IS BRITISH COLUMBIA. ■i XEG-ISLATIVE COUNCIL. 'C DEBATE ON THE SUBJECT OF CONFEDERATION WITH CANADA REPRINTED FROM THE GOVERNMENT GAZETTE EXTRAORDINARY OF MARCH. 1870. THE eOVERHMEHT OF THE PRCVWCE OF BRITISH COUIWIA. VICTORIA, It.C. : Printed by Wim.iam H. Cullin^ Trluter to tlie King's Most Excellent Majesly. 1012. ^i BRITISH COLUMBIA. LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL. DEBATE ON THE SUBJECT OF CONFEDERATION WITH CANADA. REPRINTED FROM THE GOVERNMENT GAZETTE EXTRAORDINARY OF MARCH, 1870. THE GOVIRNMEMT OF THE PRCUINCE. OF BRITISH COLUMBIA. VICTORIA, I?.C. : Printed by William H. Cillix, Printer to the King's Most Excellent Mnjesty. 1012. MEMBERS OF THE LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL. Session 1870. Hon. Philip Hankin, Colonial Secretar.r ami Presiding Member. Hon. Henby Peking Pellew Crease, Attorney-General. Hon. Joseph William Trutch, Chief Commissioner of Lands and Worlis. Hon. \Yymond Ogilvy Hamley, Collector of Customs. Hon. Arthur Thomas Bushby, Acting Postmaster-General. Hon. Edward Graham Alstox, J. P. Hon. Henry Maynard Ball, J.P. Hon. Henry Holbrook, J.P. Hon. Peter OTvEILLY, J.P. Hon. Augustus Frederick Pemberton, J.P. Hon. Edward Howard Sanders, J.P. Hon. George Anthony Walkem, J.P. Hon. Thomas Lett Wood. J.P. Hon. Francis Jones Barnard, Yale. Hon. Robert William Weir Carrall, Cariboo. Hon. Amok DeCosmos, A^'ictoria District. Hon. Edgar Dewdney, Kootenay. Hon. Montague William Tyrwhitt Drake, Victoria City. Hon. John Sebastian Helmcken, Victoria City. Hon. Thomas Basil Humphreys, Lillooet. Hon. D.wiD Babington Eing, Nanaimo. Hon. John Robson, New Westminster. LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL. DEBATE ON THE SUBJECT OF CONFEDERATION WITH CANADA. Wednesday, Otii Mauch, 1S70. The Hon. ATTORNEY-GENERAL CREASE opened the debate on Confederation, as follows : — Mr. President. — I rise to move that this Council do now resolve itself into Committee of the Whole, to take into consideration the terms proposed for the Confederation of the Colony of British Columbia with the Dominion of Canada, in His Excellency's Messaji^e to this Council. In doing so, I am deeply impressed with the momentous character of the discussion into which we are about to enter, the grave importance of a decision by which the fate of this our adopted country of British Columbia must be influenced for better, for worse, for all time to come. And I earnestly hope that our minds and best energies may be bent to a task which will tax all our patriotism, all our forbearance, all our abnegation of self, and selfish aims, to combine all our individual powers into one great, united effort for the common good. May He who holds the fate of Nations in the hollow of His hand, and crowns with succe.ss. or brings to naught, the counsels of men, guide all our deliberations to such an issue as shall promote the peace, honour, and welfare of our Most Gracious Sovereign, and of this and all other portions of Her extended realm. And now, Mr. President. I must dwell a few moments on the exact practical imixirt of the motion before the House, and the issue which is involved in the "Aye" or "No" which each Honourable Member will be called upon to cast upon the question which you. ilr. President, will put to the House in that familiar Parliamentary phrase "That I do now leave the Chair?" This issue is. Confederation or no Confederation? The motion assumes that the principle of Confed(>ration has been already fully M(loi)ted by this House— and having so assumed, asks you now to go into Connnittee of the Whole to discuss the Terms on which the Colony would be content to be confederated with the Dominion. Your question, therefore. Mr. President. "That I do now leave the Chair?" means — Will you refuse Confederation at any price? or. Will you have it on favourable terms? That is the issue before us now. Now, therefore, is the time for those Honourable Members who. notwithstanding the previous Resolutions of this House so frefpiently atfirmiim llic iirinciiilc | " No. no," from Dr. Helmckenl, still conscientiously objo^ct to the principles of Confederation, to come forward and explain to this Honourable bod.v. and to the country at large, their views. — why they still refuse to aid in the consolidation of British interests on the North American Continent, by the Con- federation of this Colony with the Dominion, and the creation of one homogeneous nationality from sea to sen. Some Honourable gcntU'mcn say "No. ua" to my statcini'ut that the House has aflirmed the principle of Confederation. But I apjieal lo (lie .loiirnals of this House, in ju-oof of wliat I state. I well remember, on tin- VMh .March, ISCT. when the "British Nortli America Act, 1807," was ])cing framed by llic Iiiiiierial Parliament, this Council, anxious to lie i-nibraced within the purview of its provisions, passed by nii unanimous vote the following Resolution: — "Resolved, That this Conncil is of opiulou thai at tliis jiuiclin-e of affairs iu Britisji North Amorica, east of the Rocky Mountains, it is very desirable that His Excellency be re«|)ectfiil]y requested to take such steps, without delay, as may he deemed by him best adapted to insure the admission of British Columbia into the Confederation on fair and equitable term?, this Council l)eing coiifideut that in advising- this step they are expressing the views of the Colouists generally." Confederation Debate. AikT more than that, this Resolution was followed up by a deputation of individual members to Governor Seymour, who at their instance telegraphed to the Secretary of State the purport of that Resolution; and on the 22nd IMarch. the following Message was sent down to the Council on the subject : — " The Governor has received the Resolution of the Legislative Council, dated the ISth instant, in favour of the admission of British Columbia with the proposed Confederation of the Eastern British Colonies of North America. He will place himself in communication on the subject with the Secretary of State, with Vij^count Monck. Governor-General of Canada, and with Sir Edmund Head, Governor of the Hudson's Bay Company." Whatever construction may be put upon this Resolution by Honourable ^leinbers who have said " Xo, no," one thing is certain, it affirmed, in the most distinct manner, by this Council, the princii)le of Coufederation, the advisability of our joining at some time or other the Dominion of Canada. That principle has during every subsequent session, down to the present day, been confirmed, either directly or indirectly, by a specific Resolution of this House ["No, no," from Dr. Helmcken and Mr. Wood]. Thus, on the 2Sth April, 18fi8, a Resolution was passed by this Council confirming the previous Resolution, in the following terms :— "That this Council, while confirming the vote of last Session in favour of the general principle of the desirability of the I'nion of this Colony with the Dominion of Canada, to accomplish the consolidation of British interests and institutions in North America, are still without sufficient information and experience of the practical working of Confederation in the North American Provinces, to admit of their defining the terms on which soich an Union Avould be advantageous to the local interests! of British Columbia."' What is that but a confirmation of the princi])le? Now let us look to the .Tournals of 1SG9. There I see that, on the 37th February, 18G9, when, owing to the position of other iwlitical issues then current in the Colony, it would have been easy, had it been so desired, to procure an adverse verdict on the principle of Confederation, the House, though invited to do so, refused to go any further than to request Her Majesty's Government (while the North-West Territory was still out of the Dominion) not to press the present consummation of Union. The word " present " was an express amendment of my Honourable colleague opposite ( Mr. Trutch ) and myself, .so as to preserve the principle, and bide our time. The House, therefore. I take it, has thoroughly and uniformly committed itself to the principle of Confederation, and may very properly be invited now, setting aside all causes of difference, for the common good, calmly, frankly, and cordially to enter upon a discussion of the terms. But if any Honourable Members think the principle has not been decided, now is the time and now the hour to settle that point (as far as this Session and this present Council is concerned) once and forever. They are bound, in sujiport of their views, to lay before the Council the reasons for the faith that is in them, and to explain why we should not consolidate counsels with the Dominion. And here. Mr. President, let me say a few words upon the position the Official ^lembers of this Council have occupied throughout the whole of this matter. Their action has been much misunderstood — I will not say niisc settlement of our Public Lands, and the development of Agriculture. T'nder it Trade and Connnerc(> would take a fresh start. It would enlarge, not contract, our jjolitical horizon, and it would infuse new hojjo and life blood into the whole system of the Colony, and not leave us a mere detached ]Municii)ality, as some supitose. any more tli;in Scotland is separate from the rest of Great liritiiin, or the County of Kent from England. I leave to others to dilate upon the advantages wliicli Canada would derive from the con- nection, the possession of a Far West (Canada's great want) into which her rai)idly increasing population may pour, instead of going to swell the bulk of the adjoining States. Confederation Debate. Those gentlemen will be able to show that the ultimate importaiiet> — nay possible existence — of the Dominion as a Nation may hereafter, in some measure, depend upon her Union with ourselves. To them. also. I leave the task of dwelling on the healing of old internal feuds of race and language of which Confederation is the only cure. If we watch the progress of events, they all jioint to the same end, to the growth of a new universal 1 sentiment of nationality in British America. It is clear thiit events all gravitate in that direction. [Mr. DeCosmos — "In the direction of Confederation or Nationality?"] I say. Sir, that the current of events points to Confederation and ultimately to Nationality. Confederation is evidently our ultimate destiny — Our own interests — Canadian aspirations — and' Imperial policy, as enunciated in the Secretary of State's Despatch, all point the same way. We shall, therefore, liest consult the real interests of the Colony, the sooner bring on a new era of progress and prosperity in this favoured land, by not delaying to debate and consider over the advisability of the principle itself, but at once to go into Committee of the Whole, and there coml)iue all our energies upon the l)est scheme to be submitted in the last resort to the decision of the people, for carrying out the principle of Confederation, under God's blessing, successfully into practical effect. The motion was seconded by the Hon. the Chief Commissioner of Lands and Works, who was excused from speaking at this stage of the debate on the ground of indisposition, under which he was manifestly suffering. The Hon. Mr. HELMCKEN said: — The subject of Confederation was introduced by His Excellency the Governor in his Speech, in the following terms : — "The communit.v is already acquainted with the De?patoli which I have recently received from Her Majesty's Secretary of State ou this subject ; and the careful consideration of it cannot longer be deferred Avith courtesy to Her Majestj^'s Government, or advantage to the Colony. I commend it to your earnest thought. For my own pait I am convinced that on certain terms, which I believe it would not be difficult to an-ange. this Colony may derive substantial benefit from such an Union. But the only manner in which it can be ascertained whether Canada will agree to siuch arrange- mentsi as Avill suit us. is to propose such as we would be ready to accept. With the assistance of ray Council. I have prepared a scheme which I ghall cause to be laid before you. Hesolutions framed upon that basis will enable me to communicate with the Government of Canada and ascertain whether they Avill be willing to accede to our propositions. While the views of Her Majesty's Government have been clearly and forcibly expressed upon this question. I am sure there is no desire" to urge the Union, except in accordance with its general acceptance l)y British subjects in the Colony. I do not. therefore, propose that any terms agreed upon by the (iovernment of "Canada should be finally accepttxl. until ratified by the general verdict of the community, so far as that can be ascertained through another Council, of which the Unofficial Members shall have been re-elected." Before proceeding to the consideration of the subject. I will reply in a very few words to the speech of the Hon. Attorney-General. The Hon. gentleman laid great stress upon the consolidation of British interests on this coast, but I say. Sir. that however much we are in favour of consolidating British interests, our own interests must come first; Imperial interests can well afford to wait. We are invited to settle this question now and for ever, but I sa,v that we are not called ui)on to do so ; the matter will come before the peoi)le after the proposed terms have been submitted to the Dominion Government, and it will very likely happen that, if these terms are rejected and others of a mean nature sul)stituted by the Government of Canada for the consideration of the peojile of this Colony, other issues may come up at the polls, and amongst them, the question whether there is no other place to which this Colony can go but Canada ; whatever may lie the result of the present vote, it is impossible to deny the probability of the less being absorbed l)y the greater; and it cannot be regarded as improbable that nltinuttely. not only this Colony, luit the whole of the Dominion of Canada will be absorbed by the United States. The Hon. Attorney-(Jeneral has not attemi)ted to prove the advantages which will result from Confederation; he has contented himself with vague assertions of advantages. The question is only brought down Ity the Governor in consequence of the Despatch of Lord Granvilh»: all we have to do is to agree to a series of resolutions. It is not pretended Confederation Debate. that it is the voice of the people, or the voice of this Coiiucil. It is well understood that it is a Government measure. And we all know what that means — it means that this series of resolutions is to be i)assed. And we have it from the Governor that he desires to send these resolutions to Canada ; they will not so, they are not intended to go, as the opinion of the people, but when certain terms have been agreed upon between the Government of this Colony and the Dominion Parliament, they will come back to the people for ratification. It remains then for the people to organize, so as to be ready at the proper time to give their verdict, for the responsibilities will ultimately rest with the people, and it is for them to say whether they will have Confederation or not. I do think, Sir, that the question ought to have been an open one. Her ^Majesty's Government ought not to have interfered ; they are not justified in interfering in business which we could very well manage for ourselves. I feel certain that His Excellency will act uprightly, fairly, honestly, and generously, by, and for. the Colony [hear, hear] ; and. Sir, I fully believe that if these terms are declined now, in any future negotiations that may take place, if the people support the Governor, no terms will be accepted, or ever proposed, which would lead to thLs Colony being sacrificed to Canada, and that the people will have every opportunity afforded them to organize for the final vote when the time arrives for the settlement of this question " finally and forever." as the Honour- able Gentleman has put it. I see no reason. Sir. why Her ]Majesty's Government should interfere with our affairs ; there is no reason that the Members of this Council shall be coerced. The desire of Her Majesty's Government is in reality a command to the Executive. A new election ought to have been called before this question was brought on ; but there is one satisfaction left us. it is that Her Majesty's Government have left the terms to the Colony. It is for the people to use that power rightly, wisely, and well, to see that Confederation means the welfare and progress of the Colony. Now, Sir, in the first place, it is necessary for the people to see that Confederation must be for the general good of the Colony. I am opposed to this question being brought down now. I believe it to be most inopportune. It is believed by most peoiile that this Colony is on the verge of great changes. That the new gold discoveries will bring a large population to this Colony, and that the slight despondency which now exists will be swei)t away, and that this Colony will once more enter upon an era of prosperity not inferior to that which belonged to it a few years ago. I say, Sir, that this is an inopportune period to liriiig this (piestion up. because when that population which is expected arrives, our position to negotiate for terms will be much better, because with a larger population and greater prosjjerity, we may demand far better terms than now ; and, Sir, it is my firm conviction that if prosi)erity comes shortly the people of this Colony will not desire to change certainty for uncertainty. Another reason there is that we ought to wait until after 1S71. In that year Canada has to take a census of the population, and when that is taken we shall know the amount of the debt per head. I have no doubt it is greater now than when Confederation was first inaugu- rated. It is increasing, and I believe that instead of 22 cents per head it will now be 25 cents. I should like, then, to wait until after 1S71, because we shall then have a ln'tter oi)portunity of knowing the financial condition of those with whom we would connect ourselves. It is inopportune, also, for the reason that the present difiiculties in the Red Hiver Settle- ment are sufficient to cause us great anxiety. I will not take up the time of this House by inquiring whether the people of that Territory are right or wrong. I know not, and shall not discuss the question; but this I do know, that if they induce the Indians to join them it will cause a great delay in the settlement of that country: and we do not even yet kno"w that the Red River Settlement will prove so inviting to emigration as is reported. Again, Sir, I may state that Confederation, so far as it has at present gone, is but a mere experiment. It is nothing more or less than an experiment. And I believe that considerable dissatisfaction has resulted from it. If we wait a little longer before seeking to enter within its pale ourselves, we shall know better about the faults of its machinery, and i)erhaps be able to learn what are its drawbacks, and how we can best avoid them. These, Sir, are good and sufficient reasons for delav. It is absurd to attempt to ally ourselves with a people 3.000 miles away, without 10 CONFEDKRATIOX DeRATK. any settlement of the interveninj; country, with no communication except through the T'nited States, and with no tele.i:rai)hic communication. Canada is for all practical purposes further removed from us to-day than England ; we know less about her. When we asked for a copy of the Canadian Tariff we were told that there was no copy to he had. ['• Yes, yes,"' from Hon. Memliers.] No official copy then. This. then, shows forcibly the intimate nature of the relations subsisting between us. When we desire to refer to the Canadian Year Book, a most useful work, which during the present discussion ought to be in the hands of every member, we find but two copies. This, again, shows the extent of our conmumication with Canada. Her Majesty's Government seem to think that they know best what is for our interest, and it seems much as if they said to us " I'ou are a Crown Colony, and you ought to remain one. You are not fit to govern yourselves ; we do not want you ; we will hand you over to Canada.'" T would rather that we were governed from Downing Street. It is not. in my opinion, necessary or desirable that this Colony should be Confederated with Canad.i. And now. Sir. let us glance at this Colony. I need not dilate upon what is known to all. 1 maintain. Sir, that this Colony is one of the richest portions of the world's surface ; that it has unlimited supplies of lumber and spars ; that it possesses coal, gold, and other minerals in abundance ; that her waters teem with fish ; that it is rich in every- thing. Take the climate; it is far better than that of England, far more temperate, far more bright and sunny, and. I may fairly add, far more healthy. We are asked by the Honourable the Attorney-General why the country does not get on ; and I will now proceed to tell you. Sir. why the country has not prospered as it ought to have done. It is because the Government has i)aid too little attention to the acquisition of population. One very great drawback to its progress and the settlement of its land, is its proximity to the United States. That proximity is one of the chief reasons that it has not been peopled as it would have been. When we look at the energy and enterprise there, and at the field which the I'nited States offers for emigrants and the enterprising of all nations, how can we wonder that that country is preferred to ours, and that people when they become dissatisfied here should leave for the I'nited States. The United States hem us in on every side; it is the Nation by which we exist; it is the Nation which has made this Colony what it is; but. nevertheless, it is one of our greatest drawbacks. We do not enjoy her advantages, nor do we profit much by them ; we do not share her prosperity, and we are far too small to be her rival. The effect (•f a large body and a small body being brought into contact, is. that the larger will attract the smaller, and ultimately absorb it. ["Yes, ye.s," and "No, no."] [Hon. Member for Kootenay — How about Switzerland?] I say more. Sir. I say that the United States will probably ultimately ab.sorb both this Colony and the Dominion of Canada. ["No, no, no."' from ^Ir. Trutch. Mr. Crease, and others.] Canada will in all probability find it quite as much to her advantage to join her ultimately, as we do now to join the Dominion. T say. Sir, that one cause of our want of prosperity has been the neglect of acciuisition of population, and particularly of agricultural population. The next cause is that we have driven people out of the Colony. I need only allude to our having deposed the Free Trade system. That deposition took population out of the Colony which has never been replaced. There was a depopulation of the cities without any attempt having been made to obtain a substitute rural population. We are now asked to undergo another revolution which will ruin our farmers, and do no sort of good to those engaged in commercial pursuits. I do not intend. Sir. to follow the details nf the proposed terms at present, but there seem items which I must notice. I hold in my hands the published returns of the Custom House receipts for last year, and this document shows jilainly. that no less than half a million of dollars are sent out of the Colony every year for the purchase of agricultural productions — wheat, barley, flour, and cattle — all of which, considering the fertility of our soil, its abundance, the magnificent, salubrious, healthy, sunny, and more than temperate climate, we ought to produce ourselves. This Colony probably raises another half million's worth. If we adopt the Canadian Tariff we shall throw away this million of dollars; that is. tin- half million which we raise, and the half million which can be raised. — and for what? For the sake of prolilematical benefits which some think likely to arise from Confederation. If Confederation shoiild come and bring with it the Tariff of Canada, and it will do so, the great inducements which we now have to attract populatiou. Confederation Dehate, li will be taken away. So far from Confederation benefitini; tlie connnercial coninnmity. I say it is mucli rather calculated to do them harm. No doubt if public works are luidertaken, as we are told will be the case under Confederation, employment will be given for a time, but the supplies required will come from the United States, and our public works will actually be of more benefit to the United States, during their construction, than to this Colony. What we want, is an enlarged outlet for our resources. We want markets for our coal and lumber ; we want our local industries fostered ; and all of these can be obtained by a judicious arrangement of our own Tariff. Xext, we want agricultural population, and any increase of this kind of population must depend upon the encouragement given. If our agricultural interests are left without encouragement, we shall not get an increased agricultural population ; and. therefore, the country will not reap so much benefit from pulilie works, as the sup])lies will come from the United States. We shall find it difficult. Sir. to get a Tariff from Canada that will suit us. and I think that I shall be able to show you, Sir, that Confederation will not produce population. Anything that deprives this Colony of the power of protecting the local industries and interests of the Colony, and of regulating and fostering its commerce and trade, cannot be otherwise than dangerous and injurious to the country. I feel perfectly sure. Sir. that if Confederation should come, bringing with it the Tariff of Canada, not only will the farmers be ruined, but our independence will lie taken away. It will deprive our local industries of the protection now afforded them, and will inflict other burdens upon them. It will not free trade and commerce from the shackles which now bind them, and will deprive the Government of the power of regulating and encouraging those interests upon which the prosperity of the Colony depends. There can be no i)ermanent or lasting union with Canada, luiless terms be made to promote and foster the material and pecuniary interests of this Colony. The only link which binds this Colony to Canada is Imperial. The people must be better off under Confederation than alone, or they will not put up with it. We are told. Sir. that public works are to be undertaken. I answer that they may do good to some, but the supplies both of food and raiment will come from the United States, who will in reality reap the lion's shai'e of the benefit; and. what is more, as soon as the money was expended the people would begin to consider whether thoy were equally well off under Confederation, as they might be under another Government : and if a change should be desired, it is perfectly plain that Canada cannot \ise force to keep the people of this Colony within the Dominion. They must be better off' under Confederation than alone, or they will not stop in the Confederacy. Our true course. Sir, judging from the statistics, is not lo look to Canada. Imt to seek to extend our markets for our natural productions, and to obtain an agricultural productive population. I say, Sir, that there is no necessity for us to join Canada ; we can get on very well by ourselves at present. The Hon. Attorney-<;eneral says Canada will take over our debts; l)ut I say. Sir. that our debt in proportion to our population is very little more per head than that of Canada. When I state this, I mean that Indians are vei\v large consumers and producers, and ought to be reckoned with the ])opulation. Our exjienses will .soon be much smaller. What I mean. Sir. is that at the end of ISTl this Colony will save .^nO.OOO. for one of the loans will have exjiired, thus saving us .$3().0(H), and floating loans will be funded, and we shall save ten or twelve thousand by that. I shall not go into the tincstion of Canada being able to defend this Colony; I do not believe, Sir, that Canada is alile to defend Itself. Great Britain has taken away her standing army. Canada will very soon be recpiired to pay for the few troops that are left, and in the next place they will be asked to contribute to the expen.se of keeping up the navy. Confederation would make the Dominion territorially greater, but would, in case of war, be a source of weakness. It is peoi)le, not territory, that makes a country strong and powerful. To be strong, the union must be of peoi)le, and in my opinion that condition is wanting. I feel certain that Her Majesty's (Jovernment has no wish to be put to the expense of defending the country; no wish to be involved in (piarrels with the T'nitetl States; no wish to keep Canada depending upon her support, but rather a wish to force her into independence — to get rid of her altogether. I am opposed to Confederation, becau.se it will not serve to promote the industrial interests of this Colony, but, on the contrary, it will serve to ruin many, and thus be detrimental to the 12 COXFEDERATIOX DeP.ATK. interest ami progress of the country. I say that Confederation will be injurious to the farmers, because protection is necessary to enable them to compete with farmers of the United States. The Tariff and Excise Laws do not supply that. They will be inimical to brewers. Inimical to the Spar Trade ; Inimical to Fisheries ; Inimical to Whalint? Pursuits; Inimical to Spar and Lumber Business. Turn to the Canadian Tariff and you will find j^rain admitted free. I maintain that if the tariff now imposed upon certain cereals and agricultural produce be talcen away, farmers of this Colony will be brought into competition with the farmers of the United States, and will succumb [Mr. DeCosmos — Lower Country Farmers.] Yes. and here the Resolutions are silent where they ought to be loudest. I sliall not attempt to prove that farmers did not ])r()sp('r under Free Trade; be that as it may, they ai"e now prosperous and becoming rich. There is no better advertisement for popula- tion tlian tlie fact of the ])resent prosperitj^ of the farmers. Take away that prosperity, and you do away with the chief inducement which you have for agricultural population. 1 go on to brewers, and these interests, though in point of fact small, are in proportion as large with us, as larger interests would be to a larger population; moreover, we, having so small a population, cannot afford to risk a change, because we cannot recuperate quickly. Under the Canadian law a brewer nuist take out a brewer's and maltster's license, and has to pay one cent per pound on all malt made, and as there is an average amount of 1.248.000 pounds of malt consumed in the year, the average duty would amount to .$12,6S0 per annum, in addition to which they will have to pay a maltster's and brewer's license. The duty upon that amount of malt now is .So.T.jO. Confederation therefore will increase the malt duty by nearly $9,000. Bi'ewers would probably buy all their malt from abroad or cease to brew, especially when we take into consideration the annoyances connected with the bonding system. Yon will see. Sir, that this quantity of malt would take 500 acres of land to raise it, so tliat in addition to injuring the brewers, the farmers are also injured. Under the Canadian Law. salmon must not be taken at llie mouth of any river when they are going up for the puri)ose of spawning. "We all know that they must be taken. If we are not allowed to catch them as they go up, we should never get them at all. They never come down again ; they go up to die. Again, according to Canadian Law. whales must not be taken by means of bomlis or fire- arms : and I am told they cannot be taken without firearms in these waters, so that under Confederation whales would be free to spout as they pleased. Tender Canadian Law. tobacco cannot be grown without excise duty ; it has to be bonded, and its cultivation would be abandoned. Alkaline soil suits the tobacco plant, and I have very little doubt that tobacco could be grown profitably in many parts of British Columbia [Hon, Ilolbrook — It is grown] ; but the excise duty. "When we come to lumber we find that there is an export duty on logs of .$1 per 1.000 feet; this will affect the spar business. [Hon. Barnard — No, it will not affect spars; the duty is upon logs only, which is cut into lumber, and is a protection to Canadian Lumber Mills.] I have now. Sir, given you reasons why the general interests of the Colony will not be promoted. Farmers. Brewers, the Lundier Trade, and the Fisheries will not be benefited; who will? Canada will take no coal nor luinlior fi-oni us. and will not increase our trade at all; but thej' will take our money, and nnuh of that money derived from the very fact that we have to pay more for Canadian manufactures than the Eastern Provinces, or rather we are obliged to pay duties upon foreign articles, simply because we cannot obtain Canadian, and yet we are told that Confederation will reduce our taxation. Our Tariff is as low as that of Canada, save upon spirits and tobacco. It would be alisurd for us to sacrifice our interests in ordi'r that laws may be made for us by a peojile who know little of our condition and wants, and who in fact must necessarily legislate for the greater number — the peo]»le of the Atlantic Provinces. It is dangerous to place ourselves at the disimsal of su])erior numbers. I believe. Sir. that we are quite callable of making laws for ourselves. If we are united, or rather absorbed, everything will centralize in Canada, and the whole country will be tributary to Canada. The number of Representatives sent to Ottawa from other places would overwhelm the number sent from British Columbia. Even in the matter of COXFEDERATIOX DkBATE. 13 apin-opriations, where the scramble always is, this Colony would be overborne; we should he hiufihed at by the victors for our pretensions. Tt is tlie case in all other Colonies, and would be here. It is absurd to suppose that the same laws, whether civil, commercial, or industrial will be found equally advantageous to all parts of this great Continent. It manifestly cannot be so; the conditions are diflfei'ent. We linow what is best for ourselves, and are altle to legislate to effect that. "We have no wisli to pay Canada to do our legislation. No union between tliis Colony and Canada can permanently exist, unless it be to the material and pecuniary advantage of this Colony to remain in the union. Tlie sum of the interests of the inhabitants is the interest of the Colony. The peoi)le of this Colony have, generally speak- ing, no love for Canada ; tliey care, as a rule, little or nothing about the creation of another P^mpire, Kingdom, or Republic ; they have but little sentimentality, and care little about the distinctions between the form of Government of Canada and the United States. Therefore no union on account of love need be looked for. The only bond of union outside of force — and force the Dominion has not — will be the material advantage of the country and pecuniary benefit of the inhabitants. Love for Canada has to be acquired by the prosperity of the country, and from our children. I say, Sir, it is absurd for us to ally ourselves with a people with whom we have, and can have, no communication. The Tariff and Excise Laws of Canada will ruin the dominant interests of this Colony, and we are told that those laws nuist rule accordingly to the conditions of " The British North America Act." A Tariff perhaps excellent to the Eastern Provinces, is ruin to British Columbia. Our Tarifi" imposes a large duty on spirits, and a duty on agricul- tural produce. The Canadian Tariff imposes none on agricultural produce, and a small duty on spirits. If we are Confederated with Canada we become its tributary, and in all that concerns us chiefly Canada has to act for us. In all our chief concerns, conunerce. shi])ping, and mercantile laws, agriculture, trade, navigation, fisheries, currency, banking — Canada rules. She may tax us to any extent, and in any manner she pleases, so that it is quite possible we may have export duties on gold and coal. All such things as require money for their performance are left for the Colony to provide; those that require intellect are supplied by Canada. The expense to Canada is constantly decreasing, her revenue constantly increasing. The expense of the Local Government on the other hand, is constantly increasing, and out of iiroj^or- tion to any increase of its revenue. Is it necessary that we should pay for the intellect of Canada? Is our own not as good? Do we not know what is best for ourselves? Cannot we do all as well as they? Cannot we pay our Colonial intellect to do our business well, instead of theirs to do it badly? The very means by which we ought to make our roads are taken from us, so that, as time rolls on, we shall have to provide other taxes, and raise loans for the purpose. The other countries have gone into Confederation with roads ready made, and large loans and large debts. It is not fair to put this country upon a footing of its present population: on its presiMit income; a future income ought to be calculated ui»on. I do not think it wise to ruin the present ]»opnlMtinii tor the sake i>\' the futurt'. Ivemember that to have a population, that i)o])ulation must be able to live. Confederation will ruin the farmer, and destroy at once the greatest inducement to innnigration ; will ruin the brewer and the fisheries; do no good to commerce; afford no larger market for lumber, coal, or anything else; in fact do a great deal of harm and no good, save that which is i>robleniatical and fanciful. In conclusion. I have to say llial T sincerely trust llmt our (Iclilicrations may result in good, and that whatever may lie the issue of Ibis deliate, it may b(> tor llu' good of the Colony. I accord most heartily with the learned Attorney-iJeneral in the iielief that — " Thoro's a Divinity that shapes our end.*. Rou'zii hew them how we iiiiiv."' The Hon. Mu. DIJAKE, Member for Victoria City, rose and said: — Sir, I will move an amend- ment to the Resolution of the Hon. Attorney General — " That the consideration of this question be postponed for six months." I need not state. Sir. that I have always been opposed to Con- federation. I have consistently opposed Confederation on any terms up to the present time, and 14: COXFEDEUATIOX I )Er.ATK I do not see any reason now to change my opinion. I do not say that Confederation umst he had for all time, the time may come when it will he a henefit or a necessity; bnt at present, I do not helieve that Confederation would he a henetit to British Columbia. The time has not yet arrived for it. I was sent to this Council as an opitoneiit of Confederation. I oppose it from conviction, and I shall still continue to oppose it. The (piestion of Confederation has heeu advocated hy certain parties for some years past, and why? Because there has heen a general feeling of dissatisfaction throughout the Colony, a general feeling of pressure from heavy taxation on a daily diminishing hasis. The people have heen sufl'ering under a desire for change; that is what is at the liottom of this discussion. Confederation has heen discussed outside, in the pulilic press, and in other places, and now, after years of agitation, hy secret and unknown partisans, it has crojiped up in this (^ouncil as a Government measure. I know. Sir. that I have no chance of carrying this amendment. I have not the slightest hope of carrying it, hut I move it with the view of bringing the question fairly hefoi-e the public. I should deeply regret that this Council should be able to bind the Colony for ever. The question is one of the greatest magnitude, greater hy far than any other which has ever come before this Legislature. I am glad that it must hereafter be referred to another Council, the majority of whose members will have to come before the people for election. I think, however, that it is waste of time to bring this measure before this Council. There are some points in Confederation. I admit, which are worthy of consideration, or would be under different circumstances. The idea of consolidating the British Possessions on this Continent, is an idea which is likely to carry people away. The idea of assisting to found a large and wide-spreading country might be dazzling to some. But if we ai*e to be turned over to Canada with no change in our form of Govei-ument, no alteration in the management of our political affairs, where is the advantage of any change. It will simply be a change from " King Stork " to " King Log.'' The Officials will be chosen by the Dominion Government instead of the Crown ; we should be transferred from the rule of Statesmen at Downing Street to that of I'oliticians at Ottawa. ["No, no," from Mr. DeCosmos.] All our political rights will be taken away, the whole of the legislation will pass out of our hands into that of the Dominion at Ottawa ; those laws upon which we shall be entitled to i)ass an opinion, will be much of the same nature as those upon which a nuniicipality or vestry n)ay vote ; but which are beneath the dignity of a Colony. All power of raising taxes, except as the Hon. Member for the District reminds me, for provincial purposes, we shall be subject to the provisions of the Organic Act, which we have no power to change. Any terms which we can impose, must he subject to the provisions of " The British North America Act." My position, therefore, is correct, when I say that our power will not exceed that of a municipality. "We are told that we are not fit for Representative Institutions or Itesponsihle Government. Then we shall go into the Dominion as a Crown Colony — bound hand and foot. The few Members that will represent us at Ottawa, will not have the power to do anything for us. I do not trust the I'oliticians of Ottawa. I do not desire to give them the power to raise money upon our vast and rich territory, whilst we should get nothing from Canada in return. I would r.-ithrr remain as we are. with some change and modification in our Government. I admit that Confederation offers great advantages to those Provinces which are contiguous to Canada ; there they have a mutuality of interests ; they are able to use the products of the Dominion ; they have community of interests ; and there is no extent of wild, unsettled country between them and the seat of Government. We are divided hy upwards of 4.000 miles from Halifax. 2.0(X) of which is an unknown wilderness. Some exitlorers who have travelled by that route say, that the greater part of the country is alkaline and unfit for settlement. There is, no doubt, a large tract of fertile land in the valley of the Saskatchewan, but much of the intei'- vening territory is unknown. I ask. Sir, is not our position as a territory of Great Britain, far in advance of what it would be as a I'rovince of the Donunion? Will not the change operate disadvantageously? We know that our interests can hardly confiict with those of Great Britain; can we say the same as regards the Dominion, (^'anada is hampered by her vast territory, and the larger that territory becomes, the greater her weakness will be. But. Sir, I ask of what use is this vast territory, unpeopled and uncultivated. Canada wants population and capital ; this Colony wants the same. I'pon looking at the returns of population, I find that two-thirds of the emigrants go over the border to the I'nited States, and many native-born Canadians go to the United States, because they find there a more genial climate, and more work to do. If Canada teemed Confederation Debate. 15 with population lilce Eiiglaiul, wlieve jieople cannot tintl work for tlieir liands to do, I could conceive it likely tliat we niiirlit acquire population through Canada, but I cannot see how we can gain population unless a llailway were not only commenced, but in such a state of progi'ess as to be a means and inducement for population to come into the country, and this is not likely, in my opinion, to be the case. I have listened to what my Honourable colleague has said about the agricultural interests, and I entirely coincide with him. Our farmers cannot compete with the farmers of the United States under the Canadian Tariff. In the United States, farmers are able to get everything that they want within their own country, whilst here everything comes from abroad. Until the farmers of this Colony can make everything that they require for their own use, they cannot compete with those of the T'nited States. We can always import American goods, even under a heavy duty, cheaper than Canadian goods, and this, Sir, will put this Province under a different condition as compared with other Provinces. Let us then suppose this Confederation scheme carried out; we will- consider the sacrifice completed, the victim decorated with the conditions which have been graciously accorded by the more powerful contracting party. What will become of our farmers? I refer more particularly to the farmers of the Island and of the Lower Fraser. This class I look upon as the bone and sinew of the country. They. Sir, I say. will be driven out of their own market by the cheaper productions of the States. And, I would ask, what industry it is supposed will take the place of agriculture? Moreover, Sir, I would ask if we be confederated upon these terms, what guarantee has the Colony that the terms will be carried out? We all know that when compacts are made between a large and a small power, the larger can break the treaty with impunity when an emergency arises. Would Canada hesitate, in the event of having to repel a Fenian invasion, to abandon the Railway? We have no guarantee that the Dominion will carry out the terms to which her Statesmen may agree. We may be abandoned at any time. The benefits of the larger Provinces of Canada will always take precedence of those of British Columbia, whose representatives will be in a small minority. And I would never consent to Confederation on any terms without an Imperial guarantee that the terms would be observed and kept. History tells us that in a compact between a larger and smaller country. the smaller must go to the wall. I sum up my objections to Confederation in a few words : At the present time. I think that any terms will be inimical to this Colony, on account of our distance from Canada ; on account of the smallness of our population, for we never can have an equal vote in the Dominion Parliament with other I'rovinces; on account of the danger of our farming interests being killed and crushed ; and on account of the unsettled state of the intervening territory; and even if the Xorth-West Territory were confederated, what a Honourable ^Member distinctly setting himself in opposition to Confederation. I will not follow him for the pm-pose of rebutting so-called arguments against Cnofederation. The Honourable gentleman tells us that Confederation is unnecessary, that this Colony is one of the richest si)ots on the face of the earth, with a climate inferior to no part of the world, — why should it not go on alone? And he tells us that this view of the question is taken by the majority of the people of the Colony. Why. Sir, the Colony has had all this ojiportunity for fifteen years; and what is the fact? Ten years ago the Colony had a very much larger population than now, and very much larger commerce. Are we, then, under these circum- stances, to ask the peoi)le to wait and work out their own salvation? But, Sir, in addition, we are told in a State paper tliat we are not to be allowed to hang on the skirts of Great Britain, like a mendicant's child. I can hardy reconcile the position of manly independence with the position of hanging on to unwilling Imjierial skirts. Rather than that, I would aslv for union with the Sandwich Islands, or with Hindostan. British Columbia has tried long enough to get on by herself. After fifteen years hard struggle, she finds herself worse off than she was at the beginning. Her progress has been like that of the crab — backward. Confederation Debate, 17 She might make progress, but, unfortunately, her form of Government has rendered progress impossible. I believe that the illiberal form of Government has liad much to do with keeping away population — with driving away population, — and with destroying the spirit of manly enterprise of those who are here. Apart from its being the policy of the British Government to unite all the British American Colonies in one great Confederation, if we persist in remain- ing alone we shall be told by the Imperial Government that we are not fit for liberal institutions, and not prepared for self-government. We should get no amelioration. Downing Street officials would say that we are not fit for Res])onsible Government, and that we ought to confederate. There is no difficulty in showing that Confederation will be beneficial to British Columbia; that is to say, Confederation on proper terms. 1 do not say that Confederation would be entirely satisfactory on the terms proposed in the Government programme. The terms, although excellent, do not go far enough ; but I can hardly understand any man taking the position that under those terms, even as they are. Confederation would not be beneficial. The public works proposed would make the population of the Colony double what it is now. No man can conceal from himself, looking at the question dispassionately, that the construction of the Railway alone would bring a very great increase to our labouring and productive population. We are told that the tariff of the Dominion would crush our farming and industrial interests. Why, Sir, that tariff is a li-ttle more than a third lighter than ours, and would relieve us of that one-third of present taxation; and our Customs duties, it must be borne in mind, are taken by the Dominion (Government. Although, in its present form, the tariff would be ill-adapted to some of our local interests which we desire to protect, it should be remembered that the Canadian tariff is now under revision, as regards the free admission of American- productions; and under Confederation we shall in all probability have a treaty of reciprocity; or, if not, certainly a revised tariff which would meet American productions, which now find a free market in the Dominion, with a protective duty. The argument of the Honourable Member with regard to tariff and farmii'.g interests is then swept away by that fact. |I)r. Helmcken— " Is it a fact? "] This subject is one of the greatest impoi-tance. All other questions are overshadowed by it. It is the most important one ever debated on the British Pacific. It has been justly said it is a step for life, for better for worse. The question must be approached in a fair spirit, and in dealing with it we ought to be thoroughly honest with ourselves; and in dealing with facts, I hope that allowance will be made for what has been said, for I believe that much of the present opposition arises out of ancient prejudices. Why do we find an Honourable gentleman who has grown grey in the service of his country, and for whom we have respect amounting to veneration, talking of centralization of every interest under Confederation at Ottawa? Does the union of Washington Territory and Oregon with other States of the Great Republic mean centralization at Washington? [Dr. Helmcken — "Yes."] Then, Sir, where would be the advantage of union in that other direction that has been alluded to? Certain persons are fond of talking about the advantages of Annexation; all arguments in its favour can be brought with redoubled force in favour of Confederation. British Columbia as a member of the Union would have a Pacific frontage, but only in c(»mmon with other countries of the Union. As a part of the Dominion she would have more, for she would be the only outlet of the British Confederacy on the Pacific Coast. Exception has been taken by the Honourable gentleman to the fishery laws of the Dominion; and it is said that the whales and salmon will cry out for Confederation to jirotect them. If the Canadian fishery laws were enforced in their present lenii. it Is possilile that the salmon might escape, and the whales might spout with impunity; but we have a right to expect that the Dominion Parliament will adapt these laws to this Colony, on the representations of the Members from this Province. It would be absurd to suppose that, if the fishery laws of the Dominion were Inimical to British Columl)ia. they would be enforce t.iritT. 1 think that the only arguments against Confederation worthy of consideration, are against the present Canadian Tariff. The Customs Tariff is a federal matter, and I confess that the arguments against the applicability of the present scale to Briti.sh Columbia are entitled to notice; but. Sir. as I said before. I think these arguments are to a great extent met by the fact that we shall have an amended tariff, or a reciprocity treaty. But if we could hit upon some scheme that, without infringing the Dominion preroga- tives, would meet our re(iuirements. it would be most desirable, and shall have my hearty support. In conclusion. Sir. the Government measure sliall meet with my liearty support, so far as it goes. It affords me unpseakable gratification to find that Government has sent down a measure for Confederation which can hardly be cavilled at. While feeling pleasure in giving a hearty general suiiport to this measure. I shall reserve to myself the right to suggest that other items shall be placed in the list now before the House. I believe there are terms of the greatest importance \\-liich ought to be added. But an}i:hing that can be added will not meet the wishes of the peojile of this Colony, unless the fundamental principle of self-government accompanies them. I believe that the Canadians are a great, a wise, and a conservative people; but I conceive we should be doing a great wrong to ourselves, to our children, and to those who are to come after us. if we left out Kesponsible Government. Suppose. Sir. the case of three jiersons forming a jiartnership ; if the third partner, coming in subsequently, should consent to leave the management of his private affairs to the firm, he would not only be giving up his own rights, but he would be throwing into the partnership a great element of discord. I say. then, that while Canada necessarily and projierly asks us to surrender the larger questions, she does not ask us to relinquish our smaller and local rights, and if we give them up we shall be doing a wanton thing and a great wrong. In promising my support, therefore. I make this reservation: lliat. if this Colony is to become a Province of Canada, the people of British Columbia shall have the right to manage their own local affairs, as fully as every other I'rovince has. For. while I agree with the Honourable Junior Member for Victoria, that the change from Downing Street to Ottawa would be useless without a change in the system of (Jovernment, I say that it would be most injurious to go into Confederation upon terms which might inaugurate a fresh era of political agitation, which would probably continue for a series of years. Hon. Mr. HELMCKEX — Sir. I rise for the ))uri)ose of explaining. I deny that I uttered any such thing as that the choice would be i>ut to the people by the Government between two issues of Confederation and any other union. But that if the Canadian (iovernment refuses to agree to terms eiiuivalent to these, but chooses to offer some mean terms for consideration, when it comes to the ])olls the people themselves will raise the issue between Confederation and the only other change which offers itself for consideration. The debate was here adjourned until Thursday, at 1 o'clock. Confederation Dep.ate. 19 Thursday, IOth ^Iarch. 1S70. The debate was resuiuetl by tbe Hon. Mr. TRUTCH, Chief Commissioner of Lands and Works, who said: — Mr. President, in rising' to renew tlie debate on the question which has been brought before the House by the Honourable the Attorney-C(>neral. I desire to express my regret that I was prevented yesterday, by indisposition, from spealdng in sujjport of the motion which I had the honour to second, because I fear that by the delay I may have laid m.vself open to the charge of waiting to reply to objections that might be urged against this motion, instead of at once supporting it upon positive and substantial grounds, as I hold it to be Incumbent on those to do who advocate so important a measure. I must also ask the indulgence of the House if I lind it necessary to follow the Honourable the Attorncy-CJencral over ground already so fully and ably occupied by him. as, rather than leave (mt anything in the history of this question which is pertinent to my argument. I will run the risk of laying myself open to the charge of plagiarism. In the first place, then. T must ask you, Sir, to allow me to trace the history of Confech'ration in this Council, as shewn in the debates which have taken phice on the subject. You will find. Sir, that this subject was first introduced into this Council on the 29th of March, 18G7, when a Resolution in favour of the abstract principle of the Con- federation of the British Provinces in North America, and expressing the desire that this Colony should be allowed the opportimity of entering the Dominion upon fair and equitable terms, at some future time, was unanimously agreed to. I do not quite take the view of the Honourable the Attorney-General with respect to the discussions that have taken place on this question; for. Sir. I think that the question is now for the first time brought before this House and the country iu a jn-actical shape, for a full and deliberate expression of opinion. The vote which was taken in 1807. according to my understanding of it at that time, went no further than to express a desire on the part of the Colony to be confederated with Canada, when a favourable occasion should arrive, and the result of that vote was. I believe, the insertion of the rlause in the " British North America Act." on which the measure we are now discussing is Ita.sed. Again, in 18(58. when the Honourable INIember for District No. 2 introduced a series of Resolutions setting forth terms on which this Colony should be united with Canada, the sense of the House, as then expressed, was that we were not possessed of suthcient information to enable us to come to any ])ractical resolution on the subject; and. Sir. when the terms and conditions then proposed for the consideration of the House are conqiared with those now submitted for your adoption, no words are needed to show that tlie conclusion then arrived at was judicious. Last year, again, the subject was introduced by the Hon. Dr. Davie, to a reluctant House. We all felt that there were circumstances which rendered its discussion then in this (^)uncil inexpedient, although the question of Confederation was even then occupying public altenlion to an al)sorbing extent, and had in fact been the test question at the elections a short time previously in the Districts in this part of the Colony. But certain remarks of the Honourable Member for Cariboo, in reference to the position of Government Members on this question, compelled the expression of the views of the Council on the sul)ject at that time, in a Resolution pointing out the practical im])Ossibility of the union of this Colony with Canada, until Ibe North- West Territory was amalgamated with the Dominion. But now circumstances are entirel.v changed. The Hudson Bay Coiiiiiany's rights in that region, known as the North-West Territory, are determined by purcliase. and that country is practically part of the Dominion of Canada: for the tempor.-iry opposition from a cerlain class of the jioimlation of the Red River Settlement, to tlie assunqttion of the Government by tlie Canadian authorities, is i)assing away, if not by the iiresent moment virtually at an end. .\.nd treating that ebullition of feeling resulting from misapprehension of the real intention of the Dominion (Jovernment as passed away. T regard it as an established fact that, as stated in Lord Granville's despatch, our boundaries arc now conterminous with those of Caiiad;i. But not only is Union with t'anada now practicable, but. Sir, I regard t]i(> present as a most opportune moment for its consummation. I entirely agree witli Honourable Members who say that this Colony requires a cliange. In its present depressed state. tlu> Colony needs assistance and fresh impetus. There are many causes which combine to contribute to the depression now observable in the country. It has been attributed to the present form of Government. Take that as one cause, if you please; but, Sir, I believe it has had very little effect, if any, in pro- 20 Confederation Debate. diK-ing this result, and you will find numy other and mightier reasons to account for it. Chiefly, I believe, with the Honourable Attorney-General, that this depression is attributable to the isolated position of the Colony, and to the cold shade thrown over us by the neighbourhood of the Territories of the Fnited States, from whom we can never hope for aid in advancing the interests of this Colony whilst under the British Flag. The desire for some change is urgent, and if we wait for more prosperous times, under which to claim better financial terms, we may realize the old proverb of the "Horse starving whilst the grass is growing." Besides, Sir, on reference to the terms now proposed for the consideration of this House by the Government, it will be found that they are based not altogether on the present condition of the Colony, but somewhat on an anticipated increase of population and prosperity; and I suppose we might wait many years before such a measure of prosperity would accrue to us, as to entitle us to ask better financial terms than are included in these Resolutions. I believe the time. then, to be opijortunc. and I think that there is every reason to suppose that the present Government of the Dominion is now desirous and ready to grant us fair and liberal terms. I believe. Sir, tlie Canadian Government are favourably disposed towards us, and prepared to go to the utmost of their ability in all reasonable matters to enable us to joint the Confeder- ation. The policy and wishes of the Imperial Government, too, in the same direction are clearly enunciated in Earl Granville's despatdi ; and we are fortunate in having now at the head of the Executive a Governor admirably adapted by his ability and experience to take charge, on our behalf, of negotiations for our union with the Dominion, and to whom the interests of the connnunity may confidently be entrusted. And that brings me. Sir, to this point: That in its tirst introduction into this Council, this measure nuist necessarily be a (lovernment measure. The constitution of this House renders it imperative that the initiatory steps should be taken by the Government, although the final acceptance of the terms will properly rest with the people. The policy of the Imperial Govern- ment has been clearly stated : It encourages us to amalgamate our interests with Canada, and points out the advantages to be thus obtained, and nothing that I could add would enunciate more clearly than that document the grounds on which Her Majesty's Government, on behalf of this Colony, favour Confederation. This leads me to remark on the part that has been taken in reference to this question by the Official Members of this House, especially by the Executive Officers. Our position has been misaiiprehended — or if not nn'sapprehended. it has been misrepresented — and I feel it my duty to allude to the false impressions wliich have been spread abroad on this subject. It has been stated that the Official Members have been obstructive to Confederation, with regard to their own official positions and interests. But this is not the fact. On a matter so clearly involving a question of Imperial policy, we were not at liberty to anticipate the views of the Home Government, which have now for the first time been distinctly made public. The Hon. Attorney- General and myself have consistently affirmed the principle of Confederation ; and we have always felt that we could safely confide our personal interests to the care of the Imperial Government, whose servants we are. To Her Majesty's Government those interests are entrusted by the Resolutions proposed for your adoption ; and. Sir, we are well satisfied that this question as it affects us personally should so depend. We have been right. Sir, I believe, in not antici- pating the views of the Imperial Govermnent, for the terms of union now submitted for your adoption prove the wisdom of the course which we have pursued ; and in the exercise of caution we have shewn ourselves the truest friends of tlie Colony, even though we liave not appeared to be the most enthusiastic advocates of Confederation. This, then, is a Government measure, as the Honourable the senior Member for Victoria has told you ; and as I hold it is of necessity a Government measure. This scheme is propounded by the Government, as the guardians of the interests of this infant Colony; and I stand here as a member of the Government to sujiport the Resolutions which are now before you, and I sincerely trust that they will be adopted by this Council. But His Excellency has told us that the ultimate acceptance or rejection of the terms of union with Canada, after they have been submitted to the Dominion Government, shall l)e left to the i»opular voice of this country. I will now. Sir, come to the consideration of what Confederation is in the abstract, as I understand it. It is the union and consolidation of British interests in British Territory on this Continent, for the security and advancement of each Province individually, and of the Confederation Debate. . 21 whole collectively, under the continued support of the British Flag. A great idea of great minds, which have thus given a practical refutation to that doctrine of " America for the United States," known as the " Munro doctrine," held by leading politicians of the States south of us ; and on this account, if on no other grounds, the princii)le of Confederation deserves the support of every British heart in the Colonj\ I am now brought to a suljject which I should not have known how to approach, but for tlie bridge thrown over for me by the Honourable Member for Victoria yesterday. By that Honour- able Member the suggestion of a closer union with another country — with the United States, in fact— and the possibility that at the next General Election such an union might be presented as an alternative to Confederation with Canada, was introduced in so palpable a manner, that I should feel myself derelict to my duty as a Member of the Executive and as a Member of this Council if I did not refer to it. Mr. President, I should do violence to my best feelings were I to refrain from availing myself of this opportunity of paying my hunible tribute of respect and esteem for the people of that great Republic. [" Hear, hear," from all sides.] Xo one can better appreciate than I do the high and eminent qualities which characterise that great Nation, and especially that national feeling — that love of country, so worthy of our imitation — for which they have made such sacrifices. It has been my fortune to pass several years in the United States, and to have formed there some of the most valued friendships of my life, so that my acquaintance with Americans has led me to form a most appreciative estimate of their social and domestic relations, of which I can not speak in terms of too much praise. But my experience of the political institutions of that country only led me to prize our own more highly, and made me more than ever an Englishman ; and I rejoice at the opportunity now afforded me of raising my voice against any movement tending in the direction of incorporating this country with the United States. I must now make passing allusion to a petition gotten up in some mysterious way, looked upon here at first as a mere joke ; so insignificant that it would not be worthy of notice but for the use made of it elsewhere. It has been represented in other quarters as expressing the views of a great portion of this communitj'. It has been so represented in very high quarters, and I therefore notice it ; and in doing so I feel compelled to state that, so far as I could learn, it was signed by a very small number of people — forty-two, I believe, in all — many of whom were aliens, and most of whom were foreign-born subjects, and who appear to have been generall.v actuated by prejudice, based upon a lack of information respecting Canada and the Canadians, and not by any regard for the permanent benefit of the community. But as this petition has been followed up by the publication of letters and by a discussion in the newspapers, which we cannot blink, as to what has been termed the Annexation of this Colony to the United States ; and as allusion was made to it, by an innuendo at all events, in this Council yesterday, I feel bound to express my opinion of what our position would be under any such union as has been hinted at. If British Columbia were placed in the same position as Washington Territory, we should be absolutely without representation — for that Territory has one rei)resentative in Congress, it is true, but he has no vote— and all our officials would come from Washington. Annexation to the United States would also entail on us largely increased taxation, and would most materially affect an interest which the Honourable Member for A'ictoria told you would suffer most from Confederation. Why, Sir, under the union suggested, our farmers would be brought into direct competition with the farmers of Washington Territory and Oregon, and then our agri- cultural interests would be indeed annihilated. Again, if this country were American Territory you would have the whole influence of San Francisco brought to bear against the mercantile interests of Victoria; no hoi)e could we have of building up a port liere to rival San Francisco; no. Sir, you would never see a foreign vessel in these waters. I see no advantages in the suggestion ; I have heard none pointed out, unless it be the questionable expectation that American capital might buy up the real estate in and around Victoria, and so give the present holders the opportunity of realizing their i)roperty into money and then leave the country to its fate. But in tliis hope. Sir, I believe they would be egregiously disappointed. I will not pursue the subject any further. Annexation is entirely out of the question, and I should not have dared to allude to it, but for the introduction of the subject by another Honourable Member yesterday. What do these foreign petitioners propose to transfer? Themselves? Their own Confederation Debate. property? No; not themselves, nor that which belongs to them, but the whole Colony, the soil of this vast domain which belongs to the Crown and the people of England. This I regard as treasonable. In supporting Confederation I support the flag I serve. I say that loyalty is no exploded idea ; call it a sentiment if you will ; life is nothing without sentiment. Every one whose soul is not dead must cling to love of country and attachment to her flag, as one of the most cherished sentiments of the heart, and I regard loyalty as one of the most deep-rooted and highly prized treasures of the human breast. ["Hear, hear." from all sides.] Bear with me. Sir. while I tell you now what I think Confederation is not. I don't think it necessarily means Responsilile Government, or. as an Honourable INIember at the other end of the House has put it, that it means getting rid of Government Otficials. If that Honourable Mend)er"s desire is to be rid of the present incumbents of office so that others may take their plac^, I think it probable that his wishes in this respect may be gratified through Confederation ; and in that case I could only hope that the change would be beneficial to the Colony. But I doubt much if this measure would receive supi)ort from this Council on these grounds; and at all events the Honoural)le Gentleman cannot expect much symi)atliy on that score from this side of the House, Again, Confederation does not. to my mind, mean Responsible Government, as some Honour- able Members hold. British Columbia will assuredly get Responsible Government as soon as the proper time arrives, as soon, that is to sa.y, as the commuuit.v is sufiiciently advanced In population, and in other respects, to render such a form of Government practically workable; sooner, probably, through Confederation than by any other means, and the sooner the betterj I say. But I do not think it desirable to fetter or cumber the proi)osed terms of union with anything about Resjionsible (Government, and specially for the reason that we should find it very difficult to arrive at any conclusion in favour of it. Great difference of opinion exists upon the subject even around this Council Board, and I am l)y no means sure that the strongest opposition to Responsible Government would come from the Government side of the House. It is easier to change the constitution after Confederation than before. ["No, no."] I'nder the Organic Act, this Colony could get Responsible Government. In fact, it is the special prerogative under this Act of each Province to regulate the constitution of its own Executive Government and Legislature; and whence this desire to act so prematurely now in this respect? Another Honourable Member has told you that in his opinion Confederation means the terms — means a Railway; but I take it. Sir. that the terms proposed result from Confederation, and that the Railway is a means to the end, for we cannot have real Confederation without a Railway. But, Sir, I advocate Confederation on principle; and I believe the terms to be the natural result of Confederation. They flow from it as a natural consequence, as the effect proceeds from the cause. I believe that by Confederation we are to gain those advantages which are set forth in the terms. If it could be shown that by acceptance of these terms we should in any way sacrifice our honour — lose any political status that we now enjoy — I would not support Confederation If it brought a dozen railroads. But I believe that each member of this connnunity will be raised by the change. We shall have a distinct and very resi)ectable representation in the House of Commons and Senate. AVe shall have as rer»resentatives there men whose voice will be heard, men whose duty if will be to s])eak for us. Far from entertaining the views exjiressed by the two Honourable Members for Victoria, I am inclined to thiiik with the Honourable Member for New AVesfminster, that this Colony will liave its due weight and influence in the Dominion, that its rei»resentatives will be lieard and listened to in the Canadian I'arliament, and that this will be a favoured portion of the Confederation, when admitted, on account of its position as the outlet of Canada on the I'acific. I do not, then. advocaTe Confederation specially on account of the terms. I find in its general merits ample grounds for sup[)ort. and I consider, as I have said, that the terms follow as a matter of course. The Hcmouralile Member for A'icforia has said tliaf we arc bound to jivovc the benefits. It is difficult to prove anything to some minds. Tlie benefits of Confederation are among those things which, being in futurity, we cannot prove. I cannot prove that which lias not happened. We can only rely on human judgment and experience, and argue that such and such things will occur, as certain causes will produce certain eftects. I. and other Official Members of this Colony, have a considerable interest in this Colony; I have, to a certain extent, identified myself with it and its concerns for some years past, and speaking as an individual Member of this Confederation Debate. 23 Council, if I did not lielieve that Confederation wonld prove advantaseons to tliis Colony, and redound to the benefit of our local interests. I should not support it by my voice. I niiybt as a (ioveruiuent servant vote for it as a (Tovernnient measure, but I should not be standing here to speak for it and to advocate it as heartily as I do. It is hardly possi))le to show where the Colony will be benefited by Confederation, without discussiuj; the terms, which is not my present intention to do; but I promise Honourable ^fembers that if these Resolutions get into Committee, I will fully satisfy them of the local advantages that must accrue to the Colony from union with Canada, on the terms proposed in these Resolutions. I believe, Sir. that many of the objections whicli have been raised to Confederation have arisen from prejudiced feelings. I have no reason to be prejudiced against or partial to Canada. I believe that Canadians as a people are no better than others, and no worse. I have no ties in Canada, no particular reason for entertaining any feeling of affection for Canada; and if I did not believe that the advance which we make will be met in a becoming spirit. ['"Hear, hear,"] then I should be of opinion that Confederation would be nothing more than an union on paper, one not beneficial to this Colony or to Canada. There are statesmen there. Sir, who know that it would l)e useless to try to beat us down on terms ; for what would be the use of Confederation if it afterwards turned out that this Colony was injured, rather than benefited, by it. The Honourable Junior ]Mem])er for Victoria asks what guarantee have we that the terms will be carried out. I say at once. Sir. that if the terms are not carried out, if the Canadian Government repudiate their part of the agreement, we shall be equally at liberty to repudiate ours. [Dr. Helmcken — "How?"] We should. I maintain, be at liberty to change; but I, for one, do not approach this subject with any such feeling. [" Hejir. hear." from Mr. DeCosmos.] There are always two sides to a bargain, and if the terms which are frankly and honestly proposed are not fairly and honourably dealt with, we should, in my opinion, be at perfect liberty to draw back. There is. however, one real and practical objection which has always suggested itself to my mind from the fii'st, and that is, that the same measures that apply to the circumstances of Canada, such as tariff, will not apply equally in all respects to this Colony. It will be asked, then, why is there no suggestion as to .some alteration or modification of the tariff" in the terms. The reason is somewhat sinnlar to the reason for the omission of all mention of Responsible Government. You would find it very ditiicult to come to any conclusions on this subject in this Council. It is impracticable to define now positively what precise tariff would best suit this country. Some favour a free iJort. I should be inclined to favour it myself if I believed it practicable. Some, on the other hand, say that we nuist have protection to agriculture, and that without it we cannot compete with the farmers of Oregon. This point was fully discussed in the Executive Council, but it was decided to omit any conditions for the regulation of Customs dues from these terms: and I do not think that this measure ought to be complicated with the tariff" question. I believe that we may safely trust this people with whom we are about to negotiate, to do as nuich for us in this direction as we could do for ourselves ; it will be to their interest to do so. It requires no argument to show that it will be to the interest of Canada, after ('onfederation. to advance the prosperity of this country. If it be possible to adopt a special tariff" to this part of the Colony, and I see no reason why it should nractical]y it is opposed to human nature; and in endeavouring to carry out elaborate and elevated views Great Britain stands a fair chance of losing the whole of British North America. Thus far I have treated of the general policy of the Organic Act. With respect to the applicability of the scheme of Confederation to this Colony I have more special and particular grounds of objection. I consider such an union inexpedient on several grounds. Confederation Dehate. 29 First, the remoteness of the Colony from Canada : Secondly, the comparative insiijnitlcance of British Columliia ; And. thirdly, the diversity of its interests from those of Canada. That these objections specially apply to the extension of the principle to this Colony no one can donbt. Lord Granville admits that the distance is an objection, but thinks that a Railway will annihilate time and space. lie thinks that the Government can be carried on at a distance of 3,000 miles without difficulty. This Eailway is to bridge over the vast desert that intervenes between this Colony and Ottawa. The notion that we can with any effect represent the interests of this Colony in the Parliament at Ottawa at a distance of 3,000 miles is to me absurd. With a population such as ours, even if we have the representation suggested by the terms, with eight Members of Parliament against one hundred and eighty-two, and four Senators against seventy-two, how can it be supposed to be possible that our voices could be heard? When Lord Granville spoke of " comprehensiveness " and " impartiality " in a Legislature, surely he must have lost sight of the constituent elements of a House of Commons. For let us consider, without any reflection upon the House of Commons at Ottawa, what is the nature of the House of Commons of England, or of any other asseml)ly of the same nature? Every House of Commons is but an assemblage of the Members of Parliament pledged to support the material interests of their constituents, whenever those interests are affected. I never can anticipate anything but the representation of the views and the material interests of constituents in any House of Commons. I believe that members would always vote according to the interests of men whose votes they would have again to solicit, and of whose interests public opinion holds them to be the acknowledged advocates. How can we find eight men in a place like this, where at all events the most valuable members of society are professional and business men, without selecting them from a class who are politicians by profession? Most men here are workers of some sort, and actively employed in their several professions and businesses, and we should have extreme difficulty in finding eight good men who would spare the time and expense to go to Ottawa. What we should want would be such men as are now at Ottawa, the principal business men, bankers, merchants, and profes- sional men ; but time and space will prevent this most valuable class of men from leaving British Columbia and representing our interests at Ottawa, and we shall be compelled either to retain the services of Canadian gentlemen, who, living in Canada, would be the British Columbian repre- sentatives only in name, or we should have to take eight representatives who v.-ill be content to make politics a profession, and we shall have to pay them for their services. To the insignifi- cance of British Columbia as a Province of the Douiinion the same remarks apply. Difference of interests is a still more material point. Fpon this point direct conflict is sure to arise. Canada belongs to the Atlantic, and looks to the Old World for her markets. We are a new country, our staples are totally different. Questions cannot but arise between British Columbia and Canada — between the East and the West — in which Canadian interests will prevail over those of British Columbia; and aggravated by the feeling of wounded pride and forced insignificance, tlie Colonists of British Columbia will feel natui'ally aggrieved. The Colonial feeling is well known — pride and attachment to the Mother Country and intense sensitiveness and tenacity where injustice or wrong is done. Once let this feeling be roused amongst us and it will not be long before British Columbia is clamorous for repeal ; and not obtaining It, the country will be ripe for any other change, however violent. Now, Sir, with respect to the third head of my objections. With respect to the mode in which the consent of this Colony is attempted to be obtained. I am surry to notice what I cannot but call a spirit of diplomacy, and a spirit of management, characterizing the whole movoment In favour of Confederation on the jmrt of the Imperial Government. It is obvious throughout that the Imperial Government desires to obtain their end and aim of Confederation in a mer- cantile spirit of bargain and sale, which jars ui)on my feelings of right and wrong. If this Council is properly the Legislature of P.rilish Columbia; if we reflect the intelligence, the substance, and the interests of the Colony, we ought to have originated these Resolutions ourselves. The matter should have ari.seu spontaneously amongst us, without any attempt at leading or forcing. What may be His Excellency's own views upon the subject of Confederation we cannot tell. I look upon Lord Granxille's despatch as a diplomatic order, couched in polite language, but nevertheless a rele Government. Can we doubt that the vote will be in favour of Confederation? The people of this country will sell themselves for the con- sideration of the present, and posterity will hereafter ask indignantly \Ahat right had we to shackle them, and to deprive them of rights which cannot be sold. We sliall reap the benefit, and those that come after us will reap the disadvantage and humiliation. It is not in the power of tlie present generation to dispose of tlie birthriglit of its descendants. Liberty and self-government are inalienable rights. The original vice of the matter still remains, and when once the material benefits are enjoyed or forgotten, and the consciousness of disadvantage is apparent, reaction will set in ; a party of repudiators and repealers will arise, who with great show of justice will clamorously demand the reversal of an organic cliange, founded on political error and wrong. .Vlthough our masrers at Ottawa maj' be ever so amiable and ever so pure, the moment we feel the yoke we shall repent; it is not in the nature of Englishmen to submit to tyranny of any descrii)tion ; and dissent such as our posterity will express, will l)e on only too sound grounds. 1 say. Sir, that this matter ought not to be brought forward now, wlien the country is in a state of de])ression, ready to catch at anything. Recourse should not be now had to Representative Institutions for the first time, when the obvious effect is the acceptance by this Colony of a confederation which carries with it direct, immediate, pecuniary gain. Few liave the self-denial to reject a bait so invitingly dangled before their eyes. If the Colonists are to be trusted with Representative Institutions. for the puri»ose of effecting so important and radical a constitutional change, why are they not to be trusted with Representative Institutions altogether'.' It is notorious that the Colony is, probably with justice, considered by the Inij)eri;il Authorities unfit for full Representative Insti- tutions, and that a Council, with a i)redominant ofiicial element within it, is the only fit body to deal with iniitortant (luestions. Yet this Council is to be differently constituted, and the ultimate terms to be accepted by the people alone, for the sole purpose of forwarding the cause of Confederation. The whole scheme for effecting Confederation is but a scheme of tenii>tation very difficult to forego, though it nuist be admitted recoiirse is not had to actual or practical force and obligation. I have delivered my honest opinion on this nnitter. Uhvntvi (Iiuiikidi niciiin. I feai' at great length. But I have spoken according to my conscientious convictions and a spirit of the truest loyalty. I am desirous to itromote the interests of the British Nation; and I believe the present movement puts them in great peril. I have given you the best jiroof of my sincerity. I have spoken against my own interests. I liave material interests in this Colony which will greatly benefit by the movement which will ensue from the l)uildiiig of a Railroad and a Dock. The interests of friends and connections who are dear to me will be nuicli benefited; and those who know the world tell me that it would liave been nuich ))etter for me if 1 had bent before the storm which I cannot avoid; that the honours and rewards of my professicm are not likely to be bestowed uiKjn one who is no friend to a popular, an Imperial, and a Canadian movement; but I cannot act against political conviction. I am here to give honest counsel, and I have done it, come what may. Confederation Debate. B] The question lias always appeared to me to be tins : — Confederation with England, which we have; Confederation iu its truest sense; Confederation with all the security of protection, and all the pride of self-government, now or hereafter to be, when the Colony shall have population and wealth sufficient: or Confederation — or, as it should l)e termed, " Incorporation " — with Canada. Incorporation with a country to which we are bound by no natural tie of affection or duty, and remote in seograpliical position, and opposed to us in material interests. Incor- poration with all the humiliation of dependence, and to my mind the certainty of reaction, agitation, and discontent. Canada can never become the asxif/ncc, the official a-^isiijucc, the Doiriiing Street official affsif/iicc of the affection and loyalty which exists between this depend- ency and the Mother Country. I am opposed to the political cxtiiictiou of this Colony, and its subservience to the will of a majority of the House of Conuuons at Ottawa, and the admin- istration of its affairs l)y the political adherents of Canadian statesmen. And all this for what? For " material benetits." for a money consideration, in which the ring of the dollar only faintly conceals the clink of the fetter. I am grieved at the mode in which the change is sought to be effected, and view the bargain and sale of political independence for ourselves and our descendants for a few dollars in hand, and a few dollars in the future, as equally shameful and void. Railway or no railway — consent or no consent — the transfer of Legislative power to Ottawa, to a place so remote in distance and in interest, is an injustice and a i>olitical extravagance which time will most surely establish. The Hon. Mk. DeCOSMOS, Member for Victoria District, then rose and said : — ^Ir. President, I congratulate you. Sir, and tliis House upon the noble work on which we are engaged. We are engaged, I believe, in Nation-making. For my part I have been engaged in Nation-making for the last twelve years — ever since I have been engaged iu politics in the Colony. [Hon. Registrar- General — "You have not made a Nation yet."] The Hon. Registrar-General says that I have not made a Nation yet. I need only, in reply, quote for his enlightenment the old adage "Rome was not built iu a day." [Laughter.] In the humble part that I have taken iu politics, I have ever had one end in view. I have seen three Colonies united on the Pacific Coast. [Hon. ;Mr. Helmckeu — "Three?"] Yes, thi'ee : Stekin, Bi'itish Columbia, and Vancouver Island; and if I had had my way, instead of the United States owning Alaska, it would have been British to-day. I have advocated the union of those three Colonies, and in tlie union of two of them particularly I have taken a prominent part. For many years I have regarded the union of the British Pacific Territories, and of their consolidation under one (Government, as one of the steps preliminary to the grand consolidation of the British Emi)ire in North America. I still look ujion it in this light with the pride and feeling of a native-born British American. From the time when I first mastered the institutes of physical and political geograjthy I could see Vancouver Island on the Pacific, from my home on the Atlantic; and I could see a time when the British Possessions, from the United States boundary to the Arctic Ocean, and extending from the Atlantic to the Pacific, would be consolidated into mw great Nation. Sir. my political course lias been unlike that of most others iu this Colony. Allow me to illustrati' my ni(>aning by tlie use of another old adage, ^ly course has been that of " beating the bush whilst others caught tbe bird." My allegiance has been to principle, and the only reward I have asked oi' sought has b(>en to see sound political ]irincii>les in operation. There- fore, Sir, I say again that I congratulate you and this Honourable House on the noble work on which we ai'e all engaged. We are here. Sir. la.ving the corni'r stone of a gi'eat Nation on tlie I'acilic Coast. Wh(>n we look at past liistory. we find some nations that date IJieir origin in the age of falile; some have been produced b.v violence, and extended their emjiire by conquest. I'.nt we are engaged in building up a great Nation in the noon-da.v light of tlie nineteentli century, not l»y violence, not by wrong, but I hope. Sir. by the exercise of tliat roninion sense wliiili the Honourable gentleman who jireceded me called statesmanshiii. It was not my intention yesterday to have taken ni> tlie atttMition of this House with any remarks until we were in Conmiittee of the Whole, although I have taken, for historical purposes. ami)le notes of the debate. Allusions Imve. liowever, been made during the course of this debate, amongst others to myself. I am, therefore, conq)elled to cr.ave the Indulgence of the House for a time to set myself right before this Council and the country, and to add my 32 Confederation Debate. humble oiiiniou to those around me in favour of the consideration of tliis question in Com- mittee of the Wliole. I shall support the general principle of Confederation [Hear, hear], as I have always done, if we get to the discussion of the terms proposed. First, Sir, let me allude to some of the statements of the Honourable the Attorney-Oeneral (Mr. Crease) and the Chief Conunissioner of Lands and Works (Mr. Trutch), and to the Honourable Executive Member for Victoria City (Mr. Helmcken). Sir, I know something about the history of Confederation. T'p to the opening of this Session Confederation has been a subject of agitation. It may properly be divided into several heads: Firstly, agi- tation ; secondly, negotiation ; thirdly, inauguration ; and fourthly, I hope, successful operation. Now, Sir, it is apparent that every act of mine in reference to Confederation, up to the time it was announced in Earl Cranville's despatch, up to the time His Excellency the Governor sent down his Message — every act of mine was in the line of agitation. It was with the view to bring about the consideration of terms with the Dominion Government; to hear what they would do; to bring the question before the people, and to canvass its defects and advantages, that I for one have agitated the question. In doing so I have come in for blows from open enemies and treason from false political friends. Sir, the era of agitation has now passed, and we advance to the era of negotiation. When I heard the Hon. Attorney-General, yesterday, invoking High Heaven: and when I heard him explaining the position of Official ^lembers upon this question; when I heard him state that he was always in favour of Confederation, there flashed across my mind one of the proverbs of Solomon, which I cannot refrain from repeating: " Such is the way of an adulterous woman; she eateth and wipeth her mouth and saith I have done no wickedness." [Laughter.] Sir. I resiiect any Honourable Member who will, if he sees reason to change his opinion, come down and frankly tell the honest truth ; but when an Honourable ^Member tries to make political capital out of other men's labour, I confess I do not respect him. On the contrary, such men as the latter, when officers of a Government, remind me of the remark of a celebrated French philosopher, who said : " That in all the mysterious ways of Providence there is nothing so inscrutable as his purpose in committing the destiny of nations to such creatures as these." [Laughter.] There are men in this Colony entitled to some honour; ii)endent nationality. Now, I come to the Hon, Member for Victoria City again. I really confess. ;Mr. I'rcsident. that I expected more sterling opi)osition from that Hon. gentleman. I thought we had here the modern Charles ]Martel. the celebrated armed warrior who had gone out to drive the Saracens — the Canadians — back across the Rocky [Mountains. I thought that he woidd have protested like Paul the Protestant. [Dr. Helmcken — "What became of St. Paul?"] I'aul was converted, and I hope the Hon. Member may share the same fate. [Laughter. 1 I expected the Hon. Member to have delivered a philippic, that would have done honour to Demosthenes when declaiming against Philip of Macedon. But, I really don't know but what he has been set up as a target by the Government — a man of straw — to draw the shot of all the Confederate i)art.v. I don't know why he was taken into the Executive Council. I thought that this Council was an united and imi)enetrable phalanx, but it seems that it is otherwise. What a hapjty family that Executive Council must be! The Member for Caril)oo and the Member for the City differ in their views, and both differ in this House from the IIonoural)le lOxecutive Councillors at the other end of the table. It is like Barnum's happy family. But the Honourable gentleman has told us some things wiiich are good, and besides that he is going to raise other issues. [Dr. Helmcken— "I?"] 3 34 COXFEDERATION DEBATE. Yes, the Honourable gentlouian said that the issue would be raised at the next election, between going to Canada and going somewhere else. [Dr Helmcken — "I said that I thought it very probable if mean terms were proposed by Canada, the people would raise other issues."] O! "the people." those much abused words. I believe in the people when the.v are right. But the Honourable gentleman (//(/ threaten to raise the issue of going somewhere else. Now, Sir. where else except to Canada could we go? The Honourable Member talks of the agri- cultural interests. Why, Sir, by going somewhere else, these interests from Comox to Sooke, and from Soda Creek and Kamloops to the Lower Fraser would be destroyed. The country would be flooded by produce from the United States. From Comox to Sooke, from the delta of the Fraser to Cariboo, the farming interests would be destroyed by going somewhere else. If that cfuestion came up. Sir, the farmers would (piickly put it down. The Honourable ^lember for Victoria City says that the question comes here by desire of Her ila.iesty's Government. Sir, I say. again, that it comes here by desire of the people, a large proportion of whom have asked Her Ma.iesty's (ioverument and the Government at Ottawa to bring it here. I am thank- ful that the (piestion of Confederation is here. The Honourable gentleman says it is a Ciovernment measure, and that the terms must be passed. I say, again, that I hope terms will be passed of such a character as will contribute to the prosperity and happiness of this Colony. The Honourable Executive Councillor says that this is a Government measure, and that it ought to be an open question. Why does he not retire from his seat then? I would not be a candidate for his place. [Dr. Helmcken — "There are no candidates. The Executive Council are appointed."] Then I am sorry for the choice that has been made. AVhy. Sir, the programme settled by Government would leave it virtuall.v an open question by referring the terms to a popular vote. I may have .something to say upon that hereafter. How patriotic will the Honourable gentleman be when he goes outside, and says that this nominative Council, presided over by a paid Colonial Secretary, have done this ! How very easy it is for an Honourable gentleman to talk about the autocracj' of GoA'ernment, when it suits him to do so. Look at his conduct in voting supplies. When my Honourable friend on my left (the Member for Lillooet) tried to bring in a Bill to repeal the Crown Salaries Acts, was he not choked off by the Honourable Member for A'ictoria City ob.iecting first? But I am only delaying the House. [Hear, hear.] The Honourable Magisterial Member for Victoria City says " hear, hear." Now, Sir. as far as I am concerned, the Honourable Member has my full permission to withdraw. [Laughter.] I have always been ready to take a British sul).iect vote on this question ; but the Honourable Member for Victoria has always dissented from that proposal. The Honourable Meml)er for Mctoria City has a remarkable way of putting things. But a few days ago he stated in this House, that if the people will only support the Government in getting the terms proposed, all will be right. I quote from the Colonist newspaper of 20th February, 1S70, in which the Honourable gentleman is made to say, " I hope the people will support the Government in trying to get terms." He now comes down here and opposes them. [Dr. Helmcken — " I don't oppose the terms, I oppose Confederation."] A distinction without a ditTerence. The Honourable Executive Councillor says the time is inopportune. I say. Sir, that now is the time. If the new gold discoveries, which have been mentioned in the course of this debate, really exist, now is the time to confederate, and to take means to attract and retain population. I, Sir, have spent five years of my life in the mining districts of California, and have helped to build up town after town; but how are they now? Many of those towns which had their 5.000 inhabitants have almost none now. It will be the same with our gold-mining towns. I fear the Honourable gentleman will always say the tiine is inopportune, not only before the population arrives, but when it is here, and after it goes. If we can make a good bargain with Canada, by all means let us make it, and make it now. I like the word bargain, it .sounds like bushiess. What did the IIonoural)le Meml)er for Victoria say at the last election? — "Don't let us have Confederation, for we shall have a surplus revenue of $100,000 in 1SG9, and we will do better without Confederation." Confederation was inopportune then. There was a large deficit or falling off in the rsi)erous. There. Sir, lies the key-stone of Confederation! If the terms between P>ritish Columbia and Canada do not protect the farming interests, the largest ainl the only permanent interest in this Colony, Confederation will do no good. If it does not protect the farming interest, I vote against Confederation, first, last, and all the time. It would be most unwise to join Canada without protection. Wc must have a control over certain imports in the terms, for a protective tariff" is the only inducement to farmei-s to remain upon the soil. We depend upon them to Ituild up a permanent interest in the comilry. tliat will last for ever. We most certainly do want extension of connnerce, Imt the true mode to obtain extension is to add to its volume internally. First, I believe in developing internal trade and industry; 3G Confederation Debate. next, I lioliove in external trade. Allow these terms as broufrlit down by the Government to pass, and in a few years you will reduce Vletoria to the position of a mere smugsliiifr village. Protection is a necessity. So lonj; as there are nations and national interests, so long will it be necessary to liave laws to protect those interests. Allow me, Sir. on this point to say tliat there is a great revolution in the value of realt.v. capital, and labour connnencing on the Pacific Coast. The etpialization of tlu*value of realty, capital, and labour has conunenced. The whole tendency of events in the countries to the south of us is to er spirit; and the Honourable Member for New AVestminster says that it is one of the most important (juestions. I hope, therefore, that the subject will have due weight with them. The Government of Canada, according to the proposed terms, would give us a surplus revenue of $200,000. [Dr. Helmcken— " No."] The Honourable Member says no. He may be right. But upon the calculation that we shall have $200,000 surplus revenue. I say that this subsidy will be ctiuivalent to four hundred farmers, who earn in the Colony $.">00 each, annually. By taking off protection from our farmers, to get the $200.00(», we would injure the country instead of l)enetiting it. But get the surplus of $2(K).000, and at the same time protection for our farmers, and we will do a prosjierous business under (Confederation. This is what we have to arrange, what we have to get into the terms. [Dr. Helmcken — "All right! I will help .vou.'"] I would say that " extremes meet." for I now meet my Honourable friend (I mean political enemy) [" No, no."] to secure protection. I do not see. with the Honourable Member for Victoria City, that we can get all we want without Confederation by a judicious arrangement of our own tariff. I can show that Avhat we want most in this Colony is population, and that population employed in a rennuierative manner. Isolation will not secure population. Confederation on proper terms will give us population ; will give us means to employ labour remuneratively ; wiTl enlarge our com- merce, and build up our industry. If it give us public works. — if it give us a railroad from a point on the Fraser, below Yale, to Savona's Ferry on liake Kamloops, — and if we connect Lake Okanagan with the Spel-mah-cheen River, by railway, which is only about thirteen miles, — not only will the whole country from Osoyoos Lake, on the boundary, behind the Cascades, be ojx'ned up and connected with our chief commercial city, with a cheap and speedy means of transportation, but all this tract of country traversed by the railwa.vs and lake, communication will be utilized In producing wheat and wool, and other articles for exportation. Victoria, then, will be built up, and will be the chief connnercial city of British Columbia, with all other parts of the Colony tributary to her. Tliis is what Confederation on proper terms will do for us. The Honourjible INIember for Victoria said that no lasting union could be maintained, unless the interests of British Columbia are preserved. If I look (for argument sake) at these things from a Canadian point of view. I find that by serving the interests of British Columbia, the interests of Canada will be served. Canada, as well as British Columbia, will benefit by a protective duty here. Canada will get the revenue under protection, and British Columbia will have its industry protected from foreign competition. And there is no reason that we should not have our interests protected. [Dr. Helmcken — "The Organic Act says no."] The Organic Act says no such thing. Confederation is diversity in unity: really and essentially a general unity, and an application of law to diverse interests. First, we find that New Brunswick, under the Organic Act. gets a temporar.v sulisidy of $(i.*].000 ])ei- aninnn. None of the other Provinces receive any temporary subsidy under that Act. New Brunswick is allowed to collect export dues on lumber. All the other I'rovinces are prohibited from levying dues on lumber. Now, if New Brunswick gets an additicnial subsid.v. and levies a luml)er tax ]irohibited to the other Provinces, why cannot P.ritish Columbia get exemption from uniformity in her favour? Nova Scotia gets two subsidies, etiual to $1(;(),()00, which are not in the Organic Act. The Crown law.vers say that tlie grant is not unconstitutional. This is a noted exception, made to satisfy the Nova Scotia repeal party. Another exception is found in the compulsory provision that appointments to the Judiciary shall be made from the Bar of the Provinces for which the appointment is made, till the laws and COXFEDEUATIOX DEBATE. 37 practice are assiuiihited. If the Oi-ganic Act is wroii.ir. I say chaiiiie the Act. But I l)elieve that I have successfully showu thaf exceptions have been and can he made under the Organic Act. Now, let us see what this horrilile Canadian tariff is. It is too high on cattle for us; not high enough on l)acon, butter, cheese, and lard by a few cents ; and imposes nothing on hay, hops, and grain of all kinds. I explained the whole to my constituents, at eleven meetings, and they said, get these few alterations made to suit us, and we will support Confederation. So we must have an alteration. Why, Sir, under the English Constitution different tariffs can be imposed. Look at the difference in the excise spirit duties that were levied formerly in Scotland and England, for instance. As a lawyer, not as a .Indge, I give my opinion that we can have one tariff in British Columbia, and another in the Atlantic I'rovinces. under the Organic Act ; and if the Act does not allow it. then we must alter it. I have already given notice of motion respecting protection for our farmers and manufac- turers. I desire to add a resolution to the proposed terms, keeping the power in the hands of the Local Legislature to impose a tax on certain imports, in case the tariff be too low. AVith respect to brewers, the tariff can easily be arranged so as to protect them ; and the Honourable Member for New Westminster has answered the objection to the Dominion fishery laws. As for commerce, that common sense that the Hon. Mr. Woods calls statesnianshii). will settle that ; for if Confederation would injure the commercial interests of British Columbia, it would also injure the interests of the Dominion. The Honourable Member for Victoria City has said a great deal about centralization. But I say. Sir. that there must be a centre somewhere. AA'e cannot have it in British Columbia, and a centre would be no worse in Ottawa than in Washington. The Pacific Coast, so far as the United States are concerned, is represented at Washington, which is not so large a city as New York. Representation is one of the most important elements in free Governments ; and as it has been urged by the Hon. Mr. Wood and others, that British Columbia would not be heard in the Canadian Senate or Commons, and that our small delegation would be crushed and out-voted, I will briefly examine the subject. Now. Sir, the whole of the Pacific States of the I'nited States have only twelve Representatives in Congress — six in the Senate and six in the House of Representatives. California has two Senators and three Representatives ; Oregon, two Senators and one Representative ; Washington Territory, one Delegate ; and Nevada, two Senators and one Representative. Now. it is proposed in the Resolutions to grant to British Columbia twelve Members — four in the Senate and eight in the Commons — a number equal to the whole represen- tation of the Pacific States, with 1,000,000 people, in the United States Congress. Again, there ax'e only five States that have more than twelve Members in Congress. They are New York, Pennsylvania. Illinois, Indiana, and Ohio. Take another glance at the representation of the States most remote from Washington. Texas has five Members; Florida, three; Maine, seven; and California, five. Remoteness and small numbers have never caused any of these States to be treated unfaii-ly. Under the i)opular system of government there, the small States do not go to the wall. Has little Delaware gone to the wall? Has Rhode Island gone to the wall? No; neither would British Columbia go to the wall in the Parliament of Canada. The Government of Canada is based on the i)oi)ular will; and that is the highest of guarantee that we shall be treated fairly by the Dominion. I have never heard of Scotland being injured l)ecause she had a smaller representation in Parliament than I'higlund. [Hon. Mr. Wood — "Yes. yes. Two revolutions followed innnediatel.v ui)on union."] Yes; but that don't affect my ])roposi(ion. A little blood-letting, however, din^s no barm occasionally. I would not object to a little revolution now and again in British Columbia after Confederation, if we were treated unfairly; I'or I am one of those who believt> that political hatreds attest the vitality of a State. [Hear, hear.] The Honourable and learned Menibm- for Victoria says that all power will be taken away by Confederation. AVhy, Sir, the Honourable gentleman cannot have read the Organic Act. For he will find the exclusive powers of the Dominion and the Provinces clearly set fortii in it. Then. Sir. on the question of guarantee for the fullilnient of the conditions by (^anada. there appears to be some misappreliension in the Ilonouralile gentleman's mind. In point of fact, we have a guarantee from the Imperial Goveninient. If the Dominion refuse to keep the terms and repudiate their ])art of the bargain, we can niij'eal to the Imperial (Jovernment to release us. 38 COXFEDERATION DeF.ATE. [Hon. Mr. Wood — " Let us have it in blaclc and white."] Why. let the Act be repealed and down go the terms. The .sovereign power is in the rarliauient of England. It made the Act. and if it is violated without redress, it can repeal it, and the power of Canada ceases. The Honourable and learned Member for Victoria City has referred to the possibility of a Fenian invasion, and said what will become of the Railway in such an event. I believe, Sir, on such an extraordinary occasion, such as invasion, each one in the Colony would be patriotic enough to do without a few miles of Railway, until the invasion may be put down. It has been asked what is the gain under Confederation. At pre.sent we have no surplus revenue. But with Confederation on equital)le terms, there will be a clear gain of $.384,000 annually from subsidies and reduction of tariff; therefore, as $3.S4.0(J0 is to nothing, so is Confederation to Isolation. There are a great many points to which I could allude were I disposed to trespass longer on the time of the Council ; but I reserve them until we go into Committee. There are, however, some few things to which I will passingly allude. It is important to British Columbia to know what will be the qualitlcation of Members to the Dominion Parliament [Hear, hear, from Dr. Helmcken] and the qualification of electors. And with reference to the Local Constitution, it may be necessary for us to know whether our Governors cannot be elected as in the I'nited States, instead of being appointed on the English principle; and whether we may not acquire the right to pass local laws over the veto of the Governor, by a two-third vote of the Legislature. The usiwy laws, imprisonment for debt, and many other matters will require careful consideration and attention. With respect to the main principle, I am in favour of Confederation, provided the financial terms are right in amount, and if the other terms will contribute to the advancement and protection of our industry. If we cannot get favourable terms, which I believe we can, it will then be for the people of this country to say whether we shall remain in isolation or seek some other more favourable union. The debate was here adjourned until Friday, at 1 o'clock. Friday, 11th March. 1S70. The debate was resumed by the Hon. Mr. RING, who on rising was greeted with cries of " Spoke, spoke." Hon. Mr. Ring said : — Sir. I have only spoken to the amendment, and have a right to speak to the original motion. Doul)ts were expres.sed as to the Hon. gentleman's right to speak a second time, but the Presiding Member was not called upon to decide, and Mr. Ring proceeded : — Sir, the Hon. Member for Victoria District commenced by congratulating the Council on having the grand question of Confederation now before them. He congratulated them on the great advantage of being able to grapple with a great (luestion like this. I cannot conqiliment him on the way in which he introduced his .subject. I admire his perseverance, and confess that on many sulijects he enlightens Members on both sides of the Plouse. I lament to find that having alluded to the opening speech of the Attorney-General, he thought fit to cast unwarrantal)le imputations upon that gentleman and the members of the Government. He suddenly turned aside and quoted a text, which he applied to the OflBcial Members of this Council. He likened one of them to a woman who forgets her modesty and shame, and goes after lovers for bread ; to her who has a harlot's forehead, and refuses to be ashamed. Sir. I deprecate such allusions ; they thi-ow no light upon the subject. I think that an Honourable and grave body like this, on hearing such charges, should have at once risen to express their indignation rather than have condoned it by their silence. Nothing is more easy than to take any one act of a man. or of a body of men, and apply it to a sinister motive, when it is capable of an honourable one. Sir, I was very glad that the Hon. Attorney- General had the courage to follow the exam]>le of the English House of Commons. He. finding COXFEDEUATION DeHATE. 39 no Chaplain to this House, supplied the defect by iuvukins the blessing of God, which was met by a sneer. I say I admire his courage in fronting a godless age, by the invocation of the blessing of Him in whom we live and move and have our being. He was not ashamed to acknowledge the controlling power of Heaven over the destinies of this fallen Colony. Now. Sir. the Attorney-General descanted at great length on the advantages of Union. He put that as the basis of the Government proposition. There is nothing like Union he says ; this is a noble sentiment which all must join in. Everyone would welcome that compre- hensive brotherhood which embraces all civilized Nations. I am sure that when the Hon. Member for Victoria alluded to the possibility of a prospective union with other Powers, he did not do so in the idea of this Colony abandoning its allegiance to the Crown ; because he expressed a wish to see the desire of general union spreading, is no reason that he should desire to shake off his connection with the Mother Country. Had it been otherwise. I should have deplored the Hon. gentleman's loss of loyalty. Some surprise has existed at the Hon. Member for Victoria offering suggestions as to the possibility of any other union. Why so? The Hon. Attorney-General himself gracefully iuti'oduced it. Why should not the English- speaking race live in peace and form one nation? The people of the United States spring from one common stock with ourselves. I long to see the time when all national sectarianism shall be swept away. My position as Menilier for Xanainio has been assailed in a cowardly way by what Is called the Press. I have been accused of shrinking from my duty to my constituents at Nauaimo, because I echoed their sentiments against Confederation. I a.sk the indulgence of the House whilst I allude to what occurred at Xanaimo at the last election. At that time the question of Confederation was rife throughout the Colony ; people's minds were agitated ; the people of Nanaimo were almost unanimous against it. In what I said to them during the progress of the election, and also on the hustings. I told them that I agreed with their views against Confederation, but that when it came before the Council I should give it my best attention. It was not made a test question at my election. The people of Nanaimo are still of their original opinion; and, therefore, I express their opinion now. against this measure; and say that their convictions are against Confederation, noitwithstanding the " No, noes " of certain Hon. Members. There may be some amongst them. Canadians by birth and principle, who desire Confederation, who. though they are here, can say with the poet: — " Where ere I roam, whatever realms I see. My heart untravelled fondly turns to thee." Thus much for Nanaimo. Now. I say. Sir, that the (piestion of Confederation ought to be fully and ami>ly discussed in this House, and to do this there should be a full House. I deny that it is the desire of the people to have Confederation, but I say let the jieople have an opportunity of expressing their opinions in this House. Let the disfranchised districts have first restored to them the rights of which they have been defrauded. The Governor has been Iietrayed into supjiosing that the people want Confederation, and assuming this to be true, he says I shall now give the people an opjtortunity to discuss the terms. But let the Franchise lie restored, then let the general (luestion of Confederation come hefore an enlarged re]>resentation ; and I .say that Confederation should be put alone, aye or no. Shall we have Confederation? and not ui)on what terms shall we have it. The i>roper course is to dissolve the House, issue new writs, and let the people say whether they want Confederation ; and after they have said yes. then de,scend into the particulars of it. A Govern- ment measure is now i)roposed. we are bound hand and foot, and handed over to Ottawa. I say, Sir, that l)eing so handed over, we ought to let our ma.sters settle the terms for us. I, therefore, venture again, Mr. President, to repeat that if it is to go abroad that the people desire Confederation, then the House should be dissolved, and a fair vote taken. The Hon. Member for Victoria District puts it as if the voice of the peoi)le had been heard. I ask how? Through newsi)ai)ers? Conventions? Sjjeeches? I say this is not the proper way. Let the peojile speak in this House, through a full body of Representatives of their own choosing. The question has been amply ventilated in this Council. The Hon. Member for Victoria City has gone fully into what he considers the difhculties. He has been met on the other side in a manly and able reply by the Hon. Chief Connnissioner of Lands and Works, who has been again met by the Hon. Mr. Wood. 40 CONFEDKIIATION DERATE. It is not for me to so into the question of terms now; but I deny emphatically that Confederation is desired hy the people. My own consitituents are against it; many other constituencies are, as I believe, against it also. I ask. then, why should the (Jovernment attempt to force tliese Itesolutions upon us, by means of the Official Members, who are only suiireme in numbers? The people have had no opportunity to express their wish. Diflicnlties have been presented by an Hon. Member, arising from the space between British Columbia and Canada — difficulties arising from the means of transit, and from the means of connnunication being cut off — diffi- culties arising from what is at present called the rebellion in the North-West Provinces; that strife, as I am informed, gathering strength day by day. [" Xo, no," from Mr. DeCosmos.] Hon. Members say "No, no." I am so informed. I hoi)e it is not so. l)Ut if it be, then under the name of Union we are called upon to take part in this internecine war. I long for union as much as any man. In union of good there is strength and victory, but in union of evil there is defeat and disaster. I shall not occupy the time of this Council in adverting to matters which have been am])ly discussed; in expressing my conscientious opinion I do my duty. The Hon. Mr. Wood has told us that he counts ])rofessional honours as nought. I say nothing of prior claims to professional honours which I have lost, from, at all times, conscientiously supporting what I conceived to be light. His Excellency says that we are not fit for Responsible Government. I want to know on what local data he says so? Who has tried the people? On the scope of whose mind is it said they are not fit? Who has examined them? The Hon. Member for Victoria District has properly said, if Hon. Members were paid for their attendance in the House, you would socm see whether men were capable or not to enter upon and fulfil the duties of Responsible (iovernment. Then we should see whether the gentle- men disguised in mean apparel — (iraduates of Oxford, Cambridge, and other Universities — who have cast their lot in this Colony, but are unable to defray their travelling expenses from remote places to the Capital. We should see, I sa.y, whether they were capable, or not, of enlightening and controlling by their wisdom the feeble powers of Governmental diplomacy. Sir, by enlarged I'epresentation we shall discover such men. We had one foot forward in the direction of freedom, it has been forced back. The franchise has been taken away. .Sir, I have very feebly endeavoured to touch upon these subjects. In fine, I affirm that the matter has not beei\ discussed fairly. There must Ix' an enlarged representation, that the people may tell the Government what they want. Hon. Memlters who have .supported Confederation have failed in sliowing that this is the time for it. They are afraid to ask the people. They have refused to do so. Much has been said ; more will be said. I have listened, and have heard high-sounding words, and inflated tautology of this and that Hon. Member, which reminds me of soap-bubbles, which, though beautiful by the reflection of tlie sun's prismatic colours, are equally remarkable for their rotundity and their em])tiness. The Hon. Mr. BARNARD said: — Sir, in rising to support the motion of the Hon. and learned Attorney-General, I can but express my feelings of pleasure in being permitted to take a part in the great work in hand — that of hewing off the rough corners of the block which has come to us from the hands of the Executive, and which, after receiving the finishing touch at the hands of the people, will become the key-stone of the great Confederation arch which will, ere twelve months, extend from ocean to ocean. The terms as sent down by His Excellency are, I consider, a lair sul).1ect of congratulation. The manner in which they have been received by this House and the jieople is another subject of congratulation ; and the jiaucity and utter idleness of the arguments used by the opposition, represented in this House as it is liy the talent of the opposing party in the country, are also subjects of congratulation to His Excellency, this House, and the country. It is wrong, Mr. President, to charge the desire for Confederation on the i)art of its ])romoters to a desire for change. So far as my constituency and tlie adjoining one« on the Mainland are concerned. I may say safely that such was not the case — we accepted the Organic Act constituting this Council, and agreed to work it out to its legitimate end; and we have not countenanced nor have we been subjected to the many changes which other parts of this Colony have. T desire, before going further, to allude to a charge commonly made against my countiTmen— often offensively put — but yesterday put by the Hon. Confederation Debate. 41 Mr. Wood, in his iisiuil Kontleiuaiily way. It is that of " Canadian proclivity." As ca native- born Canadian, iu common with others, I love the land of my birth. We admire her institutions and revere her laws; hut we never forget the land of our adoption, and we would no more consent to see her wronged by Canada than would the tens of thousands of Englishmen who have made Canada their home, permit a wrong to be done her by England. It is also wrong and contrary to fact that, " so anxiou>s are we for Confederation that we would accede to any terms proposed." During the past three years, I have been one of the foremost in advocating the cause of Confederation; and, in so doing, throughout the interior of the Colony, I am free to confess I never uttered such a sentiment; and. in justice to my fellow-countrymen iu particular, and the advocates of this cause in general, I will say that I never heard any one express a desire that this Colony should be confederated, except on such terms as might, on investigation, be found to be just and beneficial. We desire Confederation with Canada, because we believe that it will be to the interest of this Colony to unite with the progressive Colonies to the east. That they are progressive I assert, and as proof I point to the fact that, previous to Confederation, Canada proper had expended $184,000,000 on public works, principally in building canals. Up to 1S69, $170,000,000 had been expended in railways. She pays to-day $300,000 yearly for her ocean steam mail service alone, and her enterprise is followed by her people. Her manufactures are increasing yearly, and even now she is exporting cloths to England, and competing there with cheap labour. One firm alone, composed of men who landed in Canada penniless, now has $9,000,000 invested iu ocean steamers, employing 4..'500 men, and thus sustaining 22,000 persons. Among the objections urged by Hon. Members against Confederation is our proximity to the United States. This, I hold, is no objection. Canadians are not taught to fear competition with the United States. The general feeling there is that we can hold our own (except in point of numbers) with her in any direction whatever. It is to her we look for a great portion of our trade, and the advantages of such trade are mutual. The question is often asked : " What are the immediate advantages to be derived by us from Confederation?" My reply is that, in addition to the amount paid us b.y way of subsidies, we will save by a reduction in the tariff and l)y importing Canadian manufactures, a very considerable sum, thus reducing our taxation. Next, the terms propose that $1,000,000 he spent on a waggon-road to be commenced immediately and completed in three years, thus causing over .$300,000 a year to be spent. Hon. gentlemen will recollect that in 1801, 1802, and 1803, immigration poured in on us, caused by the report of rich discoveries in Cariboo, and by a knowledge on the part of those comhig that the Government was si)ending large sums on i»ul)lic works, and that those who failed in the mines might fall back on the roads to replenish their purses; and many who are now permanent settlers in the interior acknowledge that they made their "farm stake" there. How much more is this likely lo be the case if the larger works contemi»lated in the terms are carried out. Then. Sir. look at the construction of a Railway. You may judge of the magnitude of the work by the following tigures. There were employed on the Central I'acitic at one time 2rt.000 men and G.OOO teams; GOO tons of material were forwarded daily to the point of construction; 30 vessels in harbour at one time, loaded with material ; the wharves at San Francisco and Sacramento loaded with railway iron; 70 locomotives landed, and 700 c-u-s built to carry on the work on construction account; no less than 30 sawmills in oiK-ralion at one iK.Int at one time. The enteri)r!se that set this enormous trade in iiinlion is not one of gi-calci- m.-ignitude than will be the work nndci'takcn on tills side, and If oui- larnicrs .ind |H)|itilnt ion gcn(>rally do not profit, and that immcdi.ilcly. by the carrying' on of sndi cntcriu'lses as tliesc. let them succumb, for I know of no state of jirospi'rity that can help llicni. 1 contend the. IxMiefits of Confederation, in these respects at least, will he inunedlate. I'.ut lion. .Members luive said "the United States will derive the benefit." If that argument holds good, why not tell the merchants of Wharf Street to close their doors because foreign mannfacturers reai) :v l>art of the benefit of their trade. Better, a great deal, for the o])ponents of this cause to jidvis(> the farmers to cultivate every inch of their farms juid g:irner up Ihclr (•roi>s. for tlu> day assnrt'dly will come when they will have ampU' market for all they can r.ilsc. It has been urged here that Canada cannot retain her population, nnich less the innnigr.i- tion that comes to her shores. In this. Sir. there is considerable truth, although the lion, and 42 COXFKDEKATIOX DeP.ATE. learned ^leniber for Victoria has not put the matter fairly before this House. In j^iving the number of passengers going from Canada to the United States, ho has omitted to give you the number of those passing from the States into Canada. One reason why Canada has not retained the whole number of emigrants landed on her shores, is that they find greater attractions in the treeless prairies of the Western States than in the heavily timbered lands of Canada. This. Sir. has ever been a serious drawback to her. But now the case is different. Having acquired the vast territories of the great North-West, she will open them to settlement, and then she will have inducements to offer such as cannot be boasted of by any other country in the world. Open those millions of acres to the settler, and you will see such a rush of immi- gration — not only from the older countries of Europe, but from the United States — as will astonish the world, and stand unparalleled in the history of immigration. Canada's hardy sons who have left their homes for the Western States — allurtMl by the advantages of prairie over wooded lands — will join in swelling the numbers, and once more plant their feet on British soil. The ditlicultii's of defence have been spoken of as a foniiidable obstacle. Sir. she never regarded them in any such light. Canada has no fears in tliat direction. She relies on the thorough good understanding that has existed between herself and the United States for so long a period, as a guarantee for the future. Their interests are so identical that they cainiot afford to quarrel. The troubles between them heretofore have been on England's account, and not Canada's, as witness the lYent affair, and the more recent Fenian invasion, which was rather a stab at England than an attack on Canada. During the recent fratricidal war in the United States, Canada had a difiicult part to play in maintaining strict neutrality, yet she came out unscathed. It must be remembered, also, that Canada possesses in her canal sji-stem a iwwerful lever — a guarantee for peace — vastly more potent than fortifications. The great bulk of the iimduce of tlu> Western States finds its way to the ocean through Canadian channels, which could be closed at any moment. As to that "other issue" (I will not use the word tliat has been so freely used outside), I have no fears for Canada or this Colony either. It used to be fashionable here, in early days, to associate the name of Canada with rebellion. It was the i-esult of prejudice and ignorance, and was a great mistake. I recently read, Sir, an account of a meeting held in one of our principal Canadian cities, on the occasion of a Sal>bath school convention. An American gentleman was engaged in addressing the house, filled to its utmost capacity. In the course of his remarks, having occasion to refer to Her Most Cracious Majesty the Queen, he added: — "American though I am, I can with all my heart say, ' God bless the Queen.' " Immediately, Sir, without any pre- concerted action, the entire audience of men, women, and children rose to their feet and sung the National Anthem. That gentleman said, that such a spontaneous, hearty, and unanimous outburst of loyalty was probably never heard before. Such. Sir. is the kind of loyalty we were taught in Canada; sn<'h is the kind that is being taught to the rising generation of the new Donnnion to-day; and I leave it to you as to whether there is room for that " other issue " or not. Before concluding. Sir, I would wish to remark with reference to the charge made by the Hon. Member for Victoria District against tlie Hon. Attorney-General, that his conversion to Confederation was late. I know that it is impossible to make some Honourable Members believe anything good of Officials, whether in resjiect of Confederation or anything else. But I simi)ly desire to relate this fact. I had occasion to go into the Hon. Attorney-General's office in ]8()7, and he then showed me a letter, written by himself, in favour of Confederation; and after perusing that letter I felt convinced that when, in his estimation, the proper time arrived, the cause would have a warm and sincere advocale in the Attorney-General. I mention this in order to show that the Hon. Member for Victoria District has no right to arrogate to himself that he was the only man who was far-seeing enough to recognize the advantages of Confederation three years ago. and as a reproof to him for finding fault with the position taken by Hon. OfHcial Members on this question now. To sum up. Sir, I say that amongst the statesmen of Canada we may safely look for men fully competent to control the affairs of a young nation. They are men of as much ambition and gras]) of thought as are the rulers in the adjoining States; and, depend upon it, nothing Confederation Debate. 43 will be left undone to advance the prosperity and well-being of evei'y portion of their vast Dominion. We may safely repose full confidence in them. England has done so. or she would never have committed the well-being of four millions of her subjects to their care. They can steer the good ship "Dominion" and hold her on her way. She will receive many a shock. " but 'twill be of the waves, and not the rock."' The lion. Mr. HUMPHREYS, Member for Lillooet, .said:— Mr. President. It is not my intention to occupy the attention of the House at any great length. I shall pass in review rapidly the arguments for and against Confederation, as they have been used by Hon. Members who have spoken during the progress of this debate. It seems to me, Sir, that the people and their interests have been entirely ignored through- out the discussion of this question, and perhaps intentionally. I refer to the subject of Responsible Government ["Hear, hear,"' from Mr. DeCosmos], which has up to this stage been all but lost sight of. I. Sir. am one of those men who believe in the people. I remember that in opening this debate, the Hon. Attorney-General invoked the Divine blessing upon the work upon which we were then entering. This was high-sounding, and a very nice picture to look at, but it does not wear well without that strict attention to the divine rights of the people, which is inalienable from true political economy. I have a distinct recollection of most Hon. Members now occupying an officinl position at this Council Board, and of the positions which they occupied when first they came to this Colony. I have often a.sked myself what entitles these Hon. Members to govern this Colony; but I have never been able to answer myself satisfactorily. I am perfectly ready to admit the ability of Executive Jlembers as individuals. The learned eloquence of the Hon. Attorney- General has always, since I have had the honour to sit at this Council Board, impressed me with a deep sense of the advantage of thorough forensic training; and the power and force of the reply of the Hon. the Chief Commissioner has ever and again made me feel with especial force the utter hopeles.sness of combating stern official reticence with even the most brilliant ix)wers of oratory. Yet, Sir. whatever our admiration for individual excellence, however great our estimation of personal worth, the question has still remained unanswered, and, in my opinion, unanswerable. What is there in the collective wisdom of these Honourable Official Members that entitles them to arrogate to themselves the right to rule? Are they. I ask. the dominant race, and are the people serfs? We have heard a great deal about absorption, and the danger of the larger body swallow- ing up the smaller. I think about as inuch of that danger as I do of the other evil threatened in such earnest and thrilling language by the Hon. Member for Alctoria. namely, that our salmon would be under Confederation, and the protection from salmon nets that would be extended to them, increase and nndtlply to such an extent that' they would absorb all the smaller fish. I. howev(>r. to speak seriously, doubt very much if the Hon. Member can cite a single exami)le in history of the larger absorbing the les.ser, unless the larger possessed better qualifications, as in the case of the absorption by British Columbia of Vancouver Island. Sir, we must give up all personal prejudices, and we nuist bend our minds to the estMblishment of a great Britisli Emi)ire upon this Pacific Coast. Lord Macauliiy says that " Governments are made for the people, and not the ])eople for the Governments."" Yet. Sir. how different seems to be the course of reasoning in this Colony. Here we have a strange compound of sickly representation nnd unpoular dllicialdoiu. TIic w;int of Responsible Government has become intolerable; tb(> i)eople Ji.ive conscil to n-siiccr the Government, and the Government seem to be doing their l>est to educate the jieoplc up in hating the officials. There is to my mind, Sir. no necessity for the continuance of such a state of things; only let the jieoi^e's voice be heard, and there will be a change. The overwhehniug preiwnderance of the official element in this Council, and the presence in the Legislative body of officials who are paid by the people, iind yet are not responsible to them, is the real cause of the alienation of the hearts of the i)eoi)lo from the Government. The votes of these Hon. gentlemen must always oscillate between their own interests aiul what their own consciences dictate to tliem as for tlie good of the country. It is our duty, Sir, to bring back the hearts of the people. We must have a (4overinnent by and for the people. This is what I believe the people really require, and this and mor(>. if neccss.iry, the Government must be prejiared to give them. The ])eoi)le of this Cohmy will consent to no ;irrai)genient whicli has not for its 44 COXI'KDEKATIOX DEBATE. fomulation — Responsible Government. We nuist be prepared to pull clown and deinolisli the old structure, in order to rear up one that shall endure — as a Government secur" in the affections of the peo])]e only can endure. I warn Hon. gentlemen that they nuist endeavour to recover the wills of the people; then, and not till then, will return that prosperity which we all desire to see. I hope. Sir, that the Executive will nc)t attempt to make any arnin^rcinciit witli tlie Dominion Government which does not include popular self-j:overnment. The people will never accei^t Confederation without Responsible Government. We nuist first get the tree — Responsible Government — and we may .irtcrwards, with some reason, hope to get the fruit. I say. Sir, that it is a gross libel upon tlie intelligence of the I)eoi)le of this Colony, to say that we are not fitted for self-government. In no country can you find men better capable of governing themselves, and of managing their own affairs, than In this Colony. I hold. Sir. that the greatest enemies of the ))eoi)le are those who always endeavour to blazon forth their learning. I am jirond to say that I am of the people. My education, if not of so high a culture as that of some Hon. Meml)ers or this lIoust\ has at least enabled me, up to this time, to make my own way in the world, unaided by official pay and without the assistance of oflicial favour (u- influence. And when 1 hear Hon. Members speaking of the people as a class until for self-government. 1 find it dilticult to believe that such a set of men are the same .as have I)een spcviking b(>fore, in tliis House and outside, on Confederation. In conclusion. Sir. I say fearlessly that Responsible Government is a fst. .and 1 trust tliat 1 may be si)ar(>(l to see this consolidation consummated. With regard to the advantages that Confederation will bring to British Columbia, it is almost forbidden ground, for the advantages are in reality jtart of the Resolutions. If I allude to them I am forestalling the debate on terms; and as I should not be in a position to prove anything which is in futurity. I had perha])s better abstain from touching upon tlie subject. However, this much I will say. that, after sentiment and loyalty are disposed of. it becomes a question of advantage. The terms sent down to this IIous(>. in my o])iiiion. warrant our accei)tance of them in their entiretv; but if the House think otlu'rwise. I may. I am sure, go so far .as to say that Confederation Debate. 45 the Executive are open to receive sufijiestions. and that there will be no dbjectloii to adopt any suggestions which will not be likely to jeoi)ardize the success of the whole scheme. In this conviction. I do not propose to go over the ground that has already been taken up. But I must allude to what I cannot help calling the feeling of over-care and caution which has been displayed throughout this debate. I believe, Mr. President, that you are an Englishman, and as a nation I think you expi-ess too much caution, fear, and anxiety with respect to the course which Canada might pursue. I do not speak i^ersonally, but such appears to me to be the characteristic quality of English- men, and it has especially cropped out during this debate. I say that I believe we are ti'eating with a far-seeing, fair-dealing set of men who would never forfeit their word, statesmen who would be incapalde of offering " mean conditions." even if we of British Columbia would accept them. They will give us terms to make us hajipy and contented. Another reason for our feel- ing confidence in the future is that we shall have under these terms, as the Hon. Member for Victoria District says, an enormous i)roportion of Representatives at Ottawa, and I presume that each of these Representatives will ha\-e a voice and the gift of speech. It is fair to augur that the Dominion statesmen will give us what will make us contented and prosperous. In touching upon this point. I should like to make an historical allusion, and for example I would refer to the present condition of the Tnion between Great Britain and Ireland. [" Hear, hear," from Dr. Helmcken.] When Hon. gentlemen say " Hear, hear." they may think I have given an unapt illustration. We. however, know that the number of Ireland's representatives, amounting to something over one hundred, have enabled the Irish members of the British House of Commons to hold the balance of power and the bulk of patronage between the great contending political parties, and by swaying between the Gladstones and Disraelis, or other leaders of the day, they have freciuently been able to turn the scale so as to obtain what they desired, and to secure a liberal share of the patronage to office. I maintain. Sir, in this connection, that if British Columbia found that by reason of her small representation — large in comparison with the rei)resentation of the different States in the Congress of America — I say, that if British Columbian Members found that there was any disposition to tyrannize in the Dominion House of Commons, which I do not for one moment fear, they could make common cause with other small maritime Provinces against Canada proper. To quote the words of the Hon. Chief Commissioner. I believe that British Columbia will be a pet Province of the Con- federacy. I try. Sir, to avoid speech-making; the time for that will be in Committee. I do not hope to sway a single vote by any remarks that I make. I believe that every Hon. Member came here previously prepared to vote one way or the other, and I do not think any eloquent orators, and much less any feeble words of mine, will cause one of then\ to change his opinion. But I make a speech in order that ii record may be taken of it. and my constituents may be able to sec that I was not dumb. I believe, I say, that all Hon. Members came down with their opinions formed, as to whether the amendment of the Hon. and learned Member for Victoria, or the proposition of the Hon. and learned Attorney-General, which was so ably put before us, should be carried. I sincerely hope, however, that Hon. Members will join me in voting down the amendment, and in supi)orting the motion of the Hon. Attorne.v-CJeneral. This is. (>mphatic- ally, the question of the da.v, and the policy of the Government should meet with a liberal and warm support from every Member of this Council, in order that the question may be fairly brought before the peojjle for final decision. And here. Sir, with the i)ermission of tlic House. I will say one woi'd npuji ilu> course pursued by the Government. The ExeiMitive Counc-il have been actuated by motives of duty only. They have brought down these Resolutions, based on a broad view of the whole subject, .'ind they ask you to make suggestions and additions. | Dr. Helmcken — " No. they don't."! Yes, Sir. 1 maintain that the Executive do so. and I will maintain it with uiy Ir.st breath. The Executive are prepared to consider, and if |)ossil»l(> give effect to. every amenihnent or suggestion of this Council, provided it does not j(>opardize the success of the scheme with the Canadian Government. The final verdict must come from the ])("ople. and I can safely maintain that nothing could be fairer. Among things brought up in the course of this debate, the questions of TarilY and Respon- sible Government occupy prominent positions. I think the Hon. Member for Victoria District has taken right ground, when he said that it was competent for the Dominion Government to alter and amend the tariff so as to protect every vested interest in this Colony. I am no lawyer. 46 Confederation Decatk. but I l)elieve the Ctuiadiau statesiueu are sufficiently far-seeing to take care that not an interest in tliis Colony shall suffer by the Resolutions which we are about passing. With regard to the Dominion Tariff, people thought that the abrogation of the Reciprocity Treaty was the death- knell of the independence of Canada. I have lived, however, to see her inoi*e prosperous by that abrogation. It has taught her to develop her own resources, antl to become self-reliant. After she was prevented from going to the United States, by that abrogation, .she turned her attention to her own resources, and I believe she is now going to be one of the most progressive nations upon the earth. I'ndoubtedly. she is determined to progress westward, until she reaches British Columbia and the I'acific ; and with all her progressive tendency she will not abate one jot of the loyalty for which, now as ever, she is distinguished. Now, with regard to Responsible Government. [" Hear, hear," from :\Ir. DeCosmos.] I desire -to touch lightly ujion this subject in passing, because I have been told that my popularitj'- has suffered by some remarks to which I gave utterance in this House upon a previous occasion. Much as I value popularity, I nuist on this question express my honest and conscientious opinion as an individual. I believe that I was the first to break ground on the question of Responsible Government, in connection with Confederation. I did it, not hastily or thoughtlessly, but on conviction ; and I maintain that so long as I do it honestly, I am free to say what I please, as an individual, upon this matter. I do not believe. Sir. that, with our present population, with our people scattered over a A'ast extent of thinly populated country, and having regard to the various conflicting interests consequent on remoteness from the centre, the principle of Responsible Government cannot be satisfactorily applied to this community at present. I believe entirely in the ability and fitness of the Anglo-Saxon race to govern themselves; but I say that the time has not yet arrived under which that particular form of government, generally known as Respon- sible, can be satisfactorily worked in this Colony. I believe that the scheme foreshadowed by the Governor for Representative Government will be the best that, under present circumstances, the Colony can have. The popular members under that system will have a clear majority, and, consequently, the peoi)le will have the control of the purse-stiMngs. I do not speak these words as a member of the Executive Council, but as the expression of my own deliberate opinion. Sir, I was not sent here pledged to any particular platform. My constituents had confidence in me, and were content that I should act on my own judgment. Speaking officially, I say that Respon- sible Government is not a question of Union. The Act of I'nion gives us the exclusive right to alter our own laAvs with i-espect to everything connected with the internal and local Government of the Province, so long as the Federal prerogative, if I may so call It, Is not infringed. If the majority of the people want Responsible Government after Confederation, neither Governor Musgrave nor any other power on earth can prevent their having it. It is mifounded, unfair, and unjust, on the part of those who are opposed to the Government on the question of Con- federation, to endeavour to put any other complexion upon the matter. "With respect, Mr. I'resident, to the remarks about Cabinet Ministers and Executive Coun- cillors, which have fallen from certain Hon. Slembers, I will only refer to the work that the Executive have laid before this House. From the general approbation which has been tendered, both in this House and on the outside, to the terms of Confederation which have been sent down by the Executive, I think that I am fairly entitled to assume that our labour has not been In vain, and that It has given satisfaction. I thank this Council for the words Df encouragement and approbation with which they have accepted these conditions, especially those who have endorsed them. Xo one — not even the Hon. Member for Victoria City — can say that It Is not the wish of the people that this (piestion should lie discussed, and ultimately dealt with by the people. A charge has been preferred by the Hon. Memlter for Victoria District, against the Hon. Attorney-General and the Hon. Chief Connnissloner, to the effect that they had turned their coats and changed since they had given votes upon Confederation in this House upon a former occasion. If they have changed, I maintain that upon conviction tliey are not to be blamed for doing so. It was well known that the Hon. gentleman had stated, or at all events I have always so understood it, had a telegram, or some other information from head-quarters, moi'e than a year ago. to the effect that the Dominion Government were not prepared to negotiate terms of Confederation with this Colony, until after the settlement of the Red River question, which was then pending with the Hudson's Bay Conqiany. The Hon. Attorney-(Jeneral and the Hon. Chief Connnissloner took this same ground last year. They were of opinion that nothing could be COXFEDERATIOX DeuATE. 47 done to further Confederation satisfactorily, until the sovereignty of the Dominion was estab- lished in the North-West Territory. Both assured me privately that they were in favour of Confederation, and I say that they entered into the consideration of the scheme without mention of pensions being secured to them. "Who, I ask, are Confederates? The people most unquestion- ably; and could we, the people of this Colony, ever have made Confederation a successful issue unless it had been taken up by Government? His Excellency Governor Musgrave has done nothing but what Prime Ministers do every day, in making this a Government question. On the part of the Government, I cordially invite the assistance, co-operation, and earnest delibera- tion of all Members of the Council to the sclieme — a good one— and after we have done our best with it. we must leave it to the people. Before I close my remarks, Sir, I must allude to what fell from the Hon. Member for Victoria City, whose opinion and lightest remarks are always received and listened to by this House with the greatest deference and I'espect, and every wrinkle of whose brow is a notch In the calendar of a well-spent life, for whose character as an individual I have the highest reverence and esteem. I cannot but say, ho\^ever, that in my opinion, and I believe in the opinion of this House, what the Hon. gentleman did say about another possible issue was ill- timed, inopportune, and unhappy; and. Sir, I deem it my duty as a Member of the Executive Council to say, that if he did intend to foreshadow the idea that the other union, to which he made ill-timed allusion, could ever be an issue in this Colony, he entirely misrepresented the views of the Executive Council. In this connection I desire to say that, in common with the Chief Commissioner, I feel a great respect for our neighbours of the Great Republic. I honour the country and its institutions ; particularly I esteem the people of America in the exercise of national and domestic relations. They are true Anglo-Saxons. They are at this moment lavish- ing an amount of hospitality on Prince Arthur, which would do honour to any nation. But, whilst professing great respect for the people and for the Government of the United States, I confess that I do not like their political institutions. I have many friends in America, and I have spent some time there myself, in their military service, but I left America a greater Canadian than ever. And I say, Sir, that I deem the action taken by certain foreigners here, in getting up a petition, which has perhaps been brought into more prominent notice than it was entitled to, exceedingly unhappy, and I know that I speak the sentiments of my constituents when I say so. These foreigners have received every hospitality, and have been treated with respect and liberality in this Colony. They enjoyed all the rights and privileges to which they would have been entitled in their own country, and perhaps more ; they have acted foolishly towards the flag that sheltered them, and have abused the hospitality which has been extended to them in getting up this petition. If any British subjects signed it, I consider them unworthy of the name ; they would be better in the c'liain-gang. I nuist refer once again to the Hon. Member for Victoria Citj'. He said that patriotism was dead in this Colony; that interest and self-interest was paramount, and that the dollar was supreme, and was the only patriotism. [Dr. Helmckeu — "What? what? I said nothing of the kind."] I maintain that the words were used, and I say that the Hon. Member misunderstood or misrepresented the feelings of the people of this Colony in saying so. It is, perhaps, unbecoming in me, who have not the stake in the country, and who have not the status, domestic, monetary, or political, of most other gentlemen round this Council Board, and who have, comparatively speaking, but lately come to the Colony, to express an o])inion ; but never- theless I do say that patriotism is not dead iu this Colony, and that the people are as i)atriotic, noble, and generous-hearted as any other people in the world. Hon. Mr. Helmckeu — Sir, I rise to a question of privilege. I cannot allow the Hun. Member to make a speech about something I did not say without correcting him. I said that this Colony had no love for Canada; the bargain for love could not be; it can only be the advanceujent of material interests which will lead to union. Hon. Mr. Carrall — I maintain. Sir, that I have not in any way exaggerated what the Ibm. gentleman did say; and I conclude by saying that the people of British Columbia are loyal, honoural)le, and true, and when they give Ihcir adhesion to the Dominion llu'y will uphold the British flag, as they always have upheld — The flas that has hravod a lhou>-an(l yoars The l)attlo ami the breeze." 48 COXFEDERATIOX DEBATE. The Hou. Mr. ALSTON. Registrar-lieiieral. said: — Sir, T should not have risen to attempt to make a speech at this late hour, had it not been from the peculiar position which I occupy in this Council, and I feel that I ought to apologise for detaining the House, even for a few minutes, after the very exhaustive arguments on both sides have been heard with such patient attention. As I am neither one of the Executive, nor a Representative Member of this House. I have to satisfy my own conscience, and as it is probable 1 may not have another opportunity of expi'essing my opinion on tlie iirinw you that up to a late period mv constituents held the same views with regard to Confederation that they did some eighteen months a-o Confederation Debate. 51 Shortly after this petition liad been dispatched to Kootenay, as just meutioned, I wrote to my coiistitiieiits. re.000. and a further sum ecpial to SO cents a bead per annum of "the population; both payalile half-yearly in advance, the population of British Columbia "being estimated as aforesaid at 120,000. Such grant, e«iual to M) cents a head, to be augmented "in proportion to the increase of population, when .such may be shewn, milil the population "amounts to 400.000. at which rate such grant shall therenfter remain." The Hon. ATTORNP^Y-CJEXEKAL, in moving the adoption of tliese clauses siiid : — I wduld ob.serve that this estimated ]iopuIation of 120.000 is nominal, and has been arrived at by comparison of the revenue and iwpulation. because in tlie absence of actual census, and to facilitate financial arrangements, it has been deemed best to calculate according to the revenue producing powers of British Columbia compared with Canada. Thus we have it officially 56 CONFEDEUATION DEBATE. from Canada, that her Customs and Excise produced .$2.7") per head of her popuhition: at the same rate. .$2.7ri per head, our Customs represent the same present revenue as a popuhition of 120.000 Canadians produce. This estimate of 120.000. therefore, though nominal, is really just and fair: hence 120.000 population has lieen adopted as the basis of our financial calcula- tions. The !j;3ri.000 in paragraph 'A. allowance for the jreneral supi»ort of the Government, is an arbitrary sum adopted by Canada in neirotiatini; with Newfoundland and New Brunswick. The allowance of 5 per cent, interest on the ditference between our imblic debt and that of Canada is arrived at in this way : We have it otficially from Canada that her debt on February 9th — say 1st March if you like — amounted to !f22 per head of her population. This would entitle us, with 120.000 people, to come in with a nmch larger debt than our own, which at the time of I'niou would be. say. .$1,000,000. The interest at five per cent, on the difference of these amounts would ,s;ive us the annual allowance of .$82,000 named in the paiH^rs before the House. The SO cents a head on our population of 120.000 is the usual allowance prescribed by the Or.iianic Act of Confederation. Hon. CHIEF COM.Ml.^SK )M:K — Mr. Chairman, I think that on these two clauses de])ends the whole stability of our scheme; and as I believe them to be of very vital importance ["Hear, hear," from Mr. DeCosmosl. I triist I shall lie excused if I offer a few remarks upon them, althouich it is jiossililo I may travel over the same gi'ound as the Hon. Attoi'uey- General has taken up in introducing these clauses. I say. Sir, that 120.000 may appear extravagant at fir.st sight. The basis of the population of 1861 is taken as the basis on which other .schemes rest; but that Avould not do for this Colony. It would not give us an equal advantage with other I'rovinces. It tias. therefore, been found necessary to take some other basis. And here. Sir. I desire to say that I am permitted to inform this House that the Executive are very nmch indebted to the Hon. ^Member for Victoria City, who is also a Member of the Executive Council (Dr. Helmcken). for his able assistance and suggestions in iireparing this scheme. I trust that this Council will find that the Hon. iNIember has been most practical and ardent in his endeavours to obtain good terms, if he has not lieen an enthusiastic advocate of Confederation. With regard to the reasons for ado])ting the number of 120.000 as the basis of pojiulation. we ask .something for undeveloped resources. The exjienses of living in tills Colony are much higher than on the Atlantic Coast; there is more per head paid for taxes here than in any other i)art of the Dominion. One dollar here is in reality worth no more, that is to say it goes no further, than one shilling in the Eastern Provinces ; and one man here pays as much to the Revenue as four on the other side. The basis is in fact the basis of Customs paid by each individual in this Colony, compared with the Customs Revenue paid per individual in Canada. Taking the estimate of the present year, the Canadian Customs and Excise yield .$2.7.") i)er bead on the i)resent population; and our Customs being .$.3.30.000. is ecpial to .$2.7.") per head on a population of 120.000. upon comparison with Canada. I'ractically and eiiuitably, I believe this to be a fair basis. It may be open to some logical objection, but I believe it is ecjuitable. The estimate which we i)ropose to hand over yields at that rate, as we now farm it. AVe turn it over into the hands of those who are to manage it. It is not for us to consider how. If they reduce tlie Customs, it is nothing to us; we nmst have a i)asis as favourable as this. [" I'erhaps more so" — Hon. Mr. Helmcken.] Perhaps more so, as the Hon. .Member s.iys. The debt of Canada amounts to .$22 per head on the population, and this on a )io|iuhition of 120,000 gives a debt of .$2,040,000. We may claim to have our dclil taken over on the same basis as other Colonies, as before Union can be c per cent., that is to say: .$82,000, as stated in the i)rinted particulars now before the Committee. The subsidy of .$.3.'j.000 is equal to that given to Newfoundland. Referring again to the printed figures, you will find that the amount of Revenue retained liy Rritish Columbia is .$1.~)1.0.")0. Add this to the subsidies, including the interest on the difference of the debt, amounting to .$21.3.000. and we haA-e a total Revenue of .$304.0.")0. As we shall be relieved of all exiienses but .$21 2.000. 7."'>. we shall have left a clear balance of .$1 r)2.0 40.25 to be spent in local works. This constitutes the Financial Scheme, and although it is oi)en to argument, it is aliont what we are entitled to receive, and what we must receive to place us in a fair i»osition under I'nion. Hon. Mr. DkCOSMOS. after asking the Hon. Mr. Helmcken if he wished to si)eak before him. and receiving a negative reply, rose and said: — Mr. (^halrman. in rising to speak to the COXFEDKUATIOX DEBATE. 57 Resolutions respect in.;,' the iirui)t)se(l sul)sulies to lie .^ranted by Caivada. I may possibly lie wasting nay breath, and the time of the House; but although that may be the case, my duty to my constituents and the country demands that I should do so. With respect to Confedera- tion, I have ever looked at it from one point: it musit have a money value. ["Hear, hear," from Dr. Helmcken.] A great deal has been said about the form of Government — about Responsible Government — but I say this: that every Government, whether responsible or irresponsible — must have money. It is impossible for the most perfect political system to move without it. Ways and Means must he provided. Now, I have always said, and I still maintain, in view of Confederation, that the amount that ought to be placed at the disposal of our Local (iovernment when we enter I'nion ought to be an annual surplus of $200,000, or nearly so, after having provided for the annual current expenditure of our Local Govern- ment ; that is. for all the offices and services that nuist be kept up at the expense of the Colony, in order to keep it moving as a I'rovince of the Dominion. We know by reference to the Estimates what they are; but in addition, there nmst be a certain sum provided for keeping in repair public works, such as the Main Trunk Road from Yale to Cariboo, and our public buildings. After these expenses have l)een defrayed, T should expect a surplus to the credit of the Local Government of about .$200,000. Hon. Mr. TRUTCH — As against .?ir)2.000 in the estimate accompanying the Resolutions? Hon. Mr. DeCOSMOS — Yes ; some surplus of that kind would be about the proper amount, if we expect the Colony to be any better off after Union than before, and if we expect our Local Government to do anything towards developing the resources of the country. Now, Sir, how shall we get that surplus? By the propo-sition before us, for which the Hon. Member for Victoria City (Dr. Helmcken) gets the credit as the originator? No, Sir. But I will not anticipate the answer to these quesitions. Let us first examine the Government financial scheme, of which the Hon, Member for Victoria is the financier. The first proposition made by the Government is that we shall assume for financial purposes that our population is 120.000. Now, Sir. I am one of that number who do not believe in assumptions in matters of finance. — one of those who deem it to be dangerous to found financial measures on fiction instead of fact; for in no department of Government ought there to be maintained a stricter regard for truth and fact than in the department of finance. The financier who resorts to fiction, no matter how well-intentioned, nor how patriotic, may justly be doubted. It may be as the Hon. Chief Commissioner has said : that the assumption of a population of 120.000 may be illogical and untrue, yet the result may be ('(juitable. P.ut, Sir, I do not think that we ought to assume, neither do I see the necessity for assuming, that we have a population of 120.000 instead of 40,000, as I believe it to be, as it is recognized to be, and as it is in fact. The magnitude of the subject, the historical asjiect of the terms, the dignity of the contracting parties, the noble- ness of the work of nation-making, our own self res])ect, ought to lift lis above the atmosphere of assumption and fiction, ought to guide us by an accurate and genuine political standard, and ought to inspire us with such jmre and lofty political .sentiments as would stamp the financial terms with the indelil)le marks of truth, fact, and statesmanship, and for ever shut out the ])ossil)i]ity of posterity associating our public men with mere parish politicians, instead of ranking them with enlightened and able statesmen. At the utmost, our population does not exceed 40.()()0, including men, women, and children. — Whites, Cliine.se. and Indians. — 10.(KK> civilized, and ."{O.OtK) semi-civilized. It would be a mistake to estimate an Indian to be eciual to a white man as a consumer; but when we consider that in our white population the males are largely in excess of the females, and that in this counlry tlicy an- very large consumers, it would not be incorrect to conclude that there is no unfairness in making our whole population — Whites and Indians — as equal to 40,000 consumers in the Dominion. St.arting. therefore, with a population of 40,000, we base our calculations on f.-icts. iuid not on liction. as in the governmental assunii)tion of a i)oi)ulation of J20.000. I will now, Mr. Chairman, proceed to deal with the liniuiciiil proposition of the Hon. gentlcnmn for Victoria (Mt.v — which is the Government schenu^ — by which he propo.ses to get .");i."»2.(MM» surjdus n'venue for the Colony after the T'nion. The proposed sources of revenue to produce this surplus are four in number, vi/,. : (1) an annual subsidy of SO cents ]\rv Ik ad of our po])nlation. wliicli is assumed to be I2().()()(». and on that basis of population would yield .>;ii(;.(i()(t: (2) a tixed suitsidy of $35,000 per annum ; (3) interest at the rate of 5 per cent, per anntnn on the difference between the actual amount of the dol)t of the Colony at tliedatc of Cnion. ;ind the proportion of the i)ublic 58 Confederation Debate. debt of Canada for 120.000 of the popiilatlou of Canada at the time of Union, which is esti- mated at $82,000 per annum; and (4) the l-alanoe of our present revenue (not including the Customs. Excise, Postage. &e.. that go to the Dominion), estimated at $ir)1.050 per annum. Now. Sir. I have already shown that our maximum iiopulation does not exceed 40,000. If we estimate the population of the Dominion on our admission in 1871 at 4.300.000, and the public debt at .'?8(!.000.000. the rate per head would be .$20. Now. $20 per head for our 40.000 people would entitle us to a public debt <»f $sO(».0(Mt; and as our public debt, after deducting Sinking Fund, would be in 1871 about $1.0r)0.000, the Colon.v would enter the Dominion with a debt of about $250,000. So no revenue can be acquired from the third srmrce of revenue on the basis of 40,000 population. Again, if the proposed terms allowed us to enter with the same debt per head as old Canada entered the Dominion, that is $25 per head, our population of 40.000 would only entitle us to a debt of $1,000,000. leaving us still in debt $."0,000 on our admission. No revenue still. Let us now take a passing glance at the Newfoundland terms of Union. The debt per head allowed to New Brunswick on her admission was, we are told, accepted on behalf of Newfoundland by those who negotiated the terms, and that was $27.77 per head. Now 40.000 people at $27.77 per head would entitle the Colony, on admission in 1871, to a public debt of $1,130,800, Instead of $1,048,644, our public debt then leaving a difference of $62,15G, on which, on the basis of the third source of revenue, we would be entitled to draw interest at 5 per cent. That difference, $62,156 at 5 per cent., would yield only $3,107, — a sum very far below $82,000 per annum, the estimate in the terms proposed. So it is neither on the Newfoundland basis, nor on a basis of fact, that the Hon. ^[ember for Victoria City has framed the Government scheme of Union. I will now come. Sir, to the real point of issue. I will try. with all fairness, to discover whether there is or is not any ground on which to base the assumption of a population of 120,000. We have been told by the Hon. the Chief Commissioner of Lands and Works, and by the Hon. and learned Attorney-General, that the financial calculations are based on the proportion between the receipts of Customs and Excise in this Colony and the receipts from Customs and Excise in the Dominion of Canada. Now. Sir, from statistics in my i)ossession, I find that the Customs of Canada yield $8,640,000. That amount, with a population of 4,3(X),000, would be equal to $2 per head per annum. Let us now see what the Customs Revenue yields per head in Briti.sh Columbia. In 1869, the Customs were $342,126. The difference between the average percentage of Customs duty imposed in British Columbia and in Canada is 7 per cent, less under the Canadian than under our tariff. Now. as we imported in 1869 $1,775,000, 7 pel- cent, on that amount would be equal to $124,250. If we deduct $124,250 from $342,126, our Customs receipts in 1869, we shall have $217,876. the total revenue Canada would have received from British Columbia in case we had been in the Dominion. If we divide this $217,876 by our population, 40,000. we shall have 5V2„ ])er head; in round numbers. 5%. We can now easily discern the reason why the basis of population has been fixed at 120.000 for financial purposes in the Government scheme of Union. It is apparent that the Govern- ment estimate of population has been founded on the conclusion that in British Columbia the Customs would be about $6 per head, and in Canada $2 per head, or three times higher here than there: and, therefore, our population of 40.000 ought for financial purposes to be 120,000. or three times greater than it really is. If there were not reasons for the opinion that under Confederation the Customs and Excise of the Dominion, as applied to this Colony, would not perceptibly exceed the rate per head in the Dominion East. I would cheerfully as.st'iit. for financial purposes, to the assumption of 120.000 as our basis of population. I cannot, however, conscientiously do .so, for with the extension of the Dominion to the Pacific, I hold, will come the equalization of political rights, and the equalization of taxation. The ecpialization of political rights will be established with the extension of the Dominion; but equalization of taxation, though it may not come in the first year after Union, yet it is bound to come within two or three years after Union shall have been proclaimed. In proof of this as.sertion. I could direct the attention of the Council to what I deem facts: (1) That as soon as Union shall have been proclaimed, Canadian manufacturers will enter our ports duty free, and that the reduction of Customs receipts from this source will, on the basis of our imports for ISCO, be $58,400 per annum; (2) The reduction of Customs receipts after Union, for Canadian produce entered dut.v free, and by the increase of agricultural produce in the Colony, will be, on the imports of 1869, $66,100. Now these two reductions are ecpial to $124,500, Confederation Debate. 59 and if we deduct $124, 500 from ,$217,870. the n mount that has been assumed by Government that Canada would draw from this Colony in Customs receipts, we shall have only $93,376; and thus $03,370 will be only a fraction more than $2 per head for our 40,000 population — vei'y nearly the same rate per head of Customs taxation on the Pacific as on the Atlantic. I might enter into ex])lanations at gi*eater length to show the correctness of this conclusion, but I deem it undesirable. The certainty of the equalization of taxation all over the Dominion renders the assumption of a population of 120,000 for financial pur])oses a pui'e fallacy, and nothing more nor nothing less. It is simply taking a temporary, a transitory state of things, a .state of things that will pass away in a year or two, as the basis for permanent condi- tions. Besides, there is a serious disadvantage in assuming that we will pay .$0 per head per annum in Customs duty to the Dominion after T'nion, and it is this :— Nearly every one would like to see all kinds of foreign merchandize, except such as would enter into competition with home-grown produce and home-made manufactures, entered duty free in Victoria, in order to foster and extend commerce. Now, if the Dominion Government made such an exemption from Customs for our benefit, it is but natural that we should make good to Canada in some other way what her revenue would lose by such an exemption. If Vancouver Isiand were exempted from Customs, and its population were taken to be 20,000, the Local Govern- ment would be expected to pay to the Dominion $G per head, or $120,000 per annum, for the exemption. But if instead of the temporary rate of $G per head, the permanent rate of $2 per head were taken, the 20,000 people of A'ancouver Island would only have to provide $40,000 per annum in lieu of $120,000, a sa^■ing of $S0,000. The advantage of adhering strictly to facts, instead of fallacious assumptions, is consequently perceptible to every one. By following facts we can have a scheme of union with a true correlation of parts, a thing impossible if we follow the proposed assumptions. I have stated that $93,376 is ail the Revenue that Canada is likely to receive in Customs from Briti.sh Columbia, on the basis of Population and Imports of 1809. Now, if a wide margin be allowed, and these figures be rai.sed to $120,000 per annum, it would only, at .$2 per head, entitle us to a population of 60,000. That population would entitle the Colony to a debt of $1,200,000, or only $150,000 in 1871 over our present debt, and on which the interest would be but $7,500 per annum. It is useless for me to follow the matter further to show that the financial terms are not based on correct premises. But before I conclude this section of the sub.iect I would remark that I have not taken into account the amount of Internal Revenue, such as Excise, Postage, Stamps, Malt Tax. &c., that the Colony is likely to contribute to the Dominion Treasury; for, so far as I can estimate the rate, it will not exceed $1. or $1.25 per head, and offers little or no grounds on whicli to base financial terms. The only difference, it appears to me, between the Customs and Internal Revenue laws of Canada, as applied for Revenue purposes to this Colony, is: that the Internal Revenue Taxes are likely to be, from the date of our admission, at the same rate per head here as in other parts of the Dominion ; whereas the Customs will be higher here per head for a few years than there. Turning now, Sir, to that portion of the financial terms that proposes to get $151,050 from sources of revenue to be reserved after Union to the Colonj-, I cannot help thinking that there has been a mistake all through the Goverimiental .scheme, and that the amount of i-cvenne proposed to be obtained from those sources is another instance of Governmental blundering. As I sum up these sources of revenue from the Estimates of 1870, they are as follows: — Road Tolls, $50,000; Land Sales, $6,000; Land Revenue, $4,000; Rents, $1,500; Miners' Certificates, $11,000; Mining Receipts. $12,000; Spirit Licences, $25,000; Trading Licences, $15,000; Fees of Court, $4,200; Fees of Oflice, $6,050; and Vancouver Island Road Tax, $6,000.— making a total of $141,250, instead of $151,050, as in the GovernmentMl rslimate submitted with the proposed Tei-ms of Fnion. The way in which T make the difference is by not taking into account as permanent sources of revenue such items as Arrears of Vancouver Island Real Estate Tax, $8,000; Over-payments Recoverable. $500; Sale of T'nserviceable Stores. $l,."i(M). There can be no grounds for including such accidental sources of revenue under the head of permanent sources of revenue. Hence we must reduce the $151,000 of local revenue to $141,000. But the latter amount must also be reduced by deducting the Vancouver Island Road Tax, $6,000, therefrom, thus leaving only $135,000 as permanent sources of revenue; for if the Vancouver Island Road Tax bo included in our estimate of permanent revenue, we ought also to include the amnial revenue of the cities of Victoria and New Westminster, which is simply absurd. CO Confederation Debate. The Vanoouver Island Koad Tax is a i>urely imuiicipal matter, and so tlie Govenuiieiit lias blundered in niixinsi up niuuit-ipal with provincial revenue. The Yale-Cariboo Road Tolls are estimated as a permanent source of revenue at $riO,000. This is another mistake, for the Iload Tolls are lalliuii off every year. In ISGS they were $(57.s2r) ; in 1860. $40,500; and in all prolial)ility will be much less in 1870; and as minin.i; diminishes in the upper country, year by year, so will the Tolls. If ever the proposed Railway be built, away go the Tolls altogether. Besides that, the present lioad Tolls are oi)pressively liigh. On the receipts of last year, they are equal to $1">0 per waggon load of 6,000 IT^s., or 2'/^ cents per It)., — an enor- mous tax that no one in his senses would ever thinli of regarding as permanent. If any toll at all were levied permanently, it could not be fixed at a higher rate than one-sixth of a cent per pound, or $10 per load of 6.000 lbs., from Yale to Cariboo. At that rate the Road Tolls, instead of yielding .$."0.0(JO per year, would only produce $3.3.38. which for all practical purposes might as well be abolished, for the cost of collection would exceed the receipts. For another and all-important reason. I think a great mistake has been made in entering the Road Tolls as permanent revenue after union. It is this : the entire people of the upper country have determined to abolish the Road Tolls as soon as possible. No compromise will be accepted. So, under this head our future revenue cannot be estimated higher than $3,333, or nothing. The revenue from Land Sales is also put higher than we are justified in fixing it. In 1868, the receipts under the head of Land Sales were only $1,200 ; in 18fi9. $5.r)(>4 ; and as permanent revenue, for all time to come, under union, at $6,000. Now. as it is alike our policy and our interest not to make Land Sales a source of revenue. I do not think that we would act judiciously in considering the terms of union if we estimate a higlier amount of permanent revenue from this source than the receipts of 1869, $1,200. Neither Land Revenue nor Rents appear to be as uncertain in their returns as Land Sales; so I will pass on to the items of Miners' Certificates, $11,000, and Mining Receipts, $12.r)00. Here again it appears to me another mistake has been made. Such gold mines as are worked in British Columbia will be worlced out. Such diggings are sure to be deserted in a very few years. The white miners will retire, and the Chinese will take their place. When the Chinaman leaves, the mines are worked out. I can, therefore, see but little hope of permanent revenue from the gold mines. Already the mining revenue has begun to fall off. In 1867, Miners' Certificates yielded $13.64;".; in 1868, $11,535; in 1869. $10,500; and is likely to be less in 1870. although the estimate is .$11,000. In 1867, Mining Receipts were $22.20s ; in 1868, $15,756; in 1869. $11,500; and yet for 1870 the estimate is $12..500. At the utmost, from all departments of mining, we cannot, in my opinion, estimate higher than $10,000 as permanent revenue, and but little of that amount will ultimately be drawn from gold-mining. Now, Sir, with respect to Spirit Licences, which have been estimated by the Government at $25,000 as permanent revenue, there could be no greater blunder made. The Hon. gentleman who framed these terms seems to have had no notion whatever of the sytems of taxation that oI)tain in the Dominion, and has consequently repeated his mistake of mixing Municipal taxati(m with Provincial. In the Dominion there are three forms of Govern- ment, viz.: Municipal. I'rovincial. and Dominional. and each has its own system of taxation. Here we have but Provincial and ^lunicipal Governments, with their respective systems of taxation. Now it appears that consideration has only been given, in framing these terms, to taxation under the Customs and Internal Revenue Laws of the Dominion. But Provincial Taxation ought also to have been considered, and the starting point should have been the equalization of our I'rovincial Taxes with the Provincial Taxes of the Eastern Provinces. This is made very apparent with respect to Spirit Licences. Here the Provincial Government levies $200 per annum on retailers in towns, and in the country $50 per annum. In Ontario the retail spirit licence is $20 per annum in cities, .$17 in towns, and $10 in the country. In estimating our future revenue from this source, we are not justified in placing it higher than the rate of Ontario, and that would reduce the receipts from Spirit Licences from $25,000 to about $r».250 per annum. The excess above the latter amount, if levied, ought to be levied for Municipal purposes. The Trade Licence here is also estimated too high. Now. after careful study of these sources of Provincial lievenue which it is proposed that the Colony, after union, shall exclusively possess, I cannot make the permanent receij.ts higher than $50,000 per annum. The difference, therefore, between my estimate of Provincial taxation and that of the framer of these terms, is $101,050, or as $151,050 is to $.50,000. If a larger amount than the latter be levied by our Provincial Government after admission, our taxes will be out of proportion to the taxes in the Eastern I'rovinces for Provincial purposes. Before propounding what I consider ought to be the financial Confederation Debate. 61 terms of union. I will ronclnde this part of the ."subject by stating that the terms submitted in the Itesolution.s. and illustrated by the printed Estimate, instead of givinir the Colony a per- manent total revenue of .1>'3(i4.0riO j)er annum, will only produce .$24S.5G7. unless higher Provincial taxation be levied here than in other parts of the Dominion. The way in which I make up these results is as follows: — By the terms submitted by the Government, there is (1st) Fixed subsidy, $35.0(t0; (2nd) Interest on difference of Tublic Debt. $82,000; (3rd) 60 cents per head on 120.000 jwpulation, !i;96,000; (4th) Reserved revenue, $151,050: Total, $364,050. By my luterpretatiou of the proposed terms, there Is : (1) Fixed subsidy, $35,000 ; (2) SO cents per head on 120.000 people, $96,000; (3) Interest on difference of debt, taking $20 per head as the debt of Canada, $67,507; (4) Reserved revenue, $50,000: Total, $248,567. Now. if we deduct from the latter amount the Government estimate of current expenditure, viz. : $211,009. there would only remain a surjilus revenue of $36,558. Instead of $151,050. as anticipated. I, therefore, sincerely think that the Government scheme Is wrong, and ought to be revised. Mv. Chairman, I therefore propose to bring mider the notice of the Council what I consider ought to be the financial terms, taking for granted always that Canada will become liable for our public debt at the time of admission. When the Provincial Delegates met in Quebec and London, to decide on the terms of Confedera- tion, they divided the Provinces into three groups, viz. : Upper Canada, Lower Canada, and the Maritime Provinces. Lower Canada was taken as the initial point. Now, Sir. In deciding finally as to the terms, I consider that British Columbia ought to be treated as the fourth group, whilst the North-West Territory may be regarded as the fifth. The first thing that strikes me. on looking at the Eastern I'roviuces. Is their territory. Ontario has 121.260 square miles; Quebec, 210,000; and all the Maritime Provinces, 88,065. Territorially, then, we are their eciual, and greater than either of them. The natural capacity of our territory to support population is as great as Lower Canada. We have a finer climate, and more varied natural resources. Quebec sustains a population of about 1,250,000, or more. Ontario has 2.000.000. It Is true that they are two centuries ahead of us, and we are in our infancy, with a handful of people. But that Is no reason why. In framing terms, that we should not look forward to the rapid development of the Colony, and to the possession of a large settled population. Con- sidering our geographical position, our natural resources, our wide-spread population, and our future. I think that we are entitled to as large a fixed subsidy as Ontario, Ihat Is $80,000. The proposed terms, submitted by the Government, ask only $35,600 per annum. Now, this is placing British Columbia, with its 220,000 square miles, its great natural resources, and the best climate in the world, on a par with Newfoundland, with its 40,000 square miles, its sterile soil and inhospitable climate, — a country that has never yet developed any capacity for anything but catching and selling codfish. Prince Edward's Island is also offered a fixed subsidy of $35,000 per annum, — a little in,sular conununity with a territory of 2,100 square miles, a hiuidred times less in area than our own country, and with a climate far inferior to ours. It is simply absurd to i)ropose such a thing as ranking this Colony in subsidies with either of the Provinces except Ontario. I want neither more nor less than what the latter Province gets as a fixed annual subsidy. Every Hon. gentleman present who gives the matter a moment's consideration nuist agree with me that $35,000 is entirely out of the question, and that the least we can accept is a fixed subsidy of $80,000 per annum, |IIt»ar. hear.l In the next place, I propose that our population be taken at 40,000, and at no time shall it be con- sidered less; and that we shall be entitled to receive 80 cents per head ann\ially until our population shall have reached 1.000,000. By this proportion we have truth and fact on our side. Our population will be subsidized at its actuol number and not increased by a fiction — an unnecessary assumi)tion — as in the terms pr()))osed. Under this hejid we would get. on entering the Donnnion. $32,000 i)er year. Besides that, as our i)opulatlon increases, this per capita subsidy would increase .Munnally in amount, till it reached the maxinunii numiter of inhabitants of 1.000,000, .Mnd llicii it would stoj). Now, the terms sent down to us by the Government assume, as I have shown before, the existence of a population nf 12(»,000. and propose that we shall receive so cents on that nnmluT ;it on<-e. and that \v(> shall receive no increase till our population shall have actually re.-uhed and jtassed that number; so it may be twenty .vears or longer before our actual po]iulation shall be eipnil to the assumed poi>nIation, 120.000; and in the interim tli(> per eajiita subsidy will remain unchanged. But this is not all. The Government scheme proposes to limit our niaxinunii ])oitnIation to 400.000. the same as in Nova Scotia, New Brunswick, and as proposed in the terms to Newfoundland and Prince Edward's Island. This is part of the same error made in copying the fixed subsidy. If we 02 Confederation Debate. Slim up the iiiaxiiuum of poinilation entitled to a jxr cditifd subsidy in tlie four INlaritime Proviuces. it will amount to 1,600,000. Now, if we rank our population with our extent of territory, we who possess three times as much territory as the Maritime Provinces, and equal capacity to support population, ou^ht, at least, to be entitled to fix our maximum number of inhabitants entitled to the per capita subsidy at one million. 1 Hear, hear.] Now, Sir, neither of these two subsidies, nor both, would meet the current expenditure of the Government. — keep the necessiiry offices and services of the Colony mnxiui;. I'.otli only amount to $112,000 per annum, and we require at least $102,000 to meet current expenditure, on the basis of the Estimates of 1S70. But, as it accidentally happens, if we add the proposed fixed subsidy, $80,000, and the per capita subsidy, $32,000, to the reserved revenue, which I have previously shown ought not to be estimated higher than $50,000, we shall have $162,000 and nothing over, — no surplus to enable the Local Government to do anything to develop or settle up the couiitry. If we were to receive nothing more than these two suljsidies and reserved revenue, we would gain nothing by joining the Dominion. It would be simply .1umi)ing out of the frying- pan into the fire. — a change without financial improvement. T'uder such circumstances, I would oppose Confederation. Now, Sir, in addition to the fixed and per capita subsidies, I ask for a temiwrary subsidy of $150,000. [Hear, hear.] Hon. Dr. HELMCKEN— For how long? Hon. Mr. DeCOS.MOS — 1 ask for a temporary subsidy of $150,000 per aimum, to be diminished annually in amount, in proportion as our population shall exceed lO.OOO. New Brunswick has a temporary subsidy of $63,000 for ten years. Nova Scotia a temporary subsidy of $s2.000 for ten years. The grounds on which I ask a temporary subsidy for British Columbia are: firstly, that the cost of living here is greater than in the Eastern Provinces, and, consequeutlj', public officers must be paid higher salaries, and necessary services cost more in this country than there ; secondly, our country is very large, and our population is small and widely scattered, and, consecpiently, requiring a larger staff of officials than a more compact and more populous community might require elsewhere; lastly, we require the additional temporary subsidy on the highest of all grounds — expediency, that has governed politics in all times and countries. "Wifliout a sur])lus of at least $150,000 per annum, the Local Government will be able to do nothing to advance the interests and settlement of the country. Confedera- tion would soon prove itself a source of disappointment, if there were no money spent annually for public works, immigration, education, v*;:c. A change, without financial improvement, would destroy all hope of any such thing as the loyal and cordial co-operation of our people with the Government of the Dominion. Expediency, therefore, demands the subsidy, and expedi- ency justifies the demand. In concluding my remarks. Sir. on this subject, I will briefly contrast the terms proposed by the Government ;ind the terms suggested by myself. The Gov- ernment scheme, as I have shown, calls for only $24S.5(;7, instead of $364,050 as alleged. Of the former sum it can draw in subsidies $198,567, in lieu of $21o.(X)0 as intimated. Now, by the terms which I have proi>osed the three subsidies, viz.: — fixed subsidy, $80,000 per annum, j)er capita subsidy, $32,000, temporary subsidy, $150,000, would yield $262,000 ])er annum, and adding thereto the reserved revenue (the details of ^Vhich have been explained) $50,000. the Colony on and after T'nion would have a Revenue aini>unting to $312,000 per annum. If we deduct $162,000, the sum r('(iuircd by the Estimates of 1870. to keei) ui) and i)ay for our Provincial officers and services, and make the necessary repairs to certain roads and buildings, we will have a clear surplus of $150,000 per annum to be devoted to Education, Charity, Public "Works and Inunigration. Besides which the equalization of taxation for Provincial puriwses would reduce taxation at least $100,000 more. If we deduct the current expenditure of the Government, viz.: $162.(M)0 from $248,567, the actual total amount of Revenue to be received under the temus submitted by Government to the Council, the surplus Revenue will be $86,567, as against $150,000 in that which I have proposed, making a difference between them of $()3,4o3. ["Hear, hear."] I shall hereafter move a Resolution suggesting the adoption of the terms that I have explained, and as an amendment to the Resolutions now under discussion. [" Heai% hear."] The Hon. Mr. HELM('I\1:X. Member for Victoria ("ity. said: — Thi- Hon. genlleman says in fact, we should go to Canada and say we want $250,000. I say we don't want to be Con- federated. Canada wants Confederation. We don't ask Canada, Canada asks us to be Con- federated. I agree that we ought to have $250,000 from Canada at least. The Hon. Member Confederation Debate. G3 who has just spoken, attempts to show that Cauadian manufactures will come in free. Twenty years hence Canadian manufactures may come in. but I will not go into that question; why should Canada complain of her goods coming in, what she gains will be more than she loses. She desires a large market for her mainifactures. and she must pay us for that; she cannot c-omplain that she is losing by supplying us with her manufactured goods. The Hon. Member for Victoria District (Mr. DeCosmos) says that equalization of labour, and of value of property and productions, will come about. I admit tliat it may be so, but in my opinion it will not be for some years to come. If there is equalization of labour, there will also be equalization of taxation and offices. The Local Government can look after this when it happens. I do not suppose that Canada will be disposed to look at our terms critically; they are getting this Colony far too cheap; I think .^2."0.000 is too cheap. The Hon. gentleman (Mr. DeCosmos) says that we should go to Canada and ask .$80,000 per annum, because another Province has the same, and that this Colony, which is larger in extent of territory than the largest of the Provinces, should have $80,000. But the Hon. gentleman must recollect that we do not produce revenue equal to Avhat the other Provinces produce. With regard to the limit of population for the purposes of representation, I think 400,000 is too small ; it ought to have been 1,000.000, not indefinite. 120.000 gives us the right to have eight members to represent us; this is a matter of expediency. There is a fault in the Ilesolution to which I will draw attention, it is this, that we do not get any increase of Kevenue to the Colony until we get a population of over 120,000 persons. We have to calculate what our Pteveuue will be now under Confederation, and we cannot look for any increase for years to come. Whichever way we look at it, the figures come back to the same thing, we want $250,000, and there are several ways in which we can get it; in point of fact we ask Canada to lend us that sum of money. Hon. Mr. DeCOSMOS — My proposition would give $(i.")0.000 more than the (Government scheme and set free Internal lievenue for local or municipal jmrposes. Hon. Mr. HELMCKEX— The Hon. Member wants .$1.-0.000 now. and as the population increases the sum is to decrease. Hon. Mr. DeCOSMOS— We should always have .SI . 10.000, with our jn-esent or a greater population. Hon. Mr. IIELMCKEX— The long and the short of the story is, that the two propositions amount to much the same thing. We go to Canada and say we want $2.50,000. According to this scheme, Canada will only be out of jiocket $128,000. I say that Canada's expenses will diminish in two years from this time by $()0.000, so that Canada will only be paying $08,000 a year. This is a very low rate of payment, far too low in my opinion. I say. Sir. that if one thousand miners go to Peace River this year, our revenue will be increased by $1(X).(K)0. and if Peace River succeeds, " pans out well," as the saying is. I am quite certain that $2.50,(>X> a year will not ])urchase this Colony. If Peace River is a failure. Canada may get it. The Hon. Mr. HOLBROOK said— Sir, I rise to support the motion of the Hon. Attorney- General for the adoption of these clauses. I prefer the scheme put forward by the Government to that suggested by the Hon. Member for Alctoria District; it is more statesmanlike, and deals with the sub.iect in a larger manner. I agree with the Hon. Member who has just sat down (Mr. Ilelmcken) that there is a great probability of our having a large increase of revenue from the Peace River mines. It is impossible at pi-esent to form any opinion, beyond mere conjecture, on this lic.-id ; Init still I tliink wo ought to be prepared for the contingency. I believe. Sir, that in a short tinic tlic Dominion Government will be drawing a large amount of revenue from tliis Colony, ]irol)al)ly a million, or a million and a half, of dollai's, iind I :im of oi)inion that provision ought to be made, l)y wliicli the I'rovinct^ will derive some material advantage from that large increase. The Tniled Stales Overland Railroad is producing such an effect as to turn California's attention to the I'acific Coast. 1 should be glad to see a scheme proposed, by which we should get back a part of any such increase of revenue, and if any Hon. Member will bring in an amendment, to secure to us some local advantage o\it of any such prospective increase of reveinie. I will support it: failing such amendment, I am prepared to sn])port the clause as it stands. The Hon. Mr. HUMPHREYS, Member for Lillooet, said— Sir, I rise to support the ana'ud ment of my Hon. colleague (Mr. DeCosmos). lu my opinion. Sir, the magnificent, bold, and statesmanlike scheme propounded by the Hon. Member for Victoria District (Mr. DeCosmos), has entirely demolished that of the Government. Hon. gentlemen have said much about Peace G4 Confederation Debate. River mines, so mucli. that they would almost lead us to suppose that if Peace River was to fail ill fulHllins the expectations that seem to have heen formed respecting it, the Government measure will also he a failure. I say, Sir. that nothing is known about Peace River, which will justify any such expectations. It is folly to talk about the revenue to be derived from the Peace River mines; the amount of prospecting in that district has been too trifling to afford any data upon which to base even an argument or suggestion, so far as the terms, financially speaking, are concerned. I think that the proposition laid down by the Tlon. Member for Victoria District (Mr. DeCosmos), is worthy of the serious attention and consideration of this House. I should like, Sir, to see a scheme carefully laid down, which would involve no subsecpieut reflec- tions and troubles, such as we have seen in Nova Scotia and New Brunswick ; it is better to go through all the squabbling and discussion that we have to do in this House now, than leave it to involve us in serious trouble hereafter. Hon. Mr. BARNARD — The Hon. Member says that the scheme proposed liy the Hon. Member for Victoria District has quite demolished that of the (Jovernment. I should be glad to hear the Hon. :Member for Lillooet point out the distinguishing dilfereuces between the two schemes. Hon. Mii. Hl'MPllREYS— The difference is api)aiviit. I think that I have said enough to show this Council the advantages of the scheme propounded by my Hon. friend; if Hon. Memliers cannot see differences which are so plain, it is not for me to supply them with brains. The Hon. Mk. WOOD said — Sir, I speak with considerable diffidence upon matters connected with finance. It is a subject which I have not made my particular study. The class of observa- tions which I shall feel it my duty to make upon these clauses, will be more for the purpose of enipiiring whether this Council has taken properly into consideration the possibility of the population of this Colony increasing within ten or fifteen years to IOO.OCjO, or about that number, if such an increase should take place, with the debt of British Columbia paid off, as it will be by that time, Canada will gain enormously under these terms. Of the ])r(jspect of there being a large consumption of Canadian goods here, I can say nothing. I do not think it likely that the Railway will supersede sea carriage in bulky staples. There are great difficulties connected with the transport of any goods, and until the Railway is in operation, I apprehend that the bulk of our dry goods will come as heretofore, from England, whilst that class of unmanufac- tured articles, which we are now importing from America, will still be likely to come into the market cheaper than Canadian goods, even though they are subject to a tai'iff. It is the difficulty of transport, our isolation in fact, as the Hon. Attorney-General has stated, and not the tariff, which is the real and substantial impediment to trade. I cannot help thinking that it is the probable destiny of this Colony to be numbered by hundreds of thousands, rather than by millions. This is the ultimate part of the world. AVe arc in this Colony further removexaggerati(m to assume that this Colony will have a p(>i)u]ation of one million within our lives. With such a climate as we have, and with such natural advantages, this Colony hiis stood still at a marvellous rate. The Hon. Mr. CARRALL, Member tor Cjirilioo. said :— Sir, Hon. Members have said, and I think with reason, that the policy of the Dominion tends towards free trade. Excise Duties are gradually taking the place of Customs, and I incline to the opinion that the importation of Canadian goods will reduce the revenue of this Colony considerably, but in any case, if a surplus should accrue to the Dominion CJovernment, tlien a proportion of that surplus should 6G Confederation Debate. revert to us. so that it mijibt lie applied for local purposes. If the ine(iualities foretold should arise, theu with such represeatatiou as we shall have, we shall have the means of securing a due proportion of the surplus. If the Canadian Government do not give us a fair share, we will force it from them. We shall be strong enough even with the number of Representatives proposed by these Resolutions. If the population really increases, as it is said it will, we shall have a vast rei)resentation. As regards the Indian population, it Is roughly estimated by the Vicar-General at 150.000. The Hon. Mr. DRAKE, Junior Member for Victoria City, said:— Sir, I do not think that the advantages to Canada have been fairly put ; it has been said that the sum of .$35,000 is an arbitrary sum similar to the subsidy allowed to Newfoundland. From the expenses of carrying on the Government of this Colony in proportion to the expeuse of the Government of New- foundland, in comparison to the population. I say that the sum is out of proportion and too small for the reciuireinents of this Colony. I would put it up to $70,000. Canada will receive, after paying subsidies and expenses. $128,000. Canada will no doubt fund the debt at a smaller rate of interest. IIou. CHIEF COMMISSIONER— Canada cannot fund it at less. Hon. Mr. DRAKE — It is a matter of assertion, but I am of opinion that she wall, and with the payment of debts in five years, Canada will ])ay out al)out $53,000 only a year, therefore I move a reconinuMulation to the Governor that "$70,000" be inserted in the conditions, instead of '• $35,000." The Hon. CHIEF COMMISSIONER, said:— Mr. Chairman. I shall be glad, speaking for myself as an individual member of this House, to accept any reasonable suggestion, and shall not oppose the recommendation of the Hon. Member for New Westminster. W'ith refer- ence to the amount of our debt, the Government scheme gives the Colony the full benefit of the debts to come in. I say that the debt of British Columbia, after Confederation, cannot be funded, or the greater part of it cannot, for this reason, the debt is payable in Debentures which fall due at certain dates. After Confederation the price of Debentures will go up, and Canada can get no further benefit by funding, except as regards the Floating Debt. W'ith regard to the remark of the Hon. Mr. Wood, who says the Resolution is framed with reference to present gain and future loss, I say we may wait and the horse may starve while the grass is growing. When we enter Confederation we must do so in the expectation that we shall participate in all the advantages of Confederation ; any increase of revenue or population will bring its share to us ; we must believe that Canada will deal fairly with us. Now. Sir, I followed the Hon. Member for Victoria District through his figures when he propounded his new scheme, and I must say that 1 am better pleased with the Government measure than I was l)efore ; ours comes out on a stronger basis than before, in contradistinction to his. By his scheme he propo.ses to ask a clear gift; we ask much the same amouut, but show the grounds. The Hon. Member has based his argument on assumption more than the Government have. It is wrong to look upon the estimate of population as a fiction, it is not so, it is based upon calculation. Call it an expediency if you will, but it is no fiction. He seems to treat British Columbia as if it were an estate to be parted with for a quid pro quo, which is not a fair way of treating the subject. If Canada sends us goods she will derive greater advantages from doing so than we shall, but nevertheless we shall participate. When our population increases rates of taxation will be reduced ; a lower tariff, cheajier manufactured goods, and lower rents, are amongst the advantages that I look for out of Confederation. With regard to the Road Tolls, I look upon it as essential that they should be kept up to meet the expenses of main- taining the roads and keei)ing them in repair. It has been a question, and perhaps it is still open for del)ate, whether the care and maintenance of the Main Trunk Road should not be thrown upon the Dominion (Government; if we regard the road as military work necessary for the defence of the country, its maintenance may fairly be a charge upon the federal revenue. I think we shall be in a better position to uphold the terms after this discussion. I believe that our future will be speedily prosperous, and I am quite satisfied that the Dominion Govern- ment should share in our prosperity. It will not do for us to depreciate our own future prospects. Hon. Mr. HELMCKEN — I have not much to say in favour of Canada, but this much I will say: if British Colum])ia prospers I)y reason of Canada's works and capital, surely Canada has a right to an ample share of the increased Customs Revenue which will be so produced. Confederation Debate. 67 Hon. Mr. DeCOSMOS — Mr. Chairman, the credit of the Government proposition now before us has been given to the Hon. Member for Victoria (Mr. Ilelmclcen). Now, Sir, I am perfectly content that he should enjoy the credit, and the whole credit. In speaking briefly he has quoted a word used by myself — " Expediency." Now, I again say that the whole thing is a matter of expediency. I have not heard anything, however, either from that Hon. gentleman or others who followed me, to disturb the solid foundation of my scheme, resting as it does on truth and fact, and a plain out-si)oken statement of our monetary requirements. I have always said that this question of Confederation was one of a monetary character — that it had a money value, and I maintain, as I have always done, without shadow of turning, that we ought to have a surplus revenue of about $200,000 on entering the Dominion. I have always said that we must have that surplus, or its equivalent, with Confederation, or else no Confedera- tion. That is the point round which I have been revolving. I have made no stride in advance, none to the rear, the Hon. gentleman oi)posite to the contrary. I have ever kept before the public the same idea, that when the terms of union were negotiated, thej' must bring that sum in a surplus revenue into our Treasury. It \Aas a simple point that everj' one could under- stand and not forget. It is the sum that I asked at first; it is the sum that I ask now; and it is the sum that I propose now in amendment to the Resolution of the Government. The real surplus in the Government scheme is so far below what it ought to be, that it will be repudiated as an absolute failure, if ever it comes before the people for ratification. They will reject it. It will create just as much dissatisfaction here as there was felt in Nova Scotia. I will now. Sir, as I promised, move the following as a recommendation to His Excellency, and in substitution of Resolutions 2 and 3 : — 1. That the Council reconunend to His Excellency the Governor, the following Resolutions for his consideration : — 2. The population of British Columbia shall be estimated at 40,000. 3. The following sums shall be paid semi-annually by Canada to British Columbia for the support of the Local Government and Legislature, to wit : — An annual grant of §80.000, and a further sum of SO cents a head per annum of the population, both payable half yearly in advance, the population of British Columbia being estimated as aforesaid. Such grant of SO cents per head to be augmented till the population shall be shown to be One Million, at which number it shall thereafter remain. Canada shall also pay to British Columbia, in semi-annual advances, the sum of $1.'j0,000 per annum, which shall from time to time be reduced in proportion as the population may exceed 40.000, Hon. Member for New Westminster — I object to the basis of population being changed, otherwise I would support some part of the recommendation. The Hon. Mr. ALSTON (Registrar-General) said: — This being a Government measure, I shall support the Resolutions, but I shall at the same time be prepared to give my assent and support to any sensible recommendations that are proposed. It strikes me that the Resolution of the Hon. Member for Victoria District (Mr. DeCosmos) is based on proper grounds. It is a mistake to say that the allowance for representation is l)ased on a fictitious estimate of population. The Executive Council must have estimated it on the area and extent of the Colony. I believe that our representation would accord with the reconunendation of the Hon. Member for Victoria District. I do not tliink that Canada is advancing in the direction of free trade. Her advance is more likely, in my opinion, to be towards protection. J have no doubt that Confederation will open the door for Canadian goods to be brought in. I have no hesitation in voting for a larger subsidy. l)ecause I believe that in a few years, from the increase in our revenue, Canada will have very little to pay, and in the Government Resolutions there is no suggestion for any refund from Canada, if the Customs Duties should amount to a very large sum. I shall, therefore, vote for the Resolutions, l)ut I shall support the recommendation of the Hon. Member for A'ictoria District, because I consider that it is grounded on common sense. Hon. Mr. BARNARD, Memlier for Yale, said: — Mr. Chairman, I shall support the Govern- ment proiiosition as it stands, i)articularly the estimate of 120.000. New Brunswick, with a population of 250,000. is entitled to fifteen inembers in the Dominion House of Commons. If the l)asis of representation is to be taken from population, then 40,000 would only entitle us to two members in the House of Commons, instead of eight. For that reason, in my oi)inion, if for no other, 120.000 ought to stand. P>esides, as a matter of fact, our population exceeds 40,000. There is not an Indian in the Colony who does not contrilnite as much to the revenue as a Canadian. They are entitled to be represented as well as white men. Eight members iu 68 Confederation Debate. the House of Commons will give us. as has been suggested, almost the balance of power between ])arties: eight, r^tanding firmly together, will have great intluence; but what would be our influence with two? After a few words from lion. Mr. ILnmithreys in sui)i)ort of the basis of population, as disclosed in the scheme of the Hon. Mr. DeCosmos. The several recommendations of the Hon. Messrs. DeCosmos. Drake, and Robson were read by the Clerk. Some discussion ensued as to how the vote was to be taken, and the Chairman decided to put the reconnnendations of Hon. Mr. DeCosmos first, by itself, and then the recommendation of Hon. Mr. Drake, which was an amendment on the reconnnendation of Hon. Mr. Robson. The recommendation of the Hon. Mr. DeCosmos. on a division, was lost. Ayes r». Noes 14. The reconnnendation of the Hon. Mr. Drake, as an amendment to that of the Hon. Mr. Robson. on a division, wa.s carried. Clauses 2 and 3 were then passed as read. On motion, the Committee rose, and asked leave to sit again. Hon. Mr. DeCosmos voted against the Report of the Committee being adopted. House adjourned at U p.m. until 1 o'clock on Wednesday. "\Yedxe.sday. ICtii March. 1S70. Committee sat at a quarter-past one. The Hon. ATTORNEY-GENERAL moved the adoption of Clause 4 :— "4. The Dominion .sliall guarantee Interest at the rate of 5 per centum i)er annum on " such sum. not exceeding £100.000. as may be required for the construction of a first-class " Graving Docli at Esquimalt." He said: — It is pretty generally known that a company was started for the construction of a Graving Dock at Es(iuimalt, and that negotiations with tliat object in view had taken place under a former administration ; but although both the Admirals and Governor Seymour had reported in favour of it, the thing had fallen through, owing to the inability of the company to obtain the necessary funds. They were only able to get a small loan in aid from the Admiralty. The Dominion guarantee of 5 per cent, on £100.000 sterling, with a prospect of ultimate profits from the undertaking itself, will, it is believed, secure the whole amount of capital required, which has been variou.sly estimated ; but from prelimimiry surveys and investi- gations which have been made, the sum of £100.000 is deemed sufficient, and there is little doubt that if a comi)any can get a guarantee for that amount, they can carry out the under- taking on the largest practicable scale. I am aware that some opi)osition has been expressed to the locality ; but it is to be supported on general grounds. It will be general to the whole Colony. £100.000 cannot be spent in any part of the Colony without benefiting the rest of it. The Navy are at Esquimalt. Esquimalt is the first port which ocean ships reach when they want rei)air. and the last point they leave when they receive sailing orders. Captain Richards, and all the Admirals from fir.st to last, have reported in favour of Esquimalt for a dock. Without Admiralty i)atronage and aid, the thing could not succeed. Another advantage in a dock would be. that it would enable us to utilize our great white elephant, the dredger. As to any ojjposition to the locality for Burrard Inlet and New Westminster, though as much interested as any Hon. Member round this Board in those places, I must say that they already have the larger share of benefit from the terms; for in my opinion the Overland Railway must follow down the main artery of the Colony, Eraser River, and have its terminus either at New Westminster or Burrard Inlet. Therefore, on public grounds, and because I believe that it will be a public benefit, I support the establishment of a Graving Dock at E.squimalt. The Hon. Mr. HOLBROOK — Sir. I rise to opjiose this clause, because I deem it too sectional; all sectional views .should be set aside. I think the locality should certainly lie left out. and the question decided hereafter. I have no objection to getting all the money we can from Canada, but I am not sure that there is any prt\sent necessity for a dock. I believe that for some time to come it will be cheaper to send ships to San Erancisco. What is wanted is Confederation Debate. 69 one of Clarke's Patent Slips. We shall, before Ions;, have plent.v of ships at Burrard Inlet, and when the coinnnmity requires it we shall have plenty of private parties ready to come forward to construct them. Both at Burrard Inlet and New Westminster there is .so great a rise and fall in the tide that they would be wod places. I have beeu asked to support the substitution of Burrard Inlet for Esquimalt in the terms, but I will not do so; I would prefer striking out the name altojiether. 'We ouirht. I say. to let .w sectional ideas, and so in for the public good. Hon. Mr. HUMPHREYS said: — Sir. I am at a loss to understand any op])osition to this clause. Any such guarantee, if it lead to the expenditure of so much money in any ])art of the Colony, will be an advantage to the whole community. It is au easily luiderstood benefit. It will not. in my opinion, make nmch difference where it is built; perhaps it would be better to leave the selection of the locality to a Committee, who might indicate to the Canadian Government the best locality. I am of opinion that we -s^ant a Graving Dock ; we don't want shijis to go to San Francisco. Hon. Mr. ROBSOX. INIember for Xew Westminster, said: — I may. perhaps, be expected to oppose this clause, and ask for New Westminster to be inserted, but I shall not do so. I have no sectional feelings in supporting Confederation. I think the word Esquimalt is perfectly harmless, although, like my Hon. friend (Mr. Molbrook). I should have preferred that no locality had been named. I do not think that naming the spot will, of itself, decide the question. The Dock will, no doubt, be built in the most suitable place. As the word is in. let it remain. Hon. Mr. WOOD said : — Sir. I agree with what has fallen from Hon. Members who object to the naming of the locality, and I shall move that the word "Esquimalt" be struck out, and the words " such place as the Dominion Government shall appoint " be inserted. I desire, if we are to have this organic change, that we should be free of sectional and local feelings of irritation. The naming of Es(inimalt as the locality for the Dock seems to me to be an endeavour to purchase the good-will of ^'ictoria, whose population is known to be anti- confederate [" No, no," from Mr. DeCosmos] — of Victoria, which stood the test of Confedera- tion at the last election, and whose Members sit here pledged against Confederation. This is bidding for the favour of the A'ictoria constituency. [" No, no," from Hons. Attorney-General and Chief Commissioner.] 1 judge of the effect which it is likely to have upon others by the effect it has upon me. I own some small portion of land at Esquimalt, at Constance Cove, near the probable site of the Docks, and that, I confess, has a softening effect upon me; and though I do not allow it to influence my vote, it does influence my mind. [Laughter.] Con- federation, as the Hon. Member for Victoria (Mr. Helnicken) has said, means a Railway, Docks, and money ; it means to each person the possibility of getting $1,000 at the end of two years, or $100 a month in rents. I do not believe that these terms will be submitted to. and if the inducements are taken away, I say the people will not have Confederation. If they do accept it under the inducement of material benefits, I fear that we shall very shortly see a strong feeling of reaction. Why should we name Esquimalt? What right have we to do so, if it is not intended to have effect on the Victorian interest? Why not leave it open? If Esquimalt is named, it seems to me to tie down the Dominion Government to a localit.v of which they may not a])prove, and may be disadvantageoiis to the negotiation. The more that is loft to the Dominion (Jovernnient, the better is the chance of carrying out the negotiations successfully. lion. Mr. DkCOSMOS— What is the estimated cost of constructing the Docks? Hon. ATTORNEY-GENERAL— £100,000. Hon. CHIEF COMMISSIONER— I think, Mr. Chairman, that it is nuich to be regretted that the Hon. Mr. Wood has attributed not very creditable motives to the Government. [" Hear, hear."] I am sorry to have to say so. I am sorry I cannot congratulate him on statesmanlike anners floating at the next general election, and. can imagine placards posted with the inscription in the largest tyiie: " A'ote for DeCosmos and the Esquimalt Dock." This object may not be intentional, but yet can it be otherwise? What is it? Intending without intending? I deny that I impute any dishonest motive in the Executive, but it is clear that the Dock at lOsquimalt will influence many votes, and I confess I gave them credit for foreseeing so obvious a consequence. Hon. CHIEF COMMISSIONER— I say this. Sir, that if any such motives had guided the Executive Council; if any considerations, such as have been suggested, had swayed them; if the object had been a different one. we could have prepared a much more palatable dish; we could have shown you pecuniary advantages. If we had had the intention to get votes, we could have framed the Resolutions very differently. But they were framed with no such views. It was the intention of the Government to prepare terms on a fair and proper basis to be submitted to the people. Hon. Dr. HELMCKEN — As a Member of the Executive Council, Sir, I confess that I was pleased to see Esquimalt mentioned as the site for the Docks. I will meet the Hon. Mr. Wood on this isue, and say that sujiposing this is put in for the sake of gaining the vote of the Victoria people, what is Confederation? Confederation means union to benefit every part of the Colony. To follow out the Hon. Member's reasoning, there should have been no public Confederation Debate, 71 works at all named in the conditions. I state tbat the insertion of Esquinialt in tbe Govern- ment Resolntions was not governed by sectional prejndices. The Executive Council took the broad view that is was for the interest of the Canadian Government to build this Dock, because if Victoria prospers under Confederation, it will lie so much better for the Dominion revenue. If the work is a benefit to Victoria, through bringing laliourers. it will benefit the whole Colony, and our position will be iuipi'oved, and therefore we shall become a more important part of the Dominion. If it pleases the people of Victoria, if they consider it a sufficient inducement to go into Confederation, let them do so. The people of Victoi'ia are here to make money, and not to found empires ; their children may perhaps make the kingdoms and empires. If the people like Confederation on these terms, I say let them vote for it. Hon. Mk. CARRALL, Member for Cariboo — " It may not be intentional, but it is so," were the concluding words of the Hon. INIr. Wood. I .say yes, so far as this : that the whole of the conditions of this scheme were intended to benefit the whole of the Colony. As a ^Member of the Executive Council, I repudiate entirely the narrow motives which have been suggested by the Hon. Mr. Wood. The Executive Council were actuated by no sectional views ; their object was to make the whole of the Resolutions not only palatable, but beneficial, to the Colony. The merits of Esquimalt as a site for the Docks are in theuLselves a sufficient reason to advance in favour of the Executive oi)inion being correct. T shall vote for the clause as it stands. Hon. Mr. DeCOSMOS — I am one of those who think it proper to have the locality for the Docks named : and I think the Government would have made a blunder if they had left out the word " Esquimalt." It would have been wrong, in my opinion, if the Government had framed the Resolutions with any sectional views. But it appears to me whilst they are likely to do the Colony good geneiially, they have been framed with a tendency to create the popular vote, and I do not see much harm in that. The point which I want to hear about is, whether £100,000 will be sufficient to construct a good Dock, and what sort of a Dock it is to be? It is possible that a large Stone Dock may not be of so much use as a Patent Slip. I have visited the Floating Docks in the Arsenals of the Vnited States, to take such ol)serva- tions as would serve an luiprofessional man ; and I confess that if it is to be a Stone Graving Dock in Constance Cove, to admit of one vessel at a time, I am inclined to the opinion that it would not be as good, nor as much public utility, as a Patent Slip. I shall support the item, or a larger sum than £100,000. I believe that a Dock, or a I'atent Slip, at Esquimalt. will attract .ships from Puget Sound. It is a step in the right direction. There is a feeling abroad that tbe Colony would have to construct this Dock. This would be a mistake; but to get Canada to endorse the scheme, by giving a guarantee for the interest, is, in my opinion, the right course to pursue. Hon. Mr. TRUTCH — That is the intention: that a private comi)any should undertake the work, the I>ominion giving a guarantee. It will be left for the company to choose. Probably Clarke's Patent Slip, with hydravilic lift, would be the easiest worked, as it would be the cheapest. It could probably be erected for £75.000, whereas a cut stone Graving Dock would cost more. One of the advantages of the latter would be that there would be more money expended in the Colony during its construction, whereas the principal cost of a Patent Slip would be expended elsewhere for machinery. I cannot say if £100.000 would be enough for the construction of a cut stone Dock or not. I think that a guai'autee of ~j per cent, on £100,000 will be a sufficient inducement for any company to take the matter up. I am con- vinced that £100,000 v.ill not build a stone Dock of sufficient capacity to take in such a ship as the Zealous. Hon. Mr. WOOD — If the people of A^ictoria desire the terms, why should not they vote for I'nion? My desire is, if we are to be luiited, to see a union which shiill be lasting. I say that these terms are not lasting. They are in the nature of direct and imnietliate pecuniary advantage. Reaction will set in after the Railway and Dock are built. Show me in these terms continuing and abiding benefit, and I am satisfied. Let tbe people of Victoria choose, but I ask Hon. ^Menilicrs. who understand human nature, whether the people would not choose direct benefit in jtreference to prospective and continuing advantages. Mankind will choose direct present pecuniary lienefit. rather than that benefit which is to be lasting and remote. I fear reaction. I look upon this ])]ace as my home, and shall complain. I think with justice, if ten years bonce I find a great reaction of tbe present hasty action. Confederation Debate. Hon. Mr. IIELIMCKEX— Would It he better to Imve Coiifetlenitinn with no terms at all, or with terms eiiual to these? H(m. Mr. WOOD — I ask for flift'ereiit terms; power to impose our own tariff, for in.stance. Hon. Dr. 1IKI>M('KEX — The objections of tlie Hon. Member are not correct. When the Dock and Kailway are bnilt. I admit that some source of labour, and conseciuent interest, will be gone, but then we must look for other interests to arise. I admit that discontent may arise; it ha.s frequently been so in England, when a l.irge number of labourers have been thrown out of emiiloyment ; but I say that tin' Dominion and Tjocal (iovermnents will have the power and tlie sense to remed.v any such evils as they occur. Hon. A'rTOKNEY-(iEXEUAL — -I cannot fancy anything more calculated to jjromote i)erma- nent benefit than the establishment of (Jraving Dock.s. Every ship that comes in would si)end money, would be a benefit to the town, and a continuing benefit; and not to the town only, but to some e.xtent to the whole Colony. If tlie Colony goes on and increases, so must the work to be done in the Docks go on increasing. I regret that the Hon. Mr. Wood should have taken the ground that the Plxecutive are influenced by any sectional motives. I do not see why the Hon. Member should refuse benefits which come under Confederation. He would surely not prefer to go in without terms. Hon. Mr. DRAKE — I doubt whether the ;imonnt named is large enough. I have informa- tiim from gcxnl authority that double that amount will be reciuired. Canada is only asked to guarantee the interest. I shall, therefore, move an amendment, in the shape of a recommenda- tion to His Exc(>llency, that the sum of £1()<).(M)0 be increased to £inO.(j()() in the conditions. I am of opinion that the terms should be put in as favourable a light as possible for this Colony. Hon. Mr. PEMBEUTOX — I would ask the Chief Commissioner of Lands and Works whether it would be possible to connect the sui)pl.v of water with the Docks? I^ondon is supplied by a large fresh water reservoir, and it is possible that the same course might be adopted as regards this city. If the course of the water in the valle.v of Victoria Arm were stopped, the Gorge being a natural valley, if it were possible to exclude the salt water from the whole of A'ictoria Harbour, a vast natural reservoir of fresh water might be formed, which would supply the whole- city with water. Being no engineer. I feel some dittidence in putting it forward. I onl.v put it as a suggestion to the Chief Commissioner, with the view of inquir- ing whether it could be done. Hon. CHIEF COMMISSIOXER— It is impossible for me to offer an opinicm upon the suggestion of the Hon. ]Mr. Pemberton. The supply of water upon the supposed plan, would contemplate the expenditure of much more money than the sum required for Graving Docks. Besides the proposed place is too low, and would necessitate the water being pumi)ed up to a second reservoir. Moreover, I am of opinion that the supply of water is too much of ;i local matter to be worthy of mention in the terms. Hon. Mr. HOLBUOOK^My amendinent is. tliat the word " Esquimalt " be struck out. on the ground that it is too sectional. I believe that any Company which is formed will erect a Patent Slij) instead of a Dock. It has been shown in practice to be more useful. I move that the word " Esquimalt" be struck out. Hon, Ml'. Wood's recommendation to strike out the word " Esquimalt," and to iiisert "such place as the Dominion Government shall isppoint." on division was lost, two only voting in favour of it. Hon. Mr. Drake's reconunendation "That the sum of £l.jO,000 be named," on division was lost, eight voting in favour of the recommendation. Clause 4 was then jiassed as read. The Chairman then read section o : — " ."). In addition to the other provisions of this licsolution, Canada shall assume and defray "the charges of the following Services; — "(a.) Salary and allowances of the Lieutenant-Governor; "(?>.) Salaries and Allowances of the Judges and Officers of the Supreme Court, and "of the Count.v Courts: "(c.) The charges in respect of the Department of Customs; "{(1.) The I'ostal Department: CONFEDERATIOX DeUATE. 73 "(e. ) Lighthouses. Buoys. Heaoous. and Lightships, and sucli further charges as may " be incident to and connected with the services whicli l)y ' The British North " America Act, 1S67,' appertain to the General Government, and as are or may l»e " allowed to the other Provinces." The Hon. the ATTORNEY-GENERAL moved the adoi)tion of this Clause, which ho said was taken from "The British North America Act. 18(i7," and would relieve the Colony of the payment of a certain amount annually in the shape of Salaries. Hon. Mr. Hl'^NIPRHEYS — I shall move a recommendation that the maintenance of the Roads by the Dominion Government, be included in this Clause. Hon. Mr. DeCOSMO.S^ — This seems to be a made up clause, it is provided for in " The British North America Act." and the insertion of the clause in these Resolutions looks like setting it before the country for the oliject of educating tliem up to what they are expected to ask for. Hon. ATTORNEY-GENERAI. — It is an essential part of the whole scheme. Hon. Mr. TRUTCH— I think it is partly provided for by " The British North America Act;" yet it is included in the Terms of the proposed admission of Newfoundland. Hon. ATT0RNEY-GI<:NERAL— And of all the other Provinces. Hon. Mr. ROBSON — I do not agree with the Hon. Member for Victoria District. I think the Act of British North America applies to original Provinces, and provision is made for the admission of others. They might be presumed to apply to us, but I think it is proper to ask in an address that these charges should be put in. and that it is as necessary to insert these as it is to insert any clauses. We should make it plain that we desire to have these terms applied to us. Hon. Mr. Df.COSMOS — There is no provision in paragrai)h (h) for payment of salaries of Judges of Admiralt.v or District Courts. Hon. Mr. WOOD — I move to strike out these paragraphs ; they are mere verbiage. One woi"d with respect to the Admiralty Court, which ought to be included if the Supreme Court is inserted. Hon. ATTORNEY-GENERAI^— We have no power, as a Council, to deal with the constitu- tion of the Admiralty Court; nor is this the proper time to enter into any discussion respecting it. Hon. Mr. WOOD — I say we have every power, and I take this opportunity of saying that the Admiralty Court is badl.v managed. I have heard it insinuated that the .Judges of the Admiralty Courts in this Colony have been influenced by fees to prolong the business of tlie Court and drag out Admiralty business to its utmost length, instead of pushing it through, as the business of the Common Law Courts is pushed through. There ought to be no fees. Admiralty practice in this Colony is likel.v, in case of war. to assume enormous proportions. I do not see why a condition should not bo inserted to ])rovido us with an Admiralty Court with Judges to be paid by fees. Hon. Mr. DkCOSMOS — Does the Hon. the Attornoy-CJoneral intend to insert Admiralty Court? Hon. ATTORNEY-GENERAL — We must not arrogate to our.selves powers wliidi wo have not; and the insertion of such a clause in the Resolutions which we are now discussing would be entirely out of i)lace, and I would suggest to Hon. Members not to introduce this Resolution mow. but let it 1>o l)rought up as a substantive measure. It cannot l>o brought u]) again, if it is decided now. Hon. Mr. WOOD — T said, and T repeat it. that if the Imperial (Government wore ])rop«'rly approached this thing might bo done, just as if the Crown were ])roi)erly ai)])roached. the Crown Salaries Act might be rei)ealod. Hon. Mr. DkCOSMOS — I think some action ougjit to 1)0 taken. I wisli to call attontion to the fact that the Canadian Parliament have power to tix the salari(>s of the Judges in Admiralty, where tliey are paid by salaries. H(m. ATTORNEY-GENERAT.r— Then bring tho matter u]) so|)aratoly. Hon. Mr. DR.VKE — I would draw the .\ttornoy-Gonorars attontion to .section 100 of the British North America Act. which includes Admiralty Courts where the Judges are j>aid by salaries and i)onsions. It is expressly stated tliat the terms of the British North America Act shall api)ly to this Colony; then why not insert it in the woi'ds of the Act? Though we are 74 Confederation Derate. aware that these Resolutions have to be carried, there is no reason tliat we should not add recommendations. I think section 100 of the Act is better than our clause. I will move the addition of the word " pensions." Hon. Mr. HOHSOX — I cannot see that the apiilic-atiun of sei-tion 100 would meet the case. It would be ineffectual because our Jud^ies of the Admiralt.v Court are not paid by salaries; therefore it would be inoperative as regards British Columbia. ^Yhilst I deem it quite des^irable to nnike the change suggested, I do not think this is the time to make it. I should suggest postponing the discussion of the question as to the Admiralty Court until these Resolu- tions are settled. Hon. Mr. TRI'TCH — Why complicate the question? Why not bring it up in open Hou.se and discuss it? Hon. Mr. wood — It could be done in three or four months. The Judges of the Admiralty Courts could be put upon salaries, and section 100 would then be applicable. We are upon the question of Judges, and why not decide it at once? Hon. Mr. TRL'TCH — I am not prepared to discuss this question, as to the Admiralty Court, now. If proper notice is given of its being brought up, I shall then be prepared to go fully into its merits. Hon. Mr. WOOD — The iirlnciiile is bad to pay Judges liy fees. Hon. Mr. RING — The question is: are the Judges of the Admiralty Court, Judges? Why should we not say clearly and unmistakeably what we mean? I shall support the recom- mendation of the Hon. Mr. Wood, and I hope the members of the Government will pause before they oppose it. Let them consider whether it is desirable to admit the principle that any person exercising the office of a Judge slniuld be paid by fees. I say that the question is properly before us now, and the reconnnendation comes fairly and correctly in this place. Hon. Mr. ALSTON — I agree with the Hon. Mr. Wood, as to the Constitution of the Admiralty Court, but should vote against the recommendation, and for the Resolution, because I do not think that this recommendation, or amendment, for it virtually amounts to that, if acted upon by the Executive, would effect the cure; the Judges would still take fees. Hon. ATTORNEY-GENERAL — I shall be obliged to vote against this recommendation, if it is i^ressed, on account of the way in which it is brought up here. The friends of the alteration are those who are refusing to join in bringing it forward at this inopportune time. A vote taken now, would prevent free discussion of the subject. I recommend the Hon. Member to withdraw his amendment, and I invite full and free discussion of the subject of the Admiralty Courts upon a special day to be fixed. Hon. Mr. TRUTCH — This discussion is inapposite at this time. If this side of the House were against the consideration of the payment of Admiralty Judges by fees, they could let it pass in Committee, and kill it in the House; then, under our Standing Orders, it could not be brought up again, but we do not intend to do so. I shall vote against it. The Hon. ^Ir. Wood, with the permission of the Council, withdrew his recommendation, on the understanding that it was to be brought uj) at a future day as a distinct motion. The Hon. Mr. Drake's recommendation as to Pensions was put, and lost. Hon. Mr. WOOD — It is treating the reconuneudations of non-official members with con- tempt and disrespect to find the Government Members voting them down. ["No, no," from the Attorney-General.] ["Yes, yes," from Mr. Drake..] Let us have an opportunity of putting our opinion upon record. This Government vote operates as a vi'et blanket upon all occasions. Hon. ATTORNEY-GENERAL— It is the connnon s(>nse of the House, which says that recommendations which are against the basis of the Resolutions should not pass. Hon. Mr. IirMI'IIREYS — If what we do is not to meet the eye of the Executive, it is of no use being here. I never felt so mean. Our position in this Council is nugatory; utterly futile and contemptible. If all the elected members felt as I do, we should leave the Council in a body, and have nothing more to do with it. [" Hear, hear," from ilr. DeCosmos.] I find it difficult to speak of the Government conduct of business in this House with patience. Hon. Mr. TRUTCH — I should really like to know what this is all about. One Hon. Member says that the course is disrespectful, because the sense of the Council was against him. The Hon. Member for Lillooet indulges in a species of harangue which is peculiar to him ; when he is at a loss for an argument he shakes the red fiag of officialdom befoi'e him, lowers his head. Confederation Debate. and charges at it madly. With regard to disrespect, I thinlc we treat them with respect by discussing them here at all. We might allow them to pass here, and vote them down in the Executive; but instead of that, the Executive Members enter freely into the discussion here, and declare what their views are fully. As to voting recommendations of Hon. Members down, when a suggestion is made to substitute one scheme for another, it would be strange if the Government Members should not unite in voting it down. With regard to the recom- mendations for adding to the terms and conditions, they ought to he rarefully made, or their Insertion may create great disajipointnient in the public mind by leading people to expect more than will be acceded. Hon. Members should weigh their votes well. I, for one, will not vote for what I cannot recommend to His Excellency in the Executive Council. Hon. Mi{. HUMPHREYS — I am not in the habit of holding my head down, I always hold it up. I agree with the Hon. Mr. Wood, that all that we are likely to do for the public benefit is crushed by the official vote. Hon. Mk. CARRALL — The Hon. Mr. Wood has stated that the reconinieiidations of the Elected Members would be treated with contempt. He is not a Member- of the Executive Council. I. as a Member of that Council, can tell him that they are always treated with the greatest respect. Hon. Mr. WOOD — What I say is that the recommendations of Independent Members do not reach, and will not reach, the head of the Executive. We want them to reach. We all believe that the Members of the Executive will mention them, but that is not what we want. We desire that these recommendations should meet the eye of the Executive. I disdain to consider that the Executive rules this Colony. They do not; they administer the Government, and I consider it to be the duty of the Executive to sink their own views, when they do not accord with the popular will. It is quite possible that the Executive may be wrong and the Popular Members right occasionally. Hon. Mb. TRI'TCII — I do not think the position of the Hon. Mr. Wood is correct. There are now three Resolutions of, so-called. Popular Members before the Executive; why are so many of their recommendations carried if there is any desire to treat them with dis- respect? The difficulty is, that the Hon. gentleman persisted in trying to force a vote upon his Resolution about the Admiralty Court. I, if pressed to give an opinion at an inapposite time, would vote against it. Hon. Mr. DeCOSMOS — The conviction in and out of this House is, that the Elected Members are useless, being out-numbered by the official vote. The only reason why I would endeavour to be elected to a seat, in a Council so constituted, is to prevent evils that might happen. The Government might get tools to go in and vote as they liked. The Government might get .some one to be elected, and then call it the popular vote. The mLstake has been in interpreting recommendations into amendments. Hon. Mr. ROIi.SOX — Mr. Chairman, I think that nothing can be more unfair, nothing more ungenerous, than the position taken by some Hon. Members towards the Government. This scheme was brought down to the House by the Government, and we were invited by the Hon. Attorney-General, and other Members of the Government, to make any reconnnendations or suggestions that we thought proper, and they would receive every consideration at the hands of the Executive. I fail to .see one single act or vote at variance with that ]iositioii. I have seen leading Members of the Government voting different wjiys; and this I take to be an evidence of their sincerity. There seems to be a disposition to run away with the impression that the unofficial members are treated with disre.spect. To me, Sir, such a position is undignified and absurd. Because I have moved a recommendation, and the House has voted it down, am I treated with disrespect? Why, follow this up and an adverse vote would be in every case an insult to the minority, and legislation wouhl become an impossiliility. I am grateful to the Government for what I consider a great scheme; grateful for having the oiti)ortunity of voting upon it, and I join the Hon. Chief Commissioner in warning the House against voting altera- tions in the Terms, lest such a course should create hopes to be afterwards disaj»pointed. and lead to a reaction which might result in the defeat of the whole scheme at the polls. I would also caution Hon. Members to avoid attempting to induce the Government to insert terms which would imi)eril the scheme with the Dominion Government. I shall set aside any par- tifular views and suggestions I should like to make, to avoid that result. I can understand 7G Confederation Debate. eiu'iuies of the cause rusbin^; in resolutions calculated to raise extravagant hopes, and so pro- duce disapitoiutnient and fatal reaction, but not friends of tbe cause. In reconiniending altera- tions to Government our reason and judgment should be fairly and calmly exercised. riause .") was put to tbe Committee by the Chairman, and i)assed as read. Tlit> Chairman read Clause (J : — " (■). Suitable Pensions, such as shall be api)roved of by Her Majesty's Government, shall " be provided by the Government of the Dominion for those of Her Majesty's Servants in the *' Colony, whose position and emoluments derived therefrom would be affected by political " changes on the adujission of this Colony into the Dominion of Canada." The Hon. ATT()I{NKY-(iKXKIiAI. said: — In proposing the adopticm of this clause, it is only necessary for me to state to the House that It is inserted in accordance with Lord Granville's despatch. Confederation will, in all lu'obability. affect the positions of certain officials, and the despatch advises that i)rovision should l)e made, hence this clause. Hon. Mr. Hl'MI'HliKYS — I do not approve of the princii)le of pensions, and I cannot under- stand why pensions should be given to men who came out to this Colony, as I came out. as needy adventurers. The people of this country do not approve of pensions. If Hon. Members had been induced to come out from England to assume positions under (Tovernment for life. I could under- stand their being i)rovided for with i)ensions on the positions being aliolished. I was once a (Government OtHcer in this Colony myself, and should of course have liked to get a pension ; !)Ut in my opinion tlie present (TOvernment officials have drawn very good pay for doing very little work, for long enough; and before a pension is given, it should be shown that the person to whom it is given lias done the State some service. Hon. Mr. DeCOSMOS — AVe have now. Sir. arrived at the Government's *' wisdom " in delaying Confederation in 1868, and subsequently, and of which we heard from the Hon. Chief Commissioner of Lands and Works. The Hon. gentlemen who own this Colony — for the Governor and I'^xecutive virtually own the country — are now I'eady to execute a quit claim deed of this Colony to Canada, for a pension to each, and it may be the cheapest mode of getting rid of them. I'ensions are a modern discovery. Tlie Romans granted triunii)lial entries as a reward to their most distinguished citizens; and the Greeks crowned those whom they would honour with laurels; but now pensions are the fashion. How much more substantial I The whole secret of the opposition of the Government to Confederation lay in the (luestion of pensions. ["No, no.''] ["Yes, yes."l Still I shall vote for the clause, as I believe this to be the cheapest way of buying out the present possessors, the virtual owners of the Colony. I think it ought to be pensions or compensation, but I will move no amendment. Hon. Mr. HOLBROOK — I am prepared to support this clause. It shows that Great Britain does not forget her public servants. It is a good and proi)er clause, and a usual one. This is following out what is done in every otlier British Colony. I shall support the clause. Hon. Mr. AYOOD — I shall support this clause. It stands out in strong contrast to the action of the Imperial Government, in their treatment of pul)lic otiicers upon the occasion of another union. I am glad to see this clause inserted, as representing a principle that ought always to be recognized. Hon. Dr. HKLMCKEX — Tlie Hon. Member for Yictoria District is attributing motives again. If he throws dirt on others, he must expect to have it thrown back on himself, and it might as well be said that Hon. Representative Members who vote for Confederation only vote for it for the sake of the loaves and fishes. ["No, no.'' from Mr. DeCosmos.l This is a question for the Canadian Government, not for us. Government officials are entitled to some compensation for loss of offices, and the Canadian Government will think so too. To them I leave it. They will, I believe, settle the cpiestion honourably. Hon. Mr. DkCGSMOS — I challenge any man to say that I ever asked to have any Govern- ment post or ai)pointnient. I liave lived half a century, and three-fourths of that time I have earned my own bread and spent my own money. Hon. Dr. HELMCKEN — I don't accuse tlie Hon. Member of seeking office. I say the argument might lie used ; and if gentlemen will throw dirt, they must expect to get it thrown on them. Hon. Mr. DeCOSMOS — The remarks I made were as to times past. As to dirt, I never use it. I deal in facts. I know men, however, who have for themselves and friends stuck closely to the loaves and fishes; and I could name some public men who did their best and succeeded in Confederation Debate. 77 depriving the Colony of Vancouver Island of half a million of dollars, that the Duke of New- castle, as Colonial Secretary, said belonged to if. [Hon. Mr. Helmcken — "Name." J No, I will not mention names. I say, again, that the chief reason for this question not being taken up in l.s(iS. was because pensions were not provided. Now, Sir, I am glad the Hon. senior Member for N'ictoria City has afforded me an opportunity to explain the part that I took in pressing Confederation on the Council in 1S6S. 1 first endeavoured, with the Hon. Member for New Westminster, to enlist (Tovernor Seymour in the matter, — get him to take it up as a Government n-easnre, — and open negotiations with the Canadian (Tovernment. But he refused to interfere in it. and said the Council might deal with it. Without the support of the Governor, in a Council so constituted, there was no hope for the measure. It then became a question whether any Ilesolution on it ought to be brought forward in the Council. Some Confederates urged that it would not do to have a Resolution defeated. On the other hand, I thought it best to make some proposition, merely to elicit an expression of the Council's 'opinion, and show the country its attitude on the question. For in agitating the question, unless it could be proved incontestably that the Council and Executive were opposed, the people could not be aroused to take action. I, therefore, brought it up in a series of Resolutions before the House, and not in Committee of the Whole. If I had had the least hope that it would have passed. I would have had it con- sidered in Connnittee of the Whole, — the proper place to settle such an important matter, after the terms had been settled between the two Governments. As a matter of course, the Resolu- tions were defeated. But subsequently, when it was urged upon the Governor, at the instance of the Collector of Customs, that the Council lie allowed to take action, he said " No : let the people act." Hon. Me. CARIfALL— I shall vote in favour of this clause, and I only desire to offer three remarks. The Council have had two ob.iects mainly in view : first, to bring in a scheme which should bring general prosperity; and, secondly, that no vested interests should be affected by the act of Confederation. The positions held by ofllcial gentlemen are, I contend, vested interests, and as such, entitled to protection. As regards the way in which members have been treated in other Colonies, there are numbers who are now receiving pensions. I may instance two notable members of the Imperial Government — the Right Hons. Robert Lowe and H. C. E. Childers. I desire to put it upon record that I vote for this clause with as nuu-h pleasure as 1 su])port any clause of the Resolutions. Clause 6 was then read by the Chairman, and passed as read. The Hon. ATTORNEY-GENERAL proposed the adoption of Clause 7 :— " 7. The Dominion Government shall supply an eflicient and regular fortnightly steam " communication between Victoria and San Francisco, by steamers adapted and giving facilities " for the conveyance of passengers and cargo." This clause speaks for itself, and it is unnecessary for me to say anything in support of it. Hon. Mr. DeCOSMOS — I regard this paragraph of the Resolutions as a make-weight, nothing more nor less. It is a mistake to make it one of the essential conditions. The time may come when we don't want this steam comnuuiication. The Railway may come to Ruget Sound, and then this clause will be unnecessary. Peo])le will say. at lirst. that this is a splendid thing; l)ut it is all included in the British North America Act. Hon. CHIEF COMMISSIONER— The Hon. .Member refers. I suppose, to clause (h) of Section 92, which excepts "Lines of steamships between the I'rovince and any British or foreign country" from the "Local works and undertakings" which are declared to be subjects of exclusive I'rovincial legislation. The Dominion (Jovernment would have to make provision for mail stenmers. This clause ]irovldes for regular connnnnication. When we liave com- nuuiication with CiiiiiKla liy railway, such a clause as this would be iniuecessary ; but now, if confederated, we sliall need, more than ever, regular an have purposely left open. The line may come down the valley of the Fraser, as in my opinion will be best, or it may come through to Bute InU>t or Bentinck Arm. We have purposely generalized and left it for those who undertake the work to determine for themselves. Tt is not desirable for us to cramp this Resolution by defining the locality for the line or terminus. The Hon. Mr. ROBSON. — Sir, I conceive that we have now come to the most vital i»art of the whole scheme. I quite concur in the opinion that no real union can take place without a Railway. Did I believe that the Overland Railway would not be made. I should hesitate very much about Confederation, because I should be apprehensive that the whole scheme would fall to pieces. I think that great haste must be used to build up an English-speaking nation along- side of anotlier existing English-speaking country. To acconq>lish this end, I think that the Overland Railway is necessary, and must be pushed through to speedy completion to be an inunediate success. In ten years" time, without an Overland Railway. I do not believe that we should have any British Territory here at all. The great work must be undertaken with the assistance of both the Canadian and Imperial Governments, and pushed through to a speedy success. It is true that a sort of union might exist without a Railway, such as the union between British Columbia and Great Britain. But we propose to establish a union that will endure, and that will render an Overland Railway just as necessary as the arteries in the human body are necessary to circulate the blood and to keep up life. I believe that $1,000,000 is a mere nominal sum, as explained by the Hon. Chief Commissioner, a tangible security that the work will be completed. The expenditure of the first million will be a guarantee that any company or (iovernment undertaking it will carry it through. Every reflecting mind will see that if any company spend .$1 .OOO.uOO a year, they must spend more, and that it will be to their interest to push it through. To say that because we only name a sum of .$1,000,000. that it will be a matter of 100 years is absurd : my rei)ly to this, I cannot call it an argument, is that capitalists could not be found in the world so silly as to sjjread the construction over one hundred, or fifty, or twenty, or even ten years. I cannot support the amendment of the Hon. Mend)er for Victoria District; we must carefully avoid conunitting ourselves to the route or terms of building. I think this may be safely left in the hands of the Dominion (Jovern- nient. It is ust'li'ss to argur that it is of vital importance to them to have the I)est route. The Railway nuist pass through the Colony, and benefit the Colony, no matter where the terminus; it must be in r.ritish Columbia, and consequently a benelit to the whole Colony. I cainiot see that it would be better to begin in the middle. I look ui)on it as an absolute necessity that the Railway should connnence at the seaboard ; moving the material is the great expense that has to be contended against, and the advantage of being able to land the material and lay it down at once ou the road, will be incalculable. If the Railway were to be constructed from a given point ten miles from the seaboard, it would probably pay the contractors to build that piece of the line. I'nless Hon. Members can show us that the material can be brought to the line by way of the Rocky Mountains, don't let us stultify ourselves by asking them to begin in tlie middle. It is right that the work should be commenced simultaneously on the Atlantic and I'acitic sides. I fancy that, as a matter of policy and economy, any company undertaking the work would so commence, without it being named in the terms, as it would undoubtedly be more economical to carry on the work b.v sea from the westward in F.ritish Columbia, and by land from the East. As for the amount named in the conditions, as I have said, I look upon it as a tangible assurance to the people that the thing will be done, rather than as the specific statement of a sum witli the expenditure of which this Colonj will be satisfied. I have some Confederation Debate. 81 doubts about the clause requirini; the Dominiou Government to make a Coach Road. The age for Coach Roads has almost passed away. .Such a road would not meet the requirements of the present day. I would prefer removing this condition, and require the work to be com- menced within two years, or seek compensation in some otlier way as an equivalent for the supposed advantage of the road. The sooner we do our little part towards convincing the Dominion Government that this is necessary, the better. Not only is the Railway a national necessity for the Dominion, but for every fractional part of British North America. The Hon. Mk. HELMCTvEN — I reiterate that Confederation means terms. What feeling now exists in favour of Confederation has l)een brought about by the assertion that Canada will do certain things for the Colony, amongst others, tliat she will build a Railway. If the people are deceived in this matter ; if Canada does not accede to this portion of the conditions, she need not ask the people of this Colony to be tniited. I would asli the people to band them- selves together to demand that the terms shall be verified, and I hope they will take that stand. And I will ask that the promises made by tlie Dominion Government will be strictly performed. ["Hear, hear," from Mr. DeCosmos and Mr. Wood.] Tliis Colony would be just as much isolated as ever after a ]jai)er union, without a Railway as one of the conditions. I acknowledge that we might have such union as exists with England now, with a Railway. We are a Colony of England, and I don't Ivuow that many people ol).iect to being a Colony of England; l)ut I say that very many would object to becoming a Colony of Canada. As a Colony of England we have the right to legislate for ourselves ; if we become a Colony of Canada, that power is taken away. [" No. no," from Mr. DeCosmos.] [Hon. Mr. Robson, it will give us more power.] I say that the power of regulating our own commerce is taken away, and the only power left to us is that of raising taxes for IMunicipal purposes. That is the difference between being a Colony of Canada, and a Colony of England. The distance is so great between this Colony and Ottawa without any Railway and without any Telegraphic communication, that laws might be passed there, which would ruin British Columbia, without our having any notice of them. I do not consider that Canada expects or intends to attempt to make this Railway a paying institution of itself. There are a great many institutions in this Colony which are not paying institutions. Canada takes the view that the Railway is necessary to complete the British line of communication between England and her Asiatic possessions, in order that the English people may shai-e in the carrying trade to China and the East Indies with our American neighbours. Canada expects to influence Great Britiiin to guarantee the loan for the formation of the Rail- way. Great Britain may guarantee the loan for the purpose of having a check on the American line of Railway, but she would never guarantee it for Canadian ])uri)oses only. The people of England v.'ould not tolerate it. I consider this an essential condition. Without it Confederation must not take place. This is one of those things which will be a vast benefit to this Colony and to Canada, and therefore I regard it as a necessary condition. Why should this Colony join Canada except for the benefit of both? We should be better off without Canada if we have no Railway. I say that this Colony had better stand alone than risk everything, without a Railway. What benefit can Canada expect from Confederation with British Columbia without a Railway? Is she afraid of British Columbia being handed over to America? If Canada thinks she can hold British Columbia for her own purposes, and use it when she pleases, and takes her own time to do what she likes with it, she is mistaken. The Railway has been made a lever for Confedera- tion, by Canada. I ask that Cana Hon. :Member is adoitted, we shall find almost immediate benefit from th(> oiK'iiiiig up of the inland trade. It will bring us l)opulation, and will build up fliis City and .\cw Westuiiuster. and other tnwiis through the Colony. I do hope it will receive the support of the Executive Council. Hon. Mr. RING — Sir, I thought we were discussing the necessity of a Railway, hut 1 did not f«me prepared to discuss engineering (piestions as to route; it is wasting words to discuss the topography. That nuist be decided by coinix'tent surveyors. Dur business, as it appears to me, is to insist njion having ,i tliroiigli Uailwny. And i1 is highly desirable that the construction should be conunenced sinmltaneously .at both ends as well as the snrvi-y. I shall thoroughly and cordially support the Government ui>on this clause. Hon. CHIIOF COMMISSIOXIOU — Sir. I thought I had mad(^ the G(iV(>rnnieiit views on this clause sufficiently clear yesterday, in supporting the Hon. the Atloniey-fiencrars nuition; if not. my words could not have thorouglily expressed my meaning. The (Jovernment have not inserted the construction of a Railway into the.se Resolutions on the jtrinciple of local advantages. The 84 Confederation Debate. Hon. Member for Victoria District (^Ir. DeCosnios) seems to argue that we inserted it in order to secure tlie advantages which would accrue to special localities from way trallic. But I can assure the House that the Executive Council entertained no such idea in adjusting the details of this great scheme; they have endeavoured to secure the utmost advantages to the whole ("olduy. YdU will oliserve. Sir. that the clnuse is most gcnenil in its terms, and it was liurposely made so. It does not attemjit to deline tlu' line the road should take; it may have a terminus, as 1 distinctly stated before, at any place on the coast most convenient — at Bentinck Arm, Bute Inlet, or I'.urrard Inlet, or even by crossing the tiords between Vancouver Island and the Mainland, it may come to A'ictoria or Esquinnilt. These details must be left to the parties constructing the line. The Executive Council have avoided all through all secti(mal and local considerations. I stated yesterday, and I rei)eat it again, that I hoped the Railway would follow down the valley of the Eraser Kiver to the seaboard; but the (Jovernment have pur]iosely avoided any definition of any iiarticular line, and have mad(^ it as general as ])ossible. I also said that 1 did not think that the Dominion (iovernment would make the line: and I said so because 1 am well aware that this is not the way in which great works of this character are generally undertaken in these times. I believe that a pi'ivate comi)any. with the assistance of the Dominion (lovernment. and I hope the Inii)ei'ial (Jovernment also, will construct the line. But this is merely surnnse. I know no more of ni.v own actual knowledge than other Members round this board. But I come to this conclusion because I know that it is not considered feasible for (Governments to undertake such works. It has been found to be a great mistake. Then why discuss the suggestions of the Hon. Member for constructing a Railway from Yale to Kamloops. or try to fix details whlcli the spirit of the whole Resolution avoids, when we don't even say the line shall pass Yale or Kandoojis at aliV It is a vast undertaking, and if undertaken at all, it will not be with a view to i)rofit, luit with a view to the future, and as part of the great responsibility of the Canadian Government in contracting alliance with this countr.v. The strenuous desire of the Canadian Government is to make such a line. I think they are able to do it, and we know for certain that they will do it if they can. I do not agree with the Hon. Member for Victoria City (Dr. Helmcken), that Confederation means a Ifailway; the Goveriunent do not sa.v that there shall be no Confederation without a Railway. Hon. Dr. HELMCKEN — No; that is my opinion, and 1 do not put It ftn-wai'd as the oi>inion of the (iovernment. Hon. CHIEF COMMISSIONER— I am glad to have that set right. The (Jovt'rnment believe that the Railway will be made, but they do not make it a sine (/iKt noii ; but if, on a calm view of the Avhole sub.iect in negotiating with Canada, it is found impracticable for Canada to commence to make the Railway at once, then 1 see alternative terms, which will not only suit Canada but the people of this Colony, who. you must remember, will have to pass upon them when they come back from Canada. It has been stated the public mind is impressed with the idea that the insertion of so i)altry a sum as .$l.(M»(i.O(M) will lead to the iiostixniement of the completion of the Railway for fifty .vears. 1 can assure them it is a fallacy. Why, Sir. as well iiut by the Hon. Member for New TS'estminster yesterday, connnon sense shows that it would be against the interest of the jiarties making the line to prolong the work ovCv a innnber of .vears. It can only be carried on (juickly to secure any real ])rofit. I again reiieat what the Government Members stated yesterday so distinctly, that the one million a year is not nearl.v the sum which will have to be spent; the amount stated is only intended to serve as a guarantee or an earnest that the work will be done. If we had said make it in so many years time, they could not have acceded to it. Certainly in three years' time the Dominion (4overiunent will be lu a position to determine the line. The suggestion of the Hon. Member is, in my oi)inion, wholly inai)plicable to this scheme. If admitted It would entirely remodel the (Jovennnent clause, which is general. The suggestion is, that the first section should be made at some jtlace on Eraser River. As I said before, we cannot tell whether the Railway will come down the valley of the Eraser River at all. Those who spend the money have a right to choose their line. As far as m.v own ojjinion goes, I should say that the Canadian (Jovernment will determine the basis of the scheme on engineering considerations of the i)ort best suited for pouring in supplies, and for the cheapest construction of the road. Do not let us hamper so great a scheme by such minute details; let us leave it for those who have to construct the line to select their own route. Hon. Ml!. ROBSON — The Hon. the Chief Commissioner has left very little for me to say upon this clause, but there is one point to which I would direct attention. The Hon. Mend)er Confederation Dehate. 85 for Victoria District lias not sufficiently considered, it seems to me. how the material for the construction of the Ilaihvay would be most easily moved to the line from the sea coast. If the road is to be commenced at Yale, all the vast material and rolling stock would have to be shipped from the port in small steamers up the Fraser River, to a point at which the line, according to the Hon. Member's scheme, would start. The extra expense would be ruinous; and besides, it must be remembered that during a considerable portion of the year the naviga- tion of the river is closed to steamers; and not only is this the case, but these boats cannot take up the engines and cars, but can only carry on the ordinary traffic when the population increases. No; the real, the only proper, course will be to commence to lay the track from the ships to where the material will have to be laid. That alone puts out of the question the commencement of any initial section at Yale, or anywhere else than on the seaboard. Hon. Me. DRAKE — Mr. Chairman, I am glad to hear from Hon. Members that this clause is the pivot of the whole scheme. I hope it will now be well understood that the Railway is the condition in Hon. Members' minds upon which Confederation or no Confederation hangs. I hope that this will be remembered hereafter. This Railway is a gigantic undertaking. I look upon it as merely impracticable. I believe this Railway will cost more than the whole debt of Canada. [" Hear, hear," from Hons. DeCosmos and Robson.] The Government tells us that this Railway is to be a sine qua non. ["No" — Dr. Helmcken.] Why, my colleague, the Hon. Member for Victoria, who is a Privy Councillor, says no. Hon. Dr. HELMCKEN — The Government does not say so ; I say so. Hon. Mr. DRAKE — Well, certain Hon. Members say so. Now, this is what will happen : Canada will agree to a Railway to get Confederation, and Confederation takes place, Canadian officials rule here, and Canadian laws prevail. Three years elapse, and Canada may find it inconvenient or impossible to carry out the Railway. I say that we require a guarantee for the making of the Railway. On Confederation how can we enforce this condition? This difficulty underlies the whole scheme. T ask how we are to get out of it. guard against it. or surmount it? Leave the Confederation? That means rebellion, which is not to be thought of by any law-loving persons. We can't float ourselves out when once in ; then we are bound hand and foot from now to eternity. There should be a penalty of $50,000 for every year in which Canada fails to expend the one million. Hon. ATTORNEY-(5ENERAT.— How do you propose to secure the $50,000? Hon. Mr. DRAIvE — I>y Imperial guarantee. An Hon. MEMBER— How would the guarantee of the President of the United States do? [Laughter.] H(m. Mr. DRAKE — I shall be quite satisfied if the President of the United States indorses the bill. [Laughter.] I consider the Railway the primary and essential condition of Confeder- ation, and I think that Canada is too poor to guarantee such a work as this. She had to go to the Imperial Government to guarantee the payment of the £300,000 to buy out Canadian interests in the Red River Settlements, and I maintain that we are on the right course to ask for an Imperial guarantee now. When we get into Confederation we cannot helii ourselves. If Canada is unable or unwilling to pay the !);i,0(K».00() a year, as soon as it appears necessary to her to throw over the conditions, over they will be thrown. One Hon. Member tells us that Canadian statesmen are " men of unl)ounded ambition." Now, men ot unbounded ambition will not scruple at anything to gain their ends ; that is all they look to. Until a guarantee is obtained. I shall oppose this Resolution. I don't care whether it is the guarantee of the I'resident of the United States or any other that will do. Hon. Mr. RORSON — I have listened with profound astonishment to the remarks of the Hon. Member who has just sat down, upon Cnnnd.i and Canadian statesmen. 1 siiall not condescend to rei)ly to the aspersions. Canada can sujtport herself against all this kind of thing. She is great enough to do so. Such attacks can only come from those who know nothing about those whom they malign. I am a Canadian, and am proud of being one ; hut in this matter of making terms of union, I shall be as exacting as any reasonable Member of this Council can be. I would have all the con the eii(h)rsement of the Queen's I'roclamatiou, 86 Confederation Debate. which lies at the root of these conditions. Can we have or desire better security? ["Hear, hear." from Mr. Trutch.] Hon. Members say we cannot get out, arid that Canada may repudiate. 1 say. nothing of the l^ind. Canada would never be allowed by the Imperial Government to coerce this Colony to remain in Confederation for the fulfilment of one side of a contract of partnership, the terms of which Canada herself has trodden under foot. To entertain such a supposition is. if I may be allowed the expression, an outrage on common sense too absurd to be for a moment seriously entertained. Would the Imperial Government stand by and let Canada send a force of soldiers to compel British Columbia to remain in Con- federation luider such circumstances? The Canadian Government never broke faith yet. and the Imperial CJovernment never broke faith yet, and both are pledged to the fulfilment of this condition. Canada has hitherto gone in advance of her word. The distrustful views of the Hon. junior Member for Victoria (Mr. Drake) are so manifestly unjust that, as it is impossible that they can arise from ignorance. I may be pardoned for attributing them to wilfulness, to a rabid sense of opposition, and a chronic feeling of distrust. To ask the President of the I'nited States to endorse a scheme which emanates from the Imperial Government, I look upon as a monstrous ill-timed joke, against which reason and argument are powerless. I cannot — we cannot discuss it. Now, to go to the ways and means. Why, Sir, It is well known that Canada is rich. Does the Hon. Member know that Ontario and Quebec have $4,000,000 l.ving idle at this moment, carrying low interest. There is plenty of capital in Canada at this moment to build the Pacific Railway. The reason why Canada uses the Imperial guarantee for the £800.(100 is this : She can borro\v cheaper through the Imperial Government, with their guarantee, than without it. Canada frequently borrows money for public works. It pays her to do so. It is simply a beneficial financial operation. Hon. Mr. DRAKE — I rise for the purix)se of explaining that I make no reflections upon Canadian statesmen, but I treat this solely as a matter of business ; and as in other ordinary business. I prefer having an endorsed note to a simple obligation. In the 14.5th section of the British North America Act, an Imperial guarantee for a loan of three millions sterling for a Railway is specified. I think we are justified in making a similar request. Mine is a business condition. I am willing to trust Canada, but I say we are entitled to ask for an endorser. The Hon. Member's remarks have not disturbed my position. Hon. Mr. WOOD — I am obliged. Sir, in the few remarks that I intend to offer, to treat of all the amendments and suggestions together. To my mind, this condition which requires the construotion of the Overland Railway is one of the most important of all the terms. A great deal has been .said about the incorruptibility of Canadian statesmen. No doubt Canadian statesmen are very like all others. Canada acts through her Ministers. Those now in power are. so far as we know, favourable to this scheme. But. without iminiting motives, it must be admitted that it is very possil)le that a Canadian Ministry, some three or four years hence, possibly of the anti-Confederate party, or cold upon the subject of Confederation, when l)ressed l)y circumstances, may be disinclined to carry out the terms, and with perfect consist- ency of political conduct, desire to obtain relief from carrying them out. and their first effort would be to get a vote of the Provincial Legislature to relieve them from the burthen. In the event of Confederation. I should consider this country a Colony of Canada. [Hon. Mr. DeCosmos — " No. an integral part of it."] I say a Canadian Colony, because, as I believe, neither Resi)onsible (Jovernment nor full representative institutions are to be granted under Confederation ; at all events, they are not included in these terms. And under such a consti- tution as we have now, the Canadian Government could easily get a vote of this Legislature to cancel the terms. I repudiate chronic opposition, but I consider it to be my duty to oppose the course that is being taken by some Hon. Meml>ers here. I believe there are some Hon. Members of this House who desire Confederation on any. or without any, terms. [" Name, name," from Hons. Carrall and Robson ; "No, no," from Mr. DeCosmos.] The very gentlemen who speak, if I may judge from their votes. ["No. no."] If I was in favour of Confederation at all; if I did not think that reaction would follow; if I thought that Lord Granville's argument was sound. I should say, " Let us be confederated at once." This brings me to a difference of opinion that exists. Some of us consider the Railway a necessary point in the terms. Many of us, including Lord Granville, consider it essential. The Hon. Chief Commissioner says it is not essential. Hon. CHIEF COMMISSIONER— I never said the Railway was not essential. CONFEDERATIOX DERATE. 87 Hon. Mr. WOOD— I understood the Hon. ilenilier to say that Government did not consider it essential. I fear that it is delusive to hope that the Imperial Government would .i,'ive a guarantee for this Railway. They could only do so on military grounds; hut I am convinced they would never guarantee three thousand miles of an exposed line of Railway within a few miles of the territoriiil houudary, a thing which courts assault and would be so perilous to maintain, seeing that it could he cut in two in a hundred places by hostile forces from the Uuiited States. It requires little reflection to see that Colonial undertakings are seldom guaranteed uow. Canada's interest in the Railway, on the other hand, is purely commercial. For such a Railway to pay, it must iiass through populous districts— places like Omaha and the United States' towns. It is jnonstrous to suppose that England would supi)ly the capital for such a scheme. No capitalists in the world would advance their money for such an under- taking. The matter has been talked threadbare in the public prints. It is out of the question to suppose that there would be any material trade in Imlky goods this way. [Hear, hear, hear, hear.] CVinada, finding the thing difficult, will refuse the terms. ["No, no," from Dr. Carrall.] I say the money will not be spent. I back my knowledge of the world and experience of men and things against the " No. no " of the Hon. Member, and I believe the result will be that the Canadian Government will refuse this item ; and in refusing will say, " We do the best we can ; it is our interest to do the thing, but it is impossible to get the guarantee through Parliament.'' I believe the Canadian statesmen who have the conduct of this matter will say to our Delegates, or to His Excellency, " Don't you think you can do without this Railway? You must take our desire to do it for the deed itself. By and bye, perhaps, it can be accomplished, and by no means so effectually as by becoming a part of our Dominion." And so a quiet go-by will be given to the Railway, and the terms will come back again shorn of this item. If, as the Hon. Chief Connnissioner says, these terms are to come before the people — mind I say the people alone — I believe there is a feeling that Confederation is a movement which ])roinises something, and this feeling will lead to these terms being passed. So weak are commercial and agricultural interests in this Colony at the present time, so small is the population, and the mass of the people are doing so badly and are so dissatisfied thiait, in my opinion, they will vote for anything that will give change and a chance of bettering themselves. I intend. Sir. to move an amendment, with the view of making this Railway a test question : — " That without a substantial guarantee for an Overland Railway, Confedera- tion should be rejected by the Delegates from this Colony." It is obvious that this motion will be defeated, but I am desirous to test the opinions of the representative members of this Council on so material a point as this. The Hon. Chief Commissioner says that these terms are to be decided, eventually, by the representative members alone, — of course, without the official vote. And here I may ask, are the official members, in the event of its ultimate discussion, to retire from the Council, and leave the question to the representative members alone? If we are fit for representative institutions, why not give them to us now? Having promised the Colony terms, I think the Executive are bound to present terms which are good, in the sense of being productive of permanent good and quiet enjoyment. I cannot forbear to say that in place of terms simply providing for pecuniary benefit, I should have preferred to have seen inserted constitutional powers, and powers of self-government. [" Hear, hear." from Hons. DeCosmos, Robson. and Humphreys.] I should have desired to embody these in the conditions; and, in iiarticular, I should have desired to retain full power over the Tariff. Hon. Dk. HEIyMCKEN — The Taritt' is an open question. Hon. Mr. WOOD — (iive us reasonable powers of self-go\'ernm('nt. and I will accept Con- fe position of Canada is so great, beyond cavil and dispute, as not to re(]uire any defender in this Council. Such remarks only recoil upon those who make them. The versatility of spleen displayed by the Hon. gentleman who has just s-at down, only shows the bitterness of the mind that conceived the reumrks. The question now l)efore us is as to Clause s. and upon the discussion of this clause another question has arisen, or rather has been dragged in. namely, that of the ability of Caiuida to fulfil the condition of this particular clause, and it is s.iid that this is to be made a test question. With regard to the idea of any future Canadian Ministry repudiating this condition. I wish. Mr. Chairman, to refer you to English history, and to ask whether you have ever known an instance of an incoming Ministry, whether Whig. Radical, or Toiy. repudiating the plighted troth of their predecessors in office? Such a thing is never done to my knowledge, and so far as my e.xperience of history goes, never has been done. [" Uenr. hear." from Hon. Attorney-General.] I have yet to learn an instance where a loan guaranteed, or anything else undertaken by any Government, has been reimdiated by an incoming Ministry. We might just as well suppose that the guarantee for the loan for the Inter-colonial Railway might be withdrawn by Gladstone, because it was given liy the late Ministry, as that any future party in Canada might entertain the idea of going back from the promises of the present Government. History forbids such an idea. The Hon. and learned Member for Victoria (Mr. Drake) says he wants a guarantee. Well, let him want it. I am perfectly willing that he should want it. For my part. I look ui)on the Queen's I'roclamaitiou as the guarantee which will make the whole thing inviolable. I rH>int to the fact, that every compact entered into with the Maritime Provinces is being fulfilled. Can anyone point to any act of repudiation V No. Sir. Canada has gone beyond her promLses. I repudiate, on behalf of myself and others, the assertion that any member of the confederate party has stated that he would accept Confederation without conditions. I never lieard the Hon. Member for Victoria District, or the Hon. Member for New Westminster, who have taken a prominent part in this great question, make any such statement. I have the honour of being one of the Executive Council who framed these Resolutions, and I believe the terms will be acceptable to a large majority of the i)eople. Those who say that there can be no T'nion without a Railway, speak a fallacy. Railways follow. Look at San FrancLsco and the Eastern States of America. Look at Scotland and England. I am well aware that British Columbia wants a Railway, and I know that Canada wants it. I am sanguine enough to believe that it will l)e made. I am assiired that the money is ready, if the desii-ed guarantees can be obtained. The Hon. Mr. Wood, in his discursive remarks, flew around like a humming- bird buzzing round a rose, and amongst other things touched on the assailabilitj' of the Railroad. I say that the American people have Railways of their own. and we do not intend to have from henceforth daily warfare. With regard to the course of the Railway, the Hon. Chief Commis- sioner has told you that the advantages of the line are greater than those of the existing Pacific line. It is well known that the American Pacific Railway, after passing Omaha, passes through a wild and most difficult country, through miles of wilds and sage-brush. ["No, no." from Mr. DeCosmos.] The North-West Territory is more fertile than any portion of the route of the American Pacific Railway. The Hon. Mr. Wood sjiys he will make this a test question. I say the whole terms are a test (juestion, and no one i>art of them more than another. The Canadian Government ai'e to be asked what they will do, and the final test will be for the decision of British subjects of this Colony. No one thing is a test more than another. The people have the sole right to .say whether they are willing to take the terms as finally offered, or not. I have already spoken twice with regard to Representative Institutions, which the Hon. Mr. Wood regrets are not made a condition. Either I must fail to ])ut my ideas cleai'ly. or Hon. Members misunderstand me. I have said, over and over again, that the people nuist decide this question. His Excellency says that if the newly ctmstitutere. or conK> from Canada to this place, to arrange conditions. I believe in what His Excellency has said. 1 place more reliance on him than on any one else. T believe he will act fairly and .iustly in this matter, nor do I think there is so nuich to fear from Canada as there is from the danger of the people of this Colony cheating themselves; you can make the people believe anything. I do not agree that the country is in such a depressed condition. I know that \'ictoria. the chief city, is in I'ather a depressed condition, and perhaps New Westminster also, but outside it is otherwise. Hon. Mr. WOOD — Is the gold mining interest prosperous? Hon. Mk. HELMCKEX — The Hon. Member asks if the gold mining interest is prosperous. I say that this Colony has no business to depend upon its gold mining interests. Hon. Mk. WOOD— What clsi" h;is she got? 90 Confederation Dehati:. Hon. Mr. HELMCKEX — She has afrricultural interests, coal, lumber, and fi.sheries. What do you send away half a million of dollars for each year? We want a more industrious popula- tion, a productive population. But to return to the Railway: the sooner we get through thi.s Railway the better; it opens so many avenues for dLscussion. I think it is the most essential part of this document. It i.s essentkil to Canada ; through it she hopes to make a country of this Colony ; and it is essential to us. as bringing us prosperity. T believe the Canadian Goveni- ment will make the Railway in the interior. We are told that they have four millions lying idle: they cannot have a hotter investment for it than to Imild a Railroad from Fraser River to Kamloops. Hon. Mr. DkCOSMOS — I remark. Mr. Chairman, that there is a considerable contrast between the views of two Hon. Members of the P^xecutive (^ouncil. 1 mean the Hon. Chief Commissioner (Mr. Trutch) and the Hon. Member for Victoria City (Dr. Helmcken). The former says that it is not proposed to construct a Railway with reference to local interests. He says to advocate our own local interests Is simply inai)posite. I think differently. I think that we should deal with it locally as well as nationally. I presume it is put in the terms' because it is ex]>ected that it will l)enelit the Colony. We don't care so much for its benefiting the peoi»le of Montreal as for benefiting ourselves ; we look at it from a British Columbian point of view. I say with the Hon. ^Member for Victoria City (Dr. Helmcken), that we should deal with it with reference to British Columbian interests. After the discussion of yesterday, I confess my surprise. I thought from the tenor of the Resolutions that the Canadian Govern- ment would construct the line. Now, we are informed by the Hon. Chief Commissioner that it will be undertaken by a ])rivate company. Then, he says if we cannot get a Railway we must have an eiiuivalent. If this clause is not a fixed principle in the terms, then, I ask, what do the Government propose as an erpiivalent? With regard to Railway communication through British Columbia, we ought, in my opinion, to connect Kamloops and the adjacent country with the seaboard. That is. commencing at navigalile water on Frasei" River and ending at Savona's Ferry. Kamloops I-ake. This line, at the utmost, is only 150 miles long. The expense of its construction, at $50,000 per mile, would be $7,500,000. We might safely approach the Canadian Government upon this, irrespective of the terms of Union, under the constitutional provision authorizing the Dominion Government to construct public works of this character. Hon. CHIEF COMMISSIONER — I say again that the scheme of this Railwa.y, on which this clause is based, hangs on the construction of the line from the seaboard. I never said, and never intended to say. that we had no right to take into consideration whether or not local interests would be benefited. I say that I would not dare to stand up here and advocate a special link of a special line. I should think if I did so that I was doing what the Canadian Government could not listen to. But in a great scheme which contemplates a line of Railway from the seaboard of British Columbia to Canada. I consider that the Dominion Government may take a broad view- and strain a point to get it. This clause has been drawn without pre- tending to define the route. I did not say that it was proposed that the line should be built by a private company. I said that it suggested itself to my mind that the line would be built by a private company, not that it was so proposed. I do not disregard local interests. I look upon this Railway as a necessity of the position — a means to the end. I do not advocate it on its merits as to local interests, but as a grand scheme of Transcontinental Railway. Why, Sir, some say that the terminus should be brought to Es(piimalt or Nanaimo. A Railway is wanted in the interests of the Confederacy, but the locality has been generalized as much as possible by the Government. This brings me to another point : though I look upon the Railway as a necessity of the position, in view of the api)roach of Confederation, I would not pledge myself to bind the Dominion Government to the special terms of this chmso. I think it possible that terms may be suggested, instead of this condition, which may be found to be acceptable to the people of this Colony, to whom, as you know. His Excellency says the matter must be referred. I do not look upon the Railway as unessential. I say it is essential ; for without unity of interests Confederation cannot endure. If I did not think that under Confederation we should be governed satisfactorily and to our advantage, I would oppose Confederation, and would advise its aliandonment. I do not say. and I am not going to bind myself, that unless that clause is granted l)y Canada I shall not vote for Confederation, a 1 though I think it essential to the position. Confederation Debate. 91 Hon. Mr. WALKEM — ;Mr. Chairman, having heen unfortunately ahsent during the early- part of this debate, I have not heen able, hitherto, to take part in it. I adopt the principle laid down by the Hon. Chief Commissioner with regard to this clause, hut I think the clause is not general enough. It is true, that it is sufficiently general as to a part, but not as to the whole. Enough has been said about the spending of .f;i,000,()00 to show what it means. I would leave out the one million. It would be enough, in my opinion, to say that it shall he constructed within a reasonable time. This would mean not an indefinite, but a reasonable, time; it would be so interpreted by the Law Courts. I would leave out the definition of time, and I would leave out the one million. I think it will do us injury with Canadian statesmen ; they will say that this is the measure of our desire to be confederated. There is another point to which I would call attention. The language of the clause does not, in my opinion, imply that one million must necessarily be expended within the Colony. I conclude, after hearing the explanations of Hon. Members, that it is intended that the one million shall be spent here; but in my opinion it might, under these words, be expended on any part of the line. I thought that was the intention; it was so thought in San Francisco. There were newspaper articles upon it, and the idea of a million a year being spent upon the Railway for a hundred years was laughed at on all sides. I would suggest an alteration in the words. I am ready to leave the construction of the English to any schoolmaster. I say that they do not mean " in the Colony." With regard to the remarks of the Hon. Member for Victoria District, I would remark that this is not really a final contract, and I agree with the Hon. Chief Commissioner that the clause ought to be general. The Canadian statesmen, with whom we are about to deal, are not mere tyros; and I say that the mention of this one million leaves it open to Canada to keep the time open. If they expend that sum upon any portion of the line, they will be able to prolong the building of the road as long as they please. And, although it may be said that Canada will take care of us, I say we ought to take care of ourselves. Let us get as good terms as possible, not trusting to the Canadians, but looking after our own interests. We should, in my opinion, abstain from all mention of one million dollars, or any other sum ; otherwise the Canadian Government may say that on payment or expenditure of that sum they will have completed their bargain. Hon. ATTORNEY-GENERAL— I rise. Sir. to defend my English. This clause was settled after much consideration, in the first place emanating from the Hon. Chief Connnissioner of Lands and Works. I conceive that the words — " and that a sum of not less than ,$1,000,000 " shall be expended in every year, from and after three years from the date of I'nion, in " actualy constructing the initial sections of such Railway from the Seaboard of British " Columbia, to connect with the Railway system of Canada," fully convey the meaning that it was intended they should. The language means that the expenditure should be within this Colony, and it can mean nothing else. The schoolmaster cannot have been where the Hon. Member has just visited, or he would not have so misconstrued this clause. I may confirm what the Hon. Chief Commissioner says, that if in conununication with the Canadian Govern- ment it is found that they will not consent to the Railway, it is thought that we may obtain some equivalent. I must vote against the amendment of the Hon. Member for Victoria District (Mr. DeCosmos), as it proposes to enter into details affecting particular localities. I regret that the Hon. Member, who usually takes such large and extended views. shlates. Hon. Mr. WOOD — I think the Penitentiary ought to be in the best and most central place; wherever the i)risou can be best maintained. I would leave it to the Dominion (Joverument to decide the place. Hon. Mr. HOLBROOK — Why should not Victoria be struck out of this clause altogether? CONFEDEUATIOX DeI'.ATE. 93 Hon. Mk. KORSOX — I did not sug!j;est New Westminster in any local or sectional spirit. I rather did it to divest the clause of local and sectional si)irit; though, at present, population and other things point to \'ictoria as tlie jjropcr place for a Marine Hospital and Luuatic Asylum ; ])nt we nuist look to the future, the poi)ulation must ultimately he largest on the Mainland. [Hon. Mr. Ring — "No, no." J Surely the Hon. Memher for Nanaimo will not assert that the population of the Island will in time to come exceed that of the Mainland. I have no dasire to give any sectional complexion to the liesolutions. Hon. CHIEF COMMISSIONEK — Sir. I desire to say that in my opinion the Penitentiary will ultimately he on the Mainland, perhai)S at New Westminster or Burrard Inlet, where it is proliable the Railway will come. I can easily believe that the Hon. Member for New Westminster does not advocate New Westminster from local motives, but I must defend the Resolution as it stands. I think it better to leave it to the peoiile who find the nioney to select the place. The position is not the same as regards the Marine Hospital. It should be at Victoria or Esijuimalt. or at some intermediate place, on account of this being the head quarters of the Navy ; just as I think Esquimalt is the i)roper place for the Dock. I believe that New Westminster will be the place, but I cannot, on principle, vote for the recommendiition. The Chairman put the recommendation of the Hon. Mr. Robson to the Connnittee — Lost. Clause 9 was then passed as read. The Hon. ATTORNEY-UENERAL— I move the adoption of Clause 10. which reads thus :— " 10. Etficient Coast Mail Steam Service, in connection with the Post Office, shall be estab- " lished and maintaiued by the Government of the Dominion, between Victoria and New West- " minster, Nanaimo, and such other places as may require such services.'' I'ntil we have roads within the Colony, these services must be carried on for some time to come by water. I consider it to be a ver.v proper item. Hon. Mr. DeCOSMOS— I suggest the addition of I'uget Sound. Hon. ATTORNEY-GENERAL— I object to such an addition, because Puget Sound does not come within Coast Mail Service. Hon. Mr. HOLBROOK — Then are we to sujipose there are to be no other Ports of Entry, other than Victoria? I '* No, no, no," from all sides.] The Chairman i)ut the recommendation of the Hon. Mr. DeCosmos. which was lost. Clause 10 was then passed as read. The Hon. ATTORNEY-." — the number that (^)uebec now ha.s — to the population of Quebec. It ought to exist at this imnibe^r until issl. or |S!)1. Hon. ATTORNEV-(JE\in{.\L — I would i-emaiU tb;it in my opinion Clause ."1 does not a]iply: we come in under Clause IK!. The limi. .Menibcrs now reprcscni iiig \icloria City and District (Messrs. Helmcken ami DeCosnios), when tliey proposed to telegraph were a little late. However if we now lix the date, for wMch a blank is purposely left, that will settle the matter beyond any doubt. 04 COXFEDERATION DEBATE. Hon. CIIIKF COlNOIlSSIONEli — In my opinion. Sii-. we are better off than if we were included. The only thing we have to do is to fix a date. If we ]mt the date back to a remote period, we mijrht be doinj; ourselves an injustice; for we might be entitled to more. I would put if off for 20 years, filling uj) the date by inserting 18!)1. Hon. Mr. HOLKKOOK— I think ten years quite tniough, we shall have more than 120,000 in that time, and be entitled to increased representation. Hon. Mr. DeCOSMOS — Mr. Chairman, during the i)vevious debate an Hon. Member referred to 120.000 as the basis of representation, as well as the basis of jjopulation. We find this echoed by others, last, but not least, by the Hon. Attorney-General himself. I am surprised to find the Hon. and learned gentleman setting this up as a basis. For the basis of represen- tation under the Organic Act was the basis of rei>resentation allowed to Quebec, that is. one member for every 20.0(i0. It is proposed that we shall have eight members; then the popu- lation ought to be 160.000; but it is only set up as 120.000. which number would only entitle us to six members. Now. Sir. I li.ive no objection to getting eight members for the House of Commons, and four for the Senate; but I do object to Hon. Members and newspapers spreading abroad sitiitemeuts which have no foundation in fact. I think our i)opulation has been over estimated. It is going abroad that 120.000 is the proper foundation for representation; I say it is not .so. The honest straightforward and manly course is for our (Government to say to the Dominion Government, that it is necessary for us to have a larger representation on territorial grounds. The whole thing resolves itself into expediency ; beyond expediency I say that no one can find a fulcrum for the assertion. I would clieerfully support twelve and six .so far as it goes. IJut I do denounce that want of principle and want of truth that surrounds this basis. There is another question about the representation to which due attention does not seem to have been given ; it is this : the electoral qualification in Canada is too high, and it will be most objectionable to have the same qualification thrust upon us. The qualification of members may safely be left to the Dominion Government. F>ut that of electors is too high, and will be a soiirce of irritation, which the (Government should endeavour to remove now. I should have moved a recommendation as to this, but from the treatment which my amendments have received in this House. I am inclined to let it pass, and I shall move my amendments before my constituents. On motion of the Hon. Mr. Dewdney, the Committee rose, rei)orted progi'ess, and asked leave to sit again. Several Meml)ers having left the House, on motion of the Hon. Mr. Robson the Committee sat again. Hon. Dr. HELMCKEX — Mr. Chairman. I find the average of representation in the Dominion Parliament is one member to 15.000. That, on the liasis of 120.000, gives eight members. Nova Scotia has 19 members for 30.000, New Briuiswick has 12, Newfoundland has S members. All we have to do is to take care that we are not included in the census of 1871. Our number cannot be diminished, so we may put it at ]ssl safely. As for fictitious numliers, it is useless to talk about it. Hon. Mr. CARRALI I move that the date " 18S1 " be inserted. Hon. CHIEF COMMISSIONER— I do not See that of necessity the number cannot be decreased. I would name a more distant date. Hon. Mr. RORSON — I would not take a more distant date, because I think we shall have a larger i)opulati(tn in 1881. Hon. Mr. DRAKE — From Section (jl of the Organic Act. I think our number might be reducfHl. I think it improbable we shall have a iiopulation of 120.000 in 1881. And if we have not that number then. I tliiiik it jjossible that we may be reduced. I shall therefore vote for 1801. Hon. ATTORNEY-GENERAL— T shall support the date 1891. Hon. Mr. WOOD — I move a recommendation to ins(>rt the words " not less than." before "4 and 8," and after the word "eighteen" to in.sert "91." Hon. ATTORNEY-GENERAL — I cannot see the use or necessity for the words "no less." Hon. Ml!. ROP.SON — I think the words are important. We might in 1881 be entitled to more or less. Hon. Mr. DRAKE — I hold to 91, because I think it likely we might be reduced if we fix the date at 81. Confederation Debate. 95 Hon. Mk. DkCOSISIOS — I think we onirht to fix a uuniiimni numlier and keep to it. and a date, because I think that when the distrust wears away. British Coluniliia may l)e content with three in the Senate, and six in the House of Commons. The Chairman put the recommendation of the Hon. Mr. Drake, to fill up the blank with the figures " 91." Carried. The Chairman put the recommendation of the Hon. Mr. Wood — " That the numVter of members to the Commons should never be less than 8, and to the Senate never less than 4."' Carried. Clause 13 was then passed as read. The Coumiittee rose, and reported progress, and obtained leave to sit again on Friday at one o'clock. Friday, ]Maech ISth, 1870. The Hon. ATT0RXP:Y-GENERAL— I rise to move the adoption of clause 14 :— " 14. The I'uion shall take effect on such day as Her Majesty by Order in Council (on " an Address to that effect, in terms of the 14Gth Section of ' The Britishi North America "Act, 1867,') may direct: and British Columbia may, in such Address, specify the Districts, " Counties, or Divisions, if any, for which any of the four Senators to whom the Colony shall " be entitled shall be named, the Electoral Districts for which — and the time within which — " the first Election of Members to serve in the House of Commons shall take place." These terms, or rather the terms which come back from Canada, will of necessity come before the new electoral body, whose existence His Excellency has shadowed forth, and the particulars as to the division into districts must be left for the decision of that House. It is impossible at present to specify the time. Hon. Mr. DeCOSMOS — Cannot an approximate time be named? Besides there are other things upon which the country will want information; such, for instance, as whether the voting for members will lie by ballot, and what is to be the qualification of voters. I think it ought to be fixed. The Dominion law is more liberal than that to which the people of this country have been accustomed. I believe in the ballot, but it will be better to leave it to the constituencies. Hon. CHIEF COMMISSIONER— This clause has been left general, that it may be settled by the newly-constituted Council. Hon. Dr. HELMCKEN — If there is a qualification for the House of Commons it must be general for the whole Dominion. At present I believe the qualification is that existing in the Provinces before union. T'ltimately there must be a (pialification for the whole Dominion. Hon. Dr. CARRALL — There is no general law for qualification. Hon. Mr. Hl'MPHREYS — The clause is indefinite and dangerous. The Dominion qualifica- tion will virtually disfranchise half the British settlers in British Columbia. We are legi.slating in the interests of the people ; this ought to be determined at once. Hon. Mr. DeCOSMOS — I believe in British subjects, having a fixed residence, and of a certain age, voting in British Columbia. It should be a residential manhood suft'rage. Hon. Dr. HELIMCKEX — We cannot deal with the subject now. It is impossible to divide the Colony into districts until we know haw many Senators we are to have. Hon. Mh. HOLBROOK — Mr. ChairniiUi. I move a reconuiieiHlation to strike out the words " if any." Hon. Mr. WOOD — I think the words ought to stand. The Organic Act says that Senators shall be selected for districts; but it may lie desirable Ihat Senators .should be appointed for the whole Colony. They are ndHiin.itcd, and nominated because they are the best men tluit the Governor can obtain. [No, no. no — Hon. DeCosmos. | I believe the Executive are in the best position to know whether the principle of appointing Senators is best or whether they should go for the whole Colony. Hon. Mr. IirMPIIliEYS — As this stands it thi-ows the whole power into the bands of the Canadians. The Lieutenant-Governor will be a Canadian and will aanii' Canadians. AVe ought to know by whom these appointments are to be made. 9G Confederation Debate. Hon. Mr. ROBSOX — It i.s a Ki'eat pity that these sectional differences should be allowed to prevail. We ouirht to consider oiir.selves British Coluni])ians. The Governor-General, with the consent of his Council, appoints tlie Ijieutenant-Governor. and the Lieutenanit-(Jovernor. with the advice of his Cabinet, recommends the Senators. | No. no — Hon. Dr. Helmcken.] Yes, it is so. He recommends to the Governor-(ieneral. who appoints. It is a great pity to raise these disputes about Englishmen and Canadians. Hon. Mr. HI'MrHREYS— It is all very well to talk that way. I maintain that the English- men sitting at this table have said less as to nationality tlian the Canadians. Wo want to be governed by British Columbians. Hon. Dr. HEI.MCKEX — We had better drop these nationalities. lion. Mh. wood — The Hon. Member for New Westminster should not be angry because we want to provide against the possibility of ill-feeling by finally precaution. " Safe bind, safe find."' When the (Tovernor-General appoints Senators, if I understand it right, he appoints the political friends of his Cabinet. If we are to have Responsible Government there will always lie some check; if not we may be in the jiosition of having members selected by the Lieutenant-Governor without the assistance of any responsible Cabinet. [Hear, hear — Hon. DeCosmos.] A Canadian IJeutenant-(»overnor will act with the same sort of feeling that the English (Jovernment will. Senators will be selected by favouritism, and supporters of Confed- eraition will doubtless be selected in this Colony, unless we have Responsible Government and Re])resentative Institutions in full vigor. Canadian interests will doulitless be very prominent in this Colony, and power acts injuriously on the human mind — it is one of the corruptors of the mind. Hon. ATTORNEY-GENERAL— T should be very sorry to see the words " if any " struck out; their retention leaves the matter open. Hon. JNIembers seem to liave forgotten that Senators must be residents of British Columbia. Probably they may be selected on the ground of their having an aiti)reciation of the whole country, instead of a section only. It may lie that Senators will be appointed for the whole Colony. Hon. Mr. HOLBROOK — After hearing the explanations of the Hon. Attorney-General, I feel more desirous to press my recommendations, to show that we from the Mainland desire to have our fair share of representation. I think the words most objectional)le. Hon. Mr. DeCOSMOS — I find by the Resolutions passed at the Conference of Delegates in I^ondon, that Senators were to be taken from the Legislative Council. We are told by the (iovernment that we are to go into Confederation without Responsible Government; then we ought to have a guarantee that the first Senators shall be representative men, and that they shall not be chosen by the Governor and put into office for life without reference to the people. Hon. Mr. HI'MI'HREYS — I shall move a recommendation that the first Senators shall be nominated by the Legislature. Hon. Dr. HELMCKEN— The position will be worth .^^COO. The difiiculty will be to get anyone to go there. I'eople are chary of going into the Legislative Council now, and thvy will not he very anxious to go to Canada. As to choosing Senators from one place, it is out of the question. And it is equally out of the question to appoint them by the Legislative Council. Hon. Mr. HI'MI'HREYS— We are here as the agents of the people, delegates in i)oint of fact, and we are bound to legislate in accordance with the well understood wishes of the l)eople. In reference to having these Senators appointed, we are liound to see what they are and whether the peoi)le are likely to approve of our acts. Hon. ATTORNEY-CiEXERAL — Hon. Members nmst remember that these Resolutions will be sulimitted to the iieoiile. a much-abused term, as the Hon. Member for Victoria District has truly said, and our coniiiion oli.ject n)ust be to make the terms acceptable to the people. They will have to pass ui)ou them in the last resort, and to say we will or we will not have them. Hon. Mr. PEMBERTON — The objection seems to me to be to dividing British Columbia into districts. It is a (pialification for Senators that they must reside in their districts; there- fore. I think it will not be desirable to divide the Colony into districts. I think the clause should stand as it is. Hon. Mr. ROBSOX — One matter deserves attention in connection with this item. I believe that the indemnity to Senators is ."ftiOO in a lump sum. without travelling expenses. I think it is now commuted, and this would place British C\)lumbia Senators at a disadvantage with others. It is no hardship to other I'rovinces. but would be most unfair to British Columbia. Travelling expenses both ways should be allowed. Confederation Debate. 97 Hon. ATTORNEY-GEXEUAI.— My conviction is that niileaiie is now allowed. If I am right, ten cents a mile both wa.vs is allowed. Hon. Mr. BARNARD — It is the prerogative of the Governor; we had better vote for the repeal of the Organic Act. Hon. Mr. DeCOSMOS — Under the proposed constitution Senators would be chosen by an irresponsible Governor, on the advice of an irresponsible Minister. Those who own this country do not want such a state of things to be. Hon. Mr. WOOD — It is better to bear in mind that the Organic Act applies to three, or at the most four. Provinces : Canada East, Canada West, and the Maritime Provinces. Here we want exceptional terms. Hon. Mr. ROBSON — Hon. Members seem to assume that we are going to enter Confedera- tion without Responsible Government. This I repudiate. I say we shall enter with privileges equal to other Provinces. I decline to assume anything else. With regard to the appointment of Senators by the Legislative Council, I would ask by what Council? By this or by the new House? It would not satisfy the people that a Council nominated by the Governor should appoint : and it is yet to be seen that the new House, as shadowed forth by the Governor, would be less objectionaltle than this one. We are entirely in the dark. Hon. Mr. HUMPHREYS — As I understand it. these Senators are to be appointed after Confederation, and consequently the recommendation I'efers to the new Council. His Excel- lency says that he will give a ma.iority to the popular members, and I have no doubt he means what he says. I believe him to be a most estimable gentleman ; but I have a feeling that he has been misled. It is not likely that in a few weeks' travel he could understand the wants and feelings of the people. You must eat, drink, and sleep among them to understand a people. If I were a great Government contractor I would support the Government. I ask some reason of rank. It would be very easy to give ns a majority of two or three popular members ; but unless we have a large naajority of representative mem))ers the Government might still get their own way. Hon. jMr. ROBSON — I desire, Mr. Chairman, to answer two points. I believe we shall fight for and have Responsilile Government. In referring to the Governor's speech, the Hon. Member for Lillooet says the new Council will be just similar to this ; that it will still be unrepresentative. I cannot see why there should be this doubt about the constitution of the new Council. If there were to be only a majority of two or three the Council would still be unrepresentative; and the i)eople will not be contented with such a form of Government. The argument of the Hon. Member for Lillooet refutes itself in the most conclusive way. The people do not want an unrepresentative House not having their confidence to elect their Senators. Hon. Mr. RING — What have we to do with the Organic Act? Why should we put ourselves under the iron points of the Organic Act, and be dragged under a harrow all the days of our lives? If the Act is wrong it must be repealed. Now is the time to express our opinion. The Chairman put the reconnnendation of Mr. Humphreys, which on division was lost, and of Mr. Robson, which on division was lost. Clause 14 passed as read. Hon. ATTORNEY-GENERAL — Sir. I rise to move the adojition of clause fifteen, which is as follows : — " lij. The constitution of the lOxecutive authoi'ity and of the Legislature of British Columbia, "shall, subject to 'The British North America Act, 1SG7,' continue as existing at the time of " union, until altered under the authority of the Act." And l)efore touching upon the merits of the Resolution itself, I wish to explain that the time which nuist necessarily elapse before Confederation will allow ample opportunity to procure a change in the Constitution, and I desire to impress ui)on Hon. INIembers that this (luestion of alteration in the form of Government is not necessarily connected with the Resolu- tion now before the House. 1 nialart of the Government to shirk the question. The matter of (the Constitution is under ne.iiotiation between this (\)lony and the Im])erial (iovernmeut at this moment. Supi)osin,s;j these Resolutions are passed, other ne.icotiations must take place. First. Canada has to accept them; then there is reference liack to British Columbia to submit to the popular vote, so that there will be full time allowed for the new institutions to be inauijurated. If the people sa.v that they do not want the terms, but that they want Responsible Government, they will inidoubtedly set it. I cannot c(mceive our jroing into Confederation with a Crown Council ; we must expect to so in with fuller Representative Institutions. If we do not have Confederation under these terms, we shall. nevertheU'ss. have Representative Institutions: and a majority, under the Imi)erial Act. will have the power to change and get Responsible (Jovernment. — that is. i)arty government. My point is, that it is unneces.sary to drag in Respon.sible Government now; it is not necessary to mix it up with these Re.solutions. Our vote on this Resolution need not be decided on Responsible Government, or party govern- ment. We shall still be open to send any other Resolution on the subject of party government to the (Governor. I. tlun-efore. throw out the invitation to discuss it more fully on a future day. I feel sure that if this course is adopted the discussion will be more free. Hon. Mh. ring — I think, Sir. that Kis Excellency's message, if I may so call these Resolutiims, invites us to discuss Responsible Government. Sir, we have been in former days favoured with Representative Institutions, and have been defrauded by them. I desire to know what we have gained by the Irresponsible Government that has for some years past oppres.sed us. What, I ask, has been done about the Aiarious questions that have come up — the Sisters' Rocks, the Court of Appeal? The answer has been no funds. Where do the funds come from? From the people. If the Governor heard the views of the people, he might, perhai)S, change his views. I ask Hon. Members hei'e. who have lived under Responsible Government in (Jreat Britain. [Hear, hear, from Mr. DeCosmos] not to be recreant to their country. Hon. Menilters on the other side may say they are against Responsible (jOvernment and refer to a former House of Asseml)ly of Vancouver Island. This is no argument. I trust that Hon. Members loving British institutions will be true to their country. Because there are defects in some Assemblies, do not let us run into the abject error of saying we are not tit for self-government. We have borne this too long. Do not let us hand over to Canada our consent to submit to this degradation. Let us not say that we are not fit ; that we surrender the question of self-government. Who. I ask, has examined the people? Who has tried them and discovered whether or not they are competent to exercise the privileges of Responsible Govern- ment? There are many jjoints in this clause which demand discussion, but I am not going to exhaust myself. I say, however, that the clausi'. it places it i)eyond the power of the colonists to obtain the form of Government which they, as 1 believe, really want; and if we pass it we shall olitain no more than that slightly more liberal form which is fore- shadowed in His Excellency's Speech, under the cover of Representative (Jovernment. Pro- foundly impressed as I am with the gravity of the subject we are now called upon to consider. 100 V Confederation Debate. any remarks I may be enabled to offer will proceed rather from a sense of duty to my con- stituents and to my country than from any hope of clianging the views or influencing the vote of any Honourable Member. What is liesponsible Government? I have been led to believe that considerable confusion of ideas exists upon this point; and I was the more impressed with this upon listening to the remarks of the Honourable Member for Cariboo, a few days ago. That Honourable, gentleman compared the introduction of Responsible Government into this Colony to applying the machinery of tlie Great Eastern to a dairy churn. Now, Sir, Responsible Government is not a quantity: it is a principle: and as such it is applicable to (lie Great Eastern or to a dairy churn. — cai)able of being applied to a tiny lady's watch. It is a principle admirably adapted to the largest conununities in the Old World. It is a principle admirably adapted to the smallest conununities in the New World. It is a principle that may be worked out in a cal)inet of a hundred. It is a principle which may be successfully worked out in a cabinet of three. Without it no Government can, in the true sense, be called a people's Government. All true Governments derive their power from the people. All true Govern- ments nnist be responsible to the people. Responsible Government is, then, a principle which may be adapted to, and successfully worked out in. this community. If this proposition is incontrovertible, which I maintain it is. wlio can say that British Columbia is not large enough for Responsible Government? There are men here of ability to form a Cabinet. The Cabinet of the day is. luider the responsible system, the Government, just so long as it has the confidence of a majority of the representatives of the people in the House. In the event of that contidence being lost, one of two courses is open : The ^Ministers place their resignation in the bauds of the Governor, who commonly calls upon a prominent member of the opposition to form a Ministry ; or, if they believe that tlie House does not truly represent the people upon the question at issue, tliey advise a dissolution and an appeal to the country. What would Responsible Government have to do here? In dealing with this question I, of course, assume British Columbia to be a Province of the Dominion ; and, I confess, that were it otherwise, were it proposed to remain a separate Colony, the case would be different. I do not say that even then I would not advocate the introductiou of Responsible Government, but that advocacy might be less hearty and less firm. Regarding British Columbia as a Province of the Dominion, the chief objections are removed by the removal to Ottawa of all those larger and more complex questions of legislation which might threaten to crack the brain of our embryo statesmen. The Local Government would alone have to deal with local questions, and thus it would have very simple duties to discharge — scarcely more difficult, in fact, than those falling within the functions of a large uumicipality in Canada. Ai*e the people in British Columbia tit for it? And here I would express my sincere regret that the representative of Her Majesty in this Colony has felt it to be his duty to pronounce an adverse opinion. I will yield to no one. either in this House or out of it, in entertaining a high respect for His Excellency, for his talent, experience, and honesty of purpose; but I do say, — and I say it with respect, more in sorrow than in anger, — that I cannot think his knowledge of the people of this Colony was such as to justify him in so early pronouncing upon their fitness for self-government. Hon. ATTORNEY-GENERAL— The Honourable Member for New Westminster will. T am sure, pardon the interruption, but I feel it to be my duty to deny that the Governor ever said, or that any memiier of the Government has said or tliouglit. that the people of British Columbia are unfit for self-government. Hon. Mr. ROBSOX — I thank the honotirable and learned Attorney-General, and I appreciate his motives. There is no one less disposed than myself to speak or write one word calculated to weaken the hands of the (Government, or cause the well-deserved popularity of His Excellency to wane; but .vet I cannot conceal from myself the fact that a mere play upon words will not mend matters. Whether it is the Colony or its inhabitants that has been pronounced unfit for self-government, the practical results remain the same; and it is with these we alone are con- cerned. From my own knowledge of the people, and it is the result of eleven years' contact with them, I have no liesitation in saying they are pre-eminently fitted for self-government. There ai'e scores of men in this country with calloused palms and ])atched garments, well fitted by natural endowments, education, and i)ractical experience in the working of Responsible Government in other Colonies, to occtip.y seats either in the Legislative Assembl.v or in the Cabinet of British Columbia. He who would judge of the intelligence and mental acquirements of men in this Colon.v by outward appearance and by present occupation, certainly would not judge righteous judgment. The opinion of His Excellency the Governor to the contrary not- CONFEDERATIOX DERATE. 101 withstanding, I boldly assert that the people of British Colnmhia are fit for Responsible Government. Do they want it? Doubtless there are those in this House, possibly even in the unoflicial ranks, who will deny that the people of Britisli Columbia really desire to have Responsible (Government under Confederation. It is sometimes difficult to acooinit for diver- gence of opinion; but I venture to think that I have the wei.eht of both argument and evidence on my side when I assert, as I do, that the great body of the people — certainly an overwhelming majority — do earnestly and intelligently desire that form of government. It is difficult to believe that any man who has given due thought to the subject can possibly hesitate. Loolc at the position this Colony would occupy under Confederation, without the full control of its own affairs — a condition alone attainable by means of Responsible Government. While the other Provinces only surrender Federal questions to the Central Government, we would surrender all. Wliile the other Provinces with which it is pro])osed to confederate upon equal and e([uitable terms retain the fullest power to manage all Provincial matters, British Columbia would surrender that jiower. Her local as well as her national affairs would virtually be managed at Ottawa. Could a union so unequal be a happy and enduring one? The compact we are about to form is for life. Shall we take into it the germ of discord and disruption? The people desire change ; but they liave no desire to exchange the Imperial heel for the Canadian heel. They desire political manumission. I stand liere, and, in the name of my ancestors, protest before Heaven against the surrender of constitutional rights purchased by the best blood of our race — a priceless legacy we have no right to barter away, even if we would. We owe it to our ancestors to preserve entire those rights which they have delivered to our care. We owe it to posterity not to suffer their dearest inheritance to be destroyed. But, if it were possible for us to be insensible of these sacred claims, there is yet an obligation binding upon ourselves, from which nothing can acquit us ; a personal interest which we cannot surrender. To alienate even our own rights would be a crime as much more enormous than suicide, as a life of civil security and political freedom is superior to a condition of serfdom ; and if life be the bounty of Heaven, we scornfully reject the noblest part of the gift if we consent to surrender that certain rule of living, and those constitutional rights, without which the condition of human nature is not only miserable but contemptible. I know but too well that the people of this Colony have, during these .vears past, l)een unjustly and luiconstitutionally deprived of their rights ; but the per]ietration of a wrong in the past can constitute no argument for perpetrating that wrong in the future ; and it would appear a most fitting moment, when a new constitution is about to be offered, to demand the full restoration of political rights of which we have been for some time so unjustly deprived. A word about the constitution which the Governor proposes to confer upon this Colony. Regarding it in the dim light shed upon it by the Executive, it is not unfair to assume that there will be one more popular Member taken into the Executive, and that the people will have a majority of two in the Legislature. I^et us suppose that the Legislative Council has 20 Members, 11 elected by the peojjle and 9 appointed by the Governor, Three are taken from the 11 into the mysterious chamber of the Executive, where they i^ecome — I will not say corrupted^ — manipulated; educated to see things somewhat differently from what they saw them before. In a House so constituted, is it unfair, is it uncharitable to conclude that, on all Government measures at least, the Government would command a maj]e of British Columbia as full control over their own local affairs as is en;;oyed in the other Provinces with which it is proi)osed to confederate: therefore, lie it " Resolved. That an humble address be jiresented to His Excellency the Governor, earnestly reconnnendin.i,' that a Constitution based upon the principle of Responsible (Government, as existing in the Province of Ontario, ma.v be conferred upon this Colony, coincident with its admission into the Dominion of Canada." Hon. ATTORXEY-GENERAr^ — Allow me to observe on this, tliat the Hon. Member is asking the Government to grant what it has no power to give. Hon. 'SIk. ROBSON — The Governor has promised to seek the power to grant us a new Constitution. We only ask that in that new Constitution we may have Responsible (ioveru- meut. Hon. Mr. DeCOSMOS — Mr. Chairman. I do not intend to occupy the House for many minutes. I agree with the Hon. Member for Lillooet, and I disagree with the Hon. ^lember for New Westminster. I think. Sir, that we ought to have representative institutions and Responsible Government, irrespective of Confederation. The Hon. ilember for New West- minster's proposition unites it with Confederation. I think this is a mistake; but it is of no matter, so long as we get it. I look upon British Columbia as a municipality under the British Crown. Cnder Canada it will be a municipality witli less power. Anyone who knows anything of municipal law knows that it is based upon three principles : territor.v, authority, and respon- sibility. This Colony has the first two, and we are now asking for the third, and the terms sent down to the Council do not contain the elements of responsiliility of the Executive to the people. Everything is tending to this point. Without responsibility, no matter how elective the new Council is, it will be a failure. The people want Responsible Government and repre- sentative institutions under any circumstances. I think the people would be traitors to themselves if they accepted any form of Government which had not the element of respon- sibility. I would rebel if there were enougli like me in the Colony, and arrest every memlter of the Government that I tliought was robbing me of my rights. I would go to a further extreme. However, I shall not trouble the House with a long speech on this matter, as I consider it of little use. This question ended, I am contented to leave this Council and go to my constituents. Hon. Dr. CARRALL — Mr. Chairman, I should like to ask what all this breeze is about? It is perfectly clear to all that as soon as we enter the Confederacy the people of this country can have any form of Government they desire. I refuse to take up the issue without Con- federation, in a state of isolation. We are dealing with Confederation. I am. eipially with the Hon. Member for New Westminster, aware of the priceless boon of responsibility which exists in England, wliich may fairly be called the standard-bearer of nations, and I am equally aware that the same resitonsibility does not exist in the T'nited States. During the late war I was in the T'nited States army. Stanton, the then Secretary of War. was a most unpopular man. They wanted to get rid of biiu. but he could not be removed. When I took the ground that Resi)onsilile Government was not expedient, it was not because I did not approve of the system. It is. I say, the wisest and best form of Government, but it is too cumbrous for this Colony. I will rei)eat my objections: The Council contains no men of influence, the con- stituencies ;ire too i-emote. and the inhabitants ai*e all engaged in bread-seeking: (here are few men of indepi'iident means who would take part in Responsilile (Jovernment, and, conse(iuently, the direction of public affairs would fall into the hands of men who are not fitted, or (pialitied to govern the country, or otherwise into the hands of \ii'. Ilelmcken") wci-c elected for Carihoo. I say. tlicii. thai il niusl fall into bad hands, or into the hands of \'icloriaiis. I otter that argvnneiU as a British Columbian. The Executive Council do not care one (ig wbai sort of Government the people take. The E.xecutive say the question is one for (he peopl(> to decide. We luive a measure of responsibility now. The Hon. Member for New Westminster says that His Excellency will do certain things. I take his speech as it reads, and I have no doubt that a majority of the people's repi'esentatives will sit round the board; none know how great the majority will be. [Attorney-General — " Hear, 104 COXFEDERATION DEBATE. hear."] Kespousible Government has never been made a distinct issue throughout the Colony. ["It has" — Mr. DeCosmos.l The Hon. Member says that it has; I say it has not. It has been named with Confederation, but not by itself; and until it is made a separate question, my advice to the Governor will lio not to irrant it. The Governor has left you to choose any Govornmont you deem Ix'sl. 1 >o you think it would be better to have as permanent heads of departments two or three jrentlemen who are familiar with the wants of the Colony, or a moveable Ministry jioins; out on a (piestion of repairs to Cowichan Road, or something of tliat kind? These ai*e amongst the things that you have to consider, and if, after due consideration, the people desire Ilesponsible (iovernment. they will have it. I am here to state that His Excellency tlie Governor has no wish or desire to keep back Ilesponsible Government ; if he had any such desire, is it likely that he would have reconstituted his Executive Council so as to make it elective? I apprehend that people do not consider what they are talking about when they ask for Responsible Government ; they have not probably considered the failures that have been made in respect of Responsible Government. There have been some failures, as, for instance, in Jamaica and in Victoria. A class of people get into power inider Responsible Government whom no person would like to have as rulers. There are petty interests mixed up with politics in small connnunities. which prevent the system working so well in them as in large countries like Great Britain, where there is a healtliy tone and a vast population, and, consequently, great questions of national importance. I maintain that after Confederation the questions connected with local affairs will be so small, and so entirely connected with particular localities, that a staff of permanent heads of departments will be far better for the Colony than Responsible Government. I make this statement from conviction. I am perfectly free to take any course I like, notwithstanding I am an Executive Councillor. My position has not in any way curtailed my views. I could have advised Responsible Government if I had thought projjer. and would have done so if I had thought it desirable for this Colony. If anyone believes that the Organic Act does not allow Responsilile Government to be obtained at any time, let him move to make clause 19 specially applicable to this Colony. Hon. Dr. HEL]\ICKEN — It is in the terms already, only it is not specially named. Hon. Dr. CARRALL — Well, name it specially and put it in ; I will support it if anyone proposes it. We linow wliat His Excellency's intention is with regard to giving representation in the new Council, but we do not know the measure of it. If there is an overwhelming majority for Responsible GovonimtMit in all districts, electors will take care to send Responsible Government Members to the next Council. If the people are determined to have this " priceless boon," let them send men who will say they will have it. I feel impelled to administer a soft and gentle rebuke to the Hon. Member for New Westminster, who has, I must confess, won my esteem by his manly, straightforward sup])ort of these Resolutions; but I nuist take exception to his language ; it has been too emphatic — unintentionally, of course — because led away by the subject. He has used inflannnatory language which he had better not have uttered, language which was not exactly in accordance witli wliat I conceive to be correct. That clause in the Governor's speech which speaks of our not being fit to govern ourselves: Governor Musgrave has never said so; if he had, 1 slionld have taken it as a iK>rsonal insult. I say. as a P.ritlsh Colunil)ian, I am capable of governing myself; and if we can. individually, govern ourselves, it is fair to suppose that the Colony, as a whole, can govern itself. If you had the whole i>opu]ation comeatable altogether, so that they could be parallel like an army, and you could make them give expression to their views, and out of that get a Government, it might be practicable; but instead of that, here we are with a scattered population, isolated centres separated from each other. The majority are here for the sole purpose of making money, and they don't feel that anxiety that has been represented about Responsible Govern- ment; they want to be governed as cheaply as possible. If I am wrong, if it turns out at the i)olls that even a trifling majority are in favour of Responsilile (Jovei-nnieiit, they can have it. The iron heel of Canada is all nonsense. Governor Musgrave is the man we have to deal with, and I say that Responsible Government is a relief to any Governor, for it comes between him and the peoi)le. Governor Musgrave says that it is (I i)arai)hrase) "my duty, with my " exi)erience, to give fair and frank advice to the peojile; to tell them what I think is for their "good. If they determine differently to my advice, the fault is with them." Supposing that Governor Musgrave had put Responsible Government in as a condition, and had thrust it upon the i)eople, would not the respectable minority who are against it have said — or possibly, and COXFEDERATIOX DEBATE. 105 as I think, jn-obnbly. have said — His Excellency had acted unwisely? This question has been before the people; they would have been justified in junipinj; at the gilded bait of Responsible Government if the Government had not proposed a new system ; but as he has done so. the people will do well to consider before they swallowed the barbed hook that lies under the bait. I desire to disclaim speakins in the interest of officials; their position would, so far as I believe, not be injured in any way by the introduction of Itesponsible Government. Those among them who were commissioned in England (I mean the heads of departments) will be rendered so independent that they will be above fighting after their own interests. I thinlv it unlikely that they will remain hei'e. As to the balance of officials, if Canada is as liberal now as of old, or as liberal as Australia, they will be well provided for, whether we have Responsible Government or not. Probably they will be " utilized," since that is the term we are to use. I claim for the system which His Excellency has foreshadowed, that it is more suitable to the present circumstances of this Colony than any other system which can be given us. Responsible Government has acted well in large communities, but in small ones I doubt its efficiency. It is like a painted ship on a painted ocean. If it were obtained in a small Colony like this, there would be a constant game of battledore and shuttlecock going on — in to-day and out to-morrow. Fancy the Honourable Member for Victoria City presiding at the Lands and Works Department one day, and I, having paid him all the compliments I could, come over another day to have an interview with the Chief, and find that there has been a change of ^Ministry, there is another man in. My ideas may be wrong ; if so, they can be corrected at the polls. If I were a man of property, with a large stake in the Colony, I should decidedly object to Responsible Government. I have given my opinion candidly and honestly. I may never sit at this Council Board again. I have given my advice to His Excellency, to this Board, and to my constituents, conscientiously. If I am wrong, the people will correct me. I speak from conviction. No doubt there is talent in British Columbia ; no doubt there is plenty of administrative ability ; there are many better men than myself, I am very sure, and that is one reason that I oppose Responsible Government. [Laughter.] But the main difficulty is that the best men won't come here; the chaff is blown here, the wheat remains behind. On motion of Hon. ]Mr. Drake, the debate was adjourned to Monday. Monday, March 21 st, ]S70. Hon. :Mr. RING rose to assume the debate, and said: — Mr. ("hairnnui. I feel assurcnl that the House will accord me leaA'e to say a few words. There have been submitted for the consideration of this Hou.se two amendments, and in the observations of the movers, two points of argument have been adduced, — the first founded on supposed reasoning, and the second in the way of threats and military argnnient. grounded on the possibility of the Government refusing to insert this condition. I desire to disengage mj'self from this latter argument. When I hear anything tantamount to a threat from the people against the Executive. 1 desire to repudiate it. Hon. Members who put such a ]iicture of warfare before us talk bunkum. I address my humble petition to His Excellency, but if his judgment is against us I say to him, stand to your point and do not give way to threats; listen to no argmnents as to what may happen in the nature of threats; stand to your iK)ints. I say to Executive :\Ieml)ers, don't yield to threats; don't be moved by them. I sujjport the i)rinci])le of ResiHinsiblo (Jovernment, but I do so constitutionally. I say to Executive Members. I trust you will yield to reason and argument, but not to threats. I say we can ask for Responsible Government without the leave of the Organic Act; but I say let us rei)udiate all coiincclioii with (".inada until we have secured Responsible Government; let us not wait till we are surrounded liy Canadians. With regard to the railway, I say that in the life of the youngest aniouL'st us we slinll not get it; but wc must make this the main Resolution: without Resi)onsible (Jovcrinnent let us have no Confederation. Better bear the ills we have than lly to others that we know not of. Let us not run the risk of having to ask Canada for R('s])onsii)Ie (iovernment. M;ike it the emphatic sine qua nan that we must have Responsible Government or no Confederation. 106 COXI'EDEUATION DEBATE. Hon. Mr. HUMPHREYS— Out of deference to the amendment offered l)y the lion. Member for New Westminster (Mr. Robson), I ask the leave of the House to withdraw my motion, so that the amendment, the latter part of which I like better than my own, may stand. Hon. ATTORNEY-CiEXERAI-i — I regret very much that a discussion so inapposite^, .so totally unnecessary, should have been forced on by the other side of the House at a time so inopi)ortune. I am sjlad that the Hon. ]\Iember for Lillooet has withdrawn his motion; it leaves the Council to deal with the amendment of the Hon. Member for Xew Westmin.ster ; and I deeply regret that the Hon. gentleman did not accept the invitation to give up a special field day to the discussion of Resiionsible rimient Members upon the subject now before the House. I fully understand lliat it was imperative upon some Hon. Members to bring forward this question of responsibility at some period of the jiresent session, having advocated it liy s])eech and pen as the si)ecific remedy for the ills that the Colony was labouring under. Consistency demanded that the question should be brought up by tbem lor discussion; it was a logical necessity. Inexorable fate, I say, impelled certain Hon. Members to advocate Resjuinsilile (Jovernment. I had, however, hoped that the Hon. Members who advocated it would have reserved it for separate consideration, instead of bringing it up as an amendment to this clause now under consideration. flNIr. Robson — " \o, not an anuMidmenl." | \'ii-lnally it is an amendincnl. If this clause had prescribed that any future alteration in the constitution should have been dependent on Canada, then I could see the desirability of Hon. Members on the other side of tlu> House taking exception to it; but as it is I confess I am at a loss to conqirehend tbeii- position. Although, as I said inexorable fate compelled Hon. Members to bring the subj<>ct 108 CONFEDERATIOX DkBATE. forward, it is a mistake to hring it up in a Council constituted as this is. especially when the Governor has so distinctly expressed his views in opposition to the inauguration of Responsible Government at the present time. It would surely have been much more to the advantage of the cause they advocate for Hon. Memljers to have postponed the consideration of the (piestion for the more representative House shadowed forth in His Excellency's speecli. I say shadowed forth, for on retlection it nuist be plain to all Hon. Menibt'rs that His Excellency was not in a position to tell what the constitution of that House will be. He does not know. He has recommended certain changes for Imperial sanction: they may or may not be favourably con- sidered. His Excellency does, however, tell you that the representative element will be larger; and I think, therefore, that it would have been wiser on the part of the representative members who advocate Responsible Government to have left it to the next Council instead of bringing it forward while the present Resolutions are under discussion. The subject, if not positively irrelevant, is not connected with this Resolution, which simply provides, as a matter of form. l)ower to change the constitution, in accordance with the Organic Act. when the people desire it. In conunon with the Hon. Attorney-General, I am surju-ised that Hon. Meml)ers who cordially support Confederation should be afraid to trust the Dominitm Government upon this question. I am surprised at the inconsistency of those who tell you that the people could not get Responsible Government under Confederation, and that the wishes of the people would not be allowed to prevail. I am surprised particulai'ly at the Hon. Member for New Westminster expressing any doubt upon this subject. I, as an individual member of this community, would willingly leave the interests of the Colony to the guardianship of the Canadian Government. If I did not think that that Government would exercise whatever power it might have for the benefit of the people, instead of, as suggested by Hon. Members, for its own aggrandisement, I would have no Confederation. If under Confederation there would be no chance of Respon- sible Government, how can the Hon. INIember expect to get it from a Council constituted as this is? However, as the subject has been brought forward for discussion, it behooves us to consider it upon its merits. There were two propositions before the House. The Hon. Member for Liilooet has withdrawn his. which was in reality but a vague expression of an abstract opinion in favour of Responsible Government,' — a recommendation in general terms. We have now to confine our attention to the amendment of the Hon. Member for New Westminster ; the preamble of which states that Confederation will not be satisfactory to the people without Resi)onsil)le Government. The resolution itself, although embodying the same principle as the one which has been withdrawn, contemplates a practical step towards obtaining the object recommended, by addressing the Governor. The Hon. Member for New Westminster was careful to reserve his own opinion, but he was very positive that Confederation without Respon- sible Government would not be acceptable to the ])eople. Coming nt)w to the subject and matter of the speeches of the two Hon. Members. I find that the arguments of the Hon. Meml)er for Liilooet are simply invectives ; liis entire logic is abuse of the (Tovernment and the persons composing it. I have always understood that assertion is not fact, and that invective is not argument. It may be that my inability to appreciate the force of his remarks arises from my not possessing the qualification which he told us was essential to a proper understanding of the people and the people's affairs. It may he that I have not " eaten and drunk and slept with the i)eople." and cannot, therefore, rightly estimate the strength of demonstration which general and indiscriminate abuse of Government officials may convey to some minds. As to the Hon. Member's earnestness of belief in his case, his conscientiousness in the discharge of his duty to his constituents and to the Colony, had we ever any doubt of it, his i)ositive and repeated assurances of the honesty of his intentions in this matter, of his unfaltering deter- mination to do his duty to those he represents, must have forced conviction upon us. But, while giving him full credit for singleness of purpose, I must take leave to remark on his singular mode of reconnnending the subject to the favourable consideration of this Council, since his argument in its favour is to heap general accusation and vituperation on the Official Memliers of tliis Council, whom he invites to join with him by voting in favour of his views. — to confirm ills view of their utter baseness and worthlessness. I shall not ])]ace myself in opi)osi- tion to such a line of argument. But. Sir, the argument of the Hon. Member for New West- minster is of a very different character. I congratulate him, and I congratulate the House, on the manner in wliich the matter was treated by him. and especially as regards the officials. I acknowledge the courteous manner in which he touched on these points in his arguments which affected the members at this end of the table. It is inseparable from the discussion of this Confederation Debate. 109 question in this House that it must to some extent ]iartake of a personal character; it must ahnost mean a vote of want of confidence in Government officials. The smallness of the com- munity reduces It almost to a (juestion amongst individuals, and as the Government Memliers have heen placed, unnecessarily and inexpediently, as I think, to some extent upon their defence, I must speak plainly on some points, but in doing so I must deprecate any idea of giving offence. I say. then, that Responsible Government is not desirable, and is not applicable to this Colony at present; is practically unworkable. And here I would deprecate the impression which Is being so studiously instilled into the people of this Colony concerning what has been said of the unfitness of the Colony for Responsible Government. His Excellency the Governor has never said, nor has any member of the Government ever said, that the people are unfit, individually, to govern themselves. I say that, man for man. this community will compare favourably with any people on this coast. ["Hear, hear," from the Attorney-General.] Nor is it even the smallness of the population that I consider to be the great ob.iectiou, although I admit that this is a drawback ; but it is the scattered character of that population. It would be practically Impossible to organize electoral districts so that they should properly represent the interests of the separate parts, and of the whole Colony. As Victoria is the centre of wealth, and intelligence also, if you will, under present circumstances the Government would be centralized in the hands of Victorians, who would thus rule the Colony, and this would be objectionable [" Hear, hear," from Mr. Holbrookl ; and I say also that there would be a great difficulty in getting proper representatives to represent the respective districts. I do not agree with the Hon. Member who has stated that only the chaff of the people is blown into this House ; for I say, Sir, that this Council, constituted as it is, has proved that men fit to represent the people do come here. Responsible Government will come as a matter of course when the community Is fit for it ; hut that form of government is not fitted for communities in their Infancy. It has never been so considered. Look abroad into the world and you will find large populations without Responsible Government. There is no necessity to look far off to see whether the Anglo-Saxon race must necessarily have Responsible Government. Look across the Straits, where there is a population of, I suppose, 30,000 people, and there they have neither Responsible Government nor representa- tive institutions. Look at Oregon, also with no representation until the population exceeded 45,000. Look at the Red River Settlement, also with a population larger than ours; they do not apply for Responsible Government. It does not follow, according to the rule of Anglo-Saxon minds, that this form of government must prevail. I do not think the sort of responsibility which is advocated would be suitable to this Colony at present, or would promote its true interests. If I did think it desirable I should be found amongst its most cordial advocates, as this is a matter open for discussion without Government direction. But I think. Sir, that our present form of Government is practically a more real i-osi)onsibility to the people than that proposed by the Hon. Member for New Westminster; this form which the Hon. Member for Lillooet finds it so easy to animadvert upon. For we are in reality, if not directly, responsible to the people. We, as servants of the Crown, are directly and innnediately responsible to the Governor, and the Governor is responsible to the Queen, who is the guardian of the people's rights. This is no mere idea, for the fact of responsibility has been, over and over again, proved. If you have any good grounds of complaint you know where to lay them and get redress. This responsibility which we owe is more real, less fluctuating, less open to doubtful influences, and under it the rights of the whole country are secured and protected, and not those of the majority, to the prejudice of the minority, as under the so-called Responsible Government, which really means Party Government, ad\'Ocated so warmly by the Hon. INIember for New Westminster. Why, Sir. the Hon. Member has admitted to you that under that system the Government of the day miglit come down to pass measures by unfair means. Hon. Mr. ROBSON — No, I made use of no such words: what were my wends? Hon. CHIEF COMMISSrONER— The Hon. Member s.-iid. and I toc.k down his words, "that under Resiionsible Government the Government miglit come down to the House and carry measures by means not excessively fair." I say that this cannot occur under the present system; that no corrujiticm can be charged against this (Jovernment. I think the House is capable of being remodelled. I would rather see a larger element of representative govern- ment in this Council, with such a majority that the (Government would have no oi)i)ortunity of passing a measure objectionable to the people, as understood by their representatives; such a majority as I advocated in a resolution submitted to this Council. lUit the Hon. Members 110 Confederation Debate. for New Westiuinster. for Victoria District, and for Lillooet. tell yon that the people desire Kespoiisii)!e (ioverninent ; that they must have it. and will have it. I say. Sir. that if they do say so. which I very imuli douht. it is because the population have been educated up to it by those who have agitated the subject throufih the jiress and throujrh sjieeches. Some no doubt press for it from conviction, and some with a view to servintr their own ends ; but I believe, Sir. that what the people really want is such an administr:ition of the (Government as will tend i<) brini,' back prosperity to the Colony. You are told that the present olHcials have no sympatliy with the peojtle: that they are not of the people; that they move in a different sphere, and constitute a class by themselves. Is this true — or is it not rather the fact that persons who have ends to serve have put us in a class by ourselves? The Hon. Member says that the hands of the benefactors of the ]jeople must be callous with labour. Who. I ask, are those throujihout the world who have laboured most for the people by speech and pen? I say that the jlreat statesmen who have done most to advance the truest interests of the people, have not si»rung from the ranks of those whom the Hon. Member classes as the people. The Hon. Memlier for New Westminster says that the jjresent (Government (JIticials are well enough, able and honest, but that they cannot enjoy the confidence of the people because they are not their otticials: they are not elected by them. And, be as able as we might, and as honest, and work as we might, and do what we might for the people's good, we could not gain their con- fidence because we are not directly responsible to them. And the Hon. Member sympathized with us for the position. Now. Sir. if it lie true, as he says, that the Government have not the confidenc-e of the connnunity when, he says, they deserve it, whose is the fault? I say. Sir, it is the fault of those who. by voice and pen. have for years sedulously prejudiced the public mind of this community against that Government, not by pointing out favdts to be remedied, but by general and indiscriminate fault finding, descending to i)ersonal abuse, and even to the verge of scurrility. We have striven to do our duty. Hon. Members do not advance argu- ments, but content themselves with sajing that we are unpopular. I tell you why : If false impressions have gone abroad on this point let the responsibility of those impressions rest where it ought; for I say that it has been the business of certain persons to prejudice the public mind against Government officials. Let them settle the question of motives with their own consciences and with the people. If the officials in this House occupied the positions which would be held by officials under party government, I could understand the persistent course of the opposition offered by some members present ; but when I see the changed position, that there is no liesponsible (lovernment. and that our mouths are closed and our pens cannot be nsed in self-defence. I feel that we have been struck in a cowardly manner, and let the public defend the motives of those who have attacked ns. I invite all in this House, or out of it, to aid us to carry on the Government, and to act in a reasonable way in promoting the general interests of the Colony. Whether we are to have Responsible Government or not I don't know. I feel that it will come in good time, when the circumstances of the Colony are so changed as to admit of its adoption — I thiidc .sooner with (Confederation than without it. But whether we have it or not, I ask Hon. Members to assist us instead of endeavouring to complicate matters and retard the progress of the Colony. I ask them to give us some credit for good intentions. Now, Sir, one remairk in conclusion : the Hon. Meml)er for New Westminster, in his powerful oration, has not only allured us with the prospects of poinilarity under Responsible (Jovern- ment. but he has, I will not say threatened, warned \is of the result of our opiM)sing him in this matter. He tells us that unless Responsible Government be conceded the cause of Confed- eration will be ruined ; that the people would not have Confederation without Responsible (Joverument. This in fact is embodied in the preamble of his Resolution. Sir, I have cordially supported Confederation because I honestly believe that it will be for the benefit of the local interests of this connnunity as well as for the security and consolidation of Im[)erial interests; but I believe that this community is not ready for Responsible (jovernment. I will not. there- fore, do what I consider wrong that good may come ; I will not vote for Responsible Govern- ment for the sake of gaining Confederation. I, for one, say. if the people won't have Confedera- tion without Responsible (Jovernment; if they regard Responsible Government as the main object of Confederation ; if they do not api)reciate the real advantages of Confederation, let Confederation wait a while. The Governor has sent down Resolutions which he thinks can be carried out. and we hold that, whether under Confederation or not, this mattei' of Responsible Government will ultimately have to be settled by the vote of the people. When the proper Confederation Debate. HI time comes we shall, T say. as a matter of course, have Responsible (ioveriiment ; and that time will arrive sooner under Confederation than without it. I trust the Dominion Govern- ment ; I do not think they will ico aicainst the will of the people. I believe that in this, as in other matters, if they exercise inllueuce at all. it will be for the good of the country. A Government of liberal institutions cannot be expected to oppose the wishes of the people in proper and reasonaltle matters. Responsible Government ou.iiht not to be a condition of Con- federation : and I say that in these Resolutions it is very proijerly left to be settled in a new and more fully representative Council, which the (Governor has told us he is going to obtain Imperial sanction to establish. But if Confederation is to dei)end on this (piestion of Responsible Government, then l say let it be the test also of the reality of the sup])orters of Confederation. Hon. Mr. R0B80X — I expect the privilege of a general reply, but I desire to explain, now, that the Hon. Chief Commissioner has made an unfair use of what I said about "horny hands and patched garments." I disclaim having used it in that connection attributed to me; his remarks are luifair. Hon. Mr. WALKEM — I think on an important (juestion of this kind every member should give a reason for his vote. I have given the matter great consideration, and had intended entering somewhat fully into the discussion, but the Hon. Chief Commissioner has anticipated me. I have ))een utterly astonished as I listened to what fell from him. I entirely coincide with him in his argument and in bis views. Indeed. I can hardly help thinking that either he has copied my notes or I his. I must congratulate myself on coming to this conclusion. On the same ground I congratulate the House on the good temper, good taste, intelligence, and ability with which this question has been launched for discussion. The main speech — for the Hon. Member for Victoria District did not deign to express his views — has been that of the Hon. Meml)er for New Westminster. As I listened to that speech, Sir. one of the be.st ever uttered in this House. I almost felt that for five long years I had been wrong. — he almost made a convert of me ; but ui)on looking a little more closely into it I find thait it is based upon false premises ; his arguments are fallacious, and his conclusions wrong. The Hon. Member says that Responsible Government is a principle which may be applied either to the Great Eastern, or to a dairy churn, or to a lady's watch ; that it is a principle capable of being carried out by three or three hundred. This is utterly incorrect ; it is not a principle, but a form, one element of which is responsibility to the people. It is a form adopted by the people, but it does not follow, as a matter of induction, that it can be used or carried out in every place or by every community. In 1S37 the rebellion in Canada, for the puri)ose of acquiring Responsible Government, took place. The rebellion was raised and the question agitated simply for changing tbe form of Government. What was the population? It was in the neighbourhood of 2.000.000 in 1S37. and of 2,.500,000 in 1861. Look at the difference of the population of this Colony ; after deducting the aliens and females, there is scarcely a voting population through the whole Colony of 3,000. Have the whole country mapped out and show me how nnich further the Governor can go in usefully extending the representation. We have nine members, and out of these nine, under Responsil)le Government, we should have to elect a Colonial Secretary, an Attorney-General, a Chief Commissioner of Lands and Works, and probably two other Cabinet Ministers; altogether five in oftice. and four struggling for power. Make the whole number eighteen and you then have a constant struggle for power; a struggle such as we have not bad in this Colony Ix'fore. and sueli as 1 hope we shall not see. There are virtually two ends of the Colony which represent all the wealth and ])roperty of the counnunity — Victoria and Cariboo. Carilioo would be contending for the rcju'.-il of road tolls, and Vietoi'ia would be contending that they oiight to be ]»aid. It may be said that these general (luestions of taxation will be left to the Dominion (Jovernment. Iml there are many other subjects which will create differences between the two ends of the Colony. The Hon. Member for New Westminster s;iys if we go in without Responsible (Jovernment we shall go in with agitation. Does any one believe fliat if we had Responsible (Jovernment to-niorrow, politicians will have no subject on which lo agitate. Political agitation will never cease. Let us go further. As the Honourable Chief Connnissiouer says, we have the United States advo- cating Responsible (Jovernment. and that form of it which is .said to be the best in theory, a form in reality democratic; but the people :wr not educatetl to the extent of the principle itself. Americans are averse not only to granting small but large territories the freetlom which we now ask. They say : " You shall be a Territory until you are properly educated." 112 Confederation Debate. For instance, there is Washington Territory, with a population of 27.0()ft. sends a Delegate ta Congress, who has no vote. Dakota, another Territory, has been refused admission as a State until it has a population larger than it now possesses. I am just reminded about Alaska, which is not even a Territory yet. General Thomas reported against giving it any other than a military form of Government. How can we. then, expect Responsible Government with our population? I know that there are Honourable Members wavering; their interests tell them to vote one way. their conscience points to another. I say. vote according to your conscience. I say that a village can never have Responsible Government. I maintain that it would prove a curse, through the agitation that would follow, instead of a blessing. I coincide with the Honourable Member for New Westminster as to what he says as to callous hands. I believe there are men with tattered garments in the upper country quite capable of giving a sensible vote upon all questions likely to come before a Council in this Colony : but we find that they have too nuich to do ; they have no time for politics : they have to earn their own bread. I believe that the Honourable Member for Cariboo has uttered the true sentiments of the great majority of the district. I do not believe that Cariboo is favourable to Responsible Govern- ment. Those gentlemen with the patched garments and callous hands have the same oppor- tunity that the Member for New Westminster has had of coming into the House. He has told us with pride of his hard work as a pioneer on the Fraser River ; and to-day we hear him advocating, with most eloquent language, his views upon this great question. His voice has had much to do with shaping the councils of this House, and, I ask, are these doors shut to any man in the Colony of equal talent with the Honourable gentleman, who can be found willing to devote their time to the service of their country? I do not feel in the servile position of being obliged to vote one way or the other. I am as free to vote as the Honourable Member himself. I shall give my vote to the best of my ability. I believe that no compul- sion has been brought to bear upon any ^Member of this House, ofticial or otherwise. The latter part of the speech of the Honourable gentleman (Mr. Robsou) is hardly worthy of the former. It contains language which I am very sorry he has used ; language which makes me believe that it is not from conviction, but that it is intended to go forth to the world to stir \ip the people; excellent sitump oratory, if, without intending the slightest disrespect, I may use the term. I believe it is not the wish of the property owners of Victoria to have Respon- sible Government. Do you suppose, Sir, that property owners are going, willingly, to entrust their interests to persons of whom they know nothing? I do not dread professional politicians; I believe they are as useful as any other profes.sional men in their way ; but I say, as a fact, there are no politicians here with the exception of those who have devoted their time to politics. Why, I ask, is there .so great an antipathy to leaving this question for the people to decide at the polls? '' (iive us," says the other side, "an opportunity of educating ourselves, so that our mistakes, when made, may be remedietl." I say that there is no better education than this Council, in which Hon. Members have education before they come to Responsible Government; for under the scheme foreshadowed by the Governor, the position will be very little inferior to Responsible Government. Depend upon it, if the Canadian Government think we can manage Responsible Government they will give it to us — they will be glad to get rid of the question. I say, however, this question is being agitated at an inopportune time. T, for one, would not consent to trust my interests to any such change. 1 do not believe in the present form of Government, but if the form foreshadowed by the Governor be carried out, it will'give the people a system veiT little inferior, as I have said, to Responsible Government, and infinitely more workable. I trust that Hon. Members will give due weight to the remarks of other speakers who have preceded me upon the question, and will well consider their votes. Hon. Mn. DRAKE — Mr. Chairman, I have a strong objection to this clause being inserted ; it never ought to have been in the terms. It presumes that this Colony is willing to go into Confederation with the form of Government that we have at present. It seems to have been put in as a sop to Canada ; it ought to have been left out. I cannot see why it is inserted, or what advantage it can possibly be to us. If we go into Confederation l)ound hand and foot with the same form of Government as now, we shall have no power to change the form. We .shall then have Canada as a Queen Regnant. We shall then have an Executive who will, if so directed, vote against Responsible Government. This Colony would be a preserve for Canadian statesmen and Canadian patronage: we shall be no more advanced then than now. Without going into argumeni I may lie pardoned. I trust, if I quote three pro])ositions of John Confederation Debate. 113 Stuart Mill on Responsible Govoniniont : First, " Do the people require it ; or are they unwilling to accept it?" We are told that this lias not l)een made a question; I deny this statement. It has been made a question, more or less, in Victoria at every election. Every election depends more or less on this point. Second, " Are the people willing to take the burdens which are imposed on them by such a form?" I say that we liave the answer to this proposition in the fact of there being j)eoj)le willing to come here where they are jiraetically useless. Do not persons come forward to represent the peoi)le? A very large majority of the people take part in every election. Third. " Are the people willing and able to do that whicti will enable the Government to perform its functions properly?" This, I contend, is the condition of the Colony. The main argument of the Chief 4Z!ommissioner in his very able speech, a broad argu- ment and very well put, is that the population is scattered. I say this argument cannot be used with effect. We are told that the Government would fall into the hands of Victoria as the centre of population and wealth ; no great harm if it did. \'ictoria is dependent upon all parts of the Colony, and they on her ; their interests are identical. Another objection that has been raised is, that we cannot get men of proi)er intelligence and qualitications for positions of honour and trust. Looking round this Council Board we see men who have come out to this Colony to make their own fortunes and homes. Out of them the present members of the Government have been chosen, and out of our present poiiulation there can be found an equal number of men who can properly fulfil the duties of the Government. I cannot see that it is impossible to find jjroper men. If we find men willing to sit in this Council now. we shall find plenty ready and anxious to share in the burdens of Responsible Government. The suffi- ciency or insufficiency of population is not an element in this question. The United States has been pointed out to us as an example. I say there is no Responsible Government in the United States; it is an absolute despotic democracy, absolutely irresponsible to the people, except once in four years. There is no such thing as responsibility in the form of government of the United States. The only means of getting rid of a minister is by impeachment. The Hon. Member for Cariboo, in his rambling speech, gives us no new argument against Responsible Government. He certainly reiterated much that was forcibly put forward by the Hon. Chief Commissioner. I can well believe that the wheat was left at Cariboo, and the chaff came here. Hon. Mk. HUMI'HREYS — Sir, 1 have listened to the speeches of the Hon. Chief Conunis- sioner of Lands and Works and to the Hon. Government nominee, and I find them difficult to answer, because there is so little in them. The only way would be to have them printed and read them. They carry their answers with them. One Hon. Member says that it rests on numbers. I say that intelligence is the only qualification for Responsible Government; numbers have nothing to do with it. If I err I am proud of erring with some of the greatest men that England ever jn'oduced. The Hon. Chief Commissioner has admitted that the popu- lation, taken man for man, is ecpial to that of any country. Then, I say, we have the pi'oper qualification. Let us have practical, and not theoretical, means of governing. What is really the case? Under the present form of Government the people have to ])ay for the privilege and benefit of a few gentlemen sitting round this board. Take away this form of government and make it more liberal, and what is the danger? All the civil wars and troubles have not arisen from the uneducated, but from the ambition of the so-called educated classes. The people have been the conservatives who came forward to keep the country going. Take away the so-called intelligent and educated classes and it will lie no great loss; the labouring classes can always supply men to fill their places. But take awa.v the working classes and you kill the world; the educated classes cannot fill their places. In my opinion. Sir, the people want practical reality. They have endured too long the law's delay and the insolence of those in office. Why should we come here, year after year, to ask for a change in the form of government? I think that Responsible Government should be a sine qiai hdii of ConfederMtion. I shall move an amend- ment to that effect. Hon. Dr. HELMCKEX — (Jre.-it heavens! wlnit terrible things are said and done in the name of the peoi)le. To hear Hon. JNIemliers talk one would tliink that they were the people. But the people are (piiet while Hon. Meniliers are very loml. I intend to support the Govern- ment. I do not mean to .say nuich for or against. I take the position that the people can have Res])onsible Government when they want it; and their representatives ought to be satisfied to take it when the i)eoi)le really and seriously ask for it. Responsible Government has Iteen one of the watchwords of a certain set of politician.s who waiited to bring on Confederation. S 114 CONFEDEUATIOX DEBATE. Government of. from, for. and by the jieople. without regsird to the material interests of the Colony. This means government by politicians. These gentlemen will sacrifice every benefit to the Colony for Responsible Government. Confederation to me means terms ; to them it means pickings, office, place, and power. This will be represented. I am well aware, as being the result of being in the Executive Council. It is said that there is a great difference between the atmosiihere of the two Councils. I acknowledge it. There, with closed doors, people speak the ti'uth. without any ad cuittandum arguments addressed to the galleries. There people can state what their»opinions really are. Here popularity has to be sought. We are told that the people will fight for Responsible Government. That is mere nothing — woi'ds only. The lion. Member for New "Westminster in his able speech er&cted a very handsome structure, but, like most fancy structures, it will be a very expensive one. He wants a Government like Ontario; that is a Government of one House, with eighty members. For a Government of that kind not less than forty or fifty would be absolutely necessary. Plon. Mk. ROBSON — I never said like that of Ontario, but that we wanted the principle of Responsible Government as existing in Ontario. Hon. Mit. HELMCKKX— Then why not bring in a scheme embodying it? The true prin- ciples of Responsible Government can only exist satisfactorily with foily or fifty members in the House. It would cost very little short of .$20,000 per annum. That, out of the very small amount we are to get from Canada, would reduce the amount likely to be available for public works to a fraction. You must have a large numljer to work Responsible Government, or, more properly speaking, party government. If we are to have it. I would not have the heads of departments responsible to the people; at least not the working heads. If any head of a department is to be responsible to the people, let it be the political head; but T would make the working heads permanent. I have found, from my experience of the old Vancouver House of Assembly, that policy frequently changes and turns round. The same thing would happen under Responsible Government. If I wished to oppose Confederation, I believe that I could not do a better thing towards effecting my object than to vote for Responsible Government; but I want to see the more material wants advanced by Confederation. I know that material interests were not the pivot, but that is was place, patronage, and office that was wanted. With regard to the present system of Gorernment, it is very easy to say that it is bad, but I have listened to all the speeches and have not heard one word of practical fault-finding with the present Government — merely the assumi)tion that the people desire change. This desire for change they have been educated to. I acknowledge many faults in the past, but we have now a new Executive, and we are promised a change in the form of Government; but this is apart from Confederation altogether. It appears to me that the first thing we have to arrange is the money question ; to get our material interests first settled ; to make sure that this Colony should be pecuniarily l)etter off: to make the question of Confederation now turn upon material interest, and not allow our material interests to be jeopardized by a cry for Respon- sible Government ; not to allow Responsible Government to be the sauce to make the public swallow bad and unprofital)le terms. X\\ Members have acknowledged that " money " is the basis of all Governments; let us get that money. I would not have the public vote for Responsible Government and forget or put in the background the money. Place the question upon material terms and the Colony will demand profitable terms ; but mix it up with Respon- sible Government and you get a divided opinion upon it, and those who think Responsible Government everything will vote for that to the exclusion of any terms, or, at all events, with unprofitable terms. There are, doul)tless, many who IiO])e to live upon Responsible Gov- ernment; but, Sir, Responsible Government is not food and raiment. The people can live without Responsible Government, but they c.uniot live upon it. Give them food and raiment first; the rest will follow in natural succession. These few words will give you my reasons for consenting to the arrangement proposed in the conditions. More than tliis. I am not pledged to Responsible Government, but I am plcdgiMl to representative institutions. The latter have been granted; my mission thus far is fulfilled. I have always asserted that we must take our steps to Responsible Government gradually. Having representative institutions, we can go on to the other. No one ever stated that the people were unfit to govern themselves; all acknowledge that they have talent enough. But this I do assert, that thus far the people have shown an unwillingness to govern themselves — have taken but little interest in the matter. It is not that they are unfit, but unwilling. They prefer looking after their own business; it pays them Confederation Debate. 115 better. I need not refer to the rliflieulty of gpttin.u nienihers; and doul»tl('Ss some of us sit here from that cause; and It is no doubt true, as has been said, that better could have been foiuid ouside. If you have Responsible Government it will fall into the hands of those who wish to make a living by it. No one has said that it would be economical — it would not be so. It would reiiuire at least thirty members to carry on jiarty Government for six weeks at least every year, or $150 per diem for thirty-six days, which would amount to $5,400; and then the mileage would come to as much more — say, altogether. $10,000. Add to these the salaries of the political heads, say five at $2,000 per annum, and then you have the nice little sum of $20,000 a year. Then, I suppose, eacb Minister would require a pension when he went out. The real Executive officers would remain then as now, and would have to be paid nearly as much as at present. The truth is, there would be a. great difficulty in getting members, and without a large body of members it could not be carried on. You would find that the best men would avoid i)olitics. and soon there would be very great corruption. There is a great deal of talk about voting away the peoiile's money, but it must be borne in mind that a part of that mofley, under Confederation, will come from Canada, and she will have a right to see it properly expended. There is also a great deal of talk about Hon. Official Members voting their own salaries, but would not the same thing be done under Responsible Government? Have not Hon. Representative ilembers voted themselves salaries this present session? Hon. Members say that if Responsible Goveriiment is not granted we will agitate. I thought that everybody was so much in favour of it that the people would rise if it were not included in the terms ; that there would be employment for every gunsmith in Victoria ; and yet we are told " we will agitate." Hon. Mr. ROBSOX — I never said that; I said that the people would agitate. Hon. Dr. HELMCKEX — It is much the same thing; the agitators will "beat the bush" once more, and they will perhai)S be driving the birds for other people once again. If the people really desire Responsible Government, why is there any necessity for all this agitation? I admit that many of the people of Victoria desire it. and think that it can be carried out. Ask the scattered districts in the country, and they will tell you that they do not know or care about it. Political opinion does not run high in the Colony. I intend to support the (iovei'nment upon this clause, but I leave myself perfectly free to vote for Responsible (Government if I think proper. I want to secure the material interests of the Colony. I^et the people say whether those material interests will be benefited by Confederation, but not mix up the question of Responsible Government with it. I am perfectly willing to abide by the decision of the people on Res])onsible Government, and on Confederation on Terms, separately. My sole desire is to see this country materially benefited. If the people want responsil)ility I will not say nay, but we must have good terms. At the polls Responsible Government might carry Confederation with very indifferent terms. I am perfectly certain that the (Government have acted wisely in not allowing the terms to be clogged with Responsible Government. I say. don't let Responsible Government take the place of material benefits. Hon. Dr. CARRALL — Sir, I rise to take exception to what the honourable and learned Member for Victoria City said about being bound hand and foot to Canada. In -my remarks he can find no efforts to catch votes, and no clap-trai) addressed to the galleries, but I advocate what may be uni)opular from conviction. Hon. Mr. BARNARD — Sir, I agree with the Hon. Chief Connnissiduer that it is a pity tliat this question has been brought up now, for I had made up my mind to vote for Responsible (iovernment in its entirety ; but the Hon. INIember for New Westminster put the question to the Hon. Attorney-Genei'al. who said it must go on. Hon. ATTORNEY-GENERAIj— I said that as the Hon. IMember for New Westminster and others insisted ujiou opening the discussion, it must go on. Hon. Mr. ROBSON — I felt regret that it should be brought up now, but wliru I .isked if we could put it off, the Hon. Attornej'-(ieneral said it was too late. Hon. ATT0RNEY-(;1':NKRAL— I offered the Hon. Members for New Westminster and Lillooet every opportunity for discussing the important question upon a day to be set apart for the ])urpose, Hon. Mu. IH'MPIIREYS — What I did was in conseipience of what the lion. Attorney- (Jeneral said at the commencement of the debate. He invited recommendations, otherwise I should not have put my notice on the board. 116 Confederation Debate. Hon. Mk. BAKXARI) — It was fully inipressod on my mind that this qnestion should not be mixed ui) with the terms. I am astonished at the charj^e against Itepresentative Members of trying to foi'ce this question upon the House at an inopportune time. I will leave it to the Government to say whether it shall be left for another day or go on. Hon. ATTORNEY-GENERAL — I say. again, now the debate has begun, now the gauntlet is down, the del)ate must go on. Hon. Mr. RORSON — Sir, this course is most unfair on the part ver much it may be established that the i)ower of self-taxation resides and has always resided in the represent- atives of the country, in the Commons of England, carrying with it tlie overwhelming power of the purse — it is, I believe, clearly ;i(liiiitt(>(l that the iniiiciple of Responsible (Jovernment, as now understood, has existed for little more than 1(i() years, — sa.v from the accession of George III. and the termination of Lord lUite's administration. — so that I admit the Hon. gentleman's proposition only so far as this. Re])resentative institutions are the birthright of the British nations — representative institutions and the privilege of taxing ourselves. Now, Sir, I believe the whole scope of representative institutions to be greatly misrepresented. It 118 Confederation Debate. is the fashion for Honourable Mombors to say that the Governuient of this or any other com- munity are bounU to govern according to the well understood wishes of the people ; that the vox popiiU is the vox del; that Ministries and Governments are responsible to the people. But the true principle, as we all very well know, is that Governments and Ministries are responsible, not to the people as a populace, but to tlie representatiA-es of the people, properly and reasonably chosen. Governments and Ministries are responsible, not to numerical majorities, but to the country. Now, Sir, representative institutions are liable to this obvious and well-known danger. I will quote the words of a well-known political writer. Herbert Spencer : " When- ever the profit accruing to the representative individually, from the passage of a mischievous measure, largely exceeds his loss as a unit in the conununity from the operation of the injurious law, his interest becomes antagonistic to that of his constituents, and sooner or later will sway his vote." How true and how obvious this is. I might go further, when the private and personal, the direct and innnediate, interest of the representative or of the constituents, whose advocates and delegates they are, is opposed to any matter of legislative action, the direct and material interest will, of a certainty, prevail over the distant and more remote welfare of the community, in all but very rai'e instances. This is the danger that threatens all representative institutions, and the only safeguard against it is the qualification — the pecuniary and material qualification of the representative, the pecuniary and material qualification of the elector; and. accordingly, we see representative institutions flourishing and successful only when this safeguard practically exists. Let us turn to the example of England. In England representative institutions and Responsible Government work smoothly — and why? Because of the notoriously aristocratic and plutocratic character of the Legislature of Great Britain. Political life is a sealed book to any but the wealthy classes. Every member of Parliament is a man of property; no other can afford the luxury of legislative life; and society is secure in the hands of representatives whose property would suffer from the results of vicious or reckless legislation. I say nothing of the question of peace and war. probably the most momentous and disastrous subject of vicious and reckless legislation, a question which will not arise in the Colony. The cream of all legislation is taxation, and my solid conviction is that representative institutions and Responsible Government will fail whenever the working majority is in the hands of an unsulistantial class of representatives or of electors. I have thus. Sir, treated of representative institutions and Responsible Government somewhat in the abstract. I will now refer more particularly to its application to this Colony, and this apart from any question of Confederation ; and I will repeat that I am in favour of the exten- sion to the utmost possible limits of the representative elements of this Council, but adverse to Responsible Government. With respect to the constitution of the Legislative Council of British Columbia, it might, I think, hardly be necessary, in the present condition of the Colony, to advocate a second chamber — a Council as distinct from an Assembly. However advisable this may be in an advanced condition of the Colony, advanced in numbers and wealth, few, if any, would advocate such an institution as a second chamber. The elements for forming such a chamber are sadly wanting in the present state of affairs, and the matter may be dismissed without further comment — without discussing the advisability in a general way of such an institution at all, or the constitutional elements of such a body. But with regard to the Legi.slature on the supposition of its consisting of one single House, it will be necessary to speak at somewhat greater length. Of what elements ought such a legislative body to consist? At present it consists of oflicial members, heads of departments ♦ official members not heads of departments, but representing, for the most part, different magisterial districts; a few nominated members — nominated, I think it is reasonable to presume, from an impression of their being tolerably intelligent and moderate; and a few representative mem- bers. It is asked whether the constitution of this Council should be altered so as to establish direct Responsible Government, or what may be looked upon almost as its equivalent, a large working majority of responsible members. I leave out of the question at present all reference to any modification of the constitution of the Council in the event of Confederation, and I consider the matter at present only in reference to the Council and the Colony in their actual condition. At present it is obvious, and must be felt by all of us, by official members no less than by independent membei-s, that our position as a Crown Colony is what is commonly called a /rt?.sc iwsition. We are individually as well fitted for self-government as our brothers or our cousins in the Old Country or in Canada. I will go further: I will say that the community, taken individually, in this Colony is better qualified to demand and have repre- Confederation Deijate. 119 seutative institutions. I say taken indiviiluaUn — and I mean it in its strict sense. Man for man, I believe tlie Colonist a better politician tlian liis English cousin. The aristocratic class hardly exists, it is true. It is an injustice to presume for a moment that the Colonist in this, or any other Colony of Anglo-Saxon origin, is in any way unfit for the enjoyment of the freest political liberty. Higher class we have none, but the middle and lower classes are — I do not hesitate to say it — superior to the middle and loAver classes at home. The Colonist is more enterprising and more pushing than the stay-at-home Englishman. He has better knowledge of the world and of human nature; he graduates in a school in which politics are prominent, and he is free from an immense amount of ignorance and prejudice which is thought and written and acted in the Old World. But then comes the consideration, what elements are indispensable in the community to form the representative body, if, as is contended, that element is to be .supreme; or, what is the same thing in point of actual power, when that element constitutes the working majority? I will answer: (1) Localized and permanent population. (2) Established diversified interests; wealth, whether capital or regular income, the well-doing of professions, businesses and industries, agriculture, substantial industries, staples. Population herein we are deficient — CfiOO adult white men — sporadic, scattered, and temporary. How many care to vote? How many are aliens? Established interests here also are deficient ; isolation our drawback : staples we have, Imt they are vuideveloped or unlucky ; gold mining depressed; agriculture under a disadvantage, and no good market; coal not much sought after, and minerals a speculation; lumber unfortunate; fisheries unestablished, and commerce in the way of export killed by the abolition of the free port, or inferior from the absence of a large home demand. These are all our material elements of wealth, and we have them in no great abundance. Now. without them, what have we? A sparse community, in which the only thriving interest is agriculture, and that only because supply is not equal to demand: or, in other words, .small in numbers and importance, and no wealthy class at all. Can self-government be trusted to such a ixtpulation? I say emphatically no! Now, I am not greatly in favour of a high qualificatiou for representatives — for Members of the Council. It is sufficient for me that they represent substantial interests ; but when we have unsubstan- tial representatives representing unsubstantial and small constituencies, I can hardly under- stand anything more dangerous, and, I might add, more ridiculous or more extravagant. That representatives should be substantial people is desirable, but that they should represent sub- stantial Interests is indispensable. If representatives are unfaithful to their trust the remedy is possible ; but where the class of electors is needy and unsubstantial, it seems impossible to conceive anything more disastrous. Taxation, as before has been observed, is the cream of legislation; and taxation at the hands of unsubstantial men, or men forced to advocate the interests of unsubstantial constituencies. Avill be noithing but tyranny. Opinions may be divided in many other matters; the votes of a party may be split on many points; but in the hands of the masses the substantial class will be heavily and unmeasurably taxed to suit the views of those who have nothing to lo.se and all to gain liy any contemplated movement. Take the example of Vancouver Island in old days as an example of a small and a narrow conununity ; again, the example of Victoria, in Australia, where legislation is effected by the enormous majority of the advocates of the interests of constituents elected on a low qualification. — manhood suffrage. I cannot but understand that if the Government is in the hands of the representatives of the people, aiid a working majority of them, supreme representative Govern- ment, if not equivalent to, is, in effect, equal to Responsible Government. In the hands of the representatives of the people, supplies would all be voted, except conditions were exacted, favourable to the popular will. And, Sir, having treated on representative and Responsible Governments as api)lied to this Colony, let us see its bearing on the subject of Confederation; and here I follow in the footsteps of the Hon. Member for New Westminster ; his reasoning is mine, but not his conclusions. Without Responsible Government, or its equivalent, or its approximate (Jovernment by a representative majority, we have no safeguard against a Govern- ment of Canadian olHcials. British Columbia will be a Colony of Canada, a dependency of a dependency, and (.^anadian interests will prevail. Dependence on England is bearable ; they have no interests ai)art from ours; but dependence on Canada would be unbearable: their interests are different from ours. Tb.it Is the conclusion that is inevitable; it is but a logical conclusion. Confederation without Responsible Government, or Government by a working majority of representative members, is out of the question. Such a Government cannot be 120 Confederation Debate. had; therefore Confederation is out of the question. I have thus. Sir. given my opinion on a point wliich i>< sure to meet with popular disfavour, but I am proud to support the Executive when I think it is right : and T would share the responsibility of a measure which would make that Executive obnoxious to blame. I have no chronic feeling of opposition to Government. I have no objection to Individuals, nor do I impute to them sordid motives, but in the matter of Confederation the Executive of this Colony are in a false position ; they act primarily, not for the good of the Colony, but fur the good, or supposed good, of Ureat Britain; and they exercise the power of Government in a matter in which the interests of the Colony are mainly at stake to carry out. and effect an organic change of great importance to local interests. It is somewhat unfair to me to say 1 impute motives to the Executive. I only quarrel with them when they place themselves in a false position, as in the question of education ; and in this, as in education. I say they oppose their own views to the views of; the well understood wishes of all classes of the community; and here the carry through a scheme of Confederation ; they start the stone, and it ,is hard to see how or where it will roll. I sincerely feel for their position. The Colony will demand representative institutions, and they will l)e forced to yield them or back out of the position they have undertaken. The answer of the Executive (Government to this is as given by the Hon. Attorney-General. The Attorney- General says that after Confederation we are bound to have what we require — Responsible Government. This is taking the matter for granted. It may be attained, but with a struggle. It is impossible to doubt that the Executive of the new Province will oppose representative Government or any diminution of their own rights or their own ])ower. He says it is inoppor- tune and beside the question. The Hon. Member for Cariboo (Dr. Carrall) says: "If the people of British Columbia want Responsible Government no power on earth can prevent their having it." This is but a promise for the future. The Hon. Chief Commissioner says the comnumity is not fit for Responsible Government, but the matter is to be left to the new Council. Resjjonsible Government will assuredly come with Confederation. The Hon. Member for Victoria (Dr. Ilelmcken) says: "This is the argument of the Government. But something nmst counterl)alance Canada, otherwise with a working majority in the House the Dominion Government will keep things as they are when we are a Province of Canada." Tuesday. March 22nd, 3S70. Hon. Mr. HOLBROOK — Mr. Chairman. 1 rise with some diffidence to give my opinion as to whether we are fitted for Responsible Government or not, after the al)le speeches that have been delivered by Hon. Members on the subject. The Hon. and learned Member for Victona City (Mr. Drake) has affirmed that Responsible Government would give the real government of the Colony to Victoria. This I believe is true, and if such were the case what injury it would inflict on Xew Westminster and the Mainland generally. I feel that we are not yet fit for Responsil)le Government; but nevertheless. I think that the extent of the jiopu- lation is very nmch mider-estimated. It has been stated that after the most careful calculation that can be made the white i)opulation cannot be calculated at over .j.OOO adults: Vint I think this is wrong, and no doubt it has been taken from the Government Accounts, which do not include Kootenay. Big Bend, or the settlements around Xew Westminster; and I would make the adult white population to be ICOOU, besides 40,0U0 Indians; and these Indians ought not to be ignored. If they are not represented will it not be difficult to make them contented with the change from the Imperial Government to Canada? And it is for this reason that I have gi'-en a notice of motion in this IIou.se to show them that they are not forgotten, and that they may go on with their settlements and improvements in safety. But if we are to have Resjjon- sible (iovernment I will not be answerable for the consequences. We are told the question is to be submitted to the people. I say let us wait for their decision. I have confidence in Canada, and am content to take my chance of being well governed by the Dominion (Govern- ment, rather than try something of the working of which we know nothing. I have no doubt that great agitation on the subject of Responsible Government will be got up by the press, and that many members will gain their elections by confusing the questions of Confederation and Confederation Debate. 121 Responsible Government. I entirely concur with the Hon. Mr. "Wood in believinji that more liberal representation will do nuich more for the good of the Colony than Responsible Govern- ment. I believe in a good franchise being given, as foreshadowed by the Governor's Speech; and I think twelve elected and eight nominated memlters would give satisfaction and work well, although report makes the change more liberal than this. We are now on the eve of prosi)erity. Our quartz mining is still to be commenced, and we only want good roads to Kootenay, by way of Eagle Pass, to open our resources in this respect. I do not intend to enter upon the question of Responsible Government. I believe it would be bad for us and is not required by the people. I shall support the Government in the clause no\\» under discussion. Hon. Mr. DeCOSMOS — Mr. Chairman, I bad not expected to .say anything more on this subject ; but, on more mature reflection. I am satisfied that it is my duty to do so. The more the matter is argued, and the more the remarks of Government members are heard, the more I believe we are being asked to take a leap In the dark ; for all I can learn is that the new Hou.se is to be partly nominative and partly elective — and not responsible. The proportions are not stated. It has also cropped out that there will l)e a qualification for members, and also for electors. If the Government refer this matter to the people to know whether such a Constitution will suit them, I believe the people, to almost a unit, will reject it. The mass are opposed to Confederation altogether unless they can get a more liberal representation than that proposed by the Government. At the outset I proposed a Committee of all parties to consider and report upon the whole matter; but the hasty judgment of the House, as I think, deferred the question. Now. Sir, I think if the Committee had met and suggested, for the protection of the property element, that one-third of the ^Members of the Council should be elected for a longer period and hold property qualifications, the country would have been satisfied. I can conceive on some such proposition as that being laid before the House, it would have been eminently successful ; as it now stands it is matter of opinion. I think the Governor has been led into error if the utterances that occasionally drop from members of this House mean anything. I cannot conceive that the people will accept such a Constitution. I should prefer that we should go into Confederation as a unit. T have made these few remarks to set my mind at rest, and to save myself troulile with my constituents if I should offer myself as a candidate again. I state that I believe the Government will jeopardise Confederation on this point. Hon. Mr. DEWDXEY — Sir. the (piestion now under consideration has been so fully gone into 'by Hon. Members of the Council, that I feel it will be useless for me to take up the time of this House to any great length. At the conmiencement of this debate I had several argu- ments which I proposed to bring before your notice against Responsible Goveniment, but I find that these have been ably handled by other Hon. gentlemen far more ably than I could have hoped to do; and should I not have been convinced at the earlier stages of this debate, other arguments have been adduced which now completely set my mind at rest on the subject. I am opposed to the recommendations of both the Hon. Memhers for New Westminster and Lillooet, particularly the latter, and in opposing them I do not feel I am injuring the cause of Confederation. But while I feel, Mr. Chairman, that it is unnecessary for me to enter into the question of Responsible Government. I think I should not be doing ray duty were I to remain silent u])on one matter connected with this debate — one upon which I consider I am as capable of giving an opinion as any Hon. Member of this Council — namely, the feelings of the inhabitants of the Mainland generally with regard to Responsible (iovernment. I have travelled through this country as much as any Hon. Member of this Council, and I have been brought in contact with all classes, and have mixed with all classes, and I have yet to meet the first individual who has expres.sed to nie his desire for Responsible Government. Now. Mr. Chnlrnian, do you believe, does this Council believe, that the cry throughout this Colony is — down with the i)resent form of (ioveniment. let us have Responsible Government?, Hon. Members of this House are awarr, ! i)resume. thai my .-ivocations for some years i)ast. in fact as long as I have been in the Colony, have necl^ssarily brought me in contact with all classes, and should this have been the cry, do you think I should not have heard it? T say distinctly again. I have yet to meet the first individual who has expressed to me his desire for Respon- sible Government. The feeling of my constituents is not in favour of Resjionsiltle (Joveniment; on the contrary, it was distinctly expressed to nic that they do not desire any change in the present form of Government. All they want is money to keep their trails in order and a 122 Confederation Debate. resident Magistrate to administer and carry out tlie laws. I believe that some Hon. Members of this House have mistaken the feelings of the country on this matter. Any dissatisfaction that exists is not with the i»resent system of government but with the expense of carrying the system out. We all feel that, and we all know that, it cannot be avoided, for reasons which have been given over and over again in this House, namely, the smallness of population; scattered as it is over so vast an area. 1 have not heard during the debate any arguments that will i)rove to me or to this House that under Responsible Government we could have a cheaper form of government. I for one could not be convinced that we should. I believe that the pulilic moneys wo^ild be wasted, peculation and dishonesty would be the order of the day. We are told by the Hon. Member for Yale we must have a beginning. I am aware of that fact, and for one shall assist to put off the evil day. I prefer for a time — until our population increases — to live under the present form of Government, one under which, I am proud to say, I have lived for eleven years without seeing the faults of maladministration and other evil aecusation.s that have been hurled at it by the Hon. Member for Lillooet. I am aware that that Hon. gentleman was himself in some subordinate position under the Government; he may of his own i)ersonal knowledge, while in that capacity, be aware of .some malpractice, but I defy him to point out a single instance brought before the notice of the Government that did not receive the strictest investigation and in which the individual complained of, if the charges were proved, was not discharged. In conclusion, Mr. Chairman, I shall take this opportunity of expressing my appreciation of the otllcers generally that have carried on the Government of this Colony during the eleven years that I have lived here ; and I challenge any Hon. gentle- man to prove by the records of Her Majesty's Colonies, that in any Colony or Dependency of the British Crown laws have been more justly administered, life and property better protected, or the affairs of the Colony canned on mth greater rectitude than in the one in which we are now living. Holding these views, I must decline to support either of the recommendations before the Committee. Hon. Mk. ALSTON- — Sir, I am in favour of Responsible Government, but not the form that has been discussed in this House at so great a length. I believe all representative Govern- ments are responsible. The Hon. and learned Member for Victoria District has quoted John Stuart Mill. I believe. Sir, that the words Responsible Government do not occur in his book ; he shows that the form applicable to one country will not do for another. We have heard enough in this Council to make me believe that the people do not want Responsible Govern- ment ; I believe that a representative form of Government is the only form that will suit this Colony. It has been well shown by the Hon. Mr. Wood, that from the difficulty of getting districts represented, this Colony is not adapted for purely representative institutions. I think it most desirable that Executive Members should have seats in this Council, and I think that a partially elective House would best represent the interests of the entire community. The American form of Governmeuit is in a certain sense responsible, executive officers being elected for a term of four years. England possesses a different form, and Canada differs again from England. The Colony from which Governor Musgrave came is the last that has received Responsible Government ; thus we may fairly trust to His Excellency to judge for us as to the probability of its working well here. The smallest Colony possessing Responsible Government is I'rince Edward's Island ; and we who do not possess a population one-twelfth the size of that of Newfoundland, are asking for Responsible Government. The Hon. and learned Member for Victoria City (Mr. Drake), who seems to uphold Responsible Government against his own convictions, admits that all power would be held in Victoria ; and he says that there would be no harm in such centralization. I think, Sir, that he has read John Stuart Mill to little purpose if such be his conviction. Hon. Mr. HUMPHREYS — Sir. I am more impressed than ever with the absolute need of Responsible Government. I think the Hon. Chief Commissioner particularly, and the Hon. Member for Victoria City, have proved conclusively that two-thirds of the peojtle representing property are determined to Luive Resjionsible Government. The Hon. Member for the City told us the people were not in favour of Responsible (iovernment. and in the same sentence he tells us that if Confederation were set before the people with Responsible Government mixed up with it, the people would take Responsible Government to the exclusion of material interests. I have said, and say again, I am in favour of Confederation, and I earnestly hope that it will be for the benefit of the Colony. I sometimes think that some Hon. Members at the other end Confederation Debate. 121: of the House intend to defeat Confederation. I may be called an extremist — an agitator; I admit I am. I de.sire to see the people having a share in the Government, instead of being mider a despotism, or what is equivalent to it. I have been in this Colony nearly eleven years ; I am satisfied that the people want Responsible Government. Hon. Members say there are different forms of Responsible Government ; admitted. I am not sure that it would be advisable to introduce any one system in its entirety here. Hon. Members have been quoting writers upon this subject; I will quote Lord Macaulay, lie says: "Government, like a good coat, is fit for the body for which it is made." I say if we cannot live on Responsil)le Government, we cannot live on irresponsible Government. I do not know what is shadowed forth in His Excellency's speech; I confess I cannot understand it. If the Governor had promised a two- thirds elective House, with heads of department sitting to give information without voting, then I think the question of Responsible Government would never have been considered. I ask Hon. Members to endeavour to approximate, and if they cannot agree to full Responsible Government, then to give us as liberal a form as they can. If you withhold Responsible Government you lose Confederation. Hon. Mr. ROBSOX — Mr. Chairman, in rising to reply to what has fallen from Hon. gentlemen in opposition to Responsible Government, I crave the kind indulgence of this House ; and should I, in the course of my remarks, appear unduly harsh or unkind, I beg Hon. gentle- men to attribute it to earnestness in advocating a great cause, rather than to a desire to wound the feelings of any. The Hon. Member for Cariboo, who is also a Member of the Executive, made a very convenient, yet, to my mind, singularly ineffective, reply to one point in my speech of Friday. I had. or fancied I had, with considerable force and elaborateness, pointed oiit the difficulties that might naturally be ]3resumed to lie in the way of obtaining Responsible Government under the new constitution i»roposed to be conferred upon this Colony ; and the only answer is that the Organic Act makes the necessary provision. I was as well aware of the provision made in that Act before the Hon gentleman spoke as after ; but no attempt has been made to meet the difficulties I suggested. The Hon. gentleman, with that facetiousness, poetry and ready wit for which he is so justly celebrated, proceeded to point out the undesir- ableness of Responsible Government in this Colony. Under it. he told us. Cabinets would be too versatile. In fact, he described the working of such institutions as a sort of dissolving views, a thimble-rigging operation, " now you see it, now you don't." in such quick succession would the changes be rung. The Chief Commissioner would, it appeared from his description, be much like Lincoln's celebrated fiea. Now, Sir, where did the Hon. gentleman acquire his experience of the working of Responsible Government? Was it not in Canada? What do we find to be the experience of that country? Certainly it does not in any way warrant the conclusions arrived at by my Hon. friend. On the contrar.v, we find a change of Ministry to be of very rare occurrence. The present Premier of Canada has, with one unimportant inter- mission, been at the head of the Government for some twelve or fourteen years ! As I stated on a former occasion, the people of British Columbia are not politicians, nor are they fond of change. They are naturally conservative. Give tlunn a people's Government, and in no part of Her Majesty's Colonial Empire will a less versatile, a more conservative and loyal people be found. The Plonourable gentleman said Responsil)le Government would blow the chaff into this House. Now, although I listened with pleasure, as I always do, to that gentleman's oratory and humour, I could not but experience a feeling of regret to find him on the wrong side of a great question, taking a false step. It is sad to witness the early mistakes of a young man of such talents, aml)itloii, and promise; and when I liearsuch words conilng from my Hon. friend. I begin to fear that the bright future, the brilliant political career I had marked out for him may never be realized. Sir, a certain proportion of cliaff may be lilown into tliis House, under Respon- sible Government, as is tlie case now; but. depend upon it, under the form of government we seek, the chaff would quickly be blown out at tlie back door, before the breath of public opinion. The people can always discriminate between wlieat and chaff, and Responsible Government supplies the most effective winnowing-fan witii wliicli to separate tlie two. We were reminded by that Hon. gentleman tliat Responsible Governiiiciit liad its failures as well as its successes; and he referred to Victoria, Australia, and to Jamaica, as instances of failure. Now. I cannot but think the Hon. gentleman has been singularly unfortunate in going to these Colonies to prove his proposition. Tlie former ranks amongst the most flourishing. i)rogresslve. and wealthy of all Her Majestj''s Colonial po.ssessions. Doubtless very grave political difficulties 124 Confederation Debate. were encounti'red. and many niistakt's characterized the enrli(>r workhitr of Responsible Govern- ment in that tine Colony; but it would be most unfair to charge all these to the possession of such institutions. Nay. most of them had their origin in a different political system. As for Jamaica. Hon. gentlemen must be aware that it never possessed Responsible Government. A mi.\ed representative system it had; and the chief cause of failure was the absence of responsi- bility. It was just because those who administered the affairs of that unfortunate Colony were not responsible to the people that the opposition, led by the ill-fated (Jordon — a man of uuiiuestionable aliility. although, perhaps, somewhat deficient in judgnient — was induced finally to a.ssume the extreme attitude which resulted so fatally. The Hon. and learned Attorney- General made an effort, not altogether warranted by facts, to force the advocates of Responsible (iovernment into a false and disadvantageous position, in relation to the Government pro- grannne: but Hon. gentlemen will recollect how anxious I was. at the beginning of this debate, to meet the views and adopt the suggestions of that Hon. and learned gentleman, in respect to the particular time and mode of approaching this question. My desire to give the Government a general and strong support upon the great question of Confederation is no secret in this House; and I think I can speak with equal confidence in regard to the views and intentions of my Hon. friend on my left (the Member for Yale). But enough has already been said upon this point; and I have only to add that I utterly refuse to occupy the position in which the Hon. and learned Attorney-General appears desirous of placing me. That Hon. gentleman was content to give the same answer to the main ob.jection as that given all round the Govern- ment end of tlie table, viz., that the Organic Act i)rovides the necessary and ready means of obtaining what we .seek; and he further tells us that, inasmuch as Responsible Government relieves Governors of responsibility, a Governor would naturally be read.v to make the conces- sion. Such, however, is not the accustomed working of human nature. Such is not the lesson of history. The ruler hugs power as the mi.ser does his gold, nor parts with it only as it is extorted piecemeal by the people. I am chai-ged with having used threats — threats of blood ! Now, Sir, I must i)lead " not guilty " to this charge. While carefully avoiding everything in the nature of tluu^it and prediction. I asked the Government to read carefully those lessons written in blood around us, and implored them to take warning from the errors and profit by the successes of others. We were told by the Hon. and learned Attorney-General that the Governor is i>owerless to grant what the Resolution asks ; but might not the same objection be raised to almost ever.v recommendation passed in connection with Confederation? His Excel- lency in asking Her Majesty's Government for power to give us a new Constitution. The Resolution merel.v suggests a more liberal Constitution than His Excellency proposes. There is. therefore, no weight in this objection. The Honourable gentleman next tells us that the Resolution inii)lies want of confidence in the Canadian Government; that they will not listen to the ci-y of the i)eople for Responsible Government. Now, the Hon. gentleman must be aware that Canada can onl.v listen to our cry when it is heard in the particular form prescribed b.v the Constitution. The ])eople can only cry through the Government it is proposed to give them under the Constitution foresh.ndowed in His Excellency's opening message; and I have already endeavoured to point out the i)robabilit.v that the new Government might refuse to litter a cry in fji.it direction at the desire of the i)eople. There is no such expression of want of confidence in the resolution. The Canadian Government could not interfere — would have no power to give us Responsible Government — initil asked by our Local Government to do so. Such objections I must, therefore, regard as frivolous, and utterly unworthy of the Hon. and learned Attorney-General. The Hon. Chief Commissioner followed with his accustomed ability, but, I venture to think, without his usual discretion. That Hon. gentleman set out by telling us that he (piite understood it to be necessary for certain members, in order to be consistent with pen and s]ieech outside of this House, to bring forward this subject; that it was a logical necessit.v. inexorable fate. Now. Sir, I cannot see into that Hon. gentleman's heart, any more than I can into the mysterious Executive Chamber. I will not. therefore, permit myself to impute motives to that Hon. gentleman in his oi)positiposition. The Hon. gentleman tells us that it is impossible to work Responsible Government with a population so scattered ; and in the same breath he tells us that we have Responsible Government now. — that the officials are responsible to the Governor, and he to the Queen. Well, certainly, this is a sort of responsibility ; but it is not precisely tb.e kind we want. The responsibility now existing takes the wrong direction. It is not responsibility to the people, but to the supreme power. In this sense the most despotic form of government in the world may be termed Responsible Government. The members of the Government of the Czar of Russia are responsible to him, and he is responsible to the Great Ruler of all ; ergo, Russia has Responsible Government ! The Hon. gentleman must see the absurdity of his startling propo- sition. He next tells us that if the people desire Responsible Government it is because they have been educated up to it by the press. There is more truth than argument in this. Doubt- less the press is in this, as in other civilized countries, the great educator of the people, especially in matters itolitical. Have not the people of England lieen similai'ly educated up to every great political reform? Such constitutes a legitimate and important function of the press. But the honourable gentleman goes further and tells us that if the present Goverinnent is unpopular with the people the res]>onsibility rests with the press, which has by misrepresentation created prejudice in the public mind. This proposition I beg most unqualifiedly to deny. The honour- able gentleman has confounded cause and effect. The press has opposed the Government because it is unpopular ; and the Government is unpopular because it is not a people's Government — because it does not possess the principle of responsibility to the people. It must be remembered that the press subsists on popular favour*; and in order to subsist it must oppose an unpopular form of Government. The press of this Colony has acted rather as the exponent than the moulder and leader of public opinion in its oi)position to the present form of Government. As I have repeatedly said, it is not the ofticials that are unpopular, so much as the system under which they administer. No officials can be popular under such a system. It places them in a false position. The press is, therefore, not to blame; it is the faithful exponent of public opinion. The honourable gentleman on my left [Mr, Holbrook] dissents from this view. It is the habit of some honourable gentlemen to affect to sneer at the press of this Colony. Thej' admit that the press of England is all I claim for it; but they allude sneeringly to the press of this Colony. Xow, I am free to admit that the leading journal of this Colony would lose by a coniparison with the leading joui'nal of England. It is smaller, and, perhaps, less ability is displayed in its editorial columns. Hut would not such a comparison be unfair? Apply this rule to other institutions of the Colony and what would be the result? Taking the press of this Colony with all its imperfections, and I boldly assert that it will compare favourably with that of any other country of like age and population. That is the way to institute the com- parison ; and it is the only true way. When I hear honourable gentlemen indulging in snein-s at the press 1 invariably arrive at one conclusion; and I will not tell you what that conclusion is. It will not be necessary for me to again allude to the improper use made of what I said about the horny-handed class, especially as the Hon. Mr. Walkem fully vindicated nie. One more point and 1 have done with the honourable the Chief Commissioner. That gentleman repeated the now stereotyped argument that the Dominion (Jovernment. being based ()n liberal institu- tions, would not withhold Responsible Government if desired by the people of liritlsh Columbia. That argument has been so often met that I was surprised lo hear it rei)eated by lliat honour- able gentleman. Need I say, for the twentieth time, that it is not the itrerogative of the Canadian Govei'nment to give, unless asked by our local (Jovernment, and that our loi :il (iovern- ment will, from its organic nature, be averse to ask anything of the kind? Surely I am entitled to regard the constant iteration of those exploded arguments as evidence of the weakness of the Government cause. Passing to the speech of the Honourable Mr. Walkem. my task is an easy one; for although that honourable gentleman s])oke with his accustomed eloquence and agreeableness of word and manner, all must have felt that his effort iiad aiiout it an air of special pleading in a bad cause. The princiiial objection that gentleman brought against the position I took on Friday was, that Itesponsible (Jovernment is not a jprinciiile. but a form. Now, I think it may be regarded as either or both, and I am not disposed to (piarrel aliout mere 12G Confederation Debate. words. What I contend for is Responsible Government. Tliat hononrable gentleman tells us that Canada did not set Responsible Government till her population reached about two millions. Now, while that sentleman is greatly astray in his figures. I cannot discover in his facts any evidence in support of the proposition he wishes to establish. They may prove that Responsible Government was long wrongfully withheld from Canada. I now come to my honourable friend the senior memlter for Victoria City. That lionourable gentleman started out by telling us that he intended to support the Government scheme, and to support it strongly ; but he added that he would not say much about Responsible Government. "Would that he had adhered to the latter resolution. It was but natural that, feeling himself on the wrong side of a great principle, he should be disposed to say little. But, unfortunately for himself, he has said nuich. a great deal too nuich. He said some things which it would liave been much better to have left luisald. He told us that Government for, by, and from the people means Government for, by, and with the politicians. Rut he does not stop there. He tells this House that the advocates of Responsible Government will be willing to surrender ;i.ll the other conditions in order to olitain that form of Government as a means of securing oftico, power, pickings ! Now, Sir, let us look at the political history, and position of the honourable gentleman who presumes, with so nuich boldness, to judge of other people's motives. I recollect when, some two years ago, that honourable gentleman was the most ardent of all Confederationists; when he desired to rush into an unconditional and l)lind union ; when he urged the then Governor to negotiate union by telegraph. At that time I was doubtful about the policy of immediate union, regarding such a step as somewhat premature and unreal, so long as the immense intervening territory remained an unorganized and unopen waste. Holding these views T proposed to strike the word ' imme- diate ' out of the resolution which had beeu moved by the Honourable Mr. DeCosmos ; but so enthusiastic, so fanatical, was the honourable the senior member for Victoria City that he longed for a stronger word than ' inunediate." Subsequently we saw that honourable gentleman the most ultra, the most rabid Anti-Confederate. We saw him opposing it in every way, both in the House and out of it, denouncing Canada as a most undesirable connection. Now, what do we see? We see the Anti-Confederate Lion rampant suddenly metamorphosed into the Canadian Lamb passant, with his longing eyes fixed on Ottawa ! Such has been the magic influence of the mysterious Executive Chamber. I do not, for one, regret the transformation ; but I do object to that gentleman turning I'ound so suddenly and denouncing the motives by which others are actuated. Does not that honourable gentleman live in a ' glass house ' in that sense which peculiarly disentitles him to throw stones? Is not he guilty of measuring other people's corn in his own bushel? Did not he cast all his political pi'inciples to the winds and l)olt in at the very first ojiening to place and power that presented itself? And who knows but there may be at this moment a mission to Ottawa dangling temptingly before his eager eyes? Is this the man who is entitled to turn round and, looking down from his pinnacle of temporary power, judge others? Sti'utting his hour of brief authority, he taunts us with seek- ing Responsible Government as a stepping-stone to power and pickings. I hurl back, with scorn and contempt, the accusation in his teeth ! To pass, however, to the so-called arguments put forward by that honoural)le gentleman, he tells us that the resolution asks for a Government like that of Ontario, — that we should require 40 or .jO members. Now, Sir. it is difficult to give him credit for sincerity, as every honourable member must see that the resolution asks nothing of the kind. It asks for a constitution based upon the principle of Responsible Government as existing in Ontario. That honourable gentleman has attem])ted to make me inconsistent with myself in saying that we shall l)e under the heel of Canada without Responsible Government, and that Canada desires that we should have such institutions. Now, I see nothing inconsistent in this. Canada does desire that the people of British Columbia should possess as full powers of managing their own local affairs as the people of the other Provinces possess; but Canada will have no power to grant these institutions until asked to do so in a constitutional way through and by our Local Government; and the weight of my objection lies in the reasonable belief that, however desirous the people may be. the Local Government will be naturall.v averse to a change calculated to lessen its ijower, and weaken the tenure by which its members hold office. Again, we are told that the Governor would not be disposed to withhold institutions which would relieve him of responsibility. However plausible this proposition may appear in theory, it is scarcely borne out by experience. As I have already stated, in reply to the honour- able and learned Attorney-General, history presents rulers in a different light. We are asked COXFEUERATIOX DEBATE. 127 what measuros of importance have been introduced that liave not been introduced by the Government? By this the honourable jrentleman wishes, I presume, to convey the idea that the Government so fully meets the wants of the people as to leave nothing for representative members to do. In what singular contrast is tliis with his utterances during past sessions. Here, again, we have the kindly bleating of the docile Confederation Lamb, instead of the terrific roar of the Anti-Confederate Lion of the past. Verily, the mysterious influences of tlie Executive Chamber must be potent. The honourable gentleman tells us that if we couple the question of Responsible Government with the conditions of union, the people will be willing to accept poorer terms in their eagerness to obtain it. Surely, if language means anything, this is an inadvertent admission of w^hat the honourable gentleman has been so stoutly denying, viz. : that the people desire Responsible Government. Leaving the honourable gentleman to the lashings of his own conscience, and to the seductive influences of the mysterious Executive Chamber, we next come to deal with the Honourable the Registrar of Titles. The Honourable Mr. Alston announces himself in favour of Responsible Government, but not the kind that would make the heads of Departments go in and out. He holds all Representative Government to be Responsible Government. The honouralile gentleman may be entitled to hold a theory pecu- liarly his own ; but it is scarcely the fitting time to announce personal theories. We are now dealing with the question of Responsible Government, as understood by political economists, not as understood by the honourable gentleman who has just propounded a political paradox. He has been reading John Stuart Mill, and he tells us that writer never mentions Responsible Government. I have not read Mill's theory, but I have read enough to know that he goes even further than I am prepared to go in the direction of responsibility. We have next the honour- able gentleman for Kootenay telling this House that with all his experience in the Colony he never heard a man express a desire for Responsible Government, and that his own constituents were distinctly opposed to it. Now. so far as that honourable gentleman's constituents are con- cerned, I am prepared to think that his opportunities of learning their views upon that or any other subject have scarcely been such as to entitle him to express a very positive opinion ; but when he tells this House that in all his experience in this Colony he has never heard a desire for Responsible Government expressed. I can only say that I am surprised. The honourable gentleman cannot but know, if he has not turned a deaf ear to politics altogether, that the question of Responsible Government has been a prominent issue at more than one election, and that it has been used as one of the chief reasons for Confederation from one end of the Colony to the other. But, Sir, I fear I have already wearied the House. Permit me to say, however, that throughout tliis protracted debate the efforts on the Government side of the House have been characterized by a want of argument, and by a sort of special pleading, a begging of the question almost painful to listen to. Every effort has been made to raise false issues and to misconstrue remarks coming from this side of the House, and a most unfair attempt has been made to place tlie whole question in a false and disadvantageous position ; yet this is scarcely surprising. It was not to be expected that the unrepresentative mendiers would approve the measure. I feel, however, quite indifferent about their votes. We have a large majority of the representative members with us, and their vote must virtually carry the measure. The great proposition I desire to impress upon honourable members is this : The Colony is about to become a Province of the Dominion of Canada. No union can be equitable and just which does not give this Colony equal political power — equal control over their own local affairs with that possessed by the people of the Provinces with which it is ]iroposed to unite. I care not how good the other conditions may be; if the people of British Cohunbia are placed in a false political position they will not be content, and the inauguration of such a union will only i)rove the beginning of new political discontent and agitation. Mistakes will doubtless result from the first workings of Responsible Government, but these mistakes were better made now than years hence, when the consequences might be more serious. The period of lisping, stammering infancy must be jiassed. Surely it is better to pass it now. while the political questions are few and simple, and (he interests conqiaratively small, than to wait for great development. Almost every speaker on the Government side has accilsed me of want of confidence in the Dominion Government. I have no want of confidence in that Government. I know the men who compose it too well for that. I know them as honourable. lil)eral, large- minded statesmen. But it is our Local' Government under the new Constitution. ]»roposed in terms so vague in His Excellency's opening message, that I doubt. The Canadian Goverinnent 128 Confederation Debate. will possess no constitutional power to grant us political relief until asked to do so by our Local Government ; and it is tlie liesitation, tlie disinclination of the Local (lovernnieut to move in tluxt direction whicli I dread. I would again warn the Government against endanger- ing the wliole sclieme by having it submitted to the people unaccompanied by " Itesponsible Government." Hon. Dr. CAIIRALL — Sir, on Friday last the honourable member for New Westminster spoke at some length upon this subject, and I replied as best I could, and it is in accordance with the eternal fitness of things that I should make a very few remarks. It is one of those happy things in nature that where the poison is there is the antidote always near. (Laughter.) I propose to give the antidote. I laid down two principles: First, that the Government did not believe tluit Itesponsible Government, as it is maintained in England, was applicable to this Colony. I hold to that. I maintain that no one has controverted this proposition ; no one has proved that it could be adapted to the requirements of this Colony; there has been burning eloquence and all that sort of thing, but no proof. But I say. Sir. that even now there is a measure of responsibility in this Government. I am responsible to my constituents, and if there is such an overwhelming force in favour of Responsible Government can I ever return here. The utui(»st that the honourable member for New Westminster has proved is, that under Con- federation it would take a great deal of time and much agitation to get Responsible Government, a minimum of five years and a maximum of ten years, and that as it would take that time it was better that we sliould have it at once. I say if one proposition is correct the other nuist be incorrect. If there is such an overwhelming desire on the part of the people for it, they will get it. If the majority even are in favour of Responsible Government there is no con- stitutional power to prevent their getting it. There is no desire on the part of the Government to withhold it. I say it is a want of responsibility of the Executive that has rendered them unpopular; but the people have never been asked to contrast the present form of Government with that shadowed out by His Excellency; and I say that heads of Departments under that system will be, to a certain extent, responsible. The present system is bad, but the olficers are good. I say that the retpiirements of the Colony will be met by the system proposed by His Excellency. If it is not. then let the people say so, and get Responsible Government. The honouralile member for New Westminster allows that it is only a question of time under the Organic Act. If it should take five years, then my point that there is not such a strong desire for it is proved. I said, and I say again, that in Jamaica they could not work Responsible Government, or even representative institutions, and in Victoria it remains to this day a monument of stujiidity and mismanagement. With regard to the assertion of the honourable member for New Westminster, I say that if speaking and voting from conviction are false steps, and a bar to advancement in political life, then I don't want to advance a step further in that direction. I say that Responsible Government has not been made a distinct issue in elections. The Government of the pet>ple was to be one of the consequences of Confederation ; I liope we shall get a people's Government before it. The present Executive Council is one-third unofficial ; the work they have done has brought a shapeless, formless phantom into one harmonious whole, and they propose to precede Confederation with a form of Government which will enable the people to decide what form of Government they will have. I coincide with the Honoural)le Chief Connnissioner of Lands and Works, that it was not necessary to introduce this subject into the Confederation Resolution. I am sorry that it was brought up at all in connection with our scheme. Hon. Dr. HEI^MCKEX — Sir, I wish to say in reply to the remarks of the honourable member for New Westminster, that I support the Government from conviction. I do not shirk my respon- sibility. I said that the one great thing the supporters of Responsible (Government are afraid of is, that it shall be set alongside of Representative Government. Honourable members may find when the resolutions return from Canada that I have still something to say upon them. The recommendation of the Honourable Mr. Humphreys was put by the Chair, and on division was lost. The reconnnendation of Honourable Mr. Robson was put by the Chair, and on division was lost. Clause fifteen then passed as read. The Honourable ATTORNEY-GENERAL introduced clause sixteen : " IG. The provisions in ' The British North America Act, 1807,-' shall (except those parts " thereof which are in terms made, or l)y reasonable intendment may be held to be specially Confederation Debate. 129 " applicable to and only affect one, and not the whole, of the Provinces now comprising; the "Dominion, and except so far as the same may be varied by this resolution) be applicable to " British Columbia in the same way, and to the like extent, as they api)ly to the other Provinces " of the Dominion, and as if the Colony of British Columbia had lieeu one of the Provinces " originally united by the said Act." Honourable Dr. Helmckeu aiid Honouralile Mr. Drake objected to this clause on the ground that its passing would kill tlie notices already on the paper. The Honourable ATTORXP]Y-GENERAL gave au assurance that the resolutions of which notice had been given should be discharged, and the opposition was withdrawn. Clause sixteen passed as read. " With reference to defences : — " A That it shall be au understanding with the Dominion that their influence will be used " to the fullest extent to procure the continued maintenance of the Naval .Station at Esquimalt. " i?. Encouragement to be given to develop the elticiency and organization of the Volunteer " force in British Columbia." On clause .i being read by the Chairman, Honourable Mr. Holbrook objected to Esquimalt being named, on the ground that it was only fair to New Westminster that one gunboat should be stationed there. Honourable ATTORNEY-GENERAL — I should have been very sorry to have this clause inserted if I thought it would give us only two or three gunboats. Honourable COLONIAL SECRETARY (Mv. Hankin)— Because the Naval Station is at Esquimalt it does not follow that every ship will remain there. The commanding officer can send ships where he pleases. Clause A passed as read. Hon. Mr. HT'MPHREYS asked what ' encouragement ' meant in clause B. Hon. ATTORNEY-GENERAL — At present there is no means of ascertaining what encour- agement can be given ; I suppose arms and money. Clause B passed as read. Hon. Mk. DeCOSJIOS — Mr. Chairman, I gave notice of my intention to bring up a clause with regard to provision being made to protect the agricultural produce of this Colony. It has been said by the honourable Executive Member for Victoria City that this differential tariff is quite a new thing to me. If he will take the trouble to refer to the Colonist of the 15th May, 1S()8. he will find that in an article written by myself I touched on this matter; it is not new to me. I am thoroughly persuaded that the district which I represent will be a unit against Con- federation without a provision to lieep up protection. From ('omox to Sooke the opinion on this point is as that of one man, and I believe I may say that it is the same thing as regards the whole of the agricultural districts on the Mainland, from Soda Creek to Kamloops. I hold, with respect to protection, that when farmers shall be able to produce farm produce in sufficient quantity to enable them to reduce their prices as low as the prices obtained ]>y the farmers of Oregon and Washington Territory; then protection is not essential, for this great and sulticient i-eason that if we can produce as good au article at home as we can get abroad, wliidi we can put down at the same price, the cost of transi)ort will be a sufficient protection. Our farmers will have a natural protection. With regard to manufactures, I am one of those who believe that our manufactures ought to be protected. If we go into public works we must have waggons and machinery, and tlie waggon-builders should have protection ; then, again, farming implements should be made in the Colony, and encouragement should be given to the manufacturer of the.se things. Again, there are tlie bootnniker and tailor, and the soapmaker and others, even the brewer, for whom we require protection. I ask from the Executive the insertion of this principle: "That British Columbia shall be entitled to levy and collect any tax, or t;ixes. on the sales of foreign produce and manufactures entered for home consum])tion e(|u;il in .•iiiioiuil to tlie duties of Customs now levied and collected on the same under the ' C'usloms Ordinance, ISllT,' provided, always, that British Columbia shall not be entitled to levy iind collect any such tax, or taxes, as aforesaid, if the duties of Customs of Canada extended and ai)i)lied to liritish Columbia, at the time of and after Fnion on such foreign produce and manufiu-tures shall be as high as the duties of Customs now levied and collected on tli(> same under the 'Customs Ordinance, 1SG7,' and provided always, that such foreign produce and manufactures shall be construed to mean no more and none other than such foreign produce and manufactures as may enter into competition 130 Confederation Debate. with the i)r()diu-e and inaiiufactuivs of British Coliinil)ia."" I dou't care how it is put iu, our niannfactures would come into competition with soods from Canada. That is a natural evil which we cannot avoid. There will be other advantajjes arising out of Confederation which will counterbalance this. Hon. Dr. HELMCKEN — I have nothing to do with the honourable gentleman's newspaper articles. I can only say that differential duties are contrary to the views of Her Majesty's Government. Hon. :\Ir. drake — The honourable member's explanation is different from the clause it.self. I suppose from the e.\]ilanation that it is intended to apply to all foreign produce and manufac- tures imported. I thiidc it will be better that I should move my motion as an amendment to his. .so as to confine the protection to agricultural produce. Hon. Mr. DeCOSMOS — I don't expect any re.solution of mine to pass. If it should pass I shall be quite surprised; but as I hold this to be the very keystone, and of more consequence than Ilesponsi])le Government, I deem it my duty to bring it forward. But to confine the protection to agricultural produce will not reach the issue. It would not touch our rude manufactures. Hon. Dr. HELMCKEN — This is left an open question by the Government. I wish it to be distinctly understood that this question of the agriculture of the country is an open question. I think I shall be found on the side of these honourable gentlemen. T think with the honourable member for Victoria District that this is the most imjiortant question comprised in these resolu- tions. If the terms do not contain a clause giving protection to agricultural interests, I will answer for it there will be no Confederation. Hon. CHIEF C0M:MISSI0NER— I would ask the honourable member to define how far this is left an oi>en question? Hon. Dr. HELMCKEN— I mean that every member of the Government is free to vote as he pleases upon this question of encouragement to the agricultural interests of the Colony. Hon. Mr. WOOD — Then it is free for official members to vote these i-ecommendations? Hon. Dr. HELMCKEN — Certainly it is, and it is right that it should be so; for I consider, Sir. that we have come to a most imi)ortant question, one that concerns our own country. Con- federation must not come like an eclipse, it must not produce a darkness and then leave us to recover. I say that if these terms are left to pass as they are. and return from Canada, and are passed by the people, they will produce great ills. I say that the agricultural interests are most important ; when we come to manufacturing interests it is different, they have made but little progress. Manufacturers will meet with competition from Canada, and the Dominion would not stand it ; we cannot have protection for manufactures, but with regard to farm produce it is different. I say that the farmei-s could not exist without protection ; you will depopulate the country by bringing Confederation without protection. I have stated that this Colony affords more inducement to people to settle than any other Colony I know of; yet we do' not raise .sufficient stock for ourselves. Look at the statistics: $111,447 is the value of agricultural pro- duce — barley, flour, malt, wheat, and oats — imported. Of barley, there is nearly one million pounds imported, and this would talte about 450 acres to grow in ; of malt, about 4,500 bushels, which would require ninety acres to grow in ; of flour and wheat about 87.000 bushels, which would require about 2,500 acres to grow in ; of oats, about 2.364 bushels, which would require about sixty acres to grow in ; altogether about 3,0S0 acres. More land must be in cultivation to produce the quantity of cereals which I have enumerated as being imported annually, and this number of acres, supposing a man to cultivate fifty acres, would give employment to 123 men; so that 123 men will save the Colony $111,447. or $900 each, besides growing what they want for their own consum])tion. In relation to this it must be recollected that mills would l)e at work to grind, machinery would be required, and labour of other kinds would be required, such, for instance, as brewers. In addition to this comes in pigs. There were 508 of these animals imported last year ; less by 28 than in the preceding year. This is an improvement, when we consider that the amount of l)acon and hams imported is 01.740 pounds less than last year. To make this bacon about 500 hogs are required; so you will see that nearly the whole amount of bacon is made by and from foreign hogs. Take butter — 82.000 pounds, or forty tons, were imported last year. It will take 400 more cows, yielding 200 pf)inids each per annum, to jiroduce this amount, and it would save the Colony $.^l.."o8 per annum. One thousand seven hundred head of beef cattle would save annually $0(!.n4!). Init it presupposes 0.800 more cows at least. Now, then, to supply ourselves with beef and mutton, and cheese. 3,000 more cows are required; but it takes four years to produce beef. We import 7,000 sheep. Surely no one will tell us that we have no room for 7,000 sheep or Confederation Debate. 131 3.000 cows. "Why, it ouly means 20,000 acres, or thirty-six miles of lanil; six miles will supply the cereals — thirty-six miles in all. Why, the flats at the Fraser would yield it all. The cattle business certainly recpiires capital, but the capital will produce great results, and recollect the good It would do the country, the amount of labour employed and land cultivated for the purpose ; wool, hides, and hones for house use or export. What I wish to impress uix>n you. Sir, is the profit tliat might be derived from the introduction of a couple of hundred families. What an immense loss the Colony would sustain if this were thrown o])en to the Americans. What a magnificent field for imniigration. jtarticularly when we consider how much more of agricultural produce will be retpiired when public works are carried on. The market is good now ; how nuicli bettor it would be then. I think it would be doing tlio.se farmers who had conmieuced farming under a protective tariff a great injustice to withdraw protection from them now. We must have an agricultural population. If Confederation comes, and brings the Canadian tariff, we destroy the agricultural interests altogether, and the country will become a wilderness. Confederation with- out these terms will not, in my opinion, be accepted. Leave them out and Confederation will most assuredly fail. Farmers in the Upper Country have a natural protection from the difficulty of transi)ort. The day will come, and pretty quickly, when they will raise more there than they have a market for. They must find an outlet, which must be where the consumers are. If the duty is not maintained, how can they send their produce down? If the railway .should be built, the cost of transporting goods from the interior will be diminished, and farms of the I.^pper Country will then find the tariff of more con.sequence to them than to the people of the Lower Country. I say Confederation will not go down without protection. The agricultural interest will prefer living in comfort with protection, and without Confederation, than in a perpetual struggle for livelihood under Confederation. I am in favour of protecting our farming interests ; but if we had a lower scale upon some other goods I should think it an advantage. I support protection to the agricultural interest, and the throwing open of our ports to other things. The latter part is, I fear, not an open question. Hon. C0M:\IISSI0XER of CUSTOMS— (Mr. Ilamley)— It is ditticult to tell which resolu- tion the Hon. Member is speaking in favour of. It is quite true that protection may be too little on some things and too much on others ; for instance, I consider the duty on horses too high. I will tell lion, gentlemen that a revision of the tariff was considered last year by a Committee appointed by the late Governor, and a majority of that Committee, who were all business men, reported in favour of lowering the duties on agricultural produce, and there was a special report in favour of making Victoria almost a free port. Hon. Mr. Df.COSMOS — That was the bogus Council, I suppose. Hon. ]Mr. HA^MLEY — They were a Committee of gentlemen whom the late Governor thought fit to appoint. I think the tariff must be altered to suit this Colony, but I believe it must be left to the Canadian Parliament to alter. What will our representative members do sitting in the Canadian I'arliament, except they look after our interests? There is no obstacle that I know of to there being a different tariff to suit the interests of this or any particular Province of the Dominion. Hon. Mr. IIOLBROOK — There is no rea.son that there sliould lie a siiullar tariff .-ill over, but I think it must be altered by the Canadian Parliament. Hon. Dr. HELINICKKX — I do not think that it is necessary that one tariff' should prevail all over tlie Dominion. Hon. Mr. HAM LEY— Not at all, not at all. Hon. Dr. HELMCKEN — But there can be no differential duties: tliat is forbi(hlen by Ihiglisli statutes. Hon. Ml!. IIA.MLEV — No; not by statute; by instructions, Hon. Dr. HEL.MCKEX — So far from leaving it to the Canadian Parliament. 1 sjiy we must go in with it altered. How absui-d for eight members to attempt to revise the tariff of British Columbia in the Dominion INirlianient. Hon. Mr. TRUTCH— I don't see it. Hon. Mr. HAM LEY— Nor do I. Hon. Dr. HELMCKEN — Why. look how ridiculnus it is to cctUK^ to this Hnuse to jirojiose any alteration in the tariff, llow iiuicli ni()r(> so in the Doniiiiidu PaiiinnuMit. where so iii;iny Avould be on the other side? If at .nil. it nnist be done by ourselves. The Canadian (Jovernment must agree to it before we go into Confederation. The other interests are subsidiary to it. On motion of Hon. Mr. Ring, tli(> debate was adjourned to AVednesday, the 2;?rd. 132 Confederation Debate. WKOXKsnAY. ■2?>Kn Maiu ir. ISTO. Hon. Mi{. WOOD rose to resume the debate ou Tariff, and said:— Mr. Chaii'man, in si)eak- ins to tlie motions now l)efore tlie House, it will hardly be necessary for me to say that I think this (luestiou of Tariff the most important of all that have been introduced during? this debate. My object is. as I have said, to reduce to the utmost, in the event of Confederation with Canada, the chance of difference with the Dominion ; my objection to Confederation being that, however much it may apparently and at first tend to confer upon the Colony material benefits, yet there is every fear of consequent reaction and disaffection. In dealing with the matter it will be necessary to see whether the subject of Tariff now before us will have the effect of raising a direct question and difference between this Colony and Canada. Tariff" is not simjjly a mode of collecting taxes; it i.s a .system with a double object. The object of obtaining revenue, and in the "obtaining of that revenue the further object of promoting domestic and home industries by a just discrimination between the subject-matter on which ta.xation is levied. The might attract some ship- builders. Now as to trade — export trade. This is surely an item, though possibly a small item, in our wealth ; yet still, if we export only to Puget Sound, we might encourage such commerce. It is an industry and a source of wealth; it causes foreign ships to come, and causes an expendi- ture of money in our ports; it adds to the number of merchants, drays, and labourers, and increases general business; a vitality is given by it which makes it an element of wealth; it seems to have been l)enelicial here, and certain it is that it is estimated in this Colony as a material interest. How is (his expoit ti-ade to lie protected? Some say by free port, that is to say, no Customs duties; others say: " Keduce taxation to a mininnim on goods in which there is a tangible export trade." Within these limits of what we may call moderate protection, we may reasonai)ly suppose tlie Colonists of P.ritish Cohimbia to be desirous to legislate; and .supi)ose we desire to have iiupleiueiits of labour and iiKutiiiiery. and some goods cheaji and free, and put ten ])er cent, on inu)orted agricultural produce. This is the reverse of Canadian policy. As regards machinery. I l)elieve the Canadian tariff gives fifteen per cent, on manu- factured machinery at least. There is nothing to jireviMit the Canadian tariff from being increased. I'rotection may run rampant in the Dominion. You have no guarantee. I say that in these fiscal questions we are at issue as affwts some of our most important elements of 134 Confederation Debate. national wealth. Thero would he a conflict, not only between the tariffs of British Columbia and Canada, but between the protective policy of each Trovinee. How is this cause of discon- tent and conflict of interest to be removed? Why, by a British Columbia tariff for British Columbia. This place has no connnercial connection with Canada. Canada affords us no market. There is no frontier to cause a difficulty with Custom House OtHcers. Why not have different tariffs? In the event of reciprocity with the United States we might be compelled to sacrifice the farmer, but possibly he might be in a condition to support himself by produce for which we have some special aptitude. Assuredly we shall have discontent, or worse, if the tariff' is made oppressive, if we have for it to suffer the extinction, or the disadvantage, of our own industries. I have said hastily, give us our own tariff" and I am almost in favour of Con- federation. I think I nmst take that expression of opinion back. There are so man.^ other matters, so many i)oints of differences between us and Canada, that under any circumstances there would be a continual struggle with the other Provinces. But, however this may be, if you wish not to pi-ovoke and keep up a sore question, have a separate tariff. Give to Canada and Canadian interests a tariff" framed to meet their wants, and give to Bri'tish Columbia its own especial tariff". If the tariff" of Canada is to rule, I fear it will never be altered, for the feeble voice of our eight members would never be listened to in the Parliament of Ottawa, and the Canadian tariff, framed for the support and maintenance of Canadian interests, would assuredly prevail. The Hon. CHn<:F COMMISSIONER said:— Sir, after the very able abstract review of the whole question of tariff", customs, and taxation of the honourable gentleman who has just sat down, I will not add anything by way of dissertation. But I must recall the House to the practical consideration of the sub.iect. I acknowledge the ability of the honourable and learned member, and quite agree with him that this is one of the most important matters connected with Confederation. Then w'hy, it might be asked, was it not touched upon in the terms? Not because it has not been fully considered, but because the Organic Act puts it virtually out of the power of the Colony to in'escribe what foi'm of tariff we should have under Confed- eration. The scheme, as has been already pointed out by the Hon. Commissioner of Customs, is based on the transfer of the control of our Customs to Canada ; therefore, it is not within our province, under the scheme submitted, to impose on the Dominion, or even to propose any special tariff" for this Colony ; but this is a matter which is left open for the consideration of this Colony on its merits, and is left open, as the Hon. Member for Victoria has told you, for this Council to make suggestions as to what tariff may lie desirable under Confederation. I take tills opportunity to set right the impression which seems to prevail as to the liberty of (Government ^lemliers upon this question. It is not left open to us to complicate the terms by inserting any condition as to make it in fact a sine qua nan; but it is left open for this Council to suggest what tariff" would be suitable for this Colony. The Hon. Mr. Wood has discussed this matter on its abstract merits, as if it was in our power to dictate to Canada what tariff we should have ; he has laid before this House very ably the pros and cons of tariff" and free port. It is for us to consider what tariff would best suit us in or out of Confederation; but it is not allowed to us to prescribe to the Dominion what form of Customs duties they shall adopt in this Colony, or in this Province, as it will bo. We have placed the control of the matter out of our hands. [No, no. — Hons. Helmckon and Wood.] Well, Sir, I believe we have; I say that view is imposed upon us by the terms, and I think it is better that it should be so; and for this reason: We, as being accpuiinted with the wants of the place, are best able to point out in what respect we need protection, and where our interests are likely to suffer from the tariff" of the Eastern I'rovinces. But I believe. Sir, that there are those in the Dominion whose larger experience, and mature views, will render them much better able than us to supply such remedy as will be most beneficial. I am perfectly willing to explain my views on the subject of tariff" and free port m the abstract, and the Government invite the freest discussion on the point, both as regards protection to agriculture and manufactures, and free port. But I believe it will be better for the Colony to leave the decision and the remedy for the evils to those who will have the care of this Province, as well as the Eastern Provinces. I think it wuU be to the interest of statesmen in the Dominion to treat this Colony well. Instead of feeling any want of confidence in those statesmen, I feel sure that every possible measure to jtromote the interests of this Colony will be well considered. They are in a better position to decide what will be most beneficial to this Colony, even in regard to tariff. I would rather hear Cox FEDERATION DEBATE. 135 moi'e opinious expressed before I offer a suggestion. It is my iuteiitiou to offer a resolution iu general terms so as to suggest to the Dominion Government that our agricultural interests must lie protected, and that certain things are required, and to ask the Dominion for such special provisions in regard to tariff' as we think Ave re^iuire. "NVe are not iu a position, after having endorsed the scheme of the Government, and after having handed over the sole control of the Cusitoms to Canada, to prescribe what taritf we shall have, or to impose conditions as to our local tariff. Hon. Mk. liORSOX — Mr. Chairman, while I consider the question of tariff" one of very great importance, it does not appear to me that it necessarily forms any part of the terms. It is, iu my opinion, futile to Imagine that we shall obtain power, under Confederation, to frame and regulate our own tariff. The Customs tariff" i.s es.sentially a Fedei'al measure, and the Dominion Government cannot very well permit a I'rovince to make its own tariff. To do so would, in my opinion, be to admit a principle which would ultimately break up the whole Con- federation. If such a concession were made to British Columbia every other Province in the Dominion would forthwith clamour for it. The Dominion tariff is of necessity a Federal matter, to be dealt with by the Federal Parliament, and it is unreasonable to expect that such au exception will be made iu our favour. The Customs tariff' is the main vsource of Federal revenue ; and if any I'rovince were permitted to tinker with it, the Federal revenue would, indeed, be precarious. History does not encourage us to hope for such a power. Taking the Fnited States which, in this respect, pi'esents conditions not dissimilar to those of the Dominion, we find that the Customs tariff has ever 'been a Federal question. To no State or Territory has it been conceded to deal with its own tariff. If the strongest reasons had not existed for Dhis, we should certainly have fouud exceptions made in favour of Pacific States and Territories. Hon. Mennbers will I'ecollect the bitter complaints made in earlier times on this Coast against Federal tariffs ; yet the people, while complaining, were never foolish enough to claim or exjiect the right to regulate their own tariff". They knew perfectly well that such a power was wholly incompatible with Union. It is as well that we should not cling to any such hope as that of being permitted to make and regulate our own tariff under Confederation. I quite concur with the Hon. the Chief Commissioner in the view that, notwithstanding the difference in existing conditions on this side of the continent, aud on the Atlantic side of It, there are many questions, even of tariff, which would be more successfully dealt with at Ottawa, aud that our repre- sentatives would be listened to, and would have their due weight upon such questions. Probably through their influence the tariff would, in some respects, be made more conformable to our circumstances and interests; but the Dominion tariff nuist lie altered and maintained by the Federal I'arliament. and not by any Provincial authority. AVe occupy a very exceptional position, and shall do so for years, in regard to such questions, and this might justify us iu asserting that the tariff of Canada, as a whole, is not ai)plicable to British Columbia at present. But, Sir, permit me to say that this question, like most others, has two sides to it, and has not been approached with that fairness and candour which its great importance demands. We are very apt to estimate protection above its real value — to forget the price we pay for it. Even our farmers sometimes pay more for protection than it is in reality worth to them. Under fi'ee trade the products of this part of the Colony commanded a nuich more I'oady market, and higher prices, than they do now after three years of i)rotection. I am willing to admit that a few farmers have thriven, partly, perhaps, on protection, but partly, too, I am apt to think, at the exjjense of other classes and other interests in the Colony. Let us ivmember that protec- tion is not au unmixed good, and that it sometiuie.s costs more than it is really worth. It should also be remembered that the importance of protection is somewhat localized in its applicatiou. Nature has given ample protection to the interior of the Colony; and it is, iu reality, only on this Island and the Lower Fraser that artificial protection can he desirable. I venture to think that there is a great future 'before Vancouver Island, but I do not believe that it will ever owe its greatness to agricultural devebrpment. I believe that its conuuercial, maritime, mineral, and manufacturing industries will far outweigh its farming interests, and I do not think, therefore, that we would be justified in refusing Confederation ui)on fair aud equitable terms, simply because we could uot have jiower to regulate the Customs tariff, I regret that I am unable to agree with any one of the reconunendations now before the Committee. The wisest course, iu my opinion, will be to ask the Dominion Government to withhold the applica- tion of the Federal tariff of Customs to British Columbia for a fixed period, say, until railway 136 CONFEDEUATIOX DEBATE. coniiiiuiiieation shall have been established thron.t^h the I)(iiniiiioii to the racilic. T'ntil that; takes i)lace British Coluinltia imist continue to occupy a position so isolated, and so exceptional, as to render the Sfneral tarilT. however well adaivted to the Provinces to the eastward of the Rocky Mountains, scarcely suited to us. lUit with the o])enin,i; of continuous railway com- nnmication these excei)tional conditions will, for the most part, disappear. Look, for instance, at California. What a complete revolution the railway has wroutrht in the condition of that State. The moment the railway was opened. California was no longer se])arated from the great commercial centres of the Eastern States by thousands of miles of sage-bush and desert. It was practically set down alongside of them ; or. to use the words of another, time and sjiace were annihilated, and California became, for the first time, a fitting subject of a common tariff framee not extended over the Colony of British Columbia until railwa.v communication therewith shall have been established. Should this be agreed to on the part of the Canadian Government, it would then become our duty, upon entering the Dominion, to remodel our tariff with a view to protecting local industries on the one tiand. and building up our commercial and maritime interests on the other. Canada might, possibly, sacrifice a little revenue in the first instance, but it would come back to her a hundred fold in the greatly enlarged prosperity certain to follow. In this way, also, would be presented a living recognition of the necessity for railway comnuinicatioii. if not an incentive for the speedy consummation of that great desideratum. The course which I propose will more fully meet the local necessities of the country, while it will be more acceptable to the people, and, I feel assured, more likely to meet with the concurrence of the authorities at Ottawa. It possesses the advantage of accomplishing more good than can iK)ssil)ly be attained in the way proposed either by the Hon. Member for A'ictoria District, or that ])roposed by another Hon. Member, and. at the same time, of steering clear of constitutional difficulties. lion. Mr. DkCOSMOS — Sir, we have heard some very good and eloquent speeches. I intend to say a few words, and will begin with first principles. When the Confedei'atiou Delegates first met. they proposed to adopt a tariff similar to that of the Tuited States; that the Federal Government alone should have the right to impose customs duties; that there should be no sub- sidies, and that each Province should raise its own revenue hy direct taxation: but it was found that Local Governments were not favourable to direct taxation. At the Conference at AVest- minster it was at first proposed to give local legislatures power to make laws and impose direct taxation, but when the Organic Act was prepared that part was dropped out. I have desired to harmonize with the Organic Act. Whatever we may do we should harmonize with the Organic Act; by so doing we shall meet with less objection at Otttawa. In looking at this question I may come to the conclusion that there is a possibility for the I>ocal CJovernment to raise taxes, but if it was referred to the Privy Council they might say it clashed. I will illustrate my meaning: I think the Legislature of Ontario voted an additional sum to one of the Judges: the Privy Council said it was unconstitutional to do .so. So it might be if the Local (Government imposed a tax xipon foreign produce and manufactures. But we must not clash with the Dominion (Jovernnienl. In ca.se the Dominion enacted customs laws lower than our own. we would have the privilege to put direct taxes on those articles so as to give protection to them. Turning to the Year Book, I find that in Xew Brunswick the export dues on lumber amounts to $70,000. This is an export revenue for a source of revenue. If the Government of New Brunswick was able to except this item from the oi)eration of the Dominion tariff, why should we not be able to get the .siune sort of difference? The Canadian Revenue will not suffer; every article will have to pay the Canadian tariff, and Canada will benefit by any ])rosperity that we enjoy. Hon. Du. CAKKALL — For how long do you propose to su.spend the operation of the Dominion tariff? Confederation Debate. 137 Hon. Mr. DeCOSMOS — I have said indefinitely — possibly for ten or twelve years. We may have the Railway completed by that time. The Hon. Mr. Wood put the question properly. The tariff is a thing that is changeable — it ri.ses and falLs. Suppose that Canada has to raise six millions for a guarantee for the Railway, they might have to raise the tariff. I think the tariff will probably rise for a long time. But this is aside the issue. My object in making this propo- sition is to prevent clashing between our Local Government and the Dominion. I include produce in my recommendation. — which means stock, cereals, and vegetables. If a i)rovision of that sort were added we would be in a position to get a certain degree of protection, and the largest interest, that is the agricultural interest, would be satisfied. But I maintain that beyond this we ought to protect certain rude manufactures; and in going into the Dominion we should go ^\ith as little friction as possible; there must be some friction, but we must keep things as smooth as l>ossible. There will be, as I have said before, a revolution in labour and value. Now. we do not want too nmch protection. Let our agricultural interests be satisfied, and if those engaged in rude manufactures are protected the people will be .satisfied. There are also a class engaged in trade who lielieve in protection; you will find them the agricultural interest, the manufacturing interest, and lielievers in protection, who will form a strong band of opponents to Confederation. Take away this subject of friction and you have the whole thing easier. If they are not con- sidered there will be opposition before Confederation, and more after. If Hon. Members desire to keep up a feeling of loyalty towards Canada after Confederation, they will protect these interests. With respect to the Hon. Member for New Westminster, his argument is no stronger than his weakest point, which is — [Hon. Dr. Helmcken — His resolution]. Well, perhaps this is the weak point. He admits the whole point. 1 do not intend to follow the Hon. ^Member. I ask the Hon. Members to consider this iinestion so as to consider indu.^itries and manufactures, so that the union may be lasting. I hope both sides will unite heartily in shaping our institutions with this end in view. Hon. Mr. RING — Mr. Chairman, I, only desire to drop a few bints. I say that the Organic Act is wholly inapplicable to this Colony. Does the Hon. Member for New Westminster mean to hand us over under this Organic Act to swell the coft"ers of the Dominion? I hail any approach to free trade ; I believe in it ; free trade should have as free a course as the wind. Now, Sir, with regard to what has been said about protection to connnerce; there are natural and artificial protections. I am for protecting the farmer by natural protections. Any attempt to shut out the surplus produce of another country nuist fail. The attempt to protect farmers by imposing a tax on flour and such articles, is a mistake. Any protection beyond harl)our and pilot dues is a vicious system. Then, say others: free port is abolished, would you go back to direct taxation? I say, how c-au we ascertain what the ))eop]e can pay by taxing income and property. The revenue would be smaller, but it is not fictitious. We must curtail expenditure, and having done so, I would abolish customs altogether as a source of revenue. I agree entirely with the proposition of the Hon. Member for New Westminster, that tlie tariff" of the Dominion is a Federal matter. Hon. Mr. HUMl'HREYS — Mr. Cbairnian. I rise to sui)p()rt the n-conuneiKlatioii of" the Hon. Memlier for Victoria District. I have listened carefully to the lofty arguments of the Government appointees on this tpiestion. It appears to me that the mistakes which the English generally make are attributable to their reading and studying great English writers too nnich, instead of considering what is practically applicable to a new country. Did countries are, in this respect, very different to new. Free trade may suit England and ollu-r old countries, whilst it may act very perniciously in a new one. Even in old countries a large jn-oportion of the people whom free trade is calculated to benelil aic against it. But in new coiinlries protection is absolutely necessary. It is said by some Hon. gentlemen that the farming interests in the upper country needed no greater protection than nature had given them. I can mention an instance to the contrary. Flour was imported last year from California and sold in Cariboo at ]irices with wbidi the upj)er country farmers could not compete. There ought to be some way of protecting Hie upper country l"arniers widioni clashing with Hie interests of the Dominion. I think it but just and riglit to protect the farmers above all other interests. I look upon this question as next to Responsible Government, and that I regard as the most important question in the Resolutions which are before the Council ; all others sink into insignificance besides these two conditions. 138 CONFEDERATIOX DEBATE. The Hon. COMMISSIONER OF CUSTOMvS— Notwithstanding that the Local Legislature after Confederation may not have a right to frame its own tariff, what we hope is, that the Canadian rarliameut will deem it desirable, for their own interests, that a special tariff should be framed for this part of the Dominion. There is no law against this. It would not be a differentia] duty; it cannot be objected to on this ground. Differential duties are where the same articles from two different countries are charged diflerently. If the Canadian tariff was applied here ta.xation would be lessened. We must not lose sight of that fact. It would prob- ably be lessened to the e.xtent of $100,000 a year. I have estimated the difference upon one quarter's revenue, and I believe the difference to be at least $20,000 for the quarter. For all that, I think the tariff should be changed. A special tariff is required. I mentioned yesterday horses and cattle. I thinli the $15 on a horse and $10 on cattle would be a great hardship on this Colony: it would amount to a prohibition. Last year 1.700 head of cattle were imported into this city ; are we prepared for the difference that the Canadian tariff" would make in this item? I think this large duty would be most obiectionable. With a tariff made especially to protect the farmers, over 40,000 pounds of butter were last year imported. If the Canadian tariff" of four cents a pound were api)lied, I do not know that nnich more could come in. I think that the farmers must have sold all they had. I think that advocates of protection do not apply the principles of protection to farmers of the upper country, but those of Vancouver Island. The farmers will feel the weight of the protecting tariff" without receiving any of its benefits. They will not feel the difference in the duty upon butter. I think that there will be a Treaty of Reciprocity between the United States and Canada, and I hope this Colony will particiiiate in it. It would be a great advantage, [Hear, hear.l I thin.k the opening of the I'nited States' markets to our lumber would more than counterbalance the loss of protection on produce. I don"t care for coal ; they take as much as we can supply. I would suggest that this Council should send forward to Government a recommendation that we believe a special tariff desirable, nay, almost imperative. I do not believe that our eight members in the House of Conunons, and four in the Senate, of Ottawa, will have' no weight ; if so, they had better come back. What in God's name good will they do? I think the question may be safely left to the Canadian Government and our representatives at Ottawa, Hon, Dr. HELMCKEN — With a view of bringing this to a vote. I will propose this recom- mendation: " That, in the opinion of this Council, it is highly desirable that the agricultural, horticultural, and dairy interests of British Columbia be protected." And I do this in order to divide the question into two parts. One Hon. Member wants the power of suiting the tariff' to our convenience: and more than one Hon. Member has said that Confederation nnist come. I deny it. There is no necessity that it should come now. If the people vote against Confedera- tion when the terms come before them, His Excellency will inform Her Majesty's Government that the people don't want it. Hon. ATTORNEY-GENERAL— AVe have always said so. Hon. CHIEF COMMISSIONER— I have so stated fifty times alread.v. Hon. Dr. HELMCKEN — I am glad it is so understood. The Hon. gentlemen must be very careful to make the terms suit; for if the terms don't suit the people we shall not have Con- federation. I say that the people have been seriously told that Confederation was to be the destiny of this Colon.v. ["No, no," from Messrs, DeCosmos and Barnard.] Efforts have been made to impress on the Colony that we must have Confederation on any terms, I do not con- sider that it is necessary for us to go in under the Organic Act, We did not expect to do it. To the Hon, Collector of Customs I would say, that nnich stress is laid upon the fact that under the Canadian tariff the people will save $100.000 ; that is, because the customs lose, the people save, I say this does not follow, Canadian goods don't come here now because they cannot compete. The only reason they will be used is, they will come in free, whilst others pay tariff. Possibly tlien the difference in i)rice between Canadian goods and our goods may be very little; the Government may lose, but the people won't gain. Do you understand that? ["No, no," from Ilaniley and others,] People may have to pay as much for Canadian goods as for American goods now. Hon, COMMISSIONER OF CUSTOMS — American goods would come in less the duty now paid. Don't you see? Hon. Mr, WOOD — The difference of transport would prevent Canadian manufactures from coming here cheaper. CONFEDEUATIOX DEBATE. 139 Hon. Dr. HELMCKEX — I say the tariff would be almost the same on these American goods then as now. I grant there will be a loss on agricultural produce. Hon. gentlemen say they may send agricultural produce. Butter. I believe, comes from cows; it costs money to buy a cow; there is the difference between raising agricultural produce and cattle. If butter could be grown from the ground I don't suppose that forty tons would have been imported. Farmers are poor ; they have not money to buy stock. Keep up protection and they will have money bye and bye to purchase cattle. Experience of the agriculturalists in this Colony has taught me that farmers with capital come out at the wrong end of the stick, whilst those who have gone in to work for themselves have made money. I know most of the farmers on Vancouver Island, and I find that those who began with nothing are doing well. The Hon. Collector of Customs said that farmers in the upper country don't require a tarifl'. I went into that (piestion yesterday. I think they will want it. Hous. CARRALL and BARNARD— Prices are getting too high now. Hon. Dk. HELilCKEN — It is exceeding easy and pleasant for us who want to eat to say prices are too high, but let any man go to work on a farm and he will have experience of the difficulties. The Hon. Collector of Customs says a treaty of reciprocity would be of great benefit, and that we might give up the farming interests of this Colony fot It. Now, Sir, this Council said last year, almost unanimously, that agricultural interests must be protected. Why should Hon. Members think that we should require anything different under Confederation? The Hon. Member for Victoria District almost led me the way in saying that irritation would arise which would lead to a desire for annexation If the agricultural interests were not protected. Hon. CHIEF COMMISSIONER— The interests we want to protect would be annihilated under Confederation. Hon. Db. HELMCKEN — I say what we want now is what we want under Confederation. Now, Sir, what have we been trying for? What has been our policy? Why, to protect industry. I am told that the Dominion Government will not admit any alteration in our tariff; and the example of the United States is cited. It has been said that California wanted to alter her tariff", and was not allowed to do so. I say. in reply, that California was one and a part of the United States. British Columbia is not yet Confederated, so we are still in a position to make terms. California would have made terms If she could, but could not; and It was for a time a question whether she should not secede. It was only large subsidies and steam communication that kept California In the Union. There is this peculiarity In the Organic Act, section 95 enables Canada to make different laws as to agriculture in each different Province. Hon. CHIEF COMMISSIONER— I don't think Ihat section applies to the tariff; it does not sound like it. Hon. Dr. HELMCKEN — Perhaps it does not, but I say that anything advantageous to the Colony may be enacted by the Local Government. We can ask for a separate tariff", and Canada has power to make different laws as to agriculture in each Province. Hon. ATTORNEY-GENERAL— No, that is a mistake. The 95th section weakens the Hon. Member's argument. Hon. Dr. HELMCKEN — I say it strengthens my argument. It does not mean merely that people may clean thistles out of their land. The simple issue is: Shall agricultural interests be protected or not? It is quite possible that those who regulate the treaty, when brought into contact with Canadian statesmen, may devise some means whereby this result may be eft'ected. I do not mean to give up to Canadian statesmen that they know more than ourselves about our local affairs; but I do think we may utilize their experience. I do not think that people, when they know that Confederation will not be forced uiioii them, will accept Confederation. The question for the farmers will be: Sliall agruiillure be protected or not? I ask again, is agriculture protected by the resolution or not? Hon. ATTOItNEY-GENERAL— It is not a fiiiic (/iia iion. Hon. CHIEF COMMISSIONER— I think the Idea to take a vote on protection to agriculture a good one, and I would rather that the resolution stopped there. Tbcu 1 would jiropose a further resolution. ])oiiiting out the difliculties and ills we labour under. Hon. Dr. HELMCKEX — I accept that alteralion. We shall by it ])rocure an exi»ression of the opinion of the Council upon this point. Hon. Mr. DeCOSMOS — I go further than that resolution. I stand here as a protectionist, and I want to see the manufacturing Interests protected as well as the agricultural interests. 140 Confederation Debate. Protection will lie a sine (jiia non witli my constituents. If the Hon. senior Member for Victoria will divide the question into agricultural interests, manufacturing interests, and trade, I will withdraw my reconunendation. I say that we want this question settled before Confederation. As for reciprocity, it lias, in my opinion, to he based on existing industry. The most important treaty of reciprocity was l)etween England and I'ortugal, under which English goods were admitted into Portugal and wines into England. Reciprocity to be successful must lie based on existing industries. If we enter into a treaty of reciprocity with the I'nited States, we must build up our industries, such as coal. I take it that what our coal has to contend with is foreign and native coal in the San Francisco and Portland markets. T'nless there is an extended market for coal it is impossible to increase the trade in it. Keciprocity would destroy the most per- manent interests; that, for instance, of agriculture, and we would gain nothing by it. I say if Canada thinks proper to negotiate a treaty of reciprocity with the T'nited States, we should be at liberty to negotiate a separate treaty, or to insert special clauses in the treaty. Hon. CHIEF COMIMJSSIONER— Let us clear the ground by getting the Chairman to put this resolution as an abstract proposition. The Chairman then i-ead the resolution as an abstract proiiosilion for the vote of the Couiii-il : — ■ " That in the opinion of this Council it is necessary that the agricultural, horticultural, and '■ dairy interests of British Columbia lie protected." Hon. CHIEF COMMISSIONER— Mr. Chairman. I am prepared to vote for that proposition, but I do not go quite to the extent of beliving it necessary, although I think it very desirable. I don't think it of such importance as the Hon. Members for Victoria City and District, as to make -it a vital question or a sine qua non of Confederation. I think it is desirable to continue protection under Confederation, and I do not see why we cannot. I think that the Dominion Government may, perhaps, be better able to provide the ways and means to effect that object than ourselves. We may not be able to provide a remedy, but we may advise. The i)rotectiou that we ask for only i)artially affects the community. It is patent that it only affects Vancouver Island and the Lower Eraser at this time. ["No, no," from Mr. DeCosmos.] I say that the fanners of the Interior have a geographical protection. The time is so distant when agricultural produce can come into the upper parts of British Columbia, or when the produce of the Upper Country can come into conqietition with the produce of the Island and of the Lower Fraser in these markets, without feeling the cost of transport as equivalent to a protective duty, that before that time arrives the tariff may be amended again and again. With regard to what has been said about the closer union with a foreign country. I said, and I i-epeat it, that if the interests of the farmers would be prejudiced under Confederation, they would be utterly annihilated under Annexation. I believe that if we were brought under the Dominion tariff" tliey would be injured. I did not say that the Dominion would not give us .separate tariff regulations. I think they will do so, but I say we have put ourselves out of a position to prescribe. We have imt liefore them a scheme, and we have left the tariff' out of the scheme. We can now point out that we want protection, and leave it for the Dominion Government to point out the means. We Iiave virtually put it out of our hands to dictate the means approved by this Council. I (aniiot agree in thinking that clau.se 91 leaves us free to impose our own tariff. I say we have made the British Noi-th America Act ajiply under the scheme which we have adopted under clause IG. lion. Mr. RING— I differ from that. Hon. CHIEF COMMISSK )NER— That is the whole strength of my argument. We have virtually given up the i)ower over the tariff' to Canada, but it is open to us, and the Council are invited to state what is wanted. It nnist be remembered that those terms are only memor- anda for Confech'raiion. Dilferent terms may be sent back, and it will be left for the new Council to decide upon them; and I. for one, am I'eady to suggest to the Canadian Government that we should have protection, although there are objections, for if you protect one interest another nnist suff'er. We pay for the protection of produce in the increased price of the articles we consume. I go to the length of thinking it desirable to recommend the Canadian Government to protect our agricultural interests. Hon. ATT(JRNEY-(JENERAL — I will ask the honourable mover of this recommendation whether he insists on the word "necessary"? Hon. Dr. HELMCKEN — I say this Is one of those things that under Confederation will lie necessary. Confederation Debate. l-il Hon. CHIEF COMMISSIOXKK— Will tlic Hon. Meinlier alter the word •' necessary " to " very desirable "? Hon. ATTORNEY-GENERAL — If you retain that word I must vote ajrainst it. Hon. Dr. HELMCKEN— I retain the word. Hon. Mr. ROBSON — "Highly desirable" would suit my views better. Hon. Mr. DeCOSMOS— I think the word ou^'ht to be retained. Hon. Mr. ALSTON — I believe all restrictions are false in principle, and Governments have no risht to travel out of their path to dictate principles. It has rightly been said that protection to a^rriculture is at the expense of other things, and it is simply ridiculous to say that agricul- tural interests ai"e the only interests in the Colony. A'ancouver Island cannot be looked upon as an agricultural country. I would A'ote for protection temporarily, but as soon as good roads are made the farmer needs no protection ; and. although free trade may be injurious to one interest, I believe it to be the correct principle. It strikes me that the Organic Act is a treaty of partnership between four countries, and where the terms are silent we can alter the Organic Act. If it be that we may make the laws, Canada still takes the revenue ; and unless the resolution is altered I cannot vote for it. Hon. CHIEF COMMISSIONER— I may clear the ground if I make a suggestion. I think it would be better to take the subjects separately, and then I would embody the whole matter in one Resolution to His Excellency. Hon. Mr. WOOD — It would be desirable to have as unanimous a vote as possible. The Hon. Chief Commissioner and the Hon. Mr. Alston have said that a tax on produce would be likely to prove injurious. I say that protection is only to be extended until our agriculturalists can compete with the farmers on the opposite shore. If i*eciprocity eventually arise, I do not pledge myself to support protection. It may be necessary then to make some compensation to farmers, but I cannot say I would support it. Hon. Mr. DeCOSMOS — We want a positive guarantee for protection. Hon. CHIEF COMMISSIONER moved an amendment to change the word "necessary"' to " highly desirable." The reconnnendation, as amended, was carried. Hon. Mr. DeCOSMOS moved a Resolution, " That it is highly desirable that manufactured articles should be protected." Hon. CHIEF COMMISSIONER— I would ask the Hon. Memlier to define " manufactured articles." Hon. ^Ir. DeCOSMOS — I would name boots and shoes. Now. in event of any reciprocity treaty, I should like to see our interests protected. A reciprocity treaty may exert a stimulating influence for a time, or it may be detrimental. We have confectionery and many other things ; for instance, there is a proposition to erect a woollen manufactory. Furniture, at present, all comes from the T'nited States. Our cabinet-makers could manufacture it here if they could import the raw material free. The same could be said of wheelwrights. If we are to have large public works we must have these interests jtrotected. Harness may be brought in cheap under reciprocity; leather and soap likewise. I start out on this principle: if we can keep our manufactures at home we are doing our duty. Hon. Mr. BARNARD — The Canadian tariff applies to all the articles mentioncul by the Hon. gentleman. I am mystified in regard to this protection. He says he wants protection for leather, and boots, and harness. Twenty per cent, is our tariff on waggons, and yet no class of waggons, such as is wanted, can be made here. Hon. Mr. DeCOSMOS— We shall never have producing manufacturers if w(> do not protiut them. AVitli regard to waggon building: ])arties now engaged in the business were about to leave until the taritf was introduced. Competition lowers tlu> price (_)f home-manufactured articles. •Hon. Dr. HELMCKEN — I shall support this RcsoUitidU ; the Caiiiulian tai-ilT to some measure meets it. Hon. ATT0RNEY-GENERA7.— I shall ask to have the w(.rds alteri'd. Hon. Dr. HELiNICKEN — Presently we shall have to protect I'.rilisli Columbian interests against Canadian interests. If the farmer and boot-maker are protected, other local manufac- tures nnist be protected also. Wliere you do not produce things admit them free. It is our duty to protect our own interests. 142 Confederation Debate. Hon. Mr. BARNARD — And turn people out of the country. Hon. Dr. ITELMC'KKN — You koop them in. You send out $100,000 a (luarter for goods, which ought to he spent here. That $100,000 ought to he invested in mines and in huihling up the country. Now, you want this country to he a garden and a manufactory. The people must do it, and it is the only way in which they can do it. Put your productions into competition with the whole world and you will ruin the producers throughout the whole Colony. Hon. CHIEF COMMISSIONI<]R — Another question is, up to what point are you to protect? What is the use of in-otecting produce if you protect colonists out of the country? I put this as an ahstract proposition. There is no more moot point than the difference hetween free trade and protection. I see the Canadian tariff protects these things, and I don't feel inclined to ask for more. Tnder the Canadian tariff agricultural products are almost free, hut manufactures are protected. I don't intend to assume that the tariff will he taken off — that protection is to he taken away from manufacturers, for. if so. it will he against the arguments of the memhers from British Columhia. Hon. Mr. ROBSON — Some memhers are growing protection mad. They want to huild a wall around the Colony and keep out the entire world. You must come down to first principles. When honourable memhers talk about protection, I suppose we intend to protect that which we can produce. Are we to ])rotect so as to force people into branches of industry untliought of before? Some honoural)le members have run to the extent of ])rotecting population out of the Colony; another favours protection in order to keep prices low, and thus to secure our population. I maintain that protection has run too far, and the agriculturists have not benefited by it. [" No, no " — Mr. DeCosmos.] They tell me that the demand is so small that prices are less. I am not in favour of withdrawing protection from farmers, but let us see • that it does not go too far. Hon. Mr. WOOD — Might I not turn the tables by judging some honourable members are free trade mad. No one ever dreamt of such high taxation. So far from sweeping off popula- tion we secure it; and in England free trade is intended to benefit tlie manufacturer, and it does so. It struck a blow at agriculture, and if they had not gone into raising and spending more money it would have lieen an utter failure. High price for corn is now unknown, but free trade by way of dogma is absurd. Hon. :Mr. DeCOSMOS — There is a distinction lietween a tariff" for protection and a prohibi- tory tariff. The Hon. Collector of Customs will set me right, if I am mistaken, but I believe the importation of arms from foreign countries into a Colony is prohibited. Hon. COLLECTOR OF CUSTOMS— Prohibited, I believe, altogether. Hon. Mr. DeCOSMOS — Precisely so ; that the defence of the Colony may never depend on foreign aid. The Hon. Chief Commissioner asked the extent of the protection. I say during the infancy of the Colony. When we are able to run alone, protection will be necessary. With regard to farmers wanting free trade. I deny it em]»hatically. Hon. Dr. HELMCKEN — No doubt the Canadian Government will like this amendment of the taiift'. Hon. ATTORNEY-GENERAL— I sliall vote against it because it says it is expedient to arrange it in the terms. If the Hon. Member alters the wording it would then become on the same footing as the last recommendation. Hon. Mr. DeCOSMOS altered the wording accordingly, and on A-ote the motion was lost. The motion of Hon. Dr. Helmcken was put and carried. Thursday, 24th March, 1870. On the House going into Committee of the Whole on the Confederation Resolution, Mr. DeCOSMOS moved tlie following resolution : — " That in the opinion of this Council it is expedient, in order to foster commerce, to admit, duty free, into this Colony or some portions thereof, certain articles of foreign merchandise not produced in the Dominion or this Colony, and that provision for the admission of the same be made in the terms of I'nion with Canada." In reply to a question the Hon. mover said it would be impossible to name all the articles; but a few of them might be instanced, such as tropical fruits, silks, and English dry Confederation Deliate. 143 goods ; he thought this the proper time to bring these matters to the attention of the Dominion Government, believing that they would listen to them. Some discussion ensued as to the mode in which the different reconunendations and resolutions were to be taken up. The Hon. ATTORNEY-GENEKAL called Hon. Members' attention to the fact, that it had been agreed by the House that an expression of opinion on these general principles, namely, as to the protection of agriculture, of manufactures, and of conunerce. should be taken, and that, as had been very properly suggested by the Member for \'ictoria District, a general resolution should be framed on these alistract views. Hon. Mr. ROBSOX— I shall offer an amendment, because I think the question of free port and protection should not be dealt with together. Hon. ATTORNEY-GENERAL— The proposition of the Hon. Member for Victoria District is as to what shall be admitted free ; the Hon. Member for New Westminster proposes to suspend the whole tariff. Hon. Mr. ROBSON — I stated one reason why I thought it not desiral)le to put the two together. You cannot get the control of the tariff'. I say we want free trade in certain articles, and I say we must have the tariff" entirely re-modelled as to these articles. My difficulty is that we were last eA'ening discussing protection, and how far we should have the power to deal with it. I moved an amendment which was, I think, the only constitutional way of dealing with the question, and in answering certain propositions of. Hon. gentlemen yesterday, I endeavoured to deal with protection, per se. I listened with interest to what fell from the Hon. Commissioner of Customs, and I do not like to set my opinion against his on matters of this kind, on which I know he is an authority, especially when I find him backed by the Hon, Attoi-ney-General and Chief Commissioner of Lauds and Works. I instanced the United States of America, and said that they are a living instance of non-separation of tariff'. The Hon. Commissioner of Customs did not go so far as to say we could frame a tariff' for ourselves, but that the Dominion Govern- ment would frame it for us. Now, Sir, I say that we must not run away with any such idea. If we were allowed to have a different scheme of revenue, Newfoundland would ask the same; New Bruiaswick, Prince Edward Island and other Provinces would all ask for exceptional tariffs, and the Federal fiscal policy would be broken up and destroyed. Depend upon it we ought not to run away with such an idea. The Dominion Government cannot admit of exceptional or differential tariff's any more than the United States can do so. Some Hon. Members say that we are not under the Organic Act, and need not be under it, unless we choose; that there is a distinction between the relations of the Provinces that were Confederated under the Act and those that may hereafter come in, and that we can change the Organic Act if we think proper. I admit that any Province not prepared to come in under the Organic Act can stay out. The Act is not binding on us now, but it will be if we go into the Dominion. I am surprised to hear some Hon. Members speaking lightly of a reciprocity treaty. Look at the single item of coal. We at present only send 18,000 tons per annum to San Francisco. I have no doubt that under a reciprocity treaty, we should supply them with 50,000 tons a year at least, to say nothing of anthracite coal. In the course of a few years, allowing time for trade to develop itself, this would bring in $900,000 or, say, one million dollars a year into the Colony. JNIr. Chairman, we are now speaking of a single item, and that, I believe, not the largest, which would bring in one million a year, and that calculation is based upon the present consumption of coal in San Francisco, and the consumption will no doubt increase. In addition to this, look at the (luantity of shipping, and the cheap commodities which these ships bring in, which could hardly be brought as a measure of conunerce. There are objectors to reciprocity. No doubt it would be very nice if we could open the United States ports to our goods, and close our ports to their goods. But this would not be reciprocity. There is, in my opinion, only one answer to be given. I say. give the farmers good roads, and this will be protection for them. Now, Sir. what does tlie development of our coal interests mean? It means extension of labour, and circulation of money. Farmers have at once a full demand for their produce. Apply the same argument to lumber. Its development would cause more money to be expended in the Colony. Every ton of coal brought to the l)ank, and every tree cut down, means spending of money. There, then, is another field opened up for what farmers have to .sell. (Jive the farmers this development and good roads, and they would soon find out that reciprocity would be like the handle of a jug, on the side of British Columbia. Depend upon it we will come in under the reciprocity treaty, and the advantages will be so great on our side tliat it will hardly be reciprocity. Nothing can be more unfair than to suppose we are to have a free market in the United States and they have none here. 144 Confederation Debate. Hon. COLLECTOR OF CUSTOMS asked if Hon. Mr. Kobson had any resolution to propose. Hon. ^Ik. IiOKSOX said tliat at present lie was replying to remarks that had been made l)y other Hon. ^'entlemen. Hon. ATTOKXEY-GKXERAL said that the course that the Hon. gentleman was pursuing was embarrassing, and would tend to complicate the (piestion before the House, and proceeded to correct a statement which he understood Hon. Mr. Kobson to have made as to what had fallen from the Hon. Chief Conuuissioner, Hon. Mr. Haniley. and himself on a previous occasion as to the right to control tariff being in the Provinces after Union. Hon. Mr. DeCOSMOS — Anyone who knows the history of the United States knows that if any question of dealing with the tariff law in any manner other than Federal could arise, it would be in reference to groups of States instead of single States. I say, then, that we must consider this as a group of Provinces of the Dominion. Many years will probably not elapse before we see groups of States distinguished as Pacific and Atlantic, or lOast and West, and North and South, in the neighbouring Republic. Hon. Mr. ROBSON — 1 rise to move a resolution. It is the same as that proposed at the Yale Convention by the Hon. Mend)er for Victoria District, in ISOT. Hon. Dr. HEL.AICKEN and ATTORNEY-GENEliAL— What Convention? We know of no Convention. Hon. Mr. ROBSOX — I have a perfect right to allude to what took place at the little Parliament at Yale. I believe this to be the proper way to approach the subject. The resolution which I propose is as follows : — ■' That a respectful Address be presented to His Excellency the Governor recommending that the following may be included in the conditions of the proposed terms of I'nion with Canada: ' U at any time after the admission, the Legislature of British Columbia shall pass an Address to the (Jovernor-General of Canada declaring that it is expedient to establish a free port on the Pacific in order to advance the interests of British commerce in tlie North Pacific, the Parliament of the Dominion to make provision for the establishment of the same.' " It is astonishing to find what a change has come over the Hon. Mr. DeCosmos since he changed his city seat for a rural seat. He is becoming less capable of taki.ig a statesmanlike view of these things than he was two years ago. I think by providing that if the new Council shall, after due deliberation, find it desirable, that a free port shall be established in this Colony is, after all, the proper way. I cannot think that this House, with the small representative element that it has, should be asked to decide this point. I say that the tendency of the Canadian policy is in the direction of free trade. [No, no, from the Hon. Mr. DeCosmos.l I say it is, and there is a speech of Sir G. E. Cartier recently published, in which he says that the tendency of Canadian policy is towards free trade. Now, I believe, that a great British Empire is to be established on this Continent, — the Greater Britain ; and I believe that all P>ritish manufactures will be admitted free. If Great Britain takes her true part iu pushing forward this Empire, she will naturally expect some advantages; she will naturally look for some inunediate financial result. Every unproductive labourer in England is a tax upon the others; but transfer them to the Dominion and they will become producers and consumers. I believe it to be of the first importance that there should be a free port here. By a free port I do not mean that everything should necessarily be admitted free. There is no i-eason why local industries, and especially agricultural interests, should not continue to enjoy substantial protection. I believe the Canadian Government will readily realize the advantages of the policy of having a free port on the Pacific. There could be no local jealousies growing out of it. The I'l-ovinces on the Atlantic could not object. Our free port would attract couunerce and wealth to the nation which they could not possibly attract, and thus enrich the nation and refiexiy beJiefit all. I maintain that while the larger advantages would be local, the general advantages would be very considerable. I was gratified in reading a leading article in the Ottaicd Times, the organ of the Dominion Goveriunent, in which the theory of a free port for the Dominion on the I'acitic is strongly and ably adsocated ; and this article forms a complete answer to those who allege that the Canadian statesnieu would never listen to any such propo- sition. If it should be decided that a free port would conduce to the interest of the Province and. consequently, to the interest of the Dominion, why should not we have it? Why should we object? What more glorious idea can there be than iliat of a British Empire extending across the Continent, with its back to the North I'ole, with its face looking Southward, I will not venture to say how far; with one foot planted on the Atlantic and the other on the Pacific, Confederation Debate, 145 stretchiug out one hand to Europe and the other to Asia, and inviting the commerce of both hemispheres to enter its wide open portals, free as the wind that fills the canvas. Depend upon it. Sir, if this is to be the true north-west passage, the gates must be thrown open. Let us not repel commerce, but woo it. I venture to think that the resolution whicla I have the honour to offer proposes to deal with the matter in the most statesmanlike way; and I trust it will com- mend itself to the judgment, and receive the support, of all parties in the House. Hon. Mr. HOLBROOK. whilst believing that the establishment of a free port at Victoria might be beneficial to the interests of the Lower Fraser. did not think it would be for the general good of the Colony. In his opinion the agricultural interests wanted protection. For the present he must vote against the Hon. Member for New Westminster. He thought that such questions ought to be left to the Dominion Government. Hon. Mr. DeCOSMOS — After the very, I will not say unusual, but unexpected, remarks in reference to myself, T must crave the indulgence of the House whilst I say a few words to set myself right. Sir, I had something to do with the Yale Convention, and I am not ashamed of my connection with it ; my political standard was unfurled then as it is to-day. When I first entered upon politics in tliis country I established a high political standard, which would take the measure of a political trickster as well as that of a statesman. There is nothing in the conduct of the hon. member for New Westminster either here or at Yale to entitle him to the name of statesman. I say, Sir, that I am as free as I was at Yale to vote for that clause, and if it can be got into the terms I will vote for it. I brought the question up at Yale because I knew that there was a party in Victoria favourable to free port, and I wished to see the question fought out after Confederation, not before. The Hon. gentleman was defeated ; he could not get the Yale Convention to endorse the retaining of the Assay Office at New Westminster, and he took his defeat very much to heart. [Hon. Mr. Robson — Untrue, untrue.] The Hon. Member for Yale came to me and said: — " You concede this point as to the Assay Office and I will yield the free port. We don't want Mr. Robson to leave." That's how it came to be in the Yale resolu- tions. Since to this Colony I came, I have never swerved from protection. In the first article I wrote for a newspaper in this Colony the word " protection " occurs. I want to see the Canadian revenue laws extended here ; I want to see power in the Local Government to px'otect the indus- trial interests of the Colony. I would like to know who has changed the Hon. gentleman's opinions. I spent my time and money in getting protection. I challenged a gentleman on the floor of this House to retire, and I did retire ; I hoisted the flag of protection and won. Hon. Mr. BARNARD — I wish to state that what the Hon. gentleman said was true, except that he mistook the Hon. Mr. Robson for Hon. Mr. Holbrook. Hon. Dr. HELilCKEN — We are here to remedy evils likely to occur from Confederation, evils which are admitted by every member of this Council. That there is an evil even the Hon. Member for New Westminster has admitted. [Hon. Mr. Robson — No.] The Hon. gentle- man makes his net so wide that he slips through; hut he said in effect that the difficulty was irremediable, and to get out of it he proposes not general free trade, but free trade in certain special articles. If the Canadian Government can agree to one they can to the other. I believe that if we show the Canadian Government that the Canadian tariff would be an evil they will find means to remove the evil. I believe a tariff" fair and suitable to this Colony will be made. I believe we have gone so far right; we have resolved that our agriculture shall be protected. Now comes the question as to conunerce. We want articles of commerce as cheap as possible : our trade is chiefly retail, nevertheless it is important, and should be fostered. I think that everything we can do to increase the population of this country is of importance. I therefore propose this resolution : — "That in the opinion of this Council it is advisable that after T'nion foreign manufactured " articles in which trade can be carried on with neighbouring countries shall be admitted into "this Colony at a low nominal rate of duty, and generally the tariff should be made to suit " the commercial condition of the Colony." I think free trade in Vancouver Island would lie beneficial with protection to agricultur- alists, but I do not think it desirable, except in a liuiited way. Does any one imagine that if free port was restored to Victoria her prosperity would return? In more early days, when she enjoyed free port, there were not the obstructions to free trade with the neighbouring country that there are at present. Now there are Custom House officers to prevent smuggling, and a great deal of illicit trade is checked. With regard to free trade: In former days we were far 10 14G COXFEDEUATIOX DeI'.ATE. more advanced thau the iK^oi»le on the Sound : to-day. on the Sound, trade has so far increased as to he almost eijuall.v as sood, and I am told you can buy goods ahnost as cheaply as in Victoria, so I do not believe free i)ort would restore our pristine prosperity. T'nder free trade it is supposed that large stocks of goods will come hy Panama, or by long sea route. But look at the altered condition of things resulting from the Pacific Railway, and the railway to Columbia River, and probably on to Paget Sound. Do yon imagine anyone will send large stocks of goods to lie here? and will not people telegnipb I'nr whatever they may require, and bring them across the continent by railway'.' I say that the same pros])erity and trade that we enjoyed before would not come back. We are told that when the railway is made Asiatic trade will come across, but I doubt the railway being made in our time, and. if it is, ships will go wherever the railway terminus is, and that will not be here. It would be an advan- tage, to have some articles free, silks, trie tracs, &c. Make Victoria the Paris of the Coast and we may do something. And this brings me to the observation of my Hon. friend on my right, that more fretiuent steam communication with the Sound would be productive of much good to trade. What I want to s.iy is that the persons going to negotiate these terms ought to be able to state that this Colony n^iuires restrictions in the tariff. I do not intend to be factious, but I do intend to show to the Canadian Government what we consider best for this country, and that without certain terms we believe (Confederation will be bad. What use is it to attempt to deceive Canada V She knows what is being done, and if not, there are those here Avho would ti'll her. It is our duty to show the Canadian Government that there are things we desire. Of what use is the country to Canada unless it is populatedV She wants people, not terms. We must show what will be the advantages of Confederation. If the tariff of the Dominion must come here it will be unsuitable to us — an admitted evil. If this cannot be I'emedied. Confederation is likely to be put oft" for years. I merely mean to elicit the feeling of this House on the suliject of whether we can take oft" certain duties. If commerce can be prot(K!tetl in the way we desire, as we shall see when the i)ersons who go to arrange the terms come back, then it will be no use to oppose Confederation. If the evil is still to exist, then there will he opi)ositlon. Hon. Dk. CARRALL — I shall vote against the Ifesolutiou. With regard to free port, I do not say I am opposed to it or in favour of it; but I do say that the Canadians will say if we pass this Re.solution. "What kind of people are these that passed a Resolution yesterday in favour of protection, and to-day desire fi'ee port?" The Hon. Member for Victoria City proved forcibly, I will not say conclusively, that free port would not be beneficial. His reason- ing is consistent ; and it is eminently characteristic of the honourable gentleman. Hon. Dr. HELMCKEX — I desire to explain the terms of my Resolution — the latter part. If the Canadian tarift" rules our farmers are ruined. Hon. Di!. CARRALL — A'ancouver Island can never be an agricultural country. Hon. Dk. HELMCKEX — Bring the Canadian tariff' here and you take away protection and tax the farmers for all they consume. Hon. COMMISSIONER OF CUSTOMS— A free port is an impossibility, unless the English Parliament repeal the Act of I'nion. This Act enacts that British Columbia tariff laws shall prevail. Hon. Dii. HELMCKE.X — I believe a free port could be carried on if you could wall in an acre or two of this city, and not do any injury to manufacturing interests, or any other interests. I mean to say that u])on that acre iieople might expose their goods — make it one large bonded warehouse. Hon. Dk. C.VRRALIi — We have heard of the ])ernicious effects in prospective of the Canadian tariff". I maintain that it will protect the principal, that is the pastoral, interests bettei" than what is proposed by some honoural)le members. The admission of cereals free will be counter- balancetl by the additional protection afforded to the farmers' horses and cattle, and the cheaper rate for goods. Hon. ATTORXEY-GEXEKAL — I wished to gather the opinion of the House before express- ing my o|tinion on this (inestion. I regret nnich. and am sure that this House will join me in a feeling of regret, that my honourable colleague, the Chief Commissioner of Lands and Woi'ks, is. unfortunately, absent fi-om his place on account of indisposition, for I am aware that this is a subject to which he has given much consideration, and I would have been glad that the House should have had the benefit of his opinion on this very serious question, for it is COXFEDERATIOX DEBATE. 147 impossible to approacli tlio subject without feeling its vital importance: and I think it would tax oui" united will and ener.iry to their utmost limits, if we had the power to frame a tariff which would be suitable: therefore. I see. wisel.v. in all the Resolutions a wide generalit.v. Upon this question of tariff we must especially avoid attempting to commit the Dominion Government to any fi.xed principle. The tariff cannot be part of the terms. Init it is. luidoubt- edly. a matter of consideration to l)e urged on the Canadian Government. Though we have assented to the Organic Act. we have not shut ourselves out from going to the Dominion I'arliameut to ask for remedies which they can give to us. and to ask them to find a remedy which will make Confederation acceptalile to this Colony. Therefore. I think, with the Honour- able Chief Commissioner, that one general Resolution upon this subject, after dealing with the three separate Resolutions or abstract principles, ma.v, with advantage, be passed by this Hou.se. I think also, with that honourable gentleman. Mr. Chairman, that Canadian statesmen w'ho will have to deal with this matter, will do so with wisdom. They, in considering the term.s when other Provinces have entered the Confederation, must have experienced some of these difHeulties which now come to us for the first time. No doubt many honourable members of this House have given great consideration to this question, yet I think that Canadian experience wiW help us. Much has been said on free port — much for and against. My own tendencies, since first I had a seat on this floor, in another Assembly, have been in favour of free port. I voted for it then, ibut I feel that I am obliged to vote against it now. The Imperial Government will not sanction anything which is in effect a differential duty in the .same tariff': but this is distinct from the iiuestion of a separate tariff' for British Columltia. Other considerations will naturally strike Canada, and I think if free port was made a sine qua nou she would refuse Confederation altogether, as she would not like to run the risk of entering into difficulties and disputes of a fiscal character with her great and powerful neighbour, which might possibly arise out of snuiggling. Another difficulty in dealing with this matter that we have to encounter is, that we have information that a reconstruction of the Canadian tariff' is at present going on. and there is some chance of a reciprocity treaty l)eing arranged, therefore we cannot put forward any fixed principles. The main objections of the Dominion to a separate tariff, it strikes me. will be found to be: first, that they are afraid of infringing principle: and, second, the formation of a precedent for a special tariff', which might cause Newfoundland, New Brunswick. Nova Scotia, and other Provinces to ask for special tariffs to suit their par- ticular circumstances, and to avoid the inconvenience of possible hostile tariffs. There are certaiuly many plausible reasons to be found in favour of a special tariff for British Columbia. Such as the difficulty of communication, the want of either road or railway, and the security against smuggling into Canada. But the probability is, that protection to commerce would be secured by the reconstruction of the Canadian tariff, and I regard the framing of a tariff now which would apply satisfactorily to our altered circumstances, under such a thorough change as Confederation would bring, as a matter of impossibility. Formerly, when there was a free port at Victoria, it was always in danger, and the Hon. Senior Member for Victoria City, then the Speaker of the Vancouver Island House of Assembly, was always afraid of every little impost on stock or produce lest it should infringe ui)on the principle of free trade, and at last it was so loaded with dues and charges that before the Uuiou the principle of free port was destroyed. But I see no reason why. when we are going into a partnership, we should not arrange the best terms we can : and I think that the differences could be altered in favour of this Colony, and in favour of Confederation generally. We have no power ourselves; that is the reason this (iue«tion is not brought up in the terms. We nmst see what effect I'liion will have on this Colony first; we nmst see how the thing works before we di'cide finally. At the same time, we must take care that we protect such important interests as agriculture and commerce from haste or injurious delay. I will, therefore, as soon as the terms are settled. ])ropose a resolution which will meet this difficulty and give time, to see what change, if any. the ccniiilry may n'i|uii-c. In sending our ri'soiutions to the C.-inadian Government, we must not suppose that we have exhausted the subject. Many points must arise when the Canadian Commissioners come here, or ours go there — if the matter take that turn; Imt we should be careful nut to overload the terms, lest we should endanger the cause of Confederation altogether. We nuist have some faith in the Dominion Government — iu Canada and Canadian statesmen. We nmst not forget that their own interests would be ours. I sav nothing with regard to the latter part of the resolution of the Hon. Member for Victoria 148 Confederation Debate, City, except that it does not accord with his usual statesmanlike views. I shall offer no opposition to the latter part of the resolution of the Hon. ^lember. but I cannot support the whole. If anyone will move an amendment to leave out the latter part. I will supiwrt it. Hon. Mb. DeCOSMOS — We have three propositions now before the House — my own. and those of the Hon. Members for Victoria and New "Westminster. The former divides the subject. I think they would lioth act judiciously if they withdrew the (luestion of free port. Hon. DiJ. CARRALL moved an amendim'ut to strike out the latter part of the resolution of the Hon. Member for Victoria. Hon. Mr. RING sujisested that the amendment should be deferred. These amendments so qualify the jieneral principles that I must decline voting for any one of them. Hon. Mr. "WOOD — Sir. I do not intend to express my opinion on free trade or protection, but I intend to vote; and I think my Hon. friend (Mr. Ring) might consider that he is not pledged to any particular course by his vote. I give my vote in order that the question may be brought before the Canadian Government, and ultimately before the people of this Colony. Hon. Mr. RIN(i — I have great respect for the opinion of the Hon. and learned gentleman ; but the resolution of the Hon. ]Member for New "Westminster pledges us to the Organic Act. which 1 decline to endorse. "We are entitled to our own free port and to the regulation of our own tariff. Hon. Mr. ROBSON— T hope the Hon. Member will remain while I set him right. My resolution only asks that a Rei>resentative Council here, after due deliberation, shall have power to decide upon this question. I consider that the name of free port is attractive; this, under the resolution of the Hon. Member for Victoria District, we should lose. "W^e must not regard the Canadian tariff" as entirely unprotective. It is wrong, it is untrue, to state that the Canadian tariff is such a great evil, and I maintain that it would not be an evil, but an actual good ; but that is no reason we should not seek to make it a greater good. The Clerk read the resolution of Hon. DeCosnios. the amendment of Hon. Robson. the amendment of Hon. Dr. Helmcken, and the amendment of Hon. Dr. Carrall. By the leave of the Committee, the amendment of the Hon. ]Mr. Robson was withdrawn, in order that it might be brought up as a substantive motion. On a division, the motion of Hon. Dr. Carrall was carried, and the original resolution of Mr. DeCosmos was lost. The Hon. Mr. Robson then moved his resolution, to which the Hon. Mr. Humphreys moved an amendment. Amendment and resolution were lost. Hon. Mr. DRAKE — Sir, I rise to move this resolution on Excise: — " That in the opinion of this Council, the duties of excise levied upon maltsters and "brewers under the Excise I^ws of Canada would be detrimental if made applicable to British " Columbia, and that His Excellency be retpiested to take such steps as he may deem advisable " for the interest of this Colony, and further to take care that no export duties shall be charged '• on spars exported from British Columbia." And I would remark, in doing so. that excise, as levied under the Canadian system, is very heavy indeed: there is duty, licence, and excise. The result would be to the brewing interests, in all probability, total extinction; for on an increasing trade the duty would be so high as to check trade in this direction. The other part of the resolution is in respect to logs, the duty on which is $1 per thou.sand on saw-logs ; but whether a spar or a mast, it is regarded still as a log. Thus the Canadian tariff would seriously interfere with our industry, and inter- fere with getting out masts and spars. Hon. Dr. CARRAIJ^-I think the Hon. and learned Member for Victoria City is under a misapprehension when he includes spars with logs. If "logs'" refers simply to saw-logs, I cannot see that the spar business would be att"ected. Hon. ATTOI{Nl-:Y-(;r:NERAL— I must confess. Sir, that I do not see the object of this clause. I don't think there is any need for alarm. I have lived for some years in Canada, and when I think of the Canadian statesmen, who will look at British Colum))ia without regard to party politics— such men, for instance, as Sir J. A. Macdouald, Sir Francis Hincks, Sir A. T. Gait, Mr. George Bro\\ni. and the various statesmen accustomed to deal with these things— I feel confident that we are safe in their hands; therefore, I hope that the Hon. and learned Member will not imagine that, in voting against this motion, we are voting against the interests he so properly wishes to protect. Confederation Debate. 149 Hon. Mr. RING — The Hon. Attorney-General seems to think that these honourable men may live forever. He forj^ets that in the progress of time other men will take the lead hi public affairs. Hon. Dr. HELMCKEX — It is a most important question. The Canadian Government ought to know what we think of it. The brewing? interest would disappear, and it is large in proportion to our population, and to ruin it would be doing an injury. I hope the Hon. Attorney-General will withdraw his opposition and let this recommendation go Avith the others to the Governor, that he may forward it with them to the Canadian Government. At the time the Organic Act was made it related to contiguous Provinces. The Hon. Attorney-General says they may not put it in force here for ten. twenty, or thirty years. Granted, but it may also be put in force immediately. I say, then, let the Canadian Government be made aware that the application of the excise laws to this Colony will be detrimental to its interests. Hon. Dr. CARRALL — I think the Hon. Member loses sight of one fact. He is terribly afraid of the Canadian tariff, but he loses sight of the fact that barley comes in duty free. I believe the whole system will be carefully revised, and it is absurd to hamper the terms of the resolution for such a petty question. Hon. Mr. DRAKE — In reply, I think our duty in coming here is to protect the interests of the Colony. We ask the Dominion Government to consider these things. "We do not insist on terms being inserted. I do not ask for this only ; I desire to draw the attention of the Canadian Government to these interests that they may not be overlooked. As to these interests being petty and small, that is our misfortune ; but let us not lose sight of them for that reason. As for Americans coming here to cut down our logs, I say let them come. If I can alter my resolution to suit the Attorney-General, I will do it. Hon. ATTORNEY-GENERAL— If I thought the interests of the Colony would suffer, I would consent to bring the subject before the Canadian Government, but I think we have nothing to fear. Hon. Dr. HELMCKEN — If you ruin the ibrewing interest, you inflict much harm in other ways. Brewers consume one million pounds of barley yearly. This is 700 acres of land which must ibe cultivated. To ruin this will throw out of employment a large number of people and close up our breweries. Hon. Mr. DeC08M0S — I see no ol)jection to sending this up. but not to make it a sine qua nan. I believe the Canadian Government will protect all these interests. Brewing is not of sufficient magnitude to kill Confederation. Hon. Mr. ROBSON — I must oppose if logs are left in. I think it may be our duty to protect spars and logs. Hon. Mr. DRAKE — Then I will strike out logs and leave spars. The Clerk then read Hon. Mr. Drake's motion, as altered. Carried. Hon. Dr. HELMCKEN — There are other things to be considered. Hon. ATTORNEY-(tENERAL — I think it is now competent for me to move the resolution proposed by the Hon. Chief Connnissioner. Hon. Mr. ROBSON— Is it intended that this shall swamp all the others? Hon. ATTORNEY-GENERAL— No ; it relates only to tariff: — "Resolved, That this Council respectfully represent to His Excellency the Governor that, "in negotiating the terms of union of British Columbia with Canada, it is of the first import- " ance to jioiiit out to the (Jovernment of the Dominion that the circumstances of this Colony " are in many respects so different from those of the Eastern Provinces that the application of "the present Canadian Tariff" to this Colony, while reducing the aggregate burden of taxation, "would injuriously aft'ect the agricultural and connnercial interests of this connnunity. and "that it be therefore urgently impressed upon that (Jovernment that it is absolutely necessary " to our wellbeing under Confederation that special rates of Customs duties and special " Customs regulations be arranged for this Colony, in such manner as may be found i)ractically "most advisable, so as to secure, while our ve(iuireiiieiits in this respect remain as at present, "an equal measure of protection to our agricultural products and of facility to commerce, as " are provided under the existing British Columbia Tariff." The resolution was carried unanimously. The original motion of the Hon. Mr. DeCosmos, on the Orders of the Day, was read, and by leave withdrawn. 150 Confederation Debate. Hon. Mr. Drake'.s motion wa.s also withdrawn. Hon. Mr. Holbroolc's motion wa.s put and lost. Hon. Mr. Kobson's motion was put and lost. • Hon. Mr. HUMrnUEYS moved:— "That in the consideration of the snl)sidies to he given by Canada to this Colony, due "weight shall be given to the advisability of abolishing the present road tolls on the Yale- " Cariboo road, and also to make i»rovision for funds to keep the same in repair." I put this in constMiuence of the suggestions thrown out by the Hon. Chief Commissioner. I think these road tolls have done more towards making bankrupts than any over-trading. They are main trunk roads, and I think they ought to be kept up ll)y the Dominion Government. Hon. ATTOKXFA'-CJKNKUAL— I am not aware that that is the result of a suggestion of the Hon. Chief Connnissioner. I am aware of his views, and I believe he has doubts as to whether roads can be maintained by a Government so far removed as Canada. Hon. .Mr. BAKNAKI) — I would suggest that this be laid over till the Hon. Chief Commis- sioner be here. Hon. ATTOKNEY-GEXEKAL — The Hon. Chief Commissioner would not object to any conclusion of the House on this matter. But I caution Hon. Members not, by the addition of these suggesticms, so to overload the resolutions as to break down the whole of them. Hon. Mr. BAKNARD — I move that the Committee rise and report progress, in order that the matter may be laid over until the Hon. Chief Commissioner is in his place. Committee rose and reported progress. Friday, March 25th, 1870. Oil Mr. IIunii»hreys" motion on roads being read, the Hon. Attorney-General said: — I regret to say that my honourable colleague, the Chief Connnissioner of Lands and Works?, is still too much indisiiosed to attend to his place in this House. I would, therefore, suggest that the Honourahle Member should postpone his notice until he is present. Hon. Mr. HUMl'IHtEYS — 1 have no objection to defer it. on the understanding that it comes up on Monday. Hon. ATTORNEY-GENERAL— On Monday, or this day. if the Committee get through with their other motions on Confederation. Hon. Mr. RIN(; — I desire to introduce a motion with regard to free port, but I do not intend to inflict upon the House a speech. I move that His Excellency be respectfully requested to place in the terms a cl.inst' to restore to Victoria the system of free port antecedent to Confederation. The Honourable Member for New Westminster was indignant with me yester- day for not supporting his resolution. I only say that his proposition was hypercritical. I ask that we may have free port restored before Confederation. We have now the right to legislate for ourselves on this point. Hereafter we shall be at the mercy of the Canadian Parliament at Ottawa. I would make free port one of the conditions of Confederation; but flrsit restore free port. On the Clerk reading the first Avords of the resolution, — Hon. Dr. CARR.VLL^ — I rise to a point, of order. I say that this (juestion has been already decided. CHAIR^LVN — I think the Hon. Member for Nanuiuio is not out of order on that point. The question of free port yesterday related to free port after Confederation. The resolution of the Hon. Member for Nanaimo is in reference to free port antecedent to Confederation. Hon. Mr. DeCOSMOS — The Hon. Member is surely out of order, this Committee having met to consider Confederate resolutions. CILVIRJLVN — I rule that the Hon. Mr. Ring is in order, as his resolution refers to the terms of Confederation now before this Committee. On the Hon. Mr. Ring's motion being but to vote, it was lost. Confederation Debate. 151 Hon. Mr. Hf)LP.ROOK — I have very srreat pleasure in bringing this resolution forward with reference to rhe Indian tribes. Hon. ATTORNEY-CiK.XERAL— I ask the indulgence of the Hon. Member whilst I interpose a few words. f)n a former occasion a very evil impression was introduced in the Indian mind on the occasion of Sir James Douglas' retirement. I ask the Hon. gentleman to be cautious, for Indians do get information of what is going ou. Hon. Mr. HOLBROOK — My motion is to ask for protection for them under the change of Government. The Indians number four to one white man, and they ought to be considered. They should receive protection. Hon. ATTORNEY-(;EXIORAT These are the words that do harm. I would ask the Hon. Magisterial Member for New Westminster to consider. Hon. Mr. HOLRROOK — I say they shall be protected. I speak of Indians of my own neighbourhood on the Lower Fraser. Hon. Mr. R0B80N — I rise to a point of privilege. I think that the warning of the Hon. Attorney-General is necessary. This is the sort of discussion which does harm. Hon. Mr. DeCOSMOS— Don't report it. Hon. Mr. HOLKROOK— I do not view it in that way. I say that the Indians of the Lower Fraser are intelligent, good settlers. I ask that they receive the same protection under Confederation as now. Hon. Mr. HUMPHREYS — I would ask what protection they have now? Hon. Mr. HOLBROOK— They have protection in being allowed to occupy land, and they enjoy equally with white people the protection of the law, and I ask the House to keep them in the same iiosition. Hon. ATTORNEY-GENERAL— If the Indians had no better protectors than the Hon. Magistrate from New Westminster. I should not envy them their protection. The Hon. gentle- man must have forgotten the directions of the Imperial (Government to His Excellency the Governor, in Lord Granville's despatch. Hon. Mr. ROBSON— The Hon. Mr. Holbrook has told you that he speaks in l>ehalf of 40,000 Indians. I s])eak in the name of 65.000. I am inclined to think we should not pass this matter over entirely : we ought to point out our desire that the Indians should be eared for. Now, the Canadian Indian policy has been characterized as good, even by American statesmen. Our own policy is not worth the name. I consider it to be a blot on the Govern- ment. I will, therefore, propose as an amendment the follomng: — " That the Indian policy of Canada shall be extended to this Colony immediately upon Its "admission into the I)o.minlon. and that the necessary agencies and a]ipliances for an elticient "administration of Indian affairs may be at once established.'' The Canadian Government occupies the ])osition of guardians to Indians. They are treated as minors. There is a perfect network of Indian Agents in Canada, and through them the Indians are made ])resents of agricultural implements, seeds, and stock. Now. if we let It go forth to the Indians that their interests are being considered, and that this will be greatly to their advantage. I say. by making the Indians feel all this, there will be less danger of exciting any unpleasant feeling among them. We should set the Indian mind at rest and let them feel that Confederation will be a greater iboon to them than to the white population. Hon. Dr. CARR.VLL — I rise to state my intention of voting against the resolution and the amendment, ^y^' have the full assurance in Lord Granville's despatch that the Indians must be protected. 1 do think the Hon. gentlemen are only heaping up resolutions trusting to overload the whole system. The Hon. Member for New Westminster has affirmed how good the Canadian system is. The goodness of that system is In Itself sufficient to render the resolution needless. I shall, therefore, vote against it and the amendment. Hon. Mr. HOLP.ROOK — I must vote against the amendment. Hon. Mr. HCMPllREYS — 1 disajtprove of what both the Hon. Members stateil. These gentlemen know nothing of the question. I will show you why. Take away the Indians from New Westminster, Lillooet. Lylton. Clinton, and these towns would be nowhere. I say the Indians are not treated fairly by us. and all they want is lair dealing from the white popula- tion. At Lillooet I was told there were upwards of lO.OOO; and .$17,000 gold dust was purcha.sed from Indians. Take away this trade and the towns mus^t sink. I say. send them out to reservations and you destroy trade; and if the Indians are driven out we had all best go too. 152 CONFEDERATIOX DEBATE. Hon. Mr. ROBSOX — The Hon. Member for Lillooet says that the Canadian policy will ruin the country and the Indians. I say, then, to be consistent, he must move an amendment that it shall not apply. To say that the Canadian policy will ruin the. country shows simply ignoranct'. Hon. Mi{. UAItXAlU) — I am convinced that the Hon. Attorney-General is right. Hon. Mk. AI^STON — I must sui)port the Hon. Member for New Westminster. I say there is no Indian i)olicy here, and I am sure that the Canadian policy is good. Hon. Mr. KOKSOX — I was inducml to put an amendnuMit liecause there is a resolution; otherwise I would not have interfered. Hon. ATTORXEY-GEXERAL — My esteemed colleague the Hon. Registrar-General says we have no Indian policy. I say our policy has been, let the Indians alone. [Hon. Mr. Alston — " No, no ! "] Hon. Mr. BARXARI) — The reason I ask for the withdrawal of the resolution is that we cannot keep back from the Indians anything that happens here, and it will have a bad effect. Hon. ATT()RXEY-(;EXERAL — As these words may go forth. I wish to state on behalf of the Government that the care of the Indians will be the first care of the Imperial Government and of the Local Government. Hon. Mr. HUMPHREYS — I do not apprehend any danger from any discussion in this House. Hon. Mr. ALSTOX — I suggest the withdrawal of the resolution. Hon. Dr. CARRALL — I say that the Canadian policy has caused them to grow and prosper. I am at a loss to understand why Honourable Members should be afraid to trust to it. Hon. Dr. HELMCKEX^The Honourable Member for CariI)oo seems to find it difficult to understand my position. I think it right to endeavour to get the best terms we can, and to point out difficulties. It is the duty of every man to do so. I am perfectly willing to sit here and make the hest terms possil)le. When they come back from Canada it will be time enough for me to decide whether or not I shall support Confederation. I am now anti-Confederate, but I may become Confederate if the terms are good. I say if the Indians are to be stuck on Reservations there will be a disturbance. I think. Sir. that it will be well that there should be some opposition. Hon. Mr. ROB.SOX — I wish to state I will withdraw my amendment if the Honourable Member will withdraw his motion. Hon. Mr. HOLBROOK — I cannot do so consistently with my duty. The amendment was withdrawn. The resolution of the Hon. Mr. Holbrook was lost by a vote of 20 to 1. Hon. Mr. ROBSOX moved that an Address be presented to His Excellency the Governor, asking that Canada shall cause a Geological Survey of this Colony to be made, commencing within one year after rnion. He said that a fund of .$100,000 had been set apart by the Canadian (Jovernment for the specific object of carrying out a systematic Geological Survey; that sum to be spread over a period of five years. Canada had the good fortune to possess a very efficient (ieological staff. The Red River country had received the first year's survey under that arrangement, and would probably receive the second this year. British Columbia will possess a greater mineral interest than any other Province, and a thorough Geological Survey will be of the utmost importance to her, and reflexly to Canada, and it was not too much to expect such a survey to follow close ui)on Fnion. Hon. ATTORXEY-GEXERAE— I am sure no one can have the slightest objection to supi)ort a motion for a survey. I assure you it has not escai)ed the notice of the Government, but I regard it as a matter of certainty that British Columbia will come in for her share. I do not object to the consideration of the cpiestiou between this (Government and that of Canada, l)ut I do object to inserting it in the terms. I thhik it may lead to the danger of the Canadian Government saying, when other things come to be considered: "You don't want this, it is not mentioned in the terms ; had you really required this it would scarcely have been omitted in terms so full as these." Hon. Mr. ROBSOX — In i-eply, I say that the Government has inserted a number of special things in the terms; and with reference to the Geological Survey. I believe Xewfoundland got this very matter inserted under the direction of Governor Musgrave. Confederation 1>ebate. 153 Hon. Mr. HT'MPHREYS — I rise to su])i)ort the motion. T cannot under-stand the opposition. [Hon. Attorney-deneral — I dou"t oppose; divide, divide, divide.] I desire to show the necessity for a Geological Survey. We are now eleven years old as a Colony, and nothing is hardly known of the country. We are behind our neighbours of the United States. In California there is a Geological Surveyor, who has to explore and publish the result of his sun^ey. We should have something of the sort here, and, in addition, a record of the number of available acres of land in the Colony. If 25 or 30 farmers arrived here I would undertake to affirm they could not get any information from the Land Office as to where they could settle down. Hon. Dr. HELMCKEX — I .should not like that statement to get abroad uncontradicted. I think these assertions should not be made; they are likely to do much harm. I should like to see the 2.j or oO farmers come; let them go to the mouth of the Fraser. There may be some difficulty in getting land in any part or locality, but it is absurd to bring up this fuss about the Laud Office. The resolution was put to the vote and carried. Hon. Dr. HELMCKEN moved. '" That it is desirable that the Dominion Government shall maintain telegraphic communication with this Colony." Hon. Dr. HELMCKEN — It is absolutely necessary that there should lie some telegraphic communication with the outer world. It is palpable that we must have it with the seat of Government. Hon. Mr. DkCOSMOS — It will be in the recollection of some of the Hon. Members that, some years ago. a question was sent out for discussion from the Secretary of State as to the imyment by Vancouver Island of a subsidy towards the Trans-Continental Line of Telegraph. She could not afford it. Canada has the wire now taken over from the Hudson Bay Company. I shall support the resolution. I do not regard it as a sine qua non, but very essential. I have no doubt Canada will do it. Hon. Mr. ROBSOX— I understood the Hon. Member for Victoria City intended to ask the Canadian Government to maintain the existing telegraph line, which runs through a foreign country. Hon. ATTORNEY-GENERAL— From the general wording of the resolution I am at a loss to know what is meant. I think this is a matter Avhich had best be left out. or we shall be overloading the tenns. If I vote against it. it is because we have fully too much on the terms. Hon. Mr. DeCOSMOS — Why did not the tenns come down to us more perfect? Hon. Dr. CARRALL — I am sorry the resolutions did not come down more perfect, but if they had been ever so perfect Hon. Members would have found fault. I look upon the conduct of Hon. Members in ^bringing forward the additional resolutions as being inimical to Confederation. Hon. Mr. RING — I shall sui^port the resolution. I think our care will enhance our value in the estimation of Canada. Hon. Dr. HELMCKEN — It is admitted that if we are to have union we must have telegraphic communication. Why it was left out I don't know. It must have slipped out. for it was before the Executive. Surely Hon. Members will not have the idea that !?3,000 or $4,000 inserted here will stop Confederation. Hon. Mr. DkCOSMOS— 3,000 or 4.000 dollars? Hon. Dr. HELMCKEN — At jiresent, yes. The only means of conununication is through America. Hon. Mr. DkCOSMOS — I thouglit this was a trans-continental telegraph. I am sorry I said anything about it. The Chairman then put the mot inn. which, (in divisinii. wns Icist. Hon. Mr. DkCOSMOS — When 1 hrst rose to address this House on the question, of Con- federation, I made some jiassing allusions to nation-making. Ndw. Sir, I believe we are engaged in that great work. Our posterity will, I believe, control the northern end of this continent for a thousand generations. We find the American continent in the po.ssession of two nations. The northern p.irt in the possession of the Anglo-Saxon race, and the southern part in the possession of the Sjianish race. Then again we find the Anglo-Saxon race in the ncn-tli divided into two nations, with a great mission before tluMu. The lirst object of the great nation to the south of us may. jierhaps. be said to lie the aciiuisition of territory, and they have a 154 Confederation Debate. united piece of territory from our boundary to ^Mexico. With rej;ai-d to the northern Anglo- Saxon race — to which we belong — we find that they possess all the north excei)t Alaska. If the T'nitetl States have a single and compact piece of territory to the south, we want the same in the north. Look at history as regards the acquisition of territory by nations: Lorraine by France. Poland by Russia, Scotland by England. Texas nnd Alaska by the T'nited States. How- has this been brought about but by a national policy. For hundreds of years it was the policy of France to acquire Lorraine: so it was with Russia and Roland. It has been said that republics cannot have a national policy as nionarchies can; I say that they have a policy with regard to land. And I say that we should have a policy of the same kind. Let us lay down this principle, that we intend to create a great nation, and intending to do so. we should have all territory north of the United States. I have no objection to the T'nited States gaining territory to the south, but I dp object to her coming north or holding Ala.ska. Let us glance at Alaska for one moment. The country is similar to our own. It has coal, fish, and lumber, as we have, and its contiguity to our country ought to induce us to believe that there is a natural alliance between us. We all know how nuich the pui'chase of this piece of territory cost the T'nited States in hard cash. Then its annual cost is nearly two million dollars, or forty millions to supjiort it as a United States Territory for twenty-five years. Then look at the population, a mere nothing: and its revenue, hardly -worth taking into account. It is said by many that America is sick of her bargain, and that Russia sold the United States. I think this is a favourable time to bring it up. Canada can well afford to pay for an extended frontier on the Pacific Coast. If we imrchased Alaska the Americans could still come in to fish and gather furs : so. commercially, there need be no ditficulty. I believe we could get along smoothly ; therefore, I have to move this resolution : — "That Canada shall purchase the Territory of Alaska, if possible." I hope. Sir. in all our relations for the future we shall remain international, not national. Hon. Dr. CARRALL — I rise to support the resolution of the Hon. Mr. DeCosnios. The only objection I can see is. that jierhaps it is a little prematui-e. That Canada will iiltimately ac a road of that description ought to carr.v with it a road toll for its construclioii and maintenance as a matter of principle, even after the original cost is ]taid. Hon. Mr. IH']\n'IIREYS, with the consent of the House, witlidrew Ills resolution in order to make some verbal alterations in it. Hon. Mr. BARNARD — I shall ino\-e tiie same amendment as 1 nioxcd to the former resolution. I will read it : — "That the Government be reiinested to insert in tlie Terms of Ciinfederalion to lie jirojiosed "to Canada some such clause as the following: All i)ublic roads and property of British Colum- " bla at the time of admission to belong to British Cohnnbia, except such public works and 15G CONFEDERATIOX DEBATE. " property as shall properly belong to the Dominion under the ' British North America Act,' and " such portions of the Main Trunk Ijine through British Columbia, or other roads then con- '• structed, as may be necessary to complete a continuous line of coach road from a point at or "below Yale to a point at the foot of the eastern slope of the liocky Mountains, and that the " same shall be free of toll of any kind whatever." Hon. Mr. IIIXG — I agree that some road tolls ought to be kept up. Hon. Mr. HI'MrHKEYS — My only object is to bring this matter before the Executive. I cannot agree with the Hon. Meiiiber for Yale. I have not opposed any proposition of any man from personal motives. Hon. Mr. BAKNAIII) — I oppose the motion of the Hon. Member for Lillooot. I think it does not meet the question. Hon. ATTOKXEY-GKNEKAL — The objection to the whole matter in shape of a resolution is that by talking of road tolls we raise expectations we cannot probably fulfil. I had hoped Hon. members would not press the subject. I assure the Hon. gentlemen that the petitions sent up have been the subject of earnest consideration. I attacli weight to what the Hon. Member for Yale says in this House, and regret that such a feeling should go abroad. Hon. Dr. CARRALIi — I. as Member for Cariboo, should say something upon this matter. I have some doubt upon it. I would say this much, as a member of the Government, that is, that many of the resolutions brought up here and vetoed will probably form the subject of negotiation with the delegation in settling the terms. They will be a sort of substratum. I regard the taxing of those who use the roads as the proper means for the keeping up the road, and. furthermore. I fear to overload the terms. Hon. Mr. HOLBROOK — For such roads as were made on the petition of the people tolls are justifial)le. but tolls should not be kept up after the debt is defx'ayed. Xo doubt when this road comes under the rule of Canada she will construct turnpikes. Our road tolls are too high. Hon. Mr. R(;)BS0X^ — I regret the absence of the Hon. Chief Commissioner. I think that he has an impression that some such resolution as this is necessary. I regret that the matter was brought up to-day at all. Hon. ATTORXEY-GEXEIt.\L — I proposed that the matter should be left open until Monday. Hon. .Mr. ItOBSOX— Then let it be left open. Hon. ATTORXEY-GEXERAI., — I have pointed out the Hon. Chief Commissioner's objections. He says that the road can be better kept up by the Local than the Dominion Government. I regret the absence of the Hon. Chief Commissioner. He did not state to me any certain Impres- sion, but I am sure he would have been glad to have joined in the discussion. It has, I have no objection to state, been discussed in Executive Council, and this discu.ssion will do no good. I must ()pi)ose such resolutions going up to the Governor, for it may create expectations which, when the terms go to the polls, cannot be fulfilled. Hon. Mr. DeCOSMOS — I have no doubt when the terms come to the polls there will be one howl of discontent at the financial part of them from Cariboo to Xew AYestminster. I wish to see road tolls free, but I do not wish to see the Dominion Government taking charge of our local interests, such as tolls. With regard to terms. I say that the financial terms will kill Con- federation when It conies to the polls. The people from Cariboo to Xew Westminster want these road tolls abolished. Hon. Mr. R0B80X — The Attorne.v-General suggests, on behalf of the Hon. Chief Commis- sioner, that we shall lose the revenue; but this is a gain if we get free from the maintenance of the roads. The Government should consider themselves part of the people, and endeavour to relax taxes. Another objection is, that under this arrangement roads would not be kept in repair so well as at present. I sa.v, under Confederation, the Chief Commissioner of Lands and Works would have control of roads. The Dominion Government Is less likely to be penuri- ous than a Local Government. The Hon. Chief Commissioner spoke to me after making that objection, and my distinct impression Is that the Hon. gentleman would support some such proposition as this. We ask what is in perfect harmony with reason. We may just as Avell ask Canada to do the whole thing, and to maintain the whole road. Hon. Mr. RIXG — It astonishes me that Hon. gentlemen are connecting revenue with these tolls. It can only be justifiable to keep tolls for the i-epalr of roads. Hon. Dr. HELMCKEX — I am on the horns of a dilemma. If I vote for road tolls being taxable, I shall be told I want to make the terms too heavy; if against them, I should be told I am against Confederation. Confederation' Derate. 157 Hon. Mr. WALKEM — Sir, I have made few speeches during this dehate, but this is u question on which I must aslv leave to say a few words. Session after Session the question has been brought down. We have had always a large "S'ictoria element, and this question has. unfortunately, always taken a Victoria and Mainland issue. I have studied this matter care- fully. With I'egard to the Acts themselves the.v are very strong ; they commence with preambles as to construction, maintenance, and repair. The toll was not mentioned as to continue merely until the debt was extinguished, therefore I think the vote should be taken on another view. The benefits accrue equally to Victoria and the Upper Country ; probably the farmer gets the lion's share; I know the T'i)per Country pretty well; formei'ly the miner used nothing outside of bacon and flour. This should not lie made an Island and Mainland (piestion. Hon. Dr. HELMCKEN— I do not regard the subject as a joke. We have paid $60.00(» for roads on Vancouver Island — roads not one-twentieth the length of those on the Mainland. Victoi'ia gets more Ivicks than halfpence. Victoria payg the greater part of the tolls. I belong to a company who pay a large proportion. What do they propose in place of a road toll? Some one must pay it. Thirty thousand dollars per annum is required to keep roads in repair. I say Victoria and Vancouver Island are more concerned with what is for the good of the Colony, generall.v, than an.v part of the Mainland. Hon. Mr. HrMPHREYS — I rise to bear testimony to the fairness of the Hon. Members for Vancouver Island in whatever concerns the Mainland. I have always seen a desire on the part of Vancouver Island Members to legislate for the whole, and not for a part, of the Colony. I am as tired of this bickering as any Member of the Mainland. I consider it our duty to be more united. If the Hon. Members for New Westminster and Yale would talk less about injustice to the Mainland it would be better. I regret the action of the Hon. ^Member for Yale; it is factious. Hon. Mr. BAKXARD — Vancouver Island has always made practical jokes of any questions from the Mainland. Hon. Mr. DeCOSMOS rose to order. Hon. Mr. BARNARD^ — I referred to the Hon. gentleman for Victoria City. There are no road tolls on Vancouver Island. [Yes, a road tax! — Hon. Dr. Helmckeu.] As soon as the roads are paid for the people of the Mainland will, to a man, refuse to pay any more road tolls. Every item has been used as a threat against Confederation. I do not offer any such threat. I believe the Upper Country would accept Confederation on the terms proposed ; but if the Government expect that they will be able to collect this $60,000 from the population of the Upper Country they are mistaken. Hon. Mr. DeCOSMOS — The Hon. Member for Y'ale is unjust to Vancouver Islanders. The whole of this Colony is paying large sums of money for interest on debt on i-oads. Hon. Mr. BARNARD— I did not say what I did willi reference to Vancouver Island Members without consideration. Hon. Mr. ROBSON — I hope that Government Members, in view of the absence of ihe Hon. Chief Commissioner, will vote so as to allow this resolution to go f(n-\vard. Hon. ATTORNEY-GENERAL — I must express a contrary hope. The amendment of Hon. Mr. Barnard was carried. The Committee rose and reported the resolutions conqilete. Council resumed, and the resolutions ))assed in Connnittee were adopted, except those witli regard to the purchase of Alaska and the State of Maine. Wednesday, (trir Ariui., INTO. The Hon. Attorney-<;('n('r;il. in tlic absence of tlie lion. Colonial Secretary. Presiding Member. On motion, tiie House resolved itself into Coiuniitlee of the Whole, to take info conslderaf ion_^ the Message of His Excellency the (iovernor resjiecting the jirovision to be made for the sending of Delegates to Ottawa. Hon. Mr. Ball in the Chair. 158 Confederation Debate. Hon. COLLECTOR OF CUSTOMS— Sir. I rise to move.— " That suitable provLsioii he made by this House for the payiiieiit of the expenses of the " D('le>rates to he sent from this Coh)ny to Ottawa to ne.L'otiatc the trniis of the Confederation "of this Colony with the Dominion of Canada." This has been one of the iireliminary steps taken by the other Colonies before going into Confederation. If it has-been necessary in other cases. It is certainly necessary for us. The exi)euse is comparatively small, probably from $2,.~>00 to $3,000. and the Governor has preferred to bring the matter before the Council now, instead of putting it into a supplementary estimate next session. Hon. Mk. lilXG — Sir. I beg to inquire why these resolutions cannot be transmitted by post. I do not see wliy the Colony should be put to the expense of conveying the message; there is postal counnunication with Canada, and sufiicient means of conveying to the Canadian Govern- ment what we have agreed upon. There can be no necessity to send Hon. Mend)ers to Ottawa. The fac-t of our doing so would lead to the presumption that Confederation is agreed upon. I differ from that. I say the people want to have the terms before them. Let us first see whether the Colony assents to Confederation in the abstract. Why shouhl we send three or four Hon. and learned gentlemen — learned, no doubt. Why. I say. should we have the Colony put to .so murh ('xi)ense when it is in a state of i)overty and bankruptcy. I Xo, no.] I say. dispatch the terms in the ordinary way by post. Hon. Mr. Ii('>BSON — I hope, Sir. it will not he necessary to tight our battles over again. This House has. in the name of the Colony — [No, no. from Hons. Iting and Drake.] Perhaps it will suit some Hon. Members better to say a majority of this House. [Xo. no.] Perhaps certain Hon. :Members will liave the decency to be quiet until their turn comes to speak. A majority of this House — an overwhelming majority — has decided upon terms. We shall get the consent of the Canadian Government to these, or modified, conditions, and then submit them to the people. That is the only way. If we were, as proposed by the Hon. Member for Nanaimo. to ask the people whether they wanted Confederation, what would they say? [Mr. Ring — They would say "Xol"] They would say most emphatically, "Yes. on terms." They have said so for years. The Governor has adopted the usual coui-se. These resolutions will go to the Canadian (ioverimient jind come back, perhaps, modified, and the people will then be asked if they will have Confederation on these terms. The terms are now ])roposed to be sent to Ottawa. I cannot agree with the Hon. Member for Nanaimo that it would be cheaper to send them by post. Tiie first outlay might be smaller, but it might cause delay, and. in my opinion. British Columl)ia cannot afford delay. The telegraph might do. Init it would cost more. It ought to be by delegation. I think the House is entitled to know who are to go. I presume the Govern- ment will he prepared to give us the names. I, for one, would be unprepared to vote a sum of $2,ij00, or more likely. .$5,000, if I thought the Governor would send Delegates who would not be acceptable to the people. I say that the people ought to be represented, and that particular Members who will fairly rei)resent the people on the Responsible Gov<>rnment question ought to go. I say that if the Delegates are silent on Responsible (iovernment the Cabinet at Ottawa will raise it. If the Delegates say that British Columbia is not prepared for it. that it has been voted down, the Cabinet will say. they have reason to l)elieve that the ])eople. or a large proportion of them, want it. and that they have had enough of discontent. I say. that althouglL Responsible Government is not. strictly speaking, a condition, it underlies and permeates tlie whole question. Hon. COLLECTOR OF CUSTOMS — Xothing would be easier than to forward the resolutions by post to Canada. This has probably been done already ; l)ut on every one of the resolutions, as you all know, tliere are numerous points requiring explanations, and to make these effective the presence at Ottawa of Delegates on our part, understanding the ([uestiou and authorized to act for us, would ai)pear to be indispensable. I am inclined to think that the names of the Delegates are pretty well known, but I have no authority to mention them here. The Governor has chosen them on his own res])onsibility, and he does not ask the Council to share that respon- sibility. For what purpose should the names be given? Does the Council wish to canvass the merits of each individual? What those gentlemen will say on the subject of Responsible Govern- ment I am not prepared to tell you: but I tell you this, that on that subject and on every other they will act with fairness and ability, with no discredit to themselves and with no discredit to 71S. I am ready at any rate to trust them so far as that. I hope this Council will trust them, as the Governor has shown himself ready to trust them. Every year there are expenses that Confederation Debate. 159 cannot be provided for except in tlie Supplementary Estimates. This will donl)tless be one of them. There will be no objectionable special tax. that I know of. proposed on this account. If there is. it will lie time enough to oppose it when it comes. In the meantime you are asked simply to authorize the expenditure of a small sum of money for an object of intinite importance. Hon. Mr. HT'MI'HKEYS — There is a mighty curious dust kicked up by great opposites when they meet. I think we shall see some of these gentlemen hoisted on their own petards. I have a pretty good idea who the gentlemen are, and I do not think they represent the people, especially in the matter of Responsible Government. I believe the Governor will act fairly and honourably, but I think he will not select men who will be acceptable to the people. My opinion is. that the Hon. Chief Connnissioner. the Hon. Member for Victoria, and the Hon. Attorney-General do not represent the people. I'opular members will be untrue to themselves. Hon. Mr. DEWDNEY — The Hon. Member has had his guess. I do not desire to mention names. I would merely suggest that His Excellencj' be reijuested to select one of the Delegates from the Mainland. Hon. CHIIOF COMMLSSIOXEi: — My views on Responsible Government have been so often expressed that there is no occasion to refer to them again, but I am astonished that after Hon. Members have told us that the people are a unit in favour of Responsible GoA-ernment. they should be afraid to trust it to the people, or to the Council, which His Excellency has told you he will form after this Session. Why, tlien, are Hon. Members so desirous to weight down the terms? Are they afraid that the people will not be so unanimous at the polls in favour of Responsible Government? His Excellency has told you that, if allowed by Her Majesty's Government, he proposes to form a Council which will be representative. I. for one. have no doubt about the permission. The question will then be left to that Council. Why are Hon. Members afraid to leave this question to the representatives of the people? Hon. Mr. HUMPHREYS — I will answer the Hon. Chief Commissioner : we are not afraid of putting the question before the people, but I am afraid that memljers of that delegation will misrepresent the opinions of the people to the Canadian Government ; I fear the people will not be represented. Hon. Mr. DRAKE — Mr. Chairman, I intend to oppose the resolution proposed by the Hon. Collector of Customs. I think that if Hon. Members examine this message in connection with His Excellency's speech, it is apparent that the resolutions were sent down complete. This House was not allowed to alter them. The recommendations of Hon. Members were voted down. I think it would be better to send the resolutions by post as tlie resolutions of Government : they are not the resolutions of this Committee. Hon. CHIEF COMMISSIONIOR— They are the resolutions of this House. Hon. Mr. DRAKE— No ; only of the official majorit.v. The expense is unnecessary; it is one which will be incurred to enforce the viev.'s of Government. His Excellency asks that he should be authorized to expend a sum of money for this si»ecial pur])ose. A special tax is asked for. If we accede to this message we are assuming the resi)onsibility. I would like to ask this question: Is the Delegation to take powers from this House or from the Government? Hon. CHIEF COMMISSIONER— I must reply without delay to one proposition. I would like the Hon. gentleman to jioint out any one examjile or suggestion which, if defeated, was not defeated by a majority of. so-called, popular iiiciubers. with the ex<-eption of Resitonsible Government, in which there was a majority of, so-called, reitresentative members. Tli(> Hon. gentleman's remarks fall to the ground. Hon. Mr. HI'MPIIItEYS — The mistake has been made at that end of the table. I think we are in duty bound to send Delegates and raise the money. :My only objection is. that the names are withheld. I cannot understand why Hon. Members should vote against this message. I believe we are all agreed that Delegates should go, but if names are not sent down. I nnist vote against it. Hon. Mr. DeCOSMOS — Mr. Chairnian. T scarcely expected a discussion upon Ihi-s i)oint : I should have supposed that this House would have voted the money at once. The (inestion is whether this Delegation will be representative or not. I do not intend to oll'er any factions opposition. I am satisfied that the ]»eople will take means to send a jieople's delegation. Hon. Mr. R.VRX.VRD — C\n-rent rcixnt names the gentlemcMi. The object of sending by delegates is that the terms may be nxxlilied if necessary. If unsatisfactory, will not the ])eople have a right to say: "How could we exp(>ct anything better." llci-e ari' two members recent IGO Confederation Debate. converts, and one a decided opponent. How can a popular member go to his constituents after voting this mone.v? The people are in earnest in this matter. I stand on the floor of this House a Government contractor, and likely to supjiort the Government. Init so long as I gave a straight vote on Confederation my constituents cared not about anything else. On the Mainland we have been firm on Confederation all through, and the Mainland is ignored. The two Hon. gentlemen at the head of this table rei)resent the Island, and the other Hon. Member represents the Island. The Mainland is not going to be satisfied, particularly when the Hon. senior Member for Victoria, who has consistently opposed, and will oppose. Confederation, is to be one of the Delegation. For the first time in twenty years the Hon. gentleman leaves this Island. He knows liothing about the interior of the country. Hon. Mk. DliAKE — The Hon. Chief Commissioner stated that the whole of the recom- mendations were carried, except one, by the majority of the pominion Government shall supply an ■ efficient and regular fortnightly Steam Com- munication between Victoria and San Francisco by Steamers adapted and giving facilities for the conveyance of passengers and cargo. S. Inasmuch as no real Union can subsist between this Colony and Canada without the speedy establishment of communication across the Rocky Mountains by Coach Road and Rail- That the word "and," between "construct" way, the Dominion shall, within three years and "open," be erased, and words "and main- from the date of I'nion, construct and open for tain " be inserted after " traffic." traffic such Coach Road, from some point on the That this Section be altered so that the sec- line of the Main Trunk Road of this Colony to tion of the Main Trunk Road between Yale Fort Garry, of similar character to the said Main and New Westminster may be included in the Trunk Road ; and shall further engage to use Coach Road which the Dominion (iovernmeut all means in her power to complete such Rail- is to be asked to construct within three years way communication at the earliest practicable from the date of Union. date, and that Surveys to determine the proper line for such Railway shall be at once com- menced; and that a sum of not less than one million dollars shall be expended in every year, from and after three years from the date of Union, in actually constructing the initial sec- tions of such Railway from the Seaboard of British Columbia, to connect with the Raihv.iy system of Canada. i). The l>()inini(in shall erect and maintain, at Victoria, a Marine Hospital, and a Lunatic Asylum, either attached to the Hospital or se])arate, as may be considered most convenient. The Dominion shall also erect and maintain a Penitentiary.