- terring sentence if a judge had the power of saying that the penal servitude should not be passed in this country, but abroad ? — Yes ; in Gibraltar or Ber- muda. 1380. In what respect would that, in fact, differ from transportation, except in this, that the prisoner would have to be brought back again r — It would differ in this respect, that a man, instead of being at large with a ticket of leave, and receiving conditional pardon, in one of the remote colonies, would be imprisoned on public works at Gibraltar or Bermuda, in the same way as he would be at Port- land or Portsmouth. The only difference in the aspect out of doors would be that it is beyond the seas; so far it is in a remote colony, and, as Sir John Pa- kington, I think, suiigested, it might have a more deterring effect if the graver offences were carried out at Gibraltar or Bermuda. J 381. For what periods woidd you suggest that such a sentence should be passed ; at present tliere is no sentence between 10 years' penal servitude, and penal servitude for life; would you say that it should be in the power of the judge to settle the sentences for certain ofiences, to pass a sentence of penal servitude beyond the seas for 10 years ?— A sentence of transportation for life is now contemplated to be commuted into a sentence of 10 or 12 years' penal servi- tude ; it may be for life ; I think that a better gradation perhaps might be laid down than that in the Act ; but it did not occur to me before. 1382. Then, would you have a gradation not only as regards the period for which penal servitude was allotted as a punishment, but also as to the place where that penal servitude should be passed ? — It would be more a matter of the administration of discipline, I think, than for the judge. The Secretary of State has the power to carry out the penal servitude at home or at Gibraltar, or Bermuda. 1383. Sire/. PaIcii/gto?i.] You are aware that under the existing law, the sentence not uncommonly passed heretofore of 20 years' transportation is com- muted for a term of not less than six, nor more than 10 years. You have suggested to-day that there should be another substitute for 20 yeai-s" transpor- tation ; namely, seven years' penal servitude, followed by 15 years' transportation ? — Yes. 1384. Do you not think that the substitution which yon have suggested would be much more severe than that which it stands in lieu of? — I think perhaps it would be. i;?8,5. Mr. Adderley.~] I presume that in the new scale which you have sug- gested to-day, your idea was, not that any exact number of years was absolutely essential, but the general scheme of combining penal servitude with transpor- tation was the nature of your suggestion? — It was more ro lay before the Com- mittee the kind of scale, and the kind of objects which would require to be provided for. 138b. In fact, was not the idea of combining the two sentences in your mind, that of providing for another mode of discharge as different from thar of tickets of leave ? — No. 1 387. I understand your evidence to be, that you advise that we should either shorten or abolish altogether what we may call provisional discharge in this country, under tickets of leave? — Yes. 0.42. u 2 1388. And loo MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE ' o Colon<-\ J. J ebb, 13S8. And 1 understand your proposal to add sentences of transportation to R. E., c. B. those of penal servitude, to provide another mode of discharge at the completion of sentences of penal servitude? — In all cases where sentences of transportation ai May 1856. -were passed, I merely pro[)osed that tlicy should be carried out as at present, witii a slightly varied amount of penal servitude. The transportation, as at pro>ent, would he looked upon as a means of disposing of the men to their own advantage. 1389. Do you consider that the system which is now practically substituted for tickets of leave can be a permanent system ; namely, the gradations of treat- ment under the terms of a Notice which you quoted as having lately been esta- blished in the Government prisons? — I think that the gradations wliicli are now established do furnish some considerable motive to industry ; but I very much doubt its being equal to what we shall require if we wish to attain to the same amount of moral discipline which we have hitherto had at Portland and other prisons. 1390. 'Jhe gradation of privileges established by that notice was meant as a substitute for tickets of leave ? — It was not meant as a substitute for the tickets of leave. 1391. As a motive for good conduct? — Yes; it is rather a motive in place of a remission of a period of the sentence. 139:2. Is it your opinion that if we do retain any such remission of sentence, it should rather be upon a fixed system of periods than upon a mere vague dis- cretion in the breast of the Secretary of State? — That, 1 think, would not be of much importance, if it were understood, and if it -were generally acted upon. The Secretary of State has always laid down a minimum period of imprisonment ; then a longer period of imprisonment depended upon the man's conduct. 1393. 'Ihen you would not object to the sentence, in fact, being perfectly elastic, by an arbitrary discretion in the breast of the Secretary of State ? — I think there should alwaj's be a fixed minimum. What I explained, witii a view of placing the subject before the Committee, was, that if, instend of the present sentence of four years' penal servitude, a sentence were passed of five years, with an understanding that it might be remitted by the Secretary of State to four, that woald furnish a better motive to good conduct than the present gradations of punishment. 1394. You propose that the discretion of the Secretary' of State shoidd be limited to a scale of fixed periods of remission? — As far as the minimum of im- prisonment went. 139';. Is it not the case that any such gradation of privileges as you have quoted being introduced by notice, must more or less have the fault of beiug little known by prisoners? — it is thorougldy known to all the prisoners, because each man has it in his cell in separate confinement, and it is hung all round the prisons, in those prisons wdiere there is association. 139(.). Still those who cannot read are not made acquainted with it? — It is fully explained to them ; it is read, I believe, once a month to those who can read and those who cannot. 1397. Still such notices are unknown to the criminal class out of doors? — They are unknown out of doors, and perhaps for this reason, tliat it would be desirable to conceal as much as possible the little remissions and indulgences which accompany gradations of imprisonment, and to let it be thought out of doois to be a severe sentence when in reality it was not quite so severe as it was believed to be. 1308. But unless the terms of the remission are equally notorious with the sentence to punishment, do you not run the great risk and disadvantage of uncertainty of system ? — No, the uncertainty is not much ; rhe period of con- finement is, after all, the period which both the men in prison and tlie men out of prison look to : but I think it would always be of advantage that, retaining the severe aspect of the punishment, it should be awarded as mildly as was con- sistent with the preservation of discipline and the other objects of the sentence. 1399. Is there not another disadvantage in any such system of privileges pub- lished by notice in prisons, that tiie system becomes very complicated ?— No, it is not. found so ; we have no trouble. 1400. Do you not consider that the scale of treatment by Notice which you have quoted as part of the old Portland system, and the Notice wiiich has lately been substituted for tickets of leave, are both complicated s\ stems? — They appear so to those who have not to work them ; but the prisoners thoroughly understand SELECT COMMITTEE ON TRANSPORTATION. 133 understand it, and the officers who have the working of the system do so ; there Colonel J.Jebby is very little difficulty, though it looks complicated. re., c. b. 1401 . You stated that vou thought that we had had time to judge of the system ~ lately adopted :— Yes. . ^^ May 1856. 1402. But we can only judge of the system of tickets of leave from their application to a class of men who have not come under sentence since the Act passed? — I apprehend that those under sentence of penal servitude at this moment are the same classs of men as those who were formerly under the sentence of seven and ten years' transportation. 1403. Would they not come under the privilege of tickets of leave under ver}- different circumstances from those who have been sentenced since the Act? — None have been released who have been sentenced since the Act. 1404. Can you judge of the effect of a ticket of leave upon a man sentenced under the Act, from the efi'ect of a ticket of leave upon a man who was under sentence at the time of the passing of the Act ? — Scarcely ; because tlie remission wliich might po.ssibly be made of a four years' sentence would not, probably, exceed six or nine, or at most 12 months, and there would be a short period for which such a man would be under a ticket of leave ; whereas a ticket of leave in the case of a 10-years' man extends to the full period of his sentence of transportation. 1405. Am I to understand that the |)rinciple upon which commutation of sentence was carried out with reference to those 6,700 men under sentence at the time of the passing of the Act, was rather a vague and uncertain principle ? — No, it was carefully considered. 1406. It rested, in the first place, I understand, upon the supposition that the prisoners under sentence felt a disappointment at the passing of the new Act ? — Very great disappointment at being prevented from embarking for Van Diemen's Land. 1407. Their disappointment of transportation was one ground upon which the commutation rested, and their exemplary conduct was another ? — Yes ; the practice formerly was to release the seven-years' men at the expiration of half their term of sentence. These men had liad before them the notices which gave them hopes that if they conducted themselves well, the seven-years' men would be embarked at the end of two years. 1408. Were not the two grounds, namely, the supposition of disappointment at the passing of the Act, and the amount of exemplar)' conduct of these men, somewhat vague and arbitrary as a foundation upon which to base the commu- tation of sentence f — I think not; the former practice was taken into considera- tion ; and looking to the disappointment which these men had had, it was only a remission of about six months with the seven-years' men. The period in which a seven-years' man is released now, if he has conducted himself «ell, is three years ; under the former practice it would have been 3 i years, and he would have gone away perfectly free, whereas tlie ticket of leave now presses upon him for the remainder of his sentence. 1409. Is it not the case that the principle of commutation then was so rough a principle, and so different from any principle upon which a ticket of leave would now be granted, that you can hardly judge from the effect of one, what would be the effect of the other- — The period that they should serve before receiving their tickets of leave was very carefully considered ; it was the subject of a long correspondence between the Home Office and myself. 1410. With regard to the revocations of licence, can you state at all what proportion of revocations have been for new offences, as com|)ared with the revocations on the >;round of suspicious circumstances of life r — I think almost the whole are for new offences. 1411. Still, have a certain number of licences been revoked on the ground of suspicious circumstances ? — I cannot charge my memory, but I scarcely know an instance. 1412. AVith regard to the large proportion of men discharged on tickets of leave, going to the two counties of Middlese.v and Staffordshire, I conclude that the cause ot those two counties having a larger proportion Avas, tliat they offered more facilities for employ;ncnt? — No; the men generally go b;!ck to the places from which they came. I think it more accurately represents the proportion of • criminals in those counties, or tlie proportion sentenced in those counties. 1413. In suggesting an elasticity as to the terms of detention, I conclude that 0.42. K 3 you 134 IkllNUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE Colonel J.Jebb, yoii itly upon internal discipline as giving a sufficient scope for motives to good K. E , c. B. conduct ? — Yes, very much. 1414- You tliink that that may l)e relied upon? — Yes, I think we have full 3'^ - ay 1 5 . experience to justify that opinion. 141.5. Do you to any extent adopt Captain Maconochie's views of the sub- stitution of task sentences for time sentences r — I think the plan carried out in its integrity is absolutely impreticablo. 1416. To any extent? — To any extent. The motives suggested by Captain Maconochie and the objects of discipline may be the same; they arc the broad motives of reward and punishment inilueueing human beings; but those are laid down in the Bible. 1417. Do yon think that there is more scope in Government prisons for such internal discipline tlian in common prisons? — Much more, for tiiis reason, that ill common prisons you iiave to deal with very short sentences ; those sentences do not afford the means or any hopes of effecting reformation, and therefore you trust to the punishment being the deterring element of the sentence, and not the length of the sentence. 141 (S. Owing to that ditierence of sentence I understood you to say that you considered tlie common prisoners were a class who gave more legit|iuiate grounds of alarm to this country than the Government prisoners ? — That was owing to the mucli larger number of them, and the much larger proportion of re- committals. 7419. Do you consider that the two classes of prisoners can be put into the same category ? — No ; 1 scarcely tliink it would be expedient ; I do not think it is a uood plan to mix short and long term prisoners together ; it disturbs the discipline, and gives the means of communication between prisoners and their friends out of doors. 1420. 1 understood you to say that you consider that the main improvement to be looked to is in the modes of taking care of prisoners on their discharge ? — 1 tliink it is of great importance that prisoners should be assisted a little ou discharge. Those who are discharged from the Government prisons are, as far as we can do so, assisted, but I believe that very few of those who are dis- charged from ordinary prisons receive any assistance at ail, and I attribute the number of recommittals in some measure to that circumstance. 1421. Would your proposals, with reference to taking care of discharged prisoners, apply to both classes of prisoners, Government and common prisons ? — Certainly. 1422. I understood you to say, that any institutions for the care of discharged prisoners would be better in the iiands of private individuals than in the hands of Government r — I should tliink so. 1423. Have you any evidence to give the Committee as to the experience of such institutions, further than what you have already stated? — The experience in Paris is extremely satisfactory, but it refers chiefly to juveniles. There is an establishment there under the immediate superintendence of Monsieur B6renger, and tlie number of those who have been rescued from a course of crime by the assistance which they have received is most gratifying. 1424. Is that an institution in the hands of the Government or in the hands of private individuals? — In the hands of private individuals; but all those prisoners who are released on Ucence provisoiremcnt.. are paid for iiy the Govern- ment at the rate of, I think, 75 centimes a day. 1425. Do you see any reason why a similar systeni should not be applied to adult prisoners? — I do not see any reason at all why it should not. i42r>. You made use of the expression that transportation was equally conve- nient in the disposal of adult prisoners as the system ol jjutronagc for juveniles ? — Yes. 1427. Did you mean in that answer to draw any distinction, that the two classes were not equally to be dealt with by the system of patronage 1 — No; I have always advocated some assistance being given to adult prisoners as well as to juveniles. The juveniles, perhaps, are more in need of it, but it is an equally important element as an adjunct ot prison discipline. 1428. Can vou give us any further information as to such institutions abroad ? —No. 1429. Do you know of any such institutions, either established or being established, SELECT COMMITTEE ON TRANSPORTATION. 135 established, in England ? — I have no precise knowledge of it ; there is an insii- Colonel J.Jebb, tution in Westminster, well known to the public. r. e., c. u. 1430. Chairman'] Do you mean tlie one with which Mr, Nash was connected ? — Yes, the one which Mr. Nash had formerly. 22 May i«5G. 1431. Mr. Adderley.~\ Do you consider that such institutions, generally established throughout the kingdom for adult criminals on their discliarge, would get rid of most of the difficulties as to such prisoners finding employment ? — I do not think tiiat it is desirable to assemble prisoners in the way that they are assembled at 'NA'estminster ; I shouhi rather prefer a system of assistance without assembling them, if it were p()ssil)le. It may be necessary in some instances to have a place to which they can come for sleeping, but a good deal of assistance may be afforded to the men withont bringing them together. 1432. The object is to get them a sort of transitional employment, in order that they may regain their character r — It is. 1433. Have you sufficiently considered the subject to give us your views as to the nature of such an institution ? — I have not formed any definitive plan upon it, because I felt tl^at it must fall upon private individuals to form these institutions. There is so much benevolence in this country, and there are so many ways in which it is applied, that when the subject comes fdrly under con- sideration, I should hope that the question would be resolved. 1434. Private individuals disposing of such men abroad would avoid the difficuUy which Government has in helping discharged prisoners to emi- grate? — Tlie Government, of course, could not assist directly in any scheme of emigration for prisoners discharged from gaol ; but private individuals who took them under their care could do so, and that was one object which I contem- plated in suggesting a contract with the directors of the Refuge for the Desti- tute, that they would be enabled to assist the female prisoners who were confided to their care to emigrate, affording an opening which the Government could not avail theiriselves of 1435. You cannot state generally the comparative success of institutions of the sort in Europe taken up by Government with that of those taken up by private individuals? — No. 1436. But what I understand you to suggest is, that private individuals should contribute from their private means for the purpose, and should enable in various ways dischaiged prisoners to dis])erse themselves where employment could be found for them ?— That is the simple object to which benevolent efforts might be directed with great advantage. 1437. Mr. B. Denison.] Is a ticket of leave at all advantageous to the public? — In no other wa}^ than as it may possibly act as a restriction upcn tlie man. 1438. Is a ticket of leave at all detrimental to the future interests of the man ? — I think it is, for the reasons I have before stated. 1439. Could a released convict conceal from his neighbourhood the fact whether he had a ticket of leave or not ? — It is possible he might if he were in a large town : he could not in a country district, if it was the place of his birth. 1440. Has transportation, in your opinion, as a whole been more advantageous to a convict than confinement in jirison at home ? — I think so, certainly. 1441. Will you state why? — The generality of the convicts uho have been transported have looked forward to tlieir embarkation with very great hope, and the greater proportion of them have obtained employment in the colonies, and been placed in circumstances which, I sliould think, would be even more favour- able than those of a similar class who had emigrated. 1442. As regards the mere punisiiment, are you of opinion that certain penal servitude at home would o))erate upon the convict population more effectually than a sentence partly of penal servitude and partly of transportation r — I think so, because, if we are to judge from former experience of the periods of penal servitude and impris(mment which have been annexed to a sentence of transporta- tion, those periods have been very much shorter than the corresponding periods would be if the whole period was served out under penal servitude. 1443. As regai'ds tlie mere punishment, are you of opinion that certain penal servitude at home would operate upon the convict popuhition more efi'ectually than a sentence partly of penal servitude and partly of transportation ? — 1 am hardly prepared to answer that question. The criminal himself would most certainly regard a short period of penal servitude, followed by a long period c^" 0.42. K 4 transportation. 136 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE Colonel J. Jebb, transportation, as less severe than a long period of penal servitude ; that is a R. B., c. B. matter of" fact. 1444- Do you see any probability of a new penal colony being formed, to 32 May 1856. •wliii;li convicts could be sent? — As I stated before, Mr. Elliott can speak upon that point witli much more authority than I can ; but I entirely concur with him in considering that it would bo a very difficult thing to accomplish. 1445. Then, assuming that there is no great probability of finding a new colony, must not we provide, in the best mode we can, for dealing with convicts at home r — That has always been my view, because I have felt that in such a country as this we ought not to be dependent upon the will of a colony for car- rying out the sentences of the law. 144(). Mr. Deef/es.] Supposing there is no further vent for sending men to a penal colony than exists at present, are the establishments sufficient now for car- rying out the system of penal servitude at liome ? — Yes. Wc have full accom- modation at home, and at Bermuda and Gibraltar, and in Ireland, I think, for carrying out to any extent sentences of penal servitude on the numbers that we may suppose would come upon the hands of tlie Government. We have at this moment a prison for 1,100 at Chatham, not yet open. 1447. Lord Naas.] Why was it that tiie attempt failed which the Govern- ment appear to liave made to induce the society called the Refuge for the Destitute to take some of the women ? — Chiefly on considerations of a financial nature ; the accommodation at the Refuge for the Destitute did not admit of their taking any great number from the Government prisons, and they would have had to build to a great extent to enable them to enter into that contract. The dithculty that arose at the Treasury was in what way this money was to be secured to the Refuge for the Destitute in the event of their laying it out. That wss the first difficulty Avhich occurred ; and during the discussion which followed the Government changed, at least Sir George Grey came to tiie Home Office, and, 1 think, iiis view was, (and I could not but concur in it,) that there would be some difficulty, as a general rule, in remitting so many of the sentences and so large a proportion of them, and placing the custody of the females in the hands of others than the Government. 144S. Then such an attempt is not likely to be renewed r — I think not. 1 4^:19. Do you concur in the opinion expressed by Captain O'Brien, that the greater number of the women wlio have been released upon licences, especially the older ones, will sooner or later find their way back to the prisons r — I very mucii fear that the difficulties in the way of a woman retracing her steps, and finding employment when she has lost her character to the extent which she must have done in first of all being sentenced, and then in the fact of her being- released from a prison, will interfere with her obtaining employment. 1450. The cessation of transporiation, I suppose, throws a greater difficulty in the way of these women finding any employment after the expiration of their sentence r — No women have been sent to Western Australia at all ; the whole of them are now dealt with in this country. 1451. Have you any plan which yon can suggest to the Committee by which these tremendous evils which are described by Captain O'Brien with regard to the women could be averted ; he says that they become servants in disreputable places ; that the}- become servants in bmthels and places where stolen goods are received ; in places where there is vice and poverty, and where there is all that is immoral ? — The only suggestion which I can make (and I cannot too earnestly press it) is the formation, if by any means it can be promoted, of refuges, to which these poor people can go, and the Government assist them to a certain extent. 14.)2. Would not a person who leaves a refuge be in a very little better posi- tion than a person wlio leaves your establishment at Fulham r — She would be in a much more favourable position, because, after a residence of six or eight months at the refuge, as soon as the directors of the refuge were satisfied that they could rely u[ion the conduct of the women, they would either assist them to emigrate or find places for them. There is another institution at Manor Hall under Miss Neave, which has been very successful in finding places for dis- charged prisoners. 14,53. Have any been sent who have been sentenced to penal servitude or lrans|)ortation ? — One or two from Brixton have been sent, but I am now speaking of prisoners discharged from ordinary prisons. I have heard that they SELECT COMMITTEE ON TRANSPORTATION. 137 they have so many applications upon their books for the services of women Colonel J. Jebb, whom they can recommend, that they cannot always supply the demand. h.e., c. b. 1454. i)o you think that a sufficient number of institutions of that kind are ' ever likely to be formed in the country to take that portion of our female "^"^ ay i 5 . convicts who have behaved well ? — I think that, as regards Government prisoners, only a proportion of the women would require to be assisted in that way. Many of them are women who have families, to whom they return ; others have friends who would assist them; but the remainder, who are destitute, require a helping hand before they can get employment. 1455. But you could not expect these societies to deal with any women except those who have conducted themselves well in prison r — No. I think that patronage, to use the French term, can hardly be extended to any who have not earned by good conduct some confidence from the persons under whom they have served ; it is almost a necessary condition, I think, of the system, that some reliance may be placed upon those who are recommended. 1456. Then, under the present system a great number of those women who have not conducted themselves well in prison, would at the expiration of their sentence be returned to those courses which Captain O'Brien has described ? — Yes, I should fear so. Every assistance that is practicable is given them. Mr. Moran, the chaplain, and Mrs. Martin, the superintendent, take great trouble in ascertaining the means of employment, and what degree of assistance can be given to every woman who goes away. 1457. The proportion of ill-conducted women in prison is very large, is it not? — No, I do not think it is. 1458. Nearly half? — The system of prison discipline applicable to women has hardlv had a fair trial yet ; it is only just brought into operation as a system. 145Q. Do you not think that the objections to sending women of this descrip- tion back upon society are far greater, both as regards themselves and as regards society, than exist with regard to men ? — Yes ; the evil, however, is less in degree, because the number of female prisoners does not exceed about one-filth that of the males ; but if transportation were continued in any form, I would earnestly contend for a proportion of females being sent ; I think it should be so, not only as a matter of principle, but as a matter of convenience to the Government. 1460. Do you think that if transportation took place to a colony, the modes of employing women are more applicable to their circumstances than to those of the males ? — It is a much more certain way of disposing of them than they can possibly get in this country ; and so long as transportation continued to Van Diemen's Land there was very little diSiculty, I believe, in those women doing well. ]4t)i. Mr. Deedes.l You stated, in answer to the Noble Lord, that until lately 3'ou thought that no good system had been applied to women ■ — Yes. 1462. What new system do you allude to? — Up to the period of the discon- tinuance of transportation to Van Diemen's Land all the women were sent out there very soon after conviction ; they were merely assembled at Millbank for, perhaps, two or three months, and were then embarked to Van Diemen's Land, where, after a short jJi'obation, they obtained tickets of leave; therefore on the cessation of transportation an entire!}' new system had to be considered ; Brixton prison was purchased for the purpose of commencing it. 1463. That was the system to which you alluded? — Yes. 1464. Mr. S. Fitzgerald.] Will you explain how it is that you have sent no women to Western Australia ; for what reason is it ? — The colonists refused to receive them ; I strongly advocated the importance of it at the time, and the Duke of Newcastle, who was, I think, Colonial Secretary, referred to the inhabitants of \Vestern Australia to know whether they were willing to receive females as well as males. They refused to do it; but I believe it was because they had the hope of getting female emigrants. 1465. Mr. Serjeant O' Brien.] You mentioned that the reformatory institutions would be better supplied by private funds than by Government. Will you tell me wliy ? — I did not exactly refer to the funds, but I stated that private indi- viduals unconnected with the Government would work them better. 1466. Will you explain the grounds of that opinion r — The grounds are, that there cannot be a direct interference by the Government in the disposal of pri- soners, and that the numerous little questions which arise, of who can take them, 0.42. S and 138 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE C o\one\ J. Jebb, and wliere they can be sent to, and Iiow they can be employed, are much more R. B., c.B. favourably vvorki'd out by individuals who really take an interest in the work, tlian by any Government officials appointed to such duty. It can only be 22 May 185G. carried on effectually from a pure love and desire of doing good to their fellow- creatures. 1467. You have stated that you think it would be advisable to have a period of five years' penal servitude, and some eight or ten years' transportation after- wards substituted for tlie punishment of fourteen years' transportation r — Yes. My recommendation was, tiiat it woidd have a more certain appearance in the eyes of the criminal population if they knew that a sentence of transportation wonld be so carried out. i4(jS. It can be carried out in that way under the present system ? — It can. Captain Waller Crofton, called in ; and Examined. Capt. Jf. Crofton. 1469. Chairman.'] I believe you hold the office of Chairman of the Directors of Convict Prisons in Ireland ?— I Tvas appointed Chairman of the Directors of Convict Prisons in Irehind under the Act of the 17th & 18th Victoria in 1854. In 1853 I was on a Commission of Convict Inquiry in Ireland, and for some years previous to that, as a county magistrate in England, I had given great attention and consideration to the subject of the treatment of criminals generally and the prevention of crime. I mention this to the Committee to show that any opinion which I may give is not alone derived from my official connexion with the subject. 1470. What was the state of the Irish convict prisons at the time when this Act into which we are now inquiring was passed ? — As de))lorable as it is possi- ble to concei\e ; the prisoners were morally and pliysicaily prostrate in every way. There was a want of the element of hope in them, of education, and of everything one would wish to find in prisoners, and which exists in the convict depots in England. The prisons were overcrowded to a great degree, and my statement will be corroborated by my reading a despatch from the Governor of Western Australia, who had just received a large number of Irisli convicts. 1471. What isthedateofthatde.spatch? — September 11th, 1854. The prisoners had left Ireland before our Board was formed. I will read an extract of a few lines from our First Report, w hich introduces this despatch : " Tlie deplorable aspect and apparent destitution of tiic Irish convicts appeared to us to require immediate atten- tion, and we have endeavoured as far as possible to remedy this state of things, which contrasts strongly with the condition of those in England. Our opinion is corroborated l)y extracts appended trora the Reports of the Governor, Comptroller- general, and Superintendent of Convicts, &c., in Western Australia, dated 11th Sep- tember 1854, and forwarded for the information of the Secretary for the Colonies, — extracts fiom a despatch from Governor Fitzgerald to the Right Honourable Sir George Grey, Baronet : — ' 11th September 1854. Some of the Irish prison- ers, per ships 'Phoebe Dunbar,' and ' Robert Small,' have proved in many in- stances, I regret to say, an exception to this very gratifying state of things; the result of recent experience and close observation of these men, you will perceive, induces the Comptroller-general to hope that men from the Irish prisons will not be sent to this colony with tickets of leave. If, therefore, future drafts be sent, I fully concur with the Comptroller-general in thinking that this class of prisoners, more especiallv than any otiier, should remain inmates of the prison at Fremantle, under rigid control, for at least twelve months, to give any hope of sending them forth into the community trained to habits of industry and self-reliance, which they appear to be somewhat indisposed to exercise in general.' " Then there is an extract from the Report of the Superintendent, under dute of 10 January 1854, which was two or three months afterwards, with reference to the same subject : " In the instances of the Irish prisoners received per the ships ' Robert Small ' and ' Phoebe Dunbar,' it was held by judicial and medical authority that their prostrate condition, physically and morally, the result, it was conjectured, of lone: imprisonment, low diet, and bad training, rendered it necessary that they should be subjected to a course of preparatory discipline, arbitrary in duration in some cases, but relative and proportionate to the term of sentence in others, prior to their being exposed to the trials of a strange climate and novel society ; and certain compensating allowances in these arbitrary cases were then discussed and decided upon." It then says, " But it may be re- marked SELECT COMMITTEE ON TRANSPORTATION. 139 marked as a noticeable feature in the idiosyncracy of the Irish prisoners, that Capt. IV. Cro/ion. is to say, those wiio arrived direct from Ireland, and wlio had not undergone the present discipline held applicable to convicts sentenced in England, that 22Mayi8j6. there appears a singular inaptitude to comprehend the nature of moral agencies, or to beafl'ected by them ; neither do they seem to understand the desirableness, we will say, of self-reliance, or the necessity for the exercise of habits of pro- priety, industry, and prudence, as a means towards extricating themselves from the consequences of former errors." 1 am reading this corroboration of what I have stated to lead the subject to the reason why tickets of license were not issued in Ireland until recently. What the Governor of \yestern Australia thought that he could not do in Western Australia, viz., to give them tickets (jf license, we felt, for similar reasons, as directors of convict prisons, we could not recommend in Ireland. These reasons have been pretty well explained from his letter and from what I have stated. I will, iiowever, read a few additional lines from our Report : " The same feeling which prevents our inflicting on a colony convicts who have not been subjected to a proper course of prison discipline, also pre- cludes our blunging forward prisoners for discharge in this country on tickets of license, as in England. We consider such ticket of license to be a sort of guarantee to the community, that in consequence of a prisoner having been sub- jected to a proper course of prison discipline and reformatory treatment, he is considered a fit subject to be received and employed by those outside the prison. Such reformatory course not having hitherto been pursued in this country, we have not felt ourselves justified in recommending the issue of tickets of license." 1472. You did not for some time after the passing of the Act recommend any such issue ? — We did not recommend it until v/ithin the last five or six months. 1473. Did you take any steps in the meantime, with the view to recommend- ing it subsequently ? — The first steps that we took were to establish a proper system of discipline to enaMe us ultimately to carry out the Act. The first part of that system was to remedy the overcrowding which existed. There were upwards of 1,000 more in the prisons than they could properly hold, and the Lord Lieutenant (Lord St. Germans) considering that the best course to relieve this overcrowding was to take the Penal Servitude Act as a basis with regard to the punishments, in which a four years' sentence of penal servitude is con- sidered adequate to seven years' transportation, and six as the maximum of 10 years, &c. ; we were then instructed to prepare a list of prisoners so circum- stanced, and recommend the best conducted that we could find of them for dis- charge from time to time, absolutely. This was done, and at last the prisons were reduced to some sort of order, so that we could arrange them and esta- blish a proper course of discipline, taking care that the system of separate imprisonment was commenced with, and then following out the English system with regard to public works afterwards, establishing gratuities to give convicts the element of hope, and induce them to conduct themselves properly. 1474. Lord Naas.] When was the Irish Prisons Act passed? — Since the Penal Servitude Act. 1475. What is the date of it? — August 7th, 1854. 1476. ^^ as there any previous Prisons Act passed for Ireland ? — No, except- ing a very old Prisons Act. 1477. There were no Acts of Parliament relating to Ireland, similar to those regulating the management of Pentonville, Millbank, and the prisons here ? — No. 1478. Then in fact there was no legal authority till 1854 for the management of the Irish convict prisons? — There was not. 1479. Mr- ^- Fitzgerald.'\ Does your observation as to the crowding of the prisons refer only to the convict prisons, or generally ? — Only to the convict prisons. 1480. Chairman.'] Will you proceed to state what other steps you took with reference to the carrying out of this Act ? — I must trace the matter up to that time, in order to show how it has worked gradually to the present. We found that there was no separation for the juveniles; the juveniles and adults were all together in the convict prisons. Our first act, therefore, was, to re- commend the erection of a penal reformatory. I call it a penal reformatorv, to make it as distinct as possible from the general character of a penal prison. 0.42. s 2 There ' 140 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE Capt. fV. Crqfton. There are now in the Irish prisons, out of a number of 2,600 males, 700 (I am speaking in round numbers) convicted under 17 years of age. I found, on 94 May 1856. examination of, perhaps, 180 or 200 of these, that from bad training and ignorance, they required a certain system to be pursued, whicli shoidd partake a great deal more of the reformatory element than the penal ; therefore this prison was recommended to be of a penal reformatory character, in order to introduce that element. This has been approv^ed, and an Act passed for inclosing Lusk Common for that purpose. 1481. Whereabouts is that? — Within 11 or 12 miles of Dublin. In the meantime we separated the juveniles from the adults, and pursued a proper system with them, so far as we were enabled to do so. We then found, by exami- nation in the different prisons, that the educational departments were extremely neglected ; that though there was some teaching, there was no training ; and that really the ignorance was the most deplorable thing which could be imagined, not the fault, probabK', of the prisoners themselves, but of those who were teach- ing them. We at once selected two schoolmasters, whose antecedents gave us hopes that they would effect good amongst the prisoners. One was a ragged-school teacher, and the other had been a schoolmaster in a large union, where he had had a great deal of experience. We recommended their being appointed iiead schoolmasters for the prisons, and also being sent at the expense of the Government, to visit the different penal and reformatory establishments in this country, for the purpose of seeing the sort of principle which we expected them to act upon and carry out in the prisons. This they did, and I am happy to say with tlie most gratifying results ; for, notwithstanding the state of things which existed formerly, we have been able within this short time to report very differently, and the alteration with regard to the prisons is obvious to any one who visits them. We have been enabled to report now, that " In our last report we complained of tlie inefficient state of the educational departments of tlie convict depots, and stated the importance we conceived should be attached to them in this country, recommending, at the same time, that they should be placed under the inspection of the National Board of Education. Experience has proved that we were correct in our opinion; the report of Mr. M'Gauran, the head schoolmaster at Mountjoy prison, showing that after a very careful examination of the prisoners at that establishment he found that 96*2 per cent, were almost without any education at all ; a fact, we submit, calling for every exertion to render the educational machinery as perfect as possible, in order to open the minds of the prisoners by a system of training as well as teach- ing. Sensible of the very great importance of establishing a proper system of education in the prisons through which, unfortunately, thousands of human beings must pass, who are in turn subjected to its influence, we are gratified at being enabled to state that, although much of the past year has been taken up in arranging schoolrooms, classifying prisoners according to their attainments, appointment of schoolmasters, &c., a great desire has already been evinced by the prisoners to receive instruction ; and this is more remarkable, as ])roceeding from some advanced in age who, at the commencement of the year, attended school with the greatest reluctance," and that is quite true ; it; was with the greatest reluctance we could get them at first to come to school, but afterwards they came willingly, and the progress which the prisoners have made within the last twelvemonth is perfectly marvellous. But then, the schoolmasters have had their hearts in the work, and have led these men's minds, such as they were, to the utility of education ; and certainly the fruits have been much more than could have been expected. 1482. Lord Naas.'\ What prisons are those to which those schoolmasters are attached in Ireland ? — One master, I am sorry to sav, left us for Australia a few months ago ; the other is at the model prison of Mountjoy. We trained several other schoolmasters under these two persons, so that a uniformity of system might prevail throughout the prisons, and which therefore told, not only with regard to those prisons which these two masters were in, but throughout the establish- ments. 1483. Were all the old schoolmasters got rid of then ? — They were all got rid of with the exception of one. 1484. Chairman.'] Was the course which you adopted with regard to female convicts somewhat similar ? — Yes, We were fortunate in getting two school- mistresses, and certainly have attained the greatest possible results from their appointment. SELECT COMMITTEE ON TRANSPORTATION. 141 appointment. The state of the female prisoners was really deplorable, and we Capt. Tf'. Crofton. have large numbers of them, for in the convict establishments we now must have nearly 700 female prisoners. 22 May 1856. 1485. Have the results there been equally satisfactory ? — The results there have been quite extraordinary. Women who seemed so lost, that when you entered the prisons, you felt there was a character about them which was in every way to be deplored, are now totally different, and persons who now visited them would see what these schoolmistresses have achieved, for I look upon the improvement as principally due to education. The great desire now with the women is to come to school and be educated and enlightened ; for- merly it was their endeavour to keep away from it. The value of a certain kind of education, not a high education, but a moral training, is felt throuj;hout the whole establishments both by males and females. i486. You have also effected a system of separation of juveniles from adults ? — 'Yes, temporarily, until our prison is erected. We are now commencing to erect a juvenile prison at Lusk ; but at the same time we are enabled to place them separately from the adults, and successfully to get on with them, I hope. 1487. How soon was it that you thought yourselves justified in adopting the issue of tickets of leave? — About November last, we felt that we had some grounds to suppose that they might be issued carefully, and under proper safe- guards. 1488. What is the plan which you have adopted for that purpose ? — Tlie plan is by the institution of intermediate establishments between the prisons and the world. We found that men discharged out of the prisons in the ordinary way were perfect children ; they did not know what to do ; they had not been thinking for themselves for years, and were dependent upon every person they came near ; and whatever might have been their intentions to reform, the moment they were outside the prison they fell into their old evil associations again, and were quite astraj' as to what they should do. This was partly what induced us to recommend a system of intermediate establishments. We thought also that we should be enabled to place them in a position in which the community would be rather more satisfied with the test of their reformation ; for unless the community would employ the discharged criminal, we felt that whatever we might do in prison, the difficulty was not solved. It is quite clear from what has occurred in England, and what has been going on for some time, that that has been the great difficulty. The people are not satisfied without a test of a man's character, however exemplary you might term him and consider him in the prison, where he is watched by prison officers and every one around him, still it is not considered by the world as satisfactory as if he was placed in a position where he would be exposed to temptation : we therefore recommended the institution of these establishments, where the men would have greater freedom of action. 1489. Lord iVflfls.] What establishments are those? — There is one in Smith- field, in Dublin. We have Smithfi^eld Prison, as an industrial establishment (if 1 may so call it), to hold GO or 80, and another at the mouth of Cork Harbour (Fort Camden). Our object in having small numbers was, because we felt that individualization might be brought to bear upon them, and that we should really be able to get at the characters of these prisoners better. Smithfield was commenced in January of this year. 1490. The system was altered? — Quite so; the prison was converted into an industrial establishment. Of course the arrangements had to be altered. I will explain in detail the arrangements at work at Smithfield, with the results that have as yet taken place, and the numbers which we have discharged from it, both on licence and absolutely. 1491. Chairman.] Wiiat is the first point to which you propose to draw our attention ? — The rules which govern the establishment. 1492. When were they made: — At the formation of the establishment in January last. The number at Smithfield is from 60 to 80 ; the number con- stantly fluctuates. 1493. Lord Naas.'\ What is the number at Fort Camden? — Eighty-five. 1494. Is the management at Fort Camden and at Smithfield precisely the same ? — The management is, but the class of prisoners is different. 1495. Mt. S. Fitzgerald.} Do the rules state how the selection of the prisoners is made ? — Yes. 0.42. S3 1496. Chairman.'] 143 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE Caot /r Crnflon 1406. Chairman.] We undeistan;! that these rules are the rules now acted " ' upon? — Yes, and they will explain the establishment at the same time. •22 May 18-6 M07- What are tiiey ?—" 'J he Government convict establishments in Ireland, of an industrial cliaracter, are, Smithfiehl, in Dublin, and Fort Camden, at the month of Cork Ilariiuur. There soon will be an additional one opened in l)ul)lin, and another at Fort Carlisle, on the opposite side to Fort Camden. In Sniithfield, tradesmen, such as tailors, slioenii.kers, &c., &c., and invalids, are employed. At Fort Camden there are able-bodied labourers, stone-masons, stone-cutters, car- penters, &c., selected principally from Spike Island, which is a large depot for the employment of that class of men. At present only those prisoners sentenced to transportation are confined in these establishments. When convicts, by prisim character and length of servitude (as three years out of seven years, and four out - there is a sort; of competitive examination. Now, these men were lamentablv ignorant when they entered tliat institution ; they were perfectl)'' uninformed, although many of them could read and write; but it is not the case now. Before they have been at work for two or three months, as Lord Carlisle (who is a visitor there three or four times a week), can testify, the compe- titive examinations which they go through are marvellous. They show that they understand these subjects, which I have been just alluding to, and that they can appreciate the advantage of going to a colony, or of doing well at home when out of tlie prison. There is another thing which I can speak of, for I have looked very much into it, and have seen very many men since they have left the establish- ment. I found that many who came there witli excellent prison characters, vet came there with every disposition to go off to tiieir friends again when tickets of license were issued ; they were bent on leturning to their evil associations in Ireland, and to the neighbourhood where they had been badly trained ; but after a time, I found that many of these men felt it to be to their advantaije to break these evil connexions, and preferred waiting on the chance of getting some situation in Dublin, instead of returning to their old localities, intending ultimately to get to the colonies, when they had saved sufficient monev to pay their passage. There are no^v several in Dul)lin whom we have discharged; I have a list of the number. There are many doing uncommonly well who have got employment ; their employers come themselves to attend these lectures occasionally. I have only brought evidence with regard to those men who have been out for about two months, because the first two months is generallv the time when they would get into trouble. There are 23 discharged on license, who have been out for nearly two months. Alto"etiier, 100 have STone through the establishment up to this date ; but I am speaking of those who have had the test, and who have been out for the period named on license. Twenty- three have passed into the world through Fort Camden and Smithfield, and I can account, up to the present time, for the regular and satisfactory 0,42. s 4 employment 144 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE Capt. IV. Crofton. employment and conduct of 21 out of the 23 ; but as I obtained the return very ^ recently, only two days before leavino- Dublin, the other two have not answered, 22 May 1856. therefore 1 cannot claim them. I think we are bound to show, not only that those who have been discharged are not re-convicted, but that they are doing well, in order to establish our case, that we have reformed them. 1500. You have ascertained that with regard to the 21 ? — Decidedly ; and of 10 out of those 21 I can speak personally, because they are in employment in Dublin, and are coing on satisfactorily and well. They constantly, sometimes once a week, and sometimes twice, attend these lectures. This of course is an example 10 those who are remaining in the establishment, patiently waiting till scmie employment comes. 1 find that these offers of employment, in consequence of good conduct, are coming in much faster ; and, indeed, from the public coming to this institution, and seeing the way in which it is worked, the prisoners have the means of helping themselves, if they are willing to do so, by evincing their industry. Lun)ng enough, but I must first of all assume a principle conceded ; it is with regard to the system of transportation. I have never made an inspection of any prison where I have not found prisoners waiting to see me, begging as a favour that they might be sent to the colonies ; it is looked forward to as a boon and a pri- vilege, and short;-sentenced men have invariably come to me, and begged that they might go out to the colonies ; anil as education advances witii them, or thev really understand what the colonies are, so I am persuaded will the desire in- crease to go to them. At Smitlifield, where we have lectures on the colonies, and their different advantages thoroughly explained to them, I received a letter from 4 5 persons out of 60, all signing and begging to be sent to the colonies from there. 15-24. Mr. Henlty.^ In the case of a man sentenced to four years' penal ser- vitude, what amount of money should vou contemplate, supposing his conduct to have been not of the best, but average good conduct, would accumulate for him in the four years upon the system you have indicated? — It would depend upon !iow long we kept liim in this institution, because I would not give men high gratuities during the time they are in the prisons where they are good and bad alike ; but I would pay them highly when they show by good conduct that they deserved to be drafted into these establisliments. Any calculation would there- fore depend upon the periods for which they were in these establishments. \S-5- Assuming a man to be in the better part of the establishment which you have described, and assuming him to have got into it as a man of good conduct, and that the course is pursued with respect to him during the whole of the four years, which you seem to indicate as being desirable, what amount of money would a man of tiiat sort have at the end of the four years ? — He would have somethins: near 15 /. 1526. Assuming a man to have arrived at the end of the four years willi 15 /., and to have had a wife and two or three children when he committed the offence for which he was sentenced to penal servitude, what in your mind would be the effect upon the honest labourers who had not committed an offence, of seeing a man at the end of four years, having been himself maintained by the Govern- ment, and his wife and family maintained by the parish, with 15/. in his pocket to go to a colony ; what would be the efl'ect upon the minds of other labourers who might have known that man out of prison, they being in the same position of life as to family, and the means of earning which that man held r — The effect would be, that this man has expiated his offence, has shown himself to be a reformed man, and therefore he has earned latterly in the prison a certain sum to help him in that reformation ; a more favourable effect 1 should fancy than would be produced by those who liad been discharged without this good conduct, and as is the case from Bermuda, with 35 /. or 40 /. in their pocket, after committing the gravest possible offences. 1527. We will take the case of a man with a wife and three children, an ordinary unskilled labourer, not having committed an offence; do you think that that man, while maintaining his wife and his family, would be equally able to put by 15 /. at the end of four years to carry himself to the colonies? — Not equally; but that man has tlie blessing of a good character, and can go out without any money to the colonies. 1528. That SELECT COMMITTEE ON TRANSPORTATION. 149 1528. That is not always so, is it? — There is scarcely any difficulty with a Capt. IF. Crojton. man with a good chaiacter, because the funds of the Colonial Emigration- office will aid such a man to go ; there is a payment of lO.y., for inbtance, to 26 May 185G. Australia. 1529. What do you suppose would be the effect, in a village, of a man coming home from Bermuda with 30 /. or 40 /. in his pocket (which they have done), and the honest labourers in the same village, who have been struggling to maintain themselves and their families, finding that a man who has been transported for 14 years has got 40 Z., while they have not a sixpence? — The worst possible effect ; and it is the desire to remedy that which would make me alter the prin- ciple, whicli gives to men of bad character who have committed serious crimes very high rates of payment, both in Bermuda and in Western Australia, and which I would only make the premium for good conduct tested reformation. 1 1530. We will take a man who has been not of bad conduct in Bermuda, but of good conduct in Bermuda ; he shall have been sentenced for a burglarv, and served his 14 years ; he comes home to his village with an accumulation of 40 /. in his pocket, the parish in the interval having kept his wife and children, and there being an honest labourer in the parish who has the same number of children and a wife, but who has not been able to accumulate a farthing ; what would be the effect upon the other persons who had not committed crime? — It would have a bad effect, in my opinion. 1531. Then would not the system which you propose equally have a bad -effect, only modified in degree? — No. 1532. How do you distinguish between them? — Because I consider that the t( st which a man would have to go through on my system would prove him a reformed man, which I believe no prison treatment can possibly do. 1533. I am not speaking of whether a man is reformed or not, but I am asking you as to the effect which it will have upon other people who have not committed crime at all, in seeing a man who has been a criminal, though reformed, in a better position than they can hold who have never committed any crime? — That man would have suffered so much penalty before, that I do not fist.'cy the effect would be injurious. 1.534. Do you think that the effect upon other people who do not know what he has siifft-red, but merely see him come out with a sum of money in his pocket, will not be injurious? — I think not, because they all know what lie has suffered. 1 think there are none amongst whom he would go but he would tell what he had suffered during the first portion of his imprisonment. 1.535. Do you think that unskilled lalwurers wlio are struggling hard for existence, knowing that a man receives rations and clothes and lodging more than they can command for themselves, will have an idea that he has suffered very severely when he comes out at the end with 15^. in his pocket? — I think that any of those labourers would be very sorry to place themselves in his posi- tion if they traced the thing through, and saw the penal establishment at work, and what this man goes through before he earns any money. 153O. They are not able to see the penal establishment? — No, but they hear. 1537. They hear that he receives a certain amount of food, which in the average is more than they can get; they know that he has good and warm clothes, and they know that he has a good building to live in ; do you think that the effect may not be prejudicial in their minds at seeing this man come home with a sum of money in his pocket larger than they could have obtained for themselves? — No ; because I think at the time that they hear of his having warm clothing and rations, they hear that at the commencement of his punish- ment he undergoes nine months' separate imprisonment in a cell, where the depressing influences, I think, will counterbalance any warm clothing and rations «hich come afterwards. I consider that the first portion of the punish- ment should be made so deterring, that there would be no fear of any improper effect being created outside by it. 1538. You think that in the case of Bermuda the 50l. would be injurious? — Especially if it is given with sentences, as I have a return here, of a man just arrived having committed murder, and discharged with 42/. in his pocket. I say such an effect must be very bad in the neighbourhood where that, man is discharged. 1.539. Have you ever had any personal experience in neighbourhoods where men have so come back ? — Yes, I have. 0.42. T 3 1540. And 150 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE Capt. JF. Cr»/?on. 1,540- And you have no douht found that it has led to an opinion that the — man, instead ot having been punished, has been very well circumstanced ? — Some •26 May 1856. years ago I recollect bad effects from the system of transportation more than any- thing el*e, and from tlie circumstances under which men have gone to the colonies. I think that has had a great effect upon the people at home, for convicts have written to say, that after arriving they have received their liberty, and are getting on well, and making money ; that I have known repeatedly to have a very bad effect at home. 1.541. Have you known yourself an instance where a man has comeback into a country village with 40/. in his pocket, what the effect of that has been? —No. 1.542. You can well conceive what it would be ? — I can well conceive it with- out knowing it ; it must be most injurious. 1.543. If you were told by a person who had had such a case under his know- ledge, you would well believe that it might be injurious to the other people in that village? — Most injurious. 1.544. Then the fact of a man coming back with 15^., instead of 40Z., would be injurious in a less degree at all events? — It would be injurious in a less degree, with the system which is now established in the prisons ; the men must have some inducement to conduct themselves properly. The great thing, in my opinion, would be to make that inducement as small as possible in the way of payment, whilst they are in the penal parts of the prisons, and after- wards I would oidy take the lowest scale tliat they pay either at Bermuda or in Western Australia, in order not to send them out with too much money in their pockets. 1545. With a choice of difficulties, you think it would be, on the whole, less injurious to give a man that inducement to good conduct in prison than to remit a part of the sentence under the ticket-of-leave system ? — Most certainly. 1.546. It is a choice of difficulties in anyway? — I do not anticipate any diflSculties in the arranuement which I have proposed, so that I can hardly term it a choice of difficulties. 1547. Do you think that there might be no injurious effect, in any degree, upon parties who have not committed crime ? — 1 think not, provided the pri- soners pass through these establishments direct from a prison. J. 548. Chainna/i.'] Have you any further information to give, or suggestions to make to the Committee with respect to the subject of their present inquiry r — I have. 1.549. Will you be so good as to proceed ? — It is with regard to the class of criminals that are sent to the colonies. I had just commenced by saying, that I never inspected a prison without large numbers of the prisoners wishing to be sent to the colonies ; and 1 want to show that, so far from transportation having a deterring effect with regard to them, they treat it as a boon ; and if they treat it as a boon, it is a question whether it might not be taken into consideration that it should be really made so, and that we should send our selected men to the only colony which is left to us. 15.50. Western Australia? — W^estern Australia; and I believe, by so doing, we should do justice to the colonists, and at the same time ease ourselves of the very class of men who, although they have not committed the gravest crimes, are the most troublesome class to us, from a want of employment in this country. Such a man would be likely to relapse into crime, perhaps, in this country, though he would, in a new field in a colony, and with plenty of labour, be a reformed man ; I believe that we might make even the small opening left us in Western Australia a very important element of reformation, both as regards our prison discipline and the ultimate reformation of the men. 1.551. Do you believe that by that means also you could induce the inhabitants of Western Australia to take a larger number? — Not only Western Australia, but there is a field beyond that. Many prisoners who have been sent to Western Australia have already moved on to other parts of Australia. It has been found difficult fur Western Australia to absorb beyond a certain number. I believe that from time to time these men would remove to other localities. I do not think that Western Australia can absorb very many at present, but it could of course employ more of this class than it could of any other you sent. Western Australia has many situations now held by convicts; it seems therefore that selected men would be the best to send there ; I allude to police constables' ap- pointments, SELECT COMMITTEE ON TRANSPORTATION. 151 pointments, and many others, at 4s. and 05. a day. It would be important for Capt. W.Crqfton>. us to make known in our prisons that well-conducted men would be eligible for these sort of ap|)ointmenis ; some have 2s. a day, otlicrs 3s., others 4s. This 26 May 1856. would be a sufficient stimulus, added to what I have said, to induce good be- haviour in the prisons, in my opinion. I have made a little calculation to show how I ])ropose to carry it out. With regard to the Irish convicts, we discharge about 800 annually ; roughly, at the present moment (and I have calculated roughly only, because it is impossible to do it otherwise), I could only find about 75 per cent, that would be, in my opinion, fit to enter the establishments of ■which I have been speaking. I think we may educate and train up more, but at the present moment I would say 75 per cent. ; that would give 600 to pass, as it were, through these establishments. Western Australia can absorb ; absorb is not the name for it, because it absorbs only at a very heavy expense on the part of the Government; however, Western Australia can find employment for from 600 to 800. 1552. Mr. Henley^ Annually? — Annually. 1553. Mr. Adderley.'\ Is that the Government of Western Australia, or the the colony ? — The Government of Western Australia. 1.5.54. Not the free settlers? — The colony is the Government; it has all been at the expense of the Government; it is the same thing. Giving England her proportionate share of sending to Western Australia, it woidd leave us about 200 whom we might annually depend upon to deport (I will not say transport) to Australia, and which I should propose doing, at the same time th;it others go into these ditierent establishments, selecting men for good conduct, irrespectively of length of sentences, excepting for grave crimes. 1.555. ChalrmanJ] Would those whom you sent to Australia be altogether selected men ? — Selected men, the same as for these establishments; they should have the first choice. 1556. Selected upon the principle you have just mentioned r~Yes, for good conduct. There would then remain 400 Mell-conducted men who had been tested to be provided for otherwise ; 200, I should think it would be fair to assume, would colonise as free men at the termination of their sentences; and 200 there would be no possible difficulty in absorbing in the community at home annually, if the public had an opportunity of seeing their reformation thorouiihly tested. We should have no difficulty, I am fully persuaded, in having 500 or 600 absorbed by this test. That still leaves us out of the 800, 200 men whom I shall not class as well-couducted prisoners ; that is the 25 per cent, that would never puss through these establishments ; men who have committed very grave crimes, and those whose prison character is bad ; they must be provided for, and I should propose that a ditierent system altogether should be laid out for them. We have Bermuda and Gibraltar, and I should propose that such men should be placed in those establishments, and in our own penal establishments ; that they should be worked there until the end of their sentences, and when discharged, noted to the police of their localities ; there need be no delicacy in it. 1 have done that in Irehmd with regard to those who have been discharged, and who have not been thought fit to go to these establishments. It is noted, to the police that such men should be watched. 1557. What sort of instructions have been given to the police? — If such a man has been discharged to his locality with every professed intention on his part to go on in the same course of crime again, the police have been informed that he intends so doing. Tlure could be no possible compunction in notifying that to the jiolice. 1.558. Is a kind of circular addressed to the police, or how do you give them the information ?— A confidential letter is sent to the head of the constabulary. 1550. Do you give the locahty to which you suppose the man has gone? — The locality to which 1 know he has gone, because I pay his fare to that place, and it is notified to the head of the constabulary tiiat such a man has gone there with the professed intention of carrying on his career of crime. In the case of such a man, I have no compunction in marking him ; but J should have the greatest in the case of a man who I believed was a reformed character. Of course, in sending these men who have committed grave crimes, and these ill-conducted prisoners, to Bermuda, the system must be altered as to gratuities. We can have no men discharged with 40/. or 30/., or else the penal element at once disappears. 0.4-2. T4 1560. AVould 152 ^J1NUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE CapuW.CroJion. i.l<'0. Would yoii, with regard to tli is class, have any gratuities ? — 1 would not; a man ?houkl have no gratuity unless his conduct showed that lie de- 2G May i8«;6. served it. if,6i. Mr. Heiilei/.] The result of" that arrangement wonld be, that all the men who had conunitted grave ottences, or the men who had not committed grave otl'ences, but were unielormed, would be let loose in this country ^^ithout any means of subsistence, and with no protection, except <;iving notice to tii'i police? — I think that the men wlio have I)een convicled of grave crimes are very few. Last year our proportion Mas only 33 for transportation; in England, Scotland, and Ireland together I think the number was 330. llie grave crimes are very lew, and tiiey are not generally committed by the nidst destitute men. 15G2. If I understand you rightly, the proportion of :20u our of 800 is tliu number which you give as being unreformed, and men who have committed grave crimes? — Unreformed, ill conducted, and men who have committed gravecrimes. I5G;3. Then the result would be, that those unrerornieil chaiacters, persons who had committed grave crimes, would be let loose at the end of their period of imprisonment, without any mone}' in their pockeis, to get on as well as they might in the community? — Yes; they have alriMidy i)ecn so for years; and, in addition, they have had others mixed with them whom you would now filter, and reform, and send elsewhere, where they can do well. I do not see that the difliculty is increased by discharging unreformed men in this country ; they have been already discharged from time to time at the termination of their sentences. I5t)4. Have no means of alleviating or of improving that state of things occurred to you ? — Yes. I bilieve, as I stated at first, that though I compute 25 per cent, of these men as not now being fit to go into these establishments, that nund^er "would, through educational progress and other means, be gradually lessened. What I am going to saj^ is of course mere conjecture, but I do not believe that ultimately, perhaps, 10 would be found, where there are now 30 or 40, who would fail if we educate them properly. 156.5. \^ hatever the number might be when lessened by improved education, have you still found any means by which that number might be provided for other than by sending them loose upon society here? — I believe it to be the best plan to retain them in our own country, because we have the means ol! watching them and rendering them powerless with a proper system of police. I believe that there is no country like our own for dealing with such men ; I think any spot allocated for tliat purjiose would end in a sort of Norfolk Island again; it would be of no possible advantage. I believe that if we cannot manage those characters with our good police system throughout the country, the}' cannot be managed elsewhere, but I do not anticipate that they would be any troid)le to us. I believe the most troublesome class to us and to the police, are those very youg men that I speak of, whom 1 would send to the colonies, and who are reforniable and reclaimable ; they are the bulk of our criminals, because we have now 430 sentenced 10 four years' penal servitude, where there are only 33 sentenced to transportation, and if we can deal with that mass, we solve mo^t of our dilficulties so far as troubles are concerned at home ; and I believe that we can deal with that mass, namely, those witii short sentences, in a way that would be satisfactory as to reforming the men, by taking them away from this country, and their evil associates, and placing them where they would be well received, and in circumstances which would tend to their well-doing. 1,56b. Chairman.~\ What is the system which you contemplate with regard to the treatment of female prisoners towards the end of their sentences "i* — Female prisoners are a very large number w^ith us in Ireland, I regret to say. 1.567. Do you find that a very difficult part of the subject to deal with? — I feel it a difficult part, but I do not think the difhculty is at all insuperable. 1.568. Will you state what you propose in that respect? — The great difficulty with them of course was, to obtain employment for tliem on discharge; because althou<^h people will employ men, they are very careful how they will take women into their employment, into their establishments and houses. There- fore, first of all they must earn a character for themselves, and be placed in a position to procure eiuplovment ; and the only means of doing this at all, that we sav., \va3 in Protestant and Roman-catholic refuges. Of course the great bulk of our female criminals are Roman Catholics ; we have now placed several in refuges. 1569. All SELECT COMMITTEE ON TRANSPORTATION. 153 1569. All those refuges, I suppose, utp entirely supported by voluntary contri- Capt. fV.Cro/ion. butious ? — They are so supported ; Ijiit the Government pay for the women at the same rate as they pay at Red Hiil for juveniles, which is 5^. a week; and it is 26 May 18561 the business of the patronesses of the institutions (and they are doing so) to train these persons, give them liberty of action, the same as we do with the men, and to procure them situations. I believe it is the only way that they can be worked into the community. The patronesses desire to have corresponding refuges in Western Australia, and are, I hear, trying to get them up now. 1,570. How long have these refuges been established with you?- They have been established for some time, but with us the system has only commenced six weeks. Tiiere has been a Protestant refuge, to which there lias been a grant from the State of 50 Z. a year for the last 15 or 16 years, but there have been no prisoners placed there until recently. 1 57 1. What is your system with regard to the females at the convict esta- blishments as to a ticket of leave? — We give a female a ticket of licence to be in a specified refuge ; we arrange with the establishment about her '-'oino- there, and if she misconducts herself, she comes back to prison. At the refu"-e there is a farm, where there is dairying and poultry, in addition to other things which they have been taught in the prison ; the object is to teach them industrial employment as much as possible. Of course this prepares them for getting some situations outside. 1572. You say there is a ticket of leave ; is it one of the express conditions, that if the woman misbehaves herself she shall come back to prison ? — Yes. 1573. Have you the form of one of those tickets of leave ? — Not with me; but the form as to misconduct at the back of the usual tickets of licence would enable you to do this; the licence ticket only limits the place where the person can be at large to the refuge. 1574. Have you any further information to give us on that point? — I have no further information, excepting that I see that the Governor of Western Australia, the clergymen, and others, complain of the great paucity of females there as being perfectly demoralising to the well-being of the male prisoners who are sent out ; they complain that female emigrants do not come; and it does appear to rae to be worthy of consideration whether with regard to women thoroughly reformed something could not be done in sending them to refuo-es in Western Australia, and introducing them there. One of tlie refuges in Ireland has a correspondence in Western Australia, and it appears desirable to consider whether these women could not be profitably worked off" there ; because althouo-Ji there are objections (and there has been on the part of the Governor of Western Australia objections), to receive female convicts, preferring emigrants, yet if those female convicts are reformed, or supposed to be reformed, by certain tests before they go, it might remove these objections. 1,575. Mr. Heyiley.'] What proportion of the female convicts are married women ? — A very large number. I can scarcely be accurate enough to give you the proportion of them ; but our class is not the same as in England ; the majority of them are not prostitutes, as in England. 1576. You say the greater proportion are married? — A large proportion; not the greater proportion. 1,577. ^o 'ar 'IS that went, it would not obviate the difficulty as to women in Western Australia? — Even if we could send 25 per cent, of those annuallv dis- charged to Western Australia, it w'ould be the greatest possible boon. 1578. What is the practice in those intermediate establishments which you have been speaking of with reference to persons having access or communica- tion with their families? — They do not have any communication with their families. 1,579. That rule is kept up as strictly as in the prison ?— Yes. If a special apphcation was made by any member of the family coming, there would be no objection to it, nor is there with the well-conducted men in the prison. 1580. But it is not the system ? — It is not the system. 1581. Chainnan.] Is there any further information which you wish to give us with regard to the system established in Ireland? — I think not. 1.582. You are aware that one subject of our inquiry here is as to the special provisions of the Act of the 16 &; 17 Vict. c. 99 ?— I am. 1583- Y'our attention, I suppose, has been particularly directed to that Act since it came into operation ? — Particularly. 0-4-'. U ' 1584. From 154 MINUTF.S OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE C&pt. fF. Crofton. 1584. From vour observation and experience, are you al^lc to suggest to this Committee anything wiiich you wouhl consider an improvement in the pro- 26 May 1856. visions of that Act ; anything which it is desirable to alter? — Yes. 1585. Be so kind as to slate it? — I should prefer the establishment of the system I have described at the termination of the sentences to a ticket of licence. 1586. Besides that, is there anything which occurs to you as a desirable alter- ation r — From my reading of this Act, I understand that there is now power to send prisoners under penal servitude sentences to Western Australia ; if not, I should suggest an alteration in that respect. But uiy reading of the Gth section is, that we may now send penal servitude [irisoners there, and if that be true, if I am correct in supposing so, there would be no necessity for an alteration in that particular. I see it is stated, " or in any other prison in the United King- dom, or in any part of Her Majesty's dominions beyond the seas, or in any port or harbour thereof." 1,587. These are the words, are they not: " Every person who under this Act shall be sentenced or ordered to be kept in penal servitude, may, during the term of the sentence or order, be confined in any such prison or place of confinement in any part of the United Kingdom, or in any river, port, or harbour of the United Kingdom, in which persons under sentence or order of transportation may now by law be confined, or in any other prison in the United Kingdom, or in any part of Her Majesty's dominions beyond the seas, or in any port or harbour thereof, as one of Her Majesty's Principal Secretaries of State may from time to time direct;" those are the words of which you are speaking? — -Yes; and 1 apprehend from that, tiiat there would he no difficulty in sending penal servitude prisoners to Western Australia; if it is not so, I should suggest an alteration to include those sentences, for the reasons which I have already <:iven. 1588. Have you any other suggestion to make with regard to the Act? — I have no other. 1589. Mr. Jil. Mibics.] Have you any English criminals under your care? — One or two ; I think very few. 1,590. Do you think, from your experience of the national character in Ireland, that tiiere are reasons why the system you have mentioned, to which you have devoted so much attention, is more applicable to the Irish than to the English character ? — I think not. 1,501. You do not think that the susceptibility of the Irish would be a gnmnd of distinction r — Not at all. 1 see the same susceptibility in England, where it has been tried in reformatory institutions ; I see the same success attending in- stitutions where it has been tried in England. 1592. What reformatory institutions for adults have we ever had in England of the same sort? — Two or three. There is one now in Westminster ; a great many English and Irish criminals have passed through that, and they have done so after they have left our convict establishments. 1593. Are any large number of the convicts teetotallers? — I have never asked them : they are teetotallers while we have them. 1594. Is it your impression that they are so? — I could not say so, for I am not aware. I have never asked the question. 1,595. Do you think it would be possible to apply this reformator\' system, connected with full employment, to so large a body of persons without giving offence as to the competition with free labour ? — I would employ them on the works which the public service requires, such as fortifications, &c. I do not see why it should give ofience to free labour. 1596. I do not understand that in these milder reformatory establishments to which vou allude you confine yourself to employment on public works ? — No. 1 refer to industrial works besides. The able-bodied would be employed on forti- fications, but the industrial works in the prisons might go on in the same way as they do now in prisons. 1597. And you think that so large an amount of industrial employment as you would give under this reformatory system would not come into dangerous competition with free labour? — No, certainly not ; we should not give a much larger employment in industrial occupation than now. Work is slill carried on in prisons. The principle is the same ; it would only be that the men would have greater liberty of action whilst there ; we should not much increase the work. 1598. Would SELECT COMMITTEE ON TRANSPORTATION. 155 1508. Would you not contemplate some portion of agricultural employment? Capt. W. Cro/ton, — I would rather not go to tiiat until tlie other Mas exhausted, because I think - there is pleiity of other work which presses. Agriculture would be very good s6 May 1856. ■work afterwards. 1599. Do you not tliiiik that for a reformatory discipline the agricultural employment has great advantages over tie other? — It decidedly has verv great advantages ; but I look upon it that there are public works to be performed, fortificatiun-, and so on, and I can see no reason why they should not be as good evidence of reformation as agriculture. 1600. Quarrying, and so on r — The heavier work I would reserve for the more penal establishments, but earthworks. Sec, I would employ them in. 1601. Would it be practicable to have this milder reformatory system going on in the same locality with the severer one ? — It would be practicable, but I think not desirable. 1602. Would there not be a difficulty then in finding persons to do the severer labour of public works in the same locality with persons under the refor- matory system ; would it not be difficult to have the harder portion of public work going on at the same time, and in the same place, with the reforma- tory system ? — I do not contemplate any application of these small numbers to these kind of arduous and troublesome works which you speak of, with regard to quarrying or anything of the sort; I should contemplate small earthworks and fortifications of the kind not now taken by prison authorities, and not requiring expensive prison construction and a large establishment. Upon a small work, which would require 50. 100, or 150 men, I should propose that they should be allocated where they were required, in the sort of tents I have spoken of, and the work, I think, could not be too hard for them ; it would not be harder than for any other men who contracted to perform the work. 1603. Do you tiiink that public opinion would understand that these persons who were employed under this milder discipline had before been subjected to a harder one, and that therefore there would be no reason for supposing that there ■was a premium upon vice ? — I believe that the public thoroughly understand, that before they come to that part of their treatment, they have undergone a very severe system of discipline : I belive that is generally known. I have not the least fear that it would be any premium to crime. ] 604. Would you in any case contemplate placing persons, under any cir- cumstances, in these, what I would call, reformatory establishments, who had not been subjected to a penal discipline? — No. I would have every man subject to a strict penal course of discipline before he is placed in one of these establish- ments, or 1 should very much apprehend that it would become a premium to crime. 1605. But you think that if it was distinctly understood that no prisoner was there who had not been subjected to a previous penal discipline, there would be no fear of any misunderstanding on the part of the public ? — There would be no fear whatever, in my opinion. 1606. And you have found from your experience, that that is not the case in Ireland at the present moment? — As yet, not at all; there is no feeling of the kind whatever. 1607. Mr. B. Denison.'] Have you had sufficient experience of the fteling ol the public with respect to men who have been let out on tickets of leave- — The experience of course has been limited ; I said, " as yet." i6u8. How long have you been in the habit of issuing the tickets of leave? — For the last four months. 1609. Is it not impossible for you to form any calculation as to the opinion of the public of the system, as regards these tickets of leave r — It is impossible to give an opinion of much weight ; I only slated " as yet.'" 1610. I think you said that in the course of a short time you would have about 700 men on this system ; in two months? — Yes. 1611. Divided into classes of 50 each? — Yes; excepting in three cases, in two of which there will be 85 in each, and in the other 60. 1612. Have you any protection or security for these men not running away, excepting the moral control which you have over them ; there are two or three officers, you said r — There is nothing but the moral control, and the fact that these men are nearly at the expiration of their sentences, with good characters, self-respect restored, and certain earnings accumulating for them. 0.42. u 2 1613. How 156 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE €api. W.Crofion. 1613. How long liave tliey on the average been under penal servitude before you let them out upon this system ? — It would depend on the term which 26 May 1856. they had to serve; a 10-years' transportation man would be taken at the term of four years ; a seven-years'-trau^portation man would be taken at tliree years. 1614. Even this system of locating the prisoners in different parts of Ireland is only an experiment? — It is only an experiment. 1615. And the experiment is, in getting these iron buildings, and placing them in different parts of Ireland, with two or three oflScers to each r — Yes, where the public service requires them. 1616. As yet you have found no difficulty in that respect? — None whatever ; I explained that the men would be filtered, as it were, into these iron buildings, from where they are now phiced at the forts, which will be intermediate between the prisons and these buildings again. 1617. Do vou consider that their being located in these houses is the most mild system of dealing with tliem ? — Not only mild, but efficient for what we have in hand, which is, to find out the character of every man, by individua- lising, in order to endeavour to reform him. 1618. It is the least penal towards them ? — It is the least penal towards them also. But I should not do it from that motive so much as from wishing to as- certain the characters of the men. 1619. Are they usually employed in agricultural pursuits in these smaller establishments, so far as you have experience ? — We have not employed them in agricultural pursuits at all ; we shall do so in about a month or six weeks, because we are laying out a farm at the juvenile prison which we are about building. Then we shall begin with the agricultural pursuits with them, but we have had no experience of it ; all that we have tried as yet is on fortifi- cations at the mouth of Cork Harbour, and the industrial establishment which I have spoken of. 1620. To what particular employment do you intend to appropriate them in these smaller establishments? — They will be wherever the public service requires the labour. In the first instance it will be in erecting the juvenile prison for ourselves, and after that, when the War Department requires certain small fortifi- cations to be erected, which they would otherwise do by contract, they will send for 100 or 150 or 50 convicts, and we can have one or two moveable tents placed for them where the work is required. 1621. Then, so far, you intend to appropriate them to the use of the Govern- ment ? — Certainly, and only the Government at present. 1622. You would thereby avoid the possibility of their coming in contact with the public? — Yes; it would be only for the purposes of the public service. 1623. Assuming that there are no Government works to which to appropriate them, and for the moment applying your attention to England, if you are com- petent to give an opinion, how do you think that it would work where labour is more plentiful in some instances than employment? — There appear to me to be ncarlv the same facilities in England for the application of a small amount of labour in that way as tlieie aie in Ireland. It would apply to the contracts taken by the War Department in England for certain small batteries and fortifi- cations to be erected in one place and another all round the country ; and I believe that iron buildings could be erected to accommodate men in England as well as in Ireland. I allude to works which do not now come under the con- vict department at all. 1624. Are vou of opinion that the employment of these men should not interfere with the free labour of the population ? — I do not believe that t need do so. 1625. My question was, should it be a condition that it ought not to do so ? — I would not make a condition of the kind. 1626. If it did interfere with the free labour of the country, would it not be an inconvenience to the free labour of the c untry ? — I think not ; not a greater inconvenience than at present, l)ecause one must l)ear in mind that at the period at which I place men in these establishments, in former days they would have been discharged, either at home or in the colonies, or probably would have been sent out on tickets of leave to compete with free labour ; and our hope should be in their competing with free labour ; because if a man has not employ- ment. SELECT COMMITTEE ON TRANSPORTATION. 157 ment, where is his reformation ? Therefore he ought to be competing with free Capt. W. Ciqflon. labour if he intends to reform. 1627. Mt. Adderley.'\ Do you consider that such institutions as you have 26 AJaj 1856. been giving us an account of, viz., the intermediate establishments, would be better in the hands of private individuals than in the hands of Government ? — I have the highest opinion of voluntary efforts, but I think, they would still have so much to do in taking men from these establishments, that I believe the Government may well carry it to the termination which I have described, and still leave plenty for voluntary associations to do. I believe that societies of patronage must help us from the prisons ; and that they will do so in Ireland, and that phortlv, I am convinced. 1628. Is there not some fear that so long as such institutions are conducted by Government, they must retain a penal character ? — They will do so slightly ; but they need do so only slightly, in my opiniou. 1629. As you have described tliem, I should be afraid that the public would see little difference between them and the public works' stage of punishment ? — I think people will see a great deal of difference, because these men would be let out ; they would have liberty of action, which they cannot possibly have in a public works' prison ; they are watched by officers there, and they cannot possibly do wrong without they are very bad indeed. 1630. Do you consider it possible, in the eyes of the public at large, to dis- tinguish this treatment altogether from a penal treatment r — I think it perfectly possible, and highly probable ; and as far as ray experience in this short time has been concerned with regard to our own prisoners, I feel that the prejudices against employing them are rapidly giving way, and that many persons now come and offer to employ men whom we can recommend, and look at the registers : I am of opinion that feeling will increase. 1631. Have you any satisfactory proof as yet that the public will be more willing to employ men from such institutions than from prisons? — On the small scale which I can lay before you, I have most decidedly, because I do not know any person who would come to a prison and take a man out; for the public do not believe the test of a man's character in prison to be suthcient to warrant his being employed. 1632. Have you applications? — Constant applications ; because this establish- ment is open to the public in a great measure; many attend the lectures ; inspectors of the National Board lecture on certain evenings, and the public come in, and see exactly the system that is pursued. There is no difficulty ; in fact, several persons have come aud offered men employment at the institution. ^6'^'^. Do persons coming to such institutions to offer employment ask for any certificate of character? — They look at the register. 1634. Is there any individual or officer whose function it is to give under his own hand such certificates of character? — Yes: it is the registrar's business to do so ; it is the business of every officer connected with the establishmeni to be an agent outside ; and when he hears of a situation, to mention it to those men, and try and get them employment. 1635. Is tiiere any combination whatever of private assistance in such insti- tutions? — There is none whatever. 1636. Neither in the wavof contribution, nor in the way of visitim; f — Neither in the way ot contribution, nor in the way of visiting; but I hope that soon there will be in visiting. 1637. Have you ever considered whether it might be an addition to your plan to get private sureties for good conduct in the case of men gaining employ- ment from such institutions ? — I have considered it, and of course it would be a great advantage. 1638. You have not adopted any such plan at present? — No. 1639. Have you any intention of doing so? — Not at present; but our system is in its infancy. The principle appears to me to be excessivdv sound. 1640. Do you consider that such institutions will give i'acilitics to men emigrating from them to other parts of the world ? — Decidedly. 1641. Not only to the colonies, but to anv foreign countries ? — To anv foreign countries that they may choose to go to; and from the system pursued in our institutions, the men will really understand what they are about when they go there. 1642-3. Do you consider that the emigration of discharged prisoners, thiough 0.42. u 3 the 158 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE Capt. ;r. Croflon. the process of such an institution, would get over some of the difficulties in the way of transportation ? — I do, most decidcilly. uci May i85(). 1644. Do you not think tliat it woidd do even more so if such institutions were in the luiuds of private individuals? — I think it might. 1645. Mr. J. ITi/iine.] I think you stated that you were conversant with the Encjlish system carried on i;i the convict prisons before your appointment to Ireland? — I did not speak particularly of the convict prisons, but of the prisons generally, and tlio r.fornialories in England. I know sufficiently of the convict establishments to answer any question respecting them. 1646. Sufficiently to contrast the working in the two countries? — I am perfectly conversant with the convict system pursued in England. 1647. Do you find any greater difficulty in carrying out the penal part of the sentence in Ireland, especially the separate portion of the sentence, on account of the greater tendency to scrofulous complaints in Ireland than in England ? — That was one great difficulty at the commencement; but in consequence of very careful watching, and leaving the j)ower of giving exercise to Dr. Rind, who thoroughly understands the subject, we were enabled to treat scrofulous patients, with very few exceptions indeed, in the same way as others. 1648. At first did you find a great miinv prisoners break down in their health before the expiration of their period of separate confinement? — A great many did so before our Board was formed, but I have not found so since, by giving an unlimited power of exercise}. 1649. -^^^ y*^" aware that a number have been annually discharged, absolutely on account of their breaking down in health ? — A number have been so dis- charged, not from that cause, not from having broken down from separate imprisonment. 16.50. Not in the convict prisons? — Not in the convict prisons in Ireland; I am not aware of any case of a prisoners health having broken down, and of the prisoner's having been discharged in consequence. 1651. Do you know that some years ago, in consequence of the crowded state of the convict prisons, a large number were discharged from being invalided? — Yes ; the effects of the famine, &c., had caused an accumulation of this kind of prisoners who were scrofulous, and it was formerly the case that prisoners were subjected to 12 months' and 15 and 18 months' separate imprisonment ; but the maximum term is now nine months, and if a man wants one or two hours' exercise, and tiie medical officer considers it proper that he should have it, he has it ; that is the regular system which now goes throughout the whole establishment. 1652. They were then neither fit for the hard description of labour on the public works nor the confinement, as then administered : — No. 1653. Do you consider tliat a large number of those so discharged, though unfit for imprisonment in confinement or for the harder labour at public works, Would be fit for agricultural emplovment, which would be lighter and also be carried on in the open air ? — There is no doubt of that. In fact, we have proved it, because we have made an invalid depot in a healthy place, and these men, who would have been quite unfit for the heavy works, are now doing well, and their health is very much better. 1654. Is there any establishment in Ireland similar to the one at Dartmoor, where agricidtural employment is carried on to a large extent r — There is not ; we wished that it should be adopted with regard to Philipstown ; but there has been a great difficulty in procuring land, the prices asked for land have been so exorbitant. It has, however, been the object to have an invalid prison there, and we hope yet to carry out agricultural employment. 1655. Then you would recommend such an establishment, if it could be carried out? — Certainly I should. 1(356. Would the inclosing it with a sufficient wall for safety add consider- ably to the expense ? — Yes ; and I do not think it would be necessary so to inclose it. 16.57. If an island could be obtained off the coast, fitted for agricultural employment, do you think that it would be desir.ible, with the assistance of such houses as you have recommended? — No; I think the more you have the prisoners in view the better. I do not like islands for prisoners. The more you see of them, either in their penal state, or in their reformed state, the better. 1658. The SELECT COMMITTEE ON TRANSPORTATION. 159 1658. The only reason for suggesting au island was the expense of inclosuie, Capt. W.OofioH hut you think that the inclosure might be obviated ? — I do not think an iiicio- sure would be required if tlie prison officers do their dutv. 26 Alav i8^6 1659. Do you tiiink such an establishment could be made self-supporting? — Whilst the prisoners are in a penal state, decidedly not. In the state which I have described, the intermediate stale, I have the strongest hopes that it will be nearly so ; as far as able-bodied men are concerned, quite so, because we shall have less expense of supervision and less expense of prison construction. )66o. You have stated that a good many of the prisoners h;ive broken dov.n in health in Mouetjoy Prison ; are vou satisfied with the ventilation of that prison at present ? — The medical officer is quite satisfied with it. But the reason which T gave f )r the people breaking down in health was, that they were formerly there for a considerable period, sometimes 18 months, and so on. I do not find it the case now. i6(ii. Do you think that it is quite unconnected with the ventilation of the prison? — Yes ; nothing of the sort occurs now, nor has done so since the formation of our Board. 1662. Whatever may be the difficulties as to getting rid of males, you would agree tliat they are much greater with regard to females r — The difficulty is greater, but not insuperable, in my opinion. I have the greatest hopes of success. 1663. Do you think, from the fact of the Irish female convicts not being so universally ot the prostitute class, as in England, that the facility in getting rid of them would be greater ? — I think it would be greater, and I have the greatest hopes of the reformation of large numbers of them. 1664.. Mr. S. Fitziierald.'] In reference to wliat the eft'ect mav be of criminals being discharged with a considerable sum of money in their possession, a ques- tion has been put to you bv the right honourable gentleman the Member for Oxfordshire, as to what, in your opinion, would be the eft'ect upon the honest part of the population of seeing that a criminal at the end of his sentence comes out of |)rison in possession of a sum of money such as thev never could hope to obtain ; and you say that you do not think that upon the honest part of the population the effect would be injurious? — I am speaking with reference only to one portion, with reference to men fiom Bermuda, and with large earnings, such as 40/. ; that is open, decidedly, to very serious objection. 166.5. But with regard to the smaller amounts which you contemplate, you think it would not be injurious?— I think it would not be injurious under the circumstances I have mentioned. 1666. What do you think will be the effect upon the criminal population, those already engaged in the pursuit of crime, if they see men come out at the end of their sentences possessing even such a sum of money as you contemplate? — I think that those criminals know pretty well the ordeal that these men have to go through first, and therefore I should not apprehend any ill effects with regard to them ; they know the ordeal, and that there must be good conduct hefore the men can even earn the money. 1667. But we know that every-day crimes are committed, even for the temptation of a few shillings, by those who are well aware uf the penalty which they run the risk of? — Yes. ]568. Do not you think that persons who now commit crime, well knowing the risk which they run, for the sake of a few shillings, will nut consider the sentence a very deterrins: one when they see that those who have undergone it come out of prison in the possession of a very considerable sum of money ? — I think not, for this reason, that when they come out they say, " I was obliged to undergo a penal sentence before I could ever hope to get this money ; and if I had not been well conducted, I should have come out without any money at all, after a long penal sentence." Therefore I do not think the effect would be that which is suggested in the question. 1 lJ6g. Does not your experience lead you to the knowledge of this fact, that among the criminal population there is a verv general belief that so long as they conduct tliemselves well in prison, and conform to prison rules, and so forth, they obtain a character which will enable them to procure those advantages? — Decidedly ; that is why I would make a difference between men discharged from prison absolutely with large sums of monev in their hands and others who go through the ttst, which I maintain is a test as to whether they are well con- ducted or not. 0.42. u 4 1670. Should i6o MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE Capt. ly. Crofion. 1670. Should you object to paying over the whole amount of the earnings of the prisoner to the credit of the Government who maintains him ? — I prefer the afi May 1856. other course, because it gives a man a chance. I am only speaking of men whom we assume to be reformed, as having passed tlirough certain tests. 1671. You arc speaking of 75 per cent, of your prisoners? — Yes, I say tliat it would bo the means of giving them money to emigrate, and to get into a field where they could carry out their intentions of reformation ; that is why 1 think it so desirable that they should have it ; and I perfectly believe, that the more thev understand about colonies, and the more the lectures in these institutions impart to them information as to which of the colonies they should go to, and what they should do there, the greater will be the desire of emigration : that is my inducement principally to give them their earnings. 1672. 'ihe inducement, in your view, must be a pecuniary one? — It must be a pecuniary one, because that will alone aid them to get to the colonics ; that will be better than any other system of the Government taking a more prominent part in sending them to the colonies. A man upon my plan emigrates under a system which gives him the produce of his industry ; lie is a free agent, can take his own passage, or go where he likes. 1673. -^"^ you do not think that the prospect of regaining a character and obtaining employment here would be a sufficient inducement ; l)ut you think that it is necessary to add to that a pecuniary motive, and the ability, by the man's own conduct, to procure the pecuniary means of emigrating": — I am afraid the stimulus without it would be insufficient. The Right Honourable Earl Grey, attending by permission of the House of Lords ; Examined. The Right Hon. 1674. Chairman.'] I believe your Lordship is acquainted with the subject of Earl Grey. the inquiry in which this Committee are now engaged ; we have had referred to us the provisions and the operation of the Act of 16 & 17 Vict., intituled, " An Act to substitute, in certain cases, other Punishment in lieu of Transporta- tion"?— Yes. J 67.5. Did your Lordship fill the office of Secretary of State for the Colonies from July 1846 to the beginning of 1852 ? — Yes. 1676. What colonies were open for the reception of convicts from this country when you came into office in July 1846? — At that time, properly speaking. New South AA'ales was the only colony really open, because Mr. Gladstone had just come to a decision to suspend for a certain time the transportation to Van Diemen's Land ; Bermuda and Gibraltar I do not consider as colonies receiving transported convicts, as they have eventually to be removed from those places. 1677. Subsequently, transportation to Van Diemen's Land was resumed? — It was. 1678. Were important changes made on your Lordship's accession to office, in the year 1846, in the system of carrying out sentences of transportation r — There was a very important change. 1679. Will you have the goodness to state to the Committee what that was ? — The main principle of that chanize was to adopt as a rule the infliction of the strictly penal part of the sentence in this country, instead of iu the colonies. It was considered that transportation virtually resolved itself into penal labour, under the control of tiie Crown, and subsequently passing a certain period at large, but under qualified restraint, in some colony. It appeared to us at that time that the great advantage of the colonies was for receiving con- victs at the end of the more strictly penal part of the sentence ; that the penal part of the sentence would be much better inflicted at home, because it would be more directly under the superintendence of the Government, and the punish- ment could be carried on at a smaller expense ; but we thought that tiie colonies possessed advantages for receiving convicts after they were discharged from penal labour, which could not be found in tliis country. The system was there- fore adopted of making convicts pass through a rejiular scale of punishment, which was to begin by a certain period, according to the sentence, of separate imprisonment, followed bv associated labour on public works at home, and then tickets of leave in the colonies, and subsequently conditional pardons in the colonies. 1680. Was SELECT COMMITTEE OX TRANSPORTATION. 161 1680. Was the ticket of leave introduced then for the first time ? — No ; it had The Right Hoii. been in operation many years in the penal colonies. Earl Grey. 1681. What was the effect of this system, so long as your Lordship had an ~~ T~. opportunity of observing it? — As far as I had an opportunity of observing it, it ' X j • seemed to me to work remarkably well; there was no doubt that the hope of being discharged with a ticket of leave at the expiration of a certain period of their sentence from this country was a most powerful inducement with convicts to good conduct in the penal establishments at home ; the hope of tliat relaxation of their punishment was, in fact, tiie main spring of the whole system of penal labour here, and it was the means by which the great improvement from the old state of the hulks had been mainly effected. It is also certain tliat convicts who liad passed through a certain period of separate imprisonment, followed by associated labour on a good system of public works at liome, were found, when they went to the colonies, most valuable labourers, and a very large proportion of them turned out, I believe, quite as good emigrants as the majority of those who go out voluntarily. I have seen many letters from employers in the colonies, givinj: a decided preference to the men who went out under these regulations over those sent out as free emigrants. 1682. I believe during the period we have spoken of, difficulties arose in the colonies themselves, which created an obstacle to the continuance of the practice of transportation r — Yes. 1683. Without going into detail here, I believe I am right in stating that the facts connected with that subject are detailed in your Lordship's work, intituled, "The Colonial Policy of Lord John Russell's Administration " ? — They are. 1684. Do you remember the passing of the Act to which our attention is now particularly directed ? — I remember the passing of that Act ; I was present when the second reading was discussed in the House of Lords, hut I had left London Avhen it went through its farther stages. 168.5. Did your Lordship take part in the discussion ?— Yes, on the second reading in the House of Lords. 1686. One subject of our inquiry here, is into the provisions of this Act ; are there any of them to which you have turned your attention with the view of suggesting any improvement in the Act ? — There is one part of that Act to which I expressed a very strong objection at the time of the second reading in the House of Lords, and as to which, experience has confirmed the oi)jection which I then expressed, — I mean that part of it wiiich reduces the length of sentences of penal servitude as compared to the former sentences of trans- portation. 1687. That is the 4th section of the Act, I believe? — The 4th section of the Act. I stated at the time, and I still think that the abolition of the sentence of transportation was no reason at all for abridging the sentences, because under the former system it never «as intended that men should remain in penal labour the whole time for which they were sentenced. By law, they might remain in penal labour either at home or in the colonies for that whole period. But, as I have said, it was the main instrument of an improved system of discipline, that the Crown should have the power of rerainino; convicts in custody for a much longer period than they were usually actually to be kept so. The Act made a mistake, as I think, in reducing the periods for which the Crown had the control of convicts to the time whicii practically they generally passed in custody, and the effect of this has been to deprive Government of the means which thev before possessed of giving a stinuilus to good conduct and to industry, l>y the prospect of an early relaxation of the sentence. I may say that as punishment lormerly consisted, first, of penal lal)0ur, and ultimately of banishment, wiien you took away the banishment, instead of being a reason for diminishing the length of the sentence, it was rather a reason for increasing it ; because, though it is very true that a large number of convicts in the penal establish- ments are verj- anxious to be sent to the colonies, that anxiety, so far as I believe, arises entirely from their great wish to lie relieved from the severe punishment which they are undergoing in these establishments; but the banish- ment in itself is by no means an incunsideiable part of the punishment, which is proved by the fact that it was of every -day experitnce that the most pressing applications were made from the colonies for converting the conditional pardons which were usually given, into free pardons, which would enable persons to come home. 0.42. X 16S8. Dees i62 MINUTES OF EVIDENXE TAKEN BEFORE THE The Right Hon. ](>8S. Does it appear to your Lordship that the graduation of the scale of Earl Grey. sentences, as regards the term of penal servitude, is capable of improvement? — I tliink that a very simple improvement might be made in the Act, and I am a6 .May 185G. convinced a very great one, by merely declaring that tiie sentences should be of the same length as they formerly were for transportation ; and tiiat the Crown should have the power, during the period of tliose sentences, either of retaining the convicts in penal establishments at home, or in those places out of the country where tliere are penal establishments, or else, if it thouiiht fit, of discharging them with letters of licence or tickets of leave, either at home or abroad. If that regulation were adopted, it is clear that the Crown might give tickets of leave to as many convicts as room could be found for in the colonies, at an earlier period than they would get tickets of leave at home; and they would be very glad to accept it upon those conditions. But the main object of that change would be to provide for whtt I thiuk a very serious danger of the present system, the ruin of the discipline and of the efficiency of our present penal establi-hments at home. E.Yperience, both in this country and in every foreign country, proves that it is impossible to maintain the discipline of a penal establishment, and enforce industry on the part of convicts, by the mere fear of punishment. Tiie hulks formerly in this country, the galleys in France, the establishments at Norfolk Island, Morcton Bay, and Port Macquarry, and all the establishments that have been tried upon this principle, have uniformly failed ; convicts have become uniformly reckless, hardened, and impossible to be managed ; most frightful murders of their keepers have occurred ; and criminals, when they have been ultimately taken from establishments of this kind, have been found much worse than when they went into them. I believe, according to the principles of human nature, that must always be the case. Captain Ma- conochie recommended, on a consideration of this fact, that the punishment of convicts should always depend exclusively upon their own conduct. He proposed an elaborate system of determining the length of the sentences by certain marks which were to be earned, so that the convicts might know tliat every day's good conduct or bad conduct made a difference in the period of their punishment. That svstem was tried at Norfolk Island ; it failed, and I think might have been expected to fail, because the principle, although substantially a good one, was perhaps carried too far, and not accompanied with the necessary severity of discipline. But the system adopted in 1847 and 1848 was a modification of that system. It still preserved the principle of making the length of the punish- ment depend mainly upon the conduct of the men, but with that there was a certain severity of punishment which could not under any circumstances be escaped. Now it was found that with the hope of being early discharged from prison, convicts did perform their tasks with singular industry and with good conduct; I do not know whether it has been brought before the attention of this Committee, but I remember when I was at Dartmoor, sawyer convicts were pointed out to me who were actually doing a greater amount of labour than free labourers employed at the same place, being entirely stimulated to this exertion bj' the hopes of being speedily discharged. Under the law as it now stands, the conduct of the convict has comparative!)' little influence upon the length of his punishment, and the consequence is, that you have not the same powerful motive brought to bear upon his mind is a stimulus to industry. And I find in the Report which has just been laid before Parliament of the Com- missioners of -Management of Convict Prisons for the last year, that the directors of convict prisons mention the fact that this change is already beginning to pro- duce a very injurious eff"ect upon the conduct of the men, thougli of course hitherto that has been to a very slight extent compared to what it will ultimately be, because the greater proportion of the convicts in these establishments still consists of persons wlio are sentenced under the old law, over whom therefore the Crown possesses complete power, and who may be expected to behave well. When the majority shall corne to consist of persons sentenced under the Act of 1853, I beiieve that the managers of those prisons will be totally deprived of the necessary means of keeping up order and enforcing industry, and that the prisons mav be expected to go back very much to the condition of the hulks of former days. i68g. Tlian which, I believe, nothing could very well be worse? — Nothing could possibly be worse. 1690. Is there auy other section of the Act to which \'Our Lordship thinks our attention might be drawn with the view of suggesting any alteration .- — Perhaps it SELECT COMMITTEE ON TRANSPORTATION. 163 it applies principally to this section; but I think that if you were to revert to The Right Hon. the old length of sentences, it would be highly desirable that the Crown should Earl Grey. be empowered, as a relaxation, to send, during the continuance of the sentence, any convict to a colony where tliere might be the means of receiving him as the "^^ ^^"7 1856, holder of a ticket of leave. In that manner you would make sending to the colony, what it practically has been ever t^ince 1847, a relaxation, as far as it goes, of the original sentence. I think it would be very desirable that if sentences were again to be passed of their former length, tlie judges should be made clearly to understand that those sentences were never intended to take eHect except iu cases of gross misconduct, afti r sentence, on the part of tiie convict ; that they wtre the maximum of punishment which could be inflicted under the sentence, and not the i)uni.shnient whicii should usually be inflicted, because I am afraid the judges have not been very accurately informed frequently of the manner in which the sentences which they have inflicted have been carried into effect, and from not knowing that, they have made some mistakes in the sentences they have passed, and in the remarks which they have addressed to convicts at the time of sentencing them. 1691. Does any suggestion of an alteration occur to your Lordship with regard to the section about tickets of leave, the ninth section ? One of the witnesses has suggested that it might be advisable to alter tlie terms of the licence prescribed by this section, so as to make it a licence going beyond the L'nited Kingdom and the Channel Islands. The wcids in the ninth section limit it to tlie United Kingdom and the Channel Islands. It has heen suggested that it might be advantageous to have a power, at all events, to grant a licence for a larger range than that. I do not know whether your attention has been given to that point r — My attention has not been previously directed to the particular wording of tiie section ; but I was quite aware that the licences to be at large were confined to tlie United Kingdom and the Channel Islands. I think it would be a very great improvement that tliat section should be altered, so that this licence might apply either to the United Kingdom, the Channel Islands, or to any part of Her Majesty's dominions to which the holders of these licences migiit be conveniently sent. I believe there are some places in addition to Western Australia to which con- victs might be sent ; and I would observe, that the effect of prolonging the periods of sentence, combined with an alteration of this clause, would have the advantage of enabling the Government to send to Western Australia as many convicts as it should be found capable of receiving. Since I have been in this room, I have had an opportunity of glancing over some of the evidence which has been previously taken by the Committee, and I observe that there were only 400 convicts sentenced to transportation in the year 1854, and that, deducting from that number those who were unfit, from physical or other reasons, to be sent to Western Australia, it did not leave as many as might be advantageously received there. That being the case, it seems very desirable that the law sliould be so modified that ilie Crown might always have the power of sending to Western Australia, or to other Colonies, as many convicts who had gone throuo-h the penal part of their sentence as could be conveniently sent there, since I believe that, as a general rule, the prospects of convicts ultimately reforming are very much greater in a colony than they ever can be at home. » 1692. Your Lordship was understood to state just now that the law was imperative as to the time for which a convict was to be imprisoned ; was that the meaning which your Lordship intended to convey ? — 1 must have expressed myself inaccurately if I was so understood ; I am quite aware that the law does" not limit the constitutional power of the Crown to grant a pardon at any period ; l)ut what I meant was this, thsit when the ordinary sentence of seven years' transporta- tion is reduced to four years, that period is so short, that the Crown has not au adequate means of holding out to the convict a relaxation of his sentence as a motive to good conduct, because if that sentence is to be reduced to one-half by good conduct, which was somewhere about the former rule, two years' penal servitude would obviously be a very inadequate punishment for many of the offences lor which sentences of seven years' transportation were formerly passed ; so that, practically, the law does deprive the Crown of that power Which it possessed under the old state of the law. 1693. An opinion has been expressed here by more than one witness, that it would be desirable to make a great effort to resume the practice of transportation 0.42. X 2 upon J 64 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE The R;j;lii Hon. upon the scale on wliich it formerly existed. Is your Lordship of opinion that Kail Grey. |.jj^j would be practicable ? — I doubt whether it would be practicable at present. 8 r ^^y belief is, tliat if the system of penal discipline is properly managed in this * J 5 ■ country, and if those who have gone through tliat system are sent witii proper advantages to the colonies, the present prejudice against receiving those men will, in many of the colonies, speedily abate ; that the great value of their labour will be recognised, and that the means of rerriving them will, therefore, be increased. I believe, also, that even in Western Australia, which is at present the only colony to which they can be sent, the means of receiving convicts may be made by a proper policy gradually to increase ; because experience has proved that in the case both of V^aii Dicmen's Land and ofNew Soutii Wales their facilities for receiving convicts with advantage continued to increase as the settlements became larger and more wealthy, and as there were a greater number of free settlers ca|)able of receiving them. When Lord Bathurst first began the system of encouraging settlers to take convicts into their service, the number that could be employed in New South Wales was very small ; subsequently it became very great indeed, and at the time when the system of assignment was souiewliat precipitately abolished, the demand for the services of convicts as assigned servants in New South Wales was infinitely beyond what the Government could supply, although transportation was at that time carried on upon a very large scale. 1694. That system of assignment, though attended with some disadvantages in your opinion, was attended with considi^able advantages ? — I think it was attended with considerable advantages, and with some great disadvan- tages. I have never doubted that it was proper to abolish it, but I think that the abolition was hastily accomplished, and without those precautions with which it should have been accompanied. 1695. Would it be practicable, in your judgment, to establish a new penal colony: — I have no doubt it would be practicable, if the country was pre- pared, to incur tiie very great expense of doing so. But though it might be practicable, I am very strongly persuaded that it would be highly inexpedient. 1696. Will you favour us shortly with the grounds upon which you arrive at that conclusion ? — The grounds upon which I arrive at that conclusion are these : As I have said, I do not think the colonies by any means a good place for the strictlv penal part of the sentence passed upon convicts. All experience is against them in that respect. You have much greater difficuliy in getting trust- worthy officers to watch over the convicts at a distance than at home. Abuses may go on for very long periods in those situations which you cannot discover. Therefore, so far as the mere strictly penal part of the sentence is concerned, my belief is, that convicts cannot be too closely under the immediate superintendence of the Government; and they are as completely separated from the rest of the population at Pentonville and at Portland as they could be at Norfolk Island. There is no communication whatever between the convicts in these establishments and the free population. But it is when they come out of these establishments, when thev ^re to be once more their own masters, that the colonies possess so great a superiority to this country for receiving convicts. That superiorit}'^, however, entirely depends upon the demand for labour which exists in the colonies, and the facility of finding them employment under free masters. Now in an absolutely new colony no such means whatever would exist. If the}' are to be employed, it must be entirely by the Government. There is also no free society to neutralise the effects of the association of convicts : the difficulty and expense, therefore, of employing tiiese men, and the moral disadvantages, would he very great indeed. On the ether hand, in an existing colony (fake Western Australia, for instance) there is no doubt that the demand for the labour of discharged convicts can, in a territory of that kind, be increased precisely in proportion to the amount of expenditure which the Government thinks fit to incur, and that expenditure woidd be infinitely less if you were to work upon the foundation of the existing establishuient in Western Australia than if you were to found any new colony. If a settlement was to be formed, for instance, in the northern part of the continent of Australia, you would have everything to do. All the enormous expense of first landing men on a desolate shore would have to be incurred, and, after all, no employment would exist for con- victs, except such as would be afforded either by the Government or by the settlers who might be tempted to go out. Now in Western Australia, if it is thought fit to incur the expense of carrying a road or a railroad down to King George's SELECT COMMITTEE ON TRANSPORTATION. 165 George's Sound, where there is an excellent harbour, and in a very good situa- The Right Hon. tion for communicating with this country, if you by other public works extend ^'*'"' ^'<^i/' the amount of territory available as a settlement, and offer advantages 10 settlers going out, no doubt you can extend very greatly the demand for convict labour; ^^ ^^J '^56. and you would do this much more readily than you could hope to do it in any new settlement. In the same manner, at the Falkland Islands and other places you might, by incurring a certain expenditure, afford employment for con- victsj and all these places would present much greater advantages than any place that you could find in a country where there is no establishment already formed. 1697. The only other question with which I have to trouble your Lordship is, whether there is any further information or suggestion wiiicli you think useful to the Committee with reference to the subject of this inquiry, with which vou would favour us ? — The only further suggestion which I have to make is, that I think it is very desirable indeed to extend as far as possible the means of sending convicts abroad, and that with that view it would be well worth the while of the Government to make inquiry as to tlie possibility of opening one or more other existing colonies for the reception of convicts. There is one place where I certainly think a moderate number might bo sent, I mean the Falkland Islands. It is well known that the population of those islands is at present exceedingly small; the establishment is so small, that it is scarcely worth while keeping it up on the present scale unless it is to be extended. But the Falkland Islands are most favourably situated for a place for all ships engaged in the trade, either with Australia or with any part of the western coast of South America, to call in their way iiome. The ships by calling there for refreshments, or for any repairs of which they may stand in need, save, according to the information given tome by a captain in the navy, at least from 10 days to a fortnight, as compared to the loss of time by going to Rio, which is now the only other harbour practically available either ibr repairs or for refreshment to ships coming home upon that long voyage. It is well known that the passage round Cape Horn is a very stormy one ; ships unfortunately incur a great deal of damage, and it would be of great value to our commerce that there should be a station where repairs could be executed. During the time I was in office I had it seriously in contemplation to propose a dry dock in the Falkland Islands, where there is a most excellent harbour, and I believe a certain number of convicts with tickets of leave might be usefully employed in forming an establish- ment of that kind. Settlers would be attracted by the trade which would spring up, if this place were gradually to form a port of call on their return vovage for the large number of vessels now engaged in the trade with Australia, and the formation of such an establishment would be a great advantage to our commerce generally. 1698. Is there any other place with regard to which you think a similar suggestion might be made ? — There is no other place which I should like to name, because tlie colonists are so jealous upon this subject : from the discussions of late years, it is so necessary to be cautious not to excite any apprehension among them, that I think it is much better not publicly to name any particular place. If inquiries were cautiously set on foot by the Govern- ment, and an offer was made to send a very limited number of persons to some particular places, in the first instance, as an experiment, to some of the colonies where the waiit of labour is the greatest, I should not despair that an opening might in that manner be found for some of our convicis, and when an opening was once made, it would have a tendency gradually to extend itself, i6gg. Sir J. Pakiiigton.] Your Lordship has stated that at the period when you became Secretary of Stale, in 1846, the system of transportation to Van Diemen's Land had been suspended by Mr. Gladstone ? — Perhaps, more accu- rately speaking, the orders for suspending it had been given. I do not think that they had been actually carried into effect ; but the decision to suspend it had been come to and declared. 1700. How soon afterwards was transportation to Van Diemen's Land re- sumed? — I have not the returns before meat this moment, but I think they would show that a small number were sent to Van Diemen's Land at no very great distance of time afterwards. I forget exactly in what year it was. 1701. Excepting that interval which arose from particular causes, I apprehend the system has been, Irom 1841 down to the termination of transportation, to send all transported convicts, even those for seven years, to the colonies .' — Not 0.42. X 3 quite i66 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE Tlie Right Hon. quite iiniformily ; a certain number were still sent to the hulks at home, and Earl Grey. also to Dt'iiiiiida anil Gibraltar, and brought home at the end of their sentence, a() May 18 -(\ ""''^ 1847 and 1848; the rule was intended to be adopted in 1847 and 1848, that every convict, without exception, sentenced to transportation, who was not physically unfit for it, should ultimately be sent out with a ticket of leave ; but, as you are aware, the systmi was not sutficiently long in operation to allow that to tell. Transportation virtually ceased before many of the convicts who were sentenced after that period became eligible for tickets of leave. 1 702. During the latter years of your Lordship's admiuistration of the Colonial Department, were any seven years' convicts detained in England, excepting those who were cf.nsidered i>hysically unfit to go abroad ?— Under the rules established in 1847 and 1848, no seven years' convicts sentenced after that time, or at least a very small number of seven years' convicts sentenced after that time, would have been eligible for tickets of leave before I went out of office, or, in fact, even before the system was altered in 1852 and 1853. 1703. If I remember riglitly, it was shortly after your Lordship assumed the office of Secretary of State that that svstem was arranged between yourself and Sir George Gi'ey, as Secretary of State for the Home Department, which was acted upon, as to the termination of transportation ; I mean that system under which the severer part of the punishment was undergone at home, and the transportation portion was only carried into eti'ect with tickets of leave? — Yes. 1704. How soon after your Lordship took office did that system actually com- mence r — I am afraid I cannot speak to that positively from recollection. 1705. I believe it was shortly? — It was at a very earlv period. I cannot exactly remember when it took efl'ect, but it liegan at a very early period. At tlie same time the system was modified in its progress, because at first the plan was to send convicts abroad after they had passed the severer part of tlieir sen- tence at home, as what were at that time called exiles, subject to no regulations or restraint whatever. Experience proved that the exiles did not behave so well upon the whole as men sent out with tickets of leave, and that the change was too sudden from the strict control to which they had been subject in penal estab- lishments to being entirely their own masters in the colonies. The exiles were induced to stay ubout the towns, and to get habits of diinking. Resumed habits of drinking, of course, led again to offences ; and it was discovered to be much better that they should be sent out with tickets of leave, by which the Govern- ment was enabled to send them at once to the more remote parts of the country, where they could obtain employment under the flock masters in a manner which did not expose them to the same temptations to which they would have been liable at Sydney or Melbourne. 1706. It was found, practically, that during the earlier periods of lit)erty some check was required r — It was found much better that some such check should be imposed. 1707. Is your Lordship of opinion that that principle would hold equally good whether the convict is released in a colonv or in the mother country ? — I was inclined to think so, and I believe it was partly upon a suggestion which I threw out on the second reading of this Bill in the House of Lords that that clause was subsequently introduced, for allowing them to be discharged in this country with licences to be at large. 5708. It has been explained to this Committee by the official witnesses who have been examined, that the present practice of the Government is to grant tickets of leave only to those persons wlio were under sentence of transportation when the Act of 1853 was passed, and that, except in special and exceptional cases, no tickets of leave would be granted to prisoners sentenced to penal servi- tude at home ; mav I ask your Lordship whether you do not think it would be better and more prudent to act still upon that system of tickets of leave, even with regard to that portion of our convicts who are sentenced to penal servitude at home ? — I think there is, in the first place, some difficulty about it, from the short periods of the sentences of penal servitude. The whole efficiency of the ticket of leave depends upon there being a considerable portion of the sentence of the convict unexpired at the time he receives it; therefore, with these short sen- tences of four years, I doubt whether that would be as effective as it ought to be; but besides that, I think there is some reason to apprehend that, in the different circumstances of this country from those of the colonies, the fact of holding a licence or a ticket of leave may prcfcnt some additional difficulties in the way of SELECT COMMITTEE ON TRANSPORTATION. 167 of a man who is discharged from a penal establishment, and who wishes to live The Right Hon. honestly. There is a strong prejudice against persons in that situation in this "• country ; they become necessarily more known than they would be if they were !"„ allowed freely to mix with the population, and I think it requires farther ^ ay 5 • experience to prove whether it is desirable to use those tickets of leave or not. I should be sorrv at once to abandon the experiment ; but, on the other hand, I should be equally sorry to express a confident opinion that it would succeed. I think it requires farther trial. 1709. Are you aware of the statistics which have been given to this Com- mittee, and which I tliink have also been stated in Parliament, with regard to the actual proportion of ticket-of-leave men up to tliis time who have come again within the grasp of the law ? — I have seen it, and I think, upon the whole, it is tolerably favourable ; but, as I have said before, 1 think that that by no means gives you anything like a fair view of what the ultimate working of the system will be. The new law has been in force less than three years, and those persons holding tickets of leave were all sentenced under the former law, when the Crown had greater [)Ower over them; and yet, U'ltwithstanding that, I observe from some of tlie evidence which I have now looked over, that the pro- portion of revocation of licences has been gradually increasing as the system has gone on longer, and that now there is a much larger proportion of those who have received these licences. I find that Captain Wiiitt}' states, " It is singular to observe the regularity of increase which takes place in the per-centage each quarter on tlie aggregate number. There have been ten quarters now to the 31st of ^larch since the Act came into operation, and the per-centage has increased at the rate very nearly of three-tenths per cent, in each quarter ; at the latest period the per-centage of revocations of licences on public w(jrks was S/jths per cent., Avhich on the ten quarters makes about three-tenths as the average of each quarter ; and in tracing them up individually, it has gone on at that progress during the whole of the ten quarters; so that one might almost calculate from that, at any number of quarters in advance of the present time, what the per-centage of the revocations would be." Then there follows a table, which shows the progressive increase in the number of revocations. 1710. We have been led to suppose, by the evidence which we have received, that, on the gener.d average of the three years which have elapsed, about 92 per cent, of tliose who have received licences have remained free from any further stain or imputation on their character ; would not your Lordshi|) con- sider that (making full allowance for what you have so justly stated as to the experiment being a short one) an encourauing fact with regard to the system of tickets of leave even at home? — I am inclined to think it is. 1711. Does it not lead you to this conclusion, that it would be wise and prudent, assuming that our convicts are to remain in this country, so to extend the sentences as to leave a margin within which tickets of leave raiffht be o-ranted, rather than setting the men at large at once, in this country ? — I think that is of the very greatest importance. It is of importance not only with a view to having greater control over these men when they are discliarged, but it is still more important, in order that a proper reformatory system may be applied to them while they are under punishment, so as to make them more likely to behave well when they are dischnrged. I look with the greatest apprehension at the consequences of the present system, wliich affords no adequate motive to good conduct to the men while they are in custody, and I am persuaded that when this law has been in force a little longer you will have a very dangerous and a very hardened class of men coming out of your penal establishments unless some change is made. I feel that so strongly, that even with regard to those who have been sentenced under the present law, I thiuk it would be a less inconvenience to let them know that they might, by good conduct, obtain discharge from these estabhshments at the expiration of somewhere about halt even their present short sentences, than to continue them in those establishments without any adequate motive to good conduct and to industry. 1712. You thiisk it essential to the success of a system of penal servitude at home that the element of hope should be introduced? — I think it is absolutely essential, and that there is no other means of making use of that stimulus of hope to be couipared, in efficiency or in safety, to tiiatof siiorteuiug the sentence of tiie convict in proportion to his conduct; any other relaxation which vou could give him, the hope of money which he is to receive upon his discharge, or a less 0.42. X 4 severe i68 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE The Right Hon. severe System before Iiis discharge; any of those advantages are comparatively Earl Grey. very inetticicnt, and attended with various inconveniences ; particularly acciimu- lating his earnings, hecause the placing of a large sum of money in tlie hands 2() May 1856. of a convict at his discharge is a great temptation, and is attended with much inconvenience. 1713. Your Lordsliip has expressed an opinion this morning that the Act of 1853 ought to be so altered as to make the periods of penal servitude co-extensive Avitii the periods of transportation for which respectively they have been sub- stituted ? — Yes. 1714. In expressing that opinion, am I right in presuming that you did not contemplate that in any case the convict should be kept in actual penal servi- tude at home for the whole of the period of sentence? — In no case but that of a man whose conduct was reckless and hardened during his imprisonment. I think it should be clearly understood that in case of such misconduct under punisliment, the wliole period would be passed in punishment. The efficiency of it depends upon the power of so continuing it. 1715. Let me take the shortest and l)y far the most common sentence of transportation, viz., seven years, and assume the case in either event, either of a sentence of seven years' transportation or of a sentence of seven years' penal servitude, and a misconducted man, I apprehend that even in the case of a mis- conducted man sentenced to seven years' transportation, he would have gone abroad for a period of that sentence ? — Are you speaking of the old law ? 1716. I am comparing the old law with the new; would not the sentence in that event on a misconducted man, of penal servitude carried out at home for seven years, be a very much severer sentence than the sentence of seven years' transj)ortation, a portion at least of which would have been carried out in a colony under a ticket of leave ? — But under the system of transportation as it latterly existed (I mean sul)sequently to 1847), a misconducted man never would have gone to the colonies; he would have passed his whole time in penal servitude here, because he would never have become eligible for a ticket of leave, and at the end of the seven years the Crown would have had no farther power over him. Practically, I believe those cases never would have arisen, because the general body of convicts are so anxious to obtain their tickets of leave, that they exercise a sort of police over each other, and one or two reckless and bad men can hardly set themselves against the whole body of those with whom they are working. 1717. Is your Lordship aware whether such a case has ever occurred as a seven years' transport liaving been detained, either for the whole or for as long a period of his sentence as the lapse of time has permitted, upon public works in this country?- — -There have been repeated cases under the old system of trans- portation in which a convict sentenced to transportation never got discharged from penal labour at all, because if his conduct was reckless in the colony, he incurred a fresh sentence there ; liis ticket of leave was recalled, and he got sent to the iron gang, wiiicli they had atone time, the road gang, or to Norfolk Island. There were repeated instances of men who never got discharged from penal labour either at home or abroad, and the penal labour in the colony was much more severe than the penal labour here. The condition of a convict at Norfolk Island was out of all comparison worse than the condition of any convict at Port- land or Dartmoor. 1718. However, I understand tliat, in recommending that seven years' penal servitude should be the sentence of all convicts where seven years' transportation would have been formerly the sentence, your Lordship does not contemplate that the persons so sentenced should actually serve out seven years of labour on public works in this country' — I should revert precisely to the scale which was adopted in 1847 and 1848, whicli was framed with very great care. The periods- at which men would obtain tickets of leave were there defined according to the degree of their good conduct. 1 should revert to tliat scale, only so far modifying it as to say, that when a ticket of leave could not be granted in the colony, it should be deferred a short time, in consideration ot its being granted at home instead of in the colony. Tliat was frequently done even under the system of 1847 and 1848, because in introducing the plan there were at first many diffi- culties to be encountered in finding sufficient means of disposing of all the con- victs, and that was partly met by allowing some to be discliarged at home after rather SELECT COMMITTEE ON TRANSPORTATION. 169 rather a longer period of associated labour than they would have had to qualify The Right Hon. them for discharge in the colonies. ^"' ^^^y- 1719. I do not quite understand your Lordship's meaning in the expression ""TJ ~~ which you used in your last answer, viz., that in the case of a man detained at ay 5 • home the ticket of leave should be deferred ; will you be kind enough to explain that ? — I would say this, that if you tooic three years or three-and-a-half years as the minimum period for the discharge with a ticket of leave of a man under a seven years' sentence in the colony, I think it would be very fair if he was not exposed to the pain of banisliment, that he should not get his ticket of leave until after four years at home. 1720. And then that he should have a ticket of leave at home? — And that he should then have a ticket of leave at home. It would be regulated according to the means which you would have of disposing of the men abroad. I should send as large a proportion abroad as I could find the means of satisfactorily disposing of, but the lest I should discharge here, either with tickets of leave or simply with pardons in consequence of their conduct. 1721. Then I believe I rightly collect your Lordship's wishes and intentions to be, tliat hereafter we should revert as nearly as possible, in fact, to the system which has been prevailing up to the change of the law made in 1853, namely, that sentences should remain what they were; that a given period, not differing much from what it formerly was, should be passed in penal servitude on public works, and then that the men should serve out the remaining balance of their sentences in a colony if possible, and if not possible in a colony, that they should be allowed the benefit of tickets of leave at home? — That is precisely my mean- ing, with this addition, that I would put an end to the sentence of transportation altogether. I think there is great inconvenience in the present system while you have very limited means ol' transporting convicts ; the .Judges pass sentences upon a certain number of persons of transportation for 14 years or for life ; the Judges have no means whatever of knowing what the capabilities of receiving these convicts are in the colony ; therefore the inconvenience must be incurred, eithec that the Judges will pass a sentence which cannot be carried into effect in some instances, or they will run the risk of not passing a sentence of transport- ation upon a sufficient number of convicts to enable the Crown to meet the demand for convict labour which actually exists in the colony. If the sentences were in all cases so many years of penal labour, with the understanding that that period was to be reduced upon the principle which I have already described, then the Secretary of State for the Colonics, who has the best means of judging what the condition of the labour market in the colonies is, would be able to say annually what proportion of convicts could be received, and in that manner there would be no difficulty in making the utmost use which you can of those facilities of disposing of convicts which may exist from time to time. 1722. I believe practically inconvenience has arisen from the very cause to which your Lordship refers, viz., that the Judges being in ignorance of the state of the colonies, have not passed sentences of transportation in this country to such an extent as might well have been accommodated in the colony ; but am I to understand your Lordship to express the opinion, that while you would send convicts abroad, so far as it is possible to accommodate them in distant colonies, you would still give up the sentence of transportation at home, and only pass in all cases sentences of jienal servitude ? — That is what I mean, considering the sending to the colony with a ticket; of leave an indulgence for good conduct, which the convict would be very glad to obtain in preference to remaining in a penal establishment. 1723. I cannot doubt that your Lordship would concur in what I believe to be a most general o[)inion, viz., that looking to the administration of the Criminal Law, it is most essential that, so iar as possible, sentences should be certain in their language ; would not the system which you recommend be open to the objection of there being uncertainty of what the effect of the sentence would be "r — It might be to a certain degree open to that objection, but I think that the system would be one less open to that objection than the present system, or than any other system, unless you abandon transportation altogether, because the sentence would in all cases be penal servitude for a given time, with a general rule, tiiat that penal servitude was susceptible of mitigation, according to a well-understood and well-defined rule, that mitigation taking place cither at home or in the colonies according to circumstances. 0.42. Y 1724. I understand 170 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE The Right Hon. 17:24. I understand your Lordsliip's suj^gcstion to be, that in the court Earl Grey. passing' sentcnoo, where the law awards penal servitude for crimes the sentence should always be penal servitude, and that then it should be a matter of coni- ■2G May 1856, pi^.tt; uncertainty whether the persons so sentenced were to go to a distant colony, as it is now a matter of uncertainty whether they sludl work out their sentences at Portland or Dartmoor on the one hand, or on the other hand at Bermuda or Gibraltar ? — I think it should be matter of certainty that they would work out the penal part of their sentences at one of our great establish- ments, Portland, Bermuda, (jibraltar, or Dartmoor, and that if they conducted themselves well they should have a ticket of leave at the expiration of some- where about half the original sentence. The only thing which would be uncertain would be, w hether that ticket of leave would be granted a few months earlier in the colony, or a few months later at home. 17-25. Would there not be this additional uncertainty, that, in the event of penal servitude at home, almost every man would return into society in this country ; in the event of penal servitude in the colony, the case would be exactly reversed, and hardly any man would return to society in this country ; would not this fact of itself establish the element of uncertainty, and affect the deterring results of sentences? — It would not, in the operation of the law, prevent thorn returning to society in this country. After the ex|)iration of a man's sentence he might return. The probability is, that lie would Hud it more advantageous for him to remain in the colony after having been there a certain length of time. 1726. But is it not true that the practical result would be such as I have described, founded upon past experience, which tells us that persons who once go abroad as transported convicts rarely do return ? — I think it woidd ; but I am not aware how that could with certainty be avoided, as 1 have said before, unless you could either provide means in the colony for receiving all convicts sentenced to penal servitude, or on the otlier hand, give up altogether the advan- tage of sending abroad a certain jmiporlion, I conceive that it is practically impossible at this moment to provide facilities for receiving all these people abroad ; and on the other hand, I tiiink the advantage of disposing of a certain number of them is so great that it would be highly inexpedient to give up the advantage as regards that number. 1727. Looking to the moral effects produced at home, do you think the difficulty w-ould be at all removed if oiu' courts should in all cases pass sentences of transportation instead of penal servitude, and if then the prisoners should be at the disposal of the Crown, either to go abroad or to Bermuda, or to remain in England, as circumstances might require ? — I think that there would be this objection to it. In the first place, I am afraid that for a considerable time the majority could not be sent abroad, and that the sentence would be very different from wliatit implied. If they are sentenced to penal servitude, the very term implies that it places them at the disposal of the Crown, to be dealt with as the Crown may think fit, and the sentence inflicted would correspond with the sentence pronounced by the Court. But further than that, I think it is highly desirable that transportation as a removal from this country should become actuallv a mitigation of the sentence, and not a serious part of the punishment, and that it should a])pear upon the face of the sentence to be what it really was in fact. Practically, it is not a part of the punishment, but a mitigation of the punishment, and tiierefore the sentence should not imply that that which was a mitigation was necessary to be done. 1728. I think I may say that the theory upon which the Act of Parliament of 1833 was founded, and the theory upon which the criminal law of this country has been since administered, has been, that the sentence of transportation being only for long periods, has been, regarded as a step in the gradation of punish- ments, standing in severity betwecai the capital punishment of tieath and the punishment of penal servitude; I apprehend that your Lordship's wish and iutention is exactly to reverse that theory, and that hereafter the fact of being sent abroad should be regarded rather as a mitigation and a reward for good conduct, than as an aggravation of the punishment .' — I think so ; and I think so for this reason : for punishment I consider the colonics particularly ill adapted ; they are verv well for receiving convicts who are to return into society, but they are not well adapted for receiving those who are still under punishment. Take the case of a man who for an aggravated manslaughter, approaching as nearly as SELECT COMMITTEE ON TRANSPORTATION. 171 as possible to murder, is sentenced to transportation for life ; being also a man of The Kight Hon. general bud character, and of an age or a state of health which renders him unlikely Earl Grey. to be a useful labourer in the colony ; it would be extremely unjust to the colony that that man should at any period of his sentence be sent abroad; however he ^6 May 1856. is to be dealt with, I think he should be in the hands of the Crown at home; he could never be of any use to the colony, and unless convicts are to be of use, I do not think that we ought to send them there ; a man of that kind might properly be kept for a very prolon in what wav can any rule be formed as to who should have a licence to go to a colony and who should have a licence to remain at home, except from the mere accidental circumstances of the home or colonial labour market ? — There would no doubt be considerable difficulty in any rule of that kind ; it could only be done by the Secretary of State from time to time making a regu- 0.42. y 4 lation. J 72 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE The Right Hon. lation, varying the number which should be sent to the colony ; that is the Earl Grey. course wiiich I should propose followiug'. ^'2,'^). It seems tiiai that would introduce a new element of uncertainty, and if sG May 185G. the licence to go to a colony is conjidered as a boon, might it not produce great disaj)pointnient in the minds of prisoners, who by good conduct mic even to the partial resumption of the system of transportation, have expressed the opinion that the demand for convict labour which still exists in "Western Australia, arises only from a desire to promote Government ex2:)enditure ; does your Lordship concur in that opinion, or have you the means of forming an opinion upon that 3ul)ject? — I have known nothing of Western Australia during the last three or four years except i'rom the papers which have been laid before Parliament. I should gather from those that there is still a considerable want oi" labour there, and that lhe\- wish convicts to be sent, not only for the sake (if the expenditure, but also for the sake of the labour. At the same time it is undoubtedly true that in AVcstern Australia, as nearer home, Government expenditure is very popular with those who get the advantages of it. 1771. I understand your Lordship to say, that in resuming transportation in future you would only send convicts to the colonies in cases where there was a specific dtmand for them ? — Except in Western Australia, where you do possess a very complete depot, which has been formed at a very large expense, 1 think that that would be a prudent rule ; but where you have the advantage of that depot 1 think you might safely send to Western Australia a certain number, taking care not to overdo it. 1772. Is your Lordship of opinion that the repugnance which now exists to the reception of convicts in those colonies, which are at present closed against convicts, arises not so much from a dislike to the people themselves- as from the mismanagement, so to speak, of the mode in which they were transported there ? — I think it was originally created by that mismanagement; it certainly did not exist 20 years ago. 1773. Your Lordship reminded us that a complaint was made of something like a breach of faith on the part of this Government in withdrawing convicts some years ago from Van Diemen's Land ? — More from New South \\'ales. 1774. Is the condition of that colony essentially changed since that complaint was made ? — At the time that complaint w'as made, it was founded very much upon putting an end to the system of assignment. In fact, the system of assign- 0.42. Z ment 178 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE The Right Hon. ment was an immense pecuniary advantage to the employers who received the Earl Grey. labourers, and those who lost that advantage complained very loudly. The circumstances of the colony are to a certain extent changed since. Tiie scarcity iG May 185C. of labour is not what it was, but I think that gold has taken more people there than perhaps it has taken away from otiier employments. 1775. ^\v J. Pakington.^ Are you of opinion that if all our convicts hitherto transported were to be punished in this country, and ultimately set at large in this country, they would constitute any very formidable addition to tlie convict population always at large here ? — I know thiii in point of mere numbers the addition would not be so very large; but then I cannot help tiiiukingtliat all the worst offences are included among the sentences of transportation, and you would have a certain number of men of a very dangerous character, who would have a bad influence upon the rest of our convicts in this country, and whose presence would be injurious. 1776. Is it not the fact that in point of numbers they would not add more than about 3 per cent, to the amount of convict population at large in this country ? — I donot remember the per-centage exactly; I know it is not a very large per- centage. 1777. Do you not think that amongst that population so at large, there is a very large proportion of characters quite as desperate and quite as hopeless as would be the case with a considerable number of transports r — That might be the case, particularly if the reformatory system was properly enforced at liome ; and I am willing to hope that, under a proper system, at home the inconveniences might be less serious than I have always anticipated ; at the same time I always have felt that it is a very serious danger. 1778. Are you of opinion that the public alarm upon that subject is at all exaggerated ? — I think, with respect to the holders of tickets of leave, it has been very much exaggerated. M hether the system of tickets of leave is right or wrong, I cannot conceive that there is so much difference between ticket-of-leave holders and those men discharged at the completion of their sentences, as to make the Ibrnier a much more dangerous class. I tliink that is impossible. APPENDIX. SELECT COMMITTEE OX TRANSPORTATION. 179 APPENDIX, Appendix, No. 1. PAPERS delivered in by Horatio Waddington, Esq., 17 April 1856. Appendix, No. i. (A.) GREAT BRITAIN. Number of Convicts Transported from 1848 to 1852, inclusive. MALES. FEMALES. TOTAL. 1848 - - - - - 1849 1850 1851 1852 1,407 1,243 2,105 2,008 2,102 490 1,897 377 1,620 360 2,465 432 2,440 439 , 2,541 Total - - - 8,865 2,098 10,963 Number of Persons Sentenced to Transportation during the same Period. 1848 1849 1850 1851 1852 3,601 3,218 3,176 3,338 2,896 Total 16,229 (B.) GREAT BRITAIN. MALES. FEMALES. TOTAL. Number of Convicts under Sentence of Trnnsportation in Confinement on the 30th September 1853 - 9,370 480 9,850 Males. Females. Total. Transported 1,320 - 1,320 Licensed 4,873 279 5,152 Died 250 20 270 6,44 3 299 6,742 Licenses Revoked - - - _ . 2,927 173 6 3,108 179 Remaining in Confinement - 3,100 187 3,287 0.42. Z 2 i8o APPENDI.X TO REPORT FROM THE (C.) RETURN as to Ordehs of License. t M A L E S. FEMALES. Total of Males and Females whose Licenses have been Revoked. OFFE.N-CES. OFFENCES. ] « c .a o "3 1 o s a a tn < lill bo s J3 O "3 1 Felony. U c ■< Offences against the Game Laws. 'rom the 10th October 1 l«.i3 to the 20ih i ( ,, February 1855, in | ( ^' elusive - - - J 8 30 17 10 3 "~ 1 1 — 1 - - 31 From the 21st February 1 1855 to the nth 1 ,,„ March 1856, inclu- l^ 3 143 48 CO 26 9 5 - 5 2 3 - - 148 eive . . - J Totals - - - 1G2 11 173 C5 70 29 9 6 6 2 4 - - 179 Number reported for Jliscoc duct. No mber A( quitted out of 447 Number of Convicts released on License. reported • MALES. FEMALES. MA LES. FEMj ^LES. MALES. FEMALES Total 4 j= Males c 1 1 o "3 "til c ■§ o "5) c u 9, "3 o "So "a t and Females. j CO K OT H tij m W m H U t/J t- M K H * From the 10th October 1853 39 lb 1 - 56 4 - - - 4 2,205 359 2.564 53 30 83 2,647 i to 20th Feb- ruarv 1855, inclusive. (• From the 21st 2,505 Feb. 1855 319 50 13 9 391 IC 2 1 2 21 1,582 727 2,309 139 57 196 toUthMar. 1856. inclu- sive. 358 66 14 9 447 20 2 1 2 25 3,797 j 1,080 4,873 ! 192 1 87 279 5.152 (D.) ENGLAND AND WALES. Number of Persons Committed for Trial in the Years 1854 and 1855. 1854. 1855. 1. To the Assize Courts ; viz. — Lent Assize _-.-.--- Summer Assize _..---- Winter Assize -------- 2,591 1,748 232 2,346 1,459 740 Decrease, 26 persons ; but any useful comparison is disturbed by the extension of the Winter Circuit from two Counties in 1854, to 22 Counties in 1855. 2. To the Central Criminal Court Decrease, 302 persons, or 20-0 per cent. 4,571 1,512 4,545 1,210 SELECT COMMITTEE ON TRANSPORTATIOX. 181 1854. 1855. 3. To County Quarter Sessions Courts - - - - - Decrease, 1,806 persons, or 12-2 per cent. 4. To the Middlesex Quarter Sessions - - - - - Decrease, 730 persons, or 23 per cent. 5. Recorders' Borough Courts ------ Decrease, 176 persons, or 3"3 per cent. 14,763 3,119 5,394 12,957 2,389 5,173 Total committed for Trial - - - 29,359 26,274 Appendix, No. 1. Decrease, 3,085 persons, or 10'5 per cent. But if allowance is made for 452 persons tried at the Winter Assizes, in 20 countieB, who, under the usual course, would have waited for trial in the following year, the decrease would amount to 3,537 persons, or 12 per cent. (E.) Criminal Justice Act. This statute passed the 14th August 1855. Its operation could, therefore, only affect the commitments tried in that year, during the seven or eight weeks which intervened before the Michaelmas Sessions, during great part of which time the provisions of the statute would not be generally known, except where adjournments of the jNIichaelmas Sessions are held. The only immediate data for estimating the effect of the summary provisions of the statute may be found in the trials at the Central Criminal Court, and at the Middlesex Sessions of the Peace, in the last tliree months of 1854, as compai-ed with 1855. These were — 1854. 1855. Central Criminal Court Middlesex Sessions 399 736 314 419 Total - - 1,135 r33 This would show a decrease of 35 per cent., of which at least 25 per cent, may be attributed to the operation of the Criminal Justice Act. The returns of the proceedings of the police courts of the metropolis are also confirmatory of this. They show the number of convictions under the Act to have been, in 1855, August ---------9 September -------.-95 October -----__-. 141 November --------- 143 December --------- joQ Total - - - 509 (F.) ENGLAND AND WALES. Nc.MBERS of Persons Sentenced to Transportation or Penal Servitude in the Years 1853, 1854, and 1855. 1853. 1854. 1855. Transportation ------ Penal Servitude - - - - - 1,864 504 310 2,108 325 2,048 Total - - 2,368 2,418 2,373 0.42. 23 l82 APPENDIX TO REPORT FROM THE Appendix, No. 3. Appendix, No. 2. PAPERS delivered in by Horatio Waddington, Esq., 21 April 1856. (A.) ENGLAND AND WALES. Number of Persons sentenced to Transportation and Penal SERvrruDE in the Years 1853, 1854, and 1855. 1853. 1854. 1 1855. Transportation Penal Servitude - - 1,864 504 310 2,108 300 1,992 2,368 2,418 2,292 The numbers in 1855 do not include those sentenced in the 20 counties on the Winter Circuit of that year, for which a winter assize had not been held in the preceding years, amounting to 25 transportation, and 56 penal servitude. (B.) RETURN showing the Number of Male and Female Convicts who have been Discharged in Ireland between the 1st of September 1853 and the 10th of April 1856. Male Convicts who have completed Female Convicts who have completed Males and Females. 4 Years out of 7 Years. 6 Yean out of 10 Years. 7i Years out of 15 Years. Total (Males). 4 Years out of 7 Years. 6 Years 7 J Years ^^^^ out of out of CFemalesI 10 Years. 15 Years. [ (.^^^'"^esJ- Gross TotaL 970 177 2 1,149 21 ml nU 21 1,170 The Number of Male Convicts who have been Discharged in Ireland on their return from- Bermuda Gibraltar Government Prisons Office, \ Dublin Castle. J Total - 365 6 371 Walter Crofion, Chairman. SELECT COMMITTEE ON TRANSPORTATION. 183 (C.) NOMINAL RETURN, showing the Number of Male and Female Convicts who haye been Discharged on Tickets of Licence in Ireland, up to the 10th April 1856. The system of discharging CoDvicts on Ticliets of Licence commenced in March 1856. NAME. Date of ConvictioD. CRIME. SENTENCE. Period passed in County or City Gaol. Period passed in Government Prisons. T Pe Sei 1 otal 3 .• No. Separate Con6ne- ment. Association nod ■ved. , u u ° 'i On Public Works. In Trades' Prisons. rS Males : Vrs. Mt/u. Vrt. Mth». Yts. Mtha. Yn. Mtht. Yrs. Mthi. 1 James Lynch 27 June 1851 Burglary 10 years' trans- portation. 2 - - 4 7 4 9 "■ 2 Hugh Mayo 26 June 1852 Larceny 7 ditto 5 - ■ 3 5 3 10 3 Thomas Dee 9 July 1850 Robbery in dwell- ing. 10 ditto 6 - - 5 3 5 9 4 John Connors 2 Jan. 1851 Sheep-steaUng 10 ditto 5 - - 4 10 5 3 5 James M'Elraith - 3 April — Cow-stealing 10 ditto 2 - . 4 10 5 6 Michael Reardon - 15 July 1850 Burglary 10 ditto 1 10 7 1 11 1 4 5 8 ^ 7 James Nowlan 18 June 1852 Embezzlement 7 ditto 6 1 3 - 2 3 9 8 Francis Reilly 28 Feb. 1851 Receiving stolen goods. 10 ditto 4 - - 4 10 5 2 9 Robert M'Conrtney 19 July 1852 Burglary 7 ditto 1 1 1 1 1 4 2 3 8 10 John Hynes 14 Mar. 1851 Robbery from per- son. 10 ditto 2 4 1 1 4 1 4 5 I 11 Michael HoweU - 2 July 1849 Sheep-stealing 15 ditto 2 3 - 4 6 (Gibraltar) - - 6 9 12 Thomas M' Connor 9 Jan. 1851 Cow-stealing 10 ditto 4 11 4 - - 5 3 13 Martin Kelly 4 Mar. — Highway robbery - 10 ditto - . - 4 1 1 5 1 14 Robert W. Gibson, or Hone. 17 Mar. — Forgery 10 ditto 1 1 - 3 11 5 15 Michael Hickey - 6 Mar. — Burglary 10 ditto . - . 4 1 1 5 1 16 Michael Meagher, or Maher 5 Nov. 1852 Burglary and rob- bery. 7 ditto 7 - - 2 10 3 5 i NU. 17 Cornelius Phillips - 9 July — Having a stolen bank post-bill in possession. 7 ditto 6 " - — 3 3 3 9 18 Jeremiah Lane 7 June 1850 Robbery 10 ditto 2 11 1 - 2 9 5 9 19 Michael O'Connor, or Connors. 1 July — Abduction - 10 ditto 1 3 1 3 1 11 1 4 5 9 20 Michael M'Mahon Feuales : 17 June — Cow-stealing 10 ditto 2 7 1 3 ■ ■ 2 5 10 21 Mary Nailor 28 June 1852 Receiving stolen goods. 7 ditto 5 - - 3 4 3 9 22 Mary Campbell - 2 July — Larceny ditto 7 . - 3 2 3 9 23 Margaret Doogan - 25 June — Larceny ditto 9 - - 3 1 3 10 24 Eliza Killeen 30 June — Arson - - . ditto 8 - - 3 1 3 9 25 Margaret Uonohoe, or Tatlow. 18 June — Larceny ditto 8 - - 3 1 3 9 26 Mary Maroney 5 July — Larceny ditto 4 . - 3 4 3 8 27 Mary Fitzgerald - 3 July — Larceny ditto 4 - - 3 4 3 8 28 Ann, or Honoro Henessy. 6 Dec. — Larceny ditto 3 - - 3 1 3 4 29 Bridget Roche 21 June — Larceny 7 ditto 8 - - 3 1 3 9 Walter Crofton, Chairman. iS T O R 1 TRANSPORTATION. of Con,. '27 May 185(3. [P r) , ! Under ] // . 89U9 1356